Podcasts about Zork

The above title does not do Dan Swift justice. Dan also has his own podcast, successful Youtube channel and he has released seven music albums. Talk about being unstoppable! I met Dan when I appeared as a guest on his podcast, Time We Discuss and I knew he would contribute to a fascinating story here.   Dan grew up with an interest in music. For a time he thought he wanted to write music for video games. Along the way he left that idea behind and after graduating from college he began working at designing websites. He has made that into his fulltime career.   As he grew as a website designer and later as a supervisor for a school system coordinating and creating the school sites Dan took an interest in accessibility of the web. We talk quite a bit about that during our time together. His observations are fascinating and right on where web access for persons with disabilities is concerned.   We also talk about Dan's podcast including some stories of guests and what inspires Dan from his interviews. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I.       About the Guest:   Originally wanting to write music for video games or become an audio engineer, Dan Swift graduated from a small Liberal Arts college with a degree in Music Composition (Bachelor of Arts) and Music Recording Technology (Bachelor of Music).  Dan went on to release seven EP albums between 2003 and 2024. Most recently, "Parallels" dropped on Leap Day, 2024.  Dan has always had a passion for shaking up genres between Eps writing classical, electronic, and modern rock music.   While creating music has always been a passion, Dan took a more traditional professional path as a web developer. While on this path, Dan had a lot of experience with accessibility standards as it relates to the web and he values accessibility and equity for everyone both inside and outside the digital workspace. Having received his MBA during COVID, Dan went on to a leadership position where he continues to make a difference leading a team of tech-savvy web professionals.   In early 2024, I created a podcast and YouTube channel called "Time We Discuss" which focuses on career exploration and discovery. The channel and podcast are meant for anyone that is feeling lost professionally and unsure of what is out there for them. Dan feels that it is important for people to discover their professional passion, whatever it is that lights them up on the inside, and chase it. So many people are unfulfilled in their careers, yet it doesn't have to be this way.   When not working, Dan enjoys spending time with his wife and three kids. They are a very active family often going to various extracurricular events over the years including flag football, soccer, gymnastics, and school concerts.  Dan's wife is very active with several nonprofit organizations including those for the betterment of children and homelessness.  Dan enjoys playing the piano, listening to podcasts, and listening to music.  Dan is very naturally curious and is a slave to a train of never-ending thoughts.   Ways to connect with Dan:   Time We Discuss on YouTube Time We Discuss on Spotify Time We Discuss on Twitter/X Time We Discuss on Instagram Time We Discuss on BlueSky   Time We Discuss Website Dan Swift Music Website   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everybody. Welcome once again. Wherever you may be, to unstoppable mindset, I am your host, Mike hingson, sometimes I say Michael hingson, and people have said, Well, is it Mike or Michael? And the answer is, it doesn't really matter. It took a master's degree in physics and 10 years in sales for me to realize that if I said Mike Hingson on the phone, people kept calling me Mr. Kingston, and I couldn't figure out why, so I started saying Michael Hingson, and they got the hinckson part right, but it doesn't matter to me. So anyway, Mike hingson, or Michael hingson, glad you're with us, wherever you are, and our guest today is Dan Swift, who has his own pine podcast, and it was actually through that podcast that we met, and I told him, but I wouldn't do it with him and be on his podcast unless he would be on unstoppable mindset. And here he is. Dan is a person who writes music, he's an engineer. He does a lot of work with web design and so on, and we're going to get into all that. So Dan, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Dan Swift ** 02:25 Michael, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. I am. I'm super excited.   Michael Hingson ** 02:30 Well, looking forward to getting to spend more time with you. We did yours time to discuss, and now we get this one. So it's always kind of fun. So, and Dan is in Pennsylvania, so we're talking across the continent, which is fine. It's amazing what we can do with electronics these days, telling us not like the good old days of the covered wagon. What can I say? So, So Dan, why don't you tell us a little bit about kind of the early Dan, growing up and all that.   Dan Swift ** 02:57 Oh, geez. How far   Michael Hingson ** 02:58 back to go? Oh, as far as you want to go,   Dan Swift ** 03:02 Well, okay, so I am, I am the youngest of five. Grew up just outside of Philadelphia as being the youngest. You know, there are certain perks that go along with that. I get to experience things that my parents would have previous said no to the older siblings. And you know how it is with with, you know, if you have more than one kid, technically, you get a little more relaxed as you have more but then I also had the other benefit of, you know, hearing the expression, there are young ears in the room, I will tell you later. So I kind of got some of that too. But I grew up outside of Philadelphia, had a passion for music. Pretty early on. I was never good at any sports. Tried a number of things. And when I landed on music, I thought, you know, this is this is something that I can do. I seem to have a natural talent for it. And I started, I tried playing the piano when I was maybe eight or nine years old. That didn't pan out. Moved on to the trumpet when I was nine or 10. Eventually ended up picking up guitar, bass, guitar, double bass revisited piano later in life, but that's the musical side of things. Also, when I was young, you know, I had a passion for role playing games, Dungeons and Dragons, was really big when I was a teenager, so I was super excited for that. Yeah, that's, that's kind of those, those memories kind of forced me, or kind of shaped me into the person that I am today. I'm very light hearted, very easy going, and I just try to enjoy life.   Michael Hingson ** 04:30 I played some computer games when computers came along and I started fiddling with them, the games I usually played were text based games. I've never really played Dungeons and Dragons and some of those. And I I'm sure that there are accessible versions of of some of that, but I remember playing games like adventure. You remember? Have you heard of adventure? I have, yeah. So that was, that was fun. Info con made. Well, they had Zork, which was really the same as adventure, but they. At a whole bunch of games. And those are, those are fun. And I think all of those games, I know a lot of adults would probably say kids spend too much time on some of them, but some of these games, like the the text based games, I thought really were very good at expanding one's mind, and they made you think, which is really what was important to me? Yeah, I   Dan Swift ** 05:21 completely agree with that too. Because you'd be put in these situations where, you know true, you're trying to solve some kind of puzzle, and you're trying to think, Okay, well, that didn't work, or that didn't work, and you try all these different things, then you decide to leave and come back to and you realize later, like you didn't have something that you needed to progress forward, or something like that. But, but it really gets the brain going, trying to create with these, uh, come up with these creative solutions to progress the game forward. Yeah, which   Michael Hingson ** 05:43 and the creative people who made them in the first place? What did they? Yeah, they, I don't know where they, where they spent their whole time that they had nothing to do but to create these games. But hey, it worked. It sure. Did you know you do it well. So you went off to college. Where'd you go? Sure,   Dan Swift ** 06:02 I went to a small liberal arts college, Lebanon Valley College in Pennsylvania. It's near, it's near Hershey. It was, it was weird in that my the entire school was about half the size of my entire high school. So that was very, very weird. And then you talk to these other people. And it's like, my high school was, you know, very large by comparison. But for me, it was like, well, high school, that's what I knew. But yeah, it was I went to, I went to 11 Valley College near Hershey. I studied, I was a double major. I studied music composition and music recording,   Michael Hingson ** 06:35 okay, and, oh, I've got to go back and ask before we continue that. So what were some of the real perks you got as a kid that your your older siblings didn't get?   Dan Swift ** 06:45 Oh, geez, okay. I mean,   Michael Hingson ** 06:49 couldn't resist, yeah, probably, probably   Dan Swift ** 06:51 some of the more cliche things. I probably got to spend the night at a friend's house earlier than my oldest brother. For instance, I know my parents were a little more concerned about finances. So I know my oldest brother didn't get a chance to go away to college. He did community college instead. And then, kind of, my sister was a very similar thing. And then once we got, like, about halfway down, you know, me and my two other brothers, we all had the opportunity to go away to college. So I think that was, that was definitely one of the perks. If I was the oldest, I was the oldest, I probably wouldn't have had that opportunity with my family. Got   Michael Hingson ** 07:24 it well, so you went off and you got a matt a bachelor's in music, composition and music recording. So that brought you to what you were interested in, part, which was the engineering aspect of it. But that certainly gave you a pretty well rounded education. Why those two why composition and recording? Sure.   Dan Swift ** 07:43 So if we talk about the music first at that time, so this is like the the late 90s, early 2000s any kind of digital music that was out there really was, was MIDI based, and anyone that was around that time and paying attention, it was like these very like, like that music kind of sound to it. So there wasn't a whole lot going on with MIDI. I'm sorry, with music as far as how great it sounded, or I shouldn't say, how great it sounded, the the instruments that are triggered by MIDI, they didn't sound all that great. But around that time, there was this game that came out, Final Fantasy seven, and I remember hearing the music for that, and it was all, it was all electronic, and it was just blown away by how fantastic it sounded. And And around that time, I thought, you know, it'd be really cool to get into writing music for video games. And that was something I really kind of toyed with. So that was kind of in the back of my head. But also, at the time, I was in a band, like a rock band, and I thought, you know, I'm going to school. They have this opportunity to work as a music engineer, which is something I really wanted to do at the time. And I thought, free studio time. My band will be here. This will be awesome. And it wasn't until I got there that I discovered that they also had the music composition program. It was a I was only there maybe a week or two, and once I discovered that, I was like, Well, this is gonna be great, you know, I'll learn to write. Know, I'll learn to write music. I can write for video games. I'll get engineering to go with it. This is gonna be fantastic. Speaking   Michael Hingson ** 09:07 of electronic music, did you ever see a science fiction movie called The Forbidden Planet? I did not. Oh, it's music. It's, it's not really music in the sense of what what we call, but it's all electronic. You gotta, you gotta find it. I'm sure you can find it somewhere. It's called the Forbidden Planet. Walter pigeon is in it. But the music and the sounds fit the movie, although it's all electronic, and electronic sounding pretty interesting.   Dan Swift ** 09:37 Now, is that from, I know, like in the 50s, 60s, there was a lot of experiments. Okay, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 09:45 yeah, and, but again, it fit the movie, which was the important part. So it certainly wasn't music like John Williams today and and in the 80s and all that. But again, for the movie, it fit. Very well, which is kind of cool. Yeah,   Dan Swift ** 10:02 I'll definitely have to check that out. I remember when I was in school, we talked about like that, that avant garde kind of style of the the 50s, 60s. And there was a lot of weird stuff going on with electronics, electronic music. Um, so I'm very curious to see, uh, to check this out, yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 10:14 You have to let me know what, what you find, what you think about it, when you get to chance to watch it, absolutely or actually, I I may have a copy. If I do, I'll put it in a dropbox folder and send you a link. Fantastic. So you graduated. Now, when did you graduate?   Dan Swift ** 10:32 Sure, so I graduated in 2003 okay,   Michael Hingson ** 10:35 so you graduated, and then what did you do? So,   Dan Swift ** 10:41 backing up about maybe 612, months prior to that, I decided I did not want to be a I didn't want to write music for video games. I also did not want to work in a recording studio. And the reason for this was for music. It was, I didn't it was, it was something I really, really enjoyed, and I didn't want to be put in a position where I had to produce music on demand. I didn't want to I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to lose my hobby, lose my passion in that way. So I decided that was out. And then also, when it came to working in a studio, if I wanted to be the engineer that I really wanted to be, I would have to be in a place where the music scene was really happening. So I'd have to be in like Philadelphia or Los Angeles or Nashville or deep in Philly or something like that. And I do not like the cities. I don't feel comfortable in the city. So I was like, that's not really for me either. I could work in like a suburb studio. But I was like, not, not for me. I don't, not for me. So when I graduated college, I ended up doing freelance web work. I had met through, through a mutual friend I was I was introduced to by a mutual friend, to a person that was looking for a new web designer, developer. They lost their person, and they were looking for someone to take over with that. And at the time, I did a little bit of experience doing that, from when I was in high school, kind of picked it up on the side, just kind of like as a hobby. But I was like, Ah, I'll give this a shot. So I started actually doing that freelance for a number of years after graduation. I also worked other jobs that was, like, kind of like nowhere, like dead end kind of jobs. I did customer service work for a little bit. I was a teacher with the American Cross for a little bit, a little bit of this and that, just trying to find my way. But at the same time, I was doing freelance stuff, and nothing related to music and nothing related to technology,   Michael Hingson ** 12:29 well, so you learned HTML coding and all that other stuff that goes along with all that. I gather, I   Dan Swift ** 12:35 sure did, I sure didn't. At the time, CSS was just kind of popular, yeah, so that. And then I learned, I learned JavaScript a little bit. And, you know, I had a very healthy attitude when it when it came to accepting new clients and projects, I always tried to learn something new. Anytime someone gave me a new a new request came in, it was like, Okay, well, I already know how to do this by doing it this way. But how can I make this better? And that was really the way that I really propelled myself forward in the in the digital, I should say, when it comes to development or design.   Michael Hingson ** 13:05 Okay, so you ended up really seriously going into website development and so on.   Dan Swift ** 13:15 I did. So I continued doing freelance. And then about five years after I graduated, I started working as an audio visual technician, and also was doing computer tech stuff as part of the role as well. And while I was there, I ended up developing some web applications for myself to use that I could use to interact with our like projectors and stuff like that. Because they were on, they were all in the network, so I could interact with them using my wait for it, iPod Touch, there you go. So that was, you know, I kind of like started to blend those two together. I was really interested in the web at the time, you know, because I was still doing the freelance, I really wanted to move forward and kind of find a full time position doing that. So I ended up pursuing that more and just trying to refine those skills. And it wasn't until about about five years later, I ended up working as a full time web developer, and then kind of moved forward from   Michael Hingson ** 14:09 there, iPod Touch, what memories? And there are probably bunches of people who don't even know what that is today. That   Dan Swift ** 14:16 is so true, and at the time that was cutting edge technology,   Michael Hingson ** 14:21 yeah, it was not accessible. So I didn't get to own one, because was later than that that Steve Jobs was finally kind of pushed with the threat of a lawsuit into making things accessible. And then they did make the iPhone, the iPod, the Mac and so on, and iTunes U and other things like that, accessible. And of course, what Steve Jobs did, what Apple did, which is what Microsoft eventually sort of has done as well, but he built accessibility into the operating system. So anybody who has an Apple device today. Troy actually has a device that can be made accessible by simply turning on the accessibility mode. Of course, if you're going to turn it on, you better learn how to use it, because the gestures are different. But it took a while, but, but that did happen. But by that time, I, you know, I had other things going on, and so I never did get an iPod and and wasn't able to make it work, but that's okay. But it's like the CD has gone away and the iPod has gone away, and so many things and DVDs have gone away.   Dan Swift ** 15:31 Yes, so true. So true. You know, just as soon as we start to get used to them   Michael Hingson ** 15:35 gone. I think there is, well, maybe it's close. There was a blockbuster open up in Oregon. But again, Blockbuster Video, another one, and I think somebody's trying to bring them back, but I do see that vinyl records are still being sold in various places by various people. Michael Buble just put out a new album, The Best of Buble, and it's available, among other things, in vinyl. So the old turntables, the old record players, and you can actually buy his album as a record and play it, which is kind of cool. Yeah, they've been   Dan Swift ** 16:07 very big with marketing, too. It's been kind of a marketing, I don't want to say gimmick, but in that realm, you kind of like, hey, you know, this is also available in vinyl, and you try to get the people that are like the audio files to really check it out. I never really took the vinyl personally, but I know plenty of people that have sworn by it. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 16:25 I've heard a number of people say that the audio actually is better on vinyl than typical MP three or other similar file formats. Yep,   Dan Swift ** 16:35 yep. I had a friend growing up, and actually, I shouldn't say growing up, so I was already, like, in college or post college, but a buddy of mine, Craig, he was all about vinyl, and he had, he had the nice, the amplifier, and the nice, I think even, like, a certain kind of needle that you would get for the record player. And you know, you'd have to sit in the sweet spot to really enjoy it, and and I respect that, but um, for me, it was like, I didn't, I didn't hear that much of a difference between a CD and vinyl. Um, not very. Didn't have the opportunity to AB test them. But now I will say comparing a CD to like an mp three file, for instance, even a high quality mp three file, I can tell the difference on that Sure. I would never, you know, I'd use the MP threes for convenience. But if I were to have it my way, man, I'd have the uncompressed audio, no doubt about it, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 17:27 wave forms, yep, yep, yeah. Obviously that's that's going to give you the real quality. Of course, it takes a lot more memory, but nevertheless, if you've got the space it, it really makes a lot of sense to do because mp three isn't going to be nearly as high a level quality.   Dan Swift ** 17:43 Absolutely, absolutely true. And that the way I rationalize it to myself. It's like, well, if I'm going to be though in the car or probably walking around and listening to music, I'm going to be getting all kinds of sounds from outside. Anyway, it kind of offsets the poor quality of the MP justify it.   Michael Hingson ** 17:56 That's true. Well, you know when and mp three is convenient if you want to put a bunch of stuff in a well on a memory card and be able to play it all, because if you have uncompressed audio, it does take a lot more space, and you can't put as much on a card, or you got to get a much bigger card. And now we're getting pretty good sized memory cards. But still, the reality is that that for most purposes, not all mp three will suffice.   Dan Swift ** 18:26 That is true. That is true. And I think too, you have a that the next battle is going to be mp three or a streaming,   Michael Hingson ** 18:33 yeah, yeah, that's going to be fun, isn't it? Yeah? Boy. What a world well. So one of the things I noticed in reading your bio and so on is that you got involved to a great degree in dealing with accessibility on the web. Tell me about that.   Dan Swift ** 18:55 Absolutely. Michael, so I've very strong opinions of accessibility. And this really comes back to, you know, I was, I was at my job, and I was only there as a full time developer. I wasn't there all that long, maybe a year, maybe two, and my supervisor came over to me and she said, you know, we want to start to make things more accessible. And this is like, this is like, 1012, years ago at this point, and I was like, okay, you know, and I did my little bit of research, and there wasn't a whole lot going on at the time. I don't think WCAG was a thing back then. It may have been. I can't remember if 508 was a thing at the in the Bible. It was okay, yeah. So I was doing my research, and, you know, you learn about the alt tags, and it's like, okay, well, we're doing that, okay. Then you learn about forms, and it's like, okay, well, they need to have labels, okay, but, but the turning point was this, Michael, we had a person on staff that was blind, and I was put in touch with this person, and I asked them to review like, different, different web applications. Applications we made, or forms or web pages. And the one day, I can't remember if he volunteered or if I asked, but essentially the request was, can this person come into our physical space and review stuff for us in person? And that experience was life changing for me, just watching him navigate our different web pages or web applications or forms, and seeing how he could go through it, see what was a problem, what was not a problem, was just an incredible experience. And I said this before, when given the opportunity to talk about this, I say to other developers and designers, if you ever have even the slightest opportunity to interact with someone, if they if, if you meet someone and they are using, let me, let me rephrase that, if you have the opportunity to watch someone that is blind using a navigate through the web, take, take that opportunity. Is just an amazing, amazing experience, and you draw so much from it. As a developer or designer, so very strong opinions about it, I'm all about inclusivity and making things equal for everyone on the web, and that was just my introductory experience about a dozen years ago.   Michael Hingson ** 21:07 And so what have you done with it all since? Sure, so   Dan Swift ** 21:11 with our website, we went from having about a million success criterion failures, and we've gotten it all the way down to, I think my last check, I think was maybe about 10,000 so it was huge, huge change. It's hard to get everything as because as content changes and newspaper, as new pages come online, it's hard to keep everything 100% accessible, but we know what to look for. You know, we're looking for the right contrast. We're looking for, you know, the all tags. We're looking for hierarchy with the headers. We're making sure our forms are accessible. We're making sure there aren't any keyboard traps, you know, things that most people, most web visitors, don't even think about, you know, or developers even thinking about, until you know, you need to think about them   Michael Hingson ** 22:00 well and other things as well, such as with other kinds of disabilities. If you're a person with epilepsy, for example, you don't want to go to a website and find blinking elements, or at least, you need to have a way to turn them off, yeah.   Dan Swift ** 22:13 Or or audio that starts automatically, or videos that start automatically, yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 22:19 So many different things, or video that starts automatically, and there's music, but there's no audio, so you so a blind person doesn't even know what the video is, yes, which, which happens all too often. But the the reality is that with the Americans with Disabilities Act, it's it's been interesting, because some lawyers have tried to fight the courts and say, well, but the ADA came out long before the internet, so we didn't know anything about the internet, so it doesn't apply. And finally, the Department of Justice is taking some stands to say, yes, it does, because the internet is a place of business, but it's going to have to be codified, I think, to really bring it home. But some courts have sided with that argument and said, Well, yeah, the ADA is too old, so it doesn't, doesn't matter. And so we still see so many challenges with the whole idea of access. And people listening to this podcast know that, among other things I work with a company called accessibe. Are you familiar with them? I am, Yep, yeah, and, and so that's been an interesting challenge. But what makes access to be interesting is that, because it has an artificial intelligent widget that can monitor a website, and at the at the low end of of costs. It's like $490 a year. And it may not pick up everything that a body needs, but it will, will do a lot. And going back to what you said earlier, as websites change, as they evolve, because people are doing things on their website, which they should be doing, if you've got a static website, you never do anything with it. That's not going to do you very much good. But if it's changing constantly, the widget, at least, can look at it and make a lot of the changes to keep the website accessible. The other part of it is that it can tell you what it can't do, which is cool,   Dan Swift ** 24:16 yeah, that's a really good point. You know, there's a lot of tools that are out there. They do monitor the stuff for you, you know, like we on our on our site, we have something that runs every night and it gives us a report every day. But then there are things that it doesn't always check, or it might, it might get a false positive, because it sees that like, you know, this element has a particular color background and the text is a particular color as well. But there's, you know, maybe a gradient image that lies between them, or an image that lies between them. So it's actually okay, even though the tool says it's not, or something like that. So, yeah, those automated tools, but you gotta also look at it. You know, a human has to look at those as well.   Michael Hingson ** 24:52 Yeah, it's a challenge. But the thing that I think is important with, well, say, use accessibe. An example is that I think every web developer should use accessibe. And the reason I think that is not that accessibe will necessarily do a perfect job with with the access widget, but what it will do is give you something that is constantly monitored, and even if it only makes about 50% of the website more usable because there are complex graphics and other things that it can't do, the reality is, why work harder than you have to, and if accessibility can do a lot of the work for you without you having to do it, it doesn't mean that you need to charge less or you need to do things any different, other than the fact that you save a lot of time on doing part of it because the widget does it for you. Absolutely, absolutely.   Dan Swift ** 25:47 That's that's a really, really good point too, having that tool, that tool in your tool belt, you know, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 25:55 yeah. And it makes a lot of sense to do. And there are, there are people who complain about products like accessibe, saying artificial intelligence can't do it. It's too new. You gotta start somewhere. And the reality is that accessibe, in of itself, does a lot, and it really makes websites a lot better than they otherwise were. And some people say, Well, we've gone to websites and accessibe doesn't really seem to make a difference on the site. Maybe not. But even if your website is pretty good up front and you use accessibe, it's that time that you change something that you don't notice and suddenly accessibe fixes it. That makes it better. It's an interesting discussion all the way around, but to to deny the reality of what an AI oriented system can do is, is really just putting your head in the sand and not really being realistic about life as we go forward. I think that is   Dan Swift ** 26:52 so true. That is so true, and there's so many implications with AI and where it's going to go and what it will be able to do. You know, it's just in its infancy, and the amount of things that that the possibilities of what the future is going to be like, but they're just going to be very, very interesting.   Michael Hingson ** 27:05 I interviewed someone, well, I can't say interview, because it's conversation. Well, I had a conversation with someone earlier on, unstoppable mindset, and he said something very interesting. He's a coach, and specifically, he does a lot of work with AI, and he had one customer that he really encouraged to start using chat GPT. And what this customer did, he called his senior staff into a meeting one day, and he said, Okay, I want you to take the rest of the day and just work with chat, G, P, T, and create ideas that will enhance our business, and then let's get together tomorrow to discuss them. And he did that because he wanted people to realize the value already that exists using some of this technology. Well, these people came back with incredible ideas because they took the time to focus on them, and again, they interacted with chat, GPT. So it was a symbiotic, is probably the wrong word, but synergistic, kind of relationship, where they and the AI system worked together and created, apparently, what became really clever ideas that enhanced this customer's business. And the guy, when he first started working with this coach, was totally down on AI, but after that day of interaction with his staff, he recognized the value of it. And I think the really important key of AI is AI will not replace anyone. And that's what this gentleman said to me. He said, AI won't do it. People may replace other people, which really means they're not using AI properly, because if they were, when they find that they can use artificial intelligence to do the job that someone else is doing, you don't get rid of that person. You find something else for them to do. And the conversation that we had was about truck drivers who are involved in transporting freight from one place to another. If you get to the point where you have an autonomous vehicle, who can really do that, you still keep a driver behind the wheel, but that driver is now doing other things for the company, while the AI system does the driving, once it gets dependable enough to do that. So he said, there's no reason for AI to eliminate, and it won't. It's people that do it eliminate any job at all, which I think is a very clever and appropriate response. And I completely agree   Dan Swift ** 29:29 with that, you know, you think of other other technologies that are out there and how it disrupted, disrupted different industries. And the one example I like to use is the traffic light, you know. And I wonder, and I have no way of knowing this. I haven't researched this at all, but I wonder if there was any kind of pushback when they started putting in traffic lights. Because at that point in time, maybe you didn't have people directing traffic or something like that. Or maybe that was the event of the stop sign, it took it took away the jobs of people that were directing traffic or something like that. Maybe there was some kind of uproar over that. Maybe not, I don't know, but I like to think that things like that, you know. It disrupts the industry. But then people move on, and there are other other opportunities for them, and it progresses. It makes society progress forward.   Michael Hingson ** 30:06 And one would note that we still do use school crossing guards at a lot of schools.   Dan Swift ** 30:11 That is so true, that is true. Yeah, yeah. And especially, too, like talking about idea generation. I was talking to ginger. I forgot her last name, but she's the the president of pinstripe marketing, and she was saying that her team sometimes does the same thing that they they use chat GBT for idea generation. And I think, let's say Ashley, I think Ashley Mason, I think was her name, from Dasha social. The same thing they use, they use a chat GPT for idea generation, not not necessarily for creating the content, but for idea generation and the ideas it comes up with. It could be it can save you a lot of time. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 30:48 it can. And you know, I've heard over the last year plus how a lot of school teachers are very concerned that kids will just go off and get chat GPT to write their papers. And every time I started hearing that, I made the comment, why not let it do that? You're not thinking about it in the right way. If a kid goes off and just uses chat GPT to write their paper, they do that and they turn it into you. The question is, then, what are you as the teacher, going to do? And I submit that what the teachers ought to do is, when they assign a paper and the class all turns in their papers, then what you do is you take one period, and you give each student a minute to come up and defend without having the paper in front of them their paper. You'll find out very quickly who knows what. And it's, I think it's a potentially great teaching tool that   Dan Swift ** 31:48 is fascinating, that perspective is awesome. I love that.   Speaker 1 ** 31:52 Well, it makes sense. It   Dan Swift ** 31:55 certainly does. It certainly does. And that made me think of this too. You know, there's a lot of pushback from from artists about how that, you know, their their art was being used, or art is being used by AI to generate, you know, new art, essentially. And and musicians are saying the same thing that they're taking our stuff, it's getting fed into chat, GPT or whatever, and they're using it to train these different models. And I read this, this article. I don't even know where it was, but it's probably a couple months ago at this point. And the person made this comparison, and the person said, you know, it's really no different than a person learning how to paint in school by studying other people's art. You know, it's the same idea. It's just at a much, much much accelerated pace. And I thought, you know what that's that's kind of interesting. It's an interesting   Michael Hingson ** 32:45 perspective. It is. I do agree that we need to be concerned, that the human element is important. And there are a lot of things that people are are doing already to misuse some of this, this AI stuff, these AI tools, but we already have the dark web. We've had that for a while, too. I've never been to the dark web. I don't know how to get to it. That's fine. I don't need to go to the dark web. Besides that, I'll bet it's not accessible anyway. But the we've had the dark web, and people have accepted the fact that it's there, and there are people who monitor it and and all that. But the reality is, people are going to misuse things. They're going to be people who will misuse and, yeah, we have to be clever enough to try to ferret that out. But the fact of the matter is, AI offers so much already. One of the things that I heard, oh, gosh, I don't whether it was this year or late last year, was that, using artificial intelligence, Pfizer and other organizations actually created in only a couple of days? Or moderna, I guess, is the other one, the COVID vaccines that we have. If people had to do it alone, it would have taken them years that that we didn't have. And the reality is that using artificial intelligence, it was only a few days, and they had the beginnings of those solutions because they they created a really neat application and put the system to work. Why wouldn't we want to do that?   Dan Swift ** 34:23 I completely agree. I completely agree. And that's, again, that's how you move society forward. You know, it's similar to the idea of, you know, testing medicine on or testing medications on animals. For instance, you know, I love animals. You know, I love dogs, bunnies. I mean, the whole, the whole gamut, you know, love animals, but I understand the importance of, you know, well, do we test on them, or do we press on people, you know, you gotta, or do you not test? Or do just not you like you gotta. You gotta weigh out the pros and cons. And they're, they're definitely, definitely those with AI as well.   Michael Hingson ** 34:56 Well, I agree, and I. With animals and people. Now, I mean, as far as I'm concerned, we ought to be doing tests on politicians. You know, they're not people. Anyway. So I think when you decide to become a politician, you take a special pill that nobody seems to be able to prove, but they take dumb pills, so they're all there. But anyway, I'm with Mark Twain. Congress is at Grand Ole benevolent asylum for the helpless. So I'm an equal opportunity abuser, which is why we don't do politics on unstoppable mindset. We can have a lot of fun with it, I'm sure, but we sure could. It would be great talk about artificial intelligence. You got politicians. But the reality is that it's, it's really something that that brings so much opportunity, and I'm and it's going to continue to do that, and every day, as we see advances in what AI is doing, we will continue to see advances and what is open for us to be able to utilize it to accomplish, which is cool. I   Dan Swift ** 36:04 completely agree. Completely agree. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 36:06 so it'll be fun to see you know kind of how it goes. So are you, do you work for a company now that makes websites? Or what is your company that you work for? Do, sure.   Dan Swift ** 36:16 So I'm still in the education space, so I'm still, I'm like, in a state school managing a team of web professionals.   Michael Hingson ** 36:23 Okay, well, that's cool. So you keep the school sites and all the things that go along with it up at all that   Dan Swift ** 36:31 is correct. And we have lots of fun challenges when we start to integrate with third parties and got to make sure they're accessible too. And sometimes there's dialog that goes back and forth that people aren't happy with but, but it's my job to make sure, that's one of the things that we make sure happens, especially since I'm sure you've been following this. There's the Department of Justice ruling back in April, but I think it's anyone that's receiving state funding, they have to be. They have to follow the WCAG. Two point, I think, 2.1 double A compliance by April of 26 if you are a certain size, and my my institution, falls into that category. So we need to make sure that we were on the right path   Michael Hingson ** 37:06 well. And the reality is that has been around since 2010 but it took the the DOJ 12 years to finally come up with rules and regulations to implement section 508. Yep, but it's it's high time they did and they do need to do it for the rest of the internet, and that's coming, but people are just being slow. And for me personally, I think it's just amazing that it's taking so long. It's not like you have to redesign a box, that you have to go off and retool hardware. This is all code. Why should it be that difficult to do? But people throw roadblocks in your way, and so it becomes tough. Yeah, it's   Dan Swift ** 37:47 interesting, too. I remember reading this article, oh, gosh, this is probably, this is probably about a dozen years ago, and it said that, you know, the original web was 100% accessible, that it was just, you know, just text on a page pretty much. And you could do very, very simple layouts, you know, and then it got more convoluted. People would start doing tables for layouts, and tables within tables within tables, and so on and so forth. Like the original web it was, it was completely accessible. And now with, with all the the interactions we do with with client side scripting and everything like that, is just, it's a mess. If   Michael Hingson ** 38:19 you really want to hear an interesting thing, I like to look and I've done it for a long time, long before accessibe. I like to explore different sites and see how accessible they are. And one day I visited nsa.gov, the National Security Agency, which, of course, doesn't really exist. So I could tell you stories, but I went to nsa.gov, and I found that that was the most accessible website I had ever encountered. If you arrow down to a picture, for example, when you arrowed into it, suddenly you got on your screen reader a complete verbal description of what the picture was, and everything about that site was totally usable and totally accessible. I'd never seen a website that was so good contrast that with and it's changed. I want to be upfront about it, Martha Stewart Living. The first time I went to that website because I was selling products that Martha Stewart was interested. So I went to look at the website. It was totally inaccessible. The screen reader wouldn't talk at all. Now, I've been to Martha Stewart since, and it's and it's much more accessible, but, but I was just amazed@nsa.gov was so accessible. It was amazing, which I thought was really pretty cool. Of all places. You   Dan Swift ** 39:41 know, it's interesting. Before I started my my YouTube channel and podcast, I actually thought about creating a channel and or podcast about websites that are inaccessible, and I thought about calling companies out. And the more I thought about it, I was like, I don't know if I want to make that many people angry. I don't know if that's a   Michael Hingson ** 39:58 good idea. I'm. Would suggest going the other way, and maybe, you know, maybe we can work together on it. But I would rather feature websites that are accessible and tell the story of how they got there, how their people got there. I would think that would be, I hear what you're saying about making people angry. So I would think, rather than doing that, feature the places that are and why they are and and their stories, and that might help motivate more people to make their websites accessible. What do you think about that as an idea?   Dan Swift ** 40:28 I actually thought about that as well, and I was going backwards between that and and the other the negative side, because I thought, you know, bring that to light. Might actually force them to like by shedding light on it, might force them to make their site more accessible, whether what or not or not, no, but I definitely thought about those two sites.   Michael Hingson ** 40:45 Yeah, it's, it's, it's a challenge all the way around. Well, what was the very first thing you did, the first experience that you ever had dealing with accessibility that got you started down that road.   Dan Swift ** 40:58 I think it was like I said, when I work with that, that blind person, when I, when I first had that opportunity to see how he used the different web applications, we had the different web pages, and he was using a Mac. So he was using VoiceOver, he was using the, I think it's called the rotor menu, or roto something like that. Yeah, yep. So then after that happened, it was like, whoa. I need to get them back so I can, like, learn to use this as well and do my own testing. So the IT department had an old I asked them. I said, Hey guys, do you have any any old MacBooks that I can use? I was like, it can be old. I just need to test it. I need to, I need it to test for accessibility on the web. They hooked me up with an old machine, you know, it wasn't super old, you know, but it was. It worked for me. It gave me an opportunity to do my testing, and then I kind of became like the person in the department to do that. Everyone else, they didn't have the interest as much as I did. They recognized the importance of it, but they, they didn't have the same fire on the inside that I had, so I kind of took that on, and then like that. Now that I'm in the position of leadership, now it's more of a delegating that and making sure it still gets done. But I'm kind of like the resident expert in our in our area, so I'm still kind of the person that dives in a little bit by trying to make my team aware and do the things they need to do to make sure we're continuing, continuing to create accessible projects. You   Michael Hingson ** 42:20 mentioned earlier about the whole idea of third party products and so on and and dealing with them. What do you do? And how do you deal with a company? Let's say you you need to use somebody else's product and some of the things that the school system has to do, and you find they're not accessible. What do you do?   Dan Swift ** 42:42 So a lot of times, what will happen, I shouldn't say a lot of times. It's not uncommon for a department to make a purchase from a third party, and this is strictly, I'm talking in the web space. They might, they might make a purchase with a third party, and then they want us to integrate it. And this is a great example I had. It was actually in the spring the this, they had essentially a widget that would be on the on their particular set of pages, and there was a pop up that would appear. And don't get me started on pop ups, because I got very strong opinion about those. Me too, like I said, growing up, you know, late 90s, early 2000s very, very strong opinions about pop ups. So, but, but I encountered this, and it wasn't accessible. And I'm glad that in the position I'm in, I could say this unit, you need to talk to the company, and they need to fix this, or I'm taking it down. And I'm glad that I had the backing from, you know, from leadership, essentially, that I could do, I can make that claim and then do that, and the company ended up fixing it. So that was good. Another example was another department was getting ready to buy something. Actually, no, they had already purchased it, but they hadn't implemented it yet. The first example that was already implemented, that was I discovered that after the fact. So in the second example, they were getting ready to implement it, and they showed us another school that used it also a pop up. And I looked at it on the on the other school site, and I said, this isn't accessible. We cannot use this. No. And they said, Well, yes, it is. And I said, No, it isn't. And I explained to them, and I showed them how it was not accessible, and they ended up taking it back to their developers. Apparently there was a bug that they then fixed and they made it accessible, and then we could implement it. So it's nice that like that. I have the support from from leadership, that if there is something that is inaccessible, I have the power to kind of wheel my fist and take that down, take it off of our site. Do   Michael Hingson ** 44:31 you ever find that when some of this comes up within the school system, that departments push back, or have they caught on and recognize the value of accessibility, so they'll be supportive.   Dan Swift ** 44:45 I think the frustration with them becomes more of we bought this tool. We wish we had known this was an issue before we bought I think it's more of a like like that. We just wasted our time and money, possibly. But generally speaking, they do see the. Value of it, and they've recognized the importance of it. It's just more of a when others, there's more hoops everyone has to go through.   Michael Hingson ** 45:05 Yeah, and as you mentioned with pop ups, especially, it's a real challenge, because you could be on a website, and a lot of times A pop up will come up and it messes up the website for people with screen readers and so on. And part of the problem is we don't even always find the place to close or take down the pop up, which is really very frustrating   Dan Swift ** 45:30 Exactly, exactly the tab index could be off, or you could still be on the page somewhere, and it doesn't allow you to get into it and remove it, or, yeah, and extra bonus points if they also have an audio playing or a video playing inside of that.   Michael Hingson ** 45:44 Yeah, it really does make life a big challenge, which is very, very frustrating all the way around. Yeah, pop ups are definitely a big pain in the butt, and I know with accessibility, we're we're all very concerned about that, but still, pop ups do occur. And the neat thing about a product like accessibe, and one of the reasons I really support it, is it's scalable, and that is that as the people who develop the product at accessibe improve it, those improvements filter down to everybody using the widget, which is really cool, and that's important, because with individual websites where somebody has to code it in and keep monitoring it, as you pointed out, the problem is, if that's all you have, then you've got to keep paying people to to monitor everything, to make sure everything stays accessible and coded properly, whereas there are ways to be able to take advantage of something like accessibe, where what you're able to do is let it, monitor it, and as accessibe learns, and I've got some great examples where people contacted me because they had things like a shopping cart on a website that didn't work, but when accessibe fixed it, because it turns out there was something that needed to be addressed that got fixed for anybody using the product. Which is really cool.   Dan Swift ** 47:07 Yeah, that's really neat. I definitely appreciate things like that where, you know, you essentially fix something for one person, it's fixed for everyone, or a new feature gets added for someone, or, you know, a group of people, for instance, and then everyone is able to benefit from that. That's really, really awesome. I love that type of stuff.   Michael Hingson ** 47:22 Yeah, I think it's really so cool. How has all this business with accessibility and so on affected you in terms of your YouTube channel and podcasting and so on? How do you bring that into the process? That's that's   Dan Swift ** 47:37 really, really good question. I am very proud to say that I take the time to create transcripts of all my recordings, and then I go through them, and I check them for for accuracy, to make sure that things aren't correct, things are incorrect. Make sure things are correct, that they are not incorrect. So I'll make sure that those are there when the when the videos go live, those are available. Spotify creates them automatically for you. I don't know that you that I have the ability to modify them. I'm assuming I probably do, but honestly, I haven't checked into that. But so that's that's all accessible. When it comes to my web page, I make sure that all my images have the appropriate, you know, alt tags associated with them, that the the descriptions are there so people understand what the pictures are. I don't have a whole lot of pictures. Usually it's just the thumbnail for the videos, so just indicating what it is. And then I just try to be, you know, kind of, kind of text heavy. I try to make sure that my, you know, my links are not, you know, click here, learn more stuff like that. I make sure or they're not actual web addresses. I try to make sure that they're actual actionable. So when someone's using a screen reader and they go over a link, it actually is meaningful. And color contrast is another big one. I try to make sure my color contrast is meeting the appropriate level for WCAG, 2.1 double A which I can't remember what actual contrast is, but there's a contrast checker for it, which is really, really helpful   Michael Hingson ** 49:00 well. And the other, the other part about it is when somebody goes to your website again, of course, accessibility is different for different people, so when you're dealing with things like contrast or whatever, do people who come to the website have the ability to monitor or not monitor, but modify some of those settings so that they get maybe a higher contrast or change colors. Or do they have that ability?   Dan Swift ** 49:28 I They do not have that ability. I remember looking into a tool a while ago, and it was and actually, you know, at the school, we thought about developing a tool. It would be like a widget on the side that you could adjust on different things like that. You could do, you could remove images, you could remove animation, you could change color, contrast, that sort of thing. And it just be like a very predefined kind of kind of settings. But in my research, I found that a lot of times that causes other problems for people, and it kind of falls into the the arena of. Um, separate but equal. And there's a lot of issues with that right now in the accessibility space when it comes to the web. So for instance, there was a company, I forget what the company name was, but they had one of their things that they did was they would create text only versions of your pages. So you'd contract with them. They would they would scrape the content of your site. They would create a text version, text only version of your pages. So if people were using a screen reader, they could just follow that link and then browse the text only version. And there was litigation, and the company got sued, and the the person suing was successful, because it was essentially creating a separate argument.   Michael Hingson ** 50:34 And that's not necessarily separate, but equal is the problem, because if you only got the text, pictures are put on websites, graphs are put on websites. All of those other kinds of materials are put on websites for reasons. And so what really needs to happen is that those other things need to be made accessible, which is doable, and the whole web con excessive content. Accessibility Guidelines do offer the the information as to how to do that and what to do, but it is important that that other information be made available, because otherwise it really is separate, but not totally equal at   Dan Swift ** 51:11 all. That's absolutely true. Absolutely true. Yeah. So it   Michael Hingson ** 51:15 is a, it is something to, you know, to look at well, you've been doing a podcast and so on for a while. What are some challenges that someone might face that you advise people about if they're going to create their own podcast or a really productive YouTube channel,   Dan Swift ** 51:31 be real with yourself with the amount of time you have to dedicate to it, because what I found is that it takes a lot more time than I originally anticipated I thought going in, I thought, you know, so I typically try to record one or two people a week. When I first started out, I was only recording one person. And usually I would do, you know, record one day, edit the next day, you know, do the web page stuff. I would go with it, you know, I can knock it out in like an hour or two. But I wasn't anticipating the social media stuff that goes with it, the search engine optimization that goes with it, the research that goes with it, trying to so if I'm if I'm producing a video that's going to go on YouTube, what's hot at the moment? What are people actually searching for? What's going to grab people's attention? What kind of thumbnail do I have to create to grab someone's attention, where it's not clickbait, but it also represents what I'm actually talking to the person about, and still interesting. So it's a lot of a lot of that research, a lot of that sort of thing. It just eats up a lot a lot of time when it comes to like the transcripts, for instance, that was those super easy on their number of services out there that created automatically for you, and they just have to read through it and make sure it's okay. I know YouTube will do it as well. I found that YouTube isn't as good as some of the other services that are out there, but in a bind, you can at least rely on YouTube and then go and edit from that point. But yet, time is definitely a big one. I would say, if anyone is starting to do it, make sure you have some serious time to dedicate several, several hours a week, I would say, upwards, you know, probably a good, you know, four to 10 hours a week is what I would estimate in the moment. If you're looking to produce a 30 minute segment once or twice a week, I would estimate about that time.   Michael Hingson ** 53:11 Yeah, one of the things I've been hearing about videos is that that the trend is is clearly not to have long videos, but only 32nd videos, and put them vertical as opposed to horizontal. And anything over 30 seconds is is not good, which seems to me to really not challenge people to deal with having enough content to make something relevant, because you can't do everything in 30 seconds exactly,   Dan Swift ** 53:41 and what I found too. So this was very this was a little bit of a learning curve for me. So with, with the YouTube shorts that you have, they have to be a minute or less. I mean, now they're actually in the process of changing it to three minutes or less. I do not have that access yet, but it has Go ahead, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so. But what I'm finding Michael is that the people that so I might create this a great example. So I was interviewing a comedian in New York City, Meredith Dietz, awesome, awesome episode. But I was talking to her about becoming a comedian, and I made about four different shorts for her from her video, and I was doing a new one each week to kind of promote it. And the videos, for me, they were getting a lot I was getting anywhere between maybe 315 100 views on the short for me, that was awesome. For other people, you know, that might be nothing, but for me, that was awesome. But what I found was that the people that watch the shorts aren't necessarily the same people that watch the long form videos. So I'm or, or I might get subscribers from people that watch the shorts, but then they're not actually watching the video. And in the end, that kind of hurts your channel, because it's showing, it's telling the YouTube I'm gonna use air quotes, YouTube algorithm that my subscribers aren't interested in my content, and it ends up hurting me more. So anyone that's trying to play that game. And be aware of that. You know, you can't get more subscribers through shorts, but if you're not converting them, it's going to hurt you.   Michael Hingson ** 55:05 I can accept three minutes, but 30 seconds just seems to be really strange. And I was asked once to produce a demonstration of accessibe on a website. They said you got to do it in 30 seconds, or no more than a minute, but preferably 30 seconds. Well, you can't do that if, in part, you're also trying to explain what a screen reader is and everything else. The reality is, there's got to be some tolerance. And I think that the potential is there to do that. But it isn't all about eyesight, which is, of course, the real issue from my perspective. Anyway.   Dan Swift ** 55:41 Yeah, I completely agree. I think what YouTube is trying to do, and I believe in getting this from Tiktok, I think Tiktok has three up to three minutes. Actually, there might be 10 minutes now that I think about it, but, but I think they're trying to follow the trend, and it's like, let's make videos slightly longer and see how that goes. So be very curious to see how that all pans out.   Michael Hingson ** 55:58 Well. And I think that makes sense. I think there's some value in that, but 30 seconds is not enough time to get real content, and if people dumb down to that point, then that's pretty scary. So I'm glad to hear that the trend seems to be going a little bit longer, which is, which is a good thing, which is pretty important to be able to do. Yeah, I completely   Dan Swift ** 56:21 agree. Because like that, the trend right now, it's, you know, people, they want stuff immediately, and if you don't catch them in 10 seconds, they're swiping onto something else, which is which is very challenging, at least, especially for me and what I do. Who's   Michael Hingson ** 56:32 the most inspiring guest that you've ever had on your podcast?   Dan Swift ** 56:37 Michael, this is a good one. This is a good one. So the video for Ashley Mason. She is a social media marketing she created a social medi

Neues Browser Vertikale Tabs PWAs auf Basis von Firefox Ted Lasso returns Strongbox wurde verkauft Visible Zorker Interactive Fiction Database Geschichte von Zork: Exploring Zork, Part 1, Part 2, Part 3 Reguläres Zork direkt im Browser Photo-Ecke ORWO bringt wahrscheinlich … Weiterlesen → Der Beitrag TZ252 – Zwei Mann in Polen erschien zuerst auf Teezeit Podcasts.

Welcome to Dev Game Club, where this week we begin a new series on 1997's Interstate '76. We set the game a bit in its time, talk about Activision (almost as an afterthought), and then start getting into the characters and the vibe, of which there is much. Dev Game Club looks at classic video games and plays through them over several episodes, providing commentary. Sections played: Early mission or two Issues covered: a game time forgot, playing a sim game genre, a unique take on the sim genre plus car combat, prepping the sim elements vs the actual play, other games from that year, taking a formula and doing something different with it, modern exploitation-inspired games, exploitation cinema, grindhouse, other potential influences and inspirations, why you pick sparse environments, breakable cacti, a huge variety of games, low-cost film-making and democratization, vigilantes, a bland corporation, text adventures, a business and not a game company, seeing the impact of acquisition or mergers, character introductions, fake actors playing characters, character names, Groove Champion vs Stiletto Anyway, stylized and simplified characters, flat shading and seeing every polygon, connecting to the character in the cockpit and via the radio, naturally cinematic, stylized presence, jitteriness and physics, compounding errors, deterministic physics, preserving this game and finding ways to play it, just shipping a game, dealing with a controller vs keyboard.    Games, people, and influences mentioned or discussed: TIE Fighter (series), Starfighter, MechWarrior (series), Voltron, Diablo, Resident Evil, The Last Express, Fallout, GoldenEye, Castlevania: SotN, Age of Empires, Outlaws, Curse of Monkey Island, Dark Forces 2, Shadows of the Empire, Wing Commander: Prophecy, Final Fantasy VII, Mario Kart 64, Gran Turismo, PlayStation, Dark Forces, Final Fantasy Tactics, Wet, Kane and Lynch, Suda 51, Grasshopper Interactive, Killer 7, Death Race 2000, Russ Meyers, Death Proof, Mad Max (series), MegaMan 8, Kaeon, Cleopatra Jones, Enter the Dragon, Jim Kelly, Bruce Lee, Game of Death, Quentin Tarantino, Kill Bill, Fist of Fury, Starsky and Hutch, River Raid, Pitfall, David Crane, Atari, Call of Duty, Guitar Hero, Capcom, Blizzard, id Software, Interplay, Infocom, Zork (series), Witness, Enchanter (series), Ballyhoo, Lurking Horror, Electronic Arts, Bobby Kotick, Nintendo, BattleZone, Pac-Man, Jason Schreier, Play Nice: The Rise and Fall of Blizzard Entertainment, Hearthstone, Marvel Snap, Ultima (series), Bioware, Treyarch, Raven Software, Heretic/Hexen, Quake, Battletech/FASA Entertainment, Anachronox, Pam Grier, Chuck Norris, Dungeon Keeper, Half-Life 2, Indiana Jones and the Internal Machine, Video Game History Foundation, Star Wars: Episode I: Racer, Forza (series), Falcon (series), Dark Souls, Minecraft, LostLake86, Mors, Kirk Hamilton, Aaron Evers, Mark Garcia.   Errata: Lost Treasures of Infocom actually originally came out in 1991. We regret the error.  Next time: More I'76! Twitch Discord DevGameClub@gmail.com

In this podcast, Thomas Domville explores RYFT: A Timely Manor for iOS, an immersive audio-based mystery-adventure game designed for hands-free, voice-activated play. Inspired by classics like Myst, Monkey Island, and Zork, RYFT offers a unique experience where players navigate and interact entirely through voice commands.Game Overview:Setting: Players find themselves in Nexus Manor, a mysterious mansion beyond time, with no recollection of how they got there. Armed with a cryptic stone tablet covered in strange symbols, they must explore the estate to unravel its secrets.Gameplay: This fully audio-driven game allows players to:Move using voice commands such as “north,” “east,” “south,” and “west.”Verbally interact with objects and characters.Solve intricate puzzles by collecting and combining items.Engage with a fully voiced cast, each tied to The Master of the manor.Narrative: As they progress, players uncover recordings from a distressed girl, revealing a sinister scheme orchestrated by The Master. To aid her, they must navigate the sprawling mansion and uncover its hidden truths across time.Tune in to the podcast for a full demonstration of RYFT: A Timely Manor!RYFT: A Timely Manor on the App Store https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ryft-a-timely-manor/id1661569093TranscriptDisclaimer: This transcript was generated by Aiko, an AI-powered transcription app. It is not edited or formatted, and it may not accurately capture the speakers' names, voices, or content.Hello and welcome.My name is Thomas Domville, also known as AnonyMouse.In this podcast, I'm going to be covering an iOS game called Rift.It's the first chapter called A Timely Manor.It is a free game, which I think all of us could say we love, and it's kind of compelling.It's kind of a lot of fun.There's some similarities to this to previous games I've done in the past years or so, and I thought I'd just pass this game along to you.It is an audio based adventure game.So it's kind of a voice control type game.So it reminds me a lot of the older text adventure games where you are put in a room or whatever not be.For example, in our first scenario, we're left in a room that has a desk and a coat stand and stuff like that.And you'll see that we just completely use our voice alone.Now, as a bonus, I will show you is not all has to be done by voice.So for those that prefer just using the regular old screen, or if you have a braille display, that might be something that you want to take a look at as well.So check on the availability of if that or this game is available to you in your country app store.So without further ado, let's jump into Rift.Now the first thing I want to note out is that as always voiceover sometimes kind of butchered the words.And you're going to hear it pronounced it as right.It seems like no matter which voice I use, it says right.And that's because the spelling…

Guest: Bobby Kotick, former CEO of Activision Blizzard; and Bing Gordon, general partner at Kleiner PerkinsIn 2020, when President Trump signed the executive order that would ban TikTok in the U.S., Bobby Kotick called his old friend Steven Mnuchin. The former Secretary of the Treasury told him that, if TikTok's U.S. operations were to be sold to an American company, Microsoft would be the only bidder.A couple calls later, he reached ByteDance founder and CEO Zhang Yiming, who said he'd rather sell to Bobby than Microsoft. Concerned about his ability to get the deal done solo, Bobby called Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella and offered to make a joint bid. Nadella declined, but added, “ if the deal doesn't get done, we should sit down and talk about us buying Activision.” TikTok currently remains Chinese-owned, but three years later, Microsoft paid $75 billion for Activision Blizzard.Chapters:Mentioned in this episode: Harvard-Westlake School, Alison Ressler, Vivendi, Berkshire Hathaway, Bruce Hack and Arnaud de Puyfontaine, John Riccitiello and EA, Call of Duty, Bizarre Creations, Atari, Apple II, Commodore 64, Jean-Louis Gassée, Apple Lisa, Howard Lincoln, Philips, Magnavox Odyssey, Sutter Hill Ventures, Infocom and Zork, Toys-R-Us, Howard Hughes, E. Parry Thomas, Sun Valley, Thom Weisel, William Morris Endeavor, Guitar Hero, Davidson & Associates, Michael Morhaime, Allen Adham, World of Warcraft, Medal of Honor, Steven Spielberg, Michael Crichton, Chris Roberts, Overwatch, Tencent, Time Warner, Jeff Bewkes, Sheryl Sandberg, Lean In, Lina Khan, Samsung, Elon Musk, James L. Jones, UFC, E. Floyd Kvamme, Toy Story 2, Procter & Gamble, Ron Doornik, John Lasseter, Xerox PARC, Shigeru Miyamoto, Satoru Iwata, Goldeneye 007, James Bond, Barbara Broccoli, Oculus, Apple Vision Pro, Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, Sam Altman, Mustafa Suleyman, Spotify, Candy Crush Saga, Disney, Phil Spencer, Clarence Avant and Motown Records. Links:Connect with BobbyTwitterLinkedInConnect with BingTwitterLinkedInConnect with JoubinTwitterLinkedInEmail: grit@kleinerperkins.com Learn more about Kleiner PerkinsThis episode was edited by Eric Johnson from LightningPod.fm

Today, we're wrapping up an incredible year by reflecting on some of the most iconic moments in gaming history that we explored in 2024. From celebrating the anniversaries of beloved titles like Minecraft and World of Warcraft to diving into foundational classics like Zork and the Atari 2600, it's been a year filled with memorable milestones. We also revisited legendary franchises such as The Legend of Zelda, Crash Bandicoot, and Super Mario 64, while exploring unique and quirky titles like Dark Seed and Amnesia. As we look back, we're reminded of the rich tapestry of gaming's past and eagerly look forward to uncovering more stories in the coming year. So, join us as we celebrate the year gone by and get ready for what's next on today's trip down Memory Card Lane. Find out more at https://a-trip-down-memory-card-lane.pinecast.co

We are back with another AI update about AI produced podcasts. And this time, we have a special guest joining us, Jill Walker Rettberg. In this episode Jill, Scott, and Jhave will discuss the new feature of Google's NotebookLM, that lets you listen to a podcast conversation about your source documents.   References Google. n. d. “NotebookLM”, NotebookLM. retrieved from https://notebooklm.google/.   Infocom. 1977. Zork. Personal Software. PDP-10 mainframe computer. https://www.pcjs.org/software/pcx86/game/infocom/zork1/.    Montfort, Nick. 2011. Curveship. https://nickm.com/curveship/index.html. 

My guest on this episode is Paige Maylott. Paige is a writer and gamer who works as an accessibility expert at McMaster University. Her first book, the memoir My Body Is Distant, was published by ECW Press in 2023. That book won an Independent Publisher Book Award for LGBTQ+ Non-Fiction, and was shortlisted for the Rakuten KOBO Emerging Writer Prize in the nonfiction category. Publishers Weekly said that “Maylott's gripping debut memoir covers her gender transition, divorce, and experiments with online relationships in thrillingly nonlinear fashion.” Paige and I talk about the cultural and personal importance of the early 80s video game Zork, about the decision she made, while writing her memoir, to always show herself in a worse light than anyone else, and about how she struggled with the idea of writing a second memoir—but why she is doing it anyway. This podcast is produced and hosted by Nathan Whitlock, in partnership with The Walrus. Music: "simple-hearted thing" by Alex Lukashevsky. Used with permission.

OpenAI DevDay is almost here! Per tradition, we are hosting a DevDay pregame event for everyone coming to town! Join us with demos and gossip!Also sign up for related events across San Francisco: the AI DevTools Night, the xAI open house, the Replicate art show, the DevDay Watch Party (for non-attendees), Hack Night with OpenAI at Cloudflare. For everyone else, join the Latent Space Discord for our online watch party and find fellow AI Engineers in your city.OpenAI's recent o1 release (and Reflection 70b debacle) has reignited broad interest in agentic general reasoning and tree search methods.While we have covered some of the self-taught reasoning literature on the Latent Space Paper Club, it is notable that the Eric Zelikman ended up at xAI, whereas OpenAI's hiring of Noam Brown and now Shunyu suggests more interest in tool-using chain of thought/tree of thought/generator-verifier architectures for Level 3 Agents.We were more than delighted to learn that Shunyu is a fellow Latent Space enjoyer, and invited him back (after his first appearance on our NeurIPS 2023 pod) for a look through his academic career with Harrison Chase (one year after his first LS show).ReAct: Synergizing Reasoning and Acting in Language Modelspaper linkFollowing seminal Chain of Thought papers from Wei et al and Kojima et al, and reflecting on lessons from building the WebShop human ecommerce trajectory benchmark, Shunyu's first big hit, the ReAct paper showed that using LLMs to “generate both reasoning traces and task-specific actions in an interleaved manner” achieved remarkably greater performance (less hallucination/error propagation, higher ALFWorld/WebShop benchmark success) than CoT alone. In even better news, ReAct scales fabulously with finetuning:As a member of the elite Princeton NLP group, Shunyu was also a coauthor of the Reflexion paper, which we discuss in this pod.Tree of Thoughtspaper link hereShunyu's next major improvement on the CoT literature was Tree of Thoughts:Language models are increasingly being deployed for general problem solving across a wide range of tasks, but are still confined to token-level, left-to-right decision-making processes during inference. This means they can fall short in tasks that require exploration, strategic lookahead, or where initial decisions play a pivotal role…ToT allows LMs to perform deliberate decision making by considering multiple different reasoning paths and self-evaluating choices to decide the next course of action, as well as looking ahead or backtracking when necessary to make global choices.The beauty of ToT is it doesnt require pretraining with exotic methods like backspace tokens or other MCTS architectures. You can listen to Shunyu explain ToT in his own words on our NeurIPS pod, but also the ineffable Yannic Kilcher:Other WorkWe don't have the space to summarize the rest of Shunyu's work, you can listen to our pod with him now, and recommend the CoALA paper and his initial hit webinar with Harrison, today's guest cohost:as well as Shunyu's PhD Defense Lecture:as well as Shunyu's latest lecture covering a Brief History of LLM Agents:As usual, we are live on YouTube! Show Notes* Harrison Chase* LangChain, LangSmith, LangGraph* Shunyu Yao* Alec Radford* ReAct Paper* Hotpot QA* Tau Bench* WebShop* SWE-Agent* SWE-Bench* Trees of Thought* CoALA Paper* Related Episodes* Our Thomas Scialom (Meta) episode* Shunyu on our NeurIPS 2023 Best Papers episode* Harrison on our LangChain episode* Mentions* Sierra* Voyager* Jason Wei* Tavily* SERP API* ExaTimestamps* [00:00:00] Opening Song by Suno* [00:03:00] Introductions* [00:06:16] The ReAct paper* [00:12:09] Early applications of ReAct in LangChain* [00:17:15] Discussion of the Reflection paper* [00:22:35] Tree of Thoughts paper and search algorithms in language models* [00:27:21] SWE-Agent and SWE-Bench for coding benchmarks* [00:39:21] CoALA: Cognitive Architectures for Language Agents* [00:45:24] Agent-Computer Interfaces (ACI) and tool design for agents* [00:49:24] Designing frameworks for agents vs humans* [00:53:52] UX design for AI applications and agents* [00:59:53] Data and model improvements for agent capabilities* [01:19:10] TauBench* [01:23:09] Promising areas for AITranscriptAlessio [00:00:01]: Hey, everyone, welcome to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO of Residence at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Small AI.Swyx [00:00:12]: Hey, and today we have a super special episode. I actually always wanted to take like a selfie and go like, you know, POV, you're about to revolutionize the world of agents because we have two of the most awesome hiring agents in the house. So first, we're going to welcome back Harrison Chase. Welcome. Excited to be here. What's new with you recently in sort of like the 10, 20 second recap?Harrison [00:00:34]: Linkchain, Linksmith, Lingraph, pushing on all of them. Lots of cool stuff related to a lot of the stuff that we're going to talk about today, probably.Swyx [00:00:42]: Yeah.Alessio [00:00:43]: We'll mention it in there. And the Celtics won the title.Swyx [00:00:45]: And the Celtics won the title. You got that going on for you. I don't know. Is that like floorball? Handball? Baseball? Basketball.Alessio [00:00:52]: Basketball, basketball.Harrison [00:00:53]: Patriots aren't looking good though, so that's...Swyx [00:00:56]: And then Xun Yu, you've also been on the pod, but only in like a sort of oral paper presentation capacity. But welcome officially to the LinkedSpace pod.Shunyu [00:01:03]: Yeah, I've been a huge fan. So thanks for the invitation. Thanks.Swyx [00:01:07]: Well, it's an honor to have you on. You're one of like, you're maybe the first PhD thesis defense I've ever watched in like this AI world, because most people just publish single papers, but every paper of yours is a banger. So congrats.Shunyu [00:01:22]: Thanks.Swyx [00:01:24]: Yeah, maybe we'll just kick it off with, you know, what was your journey into using language models for agents? I like that your thesis advisor, I didn't catch his name, but he was like, you know... Karthik. Yeah. It's like, this guy just wanted to use language models and it was such a controversial pick at the time. Right.Shunyu [00:01:39]: The full story is that in undergrad, I did some computer vision research and that's how I got into AI. But at the time, I feel like, you know, you're just composing all the GAN or 3D perception or whatever together and it's not exciting anymore. And one day I just see this transformer paper and that's really cool. But I really got into language model only when I entered my PhD and met my advisor Karthik. So he was actually the second author of GPT-1 when he was like a visiting scientist at OpenAI. With Alec Redford?Swyx [00:02:10]: Yes.Shunyu [00:02:11]: Wow. That's what he told me. It's like back in OpenAI, they did this GPT-1 together and Ilya just said, Karthik, you should stay because we just solved the language. But apparently Karthik is not fully convinced. So he went to Princeton, started his professorship and I'm really grateful. So he accepted me as a student, even though I have no prior knowledge in NLP. And you know, we just met for the first time and he's like, you know, what do you want to do? And I'm like, you know, you have done those test game scenes. That's really cool. I wonder if we can just redo them with language models. And that's how the whole journey began. Awesome.Alessio [00:02:46]: So GPT-2 was out at the time? Yes, that was 2019.Shunyu [00:02:48]: Yeah.Alessio [00:02:49]: Way too dangerous to release. And then I guess the first work of yours that I came across was React, which was a big part of your defense. But also Harrison, when you came on The Pockets last year, you said that was one of the first papers that you saw when you were getting inspired for BlankChain. So maybe give a recap of why you thought it was cool, because you were already working in AI and machine learning. And then, yeah, you can kind of like intro the paper formally. What was that interesting to you specifically?Harrison [00:03:16]: Yeah, I mean, I think the interesting part was using these language models to interact with the outside world in some form. And I think in the paper, you mostly deal with Wikipedia. And I think there's some other data sets as well. But the outside world is the outside world. And so interacting with things that weren't present in the LLM and APIs and calling into them and thinking about the React reasoning and acting and kind of like combining those together and getting better results. I'd been playing around with LLMs, been talking with people who were playing around with LLMs. People were trying to get LLMs to call into APIs, do things, and it was always, how can they do it more reliably and better? And so this paper was basically a step in that direction. And I think really interesting and also really general as well. Like I think that's part of the appeal is just how general and simple in a good way, I think the idea was. So that it was really appealing for all those reasons.Shunyu [00:04:07]: Simple is always good. Yeah.Alessio [00:04:09]: Do you have a favorite part? Because I have one favorite part from your PhD defense, which I didn't understand when I read the paper, but you said something along the lines, React doesn't change the outside or the environment, but it does change the insight through the context, putting more things in the context. You're not actually changing any of the tools around you to work for you, but you're changing how the model thinks. And I think that was like a very profound thing when I, not that I've been using these tools for like 18 months. I'm like, I understand what you meant, but like to say that at the time you did the PhD defense was not trivial. Yeah.Shunyu [00:04:41]: Another way to put it is like thinking can be an extra tool that's useful.Alessio [00:04:47]: Makes sense. Checks out.Swyx [00:04:49]: Who would have thought? I think it's also more controversial within his world because everyone was trying to use RL for agents. And this is like the first kind of zero gradient type approach. Yeah.Shunyu [00:05:01]: I think the bigger kind of historical context is that we have this two big branches of AI. So if you think about RL, right, that's pretty much the equivalent of agent at a time. And it's like agent is equivalent to reinforcement learning and reinforcement learning is equivalent to whatever game environment they're using, right? Atari game or go or whatever. So you have like a pretty much, you know, you have a biased kind of like set of methodologies in terms of reinforcement learning and represents agents. On the other hand, I think NLP is like a historical kind of subject. It's not really into agents, right? It's more about reasoning. It's more about solving those concrete tasks. And if you look at SEL, right, like each task has its own track, right? Summarization has a track, question answering has a track. So I think really it's about rethinking agents in terms of what could be the new environments that we came to have is not just Atari games or whatever video games, but also those text games or language games. And also thinking about, could there be like a more general kind of methodology beyond just designing specific pipelines for each NLP task? That's like the bigger kind of context, I would say.Alessio [00:06:14]: Is there an inspiration spark moment that you remember or how did you come to this? We had Trida on the podcast and he mentioned he was really inspired working with like systems people to think about Flash Attention. What was your inspiration journey?Shunyu [00:06:27]: So actually before React, I spent the first two years of my PhD focusing on text-based games, or in other words, text adventure games. It's a very kind of small kind of research area and quite ad hoc, I would say. And there are like, I don't know, like 10 people working on that at the time. And have you guys heard of Zork 1, for example? So basically the idea is you have this game and you have text observations, like you see a monster, you see a dragon.Swyx [00:06:57]: You're eaten by a grue.Shunyu [00:06:58]: Yeah, you're eaten by a grue. And you have actions like kill the grue with a sword or whatever. And that's like a very typical setup of a text game. So I think one day after I've seen all the GPT-3 stuff, I just think about, you know, how can I solve the game? Like why those AI, you know, machine learning methods are pretty stupid, but we are pretty good at solving the game relatively, right? So for the context, the predominant method to solve this text game is obviously reinforcement learning. And the idea is you just try out an arrow in those games for like millions of steps and you kind of just overfit to the game. But there's no language understanding at all. And I'm like, why can't I solve the game better? And it's kind of like, because we think about the game, right? Like when we see this very complex text observation, like you see a grue and you might see a sword, you know, in the right of the room and you have to go through the wooden door to go to that room. You will think, you know, oh, I have to kill the monster and to kill that monster, I have to get the sword, I have to get the sword, I have to go, right? And this kind of thinking actually helps us kind of throw shots off the game. And it's like, why don't we also enable the text agents to think? And that's kind of the prototype of React. And I think that's actually very interesting because the prototype, I think, was around November of 2021. So that's even before like chain of thought or whatever came up. So we did a bunch of experiments in the text game, but it was not really working that well. Like those text games are just too hard. I think today it's still very hard. Like if you use GPD 4 to solve it, it's still very hard. So the change came when I started the internship in Google. And apparently Google care less about text game, they care more about what's more practical. So pretty much I just reapplied the idea, but to more practical kind of environments like Wikipedia or simpler text games like Alphard, and it just worked. It's kind of like you first have the idea and then you try to find the domains and the problems to demonstrate the idea, which is, I would say, different from most of the AI research, but it kind of worked out for me in that case.Swyx [00:09:09]: For Harrison, when you were implementing React, what were people applying React to in the early days?Harrison [00:09:14]: I think the first demo we did probably had like a calculator tool and a search tool. So like general things, we tried to make it pretty easy to write your own tools and plug in your own things. And so this is one of the things that we've seen in LangChain is people who build their own applications generally write their own tools. Like there are a few common ones. I'd say like the three common ones might be like a browser, a search tool, and a code interpreter. But then other than that-Swyx [00:09:37]: The LMS. Yep.Harrison [00:09:39]: Yeah, exactly. It matches up very nice with that. And we actually just redid like our integrations docs page, and if you go to the tool section, they like highlight those three, and then there's a bunch of like other ones. And there's such a long tail of other ones. But in practice, like when people go to production, they generally have their own tools or maybe one of those three, maybe some other ones, but like very, very few other ones. So yeah, I think the first demos was a search and a calculator one. And there's- What's the data set?Shunyu [00:10:04]: Hotpot QA.Harrison [00:10:05]: Yeah. Oh, so there's that one. And then there's like the celebrity one by the same author, I think.Swyx [00:10:09]: Olivier Wilde's boyfriend squared. Yeah. 0.23. Yeah. Right, right, right.Harrison [00:10:16]: I'm forgetting the name of the author, but there's-Swyx [00:10:17]: I was like, we're going to over-optimize for Olivier Wilde's boyfriend, and it's going to change next year or something.Harrison [00:10:21]: There's a few data sets kind of like in that vein that require multi-step kind of like reasoning and thinking. So one of the questions I actually had for you in this vein, like the React paper, there's a few things in there, or at least when I think of that, there's a few things that I think of. There's kind of like the specific prompting strategy. Then there's like this general idea of kind of like thinking and then taking an action. And then there's just even more general idea of just like taking actions in a loop. Today, like obviously language models have changed a lot. We have tool calling. The specific prompting strategy probably isn't used super heavily anymore. Would you say that like the concept of React is still used though? Or like do you think that tool calling and running tool calling in a loop, is that ReactSwyx [00:11:02]: in your mind?Shunyu [00:11:03]: I would say like it's like more implicitly used than explicitly used. To be fair, I think the contribution of React is actually twofold. So first is this idea of, you know, we should be able to use calls in a very general way. Like there should be a single kind of general method to handle interaction with various environments. I think React is the first paper to demonstrate the idea. But then I think later there are two form or whatever, and this becomes like a trivial idea. But I think at the time, that's like a pretty non-trivial thing. And I think the second contribution is this idea of what people call like inner monologue or thinking or reasoning or whatever, to be paired with tool use. I think that's still non-trivial because if you look at the default function calling or whatever, like there's no inner monologue. And in practice, that actually is important, especially if the tool that you use is pretty different from the training distribution of the language model. I think those are the two main things that are kind of inherited.Harrison [00:12:10]: On that note, I think OpenAI even recommended when you're doing tool calling, it's sometimes helpful to put a thought field in the tool, along with all the actual acquired arguments,Swyx [00:12:19]: and then have that one first.Harrison [00:12:20]: So it fills out that first, and they've shown that that's yielded better results. The reason I ask is just like this same concept is still alive, and I don't know whether to call it a React agent or not. I don't know what to call it. I think of it as React, like it's the same ideas that were in the paper, but it's obviously a very different implementation at this point in time. And so I just don't know what to call it.Shunyu [00:12:40]: I feel like people will sometimes think more in terms of different tools, right? Because if you think about a web agent versus, you know, like a function calling agent, calling a Python API, you would think of them as very different. But in some sense, the methodology is the same. It depends on how you view them, right? I think people will tend to think more in terms of the environment and the tools rather than the methodology. Or, in other words, I think the methodology is kind of trivial and simple, so people will try to focus more on the different tools. But I think it's good to have a single underlying principle of those things.Alessio [00:13:17]: How do you see the surface of React getting molded into the model? So a function calling is a good example of like, now the model does it. What about the thinking? Now most models that you use kind of do chain of thought on their own, they kind of produce steps. Do you think that more and more of this logic will be in the model? Or do you think the context window will still be the main driver of reasoning and thinking?Shunyu [00:13:39]: I think it's already default, right? You do some chain of thought and you do some tool call, the cost of adding the chain of thought is kind of relatively low compared to other things. So it's not hurting to do that. And I think it's already kind of common practice, I would say.Swyx [00:13:56]: This is a good place to bring in either Tree of Thought or Reflection, your pick.Shunyu [00:14:01]: Maybe Reflection, to respect the time order, I would say.Swyx [00:14:05]: Any backstory as well, like the people involved with NOAA and the Princeton group. We talked about this offline, but people don't understand how these research pieces come together and this ideation.Shunyu [00:14:15]: I think Reflection is mostly NOAA's work, I'm more like advising kind of role. The story is, I don't remember the time, but one day we just see this pre-print that's like Reflection and Autonomous Agent with memory or whatever. And it's kind of like an extension to React, which uses this self-reflection. I'm like, oh, somehow you've become very popular. And NOAA reached out to me, it's like, do you want to collaborate on this and make this from an archive pre-print to something more solid, like a conference submission? I'm like, sure. We started collaborating and we remain good friends today. And I think another interesting backstory is NOAA was contacted by OpenAI at the time. It's like, this is pretty cool, do you want to just work at OpenAI? And I think Sierra also reached out at the same time. It's like, this is pretty cool, do you want to work at Sierra? And I think NOAA chose Sierra, but it's pretty cool because he was still like a second year undergrad and he's a very smart kid.Swyx [00:15:16]: Based on one paper. Oh my god.Shunyu [00:15:19]: He's done some other research based on programming language or chemistry or whatever, but I think that's the paper that got the attention of OpenAI and Sierra.Swyx [00:15:28]: For those who haven't gone too deep on it, the way that you present the inside of React, can you do that also for reflection? Yeah.Shunyu [00:15:35]: I think one way to think of reflection is that the traditional idea of reinforcement learning is you have a scalar reward and then you somehow back-propagate the signal of the scalar reward to the rest of your neural network through whatever algorithm, like policy grading or A2C or whatever. And if you think about the real life, most of the reward signal is not scalar. It's like your boss told you, you should have done a better job in this, but you could jump on that or whatever. It's not like a scalar reward, like 29 or something. I think in general, humans deal more with long scalar reward, or you can say language feedback. And the way that they deal with language feedback also has this back-propagation process, right? Because you start from this, you did a good job on job B, and then you reflect what could have been done differently to change to make it better. And you kind of change your prompt, right? Basically, you change your prompt on how to do job A and how to do job B, and then you do the whole thing again. So it's really like a pipeline of language where in self-graded descent, you have something like text reasoning to replace those gradient descent algorithms. I think that's one way to think of reflection.Harrison [00:16:47]: One question I have about reflection is how general do you think the algorithm there is? And so for context, I think at LangChain and at other places as well, we found it pretty easy to implement React in a standard way. You plug in any tools and it kind of works off the shelf, can get it up and running. I don't think we have an off-the-shelf kind of implementation of reflection and kind of the general sense. I think the concepts, absolutely, we see used in different kind of specific cognitive architectures, but I don't think we have one that comes off the shelf. I don't think any of the other frameworks have one that comes off the shelf. And I'm curious whether that's because it's not general enough or it's complex as well, because it also requires running it more times.Swyx [00:17:28]: Maybe that's not feasible.Harrison [00:17:30]: I'm curious how you think about the generality, complexity. Should we have one that comes off the shelf?Shunyu [00:17:36]: I think the algorithm is general in the sense that it's just as general as other algorithms, if you think about policy grading or whatever, but it's not applicable to all tasks, just like other algorithms. So you can argue PPO is also general, but it works better for those set of tasks, but not on those set of tasks. I think it's the same situation for reflection. And I think a key bottleneck is the evaluator, right? Basically, you need to have a good sense of the signal. So for example, if you are trying to do a very hard reasoning task, say mathematics, for example, and you don't have any tools, you're operating in this chain of thought setup, then reflection will be pretty hard because in order to reflect upon your thoughts, you have to have a very good evaluator to judge whether your thought is good or not. But that might be as hard as solving the problem itself or even harder. The principle of self-reflection is probably more applicable if you have a good evaluator, for example, in the case of coding. If you have those arrows, then you can just reflect on that and how to solve the bug andSwyx [00:18:37]: stuff.Shunyu [00:18:38]: So I think another criteria is that it depends on the application, right? If you have this latency or whatever need for an actual application with an end-user, the end-user wouldn't let you do two hours of tree-of-thought or reflection, right? You need something as soon as possible. So in that case, maybe this is better to be used as a training time technique, right? You do those reflection or tree-of-thought or whatever, you get a lot of data, and then you try to use the data to train your model better. And then in test time, you still use something as simple as React, but that's already improved.Alessio [00:19:11]: And if you think of the Voyager paper as a way to store skills and then reuse them, how would you compare this reflective memory and at what point it's just ragging on the memory versus you want to start to fine-tune some of them or what's the next step once you get a very long reflective corpus? Yeah.Shunyu [00:19:30]: So I think there are two questions here. The first question is, what type of information or memory are you considering, right? Is it like semantic memory that stores knowledge about the word, or is it the episodic memory that stores trajectories or behaviors, or is it more of a procedural memory like in Voyager's case, like skills or code snippets that you can use to do actions, right?Swyx [00:19:54]: That's one dimension.Shunyu [00:19:55]: And the second dimension is obviously how you use the memory, either retrieving from it, using it in the context, or fine-tuning it. I think the Cognitive Architecture for Language Agents paper has a good categorization of all the different combinations. And of course, which way you use depends on the concrete application and the concrete need and the concrete task. But I think in general, it's good to think of those systematic dimensions and all the possible options there.Swyx [00:20:25]: Harrison also has in LangMEM, I think you did a presentation in my meetup, and I think you've done it at a couple other venues as well. User state, semantic memory, and append-only state, I think kind of maps to what you just said.Shunyu [00:20:38]: What is LangMEM? Can I give it like a quick...Harrison [00:20:40]: One of the modules of LangChain for a long time has been something around memory. And I think we're still obviously figuring out what that means, as is everyone kind of in the space. But one of the experiments that we did, and one of the proof of concepts that we did was, technically what it was is you would basically create threads, you'd push messages to those threads in the background, we process the data in a few ways. One, we put it into some semantic store, that's the semantic memory. And then two, we do some extraction and reasoning over the memories to extract. And we let the user define this, but extract key facts or anything that's of interest to the user. Those aren't exactly trajectories, they're maybe more closer to the procedural memory. Is that how you'd think about it or classify it?Shunyu [00:21:22]: Is it like about knowledge about the word, or is it more like how to do something?Swyx [00:21:27]: It's reflections, basically.Harrison [00:21:28]: So in generative worlds.Shunyu [00:21:30]: Generative agents.Swyx [00:21:31]: The Smallville. Yeah, the Smallville one.Harrison [00:21:33]: So the way that they had their memory there was they had the sequence of events, and that's kind of like the raw events that happened. But then every N events, they'd run some synthesis over those events for the LLM to insert its own memory, basically. It's that type of memory.Swyx [00:21:49]: I don't know how that would be classified.Shunyu [00:21:50]: I think of that as more of the semantic memory, but to be fair, I think it's just one way to think of that. But whether it's semantic memory or procedural memory or whatever memory, that's like an abstraction layer. But in terms of implementation, you can choose whatever implementation for whatever memory. So they're totally kind of orthogonal. I think it's more of a good way to think of the things, because from the history of cognitive science and cognitive architecture and how people study even neuroscience, that's the way people think of how the human brain organizes memory. And I think it's more useful as a way to think of things. But it's not like for semantic memory, you have to do this kind of way to retrieve or fine-tune, and for procedural memory, you have to do that. I think those are totally orthogonal kind of dimensions.Harrison [00:22:34]: How much background do you have in cognitive sciences, and how much do you model some of your thoughts on?Shunyu [00:22:40]: That's a great question, actually. I think one of the undergrad influences for my follow-up research is I was doing an internship at MIT's Computational Cognitive Science Lab with Josh Tannenbaum, and he's a very famous cognitive scientist. And I think a lot of his ideas still influence me today, like thinking of things in computational terms and getting interested in language and a lot of stuff, or even developing psychology kind of stuff. So I think it still influences me today.Swyx [00:23:14]: As a developer that tried out LangMEM, the way I view it is just it's a materialized view of a stream of logs. And if anything, that's just useful for context compression. I don't have to use the full context to run it over everything. But also it's kind of debuggable. If it's wrong, I can show it to the user, the user can manually fix it, and I can carry on. That's a really good analogy. I like that. I'm going to steal that. Sure. Please, please. You know I'm bullish on memory databases. I guess, Tree of Thoughts? Yeah, Tree of Thoughts.Shunyu [00:23:39]: I feel like I'm relieving the defense in like a podcast format. Yeah, no.Alessio [00:23:45]: I mean, you had a banger. Well, this is the one where you're already successful and we just highlight the glory. It was really good. You mentioned that since thinking is kind of like taking an action, you can use action searching algorithms to think of thinking. So just like you will use Tree Search to find the next thing. And the idea behind Tree of Thought is that you generate all these possible outcomes and then find the best tree to get to the end. Maybe back to the latency question, you can't really do that if you have to respond in real time. So what are maybe some of the most helpful use cases for things like this? Where have you seen people adopt it where the high latency is actually worth the wait?Shunyu [00:24:21]: For things that you don't care about latency, obviously. For example, if you're trying to do math, if you're just trying to come up with a proof. But I feel like one type of task is more about searching for a solution. You can try a hundred times, but if you find one solution, that's good. For example, if you're finding a math proof or if you're finding a good code to solve a problem or whatever, I think another type of task is more like reacting. For example, if you're doing customer service, you're like a web agent booking a ticket for an end user. Those are more reactive kind of tasks, or more real-time tasks. You have to do things fast. They might be easy, but you have to do it reliably. And you care more about can you solve 99% of the time out of a hundred. But for the type of search type of tasks, then you care more about can I find one solution out of a hundred. So it's kind of symmetric and different.Alessio [00:25:11]: Do you have any data or intuition from your user base? What's the split of these type of use cases? How many people are doing more reactive things and how many people are experimenting with deep, long search?Harrison [00:25:23]: I would say React's probably the most popular. I think there's aspects of reflection that get used. Tree of thought, probably the least so. There's a great tweet from Jason Wei, I think you're now a colleague, and he was talking about prompting strategies and how he thinks about them. And I think the four things that he had was, one, how easy is it to implement? How much compute does it take? How many tasks does it solve? And how much does it improve on those tasks? And I'd add a fifth, which is how likely is it to be relevant when the next generation of models come out? And I think if you look at those axes and then you look at React, reflection, tree of thought, it tracks that the ones that score better are used more. React is pretty easy to implement. Tree of thought's pretty hard to implement. The amount of compute, yeah, a lot more for tree of thought. The tasks and how much it improves, I don't have amazing visibility there. But I think if we're comparing React versus tree of thought, React just dominates the first two axes so much that my question around that was going to be like, how do you think about these prompting strategies, cognitive architectures, whatever you want to call them? When you're thinking of them, what are the axes that you're judging them on in your head when you're thinking whether it's a good one or a less good one?Swyx [00:26:38]: Right.Shunyu [00:26:39]: Right. I think there is a difference between a prompting method versus research, in the sense that for research, you don't really even care about does it actually work on practical tasks or does it help? Whatever. I think it's more about the idea or the principle, right? What is the direction that you're unblocking and whatever. And I think for an actual prompting method to solve a concrete problem, I would say simplicity is very important because the simpler it is, the less decision you have to make about it. And it's easier to design. It's easier to propagate. And it's easier to do stuff. So always try to be as simple as possible. And I think latency obviously is important. If you can do things fast and you don't want to do things slow. And I think in terms of the actual prompting method to use for a particular problem, I think we should all be in the minimalist kind of camp, right? You should try the minimum thing and see if it works. And if it doesn't work and there's absolute reason to add something, then you add something, right? If there's absolute reason that you need some tool, then you should add the tool thing. If there's absolute reason to add reflection or whatever, you should add that. Otherwise, if a chain of thought can already solve something, then you don't even need to use any of that.Harrison [00:27:57]: Yeah. Or if it's just better prompting can solve it. Like, you know, you could add a reflection step or you could make your instructions a little bit clearer.Swyx [00:28:03]: And it's a lot easier to do that.Shunyu [00:28:04]: I think another interesting thing is like, I personally have never done those kind of like weird tricks. I think all the prompts that I write are kind of like just talking to a human, right? It's like, I don't know. I never say something like, your grandma is dying and you have to solve it. I mean, those are cool, but I feel like we should all try to solve things in a very intuitive way. Just like talking to your co-worker. That should work 99% of the time. That's my personal take.Swyx [00:28:29]: The problem with how language models, at least in the GPC 3 era, was that they over-optimized to some sets of tokens in sequence. So like reading the Kojima et al. paper that was listing step-by-step, like he tried a bunch of them and they had wildly different results. It should not be the case, but it is the case. And hopefully we're getting better there.Shunyu [00:28:51]: Yeah. I think it's also like a timing thing in the sense that if you think about this whole line of language model, right? Like at the time it was just like a text generator. We don't have any idea how it's going to be used, right? And obviously at the time you will find all kinds of weird issues because it's not trained to do any of that, right? But then I think we have this loop where once we realize chain of thought is important or agent is important or tool using is important, what we see is today's language models are heavily optimized towards those things. So I think in some sense they become more reliable and robust over those use cases. And you don't need to do as much prompt engineering tricks anymore to solve those things. I feel like in some sense, I feel like prompt engineering even is like a slightly negative word at the time because it refers to all those kind of weird tricks that you have to apply. But I think we don't have to do that anymore. Like given today's progress, you should just be able to talk to like a coworker. And if you're clear and concrete and being reasonable, then it should do reasonable things for you.Swyx [00:29:51]: Yeah. The way I put this is you should not be a prompt engineer because it is the goal of the big labs to put you out of a job.Shunyu [00:29:58]: You should just be a good communicator. Like if you're a good communicator to humans, you should be a good communicator to languageSwyx [00:30:02]: models.Harrison [00:30:03]: That's the key though, because oftentimes people aren't good communicators to these language models and that is a very important skill and that's still messing around with the prompt. And so it depends what you're talking about when you're saying prompt engineer.Shunyu [00:30:14]: But do you think it's like very correlated with like, are they like a good communicator to humans? You know, it's like.Harrison [00:30:20]: It may be, but I also think I would say on average, people are probably worse at communicating with language models than to humans right now, at least, because I think we're still figuring out how to do it. You kind of expect it to be magical and there's probably some correlation, but I'd say there's also just like, people are worse at it right now than talking to humans.Shunyu [00:30:36]: We should make it like a, you know, like an elementary school class or whatever, how toSwyx [00:30:41]: talk to language models. Yeah. I don't know. Very pro that. Yeah. Before we leave the topic of trees and searching, not specific about QSTAR, but there's a lot of questions about MCTS and this combination of tree search and language models. And I just had to get in a question there about how seriously should people take this?Shunyu [00:30:59]: Again, I think it depends on the tasks, right? So MCTS was magical for Go, but it's probably not as magical for robotics, right? So I think right now the problem is not even that we don't have good methodologies, it's more about we don't have good tasks. It's also very interesting, right? Because if you look at my citation, it's like, obviously the most cited are React, Refraction and Tree of Thought. Those are methodologies. But I think like equally important, if not more important line of my work is like benchmarks and environments, right? Like WebShop or SuiteVenture or whatever. And I think in general, what people do in academia that I think is not good is they choose a very simple task, like Alford, and then they apply overly complex methods to show they improve 2%. I think you should probably match the level of complexity of your task and your method. I feel like where tasks are kind of far behind the method in some sense, right? Because we have some good test-time approaches, like whatever, React or Refraction or Tree of Thought, or like there are many, many more complicated test-time methods afterwards. But on the benchmark side, we have made a lot of good progress this year, last year. But I think we still need more progress towards that, like better coding benchmark, better web agent benchmark, better agent benchmark, not even for web or code. I think in general, we need to catch up with tasks.Harrison [00:32:27]: What are the biggest reasons in your mind why it lags behind?Shunyu [00:32:31]: I think incentive is one big reason. Like if you see, you know, all the master paper are cited like a hundred times more than the task paper. And also making a good benchmark is actually quite hard. It's almost like a different set of skills in some sense, right? I feel like if you want to build a good benchmark, you need to be like a good kind of product manager kind of mindset, right? You need to think about why people should use your benchmark, why it's challenging, why it's useful. If you think about like a PhD going into like a school, right? The prior skill that expected to have is more about, you know, can they code this method and can they just run experiments and can solve that? I think building a benchmark is not the typical prior skill that we have, but I think things are getting better. I think more and more people are starting to build benchmarks and people are saying that it's like a way to get more impact in some sense, right? Because like if you have a really good benchmark, a lot of people are going to use it. But if you have a super complicated test time method, like it's very hard for people to use it.Harrison [00:33:35]: Are evaluation metrics also part of the reason? Like for some of these tasks that we might want to ask these agents or language models to do, is it hard to evaluate them? And so it's hard to get an automated benchmark. Obviously with SweetBench you can, and with coding, it's easier, but.Shunyu [00:33:50]: I think that's part of the skillset thing that I mentioned, because I feel like it's like a product manager because there are many dimensions and you need to strike a balance and it's really hard, right? If you want to make sense, very easy to autogradable, like automatically gradable, like either to grade or either to evaluate, then you might lose some of the realness or practicality. Or like it might be practical, but it might not be as scalable, right? For example, if you think about text game, human have pre-annotated all the rewards and all the language are real. So it's pretty good on autogradable dimension and the practical dimension. If you think about, you know, practical, like actual English being practical, but it's not scalable, right? It takes like a year for experts to build that game. So it's not really that scalable. And I think part of the reason that SweetBench is so popular now is it kind of hits the balance between these three dimensions, right? Easy to evaluate and being actually practical and being scalable. Like if I were to criticize upon some of my prior work, I think webshop, like it's my initial attempt to get into benchmark world and I'm trying to do a good job striking the balance. But obviously we make it all gradable and it's really scalable, but then I think the practicality is not as high as actually just using GitHub issues, right? Because you're just creating those like synthetic tasks.Harrison [00:35:13]: Are there other areas besides coding that jump to mind as being really good for being autogradable?Shunyu [00:35:20]: Maybe mathematics.Swyx [00:35:21]: Classic. Yeah. Do you have thoughts on alpha proof, the new DeepMind paper? I think it's pretty cool.Shunyu [00:35:29]: I think it's more of a, you know, it's more of like a confidence boost or like sometimes, you know, the work is not even about, you know, the technical details or the methodology that it chooses or the concrete results. I think it's more about a signal, right?Swyx [00:35:47]: Yeah. Existence proof. Yeah.Shunyu [00:35:50]: Yeah. It can be done. This direction is exciting. It kind of encourages people to work more towards that direction. I think it's more like a boost of confidence, I would say.Swyx [00:35:59]: Yeah. So we're going to focus more on agents now and, you know, all of us have a special interest in coding agents. I would consider Devin to be the sort of biggest launch of the year as far as AI startups go. And you guys in the Princeton group worked on Suiagents alongside of Suibench. Tell us the story about Suiagent. Sure.Shunyu [00:36:21]: I think it's kind of like a triology, it's actually a series of three works now. So actually the first work is called Intercode, but it's not as famous, I know. And the second work is called Suibench and the third work is called Suiagent. And I'm just really confused why nobody is working on coding. You know, it's like a year ago, but I mean, not everybody's working on coding, obviously, but a year ago, like literally nobody was working on coding. I was really confused. And the people that were working on coding are, you know, trying to solve human evil in like a sick-to-sick way. There's no agent, there's no chain of thought, there's no anything, they're just, you know, fine tuning the model and improve some points and whatever, like, I was really confused because obviously coding is the best application for agents because it's autogradable, it's super important, you can make everything like API or code action, right? So I was confused and I collaborated with some of the students in Princeton and we have this work called Intercode and the idea is, first, if you care about coding, then you should solve coding in an interactive way, meaning more like a Jupyter Notebook kind of way than just writing a program and seeing if it fails or succeeds and stop, right? You should solve it in an interactive way because that's exactly how humans solve it, right? You don't have to, you know, write a program like next token, next token, next token and stop and never do any edits and you cannot really use any terminal or whatever tool. It doesn't make sense, right? And that's the way people are solving coding at the time, basically like sampling a program from a language model without chain of thought, without tool call, without refactoring, without anything. So the first point is we should solve coding in a very interactive way and that's a very general principle that applies for various coding benchmarks. And also, I think you can make a lot of the agent task kind of like interactive coding. If you have Python and you can call any package, then you can literally also browse internet or do whatever you want, like control a robot or whatever. So that seems to be a very general paradigm. But obviously I think a bottleneck is at the time we're still doing, you know, very simple tasks like human eval or whatever coding benchmark people proposed. They were super hard in 2021, like 20%, but they're like 95% already in 2023. So obviously the next step is we need a better benchmark. And Carlos and John, which are the first authors of Swaybench, I think they come up with this great idea that we should just script GitHub and solve whatever human engineers are solving. And I think it's actually pretty easy to come up with the idea. And I think in the first week, they already made a lot of progress. They script the GitHub and they make all the same, but then there's a lot of painful info work and whatever, you know. I think the idea is super easy, but the engineering is super hard. And I feel like that's a very typical signal of a good work in the AI era now.Swyx [00:39:17]: I think also, I think the filtering was challenging, because if you look at open source PRs, a lot of them are just like, you know, fixing typos. I think it's challenging.Shunyu [00:39:27]: And to be honest, we didn't do a perfect job at the time. So if you look at the recent blog post with OpenAI, we improved the filtering so that it's more solvable.Swyx [00:39:36]: I think OpenAI was just like, look, this is a thing now. We have to fix this. These students just rushed it.Shunyu [00:39:45]: It's a good convergence of interests for me.Alessio [00:39:48]: Was that tied to you joining OpenAI? Or was that just unrelated?Shunyu [00:39:52]: It's a coincidence for me, but it's a good coincidence.Swyx [00:39:55]: There is a history of anytime a big lab adopts a benchmark, they fix it. Otherwise, it's a broken benchmark.Shunyu [00:40:03]: So naturally, once we propose swimmage, the next step is to solve it. But I think the typical way you solve something now is you collect some training samples, or you design some complicated agent method, and then you try to solve it. Either super complicated prompt, or you build a better model with more training data. But I think at the time, we realized that even before those things, there's a fundamental problem with the interface or the tool that you're supposed to use. Because that's like an ignored problem in some sense. What your tool is, or how that matters for your task. So what we found concretely is that if you just use the text terminal off the shelf as a tool for those agents, there's a lot of problems. For example, if you edit something, there's no feedback. So you don't know whether your edit is good or not. That makes the agent very confused and makes a lot of mistakes. There are a lot of small problems, you would say. Well, you can try to do prompt engineering and improve that, but it turns out to be actually very hard. We realized that the interface design is actually a very omitted part of agent design. So we did this switch agent work. And the key idea is just, even before you talk about what the agent is, you should talk about what the environment is. You should make sure that the environment is actually friendly to whatever agent you're trying to apply. That's the same idea for humans. Text terminal is good for some tasks, like git, pool, or whatever. But it's not good if you want to look at browser and whatever. Also, browser is a good tool for some tasks, but it's not a good tool for other tasks. We need to talk about how design interface, in some sense, where we should treat agents as our customers. It's like when we treat humans as a customer, we design human computer interfaces. We design those beautiful desktops or browsers or whatever, so that it's very intuitive and easy for humans to use. And this whole great subject of HCI is all about that. I think now the research idea of switch agent is just, we should treat agents as our customers. And we should do like, you know… AICI.Swyx [00:42:16]: AICI, exactly.Harrison [00:42:18]: So what are the tools that a suite agent should have, or a coding agent in general should have?Shunyu [00:42:24]: For suite agent, it's like a modified text terminal, which kind of adapts to a lot of the patterns of language models to make it easier for language models to use. For example, now for edit, instead of having no feedback, it will actually have a feedback of, you know, actually here you introduced like a syntax error, and you should probably want to fix that, and there's an ended error there. And that makes it super easy for the model to actually do that. And there's other small things, like how exactly you write arguments, right? Like, do you want to write like a multi-line edit, or do you want to write a single line edit? I think it's more interesting to think about the way of the development process of an ACI rather than the actual ACI for like a concrete application. Because I think the general paradigm is very similar to HCI and psychology, right? Basically, for how people develop HCIs, they do behavior experiments on humans, right? I do every test, right? Like, which interface is actually better? And I do those behavior experiments, kind of like psychology experiments to humans, and I change things. And I think what's really interesting for me, for this three-agent paper, is we can probably do the same thing for agents, right? We can do every test for those agents and do behavior tests. And through the process, we not only invent better interfaces for those agents, that's the practical value, but we also better understand agents. Just like when we do those A-B tests, we do those HCI, we better understand humans. Doing those ACI experiments, we actually better understand agents. And that's pretty cool.Harrison [00:43:51]: Besides that A-B testing, what are other processes that people can use to think about this in a good way?Swyx [00:43:57]: That's a great question.Shunyu [00:43:58]: And I think three-agent is an initial work. And what we do is the kind of the naive approach, right? You just try some interface, and you see what's going wrong, and then you try to fix that. We do this kind of iterative fixing. But I think what's really interesting is there'll be a lot of future directions that's very promising if we can apply some of the HCI principles more systematically into the interface design. I think that would be a very cool interdisciplinary research opportunity.Harrison [00:44:26]: You talked a lot about agent-computer interfaces and interactions. What about human-to-agent UX patterns? Curious for any thoughts there that you might have.Swyx [00:44:38]: That's a great question.Shunyu [00:44:39]: And in some sense, I feel like prompt engineering is about human-to-agent interface. But I think there can be a lot of interesting research done about... So prompting is about how humans can better communicate with the agent. But I think there could be interesting research on how agents can better communicate with humans, right? When to ask questions, how to ask questions, what's the frequency of asking questions. And I think those kinds of stuff could be very cool research.Harrison [00:45:07]: Yeah, I think some of the most interesting stuff that I saw here was also related to coding with Devin from Cognition. And they had the three or four different panels where you had the chat, the browser, the terminal, and I guess the code editor as well.Swyx [00:45:19]: There's more now.Harrison [00:45:19]: There's more. Okay, I'm not up to date. Yeah, I think they also did a good job on ACI.Swyx [00:45:25]: I think that's the main learning I have from Devin. They cracked that. Actually, there was no foundational planning breakthrough. The planner is actually pretty simple, but ACI that they broke through on.Shunyu [00:45:35]: I think making the tool good and reliable is probably like 90% of the whole agent. Once the tool is actually good, then the agent design can be much, much simpler. On the other hand, if the tool is bad, then no matter how much you put into the agent design, planning or search or whatever, it's still going to be trash.Harrison [00:45:53]: Yeah, I'd argue the same. Same with like context and instructions. Like, yeah, go hand in hand.Alessio [00:46:00]: On the tool, how do you think about the tension of like, for both of you, I mean, you're building a library, so even more for you. The tension between making now a language or a library that is like easy for the agent to grasp and write versus one that is easy for like the human to grasp and write. Because, you know, the trend is like more and more code gets written by the agent. So why wouldn't you optimize the framework to be as easy as possible for the model versus for the person?Swyx [00:46:24]: I think it's possible to design an interfaceShunyu [00:46:25]: that's both friendly to humans and agents. But what do you think?Harrison [00:46:29]: We haven't thought about that from the perspective, like we're not trying to design LangChain or LangGraph to be friendly. But I mean, I think to be friendly for agents to write.Swyx [00:46:42]: But I mean, I think we see this with like,Harrison [00:46:43]: I saw some paper that used TypeScript notation instead of JSON notation for tool calling and it got a lot better performance. So it's definitely a thing. I haven't really heard of anyone designing like a syntax or a language explicitly for agents, but there's clearly syntaxes that are better.Shunyu [00:46:59]: I think function calling is a good example where it's like a good interface for both human programmers and for agents, right? Like for developers, it's actually a very friendly interface because it's very concrete and you don't have to do prompt engineering anymore. You can be very systematic. And for models, it's also pretty good, right? Like it can use all the existing coding content. So I think we need more of those kinds of designs.Swyx [00:47:21]: I will mostly agree and I'll slightly disagree in terms of this, which is like, whether designing for humans also overlaps with designing for AI. So Malte Ubo, who's the CTO of Vercel, who is creating basically JavaScript's competitor to LangChain, they're observing that basically, like if the API is easy to understand for humans, it's actually much easier to understand for LLMs, for example, because they're not overloaded functions. They don't behave differently under different contexts. They do one thing and they always work the same way. It's easy for humans, it's easy for LLMs. And like that makes a lot of sense. And obviously adding types is another one. Like type annotations only help give extra context, which is really great. So that's the agreement. And then a disagreement is that when I use structured output to do my chain of thought, I have found that I change my field names to hint to the LLM of what the field is supposed to do. So instead of saying topics, I'll say candidate topics. And that gives me a better result because the LLM was like, ah, this is just a draft thing I can use for chain of thought. And instead of like summaries, I'll say topic summaries to link the previous field to the current field. So like little stuff like that, I find myself optimizing for the LLM where I, as a human, would never do that. Interesting.Shunyu [00:48:32]: It's kind of like the way you optimize the prompt, it might be different for humans and for machines. You can have a common ground that's both clear for humans and agents, but to improve the human performance versus improving the agent performance, they might move to different directions.Swyx [00:48:48]: Might move different directions. There's a lot more use of metadata as well, like descriptions, comments, code comments, annotations and stuff like that. Yeah.Harrison [00:48:56]: I would argue that's just you communicatingSwyx [00:48:58]: to the agent what it should do.Harrison [00:49:00]: And maybe you need to communicate a little bit more than to humans because models aren't quite good enough yet.Swyx [00:49:06]: But like, I don't think that's crazy.Harrison [00:49:07]: I don't think that's like- It's not crazy.Swyx [00:49:09]: I will bring this in because it just happened to me yesterday. I was at the cursor office. They held their first user meetup and I was telling them about the LLM OS concept and why basically every interface, every tool was being redesigned for AIs to use rather than humans. And they're like, why? Like, can we just use Bing and Google for LLM search? Why must I use Exa? Or what's the other one that you guys work with?Harrison [00:49:32]: Tavilli.Swyx [00:49:33]: Tavilli. Web Search API dedicated for LLMs. What's the difference?Shunyu [00:49:36]: Exactly. To Bing API.Swyx [00:49:38]: Exactly.Harrison [00:49:38]: There weren't great APIs for search. Like the best one, like the one that we used initially in LangChain was SERP API, which is like maybe illegal. I'm not sure.Swyx [00:49:49]: And like, you know,Harrison [00:49:52]: and now there are like venture-backed companies.Swyx [00:49:53]: Shout out to DuckDuckGo, which is free.Harrison [00:49:55]: Yes, yes.Swyx [00:49:56]: Yeah.Harrison [00:49:56]: I do think there are some differences though. I think you want, like, I think generally these APIs try to return small amounts of text information, clear legible field. It's not a massive JSON blob. And I think that matters. I think like when you talk about designing tools, it's not only the, it's the interface in the entirety, not only the inputs, but also the outputs that really matter. And so I think they try to make the outputs.Shunyu [00:50:18]: They're doing ACI.Swyx [00:50:19]: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.Harrison [00:50:20]: Really?Swyx [00:50:21]: Like there's a whole set of industries that are just being redone for ACI. It's weird. And so my simple answer to them was like the error messages. When you give error messages, they should be basically prompts for the LLM to take and then self-correct. Then your error messages get more verbose, actually, than you normally would with a human. Stuff like that. Like a little, honestly, it's not that big. Again, like, is this worth a venture-backed industry? Unless you can tell us. But like, I think Code Interpreter, I think is a new thing. I hope so.Alessio [00:50:52]: We invested in it to be so.Shunyu [00:50:53]: I think that's a very interesting point. You're trying to optimize to the extreme, then obviously they're going to be different. For example, the error—Swyx [00:51:00]: Because we take it very seriously. Right.Shunyu [00:51:01]: The error for like language model, the longer the better. But for humans, that will make them very nervous and very tired, right? But I guess the point is more like, maybe we should try to find a co-optimized common ground as much as possible. And then if we have divergence, then we should try to diverge. But it's more philosophical now.Alessio [00:51:19]: But I think like part of it is like how you use it. So Google invented the PageRank because ideally you only click on one link, you know, like the top three should have the answer. But with models, it's like, well, you can get 20. So those searches are more like semantic grouping in a way. It's like for this query, I'll return you like 20, 30 things that are kind of good, you know? So it's less about ranking and it's more about grouping.Shunyu [00:51:42]: Another fundamental thing about HCI is the difference between human and machine's kind of memory limit, right? So I think what's really interesting about this concept HCI versus HCI is interfaces that's optimized for them. You can kind of understand some of the fundamental characteristics, differences of humans and machines, right? Why, you know, if you look at find or whatever terminal command, you know, you can only look at one thing at a time or that's because we have a very small working memory. You can only deal with one thing at a time. You can only look at one paragraph of text at the same time. So the interface for us is by design, you know, a small piece of information, but more temporal steps. But for machines, that should be the opposite, right? You should just give them a hundred different results and they should just decide in context what's the most relevant stuff and trade off the context for temporal steps. That's actually also better for language models because like the cost is smaller or whatever. So it's interesting to connect those interfaces to the fundamental kind of differences of those.Harrison [00:52:43]: When you said earlier, you know, we should try to design these to maybe be similar as possible and diverge if we need to.Swyx [00:52:49]: I actually don't have a problem with them diverging nowHarrison [00:52:51]: and seeing venture-backed startups emerging now because we are different from machines code AI. And it's just so early on, like they may still look kind of similar and they may still be small differences, but it's still just so early. And I think we'll only discover more ways that they differ. And so I'm totally fine with them kind of like diverging earlySwyx [00:53:10]: and optimizing for the...Harrison [00:53:11]: I agree. I think it's more like, you know,Shunyu [00:53:14]: we should obviously try to optimize human interface just for humans. We're already doing that for 50 years. We should optimize agent interface just for agents, but we might also try to co-optimize both and see how far we can get. There's enough people to try all three directions. Yeah.Swyx [00:53:31]: There's a thesis I sometimes push, which is the sour lesson as opposed to the bitter lesson, which we're always inspired by human development, but actually AI develops its own path.Shunyu [00:53:40]: Right. We need to understand better, you know, what are the fundamental differences between those creatures.Swyx [00:53:45]: It's funny when really early on this pod, you were like, how much grounding do you have in cognitive development and human brain stuff? And I'm like

2024. szeptember 11., szerda 8-9 óra MOHU: Január óta mintegy 300 millió palack jött vissza a MOHU rendszerén, ennek 63%-a műanyag, 32%-a fém, és csupán a 5%-a üveg. A hirtelen felfutást mutatja, hogy a fenti mennyiségből az első 7 hónapban 75m db, augusztusban pedig 165, db került visszaváltásra, szeptemberben az első 9 napban pedig már több mint 60 millió darab. Milyenek az eddigi tapasztalatok? Hogyan lehetne fejleszteni a rendszeren? Melyek a jogos kritikák? Milyen hazai sajátosságok vannak, amelyekkel elsők vagyunk? Szabó Szilvia, a MOHU gyártói felelősségi rendszerek vezetője volt a vendégünk. ARANYKÖPÉS: „Az ivás, a kártya, a tánc és a sport nem vezethet jóra!” (Ilosvay Lajos professzor, a Műegyetem dékánja) GONDOLKODOM, TEHÁT VAGYON: A Hungary Innovation Summit keretében lesz egy beszélgetés "AI & Bionics" témakörben. A beszélgetés azt feszegeti majd neves, a tervek szerint a SzTAKI-tól és a győri Széchényi egyetemről érkező szakemberek részvételével, hogy mi a jelene és a jövője a technológiának ezen a területen. A program kérdésfelvetése („Is the revolution coming? Which will be the larger revolution? How will economy and society transform? Can we regulate it? How should the regulation work?”) provokatívan forradalomról beszél, de lehet, hogy ez már benne van a jelenünkben? A beszélgetés során a sci-fik világát kissé hátrébb tolva nézik meg a szakemberek, mire képes ma és a látható közeljövőben a technológia, amely használható, jótékony, más módon nem megoldható és biztonságosan kontrollálható! Mi az, ami kockázatos, milyen módszereink vannak a kontrollra? Egyáltalán látjuk-e a jövőt, érdemes-e erről beszélnünk? Zorkóczy Miklós lesz a beszélgetés vezetője, akitől kaptunk egy kis ízelítőt a témából.

Burnie and Ashley discuss bed sharing, Marvel apologies, daily Olympians, competitive shooting, cheese sponsors, overstaying your welcome in big ways and Zork.Support our podcast at: https://www.patreon.com/morningsomewhere

My guest today is the American video game developer Steve Meretzky. Born and raised in Yonkers, New York, he attended MIT, where he earned a degree in construction management. In 1981, after two years spent working in the construction industry, a friend asked him if he would like to become a tester for Infocom, a publisher that specialised in interactive fiction. He agreed and was soon invited to write a game of his own, the science fiction game Planetfall.After he included a reference to Douglas Adam's Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy in the game, my guest was invited to collaborate with Adams in adapting the novel into a best-selling game. In 1988 he wrote A Mind Forever Voyaging, an ambitious and politically charged work that stretched the boundaries of what a video game could do ––and saw him become one of the first interactive fiction writers admitted to the Science Fiction Writers of America.After stints working for Blue Fang Games, Playdom and King, he is currently VP of design at the mobile games company PeopleFun.LINKSBBC Documentary from 1985 takes us inside Infocom.Play 30th Anniversary Edition of Hitchhiker's Guide in your browser.Google's AI experiment with Zork...Hire Ed Hawkins to voice your game. Be attitude for gains. https://plus.acast.com/s/my-perfect-console. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Zork I is a timeless classic that continues to captivate players with its rich storytelling, challenging puzzles, and immersive world. Whether you're a seasoned gamer or new to the genre, this game offers a unique and rewarding experience that stands the test of time. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/ongamecast/support

my experience with Zork was a highly enjoyable and unforgettable journey into a world of fantasy, adventure, and mystery. The game's immersive world-building, engaging storytelling, challenging puzzles, and diverse characters all worked together seamlessly to create a truly memorable gaming experience. Despite its simple text-based format, Zork managed to captivate me from start to finish, challenging my mind, sparking my imagination, and leaving me hungry for more. If you're a fan of classic adventure games, intricate puzzle design, or immersive storytelling, I highly recommend giving Zork a try. You won't be disappointed. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/ongamecast/support

The Stupid History of ZorkBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-stupid-history-minute--4965707/support.

Ever wanted to know what it was like to play a text adventure back in the day? Join us as we poke around the edges of the Great Underground Empire and promptly get lost, stumped, and even die a few times.

There's plenty to chat about coming out of Gather Round. The Pies and Swans have the bye and we'll be without big dogs like Nick Daicos, Isaac Heeney and Brodie Grundy. What are the key trade plans this week? Move on James Jordon? Get to Sam Flanders or Dayne Zorko? Do we need to get Sam Clohesy? Roy, Calvin and Warnie cover plenty in a bumper episode. Episode Guide 1:00 - Warnie took a few more bites of the elephant. 3:50 - Calvin doesn't have any player in the top five ranked Fantasy players. 7:15 - Tom Green only scored 88 this week. 9:45 - With more than 20 mins on the bench in the last quarter, Massimo D'Ambrosio gets Warnie's negative three. 14:00 - Jeremy Sharp got the five votes in the Michael Barlow Medal after racking up a ton. 18:30 - The Bulldogs' sub duo of Jack Macrae and Caleb Daniel were Warnie's first two forwards selected in Draft. 21:00 - Which bye players do you hold and trade? 25:15 - "James Jordon to Sam Flanders" is the ideal trade this week" ... but what is Roy's flag? 29:00 - Gold Coast rookie Sam Clohesy is almost the must-have of the week. 36:00 - Is there a worry with Rowan Marshall after Ross Lyon's comments? 41:00 - Charlie Comben is an option under $400k after scoring 107. 44:30 - Most traded players and The Traders' early moves are revealed. 46:30 - Questions from social media - follow @AFLFantasy on Twitter, @aflfantasy on Instagram and like the Official AFL Fantasy facebook page. 49:10 - "I cannot tick off Jeremy McGovern". 56:00 - Calvin suggests Touk Miller is an under-priced premium. 58:30 - Jordan Clark has been a great player this year with his 90 scores every week. 59:10 - Can we trade a gun rookie? - - - - Find more from Roy, Calvin and Warnie. Click here for more content from The Traders. Like AFL Fantasy on Facebook. Follow @AFLFantasy on Instagram. Follow @AFLFantasy on X.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

To get you all excited for April 15th, Andrew joins Ben for a game review!  They were under the impression that math was fun… until they tried this game.  From relatively unknown game developer Intuit Inc. comes TurboTax!  Andrew and Ben are playing different versions of the game, so they share their varied experiences with each other and YOU!  Spoiler alert… as a game TurboTax is a dud, but as tax preparation software it's fairly solid.  Ben says, “NEEDS ZOMBIES!” 00:00:20 - The third person, dog of bag poop, and Andrew (the IRS) has set a deadline 00:02:20 - Ben and Andrew are playing different versions, and some facts about Intuit Inc. 00:04:42 - For ages 4+, Ben turns off the noise, weaker vibrations, callouses, and columns 00:06:51 - Canadian versions of TurboTax, Andrew the French spotter, and the circumflex  00:08:54 - The funny thing about French, Funk & Wagnalls, and the first AI Vice President    00:12:06 - The extra stuff and business edition, a serious side-thought, and back to taxes 00:14:41 - Some recent FTC drama, Andrew's example side-hustle, and tick infested scooters 00:16:30 - Starting with the story and narrative, kinda' like Zork, and Ben's story summary 00:18:43 - You can't get all the State DLC, 1099 talk, and don't get Ben started on stamps 00:21:23 - Thoughts on TurboTax's game mechanics, Andrew's solar buff, and the wrinkle 00:24:45 - Andrew's amended tax return side quest, round numbers, and the cost of coffee 00:26:06 - Too many rectangles, it's not a race, no customizable avatars, and the discussion 00:28:01 - FTC callback, micro transactions, currencies, upcoming regulations, and tips 00:32:02 - The passthrough, the Sega Genesis version, and why the previous year? 00:34:08 - Arizona and Oregon DLC, getting “the kicker,” and Ben's 3 ups and 3 downs 00:37:32 - Not compatible with Wave Financial, game saves, season passes, and zombies 00:39:34 - Andrew has stamps, not good for concrete, Ben's true story, and postage due 00:41:34 - Thumbs up or thumbs down, lathe adjacent, and borrowing the Office Assistant The FORMULA… Story and Narrative (SN) + Game Mechanics (GM) + Audiovisuals (AV) = a video game experience SN - Story / Narrative - With a name like TurboTax, you might think this is a racing game… you would be wrong!  In this mostly text based “adventure,” your story can be vastly different from someone else's due to the extensive story branching.  You start out playing the role of someone who has been giving money to a government over the course of a year, and now at the conclusion of the year, you are told you have to do math and fill out forms before April 15th. You are obviously the protagonist, but it's very difficult to determine who the adversary is.  GM - Game Mechanics - For the main part of the game you are either answering questions or if you prefer, filling out the forms directly.  That's really all of the gameplay… YAWN!  Even if you do fill out the forms and submit them to the government in time, you may still have to face a random boss fight in the form of an audit which can extend the playtime extensively.  AV - Audiovisuals - There is no music!  The UI is very simplistic… and not in a compelling way. There is a timer and a checkered flag at the top of the screen, but that's about as exciting as it gets.  Any sound effect in the game is utterly forgettable.  For the current generation of games, the graphics and audio should be much better.  Zombies are needed to add some excitement!   UPs - If you do a speed run you can be done very quickly - You can receive money which makes it seem like you have accomplished something - DLC is available for your State if you want to extend your gameplay DOWNs   - Although story the branching is extensive there are really only 2 endings either you owe or you get a refund and neither of those guarantee a “good ending” - Almost more fun to fill out the forms manually, at least with that you feel some sort of an accomplishment. - Extra data entry is required to actually submit your forms electronically unless you have a printer and stamps, but who other than Andrew has those handy. DO BUY… if you don't want to do your taxes manually DO PLAY… working tax payers have to play in some way  Note: In all seriousness, my REAL TurboTax experience was quick and easy.  I have a very simple return, so if your situation is similar I, would recommend it.  Follow Andrew / Partly Robot Industries on… His website: https://partlyrobot.com/ On Instagram: https://instagram.com/partlyrobot On TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@partlyrobot On Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/partlyrobot Follow Two Vague on… Our website: https://www.twovaguepodcast.com On Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/two_vague_podcast On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@twovaguepodcast On (ex-)Twitter: https://twitter.com/TwoVaguePodcast For show appearance and other inquiries, contact us at: twovaguepodcast@gmail.com References, Links, and Tags https://www.intuit.com/ https://www.ftc.gov/ #Podbean #DIYPodcast #ApplePodcast #VideoGames #Trivia #Comedy #Talkshow #2VP #TwoVaguePodcast #AprilFools #IntuitInc #TurboTax #TaxDay #NeedsZombies

Beware of grues, Goosebuddies! Your hosts Chad Quandt, Paul Ritchey, and Kevin Cole check out another Choose Your Own Adventure book based off one of the first adventure games ever: Zork! This 'What-Do-I-Do-Now" Book is Zork #1: The Forces of Krill by S. Eric Meretzky. Is Krill the Ganon of this world? Would we be shaking in our +1 Boots at the mention of his lizard men if we had played the original game? It seems Krill just likes hiding in holes in the ground, which isn't that much different than Tears of the Kingdom. We also discuss how delicious 'dino damage' used to look on toys. Enjoy the episode and stay alive! Book adventure begins: 12:00 OFF TOPICS: Daylight Savings Time, Bugs, Jurassic Park Battle Damage Toys, J. Kenji López-Alt, Bugs Part II You can support Goosebuds, get access to bonus episodes, join our secret Discord, and more at patreon.com/goosebuds   Dress your skeleton with Goosebuds apparel at goosebuds.store   Email: goosebuds@gmail.com   Twitter: @GoosebudsPod   Edited by Kevin Cole (@RealKevinCole)   Music by Seth Earnest (sethearnest.net)

Welcome to Dev Game Club, where this week we continue our series on rotoscoped games by hopping aboard The Last Express, the graphic adventure from Jordan Mechner and Smoking Car Productions of 1997 via publisher Broderbund. Dev Game Club looks at classic video games and plays through them over several episodes, providing commentary. Sections played: To Vienna (Tim) and past Epernay (Brett) Issues covered: our history with the game, playing the game on the iPad, the adventure game at the time, budget and sales, some history of the game, the edutainment industry, critical response, how many discs, cost of goods, the history of Epernay, generic settings vs the highly specific dates in the game, the overwhelm, jumping onto a moving train, photo research, pulling the brake, what to do with a dead body, trial and error, the various ways things can play out from just the first puzzle, rain in Europe in 1914, a digression into multiple speed CD-ROMs, getting into rotoscoping, a 3D modeled train with rotoscoped characters on top, chasing after a character in the hall, walk-boxes with Z values, the screen door effect, a linear game in space vs an open-ended game in time, synchronicity, the sense of a train trip, prioritizing animation vs input, mechanics-forward vs simulation-forward, what players care about and what they see. Games, people, and influences mentioned or discussed: Jordan Mechner, Broderbund, GoldenEye 007, Diablo, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, Fallout, Curse of Monkey Island, Riven, MYST, Jonathan Ackley, Larry Ahern, Quake, SW: Jedi Knight: DF2, Outlaws, LucasArts, Turok, Shadow Warrior, Hexen II, Duke Nuke'em, Postal, Age of Empires, Final Fantasy VII, Wing Commander: Prophecy, Xwing vs TIE Fighter, Colony Wars, Interstate '76, Mario Kart 64, Diddy Kong Racing, Grand Theft Auto, Gran Turismo, OddWorld, Sam and Max Hit the Road, Bethesda Game Studios, Bill Tiller, Day of the Tentacle, Sierra, Phantasmagoria, Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Father, Zoetrope Studios, Francis Ford Coppola, Smoking Car Productions, Tomi Pierce, Doug Carlston, Chris Remo, The Learning Company, Another World, Prince of Persia, Baldur's Gate, Final Fantasy VII, PlayStation, Sony, Daron Stinnett, Scream (series), Grim Fandango, Quadrilateral Cowboy, Blendo Games, Thirty Flights of Loving, Agatha Christie, Murder on the Orient Express, Paul Verhoeven, RoboCop, Basic Instinct, Starship Troopers, Elle, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Skyrim, Ron Gilbert, Waking Life, A Scanner Darkly, Deadline, Infocom, Zork, Ben Sarason, Arkham Asylum, Red Dead Redemption (series), RockStar, Tomb Raider (series), Brandon Fernandez, Core Design, Mario (series), Uncharted (series), Kirk Hamilton, Aaron Evers, Mark Garcia.  Next time: Finish the game (?)/ Explore further Errata and Extra: The lead animator on CMI was Mark Overney (!), and it was my mistake, I was thinking it had been Charlie Ramos Blendo Games is Brendon Chung Paul Verhoeven is Dutch, and he did direct Basic Instinct Links: The Last Express: Revisiting An Unsung Classic Twitch: brettdouville or timlongojr, instagram:timlongojr, Twitter: @devgameclub Discord DevGameClub@gmail.com

Few developers can boast careers spanning more than 4 decades, but today's guest, William Volk has developed games for virtually every platform released, covering every genre, including strategy, RPG, adventures, educational titles, puzzle games, and more. Sit back and enjoy the insights, memories, and experience of a true legend of the industry! Recorded October 2023 Get us on your mobile device: Android:  https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly92aWRlb2dhbWVuZXdzcm9vbXRpbWVtYWNoaW5lLmxpYnN5bi5jb20vcnNz iOS:      https://podcasts.apple.com/de/podcast/video-game-newsroom-time-machine And if you like what we are doing here at the podcast, don't forget to like us on your podcasting app of choice, YouTube, and/or support us on patreon! https://www.patreon.com/VGNRTM Send comments on twitter @videogamenewsr2 Or Instagram https://www.instagram.com/vgnrtm Or videogamenewsroomtimemachine@gmail.com Links: https://www.anagramquest.com/ https://www.mobygames.com/person/3264/william-d-volk/ He Put in a Bar, in the Back of His Car - https://youtu.be/pEQ_VLo4pBY?si=mw5p8i7-dlDo5-Zp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestake_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromemco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalon_Hill https://www.nytimes.com/1985/03/24/jobs/the-computer-telecommuters-say-theres-no-workplace-like-home.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Minsky https://www.mobygames.com/game/7390/ports-of-call/ https://www.mobygames.com/company/3165/aegis-interactive-entertainment/ https://www.macintoshrepository.org/6195-mac-challenger Infinite Loop - https://youtu.be/clxpPQbj234?si=aN1f215CSDnRmkVj https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LightWave_3D https://www.mobygames.com/game/9222/the-manhole/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperCard https://www.mobygames.com/game/1219/return-to-zork/ https://www.mobygames.com/game/44036/cosmic-osmo/ https://www.mobygames.com/company/434/cyan-worlds-inc/ https://www.mobygames.com/game/39698/rodneys-funscreen/ https://youtu.be/yZbJL5Egyzs?si=abJ5FJ_CS9O-wZju https://www.mobygames.com/company/42078/lightspan-inc/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realtime_Associates https://kidscreen.com/2001/10/01/lightspan-20011001/ https://psxdatacenter.com/games/U/L/LSP-010360.html https://www.gamezone.com/news/wayans_brothers_the_dozens_announced_at_e3/ https://www.pgconnects.com/hong-kong/speakers/william-volk/ https://www.gamedeveloper.com/production/william-volk-veteran-game-developer-mobile-pioneer https://apps.apple.com/us/app/trump-dump/id1070999857 https://www.apple.com/de/tv-pr/originals/extrapolations/ https://www.theclimatetrail.com/ https://www.calstate.edu/attend/student-services/Pages/esports.aspx https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Oscar-Clark/dp/1138428302 https://www.mobygames.com/game/52384/controller/ https://www.gamedeveloper.com/production/why-johnny-can-t-ship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act Copyright Karl Kuras

We're looking at the history of Infocom, and its most successful title, Zork. Our story begins with the development of Zork, and talks about how the gaming community contributed to its development. It continues with the formation of Infocom, talks about its acquisition by Activision, and looks at how the relationship between the two evolved. We'll wrap up with a brief look at the Zork series throughout time. Join us for the next great text adventure on today's trip down Memory Card Lane.

Season 5 Episode 25 Episode 161 News: Emulation / hacks / translations / homebrew games Infocom's ingenious code-porting tools for Zork and other games have been found Cozy PS2 title Boku no Natsuyasumi 2 has received a fan translation A collection of shaders to emulate the display of an NTSC signal through a CRT TV Shinsetsu Samurai Spirits Bushido Retsuden (Sam Sho RPG translation patch) Other odd or interesting things 'Atari 50' Is Getting More Games Via Free Updates, 12 Dropping Next Week Game Club Discussion: Double Dribble NBA Action ‘94  New Game Club Games: Chrono Trigger Dr. Mario 64   Game Club Link Tree Retro Game Club Discord server Bumpers: Raftronaut , Inverse Phase Threads, Facebook, Twitter, and  Instagram managed by: Zach Email us: email@retrogameclub.net ===================================== #retro #retrogames #retrogaming #videogames #classiccomputing #Infocom #Zork #PlayStation #RPGs #Atari #Atari50 #Basketball #DoubleDribble #NES #NBA #NBAAction94 #Genesis   

Scott Rettberg is this time joined by Center for Digital Narrative PI Nick Montfort. Together they dive into topics such as computational narrative systems, platform studies, and interactive fiction.  References Infocom. 1977. Zork. Personal Software. PDP-10 mainframe computer. https://www.pcjs.org/software/pcx86/game/infocom/zork1/.  Infocom. 1982. Deadline. Interactive fiction detective video game. Various platforms.  Infocom. 1984. The Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy. Interactive fiction video game. Various platforms.  Infocom. 1987. Bureaucracy. Interactive fiction video game. Various platforms.  Montfort, N. 1999. Winchester's Nightmare: A Novel Machine. Interactive fiction. Web edition: https://nickm.com/if/parchment/index.html?story=stories/winchest.z8.js.   Montfort, N. 2005. Twisty Little Passages: An approach to interactive fiction. MIT Press.  Montfort, N. 2006. Ad Verbum. Interactive fiction. Web edition: https://nickm.com/if/parchment/index.html?story=stories/adverbum.z5.js.  Wardrip-Fruin, N., & Montfort, N. 2003. The New Media Reader. MIT Press.  Hayles, K., Montfort, N., Rettberg, S., & Strickland, S. 2006. Electronic Literature Collection: Volume 1. https://collection.eliterature.org/1/.  Montfort, N., & Bogost, I. 2020. Racing the Beam: The Atari video computer system. MIT Press.  Rowberry, S. P. 2022. Four Shades of Gray: The Amazon Kindle platform. MIT Press.  Chandler, O., & Chandler, E. K. 2006. Goodreads. Social network site. https://www.goodreads.com/.  Custodio, A. 2020. Who are you? Nintendo's Game Boy advance platform. MIT Press.   Montfort, N. 2023. “Why I Am Not an Algorist.” In Poème Objkt Sbjkt, Paris: Librairie Galerie Métamorphoses, pp. 126–131.  Montfort, N. 2008. ppg256. (Perl Poetry Generator in 256 characters) series. https://collection.eliterature.org/2/works/montfort_ppg256/ppg256.html.  Stephens, P. 2015. The Poetics of Information Overload: From Gertrude Stein to Conceptual Writing. University of Minnesota Press.  Stephens, P. 2020. Absence of cCutter: Minimal Writing as Art and lLterature. MIT Press.  University of Bergen. n. d. “Center for Digital Narrative.” https://www.uib.no/en/cdn.  OpenAI. 2023. ChatGPT [Large language model]. https://chat.openai.com/chat.  Meehan, J. 1976. Tale-Spin. A program that writes simple stories. 

Rob and Ryan watched and break down Season 2, Episode 20 of the Big Bang Theory: The Hofstadter Isotope!**GIVE US A 5 STAR REVIEW ON APPLE PODCASTS AND BE ENTERED IN TO WIN A $100 GIFT CARD TO AMAZON! BETTER LISTEN TO THE EPISODE FOR DETAILS! Click the link below!https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/theoretical-nonsense-the-big-bang-theory-watch-a/id1623079414Don't forget to check out Rebecca's brisket video! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmZcfiSINyk00:12:11 - The Drake Equation00:29:46 - The differences between the Spider-Mans00:54:01 - Hellblazer Comic00:58:29 - Star Trek Crossover: Deep Space 9 + OG01:04:52 - The Zork buggy version01:09:49 - Sexiest underwear for men01:19:20 - "Couldn't be more wrong" Find us everywhere at: https://linktr.ee/theoreticalnonsense~~*CLICK THE LINK TO SEE OUR IQ POINT HISTORY TOO! *~~-------------------------------------------------Welcome to Theoretical Nonsense! If you're looking for a Big Bang Theory rewatch podcast blended with How Stuff Works, this is the podcast for you!  Hang out with Rob and Ryan where they watch each episode of The Big Bang Theory and break it down scene by scene, and fact by fact, and no spoilers! Ever wonder if the random information Sheldon says is true? We do the research and find out! Is curry a natural laxative, what's the story behind going postal, are fish night lights real? Watch the show with us every other week and join in on the discussion! Email us at theoreticalnonsensepod@gmail.com and we'll read your letter to us on the show! Even if it's bad! :) Music by Alex Grohl. Find official podcast on Apple, Stitcher, and Spotify https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/theoretical-nonsense-the-big-bang-theory-watch-a/id1623079414

Booting down; Unity, Drew Barrymore, Jennifer Hudson & Bill Maher have heard you & have been listening; so much water; Tesla class action; Wayne testing robotaxis in LA; TikTok tracking employees, introduces voluntary AI content labels; Google Bard now lets you double check answers by... Googling, settles privacy lawsuit; some of Elon's Neuralink implant monkeys have, indeed, died, but looking for human volunteers, blue checks to blue chips; Good Omens; the Wheel of Time; Amazon Prime Video adding ads; Russell Brand; Secret Chef; Star Trek; Sex Education; Slow Horses; Microsoft Paint; Mahjong; Apple Watch; Star Wars; Disneyland music; Descript; the Overton Paradox; Zork & retro gaming.Sponsors:Dark Web Academy - Head over to darkwebacademy.com and use code "gogfree" for complimentary access to ANY course!1Password - Get a great deal on the only password manager recommended by Grumpy Old Geeks! gog.show/1passwordPrivate Internet Access - Go to GOG.Show/vpn and sign up today. For a limited time only, you can get OUR favorite VPN for as little as $2.03 a month.Show notes at: https://gog.show/619FOLLOW UPUnity apologizes and promises to change its controversial game install fee policyMicrosoft's $69B Activision merger on track for green lightLas Vegas Authorities Want to Know How Much Water Companies Use Before Letting Them Move InFree Covid-19 TestsIN THE NEWSTesla Detroit Derivative Action SettlementWaymo begins testing the waters for a robotaxi service in Los AngelesTikTok Employees Recoil at Return-to-Office Tracker AppTikTok introduces a way to label AI-generated contentGoogle's AI assistant can now read your emails, plan trips, “double-check” answersGoogle settles California lawsuit over its location-privacy practicesGoogle Quietly Removes ‘Written By People' From Suggestions for Website OwnersHere are the details on the grisly deaths of Elon Musk's Neuralink monkeysElon Musk's Neuralink Seeks Volunteers for Brain Chip Implant StudyAirbnb Really Is Different NowMEDIA CANDYGood Omens Season 2The Wheel of TimeAmazon Prime Video will start showing ads from early next yearKate Winslet on War Photographer Lee Miller, and the Film She Was Born to MakeYouTube Demonetizes Russell Brand After Rape AllegationsSecret ChefSex Education season 4 review: A fine, if overstuffed, sendoffSlow Horses Season 3 Release Date Confirmed For December On Apple TV+The Pigeon Tunnel — Official Trailer | Apple TV+APPS & DOODADSMicrosoft Paint finally gets support for layers and transparencyMahjong Solitaire NETFLIXAmazon Restricts Authors to Self-Publishing Three Books a Day, a Totally Human AmountTHE DARK SIDE WITH DAVEThe CyberWireDave BittnerHacking HumansCaveatControl LoopApple Watch Ultra 2Star Wars Jedi: SurvivorDisneyland: Music Around the ParksYesterland!Disney's Polynesian Village Resort Music 6 Hour LoopEPCOT Theme Park Music & AmbienceDescript has added a new feature (in Beta) called “Regenerate.”The Overton ParadoxPlay Zork onlineCLOSING SHOUT-OUTSBritain Is Losing Its Precious PubsSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Yes we actually live streamed this one! Watch the VoD here: https://www.youtube.com/live/XQlI2Zqy3vg?si=dXzRwVi0g1b69x-U Keep up with everything Operation: Puppet does on our Linktree! https://linktr.ee/OperationPuppet   0:00 Intro We are living on video! 80's references! 64 is the best number of bits   7:02 The Puppet Pit Every Day is Halloween and Andrew is in the wrong house Our first Premium Puppet is done! Also, what is a premium puppet? 3D printing update Nosfera-talk! Join the Discord! https://discord.gg/USQdYP4CZc Buy us a Ko-fi! https://ko-fi.com/operationpuppet 21:56 Gizmotown   The Deck Nook -- No faster Decks in the next couple of years says Valve Lenovo Legion Go (AMD Ryzen Z1 Extreme/16GB RAM/512GB SSD) listed on BB at $949Cdn, Pre-order Oct 1 Microsoft, Google and Facebook are shoving "AI" into every hole they can find. Talk to your children and Venture Capitalists about consent. A live question and actual for-real answer! 45:55 Pixels and Tokens Microsoft is leaking! Microsoft is (probably) buying! UK regulators declare provisional approval for acquisition. Your reminder that as charming as Phil Spencer seems, monopolies are always bad for consumers  Diablo 4... still exits? I guess? Destiny 2 exploit was briefly accepted by Bungie, chaos ensued Our Top 5 Games of All Time completes with Kevin's Number 1:Atari Adventure ! Our Top 5 Game of All Time:   Andrew: Number 1: Final Fantasy 3 (1994) Number 2: Mass Effect 2 (2010) Number 3: Assassin's Creed 2 (2009) Number 4: Yakuza 0 (2017) Number 5: Fort Apocalypse (1982)   Jamie: Number 1. Sam and Max Hit the Road (1993) Number 2. Fallout: A Post Nuclear Role Playing Game (1997)  Number 3: Quake (1996) Number 4: Earthbound (1994) Number 5: Zork (1977)   Kevin: Atari Adventure (1980) Number 2: Neverwinter Nights (2002) Number 3: EverQuest (1999) Number 4: Assassin's Creed: Origins (2017) Number 5: Diablo 3 (2012)   Music Credits: Opening Music/Stinger: Funk Babe by emiliomerone. Audiojungle Broadcast License. Gizmotown: kiddpark, Freesound.org (Creative Commons 0 License). Pixels and Tokens: Kagateni, Freesound.org (Creative Commons 0 License) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

 Pixels and Puppets Episode 17: The Maquettecast   Keep up with everything Operation: Puppet does on our Linktree! https://linktr.ee/OperationPuppet   0:00 Intro 20 Minutes into the future Announcement! Ep 18 of the podcast will be live streamed on Twitch and YouTube! Fri Sept 22 probably around 8pm ET but we'll confirm the time on socials soon. 7:00 The Puppet Pit At long last a new Oracle episode was released! https://youtu.be/6Qlo3K7qhrQ?si=jpj-7lBwl6E-mv6V  Previous week's updates: Halloween begins, vertical mouth plate build stream 3D printed flat patterning works well! Join the Discord! https://discord.gg/USQdYP4CZc Buy us a Ko-fi! https://ko-fi.com/operationpuppet 29:48 Gizmotown The Deck Nook: Lenovo "Legion Go" has released some pricing and specs Switch 2 exists! Andrew has a new retro device (Anbernic RG405M) 52:56 Pixels and Tokens Kevin played Cyberpunk 2077 and... really enjoyed it? What? Starfield is out! At long last something new from Bethesda. Or is it? Lol skull and bones Our Top 5 Games of All Time continues with Jamie's Number 1 Time to Hit the Road! The Top 5 list so far: Andrew: Number 1: Final Fantasy 3 (1994) Number 2: Mass Effect 2 (2010) Number 3: Assassin's Creed 2 (2009) Number 4: Yakuza 0 (2017) Number 5: Fort Apocalypse (1982) Jamie: Number 1. Sam and Max Hit the Road (1993) Number 2. Fallout: A Post Nuclear Role Playing Game (1997)  Number 3: Quake (1996) Number 4: Earthbound (1994) Number 5: Zork (1977) Kevin: Number 2: Neverwinter Nights (2002) Number 3: EverQuest (1999) Number 4: Assassin's Creed: Origins (2017) Number 5: Diablo 3 (2012) Music Credits: Opening Music/Stinger: Funk Babe by emiliomerone. Audiojungle Broadcast License. Gizmotown: kiddpark, Freesound.org (Creative Commons 0 License). Pixels and Tokens: Kagateni, Freesound.org (Creative Commons 0 License) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

 Pixels and Puppets Episode 16: Bawls in Scagway   Keep up with everything Operation: Puppet does on our Linktree! https://linktr.ee/OperationPuppet   0:00 Intro Andrew is back from Alaska. Did not see Russia. Did see Scagway.  Jamie went to Gastown Remember Bawls? A Gamer drink for Gamerz   15:33 The Puppet Pit Recent builds: Sashay Divine, 2 Smols and FrankenHooman Forget removable arm rods, long live removable arms Join the Discord! https://discord.gg/USQdYP4CZc Buy us a Ko-fi! https://ko-fi.com/operationpuppet   40:00 Gizmotown iPads eh? The Deck Nook: Playstation Portal: $199.99, and it's bad, actually Happy 30th birthday, Debian! Live Linux upgrading! Andrew has retro issues AMD's FSR3 doesn't need hardware, looks great?   1:37:04 Pixels and Tokens Charles Martinet is being sent to the Voice Actor farm in Upstate New York Gamescom happened. There were games. Warhammer 40K Darktide Oct 4 on Xbox/Gamepass After a season that burned out The Fireteam Destiny 2 might be good again? Our Top 5 Games of All Time continues with Andrew's Number 1!   The Top 5 list so far:   Andrew: Number 1: Final Fantasy 3 (1994) Number 2: Mass Effect 2 (2010) Number 3: Assassin's Creed 2 (2009) Number 4: Yakuza 0 (2017) Number 5: Fort Apocalypse (1982)   Jamie: Number 2. Fallout: A Post Nuclear Role Playing Game (1997)  Number 3: Quake (1996) Number 4: Earthbound (1994) Number 5: Zork (1977)   Kevin: Number 2: Neverwinter Nights (2002) Number 3: EverQuest (1999) Number 4: Assassin's Creed: Origins (2017) Number 5: Diablo 3 (2012)   Music Credits: Opening Music/Stinger: Funk Babe by emiliomerone. Audiojungle Broadcast License. Gizmotown: kiddpark, Freesound.org (Creative Commons 0 License). Pixels and Tokens: Kagateni, Freesound.org (Creative Commons 0 License) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Dev Game Club, where this week we continue our series on 1991's Eye of the Beholder. We talk quite a bit about adaptation and the things that are not entirely.... fun... about D&D. Dev Game Club looks at classic video games and plays through them over several episodes, providing commentary. Sections played: Up to level 10 or 11 Issues covered: Discord Game Club, finding the dwarves, the injured dwarf, information as a reward, inconsistent locks, messages you can only read if you have a dwarf, using up keys and not knowing when you should use them, communities below ground, "Xanathar: he's kind of a big deal," history in the built environment, the sewer map, "feelies," wishing the computer would do the rules for us... or not?, translation of D&D, the problems of adaptation, diving into the movie, respawning hellhounds and imagining hell, what's a xorn?, puzzle opacity, good puzzles, holdover concepts that stick around, level connectivity, the pleasures of linking up segments of map, removing useful friction, games where there's not a lot of high hights nor low lows, podcast games, having to learn the world and feeling the mastery, great connections in Dark Souls, landmarking and not wanting a map. Games, people, and influences mentioned or discussed: D&D, Discord Game Club, Artimage, Mark Garcia, BioStats, Final Fantasy IX, Kotaku, Journey to the Center of the Earth, Temple of Elemental Evil, Infocom, Zork (series), Grim Fandango, Full Throttle, Republic Commando, Baldur's Gate (series), Diablo, Chris Pine, Ultima Underworld, Richard Garriott, System Shock, King's Quest, Assassin's Creed, World of Warcraft, Dark Souls, Ico, Dragon/Dungeon magazines, Kirk Hamilton, Aaron Evers.  Next time: Finish the game! Twitch: brettdouville or timlongojr, instagram:timlongojr, Twitter: @devgameclub Discord DevGameClub@gmail.com

Pixels and Puppets Episode 15: The Not Parzivalcast   Keep up with everything Operation: Puppet does on our Linktree! https://linktr.ee/OperationPuppet   0:00 Intro   We are again Andrewless, and he is Lancelot The The The? Scraping Puppets off the Wheel? (JG Thirlwell reference)   4:53 The Puppet Pit Recent builds: The last commissions are done, starting on restocking the shops, and a Hooman! Shoutout Scarlet! 3D Printer Update Live prototyping! Join the Discord! https://discord.gg/USQdYP4CZc Buy us a Ko-fi! https://ko-fi.com/operationpuppet 39:18 Gizmotown   The Deck Nook: Valve has just started selling Certified Refurbished Steam Decks, a good way to get into a Deck Nook of your own for cheaper! Out with the Mac Minis and in with the NUCs! Jamie has pivoted to a Beelink SEi11 for his Plex needs. Nintendo Switch Hacking and You!   1:17:14 Pixels and Tokens   Kevin has BG3 thoughts. You won't like them. He also has thoughts about what you can play that isn't BG3. Our Top 5 Games of All Time continues with Kevin's Number 2 - Neverwinter Nights (2002)! We also talked about Neverwinter on Ep 3: https://sites.libsyn.com/450720/site/pixels-and-puppets-episode-3-no-such-thing-as-an-ai-puppet-builder-yet   The Top 5 list so far:   Andrew: Number 2: Mass Effect 2 (2010) Number 3: Assassin's Creed 2 (2009) Number 4: Yakuza 0 (2017) Number 5: Fort Apocalypse (1982) Jamie: Number 2. Fallout: A Post Nuclear Role Playing Game (1997)  Number 3: Quake (1996) Number 4: Earthbound (1994) Number 5: Zork (1977) Kevin: Number 2: Neverwinter Nights (2002) Number 3: EverQuest (1999) Number 4: Assassin's Creed: Origins (2017) Number 5: Diablo 3 (2012) Music Credits: Opening Music/Stinger: Funk Babe by emiliomerone. Audiojungle Broadcast License. Gizmotown: kiddpark, Freesound.org (Creative Commons 0 License). Pixels and Tokens: Kagateni, Freesound.org (Creative Commons 0 License) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In today's episode we're joined by multi-disciplinary artist and writer Liz Ryerson. Liz brings her background in music and game design to discuss scenes from the Coens' movies in which characters drift through the wide world of their story, and in their wanderings—be they pastoral, tacky, gnarly, or urbane—make discoveries without and within. Outro Music: Liz Ryerson - Village Theme Support Liz on Patreon and Bandcamp! Coens covered: Inside Llewyn Davis; Barton Fink; O Brother, Where Art Thou?; No Country for Old Men Plus: Twin Peaks s3e8, No Direction Home, I'm Not There, Mazes and Monsters, Thief, Deus Ex, Zork, Hitman, Prey, Problem Attic, Half-Life If you want to join the study group please follow TTWS on social media, tell your friends about it, and leave a rating/review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.  ***You can also support us directly at https://ko-fi.com/tothewhitesea*** For all things TTWS visit tothewhitesea.me – and join the Discord!

Chris and special guest Celeste Roberts go in-depth with NoCode's Stories Untold (2017). Along the way, they manage to discuss Zork (1977), Cold War-era cyanide tooth capsules, and the Alien film franchise. For more from Celeste, please check out the Boss Rush Network, Another Zelda Podcast, and Read Only Magazine! Also, this episode was guest-edited by Carly Pryor! You can find more of her great work on Instagram and YouTube.

In this first episode of the podcast, Scott Rettberg is joined by his co-director and partner Jill Walker Rettberg. They talk about what has inspired them over the years to start this research Center of Excellence, the concept of "algorithmic narrativity," and some of the research that the Center will focus on including digital narratives in electronic literature, computer games, social media, computational narrative systems, AI, XR and more. Sign up for the newsletter coming soon. References University of Bergen. n. d. “Center for Digital Narrative.” https://www.uib.no/en/cdn.   Infocom. 1977. Zork. Personal Software. PDP-10 mainframe computer. https://www.pcjs.org/software/pcx86/game/infocom/zork1/.   Gillespie, W., Rettberg, S., Stratton, D., & Marquadt, F. 1999. The Unknown [Hypertext fiction]. Web. http://unknownhypertext.com/.   ELMCIP. n. d. “Electronic Literature Knowledge Base.” https://elmcip.net/.   Strachey, Christopher. 1952. M.U.C. Love Letter Generator. HTML.   ELMCIP. n. d. “Digital Arts and Culture 1998 Conference.” https://elmcip.net/event/digital-arts-and-culture-1998-conference.   Kittler, Friedrich, Dorothea von Mücke, and Philippe L. Similon. 1987. “Gramophone, Film, Typewriter.” October 41: 101–18. https://doi.org/10.2307/778332.  Jhave Johnston, David. 2019. ReRites. Anteism Books, Montreal. http://glia.ca/rerites/.   Wittig, Rob. 2022. Netprov: Networked Improvised Literature for the Classroom and Beyond. Amherst College Press. https://doi.org/10.3998/mpub.12387128.  University of Bergen. n. d. “Machine Vision.” https://www.uib.no/en/machinevision.  

Keep up with everything Operation: Puppet does on our Linktree! https://linktr.ee/OperationPuppet   Intro British and Canadian polite audiences? Jamie got catcalled Andrew isn't a cop. Or is he? Whales swimming in cheese Is the podcast going weekly? Stay tuned 10:06 The Puppet Pit Phase II adjusting Recent builds: Experimenting with removable arm rods, new designs and several commissions Join the Discord! https://discord.gg/USQdYP4CZc Shoutout Tom Stewart! https://www.thecreatureworksstudio.com Buy us a Ko-fi! https://ko-fi.com/operationpuppet   33:37 Gizmotown The Deck Nook: Kevin had an interesting and instructive adventure with his Deck! Andrew bought a Miyoo Mini+ Thanks to Indyskeep, there's a 3D printer in the house, the Sovol SV01 Pro! Check out Indyskeep YouTube!: https://www.youtube.com/@indyskeepproductions Freedom Mobile has rolled out 5G in major urban areas! AI journalists got fooled twice. Glorbo lives! 1:37:05 Pixels and Tokens Guess what's coming to Xbox? It's Final Fantasy 14! Ubisoft is going to delete your account! Well, maybe not… Diablo check in: Patchpocalypse, toxic subreddits and Season 1 thoughts Our Top 5 Games of All Time continues with Jamie's Number 2 - Fallout: A Post Nuclear Role Playing Game (1997) - https://youtu.be/geLiEiAiQJA The Top 5 list so far: Andrew: Number 2: Mass Effect 2 (2010) Number 3: Assassin's Creed 2 (2009) Number 4: Yakuza 0 (2017) Number 5: Fort Apocalypse (1982) Jamie: Number 2. Fallout: A Post Nuclear Role Playing Game (1997)  Number 3: Quake (1996) Number 4: Earthbound (1994) Number 5: Zork (1977)   Kevin: Number 3: EverQuest (1999) Number 4: Assassin's Creed: Origins (2017) Number 5: Diablo 3 (2012)   Music Credits: Opening Music/Stinger: Funk Babe by emiliomerone. Audiojungle Broadcast License. Gizmotown: kiddpark, Freesound.org (Creative Commons 0 License). Pixels and Tokens: Kagateni, Freesound.org (Creative Commons 0 License) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

50 Years of Text Games: From Oregon Trail to A.I. Dungeon is an extensively researched book chronicling the first half-century of interactive fiction: video games made from words.  Covering one text game released in each year from 1971 to 2020, in-depth chapters dive into classics like Zork, Trade Wars, and Hitchhiker's Guide; beloved fan games like Galatea and Photopia; wild experiments from Dwarf Fortress to Howling Dogs; and breakout hits like 80 Days, Fallen London, and Lifeline. Over 600 pages of coverage and dozens of original maps and flowcharts help explain the structure and design of each game included. Aaron A. Reed has been creating and researching interactive stories for twenty years, focusing on understanding the many ways authors and players can tell stories together. He holds a PhD in interactive storytelling, and is currently based in California freelancing as a character and narrative consultant for games. Rudolf Inderst is a professor of Game Design with a focus on Digital Game Studies at the IU International University of Applied Science, editor of “Game Studies Watchlist”, a weekly messenger newsletter about Game Culture and curator of @gamestudies at tiktok. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

Last looked at over 700 episodes ago, this is a light version of that classic text adventure game Zork and with a different mission. Enjoy those dark and dangerous caves

Back in my day, computer games didn't have fancy graphics or immersive sound. They just had plain old text, and we liked it! We look at the origins of the text-based adventure game and how these games are a creative challenge to make.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Did you actually believe me when I said that Phoenix was the last huge game of the year?! Introducing Zork aka the most popular text adventure series ever made! Join us as we dive into this huge game, as well as check out Skiing on the Atari 2600 and Destroyer by Cidelsa.Website -https://historyofvideogamespodcast.comTwitter - https://twitter.com/HistoryofVideo1Email - historyvgpodcast@gmail.comHosts - Ben & WesMusic - Arranged and recorded by BenCan you guess this week's transition music? The theme is 'Best of Ben'

A weird one this week. You have been warned

This week on the Mutineer Disaster Hour, we dig into the brief critical reviews of Dungeons & Dragons movies, Jordan talks about Toylanta 2023, and Josh shows us a video! Also we play Zork! Remember Zork? It's here! Zork! And there's a lot of other stuff in here too. I mean, come on, it's a Disaster Hour.   WATCH THIS VIDEO ON YOUTUBE   What the Heck is Jake Talking About?  Mickey Mutineers Subreddit  Jordan Ghastly's Channel    MERCHANDISE LINKS! TeePublic  Store Frontier  Redbubble 

Ambie and Crystal discuss a couple games they played recently, including El Grande and Marvel SNAP. Then, we stop talking about board games for a bit as we talk about our five favorite video games of all time! Announcements: 0:37 Recent Games: 2:04 Top 5 Video Games: 12:16 Outro: 36:26 Join our discord El Grande: 2:04 Marvel Snap: 7:37 Support us at https://ko-fi.com/boardgameblitz This episode was sponsored by Grey Fox Games. Use the code "BGBLITZ2023" to get 10% off your ENTIRE ORDER, including upgrades not available anywhere else! For the full show notes visit our site at http://www.boardgameblitz.com/posts/345

Welcome to Dev Game Club, where this week we continue our series on Plundered Hearts, the pirate romance text adventure, and also turning to a short bonus discussion about Twine games. We mostly discuss our takeaways before turning to the bonus discussion. Dev Game Club looks at classic video games and plays through them over several episodes, providing commentary. Podcast breakdown: 0:18 Takeaways 51:02 Break 51:12 Bonus Discussion Issues covered: text adventure length, an introductory adventure and the audience it sought, being unable to market, a diversion to Rogue Legacy 2, finding a parser bug, game pack-ins, losing a thing to the parser, a garter on a crocodile, waiting and responding to player choice, playtesting internally, not knowing to wait, inventory combination vs revisiting every location you've missed, failure-driven games, piecing clues together through trial and error, choosing your verbs carefully, whether there are multiple solutions, the hostility of a trial-and-error design, subverting your genre through mechanics, Tim's life as a series of flow charts, a structure still used today, flow charts for puzzle steps, working back from a problem to the solution, responding to your players, using good writing to provide a rich experience, interesting work coming from diverse sources, being playful with text, Twine as an environment, what you can do with good writing and simple tools, text effects, the approachability of the tools, personal games, an experimental game and interpretation, the structure of "howling dogs," simulation aspects, commentary on games, the default response and the "that's interesting," poetic/evocative/allusive tone, being in a browser and the affordances, a commentary on the games industry, the anxiety-provoking games, feeling seen, being exactly spot-on, a learning tool, the value of constraints. Games, people, and influences mentioned or discussed: Dark Souls, Zork, Infocom, Byte, Nibble, EGM, Nintendo Power, Rogue Legacy 2, Halo, LucasArts, Day of the Tentacle, Emily Short, Counterfeit Monkey, Tim Schafer, Dave Grossman, Dungeons & Dragons, MYST, Space Quest, King's Quest, Reed Knight, Ron Gilbert, Peter Pan, Errol Flynn, Geena Davis, Cutthroat Island, Matthew Modine, Activision, A Series of Unfortunate Events, Chris Klimas, Hypercard, howling dogs, Porpentine, The Writer Will Do Something, Matthew Seiji Burns, Tom Bissell, Game Developer magazine, Magical Wasteland, IF Comp, Andrew Plotkin, Meg Jayanth, Richard Hofmeier, Papers Please, Hot Pockets, Mountain Dew, Warhammer, Frog Fractions, Universal Paperclips, Frank Lantz, HP Lovecraft, Melville, Shakespeare, Mark Laidlaw, Eliza, Zachtronics, Kirk Hamilton, Aaron Evers, Mark Garcia.  Errors! It was not Papers, Please (which is also excellent and by Lucas Pope), but Cart Life that was by Richard Hofmeier Links: When You Say One Thing and Mean Your Motherboard Next time: ...?! Twitch: brettdouville or timlongojr, instagram:timlongojr, Twitter: @timlongojr and @devgameclub DevGameClub@gmail.com

Welcome to Dev Game Club, where this week we continue our mini theme of the flexibility of text. We examine the Infocom era by playing a late title, Plundered Hearts. We discuss some of the rougher aspects of the game and the mechanics of text adventures, including the facilities of the language and some of its modern descendants. Dev Game Club looks at classic video games and plays through them over several episodes, providing commentary. Sections played: Tim (all), Brett (the first section) Issues covered: setting the game in its time, graphic adventures in the time, the death of Infocom, the variety of Infocom's game, Tim pulling his hair out, the cinematic nature of the game, some digressions on Deadline, extending the play through difficulty, saving the game, puzzles and wordplay, exploring the parser, accommodating the player, playing with tropes, Tim misses the boat, a bit of description of the parser and virtual machine, rooms and inventory, fore and aft vs north and south, abstraction and flexibility, restrictions, great graphics via visualization, the perfect run and the perfect score, the modern text adventure market, trigger warning for adult themes, a female protagonist, failure states, "a fate worse than death," a commentary about the dangers for women in the world, a game that she wanted to play, the context of the medium and the inherent danger of the world, having an impactful victory, Vermin's SL1 of Dark Souls, Pippin Barr and experimental games, Break Out and performance art, from Rogue to Diablo. Games, people, and influences mentioned or discussed: Rogue, Calamity Nolan, Reed Knight, TIE Fighter, Aaron Reed, Maniac Mansion, Sierra Online, Space Quest 2, Police Quest, Leisure Suit Larry, Nintendo/NES, Punch-Out, Final Fantasy, Sid Meier's Pirates!, Metroid, Legend of Zelda, Day of the Tentacle, Cornerstone, Zork, Deadline, Deathloop, The Lurking Horror, Ballyhoo, Moonmist, Leather Goddesses of Phobos, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Activision, Sea of Thieves, Amy Briggs, Agatha Christie, Murder She Wrote, Sleep No More, Colossal Cave Adventure, Apple ][, Volkswagon, Tim Schafer, Dave Grossman, Dark Souls, Tomb Raider, Choose Your Own Adventure, Fighting Fantasy, Sir Ian Livingstone, Ink/Inkle, Around the World in 80 Days, Sorcery (series), Heaven's Vault, I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream, Suspended, Brian Moriarty, A Mind Forever Voyaging, Dark Souls, Emily Short, Elsinore, Pirates of the Caribbean, verminthewepper, Pippin Barr, David Wolinsky, Marina Abramovich, The Artist Is Present, Kill.Screen, GameThing, Breakout, don't die, Father Beast, Diablo, Ragnarok Valhalla, Glenn Wichman, The Eggplant Show, Dave Brevik, Moria, Nethack, Oliver Uv, Brogue, Caves of Qud, Cogmind, Rogue Legacy 2, Mark Garcia, Kirk Hamilton, Aaron Evers. Next time: A bit of a bonus and takeaways! Errata: It's a babelfish, I can't believe I couldn't remember that Brett confused Astrologaster with Heaven's Vault (he was referring to the latter) Links: Interactive Fiction Database GameThing podcast! Pippin Barr's site Don't Die by David Wolinsky Twitch: brettdouville or timlongojr, instagram:timlongojr, Twitter: @timlongojr and @devgameclub DevGameClub@gmail.com

In this week's episode, the fellas talk names: middle names, Gary's kids names, Booray's radio names... you get the picture. In photography news, Getty Images announced lawsuit against Stable Diffusion, the Sony 20-70mm f/4 G lens, Zork video game gets a glow up, NVIDIA'S software can digitally fake eye contact, Apple M2 Pro & M2 Max next generation computer chips, and PiXimperfect's AI & Photoshop Youtube video.Save 50% on your first year with 17 Hats using the code "photobomb" at checkout just go to www.17hats.comCheck out Gary's YouTube channel HERE.Check out Booray's YouTube channel HERE.Join our Facebook Group, the Bombardiers Lounge

Welcome to Dev Game Club, where this week we begin a new series on 1980's seminal and genre-naming title, Rogue. We set the game in time and talk about what constitutes the genre before diving into some particulars. Dev Game Club looks at classic video games and plays through them over several episodes, providing commentary. Sections played: A few runs Issues covered: buying the game in a box, being disappointed in the ASCII, being turned off by procedural games, the differences in later games, the lore of the game, playing on a mainframe, the roots of so many games in text format, a top 50 achievement in games, the elements of the Rogue-like, procedural generation, inventory, randomized items, permadeath, getting over the hurdles in types of games, a chain reaction of bad things, clicking with a specific experience, simulating the rogue-like, a long shadow, playing to get a feel, being terrified of letters, trying things at random, a voyage of discovery, knowledge, renaming everything, consistent descriptions, thinking about strategy, the cumbersome bow mechanics, more depth than expected, the possibilities of emergence, anecdote factory, "wait, there are bear traps?" Games, people, and influences mentioned or discussed: Adventure, Atari 2600, Colossal Cave Adventure, Dungeons & Dragons, Egghead Software, Moria, Nethack, Jamie Fristrom, ADOM, Angband, Zork, Infocom, Mystery House, On-Line Systems, Sierra Online, Ken and Roberta Williams, Hunt the Wumpus, Star Trek, Pac-Man, Battlezone, Missile Command, Space Invaders, Activision, Taito, LucasArts, Space Quest/King's Quest, Michael Toy, Glenn Wichman, Ken Arnold, DARPANET, World of Warcraft, Mario (series), Dark Souls, Rogue Legacy, Epyx, Spelunky, Oblivion, Morrowind, PSP/Vita, Andy Nealen, Diablo, Calamity Nolan, Dead Cells, Eggplant (podcast), mysterydip, Clint Hocking, Patrick Redding, Mark Garcia, Artimage, LostLevels, Kirk Hamilton, Aaron Evers.  Next time: Get that Amulet of Yendor! Twitch: brettdouville or timlongojr, instagram:timlongojr, Twitter: @timlongojr and @devgameclub Discord: https://t.co/YVZOe7ZygI DevGameClub@gmail.com

Remember that time we stormed Area 51 and Conspiracy Bot somehow got us involved in a Reptilian scheme to take over the world? Or that time we went to the Hollow Earth and stole a bunch of crap while also ending up in a ZORK world? Well, all good stories come to an end and that end is this week. Just who is pulling the strings? Will we sell that crap we stole? Why is British announcer guy so British??? All that and the return of Goforth (and Pecker) this week in Adventure 3! Written by Michael Paul Gonzalez (MichaelPaulGonzalez.com / @monkeywright)In association with Radio Lost Angeles and ForthHand ProductionsProduced by Michael Paul GonzalezStarring:Brent Hand – HimselfJohn Goforth – HimselfLisa Hand - Herself Joe Peck - HimselfConspiracy Bot – Unfortunately, HimselfKyle – Annoyingly HimselfAleksandra Bieńkowska – DeckerTim Longhurst – British Announcer GuyDavid Flora - Various legally-distinct and permissible under parody laws space-themed pop culture characters who shall not be namedCebastian Tekin - Imperial Space SoldierKevin Crispin - HimselfDr. Sarah Penn - Child VoicesMichael Paul Gonzalez - Himself Music and sound effects sourced from creative commons and royalty free music archives including: Miguel Johnson, Music4Video, A Shamaluev Music, Filmstro, and Tabletop Audio.Email us your favorite WEIRD news stories:weird@hysteria51.comSupport the ShowGet exclusive content & perks as well as an ad and sponsor free experience at https://www.patreon.com/Hysteria51 from just $1See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Almost time! But we can't leave you hanging without revisiting Adventure 2! Dive back in to the sequel, have a laugh, and prepare for Adventure 3! Original DescriptionRemember that time we stormed Area 51 and Conspiracy Bot somehow got us involved in a Reptilian scheme to take over the world? (episode 155 for those of you playing at home) This is like that…only different…with more Hollow Earth…and Kyle…and Zork? ¯_(ツ)_/¯ You better just listen for yourself. Written by Michael Paul Gonzalez (MichaelPaulGonzalez.com / @monkeywright)In association with Radio Lost Angeles and ForthHand ProductionsProduced by Michael Paul Gonzalez and Brent HandStarring:Brent Hand – HimselfJohn Goforth – HimselfLisa Hand - HerselfConspiracy Bot – Unfortunately, HimselfKyle – Annoyingly HimselfAleksandra Bieńkowska – DeckerTim Longhurst – British Announcer GuyMichael Paul Gonzalez - HimselfEvil John Goforth - Not HimselfMusic:Music provided by No Copyright Music: https://www.youtube.com/c/royaltyfreezoneMusic used: Dragon War by Makai Symphony https://soundcloud.com/makai-symphony/dragon-warorchestral-battle-musicLicensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/Sound Effects:Sound Effects obtained via Licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/Hysteria51See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In the first of our epic 2 part interview, we go deep inside the world of Infocom with Mike Dornbrook.  Infocom were one of the earliest video games companies, starting on university mainframes, their text adventures like Zork and Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy soon became cult classics on home micros. The Space Bar 25th anniversary re-release: https://www.zoom-platform.com/product/the-space-bar Please visit our amazing sponsors and help to support the show: Bitmap Books https://www.bitmapbooks.com/ We need your help to ensure the future of the podcast, if you'd like to help us with running costs, equipment and hosting, please consider supporting us on Patreon: https://theretrohour.com/support/ https://www.patreon.com/retrohour Get your Retro Hour merchandise: https://bit.ly/33OWBKd Join our Discord channel: https://discord.gg/GQw8qp8 Website: http://theretrohour.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/theretrohour/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/retrohouruk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/retrohouruk/ Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/theretrohour Upcoming events: Notts VGA Festival - https://www.nottsvge.com/ - 17th & 18th December 2022 Show notes: Spectrum Quake: https://bit.ly/3DWCXQR Every US PS2 manual scanned: https://bit.ly/3Wxh6XC Oregon Trail comes to Switch: https://bit.ly/3UqZlra The Samurai collection: https://bit.ly/3UH1Be3 C64 accordian: https://bit.ly/3UsjRYu

We are going back to the past again this week for our bonus episode. It's Adventure time again as we revisit Audio Adventure 2 as we gear up for Adventure 3 which is right around the corner!! Original Description Remember that time we stormed Area 51 and Conspiracy Bot somehow got us involved in a Reptilian scheme to take over the world? (episode 155 for those of you playing at home) This is like that…only different…with more Hollow Earth…and Kyle…and Zork? ¯_(ツ)_/¯ You better just listen for yourself. Written by Michael Paul Gonzalez (MichaelPaulGonzalez.com / @monkeywright) In association with Radio Lost Angeles and ForthHand Productions Produced by Michael Paul Gonzalez and Brent Hand Starring: Brent Hand – Himself John Goforth – Himself Lisa Hand - Herself Conspiracy Bot – Unfortunately, Himself Kyle – Annoyingly Himself Aleksandra Bieńkowska – Decker Tim Longhurst – British Announcer Guy Michael Paul Gonzalez - Himself Evil John Goforth - Not Himself Music: Music provided by No Copyright Music: https://www.youtube.com/c/royaltyfreezone Music used:  Dragon War by Makai Symphony  https://soundcloud.com/makai-symphony/dragon-warorchestral-battle-music Licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0  https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ Sound Effects: Sound Effects obtained via Licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ Email us your favorite WEIRD news stories: weird@hysteria51.com Support the Show Get exclusive content & perks as well as an ad and sponsor free experience at https://www.patreon.com/Hysteria51 from just $1 Join Our Discord Server https://discord.gg/WuPKAZ6cpg Shop Be the Best Dressed at your Cult Meeting! https://www.teepublic.com/stores/hysteria-51?ref_id=4106 See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.