Podcasts about Zork

Matt Forbeck is all that and so much more. He grew up in Wisconsin as what he describes as a wimpy kid, too short and not overly healthy. He took to gaming at a pretty early age and has grown to be a game creator, author and award-winning storyteller.   Matt has been designing games now for over 35 years. He tells us how he believes that many of the most successful games today have stories to tell, and he loves to create some of the most successful ones. What I find most intriguing about Matt is that he clearly is absolutely totally happy in his work. For most of Matt's career he has worked for himself and continues today to be an independent freelancer.   Matt and his wife have five children, including a set of quadruplets. The quadruplets are 23 and Matt's oldest son is 28 and is following in his father's footsteps.   During our conversation we touch on interesting topics such as trust and work ethics. I know you will find this episode stimulating and worth listening to more than once.     About the Guest:   Matt Forbeck is an award-winning and New York Times-bestselling author and game designer of over thirty-five novels and countless other books and games. His projects have won a Peabody Award, a Scribe Award, and numerous ENnies and Origins Awards. He is also the president of the Diana Jones Award Foundation, which celebrates excellence in gaming.    Matt has made a living full-time on games and fiction since 1989, when he graduated from the Residential College at the University of Michigan with a degree in Creative Writing. With the exception of a four-year stint as the president of Pinnacle Entertainment Group and a year and a half as the director of the adventure games division of Human Head Studios, he has spent his career as an independent freelancer.   Matt has designed collectible card games, roleplaying games, miniatures games, board games, interactive fiction, interactive audiobooks, games for museum installations, and logic systems for toys. He has directed voiceover work and written short fiction, comic books, novels, screenplays, and video game scripts and stories. His work has been translated into at least 15 languages.   His latest work includes the Marvel Multiverse Role-Playing Game Core Rulebook, the Spider-Verse Expansion, Monster Academy (novels and board game), the Shotguns & Sorcery 5E Sourcebook based on his novels, and the Minecraft: Roll for Adventure game books. He is the father of five, including a set of quadruplets. He lives in Beloit, Wisconsin, with his wife and a rotating cast of college-age children. For more about him and his work, visit Forbeck.com.   Ways to connect with Matt:   Twitter: https://twitter.com/mforbeck Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/forbeck Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/forbeck.com Threads: https://www.threads.net/@mforbeck Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mforbeck/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/forbeck/ Website: https://www.forbeck.com/     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset today. We get to play games. Well, not really, but we'll try. Our guest is Matt Forbeck, who is an award winning author. He is a game designer and all sorts of other kinds of things that I'm sure he's going to tell us about, and we actually just before we started the the episode, we were talking about how one might explore making more games accessible for blind and persons with other disabilities. It's, it's a challenge, and there, there are a lot of tricks. But anyway, Matt, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Matt Forbeck ** 02:02 Well, thank you, Michael for inviting me and having me on. I appreciate it.   Speaker 1 ** 02:06 I think we're going to have a lot of fun, and I think it'll work out really well. I'm I am sure of that. So why don't we start just out of curiosity, why don't you tell us kind of about the early Matt, growing up?   Matt Forbeck ** 02:18 Uh, well, I grew up. I was born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I grew up in a little town called Beloit, Wisconsin, which actually live in now, despite having moved away for 13 years at one point, and I had terrible asthma, I was a sick and short kid, and with the advent of medication, I finally started to be healthy when I was around nine, and Part of that, I started getting into playing games, right? Because when you're sick, you do a lot of sitting around rather than running around. So I did a lot of reading and playing games and things like that. I happen to grow up in the part of the world where Dungeons and Dragons was invented, which is in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, about 30 miles from where I live. And because of that I was I started going to conventions and playing games and such, when I was about 12 or 13 years old. I started doing it when I was a little bit older. I started doing it professionally, and started doing it when I was in college. And amazingly enough, even to my own astonishment, I've made a career out of it.   Speaker 1 ** 03:17 Where did you go to college? I went to the University   Matt Forbeck ** 03:21 of Michigan over in Ann Arbor. I had a great time there. There's a wonderful little college, Beloit College, in my hometown here, and most of my family has gone to UW Milwaukee over the years. My parents met at Marquette in Milwaukee, but I wanted to get the heck out of the area, so I went to Michigan, and then found myself coming back as soon as we started having   Speaker 1 ** 03:42 kids well, and of course, I would presume that when you were at the University of Michigan, you rooted for them and against Ohio State. That was   Matt Forbeck ** 03:50 kind of, you know, if you did it the other way around, they back out of town. So, yeah, I was always kind of astonished, though, because having grown up in Wisconsin, where every sports team was a losing team when I was growing up, including the Packers, for decades. You know, we were just happy to be playing. They were more excuse to have beers than they were to cheer on teams. And I went to Michigan where they were, they were angry if the team wasn't up by two touchdowns. You know, at any point, I'm like, You guys are silly. This is we're here for fun.   Speaker 1 ** 04:17 But it is amazing how seriously some people take sports. I remember being in New Zealand helping the Royal New Zealand Foundation for the Blind. Well now 22 years ago, it's 2003 and the America's Cup had just finished before we got there, and in America beat New Zealand, and the people in New Zealand were just irate. They were complaining that the government didn't put enough money into the design of the boat and helping with the with the yacht and all that. It was just amazing how seriously people take it, yeah,   Matt Forbeck ** 04:58 once, I mean, it becomes a part of your. Identity in a lot of ways, right for many people, and I've never had to worry about that too much. I've got other things on my mind, but there you go.   Speaker 1 ** 05:08 Well, I do like it when the Dodgers win, and my wife did her graduate work at USC, and so I like it when the Trojans win, but it's not the end of the world, and you do need to keep it in perspective. I I do wish more people would I know once I delivered a speech in brether County, Kentucky, and I was told that when I started the speech had to end no later than preferably exactly at 6:30pm not a minute later, because it was the night of the NCAA Basketball Championship, and the Kentucky Wildcats were in the championship, and at 630 everyone was going to get up and leave and go home to watch the game. So I ended at 630 and literally, by 631 I timed it. The gym was empty and it was full to start with.   Matt Forbeck ** 06:02 People were probably, you know, counting down on their watches, just to make sure, right?   Speaker 1 ** 06:06 Oh, I'm sure they were. What do you do? It's, it is kind of fun. Well, so why did you decide to get started in games? What? What? What attracted to you, to it as a young person, much less later on?   Matt Forbeck ** 06:21 Well, I was, yeah, I was an awkward kid, kind of nerdy and, you know, glasses and asthma and all that kind of stuff. And games were the kind of thing where, if you didn't know how to interact with people, you could sit down at a table across them and you could practice. You can say, okay, we're all here. We've got this kind of a magic circle around us where we've agreed to take this one silly activity seriously for a short period of time, right? And it may be that you're having fun during that activity, but you know, there's, there's no reason that rolling dice or moving things around on a table should be taken seriously. It's all just for fun, right? But for that moment, you actually just like Las Vegas Exactly, right? When there's money on the line, it's different, but if you're just doing it for grins. You know, it was a good way for me to learn how to interact with people of all sorts and of different ages. And I really enjoyed playing the games, and I really wanted to be a writer, too. And a lot of these things interacted with story at a very basic level. So breaking in as a writer is tough, but it turned out breaking as a game designer, wasn't nearly his stuff, so I started out over there instead, because it was a very young field at the time, right? D and D is now 50 years old, so I've been doing this 35 years, which means I started around professionally and even doing it before that, I started in the period when the game and that industry were only like 10 or 15 years old, so yeah, weren't quite as much competition in those   Speaker 1 ** 07:43 days. I remember some of the early games that I did play, that I could play, were DOS based games, adventure. You're familiar with adventure? Yeah, oh, yeah. Then later, Zork and all that. And I still think those are fun games. And I the reason I like a lot of those kinds of games is they really make you think, which I think most games do, even though the video even the video games and so on, they they help your or can help your reactions, but they're designed by people who do try to make you think,   Matt Forbeck ** 08:15 yeah. I mean, we basically are designing puzzles for people to solve, even if they're story puzzles or graphic puzzles or sound puzzles or whatever, you know, even spatial puzzles. There the idea is to give somebody something fun that is intriguing to play with, then you end up coming with story and after that, because after a while, even the most most exciting mechanics get dull, right? I mean, you start out shooting spaceships, but you can only shoot spaceships for so long, or you start out playing Tetris, and you only put shapes together for so long before it doesn't mean anything that then you start adding in story to give people a reason to keep playing right and a reason to keep going through these things. And I've written a lot of video games over the years, basically with that kind of a philosophy, is give people nuggets of story, give them a plot to work their way through, and reward them for getting through different stages, and they will pretty much follow you through anything. It's amazing.   Michael Hingson ** 09:09 Is that true Dungeons and Dragons too?   Matt Forbeck ** 09:13 It is. All of the stories are less structured there. If you're doing a video game, you know you the team has a lot of control over you. Give the player a limited amount of control to do things, but if you're playing around a table with people, it's more of a cooperative kind of experience, where we're all kind of coming up with a story, the narrator or the Game Master, the Dungeon Master, sets the stage for everything, but then the players have a lot of leeway doing that, and they will always screw things up for you, too. No matter what you think is going to happen, the players will do something different, because they're individuals, and they're all amazing people. That's actually to me, one of the fun things about doing tabletop games is that, you know, the computer can only react in a limited number of ways, whereas a human narrator and actually change things quite drastically and roll. With whatever people come up with, and that makes it tremendous fun.   Speaker 1 ** 10:04 Do you think AI is going to enter into all that and maybe improve some of the   Matt Forbeck ** 10:09 old stuff? It's going to add your end to it, whether it's an ad, it's going to approve it as a large question. Yeah. So I've been ranting about AI quite a bit lately with my friends and family. But, you know, I think the problem with AI, it can be very helpful a lot of ways, but I think it's being oversold. And I think it's especially when it's being oversold for thing, for ways for people to replace writers and creative thinking, Yeah, you know, you're taking the fun out of everything. I mean, the one thing I like to say is if, if you can't be bothered to write this thing that you want to communicate to me, I'm not sure why I should be bothered to read this thing well.   Speaker 1 ** 10:48 And I think that AI will will evolve in whatever way it does. But the fact of the matter is, So do people. And I think that, in fact, people are always going to be necessary to make the process really work? AI can only do and computers can only do so much. I mean, even Ray Kurzweil talks about the singularity when people and computer brains are married, but that still means that you're going to have the human element. So it's not all going to be the computer. And I'm not ready to totally buy into to what Ray says. And I used to work for Ray, so I mean, I know Ray Well, but, but the but the bottom line is, I think that, in fact, people are always going to be able to be kind of the, the mainstay of it, as long as we allow that, if we, if we give AI too much power, then over time, it'll take more power, and that's a problem, but that's up to us to deal with?   Matt Forbeck ** 11:41 No, I totally agree with that. I just think right now, there's a very large faction of people who it's in their economic interest to oversell these things. You know, people are making chips. They're building server farms. A lot of them are being transferred from people are doing blockchain just a few years ago, and they see it as the hot new thing. The difference is that AI actually has a lot of good uses. There's some amazing things will come out of llms and such. But I again, people are over the people are selling this to us. Are often over promising things, right?   Speaker 1 ** 12:11 Yeah, well, they're not only over promising but they're they're really misdirecting people. But the other side of it is that, that, in fact, AI as a concept and as a technology is here, and we have control over how we use it. I've said a couple times on this this podcast, and I've said to others, I remember when I first started hearing about AI, I heard about the the fact that teachers were bemoaning the pack, that kids were writing their papers just using AI and turning them in, and it wasn't always easy to tell whether it was something that was written by AI or was written by the student. And I come from a little bit different view than I think a lot of people do. And my view basically is, let the kids write it if with AI, if that's what they're going to do, but then what the teacher needs to do is to take one period, for example, and give every student in that class the opportunity to come up and defend whatever paper they have. And the real question is, can they defend the paper? Which means, have they really learned the subject, or are they just relying on AI,   Matt Forbeck ** 13:18 yeah, I agree with that. I think the trouble is, a lot of people, children, you know, who are developing their abilities and their morals about this stuff, they use it as just a way to complete the assignment, right? And many of them don't even read what they turn in, right, right? Just know that they've got something here that will so again, if you can't be bothered to read the thing that you manufactured, you're not learning anything about it,   Speaker 1 ** 13:39 which is why, if you are forced to defend it, it's going to become pretty obvious pretty fast, whether you really know it or not. Now, I've used AI on a number of occasions in various ways, but I use it to maybe give me ideas or prepare something that I then modify and shape. And I may even interact with AI a couple of times, but I'm definitely involved with the process all the way down the line, because it still has to be something that I'm responsible for.   Matt Forbeck ** 14:09 I agree. I mean, the whole point of doing these things is for people to connect with each other, right? I want to learn about the ideas you have in your head. I want to see how they jive with ones in my head. But if I'm just getting something that's being spit out by a machine and not you, and not being curated by you at any point, that doesn't seem very useful, right? So if you're the more involved people are in it, the more useful it is.   Speaker 1 ** 14:31 Well, I agree, and you know, I think again, it's a tool, and we have to decide how the tool is going to be used, which is always the way it ought to be. Right?   Matt Forbeck ** 14:42 Exactly, although sometimes it's large corporations deciding,   Speaker 1 ** 14:45 yeah, well, there's that too. Well, individuals,   Matt Forbeck ** 14:49 we get to make our own choices. Though you're right,   Speaker 1 ** 14:51 yes, and should Well, so, so when did you start bringing writing into what you. Did, and make that a really significant part of what you did?   Matt Forbeck ** 15:03 Well, pretty early on, I mean, I started doing one of the first things I did was a gaming zine, which was basically just a print magazine that was like, you know, 32 pages, black and white, about the different tabletop games. So we were writing those in the days, design and writing are very closely linked when it comes to tabletop games and even in video games. The trick of course is that designing a game and writing the rules are actually two separate sets of skills. So one of the first professional gig I ever had during writing was in games was some friends of mine had designed a game for a company called Mayfair games, which went on to do sellers of contain, which is a big, uh, entry level game, and but they needed somebody to write the rules, so they called me over, showed me how to play the game. I took notes and I I wrote it down in an easy to understand, clear way that people had just picked up the box. Could then pick it up and teach themselves how to play, right? So that was early on how I did it. But the neat thing about that is it also taught me to think about game design. I'm like, when I work on games, I think about, who is this game going to be for, and how are we going to teach it to them? Because if they can't learn the game, there's no point of the game at all, right?   Speaker 1 ** 16:18 And and so I'm right? I'm a firm believer that a lot of technical writers don't do a very good job of technical writing, and they write way over people's heads. I remember the first time I had to write, well, actually, I mentioned I worked for Kurzweil. I was involved with a project where Ray Kurzweil had developed his original omniprent optical character recognition system. And I and the National Federation of the Blind created with him a project to put machines around the country so that blind people could use them and give back to Ray by the time we were all done, recommendations as to what needed to go in the final first production model of the machine. So I had to write a training manual to teach people how to use it. And I wrote this manual, and I was always of the opinion that it had to be pretty readable and usable by people who didn't have a lot of technical knowledge. So I wrote the manual, gave it to somebody to read, and said, Follow the directions and and work with the machine and all that. And they did, and I was in another room, and they were playing with it for a couple of hours, and they came in and they said, I'm having a problem. I can't figure out how to turn off the machine. And it turns out that I had forgotten to put in the instruction to turn off the machine. And it wasn't totally trivial. There were steps you had to go through. It was a Data General Nova two computer, and you had to turn it off the right way and the whole system off the appropriate way, or you could, could mess everything up. So there was a process to doing it. So I wrote it in, and it was fine. But, you know, I've always been a believer that the textbooks are way too boring. Having a master's degree in physics, I am of the opinion that physics textbook writers, who are usually pretty famous and knowledgeable scientists, ought to include with all the text and the technical stuff they want to put in, they should put in stories about what they did in you bring people in, draw them into the whole thing, rather than just spewing out a bunch of technical facts.   Matt Forbeck ** 18:23 No, I agree. My my first calculus professor was a guy who actually explained how Newton and Leipzig actually came up with calculus, and then he would, you know, draw everything on the board and turn around say, and isn't that amazing? And you were, like, just absolutely enamored with the idea of how they had done these things, right? Yeah. And what you're doing there, when you, when you, when you give the instructions to somebody and say, try this out. That's a very big part of gaming, actually, because what we do this thing called play testing, where we take something before it's ready to be shown to the public, and we give it to other people and say, try this out. See how it works. Let me know when you're starting out of your first playing you play with like your family and friends and people will be brutal with you and give you hints about how you can improve things. But then, even when you get to the rules you're you send those out cold to people, or, you know, if you're a big company, you watch them through a two way mirror or one way mirror, and say, Hey, let's see how they react to everything. And then you take notes, and you try to make it better every time you go through. And when I'm teaching people to play games at conventions, for instance, I will often say to them, please ask questions if you don't understand anything, that doesn't mean you're dumb. Means I didn't explain it well enough, right? And my job as a person writing these rules is to explain it as well as I humanly can so it can't be misconstrued or misinterpreted. Now that doesn't mean you can correct everything. Somebody's always got like, Oh, I missed that sentence, you know, whatever. But you do that over and over so you can try to make it as clear and concise as possible, yeah.   Speaker 1 ** 19:52 Well, you have somewhat of a built in group of people to help if you let your kids get involved. Involved. So how old are your kids?   Matt Forbeck ** 20:03 My eldest is 26 he'll be 27 in January. Marty is a game designer, actually works with me on the marble tabletop role playing game, and we have a new book coming out, game book for Minecraft, called Minecraft role for adventure, that's coming out on July 7, I think, and the rest of the kids are 23 we have 423 year olds instead of quadruplets, one of whom is actually going into game design as well, and the other says two are still in college, and one has moved off to the work in the woods. He's a very woodsy boy. Likes to do environmental education with people.   Speaker 1 ** 20:39 Wow. Well, see, but you, but you still have a good group of potential game designers or game critics anyway.   Matt Forbeck ** 20:47 Oh, we all play games together. We have a great time. We do weekly game nights here. Sometimes they're movie nights, sometimes they're just pizza nights, but we shoot for game and pizza   Speaker 1 ** 20:56 if we get lucky and your wife goes along with all this too.   Matt Forbeck ** 21:00 She does. She doesn't go to the game conventions and stuff as much, and she's not as hardcore of a gamer, but she likes hanging out with the kids and doing everything with us. We have a great time.   Speaker 1 ** 21:10 That's that's pretty cool. Well, you, you've got, you've got to build an audience of some sorts, and that's neat that a couple of them are involved in it as well. So they really like what dad does, yeah,   Matt Forbeck ** 21:23 yeah. We, I started taking them each to conventions, which are, you know, large gatherings gamers in real life. The biggest one is Gen Con, which happens in Indianapolis in August. And last year, I think, we had 72,000 people show up. And I started taking the kids when they were 10 years old, and my wife would come up with them then. And, you know, 10 years old is a lot. 72,000 people is a lot for a 10 year old. So she can mention one day and then to a park the next day, you know, decompress a lot, and then come back on Saturday and then leave on Sunday or whatever, so that we didn't have them too over stimulated. But they really grown to love it. I mean, it's part of our annual family traditions in the summer, is to go do these conventions and play lots of games with each other and meet new people too well.   Speaker 1 ** 22:08 And I like the way you put it. The games are really puzzles, which they are, and it's and it's fun. If people would approach it that way, no matter what the game is, they're, they're aspects of puzzles involved in most everything that has to do with the game, and that's what makes it so fun.   Matt Forbeck ** 22:25 Exactly, no. The interesting thing is, when you're playing with other people, the other people are changing the puzzles from their end that you have to solve on your end. And sometimes the puzzle is, how do I beat this person, or how do I defeat their strategy, or how do I make an alliance with somebody else so we can win? And it's really always very intriguing. There's so many different types of games. There's nowadays, there's like something like 50 to 100 new board games that come out and tabletop games every month, right? It's just like a fire hose. It's almost like, when I was starting out as a novelist, I would go into Barnes and Noble or borders and go, Oh my gosh, look at all these books. And now I do the same thing about games. It's just, it's incredible. Nobody, no one person, could keep up with all of them.   Speaker 1 ** 23:06 Yeah, yeah, yeah, way too much. I would love to explore playing more video games, but I don't. I don't own a lot of the technology, although I'm sure that there are any number of them that can be played on a computer, but we'll have to really explore and see if we can find some. I know there are some that are accessible for like blind people with screen readers. I know that some people have written a few, which is kind of cool. Yeah.   Matt Forbeck ** 23:36 And Xbox has got a new controller out that's meant to be accessible to large amount of people. I'm not sure, all the different aspects of it, but that's done pretty well, too   Speaker 1 ** 23:44 well. And again, it comes down to making it a priority to put all of that stuff in. It's not like it's magic to do. It's just that people don't know how to do it. But I also think something else, which is, if you really make the products more usable, let's say by blind people with screen readers. You may be especially if it's well promoted, surprised. I'm not you necessarily, but people might well be surprised as to how many others might take advantage of it so that they don't necessarily have to look at the screen, or that you're forced to listen as well as look in order to figure out what's going on or take actions.   Matt Forbeck ** 24:29 No, definitely true. It's, you know, people audio books are a massive thing nowadays. Games tend to fall further behind that way, but it's become this incredible thing that obviously, blind people get a great use out of but my wife is addicted to audio books now. She actually does more of those than she does reading. I mean, I technically think they're both reading. It's just one's done with yours and one's done with your eyes.   Speaker 1 ** 24:51 Yeah, there's but there's some stuff, whether you're using your eyes or your fingers and reading braille, there's something about reading a book that way that's. Even so a little bit different than listening to it. Yeah, and there's you're drawn in in some ways, in terms of actually reading that you're not necessarily as drawn into when you're when you're listening to it, but still, really good audio book readers can help draw you in, which is important, too,   Matt Forbeck ** 25:19 very much. So yeah, I think the main difference for reading, whether it's, you know, again, through Braille or through traditional print, is that you can stop. You can do it at your own pace. You can go back and look at things very easily, or read or check things, read things very easily. That you know, if you're reading, if you're doing an audio book, it just goes on and it's straight on, boom, boom, boom, pace. You can say, Wait, I'm going to put this down here. What was that thing? I remember back there? It was like three pages back, but it's really important, let me go check that right.   Speaker 1 ** 25:50 There are some technologies that allow blind people and low vision people and others, like people with dyslexia to use an audio book and actually be able to navigate two different sections of it. But it's not something that is generally available to the whole world, at least to the level that it is for blind people. But I can, I can use readers that are made to be able to accept the different formats and go back and look at pages, go back and look at headings, and even create bookmarks to bookmark things like you would normally by using a pen or a pencil or something like that. So there are ways to do some of that. So again, the technology is making strides.   Matt Forbeck ** 26:37 That's fantastic. Actually, it's wonderful. Just, yeah, it's great. I actually, you know, I lost half the vision of my right eye during back through an autoimmune disease about 13 years ago, and I've always had poor vision. So I'm a big fan of any kind of way to make things easier,   Speaker 1 ** 26:54 like that. Well, there, there are things that that are available. It's pretty amazing. A guy named George curser. Curser created a lot of it years ago, and it's called the DAISY format. And the whole idea behind it is that you can actually create a book. In addition to the audio tracks, there are XML files that literally give you the ability to move and navigate around the book, depending on how it's created, as final level as you choose.   Matt Forbeck ** 27:25 Oh, that's That's amazing. That's fantastic. I'm actually really glad to hear that.   Speaker 1 ** 27:28 So, yeah, it is kind of fun. So there's a lot of technology that's that's doing a lot of different sorts of things and and it helps. But um, so for you, in terms of dealing with, with the games, you've, you've written games, but you've, you've actually written some novels as well, right?   Matt Forbeck ** 27:50 Yeah, I've got like 30, it depends on how you count a novel, right? Okay, like some of my books are to pick a path books, right? Choose Your Own Adventure type stuff. So, but I've got 35 traditional novels written or more, I guess, now, I lost track a while ago, and probably another dozen of these interactive fiction books as well. So, and I like doing those. I've also written things like Marvel encyclopedias and Avengers encyclopedias and all sorts of different pop culture books. And, you know, I like playing in different worlds. I like writing science fiction, fantasy, even modern stuff. And most of it, for me comes down to telling stories, right? If you like to tell stories, you can tell stories through a game or book or audio play or a TV show or a comic, or I've done, you know, interactive museum, games and displays, things like that. The main thing is really a story. I mean, if you're comfortable sitting down at a bar and having a drink with somebody, doesn't have to be alcohol, just sitting down and telling stories with each other for fun. That's where the core of it all is really   Speaker 1 ** 28:58 right. Tell me about interactive fiction book.   Matt Forbeck ** 29:01 Sure, a lot of these are basically just done, like flow charts, kind of like the original Zork and adventure that you were talking about where you I actually, I was just last year, I brought rose Estes, who's the inventor of the endless quest books, which were a cross between Dungeons and Dragons, and choose your own adventure books. She would write the whole thing out page by page on a typewriter, and then, in order to shuffle the pages around so that people wouldn't just read straight through them, she'd throw them all up in the air and then just put them back in whatever order they happen to be. But essentially, you read a section of a book, you get to the end, and it gives you a choice. Would you like to go this way or that way? Would you like to go beat up this goblin? Or would you like to make friends with this warrior over here? If you want to do one of these things, go do page xx, right? Got it. So then you turn to that page and you go, boom, some, actually, some of the endless quest books I know were turned into audio books, right? And I actually, I. Um, oddly, have written a couple Dungeons and Dragons, interactive books, audio books that have only been released in French, right? Because there's a company called Looney l, u n, i, i that has this little handheld device that's for children, that has an A and a B button and a volume button. And you, you know, you get to the point that says, if you want to do this, push a, if you want to do that, push B, and the kids can go through these interactive stories and and, you know, there's ones for clue and Dungeons and Dragons and all sorts of other licenses, and some original stories too. But that way there's usually, like, you know, it depends on the story, but sometimes there's, like, 10 to 20 different endings. A lot of them are like, Oh no, you've been killed. Go back to where you started, right? And if you're lucky, the longer ones are, the more fun ones. And you get to, you know, save the kingdom and rescue the people and make good friends and all that good stuff,   Michael Hingson ** 30:59 yeah, and maybe fall in love with the princess or Prince.   Matt Forbeck ** 31:02 Yeah, exactly right. It all depends on the genre and what you're working in. But the idea is to give people some some choices over how they want the story to go. You're like, Well, do you want to investigate this dark, cold closet over here, or would you rather go running outside and playing around? And some of them can seem like very innocent choices, and other ones are like, well, uh, 10 ton weight just fell on. You go back to the last thing.   Speaker 1 ** 31:23 So that dark hole closet can be a good thing or a bad thing,   Matt Forbeck ** 31:28 exactly. And the trick is to make the deaths the bad endings, actually just as entertaining as anything else, right? And then people go, Well, I got beat, and I gotta go back and try that again. So yeah, if they just get the good ending all the way through, they often won't go back and look at all the terrible ones. So it's fun to trick them sometimes and have them go into terrible spots. And I like to put this one page in books too that sometimes says, How did you get here? You've been cheating there. This book, this page, is actually not led to from any other part of the book. You're just flipping   Speaker 1 ** 31:59 through. Cheater, cheater book, do what you   Matt Forbeck ** 32:04 want, but if you want to play it the right way, go back.   Speaker 1 ** 32:07 Kid, if you want to play the game. Yeah, exactly. On the other hand, some people are nosy.   Matt Forbeck ** 32:15 You know, I was always a kid who would poke around and wanted to see how things were, so I'm sure I would have found that myself but absolutely related, you know,   Speaker 1 ** 32:23 yeah, I had a general science teacher who brought in a test one day, and he gave it to everyone. And so he came over to me because it was, it was a printed test. He said, Well, I'm not going to give you the test, because the first thing it says is, read all the instructions, read, read the test through before you pass it, before you take it. And he said, most people won't do that. And he said, I know you would. And the last question on the test is answer, only question one.   Matt Forbeck ** 32:55 That's great. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 32:57 that was cute. And he said, I know that. I that there's no way you would, would would fall for that, because you would say, Okay, let's read the instructions and then read the whole test. That's what it said. And the instruction were, just read the whole test before you start. And people won't do that.   Matt Forbeck ** 33:13 No, they'll go through, take the whole thing. They get there and go, oh, did I get there? Was a, there's a game publisher. I think it was Steve Jackson Games, when they were looking for people, write for them, or design stuff for them, or submit stuff to them, would have something toward the end of the instructions that would say, put like a the letter seven, or put seven a on page one right, and that way they would know if you had read the instructions, if you hadn't bothered to Read the instructions, they wouldn't bother reading anything else.   Speaker 1 ** 33:42 Yeah, which is fair, because the a little harsh, well, but, but, you know, we often don't learn enough to pay attention to details. I know that when I was taking physics in college, that was stressed so often it isn't enough to get the numbers right. If you don't get the units right as well. Then you're, you're not really paying attention to the details. And paying attention to the details is so important.   Matt Forbeck ** 34:07 That's how they crash from those Mars rovers, wasn't it? They somebody messed up the units, but going back and forth between metric and, yeah, and Imperial and, well, you know, it cost somebody a lot of money at one point. Yeah. Yeah. What do you   Speaker 1 ** 34:21 this is kind of the way it goes. Well, tell me, yeah. Well, they do matter, no matter what people think, sometimes they do matter. Well, tell me about the Diana Jones award. First of all, of course, the logical question for many people is, who is Diana Jones? Yeah, Diana Jones doesn't exist, right? That's There you go. She's part game somewhere? No, no, it doesn't be in a game somewhere.   Matt Forbeck ** 34:43 Then now there's actually an author named Diana Wynne Jones, who's written some amazing fantasy stories, including Howell's Moving Castle, which has turned into a wonderful anime movie, but it has nothing to do with her or any other person. Because originally, the Diana Jones award came about. Because a friend of mine, James Wallace, had somehow stumbled across a trophy that fell into his hands, and it was a pub trivia trophy that used to be used between two different gaming companies in the UK, and one of those was TSR, UK, the United Kingdom department. And at one point, the company had laid off everybody in that division just say, Okay, we're closing it all down. So the guys went and burned a lot of the stuff that they had, including a copy of the Indiana Jones role playing game, and the only part of the logo that was left said Diana Jones. And for some reason, they put this in a in a fiberglass or Plexiglas pyramid, put it on a base, a wooden base, and it said the Diana Jones award trophy, right? And this was the trophy that they used they passed back and forth as a joke for their pub trivia contest. Fell into James's hands, and he decided, You know what, we're going to give this out for the most excellent thing in gaming every year. And we've now done this. This will be 25 years this summer. We do it at the Wednesday night before Gen Con, which starts on Thursday, usually at the end of July or early August. And as part of that, actually, about five years ago, we started, one of the guys suggested we should do something called the emerging designers program. So we actually became a 501, c3, so we could take donations. And now we take four designers every year, fly them in from wherever they happen to be in the world, and put them up in a hotel, give them a badge the show, introduce them to everybody, give them an honorarium so they can afford to skip work for a week and try to help launch their careers. I mean, these are people that are in the first three years of their design careers, and we try to work mostly with marginalized or et cetera, people who need a little bit more representation in the industry too. Although we can select anybody, and it's been really well received, it's been amazing. And there's a group called the bundle of holding which sells tabletop role playing game PDFs, and they've donated 10s of 1000s of dollars every year for us to be able to do this. And it's kind of funny, because I never thought I'd be end up running a nonprofit, but here I'm just the guy who writes checks to the different to the emerging designer program. Folks are much more tied into that community that I am. But one of the real reasons I wanted to do something like that or be involved with it, because if you wander around with these conventions and you notice that it starts getting very gray after a while, right? It's you're like, oh, there's no new people coming in. It's all older people. I we didn't I didn't want us to all end up as like the Grandpa, grandpa doing the HO model railroad stuff in the basement, right? This dying hobby that only people in their 60s and 70s care about. So bringing in fresh people, fresh voices, I think, is very important, and hopefully we're doing some good with that. It's been a lot of fun either way.   Speaker 1 ** 37:59 Well, I have you had some success with it? Yeah, we've   Matt Forbeck ** 38:02 had, well, let's see. I think we've got like 14 people. We've brought in some have already gone on to do some amazing things. I mean, it's only been a few years, so it's hard to tell if they're gonna be legends in their time, but again, having them as models for other people to look at and say, Oh, maybe I could do that. That's been a great thing. The other well, coincidentally, Dungeons and Dragons is having its best 10 year streak in its history right now, and probably is the best selling it's ever been. So coinciding with that, we've seen a lot more diversity and a lot more people showing up to these wonderful conventions and playing these kinds of games. There's also been an advent of this thing called actual play, which is the biggest one, is a group called Critical Role, which is a whole bunch of voice actors who do different cartoons and video games and such, and they play D and D with each other, and then they record the games, and they produce them on YouTube and for podcasts. And these guys are amazing. There's a couple of other ones too, like dimension 20 and glass cannon, the critical role guys actually sold out a live performance at Wembley Arena last summer. Wow. And dimension. Dimension 20 sold out Madison Square Garden. I'm like, if you'd have told me 20 years ago that you know you could sell out an entire rock stadium to have people watch you play Dungeons and Dragons, I would have laughed. I mean, there's no way it would have been possible. But now, you know, people are very much interested in this. It's kind of wild, and it's, it's fun to be a part of that. At some level,   Speaker 1 ** 39:31 how does the audience get drawn in to something like that? Because they are watching it, but there must be something that draws them in.   Matt Forbeck ** 39:39 Yeah, part of it is that you have some really skilled some actors are very funny, very traumatic and very skilled at improvisation, right? So the the dungeon master or Game Master will sit there and present them with an idea or whatever. They come up each with their own characters. They put them in wonderful, strong voices. They kind of inhabit the roles in a way that an actor. A really top level actor would, as opposed to just, you know, me sitting around a table with my friends. And because of that, they become compelling, right? My Marty and my his wife and I were actually at a convention in Columbus, Ohio last weekend, and this group called the McElroy family, actually, they do my brother, my brother and me, which is a hit podcast, but they also do an actual play podcast called The Adventure zone, where they just play different games. And they are so funny. These guys are just some of the best comedians you'll ever hear. And so them playing, they actually played our Marvel game for a five game session, or a five podcast session, or whatever, and it was just stunningly fun to listen to. People are really talented mess around with something that we built right it's very edifying to see people enjoying something that you worked on.   Speaker 1 ** 40:51 Do you find that the audiences get drawn in and they're actually sort of playing the game along, or as well? And may disagree with what some of the choices are that people make?   Matt Forbeck ** 41:02 Oh, sure. But I mean, if the choices are made from a point of the character that's been expressed, that people are following along and they they already like the character, they might go, Oh, those mean, you know that guy, there are some characters they love to hate. There are some people they're they're angry at whatever, but they always really appreciate the actors. I mean, the actors have become celebrities in their own right. They've they sell millions of dollars for the comic books and animated TV shows and all these amazing things affiliated with their actual play stuff. And it's, I think it, part of it is because, it's because it makes the games more accessible. Some people are intimidated by these games. So it's not really, you know, from a from a physical disability kind of point. It's more of a it makes it more accessible for people to be nervous, to try these things on their own, or don't really quite get how they work. They can just sit down and pop up YouTube or their podcast program and listen into people doing a really good job at it. The unfortunate problem is that the converse of that is, when you're watching somebody do that good of a job at it, it's actually hard to live up to that right. Most people who play these games are just having fun with their friends around a table. They're not performing for, you know, 10s of 1000s, if not hundreds of 1000s of people. So there's a different level of investments, really, at that point, and some people have been known to be cowed by that, by that, or daunted by that.   Speaker 1 ** 42:28 You work on a lot of different things. I gather at the same time. What do you what do you think about that? How do you like working on a lot of different projects? Or do you, do you more focus on one thing, but you've got several things going on, so you'll work on something for one day, then you'll work on something else. Or how do you how do you do it all?   Matt Forbeck ** 42:47 That's a good question. I would love to just focus on one thing at a time. Now, you know the trouble is, I'm a freelancer, right? I don't set my I don't always get to say what I want to work on. I haven't had to look for work for over a decade, though, which has been great. People just come to me with interesting things. The trouble is that when you're a freelancer, people come in and say, Hey, let's work on this. I'm like, Yeah, tell me when you're ready to start. And you do that with like, 10 different people, and they don't always line up in sequence properly, right? Yeah? Sometimes somebody comes up and says, I need this now. And I'm like, Yeah, but I'm in the middle of this other thing right now, so I need to not sleep for another week, and I need to try to figure out how I'm going to put this in between other things I'm working on. And I have noticed that after I finish a project, it takes me about a day or three to just jump track. So if I really need to, I can do little bits here and there, but to just fully get my brain wrapped around everything I'm doing for a very complex project, takes me a day or three to say, Okay, now I'm ready to start this next thing and really devote myself to it. Otherwise, it's more juggling right now, having had all those kids, probably has prepared me to juggle. So I'm used to having short attention span theater going on in my head at all times, because I have to jump back and forth between things. But it is. It's a challenge, and it's a skill that you develop over time where you're like, Okay, I can put this one away here and work on this one here for a little while. Like today, yeah, I knew I was going to talk to you, Michael. So I actually had lined up another podcast that a friend of mine wanted to do with me. I said, Let's do them on the same day. This way I'm not interrupting my workflow so much, right? Makes sense? You know, try to gang those all together and the other little fiddly bits I need to do for administration on a day. Then I'm like, Okay, this is not a day off. It's just a day off from that kind of work. It's a day I'm focusing on this aspect of what I do.   Speaker 1 ** 44:39 But that's a actually brings up an interesting point. Do you ever take a day off or do what do you do when you're when you deciding that you don't want to do gaming for a while?   Matt Forbeck ** 44:49 Yeah, I actually kind of terrible. But you know, you know, my wife will often drag me off to places and say we're going to go do this when. Yes, we have a family cabin up north in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan that we go to. Although, you know, my habit there is, I'll work. I'll start work in the morning on a laptop or iPad until my battery runs out, and then I shut it down, put on a charger, and then I go out and swim with everybody for the rest of the day. So it depends if I'm on a deadline or not, and I'm almost always on a deadline, but there are times I could take weekends off there. One of the great things of being a freelancer, though, and especially being a stay at home father, which is part of what I was doing, is that when things come up during the middle of the week, I could say, oh, sure, I can be flexible, right? The trouble is that I have to pay for that time on my weekends, a lot of the time, so I don't really get a lot of weekends off. On the other hand, I'm not I'm not committed to having to work every day of the week either, right? I need to go do doctor appointments, or we want to run off to Great America and do a theme park or whatever. I can do that anytime I want to. It's just I have to make up the time at other points during the week. Does your wife work? She does. She was a school social worker for many years, and now as a recruiter at a local technical college here called Black Hawk tech. And she's amazing, right? She's fantastic. She has always liked working. The only time she stopped working was for about a year and a half after the quads were born, I guess, two years. And that was the only time I ever took a job working with anybody else, because we needed the health insurance, so I we always got it through her. And then when she said, Well, I'm gonna stay home with the kids, which made tons of sense, I went and took a job with a video game company up in Madison, Wisconsin called Human Head Studios for about 18 months, 20 months. And then the moment she told me she was thinking about going back to work, I'm like, Oh, good, I can we can Cobra for 18 months and pay for our own health insurance, and I'm giving notice this week, and, you know, we'll work. I left on good terms that everybody. I still talk to them and whatever, but I very much like being my own boss and not worrying about what other people are going to tell me to do. I work with a lot of clients, which means I have a lot of people telling me what to do. But you know, if it turns out bad, I can walk I can walk away. If it turns out good, hopefully we get to do things together, like the the gig I've been working out with Marvel, I guess, has been going on for like, four years now, with pretty continuous work with them, and I'm enjoying every bit of it. They're great people to work with.   Speaker 1 ** 47:19 Now, you were the president of Pinnacle entertainment for a little while. Tell me about that.   Matt Forbeck ** 47:24 I was, that was a small gaming company I started up with a guy named Shane Hensley, who was another tabletop game designer. Our big game was something called Dead Lands, which was a Western zombie cowboy kind of thing. Oh gosh, Western horror. So. And it was pretty much a, you know, nobody was doing Western horror back in those days. So we thought, Oh, this is safe. And to give you an example of parallel development, we were six months into development, and another company, White Wolf, which had done a game called Vampire the Masquerade, announced that they were doing Werewolf the Wild West. And we're like, you gotta be kidding me, right? Fortunately, we still released our game three months before there, so everybody thought we were copying them, rather than the other way around. But the fact is, we were. We both just came up with the idea independently. Right? When you work in creative fields, often, if somebody wants to show you something, you say, I'd like to look at you have to sign a waiver first that says, If I do something like this, you can't sue me. And it's not because people are trying to rip you off. It's because they may actually be working on something similar, right already. Because we're all, you know, swimming in the same cultural pool. We're all, you know, eating the same cultural soup. We're watching or watching movies, playing games, doing whatever, reading books. And so it's not unusual that some of us will come up with similar ideas   Speaker 1 ** 48:45 well, and it's not surprising that from time to time, two different people are going to come up with somewhat similar concepts. So that's not a big surprise, exactly, but   Matt Forbeck ** 48:56 you don't want people getting litigious over it, like no, you don't be accused of ripping anybody off, right? You just want to be as upfront with people. With people. And I don't think I've ever actually seen somebody, at least in gaming, in tabletop games, rip somebody off like that. Just say, Oh, that's a great idea. We're stealing that it's easier to pay somebody to just say, Yes, that's a great idea. We'll buy that from you, right? As opposed to trying to do something unseemly and criminal?   Speaker 1 ** 49:24 Yeah, there's, there's something to be said for having real honor in the whole process.   Matt Forbeck ** 49:30 Yeah, I agree, and I think that especially if you're trying to have a long term career in any field that follows you, if you get a reputation for being somebody who plays dirty, nobody wants to play with you in the future, and I've always found it to be best to be as straightforward with people and honest, especially professionally, just to make sure that they trust you. Before my quadruplets were born, you could have set your clock by me as a freelancer, I never missed a deadline ever, and since then, I've probably it's a. Rare earth thing to make a deadline, because, you know, family stuff happens, and you know, there's just no controlling it. But whenever something does happen, I just call people up and say, hey, look, it's going to be another week or two. This is what's going on. And because I have a good reputation for completing the job and finishing quality work, they don't mind. They're like, Oh, okay, I know you're going to get this to me. You're not just trying to dodge me. So they're willing to wait a couple weeks if they need to, to get to get what they need. And I'm very grateful to them for that. And I'm the worst thing somebody can do is what do, what I call turtling down, which is when it's like, Oh no, I'm late. And then, you know, they cut off all communication. They don't talk to anybody. They just kind of try to disappear as much as they can. And we all, all adults, understand that things happen in your life. It's okay. We can cut you some slack every now and then, but if you just try to vanish, that's not even possible.   Speaker 1 ** 50:54 No, there's a lot to be there's a lot to be said for trust and and it's so important, I think in most anything that we do, and I have found in so many ways, that there's nothing better than really earning someone's trust, and they earning your trust. And it's something I talk about in my books, like when live with a guide dog, live like a guide dog, which is my newest book, it talks a lot about trust, because when you're working with a guide dog, you're really building a team, and each member of the team has a specific job to do, and as the leader of the team, it's my job to also learn how to communicate with the other member of the team. But the reality is, it still comes down to ultimately, trust, because I and I do believe that dogs do love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally. But the difference between dogs and people is that people that dogs are much more open to trust, for the most part, unless they've just been totally traumatized by something, but they're more open to trust. And there's a lesson to be learned there. No, I   Matt Forbeck ** 52:03 absolutely agree with that. I think, I think most people in general are trustworthy, but as you say, a lot of them have trauma in their past that makes it difficult for them to open themselves up to that. So that's actually a pretty wonderful way to think about things. I like that,   Speaker 1 ** 52:17 yeah, well, I think that trust is is so important. And I know when I worked in professional sales, it was all about trust. In fact, whenever I interviewed people for jobs, I always asked them what they were going to sell, and only one person ever answered me the way. I really hoped that everybody would answer when I said, So, tell me what you're going to be selling. He said, The only thing I have to really sell is myself and my word, and nothing else. It really matters. Everything else is stuff. What you have is stuff. It's me selling myself and my word, and you have to, and I would expect you to back me up. And my response was, as long as you're being trustworthy, then you're going to get my backing all the way. And he was my most successful salesperson for a lot of reasons, because he got it.   Matt Forbeck ** 53:08 Yeah, that's amazing. I mean, I mean, I've worked with people sourcing different things too, for sales, and if you can rely on somebody to, especially when things go wrong, to come through for you. And to be honest with you about, you know, there's really that's a hard thing to find. If you can't depend on your sources for what you're building, then you can't depend on anything. Everything else falls apart.   Speaker 1 ** 53:29 It does. You've got to start at the beginning. And if people can't earn your trust, and you earn theirs, there's a problem somewhere, and it's just not going to work.   Matt Forbeck ** 53:39 Yeah, I just generally think people are decent and want to help. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've had issues. Car breaks down the road in Wisconsin. Here, if somebody's car goes in the ditch, everybody stops and just hauls them out. It's what you do when the quads were born, my stepmother came up with a sign up sheet, a booklet that she actually had spiral bound, that people could sign up every three three hours to help come over and feed and bathe, diaper, whatever the kids and we had 30 to 35 volunteers coming in every week. Wow, to help us out with that was amazing, right? They just each pick slots, feeding slots, and come in and help us out. I had to take the 2am feeding, and my wife had to take the 5am feeding by ourselves. But the rest of the week we had lots and lots of help, and we were those kids became the surrogate grandchildren for, you know, 30 to 35 women and couples really, around the entire area, and it was fantastic. Probably couldn't have survived   Speaker 1 ** 54:38 without it. And the other part about it is that all those volunteers loved it, because you all appreciated each other, and it was always all about helping and assisting.   Matt Forbeck ** 54:48 No, we appreciate them greatly. But you know every most of them, like 99% of them, whatever were women, 95 women who are ready for grandchildren and didn't have them. Had grandchildren, and they weren't in the area, right? And they had that, that love they wanted to share, and they just loved the opportunity to do it. It was, I'm choking up here talking about such a great time for us in   Speaker 1 ** 55:11 that way. Now I'm assuming today, nobody has to do diaper duty with the quads, right?   Matt Forbeck ** 55:16 Not until they have their own kids. Just checking, just checking, thankfully, think we're that is long in our past,   Speaker 1 ** 55:23 is it? Is it coming fairly soon for anybody in the future?   Matt Forbeck ** 55:27 Oh, I don't know. That's really entirely up to them. We would love to have grandchildren, but you know, it all comes in its own time. They're not doing no well. I, one of my sons is married, so it's possible, right? And one of my other sons has a long term girlfriend, so that's possible, but, you know, who knows? Hopefully they're they have them when they're ready. I always say, if you have kids and you want them, that's great. If you have, if you don't have kids and you don't want them, that's great. It's when you cross the two things that,   Speaker 1 ** 55:57 yeah, trouble, yeah, that's that is, that is a problem. But you really like working with yourself. You love the entre

As you will learn, our guest this time, Walden Hughes, is blind and has a speech issue. However, as you also will discover none of this has stopped Walden from doing what he wants and likes. I would not say Walden is driven. Instead, I would describe Walden as a man of vision who works calmly to accomplish whatever task he wishes to undertake. Walden grew up in Southern California including attending and graduating from the University of California at Irvine. Walden also received his Master's degree from UCI. Walden's professional life has been in the financial arena where he has proven quite successful. However, Walden also had other plans for his life. He has had a love of vintage radio programs since he was a child. For him, however, it wasn't enough to listen to programs. He found ways to meet hundreds of people who were involved in radio and early television. His interviews air regularly on www.yesterdayusa.net which he now directs. Walden is one of those people who works to make life better for others through the various entertainment projects he undertakes and helps manage. I hope you find Walden's life attitude stimulating and inspiring. About the Guest: With deep roots in U.S. history and a lifelong passion for nostalgic entertainment, Walden Hughes has built an impressive career as an entertainment consultant, producer, and historian of old-time radio. Since beginning his collection in 1976, he has amassed over 50,000 shows and has gone on to produce live events, conventions, and radio recreations across the country, interviewing over 200 celebrities along the way. A graduate of UC Irvine with both a BA in Economics and Political Science and an MBA in Accounting/Finance, he also spent a decade in the investment field before fully embracing his love of entertainment history. His leadership includes serving as Lions Club President, President of Radio Enthusiasts of Puget Sound, and long-time board member of SPERDVAC, earning numerous honors such as the Eagle Scout rank, Herb Ellis Award, and the Dick Beals Award. Today, he continues to preserve and celebrate the legacy of radio and entertainment through Yesterday USA and beyond. Ways to connect with Walden: SPERDVAC: https://m.facebook.com/sperdvacconvention/ Yesterday USA: https://www.facebook.com/share/16jHW7NdCZ/?mibextid=wwXIfr REPS: https://www.facebook.com/share/197TW27jRi/?mibextid=wwXIfr About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset, where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. We're going to deal with all of that today. We have a guest who I've known for a while. I didn't know I knew him as long as I did, but yeah, but we'll get to that. His name is Walden Hughes, and he is, among other things, the person who is the driving force now behind a website yesterday USA that plays 24 hours a day old radio shows. What I didn't know until he told me once is that he happened to listen to my show back on K UCI in Irvine when I was doing the Radio Hall of Fame between 1969 and 1976 but I only learned that relatively recently, and I didn't actually meet Walden until a few years ago, when we moved down to Victorville and we we started connecting more, and I started listening more to yesterday, USA. We'll talk about some of that. But as you can tell, we're talking, once again, about radio and vintage radio programs, old radio programs from the 30s, 40s and 50s, like we did a few weeks ago with Carl Amari. We're going to have some other people on. Walden is helping us get some other people onto unstoppable mindset, like, in a few weeks, we're going to introduce and talk with Zuzu. Now, who knows who Zuzu is? I know Walden knows, but I'll bet most of you don't. Here's a clue. Whenever a bell rings, an angel gets his wingsu was the little girl on. It's a Wonderful Life. The movie played by Carol from Yeah, and she the star was Carolyn Grimes, and we've met Carolyn. Well, we'll get to all that. I've talked enough. Walden, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're   Walden Hughes ** 03:19 here. Hello, Michael boy, I mean, you, you had John Roy on years ago, and now you finally got to me that's pretty amazing.   Michael Hingson ** 03:25 Well, you know, we should have done it earlier, but that's okay, but, but you know what they say, the best is always saved for last.   Walden Hughes ** 03:34 Hey. Well, you know, considering you've been amazing with this show on Friday night for the last year. So here yesterday, USA, so we you and I definitely know our ins and outs. So this should be an easy our place talk.   Michael Hingson ** 03:47 Yes. Is this the time to tell people that Walden has the record of having 42 tootsie rolls in his mouth at once?   Walden Hughes ** 03:52 That's what they say. I think we could do more, though, you know. But yeah, yeah. Well, we won't ask, miss, yeah, we won't ask you to do that here. Why not?   Michael Hingson ** 04:03 Yeah, we want you to be able to talk. Well, I'm really glad you're here. Tell us a little about the early Walden growing up and all that.   Walden Hughes ** 04:12 I'm my mom and dad are from Nebraska, so I have a lot of Midwestern Nebraska ties. They moved out here for jobs in 65 and I was born in 1966 and I was the first baby to ever survive the world Pierre syndrome, which means I was born with a cleft palate, being extremely near sighted and and a cup and a recession. So I was the first baby through my mom and dad debt by $10,000 in 17 days, and it was a struggle for my folks. You know, in those early days, without insurance, without any. Thing like that. You know, people really didn't think about medical insurance and things like that in those days, that was not an issue. So, um, so I've always had extremely loving family. Then I went through five retina detachments, and starting when I was seven years old, up to I was nine, and I finally woke up one morning seeing white half circle so the retina detached. Sometime in the middle of the night, went to the most famous eye doctor the world at times, Dr Robert macchermer, who was the one who invented the cataract surgery and everything. Later, he wound up being the head of Duke Medical that was down in Florida, and they took one last ditch effort to save my sight, but it was a 2% chance, and it didn't work out. So they went blind in November 75 and went into school for people who may or may not know California pretty aggressive in terms of education, and so when I wear hearing aids, so I parted a hard of hearing class. Newport school. Mesa took care of the kids who were hard of hearing and the blind children went up to Garden Grove. So when I walked my site, went up to Garden Grove. And so that was my dedication. I was always a driven person. So and I also had a family that supported me everything I ever did. They didn't it just they were ultimately supporting me in education, all sorts of stuff. So I wound up in the Boy Scout Program. Wound up being an Eagle Scout like you, wound up being visual honoring the OA. And this was always side of kids. I was sort of the organizer all decided kid, and there was Walden that was right, I was that way in my entire life, which is interesting that the most kids are all hanging out. We were sighted and and even the school district, which was pretty amazing to think about it, Newport, they told my mom and dad, hey, when Wong ready to come back to his home school district, we'll cover the bill. We'll do it. And so my freshman year, after my freshman year in high school, we thought, yeah, it's time to come back. And so the Newport school, Mesa picked up the tab, and so did very well. Went up, applied to seven colleges, Harvard, a Yale Stanford turned me down, but everybody else took me   Michael Hingson ** 07:53 so, but you went to the best school anyway.   Walden Hughes ** 07:57 So I mean, either like Michael Troy went to UCI and I graduated in three years and two quarters with a degree in economics, a degree in politics, a minor in management, and then I went to work as a financial planner with American Express and then a stockbroker. I always wanted to go back get my MBA. So I got my MBA at UCI, and I graduated with my MBA in accounting and finance in 1995 so that's sort of the academic part Wow of my life.   Michael Hingson ** 08:32 How did your parents handle when it was first discovered that you were blind? So that would have been in what 75 how do they handle that?   Walden Hughes ** 08:42 They handle it really well. I think my dad was wonderful. My dad was the one that took, took me my birth, to all the doctor appointments, you know, such a traumatic thing for my mom. So my dad took that responsibility. My mom just clean house. But they, they My dad always thought if I were going to make it through life, it was going to be between my ears. It could be my brain and I, I was gifted and academically in terms of my analytical abilities are really off the chart. They tested me like in 160 and that mean I could take a very complicated scenario, break it down and give you a quick answer how to solve it within seconds. And that that that paid off. So no, I think, and they they had complete and so they put in the time.   Michael Hingson ** 09:47 What kind of work did your dad do? My dad   Walden Hughes ** 09:51 wound up being a real estate agent, okay, and so that gave him flexibility time. My mom wound up working for the Irvine camp. Attorney, which is the big agriculture at that time, now, apartments and commercial real estate here in oil County and so. So with their support and with the emphasis on education, and so they helped me great. They helped my brother a great deal. So I think in my case, having two really actively involved parents paid off, you know, in terms of, they knew where to support me and they knew the one to give me my give me my head, you know, because I would a classic example of this. After I graduated from college at UCI, I was looking for work, and mom said, my mom's saying, oh, keep go to rehab. Talk to them. They're both to help you out, give it. I really wasn't interested, so I sat down and met with them and had several interviews, and they said we're not going to fund you because either A, you're gonna be so successful on your own you pay for your own stuff, or B, you'll completely fail. So when I, and that's when they flat out, told me at rehab, so I I had more more luck in the private sector finding work than I did ever in the public sector, which was interesting.   Michael Hingson ** 11:39 I know that when I was in high school, and they it's still around today, of course, they had a program called SSI through the Department of Social Security, and then that there, there was also another program aid of the potentially self supporting blind, and we applied for those. And when I went to UC Irvine, I had met, actually, in 1964 a gentleman while I was up getting my guide dog. He was getting a guide dog. His name was Howard Mackey, and when I went to college, my parents also explored me getting some services and assistance from the Department of Rehabilitation, and I was accepted, and then Howard Mackey ended up becoming my counselor. And the neat thing about it was he was extremely supportive and really helped in finding transcribers to put physics books in braille, paid for whatever the state did it at the time, readers and other things like that that I needed provided equipment. It was really cool. He was extremely supportive, which I was very grateful for. But yeah, I can understand sometimes the rehabilitation world can be a little bit wonky. Of course, you went into it some 18 to 20 years later than that. I, in a sense, started it because I started in 6869 Yeah. And I think over time, just the state got cheaper, everything got cheaper. And of course, now it's really a lot different than it used to be, and it's a lot more challenging to get services from a lot of the agencies. And of course, in our current administration, a lot of things are being cut, and nobody knows exactly what's going to happen. And that's pretty   Walden Hughes ** 13:30 scary, actually. When I went to UCI, the school picked it up the pic, the school picked up my transcribing. They picked up my readers and all that. So interesting. How?   Michael Hingson ** 13:39 But did they let you hire your own readers and so on? Or do they do that?   Walden Hughes ** 13:43 They just put out the word, and people came up and and they paid them. So they just, they were just looking for volunteer, looking for people on the campus to do all the work. And, yeah, in fact, in fact, I had one gal who read pretty much all my years. She was waiting to get a job in the museum. And the job she wanted, you basically had to die to get it open. And so she for a full time employee with the read, can I be taking 20 units a quarter? Yeah. So I was, I was cranking it out. And in those days, everybody, you were lucky they I was lucky to get the material a week or two before midterm. Yeah, so I would speed up the tape and do a couple all nighters just to get through, because I really didn't want to delay, delay by examinations. I wanted to get it, get it through. But, uh, but, you know, but also, I guess I was going four times just throughout the quarter, set them into the summer. Okay, I wanted to get it done. Yeah, so that's, that's how I   Michael Hingson ** 14:50 did it. I didn't do summer school, but I did 16 to 20 units a quarter as well, and kept readers pretty busy and was never questioned. And even though we have some pretty hefty reader bills, but it it worked, no and and I hired my own readers, we put out the word, but I hired my own readers. And now I think that's really important. If a school pays for the readers, but lets you hire the readers, that's good, because I think that people need to learn how to hire and fire and how to learn what's necessary and how to get the things that they need. And if the agency or the school does it all and they don't learn how to do it, that's a problem.   Walden Hughes ** 15:36 If fashioning is just a sidebar issue, computer really became a big part. And with my hearing loss, TSI was really, yeah, telesensory, the one Incorporated, right? And they were upscale, everybody. It was, you know, $2,500 a pop. And for my hearing, it was the was for the card, the actual card that fits into the slot that would read, oh, okay, okay, right. And eventually they went with software with me, a lot cheaper, yes, and so, so my folks paid for that in the early days, the mid 80s, the computers and the software and a lot of that were trial and error terms of there was not any customer support from the from the computer company that were making special products like that, you were pretty much left on your own to figure it out. Yeah, and so time I went to graduate in 1990 we figured, in the business world, financial planning, I'm gonna need a whole complete setup at work, and we're gonna cost me 20 grand, yeah, and of course, when we have saying, We biking it, we're gonna finance it. What happened was, and this has helped with the scouting program. I knew the vice president of the local bank. And in those days, if it was, if it was still a small bank, he just went, he gave me a personal loan, hmm, and he, I didn't have to get any code centers or anything. No, we're gonna be the first one to finance you. You get your own computer set up. And so they, they, they financed it for me, and then also Boyle kicked in for 7500 but that was, that's how I was able to swing my first really complicated $20,000 units in 1990   Michael Hingson ** 17:33 the Braille Institute had a program. I don't know whether they still do or not they, they had a program where they would pay for, I don't know whether the top was 7500 I know they paid for half the cost of technology, but that may have been the upper limit. I know I used the program to get in when we moved, when we moved to New Jersey. I was able to get one of the, at that time, $15,000 Kurzweil Reading machines that was in 1996 and Braille Institute paid for half that. So it was pretty cool. But you mentioned TSI, which is telesensory Systems, Inc, for those who who wouldn't know that telesensory was a very innovative company that developed a lot of technologies that blind and low vision people use. For example, they developed something called the optic on which was a box that had a place where you could put a finger, and then there was attached to it a camera that you could run over a printed page, and it would display in the box a vibrating image of each character as the camera scanned across the page. It wasn't a really fast reading program. I think there were a few people who could read up to 80 words a minute, but it was still originally one of the first ways that blind people had access to print.   Walden Hughes ** 18:59 And the first guinea pig for the program. Can I just walk my site in 75 and they, they wanted me to be on there. I was really the first one that the school supply the optic on and has special training, because they knew I knew what site looked like for everybody, what Mike's describing. It was dB, the electronic waves, but it'd be in regular print letters, not, not broil waters, right? What   Michael Hingson ** 19:25 you felt were actually images of the print letters, yeah.   Walden Hughes ** 19:30 And the thing got me about it, my hand tingled after a while,   Michael Hingson ** 19:35 yeah, mine   Walden Hughes ** 19:36 to last forever,   Michael Hingson ** 19:38 you know. So it was, it wasn't something that you could use for incredibly long periods of time. Again, I think a few people could. But basically, print letters are made to be seen, not felt, and so that also limited the speed. Of course, technology is a whole lot different today, and the optic on has has faded away. And as Walden said, the card that would. Used to plug into computer slots that would verbalize whatever came across the screen has now given way to software and a whole lot more that makes it a lot more usable. But still, there's a lot of advances to be made. But yeah, we we both well, and another thing that TSI did was they made probably the first real talking calculator, the view, plus, remember   Walden Hughes ** 20:25 that? Yep, I know a good sound quality.   Michael Hingson ** 20:28 Though it was good sound quality. It was $395 and it was really a four function calculator. It wasn't scientific or anything like that, but it still was the first calculator that gave us an opportunity to have something that would at least at a simple level, compete with what sighted people did. And yes, you could plug your phone so they couldn't so sighted people, if you were taking a test, couldn't hear what what the calculator was saying. But at that time, calculators weren't really allowed in the classroom anyway, so   Walden Hughes ** 21:00 my downside was, time I bought the equipment was during the DOS mode, and just like that, window came over, and that pretty much made all my equipment obsolete, yeah, fairly quickly, because I love my boil display. That was terrific for for when you learn with computers. If you're blind, you didn't really get a feel what the screen looked like everybody. And with a Braille display, which mine was half the screen underneath my keyboard, I could get a visual feel how things laid out on the computer. It was easier for me to communicate with somebody. I knew what they were talking   Michael Hingson ** 21:42 about, yeah. And of course, it's gotten so much better over time. But yeah, I remember good old MS DOS. I still love to play some of the old MS DOS games, like adventure and all that, though, and Zork and some of those fun games.   Walden Hughes ** 21:57 But my understanding dos is still there. It's just windows on top of it, basically,   Michael Hingson ** 22:02 if you open a command prompt in Windows that actually takes you to dos. So dos is still there. It is attached to the whole system. And sometimes you can go in and enter commands through dos to get things done a little bit easier than you might be able to with the normal graphic user interface, right? Well, so you, you got your master's degree in 1995 and so you then continue to work in the financial world, or what did   Walden Hughes ** 22:35 it for 10 years, but five years earlier? Well, maybe I should back it up this way. After I lost my site in 1976 I really gravitated to the radio, and my generation fell in love with talk radio, so I and we were really blessed here in the LA market with really terrific hosts at KBC, and it wasn't all the same thing over and over and beating the drum. And so listening to Ray Breen, Michael Jackson, IRA for still kill Hemingway, that was a great opportunity for somebody who was 10 years old.   Michael Hingson ** 23:18 Really, they were all different shows. And yes, I remember once we were listening to, I think it was Michael Jackson. It was on Sunday night, and we heard this guy talking about submarines, and it just attracted Karen's and my attention. And it turns out what it was was Tom Clancy talking about Hunt for Red October. Wow. And that's where we first heard about it, and then went and found the book.   Walden Hughes ** 23:45 But So I grew up in the talk radio, and then that, and I fell in love with country music at the time on koec, and then Jim Healy and sports, yep, and then, and then we were blessed in the LA market have a lot of old time radio played, and it was host like Mike was here at K UCI, John Roy, eventually over KPCC, Bob line. And so my relatives said you should listen to this marathon KPFK, which was a Pacific did an all day marathon. I fell in love with that. Jay Lacher, then one night, after I walked my site, I tuned in. Ray bream took the night off, and Bill balance had frankly sit in. And the first thing they played was Jack Armstrong, and this is where Jack, Jack and Billy get caught up in a snow storm and a bone down the hill. And Brett Morrison came in during the one o'clock two o'clock hour to talk about the shadow. And so my dad took me to, oh, I'm trying to think of the name of the record. Or if they gave away licorice, licorice at the at the record store tower, yeah, not Tower Records. Um, anyway, so we bought two eight track tapes in 1976 the shadow and Superman, and I started my long life of collecting and so. So here we up to 1990 after collecting for 15 years. Going to spill back conventional meetings. I knew Ray bream was going to have kitty Cowan at the guest. Kitty Cowan was a big band singer of the 40s who later the fifth little things mean a lot. And I figured nobody was going to act about her days on the Danny Kaye radio show. And so I called in. They realized I had the stuff. I had the radio shows, they took me off the air, and Kitty's husband, but grand off called me the next day, and we struck up a friendship. And so they were really connected in Hollywood, and so they opened so many doors for me. Mike I Katie's best friend with Nancy Lacher, SR bud with the one of the most powerful agents in town, the game show hosting, who could come up with a TV ideas, but did not know how to run a organization. So that was Chuck Paris, hmm, and Gong Show, yeah, so I wound up, they wound up giving me, hire me to find the old TV shows, the music, all that stuff around the country. And so I started to do that for the Sinatra family, everybody else. So I would, while we do the financial planning, my internet consulting thing really took off. So that wound up being more fun and trying to sell disability insurance, yeah. So one wound up doing that until the internet took over. So that would that. So my whole life would really reshape through kitty Carolyn and Ben granoff through that. So I really connected in the Hollywood industry from that point on, starting 1990 so that that really opened up, that really sure reshaped my entire life, just because of that   Michael Hingson ** 27:28 and you've done over the years, one of the other things that you started to do was to interview a lot of these people, a lot of the radio stars, The radio actors   Walden Hughes ** 27:39 and music and TV, music,   Michael Hingson ** 27:44 yeah.   Walden Hughes ** 27:45 And I think when Bill Bragg asked me to interview kitty Carol, and I did that in 2000 and Bill said, Well, could you do more? And so one of Kitty friends, but test Russell. Test was Gene Autry Girl Friday. He she ran kmpc for him. And I think everybody in the music industry owed her a favor. I mean, I had Joe Stafford to Pat Boone to everybody you could think of from the from that big band, 3040s, and 60s on the show. Let's go   Michael Hingson ** 28:24 back. Let's go back. Tell us about Bill Bragg.   Walden Hughes ** 28:29 Bill Bragg was an interesting character all by himself. Born in 1946 he was a TV camera man for CBS in Dallas. He was also a local music jockey, nothing, nothing, big, big claims of fame boys working for channel two. And then he in Dallas, he was at a press conference with LBJ, and LBJ got done speaking, and the camera crew decided that they were going to pack up and go to lunch. And Bill thought it'd be fun to mark what camera, what microphone the President used for his address, and the guys were in a rush door in the box, let's go have lunch. So Bill lost track, and that bothered him. So he started the largest communication Museum in 1979 and he collected and was donated. And so he had the biggest museum. He had a film exchanger. So in those early days of cable TVs, you know, we had a lot of TV stations specializing in programming, and there were channels, I think this was called a nostalgic channel, wanted to run old TV shows and films. They had the film, but they didn't. Have the equipment. And they got hold of Bill. He said, Okay, I'll do it for you. But what you're going to give me is games. Bill was a wheel and dealer, yeah. And Charlie said, We'll give you your own satellite channel. And I was talking to Bill friend later, John women in those days, in the 1983 when Bill got it, the value of those satellite channels was a million dollars a year, and he got it for free. And Bill would try and figure out, What in the world I'm going to do with this, and that's when he decided to start playing with old time radio, because really nobody was playing that on a national basis. You had different people playing it on a local basis, but not really on a national basis. So Bill was sort of the first one before I play old time radio. I became aware of him because of bur back, so I was trying to get the service on my cable TV company. Was unsuccessful.   Michael Hingson ** 30:58 So what he did is he broadcast through the satellite channel, and then different television stations or companies could if they chose to pick up the feed and broadcast it. Did, they broadcast it on a TV channel or   Walden Hughes ** 31:13 on radio public asset channel. Okay, so remember note day a lot of public it would have the bulletin boards with the local news of right community, and lot of them would play Bill can't   Michael Hingson ** 31:28 play Bill's channel because the only because what they were doing was showing everything on the screen, which didn't help us. But right they would show things on the screen, and they would play music or something in the background. So Bill's programs were a natural thing to play,   Walden Hughes ** 31:44 yeah, and so Bill wound up on a stout then he wound up being the audio shop Troyer for WGN, which was a nice break and so. And then Bill got it to be played in 2000 nursing homes and hospitals, and then local AMFM stations would pick us up. They were looking for overnight programming, so local throughout the country would pick it up. And so Bill, Bill was a go getter. He was a great engineer, and knew how to build things on the cheap. He was not a businessman, you know, he couldn't take it to the next level, but, but at least he was able to come up with a way to run a station, 24 hours a day. It was all the tapes were sent down to Nash, down to Tennessee, to be uploaded to play into the system. Eventually, he built a studio and everything in Dallas. And so,   Michael Hingson ** 32:38 of course, what what Weldon is saying is that that everything was on tape, whether it was cassette or reel to reel, well, reel to reel, and they would play the tapes through a tape machine, a player or recorder, and put it out on the satellite channels, which was how they had to do it. And that's how we did it at kuci, we had tape, and I would record on Sunday nights, all the shows that we were going to play on a given night on a reel of tape. We would take it in and we would play it.   Walden Hughes ** 33:13 And so that's how it's done in the 80s. Eventually built bill, built a studio, and then started to do a live show once a week. Eventually, they grew up to four days a week. And so here is about 1999 or so, and they were playing Musa from kitty cat, and did not know who she was. I would quickly, I would quickly give a couple background from AIM hang up. I didn't really they had no idea who I was yet. I didn't talk about what I would do and things like that. I was just supplying information. And eventually, after two years, they asked me to bring kitty on the show, which I did, and then I started to book guests on a regular basis for them, and then eventually, the guy who I enjoyed all time radio shows listening to Frank Percy 1976 built decided that I should be his producer, and so I wound up producing the Friday Night Live show with Frankie, and eventually we got it up and running, 2002 So Frank and I did it together for 16 years and so that so Bill built a studio in Texas, mailed it all to my House. My dad didn't have any engineering ability. So he and my bill got on the phone and built me a whole studio in six hours, and I was up and running with my own studio here in my bedroom, in 2002 and so overhead, I'm in my bedroom ever since Michael, you know, there you go.   Michael Hingson ** 34:58 Well and to tell people about. Frank Bresee Frank, probably the biggest claim to fame is that he had a program called the golden days of radio, and it was mainly something that was aired in the Armed Forces Radio and Television Service on the radio, where he would every show play excerpts of different radio programs and so on. And one of the neat things that's fascinating for Frank was that because he was doing so much with armed forces, and doing that, he had access to all of the libraries around the world that the Armed Forces Radio and Television Service had, so he could go in and oftentimes get shows and get things that no one else really had because they were only available in at least initially, in these military libraries. But he would put them on the air, and did a great job with it for many, many years. Yeah, Frank   Walden Hughes ** 35:53 was an interesting character, a pure entrepreneur. He invented a game called pass out, which was a drinking game, board game, and he for 20 years, he spent six months in Europe, six months in United States. And he was making so much money in Europe, he would rent out castles and lived in them, and he would and he would spend months at a time in Germany, which was the main headquarter of art, and just sit there in the archives and make copies of things he wanted to play on his show, yeah. And so that's how he built that. And then he he started collecting transcriptions when he would to 10 he was a radio actor, and so he had one of the largest collection, collection, and he his house, his family house was in Hancock Park, which was the, it was Beverly Hills before Beverly Hills, basically, what did he play on radio? Well, when he was, he was he was deceptive. He was the backup little beaver. When someone Tommy, writer, yeah, when, when Tommy Cook had another project, it was Frank be was a substitute. And so that was a short coin of fame. He did bit parts on other shows, but, but that's what he did as a kid. Eventually, I think Frank came from a very wealthy family. He wound up owning the first radio station when he was 19 years old on Catalina Island in 1949 and then he wound up being a record producer. He worked with Walter Winchell, created albums on without about Al Jolson worked on Eddie Cantor and Jimmy Durante and anyway, Frank, Frank had a career with game with creating board games, doing radio and having an advertising company. Frank was responsible for giving all the game shows, the prices for TV and the way he would do it, he would call an advertise, he would call a company. He said, you want your product. Beyond on this section, go to say, yes, okay, give us, give us the product, and give me 150 bucks. And so Frank would keep the cash, and he would give the project to the TV shows,   Michael Hingson ** 38:17 Dicker and Dicker of Beverly Hills. I remember that on so many shows   Walden Hughes ** 38:23 so So Frank was a wheeling dealer, and he loved radio. That was his passion project. He probably made less money doing that, but he just loved doing it, and he was just hit his second house. The family house was 8400 square feet, and so it was pretty much a storage unit for Frank hobbies, right? And we and he had 30,000 transcriptions in one time. But when he was Europe, he had a couple of floods, so he lost about 10 to 20,000 of them. Okay? Folks did not know how to keep them dry, but he had his professional studio built. And so I would book guests. I arranged for art link writer to come over, and other people, Catherine Crosby, to come over, and Frank would do the interviews. And so I was a big job for me to keep the Friday night show going and get Frankie's guess boy shows. I would have been. He died,   Michael Hingson ** 39:22 and he was a really good interviewer. Yeah, I remember especially he did an interview that we in, that you played on yesterday USA. And I was listening to it with Mel Blanc, which is, which is very fascinating. But he was a great interviewer. I think it was 1969 that he started the golden days of radio, starting 49 actually, or 49 not 69 Yeah, 49 that was directly local, on,   Walden Hughes ** 39:49 on Carolina, and K, I, G, l, which was a station I think heard out in the valley, pretty much, yeah, we could pick it up. And then, and then he started with on. Forces around 65   Michael Hingson ** 40:02 that's what I was thinking of. I thought it was 69 but,   Walden Hughes ** 40:06 and well, he was, on those days there were armed forces Europe picked them up. And also, there was also the international Armed Forces served around the far eastern network, right? Yeah. And so by 67 he was pretty much full on 400 stations throughout the whole world. And I that's probably how you guys picked him up, you know, through that capability.   Michael Hingson ** 40:30 Well, that's where I first heard of him and and the only thing for me was I like to hear whole shows, and he played excerpts so much that was a little frustrating. But he was such a neat guy, you couldn't help but love all the history that he brought to it   Walden Hughes ** 40:46 and and then he would produce live Christmas shows with with the radio. He would interview the guest he, you know, so he had access to people that nobody generally had, you know. He worked for Bob Hope, right? So he was able to get to Jack Benny and Bing Crosby and yes, people like that, Groucho Marx. So he was, he had connections that were beyond the average Old Time Radio buff. He was truly a great guy to help the hobby out, and loved radio very much.   Michael Hingson ** 41:21 Well, going back to Bill Bragg a little bit, so he had the satellite channel, and then, of course, we got the internet, which opened so many things for for Frank or Frank for, well, for everybody but for Bill. And he started the program yesterday, usa.net, on the radio through the internet,   Walden Hughes ** 41:44 which he was the first one in 1996 right? There's a great story about that. There was a company called broadcast.com I bet you remember that company, Mike. Anyway, it was founded by a guy who loved college basketball, and he was a big Hoosier fan, and he was living in Texas, and so he would generally call long distance to his buddy, and they would put up the radio. He could went to the basketball games. And eventually he decided, well, maybe I could come up and stream it on my computer, and all these equipment breaking down, eventually he came up with the idea of, well, if I had a satellite dish, I could pick up the feed and put and stream it on the computer, that way people could hear it right. And he hired bill to do that, and he offered bill a full time job installing satellites and working Bill turned them down, and the guy wound up being Mark Cuban. Yeah, and Mark Cuban gave every every employee, when he sold broadcast.com to Yahoo, a million dollar bonus. So Bill missed out on that, but, but in exchange, Mike Cuban gave him broadcast.com While USA channel for free. So Bill never had to pay in the early days, until about 2002 so when Yahoo decided to get out of the streaming business for a while, then that's when we had to find and we found life 365 eventually, and we were paying pretty good. We're paying a really good rate with like 265 Bill was used to paying free, and we were paying, I think, under $100 and I knew guys later a couple years, were paying over $500 a month. And we were, we were, but there was such a willing deal able to get those things for really dope less   Michael Hingson ** 43:45 money, yeah. Now I remember being in New Jersey and I started hearing ads for an internet radio station. This was in the very late 90s, maybe even into 2000 W, A, B, y. It was a company, a show that a station that played a lot of old songs from the 50s and 60s and so on. And it was, it was, if you tuned on to it, you could listen. And after four or five hours, things would start to repeat, and then eventually it disappeared. But I started looking around, and I don't even remember how I found it, but one day I heard about this radio station, www, dot yesterday, usa.net. Right, yep.net.com,   Walden Hughes ** 44:31 yep, and yeah. And   Michael Hingson ** 44:33 I said, Well, oh, I think I actually heard an ad for it on W, A, B, y, when it was still around. Anyway, I went to it, and they were playing old radio shows, and they had a number of people who would come on and play shows. Everyone had an hour and a half show, and every two weeks you would have to send in a new show. But they. They played old radio shows, 24 hours a day and seven days a week, except they also had some live talk shows. And I remember listening one day and heard Bill Bragg talking about the fact that he was going to have his standard Friday night show with Walden Hughes, it would start at nine o'clock. I had no idea who Walden was at the time. And the problem is, nine o'clock was on the in Pacific Time, and it was, I think, Midnight in New Jersey time, as I recall the way it went anyway, it was way too late for me to be up. And so I never did hear Walden on yesterday USA, or I may have actually listened. Just stayed up to listen to one and fell asleep, but the show, the whole innovative process of playing radio all the time on the internet, was intriguing and just opened so many opportunities, I think. And of course, the internet brought all that around. And now there are any number of stations that stream all the time. And Bill Bragg passed away. What in 2016   Walden Hughes ** 46:15 2018   Michael Hingson ** 46:18 1819 2019 Yeah. And Walden now is the person who directs, operates, and is the manager of yesterday USA. And so when I go ahead,   Walden Hughes ** 46:30 it's fascinating. In the height of the station, there was 15,000 internet radio stations out there in 2000 they did a survey yesterday, USA was number three in the world, behind the BBC and CNN, which I thought was a pretty nice number to be concerned. We had no budget to promote, right? And the last time I saw the numbers been a couple years, we were number 44 in the world, which I don't think of, 15,000 radio stations. Not bad. No, not at all. You know, really not bad. But now there is more talk than there used to be, because Walden and the gasmans, who we had on years ago on this podcast, but   Michael Hingson ** 47:16 have interviewed a lot of people, and continue to interview people. And of course, so many people are passing on that. We're trying to talk to people as much as we can, as they can, and all of us now, because I've started to come a little bit and become a little bit involved in yesterday USA. And as Walden said on Friday night at 730 Pacific Time, see it's earlier, we we do a talk show. Bob Lyons, who did a lot of radio out here, and for 50 years, had a program called Don't touch that dial. And John and Larry and Walden and I get on the air and we talk about, Gosh, any number of different things. We've talked about Braille, we've talked about sometimes, everything but radio. But we talk about a lot of different things, which is, which is a lot of fun.   Walden Hughes ** 48:04 And I think it probably is, you know, in the old days, it would pretty much no entertainment, and Bill telling some stories and things like that. But with me, I always had a focus in interviews, but it's so much more fun to do radio as a co host. And that's when Patricia and I connected back in the 2007 I knew was in 2005 she's my co host. And Patricia didn't grow up with whole town radio. She became a fan after she found yesterday, USA into 2000 but she's a very articulate person, and so through the shows, what she and I did on Saturday night, the audience grab it and just we should talk about everything, and I just generate calls. I mean, when she and I were doing eight hours a night, we would average about 18 calls a night, which was pretty amazing, but we would cover the gamut, and I think a really good talk show host had to know a little bit about a lot of things. Yes, he got it. You got to be flexible. And Patricia and I compliment each other that way, that we're able to cover history and politics and music and just everything. And so when I do a show with her, you never know what direction we go with where. When I'm with John Roy, it's more radio centric. So it depends on what night a week people tune in, is what you're going to   Michael Hingson ** 49:40 get. And Walden has Patricia on now Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays, but we know why she's really on there, because she likes hearing Perry Como song Patricia that starts out every show Walden plays that he's in love with Patricia. One of these days, there's still the possibility. But anyway, we. We, he, we love it when he, he has Patricia on, and it's every week. So, so it is really cool. And they do, they talk about everything under the sun, which is so fascinating. Tell us about Johnny and Helen Holmes.   Walden Hughes ** 50:15 Ah, well, it's an interesting story. I I say the second biggest old time radio station in the country, after yesterday USA. It's about half the size in terms of audience basis. Radio once more, and you can find them at Radio once more.com and they do a good job. No else with probably yesterday USA branch offers own internet radio station, and he found he would go to the east coast to the nostalgic convention, and he connected with Johnny and Helen. Holmes and Johnny and Helen are people who love to attend nostalgic convention and get autographs and things. And they became really friends. So Neil convinced them, why don't you come on? Just come on radio once more. And so after a while, they do the presentation the coffee shop. Neil convinced them to take it, take it to the air, and they started to have their own show, and I was aware of them, and I produced the spirback convention, 2017 in Las Vegas. So Johnny helm came to the convention, and Johnny wanted to say hi to me. I said, I know who you are. I think he was for by that that I knew who he was, but I invited Johnny and Helen to come on with Patricia and I one night to talk about their coffee shop presentation and their show on Radio once more. And we just bonded very quickly and easy to bond with Johnny. They really are really fabulous people. He's really a generous guy, and so over the last six, seven years, we have developed a great friendship on you, and almost have created a whole subculture by itself, playing trivia with them. Every time they come on,   Michael Hingson ** 52:17 they do a lot of trivia stuff, and Johnny produces it very well. He really does a great job. And he'll put sound bites and clips and music, and it's gotten me such a major production with Johnny and Helen. And people look forward to it. I sometimes count the interaction people hanging out in the chat room, on the phone, email, about 18 to 20 people will get and get an answer question, was it amazing that that many people will be interested in trivia like that? But and, and Johnny also collects, well, I guess in Helen collect a lot of old television shows as well. Yep. So we won't hold it against him too much, but, but he does television and, well, I like old TV shows too, you bet. Well, so you know, you are, obviously, are doing a lot of different things. You mentioned spurred vac oop. They're after you. We'll wait. We'll wait till the phone die. You mentioned, well, I'll just ask this while that's going on. You mentioned spurred back. Tell us a little bit about what spurred vac is and what they've been doing and what they bring to radio.   Walden Hughes ** 53:23 Sprint vac started in 1974 it's the largest full time radio group in the country, called the society to preserve and encourage radio drama, variety and comedy. John Roy Gasman were two of the main driving force behind the club. It reached up to a membership of 1800 people, and they've honored over 500 people who worked in the golden days of radio and to speak at their meeting, come to the special conventions. And so I attended some dinners at the Brown Derby, which was a great thrill. I started attending their conventions, and it was just, it was wonderful. So I so I really got to meet a lot of the old time radio personality and become friends with Janet Waldo and June for a and people like that. And so I eventually got on the board. I eventually became one young, somewhat retired. I wound up being the activity person to book guests, and started producing conventions. And so that became a major part of my life, just producing those things for spur back and in other places, and I first started to do that for reps. Was it the Old Time Radio Group in Seattle in 2007 so they were actually the first convention I produced.   Michael Hingson ** 54:54 And rep says radio enthusiasts of Puget Sound,   Walden Hughes ** 54:57 right? Reps online.org, G and so I would produce new convention. I was helping super vac, and I also helping the Friends of all time radio back in New Jersey and so. And it probably helped my contact, which is 300 pages long, so, and I would book it. I would also contact celebrities via the mail, and my batting average was 20% which I thought were pretty good. I got Margaret. I got Margaret Truman. She called me, said, Walden, I got your order, and I forgot that I did the show with Jimmy Stewart. I'd be happy to come on talk about my memory. You know, she talked about Fred Allen on the big show, and how, how Mike Wallace had a temper, had a temper. She was a co host. Was among weekdays, which with the weekday version of monitor. Monitor was weekend and weekday, we see NBC. And so she was just fabulous, you know, so and I would get people like that 20% bad average, which was incredible. So I met, that's how it's up to two, my guess was, so I, I was sort of go to guy, find celebrities and booking them and and so in that help yesterday, USA helped the different conventions. And so it and so you're so you're booking the panels, and then you're coming up with ideas for radio recreations. And so I produce 37 of them, ranging from one day to four days. And I get counted, over the last 18 years, I've produced 226 audio theater plays with it. A lot at least, have an idea of how those things   Michael Hingson ** 56:55 work. So right now, speaking of recreations, and we're both involved in radio enthusiasts of Puget Sound, and for the last couple of years, I've participated in this. Walden has done radio recreations, and twice a year up in the Washington State area, where we bring in both some some amateurs and some professionals like Carolyn Grimes Zuzu and so many others who come in and we actually recreate old radio shows, both before a live audience, and we broadcast them on yesterday USA and other people like Margaret O'Brien who won   Walden Hughes ** 57:46 Gigi Powell coming this year. Phil Proctor. David Osmond from fire sign theater. Chuck Dougherty from Sergeant Preston. John Provo from Timmy from Lassie, Bill Johnson, who does a one man show on Bob Hope. Bill Ratner from GI Joe. Bill Owen, the who might have had he is the author of The Big broadcast, Ivan Troy who Bobby Benson, Tommy cook from the life O'Reilly Gigi parole, a movie actress of the 50s, as you mentioned, Carolyn grime, Beverly Washburn and others, and it's just the radio folks are really down to earth, really nice people, and you get to break bread with them, talk to them and reminisce about what was it like doing that radio show, this movie, or that TV show, and then They still got it, and they can perform on stage,   Michael Hingson ** 58:43 and they love to talk about it, and they love to interact with people who treat them as people. And so yeah, it is a lot of fun to be able to do it. In fact, I was on Carolyn Grimes podcast, which will be coming out at some point in the next little while, and Carolyn is going to be on unstoppable mindset. So keep an eye out for that. Bill Owens program is coming out soon. Bill and I did a conversation for unstoppable mindset, and we're going to be doing Bill Johnson will be coming on, and other people will be coming on. Walden has been very helpful at finding some of these folks who are willing to come on and talk about what they did, and to help us celebrate this medium that is just as much a part of history as anything in America and is just as worth listening to as it ever was. There is more to life than television, no matter what they think.   Walden Hughes ** 59:40 And also, we do a Christmas thing too. And hopefully Mike, if his speaking engagement allow him, will be with us up at Christmas saying, Well, I will. I'm planning on it. We're gonna do, It's a Wonderful Life. Keith Scott, coming over from Australia, who's a he's the rich little of Australia. And we'll do, It's a Wonderful Life. We'll do. The Christmas Carol, milk on 34th Street film again, Molly Jack Benny will have a great time.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:07 These are all going to be recreations using the the original scripts from the shows, and that's what makes them fun. And for those of us who don't read print, we do have our scripts in Braille, absolutely so that's kind of fun. Well, Walden, this has been absolutely wonderful. We're going to have to do it some more. Maybe we need to get you, John and Larry all together on that. That might be kind of fun. But I really, I don't think we need a host if you that. No, no, we just, you know, just go on. But this has been really fun. I really enjoy it. If people want to reach out to you, how do they do that?   Walden Hughes ** 1:00:45 Oh, I think they can call my studio number 714-545-2071, I'm in California, or they can email me at Walden shoes at yesterday, usa.com, W, A, l, D, E, N, H, U, C, H, E, S at, y, E, S T, E, R, D, A, y, u, s a.com, I'm the president of radio enthusiast sound, that's reps online.org or on the board of Sper back, which is S, P, E, R, D, V, A, c.com, so while waiting shakes me down, when   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:25 will the showcase actually occur up in Bellevue in Washington?   Walden Hughes ** 1:01:30 That will be September 18, 19 20/21, and then our Christmas one is will be Friday, December five, and Saturday, December the sixth. And then we're also going back and spir back, and I bet we'll see you there. We're going to go back to the Troy Blossom Festival next April, 23 to 26 and we'll know, are we set up to do that now? Yep, looks like that gonna happen? Yeah? Oh, good, yeah. So kick out the phone with Nicholas here a few days ago. So everything's gonna go for that, so that will be good.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:03 Yeah, we will do that. That's cool. Well, thank you for being here, and I want to thank you all for listening. I hope you had fun. This is a little different than a lot of the episodes that we've done, but it's, I think, important and enlightening to hear about this medium into to meet people from it. So thank you for listening wherever you are. We hope that you'll give us a five star review of unstoppable mindset wherever you're listening or watching. Please do that. We'd love to hear from you. You can reach me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and you can also go to our podcast page if you don't find podcasts any other way. Michael hingson.com/podcast, that's m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O, n.com/podcast, singular. So thanks again for being here and for listening to the show, and Walden, once again, I want to thank you for being here. This has been great.   Walden Hughes ** 1:03:01 Thank you, Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:07 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Folge 254 der "kleinen" Zeitreise in die Welt vergangener Homecomputer, Spielekonsolen und Games von Patrick und Robin ist online. Die Pretty Old Pixel Alexander und Selmar haben sich entschlossen, ein Textadventure in den Mittelpunkt zu stellen - ZORK

Once again, the NYTimes crossword has delivered the perfect blend of joy and education in one neat bundle. The joy comes from, primarily, the theme -- which we will say no more about here, but we have plenty to say about it in the podcast. The education comes from clues like 69A, Yani ___, youngest pro golfer to win five major championships, TSENG), and our absolute favorite, something that sounds like it came from the pen of Douglas Adams, 57A, Early PC game whose nonsense working title stuck, ZORK. We were also quite partial to 5A, Units equal to nine inches, SPANS.tldr; a terrific Simeon Seigel crossword, his streak of awesome Thursday crosswords remains unbroken!Show note imagery: The Argo, under full sailWe love feedback! Send us a text...Contact Info:We love listener mail! Drop us a line, crosswordpodcast@icloud.com.Also, we're on FaceBook, so feel free to drop by there and strike up a conversation!

A Sermon for the Seventh Sunday after Trinity Hosea 14:1-9 & Romans 6:19-23 by William Klock I've been reading a great book by an Oxford classicist named Teresa Morgan.  It's a study of the Greek and Latin words for faith and what they meant in the culture of the Greeks and Romans, the Jews, and in the early Church.  It's a fascinating read and as we were getting ready to go camping last Sunday afternoon I tossed it in my bag.  But then I stopped for a second, I panned across a wall of bookshelves, and my eyes settled on a copy of Ernest Cline's Ready Player One, which is—as far as I'm concerned—the ultimate novel written for Gen-X nerds who were born in the early Seventies and came of age in the Eighties.  It's a sci-fi novel built around references to things like the Atari 2600, Dungeons & Dragons, Zork, and Pac-Man.  I read it about ten years ago, but I decided to read it again this week with apologies to Dr. Morgan and her study of pistis and fides.  And I enjoyed it the second time as much as the first.  In the back of my mind, however, I was mulling over our Epistle from Romans 6 and how St. Paul writes about being slaves.  That meant that one particular part of the book kind of jumped out at me.  In the story there's an evil mega-corporation out to conquer and corrupt the virtual reality paradise where everyone in the future spends all their time.  And this evil corporation has its fingers in everything, which means it's easy to end up owing it money.  And when that happens, you're arrested and transported to headquarters where you become an indentured servant, slaving away at some menial and demeaning job until you die—because there's no way out. Between late fees, interest payments, charges for room and board and healthcare, your debt only grows, it never gets any smaller.  And Cline does a pretty good job of making it sound utterly miserable—at least to me—because it reminded me of my days as a Mac tech when I had to do phone support, which is an utterly miserable job.  But this book makes it ever more miserable: these indentured servants—slaves—did the phone support.  The description hits close to home in a lot of ways and it makes you—or at least me—want to shout out, “Let my people go!” But like I said, I also had Romans 6 percolating away in the back of my brain too and I was asking myself: Would I rather be a slave like the Israelites in Egypt, breaking my back to make bricks without straw under the hot Mediterranean sun or having my brain turn to mush doing non-stop tech support for Innovative Online Industries?  I don't know.  What I do know is that being delivered from either one of those slaveries would completely change my outlook on life, the universe, and everything. And that's just how it was for Israel.  The beginning of the Book of Exodus paints a bleak and desperate picture of Israel's turn of fortune—or, I should say, “providence” because, we learn as the story unfolds, the Lord was in control of the narrative all along.  Jacob and his family went down to Egypt as honoured guests of Pharaoh, but four hundred years later a new Pharaoh turned them into slaves, making bricks for his grand building projects.  Mixing mud and straw, filling moulds, baking them in the sun, then carrying those heavy loads of bricks to wherever they were needed.  All the time baking themselves in that hot sun, day in and day out.  Day in and day out with no rest.  Eating out of fleshpots—which sounds pretty awful all by itself. Put yourself in that place.  (Or doing phone support as a slave if that seems worse to you.)  And then imagine how you would feel after the Lord came and delivered you from that slavery.  And not just a simple jailbreak.  Consider how the Lord came first to Moses and his people and reminded them that he was their God, the one who had made promises to their fathers and who had been sovereign over all of this all along.  And the Lord then goes, through Moses, to Pharaoh.  Again, this isn't a secret jailbreak in the dead of night.  The Lord announced to the king, before his whole court, that Israel belonged to him, that Israel was his beloved son, and demanded Israel's release.  And then the showdown began.  The Lord sent ten plagues that exposed Pharaoh and his gods for the powerless frauds they really were.  Defeated, Pharaoh finally let them go, but that wasn't the end of it.  In one last ditch effort to recover his slaves and his dignity, Pharaoh went after the Israelites with his army and cornered them at the Red Sea.  Israel had escaped the frying pan only to land in the fire.  And then the Lord acted again.  He bared his mighty arm and parted the waters of the sea so that his people could pass through on dry land.  And when the Egyptian army tried to follow, the Lord drowned them all and left “mighty” Pharaoh, the greatest king on earth, powerless and pounding sand on the opposite shore. Again, it wasn't just a simple jailbreak under cover of darkness: You know, the Lord rescuing his people but with as little effort as possible.  To the contrary, he showed his faithfulness and his love towards his people, but he also showed his glory.  He brought the prison walls tumbling down in broad daylight for everyone to see.  He humbled the greatest king and the most powerful gods in the known world.  And he wasn't done.  That was just the first act.  From the Red Sea he led Isreal into the wilderness and fed her miraculously on manna and quail and water he caused to flow from a rock.  He met her at Mount Sinai and there he made a formal covenant with her.  “I will be your God and you will be my people.”  And he gave them his law, a new way of life that would separate them from all the other peoples of the earth.  They wouldn't just be the Lord's people.  The law would allow them to be the people who lived with the Lord in their midst.  A holy people, set apart.  And so they built a tabernacle as a place of meeting with him and the Lord's glory descended like a cloud to fill it.  And for a third act, the Lord led them into the land of Canaan and conquered it for them.  The Lord gave them cities they hadn't built; wells they hadn't dug; and fields and vineyards they hadn't planted.  All to show them his faithfulness, his love, his grace, and most of all his glory. The Lord made them the rescued-from-slavery people and every year they celebrated that identity and the great show of glory and faithfulness the Lord had made to make them that people.  Each year they gathered as families and ate the Passover and as they did that they remembered who they were and what the Lord had done for them.  And they were grateful.  They loved the Lord with all their heart and soul and mind and strength.  They loved their neighbours the way the Lord had loved them.  They were righteous—meaning that they love and obeyed his law.  His heart was their heart.  They worshipped him and him alone.  And, forget horses and chariots!  They trusted in the Lord who had shown the power of his mighty arm when he delivered them from slavery. Or so you might expect. But then you read the history of Israel and it's mostly the opposite.  They neglected the Passover and, not surprisingly, they forgot what the Lord had done for them.  They forgot his faithfulness.  They forgot his love.  They forgot his grace.  They forgot his glory.  They neglected his covenant and his law.  They worshipped other gods—the very gods defeated when the Lord conquered Canaan for them.  And instead of trusting in the Lord and his mighty arm, they trusted in horses and chariots and politics and intrigue and money. And that's where our Old Testament lessons comes into this.  The Lord sent the Prophet Hosea to the king and to the people of Israel with a message.  At this point the kingdom had split: Judah in the south and Israel in the north.  Judah was bad, but Israel was so bad they made Judah look like a goody-two-shoes.  And Hosea's ministry began with an acted-out prophecy.  The Lord told him to take a prostitute as his wife.  Hosea obeyed.  He married Gomer, a prostitute, probably from one of the pagan temples.  And he loved her and cared for her and he had children with her.  But repeatedly she left Hosea and returned to her life of prostitution.  And each time, his heart broken, Hosea would go out and find her and bring her back to his home and love her. Through the prophet the Lord was saying to his people: I am Hosea.  You're the prostitute.  I loved you.  I delivered you from Egypt.  I gave you a land that was not your own and I caused you to prosper in it.  I repeatedly defeated your enemies so that you could live at peace.  But over and over you've prostituted yourselves to foreign gods and foreign kings who have done nothing for you other than to lead you away from me, your true love.  Through the prophet the Lord stressed his faithfulness over against Israel's unfaithfulness. And so the Lord called to his people: Return, O Israel, to the Lord your God, for you have stumbled because of your iniquity. Take with you words and return to the Lord; say to him, “Take away all iniquity; accept what is good, and we will pay with bulls the vows of our lips. Assyria shall not save us; we will not ride on horses; and we will say no more, ‘Our God,' to the work of our hands. In you the orphan finds mercy.”   And the Lord promised: If they would do this.  If they would repent and return to him: I will heal their apostasy; I will love them freely, for my anger has turned from them. I will be like the dew to Israel; he shall blossom like the lily; he shall take root like the trees of Lebanon; his shoots shall spread out; his beauty shall be like the olive, and his fragrance like Lebanon. They shall return and dwell beneath my shadow; they shall flourish like the grain; they shall blossom like the vine; their fame shall be like the wine of Lebanon. But Israel had to leave off her idolatry.  It was not Baal or Asherah who delivered them from Egypt and caused them to prosper in the land.  It was the Lord. O Ephraim, what have I to do with idols? It is I who answer and look after you. I am like an evergreen cypress; from me comes your fruit. Whoever is wise, let him understand these things; whoever is discerning, let him know them; for the ways of the Lord are right, and the upright walk in them, but transgressors stumble in them. One way or another the Lord would heal their apostasy.  One way or another the people he had chosen as his own would reveal his glory before the watching nations.  Either they would be faithful to him and he would prosper them beyond measure or he would punish their unfaithfulness and let the nations destroy them. And if you've read the books of Kings and Chronicles and the Prophets you know that the latter is what happened.  Israel continued in her idolatry and was destroyed by the Assyrians, the tribes scattered and lost forever.  About a hundred years later the same thing happened to Judah, but it was Babylon that defeated the people and destroyed Jerusalem and the temple.  But in Judah's case, even though the people were exiled from the land, they kept their identity and were eventually allowed to return.  They rebuilt Jerusalem and the temple.  And, so far as the worship of pagan gods went, they'd learned their lesson.  Never again was that kind of raw idolatry a problem for the people of Judah.  And yet we've seen in some of our recent Gospel lessons that the people still failed to be faithful to the Lord.  Last Sunday we heard Jesus condemn the Pharisees—the most righteous, the most covenantally faithful people around.  Even they weren't as faithful and as righteous as they thought. Enter Jesus.  God himself, incarnate, became the faithful Israelite.  He perfectly submitted himself to the God of Israel, to his will, to his heart, to his law.  His righteousness—which, if you remember from last Sunday, means his faithfulness to God's covenant, was perfect.  And his fellow Jews killed him for it.  They got the Romans to crucify him on their behalf.  And that means that in Jesus, the son of God wasn't just incarnate as an Israelite, wasn't just the perfect Israelite in his covenant faithfulness, he even died the very death that the Israelites would face when the judgement he announced came to them a generation later.  He very literally died the death that their unfaithfulness deserved.  And just like Israel in Egypt, the fate of the son of God in Israel was all guided by providence.  The Lord knew what he was doing.  And in that, Jesus became a sacrifice for the sins of his people.  If they trusted in him as the Messiah he claimed to be, they found forgiveness of their sins. But that's not all.  The Lord also knew what he was doing in allowing sin and evil to concentrate themselves all in one place so that they could rise up and do their worst to Jesus.  It was Pharaoh and the gods of Egypt all over again.  If you know the story, you recognise that this how the Lord works.  In the same way he allowed Israel to become enslaved to the most powerful king in the world who had the most powerful gods in the world, so the Lord allowed Jesus to go to the cross where the most powerful forces in creation would kill him.  And he did it so that he could, once again, bare his mighty arm and raise Jesus back to life.  In doing that he not only overturned the false verdict against him in his sham trial, but more importantly, he defeated sin and death the same way he defeated Pharaoh and his gods. Jesus was leading his people in an exodus—the exodus—the exodus that the old one, the one that shaped them as a people, the one they remembered every year at Passover, was but a foretaste.  The old exodus happened so that the Lord could set a pattern and teach his people his loving and faithful character—so that he could prepare them for a future rescue, not just from a pagan king and his fake gods, but so that he could rescue them from sin and death.  Not to lead them into a land of milk and honey, but to lead them into his new creation—into a world finally set to rights, a world where they could live forever in his presence.  And as he did in that first exodus, so in the second, the Lord displayed his glory not just to his own people, but to the watching world.  And so Jesus didn't just make a new way of covenant faithfulness for his own people, he made it for everyone who would see the glory of the God of Israel at the cross and at the empty tomb.  For anyone who will trust that Jesus is Lord, who will trust that in his death and resurrection he has defeated sin and death, and who will pass through the waters of baptism to life with God—a life infused by God's own Spirit—on the other side.  A life of righteousness, of covenant faithfulness that exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees. Brothers and Sisters, that glory displayed at the cross and the empty tomb is what has drawn each of us.  It's faith in that glory and in the promise offered in our baptism that has taken us through those waters.  And yet, like Israel of old, that vision of God's glory and of his loving faithfulness somehow fades from our vision.  That vision of glory that once caused us, like the Israelites singing the Lord's praise on the shore of the Red Sea, to sing his praises ourselves, to joyfully proclaim the good news to the world, that motivated us covenant faithfulness—to a life of holiness—somehow it fades or maybe we just take our eyes off of it in the midst of our various trials and tribulations.  And we lose our passion for the Lord, for holiness, for proclaiming his gospel.  St. Paul saw it happening in the Roman church.  The old divisions between Jew and Gentile were creeping back in.  They were no longer pursuing holiness and gospel life the way they once had.  And so he reminds them in Romans 6: “But now you have been set free from sin and enslaved to God, you have fruit for holiness.  Its destination is the life of the age to come.  The wages of sin, you see, are death; but God's free gift is the life of the age to come, in the Messiah, Jesus our Lord.”   Brothers and Sisters, we need to be reminded of the glorious thing that God has done for us in Jesus.  We were slaves to sin and death.  We had no hope.  But then we heard the story—the good news—about the mighty and glorious God of Israel, how he gave his son to die to redeem his people from their sins, how he raised him from death, and how his new creation has begun in this new people.  How he's poured out his Spirit on them and made them a temple and a foretaste of the life and the world to come.  A free gift.  God's amazing gracious grace.  And we believed and with joy we jumped into the waters of baptism.  We left Pharaoh—we left sin and death—pounding sand over another escapee—and we met Jesus on the other side.  And he filled us with his Spirit.  And we set out with him to the promised land, to the New Jerusalem, to the life of the age to come.  But somewhere along the way the joy and enthusiasm faded.  We began to trade holiness for sin.  We began to lag behind Jesus along the way, and began to look longingly at our old gods.  We became apathetic about the gospel, about the good news that had once so captivated us. Brothers and Sisters, come to the Lord's Table this morning and be renewed.  This is our Passover meal in which we recall the mighty saving deeds of our faithful, loving, gracious and glorious God.  This is the meal that reminds us we were once hopelessly enslaved to sin and death, but that the God of all creation loves us so much that he gave his own and only son to die on our behalf.  Remember that in him our sins have been forgiven.  And remember that this meal is also God's future, pulled into the present.  It's a reminder that death no longer has a hold on us, because in rising from the grave, Jesus defeated death as thoroughly as he defeated sin.  The bread and wine here at the Table are a reminder of what God has done for us in Jesus and they are a reminder of the hope—the new world and the new life—that lies before us because we have trusted him. Let's pray: Lord of all power and might, the author and giver of all good things:  Graft in our hearts the love of your Name; increase in us true religion; nourish us with all goodness; and bring forth in us the fruit of good works; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.  Amen.

Stream/Buy: https://fanlink.tv/GR377 Sisko Electrofanatik returns to his label, Gain Records, with the release of his new 15-track techno album, 'Starboy' in celebration of his 20-year career. This is Sisko Electrofanatik's first album, and it's a dynamic selection that showcases the Italian techno maestro at his very best. The album orientates around the peak time techno style that is trademark to his sound, while also embracing styles including progressive, electro, downtempo, raw and acid. Based in Rome, Sisko Electrofanatik first broke onto the scene two decades ago when he was a regular feature of Carl Cox's record label, Intec. His captivating use of melody, intelligent sample selection, and energising percussion, have made him one of techno's most esteemed producers. His music is regularly set listed by techno's most iconic DJs, and he has been signed to prestigious record labels including Alan Fitzpatrick's We Are The Brave, Monika Kruse's Terminal M, Spartaque's Codex, and many others of equal calibre. Gain Records is Sisko Electrofanatik's own record label, and it's a globally respected imprint that regularly places inside of Beatport's Top 100 sales chart. It has a forward-thinking and innovative reputation, and Sisko Electrofanatik regularly uses it as a platform to release his own music. Carl Cox has already supported tracks off this album in his DJ sets, such as the final track, "Alter Ego." The album is a dynamic selection that sets the scene with the dystopian pads and suspense building acid of, "Starboy." The album then gets the listener locked in with the uplifting pads and hulking bass of, "Thrust." "Ziggurath" is dark and brooding with it's throbbing bassline and electrifying lead synth. The next two tracks, "Syntagma," and "Zork," continue on the same peak time vibe, then "Opale" has a raw and hypnotic groove. The seventh track, "Get Lost" features the voice of Lory who is a singer from Rome, and it's a melodic techno track with an emotive vocal. "Ad Astra" picks up the pace again with its dark and hammering groove. "Elements' featuring Leah Rose keeps the dark atmosphere, but has an extended breakdown with a powerful vocal. Track ten is the downtempo "Acidland," which is a trippy slice of electronica with acid synths and cinematic pads. "Imnot" lifts the intensity with its high-octane groove and dubby pads, then "Diapason" is a deep minimal track with house influences. "Supernatural" brings things back to peak time, then the tense pads of "Fable" is the penultimate track, before "Alter Ego" closes the release with its hypnotic flow. - - - - - - Produced by Sisko Electrofanatik Recorded, mixed and mastered by Francesco Fortuna at Gain Studio (Rome) Additional vocal recordings by Lorena Micagli aka Lory at Lrs Factory (Rome) and Leah Rose Wilding aka Leah Rose (London) Photo by Marino Festuccia Artwork by F.Fortuna Art&Design Special thanks to all my Family, friends, collaborators, supporters and Stefano SDG. ©️ 2025 Gain Records | Gain Plus www.gainrecords.com #SuperTechno #WeAreWhatWePlay #Dreamtechno

Stream/Buy: https://fanlink.tv/GR377 Sisko Electrofanatik returns to his label, Gain Records, with the release of his new 15-track techno album, 'Starboy' in celebration of his 20-year career. This is Sisko Electrofanatik's first album, and it's a dynamic selection that showcases the Italian techno maestro at his very best. The album orientates around the peak time techno style that is trademark to his sound, while also embracing styles including progressive, electro, downtempo, raw and acid. Based in Rome, Sisko Electrofanatik first broke onto the scene two decades ago when he was a regular feature of Carl Cox's record label, Intec. His captivating use of melody, intelligent sample selection, and energising percussion, have made him one of techno's most esteemed producers. His music is regularly set listed by techno's most iconic DJs, and he has been signed to prestigious record labels including Alan Fitzpatrick's We Are The Brave, Monika Kruse's Terminal M, Spartaque's Codex, and many others of equal calibre. Gain Records is Sisko Electrofanatik's own record label, and it's a globally respected imprint that regularly places inside of Beatport's Top 100 sales chart. It has a forward-thinking and innovative reputation, and Sisko Electrofanatik regularly uses it as a platform to release his own music. Carl Cox has already supported tracks off this album in his DJ sets, such as the final track, "Alter Ego." The album is a dynamic selection that sets the scene with the dystopian pads and suspense building acid of, "Starboy." The album then gets the listener locked in with the uplifting pads and hulking bass of, "Thrust." "Ziggurath" is dark and brooding with it's throbbing bassline and electrifying lead synth. The next two tracks, "Syntagma," and "Zork," continue on the same peak time vibe, then "Opale" has a raw and hypnotic groove. The seventh track, "Get Lost" features the voice of Lory who is a singer from Rome, and it's a melodic techno track with an emotive vocal. "Ad Astra" picks up the pace again with its dark and hammering groove. "Elements' featuring Leah Rose keeps the dark atmosphere, but has an extended breakdown with a powerful vocal. Track ten is the downtempo "Acidland," which is a trippy slice of electronica with acid synths and cinematic pads. "Imnot" lifts the intensity with its high-octane groove and dubby pads, then "Diapason" is a deep minimal track with house influences. "Supernatural" brings things back to peak time, then the tense pads of "Fable" is the penultimate track, before "Alter Ego" closes the release with its hypnotic flow. - - - - - - Produced by Sisko Electrofanatik Recorded, mixed and mastered by Francesco Fortuna at Gain Studio (Rome) Additional vocal recordings by Lorena Micagli aka Lory at Lrs Factory (Rome) and Leah Rose Wilding aka Leah Rose (London) Photo by Marino Festuccia Artwork by F.Fortuna Art&Design Special thanks to all my Family, friends, collaborators, supporters and Stefano SDG. ©️ 2025 Gain Records | Gain Plus www.gainrecords.com #SuperTechno #WeAreWhatWePlay #Dreamtechno

Stream/Buy: https://fanlink.tv/GR377 Sisko Electrofanatik returns to his label, Gain Records, with the release of his new 15-track techno album, 'Starboy' in celebration of his 20-year career. This is Sisko Electrofanatik's first album, and it's a dynamic selection that showcases the Italian techno maestro at his very best. The album orientates around the peak time techno style that is trademark to his sound, while also embracing styles including progressive, electro, downtempo, raw and acid. Based in Rome, Sisko Electrofanatik first broke onto the scene two decades ago when he was a regular feature of Carl Cox's record label, Intec. His captivating use of melody, intelligent sample selection, and energising percussion, have made him one of techno's most esteemed producers. His music is regularly set listed by techno's most iconic DJs, and he has been signed to prestigious record labels including Alan Fitzpatrick's We Are The Brave, Monika Kruse's Terminal M, Spartaque's Codex, and many others of equal calibre. Gain Records is Sisko Electrofanatik's own record label, and it's a globally respected imprint that regularly places inside of Beatport's Top 100 sales chart. It has a forward-thinking and innovative reputation, and Sisko Electrofanatik regularly uses it as a platform to release his own music. Carl Cox has already supported tracks off this album in his DJ sets, such as the final track, "Alter Ego." The album is a dynamic selection that sets the scene with the dystopian pads and suspense building acid of, "Starboy." The album then gets the listener locked in with the uplifting pads and hulking bass of, "Thrust." "Ziggurath" is dark and brooding with it's throbbing bassline and electrifying lead synth. The next two tracks, "Syntagma," and "Zork," continue on the same peak time vibe, then "Opale" has a raw and hypnotic groove. The seventh track, "Get Lost" features the voice of Lory who is a singer from Rome, and it's a melodic techno track with an emotive vocal. "Ad Astra" picks up the pace again with its dark and hammering groove. "Elements' featuring Leah Rose keeps the dark atmosphere, but has an extended breakdown with a powerful vocal. Track ten is the downtempo "Acidland," which is a trippy slice of electronica with acid synths and cinematic pads. "Imnot" lifts the intensity with its high-octane groove and dubby pads, then "Diapason" is a deep minimal track with house influences. "Supernatural" brings things back to peak time, then the tense pads of "Fable" is the penultimate track, before "Alter Ego" closes the release with its hypnotic flow. - - - - - - Produced by Sisko Electrofanatik Recorded, mixed and mastered by Francesco Fortuna at Gain Studio (Rome) Additional vocal recordings by Lorena Micagli aka Lory at Lrs Factory (Rome) and Leah Rose Wilding aka Leah Rose (London) Photo by Marino Festuccia Artwork by F.Fortuna Art&Design Special thanks to all my Family, friends, collaborators, supporters and Stefano SDG. ©️ 2025 Gain Records | Gain Plus www.gainrecords.com #SuperTechno #WeAreWhatWePlay #Dreamtechno

Stream/Buy: https://fanlink.tv/GR377 Sisko Electrofanatik returns to his label, Gain Records, with the release of his new 15-track techno album, 'Starboy' in celebration of his 20-year career. This is Sisko Electrofanatik's first album, and it's a dynamic selection that showcases the Italian techno maestro at his very best. The album orientates around the peak time techno style that is trademark to his sound, while also embracing styles including progressive, electro, downtempo, raw and acid. Based in Rome, Sisko Electrofanatik first broke onto the scene two decades ago when he was a regular feature of Carl Cox's record label, Intec. His captivating use of melody, intelligent sample selection, and energising percussion, have made him one of techno's most esteemed producers. His music is regularly set listed by techno's most iconic DJs, and he has been signed to prestigious record labels including Alan Fitzpatrick's We Are The Brave, Monika Kruse's Terminal M, Spartaque's Codex, and many others of equal calibre. Gain Records is Sisko Electrofanatik's own record label, and it's a globally respected imprint that regularly places inside of Beatport's Top 100 sales chart. It has a forward-thinking and innovative reputation, and Sisko Electrofanatik regularly uses it as a platform to release his own music. Carl Cox has already supported tracks off this album in his DJ sets, such as the final track, "Alter Ego." The album is a dynamic selection that sets the scene with the dystopian pads and suspense building acid of, "Starboy." The album then gets the listener locked in with the uplifting pads and hulking bass of, "Thrust." "Ziggurath" is dark and brooding with it's throbbing bassline and electrifying lead synth. The next two tracks, "Syntagma," and "Zork," continue on the same peak time vibe, then "Opale" has a raw and hypnotic groove. The seventh track, "Get Lost" features the voice of Lory who is a singer from Rome, and it's a melodic techno track with an emotive vocal. "Ad Astra" picks up the pace again with its dark and hammering groove. "Elements' featuring Leah Rose keeps the dark atmosphere, but has an extended breakdown with a powerful vocal. Track ten is the downtempo "Acidland," which is a trippy slice of electronica with acid synths and cinematic pads. "Imnot" lifts the intensity with its high-octane groove and dubby pads, then "Diapason" is a deep minimal track with house influences. "Supernatural" brings things back to peak time, then the tense pads of "Fable" is the penultimate track, before "Alter Ego" closes the release with its hypnotic flow. - - - - - - Produced by Sisko Electrofanatik Recorded, mixed and mastered by Francesco Fortuna at Gain Studio (Rome) Additional vocal recordings by Lorena Micagli aka Lory at Lrs Factory (Rome) and Leah Rose Wilding aka Leah Rose (London) Photo by Marino Festuccia Artwork by F.Fortuna Art&Design Special thanks to all my Family, friends, collaborators, supporters and Stefano SDG. ©️ 2025 Gain Records | Gain Plus www.gainrecords.com #SuperTechno #WeAreWhatWePlay #Dreamtechno

Stream/Buy: https://fanlink.tv/GR377 Sisko Electrofanatik returns to his label, Gain Records, with the release of his new 15-track techno album, 'Starboy' in celebration of his 20-year career. This is Sisko Electrofanatik's first album, and it's a dynamic selection that showcases the Italian techno maestro at his very best. The album orientates around the peak time techno style that is trademark to his sound, while also embracing styles including progressive, electro, downtempo, raw and acid. Based in Rome, Sisko Electrofanatik first broke onto the scene two decades ago when he was a regular feature of Carl Cox's record label, Intec. His captivating use of melody, intelligent sample selection, and energising percussion, have made him one of techno's most esteemed producers. His music is regularly set listed by techno's most iconic DJs, and he has been signed to prestigious record labels including Alan Fitzpatrick's We Are The Brave, Monika Kruse's Terminal M, Spartaque's Codex, and many others of equal calibre. Gain Records is Sisko Electrofanatik's own record label, and it's a globally respected imprint that regularly places inside of Beatport's Top 100 sales chart. It has a forward-thinking and innovative reputation, and Sisko Electrofanatik regularly uses it as a platform to release his own music. Carl Cox has already supported tracks off this album in his DJ sets, such as the final track, "Alter Ego." The album is a dynamic selection that sets the scene with the dystopian pads and suspense building acid of, "Starboy." The album then gets the listener locked in with the uplifting pads and hulking bass of, "Thrust." "Ziggurath" is dark and brooding with it's throbbing bassline and electrifying lead synth. The next two tracks, "Syntagma," and "Zork," continue on the same peak time vibe, then "Opale" has a raw and hypnotic groove. The seventh track, "Get Lost" features the voice of Lory who is a singer from Rome, and it's a melodic techno track with an emotive vocal. "Ad Astra" picks up the pace again with its dark and hammering groove. "Elements' featuring Leah Rose keeps the dark atmosphere, but has an extended breakdown with a powerful vocal. Track ten is the downtempo "Acidland," which is a trippy slice of electronica with acid synths and cinematic pads. "Imnot" lifts the intensity with its high-octane groove and dubby pads, then "Diapason" is a deep minimal track with house influences. "Supernatural" brings things back to peak time, then the tense pads of "Fable" is the penultimate track, before "Alter Ego" closes the release with its hypnotic flow. - - - - - - Produced by Sisko Electrofanatik Recorded, mixed and mastered by Francesco Fortuna at Gain Studio (Rome) Additional vocal recordings by Lorena Micagli aka Lory at Lrs Factory (Rome) and Leah Rose Wilding aka Leah Rose (London) Photo by Marino Festuccia Artwork by F.Fortuna Art&Design Special thanks to all my Family, friends, collaborators, supporters and Stefano SDG. ©️ 2025 Gain Records | Gain Plus www.gainrecords.com #SuperTechno #WeAreWhatWePlay #Dreamtechno

Stream/Buy: https://fanlink.tv/GR377 Sisko Electrofanatik returns to his label, Gain Records, with the release of his new 15-track techno album, 'Starboy' in celebration of his 20-year career. This is Sisko Electrofanatik's first album, and it's a dynamic selection that showcases the Italian techno maestro at his very best. The album orientates around the peak time techno style that is trademark to his sound, while also embracing styles including progressive, electro, downtempo, raw and acid. Based in Rome, Sisko Electrofanatik first broke onto the scene two decades ago when he was a regular feature of Carl Cox's record label, Intec. His captivating use of melody, intelligent sample selection, and energising percussion, have made him one of techno's most esteemed producers. His music is regularly set listed by techno's most iconic DJs, and he has been signed to prestigious record labels including Alan Fitzpatrick's We Are The Brave, Monika Kruse's Terminal M, Spartaque's Codex, and many others of equal calibre. Gain Records is Sisko Electrofanatik's own record label, and it's a globally respected imprint that regularly places inside of Beatport's Top 100 sales chart. It has a forward-thinking and innovative reputation, and Sisko Electrofanatik regularly uses it as a platform to release his own music. Carl Cox has already supported tracks off this album in his DJ sets, such as the final track, "Alter Ego." The album is a dynamic selection that sets the scene with the dystopian pads and suspense building acid of, "Starboy." The album then gets the listener locked in with the uplifting pads and hulking bass of, "Thrust." "Ziggurath" is dark and brooding with it's throbbing bassline and electrifying lead synth. The next two tracks, "Syntagma," and "Zork," continue on the same peak time vibe, then "Opale" has a raw and hypnotic groove. The seventh track, "Get Lost" features the voice of Lory who is a singer from Rome, and it's a melodic techno track with an emotive vocal. "Ad Astra" picks up the pace again with its dark and hammering groove. "Elements' featuring Leah Rose keeps the dark atmosphere, but has an extended breakdown with a powerful vocal. Track ten is the downtempo "Acidland," which is a trippy slice of electronica with acid synths and cinematic pads. "Imnot" lifts the intensity with its high-octane groove and dubby pads, then "Diapason" is a deep minimal track with house influences. "Supernatural" brings things back to peak time, then the tense pads of "Fable" is the penultimate track, before "Alter Ego" closes the release with its hypnotic flow. - - - - - - Produced by Sisko Electrofanatik Recorded, mixed and mastered by Francesco Fortuna at Gain Studio (Rome) Additional vocal recordings by Lorena Micagli aka Lory at Lrs Factory (Rome) and Leah Rose Wilding aka Leah Rose (London) Photo by Marino Festuccia Artwork by F.Fortuna Art&Design Special thanks to all my Family, friends, collaborators, supporters and Stefano SDG. ©️ 2025 Gain Records | Gain Plus www.gainrecords.com #SuperTechno #WeAreWhatWePlay #Dreamtechno

Stream/Buy: https://fanlink.tv/GR377 Sisko Electrofanatik returns to his label, Gain Records, with the release of his new 15-track techno album, 'Starboy' in celebration of his 20-year career. This is Sisko Electrofanatik's first album, and it's a dynamic selection that showcases the Italian techno maestro at his very best. The album orientates around the peak time techno style that is trademark to his sound, while also embracing styles including progressive, electro, downtempo, raw and acid. Based in Rome, Sisko Electrofanatik first broke onto the scene two decades ago when he was a regular feature of Carl Cox's record label, Intec. His captivating use of melody, intelligent sample selection, and energising percussion, have made him one of techno's most esteemed producers. His music is regularly set listed by techno's most iconic DJs, and he has been signed to prestigious record labels including Alan Fitzpatrick's We Are The Brave, Monika Kruse's Terminal M, Spartaque's Codex, and many others of equal calibre. Gain Records is Sisko Electrofanatik's own record label, and it's a globally respected imprint that regularly places inside of Beatport's Top 100 sales chart. It has a forward-thinking and innovative reputation, and Sisko Electrofanatik regularly uses it as a platform to release his own music. Carl Cox has already supported tracks off this album in his DJ sets, such as the final track, "Alter Ego." The album is a dynamic selection that sets the scene with the dystopian pads and suspense building acid of, "Starboy." The album then gets the listener locked in with the uplifting pads and hulking bass of, "Thrust." "Ziggurath" is dark and brooding with it's throbbing bassline and electrifying lead synth. The next two tracks, "Syntagma," and "Zork," continue on the same peak time vibe, then "Opale" has a raw and hypnotic groove. The seventh track, "Get Lost" features the voice of Lory who is a singer from Rome, and it's a melodic techno track with an emotive vocal. "Ad Astra" picks up the pace again with its dark and hammering groove. "Elements' featuring Leah Rose keeps the dark atmosphere, but has an extended breakdown with a powerful vocal. Track ten is the downtempo "Acidland," which is a trippy slice of electronica with acid synths and cinematic pads. "Imnot" lifts the intensity with its high-octane groove and dubby pads, then "Diapason" is a deep minimal track with house influences. "Supernatural" brings things back to peak time, then the tense pads of "Fable" is the penultimate track, before "Alter Ego" closes the release with its hypnotic flow. - - - - - - Produced by Sisko Electrofanatik Recorded, mixed and mastered by Francesco Fortuna at Gain Studio (Rome) Additional vocal recordings by Lorena Micagli aka Lory at Lrs Factory (Rome) and Leah Rose Wilding aka Leah Rose (London) Photo by Marino Festuccia Artwork by F.Fortuna Art&Design Special thanks to all my Family, friends, collaborators, supporters and Stefano SDG. ©️ 2025 Gain Records | Gain Plus www.gainrecords.com #SuperTechno #WeAreWhatWePlay #Dreamtechno

Stream/Buy: https://fanlink.tv/GR377 Sisko Electrofanatik returns to his label, Gain Records, with the release of his new 15-track techno album, 'Starboy' in celebration of his 20-year career. This is Sisko Electrofanatik's first album, and it's a dynamic selection that showcases the Italian techno maestro at his very best. The album orientates around the peak time techno style that is trademark to his sound, while also embracing styles including progressive, electro, downtempo, raw and acid. Based in Rome, Sisko Electrofanatik first broke onto the scene two decades ago when he was a regular feature of Carl Cox's record label, Intec. His captivating use of melody, intelligent sample selection, and energising percussion, have made him one of techno's most esteemed producers. His music is regularly set listed by techno's most iconic DJs, and he has been signed to prestigious record labels including Alan Fitzpatrick's We Are The Brave, Monika Kruse's Terminal M, Spartaque's Codex, and many others of equal calibre. Gain Records is Sisko Electrofanatik's own record label, and it's a globally respected imprint that regularly places inside of Beatport's Top 100 sales chart. It has a forward-thinking and innovative reputation, and Sisko Electrofanatik regularly uses it as a platform to release his own music. Carl Cox has already supported tracks off this album in his DJ sets, such as the final track, "Alter Ego." The album is a dynamic selection that sets the scene with the dystopian pads and suspense building acid of, "Starboy." The album then gets the listener locked in with the uplifting pads and hulking bass of, "Thrust." "Ziggurath" is dark and brooding with it's throbbing bassline and electrifying lead synth. The next two tracks, "Syntagma," and "Zork," continue on the same peak time vibe, then "Opale" has a raw and hypnotic groove. The seventh track, "Get Lost" features the voice of Lory who is a singer from Rome, and it's a melodic techno track with an emotive vocal. "Ad Astra" picks up the pace again with its dark and hammering groove. "Elements' featuring Leah Rose keeps the dark atmosphere, but has an extended breakdown with a powerful vocal. Track ten is the downtempo "Acidland," which is a trippy slice of electronica with acid synths and cinematic pads. "Imnot" lifts the intensity with its high-octane groove and dubby pads, then "Diapason" is a deep minimal track with house influences. "Supernatural" brings things back to peak time, then the tense pads of "Fable" is the penultimate track, before "Alter Ego" closes the release with its hypnotic flow. - - - - - - Produced by Sisko Electrofanatik Recorded, mixed and mastered by Francesco Fortuna at Gain Studio (Rome) Additional vocal recordings by Lorena Micagli aka Lory at Lrs Factory (Rome) and Leah Rose Wilding aka Leah Rose (London) Photo by Marino Festuccia Artwork by F.Fortuna Art&Design Special thanks to all my Family, friends, collaborators, supporters and Stefano SDG. ©️ 2025 Gain Records | Gain Plus www.gainrecords.com #SuperTechno #WeAreWhatWePlay #Dreamtechno

Stream/Buy: https://fanlink.tv/GR377 Sisko Electrofanatik returns to his label, Gain Records, with the release of his new 15-track techno album, 'Starboy' in celebration of his 20-year career. This is Sisko Electrofanatik's first album, and it's a dynamic selection that showcases the Italian techno maestro at his very best. The album orientates around the peak time techno style that is trademark to his sound, while also embracing styles including progressive, electro, downtempo, raw and acid. Based in Rome, Sisko Electrofanatik first broke onto the scene two decades ago when he was a regular feature of Carl Cox's record label, Intec. His captivating use of melody, intelligent sample selection, and energising percussion, have made him one of techno's most esteemed producers. His music is regularly set listed by techno's most iconic DJs, and he has been signed to prestigious record labels including Alan Fitzpatrick's We Are The Brave, Monika Kruse's Terminal M, Spartaque's Codex, and many others of equal calibre. Gain Records is Sisko Electrofanatik's own record label, and it's a globally respected imprint that regularly places inside of Beatport's Top 100 sales chart. It has a forward-thinking and innovative reputation, and Sisko Electrofanatik regularly uses it as a platform to release his own music. Carl Cox has already supported tracks off this album in his DJ sets, such as the final track, "Alter Ego." The album is a dynamic selection that sets the scene with the dystopian pads and suspense building acid of, "Starboy." The album then gets the listener locked in with the uplifting pads and hulking bass of, "Thrust." "Ziggurath" is dark and brooding with it's throbbing bassline and electrifying lead synth. The next two tracks, "Syntagma," and "Zork," continue on the same peak time vibe, then "Opale" has a raw and hypnotic groove. The seventh track, "Get Lost" features the voice of Lory who is a singer from Rome, and it's a melodic techno track with an emotive vocal. "Ad Astra" picks up the pace again with its dark and hammering groove. "Elements' featuring Leah Rose keeps the dark atmosphere, but has an extended breakdown with a powerful vocal. Track ten is the downtempo "Acidland," which is a trippy slice of electronica with acid synths and cinematic pads. "Imnot" lifts the intensity with its high-octane groove and dubby pads, then "Diapason" is a deep minimal track with house influences. "Supernatural" brings things back to peak time, then the tense pads of "Fable" is the penultimate track, before "Alter Ego" closes the release with its hypnotic flow. - - - - - - Produced by Sisko Electrofanatik Recorded, mixed and mastered by Francesco Fortuna at Gain Studio (Rome) Additional vocal recordings by Lorena Micagli aka Lory at Lrs Factory (Rome) and Leah Rose Wilding aka Leah Rose (London) Photo by Marino Festuccia Artwork by F.Fortuna Art&Design Special thanks to all my Family, friends, collaborators, supporters and Stefano SDG. ©️ 2025 Gain Records | Gain Plus www.gainrecords.com #SuperTechno #WeAreWhatWePlay #Dreamtechno

Stream/Buy: https://fanlink.tv/GR377 Sisko Electrofanatik returns to his label, Gain Records, with the release of his new 15-track techno album, 'Starboy' in celebration of his 20-year career. This is Sisko Electrofanatik's first album, and it's a dynamic selection that showcases the Italian techno maestro at his very best. The album orientates around the peak time techno style that is trademark to his sound, while also embracing styles including progressive, electro, downtempo, raw and acid. Based in Rome, Sisko Electrofanatik first broke onto the scene two decades ago when he was a regular feature of Carl Cox's record label, Intec. His captivating use of melody, intelligent sample selection, and energising percussion, have made him one of techno's most esteemed producers. His music is regularly set listed by techno's most iconic DJs, and he has been signed to prestigious record labels including Alan Fitzpatrick's We Are The Brave, Monika Kruse's Terminal M, Spartaque's Codex, and many others of equal calibre. Gain Records is Sisko Electrofanatik's own record label, and it's a globally respected imprint that regularly places inside of Beatport's Top 100 sales chart. It has a forward-thinking and innovative reputation, and Sisko Electrofanatik regularly uses it as a platform to release his own music. Carl Cox has already supported tracks off this album in his DJ sets, such as the final track, "Alter Ego." The album is a dynamic selection that sets the scene with the dystopian pads and suspense building acid of, "Starboy." The album then gets the listener locked in with the uplifting pads and hulking bass of, "Thrust." "Ziggurath" is dark and brooding with it's throbbing bassline and electrifying lead synth. The next two tracks, "Syntagma," and "Zork," continue on the same peak time vibe, then "Opale" has a raw and hypnotic groove. The seventh track, "Get Lost" features the voice of Lory who is a singer from Rome, and it's a melodic techno track with an emotive vocal. "Ad Astra" picks up the pace again with its dark and hammering groove. "Elements' featuring Leah Rose keeps the dark atmosphere, but has an extended breakdown with a powerful vocal. Track ten is the downtempo "Acidland," which is a trippy slice of electronica with acid synths and cinematic pads. "Imnot" lifts the intensity with its high-octane groove and dubby pads, then "Diapason" is a deep minimal track with house influences. "Supernatural" brings things back to peak time, then the tense pads of "Fable" is the penultimate track, before "Alter Ego" closes the release with its hypnotic flow. - - - - - - Produced by Sisko Electrofanatik Recorded, mixed and mastered by Francesco Fortuna at Gain Studio (Rome) Additional vocal recordings by Lorena Micagli aka Lory at Lrs Factory (Rome) and Leah Rose Wilding aka Leah Rose (London) Photo by Marino Festuccia Artwork by F.Fortuna Art&Design Special thanks to all my Family, friends, collaborators, supporters and Stefano SDG. ©️ 2025 Gain Records | Gain Plus www.gainrecords.com #SuperTechno #WeAreWhatWePlay #Dreamtechno

Stream/Buy: https://fanlink.tv/GR377 Sisko Electrofanatik returns to his label, Gain Records, with the release of his new 15-track techno album, 'Starboy' in celebration of his 20-year career. This is Sisko Electrofanatik's first album, and it's a dynamic selection that showcases the Italian techno maestro at his very best. The album orientates around the peak time techno style that is trademark to his sound, while also embracing styles including progressive, electro, downtempo, raw and acid. Based in Rome, Sisko Electrofanatik first broke onto the scene two decades ago when he was a regular feature of Carl Cox's record label, Intec. His captivating use of melody, intelligent sample selection, and energising percussion, have made him one of techno's most esteemed producers. His music is regularly set listed by techno's most iconic DJs, and he has been signed to prestigious record labels including Alan Fitzpatrick's We Are The Brave, Monika Kruse's Terminal M, Spartaque's Codex, and many others of equal calibre. Gain Records is Sisko Electrofanatik's own record label, and it's a globally respected imprint that regularly places inside of Beatport's Top 100 sales chart. It has a forward-thinking and innovative reputation, and Sisko Electrofanatik regularly uses it as a platform to release his own music. Carl Cox has already supported tracks off this album in his DJ sets, such as the final track, "Alter Ego." The album is a dynamic selection that sets the scene with the dystopian pads and suspense building acid of, "Starboy." The album then gets the listener locked in with the uplifting pads and hulking bass of, "Thrust." "Ziggurath" is dark and brooding with it's throbbing bassline and electrifying lead synth. The next two tracks, "Syntagma," and "Zork," continue on the same peak time vibe, then "Opale" has a raw and hypnotic groove. The seventh track, "Get Lost" features the voice of Lory who is a singer from Rome, and it's a melodic techno track with an emotive vocal. "Ad Astra" picks up the pace again with its dark and hammering groove. "Elements' featuring Leah Rose keeps the dark atmosphere, but has an extended breakdown with a powerful vocal. Track ten is the downtempo "Acidland," which is a trippy slice of electronica with acid synths and cinematic pads. "Imnot" lifts the intensity with its high-octane groove and dubby pads, then "Diapason" is a deep minimal track with house influences. "Supernatural" brings things back to peak time, then the tense pads of "Fable" is the penultimate track, before "Alter Ego" closes the release with its hypnotic flow. - - - - - - Produced by Sisko Electrofanatik Recorded, mixed and mastered by Francesco Fortuna at Gain Studio (Rome) Additional vocal recordings by Lorena Micagli aka Lory at Lrs Factory (Rome) and Leah Rose Wilding aka Leah Rose (London) Photo by Marino Festuccia Artwork by F.Fortuna Art&Design Special thanks to all my Family, friends, collaborators, supporters and Stefano SDG. ©️ 2025 Gain Records | Gain Plus www.gainrecords.com #SuperTechno #WeAreWhatWePlay #Dreamtechno

Stream/Buy: https://fanlink.tv/GR377 Sisko Electrofanatik returns to his label, Gain Records, with the release of his new 15-track techno album, 'Starboy' in celebration of his 20-year career. This is Sisko Electrofanatik's first album, and it's a dynamic selection that showcases the Italian techno maestro at his very best. The album orientates around the peak time techno style that is trademark to his sound, while also embracing styles including progressive, electro, downtempo, raw and acid. Based in Rome, Sisko Electrofanatik first broke onto the scene two decades ago when he was a regular feature of Carl Cox's record label, Intec. His captivating use of melody, intelligent sample selection, and energising percussion, have made him one of techno's most esteemed producers. His music is regularly set listed by techno's most iconic DJs, and he has been signed to prestigious record labels including Alan Fitzpatrick's We Are The Brave, Monika Kruse's Terminal M, Spartaque's Codex, and many others of equal calibre. Gain Records is Sisko Electrofanatik's own record label, and it's a globally respected imprint that regularly places inside of Beatport's Top 100 sales chart. It has a forward-thinking and innovative reputation, and Sisko Electrofanatik regularly uses it as a platform to release his own music. Carl Cox has already supported tracks off this album in his DJ sets, such as the final track, "Alter Ego." The album is a dynamic selection that sets the scene with the dystopian pads and suspense building acid of, "Starboy." The album then gets the listener locked in with the uplifting pads and hulking bass of, "Thrust." "Ziggurath" is dark and brooding with it's throbbing bassline and electrifying lead synth. The next two tracks, "Syntagma," and "Zork," continue on the same peak time vibe, then "Opale" has a raw and hypnotic groove. The seventh track, "Get Lost" features the voice of Lory who is a singer from Rome, and it's a melodic techno track with an emotive vocal. "Ad Astra" picks up the pace again with its dark and hammering groove. "Elements' featuring Leah Rose keeps the dark atmosphere, but has an extended breakdown with a powerful vocal. Track ten is the downtempo "Acidland," which is a trippy slice of electronica with acid synths and cinematic pads. "Imnot" lifts the intensity with its high-octane groove and dubby pads, then "Diapason" is a deep minimal track with house influences. "Supernatural" brings things back to peak time, then the tense pads of "Fable" is the penultimate track, before "Alter Ego" closes the release with its hypnotic flow. - - - - - - Produced by Sisko Electrofanatik Recorded, mixed and mastered by Francesco Fortuna at Gain Studio (Rome) Additional vocal recordings by Lorena Micagli aka Lory at Lrs Factory (Rome) and Leah Rose Wilding aka Leah Rose (London) Photo by Marino Festuccia Artwork by F.Fortuna Art&Design Special thanks to all my Family, friends, collaborators, supporters and Stefano SDG. ©️ 2025 Gain Records | Gain Plus www.gainrecords.com #SuperTechno #WeAreWhatWePlay #Dreamtechno

Stream/Buy: https://fanlink.tv/GR377 Sisko Electrofanatik returns to his label, Gain Records, with the release of his new 15-track techno album, 'Starboy' in celebration of his 20-year career. This is Sisko Electrofanatik's first album, and it's a dynamic selection that showcases the Italian techno maestro at his very best. The album orientates around the peak time techno style that is trademark to his sound, while also embracing styles including progressive, electro, downtempo, raw and acid. Based in Rome, Sisko Electrofanatik first broke onto the scene two decades ago when he was a regular feature of Carl Cox's record label, Intec. His captivating use of melody, intelligent sample selection, and energising percussion, have made him one of techno's most esteemed producers. His music is regularly set listed by techno's most iconic DJs, and he has been signed to prestigious record labels including Alan Fitzpatrick's We Are The Brave, Monika Kruse's Terminal M, Spartaque's Codex, and many others of equal calibre. Gain Records is Sisko Electrofanatik's own record label, and it's a globally respected imprint that regularly places inside of Beatport's Top 100 sales chart. It has a forward-thinking and innovative reputation, and Sisko Electrofanatik regularly uses it as a platform to release his own music. Carl Cox has already supported tracks off this album in his DJ sets, such as the final track, "Alter Ego." The album is a dynamic selection that sets the scene with the dystopian pads and suspense building acid of, "Starboy." The album then gets the listener locked in with the uplifting pads and hulking bass of, "Thrust." "Ziggurath" is dark and brooding with it's throbbing bassline and electrifying lead synth. The next two tracks, "Syntagma," and "Zork," continue on the same peak time vibe, then "Opale" has a raw and hypnotic groove. The seventh track, "Get Lost" features the voice of Lory who is a singer from Rome, and it's a melodic techno track with an emotive vocal. "Ad Astra" picks up the pace again with its dark and hammering groove. "Elements' featuring Leah Rose keeps the dark atmosphere, but has an extended breakdown with a powerful vocal. Track ten is the downtempo "Acidland," which is a trippy slice of electronica with acid synths and cinematic pads. "Imnot" lifts the intensity with its high-octane groove and dubby pads, then "Diapason" is a deep minimal track with house influences. "Supernatural" brings things back to peak time, then the tense pads of "Fable" is the penultimate track, before "Alter Ego" closes the release with its hypnotic flow. - - - - - - Produced by Sisko Electrofanatik Recorded, mixed and mastered by Francesco Fortuna at Gain Studio (Rome) Additional vocal recordings by Lorena Micagli aka Lory at Lrs Factory (Rome) and Leah Rose Wilding aka Leah Rose (London) Photo by Marino Festuccia Artwork by F.Fortuna Art&Design Special thanks to all my Family, friends, collaborators, supporters and Stefano SDG. ©️ 2025 Gain Records | Gain Plus www.gainrecords.com #SuperTechno #WeAreWhatWePlay #Dreamtechno

Stream/Buy: https://fanlink.tv/GR377 Sisko Electrofanatik returns to his label, Gain Records, with the release of his new 15-track techno album, 'Starboy' in celebration of his 20-year career. This is Sisko Electrofanatik's first album, and it's a dynamic selection that showcases the Italian techno maestro at his very best. The album orientates around the peak time techno style that is trademark to his sound, while also embracing styles including progressive, electro, downtempo, raw and acid. Based in Rome, Sisko Electrofanatik first broke onto the scene two decades ago when he was a regular feature of Carl Cox's record label, Intec. His captivating use of melody, intelligent sample selection, and energising percussion, have made him one of techno's most esteemed producers. His music is regularly set listed by techno's most iconic DJs, and he has been signed to prestigious record labels including Alan Fitzpatrick's We Are The Brave, Monika Kruse's Terminal M, Spartaque's Codex, and many others of equal calibre. Gain Records is Sisko Electrofanatik's own record label, and it's a globally respected imprint that regularly places inside of Beatport's Top 100 sales chart. It has a forward-thinking and innovative reputation, and Sisko Electrofanatik regularly uses it as a platform to release his own music. Carl Cox has already supported tracks off this album in his DJ sets, such as the final track, "Alter Ego." The album is a dynamic selection that sets the scene with the dystopian pads and suspense building acid of, "Starboy." The album then gets the listener locked in with the uplifting pads and hulking bass of, "Thrust." "Ziggurath" is dark and brooding with it's throbbing bassline and electrifying lead synth. The next two tracks, "Syntagma," and "Zork," continue on the same peak time vibe, then "Opale" has a raw and hypnotic groove. The seventh track, "Get Lost" features the voice of Lory who is a singer from Rome, and it's a melodic techno track with an emotive vocal. "Ad Astra" picks up the pace again with its dark and hammering groove. "Elements' featuring Leah Rose keeps the dark atmosphere, but has an extended breakdown with a powerful vocal. Track ten is the downtempo "Acidland," which is a trippy slice of electronica with acid synths and cinematic pads. "Imnot" lifts the intensity with its high-octane groove and dubby pads, then "Diapason" is a deep minimal track with house influences. "Supernatural" brings things back to peak time, then the tense pads of "Fable" is the penultimate track, before "Alter Ego" closes the release with its hypnotic flow. - - - - - - Produced by Sisko Electrofanatik Recorded, mixed and mastered by Francesco Fortuna at Gain Studio (Rome) Additional vocal recordings by Lorena Micagli aka Lory at Lrs Factory (Rome) and Leah Rose Wilding aka Leah Rose (London) Photo by Marino Festuccia Artwork by F.Fortuna Art&Design Special thanks to all my Family, friends, collaborators, supporters and Stefano SDG. ©️ 2025 Gain Records | Gain Plus www.gainrecords.com #SuperTechno #WeAreWhatWePlay #Dreamtechno

Stream/Buy: https://fanlink.tv/GR377 Sisko Electrofanatik returns to his label, Gain Records, with the release of his new 15-track techno album, 'Starboy' in celebration of his 20-year career. This is Sisko Electrofanatik's first album, and it's a dynamic selection that showcases the Italian techno maestro at his very best. The album orientates around the peak time techno style that is trademark to his sound, while also embracing styles including progressive, electro, downtempo, raw and acid. Based in Rome, Sisko Electrofanatik first broke onto the scene two decades ago when he was a regular feature of Carl Cox's record label, Intec. His captivating use of melody, intelligent sample selection, and energising percussion, have made him one of techno's most esteemed producers. His music is regularly set listed by techno's most iconic DJs, and he has been signed to prestigious record labels including Alan Fitzpatrick's We Are The Brave, Monika Kruse's Terminal M, Spartaque's Codex, and many others of equal calibre. Gain Records is Sisko Electrofanatik's own record label, and it's a globally respected imprint that regularly places inside of Beatport's Top 100 sales chart. It has a forward-thinking and innovative reputation, and Sisko Electrofanatik regularly uses it as a platform to release his own music. Carl Cox has already supported tracks off this album in his DJ sets, such as the final track, "Alter Ego." The album is a dynamic selection that sets the scene with the dystopian pads and suspense building acid of, "Starboy." The album then gets the listener locked in with the uplifting pads and hulking bass of, "Thrust." "Ziggurath" is dark and brooding with it's throbbing bassline and electrifying lead synth. The next two tracks, "Syntagma," and "Zork," continue on the same peak time vibe, then "Opale" has a raw and hypnotic groove. The seventh track, "Get Lost" features the voice of Lory who is a singer from Rome, and it's a melodic techno track with an emotive vocal. "Ad Astra" picks up the pace again with its dark and hammering groove. "Elements' featuring Leah Rose keeps the dark atmosphere, but has an extended breakdown with a powerful vocal. Track ten is the downtempo "Acidland," which is a trippy slice of electronica with acid synths and cinematic pads. "Imnot" lifts the intensity with its high-octane groove and dubby pads, then "Diapason" is a deep minimal track with house influences. "Supernatural" brings things back to peak time, then the tense pads of "Fable" is the penultimate track, before "Alter Ego" closes the release with its hypnotic flow. - - - - - - Produced by Sisko Electrofanatik Recorded, mixed and mastered by Francesco Fortuna at Gain Studio (Rome) Additional vocal recordings by Lorena Micagli aka Lory at Lrs Factory (Rome) and Leah Rose Wilding aka Leah Rose (London) Photo by Marino Festuccia Artwork by F.Fortuna Art&Design Special thanks to all my Family, friends, collaborators, supporters and Stefano SDG. ©️ 2025 Gain Records | Gain Plus www.gainrecords.com #SuperTechno #WeAreWhatWePlay #Dreamtechno

The above title does not do Dan Swift justice. Dan also has his own podcast, successful Youtube channel and he has released seven music albums. Talk about being unstoppable! I met Dan when I appeared as a guest on his podcast, Time We Discuss and I knew he would contribute to a fascinating story here.   Dan grew up with an interest in music. For a time he thought he wanted to write music for video games. Along the way he left that idea behind and after graduating from college he began working at designing websites. He has made that into his fulltime career.   As he grew as a website designer and later as a supervisor for a school system coordinating and creating the school sites Dan took an interest in accessibility of the web. We talk quite a bit about that during our time together. His observations are fascinating and right on where web access for persons with disabilities is concerned.   We also talk about Dan's podcast including some stories of guests and what inspires Dan from his interviews. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I.       About the Guest:   Originally wanting to write music for video games or become an audio engineer, Dan Swift graduated from a small Liberal Arts college with a degree in Music Composition (Bachelor of Arts) and Music Recording Technology (Bachelor of Music).  Dan went on to release seven EP albums between 2003 and 2024. Most recently, "Parallels" dropped on Leap Day, 2024.  Dan has always had a passion for shaking up genres between Eps writing classical, electronic, and modern rock music.   While creating music has always been a passion, Dan took a more traditional professional path as a web developer. While on this path, Dan had a lot of experience with accessibility standards as it relates to the web and he values accessibility and equity for everyone both inside and outside the digital workspace. Having received his MBA during COVID, Dan went on to a leadership position where he continues to make a difference leading a team of tech-savvy web professionals.   In early 2024, I created a podcast and YouTube channel called "Time We Discuss" which focuses on career exploration and discovery. The channel and podcast are meant for anyone that is feeling lost professionally and unsure of what is out there for them. Dan feels that it is important for people to discover their professional passion, whatever it is that lights them up on the inside, and chase it. So many people are unfulfilled in their careers, yet it doesn't have to be this way.   When not working, Dan enjoys spending time with his wife and three kids. They are a very active family often going to various extracurricular events over the years including flag football, soccer, gymnastics, and school concerts.  Dan's wife is very active with several nonprofit organizations including those for the betterment of children and homelessness.  Dan enjoys playing the piano, listening to podcasts, and listening to music.  Dan is very naturally curious and is a slave to a train of never-ending thoughts.   Ways to connect with Dan:   Time We Discuss on YouTube Time We Discuss on Spotify Time We Discuss on Twitter/X Time We Discuss on Instagram Time We Discuss on BlueSky   Time We Discuss Website Dan Swift Music Website   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everybody. Welcome once again. Wherever you may be, to unstoppable mindset, I am your host, Mike hingson, sometimes I say Michael hingson, and people have said, Well, is it Mike or Michael? And the answer is, it doesn't really matter. It took a master's degree in physics and 10 years in sales for me to realize that if I said Mike Hingson on the phone, people kept calling me Mr. Kingston, and I couldn't figure out why, so I started saying Michael Hingson, and they got the hinckson part right, but it doesn't matter to me. So anyway, Mike hingson, or Michael hingson, glad you're with us, wherever you are, and our guest today is Dan Swift, who has his own pine podcast, and it was actually through that podcast that we met, and I told him, but I wouldn't do it with him and be on his podcast unless he would be on unstoppable mindset. And here he is. Dan is a person who writes music, he's an engineer. He does a lot of work with web design and so on, and we're going to get into all that. So Dan, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Dan Swift ** 02:25 Michael, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. I am. I'm super excited.   Michael Hingson ** 02:30 Well, looking forward to getting to spend more time with you. We did yours time to discuss, and now we get this one. So it's always kind of fun. So, and Dan is in Pennsylvania, so we're talking across the continent, which is fine. It's amazing what we can do with electronics these days, telling us not like the good old days of the covered wagon. What can I say? So, So Dan, why don't you tell us a little bit about kind of the early Dan, growing up and all that.   Dan Swift ** 02:57 Oh, geez. How far   Michael Hingson ** 02:58 back to go? Oh, as far as you want to go,   Dan Swift ** 03:02 Well, okay, so I am, I am the youngest of five. Grew up just outside of Philadelphia as being the youngest. You know, there are certain perks that go along with that. I get to experience things that my parents would have previous said no to the older siblings. And you know how it is with with, you know, if you have more than one kid, technically, you get a little more relaxed as you have more but then I also had the other benefit of, you know, hearing the expression, there are young ears in the room, I will tell you later. So I kind of got some of that too. But I grew up outside of Philadelphia, had a passion for music. Pretty early on. I was never good at any sports. Tried a number of things. And when I landed on music, I thought, you know, this is this is something that I can do. I seem to have a natural talent for it. And I started, I tried playing the piano when I was maybe eight or nine years old. That didn't pan out. Moved on to the trumpet when I was nine or 10. Eventually ended up picking up guitar, bass, guitar, double bass revisited piano later in life, but that's the musical side of things. Also, when I was young, you know, I had a passion for role playing games, Dungeons and Dragons, was really big when I was a teenager, so I was super excited for that. Yeah, that's, that's kind of those, those memories kind of forced me, or kind of shaped me into the person that I am today. I'm very light hearted, very easy going, and I just try to enjoy life.   Michael Hingson ** 04:30 I played some computer games when computers came along and I started fiddling with them, the games I usually played were text based games. I've never really played Dungeons and Dragons and some of those. And I I'm sure that there are accessible versions of of some of that, but I remember playing games like adventure. You remember? Have you heard of adventure? I have, yeah. So that was, that was fun. Info con made. Well, they had Zork, which was really the same as adventure, but they. At a whole bunch of games. And those are, those are fun. And I think all of those games, I know a lot of adults would probably say kids spend too much time on some of them, but some of these games, like the the text based games, I thought really were very good at expanding one's mind, and they made you think, which is really what was important to me? Yeah, I   Dan Swift ** 05:21 completely agree with that too. Because you'd be put in these situations where, you know true, you're trying to solve some kind of puzzle, and you're trying to think, Okay, well, that didn't work, or that didn't work, and you try all these different things, then you decide to leave and come back to and you realize later, like you didn't have something that you needed to progress forward, or something like that. But, but it really gets the brain going, trying to create with these, uh, come up with these creative solutions to progress the game forward. Yeah, which   Michael Hingson ** 05:43 and the creative people who made them in the first place? What did they? Yeah, they, I don't know where they, where they spent their whole time that they had nothing to do but to create these games. But hey, it worked. It sure. Did you know you do it well. So you went off to college. Where'd you go? Sure,   Dan Swift ** 06:02 I went to a small liberal arts college, Lebanon Valley College in Pennsylvania. It's near, it's near Hershey. It was, it was weird in that my the entire school was about half the size of my entire high school. So that was very, very weird. And then you talk to these other people. And it's like, my high school was, you know, very large by comparison. But for me, it was like, well, high school, that's what I knew. But yeah, it was I went to, I went to 11 Valley College near Hershey. I studied, I was a double major. I studied music composition and music recording,   Michael Hingson ** 06:35 okay, and, oh, I've got to go back and ask before we continue that. So what were some of the real perks you got as a kid that your your older siblings didn't get?   Dan Swift ** 06:45 Oh, geez, okay. I mean,   Michael Hingson ** 06:49 couldn't resist, yeah, probably, probably   Dan Swift ** 06:51 some of the more cliche things. I probably got to spend the night at a friend's house earlier than my oldest brother. For instance, I know my parents were a little more concerned about finances. So I know my oldest brother didn't get a chance to go away to college. He did community college instead. And then, kind of, my sister was a very similar thing. And then once we got, like, about halfway down, you know, me and my two other brothers, we all had the opportunity to go away to college. So I think that was, that was definitely one of the perks. If I was the oldest, I was the oldest, I probably wouldn't have had that opportunity with my family. Got   Michael Hingson ** 07:24 it well, so you went off and you got a matt a bachelor's in music, composition and music recording. So that brought you to what you were interested in, part, which was the engineering aspect of it. But that certainly gave you a pretty well rounded education. Why those two why composition and recording? Sure.   Dan Swift ** 07:43 So if we talk about the music first at that time, so this is like the the late 90s, early 2000s any kind of digital music that was out there really was, was MIDI based, and anyone that was around that time and paying attention, it was like these very like, like that music kind of sound to it. So there wasn't a whole lot going on with MIDI. I'm sorry, with music as far as how great it sounded, or I shouldn't say, how great it sounded, the the instruments that are triggered by MIDI, they didn't sound all that great. But around that time, there was this game that came out, Final Fantasy seven, and I remember hearing the music for that, and it was all, it was all electronic, and it was just blown away by how fantastic it sounded. And And around that time, I thought, you know, it'd be really cool to get into writing music for video games. And that was something I really kind of toyed with. So that was kind of in the back of my head. But also, at the time, I was in a band, like a rock band, and I thought, you know, I'm going to school. They have this opportunity to work as a music engineer, which is something I really wanted to do at the time. And I thought, free studio time. My band will be here. This will be awesome. And it wasn't until I got there that I discovered that they also had the music composition program. It was a I was only there maybe a week or two, and once I discovered that, I was like, Well, this is gonna be great, you know, I'll learn to write. Know, I'll learn to write music. I can write for video games. I'll get engineering to go with it. This is gonna be fantastic. Speaking   Michael Hingson ** 09:07 of electronic music, did you ever see a science fiction movie called The Forbidden Planet? I did not. Oh, it's music. It's, it's not really music in the sense of what what we call, but it's all electronic. You gotta, you gotta find it. I'm sure you can find it somewhere. It's called the Forbidden Planet. Walter pigeon is in it. But the music and the sounds fit the movie, although it's all electronic, and electronic sounding pretty interesting.   Dan Swift ** 09:37 Now, is that from, I know, like in the 50s, 60s, there was a lot of experiments. Okay, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 09:45 yeah, and, but again, it fit the movie, which was the important part. So it certainly wasn't music like John Williams today and and in the 80s and all that. But again, for the movie, it fit. Very well, which is kind of cool. Yeah,   Dan Swift ** 10:02 I'll definitely have to check that out. I remember when I was in school, we talked about like that, that avant garde kind of style of the the 50s, 60s. And there was a lot of weird stuff going on with electronics, electronic music. Um, so I'm very curious to see, uh, to check this out, yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 10:14 You have to let me know what, what you find, what you think about it, when you get to chance to watch it, absolutely or actually, I I may have a copy. If I do, I'll put it in a dropbox folder and send you a link. Fantastic. So you graduated. Now, when did you graduate?   Dan Swift ** 10:32 Sure, so I graduated in 2003 okay,   Michael Hingson ** 10:35 so you graduated, and then what did you do? So,   Dan Swift ** 10:41 backing up about maybe 612, months prior to that, I decided I did not want to be a I didn't want to write music for video games. I also did not want to work in a recording studio. And the reason for this was for music. It was, I didn't it was, it was something I really, really enjoyed, and I didn't want to be put in a position where I had to produce music on demand. I didn't want to I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to lose my hobby, lose my passion in that way. So I decided that was out. And then also, when it came to working in a studio, if I wanted to be the engineer that I really wanted to be, I would have to be in a place where the music scene was really happening. So I'd have to be in like Philadelphia or Los Angeles or Nashville or deep in Philly or something like that. And I do not like the cities. I don't feel comfortable in the city. So I was like, that's not really for me either. I could work in like a suburb studio. But I was like, not, not for me. I don't, not for me. So when I graduated college, I ended up doing freelance web work. I had met through, through a mutual friend I was I was introduced to by a mutual friend, to a person that was looking for a new web designer, developer. They lost their person, and they were looking for someone to take over with that. And at the time, I did a little bit of experience doing that, from when I was in high school, kind of picked it up on the side, just kind of like as a hobby. But I was like, Ah, I'll give this a shot. So I started actually doing that freelance for a number of years after graduation. I also worked other jobs that was, like, kind of like nowhere, like dead end kind of jobs. I did customer service work for a little bit. I was a teacher with the American Cross for a little bit, a little bit of this and that, just trying to find my way. But at the same time, I was doing freelance stuff, and nothing related to music and nothing related to technology,   Michael Hingson ** 12:29 well, so you learned HTML coding and all that other stuff that goes along with all that. I gather, I   Dan Swift ** 12:35 sure did, I sure didn't. At the time, CSS was just kind of popular, yeah, so that. And then I learned, I learned JavaScript a little bit. And, you know, I had a very healthy attitude when it when it came to accepting new clients and projects, I always tried to learn something new. Anytime someone gave me a new a new request came in, it was like, Okay, well, I already know how to do this by doing it this way. But how can I make this better? And that was really the way that I really propelled myself forward in the in the digital, I should say, when it comes to development or design.   Michael Hingson ** 13:05 Okay, so you ended up really seriously going into website development and so on.   Dan Swift ** 13:15 I did. So I continued doing freelance. And then about five years after I graduated, I started working as an audio visual technician, and also was doing computer tech stuff as part of the role as well. And while I was there, I ended up developing some web applications for myself to use that I could use to interact with our like projectors and stuff like that. Because they were on, they were all in the network, so I could interact with them using my wait for it, iPod Touch, there you go. So that was, you know, I kind of like started to blend those two together. I was really interested in the web at the time, you know, because I was still doing the freelance, I really wanted to move forward and kind of find a full time position doing that. So I ended up pursuing that more and just trying to refine those skills. And it wasn't until about about five years later, I ended up working as a full time web developer, and then kind of moved forward from   Michael Hingson ** 14:09 there, iPod Touch, what memories? And there are probably bunches of people who don't even know what that is today. That   Dan Swift ** 14:16 is so true, and at the time that was cutting edge technology,   Michael Hingson ** 14:21 yeah, it was not accessible. So I didn't get to own one, because was later than that that Steve Jobs was finally kind of pushed with the threat of a lawsuit into making things accessible. And then they did make the iPhone, the iPod, the Mac and so on, and iTunes U and other things like that, accessible. And of course, what Steve Jobs did, what Apple did, which is what Microsoft eventually sort of has done as well, but he built accessibility into the operating system. So anybody who has an Apple device today. Troy actually has a device that can be made accessible by simply turning on the accessibility mode. Of course, if you're going to turn it on, you better learn how to use it, because the gestures are different. But it took a while, but, but that did happen. But by that time, I, you know, I had other things going on, and so I never did get an iPod and and wasn't able to make it work, but that's okay. But it's like the CD has gone away and the iPod has gone away, and so many things and DVDs have gone away.   Dan Swift ** 15:31 Yes, so true. So true. You know, just as soon as we start to get used to them   Michael Hingson ** 15:35 gone. I think there is, well, maybe it's close. There was a blockbuster open up in Oregon. But again, Blockbuster Video, another one, and I think somebody's trying to bring them back, but I do see that vinyl records are still being sold in various places by various people. Michael Buble just put out a new album, The Best of Buble, and it's available, among other things, in vinyl. So the old turntables, the old record players, and you can actually buy his album as a record and play it, which is kind of cool. Yeah, they've been   Dan Swift ** 16:07 very big with marketing, too. It's been kind of a marketing, I don't want to say gimmick, but in that realm, you kind of like, hey, you know, this is also available in vinyl, and you try to get the people that are like the audio files to really check it out. I never really took the vinyl personally, but I know plenty of people that have sworn by it. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 16:25 I've heard a number of people say that the audio actually is better on vinyl than typical MP three or other similar file formats. Yep,   Dan Swift ** 16:35 yep. I had a friend growing up, and actually, I shouldn't say growing up, so I was already, like, in college or post college, but a buddy of mine, Craig, he was all about vinyl, and he had, he had the nice, the amplifier, and the nice, I think even, like, a certain kind of needle that you would get for the record player. And you know, you'd have to sit in the sweet spot to really enjoy it, and and I respect that, but um, for me, it was like, I didn't, I didn't hear that much of a difference between a CD and vinyl. Um, not very. Didn't have the opportunity to AB test them. But now I will say comparing a CD to like an mp three file, for instance, even a high quality mp three file, I can tell the difference on that Sure. I would never, you know, I'd use the MP threes for convenience. But if I were to have it my way, man, I'd have the uncompressed audio, no doubt about it, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 17:27 wave forms, yep, yep, yeah. Obviously that's that's going to give you the real quality. Of course, it takes a lot more memory, but nevertheless, if you've got the space it, it really makes a lot of sense to do because mp three isn't going to be nearly as high a level quality.   Dan Swift ** 17:43 Absolutely, absolutely true. And that the way I rationalize it to myself. It's like, well, if I'm going to be though in the car or probably walking around and listening to music, I'm going to be getting all kinds of sounds from outside. Anyway, it kind of offsets the poor quality of the MP justify it.   Michael Hingson ** 17:56 That's true. Well, you know when and mp three is convenient if you want to put a bunch of stuff in a well on a memory card and be able to play it all, because if you have uncompressed audio, it does take a lot more space, and you can't put as much on a card, or you got to get a much bigger card. And now we're getting pretty good sized memory cards. But still, the reality is that that for most purposes, not all mp three will suffice.   Dan Swift ** 18:26 That is true. That is true. And I think too, you have a that the next battle is going to be mp three or a streaming,   Michael Hingson ** 18:33 yeah, yeah, that's going to be fun, isn't it? Yeah? Boy. What a world well. So one of the things I noticed in reading your bio and so on is that you got involved to a great degree in dealing with accessibility on the web. Tell me about that.   Dan Swift ** 18:55 Absolutely. Michael, so I've very strong opinions of accessibility. And this really comes back to, you know, I was, I was at my job, and I was only there as a full time developer. I wasn't there all that long, maybe a year, maybe two, and my supervisor came over to me and she said, you know, we want to start to make things more accessible. And this is like, this is like, 1012, years ago at this point, and I was like, okay, you know, and I did my little bit of research, and there wasn't a whole lot going on at the time. I don't think WCAG was a thing back then. It may have been. I can't remember if 508 was a thing at the in the Bible. It was okay, yeah. So I was doing my research, and, you know, you learn about the alt tags, and it's like, okay, well, we're doing that, okay. Then you learn about forms, and it's like, okay, well, they need to have labels, okay, but, but the turning point was this, Michael, we had a person on staff that was blind, and I was put in touch with this person, and I asked them to review like, different, different web applications. Applications we made, or forms or web pages. And the one day, I can't remember if he volunteered or if I asked, but essentially the request was, can this person come into our physical space and review stuff for us in person? And that experience was life changing for me, just watching him navigate our different web pages or web applications or forms, and seeing how he could go through it, see what was a problem, what was not a problem, was just an incredible experience. And I said this before, when given the opportunity to talk about this, I say to other developers and designers, if you ever have even the slightest opportunity to interact with someone, if they if, if you meet someone and they are using, let me, let me rephrase that, if you have the opportunity to watch someone that is blind using a navigate through the web, take, take that opportunity. Is just an amazing, amazing experience, and you draw so much from it. As a developer or designer, so very strong opinions about it, I'm all about inclusivity and making things equal for everyone on the web, and that was just my introductory experience about a dozen years ago.   Michael Hingson ** 21:07 And so what have you done with it all since? Sure, so   Dan Swift ** 21:11 with our website, we went from having about a million success criterion failures, and we've gotten it all the way down to, I think my last check, I think was maybe about 10,000 so it was huge, huge change. It's hard to get everything as because as content changes and newspaper, as new pages come online, it's hard to keep everything 100% accessible, but we know what to look for. You know, we're looking for the right contrast. We're looking for, you know, the all tags. We're looking for hierarchy with the headers. We're making sure our forms are accessible. We're making sure there aren't any keyboard traps, you know, things that most people, most web visitors, don't even think about, you know, or developers even thinking about, until you know, you need to think about them   Michael Hingson ** 22:00 well and other things as well, such as with other kinds of disabilities. If you're a person with epilepsy, for example, you don't want to go to a website and find blinking elements, or at least, you need to have a way to turn them off, yeah.   Dan Swift ** 22:13 Or or audio that starts automatically, or videos that start automatically, yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 22:19 So many different things, or video that starts automatically, and there's music, but there's no audio, so you so a blind person doesn't even know what the video is, yes, which, which happens all too often. But the the reality is that with the Americans with Disabilities Act, it's it's been interesting, because some lawyers have tried to fight the courts and say, well, but the ADA came out long before the internet, so we didn't know anything about the internet, so it doesn't apply. And finally, the Department of Justice is taking some stands to say, yes, it does, because the internet is a place of business, but it's going to have to be codified, I think, to really bring it home. But some courts have sided with that argument and said, Well, yeah, the ADA is too old, so it doesn't, doesn't matter. And so we still see so many challenges with the whole idea of access. And people listening to this podcast know that, among other things I work with a company called accessibe. Are you familiar with them? I am, Yep, yeah, and, and so that's been an interesting challenge. But what makes access to be interesting is that, because it has an artificial intelligent widget that can monitor a website, and at the at the low end of of costs. It's like $490 a year. And it may not pick up everything that a body needs, but it will, will do a lot. And going back to what you said earlier, as websites change, as they evolve, because people are doing things on their website, which they should be doing, if you've got a static website, you never do anything with it. That's not going to do you very much good. But if it's changing constantly, the widget, at least, can look at it and make a lot of the changes to keep the website accessible. The other part of it is that it can tell you what it can't do, which is cool,   Dan Swift ** 24:16 yeah, that's a really good point. You know, there's a lot of tools that are out there. They do monitor the stuff for you, you know, like we on our on our site, we have something that runs every night and it gives us a report every day. But then there are things that it doesn't always check, or it might, it might get a false positive, because it sees that like, you know, this element has a particular color background and the text is a particular color as well. But there's, you know, maybe a gradient image that lies between them, or an image that lies between them. So it's actually okay, even though the tool says it's not, or something like that. So, yeah, those automated tools, but you gotta also look at it. You know, a human has to look at those as well.   Michael Hingson ** 24:52 Yeah, it's a challenge. But the thing that I think is important with, well, say, use accessibe. An example is that I think every web developer should use accessibe. And the reason I think that is not that accessibe will necessarily do a perfect job with with the access widget, but what it will do is give you something that is constantly monitored, and even if it only makes about 50% of the website more usable because there are complex graphics and other things that it can't do, the reality is, why work harder than you have to, and if accessibility can do a lot of the work for you without you having to do it, it doesn't mean that you need to charge less or you need to do things any different, other than the fact that you save a lot of time on doing part of it because the widget does it for you. Absolutely, absolutely.   Dan Swift ** 25:47 That's that's a really, really good point too, having that tool, that tool in your tool belt, you know, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 25:55 yeah. And it makes a lot of sense to do. And there are, there are people who complain about products like accessibe, saying artificial intelligence can't do it. It's too new. You gotta start somewhere. And the reality is that accessibe, in of itself, does a lot, and it really makes websites a lot better than they otherwise were. And some people say, Well, we've gone to websites and accessibe doesn't really seem to make a difference on the site. Maybe not. But even if your website is pretty good up front and you use accessibe, it's that time that you change something that you don't notice and suddenly accessibe fixes it. That makes it better. It's an interesting discussion all the way around, but to to deny the reality of what an AI oriented system can do is, is really just putting your head in the sand and not really being realistic about life as we go forward. I think that is   Dan Swift ** 26:52 so true. That is so true, and there's so many implications with AI and where it's going to go and what it will be able to do. You know, it's just in its infancy, and the amount of things that that the possibilities of what the future is going to be like, but they're just going to be very, very interesting.   Michael Hingson ** 27:05 I interviewed someone, well, I can't say interview, because it's conversation. Well, I had a conversation with someone earlier on, unstoppable mindset, and he said something very interesting. He's a coach, and specifically, he does a lot of work with AI, and he had one customer that he really encouraged to start using chat GPT. And what this customer did, he called his senior staff into a meeting one day, and he said, Okay, I want you to take the rest of the day and just work with chat, G, P, T, and create ideas that will enhance our business, and then let's get together tomorrow to discuss them. And he did that because he wanted people to realize the value already that exists using some of this technology. Well, these people came back with incredible ideas because they took the time to focus on them, and again, they interacted with chat, GPT. So it was a symbiotic, is probably the wrong word, but synergistic, kind of relationship, where they and the AI system worked together and created, apparently, what became really clever ideas that enhanced this customer's business. And the guy, when he first started working with this coach, was totally down on AI, but after that day of interaction with his staff, he recognized the value of it. And I think the really important key of AI is AI will not replace anyone. And that's what this gentleman said to me. He said, AI won't do it. People may replace other people, which really means they're not using AI properly, because if they were, when they find that they can use artificial intelligence to do the job that someone else is doing, you don't get rid of that person. You find something else for them to do. And the conversation that we had was about truck drivers who are involved in transporting freight from one place to another. If you get to the point where you have an autonomous vehicle, who can really do that, you still keep a driver behind the wheel, but that driver is now doing other things for the company, while the AI system does the driving, once it gets dependable enough to do that. So he said, there's no reason for AI to eliminate, and it won't. It's people that do it eliminate any job at all, which I think is a very clever and appropriate response. And I completely agree   Dan Swift ** 29:29 with that, you know, you think of other other technologies that are out there and how it disrupted, disrupted different industries. And the one example I like to use is the traffic light, you know. And I wonder, and I have no way of knowing this. I haven't researched this at all, but I wonder if there was any kind of pushback when they started putting in traffic lights. Because at that point in time, maybe you didn't have people directing traffic or something like that. Or maybe that was the event of the stop sign, it took it took away the jobs of people that were directing traffic or something like that. Maybe there was some kind of uproar over that. Maybe not, I don't know, but I like to think that things like that, you know. It disrupts the industry. But then people move on, and there are other other opportunities for them, and it progresses. It makes society progress forward.   Michael Hingson ** 30:06 And one would note that we still do use school crossing guards at a lot of schools.   Dan Swift ** 30:11 That is so true, that is true. Yeah, yeah. And especially, too, like talking about idea generation. I was talking to ginger. I forgot her last name, but she's the the president of pinstripe marketing, and she was saying that her team sometimes does the same thing that they they use chat GBT for idea generation. And I think, let's say Ashley, I think Ashley Mason, I think was her name, from Dasha social. The same thing they use, they use a chat GPT for idea generation, not not necessarily for creating the content, but for idea generation and the ideas it comes up with. It could be it can save you a lot of time. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 30:48 it can. And you know, I've heard over the last year plus how a lot of school teachers are very concerned that kids will just go off and get chat GPT to write their papers. And every time I started hearing that, I made the comment, why not let it do that? You're not thinking about it in the right way. If a kid goes off and just uses chat GPT to write their paper, they do that and they turn it into you. The question is, then, what are you as the teacher, going to do? And I submit that what the teachers ought to do is, when they assign a paper and the class all turns in their papers, then what you do is you take one period, and you give each student a minute to come up and defend without having the paper in front of them their paper. You'll find out very quickly who knows what. And it's, I think it's a potentially great teaching tool that   Dan Swift ** 31:48 is fascinating, that perspective is awesome. I love that.   Speaker 1 ** 31:52 Well, it makes sense. It   Dan Swift ** 31:55 certainly does. It certainly does. And that made me think of this too. You know, there's a lot of pushback from from artists about how that, you know, their their art was being used, or art is being used by AI to generate, you know, new art, essentially. And and musicians are saying the same thing that they're taking our stuff, it's getting fed into chat, GPT or whatever, and they're using it to train these different models. And I read this, this article. I don't even know where it was, but it's probably a couple months ago at this point. And the person made this comparison, and the person said, you know, it's really no different than a person learning how to paint in school by studying other people's art. You know, it's the same idea. It's just at a much, much much accelerated pace. And I thought, you know what that's that's kind of interesting. It's an interesting   Michael Hingson ** 32:45 perspective. It is. I do agree that we need to be concerned, that the human element is important. And there are a lot of things that people are are doing already to misuse some of this, this AI stuff, these AI tools, but we already have the dark web. We've had that for a while, too. I've never been to the dark web. I don't know how to get to it. That's fine. I don't need to go to the dark web. Besides that, I'll bet it's not accessible anyway. But the we've had the dark web, and people have accepted the fact that it's there, and there are people who monitor it and and all that. But the reality is, people are going to misuse things. They're going to be people who will misuse and, yeah, we have to be clever enough to try to ferret that out. But the fact of the matter is, AI offers so much already. One of the things that I heard, oh, gosh, I don't whether it was this year or late last year, was that, using artificial intelligence, Pfizer and other organizations actually created in only a couple of days? Or moderna, I guess, is the other one, the COVID vaccines that we have. If people had to do it alone, it would have taken them years that that we didn't have. And the reality is that using artificial intelligence, it was only a few days, and they had the beginnings of those solutions because they they created a really neat application and put the system to work. Why wouldn't we want to do that?   Dan Swift ** 34:23 I completely agree. I completely agree. And that's, again, that's how you move society forward. You know, it's similar to the idea of, you know, testing medicine on or testing medications on animals. For instance, you know, I love animals. You know, I love dogs, bunnies. I mean, the whole, the whole gamut, you know, love animals, but I understand the importance of, you know, well, do we test on them, or do we press on people, you know, you gotta, or do you not test? Or do just not you like you gotta. You gotta weigh out the pros and cons. And they're, they're definitely, definitely those with AI as well.   Michael Hingson ** 34:56 Well, I agree, and I. With animals and people. Now, I mean, as far as I'm concerned, we ought to be doing tests on politicians. You know, they're not people. Anyway. So I think when you decide to become a politician, you take a special pill that nobody seems to be able to prove, but they take dumb pills, so they're all there. But anyway, I'm with Mark Twain. Congress is at Grand Ole benevolent asylum for the helpless. So I'm an equal opportunity abuser, which is why we don't do politics on unstoppable mindset. We can have a lot of fun with it, I'm sure, but we sure could. It would be great talk about artificial intelligence. You got politicians. But the reality is that it's, it's really something that that brings so much opportunity, and I'm and it's going to continue to do that, and every day, as we see advances in what AI is doing, we will continue to see advances and what is open for us to be able to utilize it to accomplish, which is cool. I   Dan Swift ** 36:04 completely agree. Completely agree. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 36:06 so it'll be fun to see you know kind of how it goes. So are you, do you work for a company now that makes websites? Or what is your company that you work for? Do, sure.   Dan Swift ** 36:16 So I'm still in the education space, so I'm still, I'm like, in a state school managing a team of web professionals.   Michael Hingson ** 36:23 Okay, well, that's cool. So you keep the school sites and all the things that go along with it up at all that   Dan Swift ** 36:31 is correct. And we have lots of fun challenges when we start to integrate with third parties and got to make sure they're accessible too. And sometimes there's dialog that goes back and forth that people aren't happy with but, but it's my job to make sure, that's one of the things that we make sure happens, especially since I'm sure you've been following this. There's the Department of Justice ruling back in April, but I think it's anyone that's receiving state funding, they have to be. They have to follow the WCAG. Two point, I think, 2.1 double A compliance by April of 26 if you are a certain size, and my my institution, falls into that category. So we need to make sure that we were on the right path   Michael Hingson ** 37:06 well. And the reality is that has been around since 2010 but it took the the DOJ 12 years to finally come up with rules and regulations to implement section 508. Yep, but it's it's high time they did and they do need to do it for the rest of the internet, and that's coming, but people are just being slow. And for me personally, I think it's just amazing that it's taking so long. It's not like you have to redesign a box, that you have to go off and retool hardware. This is all code. Why should it be that difficult to do? But people throw roadblocks in your way, and so it becomes tough. Yeah, it's   Dan Swift ** 37:47 interesting, too. I remember reading this article, oh, gosh, this is probably, this is probably about a dozen years ago, and it said that, you know, the original web was 100% accessible, that it was just, you know, just text on a page pretty much. And you could do very, very simple layouts, you know, and then it got more convoluted. People would start doing tables for layouts, and tables within tables within tables, and so on and so forth. Like the original web it was, it was completely accessible. And now with, with all the the interactions we do with with client side scripting and everything like that, is just, it's a mess. If   Michael Hingson ** 38:19 you really want to hear an interesting thing, I like to look and I've done it for a long time, long before accessibe. I like to explore different sites and see how accessible they are. And one day I visited nsa.gov, the National Security Agency, which, of course, doesn't really exist. So I could tell you stories, but I went to nsa.gov, and I found that that was the most accessible website I had ever encountered. If you arrow down to a picture, for example, when you arrowed into it, suddenly you got on your screen reader a complete verbal description of what the picture was, and everything about that site was totally usable and totally accessible. I'd never seen a website that was so good contrast that with and it's changed. I want to be upfront about it, Martha Stewart Living. The first time I went to that website because I was selling products that Martha Stewart was interested. So I went to look at the website. It was totally inaccessible. The screen reader wouldn't talk at all. Now, I've been to Martha Stewart since, and it's and it's much more accessible, but, but I was just amazed@nsa.gov was so accessible. It was amazing, which I thought was really pretty cool. Of all places. You   Dan Swift ** 39:41 know, it's interesting. Before I started my my YouTube channel and podcast, I actually thought about creating a channel and or podcast about websites that are inaccessible, and I thought about calling companies out. And the more I thought about it, I was like, I don't know if I want to make that many people angry. I don't know if that's a   Michael Hingson ** 39:58 good idea. I'm. Would suggest going the other way, and maybe, you know, maybe we can work together on it. But I would rather feature websites that are accessible and tell the story of how they got there, how their people got there. I would think that would be, I hear what you're saying about making people angry. So I would think, rather than doing that, feature the places that are and why they are and and their stories, and that might help motivate more people to make their websites accessible. What do you think about that as an idea?   Dan Swift ** 40:28 I actually thought about that as well, and I was going backwards between that and and the other the negative side, because I thought, you know, bring that to light. Might actually force them to like by shedding light on it, might force them to make their site more accessible, whether what or not or not, no, but I definitely thought about those two sites.   Michael Hingson ** 40:45 Yeah, it's, it's, it's a challenge all the way around. Well, what was the very first thing you did, the first experience that you ever had dealing with accessibility that got you started down that road.   Dan Swift ** 40:58 I think it was like I said, when I work with that, that blind person, when I, when I first had that opportunity to see how he used the different web applications, we had the different web pages, and he was using a Mac. So he was using VoiceOver, he was using the, I think it's called the rotor menu, or roto something like that. Yeah, yep. So then after that happened, it was like, whoa. I need to get them back so I can, like, learn to use this as well and do my own testing. So the IT department had an old I asked them. I said, Hey guys, do you have any any old MacBooks that I can use? I was like, it can be old. I just need to test it. I need to, I need it to test for accessibility on the web. They hooked me up with an old machine, you know, it wasn't super old, you know, but it was. It worked for me. It gave me an opportunity to do my testing, and then I kind of became like the person in the department to do that. Everyone else, they didn't have the interest as much as I did. They recognized the importance of it, but they, they didn't have the same fire on the inside that I had, so I kind of took that on, and then like that. Now that I'm in the position of leadership, now it's more of a delegating that and making sure it still gets done. But I'm kind of like the resident expert in our in our area, so I'm still kind of the person that dives in a little bit by trying to make my team aware and do the things they need to do to make sure we're continuing, continuing to create accessible projects. You   Michael Hingson ** 42:20 mentioned earlier about the whole idea of third party products and so on and and dealing with them. What do you do? And how do you deal with a company? Let's say you you need to use somebody else's product and some of the things that the school system has to do, and you find they're not accessible. What do you do?   Dan Swift ** 42:42 So a lot of times, what will happen, I shouldn't say a lot of times. It's not uncommon for a department to make a purchase from a third party, and this is strictly, I'm talking in the web space. They might, they might make a purchase with a third party, and then they want us to integrate it. And this is a great example I had. It was actually in the spring the this, they had essentially a widget that would be on the on their particular set of pages, and there was a pop up that would appear. And don't get me started on pop ups, because I got very strong opinion about those. Me too, like I said, growing up, you know, late 90s, early 2000s very, very strong opinions about pop ups. So, but, but I encountered this, and it wasn't accessible. And I'm glad that in the position I'm in, I could say this unit, you need to talk to the company, and they need to fix this, or I'm taking it down. And I'm glad that I had the backing from, you know, from leadership, essentially, that I could do, I can make that claim and then do that, and the company ended up fixing it. So that was good. Another example was another department was getting ready to buy something. Actually, no, they had already purchased it, but they hadn't implemented it yet. The first example that was already implemented, that was I discovered that after the fact. So in the second example, they were getting ready to implement it, and they showed us another school that used it also a pop up. And I looked at it on the on the other school site, and I said, this isn't accessible. We cannot use this. No. And they said, Well, yes, it is. And I said, No, it isn't. And I explained to them, and I showed them how it was not accessible, and they ended up taking it back to their developers. Apparently there was a bug that they then fixed and they made it accessible, and then we could implement it. So it's nice that like that. I have the support from from leadership, that if there is something that is inaccessible, I have the power to kind of wheel my fist and take that down, take it off of our site. Do   Michael Hingson ** 44:31 you ever find that when some of this comes up within the school system, that departments push back, or have they caught on and recognize the value of accessibility, so they'll be supportive.   Dan Swift ** 44:45 I think the frustration with them becomes more of we bought this tool. We wish we had known this was an issue before we bought I think it's more of a like like that. We just wasted our time and money, possibly. But generally speaking, they do see the. Value of it, and they've recognized the importance of it. It's just more of a when others, there's more hoops everyone has to go through.   Michael Hingson ** 45:05 Yeah, and as you mentioned with pop ups, especially, it's a real challenge, because you could be on a website, and a lot of times A pop up will come up and it messes up the website for people with screen readers and so on. And part of the problem is we don't even always find the place to close or take down the pop up, which is really very frustrating   Dan Swift ** 45:30 Exactly, exactly the tab index could be off, or you could still be on the page somewhere, and it doesn't allow you to get into it and remove it, or, yeah, and extra bonus points if they also have an audio playing or a video playing inside of that.   Michael Hingson ** 45:44 Yeah, it really does make life a big challenge, which is very, very frustrating all the way around. Yeah, pop ups are definitely a big pain in the butt, and I know with accessibility, we're we're all very concerned about that, but still, pop ups do occur. And the neat thing about a product like accessibe, and one of the reasons I really support it, is it's scalable, and that is that as the people who develop the product at accessibe improve it, those improvements filter down to everybody using the widget, which is really cool, and that's important, because with individual websites where somebody has to code it in and keep monitoring it, as you pointed out, the problem is, if that's all you have, then you've got to keep paying people to to monitor everything, to make sure everything stays accessible and coded properly, whereas there are ways to be able to take advantage of something like accessibe, where what you're able to do is let it, monitor it, and as accessibe learns, and I've got some great examples where people contacted me because they had things like a shopping cart on a website that didn't work, but when accessibe fixed it, because it turns out there was something that needed to be addressed that got fixed for anybody using the product. Which is really cool.   Dan Swift ** 47:07 Yeah, that's really neat. I definitely appreciate things like that where, you know, you essentially fix something for one person, it's fixed for everyone, or a new feature gets added for someone, or, you know, a group of people, for instance, and then everyone is able to benefit from that. That's really, really awesome. I love that type of stuff.   Michael Hingson ** 47:22 Yeah, I think it's really so cool. How has all this business with accessibility and so on affected you in terms of your YouTube channel and podcasting and so on? How do you bring that into the process? That's that's   Dan Swift ** 47:37 really, really good question. I am very proud to say that I take the time to create transcripts of all my recordings, and then I go through them, and I check them for for accuracy, to make sure that things aren't correct, things are incorrect. Make sure things are correct, that they are not incorrect. So I'll make sure that those are there when the when the videos go live, those are available. Spotify creates them automatically for you. I don't know that you that I have the ability to modify them. I'm assuming I probably do, but honestly, I haven't checked into that. But so that's that's all accessible. When it comes to my web page, I make sure that all my images have the appropriate, you know, alt tags associated with them, that the the descriptions are there so people understand what the pictures are. I don't have a whole lot of pictures. Usually it's just the thumbnail for the videos, so just indicating what it is. And then I just try to be, you know, kind of, kind of text heavy. I try to make sure that my, you know, my links are not, you know, click here, learn more stuff like that. I make sure or they're not actual web addresses. I try to make sure that they're actual actionable. So when someone's using a screen reader and they go over a link, it actually is meaningful. And color contrast is another big one. I try to make sure my color contrast is meeting the appropriate level for WCAG, 2.1 double A which I can't remember what actual contrast is, but there's a contrast checker for it, which is really, really helpful   Michael Hingson ** 49:00 well. And the other, the other part about it is when somebody goes to your website again, of course, accessibility is different for different people, so when you're dealing with things like contrast or whatever, do people who come to the website have the ability to monitor or not monitor, but modify some of those settings so that they get maybe a higher contrast or change colors. Or do they have that ability?   Dan Swift ** 49:28 I They do not have that ability. I remember looking into a tool a while ago, and it was and actually, you know, at the school, we thought about developing a tool. It would be like a widget on the side that you could adjust on different things like that. You could do, you could remove images, you could remove animation, you could change color, contrast, that sort of thing. And it just be like a very predefined kind of kind of settings. But in my research, I found that a lot of times that causes other problems for people, and it kind of falls into the the arena of. Um, separate but equal. And there's a lot of issues with that right now in the accessibility space when it comes to the web. So for instance, there was a company, I forget what the company name was, but they had one of their things that they did was they would create text only versions of your pages. So you'd contract with them. They would they would scrape the content of your site. They would create a text version, text only version of your pages. So if people were using a screen reader, they could just follow that link and then browse the text only version. And there was litigation, and the company got sued, and the the person suing was successful, because it was essentially creating a separate argument.   Michael Hingson ** 50:34 And that's not necessarily separate, but equal is the problem, because if you only got the text, pictures are put on websites, graphs are put on websites. All of those other kinds of materials are put on websites for reasons. And so what really needs to happen is that those other things need to be made accessible, which is doable, and the whole web con excessive content. Accessibility Guidelines do offer the the information as to how to do that and what to do, but it is important that that other information be made available, because otherwise it really is separate, but not totally equal at   Dan Swift ** 51:11 all. That's absolutely true. Absolutely true. Yeah. So it   Michael Hingson ** 51:15 is a, it is something to, you know, to look at well, you've been doing a podcast and so on for a while. What are some challenges that someone might face that you advise people about if they're going to create their own podcast or a really productive YouTube channel,   Dan Swift ** 51:31 be real with yourself with the amount of time you have to dedicate to it, because what I found is that it takes a lot more time than I originally anticipated I thought going in, I thought, you know, so I typically try to record one or two people a week. When I first started out, I was only recording one person. And usually I would do, you know, record one day, edit the next day, you know, do the web page stuff. I would go with it, you know, I can knock it out in like an hour or two. But I wasn't anticipating the social media stuff that goes with it, the search engine optimization that goes with it, the research that goes with it, trying to so if I'm if I'm producing a video that's going to go on YouTube, what's hot at the moment? What are people actually searching for? What's going to grab people's attention? What kind of thumbnail do I have to create to grab someone's attention, where it's not clickbait, but it also represents what I'm actually talking to the person about, and still interesting. So it's a lot of a lot of that research, a lot of that sort of thing. It just eats up a lot a lot of time when it comes to like the transcripts, for instance, that was those super easy on their number of services out there that created automatically for you, and they just have to read through it and make sure it's okay. I know YouTube will do it as well. I found that YouTube isn't as good as some of the other services that are out there, but in a bind, you can at least rely on YouTube and then go and edit from that point. But yet, time is definitely a big one. I would say, if anyone is starting to do it, make sure you have some serious time to dedicate several, several hours a week, I would say, upwards, you know, probably a good, you know, four to 10 hours a week is what I would estimate in the moment. If you're looking to produce a 30 minute segment once or twice a week, I would estimate about that time.   Michael Hingson ** 53:11 Yeah, one of the things I've been hearing about videos is that that the trend is is clearly not to have long videos, but only 32nd videos, and put them vertical as opposed to horizontal. And anything over 30 seconds is is not good, which seems to me to really not challenge people to deal with having enough content to make something relevant, because you can't do everything in 30 seconds exactly,   Dan Swift ** 53:41 and what I found too. So this was very this was a little bit of a learning curve for me. So with, with the YouTube shorts that you have, they have to be a minute or less. I mean, now they're actually in the process of changing it to three minutes or less. I do not have that access yet, but it has Go ahead, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so. But what I'm finding Michael is that the people that so I might create this a great example. So I was interviewing a comedian in New York City, Meredith Dietz, awesome, awesome episode. But I was talking to her about becoming a comedian, and I made about four different shorts for her from her video, and I was doing a new one each week to kind of promote it. And the videos, for me, they were getting a lot I was getting anywhere between maybe 315 100 views on the short for me, that was awesome. For other people, you know, that might be nothing, but for me, that was awesome. But what I found was that the people that watch the shorts aren't necessarily the same people that watch the long form videos. So I'm or, or I might get subscribers from people that watch the shorts, but then they're not actually watching the video. And in the end, that kind of hurts your channel, because it's showing, it's telling the YouTube I'm gonna use air quotes, YouTube algorithm that my subscribers aren't interested in my content, and it ends up hurting me more. So anyone that's trying to play that game. And be aware of that. You know, you can't get more subscribers through shorts, but if you're not converting them, it's going to hurt you.   Michael Hingson ** 55:05 I can accept three minutes, but 30 seconds just seems to be really strange. And I was asked once to produce a demonstration of accessibe on a website. They said you got to do it in 30 seconds, or no more than a minute, but preferably 30 seconds. Well, you can't do that if, in part, you're also trying to explain what a screen reader is and everything else. The reality is, there's got to be some tolerance. And I think that the potential is there to do that. But it isn't all about eyesight, which is, of course, the real issue from my perspective. Anyway.   Dan Swift ** 55:41 Yeah, I completely agree. I think what YouTube is trying to do, and I believe in getting this from Tiktok, I think Tiktok has three up to three minutes. Actually, there might be 10 minutes now that I think about it, but, but I think they're trying to follow the trend, and it's like, let's make videos slightly longer and see how that goes. So be very curious to see how that all pans out.   Michael Hingson ** 55:58 Well. And I think that makes sense. I think there's some value in that, but 30 seconds is not enough time to get real content, and if people dumb down to that point, then that's pretty scary. So I'm glad to hear that the trend seems to be going a little bit longer, which is, which is a good thing, which is pretty important to be able to do. Yeah, I completely   Dan Swift ** 56:21 agree. Because like that, the trend right now, it's, you know, people, they want stuff immediately, and if you don't catch them in 10 seconds, they're swiping onto something else, which is which is very challenging, at least, especially for me and what I do. Who's   Michael Hingson ** 56:32 the most inspiring guest that you've ever had on your podcast?   Dan Swift ** 56:37 Michael, this is a good one. This is a good one. So the video for Ashley Mason. She is a social media marketing she created a social medi

Neues Browser Vertikale Tabs PWAs auf Basis von Firefox Ted Lasso returns Strongbox wurde verkauft Visible Zorker Interactive Fiction Database Geschichte von Zork: Exploring Zork, Part 1, Part 2, Part 3 Reguläres Zork direkt im Browser Photo-Ecke ORWO bringt wahrscheinlich … Weiterlesen → Der Beitrag TZ252 – Zwei Mann in Polen erschien zuerst auf Teezeit Podcasts.

Welcome to Dev Game Club, where this week we begin a new series on 1997's Interstate '76. We set the game a bit in its time, talk about Activision (almost as an afterthought), and then start getting into the characters and the vibe, of which there is much. Dev Game Club looks at classic video games and plays through them over several episodes, providing commentary. Sections played: Early mission or two Issues covered: a game time forgot, playing a sim game genre, a unique take on the sim genre plus car combat, prepping the sim elements vs the actual play, other games from that year, taking a formula and doing something different with it, modern exploitation-inspired games, exploitation cinema, grindhouse, other potential influences and inspirations, why you pick sparse environments, breakable cacti, a huge variety of games, low-cost film-making and democratization, vigilantes, a bland corporation, text adventures, a business and not a game company, seeing the impact of acquisition or mergers, character introductions, fake actors playing characters, character names, Groove Champion vs Stiletto Anyway, stylized and simplified characters, flat shading and seeing every polygon, connecting to the character in the cockpit and via the radio, naturally cinematic, stylized presence, jitteriness and physics, compounding errors, deterministic physics, preserving this game and finding ways to play it, just shipping a game, dealing with a controller vs keyboard.    Games, people, and influences mentioned or discussed: TIE Fighter (series), Starfighter, MechWarrior (series), Voltron, Diablo, Resident Evil, The Last Express, Fallout, GoldenEye, Castlevania: SotN, Age of Empires, Outlaws, Curse of Monkey Island, Dark Forces 2, Shadows of the Empire, Wing Commander: Prophecy, Final Fantasy VII, Mario Kart 64, Gran Turismo, PlayStation, Dark Forces, Final Fantasy Tactics, Wet, Kane and Lynch, Suda 51, Grasshopper Interactive, Killer 7, Death Race 2000, Russ Meyers, Death Proof, Mad Max (series), MegaMan 8, Kaeon, Cleopatra Jones, Enter the Dragon, Jim Kelly, Bruce Lee, Game of Death, Quentin Tarantino, Kill Bill, Fist of Fury, Starsky and Hutch, River Raid, Pitfall, David Crane, Atari, Call of Duty, Guitar Hero, Capcom, Blizzard, id Software, Interplay, Infocom, Zork (series), Witness, Enchanter (series), Ballyhoo, Lurking Horror, Electronic Arts, Bobby Kotick, Nintendo, BattleZone, Pac-Man, Jason Schreier, Play Nice: The Rise and Fall of Blizzard Entertainment, Hearthstone, Marvel Snap, Ultima (series), Bioware, Treyarch, Raven Software, Heretic/Hexen, Quake, Battletech/FASA Entertainment, Anachronox, Pam Grier, Chuck Norris, Dungeon Keeper, Half-Life 2, Indiana Jones and the Internal Machine, Video Game History Foundation, Star Wars: Episode I: Racer, Forza (series), Falcon (series), Dark Souls, Minecraft, LostLake86, Mors, Kirk Hamilton, Aaron Evers, Mark Garcia.   Errata: Lost Treasures of Infocom actually originally came out in 1991. We regret the error.  Next time: More I'76! Twitch Discord DevGameClub@gmail.com

In this podcast, Thomas Domville explores RYFT: A Timely Manor for iOS, an immersive audio-based mystery-adventure game designed for hands-free, voice-activated play. Inspired by classics like Myst, Monkey Island, and Zork, RYFT offers a unique experience where players navigate and interact entirely through voice commands.Game Overview:Setting: Players find themselves in Nexus Manor, a mysterious mansion beyond time, with no recollection of how they got there. Armed with a cryptic stone tablet covered in strange symbols, they must explore the estate to unravel its secrets.Gameplay: This fully audio-driven game allows players to:Move using voice commands such as “north,” “east,” “south,” and “west.”Verbally interact with objects and characters.Solve intricate puzzles by collecting and combining items.Engage with a fully voiced cast, each tied to The Master of the manor.Narrative: As they progress, players uncover recordings from a distressed girl, revealing a sinister scheme orchestrated by The Master. To aid her, they must navigate the sprawling mansion and uncover its hidden truths across time.Tune in to the podcast for a full demonstration of RYFT: A Timely Manor!RYFT: A Timely Manor on the App Store https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ryft-a-timely-manor/id1661569093TranscriptDisclaimer: This transcript was generated by Aiko, an AI-powered transcription app. It is not edited or formatted, and it may not accurately capture the speakers' names, voices, or content.Hello and welcome.My name is Thomas Domville, also known as AnonyMouse.In this podcast, I'm going to be covering an iOS game called Rift.It's the first chapter called A Timely Manor.It is a free game, which I think all of us could say we love, and it's kind of compelling.It's kind of a lot of fun.There's some similarities to this to previous games I've done in the past years or so, and I thought I'd just pass this game along to you.It is an audio based adventure game.So it's kind of a voice control type game.So it reminds me a lot of the older text adventure games where you are put in a room or whatever not be.For example, in our first scenario, we're left in a room that has a desk and a coat stand and stuff like that.And you'll see that we just completely use our voice alone.Now, as a bonus, I will show you is not all has to be done by voice.So for those that prefer just using the regular old screen, or if you have a braille display, that might be something that you want to take a look at as well.So check on the availability of if that or this game is available to you in your country app store.So without further ado, let's jump into Rift.Now the first thing I want to note out is that as always voiceover sometimes kind of butchered the words.And you're going to hear it pronounced it as right.It seems like no matter which voice I use, it says right.And that's because the spelling…

Guest: Bobby Kotick, former CEO of Activision Blizzard; and Bing Gordon, general partner at Kleiner PerkinsIn 2020, when President Trump signed the executive order that would ban TikTok in the U.S., Bobby Kotick called his old friend Steven Mnuchin. The former Secretary of the Treasury told him that, if TikTok's U.S. operations were to be sold to an American company, Microsoft would be the only bidder.A couple calls later, he reached ByteDance founder and CEO Zhang Yiming, who said he'd rather sell to Bobby than Microsoft. Concerned about his ability to get the deal done solo, Bobby called Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella and offered to make a joint bid. Nadella declined, but added, “ if the deal doesn't get done, we should sit down and talk about us buying Activision.” TikTok currently remains Chinese-owned, but three years later, Microsoft paid $75 billion for Activision Blizzard.Chapters:Mentioned in this episode: Harvard-Westlake School, Alison Ressler, Vivendi, Berkshire Hathaway, Bruce Hack and Arnaud de Puyfontaine, John Riccitiello and EA, Call of Duty, Bizarre Creations, Atari, Apple II, Commodore 64, Jean-Louis Gassée, Apple Lisa, Howard Lincoln, Philips, Magnavox Odyssey, Sutter Hill Ventures, Infocom and Zork, Toys-R-Us, Howard Hughes, E. Parry Thomas, Sun Valley, Thom Weisel, William Morris Endeavor, Guitar Hero, Davidson & Associates, Michael Morhaime, Allen Adham, World of Warcraft, Medal of Honor, Steven Spielberg, Michael Crichton, Chris Roberts, Overwatch, Tencent, Time Warner, Jeff Bewkes, Sheryl Sandberg, Lean In, Lina Khan, Samsung, Elon Musk, James L. Jones, UFC, E. Floyd Kvamme, Toy Story 2, Procter & Gamble, Ron Doornik, John Lasseter, Xerox PARC, Shigeru Miyamoto, Satoru Iwata, Goldeneye 007, James Bond, Barbara Broccoli, Oculus, Apple Vision Pro, Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, Sam Altman, Mustafa Suleyman, Spotify, Candy Crush Saga, Disney, Phil Spencer, Clarence Avant and Motown Records. Links:Connect with BobbyTwitterLinkedInConnect with BingTwitterLinkedInConnect with JoubinTwitterLinkedInEmail: grit@kleinerperkins.com Learn more about Kleiner PerkinsThis episode was edited by Eric Johnson from LightningPod.fm

Today, we're wrapping up an incredible year by reflecting on some of the most iconic moments in gaming history that we explored in 2024. From celebrating the anniversaries of beloved titles like Minecraft and World of Warcraft to diving into foundational classics like Zork and the Atari 2600, it's been a year filled with memorable milestones. We also revisited legendary franchises such as The Legend of Zelda, Crash Bandicoot, and Super Mario 64, while exploring unique and quirky titles like Dark Seed and Amnesia. As we look back, we're reminded of the rich tapestry of gaming's past and eagerly look forward to uncovering more stories in the coming year. So, join us as we celebrate the year gone by and get ready for what's next on today's trip down Memory Card Lane. Find out more at https://a-trip-down-memory-card-lane.pinecast.co

We are back with another AI update about AI produced podcasts. And this time, we have a special guest joining us, Jill Walker Rettberg. In this episode Jill, Scott, and Jhave will discuss the new feature of Google's NotebookLM, that lets you listen to a podcast conversation about your source documents.   References Google. n. d. “NotebookLM”, NotebookLM. retrieved from https://notebooklm.google/.   Infocom. 1977. Zork. Personal Software. PDP-10 mainframe computer. https://www.pcjs.org/software/pcx86/game/infocom/zork1/.    Montfort, Nick. 2011. Curveship. https://nickm.com/curveship/index.html. 

OpenAI DevDay is almost here! Per tradition, we are hosting a DevDay pregame event for everyone coming to town! Join us with demos and gossip!Also sign up for related events across San Francisco: the AI DevTools Night, the xAI open house, the Replicate art show, the DevDay Watch Party (for non-attendees), Hack Night with OpenAI at Cloudflare. For everyone else, join the Latent Space Discord for our online watch party and find fellow AI Engineers in your city.OpenAI's recent o1 release (and Reflection 70b debacle) has reignited broad interest in agentic general reasoning and tree search methods.While we have covered some of the self-taught reasoning literature on the Latent Space Paper Club, it is notable that the Eric Zelikman ended up at xAI, whereas OpenAI's hiring of Noam Brown and now Shunyu suggests more interest in tool-using chain of thought/tree of thought/generator-verifier architectures for Level 3 Agents.We were more than delighted to learn that Shunyu is a fellow Latent Space enjoyer, and invited him back (after his first appearance on our NeurIPS 2023 pod) for a look through his academic career with Harrison Chase (one year after his first LS show).ReAct: Synergizing Reasoning and Acting in Language Modelspaper linkFollowing seminal Chain of Thought papers from Wei et al and Kojima et al, and reflecting on lessons from building the WebShop human ecommerce trajectory benchmark, Shunyu's first big hit, the ReAct paper showed that using LLMs to “generate both reasoning traces and task-specific actions in an interleaved manner” achieved remarkably greater performance (less hallucination/error propagation, higher ALFWorld/WebShop benchmark success) than CoT alone. In even better news, ReAct scales fabulously with finetuning:As a member of the elite Princeton NLP group, Shunyu was also a coauthor of the Reflexion paper, which we discuss in this pod.Tree of Thoughtspaper link hereShunyu's next major improvement on the CoT literature was Tree of Thoughts:Language models are increasingly being deployed for general problem solving across a wide range of tasks, but are still confined to token-level, left-to-right decision-making processes during inference. This means they can fall short in tasks that require exploration, strategic lookahead, or where initial decisions play a pivotal role…ToT allows LMs to perform deliberate decision making by considering multiple different reasoning paths and self-evaluating choices to decide the next course of action, as well as looking ahead or backtracking when necessary to make global choices.The beauty of ToT is it doesnt require pretraining with exotic methods like backspace tokens or other MCTS architectures. You can listen to Shunyu explain ToT in his own words on our NeurIPS pod, but also the ineffable Yannic Kilcher:Other WorkWe don't have the space to summarize the rest of Shunyu's work, you can listen to our pod with him now, and recommend the CoALA paper and his initial hit webinar with Harrison, today's guest cohost:as well as Shunyu's PhD Defense Lecture:as well as Shunyu's latest lecture covering a Brief History of LLM Agents:As usual, we are live on YouTube! Show Notes* Harrison Chase* LangChain, LangSmith, LangGraph* Shunyu Yao* Alec Radford* ReAct Paper* Hotpot QA* Tau Bench* WebShop* SWE-Agent* SWE-Bench* Trees of Thought* CoALA Paper* Related Episodes* Our Thomas Scialom (Meta) episode* Shunyu on our NeurIPS 2023 Best Papers episode* Harrison on our LangChain episode* Mentions* Sierra* Voyager* Jason Wei* Tavily* SERP API* ExaTimestamps* [00:00:00] Opening Song by Suno* [00:03:00] Introductions* [00:06:16] The ReAct paper* [00:12:09] Early applications of ReAct in LangChain* [00:17:15] Discussion of the Reflection paper* [00:22:35] Tree of Thoughts paper and search algorithms in language models* [00:27:21] SWE-Agent and SWE-Bench for coding benchmarks* [00:39:21] CoALA: Cognitive Architectures for Language Agents* [00:45:24] Agent-Computer Interfaces (ACI) and tool design for agents* [00:49:24] Designing frameworks for agents vs humans* [00:53:52] UX design for AI applications and agents* [00:59:53] Data and model improvements for agent capabilities* [01:19:10] TauBench* [01:23:09] Promising areas for AITranscriptAlessio [00:00:01]: Hey, everyone, welcome to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO of Residence at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Small AI.Swyx [00:00:12]: Hey, and today we have a super special episode. I actually always wanted to take like a selfie and go like, you know, POV, you're about to revolutionize the world of agents because we have two of the most awesome hiring agents in the house. So first, we're going to welcome back Harrison Chase. Welcome. Excited to be here. What's new with you recently in sort of like the 10, 20 second recap?Harrison [00:00:34]: Linkchain, Linksmith, Lingraph, pushing on all of them. Lots of cool stuff related to a lot of the stuff that we're going to talk about today, probably.Swyx [00:00:42]: Yeah.Alessio [00:00:43]: We'll mention it in there. And the Celtics won the title.Swyx [00:00:45]: And the Celtics won the title. You got that going on for you. I don't know. Is that like floorball? Handball? Baseball? Basketball.Alessio [00:00:52]: Basketball, basketball.Harrison [00:00:53]: Patriots aren't looking good though, so that's...Swyx [00:00:56]: And then Xun Yu, you've also been on the pod, but only in like a sort of oral paper presentation capacity. But welcome officially to the LinkedSpace pod.Shunyu [00:01:03]: Yeah, I've been a huge fan. So thanks for the invitation. Thanks.Swyx [00:01:07]: Well, it's an honor to have you on. You're one of like, you're maybe the first PhD thesis defense I've ever watched in like this AI world, because most people just publish single papers, but every paper of yours is a banger. So congrats.Shunyu [00:01:22]: Thanks.Swyx [00:01:24]: Yeah, maybe we'll just kick it off with, you know, what was your journey into using language models for agents? I like that your thesis advisor, I didn't catch his name, but he was like, you know... Karthik. Yeah. It's like, this guy just wanted to use language models and it was such a controversial pick at the time. Right.Shunyu [00:01:39]: The full story is that in undergrad, I did some computer vision research and that's how I got into AI. But at the time, I feel like, you know, you're just composing all the GAN or 3D perception or whatever together and it's not exciting anymore. And one day I just see this transformer paper and that's really cool. But I really got into language model only when I entered my PhD and met my advisor Karthik. So he was actually the second author of GPT-1 when he was like a visiting scientist at OpenAI. With Alec Redford?Swyx [00:02:10]: Yes.Shunyu [00:02:11]: Wow. That's what he told me. It's like back in OpenAI, they did this GPT-1 together and Ilya just said, Karthik, you should stay because we just solved the language. But apparently Karthik is not fully convinced. So he went to Princeton, started his professorship and I'm really grateful. So he accepted me as a student, even though I have no prior knowledge in NLP. And you know, we just met for the first time and he's like, you know, what do you want to do? And I'm like, you know, you have done those test game scenes. That's really cool. I wonder if we can just redo them with language models. And that's how the whole journey began. Awesome.Alessio [00:02:46]: So GPT-2 was out at the time? Yes, that was 2019.Shunyu [00:02:48]: Yeah.Alessio [00:02:49]: Way too dangerous to release. And then I guess the first work of yours that I came across was React, which was a big part of your defense. But also Harrison, when you came on The Pockets last year, you said that was one of the first papers that you saw when you were getting inspired for BlankChain. So maybe give a recap of why you thought it was cool, because you were already working in AI and machine learning. And then, yeah, you can kind of like intro the paper formally. What was that interesting to you specifically?Harrison [00:03:16]: Yeah, I mean, I think the interesting part was using these language models to interact with the outside world in some form. And I think in the paper, you mostly deal with Wikipedia. And I think there's some other data sets as well. But the outside world is the outside world. And so interacting with things that weren't present in the LLM and APIs and calling into them and thinking about the React reasoning and acting and kind of like combining those together and getting better results. I'd been playing around with LLMs, been talking with people who were playing around with LLMs. People were trying to get LLMs to call into APIs, do things, and it was always, how can they do it more reliably and better? And so this paper was basically a step in that direction. And I think really interesting and also really general as well. Like I think that's part of the appeal is just how general and simple in a good way, I think the idea was. So that it was really appealing for all those reasons.Shunyu [00:04:07]: Simple is always good. Yeah.Alessio [00:04:09]: Do you have a favorite part? Because I have one favorite part from your PhD defense, which I didn't understand when I read the paper, but you said something along the lines, React doesn't change the outside or the environment, but it does change the insight through the context, putting more things in the context. You're not actually changing any of the tools around you to work for you, but you're changing how the model thinks. And I think that was like a very profound thing when I, not that I've been using these tools for like 18 months. I'm like, I understand what you meant, but like to say that at the time you did the PhD defense was not trivial. Yeah.Shunyu [00:04:41]: Another way to put it is like thinking can be an extra tool that's useful.Alessio [00:04:47]: Makes sense. Checks out.Swyx [00:04:49]: Who would have thought? I think it's also more controversial within his world because everyone was trying to use RL for agents. And this is like the first kind of zero gradient type approach. Yeah.Shunyu [00:05:01]: I think the bigger kind of historical context is that we have this two big branches of AI. So if you think about RL, right, that's pretty much the equivalent of agent at a time. And it's like agent is equivalent to reinforcement learning and reinforcement learning is equivalent to whatever game environment they're using, right? Atari game or go or whatever. So you have like a pretty much, you know, you have a biased kind of like set of methodologies in terms of reinforcement learning and represents agents. On the other hand, I think NLP is like a historical kind of subject. It's not really into agents, right? It's more about reasoning. It's more about solving those concrete tasks. And if you look at SEL, right, like each task has its own track, right? Summarization has a track, question answering has a track. So I think really it's about rethinking agents in terms of what could be the new environments that we came to have is not just Atari games or whatever video games, but also those text games or language games. And also thinking about, could there be like a more general kind of methodology beyond just designing specific pipelines for each NLP task? That's like the bigger kind of context, I would say.Alessio [00:06:14]: Is there an inspiration spark moment that you remember or how did you come to this? We had Trida on the podcast and he mentioned he was really inspired working with like systems people to think about Flash Attention. What was your inspiration journey?Shunyu [00:06:27]: So actually before React, I spent the first two years of my PhD focusing on text-based games, or in other words, text adventure games. It's a very kind of small kind of research area and quite ad hoc, I would say. And there are like, I don't know, like 10 people working on that at the time. And have you guys heard of Zork 1, for example? So basically the idea is you have this game and you have text observations, like you see a monster, you see a dragon.Swyx [00:06:57]: You're eaten by a grue.Shunyu [00:06:58]: Yeah, you're eaten by a grue. And you have actions like kill the grue with a sword or whatever. And that's like a very typical setup of a text game. So I think one day after I've seen all the GPT-3 stuff, I just think about, you know, how can I solve the game? Like why those AI, you know, machine learning methods are pretty stupid, but we are pretty good at solving the game relatively, right? So for the context, the predominant method to solve this text game is obviously reinforcement learning. And the idea is you just try out an arrow in those games for like millions of steps and you kind of just overfit to the game. But there's no language understanding at all. And I'm like, why can't I solve the game better? And it's kind of like, because we think about the game, right? Like when we see this very complex text observation, like you see a grue and you might see a sword, you know, in the right of the room and you have to go through the wooden door to go to that room. You will think, you know, oh, I have to kill the monster and to kill that monster, I have to get the sword, I have to get the sword, I have to go, right? And this kind of thinking actually helps us kind of throw shots off the game. And it's like, why don't we also enable the text agents to think? And that's kind of the prototype of React. And I think that's actually very interesting because the prototype, I think, was around November of 2021. So that's even before like chain of thought or whatever came up. So we did a bunch of experiments in the text game, but it was not really working that well. Like those text games are just too hard. I think today it's still very hard. Like if you use GPD 4 to solve it, it's still very hard. So the change came when I started the internship in Google. And apparently Google care less about text game, they care more about what's more practical. So pretty much I just reapplied the idea, but to more practical kind of environments like Wikipedia or simpler text games like Alphard, and it just worked. It's kind of like you first have the idea and then you try to find the domains and the problems to demonstrate the idea, which is, I would say, different from most of the AI research, but it kind of worked out for me in that case.Swyx [00:09:09]: For Harrison, when you were implementing React, what were people applying React to in the early days?Harrison [00:09:14]: I think the first demo we did probably had like a calculator tool and a search tool. So like general things, we tried to make it pretty easy to write your own tools and plug in your own things. And so this is one of the things that we've seen in LangChain is people who build their own applications generally write their own tools. Like there are a few common ones. I'd say like the three common ones might be like a browser, a search tool, and a code interpreter. But then other than that-Swyx [00:09:37]: The LMS. Yep.Harrison [00:09:39]: Yeah, exactly. It matches up very nice with that. And we actually just redid like our integrations docs page, and if you go to the tool section, they like highlight those three, and then there's a bunch of like other ones. And there's such a long tail of other ones. But in practice, like when people go to production, they generally have their own tools or maybe one of those three, maybe some other ones, but like very, very few other ones. So yeah, I think the first demos was a search and a calculator one. And there's- What's the data set?Shunyu [00:10:04]: Hotpot QA.Harrison [00:10:05]: Yeah. Oh, so there's that one. And then there's like the celebrity one by the same author, I think.Swyx [00:10:09]: Olivier Wilde's boyfriend squared. Yeah. 0.23. Yeah. Right, right, right.Harrison [00:10:16]: I'm forgetting the name of the author, but there's-Swyx [00:10:17]: I was like, we're going to over-optimize for Olivier Wilde's boyfriend, and it's going to change next year or something.Harrison [00:10:21]: There's a few data sets kind of like in that vein that require multi-step kind of like reasoning and thinking. So one of the questions I actually had for you in this vein, like the React paper, there's a few things in there, or at least when I think of that, there's a few things that I think of. There's kind of like the specific prompting strategy. Then there's like this general idea of kind of like thinking and then taking an action. And then there's just even more general idea of just like taking actions in a loop. Today, like obviously language models have changed a lot. We have tool calling. The specific prompting strategy probably isn't used super heavily anymore. Would you say that like the concept of React is still used though? Or like do you think that tool calling and running tool calling in a loop, is that ReactSwyx [00:11:02]: in your mind?Shunyu [00:11:03]: I would say like it's like more implicitly used than explicitly used. To be fair, I think the contribution of React is actually twofold. So first is this idea of, you know, we should be able to use calls in a very general way. Like there should be a single kind of general method to handle interaction with various environments. I think React is the first paper to demonstrate the idea. But then I think later there are two form or whatever, and this becomes like a trivial idea. But I think at the time, that's like a pretty non-trivial thing. And I think the second contribution is this idea of what people call like inner monologue or thinking or reasoning or whatever, to be paired with tool use. I think that's still non-trivial because if you look at the default function calling or whatever, like there's no inner monologue. And in practice, that actually is important, especially if the tool that you use is pretty different from the training distribution of the language model. I think those are the two main things that are kind of inherited.Harrison [00:12:10]: On that note, I think OpenAI even recommended when you're doing tool calling, it's sometimes helpful to put a thought field in the tool, along with all the actual acquired arguments,Swyx [00:12:19]: and then have that one first.Harrison [00:12:20]: So it fills out that first, and they've shown that that's yielded better results. The reason I ask is just like this same concept is still alive, and I don't know whether to call it a React agent or not. I don't know what to call it. I think of it as React, like it's the same ideas that were in the paper, but it's obviously a very different implementation at this point in time. And so I just don't know what to call it.Shunyu [00:12:40]: I feel like people will sometimes think more in terms of different tools, right? Because if you think about a web agent versus, you know, like a function calling agent, calling a Python API, you would think of them as very different. But in some sense, the methodology is the same. It depends on how you view them, right? I think people will tend to think more in terms of the environment and the tools rather than the methodology. Or, in other words, I think the methodology is kind of trivial and simple, so people will try to focus more on the different tools. But I think it's good to have a single underlying principle of those things.Alessio [00:13:17]: How do you see the surface of React getting molded into the model? So a function calling is a good example of like, now the model does it. What about the thinking? Now most models that you use kind of do chain of thought on their own, they kind of produce steps. Do you think that more and more of this logic will be in the model? Or do you think the context window will still be the main driver of reasoning and thinking?Shunyu [00:13:39]: I think it's already default, right? You do some chain of thought and you do some tool call, the cost of adding the chain of thought is kind of relatively low compared to other things. So it's not hurting to do that. And I think it's already kind of common practice, I would say.Swyx [00:13:56]: This is a good place to bring in either Tree of Thought or Reflection, your pick.Shunyu [00:14:01]: Maybe Reflection, to respect the time order, I would say.Swyx [00:14:05]: Any backstory as well, like the people involved with NOAA and the Princeton group. We talked about this offline, but people don't understand how these research pieces come together and this ideation.Shunyu [00:14:15]: I think Reflection is mostly NOAA's work, I'm more like advising kind of role. The story is, I don't remember the time, but one day we just see this pre-print that's like Reflection and Autonomous Agent with memory or whatever. And it's kind of like an extension to React, which uses this self-reflection. I'm like, oh, somehow you've become very popular. And NOAA reached out to me, it's like, do you want to collaborate on this and make this from an archive pre-print to something more solid, like a conference submission? I'm like, sure. We started collaborating and we remain good friends today. And I think another interesting backstory is NOAA was contacted by OpenAI at the time. It's like, this is pretty cool, do you want to just work at OpenAI? And I think Sierra also reached out at the same time. It's like, this is pretty cool, do you want to work at Sierra? And I think NOAA chose Sierra, but it's pretty cool because he was still like a second year undergrad and he's a very smart kid.Swyx [00:15:16]: Based on one paper. Oh my god.Shunyu [00:15:19]: He's done some other research based on programming language or chemistry or whatever, but I think that's the paper that got the attention of OpenAI and Sierra.Swyx [00:15:28]: For those who haven't gone too deep on it, the way that you present the inside of React, can you do that also for reflection? Yeah.Shunyu [00:15:35]: I think one way to think of reflection is that the traditional idea of reinforcement learning is you have a scalar reward and then you somehow back-propagate the signal of the scalar reward to the rest of your neural network through whatever algorithm, like policy grading or A2C or whatever. And if you think about the real life, most of the reward signal is not scalar. It's like your boss told you, you should have done a better job in this, but you could jump on that or whatever. It's not like a scalar reward, like 29 or something. I think in general, humans deal more with long scalar reward, or you can say language feedback. And the way that they deal with language feedback also has this back-propagation process, right? Because you start from this, you did a good job on job B, and then you reflect what could have been done differently to change to make it better. And you kind of change your prompt, right? Basically, you change your prompt on how to do job A and how to do job B, and then you do the whole thing again. So it's really like a pipeline of language where in self-graded descent, you have something like text reasoning to replace those gradient descent algorithms. I think that's one way to think of reflection.Harrison [00:16:47]: One question I have about reflection is how general do you think the algorithm there is? And so for context, I think at LangChain and at other places as well, we found it pretty easy to implement React in a standard way. You plug in any tools and it kind of works off the shelf, can get it up and running. I don't think we have an off-the-shelf kind of implementation of reflection and kind of the general sense. I think the concepts, absolutely, we see used in different kind of specific cognitive architectures, but I don't think we have one that comes off the shelf. I don't think any of the other frameworks have one that comes off the shelf. And I'm curious whether that's because it's not general enough or it's complex as well, because it also requires running it more times.Swyx [00:17:28]: Maybe that's not feasible.Harrison [00:17:30]: I'm curious how you think about the generality, complexity. Should we have one that comes off the shelf?Shunyu [00:17:36]: I think the algorithm is general in the sense that it's just as general as other algorithms, if you think about policy grading or whatever, but it's not applicable to all tasks, just like other algorithms. So you can argue PPO is also general, but it works better for those set of tasks, but not on those set of tasks. I think it's the same situation for reflection. And I think a key bottleneck is the evaluator, right? Basically, you need to have a good sense of the signal. So for example, if you are trying to do a very hard reasoning task, say mathematics, for example, and you don't have any tools, you're operating in this chain of thought setup, then reflection will be pretty hard because in order to reflect upon your thoughts, you have to have a very good evaluator to judge whether your thought is good or not. But that might be as hard as solving the problem itself or even harder. The principle of self-reflection is probably more applicable if you have a good evaluator, for example, in the case of coding. If you have those arrows, then you can just reflect on that and how to solve the bug andSwyx [00:18:37]: stuff.Shunyu [00:18:38]: So I think another criteria is that it depends on the application, right? If you have this latency or whatever need for an actual application with an end-user, the end-user wouldn't let you do two hours of tree-of-thought or reflection, right? You need something as soon as possible. So in that case, maybe this is better to be used as a training time technique, right? You do those reflection or tree-of-thought or whatever, you get a lot of data, and then you try to use the data to train your model better. And then in test time, you still use something as simple as React, but that's already improved.Alessio [00:19:11]: And if you think of the Voyager paper as a way to store skills and then reuse them, how would you compare this reflective memory and at what point it's just ragging on the memory versus you want to start to fine-tune some of them or what's the next step once you get a very long reflective corpus? Yeah.Shunyu [00:19:30]: So I think there are two questions here. The first question is, what type of information or memory are you considering, right? Is it like semantic memory that stores knowledge about the word, or is it the episodic memory that stores trajectories or behaviors, or is it more of a procedural memory like in Voyager's case, like skills or code snippets that you can use to do actions, right?Swyx [00:19:54]: That's one dimension.Shunyu [00:19:55]: And the second dimension is obviously how you use the memory, either retrieving from it, using it in the context, or fine-tuning it. I think the Cognitive Architecture for Language Agents paper has a good categorization of all the different combinations. And of course, which way you use depends on the concrete application and the concrete need and the concrete task. But I think in general, it's good to think of those systematic dimensions and all the possible options there.Swyx [00:20:25]: Harrison also has in LangMEM, I think you did a presentation in my meetup, and I think you've done it at a couple other venues as well. User state, semantic memory, and append-only state, I think kind of maps to what you just said.Shunyu [00:20:38]: What is LangMEM? Can I give it like a quick...Harrison [00:20:40]: One of the modules of LangChain for a long time has been something around memory. And I think we're still obviously figuring out what that means, as is everyone kind of in the space. But one of the experiments that we did, and one of the proof of concepts that we did was, technically what it was is you would basically create threads, you'd push messages to those threads in the background, we process the data in a few ways. One, we put it into some semantic store, that's the semantic memory. And then two, we do some extraction and reasoning over the memories to extract. And we let the user define this, but extract key facts or anything that's of interest to the user. Those aren't exactly trajectories, they're maybe more closer to the procedural memory. Is that how you'd think about it or classify it?Shunyu [00:21:22]: Is it like about knowledge about the word, or is it more like how to do something?Swyx [00:21:27]: It's reflections, basically.Harrison [00:21:28]: So in generative worlds.Shunyu [00:21:30]: Generative agents.Swyx [00:21:31]: The Smallville. Yeah, the Smallville one.Harrison [00:21:33]: So the way that they had their memory there was they had the sequence of events, and that's kind of like the raw events that happened. But then every N events, they'd run some synthesis over those events for the LLM to insert its own memory, basically. It's that type of memory.Swyx [00:21:49]: I don't know how that would be classified.Shunyu [00:21:50]: I think of that as more of the semantic memory, but to be fair, I think it's just one way to think of that. But whether it's semantic memory or procedural memory or whatever memory, that's like an abstraction layer. But in terms of implementation, you can choose whatever implementation for whatever memory. So they're totally kind of orthogonal. I think it's more of a good way to think of the things, because from the history of cognitive science and cognitive architecture and how people study even neuroscience, that's the way people think of how the human brain organizes memory. And I think it's more useful as a way to think of things. But it's not like for semantic memory, you have to do this kind of way to retrieve or fine-tune, and for procedural memory, you have to do that. I think those are totally orthogonal kind of dimensions.Harrison [00:22:34]: How much background do you have in cognitive sciences, and how much do you model some of your thoughts on?Shunyu [00:22:40]: That's a great question, actually. I think one of the undergrad influences for my follow-up research is I was doing an internship at MIT's Computational Cognitive Science Lab with Josh Tannenbaum, and he's a very famous cognitive scientist. And I think a lot of his ideas still influence me today, like thinking of things in computational terms and getting interested in language and a lot of stuff, or even developing psychology kind of stuff. So I think it still influences me today.Swyx [00:23:14]: As a developer that tried out LangMEM, the way I view it is just it's a materialized view of a stream of logs. And if anything, that's just useful for context compression. I don't have to use the full context to run it over everything. But also it's kind of debuggable. If it's wrong, I can show it to the user, the user can manually fix it, and I can carry on. That's a really good analogy. I like that. I'm going to steal that. Sure. Please, please. You know I'm bullish on memory databases. I guess, Tree of Thoughts? Yeah, Tree of Thoughts.Shunyu [00:23:39]: I feel like I'm relieving the defense in like a podcast format. Yeah, no.Alessio [00:23:45]: I mean, you had a banger. Well, this is the one where you're already successful and we just highlight the glory. It was really good. You mentioned that since thinking is kind of like taking an action, you can use action searching algorithms to think of thinking. So just like you will use Tree Search to find the next thing. And the idea behind Tree of Thought is that you generate all these possible outcomes and then find the best tree to get to the end. Maybe back to the latency question, you can't really do that if you have to respond in real time. So what are maybe some of the most helpful use cases for things like this? Where have you seen people adopt it where the high latency is actually worth the wait?Shunyu [00:24:21]: For things that you don't care about latency, obviously. For example, if you're trying to do math, if you're just trying to come up with a proof. But I feel like one type of task is more about searching for a solution. You can try a hundred times, but if you find one solution, that's good. For example, if you're finding a math proof or if you're finding a good code to solve a problem or whatever, I think another type of task is more like reacting. For example, if you're doing customer service, you're like a web agent booking a ticket for an end user. Those are more reactive kind of tasks, or more real-time tasks. You have to do things fast. They might be easy, but you have to do it reliably. And you care more about can you solve 99% of the time out of a hundred. But for the type of search type of tasks, then you care more about can I find one solution out of a hundred. So it's kind of symmetric and different.Alessio [00:25:11]: Do you have any data or intuition from your user base? What's the split of these type of use cases? How many people are doing more reactive things and how many people are experimenting with deep, long search?Harrison [00:25:23]: I would say React's probably the most popular. I think there's aspects of reflection that get used. Tree of thought, probably the least so. There's a great tweet from Jason Wei, I think you're now a colleague, and he was talking about prompting strategies and how he thinks about them. And I think the four things that he had was, one, how easy is it to implement? How much compute does it take? How many tasks does it solve? And how much does it improve on those tasks? And I'd add a fifth, which is how likely is it to be relevant when the next generation of models come out? And I think if you look at those axes and then you look at React, reflection, tree of thought, it tracks that the ones that score better are used more. React is pretty easy to implement. Tree of thought's pretty hard to implement. The amount of compute, yeah, a lot more for tree of thought. The tasks and how much it improves, I don't have amazing visibility there. But I think if we're comparing React versus tree of thought, React just dominates the first two axes so much that my question around that was going to be like, how do you think about these prompting strategies, cognitive architectures, whatever you want to call them? When you're thinking of them, what are the axes that you're judging them on in your head when you're thinking whether it's a good one or a less good one?Swyx [00:26:38]: Right.Shunyu [00:26:39]: Right. I think there is a difference between a prompting method versus research, in the sense that for research, you don't really even care about does it actually work on practical tasks or does it help? Whatever. I think it's more about the idea or the principle, right? What is the direction that you're unblocking and whatever. And I think for an actual prompting method to solve a concrete problem, I would say simplicity is very important because the simpler it is, the less decision you have to make about it. And it's easier to design. It's easier to propagate. And it's easier to do stuff. So always try to be as simple as possible. And I think latency obviously is important. If you can do things fast and you don't want to do things slow. And I think in terms of the actual prompting method to use for a particular problem, I think we should all be in the minimalist kind of camp, right? You should try the minimum thing and see if it works. And if it doesn't work and there's absolute reason to add something, then you add something, right? If there's absolute reason that you need some tool, then you should add the tool thing. If there's absolute reason to add reflection or whatever, you should add that. Otherwise, if a chain of thought can already solve something, then you don't even need to use any of that.Harrison [00:27:57]: Yeah. Or if it's just better prompting can solve it. Like, you know, you could add a reflection step or you could make your instructions a little bit clearer.Swyx [00:28:03]: And it's a lot easier to do that.Shunyu [00:28:04]: I think another interesting thing is like, I personally have never done those kind of like weird tricks. I think all the prompts that I write are kind of like just talking to a human, right? It's like, I don't know. I never say something like, your grandma is dying and you have to solve it. I mean, those are cool, but I feel like we should all try to solve things in a very intuitive way. Just like talking to your co-worker. That should work 99% of the time. That's my personal take.Swyx [00:28:29]: The problem with how language models, at least in the GPC 3 era, was that they over-optimized to some sets of tokens in sequence. So like reading the Kojima et al. paper that was listing step-by-step, like he tried a bunch of them and they had wildly different results. It should not be the case, but it is the case. And hopefully we're getting better there.Shunyu [00:28:51]: Yeah. I think it's also like a timing thing in the sense that if you think about this whole line of language model, right? Like at the time it was just like a text generator. We don't have any idea how it's going to be used, right? And obviously at the time you will find all kinds of weird issues because it's not trained to do any of that, right? But then I think we have this loop where once we realize chain of thought is important or agent is important or tool using is important, what we see is today's language models are heavily optimized towards those things. So I think in some sense they become more reliable and robust over those use cases. And you don't need to do as much prompt engineering tricks anymore to solve those things. I feel like in some sense, I feel like prompt engineering even is like a slightly negative word at the time because it refers to all those kind of weird tricks that you have to apply. But I think we don't have to do that anymore. Like given today's progress, you should just be able to talk to like a coworker. And if you're clear and concrete and being reasonable, then it should do reasonable things for you.Swyx [00:29:51]: Yeah. The way I put this is you should not be a prompt engineer because it is the goal of the big labs to put you out of a job.Shunyu [00:29:58]: You should just be a good communicator. Like if you're a good communicator to humans, you should be a good communicator to languageSwyx [00:30:02]: models.Harrison [00:30:03]: That's the key though, because oftentimes people aren't good communicators to these language models and that is a very important skill and that's still messing around with the prompt. And so it depends what you're talking about when you're saying prompt engineer.Shunyu [00:30:14]: But do you think it's like very correlated with like, are they like a good communicator to humans? You know, it's like.Harrison [00:30:20]: It may be, but I also think I would say on average, people are probably worse at communicating with language models than to humans right now, at least, because I think we're still figuring out how to do it. You kind of expect it to be magical and there's probably some correlation, but I'd say there's also just like, people are worse at it right now than talking to humans.Shunyu [00:30:36]: We should make it like a, you know, like an elementary school class or whatever, how toSwyx [00:30:41]: talk to language models. Yeah. I don't know. Very pro that. Yeah. Before we leave the topic of trees and searching, not specific about QSTAR, but there's a lot of questions about MCTS and this combination of tree search and language models. And I just had to get in a question there about how seriously should people take this?Shunyu [00:30:59]: Again, I think it depends on the tasks, right? So MCTS was magical for Go, but it's probably not as magical for robotics, right? So I think right now the problem is not even that we don't have good methodologies, it's more about we don't have good tasks. It's also very interesting, right? Because if you look at my citation, it's like, obviously the most cited are React, Refraction and Tree of Thought. Those are methodologies. But I think like equally important, if not more important line of my work is like benchmarks and environments, right? Like WebShop or SuiteVenture or whatever. And I think in general, what people do in academia that I think is not good is they choose a very simple task, like Alford, and then they apply overly complex methods to show they improve 2%. I think you should probably match the level of complexity of your task and your method. I feel like where tasks are kind of far behind the method in some sense, right? Because we have some good test-time approaches, like whatever, React or Refraction or Tree of Thought, or like there are many, many more complicated test-time methods afterwards. But on the benchmark side, we have made a lot of good progress this year, last year. But I think we still need more progress towards that, like better coding benchmark, better web agent benchmark, better agent benchmark, not even for web or code. I think in general, we need to catch up with tasks.Harrison [00:32:27]: What are the biggest reasons in your mind why it lags behind?Shunyu [00:32:31]: I think incentive is one big reason. Like if you see, you know, all the master paper are cited like a hundred times more than the task paper. And also making a good benchmark is actually quite hard. It's almost like a different set of skills in some sense, right? I feel like if you want to build a good benchmark, you need to be like a good kind of product manager kind of mindset, right? You need to think about why people should use your benchmark, why it's challenging, why it's useful. If you think about like a PhD going into like a school, right? The prior skill that expected to have is more about, you know, can they code this method and can they just run experiments and can solve that? I think building a benchmark is not the typical prior skill that we have, but I think things are getting better. I think more and more people are starting to build benchmarks and people are saying that it's like a way to get more impact in some sense, right? Because like if you have a really good benchmark, a lot of people are going to use it. But if you have a super complicated test time method, like it's very hard for people to use it.Harrison [00:33:35]: Are evaluation metrics also part of the reason? Like for some of these tasks that we might want to ask these agents or language models to do, is it hard to evaluate them? And so it's hard to get an automated benchmark. Obviously with SweetBench you can, and with coding, it's easier, but.Shunyu [00:33:50]: I think that's part of the skillset thing that I mentioned, because I feel like it's like a product manager because there are many dimensions and you need to strike a balance and it's really hard, right? If you want to make sense, very easy to autogradable, like automatically gradable, like either to grade or either to evaluate, then you might lose some of the realness or practicality. Or like it might be practical, but it might not be as scalable, right? For example, if you think about text game, human have pre-annotated all the rewards and all the language are real. So it's pretty good on autogradable dimension and the practical dimension. If you think about, you know, practical, like actual English being practical, but it's not scalable, right? It takes like a year for experts to build that game. So it's not really that scalable. And I think part of the reason that SweetBench is so popular now is it kind of hits the balance between these three dimensions, right? Easy to evaluate and being actually practical and being scalable. Like if I were to criticize upon some of my prior work, I think webshop, like it's my initial attempt to get into benchmark world and I'm trying to do a good job striking the balance. But obviously we make it all gradable and it's really scalable, but then I think the practicality is not as high as actually just using GitHub issues, right? Because you're just creating those like synthetic tasks.Harrison [00:35:13]: Are there other areas besides coding that jump to mind as being really good for being autogradable?Shunyu [00:35:20]: Maybe mathematics.Swyx [00:35:21]: Classic. Yeah. Do you have thoughts on alpha proof, the new DeepMind paper? I think it's pretty cool.Shunyu [00:35:29]: I think it's more of a, you know, it's more of like a confidence boost or like sometimes, you know, the work is not even about, you know, the technical details or the methodology that it chooses or the concrete results. I think it's more about a signal, right?Swyx [00:35:47]: Yeah. Existence proof. Yeah.Shunyu [00:35:50]: Yeah. It can be done. This direction is exciting. It kind of encourages people to work more towards that direction. I think it's more like a boost of confidence, I would say.Swyx [00:35:59]: Yeah. So we're going to focus more on agents now and, you know, all of us have a special interest in coding agents. I would consider Devin to be the sort of biggest launch of the year as far as AI startups go. And you guys in the Princeton group worked on Suiagents alongside of Suibench. Tell us the story about Suiagent. Sure.Shunyu [00:36:21]: I think it's kind of like a triology, it's actually a series of three works now. So actually the first work is called Intercode, but it's not as famous, I know. And the second work is called Suibench and the third work is called Suiagent. And I'm just really confused why nobody is working on coding. You know, it's like a year ago, but I mean, not everybody's working on coding, obviously, but a year ago, like literally nobody was working on coding. I was really confused. And the people that were working on coding are, you know, trying to solve human evil in like a sick-to-sick way. There's no agent, there's no chain of thought, there's no anything, they're just, you know, fine tuning the model and improve some points and whatever, like, I was really confused because obviously coding is the best application for agents because it's autogradable, it's super important, you can make everything like API or code action, right? So I was confused and I collaborated with some of the students in Princeton and we have this work called Intercode and the idea is, first, if you care about coding, then you should solve coding in an interactive way, meaning more like a Jupyter Notebook kind of way than just writing a program and seeing if it fails or succeeds and stop, right? You should solve it in an interactive way because that's exactly how humans solve it, right? You don't have to, you know, write a program like next token, next token, next token and stop and never do any edits and you cannot really use any terminal or whatever tool. It doesn't make sense, right? And that's the way people are solving coding at the time, basically like sampling a program from a language model without chain of thought, without tool call, without refactoring, without anything. So the first point is we should solve coding in a very interactive way and that's a very general principle that applies for various coding benchmarks. And also, I think you can make a lot of the agent task kind of like interactive coding. If you have Python and you can call any package, then you can literally also browse internet or do whatever you want, like control a robot or whatever. So that seems to be a very general paradigm. But obviously I think a bottleneck is at the time we're still doing, you know, very simple tasks like human eval or whatever coding benchmark people proposed. They were super hard in 2021, like 20%, but they're like 95% already in 2023. So obviously the next step is we need a better benchmark. And Carlos and John, which are the first authors of Swaybench, I think they come up with this great idea that we should just script GitHub and solve whatever human engineers are solving. And I think it's actually pretty easy to come up with the idea. And I think in the first week, they already made a lot of progress. They script the GitHub and they make all the same, but then there's a lot of painful info work and whatever, you know. I think the idea is super easy, but the engineering is super hard. And I feel like that's a very typical signal of a good work in the AI era now.Swyx [00:39:17]: I think also, I think the filtering was challenging, because if you look at open source PRs, a lot of them are just like, you know, fixing typos. I think it's challenging.Shunyu [00:39:27]: And to be honest, we didn't do a perfect job at the time. So if you look at the recent blog post with OpenAI, we improved the filtering so that it's more solvable.Swyx [00:39:36]: I think OpenAI was just like, look, this is a thing now. We have to fix this. These students just rushed it.Shunyu [00:39:45]: It's a good convergence of interests for me.Alessio [00:39:48]: Was that tied to you joining OpenAI? Or was that just unrelated?Shunyu [00:39:52]: It's a coincidence for me, but it's a good coincidence.Swyx [00:39:55]: There is a history of anytime a big lab adopts a benchmark, they fix it. Otherwise, it's a broken benchmark.Shunyu [00:40:03]: So naturally, once we propose swimmage, the next step is to solve it. But I think the typical way you solve something now is you collect some training samples, or you design some complicated agent method, and then you try to solve it. Either super complicated prompt, or you build a better model with more training data. But I think at the time, we realized that even before those things, there's a fundamental problem with the interface or the tool that you're supposed to use. Because that's like an ignored problem in some sense. What your tool is, or how that matters for your task. So what we found concretely is that if you just use the text terminal off the shelf as a tool for those agents, there's a lot of problems. For example, if you edit something, there's no feedback. So you don't know whether your edit is good or not. That makes the agent very confused and makes a lot of mistakes. There are a lot of small problems, you would say. Well, you can try to do prompt engineering and improve that, but it turns out to be actually very hard. We realized that the interface design is actually a very omitted part of agent design. So we did this switch agent work. And the key idea is just, even before you talk about what the agent is, you should talk about what the environment is. You should make sure that the environment is actually friendly to whatever agent you're trying to apply. That's the same idea for humans. Text terminal is good for some tasks, like git, pool, or whatever. But it's not good if you want to look at browser and whatever. Also, browser is a good tool for some tasks, but it's not a good tool for other tasks. We need to talk about how design interface, in some sense, where we should treat agents as our customers. It's like when we treat humans as a customer, we design human computer interfaces. We design those beautiful desktops or browsers or whatever, so that it's very intuitive and easy for humans to use. And this whole great subject of HCI is all about that. I think now the research idea of switch agent is just, we should treat agents as our customers. And we should do like, you know… AICI.Swyx [00:42:16]: AICI, exactly.Harrison [00:42:18]: So what are the tools that a suite agent should have, or a coding agent in general should have?Shunyu [00:42:24]: For suite agent, it's like a modified text terminal, which kind of adapts to a lot of the patterns of language models to make it easier for language models to use. For example, now for edit, instead of having no feedback, it will actually have a feedback of, you know, actually here you introduced like a syntax error, and you should probably want to fix that, and there's an ended error there. And that makes it super easy for the model to actually do that. And there's other small things, like how exactly you write arguments, right? Like, do you want to write like a multi-line edit, or do you want to write a single line edit? I think it's more interesting to think about the way of the development process of an ACI rather than the actual ACI for like a concrete application. Because I think the general paradigm is very similar to HCI and psychology, right? Basically, for how people develop HCIs, they do behavior experiments on humans, right? I do every test, right? Like, which interface is actually better? And I do those behavior experiments, kind of like psychology experiments to humans, and I change things. And I think what's really interesting for me, for this three-agent paper, is we can probably do the same thing for agents, right? We can do every test for those agents and do behavior tests. And through the process, we not only invent better interfaces for those agents, that's the practical value, but we also better understand agents. Just like when we do those A-B tests, we do those HCI, we better understand humans. Doing those ACI experiments, we actually better understand agents. And that's pretty cool.Harrison [00:43:51]: Besides that A-B testing, what are other processes that people can use to think about this in a good way?Swyx [00:43:57]: That's a great question.Shunyu [00:43:58]: And I think three-agent is an initial work. And what we do is the kind of the naive approach, right? You just try some interface, and you see what's going wrong, and then you try to fix that. We do this kind of iterative fixing. But I think what's really interesting is there'll be a lot of future directions that's very promising if we can apply some of the HCI principles more systematically into the interface design. I think that would be a very cool interdisciplinary research opportunity.Harrison [00:44:26]: You talked a lot about agent-computer interfaces and interactions. What about human-to-agent UX patterns? Curious for any thoughts there that you might have.Swyx [00:44:38]: That's a great question.Shunyu [00:44:39]: And in some sense, I feel like prompt engineering is about human-to-agent interface. But I think there can be a lot of interesting research done about... So prompting is about how humans can better communicate with the agent. But I think there could be interesting research on how agents can better communicate with humans, right? When to ask questions, how to ask questions, what's the frequency of asking questions. And I think those kinds of stuff could be very cool research.Harrison [00:45:07]: Yeah, I think some of the most interesting stuff that I saw here was also related to coding with Devin from Cognition. And they had the three or four different panels where you had the chat, the browser, the terminal, and I guess the code editor as well.Swyx [00:45:19]: There's more now.Harrison [00:45:19]: There's more. Okay, I'm not up to date. Yeah, I think they also did a good job on ACI.Swyx [00:45:25]: I think that's the main learning I have from Devin. They cracked that. Actually, there was no foundational planning breakthrough. The planner is actually pretty simple, but ACI that they broke through on.Shunyu [00:45:35]: I think making the tool good and reliable is probably like 90% of the whole agent. Once the tool is actually good, then the agent design can be much, much simpler. On the other hand, if the tool is bad, then no matter how much you put into the agent design, planning or search or whatever, it's still going to be trash.Harrison [00:45:53]: Yeah, I'd argue the same. Same with like context and instructions. Like, yeah, go hand in hand.Alessio [00:46:00]: On the tool, how do you think about the tension of like, for both of you, I mean, you're building a library, so even more for you. The tension between making now a language or a library that is like easy for the agent to grasp and write versus one that is easy for like the human to grasp and write. Because, you know, the trend is like more and more code gets written by the agent. So why wouldn't you optimize the framework to be as easy as possible for the model versus for the person?Swyx [00:46:24]: I think it's possible to design an interfaceShunyu [00:46:25]: that's both friendly to humans and agents. But what do you think?Harrison [00:46:29]: We haven't thought about that from the perspective, like we're not trying to design LangChain or LangGraph to be friendly. But I mean, I think to be friendly for agents to write.Swyx [00:46:42]: But I mean, I think we see this with like,Harrison [00:46:43]: I saw some paper that used TypeScript notation instead of JSON notation for tool calling and it got a lot better performance. So it's definitely a thing. I haven't really heard of anyone designing like a syntax or a language explicitly for agents, but there's clearly syntaxes that are better.Shunyu [00:46:59]: I think function calling is a good example where it's like a good interface for both human programmers and for agents, right? Like for developers, it's actually a very friendly interface because it's very concrete and you don't have to do prompt engineering anymore. You can be very systematic. And for models, it's also pretty good, right? Like it can use all the existing coding content. So I think we need more of those kinds of designs.Swyx [00:47:21]: I will mostly agree and I'll slightly disagree in terms of this, which is like, whether designing for humans also overlaps with designing for AI. So Malte Ubo, who's the CTO of Vercel, who is creating basically JavaScript's competitor to LangChain, they're observing that basically, like if the API is easy to understand for humans, it's actually much easier to understand for LLMs, for example, because they're not overloaded functions. They don't behave differently under different contexts. They do one thing and they always work the same way. It's easy for humans, it's easy for LLMs. And like that makes a lot of sense. And obviously adding types is another one. Like type annotations only help give extra context, which is really great. So that's the agreement. And then a disagreement is that when I use structured output to do my chain of thought, I have found that I change my field names to hint to the LLM of what the field is supposed to do. So instead of saying topics, I'll say candidate topics. And that gives me a better result because the LLM was like, ah, this is just a draft thing I can use for chain of thought. And instead of like summaries, I'll say topic summaries to link the previous field to the current field. So like little stuff like that, I find myself optimizing for the LLM where I, as a human, would never do that. Interesting.Shunyu [00:48:32]: It's kind of like the way you optimize the prompt, it might be different for humans and for machines. You can have a common ground that's both clear for humans and agents, but to improve the human performance versus improving the agent performance, they might move to different directions.Swyx [00:48:48]: Might move different directions. There's a lot more use of metadata as well, like descriptions, comments, code comments, annotations and stuff like that. Yeah.Harrison [00:48:56]: I would argue that's just you communicatingSwyx [00:48:58]: to the agent what it should do.Harrison [00:49:00]: And maybe you need to communicate a little bit more than to humans because models aren't quite good enough yet.Swyx [00:49:06]: But like, I don't think that's crazy.Harrison [00:49:07]: I don't think that's like- It's not crazy.Swyx [00:49:09]: I will bring this in because it just happened to me yesterday. I was at the cursor office. They held their first user meetup and I was telling them about the LLM OS concept and why basically every interface, every tool was being redesigned for AIs to use rather than humans. And they're like, why? Like, can we just use Bing and Google for LLM search? Why must I use Exa? Or what's the other one that you guys work with?Harrison [00:49:32]: Tavilli.Swyx [00:49:33]: Tavilli. Web Search API dedicated for LLMs. What's the difference?Shunyu [00:49:36]: Exactly. To Bing API.Swyx [00:49:38]: Exactly.Harrison [00:49:38]: There weren't great APIs for search. Like the best one, like the one that we used initially in LangChain was SERP API, which is like maybe illegal. I'm not sure.Swyx [00:49:49]: And like, you know,Harrison [00:49:52]: and now there are like venture-backed companies.Swyx [00:49:53]: Shout out to DuckDuckGo, which is free.Harrison [00:49:55]: Yes, yes.Swyx [00:49:56]: Yeah.Harrison [00:49:56]: I do think there are some differences though. I think you want, like, I think generally these APIs try to return small amounts of text information, clear legible field. It's not a massive JSON blob. And I think that matters. I think like when you talk about designing tools, it's not only the, it's the interface in the entirety, not only the inputs, but also the outputs that really matter. And so I think they try to make the outputs.Shunyu [00:50:18]: They're doing ACI.Swyx [00:50:19]: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.Harrison [00:50:20]: Really?Swyx [00:50:21]: Like there's a whole set of industries that are just being redone for ACI. It's weird. And so my simple answer to them was like the error messages. When you give error messages, they should be basically prompts for the LLM to take and then self-correct. Then your error messages get more verbose, actually, than you normally would with a human. Stuff like that. Like a little, honestly, it's not that big. Again, like, is this worth a venture-backed industry? Unless you can tell us. But like, I think Code Interpreter, I think is a new thing. I hope so.Alessio [00:50:52]: We invested in it to be so.Shunyu [00:50:53]: I think that's a very interesting point. You're trying to optimize to the extreme, then obviously they're going to be different. For example, the error—Swyx [00:51:00]: Because we take it very seriously. Right.Shunyu [00:51:01]: The error for like language model, the longer the better. But for humans, that will make them very nervous and very tired, right? But I guess the point is more like, maybe we should try to find a co-optimized common ground as much as possible. And then if we have divergence, then we should try to diverge. But it's more philosophical now.Alessio [00:51:19]: But I think like part of it is like how you use it. So Google invented the PageRank because ideally you only click on one link, you know, like the top three should have the answer. But with models, it's like, well, you can get 20. So those searches are more like semantic grouping in a way. It's like for this query, I'll return you like 20, 30 things that are kind of good, you know? So it's less about ranking and it's more about grouping.Shunyu [00:51:42]: Another fundamental thing about HCI is the difference between human and machine's kind of memory limit, right? So I think what's really interesting about this concept HCI versus HCI is interfaces that's optimized for them. You can kind of understand some of the fundamental characteristics, differences of humans and machines, right? Why, you know, if you look at find or whatever terminal command, you know, you can only look at one thing at a time or that's because we have a very small working memory. You can only deal with one thing at a time. You can only look at one paragraph of text at the same time. So the interface for us is by design, you know, a small piece of information, but more temporal steps. But for machines, that should be the opposite, right? You should just give them a hundred different results and they should just decide in context what's the most relevant stuff and trade off the context for temporal steps. That's actually also better for language models because like the cost is smaller or whatever. So it's interesting to connect those interfaces to the fundamental kind of differences of those.Harrison [00:52:43]: When you said earlier, you know, we should try to design these to maybe be similar as possible and diverge if we need to.Swyx [00:52:49]: I actually don't have a problem with them diverging nowHarrison [00:52:51]: and seeing venture-backed startups emerging now because we are different from machines code AI. And it's just so early on, like they may still look kind of similar and they may still be small differences, but it's still just so early. And I think we'll only discover more ways that they differ. And so I'm totally fine with them kind of like diverging earlySwyx [00:53:10]: and optimizing for the...Harrison [00:53:11]: I agree. I think it's more like, you know,Shunyu [00:53:14]: we should obviously try to optimize human interface just for humans. We're already doing that for 50 years. We should optimize agent interface just for agents, but we might also try to co-optimize both and see how far we can get. There's enough people to try all three directions. Yeah.Swyx [00:53:31]: There's a thesis I sometimes push, which is the sour lesson as opposed to the bitter lesson, which we're always inspired by human development, but actually AI develops its own path.Shunyu [00:53:40]: Right. We need to understand better, you know, what are the fundamental differences between those creatures.Swyx [00:53:45]: It's funny when really early on this pod, you were like, how much grounding do you have in cognitive development and human brain stuff? And I'm like

Burnie and Ashley discuss bed sharing, Marvel apologies, daily Olympians, competitive shooting, cheese sponsors, overstaying your welcome in big ways and Zork.Support our podcast at: https://www.patreon.com/morningsomewhere

My guest today is the American video game developer Steve Meretzky. Born and raised in Yonkers, New York, he attended MIT, where he earned a degree in construction management. In 1981, after two years spent working in the construction industry, a friend asked him if he would like to become a tester for Infocom, a publisher that specialised in interactive fiction. He agreed and was soon invited to write a game of his own, the science fiction game Planetfall.After he included a reference to Douglas Adam's Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy in the game, my guest was invited to collaborate with Adams in adapting the novel into a best-selling game. In 1988 he wrote A Mind Forever Voyaging, an ambitious and politically charged work that stretched the boundaries of what a video game could do ––and saw him become one of the first interactive fiction writers admitted to the Science Fiction Writers of America.After stints working for Blue Fang Games, Playdom and King, he is currently VP of design at the mobile games company PeopleFun.LINKSBBC Documentary from 1985 takes us inside Infocom.Play 30th Anniversary Edition of Hitchhiker's Guide in your browser.Google's AI experiment with Zork...Hire Ed Hawkins to voice your game. Be attitude for gains. https://plus.acast.com/s/my-perfect-console. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Zork I is a timeless classic that continues to captivate players with its rich storytelling, challenging puzzles, and immersive world. Whether you're a seasoned gamer or new to the genre, this game offers a unique and rewarding experience that stands the test of time. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/ongamecast/support

my experience with Zork was a highly enjoyable and unforgettable journey into a world of fantasy, adventure, and mystery. The game's immersive world-building, engaging storytelling, challenging puzzles, and diverse characters all worked together seamlessly to create a truly memorable gaming experience. Despite its simple text-based format, Zork managed to captivate me from start to finish, challenging my mind, sparking my imagination, and leaving me hungry for more. If you're a fan of classic adventure games, intricate puzzle design, or immersive storytelling, I highly recommend giving Zork a try. You won't be disappointed. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/ongamecast/support

The Stupid History of ZorkBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-stupid-history-minute--4965707/support.

Ever wanted to know what it was like to play a text adventure back in the day? Join us as we poke around the edges of the Great Underground Empire and promptly get lost, stumped, and even die a few times.

There's plenty to chat about coming out of Gather Round. The Pies and Swans have the bye and we'll be without big dogs like Nick Daicos, Isaac Heeney and Brodie Grundy. What are the key trade plans this week? Move on James Jordon? Get to Sam Flanders or Dayne Zorko? Do we need to get Sam Clohesy? Roy, Calvin and Warnie cover plenty in a bumper episode. Episode Guide 1:00 - Warnie took a few more bites of the elephant. 3:50 - Calvin doesn't have any player in the top five ranked Fantasy players. 7:15 - Tom Green only scored 88 this week. 9:45 - With more than 20 mins on the bench in the last quarter, Massimo D'Ambrosio gets Warnie's negative three. 14:00 - Jeremy Sharp got the five votes in the Michael Barlow Medal after racking up a ton. 18:30 - The Bulldogs' sub duo of Jack Macrae and Caleb Daniel were Warnie's first two forwards selected in Draft. 21:00 - Which bye players do you hold and trade? 25:15 - "James Jordon to Sam Flanders" is the ideal trade this week" ... but what is Roy's flag? 29:00 - Gold Coast rookie Sam Clohesy is almost the must-have of the week. 36:00 - Is there a worry with Rowan Marshall after Ross Lyon's comments? 41:00 - Charlie Comben is an option under $400k after scoring 107. 44:30 - Most traded players and The Traders' early moves are revealed. 46:30 - Questions from social media - follow @AFLFantasy on Twitter, @aflfantasy on Instagram and like the Official AFL Fantasy facebook page. 49:10 - "I cannot tick off Jeremy McGovern". 56:00 - Calvin suggests Touk Miller is an under-priced premium. 58:30 - Jordan Clark has been a great player this year with his 90 scores every week. 59:10 - Can we trade a gun rookie? - - - - Find more from Roy, Calvin and Warnie. Click here for more content from The Traders. Like AFL Fantasy on Facebook. Follow @AFLFantasy on Instagram. Follow @AFLFantasy on X.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

To get you all excited for April 15th, Andrew joins Ben for a game review!  They were under the impression that math was fun… until they tried this game.  From relatively unknown game developer Intuit Inc. comes TurboTax!  Andrew and Ben are playing different versions of the game, so they share their varied experiences with each other and YOU!  Spoiler alert… as a game TurboTax is a dud, but as tax preparation software it's fairly solid.  Ben says, “NEEDS ZOMBIES!” 00:00:20 - The third person, dog of bag poop, and Andrew (the IRS) has set a deadline 00:02:20 - Ben and Andrew are playing different versions, and some facts about Intuit Inc. 00:04:42 - For ages 4+, Ben turns off the noise, weaker vibrations, callouses, and columns 00:06:51 - Canadian versions of TurboTax, Andrew the French spotter, and the circumflex  00:08:54 - The funny thing about French, Funk & Wagnalls, and the first AI Vice President    00:12:06 - The extra stuff and business edition, a serious side-thought, and back to taxes 00:14:41 - Some recent FTC drama, Andrew's example side-hustle, and tick infested scooters 00:16:30 - Starting with the story and narrative, kinda' like Zork, and Ben's story summary 00:18:43 - You can't get all the State DLC, 1099 talk, and don't get Ben started on stamps 00:21:23 - Thoughts on TurboTax's game mechanics, Andrew's solar buff, and the wrinkle 00:24:45 - Andrew's amended tax return side quest, round numbers, and the cost of coffee 00:26:06 - Too many rectangles, it's not a race, no customizable avatars, and the discussion 00:28:01 - FTC callback, micro transactions, currencies, upcoming regulations, and tips 00:32:02 - The passthrough, the Sega Genesis version, and why the previous year? 00:34:08 - Arizona and Oregon DLC, getting “the kicker,” and Ben's 3 ups and 3 downs 00:37:32 - Not compatible with Wave Financial, game saves, season passes, and zombies 00:39:34 - Andrew has stamps, not good for concrete, Ben's true story, and postage due 00:41:34 - Thumbs up or thumbs down, lathe adjacent, and borrowing the Office Assistant The FORMULA… Story and Narrative (SN) + Game Mechanics (GM) + Audiovisuals (AV) = a video game experience SN - Story / Narrative - With a name like TurboTax, you might think this is a racing game… you would be wrong!  In this mostly text based “adventure,” your story can be vastly different from someone else's due to the extensive story branching.  You start out playing the role of someone who has been giving money to a government over the course of a year, and now at the conclusion of the year, you are told you have to do math and fill out forms before April 15th. You are obviously the protagonist, but it's very difficult to determine who the adversary is.  GM - Game Mechanics - For the main part of the game you are either answering questions or if you prefer, filling out the forms directly.  That's really all of the gameplay… YAWN!  Even if you do fill out the forms and submit them to the government in time, you may still have to face a random boss fight in the form of an audit which can extend the playtime extensively.  AV - Audiovisuals - There is no music!  The UI is very simplistic… and not in a compelling way. There is a timer and a checkered flag at the top of the screen, but that's about as exciting as it gets.  Any sound effect in the game is utterly forgettable.  For the current generation of games, the graphics and audio should be much better.  Zombies are needed to add some excitement!   UPs - If you do a speed run you can be done very quickly - You can receive money which makes it seem like you have accomplished something - DLC is available for your State if you want to extend your gameplay DOWNs   - Although story the branching is extensive there are really only 2 endings either you owe or you get a refund and neither of those guarantee a “good ending” - Almost more fun to fill out the forms manually, at least with that you feel some sort of an accomplishment. - Extra data entry is required to actually submit your forms electronically unless you have a printer and stamps, but who other than Andrew has those handy. DO BUY… if you don't want to do your taxes manually DO PLAY… working tax payers have to play in some way  Note: In all seriousness, my REAL TurboTax experience was quick and easy.  I have a very simple return, so if your situation is similar I, would recommend it.  Follow Andrew / Partly Robot Industries on… His website: https://partlyrobot.com/ On Instagram: https://instagram.com/partlyrobot On TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@partlyrobot On Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/partlyrobot Follow Two Vague on… Our website: https://www.twovaguepodcast.com On Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/two_vague_podcast On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@twovaguepodcast On (ex-)Twitter: https://twitter.com/TwoVaguePodcast For show appearance and other inquiries, contact us at: twovaguepodcast@gmail.com References, Links, and Tags https://www.intuit.com/ https://www.ftc.gov/ #Podbean #DIYPodcast #ApplePodcast #VideoGames #Trivia #Comedy #Talkshow #2VP #TwoVaguePodcast #AprilFools #IntuitInc #TurboTax #TaxDay #NeedsZombies

Beware of grues, Goosebuddies! Your hosts Chad Quandt, Paul Ritchey, and Kevin Cole check out another Choose Your Own Adventure book based off one of the first adventure games ever: Zork! This 'What-Do-I-Do-Now" Book is Zork #1: The Forces of Krill by S. Eric Meretzky. Is Krill the Ganon of this world? Would we be shaking in our +1 Boots at the mention of his lizard men if we had played the original game? It seems Krill just likes hiding in holes in the ground, which isn't that much different than Tears of the Kingdom. We also discuss how delicious 'dino damage' used to look on toys. Enjoy the episode and stay alive! Book adventure begins: 12:00 OFF TOPICS: Daylight Savings Time, Bugs, Jurassic Park Battle Damage Toys, J. Kenji López-Alt, Bugs Part II You can support Goosebuds, get access to bonus episodes, join our secret Discord, and more at patreon.com/goosebuds   Dress your skeleton with Goosebuds apparel at goosebuds.store   Email: goosebuds@gmail.com   Twitter: @GoosebudsPod   Edited by Kevin Cole (@RealKevinCole)   Music by Seth Earnest (sethearnest.net)

Welcome to Dev Game Club, where this week we continue our series on rotoscoped games by hopping aboard The Last Express, the graphic adventure from Jordan Mechner and Smoking Car Productions of 1997 via publisher Broderbund. Dev Game Club looks at classic video games and plays through them over several episodes, providing commentary. Sections played: To Vienna (Tim) and past Epernay (Brett) Issues covered: our history with the game, playing the game on the iPad, the adventure game at the time, budget and sales, some history of the game, the edutainment industry, critical response, how many discs, cost of goods, the history of Epernay, generic settings vs the highly specific dates in the game, the overwhelm, jumping onto a moving train, photo research, pulling the brake, what to do with a dead body, trial and error, the various ways things can play out from just the first puzzle, rain in Europe in 1914, a digression into multiple speed CD-ROMs, getting into rotoscoping, a 3D modeled train with rotoscoped characters on top, chasing after a character in the hall, walk-boxes with Z values, the screen door effect, a linear game in space vs an open-ended game in time, synchronicity, the sense of a train trip, prioritizing animation vs input, mechanics-forward vs simulation-forward, what players care about and what they see. Games, people, and influences mentioned or discussed: Jordan Mechner, Broderbund, GoldenEye 007, Diablo, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, Fallout, Curse of Monkey Island, Riven, MYST, Jonathan Ackley, Larry Ahern, Quake, SW: Jedi Knight: DF2, Outlaws, LucasArts, Turok, Shadow Warrior, Hexen II, Duke Nuke'em, Postal, Age of Empires, Final Fantasy VII, Wing Commander: Prophecy, Xwing vs TIE Fighter, Colony Wars, Interstate '76, Mario Kart 64, Diddy Kong Racing, Grand Theft Auto, Gran Turismo, OddWorld, Sam and Max Hit the Road, Bethesda Game Studios, Bill Tiller, Day of the Tentacle, Sierra, Phantasmagoria, Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Father, Zoetrope Studios, Francis Ford Coppola, Smoking Car Productions, Tomi Pierce, Doug Carlston, Chris Remo, The Learning Company, Another World, Prince of Persia, Baldur's Gate, Final Fantasy VII, PlayStation, Sony, Daron Stinnett, Scream (series), Grim Fandango, Quadrilateral Cowboy, Blendo Games, Thirty Flights of Loving, Agatha Christie, Murder on the Orient Express, Paul Verhoeven, RoboCop, Basic Instinct, Starship Troopers, Elle, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Skyrim, Ron Gilbert, Waking Life, A Scanner Darkly, Deadline, Infocom, Zork, Ben Sarason, Arkham Asylum, Red Dead Redemption (series), RockStar, Tomb Raider (series), Brandon Fernandez, Core Design, Mario (series), Uncharted (series), Kirk Hamilton, Aaron Evers, Mark Garcia.  Next time: Finish the game (?)/ Explore further Errata and Extra: The lead animator on CMI was Mark Overney (!), and it was my mistake, I was thinking it had been Charlie Ramos Blendo Games is Brendon Chung Paul Verhoeven is Dutch, and he did direct Basic Instinct Links: The Last Express: Revisiting An Unsung Classic Twitch: brettdouville or timlongojr, instagram:timlongojr, Twitter: @devgameclub Discord DevGameClub@gmail.com

Few developers can boast careers spanning more than 4 decades, but today's guest, William Volk has developed games for virtually every platform released, covering every genre, including strategy, RPG, adventures, educational titles, puzzle games, and more. Sit back and enjoy the insights, memories, and experience of a true legend of the industry! Recorded October 2023 Get us on your mobile device: Android:  https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly92aWRlb2dhbWVuZXdzcm9vbXRpbWVtYWNoaW5lLmxpYnN5bi5jb20vcnNz iOS:      https://podcasts.apple.com/de/podcast/video-game-newsroom-time-machine And if you like what we are doing here at the podcast, don't forget to like us on your podcasting app of choice, YouTube, and/or support us on patreon! https://www.patreon.com/VGNRTM Send comments on twitter @videogamenewsr2 Or Instagram https://www.instagram.com/vgnrtm Or videogamenewsroomtimemachine@gmail.com Links: https://www.anagramquest.com/ https://www.mobygames.com/person/3264/william-d-volk/ He Put in a Bar, in the Back of His Car - https://youtu.be/pEQ_VLo4pBY?si=mw5p8i7-dlDo5-Zp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestake_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromemco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalon_Hill https://www.nytimes.com/1985/03/24/jobs/the-computer-telecommuters-say-theres-no-workplace-like-home.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Minsky https://www.mobygames.com/game/7390/ports-of-call/ https://www.mobygames.com/company/3165/aegis-interactive-entertainment/ https://www.macintoshrepository.org/6195-mac-challenger Infinite Loop - https://youtu.be/clxpPQbj234?si=aN1f215CSDnRmkVj https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LightWave_3D https://www.mobygames.com/game/9222/the-manhole/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperCard https://www.mobygames.com/game/1219/return-to-zork/ https://www.mobygames.com/game/44036/cosmic-osmo/ https://www.mobygames.com/company/434/cyan-worlds-inc/ https://www.mobygames.com/game/39698/rodneys-funscreen/ https://youtu.be/yZbJL5Egyzs?si=abJ5FJ_CS9O-wZju https://www.mobygames.com/company/42078/lightspan-inc/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realtime_Associates https://kidscreen.com/2001/10/01/lightspan-20011001/ https://psxdatacenter.com/games/U/L/LSP-010360.html https://www.gamezone.com/news/wayans_brothers_the_dozens_announced_at_e3/ https://www.pgconnects.com/hong-kong/speakers/william-volk/ https://www.gamedeveloper.com/production/william-volk-veteran-game-developer-mobile-pioneer https://apps.apple.com/us/app/trump-dump/id1070999857 https://www.apple.com/de/tv-pr/originals/extrapolations/ https://www.theclimatetrail.com/ https://www.calstate.edu/attend/student-services/Pages/esports.aspx https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Oscar-Clark/dp/1138428302 https://www.mobygames.com/game/52384/controller/ https://www.gamedeveloper.com/production/why-johnny-can-t-ship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act Copyright Karl Kuras

Season 5 Episode 25 Episode 161 News: Emulation / hacks / translations / homebrew games Infocom's ingenious code-porting tools for Zork and other games have been found Cozy PS2 title Boku no Natsuyasumi 2 has received a fan translation A collection of shaders to emulate the display of an NTSC signal through a CRT TV Shinsetsu Samurai Spirits Bushido Retsuden (Sam Sho RPG translation patch) Other odd or interesting things 'Atari 50' Is Getting More Games Via Free Updates, 12 Dropping Next Week Game Club Discussion: Double Dribble NBA Action ‘94  New Game Club Games: Chrono Trigger Dr. Mario 64   Game Club Link Tree Retro Game Club Discord server Bumpers: Raftronaut , Inverse Phase Threads, Facebook, Twitter, and  Instagram managed by: Zach Email us: email@retrogameclub.net ===================================== #retro #retrogames #retrogaming #videogames #classiccomputing #Infocom #Zork #PlayStation #RPGs #Atari #Atari50 #Basketball #DoubleDribble #NES #NBA #NBAAction94 #Genesis   

Rob and Ryan watched and break down Season 2, Episode 20 of the Big Bang Theory: The Hofstadter Isotope!**GIVE US A 5 STAR REVIEW ON APPLE PODCASTS AND BE ENTERED IN TO WIN A $100 GIFT CARD TO AMAZON! BETTER LISTEN TO THE EPISODE FOR DETAILS! Click the link below!https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/theoretical-nonsense-the-big-bang-theory-watch-a/id1623079414Don't forget to check out Rebecca's brisket video! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmZcfiSINyk00:12:11 - The Drake Equation00:29:46 - The differences between the Spider-Mans00:54:01 - Hellblazer Comic00:58:29 - Star Trek Crossover: Deep Space 9 + OG01:04:52 - The Zork buggy version01:09:49 - Sexiest underwear for men01:19:20 - "Couldn't be more wrong" Find us everywhere at: https://linktr.ee/theoreticalnonsense~~*CLICK THE LINK TO SEE OUR IQ POINT HISTORY TOO! *~~-------------------------------------------------Welcome to Theoretical Nonsense! If you're looking for a Big Bang Theory rewatch podcast blended with How Stuff Works, this is the podcast for you!  Hang out with Rob and Ryan where they watch each episode of The Big Bang Theory and break it down scene by scene, and fact by fact, and no spoilers! Ever wonder if the random information Sheldon says is true? We do the research and find out! Is curry a natural laxative, what's the story behind going postal, are fish night lights real? Watch the show with us every other week and join in on the discussion! Email us at theoreticalnonsensepod@gmail.com and we'll read your letter to us on the show! Even if it's bad! :) Music by Alex Grohl. Find official podcast on Apple, Stitcher, and Spotify https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/theoretical-nonsense-the-big-bang-theory-watch-a/id1623079414

Booting down; Unity, Drew Barrymore, Jennifer Hudson & Bill Maher have heard you & have been listening; so much water; Tesla class action; Wayne testing robotaxis in LA; TikTok tracking employees, introduces voluntary AI content labels; Google Bard now lets you double check answers by... Googling, settles privacy lawsuit; some of Elon's Neuralink implant monkeys have, indeed, died, but looking for human volunteers, blue checks to blue chips; Good Omens; the Wheel of Time; Amazon Prime Video adding ads; Russell Brand; Secret Chef; Star Trek; Sex Education; Slow Horses; Microsoft Paint; Mahjong; Apple Watch; Star Wars; Disneyland music; Descript; the Overton Paradox; Zork & retro gaming.Sponsors:Dark Web Academy - Head over to darkwebacademy.com and use code "gogfree" for complimentary access to ANY course!1Password - Get a great deal on the only password manager recommended by Grumpy Old Geeks! gog.show/1passwordPrivate Internet Access - Go to GOG.Show/vpn and sign up today. For a limited time only, you can get OUR favorite VPN for as little as $2.03 a month.Show notes at: https://gog.show/619FOLLOW UPUnity apologizes and promises to change its controversial game install fee policyMicrosoft's $69B Activision merger on track for green lightLas Vegas Authorities Want to Know How Much Water Companies Use Before Letting Them Move InFree Covid-19 TestsIN THE NEWSTesla Detroit Derivative Action SettlementWaymo begins testing the waters for a robotaxi service in Los AngelesTikTok Employees Recoil at Return-to-Office Tracker AppTikTok introduces a way to label AI-generated contentGoogle's AI assistant can now read your emails, plan trips, “double-check” answersGoogle settles California lawsuit over its location-privacy practicesGoogle Quietly Removes ‘Written By People' From Suggestions for Website OwnersHere are the details on the grisly deaths of Elon Musk's Neuralink monkeysElon Musk's Neuralink Seeks Volunteers for Brain Chip Implant StudyAirbnb Really Is Different NowMEDIA CANDYGood Omens Season 2The Wheel of TimeAmazon Prime Video will start showing ads from early next yearKate Winslet on War Photographer Lee Miller, and the Film She Was Born to MakeYouTube Demonetizes Russell Brand After Rape AllegationsSecret ChefSex Education season 4 review: A fine, if overstuffed, sendoffSlow Horses Season 3 Release Date Confirmed For December On Apple TV+The Pigeon Tunnel — Official Trailer | Apple TV+APPS & DOODADSMicrosoft Paint finally gets support for layers and transparencyMahjong Solitaire NETFLIXAmazon Restricts Authors to Self-Publishing Three Books a Day, a Totally Human AmountTHE DARK SIDE WITH DAVEThe CyberWireDave BittnerHacking HumansCaveatControl LoopApple Watch Ultra 2Star Wars Jedi: SurvivorDisneyland: Music Around the ParksYesterland!Disney's Polynesian Village Resort Music 6 Hour LoopEPCOT Theme Park Music & AmbienceDescript has added a new feature (in Beta) called “Regenerate.”The Overton ParadoxPlay Zork onlineCLOSING SHOUT-OUTSBritain Is Losing Its Precious PubsSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Dev Game Club, where this week we continue our series on 1991's Eye of the Beholder. We talk quite a bit about adaptation and the things that are not entirely.... fun... about D&D. Dev Game Club looks at classic video games and plays through them over several episodes, providing commentary. Sections played: Up to level 10 or 11 Issues covered: Discord Game Club, finding the dwarves, the injured dwarf, information as a reward, inconsistent locks, messages you can only read if you have a dwarf, using up keys and not knowing when you should use them, communities below ground, "Xanathar: he's kind of a big deal," history in the built environment, the sewer map, "feelies," wishing the computer would do the rules for us... or not?, translation of D&D, the problems of adaptation, diving into the movie, respawning hellhounds and imagining hell, what's a xorn?, puzzle opacity, good puzzles, holdover concepts that stick around, level connectivity, the pleasures of linking up segments of map, removing useful friction, games where there's not a lot of high hights nor low lows, podcast games, having to learn the world and feeling the mastery, great connections in Dark Souls, landmarking and not wanting a map. Games, people, and influences mentioned or discussed: D&D, Discord Game Club, Artimage, Mark Garcia, BioStats, Final Fantasy IX, Kotaku, Journey to the Center of the Earth, Temple of Elemental Evil, Infocom, Zork (series), Grim Fandango, Full Throttle, Republic Commando, Baldur's Gate (series), Diablo, Chris Pine, Ultima Underworld, Richard Garriott, System Shock, King's Quest, Assassin's Creed, World of Warcraft, Dark Souls, Ico, Dragon/Dungeon magazines, Kirk Hamilton, Aaron Evers.  Next time: Finish the game! Twitch: brettdouville or timlongojr, instagram:timlongojr, Twitter: @devgameclub Discord DevGameClub@gmail.com

In today's episode we're joined by multi-disciplinary artist and writer Liz Ryerson. Liz brings her background in music and game design to discuss scenes from the Coens' movies in which characters drift through the wide world of their story, and in their wanderings—be they pastoral, tacky, gnarly, or urbane—make discoveries without and within. Outro Music: Liz Ryerson - Village Theme Support Liz on Patreon and Bandcamp! Coens covered: Inside Llewyn Davis; Barton Fink; O Brother, Where Art Thou?; No Country for Old Men Plus: Twin Peaks s3e8, No Direction Home, I'm Not There, Mazes and Monsters, Thief, Deus Ex, Zork, Hitman, Prey, Problem Attic, Half-Life If you want to join the study group please follow TTWS on social media, tell your friends about it, and leave a rating/review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.  ***You can also support us directly at https://ko-fi.com/tothewhitesea*** For all things TTWS visit tothewhitesea.me – and join the Discord!

50 Years of Text Games: From Oregon Trail to A.I. Dungeon is an extensively researched book chronicling the first half-century of interactive fiction: video games made from words.  Covering one text game released in each year from 1971 to 2020, in-depth chapters dive into classics like Zork, Trade Wars, and Hitchhiker's Guide; beloved fan games like Galatea and Photopia; wild experiments from Dwarf Fortress to Howling Dogs; and breakout hits like 80 Days, Fallen London, and Lifeline. Over 600 pages of coverage and dozens of original maps and flowcharts help explain the structure and design of each game included. Aaron A. Reed has been creating and researching interactive stories for twenty years, focusing on understanding the many ways authors and players can tell stories together. He holds a PhD in interactive storytelling, and is currently based in California freelancing as a character and narrative consultant for games. Rudolf Inderst is a professor of Game Design with a focus on Digital Game Studies at the IU International University of Applied Science, editor of “Game Studies Watchlist”, a weekly messenger newsletter about Game Culture and curator of @gamestudies at tiktok. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

Back in my day, computer games didn't have fancy graphics or immersive sound. They just had plain old text, and we liked it! We look at the origins of the text-based adventure game and how these games are a creative challenge to make.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Welcome to Dev Game Club, where this week we continue our series on Plundered Hearts, the pirate romance text adventure, and also turning to a short bonus discussion about Twine games. We mostly discuss our takeaways before turning to the bonus discussion. Dev Game Club looks at classic video games and plays through them over several episodes, providing commentary. Podcast breakdown: 0:18 Takeaways 51:02 Break 51:12 Bonus Discussion Issues covered: text adventure length, an introductory adventure and the audience it sought, being unable to market, a diversion to Rogue Legacy 2, finding a parser bug, game pack-ins, losing a thing to the parser, a garter on a crocodile, waiting and responding to player choice, playtesting internally, not knowing to wait, inventory combination vs revisiting every location you've missed, failure-driven games, piecing clues together through trial and error, choosing your verbs carefully, whether there are multiple solutions, the hostility of a trial-and-error design, subverting your genre through mechanics, Tim's life as a series of flow charts, a structure still used today, flow charts for puzzle steps, working back from a problem to the solution, responding to your players, using good writing to provide a rich experience, interesting work coming from diverse sources, being playful with text, Twine as an environment, what you can do with good writing and simple tools, text effects, the approachability of the tools, personal games, an experimental game and interpretation, the structure of "howling dogs," simulation aspects, commentary on games, the default response and the "that's interesting," poetic/evocative/allusive tone, being in a browser and the affordances, a commentary on the games industry, the anxiety-provoking games, feeling seen, being exactly spot-on, a learning tool, the value of constraints. Games, people, and influences mentioned or discussed: Dark Souls, Zork, Infocom, Byte, Nibble, EGM, Nintendo Power, Rogue Legacy 2, Halo, LucasArts, Day of the Tentacle, Emily Short, Counterfeit Monkey, Tim Schafer, Dave Grossman, Dungeons & Dragons, MYST, Space Quest, King's Quest, Reed Knight, Ron Gilbert, Peter Pan, Errol Flynn, Geena Davis, Cutthroat Island, Matthew Modine, Activision, A Series of Unfortunate Events, Chris Klimas, Hypercard, howling dogs, Porpentine, The Writer Will Do Something, Matthew Seiji Burns, Tom Bissell, Game Developer magazine, Magical Wasteland, IF Comp, Andrew Plotkin, Meg Jayanth, Richard Hofmeier, Papers Please, Hot Pockets, Mountain Dew, Warhammer, Frog Fractions, Universal Paperclips, Frank Lantz, HP Lovecraft, Melville, Shakespeare, Mark Laidlaw, Eliza, Zachtronics, Kirk Hamilton, Aaron Evers, Mark Garcia.  Errors! It was not Papers, Please (which is also excellent and by Lucas Pope), but Cart Life that was by Richard Hofmeier Links: When You Say One Thing and Mean Your Motherboard Next time: ...?! Twitch: brettdouville or timlongojr, instagram:timlongojr, Twitter: @timlongojr and @devgameclub DevGameClub@gmail.com

Welcome to Dev Game Club, where this week we continue our mini theme of the flexibility of text. We examine the Infocom era by playing a late title, Plundered Hearts. We discuss some of the rougher aspects of the game and the mechanics of text adventures, including the facilities of the language and some of its modern descendants. Dev Game Club looks at classic video games and plays through them over several episodes, providing commentary. Sections played: Tim (all), Brett (the first section) Issues covered: setting the game in its time, graphic adventures in the time, the death of Infocom, the variety of Infocom's game, Tim pulling his hair out, the cinematic nature of the game, some digressions on Deadline, extending the play through difficulty, saving the game, puzzles and wordplay, exploring the parser, accommodating the player, playing with tropes, Tim misses the boat, a bit of description of the parser and virtual machine, rooms and inventory, fore and aft vs north and south, abstraction and flexibility, restrictions, great graphics via visualization, the perfect run and the perfect score, the modern text adventure market, trigger warning for adult themes, a female protagonist, failure states, "a fate worse than death," a commentary about the dangers for women in the world, a game that she wanted to play, the context of the medium and the inherent danger of the world, having an impactful victory, Vermin's SL1 of Dark Souls, Pippin Barr and experimental games, Break Out and performance art, from Rogue to Diablo. Games, people, and influences mentioned or discussed: Rogue, Calamity Nolan, Reed Knight, TIE Fighter, Aaron Reed, Maniac Mansion, Sierra Online, Space Quest 2, Police Quest, Leisure Suit Larry, Nintendo/NES, Punch-Out, Final Fantasy, Sid Meier's Pirates!, Metroid, Legend of Zelda, Day of the Tentacle, Cornerstone, Zork, Deadline, Deathloop, The Lurking Horror, Ballyhoo, Moonmist, Leather Goddesses of Phobos, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Activision, Sea of Thieves, Amy Briggs, Agatha Christie, Murder She Wrote, Sleep No More, Colossal Cave Adventure, Apple ][, Volkswagon, Tim Schafer, Dave Grossman, Dark Souls, Tomb Raider, Choose Your Own Adventure, Fighting Fantasy, Sir Ian Livingstone, Ink/Inkle, Around the World in 80 Days, Sorcery (series), Heaven's Vault, I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream, Suspended, Brian Moriarty, A Mind Forever Voyaging, Dark Souls, Emily Short, Elsinore, Pirates of the Caribbean, verminthewepper, Pippin Barr, David Wolinsky, Marina Abramovich, The Artist Is Present, Kill.Screen, GameThing, Breakout, don't die, Father Beast, Diablo, Ragnarok Valhalla, Glenn Wichman, The Eggplant Show, Dave Brevik, Moria, Nethack, Oliver Uv, Brogue, Caves of Qud, Cogmind, Rogue Legacy 2, Mark Garcia, Kirk Hamilton, Aaron Evers. Next time: A bit of a bonus and takeaways! Errata: It's a babelfish, I can't believe I couldn't remember that Brett confused Astrologaster with Heaven's Vault (he was referring to the latter) Links: Interactive Fiction Database GameThing podcast! Pippin Barr's site Don't Die by David Wolinsky Twitch: brettdouville or timlongojr, instagram:timlongojr, Twitter: @timlongojr and @devgameclub DevGameClub@gmail.com

Remember that time we stormed Area 51 and Conspiracy Bot somehow got us involved in a Reptilian scheme to take over the world? Or that time we went to the Hollow Earth and stole a bunch of crap while also ending up in a ZORK world? Well, all good stories come to an end and that end is this week. Just who is pulling the strings? Will we sell that crap we stole? Why is British announcer guy so British??? All that and the return of Goforth (and Pecker) this week in Adventure 3! Written by Michael Paul Gonzalez (MichaelPaulGonzalez.com / @monkeywright)In association with Radio Lost Angeles and ForthHand ProductionsProduced by Michael Paul GonzalezStarring:Brent Hand – HimselfJohn Goforth – HimselfLisa Hand - Herself Joe Peck - HimselfConspiracy Bot – Unfortunately, HimselfKyle – Annoyingly HimselfAleksandra Bieńkowska – DeckerTim Longhurst – British Announcer GuyDavid Flora - Various legally-distinct and permissible under parody laws space-themed pop culture characters who shall not be namedCebastian Tekin - Imperial Space SoldierKevin Crispin - HimselfDr. Sarah Penn - Child VoicesMichael Paul Gonzalez - Himself Music and sound effects sourced from creative commons and royalty free music archives including: Miguel Johnson, Music4Video, A Shamaluev Music, Filmstro, and Tabletop Audio.Email us your favorite WEIRD news stories:weird@hysteria51.comSupport the ShowGet exclusive content & perks as well as an ad and sponsor free experience at https://www.patreon.com/Hysteria51 from just $1See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Almost time! But we can't leave you hanging without revisiting Adventure 2! Dive back in to the sequel, have a laugh, and prepare for Adventure 3! Original DescriptionRemember that time we stormed Area 51 and Conspiracy Bot somehow got us involved in a Reptilian scheme to take over the world? (episode 155 for those of you playing at home) This is like that…only different…with more Hollow Earth…and Kyle…and Zork? ¯_(ツ)_/¯ You better just listen for yourself. Written by Michael Paul Gonzalez (MichaelPaulGonzalez.com / @monkeywright)In association with Radio Lost Angeles and ForthHand ProductionsProduced by Michael Paul Gonzalez and Brent HandStarring:Brent Hand – HimselfJohn Goforth – HimselfLisa Hand - HerselfConspiracy Bot – Unfortunately, HimselfKyle – Annoyingly HimselfAleksandra Bieńkowska – DeckerTim Longhurst – British Announcer GuyMichael Paul Gonzalez - HimselfEvil John Goforth - Not HimselfMusic:Music provided by No Copyright Music: https://www.youtube.com/c/royaltyfreezoneMusic used: Dragon War by Makai Symphony https://soundcloud.com/makai-symphony/dragon-warorchestral-battle-musicLicensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/Sound Effects:Sound Effects obtained via Licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/Hysteria51See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.