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Redwood is a state-of-the-art graphical interface that defines the look and feel of the new Oracle Cloud Redwood Applications.   In this episode, hosts Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham, along with Senior Principal OCI Instructor Joe Greenwald, take a closer look at the intent behind the design and development aspects of the new Redwood experience. They also explore Redwood page templates and components.   Survey: https://customersurveys.oracle.com/ords/surveys/t/oracle-university-gtm/survey?k=focus-group-2-link-share-5   Developing Redwood Applications with Visual Builder: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/learning-path/developing-redwood-applications-with-visual-builder/112791   Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/   X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/Oracle_Edu   Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode.   ---------------------------------------------------------   Episode Transcript:   00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this series of informative podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular Oracle technologies. Let's get started. 00:26 Nikita: Hello and welcome to the Oracle University Podcast! I'm Nikita Abraham, Team Lead: Editorial Services with Oracle University, and with me is Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs. Lois: Hi everyone! Thanks for joining us for this Best of 2024 series, where we're playing for you our four most popular episodes of the year.    Nikita: Today's episode is #3 of 4 and is a throwback to another conversation with Joe Greenwald, our Senior Principal OCI Instructor. We asked Joe about Oracle's Redwood design system and how it helps us create stunning, world-class enterprise applications and user experiences.  01:04 Lois: Yeah, Redwood is the basis for all the new Oracle Cloud Applications being re-designed, developed, and delivered. Joe is the best person to ask about all of this because he's been working with our Oracle software development tools since the early 90s and is responsible for OU's Visual Builder Studio and Redwood course content. So, let's dive right in! Joe: Hi Lois. Hi Niki. I am excited to join you on this episode because with the release of 24A Fusion applications, we are encouraging all our customers to adopt the new Redwood design system and components, and take advantage of the world-class look and feel of the new Redwood user experience. Redwood represents a new approach and direction for us at Oracle, and we're excited to have our customers benefit from it. 01:49 Nikita: Joe, you've been working with Oracle user interface development tools and frameworks for a long time. How and why is Redwood different? Joe: I joined Oracle in 1992, and the first Oracle user interface I experienced was Oracle Forms. And that was the character mode. I came from a background of Smalltalk and its amazing, pioneering graphical user interface (GUI) design capabilities. I worked at Apple and I developed my own GUIs for a few years on PCs and Macs. So, Character Mode Forms, what we used to call DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) screens, was a shock, to say the least. Since then, I've worked with almost every user interface and development platform Oracle has created: Character Mode Forms, GUI Forms, Power Objects, HyperCard on the Macintosh, that was pre-OS X by the way, Sedona, written in native C++ and ActiveX and OLE, which didn't make it to a product but appeared in other things later, ADF Faces, which uses Java to generate HTML pages, and APEX, which uses PL/SQL to generate HTML pages. And I've worked with and wrote training classes for Java Swing, an excellent GUI framework for event-driven desktop and enterprise applications, but it wasn't designed for the web. So, it's with pleasure that I introduce you to the Redwood design system, easily the best effort I've ever seen, from the look and feel of holistic user-goal-centered design philosophy and approach to the cutting-edge WYSIWYG design tools.  03:16 Lois: Joe, is Redwood just another set of styles, colors, and fonts, albeit very nice-looking ones? Joe: The Redwood platform is new for Oracle, and it represents a significant change, not just in the look and feel, colors, fonts, and styles, I mean that too, but it's also a fundamental change in how Oracle is creating, designing, and imagining user interfaces. As you may be aware, all Oracle Cloud Applications are being re-designed, re-engineered, and re-rebuilt from the ground up, with significant changes to both back-end and front-end architectures. The front end is being redesigned, re-developed, and re-created in pure HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript using Visual Builder Studio and its design-time browser-based Integrated Development Environment. The back end is being re-architected, re-designed, and implemented in a modern microservice architecture for Oracle Cloud using Kubernetes and other modern technologies that improve performance and work better in the cloud than our current legacy architecture. The new Oracle Cloud Applications platform uses Redwood for its design system—its tools, its patterns, its components, and page templates. Redwood is a richer and more productive platform to create solutions while still being cost-effective for Oracle. It encourages a transformation of the fundamental user experience, emphasizing identifying, meeting, and understanding end users' goals and how the applications are used.  04:39 Nikita: Joe, do you think Oracle's user interface has been improved with Redwood? In what ways has the UI changed? Joe: Yes, absolutely. Redwood has changed a lot of things. When I joined Oracle back in the '90s, there was effectively no user interface division or UI team. Everybody just did their own thing. There was no user interface lab—and that was started in the mid-‘90s—and I was asked to give product usability feedback and participate in UI tests and experiments in those labs. I also helped test the products I was teaching at the time. I actually distinctly remember having to take a week to train users on Oracle's Designer CASE tool product just to prep the participants enough to perform usability testing. I can still hear the UI lab manager shaking her head and saying any product that requires a week of training to do usability testing has usability issues! And if you're like me and you've been around Oracle long enough, you know that Oracle's not always been known for its user interfaces and been known to release products that look like they were designed by two or more different companies. All that has changed with Redwood. With Redwood, there's a new internal design group that oversees the design choices of all development teams that develop products. This includes a design system review and an ongoing audit process to ensure that all the products being released, whether Fusion apps or something else, all look and feel similar so it looks like it's designed by a single company with a single thought in mind. Which it is. There's a deeper, consistent commitment in identifying user needs, understanding how the applications are being used, and how they meet those user needs through things like telemetry: gathering metrics from the actual components and the Redwood system itself to see how the applications are being used, what's working well, and what isn't.  This telemetry is available to us here at Oracle, and we use it to fine tune the applications' usability and purpose.  06:29 Lois: That's really interesting, Joe. So, it's a fundamental change in the way we're doing things. What about the GUI components themselves? Are these more sophisticated than simple GUI components like buttons and text fields? Joe: The graphical components themselves are at a much higher level, more comprehensive, and work better together. And in Redwood, everything is a component. And I'm not just talking about things like input text fields and buttons, though it applies to these more fine-grained components as well. Leveraging Oracle's deep experience in building enterprise applications, we've incorporated that knowledge into creating page templates so that the structure and look and feel of the page is fixed based on our internal design standards. The developer has control over certain portions of it, but the overall look and feel of the page is controlled by Oracle. So there is consistency of look and feel within and across applications. These page templates come with predefined functionalities: headers, titles, properties, and variables to manipulate content and settings, slots for other components to hold like search fields, collections, contextual information, badges, and images, as well as primary and secondary actions, and variables for events and event handling through Visual Builder action chains, which handle the various actions and processing of the request on the page. And all these page templates and components are responsive, meaning they respond to the change in the size of the page and the orientation. So, when you move from a desktop to a handheld mobile device or a tablet, they respond appropriately and consistently to deliver a clean, easy-to-use interface and experience. 08:03 Nikita: You mentioned WYSIWYG design tools and their integration with Visual Builder Studio's integrated development environment. How does Redwood work with Visual Builder Studio? Joe: This is easily one of my most favorite aspects about Redwood and the integration with Visual Builder Studio Designer. The components and page templates are responsive at runtime as well as responsive at design time! In over 30 years of working with Oracle software development products, this is the first development system and integrated development environment I've seen Oracle produce where what you see is what you get at design time. Now, with products such as Designer and JDeveloper ADF Faces and even APEX—all those page-generation types of products—you have to generate the page, deploy it, and only then can you view the final page to see whether it meets the needs of your user interface. For example, with Designer, there were literally hundreds of configuration parameters that you could set to control how forms and reports looked when they were generated —down to how many buttons on a row or how many rows to a page, that sort of thing, all done in text mode. Then you'd generate and run the page to see what the result was and then go back and modify things until you got what you wanted. I remember hearing the product managers for Oracle ADF Faces being asked…well, a customer asked, “What happens if I put this component here and this component here? What will the page look like?” and they'd say, “I don't know. Render the page and let's see.” That's just crazy talk. With Redwood and its integration with Visual Builder Studio Designer, what you see on the page at design time is literally what you get. And if I make the page narrower or I even convert it to a mobile display while in the Designer itself, I immediately see what the page looks like in that new mode. Everything just moves accordingly, at design time. For example, when changing to a mobile UI, everything stacks up nicely; the components adjust to the page size and change right there in the design environment. Again, I can't emphasize enough the simple luxury of being able to see exactly what the user is going to see on my page and having the ability to change the resolution, orientation, and screen size, and it changes right there immediately in my design environment. 10:06 Lois: I'm intrigued by the idea of page templates that are managed by Oracle but still leave room for the developer to customize aspects of the look and feel and functionality. How does that work? Joe: Well, the page templates themselves represent the typical pages you would most likely use in an enterprise application. Things like a welcome page, a search page, and edit and create pages, and a couple of different ways to display summary information, including foldout pages, though this is not an exhaustive list of course. Not only do they provide a logical and complete starting point for the layout of the page itself, but they also include built-in functionality. These templates include functionality for buttons, primary and secondary actions, and areas for holding contextual information, badges, avatars, and images. And this is all built right into the page, and all of them use variables to describe the contents for the various parts, so the contents can change programmatically as the variables' contents change, if necessary. 11:04 Do you have an idea for a new course or learning opportunity? We'd love to hear it! Visit the Oracle University Learning Community and share your thoughts with us on the Idea Incubator. Your suggestion could find a place in future development projects. Visit mylearn.oracle.com to get started.  11:24 Nikita: Welcome back! So, Joe, let's say I'm a developer. How do I get started working with Redwood? Joe: One of the easiest ways to do it is to use Visual Builder Studio Designer and create a new visual application. If you're creating a standalone, bespoke custom application, you can choose a Redwood starter template, which will include all the Redwood components and page templates automatically. Or, if you're extending and customizing an Oracle Fusion application, Redwood is already included.  Either way, when you create a new page, you have a choice of different page templates—welcome page templates, edit pages, search pages, etc. —and all you have to do is choose a page that you want and begin configuring it. And actually if you make a mistake, it's easy to switch page templates. All the components, page templates, and so on have documentation right there inside Visual Builder Studio Designer, and we do recommend that you read through the documentation first to get an understanding of what the use case for that template is and how to use it. And some components are more granular, like a collection container which holds a collection of rows of a list or a table and provides capabilities like toolbars and other actions that are already built and defined. You decide what actions you want and then use predefined event listeners that are triggered when an event occurs in the application—like a button being clicked or a row being selected—which kicks off a series of actions to be performed. 12:42 Lois: That sounds easy enough if you know what you're doing. Joe, what are some of the more common pages and what are they used for?  Joe: Redwood page templates can be broken down into categories. There are overview templates like the welcome page template, which has a nice banner, colors, and illustrations that can be used for a welcoming page—like for entering a new application or a new logical section of the application. The dashboard landing page template displays key information values and their charts and graphs, which can come from Oracle Analytics, and automatically switches the display depending on which set of data is selected.  The detail templates include a general overview, which presents read-only information related to a single record or resource. The item overview gives you a small panel to view summary information (for example, information on a customer) and in the main section, you can view details like all the orders for that customer. And you can even navigate through a set of customers, clicking arrows for next-previous navigation. And that's all built in. There's no programming required. The fold-out page template folds out horizontally to show you individual panels with more detail that can be displayed about the subject being retrieved as well as overflow and drill-down areas. And there's a collection detail template that will display a list with additional details about the selected item (for example, an order and its order line items). The smart search page does exactly what it says. It has a search component that you use to filter or search the data coming back from the REST data sources and then display the results in a list or a table. You define the filter yourself and apply it using different kinds of comparators, so you can look for strings that start with certain values or contain values, or numerical values that are equal to or less than, depending on what you're filtering for. And then there are the transactional templates, which are meant to make changes. This includes both the simple create and edit and advanced create and edit templates.  The simple create and edit page template edits a single record or creates a single record. And the advanced page template works well if you're working with master-detail, parent-child type relationships. Let's say you want to view the parent and create children for it or even create a parent and the children at the same time. And there's a Gantt chart page for project management–type tracking and a guided process page for multiple-step processes and there's a data management page template specifically for viewing and editing data collections like Excel spreadsheets. 14:55 Nikita: You mentioned that there's a design system behind all this. How is this used, and how does the customer benefit from it? Joe: Redwood comprises both a design system and a development system. The design system has a series of steps that we follow here at Oracle and can suggest that you, our customers and partners, can follow as well. This includes understanding the problem, articulating the vision for the page and the application (what it should do), identifying the proper Redwood page templates to use, adding detail and refining the design and then using a number of different mechanisms, including PowerPoint or Figma design tools to specify the design for development, and then monitor engagement in the real world. These are the steps that we follow here at Oracle. The Redwood development process starts with learning how to use Redwood components and templates using the documentation and other content from redwood.oracle.com and Visual Builder Studio. Then it's about understanding the design created by the design team, learning more about components and templates for your application, specifically the ones you're going to use, how they work, and how they work together. Then developing your application using Visual Builder Studio Designer, and finally improving and refining your application. Now, right now, as I mentioned, telemetry is available to us here at Oracle so we can get a sense of the feedback on the pages of how components are being used and where time is being spent, and we use that to tune the designs and components being used. That telemetry data may be available to customers in the future. Now, when you go to redwood.oracle.com, you can access the Redwood pattern book that shows you in detail all the different page templates that are available: smart search page, data grid, welcome page, dashboard landing page, and so on, and you can select these and read more about them as well as the actual design specifications that were used to build the pages—defining what they do and what they respond to. They provide a lot of detailed information about the templates and components, how they work and how they're intended to be used. 16:50 Lois: That's a lot of great resources available. But what if I don't have access to Visual Builder Studio Designer? Can I still see how Redwood looks and behaves? Joe: Well, if you go to redwood.oracle.com, you can log in and work with the Redwood reference application, which is a live application working with live data. It was created to show off the various page templates and components, their look and feel and functionality from the Redwood design and development systems. This is an order management application, so you can do things like view filtered pending orders, create new orders, manage orders, and view information about customers and inventory. It uses the different page templates to show you how the application can perform. 17:29 Nikita: I assume there are common aspects to how these page templates are designed, built, and intended to be used. Is that a good way to begin understanding how to work with them? Becoming familiar with their common properties and functionality? Joe: Absolutely! Good point! All pages have titles, and most have primary and secondary actions that can be triggered through a variety of GUI events, like clicking a button or a link or selecting something in a list or a table. The transactional page templates include validation groups that validate whether the data is correct before it is submitted, as well as a message dialog that can pop up if there are unsaved changes and someone tries to leave the page. All the pages can use variables to display information or set properties and can easily display specific contextual information about records that have been retrieved, like adding the Order Number or Customer Name and Number to the page title or section headers. 18:18 Lois: If I were a developer, I'd be really excited to get started! So, let's say I'm a developer. What's the best way to begin learning about Redwood, Joe? Joe: A great place to start learning about the Redwood design and development system is at the redwood.oracle.com page I mentioned. We have many different pages that describe the philosophy and fundamental basis for Redwood, the ideas and intent behind it, and how we're using it here at Oracle. It also has a list of all the different page templates and components you can use and a link to the Redwood reference application where you can sign in and try it yourself. In addition, we at Oracle University offer a course called Design and Develop Redwood Applications, and in there, we have both lecture content as well as hands-on practices where you build a lightweight version of the Redwood reference application using data from the Fusion apps application, as well as the pages that I talked about: the welcome page, detail pages, transactional pages, and the dashboard landing page.  And you'll see how those pages are designed and constructed while building them yourself.  It's very important though to take one of the free Visual Builder Developer courses first: either Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio and/or Develop Fusion Applications Using Visual Builder Studio before you try to work through the practices in the Redwood course because it uses a lot of Visual Builder Designer technology.  You'll get a lot more out of the Redwood practices if you understand the basics of Visual Builder Studio first. The Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio course is probably a better place to start unless you know for a fact you will be focusing on extending Oracle Fusion Applications using Visual Builder Studio. Now, a lot of the content is the same between the two courses as they share much of the same technology and architectures. 19:58 Lois: Ok, so Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio and Develop Fusion Applications Using Visual Builder Studio…all on mylearn.oracle.com and all free for anyone who wants to take them, right? Joe: Yes, exactly. And the free Redwood learning path leads to an Associate certification. While our courses are a great place to start in preparing for your certification exam, they are not, of course, by themselves sufficient to pass and you will want to study and be familiar with the redwood.oracle.com content as well. The learning path is free, but you do have to pay for the certification exam. Nikita: We hope you enjoyed that conversation. A quick reminder about the short survey we've created to gather your insights and suggestions for the podcast. It's really quick. Just click the link in the show notes to complete the survey. Thank you so much for helping us make the show better. Join us next week for another throwback episode. Until then, this is Nikita Abraham... Lois: And Lois Houston, signing off! 20:58 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. We'd also love it if you would take a moment to rate and review us on your podcast app. See you again on the next episode of the Oracle University Podcast.

All of your hosts are together in the Clubhouse for a special interview! Lydia Symchych is an impact game designer who has been working with Ellen over the last year. Today, she shares her experience of making an escape room that needed to be rendered in both "physical" and and digital environments. Also, sound effects and pillows.In the USA, November 28th is Thanksgiving Day, and November 29th is National Native American Heritage Day. Happy holidays, if you're in the USA—and if you're not, we hope you have something to be thankful for.

Bill Atkinson, creador de QuickDraw, MacPaint y HyperCard, ha anunciado que padece cáncer de páncreas. Este episodio repasa su extraordinaria contribución a Apple y a la informática moderna, destacando no solo su brillantez técnica sino también su visión humanista de la tecnología. Loop Infinito es un podcast de Applesfera, presentado por Javier Lacort y editado por Alberto de la Torre. Contacta con el autor en X (@jlacort) o por correo (lacort@xataka.com). Gracias por escuchar este podcast.

Lords: * Alex * https://www.youtube.com/@adiener * https://discord.com/invite/ZkV2zdb * Mitch * https://hbmmaster.tumblr.com/ * https://www.youtube.com/@HBMmaster * https://www.patreon.com/hbmmaster Topics: * The Wikipedia article about football * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football * Classic Macintosh computers * The entomologist nerds get like two minutes of screen time in Silence of the Lambs, but I'm pretty sure they directly inspired the whole genre of forensic investigation TV. * With Apologies to Dr. Seuss, by Supper Mario Broth * https://fxtwitter.com/MarioBrothBlog/status/1807077109661114636 * Archipelago * https://archipelago.gg/ * That "chat is a fourth person pronoun" thing is impressively wrong Microtopics: * Off-the-cuff something. * Putting on the best talent show Cohost has ever seen. * Www.www.www * How to deal with multiple things that are called the same thing. * A list of things called Georgia. * A very opinionated move that you would not expect from a source as neutral as Wikipedia. * Sometimes your can carry the ball; sometimes you can't carry the ball. * What an IP address has to say about women in sports. * Sports: there's a place where you play it. * Watching Mexican TV and seeing an ad for "¡futbol americano!" * Repairing an old Mac that you found in an e-waste place. * Whether programming has changed since 1985. * Running an Electron app on a Mac Classic. * Switcher allowing you to run four 128k programs at a time on a 512k Mac. * How the 1991 Borland C++ debugger compares to the 2024 Visual Studio debugger. * Blah Blob, a Celeste-inspired platformer implemented as a Hypercard stack. * Sitting at the blender all day blending everything within arm's reach. * Steve Jobs' relationship with fans. * Wrapping your Xbox 360 in a towel to reflow the cracked solder. * Adding an extra lane to a highway to make the traffic worse. * Two awkwardly charming guys who help with an FBI investigation. * CSIvania. * The public domain jingle that precedes the poem. * Supper Mario Broth. * Wario's Shit Bone. * A Rare Gooper Bloober Goop Gooble Event. * Rhyming portend with event. * A textuovisual post. * Dr. Soup. * Whether the folks writing the Prima guide to Mario Sunshine get to personally ask Miyamoto what the weird goop enemies are called. * Bowser's Fury: the final Mario game. * F Boy: the F stands for fireball. * Trying to use a social media service when you don't know anyone on it. * In My Tumbl Opinion. * Weird Mario Enemies. * F Boy (Again) * Wanting a cool nickname like F Boy. * Explaining randomizers to someone who has never heard of video games. * Multi-game multiplayer randomizers. * A non-randomized randomizer. * Getting rupee donations left and right when all you need is a sword. * Unofficial archipelago support. * The hypothetical dad behind the fourth wall. * The hypothetical eighth month of the year. * Subtumbling. * How to tell the difference between a noun and a pronoun. * Old-fashioned home grown misinformation. * Getting from fourth wall to fourth person. * Fourth person perspective as an alternative term for first person plural. * Whether "dad" is a pronoun. * Chat hurt chatself in chat's confusion. * Rebageling images from 2014. * Agreeing with yourself from 10 years ago about which images are interesting.

Original text by David Pogue, Macworld May 1994. Products mentioned in this article: Interplay's “Star Trek: 25th Anniversary” adventure game download, CD-ROM download with voice acting, complete playthrough on YouTube. David Landis' Stak Trek episode guide HyperCard stacks. David Pogue interviewed Mark Okrand, creator of Klingon and other conlangs, for the Unsung Science podcast. Sound Source Interactive's audio clip collection. Bitstream Star Trek Font Packs and AkBKukU on the legality of Bitstream's copying of typefaces. Star Trek Omnipedia CD-ROM and updated edition. A little about Phil Farrand, author of the Nitpicker's Guides and the Finale scorewriting software for the Macintosh. David Pogue/Phil Farrand interface design story from the 2005 Mac OS X Conference.

Wed, 22 May 2024 20:45:00 GMT http://relay.fm/connected/503 http://relay.fm/connected/503 The King of Moderating 503 Federico Viticci, Stephen Hackett, and Myke Hurley Stephen has a new username, Myke has a new iPad, Sonos has new headphones, Federico has a new MacPad screen, OpenAI has new drama, and Microsoft has a new vision for the PC. Stephen has a new username, Myke has a new iPad, Sonos has new headphones, Federico has a new MacPad screen, OpenAI has new drama, and Microsoft has a new vision for the PC. clean 5212 Stephen has a new username, Myke has a new iPad, Sonos has new headphones, Federico has a new MacPad screen, OpenAI has new drama, and Microsoft has a new vision for the PC. This episode of Connected is sponsored by: NetSuite: The leading integrated cloud business software suite. Ecamm: Powerful live streaming platform for Mac. Try it for free today. 1Password: Hassle-free security for everyone. Get 2 weeks free. Fitbod: Get stronger, faster with a fitness plan that fits you. Get 25% off your membership. Links and Show Notes: Get Connected Pro: Preshow, postshow, no ads. Submit Feedback Apple Releases iOS 17.5.1, Fixing Issue with Deleted Photos Reappearing – 512 Pixels Apple users are being locked out of their Apple IDs with no explanation - 9to5Mac Upgrade #510: Jason Is Cool GOTO 10 - Relay FM Apple needs to explain that bug that resurfaced deleted photos - The Verge Chris Neuman's Magic Keyboard mod – Threads Apple's HyperCard was inspired by an acid trip - Boing Boing Wearable AI Startup Humane Is Said to Explore Potential Sale - Bloomberg The Sonos Ace headphones are here, and they're damn impressive - The Verge Upgrade #513: I Do Not Rock Anything - Relay FM I Turned the New 13" iPad Pro Into a MacPad and Portable Gaming Display - MacStories Scarlett Johansson told OpenAI not to use her voice — and she's not happy they might have anyway - The Verge Scarlett Johansson, Disney Lawsuit Settled Over ‘Black Widow' Casey Newton: "A few more words about the OpenAI / Scarlett Johansson situation" - Mastodon A better way for platforms to fund journalism – Platformer Microsoft's Surface and Windows AI event live blog: it's Arm time - The Verge Microsoft Surface event: the 6 biggest announcements - The Verge The New Windows is HERE. - Austin Evans - YouTube Daring Fireball: 'Inside Microsoft's Mission to Take Down the MacBook Air' Intel's Lunar Lake chip is coming to AI PCs later this year - The Verge @viticci • Microsoft is already telling a compelling story for gaming on the Snapdragon X Elite architecture... • Threads Microsoft Surface Pro announced: price and release date - The Verge Microsoft Surface Pro hands-on - The Verge Meet the new Microsoft Surface Pro - Microsoft - YouTube Microsoft announces an Arm-powered Surface Laptop - The Verge Xbox President Sarah Bond Has Formed a New Team Dedicated to Game Preservation Microsoft says “Prism” translation layer does for Arm PCs what Rosetta did for Macs | Ars Technica Recall is Microsoft's key to unlockin

Wed, 22 May 2024 20:45:00 GMT http://relay.fm/connected/503 http://relay.fm/connected/503 Federico Viticci, Stephen Hackett, and Myke Hurley Stephen has a new username, Myke has a new iPad, Sonos has new headphones, Federico has a new MacPad screen, OpenAI has new drama, and Microsoft has a new vision for the PC. Stephen has a new username, Myke has a new iPad, Sonos has new headphones, Federico has a new MacPad screen, OpenAI has new drama, and Microsoft has a new vision for the PC. clean 5212 Stephen has a new username, Myke has a new iPad, Sonos has new headphones, Federico has a new MacPad screen, OpenAI has new drama, and Microsoft has a new vision for the PC. This episode of Connected is sponsored by: NetSuite: The leading integrated cloud business software suite. Ecamm: Powerful live streaming platform for Mac. Try it for free today. 1Password: Hassle-free security for everyone. Get 2 weeks free. Fitbod: Get stronger, faster with a fitness plan that fits you. Get 25% off your membership. Links and Show Notes: Get Connected Pro: Preshow, postshow, no ads. Submit Feedback Apple Releases iOS 17.5.1, Fixing Issue with Deleted Photos Reappearing – 512 Pixels Apple users are being locked out of their Apple IDs with no explanation - 9to5Mac Upgrade #510: Jason Is Cool GOTO 10 - Relay FM Apple needs to explain that bug that resurfaced deleted photos - The Verge Chris Neuman's Magic Keyboard mod – Threads Apple's HyperCard was inspired by an acid trip - Boing Boing Wearable AI Startup Humane Is Said to Explore Potential Sale - Bloomberg The Sonos Ace headphones are here, and they're damn impressive - The Verge Upgrade #513: I Do Not Rock Anything - Relay FM I Turned the New 13" iPad Pro Into a MacPad and Portable Gaming Display - MacStories Scarlett Johansson told OpenAI not to use her voice — and she's not happy they might have anyway - The Verge Scarlett Johansson, Disney Lawsuit Settled Over ‘Black Widow' Casey Newton: "A few more words about the OpenAI / Scarlett Johansson situation" - Mastodon A better way for platforms to fund journalism – Platformer Microsoft's Surface and Windows AI event live blog: it's Arm time - The Verge Microsoft Surface event: the 6 biggest announcements - The Verge The New Windows is HERE. - Austin Evans - YouTube Daring Fireball: 'Inside Microsoft's Mission to Take Down the MacBook Air' Intel's Lunar Lake chip is coming to AI PCs later this year - The Verge @viticci • Microsoft is already telling a compelling story for gaming on the Snapdragon X Elite architecture... • Threads Microsoft Surface Pro announced: price and release date - The Verge Microsoft Surface Pro hands-on - The Verge Meet the new Microsoft Surface Pro - Microsoft - YouTube Microsoft announces an Arm-powered Surface Laptop - The Verge Xbox President Sarah Bond Has Formed a New Team Dedicated to Game Preservation Microsoft says “Prism” translation layer does for Arm PCs what Rosetta did for Macs | Ars Technica Recall is Microsoft's key t

Redwood is a state-of-the-art graphical interface that defines the look and feel of the new Oracle Cloud Redwood Applications.  In this episode, hosts Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham, along with Senior Principal OCI Instructor Joe Greenwald, take a closer look at the intent behind the design and development aspects of the new Redwood experience. They also explore Redwood page templates and components.  Developing Redwood Applications with Visual Builder: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/learning-path/developing-redwood-applications-with-visual-builder/112791 Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/ X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/Oracle_Edu Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode. -------------------------------------------------------- Episode Transcript: 00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this series of informative podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular Oracle technologies. Let's get started. 00:26 Lois: Hello and welcome to the Oracle University Podcast! I'm Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs with Oracle University, and with me is Nikita Abraham, Principal Technical Editor. Nikita: Hi everyone! Last week, we discussed how Visual Builder Studio can be used to extend Oracle Fusion Apps.  Lois: That's right, Niki. In today's episode, we will focus on Oracle's Redwood design system and how it helps us create stunning, world-class enterprise applications and user experiences.  00:56 Nikita: Yeah, Redwood is the basis for all the new Oracle Cloud Applications being re-designed, developed, and delivered. To tell us more, we have Senior OCI Learning Solutions Architect and Principal Instructor Joe Greenwald, who's been working with Oracle software development tools since the early 90s and is responsible for OU's Visual Builder Studio and Redwood course content. Lois: Hi Joe! Thanks for being with us today. 01:21 Joe: Hi Lois. Hi Niki. I am excited to join you on this episode because with the release of 24A Fusion applications, we are encouraging all our customers to adopt the new Redwood design system and components, and take advantage of the world-class look and feel of the new Redwood user experience. Redwood represents a new approach and direction for us at Oracle, and we're excited to have our customers benefit from it. 01:44 Nikita: Joe, you've been working with Oracle user interface development tools and frameworks for a long time. How and why is Redwood different? Joe: I joined Oracle in 1992, and the first Oracle user interface I experienced was Oracle Forms. And that was the character mode. I came from a background of Smalltalk and its amazing, pioneering graphical user interface (GUI) design capabilities. I worked at Apple and I developed my own GUIs for a few years on PCs and Macs. So, Character Mode Forms, what we used to call DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) screens, was a shock, to say the least. Since then, I've worked with almost every user interface and development platform Oracle has created: Character Mode Forms, GUI Forms, Power Objects, HyperCard on the Macintosh, that was pre-OS X by the way, Sedona, written in native C++ and ActiveX and OLE, which didn't make it to a product but appeared in other things later, ADF Faces, which uses Java to generate HTML pages, and APEX, which uses PL/SQL to generate HTML pages. And I've worked with and wrote training classes for Java Swing, an excellent GUI framework for event-driven desktop and enterprise applications, but it wasn't designed for the web. So, it's with pleasure that I introduce you to the Redwood design system, easily the best effort I've ever seen, from the look and feel of holistic user-goal-centered design philosophy and approach to the cutting-edge WYSIWYG design tools.  03:11 Lois: Joe, is Redwood just another set of styles, colors, and fonts, albeit very nice-looking ones? Joe: The Redwood platform is new for Oracle, and it represents a significant change, not just in the look and feel, colors, fonts, and styles, I mean that too, but it's also a fundamental change in how Oracle is creating, designing, and imagining user interfaces. As you may be aware, all Oracle Cloud Applications are being re-designed, re-engineered, and re-rebuilt from the ground up, with significant changes to both back-end and front-end architectures. The front end is being redesigned, re-developed, and re-created in pure HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript using Visual Builder Studio and its design-time browser-based Integrated Development Environment. The back end is being re-architected, re-designed, and implemented in a modern microservice architecture for Oracle Cloud using Kubernetes and other modern technologies that improve performance and work better in the cloud than our current legacy architecture. The new Oracle Cloud Applications platform uses Redwood for its design system—its tools, its patterns, its components, and page templates. Redwood is a richer and more productive platform to create solutions while still being cost-effective for Oracle. It encourages a transformation of the fundamental user experience, emphasizing identifying, meeting, and understanding end users' goals and how the applications are used.  04:34 Nikita: Joe, do you think Oracle's user interface has been improved with Redwood? In what ways has the UI changed? Joe: Yes, absolutely. Redwood has changed a lot of things. When I joined Oracle back in the '90s, there was effectively no user interface division or UI team. There was no user interface lab—and that was started in the mid-‘90s—and I was asked to give product usability feedback and participate in UI tests and experiments in those labs. I also helped test the products I was teaching at the time. I actually distinctly remember having to take a week to train users on Oracle's Designer CASE tool product just to prep the participants enough to perform usability testing. I can still hear the UI lab manager shaking her head and saying any product that requires a week of training to do usability testing has usability issues! And if you're like me and you've been around Oracle long enough, you know that Oracle's not always been known for its user interfaces and been known to release products that look like they were designed by two or more different companies. All that has changed with Redwood. With Redwood, there's a new internal design group that oversees the design choices of all development teams that develop products. This includes a design system review and an ongoing audit process to ensure that all the products being released, whether Fusion apps or something else, all look and feel similar so it looks like it's designed by a single company with a single thought in mind. Which it is. 06:00 Joe: There's a deeper, consistent commitment in identifying user needs, understanding how the applications are being used, and how they meet those user needs through things like telemetry: gathering metrics from the actual components and the Redwood system itself to see how the applications are being used, what's working well, and what isn't.  This telemetry is available to us here at Oracle, and we use it to fine tune the applications' usability and purpose.  06:25 Lois: That's really interesting, Joe. So, it's a fundamental change in the way we're doing things. What about the GUI components themselves? Are these more sophisticated than simple GUI components like buttons and text fields? Joe: The graphical components themselves are at a much higher level, more comprehensive, and work better together. And in Redwood, everything is a component. And I'm not just talking about things like input text fields and buttons, though it applies to these more fine-grained components as well. Leveraging Oracle's deep experience in building enterprise applications, we've incorporated that knowledge into creating page templates so that the structure and look and feel of the page is fixed based on our internal design standards. The developer has control over certain portions of it, but the overall look and feel of the page is controlled by Oracle. So there is consistency of look and feel within and across applications. These page templates come with predefined functionalities: headers, titles, properties, and variables to manipulate content and settings, slots for other components to hold like search fields, collections, contextual information, badges, and images, as well as primary and secondary actions, and variables for events and event handling through Visual Builder action chains, which handle the various actions and processing of the request on the page. And all these page templates and components are responsive, meaning they respond to the change in the size of the page and the orientation. So, when you move from a desktop to a handheld mobile device or a tablet, they respond appropriately and consistently to deliver a clean, easy-to-use interface and experience. 07:58 Nikita: You mentioned WYSIWYG design tools and their integration with Visual Builder Studio's integrated development environment. How does Redwood work with Visual Builder Studio? Joe: This is easily one of my most favorite aspects about Redwood and the integration with Visual Builder Studio Designer. The components and page templates are responsive at runtime as well as responsive at design time! In over 30 years of working with Oracle software development products, this is the first development system and integrated development environment I've seen Oracle produce where what you see is what you get at design time. Now, with products such as Designer and JDeveloper ADF Faces and even APEX—all those page-generation types of products—you have to generate the page, deploy it, and only then can you view the final page to see whether it meets the needs of your user interface. For example, with Designer, there were literally hundreds of configuration parameters that you could set to control how forms and reports looked when they were generated —down to how many buttons on a row or how many rows to a page, that sort of thing, all done in text mode. Then you'd generate and run the page to see what the result was and then go back and modify things until you got what you wanted. 09:05 Joe: I remember hearing the product managers for Oracle ADF Faces being asked…well, a customer asked, “What happens if I put this component here and this component here? What will the page look like?” and they'd say, “I don't know. Render the page and let's see.” That's just crazy talk. With Redwood and its integration with Visual Builder Studio Designer, what you see on the page at design time is literally what you get. And if I make the page narrower or I even convert it to a mobile display while in the Designer itself, I immediately see what the page looks like in that new mode. Everything just moves accordingly, at design time. For example, when changing to a mobile UI, everything stacks up nicely; the components adjust to the page size and change right there in the design environment. Again, I can't emphasize enough the simple luxury of being able to see exactly what the user is going to see on my page and having the ability to change the resolution, orientation, and screen size, and it changes right there immediately in my design environment. 10:01 Lois: I'm intrigued by the idea of page templates that are managed by Oracle but still leave room for the developer to customize aspects of the look and feel and functionality. How does that work? Joe: Well, the page templates themselves represent the typical pages you would most likely use in an enterprise application. Things like a welcome page, a search page, and edit and create pages, and a couple of different ways to display summary information, including foldout pages, though this is not an exhaustive list of course. Not only do they provide a logical and complete starting point for the layout of the page itself, but they also include built-in functionality. These templates include functionality for buttons, primary and secondary actions, and areas for holding contextual information, badges, avatars, and images. And this is all built right into the page, and all of them use variables to describe the contents for the various parts, so the contents can change programmatically as the variables' contents change, if necessary. 10:59 Do you have an idea for a new course or learning opportunity? We'd love to hear it! Visit the Oracle University Learning Community and share your thoughts with us on the Idea Incubator. Your suggestion could find a place in future development projects. Visit mylearn.oracle.com to get started.  11:19 Nikita: Welcome back! So, Joe, let's say I'm a developer. How do I get started working with Redwood? Joe: One of the easiest ways to do it is to use Visual Builder Studio Designer and create a new visual application. If you're creating a standalone, bespoke custom application, you can choose a Redwood starter template, which will include all the Redwood components and page templates automatically. Or, if you're extending and customizing an Oracle Fusion application, Redwood is already included.  Either way, when you create a new page, you have a choice of different page templates—welcome page templates, edit pages, search pages, etc. —and all you have to do is choose a page that you want and begin configuring it. And actually if you make a mistake, it's easy to switch page templates. All the components, page templates, and so on have documentation right there inside Visual Builder Studio Designer, and we do recommend that you read through the documentation first to get an understanding of what the use case for that template is and how to use it. And some components are more granular, like a collection container which holds a collection of rows of a list or a table and provides capabilities like toolbars and other actions that are already built and defined. You decide what actions you want and then use predefined event listeners that are triggered when an event occurs in the application—like a button being clicked or a row being selected—which kicks off a series of actions to be performed. 12:38 Lois: That sounds easy enough if you know what you're doing. Joe, what are some of the more common pages and what are they used for?  Joe: Redwood page templates can be broken down into categories. There are overview templates like the welcome page template, which has a nice banner, colors, and illustrations that can be used for a welcoming page—like for entering a new application or a new logical section of the application. The dashboard landing page template displays key information values and their charts and graphs, which can come from Oracle Analytics, and automatically switches the display depending on which set of data is selected.  The detail templates include a general overview, which presents read-only information related to a single record or resource. The item overview gives you a small panel to view summary information (for example, information on a customer) and in the main section, you can view details like all the orders for that customer. And you can even navigate through a set of customers, clicking arrows for next-previous navigation. And that's all built in. There's no programming required. The fold-out page template folds out horizontally to show you individual panels with more detail that can be displayed about the subject being retrieved as well as overflow and drill-down areas. And there's a collection detail template that will display a list with additional details about the selected item (for example, an order and its order line items). 13:52 Joe: The smart search page does exactly what it says. It has a search component that you use to filter or search the data coming back from the REST data sources and then display the results in a list or a table. You define the filter yourself and apply it using different kinds of comparators, so you can look for strings that start with certain values or contain values, or numerical values that are equal to or less than, depending on what you're filtering for. And then there are the transactional templates, which are meant to make changes. This includes both the simple create and edit and advanced create and edit templates.  The simple create and edit page template edits a single record or creates a single record. And the advanced page template works well if you're working with master-detail, parent-child type relationships. Let's say you want to view the parent and create children for it or even create a parent and the children at the same time. And there's a Gantt chart page for project management–type tracking and a guided process page for multiple-step processes and there's a data management page template specifically for viewing and editing data collections like Excel spreadsheets. 14:50 Nikita: You mentioned that there's a design system behind all this. How is this used, and how does the customer benefit from it? Joe: Redwood comprises both a design system and a development system. The design system has a series of steps that we follow here at Oracle and can suggest that you, our customers and partners, can follow as well. This includes understanding the problem, articulating the vision for the page and the application (what it should do), identifying the proper Redwood page templates to use, adding detail and refining the design and then using a number of different mechanisms, including PowerPoint or Figma design tools to specify the design for development, and then monitor engagement in the real world. These are the steps that we follow here at Oracle. The Redwood development process starts with learning how to use Redwood components and templates using the documentation and other content from redwood.oracle.com and Visual Builder Studio. Then it's about understanding the design created by the design team, learning more about components and templates for your application, specifically the ones you're going to use, how they work, and how they work together. Then developing your application using Visual Builder Studio Designer, and finally improving and refining your application. Now, right now, as I mentioned, telemetry is available to us here at Oracle so we can get a sense of the feedback on the pages of how components are being used and where time is being spent, and we use that to tune the designs and components being used. That telemetry data may be available to customers in the future. Now, when you go to redwood.oracle.com, you can access the Redwood pattern book that shows you in detail all the different page templates that are available: smart search page, data grid, welcome page, dashboard landing page, and so on, and you can select these and read more about them as well as the actual design specifications that were used to build the pages—defining what they do and what they respond to. They provide a lot of detailed information about the templates and components, how they work and how they're intended to be used. 16:45 Lois: That's a lot of great resources available. But what if I don't have access to Visual Builder Studio Designer? Can I still see how Redwood looks and behaves? Joe: Well, if you go to redwood.oracle.com, you can log in and work with the Redwood reference application, which is a live application working with live data. It was created to show off the various page templates and components, their look and feel and functionality from the Redwood design and development systems. This is an order management application, so you can do things like view filtered pending orders, create new orders, manage orders, and view information about customers and inventory. It uses the different page templates to show you how the application can perform. 17:23 Nikita: I assume there are common aspects to how these page templates are designed, built, and intended to be used. Is that a good way to begin understanding how to work with them? Becoming familiar with their common properties and functionality? Joe: Absolutely! Good point! All pages have titles, and most have primary and secondary actions that can be triggered through a variety of GUI events, like clicking a button or a link or selecting something in a list or a table. The transactional page templates include validation groups that validate whether the data is correct before it is submitted, as well as a message dialog that can pop up if there are unsaved changes and someone tries to leave the page. All the pages can use variables to display information or set properties and can easily display specific contextual information about records that have been retrieved, like adding the Order Number or Customer Name and Number to the page title or section headers. 18:13 Lois: If I were a developer, I'd be really excited to get started! So, let's say I'm a developer. What's the best way to begin learning about Redwood, Joe? Joe: A great place to start learning about the Redwood design and development system is at the redwood.oracle.com page I mentioned. We have many different pages that describe the philosophy and fundamental basis for Redwood, the ideas and intent behind it, and how we're using it here at Oracle. It also has a list of all the different page templates and components you can use and a link to the Redwood reference application where you can sign in and try it yourself. In addition, we at Oracle University offer a course called Design and Develop Redwood Applications, and in there, we have both lecture content as well as hands-on practices where you build a lightweight version of the Redwood reference application using data from the Fusion apps application, as well as the pages that I talked about: the welcome page, detail pages, transactional pages, and the dashboard landing page.  And you'll see how those pages are designed and constructed while building them yourself.  It's very important though to take one of the free Visual Builder Developer courses first: either Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio and/or Develop Fusion Applications Using Visual Builder Studio before you try to work through the practices in the Redwood course because it uses a lot of Visual Builder Designer technology.  You'll get a lot more out of the Redwood practices if you understand the basics of Visual Builder Studio first. The Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio course is probably a better place to start unless you know for a fact you will be focusing on extending Oracle Fusion Applications using Visual Builder Studio. Now, a lot of the content is the same between the two courses as they share much of the same technology and architectures. 19:53 Lois: Ok, so Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio and Develop Fusion Applications Using Visual Builder Studio…all on mylearn.oracle.com and all free for anyone who wants to take them, right? Joe: Yes, exactly. And the free Redwood learning path leads to an Associate certification. While our courses are a great place to start in preparing for your certification exam, they are not, of course, by themselves sufficient to pass and you will want to study and be familiar with the redwood.oracle.com content as well. The learning path is free, but you do have to pay for the certification exam. 20:29 Nikita: Thanks for those tips, Joe, and we appreciate you joining us today. Joe: Thanks for having me! Lois: Join us next week when we'll discuss how model-based development is still alive and well today. Until next time, this is Lois Houston… Nikita: And Nikita Abraham, signing off! 20:45 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. We'd also love it if you would take a moment to rate and review us on your podcast app. See you again on the next episode of the Oracle University Podcast.

Few developers can boast careers spanning more than 4 decades, but today's guest, William Volk has developed games for virtually every platform released, covering every genre, including strategy, RPG, adventures, educational titles, puzzle games, and more. Sit back and enjoy the insights, memories, and experience of a true legend of the industry! Recorded October 2023 Get us on your mobile device: Android:  https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly92aWRlb2dhbWVuZXdzcm9vbXRpbWVtYWNoaW5lLmxpYnN5bi5jb20vcnNz iOS:      https://podcasts.apple.com/de/podcast/video-game-newsroom-time-machine And if you like what we are doing here at the podcast, don't forget to like us on your podcasting app of choice, YouTube, and/or support us on patreon! https://www.patreon.com/VGNRTM Send comments on twitter @videogamenewsr2 Or Instagram https://www.instagram.com/vgnrtm Or videogamenewsroomtimemachine@gmail.com Links: https://www.anagramquest.com/ https://www.mobygames.com/person/3264/william-d-volk/ He Put in a Bar, in the Back of His Car - https://youtu.be/pEQ_VLo4pBY?si=mw5p8i7-dlDo5-Zp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestake_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromemco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalon_Hill https://www.nytimes.com/1985/03/24/jobs/the-computer-telecommuters-say-theres-no-workplace-like-home.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Minsky https://www.mobygames.com/game/7390/ports-of-call/ https://www.mobygames.com/company/3165/aegis-interactive-entertainment/ https://www.macintoshrepository.org/6195-mac-challenger Infinite Loop - https://youtu.be/clxpPQbj234?si=aN1f215CSDnRmkVj https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LightWave_3D https://www.mobygames.com/game/9222/the-manhole/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperCard https://www.mobygames.com/game/1219/return-to-zork/ https://www.mobygames.com/game/44036/cosmic-osmo/ https://www.mobygames.com/company/434/cyan-worlds-inc/ https://www.mobygames.com/game/39698/rodneys-funscreen/ https://youtu.be/yZbJL5Egyzs?si=abJ5FJ_CS9O-wZju https://www.mobygames.com/company/42078/lightspan-inc/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realtime_Associates https://kidscreen.com/2001/10/01/lightspan-20011001/ https://psxdatacenter.com/games/U/L/LSP-010360.html https://www.gamezone.com/news/wayans_brothers_the_dozens_announced_at_e3/ https://www.pgconnects.com/hong-kong/speakers/william-volk/ https://www.gamedeveloper.com/production/william-volk-veteran-game-developer-mobile-pioneer https://apps.apple.com/us/app/trump-dump/id1070999857 https://www.apple.com/de/tv-pr/originals/extrapolations/ https://www.theclimatetrail.com/ https://www.calstate.edu/attend/student-services/Pages/esports.aspx https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Oscar-Clark/dp/1138428302 https://www.mobygames.com/game/52384/controller/ https://www.gamedeveloper.com/production/why-johnny-can-t-ship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act Copyright Karl Kuras

Ep 228The Verge: Apple says the iPhone 15's battery got better — but won't say exactly howsdw: After some time with the Vision Pro I think I've arrived on a judgment of it being super impressive, but not a useful device to me. I think I'll be returning it this week.The Verge: Apple fans are starting to return their Vision ProsVision Pro Value Poll Results: $500–$1000 or Nothing - TidBITSJordi Bruin: Here's a better comparison of how much Personas improved between visionOS 1.0 and 1.1.AppleInsider:Developers have begun offering insight into how their apps are performing on the Apple Vision ProApp Store approves fake copy of LastPass password managerDisney and Epic Games to Create Expansive and Open Games and Entertainment Universe Connected to Fortnite - The Walt Disney CompanyThe Eclectic Light Company: Magic, lipo and testing for Universal binariesApple still has a Mac audio bug after more than 20 yearsApple Announces 'Groundbreaking' New Security Protocol for iMessageIntroducing Apple Sports, a new app for sports fansPanic releases Prompt 3GitHub - lra/mackup: Keep your application settings in sync (OS X/Linux)The 8-Bit Guy: How the Apple 1 computer works.The 8-Bit Guy: How the Apple || Works!Retronauts Episode 126: A deep dive into HyperCard and MystJames Smith: The Downfall Of Modern PodcastsZahvalniceSnimano 23.2.2024.Uvodna muzika by Vladimir Tošić, stari sajt je ovde.Logotip by Aleksandra Ilić.Artwork epizode by Saša Montiljo, njegov kutak na Devianartu40 x 34 cmulje /oil on canvas2024.

Welcome to Dev Game Club, where this week we continue our series of one-off episodes about games that featured rotoscoping, turning to 1989's Prince of Persia. We set it in its time and discuss its publisher and author before talking about the game proper. Dev Game Club looks at classic video games and plays through them over several episodes, providing commentary. Sections played: To levels 4 (Tim) and 8 (Brett) Issues covered: the series hook, games from 1989, rotoscoping, similarities to Tomb Raider, tiles and metrics, a more systemic/discretized game, precision and replay, figuring out the level enough to know where to save, that speedrunning feeling, do you ever wish you could rewind time, requiring more game due to mechanics, having to learn the whole game, the feeling of running and jumping, the tension of animation and input, multiple inputs, the intertwining of animation and design, the feeling of swashbuckling, the great feeling, action as character and commitment, wondering how many people finished the game, the punishing feeling, checkpointing, punch the eagle, the great feel of parrying, pushing through the enemies, tells, the approaches of different guards, cinematic combat, difficulty in text adventures and player appeal, chipping away at knowledge, adding drama, resources and the doppelganger, level design and reuse, animating bits of the world, his books, mixing up the skeleton. Games, people, and influences mentioned or discussed: Another World, Jordan Mechner, Broderbund Software, Populous, Game Boy, Super Mario Land, Tetris, Ghosts and Goblins, Sega, Golden Axe, Shinobi, SimCiy, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Ultima (series), Star Trek, Final Fantasy II, Castlevania III, Print Shop, Choplifter, Karateka, Lode Runner, Hypercard, The Last Express, Agatha Christie, Tomb Raider, Triple Click, Plague Tale: Innocence, Dark Souls, Jamie Griesemer, Halo, Mario 64, 1001 Arabian Nights, Seventh Voyage of Sinbad, Errol Flynn, Indiana Jones, Civilization, Robin Hood, Captain Blood, Daffy Duck, MegaMan (series), Kirk Hamilton, Jake Gyllenhaal, Ben Kingsley, Final Fantasy VI, Aaron Evers, Mark Garcia. Next time: Another rotoscoped classic Links: Making Prince of Persia June: 1:01:00 or thereabouts Twitch: brettdouville or timlongojr, instagram:timlongojr, Twitter: @devgameclub Discord DevGameClub@gmail.com

In #31, Michael Sikand (@michaelsikand) and Simran Sandhu (@_simmy_) discuss Hypercard and Integral. Backed with $15M in funding led by Sam Altman and a blockbuster partnership with American Express, Hypercard is building the first credit card backed by your employer. The company was started by two Gen Z business prodigies–Niko Ioannou and Marc Baghadjian–who've already had tremendous success. Next up is Integral, a data certification startup in the healthcare industry. Founded by young guns Shubh Sinha and John Kuhn, Integral removes the need for teams of consultants to properly anonymize the sensitive patient data healthcare firms need to run their businesses. They have raised $6M for their software platform that complies with industry's regulations and removes the middleman providing better data to an industry more reliant on it than others. 0:00 Intro 01:25 Story of Hypercard 21:54 Story of Integral Follow the show on IG: @ourfuturepod Message Michael on Twitter: @michaelsikand Message Simmy on Twitter: @_simmy_ Our Future Podcast is a production of Morning Brew. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ep 227The DP JourneyiPhone 15: H.265 Vs ProRes! which is BETTER? Max Seelemann:Okay, I just couldn't let this rest in my head. I've done a few simple simulationsApple's Proposed Changes Reject the Goals of the DMA — SpotifyMozilla says Apple's new browser rules are “as painful as possible” for FirefoxPick Your Poisonous App StoreMiguel de Icaza:The issue is that these developers wanted one thing (lower fees), but lobbied for “freedom of stores” and “external payment systems”They got what they asked for, which is not what they wanted.Talos Tsui:All these people being mad about Apple's requirement of the 3rd party EU App Store needing €1m letter of credit…MKBHD: Apple Vision Pro Unboxing! The Verge:Apple Vision Pro review: magic, until it's notBrian Tong:Apple Vision Pro EPIC Review - Is Spatial Computing The Future? / 10:02Casey Neistat:Vision Pro isn't just great, it's the single greatest piece of tech i've ever usedApple announces more than 600 new apps built for Apple Vision ProBen Thompson (Stratechery) on The Apple Vision ProBILT 3D Immersive InstructionsWhy Tim Cook Is Going All In on the Apple Vision ProKen Case:We're making Apple Vision Pro available as standard equipment for every OmniGroup employee.Researcher forces a visionOS kernel panic on Apple Vision Pro release dayDon't Lose Your $3,500 Apple Vision Pro, You Can't Track Its LocationiFixitVision Pro Teardown: Behind the Complex and Creepy Tech Peter finds Iron Man's EDITH Scene from SPIDER-MAN: FAR FROM HOME (2019) Kickstarting Project Tapestry • The BreakroomNO WIRES: How the Apple Airport Changed EverythingAlex C: the original Mac UI devs noticed and solved so many problems in 1986 that more recent Web 2.0+ frontend devs just ignoreNanoRaptor:This is as far as computing should have ever been allowed to get.Design chief Jony Ive wanted combined MacBook Air and Pro linesRobin Bradshaw:A fantastic job opportunity here, a German train company are looking for a Windows 3.11 AdministratorTechSpot:German railway seeks IT admin to manage MS-DOS and Windows 3.11 systemsHyperCard Simulator imports and runs your classic HyperCard stacks.Ћирилички фонтови на поклон | РНИДСZahvalniceSnimano 9.2.2024.Uvodna muzika by Vladimir Tošić, stari sajt je ovde.Logotip by Aleksandra Ilić.Artwork epizode by Saša Montiljo, njegov kutak na Devianartu.54 x 44 cmulje /oil on canvas2023.

Richard talks with HTMX creator Carson Gross about some of the ways in which modern web development has arguably regressed over the past 15 or so years, as well as Hypertext, Hypermedia, HyperCard, HyperView, HyperScript, and even some other topics that don't have hyper in the name.

In our new episode, we delve into an enriching conversation with Ole Lutjens, exploring the fascinating evolution of design, both in his personal journey and the current technological landscape. Ole shared captivating anecdotes, starting from his childhood fascination with Commodore 64, where coding ignited his passion for computer graphics. His pivotal time at an art school in Germany saw a fusion of art and technology, experimenting with Hypercard on Macintosh computers, sparking his interest in motion graphics.Transitioning to the United States, Ole witnessed the shift from text-based interfaces to mouse-driven interactions, contributing to simulated computer interfaces for television crime shows during his college years. Throughout our discussion, we navigated through the parallels between the early computing era and today's AI landscape, highlighting the importance for designers to adapt to a more probabilistic interface approach due to AI's influence.Ole Lutjens currently serves as the VP of Product Design and Research at Udemy. During our conversation, he emphasized the challenges and opportunities brought forth by AI, emphasizing its role as a skill set and discussing the evolving nature of design interfaces in this technological age.In this episode we talk about:How early experiences blending art and technology shape your approach to design leadership today?The transition from being a designer to managing your own business? How did this shift influence your perspective on design at scale?The challenges faced in achieving a cohesive visual experience for Disney content, particularly concerning collaboration across different divisions?How to navigate the balance between emotional resonance and content-centric interfaces when designing for brands like Disney, BMW, and Instagram?What specific design philosophies or strategies did Disney Plus employ to prioritize clarity, simplicity, and swift content delivery in its user experience?In what ways should we foresee AI becoming a game-changer in content creation and learning experiences, especially within platforms like Udemy?Looking ahead, how is the evolving role of AI impacting creative teams and product development in the future?And plenty more!Thank you very much for your time and knowledge, Ole!

Sure Clippy may have died over a decade ago (RIP, little buddy), but some things in Microsoft Office just can't seem to be killed off, no matter how hard fintech tries (*cough* Excel *cough*). Are spreadsheets simply too sticky to die? And who's the new fintech company trying to make them marketable again?  It's time for another round of “Not Fintech Investment Advice,” and Alex is joined by the man, the myth, the legend himself, Simon Taylor.  This week, they're breaking down Aleph's bold plan to revitalize spreadsheets. With major companies like Notion and Zapier adopting Aleph, they must be on to something… right?  Then, Alex and Simon dissect the app that's helping musicians and artists bring predictability to their cash flow using biweekly payment options. With the rise of fractured income streams and the growing creator economy, can we expect fintech to find a product wedge here? Plus, stay tuned to hear Alex and Simon's hot takes on Cloverly's climate tech solution, Hypercard's employer-sponsored credit card gambit, and their predictions for how the open banking tech stack will shape up in the coming years.    Sign up for Alex's Fintech Takes newsletter for the latest insightful analysis on fintech trends, along with a heaping pile of pop culture references and copious footnotes. Every Monday and Thursday: https://workweek.com/brand/fintech-takes/   And for more exclusive insider content, don't forget to check out my YouTube page. 00:06:16 - The Future of Spreadsheets: Aleph 00:13:28 - HiFi Cracks Open the Data for Musicians' Royalty Streams 00:24:44 - Cloverly's Climate Financing Solutions 00:32:34 - Hypercard's Consumer Credit Card Powered by Employers 00:42:21 - Manifesting Fintech Ideas: The Evolution of Open Banking Follow Simon: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sytaylor/ Substack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sytaylor/

What is your tech stack of choice these days? Have you tried the HOWL stack? Do you have front end clients that are bloated, have huge bundle sizes and have complicated tooling? Are you having to write business logic on the server AND the front end? The HOWL stack might be just for you. The HOWL stack is Hypermedia On Whatever (backend) you'd Like. Hypertext you say? Yeah you know like text displayed on a computer screen that has references to other text. Sound familiar? It should, the most popular way to view hypertext today is via the World Wide Web which is itself the canonical hypermedia system. Today we are joined by Carson Gross to discuss what Hypermedia systems are, concepts like Representational State Transfer (REST), Hypermedia As The Engine of Application State (HATEOS), and his library, HTMX, which is in direct response to how complicated web development has become. Carson has been the software industry for over 20 years and has his Masters of Computer Science from Stanford. He started programming in grade school in Apple Basic and then, later, with HyperCard and has worked in many languages like Java, Ruby on Rails and Python. He is very active in the open source community responsible for projects like intercooler.js, hyperscript and the main library of discussion today, HTMX. He also teaches part time at Montana State University, is writing a book on Hypermedia systems, and currently runs his own software development shop, Big Sky Software, which finds hot, new industry trends and then builds the opposite of that. Connect with Carson: Big Sky Software About LinkedIn Twitter Show notes and helpful resources: HTMX Library Hypermedia.Systems book Hateoas Essay Two states of every programmer meme Components of a Hypermedia System How Did REST Come To Mean The Opposite of REST? Uniform Interface of REST Mother of All HTMX code bases → real world HTMX port html.org/examples → active search Locality of behavior The Grug Brained Developer Hyperview - server driven mobile app framework - by Adam Stepinski Building something cool or solving interesting problems? Want to be on this show? Send me an email at jointhepodcast@unfilteredbuild.com Podcast produced by Unfiltered Build - dream.design.develop.

On this episode of For Mac Eyes Only: Mike and Eric discuss some of the top headlines in the weeks since WWDC including a whether Siri is a “disaster”, Apple's new Game Porting Toolkit, other new features coming to macOS Sonoma, the end of Photo Stream, and a new linking feature coming to Apple Notes. In “Listener” Feedback: Mike asks how to share select information in your contact card.

Sometimes it's difficult to envision what a new category of products will be used for as Apple's marketing department discovered. Jeff Walden takes an extremely database-centric view of HyperCard in Macworld, April 1988, so I hope he found Activision's Reports! utility. ADDmotion, a VideoWorks/Director/Flash-like animation extension for HyperCard, is a ton of fun to play with. Bill Atkinson mentions developing new sorting and compression algorithms (1h24m57s) to “achieve [performance he deems acceptable] on the Macintosh”. I was unable to dig up the patents he mentioned. He also spoke to CHM about the necessity of saving changes on-the-fly when working with large HyperCard stacks on small machines. Bill Atkinson talks about inspiration, the birth of HyperCard and the fight over MacBASIC. (Why bother with guests if you're just going to talk overtop of them constantly?) The reasons for HyperCard's color extensions poor speed explained by M. Uli Kusterer (FISH!). Pro tip: using the word “capabilities” eight times in a 1,500 word article is fatiguing.

Matt Martin has always been a computer nerd, even way back in Elementary School, learning to use a Mac and learning Hypercard. In Middle School, he discovered the internet and programming in HTML - and he was hooked. That said, he didn't grow up around tech folks and eventually got into public policy and went to law school. After being a litigator for a while, he decided to ditch the law industry, move to the Bay Area and get into tech. Outside of tech, he is married with 2.5 year old twin girls. They live in downtown San Francisco, and they love to go on bike rides together.Matt considers himself a productivity nerd, and is always looking for ways to improve his workflow. At a prior role, he was focusing on individual optimization to schedules. And what he realized, is that time is not an individual problem - but a team problem to be solved.This is the creation story of Clockwise.SponsorsCipherstashTreblleCAST AI FireflyTursoMemberstackLinksWebsite: https://www.getclockwise.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/voxmatt/Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/code-story/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

It's that time again! This special guest episode features the wonderful Scot Hacker, author of The BeOS Bible. We talk about the past, present and future in this great extended episode covering BeOS, photography and writing books. Content warning: there are two very brief anecdotes that refer to extreme violence (in context), neither of which involved the guest or any of the co-hosts. Good Morning Andrew! 00:00:00 Andrew overslept a little today...

Welcome to Dev Game Club, where this week we continue our series on Plundered Hearts, the pirate romance text adventure, and also turning to a short bonus discussion about Twine games. We mostly discuss our takeaways before turning to the bonus discussion. Dev Game Club looks at classic video games and plays through them over several episodes, providing commentary. Podcast breakdown: 0:18 Takeaways 51:02 Break 51:12 Bonus Discussion Issues covered: text adventure length, an introductory adventure and the audience it sought, being unable to market, a diversion to Rogue Legacy 2, finding a parser bug, game pack-ins, losing a thing to the parser, a garter on a crocodile, waiting and responding to player choice, playtesting internally, not knowing to wait, inventory combination vs revisiting every location you've missed, failure-driven games, piecing clues together through trial and error, choosing your verbs carefully, whether there are multiple solutions, the hostility of a trial-and-error design, subverting your genre through mechanics, Tim's life as a series of flow charts, a structure still used today, flow charts for puzzle steps, working back from a problem to the solution, responding to your players, using good writing to provide a rich experience, interesting work coming from diverse sources, being playful with text, Twine as an environment, what you can do with good writing and simple tools, text effects, the approachability of the tools, personal games, an experimental game and interpretation, the structure of "howling dogs," simulation aspects, commentary on games, the default response and the "that's interesting," poetic/evocative/allusive tone, being in a browser and the affordances, a commentary on the games industry, the anxiety-provoking games, feeling seen, being exactly spot-on, a learning tool, the value of constraints. Games, people, and influences mentioned or discussed: Dark Souls, Zork, Infocom, Byte, Nibble, EGM, Nintendo Power, Rogue Legacy 2, Halo, LucasArts, Day of the Tentacle, Emily Short, Counterfeit Monkey, Tim Schafer, Dave Grossman, Dungeons & Dragons, MYST, Space Quest, King's Quest, Reed Knight, Ron Gilbert, Peter Pan, Errol Flynn, Geena Davis, Cutthroat Island, Matthew Modine, Activision, A Series of Unfortunate Events, Chris Klimas, Hypercard, howling dogs, Porpentine, The Writer Will Do Something, Matthew Seiji Burns, Tom Bissell, Game Developer magazine, Magical Wasteland, IF Comp, Andrew Plotkin, Meg Jayanth, Richard Hofmeier, Papers Please, Hot Pockets, Mountain Dew, Warhammer, Frog Fractions, Universal Paperclips, Frank Lantz, HP Lovecraft, Melville, Shakespeare, Mark Laidlaw, Eliza, Zachtronics, Kirk Hamilton, Aaron Evers, Mark Garcia.  Errors! It was not Papers, Please (which is also excellent and by Lucas Pope), but Cart Life that was by Richard Hofmeier Links: When You Say One Thing and Mean Your Motherboard Next time: ...?! Twitch: brettdouville or timlongojr, instagram:timlongojr, Twitter: @timlongojr and @devgameclub DevGameClub@gmail.com

Array Cast - December 23, 2022 Show NotesThanks to Bob Therriault, Adám Brudzewsky, Marshall Lochbaum and John Earnest for gathering these links:[01] 00:02:00 Naming the APLNAATOT podcast twitter https://twitter.com/a_brudz/status/1607653845445873664[02] 00:03:54 John Earnest Arraycast episode 41 https://www.arraycast.com/episodes/episode41-john-earnest Michal Wallace Arraycast episode 40 https://www.arraycast.com/episodes/episode40-michal-wallace[03] 00:04:20 John's website https://beyondloom.com/[04] 00:05:10 iKe https://github.com/JohnEarnest/ok/tree/gh-pages/ike[05] 00:07:02 oK http://johnearnest.github.io/ok/index.html[06] 00:10:20 iKe Vector article https://vector.org.uk/a-graphical-sandbox-for-k-2/[07] 00:10:39 Lindenmayer fractals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-system[08] 00:15:57 k programming language https://aplwiki.com/wiki/K[09] 00:16:40 turtle graphics https://docs.python.org/3/library/turtle.html[10] 00:17:44 Swift Playgrounds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swift_Playgrounds Bret Victor http://worrydream.com/ Processing programming language https://processing.org/ Arduino https://www.arduino.cc/[11] 00:19:27 Dzaima APL -https://github.com/dzaima/APL/blob/master/APLP5/docs Dzaima BQN - https://github.com/dzaima/BQN/blob/master/app/readme.md[12] 00:25:08 Arthur Whitney https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Whitney_(computer_scientist)[13] 00:25:30 APL wiki Naming https://aplwiki.com/wiki/The_name_APL Adin Falkoff https://aplwiki.com/wiki/Adin_Falkoff[14] 00:27:48 Dyalog https://aplwiki.com/wiki/Dyalog_APL Dyadic https://aplwiki.com/wiki/Dyalog_Ltd. Zylog processor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zilog[15] 00:30:32 Special k https://beyondloom.com/tools/specialk.html Fragment shader https://www.khronos.org/opengl/wiki/Fragment_Shader GLSL shader language https://learnopengl.com/Getting-started/Shaders[16] 00:33:25 NVIDIA https://learnopengl.com/Getting-started/Shaders[17] 00:37:00 Decker https://beyondloom.com/decker/index.html Lil programming language https://beyondloom.com/decker/lil.html macPaint https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacPaint[18] 00:39:06 Interface builder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interface_Builder Visual Basic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_Basic Lua programming language https://www.lua.org/ q programming language https://aplwiki.com/wiki/Q[19] 00:44:29 APL# https://aplwiki.com/wiki/APL-sharp[20] 00:45:08 Rescript programming language https://rescript-lang.org/[21] 00:47:10 Niladic functions https://aplwiki.com/wiki/Niladic_function[22] 00:48:30 HyperCard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperCard HyperTalk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperTalk[23] 00:54:36 JavaScript programming language https://www.javascript.com/[24] 00:57:21 MacOS system 6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_6[25] 01:02:12 Excel spreadsheet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Excel[26] 01:04:02 J viewmat https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Studio/Viewmat[27] 01:05:40 regex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_expression[28] 01:06:10 Nick Psaris Arraycast episode 42 embedding languages https://www.arraycast.com/episodes/episode42-nick-psaris-q[29] 01:07:00 Python programming language https://www.python.org/[30] 01:18:21 Haskell programming language https://www.haskell.org/[31] 01:22:50 Myst video game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myst[32] 01:23:32 Decktember https://itch.io/jam/decktember

Ronald Spitzer was a corner stone of both New World Computing making sure games like Might and Magic and Nuclear War hit store shelves worldwide before moving on to running Electronic Art's affiliated label program. Recorded in September 2021. Get us on your mobile device: Android: https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly92aWRlb2dhbWVuZXdzcm9vbXRpbWVtYWNoaW5lLmxpYnN5bi5jb20vcnNz iOS: https://podcasts.apple.com/de/podcast/video-game-newsroom-time-machine And if you like what we are doing here at the podcast, don't forget to like us on your podcasting app of choice, YouTube, and/or support us on patreon! https://www.patreon.com/VGNRTM Send comments on twitter @videogamenewsr2 Or Instagram https://www.instagram.com/vgnrtm Or videogamenewsroomtimemachine@gmail.com Links: https://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,4662/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Computing https://www.mobygames.com/game/might-and-magic-book-one-secret-of-the-inner-sanctum https://www.mobygames.com/company/new-world-computing-inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Arts https://www.mobygames.com/game/macintosh/might-and-magic-book-one-secret-of-the-inner-sanctum/screenshots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_%26_Allies https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2008/08/the-story-of-ea-and-the-pirate-genesis-development-kit/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperCard https://www.mobygames.com/game/nuclear-war https://www.mobygames.com/game-group/earl-weaver-baseball-series https://www.mobygames.com/game-group/tony-la-russa-baseball-series https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_(console) https://www.linkedin.com/posts/ronaldspitzer_videogames-gaming-videogameindustry-activity-6846458561946558464-g3iw/ https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1994-02-01-fi-17840-story.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinesoft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SoftBank_Group

NOTE - Podcasts normally come out on Wednesdays, but as a favor to Intuiface - which is at this week's ISE trade show in Spain - I moved it up a day to coincide with the show's opening day ... The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT One of the big trends in the software world is the whole idea of no code development - the premise that both programmers and mere mortals can create applications without getting their typing fingers dirty and brains fried doing traditional computer programming. The proposition is that no code development platforms can cut out a lot of time and cost associated with pulling applications together, and also deal with the reality that good programmers are in high demand and therefore scarce. The French software firm Intuiface is in the interesting position of having offered a no code platform long before no code was a discussion point, so the folks there are a great resource for discussing the implications for the digital signage and interactive display market. I spoke with Geoff Bessin, the CMO and main voice for Intuiface, about the distinctions between no code and low code development platforms, and how they differ from the simple drag and drop, what you see is what you get user interfaces that are common in digital signage content management systems. We also dig into the benefits, the limitations, and more than anything, why you should know and care about no code. Subscribe to this podcast: iTunes * Google Play * RSS TRANSCRIPT Geoff, thank you for joining me. Can you give me the rundown first on what Intuiface is all about?  Geoff Bessin: Will do, Dave, thank you for having me. So Intuiface is a no-code platform dedicated to the creation of interactive digital content. That includes digital signage, but really it can anything in the venue. It could be a museum exhibition, could be a sales pitch for a movie sales team, could be anything at a trade show, something in a real estate office, et cetera. So you create it, you deploy it, you can do analytics with it. It's all good. And the company is based in France, correct?  Geoff Bessin: We are headquartered in a town called Labège, which is right outside Toulouse in France. Although I'm not, but it's funny, my name is Geoffrey Besson, so both my first and last name look French. So people always assume it's French, but that's not the case. I'm in Boston. Can you speak a lick of French? Geoff Bessin: Oui. Yes.  Good for you! I wanted to talk about no-code software, cause you guys have been no-code before people were even using that term and no-code is one of these trends, just like headless CMS, that seems to be bubbling up and maybe people don't understand a lot about it yet. Geoff Bessin: Yeah, you could go back to the 80s and find things like HyperCard where you were enabling non-developers to create an application of some sorts. So it goes back a long way, but in terms of a movement, generating notice, gaining investment and having companies spend money on it, it's only been the past few years.  I can tell you that statistics are now saying that the market size, the amount of money being spent on no-code software used to create apps is almost $14 billion. It's a lot of money being pumped into these apps. And in fact, more than 65% of apps are now created using no-code tools. So more than 50%, more than half of apps are being built with no-code software. It is the predominant means of delivering applications these days.  What's the distinction between no-code and low-code, because I've heard both terms. Geoff Bessin: There's no formal distinction. You can't point at it and go, “Oh, this one's no-code” like you just went over the line. But the idea is that with low-code, there are back doors. There are means to enhance, to extend, to facilitate integration that might involve a little bit of coding. Even that coding could be simplified based on maybe either a scripting language that is native to the tool or a public scripting language like Ruby.  Whereas no-code is just 100%, you're not going to see code anywhere, and so you are in a way limited to the sandbox provided by the no-code platform, what it is you're able to deliver is limited by what you can piece together with the Lego blocks of that platform. no-code gives you those little back doors to branch yourself out.  So what does it mean for development? Does it distance or mediate the need for application developers completely, and just any old end-user can produce an application without having to engage developers or is it more something that accelerates the development process and just gets some cost and time out of the way? Geoff Bessin: I think that question brings us to who's doing it, and why are they doing it? As I mentioned, no-code has exploded recently, and it is due to a set of developments that have driven application development to what is now called the “citizen developer.”  Trends such as a shortage of developers, it's not that we're trying to get rid of them. It's that there's not enough. I saw one statistic that back in 2020, there were 1.2 million unfilled developer jobs in the United States, just the US but 1.2 million developer jobs unfilled in the US and colleges and universities were only cranking out about 400,000 developers. There's a shortage. So it's not that we don't want them, we don't have them. What do you do about that? There was also COVID, which has greatly accelerated investment in these no-code platforms, because everything moved online, and when everything moved online, everything needed to be digitized and companies realized we have to move now but we don't have enough resources, so how the heck are we going to digitize these things?  And then there's also tangential, but influential, the fact that even in our own home, we're not coders, but we are programmers. If I'm working with my Nest thermostat, that's programming. I just got a puppy and they have these apps that you can then program to see how many steps they've taken and how much water they drink, that's programming, and the digital native is used to controlling their environment digitally. There are tools out there that enable them to realize their ideas as an application, and somebody has to build it because there's not enough developers to go around. That's what really kicked the no-code market in the butt. What we're seeing subsequently is that the developer shortage is being filled by these citizen developers producing applications, maybe for personal use, maybe for internal employee use, maybe for customer us, it depends. Those developers are now being transitioned to work on larger projects, more intricate projects. They have more time arguably to focus on the big tickets stuff that still needs the hardcore development, offloading their responsibility from the simpler things that can now be handled by that citizen developer. Are there trade offs that you have to accept, to use no-code instead of just doing your own thing? Geoff Bessin: Certainly. There are obvious advantages, there's speed and there's costs benefits. There's a big productivity boost, but of course there's trade offs. I like this notion of Legos. You have these prebuilt blocks and this is a finite number of block options that you can combine in an infinite number of ways. At the end of the day, you're still limited to those blocks, right? And so if I'm using a no-code platform and I need a block that doesn't exist, I'm stuck.  Now, I suppose if it's a low-code platform, depending on what I need to achieve,okay, maybe I can put something together if I have the skill, maybe I don't, but if I don't have the skill or if the opportunity with the platform doesn't exist, I am limited, and I think that might be the fundamental challenge is what can I do? What can I realize? Cause recognize that a lot of these platforms are built to be generic, to address sort of breadth, not always depth, and so that can be a challenge. You are also, of course, relying on them to be responsible for performance and reliability. You are handing over that duty, that responsibility to the provider, the no-code platform. I hope they're doing a good job. Because it's out of my hands, I can't control that, and so those are the big risks: can I achieve exactly what I want or am I making compromises? Am I achieving the level of performance? My ability to deploy? My ability to collect data analytics? My ability to manage that deployment?  There's 150-200 platforms across the spectrum offering no-code and low-code options. You might be making some compromises on the way, certainly are, but as I shared with you, 65% of apps are now built with no-code platforms. So companies have decided it's worth the risk.  What's the distinction between no-code and what you see is what you get (WYSIWYG) user interfaces? Geoff Bessin: No-code, I think it's more of a connotation, not a denotation. I think you could argue that a lot of no-code platforms are WYSIWYG. Intuiface is a no-code platform, it's a drag and drop tool. It's a WYSIWYG. The connotation of WYSIWYG, it could be for a developer. It could be for anybody of any skill set. So it's more of a generic catchall for applications enabled to create other applications by dragging components and you can see what they look like at design time and development time.  No-code connotes the non-developer, the citizen developer that you don't have coding skills and you're not expected to have those skills. So I think that's it.  You sent me a white paper that kind of goes into this and you're making the argument that while no-code is out there, it's exploding and growing and everything else, there's really no application, I think you called it a ‘no-code blind spot' in terms of in-venue applications. What do you mean by that?  Geoff Bessin: So let's define in-venue because that is exactly our contention. In-venue is an encapsulation of any digital deployment out of the home. It could be digital signage, could be all those things I mentioned with Intuiface as well, the museum exhibition, the sales presentation, real estate office, et cetera. It is out of the home. It is not my phone though. It is not my PC. I'm not browsing the web at home. I'm out of my home, I'm in a venue and there is some digital content trying to communicate to educate, to promote, to sell to me.  That domain has been, I think with the exception of Intuiface, untouched by the no-code movement. For sure, if you look at the landscape of companies delivering solutions to address the needs of the citizen developer, there is nothing out there addressing these in-venue deployments. It's all about web and mobile apps and some websites, that's it. So if you want to create digital signage, if you want to create that museum exhibition, the sales pitch, there is no option out there now, and which brings us David, I know you're going to want to ask this, which is, will, aren't all digital signage platforms, no-code? Which is great question, Dave, by the way... You are a psychic! Geoff Bessin: That's a yes, but, it is absolutely true that you don't write code, but there are certain expectations of a no-code platform that the traditional digital signage CMS cannot fulfill, and it's interesting if I take a step back, really by definition, it has always been the non-developer on the digital signage side, hasn't it? You buy a platform, there's a CMS, the user of the content management system is the content person. They're not coding anything. They're working with the CMS, they're assigning content to zones and they're day partying. By definition from day one, digital signage was always a non-developer domain, whereas web and mobile apps and these sorts of things were always the developer domain.  The no-code movement was, “Hey, this complicated stuff, we gotta make it simpler. We need the citizen developer involved.” So they brought no-code to the domain that started with developers, which I think is one of the explanations for why it didn't really come over to the in-venue side yet, because it was always non-coder users, but there are certain expectations of the no-code platform, that is not really in scope of the platform delivering in-venue content. A simple example, just to give you one would be the notion of context. To react to the user, react to the environment, in real time in that context, and do something as a result that is inherently this notion of logic. If this, then that. That's coding, right? It's got the whiff of coding and how do you do that? And there's a list of things we can discuss about what makes in-venue unique. But it requires the accommodation of additional concerns that are beyond the scope of what a traditional CMS does and that no other no-code platform does across the no-code spectrum.  I guess what you're saying in certain respects is you can develop a playlist, do all the basic functionality of a digital sign, you can target content and everything else, but the moment you get into a request to do something different, that's interactive, that as you say, maybe responds to triggers and so on, that gets a lot more complicated, and at that point you're putting in, if you're an end user, you're putting in a request to your reseller or to the software company directly saying, can you do this? And they'll say, yes, we can, but it's going to take this amount of time, this amount of money and, we can't get this to you for six months cause it's off of our roadmap or whatever… Is that one of the arguments you'd make?  Geoff Bessin: I would say that for sure. You see, a lot of companies have libraries. Here's our template library, here's our plugin library, here's our integration library. Oh, you want something we don't have? We can build that for you. Here's the cost. Here's how long it's going to take. That's one example. I can tell you that from a Intuiface perspective, we don't have any libraries. We haven't really prebuilt anything. Our paradigm is to enable integration with any web service, to create any UI, to integrate with any content management system, to have that ubiquity, which means that we don't have to build anything for our clients. The customer can do that. But it also means that, well, you better have a good idea and you better need to know what you. Because you're starting with a tabula rasa, but yes, that is certainly one good example of how you fulfill these sort of unique needs you might have thought about. I'll give you another example, which is retail point of sale. How would you build that thing? To me, that qualifies as an in-venue application. That's in the venue, right? I can order through a website, but do I want to put a website on a kiosk? It's a different domain. It's a different paradigm. It has different design requirements, different expectations, different issues about security, about being able to run potentially offline. But having to work with peripherals, having hyper-local context dependence, there are all of these concerns that will impact that user experience in the venue that may not be relevant or at all to a web experience. If I want to build that thing, how much flexibility am I going to have? Now there are companies like Grubber, which are pretty much pre-built everything, right? All you do is you push your menu into their back office system, and you're good to go. You just have to hope it does exactly what it is you want because you're constrained within the confines of what they offer for design, with the offer for business process, what they offer in terms of context, awareness, and reaction and if you need to make any kind of changes, you're dependent on them to make those changes, and that has a cost and a time penalty to it.  What kind of skillsets do you realistically need to use a no-code particularly in the context of Intuiface? I'm assuming the proposition is anybody can sit down, but you still have to plan out, you have to have some methodical thinking about what you want to do with what the decision tree is on all that stuff, right? Geoff Bessin: You do, and that gives me an opportunity to give you just a brief history of Intuiface because we were never a no-code company, that wasn't how we were oriented. The company was actually founded back in 2002. It was founded by a couple of PhDs with expertise in touch technology. And from day one, it was about bringing user experiences to a lot of it was, believe it or not, the defense industry, but also retail, touch-driven user experiences for something, to accomplish something. The company was always about the user experience.  At the end of the day, as great as your touch technology might be, nobody cares if it's not usable. If it doesn't make it easy to achieve some goal, and so Intuiface, when it was born it was all about the user experience, and in fact, most of its early hires were focused on that, on how to make something intuitive and that where the company name comes from, an intuitive interface. To make intuitive user experiences that we're driven by interaction like touch. What happened was we were servicing all of these organizations, again, a lot of defense, Intuiface is headquartered just outside the Toulouse, as i mentioned. So you have the big aerospace and defense industry located in Toulouse like Airbus. So a lot of those clients, but also retail, commerce. Focused on user experience, and it was hard to scale the business because you had this deep technical dependency underneath because it's driven by touch and we're going back 15 years, so expensive hardware, challenging technology, and at the same time, trying to come up with these really intuitive user interfaces, it was a challenge, and we decided internally, I say we, but I wasn't here yet. Intuiface decided internally that we need to come up with something that can accelerate our ability to deliver good user experiences on top of this touch technology. The company builds something called Intuikit, it was used internally by user experience experts, designers, and people good at aesthetics, people good at thinking about the customer. They were not developers. Ultimately, we decided this thing called Intuikit is pretty awesome, maybe that's our business, and so we're. It's a short story about how the software platform Intuiface was born. We were always about the user experience. It is our expectation that our users are experts in the users, creating intuitive interfaces, not In having any necessary knowledge about development. So that is our expectation, and that's what we think is appropriate. You need to be creative. You need to understand the user. You need to understand the domain. You don't have to worry about the platform you're building it on. That should not be your problem. You should be all about solving the customer's problem. I realize you work with a bunch of industries, but a lot of your activity is in digital signage. If I am an end-user and I'm using ACME digital signage software, can I use the Intuiface with it? Does it plug into it or are there restrictions? Do you have to go through door number one or door number two, you can't use both doors? Geoff Bessin: Probably, you can't do. Typically the content management system used by the DS platform is proprietary. It's a closed system. It doesn't have a published API. So we couldn't read from it. Intuiface conversely has its own runtime as well. We can run side by side. In fact, on Windows, we have the ability to run side by side with other applications, we have had customers who are not ready to transition off their existing DS investment. So they were sort of a cohabitating interactive Intuiface based content at one part of the screen and traditional DS content and others were cohabitating that screen. But normally no, that wouldn't be how one would do it.  Certainly Intuiface is positioned around interactivity. We believe that by definition, once you introduce interactivity and the need to be responsive and context, and to accommodate not just touch, but sensors and voice and computer vision, when you need to account for all of these things, you need to be very good at that if-when, right? And that notion of conditional responses to events which are completely typically outside the realm of the traditional DS platform. That's where we start, and then clients can decide, do I want these Intuiface to co-exist with this DS platform? Or do we need to make some sort of transition. If I'm an end-user and I start with Intuiface and have a series of interactive screens that are doing some sort of functionality, whatever it may be and then I decide, I want to also have an expanding network of “dumb screens” that are just running traditional digital signage content in some sort of a sequence. Can you do that too?  Geoff Bessin: Sure, the content doesn't know it's in a dumb playlist, right? The content is fine. Certainly you can do that. The Intuiface was born, solving the interactive problem. And it's interesting, Dave, because in the early days of selling our platform, digital signage was something else. You didn't touch signage. So our communication to the marketplace was not interactive signage. There wasn't such a thing. There was interactive content for kiosks. That was the world when we first walked in, you were touching something such as a table or a kiosk. There were touch screens, very expensive touch screens. You could be bound on a wall, never a perceptive pixel from a million years ago. Like those CNN screens and that sort of thing. You spend $2,500, you can have a touchscreen, but bylarge, it was kiosks and that sort of thing.  What happened was that they had this largely commoditized, digital signage space, hundreds of companies offering traditional digital signage and customers had iPhones in their pocket and they had iPads at home, and they started thinking about interactivity. They see the voting coverage on CNN and people tapping screens. So can you do that? That's why we started getting questions about traditional digital signage. Can you fulfill that as well? We were like yeah, we can, and over the years we developed additional capability to accommodate it.  The paradigm is still different. We don't have a traditional notion of a playlist for example, but you can create a playlist within Intuiface. We're using our Lego blocks, not just to build interactive content, but non-interactive content as well. You can do both.  So it was something you could do, but it's not your focus?  Geoff Bessin: I would say, we'res interactive first, but the traditional broadcast signage, and I don't mean this in a judgy way, it's not typically that complicated. So if it is a playlist of stuff, images, videos, documents, it's very easily done, but people very rarely come to us, Dave, with traditional first. They're coming to us because they need to solve an interactive need, and oh, by the way, long-term you can transition to traditional content as well. I agree that, the conventional side of digital signage, the meat potatoes, run this stuff at this time and these locations and all that is commoditized and pretty simple, and I always say that the complicated stuff is behind the scenes, the device management, the API integrations and all that sort of stuff. Are you at a level now where you can provide the building blocks, the Lego blocks to do the interactive piece, but also enable the end user to monitor and remotely manage all that?  Geoff Bessin: We do offer that, and in fact we offer both of what you mentioned, cause you also mentioned the API integration, we can accommodate that as well. On the device management side, certainly we have an awareness of the devices in the field and you can set up notifications if things are going wrong, that sort of thing, you can see what's running on those devices. On certain platforms, you can remotely update on runtime, that sort of thing. We're not averse to working with a device and platform management options, to collaborate with them in a deployment, but we do offer some of that. And with API integration, we've actually offered for six years. It's been a long time and it's one of those things, Dave, where, as I said, we weren't born with no-code. We were born worried about user experience and we realized we looked in the mirror and wen, oh, we're actually no-code.  We've been offering a software called API Explorer.  You can automatically create an integration, an integration with a web API without writing code And it is a real time integration reading from writing to that web API. It could be a back office system, ERP application, CRM application could be a database wrapped in an API, could be a device on the internet of things, all of these options can be integrated with a running Intuiface experienced by a non-developer, using API Explorer. So we've offered that for some time.  We now have our own CMS but you don't have to use it. Our original value prop is to use whatever you want. We have API Explorer, you can plug into whatever you want. We have now introduced our own because depending on the scenario and the requirements of the project, it just makes better sense to use ours. But we still have customers that would rather use that other thing, or Dave, they're integrated with the ERP application. They're building a retail point of sale application with Intuiface, and they have integrated with the ERP system, they need to work with the API and you can do that. Who would you describe as your kind of core end-users, core customers?  Geoff Bessin: I would say 50 to 60% of our customers are agencies and integrators. So we can discuss with the actual user might be, but I would say more than half of our installed base are agencies and integrators with their own clients. And there is a spectrum of reasons why they're using Intuiface. Some of them, they don't have the development skill, but they want to offer interactivity. Others have men and women on the bench with the skill, but they don't have the scale. That's the problem with people is that they can work on one thing at a time. And what we find is that a lot of the integrators in particular will be taking Intuiface so they can scale. They can take on a larger volume of maybe small and mid-sized projects that they can do with Intuiface, and then put the men and women on the bench onto the bigger high value projects. We find that customers are saving 80% of time and 60% of costs versus customer that don't use Intuiface. So it's very easy for them, and it's an easy pitch. Conceptually, if you can build an interactive application, doing exactly what you want with a no-code platform is probably cheaper and faster than if I wrote code, so it's an easy idea to wallow and it is what our customers experience. So that's what you'll find. I would say the majority 60%-55% agencies and integrators, the rest are the small and midsize museums, schools, retailers, sales offices, marketing, and sales teams, they want to do it themselves. And do they want to do it themselves because of cost or control? Geoff Bessin: Often it's because of cost. They have ambition or they've been bitten, Dave, where they have outsourced it. You don't see this going in, but you meet an agency. You tell them what you want, they agree and deliver something in two months that doesn't resemble what you wanted, so you ask for revisions, and this cycle continues while you pay for the time. It's not an agile process, and again, I'm not casting aspersions at the agency, they are our customers. But their sales pitch is we use Intuiface so we can deliver what you want faster than the other guys that do exactly what you want, and by the way, if you don't like the work we did, you can take it with you. If I pay an agency to write custom code and I'll be dissatisfied, I'm starting from zero with another agency. So you have that kind of portability benefit as well. So yes, a lot of the small and midsize, it's budget driven or based on their experience, they have limited budgets. They outsourced it, and they were just satisfied. We do have the occasional large enterprise. They want to have maybe an interactive sales pitch. So the marketing and sales team is driving the creation of the collateral, hiring a developer to make. I could use PowerPoint. Why am I hiring? It's hard to justify this pay developers to code a sales pitch, I can just use PowerPoint. Hold on a second, here's this thing called Intuiface. I can build an interactive sales pitch for my Salesforce. I'm still using the tool. I'm the creative team on the marketing sales team. But I'm creating something that is far more novel and engaging than a PowerPoint. When the pandemic hit, I speculated and I'm sure many people speculated that this was going to be a difficult time for people who were in the touch and interactive business. What happened instead is that touch actually went up in demand and self service applications became very much a big development initiative. Have you seen that happening in the last couple of years?  Geoff Bessin: We have, and then ultimately it turns out people are more afraid of other people than touch screens. And our business has rebounded quite well. What we were hoping for, and it seems to be the case is that demand didn't drop. It got stuck behind a wall. There was a dam and the demand was building behind the dam, and you couldn't open the dam cause nobody was out of the house and the waters were rising, people are finally out of the house, and you opened up the floodgates. So we're seeing a really nice rebound that is complimented, not just by the building interest anyway, but the kind of renewed interest in facilitating a non-human interaction, which sounds horrible culturally, in their place of business or what have you. And again, it's not just touch. Yes, I think probably most people would rather take a little Purell. They're fine with that, but still some people are not, and maybe they can use their mobile phone or scan a QR code.  But it's also a labor issue. It's harder to hire people and if you can use self service, then you don't have to worry so much about staffing. Geoff Bessin: There's that whole other thing too which is the cost of staffing and training and enabling and equipping and there's that as well. So for sure, there is certainly a perceived increase in interest, and interactivity of any kind and Intuiface has always been focused on any kind of interactivity, not just touch, and certainly this ability to use my mobile phone to interact with content is an increasingly interesting example, using gestures to interact, using voice to interact. So I'm not touching but I'm still working with technology directly rather than mediating through somebody else. So all of that is going on.  Last question: you guys have certainly in the last few years had a presence at ISE and at other trade shows, what are you doing in the next few weeks and months? Is Intuiface going to be something that people can walk up and get demos for?  Geoff Bessin: We will be at ISE, so that'll be our first trade show in however many years we'll be there. So you and I are speaking on April 26th and that's why I say in just a couple of weeks, we will be there with a booth, and we certainly hope we'll see others there.  We used to actually have our user conference in parallel with ISE, in-person and the pandemic put the kibosh on that. We've done virtual user conferences every year since then, and we like that because you don't have to travel, and so our user conference will be forever more be virtual. We actually have our user conference in three weeks that people are welcome to join. It's free, it'll be online, but we plan to be at ISE. We plan to be a DSE in the US and I think it's now November, and we'll be participating when your colleagues at Avitas are running DSE in parallel and ISE will be participating in that as well. So we're starting. We're treating this as back to normal. It's interesting, Dave working on my travel plans, flying into Spain. But you can't just get on a plane, you need to jump through certain things because of COVID. But it looks as of today, they're not even requiring masks onsite. That doesn't seem to be a requirement. Just the honor system that you are vaccinated or recovered and we'll see how that goes, but we're excited to be there. We'll have a big booth and about eight of us, we'll have a lot of people there.  And where can people find Intuiface online?  Geoff Bessin: Dave, thank you for asking, Intuiface.com. They can also just contact us. You are listening to Jeff Besson. You can just email me bessin@intuiface.com. The product can be tried for free, Dave. No credit card required. People can poke at it and see if what we're saying is true.  All right, thank you. Geoff Bessin: Dave. It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

SummaryJeff Eaton has always been driven to find order in the complex, whether he was teaching himself programming skills or re-evaluating his relationship with faith and religion. Now, as Partner at Autogram, he's helping large companies make sense of their digital worlds. GuestJeff EatonHighlights As a kid, Jeff Eaton got interested in programming as a way to solve problems using Hypercard on his family's Mac computer. After high school, Jeff intended to go to college to study “new media” but a summer job at a marketing agency turned into a longer term job, and Jeff realized he was already doing the things he meant to study. A growing passion for open source and Drupal led Jeff to Lullabot, where he got to dive deeper into content strategy. On the side, Jeff co-hosts a podcast called Christian Rightcast, looking at the history and context of the Christian Right in America

Taylor Otwell, is the founder of Laravel, a programming framework for PHP. But he's also one of the most successful indie SaaS operators I know. In this episode we discuss: 0:30 – Taylor is changing how he hires and manages people at Laravel 6:01 – How Taylor is finding new employees to work on Forge, Vapor, and his other products 7:34 – The Laravel ecosystem has incubated incredible talent: Miguel Piedrafita, Caleb Porzio, Adam Wathan, Aaron Francis, Jack Ellis... 10:03 – More and more indie SaaS apps are being built in Laravel 10:48 – When is the next Laracon conference? 13:11 – Taylor Otwell has the classic bootstrap success story 14:28 – Laravel has been running too lean 17:00 – What's it like to work as a developer at Laravel? (pair programming) 18:33 – How Taylor does product development 22:08 – "I haven't told anyone this yet, but I actually considered selling Laravel this past year." Here's why Taylor decided not to sell. 26:30 – How do you deal with internet fame, and being a "known person?"  28:59 – Dealing with haters on Twitter 31:50 – What is the future of web development, and the full-stack developer? What is the future of Ruby on Rails and Laravel? 35:53 – Building excitement around PHP and Laravel with young people. 42:13 – What inspires kids to get into programming? When it's fun, easy, accessible. This is why so many people started with Hypercard, Microsoft Access, PHP, Adobe Flash... What should we talk about next? Twitter: @buildyoursaas, @mijustin, @jonbuda, @jsonpearl, and @helenryles Leave a review/comment on Podchaser; it's like Reddit, but for podcasts. Email us: support@transistor.fm Thanks to our monthly supporters: Mitchell Davis from RecruitKit.com.au Marcel Fahle, ​​wearebold.af Alex Payne Bill Condo Anton Zorin from ProdCamp.com Mitch Harris Kenny, Intro CRM podcast Oleg Kulyk Ethan Gunderson Chris Willow Ward Sandler, Memberspace Russell Brown, Photivo.com Noah Prail Colin Gray Austin Loveless Michael Sitver Paul Jarvis and Jack Ellis, Fathom Dan Buda Darby Frey Brad from Canada Adam DuVander Dave Giunta (JOOnta) Kyle Fox GetRewardful.com Want to start a podcast on Transistor? Justin has a special coupon for you: get 15% off your first year of hosting: transistor.fm/justin★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

The term “skills gap” refers to the bridge between the skills that companies need from their employees, and those that are actually available from workers. In the digital-first or digital-native era, this gap is fuelled by a combination of factors including advances of automation, AI and other technologies, along with candidates lacking the skills needed to interact with these new tech innovations. These advancements have changed day-to-day operations, and upskilling programs at many organizations have yet to catch up. The result is a widening skills gap that can take a toll on company performance as well as employee confidence and productivity. So, the skills gap of the future is two-pronged; organizations seek IT staff to fill the need for both interpersonal/soft skills and technical/hard skills. According to CompTIA, 79% of organizations are pursuing initiatives to address these gaps amid a tightening market for IT labour. In today's PodChats for FutureCIO, we are joined by Suresh Sambandam, CEO of Kissflow, for his take on the future of application development with or without code. 1.       Given the hundreds or thousands of STEM graduates in Asia. In 2016, the World Economic Forum estimates that China alone produces 4.7 million STEM graduates a year. Do we really have a skills gap today? (or are businesses being so picky, we do end up with a shortage of the right skills alongside rising unemployment?) 2.       The idea of applications without programming has been an evolution as far back as 1954 with the programming language called autocode. Next one was Apple's HyperCard in 1987, and today's low-code, no -code platforms. Describe for us what LC-NC platforms offer today? 3.       Do you see LC-NC as addressing the current skills shortage? 4.       For old programmers, will LCNC spell the end of their cushy jobs? 5.       By the way, how would you differentiate between low code and no code platforms? 6.       For decades there is a divide that exists between IT and the rest of the organization. Do you see LCNC as bridging that divide? 7.       We are into 2022, what is your advice to (a) IT leaders and (b) business leaders around strategies to alleviate the IT skills shortage? 8.       So in all of these, what does Kissflow do? 

In this episode, Soren interviews veteran game developer Robin Hunicke, co-founder of Funomena and best known for her work on MySims, Boom Blox, and Journey. They discuss why HyperCard was so great, why AI development is game design, and how Steven Spielberg almost made Angry Birds for EA. This episode was recorded March 24, 2018.

We had this Mac lab in school. And even though they were a few years old at the time, we had a whole room full of Macintosh SEs. I'd been using the Apple II Cs before that and these just felt like Isaac Asimov himself dropped them off just for me to play with. Only thing: no BASIC interpreter. But in the Apple menu, tucked away in the corner was a little application called HyperCard. HyperCard wasn't left by Asimov, but instead burst from the mind of Bill Atkinson. Atkinson was the 51st employee at Apple and a former student of Jeff Raskin, the initial inventor of the Mac before Steve Jobs took over. Steve Jobs convinced him to join Apple where he started with the Lisa and then joined the Mac team until he left with the team who created General Magic and helped bring shape to the world of mobile devices. But while at Apple he was on the original Mac team developing the menu bar, the double-click, Atkinson dithering, MacPaint, QuickDraw, and HyperCard.  Those were all amazing tools and many came out of his work on the original 1984 Mac and the Lisa days before that. But HyperCard was something entirely different. It was a glimpse into the future, even if self-contained on a given computer. See, there had been this idea floating around for awhile.  Vannevar Bush initially introduced the world to a device with all the world's information available in his article “As We May Think” in 1946. Doug Engelbart had a team of researchers working on the oN-Line System that saw him give “The Mother of All Demos in 1968” where he showed how that might look, complete with a graphical interface and hypertext, including linked content. Ted Nelson introduced furthered the ideas in 1969 of having linked content, which evolved into what we now call hyperlinks. Although Nelson thought ahead to include the idea of what he called transclusions, or the snippets of text displayed on the screen from their live, original source.  HyperCard built on that wealth of information with a database that had a graphical front-end that allowed inserting media and a programming language they called HyperTalk. Databases were nothing new. But a simple form creator that supported graphics and again stressed simple, was new. Something else that was brewing was this idea of software economics. Brooks' Law laid it out but Barry Boehm's book on Software Engineering Economics took the idea of rapid application development another step forward in 1981. People wanted to build smaller programs faster. And so many people wanted to build tools that we needed to make it easier to do so in order for computers to make us more productive. Against that backdrop, Atkinson took some acid and came up with the idea for a tool he initially called WildCard. Dan Winkler signed onto the project to help build the programming language, HyperTalk, and they got to work in 1986. They changed the name of the program to HyperCard and released it in 1987 at MacWorld. Regular old people could create programs without knowing how to write code. There were a number of User Interface (UI) components that could easily be dropped on the screen, and true to his experience there was panel of elements like boxes, erasers, and text, just like we'd seen in MacPaint. Suppose you wanted a button, just pick it up from the menu and drop it where it goes. Then make a little script using the HyperText that read more like the English language than a programming language like LISP.  Each stack might be synonymous with a web page today. And a card was a building block of those stacks. Consider the desktop metaphor extended to a rolodex of cards. Those cards can be stacked up. There were template cards and if the background on a template changed, that flowed to each card that used the template, like styles in Keynote might today. The cards could have text fields, video, images, buttons, or anything else an author could think of. And the author word is important. Apple wanted everyone to feel like they could author a hypercard stack or program or application or… app. Just as they do with Swift Playgrounds today. That never left the DNA. We can see that ease of use in how scripting is done in HyperTalk. Not only the word scripting rather than programming, but how HyperTalk is weakly typed. This is to say there's no memory safety or type safety, so a variable might be used as an integer or boolean. That either involves more work by the interpreter or compiler - or programs tend to crash a lot. Put the work on the programmers who build programming tools rather than the authors of HyperCard stacks. The ease of use and visual design made Hypercard popular instantly. It was the first of its kind. It didn't compile at first, although larger stacks got slow because HyperTalk was interpreted, so the team added a just-in-time compiler in 1989 with HyperCard 2.0. They also added a debugger.  There were some funny behaviors. Like some cards could have objects that other cards in a stack didn't have. This led to many a migration woe for larger stacks that moved into modern tools. One that could almost be considered HyperCard 3, was FileMaker. Apple spun their software business out as Claris, who bought Noshuba software, which had this interesting little database program called Nutshell. That became FileMaker in 1985. By the time HyperCard was ready to become 3.0, FileMaker Pro was launched in 1990.  Attempts to make Hypercard 3.0 were still made, but Hypercard had its run by the mid-1990s and died a nice quiet death. The web was here and starting to spread. The concept of a bunch of stacks on just one computer had run its course. Now we wanted pages that anyone could access. HyperCard could have become that but that isn't its place in history. It was a stepping stone and yet a milestone and a legacy that lives on. Because it was a small tool in a large company. Atkinson and some of the other team that built the original Mac were off to General Magic. Yet there was still this idea, this legacy.  Hypercard's interface inspired many modern applications we use to create applications. The first was probably Delphi, from Borland. But over time Visual Studio (which we still use today) for Microsoft's Visual Basic. Even Powerpoint has some similarities with HyperCard's interface. WinPlus was similar to Hypercard as well. Even today, several applications and tools use HyperCard's ideas such as HyperNext, HyperStudio, SuperCard, and LiveCode. HyperCard also certainly inspired FileMaker and every Apple development environment since - and through that, most every tool we use to build software, which we call the IDE, or Integrated Development Environment. The most important IDE for any Apple developer is Xcode. Open Xcode to build an app and look at Interface Builder and you can almost feel Bill Atkinson's pupils dilated pupils looking back at you, 10 hours into a trip. And within those pupils visions - visions of graphical elements being dropped into a card and people digitized CD collections, built a repository for their book collection, put all the Grateful Dead shows they'd recorded into a stack, or even built an application to automate their business. Oh and let's not forget the Zine, or music and scene magazines that were so popular in the era that saw photocopying come down in price. HyperCard made for a pretty sweet Zine.  HyperCard sprang from a trip when the graphical interface was still just coming into its own. Digital computing might have been 40 years old but the information theorists and engineers hadn't been as interested in making things easy to use. They wouldn't have been against it, but they weren't trying to appeal to regular humans. Apple was, and still is. The success of HyperCard seems to have taken everyone by surprise. Apple sold the last copy in 2004, but the legacy lives on. Successful products help to mass- Its success made a huge impact at that time as well on the upcoming technology. Its popularity declined in the mid-1990s and it died quietly when Apple sold its last copy in 2004. But it surely left a legacy that has inspired many - especially old-school Apple programmers, in today's “there's an app for that” world.

To wrap up the year I wanted to revisit one of my old favourites: a story I made for my other (currently-inactive) podcast about one of the strangest and most thought-provoking programs ever created. This is the story of If Monks Had Macs. Original description It all started with a Macintosh ad: 'You too can be a knowledge worker.' This is the story of Brian Thomas' 15-year odyssey at the helm of one of the strangest pieces of multimedia software ever created — If Monks Had Macs. Links You can learn more about Brian, and about Monks, at his website: http://www.rivertext.com/monks.html (http://www.rivertext.com/monks.html) The original HyperCard stack is downloadable from http://www.rivertext.com/classic.html (http://www.rivertext.com/classic.html) and also playable https://archive.org/details/ifmonkshadmacs_1988 (at the Internet Archive)  https://www.ludiphilia.net/episode/episode-10-beyond-monks-if-monks-had-macs-part-2 (Ludiphilia Episode 10, Life After If Monks Had Macs)  All music and sound effects from If Monks Had Macs (with some touch-up by me), except: http://freemusicarchive.org/music/Chris_Zabriskie/I_Am_a_Man_Who_Will_Fight_for_Your_Honor/I_Am_a_Man_Who_Will_Fight_for_Your_Honor (I Am a Man Who Will Fight for Your Honor) by Chris Zabriskie http://freemusicarchive.org/music/Kai_Engel/ICD-10/Kai_Engel_-_ICD-10_-_06_Oneiri (Oneiri) by Kai Engel http://freemusicarchive.org/music/Kai_Engel/ICD-10/Kai_Engel_-_ICD-10_-_05_Comatose (Comatose) by Kai Engel And some bits I composed myself

Jaime Levy, Ux Strategist, Speaker and author of UX Strategy: Product Strategy Techniques for Devising Innovative Digital Solutions available in 6 languages and now also on Audible You can find Jaime on LinkedIn and on jaimelevy.com   ----------------- Katty: I've been watching your career trajectory, and I was super excited to see that you had written a book, UX Strategy and that the audio version has just come out. So I wanted to have a conversation about you, about the book, and how you started your path. One thing that I've noticed is this trend of reinvention with you from a designer to a strategist to an author to a public speaker to a professor, and how all of that's going to come together for you. I just found that fascinating, so I'd love for you to talk about your origin story and what's steps you've taken to come here. Jaime: Let's see. Well, I guess it started even before the browser when I was creating my floppy disk magazines, and I was a graduate student at NYU, and just really interested in nonlinear storytelling.  And then trying to invent this new medium like it was just this total insane dreamer thing. And I guess because of the floppy disk I made, I actually finished it, and then I successfully brought the product to market by selling it. A floppy disk that opened into a HyperCard or Director presentation. I know for all the newbies, they're like, “What are you talking about?” Don't worry, you don't need to know this old-school stuff.  But you know it used to be really hard to make interactive presentations, but the upside of all of that was that you could be the first or you could do something that is only mediocre in design. But because it was the first it was like “yay.”  That was how I started out. I was a horrible interface designer and a horrible coder. But I just kept pounding on these floppy disks, and then, the short version of it is Billy Idol bought one, and then it got launched as a commercial endeavor and then I got my gigs at EMI records and Viacom. And it all just kept going from there you know to eventually, doing an online magazine, and then getting a creative director role and just constantly working.  I really believe that if you just keep working, and applying yourself, and learning new things, that eventually you'll connect and get whatever it is that you want. Some job, or some gig, or an opportunity. And I think that relentlessness to persevere was something that has stayed with me, and I actually need to kind of manifest it now as I'm starting the next chapter of my career.  Before UX, it was called interface design and then after interface design, then it was web design and then after web design, then we had information architecture and interaction design. And by the time I got back to LA after 9/11 and the dot com thing crashed in New York, as well as, San Francisco and LA, I came back here and it seemed at that point I needed to focus.  And I should mention early on as a result of the (floppy) disk I was asked to be a part-time professor at NYU, and I did get flown around the country and the world, to speak at conferences, and I think like when you have that success when you start out you think that's normal. And so for me, it's just been catching up with my old normal, and it's a curse and a blessing, and the blessing is obvious because you're like, oh, I just want to continue to be a public speaker, I want to continue being known or recognized for my work. But the negative consequences, it's an addiction, it's like a high that you set here and you think, Oh, I always have to be at this level of an overachiever. And so, you know, in that sense I feel like I didn't engage in my own personal life, you know because I sacrificed it for my career so much and didn't really like relax into it until my 30s when I got back to Los Angeles. Katty: Interesting. I saw you actually speak about it in one of your talks. I think was your Brazil talk about being an overachiever and what that means and constantly trying to do things, new things, or do things in a new way. I found that fascinating, it went through that same reinvention theme that I recognized in what you were talking about. So thanks for sharing that. So you mentioned, the new chapter, a new iteration of Jaime. Jaime: New? It's in progress. So, you know, I did my first book and I did really well with the first book. I was insane to write a book. That was so crazy. But I just felt like UX strategy was so interesting and even though nobody was paying me to write it, you certainly don't make money off of the book. I just was like okay I'll take a year and a half and spend my savings and write a book and sit in the library. And it was really rewarding.  And so then when it came time to do a second edition, if I want to be current I did that. And I did it during the lockdown so that was kind of a good thing to do when you can't really go teach in a classroom or go run workshops in a public space. But basically, my book is now out in the second edition and is being translated into languages, and I just found out it's in German and Italian, and Portuguese this time, you know, on top of the other six languages and that's really exciting.  But the thing with the book is you need to promote it, and you know and you need to go do things to market it. Whenever you make anything whether it be a floppy disk or a website or an app or a book or you're marketing yourself as a public speaker, it's one thing that you do it, but the other half of it is in order to be successful, you just got to market yourself or your product. And it's fine when I get paid to do growth design and markets and run experiments to market other people's products. But I think, I'm kind of at least right now, I feel I'm just kind of over-marketing myself. All of a sudden I feel like, ah, can't life just be simple again? Let me just get a job ideally as a UX strategist and, you know, and that's it, let things quiet down.  And so you can say it's an existential post-midlife crisis, or maybe it's a phase but I just had a job interview with a company that I hope I get, and they were telling me that they just had written an article related to this subject about so many people basically looking at their careers and saying, “Do I even want to do this?”  I feel like COVID Hit the reset button for a ton of people and so now I'm less killing myself about, “Oh wow, I'm really not going to go crazy promoting this book because I don't feel like it? Is there something wrong with me? Or is it just like maybe I just have to accept to let people read the book. I hope they like it.” And if people ask me to speak fine, but you know, I think it's like at a certain point you have to say okay where's friction and friction is trying to go tour and do workshops at what we hope might be the end of the pandemic but isn't. You know, it's like I suffered the same fate as people who, you know we're in an orchestra, you know, or who had movies that came out. So I'm in great company of people who made their money by doing things for the public and in person and now that you know, there's no UX conferences really planned. I'm speaking at the one in Estonia, one, this year, zero last year zero the year before, you know. So it makes you say what am I going to do now? Katty: You're right, it definitely has been a reset button on many fronts. We've seen this so much with so many other candidates that we work with who are re-evaluating “I've been doing XYZ until now, do I still want to do it, do I still want to live here?” Just really evaluating everything, but I totally hear you about the book because I also wrote a book during this pandemic. I had been working on it for three years, which was far too long but that's just the length of time that it took. The circumstances where we found ourselves allowed me to finish it, so I am grateful for that. That was the silver lining in this crazy year and t it allowed me to finish it and get it out. But it's just sitting there and it's nowhere near where it needs to be... but it is what it is. It's a story I needed to get out. I got it out. Now, if people find it, awesome, and if they don't then we'll cross that bridge.  Jaime: What's your book called? Katty: It's called The Butterfly Years, and it's just my personal story dealing with grief and has nothing to do with Artisan Creative and it has everything to do with me. Obviously, as somebody who's running a company, it is going to have to come to grips with having to manage grief and make that work otherwise it permeates everything. Katty: If it helps people out there, it's there. If somebody is going through it and they need to hear somebody else's story who's been in the same boat. Then I've done my job.  Katty: Yeah, So when I heard that you had done your second edition and you had just done an audiobook. I thought you know I want to talk to her and see how that whole process was for her.  Katty: Congratulations on your interview and I hope that it ends up being the right next thing. Jaime: I hope so too. That would be great if my first interview turned into a job offer. Katty: Putting out the good vibes. Jaime: They were very surprised because it was a UX strategy position and I didn't have anywhere in my portfolio that I wrote it. I didn't want to say that I literally wrote the book on UX strategy because then they think oh she's not humble or she's too experienced so I didn't mention it. They saw something in there and I'm like, “Oh yeah, I wrote a book kind of related to UX strategy.” and they're like what's it called, I'm like, UX Strategy. I can't even own it. I can't even own it, you know, I'm just like, ahh so shocking. Yeah, you know, I want the opportunity to practice what I preach. Enough, running around with the same lectures and enough training.  I've done so much training in the last year, I think sometimes we just need to go back and forth and be okay with it. I'm not saying I'll never do workshops again, I just need to take a break from that part of it or and pursue it. So yeah hopefully something will come up for me that is enjoyable. Because I think it's important to have a job if you like and what I was shocked by when I looked at the job market this time was, oh my god there's 8,624 UX jobs in this country and 30 or 40% of them are remote, and there's actually jobs advertised for UX strategist title. It used to just be me and two other people. I don't know if my book helped define the industry but it seems like when I read the job description, it had everything that I wrote about in my book so it's a really exciting time that there's so much opportunity out there. Katty: Yeah, for sure. I'd love for you to maybe help define that a little bit, because obviously, we hear you know there's on the design side of it, UX there's XD. Now it's customer experience, employee experience. Can you talk a little bit about that I know for just what I've heard you talk about before, it's really the research and the strategy is the precursor before you even get into the design part of it. And I learned that thinking time is so important to be able to do that? Can you talk a little bit about that? Katty: A little bit of both, actually. Jaime: Sure. So I basically define UX strategy as the intersection between product design and business strategy. So business strategy is the top-level vision of an organization. How do we make money, who are our customers? You know business is defined, ultimately by their customers.  So they have a vision and the vision might be a platform, multiple products, a suite of products, or one product. And then it's like how do you really elevate that product, and bring it to market? So that when people have that first whiff of it, they're like, smells awesome. And so when I started doing discovery phases back in 2008, 2009 for Schematic and for Huge, I really fell in love with it. Because I love doing competitive research. So interesting, I mean who doesn't want to get paid to research the marketplace? And I loved the idea of finally getting to do user research. And so that was when I really became interested in it and realized that there was nothing out there that told us how to do it. I would just make things up as I went along and as I moved from different organizations, I would clean up my deliverables and take them to the next level.  And then when Lean Startup came out--People don't think of Lean Startup, as a product strategy methodology but I certainly do. It's this idea to build the smallest version of your product, get it in front of your target customer, learn from it, whether it be an alpha or prototype, extract data from these learnings and learn from it, and then iterate.  All of a sudden the discovery phase became not something like Waterfall; first, we do discovery, then we do the implementation, then we do usability testing and find out at the very end that not only does our product suck but nobody wants it. It was insane. And now all of a sudden, the discovery phase became something that can be iterative and cross into the implementation phase, and you can start building products and doing strategy, and testing it and validating it in much smaller loops all along the way. So that's what's really exciting is an opportunity to run some kind of experiments to knock out, to do rapid prototyping, to use whatever it is like sketch XD, other prototyping tools to get business concepts in front of the target users, and start doing user research that's more focused on validating a value proposition, versus, you know, is this thing usable? Even if it's really usable, but nobody wants it, then who cares if it's usable, right? Katty: Yep. Very good, and with plenty of products out there with great usability but they're sitting on the shelf. I probably have a few of them. Katty: Fantastic. You talked a little bit about this but I think, given where you are going, pivoting, and where you see the future to be for you at this juncture. What can you share with people who are either just starting out in their career path? And/or because of this past year, lost their positions, and they have to reinvent themselves. Where is it that you dig down deep to find that inspiration and that determination to just say you know what, this isn't working, let me figure out where it is that I want to go? Jaime: Yeah, I think just to be honest it's very different for someone like me with two to three decades in the industry versus somebody who's starting out. So I wouldn't give someone the same advice I would give myself, there's definitely different things going on. I can remember very well when I was starting out and the same feelings that I have now are similar. My dad gave me this great advice. When you're looking for a job, or when you're starting on your career, and when you interview with people, you want to be careful that you don't have this flashing L on your head. Loser, loser, loser.  Because people will spot this lack of confidence or low self-esteem, you know, and it doesn't matter how successful you are, or have been, like me. Because you can still have low self-esteem or imposter syndrome, and so, it's like you need to somehow put all of these fears of I suck;. I'm not gonna make it; I'm an imposter;I am so crazy that I thought I could do this film, to begin with. I'm too old or I'm too young or my portfolio doesn't have X, X, X.  I have to constantly work on this, to this minute, which is spinning a much more positive narrative in my head that, “No, no, I have something of value to give”. And then putting that negative energy into therapy, exercise, whatever you need to do to take care of yourself, but I still to this day, put it into how can I showcase my work, what's missing? You know, look at my portfolio. Okay, it has all this but it's missing, you know, this one deliverable. Well, I better make it, fake it till you make it, you know, and figure out a way to like get it in there.  And the funny thing is is they may not even ask for it on that job interview, but if it's like this thing that you think is missing, then it's going to be flashing the L on your forehead and so to me, it's like puffing yourself up and what is it going to do to make you confident for these interviews and if showing your portfolio and getting excited around the storytelling of your UX design which, it still is for me, then get that into your portfolio and any missing things.  Don't spend eight hours a day looking for a job, spend four hours and the other four hours teaching yourself a new tool because there's always going to be new things to learn. And if you're not open to learning new things, up until, you know, your 50s and 60s, then whenever that is where you're not open to new things, you better be at that last job that you're going to station yourself at, because the industry, I promise you, just keeps on changing. You know it's amazing. Katty: Gosh. Great advice. I think for all levels of career and years in the industry and also not even to have to do with business. I think for anything where we tend to sometimes focus in on the thing we don't have versus on the things that we do have it's just such a great lesson to say you know what to say we have to reshift that mindset.  There's a great book that I read a couple of years ago by this woman called Sally Helgason, and it's called How Women Rise, and she talks a lot about specifically women and how we get into this mindset of, oh, but you know what, let me work harder because I'm missing this 10% thing and not focus on the 90% that I have and it's just crazy. I see it all the time. I see it, not just in candidates I see it in myself. And putting myself out for a conversation or a talk or something and if I don't get it's like, oh, that's because I didn't talk about this. You know what, maybe just wasn't the right thing. So, yeah, great lesson. And I think also that that whole thing also speaks of desperation, and I think that that comes through, so loud and clear, it erodes the confidence that would naturally be there if somebody has worked on their craft. Jaime: Yeah and we need to in this field of product design or research, ultimately we're making something that we need to upsell, at the very end, even if it's to our boss and say yeah this is awesome, you know, and it's like, oh my gosh if we come to it from this place of fear, we're never going to sell it.  So I think it's easy to focus on the negatives for a lot of us, and we can't afford to do that in our field because we're always upselling our work. Katty: Yeah. Have you ever taken the StrengthsFinder assessment? Have you ever done that?  Jaime: No, I don't even know what that is. Katty: It's similar to a DISC or Myers-Briggs. But it focuses on your strengths. The reason I like it, we do it for our company and we talk about our strengths all the time. Its created by Don Clifton, and is now as part of Gallup and it's a personality assessment. The reason for him creating this was that he felt people focused on their weaknesses, and not on their strengths. The whole thing is about what are your top five strengths and let's lead with your strengths and not focus on a thing that is number 30 something for you, let's focus on the things that you're really good at and then find someone else who your bottom five is their top five and then collaborate. So it sounds like it's just human nature that we go there. If we could learn not to go there, it would be less, I think less of a headache for all of us. Katty: Crazy. So, I know you're teaching, you're doing online courses, you mentioned that you're doing a talk in Estonia. Are you doing that in person, are you doing that virtually? How are you managing your time and all the different places you need to be, or how did you manage your time and all the different places you need to be? Jaime: Yeah, I don't know how I'm managing my time right now yet. I'm still waiting to see where a bunch of things land. But the Estonia conference is the first onsite conference since COVID, since March of 2020. Well, basically there's very few conferences in the beginning of the year for the first quarter anyway.  So, anyway, it's Web Usability Day I think is their legacy name. But it's a one-day conference and then there's workshops, three days prior to it. It's in Estonia, it's very affordable, it's gonna bring in like a massive crowd of UX professionals. A lot of new ones but people mid-level and all over the place. And they're coming from Estonia, but they're also coming across the Baltic from Finland, and a couple of other Baltic states. So, I'm closing the conference, I guess I'm kind of headlining it, and then my workshop is one day right before that. So November 25th,iis my UX Strategy Workshop and then November 26th is the conference. It's a Thursday, Friday, so but I'll be in Berlin back in November, and then I'm doing a couple of talks, just private ones where I'm flying in. And then going back to Berlin and then I'm going to do this thing in Estonia.  I am so over this idea of more online workshops. I think they're a joke, sorry guys, but the whole point of conferences was to get people together physically in a space to network and touch base with other people and build relationships. And it seems I've done a bunch of these fake conferences, and it doesn't feel the same, they never pay and it's a joke. So I'm not into those anymore.  I'm really stoked that these people you know, the COVID cases are extremely low [in Estonia]. I've had my third vaccine. already so I'm totally going. I won't be taking too much risk but definitely, I'm really excited to be around humans and doing my thing. Katty: Yeah, humans, human connection. I'm traveling internationally for the first time since March of last year as well, and I'm going to Mexico and then to Dubai. But, I have to navigate the whole PCR test thing because I'm not going to be in the States for three days before I go so I got to figure that part out. Jaime: Yeah. It's a crazy time. I can't believe really what happened. How much the pandemic just changed everything, it's just, it's shocking. Katty: Are you seeing that in the world of products, are you seeing what's happened with a pandemic impact, whether it be design thinking or about how people are approaching research. I would imagine that it's changed how people are looking at how they go forward. Jaime: Yeah well, everything's online now. When I left Huge back in 2009, 2010. It was because I didn't want to drive in my car in rush hour to agency land in Culver City, and I didn't want to work in person, I wanted to work from home. So I've been working remote since 2010 and it's not new to me, and Cisco Systems when I worked for them as a UX strategist, everybody was a remote workforce. So finally, the rest of the world is catching up with us and learning that it is possible, and even outside of product so I think it's opening up opportunities in many ways. But, the negative consequence, and I felt this when I taught my last course at Claremont University, was that my students who were graduating, were just getting internships, but they're online.  At Facebook or wherever, and at any point in your life where you need human contact, and you need the nuance of someone kind of seeing that you're confused, and you need mentoring or you need to get the confidence to ask for help, we need that to be in person. I feel like the people that are getting the worst end of the deal is the college graduates, the people who are just starting their career who have to start it by themselves in Zoom rooms. Hopefully, there's going to be some way that it isn't just this experience of online collaboration, because I just feel even when I had my second or third cat life of getting into the UX world, I can't even imagine that I would have had the trust and camaraderie that I had with people at Schematic who came over and showed me how to wireframe when nobody was looking. So hopefully maybe there's some way that people can reach out and have people to connect with for that kind of support since they can't get it in person. Katty: The whole mentoring piece of it. Yeah, taking somebody under your wing. It's harder to do it this way. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I have some nieces and nephews who started their first year in college last year. You've worked really hard to get into the school of your choice, but you don't get a chance to really experience that. So now as a sophomore, they're getting to experience it for the first time because now some other classes are in person. So really interesting to kind of watch this new generation of those who are starting and those who are graduating, it's just a very different world, for sure. Jaime: Yeah it's crazy. It's really crazy and maybe five years from now we'll look back on that and go, Oh man, it was so great, why didn't we just do all that remote work and it was so easy. But it is weird, I just got off the phone with a client and he's just saying that he's not leaving the house and he doesn't want to get the vaccine because he almost died from a vaccine from something else a long time ago, so he's just like staying in his house for his whole life. And I just, I feel in our field where we're designing products for customers and users, it's like, “Nah, we need to have human contact and get out there.” When I'm feeling really low, I reach out to a friend and I have to dump, and say “Ugh”, and have them tell me. I just hope we don't lose everything as a result of this, online world that we live in now. Katty: I don't think so. I mean I certainly hope not. I do feel that there's a hybrid version of it that's going to be more pronounced. I mean we went to such an extreme this past year, I do think there's going to be a hybrid world in front of us. I haven't quite figured it out yet, but little by little I think we'll fall into place. Let's end on a couple of inspiration pieces. Where do you get your inspiration? Jaime: My inspiration now is probably-- I consume a lot of film. I like to have a big impact. I actually went to the movie theater, on Sunday, by myself, bought a ticket to go see Ich bin dein Mensch, I'm Your Man, a German film about a man robot who was built to learn on what a woman wants and then they program him to be the perfect partner. It was amusing, to walk into it, to have it open up and see all of Mitte Berlin and see the TV tower and see the food and see inside the flat. I miss Berlin so much right now, I felt like when I got out of there  I had just gone to Berlin. It just reminded me of all these tiny little things. So I get a lot of inspiration from being able to transport myself into different realities physically and through film, and right now, traveling is limited,but I definitely get my inspiration from seeing other cultures, other ways to live.  I lived in Berlin for most of the pandemic, and it took months, but after being there and away from here for so many months it really-- when you experience other cultures, it makes you appreciate and also find things you don't like about your own culture. But I feel like having perspective is what inspires me. Katty: Love that, and for creativity to bloom, do you need that spark of inspiration for creativity to happen, or is there another thing you tap into when you sit down to write or to do another wireframe or to create, what would you tap into for that? Jaime: I don't know, I wish I could answer that. I don't know. I spend my days at the computer then I go and walk on a trail. It's extremely important for me to get out and walk in nature and I do that every day and I listen to the same 3 podcasts. The New York Times Day thing, The Berlin Briefing, and then Doug Rushkoff's Team Human And that stuff, while I'm like in nature and walking around listening to these podcasts, again, I guess I feel transported and I feel immersed. I think that when I leave the house, and when I come back, whether I'm jogging or listening to music and weird experimental atonal music that nobody would like unless they're into weird music. That helps me really reset the crazy stuff we're telling ourselves in our head or just like being in a mundane moment. I think sitting at a computer for more than four hours, not healthy for me.   Katty: I love that. Both for creativity and inspiration, it's not going to happen nine to five necessarily looking at a little screen. To be able to get out of this and just get other influences. I find nature so healing in so many ways and my ideation just goes off the roof when I'm out and about. Jaime: Where do you go, where do you get your nature?  Katty: My favorite place is Point Doom in Malibu. It's a very easy little hike, but you are at eye level of the pelicans flying by. It's just the most incredible sensation sitting there and you see these majestic birds flying right at your eye level. So whenever I can, whether it's a birthday or an anniversary or something special, that's where I like to go.    Jaime: Nice. Yeah.   Katty: Well Jamie where can people find you?   Jaime: People can find me on LinkedIn, @Jaimerlevy. I'm on Twitter, I'm not tweeting so much. I was told I need to get on Instagram but I'm like, “What?”. And then Jaimelevy.com and then the book userexperiencestrategy.com. I'd love to just mention if people don't like to go walk in nature. I recorded my audible book at this great studio in the valley, where I grew up, and it's me reading my book and doing some impressions of myself, and it's a lot of stories and so far the reviews have been really favorable. And so if you're not a big reader like me I hate it, I don't really like reading. I can read an article but long-format, not so good. Check out my audible book if you're not sure go to userexperiencestrategy.com and listen to the first two chapters and try it on. But I'm really excited about the audible, you know for my book I self-produced it, paid for it, and it's mine. So that was important to me, you know.      

About MatthewMatthew Prince is co-founder and CEO of Cloudflare. Cloudflare's mission is to help build a better Internet. Today the company runs one of the world's largest networks, which spans more than 200 cities in over 100 countries. Matthew is a World Economic Forum Technology Pioneer, a member of the Council on Foreign Relations, winner of the 2011 Tech Fellow Award, and serves on the Board of Advisors for the Center for Information Technology and Privacy Law. Matthew holds an MBA from Harvard Business School where he was a George F. Baker Scholar and awarded the Dubilier Prize for Entrepreneurship. He is a member of the Illinois Bar, and earned his J.D. from the University of Chicago and B.A. in English Literature and Computer Science from Trinity College. He's also the co-creator of Project Honey Pot, the largest community of webmasters tracking online fraud and abuse.Links: Cloudflare: https://www.cloudflare.com Blog post: https://blog.cloudflare.com/aws-egregious-egress/ Bandwidth Alliance: https://www.cloudflare.com/bandwidth-alliance/ Announcement of R2: https://blog.cloudflare.com/introducing-r2-object-storage/ Blog.cloudflare.com: https://blog.cloudflare.com Duckbillgroup.com: https://duckbillgroup.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Writing ad copy to fit into a 30 second slot is hard, but if anyone can do it the folks at Quali can. Just like their Torque infrastructure automation platform can deliver complex application environments anytime, anywhere, in just seconds instead of hours, days or weeks. Visit Qtorque.io today and learn how you can spin up application environments in about the same amount of time it took you to listen to this ad.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Honeycomb. When production is running slow, it's hard to know where problems originate: is it your application code, users, or the underlying systems? I've got five bucks on DNS, personally. Why scroll through endless dashboards, while dealing with alert floods, going from tool to tool to tool that you employ, guessing at which puzzle pieces matter? Context switching and tool sprawl are slowly killing both your team and your business. You should care more about one of those than the other, which one is up to you. Drop the separate pillars and enter a world of getting one unified understanding of the one thing driving your business: production. With Honeycomb, you guess less and know more. Try it for free at Honeycomb.io/screaminginthecloud. Observability, it's more than just hipster monitoring.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud, I'm Corey Quinn. Today, my guest is someone I feel a certain kinship with, if for no other reason than I spend the bulk of my time antagonizing AWS incredibly publicly. And my guest periodically descends into the gutter with me to do the same sort of things. The difference is that I'm a loudmouth with a Twitter account and Matthew Prince is the co-founder and CEO of Cloudflare, which is, of course, publicly traded. Matthew, thank you for deigning to speak with me today. I really appreciate it.Matthew: Corey, it's my pleasure, and appreciate you having me on.Corey: So, I'm mostly being facetious here, but not entirely, in that you have very publicly and repeatedly called out some of the same things I love calling out, which is AWS's frankly egregious egress pricing. In fact, that was a title of a blog post that you folks put out, and it was so well done I'm ashamed I didn't come up with it myself years ago. But it's something that is resonating with a large number of people in very specific circumstances as far as what their company does. Talk to me a little bit about that. Cloudflare is a CDN company and increasingly looking like something beyond that. Where do you stand on this? What got you on this path?Matthew: I was actually searching through really old emails to find something the other day, and I found a message from all the way back in 2009, so actually even before Michelle and I had come up with a name for Cloudflare. We were really just trying to understand the pricing on public clouds and breaking it all down. How much does the compute cost? How much does storage cost? How much does bandwidth cost?And we kept running the numbers over and over and over again, and the storage and compute costs actually seemed relatively reasonable and you could understand it, but the economics behind the bandwidth just made no sense. It was clear that as bandwidth usage grew and you got scale that your costs eventually effectively went to zero. And I think it was that insight that led to us starting Cloudflare. And the self-service plans at Cloudflare have always been unlimited bandwidth, and from the beginning, we didn't charge for bandwidth. People told us at the time we were crazy to not do that, but I think that that realization, that over time and at scale, bandwidth costs do go to zero is really core to who Cloudflare is.Cloudflare launched a little over 11 years ago now, and as we've watched the various public clouds and AWS in particular just really over that same 11 years not only not follow the natural price of bandwidth down, but really hold their costs steady. At some point, we've got a lot of mutual customers and it's a complaint that we hear from our mutual customers all the time, and we decided that we should do something about it. And so that started four years ago, when we launched the Bandwidth Alliance, and worked with almost all the major public clouds with the exception of Amazon, to say that if someone is sending traffic from a public cloud network to Cloudflare's network, we're not going to charge them for the bandwidth. It's going across a piece of fiber optic cable that yeah, there's some cost to put it in place and maybe there's some maintenance costs associated with it, but there's not—Corey: And the equipment at the end costs money, but it's not cloud cost; it just cost on a per second, every hour of your lifetime basis. It's a capital expense that is amortized across a number of years et cetera, et cetera.Matthew: And it's a fixed cost. It's not a variable cost. You put that fiber optic cable and you use a port on a router on each side. There's cost associated with that, but it's relatively de minimis. And so we said, “If it's not costing us anything and it's not costing a cloud provider anything, why are we charging customers for that?”And I think it's an argument that resonated with almost every other provider that was out there. And so Google discounts traffic when it's sent to us, Microsoft discounts traffic when it's sent to us, and we just announced that Oracle has joined this discounting their traffic, which was already some of the most cost-effective bandwidth from any cloud provider.Corey: Oh, yeah. Oracle's fantastic. As you were announced, I believe today, the fact that they're joining the Bandwidth Alliance is both fascinating and also, on some level, “Okay. It doesn't matter as much because their retail starting cost is 10% of Amazon's.” You have to start pushing an awful lot of traffic relative to what you would do AWS before it starts to show up. It's great to see.Matthew: And the fact that they're taking that down to effectively zero if you're using us is even better, right? And I think it again just illustrates how Amazon's really alone in this at being so egregious in how they do that. And it's, when we've done the math to calculate what their markups are, it's almost 80 times what reasonable assumptions on what their wholesale costs are. And so we really do believe in fighting for our customers and being customer-centric, and this seems like a place where—again, Amazon provides an incredible service and so many things, but the data transfer costs are just completely outrageous. And I'm glad that you're calling them out on it, and I'm glad we're calling them out on it and I think increasingly they look isolated and very anti-customer.Corey: What's interesting to me is that ingress to AWS at all the large public tier-one cloud providers is free. Which has led, I think, to the assumption—real or not—that bandwidth doesn't actually cost anything, whereas going outbound, all I can assume is that one day, some Amazon VP was watching a rerun of Meet the Parents and they got to the line where Ben Stiller says, “Oh, you can milk anything with nipples,” and said, “Holy crap. Our customers all have nipples; we can milk them with egress charges.” And here we are. As much as I think the cloud empowers some amazing stuff, the egress charges are very much an Achilles heel to a point where it starts to look like people won't even consider public cloud for certain workloads based upon that.People talk about how Netflix is a great representation of the ideal AWS customers. Yeah, but they don't stream a single byte to customers from AWS. They have their own CDN called Open Connect that they put all around the internet, specifically for that use case because it would bankrupt them otherwise.Matthew: If you're a small customer, bandwidth does cost something because you have to pay someone to do the work of interconnecting with all of the various networks that are out there. If you start to be, though, a large customer—like a Cloudflare, like an AWS, like an Azure—that is sending serious traffic to the internet, then it starts to actually be in the interest of ISPs to directly interconnect with you, and the costs of your bandwidth over time will approach zero. And that's the just economic reality of how bandwidth pricing works. I think that the confusion, to some extent, comes from all of us having bought our own home internet connection. And I think that the fact that you get more bandwidth up in most internet connections, and you get down, people think that there's some physics, which is associated with that.And there are; that turns out just to be the legacy of the cable system that was really designed to send pictures down to your—Corey: It wasn't really a listening post. Yeah.Matthew: Right. And so they have dedicated less capacity for up and again, in-home network connections, that makes a ton of sense, but that's not how internet connections work globally. In fact, you pay—you get a symmetric connection. And so if they can demonstrate that it's free to take the traffic in, we can't figure out any reason that's not simply about customer lock-in; why you would charge to take data out, but you wouldn't charge to put it in. Because actually cost more from writing data to a disk, it costs more than reading it from a disk.And so by all reasonable accounts, if they were actually charging based on what their costs were, they would charge for ingress but they want to charge for egress. But the approach that we've taken is to say, “For standard bandwidth, we just aren't going to charge for it.” And we do charge for if you use our premium routing services, which is something called Argo, but even then it's relatively cheap compared with what is just standard kind of internet connectivity that's out there. And as we see more of the clouds like Microsoft and Google and Oracle show that this is a place where they can be much more customer-centric and customer-friendly, over time I'm hopeful that will put pressure on Amazon and they will eliminate their egress fees.Corey: People also tend to assume that when I talk about this, that I'm somehow complaining about the level of discounting or whatnot, and they yell at me and say, “Oh, well, you should know by now, Corey, that no one at significant scale pays retail pricing.” “Thanks, professor. I appreciate that, but four years ago, or so I sat down with a startup founder who was sketching out the idea for a live video streaming service and said, ‘There's something wrong with my math because if I built this on AWS—which he knew very well, incidentally—it looks like it would cost me at our scale of where we're hoping to hit $65,000 a minute.'” And I checked and yep, sure enough, his math was not wrong, so he obviously did not build his proof of concept on top of AWS. And the last time I checked, they had raised several 100 million dollars in a bunch of different funding rounds.That is a company now that will not be on AWS because it was never an option. I want to talk as well about your announcement of R2, which is just spectacular. It is—please correct me if I get any of this wrong—it's an object store that lives in your existing distributed-points-of-presence-slash-data-centers-slash-colo-slash-a-bunch-of-computers-in-fancy-warehouse-rooms-with-the-lights-are-always-on-And-it's-always-cold-and-noisy. And people can store data there—Matthew: [crosstalk 00:10:23] aisles it's cold; in the other aisles, it's hot. But yes.Corey: Exactly. But it turns out when you lurk around to the hot aisle, that's not where all the buttons are and the things you're able to plug into, so it's freeze or sweat, and there's never a good answer. But it's an object store that costs a fair bit less than retail pricing for Amazon S3, or most other object stores out there. Which, okay, great. That's always good to see competition in the storage space, but specifically, you're not charging any data transfer costs whatsoever for doing this. First, where did this come from?Matthew: So, we needed it ourselves. I think all of the great products at Cloudflare start with an internal need. If you look at why do we build our zero-trust solutions? It's because we said we needed a security solution that was fast and reliable and secure to protect our employees as they were going out and using the internet.Why did we build Cloudflare Workers? Because we needed a very flexible compute platform where we could build systems ourselves. And that's not unique to us. I mean, why did Amazon build AWS? They built it because they needed those tools in order to continue to grow and expand as quickly as possible.And in fact, I think if you look at the products that Google makes that are really great, it ends up being the ones that Google's employees use themselves. Gmail started as Caribou once upon a time, which was their internal email system. And so we needed an object store and the sometimes belligerent CEO of Cloudflare insisted that our team couldn't use any of the public cloud object stores. And so we had to build it.That was the start of it and we've been using it internally for products over time. It powers, for example, Cloudflare Images, it powers a lot of our streaming video services, and it works great. And at some point, we said, “Can we take this and make it available to everyone?” The question that you've asked on Twitter, and I think a lot of people reasonably ask us, “What's the catch?”Corey: Well, in my defense, I think it's fair. There was an example that I gave of, “Okay, I'm going to go ahead and keep—because it's new, I don't trust new object stores. Great. I'm going to do the same experiment twice, keep one the pure AWS story and the other, I'm just going to add Cloudflare R2 to the mix so that I have to transfer out of AWS once.” For a one gigabyte file that gets shared out for a petabyte's worth of bandwidth, on AWS it costs roughly $52,000 to do that. If I go with the R2 solution, it cost me 13 cents, all of which except for a penny-and-a-half are AWS charges. And that just feels—when you're looking at that big of a gap, it's easy to look at that and think, “Okay, someone is trying to swindle me somewhere. And when you can't spot the sucker, it's probably me. What's the catch?”Matthew: I guess it's not really a catch; it's an explanation. We have been able to drive our bandwidth costs down low enough that in that particular use case, we have to store the file, and that, again, that—there's a hard disk in there and we replicate it to make sure that it's available so it's not just one hard disk, but it's multiple hard disks in various places, but that amortized over time, isn't that big a cost. And then bandwidth is effectively zero. And so if we can do that, then that's great.Maybe a different way of framing the question is like, “Why would we do that?” And I think what we see is that there is an opportunity for customers to be able to use the best of various cloud providers and hook the different parts together. So, people talk about multi-cloud all the time, and for a while, the way that I think people thought about that was you take the exact same workload and you run it in Azure and AWS. That turns out not to be—I mean, maybe some people do that, but it's super rare and it's incredibly hard.Corey: It has been a recurring theme of most things I say where, by default, that is one of the dumbest things I can imagine.Matthew: Yeah, that isn't good. But what people do want to do is they want to say, “Listen, there's some really great services that Amazon provides; we want to use those. And there's some really great services that Azure provides, and we want to use those. And Google's got some great machine learning, and so does IBM. And I want to sort of mix and match the various pieces together.”And the challenge in doing that is the egress fees. If everyone just had a detente and said there's going to be no egress fees for us to be able to hook these various [pits 00:14:48] together, then you would be able to take advantage of a lot of the different technologies and we would actually get stronger applications. And so the vision of what we're trying to build is how can we be the fabric that can stitch the various cloud providers together so that you can do that. And when we looked at that, and we said, “Okay, what's the path to getting there?” The big place where there's the just meatiest cost on egress fees is object stores.And so if you could have a centralized object store, and you can say then from that object go use whatever the best service is at Amazon, go use whatever the best service is at Google, go use whatever the best service is at Azure, that then allows, I think, actually people to take advantage of the cloud in a way which is what people really should mean when they talk about multi-cloud. Which is, there should be competition on the various features themselves, and you should be able to pick and choose the best of all of the different bits. And I think we as consumers then benefit from that. And so when we're looking at how we can strategically enable that future, building an object store was a real key part of that, and that's part of what we're doing. Now, how do we make money off of that? Well, there's a little bit off the storage, and again, even [laugh]—Corey: Well, that is the Amazonian answer there. It's like, “Your margin is my opportunity,” is a famous Bezos quote, and I figure you're sitting there saying, “Ah, it would cost $52,000 to do that in Amazon. Ah, we can make a penny-and-a-half.” That's very Amazonian, you could probably get hired over there with that philosophy.Matthew: Yeah. And this is a commodity service, just [laugh] storing data. If you look across the history of what Cloudflare has done, in 2014, we made encryption free because it's absurd to pay for math, right? I mean, it's just crazy right?Corey: Or to pay for security as a value-add. No, that should be baked into whatever you're doing, in an ideal world.Matthew: Domain registration. Like, it's writing something down in a ledger. It's a commodity; of course it should go to whatever the absolute cost is. On the other hand, there are things that we do that aren't commodities where we are able to better protect people because we see so much traffic, and we've built the machine learning models, and we've done those things, and so we charge for those things. So commodities, we think over time, go to effectively, whatever their cost is, and then the value is in the actual intelligent services that are on top of it.But an object store is a commodity and so we should be trying to drive that pricing down. And in the case of bandwidth, it's effectively free for us. And so if we can be that fabric that connects the different class together, I think that makes sense is a strategy for us and that's why R2 made a ton of sense for us to build and to launch.Corey: There seems to be a lack of ability for lots of folks, at least on the internet to imagine a use case other than theirs. I cheated by being a consultant, I get to borrow other people's use cases at a high degree of turnover. But the question I saw raised was, “Well, how many workloads really do that much egress from static objects that don't change? Doesn't sound like there'd be a whole lot of them.” And it's, “Oh, my sweet summer child. Sure, your app doesn't do a lot of that, but let me introduce it to my friends who are hosting videos on their website, for example, or large images that get accessed a whole bunch of times; things that are written once and then read forever by the internet.”Matthew: And we sit in a position where because of the role that Cloudflare plays where we sit in front of a number of these different cloud providers, we could actually look at the use cases and the data, and then build products in order to solve that. And that's why we started with Workers; that's why we then built the KV store that was on top of that; we built object-store next. And so you can see as we're sort of marching through these things, it is very much being informed by the data that we actually see from real customers. And one of the things that I really like about R2 is in exactly the example that you gave where you can keep everything in S3; you can set R2 in front of it and put it in slurp mode, and effectively it just—as those objects get pulled out, it starts storing them there. And so the migration path is super easy; you don't have to actually change anything about your application and will cut your bills substantially.And so I think that's the right thing to enable a multi-cloud world where, again, it's not you're running the exact same workload in different places, but you get to take advantage of the really great tack that all of these companies are building and use that. And then the companies will compete on building that tech well. So, it's not just about how do I get the data in and then kind of underinvest in all of the different services that I provide. It's how can we make sure that on a service-by-service basis, you actually are having real competition over time. And again, I think that's the right thing for customers, and absolutely R2 might not be the right thing for every use case that's out there, but I think that it wi—enabling more competition is going to make the cloud better for everyone.Corey: Oh, yeah. It's always fun hearing it from Amazonians. It's, “You have a service that talks to satellites in orbit. You really think that's a general-purpose thing that every company out there has to deal with?” No. Well, not yet, anyway.It also just feels to me like their transfer approach is antithetical to almost every other aspect of how they have built their cloud. Amazonians have told me repeatedly—I believe them—that their network is effectively magic. The fact that you can get near line rate between any two points without melting various [unintelligible 00:20:14], which shows that there was significant thought, work, effort, planning, technology, et cetera, put into the network. And I don't dispute that. But if I'm trying to build a workload and put it inside of AWS, I can control how it performs tied to budget; I can have a lot of RAM for things that are memory intensive, or I can have a little RAM; I can have great CPU performance or terrible CPU performance.The challenge with data transfer is it is uniformly great. “I want to get that data over there super quickly.” Yeah, awesome. I'm fine paying a premium for that. But I have this pile of data right here. I want to get it over there, ideally by Tuesday. There's no good way to do that, even with their Snowball—or Snow Family devices—when you fill them with data and send them into AWS, yeah, that's great. Then you just pay for the use of the device.Use them to send data out of AWS, they tack on an additional per-gigabyte fee for getting the data out. You're training as a lawyer, you went to the same law school that my wife did, the University of Chicago, which, oh, interesting stories down that path. But if we look at this, my argument is that the way to do an end-run around this is to sue Amazon for something, and then demand access to the data you have living in their environment during discovery. Make them give it to you for free, though, they'd probably find a way to charge it there, too. It's just a complete lack of vision and lack of awareness because it feels like they're milking a cash cow until it dies.Matthew: Yeah, they probably would charge for it and you'd also have to pay a lot of lawyers. So, I'm not sure that's the cost [crosstalk 00:21:44]—Corey: Its only works above certain volumes, I figure.Matthew: I do think that if your pricing strategy is designed to lock people in to prevent competition, then that does create other challenges. And there are certainly some University of Chicago law professors out there that have spent their careers arguing why antitrust laws don't make any sense, but I think that this is definitely one of those areas where you can see very clearly that customers are actually being harmed by the pricing strategy that's there. And the pricing strategy is not tied in any way to the underlying costs which are associated with that. And so I do think that, especially as you see other providers in the space—like Oracle—taking their bandwidth costs to effectively zero, that's the sort of thing that I think will have regulators start to scratch their heads. If tomorrow, AWS took egress costs to zero, and as a result, R2 was not as advantaged as it is today against them, you know, I think there are a lot of people who would say, “Oh, they showed Cloudflare.” I would do a happy dance because that's the best thing [thing they can do 00:22:52] for our customers.Corey: Our long-term goals, it sounds like, are relatively aligned. People think that I want to see AWS reign ascendant; people also say I want to see them burning and crashing into the sea, and neither one of those are true. What I want is, I want someone in a few years from now to be doing a startup and trying to figure out which cloud provider they should pick, and I want that to be a hard decision. Ideally, if you wind up reducing data transfer fees enough, it doesn't even have to be only one. There are stories that starts to turn into an actual realistic multi-cloud story that isn't, at its face, ridiculous. But right now, you have to pick a horse and ride it, for a variety of reasons. And I don't like that.Matthew: It's entirely egress-based. And again, I think that customers are better off if they are able to pick who is the best service at any time. And that is what encourages innovation. And over time, that's even what's good for the various cloud providers because it's what keeps them being valuable and keeps their customers thinking that they're building something which is magical and that they aren't trapped in the decision that they made, which is when we talk to a lot of the customers today, they feel that way. And it's I think part of why something like R2 and something like the Bandwidth Alliance has gotten so much attention because it really touches a nerve on what's frustrating customers today. And if tomorrow Amazon announced that they were eliminating egress fees and going head-to-head with R2, again, I think that's a wonderful outcome. And one that I think is unlikely, but I would celebrate it if it happened.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle Cloud. Counting the pennies, but still dreaming of deploying apps instead of "Hello, World" demos? Allow me to introduce you to Oracle's Always Free tier. It provides over 20 free services and infrastructure, networking databases, observability, management, and security.And - let me be clear here - it's actually free. There's no surprise billing until you intentionally and proactively upgrade your account. This means you can provision a virtual machine instance or spin up an autonomous database that manages itself all while gaining the networking load, balancing and storage resources that somehow never quite make it into most free tiers needed to support the application that you want to build.With Always Free you can do things like run small scale applications, or do proof of concept testing without spending a dime. You know that I always like to put asterisks next to the word free. This is actually free. No asterisk. Start now. Visit https://snark.cloud/oci-free that's https://snark.cloud/oci-free.Corey: My favorite is people who don't do research on this stuff. They wind up saying, “Oh, yeah. Cloudflare is saying that bandwidth is a fixed cost. Of course not. They must be losing their shirt on this.”You are a publicly-traded company. Your gross margins are 76% or 77%, depending upon whether we're talking about GAAP or non-GAAP. Point being, you are clearly not selling this at a loss and hoping to make it up in volume. That's what a VC-backed company does. Is something that is real and as accurate.I want to, on some level, I guess, low-key apologize because I keep viewing Cloudflare through a lens that is increasingly inaccurate, which is as a CDN. But you've had Cloudflare Workers for a while, effectively Functions as a Service that run at the edge, which has this magic aura around it, that do various things, which is fascinating to me. You're launching R2; it feels like you are in some ways aiming at becoming a cloud provider, but instead of taking the traditional approach of building it from the region's outward, you're building it from the outward in. Is that a fair characterization?Matthew: I think that's right. I think fundamentally what Cloudflare is, is a network. And I remember early on in the pandemic, we did a series of fireside chats with people we thought we could learn from. And so was everyone from Andre Iguodala, the basketball player, to Mark Cuban, the entrepreneur, to we had a [unintelligible 00:25:56] governor and all kinds of things. And we these were just internal on off the record.And I got to do one with Eric Schmidt, the former CEO of Google. And I said, “You know, Eric, one of the things that we struggle with is describing what is Cloudflare.” And without hesitation, he said, “Oh, that's easy. You're the network I plug into and don't have to worry about anything else.” And I think that's better than I could say it, myself, and I think that's what it is that we fundamentally are: we're the network that fits together.Now, it turns out that in the process of being that network and enabling that network, we are going to build things like R2, which start to be an object store and starts to sort of step into some of the cloud provider space. And Workers is really just a way of programming that network in order to do that, but it turns out that there are a bunch of workloads that if you move them into the network itself, make sense—not going to be every workload, but a lot of workloads that makes sense there. And again, I think that you can actually be very bullish on all of the big public cloud providers and bullish on Cloudflare at the same time because what we want to do is enable the ability for people to mix and match, and change, and be the fabric that connects all of those things together. And so over time, if Amazon says, “We're going to drop egress fees,” it may be that R2 isn't a product that exists—I don't think they're going to do that, so I think it's something that is going to be successful for us and get a lot of new users to us—but fundamentally, I think that where the traditional public clouds think of themselves as the place you put data and you process data, I think we think of ourselves as the place you move data. And that's somewhat different.That then translates into it as we're building out the different pieces, where it does feel like we're building from the outside in. And it may be that over time, that put versus move distinction becomes narrower and narrower as we build more and more services like R2, and durable objects, and KV, and we're working on a database, and all those things. And it could be that we converge in a similar place.Corey: One thing I really appreciate about your vision because it is so atypical these days, is that you aren't trying to build the multifunction printer of companies. You are not trying to be all things to all people in every scenario. Which is impossible to do, but companies are still trying their level best to do it. You are staking out the bounds of where you were willing to start and where you're willing to stop, in a variety of different ways. I would be—how do I put it?—surprised if you at some point in the next five years come out with, “And this is our own database that we have built out that directly competes with the following open-source project that we basically have implemented their API and gone down that particular path.” It does not sound like it is in your core wheelhouse at that point. You don't need—to my understanding—to write your own database engine in order to do what you do.Matthew: Maybe. I mean, we actually are kind of working on a database because—Corey: Oh, no, here we go again.Matthew: [laugh]—and yeah—in a couple of different ways. So, the first way is, we want to make sure that if you're using Workers, you can connect to whatever database you want to use anywhere in the world. And that's something that's coming and we'll be there. At the same time, the challenge of distributed computing turns out not to be the computing, it turns out to be the data and figuring out how to—CAP theorem is real, right? Consistency, Availability, and Partition tolerance; you can pick any two out of the three, but you can't get all three.And so you there's always going to be some trade-off that's there. And so we don't see a lot of good examples. There's some really cool companies that are working on things in the space, but we don't see a lot of really good examples of who has built a database that can be run on a distributed workload system, like Cloudflare to it do well. And so our team internally needs that, and so we're trying to figure out how to build it for ourselves, and I would imagine that after we build it for ourselves—if it works the way we expect it will—that that will then be something that we open up.Our motivation and the way we think about products is we need to build the tools for our own team. Our team itself is customer zero, and then some of those things are very specific to us, but every once in a while, when there are functions that makes sense for others, then we'll build them as well. And that does maybe risk being the multifunction printer, but again, I think that because the customer for that starts with ourselves, that's how we think about it. And if there's someone else's making a great tool, we'll use that. But in this case, we don't see anyone that's built a multi-tenant, globally-distributed, ACID-compliant relational database.Corey: I can't let it pass on challenge. Sure they have, and you're running it yourself. DNS: the finest database in the world. You stuff whatever you want to text records, and now you have taken a finely crafted wrench and turned it into a barely acceptable hammer, which is what I love about doing that terrible approach. Yeah, relational is not going to quite work that way. But—Matthew: Yes. That's a fancy key-value store, right? So—and we've had that for a long time. As we're trying to build those things up, the good news is that, again, we've run data at scale for quite some time and proven that we can do it efficiently and reliably.Corey: There's a lot that can be said about building the things you need to deliver your product to customers. And maybe a database is a poor example here, but I don't see that your motivation in this space is to step into something completely outside your areas of expertise solely because there's money to be made over there. Well, yeah, fortune passes everywhere. The question is, which are you best positioned to wind up delivering an actual transformative solution to that space, and what parts of it are just rent-seeking where it's okay, we're going to go and wherever the money is, we're chasing that down.Matthew: Yeah, we're still a for-profit business, and we've been able to grow revenue well, but I think it is that what motivates us and what drives us comes back to our mission, which is how do you help build a better internet? And you can look at every single thing that we've done, and we try to be very long-term-oriented. So, for instance, when we in 2014 made encryption free, the number one reason at the time, when people upgraded for the free version of our service, the paid version of our service is they got encryption for that. And so it was super scary to say, “Hey, we're going to take the biggest feature and give it away for free,” but it was clearly the direction of history and we wanted to be on the right side of history. And we considered it a bug that the internet wasn't built in an encrypted way from the beginning.So, of course, that was going to head that direction. And so I think that we and then subsequently Let's Encrypt, and a bunch of others have said, it's absurd that you're charging for math. And again, I think that's a good example of how we think about products. And we want to continue to disrupt ourselves and take the things that once upon a time were reserved for our customers that spend $10 million-plus with us, and we want to keep pushing those things down because, over time, the real opportunity is if you do right by customers, there will be plenty of ways that you can earn some of their budget. And again, we think that is the long-term winning strategy.Corey: I would agree with this. You're not out there making sneakers and selling them because you see people spend a lot of money on that; you're delivering value for customers. I say this as one of your paying customers. I have zero problem paying you every month like clockwork, and it is the least cloud-like experience because I know exactly what the bill is going to be in advance, which is apparently not how things should be done in this industry, yadda, yadda, yadda. It is a refreshingly delightful experience every time.The few times I've had challenges with the service, it has almost always been a—I'll call it a documentation gap, where the way it was explained in the formal documentation was not how I conceptualize things, which, again, explaining what these complex things are to folks who are not steeped in certain areas of them is always going to be a challenge. But I cannot think back to a single customer service failure I've had with you folks. I can't look back at any point where you have failed me as a customer, which is a strange thing to say, given how incredibly efficient I am at stumbling over weird bugs.Matthew: Terrific to have you as a customer. We are hardly perfect and we make mistakes, but one of the things I think that we try to do and one of the core values of Cloudflare is transparency. If I think about, like, the original sins of tech, a lot of it is this bizarre secrecy which pervades the entire industry. When we make mistakes, we talk about them, and we explain them. When there's an error, we don't throw up a white page; we put up a page that has our logo on it because we want to own it.And that sometimes gets blowback because you're in front of it, but again, I think it's the right thing to do for customers. And it's and I think it's incredibly important. One of the things that's interesting is you mentioned that you know what your bill is going to be. If you go back and look at the history of hosting on the internet, in the early days of internet hosting, it looks a lot like AWS.Corey: Oh, 95th percentile transit billing; go for one five minutes segment over and boom, your bill explodes. Oh, I remember those days. Unkindly.Matthew: And it was super complicated. And then what happened is the hosting world switched from this incredibly complicated billing to much more simplified, predictable, unlimited bandwidth with maybe some asterisks, but largely that was in place. And then it's strange that Amazon came along and then has brought us back to the more complicated world that's out there. I would have predicted that that's a sine wave—Corey: It has to be. I mean—Matthew: —and it's going to go back and forth over time. But I would have predicted that we would be more in the direction of coming back toward simplify, everything included. And again, I think that's how we've priced our things from the beginning. I'm surprised that it has held on as long as it has, but I do think that there's going to be an opportunity for—and I don't think Amazon will be the leader here, but I think there will be an opportunity for one of the big clouds.And again, I think Oracle is probably doing this the best of any of them right now—to say, “How can we go away from that complexity? How can we make bills predictable? How can we not nickel and dime everything, but allow you to actually forecast and budget?” And it just seems like that's the natural arc of history, and we will head back toward that. And, again, I think we've done our part to push that along. And I'm excited that other cloud providers seem to be thinking about that now as well.Corey: Oh, yeah. What I do with fixing AWS bills is the same thing folks were doing in the 70s and 80s with long-distance bills for companies. We're definitely hitting that sine wave. I know that if I were at AWS in a leadership role, I would be actively embarrassed that the company that is delivering a better customer experience around financial things is Oracle of all companies, given their history of audits and surprising people and the rest. It is ridiculous to me.One last topic that I want to cover with you before we call it an episode is, back in college, you had a thesis that you have done an excellent job of effectively eliminating from the internet. And the theme of this, to my understanding, was that the internet is a fad. And I am so aligned with that because I'm someone who has said for years that emerging technologies are fads. I've said it about cloud, about virtualization, about containers. And I just skipped Kubernetes. And now I'm all-in on serverless, which means, of course it's going to fail because I'm always wrong on these things. But tell me about that.Matthew: When I was seven years old in 1980, my grandmother gave me an Apple ][+ computer for Christmas. And I took to it like a just absolute duck to water and did things that made me very popular in junior high school, like going to computer camp. And my mom used to sign up for continuing education classes at the local university in computer science, and basically sneak me in, and I'd do all the homework and all that. And I remember when I got to college, there was a small group of students that would come around and help other students set their computer up, and I had it all set up and was involved. And so, got pretty deeply involved in the computer science program at college.And then I remember there was a group of three other students—so they were four of us—and they wanted to start an online digital magazine. And at the time, this was pre-web, or right in the early days of the web; it was sort of nineteen… ninety-three. And we built it originally on old Apple technology called HyperCard. And we used to email out the old HyperCard stacks. And the HyperCard stacks kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and we'd send them out to the school so [laugh] that we—so we kept crashing the mail servers.But the college loved this, so they kept buying bigger and bigger mail servers. But they were—at some point, they said, “This won't scale. You got to switch technologies.” And they introduced us to two different groups. One was a printer company based out in San Francisco that had this technology called PDF. And I was a really big fan of PDF. I thought PDF was the future, it was definitely going to be how everything got published.And then the other was this group of dorky graduate students at the University of Illinois that had this thing called a browser, which was super flaky, and crashed all the time, and didn't work. And so of the four of us, I was the one who voted for PDF and the other three were like, “Actually, I think this HTML thing is going to be a hit.” And we built this. We won an award from Wired—which was only a print magazine at the time—that called us the first online-only weekly publication. And it was such a struggle to get anyone to write for it because browsers sucked and, you know, trying to get students on campus, but no one on campus cared.We would get these emails from the other side of the world, where I remember really clearly is this—in broken English—email from Japan saying, “I love the magazine. Please keep writing more for the magazine.” And I remember thinking at the time, “Why do I care if someone in Japan is reading this if the girl down the hall who I have a crush on isn't?” Which is obviously what motivates dorky college students like myself. And at that same time, you saw all of this internet explosion.I remember the moment when Netscape went public and just blew through all the expectations. And it was right around the time I was getting ready to graduate for college, and I was kind of just burned out on the entire thing. And I thought, “If I can't even get anyone to write for this dopey magazine and yet we're winning awards, like, this stuff has to all just be complete garbage.” And so wrote a thesis on—ehh, it was not a very good [laugh] thesis. It's—but one of the things I said was that largely the internet was a fad, and that if it wasn't, that it had some real risks because if you enabled everyone to connect with whatever their weird interests and hobbies were, that you would very quickly fall to the lowest common denominator. And predicted some things that haven't come true. I thought for sure that you would have both a liberal and conservative search engine. And it's a miracle to this day, I think that doesn't exist.Corey: Now, that you said it, of course, it's going to.Matthew: Well, I don't know I've… [sigh] we'll see. But it is pretty amazing that Google has been able to, again, thread that line and stay largely apolitical. I'm surprised there aren't more national search engines; the fact that it only Russia and China have national search engines and France and Germany don't is just strange to me. It seems like if you're controlling the source of truth and how people find it, that seems like something that governments would try and take over. There are some things that in retrospect, look pretty wise, but there were a lot more things that looked really, really stupid. And so I think at some level, I had to build Cloudflare to atone for that stupidity all those years ago.Corey: There's something to be said for looking back and saying, “Yeah, I had an opinion, and with the light of new information, I am changing my opinion.” For some reason, in some circles, it feels like that gets interpreted as a sign of weakness, but I couldn't disagree more, it's, “Well, I had an opinion based upon what I saw at the time. Turns out, I was wrong, and here we are.” I really wish more people were capable of doing that.Matthew: It's one of the things we test for in hiring. And I think the characteristic that describes people who can do that well is really empathy. The understanding that the experiences that you have lead you to have a unique set of insights, but they also create a unique set of blind spots. And it's rare that you find people that are able to do that. And whenever you do—whenever we do we hire them.Corey: To that end, as far as hiring and similar topics go, if people want to learn more about how you view things, and how you see the world, and what you're releasing—maybe even potentially work with you—where can they find you?Matthew: [laugh]. So, the joke, sometimes, internal at Cloudflare is that Cloudflare is a blogging company that runs this global network just to have something to write about. So, I think we're unlike most corporate blogs, which are—if our corporate blog were typical, we'd have articles on, like, “Here are the top six reasons you need a fast website,” which would just be, you know, shoot me. But instead, I think we write about the things that are going on online and our unique view into them. And we have a core value of transparency, so we talk about that. So, if you're interested in Cloudflare, I'd encourage you to—especially if you're of the sort of geekier variety—to check out blog.cloudflare.com, and I think that's a good place to learn about us. And I still write for that occasionally.Corey: You're one of the only non-AWS corporate blogs that I pay attention to, for that exact reason. It is not, “Oh, yay. More content marketing by folks who just feel the need to hit a quota as opposed to talking about something valuable and interesting.” So, it's appreciated.Matthew: The secret to it was we realized at some point that the purpose of the blog wasn't to attract customers, it was to attract potential employees. And it turns out, if you sort of change that focus, then you talk to people like their peers, and it turns out then that the content that you create is much more authentic. And that turns out to be a great way to attract customers as well.Corey: I want to thank you for taking so much time out of your day to speak with me. I really appreciate it.Matthew: Thanks for all you're doing. And we're very aligned, and keep fighting the good fight. And someday, again, we'll eliminate cloud egress fees, and we can share a beer when we do.Corey: I will absolutely be there for it. Matthew, Prince, CEO, and co-founder of Cloudflare. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with a rambling comment explaining that while data packets into a cloud provider are cheap and crappy, the ones being sent to the internet are beautiful, bespoke, unicorn snowflakes, so of course they cost money.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Marin Todorov joins Tim to discuss his work on Swift Concurrency and Apple's DocC. He has just finished contributing to the RayWenderlich book, Combine: Asynchronous Programming with Swift and has an upcoming book on Modern Concurrency in Swift. He is also one of the original contributors on Apple's open source DocC. Special Guest: Marin Todorov.

With over 30 years of history, TidBITs is the longest-running tech publication covering Apple in the world. This week, one of its founders, Adam Engst, drops by the show to talk about his writing workflow, unusual input devices and how WWDC has changed over the years.

With over 30 years of history, TidBITs is the longest-running tech publication covering Apple in the world. This week, one of its founders, Adam Engst, drops by the show to talk about his writing workflow, unusual input devices and how WWDC has changed over the years.

◯ルネサス主力工場で火災、自動車向け半導体の生産に影響 https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/1c05f670482d46a0d159ac7812a28135e968ecf2 ◯モバイルSuicaがシステムメンテナンス中 https://k-tai.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/1313054.htm https://www.jreast.co.jp/mobilesuica/caution/202103/ ◯アップルの初代「HomePod」が在庫限りで販売終了。miniに集中 https://www.phileweb.com/news/d-av/202103/13/52278.html ◯アップル新型「iPad Pro」4月6日発売?　専用ケースが誤って陳列 https://ascii.jp/elem/000/004/047/4047460/ ◯新型iPad ProはThunderbolt/USB4搭載？　早ければ4月にも https://www.itmedia.co.jp/news/articles/2103/18/news067.html ◯M1Xチップ搭載30インチiMacの性能が、iMac Proを超える～リーカーが投稿 https://iphone-mania.jp/news-355202/ ◯M1 Mac対応Photoshopが正式版に　Adobe「1.5倍高速化を確認」 https://www.itmedia.co.jp/news/articles/2103/11/news077.html ◯HyperCardの思い出　ゲームスタック作家だったあの頃 https://www.itmedia.co.jp/news/articles/2103/19/news073.html ◯Netflixが東宝スタジオ2棟を賃借　「七人の侍」「ゴジラ」が生まれた場所を長期的な制作拠点に https://www.itmedia.co.jp/news/articles/2103/18/news085.html

◯ルネサス主力工場で火災、自動車向け半導体の生産に影響 https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/1c05f670482d46a0d159ac7812a28135e968ecf2 ◯モバイルSuicaがシステムメンテナンス中 https://k-tai.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/1313054.htm https://www.jreast.co.jp/mobilesuica/caution/202103/ ◯アップルの初代「HomePod」が在庫限りで販売終了。miniに集中 https://www.phileweb.com/news/d-av/202103/13/52278.html ◯アップル新型「iPad Pro」4月6日発売?　専用ケースが誤って陳列 https://ascii.jp/elem/000/004/047/4047460/ ◯新型iPad ProはThunderbolt/USB4搭載？　早ければ4月にも https://www.itmedia.co.jp/news/articles/2103/18/news067.html ◯M1Xチップ搭載30インチiMacの性能が、iMac Proを超える～リーカーが投稿 https://iphone-mania.jp/news-355202/ ◯M1 Mac対応Photoshopが正式版に　Adobe「1.5倍高速化を確認」 https://www.itmedia.co.jp/news/articles/2103/11/news077.html ◯HyperCardの...

Är webben för komplicerad? Ämnet har diskuterats i Kodsnacks Slack-kanal, och Fredrik tar hjälp av Anton Österberg och Anton Gunnarsson för att vrida och vända på sina och andras tankar. Om vi fick välja på en webb som bara var dokument, och en som bara var en app-plattform, vad hade vi valt då? Har vi vett att uppskatta webben för var den är? Komplext, komplicerat, eller både och? Anton Gunnarsson försvarar och gillar Flash. Fredrik associerar vidare till Hypercard. Det kanske finns mer att lära sig, men det som var enkelt förr är ofta enkelt fortfarande, och nu kan vi bygga så mycket mer utöver det. Allt som känns komplext och komplicerat kanske har ett syfte, trots allt? Ett stort tack till Cloudnet som sponsrar vår VPS! Har du kommentarer, frågor eller tips? Vi är @kodsnack, @tobiashieta, @oferlund, och @bjoreman på Twitter, har en sida på Facebook och epostas på info@kodsnack.se om du vill skriva längre. Vi läser allt som skickas. Gillar du Kodsnack får du hemskt gärna recensera oss i iTunes! Du kan också stödja podden genom att ge oss en kaffe (eller två!) på Ko-fi, eller handla något i vår butik. Länkar Anton Österberg Anton Gunnarsson (Twitter) Grannpodden Asdf har också diskuterat ämnet Originaltweetet och Rachels respons Rachel Nabors Web-USB three.js react-three-fiber Create react app Objective-C Interface builder Rome Babel Ryan Dahl Deno Tio saker jag ångrar med Node Animera filmer i React - Remotion Hypercard Hypercards skapande Myst Webassembly Svelte Paul Henschel - skapare av React three fiber Evan You - skapare av Vue Rich Harris - skapare av Svelte Vite - Vues Webpack Netlify Let’s encrypt PUL Titlar För mig och Anton är det inte så svårt Alla andra heter Anton Mer än bara dokument Man ska aldrig bygga appar på webben Webben är det jag kan Du förväntades inte bygga en katedral Komplex och komplicerad Komplicerat vs komplext Mycket backend i mina dagar Paket i världens hierarki Om vi hade börjat om idag Utrymme att tänka nya saker Superlim mellan korten 20-talets motsvarighet till Flash

80年代後半にMacintosh向けに突如登場したHyperCard。QuickDrawなどMac OSの描画系を実装したBill Atkinsonによって作られたこのアプリケーションの登場が、続く90年代のマルチメディアの幕開けであったと言えるでしょう。今回はMacintosh関連を始めとした数々の書籍をお書きになったテクノロジー・ライターの大谷さんと、HyperCardが開いた世界と現代に与えた影響、まだ成し遂げられていない価値などを話していきたいと考えてます。 ※3/7 Clubhouseにてトークしたものを、各自ローカルで録音して編集したものです。 0:00:00 オープニング 0:03:25 HyperCardとは何か？ 0:11:14 大谷さんとMacintosh / HyperCardとの出会い 0:18:52 Bill Atkinson 0:27:01 Magic Slate プロジェクト 0:32:50 BasukeのHyperCard初体験 0:38:09 スタックというエコシステムの始まり 0:47:01 Internetがまだなかった時代の情報伝達 0:50:29 HyperTalk 0:53:57 幻のHyperCard 3.0 と QuickTime Interactive 0:56:53 Jobsの閉鎖主義とユーザー環境の均一性 1:01:18 大谷さんの初期Macの魔改造 1:07:32 HyperCardの拡張性 1:10:35 HyperCardと教育市場 1:14:16 その後のWebへの影響？ 1:17:16 トリップ中に思いついたHyperCard構想 1:19:52 Hypertextの提唱者テッド・ネルソン 1:26:02 受け継がれなかったHyperCardのオーサリング環境 1:40:19 HyperCardは今の世に蘇るか --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/basuke-suzuki/support

Welcome to the History of Computing Podcast, where we explore the history of information technology. Because understanding the past prepares us for the innovations of the future! Todays episode is on the history of Wikipedia. The very idea of a single location that could store all the known information in the world began with Ptolemy I, founder of the Greek dynasty that ruled Egypt following the death of Alexander the great. He and his son amassed 100s of thousands of scrolls in the Library and Alexandria from 331 BC and on. The Library was part of a great campus of the Musaeum where they also supported great minds starting with Ptolemy I's patronage of Euclid, the father of geometry, and later including Archimedes, the father of engineering, Hipparchus, the founder of trigonometry, Her, the father of math, and Herophilus, who gave us the scientific method and countless other great hellenistic thinkers. The Library entered into a slow decline that began with the expulsion of intellectuals from Alexandria in 145BC. Ptolemy VIII was responsible for that. Always be weary of people who attack those that they can't win over especially when they start blaming the intellectual elite for the problems of the world. This began a slow decline of the library until it burned, first with a small fire accidentally set by Caesar in 48BC and then for good in the 270s AD. In the centuries since there have been attempts here and there to gather great amounts of information. The first known encyclopedia was the Naturalis Historiae by Pliny the Elder, never completed because he was killed in the eruption of Vesuvius. One of the better known being the Encyclopedia Britannica, starting off in 1768. Mass production of these was aided by the printing press but given that there's a cost to producing those materials and a margin to be made in the sale of those materials that encouraged a somewhat succinct exploration of certain topics. The advent of the computer era of course led to encyclopedias on CD and then to online encyclopedias. Encyclopedias at the time employed experts in certain fields and paid them for compiling and editing articles for volumes that would then be sold. As we say these days, this was a business model just waiting to be disrupted. Jimmy Wales was moderating an online discussion board on Objectivism and happened across Larry Sanger in the early 90s. They debated and became friends. Wales started Nupedia, which was supposed to be a free encyclopedia, funded by advertising revenue. As it was to be free, they were to recruit thousands of volunteer editors. People of the caliber that had been previously hired to research and write articles for encyclopedias. Sanger, who was pursuing a PhD in philosophy from Ohio State University, was hired on as editor-in-chief. This was a twist on the old model of compiling an encyclopedia and a twist that didn't work out as intended. Volunteers were slow to sign up, but Nupedia went online in 2000. Later in the year there had only been two articles that made it through the review process. When Sanger told Ben Kovitz about this, he recommended looking at the emerging wiki culture. This had been started with WikiWikiWeb, developed by Ward Cunningham in 1994, named after a shuttle bus that ran between airport terminals at the Honolulu airport. WikiWikiWeb had been inspired by Hypercard but needed to be multi-user so people could collaborate on web pages, quickly producing content on new patterns in programming. He wanted to make non-writers feel ok about writing. Sanger proposed using a wiki to be able to accept submissions for articles and edits from anyone but still having a complicated review process to accept changes. The reviewers weren't into that, so they started a side project they called Wikipedia in 2001 with a user-generated model for content, or article, generation. The plan was to generate articles on Wikipedia and then move or copy them into Nupedia once they were ready. But Wikipedia got mentioned on Slashdot. In 2001 there were nearly 30 million websites but half a billion people using the web. Back then a mention on the influential Slashdot could make a site. And it certainly helped. They grew and more and more people started to contribute. They hit 1,000 articles in March of 2001 and that increased by 10 fold by September, By And another 4 fold the next year. It started working independent of Nupedia. The dot-com bubble burst in 2000 and by 2002 Nupedia had to lay Sanger off and he left both projects. Nupedia slowly died and was finally shut down in 2003. Eventually the Wikimedia Foundation was built to help unlock the world's knowledge, which now owns and operates Wikipedia. Wikimedia also includes Commons for media, Wikibooks that includes free textbooks and manuals, Wikiquote for quotations, Wikiversity for free learning materials, MediaWiki the source code for the site, Wikidata for pulling large amounts of data from Wikimedia properties using APIs, Wikisource, a library of free content, Wikivoyage, a free travel guide, Wikinews, free news, Wikispecies, a directory containing over 687,000 species. Many of the properties have very specific ways of organizing data, making it easier to work with en masse. The properties have grown because people like to be helpful and Wales allowed self-governance of articles. To this day he rarely gets involved in the day-to-day affairs of the wikipedia site, other than the occasional puppy dog looks in banners asking for donations. You should donate. He does have 8 principles the site is run by: 1. Wikipedia's success to date is entirely a function of our open community. 2. Newcomers are always to be welcomed. 3. “You can edit this page right now” is a core guiding check on everything that we do. 4. Any changes to the software must be gradual and reversible. 5. The open and viral nature of the GNU Free Documentation License and the Create Commons Attribution/Share-Alike License is fundamental to the long-term success of the site. 6. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. 7. Anyone with a complaint should be treated with the utmost respect and dignity. 8. Diplomacy consists of combining honesty and politeness. This culminates in 5 pillars wikipedia is built on: 1. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. 2. Wikipedia is written from a neutral point of view. 3. Wikipedia is free content that anyone can use, edit, and distribute. 4. Wikipedia's editors should treat each other with respect and civility. 5. Wikipedia has no firm rules. Sanger went on to found Citizendium, which uses real names instead of handles, thinking maybe people will contribute better content if their name is attached to something. The web is global. Throughout history there have been encyclopedias produced around the world, with the Four Great Books of Song coming out of 11th century China, the Encyclopedia of the Brethren of Purity coming out of 10th century Persia. When Wikipedia launched, it was in English. Wikipedia launched a German version using the deutsche.wikipedia.com subdomain. It now lives at de.wikipedia.com and Wikipedia has gone from being 90% English to being almost 90 % non-English, meaning that Wikipedia is able to pull in even more of the world's knowledge. Wikipedia picked up nearly 20,000 English articles in 2001, over 75,000 new articles in 2002, and that number has steadily climbed wreaching over 3,000,000 by 2010, and we're closing in on 6 Million today. The English version is 10 terabytes of data uncompressed. If you wanted to buy a printed copy of wikipedia today, it would be over 2500 books. By 2009 Microsoft Encarta shut down. By 2010 Encyclopedia Britannica stopped printing their massive set of books and went online. You can still buy encyclopedias from specialty makers, such as the World Book. Ironically, Encyclopedia Britannica does now put real names of people on articles they produce on their website, in an ad-driven model. There are a lot of ads. And the content isn't linked to as many places nor as thorough. Creating a single location that could store all the known information in the world seems like a pretty daunting task. Compiling the non-copywritten works of the world is now the mission of Wikipedia. The site receives the fifth most views per month and is read by nearly half a billion people a month with over 15 billion page views per month. Anyone who has gone down the rabbit hole of learning about Ptolemy I's involvement in developing the Library of Alexandria and then read up on his children and how his dynasty lasted until Cleopatra and how… well, you get the point… can understand how they get so much traffic. Today there are over 48,000,000 articles and over 37,000,000 registered users who have contributed articles meaning if we set 160 Great Libraries of Alexandria side-by-side we would have about the same amount of information Wikipedia has amassed. And it's done so because of the contributions of so many dedicated people. People who spend hours researching and building pages, undergoing the need to provide references to cite the data in the articles (btw wikipedia is not supposed to represent original research), more people to patrol and look for content contributed by people on a soapbox or with an agenda, rather than just reporting the facts. Another team looking for articles that need more information. And they do these things for free. While you can occasionally see frustrations from contributors, it is truly one of the best things humanity has done. This allows us to rediscover our own history, effectively compiling all the facts that make up the world we live in, often linked to the opinions that shape them in the reference materials, which include the over 200 million works housed at the US Library of Congress, and over 25 million books scanned into Google Books (out of about 130 million). As with the Great Library of Alexandria, we do have to keep those who seek to throw out the intellectuals of the world away and keep the great works being compiled from falling to waste due to inactivity. Wikipedia keeps a history of pages, to avoid revisionist history. The servers need to be maintained, but the database can be downloaded and is routinely downloaded by plenty of people. I think the idea of providing an encyclopedia for free that was sponsored by ads was sound. Pivoting the business model to make it open was revolutionary. With the availability of the data for machine learning and the ability to enrich it with other sources like genealogical research, actual books, maps, scientific data, and anything else you can manage, I suspect we'll see contributions we haven't even begun to think about! And thanks to all of this, we now have a real compendium of the worlds knowledge, getting more and more accurate and holistic by the day. Thank you to everyone involved, from Jimbo and Larry, to the moderators, to the staff, and of course to the millions of people who contribute pages about all the history that makes up the world as we know it today. And thanks to you for listening to yet another episode of the History of Computing Podcast. We're lucky to have you. Have a great day! Note: This work was produced in large part due to the compilation of historical facts available at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Wikipedia

An interview with Freek Van der Herten, lead developer at Spatie. @freekmurze Spatie ColecoVision HyperCard BASIC Krautrock Antwerp Browsershot package Spatie Postcard Page Oh Dear! Transcription sponsored by Larajobs Editing sponsored by Tighten Matt Stauffer: Welcome back to the Laravel podcast, season three. Today we're going to be talking with Freek Van der Herten, (pronounced) something like that. He works with Spatie, and they make packages and do all sorts of great things. Stay tuned, you'll learn more. Matt Stauffer: All right, real quick note going into this episode. I just moved offices, and I only noticed after moving that the movers bumped the gain knob on my audio. So it's not going to sound great. I apologize ahead of time. But don't blame Michael, it's not his fault. It's my fault. Sort of the movers, but mainly just me. All right, let's get on with the episode. Matt Stauffer: All right, welcome back to the Laravel podcast, season three. This is a season where we learn about all sorts of amazing people. You may have heard of them before, you may not have heard of them before, but they're all absolutely incredible, and if their name is not English, then I also mangle it terribly and they fix it up for me. Matt Stauffer: Today we're talking to ... okay, Freek Van der Herten, (pronounced) something like that, who is one of the leads ... [crosstalk] Oh, no, you're going to do it for me in a second, and then you can grade me on how well I did. And you're also going to have to grade me on how well I do the name of your company, because I have been told that I say it wrong. So, Spatie, which apparently is close but not quite right. So that's a company. They make packages, they do open source Laravel stuff, all this kind of stuff. You've seen their open source packages, used those packages, you've seen his blog, you've seen him on Twitter, all that kind of stuff. Matt Stauffer: So the first thing that I'm going to ask him to do is first say his name and his company's name right. Second, grade my pronunciation and see if he can make me do it any better. And third, ask the first question we always ask, which is, when you meet people in the grocery store, how do you tell people what it is that you do? Freek Van der Herten: Okay. Let me pronounce it just right. My name is Freek Van der Herten. I work for a company called Spatie. And I would rate your pronunciation an 8 out of 10 or a 9 out of 10, so it's pretty good. You did it pretty well. Matt Stauffer: All right, for an American, that's a pretty good number, so I'll take it. Freek Van der Herten: So at the grocery store, if somebody asks what I do, I simply say that I make websites, I'm a programmer. So I try to make it really easy, because I am mostly on the back end stuff, and for people that are not into back end, that's all a little bit fuzzy. And with websites, they immediately know, oh yeah, he creates those. Yeah. Freek Van der Herten: And I always say, I'm not going to install printers. That's not my job. I program stuff. Matt Stauffer: That's perfect, because if you say I work with computers, that leaves that open. You might be a networking person or something like that. So I can hear in your pronunciation a little bit of the ways that I'm off. So I'll go back, listen to this 10,000 times, and see if I can get it right. But an 8 out of 10 or a 9 out of 10 for a Southern American, I'm going to take that as a win. Freek Van der Herten: It's pretty good, man. Matt Stauffer: Right. So I mentioned this real quick, but Spatie, Spatie, whatever it is, they have 10,000 packages. Some of our questions are going to be about all of the Laravel packages you have, a little bit about your tweeting and your sharing of content. But of course, if anybody doesn't know who he is, just check him out. So I also don't know ... I know that I asked you personally, and I know where your Twitter handle comes from, but not everybody else does, and I don't actually know how you pronounce it. So tell us your Twitter handle, where it comes from, and how you actually say it in your mind. Freek Van der Herten: Well, my Twitter handle is @freekmurze, and it's actually a very good question, where it comes from. Freek is just my first name, but I have actually three names, and that's not that uncommon in Belgium. Most people have multiple first names, and mine are Frederick, because Freek is just a nickname, actually. My second name is [inaudible 00:03:59]. And the third name, which is a very special name, I don't think anybody has it now, it's Murzephelus. And Murzephelus is a name given by my parents, and it's an emperor, it's a Byzantium emperor, because both my parents are lawyers, and when they had me, there was this law in Belgium that you had to pick the name of your child from this big list of names that were approved, and they wanted to see what the city clerk would do if they just picked a name out of history that is not on that list. So they picked Murzephelus- Matt Stauffer: Rebels. I love it. Freek Van der Herten: And the clerk didn't say anything, they just wrote it down. Matt Stauffer: Nice. Very cool. It's funny, because- Freek Van der Herten: And I've also passed it down to my kids. So they also have Byzantium emperor names. Matt Stauffer: I love it, that's awesome. It's funny, 'cause when I first looked it up, I was like, oh, Mur-zeph-el-us. But it sounds a lot more regal when you say Murz-e-phlus. Matt Stauffer: All right, so that's your Twitter handle. So go follow him on Twitter if you don't know, he's got a newsletter and a blog. And one of the things that Freek does a lot is collect together the best stuff from other people, and so Spatie creates an incredible number of packages. Quite a few of them are original content, but one of the things they also do is they take stuff that other people are doing and they package it up together in a normalized way. So if somebody says, here's a thing on Laracasts or here's an idea or something like that, they will often make a package around it. And Freek both writes his own articles, and the people at Spatie write their own articles, and then they also collect together links to articles from other people around the community. So they're both creators and curators, and that's something kind of they're known for. So if you haven't seen them, go check out that stuff that they're doing. Matt Stauffer: Okay, that's fun. Moving on, when did you first get access to a computer? In what context, and what was your interaction with that computer like? Freek Van der Herten: I started using computers at a very early age. It was actually, also, my dad had bought a ColecoVision. I don't know if you know that console. Matt Stauffer: I've never heard of it. Freek Van der Herten: It was very big in the '80s, I think around '82 or '83. So I must have been three or four when my dad had a console and he let me play on it, and that was the first time I interacted with this on a screen. Matt Stauffer: What kind of operating system was it on? Freek Van der Herten: I don't know, it's a game console, so it's only- Matt Stauffer: Oh, a gaming console. Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, yeah, it only had games on it, and that was the first time I interacted with something and saw something moving on a screen. Matt Stauffer: Got it. Freek Van der Herten: Now shortly after that, I think two years after, we got our first computer in the house, which was, I think ... It was definitely a Macintosh, and I think it was an SE model. It's one of the first models. So my dad was a little bit of a computer freak, and he wanted, he had to buy this new stuff. So I started out with a System 6, I think it was, on Mac OS. And, yeah, I started ... yeah, there was a program on there called, maybe some people know it, called HyperCard, which was- Matt Stauffer: I've heard of it. Freek Van der Herten: It's a very simple application, which makes it very great. It's just a stack of cards which you can programmatically do stuff with. You can say, if somebody clicks here, go to card number three. If somebody clicks here, go to card number five. So I started to ... And if you click here, play a sound or display this image. So I made my first ... I don't know if I can call it computer programs, but I made my first projects with that little ... little games like that. So that was- Matt Stauffer: That's funny how different Mac and PC are, because I know about HyperCard, I saw it in school, but I never worked with it. But my first one was BASIC, and it's probably around the same time period. I was six or something, so it was around late '80s, early '90s. Freek Van der Herten: Yeah. Matt Stauffer: And it was such a different experience. I was learning syntax and code and able to do almost nothing, whereas with the Mac, it's giving you this visual, interactive system, and it's such a difference even back then of what you're getting from each of them. Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, 'cause at the school, we had a Windows computer. Yeah, a Windows 3.1 computer. But the Windows subsystem, that was just a shell. You had also MS-DOS behind it, and when I saw that, I thought, what is this? I'm going back in time, we have something way better at home. We have this thing like a mouse on there. Matt Stauffer: Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. Freek Van der Herten: So that was fun. So I've always been busy with computers and creating my own little things on it. Matt Stauffer: Did your interests keep up through school? Did you always think of yourself as a computer person? Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, I always knew I wanted to do something with computers. I studied IT as well, so I'm one of the lucky ones. At a very age, I knew I wanted to do this. But IT is very big, so I did a lot of things on my computer as well. At one point, I also did some sound technology, some songs, because that's another passion of mine. I'm also busy with music, I have my own band, and- Matt Stauffer: Okay, you're going to tell us more about that in a second. Freek Van der Herten: Yeah. So way before Laravel was there, when I still had time to do other stuff, I created music as well. But that helps a little bit with all the background, right, the background right now. Matt Stauffer: Okay. You know what, I actually am going to pause there. What musical instruments do you play, and it sounds like you were also recording. Were you doing mixing and mastering and production and everything? Freek Van der Herten: Just recording stuff, and a little bit of mastering, but then I'm not really good at it. Matt Stauffer: Yeah, yeah. Freek Van der Herten: My musical taste is a little bit lo-fi, so what I recorded was lo-fi as well. Matt Stauffer: Yeah, yeah. Freek Van der Herten: So I started ... My first instrument was, I think, the saxophone, when I was 10 years old. I had to do that for my parents. Yeah, you have to do musical school. Matt Stauffer: Yeah, yeah. Freek Van der Herten: But I didn't like it that much. I think the first two years were great but then I wasn't interested in the saxophone anymore. I tried to pick up the piano, and did a year of piano. And then I learned guitar myself, and that's an instrument where ... I stick a little bit by. So in all the bands that I- Matt Stauffer: Do you play acoustic or electric more? Sorry. Freek Van der Herten: It's more electric these days, 'cause, yeah, I play in a band and I have my electric guitar installed there. So I do that more. I do a little finger picking at home. I have the acoustic guitar here. But it's not as much as I used to. Matt Stauffer: What style of music do you play? Freek Van der Herten: It's a style called krautrock. I don't know if you know that. Matt Stauffer: I don't. You're going to have to send me the link later so I can put it in the show notes. Freek Van der Herten: Well, it's like this ... It's my favorite kind of music. It's like ... house music, like dance music. Very repetitive. But with guitars instead of electronic instruments. Matt Stauffer: Okay, all right. Freek Van der Herten: So there's some good bands that you should check out from the territory. It's very big in the '90s, there are bands like Can and Neu! And the ideas behind those bands revolve around ... with how, how do you say it in English, how can we keep things interesting with the least amount of notes? With three notes, what can we do. Just by repeating them, we'll make it interesting again. Matt Stauffer: Very interesting, yeah. Freek Van der Herten: And that's an aesthetic that I really like, just the simple things. The fertile things. Not too many whistles and bells with it, but just fertile, pure, straight to the point. Matt Stauffer: It's funny, 'cause when you said repetitive, the first thing I thought of was jam bands. And a lot of jam bands are a lot of noise. You've got 20 people on stage, but they're very repetitive and they're not interesting to me, because everybody's playing the same noisy notes over and over and over again, so it seems almost the opposite, at least in my very judgmental perspective, where you're trying to have very little noise, but actually keep it interesting. Freek Van der Herten: Yeah. I'll send you some interesting pieces to you. I have- Matt Stauffer: Yeah, I'll put it on the show notes, everybody. Freek Van der Herten: I've recently listened again to a few versions of a piece called In C. I don't know if you know it. It's a musical piece, I can't remember the author right now. It's probably going to go in my mind in a few seconds. And it's like 18 melodies of music, and it's 20 people playing them, and there are a few rules around it. When somebody plays the fourth tune, everybody still on the first tune should skip to the second. There can only be a gap of two. And then you go slowly to the end, and it lasts about an hour. And it's very simple melodies, but they interlock very, very well together. And it's not written on paper, how much times you have to repeat each melodic phrase. So every version is a little bit different. Matt Stauffer: Interesting, yeah. Freek Van der Herten: And that's interesting music to me. Matt Stauffer: So you could theoretically have one musician who's just really antsy to move on, and the whole thing would be done in 20 minutes? Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, yeah. Matt Stauffer: Oh, very interesting. Freek Van der Herten: That could be the case, yeah. Matt Stauffer: Everyone's glaring at that one guy. Freek Van der Herten: There are hundreds of versions of that, but they're all amazing. Matt Stauffer: Very interesting, okay. Like I said, I'm going to get him to write all this down for us. Links in the show notes later. Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, sure. Matt Stauffer: I'm super interested to learn about that. So you said you don't do as much music now, is that true? Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, that's true. Matt Stauffer: I hear you right? Freek Van der Herten: Yeah. So when I was a little bit younger, I think when I was around 20s, then I had a little studio in my own apartment, and I recorded lots of songs. That was my main hobby then. Nowadays, it's programming, but then it was every moment of free time that I had, I have to record stuff, I have to experiment with stuff, which is ... Yeah, sometimes I listen back to those recordings, like every five years or something, and I am still a little bit proud that there's something that I accomplished. Matt Stauffer: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, I spent that much time, I got that good, even if I couldn't do that right now, that's still something I did. Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Matt Stauffer: All right, well, I want to ask you more questions about that, but I also want to get to the end as well. All right, so when you first got into that, you said you had access to those Windows computers in school. So what did your school education look like? At what point did you start getting more than just typing lessons? Freek Van der Herten: I think when I was 14 or 15, we had lessons in a thing called Isolab. I don't know if that is a well-known program or not, but it's something we teach at school, and it's basically this grid, and there's a car in it and there are certain obstacles, and you have to write an algorithm to let the car reach a special end spot. Matt Stauffer: I want to do that now. Freek Van der Herten: And it's something to exercise things like loops, like memory, like and or not kind of stuff. And that are the first things that I learned to do. We also had a little bit of Visual Basic if you were ... I went into higher education, so we programmed things in Access. Access is this Microsoft database, where we had to program the streams and special reports and stuff like that, and I only got into programming, into real programming with computer languages, in higher education, where I got to learn C++ and COBOL. Things like that. Yeah, I learned COBOL. Matt Stauffer: Now, were you doing IT? Was it IT then, or were you specializing more in computer science? Freek Van der Herten: It was ... I don't know how you say it, how you translate that thing that I said it in English, but it's focused on practical IT. But it was in 1989 that I studied higher education, and yeah, internet wasn't as big like it is now. And we didn't have any lessons on HTML or the web. It was all on this enterprisey kind of stuff that we had to learn, like Java, like C++. Things like that. Matt Stauffer: Yeah. Huh. So when you say secondary education, do you mean when you were 18 years old, or when you were 14 years old? Freek Van der Herten: Secondary education, that's from 12 years old to 18 years old. Matt Stauffer: Oh, got it. Okay. Freek Van der Herten: And when you're 18 years old, you go to higher education. Some people go to ... Most people. Matt Stauffer: So even in 12-18 years old, you were able to specialize, 'cause in the US, in 12-18, you just do whatever they tell you to do. There's no specialization like that. Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, there are. Matt Stauffer: So you were able to focus on a certain track. Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, yeah. From 12 years old, or I think from 13, you can really pick your direction if you want to ... a language kind of education, a mathematical based education, an IT kind of education. So you can make a choice there a little bit. Matt Stauffer: Okay. And also did you ... Oh, go ahead. Freek Van der Herten: And of course, when you're 18, then you have much more choices, so they get you basically anything that you want. Matt Stauffer: Okay. So where did you go after secondary education, then? Freek Van der Herten: So, I did my secondary education in my hometown, which is a small town in the northern part of Belgium. But I always knew that when I'm going to higher education, I don't want to live at home anymore. I want to live by myself. All my friends were in that mindset. We're 18, we're going to move, we're going to get away from our parents, even though we all love our parents, it's not [crosstalk]- Matt Stauffer: Yeah, yeah. Freek Van der Herten: We're now grownups. Matt Stauffer: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Freek Van der Herten: So I moved to the biggest city in the vicinity of my hometown, which is a city called Antwerp. Matt Stauffer: Okay, yeah. Freek Van der Herten: Where I've lived for a long time, and Spatie is still based here. And I went to school there, and I left home. My student life in the city of Antwerp. Matt Stauffer: Okay. That's actually one of the only cities I know there, so that's a good win for me. I'm nodding, I actually heard of that before, that's good. Go me. Freek Van der Herten: You should come to Antwerp, it's a beautiful city. You would enjoy it. Matt Stauffer: Oh, I would love to. Yeah. Freek Van der Herten: It's not that far from Amsterdam. Matt Stauffer: I said in the last podcast, once you get Americans over to Europe, we don't want to leave, because it's so expensive to get over there, which is why it was so crazy. I was there for Laravel Live UK for five days and then came home. But the next ... I'm trying to get my kids to the age where I can take them over, because once I have the whole family over there, I'll just work from there. It doesn't matter. So I'm hoping someday in the next couple years, we'll get a whole month and just go see everybody in the whole Laravel world, and just stay in everybody's town for a couple days. So Antwerp's on the list. Freek Van der Herten: Well, you're certainly welcome here. So do that. Matt Stauffer: All right. I won't get booted out of town, that's good. Matt Stauffer: Okay, so you went out ... So what did you study? Was it continued practical IT, or was it something different when you went into higher education? Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, that was practical IT that I studied. So that was more enterprise stuff, things that I learned there. Things like C++, like some math was still there. Things like analysis, how do you cope with a big, big project. And looking back at it, I really like what I was taught there, but a lot of the things that I learned there, after the years, I thought, yeah, what they taught me was a little bit wrong. Matt Stauffer: I was going to ask how you reflected on your education. Is there more you can say about that? Is there broad strokes you can make about what was good and what was bad? Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, so something that has really stuck with me is in one of the first lessons, I was taught, and I did it for years ... It's a very practical thing. A function can only have one return statement. And that fucked my career up so bad. Matt Stauffer: Yeah, I believe it. Freek Van der Herten: Enlightenment came only 10 years after. Hey, it's actually better to have early returns. But things like object calisthenics, I don't know when those ideas came, but they certainly weren't taught in school. So I'm skipping ahead 10 years now, but there was a time that I thought, man, I really wish that there were a few teachers back then that knew about the stuff that I'm learning now, because there is much more than the stuff that they taught me. Freek Van der Herten: It's not all bad. It's not all bad. They taught some good stuff as well. With the things I learned there, I landed my first job, which was something I didn't expect. I was a COBOL programmer for seven years or something like that, and I still remember when I was at the job interview, and they asked me, "So, what do you want to do?" And I said, "Anything except COBOL." And they gave me COBOL, and I did it for seven years. Freek Van der Herten: But it was kind of fun to do it. It was ... I worked for a major bank, maybe you know it. It's called ING. I think you have- Matt Stauffer: Yeah, yeah. I have, I used to have, or maybe still do. I don't know. For sure. Freek Van der Herten: I think they're operating in America as well, and yeah, I programmed COBOL there for the mainframe. Matt Stauffer: Okay, wow. Freek Van der Herten: So we did the financial stuff. So it was kind of important, what we did there. And I still look back very fondly to that period, because I had very good colleagues there, and we could do amazing stuff. Even with an old language like COBOL, we could really do some ... We really could program some nice solutions. And sometimes I miss the scale a little bit of programming in that way, because it's like, one-fifth of the country has an account on ING. Matt Stauffer: Yeah. Freek Van der Herten: And that's kind of fun to work on. Matt Stauffer: I know we're getting ahead of ourselves just a bit, but I asked this of J.T. as well. Programming in COBOL, and the programmers who have been in COBOL for years, and the patterns and practices you have are a little different, I imagine, than working with Laravel. Freek Van der Herten: Yeah. Matt Stauffer: Is there something, one or two things, that you experienced or learned during your time there that you think a lot of us that haven't had that sort of experience could benefit from hearing about? Any practices or any maxims or any sayings, or testing patterns or anything that you experienced there that you wish more people knew about? Freek Van der Herten: Let me think. One of the things that I already did at the time is testing a lot, but it was in an old way, so I can't recommend that. I think what sticks with me most from the time is not a technical programming thing that we did, but the team we did it with. The client communication between the team, and we were ... within the firm, we were one of the first groups that wrote standards for ourselves. We were going to name variables like this, we are indenting our code a little bit like that. We're going to use prefixes for that. We're going to use suffixes for that, which was really beneficial. And that's something we do at our company, at Spatie now as well. And that's something I think a lot of people could learn a little bit from, just some guidelines and be very, how do you say that in English, I can't remember, just where everything is always the same- Matt Stauffer: Consistent. Freek Van der Herten: Consistence. Keep consistence. Things like a dash or an underscore or when you case things. They seem like, hey, it's not important, but it's actually very important when you work in a team. Matt Stauffer: Yeah, I totally agree. Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, and that's something I picked up with working in a good team at ING. Matt Stauffer: Very cool. All right, so you got a job at ING right out of higher education, right? Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, yeah. Matt Stauffer: Okay. So what made you move, and where'd you move to? Freek Van der Herten: Well, that's a good question. So when I was working at ING for a couple of years, there were plans to split up the branch I was working in. So I worked in the insurance branch, and ING sold it off to another company. So it became apparent that our team had to split and had to move to different cities, and at the time, I didn't want to move cities. So I went for another job in Antwerp, another company that also does COBOL. But I was a little bit shellshocked there, at ING, because I had worked there for so long. I had this network of people, and I could get things done. I didn't have to follow the rules. I could cut some red tape. But at the new company, I didn't have a network, and it was so, so very frustrating for me that I couldn't get any things done. Freek Van der Herten: Now, at the time, I also had a friend of mine called Willem, and Willem, he just started this little company called Spatie- Matt Stauffer: I was going to say, I've heard that name before. Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, and he was doing everything by himself, and everything by himself. He programmed a little, he designed a little, he did all the client work by himself. And I'm sure it came up at a band rehearsal that we have, I really hate my job now. And then he said, "Yeah, would you want to program for the web?" Because I felt that he couldn't do everything by his own anymore. He was good in design but he didn't like programming as much, so he looked for somebody that wanted to program a little bit. Freek Van der Herten: But I wasn't certain at the time. So I did a couple of stuff for Willem first. But there's no way to sugarcoat this, because I was so bored at my job, I started just creating websites at my job itself, because I had basically ... This is the honest truth. They didn't give me enough work. So they gave me an assignment. Yeah, this is your assignment for a week, and after two hours it was done. So I reported to management, give me more work. And they didn't give me more work. So I started programming for the web and learning stuff for the web. Freek Van der Herten: And after half a year or something, I said, yeah, this is silly. I'm just working for myself at this job, so I just quit. And then I started working for Spatie. Matt Stauffer: What's your official role there right now? Freek Van der Herten: I'm, I guess, the lead developer there, although I don't like the term a little bit. That's what we tell people that we meet. Freek is our lead developer. So I still do a lot of programming day to day myself, but I also help my colleagues getting things done. I don't like thinking about the lead, with the term lead programmer. The thing that I don't like is this is the one that makes all the decisions and does all the code stuff, but I don't see that as my role. I have to help the other people getting their job done, so that's an important factor of the things I do day to day. Freek Van der Herten: And there's also a little bit leading the company a little bit, because I'm a partner there, so there's a lot of corporate stuff I need to do there as well. But the best thing is- Matt Stauffer: How many people are- Freek Van der Herten: The best days are the days that I can program myself. Matt Stauffer: Yeah. I totally feel you. How many people are on your team? Freek Van der Herten: Right now, it's seven people. Matt Stauffer: Okay. So the two of you. Is that five programmers, or are there any non-programmers on the team? Freek Van der Herten: There are now two non-programmers. Actually, we're at eight. We had a new hire two weeks ago. We're at eight now. Matt Stauffer: Congrats. Freek Van der Herten: We're with five programmers, one designer, and there is a project manager. So they handle client stuff. Matt Stauffer: Right, right. Freek Van der Herten: But our focus is in programming bigger Laravel applications now. So we started with smaller CMS kind of sites. But we moved on a little bit to the bigger things. That's also a story in itself, really. Matt Stauffer: Cool, yeah. Yeah, I don't know if we're going to have time for it, but I'm actually very curious about that story. But I have to pause this one time. Is there a sound at the end of the name of your company or not? Is it purely just Spatie? Freek Van der Herten: Yeah. Matt Stauffer: Cause sometimes I hear a little T, and sometimes I don't. Freek Van der Herten: No, it's Spatie. It's like, your pronunciation for Spatie is 10 out of 10. It's perfect, it's good. Yeah. Just Spatie. Matt Stauffer: Okay. Yeah. Spatie, okay. See, I was saying Spat-zie for a while, with a T. So Spatie (Spa sea). Freek Van der Herten: Spatie. Matt Stauffer: That's it. Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, yeah. That's perfect. Matt Stauffer: Okay. Now it's 10 out of 10. I got an 8 out of 10 the first time, you didn't even notice. Okay. All right, so I do want to talk about your relationship with the company, what kind of stuff you're all doing, 'cause I think that there's a lot of companies that do Laravel, and there's not a lot of companies that have public presence that are creating a lot of content and stuff like that. Matt Stauffer: And so I think what I want to know is, let's not even talk about the company yet. Let's talk about you. When did you go from being a programmer to a programmer who had garnered a reputation as someone who created packages and taught stuff? How intentional was it, what did that transition look like? What was Freek being a programmer who did web stuff to being Freek being a well-known teacher? What'd the shift between those look like? Freek Van der Herten: Well, it certainly wasn't intentional. I think now, six or seven years ago, we were still ... This was the time before we did Laravel. We were creating sites with Zend Framework 1. CMS kind of sites. And I remember getting a little bit bored with it, because at the time, the B2B world was becoming a little bit stale, I thought. This was also free composer. There was another ecosystem that attracted my attention, and it's really no surprise. That's Ruby, Ruby on Rails. Matt Stauffer: Rails, yeah. Yeah. Freek Van der Herten: That's a story I share with a lot of people in our community, I think. So I created a few Rails sites, and I thought, yeah, we're ready to jump ship off PHP. PHP is done. But then Composer happened and Laravel happened. So we started doing Laravel sites, and in Zend Framework, we had this whole CMS, a homegrown CMS build up, and I wanted to have that in Laravel. Freek Van der Herten: Now, I wanted to do it a piece at a time, and at the time, there was this guy called Jeffrey Way. He started Laracasts. Matt Stauffer: This little site. Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, this little site. Very small. And he put out a video of how to use Travis and GitHub together. And my mind was a little bit blown that you could just run your tests and see in the interface of GitHub if your tests were passing or not. And the lesson of Jeffrey was also around package development, and I thought, yeah, I want to do that as well. So I'm going to try to write a package. Freek Van der Herten: And I think one of the first ones was ... I think the Geocoder one, which was a wrap around the Geocoder service of Google. Or it was a Browsershot, maybe, which was a package that used PhantomJS to create screenshots of a web page. And I put that out, and some people liked it, which was mind-blowing to me. There's somebody here that did a pull request to fix a typo? Wow. This is really awesome. Freek Van der Herten: So I thought, yeah. I have to write another package. And when I took a look again at the Zend Framework 1 CMS, I saw, yeah, there's MailChimp in here. There's Google Analytics. There's something called the media library to handle assets. And I thought, yeah, these are all packages. Maybe I should package them all up for Laravel, so it wasn't planned, but I spent the next two or three years just doing that, putting that out. Matt Stauffer: Just repackaging, yeah, yeah. Freek Van der Herten: Just repackaging the old Zend Framework in code, Zend Framework 1 code, to modern packages with all the stuff I learned on Laracast. Freek Van der Herten: Now, at the same time, I was still the only programmer at Spatie, so we were only a three-man company. And we had an internal platform, something Microsofty, I can't remember the name, where we put interesting links on. And I was discovering so much interesting good content on the internet, and I'd post it there. But my two colleagues, the project manager and the designer, would say, "We're not interested in the deep programming stuff that you're putting there. We're interested in the ideas, but not in the nitty gritty details." Freek Van der Herten: So then I thought, hey, I'll just start a blog and I'll just put those things publicly on there. This is the stuff that interests me, maybe other programmers are interested as well. And with that combination, with starting a blog and writing about those packages, I guess, yeah. It picked up a little bit from there. People just liked the contents that was there, both my own stuff as the links that I shared. And yeah, it totally grew from there. Freek Van der Herten: But it certainly wasn't planned, like we were going to be well-known with this, that was the plan from the get-go. Matt Stauffer: Yeah. I noticed this initial commit on Browsershot is May 2, 2014. Freek Van der Herten: Yeah. Matt Stauffer: So four short years ago. Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I did a lot in the past few years. Matt Stauffer: Yeah. I think that it really helps to have some kind of structure to work along. The structure you're saying is, hey, you know what, I'm going to take this list of packages and I'm just going to work through them. And those sorts of structures that just give you something to work on next means you're never stuck asking the question, "Oh no, what do I do next?" You've always got something, you've just gotta make the time and put the effort in. Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, sure. And nowadays, actually the couple of past years, the most packages get born in client projects. So if there's a client project that's API-heavy, that we create some packages to make API development a little bit more easy in Laravel. And I also want to mention, because I'm talking about me here a lot, but now it sounds like that I'm the only one creating packages, but my colleagues do a tremendous amount of work on that as well. I want to emphasize that the open source efforts are a team effort, so it's not me alone. Although I'm the most known one, my colleagues, Brent, Alex, Seb, and Willem, do also incredible stuff out there. Matt Stauffer: Yeah. And actually, that's one of the things I was going to ask, because we're always figuring things out at Tighten ... We give everybody 20% time, so quite a bit of the work that's done at Tighten is done on those Fridays, but not all of it. Sometimes people are doing stuff on their own personal time. And you and I have talked a little bit in the past about what that looks like for you all, especially because you put out just such a prolific number of packages as a company. Are you able to make that much time available, or are people doing work at night? Matt Stauffer: So you and I have talked about it, but again, let's imagine that we have not. What does it look like for you, and what does it look like for the other people on the team, and how much of this stuff are you doing during the day job, and how many hours are you and the other folks working in the evenings, or nights and weekends, I guess? Freek Van der Herten: Well, for the company, we always plan the stuff that we need to do on Monday. We sit together and we say, "Hey, you're doing this this week. You're doing that this week." And we only plan four days. So for the fifth day, you can do whatever you want, but that fifth day, that isn't a separate day. It's like, the time in between. It's when you're bored with this project, yeah, go do something open source, write a blog post or write a package or whatever. Freek Van der Herten: So we have one day a week for everybody that can work on this open source stuff. Now, that's the theory, but yeah, in practice, packages get made in project time a little as well, because they're made for the project. Matt Stauffer: Right. Freek Van der Herten: So it's a little bit hazy, where to draw the line, a little bit. Matt Stauffer: Sure, sure. Freek Van der Herten: And I know that I spend a lot of time also open sourcing a little bit after the hours, because I like it. And sometimes, colleagues, when they have this good idea or a good vibe, I notice that they too do stuff in the evening, even though that's really not required to do so, it's really because they personally like-- Matt Stauffer: Yeah, just kind of excited about it, yeah. Freek Van der Herten: --just like doing this. And I think we've made so many packages now, it's really not such a big effort for us now to work on a package, because we know what the good things, the basic guidelines are for a good package. We know that have to have tests, we know that we need to have good documentation, we know how things like a service provider works. We have empathy enough now to imagine how people are going to use our stuff. So because we've done it a lot, it gets a little bit easier for us as well to do too. So people sometimes ask, isn't that difficult to invest so much knowledge and time in that? But I think for a company, it's kind of easy, because it has grown a little bit in our DNA. Matt Stauffer: Yeah, yeah. Freek Van der Herten: And if in a project, a colleague of mine says, "Hey Freek, should I package this up?" My default answer is, yeah, if you can do it, just do it. Take a couple of hours. Or if it's a bigger package, a couple of days extra, and just do it, 'cause we will benefit from it anyways. Maybe not because we are going to attract clients with it, but the programmer who made the package will become a better programmer. For Spatie it's good, because we have something in our package tool developed a little bit more. I always, when somebody takes an effort of making the package, I make sure that I mention the principal author of that package, which is not always me, also, on things. So everybody benefits with this. Freek Van der Herten: And I wish more companies would do this, 'cause if you take some time to do this, it isn't hard anymore. It just becomes part of your workflow to do this. Matt Stauffer: It's interesting, because at Tighten, we have a little bit of an inverse culture. People say, "Oh, we should make a package out of that." I'm like, "Are you sure that you want to maintain that for the next four years, 'cause if you don't, then don't make a package out of it." And I've actually talked people out of making packages, because I know that they don't yet understand what the cost of being an open source author looks like. Matt Stauffer: And it's not that I'm ever going to tell anybody no, but I am going to tell them, make sure that you know the burden that comes on. The moment people have this package in there, in their three years out of date app, what kind of customer support you're asking. And so I'm actually talking people out of it frequently, and what I'm more likely doing is when somebody says something interesting, I'm like, "Have you written a blog post about it? Have you written a blog post about it?" And quite a few people are like, "Yeah, Matt, I just put it on the list of 40 blog posts you're telling me I'm supposed to write. You have to start giving me more than one day a week to do these things." Matt Stauffer: But, no, I love your attitude towards packages. And one of the things that we've talked about in the past is we need all kinds of types. And for example, the packages we have at Tighten, there's only a few of them, and we maintain them back to Laravel 5.1. And one of the things you mentioned, is you say, look, we keep up to the most modern versions. And if somebody else wants to fork it and make an older version, then they're welcome to do so. Matt Stauffer: And so each group, each company, each author, has different things to contribute and to offer. And so I love the more people that are willing to make those packages, the more of a broad spectrum we have of people who are willing to participate in some way, shape, or form. There might be some company or some person who comes along, and their goal in life is to maintain all of Spatie's packages back to Laravel 5.1 or something like that, who knows. So each person is contributing a different thing to the community. Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, sure. Yeah, the cost of being a maintainer, it's a high cost sometimes. Matt Stauffer: Yeah, yeah. Freek Van der Herten: It's good that you make people aware of that. For us, we carry the load as a team, so everybody does a little bit of maintenance, and we have the pleasure of having a lot of people in the community helping us out as well. For every package there are a lot of contributors there, so, yah, I'm pretty happy where we stand right now. And I've also learned to sometimes just let it go, you know? Two or three or years ago I wanted to have the issue count as low as possible, and now I've learned that that really isn't important, if there's some more stuff to do, just leave it open. I'm not obliged at all to do this kind of work unless I'm very happy to do it myself, you know? Matt Stauffer: Yeah, for sure. Freek Van der Herten: And this idea that you should be happy with this kind of work—that's also where that idea comes from, that we only do the latest Laravel version, that we do the latest PHP version. Because this is what we use on our own project, and these are the versions we like working with. Nobody on our team liked working with the older Laravel versions. I'm not saying the older Laravel versions are bad or something, but we take the most joy from working with the latest stuff. So it makes sense for us only to do support for the later stuff in our packages as well. Unless it's very easy to support older things, then we do that as well, but we're also not afraid to just abandon an old package if we just don't like it anymore. No? It's not like anyone is going to sue us. Matt Stauffer: Yeah it comes down to the question of what do you feel obligated to do? And I think there's often a perception, right or wrong, that once you put that code out there, you're obligated to maintain it. And interestingly I see both sides of the issue. On the one hand, I don't think that you could be forced to do anything. On the other hand, I could imagine somebody saying, "Well, I can't." Matt Stauffer: We have a lot of clients who can't upgrade to the latest Laravel or the latest PHP, because they're stuck on whatever Red Hat releases and they're several versions behind, and they're saying, "Man I'd really like to use that new Spatie package but I can't." But at the same time, what's the inverse? You have to do something? No, nobody can force you to do anything. I have bounced back and forth a lot of times. And I think where I've ended up is just saying, nobody can be forced to do anything. Matt Stauffer: Each person needs to be honest about what they're planning to do, and also the world needs to allow them to change what their plans are if they change what their plans are. And as long as your not manipulating or tricking people. Then you're an open source contributor, who's putting work out there in the world. People can consume it, and if they're not happy with it, they can take the responsibility to fix it up. If they're not willing to take that responsibility to fix it up then it's kind of like well, you're getting free stuff. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth, is an American saying. Matt Stauffer: So I'm very sad because I have to go home to take care of my kids, but I can't leave just on that note because as always I ask people in Tighten what questions they have for you. I can't ask all of them because of my timeline. But I am going to at least ask you a few of them. So especially the ones that are the most esoteric. Number one, how many post cards do you get per month? Freek Van der Herten: We should get more. It's about, between 15 or 35. Something like that. Matt Stauffer: Your packages are postcard-ware. Which means basically, what you ask people to do is, if they use the package, consider sending you a postcard from where ever they're from. Freek Van der Herten: Yeah. Matt Stauffer: I assume that most people don't feel the pressure to send you 5,000 postcards if they use your package, but you probably should at least get one postcard from each user. So listeners, if you've ever used a Spatie package somewhere, consider going and buying a postcard from your local and going sending it. They've got a thing on their website about it, I'll link it in the show notes. But it sounds like that number should be a little bit higher, so let's all go chip in there to thanks them. Freek Van der Herten: Thank, Matt. Matt Stauffer: The next random question, I don't even know how to pronounce this, so I'm just going to read the words in front of my face. Did Romelu Lukaku deserve the golden boot? Freek Van der Herten: Yeah. I think he does. Or even Hazard. Matt Stauffer: Okay. Freek Van der Herten: Those are two football players if you don't know. Matt Stauffer: I have no idea at all. There's a lot of people taking care about this but I don't, so. Freek Van der Herten: I'm not that big into football, but I did watch for the world cup. That's when I'm interested in the Belgium team. Looking at Belgium matches this time, was really amazed what our player Eden Hazard could do. Did some amazing stuff. So that's your answer. Matt Stauffer: Several people asked this, but I feel like you're not going to have this list ready. So if you don't have this list ready, just say, "I don't have this list ready." Some people asked, what packages have you made that have been adopted into the Laravel core. Freek Van der Herten: I think none. Matt Stauffer: Oh really. Okay well that's a no list. Freek Van der Herten: Wait, there are none in the dependencies but there are that few were totally- Matt Stauffer: Absorbed, yeah. Freek Van der Herten: Inter locked with I think migrate fresh is one of ours. That Dale picked up on because we made it. And I think there is another one, where if you, in Tinker, use a class name that it can fetch the fully qualified class name. We packaged that up. Matt Stauffer: Yeah that was Caleb right? Freek Van der Herten: That was from Caleb. Matt Stauffer: Very cool. Alright, I didn't realize that got pulled into the core. Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, and that's in the core now, if you open begin session, and do one of the classes there, then it will try to get the fully qualified class name. Matt Stauffer: I like that, it's a joint Tighten Spatie effort. Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, cool. Matt Stauffer: Jose asks, which Artisan commands do you use the most? Freek Van der Herten: I think Tinker all day. All day I use Tinker. Matt Stauffer: Interesting. Freek Van der Herten: I have this package called Laravel Tail which can tail a log file. Matt Stauffer: That's the one that was pulled out of the old from the old Laravel right? Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, it was pulled out of Laravel, I don't know why. Because it was such a help. And I used it all day long. Matt Stauffer: I love it. Freek Van der Herten: Tailing stuff. Various make commands as well. So nothing too special there. Matt Stauffer: Alright, one last one. Marje asks, what was your most interesting challenge as a new developer? Freek Van der Herten: I think, getting to know the best practices in communities. It's so easy to adjust, to program a little thing, like a little PHP script, but how to do it well and how to structure it really well, that was really hard as a newcomer. To find good sources of information. And for PHP I know my way around. I know where I can find good stuff. I know where the people are. But if I want to get the feeling again, I know I can try to do some Elixir stuff or maybe even some JavaScript stuff and it's like I'm a newcomer all over again. Matt Stauffer: It's the difference between knowing how to do the thing and the best way to do the thing, right? Freek Van der Herten: Yeah, exactly. And it's comforting that in PHP, I have the feeling that I can be happy with the stuff that I write. I'm always learning of course. But it's difficult to have to in another language, because you're so familiar and it feels so warm doing PHP. But I have to force myself to do some other stuff as well. Matt Stauffer: Yeah, I hear that. Well, as always, I can tell, I can talk for hours on several of our subjects, but is there anything you wanted to cover that we haven't gotten to today? Freek Van der Herten: If I can make a shameless plug? Matt Stauffer: Go ahead. Freek Van der Herten: I launched my first software service project, a half year ago. It's called Oh Dear. It's like the best uptime tool out there. It can also detect mixed content, when your certificates will expire. Things like broken things, you will get notifications from that. It's something, I'm really proud of and you should check it out. It's ohdear.app. Matt Stauffer: Yep. And we will link all this in the show notes. I will make sure that is all available there. The pricing of Oh Dear, it's based on the number or sites right? Freek Van der Herten: It's based on the number of sites and nothing else. Matt Stauffer: Yeah, so your site can be massive. It can have 10's of thousands of pages and you're not going to pay extra for it. So, definitely check it out. OhDear.app we'll put this on the show notes, we're always down for the shameless plugs. You took your time to talk to us so, we got to show you some love. Freek Van der Herten: Alright, thanks man. Matt Stauffer: Alright, so if someone wants to follow you, where's the best place for them to go to do that? Freek Van der Herten: I think it's twitter, is a good way. So by having this @freekmurze it will be in the show notes as well I presume. Matt Stauffer: Yep. Freek Van der Herten: Or by murze.be where I talk about the package developments that my team and I are doing. And where I link amazing articles of others as well. So my blog and my twitter account, that are the best ways. Matt Stauffer: Love it. Thank you so much for everything you do for our community. Thank you for your time, I'm sorry I'm cutting us short, we can keep going but, look forward to seeing you soon and thank you so much for joining us today. Freek Van der Herten: My pleasure Matt, thanks. Matt Stauffer: Thank you. Bye bye.

This episode was recorded 26 May 2014 live and in person at Brent's office in sunny, lovely Ballard. You can download the m4a file or subscribe in iTunes. (Or subscribe to the podcast feed.) Brent has worked at UserLand Software and NewsGator and as an indie at his company Ranchero Software. These days he's one-third of Q Branch, where he writes Vesper. He is also the co-host of this podcast. This episode is sponsored by Tagcaster. Tagcaster is not just another podcast client — it solves the age-old problem of linking to specific parts of a podcast. You can make clips — short audio excerpts — and share them and link to them. After all these years, that problem is finally solved. This episode is also sponsored by Igloo. Igloo is an intranet you'll actually like, with shared calendars, microblogs, file-sharing, social networking, and more. It's free for up 10 users — give it a try for your company or your team today. This episode is also sponsored by Hover. Hover makes domain name management easy. And it's a snap to transfer domains from other registrars using their valet service. Get 10% off your first purchase with the promotional code MANILA. (Manila was the name of the blogging system worked on at UserLand.) Take a look. Things we mention, more or less in order of appearance: NetNewsWire MarsEdit Glassboard Vesper Manila The University of Chicago DuPont Punched cards University of Delaware Newark, Delaware Fortran 1980 Apple II Plus PLATO Brent's Mom 6502 Assembly 80 column card ALF II Music Construction Set Beatles Rolling Stones Pil Ochs Judy Collins Boby Dylan West Side Story Hair Broadway Soundtrack Delicious Library Epson MX-80 Columbia House Records Cindy Lauper Born in the USA The Clash London Calling Pascal Evergreen State College 1992 1989 Seattle Central Community College City Collegian QuarkXpress LaserWriter Mac IIcx Radius monitor Silo Goodwill Symantec C Grenoble, France Microsoft Word Microsoft Excel Seattle Boeing Photovoltaics University of Washington Institut de Biologie Structurale CEA CNRS Alps (the mountains) Gopher Pine International Herald Tribune Kronenbourg Killian's Red Isère River Chinook's Eskimo dial-up account Zterm Lynx AltaVista Seanet MacTCP MacPPP AppleTalk Yahoo Info-Mac Archive Kagi Maelstrom Performa 604 After Dark Bungie Andrew Welch Usenet fuckingblocksyntax.com Dave Winer UserLand Frontier Aretha release UserLand Software AppleScript HyperCard WebSTAR MacPerl MySQL Spotlight Filemaker Pro Indianapolis Star News Woodside, CA Jake Savin San Francisco Robert Scoble Millbrae Palo Alto Windows Visual Studio CodeWarrior PowerPlant MacApp Toolbox Xcode Project Builder Carbon QuickDraw Open Transport Manila EditThisPage.com Daily Kos joel.editthispage.com Aaron Hillegass's Book on Cocoa Radio UserLand Python MacNewsWire RSS WebKit Safari MSIE for Mac Camino NetNewsWire 1.0 screen shot RealBasic BBEdit Lite TextWrangler Carmen's Headline Viewer Syndirella AmphetaDesk My.Netscape.Com Safari/RSS Ecto Movable Type Mac OS X Server NewsGator Palm Treo FeedDemon Nick Bradbury Greg Reinacker Outlook TapLynx Push IO Sepia Labs Cultured Code and Things Black Pixel Red Sweater Oracle Justin Wiliams NetNewsWire Lite 4.0 for Macintosh Vesper Sync Diary WWDC Parc 55

Chase and Jenna chat with Kevin Miller, founder & CEO of LiveCode, about Hypercard, Kickstarter success, and more.

This episode was recorded 16 May 2013 live and in person at Omni's lovely offices overlooking Lake Union in Seattle. You can download the m4a file or subscribe in iTunes. (Or subscribe to the podcast feed.) Paul Goracke is a senior staff engineer at Black Pixel, where he works on things he can't talk about but that you've used. He's also a former instructor at the University of Washington's Cocoa development program, and has at times been the lead organizer of the Seattle Xcoders. This episode is sponsored by Squarespace. Get 10% off by going to http://squarespace.com/therecord. Better still: go work for Squarespace! They're hiring 30 engineers and designers by March 15, and, “When you interview at Squarespace, we'll invite you and your spouse or partner to be New Yorkers for a weekend—on us.” The great designers at Squarespace have designed an entire weekend for you, from dining at Alder to going to the Smalls Jazz Club and visiting The New Museum. Seriously cool deal at beapartofit.squarespace.com. This episode is also sponsored by Microsoft Azure Mobile Services. Mobile Services is a great way to provide backend services — syncing and other things — for your iPhone, iPad, and Mac apps. Write code — Javascript code — in your favorite text editor on your Mac. (Mobile Services runs Node.js.) Deploy via git. Write unit tests using mocha (or your tool of choice). Supports authenticating via Twitter, Facebook, and Google — and you can roll your own system. It's cool. Things we mention, in order of appearance (more or less): CodeWarrior SIOUX-WASTE TextEdit 32K limit WASTE Usenet Metrowerks Ron John Daub Compact Discs Adobe MacTech on SIOUX WorldScript Unicode UTF-8 PowerPC Apprentice CDs DNA sequencers California Stanford Sun workstation PC Minnesota Egghead Software NFR copies Think C Think C Reference Learn C on the Macintosh Inside Mac Scott Knaster book Ultimate Mac Programming Guide Apple events Inside OLE 4th Dimension Guy Kawasaki Apple II Atari Commodore VisiCalc BASIC Nibble magazine Elephant Disks Beagle Bros. Byte TRS-80 Creative Computing 6502 C pointers fseek Apple IIe Apple IIgs Lemonade Stand Token rings 1994 The Computer Store Powerbook 180 Filemaker SQL HyperCard Myst Broderbund Sierra On-Line King's Quest PowerPlant Flash JavaScript Java Applet Remote Method Invocation Java Native Interface Windows NT Classpaths Bioinformatics Perl use strict Berkeley DB MySQL RedHat Linux Emacs Quartz Composer Grok Forth Seattle Xcoders 2004 2005 NSCoder Night CocoaHeads Pirate flag Advanced Mac OS X Programming book Gus Mueller Rogue Sheep MacBU OmniGroup dBug Lucas Newman Mike Lee Wil Shipley Golden Braeburn Joe Heck Hal Mueller WWDC Luau SFMacIndie Party Jillian's Jacqui Cheng Clint Ecker Guy English C4 NeXT BeOS UW Salvage Subversion Versions John Flansburgh Northside

This episode was recorded 17 May 2013 live and in person at Omni's lovely offices overlooking Lake Union in Seattle. You can download the m4a file or subscribe in iTunes. (Or subscribe to the podcast feed.) Gus Mueller, Flying Meat founder, created VoodooPad (now at Plausible Labs) and Acorn, the image editor for humans. Gus is also responsible for open source software such as FMDB and JSTalk. This episode is sponsored by Squarespace. Get 10% off by going to http://squarespace.com/therecord. Better still: go work for Squarespace! They're hiring 30 engineers and designers by March 15, and, “When you interview at Squarespace, we'll invite you and your spouse or partner to be New Yorkers for a weekend—on us.” The great designers at Squarespace have designed an entire weekend for you, from dining at Alder to going to the Smalls Jazz Club and visiting The New Museum. Seriously cool deal at beapartofit.squarespace.com. This episode is also sponsored by Microsoft Azure Mobile Services. Mobile Services is a great way to provide backend services — syncing and other things — for your iPhone, iPad, and Mac apps. Write code — Javascript code — in your favorite text editor on your Mac. (Mobile Services runs Node.js.) Deploy via git. Write unit tests using mocha (or your tool of choice). Supports authenticating via Twitter, Facebook, and Google — and you can roll your own system. It's cool. Things we mention, in order of appearance (more or less): Rock climbing Luke Adamson Missouri 2001 2002 Cocoa Apple IIc 1993 Mac Color Classic BASIC ELIZA Artificial Intelligence Assembler Missile Command Java Eric Albert Perl Animated GIFs CGIs Server push images REALBasic PC Apple IIe DOS Colossal Caves Plover Nibble Civilization UNIX AIX A/UX St. Louis Columbia Math is hard Single sign-on Servlets OS X WWDC Rhapsody 1995 MacPERL NiftyTelnet BBEdit FlySketch Coffee Picasso's bull sketches VoodooPad 22" Cinema Display OS X Innovator's Award O'Reilly Peter Lewis Rich Siegel Mark Aldritt Ambrosia Panic Transmit Audion O'Reilly Mac OS Conference Audio Hijack Paul Kafasis SubEthaEdit Mac Pro Ireland XML PDF Victoria's Secret Caterpillar Adobe InDesign OS X Server Xserve Macintosh G5 MacUpdate VersionTracker QuickDraw Kerberos HyperCard Objective-C messaging system Aaron Hillegass's book Java-Cocoa bridge JDBC Oracle databases 2005 Seattle Microsoft Parents Just Don't Understand Vancouver, BC B.B. King Seattle Xcoders Joe Heck University of Missouri Evening at Adler Wil Shipley Daniel Jalkut Eric Peyton Quicksilver Rosyna Chicago Drunkenbatman Adler Planetarium C4 Wolf Colin Barrett Delicious Generation Disco.app My Dream App Chimera / Camino Santa Clara World Wrapps Buzz Andersen Quartz Core Image Filters Bezier curves Wacom Unit tests Automated builds ZeroLink Metrowerks CodeWarrior NeXT BeOS Macintosh Performa Display Postscript SGIs Sun boxes Mac OS 8 MachTen Netscape Internet Explorer for Mac OS Outlook Express OmniGroup Shakespeare's pizza Pagliacci Neapolitan pizza Everett FIOS Fender Stratocaster GarageBand AudioBus Adobe Photoshop Adobe Photoshop Elements JSTalk AppleScript SQLite WebKit Napkin

This episode was recorded 16 May 2013 live and in person at Omni's offices overlooking Lake Union in Seattle. You can download the m4a file or subscribe in iTunes. (Or subscribe to the podcast feed.) Greg Robbins is Graphing Calculator co-author (a story you should already know about, that we don't go over again) and has done such diverse things as bringing translucency to the Mac OS Drag Manager (way back in the '90s), and writing an open source Objective-C library for Google Data APIs. You can follow Greg on Twitter. This episode is sponsored by Squarespace. Easily create beautiful websites via drag-and-drop. Get help any time from their 24/7 technical support. Create responsive websites — ready for phones and tablets — without any extra effort: Squarespace's designers have already handled it for you. Get 10% off by going to http://squarespace.com/therecord. And, if you want to get under the hood, check out their APIs at developers.squarespace.com. This episode is also sponsored by Microsoft Azure Mobile Services. Mobile Services is a great way to provide backend services — syncing and other things — for your iPhone, iPad, and Mac apps. If you've been to the website already, you've seen the tutorials where you input code into a browser window. And that's an easy way to get started. But don't be fooled: Mobile Services is deep. You can write in your favorite text editor and deploy via Git. Regular-old Git, not Git#++. Git. Things we mention, in order of appearance (pretty much): Real Networks Graphing Calculator Google Ira Glass on Graphing Calculator Drag Manager Translucency Mac OS 7.5.3 Drag Manager Alpha channels Quartz CopyBits Black and white displays 68K computers PowerPC Blitting Desktop Pictures 1995 NeXT Omni Assembly language DTS Newton Teletypes Berkeley's Lawrence Hall of Science Apple II 1979 Mainframe Concentration Busboy Nolo Press ComputerLand Beagle Bros. Integer BASIC 80-column cards Apple II Plus Apple II Technical Manual Homebrew computers RF Interference Apple II GS Non-Apple Machines 6502 Assembly Missile Command 1992 NASA Neural networks Robert Hecht-Nielsen 1980s Voice recognition Earth Observing System Goddard Space Flight Center comp.sys.mac Pascal C Macintosh Progammers Workshop (MPW) Lightspeed C / THINK C Lightspeed Pascal CodeWarrior PowerPC transition Toolbox Inside Mac Macintosh Programmers Toolbox Assistant QuickView Hypercard How to Write Macintosh software by Scott Knaster 1990s eMate Apple QuickTake Secret About Box Easter eggs Breakout in 7.5 Herman the Iguana Pointers Ron Avitzur Airplay Front Row Windows Vista Microsoft Office Adobe Photoshop Seattle RealPlayer 1998 Rob Glaser Macworld Conference Marching extensions Casady & Greene's Conflict Catcher Carbon Cocoa 2002 WinAmp Appearance Manager Kaleidoscope Copland InternetWorld 1997 OpenDoc Dave Winer Quickdraw GX Apple Open Collaborative Environment (AOCE) iCloud LLVM Instruments Microsoft Visual Studio ARC C# Xcode Eclipse QuickTime Project Builder Google Desktop Spotlight Google Maps for iOS 2005 Macintosh Business Unit (MacBU) RSS Google Reader Google Keep Self-driving cars Google Glass Big data Google Data APIs for Objective-C XML OAuth

Time for episode 29 of the podcast where we're discussing the 1993 Cyan adventure/puzzle game, Myst. As usual though, the news: Disney and EA have entered an exclusive multi-year deal to develop a series of new Star Wars games. Maxis has announced The Sims 4 and opened up registration for a mailing list. Bethesda has announced a new Wolfenstein game taking place in an alternate version of the 60's where the Nazis won the war. We then get to the main topic, Myst. Gameplay, story and get a little deeper with tech focus and dev story. Buy Myst on GoG: http://www.gog.com/gamecard/myst_masterpiece_edition Buy Myst on Steam: http://store.steampowered.com/app/63660/ Next time, I'll be revisiting Peter Molyneux with 1997's Dungeon Keeper.