Podcasts about ryan you

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy, hosted by Drs. James Hawkins, Ph.D., LPC, and Ryan Rana, Ph.D., LMFT, LPC—Renowned ICEEFT Therapists, Supervisors, and Trainers. We're thrilled to have you with us. We believe this podcast, a valuable resource, will empower you to push the boundaries in your work, helping individuals and couples connect more deeply with themselves and each other. Overview and Themes: This podcast episode is the finale of the "Resistant Client Series," focusing on how therapists can transform client resistance into opportunities for deeper emotional connection and healing. Main Themes: 1. Understanding Resistance as Protective Behavior - Resistance isn't a problem to eliminate, but a weight-bearing mechanism protecting relationship dynamics - Every resistant stance has an attachment significance - Clients aren't being difficult; they're managing deep emotional fears 2. Theory of Change in EFT - Replace resistance with corrective emotional experiences - Help clients make clear emotional signals - Enable partners to provide compassionate comfort - Support clients in truly receiving and embodying that comfort 3. Clinical Wisdom - Don't lose hope with challenging clients - Trust the attachment map - Be intentional about vulnerability in therapeutic interventions - Focus on helping clients understand their own emotional experiences Closing Summary: In the intricate dance of human connection, resistance is not an obstacle, but a doorway. Each defensive stance whispers a profound story of fear, longing, and the desperate hope to be truly seen and loved. As therapists, our sacred work is not to dismantle these protective walls, but to gently illuminate the tender heart beating behind them. We are architects of hope, helping couples rediscover the language of vulnerability, transforming cycles of pain into rhythms of connection. Every moment of resistance carries within it the seed of healing - waiting to be understood, honored, and transformed. Keep pushing the leading edge. Keep believing in love's remarkable capacity to heal. Upcoming events, if you would like to train with James or Ryan… You can do a joint Core Skills (Colorado) with Lisa J. Palmer-Olsen & Dr. James Hawkins. Core Skills Modules 1 and 2 will be held October 8-10, 2025, and Core Skills Modules 3 and 4 will be held January 7-9, 2026. You can register at https://courses.efft.org/courses/2025-core-skills-colorado. October 15-18, 2025, you can do an Externship with James in beautiful Bend, Oregon. You can register at https://www.counseloregon.com. You can train with Ryan, as well as George Faller, doing a live and some time with James, at the annual Arkansas EFT Center externship. July 29-August 1, 2025, in person, in Fayetteville, Arkansas. https://www.arkansaseft.com/events/externship We would like to invite everyone to come hang out and learn with the SV team at the first-ever SV Focus Lab. This is an advanced, EFCT training intending to push the edge with a focus on nuance in application, illuminating EFT and Sue's incredible model.” You can learn more and register by going to https://www.svfocuslab.com. Leading edge listeners who register before July 1 with the code svfocuslab.com/leadingedge get a 10% discount. To support our mission and help us continue producing impactful content, your financial contributions via Venmo (@leftpodcast) are greatly appreciated. They play a significant role in keeping this valuable resource available and are a testament to your commitment to our cause. We aim to equip therapists with practical tools and encouragement for addressing relational distress. We're also excited to be part of the team behind Success in Vulnerability (SV)—your premier online education platform. SV offers innovative instruction to enhance your therapeutic effectiveness through exclusive modules and in-depth clinical examples.  Stay connected with us: Facebook: Follow our page @pushtheleadingedge Ryan: Follow @ryanranaprofessionaltraining on Facebook and visit his website James: Follow @dochawklpc on Facebook and Instagram, or visit his website at dochawklpc.com George Faller: Visit georgefaller.com If you like the concepts discussed on this podcast you can explore our online training program, Success in Vulnerability (SV). Thank you for being part of our community. Let's push the leading edge together!

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy, hosted by Drs. James Hawkins, Ph.D., LPC, and Ryan Rana, Ph.D., LMFT, LPC—Renowned ICEEFT Therapists, Supervisors, and Trainers. We're thrilled to have you with us. We believe this podcast, a valuable resource, will empower you to push the boundaries in your work, helping individuals and couples connect more deeply with themselves and each other. Key Highlights: Counterintuitive approach: When clients become reactive, therapists should move towards the emotion, not away from it Reactivity is a signal of underlying fear and pain that needs acknowledgment The goal is to help clients organize and understand their emotional experience Main Points: Understanding Reactivity Reactivity indicates a need for emotional organization Therapists must first ground themselves to stay present Look for cues like voice changes, slower pace, and "yes" signaling Therapeutic Approach Move towards the reactivity with curiosity and empathy Co-create meaning with the client Help clients understand the attachment function of their emotional response Trust and Corrective Experience Develop trust that vulnerable emotions exist beneath resistance Be willing to take vulnerable steps before seeing the full result Learn through practice and experiencing successful interventions Practical Strategies: Validate the function of protective behaviors Slow down the process Become an "attachment interpreter" Closing Insight: EFT aims to help clients find flexibility in their reactive moments and connect with each other, not eliminate reactivity. Upcoming events, if you would like to train with James or Ryan… You can do a joint Core Skills (Colorado) with Lisa J. Palmer-Olsen & Dr. James Hawkins. Core Skills Modules 1 and 2 will be held October 8-10, 2025, and Core Skills Modules 3 and 4 will be held January 7-9, 2026. You can register at https://courses.efft.org/courses/2025-core-skills-colorado. October 15-18, 2025, you can do an Externship with James in beautiful Bend, Oregon. You can register at https://www.counseloregon.com. You can train with Ryan, as well as George Faller, doing a live and some time with James, at the annual Arkansas EFT Center externship. July 29-August 1, 2025, in person, in Fayetteville, Arkansas. https://www.arkansaseft.com/events/externship We would like to invite everyone to come hang out and learn with the SV team at the first-ever SV Focus Lab. This is an advanced, EFCT training intending to push the edge with a focus on nuance in application, illuminating EFT and Sue's incredible model.” You can learn more and register by going to https://www.svfocuslab.com. Leading edge listeners who register before July 1 with the code svfocuslab.com/leadingedge get a 10% discount. To support our mission and help us continue producing impactful content, your financial contributions via Venmo (@leftpodcast) are greatly appreciated. They play a significant role in keeping this valuable resource available and are a testament to your commitment to our cause. We aim to equip therapists with practical tools and encouragement for addressing relational distress. We're also excited to be part of the team behind Success in Vulnerability (SV)—your premier online education platform. SV offers innovative instruction to enhance your therapeutic effectiveness through exclusive modules and in-depth clinical examples.  Stay connected with us: Facebook: Follow our page @pushtheleadingedge Ryan: Follow @ryanranaprofessionaltraining on Facebook and visit his website James: Follow @dochawklpc on Facebook and Instagram, or visit his website at dochawklpc.com George Faller: Visit georgefaller.com If you like the concepts discussed on this podcast you can explore our online training program, Success in Vulnerability (SV). Thank you for being part of our community. Let's push the leading edge together!

Ryan Wilson completed a long and challenging career in the Australian Army spanning 18 years, primarily in the Special Air Service Regiment, where he gained extensive experience leading teams in highly complex and uncertain environments on multiple combat tours.   During his time in the special forces, Ryan experienced many life-changing and challenging situations that sparked his interest in resilience, high performance, and operational management.  Following his military career, Ryan commenced his journey into the whiskey industry, starting in 2020 as Business Development Manager for Whipper Snapper Distillery, and is now the General Manager overseeing the entire operation.      Ryan is active in the veteran support space. He is on the Board of Directors for the Veteran employment non-profit Working Spirit and is the WA manager for the veteran charity Wandering Warriors.  He has recently founded a new charity called Working Paws Australia, which aims to raise money and provide financial assistance for medical bills and other areas associated with retired military and police working dogs.  He holds a BA in Politics and International Studies from Murdoch University and a Master's in Business Administration (MBA) from the University of Western Australia.  He is also a graduate of the Australian Institute of Company Directors (AICD) Course.  Ryan spent much of his career living and working throughout Southeast Asia, particularly Indonesia, and is fluent in Bahasa Indonesian.   More about Ryan:You can learn more about Ryan and the charities he's involved with at his Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ryanwilson_1984/Timestamps:00:00:22 Introduction to Ryan Wilson00:01:55 Career Overview00:04:16 SAS Selection: What makes people quit?00:07:32 Mental Preparation: How to Keep Going and Stay Out of Your Head00:10:40 Keeping An Internal Compass 00:13:40 Segmenting: A Thousand Manageable Steps, One At A Time00:15:56 Stories of Selection & Low Points00:19:13 What Are My Odds of Making It00:22:20 End of Selection: Three Sentences and You're On Your Way Home00:24:08 The Sword in the Stone Mentality00:27:21 Selection Starts When the Stress Sets In00:28:46 Sponsor Note: Mindfulness in Training App00:31:32 Rationale for Snapping & Trainability 00:36:04 The Ability to Deal With Failure & Setbacks00:39:30 How Powerful Nutrition Is & Can Be00:43:23 Foundation for Metabolic Flexibility00:45:32 Team Dynamics in Selection: Knowing When to Follow & When to Lead00:47:21 Building Trust and Rapport With a New Group00:50:32 Career Progression After Selection00:54:06 Work/Life Balance Compared to the Army00:58:23 Best and Worst Advice Ever Received01:01:39 Outro

As entrepreneurs, we have the ability to make a difference in the world and in those we serve by aligning our  In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Ryan Pineda, real estate investing expert and author of The Wealthy Way to talk about real estate, business, and faith. You'll Learn [01:34] Getting Started in Entrepreneurship [08:07] Faith and Business [17:16] Having Impact as a Business Owner [29:50] You are What You Consume [45:35] Don't Wait to do the Work Tweetables  ”There's no more efficient business model for positively changing the world than business.” “ When you start becoming process-driven more than results-driven, your life changes.” “ We should expect things to be hard and worth it.” “ You are what you consume in all areas of life.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: There's so much wisdom in there and if you can at least just be willing to extract wisdom wherever you can find it, then you're not an idiot And so at least start there, everybody listening, just look for wisdom, be a seeker of wisdom and look for the things that are better and higher.  [00:00:16] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:34] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:54] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. [00:01:13] Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:17] So my guest today, I am honored to hang out with Ryan Pineda. Ryan, welcome to the show.  [00:01:22] Ryan: Hey, happy to be here. Good to see you.  [00:01:25] Jason: So Ryan, I'd love to kick things off by getting into your background of how you kind of got into this journey of entrepreneurship. But before we do that, your company's called Wealthy Investor, right? [00:01:36] Yep. And you've worked with a lot of real estate investors. My target audience listening to the show are usually the vehicle or the support mechanism for a lot of investors. I think the audience would be interested in hearing a little bit about how you got kind of started into entrepreneurism first of all, and then maybe how you got into real estate. [00:01:57] Ryan: Yeah, I'll give the quick story. You know, I never wanted to get into real estate or entrepreneurship. I was a baseball player growing up and that was all I wanted to do. I was grateful and thankful that I was able to actually do that. You know, I ended up getting drafted by the Oakland A's and got to play professional baseball for eight years. [00:02:15] But, I didn't get paid much in the minor leagues. I never made it to the bigs. I was making 1200 bucks a month. And so I had to make money elsewhere. And that's what led me in entrepreneurship. You know, I got my real estate license in 2010. Yep. And, you know, so I've been in the game for about 15 years now. [00:02:32] And, you know, I've seen a lot. You know, started as an agent and hated it. My mom was actually a property manager. I didn't tell you that. So, I watched her do that for a little bit while being an agent as well. So she was an agent herself, but you know, watching her, I had no desire to be an agent or do anything in real estate because when I got in in 2010, she had just lost everything. [00:02:53] You know, and she's like, you need to get like a safe job. You need to get something that has a salary and a pension. That was literally her advice. Well, and I was like, yeah, maybe, I don't know. Hopefully this baseball thing works out. But while I'm playing, I can't get that. So I'm going to have to do something. [00:03:11] So anyways, I become an agent. Hate it. Do it for a few years. Ended up getting into other weird things. I started flipping couches. I was a substitute teacher. I was just doing anything that could make a buck on the side. And then eventually that led to flipping houses in 2015. [00:03:27] And that was when I, for the first time, started to make some real money. And yeah, I mean, by my third year, I had made, you know, I became a millionaire after year three, flipping houses. And it was just like, wow, this is crazy. And since then I flipped, you know, I think almost 600, 700 homes. And. You know, I've bought rentals. [00:03:47] I own apartment buildings through our syndication. You know, we've coached people, like you said, with wealthy investor. We've coached thousands of students and held really big events. You know, I've started another subsidiary businesses for real estate investors. You know, we have a lead generation company called Lead Kitchen where we help them get leads for sellers. [00:04:05] We have, you know, I had a tax firm, you know, I've kind of done almost everything you can imagine in the real estate world, but  [00:04:10] Jason: Yeah, that's a lot. So I'm curious you said your mom was a property manager and she gave you the advice It was kind of like maybe steer clear of this stuff. [00:04:19] What does your mom think now about everything?  [00:04:22] Ryan: You know what? She's still always hyper cautious so, you know, I retired my parents in 2019 I bought him a house bought him all the cars and everything and my dad actually started working for me in 2018 as a project manager. So he would oversee a lot of our flips and even to this day, he still does it. [00:04:42] Not cause he has to, because he's just like, well, if you're going to, you know, pay for us, I might as well like earn it, you know, and he just wants to support and whatever. So, You know, my dad understands the game. My mom though, obviously she's seen the results, but she's still always hyper cautious. [00:04:57] And so, she doesn't think I need to get a job now, but she does think a lot of times the big risk I take, I shouldn't be taking.  [00:05:05] Jason: Yeah. Looking back, when do you see in hindsight that there were clues that you were maybe destined to be an entrepreneur? Maybe even doing baseball. [00:05:16] Ryan: Yeah. I look back in hindsight, even as a kid and I was always buying and selling and thinking about money. Like I started an eBay account when I was like 12 years old. I remember. You know, buying stuff and bidding on stuff and getting good deals on eBay. And then I remember I was selling Pokemon cards and Yu Gi Oh cards, you know, in middle school and stuff. [00:05:37] And it's just like, You know, the signs were always there. And then even I was always attracted to just making money myself. So like I was good at poker, you know, I won poker tournaments and I played online and I made money that way. And so in hindsight, it was always very clear. I was never going to have a job. [00:05:53] Really the only true job I ever had was playing baseball. And even then it's like, yeah, there's not really a way to be an entrepreneur. I mean, you kind of are you're in charge of your career and how well you want to do and like how well you want to train and. And so, yeah, even in that sense, baseball is kind of in that same vein. [00:06:12] Jason: Yeah. So I'm sure even to get as far as you got in baseball, there was a lot of drive involved and a lot of effort involved, even though there wasn't a lot of pay, it sounds like.  [00:06:25] Ryan: Yeah, I think yeah, for me, like, I had to learn how to like win, you know, at the end of the day, losing is not an option, right? [00:06:33] It's a zero sum game in sports. One person wins, one person loses, you know, for the pitcher to succeed, you must get out. And so, dude, I'm like, I'm going to just figure out how to win. I'm competitive. And so I think competitiveness has always fueled me. It's different in business now because I understand the games that we play. [00:06:52] It's like, you know, We both can have good podcasts. We both can win in business. You don't need to lose for me to win. But that doesn't mean I'm still not competitive.  [00:07:00] Jason: Sure. Yeah. I'm sure in the different industries that you have businesses that you focus on, you have competitors and you probably want to win. [00:07:09] Ryan: I don't want to lose.  [00:07:11] Jason: Right. I want to be the best. I think that's true of most entrepreneurs. There's this drive or, this bite to win. You know, I remember early on, I think some of my first clues as to that I might be an entrepreneur is I was into music. And I remember in college, I was going around door to door pre selling CDs so that I could fund doing an album. [00:07:31] And yet I still at the time was thinking I've got to get a degree to get some sort of job to rise the corporate ladder. And I had no clue that entrepreneurism was like a path at the time. So it's interesting and Entrepreneurism sort of found me In that I needed a way to not be doing a nine to five job to be able to take care of kids because I ended up as a single father right and divorced and like went through all this stuff. [00:07:57] And so I was like, all right, what can I do? And so I sometimes joke that my kids turned me into an entrepreneur. It was just what needed to be done, but there were always clues before, right? So you know, one of the things that you've talked about a lot, I've noticed on your social media, on podcasts is you're very faith forward. [00:08:15] Like you're very comfortable talking about your faith and like the things that kind of motivate you and drive you. And you're involved in some charitable sort of, you know, businesses or charitable entities or organizations as well. How does faith sort of play into all of this when it comes to business for you? [00:08:33] Ryan: Well, you know, I grew up in the church. So, you know, for those who don't know, I'm a Christian. And you know, I grew up in a baptist church and you know, faith was always a part of my life. And I felt like for the most part, I did things the way God wanted me to. You know, I didn't really rebel and go crazy in college, got married young. [00:08:51] You know, I've always tried to put God first and everything. And You know, I think in the last couple of years, God was just pushing me to get even more deep in faith and more bold and to really embrace the spiritual and supernatural side of faith because I was always a very theologically sound person. [00:09:11] And you know, I've read the Bible many times, and, you know, I spent a lot of time, like I said, in church and serving and other things, but you just realize in everything in life, especially with faith, that there's so little that you actually know, and you know, as I've grown in my faith, I've learned to hear from God better. [00:09:29] And tune out all the noise of everything else going out in life, right? I mean, there's so many distractions in life. There's your business, there's social media, there's your kids, your family, you know, the recession, the election, it's like distraction. I think that's Satan's biggest, yeah, that's Satan's biggest tool is to distract you from the truth. [00:09:49] And so the truth was God wanted me to get more bold and to really use my platform for him, not for me. And, you know, with that, I became convicted to just really go all in because I mean, one thing I guess people would notice about my career too, is like, there's no really lukewarmness, you know, when I go all in on something. [00:10:09] It's like, yo, if we're going to throw an event, it's going to be crazy. If we're going to start this, we're going on a blitz. And so I said, you know what, we need to start something for Christian entrepreneurs and Christian business people. And so, you know, I created Wealthy Kingdom last year and you know, we're a nonprofit and, you know, we have three goals. [00:10:27] Well, I shouldn't say three goals. The one goal, the mission is to bring the kingdom to the marketplace. And what I mean by that is so many entrepreneurs just think it's the church's job to, you know, go get people saved and to go disciple people. And it's like, yeah, you know, just invite them to church on Sunday. [00:10:44] It's like, no, our job, every Christian has this goal or mission. You know, Jesus tells us right before he left, he said that the mission here is you need to go make disciples of all nations. We all have that same mission. And it's like, it's not to make the most money. It's not to do the thing that you love. [00:11:05] Like, Jesus never said do the thing that you love. Like that's another big lie that, you know, people have been told.  [00:11:12] Jason: Jesus didn't even do what he loved necessarily. Like to a degree, he said, I don't even do my own will. Yeah. He does the will of him who sent me. Right. He's like, I'm not even doing my own will. [00:11:22] And so if that's a model, then maybe it's not about just selfishly doing our own will all the time.  [00:11:29] Ryan: Absolutely should not. Our will, as we grow should be more aligned with the father's will. And that's what sanctification is. So anyways, to, to long story short. God called us to go be disciples where we're at. [00:11:42] We don't like, we need to go make disciples of all nations right now. That's in our job, in our career, in our business, at an event, whatever. And so I took that to heart. So we started you know, looking at everything that we currently do. And we said, well, let's do it for the King. And so I said, all right, well, let's get a kingdom based community. [00:12:01] And so, you know, we started an online community because that's something we currently do in business. It's like, well, let's get one kingdom based. And so we have that it's completely free. Anyone can join it. Then I said, let's throw events. We throw a lot of events. Why are we not throwing kingdom events? [00:12:14] And so we started throwing big events for the kingdom. And in fact, in my secular events, I just started throwing worship services and pastors in the middle of the event without even telling anyone. Because I'm like, look, this might be the only time they ever hear the good news in their entire life. [00:12:31] And, you know, whatever they might like it, they might not like it, but I don't really care. They need to hear it. And so we started incorporating faith into our events. You know, and then the last thing was really just discipling the current believers because I'm all about the lost. I want to get the lost at the events. [00:12:50] With our content, with our community, but also too, what about the people who are already saved? Well, we need to disciple them and make them better. And so we started running Bible studies all across the country. And I think we're close to a hundred, actually across the world right now, that meet every single week in people's offices, in their homes. [00:13:07] And we all go through the same studies together in these Bible studies, across as a body. And it's really cool. So, yeah, we're trying to attack it from a lot of different angles.  [00:13:18] Jason: It's a lot to organize.  [00:13:20] Ryan: Oh, yeah. But here's the thing, right? It's weird because I just said, Hey, don't do your will. Do God's will. [00:13:26] Right. But on the same hand, God gave us all talents, abilities and different life experiences. And so, you know, he calls us to use those to do his will and it's like all right god gave me a lot of influence online. Why am I not making videos and content, you know helping people understand what that means? [00:13:47] God gave me the ability to throw massive events. We threw wealth con every quarter a thousand plus people every quarter for years. Why am I not throwing massive events for the kingdom? God gave me the ability to organize communities and groups and all these things. Why am I not organizing and using my administrative gifts to do that? And it's like it's all the same thing, and they're all the same gifts and they're all the same skill sets, but on one hand you're putting him first and on the other hand you're putting yourself first  [00:14:16] Jason: Yeah, I love the idea of you know positively impacting the world I think business a lot of people don't realize I think business really there's no more efficient business model for positively changing the world than business, right? [00:14:31] I don't think charities don't function as well like businesses. There's an exchange of value And if there's value like behind it and there's a mission and a purpose behind it Then even the team members the employees everybody Are more lit up and excited and so business is a very efficient business model and you know, one of my past mentors, Alex Charfen, and he would say something to the effect of like entrepreneurs are the people that have changed the world throughout history. [00:14:57] They're the people that kind of think differently. And you know, you mentioned the word disciple like several times and I love the scripture where it's like, how do you know who's a disciple, right? And it's by this shall men know, right? You're my disciple. If you have loved one towards another and I think you know this spreading this message of like sharing true principles Which I think is what makes scripture, right? [00:15:20] It's that there's true principles that can be applied to things that are useful and I think a really good business book will have maybe one key principle it teaches, but then you take a book like the bible and it's just full of lots of different instances of principles that these levers that you can apply to various situations in your life or in decision making. [00:15:39] And you know, that's always been sort of my purpose, I feel is to bring principles to people and to share principles of truth to others, because I feel like that's the easiest lever to impact people's mindset or change their lives is to bring some truth or light or some true principles that they can apply, especially if it's facilitating more love or more kindness. [00:16:01] And there's so many different things different principles that apply in business in order to figure things out like related hiring related to you know running an efficient business  [00:16:11] Ryan: How do you know like a non profit is a business right? I mean, it's a non profit.  [00:16:15] Jason: Yeah, it is. It is a business. Yeah. [00:16:17] Ryan: A church is a business technically based on its designation, Wealthy Kingdom is a business. [00:16:22] It's a nonprofit, right? I mean, in many cases, well, I shouldn't say this because every nonprofit's different, but like for me, I make literally nothing from it. You know, I do it out of a, you know, I just want to do it. Now we have employees, we have staff, we have marketing, we have event costs, we got to pay for all this stuff. [00:16:38] Right. And so we got to figure out, man, how do we use the resources we have in the best way possible? Well, it's the same thing we ask ourself every day in business. We have a limited amount of labor, a limited amount of capital, a limited amount of time. What do we do, you know, to make the most of it? So it's all the same. [00:16:57] And I think too, right, you don't even have to have a nonprofit for this to be the example, right? This is just simply the idea of stewardship. You know, God talks a lot about stewardship and it's like, well. I've given y'all different varying degrees of talent. I've put y'all in different places. Y'all are going to be judged accordingly based on how you used your talent. [00:17:16] And I think that, well, I know that 1, 000, and a lot of Christians don't realize this. A lot of Christians, so, for all the Christians on the show, this is going to hopefully convict you, okay? A lot of people think that when you get saved, that's the end of the journey. Yeah, when literally that is like they've arrived they're done. [00:17:39] You just started! Great! [00:17:41] Jason: Yeah.  [00:17:41] Ryan: Now guess what you your whole rest of your life now actually begins and so many people like, God tells us that hey, guess what? Once you're saved, you know, there's a new judgment now. Because before it was like, all right, what happens in eternity, right? You're going to be in heaven. [00:17:58] You're going to be in hell. That's like the salvation question, but then there's this next question about judgment and stewardship and what you did with what he gave you because Somebody like myself and you will be judged more harshly than other christians and people are like, what does that mean? [00:18:18] Well, it means that if he gave you more resource and he even says if you're a teacher and you cause other people to stumble, you are going to be judged significantly more harshly than others. And so I take that super serious because I'm like, all right, yeah, I'm saved. I'm not worried about that, but man, I better do everything in my power to be a great steward and to understand if I have influence and I'm teaching people, I know exactly what I'm saying. [00:18:44] Jason: Yeah, it's much like the Parable of the Talents, you know, the worst was like to try and bury it and hide it, hide the money. The person that did the best with the money that he trusted with the most money, like, made twice as much money, like, he increased it significantly, right?  [00:19:00] Ryan: And he was also given the person's talent that, who buried his talent. [00:19:04] Jason: Exactly. He's like, I'm going to take it away from you because you don't know how to use this or how to deal with it. And so I think there's a nice summation of business in that for us, like where much is given, much is required and yeah, I've got a little bit of an audience. [00:19:18] You've got a little bit of an audience as well, right? We've got these audiences and people are listening, people pay attention to what we're doing And you know, we have a ripple effect. And I have a ripple effect through my clients who have a ripple effect through all the families that they support, the investors, the team members that they have. And that's significant and to me, that's exciting. Like, that's what motivates me to do what I do. [00:19:43] That's inspiring. But yeah, I could see that some people would maybe it would convict them. Maybe they would feel maybe they feel a little ashamed if they thought about it, man, you know, the energy I'm putting out into the world and in the universe here, isn't the ripple that I really feel is the best ripple I could create. [00:19:59] Ryan: Well, the other part, too, is obviously we have ripples here on Earth, but, you know, there are ripples for eternity based on our decisions for the people we help and everything else, and, you know, the Bible talks about how, you know, you store up your treasures in heaven, and if you read, you know, a lot of Christians also don't know this, they think that Heaven is this place where everybody's equal and, you know, we're all in the same thing. [00:20:25] No, it's actually not like there's hierarchies in heaven there. Like it's clear when the disciples are talking to Jesus and they're like, man, dude, I want to sit on your right hand. He's like, you don't even know what you're asking for. And. you know, they're clearly trying to be in that inner circle after this too. [00:20:43] And, you know, you could read all about it. There's hierarchy with demons. There's hierarchy with angels. Hierarchy is going to be in heaven. It's already there. And it's like, you know, you got a lot of investors on this podcast who are like, Oh man, I got to invest for the future. I got to get my net worth here. [00:21:01] I got to get my cashflow here. I got to. And it's like, we're investing trying to build for the future of this life. And once you truly understand that this life is so short in the span of eternity, you start thinking very differently. And you're like, well, I would rather invest for eternity. And actually, we just read this book in our Wealthy Kingdom group. [00:21:21] It's called Driven by Eternity by John Bevere. It's a great, one of the most convicting books I've ever read. But, he goes, alright. He's like, I learned this in math. Anything divided by infinity is infinity. And it's like, eternity is infinity, right? But if you were to try and even just, finitely say it with our brains, let's just say the next 24 hours, we're going to dictate the next thousand years of your reward here on earth, right? [00:21:48] How you spent the next 24 hours would dictate what reward you got for the next thousand years. You'd be like, that's insane, right? That doesn't seem right. That, you know, this is going to be  [00:22:00] Jason: proportionately skewed. To this moment. Yeah, it's- [00:22:04] Ryan: that's not even close to infinity.  [00:22:07] Jason: Yeah.  [00:22:08] Ryan: We spend 100 years here on this earth thinking we have all this time. In the scheme of infinity, it's worse than way where it could be 24 hours to 10, 000 years to a million years, a billion years. It's still not infinity. And yeah, people just don't, they don't think about it because it's so hard to grasp. But it's like I wish and this is why god has you know kind of got me more vocal about it. [00:22:33] So we're talking about it now But it's like I want investors because I'm an investor right now, you know, like I'm always looking for the best investment I'm always looking for the best use of my time, but I want people to start thinking about man, Invest for eternity. That's way longer than this! Your retirement is way shorter than infinity and eternity. [00:22:54] Jason: Though, could Jesus be a house flipper in the eternities? Because he says in my father's house, there's many mansions, right? And he said, I'm going to prepare something for you guys. And so I think what you're talking about is maybe we should be paying a little less attention maybe to just our real estate assets and our investing here and maybe do some heavenly real estate investing. [00:23:17] Ryan: I'm being 1, 000, that's 1, 000 percent what I'm saying. And it's changed my mindset so much in the last year that I could care less about my net worth. I could care less about how many properties I own. I could care less about any of it. Because eternity is so much greater.  [00:23:36] Jason: So some people might be saying, Ryan, come on. [00:23:38] You're wealthy now. You run Wealthy Investor. You've got money. So it's easy for you to say that. What would you say to the naysayers?  [00:23:46] Ryan: I would say that I've had a certain level of contentness, no matter how much money I had. I made 1200 bucks my entire 20s a month. Okay. So like, I understand what it is to have nothing. [00:23:57] And you know, people always make an excuse, right? It's like, I got three kids and a wife, five, five and under, man, I got a special needs son. I spend a lot of time with my kids. And it's like, well, you know, that's cause you, everybody's default is that's cause you have money or this or that. [00:24:14] It's like, no, all these things were built with nothing. They were all built simultaneously. It wasn't that, oh, this came after that. It's like, no, they were all built in the same construct. So people just need to realize it's just an excuse. It's a cop out. Right. And the other part too, is it's just a fact of not trusting what the Bible says. [00:24:33] So if you're not Christian- [00:24:34] Jason: which essentially is just not trusting God,  [00:24:37] Ryan: Yeah, and if you're not Christian and you don't believe it, that's one thing. But if you are a Christian, you cannot say that you are a Christian and then claim that. It is a lie. And it's like, if you read Matthew 6:33, seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, then everything else will be added to you. [00:24:54] And so this is where it comes into play of like, if I'm seeking those eternal rewards, everything else will be added to me. Now, does that mean I'm going to be a hundred millionaire billionaire own all these prop-? No, but I do know I'm going to be just fine here on earth. Like, I don't have to worry about that. [00:25:11] Like I'll be taken care of. It'll be added to me. So I just trust that promise.  [00:25:17] Jason: Yeah. I think I've always just trusted, even when money was tight, I've always trusted in my ability to figure things out and that God's going to take care of me. I just, I bought  [00:25:27] Ryan: money's been tight for me many times after I've been rich. [00:25:30] Jason: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:25:31] Ryan: Like so many times every business owner every you know, Elon Musk, dude I mean the richest man in the world, right? This guy struggles with money like, you know Yeah, dude, he had to buy Twitter for 50 billion dollars he didn't have 50 billion dollars just laying around It was like the last hour to figure out how to go buy that thing. You know, they tell the story of how he invested all of his, like, 300 million he got from PayPal into Tesla and SpaceX and they were going to both go bankrupt and not make it. [00:26:01] Yeah. So, you know, I guess it all just is, like, it comes back to this idea that people think that there's a certain amount of wealth that prevents you from, you know, ever having to work again. And that's not true. It's just not true. Like, it can all be taken from you instantly.  [00:26:16] Jason: So, here's a thought I have that I think might convict, as you say, you know, Christians or just other people that claim to believe in God. [00:26:24] Is one thing I've noticed is you know, especially among, I guess, poor christians or people that have money issues is that I've noticed this action of cursing reality while claiming to love god. It's like oh well this sucks and this and they're kind of they're negative about everything showing up in reality and my favorite name for God in a lot of instances is reality because he says I am what is I am the truth he's the ultimate and reality always wins God always ultimately wins and I don't think it's fair for a christian to claim, I'm like so like faithful to god yet I'm going to curse my reality and complain about reality and complain about how everything is and complain about my family and my spouse and my job and the world and everything else. And there's such a difference I think in people that are at odds with reality which reality will always win. Reality doesn't lie reality is what is and those that are actually in alignment with reality, and align their will to god. [00:27:29] What do you think of that?  [00:27:30] Ryan: Yeah, I mean look god has been here way before us and here's another thing. I tell people I'm just like, all right, look, you know Even if you're not a Christian, right? I think majority of people believe there is something after this life. People believe there is, you know, some supernatural thing. [00:27:47] Most people would believe in the afterlife and whatever. And then, you know, almost everyone agrees there was nothing and then there was something right. And we would call this the creation of the world. But you know, my belief is, you know, It's based on the Bible, and the Bible tells us that there was a supernatural world well before this physical world you know, God talks about there was angels, there was all these things happening well before he created the earth, and the earth is going to pass away, and then, you know, You know, it's going to be back to how it was. [00:28:16] And you know, it's like, and you know, there's going to be a new heaven, new earth, all these things, but my point with that is God was always, that's just the best he has always been. He will always will be. He will always like he's past, present, future. He's just all present. And you know, The other part I struggle with a lot of Christians is they just don't understand the power that they have. [00:28:44] You know, they walk in weakness. And in reality, it's like, Do you realize, an axe, Jesus said or not an axe, but in the Gospels, and then it happened, an axe. He said, look it's good that I'm leaving you, because you're going to get something far better than just me being here with you physically. You're going to get the Helper, and then an axe, they receive the Holy Spirit, literally God living within them, inside of them. [00:29:08] And it's like, you have literally the same God that has always been here, that created you, that created this world living inside of you, and you're worried? What would you ever be worried about? You know, just think like back to just metaphors, you know, would you ever be worried if like, you know financially if you had just like all this money just with you at all times? [00:29:31] No, you wouldn't be worried financially. Would you be worried for your physical safety if you had the most elite killers as bodyguards around you at all times? No, you wouldn't be worried about your safety. You know, like, we have something so much better than all of those things, and we're worried. [00:29:46] We think we can't do things. We don't trust.  [00:29:50] Jason: So this is a good question. Let's bring this back to entrepreneurism. How can people, maybe they don't believe in God, maybe they, they do, but how do they bring themselves, do you feel, and how do you do this? How do you bring yourself in alignment with this greater power for those that maybe can just believe that or towards the universe or the God that created it? [00:30:12] How do we start to get ourselves in alignment? So we know we're on the right path.  [00:30:15] Ryan: Well, this doesn't apply to just God. But this is just everything in life, right? You are what you consume. So if I consume junk food and crap, then, you know, I'm going to be fat and my energy will suck and all those things, right? [00:30:30] Or like for another example, right? If I consume the news all day, 24 seven, right? I'm probably going to be a very skeptical, not trusting person. I'm going to have biases, all these things. Yeah. If I consume entrepreneur content all day and I watch all these guys I'm probably just going to be thinking about making money 24 seven, right? [00:30:48] You are what you consume in all areas of life and you know, you are the average of the five people you hang around with all of these things are a form of just what you consume And so if you want to become more like jesus you have to consume and get around people that are like Jesus. And so, you know, what does that look like? [00:31:05] Well, it looks like reading your Bible every day. It looks like praying every day. It looks like hanging around, you know, other Christians who are walking the walk. It looks like going to church on Sundays. It looks like listening to sermons, listening to worship music. You know, you just have to immerse yourself in it and consume it. And that's how you're going to become more aligned. It's crazy because like, I'll tell you this, and this could sound extreme to people, but it's like, you start to realize the rest of the things in the world that are deception, right? It's like, I used to not think rap music and things were like bad. [00:31:38] You know, I used to listen to gangster rap all the time, man. I love Tupac and all these guys. And then you start to just like, you know, they call me little Ryan. You know, you look, you listen to the lyrics, you know, from a different point of view and you're like, Oh my gosh, this is not good. This is crazy that I listened to this when I was a kid, I should not have been listening to this. [00:31:59] Right. Because you start to get convicted if you watch porn, it's like you're going to start looking at your wife a different way because you're just you're consuming the wrong things. Yeah. Yeah, and even little things start to convict you too. It's like, for the first time ever, we didn't celebrate Halloween this year. [00:32:15] Because I just became convicted that you know, its origins are demonic. And it's like, you just watch all of this stuff with it. And it's like, yeah, definitely none of this glorifies God. If it doesn't glorify God, why would I do it? You know? And it's like it glorifies demons and, you know, all of these dark things, it's like, that doesn't seem proper. [00:32:39] Jason: Yeah, like, you know, it's kind of that balance of how to be in the world, but not of the world, right? Like Jesus was hanging out with publicans and sinners and he was around people, but he also wasn't like just doing everything that they were doing. And so, yeah, I think that's an interesting concept. [00:32:53] I like, though, what you said about. And that wasn't even where my head was going, when I asked the question, but I love that you said like look at the people that you're choosing to be around. There's a consumption there and There's this book called the Dark Side of the Light Chasers it's by Debbie Ford and it's interesting because she talks about in it that we each have this golden side and we also have this dark side to us and the golden side Is the side of ourselves that we see reflected in others that we of the people that we look up to. And there's different people that kind of trigger that in us. [00:33:25] Some people, for example, like look at Donald Trump, very polarizing figure. Some people look at him and are very triggered and their dark side is triggered. They see a narcissist, they see all these negative attributes and then there's some that look at him and they're like, Oh, he's an entrepreneur or he's strong or he's masculine or whatever. [00:33:42] Right? And they look at the golden side. And I think what we see in other people and the people we choose to be around, we want to choose to be around people that we perceive as having a light. Somebody that has something that we want and attributes that we want to become more like. And I think choosing to do that, especially in choosing mentors, is important. [00:34:01] Because you're going to ultimately become a little bit more like them. And that doesn't mean every mentor that I choose is, like, ahead of me in every key area of life. But if they're at least in the area a little bit ahead of me in success in the area I'm getting coaching from then I'm going to absorb that but I'm careful not to take on everything else and to be discerning and to use discernment. [00:34:23] I think it's important like you said to be around people that you perceive as being a high caliber or people that you believe are moving towards greater light.  [00:34:33] Ryan: I agree with all of it.  [00:34:36] Jason: Love that. All right. So Ryan, what if somebody is listening to this and we talked a lot about like kind of faith, God, religion, stuff like this, and somebody who's like, okay, maybe I'm willing to entertain the idea that God exists. [00:34:54] Maybe Jesus is somebody I should like figure out, what would you say is a good first step for those people?  [00:35:02] Ryan: Well, you know, obviously like the Bible is the truth, right? That's God's revelation to us. And so a lot of people are like, well, I don't even know where to start with the Bible. I would say step one buy a study Bible. [00:35:13] So I would just go on Amazon. I would just, I would get an IV study Bible. It's very simple. So that way it has you know, just notes on the side for you to help you understand what it's saying and different questions. And so, you know, I have a study Bible right here. So this is, you know, maybe you can find this one on Amazon. [00:35:31] This is called the Quest Study Bible. Now, this Bible is like 15 years old. So maybe this one, they don't make this one anymore. But actually, I know they do make a version of it. It's not called the Quest Study Bible anymore, but just look at the NIV Study Bible. And I would start in Matthew. [00:35:44] That is the very beginning of the New Testament. I would just start in Matthew and read it all the way through. So, unlike other books where you start at the very beginning. You're going to start about two thirds of the way through in Matthew and just trust me, it'll make sense. So that would be step one. [00:35:58] Step two, I would say, you know, obviously you want to get plugged into a local church. That, that's a lot harder for somebody who doesn't know anything. So here's what I would advise is join us at Wealthy Kingdom. So it's wealthykingdom.Com. Everything's free. You can be a part of the community and you can get plugged into a Bible study with other entrepreneurs in your area or virtually. So that's going to be your best place to really build connections because you're going to also be around other people who understand the actual life that you live right now. And they're open. We have lots of non believers in our Bible studies who are there to learn, man. [00:36:34] They're like, look, I'm here to learn. I don't know. I don't believe. I don't even know what you believe, but I'm here to learn. And so we, we love those types of people. So I would, those would be the two steps I do because I don't know everybody here listening is listening to different things. So I don't know what local church you should go to or anything. [00:36:52] So come join us virtually. And then you're probably going to meet people in Wealthy Kingdom that are in your area, especially the local Bible study. And they're going to know what local church for you to go to.  [00:37:02] Jason: Got it. You know, this is maybe a controversial hot take of, mine But I feel like a lot of people get so caught up in trying even among christians or non christians trying to prove whether the bible and everything in it is factual history or not It's like facts and data. [00:37:19] They're trying to prove it and I think both sides miss sight of the most important elements, which is are there true principles that are applicable? Can you apply these things to your life? Are they useful tools? And I think that's the real measure of a principle, whether it's true or not, is you try it out. [00:37:38] You test this, try this on in your life and see if the fruit is good. See if it gives you positive results. Does it give you positive results to believe these things? Or does it cause, you know, does it take you in the opposite direction? Do you feel like you're moving towards something higher? Or is it taking you backwards? [00:37:57] Ryan: Yeah, there's biblical truth to that. You know, there was a reason Jesus performed miracles, you know, like a lot of people, a lot of people are like, well, why? Right? He could have just said all the things he said, hey, you know, don't steal. You know, follow the Ten Commandments. Love your neighbor. [00:38:13] Everybody can agree with those things. But it's like, yo. I'm going to make this person the lord of my life, which he was asking them to do, to believe that he's the son of God, to believe and give their entire life to him. It's like, well, dude, you better show me something else if you want me to commit to that degree. [00:38:31] And you know, that's why he performed signs and wonders to show them that, hey, look, I am the one. And You know, it's true, right? Like, that's why he did it. And that's why all of the disciples you know, were killed for preaching it well after he was gone, because they saw it, they believed, and they knew that the reward, you know, was going to be great eternally, right? [00:38:52] Look, Jesus says it to Doubting Thomas too, when he returns, right? A lot of the disciples believe, they're like, Oh dude, like he's back. And then Thomas is like, I ain't believing until I see him. Until I see the holes in his body. And so Jesus comes back and he's like, Look, Thomas, feel the hole, right? [00:39:08] Shows him the hole in his hands. And he's like, blessed are those who believe without seeing.  [00:39:12] Their faith is stronger, but still, it's all good that you needed to see to believe. Like, it's all good. And so. There are going to be people who listen to this and they're like, I believe all this makes sense. [00:39:26] And then there are going to be those who say no, I need to see the fruit. I need to see why I should believe. And in fact, I still believe miracles happen today. I've seen them with my own hands. I've prayed for miracles that cannot be explained other than they were miraculous. And you know, with that, it's like both happen. [00:39:43] Jason: I think that I think if we're really created in the image of God,. Then I think that is a clue that we might be a lot more powerful than we realize and you know there's even evidence that the placebo effect is getting stronger as time goes on. So like as they do drug testing and stuff like this drugs have to pass a certain test that they're stronger than placebo. The challenge is drugs are having a harder and harder time showing that they're stronger than placebo because the placebo effect is actually getting stronger. And I think that humanity worked our consciousness is raising a bit. [00:40:19] I think that people are realizing that we are creators, that we are more powerful than we give ourselves credit. And, you know, Jesus says, if you have faith, like a grain of a mustard seed, you could like move a mountain or something. Right. And so I think that I think there is something to, you know, this idea that we can create this positive future or alter our reality or alter things real time, like people's physical health or blessing people or different things. I do think that miracles can occur and there's evidence of it happening all the time. And I think in religion, see, I grew up Mormon. And I'm a very ultra conservative. [00:41:00] I was a Mormon missionary for two years and then eventually left it. I didn't even try alcohol until I was over 30. And I'm the only one in my family that, that left. I'm the black sheep and I'm the oldest of five boys. So, sorry mom, sorry dad.  [00:41:14] Ryan: I'm not happy with you.  [00:41:15] Jason: They still love me, but I think one of the things that I, and I'm grateful for all that I learned, like we, we did, I did a lot of religious study growing up and I was the one that just kept digging until I took my way out of it, I guess. [00:41:26] Ryan: Mormon apologetics is a tough thing to defend.  [00:41:30] Jason: Yeah. So I think you know, there's a lot of people think that they need to sell some sort of gospel or good news of, Jesus or the christian church by convincing people their life is going to suddenly be magical or better and that's not always true, and I don't think that's the whole point is that you don't magically make everything about your external circumstances in your life better, but I think being more in alignment with god and being more connected allows you this greater strength to weather what's happening. [00:42:02] I mean if you look at what happened to Peter or any of the apostles, like they suffered horrible deaths. I don't know that their life magically became more amazing because they followed Jesus, but they had that conviction and they knew truth. And I think in a lot of instances, becoming Christian or believing in Jesus or following his principles may make your life in some instances, more challenging, you know, maybe there's more fiery darts thrown at you by the adversary, for example, but I do believe that there's some sort of there's some sort of power and confidence that comes with knowing that your personal life and will is in alignment with God wants for you. [00:42:45] Like you're following that calling and that knowing within, and there's a strength that comes from that, that nobody else can shake. It doesn't matter like what your parents are saying to you. It doesn't matter what your spouse maybe is concerned about. It doesn't matter if you know, you're doing what is right, then you're willing to just let the consequences follow. [00:43:03] And that's different than just looking for this better life or a mansion here on earth instead of a mansion in heaven.  [00:43:10] Ryan: Yeah, and you know, Jesus said hey you got to pick up your cross and follow me. It's like picking up your cross literally means dying to your old self and giving your all to Jesus And you know somebody's like oh, but like I got to say bye and to my dad and I gotta bury and he's no. [00:43:27] No, this has nothing to do with your current family. This is about you and me You know, whether or not you're going to follow. And you know, I've met many Mormon, ex Mormons, Jews, Muslims, people who have given their life to Jesus. And you know, it's tough because there's so many family dynamics that go on to it. [00:43:46] And it's like, it ain't easy. And I feel for those people, cause that, that's very hard. But I also am a believer that, you know, through your faith and through, you know, those who make that commitment, they have the chance to impact their families. So much more and they can be sanctified through them. [00:44:02] Jason: Yeah, I mean I had a meeting with the mastermind this morning and we were talking about distractions And we were all these they're all men and we're all sharing like what's distracting us and what's holding us you know back from the things we should be doing and you know and I was thinking about you know, just how can I be a better father? [00:44:21] How can I be a better partner, a better spouse? How can it be a better business leader? And at the stage I'm at now, it's just more discipline. It's less distractions. And it's all like cutting out all of the fat and the little things that are so easily taking us. And that's kind of what you led us into here in the beginning. [00:44:39] You know, what do you, what would you say to those that are just, they're trying to run their business, they're dealing with a lot of distractions, which is common for entrepreneurs. We see shiny objects everywhere. How do they get focused and how they start, how did they start listening to that inner voice that connects them with the divine so they can start making the right moves? [00:45:00] Ryan: Well, I think it's very simple, right? You just make God the focus. You just have to trust that if you make him the focus. Everything else will fall into place. And then it goes back to Matthew 6, 33, seek first the kingdom and his righteousness and everything else will be added to you. And that's faith. [00:45:18] That's faith in a nutshell, because you'll be like, well, don't understand the fires that I have, Ryan. You don't understand the drama and the problems. My kids are doing this, my relationship with my wife sucks. Like I got to focus over there in order to fix. You know, well, before I can go worry about God. [00:45:35] I mean, that's like the biggest thing I hear all the time too. It's like, well, I. Once I get my life right, then I'll start going to church. I'm like, no, you can't get your life right. That's why Jesus paid the price, because you can't. It's the same funny thing I hear when people are like-  [00:45:49] Jason: it's like saying once I get abs, I'll stop eating candy bars. [00:45:53] Ryan: Yeah, well, I was going to use a health example too where I hear this actually from people because I was in sports for so long Hey, I'm going to get in shape first, then I'm going to go get a trainer and start you know, because I'm not ready to go train with them like, that's too hard. I got to like get in shape first and I'm like, dude. [00:46:09] No, that's why you need a trainer like no, And yeah, it's the same thing with faith. It's like if you follow god and you seek his ways I mean just like you've been saying from a practical standpoint. If you follow what the Bible says, your relationship with your wife will get better. Like, you're just going to be a better leader, you're going to serve her, you're going to be different. [00:46:27] Your relationship with your kids will get better. The relationship with your employees will get better. The way you act in business will be better. You know? And it doesn't mean that it's going to be easy. I didn't say it was going to be easy. I just said, it's going to get better. And you know, I've had, yeah. And I had, I've had so many difficult situations in business, you know, lost millions, investors pissed, customers pissed, lawsuits. [00:46:53] I've dealt with everything you could imagine in business. And guess what? Every time I've been able to get through it and it's because of my faith and I didn't know how I would get through it. I didn't know what the outcome would be. I didn't know how I would solve it. But I can tell you I slept pretty good throughout all of it because I just knew God would take care of it some way somehow. [00:47:16] Jason: You knew it would be figured out and you felt like you had somebody on your side that's pretty powerful.  [00:47:21] Ryan: I mean, God promises to be on my side.  [00:47:23] Jason: Yeah.  [00:47:24] Ryan: You know, Romans 8, 28 says that, you know, he works all things for my good, for those who believe.  [00:47:30] Jason: Even the tough stuff.  [00:47:32] Ryan: All things, not some things.  [00:47:34] Jason: Whom God loves, he chastens. Despise not the chastening of the Lord, right? So may not necessarily be easy, but yeah, it'll be worth it.  [00:47:41] Ryan: Don't expect anything to be easy.  [00:47:43] Jason: Right. I think we go into it, we should expect things to be hard and worth it. And I think when we're, it's kind of like the old stoic adage, you know, hard choices, easy life. [00:47:53] Easy choices, hard life. We all know people that they're focused on ease. They're focused on trying to have comfort They're focused on how do I how do I avoid doing stuff? I just want to relax. I just want my weekend I just want time and I think as i've grown into adulthood and you know focus more on stepping more into my masculinity. [00:48:13] I've realized that you know, nobody's coming to save us, except maybe Jesus, right? Nobody's coming to do it for us. There's a level of work that's expected and we need to get beyond always seeking comfort because comfort is a deceptive and alluring sort of drug and we need to be willing to put in the work put in the effort and focus and put in that discipline and then life gets a lot easier overall Like life gets a lot better overall when we're disciplined. Disciplined people don't cheat on their spouses. [00:48:47] Disciplined people like, you know, take care of their kids and spend time with them on the weekend. Disciplined people you know, focus and take care of their health so they have less health issues. They're putting their own oxygen mask on first, so to speak, so they can take care of others, right? [00:49:02] And that's it. That's discipline. And I think that's important. Well, Ryan we're about out of time. I really appreciate you coming on the show. This has been I think inspiring conversation. It's got my brain sort of running in a bunch of different directions thinking about, you know, how can I be better and how can I evolve as a human? [00:49:19] What would you like to say in your final words to those listening to this podcast and maybe how they can get in touch with you or your various businesses.  [00:49:30] Ryan: Yeah, I think you know, as far as getting in touch with me, that's easy. You can just go on social media, search Ryan Pineda, wherever. [00:49:37] So that part's easy. I would say the final thing to leave him with, I mean, we've talked a lot about faith and eternity and everything else. And that's usually the final thing I leave on podcasts because I don't depending on where the conversation goes, right? You know, I'll always draw it back to faith. [00:49:51] So I would just say that, man, I mean, like, look there's a common theme for what we're saying. It's like, life's going to be hard one way or the other, you know, you're going to go through tough times. You are going to have uncertainty. You're not going to know if things are going to work out or not the way that you're hoping. [00:50:08] You know, One thing I know for sure is, and this will apply for both ways, not just faith, but also business and faith. When you start becoming process driven more than results driven, your life changes. Because you're never going to be up and down with the result. You're always just trusting the process. [00:50:28] And so, you know, baseball, we had to learn this every day. It's like, I don't know who's pitching tomorrow. I don't know. Like, I just got to trust my routine, my process, and then I'm doing the right things every day. And if I follow that, I know I'm going to get the best result that I possibly can get. In the long run, and I think you were referencing that when it comes to, Hey, you know what? [00:50:46] Even if you don't believe these biblical principles are going to change your life, that's a form of trusting the process. And if you do, you know, you'll end up getting better results just overall, whether you believe or not, and you just follow that process. And then, you know, I would say even to take it a step further, it's like, man, if you trust that he is the creator of this world and he has promised to take care of you then that's a process to choose to have faith and trust that's the case, to trust that his plan is better than your plan. And it's not easy because we all want control. We all want certainty. That's, you know, that's our human nature. [00:51:21] That's why we're trying to get financially free. That's why we're trying to you know, get enough cash flow and I teach on these things like I get it. But there's a better plan. And you know, if you just trust the process every day of following him, he will make your path straight, you know? And so I've seen that in my own life. [00:51:42] I'll tell you this. I never thought I'd be a podcaster, an events guy, a social media guy. I never thought that was going to be the thing, but. I felt like God was calling me down that path, and here we are. And I don't know where he's going to call me the next 10 years. I don't have a 10 year plan. I don't have any of that, and I don't care. [00:51:59] All I'm trying to do is whatever God's calling me to do at this moment, and I want to be flexible to his will, and be very careful not to just insert my will. And that's it, right?  [00:52:10] Jason: Yeah, appreciate it. You know, appreciate you coming on the show. I think, I agree. I think you know, even if you, For some reason don't want to be christian you don't you don't you're opposed for some reason. [00:52:23] Some people are just like opposed to the bible, just look at the bible through the lens of what are the principles that have made this book one of the greatest books of all time? Why has it stood out? Why has it stood the test of time? Why do so many people look to it for wisdom and for insight? There's so much wisdom in there and if you can at least just be willing to extract wisdom wherever you can find it, then you're not an idiot And so at least start there, everybody listening, just look for wisdom, be a seeker of wisdom and look for the things that are better and higher. [00:52:53] And that's going to eventually lead you to better and higher things and help you to weather the storm. And you can tell Ryan has, you know, he has this confidence that comes from knowing it's not all reliant on him. He trusts that there's something greater than him that's going to give him a source of power or ideas or decision making or guide his paths and to not have that for those of you listening must be terrifying. It must feel a little bit scary to just not have nothing else above you to reach up to. And so there is a god. There's somebody reach up to, go ahead and test it out. [00:53:29] My way of aligning towards God is to sit, read things that I feel like lead me closer to something better and higher. That could be scripture, whatever, or to meditate on something, but then to think, how can I align my will with that? What is that voice inside? What is that calling telling me to do and take those actions and do it. [00:53:47] If you don't take those actions, listen to it, that voice will get quieter. But if you start to listen to that voice and take those actions, it's going to get more and more clear to the point where you have that confidence to go out and make decisions. So I think that's a good ending note here. [00:54:01] So Ryan this is a very different podcast episode than we've ever done here on the DoorGrow show. So there we go. I like it. The most impactful one though. I appreciate you inspiring us to get into faith and chat about that. All right. And And that'll be it for today's show until next time everybody to our mutual growth If you are struggling within your property management business to figure out how to figure out what you need to do next in your business operationally or how to add doors, reach out to us. We'd love to support you. Check us out at doorgrow. com and that's it. Bye everyone. [00:54:33] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:54:59] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Ever wonder what it takes to turn your Walmart product listings from lackluster to lucrative? Ryan King, the savvy CEO of BlueRyse, joins us on the airwaves to share his expert strategies for maximizing your presence on Walmart's digital shelves. Together, we navigate the intricacies of PPC, the subtleties of listing optimization, and the crucial metrics that could make or break your profits. Ryan's advice, drawn from the cutting-edge tools of Helium 10, affords a masterclass in finessing your financials and leveraging Walmart's ever-growing online platform for unparalleled brand growth and diversification. In the vast sea of selling at Walmart, standing out is an art form, and we've got the brushes and palette to help you paint a masterpiece with your product listings. Our journey reveals how to ensure your offerings are not just indexed, but also scoring high on Walmart's listing quality score. We cover all bases from the precision of backend attributes to the finesse required in product type optimization. We also dissect the importance of competitive pricing and swift delivery, how to ace the A/B testing game, and even how Walmart's fulfillment services can provide a much-needed boost in ranking. As the curtain falls on this episode, we've left no stone unturned in the realm of Walmart PPC and the emerging tactics of brand conquesting. Imagine targeting competitor brand terms, a concept newly possible on Walmart, and the advantage it hands you in the grand chessboard of ecommerce. Wrapping up with a flourish, we dabble in the complexities of SEM strategies and the nuances of bidding wars, closing with a heartfelt word of thanks to Ryan for his insights. So, tune in and equip yourself with the secrets to selling success on one of the world's most formidable marketplaces. In episode 546 of the Serious Sellers Podcast, Carrie and Ryan discuss: 00:00 - Walmart Listing Optimization for Increased Sales 01:47 - Expert Insights on Walmart Brand Performance 04:54 - Leveraging Social Proof in E-Commerce 08:58 - Optimizing Search Terms on E-Commerce Platforms 12:48 - Maximizing eCommerce Channel Expansion 18:07 - PPC Strategies & Updates for Walmart 24:19 - Untapped Brand Defense Opportunities 29:42 - Expanding Opportunities in Walmart Marketplace 32:36 - Optimizing Walmart PPC Bidding Strategies 36:26 - Tips for Completing Applications Successfully 40:00 - Secret Strategies Ryan Uses ► Instagram: instagram.com/serioussellerspodcast ► Free Amazon Seller Chrome Extension: https://h10.me/extension ► Sign Up For Helium 10: https://h10.me/signup  (Use SSP10 To Save 10% For Life) ► Learn How To Sell on Amazon: https://h10.me/ft ► Watch The Podcasts On Youtube: youtube.com/@Helium10/videos Transcript Carrie Miller: Walmart PPC and Listing Optimization Strategies to increase sales on the Walmart marketplace. This and so much more on today's episode. Bradley Sutton: How cool is that? Pretty cool, I think. What was your gross sales yesterday, last week, last year? More importantly, what are your profits after all your cost of selling on Amazon? Did you pay any storage charges to Amazon? How much did you spend on PPC? Find out these key metrics and more by using the Helium 10 tool Profits For more information, go to H10.me/profits. Carrie Miller: Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Serious Sellers Podcast brought to you by Helium 10. My name is Carrie and I will be your host, and this is our Winning with Walmart Wednesday, where we go over all things Walmart, we tell you the latest and greatest news about Walmart, we answer your questions and we have an amazing Walmart expert guest. I'm going to just tell you a little bit about some Helium 10 tools, because I haven't really mentioned these a lot lately. I wanted to make sure that everyone is aware that Helium 10 does have a lot of amazing tools that support Walmart. So we have X-Ray. It's going to help you with sales estimates and so much more. We have our Cerebro and Magnet tools that help you find amazing keywords for your listings. We also have our Profits tool and our Keyword Tracking tool. In addition to that, we have Adtomic, which is our paper click advertising management software, so that is extremely helpful. We've added day parting and a lot of other amazing things to Adtomic, so it's definitely the best it's ever been and highly recommend checking that out if you haven't checked it out. All right. So today I want to bring on our guest, and I'm really, really excited to have him on today and his name is Ryan King, and so thanks so much for being on. Ryan is a CEO and co-founder of BlueRyse, which is a Walmart agency, and I've actually known Ryan for a few years now. We met at the Billion Dollar Seller Summit and we definitely connected on Walmart stuff, so he's definitely an expert in the field and I'm really excited for him to share all of his knowledge with everyone today. I know he was on last year, but for anyone, Ryan, that doesn't know you, can you go ahead and tell a little bit about yourself to the audience? Ryan: Certainly. Yeah, thanks for having me on here, Carrie. Glad to be on this episode here of the Serious Sellers Podcast, specifically talking about Walmart. So yeah, BlueRyse is a full managed service agency focused specifically on Walmart. We've been operating with third party and first party brands since early 2020. And our focus is on everything from content optimization, ad management, catalog management, interfacing with Walmart personnel, all these other elements with regard to, ultimately, the focus of maximizing Walmart brand's performance on Walmart.com. Carrie Miller: I want to first start out and just ask you, because you've been in this Walmart game for quite some time, what do you think the main advantages are for third party sellers to start selling on Walmart and do you think it's a really good opportunity? Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. It's a great opportunity. I think the advantages have continued to grow over the years. They haven't diminished. One of the reasons we saw the opportunity on Walmart was as brand owners ourselves. We began and launched and grew brands on Amazon back in the day, starting in early 2013. And we were looking for ways to, as brand owners, de-risk a bit, diversify revenues back during the aggregator boom. Part of the factor was how do we increase multiples, all those kind of elements? I think all the principles remain the same as to why those would be advantages. If you're truly building a brand, then you're looking to identify what are the channels that make sense to increase sales, increase profits overall and to de-risk. So that's one advantage of finding other marketplaces, other channels to sell through. Beyond that, there's just the fact that Walmart is pushing heavy and has been pushing heavy into the online marketplace space. They understand that for them as a business, as a retailer, while they're the number one retailer in the world, e-commerce certainly has been a major growth factor for others competitors like Amazon and everybody else, and so Walmart understands that they need to compete in the digital shelf. That means they want more sellers, they want a broader assortment, they want great products so that more shoppers come and have a great experience. So that has led to Walmart heavily focusing on building out their third-party marketplace over the last several years. I would say a couple other that come to mind social proof and reviews and ratings have been always on the forefront of e-commerce sellers' minds, especially in the Amazon space, such large motes. I haven't looked at this example in a while, but earbuds, Bluetooth earbuds. When I looked at it, probably two years ago, the average review count for Bluetooth earbuds on page one for Amazon was somewhere around 40,000. At the time, the average review count for that keyword, which was a high volume keyword, on Walmart was around 800. And so just the opportunity to enter the market. You know, if you had wished you had. You know the buzz for a long time was Walmart is Amazon of 2012 or whatever it may be. Walmart is in its own right of maturing marketplace these days, but the opportunity still exists. In that way, I think, the other ones. There is a bit of a different shopper base, and so if you have a broader assortment, your heroes on Amazon or other marketplaces may also translate to be your heroes on Walmart and you can just get a continued growth of that assortment. However, we also do see because it is a different shopper, a different marketplace, sometimes some other products that may not be performing as well in your catalog on Amazon might be your top performers on Walmart for various reasons, and so it breeds new life into your catalog, potentially. And then, finally, if you really want to identify ways of growing the brand, and maybe brick and mortar retail is a desire of yours at some point, then there is a credible pathway to getting products into brick and mortar. We work with brands all the time. Who that is part of their play, whether they've begun with conversations with merchants first, and it's a let's test and see and let's get it in, or if they're native e-commerce or D to C first, and they're, they're engaging with us in order to optimize and maximize performance planning on that conversation in the future. We see those dots connect quite consistently to at least get a conversation. So all the above and then, for those who have FOMO you know, to kind of trigger the FOMO, that it's, it's a bit of this is the opportunity to get in now, even if it's maybe a mid to longer term play for some brands. Get in now while you, while the opportunity is there, while there's more access to account managers and others who are aligned incentives with you, to get your assortment online on their marketplace. Carrie Miller: Yeah, amazing, yeah, those are all really amazing reasons. The next question I have for you is you know, people are always wanting to know how can I, you know, increase my sales on Walmart. So what are some strategies you have for listing, optimization and just increasing sales on Walmart? Ryan: Yeah, you know, I know a lot of these have probably been covered repeated ways, but it bears repeating again would be step number 1 is making sure you're not just If you're gonna, if it is a secondary or tertiary marketplace in your mindset and strategy and you're not paying attention to the unique ways you need to optimize for Walmart, then unless you're kind of the you hit the trend at the right time in the in the search volume at the right time, Walmart with an optimized listing, you're not gonna see great sales lift. And so Step one would be, know the Walmart marketplace. Understand how the algorithm works, understand what product listing optimization means, understand that it needs to be original for Walmart's marketplace and how that impacts sales. And so if I was looking and we can talk about I know we've talked about this several times in the past to some key things to look at, let's just jump forward and assume you're on the marketplace, you're trying to grow sales in your troubleshooting, first step I go to is on the listing itself. Or actually the first step would be double check search term volumes, and this is easy. Segue into talking more about Helium 10 tools, because that's what we use is look at your category. One simple way to do it you can either start with your own listing or you start with competitive listings. But one way we like to do it is as well as you go to Walmart.com, go to the category and sort by bestseller, you'll probably get a lot of 1P brands, meaning in store brands, those they're popping up at the top list. But go ahead and pull up X-ray if you have Helium 10 X-ray and scrape the Top 10 out of there and then plug those in, analyze them through Cerebral and get that, that search term volume list, and identify where are the search volumes? Are you optimized for those? One thing to call out if you're in a consumable space or anything that might be more related to grocery, for example, Amazon search volumes, you might have found success with different types of search terms. But there might be high volume search terms on Walmart you haven't even optimized for Because Amazon wasn't a grocery first type marketplace or that type of place. So there's, there can be high volume keywords that would not even exist really On the Amazon marketplace that are going to be high drivers on Walmart. So identify, get, make sure you're looking at the right search terms. Secondly is just make sure you're indexing and ranking before you even think about ranking. Are you indexing? And one of the fundamental areas that you've got to look at to make sure you're indexing properly is your category. Are you on the right shelf path? But if you go into growth opportunities and you click on your listing in your kind of table of products that show up there product type widget will show up and look at that product type and I didn't try and identify. Is this the right? Does this fit? Product type determines what the back end attributes are on your listing that you need to fill out and, just as a quick aside, you need to fill those out as exhaustively as possible. It's only getting more and more important to do so. While your listing quality score is not as heavily Impacted by attributes as it used to be, your visibility and relevance are, and they only increase increasingly. Be so. So fill those all out. If, even if it's a not applicable, you know, even if it's saying sports team and you're a toothpaste brand, you know, make sure you just say none are not applicable, whatever is there, and then test the product type. We've talked about this in the past and we can talk about it again if you like. But testing that makes sure your listings are optimized. So the algorithm on Walmart's giving you quantitative feedback Between your content, which is your back end attributes, your title, images of long and short descriptions, and are you at? You get mostly ranking benefits around 80%. But if your long term play is really to be best in class and to open up other doors with potential features and other things, 95% or higher is your goal offer. So price parity with other marketplaces is key, and speed of delivery. So, whether it's using something like a deliver, we heavily recommend just using Walmart fulfillment services. They continue to get broader distribution. You're instantly credited in the score with utilizing theirs and getting 2 day delivery. So use the levers that Walmart's given you on the marketplace, and we can talk further about other ways. If someone's listening saying I've done all that, I'm at 95%. I don't know what else to optimize. We're using WFS. There are other things to continue to do. We could talk about whether that's how do you look at imagery in a way to convert? How do you utilize advertising? How do you drive external traffic to listings? What's its impact? We go a variety of ways. Maybe the last thing I'll say, though, is the first question. The last thing I'll say is maybe the first question you should ask yourself is what's your overall business case? So sometimes we have sellers come to us and they're saying I don't want to do anything, Amazon's my main channel. I would like to sell in Walmart. What can I do? And there's going to be certain limitations. If you're saying I don't, price is going to be determined by my other marketplace, not by Walmart, or something like that, you've got to be aware of those and what you're long, how the impacts, the levers you can pull on Wal-Mart. Now there's some interesting features coming out, like couponing and different things that can maybe allow for greater flexibility there. Carrie Miller: Can you talk a little bit about how to product AB test your product type, because I know you mentioned that In there. Just how to optimize, because I know you know certain product types reach more keywords. So how do you just keep track of the keywords that you? Maybe you Get impressions for an ad or like how do you really determine which one has better keyword reach? Ryan: You can do. There's various methods. It's whether you're doing advertising. You're just saying we're not. We're not getting on to your goal when you're running advertising for any keyword. Really, if you're using search and grid, which is a sponsored product, that's what most people are thinking about when they're leveraging advertising on Walmart, you're competing for Page 1. It makes sense that from a conversion standpoint, most people aren't going to Page 2, Page 3, but literally you're competing for Page 1 because the Top 4 positions are awarded potentially for the keywords in the categories for sponsored product and the next 2 out of every 10. But you've got, on average, around 40 products on Page 1 of the listing of the search results. Those same positions are being repeated across every page. There is no, I didn't get position 1 Page 1. Maybe I'll get position 1, Page 2. Position 1, Page 1 is repeated across every page. You've got to compete for those top positions. In order to do that, keyword relevancy matters. You'll get the signals If I'm showing up and position 200 from my ad reports or whatever. Or if you're using Helium 10 again and Keyword Ranking Tracking and maybe turn on boost for those keywords where it may be and track on a real-time basis best you can, how you're performing on those keywords. Obviously, make sure it's in your title. Title has the highest ranking, has historically had the highest ranking influence on keywords. You can only get about 1 or 2 in there because you don't want keyword stuff. Then in your description both points, all those things as well. Make sure it's in your listing. If it's in description and key features, repeated just a couple of times, make sure it's readable and flows naturally. Once you've made sure it's in there, then track, get your baseline. It's not truly an experiment if you didn't really record ahead of time. Am I running an experiment? Otherwise, we use the word experiment like when we just tried something and failed but we don't know what we learned. Get your baseline, see what your rankings were. Before you try something, use Helium 10's Keyword Tracker. Then go into growth opportunities, go into pick that listing, get to that middle widget that says product type. Make sure you record which one you are right now. I've used this example in the past with you, Carrie, I believe. But one case study we did was involving a client who was in herbal supplements. Their product type it was an herbal supplement and their product type was actually an herbal supplement. The product type was a one-to-one exact match. You would assume this is the best product type to be in, but we weren't indexing for them, no matter what we did for probably 10 to 15 major keywords that we knew they should get. We went to that widget. You pick. I think it's a reporting issue. It doesn't say switch product type or anything. You have to click the link that says reporting issue. It'll give you usually 4 to 5 choices of other product type. You think it is. Basically what it's doing is creating a support ticket for you and you can submit that request of change. It's not a guarantee that it'll happen, but persistence pays off. We recommend making requests of that change once you've been informed that changes happen. Then watch for us. What we saw was in that product, all the keywords we needed were instantly indexing for and began ranking within the first couple of pages of results. That was the beginning of the journey. That's a general standard practice for us in making sure we're in the right product type as well. Carrie Miller: All right, that's really good. Yeah, that's a really good strategy. I've used your example many times because people ask me about that a lot. Usually, when they get in the right product type, they start to see a lot more traction. Thanks for sharing that. I want to get into advertising because we haven't talked a lot about PPC on Walmart, on our podcast here for Walmart. I think a lot of people have questions about it. I wanted to just get your. I know you have some basic strategies or just thoughts about PPC and then also some new things that are coming that you think people should take advantage of. Then, once we're done with that, we'll get into some questions from the audience. Ryan: By way of really brief recap for those that have been around the Walmart space, I've heard of it over the past couple of years. A lot of people were shy about getting into Walmart PPC in the earlier days because it used to be a first bid auction, which meant fundamentally different than how you would be used to utilizing Amazon. Whatever you bid is what you paid. People were just blowing through their entire budget because they were trying to figure out if they could get a keyword to rank and they thought if I just spend more, I'll get placement. In those cases they were bidding $4 a click and they were winning position 40. They were getting the click and they were spending $4 for a click on position 40. The good news is shift to second bid auction. That's been around for quite a bit now. Really, what you're talking about when we're talking about PPC is fundamentally you've got a sponsored product, which is broken down into two types of campaigns: auto and manual. You've got search and grid placement. You've got item carousels that you can get in search results. You can get item carousels on product detail pages as well as next to the buy box placement. You've got on the manual campaigns, you've got exact match, phrase match and broad match, then auto campaign is what it sounds like. You're letting the algorithm do its thing. You've got some placement modifiers. You can do modifiers for app, desktop and mobile. In some other ways you can tweak things. The big thing to know still with Walmart PPC is it's heavily influenced by algorithms. Determination of are you relevant for those keywords, and so that has a. I mean that's common practice and most ad retail media platforms. But it's a heavy influencer on Walmart. So you do need to approach it from an organic signal, cell signals as well as PPC. When you're trying to rank through PPC you just can't spend your way to the top. You need to be in striking distance. The top 256 organic ranking results qualify for placement and searching grid, but you're ultimately trying to outperform whoever's in position at least 40, or at least position 30. And so it's usually a hand and glove kind of operation of how you're going to drive signals to the platform for purchase intent, showing that relevancy, and then continue increase your PPC so that you're stair stepping your way up to, ideally, somewhere in those first four positions or somewhere on that page 1. Carrie Miller: How do you get to those 200 and it's 256?, like if you're at spot 300, how do you get down to that spot? Ryan: Yeah, it depends. It's really specific on the categories. You know, the one other element when we're talking about keywords and search volumes on Walmart is there's not as many long tail keywords. The keywords just don't go as long. So you're probably going to see a significant drop off on volumes after some of the major keywords in a lot of categories. Maybe long tails, around two to three keywords long, are going to start dropping off significantly. As kind of a frame of reference, we would say, if you can find keywords up over, if you're finding 10 keywords in your category that are relevant to you, up over 7000 in search volume, that's pretty good. There's. There are ones way bigger, but identifying those to go for to get in the top 256, you may pretty quickly already appear there. I would say pick your, maybe not the biggest keyword to put in your title right away, but maybe that second tier keyword to put it in your title and some other places, and then plan on changing it over time as you grow. But some ways to drive traffic you know whether a lot of sellers already have, whether it's influencer traffic, whether it's Google ads traffic, whatever else, if you already have a traffic funnel that's leaning to DTC or anywhere else. Consider splitting a little bit of that traffic over for a period of time to Walmart at least, and you'll be rewarded. A lot of the signals of external traffic are rewarded heavily on Walmart behaviors like certainly purchase, but even behaviors like we've, you know, add to cart purchase. Any of those elements are signals that register with the algorithm and help sending signals of relevancy to get you in that top 256. The biggest one being someone searches, finds your products and purchases. So anything you can do to do that is a big help to get that going. Carrie Miller: All right, that's very interesting. And then also, you've mentioned conquesting as something everyone should be doing. Could you just explain what that is on Walmart and you know how people can start utilizing this? Ryan: Historically you could not do brand cron questing on Walmart. You can't. You obviously can't put trademark terms in your listings. That's just a copyright issue but an advertising. Until just very recently you haven't even been able to brand conquest. Really, there's kind of some ways around that. But now you can kind of the headline. So what we'd recommend is for those brands that are starting to show some relevancy or do things and you know there are heavily branded search terms on Walmart. We've noticed Walmart is leans typically more in a lot of categories towards branded search terms with high volume. So this has been untapped opportunity for a lot of brands. Unless you're running an auto campaign to get you, you get buy box placement, you know, just under their buy box on their PDP. So now you can actually set up a manual search, a manual campaign, and you have to have, you have to use exact match keywords and you can use. Just put in every variation of that brand name in there and you can win. You can't win position 1 or 2 with that brand, but you can get beyond position 2. In most cases you're eligible to actually show up in grid for their terms and so that's one that most brands that have not been playing defense as much may still be asleep on right now. So it's a good opportunity, at least for now, until some of those brands start allocating defensive budget in that way, those brands will be again because of relevancy and how it impacts how much you have to pay to win versus someone else that's more relevant. Brands are going to effectively get a discount for defending themselves because they're the most relevant one, so they're going to have to pay less than you to defend. But if they're not really bidding on it at all, this is a great opportunity. Carrie Miller: I think that's really exciting because I haven't actually done that strategy at all yet. So I'm going to definitely get on that today and see what I can find, because I have found so many branded search terms that I think would be really great to target in the past, but I wasn't able to. So that's really good, okay, so let's go ahead and get into questions from the audience. So I'm going to start with this question here. It says I have two questions. So what type of keywords are better for sponsored and manual campaigns? And I guess that's one. Ryan: I would kind of say what I said earlier probably is it depends on what stage of the lifecycle you're in at Walmart. So if you're trying to build relevancy and it's a new product without much sales history yet, I would probably recommend starting with exact and maybe phrase in a manual campaign of those kind of second tier keywords. Go after the long, the longer tail, build the relevancy there. Every conversion is going to help with relevancy of other keywords in your listings. So begin and stair step up. Another great strategy is at the same time you might want to often will will wait a little bit to do auto campaigns or maybe do it also at the at the same time that we're starting some manuals, but with a low spin threshold, so it doesn't go crazy and pick unirrelevant keywords, irrelevant keywords, but using ultimately gold. Also be using automatic keyword campaigns or automatic campaigns to harvest the performing keywords into your manual and put those into exact match. And then the last tip I would give is using the bid modifiers in manual campaigns to really kind of take over. If you have auto campaigns as well, manual campaigns are going to perform really well in search grid and so you want your manual campaigns really doing the work for those high, high volume keywords in your grid versus maybe your auto. So that'd be a few of the tips I'd give you. Carrie Miller: Let's go to the next one. It says I heard you say that more 1P sellers for more might be moving to 3P. Is that good or bad for other sellers? Ryan: I certainly thought I didn't. I don't recall saying it, but I made up. Yeah, so the Walmart basically is leveraging the third party marketplace for a lot of reasons. One of those is historically with 1P Brands, meaning brands that Walmart has entered into a contract relationship with, where they're owning inventory and setting the retail price, those things. One of the ways that Walmart wanted to test out more of the assortment with a brand, develop a meaningful relationship, would be they would select a small subset of the products, get them in-store and distribute or online and Walmart would manage everything. Then they used to tell brands that they would do. Another program called DSV. I won't go into all of it, but it was still in an owned relationship. What we've seen is a shift more towards merchants, buyers, telling brands to put the remainder of their catalog on the third party marketplace now that it's become more mature. Is it good or bad for sellers? On one hand, good in that as you have more recognizable established brands continue to increase their assortment on the marketplace. That's bringing more shoppers, more eyeballs to the marketplace. That's good for everybody. Bad, meaning more competitive. Advertising on keywords, certainly retail media ad spend we've seen increase year over year as Walmart grows the program. That's the natural life cycle of any platform. It will certainly get more competitive. Margin's may decrease over time. If you maybe have had your business model has been dropshipping and just trying to find those places where 1P brands are there's gaps, where 1P brands aren't really owning the marketplace. I still think there's a lot of opportunity there on the third party marketplace, but they're starting to catch wind of it on Walmart as well. There's challenges there bit of both. I think there's plenty of opportunity as Walmart's marketplace continues to grow. I don't think we need to be worried right now about, are you getting squeezed out of any opportunity? This is still early stages on Walmart's marketplace. Carrie Miller: I agree there's still tons of opportunity. The next thing is is there a way to get your products from WFS or Walmart probably into in-store? Do you have to apply or be invited to have your products in Walmart stores? I think this is a good question because it seems like with open call, it's just US products, but is there a way for products that are made in other countries? If you can expand on just that whole process, I think a lot of people are curious about this. Ryan: Yeah, you mentioned open call, which is for US manufacturers. There's been different times where I think two years ago, two to three years ago, they gave FirstBot at the Apple to Walmart marketplace sellers. They got to apply first and got an opportunity. Outside of that opportunity there is if you're growing an account, if you're seeing sales and showing volume, showing growth. Some of the stepping stones would be identifying if you could get an account manager or a strategic account manager to work with on your account, identifying category manager, somebody else to begin discussions with. That starts with usually getting opportunities turned on and growth opportunities, whether that's seasonal promotions, whether that's flash picks, other elements as you continue to invest and show performance there. Walmart's team they are brick and mortar team and they're a marketplace team or basically one team. A lot of buyers and merchants will look across their whole category, even on the third party marketplace, as they're evaluating opportunity. These conversations could happen and you could ask for an introduction. We've had clients that have just a category manager. Somebody else has reached out and said would you be interested in talking with a merchant about potential opportunity for in-store? There's a lot of pathways. I don't think there's a defined Walmart's probably not going to lay out for you. Here's how every marketplace seller can contact a merchant but continue to invest in sales and growth on Walmart marketplace and those conversations certainly can happen. Carrie Miller: Yeah, that's exactly what I always hear from Walmart directly. They say to prove it on the marketplace, basically All right. Next, this is a good question: Any insights on the new SEM feature? Will that feature help ranking or index on keywords used as a GG search, maybe Google search? Ryan: We've had a few that we've worked, we've tested out. Sem. Vertic is still out right now in the early stages. Any kind of early testing. As far as depending on the goal, if the goal was measured by, do we see direct conversion at a higher row, as than you would for sponsored products, which is lower in the ads funnel, more towards conversion anyway than earlier consideration steps in the funnel. It's a lower conversion at this point but there are potential advantages. I'm still waiting to clarify this element. I believe it's true, but again because we haven't worked with a lot of resellers or people that are competing with others for their own buy box. I did hear in a recent webinar and I haven't been able to go back and fact check again by one of the product developers for SEM that one of the impacts of SEM is that you could run SEM even when you're not presently in the buy box and you could drive traffic to your instance to get the sale. For those who are struggling to win buy box, that may be a pathway to getting more sales and conversions by ads aren't going to serve on marketplace when you don't have buy box but if you're running SEM. It sounded like and again I need to. I try and fact check everything before I say it and I heard it said once and I want to make sure I heard it specifically, but that definitely perked me up and I need to go back and verify. I believe what was communicated was you can run SEM through Walmart when you're not in the buy box and direct to your instance of you owning the buy box when traffic gets there. That's one opportunity. Carrie Miller: Let's see. I've only been selling on Amazon since October. I have 9 reviews and 1 seller feedback. Is this enough to apply to sell on Walmart? Ryan: The exact criteria aren't shared publicly as to what is in that decision factor. There's a lot of factors. I'll see you all next video. What ultimate? I think that the safest thing to say is what Walmart's looking for is that you have established yourself as a company that shows that you're making good products, strong history of seller satisfaction, so customer support, and that you're a legitimate company looking to do business. The other factors they're looking for are your products, a meaningful addition to the marketplace? So are you adding products to the marketplace that makes sense to them? That's a really broad filter and subjective maybe. So I can't tell you what that looks like. If you have 9 reviews, maybe on one product and it hasn't been as long I'd probably have a lot more questions as to why you want to jump to Walmart at the moment. Maybe you see the opportunity and that might be the primary marketplace that you want to pivot to. Those are my initial thoughts. It'd be hard to answer further without knowing more context. Carrie, I don't know if you have any things. Carrie Miller: Well, they said something, too, about that. They have one product with multiple variations, and I actually have seen other sellers that have one product with multiple variations get on there as well because it's a new, interesting product or really something that would work well on Walmart. So it is really dependent on that, and I've seen some people get on very easily, having not sold for very long, and then others have a harder time. So it is kind of interesting how it's a little bit subjective on there. Ryan: And what? Carrie Miller: Definitely want to be established. Make sure all of your stuff is matching. That's the biggest thing. Your address needs to match and everything needs to be tight on your application. But yeah, anything else that you want to add. Ryan: Yeah, no, sorry for stepping on you there. Yeah, no, that was basically what I was going to say too. If you get an initial reject, don't assume that is because a human looked at your application and determined you were not a fit. A lot of the rejections can happen because the bot has looked at, maybe your information, has did not match between what you submitted and what maybe is included in your business documentation. To illustrate the point is we talked about 1P brands coming over to a three P marketplace at the request of merchants. We still get  1P brands that get rejected when they've applied on their own to 3P marketplace after they've been through even more rigorous vetting because they're in a 1P relationship already. So the bots may trip on it and it's worth reaching back out to try and appeal if you need. Even if you get the message of there is no appeal, there are usually ways to find out. Carrie Miller: And I'm going to just take one last question. We've had a lot of amazing questions. We're kind of running out of time here, so this one is what bidding strategies have you found most effective for optimizing Walmart PPC campaigns, and why? Ryan: Big question yeah. Carrie Miller: That's all I'd like to just answer. Ryan: We could do a whole another episode on this one Bidding strategy found most effective optimizing PPC campaigns. So depends again what your goal. What do you mean by optimizing? Do you mean optimizing for growth, which is going to be a lower TACos, ACoS, low RoAS, potentially because you're looking to increase market share and it's a longer play? In that case, that sponsored brand, sponsored video. I didn't talk about sponsored video. If you're looking for what's the quick wins with a higher ROAS, things like look in your category, look at the search terms Our other brands are already using sponsored video. There'll be one placement on mobile or on desktop for that search term on any page, and if you're not seeing those, that's low hanging fruit. I would go for a sponsored brand. You've got to be brand registered first, but once you're brand registered, you can create sponsored video ads. So that's one way out. Optimize I would just make sure that to optimize a PPC campaign, I think that the basics of making sure your listing is relevant and make sure your listing is optimized first, and so that'd be one major factor that we see just a lot of brands miss. They think they've got the bid strategy right and that they've got the campaign architecture correct. But if you don't have high relevancy already for those keywords, you're not going to take a lot of ground. So in general I would say you want to, in any given campaign, not oversaturate your ad groups and not oversaturate with keywords in each ad group. So maybe up to five keywords in an ad group and maybe three to five ad groups in a campaign so that you can be tracking where that spend is really going and tweaking from there. But then I'd also say the biggest level ups we've seen is when you combine really the PPC optimization with organic. So blend consider offsite traffic advertising as well in some way to blend and improve the performance of PPC. So PPC will get cheaper for you when your relevancy grows and you'll be able to maintain it more. So that's often an efficient way to optimize a bit more. No otherwise to that. But I'll end there for now. Carrie Miller: Thank you again so much for joining us. I think this has been a really fantastic episode full of a lot of information for everyone. I'm sure everyone that's listening will want to go back and listen to this again. But thanks again for all of your expertise in sharing the secretive strategies and we really appreciate you and we'll probably hope to have you on again another time soon.

In this enlightening episode of podcast, Ryan engages in a candid conversation with Crystal Tosh. They explore the evolving landscape of video production, emphasizing the importance of authentic communication, understanding client needs, and leveraging technology like ChatGPT.  Key topics covered include: The significance of face-to-face interactions in building trust. The challenges and benefits of using AI tools like ChatGPT. The essence of simplifying communication for better understanding. The humorous side of AI-generated content. Key Takeaways You'll grasp the importance of authentic, face-to-face communication in building trust and understanding client needs. You'll discover the potential and pitfalls of using AI tools like chat GPT in video production. You'll appreciate the value of simplifying messages and the unexpected humor AI can bring. About Crystal Tosh Crystal Tosh is a marketer, SoTrue co-founder, and advocate for animal welfare and the environment. With degrees in psychology and public health, she crafts effective marketing strategies by understanding human behavior and empathy. Her love for nature and animals drives her nonprofit work, while her dedication to ethical marketing ensures a compassionate connection with audiences. Get ready to be inspired for a sustainable and compassionate world with Crystal as your speaker. In This Episode [00:00] Welcome to the show! [04:12] Meet Crystal Tosh [06:15] Crystal's marketing agency [07:58] Authentic connection [10:30] AI's influence on social media [12:13] Using video content for a video business [16:12] Be true to yourself [25:23] Finding your ideal clients [33:59] Becoming a people-person [40:21] Listen to the right voices [44:04] Connect with Crystal [45:20] Outro Quotes "When you are, like, literally within hugging distance of me, look out, because here I come." - Ryan "Tell it to me like I'm in third grade. And I'm like, oh my gosh, yeah, this sounds so much more like me." - Ryan "You just get all of the non-verbals and you get an opportunity to really listen on a whole other level." - Ryan "If people don't trust you, if potential clients don't trust you, you're going to be... it doesn't have to be hard." - Ryan Guest Links Find Crystal Tosh online Follow Crystal Tosh on Instagram | Facebook Links Download the PDF resource guide to Unlock the Power of AI Join the Grow Your Video Business Facebook Group  Follow Ryan Koral on Instagram Follow Grow Your Video Business on Instagram Check out the full show notes

Join us LIVE at Collibra's DC'22, where we talk about the importance of data governance with Joe Wallace, senior manager for Digital Asset Governance, Adobe, and Ryan Galloway, senior vice president for Moody's Corporation. How can companies improve their data quality and decision-making processes? Listen as they explore some of the challenges associated with data governance and share tips for overcoming them. Tune in if you want to learn to integrate effective and ethical data governance in your company.Here are three reasons why you should listen to this episode:Find out how Adobe and Moody's Corporation integrate data governance.Learn how Adobe and Moody's Corporation utilize data governance to achieve their company goals.Discover how data governance can help companies succeed in today's market.Episode Highlights[03:09] Moody's Corporation and Data Governance Ryan: “I always say push versus pull. It's a journey. You have to start there.”Moody's Corporation welcomed data governance to their company because they believe it would be helpful for business. As a result, they found an advocate for data governance and thought of using it to solve business problems.Any company interested in integrating data governance should consider building the following: standards and policies, business partners, advocacy, and real governance.Once these are in place, form a data governance team to help solve real data-related business problems.Focus on the mantra, “success breeds success.”[04:13] Digital Asset Governance and Data GovernanceJoe: “Fish with a smaller fish to get a bigger fish.”Adobe started small and ended big by building data governance around the company's goals.It grew exponentially as more and more people heard and saw the data-related efforts the company was doing.The people could enrich the company because it dedicated its time to guiding them, providing them with playbooks, and facilitating their work.[07:16] Data, Water, and CakeJoe believes that data is like water. You trust the source that the water is clean.He adds that data is a component of a cake. The top layer where the frosting sits pertains to the business layer (e.g. process flows, business rules), the one people see.Below the frosting are the data products. The final layer is the data lineage.The three layers compose every company's data governance. They are assets that draw customers in and protect them.Data governance should always be customer-centric.[10:34] The Future Of Data GovernanceSociety has moved from wanting more data to trying to solve the problem of excess data. Hence, Joe believes that over the next ten years, people will start labeling and organizing data.Joe: “The groundwork is there. But I think there's just gonna be more and more and more and more data.”Ryan agrees that there is a ton of data in society today. So, the challenge for people now is defining meaningful and not meaningful is critical.He adds that automation will improve. Scanning databases and grading data lineage could become automated in the future.Ryan: "You're never done with data governance. We must realize this isn't going away. This is something we're going to have to continue doing."About Joe and RyanJoe Wallace is the senior manager...

This episode of the Live Better Seller Better Podcast features Ryan Walsh, Founder and CEO at RepVue. Having a process ensures that companies attract the best talents for the job, but the same goes for reps looking to join organizations.By using metrics and data, hiring companies can match with interested reps which have the optimal skill sets for the job at hand. Ryan talks about 7 metrics that companies can ask their potential hires to rank.These metrics are base comp, incentive comp structure, culture and leadership, product market fit, diversity and inclusion, lead flow, and professional development. This transparency in goals, which also flows from company to hire, sets the stage for alignment and eventual success.SHOW NOTESHIGHLIGHTSAttract the best talent with greenfield opportunitiesEmployees rank 7 priorities in joining a companyRetain talent with transparencyPatience is key and intention vs attentionQUOTESRyan: "Our goal is to shine a light on companies that are providing an exceptionally positive experience to their employees. Our goal is to highlight those types of companies for sales professionals so that they can get into those roles."Ryan: "You'll be way better if you know where you've really had success and double down a little bit on that." Ryan: "The tech stack is important. I think autonomy is important. I think how transparent is leadership about everything. I think expectations minus reality equals disappointment. There's a literal mathematical formula in there, and you can apply it to hiring."You can find out more about Ryan in the links below:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryancwalsh/Website: https://www.repvue.com/

Book Your Free Revenue First Podcast Strategy here!Get Your Free Dial Session here!Want Your Reps Hitting Quota in 2022? Get Your Wingman Free Trial HERE!HIGHLIGHTSFrom skateboarding to marketingKeeping the creative juices flowingRyan's unique strategy in prospectingUtilizing call out videos and surprising resultsTips for creating prospecting videos with low resourcesThe formula to prospecting videosQUOTESRyan: “A lot of the times I'd come up with a good idea. I'd repeat the same idea, I would just change the inputs.”Ryan: “Make a whole campaign around it, grab a list of top 10 accounts to try to break into, come up with one really good idea and go repeat it 10 times and personalize it a little bit more about the person than your company you're offering and work from there.”Ryan: “Let's face it, you can write the greatest email in the world, and you're only gonna get a certain open rate.”Ryan: “You have to do more than one step. The whole reason you're doing this is to make your cold email, your social follow up, your InMail and your cold calling, all that stuff more interesting. If you do the first thing, something really cool. All the other parts just kind of fall into place.”Ryan: “If you can find something that you have in common with the prospect, you'll have a much higher conversion rate in response than if you just randomly pick something that's about where they work and their role.”Learn more about Ryan in the link below: LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/ryanmoharaWebsite - https://leadiq.com/Twitter - ryoharaLearn more about Collin in the link below: LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/collin-saleshustle/Also, you can join our community by checking out @salescast.community. If you're a sales professional looking to take your career to greater heights, please visit us at https://salescast.co/ and set a call with Collin and Chris. 

In this episode I give a quick recap of my interview with Ryan Reger including: - The 3 online business models and which one is best for beginners- Why most businesses fail and what to do about it- How you can easily write and publish a book  And so much more...  In November of 2008 Ryan Reger found himself without a job after managing an unsuccessful congressional campaign. He did not know how he would support his soon bride-to-be, Melane. He didn't want a "real job," but desired to start an online business.By God's grace, Ryan and Melane have built successful businesses on Amazon, eBay, and their own website. Ryan's true passion is helping others build their own businesses and he is accomplishing that goal through his books and his growing consultant business.Click Here to connect with Ryan*************************************************************You will never maximize your potential on your own so I'm personally inviting you to come and join me in the private Extraordinary Man Facebook group so you can level up your business and your life. Just Click Here to join the Extraordinary Man private Facebook group. Iron sharpens iron and this is the #1 place for you to connect with me and other like minded men who are on a mission to maximize their potential. My goal is to help you become the man God created you to be in all areas of your life. So come and join us in the Facebook group and upgrade your business and your life.

In November of 2008 Ryan Reger found himself without a job after managing an unsuccessful congressional campaign. He did not know how he would support his soon bride-to-be, Melane. He didn't want a "real job," but desired to start an online business.By God's grace, Ryan and Melane have built successful businesses on Amazon, eBay, and their own website. Ryan's true passion is helping others build their own businesses and he is accomplishing that goal through his books and his growing consultant business.In this episode, we discuss:- The 3 online business models and which one is best for beginners- Why most businesses fail and what to do about it- How you can easily write and publish a book  And so much more...  Click Here to connect with Ryan**************************************************You will never maximize your potential on your own so I'm personally inviting you to come and join me in the private Extraordinary Man Facebook group so you can level up your business and your life. Just Click Here to join the Extraordinary Man private Facebook group. Iron sharpens iron and this is the #1 place for you to connect with me and other like minded men who are on a mission to maximize their potential. My goal is to help you become the man God created you to be in all areas of your life. So come and join us in the Facebook group and upgrade your business and your life.

Welcome back to the Candlelit Tales Podcast, and back to the Battle Rage Series. This year we decided to choose lesser known characters from the Ulster Cycle, and tell their most interesting stories. This is the story of Findchoem, who is mostly remembered for her relationships to the heroes of the Ulster Cycle. She was related to Conchubar Mac Nessa through their father, Cathbad, but grew up in Connaught with her mother and her brother, Cet. She was married to the warrior poet of Ulster, Amairgin. She wet-nursed Cuchulainn in his infancy. And she was the mother of Ulster's other great warrior, Conall Cearnach. This is her story. This story is told by Sorcha. Music is by Oisín Ryan and it is produced by Oisín Ryan You might recognise the characters in this series from the Táin saga. These stories stand alone, linked by one connection: the different manifestations of their Battle Rage. This podcast is proudly sponsored by the people who donate to us each month via https://www.patreon.com/candlelittales and anyone who sends us a once-off donation through the Paypal button on our website http://candlelittales.ie/ #candlelittales #candlelittalespodcast #keepherlit #keephercandlelit #storytelling #livemusic #mythology #irishmythology #mythicalireland #patreon #thankyou #subscribe #youtube #spotify #amazon https://open.spotify.com/show/2102WuUUe9Jl6cGXNwQEKf https://soundcloud.com/candlelittales https://twitter.com/candlelit_tales?lang=en https://www.facebook.com/candlelittales https://www.instagram.com/candlelittales https://vimeo.com/user52850249 https://music.amazon.co.uk/podcasts/00d5c29b-ee1a-4078-aacf-62e1a94522dc/candlelit-tales-irish-mythology-podcast

In Q&A 4, I tackle patron questions about Hueco round 2 and other goals for 2022, my plans for V12 and 5.14, how my trip to Leavenworth went and plans to return, my favorite features in the van, dating on the road, my remote working setup, what I've learned from nearly 100 episodes of the podcast, and making sense of conflicting advice. *Treat this episode like a buffet! Listen straight through or jump around as you like. I organized these questions into categories and added timestamps below.Support the Podcast:thenuggetclimbing.com/supportWe are supported by these amazing BIG GIVERS:Bryan Fast, Leo Franchi, Michael Roy, and David LahaieBecome a Patron:patreon.com/thenuggetclimbingWebsite Links:Top ListsSteven's FavoritesShow Notes:  thenuggetclimbing.com/episodes/qa-4Nuggets:0:00 – Intro and updates7:04 – My Climbing / Training / Goals: 7:14 – Oskar: Tips for night climbing?14:07 – Taylor: Plans for Hueco round 2?16:53 – Casey: Hueco tick list? And what about Rifle?17:57 – Casey: Do you prefer to write your own training programs or to have a coach?18:46 – Casey: Outdoor vs. indoor bouldering performance? Does it matter?21:27 – Casey: Do you like night sessions? Is it hard to fall asleep after?22:52 – Jimmy: Favorite endurance workout on a home wall? 25:43 – Karl: Do you think kneepads change grades?33:12 – Tim: Do you ever climb easy stuff for fun?35:44 – Tyler: Party tricks vs. helpful training?38:14 – Tyler: Dream areas or routes in Canada?38:55 – Andrew: What makes a limit boulder problem “limit”? What makes a perfect repeat “perfect”?42:32 – Shanna: What will you implement from the PCC?46:24 – Jordan: Have you dabbled in trad or multi-pitch climbing?49:44 – Eric: What is the softest 5.14 in the US? Why aren't you trying it now?51:09 – Nolan: How have you moved past plateaus?53:08 – Nolan: Have you been on JDI yet?54:35 – Conor: Can you tell us about your early climbing and training? What would you change?58:20 – RJB: Where are you on your climbing journey?1:00:57 – Luke: Goals for 2022? How do you go about goalsetting?1:09:06 – Drew: Did you come back to try The Practitioner? And how did it go?1:12:55 – David: Goals in Leavenworth?1:14:37 – Nutrition / Weight Gain:1:14:45 – Karl: Does starch count as sugar?1:17:33 – Angelo: I'm embracing my body type and getting stronger, but when will I stop gaining weight?1:23:15 – Vanlife / Current Lifestyle / Personal Life:1:23:24 – Tyler/Ethan/Luke: Favorite van features? What did you bring but haven't used? 1:28:03 – Tyler: Can you describe work station in your van? What is your internet setup?1:31:50 – Matt: Any mice in the van?1:32:54 – Jordan: How long have you had your van? Thoughts on dirtbagging now vs. pre-van?1:34:47 – Michael: Pee bottle tips?1:36:54 – Logan: Why did you choose your van?1:39:27 – Howard: Health insurance as a vanlifer?1:41:53 – Nolan: Have you settled into the lifestyle as a full-time vanlifer podcast superstar yet?1:43:59 – Desiree: What are some favorite experiences you get to have living on the road? Pitfalls? Tips?1:49:29 – John: How do you handle long winter nights in the van?1:50:42 – Alexandra: How is a dating life when living in a van?1:53:56 – Shanna: Are you living in the van nonstop? Do you think you can do it indefinitely?1:56:49 – John: Coffee or tea? Method of brewing? Any tats?1:57:45 – Brian: Vanlife product you just can't get behind?1:58:42 – Brian: What have you given up for vanlife that you miss?1:59:35 – Brian: What alternate life would you be content with?2:00:41 – Daniel: Do you still play video games?2:03:26 – Liam: Did you save up money before quitting your job, or say fuck it? Also, what is your climbing story?2:06:30 – Jonathan: What is your relationship to mindfulness or meditation? How do they affect your life and climbing?2:10:52 – Fun / Funny / Other:2:11:00 – Tyler S: Weirdest smell you've had in the van?2:12:03 – Tyler S: Most ridiculous outfit you've climbed in? 2:13:27 – Tyler B: Any plans to head out east to climb on southern sandstone? Dream climbing trip?2:14:49 – Tyler B: Who would you like to spend a climbing with?2:15:42 – Brian: Other hobbies?2:17:21 – Brian: Who would you take on a multi-pitch climb?2:18:18 – Podcasting / What I've Learned From Episodes:2:18:30 – Ryan: You've put out nearly 100 episodes—How do you deal with conflicting advice from all of these badass climbers? 2:24:22 – Tyler: If you could collaborate with any podcast, what would it be?2:25:30 – Tyler: Top 3 podcast guests?2:26:36 – Finn: What interview do you find yourself organically thinking back to the most?  2:28:23 – Garrett: Has the podcast made you a better communicator? Has it made you more confident when meeting people?2:31:30 – Wrapup

Ryan: You have another job? Michael: What I do between 5:30 pm and 1 am is no one’s business but mine and my other business. Jim: Are you a cocktail waitress? What happens when you take the Dunder Mifflin staff out of the office? That’s what we’re looking at this week on the Michael Scott Podcast Company! We go through all of the characters’ second jobs and side hustles, including Michael’s time at the call center, Toby writing Chad Flenderman novels, and Creed selling fake IDs with a laminating machine that he swiped from the sheriff’s station. Then we head to the conference room to build our Office staff to start a new paper company. Tripadvisor is the lifeblood of the agro-tourism industry, and The Office is the lifeblood of the Michael Scott Podcast company.   Support our show and become a member of Scott's Tots on Patreon! For only $5/month, Tots get exclusive access to our monthly Mailbag episodes (+ the video version!) where we casually pick through every single message/question/comment we receive. On top of that, a portion of all show proceeds are donated every  month to organizations that help fund education opportunities for minority students. Help us accomplish the mission that Michael Scott could not.

Text LEARNERS to 44222 for more... Full show notes at www.LearningLeader.com Twitter/IG: @RyanHawk12 The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk Episode #400 with Keith Hawk & AJ Hawk Notes: I sourced questions from members of my Leadership Circle, friends, listeners, and colleagues for this episode... How does Keith continue to feel impactful after retirement? KH: "It's like I have a paper route. I work a little bit in the mornings, get my work done, and then I can go have fun with my friends. I work on a few boards, do voice over work, and know how to hit the post." What has AJ learned from working with Pat McAfee? "I learned to trust my instincts and not try to be somebody I'm not." What's the best way to make introductions? AJ: "Text (message) intros are so much better. They are more personal." From Leadership Circle member, Amanda Wilson: "What habit do you admire the most in each other/best attribute?" Pistol about AJ: "He's an unbelievable teammate. He has earned the respect of all his peers. I respect his intensity to prepare." Pistol about Ryan: "A huge preparation guy. His focus on other people. He has more of an outer focus now. And a huge intensity around growth." "Gotta change, Gotta grow." AJ about Pistol: Consistency. He wakes up early. I never saw him asleep. He never made us do anything. I want to live up to that standard. I don't want my kids to see me asleep. And universally, everyone loves him." AJ about Ryan: "You're a mini-version of Pistol with your consistency. So detail oriented. Such a leader and not afraid to hold people accountable. People have confidence that you'll take them where they want to go." Ryan about Pistol: Absolute selflessness. Reminds me of my wife, Miranda. A willingness to always help others succeed and will do anything for them. Ryan about AJ: A relentless work ethic. A drive to be there for the people who depend on him. Whenever I talk with teammates of AJ, they all say the same thing, "That's my guy. I know he'll be where he's supposed to be when he's supposed to be there. I can depend on him." He shows up to work everyday and gets it done. Being selfless: Pistol - "My success is better and richer if it follows other people's success." From Jeff Leung (Sr. Engineer at Facebook): "As the father of two young boys, I would love to hear how you and your brother AJ grew up in a way that you cheer for each other more than compete?" A mutual love and respect for each others work. An appreciation for what the other does. From Doug Meyer, Co-Founder/CEO of Brixey & Meyer: "What was your reaction when you heard Ryan was  leaving a high paying job at a large company to take a substantial pay cut to start a Leadership Advisory practice at Brixey & Meyer?" Pistol: "Joy, fun, fulfillment. I was so excited for him." AJ: "Of course. He's gonna kill it." Give an example how you handled when one of your kids wanted to do something but you thought it was a mistake? "When Ryan was at Miami, I probably pushed him too hard to transfer so that he would get another shot to be a starting QB after losing the job to Ben Roethlisberger. I sometimes have thoughts that he could have moved positions and become Julian Edelman." From Nate DeMars (Founder/Owner of Pursuit) - "You guys have all moved onto what I guess you could consider second careers recently… How do you approach starting over as a novice in a new field?" "There is no excuse to not learn everything about what you want to do. There is so much out there to read and watch and people to talk to. If you don't learn it, it's your fault." Find something you care about, that you're passionate about, and pursue that. "Deal with imposter syndrome when you're new. There's never been a better time to learn something new." Life experiences that have shaped you. Pistol, what experiences shaped AJ/Ryan? Playing for the legendary Bob Gregg and Ron Ullery. They molded you and helped you: Faced the requirement to prepare a lot Learned how to be a great teammate Learned to compete hard Learned to take tough, critical feedback, became coachable Learned how to be a leader How to deal with great teammates, but bad coaches? AJ: "It doesn't help to complain and be negative. Be quiet. Do your job." And strive to learn from those who aren't good at their job so that you don't repeat what they do. The Rex Caswell exercise: When you're new, write in a journal in two columns. One is for the great actions of your boss and the other is for the not helpful behaviors. Keep it with you and review it as you continue to get promoted. Pistol: "Wrap yourself in the mission. Don't wrap yourself in negativity." "It's the duty of the leader to be in a good mood." We conducted our first draft. The topic: Our favorite sports movies (listen to hear who we picked).

There are seven different types of people that you're going to find coming to your site. And if you can understand who these people are in each one of their buckets, you're going to be able to help each one of them convert because they're all going to look at your site a little bit differently. So how do we understand who they are? And what do we need want to know how do we convert these people? Jon's got the answers! TRANSCRIPT: Announcer: You're listening to Drive and Convert, a podcast about helping online brands to build a better e-commerce growth engine, with Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow. Ryan: Well, Jon, welcome to the Drive and Convert podcast. You've done a lot of writing, to say the least. You've got some phenomenal content out there on the internet and as somebody that reads most of your content and speaks to you often, it's always good to read. So if you're listening to this, go find Jon and all of his content on his website. I highly recommend it. You will come away as a smarter human. But one of the fascinating concepts that at least for me seems fairly unique to your brain and at least the content you're putting out is the idea of there are seven different types of people that you're going to find coming to your site. And if you can understand who these people are in each one of their buckets, you're going to be able to help each one of them convert because they're all going to look at your site a little bit differently or want to do slightly different things. But I guess step one is just, how do we understand who they are? And then we want to know how do we convert these people? We've got them to the site. We know who they are, now how do we convert them? So I'm excited to hear about this because I can never get enough insight into how to make my businesses and my clients' businesses work better. But can you kick us off just by telling us who are the seven personas that you're seeing on the internet coming to websites? Jon: Well, thank you, first of all, for the kind of compliments on the content. I'm blushing over here if you can't see that. Yes, there are seven and a lot of people think, seven that's a lot. But the reality here is there might be some overlap in these as well, right? And these are all different types of people that you really need to address on your site. And so many people don't do that, that it really led me to write this content. So the first set of folks coming to your site are what I call lookers, right? These are people who are just looking. They're browsers, if you will, right? They're not after any one thing in particular, they're having fun just looking around. They want to see what you offer that maybe will catch your attention. Honestly, they may even have been just searching around Google for different types of products and ended up at your site, not necessarily by mistake, but they ended up there and now they're just looking at what you have to offer. Really you just need to understand that not everybody who approaches your site's going to buy. Most e-comm sites know that, right? Because their conversion rate's not a hundred percent or else we wouldn't exist. But the reality here is that you still need to address this audience. A second one to be thinking about is bargain hunters. These are people who are only at your site because you're having a sale or some type of offer. Ryan: Hopefully, it's not a discount. Jon: Exactly. That would be my point of view. But that's what they're looking for there. They're trained, as we have said, several times, they're trained to look for that sale. And so there are people, and there is a segment of folks who will only buy if something's at a perceived bargain, right? And they really want to see if they can find the bargain. Sometimes it's the thrill of finding the bargain that really gets to them. The third you really want to think about it as the buyers. Now, it seems pretty obvious, but some people are really on a mission. They know exactly what they want and they're there to get it. So they searched for the model number, they found your site, and they are ready to buy. And so you really want to facilitate that. A fourth is researchers. Some folks are just researching. They have a general idea of what they're after, but they want to compare those options and the prices. So, a lot of people will go to Amazon for this, but now, a lot of people are doing that on brand sites as well. They go to Amazon and they find the product they want but then they end up on your brand site after they've done that research. They find the model number on Amazon, they Google it to find more details about the brand behind the product. Amazon isn't always the best at having product details, right? So a lot of times you'll end up on a brand site trying to do that and that's what these folks are. Ryan: Now, what would be the big differentiator on the researchers and the lookers? Because a lot of similarities between the two, but what would be the key differentiators in your mind? Jon: The key differentiator is the researcher knows what they want. They know what they're looking for. The lookers are ... It's kind of like wandering around a mall versus going right into the Apple store. You're at the mall but you beeline it for one shop because you know that you need something from that shop. Where you might just go to the mall to hang out, right? If that's even a thing, post-COVID one day, we'll see. Ryan: Someday we'll get back to a mall, maybe. Jon: New customers is another one. People don't really think about that often. And this is really where some visitors are just going to be new customers. They enjoyed their last visit. Maybe they were a looker on their last visit and now they're there to find out more and potentially become a new customer. Perhaps these are people who you should really be thinking about post-purchase, like they just purchased. What happens at that point, right? So these could be people who are buying from you the first time. And it's an audience you really need to be thinking about because you need to make them feel welcomed and appreciated. One that a lot of people don't think about is dissatisfied customers. Everybody has them. I don't care if your net promoter scores is perfect or you don't hear about these complaints. Everybody has a dissatisfied customer or more. And that's okay. These people are there for a number of reasons and it might not always be that bad. Maybe they're just dissatisfied because it didn't fit the way they thought it would, but they still like the product, they're there to return or exchange. For some reason, a previous purchase didn't suit them and now they want customer service. And the goal here is to make it easy for them to get that and perhaps even do self-service where possible. And the last one, seven of seven, we blew right through these, but we'll dive into each in a second, but this is loyal customers. So some of these are your best customers. They come back, they love shopping with you. They love your product and then they're going to be repeat customers. So, that's the seven. To run them real quick, it's lookers, bargain hunters, buyers, researchers, new customers, dissatisfied customers, and loyal customers. Ryan: Got it. So we know what personas people are in, generally. And then are there ways outside of the types of traffic that you help decide who this one is on the site to do that, or is it, I just want to make sure the site works for all of them? Jon: You really want to make sure the site works for all of them. And I think that there's many ways to group people into these different types. As I said earlier, they could be multiple types. But I heard you say the word persona, and I think I really want to make clear that it's easy to get dragged into things like personas, or where people are in the sales funnel, or warm, hot, and cold leads and visitors, or any of those things that can really just take you down the rabbit hole if you will, right? And I see this all the time where we ask people, who's your ideal customer, and they give us an avatar of somebody that has flowcharts, and photos of Charlie, the avid runner, and his demographics, and preferences, and what soda he drinks, or what bottled water he prefers, and all of that stuff doesn't really matter. It's never really put to good use, especially when it comes to optimizing a website, because that guy, Charlie, the runner, he was generated in the mind of the brand. He's not an actual consumer, right? So what you really want to do here is just keep it simple. Really you just want to focus on better serving each of these. And by doing that, you're likely to increase your conversions for each of these. Additionally, if you go any deeper than that, you're unlikely to get started because you'll end up in this, as I said earlier, rabbit hole of trying to figure out who Charlie is. Well, Charlie, isn't going to be all seven of these, right? So don't worry about Charlie and don't worry about going so deep. Ryan: Because you might have your ... If you've done the persona thing as a brand, you could have your same persona being all of these types. And so at the same time, keep this very top level when you're looking at your site and trying to guide traffic and just do what Jon says at the end of the day. Jon: If the world only worked that way. I'll have you call my wife after this and tell her that too. Ryan: Yeah, you do the same for me when we're talking about driving traffic. Okay. But we've got to tell people how do we take these groups of traffic and these people and get them to take the action we want them to take on the site. Because I'm guessing to a degree, not all of them are the same conversion either. Jon: Very accurate. That's true. Ryan: So we've got to think about that as well. Like a disgruntled customer is probably different than a looker at the end of the day, as far as action. So guide our listeners and viewers around what that looks like and how you're seeing converting those people. Jon: Well, let's break them down one by one, shall we? So start with lookers, really is what I would recommend here. And I think the thing to be thinking about here is with lookers is you're going to catch your attention and get them to stop that just shopping and not browsing long enough to consider some type of offer or something that gets their attention, right? So if you know your customers well enough, which most brands listening to this will, they'll know what will entice their customers. And I'm not just talking about an offer or a special or deal or anything of that sense, I'm also saying what's that one feature that makes you unique and makes you stand out? What's the benefit of the product that's really going to hit home for these people? They're at your site because they had a pain or a problem they're trying to solve. And they think your products can help them solve that problem. So you really want to make sure that you're putting that right upfront to get these people's attention early. But know also, it could take a few sales to get these people in there, right? So don't be discouraged when you see the bounce rate up there because people are just looking and leaving. That's what they do. That's why I call them lookers. Ryan: I hate when people talk to me about bounce rate. Take your bounce rate to the bank. Have them tell you what that's worth. Jon: Yeah, it doesn't help, right? Ryan: No. Jon: And it's a metric so many people chase, I think, thinking, oh, I can get my bounce rate down. Okay, this one goes in with time on-site with me as well. So many people track time on-site and I think it's a false metric because if you think about it, I'm there to get my tasks done. I'm there because I want to buy this product, or even if I'm just looking around, I generally have an idea of what I'm doing at your site. I might just still be browsing, but I have an idea of why I'm there. The problem with this is if I'm there for 10 minutes, you've made my life really complicated. I'm there because I need something, I'm looking around, and then the problem is I can't find that or I got sucked into something and I'm there for 10 minutes. As opposed to, I would much rather have customers who are at my site for three minutes and buy, right? And then I have their information. I can continue to market to them at another opportunity. But if somebody is spending 10, 20 minutes on your site, we probably have some type of usability problem. Ryan: Well, and also I laughed when you started talking about catching their attention because I know you're going to tell people it is not a pop-up telling them to join your email list for 10% off your first order, especially if you're a looker. Jon: Yep. I agree with that. Ryan: That is not going to be a quality email. Jon: Not at all. But you do want to encourage them to get on your mailing list but not through a discount, not through a pop-up, really encourage them in other ways so that you can then follow up with them later. Maybe that's something like an upcoming new release that they might be interested in, right? You should be thinking about it in that way. Once you've kind of got their attention, then how are you going to continue to keep that attention and continue to market to them? This is where I hear you say all the time, you're happy to pay for ads and break-even knowing you're building your customer roster. And I think that this is a good opportunity to be thinking about that without actually converting for a sale, right? This is what we would call a micro-conversion, where they're doing something that's not actually an exchange of money. Ryan: Now I would venture a guess and you can probably correct me if I'm wrong, but lookers probably make up the largest portion of traffic to most e-comm sites. Jon: Yes. There's a reason that I put them first on the list. It's because it's going to be the vast majority. Ryan: So it's a vast majority. You've worked with some pretty large brands with the ability to test measure lots of different things. Top of mind, obviously on the fly because we didn't talk about this beforehand, but what's a good implementation of this catch your attention that you've seen implemented that caused the brand to continue to be able to grow and push these lookers further down the funnel? Jon: Yeah. So this is where things like we were just looking at a company that sells a bunch of different pants. The price point was like $128 for a pair of pants. And I was like, man, that's, that's kind of expensive. I'm just looking at these pants. I don't really need a pair of pants right now. But the reality is what caught my attention was that they are five times stronger than jeans and I can do a lot of different activities in them. And that caught my attention because now I'm thinking, "Wow, they're going to last a lot longer than jeans and I probably spent $100 on a pair of jeans." So what's 28 more dollars to have them last five times as long as jeans, right? So just something like that, the benefit is really going to hit that. And I'm the target audience for that site I was looking at. So, these lookers, they're likely, the vast majority of them should be your target audience. If you're working with Ryan in Logical Position, then you're driving qualified traffic. And so assuming you're driving qualified traffic and these lookers end up there, they're going to be within your demographic of who is your ideal customer, so then really it's all about connecting with them on the benefit. Ryan: Got it. Okay. I think that's a great thing. It's easy to execute for most brands, I think. Jon: Yeah, for sure. So we can also talk about for each of these how I would recommend converting these. And I think for the lookers, I would want to really just make sure the e-commerce site is easy to navigate and search because really that's what they're here to do, is just walk around the store, right? So make it easy. Don't put barriers in their way, help them get where they want to go, and give them a really excellent reason to give them that email address that we talked about or other contact information, and so you can build a relationship with a nurturing campaign. That site I was just talking about, they had a bi-weekly $150 gift card that they would give to somebody who signed up. So you're entered to win a $150 gift card every other week, which is great because of $128 pair of jeans, I might get those for free. So if I'm seriously interested and I want to continue to stay in touch with this brand, I might've given them my email address there, right? And then another way really here is cart abandonment because a lot of lookers will add stuff to cart as a way of holding it to compare and look at when they're done browsing your store. It's kind of like if you go shopping and you might pick up a couple of different pairs of clothing or something off the rack when you're walking around the store because, "Oh, I like this. I might like it. Let me see what else they have too." And then you end up with three or four things, right? It's the same thing browsers are doing on your website. They're throwing it in their cart and then they want to just take a look at that and evaluate after. So having some type of cart abandonment there can be a great way to captivate their interest. Ryan: Awesome. Jon: So next would be bargain hunters. With bargain hunters, it's really not about discounting, right? That's not conversion optimization. I think you know my stance on discounting. People who listened to this show will know I'm fervent about not discounting, right? But instead, really look to offers like free shipping, or gift with purchase, BOGO. We did a whole episode on this. People really want to know the alternatives, they exist. And really here, you just want to be thinking about things like current offers on your website. Don't make your customer's desert at the checkout and then go elsewhere to find that bargain or that special code. If they have to go to any of those sites, they're not coming back. And so we really don't want to drive them there. And you might also highlight, last chance or clearance items instead of making shoppers really go find those on your site. It could be really good on every category to have a little tout or badge or flag on each product that says something about how it's last chance, or low inventory, or something that's on clearance. Ryan: Now, do you advocate for having a clearance or an outlet navigation button on brand sites for this type of thing? Jon: Generally not. Where I want to see that as within the category because, yes, having a clearance item ... A lot of brands will put that in the main navigation. The problem is you're wasting a really critical main navigation slot. You only want five to six navigation items to begin with. And if you're taking clearance as one of those or something of that sort, a sale, I see a lot of people have sale in main navigation, what's going to happen is people are going to go there first and they're not going to get a total view of your products. Usually, the products that are in that clearance are in clearance for a reason. They weren't really popular. So why do you want the first impression of what your product should be, for a person coming into your site to see, is only the products that other people normally wouldn't buy and they're on clearance, right? So instead, mix clearance in with your other products. That way you're not promoting only your worst sellers if you will. Ryan: A couple interesting points that deviate a little bit from what we're talking about, but it's applicable in that I can afford most things on the sites I go to, but I am cheap by default so I always go to the clearance button first. Because I'm like if I can find what I'm looking for on clearance first, I'm going to get it. Even though if I didn't see clearance, I would have gone to the product and probably bought a higher price one by default because that's just how I operate on a site. But also, when you are throwing discounted products on your site, and there's a clearance section that they are in, if your Google shopping is not set up properly, all of those products would have been going into the clearance section and you can be stuck in the clearance section of the site and you're going to be staying in there most of the time. And because products are discounted price, generally get to show more often in Google shopping because they're lower price point or there's a discounted price, you will, unfortunately, be sending a lot of discounted traffic to your site when that maybe is not the focus of your brand. So some brands I advocate for having an outlet site that's completely separate. Jon: That's a great point. Ryan: Kind of like Gap Outlet, their stores, they sell all their old stuff and they'll have a separate site, and then having the people going to gap.com on that. Jon: That's a great point. And that probably makes Kanye very happy as well. Next up is buyers. Buyers should be buying from you in a way that's hassle-free, right? These people want to buy. They're there to buy. They have a job. That's one job that they're there to do and that's to buy, so let them buy. Clear these obstacles, make it easy and simple to buy, really be thinking here about the bottlenecks in the path to purchase that people must take, right? What are the hurdles you're asking them to jump over? Let's get rid of those. A really great way to look at this is to do user testing, get people who fit your ideal customer profiles, and have them run through your site while you record it and talk about the challenges they're having. Again, the whole goal here is to get outside the jar, read the label from outside the jar. And it's really hard to do that when you're too close to it. So really be focusing on just eliminating every single possible barrier, too many fields on checkout, making people create an account before they buy, all of those things that would be extra steps or what we're looking to eliminate with these. Ryan: And be clear on your shipping rates. That's the one that makes me so mad lately, is people not telling me what I'm going to pay for shipping, so it'll increase your cart abandonment too. Jon: Yeah, Exactly. I mean, these people are ready to buy until they saw you were going to charge them 20 bucks to ship, right? And so, there you go. Perfect case study. Announcer: You're listening to Drive and Convert, a podcast focused on e-commerce growth. Your hosts are Jon MacDonald, founder of The Good, a conversion rate optimization agency that works with e-commerce brands to help convert more of their visitors into buyers, and Ryan Garrow of Logical Position, a digital marketing agency offering pay-per-click management, search engine optimization, and website design services to brands of all sizes. If you find this podcast helpful, please help us out by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts and sharing it with a friend or colleague. Thank you. Jon: All right. Should we move on to researchers? Ryan: Yes. Jon: Really, researchers, my point of view on these is these folks need to just make sure that they feel like they've considered their options and they're making the right decision. And your job, your only job is to help them do that. So what does this look like? Well, provide all the info you can think of, dimensions, instructions, details, data, data, data. That's what these people want, right? They're comparing. They came to your site because as I mentioned earlier, they were on Amazon, the Amazon didn't have the details, so they're relying on your site to have them. And you want to help them just make an informed decision. This could be everything from product reviews from other consumers to video. Researchers love video because they can see the products in motion and in use. Somebody even just holding the product and walking them through it. Specialized Bicycles does an amazing job of this. They actually have employees of Specialized, not models or anything else. It's employees hold the bike and then walk a consumer through it on video. And it's really, really well done. It does not have to be ... They shoot it in a studio, but it doesn't feel like it's a super well-polished and professional video on purpose, right? It's not some high production quality. You're aiming for your local news versus the national morning show, right, in level of quality here. Ryan: Got it. Jon: So the other thing is, really help these people understand things like sizing and photography. Video, I mentioned. So those are the things you just really want to help people dive into are all these different decision points. All right, new customers. These folks, they really want to feel like they've made a wise decision or that you want them to feel like they can make a wise decision, understand your warranties, helping people stand behind their products. You want to make sure that you're glad that they are your customer and make them know that. So this is where you think about retail source. Like your wife's retail store, right? She's there to answer questions. She can help out with returns. She'll generally just express gratitude when these people are shopping, right? It's hard to do that online, but this is where it becomes really, really important that you're doing things like building relationships with nurturing campaigns. And that can start with, as I mentioned earlier, a post-purchase campaign. What happens after this new customer becomes a new customer, right? They're no longer a visitor, they're now a customer. What do you need to do there? Loyalty campaigns, a huge way to engage these folks, right? You get them in and say, "Thank you so much for your first purchase. Here is points for your next purchase," or, "Two more purchases and your fourth one is free." Something of that sort, right? Where you're helping these loyal people become loyal customers. That's really what this is all about. Ryan: And these people just purchased, so maybe they haven't even gotten the product yet or maybe they just got it. Jon: Exactly. Ryan: Even just user videos on how to use the product you're getting can be valuable. I do that with Joyful Dirt. Jon: That's a great point, right? So what can you send as that follow-up email flow while the people are waiting for their package to make sure they know that you have their back, right? So if I bought Joyful Dirt, what do I need to prep for? Is there a season I should be doing this in? How much water do I need to apply? All these other types of things that I probably don't really think about, but are really key to somebody getting the most out of the product and buying again, right? If I follow your instructions for Joyful Dirt, I am more likely to have a good experience and then buy again, then if I just use the product without reading the instructions, which is more likely for me than not so. Ryan: What I appreciate on it too, on that first email after I purchase, usually the next day, it builds the anticipation because often I forget what I bought yesterday and I get surprised by Amazon in two days, who are the site I purchased it on. And so you're like, "Oh, yeah, I do have that coming in a day." I'm excited to get it now because I was excited yesterday when I bought it, and I forgot today, and then tomorrow when it arrives, I get excited. So it's a good way to continue that kind of that high from my purchase that I just paid. Jon: How is there not a phrase like the Amazon phenomenon or something, where everybody forgets what they ordered at Amazon at midnight the night before and then it shows up two days later and you're like, "Oh, yeah, I was looking for that. That was great. I'm a genius." Ryan: I know. I was like, well, I knew I wanted one of these and like, oh, I did want one and then I bought it. It was great. In college, it would have been, "Man, what did I do at 2:00 AM?" and talk about, "Oh, I had a bean burrito." Now, it's just transaction fatigue or something. And I'm just [crosstalk 00:25:48]. Jon: That was much lower key than I thought you were going there, Ryan. 2:00 AM in college. But this happened to me recently where I was working out with a trainer and we do an outdoor workout in my garage now. And it was really funny because he didn't bring his TRX bands. If you know about these TRX straps, they're a way to do workouts. And the reality is that I went on and I just ordered a pair from Amazon. I was like, "Well if you ever forget them again, I'll have some here." And totally forgot about it. And then the next workout came by and the Amazon guy literally showed up two days later while we were working out. So it had been like two days to the hour and the guy shows up and I'm like, "Oh, I wonder what that is." And you could read the outside of the box. It said TRX. And my trainer is like, "Did you get something from TRX?" I was like, "Oh, yeah. Last time you were here. Yeah, remember?" Yeah, so that's was pretty funny. I was like, Amazon wins again. Ryan: Yep. Jon: All right. Dissatisfied customers. We have two left. So let's talk about the dissatisfied customers. Everybody has them, right? And they exist. And that's okay. These folks often can just be made satisfied by helping them understand that you're trying to fix their challenge and improve the experience for everyone else. Often, it's like if I come across a problem on our website, okay, let's just say, I just bought a bed. I'm not going to name names, but I bought a bed online and it has a whole bunch of technology in it. Love it. But, I'm a tall gentleman, right? And I bought a king, and it comes, and I was like, "This is a lot smaller than a king." It turns out, I measured it, it's two inches less than a king. And I was like, that's really weird. It's not a queen. So what's going on here? And so I contacted the brand and said, "Hey, this bed is two inches smaller than a king." And they said, "Oh, yeah. Because of some of the technology, blah, blah, blah, we have to make it a little bit smaller." And I was like, "That would have been nice to have known up on your site. You need to tell people that it says king, but it's actually two inches smaller. Because you're advertising all these NBA players use this bed and things like that, and I'm thinking great, right? But then it's two inches smaller." And the founder actually emailed me and said, "Hey, I got this feedback. I heard this. Well, we're going to add this to the website and make sure people know." And I was like, okay, well, I still have the bed, now I'm satisfied. And I was like, at least other people won't have that problem, right>. So I felt vindicated in some way. And so I think I made this point to say that complaining customers are an excellent source of feedback. And that's how you need to look at these, right? It's not about just having dissatisfied customers, it's about understanding what their problems are and fixing them. They tell you what the problems with your website and your consumer experience are, and so you could fix those problems. So really just want to be quick to listen to things like bad reviews, understand the complaint before responding, and understand that you can turn dissatisfied customers into loyal ones. It is possible. Ryan: I think too often brands hear or get bad feedback or just dissatisfied customers, and it's just for them, it's almost scary confronting it, or they're really excited and passionate about their brand, and somebody doesn't like it, they're like, "They just don't know what they're doing." I've done this myself with brands, and I'm like, "They just don't know what they're doing." And then I'm like, okay, it happened again. I'm like, okay, fine, we need to adjust the product. And my baby may be ugly, so let's fix it and not make it so ugly to some of these people. You can't be scared of dissatisfied customers, or you're going to lose your brand. At the end of the day, it's going to be just terrible. Jon: That's a good point. Yeah. All right. Last one, loyal customers. So, look, the 80/20 rule says that 20% of your customers will be responsible for 80% of your business. So the way I like to look at this and it's hilarious, I was just saying this to somebody else, but loyal customers are your bread and the rest are your butter, right? So really want to be thinking about what are you doing for these loyal people? So look at loyalty programs. I like to use airlines as examples because they are so good at gamifying, right? I'm platinum on Delta. I mean, I haven't flown them in nine months and I just got another letter from them yesterday with baggage tags for platinum level. And they said, "Hey, we're going to keep you a platinum level for another year. Don't worry about it. All the miles you've accumulated will count towards next year. So you don't have to start over. We understand." And they're gamifying it and in a way that's, okay, now, next year, when I start flying again or whenever that is, I'm going to go right back to Delta because I'm still platinum there. If they had removed, I'd just figure out, I'd be like, hey, well maybe Alaska or whoever else flies more on the West Coast where I'm all the time going, I would probably switch. But now I'll stick with Delta, right? They've done a great job with that through what's no doubt a challenging time for them. So really want to be thinking about a way to keep customers coming back and how you can take care of your most loyal customers. As I say, gamifying works very, very well. Every customer is special, but you really want to treat these folks with even more kid gloves, if you will. And then find ways to reward and recognize these people, you can give them special amenities. Baggage tags aren't really going to be much for me. I don't really care about that, but I'll take the free upgrades and the free alcohol and everything else that comes with being platinum with Delta. And then really just treat them like a VIP and they'll continue to be loyal. That's really my key point here. Ryan: And this is really probably the one area that I advocate for companies looking at competitors and taking note because a lot of times when you look at competitors and they have this widget on their side, or they do this thing in their ads, they probably have no idea what they're doing. At the end of the day, they're testing something. But when it comes to loyalty and what they're doing with their customers to try to keep them loyal, often, this is where a lot of research goes and especially in the airlines. If I was running an airline, I would go to all of the other airlines' loyalty program, find a list somehow and say, "Look, if you are platinum with Delta, I will automatically make you platinum or whatever my highest thing is with Alaska, give me a shot." And just automatically, because you're losing nothing. I'm not getting Jon's business right now. Jon: Right. It's funny you say that because Alaska does just that. They'll do a status match, where if you're platinum on Delta, they will status match you and give you that for a year on Alaska. Sadly, you can only do it once in your lifetime. And I did it right before the pandemic, so that's not a good situation for me. But yeah, at any rate [crosstalk] travel. Ryan: Join your competitor's loyalty program. I highly recommend everybody do that because it's going to give you some ideas of what they're seeing in the data or how they're gamifying it. Just jog your brainstorming ideas. Jon: Yeah. Status matches is a great idea, right? That's wonderful. Yeah. Where do you think you want to go from here? Ryan: Well, we're about out of time. So, I guess, I've got a lot to chew on too because I'm sure we're going to come out with some other ideas on this after digesting most of your data. But there's a lot of things you can do on a site to target a lot of people. And so what would your suggestion be to somebody that's just taken this fire hose to the face for their site and they're like, oh, my gosh, seven different groups of people? Where do you start and how do you start taking some actions so you're not a paralysis-analysis scenario? Jon: Yeah, great point. I would say here, start by asking questions about each of these groups and taking a good look at your site from their perspectives, right? So do each of these customer types get their needs met or are you just leaving some out in the cold? And how do you identify and engage the most loyal customers, or how do you flag and recognize new customers? And are you providing enough information to researchers? So really there's a key question in each of these if you go down and just ask yourself, am I meeting the needs of these people? And you'll come up with tons and tons of optimizations that you can do to your site on your own pretty easily. Ryan: Got it. And I would probably just broad stroke saying if you move up through the list in reverse order, you're taking care of some of the easiest or most important things. Like keeping your loyal customers loyal to you, you can't lose lifetime value customers, otherwise, your top-funnel marketing is just wasted. So keep those and move up. If you have to make a choice on where you're taking actions, I'm guessing that's where I would start. Jon: There you go. Awesome. Well, thank you, Ryan. I really enjoyed the conversation today. Ryan: Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for bringing your brain and letting me pick it and add some value to our listeners. I appreciate that. Jon: All right. Well, have a great afternoon. Ryan: You too. Thanks, Jon. Announcer: Thanks for listening to Drive and Convert with Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow. To keep up to date with new episodes, you can subscribe at driveandconvert.com.

On this special early-release episode of Out of Office: A Travel Podcast, Kiernan learns about Día de Los Muertos, or Day of the Dead, by talking to Harvard Professor of the Study of Latin America Davíd Carrasco about the history and traditions of the holiday. Kiernan also talks to Texas Monthly writer José Ralat about pan de muerto, the festival’s signature bread of the dead. How about Ryan? You know Ryan. Things we talked about in today’s podcast: Professor Carrasco’s video series for the Harvard Peabody Museum https://www.peabody.harvard.edu/Muertos José Ralat’s “Pan de Muerto is a Cross-Cultural Taste of History” https://www.texasmonthly.com/food/tex-mexplainer-pan-de-muerto-is-a-cross-cultural-taste-of-history/  Peabody Museum’s Altar https://www.peabody.harvard.edu/node/287  Catrina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Calavera_Catrina  Museo Mural Diego Rivera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museo_Mural_Diego_Rivera  Papel Picado https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papel_picado  Santa Muerte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Muerte  Ay Mujer Shop https://www.etsy.com/shop/AyMujer?ref=yr_purchases  “Gustavo, The Shy Ghost” by Flavia Drago https://www.amazon.com/Gustavo-Shy-Ghost-Flavia-Drago/dp/1536211141  

How can you prepare your businesses for operating in a future that has yet to be determined? Today, Jon explores the future of CRO. With such a high volume of transactions happening on Amazon and Shopify are we nearing the end of incremental improvement from CRO? For help with your CRO visit: https://thegood.com/ TRANSCRIPT Ryan: All right, Jon, as a business owner and strategist, I'm constantly thinking about the future and how I can prepare my businesses, my teams, clients for operating in a future that has yet to be determined. For me, it's just kind of fun to think through. Recently, one of the things that's been on the top of my mind has been the future of CRO and how do we continue moving the needle to improve our sites, but doing that like five years in the future, what is that going to look like? With such a high volume of transactions happening on Amazon and Shopify, are we nearing the end of incremental improvements in CRO? That's kind of the thought that's going through, and I guarantee you have some serious opinions on this that I have no idea about. So I'm excited to learn from you what you're looking for in the future. But it also came top of mind because of a recent Google announcement that they're going to start including site experience into their organic algorithm. And so let's just start with that. Based on what you've heard and what you know about Google, what do you expect this to look like when it rolls out? Jon: Well, I think that the biggest concern for brands and the biggest concern they should have is that if you haven't been optimizing your site's consumer experience, it's going to severely impact your rankings, and thus your organic traffic is going to go way down. Google was kind enough to tell us now, even though it's not going to roll out until 2021. So we're recording in mid 2020. So they have given you a six months heads up, which is very nice of them. They also have provided all the tools you need to be able to improve your site experience, including one of my favorites, Google Optimize, which is their A/B and multivariate testing tool set that they've released that's great. So they're not only just giving you the tool sets, but they're also giving you the guidance on the fact that they want you to have a really great consumer experience. Say when they go to Google and search, and then they end up on your site, that they have a great experience and that they love the search results that Google is producing. So that's what Google cares about right now, is they're saying, yes, everybody knows if I need an answer, I can go to Google. But a lot of those sites that rank first have made the experience so poor in an effort to get listed higher that they don't have a good experience on those search result pages. Ryan: How much in your opinion, and maybe you can assign a percentage, is the actual act of converting on a site the experience? Can you break that out into its own piece, you think? Jon: Well, without question, I think Google has been very upfront about this. Normally they'd never release a specific percentage that anything weighs into that algorithm, but they are saying that it's going to be one of the top factors. Ryan: Is the rate of conversion on a site? Jon: They can track conversion to some degree, but I think what they're looking at is how long are people staying on your site? How many pages are they looking at? Are they converting is definitely a factor in there, but are they bouncing right back to Google? And I think they're looking at a lot of other metrics too. They're looking at page speed. They have a whole bunch of algorithms and artificial intelligence, AI, that has gotten really, really good at telling things like, do you have a popup on your site where it, as content loads on the screen, that popup kind of moves around a little bit, and just because the page loads slowly and you have this bad user experience, and now people are trying to click buttons and the button keeps moving as the page loads. Ryan: I hate that. Jon: Exactly. That's the thing that Google does not want, that experience, what you just had, that emotional reaction. If you had clicked on the first item in a search engine result page, and you went to a site, and you had that reaction on that site, Google now knows that that's what's happening, based on their AI, because they can test for those type of experiences. And so really what they're advocating for here is the consumer experience on your site, the user experience. And they're asking you to make sure that you have a consumer friendly experience. And I think that's really what's going to matter. Now, the outcome of that is naturally going to be higher conversion rates. So I've always been a proponent with CRO that says the goal of the brand is to convert higher, almost always, right? The goal of the consumer is to have a better experience. Those are actually very much aligned, because if you have a better experience, you're going to convert more. And I think Google is recognizing that now, too. Ryan: You could take the stance of maybe some of the conspiracy theorists out there, that a higher converting website in the eCommerce space could hurt Google's revenue, since people don't have to go back to Google to keep researching. They're just going to find it, buy it, kind of like how I usually convert, versus my wife, who's all over the place in her conversion path. What would you say to those conspiracy theorists? Jon: Well, I don't think it's a conspiracy. I think it's, you know, Google's pretty upfront how they make their money. It's what the ads on the search engine result pages for the vast majority of their revenue. So yeah, they want people to keep coming back to Google, but I can promise you that if I keep searching Google and I keep getting a search engine result as the first second, third, which are the only ones people are really clicking on for the vast majority of times, and the experience is crappy, I'm going to stop going to Google. So they must know, because they've factored this in as one of the top ranking items in their algorithm, they must know that this is causing a concern, and they're feeling a lot of pressure from tons of other search engines out there right now. I mean, you've probably heard of, what is it, DuckDuckGo. There's all of these other search engines that are way more privacy focused right now. Windows, any Windows laptop comes with Bing as the default search engine, Microsoft search or whatever they're calling it these days. So I think they're feeling that pressure of making sure that people have a great experience, so they continue to come back and search on Google. That's why they're making it such an important factor. Will it cost them some money? I don't know. I think they must've done that math, but I will tell you that I'm excited that this is new and that they're making a big stance for this, because it's needed. It's really needed. Ryan: Speaking of competitors to Google, Amazon controls over 50% of the online transactions in the world. And how much in the future do you think Amazon is going to impact the way we view a checkout or a conversion process? If we play it out, say, let's just say Amazon is going to continue increasing in dominance. You can't do much with their checkout. So are we going to be so conditioned as Amazon Prime members that anything that deviates from Amazon's checkout process is going to throw us for a loop, and we're not going to know what to do? Kind of like the idiocracy model, where we just get dumber, because it's so simple for us? Jon: Well, I think that's the internet. The evolution of the internet has been that way for years. And I think we did a prior episode where we talked all about how eventually what's going to happen, are we going to totally optimize ourselves out of optimization, right? You're going to have done so much optimization that every experience is going to be the same. And I don't think that's going to happen. But I do think, I mention this book all the time, it's called Don't Make Me Think. And the whole point of that is that as consumers get used to conventions, it makes it easier for them if you follow those conventions. It's so true today that people are used to Amazon checkout. They're used to the Shopify checkout. They're used to these platforms that have grown to be the monsters in this space. And if you really deviate from those best practices, then you are potentially creating a barrier. Now, that doesn't mean there aren't areas that can be optimized in those. There most certainly are. But at the same time, looking at Amazon as an example, in terms of how to convert better and not just on the checkout, I think Amazon does a lot of nice things. But you know what? It's akin to when a small footwear brand comes to work with The Good, and they say, "I really like what Nike is doing. I want to do what Nike does. Can you help me do that?" And I say, "Well, but you're not Nike. Think about this. Nike has hundreds of product lines across all these different sports. Their marketing is based on the celebrity of getting athletes to market for them. And you don't have the money to go out and get LeBron James to market your shoe. You are fighting a 10,000 pound gorilla here, trying to fight a gorilla fight when you're not a gorilla. So think about having the better consumer experience." Nike can get away with having a worse consumer experience because of how ubiquitous their brand is. It's the same thing with Amazon. I go to Amazon to buy something because I know they're going to probably have what I want. And it's a quick and easy way to just go there, type in what I'm looking for, get a handful of options, do some research, and buy something at a decent price point. And I know I can get it in a couple of days. But if I really want to find a particular item, I don't go to Amazon to buy that particular item. I'll go to the brand website to do that research, because I know in my research it's going to get way, way deeper, even though maybe the consumer experience isn't going to be as good. Maybe I won't get it in two days. However, I know that I'm going to have more content and I'm going to have a better research path on that brand site than I will on Amazon. Amazon is great for not going very deep, but going very wide. Looking at tons of different products, but not going very deep into the research on each of those individual products. And a brand site is different. It's going to help me go real deep on products, but not very wide on competitors. So I think they serve different purposes. And it depends on if I'm looking for a commodity, right? Like, I was looking at ethernet cables yesterday. I needed a 50 foot ethernet cable. I just ordered it off Amazon, because it doesn't matter. It's a commodity. I can get an ethernet cable anywhere. But I know I can get it in two days. I needed it quickly. In fact, they dropped it off the next day and it said, have it by next day. And I was like, perfect. That's what I need. So I didn't even look anywhere else at price. It was fine. It was like a $10, $15 cable. It's not going to break the bank to do that. If I saved two bucks going someplace else, it didn't matter to me. But I think that's where Amazon has its place. And I don't want people to get confused by thinking we have to meet Amazon's experience, because they're doing a lot of things that I would not recommend and do not test well. Their navigation is a mess, but it's like walking into one store, in a retail store, versus walking into your local mall that has hundreds of stores. And Amazon is trying to be that mall, when you're trying to just be the retailer. And you really need to take that approach a little differently. Ryan: Looking forward a couple of years, and maybe the physical checkout process on a site is pretty standard across a lot of things. I mean, there's Bolt right now. There's even Shopify checkout that's been very simplified. So CRO, I would assume over the last five to 10 years that you've been doing it, you've had to educate some people on just the basics of checkout. Like, why are you doing checkout this way? So if that goes away, it sounds like you're saying CRO becomes more of a brand experience on your side rather than, okay, you changed your checkout button from pink to purple, and then look at that [inaudible 00:12:29] type thing. Jon: Right. I mean, look, I think CRO has evolved over the past, we've been doing this 11 years now, but over the past five years, it's become something that most people know about. If you're on the eComm side of any reasonable size, you're looking at and doing some CRO. I think the biggest difference here is that you're right, that there are areas that are transactional that just need to be transactional. And then there's areas of a site that are going to have a better consumer experience, that are going to then reflect better on the brand. And I think that's what you mean by branded experience, where if I go to a site and I just have a poor experience, then I am at that point going to have a bad reflection of the brand. And I think that's exactly what Google is trying to prevent here, is saying that you need to have a good reflection of your brand so that people don't just equate that Google, where you started, gave you a bad experience, as well, by sending you someplace that has a bad experience. Ryan: Got it. Okay. So if you're looking five years into the future and making some crazy predictions or looking at, what are you preparing your agency, The Good, for in the CRO space? What are you maybe not doing now that you think you will be doing in CRO in five years? Jon: I think that what needs to be happening is a way to make this more accessible to brands of all sizes, first of all. I think CRO, just like most technologies and consulting and things of that sort, it's for the elite when it starts. You have to be able to afford it. It's a competitive advantage. And so you're looking at the top one percent is able to take advantage of it. Then it starts filtering down. And that's what we've seen over the past five, six years, has been really the first five years that we did CRO, it was only for massive brands. And then it started getting to the point where those mid market brands really knew it was something they needed to do, and it became more available, and the tool sets got more available. We went from having just Optimizely, which is a great platform, but it's $10,000 a month to use, just the platform, to having Visual Website Optimizer, which was a couple hundred dollars a month, to now we're at Google Optimize, which is just as good as VWO, and it's free from Google. We've kind of run that whole gamut, and each of those tools have their space, don't get me wrong, and they're good at individual items. But my point here is we've gone from $10,000 a month to free over a span of a few years, and I think we're going to see that democratization of CRO continue to happen. So what needs to happen is that it needs to have these methodologies, and the strategy behind them need to catch up with the tool sets and need to be accessible to brands of all sizes. And right now that's not the case. The only things that are out there are eLearning, where you as a small eComm owner, and you're wearing tons of hats, you don't have time to sit down and learn for 25 hours and watch videos and then figure out how the heck do I apply this to my site specifically, and pick and choose, and then still act on it, right? So you've invested all this time and you still haven't made any changes to your site. So there's some ways to fix that, and we're working on that at The Good, but really I think that democratization of CRO is where this needs to go. And I think in addition to that, I think we're really going to see tool sets continue to evolve, and I think AI is going to play an even bigger role. As you know, we've been proponents of that for years. We do AI eye tracking heat maps, which is our way of dipping our toe into that. And we've been tracking it for years, and looking and testing at those algorithms to the point where we wanted to make sure it was something that worked before we heavily invest in it. And we're ready to heavily invest in it and go all in. Being a data driven company, we're seeing a lot of artificial intelligence with big data sets really start to pay off and make this successful to brands of all sizes. Ryan: That's [inaudible 00:16:46]. I think that is going to be phenomenal, when these small companies that we know of that need the CRO services are able to get those at a point that makes sense for them financially and for the improvements that'll make. That'll be cool. Okay, here's a fun one. Besides the death of the email capture pop up that you're so advocating for and the death of Wheelio spin-to-win, do you see something that we all currently expect on an eCommerce site to not be a part of an eCommerce site in the next two or three years? Jon: Yeah. I think putting your credit card in is going to go away. I mean, I don't know about you, but I'm fully in on the Apple ecosystem. And if other ecosystems catch up with this, I know Google has done a lot with this, with Google Pay, but Apple Pay, I will now, if I'm searching online to buy something, I will use Safari just so that on my phone or even on my laptop, I can just do Apple Pay and not have to go get my wallet. I don't want to have to memorize my credit card. I don't want to have to deal with any of that. And in fact, it's just like retail. If I have the option to use Apple Pay and not touch anything and not give somebody my credit card to swipe or even have to touch the screen to do it myself, I will do that. And I use Apple Pay every single time. I was even in a drive thru getting food the other day and I used Apple Pay, and it's just like that's my first question anymore. It's like, do you take Apple Pay, because I don't want to touch anything. And it's so convenient. So same thing online. Everyone expects to have to put in their credit card. I think we're going to see that go away. Shopify has taken a big leap in that direction, by making it, you can put in your phone number and then it will auto fill out your information. It'll send you a text and confirm, and then you can auto fill all your information in. I think there's a lot of things like that that are going to start happening, just as a way to make this process way easier. Ryan: Yeah. I'm excited for that. It's during this pandemic, where we're not going into an office or commuting, I found that I don't have my wallet on me. And so when I'm off somewhere else on our property and I want to transact, I don't want to go get my wallet. So if it already has my information, I'm more than likely to go to that site, and I may pay an extra dollar. But for me, it's like, nah, it would have cost me 10 minutes of walking somewhere on my big property. So I'll pay the premium to use, so that it's already stored. Jon: That's exactly it. Ryan: I didn't even think about that, but that's very true. I may be lazy sometimes. Okay. Jon: Sometimes. We'll leave it at that. Ryan: Sometimes. Yes, sometimes. Is there something out there that you see that if just something on an eCommerce site that if a brand adopted it now, they would have a pretty significant advantage over competitors in the next couple of years, if they really took a leap of faith? Outside of using our services, because we're so amazing, what would that look like, do you think, if you had to pick one thing? It's like, yeah, most people aren't using this yet, but I think if they do, they're going to have a big advantage in a couple of years. Jon: I think that it's not just one tool, and I don't even want to go to a hundred percent to tools, because I think that's the first spot that every eComm owner looks to, is like what's the new greatest and hottest tool that I can deploy on my site and be ahead of everybody else on that? A tool is only going to do one of two things. It's either going to help you do something better, or it's going to expose a weakness. And what we see is a lot of brands jumping into tools. And what I would like to see these brands doing is using tools like Klaviyo, for instance, to do email followups post purchase. We have a whole episode, go back and look for post purchase emails and what people should do for post purchase optimization. I talk about all the different email flows that you should be thinking about post purchase, and there's so many things like that that brands right now just aren't doing. And I'm not a big proponent of just having a best practice checklist, but I will tell you, there are a bunch of items that when we jump into work with a brand, we just immediately look at and evaluate and figure out what are the top opportunity areas here. And I'm always surprised, no matter what the size of the brand is, that there's almost always things on that list. And one of them is, as I mentioned, post purchase followups. One is definitely the checkout. Are they optimized around that? You mentioned Bolt and Shopify and things like that. And I think there's a lot of great optimization happening in check out right now. I think there's also a lot of optimization that can be happening in just assets on the site. What do I mean by that? Well, like product photos. You and I have talked a lot about 360 photos, and the revolution that's coming with that, in the past. And I think that that's, you know, having better product photos as more people are going online to purchase, is really going to matter, because you can't touch a product right now. So making sure that you have a way to see every angle, to really understand what you're buying, is going to be really important. And I think reviews and social proof is a huge one that people miss out on. And I'd be shocked if more brands don't do that in the future, because there are right and wrong ways to do that. But it is something that if you don't have reviews on your site, people start getting suspect about trust. They don't trust your brand as much. They're wondering why you're not sharing reviews or collecting them. And we've seen time and again, consumers trust what other consumers have to say more than what a brand has to say. Ryan: That's awesome. So thank you for all of that information. That definitely got my mind going, and some of my brands and what I should be doing that I'm probably not, because I'm stuck in the minutiae of the business myself. So thank you for all those insights of what we're going to be looking for in the future of CRO. Any parting thoughts or words on the future of CRO? Jon: Well, I think the best way to stay ahead of the curve is to start tracking your data today. Understand how people are engaging with your site. Make sure you're tracking every click and movement. And if you do that now, no matter what tool you deploy, no matter what you start doing down the line, you will have more data to make informed decisions, because you're going to have a longer timeline to look at trends. You're going to have a longer timeline of data to look at what potential changes you made and when, and what the impact of those were, so that you can skip having to collect all that data and wait around before you can take action. Because the biggest issue I see with brands who aren't collecting data when we start working with them, is they start getting anxious, because they say, "Hey, we're just sitting and waiting right now." And I said, "Yeah, we need to get all this data that you weren't collecting forever, so we can make informed decisions. And then we can act." So it's this whole issue of eComm brands who come to the table ready to act, but then they don't have the information or data to do it, and then they get anxious because they were so ready to act. They made the decision to act, but then they can't do anything yet. And so they have to fill that gap somehow. And I think that's a big concern for eComm brands, and I think we're going to see more and more brands collecting data. And I think it's becoming a lot more popular and easy. The tool sets are so easy right now. But just get some data collecting every click and movement. Set up Hotjar and just let it run. Even if you can't do much else, just set up heat maps and let them run for a while. Do some session recordings and let them sit there. Google analytics, of course, but there's even tools like Glew, G-L-E-W, that is amazing for helping you understand your consumer audiences. All of that data is really going to be important. So that's what I would recommend. If you want to be able to take advantage of what's coming down the line in the future, start collecting data today. Ryan: You heard it here first. Jon Macdonald says collect data. Do it. Thanks, Jon. Appreciate your time. Jon: Thanks, Ryan.

Ryan Hendrickson is a service member in the Navy, Air Force, and Army, author of Tip of the Spear, and current Green Beret. Ryan was chatting with us while on his deployment in Afghanistan. His book details his life serving through three branches of the military and eventually becoming a Green Beret. One specific deployment in Afghanistan searching for improvised explosive devices (IED), Ryan tells us how he was injured stepping on one which ended up becoming life changing. Through multiple surgeries, skin grafts, and extensive physical therapy with his PT Johnny Owens, Ryan was able to walk and return to Afghanistan. Check out his book of his journey back to battle Tip of the Spear. QUOTES “You don’t control life and you don’t control death. Everything in between are blank pages.” – RYAN “You don’t really fail… unless you adopt a victimization mentality that you’re a failure.” – RYAN “As people would quit, I would feed off that weakness because I’m still here.” – RYAN “You’re not just working on a patient or a client… you’re changing lives.” – RYAN “You’re getting guys and girls back into the fight regardless of what fight it is.” – RYAN PARTING SHOT “Refuse to become a victim of circumstance because life is full of them.” – RYAN

Ryan Hendrickson is a service member in the Navy, Air Force, and Army, author of Tip of the Spear, and current Green Beret. Ryan was chatting with us while on his deployment in Afghanistan. His book details his life serving through three branches of the military and eventually becoming a Green Beret. One specific deployment in Afghanistan searching for improvised explosive devices (IED), Ryan tells us how he was injured stepping on one which ended up becoming life changing. Through multiple surgeries, skin grafts, and extensive physical therapy with his PT Johnny Owens, Ryan was able to walk and return to Afghanistan. Check out his book of his journey back to battle Tip of the Spear. QUOTES “You don’t control life and you don’t control death. Everything in between are blank pages.” – RYAN “You don’t really fail… unless you adopt a victimization mentality that you’re a failure.” – RYAN “As people would quit, I would feed off that weakness because I’m still here.” – RYAN        “You’re not just working on a patient or a client… you’re changing lives.” – RYAN “You’re getting guys and girls back into the fight regardless of what fight it is.” – RYAN PARTING SHOT “Refuse to become a victim of circumstance because life is full of them.” – RYAN 

Recorded July 27, 2020 Time for the obligatory musical episode! Nate and Ryan start by talking about what has been happening in their lives— Nate’s vacation and Ryan’s attempt to find peace of mind. Then, Ryan introduces the change to the game corner and he discusses why he likes the Legend of Heroes games. Then, as an alteration on C.C. Lemon is drunk, they talk about some of their favorite musical numbers in movies, TV or broadway. For the main media of the day, they discuss what the doge did or didn’t do with the duchess and the tragedy of the chalice from the palace as they watched the Court Jester starring Danny Kaye. Game Corner The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel - Amazon.com, Amazon.co.jp Pick 2: Songs From Musicals Nate: The Other Side - The Greatest Showman, Amazon.com, Amazon.co.jp Ryan: You’ll Be Back - Hamilton, Amazon.com, Amazon.co.jp Nate: All I Ever Wanted - Two from Galilee, Amazon.com Ryan: A Man’s Gotta Do - Dr. Horrible’s Sing-along Blog, Amazon.com, Amazon.co.jp The Court Jester Amazon.com Amazon.co.jp IMDb Theme by Michael AD https://soundcloud.com/michael-ad/the-deep-end used with permission

Today, Jon asks how to determine what your SEM budget should be...and Ryan explains why the answer may actually be to have no budget at all For all your digital marketing needs: https://www.logicalposition.com/ TRANSCRIPT: Jon: It's a common question that I hear quite a bit. "How much should I be budgeting for search engine marketing and how do I even forecast what I should be spending?" Well, securing the SEM budgets is always a challenge, right? So when you do spend on search engine marketing, you want to ensure that you reach your performance goals, but there are countless traps and ways to actually overspend or even underspend on your search engine marketing budget. And even if you follow all the best practices, you could still end up with some inefficiencies, so correctly addressing the ways to misspend requires paid search experts to consistently monitor campaign performance and budget spend. And also they need to have a pulse on what the company is trying to accomplish. So luckily for us, we have access to Ryan and he has access to 6,500 search engine marketing budgets to learn from. So today we're going to talk about ad word budgets and how to forecast what your brand should be spending and how to ensure you don't overspend or underspend. So, Ryan welcome. Ryan: Thanks, Jon. It's a big one. This topic is constantly top of mind for CFOs and there's constant tension, I think, between marketing teams and finance teams over budgets. And for me personally, it's one of my favorite topics and also my least favorite topics, just because of all the tension around it. It's my favorite because almost every company needs to be educated in how to forecast and plan budgets. But it's also my least favorite because it's always an uphill battle with changing the opinions of business owners, executives, finance teams, even marketing teams that don't understand forecasting and budgeting. It's a difficult conversation to have, but I'm happy we're going to be diving into this and hopefully doing some education. Hopefully making people think about what they're doing and how they can be maybe looking at SEM forecasting a little bit differently. Jon: Awesome. Well, I'm looking forward to being educated on this. This is a topic that we were chatting before we started recording, and you have some unique perspectives on this that I've never even given thought to. So. Ryan: We both have [inaudible 00:02:32] all kinds of things, Jon. It's great to be able to do this with you, but when this topic came up in our sequence of things we're going to be talking about it. I get all hot and bothered and excited and adrenaline starts flowing and I talk fast. So bear with me, but very similar to how you get when somebody's got a discount email pop up on a site is how I get when somebody tells me what their budget is X number of dollars a month. And don't overspend. It's just, I'm on a personal mission to eliminate SCM budgeting for 99.9% of the population. It just doesn't make sense for most companies. Jon: So explain that to me, I'm interested to learn more. Why is that? Well, Ryan: we get into the conversation because finance people want to see what numbers are going to be and understanding what's going to be coming in and out of accounts. And so it's for the last a hundred years of CFO's doing work to prepare bank accounts. Marketing has been a line item on the P and L that they've paid attention to and set goals around on how much are we going to spend? What are we going to do? How much are we putting into magazines and newspapers and TV ads and billboards? So it's understandable, but SEM is in a very unique position that it's not a normal P and L line item. Let me just use an example because here's what normally happens. Finance meeting, all right, the owner is, "What the heck," gets all red in the face. "What the heck is this $350,000 charge for Google last month? You know, we need to cut that down because our retailers are selling less of our product. We need to save money. And you know, if we go into a COVID time, we've got to control all of our money and keep it from going out so we're not spending $350,000 on Google anymore. Every month, a marketing team, we need to cut a hundred thousand dollars of that." Marketing team reaches out to the logical position says, "Hey, yeah, our wholesale channel is down because nobody's shopping in stores. So we need to cut a hundred thousand dollars of our marketing budget on Google." And that I get it, logically it passes the make sense test that you're going to take that hundred thousand dollars from Google and move it to the bottom line of profit. So you can cover the missing profit from some retailers that aren't selling product. Jon: Right. They're looking at it purely as an expense line item. Ryan: Exactly. Which again, conceptually makes sense. What isn't considered in that is that $350,000 drove 1.3 million of top line revenue, 10,000 new to brand customers, and also had an impact on two million organic direct traffic revenue. And so cutting that hundred thousand dollars, most likely won't even save that company money. It'll probably cost them revenue and profit because it's not going to be driving as much top line revenue. And many times in the past, if you cut a hundred thousand dollars of billboards, you may not actually feel an impact in the business at all over the next month, depending on what you're selling, depending on what the billboard's mentioning, but it simply does move that hundred thousand dollars to the bottom line. And that again, logically makes sense. But with SEM, it doesn't operate like a historical marketing channel. It is driving so many other things that impact the business. And so because of that, it is somewhat complicated to explain that to a business owner over a phone call or, "Hey, we've got five minutes with the exec team. Let's tell them why we need to be spending on SEM." For most businesses, I'll add, will start with the crazy notion that you should not have a budget for paid search. It should be, "Nope. You are going to set your goals and going to spend. And if you can spend more, you are going to take it if you're hitting your goals." Jon: Okay. So it's not an expense line item. It's an investment. Ryan: Yeah. Jon: Okay. Ryan: If you're printing money with an investment, is there any reason you wouldn't continue printing money? And the general answer is, "Well, no, if I put a dollar in and I get $10 back, I'm going to go find a bunch more dollars. There's no limit to the number of dollars I can be spending. Because I could take that $10 that I just printed and put it back in and it prints a hundred and I take it out and it prints a thousand." The asterisk to this, which we will touch on probably a little later is it does make sense to forecast sales from SEM, potentially based on historical data for inventory or production. And that's where it does get kind of like a sliding scale on what we can spend based on the inventory we have. And I've got a couple of examples on that. Jon: So if you're not budgeting the spend, should you be looking at the back end is what you're saying. You should be budgeting the return on that adspend and what that's going to be in revenue. So you're saying, "I want to make a million dollars. What does the adspend take to hit a million dollars?" Ryan: Maybe? But the reality is, is I challenge companies to, yes, you're going to look at this, after the fact on a PNL, as a line item, but in the month itself, the spend on SEM actually doesn't have an impact on cash. Therefore it's not necessarily a normal P and L line item. So easy math example, you're going to spend a hundred dollars on paid search on Monday. Great. You set up your Google Ads account. You've got your credit card on there. You spend a hundred dollars on your credit card on Google. It drives $500 of revenue. Okay? That hundred dollars that you spent on Google Ads doesn't even hit your card until you spend 500. So it's still just in Google system. You spent in essence, at that point, fake money, it didn't hit anything. It's just a Google system, but that $500 that you processed on your website is real money. And that's going to hit your account as soon as your merchant processor will send it to you. So let's just say easy math. It's going to hit you on Wednesday 48 hours later. So every day you're going to spend a hundred dollars to get 500, your credit card's not going to get built from Google until end of day Friday, when you hit the $500 billing threshold from Google. And by that time you've already collected $500 on Wednesday, $500 on Thursday, $500 on Friday, that's hit your bank account minus the processing fee. But we will ignore that for this example, you've got $1,500 in your bank account. Your credit card has only been hit for $500. If you are like me and you're [inaudible 00:08:29] this, I pay my credit card once a month. And I pay off the entire balance on ever pay interest. And that credit card bill is probably not due until the 14th of the next month. Let's say this was the first of the month. So you've got 45 day float on that hundred dollars you spent on Monday. And by that time you've already collected money. And if you're not losing money, which ideally you're not, but you're actually making money, then it's a money printing machine that actually doesn't cost you any money. You have, in theory, an unlimited amount of money, as long as you're at least breaking even just from a cash perspective, right? And your credit card limit, obviously. Jon: So it's no longer about SEM budget forecasting. It's around the laws of SEM cash flow. Ryan: Not every business has unlimited inventory. So you might be able to spend a hundred thousand dollars tomorrow to generate a hundred thousand and $1 of profit in your business. But if you don't have the inventory to back that up, then you do have problems. And we have some clients right now that are struggling to get inventory from China for their production. I think one company has a hundred containers en route from China they're just waiting on to be able to sell and they can flip a switch, and that inventory is almost going to be gone immediately. It's crazy, the demand for their products. So from that perspective saying, "All right, we have this much inventory coming. We want to sell it." And maybe that becomes the conversation around, okay. Based on the historical data of what we've been able to sell, what we've been able to spend, what's the return on adspend goal that we need to be at to sell that much inventory? So again, this is getting somewhat complicated math, but I'll try to boil it down simple. Let's say in my brands, for example, I will spend down to break even to acquire a new customer at any point in time, because I'm competitive. I would love to put my competitors out of business because I think my product is better. My service is better, but break even is fine for me because it doesn't hit the cash. I'm getting new customers. And I have a lifetime value. If, for example, I all of a sudden had a... And this happened, I think in April we had a production hiccup. And so I knew that I was going to run out of inventory if I kept spending down to break even on like, let's make it up the 20th of April. So I said, "Okay, all right, marketing, we're actually going to raise our return on adspend goal because I need to throttle down sales because I can't run out of inventory on the 20th. I have to be able to get to the 30th before I can get my inventory back in." And so that's the strategy I use. I didn't care what we spent, as long as it wasn't losing money. I still, I said, "All right, instead of breaking even, and we're going to get a 2.5 X because based on the historical data, we think that's where my sales special is going to be." So that took some guessing and manipulation on daily sales totals. And we had to watch it pretty carefully. But once we hit inventory levels again, I was right back to pushing aggressively to sell an inventory. Jon: Yeah, that definitely makes sense. So there's other factors you need to be thinking about here and inventory sounds like is a big one for sure. Then that could be the more delimiter than what you should be spending or what the budget would be for SEM. Jon: Let me ask you this as a little divergence, but how do you get leadership on board with this type of mindset? Right? Because if you go in most financial folks would probably understand that return on investment spend, but maybe if leadership and finance is still looking at all of this as a budget line item, that's only on the expense column. How do you recommend people approach this conversation? Obviously there's simple math, just like writing it out, might help, but have you have found any tips and tricks for how to approach leadership about something like this? Ryan: It's difficult again, going into this conversation about money is always... I don't think there's any conversation around money that becomes easy, except, "Hey, I want to give you a million dollars." That's pretty easy. I'd be like, "Yeah. Okay, great. I'm in." The longer an organization has been looking at marketing on Google or Microsoft Ads as a line item that they forecast and budget annually, the more difficult it's going to be to change the minds of the team that's been doing that. We've worked in some billion dollar organizations that said, "All right, last year we did X number of dollars on our website and we expect a 10% growth. Therefore we're going to take our marketing budget for paid search, which was 10% of that total. And then we're going to add 10% to it again. So there's your budget. Go do it. Divide it up by the quarter that you think the revenue is going to come in and four quarters higher, therefore it gets 42% of the budget." And then they work down into the week and have even daily budgets. Those organizations are going to be much more difficult because they're bigger, their CFO, they were publicly traded. So they had to report numbers to shareholders and forecast what their expenses were going to be. And because SEM is an expense you report to shareholders, if that expense was a hundred percent higher than you told them it was going to be last month, they may not be happy because they're not understanding what's that top line number that it was driving. So you have to have it correlate really, really well saying, "Hey, we spent a hundred percent more, but we actually drove over a hundred [inaudible 00:13:53] more revenue." It's going to make them excited. But the group that's doing the conference call with the shareholders may not understand that and be able to break it out in that much detail, especially if it's a multibillion dollar organization and the website is a small piece of that overall business, which it was at the point we were working with them. It's challenging. So my advice is to try to chip away at certain aspects of it over time, being able to show, "Hey, when we spent more at this level, we got more, it was a direct correlation." And I like to use impression share showing potential like, "Hey, there's a potential there in impression share. We used absolute impression share at the top, which means you're in position one on Google and top impression show, which means you're just above the search results," to kind of give an indicator if there's a room to push. And then I also like to talk about what we refer to an internally as the Halo Effect. I don't think that's an official term, but if it does become an official term, you heard it here first. Paid search, specifically shopping in eCommerce has a large impact on organic traffic and direct traffic. And in fact, if you look in Analytics and you get lost in Attribution, sometimes it's hell, sometimes it's heaven, but you can get lost all over an Attribution. You will find out that the more you spend on Google Shopping, the more your organic traffic increases, the more organic sales you get. And you can look at assisted conversions to see that if you label your campaigns appropriately, you can see generally on non TM shopping campaigns, which is non trademark people, just looking for your product and service, and don't know you as a brand yet for that product or service, you will see assisted conversions generally higher than attributed last click conversions in Google Analytics. And so it's having a disproportionate influence on driving sales through other channels, and it is driving sales to its accredited channel. And so showing them that, showing them, "Hey, this says have a large impact. If you just cut it, you're not just cutting the results that you're seeing from the SEM budget. You're cutting results you're seeing in other channels as well." And so in some companies, this is unfortunate, but if you cut Google Shopping, your SEO team, all of a sudden is going to look worse without them doing anything wrong. They just happen to have the organic traffic drop because of Google Shopping not spending as much money. So it's a very complicated web picture as we continue to shop more and more online, it's only going to get more complicated and intertwined, but at least helping them understand some of that first, even before you get to the, "What are we going to spend," budget. Jon: Yeah. It's almost like we, as an industry, need a one sheet for executives on how to explain this simply for them, because I think there's a so much education that goes into this. And I think half the job of marketing ends up being internal education, which is really just reduces effectiveness. I mean, we fight that all the time with conversion optimization ecomm and marketing teams, they're all a hundred percent on board and understand the return on the spend on optimization. But then you look at a high level executive and they say something like, "Well, but you know, we just had our best month ever. Why would we need to optimize?" Ryan: No, exactly. We're constantly in education mode in what we do. And I actually had this conversation with Google last week because they're really internally pushing for more automation within Google to control a lot of the inner workings of Google, which is not bad for many companies, but they want to move agencies into more of an advisor role and helping companies grow by educating them on digital marketing, which I think is a great goal. I said that, "Well, the problem you're going to experience with that though, is you've got a bunch of, let's just say 24 to 30 year olds in digital marketing that have never owned a business that are trying to educate business owners on growth strategies for their brand. And they probably just don't have the experience to be educating at a high level why these companies should be investing in marketing." And it's scale yet, I just don't think we have the expertise as an industry to be advising people that have grown hundred million dollar brands on how they should continue growing. Jon: And the barrier to entry with marketing roles is typically pretty low, right? Ryan: Yup. Jon: It's something where there is a lot of people in the industry, but there's few experts. And you start doing something like that with all of the junior folks who are just getting into it, and you're going to end up with some big problems. So let me ask you this, Ryan. What are some ad word budget management solutions that kind of help you maybe just prevent yourself from even under spending? Because I think we've determined today, most companies under spend, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: Because they're not focusing on the right metrics around this, but I know you're talking about a lot of these tool sets that Google's coming out with. I know we've talked about them on this podcast before how I've even been personally kind of put through the ringer by using automation tools through Google. So what are your thoughts just on the AdWords budget management solutions that are out there? Ryan: Generally, I don't like them, but when I'm talking to business owners about controlling budgets, the first thing I tell them is, "Look, you're going to have flexibility, regardless." If you're rigid on your goals, you're either leaving money on the table or you're wasting money. You can't dictate search volume across the entire United States, for example, for your product or service, but what you can do is decide, "Okay, here's what my goals are. Let's make sure that we're at least meeting those. And if we have a little bit more we spent, that's probably okay, as long as we get the goals, if we under spend it's okay, because the search demand wasn't there." Google at its core is a demand capture. People are searching for a product. You put it in front of them because you have that product. There are pieces of Google that can be demand creation, but by and large, it is demand capture. And so build flexibility into your model. But then this is another thing I have to educate a lot of businesses on as well. A big education piece is aligning your marketing goals with your business goals. So often those are not going in the same direction. So you have a marketing team. That's been given a goal and they're rowing in direction to achieve that goal because they have incentives and bonuses in place to hit those goals. And then you have an executive or a business owner that's driving or paddling the boat in a different direction because of their goals. And if they're not aligned, you have a lot of tension and issues because there's going to be frustration from the executive team. "Why isn't marketing giving me the results I want? We set this wonderful goal and they achieved it, but it didn't have the impact I wanted it to." So you start with, what's your business goal? Do you want to grow? Even beyond that, do you have an exit strategy as an owner? Do you have shareholders? You have to hit certain metrics as a business to be successful and make them happy? And then after you've set that you say, "Okay, how can my marketing team utilize the SEM channel to help hit that goal?" And let's set incentives around that rather than what a lot of companies do is well, "We had an agency five years ago tell us that we should be getting it for X or you know, 10 years ago, we were highly profitable on Google Ads. I want to be highly profitable still." And don't pay attention to the changes or evolution of digital marketing over the last decade that has made your 10 X profit goal spending 50 grand a month, not possible at this point, based on what your site's converting at or all these other things you could be doing or should be doing. So it's goal alignment build in flexibility and then monitor it. It's not something you just set it, forget it, let the marketing team just do it. Like I'm in marketing, I have brands, I still daily track everything. It's all about the data. Like I want to know what's happening in my business regularly. I don't let it go on autopilot. Sometimes I want to, but I don't. And just in be involved as a business owner, you have to have an understanding of what it's trying to do. Jon: This is great because I think if I could summarize a little bit of my learnings from the conversation today, it's you shouldn't have a budget, you should have a goal, right? So look at the other end of the spend, not the front end, but the back end. Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: And then you really need to work on educating your team internally and the executives, if it's not your money that you're spending, because that way, you're making sure that they understand the return on the investment there. And then from there it's really an inventory challenge perhaps on how much you could spend. And you could really look at this as a cashflow machine. And that's how this should be looked at, perhaps is what's that cashflow equation? How are you getting that money before it's even truly spent? And how can you reinvest that up until you have no inventory left or you have an inventory problem. And then from there, there's no real way to kind of put something on autopilot here. They just don't work that well. You don't want to look at your marketing channels as equal. You really want to play at these different points of the acquisition funnel as you've mentioned. Did I miss anything on that? Ryan: Well, there's a couple of points. I think people should just pay attention to as well. There are circumstances where some companies intentionally lose money on the initial order from a customer. They have high lifetime value, they have a competitive space where it's necessary to even compete. They're going to lose money on the first order, beauty, skincare, that is often the case. Jon: That's still the cashflow formula. You're just stretching it out, right? Ryan: You can't spend unlimited money because it does actually cost you money to get that customer. And so you have to look at, from a finance perspective, how much money do I have in the bank? I can't spend endlessly if I'm losing money on the first order, if I'm breaking even or profitability, you can usually spend endlessly, but then it's also saying, "Okay, what's my diminishing return, and is there a better place for that investment?" Yeah. Diminishing returns is I'm losing money to spend. So maybe I stopped spending here on Google because I know that I can get this money losing return on Facebook or Instagram which is actually better. And so that's where forecasting probably has a bigger impact. And we've had those conversations with businesses about lifetime value. And there's some complex math formulas around it, but it can be done. But then when you're looking at moving budgets, there are some automated tools that brands love looking at. I mean, brands really do love tools that have great graphics and sliding things you can move around and makes it look like you're just doing amazing. And there's one that I really don't like. And it says, "We're looking at your Facebook spend and your Google and Microsoft spend. And if Facebook is at a five X and Google is at a three X, Oh, we're just going to move money from Google over to Facebook and keep spending until they're kind of at equilibrium," because that totally makes sense if you're just looking at math and numbers, but what most brands miss is that those budgets are accomplishing very different things. And so you have to look at them differently and not necessarily move budget from one to the other, just because a return on adspend goal makes sense like, "Oh, I'm printing all this money on Facebook and I may be breaking even on Google." It should be looked at differently. So generally avoid tools that just automatically move budget to the best performing things. Because for most businesses that doesn't make sense. Jon: I think that's a great point to end on today. And I think we've packed so much into 30 minutes here. I really appreciate you as always Ryan educating me on and helping me change my point of view on this, as I definitely came in thinking of SEM as an expense line item and you need to budget and have a forecast around that. And you've definitely shifted my thinking completely around, which is awesome. Ryan: One less business owner to educate. I love it. Jon: Boom. All right. Well hopefully a few other got educated today by listening to this and we'll continue to spread the word. So thank you Ryan. Ryan: Thanks Jon.

Today Jon takes a look at how to improve your category pages on your website. He'll explore what you should know about headers, footers, navigation, bread crumbs, and more! For help optimizing your category pages: https://thegood.com/ TRANSCRIPT: Ryan: Hello Jon, and welcome to the podcast. Ryan: I was digging through one of our shared clients analytics, and this is a rather large international brand that most of our listeners would probably recognize if we mentioned their name. And outside the home page, the largest volume of traffic to their site is condensed into just a couple category pages. Now that's not unusual for a lot of major brands because of Google's algorithm, on the organic side, favoring category pages over product pages. But it also means that there's a huge opportunity for a brand capturing a lot of this traffic to really make that traffic work better on category pages specifically. Ryan: So through this, I'd really love to hear some of your suggestions and best practices on improving those category pages. And maybe even at least some tests people can be testing as they're looking at their category pages to make some improvements. Kind of like our CRI name we coined. What do you think of that category pages and the importance of them? And should we continue down this path? Jon: I love it. Let's gain some knowledge on this. Ryan: Fantastic. So most of the listeners probably haven't had the amazing opportunity I have of hearing you talk about landing pages as much, and just seeing some of your tear downs. And so as with most of these, let's start at the top and kind of work our way down, and even some of your general best practices, probably, in header navigation can be applied to other places of the site. Especially if you keep it consistent. But do we need to think about mobile and desktop separately in this scenario? Or just pick one and go with it? What's your usual recommendation? Jon: I would recommend that we start with desktop and keep it to that for today. The reason being is that even with e-com, I think we're seeing the vast majority of traffic is now on mobile, but still a very, very large majority of conversions are happening on desktop. Now that varies from site to site, of course, but I do believe in what we see here at the good on a daily basis is conversion kings is still on desktop. And so it always makes sense to start there. The other reason is that if you fix your desktop experience and you have a responsive site, that should, for the most part, filter down to your mobile website. And so there's no longer just a desktop and a mobile version of a site. It should be responsive or adaptive for the most part. And so with that in mind, I would highly recommend starting with desktop. And then of course you could look at mobile later, but I think for the point of today's show, we could just stick with desktop. Ryan: Yeah. And if you do maybe have a mobile site and a desktop site, you may need to contact us because we may have some abilities to fix that [inaudible 00:03:12], because that's probably a struggle for your business. There's maybe some lower hanging fruit for you, before you get into Jon's conversation about it. Jon: The number of sites I still see, it's dwindling. But there is still a number of sites out there that they have mobile on a separate domain. And that's always... It's like M dot, the domain dot com. That's when I know there's a bunch of opportunity there to increase sales and conversions. Ryan: God, John knows he's going to make that company a lot of money when they listen to them. Ryan: Okay. So let's start right at the header, very top as you're scrolling down this page as soon as you come onto it, a lot of companies do things that are not great in the header. What are some of the things that they're putting in there maybe that aren't needed or that distract from the actual conversion that they're attempting to get these people to take on the site? Jon: Well, I think the first thing is that it always blows my mind when I see a header, and these brands invested so much to get people to their site, right? Whether it be content marketing or paid ads or SEO, whatever it is. And then they immediately show them social icons, and show them ways to bounce off the site. Right? Social is great for getting people to your site, but once they're there, keep them on your site. Don't send them back out to those channels. And so really be looking in the header to keep people on a site, as opposed to sending them back off through something like social links or icons, things of that sort. That's the biggest one I see. Ryan: Okay. So as far as distractions, social is the biggest issue there. What are the things that maybe companies are missing out on in that header that they should be thinking about putting into them? Jon: Well, I think that the biggest thing people miss out on is just communicating very simply what the brand is, what the value proposition is. Jon: Now, most people don't think about including that in the header. And I'm not suggesting putting your entire company story there, your entire value prop. But what I am saying is you can communicate these things through perhaps your navigation and the language that's being used there through the utility navigation, through what's the lines of texts that goes right next to your logo, right? Jon: So a lot of people will just put a logo up and expect that because they're on your website, they know exactly what you do. Well, think about it through the eyes of a new to file customer. That customer just got to your site by clicking on a link that a friend posted on social. They have a little bit of context, but it would be great to get that reinforced and the first place, especially in Western cultures, folks are going to look is the top left corner of your site. That's generally where people put their logo, but then they miss the opportunity there of including additional context. Could be just one sentence or one line, does not have to be very huge and it can be blended in with the logo, even. Ryan: Dang it. I am taking notes. I think I need to go to some of my brands and add some, maybe, lines of contexts. Jon: Well, if you want a good example just go to thegood.com and look what we do in the top left hand corner right next to our logo. Ryan: No, that's brilliant. And I think as a business owner myself, and working with brands constantly, I'm in the business too often that I don't step out of it often enough and think about the perspective of a brand new user. I clicked on a link, maybe not even necessarily thinking before I clicked, and boom. Logo. I'm supposed to know what you do right before that, but probably I don't. Jon: Well Ryan, this applies to you based on what I'm hearing right now, but it also applies to almost every e-com brand and e-com manager. Is that it's, and I've probably said this a hundred times on this show already, but it's very difficult to read the label from inside the jar. Right? You are so close to this, you probably helped to wire frame out the site, design it, define the navigation, lay out all the content. And so you're so close to that, that you know what each link does, you know what the site is, you know your value prop. So it doesn't occur to you that other people might not get that, might not understand it. And it could use a little assistance there. Ryan: Yeah. And you've helped me a lot on navigation so I'm going to jump into that in a second. But before that, site search is a often misguided location on the site. Do you recommend that as high up as you can, as obviously as you can in the header? Or do you recommend other places on the page for that? Jon: I am not opposed to having search be front and center. Having search front and center is great for people who are second time visitors or repeat visitors to your site. They know exactly what they're looking for. Think about things like a car parts dealership, right? Or car parts retailer. People may come and know exactly what model number for that very specific part that they need. They're definitely going to know what car model that they want to put that on, so they might just search by that car model. So anyway you can give people a shortcut down the funnel, and skip steps of the funnel so that they can just get to exactly what they need as quickly as possible, is better. And I can tell you that search is going to convert twice as much, if not more, than just a regular visitor. So encouraging people to use search can really help boost conversions and sales. Ryan: Wow. That is an impressive stat. So just on average from what you see when somebody uses at least a decent search, because there's different levels of search quality- Jon: Of course. Ryan: ... On a site, but an average search you see approximately 50% increased conversion rate on the traffic that uses search versus doesn't? Jon: Right. And an easy win for listening to this is just look at your top five, maybe 10, search terms that people are using and search those yourself and see what the results are. They're likely lackluster. You can easily fix that, just go through your product detail pages that are relevant and add some additional meta information to those pages to have them pop up in search results. Things like common misspellings or the plural of an item. I can't believe how many times people don't think to add an asset at the end of an item because people may search for it that way. And also just make sure that the search results page... The results themselves matter, but also that search results page that shows those results needs to be optimized as well. A lot of people just forget about it and just show no context at all. They just show the title of the page and link to it. Why not have the description there? You already should be, on your product detail pages, having some meta-description that Google can pick up, why not display that there if it's already part of the page? Ryan: No, that's great. And I think making sure that a search that happens on the site has a listing of products, generally, make sure that you can look at that in an incognito window when you scrape the URL and paste it. That way you can use it, from a traffic generation perspective, you can drive traffic from a paid search ad. But also, if you're having enough people search that on your site, you should probably make that a category page so that Google can start indexing that as well, because you're probably not alone on your site in people searching for that product. Or group of products. Jon: Exactly. Yeah. And an easy way to find out what people are searching for, just go into your Google analytics. Most platforms, I mean they all have a little bit different perhaps, but most eCommerce platforms, the search results page is just something that ends in a question mark S equals. So if you figure out what that URL pattern is, and then you can just run a filter for that question mark S equals or whatever, and then you can understand how many times people are hitting each of those search terms. Jon: So it's pretty simple to figure out with about five minutes of work and I can promise you it will increase your conversions immediately. Ryan: Awesome. Okay, one area you've helped me a lot in sites and understanding how to improve the experience for the users is navigation. And a lot of companies tend to do this wrong. They seem to think that more is better. What do you often suggest to companies when it comes to navigation? Jon: Keep it to five items or less, first of all. Anything over that and people just assume that it's going to be a lot of work and they're not at your website to do work, right? So they just like, "I don't want to weed through all these options," and it becomes more taxing than it needs to be. What I would recommend here is you keep it to five items, but also have the navigation copy, be in the context of your customer, not of yourself. What I mean by that is so many brands try to promote themselves in the navigation. They have things like about us. Nobody's coming to your website to learn about us. Now they may want to learn more about you, but not in the main navigation. They typically will scroll down to the footer and look for that, or that information that's on your about us page should be throughout your site in places that people are actually looking for it in context. Jon: So a lot of people will do things like put home as the first navigation item. Really, we all know, we've been trained over years, that if you clicked the logo in the top left hand corner, it's going to take you to the homepage. So you can eliminate home out of your navigation. That's a real easy one. Also, highly recommend if you're an e-com site and you have only a handful of categories, that you just list the high level categories in your navigation and leave it at that. That will do two things. It clearly tells people what you sell, how you can help them. And in addition to that, it gives them a quick and easy way to get to the place they want to go to. So that again, they're skipping steps that are in that funnel by having to kind of continue to drill down and find it. Jon: So there's a lot that can be done in navigation. It needs to be clear. It needs to be concise. You need to keep it to five items. And you need to try to keep yourself out of the navigation whenever possible. Ryan: Got it. Now on many category pages I will see, in addition to the top navigation, a left hand navigation or kind of a filtering system on the left hand side of the category page. Do you have an opinion on if that is good, bad, helpful, indifferent? Jon: I think it depends on the amount of product that you're trying to sell. So let's talk about that. We were actually, just before we got on the recording here, we were talking about a shoe manufacturing brand that had a left hand navigation that was filtering, that contain, I think, 40 to 50 different check boxes, right? That you could filter by. Right? And the problem with that, I mean, they had every single shoe size as a filtering option. It wasn't a dropdown, it was just a whole bunch of check boxes. So imagine being a consumer and trying to filter, but you have to look through all of these items just to find the ones that are relevant to you. It's really not that helpful. In the end it actually, I would argue, makes it more complicated. Jon: Filtering in that way can be helpful. I think it needs to be a high level filter. What are the main differentiating points? And then once they get down to the product level within that category, then you could start doing some other points, like size, availability, in stock, out of stock, et cetera. So helpful, but it depends. And the thing it depends on is how many products are you selling? If you have a handful of products, then you don't need it. People will scroll and look at your six or eight categories. If you have 50 categories, so many that you really just can't list them all on a page. Then of course you need some filtering for categories. Ryan: Got it. Okay. Makes sense. I've seen some that are great on that left hand side and the other ones that I get lost and I just leave. Ryan: So on each category page, generally speaking, best practices are to have a piece of content for the search engines, usually three or four sentences talking about that category. It's great for SEO. A lot of platforms default to having a place for that content at the very top. Have you seen that impact conversion rates being at the top, the bottom, the side, or is it kind of like it hasn't mattered too much to what you've seen? Jon: Well, I think that ideally I would put it below. If you need it for SEO purposes, that is. Right? Because most of the time that SEO type of content is not going to be helpful to the consumer. You're trying to write for Google, you're not writing for a consumer. So in that sense, I would get it out of the consumer's way. But I do think that some content above the products on a category page could be helpful in letting people know A, where they are. So any type of wayfinding you can do there, that type of stuff can be really helpful. I do think that if you're running a promotion on one category, that could be a great place to do it. If you have a little bit, or just maybe even some branding stuff where you have an image that relates to that category, showing it in use, something of that sort, can be really, really helpful. Jon: Say you sell tents and you are showing a family and you're on the category page for four people tents, right? And so you show a family camping and are sitting around a campfire with the big tent in the background. Right? Something like that can be helpful. You're setting the context and the tone. Ryan: Now also at the top, a lot of times you're going to see bread crumbs. And I've heard some good things from you about breadcrumbs and some bad things about breadcrumbs. So how do you decide whether or not breadcrumbs are helpful? Or are they always a terrible idea? Jon: I'm not really a fan of breadcrumbs. I think at this point that what has happened, it's a hold over from SEO practices of yesterday. It's not something that I see quite often anymore that is actually helpful for a consumer. And typically you're just giving them information either that they're already aware of, or that they don't really need. And if they want to go back up a level to the homepage, for instance, because you're only on a category so you're probably one level deep, maybe two. At that point they're probably just going to click the logo and go home or look at your main navigation. So overall, likely not that helpful. It's just another piece of content you're asking your visitor to wade through before they get to the content that they really are at your page for. Ryan: Okay, good. And so, just a general question going deeper, do you like them more on product pages that can get you back to a category page? Or is it just kind of across the board breadcrumbs are not a great idea? Jon: I think that it's helpful to have a navigational item that takes people up one level. Now, when you say breadcrumb I think that it starts out with homepage, next page down category page then, then your product detail page, right? So now you're four or five items long. Most people put the entire page title in those. It's not just so and so category. Look, the breadcrumb typically is dynamically built and the way that the platforms do it is that they will use the entire page title. And so they put that into the breadcrumb. Now your breadcrumb ends up being like 300, 400 characters long. It's massive. It's stretched across the entire page. It's distraction. It's not really helpful either at that point. And all of the eye tracking that we've done at the good over all these years, people never look at the breadcrumb. It becomes blindness because they see it and they stop, maybe for a split second, but they're definitely not reading the entire breadcrumb. And that's why I say it becomes a distraction and it gets in the way. Because you're making people stop and think before you're giving them the content you want. Ryan: Got it, okay. So sitting on a category page, you see a list of all the products. More and more often on a lot of these SAS platforms, I'm seeing the ability to add to cart from the category page or even just a kind of a quick view, popup JavaScript. Have you seen some direction on whether either one of those or both of those as good or bad? Jon: I personally am not a fan of those. Unless you have a product that's like a refill or something like that, where you have a limited number of products and you have a product that somebody is coming to the site and is quickly looking for that product and knows they're going to want to buy it without having to see any additional details. Jon: Here's the thing, on category pages people are still looking and browsing and trying to find the product or service that is going to solve their pain or their need. And the challenge here is that you're putting a really high intent to purchase call to action by saying add to cart, likely when they're not at the stage where they're ready add to cart. And if you just give them one image and a title, and maybe it shows the stars and the price, and then says add to cart, I would think most products, that's not enough to get somebody to purchase. So you're blowing an opportunity to send them to a page that you can convince them and show them all the wonderful benefits of your product and how great everyone else says it is in the reviews, and show it in use, and all these other things. So you're shortchanging yourself by just having the small little thing that comes up, gives minimal details and then asks people to add it to the cart. Likely not a good idea. Ryan: Probably [inaudible 00:21:29] in the quick view as well, just from, if nothing else, an analytics perspective. Where it's going to be much more complex to track that process or that funnel like category page, product page, purchase. Whereas if I go quick view, it's got to be an actions in Google analytics, if it's a JavaScript overlay, you don't get to do as much optimization on the JavaScript overlay popup necessarily. Jon: Yeah. Ryan: That's what I would say. Jon: You end up recreating that funnel in Google analytics and it's a lot of extra work. And I just think all of the negatives outweigh any of the positives. Then people say, "Well, I added this to make it easy for people to add to cart." Well, if they're not ready to add it to cart then it's not easier. Ryan: Moving down, anything else that I kind of skipped in that middle page where we jumped into the footer? You've seen products, is there a good way to put products? How many across? How many deep? How many products on a product page makes sense? What's your default response to that? Jon: I think on the category page, there's so many times where people will do a couple of things. They'll list hundreds and hundreds of products here. I think that's obviously the best use case for filtering, and I would do that filtering at the top of the page. Jon: Great example of this is we helped, a handful of years ago, to optimize Easton Baseball's website. Now, if you don't know what Easton Baseball is, they're the number one supplier of little league aluminum bats. In little league college, about 99% of swings are done with an Easton bat. They don't do anything in the major league baseball because they don't do anything with wood and aluminum's outlawed. So what does that mean? Well, the vast majority of people coming to the site are parents looking to buy their son or daughter a baseball bat. Or a softball bat. And if you went to their category page, all you saw was a wall of grid of bats. And if you can imagine what a little picture of a bat looks like online, they all look the same. Jon: They're all these sticks that are different colors, maybe. Right? But you can't communicate out of that picture. What the benefit is between the different bats, right? And they have wildly different prices. I mean, you can get a hundred dollar Easton bat and you could go all the way up to, I think, a five or $600 Easton bat. And so if you think about it, you're a parent, you get really confused. And right away, you're just upset, right? You're like, "Man, I don't know what bat to get. I'm going to be here all day clicking through all of these." And you just get frustrated really quickly. You probably just log off and go to your sports sporting goods store and just ask the guy which bat you should buy. Who's just working the counter. Not a great experience. Jon: And so once we dug in a little bit, what we found was that there are four or five different leagues, little league being one of them, that have certifications for different bats. And if your bat that you start swinging with does not have that logo of certification on it, then the umpire is supposed to not let you swing with that bat. And so the big problem is that all these parents were buying the bats based on price or the color they thought their kid would like best or whatever that is, and would end up getting to the game and the bat wouldn't be able to be used. And that's a huge let down, not only for the parent who just invested all this time trying to figure this out and got through that frustrating experience, but then the child who is up at the plate to swing, and they're being told that they have to use someone else's bat. Jon: It was creating a really poor brand experience. And what we found was that there were a couple of things parents knew about their children. What league they were playing in, and then they knew what style of hitter that the person was. So were they swinging for the fences or are they somebody who's just trying to get on base or something in between, perhaps. And then they generally knew what size of child they needed. So right? The bat is going to be different weights based on the size of the person swinging it. So they would say, "Okay, well I have a 12 year old. He can probably swing a heavier bat than my six year old," for instance. Right? So generally you have an idea of what weight you need based on the child who's swinging the bat. Jon: So what we did was we added some filtering and we made it three quick questions. With easy dropdowns. What league is your child playing? What type of hitter are they? And then do you know what weight bat you should be using? And usually what we found, we came to that third one because coaches would often tell the parent, "Buy this weight of bat for your son or daughter." So they already had that knowledge that they could bring. So what was really great there was we turned a wall of bats into something that now became three to four options. You answered those questions and it gives you a couple of options and a range of price points. And then you could decide, for your budget, what would work best and what was the bonus of stepping up a level? Jon: And it took all the frustration out of it. And their sales went up online 200, I think, 240 something percent Euro per year. Just by taking the pain point out of their category page. Ryan: So you're saying CRO has a return on an investment? Ryan: Little shameless plug for Jon's skill set there. Jon: We wouldn't have been doing it for 11 years if there's not a return here, I can tell you that. But at the same point, I think that it's all about just increasing that consumer ease of use. And if you just have a laundry list of products on a category page, that's not very useful. Especially if they all look the same or there's very minimal difference, or if they're all wildly different products. That also was a problem. And so it's like, "Where do you start as a consumer?" You think about walking into Walmart. If you didn't know what you wanted, when you walked into Walmart, you're going to be really overwhelmed because they sell everything. Jon: Yeah, it's a very similar type of experience to that feeling that somebody would have, and you want to make it as easy to use and help them to... Let them know they're in the right place, and help them make that decision as quick as you can. Ryan: Got it. And so I would advise people, a lot of times what I've heard you say, is take your category page to Starbucks. Buy somebody coffee and have them try to do something on it, to try to see some of that, because I'm guessing the Easton people didn't even conceptually think about that. Like, "No, we have all these bats. We know which one you want. Just get this one." Rather than, "Oh, you're not a parent trying to buy a bat." Jon: That's exactly it, is that they were too close to the product. They were inside the jar, and they didn't understand the pain points that the parents were having because the parents don't know as much about the product as the staff did at Easton. Ryan: Got it. Okay. So in conclusion, we've got all the way down to the bottom of the page. We've seen all the products. What are some of the things and quick best practices to be looking at in the footer of the category page? And what are some of the things you see that people do wrong down there? Jon: Well, the first thing in the footer that most people will do is they just dump all their links, extra links, down there. And it's just a grid of link after link, after link, no order to them. Maybe they put a header above them, but generally not that helpful. Jon: The first thing you should do in your footer is you should repeat your main navigation down there. And it should be the first thing on the left hand side of your footer. That way people don't have to scroll all the way back up to continue the shopping experience. If people scrolled all the way down to your footer, they are interested in your company and in your products and they want to continue shopping. So give them an easy way to do that. Ryan: And then do I add in all the navigation links you made me take out? At the top. Jon: I think there's a place here for a secondary navigation, and there's generally room for it. So that's a good thing you could add here. I think that another thing that you could add in here is your email sign up. That's always a great place. If people are still interested, but they're not ready to buy, they reached your footer, that's a good time to say, "Hey, you know what? Sign up for email and we can stay in touch." Ryan: You mean if they ignored my popup giving them 20% off their first order if they signed up with an email? Jon: Yeah. If you have those popups around by now, we're going to have some big issues because you obviously have not been listening to the questions you ask me. Yeah. Ryan: Yeah. Do not have popups. Everybody listening to this, do not have popups for email. Please put it in the footer. Jon: And maybe we'll do a whole episode on popups. And then I- Ryan: It'd be very short. Ryan: Simple answer, don't have it. Jon: Yeah. You can get me really riled up if you just keep asking me about them. Jon: Yeah. And I think the thing that should also be on the site in the footer there is your contact information. And that should be in the bottom right hand corner. And I'm always surprised by the number of sites that don't have contact information in their bottom right hand corner. But here's the thing, it increases trust if people see that you have a way to get ahold of you, but more importantly just put a physical address there. Let them know that you're not running the site out of your parents' basement. I mean, even if you are, just list your parents' address on there. It doesn't matter, right? Nobody's going to show up to this address. What they do want to know is that you're a viable business that's not just drop shipping and with no care. That you are actually reachable by either phone or support email. Ideally the physical address is really just a reassurance tool. We see that trust increases dramatically if you list one. So I would highly recommend that. Jon: So having your contact information in the bottom right hand corner is just standard practice. That's where people are going to go if they want to get ahold of you. Somebody comes to your site, they're immediately going to scroll to the bottom right hand corner if they want to reach out to you. Ryan: Yeah, I can actually vouch for this. Recently I actually didn't purchase from a site because they didn't have an address. That just, it made me concerned like, "Oh, you're just drop shipping, you're living on the internet, you're a fly by night organization." Just surprised me after I got done. I was like, "They just didn't have an address and that's all that caused me to not buy from them? That was weird." Jon: Yeah. It's surprising, right? I mean, the return on investment in this is pretty darn high because all you have to do is go to mailboxes et cetera, or a UPS store or any of those places, right? And just get a box from them for, what is it? Five bucks a month? And nobody knows that that's the address, right? People aren't Google Mapping this address. They're literally just saying, "Is it there? If it is, okay, I feel better." Ryan: Yeah. And I mean my wife and I, we have five businesses and live where we registered a lot of the businesses. And I have them on the internet, you can find my home address and nobody comes to us. Thankfully. Because I want to keep it that way, keep my privacy. Jon: Well now we're all going to show up. Ryan: Yeah. Ryan: But I think it does. I think it's a very simple thing that I've never really thought about, even until last week when I just didn't buy from a company. And I spent all day online looking at sites. And just the simple act of putting an address in a footer would have gotten that company a sale. Jon: Exactly. Ryan: Okay. Anything we've ignored or haven't touched on on a category page that you think we should be aware of? Jon: Yeah. Don't have popups. Ryan: Just email sign in at the bottom. They're not going to get a discount, it doesn't matter. Jon: Yeah, I think we've done a pretty good job of working our way through the entire page. So I feel pretty comfortable that we've answered the majority of concerns that I would have on a category pitch today. Ryan: And understand too, you'll never be done optimizing your site. You can't. Jon: There's always something. It's interesting you mentioned those tear downs that you see me do quite often at conferences and the like, and I'm never at a loss to find content for those tear downs. You can continually optimize the site and always be iterating on the site for a better experience. It's just a fact of life, but it's something that gives you a big return on that investment. It's well worth it. Ryan: Yeah, it's kind of like that Gordon Gekko thoughts. Like, "How much is enough?" More, well what's a good conversion rate? Better. There's no answer. Jon: One that is always improving. Ryan: Yes. That's your perfect conversion rate. Ryan: All right, Jon, thank you for the time and enlightening me as well as the people that are listening into us. Jon: Yeah. Thanks. It was a great conversation. Hopefully everybody's learned a lot today. Ryan: Thank you.

James:  Hi, audience and listeners. This is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Through Value-add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Today I have Ryan Gibson from Spartan Investment Group. It's an investment group that focuses a lot on Self-storage. They have almost 4,000 units. They have a lot of units in DFW area and a few other States. I think Ryan's going to talk about in a short while, and they recently started to [00:32unclear] in a mobile home parks, which we'll touch upon in a short while. Hey Ryan, welcome to the show. Ryan: Thanks, James, for having me. It's fun to get on your show. It's great. James: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So why not you tell about yourself and your company, things that I've missed out? Ryan: Yeah, so we are based in Golden, Colorado, and we buy existing and develop self-storage properties. And we do all of our properties and projects through syndication. So we raised capital from private investors and we go out and buy storages that we can buy and get existing cashflow on. And then we can eventually either expand them or just improve operations to make additional income. We also build self-storage from the ground up and we do a little bit of RV park investing as well, but storage is the primary focus. So, you know, previously, we were land developers and built condos and flipped houses and focused on storage mostly just because of the recession resistancy, you know, during downtimes. And when we were first looking at the industry, that really is what you know, attracted us to jump into the business. Was the, you know, kind of how it performed during the last two recessions. James: Got it, got it. Yeah. I mean, I did a lot of research of different asset classes. I wrote it in my book as well. Like how many asset class, six asset class for the past 15 years and just on my own, this is not from Marcus and Millichap or this is not from CoStar.  I looked at all the asset class and was looking at all the past 15 years report, which that's a report called Integra Realty Resources. That's the report that all the commissioner pays us a report to, that's the organization. And I was looking at self-storage and multifamily and all that. I was surprised to see that self-storage did do well the past 15 years, even during the downturn. I know at the beginning, you know, 15 years back, they didn't really allocate a specific asset class for it, but they did talk about it. And in general, I didn't see any downturn, even though every other asset class goes up and down. So that's very interesting. And why do you think is that? Ryan: Because it relies on life events and life events never stop happening. No, I'm serious. You get divorced, typically, stuff goes in storage. You renovate your house, stuff goes into storage. In times of good times, stuff goes into storage and times and the bad time, stuff goes into storage. When you get downsized, when you move, when your job relocates, when there's a disruption in the market that triggers self-storage events. And added onto that, businesses use it because not everybody can park their work truck in their HOA driveway, if they're in a covenant restricted community and not everybody can have all their utilities and supplies in their house. And so, you know, simpliest way to say it, you know, for an extra 50 bucks a month, imagine having a whole other room in your house. And that's really been a big driver for demand and self-storage.  We like it because unlike other asset classes, when a customer comes in, we have a lien against all of their stuff. So if they don't pay, we can auction that off for a profit. So, you know, the revenue loss is much lower for you know, the potential when a tenant doesn't pay. With COVID and everything, there was still a rental rate, great increases. We still had high occupancy. We still can host auctions and have people move out if they don't pay. We held back on that in a couple of properties and a couple of markets, but for the most part, you know, we didn't have the government restrictions that a lot of other asset classes had on that kind of stuff. James: Got it. Well, I mean, I'm sure the audience is thinking why not James jump on self-storage. So but let me tell you why I didn't, you can always debate this. So one thing I didn't jump on self-storage at that time. I mean, of course, for me, focus is very important. I mean, every asset class has so many nuances in it. I mean, it's not easy, even though self-storage is like four walls and there's nothing in it, but there's a difficulty in finding the deal and difficulty in executing the business plan and turn around and, you know, disposition and all that. So, I mean, but I didn't do it because at that time there was not much of nonrecourse loan available, I think, unless you go really low on the leverage. So how is that right now? Ryan: You can get a non-recourse right now on ground-up construction James: On ground-up construction. Okay. Got it. What about on the... Ryan: Oh, and of course you know, that would be rare in our industry. Of course, on buying existing self-storage properties, non-recourse is widely available. James: Got it. Okay. So now it's available right now, at what leverage level? Ryan: It just depends. I think we just tied up a deal that around 70 to 75% non-recourse institutional loan. So, you know, it just depends on the lender. Depends on the deal. Depends on the play. James: Oh yeah. I had a friend who was like 85 years old. He's a broker, but he's a very healthy guy. And he said he started multifamily and moved on to storage and he owns a lot of storage unit and I was calling him and he said, maybe at that time, he said, yeah, it's hard to find non-recourse loans. The other challenge in storage is, you know, I mean, anybody can build a new self-storage development in front of your storage unit. It's very easy to build Ryan: Maybe. Yeah. So, you could say that as a general statement, that wouldn't apply everywhere. So there's a lot of moratoriums on storage. There is a lot of restrictions. Some communities don't have zoning for it. Some cities quite frankly, would not allow you to use it at all. So, you know, it just depends on where you are. Some jurisdictions it's, Oh yeah, come build it. No problem at all. So you just need, you know, it just depends on the market. You know, we have markets where there's no zoning and we could build whatever we wanted and there are markets where it's taken us 40 years to get a permit. So it really just depends. And then there are some markets where you get your permit and then they slap a moratorium on there and you can't build your storage anymore. That's happened out here in Washington and a few places.  So you really got to pay attention. And, you know, and I think really if someone was like, what's the one thing that I could take away from talking to a storage operator? It's the market study. It really comes down to: do you have the demand and is there the supply of people and demand essentially in the market to fill up your property or execute your business plan? It's huge. You know, someone might say, is storage a good play? I don't know, make up a city, Austin, Texas and I will say, well, generally, no, it's not, it's actually a terrible market, no offense, but it might be good on one side of the town and catastrophic on the other side. It's a three-mile business so it's like whatever's happening around in that immediate micro-market is really what it comes down to. So some markets are generally better, some markets are generally worse, but at the end of the day, it's right in that five, 10 minute drive time of the property. In the market study, that makes the difference. James: So, all your details that you're telling me right now, that's why I say there are so much of nuances in any asset class that outsiders may not know. I mean, it's easy to say, you know, it's easy to build but there's so much of a market research knowledge that, you know, only the operators who are specialized in it knows about it. So, and I do have a lot of respect for every asset class operators. There are definitely people who are really good at that. So let's walk through a deal in self-storage.  So not in terms of deal underwriting, but let's look at the demographic of that storage. Let's say you found land in a city. Walk us through the steps you would take to say whether this is a good site for a self-storage facility? Ryan: So a couple of things. The first thing I would look at is what's the population. So I would drop in on the facility, we have data and maps that will show us the drive times. And then based on those drive times, we'd get the population within the drive times of the property. And then we would look at saturation levels. James: And what are the drive times? Minutes? Ryan: Yeah, four minutes. I think we use eight minutes and 15 minutes. Think of it this way. If you're in an urban core, you're not going to drive 15 minutes across town, you're going to drive eight minutes so that there's relevancy to where you are in the market. But what we look at is, you know, we'll look at what are the comparable rent comps to what our subject facility is charged. So, you know, we might be getting $15 a square foot on the average but it's important to know kind of what type of facilities those are: three-story glass, Class A facilities, are they first-generation roll-up metal buildings, you know, big difference. Is it non-climate controlled is it climate controlled and in that market, is it a hot market, like a warm climate that likes self-storage to be climate controlled? Or is it a market that prefers drive-up or, you know, climate control would be overkill and people would be unwilling to pay the extra money for that.  So we look at price per square foot, you know, probably just like multifamily. And then, for Spartan, we look at the ability to add onto that property, you know, can we expand it and what is the existing dirt that's there? What is it? Is it flat gravel? Are there stormwater requirements, setbacks, easements restrictions, how usable is that land, and how much would it take to get the land pad ready? Cause we're developers. I mean, we take properties and develop them into bigger... James: What about zoning? Ryan: Zoning is important. That's kind of a little bit further down on the checklist. The top thing is demand. Cause you know, you could have, Oh, this is a zone for self-storage. And of course, everybody knew that. And then everybody built, a bunch of storage is there and there's no demand. James: But is it easy to change as zoning from, let's say in multifamily to self-storage?  Ryan: Ah, that's a loaded question.  James: Maybe not multifamily. I know residential has a lot of high priority in terms of city development. Let's say, commercial office building, commercial land to self-storage. Ryan: I mean, it depends. I know you don't like the word, it depends, but it depends. So like if you are looking in a market where, you know, we entitled the self-storage project in a city that had no zoning for storage. So everything was a conditional use permit. Everything was a public hearing. The public had come in, the city had to make a recommendation to a hearing examiner. Huge process. We've taken a residential land and rezoned it into commercial so we could build self-storage. We had to go in front of the board of county commissioners. We had to go in front of, you know, there had to be room for public comment. There was opposition, but we were successful and got the land entitled, but every jurisdiction is just a little bit different. We've bought properties that are zoned for storage and we've gotten the entitlements and they can take anywhere from two to six months to get it,  it's a building permit, you know, depending on how fast you're pushing and assuming no closures in the city and things like that. It just runs the gamut. You know, as I said, I have colleagues in the industry that have bought property, they got the entitlements. So yeah, you can build storage here. And then the city puts a moratorium on storage and now they can't build anything. So they bought this land, they got the entitlements, they've spent all this money, now they can't even build it.  James: How do you prevent that kind of thing from happening? Ryan: You don't. James: Because you've already bought the land.  Ryan: I mean, you could negotiate the contract to close upon building permits, but then you've got to find a willing seller and you know, of course, that's always a negotiation.  James: It's too messy, I guess. Ryan: But yeah, when you develop, I mean, it can be riskier and there's a potential for a bigger return but you also introduce a lot more risks. So yeah. I mean, is it easy to do? It can be, and it can be very difficult to the point of being impossible so it really just depends.  James: So when you guys raised the money from your investors, have you already done that, let's say for a [13:57unclear]  project. Have you already done that part or are you are still looking at that entitlement? Ryan: Yeah, we've really learned our lessons through the year. So you know, we bought a storage property and when the rezone of the land from, you know, so you have kind of a couple of different phases of development when you're doing like the paperwork to get it ready to go vertical. So the last thing you get is their building permit. So your building permit is pretty straight down the fairway; that is meeting building codes, getting your building permit, not a lot of risk in that - a risk, but there's not a lot of risks. But the phase just before that might be your entitlement so that you can actually do what you want to do, or might even be some type of site plan development where the city has to approve your site plan but you don't necessarily have your drawings done for the buildings they've just approved. Okay. Building here, building here, building here, this is your height. This is your step back. This is how much square footage you're going to deliver and a site plan approval. And then you have the zoning that might be before that. And it might already be zoned that that might be your first step. You know, do I meet the zoning if I don't, I might have to rezone that could take years. So, you know, we just kind of look at the projects and negotiate with the seller to buy the property. You know, when it hit a point where we're comfortable with closing on the land, and then we negotiate the purchase and sales agreement as such, and then we do the raise in accordance with how we feel our comfort level to be. Because we don't want to raise the money until we know we can do what we want to do. And you know, we've really refined our processes for that over the years to know that, Hey, we can close. And we've gotten better at negotiating. Like how can you expect me to buy this land and I don't even know I can do what I want do with it? If it's a hot market, you know, make a decision; you either want it, or you don't. If it's a property that's been sitting on the market for a year, you can come up with some pretty creative ways to keep the property tied up while you go through that process. James: So how many percents of these 4,000 units were developed versus how many were bought from....? Ryan: 25% James: 25% newly developed. Okay. Are you guys more trending towards development rather than buying? Ryan: That's a great question. I would probably say we're buying more than we are developing right now for no reason other than our development pipeline is full enough. Development is expensive and development requires a lot of cash and you don't want too many of them going on at one time. So we have two very large, about $22 million right now with development. Actually, no, we probably have about $30 million in development right now and that's about our comfort level. That's our spend for 2020 for development and we really don't want to get much past that. We also only develop in the states that we live in so Washington and Colorado. Adding onto a property is not a big deal, but we don't like to do ground-up development where we go through the whole process if we live out of state, because inevitably if you want to get things done, you gotta be down at the county, down at the city hall, down at the office, all the time. You're going down there all the time. Oh, you want this? Okay. No problem. James: Otherwise, it's going to just take forever to get a project done. Ryan: And who wants to fly an hour and a half somewhere to drop off a piece of paper and then fly back? I mean, it's just not efficient. So we just like to be in town.  I can't tell you how many times I've gone down there to, you know, shake the trees and get progress. James: Yeah. I've done a small land development beside my apartment. We were converting it. We were combining the adjacent plot of land into the apartment. And that itself was a lot of work already. But the city was supportive and it went through well by just the amount of paperwork, the amount of bureaucratic process that you have to go through. So, absolutely. What about a demographic? I mean, we talked about demographics. How do you say that this particular submarket is a good demographic for a good self-storage business? Ryan: We like at least 1% growth. We like to see trending growth. We like to see 50,000 income. We like to see saturation levels like a seven square foot per utilization for storage. James: How do you get that data? Seven square feet per utilization? Ryan: We have Radius Plus and we use a couple of different programs. Radius and there's one other program that James: So Radius is a software for self-storage investors? Ryan: Yes. James: Okay. For them to see the demand, I guess. Ryan: If you gave me an address, within 20 minutes, I could tell you what's the drive time around it. I could tell you the demographics. I could tell you the demand. I could tell you all the permits in the pipeline. So that's another thing. This is great. I can tell you everybody who's building, everybody who's applied, who's canceled, who is coming. And then of course we do our boots on the ground research where we go knock on doors and go to the city and ask them like, Oh, Hey, you know, is anybody else? Oh yeah, John, you know, he was over here last week. You know, that doesn't show up on record but the intent. And then you go talk to John and you say, Hey, you're really going to do this because we're thinking about doing it too. And we've got into situations like that and you know, either we've given up or they give up or whatever, and we just move on to a different market if the market can't supply all that additional. James: So does the self-storage purchase involves stringent requirements or stringent terms like what multi-families like day one, hard money, you know, very tight on inspection, do due diligence process? Ryan: It's extremely competitive. And it might be as competitive or more competitive as multifamily. Because when people think of storage, they're like, Oh, I've never really heard of that. I don't know what that is. And then they do multifamily and they're like multifamily is really hard. You know, there's always people doing it and Oh my God, there's so much competition. Maybe I'll go try storage because it'll be less competitive. And then they go over to storage and they're like, Oh, there's a lot of people that do this. But what the difference is there are so many multifamily properties in the United States. Self-storage, you can't even hold a candle to the wind. I mean there are 50,000 facilities total in the entire United States. So yeah, when you're talking about competition, if you're looking at a property that's a million dollars or less, no problem. You can go bid on it as a mom and pop.  When you go a million to maybe 6 million that you can reposition or that, you know, show some signs of a mom and pop operations, you're competing against the best of them. You know, the all-cash, close in 30 days, 60 days, whatever it might be. But generally what we do is we do about 10% earnest money deposit...sorry, not 10%. On a $6 million facility, we might put up anywhere from 25 to 50K. And that doesn't go hard until due diligence is completed and signed off on. James: Oh, okay. So that's not bad. It's not like day one hard money, like what's happening in multifamily, right? Ryan: No. And if we were in that space, we wouldn't play that game. So yeah, whether you think it or not, you're competing with yourself at that point. You're worried about losing that money. I mean, we have a 100% contract-to-close ratio, so everything that we've put under contract we've purchased. I mean, we had a bank pull out three days before closing, we went and raised a private loan. We did our own deal. So we've done everything to really help get the deal closed and we've got that reputation to close. And I think that people value our relationship a lot more than they do necessarily how much earnest money we put up. And we've had a broker bring us a lot of deals and just keeps bringing us deals because we make it real simple on them. You know, it's a very simple process with us. We get everything on the table. We are very transparent and as you know, in multifamily that'll go a long way. Any business, right? James: Yeah. That's true. That's true. Yeah. I mean, brokers, love people who are easy to deal with. Because you know, this is just multimillion-dollar deals and you do not want to have a tough person to work with when you're going to such a big transaction. So at a very high level, what are the value add that you usually do in self-storage? Ryan: Cameras for security, rental rate increases. James: So what, you put a camera and you get higher rental rate or it's just...? Ryan: People walk in and they want to feel secure. So our target customer is a 70-year-old woman, that's who rents our properties. So when they walk to your property, is it dark, are there cameras, is it secure? Does it feel like the fence is going to fall over? So we take the properties, we'll put in a new fence, we'll put in new cameras, we'll paint all the doors, we'll replace doors, we'll rehab the office, we'll put in notary services, we'll put in ice and vending machines.  James: Why do you need a notary service in a self-storage facility?  Ryan: Convenience. So we like to be a shop of convenience. So if somebody has got an Etsy, Amazon, they have a home-based business and they can come to our storage facility, they can drop their FedEx/UPS deliveries off at one of our properties. They can get their items notarized. They can ship, they can store. We even have a car wash at one of our properties. So, we try to be a place of convenience for people. Not that we were going to make any money on it. It's just a place where people can go and know that I rent my Uhaul truck to move my goods somewhere. At your property, I can notarize my documents, I can store my belongings, I can do a lot of different things to transact and do my business obligations. And so what we try to be kind of a helpful facility. Not all of our facility does that because not every facility even has an office. But the ones that do, you know, we sell retail. We start, you know, people pay cash, we get rid of cash payments and we go to as many automated payments as possible. We enforce the lease. You know, a lot of these facilities we take over, tenants might not even be on adequate leases. So without being on an adequate lease, you don't have an adequate lien against their belongings. You can't do an auction.  James: Have you guys done auctions? Ryan: All the time. James:  It's like Storage Wars on TV, right?  Ryan: Yeah. Yeah.  James: That really happens? Ryan: Yeah. The semantics are true or the actual process is true, but the way that it's carried out is not true. So nobody goes in person, you know, there are some old school places that still kind of do that, but we do them online. So you can go to selfstorageauctions.net, you can register. And then in your neighborhood, there could be a storage auction and you get alerted like, Oh, Hey, this unit is going up for auction. You can kind of log into your account and see, Oh, what's in there. James: All right. I can see all our audience and listeners are doing that right now. I didn't even know that. What was the website? Ryan: I think it's selfstorageauctions.net. And so as a company, what we do is we say, you know, that the storage auctions is revenue producing or whatever. They're not really revenue-producing. They're basically just to get you to get out and get a new customer in. Like we clear out the, you know, and it's the threat of losing your stuff, right? If you don't pay, you lose your stuff. James: So it's like an eviction process, I guess.  Ryan: Right.  James: Except the government can put the moratorium like what they did in multifamily right now. Ryan: The government hasn't touched us. So usually within 30 to 60 days, if you're not...so let's say, your rent is due today. If you haven't been paid in five days, you get a late fee and your unit gets locked automatically. So the gate code that lets you into our properties, the revenue management system will automatically turn the gate off.  James: Really? [26:40crosstalk]  Ryan: We over-lock your unit. You can't even get into your unit.  James: You don't pay your rent and after five days, it locks by itself? Ryan: Just like that. And then we'll over-lock you. So we'll put a red lock on your unit as well. Some of our properties will have the smart locks where it'll lock behind the door so you can't get in, you can't get into your stuff. So if you don't pay after five days, you're automatically locked out. So we liked that. We don't have to really manage that too hard. I mean, there's, you know, we have property managers are onsite staff that deals with that, but the gate code, that's automatic. And then once you pay it, we'll let you back in. But if you don't pay, you're locked out. So now you don't have access to your stuff and after 30 days we do our notices, our legal notices and then, we can take pictures of your property, do our publications and then it goes on this website and then people can buy your stuff.  And then you know, any earned income from that auction goes directly to us first, to recoup the costs of whatever the tenant owed us and then any costs of legal fees associated with it. And then anything that's left over after all of our money has been recouped, goes to the tenant, you know, cause they gotta be compensated for their stuff. So, we get paid first and then, but most importantly, we get our unit back and in multifamily or residential, they might trash the place. They're gonna do whatever they do. In storage, I mean, you can try to trash the place, but I mean, it's a box. And you know, we just sweep it out. They moved their stuff out and they're gone. And then, you know, for us, we just get our unit back and we let our customers know when they book, you know, Hey, sign up for our online auctions. You know, so they can bid on stuff and they can also know that, Hey, we do online auctions.  So a lot of places we take over, I mean, the delinquencies are a mess when we take over and that's a way to increase value. So we took over property last year, for example. And I just heard from our management that, you know, auctions were like, I mean, there were people that were 180 days delinquent and the manager just wasn't collecting on the units, they just weren't enforcing the rules. So we'll come in and we'll just follow the rules. You know, your lease says this, if you don't pay with this, you go to auction, you know, and then we make money on late fees. And some facilities that we take over don't charge late fees. I mean, if you don't pay on time, you should get charged a late fee. So there's a lot of different things we can do. You know, and plus we'll repaint, we'll redo the doors. Some doors of the old cabinet doors, you know, to open up the lock, the storage locker, we'll put the roll-up doors on them. We'll improve the lighting, we'll redo the asphalt, whatever it might be, we just get it nicer so that the customer feels safe and secure and they feel like they're getting good value for their money.  James: Got it. Got it. Got it. All right. Why don't you tell our audience how to get hold of you and your company?  Ryan: Yeah, sure. So my email is Ryan@spartan-investors.com. Our website is spartan-investors.com.  James: Awesome. Thanks for coming in and adding tons of value to our listeners and audience. Thank you.  Ryan: Yeah, you're welcome. It was nice meeting you, by the way.    

Ryan unpacks the different social media platforms and how you can use them to sell your product. He explains where you should start and then where you can test the waters next. Jon and Ryan also provide an update about what you need to know about the recently released Facebook Shops. TRANSCRIPT: Jon: Hey everybody, just a quick note before we jump into this episode, we recorded this episode on Selling on Social before Facebook Stores was launched, but everything we discussed still applies and is relevant. But stick around until the end, we are going to record an update on selling on social media with some details on Facebook Stores. So enjoy the episode and be sure to stick around towards the end, and you'll get an update. INTRO MUSIC Jon: So Ryan, it's probably a bit maybe cliche to say that everyone is on social media these days, but as a digital marketer, it's true, right? If you're not selling on social media platforms, are you really even trying to succeed? The more I thought about this, the more I thought at The Good we don't do anything around driving traffic, which obviously would include advertising or selling on social media. So I thought, "Why not learn a thing or two from Ryan and your 6,000 clients experience at Logical Position today?" So Ryan, I'm excited to have you, to school me on selling on social. Ryan: Oh man, it's such a big topic and such a big opportunity, I think, that so few brands are capitalizing on, fascinates me. Jon: Well, this will be fun then. So Ryan, let's start with the big picture, when I say social, what channels does that really include? Ryan: I would say when most people say social or selling on social, social advertising, they're most likely referring to Facebook and Instagram, it's the big 800 pound gorilla in the industry. But there are quite a few other platforms that I would probably bucket into that social platform and the advertising and traffic driving that you can execute there. You've got one that a lot of people forget, and it's probably unfortunate there, but Twitter, you can still advertise on there should you want to. Pinterest has some advertising, Snapchat, you can advertise on. LinkedIn is a social channel that a lot of e-commerce companies forget about, there's still some value to be gleaned out of there for e-commerce, but it is pretty lead gen heavy. Jon: Yeah, I love LinkedIn. Ryan: LinkedIn is great for our prospecting and finding just people that talk about it, there's a lot there. And I think it's under utilized for a lot of companies, but it's also, I think, confusing to a degree on how you sell on a business social tool. Do you have any e-comm clients that are doing anything on LinkedIn that you know of? Jon: No, I don't, but I thought that's such a great one that you could run some highly targeted ads on, pretty easily. Ryan: Yeah, if you know who your target market is, and if it's a... Just a conversation with a guy that was selling to doctors today, and I was like, "Well, if you're selling it to doctors and you know that there is a certain role at a doctor's office that always is responsible for finding your product or deciding to buy it, you could target all of those people on LinkedIn very easily." So I think there's opportunity there, I don't think it says much about, on LinkedIn at least, getting click-buy, it's part of the process generally. But with some of the other platforms too, like TikTok, for some reason has just jumped out at me over the last, just two weeks. We've actually had a bunch of clients reach out and say, "Hey, we want to get onto TikTok and do some advertising, how can you help us?" That came out of left field for us, we're like, we know it's there, but we were so focused on Facebook and Instagram with them that we hadn't been pushing for other channels. So, that was on us to a degree, so I think there's some opportunity on TikTok. And then the other one that I think a lot of people maybe think of differently, YouTube has a very strong social component. But it's because it's run through the Google Ads platform, most people don't bucket it under social, but I think there's a component there that, to a degree, could be looked at that way. Jon: Yeah, a lot of people are sharing YouTube videos, right? And it's got a massive comment thread on videos, and they do make social sharing on there easy so that's a good one to think about. Okay, so I had never thought about LinkedIn in the way you're talking about and really hadn't thought about YouTube, so that's really interesting, that's good to hear. And TikTok, I just feel like maybe I'm too old for it, but that's a whole different situation. Ryan: You and me both, that's probably why I didn't have it top of mind. I was like, "TikTok, what are you talking about? That's just Gary Vaynerchuk trying to get people to like his social stuff. Jon: Yeah, but I mean the minute he's talking about it, it's probably the immediate time to jump into it. Okay, so when I'm thinking about selling on social, are we really talking about advertising or actually selling, right? So for instance, I've seen brands that do Instagram Ads, right? And I've seen brands that actually make their posts shoppable, and you can actually complete a transaction on Instagram now. So are we really talking here about advertising or are we talking about actually selling? Ryan: Well, I think it's both. I mean, I like the old adage, always be closing, always be selling. Like if you're an e-comm site, you need to constantly be thinking about how are people going to find me and buy my stuff. And I think if you have the ability, because not everybody can check out on Instagram, or every brand doesn't have that access, let me put it that way, not every site can just flip a switch and automatically be selling on Instagram without leaving the platform. It's still in controlled level, you have to have enough followers or you have to be invited into betas to a degree. But you want to sell as often as possible, and I think having that extra channel, if you can get that conversion on Instagram without them leaving, you do it. But all of them I think you're going to be advertising on, even if you can have the checkout on Instagram rather than your site, you're still going to be advertising to draw people to that checkout or to your page, and constantly try to find new users. And I think Facebook and Google both have a lot of creepy data, it's not a surprise to anyone, and I think Facebook even gets slightly more creepy, but it is phenomenal for marketers. We can upload a list of our clients, and then Facebook's algorithm can go find everybody on the world that looks like your current customers because they're more likely to be buying. If I buy your product and like it, you go find everybody else that has the same demographics as me, whether it's on a farm, has four kids, has too many businesses, there's maybe 10 of us out there. Jon: But all of them will buy. Ryan: But all of them will probably buy your product. So be thinking about both, I think, because of the algorithm. A lot of people forget about this, but the Googles and the Facebooks of the world, the dominant ad platforms, they've created a free platform for everybody and they make money by ads, and so they have an incentive to get people to click ads. And so on Facebook, not everybody that follows your brand, Facebook and Instagram, not everybody that follows you will see your post. And so promoting posts, getting your ads out there, you have to feed the beast, to a degree, and make sure that you're leveraging the ad platform appropriately to get the right content in front of the right people. Jon: Got it, okay. So where do you recommend brands start then? What channels and how would you best utilize those channels if you're just starting out? Ryan: Some of it depends on the size of the organization and the budget to start with. If you're already a $10 million online brand and you hadn't advertised on social, that would surprise me, but it probably exists somewhere. You could probably start a little more aggressively than somebody that hasn't hit their first $100,000 in online revenue yet, but the general rule of thumb that I have for most brands is start with remarketing on Facebook and Instagram. It's all done through the same platform on Facebook, since they own Instagram, and if you're remarketing to people that went to your site and didn't purchase, you'll get a good gauge of what kind of potential Facebook and Instagram have. So if people that went to your site didn't buy, come back and buy through remarking ads at a rate that makes sense for your company and your products, it indicates there's potential for prospecting or finding new users that haven't heard of you yet. But if people, through remarketing, are not coming to your site and buying, it would lead me to hypothesize that finding new users is not going to be the best opportunity for through that social channel, because remarketing generally always works better than prospecting as far as the return on investment. So start there, and also understand that when you move beyond just the remarketing pixel on the remarketing ads, social is not like search, it's not a demand capture. People, for the most part, are not going to a social channel to find a product to purchase, generally you're interrupting their flow of connecting with friends and family or coworkers, and convincing them to click an ad to go outside of that flow to look at a product, it's something they probably hadn't been thinking about before. Jon: Yeah, that's such a great point. You really think about, at least in my business, around conversion, right, it's all about that capture and not the creation portion. And that's a really great point that if you are able to create that demand and then make it easy to do the capture or conversion at that point, then you're really going to see some great return on that ad spend here. Ryan: Yeah, and understand too, that generally as you move up the funnel of purchase, the return on ad spend drops, but I think it becomes more important as you're driving people to your site off of a social channel, to focus on that conversion optimization. You want them to be sticky and you want them to buy then, if at all possible, remove as much friction as humanly possible on social traffic because once they leave, go back to the social platform, you're no longer top of mind, now you're going to be remarketing to bring them back in. So it probably extends the purchase life cycle, if I could say it that way, when they're coming from a social channel. Not always, depends on how impulsive the purchase is, but you just have to generally be watching data very closely on social as you're looking to get sales there. Jon: Okay, so let's say a brand has been successfully selling on social already, what's the next step you would recommend? Ryan: Probably the same as with all of your marketing, it's test, test, test again, test again, test again, and not ever be satisfied with where you're at. You'll be trying out new ad sets, maybe if you haven't done video before, you need to do video, you're going to be testing new platforms. And so this is one where it's easy to get stuck on Facebook and Instagram and assume that that's your social media marketing, that's it, you're done, you've got it covered. But if you take me for example, I don't know how many years ago, maybe... gosh, I'm getting old, but what is it 15 years ago that we started on Facebook, maybe? I don't remember when it came out, but probably a while ago, and I was on Facebook for a while, thought Instagram was really stupid, why would people just not want to read anything, they just want to look at pictures, and then realize, "Oh, Instagram is pretty cool." I no longer really go to Facebook, I am on Instagram because it's easier to scroll through the feed maybe, but I'll go in maybe once a week and check on Facebook. My mom's on Facebook now, she's not that interesting to me to follow on Facebook. She's retired, she sits at home and it's just not as interesting. And so people are going to constantly be moving from platform to platform, I think. And I think as Instagram ages, we'll probably move to something else. People have moved to Snapchat, maybe it's going to be TikTok. Jon: TikTok, there you go. Ryan: Who knows? But you want to be making sure that you're aware of the demographic shifts, maybe the baby boomers start moving on to Instagram in a heavier flow, and all the gen-xers like myself were going to fall off and go somewhere else because we don't want to be hanging out with our parents on social media. Jon: Yeah, this is what's really interesting to me about social media, it's so easy... and I think as an outsider, obviously I'm not printing campaigns, but it's so easy to target different demographics because it's pretty clear what channels they're on. If you want to advertise to the teenager, you're going to advertise on TikTok, that's just generally where they're going to be right now. They're not going to be on Facebook, we know that. But if I want to advertise to Ryan's mom, I'm going to go to Facebook, right? It's just where it is. So yeah, that's something to definitely think about, but what I'm hearing from you is the core tenants of digital marketing apply to social, right? So whether you're doing ads from Google or you're doing ads on Facebook, it's really the same core tenants, it's just a little bit different, perhaps, on the execution. Ryan: Yeah, and the important metrics are going to be a little bit different. So whereas Google's algorithm is fairly advanced, and we have a lot of really quality data around quality score, for example, we know what goes into it, we know what makes up a quality score, and how to manipulate it to get a higher one. Whereas some of that information on Facebook isn't as readily available, and there's more testing and measuring to figure out what is going to work and what's going to be a good click through rate. It may be different for different ad sets, and there's a lot more visual ad types you can create on Facebook than maybe just text ads and shopping ads on Google. Understand it's different, but it's all the same thing, we're always looking at data and deciding what to do based on what the data is telling us. And on their demographic point too, there are young people on Facebook. And so if you do want to target younger people, you just set your targeting for younger people. You may not spend as much as you could on, say, Instagram or on maybe TikTok and be going to teenagers, but there's millions and billions of people on each platform so there's a lot of eyeballs. Jon: So would you recommend then that when a brand is looking to choose a social channel to sell on, that demographics would be their first elimination point? Or I'm hearing from you that, obviously there are, yes I agree, there's younger people on Facebook as well, perhaps, but would you still recommend demographics be that first deciding point where to start at choosing a social channel to sell on? Ryan: That's probably going to vary quite a bit depending on the brand and what you're selling. I mean, almost across the board, I'd probably recommend most companies start for the first time on Facebook, Instagram. It's a mature platform, you really know what to expect out of it, people expect to see ads, click ads and go somewhere else, and get basically their flow interrupted, it's not an uncommon thing to see an ad and click. I mean, I remember one of the best ads on Instagram was somebody that showed me a paddleboard surfboard with a rocket engine on the bottom of it. And I was like, "I didn't even know I needed that until I saw that on Instagram, and now I need to spend $2,000 on that even though I don't have-" Jon: Now you can be lazy during your workout. Ryan: Exactly. So start with what's known, where there is a lot of talent to execute for you, because there's not a lot of people right now that are TikTok marketing experts on the planet. And so if you're going to go off and start on TikTok, it may be much more difficult to get the goals that you want achieved there. Start there and then branch out as you see data, so set the demographics, knowing let's say you're going to target the younger demographic, and so people that are 18 to 24. You start on Facebook, Instagram, set your target demographics there, see how many there are, see how they respond, because you have a lot of... a mature platform is just easier to work on generally, knowing that you probably want to end up on TikTok as well, Snapchat, and expand out of that once you have a baseline to say, "Okay, I know that Facebook, Instagram, I get this return on ad spend, let's see how TikTok actually works for my brand as far as a return." Jon: So, I get asked this question all the time, Ryan, what's a good conversion rate, and people don't like my answer, generally, because- Ryan: Better. Jon: Yeah, one that's improving, right? That's generally how you should be thinking about it. Is there a goal for brands when it comes to selling on social, should we be thinking about specific goals or is there a percentage of a brand's overall revenue you prefer to see coming from selling on social? What are the metrics that you think are most impactful, and are there general standards for those metrics that people should be aiming for? Ryan: Unfortunately, no, it is very similar to the CRO question that it's an improving one, and you've got to look at your brand and who's buying, why they're buying, and where are they buying. So if you sell CNC machines online, you're probably not going to get a lot of direct conversions out of social for that. But it's an awareness thing, you can do some good top of funnel work there, that maybe it's not necessarily the final attribution is coming from social, but it is on the path. And so I think it's only going to get more and more complex as we continue to get more ways to engage with people through different channels, that I would probably never be able to put an exact number on it. But one thing I do like doing, and I do this in my own brands, I keep each marketing team siloed to a degree, so the Google Ads group, the social media group, I generally, personally at least, don't want the same team doing both because I want them both competing for a share of my sales. I want them to say, "Hey, the social should be bigger." Okay, if the same person's running Google and social, they may not care which one's bigger, they just want to push where it's maybe easier. And I think there's always a chance to win on social or win on Google, but I want hungry teams that are going to make that channel work no matter what. And so I would say, I always want it to be more but I also don't want to lose money. Anybody can sell a million dollars through Facebook, but some companies, it might cost you 20 million to sell that one million and so it's not worth it. So you just have to be aware and monitor what's happening and where that social channel fits for your brand. One of my brands, I haven't even gotten it on social advertising yet, I'm still Matt trying to max out Amazon and then I'm going to try to max out Google, and then I'm going to try to push on social. So there's so much you can do that it becomes mind boggling at some point to where you can be pushing a brand. Jon: Awesome. Well, I think we've sufficiently tackled this topic. Do you feel the same? Ryan: I mean, it depends on who's probably asking that question, but I feel like at least we've covered a topic and we've gotten some good insights. Jon: So Ryan, we promised at the start of this episode that we'd provide an update on the just released Facebook Stores, and I'm counting on you to educate me because quite honestly I heard about it, but I did not read anything about it. So can you give us a quick overview of what Facebook Stores is? Ryan: Yeah, so welcome to the world of e-comm, where things change more rapidly than we can produce podcasts, but it means it's fun and things are constantly changing. So Facebook Stores is basically what it sounds like, it is a store for your business on Facebook properties, mainly Facebook and Instagram. Allows people to checkout on the platform, many companies were, at least, aware of the checkout on Instagram feature that was in closed beta for a while, so it's basically all of that rolled into one. Facebook has an entity they're trying to release quickly to help local [inaudible 00:21:06] that maybe never had a website, offer the ability to transact online, at the boiled down version of it. Jon: Okay, and do you think this was in reaction or response to COVID and a lot of retail not being open? Ryan: I think that was the initial thought, but I think it was also quite an opportunity for the Facebook engine to push into e-comm with a lot of people paying attention, and that's a very easy release at that point. Jon: Great, and so it's separate, because I know Instagram is owned by Facebook, but it's separate from, or is it somehow linked to Instagram? I know you could sell on Instagram for some time now, not necessarily in a store, but you can do shoppable posts. Ryan: You can do shoppable posts, but those still take you to your website for transaction. There was that swipe up feature that was very popular, if you get over 10,000 followers, you get automatically put into it if you're a verified Instagrammer. A lot of value to those, we've seen some great data, but this is the next iteration of that, which is you don't have to leave the Instagram platform to transact. Once you've transacted on Facebook or Instagram, they store your data if you want them to so you can easily transact without having to put any data in. So just kind of try to make it as seamless as possible. So a great [inaudible 00:22:26] I believe, but one of the things people are going to realize as they start doing their research is when you have such massive organizations that try to move nimbly and quickly, there's some struggle. So by no means is Facebook Stores just [inaudible 00:22:41] working for everybody as they think it would at this exact moment. In fact, even me personally, my wife and I are trying to get our businesses up on Facebook Stores, like with Shopify a couple days after it came out, did not work. It was not just a click a button, you are going. You've got to have some things in place that will allow your business to work, and so obviously you've got to a Facebook page, so if you don't have [inaudible 00:23:08] out there. If you're going after people that are in the younger [inaudible 00:00:23:14], younger than baby boomers, you should probably have an Instagram profile. You need to have a platform that can easily get products into Shopify, and so this where Facebook and their post called out a few partners in the intro that came out right after Zuckerberg's live thing, where they say, "Hey Shopify, BigCommerce, WooCommerce, ChannelAdvisor, CedCommerce, Cafe24, [inaudible 00:23:44], and Feedonomics can all [inaudible 00:23:46]. I don't think all those integrations are perfect yet, and I've tested on some Shopify sites where you can add the Facebook Commerce Manager, get the Facebook shopping plugin, the Instagram shopping plugin and it's be live [inaudible 00:23:59] not perfect. So I think that most businesses have to realize going into this is, if you've never been online before [inaudible 00:24:08] to accomplish that you've ever done. If I'm seeing articles and blogs from people, the e-comm experts not being able to do this, the switch, just with their knowledge, then I would say at least test measures and things, test [inaudible 00:24:22] things. If you get stuck, there are going to be a lot of blog articles, there are going to be a lot of help things within Facebook trying to solve these problems, but you're going to need some patience for sure. Jon: So Ryan, knowing all of that, how does one get access to Facebook Stores? Ryan: You need to go in and set up Commerce Manager, and so that's step one, like a great digital marketer that I am, I just go Google, Facebook Commerce Manager and find it. It wasn't as simple for me to find inside the Facebook platform, you also want to have a site like a Shopify, BigCommerce that already has a plugin for it, so you may need a plugin on that. Our Shopify site, we had to put a plugin on the site to get to send inventory over to Facebook, you've got to have something sending those product details over, along with inventory, what's available. Every business that has a Facebook page should be able to do Facebook Stores, but that doesn't automatically open up Instagram Stores, or so we're finding. There's a lot of misinformation out there, so you need to do some research on your own and see your business is able to do certain things. There were some articles that my wife came across that said, "Okay, if you try to do an Instagram Store, you can't do a Facebook Store and vice versa." I don't think that article is necessarily true, but the Instagram Stores or the Instagram checkout is still closed beta if you go to that page on Instagram. Jon: Okay. So, we should state that there's a lot in flux here, right? And we're doing our best to get this information out quickly, but things are changing rapidly is what I'm hearing from you as well. Ryan: For sure. So we're recording this today, and people are going to get access to it probably in a week and there's going to be constant change until we get to a homeostasis in the Facebook Stores environment, and so we'll probably have to do an update a little bit later. But as of now, just know that there's a lot of moving pieces at this point, and if you're on a platform that doesn't have an integration already built into Facebook, it's going to be much more difficult for you to get that thing set up. Jon: Okay, so what does Facebook cost? I assume they're not doing this for free. Ryan: It'd be nice if everything was free, but unfortunately Facebook is a business, and they have an obligation to shareholders to make money, nothing wrong with that, they do provide a service for free for people getting their own profiles. But as of now, they are charging 5% per transaction, now that is great in some areas, it does say that includes taxes and processing fees. And so that could be good, but I do have some struggle with that because if your business already has nexus in Washington, for example, you need to be collecting all of the sales taxes in Washington, which add up quickly. If you sell in Seattle, you're getting charged almost 10% sales tax up there, that that 5% just can't cover taxes. So that's how I know a lot of this is going to be changing and updating, because I'm not sure that it built out everything for tax collection perfectly. Because when you jump into e-comm and you have stores like mine and they sell on Amazon, their website, retail storefronts, I mean there is so many potentials for tax nexus they had to be collecting that Facebook sells a unit there, I'm on the hook actually as a merchant for that. And so that's where stores need to be aware that that's there. If Facebook doesn't collect the tax, nothing on them, I mean, they're not coming to Facebook for that, they're coming to the person that actually sold that product on Facebook for the tax. Jon: Right. So definitely something to keep track of, and I think we both know in e-comm, and there's whole companies dedicated to just helping you figure out your commerce tax situation. And it's down to the street level at times, local taxes and sometimes stuff like that. Ryan: Yeah, good luck in California, it's just not going to happen. Jon: So since this was released, and it is in beta as we were kind of talking about, what do you think is still being worked out with Facebook and their Stores platform? Ryan: Some of it, I think, is going to be that cost, like they want to have something that works and keeps it simple. But as of yet, I haven't seen how you can simplify commerce to a flat rate for everybody in every possible scenario. So I do think that's going to adjust somehow, and Facebook is potentially opening up for a local store that's never had a website, to sell across Facebook, which is a massive opportunity, but also adds in massive complexities to a small local business that [inaudible 00:29:10] had to consider before. Especially if you're in Oregon, where we don't have sales tax, that's just kind of a foreign thought to us that, "Hey, I can go anywhere I want, I buy something and whatever it says on the tag, I actually pay versus not having to worry about tax." Whereas I go to Washington, there's all kinds of taxes added on that as an Oregonian I'm just not thinking through. So an Oregon business, you have to be aware that most of the country charges sales tax, and if that collection's not there, how do you do it? And maybe Facebook has taken some liability in some of their fine print saying, "Hey, we're going to charge 5%, and we'll make it right, some how, some way." I don't necessarily think that Facebook shareholders [inaudible 00:29:50] too keen on that. Jon: Yeah, not for permanent, right? But I could see them doing that upfront to get users and to kind of buy their way in. Ryan: Yeah because it would be great if you could simplify processing and taxes into just one number to [inaudible 00:30:05]. You're just taking 5% and I'm done, that would be huge, and I think a great opportunity. Jon: I have to think, yes, we're in Oregon, so not really up on every other State sales tax, but I have to think that there's some States that have more than a 5% sales tax, right? So even just then, they would be losing on processing or any of the over right away. Ryan: Yeah, and it could be maybe they're pulling that from their small business fund that they talked about, where they say, "Hey, we're going to release a 100 million to small businesses." And so instead of giving them ad credits, they're just going to use some of that to collect the data. Because I think some of it Facebook needs is that data, because they've not done enough online commerce to actually have the data to know this is what it is and here's where things can go bad. Unless they hired some high up people at Amazon that have all this data that they could pull with them, I doubt it. Jon: Yeah. Well we all know that, and this perhaps is for a whole nother podcast, but we all know Facebook loves their data, so they'll get it one way or another. So is there anything we didn't talk about, you thought I should have asked you about Facebook Stores today? Ryan: I don't think so, I think as a business there's very little reason not to get into this channel and test it. Every business is going to have a different level of success with it, but if you're going to open up a massive channel, I think there's more risk to not exploring it than there is to explore it and put some of you inventory there and see what happens. I mean, I'm going to get all of my businesses on there that I can to say, "Hey, I want to be available where people are trying to transact." And if Facebook is successful at creating an e-commerce platform to rival the Amazon's or Google Shopping's, then I for sure want to be an early adopter into that system so I can get as much data as I can get to make smart decisions for myself and any of our clients. So I would say, get in, take some risk, take the time to study it, and just see how you can make it work for your business and your specific situation. Jon: Yeah, that's great advice. I mean, there's still millions and millions of people on Facebook, so it's a massive audience, right, and you might as well try to throw your store up there and see what happens. So, okay, great. Well, this is really helpful and I think it's a great add on, as we said, things are going to change rapidly with this, but hopefully this gets people started. They know where to look now, they have some understanding of what it's going to cost them, and why they should do it, and I think that's a great add onto this episode. So thank you, Ryan, again. And I look forward to doing an updated show in the future as things settle down with Stores. Ryan: Yeah, looking forward to it. Thanks, Jon.

Ryan is excited to dive into the often overlooked remarketing options for re-engaging those prospects who don't convert on their first visit to your commerce website. Contact Logical Position for remarketing needs at https://www.logicalposition.com/contact. Reach out to Ryan Garrow on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryangarrow/ Transcript JON MACDONALD: Ryan, good to talk to you again. Today we're going to talk about remarketing and re-engaging your audience, how does that sound? RYAN GARROW: Man, nothing gets me more excited, John. [laughter] RYAN: Marketing is a huge piece of online marketing driving traffic, it's an often-overlooked piece of digital marketing. I'm excited to drive into some of these details with you and hopefully shed some light on the mystery that is remarketing for most companies. JON: I really want to talk about a few things today, what do you do when someone doesn't convert on your site? You spend a ton to get folks to a site but then when they don't convert on that first visit because let's face it, most visitors aren't going to convert on their first visit, how do you keep marketing to them and close the sale and get that conversion? As my understanding, and hopefully, you're going to school me on this today this is typically what is called remarketing and it can be extremely powerful when done right. I do know that, tell me a little bit about how you and the team at Logical Position define remarketing? RYAN: Man, nothing as a marketer can make you more frustrated than somebody not doing what you wanted them to do when they came to the site because he spent all this time and energy sculpting traffic, eliminating waste saying, "All right, they are searching for my exact product and service. They are ready to buy, they're ready to put a credit card in." To get you into the right category or the right product page and then conversion rates on websites dictate that for almost every company we work with over 90% of that traffic goes somewhere else to do something and not take an action, and it just is frustrating. Especially if you do some of those real-time heat map watching and watching people on your site behind the scenes, you just get frustrated like, "Why didn't you click that? What's wrong with you? You should have just gone and clicked add to cart and buy?" Remarketing ends up becoming the step in the process next. You almost need to look at remarketing as a bunch of different layers. It's not just one simple, "We're remarketing, we're good." There's search remarketing, there's remarketing through email, there's remarketing through display ads. There's so many different things you need to be doing and be aware of in the e-Commerce space to help bring those people back to the site and take the action you want. Each one of them needs to have a lens of what's the return, am I doing it properly, is it generating the type of return that I need it to be as its own entity? When you look at driving traffic through paid search, and I think one of our earlier podcasts we talked about all traffic is paid traffic. At this point, it is requiring some level of investment to get that traffic to your site. Whether that's just time, energy, money, thought, something's happening that you're putting out there to bring people in. Paid search, hopefully, there's a return that's making sense with paid search as its own entity, search shopping, Bing, Google, Yahoo, whatever that looks like for you hopefully there's a return that makes sense. An additional marketing piece needs to be re-marketing, and it needs to have a return that makes sense for the business and for the products and services that you're selling. Within that re-marketing entity, there's different layers within that that say, there's this type of re-marketing and this type of re-marketing and this type of re-marketing and each one of those has different expectations for return. It may be five years ago re-marketing was vanilla and now we have the Baskin Robbins if you're in the Oregon area and you know Baskin Robbins, there are 31 flavors. There's all these different things you can be doing with re-marketing that for some brands it's overkill, you don't have enough traffic to use all of these wonderful different things. Other brands are using just the most basic remarket and they should be using a really complex additional layers of re-marketing to help drive different types of traffic, different ways, with different expectations. Brands should be doing it and they should be doing it more than likely more complex than they are. I think on average, most companies are not utilizing all the things they can be doing, even just through the simple Google platform of re-marketing, there's a lot there. JON: I look at this as two sides. One is what is the data that you need to be tracking or where are the points where you can then have data to know who to remarket to and then on what channels can you be re-marketing? Maybe we break that down. What events or obviously, there's the simple page view. Somebody views a particular page like a product detail page, you can then start re-marketing that product to them. What are some other options there for how to get data to know who to remarket to? RYAN: For simplicity purposes right now let's just focus on the Google re-marketing platform. Most companies are at least familiar with it, most people probably understand conceptually what the Google re-marketing is inside the Google Ads platform. All re-marketing is dependent on the data you're putting into these lists that you're re-marketing to. If you've got really crappy lists, you're probably going to get crappy re-marketing results. Step one is understand how you are breaking up your data. I would say as a general rule, more granular is better because you can combine those audiences into bigger groups. If you have really granular data sets within your lists in audiences, wonderful, use those, make sure that are in there. You can always make bigger groups but if you don't have the small granular groups you can't get to them. At least set them up there whether you use them or not, at least get them in there. By granular groups I'm talking about you should have a list for shopping cart abandoners. When I say list, it's an audience within Google ads. Let's have one for shopping cart abandoners, let's have one for product viewers, people that have viewed a product page. Let's have one for people that viewed a category page and people that only view the homepage, what's on the homepage and left. Site depth would be a good way of looking at that, the deeper they go on the site, the more likely they are to convert through remarketing and the messaging is probably different. What we see when we do this, when we add these in, and we add the audiences in for not only display ad re-marketing, which is an important piece to follow people around appropriately, we'll talk about some of the details on what's appropriate and what isn't later, but also re-marketing lists for search ads. If people go back and there's a heavily researched product that, "Hey, I found this one, it looks like it's good, then let me go back to Google and do a couple more searches to make sure that I'm not leaving a lot on the table as far as options or price point," you can bid on those people differently based on where they went on your site now. What we see, generally speaking, you're going to have a higher return on re-marketing the further down into the site they went. For example, people that were a shopping cart abandoner that you're re-marketing to are probably going to have a higher return to re-marketing than the person that went just to the homepage and bounced, fits the logic generally too. JON: These are all intent signals, you're looking for high intent? RYAN: Yes, to a degree. If somebody comes through a shopping ad they're obviously going to land on a product page. That same searcher could also land through a text ad on a category page. The search is exactly the same, I'm looking for a purple widget. If I click a text ad, I should land on a category page for purple widgets but I could also have clicked a shopping ad and landed on a product page. Same search, same intent that we saw on Google went to different spots on the site, but if I landed them on a category page and then they went and clicked on a product page we're probably getting the same level of intent on a purchaser as word there. If I clicked on the product image with a price point off of Google to your site, probably likely that they're looking to purchase one rather than I'm clicking on a text ad because I'm going to go to a category and do some more research. Then if I bounce re-marketing maybe a little bit different than someone that took an extra step. JON: That covers what you should be looking at to form that audience as you call it. It's not a list because you don't know who's part of that audience specifically, you can't get the individuals. Google masks that and tells you generally how many people are in that audience, is that correct? RYAN: Yes. Then each audience will tell you how many people you can re-market to on the display network and YouTube versus on a remarketing list for search ad. Because then you might have a 100,000 people in that audience but maybe only 30,000 of them you can remark it to as a remarketing list for search ads type thing. There's always going to be different numbers around those because of how Google is collecting data and allowed to present information around that as a re-marketing list. If you have medical devices of some sort or you're treating some medical problems, you may not be able to remarket at all on Google because that could potentially be personally identifiable information. If you share a computer with somebody and you don't want them to know that you may be feeling sick, you may have these symptoms or you may need-- I'm older than my wife so maybe if I need a knee brace, maybe I don't want her to know that I'm getting old and fragile. [laughter] RYAN: Google won't let people remarket it to me cause my wife might see that. That type of thing is a limitation within remarketing based on some products. JON: We both know we're getting old and fragile so we'll leave it at that. In terms of the platforms of which you can then take that audience and market to them, I heard you say Search terms, search ads, I heard you say YouTube, obviously display ads. What other mediums can be used for remarketing? RYAN: YouTube is a big one that I think most companies overlook, and there's this general opinion or thought around YouTube being complicated or difficult because you have to create a video and there's that barrier to entry there. Creating a remarketing video is really not difficult, it can even be very basic, it doesn't have to involve human or video, it could just be static images with voiceovers or image textovers. There's a lot of things you can do to make a pretty basic video on YouTube that can still be effective but the cost of YouTube is so low that your reach can go so far. What I tell people about YouTube is you do remarketing true view, which means they have to watch a certain amount of your video to be counted as a view that you actually pay for so they skip it. Everybody's seen those videos on YouTube that you skip before watching the cat video your mom sent you that you have to watch because she's going to bring it up when you're at dinner tonight. If you skip it, they don't pay anything. There's still some forced branding though because you have to watch five seconds but if you watch it, and you can do all kinds of overlays and allow people to click and go right to the site and the product that they were viewing, but if you watch it, it usually costs $0.10 to $0.12 for that view. The average click on the display network can sometimes be up over $1, $1.50, and so lots of opportunity on Youtube that people don't pay attention to as much. YouTube, email, you can remarket through email. In certain areas, you can remarket on the display network through dynamic ads or static ads that show the product you're looking at, and you can also do a list that allows you to bid differently on them based on their behavior of your website in the past. JON: That sounds interesting, it can get really complicated then. Of those, what do you think is the most powerful or has the highest ROAS, return on ad spend. RYAN: That is really going to vary, it's my most often response but my least favorite response, is it just depends. Every online company's probably going to have slightly different numbers based on their products, based on their website, and their conversion rates. Generally speaking, I really like the remarketing list for search ads, especially if you have a research product. People are going through the process are going to do a lot of searches before they buy something, finding out if that person is valuable or not to be bidding on again, and so many companies don't look at this. You can actually take this list of all the people that have visited your site before, and let's just say you sell coffee cups-- I'm staring at one in front of me. You sell coffee cups and this person searched for white coffee cup, came to your site, didn't buy, that's a list I can put in there. If they go back to Google again and they search for gray coffee cup or red coffee cup-- you don't even have to change your bids in there and you can see them because normally you'd be bidding on them again anyway because they're searching for another coffee cup, which you sell. You can see, "The people that have been to my site that searched this term either perform better or worse than the average person searching for this product off of Google." If it does better, you catch them again in the research process, and they perform better you bid up on them, be more aggressive because the return is higher, you have more you can be spending on them. If it's worse and once they've been to your site and they leave they're not going to buy on their second visit, then you just save the money, don't bid on them at all. You can actually spend that money on acquiring a new person to the site rather than somebody that's already been there and you know is not going to buy based on the data you see. There's a lot of levers that Google is now giving us as marketers that really can get creepy to a degree, but also really gives us actual leverage to push more return when it's necessary and then pull back when it's not. I think that those search ad remarketing lists can be super powerful. You can even do your past customers. Google does have an email match, you can upload your past customers into Google and create an audience around them and say, these 100,000 people have bought from me over the past decade. I upload them to Google Match generally, it's about 50%. Let's just say you have 50,000 people in an audience, you can now bid on them differently based on their search. If you sell mattresses, they're going to buy a mattress one time every 10 years on average, even though we're supposed to buy it more often than. That list of people, if they're going off and you know that they've bought in the past and they're searching again for another product you sell, maybe you can bid more aggressively on them. Because now you sell pillows, for example, and they're searching for a pillow and are like, "I really did like that mattress and they also sell pillows. That's great, I had a great experience on the mattress, now I can buy pillows." You can bid more aggressively on them even though it's a general search on pillows that maybe you wouldn't spend a lot of money on just by itself, but knowing something about that customer gives you the ability to be more aggressive than your competitors. It's a phenomenal subset of the remarketing world because you have some information about them. JON: This sounds like its own specialty. Just running ads is a specialty that you have to know a lot about, but even just going into the remarketing this is way deeper than I would have thought. RYAN: Man, we have an omnichannel strategy group now internally at Logical Position and the reason they came about largely is because of all the demands of our clients trying to figure out how to get all of the use out of remarking that they could. They were having so many of these conversations with our clients saying, we need to be doing this, we need to be doing this and the strategists having to work with all of our teams like, "Hey, we just need a department that can do this." So we've scaled internally, we've got a whole group that handles strategy across all of our accounts and a lot of it is around remarketing. JON: That's great. RYAN: Just the things you can do that are-- again, I say it's creepy [chuckles] but really fantastic as far as the marketing person's concerned on the things you can do with these levers that Google gives you. JON: On the flip side of creepy, it could be helpful because you're reminding folks of where they were, what they were doing. In terms of conversions, we see at The Good that you only have a certain amount of time to convert someone on your site and that's a couple of minutes typically if that. If they get distracted they end up onto something else. It's often even just personally I forget what I was looking to do and then I see a remarket and I'm like, "I really needed that." Then I end up going back and completing it. It seems to me, I'm hearing, that there's a ton of data that can be collected to ensure proper remarketing, and you just listed off a ton of them. It gets real intricate pretty fast. JON: Folks usually default to thinking about remarketing only on Google, what other kind of tools do you think could be used for remarketing? I know there's other providers out there, there's other toolsets that aren't Google, display ad networks, and things of that sort. Am I right in that thinking? RYAN: You are. Google is probably one of the most well-known just because if you're spending money on ads it just becomes very easy to see there's a section for remarking on display ads in Google. Everybody tries to claim that they have the largest display network on the market. When you look at remarketing a lot of it is done on the display network with display ads. As you're reading an article on a new site or something you're going to see images that are ads all over as you're scrolling down. We've been doing that for a while, most people know about it, most sites, not all, but most sites aren't going to say no to a display network that wants to put some ads on their site. A lot of these ad buys are done behind the scenes on a secondary market that most people don't even-- it's like the matrix, most people don't even know it's there but all of these ad buys are happening in this big secondary market that's an ad desk that all these networks plug into and they all compete in real-time to whose ad's going to be where. It's crazy when you start looking under the hood of the display network world. From a remarket perspective most companies are aware of Google, not a bad place to start, it covers almost everything. There's a couple of other competitors in the display space of note that we come across most often, it's Criteo and AdRoll. Both of them have some good things and some drawbacks and they have some exclusive sites that may be Google doesn't have access to. By and large, most companies should at least start with Google because it's already there with every context that gives you an idea of how remarketing is going to work for you. AdRoll and Criteo can do arguably better ads. Google's use of the HTML5 stuff now can make pretty darn good ads if you have a good creative team but from what I've seen, you do go into buckets within Criteo and AdRoll. They say, here's the return you need, this is your bucket. Here's what we're going to do for you. Done. It goes and it just does a lot of work. You don't have a lot of extra leverage to push and pull within their platform. It's kind of a, "We do it for you", scenario and it can be good. The only thing I caution people to look at when they're at Criteo or AdRoll is generally those companies out of the box are taking full credit for a sale through remarketing for an impression. If I'm scrolling through and reading a website and I happen to see a remarketing ad from a company who I was on, I didn't click on it, I just kept scrolling and finished the article and then later that day I went and bought direct. I just typed the website in, went and bought and finished my transaction, generally, the pixel for AdRoll for Criteo will say, "Hey, Ryan went and bought and we did it. Our impression generated it and we claim 100% credit for that." Their report will generally say, and most marketing platforms take a lot of credit so you just have to understand how to look and filter that data to get a real number. Because you can see in Google Analytics the click data, "AdRoll and Criteo they had 50 clicks and this much revenue." Not hard but trying to assign a value to that impression becomes complicated and usually requires conversation. All that to say AdRoll, Criteo for the display products out there for remarketing along with Google. Yahoo in the past has done a lot through remarketing but they've shrunk down and they're not as impactful so generally, I would say for display, those three. Video remarketing generally lives on YouTube, there's not a lot of video re-marketers that compete yet with YouTube and the scope and size of them. Email remarketing has become a bigger and bigger player in the space. Most people that come to your site, you can get an ad in front of them through a display network. Regardless of what you choose, you can probably find a website that they're going to be visiting and you can get an ad on. If they have an ad blocker on you're probably not going to get that cookie, you're not going to be able to remarket to them. There's been recently over the last couple years, a couple of companies that have come up with the ability to send emails based on the pixels. They have a list of-- I think the latest I heard is somewhere around 300 emails, they have permission to email these people. These people have opted in and said, you can email me and they've been able to combine that with a pixel or a cookie saying, "Hey, they went on your website, they didn't buy. We can filter that against converters. Let's send them an email and say we'll give me 10% off if they want to buy." They email themselves on behalf of one of their partners, which would be you. It's actually been gaining some good traction and it's another opportunity to get in front of people that you couldn't get in front of before possibly or in a way that they're actually going to pay attention to. It is a little bit promo heavy so you might give a 10% off discount coupon code, but for many of these companies, they're willing to do it for free for a rev share. It's just an add on, "Hey, if we're going to get a 10x with a 10% off, we're going to get a 5x at the end of the day, that's not terrible." JON: I'm pretty sure this happened to me the other day because I was on a site, I didn't give them any information and I left. Then I got an email from them about an hour later just like, "Hey, noticed you were on our site and didn't buy, here's a discount if you want to come back." I was like, "How did they get my email?" That's pretty interesting. RYAN: If you looked at the bottom in the fine details of that email, you'll probably see that it came from a company you've never heard of on behalf of that company. JON: I see. RYAN: I think if you haven't tested it and you've got enough traffic, and enough traffic would be you've got 30,000, 40,000, 50,000 visitors a month to start generating a real number through remarketing, I would at least consider it at least testing it. That's my general rule with most marketing test and measure. If it's working do it better or more, if it's not working stop it and then maybe come back and revisit it later once you understand some of the things that may have caused it to not work well. As we live, especially as Americans in a very busy, complex society, our attention is being drawn all over the place. You and I both have kids, John, we're not sitting down in the evening doing anything without an interruption, we're not alone. Understanding that as our day - as I go between three screens and I've got phone calls and emails and SMS and text messages coming on my phone that's on the other part of my desk, I'm going to get interrupted in the process of purchasing something more than likely. Remarketing, I believe, is going to have a bigger and bigger place in the overall online marketing scheme over the next few years. We're not going to get less distracted as Americans, I don't think. Understanding the appropriate way to get in front of people in the way they want to be communicated with. Text remarketing is becoming a bigger, bigger thing, especially with millennials that want to be communicated over on their phones almost exclusively. It's fun but complex. JON: I was going to ask you SMS like Facebook or Twitter or Instagram, all those are platforms you can do remarketing on too, is it not? RYAN: You can. Social remarketing has been a big one. In a lot of companies, I suggest that that's the way they test social marketing. If you've not done ad buys through Facebook and Instagram yet, an easy way to test it and the validity and what return you can get is start by remarketing on them. Again, we'll go by my coffee cup example, if you're selling coffee cups and you're going to remarket them on Facebook, these people have been to your site, they've seen your product, they know who you are, they haven't bought yet. If you put an ad in front of them on Facebook and Instagram to try to draw them back and that ad does not work at a profitable level or rate that makes sense, the chances of going out and finding a broad swath of customers that have never heard of you before to buy at a rate that makes sense for you is much lower. If remarketing works, that tells me that there could be some potential to draw in or prospect new customers off of social channels through ads. There's always some ways you can do without ads, but at least through ads. It's a good way to test it all and see if that can make sense for your brand. JON: Okay. This has been really educational for me, I appreciate that. I'm now wondering what budget should be reserved for remarketing versus driving initial traffic? Is it maybe a percentage that someone should be setting aside of their total budget spend on traffic? What do you typically see there or recommend? I know it varies but is there a general rule of thumb? People should be at least trying a certain percentage of their overall budget towards remarketing? RYAN: It's my wonderful it depends answer again, unfortunately, but the bigger and more complex and the more research that is done to make a purchase of your product or service, the more you're probably going to spend on remarketing. You want to be staying top of mind. If you're selling $10 coffee cups, you're probably not going to have a huge portion of your budget on remarketing. There's probably going to be somewhere between 5% and 15%. Again, there's going to be outliers on that. 100% of the time, there's always going to be outliers. Step one is just start doing it if you're not doing it and then understand that you need to have frequency caps so that you're not blasting somebody and spending $20 remarketing your $10 coffee cup in one day because you won't stop being in front of them. Understand that you're going to test and measure your promotions, sometimes you're going to need promotions to get people back to the site to buy something. Sometimes you won't, it's just timely like, "You forgot that something was in your shopping cart," or, "I was looking at that red shoe." Also, when you cross apps, bring apps into the space, that's another big one. I tend to be a sneakerhead and so I buy stuff on Nike's app and the remarketing potential within that space for them is even more creepy and awesome. Because they have all the first-party data around what am I doing on their app and on their website and what type of products do they want to prospect me with, "Hey, you've never seen this shoe. You should think about it." I'm a huge fan of Jordan 4s so anytime there's a new Jordan 4 release coming up they know they need to let me know about that before. Even though I've never seen the product they are remarketing to me with a brand new product because they have that data of what I've purchased in the past, so much opportunity in the space that you probably need to be a little bit uncomfortable with your remarketing budget. I love saying that to people because they're like, "I'm going to dedicate 10% to remarketing." That's good but if you see it working don't be afraid to go to 20%. Why not? If it's there and you can put money in front of it and you're getting a return that makes sense for your brand there's no reason not to do it. JON: It's an awesome way to just attack the people who are already interested. They're obviously already interested so get your ad back in front of them because they were already on your site. That's a great way to attack that marketplace that is there for more conversions getting back to your site, for sure. What's the biggest common mistake you see around remarketing? RYAN: Oversimplification. I think we've got the data, we've got all the levers we can push and pull to get the appropriate message in front of the appropriate person at the appropriate time. Often I see just blanket remarketing as the name of their campaign in [unintelligible 00:28:59] one campaign, all visitors in there, they have no frequency cap then it's like, "We spend $1,000 a day on our general marketing and we spend $100 a day on remarketing, done," and they just let it run. They just think that it is what it is, like we randomly get a sale, we don’t… It is probably necessary to build multiple campaigns for multiple audiences and change the messaging throughout the time to K model. Day one you have one message for them when they didn't buy. When they don't buy. If they don't buy you move them to your three-day remarketing lists with a messaging change or the ad changes, you're staying fresh. If they don't buy then they move to their seven-day remarketing list. You're always moving converters off of these lists as they go down, you can store pixel on somebody's site for 540 days. We have a long term pixel list that we use for friends and family events or discounts online or when they want to run a big promotion. We can get more aggressive with those people that have been to the site in the past when they're searching for a broad non-brand term or something. Not getting complex enough is one of the biggest issues most companies are having, there's a lot more leverage you can put into your re-marketing starting just with all that data that you're tracking. Having the granular list that allow you to do some of that really cool/ creepy re-marketing to make your company more impactful in this digital marketing, is traffic generation. JON: Ryan, this has been a super educational experience for me, I really appreciate you sharing your experience on remarketing and re-engaging your audience. I know this is something that you have that whole I'm Your Channel team you mentioned at Logical Position that handle this. People wanting to get a hold of you, ask you any additional questions, we'll put into the show notes how they can email you directly. It's been an amazing experience, I look forward to our next topic coming up here next week. RYAN: Thank you so much, John, I appreciate it. Any time I can get into the weeds on helping clients get more success from all of their marketing in general, I'm in for it. Having such conversations individually, with anybody listening, I'd love to because it's just fun for me. JON: All right. Thanks, Ryan. Talk to you soon. RYAN: Thank you.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk Full show notes can be found at www.LearningLeader.com Text LEARNERS to 44222 Episode #331: Ryan Holiday - Stillness Is The Key RYAN HOLIDAY is one of the world's foremost thinkers and writers on ancient philosophy and its place in everyday life. He is a sought-after speaker, strategist, and the author of many bestselling books including The Obstacle Is the Way; Ego Is the Enemy; and The Daily Stoic. His books have been translated into over 30 languages and sold over two million copies worldwide. He lives outside Austin, Texas, with his family. His latest book is called Stillness Is The Key. Notes: Commonalities of leaders who sustain excellence = They look at the whole picture They have the ability to zoom out They have balance Driven, skilled at what they do, but they do not run unchecked.  This creates happiness. Highly disciplined Temperance - Integrated into life The word enough: Balance - "We're definitely going to be forgotten."  It's important to have the quiet time to do the work.  And you have to love doing it. Michael Jordan's hall of fame speech: "It's so misguided.  The problem with proving people wrong is eventually you do it.  And it's never enough.  Rather, you should choose to prove your own potential right.  Did I leave it all on the page?  Did I fulfill my own standards?" I choose to prove my supporters right instead of allowing detractors to take up space in my head The higher power was the logos - the path of the universe... The stoics acknowledged fate and fortune and the power these forces had over them. Marcus Lattimore (RB from South Carolina and the NFL) - He said, "The career ending injury I had was the best thing that ever happened to me." Decide how you will choose to respond.  Make the choice to make a positive difference in people's lives. The impact of father hood has had on Ryan: "You realize how powerless you are as a parent.  It's humbling and eye opening." The WHO - the power of relationships It's a team.  It requires balance.  Both players must flourish independently: "Accomplishments are not part of the identity of the relationship I have with Sam (his wife).  She doesn't give a shit how many books I sell." "I have an inner scoreboard and hold myself to those standards." The value of a daily journal - The process, the ritual, the routine is helpful. The act of the devotion.  Quiet time everyday, provides energy in the morning.  "A routine becomes a ritual over time." Journaling one line a day for five years: It's the process of warming up, talking to self, verbalizing fears Thoughtfulness - "Interrogate yourself at the end of each day." -- This is what Churchill did Hitler said, "I recognized the correctness of my views."  That's not wisdom, it's insanity.  Don't do that. Privately, Abraham Lincoln with racked with doubt. The epidemic of ego easily mistakes for confidence and strength Stillness - What we're working towards.  We need it to think clearly.  We need to rest. Must be fully in the moment Momento Mori - "Get in the moment" Speaking routine - Wear the same clothes, workout before, listen to the same music, manage energy, funnel focus, and know that the material helps people Use the "Get To Know You Document" Why joining The Learning Leader Circle is a good idea  

Earlier this year, we helped migrate one of our first clients onto Shopify Plus. As part of that re-platforming, we tried a new app called Retention Rocket that had dramatic results. That shouldn't be a surprise if you're familiar with the co-founder. Dylan Whitman started BVAccel, the largest Shopify agency. His experience as an agency owner directly led to the creation of Retention Rocket You'll hear: How insights as an agency owner led to the creation of Retention Rocket Why rising acquisition costs are the biggest threat to your business The intentional reason they're NOT in the app store Ryan Somrak Started in the eCommerce industry 10 years ago running sales for Bronto software where they grew the company from 0-50M having never raised a single penny of VC funding. Successfully sold to Netsuite for 200M in 2015, and eventually purchased by Oracle in 2016 where he helped open their 1st Santa Monica location. Now Ryan heads up sales at Retention Rocket. Tune in for more details! Special Offer from Retention Rocket Retention Rocket: Free Install & Free Trial 50% Off 1st 2 months Platform Fee Dedicated resources to install for non-Shopify Plus stores. Show Links Example store: Yvonne Estelle's Transcript Kurt: Hello and welcome back to the unofficial Shopify podcast. I'm your host Kurt Elster in a beautiful kind of gray, rainy, but I don't mind Skokie, Illinois, high top, Westfield Old Orchards professional building in. This is my version of Wayne Tower in Gotham city. Anyway, I want to hop in the time machine and tell you a story. Kurt: A good eight years ago, early in my career before I was the Shopify guide and fully committed to it, I had an office and below that office where some retail shops and there was one wonderful shop called [inaudible 00:00:37] that sold fine linens and tableware and basically expensive French home goods for your house. And it really is very pleasant store to go into and it turned out the owner had an interesting background and was a fun person to talk to and she said, you know, right now my website, I think she used to like Front Page. She's like, I wish I had something better. I said oh I cold help you out with that. Kurt: And we got them on Presta Shop. And it was way better. But you know, over time it was a big pain. And she stayed on that custom Presta Shop theme we developed for seven years until at the very beginning this year we moved her to Shopify plus and it was just phenomenal. I mean you can imagine going from like old and busted to the absolute super car of a E-commerce platform that is Shopify plus, really had a phenomenal impact on her business. First just in time savings, then second in a better user experience that resulted in a higher KPIs across the board. And then third, the sheer number of opportunities that were opened up by apps. Like in the past, her Google shopping was, she was literally like writing her own Google shopping feed, manually uploading it. Kurt: I mean, just crazy stuff. So now we get to automate that stuff, which freed up bandwidth for this single owner seven figure business to then turn around and start trying new things. And of the new things we tried was one that utterly prints money and has been a phenomenal experience that I want to tell you about, and that's retention rocket. So it was new to me, I was skeptical, but it looked cool. The more I learned about it it sounded good. So I said, okay, well let's give it a shot. We tried it, and just utter phenomenal success. So I've got with me Ryan Somrack from retention rocket and I'm going to, we're going to pick his brain and hear about retention rocket and why he believes it is absolutely crucial to your marketing, along with a brief history of the platform because it's kind of interesting. Kurt: So Ryan started in the E-com industry ten years ago running sales for Bronto. It's my understanding that Bronto is like the enterprise equivalent of Klaviyo and he while with them went from zero to 50 million and ACV having never raised a single penny of AVC funding. Yes, a man after my own heart, successfully sold to NetSuite for 200 million in 2015 eventually purchased by Oracle where he helped them open their first west coast office in Santa Monica. And now Mr. Ryan, where are you? Ryan: Hey Kurt, now we are in San Diego. Kurt: And whatcha doing in San Diego? Ryan: Yeah. So I'm running the sales team here at retention rocket. Kurt: Cool. And what the hell is retention rocket? Describe it for me? Ryan: What retention rocket does right, is essentially we are a retention platform that is going to gear conversations with folks, sending the right message at the right time to folks, but most importantly through the right channel, right? So if you look at how E-commerce continues to become more competitive as merchants are duly pressured by the increased ad cost and new online competitors, as a consequence of that, right? Teams are getting leaner, larger merchants are cutting staff and smaller upstarts or are comfortable running lean, teams leveraging technology. Essentially what we want to do, right, is build a retention platform that can drive on its own for clients. So that way, again, when they are paying these customer acquisition costs to get people on their site, we're then capturing their information, whether it's email or SMS or Facebook or push, right? And so that way what we're able to do with deliver messages to retain those customers through whatever channel it is that they prefer. Kurt: All right, so recapping, we run, presumably a lot of folks run Facebook ads. Facebook ads, as we've discussed on the show, are getting more expensive than ever. So you've got this high acquisition cost to drive someone to your website and then once they're there, obviously we want to compete, keep them there. But even if we had some extraordinary conversion rate, like 5% , which would be super high. That still means that 95 out of a hundred people don't buy, but they still, we still spent the money on the ad, right? Kurt: So we want to convert, retain, as many people as possible into customers. So in the past that's all right, we're going to follow up with some dynamic remarketing and we've got like, if we're really sophisticated, we're going to send it a multi part, so like three or four abandoned cart emails. And that would be part of like a larger piece of software. What I'm hearing is in retention rocket, the sole focus of your automation suite is cart abandonment recovery, really. And in that like just have it, that's just the pure focus and it's doing it in more than just email, to multiple channels. Ryan: Yeah. So think about it in this way. Right? So we started off, it was only natural for us to start off in the SMS space. Right? So to kind of give you a brief history of retention rocket, right? So our co founder Dylan Whitman was running one of the largest Shopify agencies in North America, BB Excel. Kurt: Well truthfully, I like, BB Excels' reputation is great. I like Dylan with a lot. I met him a few times and that was part of my interest and willingness to try retention rocket. I'm like if Dylan is behind it, I need to pay attention to it. Ryan: Yeah. And so that's kind of the initial reaction that most people get when we talk about our, when we introduced SMS right up front, a lot of people are hesitant about it because their initial response is, hey, we don't want to pester the customer through text messaging. And usually our response behind that is, is, well, whether you're sending them a text message, right, versus an email, if you're sending out a four part abandoned series email, how much non pestering are you doing versus you know, sending them out a one time text message to try to recoup that through a different channel? Ryan: But essentially going back, right, so Dylan working with BB excel, what he was able to do is work with a variety of merchants in the world, right? Surrounding E-commerce. And he kept coming across a consistent problem with these E-commerce shops specifically on Shopify, which was retention marketing was just taking too many systems, too many technologies, and it was way too complicated to execute. And for the people who were executing it, it was costing them so much money to where they were constantly having to worry about the overhead cost of it. So at the end of the day, again, marketing tools should empower marketers and technology should not essentially bog you down. And so that's kind of where we wanted to focus the core solution, is how do we make a tool that's easy to use for everyone. And also a tool that when we turn it on right, you can start seeing demonstrable revenue day one. Kurt: That's, yeah. Well, that's always a great win for customers. I love that. The common story that we hear from entrepreneurs, from merchants on the show is they have a pain or problem in their own life. They identify a problem and they go, "Hey, I could do this better. Why not me?" And it sounds like that exact same path got followed in software by Dylan, and having you, you said, you know, hey, this thing's going to be easy. It's going to be a quick, fast to use. Having used the thing, that is how it feels like it is no nonsense. It's not bloated. It's not over complicated. Coming from a software development background. I appreciate dashboards like that. All right, so we've established where it came from. Walk me through a certain, you've got to have a roster of cool clients on this thing. Give me a few. Just drop those names. Ryan: Yeah. We work with a variety of clients. So think of like Ivory Ella, Pura Vida, Kopari Beauty, Head Kandi Pro, Brooklyn. And so those are just a variety of clients that we work with. And then from a total demographic standpoint, right? We work with over a hundred clients today, I, and we're constantly growing again, being only a 13 month old company, having a hundred plus clients. You can kind of see the adoption rate that this is starting to take place. Kurt: Yeah, I was going to ask, hey, when did this start? All right, so just over a year ago? Ryan: Yeah, February. That like the first week of February of last year is when we officially kicked things off. Kurt: Oh, so I'm imagine, you're just starting, you've probably got like these are the core things we fixed and I mentioned you've got a long roadmap, run me through, or we've established what it does, it's retention, but really, you know, we're gonna stop browse abandonment, cart abandonment. Walk me through currently the tools in your toolbox that let me do that. And then some of the stuff that's on the roadmap that's going to be coming down the pipe soon? Ryan: Yeah, so currently what we do today, right from think of it, from when we launched our MBP, was an SMS abandonment feature, right? So somebody reaches your cart, right? Or they reached the checkout page. Most people are already collecting a phone field in that checkout or cart page, right? And so what we're doing is we're collecting that opt in, right, and then we're triggering out an abandoned text message that goes out to those customers. Ryan: Additionally from that, right, we're also providing different opt in widgets. So think of tools like texts to opt in. So you'll walk into a lot of stores, especially on Shopify, what you see today, these clients are starting to run pop up shops. So what we're doing right, is we're allowing those customers to do like a text in campaign. So, you know, text Kurt, right to 12345 to receive a SMS, like specific promotions. Right? Kurt: Those are like, those work well as radio ads. I always hear those on like Sirius. Ryan: Yeah. Kurt: You know, like Howard Stern and they're like text blah blah blah 2345 to get here, you know, free info. Ryan: Yup. Yup. Kurt: Okay cool. Ryan: Yeah. We also do things like form builders, right? So we created, after speaking with some of our customers when we launched them, right? One of the biggest things, or the concerns that they had were, hey, we've been in business right, for ten plus years we've collected a substantial amount of emails, but we've never done text message marketing before. How can we start to convert those people in a rapid growth type way. So what we've done right, is allow them to create a separate landing page, whether it's on their site or whether it's one that we actually can create in the platform itself to where you can now start leveraging the email subscribers that you have and push them through like your normal monthly newsletters that encourage those customers to then sign up for like, mobile VIP offers through the site. Right? Ryan: So now you've got an email that's triggering out to your normal customers, giving them the ability to now sign up for another channel where they might receive let's say one to two messages per month and that could be just exclusive only to like those mobile users. So that's one of the other tools. Ryan: We're just also about to release a push notification tool, right? So our whole goal right, is to start now rolling out a lot of these separate performance marketing channels. And then for us, right, it's going to start to determine when these customers are so because we're integrated into Shopify, we're able to track when that order is completed. And so for us, right, it's again, it's not focusing on, hey, we want SMS to be the main driver of it. It's really to understand, hey, this customer is receiving three to four messages a month across email, push, Facebook and text, right? We're now able to track when this customer is purchasing so we can determine like when they should receive which message at what time and when they should start falling off the different engagements from those channels. Kurt: Oh, so you're adding machine learning to it? Ryan: Yeah. That's going to be towards like the second half. Now that we're starting to collect all this data, right? Our longterm goal is to start collecting those algorithms on when the customer is purchasing, when they're making that purchase, what channel they're making that purchase on. Right? So let's say if I set up, you know, a five part abandoned series, that five part abandoned series might be a five part multichannel engagement, right? Between SMS, push, email and Facebook. But if I know that the customer purchased after receiving a text message, they automatically fall off the funnel of the remaining channels that are supposed to go out. And then now I know, hey, this customer purchased through a text message at a, you know, a 5% off coupon as opposed to purchasing through an abandoned email where I might have leveraged at 15% off coupon. So again, it's starting, we want to start to leverage again, how you want to start sending out those messages to the customer. Kurt: All right let's walk through a practical example here, cause my fear is that people aren't grasping how cool this is 'cause it may be hard to picture between, you know, buzzwords like sales channel. Yeah. All right. That wasn't a great example of a buzzword, but the ... Ryan: AI, AI is a great buzzword. Kurt: Yeah I did say machine learning. Okay. So let's walk through an example. I'm, we'll go with you Yvonne Stills, since you started with that one, I'm on Yvonne Stills dot com ,I find like, oh, these are the place mats for me. I add these to my cart. I start to check out, the doorbell rings, I moved on. What happens? How are you going to fix this for me? Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. So from there, right on the backend, we've set up based on, again, working with Yvonne and understanding what she doing from an abandoned email standpoint because it's safe to say, right, most people are sending some type of abandoned email today. Right? Kurt: Lord I hope so. Ryan: Right. Yeah. And if you're not ... Kurt: Get to work. Ryan: Yeah, right. Yeah. You're behind the game already. So essentially what we did right, is we sat down with Yvonne to understand when those emails are going out from a time perspective, we know from our end, right, that went an abandoned text message is sent out. 97% of the time that message is opened within the first three minutes of receiving that text. So again, you got to think about when a customer is abandoning, they're really essentially abandoning for a couple of reasons. One, there's customers out there that are really just looking for a discount. The other ones, there is something that could come up where they might actually have a question of they abandoned, does the short coming a different color does the shirt, do the shoes coming in different size. Right. My kid threw up in the kitchen sink, right? So now I've got to attack that. Ryan: So essentially what we're able to do then, right, is trigger out that automated text message to go out after a unique set of timing that the customer chooses. Right. Some of them send a text message out within the first 30 minutes of someone abandoning. Some people send it out after two hours of when someone abandons. So for us it's understanding when they're sending an email. So that way we can determine when we should send out a text. So now let's say I've got an abandoned text that goes out after 30 minutes, right? I follow that up after let's say four hours of sending an abandoned email and then let's say 24 hours from then, right? I want the last notification to be through, let's say their Facebook messenger account if we've collected that opt in. Ryan: So now I've got three different channels that I'm now following up with the customer to say, to remind them the purchase. So let's say they then received that text message, they open that text, right? They click on the link that's provided there and then they make that purchase. As soon as that purchase is made, right? It's an notifying Shopify on the back end that that order has been completed. So what happens is, is they fall off any abandoned email program that was set up and they would fall off any Facebook notification that's scheduled to be pushed out. Kurt: Oh dude, sweet. It's painless and seamless. All right. So for my experience with Yvonne was like literally she was like, yeah, let's set it up. And then you guys set a meeting, and then like by that afternoon it was up and running and going. Is that, did she get special treatment because this is, this is one of Kurt's clients? Or is this just because it's this easy? Ryan: Yeah, no. So it really is that easy, right? So if you, if you look at it, right, the new breed of advanced and fast growing merchants, they just want, they just want software that works, right? They don't want to have to think about it too much. They want it to produce revenue in a way where you aren't bombarding individuals X number of times. And they also want to be able to turn it on. Right? And then kind of let it go from there. Ryan: So essentially during all of our on boards, that's when we, we sit down with the customer, right, to understand like, hey, what are the different channels that they're already working in today? And then the strategies behind that and then we introduce, right, what are the strategies that we see from a multichannel perspective work for our clients. We set up their campaigns, we configure the best practices behind that and then from there moving forward, right as soon as we turn it on. Right. They've got dedicated teams behind them to help assist in any way because at the end of the day, right, it is software. It's a certain channel that most people have not gotten into. So they need that hand holding experience, which is where we typically win most of the time. Kurt: All right, so devil's advocate question here is this thing lets you some retention messages through text, number one, and it's actually we should, it wasn't noted, you know when I tested it, it's MMS. So like I got a text message with the product photo in it. It was really cool. You're in push notifications, there's Facebook messenger, there are existing solutions that do all of those things individually. Devil's advocate question, like what's the difference or the advantage here? Ryan: Yeah, no, that's a great question. Right? So I think the biggest thing that we're going to be focusing on is that these tools that we're going to collectively put into the platform, right, are not going to be things where it takes an entire team to run those technologies, right? So I think that's primarily like the first and biggest thing is that, so ease of use is really our biggest focus. I think the next thing that is going to be the biggest game changer is that we're going to be able to start collecting all of the data and from a predictive intelligence standpoint, right? Predict from an automation way of like, Hey, we noticed that customer A converts 10X higher, throw an email at a 10% off coupon, push them down this flow. But we know customer B converged 20X higher through an SMS and no coupon at all. Right? Ryan: So maybe we want to save that coupon, right? For someone that we know purchases more through, let's say email, we're going to now push customer B through like the text message funnel. So again, it's starting to understand like, where the customers are purchasing and how often they're purchasing. So then that way you can start leveraging. Another thing that we're looking at right now is, is think of like post mail, right? So companies that we know have purchased, like maybe they purchased one time and they haven't purchased within the last six months, right? Send them actual postcard, a with an offer tied to that, right? Kurt: Does it do that? Can I do that now? No? Ryan: No. It doesn't do that now, but that's exactly what we're working on. Right? So ... Kurt: That's be cool. Ryan: It's not leveraging just one channel to try to steal an attribution from another channel. We could care less about what, you know, what channel makes the sale. Right? We literally just want to understand from a customer viewpoint, right, which channel is communicating to that person and which channel they're responding the most with. So instead of say, hey, I want to have an email platform, right? And then I want to have a Facebook message platform that's going to try to take the acquisition away from my email, right, now you've got two conflicting platforms trying to steal the attribution. For us it's more about understanding what these customers, or where in the funnel they're making these purchases from first and foremost. Kurt: Yeah, it's an important distinction that I had not picked up on, that is a big advantage is you've got better attribution as opposed to like last, touch attribution that a lot of these platforms use, so you have like multiple apps all taking credit for the same thing. It's silly. Ryan: And the hard part of balancing that is right is when we start chatting, like when we go that deep with customers, a lot of the times we're having those conversations with customers that have never done SMS before, So now like you really have to kind of dial it all the way back and and look at first and foremost and say, okay, what are the retention strategies that you're doing today? Most people that we talk to are like, our retention strategy isn't that strong. We're really focused on the customer acquisition side, which we can completely understand and relate with, especially as technologies are changing and the rapid pace that E-commerce is going through. That's a valid point. But people, I think in the next, you know, in the next twelve to 24 months, you're going to see a dramatic change and people trying to focus on how do they grow the LTV of a customer and then how do they grow the AOV of a customer. And that's where I think retention is going to like take over by storm, right? Ryan: It's because now you've spent all this money to get somebody to your page, so now it's a matter of like how do you get that person to then not only convert one time on that page, but to keep that customer for let's say 12 months, 18 months, 24 months, and to take them from $60 in revenue, right to $120 in revenue over the course of that 12 months. Kurt: It's absolutely a safe bet, as acquisition costs keep getting higher, eventually currently profitable E-commerce businesses won't be sustainable anymore unless they have that shifted focus to, okay, let's focus on retention and we're going to, you're going to see that represented in a few key performance indicators where, all right, what's our lifetime value? What's our average order value? What's our repeat customer rate? And I think you're absolutely right. Not like, if you're thinking, oh, that's a hot take, it's really not. It's inevitable. Ryan: It really is. And again, it's not to focus on one channel over the other, like email, like you hear these things, that email is dying, right? Or email is going away, right? That's just 100% false. What's happening, right, is that there's just been so many email providers, right, that the space in general is just a bit saturated and email is so cheap, right? That people can send, you know, five, six messages a week to the same customer. Right. And it's relatively inexpensive, which is why I think email is going to continue to be around. Ryan: Our position, right, is you need to find, you need to find a real like, almost like painting a picture, right? You need to find a way to where you're not just focused on one specific outlet to start responding to that customer and that's all part of like what we're even learning as a company. Right? Do we know if a back in stock reminder is better notified through push notifications than email or text? Do we, you know, do we notice that hey, a new product launch or, or let's say you know, basically hey an update to some new products that we're rolling out. Like should that be going through an email as opposed to anything else? Do we think a buy one get one free sale is more geared towards SMS then email or push? These are all things that like we're starting to at, and which is I think going to be the biggest proponent of like how customers start to trigger out their marketing messages. Kurt: No, absolutely. Okay. Going backwards a little bit. What is the, if we've got all of these channels unified in one app and we don't have to deal with a bunch of separate apps and now we're collecting this data. Okay. Then it stands to reason. You may have a cool dashboard, but it's also, it's a 13 month old app so, I don't know if it isn't there yet. Talk to me about the reporting and what that dashboard it looks like a little bit? Ryan: Yeah. So right now we're able to look at total messages sent right from a channel perspective. So if you sign up and you use like our Facebook tool, if you sign up for obviously SMS and push, right? We'll the able to tell you how many messages are going out through those various channels. We'll be able to report on how many people have opted in through those various channels. Then we can take a look at a sales attribution's as well as revenue generated. Right? So what we're going to be doing moving forward is we're actually going to dive in a little bit deeper from a reporting standpoint. So from like a customer level, right? You can actually look at the customers who have opted in. You can see things like their their last purchase. You can see things like the last item that they abandoned. Ryan: You can see things like total orders that they have on your site. You can see the average order value that they have on your site and we're actually putting them into predefined segments. So then that way when people start to send like outbound promotionals through text or through push or through Facebook, right? You're now able to maybe not send the same message to everyone. You can now start to dissect, hey, I want this message with free shipping to go to customers that we know have purchased more than twice. We want the customers who have purchased less than twice, right to receive, maybe like 5% off or something like that. Ryan: So from there, right, we're also going to be tracking things like opens, clicks, conversions, and then we're also going to be, from a diagraph standpoint, being able to show you exactly where customers are opting in. So, for example, right, if we know that we've got 30 customers that sign up for the text to join campaign versus maybe 15 people who have signed up by abandoning a product versus 10 people who have signed up after completing a purchase, right? You obviously want to know where some of these folks are are signing up. So then that way you can also determine like, which message should be going out to those folks as well. Kurt: So dope, dude, so sick. Ryan: Yeah, it's exciting. So we're super stoked, you know, like at the same time we've got, you know, we've got a two year roadmap, that like we're looking ahead on which is, you look at that and you're like, shit, like that's a long roadmap. But you think of like where E-commerce is going to be, you know, two years from now. I mean just over the last 12 months, like it's changed so radically, just with the changes that are happening within Facebook itself, right? Like, and the customer acquisition costs between now and 12 months ago. There's just always a constant radical shift. So for us, right, it's the challenge for us is, is staying on focus to the roadmap that we have in hand and making sure that we develop a product that again, is easy to use for the customer. And then first and foremost drives them revenue the moment that they turn it on. Kurt: So cool. Yeah. Well that was what amazed, me was how rapidly we were able to get the thing going and making sales. But one objection possible, objection here some of the brands you rattle off, I know her on Shopify plus Yvonne Styles is on Shopify plus. Do you have to be on Shopify plus for this thing to work? Ryan: Yeah, great question. No, you don't have to be on Shopify plus a to use the APP. So right now in its current state, right, we work with Shopify plus and people who are on Shopify, you know, either regular, or if they're on Shopify advanced and Shopify itself is just such an easy platform to work with. It's also a reason that we wanted to start there before venturing out. Kurt: That makes sense, on the topic I noticed like all right, another devil's advocate question. This thing's not in the Shopify APP store and I noticed like there's some big popular apps that aren't in the APP store. What's the deal with that? Ryan: Yeah. So in our current state, right, we're really focused on building, with how young we are still in our current state, we're focused on building one to one relationships with our customers and solving their problems. I think over time, right, as our product eve continues to evolve, you'll see retention rocket in the app store. So we're definitely looking at something like that. We just want to make sure that from a timing perspective, that we're able to deliver right, what the customers are looking for. Kurt: That ambulance you order just arrived. Okay. Nope, that makes sense. The way I'm hearing that as if it was in the APP store, anyone could just click install retention rocket. It's much harder to scale that experience, versus right now it's easier for you to work one on one and have that very high touch onboarding by having it just, okay, you sign up for it on the retention rocket website. Ryan: Yeah, because here's a perfect example of it, right? We get someone who's never done text messaging before, right? They download the retention rocket app in the APP store having never done anything with text messaging before. Like, their question is going to be, you know, what's the best way to op customers, via SMS, what's the best practices on sending SMS, right? Do I send once a week? Do I send twice a day, right? Do I send once a month? So these are all questions that for each customer, they're all going to be different, right? It depends on are, you know, are you a Pura Vida, right? Versus you know, a TAF clothing. Like are you selling $30 items right, where you don't care what the discount is a or are you selling, you know, $400 pairs of shoes that you're not discounting at all? Ryan: So for us, right? It's really a matter, the tool we know will be effective, right, when done the right way. And that's why we want to sit down with those customers and really understand like what they're doing today and how we can incorporate retention rocket to take them to the next level. Kurt: Cool. So what's, what's the typical ROI or results of using retention rocket? Ryan: Yeah, that's a good question. Right? Kurt: 'Cause it says you've got so far, you've got a 20 million that you've revenue increase for retention rocket customers. I see that on your website. Ryan: Yeah. I mean our average, I would say for people who do, from an abandoned cart standpoint, right? I'm just from a recovery standpoint and we've got customers that average anywhere from 300 to a thousand bucks a day, even more, right? Like I don't want to single out the people that we see doing like 4K a day. And I know that's a big average, but it also determines, right, again, like the amount of traffic that they're driving on their site, right? And the actual, the cart value of when someone abandons, right? Ryan: So I'd say typically, on average you can see about 300 to a thousand bucks per day in revenue. The conversion rates that we're seeing a range anywhere from 19 all the way up to 38% right? We've got a reach a fashion retailer down in Auburn that when we turn it on and we ran a 30 day performance forum, they drove over 40K and sales. They had a 46% open rate and a 38% conversion rate. Kurt: That's crazy. That's nuts. Ryan: Yeah. You think about it, right? If you, if you're doing an abandoned cart emails exceptionally well, you're seeing anywhere from let's say like a 12 to 15% conversion rate. Right? That could be fair. So imagine, right? If you increase that even another 9% or 10% what's that doing to the bottom line of the business, and for some of these folks, right? Who are just starting, you know, on a Shopify, an extra 300 bucks a day in revenue is a really big impact for them. So that's kind of some of the things we've seen from an outbound standpoint, people who were doing, I think you'll start to see more and more of this as people start to engage with SMS more, right? Ryan: The average ROI that we see is anywhere from a nine to 10X on those out bounds. Kurt: Alright, you've already sold me on it, stop selling, I want it. How much is it going to cost me? Ryan: Yeah. Right. So we do it based on different tiers, right? So it's based on the amount of orders that they do per day. So it could be anywhere from 99 bucks a month all the way up to 1000 bucks a month. And then from an outbound standpoint, right, they just pay a per message costs on those out bounds. So if they send a regular text message, or like a regular hundred 60 character SMS, you're looking at a penny per message. If they send an MMS like you were referring to earlier where they send something like a picture in there or a Gif, right, you can even include a two minute video inside those tax. You're looking at two cents per message. Kurt: That's cheap. Is there a set up fee for it? Ryan: Yeah, so typically there's a setup fee. So what we're going to do for anyone who wants to try it out, right from, from viewing on the podcast is we're going to do a free install for them as well as ... Kurt: Alright they're gonna shake you down. All right. We'll do a free install. What else do they get, any more? Keep it coming. Ryan: A free install. We're going to do a free trial for them. Kurt: How long is the free trial? Ryan: Yeah, the free trial will last up to 30 days. Kurt: Okay. Free install ,free trial. Gimme more. I need more? Ryan: Yup. Yup. You're going ... Kurt: Let's turn those pockets inside out. Ryan: So if they want to sign on right after after the trial, right. We're going to do 50% off their first two months of the platform fee. Kurt: Oh yeah. Okay. All right. That's you've been properly shaken down so we get free install free trial, 50% off for the first 60 days. Did I miss anything? Is that everything? I mean this is pretty good. All right, where do I go to get started? Ryan: So you're going to, there should be a link that's provided to the podcast, right? Kurt: In the show notes, all right. Exactly. Yeah, so in the show notes that they sign up through that link, it will then generate back to us to give them that special promotion. All right, listener note. If you're on you're on your phone, tap or swipe up on the episode art and it will open up the show notes and you'll find I will stick that in there. Like big heading, special offer from retention rocket. We turned Ryan's pockets inside out and then that will have the link, like a special shortened link that will take you to the page to get the offer. Or if it doesn't, I'm sure you could just, when you're doing the onboarding doc, I heard about you for Kurt, give me those free 60 days nerd and they should help you out there. Don't call him a nerd though, I guess Ryan: Say whatever they want when they sign up. Kurt: Cool. All right, well here I got one. An odd ball question for you. What apps have really good synergy with retention rocket? Like if I really want to make sure that I'm getting the most out of retention rocket, is there anything I should already be doing that would make me a good candidate for it? Ryan: Yeah, right. So I'd say the, the platforms right? That we're working right now on to build some pretty cool use cases. So [inaudible 00:34:56] won, right? Clavio from like an email perspective, smile.io from a rewards. Kurt: Love smile. Ryan: Yeah. Right. So we're working on some really good use cases with them on how they can incorporate SMS to their client base. Right. And then we're also working, we're going to be working pretty closely with recharge from a subscription standpoint, which I think will be, will throw out some really good use cases on people who obviously are abandoning subscriptions or things like auto refill reminders. So stuff like that is going to be down, actually not, pretty far away. So we'll be rolling those out pretty soon. So I think like people that are using those technologies seem to play really well with retention rocket. Kurt: Super Cool. Wow. All right. I got to go sign up. I gotta go sign my wife up for retention rocket. Thank you Ryan. This has been fantastic. I'm inspired. I got to go set this thing up. Ryan: Yeah, we appreciate it, man. So thanks for the help.

Ryan Daniel Moran was a preacher-in-training turned entrepreneur. He moved to Austin with little to nothing to his him name, and launched Amazon businesses that he eventually sold for over 8 figures. Ryan did us all a solid – really – by documenting and sharing his journey. The Freedom Fast Lane Podcast helps entrepreneurs at every stage of their business, from startup to exit. In this interview, Ryan shares his top three “mistakes”, or as discussed, things he wishes he did differently as he looks back. He openly shares his story and journey, in the hopes that other entrepreneurs do things to maximize the value of their business (and life). Through Ryan's conference, Capitalism.com, he helps bring like minded entrepreneurs and experts in the ecommerce space together to build brands and businesses that last. While he may be a preacher-school-dropout, Ryan still has a way of delivering the goods when it comes to advocating doing the right thing…so good things follow. Episode Highlights: [1:25] Who is Ryan Daniel Moran? [4:38] Is it better to buy or build? [6:43] Ryan thinks we're in a “seller's market” [8:05] What are Ryan's “mistakes” and what would he do differently. [11:30] Does it matter if you like your buyer? Does likability matter? [13:52] The likable buyer story…who won out over an all cash buyer. [15:12] Mistake # 1 – playing the short term. [17:25] Mistake #2 – telling people what to do and diminishing their talent. [18:51] Ryan shares his staffing team numbers. Inhouse and remote. [20:06] Mistake #3 – Ryan wishes he spent more money on advertising, customer acquisition, and brand building. [22:51] Why is a 100% Amazon business worth less than a Shopify store? [24:00] What channels would Ryan expand to – beyond Amazon.com [25:30] The first “nut you have to crack” [27:02] Ryan disagrees with Joe! [30:40] Brands last, product businesses don't. [31:06] Should you be thinking about a possible exit at all times? [33:05] What gives Ryan the “goosies”. Ok…he didn't say goosies, that was JLo. [33:58] Know what you will do with your money before you sell! [36:10] Should you plan your next brand before you sell, or stay focused? [39:29] How do you get more Ryan Daniel Moran Transcription: Mark: So if I could go back in time I would do a number of things different than I did in my entrepreneurial past especially before I sold my first company. And I have told you the story before that when I sold my first company I sold it for $165,000 only to find out that a year later the same person who bought the company got an offer for 350,000 without changing anything about the business at all. So … and there's a lot of regrets I have by not going back in time obviously I think anybody would like to have that ability. Joe: I'm glad it's that instead of saying you're bringing me on as a business partner. Mark: Well, you're here so I can't … I might not say that to your face. Only when you're on vacation and I have somebody else filling in as guest host. Joe: Well, Jason doesn't listen to the podcast, let's talk about him. Mark: Right. Exactly. Joe: Conversation … no regrets there. Yes and Daniel Ryan Moran was our guest and he talked about some of the regrets or as we called the mistakes because that's how he learns in life as many of us do by making mistakes and in trying not to make them over again. Fascinating … fascinating yes they're our podcast today Mark. I don't know if you recall … if you were there for his presentation at Smart Record over the last summer in Austin but he got up on stage and he spoke for 60 minutes with no script, no PowerPoint presentation and everybody was captivated. And the information that he has in it … volume of entrepreneurs that he works with and the velocities, and the approach, and everything about the way he does business and the way he literally … I mean not literally, preaches business. Okay, he's a … he was going to be a preacher so I want to say preacher school dropout. He chose to be an entrepreneur instead but the way that he talks about things is spot on with the way that we see the most successful entrepreneurs run their businesses. They focus on a number of different things and they implement those and maybe someday if they choose to exit they're in a great position to do so. Ryan talks about all of that including his own two exits that combined totaled over eight figures. Mark: Daniel Ryan Moran, same Moran that comes from Freedom Fast Lane right? Joe: Freedom Fast Lane Podcast where he talks about his story. You know five years ago he had a car and he drove to Austin, Texas and he decided he was going to launch an Amazon business and record his journey. And his journey is not over yet. It's on a new adventure, a different larger adventure but his journey kind of came to a new chapter after selling the last Amazon business that he had. But he talks about it all the way through on the Freedom Fast Lane Podcast. He got tired of seeing people do things the wrong way and learned ways to cheat at conferences and started to do his own conferences through capitalism.com and bringing good like-minded people together that build strong foundation long term value businesses and he talked about all of that today. Mark: Fantastic I can't wait to hear it. Let's go to it. Joe: Hey, folks, it's Joe Valley from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got somebody that a lot of you might know already. His name is Ryan Daniel Moran. Ryan, welcome to the show. Ryan: Joe thanks about having me in, let's make some magic. Joe: Listen I was having a barbecue last night we had some friends over and this is an absolute true story and one of them is an entrepreneur wannabe. She's in the corporate world and she bought some Amazon products and she tried something and it didn't work but she's going to go at it again someday and she's grilling me … she always asked me how things are with Quiet Light Brokerage and she starts asking about the podcast. I said yeah we're doing all right and hey have you ever talked to Ryan Daniel Moran just like that and here you are today we're talking to you. You're kind of a little celebrity I should say … little, you're kind of a celebrity; a rock star maybe for this … look it was a 50 year old woman. She's rather attractive and she knows who you are. Ryan: Well you know it's like my ideal market is attractive 50 year old women. We all know that that's the market I'm after right now. So tell her to give me a … maybe call me maybe. Joe: She loves listening and the fact that you're first and foremost helping people that's what she loves about it. She says someday she's going to get back to it but she loves listening and she's going to take that leap at some point in the future so good for you. And listen as I said prior to the intro we don't do fancy intros. So if you would … I know it's hard to talk about yourself but give folks a little bit of background about yourself; who you are, where you came from, and what you're all about. Ryan: Yeah. I invest in and I start physical products brands. And the way that I got to that point was actually as a pastoral student back in 2006. I built my first website and started my first business in between high school and college on my shared dial-up computer in my living room and hand coded websites using raw HTML in a software program called Dreamweaver. If you are old enough to remember Dreamweaver and you know it well. So what's funny is we hear a lot of people who are talking about building and … or selling businesses thinking about the good old or either like all the opportunity is gone now or the good old days have these … man, I was hand coding websites in Dreamweaver on a dial up computer. Do you realize how much more opportunity we have now being able to build websites on platforms and sell products on Amazon? So the opportunities are way way bigger now but I was just trying to find a way to supplement my … what I expected to be $30,000 a year salary as a pastor. Now fast forward a few years I did not finish the pastoral route for reasons that would be probably best left on a second podcast that you have Joe that's going to be called quiet skepticism. Joe: Yeah, some kind of … something where we're helping people, we're guiding them off that path right. Ryan: Exactly; quiet go to the light we'll call it. And I did not finish that route and I became a full time entrepreneur. So I was in really involved in the internet marketing space for many years until I really decided or realized I hated that crowd. I didn't like hanging out with those people. So I was like what a conference where those people hung out and I took the skill set that I had from Search Engine Optimization from Pay-Per-Click Marketing from Email Copyrighting and I applied it to physical products brands. And I've had a couple of different exits in the physical products world and now I'm an investor in physical products businesses because it's what I know. It's who I can help the most. And I think it's one of the biggest upside is in the market right now whether you are selling or building a business or buying a business, I think there's a tremendous amount of white space with the transition from big brands into more what I call micro brands mostly Internet based that's where I see the biggest opportunities right now. So that's a … I've had a couple of exits and the total over billed were eight figures in cash exchange. I still own a minority stake in a few of those businesses and have a portfolio business but my primary focus is investing in physical products brands and I have a media company for entrepreneurs at capitalism.com. Joe: Okay, so when it comes to investing people look at buy versus build. In fact, we had a podcast recently with our newest broker Walker Diebel who wrote about a book called Buy Versus Build and there's a really long subtitle and it was a … it quickly rocketed to the top 10 podcasts that we have. And you're talking about investing, do you think it's better to buy versus build at this point in your career or would you recommend somebody that's just starting out to scrape some dollars together and bootstrap something and start? Ryan: Yeah, it's better for me to invest but it wasn't better for me five years ago. In 2013 when I took my first sale on Amazon.com for a physical product I know business investing in physical product brands. I know businesses buying physical products brands now … back then I was buying a lot of websites. And you know what I was buying Joe? I was buying search engine friendly websites with email lists … social media followings weren't this big back then, but with audiences, followings targeting each market that sold affiliate products; because that was what I knew. Joe: That's what you knew. Ryan: I would have been a lot of people who are like looking for the system and that you are the system. You are the machine. And your machine is unique to you. So applying your machine to different opportunities is where value is created. So for me, I'm … at this point, I have more upside as an investor because I already have all the retail connections. I have the connections to sell businesses. I'm connected to other investors. That's my own skill set but the entrepreneur who I invest in is way better suited to start that company than I am and that's what capitalism is. Where I get the value that I bring in combination of the value that you bring and when we bring them together it's greater than the sum of our arts. And so for me yeah I'm … I have more value as an investor but to say like it's better I think would be a mistake. Joe: You know I think you're absolutely right. It depends upon the individual's situation without a doubt. I bought and I've sold and I've invested as well and I can say each were successful in their own way and each were very very difficult in their own ways as well. You'll learn along the way from the mistakes mostly. Ryan: If I could Joe I will add though, I mean globally I think we're in a seller's market. I think we're looking at buying versus selling if I give it a binary choice I do think we're in a seller's market right now. Joe: I have to agree with you 100%. When we have a good quality listing come … I had a conversation with someone this morning who wants to buy. And he's a referral from somebody who already bought and this guy is doing great so I want to do what he's doing. And the response is look when a great listing comes along you need to be prepared. So the more listings you look at the more you're going to know the right shit when it comes along. And you need to be able to act fast because you and a dozen other people are doing the same thing and they're going to make an offer on that business. So I agree it's a seller's market but at the same time, the multiple still don't get pushed too high. It's still the buyer to decide that. You and I as sellers, as brokers can pick whatever number we think the value of the business is but we don't make the final decision at the end it's usually the buyer. The seller's got a lot to say about it because they can say yes or no. But it's still the buyer makes the decision in terms of the value for the most part. But you just recently said you've exited a couple of different times in the last few years. What did you learn in that process if you look at the exit? Or maybe do you want to talk about the fact … the mistakes you made maybe building and what you can do to help the entrepreneurs that are listening or perhaps the exit and maybe a little bit of both. Ryan: Yeah well, there's one thing in particular that I think was on the stake if you will and it was thinking that the buyer had all of the control. By the way, this is C money right here or by a … my … he is the one who wants to make great on the Internet. Joe: For those listening and not watching somebody just walked into the background. Ryan: Yeah, so the mistake that I made was thinking that the buyer had all of the control. And if I could redo this Joe, the truth is if you built something, if you built a business you're the one with the asset. You're the one with the goods that money is chasing you, people want to buy you and so often the seller comes into market and is like the thing that I'm after is the check and I'm hoping that I get the check and that immediately puts you in the frame in which you're the after. You're the one who is not in the power position. So we share them with an offer and the seller is like thank you please oh please Mr. Money Pants I would like your money. And now they're in a position to beat you up over earnings, over … in the negotiations. So what I wish I had done was recognize the fact that I'm the one with the goods. I'm the one with the asset that people want. I'm the one courting the offers. People are making offers to me. There they want one I got not the other way around. So if you're in that position and you're willing to say no and you combine that with the turn ship that says here's what I'm looking for, that to me puts the seller in the frame of mind repair and the negotiating position. I didn't do that. I discovered that after the fact and I really could only have learned that by going through the process. I learned … I personally learned by making mistakes and paying for them later. Joe: We all do. Ryan: Yeah but that's a mistake that I wish somebody had told me before I went to market. Joe: Or is it … the buyer that you're referring to is it a strategic buyer or did you have your business officially listed and people came to you? Ryan: Yeah, we had it listed and we were acquired by an equity group. I still own a minority stake in that company and I'm in great terms with the equity group. I'm really happy with the buyer. I have become friends and obviously business partners at this point. But had I gone to the market with terms that I wanted I probably would have ended up in a more favorable financial position when it came to closing. Joe: Well, the next time you have a transaction you'll know that and you'll be able to make adjustments. Ryan: Right. Joe: Really I think like you said the check isn't the end all, it's more about … I think almost in many ways what your next adventure is going to be. I know that a lot of folks that I work with and myself included when I exited I was just … I sold too late. I was emotionally tired and I think that's the absolute wrong time to sell. You should sell … you should plan to sell, just don't wake up and decide to sell. But when you're emotionally tired you're not doing everything that you can to maximize the profits of the business and that's going to drive down the value. And you're going to get beat up at the end if you're so committed to that check that you can't negotiate a little bit more for something else and be willing to walk away from that buyer if they're if they're not a good buyer. And correct me if I'm wrong but just tell me how you think here, I always find that it makes an enormous difference if you like the person that's buying your business or the one … if you're buying a business from. It's not just about the check. It's not just about the money. It's the people you're doing business with. And I think that as a seller you can get more value if you're respected and professional and likable and the same as a buyer, if you're a buyer and you're professional and likable and complement the owner on the business that they built that you're going to get a better transaction out of it versus all the hard core raw street negotiations. What are your thoughts on that? Ryan: I don't know if you are right or wrong because I intentionally don't do business with people that I don't like. [crosstalk 00:15:45.7] Joe: So, therefore, anybody that wants to buy a business from you if you don't like them then you've got to do that to work with somebody you like. A classic- Ryan: I don't think everybody has that mentality though. I think I would even go as far as to say the majority of people are buying and selling based on numbers or like the deal and very few entrepreneurs get to find every purchase as a person. And so I think most people are approaching it by numbers and logically rather than is there a connection here. I personally … just like for the protection of my own lifestyle am willing to say no to anything that I personally don't like. And what that does is it always puts me in a strong negotiating position because if I don't like somebody I have no problem walking away. And the person who has … the person who is most willing to walk usually has the upper hand in the negotiation. Joe: I agree 100%. I find that from a buyer's perspective one of the questions I get a lot from buyers if I'm up on a panel or speaking or something like this is how do I negotiate up against an all cash buyer, somebody that's got more money than me? And the tried and true answer is really is be likeable. It's … you don't necessarily have to have more cash to get the deal done and I … the classic example is I sold a business last fall. It was about two and a $2.5M and the guy had two full price offers within the first 10 days. One was from an all cash buyer who was a little rough around the edges and was hard to work with. The other was from a really likable guy who was buying with an SBA loan and actually required 10% seller financing in that. The entrepreneur, the seller of this business had the choice; you could go for the all cash or you can go for the guy that he liked. He actually chose the full price SBA buyer and chose to carry a 10% seller note versus working with somebody that he didn't like. So in that situation, I think it makes a difference in terms of … buyers that are listening be likable. If you're working with a broker you absolutely have to be likeable because they're … as you said it's more of a seller's market. And there's a lot of buyers out there. There are buyers that are competing for that same business and when they're likeable they're going to build rapport and when you build rapport you sometimes learn about things before they hit the market as well. Ryan, talk to me about some of the mistakes you've made in your own business. Maybe two or three of the biggest mistakes that comes up at the top of your head. Looking back and learning damn I screwed that up if I ever do that again I'm going to it a different way. Ryan: Well, every time I've made a mistake it was because I was playing the short term. So when I have made short term decisions I usually make bad decisions. I like to say that the longer term that I can make decisions the wiser I am and the better decisions that I make. I said before that people forget that behind every purchase is a person … that goes for customers too and all relationships are long term relationships. Or the best relationships are long term relationships. So if you are aware that behind every transaction is a person and you play it like it's a long term relationship you end up building the better company. Sometimes in spite of a short term decision, meaning … for example as we're recording this there's a … in the Amazon there's a thing we're calling review gate where Amazon is coming in and hit them onto your businesses and removing their reviews. And it's been a bloodbath. It's been absolute bloodbath. And the people who are soaring through it are people who have been doing of the right things the right way for the longest. And the people who are being hurt the most are the people who are the most profitable over the last couple years because they played the tactic game. And like there's absolutely room for tactics inside of every business but those who have been building really solid brands and building audiences and building followings they're going to soar right through this and capture a whole heck of a lot of market share. So the mistakes that I made were always in saying what's the Band-Aid solution here rather than building for the long term. So we take a rule now in the business that we're building, we say okay here's the situation that we're in rather than talk about how we're going to fix it let's say what do we wish we had started doing 90 days ago and that would have made today a lot easier to get through? That's the decision that we need to make today which is a really hard conversation to have when you're in reaction mode. But we force ourselves to ask that question because it usually addresses whatever the root cause is that we need to fix rather than going for a Band-Aid solution. So that being mistake number one, mistake number two would be as a leader telling people what to do. There's a great book called Multipliers that really morphed my brain in terms of how I can affect [inaudible 00:20:52.9] people. And what I realize after reading that book was that I have been diminishing the talents on my teams by telling people what I wanted them to do rather than casting a vision and inviting people to build their piece of that. Now that seems kind of a nuance and maybe overly simplistic but I couldn't emphasize enough the accountability that this book brought me on how much I was diminishing the people that I was working with, And the difference in energy and growth that happened once I started correcting those issues. So as an entrepreneur, we often have like our baby that we're bringing in to our team and we're telling people how to build the baby when reality if we're working with smart people they'll probably own that area of expertise better than we can even if we can't see it. And the big distinction of that book highlights is someone who diminishes their team is usually the smartest person in the room but a real leader makes the rest of the team like they're the smartest person in the room. And that was a huge shift in my overall happiness and with the growth of my companies and it's something that I wished that I had done before I was building companies to sell them. Joe: What kind of staffing do you have just out of curiosity? Ryan: Well, the company that I just exited was a team of four. The portfolio of companies … of brands that I have is a team of five. And my media company capitalism.com is a team of six. Joe: And are all of those people in-house or do you do some … or the VA's are they working remotely or they come to the office every day? Ryan: I'm only counting in-house people so that does not count freelancers. But no not everybody … we have … there's, we are a distributed team. So like I'm recording this in my office right now, one of my team members is just right here my side. But people will come in and out. Some people … like we have a team member in Canada, we have a team member in Germany, but they're all full time dedicated to [inaudible 00:22:47.0]. Joe: Good. I asked that because you know most people that are listening would probably be considered lifestyle entrepreneurs and they have to outsource staff and VA's and people working remotely. So it's good to know that even though they're not coming into your office every day this is really important [inaudible 00:23:02.3] get their short term vision don't have that long term vision so that you don't have major major stomach aches with algorithm updates we'll review gates in that situation and then over managing of the staff you know let them be their experts; anything else that comes to mind? Ryan: As far as big mistakes that I've made … I mean we talked about the mistake in selling and as far as building the business I'll say I wished that I had spent more money on cold advertising. Like always like there's never been a business that was like ah you know I think I spent too much on advertising. I've only ever said I wish I'd spent more on advertising. Joe: Yeah, where would you have spent it because these are primarily Amazon based businesses correct? Ryan: The businesses that I personally built, yes. Joe: Right. So where would you spend that money? Ryan: So we just identified the problem because you said they were mostly Amazon based businesses so had I done things even better I would have doubled down on non-Amazon advertising. Because what … if you're an Amazon business which is like nails on a chalkboard to me because it means you're dependent on somebody else. Joe: Right. Ryan: It means that you're dependent on this channel and you've got to go double down on building a business has a different leg to the stool and that when you combine those things together magic can happen. If you've got an email list of 100,000 people that you've built from cold advertising or from buying tripwires and now you're combining that with the power of something like Amazon.com that's really really powerful. Most physical products sellers never make that [inaudible 00:24:32.6] or they get so myopic into one channel that they never spend the money and the time to go develop the advertising for another channel. I wish I had been comfortable losing my rear end on other advertising channels until I figured out those systems. It's interesting Joe, it's true that every channel you will lose for a while and then you figure out the systems and then you start to grow through it and you get profitable. The strange thing is that most people once they've figured it out and get profitable they're unwilling to go do that hard work in another area. So the way that Amazon worked in 2013, '14, and '15 was if you spend until you grab long enough you could outrank everybody else and go win but I never … I lost that hustle when it came down to Facebook Ads or influencers and people start looking for the immediate ROI. In what business is there immediate ROI? When you're building a long term brand that has sales potential … like buyers are buying the systems; they're buying profitable systems because you've already gone through that hard work of developing the systems that are profitable. But it requires you to go build them so I wish I had spent more on advertising, been more willing to lay it on the line, rolled more back into reinvestment. So I'll call that mistake number three. Joe: So for buyers and sellers that are listening, entrepreneurs that are listening it's that one legged stool, two legged stool, three legged stool. If you're 100% Amazon business it's riskier than if you also have a revenue channel from Google Ad Words and driving traffic to your Shopify store and you might be doing wholesale or B2B things of that nature but right away as I've said before if you've got a business that's just at within $100,000 in discretionary earnings that's 100% Amazon same business $100,000 in discretionary earnings but you've got 60% Amazon, 25% Shopify, I guess that would be 15% percent [inaudible 00:26:36.4] my math here, another percent of B2B that business on the other side is going to be worth 15 to 20% more. So you might be breaking even or losing a little bit of money on that land grab trying to grab more customers but if you can turn that into even the same discretionary earnings that business automatically is going to be worth 15 to 20% more because the buyers will pay more for a risk averse business that'll be around for the longer term so very very good advice. What channel would you go to first? Because there are so many options these days and building a channel off of Amazon is hard as you know. You've got to learn a whole new expertise. Where would you go first and what do most of your successful folks do? Ryan: Yeah and I'm actually going to cue on very creatively sidestepped this question because the obvious is Amazon. But where I would suggest is actually people double down on where the audience is. To me, this is the nut has to be cracked if their building a sellable company. And what that means to me it is for some people their audience hangs out following influencers. For other people that is they follow blogs or they have a blog where the audiences are already hanging out. Or some people they've got a Facebook where there's an audience. Now what most businesses, especially like a million dollar businesses, are doing is they're going channel first and trying to extract as much of it as possible. Like I'm going to go to Amazon try to rank and pull as much out of this pie as possible. Only a few people can win that game but if you switch it and you say where are my people who is the ideal buyer and where are they then the channel where you collect the order can always change. And that makes Shopify, Amazon, B2B a whole lot easier. The first nut that you have to crack isn't where the buyers hang out apart from the sales transaction and then you bring those buyers to the transaction. So the transaction to me … Amazon, easy no question. Put your product on Amazon the credit card is already there, people are already looking for it. No question, easy, done. The nut that needs to be cracked is what happens one step before that. And if there is … like if you don't have the influence, the list, the following, the traffic, the pay-per-click strategy that some way to go get those people and bring them into your ecosystem I think you are struggling from the get go and that's the primary question that I ask the entrepreneur. Joe: Yeah and I think depending upon as you say the product and what they're offering some of those different channels will make more sense. You know I had a conversation with someone this morning that has several brands and one brand has incredible numbers with email marketing and that same expertise applied to that different brand doesn't do as well. Ryan: Right. Joe: They're driving people to their Shopify store though Amazon keeps growing and out phasing everything else. So I understand identify where your customers hang out and then you've got to go find those customers. To own that list though you need to send them to your own store, not to Amazon. So are you sort of balancing between sending them to Amazon because it's all there or? Ryan: No, I just disagree. So I think that the loyalty to the brand is the customer experience. And you give the customer the ability to give you money wherever they are most comfortable making the purchase. I heard Brian Lee say where it's … Brian Lee is the founder of the Honest Company, the billion dollar brand with Jessica Alba, and I heard him say once that he considers it a win when the product is in the customer's home. That's when you've wo, not collecting it online e-commerce site, not getting into retail. It's when the product is in the customer's home. However, they get it and you want to release as little friction as possible getting the product into the customer's home. You will own the customer experience when you have their data. You have the ability to communicate a message in front of them. So if you've got the email list and you send them over to Amazon, Amazon rewards that and your conversion rate is probably going to be higher sending them to Amazon that sending them to your Shopify store. So there's a balance [inaudible 00:31:12.7] I know that I can get a higher immediate customer value sending them to my own web site because I can put them through upsells and cross sells to get their immediate data versus sending them to Amazon where I am going to have to work to get their data. I don't have any upsell experience. They might see a negative review. And so the entrepreneur is going to have to play the game of where the numbers make the most sense over the long term. But I think that the actual customer experience happens in when you communicate with them. And that's in the email message, that's in the outside of just a transaction, not just where their credit card is being added but words being communicated. Joe: Okay, I get and I'm just going to repeat it for those that are … well not smarter than me; let's put it that way. So it's capturing the customer information up front, building that relationship with them, and then simply send them to the place that they can buy the product and experience the brand with the least amount of friction and get it in their home. Ryan: Nailed it. Joe: Okay. Ryan: That's my opinion. Joe: And it all goes back I would say and it's kind of almost unspoken that the brand has to be pretty amazing so focus on that first. Build a great product, a great brand so they have a great experience and then do all that other stuff as well. Ryan: Yeah and let me address that because that often brings up the question how do I identify a brand? Like what exactly is the brand. And the brand is the way that trust is communicated to a very specific customer. Most Amazon sellers have no idea over their customers they know what their product is. If you know what you sell and not who you sell to you do not have a brand. Or you might have a brand but it's really lousy whereas if you know who the person is, it makes the product really really easy. I was just meeting with one of my team members today; we were expressing the frustration over one of our brands in our portfolio. Because when we acquired it, it sold a lot of product but it had no target market. And so we've had to do a lot of work to convert that brand into an actual brand where people are not just buying a product but they're buying something and it says about them sells. Those businesses last, product businesses don't because they're commodities. You forget about commodities and the minute that there's a better price or better customer experience their loyalty changes. But when you've got the brand people are very stingy with their trust. I want to give it to you, you have them for as long as you keep their trust. Joe: Very important message right there. Ryan, any thoughts in terms of whether someone should be building this business and always think about the future and possible exits; do you try to instill in them that they should know the value of their business in the event they wake up some day and want to move on or do you just focus on building that brand and when you're ready the time will come? Ryan: You know the real … the temptation for me is to say that no, you shouldn't be necessarily thinking about selling but I know that I'm in a different spot than everyone who's listening. So I would say if you are building this to make money, be building it to sell from day one. Because the very act of being in it for the money means that you will burn out, you will wake up and want to do something else. It's going to happen. So if that … and like let's just be real about it, if you're in it because of the payday, build it to sell because that's what you're in it for and the payday is the cherry at the end of the rainbow here. If you were in it because you've got a product you want to bring to the world then still develop the systems and processes that will keep you in the position to be in your zone of genius. And that will make you more sellable one day but I don't think it's necessary for you to know what it's worth or be making decisions based on that. So these are different goals. Now I build companies that I'm excited about and I am building them in the same way that we make something valuable because I want to be in a position where I'm just in my zone of genius. But it's a different mindset than if I'm building something because it's going to be profitable. Does that make sense Joe? Joe: Absolutely; excellent …excellent. Hey listen I know we're running out of time here I just want to say that last summer I was at the stock market conference and you got up and you spoke as did another dozen or so very very successful entrepreneurs. Each and every one of them had a PowerPoint presentation. You got up there with nothing. And you talked for an hour and the audience was captivated as was I. You have a gift thank you for sharing it. I appreciate it. Ryan: I just got goose bumps. Thank you so much, mate. I really appreciate it. Joe: How do more people get to experience that and listen to you and hear what you do share? Ryan: You know I'd love to answer that question, can I offer one more piece of advice before we go? Joe: You can offer a dozen more pieces of advice. Ryan: Wow, awesome. I'll leave it to one but if you are in this to please have a plan of what you're going to do with the money when you get it. Entrepreneurs are magicians. We remake things up here on thin air. We create value out of thin air. We create a bigger pie. We make money show up. And we also make things disappear. Joe: Isn't that true? Ryan: And if you do not have a plan of what you're going to do with the money it will slip through your fingers. I know you think you're the exception. I know you think all I have to do is invest this at 8% and I'm [inaudible 00:37:11.5]. I know you think that's how it's going to be. You will ball the money. I … right now I just heard you think “no I won't”, yes you will. So if you don't have a net for catching the money and allocating the money for your lifestyle you will be back in the grind very very quickly. I promise you, I know you don't believe me. I'm here to tell you that's the case. Have a plan for what to do with the money once you get the money. It's actually my favorite conversation to have. At some point, I'll probably have more chops [inaudible 00:37:45.3] about investing once you have a big windfall. But for now, it's like have a plan like a plan is better than no plan. And that plan would probably be best done after you sat on the money for about six months and you've gotten used to that money being in the bank account. Your second question or actually your only question was- Joe: Can I interrupt that? Ryan: Please. Joe: I definitely want to get to that but in terms of having the plan to exit, I'm always telling people look have your next adventure planned. Because entrepreneurs like you say they blow through the money, it goes through their hands like saying. I'm often saying maybe get that other opportunity started and launched long as it's not competing to get the ball rolling. So that you got some working capital maybe you're going to put it in … some of it you're not as bootstrapped although you'll be more successful probably if you are. Do you think maybe they should 100% focus on what they're doing on that brand before they sell it up until the day they sell or maybe when it gets big enough and good enough and they've done enough right they can take some of their attention and start Brand B while they're selling off Brand A? Ryan: Wow, Joe. The reason I'm saying wow is because my experience is pretty unique and that was I took about a week off and then I immediately went back to workaholism and it was the worst. It was a horrible experience. Now full disclose like at the same time I was going through separation and I'm going through a lot life changes. I threw myself into work right after the sale. I celebrated by reading books on my patio for like eight days and I was immediately back to workaholism. And I like … I roasted my body, I mean I so needed a break and I did not give myself that break. I don't know if every entrepreneur was as burnt out as I was. I was more burnt out than I [inaudible 00:39:40.5]. Joe: Most ideal [inaudible 00:39:42.8] they come to me tired, exhausted, ready to move on. Ryan: Joe, it's been over a year. I wouldn't even say I'm back now. You know I'm probably operating at 75% of capacity because I never really recovered. So should you go right back into it? I don't know. I think it depends on the level you're at and your own wiring. I make really good decisions when I'm relaxed and creative. I make terrible short term decisions when I'm stressed. And when I'm in that workaholic mode I'm a terrible entrepreneur. I wish I had just blissed out for like three months; I didn't. Joe: I don't know what the folks that listen to you every week would do if you would disappear for three months though. Ryan: Well here's the thing though Joe. I kind of did. Like my podcast sucked for like three months, three to six months and I was trying … like I'm sitting in front of mic trying to come up with things to say and I was uncreative as heck. So I sort of did disappear it was just a different way. And now I'm getting back to it and it's a completely different experience. But I actually think I did my listeners a disservice by not taking a break. And if have been just really upfront and be like guys I just got an eight figure check I am going to the beach and I will call you when I'm ready. My audience would've popped but instead, I was like operating from this place of like I'm so … oh my goodness I'm so tired and I turned off a lot of people. I know it's not the answer that you expected it's not the answer I expected to give you. Joe: No, I like it. Ryan: But I think it's true. Joe: I think sleep and rest and meditation or whatever it is to focus on is absolutely necessary. So back to that original question and you know finding out what they do with the money after they sell. How do they get more of Ryan Daniel Moran? How do they experience what that audience down at Smart Market and myself experienced where you just talked and everybody listened and took notes and all that? Ryan: Well, thanks so much, man, my media company is capitalism.com. My podcast is called Freedom Fast Lane. And I say things into a microphone and we hold events at capitalism.com that are specifically for entrepreneurs. And we're actually … we just rebooted the Freedom Fast Lane podcast. I feel as though- Joe: With fresh energy. Ryan: What's that? Joe: With fresh energy right? Ryan: Well yeah, I think you'd probably feel it from me. Five years ago I started this journey as a boy and I was … I just put everything I owned into my car, drove to Austin, Texas, started some new companies, I documented the whole experience from startup to sale. And then I kind of grew up while documenting the journey. And now there's a new journey and it's a much bigger one and so we just rebooted kind of the entire audience, the whole experience in the podcast. And my podcast is called Freedom Fast Lane. My company is capitalism.com. Joe: Okay. Well, I'll make sure those are in the show notes. I'd love to see you be more successful on this new adventure, this bigger journey. Ryan: Thank you. Joe: Let's stay in touch. I think I may see you at the capitalism conference at the end of August; let's see. At the very least we'll be to as many as we can be over the next few years. Ryan: Good to see you man, thank you so much for having me. Joe: Thanks for your time, I appreciate it. Links: Capitalism.com FreedomFastlane.com

This week we have a pair of Misfit Entrepreneurs in billion-dollar CEO Scott Morehead and former Pastor, Ryan McCarty. You may be thinking, why is Dave interviewing a CEO of a billion-dollar company and Pastor in the same show? Let me tell you. Scott and Ryan have teamed together to create an incredible organization called Culture of Good, based on the best-selling book they wrote together of the same name. It all started when they partnered together to grow Scott’s company, the Cellular Connection, or TCC, which now is the largest Verizon Authorized retailer. Scott hired Ryan to help create a Culture of good and drive results. Over 6 years, they took the company from 190 stores and $137 million in annual revenue to 630 plus stores and over $830 million in revenue using the culture of good philosophies. Today, the company is a billion-dollar company with over 1000 stores and more than 3000 employees. Scott and Ryan’s story and TCC have been featured in Forbes, INC, FOX Business, and countless other outlets. I’ve asked them to come on and share it with you and teach everyone in Misfit Nation the principles of a Culture of Good. www.CultureofGood.com TCC was started by Scott’s parents. He started working in one of the stores while in college. After college, he went to work at the head office and after a few years, he bought the business from his parents for a hefty price tag. Scott never took any money out of the business and invested it back in to grow the business exponentially. The big challenge was creating a culture that could transcend across the country as the company grew. Everything was harder – communication, motivation, running the business, etc. He realized that he was really in the people business. Scott had to find a way to create and keep the culture as the business scaled. One day, he went to a church with a pastor that had tattoos and earrings, and a mow hawk. It was an incredible experience. The pastor was Ryan delivering a sermon about you “what equaling your why.” So, Scott took Ryan to lunch to talk more about the concept – and by the end of lunch Ryan was trying to talk Scott in hiring him. *One lesson I took from the story is how important it is to be open for opportunity because it can come at any time. Ryan, has been a pastor/minister and doing global missions for almost 20 years. But, as Ryan said, he never really fit into the normal stereotype of a pastor except for he had a goal of making the world a better place. He had no idea that Scott was in his audience that day. Once he went to lunch with Scott and they started talking – he just blurted out that they should work together. It just seemed right. Scott didn’t hire Ryan right away. It took several months of conversations and even a bad accident where Scott was injured before Scott decide to move ahead. At the 14 min mark, Ryan shares a great message about how he knew he had to work with Scott. He talks about comfort zones and faith and following your gut. What is the philosophy of the Culture of Good? Ryan: We teach for profit companies how to operate their businesses with the soul of a non-profit. It aligns being purposeful with profitable and creating a culture and experience that makes work fulfilling – making it a cause that drives results in a business. Scott: From a Misfit standpoint, we’ve been told “for profit business” can’t care and “non-profit business” can’t be run well. That’s not true. The Culture of Good is where those two sectors come together and marry – essentially taking the best of each other and creating a better overall entity. You can run a for profit business that cares… Taking that from idea to reality are two different things. How do you actually implement this system? You have the 5 Promises for that – tell us about them… At the 20-min mark, Scott and Ryan go into this in great detail. It is best to listen to what they say, but below are some selected notes. Caring – What is your cause that your business needs to carry? This cannot be separated from the business intent. They must be aligned and must benevolent. Inspiring Connecting Being Authentic Drive the Business All of them have to be carried out equally. The more good you do, the more business you get and the cycle goes ‘round and ‘round. Examples of implementing each one: Caring – Everyone is involved in the cause Inspiring – Making the cause part of the mission and the everyday values of the company Connecting – Connecting the cause not just with employees, but with customers and making everyone part of doing good. Being Authentic – You are not doing this as a PR stunt. It must be real and be part of who you are as a business and be echoed throughout. Drive the Business – You must not lose sight of driving the business and its growth – you simply want a culture of genuine good to be a part of that story. What have you learned about the human spirit going through this journey together? Ryan: That it is good. Business is a human endeavor and doing work that inspires others to do good. People just need help connecting their “what with their why.” Scott: The stereotypes of millennials are wrong – they want to work hard and contribute. They want their company to be purposeful. The other thing is that millennials care more than every other generation. What other advice can you give for growing a great business? Going from a small business, a family-owned business, where you are a massive individual contributor to scale to a large business, you as the owner will need to contribute less and let others do their jobs. You have to become very good at sharing your mission, vision and strategy. Don’t be afraid to share what is on your mind – don’t keep things a secret, but also take the time to understand and make sure you are communicating it correctly and in the right ways to each audience. It is very important for entrepreneurs, early on, to start having the culture discussion and be stating the vision and mission and making it part of your life. Make sure people know where their impact is and where they work matters to the business – no matter what stage you are in. Your goal should be to lead leaders and not just manage systems and processes. iPhone or Android? Ryan – Android/Samsung Scott – You are good on either side – but whichever one you choose, go all in on the product suite. It all works together when you buy the stuff that works together.   Best Quote: “A business with purpose is a better business for everyone involved...”   Ryan and Scott's Misfit 3: 1.) Ryan: You have to find yourself first. Self-awareness is critical.  Scott: A business with purpose is a better business for everyone involved. 2.) Ryan: Give of yourself. The need is the call. Look for needs around you and meet them. Contribute. Scott: Don’t trust that the culture is going to be better – you must continue to invest in it purposefully. 3.) Ryan: Lead yourself. Whatever you are building in life, don’t forget about the legacy you will leave. Scott: If you can’t figure all of those out on your own, go to www.CultureofGood.com

What are the different aspects needed to grow a sustainable business that is transferable and valuable? Today's episode is all about planning a successful strategic exit plan when selling your business.  Whether it be online, offline, or hybrid, how you lay the foundation for your business is the key to a smooth transaction even before you start the process of selling. We are talking with Ryan Tansom, a fellow podcaster, consultant, and successful business seller all about how he turned his sale into a springboard for helping others accomplish a great exit. Episode Highlights: How a strategic exit compare to a financial exit. Figure out how to align growth strategy with exit strategy in order to get what you want out of the deal while taking into account the financials, the company culture, and the potential legacy involved. When an offer comes to the table it is important to weigh all the variables. Think about any way that the buyer can do to add to his profitability. Show them all the things the things they can do and package it up for them. Network early and often with people who align their motives with yours. Make sure you know what the buyer's business continuity goals are. From knowing their goals you can come up with ways to fill their strategic plan. Understand the industry on both sides of the transaction so that you can design how the business can look for a strategic exit. Prepare early for the sale of a business so you don't get any nasty surprises during due diligence or negotiation. Ryan lays out the framework of a strategic sale. When strategic exits work and when they don't. Transcription Mark: Joe, how are you? Joe: I'm good, feeling old and tired but pretty good how about you? Mark: You are old and tired and I'm catching up quickly. Joe: But I'm not cold it's 63 in North Carolina today and you going to get snow this weekend right? Mark: Stop it, Stop it, by the time this episode airs it's going to be a beautiful year and I will no longer be recording episodes, I'll be outside enjoying it. Joe: Yes. I mean 36. Mark: Something like that, alright when we talks to people that want to sell their business, pretty common scenario, they're looking for a strategic exit or maybe they'll say, you know, we go to the whole valuation process and then they come back and then say “I've got a couple of companies of mine that might be really good fits to acquire the business right?” Nothing about strategic. I'm sure you get the pretty often on your side. Joe: Sure. Yes. Mark: Yeah, right. So strategic, how do you actually do them? Are they worth it? Do we actually get more money from them? That is the subject of today's interview. I sat down with Ryan Tansom. Ryan has his own podcast which we talk about a little bit, but he's got a really cool story, he and his dad were in business together in a traditional offline business. They are selling copiers and had all sorts of contracts there. And they went to the process of merging that company with another one. They first try to sell the company, and found out how difficult it was, then they spent some time retooling in and really planning their exit, and after they've retooled and planned their exit they were able to do a deal in just a few weeks. So his whole thing right now is to help people plan their exit and build value on the business at the same time, but I wanted to talk to him about how do you plan an exit if you want to do a strategic sale? Does that make sense? That you actually get more money from it and what are the chances that's going to happen? This is a fascinating conversation. Joe: Good. One thing that most people don't do, and that's plan their exit. They usually just wake up one day and decide, “I'm tired I want to sell the business I'm ready to move on, So you know I've talk to Ryan a number of times and I think He's life experience, what he went through  with his business with his father trying to sell finding, it was difficult and then actually putting a plan together and deciding, when he executed that plan and he'd sold the business very quickly and I think to a strategic buyer. He learned a lot and he's sharing that with people now. So It's nice that he's got the first hand experience in the sharing with people and I think he does a really good job at it. Mark: Yeah, and so in this we're going to talk about what do you need to do to get strategic exit setup and not surprisingly, it's a lot of the same stuff you have to do  if you're going to have a financial exit or a regular market type sale. Just take a little more upfront work and we talk about the chances of it actually happening. I also talk about how that it's not always the best thing. The very first business I sold went itself to a strategic exit. We ended going to a financial buyer because they actually got more money from it so we talk little about that as well. Well we get on into it because it's a lot good mini topics in this episode. Joe: Let's do it. Mark: Ryan, hey how are you? Ryan: Good Mark, how are you doing? Mark: Thanks for joining me. It's been a while since you and I met, well I think we're just talking about this a year and a half ago or something like at Caribou Coffee here in the Twin cities. Yeah you're local to me which I like. Ryan: I know we're local yet we're sitting here on video right? Mark: We should've done the very first podcast with [inaudible 0:03:58] and where he would have be like saddled up right next to me. Alright cool, well on our podcast we like to better a guest introduce him selves, probably because we're really lazy and don't like to do the upfront research but also because guest  do a better job at introducing themselves. So could you introduce yourself a little bit to our listeners? What is your story, what's your background and why are we talking. Ryan: Yeah, I appreciate it, I'm glad to be on the show I'm usually the one doing the interviewing so this is actually a lot of fun. So Ryan Tansom, my Dad and I had a family business kind of a little bit of backdrop back in 2014 we end up selling it. He grew it from the ground up, bought a semi [inaudible 0:04:32] of copiers in the mid 90's and ended up growing a very substantial business that I think we've topped for about 20 million and a hundred employees, and I joined the firm full time in financial crisis, and it was pretty much lot of all hands on deck for the seven years I was there. It was.. We realized that company was not sellable  because there's a private equity firm that was buying out platform companies in each marketplace, and we have the opportunity of potential to be one of those, and they passed on us so we spent pretty much in next 6 years, 7 years going. Okay what do we need to do to build a sellable business that either I buy it or we sell it to someone else we didn't really know what were options so we just roll up our sleeves and did a bunch of stuff. Build out the outsource, the IT. Remarketed ourselves, did a bunch of stuff, and then in 2014 ended up selling it to a local competitor here which the sale went very well financially, but we left a lot of money in the table from a lack of tax planning and some other deal structure that things we could done creatively, and then also we found out a strategic sale like that that there's a lot of redundancies, so I ended up having to fire a lot of my good friends, and family and the employees, so since then I've been in a mission to figure out how do you align your grow strategy with your exit strategies so that you will get what you want, regardless whether it's financial or you know, anything associated with your business that you know, whether it's legacy or culture, and stuff like that. Hopefully I sent too much but it's definitely the backdrop of why I'm doing what I'm doing. Mark: Alright so there's a lot that we can unpack here and we're going to have try to pick a branch and go with it, because I think there's a lot that we can unpack here. Business that you and your dad sold, this is more of a traditional offline business right? copier sales? Ryan: Yeah, where on we have15 sales representatives that were knocking on the doors and I wish we would have done something that would have been a hybrid, and we would have probably gone that direction, had we, continue grow on the business, but I think, you know, every offline businesses, which is what we were, has the opportunity to have the hybrid online stuff that a lot of that community that you're involved and I'm involved you know. Mark: Yeah, I think a lot of the online community is moving towards this more traditional business model, at least in the E-Com Space and you've seen it all. So in the and largest as company, because they do develop our staffs and in onboarding, customer service and all that. So similar to your stuff.. So I guess, let's talk first about the fact that you left money on the table, with your.. You spent six years trying to hammer the business industry, I think there's a discussion in there on it's own, like, how do you line your crawl strategies and your business strategies with an extra strategy, but I like to know a little more about the money on the table. A lot of times when we say people leave money on the table, that's because they have maximized the sale price of their business, but were there other areas where you've guys felt that you left money on the table? Ryan: You know, I think yeah, there's a lot of different variables in this, and you know, I've got a Podcast too. I've interviewed lots of entrepreneurs that have soul and I've tried to unpack this exact topic as well and there's the “Hey there's a price so I might want to give you 2 million dollars for your business” it doesn't mean that you're getting 2 million bucks because you're paying taxes, so there's the whole deal structure whether it's asset sales or stock sales, or how the deal structured from earn outs, from an SBA loan financing, whatever it is, you know, when someone starts courting you, whatever dollar amount is thrown out, there's a lot after the fact than what actually comes in your bank account. So whether that's a tax planning, the deal structure, you know, escrow all that kind of stuff, and then there's the maximize the value of the business, so there's kind of, two different key components to it. Mark: Yeah and I think, just by way of example, within online businesses, say that your [inaudible 0:08:10] corp, and somebody wants to buy your business for 5 million dollars. Great, and they're getting an SBA loan and everything looks good, but then you get to it and at the end of your purchase agreement there's this asset allocation agreement that's to how is this been allocated tax wise, and the buyer says “Well, we want to pay, out of 5 million, we want 1 million to be your salary for the next 2 years for consulting, that's part of the purchase price” well now that comes at ordinary income tax, cruise up your whole tax, percent tax situation.. Ryan: Because you know [inaudible 0:08:41]? Mark: Yeah, how much are you getting from that point, and you're from, for buyers trying to relegate towards income, makes sense because they can learn it off in a way, because they were going towards assets, it's a long period of times that they can make that of. So, there's a lot of, like you said there's a lot more complexities there, in terms of the deal structure. So let's talk about maximizing the value, the dollar amount. Did you feel like you guys left some money on the table with that? Ryan: No, actually we did as much as we could of, because our business naturally.. I got it appearing to what is the, honestly the best kind of business because we had contracts, that were locked in with reoccurring revenue, backed by bank financing, we've bundled them with maintenance, so like, if you want to buy, manage IT services with.. You know, bundle them with servers, firewalls, maintenance, copiers. I mean you'd be bundled in finances and then, it'll be 60 months typically and it'll be in.. It's as good as a mortgage, so when you're looking at what we did and what our industry.. It wasn't something that we were like geniuses or anything, either the whole industry, I've been gone that way and I think the whole industry was built of greedy sales people. In reality it was good as mortgages because you can't cancel. So, it didn't really matter when you think about a strategic sale like that, the relationships of the sales people, the admin, all the infrastructure was redundant. Because we can literally just take a bunch of paperwork and give it to someone else. And so what you're mitigating less on the sale on like the, EBITDA, multiples, because the cash flow is not the situation, it is your Han dinging over contracts. So I don't think there's anything we could have particularly done on that aspect to maximize the sale of the business, but the industry itself taught me, what, “we got lucky, is pretty much what it came to” versus “we could always use other business, where it might be, a 50 million dollar consulting company and there's nothing to sell besides a bunch of people”. So, I realized, after the facts that we got lucky and there's a lot of other ways to maximize the value of the business from the strategic operational side of it. And then it comes down to, we sold a couple of branches prior to selling the corporate headquarters, so the first time we sold our branch we got  about half the price because we didn't have preliminary due diligence done, they didn't trust us, we couldn't get the right documents and all these different things so there was technical stuff on that aspect that we, by that time we ended up selling, we knew what questions are coming at us and why. Mark: How did that impact the price the second time around? Ryan: Second time around when we ended up settled…  I mean we closed in 2 weeks. Mark: I know how. Ryan: Very substantial sale so average closing is, either we talk in months and months and months, either because, we came there with a package and said this is exactly what we have, here's our profitability, here's where every single dime goes in and out of the business, here's why, here's our, I mean employee contracts, customer contracts, lender contracts. I mean everything was just ready, versus the first time and we knew it was like, we're bumbling idiots. Didn't have any clue what they're asking and why. Mark: Yeah, we've created a very simple paradigm at Quiet Light Brokerage that we call the 4 pillars of value and that is, look at the risk of your business, the growth opportunities, how transferable it is and the last one would be in documentation. Now I think sometimes people take that documentation that light as to.. Well, it may not really make that much of a difference on the value of the business, it's just going to make it easier, actually makes a difference in the value of the business too. Ryan: 100% yup, I got people that I know, that I've interviewed and talked to, where their value actually went up by 30% because.. But with a click of a button, especially by drop box these days and software where you can, “Hey here's everything” A – you can get more buyers at the table quickly, if you can do that instead of having threads through all these documents, but, you end up as the seller end up guiding the process more than the buyers. Because in the marketplace 90.. No, plus % the time the buyers are coming in there and they're going to find every reason to discount that companies so they can  make in return.   Mark: Right! and on top of that it's risk right? So a buyer takes a little good in business with poor documentation, and they don't know what they don't know. And so they see that as being risky and they will discount an account for that risk as well on the purchase price, and you don't have your stuff together, you can't defend against it. Alright let's talk about strategic sales. Because you guys did a strategic sales and this is something that I find a lot of questions on. First let's talk about what was the difference between a strategic and a marketplace sale in your realm. Ryan: So it's my world it's every world right? So a strategic sale realm, let's start with the financial sale. The financial sale whether it's an ecommerce business or if it's a traditional business or whatever it is, someone's looking for a cash flow. What's transferable cash flow? So if I want to buy Quiet Light, if you guys are dropping a half a million bucks to the bottom line or whatever it is, I want to.. How transferable is that? So that's where the multiple EBITDA comes from. So, if I can buy that chas flow without having any risk that it's going to decline, and you apply a multiple which is how many years, what's my rate of return that I want,  3 years, 5 years, whatever it is, and the more transferable that is the higher the multiple goes up. So, I mean someone that's looking for cash flow as a lifestyle buyer, a private equity buyer, I would say that there's also strategic financial buyers which is someone that understands MNH extremely well and knows how to do this, that's kind of like a hybrid. So they're looking for cash flow and they're applying a rate of return based on the risk of the business and the asset. Then you and this strategic sale which I think is one of the funniest ones because every business owner, every entrepreneur that I sit down in front of, or I talk to, you know your business, you're intrigued better than anybody else out there, right? So you know who you'd partner with, where they collaborations with you, all these different things, and I don't want to say the multiples even they go out the window, but it's more of how fast, in terms of, if thinking of rate of return from 3 years to 5 years, or wherever the buying might be, and the rate of return is, how fast can we pay for that? So regardless of the EBITDA, now you're saying “okay well, are there complimentary products and services? Is there a cross pollination between customer list” Is there horizontal ways, there are vertical ways you guys can expand, and if you can think about everything in the terms of the buyer, the strategic buyer and what they would do with your business, you can literally model it out for them, how fast they can pay you for your company. Mark: Yeah, so this is great. I want to talk about this because we get this question, wow goodness, probably one out of every four or five people that contact us to sell. One of the very first things that they say is “Well I have a few companies of mine that might be a good fit for us” and they're thinking it in terms of that like strategic sale, they think it's going to be much more valuable to them and there is some truth to this the webhosting industry it's a classic example, webhosting, at the very first I sold working with Quiet Light Brokerage, first started Quiet Light Brokerage was a webhosting company, and webhosting company has a tons of roles because it has a bunch of user accounts that is on our servers and it's very easy to migrate that user accounts over to another server, keep the packages the same as really just paste and transfer it **** sometime **** and a monthly contract so it's really really easy without transfer overall stuffs, so like you said all of the expense profile of those companies you do really care about that because if I me acquiring a company I already have those expense profiles. I know what to cost me to host for 500 clients, so it will become a client count. Now when you're talking about strategic sale, like I said, there is not only to redundancies which you dea'lt with, first hand, it sound like,  in your sale redundancies where you have multiple sales people doing the same thing so you a lots of people go, but there is also the synergies of my crop up with one company that is a name in an industry right? Ryan: Right! And there's [inaudible 0:16:28]for us, it was, that we didn't sell telecom. It was the one thing in outsource, the IT in office technology that we didn't do, since okay, we got, you know, 2 or 3 thousand accounts, how many people can you sell telecom to? A lot, probably. So that is not guarantee in profit that they're going to make, but it makes a deal look better, you know, then you can make some basic assumptions or something like that, and then you know, cash or order discount on suppliers. We weren't taking advantage of that. So we start to think about any way. Going to that buyer and saying, here's all of the things that you can literally get packaging up for them, and you know, I think there's some people that you and I know in Rhodium, and why see that, the reason that they start on their family to start in the retail, wedding industry, they got online… well, weddings usually don't have repeat customers, you know there are couple every now and then.   Mark: Hopefully not.   Ryan: I usually do subscription services so, what are different ways that they can expand their products and services, because they have a crazy amount of volume that come through their doors every single year. Because they got a very good foothold in Minnesota here, but so it's their robes, it's their jewelry, it's there. Other things that they can sell them and they know the volume of their customers, so you know, yeah there's the sale or the purchase price and the profit but they're more looking at do I build it or I buy it? So they know how long it's going to take the opportunity cost of how long it's going to take to build it, screwing things up, all that kind of stuff. Mark: Right, alright so let's talk about how you would.. Let's say, we have a listener out there, they own a business and they're thinking, “I've really like a strategic sale just because my business is unique enough I think there will be enough benefit for maybe 3 or 4 companies that are sort of [inaudible 0:18:03]my industry. How would they want to go about preparing their business and thinking about that exit, a potential strategic sale. Ryan: That is a good question and I think you know this whole conundrum of exit planning and grow planning.. I believe that if entrepreneurs are running the business the way that they should and working on the business not in the business, and treating their business like an actual investment, then it is like, where are all the different options that I can sell to whenever and how fast can I [inaudible 0:18:29] so it's being ready no matter what. If you are in love and addicted to a girl then you're having a blast, great! But always be ready for industries that change, Google changes their algorithm, Facebook gets kind of a little bit a heat like they are right now, always preparing yourselves so that, the first and foremost is the due diligence, your docs, and knowing, and really cleaning up your financials because, if you can answer any kind of questions that even your friend would ask, the buyer is gone just, completely slam you down. So getting your house in order, the financials, and the due diligence is one thing, but then, thinking about, “Okay so these are going to be.. These five companies are companies that i can eventually sell to” Who are they and what, why and how will your decisions in the business affect where you're going. So for example if one of the companies is running and you know, he is an Amazon merchant or something or someone is running on Shopify, don't go build out a Magento, you know, spend 300 grand in Magento if someone that you're going to sell it to is doing Shopify. I mean, that's the same thing that we did. We spent 300 grand on an ERP's because 85% of the people on our industry had it. That's why we could close in 2 weeks. Knowing how you are spending the money and why in relationship to where you're going to sell, and again, so if you think about, if your service has complimentary service to just someone else. Don't go spent a bunch of money building out something that they have. Because you are not going to get a return so you're going to spend, your immediate cash flow, but then you're not going to get the attitude because they don't seem [inaudible 0:19:58] I think it's aligning where want to go and why and then also that strategic decisions that you are doing in between there. Mark: Yeah, alright I want actually bring a really basic level here, because the thing is important point to make special more talking about strategic sales. I think people get with the financial market sale where you take a look at the profitability of the company and you have Joe blow buyer come in who really isn't related to the industry. We all know that he wants to get return on that investment after 3 or 4 years, you'd see that investment come back in so it's pretty easy to apply a multiple. Sometimes when we're talking about strategic sales people come and go crazy and they start thinking, well, look at all the upside potential that is going to come about from this and so they start lowering their valuation expectations through the roof because sometimes strategic do get really high relative valuations of this realm to the financials, that said, I'm going to make a very basic statement here and I'm sure you'd agree. Strategic still need to see an ROI, right? They still need to see a return of investment. Yeah so, what you're saying is when you're building out your company, when you're really planning that exit and working on the company, think about the ROI that the potential buyer is going to have and don't build something that's going to super expensive for them to migrate it over, right? Ryan: Right and it's like, so how we went about it is, I want to know this business, I want to know why they should buy this business more than anybody else. So like, I want to know everything about their business, I want to know exactly what their marketing strategy is, what their profitability strategy is, I want to know their strategy just as well as they do, whether you can or not. Because then you can show exactly how you fill their strategic plan, based on what they're buying. Mark: Right, so let's talk about modeling a little bit. When you're talking about strategic sale in your case with your dad in your business, [inaudible 0:21:41] done in season staff and so, when you're looking at presenting the financial picture to potential acquiring company, how did you go about that? How did you pitch it as far as the ROI? Ryan: So, I had like literally our entire.. I mean we have cash list statement and we learned a lot first time, right? So I knew every single penny that went in our business and why, so we did some serious cash flow modeling so we had our whole P&L, and then we had the forecast of what was going on to the sales and the cost of goods, our profitability, and I hacked a bunch of stuff through it, and I said okay, and I buy GL code Mark.. Mark: Wow Ryan: We did a.. Yeah, I know. Because there's the, in the financial buy, there's the add backs, right? So, a hundred grand might be 300 grand on the value, whether it's being added to the value or not. So, usually in the financial buys, you want to take that off to increase your EBITDA, so that way it's applied to the multiple. But in this system the same thing were [inaudible 0:22:41] you don't need these people, you don't need these servers, you don't need these things because you already have them. So, that is all dropping to the bottom line which will then help them calculate the ROI's so, we just looked on them and say okay, here's how much of the expenses you can take out of this, with these assumptions and then move back and forth, you said, what we actually need these people, we need these things, and then you're just negotiating back and forth but it was not more in the add backs, it's more of understanding the redundancies and the strategic value behind this. So it's a similar exercise but, you know, and now comes actually kind of the same but it's more specifically to operations. Mark: Well on the key pieces I think, needs to be understood is you need to understand the industry and the business itself. We work for the financial, forex leads site, this was several years ago. And they were getting lots of leads that they were selling and they wanted to arrange a strategic sale to a forex broker. Because they knew that they were jittering these leads and so that the equation really became okay. We know how much we're getting paid out on their [inaudible 0:23:43] basis for these leads. But as a forex broker, here's where the dollar amount for the valid leads are, and now we can start modeling our what does this look like, how much revenue is this site really making, from a forex broker's standpoint and then the other value proposition there. Ryan: Yeah it's literally of about knowing both of the businesses and the industry as well as you possibly can. So you can just design exactly how it looks. And then you backing up numbers, you know, I'm just kind of making some other things up but like, you and I have talked and I think that was when you were on my show, we're talking about the hybrid of the online versus offline and so, if someone has literally the best data ever on their drip marketing, their automation in their online marketing and knows exactly the entire cost of acquisition of one wheel, and whether it's Facebook ads or Google ads, all of what the email mark and you say “here's how much all this stuff cost,” they can go in and if you're going to [inaudible 0:24:38] and sink that up with an offline business, like there's some huge power there because you know that they're not doing that potentially. So you can, there's just so many different ways to design that I guess. That's kind of the fun part. Mark: Yeah and the nice thing about strategic is that there's really, you have the ability to blow a traditional valuation out of the water, right? That's one of the big advantages. Transitions can also be a little bit easier because they already know the industry and so you don't run saying “here's how you do this little process that you should probably know anyways” it's a little easier to transition. When I talk to people about doing strategic, so I often tell them that I don't think it's a good idea for them. And the reason I say that is mainly because they're difficult to do if you haven't been preparing. How long do you think it takes to really prepare business for a strategic? Ryan: So I think maybe I'll go back with remarkable steps which is what's the order of operations I think you should do to do this correctly, right? So kind of the assumptions to repeat is beat your foundation setup, build your financials, build healthy business from recurring revenue, the clarity of all these different things, making sure you don't have a bunch of concentration in one client, all the typical ways of de-risking your business and if you're striving to make a healthy business like that then you'll have lots of options. So at the bare minimum, you should be able to sell to a financial buyer, so then called to 3 to 5 times multiple EBITDA. So you know that, financially going okay, if it's 200 grand, I know that I'm going to be getting 600 or a million. Whenever it might be, right? So I know that's how or that's my target. But with a strategic sale, you could completely blow it out of the water, but that's kind of like hunting. It's hunting for unicorns or really specific synergies so you mention 5 people, that's fantastic but, what if they don't want it? What if they're struggling? What if they don't have the money? Don't have the ability to get banked? All those different things. Those are things that you don't know and yes you should work towards them so I think, to answer your question, I don't know but really helps with that, it's like, we knew our buyer. Like  half of our employees has hog back and forth, you know, we're in the same industry trade associations so, I actually had taught the woman I interviewed yesterday at my show, she would have spent 2-3 years building and fostering those relationships, so those people could have been at the table. She didn't do that, so this is more of a relationship building, going in Rhodium Weekend, going to the YC Events, going to [inaudible 0:27:00] all these different things where people build relationships. And then what ends up happening is, I [inaudible 0:27:06] the bar over a napkin, and then you're back in the stuff. Mark: Yeah absolutely, that's actually normal when I [inaudible 0:27:13] people that want to do strategic is, if you want to know strategic, 2 or 3 years down the road, contact the companies now and don't say “Hey I want to sell to you” just contact and do that real networking stuff and get out there. Once they've become aware of your company, and you start to learn each other's companies, then you can sort of see that conversation for down the road. Ryan: And then you get out on their radar, right? Because you're not on their radar otherwise. So, there was actually a really interesting story that I heard Mark from one of the guys I interviewed in my Podcast, where he was at a trade association, he started talking one of the base competitors and he goes “Why don't you buy me?” and that's how he started and they started, you know, BS and then it went around and then the guy has said “You know what? Let's have a [inaudible 0:28:00] every 6 months call to see how you're doing” and these people literally told him exactly what to do, so they could buy him. Mark: That's great. Ryan: That was super unique, right? His name is Norm Brodsky, he wrote Street Smarts and he was a part of the small giants book, so he's on the cover of [inaudible 0:28:16] and a lot of exposure but like, I think the concept is very unique, because if you wanted to buy my business, why don't you just keep telling me what to do, and if everything works, I mean, like I said it's kind of a shooting for the starts, but I mean, you got really nothing to lose at that point especially if you don't need to sell. Mark: Yeah alright. So you said a couple of things a while ago, I think is a good foundation I have and this is a general advise, and feel free to disagree with it if you disagree with any of the advice that I typically give people and respect them on this. With strategic, yeah you can get the out of the water valuation sometimes. But it all starts with first making their business safe, financially viable business and in someone that you can sell in a financial market. You are dealing few buyers, this is probably the biggest obstacle to a strategic sale, you might have half  a dozen companies that can potentially acquire a business and the sake people make is they went in and say “I want to sell my business” then they called ABC company and ABC company's saying “Yeah we don't have a million dollars” or “You were not in our annual budget this year” or “Acquisitions were not in our plan for this year”. Ryan: Right, I'd pause you there for a second. They may have the money, but like, everybody's busy, right? So what if they're developing their own software or doing something else, they might just not have the physical time to integrate the two companies. Mark: Right. Yeah absolutely. So you need to have that relationship in place and it has to make sense as being a natural evolution. Kind of like a marriage, right? I mean.. Ryan: Yeah, totally. I mean, you're partnering up with someone. Mark: Yeah, and last thing I would say is, take a look to see if actually does make sense. That first company that is sold, in the webhosting space, I could've sold that very easily in a strategic sale, because there was so many strategic happening, we did a financial sale because we knew we're going to get more money. So, where you can often blow the top of the valuation with this strategic, it doesn't always happen that way. Sometimes financial actually does work a little bit better. Kind of a weird, odd case. Ryan: Sorry you're.. Mark: No, go ahead please. Ryan: I think the one thing to that people really need to think about, because you might blow the valuation off the charts, but I tell you what Mark, the reason why I do what I do now is because we got the financial target that we wanted to hit, I literally had to fire 60 of my friends and family. So if your culture in your employees and the clients.. You have to understand what's important here because in a strategic sale redundancies are huge. So, how will you stomached that afterwards? Like going and calling all of our employees in, they was way at 85 or something like that at that time and they only kept [inaudible 0:30:47] I mean like, that's literally the stomached ache. Are you going to be proud and happy about what you build? Is it just a financial target that's fine and you have people dispersed across the US and there's a lot of VA's and you're not orally loyal to them or if there's people that you care about, like they are role playing that strategic sale I think is extremely important so you can calibrate against all your options. Mark: That's a really, really good point. So what do you do now? What are you doing these days? after the sale, of course. Ryan: So other than being in the Podcast just like yourself, so, we have a company called GEXP Collaborative, so, it's Growth and Exit Planning collaborative, that's what it's stands for, and it took a lot of time, over the last for years.. Exit planning I think there's some negative [inaudible 0:31:33] to it because you might not want to sell right now, but it's literally both having a good business. So we combined the two which is growth and extra planning because it's like, we're talking about what are your plans and then how do you back in to all your strategic plans, they sell where you're trying to go with you options and I found some amazing people in the industry that have different disciplines because you got legal, finance, the front insurance, deal structures, you have the business brokers, you got all these people, and they all play a roll, and how do you back into that plan? So, if you kind of think, we're almost like a building, If you start a building you start with the budget and a blueprint, because you can't build a building without either of those, so the budget is your financial targets, where you want to go and why, so is there debt, net, the amount that you need or cash [inaudible 0:32:22] and what's the blueprint. So what are the five different strategic buyers and then you got the six financial purchase, timing, role, responsibility, and you're back and do it, so you can then hire the team [inaudible 0:32:34] so the growth next to planning that we do with the collaborative team is literally building the budget and a blueprint, and then actually coordinating the team like a general contractor because no one person can do all this stuff. I've been doing it non-stop day and day of four years, and I still couldn't single hand lay out to someone. Mark: Yeah, there's a lot involved with that.. now if somebody is listening to this, one of the misconception running to all the time, with clients that come to us and say I want to sell, I'm not really ready because I did not plan ahead maybe should've talked to somebody 2 or 3 years ago. We try to get people to talk to us, the brokers, a few years in advance. For you, you're focusing again on that growth as well so even if somebody isn't ever planning to sell, it still makes sense to talk about that growth. Ryan: Because the reality is you're going to do the best of your business at some point. I mean, there's people, like I work within this, the baby boomers, well they're going to die in your business but then what you're doing is you're working on the shares and the estate planning and dispersing the shares to employees, and to kids, and do trust, so he's going to sell his company, and you know what, he loves it, great! But then there's, build a business that has value and has cash flow and you de-risks then you can literally do whatever you want whenever you want. So yeah you're right it's coming ahead of time but then also knowing the people like you and building these relationships, you can't do this at the last second, you're going to leave money on the table, you're not going to be as happy with terms and conditions and so many times Mark, and I don't know if you see this, but a lot of people that are out there, and the people that are in aggressive growth path, they're all acquiring company so the out of the blue offers happen all the time. So whether it's PE firms or funds or other strategic buyers, and how do you know what to weigh that against if you don't have a plan? So you don't even know like how much I'm going to get? What terms? I mean, you're thinking on the fly and that usually doesn't go as well..   Mark: Right! The number of time I've heard from clients, get in to this process and say, “Man, I really wish I've contacted you a year ago” I mean it happens all the time, no one ever thinks about selling their business until they actually want to sell their business and I think what's really cool about what you're doing is you're focusing again not just the exit, you're focusing on growth. Because a good growth strategy is a good exit strategy they often go hand in hand. Ryan: You're back can do it. You know, I just have a little plug for you guys too, because we do not do what you do, and I think a lot of entrepreneurs, they really think, because they understand their business so well that they can sell their business by themselves, and “Oh my gosh” it's the first time you're going to do it and why.. Like every one of those professional should pay for themselves, it should be your return of investment, what to spend, because you know it's an emotional roller coaster first of all and it's like a 24/7 fire drill while you are in the process which is what your team does, right? so I think all the people, if you have the right advisors, and that's another reason left a lot of money on the table, is you need to have the right advisers. I mean it wasn't people that do it all they want, they do transactions, they understand the market, your industry, and so having the right team is crazy important. Mark: Yeah, alright could you plug as well if anyone listen to this and enjoys the Quiet Light podcasts, and hopefully you do if you've listened this long, Ryan's Podcast talks a lot about the same stuff, you talk a lot about selling, you talked to a lot of entrepreneur's who has sold their businesses before, and you go over a lot of the same material, but with a little bit of a difference spinned to it, really, really high quality content and another one, what was name of the Podcast where can they find it? Ryan: “Life after Business” Mark: Life after Business. Awesome! So we will link to it in the show notes on our Podcast page, we'll also link over the Ryan's website, and Ryan, anything else that you want us to link or to want to draw attention to, please feel free. Ryan: We got a resources tab just like you, you're my model right? So I guess I said year and a half ago, you put me in the right direction with the presence that I wanted online, so we got white papers, and resources and Podcasts and all that kind of stuff so. Mark: Awesome, so definitely check at his site and feel free to reach out to him, if you just want to talk, he's a good guy to talk to. You know I can talk all day about this stuff and someday we probably will. Thanks for coming I really appreciate it. Ryan: Yeah, had a blast Mark, Thanks! Mark: Alright. Links and Resources: www.gexpcollaborative.com Ryan's website Life after Business Podcast Ryan's podcast link

Ryan McLeod became an indie app developer after graduating from Cal Poly San Luis Obispo in 2014 and briefly working as a web developer.   After working on a social music startup for a time that ended up disbanding, Ryan switched gears and started learning iOS. Originally a side project, this knowledge led to the creation of the popular iOS app Blackbox, a game that helps players practice creative thinking by solving puzzles without actually touching their screen.   Some Questions I Ask Ryan: What got you into indie app development? [2:58] What happened after you finished up school? [4:24] What about taking risks with app development scares you? [6:36] How did the idea for Blackbox come about and were there any parameters? [10:08] What do you think provides the biggest value when having people test out an app before releasing it? [16:22] Have you ever done a soft launch on an update? [20:39] How do you market the Blackbox app? [22:32] What is the story behind Snapchat and your successful marketing? [34:18] What tools do you use to measure the effects of Blackbox? [39:34] Is the indie developer game realm big? [49:38] What would you give as words of advice to anyone looking to bring their product to the app store? [54:39] What’s next for Blackbox? [1:00:00] How do you develop the levels for Blackbox? [1:02:23] What was the award you received? [1:04:28] Was there a large bump in users when you received this award? [1:06:20] What’s the story behind your Gravity app? [1:07:20] What advice would you give to entrepreneurs? [1:15:35] Would you recommend that entrepreneurs release products right away? [1:16:05] Are there any books, audiobooks, or content you’d recommend? [1:20:06]   Some Things You’ll Learn In This Episode: Why Ryan wouldn’t recommend getting into the music startup industry The work Ryan was doing before training in iOS Ryan’s thoughts on taking risks when there are possibilities for big rewards What aspects of app development Ryan has a particular interest in What Blackbox’s beta testing process was like What program Ryan used for beta testing to tease out flaws What Ryan wished he would have done with the soft launch during testing Why Ryan doesn’t utilize push notifications for Blackbox What the hardest part about developing levels for Blackbox is How the idea for Ryan’s Gravity app came to fruition What kinds of products Ryan personally doesn’t like Looking to get in touch with Ryan? You can find him here: Twitter: @Warpling Instagram: @Warpling

My guest this week is professional audio engineer Ryan Monette. Ryan graduated from Berklee College of Music with a degree in Music Production & Engineering. For the last 4.5 years he's been the Post-Production Audio Engineer on staff at Elevation Church, in Charlotte, NC, where he mixes their global TV show, and has many other responsibilities (boom operator, field recorder, sound designer, audio editor, etc.). You may have heard some of his work, as he sound-designed and mixed the opener video for the Circles conference for the past two years. He even had his own podcast for a short while (TheQueuecast.com). I asked Ryan to come on the show to share his journey towards becoming a professional audio engineer (a job that I've always wanted), and to get him to share some tips for anyone interested in working in audio/video professionally. Highlights, Takeaways & Quick Wins: Think long term and dream big. If you want to do anything with audio, start by getting a cheap USB microphone. Take advantage of free online courses to learn more about audio engineering. Get started with whatever you have. Your mix may sound completely different in a different environment, so listen with different headphones/speakers in different locations. Master the basics and keep going back to them. If you're mixing a podcast, make sure your levels are consistent. When mixing, always use a reference track. Show Notes Aaron: You graduated from Berklee College of Music with a degree in music production and engineering. For the last five years, you've been the post production audio engineer for Elevation Church in Charlotte, North Carolina. You have a lot of jobs there: boom operator, field recorder, sound designer, audio editor, and you mix their global TV show. Do you mix that live? Ryan: Not necessarily. We can get into that later. There's a process for that. Aaron: Some of the creative people here might have heard of some of your work. You sound designed and mixed the opening videos for the past two years of Circles Conference, which I was at. Have you been there for the past two years? Ryan: I haven't been personally, no. I have wanted to go. I love it from afar, and I want to go in person. Aaron: I wanted you to come on this show because when I first got started, I had dreams of being a professional audio engineer. I thought, “How cool would it be to work in audio and get paid for it? That'd be awesome!” I fell backwards into it by doing podcast editing as a hobby first, then for money, then I met Sean McCabe and ended up working for him full time. I edit podcasts and help out with a ton of other stuff. I asked you to come on the show to share your advice for anyone who's interested in working in audio/video professionally, and to talk about how you got there yourself. So tell me a little bit about how you got into audio. When did you first realize that this was something you wanted to do? Ryan's Journey to Becoming a Professional Audio Engineer Ryan: I love listening to your podcast, Aaron, and what I love about it is I feel like you and I have a lot of similarities in our backgrounds. You're a musician, a drummer, and I'm also a musician. I play several things. My primary instrument is bass, but along with that, I started on piano. I picked up bass, and with the bass I picked up guitar. I took some drum lessons here and there as well. I sing as well. I dabbled in a little bit of everything. I'm kind of a jack of all trades, master of none. I'm okay at a lot of things, but I'm not superb at one thing. Anyway, right around junior high or high school, I started playing the bass. I started playing in little bands here and there. When it came time for college, I had no clue what I wanted to do. All I knew was that I loved music. Aaron: Same here! Ryan: I was living in Las Vegas at the time, so I decided, well, everyone has to have that college experience, and I didn't want to go to college in the same city, so I decided that I needed that “being away from home” experience. I went to the University of Nevada, Reno. I took your basic, general classes, not knowing what I wanted to do. At this time, for my high school graduation, I had received a graduation present of a Macbook Pro. With that, of course, you get the wonderful iLife suite, including Garageband. As a musician, a whole new world was opened up to me. When I was in a band in high school, I was the gear head—I loved the PA and putting cables together. I was drawn to that. Once I had this Macbook Pro with Garageband and I had my bass and my guitar in my dorm, I was like, “I can create music!” I figured out how to work it and record myself. I bought a USB microphone, and that world was opened up. When I was there, I had a friend, and her brother went to this school where all they learned about was music. I was like, “Wait, you can do that? You can go to school for just music?” That's how I found out about Berklee School of Music. I applied, and you have to audition as well. I applied and auditioned, and the first time I tried, I actually didn't get into the music school I wanted to go to. Aaron: This sparks something in my mind. I feel like I might have read an article about Berklee or looked into it and thought, “No, they're really strict on who they accept, based on your performance.” That was intimidating to me at the time, because I never felt like I was that good of a drummer. Ryan: It was intimidating for me, too. Clearly, I wasn't up to par. Aaron: Yet you went for it. That's more than a lot of people would do. Ryan: Yeah. After I finished my first year at UNR, I moved back to Vegas and went to UNLV, the University of Nevada Las Vegas. I took all music classes, forgetting the general ed stuff you need to get a degree. I took all music classes—music theory, because I had never had actual music theory classes, so I thought I needed that. With that, there were some audio classes that I took as well. I was like, “Hey, I like this audio thing.” At the University of Nevada Las Vegas, I had my first exposure to a formal audio class, where I learned all the proper techniques. Later on that year, I applied and auditioned again for Berklee. I got accepted, and the next year, I moved to Boston and went to Berklee for about three and a half years. Then I graduated. When I went to Berklee, the only thing that drew me as a major was Music Production and Engineering. I naturally loved the gear side of things. I fell in love with recording. I was like, “This is what I want to do.” Aaron: You got to spend three and a half years there, studying and learning? Ryan: It is non-stop, 24/7, music, audio, and to be honest, I miss being in that environment so much. Aaron: That sounds fantastic. I always love setting aside time to take online classes, read books, and listen to interviews about audio. Think Long-Term Aaron: You were drawn to the audio engineering stuff, and then you graduated. Ryan: I can remember a specific time in my life, and I'm pretty sure it was my last semester at Berklee. They went by semesters instead of years. It was in one of my capstone classes. Our instructor asked us the typical, “Where do you see yourself in five years?” question. Aaron: I love that question now. I hated it when I was 22. ** Think long term and dream big** Aaron: Plan out where you want to be, because if you can envision it, then you can figure out how to get there. But you have to start by saying, “I want to do this thing someday.” For me, it was, “I want to do work from a laptop. How do I get there?” Now I'm there. So you were 22 and someone asked you, “Ryan, where do you want to be? Where do you see yourself in five years?” Ryan: At that moment, I was trying to figure that out, naturally, as you do when you're approaching the end of college. While I was at Berklee, I loved music. I loved recording music, but my absolute favorite class—they only had one of them, but it was the class I yearned for, that I wanted to take and put in all these extra hours for—was audio for visual media, audio for video. By far, that was my favorite class. The whole class, we were working toward our final project. You choose a five to seven minute clip from a well known movie, and all the audio is completely stripped. You have to recreate everything. That's all the dialogue, all the foley, all the ambient background, all the hard effects, and so on. You have to connect with a film scoring student there at Berklee, and they have to provide the score. I absolutely loved every aspect of that project and the process. When it came time to decide what I wanted to do with my life, it was between audio engineering at a recording studio, working at Disney as an Imagineer, or doing audio at a church. I have always been involved with church, playing on worship teams and whatnot, so I also saw myself doing audio for a church. Long story short, I was really privileged to dip my feet in all of those things after college. After I graduated, I moved back to Las Vegas. Eventually, I found an incredible recording studio, probably one of the top two recording studios in Las Vegas, and I landed an internship. First Audio Engineering Jobs Ryan: I say “internship” loosely, because your typical studio internship is all the stereotypical grunt work—taking out the trash, doing the coffee, and whatnot. I showed up, and they were like, “You went to Berklee? Berklee guys are cool. Here, hop in this session and help us out.” It was open to me, thrown at me, and next thing I knew, I was assisting on sessions with huge clients, I won't name drop. Aaron: You can drop a couple of names if you want. Ryan: I had a pretty fun time helping out with a session with the famous engineer Eddie Kramer, who is engineering for Carlos Santana. Aaron: Dang, man! That's awesome. Ryan: That was pretty incredible. But while I was there, I had this gut feeling inside of me saying, “This isn't it.” Aaron: It's fine, but it's not quite right? Ryan: I could see myself staying there and working my way up, but it didn't feel right. A few months after I realized that I didn't want to stay at the studio, I applied and was offered a job at Walt Disney World in Orlando, Florida. I packed my bags, moved to Orlando, and I was working as a stage technician at the Epcot park. There, they found out that I was an audio guy, so they pushed me toward the live audio side of things. I was mixing shows and bands at Epcot and what was at the time Downtown Disney, now Disney Springs, area. Same thing. Almost as soon as I got there, the same gut feeling came in. I was like, “This isn't it. I'm more of a studio engineer. I definitely don't want to do live stuff.” Although I love Disney, it just wasn't sitting right. I was only there three months before the next great opportunity came up, which is where I am right now. One of my friends told me about a job opening for this church in Charlotte, North Carolina, Elevation Church. I had actually been following them because of their podcast. At the time, I was kind of like, “I've got a job, whatever.” For some reason, I ended up on their website, looking at the job. I was reading, and I was like, “Wait a minute, they're looking for someone to do audio for video. That's what I really want to do!” On a whim, I threw out my resume. Next thing you know, I've been here going on five years. Aaron: Did you mention that you were a podcast listener when you sent in your resume? Ryan: Yeah. Aaron: The connections you can make through podcasting is really incredible. Ryan: It is. And I've been working there for 5 years now. How to Get Into Audio Engineering Aaron: I want to jump into what you do at your job at Elevation, but let's pause and do a section on what advice you would tell someone who's wanting to get started. I wrote a couple of things down here. I think it's hilarious that you got a Macbook and your first microphone was a USB microphone. Ryan: Which was the Blue Snowball, by the way. Aaron: That's the worst microphone! Ryan: I had no idea how to use it, either. If I find some of the earliest recordings I did, there are times I'm clipping to the max, square waves. Aaron: Probably bad mic technique, too. But hey; it got you started! If you want to do anything with audio, start by getting a cheap USB microphone. Any USB mics will work for getting started. I like the Blue Yeti, but it's like $100. The ATR-2100 is fine, too. You just have to get something that can record some audio and start playing with it. Start playing with Garageband. Start playing with the free programs. Learn how to enable recording on a track, how to set your input device to the microphone, how to set your output device to wherever your headphones are plugged into, whether that's your mic or your computer. It took me so long to figure that stuff out. I was like, “Why can't I hear the audio in my headphones? What is going on?” Ryan: Same here. Aaron: You have to set input and output, then you have to record enable or do the input monitoring, all that stuff. But start with the USB microphone. Take some basic classes. There are so many great online classes. If you don't have any money at all, if you're super broke like I was when I started, watch some free YouTube videos. Read a book. Ryan: If you go to Coursera.org, they're a website where you can pay to take online courses and get certifications and whatnot, but they also offer free online courses. They even offer free online courses from Berklee. I've seen a music production class there. I've taken a free online song writing class. Check out free online courses, because they can be a pool of incredible knowledge. I took a photography class on there. Coursera is a great place. They're great if you want to take free online courses. Aaron: There are places where you can learn all this stuff. You just have to invest some time. You really just have to start: Don't wait until you have $500 for an interface and $200 for some professional headphones and microphone. Whether you want to start a podcast, start recording audio for a video, or record and mix a demo for a band, start doing something. Stop spending all your time thinking about how you can't do anything because you don't have certain gear or you're not in the right place. You'll learn as you do, especially in audio. You're going to make a ton of mistakes. Ryan: That's how you learn, though! That's one of the most valuable things I've learned in life. You learn from your mistakes. Aaron: You don't really learn when everything goes well. Just Start Aaron: Any other advice you would give somebody, thinking back on how you got to where you are right now? Ryan: Honestly, you hit the nail on the head with “just start.” It's as simple and cliche as Nike, “Just do it.” There is always going to be the next latest craze, the gear, and we've all been susceptible to that. We say, “Oh, well, I could do this if I had X.” It starts with the drive and determination, wanting to do it. There's knowledge out there everywhere. You just have to dig for it. Chances are, you have at least something you can start with. Record something on your phone. Aaron: I have a friend who makes some awesome music on his iPhone. Ryan: Oh, totally. It's as simple as getting an adapter. You can plug your guitar or whatever into your phone. Aaron: Kids these days have it so easy! Ryan: You have Garageband on your phone. I remember when I was figuring this out in high school, and we actually had a four track tape recorder. That was my first start. Get started with whatever you have. Aaron: What kind of stuff do you do at the church? What's your day to day life like? Are you there every day, or is it just a couple of days a week? Ryan: Oh no, I'm definitely there every day. It has been a whirlwind for sure. In the past five years, I have probably played every audio role that there is to be played here. My main thing now is audio for broadcasts, pretty much anything that leaves the church. Our biggest output is the sermon, which goes to a lot of places. It also goes in the TV episode, which we talked about, which goes locally, nationally, and, I believe, globally as well. That's a lot of what I've done. We also create a lot of films, short films, for our worship experiences, anything you can imagine that's video and audio related. Audio post production, like we talk about. I'm constantly on video shoots using field recorders, the boom op, anything you can think of. Audio for video, I've done it. The Gear Ryan Uses Aaron: Let's talk about your gear a little bit. What kind of stuff are you using most in everyday life? I'll do a quick recap: I have the Shure Beta 87A Mic as my main podcasting microphone. It's attached to a Scarlett 18i20 USB Interface (update: I'm now using my Zoom H6 exclusively), which is plugged into a quadcore iMac that's a couple years old. Nothing super fancy, but I'm really happy with where I am. I remember wanting all this stuff back in 2011, thinking how awesome it would be to have it. I have a Zoom H6 portable recorder and a couple of SM58 microphones. I've been pairing down my gear collection because I'm planning on moving in the spring. What kind of stuff are you working with? I use Logic Pro X for editing, and then Izotope iZotope RX 5 for cleaning up background noise or fixing clipping. What about you? What's your day to day favorite gear? Ryan: We use a lot. There's a bunch of gear for field recording and then in my office, which is where I'm at right now. I'll start with my office. Right now, I'm talking into my personal mic, which is a Rode NT1A. It's very affordable. The Rode NT1A is a nice beginner mic which works and sounds great, and I use it for a lot of voiceover projects. Aaron: I like those mics. Ryan: I'm talking into that right now. We also use the Shure SM7B. We have a nice Neumann that we'll use for bigger projects. We like to use Universal Audio Interfaces, so I've got one of those. They're great. They're rock solid. You really can't beat them. At our main recording/editing audio work station, we use Pro Tools. That's very standard, and I've been using that for years and years. I use a lot of plugins. I use a lot of the Waves Plugins. I do use RX as well, and that's the bulk of it. I do a lot of processing, depending on the project. I have a really huge sound library for if I'm doing narrative pieces that involve sound design, sound effects. I have a great app called Audio Finder, which a lot of electronic musicians use to help them find sounds. I use it to help me find sounds. It's a nice way to catalogue sounds if you're a sound designer or anything like that. You can basically tag all these audio files with meta data, and you can search for sounds by their title. Or, if you type in a word in the search bar, it can pull up things based off the the metadata. If you have notes on something, it can find it. Audio Finder is a great way to find sounds. I have some other things in here. I have the Artist Mix Controller made by Avid. I use those if I'm automating stuff. I use those a lot, actually, when I'm mixing the sermons. I do a lot of automation for that. If I'm mixing a piece with a music bed or something, I like to automate the music by hand. It feels more natural, as opposed to clicking and making little dots. That's the bulk of it here in the office. All of our audio engineers have a nice pair of Focal monitors. I also have another set of monitors I built myself. When I mix TV episodes, I have an output routed to a TV here in my office so I can hear how it translates on TV speakers. Recording Audio for Video Ryan: On the front end of things, if we're doing shoots for videos, we use Sound Devices field recorders. We have three different models: the Sound Devices 788T 8 Channel Recorder, a 702 2 Channel Recorder, and then a 633 6 Channel Recorder. That last one is one of their newer models, which is great. Sound Devices are steep in price, but they are rock solid. One of the most trustworthy, well known field recorder brands on the market. That's what you'll see on pretty much every big budget shoot in some way. I do a lot of freelance on the side, which gives me the opportunity EPK shoots or BTS shoots for, recently, a show on HBO called Outcast. Aaron: Outcast? I've been seeing that (I watch Westworld). Ryan: I'm pretty sure it's the same writers or producers or something. I know it's the same writer as The Walking Dead. They shoot here in North Carolina, so with a local production company, we've done some interviews with some of the cast and crew. It's been really neat to be on set and see what they're using. It's cool to see how similar their world is to what we're doing day to day, just with more money and more resources. It's the same thing. Most of their audio guys have some sort of Sound Devices. A lot of them use the 788 as a backup recording rig, and they've got larger multitrack recorders as well, that are also made by Sound Devices. Sound Devices is a great brand. They're crazy expensive, but when you buy that, you know you've basically got it for life. Aaron: Yeah, I'm looking at the Sound Devices 788T SSD 8 Channel Portable Solid State Audio Recorder. It's almost $7,000. I love that! So fancy. Ryan: That SSD does have an internal hard drive. Ours has a hard drive as well, so it's great, because it has the internal hard drive, but you can also use CF cards. You can record on two different mediums. In case something runs out of space, you have it in two places. Aaron: This is super professional stuff. Ryan: Yeah. It is. It's top of the line. Aaron: Fantastic. For all the rest of you, just go with the Zoom H4N or the H6. Ryan: Hey, we do have a Zoom H4N, and we do use that every now and then. Before I came on staff, our first field recorder was the Zoom H4N. Aaron: If I could start over and go back to before I had any kind of interface at all, I think I would buy myself an H4N or an H6. Not only are they portable field recorders so you can walk around with them—they have little stereo condensor mics on them—but they work as audio interfaces, too. You can plug it into your computer with a USB cable and record straight to your computer if you do any kind of podcasting or stuff like that. It's good for the price. Otherwise, the little two channel interfaces are great. They're about $100 for a good one, but they aren't portable. You can't take them to a show or out to a video shoot the way you can an H4N or an H6 or something. Ryan: Speaking of Zoom, they've recently come into the more professional field recording market. About a year ago, they releases the F8, I believe, which is an 8 channel field recorder with 8 mic pres. It's $999 for something very comparable to a Sound Device. It's not quite as high-fidelity, but for anyone starting out, you're really not going to notice the difference. Mixing On Expensive Headphones or Monitors Aaron: I was going to ask you this earlier. You mentioned that you had Focal monitors. Did you listen to the episode I did a few episodes back where I talked about mixing on headphones (Episode 69: Do You Need Expensive Headphones to Mix a Podcast?)? Ryan: Yes, I did. Aaron: I mix on $10 Panasonics. What do you think about that? You can be totally honest with me. You can tell me that it's a stupid idea or that it's okay. Ryan: I agree to a certain extent. I agree that you should be listening to what you're making on whatever the majority of people are going to be listening to it on. For a lot of audio engineers mixing music, that's iPod earbuds, those standard earbuds you get. Something like that. When I mix TV, I have an output routed to a TV in my office, so I can hear it on TV speakers. I do also believe in mixing on something with some sort of higher fidelity type of monitoring environment, whether that's nicer speakers or nicer headphones. Naturally, you're going to hear things differently. The main thing to take away is how things translate. If you're listening to something on one source and you make it sound good there, that's great, but in a different environment, it may sound completely different. iPhone earbuds may not have the bass that a car stereo has. You want to hear how it translates from one thing to another. That's why it's good to at least listen to it on two different sources and not just narrow yourself down to one cruddy thing. That's good in theory, but again, the key takeaway is translation. Aaron: Maybe it's a little bit different for me and I can get away with it because of the consistency of the microphones and the recording environment set we use. Ryan: Yeah, totally. Aaron: I think if I was doing more stuff like you are, with videos and clients and all that kind of stuff, I would absolutely be using my higher fidelity headphones. Ryan: Very true. The bulk of your work is dialogue, podcasts. Aaron: Yeah, that's really it. Just dudes talking into a microphone. Ryan: Yeah. I have done a lot of work here where I'm working in a small studio, but a lot of my mixes have played in auditoriums and arenas. If you're working on projects like music or film that have different audio frequencies and spectrums, remember that sound will be perceived differently in different places. Aaron: How do you even test for that? Ryan: Here, I at least have a sense of how our auditorium sounds, so I've trained my ear to hear in advance and understand how it's going to translate. For something like when we did a live recording in the biggest arena here in Charlotte, we had a video opener piece. I was on point for mixing that, so basically, I had to work with tech and production to find a time after setup where I can bring my session, copy it onto a laptop, and play it through the PA. Then I can make any final mix tweaks there in the auditorium or the arena. I perfected it in my studio, and any small tweaks I was able to do in that actual environment. Granted, a lot of the times, we may not have that luxury. There are also great plugins you can buy that simulate different monitoring environments, like Sonarworks. If you have certain pairs of headphones, you can tell the program, “I have these headphones, now make my mix sound like it's coming through these headphones or these speakers,” so you can hear how it might translate. In that program, they have a final output like the Beats headphones. You can hear how it might sound on there, super bass heavy. Aaron: I hear they're getting better, but I still have never bought any Beats headphones. I probably should (just for testing purposes). Ryan: There are definitely programs out there to help you see how things translate to different monitors. On Location Gear Ryan: We were talking about the gear we use for on location recording. Sound Devices would be our main recorders. For our mics, we use Schoeps. It's a shotgun microphone, so it's a narrow polar pattern with good off axis rejection. Schoeps is a great brand. Again, you'll see this on professional movie sets. That's the mic we use. We have some Sennheiser shotguns as well, the ME66, we have a couple of those, which is more their entry shotgun mics. Recently, I rented some of the MKH416. Aaron: I would like one of those. The Sennheiser 416 is well known as the classic TV shotgun mic, right? Ryan: Exactly. I rented those out because I wanted to try it out for that reason. The Schoeps is very good and very well known on set as well, but so is the 416. I rented it to try it out. It's a trusted mic that a lot of people use for these professional things, and it doesn't really break the bank for what it is. Aaron: They're like $1,000, I think. Ryan: Yeah, and it sounded great. Aaron: The next mic I get is either going to be that or the Rode NTG 3. Ryan: I've heard a lot of great things about that. I haven't tried one myself. Aaron: That's the shotgun mics we shot my podcasting courses with. Ryan: Yeah, I know that Sean uses that for all of his videos. Aaron: I'm excited about getting to go work with those (I'm moving to San Antonio in March or April). Master the Basics Aaron: That's a pretty good run through of your gear. I'm sure you could keep going and discuss a lot more, but I don't think we need to go into that. It seems like you guys are at a super professional, high quality. You have made big investments in professional gear, which is fantastic. I encourage everyone to strive for that, to aim for that, but like we said earlier, use what you have right now. I don't have anything close to what you guys have, but I'm still doing my podcast. I'm doing the best I can with what I have. Ryan: It still sounds great. Aaron: Thanks! It's mostly just knowing how to set gain levels and not having a noisy room. It's crazy how far the basics will get you— everything else is just icing on the cake. I've been watching this video course called Zen and the Art of Work, which I really recommend to everybody. It's mindfulness training mixed with productivity training, which is such a great combination. In this course, he says, “So many of the masters continually revisit the basics.” Mastery is staying on a path. It's not reaching some final goal, it's more about being with the work and investing in getting better, but also revisiting the basics. He was talking about playing piano. He was like, “A lot of times, I just start by touching the keys, pressing the keys, and then doing basic scales over and over again.” It's true. When you get so good at the basics that you don't have to think about it, that's when you start to expand and get to that level where people say, “Wow, you're so good at that. How did you get so good?” You're like, “That was just doing the basics. It's not anything fancy.” It's so important to master the basics and keep going back to them. Learning More Aaron: What's next for you? How do you invest in yourself and improve? Or are you working so much that you always have more learning opportunities? Do you buy books or courses or follow any websites to learn more about this audio stuff? Ryan: Honestly? We had a shift at work to where my role has shifted to mainly just broadcasts. That has enabled me to have a little bit more flexibility and free time, so I've been doing a lot more freelance work. That's great, because it energizes me and keeps me engaged. It keeps me from routine. Routine is great. I love routine, that's very much my personality, but freelance work keeps things interesting. For me, it's all about where and how I can get inspired and constantly feeding that. It's about feeding my desire for creativity. We're all creatives. We like to create. We were designed to be creators, really. Everything I try to do is about how I can become a better creator and what I can create next. It's about finding things that inspire me, really. We touched lightly on a few of the resources that I like, things I've learned and places I've picked things up. If you're interested in audio for post production, there are a couple of great books by Ric Viers. I have two books by him that are really great. The first one is The Sound Effects Bible, and it's not just sound effects in there. He talks about everything from gear to microphones, basics, setting proper gains, compression, some mixing techniques, etc. He also has The Location Sound Bible. There are a lot of similarities, but there's also a lot of talk about gear, shotgun mics, lop mics, recorders, and then he also dives into some of the basics when it comes to mixing, proper gain staging, and so on. Those are a really great pool of knowledge in book form. There are a lot of other books out there, but I have found those two to be really helpful. Other than that, when it comes to audio for video, it's a very small, niche field. There isn't a crazy amount of stuff out there, like there might be for mixing music. For that, you've got tons. You've got Pensado's Place, all these people on YouTube putting out channels on mixing, mixing from home, mixing on a budget, etc. There's plenty of that. Aaron: Graham Cochrane and Joe Gilder are pretty awesome resources for anyone who wants to start a home studio. Ryan: YouTube can be a pool of knowledge for anything and everything, too. You have to dig a little bit and do some searching. On the inspiration side, for me, since I love audio for video, Sound Works Collection is a great place. They'll do mini videos interviewing the sound people that did sound for X movie. Whether it was the last Harry Potter or anything and everything, big budget films, they'll sit down with the recording people, the sound designers, the mixers… It's really cool, because they'll show footage of them doing stuff on location or the foley artists. It's cool to see their process. For me, that helps me stay inspired. It gives me ideas to do other things. They have a podcast as well, and that's great. The videos can be kind of short, maybe 10 minutes or so, but the podcast will go on at length, talking to the audio guys who have made sound for videos possible. It will also be music composers for movies as well. That's really great. I found that great not only as inspiration, but to know what and how audio professionals for big budget films get inside their minds, how they're thinking, and what their process looks like. It's neat to see stuff about sound engineers for big movies and realize that we're not so different. Dealing With a Broad Loudness Spectrum (Dynamics) Aaron: I have a nerdy question here. This is about normalizing and compression, I think. Aiya had asked, “I'm so torn about normalizing sound clips. If I'm working on a longer project in segments, would it be better to adjust my peaks manually for the sake of consistency? It's for a video project.” I'm hearing that there are differences in video volumes. How do you deal with that? Do you do compression? Do you do automation for the different parts? How do you deal with dynamics? Ryan: It depends on the project. I'll talk about how I would mix a sermon, because that's very dynamic. Our pastor will go from whispering, holding his handheld mic close to his stomach, to screaming, holding the microphone, cupping the capsule. Power and respect to him, because it creates a certain atmosphere, which has a powerful effect. That's what I'm dealing with on a weekly basis. That dynamic range is tremendous. Keep in mind, this is going to TV eventually. TV has very strict restrictions. It's not so much on level, but on perceived level. There's a difference between what you see meter and what you're hearing. I can talk at length about that, too. Aaron: Could you give us a super short version? I'm kind of aware of that, but since I just mix in Logic, I'm not sure how to measure it. Is there a way to measure it in Logic? Do you know? Is there a plugin you use? Ryan: I use a plugin from Waves. It's a loudness meter, and its just that. It has a lot of presets, so I'll use the TV standard preset. I'll use it for ATSE85, and I'll use it for a dialogue bus. They've also got one for a master bus. The standard right there is your average level around -24 dB LUFS, so that's full scale. If you have a classic meters, your peak would be zero, so that would average metering right around -10. At least for TV, I've got a hard limiter at -10 dB, to where nothing can go above that. The difference between levels on a meter vs. perceived loudness is the differences between what we hear and the actual energy. In our TV program, we'll have the sermon, but we'll also have a talking heads segments, which is dialogue and a music bed. We'll also go into segments where they'll go into worship from our live album, which had been mixed and mastered as an album. That thing is slammed. If you look at the wave form, it's a sausage. If I'm setting all that by the meters alone and they're all hitting -10, it may look right, but if I look at my loudness meter, that worship segment is going to be off the charts. There's so much more content in there. There's so much going on with all the different frequency ranges as opposed to a dialogue track, which is a narrow field in the frequency spectrum. That's the gist of it. When it comes to my technique for controlling dynamics, for something like mixing a sermon, if I'm going down my plugin chain, the first thing I naturally have is a high pass filter. I'm rolling off those unnecessary lows that are hogging energy. The next thing I'll do is use a compressor, and I'll set the attack to right in the middle, so not fast or slow, and I'll have the release time at fast. We don't want to hear it pumping, letting go. That's catching my peaks. It's not doing a crazy amount, but it kind of is. That's helping do a lot of the bulk compression. Before anything really hits the compressor, I will go through, and as I work my way through the mix, I will clip gain the wave form, so that, say, if he's whispering somewhere, I might keep that, depending on how I have my compressor set. Then, if we go up to a part where he's screaming and my wave form is huge, I will take that down and create those nodes, those dots in the wave form, and drag the actual clip volume down, that gain down. That way, it's not going into the compressor at this high gain level. It's hitting the compressor evenly as the rest of it would. That way, it's not driving the compressor crazy. Then I'll go through and do some EQ and DSing and whatnot. I might add some more compressors in there, just to grab some of those little things coming through. After that, it's subtle, just smoothing it out. Aaron: It is a little bit of both. If she has access to an audio editing program—I don't know what she's using for editing. If you can put a compressor on the track, do that. It's not exactly the same, but I did a YouTube video about how I process podcast vocals, and it's very similar. For podcast vocals, I start with a Logic noise removal plugin. Ryan: I actually have my noise suppressor, and I'll use that later on down in my signal chain. My way of thinking is that if I've got all this compression going on, the compression is narrowing that dynamic range, so it's bringing up that noise floor. I tend to do my noise suppression after the bulk of that compression, because the noise floor is higher and it's easier to work on a supressor. If that makes sense. Aaron: I've thought a lot about whether you should do the noise removal before or after you add a bunch of gain with a compressor or something, and I can't think of a good reason that it matters. You can take out the noise before you add a bunch of gain, or you can add a bunch of gain and take out the noise afterwards. Which is better? I don't know. Anyways, after the noise removal plugin, I put an EQ with a high pass filter, a peak compressor, an RMS or an average level compressor, and then a limiter. Ryan: Like I mentioned earlier, before I had my long-winded answer, it also depends on what it is you're mixing—whether it's music, or a podcast, or something for film. When it comes to dialogue for film, you want it to sound as natural as possible, but you also want to be able to hear if someone is whispering. When it comes to that, I'll still use a compressor, but it will be very, very light. If there's anything I need to do to meet loudness, that I will automate the volume on my dialogue bus. I'll bring that up. That way, it sounds a little bit more natural, instead of solely relying on a compressor to do all the work for you. Aaron: That makes sense. For podcasts, if I notice that there's a section where someone was talking much quieter, like if a guest backed away and talked like that for four or five minutes and then went back to the normal distance from the microphone, in Logic, I'll turn that into its own clip. I make a cut on either side of the quiet part, and then, in Logic, you can double click on it and change gain by hitting Control G. Then you can add 3, 4, or 5 dB to it. That works out pretty well. If it's every five seconds or I have to do it more than five or six times in an episode, I won't do the clip gain changes, I'll just use a compressor. Look at the overall audio file and see if there are long stretches where you can use automation to change the gain, or change the clip gain. Common Audio Mistakes Podcasters Make Ryan: You asked a question that I think would be good to talk about in regards to podcasting. You had asked, “What do you like about podcasts? What common mistakes do you hear people make?” Initially, I read this and thought, “I don't know,” but I spent some time thinking about it. This is great, because it piggybacks off the loudness thing. A lot of the mistakes that I hear when it comes to podcasts in regards to audio is the levels and loudness aspect. I'll listen to some podcasts that sound great, and I'll put on another podcast where the whole thing is super quiet. Then they start laughing, and it's really loud. There are some, like mine, where they have a music bed underneath the entire thing, and then sometimes the music bed is so quiet that you hardly know it's there. You're like, “What the heck is that noise in the background?” Sometimes, it's the opposite. Sometimes, the music bed is way too loud. That's a few of the things I've noticed. A lot of the fixes relate to what we just talked about. It helps to have knowledge of levels and perceived loudness. If you're mixing a podcast, make sure your levels are consistent. One of the biggest things I can recommend for anyone mixing anything, whether it's music, movies, a podcast, is the importance of having a reference track. Aaron: Yeah, I don't talk about that enough. Ryan: That is huge. Professional audio engineers who mix platinum records still do this. They will pull in a track from a different song that is mixed well and is mixed how they want theirs to sound, and they'll have it muted in their session. When they want to have a reference to listen to or train their ear, they'll un-mute it, and they'll go, “Oh, okay.” I'm sure you've done the same thing as me, where you'll be so involved in a mix, you're in it, and you think it sounds great, and then maybe you go away. You go home, sleep, and maybe you come back, and you open it up and you go, “Woah! What was I thinking!” You can get so involved in it that the blinders go up. You get tunnel vision, and you're not aware to some things. It's good to have a reference track or get an outsider's opinion on a mix. The main takeaway here is the reference track. That would help with anything, whether it's the timbre, how you're EQing, or the loudness. You pull in their track and it's far louder than yours, and you automatically know that you need to do something about it. Aaron: That's a great idea. You can kind of do this before or after. You go through and you edit your whole podcast, get everything set up the way you want, create an extra track, and then find a podcast that sounds really good—This American Life or pretty much anything by NPR—download an episode, drop it into your editing program, and play it, mute it, and see what the difference is. Maybe you need to add some gain with an adaptive limiter or with a compressor, or maybe you can tell that your track sounds way sharper or harsher. Are there are too many high frequencies or too much bass compared to your reference track? You can adjust those things. I'm so glad you mentioned that. I've never thought of that before, and that's such a good idea. Ryan: It's one of those things you don't think of much, but once you do it, you're like, “Oh my gosh!” It's really eye opening and really helpful. You can find Ryan online at ryanmonette.com, and follow him on Twitter @RyanMonette.

My guest this week is professional audio engineer Ryan Monette. Ryan graduated from Berklee College of Music with a degree in Music Production & Engineering. For the last 4.5 years he's been the Post-Production Audio Engineer on staff at Elevation Church, in Charlotte, NC, where he mixes their global TV show, and has many other responsibilities (boom operator, field recorder, sound designer, audio editor, etc.). You may have heard some of his work, as he sound-designed and mixed the opener video for the Circles conference for the past two years. He even had his own podcast for a short while (TheQueuecast.com). I asked Ryan to come on the show to share his journey towards becoming a professional audio engineer (a job that I've always wanted), and to get him to share some tips for anyone interested in working in audio/video professionally.Highlights, Takeaways & Quick Wins:Think long term and dream big.If you want to do anything with audio, start by getting a cheap USB microphone.Take advantage of free online courses to learn more about audio engineering.Get started with whatever you have.Your mix may sound completely different in a different environment, so listen with different headphones/speakers in different locations.Master the basics and keep going back to them.If you’re mixing a podcast, make sure your levels are consistent.When mixing, always use a reference track.Show NotesAaron: You graduated from Berklee College of Music with a degree in music production and engineering. For the last five years, you’ve been the post production audio engineer for Elevation Church in Charlotte, North Carolina. You have a lot of jobs there: boom operator, field recorder, sound designer, audio editor, and you mix their global TV show. Do you mix that live?Ryan: Not necessarily. We can get into that later. There’s a process for that.Aaron: Some of the creative people here might have heard of some of your work. You sound designed and mixed the opening videos for the past two years of Circles Conference, which I was at. Have you been there for the past two years?Ryan: I haven’t been personally, no. I have wanted to go. I love it from afar, and I want to go in person.Aaron: I wanted you to come on this show because when I first got started, I had dreams of being a professional audio engineer. I thought, “How cool would it be to work in audio and get paid for it? That’d be awesome!”I fell backwards into it by doing podcast editing as a hobby first, then for money, then I met Sean McCabe and ended up working for him full time. I edit podcasts and help out with a ton of other stuff. I asked you to come on the show to share your advice for anyone who’s interested in working in audio/video professionally, and to talk about how you got there yourself. So tell me a little bit about how you got into audio. When did you first realize that this was something you wanted to do?Ryan’s Journey to Becoming a Professional Audio EngineerRyan: I love listening to your podcast, Aaron, and what I love about it is I feel like you and I have a lot of similarities in our backgrounds. You’re a musician, a drummer, and I’m also a musician. I play several things. My primary instrument is bass, but along with that, I started on piano. I picked up bass, and with the bass I picked up guitar. I took some drum lessons here and there as well.I sing as well. I dabbled in a little bit of everything. I’m kind of a jack of all trades, master of none. I’m okay at a lot of things, but I’m not superb at one thing. Anyway, right around junior high or high school, I started playing the bass. I started playing in little bands here and there. When it came time for college, I had no clue what I wanted to do. All I knew was that I loved music.Aaron: Same here!Ryan: I was living in Las Vegas at the time, so I decided, well, everyone has to have that college experience, and I didn’t want to go to college in the same city, so I decided that I needed that “being away from home” experience. I went to the University of Nevada, Reno. I took your basic, general classes, not knowing what I wanted to do. At this time, for my high school graduation, I had received a graduation present of a Macbook Pro.With that, of course, you get the wonderful iLife suite, including Garageband. As a musician, a whole new world was opened up to me. When I was in a band in high school, I was the gear head—I loved the PA and putting cables together.I was drawn to that. Once I had this Macbook Pro with Garageband and I had my bass and my guitar in my dorm, I was like, “I can create music!” I figured out how to work it and record myself. I bought a USB microphone, and that world was opened up. When I was there, I had a friend, and her brother went to this school where all they learned about was music. I was like, “Wait, you can do that? You can go to school for just music?”That’s how I found out about Berklee School of Music. I applied, and you have to audition as well. I applied and auditioned, and the first time I tried, I actually didn’t get into the music school I wanted to go to.Aaron: This sparks something in my mind. I feel like I might have read an article about Berklee or looked into it and thought, “No, they’re really strict on who they accept, based on your performance.” That was intimidating to me at the time, because I never felt like I was that good of a drummer.Ryan: It was intimidating for me, too. Clearly, I wasn’t up to par.Aaron: Yet you went for it. That’s more than a lot of people would do.Ryan: Yeah. After I finished my first year at UNR, I moved back to Vegas and went to UNLV, the University of Nevada Las Vegas. I took all music classes, forgetting the general ed stuff you need to get a degree. I took all music classes—music theory, because I had never had actual music theory classes, so I thought I needed that. With that, there were some audio classes that I took as well. I was like, “Hey, I like this audio thing.”At the University of Nevada Las Vegas, I had my first exposure to a formal audio class, where I learned all the proper techniques. Later on that year, I applied and auditioned again for Berklee. I got accepted, and the next year, I moved to Boston and went to Berklee for about three and a half years. Then I graduated. When I went to Berklee, the only thing that drew me as a major was Music Production and Engineering. I naturally loved the gear side of things. I fell in love with recording. I was like, “This is what I want to do.”Aaron: You got to spend three and a half years there, studying and learning?Ryan: It is non-stop, 24/7, music, audio, and to be honest, I miss being in that environment so much.Aaron: That sounds fantastic. I always love setting aside time to take online classes, read books, and listen to interviews about audio.Think Long-TermAaron: You were drawn to the audio engineering stuff, and then you graduated.Ryan: I can remember a specific time in my life, and I’m pretty sure it was my last semester at Berklee. They went by semesters instead of years. It was in one of my capstone classes. Our instructor asked us the typical, “Where do you see yourself in five years?” question.Aaron: I love that question now. I hated it when I was 22.** Think long term and dream big**Aaron: Plan out where you want to be, because if you can envision it, then you can figure out how to get there. But you have to start by saying, “I want to do this thing someday.” For me, it was, “I want to do work from a laptop. How do I get there?” Now I’m there. So you were 22 and someone asked you, “Ryan, where do you want to be? Where do you see yourself in five years?”Ryan: At that moment, I was trying to figure that out, naturally, as you do when you’re approaching the end of college. While I was at Berklee, I loved music. I loved recording music, but my absolute favorite class—they only had one of them, but it was the class I yearned for, that I wanted to take and put in all these extra hours for—was audio for visual media, audio for video.By far, that was my favorite class. The whole class, we were working toward our final project. You choose a five to seven minute clip from a well known movie, and all the audio is completely stripped. You have to recreate everything. That’s all the dialogue, all the foley, all the ambient background, all the hard effects, and so on. You have to connect with a film scoring student there at Berklee, and they have to provide the score. I absolutely loved every aspect of that project and the process. When it came time to decide what I wanted to do with my life, it was between audio engineering at a recording studio, working at Disney as an Imagineer, or doing audio at a church.I have always been involved with church, playing on worship teams and whatnot, so I also saw myself doing audio for a church. Long story short, I was really privileged to dip my feet in all of those things after college. After I graduated, I moved back to Las Vegas. Eventually, I found an incredible recording studio, probably one of the top two recording studios in Las Vegas, and I landed an internship.First Audio Engineering JobsRyan: I say “internship” loosely, because your typical studio internship is all the stereotypical grunt work—taking out the trash, doing the coffee, and whatnot. I showed up, and they were like, “You went to Berklee? Berklee guys are cool. Here, hop in this session and help us out.” It was open to me, thrown at me, and next thing I knew, I was assisting on sessions with huge clients, I won’t name drop.Aaron: You can drop a couple of names if you want.Ryan: I had a pretty fun time helping out with a session with the famous engineer Eddie Kramer, who is engineering for Carlos Santana.Aaron: Dang, man! That’s awesome.Ryan: That was pretty incredible. But while I was there, I had this gut feeling inside of me saying, “This isn’t it.”Aaron: It’s fine, but it’s not quite right?Ryan: I could see myself staying there and working my way up, but it didn’t feel right. A few months after I realized that I didn’t want to stay at the studio, I applied and was offered a job at Walt Disney World in Orlando, Florida.I packed my bags, moved to Orlando, and I was working as a stage technician at the Epcot park. There, they found out that I was an audio guy, so they pushed me toward the live audio side of things. I was mixing shows and bands at Epcot and what was at the time Downtown Disney, now Disney Springs, area. Same thing. Almost as soon as I got there, the same gut feeling came in.I was like, “This isn’t it. I’m more of a studio engineer. I definitely don’t want to do live stuff.” Although I love Disney, it just wasn’t sitting right. I was only there three months before the next great opportunity came up, which is where I am right now. One of my friends told me about a job opening for this church in Charlotte, North Carolina, Elevation Church. I had actually been following them because of their podcast.At the time, I was kind of like, “I’ve got a job, whatever.” For some reason, I ended up on their website, looking at the job. I was reading, and I was like, “Wait a minute, they’re looking for someone to do audio for video. That’s what I really want to do!” On a whim, I threw out my resume. Next thing you know, I’ve been here going on five years.Aaron: Did you mention that you were a podcast listener when you sent in your resume?Ryan: Yeah.Aaron: The connections you can make through podcasting is really incredible.Ryan: It is. And I’ve been working there for 5 years now.How to Get Into Audio EngineeringAaron: I want to jump into what you do at your job at Elevation, but let’s pause and do a section on what advice you would tell someone who’s wanting to get started. I wrote a couple of things down here. I think it’s hilarious that you got a Macbook and your first microphone was a USB microphone.Ryan: Which was the Blue Snowball, by the way.Aaron: That’s the worst microphone!Ryan: I had no idea how to use it, either. If I find some of the earliest recordings I did, there are times I’m clipping to the max, square waves.Aaron: Probably bad mic technique, too. But hey; it got you started!If you want to do anything with audio, start by getting a cheap USB microphone.Any USB mics will work for getting started. I like the Blue Yeti, but it’s like $100. The ATR-2100 is fine, too. You just have to get something that can record some audio and start playing with it.Start playing with Garageband. Start playing with the free programs. Learn how to enable recording on a track, how to set your input device to the microphone, how to set your output device to wherever your headphones are plugged into, whether that’s your mic or your computer. It took me so long to figure that stuff out. I was like, “Why can’t I hear the audio in my headphones? What is going on?”Ryan: Same here.Aaron: You have to set input and output, then you have to record enable or do the input monitoring, all that stuff. But start with the USB microphone. Take some basic classes. There are so many great online classes. If you don’t have any money at all, if you’re super broke like I was when I started, watch some free YouTube videos. Read a book.Ryan: If you go to Coursera.org, they’re a website where you can pay to take online courses and get certifications and whatnot, but they also offer free online courses. They even offer free online courses from Berklee. I’ve seen a music production class there. I’ve taken a free online song writing class.Check out free online courses, because they can be a pool of incredible knowledge.I took a photography class on there. Coursera is a great place. They’re great if you want to take free online courses.Aaron: There are places where you can learn all this stuff. You just have to invest some time. You really just have to start: Don’t wait until you have $500 for an interface and $200 for some professional headphones and microphone. Whether you want to start a podcast, start recording audio for a video, or record and mix a demo for a band, start doing something.Stop spending all your time thinking about how you can’t do anything because you don’t have certain gear or you’re not in the right place. You’ll learn as you do, especially in audio. You’re going to make a ton of mistakes.Ryan: That’s how you learn, though! That’s one of the most valuable things I’ve learned in life. You learn from your mistakes.Aaron: You don’t really learn when everything goes well.Just StartAaron: Any other advice you would give somebody, thinking back on how you got to where you are right now?Ryan: Honestly, you hit the nail on the head with “just start.” It’s as simple and cliche as Nike, “Just do it.” There is always going to be the next latest craze, the gear, and we’ve all been susceptible to that. We say, “Oh, well, I could do this if I had X.” It starts with the drive and determination, wanting to do it. There’s knowledge out there everywhere. You just have to dig for it.Chances are, you have at least something you can start with. Record something on your phone.Aaron: I have a friend who makes some awesome music on his iPhone.Ryan: Oh, totally. It’s as simple as getting an adapter. You can plug your guitar or whatever into your phone.Aaron: Kids these days have it so easy!Ryan: You have Garageband on your phone. I remember when I was figuring this out in high school, and we actually had a four track tape recorder. That was my first start. Get started with whatever you have.Aaron: What kind of stuff do you do at the church? What’s your day to day life like? Are you there every day, or is it just a couple of days a week?Ryan: Oh no, I’m definitely there every day. It has been a whirlwind for sure. In the past five years, I have probably played every audio role that there is to be played here. My main thing now is audio for broadcasts, pretty much anything that leaves the church. Our biggest output is the sermon, which goes to a lot of places.It also goes in the TV episode, which we talked about, which goes locally, nationally, and, I believe, globally as well. That’s a lot of what I’ve done. We also create a lot of films, short films, for our worship experiences, anything you can imagine that’s video and audio related. Audio post production, like we talk about. I’m constantly on video shoots using field recorders, the boom op, anything you can think of. Audio for video, I’ve done it.The Gear Ryan UsesAaron: Let’s talk about your gear a little bit. What kind of stuff are you using most in everyday life? I’ll do a quick recap: I have the Shure Beta 87A Mic as my main podcasting microphone. It’s attached to a Scarlett 18i20 USB Interface (update: I’m now using my Zoom H6 exclusively), which is plugged into a quadcore iMac that’s a couple years old.Nothing super fancy, but I’m really happy with where I am. I remember wanting all this stuff back in 2011, thinking how awesome it would be to have it. I have a Zoom H6 portable recorder and a couple of SM58 microphones. I’ve been pairing down my gear collection because I’m planning on moving in the spring.What kind of stuff are you working with? I use Logic Pro X for editing, and then Izotope iZotope RX 5 for cleaning up background noise or fixing clipping. What about you? What’s your day to day favorite gear?Ryan: We use a lot. There’s a bunch of gear for field recording and then in my office, which is where I’m at right now. I’ll start with my office. Right now, I’m talking into my personal mic, which is a Rode NT1A. It’s very affordable.The Rode NT1A is a nice beginner mic which works and sounds great, and I use it for a lot of voiceover projects.Aaron: I like those mics.Ryan: I’m talking into that right now. We also use the Shure SM7B. We have a nice Neumann that we’ll use for bigger projects. We like to use Universal Audio Interfaces, so I’ve got one of those. They’re great. They’re rock solid. You really can’t beat them.At our main recording/editing audio work station, we use Pro Tools. That’s very standard, and I’ve been using that for years and years. I use a lot of plugins. I use a lot of the Waves Plugins. I do use RX as well, and that’s the bulk of it. I do a lot of processing, depending on the project.I have a really huge sound library for if I’m doing narrative pieces that involve sound design, sound effects. I have a great app called Audio Finder, which a lot of electronic musicians use to help them find sounds. I use it to help me find sounds. It’s a nice way to catalogue sounds if you’re a sound designer or anything like that.You can basically tag all these audio files with meta data, and you can search for sounds by their title. Or, if you type in a word in the search bar, it can pull up things based off the the metadata. If you have notes on something, it can find it. Audio Finder is a great way to find sounds.I have some other things in here. I have the Artist Mix Controller made by Avid. I use those if I’m automating stuff. I use those a lot, actually, when I’m mixing the sermons. I do a lot of automation for that. If I’m mixing a piece with a music bed or something, I like to automate the music by hand.It feels more natural, as opposed to clicking and making little dots. That’s the bulk of it here in the office. All of our audio engineers have a nice pair of Focal monitors. I also have another set of monitors I built myself. When I mix TV episodes, I have an output routed to a TV here in my office so I can hear how it translates on TV speakers.Recording Audio for VideoRyan: On the front end of things, if we’re doing shoots for videos, we use Sound Devices field recorders. We have three different models: the Sound Devices 788T 8 Channel Recorder, a 702 2 Channel Recorder, and then a 633 6 Channel Recorder. That last one is one of their newer models, which is great.Sound Devices are steep in price, but they are rock solid.One of the most trustworthy, well known field recorder brands on the market. That’s what you’ll see on pretty much every big budget shoot in some way. I do a lot of freelance on the side, which gives me the opportunity EPK shoots or BTS shoots for, recently, a show on HBO called Outcast.Aaron: Outcast? I’ve been seeing that (I watch Westworld).Ryan: I’m pretty sure it’s the same writers or producers or something. I know it’s the same writer as The Walking Dead. They shoot here in North Carolina, so with a local production company, we’ve done some interviews with some of the cast and crew. It’s been really neat to be on set and see what they’re using. It’s cool to see how similar their world is to what we’re doing day to day, just with more money and more resources.It’s the same thing. Most of their audio guys have some sort of Sound Devices. A lot of them use the 788 as a backup recording rig, and they’ve got larger multitrack recorders as well, that are also made by Sound Devices. Sound Devices is a great brand. They’re crazy expensive, but when you buy that, you know you’ve basically got it for life.Aaron: Yeah, I’m looking at the Sound Devices 788T SSD 8 Channel Portable Solid State Audio Recorder. It’s almost $7,000. I love that! So fancy.Ryan: That SSD does have an internal hard drive. Ours has a hard drive as well, so it’s great, because it has the internal hard drive, but you can also use CF cards. You can record on two different mediums. In case something runs out of space, you have it in two places.Aaron: This is super professional stuff.Ryan: Yeah. It is. It’s top of the line.Aaron: Fantastic. For all the rest of you, just go with the Zoom H4N or the H6.Ryan: Hey, we do have a Zoom H4N, and we do use that every now and then. Before I came on staff, our first field recorder was the Zoom H4N.Aaron: If I could start over and go back to before I had any kind of interface at all, I think I would buy myself an H4N or an H6. Not only are they portable field recorders so you can walk around with them—they have little stereo condensor mics on them—but they work as audio interfaces, too. You can plug it into your computer with a USB cable and record straight to your computer if you do any kind of podcasting or stuff like that.It’s good for the price. Otherwise, the little two channel interfaces are great. They’re about $100 for a good one, but they aren’t portable. You can’t take them to a show or out to a video shoot the way you can an H4N or an H6 or something.Ryan: Speaking of Zoom, they’ve recently come into the more professional field recording market. About a year ago, they releases the F8, I believe, which is an 8 channel field recorder with 8 mic pres. It’s $999 for something very comparable to a Sound Device. It’s not quite as high-fidelity, but for anyone starting out, you’re really not going to notice the difference.Mixing On Expensive Headphones or MonitorsAaron: I was going to ask you this earlier. You mentioned that you had Focal monitors. Did you listen to the episode I did a few episodes back where I talked about mixing on headphones (Episode 69: Do You Need Expensive Headphones to Mix a Podcast?)?Ryan: Yes, I did.Aaron: I mix on $10 Panasonics. What do you think about that? You can be totally honest with me. You can tell me that it’s a stupid idea or that it’s okay.Ryan: I agree to a certain extent. I agree that you should be listening to what you’re making on whatever the majority of people are going to be listening to it on. For a lot of audio engineers mixing music, that’s iPod earbuds, those standard earbuds you get. Something like that. When I mix TV, I have an output routed to a TV in my office, so I can hear it on TV speakers.I do also believe in mixing on something with some sort of higher fidelity type of monitoring environment, whether that’s nicer speakers or nicer headphones. Naturally, you’re going to hear things differently. The main thing to take away is how things translate.If you’re listening to something on one source and you make it sound good there, that’s great, but in a different environment, it may sound completely different.iPhone earbuds may not have the bass that a car stereo has. You want to hear how it translates from one thing to another. That’s why it’s good to at least listen to it on two different sources and not just narrow yourself down to one cruddy thing. That’s good in theory, but again, the key takeaway is translation.Aaron: Maybe it’s a little bit different for me and I can get away with it because of the consistency of the microphones and the recording environment set we use.Ryan: Yeah, totally.Aaron: I think if I was doing more stuff like you are, with videos and clients and all that kind of stuff, I would absolutely be using my higher fidelity headphones.Ryan: Very true. The bulk of your work is dialogue, podcasts.Aaron: Yeah, that’s really it. Just dudes talking into a microphone.Ryan: Yeah. I have done a lot of work here where I’m working in a small studio, but a lot of my mixes have played in auditoriums and arenas.If you’re working on projects like music or film that have different audio frequencies and spectrums, remember that sound will be perceived differently in different places.Aaron: How do you even test for that?Ryan: Here, I at least have a sense of how our auditorium sounds, so I’ve trained my ear to hear in advance and understand how it’s going to translate. For something like when we did a live recording in the biggest arena here in Charlotte, we had a video opener piece. I was on point for mixing that, so basically, I had to work with tech and production to find a time after setup where I can bring my session, copy it onto a laptop, and play it through the PA.Then I can make any final mix tweaks there in the auditorium or the arena. I perfected it in my studio, and any small tweaks I was able to do in that actual environment. Granted, a lot of the times, we may not have that luxury. There are also great plugins you can buy that simulate different monitoring environments, like Sonarworks.If you have certain pairs of headphones, you can tell the program, “I have these headphones, now make my mix sound like it’s coming through these headphones or these speakers,” so you can hear how it might translate. In that program, they have a final output like the Beats headphones. You can hear how it might sound on there, super bass heavy.Aaron: I hear they’re getting better, but I still have never bought any Beats headphones. I probably should (just for testing purposes).Ryan: There are definitely programs out there to help you see how things translate to different monitors.On Location GearRyan: We were talking about the gear we use for on location recording. Sound Devices would be our main recorders. For our mics, we use Schoeps. It’s a shotgun microphone, so it’s a narrow polar pattern with good off axis rejection. Schoeps is a great brand. Again, you’ll see this on professional movie sets.That’s the mic we use. We have some Sennheiser shotguns as well, the ME66, we have a couple of those, which is more their entry shotgun mics. Recently, I rented some of the MKH416.Aaron: I would like one of those. The Sennheiser 416 is well known as the classic TV shotgun mic, right?Ryan: Exactly. I rented those out because I wanted to try it out for that reason. The Schoeps is very good and very well known on set as well, but so is the 416. I rented it to try it out. It’s a trusted mic that a lot of people use for these professional things, and it doesn’t really break the bank for what it is.Aaron: They’re like $1,000, I think.Ryan: Yeah, and it sounded great.Aaron: The next mic I get is either going to be that or the Rode NTG 3.Ryan: I’ve heard a lot of great things about that. I haven’t tried one myself.Aaron: That’s the shotgun mics we shot my podcasting courses with.Ryan: Yeah, I know that Sean uses that for all of his videos.Aaron: I’m excited about getting to go work with those (I’m moving to San Antonio in March or April).Master the BasicsAaron: That’s a pretty good run through of your gear. I’m sure you could keep going and discuss a lot more, but I don’t think we need to go into that. It seems like you guys are at a super professional, high quality. You have made big investments in professional gear, which is fantastic. I encourage everyone to strive for that, to aim for that, but like we said earlier, use what you have right now. I don’t have anything close to what you guys have, but I’m still doing my podcast. I’m doing the best I can with what I have.Ryan: It still sounds great.Aaron: Thanks! It’s mostly just knowing how to set gain levels and not having a noisy room. It’s crazy how far the basics will get you— everything else is just icing on the cake.I’ve been watching this video course called Zen and the Art of Work, which I really recommend to everybody. It’s mindfulness training mixed with productivity training, which is such a great combination.In this course, he says, “So many of the masters continually revisit the basics.” Mastery is staying on a path. It’s not reaching some final goal, it’s more about being with the work and investing in getting better, but also revisiting the basics. He was talking about playing piano. He was like, “A lot of times, I just start by touching the keys, pressing the keys, and then doing basic scales over and over again.”It’s true. When you get so good at the basics that you don’t have to think about it, that’s when you start to expand and get to that level where people say, “Wow, you’re so good at that. How did you get so good?” You’re like, “That was just doing the basics. It’s not anything fancy.”It’s so important to master the basics and keep going back to them.Learning MoreAaron: What’s next for you? How do you invest in yourself and improve? Or are you working so much that you always have more learning opportunities? Do you buy books or courses or follow any websites to learn more about this audio stuff?Ryan: Honestly? We had a shift at work to where my role has shifted to mainly just broadcasts. That has enabled me to have a little bit more flexibility and free time, so I’ve been doing a lot more freelance work. That’s great, because it energizes me and keeps me engaged. It keeps me from routine. Routine is great.I love routine, that’s very much my personality, but freelance work keeps things interesting.For me, it’s all about where and how I can get inspired and constantly feeding that. It’s about feeding my desire for creativity. We’re all creatives. We like to create. We were designed to be creators, really. Everything I try to do is about how I can become a better creator and what I can create next. It’s about finding things that inspire me, really. We touched lightly on a few of the resources that I like, things I’ve learned and places I’ve picked things up.If you’re interested in audio for post production, there are a couple of great books by Ric Viers. I have two books by him that are really great. The first one is The Sound Effects Bible, and it’s not just sound effects in there. He talks about everything from gear to microphones, basics, setting proper gains, compression, some mixing techniques, etc. He also has The Location Sound Bible.There are a lot of similarities, but there’s also a lot of talk about gear, shotgun mics, lop mics, recorders, and then he also dives into some of the basics when it comes to mixing, proper gain staging, and so on. Those are a really great pool of knowledge in book form. There are a lot of other books out there, but I have found those two to be really helpful.Other than that, when it comes to audio for video, it’s a very small, niche field. There isn’t a crazy amount of stuff out there, like there might be for mixing music. For that, you’ve got tons. You’ve got Pensado’s Place, all these people on YouTube putting out channels on mixing, mixing from home, mixing on a budget, etc. There’s plenty of that.Aaron: Graham Cochrane and Joe Gilder are pretty awesome resources for anyone who wants to start a home studio.Ryan: YouTube can be a pool of knowledge for anything and everything, too. You have to dig a little bit and do some searching. On the inspiration side, for me, since I love audio for video, Sound Works Collection is a great place. They’ll do mini videos interviewing the sound people that did sound for X movie. Whether it was the last Harry Potter or anything and everything, big budget films, they’ll sit down with the recording people, the sound designers, the mixers…It’s really cool, because they’ll show footage of them doing stuff on location or the foley artists. It’s cool to see their process. For me, that helps me stay inspired. It gives me ideas to do other things. They have a podcast as well, and that’s great. The videos can be kind of short, maybe 10 minutes or so, but the podcast will go on at length, talking to the audio guys who have made sound for videos possible.It will also be music composers for movies as well. That’s really great. I found that great not only as inspiration, but to know what and how audio professionals for big budget films get inside their minds, how they’re thinking, and what their process looks like.It’s neat to see stuff about sound engineers for big movies and realize that we’re not so different.Dealing With a Broad Loudness Spectrum (Dynamics)Aaron: I have a nerdy question here. This is about normalizing and compression, I think. Aiya had asked, “I’m so torn about normalizing sound clips. If I’m working on a longer project in segments, would it be better to adjust my peaks manually for the sake of consistency? It’s for a video project.” I’m hearing that there are differences in video volumes. How do you deal with that? Do you do compression? Do you do automation for the different parts? How do you deal with dynamics?Ryan: It depends on the project. I’ll talk about how I would mix a sermon, because that’s very dynamic. Our pastor will go from whispering, holding his handheld mic close to his stomach, to screaming, holding the microphone, cupping the capsule. Power and respect to him, because it creates a certain atmosphere, which has a powerful effect. That’s what I’m dealing with on a weekly basis.That dynamic range is tremendous. Keep in mind, this is going to TV eventually. TV has very strict restrictions. It’s not so much on level, but on perceived level. There’s a difference between what you see meter and what you’re hearing. I can talk at length about that, too.Aaron: Could you give us a super short version? I’m kind of aware of that, but since I just mix in Logic, I’m not sure how to measure it. Is there a way to measure it in Logic? Do you know? Is there a plugin you use?Ryan: I use a plugin from Waves. It’s a loudness meter, and its just that. It has a lot of presets, so I’ll use the TV standard preset. I’ll use it for ATSE85, and I’ll use it for a dialogue bus. They’ve also got one for a master bus. The standard right there is your average level around -24 dB LUFS, so that’s full scale. If you have a classic meters, your peak would be zero, so that would average metering right around -10. At least for TV, I’ve got a hard limiter at -10 dB, to where nothing can go above that.The difference between levels on a meter vs. perceived loudness is the differences between what we hear and the actual energy.In our TV program, we’ll have the sermon, but we’ll also have a talking heads segments, which is dialogue and a music bed. We’ll also go into segments where they’ll go into worship from our live album, which had been mixed and mastered as an album. That thing is slammed. If you look at the wave form, it’s a sausage. If I’m setting all that by the meters alone and they’re all hitting -10, it may look right, but if I look at my loudness meter, that worship segment is going to be off the charts.There’s so much more content in there. There’s so much going on with all the different frequency ranges as opposed to a dialogue track, which is a narrow field in the frequency spectrum. That’s the gist of it. When it comes to my technique for controlling dynamics, for something like mixing a sermon, if I’m going down my plugin chain, the first thing I naturally have is a high pass filter. I’m rolling off those unnecessary lows that are hogging energy.The next thing I’ll do is use a compressor, and I’ll set the attack to right in the middle, so not fast or slow, and I’ll have the release time at fast. We don’t want to hear it pumping, letting go. That’s catching my peaks. It’s not doing a crazy amount, but it kind of is. That’s helping do a lot of the bulk compression. Before anything really hits the compressor, I will go through, and as I work my way through the mix, I will clip gain the wave form, so that, say, if he’s whispering somewhere, I might keep that, depending on how I have my compressor set.Then, if we go up to a part where he’s screaming and my wave form is huge, I will take that down and create those nodes, those dots in the wave form, and drag the actual clip volume down, that gain down. That way, it’s not going into the compressor at this high gain level. It’s hitting the compressor evenly as the rest of it would. That way, it’s not driving the compressor crazy. Then I’ll go through and do some EQ and DSing and whatnot. I might add some more compressors in there, just to grab some of those little things coming through. After that, it’s subtle, just smoothing it out.Aaron: It is a little bit of both. If she has access to an audio editing program—I don’t know what she’s using for editing. If you can put a compressor on the track, do that. It’s not exactly the same, but I did a YouTube video about how I process podcast vocals, and it’s very similar. For podcast vocals, I start with a Logic noise removal plugin.Ryan: I actually have my noise suppressor, and I’ll use that later on down in my signal chain. My way of thinking is that if I’ve got all this compression going on, the compression is narrowing that dynamic range, so it’s bringing up that noise floor. I tend to do my noise suppression after the bulk of that compression, because the noise floor is higher and it’s easier to work on a supressor. If that makes sense.Aaron: I’ve thought a lot about whether you should do the noise removal before or after you add a bunch of gain with a compressor or something, and I can’t think of a good reason that it matters. You can take out the noise before you add a bunch of gain, or you can add a bunch of gain and take out the noise afterwards. Which is better? I don’t know. Anyways, after the noise removal plugin, I put an EQ with a high pass filter, a peak compressor, an RMS or an average level compressor, and then a limiter.Ryan: Like I mentioned earlier, before I had my long-winded answer, it also depends on what it is you’re mixing—whether it’s music, or a podcast, or something for film.When it comes to dialogue for film, you want it to sound as natural as possible, but you also want to be able to hear if someone is whispering.When it comes to that, I’ll still use a compressor, but it will be very, very light. If there’s anything I need to do to meet loudness, that I will automate the volume on my dialogue bus. I’ll bring that up. That way, it sounds a little bit more natural, instead of solely relying on a compressor to do all the work for you.Aaron: That makes sense. For podcasts, if I notice that there’s a section where someone was talking much quieter, like if a guest backed away and talked like that for four or five minutes and then went back to the normal distance from the microphone, in Logic, I’ll turn that into its own clip. I make a cut on either side of the quiet part, and then, in Logic, you can double click on it and change gain by hitting Control G. Then you can add 3, 4, or 5 dB to it.That works out pretty well. If it’s every five seconds or I have to do it more than five or six times in an episode, I won’t do the clip gain changes, I’ll just use a compressor.Look at the overall audio file and see if there are long stretches where you can use automation to change the gain, or change the clip gain.Common Audio Mistakes Podcasters MakeRyan: You asked a question that I think would be good to talk about in regards to podcasting. You had asked, “What do you like about podcasts? What common mistakes do you hear people make?” Initially, I read this and thought, “I don’t know,” but I spent some time thinking about it. This is great, because it piggybacks off the loudness thing.A lot of the mistakes that I hear when it comes to podcasts in regards to audio is the levels and loudness aspect. I’ll listen to some podcasts that sound great, and I’ll put on another podcast where the whole thing is super quiet. Then they start laughing, and it’s really loud. There are some, like mine, where they have a music bed underneath the entire thing, and then sometimes the music bed is so quiet that you hardly know it’s there.You’re like, “What the heck is that noise in the background?” Sometimes, it’s the opposite. Sometimes, the music bed is way too loud. That’s a few of the things I’ve noticed. A lot of the fixes relate to what we just talked about. It helps to have knowledge of levels and perceived loudness.If you’re mixing a podcast, make sure your levels are consistent.One of the biggest things I can recommend for anyone mixing anything, whether it’s music, movies, a podcast, is the importance of having a reference track.Aaron: Yeah, I don’t talk about that enough.Ryan: That is huge. Professional audio engineers who mix platinum records still do this. They will pull in a track from a different song that is mixed well and is mixed how they want theirs to sound, and they’ll have it muted in their session. When they want to have a reference to listen to or train their ear, they’ll un-mute it, and they’ll go, “Oh, okay.”I’m sure you’ve done the same thing as me, where you’ll be so involved in a mix, you’re in it, and you think it sounds great, and then maybe you go away. You go home, sleep, and maybe you come back, and you open it up and you go, “Woah! What was I thinking!” You can get so involved in it that the blinders go up. You get tunnel vision, and you’re not aware to some things.It’s good to have a reference track or get an outsider’s opinion on a mix.The main takeaway here is the reference track. That would help with anything, whether it’s the timbre, how you’re EQing, or the loudness. You pull in their track and it’s far louder than yours, and you automatically know that you need to do something about it.Aaron: That’s a great idea. You can kind of do this before or after. You go through and you edit your whole podcast, get everything set up the way you want, create an extra track, and then find a podcast that sounds really good—This American Life or pretty much anything by NPR—download an episode, drop it into your editing program, and play it, mute it, and see what the difference is. Maybe you need to add some gain with an adaptive limiter or with a compressor, or maybe you can tell that your track sounds way sharper or harsher.Are there are too many high frequencies or too much bass compared to your reference track? You can adjust those things. I’m so glad you mentioned that. I’ve never thought of that before, and that’s such a good idea.Ryan: It’s one of those things you don’t think of much, but once you do it, you’re like, “Oh my gosh!” It’s really eye opening and really helpful.You can find Ryan online at ryanmonette.com, and follow him on Twitter @RyanMonette.

感谢热心听友“小睡猫JoJo”帮忙听写本篇文稿!Ryan: A deceased stuffed giraffe has been drawing people’s attention at a Zoo in Wuxi, East China’s Jiangsu province, during the past “Golden Week” holiday. The zoo’s goal was to notify visitors of the dangers of feeding their animals. Is this clever or creepy? Guys, what do you think? What’s going on?Bob: I want to tell you the story of the giraffe. It was a lovely lovely living giraffe a few years ago, about five years ago, and his name was Collin. I don’t know if you know it’s real name was Collin, but I am goanna call it giraffe Collin.(Niu Honglin: you named the giraffe) Collin wasn’t very well(Ryan: were you attached) I really like Collin, I really did. Maybe because it was really handy to have a giraffe, because you can reach high things. (Ryan: oh, yeah, make sense)yeah, Well, anyway, one day Collin was just minding his own businessatthe zoo and then somebody, a visitor, I should say, came along and throw a plastic bag into the enclosure and Collin ate the plastic bag and poor Collin died, gone, giraffe, X…. Ryan: Is that the end of Collin’s story?Bob: No, Strangely enough, Because they decided that, I don’t know when they decided, they just decided, I know, we can still use Collin, we can just stuff him and put it at the zoo as a warning to visitors to say don’t do this, just don’t throw plastic bags, or don’t feed animals with wrong things and whatever, because otherwise you end up stuffed. You know which is what happened to Collin. Obviously, I am not saying people are gonna end up stuffed.Ryan: That was magical story. (Bob: Thank you.)I real feel for Collin Bob: I hope I made it live.Niu Honglin: And on top of that, they even put Collin into this parade, saying, and just put it all around, and travelling him, I don’t know if is him or her within the zoo laps and laps, saying, see, this is what you do, you want all our animals to end up like this, if you don’t, stop feeding them.Bob: But the problem is they keep on feeding them. This is not the end of it. There was a turkey called Frank, ok (Ryan: Oh, that’s a great name for turkey). Well, anyway, so he died because it was overfed by visitors. There were two ostriches, I don’t know their name, Linda, I don’t know, birdy, whatever, because of eating plastic bags given by visitors. There were three deer who died respectively because of (Niu Honglin: oh my god) I don’t know, help me out with theese names, for goodness sake. Anyway, so basically (Ryan: Jerry, Jim, Jonson), oh, fine, whatever, so anyway, there are all these animals, all over the place, being given things by visitors. What is the problem here? Ryan: You know, obviously, this is nothing new. Animals are dying right and left basically; because people are feeding them. And I can understand why, you know, in my mind; here is what I am thinking. And, I am thinking, Sometimes my dog would come to the table. And my dog would always eat before the family did, soo that it will beg less. That was the strategy,never happened, Ok, so the dog had eaten its dinner. Now we’rere at the table having our dinner as a family. But the dog would always come up, and you know, flash those puppy dog eyes. (Bob: This is where you got it from, you do the same) you know when those puppy dog eyes are flashed at you, you just, you’re like“oh god, I know, you just ate, this is bad, but it feels so right”.Niu Honglin: See, You’ve paint a pretty picture, a lovely home, a lovely dog, family dinner, but I have to say, this is very serious. A survey conducted in Guangdong province suggested that 97, 97 percent participants believe animals can eat what human eat, that is not the fact, animals cannot eat whatever human eat; and 76 percent participants confess feeding animals is for entertainment, so they are just doing it because they think it’s fun; and 18 percent participants think animals cannot get enough food. This is not all right.Ryan: I want to go with that, that animals don’t get enough food, because these people, I do feel, when it comes to animals, they don’t know the stuff. Obviously your statistics pointed to that. ( Niu Honglin: Yes.) So the zoos not doing a good job, at least giving them that information, because this animals come up…Bob: No, I don’t think you can blame the zoos for this, because, I don’t know, but when I was a school kid. (Ryan: tell that to Jerry, Jamey and Jonson. Ok?) They are not around anymore. But, you know, When I was going up at school, I was pretty certain that we had lessons, where they say, look, this is a lion, don’t put your hand in the lion’s mouth, don’t, you know, try to feed itfish & chips or something like this, just don’t do it. And then maybe we were taken to the zoo by family or school, and again, we were shown, just don’t do it. So I think people need to know what wild animals are and what to eat before they even get to the zoo.Ryan: All right, fair enough, we can agree to disagree on this one. But, I will say that, in the US not too long ago, there was a famous gorilla that was shot and killed because a child fell into its enclosure, and the child was, they shot the gorilla to save the child. Well, basically it is the negligence of the mother that the child ended up in there. And I think it was the zoo’s fault, but I think people would be really outraged, in the US, if they paraded Harambe which was with the name of the gorilla, around, and saying, “Hey, guys, you know, this is the zoo, look at Harambe, he paid the ultimate price basically because you didn’t know, not to stick your hand into the lion’s mouth, or not to have your kid wonder around this enclosure.Niu Honglin: Yeah, I agree. So for this story, I do believe that feeding animals are not correct, are not right, you should not do this, but I don’t like the idea of having this poorly tragically died giraffe, make it stuffed giraffe, and just parade it everywhere. (Bob: …We are supposed be talking about Collin, aren’t we) yeah, Collin is just the sad animal; this is a creepy creepy story. I wish Collin rest in peace. And also I do believe that the zoo is not there to blame, but, the zoo can actually do more, instead of putting Collin all around everywhere, maybe they can put signs each and every cages, saying we do not want you to feed them, your food is not proper for them, it could kill them. And also the massive media like what we are doing right now, is to our dear listeners stop feeding animals when you are in a zoo, it’s not good for them. Bob: And I think the message, which, if you put Collin right there at the gate. The message is, hey, (Ryan: living Collin or dead Collin?)dead Collin at the gate, I mean the problem with this, is that, basically saying, Look, it doesn’t really matter, because actually Collin is still with us, he is still help us, he is still working here at the zoo, he is fine, you know, he can still entertain us all. I just think it sort of sends out the wrong message when you take this poor little animal and stick him right at the gate.

Heyang: He likes spices and she like sweets. He eats noodles all the time, whilst she wants rice as the staple food. Can this couple reconcile their difference and stay happy together? Apparently, different eating habits can be a deal breaker for some couples. Oh, what’s going on here? Is that true?Hongling: Yeah, it can be true for some couples, cause China is a really big country and we can say that there are seven main as of language, there are seven main Chinese dialects in the country. So it is not hard to imagine that even in the same country, people from different regions are facing so many differences in many fields, including your eating habits. So I’d like to name this specific couple, a girl grows up in a coastal city, while her boyfriend grows up in an inland city. So basically they have completely different eating habits, at the end of this sad story, they did break up. The boy saying is “She is nice girl, but in terms of eating habit, she is a barbarian, and I cannot accept it.”Heyang: Oh discriminatory, I don't like that. Hongling: I don't like that, and I don't believe in it. I believe in love, and I do think even though you are having different eating habits, you can always find your way of solving it. You can sometimes open your mind, try a little bit of others, and then you will have a happy marriage, and maybe brought in your eating habit. Ryan: Wow, wow, wow. Ok, so yes, I believe in love too, but at the same time, you date for a while, or hopefully for a while, it’s not like a week and you’re like: ‘I’m in love, I love you. Anyway, so over that time of dating right, you get to know each other, and it could be something as simple. I agree I think it’s pretty silly to break up with someone based off whether they like spicy food or something like that. But I painted it in a different way when I look at this. Let’s say, something that means a lot to me is my diet, and I try to eat healthy. Yeah I’m dating a girl that doesn’t care about eating healthy, and we are living together, and often when we decide to go out to dinner, we have this fight. I wanna go to X, she wants to go to Y. But, my health, and eating, right, which is often just very important to your health. Um those things could create that friction in a relationship that would be that catalyst for breaking up. So eating can be important, um anything. We say in the west all the time, it’s the small things that make the big difference in a relationship. And I think this is one of those things. You know at first you are looking at eating habits and you are saying: “Oh it’s not a big deal, but actually it’s kind of is. And I’m not saying that you have to eat the same food. I think it’s really cute my sister and her husband, I think you know he is a sushi eater, but she doesn't really like fish, but she’ll try it for him because she loves him. (NHL:Yes!) And that’s such a cute testament of how much she cares about him. But at the same time too, I know they’ll both decide, ‘Hey, we are going to eat really healthy, we are going stay healthy, we are going to keep a lean diet.’ They did it right before their wedding, so they could take really great pictures, and they were their support system, and it worked out so well. But I think if one of them wasn't on that same page, you might see some fights, some more friction and who knows, possibly a break up. Heyang: Oh, and there’s one thing that I picked out from that little speech there, is actually completely off point. But there’s something I find very comforting and I think all young people or newlyweds they share is that they all go on a diet before taking the wedding photos. That is universal and is comforting for my heart! According to what Ryan just said, you know lovely story. I think it shows that first of all, eating habits, a difference in opinion and that department shows that you have different habits, different life styles maybe, and you have a difference in the way you think, the way you look at your life.(Ryan: Absolutely) But when two individuals who are not family, and they come together, you are kind of molding yourself into ways that fits the other person, and are you willing to do that? And how far willing are you to agree to go down that path. I think that is if you can manage to go down that path together, then it will work. Ryan: You know I have a question for Niuhongling, because she’s from ShanXi and noodles are big there. If you had a boyfriend that hated noodles, would that be a problem? Hongling: No, it won’t be a problem. I will have all the noodles. I will be so happy, because whatever I go, I can have noodle, he can have whatever there is. And that’s my way of solving the problem, and also I’m not judging you because you will break up with a girl because she does not like your diet thing. I will not judge you, but I think it’s a matter of your own choice, how much you love the girl, how much you value your eating habit. It’s not right from wrong; it’s just something you choose to do.Ryan: Love is one thing, support is another, and I think it’s ok to have one person that likes an unhealthy diet, and one person likes a healthy diet. But to find the support for both of you supporting each other with such fundamental differences, I think it’s easier to speak those words and say it’s easy, but when you are actually in that relationship, it is pretty difficult. Heyang: Yeah, it can be difficult, but yes I am a very optimistic person when it comes to love, and yes I think maybe if you make that compromise in eating, let’s say the girl says “Yeah, I will give in to noodles three days a week”, something like that. And if the guy can maybe clean the bathroom every time after he uses it, then that’s a compromise (Hongling: that a good deal). Yeah, and you know we want this to work, we want it to work, so let’s make it work, we are adults, we can do it.

Heyang: A 16-year-old British teenager has made more 64 thousand US Dollars from a website she made to give Chinese babies English names. What is the business model?Ryan: Oh My Lady Gaga, let me tell you all about it! Beau Jessup, a British A-level student from Gloucestershire, came up with the idea after a family visit to China. They were out for a meal with friends when she was asked to give an English name to a newborn baby. Her website which she has now is titled 'Special Name', in which she assigned personality traits to each English name. Users are charged 60 pence or one USD to use the five-minute service, to ask users to pick five of 12 personality traits which they hope their baby will display, before it presents a shortlist of three names. It also provides examples of famous people with the same name. So basically, you get the idea, this lady is helping people choose their names. Now, when I look at this, I think it’s ridiculous, (Heyang: Why is it ridiculous? There is a need.) You need not to be lazy people, I mean even like parents in the US, we use baby books, like I know my father picked my name because he wanted to get in touch with his roots. So Ryan is I believe Irish or could be Welsh, and then every male in our family, our middle name is William. You know William is always present in one of our names, either the middle or the first name. So I mean the thing is picking a name should be your thing that you share with your child, that special connection that you gave to them. Now Beau Jessup from Gloucestershire, England, and you know I just think it’s a little ridiculous, but at the same time, some parents in China have picked names like Rolex, oh…Heyang: I had a classmate called Ferrari in the UK, and he’s from Hong Kong. For some reason, I thought it fitted him pretty well! I remembered one day the teacher announced that this person is late again, and terrible grades, Ferrari! And then the whole hall of people…filled with laughter. Yuyang: I don’t know, some Chinese parents choose some funny and weird names. It’s not lazy, I think it’s just they don’t know the proper cultural meaning behind the name. They choose name like Willow and Stone, Candy or Love.Ryan: But at the same time, why won’t you research, why would you just kind of carelessly say ‘Ok, Stone, cause I like stones, big stones are good, so let’s name it stone.”Heyang: Oh Ryan, let me fill you in on this. Chinese parents don’t… I mean they pay a lot of attention, or the individual pays a lot of attention into the English name that they wanna hold (Ryan: apple, banana), and with Stone, probably because (Happiness) his Chinese name has got the name of “Stone” in it. And then I know a girl who’s English name is Pearl, it’s because her Chinese name is ‘ZhenZhu”.Ryan: But I think actually Pearl is actually you’d see some people with that English name. Heyang: But she wouldn’t know that connotation that attached to that English name if she’s from a different culture. Ryan: Well I thought about these guys, you know it’s like how can I judge this without giving my two cents, and people judging me for the names that I would choose for my kids. And you know I thought of some names, and here’s for the males, and you ladies can totally criticize me ok? And our listeners. But I chose Conor, cause it’s like a very Welsh I think, around that area. Roran, I really like Roran. Kale, that’s a strong name. For ladies, if I had a daughter, I would name her Madeline, I think it’s a very beautiful name, or Dominique. So those are my two cents instead of some of the other names, you know like we have mentioned, like Happiness, Smile, Banana, Love. Heyang: Woo, or Precious! Yuyang: Woo, it offers me some inspiration as well. Maybe we should set up some Chinese naming website to help foreigners get Chinese names. So Ryan Price, do you want a Chinese name? I can find a much better name than “莱恩 普瑞斯”, if you give me ten yuan. (Heyang: Only for ten yuan? You should totally sign up!), no as the starting point of business. Ryan: You know, she’s making a really good point here Yuyang, you have pointed out something I was thinking about when I was looking at this. (Is) you know there’s very creative ways that people have yet to find to make money. I mean this girl made 64000 US dollars which she will use to her college. Even then, she’ll be going to a really good college, cause that’s a lot of money to be paying for your education. But still, with something as so simple as giving a name in a…What was it? A five minute process or something like that? I think it’s very impressive and creative how people can find ways to make money nowadays. It’s my two cents here. Yuyang: It’s quite inspirational you know, the girl just wanted to do it, just to see if an idea could turn into something more than just a simple idea, and to become more than just a small project. It’s a nice surprise it turns out. Heyang: Yeah all of that can be done in a website and connecting people from two completely different continents. And actually it’s filling a demand that is very real for today’s Chinese people. Because for various reasons, people want that English name. But I’d say, my Chinese name (Ryan: Candy?) is Heyang, and I’m very proud of that.

He Yang:Olympic swimmer Fu Yuanhui has become an Internet sensation after a post-match poolside televised interview on August the 8th. You must have come across the millions of memes that features her animated facial expressions. This morning, she’s won the bronze in women’s 100-meter backstroke in Rio, the Olympics. Yes! Guys, tell me more about this lady first, cause she was virtually obscure. No one knew her name until two days ago.Ryan:Right, so Miss Fu, the 20-year old athlete, posted a time of 58.95 seconds in the women's 100-meter backstroke semifinal at the Rio Olympics. Fu told the CCTV reporter when she was informed of her result with surprise and delight. " Huh?! 58,95 ? ! I thought I did 59 seconds! Wow! Am I so fast? I'm pretty satisfied." And what a remark saying that so cute. She also said, you’ll have to do the translation for me here, He Yang, but in English "I have used enough power to destroy the world."He Yang:Wow, she is like the mighty God. Yeah, she is that to me right now and her original words were 我用了洪荒之力. Wow, that sounds really powerful.Fang Zhou:You know in today’s morning show, we actually spend a long time discussing the right and proper translation for 洪荒之力.He Yang:We’re just getting ready for roundtable. Slap in the face.Fang Zhou:You know 洪荒 literally means a reference to a really historical a period of time, you know, ancient period of time, long time ago.Ryan:Flood, correct.Fang Zhou:Yeah, that’s true. So my former colleague at CCTV, they have presented one translation says I have been utilizing prehistorical power.He Yang:Yeah. I think our translation just one-upped that one. Roundtable rules and rocks.Fang Zhou:But just wait and see there are many different translations from our listeners. In the morning show, which was really really fun, one says the chaos energy.Ryan:The chaos energy.Fang Zhou:Primeval energy, primeval force and power of Chinese gods.He Yang:Yeah, that’s colorful.Fang Zhou:Yeah, it’s true and I think I have used enough power to destroy the world. That sentence says it all. Roundtable rules, I agree.Ryan:It’s a very strong sentence. I’m right there with you guys. But what I really liked was when asked if she had high expectations for the finals, Fu answered with a bright smile “ Not at all, I am already very satisfied with my results”. And I love that, because you know what the point of playing sports isn’t just to win. It’s to have fun and be a good sport and sportsmanship makes sports fun for everybody who’s playing it. And you know apparently people agree with me, guys, because Fu’s followers on Weibo have surged from 56,000 to more than 2 million. So other people agree with me. She’s obviously in the spotlight right now. Maybe you guyscan talk more about why she’s got so many Weibo followers.He Yang:Yeah, why is she so popular? She totally stole the thunder from Wu Minxia, she’s an awesome athlete as well. She’s just collected her fifth and I think she probably will collect some more in the very near future. And there is Sunyang, who’s also an awesome athlete, gold medalist, just this morning, I think. He did it again. But people’s hearts go to this lovely girl that people don’t even care if she gets a medal or not, I think, after she’s entered the final. And that is so new and different. The public mood that I’m getting right now. And Ryan, I think you make a really good point that sports is not about to be wining what. That’s not what we used to think for sure.Ryan:You know, also I think this is a specific case that I think is really interesting. You know when we think of Olympic sports, we don’t think the actual individuals that are doing this or they’re playing a sport. Many times we think the countries, like, oh, it’s China verse, you know the US verse, England verse, Russia verse. All these different countries swimming in the pool. Yet, when we see them on the individual level and when we see that there’s more to themthan just, you know, that swimmer, but they have their personality. Once we get to see that, we can see that they’re just like us. We can relate to them and love them, just like we love our friends, just like we love our family. And so, you know, looking at this meme of this really awesome swimmer. She’s an awesome swimmer, but acting just like everyday person. Who can’t relate to that and who wouldn’t love it? That’s what I’m saying.Fang Zhou:Yeah, I totally agree with Ryan on this case. I think Fu’s image is one hundred percent against the stereotypical image of an athlete, especially in China. Think aboutit. If you are an athlete that represents your country at the Olympic games, you are interviewed by the national television network, it adds a lot of pressure and you must be serious. I mean that’s huge. You’re representing your country and you will be all of the places in your country on TV. I guess that’s what makes so much pressure on those athletes. And what I love Fu Yuanhui’s best is also that she acts just like normal 20-year old girl. And what I love the best of her comments is that “ I’m already very satisfied with this result”. She didn’t say if she had any expectations on the finals the next day. But with that line, I definitely know that she’s gonna give her best in the next day’s final. And that’s the best explanation of sportsmanship at Olympic games. You know, just give your best every time and just don’t think about the competetions, don’t think about the trash talks or just succeeding like you did last time with a better result. You just do it and give a lot you can. That’s what we enjoy the most on the pitch, in the pool.Ryan:Exactly. This is once in a lifetime thing, you are one of the few, the chosen, to compete for your country and games that unite us all, like what an honor. So everybody is a winner, in my opinion. And I think it’s also so cool she’s now known as the comedian of the swimming profession. But when asked why she got the bronze in the 100 meter backstroke. You know sayingthings like, “ Oh, because my arms are too short”. I think that’s funny and you know that proves she’s got a sense of humor. She didn’t take this lost personally. She just take it as you know like “ oh, I’m happy to be here and I’m gonna make a joke. And everybody likes people like that. That don’t take life so seriously, but can learn to enjoy it, even when you are not with on top.He Yang:That is so true, Ryan, and so many of us, Chinese people, we want that, we want that care-free spirit, we want that we are among the best inwhat we do and we can laugh at our wins and loses, but so rare is that actually done in real life, so I think when people see that this Olympic bronze’s winner now can do that in front of the camera and you can tell that she’s not acting, you know, it’s all natural. That is like a breath of fresh air and I remember throughout those years when I watching the Olympics, when a Chinese athlete managed to get the gold medal and the way they react in front of the camera always thought…..FangZhou:I did this for my country.He Yang:Ok, I did this for my country, thank my coaches, the party, my government and my country again and that’s pretty much it. I used to think they are like robots, they are not like everyday people. And then there is just tad of sadness that invades my heart, because I feel this is not a real person. Why are they reacting like that in front of the camera. There must be other reasons why they are acting this way and the more you think about that, (that greatenly ) saddens me as I grow older to understand this system a bit more. But here, look at Fu Yuanhui. Look at her and I think every generation needs our ownheroes. And in 2004, when Liu Xiang broke the world record with what he does best. I think that energized the nation and it fulfilled that nationalistic greedthat people needed at that time. And in 2008, when Beijing held the Olympic games, I think it was, maybe the highlight of modern China and history.Fang Zhou:Yeah, it was a collective presentation.He Yang:Exactly. And then I think people have had that peak time. Now, maybe it’s a good thing that we are becoming more in touch with our human side of things. It’s this girl that she’s giving all she can into a game. And she’s doing it with that bright smile. Well done to you, Fu Yuanhui. And I think you are the idol of this era.

He Yang:Fanfiction or 同人小说 is when someone takes either the story or characters of a certain piece of work, whether it is a novel, TV show, movie, and just creates their own story based on it. It is often inspired by fans who feel that the plot is incomplete or just want to see a happy ending between their favorite characters. Why is fanfiction so popular in China? Niu Honglin: Well, according to some writers that the reason they write fanfiction is purely from the love and a feeling of regret for the characters. Basically, people are starting to read or see some TV show, movie, et cetra and they feel like they want to see more, they want to know more about the beloved character. And that is sometimes when they step in and make their own plot here. And Jin Jiang Wen Xue Cheng is a popular fanfiction site for probably female audiences more likely. And it hosts a third Authors’ Forum on anniversary this year and hundreds of authors are coming from different parts of the nation to attend this meaningful event to meet and greet their fans. And those authors includes those that write fanfiction, maybe only fanfiction.Ryan:You know I get this, ok, I do, guys. Although I’m not, I don’t know.He Yang:Do you? Are you too cool us, Ryan? Niu Honglin and I He Yang, we’ve read these thingsRyan:Alright. Can I finish?He Yang:Sure, go ahead, sorry to intrudeRyan:Harry Potter, alright, I’m not following this whole Voldemort Harry Potter, Ithink that’s some weird stuff going on. But hey, if it floats your boat, I don’t judge. But one thing that always starts honestly should have happened and aroad, I would like to be seentaken is Harry Potter and Hermione, dude, I want to see them get together. I thought, even J.K. Rowling, I believe that she had commented after finishing these series that it was a mistake to have Harry and Ginny end up together. And actually she would rather head it the other way around with Harry and Hermione. So I can see how the allureof fanfiction could come into play here. But also I can see the problems with copyright, guys, because sometimes, this is somebody else’s intellectual property. It wouldn’t have come to fruition, if J.K. Rowling had it thought of the universe Harry Potter. So I think, A. if you make money off this, you need to at least pay some kind of royalty and have an agreement with that person, you created this universe or otherwise just offer for free. That’s my twocents.Niu Honglin:Yeah, there are some fanfictions that they use characters from other novel and they started to have their own story in the completely different time and different place and when the story is very popular,they started to make it, make it to change the name of the character and publish the story. I’m talking about 50 Shades of Grey here.Ryan:You mean 50 Shades of Gross.He Yang:Ok. Some of the stuffs is a little bit off limitsNiu Honglin:I’m not promoting or against anything, I’m just trying to say that 50 Shades of Grey is originally a fanfiction from the Twiliight series. So you can see that some of the fanfictions are actually what you have said they use the same universe, they’re using the same characters to develop different kind of story. But it is possible that they just, because their love for the characters are too huge that they just using the character to start another story.He Yang:Yeah, I can totally relate tothat character pairing is the technical phrase for it and it is the most essential part of fanfiction that gets all the fans, like I have said in Slam Dunk, Liu Chuanfeng has to be paired with Xian Daozhang.Niu Honglin:I can totally see that it’s justso hot.He Yang:Exactly. He does not belong to any girl.Niu Honglin:No, no, no, no.He Yang:So is that a kind of passion that I think fans get so much fun reading from another fan, that’s writingthis, answering to our desires.Ryan:I get vibe that this has a very big like desire and people really, girls seem to really like this for the pairing possibilities.He Yang:Don’t gender stereotypeRyan:Ok, fine. But I mean you just mentioned 50 Shades of Gray and Twilight. Ok. Fist of all, I will admit, I have seen Twilight, ok, with guy friends in a movie theater. Ok, I’m not proud of it, but I had to see whatall the rage was about. Ok, yes. But I think I only saw the first two, but I never seen 50 Shades of Gray. I know my mom and my sister love it and talk about it for hours, but at the same time I have heard what it’s about and it’s not for me, so I can’t, definitely can’t tell if the two are related, cause I don’t know them well enough. But if people are getting so much enjoyment out of it, is it such a bad thing? That’s my question.He Yang:It can’t be a bad thing.Ryan:It can’t be a bad thing. 50 Shades of Gross, come on, people love it.Niu Honglin:Ok, about the thing you have mentioned about, a copy issue everything. I’d like to say that it is actually a fact that most of the fanfiction writers don’t get paid or publish their works. They’re just doing this, sometimes from pure love. But if it got really popular, I do think there should be a standardized procedure that allows you to discuss with your original writer and talk about things, make arrangement, make deal out of somewhere to make sure you’re getting paid in a good way. Ryan:Yeah, I think if you are writing a good fanfiction and offering it for free. Eventually, you know you’ll get following and then wants you write an original content, maybe you could make money off of that. So I think it’s a good way to begin as an author.He Yang:Yeah and we have seen there some successful examples of fanfiction writers become real writers and understand there’s a lot of junk out there. But when it’s free, that’s what you get and also that is, I think the beauty of the Internet that anybody could technically, I mean publish online, but whether you be able to gain that huge group of followers and capitalized on that, it takes a lot more work and also get the legal issues sortedout before hand.

Heyang: Apparently, girls love shopping. But boys don't necessarily. Dragging a reluctant man with you can diminish the pleasure of shopping. It can be suffering for the man as well. A so-called "Husband storage" might be a solution to this dilemma as some shopping malls are offering the service right now here in China. Tell me a little bit more about storage of the man.Ryan: Absolutely, because we men are offended, ok? We are offended that you will store us and I am proposing girlfriends storage for when guys want to play video games with their buddies and the girlfriend doesn't want to play video games with the buddies, so you store your girlfriend somewhere.Bob: This is warfare. This is war of the sexes. You are breaking up before our eyes. Ryan: But let me talk about what is actually happening in the mall in Fuzhou that is getting famous online because a literally husband cloakroom. It's a place for men can sit down take a little rest, read books, look magazines, in charge mobile phone, free WiFi is available and so basically this is getting a lot of hype, some of the ladies really like this kind of romanticism of them being able to shop and not have their boyfriend trail behind me like "Are we done yet?" "Are we done?" And they can be as free as they want while the guy does his WiFi and whatever he wants to do in a room with other guys. Heyang: Yeah, Ryan, I cannot believe that you think this is girls just ditching their beloved significant other, and so she can enjoy her shopping. It's not about that at all. It's about thinking for your significant other. Do you honestly wanna be dragged around looking at shoes and dresses? We are sparing you time and honoring your wishes, so you can look at your phone which you really wanna do and not the pretty dress I'm right now.Ryan: You know what? I disagree. I would love to go around with my girlfriend in do shopping and tell her what I think looks good and have a say on maybe some of the wardrobes she picks. And at the same time, I'm realizing that guy at least in the relationship when you working the nine to five Monday through Friday. When you go out on the weekend, that's your time to spend time together, quality time and even when she's shopping and even when you are shopping, you can be talking and catching up on all these the gossip or whatever happening at work, just sharing those moments together that you don't get throughout the week. That's my personal view on it. I think it is kind of things promote and I was just talking to a friend about it the other day, promotes this kind of weird phenomenon that's happening now. You go to a restaurant, you see two, a couple sitting down and instead of enjoying each other's accompany, they are enjoying their mobile phone and they are doing things, they just eating in complete silence. When I see that, what I told my friends was why go out to dinner, why even being in a relationship. I feel like relationships are enjoying each other's accompany. I believe something like this promotes kind like "ok, I am done with you, I am gonna use like money and go buy stuff and when I need that, you can come to me and buy my stuff." Bob: I feel as I am intruding on a private argument, but going back to, I sort of want to know, do women really care what their husbands or boyfriends think of the dress that they are going to buy and do the men in those relationships, do they really have an opinion? I think this is the big problem. Is it worth having your husband or boyfriend with you while trying to buy something which is really crucial. Heyang: I'm so glad you ask that question, Bob.Ryan: Dang-it, Bob.Bob: I want more money, pay me!Heyang: I thought I was the one that's gonna get the extra cash after the show from Bob and now maybe the table has turned. Yes, that is a very valid question and look at the designers, there usually homosexual manner or women and these are the people understand what looks good on women. Bob: So you need to take your best gay friend with you.Heyang: If you have a gay bestie, then yeah, he is a god send gift to you and what about your straight boyfriend or husband? Do they understand fashion? Do they understand what looks good on woman? I have some serious doubts. So basically it depends on who you are dressing up for?Ryan: No, but we understand. I got chip in for my fellow guys out there. No, but we understand that we love you and we wanna spend time with you. Being a girlfriend and sometimes that means not with doing which you wanna do, in which case that could be the guy playing video games and the girl doing something like shopping. Relationship are give and takes and I think this kind promotes some weird compromises, spend time with your loved one, even when they are not doing something you necessarily are excited about. Suck it up!Bob: I think, can I put my psychology hat on here? Can I? Very serious. Do you think you like it? It's very me. I think that's, one of the problems here is why are people staying closely, so closely together? And it might be, because the lady in this relationship wants to keep on an eye on the man to make sure, you know, he may have gone to the husband cloakroom and he maybe playing video games, who knows? Ryan: They need had a camera system so you can watch your husband as you shop.Bob: You need to be able to monitor exactly where he is, because as soon as the lady goes to choose the dress, the husband's left the husband's cloakroom and he is going to do something more interesting.Ryan: That's enough out of you, Bob.Bob: I just know your secrets.Ryan: But might you know, one of the netizens say why would the boyfriends even, why would they just stay home and I take that step further. Why you are in a relationship? If you are not spending time together doing something she likes to do, then I think this is a serious problem in your relationship. She should be doing some of the things you're interested in, you should be doing somethings she is interested in. I think it's healthy compromise in a relationship. That's what I'm saying.Heyang: Yes, but you're sharing a life together, you're sharing a lifetime together, there's plenty of time to do stuff together.Bob: And choosing a dress can feel like a lifetime.Heyang: Says the man in the room and that's exactly why we wanna leave you in the storage or at home.Ryan: Jesus, low blow, low blow.Bob: That's it. You cross the line.Heyang: Oh, dear! Our wechat listeners have so much to say about this. There're a few guys that are saying I would love to be in that storage with wifi. And being dragged around when you need to tell the lady whether she looks good or not and they always look the same. Thank you guys for telling the truth.

【感谢热心听友“张惠云”帮忙听写本篇文稿！正确率很高哦~】HY: The newly opened Shenzhen metro line 11 seeks mark contrasts between economy class and business class in terms of passenger flow. The business class subway price costs 3 times more than the norm. This has triggered heated public debate on equality and social stratification. Guys, tell me more about this business class carriage first in Shenzhen.YY: The Shenzhen Metro Line 11 was launched on June 28 this year. It was the first subway line in China that offers business class carriages to passengers. Ok the proportion is like this, there are total 8 carriage of its subway train, 6 are economy class carriages with normal prices, and the rest 2 are the business class carriages, which we are going to talk about today. As we all know, like bullet trains or airplanes, space in the business class carriages is much larger and there is also space for putting bags above passengers’ head. It is the same case with this business class carriage in Shenzhen subway line 11. And the price is, of course, accordingly, more expensive than normal ones. It’s three times of that for economy classes. However not many people are using it. There are very few people sitting in the business class, and it’s still very crowd in the economy class. So it is triggering heated debate.Ryan: You know, first of all, I love it * 5. There is a couple of things that need to be said here. This was actually announced by the municipal government four years ago, that this would be happening, that a business class would be set up. So uh these people are there getting upset. They knew four years ago that this was the plan. Another thing to keep in the mind is this subway, as I understand, is also an airport express line. So let’s look at Beijing, if you take the airport express line, how much is it guys, it’s 25 you know, yuan. So it’s more expensive if you wanna go to the airport in multiple places, not just in this scenario. And you know what, in every portion or part of our society, whether be airplanes or, not even travel-related things, restaurants, there is this VIP, there is this part of something in services where you can get extra. And I think that’s ok, you know I personally think so. But what do you think yuyang?YY: I think it’s offering people more choice, it is a good thing because there’re some people who have extra needs like old people, like pregnant woman, or people who taking babies…HY: And they need to pay more? Shouldn’t they automatically get a seat?YY: They should pay more for the better service. And yeah, it is a good thing to people offered with diversified services.HY: Oh I can’t argue against that, Yuyang. That is really taking words out of my mouth but I can argue against Ryan Price because… correct me if I am wrong, our dear listeners coz I’ve only got this of Weibo according to some people from Shenzhen, they say with this new line yes you can say that there supposed to be airport express way of subway. But actually it’s not. In Beijing, with the express subway going to the airport, you only have three stops. But what was going on in Shenzhen, the so called express subway, this carriage line we are talking about right now, is stops at like 10. So you haven’t even gotten the express service maybe you’re paying extra for. But you’re paying for those more spacious seats. And that’s my question, shouldn’t the subway be a public good. That is a kind of public service, that whoever, as a citizen of this country, or of that city had pay tax to should get that service equally.Ryan: Then explain the Beijing airport line, why is it 25 RMB if it’s a public service. Why is it so expensive? It still does have two stops before you get to the airport. HY: Because it’s made with different kind of material, it’s a different kind of variation of the subway. So I think cost is more expensive and everybody is paying the same. Ryan: Right, it only make sense to me that if I am getting on a subway that has more stops than this Beijing stop. Paying that amount of money and sitting comfortably for a longer period of time. That make sense to me because the subway ride is long. And you said that this the Beijing subway only has two stops. But it’s actually in a ground scheme of things of a very long distance to travel. You’re still be time wise in there for a while. And this built to be more comfortable. So I can understand how part only two cars of a total of 8 cars is made for those people who have to sit there for longer, and have luggage and need that extra room because maybe they are going to be traveling. So you only have two cars that made for those people that probably going to the airport, the rest are for those people has been getting off stops on their way so it make senses to me.YY: Yeah sometimes the separation of functions is more efficient for the public transporters. I can see the one point of the controversy, is that this kind of business carriages are built to use the public money and now it’s serving a limited amount of passengers who are willing to pay more. So people are not comfortable with this. So some people are questioning that why aren’t those money put into areas which can serve all instead of serve a number of privilege.YY: Yeah it’s takes longer time so people choose the quicker way. They enjoy pre-service.

Heyang: A photo showing actor and Beijing-native Ge You slouching on a sofa has gone viral. That posture has been nicknamed "The Beijing Slouch." Now 4 younger male celebrities have inherited the mantel and have been crowned the 4 slouchers of the capital. What is the Beijing slouch? Why do Beijingers proudly proclaim it is ours?YuYang: I guess many people have watched the "Wo Ai Wo Jia". The photo was a snapshot from "Wo Ai Wo Jia", literally meaning "I Love My Family". It's one of the oldest and most famous sitcoms in China. In this picture Ge You, was always seen slouching on the sofa and had not sat up straight once. At first, the posture was called Ge You lying, later people started to call it Beijing slouch since it's a very typical posture for Beijing natives and the photo soon gained huge popularity during the weekend. A lot of people posted photo shopped versions of the picture like Ge You dressing like the American captain, or Spiderman while doing the posture. It also became a popular meme with words like "I know I am wasting my life but I just don't want to stop." It's very interesting while Heyang, as a Beijinger, can you show people how do you do a proper Beijing slouch. Heyang: Thank you for directing that question to me.YuYang: Many people would be interested.Heyang: Well, when it comes to the Beijing slouch, it's very…Ryan: Technical.Heyang: Yeah, because you have to hear me out here. It's about you're sitting there but as if you have no bone in your body and can you imagine how comfortable that is. And also it is not just 1 posture, it is a process. So, basically what you do is you sit down on a chair or on a sofa and then you sort of just lay back, and then here comes the process: you are sliding down the sofa but your back clings to the end of the chair in 120 degrees to 180 degrees. I think that is the technical side of things and you better get it right to qualify the Beijing slouch. That is what I think and also here can I please abuse my position a little bit. I am so sorry about it, but I have to do it. Listen up everyone, you have to use the Beijing slang to describe this that is: "从椅子上出溜下去". That is when you slide down and you glide down and that is what the Beijing slouch is and I think it shows a lot of attitude, it could be 3rd world war out there but I don't give a damn.Ryan: You know, looking at this, I'm going to say something that maybe Heyang won't like here that…Heyang: What is it Ryan? Be nice.Ryan: First of all, I love Beijing, I do but to call this the Beijing slouch, I think I have been doing this slouch my whole life. When I get on a couch, especially when its comfy, I first sit on the chair or sofa then after I have secured my comfiness I decide that I want to accelerate my comfiness level, so then I slowly slouch on the sofa till my shoulders are basically almost touching the back and I make the nice little triangle that you have with your Beijing slouch. So, I am just saying guys I think this is also a slouch that is done everywhere around the world by tons of people looking to be very comfy on their couch.Heyang: Ok, could be true but I beg to differ, Ryan. Because can you make sure it's the 120 to 180 degree slouch?Ryan: Can you make sure?Heyang: Oh yeah, with my fabulous abs, I can make it whatever degree and also you know what's really essential here, that is when you are maintaining the slouch, it is pretty good exercise to the abs. Also when you finish the slouch, you need to bounce up, that's like Beijing style, bounce up effortlessly like a spring or when some guys mess it up they need to put their hand on the ground for a little support to bounce up. That's not called bounce up, that is just struggling. That doesn't qualified.Ryan: Please stay tuned for Heyang's workout video called Slouch in the Abs out. YuYang: I see you guys are both trying so hard to establish your own brands right? Heyang's slouching style and Ryan's slouching style. Actually there are the Beijing 4 slouchers of the capital. Celebrities are trying hard to establish their own brands. Netizens also found 4 famous celebrities, most born in Beijing as the top 4 Beijing slouchers who gave the best demonstrations of the posture. One is Walkie Zhang (Da Zhang Wei), he was an actor, singer, and host born in Beijing, many photos showing him slouching him on sofa or chair. It looks like he wants to show that he's a genuine Beijinger. In a TV show named: "I Go To School", he even slouches down between chairs and desks in the decorated classroom.Ryan: There's many photos of me in school slouching folks well before I got on this show but let's talk about the history of the so-called Beijing slouch. The posture can date back to the Qing Dynasty (1636-1912), in case you didn't know. The Manchu people loved to lie down on the heated brick bed after dinner even including the emperor. It is said that Emperor Qianlong loved to slouch down after dinner read books and write calligraphy. Now, that sounds really nice. I think I would be doing that, and that's why I think I have done that. It's because I think slouching is one of those human necessities we have all done but I do think it's cool that people are really enjoying this here in Beijing. It does definitely have a cultural aspect to it. I am just saying guys, everybody slouches. Yu Yang: People say this slouching posture of the Qing Dynasty with Emperor Qianlong is related to his long-life. He died at 88 years old. He was regarded as the longevity emperor in the Chinese history. People say he knew how to keep himself healthy like he always took the unprotected sleep called回笼觉. Maybe the slouching always makes him feel comfortable and relaxed after long working hours. Heyang: Interesting. But I still think that the Beijing slouch we're talking about today, the type that I have described…Ryan: 120 degree angle!Heyang: Yeah. You have to get the angle right, you know and I don't think it's the same as what the emperors used to do because I don't think they're practically flat on their heated brick beds. I don't think that is the situation at all. Actually, they have a lot of support on their back so it is slouching more like half-way what we're talking about in the contemporary sense. Maybe I've given it too much thought but I think this is an interesting way to see what the Beijing local culture is about.Ryan: Maybe, just maybe, the slouching culture has evolved and especially here in Beijing to perfect the slouch to a 120 degree angle for optimal comfort on the couch. I saw a picture of the guy that's known for the Beijing slouch, and he does look so comfortable.Heyang: There's one thing I think that I do share with Da Zhang Wei. Is he a member of the 4 slouchers of the capital? Our internet users are just so intelligent and clever. I do admire you guys so much. The part that I share with Da Zhang Wei is that yeah things evolve, technology develops. Now, everybody pretty much has a laptop and I'm a busy person, a hard worker. There are a lot of things I want to do on my laptop even in my free time that could be work-related or not. What I do? I slouch and I use my fabulous abs as a table or a desk and I put on my laptop on there and as I do stuff so yes I think the Beijing slouch has many facets to it and now it's multi-functional. Yu Yang: Is it a good way to train your abs. That's a pretty creative way, I guess.Heyang: If you want fabulous abs, I think I have some authority in it. I can only say that the slouch is conducive but it doesn't determine your abs. So if you really do want those defined abs, maybe you should follow a class that maybe I will teach in the future. Yu Yang: Wow. That's very interesting. I agree that it's a fabulous way to train your abs. It is the cultural symbol and it is also a nostalgic thing in Beijing Hutongs maybe during the hot summer time. You can see a lot of people, many old Beijingers slouched on enfolding bamboo chairs in the yard or on the Hutong streets using the big fan to keep them cool and drive mosquitos away while drinking some tea and talking to neighbors. That's a typical Beijing summer night in Hutong.Heyang: Why is it that so many of our parents especially our moms when they have been teaching us our manners as we grow up always say or often call us out and say: "Don't do that!" "Don't slouch"?Ryan: Well that's what I was going to say here is that you know you have painted this picture Heyang of like 6 pack ripped guys just slouching to the best shape of their life, but when I often see someone slouching, I often think they are lazy, not lazy but just careless, relaxing and hanging out or maybe just trying to beat the heat, not so much trying to get the 6 pack abs we all really want. You want what I mean! Also, guys I think that it's bad for your backbones and your posture overall. In fact, I was doing just a little research. Slouching often does increase your chances of back problems, i.e. scoliosis, arthritis and it also might give you that image of the "double chin" You're just so comfortable that you don't care how you look. The double chin's coming out.Heyang: I have an objection to that. Basically, yeah maybe you could be seen with the double chin, that could happen but also you create an imagery that is second to none. That is, it seems as if it's all legs below your neck. Try it out. You will see what I mean.

Heyang: Students at Hubei University of Technology have been asked to complete an unusual summer vacation assignment that is to write a confession letter to evaluate your relationship status. The title goes as: "Why are you still single?" So, what's going on?Ryan: Well, let me tell you all about this summer vacation homework. The topic is: "Why you are single" and so basically what the homework request is a personal analysis with 300 words including 5 strengths and 5 weaknesses of yourself inviting someone to start a romantic relationship with you and a love letter with 500 words to your current girlfriend or boyfriend if you have one and on top of all this guys, they are to post it on Weibo when they finish and do like a @your school counselor. This is not a joke but a real summer vacation homework for more than 300 students from Hubei University of Technology. Some students jokingly say that it is absurd calling it really hard for single dogs. It's killing them! Some netizens agree that it is bad others are thinking it's okay. Personally guys for me, this is weird and I think kind of unacceptable for a school project and on top of that shaming yourself, I don't know, I would feel weird putting my information about this specific part of my life on Weibo. Why I'm single?Niu Honglin: Yeah and what I'm trying to say is well by asking the question about why you're single, it feels like its wrong to be single. What's wrong to be single?Ryan: Well putHeyang: That's so weird.Ryan: They use the words: "still single" as if it is a problem.Niu Honglin: It's not nice and also, isn't it kind of a violation of personal privacy? I mean, maybe I choose to. Maybe I didn't find someone that I like, maybe the one pursuing me does not come to certain standards. It has a lot of reasons. You can't just say: Why you're still single? like why you are failing a test？ Why don't you have a job? It's not a nice question.Heyang: It's not a nice question. It feels its naturally discriminating people who are not in a relationship and also for people who are freshmen that just have finished their first year of university and as you migrated into your next year becoming a sophomore, that's an interesting time point to publish this online. There's a few things going on that I think are kind of interesting.Ryan: Well, before we throw her under the bus, let's understand why she, in her opinion assigned this homework assignment. So, basically she came up with the idea during a taxi trip while the driver was complaining that college students nowadays always blame others rather than themselves. Yue thinks this topic is related to students' lives and may help them realize their own problems. Yue was born in the 1980s; all of her students were born after 1995, so they're young. She said the attitudes about love for the two different generations. People of the young generations are more direct. They will speak their love in public or in their dormitory and though this behavior is brave, on the other hand, it's kind of maybe centric on yourself. I will say that I do think the younger generations due to social media and a lot of other things are becoming somewhat narcissistic. They think they're always the victims of certain problems and I attribute this especially to my generation, back in the states. But I think this is a universal thing, maybe you guys can clarify this specifically here in China. But, kids nowadays are quicker to blame others rather than take responsibility which we talk about all the time, people not taking responsibility for themselves. I think we're seeing less and less of that in these newer generations. Niu Honglin: I agree, maybe she meant well. Maybe, she's trying to make university students think about their own strengths and weaknesses but also to remind you, students who have a boyfriend or girlfriend also have to finish the homework but they have to do the article with a theme of: "How did I manage to get a boyfriend or girlfriend?" "What's bad or good I've done in a relationship?" It's kind of like they're the winners of life. They're sharing their experiences. I don't like that attitude. It's like they have this idea that being in a relationship is some kind of winning. I don't think it's a good concept. Ryan: Right. I think this promotes that you should be in a relationship. Why aren't you in one? Your life is incomplete. When I was their age, relationship was the last thing on my mind. I just wanted to have fun with my friends and was living on my own. I was so excited! I mean, granted of course, relationships are always a nice thing but these kids are young and they need the time to be young. To be asking such questions like: "Why are you still single?" I mean A) you're promoting that being single is a bad thing. I don't think that's healthy at all for the mindset and B) they're sharing this with everybody. What if some guys says well, maybe I'm not athletic enough and maybe blah blah blah when he's listing his weaknesses and his peers make fun of him. I don't think this is a good thing to promote. There's no amenity here. These people are posting this personal stuff about them on weibo for everybody to see, right?Heyang: Yeah, so that's the part I cannot agree with. I guard my privacy like I'm guarding the holy land. That's the kind of importance it is for me and in this day and age, I think I'd advise everybody to do that actually. Your personal information getting online means you will not have a chance to get it back to you. So, that's the first thing I want to say and also our Wechat listeners have very personal insights regarding this topic and our Wechat listener Xue has left us a mini essay on this and I think it's really interesting what she says. Xue, I hope this is okay with you but you didn't send us a private message, so I'm assuming it's alright. I'll leave out the parts that I think might be a little bit too sensitive for her. So basically she's saying that in high school, the last year of high school, she was madly in love with this boy and her parents and his parents were like Romeo and Juliet, split them up and said: "No way can you guys have a relationship". You have more important things to do in life and that is the Gao Kao. They listened to parent's advice, broke up, and both of them got to different universities and life is supposed to be better now. But actually she says, she's never managed to find another guy that she really likes in university and now, just in a matter of like two years or so, her parents are pressuring her: "You're in university and how come you don't have a boyfriend." That's like the biggest irony of everything and she's totally upset about it. But, what do you say about this kind of mentality? Prior 18 having a relationship is like the monster in life, then after you're 18, it's like, What? Suddenly, everything has changed, you have to be in a relationship and get married as soon as possible.Niu Honglin: Well, I do feel like Chinese parents have this certain feeling that the age of 18 or the landmark of entering a college is sort of like changing everything. Before that, they say: "on't talk to boys", "Don't have a boyfriend", "Do not do anything", and after that it's like, "Bring back your husband." It's not a life-changing night, maybe it's a life-changing test, but it's not in terms of everything. You cannot decide what you should do or what is okay to be done just over a test. We have to admit it's another period of your life but growing up is a constant process. Ryan: You know, when I'm a father, I will be consistent in that: "No boyfriends ever for my daughter." And that's just how it's always going to be. That's how I'll always feel. But, you know what to this specific scenario, I think the parents are warranted and that is because when you're 18, trust me, cause I've been 18, that was 10 years ago. I was a dramatically different person. I had feelings I didn't understand. I was growing, you grow so much in college and god even after that. So, I think yes it's so sad that you didn't get to spend that proper amount of time with someone you really had feelings for but at the same time I want to tell you that you will find that person out there. Just keep looking, be patient. Realize you're growing, that person is also growing and in amount of time, I'm sure you will bump into each other and things will all make sense. But I'm sorry to hear about the fighting between the Capulets and Montagues, I believe those were the two families of Romeo and Juliet and I hope that you find love as soon as it's appropriate. Heyang: I think that's a life-pursuit for me, I don't know but for people who want to have a real and fulfilling relationship, I think you should never stop trying to look for it. You need to look for it. I don't think it's going to fall on your lap if you're just eating potato chips and playing video games at home. But also, I think it's a delicate balance in the mind that if you're too desperate, that just drives good people away. It's about growing yourself stronger inside, keep looking, and I can't think of anything else right now. Ryan: I want to point out something else too. Yes, I actually agree with you Heyang. I think most people, a big part of life is looking for someone to spend it with, to do those things with, to make memories. It's a beautiful and magical thought when you think of spending your life with another soul, another human being and sharing things nobody else will know about in the world except you and your best friend. But you know what, you need to have patience for that. You also need to be yourself and be okay with being by yourself. I think that person comes when you're independent and when you're happy being by yourself. Because, then it's not like you need them, it's they complement you. It's like you didn't need anyone, but suddenly there's this person in your life that complements you. That's how I've always thought of it. But I think it is always so healthy for you to be confident being by yourself. I think this assignment is promoting an ideology of saying that it's not okay and that's not what a young person should be learning in college. They should be learning that it is okay to be yourself and feel good being yourself. Heyang: Wow. I almost wanted to cry listening to that, Ryan.Niu Honglin: It's just so well-said. Also maybe to perfect the homework, we can instead ask students to write about what kind of quality you want in your future partner and what kind of quality you hope to grow on yourself to find them. Maybe that would be a better article to write aboutHeyang: Also, write a personal letter or don't put it online. I hate it when that stuff is put online.

Ryan: Yea, you know even in Heyang's example, seventy percent is not one hundred percent. And I think that what we’ll find years down the line, because psychology is so interesting, I feel like it's something we don't know a whole lot about. Is that people this kind of stuff does sit on maybe a spectrum. I say this because I am looking at these signs, hopefully it's not my hypochondriac tendencies, but something that I actually see some merit in. Some of the signs I really identify with is one of them being you worry so much about getting interrupted. When you are working that you never start working at all. First thing that comes to my head is my thesis. When I was working on my thesis, I had to have exact conditions. I have to had earplugs. I could not have any things pulling me out of the studying that I was trying to do. And it made it hard, because I wouldn't start my project or my thesis under these wrong conditions. It had to be perfect conditions. So, it made my life really hard just to get something like a project, or more especially, my thesis done. Heyang: That is very interesting, Ryan! You are revealing so many sides of you to us. In comparison to you guys, I am just free as a bird. I do believe that if you are always going for, like one hundred percent, it is never going to be one hundred percent. But I have to say, I am really tenacious when I come to things that I care. For example, like this show, I get so mad when things don't meet my standard. And like with my line of work, when you care about it, then it is very hard to just let it loose. So, I think it is a kind of balance there. And I also think it is important for people not to be OCDs. But pursuing perfection in a way in your line of work because that is how advancement, social development is propelled!Ryan: While I don't think that perfectionists think perfect is attainable. I think they just cannot rest unless there is a certain standard is met. So, we see a term crash with the actual condition. But, you know in my conversation with people who are perfectionist, like my dad, I would consider him as a perfectionist, you know, yeah, it's tiring, it's work, but at the same time, to understand circumstances, you could say, I think it can be used in a way that can be a gift. I mean, think about it, someone who has a very clean place, clean life, and clean atmosphere. All that clutters that's normally making your life lag behind is gone. Those people don't have the deal with that, sure their setting a high standard, but often we find that people to live on a higher standards, have a much better quality of life.Heyang: Yea, maybe they are more successful as well. YuYang: Yea, perfectionism can be a good thing, as well as bad thing. It is totally up to you. And I have read some practical tips from some researches that are never take yourself too seriously. If you think you are a cup, you will work hard to fill a cup of water. When you think you are a lake, you have to find that much water to satisfy yourself. Sometimes, maybe keep your expectation a little bit lower and you will find your life is easier. Heyang: Yes, I think that is a good tip for perfectionist. And for OCD people, you should definitely go get professional help if that is needed. Because I think when it is a disorder, if you don't go seek professional help from a doctor, or psychologist sometimes, then I don’t think you can make your situation better.Ryan: You know I think it is interesting because a lot of people say psychologists and doctors, what not, in this area field maybe don't know that how much or how to treat it, they can identify it. For me, for my personal belief, when it comes to something like this, it would all mentally different. We'll find we all have certain problems and certain things that are good and bad. And you know I know that everybody has these differences in how to brain chemistry works. My deal is don't try to fight it because it is a battle you will never win. You will drive yourself crazy. If you try to fight, how your brain works? But I think the real thing you can do to help yourself is embrace it and make it work towards your advantage. Find the way not to fight it, but to work with it and steer it in a direction that really help your life or find ways to deal with it but the fact is sometime it's just how life is. But I think with a little bit of embracing yourself and not seeing it as necessarily a huge problem, but something that can help you, will help you overall in your life and especially being happy.YuYang: Oh yeah Ryan, that is so comforting. It's good to build capacity to tolerate a little bit of less control, and that makes life easier. Heyang: Yeah, and I feel these days, often the words perfectionist and also OCD has been used in such a loose way, that I think it's abused, that a lot of people when I look at you guys what you do and I think you have the audacity to say you are a perfectionist. You… what is wrong, and yeah. So I think a lot of the time people kind of use it as a joke or to describe a situation. But as much as a free-spirited person I am, I think a degree of pursuing perfection is very important for any society to move forward and that's the part that I admire of Japanese people because I see the painstaking attention to detail and to craftsmanship and to perfection. And those things I think sometimes is so necessary and is so essential to your success. That being said, but let's comfort the little OCDs out there and the real perfectionists out there. That nobody perfect is cool and nobody cool is perfect. So maybe perfection isn't the ultimate goal but it's making yourself better. Ryan: And there's no such thing has normal. Everybody is different; so don't ever feel bad about being who you are.

【特别感谢热心听友“Maggie 欣欣”帮忙听写本篇文稿】Heyang: Is learning English a long, boring and tedious process? The answer is probably yes for a lot of Chinese students. But a fun change is taking place in a middle school in Chengdu, Sichuan province, where students can learn English by playing mahjong or 麻将. Is it possible to learn English in an entertaining way?How does it work, guys?Yuyang: Yeah, this is really interesting. A set of English mahjong tiles invented by a middle school principal in Chengdu has gone viral in China. Of course this is different from the traditional Chinese mahjong. And this set of mahjong is English ones. The 26 English letters are stuck on the surface of the tiles. Students have to combine the tiles into words, and whoever composes a sentence with the words wins the game. Meantime, Students can also play poker and weiqi (or Go) in classrooms. Of course, these pieces in students&`& hands are in English alphabets. Such fun time for students!Ryan: You know when we are talking about this, I imagined maybe a teacher or a parent walking into a room when their kid was in there. There were three other friends smoking cigars, drinking 白酒, and playing this. And their parent’s like ‘what are you doing?’ Then they are like ‘learning English’. But maybe that gives you a point of where I’m coming from. I think that…I don’t know a lot about mahjong, but maybe I can compare it with poker. And that in my family I wasn’t allowed to necessarily play poker until I was of a certain age because there was a heavy gambling context associated with that game. And so when I’m thinking of this, yes, the good is there that people are learning English and I think it’s really cool to learn English in a fun way. But at the same time I think this is still relevant in that they are playing game that’s commonly used to gamble with and that could have some effects on them.Heyang: Yeah, and actually that is a really worthwhile concern, I think. As mahjong for me, I would have thought it’s sort of just entertainment for the masses and I wouldn’t necessarily connect it with gambling coz I’ve seen older folks play mahjong and instead of money, they use like 瓜子儿, you know like sunflower seeds to replace the money or…you know there are many ways to play it. And you see in so many places in China that it is a really important item in the entertainment list that people have. But I think it’s really interesting that a teacher is actually connecting the two, learning English and playing mahjong together. What do you think of this kind of mentality behind the design?Yuyang: Oh yeah, I think I come from very traditional background in China. But Ryan, compared to you, I was allowed to play poker from a very young age. That is about when I was in primary school. I can play poker with my parents. So I think if you can give the students safe context, maybe they can do it; they can both play mahjong and learn English without causing the parents’ worry. Well, let me explain. Let me explain the school principal’s logic in some way. Well, students have to form English words with the letters they get and then write down on their notebooks. A student wins a game after they form the most English words, writing sentences and telling a story by using the words. And the school principal says that he has calculated the frequency of letters appearing in words, and then set the quantities of each letters differently, such as having eight mahjong pieces of ‘I’ but only two ‘B’. So according to the school principal, it’s scientific design, in some way.Ryan: Yeah. You know, listening to this, I just think there is better ways to learn English and that is listening to RoundTable. Number Uno! (Yuyang: Oh yeah) Come on, folks! Why are we even talking about this? You should be listening to RoundTable as often as you can. But maybe another good personal idea is that I would say watch TV shows. Listen to how people interact, you’re learning their mannerisms and you’re learning how they speak, pronunciation and how they formulate sentences. So those are my two suggestions but like I had said before that, RoundTable, obviously, number one, folks.Heyang: Oh definitely. Ryan, you’ve just provided us with the most valuable words of today. That is, well you know, RoundTable. I can’t think of another option for you. Yeah and I think with this playing the mahjong thing to learn English, actually the idea is similar to playing Scrabble. So it’s about, you know, forming those words and expanding your vocabulary and those things. And also those mahjong tiles they don’t look cheap to me at all. It’s special mahjong tiles. And now for some reason it’s just mahjong tiles ringing in my head right now.

【特别感谢热心听友“绿云扰-王佳云”帮忙听写本篇文稿】Ryan: Yeah, I’m just gonna go right back to Heyang here. I’m just saying…... (Heyang: Sure, I’m ready.) Okay, as you are talking from you know being a woman in her twenties and knowing so much about the world and what not. But you know I should honestly say that when I was seventeen to now I wouldn’t have known like maybe necessarily I would be like oh, someone is on my phone, it’s so cool. I like I need to answer them right away I want to be cool and popular. All these stupid things going through your head and eventually realized like popularity is just all superficial and you should just be yourself. But those realizations come later in life. These are kids so someone needs to snap them on the hand and say, hey, put the phone away so that’s my spiel. That’s my spiel but at the same time you know I do want to say that I do think this is a problem also as adults we don’t have specifically those numbers. But I mean today I was coming to work and I remember walking through the subway and seeing grown-ups walking up stairs and down stairs with their phones right in front of them and they are not even looking what’s to the left what’s to the right. If something happens they are definitely not gonna be able to respond. They are able to walk in one pattern comfortably but at the same time you know imagine if someone behind them falls they can’t respond and it’s just gonna create a chain effect. Come on, it’s dangerous and people there’s a time and a place.Heyang: Yeah, Ryan, although I don’t really want to admit it but you are right.Ryan: You all heard it~Niu Honglin: What she says is right. And I think what she meant is you have to teach your kids and by teaching them what to do instead of telling them. Maybe you can be a good example. You can stop watching your smartphones stop playing games when you are walking when you are driving and that will them a sense of what to do things.Heyang: Yes, and actually you kind of read my mind successfully, Niu Honglin. (Niu Honglin: Thank you, I have that ability.) You are a very smart girl and also Ryan I think you really did hit the nail in the head with saying that it actually the adults that haven’t really been setting the best example or being the role model and they don’t really realize themselves or they don’t have a stance to say that you should get off your digital device when you are mobile when they themselves are probably doing the same thing. So now it’s actually a bigger problem. It’s not just teenagers being a bit crazy and immature and those things. It is actually a bigger picture.Ryan: Yeah, you know I just wanna…you know it’s tough because these teenagers were dealing with new things that are happening and everything is changing, technology is growing. It seems like it’s grow in the trend of we are always plugged in. We are always in some way in communication with people. But you know I would just like to say that these kids I hope that their parents crackdown a little more on them using devices while they are walking. But you know you can be one of those perfect people that doesn’t use devices. What’s really scary is if there’s some adult behind a car or something like that. Because you can be the best driver in the world or the most protective walker in the world but when you believe like someone driving a car is being a responsible driver yet they bring out their phone and texting. That doesn’t matter how good of a person you are about your walking habits. That person is also just as dangerous as you also having that phone in texting. So I think what’s really important here to and something you definitely worth focusing on is that adults especially because they can do more things like driving and what not need to better about choosing the time and place to use these devices.Heyang: Yes, that is a very good point and also echoed by one of our WeChat listeners Mr.战神. He says: I avoid using my smartphone at home because I don’t my daughter to copy my behavior. (Niu Honglin: That’s good parenting.) Yes, and he also says actually I can live the weekend without it. And 战神 I can totally agree with you because I do that all the time. (Niu Honglin: You people are amazing!) And also he says while walking I don’t listen to this amazing show called RoundTable. I only do that when I am sitting down alone because when you are walking in the street and you’ve got the earphones in your ear sockets then it’s bad for your listening ability and you could be in danger when you don’t notice. Those are some really good tips.Ryan: They are some really good tips and awesome parenting showing by example I love it. But he mentioned the headphones you know I’m not gonna lie to our listeners because they are wonderful and I want to be very honest with them. I do listen to my headphones not necessarily when I am driving but almost never when I am driving. But like in a subway when I am walking around to transfer and what not. You know that’s I feel like I can handle that and I can respond to situations visually but at the same time I can understand where he is coming from and saying you are impaired without hearing. Niu Honglin: Yeah, and also one of the dangers we are not saying is dangerous places but some place you should not listen to music or whatever. You are crossing the street or at a street corner or you are in a driveway or a parking lot that’s the places that you need to watch out.Ryan: Niu Honglin nailed it on the head there I totally one hundred percent agree. I think like you said use your discretion but when it’s traffic related crossing streets especially you are driving those cars, guys, devices should not be the first thing on your mind, it should be you know should be safety and protecting those around you.Heyang: Yeah, very nicely said and also if you are really that desperate to stay in touch for those people that are just not worth it anybody, then just take a minute I think just stand still and move to a corner to a safe place in the street and finish your texting or whatever you are doing on your phone and then resume your walking after that, if you are really that desperate.Niu Honglin: And from a personal experience that will give you a high efficiency even though you are playing a game just stand there, stand in a safety place and play your game do whatever you want they will give you better experience.Heyang: Yes, that person can be stuck there for minutes if not in an hour I’ve seen that happened to. But that’s the safer way to do and everybody just stay safe alright? That’s what I want to say and before we move on to our last topic of discussion today, Ryan you are getting all the nice messages today. (Ryan: You guys are so sweet. Keep them coming.) You are just asking for more and our dear listeners seem to feed more into your ego.Ryan: Because we love each other, Heyang, that’s how it is. (Heyang: Alright, I get a little jealous sometimes.) They don’t understand guys, or she’s doesn’t understand our love guy, but that’s okay. Heyang: I understand a little bit, a little bit and there is Linka, maybe that’s your name, and she says, Ryan always has a nice point, smart guy. Being called smart, that must make your day, Mr. Ryan Price, right? And there is naxiaoning says I agree with Ryan, kids are kids, don’t hold them the standard of adults. I am crazy when I was at that age. So thank you for sharing that comment and agreeing with Ryan. When can someone agree with Heyang? There is 那朵小花 saying this is my first 弹幕 biu message, love you Heyang, your voice lights my day. OK, that’s so nice of you.Ryan: I also love Heyang, guys. She is awesome. So I’m right there way with you.Heyang: Oh my goodness, thank you for saying so much nice things to me. That is really cute of all of you.

Heyang: With your book organization style, it can say a lot about you. It’s almost more telling than what you read to some extent. It’s not the subject matter of the books you read that reveal the insights to your personality, but it’s the way you organize those books in (ways such as) spines in or out, or according to color code, or genre. How do you exactly order your bookshelf? I wanna ask you guys first about your personal decisions, and we’ll go from there.Ryan: When I was looking at this I looked at all the different kinds of ways they had listed for you on how you organize your bookshelf. And I immediately connected with subject matter, because I feel I would put books about science over here, and books about space and art here. That would make it easier for me to get to the kind of book I wanted real quick. But I saw some other ones too. Like color coordinated. I am kind of a “Fengshui” kind of guy.HY: You are?! Ryan: I know, yes, I am. HY: I don’t know you at all, Ryan. I feel betrayed. Yu Yang: You said you are into science, space and something like that. Ryan: But I’m also into aesthetics, if I have a space ship it would be really cool. So I can understand that, like color coordinated books to look awesome. That might be really cool.HY: What about you Yu Yang? YY: I sometimes stack my books according to their sizes. I put books of similar size together. The big books are stacked here, the smaller books at stacked there. But sometimes I group books of the same subject matter together. Journals, dictionaries, novels, and notebooks are grouped separately. HY: And Yu Yang you are an organizing freak. (YY: Yes, I am.) She likes things clean, in an orderly fashion, and it would be such a treat to live with you, and have you help me out with these things. I would be so grateful Yu Yang!YY: I know your purpose, Heyang. But I’d like to help you out. (Thank you.) I’m notoriously known as the super clean and super organized person.Ryan: I think it’s a good thing to be known for. I think I’ve been known as the opposite. No no no. But anyways, Heyang, please fill us in. Where do you fit in on this category of organization. HY: At first, I thought I would go by author. Coz if I like a writer, I will buy almost every book that’s published by that person. I want it to be grouped together, regardless of size and how it looks. I want it to be together. Otherwise it kinda bugs me. But that’s not really on the list! So I’m kinda thinking outside of the box. I think subject matter kind of makes sense. But color coordination, like what Ryan said, no way does that become one thing I would consider. Ryan: Whatever…To each their own okay. But there was one of these categories which I was pretty surprised with. But I could also understand. And that was spines to the back. So image the part of the book where you have normally facing you out from the bookshelf actually goes in, so you just see the pages. I immediately thought this…the description says you are a perfectionist. Any my thinking is you are reading shameful things. (HY: You have something to hide.) Romance novels that are cheesy and you don’t want anybody to know about it, like my mom out there. I know you mom!HY: And I think Ryan you are talking about me too. (Ryan: And Heyang too for sure.) It’s like if you’ve got “50 Shades of Grey.” (Ryan: Or “The Notebook”…) Or The Notebook, or…It might surprise some people…(YY: You don’t want other people to see the title, so you hide the spines to the back.) You are just reading my mind Yu Yang. I have a collection of, can’t believe I am revealing this to our listeners, but yes I read romance novels. I’m a girl, I’m allowed. Sometimes it is a little bit embarrassing if a visitor comes to my home and sees this. Heyang, are you an educated and worldly person, and you should be reading “The Memoirs of The Second World War, ” and you read this? About some hot dude dating some girl. And sometimes the covers are kind of shameful. Ryan: You know you are not alone. Coz I remember when I was visiting my grandmother’s place, my mom, my sister and my grandmother were all in the kitchen talking. I was like that’s interesting, what are they talking about? They were talking about this book that’s secret dark passion. I was like that is the most corny romance chick flick book I’ve ever heard. But they are so into these books. And they were trying to talking to me about it, I was like no no. those books are like…horny...chick flicks. Not my scene. HY: I am so brave to admit that I enjoy reading them. (YY: Brave girl.) If you are a chronological order person, then you are probably an academic that holds on to everything. If you are on your tablet all the time and order your books on the tablet, then you are into technology and you definitely are not in my “cave.” That’s all for the books.

非常感谢【张仕泓-Sammy】对本文稿的贡献！正确率很高，特此表扬！He Yang: An annual music report says music sales in China rose 63.8% in 2015. What’s contributed to this seemingly dramatic rise in revenue? Does it mean that China’s music market is moving to a paid model? Guys, tell me more about what’s behind this glamorous figure.Yu Yang: The International Federation of the Phonographic Industry’s annual music report says that music sales in China rose 63.8% percent in 2015, to $170 million in total, which is “a tremendous increase”. And the report says China tops the list for record companies. As we know, China’s music market witnessed the rampant piracy in the past, but it seems the situation has changed. He Yang: But in emerging markets, we can’t rival with what the Americans have paid for music, for example, last year, but still, I mean this is kind of a new thing. (Yeah). You know, people are paying for stuff online, that is… (That’s a good start?) I guess so.Ryan: You know, I disagree with both of you. Because when I first came to China, which was 2013, someone introduced me to QQ music, and l was like OMG, (laughing), I’ve can totally listen to all my jams, and it’s free! You know, before I was using a kind of streaming service, and I was paying a monthly fee too to listen er… as many…as much music as I wanted, but I was paying for it. So when I found out about the QQ music, I was so excited. But according to the IFPI’s report, the music industry achieved a key milestone in 2015 when digital became the primary revenue stream for recording music worldwide, overtaking sales of physical formats for the first time. So here we are seeing obviously physical formats are going kind of away, and the world is going to a digital platform and so I think we’re gonna see that government and industries will start to regulate that on more, more sale.He Yang: Yeah, that’s true and I think it’s quite interesting to see that, while, people want music, people want audio products, and you want Round Table, and so it’s about how do you monetize through what medium, I suppose, and now I think, when you look at the western model, with especially you know, with Spotify, with iTunes, you see there is a way to make money from people downloading music online and do you think this is kind of happening in China right now?Ryan: I would say yes. Yan Xiaohong, deputy director of the copyright administration, recently said more than 2.2 million illegal songs had been removed within the two months of an issuance of kind of removal of copyright-infringement content, which I can personally say I experienced that I remember I was using QQ music maybe like a year ago and this new Justin Bieber album came out. I am ashamed to say I was curious, guys. I was curious. So… (Now, you’ve loved it.) Ah ha, I… I…Well, Okay, So I can stream it. I can listen to it. No actually, no, I couldn&`&t listen to it. I couldn&`&t stream it. I had to… I couldn&`&t use the QQ music to actually play the song, but it was there and gave me this offer and saying: “Hey, do you want pay for it?” I was like no way, dude, Justin Bieber, I am not…haha (Not paying for him?) Any Bieber’s fans out there, this is just my personal preference. But I don’t think I would pay for a Justin Bieber song. But, yeah, so I, I would say like, definitely, they are cracking down on these free music sites. Yu Yang: Yeah, besides the government’s involvement, I think the Chinese technic giants like Tencent and Alibaba is making their way to a paid model, like Tencent, it first launched a paid service in 2008, and I think China has been making efforts to cracking down on the music piracy for years, but now I think this time is kind of different with the level of engagement by the government and major Chinese companies. He Yang: Yeah, I think we’re seeing a bit of change here from the government’s seriousness and determination to sort of clean up the piracy online. And also, I think a report earlier last year actually said that those who were born after the 1990s are more inclined to pay for music online or stuff online that previously used to be free. And I think that’s an important education to people, ‘cause (Yes) the Internet is a great place for free stuff, but have you ever thought about the people that put so much effort and creativity into what you are getting for free. It’s not right. Those people need to be rewarded. (Yeah, they deserve credit.)Ryan: I am in. I am right there with you, they…they deserve rewards for their work. He Yang: Yeah, certainly, and Lexie says, she is on Wechat says, He Yang, after listening to your brain wash of… you need to listen to the live show, I am finally here, and she says that there are some songs on QQ music can no longer be found either.