Podcast appearances and mentions of will yes

Produced by Joseph Cottrell, Jeffrey Crecelius and Ken Fuller Geoff Bailie and some other bloke It was lovely to welcome back onto the YMP our friend and patron, Geoff Bailie this week. Mark and I spoke to him about the recent news that Yes will be on tour with Deep Purple in the US and Canada this Summer. What do you think of that idea? Well, self-confessed Deep Purple fan Geoff shares some thoughts with us and we discuss pretty much every aspect of the forthcoming tour, as you would expect. Do leave your own thoughts on the show notes for this week. Why are Yes touring with Deep Purple? Is this a co-headlining tour or are Yes the support act? Will Yes always play first? Let us know if you agree with us! https://deeppurple.com/pages/tours https://www.yesworld.com/live/ Check out the progress on my other podcast - https://anthem52.com/ Yes - The Tormato Story Available now! TormatoBook.com YMP Patrons: Producers: Joseph Cottrell Ken Fuller Jeffrey Crecelius Patrons: Jim Morrison Jon Pickles Declan Logue Gary Betts Aaron SteelmanMichael Handerhan Barry Gorsky Steve Perry Doug Curran Martin Kjellberg Todd Dudley Rachel Hadaway Lind  Paul Hailes Craig Estenes Mark James Lang Steve Rode David Bob Martilotta John Holden Stephen LambeDem Fred Barringer Scott Colombo Chris Bandini David Heyden John Thomson Mark Baggs John Cowan John Parry Dave Owen Simon Barrow Steve Scott Terence Sadler Steve Dill Robert Nasir  Fergus Cubbage William Hayes Geoff Bailie Steven Roehr Lobate Scarp Geoffrey Mason David Watkinson Tim Stannard Robert VandiverBrian Sullivan David Pannell Jamie McQuinnMiguel Falcão Paul Tomei Michael O'ConnorBrian HarrisHogne Bø PettersenGuy DeRome Become a Patron! Our Facebook YMP Discussion Group is open to anyone to join. One of the advantages of the new format is that all members of the group have the same ability to post content, so it's a bit more egalitarian, or somesuch. Please do search for the group and join in. https://www.facebook.com/groups/3216603008606331/ Please follow/subscribe! If you are still listening to the podcast on the website, please consider subscribing so you don't risk missing anything: Theme music The music I use is the last movement of Stravinsky's Firebird Suite. This has been used as introduction music at many Yes concerts. My theme music is not take from a live concert – I put it together from: archive.org

Hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido chat with Sanghmitra Bhardwaj, CEO and Founder of Insusty. Sanghmitra shares her journey from a small village in the foothills of the Himalayas to becoming a founder in France, driven by firsthand experiences with climate disasters and a passion for sustainable living. Insusty, a sustainability loyalty program, is a platform incentivizing individuals to adopt climate-positive actions through rewards, thereby fostering a community motivated towards environmental stewardship. The show digs into the mechanics and vision of Insusty, highlighting how the platform rewards eco-friendly actions like volunteering and donating, rather than purchases. This approach aims to bridge the gap between the desire for sustainable living and the practical challenges individuals face, such as the perceived high costs of sustainable products. Sanghmitra reveals the evolution of Insusty, including strategic pivots towards niche markets within the circular economy and the importance of transparency and impact measurement in building trust with consumers. Towards the episode's conclusion, the conversation shifts to broader implications of sustainability in technology and business. Sanghmitra expresses curiosity about future expansions of Insusty, particularly in tracking and rewarding individual daily eco-actions more effectively. She also touches upon the challenges and triumphs of being a solo female founder in the tech and sustainability sectors, underscoring the significance of community, perseverance, and innovation in driving change. Insusty (https://www.insusty.info/) Follow Insusty on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/insusty/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/theinsusty/), or X (https://twitter.com/the_insusty). Follow Sanghmitra Bhardwaj on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sanghmitra-bhardwaj-515428236/) or X (https://twitter.com/sustainwithsan). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: WILL:  This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. With me today is Sanghmitra Bhardwaj, CEO and Founder of Insusty, a sustainability loyalty program for individuals. Sanghmitra, thank you for joining us. SANGHMITRA: Thank you so much for having me here. I'm super excited for the podcast and to discuss various topics that we are about to. And I'm sure that it's going to be a learning experience, not just for the audience, but also for me. So, thank you for this opportunity. VICTORIA: Why don't we just start off getting to know you a little bit? Tell us something exciting going on in your life, maybe outside of work. SANGHMITRA: Okay, so, well, recently, I joined a pole dancing class. I wanted to challenge myself and see if I have the core strength that I need to be strong. And I also feel that it's something that I always wanted to do to come out of my comfort zone. So, it's been fun so far. VICTORIA: I tried that, and I thought that I would naturally be good at it because I'm a rock climber. And so, I thought I'd have all the right muscle groups, but the coordination and [laughs], like, expression of it is still challenging if you've never done it before. SANGHMITRA: Yeah, definitely. And I think there are some techniques and if you don't do it right, like, you will not get it at all, those poses and, like, how you climb the pole and everything. So, I completely relate to your experience here. VICTORIA: I want to do more dance, actually, because the mind-body connection and getting into that feeling of flow is really interesting for me. And I think it's like expressing through your body, which 80% of communication is non-verbal, which is really interesting. SANGHMITRA: Yeah, that's true. Just to add to it, I wanted to also share with you that I used to do modeling back in India, and I really love expressing myself with my body. And it's been super interesting to see that. And also, when I have conversations with other people, these are the things that I observe a lot. Is it the same for you? Do you also observe other people's body language when they are talking to you and probably change some topics that you are trying to discuss? VICTORIA: Yeah, absolutely. You can tell if people are listening to what you're saying. They, like, lean in a little bit, or if they're not really wanting to relate to what you're saying, they're, like, crossing their arms in front of you. So, as someone who works in business development, I definitely pay a lot of attention [laughs] to all that stuff. But I'm curious, how did you go from being a model in India to founder and CEO where you are today? SANGHMITRA: That's something that I would love to talk about, and also, it has to do from where I come from. So, I come from a very small village in the foothills of the Himalayas. There, I witnessed climate disasters firsthand. In 2013, there were a lot of cloudbursts happening in those areas. An entire village next to my village disappeared completely without a trace. And those were some moments in my life where I really felt like we live in a world where you can be far from Europe...for example, currently, I live in France, and here, when heat wave happens, we all suffer and people talk about it. But I have seen, like, the adverse effect of what it can lead to. So, there was a part of me that always wanted to do something in terms of the impact that I create, like, with my work. So, I started doing modeling, which was something for myself as well to gain some confidence. At the same time, I worked with sustainable brands in India. I modeled for them, and then I discovered their work. I got inspired by it, and I realized that it's something that interests me a lot, and I wanted to pursue my studies in it to know more about it. So, that's when I came to France to pursue my master's in sustainable finance to discover more about this field and to see where I belong. And finally, I founded Insusty, where I could see that I could bring my inspiration from the sustainable brands that I worked with. Whether it's from the fashion or, the food industry, or the travel industry, I could see the inspiration coming from there. At the same time, I could see how we need to create mass adoption through incentivizing climate action, which was something that I explored during my studies. And I kind of went with Insusty, and that was the beginning of my founder journey. WILL: I have a question about the way you grew up, and you're saying in a village. Can you expound a little bit on that? Because you said, climate change wiped out an entire village. And so, when I saw that in the email, I was like, I don't think I've ever had a chance to actually talk to someone that lived in a village. I grew up in the United States. So, like, help paint that picture. When you say you grew up in a village, what do you mean by that? What was it like growing up in a village, and also, what do you mean by the next village got entirely wiped out? SANGHMITRA: Yeah. Living in a village it's like being a part of a tiny, well-knitted community, and it's, like, everyone knows everyone. And sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad because when people gossip, of course, it spreads like a wildfire. As well as when you need support and when you need help, this community is always there, too. So, the part of belonging to such a community and to kind of engage with people is something that I really enjoy about coming from a small village. And that's something that I oftentimes search in France, where I can be a part of such communities as well, where people inspire each other. For example, currently, I'm a part of a wonderful community of women of color founders living in Europe. It's called Founderland. And it's thanks to Founderland that I found you then I could join this podcast. So, when it comes to the small village, this is what I really really love about it is the small knitted community we have. When I say that the entire village next to my village disappeared, I mean that when there was the cloudburst in the mountain, the soil and everything drowned the entire village. So, there was a school, and we used to hear a story about the school, where the kids were told by the teachers to run because there is a cloudburst, and "We are about to die if we stay in this place." And as a student, as a kid, what do you think first? You think about packing your bags instead of running. So, the kids ended up packing their bags before they could run, and by that time, it was too late. So, this is just one of the heartbreaking stories that I'm sharing with you right now, but it had been something that really left a mark in my life. VICTORIA: I really appreciate you sharing that story because when I talk to people about climate change, I think it's really easy to get this nihilistic attitude about, well, climate change is going to kill us all in 20 years. So, why bother doing anything about it? And what I usually answer back is that climate change is already killing people. And then, it's happening in your own neighborhood, even, like, you know, I live here in San Diego, and it's always between, like, 60 and 80 degrees every single day [chuckles], but our beaches are collapsing. There are neighborhoods that are more impacted by pollution than others and are experiencing environmental impacts from that and their health, and everything like that. So, I'm curious how it all comes together with what you're doing with Insusty and how you're inspiring people to take action towards sustainability in the here and now. SANGHMITRA: Actually, I have a question for you and Will. I wanted to understand, for example, if you purchase something in terms of, for example, it's related to fashion, or it's related to food products, what is the criteria that's most important to you? And maybe probably you can tell me, like, the top three criteria that are most important for you when you buy something. And then, I would love to share how Insusty can help you buy better. VICTORIA: When I'm looking to buy things, I look for, like, price. I want it to be reasonable, but I also don't want it to be so cheap that it means it's a really poor quality. So, I want to find that balance between, like, quality and price. And I do also care about sustainability, and, like, what is the background of the company that I'm buying it from? You know, what's their reputation? What's their, like, practices? Like one example is, like, the rugs for your house. So, I like to buy rugs that are made from sustainable fabrics and dyes and that I can wash them because I have a dog. And so, that's kind of, like, what I think through when I buy things. But it's not always easy, especially with clothing, because it seems like anyone who makes clothing, there's just always this risk of it being sourced at some part in the manufacturing pipeline having to do with either child labor or really terrible sustainability practices. WILL: Yeah. I would say, for me, early on, especially when I was growing up, we didn't have a lot of money, so it was just whatever is the cheapest, whatever we could afford at that moment. It wasn't really looking into the quality, or sustainability, or any of those items. Some of the stuff I look back on that I ate often, I'm like, whoa, man, that was not the best thing. But it was the cheapest, and it was what we ate and things like that. So, now that I'm older, my wife has been talking to me about some of that stuff, and it's like, oh, I had no idea, because of the environment I grew up in, that, like, that's even affecting me. And that was kind of why I asked you about the village thing is because I feel like we can get in a bubble sometimes and not even be aware of what's happening to other people. And I think, Victoria, you said something about people not understanding climate change. It's kind of tough at times to talk about climate change when you live in...where I'm at in Florida, it's like, okay, it gets hot, and then it gets cold. And yeah, we have a hurricane every now and then, but whenever you told the story about the village, it's like, oh, wow, like, that's a different game. That's a different level. I didn't even know about that. So, I think that's kind of my journey now is I am starting to understand sustainability. I think a lot of times I still have that I grew up with nothing mindset and want to get the cheapest thing because sometimes buying sustainability is super expensive. So, that's why I'm glad that I'm talking to you, so maybe I can learn some of those things. So yeah, that's kind of been my journey with it. SANGHMITRA: That's really wonderful to get your insights because now I can tell you confidently what we do. Basically, when I talk to people, it was generally the same thing that I asked them, "What's the most important thing when you buy, like, the top three most important things?" Sustainability was definitely one of them, but cost was always there. Regardless of the background that they are from, cost was something that they all thought about. So, what we do at Insusty is that we incentivize individuals to do something good for the planet. It can be, for example, you want to volunteer at an NGO next to your place. You want to get rewarded. So, what we do is we offer you loyalty points that help you to buy from sustainable brands. So, you try these products because, oftentimes, as Will also mentioned, there is a perception, and it's also a reality, that sustainable products tend to be more expensive. So, we try to deal with that by offering a loyalty program that incentivizes climate action. And in terms of the sustainable brands, they get new customer base. They get to interact with these customers. They get to see their product and sites. What is something that the customers really like? What is something that can be improved? How can they improve in terms of their own sustainability and their impact? For example, their supply chain operations and so on. So, it's something that we provide them and help them also with insights as well as new customer base. We try to support them with that. At the same time, on an individual level, we help with the cost factor, which is one of the most important things. When we want people to change, when we want people to adopt sustainable lifestyle, we kind of need to incentivize that so that mass adoption can be possible. VICTORIA: So, I'm imagining, like, I want to know a new brand that I want to buy clothes from, like essential clothes. I could go into the app and, like, find companies that produce the thing that I want, and then I could get points and rewards for buying consistently from that brand. SANGHMITRA: So, we are not like an actual loyalty program. So, you only receive points when you do something good for the planet. You don't receive points when you purchase from brands. This is a loyalty program where we give you points when you do something good for the planet, for example, donations. For NGOs, we have volunteer programs that individuals can participate in and receive loyalty points. But in the future, we are ambitious, and we want to go far. And we think that each and every activity of an individual can be tracked in terms of sustainability, how they are segregating their waste at home, how they're managing that, and so on, and give them points for each of their eco actions. VICTORIA: Awesome. Yeah. Okay. I love that. Yeah. So, what kind of things would earn me points, like, in my home ownership here? SANGHMITRA: If you volunteer with an NGO nearby or if you would like to participate in an event, for example, if you want to donate clothes, all these eco actions can give you loyalty points for the moment. And in the future, we want to also track the actions that you do at home. You save electricity, for example. You want to walk to the office instead of taking a cab, and all these activities, so that we can kind of make the experience also for the user a bit more like a game so that they enjoy doing it at the same time they receive rewards. And they can make purchases as well with the sustainable brands on our platform. VICTORIA: I like that because I've been talking with my partner about how do we live more sustainably, or how do we, like, reduce our consumption or give back. And I think if it was gamified and we got points for it, it's more motivating because then you also see that other people are doing it as well. And so, you're part of a community that's all trying to take the same action. And that will have a bigger impact than just one individual, right? SANGHMITRA: Yes, definitely. And we do have that feature on our platform where you could see near your area who donated and who is working in a particular NGO, so based on the fact that if the individual is comfortable in sharing that. Most of the time, when someone does something good for the planet, they would love to show it to the rest of the world. So, we have seen that people love to share their experiences and their badges, saying that, okay, they donated, for example, five euros to this NGO, and so on. So, they really love that. And it feels also really good to see this community and to get inspired by it. Mid-Roll Ad: When starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment but that you don't have all year to do extended research. In just a few weeks, thoughtbot's Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We'll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts. Maximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint. WILL: I think it's going to take all of us doing something to help with climate change and to make a difference. So, I like how you're incentivizing. You're making a difference. You say you get reward points. So, once I do an item or an action and I get reward points, what does that look like on the backend of it? SANGHMITRA: For the individuals they have a dashboard to track their actions. They have a dashboard to also track what they are purchasing. So, if they're purchasing food or they're purchasing more items related to fashion, they can also check that. They can check the total number of points that they have received so far, where they have used it, and so on. And at the backend, for us, we see it as the total number of transactions that are taking place, so, for example, how the loyalty point is being used. So, we have APIs that are in place between our platform and the platforms of other sustainable brands in our network. So, in our backend, we can see the transactions; for example, an individual used 100 points to get 10% off from one of the sustainable brands on our platform. And in terms of the sustainable brand side, even they have their own dashboard. They can also track how many individuals are using their points on their platform, and so on. So, they also have access to their own analytics dashboard. And through the same application, they can also provide us the payments through subscription and transaction fees. VICTORIA: Yeah, that's really interesting. And so, I understand that you've been in the journey for a little while now. And I'm curious: if you go back to when you first got started, what was surprising to you in the discovery phase and maybe caused you to pivot and change strategy? SANGHMITRA: So, one thing that I pivoted with was the type of brands that we wanted to onboard. Before, we had a very open approach; for example, we want brands that are sustainable, or if they are upcycling, or if they have, like, a particular social impact attached to it or an environmental impact attached to it. So, we were focusing on having the horizons a bit like the aspects of choosing a sustainable brand to be a partner. It was a bit broader for us. But when we talked with the people, they wanted a niche. For example, they wanted upcycle products. They wanted more brands in the circular economy domain. And that's when we realized that we need to have a niche. So, we focus on the brands that are more linked towards circular economy that are promoting the values of recycling, upcycling, and reusing the products. So, that was when we pivoted with the idea that we should not be open to all sustainable brands. However, we need to be really accurate with our approach. We need to focus on a particular niche. At the same time, we need to also make sure that we measure their impact and report it to our customers to ensure transparency on our platform. So, that became a priority more than having more and more brands on our platform. WILL: Yeah, I really...that was actually one of my questions I was going to ask you because I like how you are vetting them because I've, especially here in the States, I've seen, like, companies, like, slap 'non-GMO' or 'gluten-free.' And it's like, well, it doesn't even have wheat in it, so, like, yeah, it's gluten-free. So, it's like, it's more of a marketing thing than actually, like, helping out. So, I'm glad you're vetting that. How has that process going for you? SANGHMITRA: It's actually going really well, and we have established a five-step onboarding process. And in the first two steps, we also focus on measuring their impact. We have a self-evaluation form. We also check if they have some existing certificates. We also make sure that we have enough data about their supply chain and how they are working. And these are some of the information that we also share with our consumers, the one who would be interested to buy products from these brands, to make sure that we are transparent in our approach. There's also one more thing that we do. It's the quarterly reporting. So, every three months, we also report the individuals who are buying from sustainable brands on our platform that, okay, this brand did better this quarter because they implemented a process that, for example, is reducing a certain amount of emissions from their supply chain, or any other departments. So, these are some of the information that we also share with the individuals. VICTORIA: And what does success look like now versus six months from now or five years from now? SANGHMITRA: For the moment, success would look like for me to have more connections, more people who support our project and our initiative, and the more people joining us. In terms of the next six months, I think it would be linked to fundraising. But I wouldn't go so far at the moment because, for me, I take one day at a time. And this is something that has been super helpful for me to streamline my tasks. So, I take one day at a time, and it's working really well for me. WILL: What are some of your upcoming hurdles that you see? SANGHMITRA: When I talk about hurdles, I often see it in two parts, one being the internal hurdles and the other one being external. So, in terms of the internal hurdles, it can be something like I'm putting myself in a box that, okay, I'm a single woman founder. How can I do something good? And just doubting myself and things like that. These are some of the internal hurdles that I'm working on every day [chuckles]. I'm also talking to executive coaches to get their advice on how I can improve myself as well to overcome these internal hurdles. However, in terms of the external hurdles, these are some things that are not in my control, but I try my best to make the most of it. Currently, in terms of the external hurdles, I would say that I live in a country where I used to not even speak the language. So, initially, the hurdle that I experienced was mostly the cultural hurdle. But now it's more related to the fact that I am a single female founder, and there are perceptions around it that you need to have a co-founder. And there are a lot of different noises everywhere that doesn't allow you to grow. VICTORIA: And you're not just a founder, but you're also an author. And I wanted to ask you a little bit about your book, the Sustainability Pendulum. Can you share a little bit about what it is and why you wrote it? SANGHMITRA: So, Sustainability Pendulum is the book that I wrote last year, and I always wanted to write it. And last year, I put myself to work, and I was like, at least every day, I'm going to try and write one page, and probably by the end of the year, I can finish the book [chuckles], and that's what I did. I had to be super consistent. But I came up with Sustainability Pendulum, and it's about the stories from the past and the sustainable approaches that we had in the past, how we used to...in different religions, we have some stories written in the scriptures related to sustainable practices. And oftentimes, when we talk about sustainability today, we talk about the future. We talk about implementing different technologies and, doing a lot of innovations, and so on. However, we don't look into the past and see how efficiently things were handled when it came to sustainability in the past. And these are some of the stories from the past, from different religions, and how it transcends to today's sustainability issues and solutions. So, that's what the book is about. And why it's called the pendulum, it's because how the pendulum moves. I think it's obvious [laughs], so the pendulum's to and fro motion. It goes to the past, and it goes to the future. So, that was the whole concept behind the sustainability pendulum. WILL: That's amazing that you wrote a book, much, much respect on that. I am not an author, so...And I also know because my wife she's been talking about writing a book and the different challenges with that. So, kudos on writing a book. Would you write another one? SANGHMITRA: Actually, I would love to. I'm just looking for something that equally inspires me how it did for the last one. But I think once you come out of that space and you're consistent with writing the book or consistently working to achieve something, I think eventually it comes to you. So, I don't know what are the challenges that your wife mentions that she faced in writing the book. WILL: Like, having enough to write about, like you said, just sitting down each day writing a book. And I think publishing a book is tough. I know we've come a long ways, like, you can self-publish now instead of going through publishing companies, and just those different avenues of how many steps it takes. It's not just writing a book, sitting down and writing a book, and sharing with everyone. It's multiple steps that you have to go through. SANGHMITRA: Definitely. I couldn't agree more with you on this one. Just to add to it, how I managed to do this was also because I structured the book earlier. And in order to also publish it, I realized that I don't want to wait. And I self-published the book as soon as I found out that, okay, this is perfect, and it's ready. I need to just move forward with it. What helped me as well was the way I structured the book earlier. And then, I was like, okay, every day, this is what I'm going to work on. And it kind of helped me to get to the end of it. WILL: That's awesome. I like how you had forethought and how it made it easier for you to come up with ideas and write it. So, that's awesome. SANGHMITRA: I wish the best to your wife as well for her book. And I hope that once it's ready, you will let me know about it. WILL: Yes, I definitely will. You're talking about being a woman founder who is single. I don't want to assume. So, why is it tough for you to be a woman founder who's single? SANGHMITRA: When I say single female founder, it means that I don't have a co-founder. It's not, like, my relationship status but just [laughs] the fact that... WILL: Yes. Yes. [laughter] SANGHMITRA: Just that I am a single founder, like, then I don't have a co-founder, which oftentimes poses as a risk, especially when you talk to an investor. This is what I feel based on my experience. But I think the times are changing, and I feel that the more the project is growing, the better it is getting in terms of the people who are interested as well to be a part of Insusty as an investor or as a partner. Things have become better now than they were a few years ago. So, I can see the change. But, initially, I did used to feel low about it that, okay, I'm a single female founder, and oftentimes, it was considered as a challenge. But if you take my perspective, I think, for me personally, it possibly was also one of my biggest strengths because I could be that one person going to the meetings, and I felt that people were more open to share things. They did not feel threatened by me. And that was something that really helped me to also form connections with people. VICTORIA: I love how you connect having a small community in your village where you grew up to creating a community around yourself as a founder and having a village that supports you, and you feel comfortable around the community as well, and as part of that community. If you could go back in time and give yourself some advice when you were first getting started with Insusty, what advice would you give yourself? SANGHMITRA: Slow is good. When I say that, I mean that every time we talk about different startups and different companies, and it's always about how rapidly the startup is growing, how exponentially they are growing, and so on. But I feel that in terms of when you really want to create an impact, and you are in the green tech space as well, being slow and getting somewhere is better than going fast and then having a burnout. So, one of the things that I would tell myself when I just started would be slow is good. WILL: Even with coding and a lot of things in life, I feel like that's really good advice: slow is good. Slow down––enjoy the moment. So, I like that advice. VICTORIA: I was going to say, it sounds like a more sustainable pace for yourself also [laughs]. SANGHMITRA: Exactly. VICTORIA: Sustainability in the environment, and also in our own energy, and emotions, and motivation to get things done. So, I love that. WILL: I see what you did there [laughter]. VICTORIA: Yeah, [inaudible 30:40] all back. Do you have anything else that you'd like to promote? SANGHMITRA: I would really love to also tell people that I'm very open to communication. So, if anyone would like to reach out to me on LinkedIn, it would be really awesome, and we can get on a call as well. I have my Calendly link right on my profile, and I'm very open to communication. So, if there is someone who would like to talk to me about any of the things that interest them or probably something that they could advise me or I could learn from them, I'm more than open to do so. VICTORIA: Love that. And then, do you have any questions for me or Will? SANGHMITRA: So, in terms of the development part, I do have some questions, like, in the technical side. So, when it comes to the fact that we have to kind of calculate the eco actions of individuals in the future, we want to also see if we can calculate the daily actions that they do, for example, walking instead of taking a cab, or segregating their waste, et cetera. I wanted to know, in the future, I want to implement these features, but can we actually get a perfect product around it? Is that possible where we can track everything? WILL: Yeah. So, when you say track everything, like, I know you talked about walking and some of the different actions. Can you expound on that? SANGHMITRA: For example, instead of IoTs...because I know that some hotels they do use IoT devices to track the water consumption, and so on. However, on an individual level, how can we just track it through the smartphone or through the app that they have? Because, okay, walking can be tracked. This is actually one of the challenges I'm facing, so I want to just be open about it, and I'm very open to ideas also. If you have some ideas that I could experiment around, I would really love to. In terms of the activities like walking, waste disposal, and so on, do you think that there are some kind of features that we could implement to track these actions? One of the things that I was thinking about was we let people take a photo of how they are segregating the waste in the end, and through that, we can tell them, "Okay, this is great," and we give them the points. But how can we do it and also automate it at the same time? VICTORIA: So, one approach that I know when people work at thoughtbot on these types of issues and trying to figure out, like, what is the right feature? How are we going to implement this? Going through a product design sprint where you spend a week with a product designer and someone who can, you know, really quickly create MVPs. And you go through this process of figuring out what's the most important feature. And you're talking to users, and you're trying to...you're going through that discovery process in a short period. And we actually have a video series where we walk through every step of that process. But, like, for me personally, things that I can think of in my life that I would want to track one thing I've been trying to do more is actually electronic recycling, which in the U.S. my neighborhood is different. It's only open on, like, Thursdays and Saturdays. And I have to, like, really remember to go out there and, like, put my electronics out there. And I don't think it's very, like, well-known. So, I think that would be something interesting to, like, promote as possible. And we also have the green bins now, which are new, which allow you in California to, like, have composting. So, you have now your regular trash, your recycling, and your compost bins. So, actually, like, trying to use those and track them. Otherwise, one of the things I think about is, like, reducing the amount of plastic consumption, which includes things like, you know, when you buy toilet paper, it comes wrapped in plastic. How can I incentivize myself and my partner and even my family to, like, switch away from those types of products and get more into, you know, using towels instead of paper towels or finding alternative methods for getting those products while reducing the amount of plastic that comes with it? SANGHMITRA: That's super interesting. I'm really, really glad to have your insights as well. I do have a question for you. Have you worked with startups in the field of impact? And if so, what have been some of the ideas that you really loved to implement? VICTORIA: Yeah, actually, we had another guest on the Giant Robots podcast who I think you're connected with as well who created essentially, like, a GoFundMe but for environmental projects and in areas that, you know, a 5,000 grant to help do a beach cleanup could have a really big impact. Like funding programs and marketplace for those types of green projects in areas that are the most impacted by climate change and have the fewest resources to actually do anything about it. So, I thought that was really exciting in trying to figure out how can we use tech to solve problems for real people, and for people that don't typically get the focus or the majority of the funding, or the majority of time spent in those communities. So, that, I think, is what is really exciting: to see people come from those communities and then figure out how to build solutions to serve them. SANGHMITRA: That's really wonderful. Is there, like, a specific market where you have seen growth of such startups and companies more? The companies especially you have worked with in the past and in there in the field of impact, are they mostly from the U.S., or which are the markets they are from essentially? VICTORIA: Yeah. So, I mean, I'm from the U.S., so that's where I see the most. I'm in San Diego. So, when I go to, like, startup weeks and things like that, that's where I'm getting the majority of my exposure. I do also know that there is a Bloomberg Center focusing on excellence and data in the governments. And that's not just U.S.-based but going more global as well, so trying to teach civic leaders how they can use the data about whether it's sustainability or other issues that they're facing too, like, figure out how to prioritize their funding and in what projects they're going to invest in from there. So, I think that's really interesting. I don't know, I don't know what the answer is, but I know that there are some countries that are hoping to make the investments in sustainability and ecotourism, as opposed to allowing industry to come in and do whatever they want [laughs]. So, I don't know if that answers your question or not. SANGHMITRA: Yeah, I think it completely answers my question. Thank you for sharing that and also a bit more. WILL: There's so many things that I've learned through the podcast. So, I'm excited to see the impact it has. And I think you're doing an amazing job. VICTORIA: Thank you so much for coming on and being with us here today and sharing your story. SANGHMITRA: Thank you. WILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@ giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry. VICTORIA: And you can find me on Mastodon @thoughtbot.social@vguido. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.  AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

Host Will Larry is joined by Priyanka Mahajan, the founder of Ammi, a startup dedicated to supporting new and expectant parents with expertise, support, and community. The conversation highlights the challenges of parenting, the absence of a universal parenting manual, and how Ammi seeks to provide a personalized co-pilot for parents navigating the early stages of parenthood. Priyanka shares her journey from a career in strategy consulting and corporate roles across different countries to founding Ammi, driven by personal experiences and the desire to make a meaningful impact on parents' lives. Priyanka discusses the core challenges she faced as a parent, such as dealing with the loss of control, the transition to motherhood, and the importance of acknowledging and navigating the mental and emotional shifts that come with it. She introduces the concept of "matrescence," likening it to adolescence, as a significant, yet underdiscussed, transition into parenthood. Priyanka's personal struggles with anxiety and the impact on her parenting led to the realization of the need for support and resources for parents, particularly in the areas of mental health and emotional well-being. Ammi's mission is to fill the gaps in the current parenting support ecosystem by providing accessible expert advice and resources. Priyanka emphasizes the importance of mental health, the creation of a supportive community, and the development of a digital platform tailored to modern parents' needs. Finally, she outlines the challenges and opportunities ahead, including fundraising, product development, and establishing trust with parents. Ammi (https://www.joinammi.com/) Follow Ammi on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/joinammi/), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@joinammi), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/Join.Ammi/), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/join_ammi). Follow Priyanka Mahajan on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/priyanka-mahajan-0167852/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. And with me today is Priyanka Mahajan, Founder of Ammi, a startup that provides expertise, support, and community to new and expectant parents. Priyanka, thank you for joining me today. PRIYANKA: Will, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. WILL: Yeah. I'm so excited to talk to you about parenting. Anytime I get to talk about parenting, I light up, so I can't wait to talk to you about it, pick your brain, and just hear any advice you have for me. PRIYANKA: [laughs] That's great. It's always nice to talk to people who get the challenges, so very happy to dive into it. WILL: Yeah, definitely. Me and my wife we always talk about we wish kids came with a manual because you just don't know what you're going to get. Out of my three kids, they're all not even close to being similar in any way. PRIYANKA: No, that's totally right. You know, this manual that most people or most parents wish for after their kids are born doesn't quite exist. And it's also deeply personal, and that's exactly what you mentioned about your kids being different. But each parenting experience and, you know, giving birth is different. Each birth is different. Your body is different. So, all of that is quite deeply personal. And that's essentially what we want to do with Ammi is be able to provide this co-pilot to expectant and new parents to guide and help them through that early phase. WILL: Yeah, oh, I can't wait. Before we dive in too deep, can you tell us a little bit about who you are, your background, and kind of how you got to this place? PRIYANKA: So, first thing, I suppose, is I am Indian. I was born and raised in India, and I've lived in about four countries, including the U.S., and now live in London. I started my career in the strategy consulting area and then moved into internal strategy roles for telecoms and tech industry. And I had my children through that period of working for big corporates and essentially, you know, was busy climbing the corporate ladder or moved into different roles. I have headed teams in marketing, in commercial, in other areas like operations. And eventually ended up being a director of strategy for the EMEA region for this large American telecoms company. And it was then that COVID struck and essentially that's basically where there were big, large life events, which I'm happy to get into later. But essentially, I resigned from my role and decided to focus on more meaningful ventures. So, here I am [laughs]. WILL: Yeah. So, were there any challenges having a career and having children? There were challenges. PRIYANKA: That's right. WILL: What were some of the challenges that you faced? PRIYANKA: I had my kids really close together. I had a very difficult birth the first time around. I had a very easy pregnancy but a difficult birth. And especially for parents and, you know, women who are mothers, who are giving birth and previously have had this illusion of control, and, you know, being organized and in control and being on top of everything to suddenly not having anything in your control because that's what kids are like. And not having that acknowledged and, you know, you still expect to do everything in a certain way, and you want to sort of do everything right. And that's just not how parenting is. There's no one right way, and it's okay to make mistakes, but also, equally, it's important to not know that you're failing. And I think that was a challenge that I had equally. You know, I went back into work part-time. And here in the UK, I had a fairly generous maternity leave policy, which was great. But also, having to sort of think about putting my career on a bit of a back burner while my kids took priority was a transition. And just making that transition mentally, emotionally, physically in your life and making space for this new world is quite challenging as, you know, you're sort of grieving the life you had. But you're also embracing what's here and being surprised by it and figuring out who you are. And that the term, actually, is known as matrescence, right? So, it's this process as we have adolescence. It's becoming a parent. It's, you know, its own transition. And I don't think that's been talked about enough, certainly not when I had my kids. So, I wasn't actually aware that that's what I was going through. I just kept thinking that I'm failing. And I think those memories and that experience was deeply embedded in my sort of process. And I went on to, you know, sort of do other things and go back into my career. And I never really dealt with the emotions that I felt at that stage of my early parenting journey. And it really all came to light sort of when Ammi was born and hatched in the incubator that I did after I resigned from my corporate role at ZINC, where, you know, the focus was on children and young people's mental health. And in that, I sort of, like, started to research the space and go like, where do you actually start with children and young people? And you start with the parents at that very early stage. So, that's sort of, like, what led me to almost kind of revisit my own experiences in that phase and think, you know, there was something there. And if we had probably done things differently, maybe the outcomes might have been different for our family, the way that we did things or the way that we dealt with each other in those early years. Because the other thing I learned as well while I was doing my research in that space, which I didn't know at the time when I had my kids, is that children have their emotional development take place pretty much by the time from zero to three years of age. So, it's a very significant period of sort of secure attachment, as we call it, and things. So, that's, again, a lot of concepts that I wasn't familiar with, and I wish that I was kinder to myself. And that's basically what I want to do for the community that I'm supporting through Ammi. WILL: That is such a good point because my oldest son he has a lot of tendecies that are like mine. So, we're a lot alike, and I find that mental health aspect of that, like, how can I help him the most? How can I help him to where he doesn't have the same failures I have? Like, it's not easy being a parent because it's like, do I step in? Do I not? Do I let him fail? Do I not let him fail? So, like, and like you said, I think parenting is probably one of the most lonely things you can go through at times, depending on who's around you, if you have family around you, friends that have children, or not. So, I'm so glad that you said that you're diving into that mental health aspect also. PRIYANKA: Yeah, that's a key pillar of what we do and what we're building essentially at Ammi. So, the mental health aspect is one that isn't really talked about, and there's a lot of stigma and shame associated with that, in that early stage especially. And the figures itself are astounding, you know, in the UK itself, it's 1 in 3 mothers experience perinatal mental health issues. In the U.S., I think it's 1 in 5. And 1 in 10 dads experience mental health issues. And there is a certain shame in addressing that. You're meant to be happy, and you're meant to be blessed. And which is true, you are blessed, and, you know, there are moments of happiness. But this is a massive transition that you're going through. And it's an interesting word you used as well: lonely. So, in our research and interviews with the countless scores of, you know, tens of moms that we have interviewed, the most common word was isolation. It's exactly that. Like, it can feel like a very isolating experience without the village or the community that kids were meant to be raised under and parents were meant to be supported through that. But that is no longer the case in the way that we live today. And that's where there's an opportunity to provide that to parents in a way that works with our modern lives as well. So, for example, what we're doing at Ammi with the mental health particularly is we have developed an evidence-based solution based on acceptance and commitment therapy, which is essentially an incredible sort of modality of therapy that addresses life changes in particular. It helps you figure out your values and your parenting values and helps you set goals and actions in line with those values. So, you feel like you have meaning even though your life is changing, and it still feels significant. And now, of course, you're in charge of a child. So, how do you ensure that you're not losing yourself but equally you're bringing your own values to your parenting? I just found it fascinating. And we're doing this in a digital way. We're doing this in a way that works for the modern parent. So, it's bite-sized. It's on your phone. You can interact with it in the middle of the night when you're feeding the baby, or you're, you know, sort of up at the odd hours of the morning with your child. That's essentially, like, what we're doing with that particular mental health piece. WILL: That is so good because I think even you said the values, like, I think we forget about that easily. And that is everything we do, like, the way we talk to our kids, the way we're raising them, the way we discipline them, what school they're going to. But I think so many times we run out of mental headspace to even talk about those things and to write them down. So, oh, that's so good that you go through that, and you help them discover what their values are because I think sometimes, as parents, you can lose that. Even if you had the values before you had kids, it's easy to lose those values and to remember why you're doing it. PRIYANKA: That's right. And, you know, in some cases, you know, you forget, and you don't even know really what your values might be, right? Like, you're just kind of doing things because you think you should. And should is a dangerous word as well because it's sort of, how do you uncover what it is that you really want to do as well? And what's authentic to you as an individual and as a parent? So, for example, I'll give you one, like, structure, right? Like, I, as a parent, can get so hung up on structure as a value. I forget about connection. And, actually, if I had to, like, sort of rank these, you know, connection would be higher on my list, personally. And it's like, why am I not acting on that? And so, what values essentially do is give you this compass in terms of, like, deciding what course of action to take and how you prioritize things. And, equally, it's also important to note that, you know, values do shift and change. So, we say in this world that it's imagine that you're looking at a globe, and a globe sort of, like, spins. And there may be some values that are topical now, but others that come to fore. So, you've got to, like, hold them lightly as well and acknowledge that they do shift. And all of this may seem sort of a bit indulgent to talk and think about, but, actually, it's really relevant in your day-to-day and also in the way that you live, you work, you parent. It's all very relevant. And I think it's important to bring light to that in the parenting context as well. WILL: That's really, really good. So, I wanted to kind of dive deeper into those pillars you're talking about. I know you said mental health was one. What are some of the other pillars that you cover? PRIYANKA: You know, the other thing that I've lived through and I've discovered in my, you know, research with my community and with my parents is it's one thing to sort of work on yourself, right? But if the system around you is a bit broken, it's not all in your control. So, what we want to do as well is, like, fill some of those gaps that currently exist in the system. So, for example, you know, here in the UK, since COVID especially, and for a few years before then, you know, we rely on the public healthcare system. And there have been significant challenges with funding there, which means that a lot of the support that was available to birthing parents, to birthing people are just not available anymore. There's no continuity of care, the kind of support you could expect in terms of checks and, you know, seeing the same person, for example, seeing the same midwife. That just doesn't exist anymore. So, what you end up having is a lot of parents who are trying to do their best, but essentially scrambling around looking for solutions, whether that's, like, for sleep, or breastfeeding, or nutrition and taking care of their baby. And that is what essentially results in those feelings of failure. So, what we want to do at Ammi is actually provide that practical expertise as well in the most accessible way. For example, here you could go private. You could see these experts privately, but that's really expensive. And there's nothing really available in the middle, I mean, apart from, like, the free Instagram reels and things. So, what we want to do is be able to provide, again, convenient formats where you can directly access these experts. And what I mean by that is, and what we already do here at Ammi, is we run online workshops with these experts, and these are currently actually free for parents to join. So, we rope in experts who are equally passionate about this. So, they could be experts in pediatrics, or they could be experts in physical and maternal health and wellness, but also infant health and wellness. And they run these sessions for us, and parents can join and essentially interacting live. It happens usually after bedtime, so when parents can attend. And that's one format. What we also want to build within our digital solution is a way for parents to access these experts on chat, text messaging, as well as book appointments with them, but, like, they may be shorter form appointments, so they're not as expensive. And it's virtual, which, again, cuts out the cost of actually having to see the expert in an office or in a space that is charged, so that helps with some of the cost. Equally, it helps to have experts who can do this on their downtime on chat format. So, that also helps with the cost. So, we're trying to experiment with these different formats that also work from a parent standpoint of convenience. So, you're not taking time off work to see these experts. So, you're not doing that in, like, daytime hours or when your baby's sleeping. So, it's really about convenience and accessibility. WILL: That sounds really good. I like the access to the people that know what they're talking about, especially late at night and things like that. That sounds so amazing because there's so many times that, like, I remember whenever, Cruz, he's my oldest, he just wasn't feeding with Katie. And we were like, we don't know why. And the first couple of weeks, I think we went into a doctor's office, like, three or four times just to make sure that he got back up to his birth weight. And it was scary. It was like, are we doing anything wrong? Like, what do we have to do to get him to this place and stuff like that? So, I think sometimes it's just like, "Hey, you're doing the right thing." Like we had one pediatrician...we moved from North Carolina to Florida, and we kind of miss our old pediatrician. Because when we walked in, she was just like, "Hey, he's healthy. I could tell he's healthy, and you're doing all the things right." It was almost like a weight lifted off our backs just to hear like, "Hey. You're doing okay." So, that's good to hear that you're providing that to parents and stuff. You say you're based in London. PRIYANKA: Right. WILL: And I'm just being honest; I have no idea what the medical situation looks like there. Can you explain what that looks like? Because I know what it looks like in the U.S. But I don't want to be naive and say, "Oh, it's the same." What does it look like when you say someone can't have access to a private provider? PRIYANKA: So, it's not that they can't have access. So, historically, in a lot of countries in Europe and here in the UK, we have what is called the National Healthcare System or the NHS. And, essentially, what that means is that your healthcare is covered by the state, which is incredible, actually that, you know, you don't really need to spend on private insurance or private healthcare. So, for most parents, including myself, I gave birth both times through the NHS. What that means is that, you know, you sort of, like, you get into the system. You go to your GP. You don't actually get a pediatrician, which is also something that I wasn't used to in India, but there's no pediatricians. And they have a system that you go through. So, you know, you get assigned a hospital, or you can choose a hospital that's local, but generally, you get assigned to a hospital. And you sort of give birth there under their condition. So, there's not a lot of agency and that, I guess, is the key word because you are under the healthcare system. And essentially, that is the majority. The overwhelming majority of people give birth that way in the UK. I think 12% of the UK has private insurance cover. But equally, even if you have private insurance cover, which means that you can choose your medical care or you can, you know, sort of reimburse, get reimbursed, and things, a lot of them don't actually cover giving birth because it's not a medical condition. So, you have to pay for that privately, and it does cost quite a significant sum of money if you want to go private. And there's just a few hospitals, actually, in London. There's not that many hospitals outside of London that do this either. So, it's not a very accessible option for most people because it's expensive, and there just aren't enough places that do that. So, in terms of that continuity of care, you have your GP, but, you know, the GP, essentially, has 10 minutes per appointment. So, you don't get a lot of time with your healthcare provider. And equally, when you have your midwife appointments to the NHS now, you don't see the same person, so, you know, through your scan. So, it's generally someone different. You might get lucky and see the same person. So, it's quite intimidating, I have to say, you know, you don't know really, like, what you can, cannot ask for. It's not very clear what your rights are, even though, you know, they do try their best. But because of the funding shortages now and the way that the system is going, people really are struggling to access care to the level. I mean, even, you know, the midwives are leaving the NHS. There's 29 out of 30 midwives leave the NHS after two years of training, which is shocking given, you know, the investment that they make in time. So, it is getting pretty dire, and people's birth stories are just getting quite horrific. And it's become commonplace. It's not unusual anymore, where it used to be quite unusual. You know, there's this perfect storm building right now here in the UK of people who are struggling to get the care they need. And paternity services, in particular, are also suffering quite a lot. And there's this dearth of services, right? And people are starting, like, there are a lot of, like, sort of, like, now smaller companies coming up, trying to, like, fill in this gap through employee benefits, which is one of the routes that we plan to take to market as well. But also, birth coaches is, you have the birthing coaches and doulas. And this is a very small market here in the UK, but it's growing in, like, triple digits year on year. So, it's really interesting to see the private world is stepping up or is trying to step up to the challenges of what the public system isn't able to do anymore. Does that help, or [chuckles] does it sort of give you some context? WILL: Yes, that helps tremendously because here, where I'm at, it's mostly employee benefits, and it's more private. We still have so many issues because I was thinking what you're doing. I was like, oh, that's so helpful, even with what we're dealing with, but it sounds like even next level. Like, I can't imagine taking my kid to the doctor and seeing a different doctor every single time because sometimes that's part of the helpfulness is they're like, "Oh, we know your kid. We know what they're going through. And, actually, I probably treated them the last time they were in here, so I kind of know." Because even if you have notes, it's tough to understand exactly what you saw. Yeah, I could see the benefits of what you're doing. So, that's amazing. PRIYANKA: Yeah, that's right. And equally, like, with the employee benefits now, this is one of the benefits. The top five benefits that employees want from their employers is more family support and more time around that. And we're also seeing in terms of, you know, employee retention, right? And keeping the gender pay gap at the minimum. It's about retaining also your, you know, female employees, especially mothers who tend to leave the workforce after having children, even here in the UK. I know it's actually a lot worse in the U.S., is my understanding. But even here in the UK where you do get more benefits in terms of maternity leave, it's still the cost of childcare. And there are so many other issues about just not having that support system that completely sort of overwhelm the families for one of them to have to drop their career, which is unfortunate. So, I think there is definitely a play here for employers to step up here in the UK and in Europe to this challenge of retaining their employees through benefits such as this. Mid-Roll Ad: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what's important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode. WILL: What are some other ideas that you have? What does success look like in the next six months, five years for you? Where are y'all going? PRIYANKA: Well, in the next six months, I think it's really about getting the product to market, like, getting our MVP and product out there. You know, we're doing things in a very scrappy way at the moment. I am, for all practical purposes, a solo founder, and I've been bootstrapping. What we have developed, you know, with my fractional team of clinicians and my CTO is we have a really high-spec figma prototype of what our solution would look like. We have our content ready and the mental health, the evidence-based mental health program ready. It's now about getting that on a platform, and that is going to require some funding. So, I'm in the process of fundraising. So, ideally, in six months, we would have raised enough money to get that MVP out and to get this product in the hands of our customers, our customers being potentially employers. But also, you know, within the Ammi community, I've also been building a community as I've been running these online sessions and creating that side of content as well on the practical expertise side. And we've got about 500-plus parents around London who have attended our workshops, and most of them are part of this community. And, you know, they're the ones that we've sort of tapped on for our testing. For also the content that we developed, we handed it over to them and, you know, we ran a trial and with some great results. So, that's basically the kind of work that we've done so far over the last year. And, really, in the next six months, it's about getting the product out, raising some money, and, yeah, hopefully, being revenue-generating. So [laughs], it's a lot to look forward to, a lot to do. WILL: It sounds like that's that next heel, the next step, so...and it sounds fun. You help parents with their core values. What are some of the core values that you use and that you have that you make decisions through every day? PRIYANKA: It's about authenticity. That's the guiding principle. It's about being authentic to our mission, being authentic to what the customer wants, you know, first and foremost, and authentic to what my vision for Ammi is, which is to be that co-pilot in those early years. And how that sort of helps me is even when I look at funding, and I look at the type of funding or who we, you know, want money from, I know that, you know, sort of, we can't really dictate that at this point. But I really don't want there to be a risk of mission drift from what we're trying to do here. I've lived that life before where I've done things to just sort of tick the boxes. And I do genuinely think that there is a commercial opportunity here as well within the mission that we're trying to achieve because, you know, from employers to parents themselves, they're spending money on this now, and, you know, the tide is turning. So, for me, authenticity is number one. And, generally, like, you know, when I am faced with any decisions, whether that's a product-based decision, I'm like, right, like, what's more important to our community? What do they really want? So, it's all about going back there and seeing, like, what is going to give them most value? It's about understanding when we look at the development or getting team members on board, it's, you know, who believes in the mission? So, that generally is what guides me in my day-to-day decision-making process. WILL: Yeah, I really like that because I feel like, especially with social media, there's a lack of authenticity sometimes. Sometimes, I feel like society wants you to be this superhero as parents. And sometimes it's like, I think I have some of my best moments with my kids and some of my worst times with my kids. Just, like, I think sometimes just being honest about this is where you're at as a parent. You're doing okay. Maybe you need to tweak this, this, and this, but I think that's a good thing to go by. So, I really like that you said that. PRIYANKA: Well, there's lots of ways to make money. Entrepreneurship that might be one of the things you do to make money, right? But it's not the easiest way. You know, I gave up my corporate career for a good reason, and I want to remember that. It was to sort of achieve big things but being authentic. So, that's really, like, where we are at. WILL: I love it. Love it. I usually ask this question around careers, but I'm going to ask it for parenting. So, if you can go back in time and give yourself advice on your parenting, what advice would you give? PRIYANKA: I would just say chill out [laughs]. You know, I think I was so hard on myself, right? So, for example, like, you know, when my son was born, my firstborn, I was so hell-bent on breastfeeding and, like, every bottle I had to give him a bottle day three because, you know, like you, like, my son as well he lost a lot of his weight, and we got worried. And he wasn't feeding. I didn't have a supply. So, it was so hard, and I felt like I failed. Every time he didn't sleep through the night, it felt like I failed. So, I sort of took responsibility for all of it. Like, you know, this is, you know, that I'm failing this next project. But I wish I could just, you know, sort of go back and be like, this is all part of the journey. And this is a, you know, sort of a small person that you're trying to raise, and they have different rhythms, and it doesn't go by the book. So, those are some of the things I would tell myself is just to be kinder. And, you know, actually, that's another thing that we do at Ammi is, like, just that self-compassion in our program about, like, just being easy on yourself for those years. I had to sort of come back and, you know, as you said, bounce back. And, again, all of that there's just incredible amounts of pressure on parents. Yeah, I think I would just tell myself to be kinder and be patient through all of that and things will work out. WILL: I appreciate you saying that because I needed to hear that, to be honest with you. [laughter] Yeah. Just, I think, my kids are 4, 3, and almost 2, so, like, 22 months. So, "It's going to be okay, and chill out" is really good advice for me to hear at this time. So, I appreciate you saying that. PRIYANKA: Yeah. And it will be, you know, I mean, I know it's hard. Like, it's as they say, the days are, you know, long, and the years are short. But when you're in it and when you haven't slept in a week [laughs], it can feel like it's just dragging on forever [laughter]. And that's one of the hardest challenges, right? Sleep deprivation. So, sleep workshops are the most popular, as you would expect. You know, we get sleep experts to come in and talk about it. And, generally, you know, what's really interesting is, like, through a lot of these workshops, what they all end up really saying is that everything is normal [laughs]. So, it's not like one sort of thing is normal. And just having an expert say that to you and say that to our parents who join these calls is just incredibly relieving for them that they're not, you know, in some race and competition to see whose kid has slept through the night or, like, what's, you know, what I'm doing wrong, whose kid is eating the most variety of fruit and veg, you know, that's not what it's about. It's all normal. And they just go away and sleep well that night, right? Like, after a workshop because they're like, this is great. I'm doing it okay [laughter]. WILL: Well, once again, that's good to hear because, like, last night, I think I got five hours of sleep because of my son. PRIYANKA: Ooh. WILL: Thank you for saying even that because, like, you question yourself a lot. Like, I know I do. I question myself a lot. Am I doing the right thing? Is this what I'm supposed to be doing? So yeah, that's really good to hear. PRIYANKA: Yeah, it's a common ailment that [laughs], you know, sort of goes around the parents of our generation, I think. WILL: Yes, definitely. What are some of the biggest hurdles you see coming up? PRIYANKA: As a startup, there's hurdles every day. You know, there's things sort of that we're...challenges that we're facing, but really in, you know, in the current climate, I think it's about securing the right kind of funding and the amount of funding we think we need in order to get the product developed and go to market. That is a big hurdle. I have, you know, sort of some plan B set up in terms of how we could, you know, sort of test our solution in other ways and in scrappier ways. And we're kind of working on that alongside it. But it's a difficult environment for startups right now, as you might have been aware. And especially with healthcare and wellness, in particular, it's been pretty hard over the last couple of years. The problem hasn't gone away, you know, so mental health and, you know, sort of wellness was a thing two, three years ago. And then, you know, it's all shifted to climate and sort of climate tech, which is great because that is also a problem, but equally, we haven't fixed any of this yet. And there are, I think, opportunities to do things in this area that might be missed if the funding doesn't come along. So, funding is definitely one thing. Yeah, in terms of hurdles, if we do get the funding, it's about making sure that we get the right team together. As I said, I'm a solo founder, so that in itself is a hurdle every day as I try to sort of juggle the bootstrapping and the endless to-do list that I have with Ammi. So, I'd say, yeah, I think those are really the big things that I'm focusing on. WILL: Yeah, I love that. And yeah, I agree. Funding is probably, yeah, that's a big hurdle. And as a parent, it's much needed just to hear those things. So, I hope it all works out and it goes well. PRIYANKA: Yeah, no, thank you. And sort of showing that it's a need, but also, it's a commercial opportunity, right? Like, parents now in the UK, the spending that parents do in that first couple of years that their baby is born has skyrocketed. And more and more, you know, as we see, like, parents coming into sort of this journey now, are aware of the impact that poor sort of mental state can have on their children. It's not like how it was when I gave birth. Like, I think a lot of parents now are well aware, and they want to sort of be fit, not just physically, but also mentally for this journey. So, there's a lot of trends that are in our favor. So, you know, when it comes to things like spending on services rather than goods, you know, that's going up, the awareness around mental health. Unfortunately, the incidence of poor mental health is also going up. And so, people are coming into this, and there are multiple challenges, you know, that contribute to that as well. And the risk factors, unfortunately, is another thing. So, for example, a lot more parents are getting into parenting after having a difficult fertility journey or having experienced loss or, you know, neonatal ICU moments. So, all of that is really stressful to deal with. And then, you know, then have this child to sort of look after when you're barely healing yourself. So, I think people are recognizing the need for this, certainly, the parents are. It's about making sure that investors see that now as well as a commercial opportunity. WILL: Yeah, I really like that. Yeah, I totally agree with that. What motivated you to start your company? Like, was it just the experience that you went through when you were raising your kids, or was there a certain thing that motivated you? Because, like you said, entrepreneurship is not easy at all. So, what motivated you to want to start your company? PRIYANKA: You know, as I mentioned, I was, you know, sort of on that sort of corporate ladder for many years. And while I was, you know, even doing that, I think there was a certain restlessness inside of me. Am I living my most authentic life? Like, is this how I want to spend my days? You know, and I have a family now. Is this what I want to be doing when I'm not at home? And that was sort of bothering me. And then, you know, 2020 happened, right? And I'm a statistic of the great resignation, but, like, it really was triggered by some significant life events. So, very, very early, like, almost before any of the lockdowns and start of the pandemic, in February 2020, my husband got really sick with COVID and was on a ventilator for ten days. They didn't even know really what COVID was at the time. He was one of the first, like, maybe 20, 30 patients in London in hospital. And yeah, we almost lost him. So, that was big. And, you know, at the time, I was dealing with a high-pressure job and very young kids at home, you know, sort of at the end of my sort of mental space as well. And I took some time off and just decided then, like, I think I need to sort of pivot now. I need to, you know, life is too short. So, I resigned from my role a few months in and decided to focus on more meaningful ventures. And that's when I stumbled upon ZINC venture capital. So, ZINC venture capital is an incubator accelerator program here in the UK. And they invest in mission-based businesses, and their '21, '22 cohort was actually, as I said earlier, you know, on children and young people's mental health. And within that, you know, while I was researching it, I think it just brought up these memories of being, like, in that early phase of parenting. And I started meeting a lot of moms who were in that phase and just realizing that these are, you know, capable women who are at their most vulnerable physically and emotionally at this time, and they're being let down. You know, these families are being let down by the system, by the environment that we live in, and, essentially, feeling like they're failing. And I recognized that in my own experiences. I had a lot of anxiety, as I, you know, sort of mentioned with my firstborn. And I think that did impact. And, to date, we're sort of probably dealing with the impact of the way that we were as parents, you know, with him. And I just wish I had done things differently or I knew different. And that's really, like, what has motivated me. And I see, you know, these moms, like, looking for solutions and these dads as well, like, sort of more aware of these issues, but they don't have the support. So, that's really, like, where Ammi was born was, you know, during my time there. And it was also a process of, like, finding my own personal mission, you know. And I feel deeply motivated by this, by solving the problem really. I'm not so married to the solutions. It really, for me, is about the problem and making sure that we get the right solution in people's hands. WILL: Yeah, I really like that. I think 2020 was rough for everyone. I think it was really, really rough. It was rough for me. Like you said, it was rough for you. But I'm hoping that we're going to start seeing...because someone was telling me about trends that happen. Like, we usually go through a really rough time, but then that's usually when we get creative solutions afterwards. And so, I'm hoping that's what we're seeing, you know, with your company and many others, which is those creative solutions from 2020. All that that happened I'm hoping that we're starting to see more and more creative solutions. So, I'm so glad that you're starting this and that you stepped out and that you're doing this because I think it's going to benefit a lot of people. PRIYANKA: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. It's good to hear as well [laughs]. WILL: Yeah, definitely. So, clearly, there's a need for your solution. So, what are you hearing from the investor side, and what does that look like? PRIYANKA: It's interesting. With things that have to do with wellness or sort of parenting, and, you know, as we now call it, like, femtech, there seems to be this perception that it's a crowded space. I can see why people say that, you know, maybe there is this sort of influx of, you know, your Instagram feed full of, like, momfluencers or messages that are coming across on parenting and things. But if you really ask parents if they feel supported and they have access to what they need, they're still struggling. And they're still finding it difficult because every parent's journey is a little different, and they need that direct access. That's still quite hard to get. Like, you could do your research, but equally, that takes up time. So, I think what we're doing differently at Ammi and what we're really doing here is to make that access to experts as easy, convenient, and affordable as possible, and I think there's definitely a space and market for that. Making that access sort of affordable and easy but equally, like, having that support, having the coaching support and continuity of care, which doesn't exist anymore, and not a lot of people are doing that yet. There are a few startups that are sort of entering the space. In the U.S. I think, actually, there's been more proof of this concept working with the incredible work that Maven Clinic has done, for example. But in the UK, it's still pretty niche, and in Europe. So, I think there's a potential for a big player to come in and take up that space. And that's what I'd like investors to know is that: the commercial opportunity is not to be understated here in terms of what that is. There's, you know, 600,000 new parents in the UK every year. And if you think about it, if even 10% of those are spending what is the average on the baby's first few years of life, which is anywhere between 8,000 to 15,000 in that year, a percentage of that does go to services. That already is a huge annual market that one could be looking at entering, sorting, and de-fragmentizing or...well, that's not the word but organizing because it is a very, very fragmented space. And there is opportunity to make that a lot easier for parents. That's kind of the message I'd like to get out there. WILL: As a parent, I'm glad you said that because one thing I keep hearing you saying is experts, experts. I like that your platform has experts, and I can trust their info. Because I get some info from social media, but sometimes I'm like, can I trust this information? Is it real? Is it AI? Whatever it is. So, I like yours that it's like, we've added these solutions, and they're experts. So, that's, yeah, I can see how that's so beneficial. PRIYANKA: Right. And that is what most parents tell us is: trust is such a big factor. Parenting is, like, one of the biggest things that you'll do in your life, you know, and trust is essential because you don't just want to be trying things at random or, you know, sort of sometimes you do that, but it's not ideal. And most parents will pay for that, too, you know, they will pay to talk to an expert. They will pay for that. They might not pay for the free information that comes in their way. And this is why, like, content is one part of a strategy, but it's not core to it. It really is about creating those personalized journeys. And maybe this is another conversation as well for next time, but it really is about, like, scaling that. And that's really interesting in how we plan to do that as well. How do you scale personalized solutions? And I think that could be really interesting. WILL: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I could definitely see if you could figure that out, wow, it opens up so many avenues for you. So, that's amazing. So, with your solutions, how have you validated that this is what your users want and this is what they need so that they're successful? PRIYANKA: We've been doing a process of validation right from the beginning. You know, I've run ideation sessions—co-creation sessions. I've done maybe 20-plus interviews with mums and run surveys with over a hundred parents to really understand what it is they need. So, we developed, like, the version one of our prototype based on the top problems that parents told us they were having, the kind of ways in which they wanted to access help. So that's where, you know, sort of the creative ideas around text chat and workshops and ways to make it more accessible came about, even things like having all of that on your phone because most parents will be on their phone in those early years and not so much on desktop. So, that was another thing that informed all of that. So, we did two rounds of testing, and then we did another third round as well to ensure that we were, like, tweaking our prototype to really make it exciting for parents. And once we developed our mental health or sort of a mental health coaching platform, we also ran that on a two-week trial with a bunch of Ammi sort of community members. And the results were, like, really reassuring and almost overwhelming to some extent with, you know, some moms saying that, you know, doing some of those exercises help them sleep at night. And some others said, "Oh, wow, these sections really speak to me on values and goal setting." Some others said that "You know, it really helped me provide that moment of calm and stop my ruminating thoughts." And all of this is really encouraging to hear from people directly as they've used your content and your platform. So, that's sort of, like, the validation we've been through. And I think it's always going to be a process. You know, even when we come out with version 1, we're going to learn what people are interacting with most. And, you know, I'm really interested to see how they react and their behaviors around the text chat particularly. So yeah, it's one of the best parts about building something is that interaction with your users and community. Like I said, it's 500-plus moms who are part of this community now and who've been informing the solution at every step of the way. WILL: I love that you took that step to validate it. Priyanka, thank you for joining me today. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for the episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

Kent C. Dodds, a JavaScript engineer and teacher known for Epic Web Dev and the Remix web framework, reflects on his journey in tech, including his tenure at PayPal and his transition to full-time teaching. Kent's passion for teaching is a constant theme throughout. He transitioned from corporate roles to full-time education, capitalizing on his ability to explain complex concepts in an accessible manner. This transition was marked by the creation of successful online courses like "Testing JavaScript and Epic React," which have significantly influenced the web development community. An interesting aspect of Kent's career is his involvement with Remix, including his decision to leave Shopify (which acquired Remix) to return to teaching, which led to the development of his latest project, Epic Web Dev, an extensive and innovative web development course. This interview provides a comprehensive view of Kent C. Dodds's life and career, showcasing his professional achievements in web development and teaching, his personal life as a family man, and his unique upbringing in a large family. Epic Web (https://www.epicweb.dev/) Remix (https://remix.run/) Follow Kent C. Dodds on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/kentcdodds/) or X (https://twitter.com/kentcdodds). Visit his website at kentcdodds.com (https://kentcdodds.com/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. And with me today is Kent C. Dodds. Kent is a JavaScript engineer and teacher. He has recently released a massive workshop called epicweb.dev. And he is the father of four kids. Kent, thank you for joining me. KENT: Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here. WILL: Yeah. And it's an honor for me to have you. I am a huge fan. I think you're the one that taught me how to write tests and the importance of it. So, I'm excited to talk to you and just pick your brain and learn more about you. KENT: Oh, thank you. WILL: Yeah. So, I just want to start off just: who is Kent? What do you like to do? Tell us about your family, your hobbies, and things like that. KENT: Yeah, sure. So, you mentioned I'm the father of four kids. That is true. We are actually expecting our fifth child any day now. So, we are really excited to have our growing family. And when I'm not developing software or material for people to learn how to develop software, I'm spending time with my family. I do have some other hobbies and things, but I try to share those with my family as much as I can. So, it's starting to snow around here in Utah. And so, the mountains are starting to get white, and I look forward to going up there with my family to go skiing and snowboarding this season. During the summertime, I spend a lot of time on my one-wheel just riding around town and bring my kids with me when I can to ride bikes and stuff, too. So, that's sort of the personal side of my life. And then, professionally, I have been in this industry developing for the web professionally for over a decade. Yeah, web development has just worked out super well for me. I kind of focused in on JavaScript primarily. And when I graduated with a master's degree in Information Systems at Brigham Young University, I started working in the industry. I bounced around to a couple of different companies, most of them you don't know, but you'd probably be familiar with PayPal. I was there for a couple of years and then decided to go full-time on teaching, which I had been doing as, like, a part-time thing, or, like, on the side all those years. And yeah, when teaching was able to sustain my family's needs, then I just switched full-time. So, that was a couple of years ago that I did that. I think like, 2018 is when I did that. I took a 10-month break to help Remix get off the ground, the Remix web framework. They got acquired by Shopify. And so, I went back to full-time teaching, not that I don't like Shopify, but I felt like my work was done, and I could go back to teaching. So, that's what I'm doing now, full-time teacher. WILL: Wow. Yes, I definitely have questions around that. KENT: [laughs] Okay. WILL: So many. But I want to start back...you were saying you have four kids. What are their ages? KENT: Yeah, my oldest is 11, youngest right now is 6, and then we'll have our fifth one. So, all four of the kids are pretty close in age. And then my wife and I thought we were done. And then last December, we kind of decided, you know what? I don't think we're done. I kind of think we want to do another. So, here we go. We've got a larger gap between my youngest and the next child than we have between my oldest and the youngest child. WILL: [chuckles] KENT: So, we're, like, starting a new family, or [laughs] something. WILL: Yeah [laughs]. I just want to congratulate you on your fifth child. That's amazing. KENT: Thank you. WILL: Yeah. How are you feeling about that gap? KENT: Yeah, we were pretty intentional about having our kids close together because when you do that, they have built-in friends that are always around. And as they grow older, you can do the same sorts of things with them. So, like, earlier this year, we went to Disneyland, and they all had a great time. They're all at the good age for that. And so, they actually will remember things and everything. Yeah, we were pretty certain that four is a good number for us and everything. But yeah, we just started getting this nagging feeling we wanted another one. So, like, the fact that there's a big gap was definitely not in the plan. But I know a lot of people have big gaps in their families, and it's just fine. So, we're going to be okay; just it's going to change the dynamic and change some plans for us. But we're just super excited to have this next one. WILL: I totally understand what you mean by having them close together. So, I have three little ones, and my oldest and my youngest share the same exact birthday, so they're exactly three years apart. KENT: Oh, wow. Yeah, that's actually...that's fun. My current youngest and his next oldest brother are exactly two years apart. They share the same birthday, too [laughs]. WILL: Wow. You're the first one I've heard that their kids share a birthday. KENT: Yeah, I've got a sister who shares a birthday with her son. And I think we've got a couple of birthdays that are shared, but I also have 11 brothers and sisters [laughs]. And so, I have got a big family, lots of opportunity for shared birthdays in my family. WILL: Yeah, I was actually going to ask you about that. How was it? I think you're the 11th. So, you're the youngest of 11? KENT: I'm the second youngest. So, there are 12 of us total. I'm number 11. WILL: Okay, how was that growing up with that many siblings? KENT: I loved it. Being one of the youngest I didn't really...my experience was very different from my older siblings. Where my older siblings probably ended up doing a fair bit of babysitting and helping around the house in that way, I was the one being babysat. And so, like, by the time I got to be, like, a preteen, or whatever, lots of my siblings had already moved out. I was already an uncle by the time I was six. I vaguely remember all 12 of us being together, but most of my growing up was just every other year; I'd have another sibling move out of the house, which was kind of sad. But they'd always come back and visit. And now I just have an awesome relationship with every one of my family members. And I have something, like, 55 nieces and nephews or more. Yeah, getting all of us together every couple of years for reunions is really a special experience. It's a lot of fun. WILL: Yeah. My mom, she had 12 brothers and sisters. KENT: Whoa. WILL: And I honestly miss it because we used to get together all the time. I used to live a lot closer. Most of them are in Louisiana or around that area, and now I'm in South Florida, so I don't get to see them as often. But yeah, I used to love getting together. I had so many cousins, and we got in so much trouble...and it was -- KENT: [laughs] WILL: We loved it [laughs]. KENT: Yeah, that's wonderful. I love that. WILL: Yeah. Well, I want to start here, like, how did you get your start? Because I know...I was doing some research, and I saw that, at one point, you were an AV tech. You were a computer technician. You even did maintenance. Like, what was the early start of your career like, and how did you get into web dev? KENT: I've always been very interested in computers, my interest was largely video games. So, when I was younger, I had a friend who was a computer programmer or, like, would program stuff. We had visions of...I don't know if you're familiar with RuneScape, but it's this game that he used to play, and I would play a little bit. It was just a massive online multiplayer game. And so, we had visions of building one of those and having it just running in the background, making us money, as if that's how that works [laughter]. But he tried to teach me programming, and I just could not get it at all. And so I realized at some point that playing video games all the time wasn't the most productive use of my time on computers, and if I wanted my parents to allow me to be on computers, I needed to demonstrate that I could be productive in learning, and making things, and stuff. So, I started blogging and making videos and just, like, music videos. My friend, who was the programmer, he was into anime, or anime, as people incorrectly pronounce it. And [laughs] there was this website called amv.com or .org or something. It's Anime Music Videos. And so, we would watch these music videos. And I'd say, "I want to make a music video with Naruto." And so, I would make a bunch of music videos from the Naruto videos I downloaded, and that was a lot of fun. I also ran around with a camera to do that. And then, with the blog, I wrote a blog about Google and the stuff that Google was, like, doing because I just thought it was a fascinating company. I always wanted to work at Google. In the process of, like, writing the blog, I got exposed to CSS and HTML, but I really didn't do a whole lot of programming. I also did a little bit of Google Docs. Spreadsheets had some JavaScript macros-type things that you could do. So, I did a little bit of that, but I never really got too far into programming. Then I go to college, I'm thinking, you know what? I think I want to be a video editor. I really enjoy that. And so, my brother, who at the time was working at Micron, he did quality assurance on the memory they were making. So, he would build test automation, software and hardware for testing the memory they build. And so, he recommended that I go into electrical engineering. Because what he would say is, "If you understand computers at that foundational level, you can do anything with computers." And I'd say, "Well, I like computers. And if I go into video editing, I'm going to need to understand computers, too. So yeah, sure, let's let's do that." I was also kind of interested in 3D animation and stuff like that, too. Like, I wasn't very good at it, but I was kind of interested in that, too. So, I thought, like, having a really good foundation on computers would be a good thing for me. Well, I was only at school for a semester when I took a break to go on a mission for my church [inaudible 09:42] mission. And when I got back and started getting back into things, I took a math refresher course. That was, like, a half a credit. It wasn't really a big thing, but I did terrible in it. I did so bad. And it was about that time that I realized, you know what? I've been thinking my whole life that I'm good at math. And just thinking back, I have no idea why or any justification for why I thought I was good at math because in high school, I always struggled with it. I spent so much time with it. And in fact, my senior year, I somehow ended up with a free period of nothing else to do. I don't know how this happened. But, I used that free period to go to an extra edition of my calculus class. So, I was going to twice as much calculus working, like, crazy hard and thinking that I was good at this, and I superduper was not [laughter]. And so, after getting back from my mission and taking that refresher course, I was like, you know what? Math is a really important part of engineering, and I'm not good at it at all, obviously. And so, I've got to pivot to something else. Well, before my mission, as part of the engineering major, you needed to take some programming classes. So, there was a Java programming class that I took and a computer systems class that included a lot of programming. The computer systems was very low level, so we were doing zeros and ones. And I wrote a program in zeros and ones. All that it did was it would take input from the keyboard, and then spit that back out to you as output. That was what it did. But still, you know, many lines of zeros and ones and just, like, still, I can't believe I did that [laughter]. And then we upgraded from that to Assembly, and what a godsend that was [laughs], how wonderful Assembly was after working in machine code. But then we upgraded from that to C, and that's as far as that class went. And then, yeah, my Java class, we did a bunch of stuff. And I just remember thinking or really struggling to find any practicality to what we were doing. Like, in the Java class, we were implementing the link to list data structure. And I was like, I do not care about this. This does not make any sense. Why should I care? We were doing these transistor diagrams in the computer systems class. And why do I care about that? I do not care about this at all. Like, this is not an interesting thing for me. So, I was convinced computer programming was definitely not what I wanted to do. So, when I'm switching from electrical engineering, I'm thinking, well, what do I do? And my dad convinced me to try accounting. That was his profession. He was a certified public accountant. And so, I said, "Okay, I'll try that." I liked the first class, and so I switched my major to go into the business school for accounting. I needed to take the next accounting class, and I hated that so much. It was just dull and boring. And I'm so glad that I got out of that because [laughs] I can't imagine doing anything like that. WILL: [laughs] KENT: But as part of switching over to business school, I discovered information systems. What's really cool about that is that we were doing Excel spreadsheets and building web pages. But it was all, like, with a practical application of business and, like, solving business problems. And then, I was like, oh, okay, so I can do stuff with computers in a practical setting, and that's what got me really interested. So, I switched, finally, to information systems–made it into that program. And I was still not convinced I wanted to do programming. I just wanted to work with computers. What ended up happening is the same time I got into the information systems program, I got married to my wife, and then I got this part-time job at a company called the More Good Foundation. It's a non-profit organization. And one of my jobs was to rip DVDs and upload those videos to YouTube, and then also download videos from one site and upload those to YouTube as well. And so, I was doing a lot of stuff with YouTube and video stuff. And as part of my information systems class, I was taking another Java class. At that same time, I was like, you know, what I'm doing at work is super boring. Like, can you imagine your job is to put in a [inaudible 13:45] and then click a couple of buttons? And, like, it was so boring and error-prone, too. Like, okay, now I've got to type this out and, you know, I got to make sure it's the same, try and copy-paste as much as I can. And it was not fun. And so, I thought, well, I'm pretty sure there are pieces of this that I could automate. And so, with the knowledge that I was getting in my information systems programming class, that was another Java class, I decided to write a program that automated a bunch of my stuff. And so, I asked my boss, like, "Can I automate this with writing software?" And I'm so glad that they said I could. WILL: [laughs] KENT: Because by the end of it, I had built software that allowed me to do way more than I ever could have before. I ended up uploading thousands of videos to their YouTube channels, which would have taken years to do. And they ended up actually being so happy with me. They had me present to the board of directors when they were asking for more money [laughs] and stuff. And it was really awesome. But still, I was not interested in being a programmer. Programming, to me, was just a means to an end. WILL: Oh, wow. KENT: Yeah, I guess there was just something in me that was like, I am not a programmer. So, anyway, further into the program of information systems, I interned as a business intelligence engineer over that next summer, and I ended up staying on there. And while I was supposed to be a business intelligence engineer, I did learn a lot about SQL, and star schema, and denormalized databases to optimize for read speed and everything. I learned a lot about that. But I just kept finding myself in positions where I would use my programming experience to automate things that were problematic for us in the business realm. And this was all still Java. It was there that I finally realized, you know what? I think I actually do want to be a programmer. I actually really do enjoy this. And I like that it's practical, and it makes sense for me, so… WILL: What year was that? KENT: That would have been 2012. Then I got a new job where my job was actually to be a programmer at a company called Domo, where they do business intelligence, actually. So, it got my foot in the door a little bit since I was a business intelligence engineer already. I got hired on, actually, as a QA engineer doing automated testing, but I never really got into that. And they shifted me over pretty quick into helping with the web app. And that is when I discovered JavaScript, and the whole, like, everything flooded out from there. I was like, wow, I thought I liked programming, but I had no idea how fun it could be. Because I felt like the chains had been broken. I no longer have to write Java. I can write JavaScript, and this was just so much better. WILL: [laughs] KENT: And so, yeah, I was there for a year and a half before I finally graduated. And I took a little break to work at USAA for a summer internship. And when I came back, I had another year and then converted to full-time. And so, yeah, there's my more detail than you were probably looking for, story of how I got into programming [laughs]. WILL: No, I actually love it because like I said, I've used your software, your teachings, all that. And it's amazing to hear the story of how you got there. Because I feel like a lot of times, we just see the end result, but we don't know the struggle that you went through of even trying to find your way through what your purpose was, what you're trying to do. Because, at one point, you said you were trying to do accounting, then you were trying to do something else. So, it's amazing to see, like, when it clicked for you when you got into JavaScript, so that's amazing. KENT: Yeah, it is kind of funny to think, like, some people have the story of, like, I knew I wanted to be a programmer from the very beginning, and it's just kind of funny for me to think back and, like, I was pretty certain I didn't want to be a programmer. WILL: [laughs] KENT: Like, not only did I, like, lots of people will say, "I never really thought about it, and then I saw it, and it was great." But I had thought about it. And I saw it, and I thought it was awful [laughter]. And so, yeah, I'm really glad that it worked out the way it did, though, because programming has just been a really fun thing. Like, I feel so blessed to be doing something that I actually enjoy doing. Like so many of our ancestors, they would go to work because they cared about their family and they just wanted to feed their family. I'm so grateful to them for doing that. I am so lucky that I get to go to work to take care of my family, but also, I just love doing it. WILL: Yeah, I feel the same way, so yeah, totally agree. After you found out about JavaScript, when did you figure out that you want to teach JavaScript? What was that transition like? KENT: I've been teaching for my whole life. It's ingrained in my religion. Even as a kid, you know, I'd prepare a talk, a five-minute talk, and stand up in front of 30 of my peers. And even when you're an early teenager, you get into speaking in front of the entire congregation. It took a while before I got good enough at something, enough hubris to think that people would care about what I have to say -- WILL: [laughs] KENT: Outside of my religion where, like, they're sitting there, and I've been asked to speak, and so they're going to listen to me. And so, when I started getting pretty good at programming, I decided, hey, I want to teach this stuff that I'm learning. And so, when I was still at school and working at Domo, the business intelligence company, one of our co-workers, Dave Geddes, he put together a workshop to teach AngularJS because we were migrating from Backbone to Angular. And I asked him if I could use his workshop material to teach my classmates. This was, like, soon after ng-conf, the first ng-conf, which my co-workers at Domo actually put on. So, I wasn't involved in the organization, but I was very much present when it was being organized. I attended there and developed a relationship with Firebase with the people there. I was actually...they had a developer evangelist program, which they called Torchbearers or something. And actually, that was my idea to call them Torchbearers. I think they wanted to call us torches, and I'm like, that just doesn't make sense. WILL: [laughs] KENT: I developed a relationship with them. And I asked them, "Hey, I want to teach my classmates AngularJS. Would you be interested in sponsoring some pizza and stuff?" And they said, "Yeah, we'll send you stickers, and hot sauce, and [laughs] a bunch of..." Like, they sent us, like, headphones [laughs] and stuff. So, I was like, sweet. I taught my classmates AngularJS in a workshop, brought a bunch of pizza, and it was, you know, just an extracurricular thing. And actually, the recording is still on my YouTube channel, so if you want to go look at one of my early YouTube videos. I was very into publishing video online. So, if you are diligent, you'll be able to find some of my very early [laughter] videos from my teenage years. But anyway, so, yes, I've been teaching since the very beginning. As soon as I graduated from college, I started speaking at meetups. I'd never been to a meetup before, and I just saw, oh, they want a speaker. I can talk about something. WILL: Wow. KENT: And not realizing that, like, meetups are literally always looking for speakers. This wasn't some special occasion. WILL: [laughs] KENT: And one of the meetups I spoke at was recorded and put on YouTube. And the guy who started Egghead io, John Lindquist, he is local here in Utah. And he saw that I spoke at that meetup, but he wasn't able to attend. So, he watched the recording, and he thought it was pretty good. He thought I would do a good job turning that into a video course. And that first video course paid my mortgage. WILL: Wow. KENT: And I was blown away. This thing that I had been doing just kind of for fun speaking at meetups, and I realized, oh, I can actually, like, make some legit good money out of this. From there, I just started making more courses on the side after I put the kids to bed. My wife is like, "Hey, I love you, but I want you to stay away for now because I've just been with these tiny babies all day. WILL: [laughs] KENT: And I just need some alone time." WILL: Yes. KENT: And so, I was like, okay. WILL: [laughs] KENT: I'll just go and work on some courses. And so, I spent a lot of time for the next couple of years doing course material on the side. I reached out to Frontend Masters and just told them, "Hey, I've been doing courses for Egghead." I actually met Marc Grabanski at a conference a couple of years before. And so, we established a little bit of relationship. And I just said, "Hey, I want to come and teach there." So, I taught at Frontend Masters. I started putting on my own workshops at conferences. In fact, just a few months after graduating, I got accepted to speak at a conference. And only after I was accepted did I realize it was in Sweden [laughter]. I didn't think to look where in the world this conference was. So, that was my first international trip, actually, and I ended up speaking there. I gave, actually, two talks. One of them was a three-hour talk. WILL: Whoa. KENT: Which was, yeah, that was wild. WILL: [laughs] KENT: And then, yeah, I gave a two-day workshop for them. And then, I flew straight from there to Amsterdam to give another talk and also do a live in-person podcast, which I'd been running called ngAir, an Angular podcast. It just kept on building from there until finally, I created testingjavascript.com. And that was when I realized, oh, okay, so this isn't just a thing I can use to pay my mortgage, and that's nice. This is, like, a thing I can do full-time. Because I made more with Testing JavaScript than I made from my PayPal salary. WILL: Oh wow. KENT: I was like, oh, I don't need both of these things. I would rather work half as much one full-time job; that's what I want, one full-time job and make enough to take care of my family. And I prefer teaching. So, that's when I left PayPal was when I released Testing JavaScript. WILL: Wow. So, for me, I think so many times the imposter syndrome comes up whenever I want to teach or do things at the level you're saying you're doing. Because I love teaching. I love mentoring. I remember when I came into development, it was hard. I had to find the right person to help me mentor. So now, I almost made a vow to myself that if someone wants to learn and they're willing to put in the energy, I'm going to sit down however long it takes to help them because I remember how hard it was for me whenever I was doing it. So, you said in 2014, you were only a couple years doing development. How did you overcome impostor syndrome to stand in front of people, teach, go around the world, and give talks and podcasts? Like, how did you do that portion? KENT: Part of it is a certain level of hubris like I said. Like, you just have to be willing to believe that somebody's going to care. You know, the other part of it is, it's a secret to getting really, really good at something. They sometimes will say, like, those who can't do teach. That's total baloney because it requires a lot of being able to do to get you in a position where you can teach effectively. But the process of teaching makes you better at the process of doing as well. It's how you solidify your experience as a whatever. So, if you're a cook, you're really good at that; you will get better by teaching other people how to cook. There's an element of selfishness in what I do. I just want to get really, really good at this, and so I'm going to teach people so that I can. So yeah, I think there's got to be also, like, a little bit of thick skin, too, because people are going to maybe not like what you have to share or think that you're posing or whatever. Learn how to let that slide off you a little bit. But another thing is, like, as far as that's concerned, just being really honest about what your skill set is. So, if somebody asks me a question about GraphQL, I'm going to tell them, "Well, I did use GraphQL at PayPal, but I was pretty limited. And so, I don't have a lot of experience with that," and then I'll answer their question. And so, like, communicating your limitations of knowledge effectively and being okay being judged by people because they're going to judge you. It just is the way it is. So, you just have to learn how to cope well with that. There are definitely some times where I felt like I was in over my head on some subjects or I was involved in a conversation I had no business being there. I actually felt that a lot when I was sent as PayPal's delegate to the TC39 meetings. Wow, what am I doing here? I've only been in the industry for, like, two or three years at [laughter] that point. It takes a certain level of confidence in your own abilities. But also, like, being realistic about your inexperience as well, I think, is important too. WILL: Yeah, I know that you had a lot of success, and I want to cover that next. But were there any failures when you were doing those teaching moments? KENT: Years ago, Babel was still a new thing that everybody was using to compile their JavaScript with new syntax features down to JavaScript that the browser could run. There was ES Modules that was introduced, and lots of us were doing global window object stuff. And then we moved to, like, defining your dependencies with r.js or RequireJS. And then, there was CommonJS, and Universal Module Definition, and that sort of thing. So, ECMAScript modules were very exciting. Like, people were really interested in that. And so, Babel added support to it. It would compile from the module syntax down to whatever you wanted: CommonJS or...well, I'm pretty sure it could compile to RequireJS, but I compiled it to CommonJS. And so, there was a...yeah, I would say it's a bug in Babel at that time, where it would allow you to write your ES modules in a way that was not actually spec-compliant. It was incorrect. So, I would say export default some object, and then in another module, I would say import. And then, I'd select properties off of the object that I exported, that default I exported. That was allowed by Babel, but it is superduper, not how ECMAScript modules work. Well, the problem is that I taught, like, a ton of people how to use ECMAScript modules this way. And when I realized that I was mistaken, it was just, like, a knife to the heart because I was, like, I taught so many people this wrong thing. And so, I wrote a blog post about it. I gave a big, long talk titled “More Than You Want to Know About ECMAScript Modules,” where I talk about that with many other things as well. And so, yeah, just trying to do my part to make up for the mistake that I made. So yes, I definitely have had mistakes like that. There's also, like, the aspect that technology moves at a rapid pace. And so, I have old things that I would show people how to do, which they still work just as well as they worked back then. But I wouldn't recommend doing it that way because we have better ways now. For some people, the old way to do it is the only way they can do it based on the constraints they have and the tools that they're using and stuff. And so, it's not, like, it's not valuable at all. But it is a struggle to make sure that people understand that, like, this is the way that you do it if you have to do it this way, but, like, we've got better ways. WILL: I'm glad you shared that because it helps. And I love how you say it: when I make a mistake, I own up to it and let everyone know, "Hey, I made a mistake. Let's correct it and move on." So, I really like that. KENT: Yeah, 100%. MID-ROLL AD: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it's easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn't looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops. WILL: I want to go back to what you were saying. When you left PayPal, you released Testing JavaScript. How did you come up with the idea to write a Testing JavaScript course? And, two, how long did it take to take off and be successful? KENT: That was a pretty special thing, honestly. In 2018, I had put together a bunch of workshops related to testing. There was this conference called Assert(js) that invited me to come, taught them. In the year prior, I went to Midwest JS and taught how to test React. I had this material about testing. I'd gotten into testing just because of open-source stuff. I didn't want to have to manually go through all my stuff again every time I wanted to check for breakages and stuff, so that got me into testing. And whatever I'm into is what I'm going to teach. So, I started teaching that testing. And then my friend, Ryan Florence, put together...he separated from Michael Jackson with React Training, and built his own thing called Workshop.me. He asked me to join up with him. And he would, like, put together these workshops for me, and I would just...my job was just to show up and teach. And so, I did that. I have a picture, actually, in this blog post, The 2010s Decade in Review, of me in front of 60 people at a two-day workshop at Trulia in San Francisco. WILL: Oh, wow. KENT: And this is where I was teaching my testing workshop. Well, what's interesting about that photo is that two weeks before that, I had gotten really frustrated with the tool that everybody uses or used at the time for testing React, and that was Enzyme. And so I was preparing this workshop or working on it. I had already delivered it a number of times, but I was working on it, improving it, as I always do [laughs] when I'm preparing. WILL: [laughs] KENT: I can never give the same workshop twice, I guess. And I was just so frustrated that Enzyme was so difficult to work with. And, like, I was going to prepare this document that said, "Here are all the things you should never do with Enzyme. Like, Enzyme encourages you to do these things; you should not do these things. And let me explain why." And I just hated that I needed a document like that. And so, I tweeted, "I'm seriously starting to think that I should make my own very small testing lib and drop Enzyme entirely. Most of Enzyme's features are not at all useful and many damaging to my test bases. I'd rather have something smaller that encourages better practices." And so, I tweeted that March 15th, 2018. I did that. I did exactly that. What I often do in my workshops is I try to build the abstraction that we're going to use so that you can use it better. So, I was, like, building Enzyme, and I realized the jump between what I had built, the little utilities that I had built as part of the workshop, from that to Enzyme was just a huge leap. And so, I thought, you know what? These utilities that I have built to teach Enzyme are actually really good. What if I just turned that into a testing utility? And that became Testing Library, which, fast forward to today, is the number one testing library for React. And it's recommended for testing React, and Vue, and Angular. The ideas that are in Testing Library got adopted by Playwright. If you're writing tests for anything in the browser, you are very likely using something that was either originally developed by me or inspired by the work that I did. And it all came from that testing workshop that I was working on. So, with that, I had not only that testing workshop; I had a number of other workshops around testing. And so I approached Joel Hooks from Egghead.io. I say, "Hey, I'm getting ready to record a bunch of Egghead courses. I've got, like, six or seven courses I want to do." And he'd seen my work before, you know, I was a very productive course creator. And he said, "Hey, how about we, you know, we've been thinking about doing this special thing. How about we make a website just dedicated to your courses?" And I said, "That sounds great." I was a little bit apprehensive because I knew that putting stuff on Egghead meant that I had, like, a built-in audience and everything that was on Egghead, so this would be really the first time of me just branching out with video material on my own. Because, otherwise, if it wasn't Egghead, it was Frontend Masters, and there was the built-in audience there. But yeah, we decided to go for it. And we released it in, I think, November. And it was that first week...which is always when you make the most is during the launch period. But that launch week, I made more than my PayPal salary for the entire year. And so, that was when I realized, oh, yeah, okay, let's go full-time on this because I don't need two PayPal salaries. I just need one. And then I can spend more time with my family and stuff. And especially as the kids are getting older, they're staying up later, and I want to hang out with them instead of with my computer at night [laughter], and so... WILL: I love how you explain that because I came in around 2018, 2019. And I remember Enzyme, and it was so confusing, so hard to work with, especially for, you know, a junior dev that's just trying to figure it out. And I remember Testing JavaScript and then using that library, and it was just so much easier to, like, grab whatever you needed to grab. Those utils made the biggest difference, and still today, they make a huge difference. So yes, I just resonate with what you're saying. That's amazing. KENT: Aw, thank you so much. WILL: Yeah. You did Testing JavaScript. And then what was your next course that you did? KENT: I quit PayPal, go full-time teaching. That first year, I actually did an update to Testing JavaScript. There were a couple of changes in Testing Library and other things that I needed to update it for. And then I started working on Epic React. So, while I was doing all this testing stuff, I was also very into React, creating a bunch of workshops around that. I was invited to speak all over the world to talk about React. And I had a couple of workshops already for React. So, I was invited to give workshops at these conferences about React. And so, I thought, you know, let's do this again, and we'll do it with React this time. The other thing was, I'd never really planned on being the testing guy. It just kind of happened, and I actually didn't really like it either. I wanted to be more broad than just testing. So, that kind of motivated me to say, hey, let's do something with React to be a little bit more broad. Yeah, so I worked on putting those workshops together and delivered them remotely. And then, yeah, COVID hit, and just really messed everything up [laughs] really bad. So, I had everything done on my end for Epic React by March of 2020, which is, like, immediately after COVID got started, in the U.S. at least. And so, yeah, then we actually didn't end up releasing Epic React until October that year, which, honestly [laughs], was a little bit frustrating for me because I was like, "Hey, guys, I have recorded all the videos and everything. Can we get this released?" But, like, that just was a really rough year for everybody. But yeah, so Egghead got the site put together. I did a bunch of interviews and stuff. And then we launched in October of 2020. That was way bigger than Testing JavaScript because Testing JavaScript was still very informed by my experience as an Egghead instructor, which, typically, the Egghead courses are, like, a video where watch me do this thing, and then you'll learn something and go apply it to your own stuff. And that's kind of what Testing JavaScript was built as. But as part of the update of Testing JavaScript in 2019, I added another workshop module called Testing Node Applications. And in that one, I decided, hey, typically, I would have a workshop version of my material and a course version. The workshop version had like instructions and exercises. And the course version was no instructions or anything. It was just, like, watch these videos. And it was just me doing the exercises. And with the update of Testing JavaScript, I added that Testing Node workshop, and I said, hey, what if we just, like, embrace the fact that these are exercises, and it's just, like, me recording the workshop? How I would deliver the workshop? And so, I tested that out, and that went really well. And so, I doubled down on that with Epic React. And I said, okay, now, this isn't just, like, watch these videos. This is a do the exercise and then watch me do the exercise. So, Epic React was not only a lot more material but the format of the material was more geared for retention and true practice and learning. And so, Epic React ended up doing much better than Testing JavaScript, and even still, is still doing a remarkable job as far as course material is concerned. And, like, so many people are getting a lot of really great knowledge from Epic React. So yeah, very gratifying to have that. WILL: Once again, I've used Epic React. It's taught me so many...stretched me. And I do like the format, so yes, I totally agree with that, yeah. The next thing, Remix, correct? KENT: Yeah. So, how I got into Remix, around the same time we finished recording Epic React videos, I was doing some other stuff kind of to keep content going and stuff while we were waiting to launch Epic React. And around that same time, my friend Ryan Florence and Michael Jackson––they were doing the React training thing. And so, we were technically competitors. Like I said, Ryan and I kind of joined forces temporarily for his Workshop Me thing, but that didn't end up working out very well. And Michael really wanted Ryan back, and so they got back together. And their React training business went way better than it had before. They were hiring people and all sorts of stuff. And then, a training business that focuses on in-person training just doesn't do very well when COVID comes around. And so, they ended up having to lay off everybody and tried to figure out, okay, now what are we going to do? Our income has gone overnight. This is a bit of a simplification. But they decided to build software and get paid for it like one does. So, they started building Remix. Ryan, actually, around that time, moved back to Utah. He and I would hang out sometimes, and he would share what he was working on with Michael. We would do, like, Zoom calls and stuff, too. I just got really excited about what they were working on. I could see the foundation was really solid, and I thought it was awesome. But I was still working on Epic React. I end up launching Epic React. He launches Remix the very next month as a developer preview thing. Yeah, it definitely...it looked a lot like current Remix in some ways but very, very different in lots of others. But I was super hooked on that. And so, I paid for the developer preview and started developing my website with it. And around the next year in August, I was getting close to finishing my website. My website is, like, pretty legit. If you haven't gone to kentcdodds.com. Yet, it is cooler than you think it is. There's a lot that goes into that website. So, I had a team help me with the product planning and getting illustrations and had somebody help me implement the designs and all that stuff. It was a pretty big project. And then, by August of 2021, Ryan and I were talking, and I said, "Hey, listen, I want to update Epic React to use Remix because I just think that is the best way to build React applications. But I have this little problem where Remix is a paid framework. That's just going to really reduce the number of people who are interested in learning what I have to teach. And on top of that, like, it just makes it difficult for people to test things out." And so, he, around that time, was like, "Hey, just hold off a little bit. We've got some announcements." And so, I think it was September when they announced that they'd raised VC money and they were going to make Remix open source. That was when Ryan said, "Hey, listen, Kent, I think that it's awesome you want to update Epic React to use Remix. But the problem is that Remix isn't even 1.0 yet. The community is super small. It needs a lot of help. If you release a course on Remix right now, then you're not going to get any attention because, like, nobody even knows what it is." So, part of me is like, yeah, that's true. But also, the other part of me is like, how do people find out what it is [laughs] unless there's, like, material about it? But he was right. And he said, "Listen, we've got a bunch of VC money. I've always wanted to work with you. How about we just hire you? And you can be a full-time teacher about Remix. But you don't have to charge anything. You just, like, make a bunch of stuff for free about Remix." I said, "That sounds great. But, you know, to make that worth my while because I'm really happy with what I'm doing with this teaching thing, like, I'm going to need a lot of Remix." And so, Michael Jackson was like, "How about we just make you a co-founder, and we give you a lot of Remix?" And I said, "Okay, let's do this." And so I jumped on board with them as a year-delayed co-founder. I guess that's pretty common. But, like, that felt kind of weird to me [laughs] to be called a co-founder. But yeah, so I joined up with them. I worked on documentation a little bit, mostly community building. I ran Remix Conf. Shopify was interested in what we were doing. And we were interested in what Shopify was doing because, at the time, they were working on Hydrogen, which was one of the early adopters of React Server Components. And, of course, everybody was interested in whether Remix was going to be adding support for server components. And Ryan put together a couple of experiments and found out that server components were nowhere near ready. And we could do better than server components could as of, you know, the time that he wrote the blog posts, like, two years ago. So, Hydrogen was working with server components. And I put us in touch with the Hydrogen team—I think it was me—to, like, talk with the Hydrogen team about, like, "Hey, how about instead of spending all this time building your own framework, you just build on top of Remix then you can, you know, make your Shopify starter projects just, like, a really thin layer on top of Remix and people will love it? And this is very important to us because we need to get users, especially really big and high profile users, so people will take us seriously." And so, we have this meeting. They fly a bunch of their people out to Salt Lake. They're asking us questions. We're asking them questions and saying, "Hey, listen, this is why server components are just not going to work out for you." Well, apparently, they didn't listen to us. It felt like they were just like, "No, we're highly invested in this. We've already sunk all this cost into this, but we're going to keep going." And they did end up shipping Hydrogen version 1 on top of server components, which I just thought was a big mistake. And it wasn't too long after that they came back and said, "Hey, we're kind of interested in having you guys join Shopify." So, right after Remix Conf, I go up into Michael's room at the hotel with Ryan. And they say, "Hey, listen, Kent, we're talking with Shopify about selling Remix and joining Shopify," and kind of bounced back and forth on whether we wanted to do it. All of us were just not sure. Because when I joined Remix, I was thinking, okay, we're going to build something, and it's going to be huge. This is going to be bigger than Vercel, like multibillion-dollar company. So, I really kind of struggled with thinking, hey, we're selling out. Like, we're just getting started here. So, Ryan and I ended up at RenderATL in Atlanta at that conference. We were both speaking there. And Ryan didn't fill out the right form. So, he actually didn't have a hotel room [laughs], and so he ended up staying in my room. I intentionally always get a double bedroom just in case somebody needs to stay with me because somebody did that for me once, and I just...it was really nice of them. So, I've always done that since. And so, I said, "Yeah, Ryan, you can stay with me." And so, we spent just a ton of time together. And this was all while we were trying to decide what to do with Shopify. And we had a lot of conversations about, like, what do we want for Remix in the future? And it was there that I realized, oh if I want to take this to, like, multi-billion dollar valuation, I've got to do things that I am not at all interested in doing. Like, you've got to build a business that is worth that much money and do business-related things. On top of all of that, to get any money out of it...because I just had a percentage of the company, not actually any money. There was no stock. So, the only way you can get money out of a situation like that is if you have a liquidation event like an IPO, which sounds, like, awful—I [laughs] would hate to go through an IP0—or you have to be bought. And if you're worth $2 billion, or 3, or whatever, who can buy you? There's almost nobody who can buy you at that valuation. Do you really want to outprice anybody that could possibly buy you? And then, on top of that, to get there, that's, like, a decade worth of your life of working really superduper hard to get to that point, and there's no guarantee. Ryan would always say a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. He was saying Shopify is a bird in the hand, and we do not know what the future holds. And so, we were all finally convinced that, yeah, we want to sell, and so we decided, yeah, let's sell. And as the sale date grew closer, I was getting excited because I was like, oh, I can be back on the TC39 because Shopify is, like, I don't know if they're actually sending delegates to the TC39, but I'm sure that they would be interested if I ask them to, like, "Hey, let's be involved in the evolution of JavaScript." And I know they're on the Web Working Group. Like, they're on a bunch of different committees and stuff. And I just thought it'd be really cool to get involved in the web platform again. And then, on top of that, I just thought, you know what? I'll just spend all my time teaching Shopify developers how to use Remix. That sounds like a lot of fun. As things drew closer, I got more and more uneasy about that. And I thought, you know, I could probably do just as well for myself by going full-time teacher again. I've done this thing before. I just really like being a teacher and, like, having total control over everything that I do. And if I work at Shopify, they're going to tell me, "Hey, you need to, like, do this, and that, and the other." And I don't know if I want to go back to that. And so, I decided, this is awesome. Super, super good job, folks. I think I've done everything for you that you need me to do. I'm going to bail out. And so, yeah, Shopify wasn't super jazzed about that. But the deal went through anyway. And that's how I ended my time at Shopify. WILL: I love it. It's lining up perfectly because you say you left Shopify to go back doing more teaching. And then you released another course; that's Epic Web, correct? KENT: Right. That was the reason I left Shopify or I didn't join up with Shopify is because I wanted to work on Epic Web. In this 2010s blog post, one of the last things that I mention...toward the bottom, there's a section, KCD EDU, which is basically, like, I wanted to help someone go from zero to my level as an engineer in a single place where I teach just all of the things that I can teach to get somebody there. And so I wanted to call it KCD EDU, but I guess you have to be an accredited university to get that domain or something. But that was the idea. Erin Fox, back in 2020 she said, "I'm expecting you to announce your online Kent C. Dodds engineering bootcamp." And I replied, "I'm planning on doing this, no joke." So, I've been wanting to do this for a really long time. And so, leaving Remix was like, yeah, this is what I'm going to go do. I'm going to go build KCD EDU. And I was talking with Ryan at some point about, like, what I was planning on doing in the future. And something he said or something I said in that conversation made me realize, oh, shoot, I want to build Epic Web Dev. So, I've got Epic React. I don't want Epic Remix. I want people to, like, be web developers. Remix is just, like, an implementation detail. And so, I went and I was relieved to find that the domain was still available: epicweb.dev, and so I bought that. And so, I was always planning on, like, even while I was at Remix, eventually, I would leave Remix and go build Epic Web Dev. So, that's what I did. Starting in August, I decided, okay, how about this: I will build a legit real-world web application, and then I will use that to teach people how to build legit real-world web applications from start to finish. If it's included as, like, knowledge you would need to build this web app, then that's knowledge you need to be able to build a full-stack application. That was the idea. So, I started live streaming in, like, August or September, and I would live stream almost everyday development of this web app. So, people can go and watch those on my YouTube channel. I would livestream for, like, sometimes six hours at a time with breaks every 45 minutes. So, I'd just put it on a break slide, go for a quick walk, or take a drink, whatever, and then I would come back. And I would just, like, so much development and live streaming for a long time. Once I got, like, in a pretty good place with that, the app I was building was called Rocket Rental. It's like Airbnb for rocket ships. So, you could rent, like, your own rocket ship to other people to fly. So, it had to be, like, realistic enough that, like, you could relate it to whatever you were building but not realistic enough that people would actually think it was a real product [laughs]. I worked with Egghead again. They actually have a sister company now called Skill Recordings that's responsible for these types of products. And so, I was working with Skill Recordings on, like, they would get me designs. And then I would, like, work with other people to help implement some of those designs. And then, I started working on turning this stuff into workshops. And with Epic React, we have this workshop app that you run locally so that you can work in your own editor, in your own environment, and with your own editor plugins and all that stuff. I want you to practice the way that you're going to actually exercise that practice when you're done––when you're working at work. And so we have this workshop app with Epic React. Well, that was built with Create React app, very limited on what you could do. And so, I started working on a new workshop app that I just called KCD Shop, that was built with Remix. And so, now we've got a bunch of server-side stuff we can do. And this server side is running on your machine. And so, so much stuff that I can do with this thing. One of the big challenges with Epic React was that the video you watch is on epicreact.dev, but the exercises you run are on localhost. And so, you have to keep those things in sync. You'd see, okay, I'm in exercise one on the videos. Let me go find exercise one in the app and then find the file exercise one. So, you've got, like, three different things you've got to keep in sync. And so, with the workshop app for Epic Web, I said, how about we make it so that we can embed the video into the app? And so, you just have localhost running, and you see the video right above the instructions for the exercise. And so, you watch the video that kind of introduces the problem that you're going to be doing, and then you read the instructions. And then we can also make it so that we have links you can click or buttons you can click in the app that will open your editor exactly where you're supposed to go. So you don't have to keep anything in sync. You go to the app, and you watch the video. You read the instructions. You click this button. It opens your editor. And so, that's exactly what I did. And it's an amazing experience. It is phenomenal, not just for the workshop learners but for me, as a workshop developer, like, creating the workshop––it's just been phenomenal. Because, like, we also have this diff view where you can see the difference between your work in progress and the solution. So, if you get stuck, then it's very easy to see where you went wrong. It also means that we can build even very large applications as part of our workshop and our exercise where there are dozens or hundreds of files. And you don't have to worry about finding them because it'll tell you exactly which ones you need to be working in, so all sorts of really, really cool things. So, this workshop app––actually, took a lot of time and effort to build. But now that it's done, like, people are going through it now, and they're just loving it. So, I built the workshop app, I put the first workshop of Rocket Rental into this workshop app, and I delivered it. And I found out very quickly that a full application with all the bells and whistles you'd expect, like, tons of different routes and stuff, was just too much. Even with the workshop app, it was just really pretty difficult for people to gain enough context around what they were building to be effective. So, I was concerned about that. But then, around the same time, I started realizing that I had a marketing problem. And that is that with Testing JavaScript, people know that they're customers because they're like, I'm a JavaScript developer, and I know how to test––boom. I'm a Testing JavaScript customer. With Epic React, I join this company; they're using React; I need to know React, boom. I'm a customer of Epic React. But with something like Epic Web, it's just so broad that, like, yeah, I am a web developer. I just don't know if I'm a customer to Epic Web. Like, is Epic Web for only really advanced people, or is it only for really beginner people? Or is it only for people who are using this set of tools or... Like, it's just a very difficult thing to, like, identify with. And so I wanted to de-emphasize the fact that we used Remix because the fact is that you can walk away from this material and work in a Next.js app or a SvelteKit app and still use so much of the knowledge that you gained in that environment. So, I didn't want to focus on the fact that we're using any particular set of tools because the tools themselves I select them, not only because I think that they are really great tools but also because the knowledge you gain from these tools is very transferable. And I'm going to teach it in a way that's very transferable. That was the plan. But I still had this issue, like, I need people to be able to identify themselves as customers of this thing. So, what I decided to do through some, like, hints and inspiration from other people was how about I turn Rocket Rental into a much simpler app and make that a project starter? And while I was at Remix, actually, I directed the creation of this feature called Remix Stacks. It's basically the CLI allows you to create a Remix app based on a template. I said I can make a Remix Stack out of this, and I called it the Epic Stack. And so, just took all of the concepts that came from Rocket Rental; applied it to a much simpler app. It's just a note-taking app, but it has, like, all of the features that you would need to build in a typical application. So, it's got a database. It's got deployment, GitHub integration. So, you have GitHub Actions to run tests and stuff. It has the tests. It has authentication already implemented, and even two-factor auth, and third-party auth, and file upload, and, like, just tons and tons of stuff built in. And so, people can start a new project and ship that and have a lot of success, like, skip all the basic stuff. So, I presented that at Remix Conf. I wasn't working at Remix anymore, but they asked me to run Remix Conf again, so I did. And I told them, "If I'm running it this year, I'm going to select myself to speak." And I spoke and introduced the Epic Stack there. And then that was when I started to create the workshops based on the Epic Stack. And so, now it was no longer we're going to have workshops to build Rocket Rental; it was we're going to have workshops to build the Epic Stack, with the idea being that if you build the thing, you are able to use it better, like, still following the same pattern I did with Testing JavaScript where we build a framework first. Like, before you start using Jest, we're building Jest and same with Testing Library. We do the same thing with React. Before we bring in React, I teach you how to create DOM nodes yourself and render those to the page and all of that. And so, here with Epic Web, I'm going to teach you how to build the framework that you can use to build applications. So, that is what Epic Web is, it's effectively we're building the Epic Stack. In the process, you learn all about really basic things, like, how do you get styles onto the page all the way to really complex things like, how do you validate a user's email? Or how do you implement two-factor auth? Or how do you create a test database? So, you don't have to mock out the database, but you can still run your test in isolation. Around this time was when my wife and I were trying to become pregnant. And we got the news that we were expecting, and we were super excited. And so, I'm thinking, okay, I've got to ship this thing before the baby comes. Because who knows what happens after this baby comes? So, I am talking with Skill Recordings. I'm saying, "We've got to get this done by October." I think it was May. And so, I was thinking like, okay, I've probably got, like, maybe eight days worth of workshops here. And so, kind of outlined all of the workshops. Like, I know what needs to be included. I know what the end looks like because I've got the Epic Stack. The end is the Epic Stack. The beginning is, like, a brand new create Remix app creation right there. So, I know what the start and the end looks like. I kind of can figure out how much time I need to teach all of that. And I said, "Let's do eight days." And so, we got that scheduled and started selling tickets. And we sold out 30 tickets in just a couple of days, and that's what we originally planned for. I'm like, well, gosh, I can handle 80 people in a workshop. I've done that before, but that's about as far as I go. I don't really like going that much. In fact, online, especially, I only like to go up to, like, 40. But we said, "Hey, let's knock this out of the park." So, we doubled it, and we sold another 30 seats. And so, it was sold out before even the early bird sale was over. So, that was pretty encouraging. The problem was that I hadn't actually developed this material. I'd already given one workshop about testing with Rocket Rental, and I'd given one workshop about the fundamentals with Rocket Rental. But I hadn't done anything of the authentication or, the forms, or data modeling. Also, like, Epic Notes app is different from Rocket Rental. So, I got to rebuild those workshops. Like, the first workshop was going to start in, like, two weeks, maybe three weeks. And so, I'm working on these workshops. And I'm like, I've finished the first workshop, which was going to be a two-day workshop, and so I get that done. And so, that next week, I'm getting close to finished on the forms workshop, and then I start the workshops. And that was when I started to realize, oh, shoot, I am in huge trouble because I have to not only deliver two workshops a week, so that's two days a week that I'm not able to work on the workshops, really. And then also develop the material as I go, which I don't normally do this at all because I just don't like stressing myself out so much. But, like, I'd had this timeline put together, and I'm like, I need to ship this by October. For about five weeks, I worked 80 to 100 hours a week, maybe more, in a row to get those workshops created [laughs]. And I do not recommend this, and I will never do it again. I can tell you this now. I didn't tell anybody at the time because I was worried that people would think, well, geez, is that the type of product you create, like, you're just rushing through this stuff? But I can tell you this safely now because the results speak for themselves. Like, these people loved this stuff. They ate it up. It was so good. I won't do this again. It's not something that I typically do. But it worked. And, like, I put in a crazy amount of work to make this work. People loved it. And yeah, I'm really, really happy with that. The next step, though, so it was eight days' worth of workshops in four weeks. And I realized, as I almost always realize when I'm presenting workshops, that, like, oh my gosh, I have way more material than I have time for. So, by

Jamon Holmgren is the founder of Infinite Red, a consultancy specializing in React Native. He discusses his journey and insights into technology and leadership and highlights how Infinite Red stands as a testament that businesses can be run ethically while still achieving success. The conversation shifts to leadership styles and the principle of "one-minute praise" from the book "One Minute Manager." Both Jamon and Will agree that acknowledging others' efforts openly can make a significant difference, enhancing leadership skills and building stronger relationships. Will points out how this simple principle has been a game-changer for him in various aspects of life, including his personal relationships. Towards the end, the focus turns to motivation and long-term strategy. Jamon is driven by his enthusiasm for learning and the thrill of tackling diverse challenges in his consultancy work. He also shares his philosophy of keeping the company "10 degrees above the horizon," emphasizing steady, sustainable growth rather than erratic leaps and bounds. Infinite Red (https://infinite.red/) Follow Infinite Red on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/infinitered/), X (https://twitter.com/infinite_red), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwpSzVt7QpLDbCnPXqR97-g), GitHub (https://github.com/infinitered), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/infiniteredinc/), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/infinitered_designers/). Follow Jamon Holmgren on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamonholmgren/) or X (https://twitter.com/jamonholmgren). Visit his website at jamon.dev (https://jamon.dev/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. And with me today is Jamon Holmgren, Co-Founder and CTO of Infinite Red, a software consulting agency that specializes in React Native. Jamon, thank you for joining me. JAMON: Yeah. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. WILL: So, Jamon, what's going on in your life? How's everything going? JAMON: You know, things have been obviously very busy, like, I guess, pretty much everybody. You know, school has started. I have four kids, so that keeps me quite busy, going to various school events, going to volleyball, you know, bringing kids here and there, running the company. I have some side projects I'm doing. I am playing hockey. So, it just seems like every waking hour is filled with something. [laughter] WILL: I totally understand that. I have three kids of my own. So, they're a little bit younger than yours, so mine is 4, 3, and, like, 17 months, so... JAMON: Okay. Yeah, so you're just getting started. And you're doing all of the, like, physical labor associated with being a parent. WILL: Yes, yes, yes. So, I want to start there. Tell me a little bit about your kids. I know their ages are 10 to 18. JAMON: Yeah, so I have a boy, Cedric. He's actually a programmer as well. He's just starting his career. He is the oldest, and then we have three girls. We have a 15-year-old who's a sophomore in high school. And then we have a 12-year-old who's in middle school and a 10-year-old who is in fifth grade in elementary school. And it's a lot. My wife and I both came from very large families, so we're kind of used to it. And it's a lot of fun. A lot of challenges at this age, I mean, teenagers especially, you know, as they kind of all come into that same era, you know, it's more of a challenge. I guess the thing that I think about it is a lot of the skills that I learned as a young kid parent don't really translate super well to being a teenager parent. And I'm having to learn a lot of new skills. And I actually talked to a guy the other day. His kids are, I think, 32 and 28, or something like that. And he said, "Yeah, the learning never stops." [laughs] WILL: So, I'm going to ask you for the secret sauce because I'm still in the temper tantrums and those type of emotions and stuff. So, how is it different in the teenage years from the temper tantrums? JAMON: Well, I think that they can act like adults in a lot of cases, and you start thinking of them as adults, and you start developing a relationship there. But their brains are also not fully developed. And so, they will also do things that are very inexplicable, like, you'll just be like, why? Why would this be a thing? Like, I don't get it. Like, you act like an adult for half the time, and then the other half, you act like a kid. Navigating that, and the fact that they change all the time, and all the other challenges. And they're all different. Like, if we had only had one kid, you know, my boy was pretty easy. He was pretty straightforward. It would have been like, well, shoot, being a parent is pretty easy. Like, I don't know what everybody else is complaining about. Like, he never did tantrums. He was just a really quiet, you know, like, well-behaved kid and kind of went through life like that. But then, obviously, developing a relationship with him is more of the challenge because he's quieter, where with my girls, it's easier to develop the relationship, but then you [laughs] deal with a lot more volatility as well. So, they're all different. Every kid's different. It's hard to really apply that directly. I would say that the thing that I've learned the most in the last few years is just kind of continuing to be, like, even through some of the tougher times, continuing to be there, continuing to develop that relationship. A lot of times, it feels like you're not getting anywhere, but you are. It is actually happening. You just don't see it until later. WILL: I'm writing that down. That's great advice [laughter]. You mentioned hockey. Tell me about it. I've never played hockey. I grew up in the South, so we didn't have that. So, tell me about it. And you're a goalie also, correct? JAMON: Yeah, I play goalie. I didn't discover hockey...I played basketball in high school. I played four years of high school basketball. I even played a little bit at college. And I didn't really discover hockey until I moved to Southwest Washington, about an hour away from where I grew up in the coast of Oregon. When I got there, a lot of my friends that I made were playing hockey. And one friend, in particular, he was a goalie, and he had grown up in Upper Michigan. So, you know, like, he grew up playing hockey. He was a very good skater and things like that. But there was one weekend I was coming to watch him play just rec hockey. And he's like, "You know what? I can't make it. Would you want to jump in and, like, be my sub?" And it was just a pick-up game. So, it wasn't like there was anything on the line. And I was like, "All right, I'll give it a try." You know, put on the gear. He showed me what to do to put on the gear. He kind of gave me some tips. Like, in the living room where we were, he was, like, showing me how to play. We were, like, I would say, 19, I think. Nineteen years old, something like that. Anyway, I show up, and I put on the gear, and I go out there. And I actually had a decent game, considering I barely knew how to skate and barely knew how to do anything. But I'm kind of big; I'm six foot four, almost six foot five. And having all that gear and everything, I filled up a lot of the net. And it wasn't a very high-level game, so I did pretty well. And after that, the team was like, "Well, we'd love to have you back." And then my friend really was not interested in continuing, so he was like, "You can have it, like, just roll with it." I kept playing for about three years, and then, I don't know, I took over a decade off. The team dissolved. It wasn't even a league team. It was just, you know, pick-up hockey. And then a friend called me and was like, "Hey, I'm starting up a game. It's going to be Finnish Americans," because I'm half-Finnish myself. "So, it's going to be all Finnish Americans. We're going to call it the [Foreign language]," which is the Finnish boys in sort of Finnish. It's not exactly supposed to be like that in Finnish. Anybody listening who's Finnish is going to be like, "Yeah, that's bad Finnish." But it kind of means Finnish boys or Finland boys. And we put together the team, and I've been playing for the last three-plus years. It's been kind of, like, a rec league team. We've won the championship four times, which was really fun. This year, I'm actually playing in two leagues. I'm playing in rec league, and I'm also playing the next league up, so a little bit faster, better skaters, better shooters, things like that. And I just love it. It's so much fun. WILL: Wow, that's amazing that you started later and that you're still playing it. Because when I look at hockey, I'm like, that's really hard. I don't know if I could do that. I can skate. I can't stop. JAMON: [laughs] WILL: Like, I can get a lot of speed [laughs]. But it's just something about turning sideways and thinking I'm going to fly over the skates. JAMON: [laughs] WILL: And yeah, it's a whole thing [laughs]. Is goalie harder than playing any of the other positions? JAMON: I would say it's different. Like, I don't have to be as good of a skater, you know, things like hockey stops are still not supernatural for me. I don't skate backwards super-fast. You know, I'm not a fast skater in general. But the difference is, of course, you have to be reading the flow of the game. You have to know the body language of the players that are coming at you. You have to kind of see what's happening. At the end of the day, lots of things can happen, so you try to put yourself in the best position. It's a lot of, like, positional, like, where are you in the net? What does your position look like? And then, once they shoot, how do you react? Are you dropping down, or are you staying up? Are you using your glove? Are you using your blocker? Are you just trying to block with your body using your stick? Then, once the puck hits you, then what do you do? How do you control the rebound? Are you trying to cover it up and ice the puck so they do a face-off? Are you trying to kick it out to one of your skaters? And then, once that happens, you have a little bit of a rest, hopefully, while they're down on the other side. But you're continually alert and watching to see what's going to develop because it could be a breakaway. And then it's just you and the skater and trying to anticipate what they're doing and try to make it so that they have to make a play. Like, just be big, be in position. Don't get out of position. Don't make a mistake. And I've had really great games where I've, you know, had 45 shots on me, and I've only let one in or something like that. And I've had some bad games too. I know there's one game in a championship where they only had six shots on me. But we ended up losing because I let in two, so that was not a fun game. I only had six opportunities, and I failed on two of them. But that happens, and so you just have to be mentally tough. WILL: Wow, that's amazing. The limited knowledge of hockey...I'm going to assume here, so I hope it's right. With you being 6'4, 6'5, I'm guessing that the five-hole, if I'm correct, was probably your toughest position to defend. JAMON: You know, you would think so. And just for the audience, the five-hole is, like, between your legs, you know, the puck going between your legs underneath. But I play a style...a little bit older style of goalie because that's what I watched. You know, in, like, the early 2000s, I watched Patrick Roy of the Colorado Avalanche, one of the greatest goalies of all time, and he played what's called a butterfly style. So, as the play develops, you're standing, but then you go down fairly early, and you're protecting the bottom. You have your stick in front of you protecting the five-hole, and you have your legs, you know, spread out. So, I used my height really more for blocking as I'm down rather than standing because when I'm standing, I'm above the net. It's better for me to get down. And I think that that's worked out pretty well. You know, Patrick Roy was a pretty big goalie as well. Most modern goalies play a more hybrid style. But, you know, we could get into all that. I'm a big kind of hockey nerd in this way. But that's what I do. I play butterfly, so most of the time, people don't beat me five-hole; when they do, it's usually they're picking a corner. WILL: Wow. Now that you've painted the picture, I can see how that's smart because you do have the goal, I mean, the gloves plus the stick and then your height. Yeah, I can see how...that's smart. That's very smart [laughs]. JAMON: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's kind of the goal. And also, because I wasn't a great skater, it sort of played into it as well, playing down on the ice where I was just more comfortable that way. It's worked out. I've had a pretty decent record over my career here [laughs]. WILL: That's awesome. Well, let's transition a little bit into consultant agencies. You've been doing it for 18 years. Tell me about that. How did you get started? JAMON: Well, when I started, I was working in construction. I was working for a home builder. And, you know, everybody I knew pretty much worked in construction, including my dad, who owned a business. And I went on my own. I had always dreamed of owning my own business, but I didn't start really thinking about websites. I was coding. I loved coding, and I was coding since I was 12. So, when I got to 23 years old, I thought, I'll start a business, and I'll do home design because that's what I was doing for the builder was, I was drawing homes. I was designing homes and remodels and things like that. And so, I started it doing that. But I also needed a little bit extra work. I didn't have enough work. Like, I had people, you know, sending me work, you know, home design and whatnot, but I didn't have quite enough. So, I would also build websites on the side, PHP and HTML, MySQL, and JavaScript. And I just sort of continued to do that. But in 2008, there was the housing crisis, and all of the design work for homes just dried up. There wasn't much there. In fact, it actually really dried up in 2007 because things kind of started a little early for designers. And so, I was like; I got to do something to stay busy. I've got a wife. I've got a young kid (Actually, at that point, I had two kids.), and I need to make sure that I'm staying busy. And so, I really ramped up trying to find work, you know, as a programmer, as a web developer. And there were plenty of companies at that time that were really trying to drum up business. So, they were putting money into their websites trying to get new projects, and they were all construction companies. And so, that's how I started. And I started doing more things like internal web apps for managing orders and managing sales leads, and that sort of thing. And that led me into web apps and eventually to Ruby on Rails, which became sort of my bread and butter for a while. As I was doing Ruby on Rails, you know, obviously, the iPhone was out, but the iPad came out. And I was more of an Android guy at that point. But I bought an iPad because it looked really cool, and my dad had one. When I started playing around with it, I'm like, I need to build apps for this. This is super cool. So, I took some Stanford courses online, which you could do back in those days, iTunes U, and learned how to use Objective-C. This was previous to Automatic Reference Counting and stuff. So, you had to manage your own memory, and this was a lot of manual work; very different environment than JavaScript, and PHP, and Ruby. But I actually enjoyed it quite a bit and then eventually transitioned into React Native later. But really, getting over to mobile and that sort of thing was...once I found mobile, I really didn't want to do web anymore. Mobile is what I really enjoy doing. WILL: Wow, I love that. If I'm following you correctly, you said in 2007, that's kind of when everything dried up. So, you were almost forced to find something different, correct? JAMON: Yeah, that's right. I mean, I kind of sat around feeling sorry for myself for a while. And then I was like, well, it's my business. I got to figure out what to do. It's not anybody else's fault. Like, you know, it doesn't matter that this is forces out of my control. I do have control. I have the ability to go in there and figure out, okay, what do I do next? Well, I know how to program, and it seems like people want me to program. So, let's lean into that. WILL: Wow. I love that. Because it's funny, that's how I got started in programming. I lost my job. And I was working at Buckle, the clothing store. If you know me, that is not me at all, like, at all [laughter]. I love gym shorts and athletic clothes. Like, fashion is not my thing. It's just not. So [laughs], I got into programming because I was just struggling. And it was a very pivotal moment in my life. And I'm thankful that I lost my job. Losing your job is just hard, and I think it makes you rethink things. JAMON: Yeah, absolutely. It was a growth moment for me as well, one of many. But that was definitely a point that I look back on and say, I mean because I can actually point at almost the day when it all dried up. It was, like, April 2007. And my uncle had been sending me a lot of work, you know, he had extra work. He didn't have barely enough for himself anymore at that point. And I finished up my last project, and he's like, "I don't have anything else." And I had some other clients as well and called them up, and they were like, "No, we don't have anything. Like, nobody is buying right now." And it just kept going like that. And it was weird because 2005, 2006, most of 2007, it felt like things were really rolling, but it just dried up all at once. And so, I was really lucky that I did end up getting a bunch of web work to do in 2008. I was still doing home design till probably late 2008, 2009. But then I eventually just hung that up and was like, okay, this is over. I'm definitely focusing on programming. WILL: Wow, how was the initial traction when you moved into ramping up the web development? JAMON: It was really good because it didn't take much to keep me busy. And I ended up getting some big contracts from, like, a cabinet manufacturer was a big one. I did some other things as well. And I ended up hiring my first employees in 2009. So, really, less than two years later, I was starting to hire employees. And I just hired, like, junior developers who had barely learned to code and taught them to code. So, I hired probably, over the years, next few years, like, ten programmers, many of whom are actually still with me today, and I taught them to code back in the day. And as time went on, they became senior and really high-level programmers who are now leading projects for big companies that you've heard of. But they started with me building, you know, PHP and MySQL and whatnot for small, like, regional construction companies. And we learned together. So, it was definitely a progression you can go look back and see. WILL: Yeah, I saw a tweet that you tweeted, and I loved it because I totally understand. JAMON: [laughs] WILL: And so, I'm glad you mentioned the junior devs and stuff. The tweet that I'm talking about was, "I got into this industry to code; ended up becoming a founder because I was the only person who would hire me." JAMON: [laughs] WILL: I want to ask you about that. [laughter] JAMON: Yeah, it's really that I grew up in a small logging town, like, very tiny logging town in Northwest Oregon. I didn't know...I knew one programmer, and the guy was, like, an incredible genius. And I just thought that that was the only way that you could professionally be a programmer was to be an incredible genius. I was coding, but I was, like, coding games, you know, in QBasic. And so, for me, every time I looked around, it was just, like, construction, or logging or, you know, blue collar, like, working at a mill. Like, these were the things that I saw around me. And so, that was the path I went. And I didn't really think of using this passion that I had for coding to turn it into, like, actual money. And when I did start thinking about it, I was like, I don't know anybody who does software. Like, even when I moved to Southwest Washington, I was closer to Portland. But I thought you had to have a CS degree, and I didn't have a CS degree. So, I was like, okay, well, I'll start my own business then, and that will be the thing that kind of leads me into tech. And that's what ended up happening. And it's kind of funny because I did go to, you know, one semester of community college for basketball and for...until I got cut. And then I studied some things there. But I never finished for the community college. What's kind of cool, though, is today, I'm actually on their, like, tech advisory committee. Like, they actually have me advising their professors on the current state of tech, which is kind of cool. WILL: Wow, that is really cool. It is interesting because I remember when I first started out and that feeling of probably over 300 applications just trying to get a job. And it was just hard. And my first job, to be honest, I think it was because of networking is why I got the job. If I didn't know the person that introduced me to the company, I probably wouldn't have gotten the job, if I'm being honest. But I am very sympathetic for junior devs anytime. If a junior dev asks me a question, I will take time, help them out. Because I remember...it's very hard as a junior dev trying to get that first job. So, when you said that, I was like, yeah, I can see your heart towards junior devs. JAMON: Absolutely. That's where I started. You know, the first developers that I hired were all juniors. We don't hire juniors anymore because of the style of business that we are. But I miss that. I miss that to some degree. We really can't. And we've looked at it from just about every angle. But I did my time [laughs]. I spent a lot of hours teaching junior developers when I could have done it quicker myself. WILL: Definitely. Like, you end up losing some money when you do a junior dev and you're hiring for the future. So, like, in a consultant agency, I totally understand that, yeah. JAMON: Yeah, absolutely. MID-ROLL AD: Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build, and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future. thoughtbot Liftoff brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices. Make the right decisions for tomorrow today. Get in touch at thoughtbot.com/liftoff. WILL: So, I want to ask you about the transition from ClearSight Studio to Infinite Red. How did that happen? JAMON: ClearSight was my first company. And it sort of evolved from being a, you know, a home design/website company to just a website and web app company, and then mobile apps. And, at a certain time, we had, I think, around 12 employees, something like that. I had a design department. We were building websites and whatnot. And I was really interested in iOS development. That was really my passion. And so I actually ended up working on some open source with iOS developers across the globe and then got invited to a conference down in San Francisco in 2014. And I went and gave a talk there. It was my first tech conference that I'd ever been to, much less given a talk, and I was the first talk [laughs]. So, that was kind of an interesting little anecdote there. And as I did it, I got to know some other developers. I had one in particular, Todd Werth, who I really hit it off with, and we ended up chatting a lot after the conference. And it felt like he and I had a very similar outlook. And he had an iOS agency. That's all they did. Well, 2015 rolls around, and I had had some rough times toward the end of 2014 in terms of the business, and I was kind of complaining to Todd. He had had some issues as well, and we started commiserating. And he's like, you know, he just started joking. I still have this conversation in Slack way back if I go look. And he's like, "Well, maybe we should just merge our businesses together," because it felt like we had maybe complementary skills. And we had a similar outlook on what we wanted from our businesses. And so, we ended up eventually solidifying that. I flew down there, talked to him and his business partner, Ken, at the time. We ended up making that happen later that year. So, just a few days ago, October 1st was our eighth anniversary running the companies, running the new company, the merged company, which is Infinite Red. So, that was kind of how that all came together. Eventually, Ken left, and we had a new business partner who was our top employee buy-in; that's Gant Laborde. And so, there are still three owners. We have three directors and then the rest of the team. We're about 30 people altogether, and we focus entirely on React Native. WILL: Wow, congratulations on eight years. That's a lot. That's amazing. JAMON: Yeah, thank you. I was just thinking the other day that I ran ClearSight for ten years. Infinite Red is getting close to how long I ran my first business. And, like, my youngest is, like I said, 10. So she was only two years old when I merged the company. She does not remember my old company, which is weird to me. [laughter] WILL: Wow. So, can you walk me through your decision to go here with React Native and specialize in that? Because it sounds like right around the time when React Native was created, and people started using it in production. JAMON: That's right. The iOS technology that we had sort of bonded over at that conference was called RubyMotion. But in 2015, the founder ended up going to work for Microsoft for a while and then went back to Apple. He had been from Apple before. So, it was sort of going down. And we were looking for a different technology, both of our companies were, and then, of course, the merged company. React Native looked interesting, but it didn't have an Android version yet. But then, in September of 2015, Android came out, so it was iOS and Android. So, we were able to take a look at that one month before we ended up solidifying the actual merger. So, basically, day one, October 1st, 2015, we were, like, we are now doing React Native for mobile, but we kept doing web. We kept doing Ruby on Rails. We did some Elixir. We did some Elm. We did some...I think we had some old Ember stuff going on. We had all kinds of things going on. But over time, we got more and more traction with React Native because that's really where our interest was. And so, we ended up saying, okay, well, this is where we really want to be. It took us a few years. It took us probably five years, six years, something like that, to really develop the confidence to say, "Hey, this is all we want to do," because it's a risk. Like, you put yourself on one technology. We had that before with the other technology that went down. But we had the confidence that we knew we could step off of a sinking ship onto another one if we needed to. So, we said, "You know what? Let's do this." And I got to give my co-founder, Todd, a lot of credit because he was the first one to say, "Let's go all React Native. Anywhere that React Native is, React Native is on a lot of different platforms. You can do tvOS. You can do Mac. You can do Windows. You can do web with React Native web, all kinds of things. So, let's just focus on React Native. Our team will just focus on that. We will only hire React Native developers. All of our marketing is going to be around React Native. Let's just focus on that." And it ended up being a great call. We did that. We made that happen. And for probably the last, I would say, three, four years, something like that, that's all we've been doing. WILL: So, what's your opinion on, I guess, the argument that's being held right now with native iOS and Android, even the Flutter, and I think Ionic is the other one that I've heard of, versus React Native? What's your pitch on React Native over those? JAMON: There's definitely reasons to use any of those. But I wrote this article a while back. It was specifically about Flutter, but I think it applies to a lot of the other competitors as well. The title of the article was provocatively titled, "Flutter Is Better Than React Native in All the Ways That Don't Matter." And the idea behind this is that, yes, Flutter gets a lot of things very right. A lot of their developer experience is actually better than React Native; some is worse, but, you know, some is better. But really, when it comes down to it, the things that matter are more business level. React Native is good enough. It's like native views. So, you have the native performance. With Hermes, you have really good performance in JavaScript. So, you know that you can get really high-level JavaScript performance. You can ship JavaScript, which really helps because then you can bring in JavaScript developers, and specifically React developers. So, a lot of companies already use React. It's a no-brainer to then use React Native if you're already using React Web. It doesn't really make sense to go to Flutter. It makes maybe some sense to write it in native, but then you have to write it twice. And you have three teams. You have a web team. You have an iOS team, and you have an Android team. And you also have three codebases, and one's always lagging behind. That's always what's happening. Marketing is like, "Okay, when can we announce this?" "Well, iOS isn't done," or "Android is not done," or "Web is not done." Where if you can combine all of those things and combine just the culture of your team, then it becomes more tight-knit because everybody's working on all aspects at one time. You can take a feature, and you can build it in web, and you can build it in iOS, and you can build it Android with all the same skills. Now, there are some deeper parts of React Native. It goes really deep. But in terms of just being productive out of the gate, a React developer can be productive in week one, and that's, I think, a huge deal. So, it really comes down to is the performance and developer experience good enough? And the answer is absolutely yes. And then, secondly, like, what's the business case for React Native? Well, you can have the same developers doing iOS, Android, and web, and even if you don't, you can share techniques. You can be like, "Hey, here's this cool JavaScript thing," and the Kotlin developers aren't just like, "Ugh, you know, JavaScript." Or you can be like, "Hey, here's our TypeScript configuration across the whole codebase." You can even have a monorepo with everything in it. It just makes a lot of sense that way. And especially now with Expo, it makes it even more that way because Expo removes a lot of the barriers for web developers that they would have coming into native. So, with that in mind, I still see React Native dominating the apps that are at the top of the App Store. One of the Expo developers, Evan Bacon, has put out a bunch of tweets about, you know, like, 24 out of the top 100 food and drink apps are written in React Native, as opposed to 8 in all the other options combined other than native, you know. So, it gives a good sense that React Native is still growing and continuing to. It has a lot of steam behind it. WILL: Yeah, I totally agree with you. I'm a big React Native fan, and I do a lot of React Native work here. So, yes, totally agree with you. And one of the most frustrating things that I've come across is, I'm a big researcher, and so I'll research things, and I'm like, oh, there's an app for this. And I'm a big Android fan, so when I go to them, it's like, oh yes, I can use this app. And then it's like, no, I can't. It's only for iOS. Okay, like, you lost me as a customer. JAMON: [laughs] WILL: I was willing to pay whatever on this because I've been looking for it. So yeah, I like how you said that. JAMON: Yeah. It treats all of the platforms as first-class citizens. WILL: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Totally agree. How does your company handle the backend? Do y'all do any of the backend, or how is that handled at Infinite Red? JAMON: We used to do that, like I mentioned. But a few years ago...we had a very, very small back-end team by then. Most of the time, and now pretty much 100% of the time, when someone comes to us, they already have a back-end team, so we work directly with them. A lot of our developers were back-end developers, and so they understand the backend really well, but they're obviously React Native specialists now. So, you know, I came from that. I did PHP. I did Ruby, Ruby on Rails, Elixir, Node, all kinds of back-end technology. So, I understand it really well as well. But yeah, we lean on our clients for that. We might partner with an agency like you folks over there at thoughtbot and have them do the backend, or just have the client, you know, come up with their own solution. WILL: Yeah, I love that, yeah. And we've done that with numerous agencies, so yeah, that's awesome. What does success look like for Infinite Red now versus, you know, six months or five years from now? Do y'all have any goals in mind that you're trying to hit? JAMON: In the Infinite Red leadership, we are currently reading John Maxwell's 21 indisputable Laws of Leadership, which is a good book. And we had this really great conversation at our first book club meeting in leadership, which John Maxwell defines success in a very different way than we do. You know, he measured it as, like, McDonald's, or Starbucks, or something like that, like, giant, becoming huge, becoming big, making tons of money. And it was sort of just implicit in the book that that was the case. We had this great talk internally. Why didn't this resonate with us? And that's because we don't really measure success that way. So, I love that question, Will, because measuring success is you really have to start there. Like, you have to start there and say, "What do we want from this?" So, ultimately, we want to build cool things with our friends. I'm a coding nerd. I want to code. I want to be in the code. That's why we're an agency. Like, if we were a product company, if we were building, I don't know, podcasting software or something, we'd have to become experts in podcasting rather than experts in React Native, or experts in TypeScript, or whatever we want to do. So, we really love code. We want to build that. We want to have an amazing family-first environment. We want to treat everybody super well. We want to have really low turnover, which we've been able to achieve. Hardly anybody leaves Infinite Red. Maybe every other year, we might lose one person. And even with those people, they tend to come back [laughs], which is a great sign. They go out and find out that, yeah, actually, Infinite Red is pretty awesome, and they come back. So, we really look for that. We really focus on that. We want that to happen. And it's really less about making the most money we can. Obviously, everybody wants to be well paid. And so, we're going to try to make sure we have a successful business in that way and that we want to be around for a long time. But, really, measuring success is less about business success and it's more about life success. It's really more about family success, being with my four kids, being there for them when they need me to be. That's why we're remote, you know, as another example. So, everything really hinges off of that. It's around happiness. It's around fulfillment. It's not around financial success. WILL: I'm a huge John Maxwell fan, by the way. JAMON: [laughs] There you go. WILL: So, yes, I love it. And I love how you explained, you know, because one of my questions I was going to ask you is about the core values, but I'm going to switch it up a little bit. So, I'm just going to say, in my opinion, I feel like there's almost leadership talk void at times, especially in the tech space. Like, we don't talk about leadership a lot. But it plays a huge part in what we do day to day. Like, you named a couple of core values and principles that you're following because of the leadership. So, for you, why is the leadership so important and I guess you can say have a seat at the table at Infinite Red? JAMON: I'm a strong believer, and I've become more of a strong believer over time, that it all starts at the top. If you don't have buy-in from your top leadership, it does not really matter what happens otherwise because they will continually undermine, and they have the power to continually undermine that. So, these core values have to apply to the top leaders. They have to be held accountable to that. And these leaders also need to be developed. So, we have three owners. We have three directors. And the three directors who are underneath us were not directors when we hired them; you know, they started out as developers. They started out as designers. They started out as project managers. But they became Director of Operations, Director of Engineering, Director of Communications. And we developed them. We poured a lot of time into them, and we continue to do that. In fact, even reading this book with them and going through that exercise is continuing to invest in them. Not that we as owners don't have growth to do; we also do. And so, we learn from them, and we learn from our team. So, you have to start there. And on that same vein, we do have some core values. We call them our foundation and our pillars. We have three foundational things, and we have four pillars. So, the three foundations are: one, we control our own destiny. We are not going to be beholden to some other company. We're not going to ride someone else's coattails. We're not going to be in a situation where someone else can kill us. And it can be easily done that way where we're in a position where, you know, we're too reliant on one whale client or something like that. We just won't do it. The second foundational thing is that we have...it's a word bonitas, which means kindness, friendliness, benevolence, blamelessness. And it's basically just being a good person to everybody and doing the right thing. And the third one is having a significant positive impact. That's why we do so much media. That's why we try to have an impact outside. And we're only 30 people, but people think we're way bigger because of how we kind of present ourselves in the world. And then our pillars all support those things, so high personal support. We support each other. We have high expectations, but we also support each other not just at work but also as a whole person. Long-term viewpoint, we think way beyond this year. We think about what is Infinite Red going to be when I retire? You know, I'm 41; that's a ways out, hopefully. But what's that going to look like? The next one is collaborative creativity. Creativity by yourself is just a solo thing. We're a team, so it has to be collaborative. We have to do it together. All our creative work, whether it's our conference, Chain React, or our work, it's all collaborative, and we love being creative. And the last thing is being pioneers, pioneering spirit. We like to be pioneers in technology. We put out a lot of open source. And we try to bring that pioneering spirit everywhere we go. And then, there's a lot of different things that kind of come out of that. For example, we have this internal saying, which is, "Don't do hard things alone." So, you have a hard thing coming up? And it could be hard in various ways. It could be a technically challenging thing. It could just be hard because of the mood you're in that day. But don't do it alone. Ask someone to help you, you know, jump in with you, pair with you. Do it together. And we love that. That's part of the high personal support and the bonitas. So, all these things come out of the foundation and pillars that we have. WILL: Wow, I love all those. I want to pick one of them out and ask you a question around it. So, you're talking about having an impact. I'm loving this conversation just talking to you. It's just been amazing. So, for you, what do you want the impact on the world to be from your perspective? JAMON: That's a hard question to answer, and it tends to be something that I think about a lot. I'm more of an opportunistic person. I react more than I plan ahead, that sort of thing. But with that said, I think that we have had significant positive impact through a lot of different ways. So, on Twitter, for example, I try to present a...and this is authentically who I am. But I try to present a positive force out there, someone who's excited and enthusiastic about the technology, who supports other people, even who you might consider competitors, for example. I just retweeted recently a Callstack thing. I mean, you might consider them a competitor. They're another React Native agency. But I love Callstack. They're great people. And I retweeted one of their really amazing resources, which is the ultimate guide to React Native performance, which, by the way, is really good. And if you do React Native, you should check it out. So, I think what goes around comes around, and I really want to have that positive impact out there. I want to give talks that inspire people. You know, I'm a nerd, and I'm going to nerd out about stuff. And I feel like that has an impact all of its own. So, that's kind of my personal side of it. And then Infinite Red is a showcase that you can run a company the right way. You can treat people the right way. And the company can be successful along our own metrics of success. WILL: So, one of my biggest principles that I've learned in life that's changed my leadership 100,000% is from this book called One Minute Manager. And I think it's called one-minute praise. And, essentially, the background behind it is, if you think something, just tell the person because so many times...and I get in my head, and I think amazing things about people, but I never say it. JAMON: [laughs] WILL: So, I want to just tell you, like, you said, the impact that you're making. You are doing that. Like, one of the reasons why I invited you on the show was because of your impact that I see that you're having on Twitter and LinkedIn and just everything that you're doing at Infinite Red. So, keep going. I want you to know that you are making a difference. I see you, and it's making a big difference in my life. JAMON: I love that, and it makes me feel great. And I appreciate you sharing that one-minute praise there. It is something that sometimes you put it out there, and you don't really know what the impact is, you know, it's sort of hidden in maybe the likes, or the replies, or whatever. As an example, I just reached out to my friend Aaron Francis last night, and I told him, "Hey, I love your videos." I don't even do the tech that he does. But I watch his videos on YouTube because I just love the vibe that he has. And I told him that. I was like, "You're doing a great job. You're being a very good advocate for your company." And I agree with you; I think that just taking the moment to reach out and say, "Hey, I think you're doing good work," it encourages people to do more of it. So, I appreciate it a lot, Will. That's really nice of you to say. WILL: Yeah, definitely. If you can go back, what is some advice that you would give yourself? We could do both at the beginning when you did ClearSight and whenever you merged and did Infinite Red. Was there any advice that you're like, wow, I learned these lessons, and they were game changers for me? JAMON: [laughs] Boy, this could be a whole nother podcast, to be honest. There are so many different things that I've kind of learned over the years. I feel like, you know, there's value in, you know, there was actually...I forget exactly where I heard this, but it was about Cloudflare, the company. And a long time ago, as they were sort of launching, one of the people that worked on the...I think it was their founder, actually. One of their investors told him, "Hey, running a company is sort of like flying an airplane. You want to make sure that it's well-maintained at all times. And then, when you're flying, you keep the wheel steady and the nose 10 degrees above the horizon so you continue to rise. And you don't need to shoot for the moon. We're not a rocket here. Just continue to execute well, make sure that it's well maintained, make sure that you're continually rising." And Cloudflare is a good example of this, and I think that Infinite Red is as well. Every year, we try to do something where we're continuing to keep that nose 10% above the horizon. That doesn't always mean growing. Like, we don't hire all that often. We don't grow in terms of headcount, but we grow in other ways. And you can see that looking back over the years. Every year, there was something that we continued to, you know, improve, keeping that nose 10 degrees above the horizon. And so, that's a big one. And you can just go do all the little things really well and continue to think long term and where are you headed. And if you do the right things long enough, good things happen. WILL: I love that because, especially when I'm working out, I try to shoot for the moon. JAMON: [laughs] WILL: I go all out. So, that was some amazing advice. I don't even remember who told me, but when I first started programming, I tried to shoot for the moon. And, oh, I crashed and burned so many times [laughs] because it's just something you can't just master it, and just like, I got it, da da da. And I love that advice. That's amazing advice. So, that's perfect. JAMON: Yeah, it really stuck with me, and I have so many more lessons. I have actually kept a notebook of profound things that I've heard over the years, and I actually really enjoy that minute praising you said. And I'm going to look up the quote after this, and I'm going to put it in my notebook. [laughter] WILL: Yeah, yeah. It's been a game-changer because I'm a very straightforward person. And so, a lot of times, like, I don't mind addressing an issue just head-on. But what I found is I'm just always doing that. And I never had equity in the bank at times. This is when I was a very young leader. I didn't have equity. And so, it was just hard to tell people, "Hey, can we tweak this? Can we do that?" And then I had to sit back and say, okay, what can I change to be a better leader? And it's like, I can connect better. And I see so many things. Like, I'm very observant, I think. To be honest, it's helped me in every area, even with my spouse, with my kids, with friends. It's just saying, "Hey, I see what you did. I see that you made breakfast." Or "My kids, I see that you made this beautiful mud pie for me. And it's amazing. So, thank you. Thank you." And so, yeah, it's been a game changer for me. JAMON: Yeah, one of my friends, his goal was...and he's a leader. And he said that his goal with everyone on one was to give them one thing to change and highlight one thing they did well like you said, equity in the bank. He was talking about when he was a leader of, like, a call bank. And he said, "No matter how bad the call was, I wouldn't give them more than two things to improve because there was no way that they could take ten critiques and improve. They would just be defeated." And then, he would review and see if they could improve one more thing, avoided negative language, things like that. So, that's a really interesting concept. WILL: Yeah, definitely, definitely. So, I have one other question for you. What motivates you? What's your wind in your sails? What keeps you going? Because I know running a consultant agency is not easy. What keeps you going? JAMON: For me, motivation tends to be enthusiasm for learning, really more than anything, like going into something new and, like, exploring. I see it more as exploring even than learning. With a consultancy, there's always so many different...it's never the same, you know, there's always some other challenge. And that's one of the reasons I've loved being, you know, a consultancy owner for so many years. You're never dealing with just the same stuff over and over. So, I would say it's really about the exploration that happens, and just loving code, and talking shop, and being around great people. To me, that continues to motivate me. WILL: I love that. Do you have anything that you would like to promote — personally, Infinite Red, anything? JAMON: Well, Infinite Red, of course. If you're looking for React Native, we are all senior-level React Native developers. We've been working together for a long time. So, big companies, the biggest ones you can think of, many of them have hired us to, you know, be the experts with their team. We usually put 2 or 3 people on a project, and then the client will come in with 2 to 10 people or whatever they have on their side. And we work with them side by side, teaching them as well as delivering code. So, that's really our bread and butter. We also put on the biggest and, I think, only U.S.-based React Native conference, and it's called Chain React. It's in Portland. Next year, it's going to be in July. So, go check it out: chainreactconf.com. We'd love to see you all there. I'd love to see you there, Will. And network with all these different React Native developers. There's people from Meta, and Microsoft, Amazon, all over the world, really. And they're some of the best React Native programmers you're going to ever meet, and some great talks, and great food, and a great city. WILL: Yeah, I would love to be there. Let me ask you this: how is Portland in July? JAMON: Portland is amazing in July. Sometimes, it can get hot, but for the most part, it's just beautiful. It'll be like 85 degrees, not really any humidity, nice, little breeze. It's just a beautiful weather pattern around Julyish. That's why we chose that time of year. So, definitely, if you're going to be coming to Oregon, Portland, you know, West Coast, July is a great time to come. It's not going to be super, super hot, usually. Sometimes, I mean, we get over 100 sometimes, but no worries, you know, there's AC as well. But for the most part, it's beautiful. WILL: You sold me already. JAMON: [laughs] WILL: So, I live in South Florida, so...[laughs] JAMON: Yeah, it's going to be different in South Florida in July. [laughter] WILL: Awesome. Well, this has been an amazing chat, and just great getting to know you and learning more about Infinite Red. Thank you for being a part of the podcast. JAMON: Yeah. Thanks for inviting me, Will. It was a lot of fun, and you're a great host. I appreciate it. WILL: I appreciate it. JAMON: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions. Special Guest: Jamon Holmgren.

We are thrilled to announce the third session of our new Incubator Program. If you have a business idea that involves a web or mobile app, we encourage you to apply to our eight-week program. We'll help you validate your market opportunity, experiment with messaging and product ideas, and move forward with confidence toward an MVP. Learn more and apply at tbot.io/incubator. We look forward to seeing your application in our inbox! __ Co-host Will Larry interviews Stephen Hanson, the Director of Mobile Development at thoughtbot. The two explore the complexities of mobile app development, focusing on the advantages and disadvantages of React Native and Flutter. Stephen, who initially started as a full-stack web developer specializing in Enterprise Java, discusses React Native's cost-effectiveness and the convenience of having a unified codebase for iOS and Android platforms. However, he notes that Flutter might be a more suitable choice for high-performance needs. Both hosts emphasize the nuances of the mobile ecosystem, covering topics like in-app purchases, push notifications, and the strict guidelines set by app stores like Apple's. They agree that a comprehensive understanding of these aspects is crucial for an entire development team, including designers and project managers. Additionally, Stephen shares that the driving force behind his career is the opportunity to create apps that enhance people's lives. Stephen wraps up the discussion by detailing thoughtbot's goals of improving mobile development practices within the company and the broader developer community. __ React Native (https://reactnative.dev/) Flutter (https://flutter.dev/) Follow Stephen Hanson on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/hansonsteve/). Visit his website: shanson.co (https://shanson.co/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. And with me today is Stephen Hanson, Director of Mobile Development here at thoughtbot. Stephen, thank you for joining me. STEPHEN: Hi, Will. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. WILL: Yeah. I'm excited to talk about mobile development. But before we get started, tell us a little bit about who Stephen Hanson is: your personal life. STEPHEN: You know this because we often talk about our families when we get together. But I have two young kids, two and four years old. When you say personal life to anybody who has young kids, that's what we're talking about. [laughter] WILL: Yes. STEPHEN: So, they're keeping me busy but in the best way. WILL: Yeah, definitely. And I totally understand that. So, I know we talk about this often, but you like to woodwork. You like to work with your hands like most of us in tech. Like, we think so much with our head and mental that we try to find something to do physically, and yours is woodworking. Tell me a little bit about that. STEPHEN: Yeah. I think it's exactly what you said. I think working on a computer all day, you know, many years ago, I was like, what's something I can do with my hands, right? Something a little more physical. So yeah, fine woodworking has been a hobby of mine for quite a few years. And we were even chatting the other day about, you know, I'm trying to take time during the day to sneak out to the garage for 15 minutes, you know, during my lunch break or whatever to just get that mental reset and just work on something. WILL: Yeah. I know that you built your office that you work out of. I've been wanting to ask you, one, how did you do it? Two, how did you have the confidence to do it [laughter] to make sure that it was going to...how can I say this? I would be afraid that would it still be standing [laughter] after a little bit? [laughs] STEPHEN: Yeah, to be honest, that was definitely a fear. Yeah, I built my office in 2020, you know, COVID hit. All of a sudden, I was working fully remote. And we had another kid on the way. You know, we didn't have space in the house. So, I was like, what am I going to do? [laughs] I was already doing woodworking, but I didn't have any construction or carpentry experience. So, yeah, I definitely had the confidence issue. And I think, you know, I was just like, I don't know, let's just give it a try. [laughter] That's really all I can say. I didn't have the skills yet. But I watched a lot of YouTube and read a lot of [laughs] forums or, you know, just found info wherever I could, so...[laughs] WILL: Yep. And it's still standing today, correct? [laughs] STEPHEN: Correct. Yeah. [laughs] No, I'm just sitting in, like, a pile of rubble right now. [laughter] WILL: That's awesome, yeah. It's kind of like development sometimes for me. Like, you just got to take that leap sometimes, so... STEPHEN: You do, right? It's like, you know, fake it till you make it. [laughter] WILL: Yep. That's awesome. Awesome. Awesome. So, tell us a little bit about how did you get started in development in general? And then, how did you get started in React Native? STEPHEN: Yeah. So, I started out as a full-stack web developer. So, I didn't initially set out and say, "I'm going to build mobile apps," right? And I started out in 2011. I was working in Enterprise Java. I worked for American Airlines for a couple of years, and then I did enterprise consulting. I eventually made my way to, like, Rails and front-end development. And around 2016, 2017, I was freelancing. And eventually, clients started asking me to build mobile apps. [chuckles] WILL: [inaudible 04:16] STEPHEN: And I didn't know how to build mobile apps. So, I did what any web developer would do who doesn't build apps, and I used web technology. So, those first couple of apps that I built were hybrid apps. I used Ionic. And those are, you know, web apps that you package in a Native Wrapper. So, developing these apps, I literally developed them in a browser, right? And they're web apps. [laughs] And that was my first experience building apps. Even if they were web-based, I still had to work with the native app stores and learn, you know, app review guidelines and implement some native functionality, even though it was through, like, the Ionic wrappers. You know, people kind of trash on hybrid apps, and sometimes for good reason. But that wasn't a bad first experience for me or outcome, honestly. The clients were happy. They had apps in the app stores that were working for a pretty reasonable development cost. So yeah, that was my first experience in mobile. The end result isn't something I'd be necessarily proud of today. [laughs] WILL: I think that's all devs. [laughs] STEPHEN: Yeah, you know, [laughter] yeah, I -- WILL: Looking back at their work, yeah. [laughs] STEPHEN: I was talking about that. I could look back to something I built a month ago. [laughs] WILL: Yes. [laughter] STEPHEN: You don't have to go back far. [laughter] WILL: Yeah, so true [laughs]. You started working with the client when you were freelancing. So, how did you go from the hybrid web apps to actually saying, okay, I want to change, and I want to go all in on React Native? STEPHEN: React Native came out around that same time I was building those hybrid apps. So, the hybrid apps were 2016, 2017. React Native came out in 2015. So it was out, but it was still pretty new. And I was really interested in React Native right from the beginning, but I was also a little intimidated by it [chuckles]. So, when those first clients came to me for mobile apps, I didn't feel confident enough to say, "Yes, I can build you a React Native app." But a year or two later, I was working for another client on their Rails app. And I was building an API for their new React Native app. You know, I was really interested in React Native. So I said, "Hey, [chuckles] why don't I help out on the app side, too?" And they were like, "Sure, that sounds great." So that was kind of where I got my foot in the door with React Native. And then more opportunities like that just kept popping up over the next year. So, I got to work on a couple of other React Native apps. And like we talked about, I just started calling myself a React Native developer [laughs]. The rest is history. WILL: Yep. So true. We'll touch more on that later. But what would you say to a client who is trying to figure out if they should build native versus React Native? STEPHEN: There's a few things to consider when making that decision. But I think, usually, what I've seen is it comes down to budget and user experience. The bottom line is React Native is going to be a lot cheaper. You're basically building one app instead of two, right? Most of your code in a React Native app is going to be in JavaScript, and you can reuse all of that code across Android and iOS. If you're building a native app, you're just building two completely separate apps. So, it's just going to be cheaper to build that React Native app, and a lot of times, that's what it comes down to. For most companies, it can be really hard to justify that extra cost of building a completely native app for each platform. But then the question is when we talk about how can you justify the cost? Well, what would justify the cost, right? [laughs] I think probably the biggest trade-off when you build a React Native app versus a purely native app is there is a little bit of a performance penalty by building in React Native versus native. So, I think apps that will need to have a very flashy cutting-edge experience with lots of user-driven animation and effects, you know, when you get into that domain, I think that's where we see pure native starting to make more sense. But most apps and users would never feel that performance penalty of React Native. So, for most apps, that's not really something that enters into the equation. WILL: I want to dig into something you said. You were talking about if you do go native, you usually have to build an iOS and an Android separately. But with React Native, you could do it together. So, for someone who's maybe never done either one of them, can you kind of dig into, like, what does that look like? So, when you say I have to build an iOS and an Android portion versus I can do one codebase for React Native, can you walk us through kind of what that looks like, just a sample feature? STEPHEN: When I say React Native is a single codebase and, you know, native apps, you're building two apps, the way React Native works is you're basically building a React app. So, all of your business logic is going to be in React. And when your React code renders some UI, that gets translated into native UI. But your business logic is still going to be living in that JavaScript React app. So, one, when I say performance penalty, that's what I'm talking about is: there's a little bit of a performance penalty communicating back and forth between your JavaScript thread and the native system thread. But when we talk about one codebase versus two, that's what a React Native app looks like. You basically are working on a React app. It's one codebase with one set of business logic. And when you say, "Show a modal on the screen," that gets translated into a native Android modal or a native iOS modal, but in your code, you're just saying, "Show a modal." [laughs] So, you're just writing that one time. So yeah, a React Native project is just one codebase. Now, one thing that we haven't really touched on is in a React Native app, you do have the ability to drop down into native code. So, you have access to the native Android project and the native iOS project in your React Native app. So, you can write completely native code if you want to. But the appeal of React Native is you don't have to, you know, unless you get into one of those situations where you need to do something native that isn't supported out of the box with React Native or by an existing third-party library, or you want to have a very performant, very interactive part of your app. Maybe there's a reason you want to do that in native. You know, you do have that option in a React Native app of dropping down into that native code level. But to contrast that with a purely native project, you will have two completely separate codebases, one for Android and one for iOS. You'll have a development team for Android and a development team for iOS, you know, typically with different skill sets. The Android project will be Java, Kotlin. And your iOS project is swift. So, just in every sense, you really have two different projects when you're working on a purely native app. WILL: Okay, yeah, that makes sense. So like, for React Native, that show modal is just however many lines to show that one modal, and it does it for iOS and Android. But when you talk about native, you're saying that; however, iOS says to show that modal, you have to do it that way. But then Android, you also have to do it the Android way. And one developer, unless they know both of them, may not be able to handle both for those cases, correct? STEPHEN: Yeah, exactly. React Native abstracts away those underlying platforms. So, you really just need to know React Native for most cases. Though, there's definitely a benefit of knowing the underlying platforms. WILL: Definitely. Especially, like you touched on if you wanted to go into that native portion to add in a feature. You know, for example, I know we both worked on a project where we had a scanning app. And we had to tap into that native portion and React Native in order to get the scanning app to work, correct? STEPHEN: Yeah, that's right. We had to support some barcode scanning devices and hook into those barcode scanning frameworks that were proprietary [chuckles] to those devices. So yeah, we had to build native modules for Android and iOS to support those. WILL: Gotcha. Okay. I want to touch back on something you said earlier about the flashy experiences. You said sometimes you may not see it or whatever, but sometimes, if you want that flashy experience, it's better to go the native route. Can you explain that a little bit more? STEPHEN: So yeah, it's kind of what I was touching on a second ago. You know, in a React Native app, you have the JavaScript thread that is always running and coordinating UI changes with business logic. So, you've got your business logic in JavaScript. You've got the UI in native. And those need to be coordinated to interact. So, that's kind of where that performance penalty can happen. You know, again, most apps and users would never feel this penalty. I've never been, like, using my phone and been like, oh, this is a React Native app; I can feel it, you know. [laughs] It's not something that typically enters the picture for most apps that we work on. But there are certain types of apps that might be more important, you know, highly interactive games or things that just need to have that extra flashiness and interactive flashiness specifically, where it could make sense to build that natively. Another interesting thing in the React Native space is React Native recently re-architected their rendering engine to be written in C++ and be more efficient. So, this performance overhead might be a little bit less of a trade-off. They've re-architected the way that React Native JavaScript talks to the native layer, which might make this even less of an issue going forward. WILL: I looked it up for the podcast. But do you know some of the companies that we probably are familiar with, like they built apps on React Native? Can you name a couple? STEPHEN: Yeah, I was recently looking at this, too. And, you know, the big one is Facebook, right? Facebook built React Native. So, they're the sponsor of that project. So, Facebook and Facebook Messenger, I believe those apps are built with React Native. I don't know if the entire apps are or not [chuckles]. Do you know by chance? [laughs] WILL: React Native on their website says, "Hey, we're going to showcase these apps that they're built in React Native." So, I'm guessing a huge portion of it was built in React Native, so... STEPHEN: Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah, you're right. They're showcasing it there. So yeah, you know, other ones, you know, lots of brands, Shopify, looks like PlayStation. I'm looking at the list now on the React Native website: Pinterest, Flipkart, Discord, Walmart, Tesla, Coinbase, Mercari. Yeah, I mean, it's just a lot of big-name apps built in React Native, including quite a few that we've [laughs] that we've built. [laughter] MID-ROLL AD: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you're tight on time and investment, which is why we've created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product's next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at tbot.io/entrepreneurs. WILL: If I'm absolutely sold on getting that flashy experience, is native the only route to go? STEPHEN: I think until pretty recently, that would have been your option [laughs]. But Flutter has been picking up a little bit of momentum. So, Flutter is developed by Google. And it's kind of a challenger in that React Native space. It kind of has the same write once, run anywhere, you know, philosophy as React Native. You have one codebase. But they tout kind of being a more performant option than React Native. So, it compiles down to native ARM or Intel code, which can give better performance without, you know, not needing that JavaScript bridge kind of handling that communication between the UI and the business logic. WILL: So, when would you use Flutter versus React Native? STEPHEN: I kind of keep going back to, like, you know, we talk about the performance overhead of a React Native app. I don't think that's even on the map for the vast majority of apps. Like, this isn't a performance penalty that you can typically feel. So, looking at Flutter versus React Native, React Native has several advantages. I think the biggest one is it's React. So, every team has React developers already on the team, pretty much nowadays. So, you know, if you've got an organization that says, "Oh, we need to build a mobile app," they probably already have a team of React developers somewhere working on their web app [laughs]. So, there's a big benefit of kind of centralizing their team around that technology. You know, you can have a little bit of cross-pollination between web and mobile, which can be really nice. I think, similarly, it's a lot easier to find and hire React or React Native developers right now than it is to find and hire Flutter developers. So, Flutter is written in Dart, and it has its own front-end framework. So, this isn't necessarily a technology that you're going to have on your existing team. Like, I've never worked with Dart, personally. It's not nearly as common as React developers. You know, that, to me, is going to be a big downside. You know, the talent pool is a lot smaller for Flutter/Dart developers. Also, the ecosystem with Flutter being newer, it's not as established. It doesn't have as large of an ecosystem as React Native. So, for those reasons, I think React Native is still, at least for us, like, it's usually where we would steer a client over Flutter, unless they're in that category of, like, they're really going for something, you know, groundbreaking. And, you know, the choice is either, you know, they've ruled out React Native. They need to get that native performance, and maybe they could achieve that with Flutter, and maybe Flutter would be a good option then. WILL: Okay. You mentioned that—and I agree with you—like, you probably have some React devs on your team somewhere. Most companies does. So, say if I am bought in, I'm going all in on React Native, and I have React web developers on my team. Is that an easy transition for those developers, or what does that transition look like? STEPHEN: Yeah, this is something...I think you and I have talked about this a lot because we both transitioned from React Web to React Native. And, you know, it wasn't all that easy, right? [laughs] WILL: No, it was not [laughter] at all. [laughter] STEPHEN: So yeah, you know, it is a fallacy to say, "Hey, we've got a React team, you know, let's just start tomorrow on building an app, and it'll be smooth sailing. And, you know, no one needs to learn anything, and we'll be good to go," right? [laughs] So, you know, what I always say is a React web developer can successfully work on a React Native app. But I don't think they have the skills yet to lead that initiative because there's just so much to the mobile ecosystem that needs to be learned. And really, you know, my first couple of React Native apps, I wasn't the lead developer. There was somebody on those projects who really knew that space better than I did. And that was really helpful for me to have. How about you? What about your first, like, React Native project? What did that look like? WILL: It was at another company, and the exact words paraphrasing was, "You know React, so you can easily work on React Native." And so, I got on the project. And I really struggled, to be honest with you, because there's a lot of things that I didn't know: in-app purchases, push notifications, how to deal with Apple store, Android store, deploying to those stores. Like all of those things, navigation is totally different than React navigations and routes. It was a lot. It was a lot more than they led on to what it was. Eventually, I caught on. It took me a while. I needed to work with some more senior React Native developers, and I was able to really pick it up. But yeah, it was tough. I'll be honest: I struggled for a while because I went in feeling like I should have known all those things because that's the way it was conveyed to me. Now that I look back on it I was like, there's no way I could have known those things. It's just a different language. So, I had to get in there and learn it. And I even...I'm trying to think I've learned a couple of new languages. But it's almost like learning a new language just with, you know, the, like I mentioned, the in-app purchases, push notifications. It's just totally different. STEPHEN: Yeah, that's been my experience also. I think the challenges weren't, like, coding [laughs] because, you know, building a React Native app is coding in React. The challenges that I faced were, like you said, it's just the mobile ecosystem and learning all the intricacies, the functionality that users have come to expect in mobile apps, you know, like password manager, integration, and background execution modes, and deep linking strategies, all that kind of stuff. You know, if you don't know what questions to ask or what features to be thinking of, it's just really hard. And [laughs] I think it's more than just the developer needing to know that too. I think anytime it comes, you know, down to building an app, the whole team needs to have that mobile background. It's just a completely different platform than building for the web, right? So like, product owners, project managers, designers, developers all need that context so we can be prioritizing the right features and building a UI that matches the patterns that people have come to expect in a mobile app. And then, of course, developing those apps using the, you know, the proper native modules. WILL: Yeah, definitely. And I [chuckles]...you mentioned that it's mostly on, like, the mobile side. I don't know the best way to say that. But, like, I can tell you, when I first got onto the React Native project, there were numerous features that I could implement, and to a certain point to where I had to go that mobile. So, like, I was like, oh yeah, I can learn these new components that's in React Native. Okay, I got it to work. It's finished. You know, my PM would be like, "Well, it's not completely finished because you have to deploy it." And I was like, oh, I have no idea what I'm doing now. Like, I just know [laughs]...I know up to this point. STEPHEN: [laughs] WILL: But anything over that, I'm like, yeah, I have no idea. STEPHEN: Especially with consulting, right? With consulting, you need even more expertise, right? The clients are counting on you to build their app. And that's where, you know, having that deep, deep familiarity where you can say to a client, "This is how we're going to do the deployment process, you know, and I need, you know, X, Y, and Z to help set it up. And here are the deliverables, and here's when we'll have it," that kind of thing. Like, it really takes it up a whole nother notch what you need to know. WILL: Definitely, yeah. Because I think compared to mobile, I feel like web development can almost be like the Wild Wild West. And what I mean by that is, like, there's no rules for you to push out a website in web. Like, you know, you build it. You push it out. It can be out there, you know. Whoever is hosting it, unless you go against their rules, maybe, but their rules are very relaxed and stuff like that. Mobile, there's a totally different set of rules. Because, like, I was laughing not too long ago. There was rumors that Elon Musk was going to remove the blocking feature on Twitter [chuckles]. And it was funny because all the mobile devs they came out. And if you're a mobile dev, you know this. Apple is very strict. STEPHEN: [laughs] WILL: If this is a social media app that you're building, you have to have that blocking feature, which I agree it needs to be there. But it's funny, like, all the mobile devs was like, yeah, that's not going to work. Good luck [chuckles]. Good luck being an app again. STEPHEN: Yeah, [laughs] good luck. WILL: Like, they're going to kick it off. And yeah, they're very big on kicking it off if it doesn't follow those rules and things like that. So yeah, for React Native, you have to learn those rules, or, like I said, they won't approve it. They won't push it out to their store. STEPHEN: Yep, exactly. Yeah. I feel like the new one at every client project; I have to say, "We have to offer a way to delete your account in the app," because [laughs] that's a new one that launched last year, and I think has just started being enforced more recently. Like, all those little gotcha rules, you know, like, if you don't know about that, then you're going to go to submit your app to the stores, and you're going to get rejected every single time. [laughs]. WILL: And they're not shy about rejecting you [laughs]. STEPHEN: Yeah. But I would say, like, a lot of the rules, I'm like, yes, this is amazing that we have these rules, you know. It does help keep the community safer like things like blocking. But then there's the other rules of, like, Apple's like, hey, you've got to use our payment system and pay us 30% of every sale. WILL: Yes [laughs]. STEPHEN: I was, like, you know, there's some evil stuff happening there, too. WILL: I totally agree. And we ran into that issue. We had an app that used Stripe. And we actually had to remove it in order to use in-app purchases because...I forgot the rules around it, but it was essentially for digital content. I think it's what it was. And so, we had to use Apple's in-app purchases. So yeah, I totally agree with you on that. STEPHEN: Yeah. I feel like I've been a part of so many apps where we're, like, reading those rules. And we're like, okay, you know, it's like, we're watching a live stream of birds. WILL: [laughs] STEPHEN: You know, like, the birds aren't digital [laughter], you know. It's like, [laughs] where does this fall in the rule? [laughs] WILL: Yes [laughs]. I've done that, too [laughter]. Yep. It's almost like, you know, I feel like lawyers, okay, like, is this what this rule is, or the law what is written, or does this fall underneath that? So yeah, totally, totally agree. STEPHEN: Yep [laughs]. WILL: So, you've been here a couple of years at thoughtbot. What has been your experience building React Natives here for clients at thoughtbot? STEPHEN: Yeah, yeah. I've been at thoughtbot for about five years now. And I have been building React Native apps that whole time. And, I mean, I started at thoughtbot a little more in the full-stack space, web development, and have transitioned to where I'm mostly only building React Native mobile apps now. It's been a great experience. I think that React Native is really a sweet spot of; we're able to build these apps really efficiently and much less expensively than when we're doing pure native. And the end product is a really good app. So, it's been a great experience, you know, React Native is really...it has a really nice development experience. You know, it's the JavaScript React ecosystem. And we use TypeScript, and we have a really good developer experience with it. And then we're building apps that clients are really happy with and with a good budget. So, I think it's kind of that, you know, like, win-win-win kind of scenario where everybody is happy. And yeah, I don't see it going anywhere. And I think we're going to be building React Native apps for quite a while to come. WILL: Yeah, I totally agree with that. Where do you see React Native and mobile dev going here at thoughtbot in the next six months or even the next year? What are your goals for the mobile team? STEPHEN: We've got a couple of goals. One of them is around kind of what we've talked about with the mobile space in general. This isn't really specific to React Native, but it can be. But, consulting in the mobile space is challenging because there's a lot of mobile-specific domain knowledge that a team really needs to have. So, that's something that we've started looking into is, like, how do we build up our resources internally and then, hopefully, externally as well to help guide us on our projects and ensure that we have, like, you know, we are developing apps consistently and efficiently every time? So, that's something we're looking into is, like resources to help our teams—not just developers, but project managers, designers, and developers—help us navigate the mobile space. Okay, you're going to do push notifications. Here's the library we use. Here's things to think about, and interactions to think about, and iOS-specific functionality that we could support, and Android-specific functionality that we can support. You know, you're going to do deep linking; do you want to use universal links, or do you want to use a different strategy, a scheme-based link? So, basically, building up that set of resources so that our teams are all able to consult and build efficiently and consistently across the board. So, that's kind of goal number one. And then, goal number two is to kind of bring some of that out into the community a little bit more. So, thoughtbot is very well known in the Rails space for all of the open-source content we've put out and blog posts, and courses, and books. I mean, there's just so much on the Rails side that thoughtbot has done. And we're just a little bit less mature on the React Native side in terms of what we've put out there. So, that's kind of the second goal is giving back, helping others kind of do that same thing. I feel like we have developed our practices internally, and we're building some great apps. And it's kind of time to contribute back a little bit more. WILL: Awesome. I'm looking forward to reaching those goals. If you can go back and give yourself advice, what would you tell yourself? STEPHEN: I would maybe say, read the documentation [laughs]. I don't know when I got into mobile; I think I just jumped in. And, you know, we've talked about some of the mobile-specific domain, and not knowing what you don't know, and app review guidelines. I feel like early on, I just responded to challenges as they came up, as opposed to just digging into, you know, Apple's documentation and Android's documentation and just really understanding the underlying operating systems in stores. That's probably a piece of advice. If I could go back, I would just start at the documentation, you know, go to developer.apple.com and read about all of the underlying APIs of StoreKit and, you know, associated domains and all of these sorts of things. Just learn 'em, and then you know 'em. [laughs]. So, maybe that could have saved me some heartache if I just was a little more intentional about, okay, I'm getting into app development. I'm going to set aside some time and just really learn this stuff, as opposed to kind of where I had one foot in the door, one foot out of the door for a while. And I think that kept me from just sitting down and really going deep. WILL: That's really good advice. Just read the documentation. And that's not just Apple. STEPHEN: [laughs] WILL: That's a lot of departments, sections of my life. So, yes, I like that. [laughter] STEPHEN: I actually...that's something I did early in my career. So, I started as an Enterprise Java developer in 2011, and I was using the Spring framework. I downloaded the entire PDF. It was, like, 250 pages, the documentation [laughs]. And I remember just being on, like, airplane flights, and I just read the documentation, just cover to cover. That served me so well. I was, like, the expert, you know [laughs]. I don't always do it, but when I do, I'm like, oh yeah, why didn't I do that sooner? [laughs] WILL: Yeah, totally agree. I like that. What is the wind in your sails? What motivates Stephen? STEPHEN: Like, I think what attracted me to software development is just being able to build stuff, you know, probably the same thing that attracted me to woodworking. So, I think what motivates me is that prospect of, hey, I'm building an app that people are going to use, and it's going to make their life better. So, that's really what gets me up and gets me motivated. It's less so the actual coding, to be honest. It's really the prospect of, like, hey, I'm building something. WILL: Awesome. Yeah. Is there anything that you would like to promote? STEPHEN: If you're interested in building a mobile app, come talk to us. We'd love to build your mobile app. Go to thoughtbot.com/hire-us; I believe hire-us. We would love to talk to you about your mobile project. So, don't hesitate to reach out. We'd love to hear about what you're interested in building. WILL: Awesome. Well, Stephen, it was great to chat with you. It's always great to chat with you about mobile development and just personal life things. So, I really appreciate you being on the podcast today. STEPHEN: Thanks for having me, Will. It was a lot of fun. Always good talking with you. WILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have any questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Stephen Hanson.

Amy Spurling is the Founder and CEO of Compt, helping companies build and scale flexible perks, stipends that delight teams. She explains how Compt's approach to benefits aligns with an employee's life stages, and shares insights from data that revealed the vast diversity of vendors utilized by employees. Amy talks about fundraising for Compt, highlighting the gender investment gap and the difficulties faced by female founders. She also shares her personal experiences as a lesbian founder and emphasizes the importance of a diverse workforce. She outlines Compt's mission to provide equitable compensation and foster a broader perspective within companies, the economic miss of not investing in female-founded companies, and the complexities of transitioning into different roles within a startup. Amy's leadership values of balance and belonging are explored, and she shares insights about navigating hurdles like SOC 2 and GDPR compliance. Additionally, they talk about trends in the tech industry, such as AI's use in healthcare and the potential for bias in software, along with data privacy issues. __ Compt.io (https://www.compt.io/) Follow Compt.io on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/compt/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/compthq/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/ComptHQ), or Xr (https://twitter.com/ComptHQ). Follow Amy Spurling on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/amyspurling/) or X (https://twitter.com/amyspurling). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. WILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with us today is Amy Spurling, Founder and CEO of Compt, helping companies build and scale flexible perks, stipends that delight teams. Amy, thank you for joining. AMY: Thanks so much for having me. VICTORIA: Amy, I saw in your LinkedIn background that you have a picture of someone hiking in what looks like a very remote area. So, just to start us off today, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about that. And what's your hobby there? AMY: Sure. I do spend a lot of time backpacking. That picture, I believe, was actually taken in Mongolia a couple of years ago. We spent ten days kind of hiking around in, I mean, everything is backcountry basically in Mongolia. So, spending a lot of time walking around, looking at mountains, is kind of my pastime. WILL: I have a question around backpacking itself. When you say backpacking, what does that mean? Does it mean you only have a backpack, and you're out in the mountains, and you're just enjoying life? AMY: It depends. So, in Mongolia, there were a couple of folks with camels, so carrying the heavy gear for us but still living in tents. My wife and I just did a backpacking trip in the Accursed Mountains in Albania, though, and everything was on our backpack. So, you're carrying a 35-pound pack. It has all your food, your water, your camping gear, and you just go. And you're just kind of living off the land kind of. I mean, you're taking food, so it's not like I'm foraging or hunting but living in the outback. WILL: Wow. What does that do for you just internally, just getting off the grid, enjoying nature? Because I know with tech and everything now, it's kind of hard to do that. But you've done that, I think you said, for ten days. Like, walk us through that experience a little bit. AMY: Some people use yoga, things like that, to go to a zen place, be calm, you know, help quiet their mind. For me, I need to do something active, and that's what I use this for. So getting off away from my phone, away from my laptop—those are not available to me when I'm in the mountains—and just focusing on being very present and listening to the birds, smelling the flowers. You know, pushing myself to where I'm, you know, exerting a lot of energy hiking and just kind of being is just...it's pretty fantastic. VICTORIA: And I'm curious, what brought you to decide to go to Albania to get to that experience? Because that's not a top destination for many people. But -- AMY: It is not. So, we travel a fair amount, and we backpack a fair amount. And the mountains there are honestly some of the most beautiful I've seen anywhere in the world. And so, we're always looking for, where can you get off the grid pretty quickly? Where can you be in the mountains pretty quickly in a way that still has a path so that you're not putting yourself in danger? Unless...I mean, we've done that too. But you want to make sure you have a guide, obviously, if you're going completely no path, no trail kind of camping, too. But it just looked really beautiful. We planned it actually for three years ago and had to cancel because it was May of 2020. And so, we've had this trip kind of on the books and planned for it for a while. VICTORIA: That's awesome. Yeah, I know of Albania because I had a friend who worked there for a few years. And she said the rock climbing there is amazing. And it actually has one of the last wild rivers in Europe. So, it's just a very remote, very interesting place. So, it's funny that you went there [laughs]. I was like, wait, other people also go to Albania. That's awesome. I love the outdoor space. Well, what a great perk or benefit to working to be able to take those vacations and take that time off and spend it in a way that makes you feel refreshed. Tell me more about Compt and your background. What led you to found this company? AMY: Sure. I've been in tech companies for, you know, over 20 years. I've been a CFO, a COO building other people's dreams, so coming in as a primary executive, you know, first funding round type of person, help scale the team, manage finance and HR. And I loved doing that, but I got really frustrated with the lack of tools that I needed to be able to hire people and to retain people. Because the way we compensate people has changed for the last 10, 15 years. And so, ultimately, decided to build a platform to solve my own problem and my own team's problems, and started that getting close to six years ago now. But wanted to build a tech company in a very different way as well. So, in the same way, I take time off, I want my team to take time off. So, we operate on a basis of everyone should be taking their time off. Don't check in while you're out. We'll make sure we're covered. You know, let's build a sustainable business here. And everybody should be working 40 to 45 hours a week, which is definitely not a startup culture or norm. WILL: Yeah. I love that. I was doing some research on Compt. And so, in your words, can you explain to everyone exactly what your company does? AMY: Sure. So, we build lifestyle benefit accounts for companies. And what that means...and the terminology keeps changing, so some people may call them stipends or allowances. But it's really looking at how you pull together employee perks, benefits that will help compete for talent. And right now, retention is kind of the key driver for most companies. How do I keep the people I have really happy? Competitive salaries are obviously table stakes. Health insurance for most industries is table stakes. So, it's, what else are you offering them? You can offer a grab bag of stuff, which a lot of companies try and do, but you get very low utilization. Or you can do something like a stipend or a lifestyle spending account, which is what we build, which allows for complete flexibility so that every employee can do something different. So that even if you're offering wellness, you know, what the three of us think about as wellness is likely very different. I spend a lot of money at REI, like, they are basically, like, as big as my mortgage. I spend so much money there because I want backpacking gear. Wellness for you folks may be a little bit different. And so, allowing for that personalization so everybody can do something that matters to them. VICTORIA: Right. And I love that it comes from a problem you found in your own experience of working with early-stage startups and being on the executive level and finance and building teams from the ground up. So, I'm curious, what lessons did you find in your previous roles that were maybe ten times more important when you started your own company? AMY: I learned so much through all of my prior companies and pulled in the lessons of the things that worked really well but then also the things that it was, like, wow, I would definitely do that different. DEI is very important to us. I knew building a diverse team was going to be a competitive advantage for us. And none of my prior teams really met that mark. You know, most of them were Boston-based, the usual kind of profile of a tech company: 85%-95% White guys, mostly from MIT, you know, very, very talented, but also coached and trained by the same professors for the last 20 years. So, I knew I wanted different perspectives around the table, and that was going to be really key. So, looking at non-traditional backgrounds, especially as we were looking at hiring engineers, for instance, that was really interesting to me because I knew that would be part of our competitive advantage as we started building up this platform that is employee engagement but very much a tax compliance and budgeting tool as well. VICTORIA: I love hearing that. And it's something I've heard from actually thoughtbot's founder, Chad. That is something he wished he invested more in when he first started it. So, I'm curious as to how that's played out from when you started to where you are now. You said, I think, it's been six years, right? AMY: January will be six years, so five and a half-ish, I guess, right now. I mean, it was a stated part of what we were going to do from day one. All of my prior companies wanted that as well. I don't think anybody starts out and says, "Hey, I'd really love a one-note company." No one says that. Everybody thinks that they're doing the right things and hiring the best talent. But what you do is you end up hiring from your network, which usually looks just like you. And when you get to be, you know, 100, 150 people and you're looking around going, wow, we have some gaps here, it's really hard to fill them because who wants to be the first and the only of whatever? You know, I've been the only woman on most management teams. So, for us, it was day one, make it part of the focus and make sure we're really looking for the best talent and casting a very wide net. So, right now, we're sitting at 56% female and 36% people of color, and somewhere around 18%-19% LGBTQIA. So, we're trying to make sure that we're attracting all those amazing perspectives. And they're from people from around the country, which I also think is really important when you're building a tech company. Don't just build in areas where you're in your little tech bubble. If you want to build a product that actually services everyone, you need to have other kind of cultural and country perspectives as well. VICTORIA: Yeah. And that makes perfect sense for what you described earlier for Compt, that it is supposed to be flexible to provide health benefits or wellness benefits to anyone. And there can be a lot of different definitions of that. So, it makes sense that your team reflects the people that you're building for. AMY: Exactly. WILL: Yeah. How does that work? How does Compt accomplish that? Because I know early on I was doing nonprofits and I was a decent leader. But I struggle to get outside of myself, my own bubble if that makes sense. So, like, that was before I had kids. I had no idea what it meant to have kids and just the struggles and everything if you have kids. So, there's so many different things that I've learned over the years that, like, just people have their own struggles. So, how does Compt accomplish the diversity of a company? AMY: So, it's so interesting you mentioned that. I was on a podcast the other day with somebody who was, like, "You know, we didn't really think about our benefits and how important they were." And then, the founder who was the person on the podcast, and he was like, "But then I had kids. And suddenly, I realized, and we had this amazing aha moment." I'm like, well, it's great you had the aha moment. But let's back it up and do this before the founder has children. Sometimes you need to recognize the entire team needs something different and try and support them. My frustration with the tools out there are there are tools that are like, hey, we're a DE&I platform. We will help you with that. You know, we've got a benefit for fertility. We've got a benefit for, you know, elder care. There's all kinds of benefits. These are great benefits, but they're also very, very specific in how they support an employee. And it's very small moment in time, usually. Whereas with something like Compt, where we say, "Hey, we support family," your version of family, having children is very different from my version of family, where I don't have children, but we both have families. And we can both use that stipend in a way that is meaningful for us. What puts the employee back in charge, what matters in their lives, instead of the company trying to read everyone's mind, which is honestly a no-win situation for anyone. So, it just makes it very, very broad. VICTORIA: Yes. And I've been on both sides, obviously, as an employee, but also previously role of VP of Operations. And trying to design benefits packages that are appealing, and competitive, and fair is a challenging task. So -- AMY: It's impossible. It's impossible. [laughs] VICTORIA: Very hard. And I'm curious what you found in the early stages of Compt that was surprising to you in the discovery process building the product. AMY: So, for me, I mean, discovery was I am the buyer for this product. So, I wanted this about five years before I decided to go and build it. And I was talking to other finance and HR professionals going around going, "All right, are you feeling this exact same pain that I'm feeling? Because it is getting completely insurmountable." We were all being pitched all these different platforms and products. Everybody had something they wanted to sell through HR to help attract, and engage and retain talent and all the things, right? But there's no tracking. It's not taxed correctly. And ultimately, no matter what you bring in, maybe 2% to 3% of your team would use it. So, you're spending all this time and energy in putting all this love into wanting to support your team, and then nobody uses the stuff that you bring in because it just doesn't apply to them. And so, I realized, like, my pivotal moment was, all right, none of this is working. I've been waiting five years for somebody to build it. Let's go build something that is completely vendor-agnostic. There's no vendors on this platform by design because everyone ultimately wants something different. And, you know, through that process, we were, of course, pushed by many VCs who said, "Hey, build your marketplace, build your marketplace, you know, that's going to be your moat and your special sauce." And I said, "No, no, no, that's not what we're going to do here because that doesn't solve that problem." And we finally had the data to prove it, which is fantastic. You know, we actually did a sample of 8,700 people on our platform, and we watched them for a year. And said, "How many different vendors are these 8,700 people going to use?" Because that's the marketplace we'd have to build because we have 91% employee engagement. Nobody can beat us in the industry. We've got the highest employee engagement of any platform in our category. So, how many different vendors could 8,700 people use in that time period? Do you guys have any guesses how many they used in that time period to get to that engagement? VICTORIA: Out of 8,700 vendors? AMY: No, 8,700 employees. So, how many different vendors they used in that time period. VICTORIA: Hmm, like, per employee, I could see maybe, like, 10? I don't know. Two? AMY: We saw 27,000 different vendors used across all the employees, so 27,000 different unique vendors. So, on average, every employee wants three unique vendors that no one else is using. VICTORIA: Oh wow. WILL: Wow. VICTORIA: Yeah, okay. [laughter] Right. AMY: So, it's just you can't build that, I mean, you could build that marketplace, but nobody's going to visit that marketplace because nobody wants to scroll through 27,000 things. And so, it just keeps changing. You know, and I saw that even with the woman who started the company with me, you know, when she...we, of course, use Compt internally. And she started using her wellness stipend. You know, at first, she was doing 5Ks. So, she'd register for the race. She'd go train. She'd do all the things. Then she got pregnant and had a baby and started shifting over to prenatal vitamins, to Lamaze classes, to, you know, mommy yoga, things like that. Then once she had the baby, it shifted again. And so, it allows for a company to flow with an employee's lifecycle without having to get into an employee's life stage and, "Hey, what do you need at this moment in time?" Employees can self-direct that, so it makes it easier for employees and a lot easier for companies who are not trying to...we don't want to map out every single moment of our employee's personal life. We shouldn't be involved in that. And so, this is a way to support them but also give them a little space too. WILL: I absolutely love that because that is, yes, that is a flow. Like, before you have kids, it's, like, yes, I can go run these 5Ks; I can do this. When you have kids, it totally changes. Like, okay, what can I do with my kids? So, workout, or that's my away time. So, I love that it's an ebb and flow with the person. And they can pick their own thing, like -- AMY: Right. We're all adults. WILL: Yes. [laughs] AMY: I think I sat there going; why am I dictating someone's health and wellness regimen? I am not qualified for this on any stretch. Like, why am I dictating what somebody's mental health strategy should be? That's terrifying. You're adults. You work with your professionals. We'll support it. WILL: Yes. I remember at one company I worked for; they had this gym that they had, you know, got a deal with. And I was so frustrated because I was like, that's, like, 45 minutes away from my house. AMY: [laughs] Right. WILL: It's a perk, but it means absolutely nothing to me. I can't use it. So yes, yeah. [laughs] AMY: Well, and, like, not everybody wants to work, say...there was, you know, we see a lot of that is there's been a transition over time. COVID really changed that as people couldn't go to gyms, and companies shifted to stipends. But you may not want to work out with your co-workers, and that's okay, too. Like, it's okay to want to do your own thing and be in your own space, which is where we see this kind of decline of the, you know, on-site company gym, which, you know, some people just don't want to do that. VICTORIA: Yeah. So, I love that you stayed true to this problem that you found and you backed it up with data. So, you're like, here's clear data on, say, why those VCs' advice was bad [laughs] about the marketplace. AMY: Ill-informed. They needed data to see otherwise. [laughs] VICTORIA: Yeah. Well, I'm curious about your experience going through fundraising and starting up for Compt with your background as a CFO and how that was for you. AMY: It was...I naively thought it would be easier for me, and maybe it was because I had all this experience raising money as a CFO in all these prior companies. But the reality is that women receive less than 2% of all funding, even though we start 50% of the businesses. And if you look at, you know, Black female founders, they're receiving, like, 0.3, 0.5% of funding. Like, it's just...it's not nice out there. You know, on average, a lot of VCs are looking at 3,000, 4,000, or 5000 different companies a year and investing in 10. And so, the odds of getting funded are very, very low, which means that you're just going to experience a whole lot of unique situations as a female founder. I saw that you folks work with LOLA, which is fantastic. I'm a huge fan of LOLA and kind of what their founders put together. And I've heard some amazing things about the pitches that she's done for VCs and that she's just not shy about what she's building. And I really appreciate that. It's never a fun situation. And it gets easier the later stages because you have more metrics, and data, and all of that. And we ultimately found phenomenal investors that I'm very, very happy to have as part of our journey. But it's definitely...it's not pretty out there is the reality. VICTORIA: Right. And I saw that you either attended or put on an event about the gender investment gap, which I think is what you just referred to there as well. So, I'm curious how that conversation went and if there were any insights about what the industry can do to promote more investment in women and people of color founders. AMY: So, that's actually coming up August 10th, and so that's coming up in a few weeks that we're going to be hosting that. I'm actually part of a small group that is spearheading some legislation in Massachusetts to help change this funding dynamic for female founders, which I'm pretty excited about. And California also has some legislation they're looking at right now. In Mass, we're looking at how fair lending laws can apply to venture capital. There are laws on the books on how capital gets distributed when you look at the banking system. But there's virtually no regulation when you look at venture funding, and there's no accountability, and there's no metrics that anybody is being held to. I don't believe that you know, just because I pitched a VC that they should be funding me, you know, it needs to be part of their thesis and all of those things. But when you see so much disparity in what is happening out there, bias is coming into play. And there needs to be something that helps level that playing field. And so, that's where legislation comes into play and helps change that dynamic. So, pretty excited about the legislation that's before both the Senate and the Mass State House, likely going to be heard this November. So, we're pretty excited about that. Mid-Roll Ad: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what's important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode. WILL: So, Amy, you're talking a lot about diversity, inclusion, and just biases, and things like that. You're doing a great job with it. Your product is perfect for that because it reaches so many different levels. And I just want to ask you, why are you so passionate about it? Why is this so important to you? AMY: For me, personally, I am a lesbian founder. I am the only, you know, LGBTQ in many of my companies. And I'm always the, I mean, very frequently, the only woman in the boardroom, the only woman on the leadership team. That's not super comfortable, honestly. When you are having to fight for your place at the table, and you see things that could be done differently because you're bringing a different perspective, that, to me, is a missed opportunity for companies and for employees as well who, you know, there's amazing talent out there. If you're only looking at one flavor of talent, you're missing the opportunity to really build a world-class organization. And so, to me, it's both the personal side where I want to work with the best people. I want to work with a lot of different perspectives. I want to work with people who are bringing things to the table that I haven't thought about. But also, making sure that we're creating an environment where those people can feel comfortable as well, and so people don't feel marginalized or tokenized and have the ability to really bring their best selves to work. That's really important to me. It's a reflection of the world around us. It's bringing out the best in all of us. And so, for me, that's the environment I want to create in my own company. And it's also what I want to help companies be able to foster within their companies because I think a lot of companies really do want that. They just don't know how to go about it. They don't have actual tools to support a diverse team. You pay for things for the people you have, and then you hire more people like the people you have. We want to be a tool to help them expand that very organically and make it a lot easier to support a broader perspective of people. VICTORIA: I appreciate that. And it speaks to something you said earlier about 50% of the businesses are started by women. And so, if you're not investing in them, there's a huge market and huge potential and opportunity there that's just not -- AMY: The economic miss is in the trillions, is what's been estimated. Like, it's an absolute economic miss. I mean, you also have the statistics of what female-founded companies do. We tend to be more profitable. We tend to be more capital efficient. We tend to, you know, have better outcomes. It's just so the economics of it are there. It's just trying to get folks to understand where their biases are coming into play and funding things that may be a little outside their comfort zone. VICTORIA: Right. That's going to be a big project to undo all of that. So, each piece that works towards it to break it down, I think, is really important. And it seems like Compt is a great tool for companies to start working towards that, at least in the equity of their benefits, which is -- [laughs] AMY: Exactly. Because, I mean, if people can't use a perk, then it's inequitable compensation. And if you have inequitable compensation, you're already going down that path. You end up with wage gaps, and then you end up with promotion gaps. And all these things feed into each other. So, we're just trying to chip away at one piece of the problem. There's lots of places that this needs to be adjusted and changed over time. But we want to at least chip away at that one piece where this piece of compensation can be equitable and support everyone. WILL: Yeah, I love that. I was looking at your LinkedIn. And it looks like you've been almost, later this year, maybe six years of Compt. What was some of the early traction? Like, how was it in the early days for you? AMY: It was an interesting transition for me, going from CFO and COO over to the CEO role. That was easier in some ways than I thought it was going to be and harder in other ways. You know, on the easy side, I've already done fundraising. I understand how to write a business model, and look at financial plans, and make sure the concept is viable and all the things. But I also am not an engineer. I'm not a product designer. And so needed to make sure we immediately surrounded ourselves with the right talent and the right help to make sure that we could build the right product, pull the things out of my brain that are conceptual but definitely not product design. No one wants me touching product design. I've been barred from all codebases in this company. They don't want me touching anything, with good reason. And so, making sure that we have those right people to build and design the software in a way that functionally makes sense. VICTORIA: I think that is great that...I laughed when you said that you are barred from touching any of the code. [laughs] It's like, you're able to...I think a strong leader recognizes when other people have the expertise and makes space for them to do their best work. I also see that, at the same time, you've been a mentor with the MassChallenge group. And I'm curious if you have a most frequent piece of advice that you give to founders and people starting out building great products. AMY: The biggest piece of advice, I think, is to make sure you're taking care of yourself through this process. It's an exhausting process to build a company. And there's always way more that you should be doing every day than you can possibly get done. And if you just completely absorb yourself in it, you're going to end up burning out. So, making sure that you rest, that you still make time to exercise and to move, and that you spend time with family. All of those things, I think, are really, really important. That's been part of our core tenets. From day one, I said, "No more than 40 to 45 hours a week." It doesn't mean I'm not thinking about this business far more than 45 hours a week, but I'm not going to sit behind a computer that many hours in a week because I will burn out. And if I'm out and I'm reading something, or I'm, you know, going for a walk, I'm going to have moments of inspiration because I can actually have those creative thoughts firing when I'm not just putting out fires. And so, I think that's really, really important for founders to make sure they take that time and allow their brains to clear a little bit so that they can build more efficiently, build faster, and have really good critical reasoning skills. WILL: I love that you not only have the product to, you know, help taking time off, but you also are preaching it per se, like, take time off. Don't work more than 40-45 hours. Like, take care of yourself. So, I love that advice that you're giving is right in the message with your product. So, I love it. AMY: Thank you. I do hammer home with this team. What we build is obviously very, very important to me, but how we build this company is equally important. We spend just as much time thinking about how we're building and designing this company internally as we do about our product because they need to be a virtuous cycle between the two, quite frankly. And so, if they aren't aligned, we're going to fail. WILL: Definitely. Wow. Awesome. What does success look like for you and Compt in the next, you know, six months to a year? AMY: For us, it's really about reaching as many people as possible. So, how do we have an impact on as many lives as possible and help people be able to access this piece of their compensation? What is interesting right now is we're in a really interesting moment. The tech industry is going through...shall we call it an awakening? Where money is tighter. There's been some layoffs. You know, it's just a very different world in tech right now. And everybody's in a little bit of a holding pattern to figure out, okay, what's next? What we're seeing across our portfolio of companies is that there's a lot of industries that are, for the first time, really thinking about how do we retain folks? How do we think about hiring in a new way? So, industries like construction and manufacturing. Industries that never had employee kind of lifestyle benefits or perks they're taking a look at that because unemployment is so, so low. And so, for the first time ever, we have the ability to have an impact on groups that never had access to professional development, to wellness, to things like that. And that's really exciting because you can have such a huge, impactful moment where people have just been without for so long. And so, that's pretty exciting for us. VICTORIA: You're touching upon a topic that I've thought about before, where in the tech industry, we're used to having a lot of benefits and perks and that not every industry is the same way. So, I'm curious; you mentioned construction and some other groups that are looking to adopt more of these benefits because unemployment is so low. I'm curious, like, if there are any patterns or things that you see, like, specific industries that are more interested than others, or what's going on there? AMY: Our portfolio of tech companies are only about...they're less than 40% of our customers, actually. So, a relatively low percentage of our customers come from the tech industry. What we find is that healthcare systems this is really important. As you're thinking about how you're going to retain nursing staff, it is incredibly difficult. And so, we see a lot of movement in the healthcare space. We see a lot of movement, again, across manufacturing and construction, you know, financial services. Pretty much anybody who is struggling to hire and is worried about retaining is trying to figure out what's my strategy? How do I do this in the least expensive way possible but reach everyone? Because those employee engagement metrics are so consistently important to look at. And most platforms and things that you could be doing out there are going to give you a 2% to 3% utilization. So, it's very, very low. You know, wellness is by far the most common use case we see companies putting in place. It's good for employees. It's good for the employer. That's by far the most important or the most common. But we also see things like family, and just more of a whole well-being kind of concept as well, so beyond wellness, so allowing for that broader reach. We're also seeing industries where people are starting to age out. So, we've got five generations at work right now. There's industries where folks have historically stayed forever. You know, you've got the people who have been there 20-30 years. Well, those same industries are now sitting there going, all right, how do I get the next two generations to come in here? Because it's such an old-guard and old approach. We've got to change things up. And so, we're seeing a pretty big cultural shift happen within a lot of these more nascent industries. WILL: Yeah. I can definitely see how that would be tough going from, you know, you said five generations are currently in the workforce? AMY: Yep. WILL: I didn't even think about that. Wow. AMY: Yeah, you got a lot of different parts of the life cycle. You know, think about professional development. Professional development for a 22-year-old is very different from professional development for a 65-year-old. But both are in the workplace, and both want to keep learning. It's just what your needs are and what you need to learn. And how you want to learn is going to be very, very different. WILL: Wow. So true. I love how you're talking about your leadership and just the way you lead. I can just hear it in what you're saying. What are some of your core values that drive you every day? AMY: One of the big ones, and it probably goes back to, you know, I'm sure, birth placement, whatever. I'm an oldest child, all the things that come with being an oldest child. But fairness is a really big one for me. And so, it's thinking about how we apply that as a company, so equitable compensation falls under that. Making sure that we've got a team that is balanced and diverse is really important to me. You know, thinking, you know, our core values are balance and belonging. That runs through absolutely everything that we do and is core and central to it. Because, again, how we build this company is just as important to me as what we're building. And so, making sure that we hold true to those values is critical because we have amazing people, and they need to feel supported as well. VICTORIA: Well, that really comes through in everything that you say and that we've talked about so far today, and I really appreciate that. And I'm curious if you could go back in time to when you first started Compt and tell yourself any piece of advice or information; what would you say? AMY: That piece of advice has changed over time; I will tell you that. The one that is most recent for me is really because we're an HR tech platform, and we service, you know, an entire organization, is really thinking about how you support different industries at different moments in time, the concept of product-market fit. When you're that type of a platform, which there aren't many, there's not many platforms that sit across an entire organization, but compensation is one of them. You need to be thinking about which industries are struggling to hire, which are struggling to retain at this moment in time. And so, I don't think there's one place, like, hey, we have product-market fit, now we can scale. I think that's a misnomer for our part of the HR tech space. And so, it's constant experimentation on go-to-market strategy and constant kind of adjustment as markets ebb and flow over time. WILL: What is some of your biggest hurdles right now or even in the future that you can see coming? AMY: If I had a crystal ball, life would definitely be easier. I'd love to know when this economic cycle is going to shift and, you know when things get a little bit easier for companies. You know, HR leaders and finance leaders are not having the most fun at this moment in time. They're being tasked with making everybody happy but on very small budgets, and so they're really challenged with that. And they're really burnt out, and they're exhausted. So, I'm looking forward to a shift so when people can get back to feeling a little bit physically better. But also, it just helps navigate a market and be better able to support your employees. VICTORIA: I've been thinking about that question recently, what I would tell my past self, and I think it's mostly, like, food related. [laughter] AMY: Ooh, interesting. VICTORIA: Use better vinegars, like, invest in fancier olive oil. [laughs] AMY: So, my new luxury pro-tip is you buy a $7 bunch of eucalyptus at the grocery store, and you tie it above your shower head. I'm not kidding; you will feel like you're at a spa. It costs $7. I learned it because I was at some fancy resort. One of my investors, you know, paid for us to go to a conference that I was not paying for. And I was like, that is genius. You suddenly feel like you are in someplace fancy, and it was seven bucks. It's amazing. WILL: Yes. VICTORIA: That sounds incredible. I'm going to do that. WILL: Same. [laughter] VICTORIA: [inaudible 34:35] buy some. No, it's so good. Do you have any questions for us, Amy? AMY: Yeah. I mean, what trends are you seeing in the market right now? Like, what types of companies are being developed? Where do you see growth happening in the market? VICTORIA: That's probably a better question for me. As a managing director, I spend more time networking and going to events. And it's interesting being in San Diego. There's a big biotech startup here. So, I went to an EvoNexus Demo Day and saw the things that people were using. And there seemed to be a trend of using AI and machine learning to create better health outcomes, whether that's for predictors for which people will respond better to anti-cancer drugs, or, you know, how do we monitor the release of drugs for someone's system who's, you know, going through methadone in therapy. So, it's really interesting. I think that you know, you mentioned that there's not the same amount of money in the tech market, but I think there is still a lot of work being done to solve real problems that people have. So yeah, I'm really curious to see those types of projects and which ones are going to be successful, and how much the AI trend will really fade out. Like, clearly, in some use cases, you can see how beneficial it could be. And other times, it seems like it's kind of just like slapped on there for -- AMY: Agreed. VICTORIA: Marketing purposes, so... AMY: That's really just a database query. It's not AI. [laughs] VICTORIA: Right. [laughs] It's interesting because, you know, I just had lunch with a bunch of other CTOs in San Diego, and we were talking about AI, and some of the inherent risks of it, and the damage it can cause. And I always like to bring it back to, like, there are some people who are already harmed by these trends. And we have to work around that. Like, there is some, you know, greater supposed existential threat with AI that I think is rather unlikely. But if we think about that too much and not focus on the current harm that's being done, then that's, you know, more dangerous than the other one. AMY: Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, there's definitely, I mean, even just with facial recognition and how that's applied and what that's used for. I mean, any software that is built with people has bias. And so, whatever biases they're bringing into it is the bias that's going to exist in the software. And so, there's...we already are starting from, you know, going back to our earlier conversation, if companies are not diverse and not building for really diverse perspectives, they're inherently going to build bias software, whether or not, I mean, I don't think that's anybody's intention. But that's what's going to happen because you just didn't think about things you didn't know. VICTORIA: Right. And, of course, I'm here in Southern California. There's the strikes for the actors and writers' strike happening a few hours north of us. And they were actually, you know, for some actors, signing away their rights to their likeness. AMY: Wow. VICTORIA: And then they could make an AI image and -- AMY: Wow. You could just create an entire movie with somebody's image and dub in a voice, and suddenly you don't need actors. VICTORIA: Right. And it's, of course, more often non-White actors and models who are being replaced. And so, I think that's a very interesting trend that people may not have thought about yet. AMY: Fascinating. VICTORIA: So yeah, I mean, having people on your leadership team who are thinking about these [laughs] different types of issues, like, yeah, I think it's really important. And then also, from, like, a data privacy perspective, all the laws that are coming out and that have come out. And I think that some founders and CTOs are really struggling with how to comply and protect everyone's data that way. AMY: No. It's something we think about a lot because we have the potential to have access to a lot of employee data. We take a very minimalist approach stated, not a big data play. That's not what we're here for. That's not what we're trying to do, this mountain of data on people, and then we'll figure out how to monetize it. We want to build something a little bit different. And so using only data that needs to be used so that we can truly support people with what our actual goal and aim is, rather than having that be a secondary cause. VICTORIA: Yeah. And I wanted to ask you about that actually because you have SOC 2 and GDPR compliance. And it's a topic that I think a lot of founders know that security is important, but it can be a significant investment. So, I'm curious your trade-offs and your timing for when you went for those compliance frameworks. AMY: We went early for it. I mean, so our platform, I mean, we're integrated with payroll platforms. We're touching employee data. So, we went for it early because we knew that it was going to be important, and it's a lot easier to do it before you make a mess than it is after the fact. I've done SOC 2 compliance in two prior companies. It's not fun. It is not my most fun thing that I've ever done. Fortunately, there are geniuses out there who built platforms to make this very, very easy now. We use a platform called Vanta that is absolutely incredible, made it super easy to get SOC 2 compliant, go through our audits, do all the things, so that, at least, is a lot easier. But it was something that we needed the funding to invest in. It's not inexpensive. But we knew that it was going to be critical because people need to feel that their data is secure and that you know what you're doing, and that you're not just kind of flying by the seat of your pants. There's a lot of tech companies that operate on, we'll figure out the tax, or we'll figure out the law. We'll figure out the compliance later. And that's been a stated part of their mission. That's just not the way I'm going to operate. And that doesn't work very well when you're dealing with HR, quite frankly, or finance because we have to comply with laws. So, getting ahead of that early was part of our strategy. VICTORIA: That makes sense. Your finance background making it clear what the legal implications are. [laughs] AMY: Exactly. Like, I'm not messing around with the IRS. Nobody wants to get audited by the IRS. It's not fun. Let's just keep things tax compliant. Chances are you're not going to get audited by the IRS. But if you are a tech company, if you do want to go public, if you do want to be acquired likely from a public company, you have to have these things in order because otherwise, it's coming off your purchase price or your stock price because you've got disclosures you've got to put out there, so little hidden, nasty gotchas. And it can be a six-year lookback period. So, you're like, oh, I'll worry about it later. Six years is a long time. And if you start messing around with that, it gets very, very expensive to clean up. So, just do it right from the beginning. You know, the same way you're doing payroll correctly now, invest a little bit, and it makes it a lot easier. VICTORIA: Yeah, I agree. And I think the tooling that's out there makes it a little bit easier; at least then, you know you have the confidence that your data is protected. Especially if you're a non-technical founder, I can imagine that makes you feel better that things are the way they should be. AMY: Exactly. Somebody has looked at this thing. Somebody is making sure that it's working the way it's supposed to. You know, that definitely helps when you're a non-technical founder, or just not a tax expert, or a legal expert, you know, around these things. It's not even the technical founders that have to worry about it. Data comes in all kinds of forms. VICTORIA: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. AMY: This has been a fantastic conversation. I've really enjoyed it. VICTORIA: Well, thank you. WILL: Same. VICTORIA: I've enjoyed it as well. I really appreciate you taking the time. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. WILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Amy Spurling.

Alaina Percival is the Co-Founder and CEO of Women Who Code, with a mission to empower diverse women to excel in technology careers. Alaina delves into the origin and mission of Women Who Code, highlighting its community building, free technical events, and collaboration with companies to promote diversity in hiring. Victoria adds her personal experience with the organization, emphasizing its positive impact on her career. They discuss the challenges faced while expanding Women Who Code, including the need for systems and processes to manage growth. Alaina recounts stories of discrimination faced by women in tech and stresses the need for continued support and encouragement. The conversation also touches on the financial benefits of diversity and the alignment of Valor Ventures with Women Who Code's values. This discussion offers a detailed look into the women in tech movement, the importance of community, and the drive to create a more equitable industry. It serves as a reflection on both the strides made in fostering diversity and the work still needed to create a truly inclusive technology field. __ Women Who Code (https://www.womenwhocode.com/) Join the Women Who Code Slack! (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSctj9HJr-5yadDbKYygBYBfNUWmjgODlkp8lgLou26AedIkuQ/viewform) Women Who Code Podcast (https://www.womenwhocode.com/podcast) Follow Women Who Code on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/womenwhocode), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/women-who-code/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/womenwhocode/), GitHub (https://github.com/WomenWhoCode), Twitter (https://twitter.com/WomenWhoCode), or YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/c/WomenWhoCodeGlobal?themeRefresh=1) Follow Alaina Percival on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alainapercival/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/alaina). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Alaina Percival, Venture Partner at Valor Ventures and Co-Founder and CEO of Women Who Code, with a mission to empower diverse women to excel in technology careers. Alaina, thank you for joining us. ALAINA: Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. VICTORIA: I'm thrilled to have you as well. I reached out. As you know, I was previously a Director of Women Who Code D.C. and helped to organize our DevOps and cloud series when I lived there. And it really had a huge impact on my career. So, I'm just super psyched to talk to you today. What's going on in your world, Alaina? ALAINA: So, in addition to my full-time job of working with Women Who Code, I'm also a mom of two young children, and so they're currently three and five. And so, it's summer. We've got summer camp. Every week is a different program with different details and things that you have to read and stay up on. It's a lot of additional project management added on over the summer. I'm looking forward to getting back to the school year, where I can kind of focus on just one role. WILL: That's amazing. And I can totally relate because I have a four, a three, and a one-year-old. Yes, it's a different story when you have to, like you said, project manage around them. So, that's amazing that you're wearing so many hats, and you're doing that. Hats off to you. ALAINA: Same to you. [laughter] WILL: Victoria, what about you? What's going on in your world? VICTORIA: Well, it is summertime at the beach, so all the kids are out. [laughs] It's busy. But that means that you know, the weather is warming up. It's tempting to try to go surfing again, so we'll see if that ends up happening anytime soon. But no, I'm hanging out. I'm local. I'm kind of done traveling for a little bit, so not until I go out to Outer Banks to visit my baby niece and nephew in August. So that's where I'm at right now. I'm kind of hunkered in trying to survive without air conditioning here and get through the summer. [laughs] WILL: You don't have AC? VICTORIA: I do not. Yeah, there's a lot of houses around here just never were built with it. I have heat, but I have no air conditioning. ALAINA: Are you being hit with the heat wave that's happening? VICTORIA: Yes. But it's still very mild. We're spoiled here for sure on weather. WILL: [laughs] VICTORIA: It's like 77, and I'm like, ugh, it's so hot. [laughs] WILL: I'm in Florida, and it amazes me. So, I got up early, around 7:00 o'clock, to go out for a run, and it's, like, 87 degrees. And it feels like almost 100 at 7:00 a.m. And I'm like -- VICTORIA: Oof. WILL: How? [laughs] Like, the sun is barely out, and it's already reaching 100. So yeah. ALAINA: I feel you. I'm in Atlanta. Yesterday, I had an in-person meeting. Typically, we're entirely remote. So, I was wearing real pants [laughs], and it was a hard day. We're not quite as hot as Florida. We are in the low 90s. But yeah, this weather is for real. WILL: Yes. [laughter] VICTORIA: That is the...yeah, working in person again in a hot climate. [laughs] I forgot the challenges of that of, like, trying to navigate life while having to be fully clothed is difficult in that kind of weather. So, I'm glad. I hope you all find some ways to stay cool and to entertain your children [laughs] so that you have some sanity and can get through the summer. I've also been really interested in the European model of just taking five weeks off in the summer. Doesn't that sound nice? WILL: Yes. [laughs] ALAINA: Yeah. I started my career off in Germany. I worked for Puma. Their headquarters is right outside of Nuremberg in a town called Herzogenaurach. And people really do take the whole month off August. And, in fact, you would even separate out the salaries. So, you got something called urlaubsgeld, which was vacation money. So, you would get kind of a little bonus going into August, and then everybody would take off. So, I agree with you. We should be doing that. VICTORIA: Yeah, we should be doing that. And I'm so excited. Maybe we can segue into, like, your background and how you got started. How did you go from there to founding Women Who Code? ALAINA: Yeah, so after working at Puma, I somewhat came back to the United States. I did a dual degree program, an MBA where I was studying between Atlanta, so I could get back in the United States, spend some time with my family, and then also the Sorbonne in Paris. And I did an MBA and a degree in organizational management, Master's in organizational management. Then I went to work for really small ones, performance wear company. And that was more, like, a startup because you really had to think outside of the box. You know, you're a small $10 million a year company, and Nike and Mizuno, you know, these big companies are your competitors. So, I had the opportunity to move out to San Francisco. It was one of the cities that was always on my list of, hey, if you get a chance to do it, go for it. And I did. So, I moved out there, and I kind of hit a bit of a wall with my career, an unexpected wall because up until that point, I had just this really, you know, successful early career. I got out there, and they're, like, Puma. You know, you haven't worked for Microsoft, or Twitter, or Facebook, or Google. Who are you? So, I started learning to code just to transition my skill set to help me understand the culture and the language and just getting more involved in the tech community. And I was still struggling a little bit in figuring out my transition pathway and got more and more involved with Women Who Code and started, you know, spending my nights and weekends. And finally, I was at a small startup that had gotten acquired, so I had my official tech credibility. And I went to work for one of the top technical recruiting firms, executive recruiting firms in the Bay Area, as their head of developer outreach. And I largely chose that role because they were allowing me to run their philanthropic arm, and I focused that around supporting underrepresented communities, you know, get a leg up in the tech community. And then, while I was there, I was working with CTOs, vice presidents of engineering, directors of engineering on a day-to-day basis. And I started learning what they were doing in their career to help develop and cultivate the success that they were having, and I started bringing that knowledge and programming into Women Who Code. And that's where our mission around seeing diverse women excel in technology careers came about is, you know, that piece of retaining and seeing diverse women excelling was an area that wasn't really the focus at the time. And I feel like it sounds funny now because it's such a big piece of conversation. But that was the beginning. VICTORIA: Yeah, it's so interesting that your experience from being in a startup and then how you moved up into being really involved in the hiring and the process of how women...how anyone would actually, like, move up in their career led you to have that background to found Women Who Code. And for people who maybe don't know, [laughs] no, I certainly know what it is. Can you talk a little bit more about what it offers to women and what it offers to companies who are looking to hire diverse women? ALAINA: For individuals, we are the largest and most active community of diverse technologists. We have close to 350,000 members. We're serving members across 147 countries. And we're producing close to 2,000 free technical events every single year, so that's about an average of 5 per day. Once those events take place, if you happen to miss them if you happen to not be in a location where they're having them in person, we're putting a lot of that on our YouTube channel. So, you can go back when you have time, when you're available, still invest in yourself and learn some of these technical and career-related skills. You can also, you know, when you think about, say, the 2,000 talks that are being delivered at Women Who Code, the majority of them are being led by and delivered by diverse technologists. So, we're creating role models and helping people who are on their career path have a sense of belonging, see a pathway to success. People who are thinking about the career path see themselves represented as thought leaders, as leaders in the tech industry. And that sense of belonging, that sense of drive, is just so important to be able to continue on in your career. But we work with companies. So, Women Who Code is dedicated to accessibility. All of our programming is free or scholarship accessible. And so, what we do is we work with companies, and we do this for two reasons: for programmatic reasons. Because we know that if companies develop strong diversity, equity, and inclusion, and belonging practices, that we will reach our mission and vision so much faster than if we work with every individual in the world. But it also creates an opportunity for us to be able to support the community. So, we work with companies to sponsor Women Who Code to donate to support Women Who Code's programming. We have our first-ever walk coming up, so a walk, run, roll called Women Who Code to the Finish Line. And we're going to be having that in September of this year. And that's going to be an opportunity for the stakeholders. You know, often, people who aren't in our community but absolutely support us say, "How can we help?" And so, companies can form teams and go and walk, run, roll to change the face of the tech industry. Right now, we're also in a position where the tech industry has been doing a lot of layoffs, so there's a lot of instability. And so, when that happens, our programming thrives. So, people are coming to our events in high numbers. People are participating in our programming. People are visiting our job board. It's the time when companies are stepping back and pulling back on their funding and things like that. So, I just encourage every single company to...if you have a great technical job open, make sure you're sharing it with the Women Who Code community because we have incredible technologists. They deserve access to companies that are willing to support them and the best roles that are available in the industry today. WILL: Alaina, I just want to honestly and truly say this, what you're doing is amazing. Having a background in nonprofit, over 140 companies, over 300,000 in your membership, and it's an international nonprofit. It's truly amazing what you're doing and helping women find their role and help them become better. I'm truly just blown away by, you know, you started in September 2011, so you're coming up on 12 years this year. And just 12 years as a nonprofit and doing this, share with us how was it received at the very beginning? Because I feel like that was a different time that we're in right now. ALAINA: Yeah, it started off as a meetup, just a community group in San Francisco. And it was incredible. It felt like our little secret. And we were spending time together. We were learning. We were building connections. And just it was this incredible community. And then, the world started talking about, hey, we need to teach girls to code. We need to teach women to code. And we were this community of people in the industry. Our average age at Women Who Code is 30, so 50% of our members are currently in technical roles. So, we had this moment of, hey, we need to elevate the voice of those who are in the industry right now, alongside teaching girls to code and teaching women to code. Because if you miss out on that, it actually becomes a threat to the women in the industry who, every time you hear "Teach women to code," you're saying she doesn't already know how to do it. And we had so many people in our community who already did and already had to kind of prove themselves on a regular basis or constantly underestimated. In the early years, a Women Who Code leader who told me that she was managing a booth at a conference, and everyone was an engineer except for one recruiter, and the recruiter's name was Brian. Someone walked up to her and said, "Are you Brian?" Because it was easier to imagine that her name was Brian than that she was one of the engineers at the table. And so, kind of going through this, we said, hey, we need to elevate our voices. We need to elevate the needs of women in the industry. And it feels being in it day by day, that nothing's happening. But when you look back over 13-15 years, you see that parental leave policies have improved significantly, that we see numbers in leadership going up across the board, that it's part of the conversation that relatively standard and tech companies to have DEI roles within the organization, within the people team. And so, these are not enough. It's just the beginning. But it is a lot that's taken place over the past 10 to 15 years. VICTORIA: I agree. And I can relate as someone who was a project manager working in a technology space. Was it back in, like, 2013 or something? And you'd go to tech meetups, and most likely, I would be the only woman there. [laughs] But then, with Women Who Code, my friend invited me to go to a Ruby event, and it was, you know, all women. [laughs]. There was a woman who was even giving the instruction. And so, that was just a really cool feeling after having been out networking and feeling kind of isolated to really find a lot of people who are similar to you. And I remember part of the narrative at that time when we were talking about increasing inclusion and diversity in technology; there was a narrative that, well, there just aren't as many women in tech. And being a part of Women Who Code, I could be able to, like, answer back to say, "Well, there actually is a lot of women in tech." And it's the bigger problem that women would get started because they're interested in the industry and having good careers, but then they would fall out midway. So, there just wasn't enough progression in their careers. There wasn't enough support on the parental leave side, or there just wasn't enough community to keep people interested, like, when you're the only one. And many of our members they were the only women in their company, and then Women Who Code was where they found people they could really connect with. So, I just think it's interesting that it solves a particular problem where we would have women who are just interested in learning to code who would come to our events. And then, we had women who were actively coding in their jobs and teaching others in these leadership roles within the community to advance their own careers. And that's certainly what I did, and how I broke into executive leadership was, like, I'm a director at Women Who Code and I've got all this other leadership experience. And I'm bringing that network with me. It really increases your value to employers and demonstrates your leadership abilities. ALAINA: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. The program which we kind of fell into, it's our volunteers, is our program that I'm actually most proud of at Women Who Code. And it's probably because I get to know our volunteers because I know so many people's lives and careers are impacted by our programming. But that leadership development, that practice-based leadership that our volunteers are able to obtain, the doors that get open, and just like you said, it opened doors. And I remember it hit me when one of our volunteers told me she was interviewing with SpaceX. And one of the reasons they said they were excited to talk to her was because of her Women Who Code leadership experience. And I just thought to myself, we're doing something right. [laughs] VICTORIA: Yeah, absolutely. And I think maybe part of Will's question before, too, is, like, did it always feel like you were doing something right? Or did it all just come together naturally? Or what kind of bumps did you initially hit when you were getting things off the ground? ALAINA: Yeah. When we first got started and realized, hey, we need to make Women Who Code more accessible, we were doing everything in a very manual way. We needed to adapt to building systems and processes, and that's not the fun part of running a volunteer organization. And when you're moving so fast, it means slowing things down a little bit to be able to make sure that you can do things better, more consistently, more efficiently, but it's so critical. And so, I would say we kind of launched outside of the Bay Area in a couple of cities. And it just snowballed until we expanded into 20 to 40 more cities within probably a year outside of that. And we just really needed to catch up on creating systems and processes, which is not beautiful at all, but it's an important part of running a real business, a real company. WILL: That's amazing. First off, I just want to say I am so sorry that the world we live in looks down upon women or anybody. So, I'm just so sorry that, like, the story you said about Brian, asking the lady that. I feel like that's so disrespectful. I am so sorry if you ever got treated that way or anything like that. And so, I was going to ask this question, and then I kind of answered it. But the question was, do you think women are at a place to where kind of equal in tech? And I kind of answered my own question and said, "No." And so, I want to reframe it. What do you think it will take to continue to help the women get to that level of where it should be? ALAINA: It's going to take a lot of things. But the fastest and easiest way to create more equality for women and girls in the tech industry is by investing and supporting the incredible talent that is in the industry today. We need them to thrive. We need them to stay in their careers. We need them to become leaders with power and influence to create more equity in the industry so that when future generations are coming in, they're coming into an industry that is less broken for them, that is more welcoming, that shows and demonstrates more opportunity. This is one of the most exciting and innovative industries to be a part of. So many things are being shaped and built for the first time that are systems that are going to be the foundations for years or centuries to come. And so, it's more important now than ever for us to be thinking about bringing equity into that so we're not dealing with technical debt, where we're starting from a system that has more equality to it. VICTORIA: I really appreciate that perspective. And I'm curious how that relates to your work at Valor Ventures as well. ALAINA: Valor Ventures is very aligned with the values of Women Who Code, which is why I chose it. I am passionate about creating more equality and opportunity for diverse individuals to thrive and succeed in general but via the tech industry. And so, when I move into focusing on entrepreneurs and focusing on seeing diverse entrepreneurs succeed in building thriving organizations, I see an opportunity to have someone who will be thinking earlier about the policies and the practices that are going to build more equitable teams, products that are really for all of their users. VICTORIA: I think that's a great mindset. And it reminds me that when we talked about, like, the importance of diversity, and equity, and inclusion, that it's not purely a moral thing, even though morally we know we want to support and be inclusive, but that it's also good business strategy [laughs], just by the value of having different perspectives and different types of people, and then being able to have your products be accessible for a diverse group as well, right? ALAINA: Yeah, the data shows teams that are diverse are smarter. Companies that have women represented in leadership they have a stronger ROI. There's business reason behind it. There's certainly a social-moral reason that it just should take place. But, you know, if you need to come back to your shareholders or your investors, there's financial data around it. WILL: Yeah, I totally agree on all that, like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. MID-ROLL AD: Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build, and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future. thoughtbot Liftoff brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices. Make the right decisions for tomorrow today. Get in touch at thoughtbot.com/liftoff. WILL: What have you seen hold back women in this space? And the reason I'm asking this question is because there are some biases out there, and, at times, we don't even realize it. For example, I know we have parental leave. And before I had kids, I didn't understand parental leave at all. But then, now that I have kids, I'm like, oh, it is not even close to being enough time during that time, you know, four or five hours of sleep at night, just all those things. So, in your experience, what have you seen? And hopefully, we can use this as a learning opportunity for anybody that just may be blind to it. What have you seen that kind of holds it back? ALAINA: That's holding back, like, implementing specific policies and practices or? WILL: Yes, holding back the policies, or maybe women not being as prevalent in tech roles any of those areas. ALAINA: So, sort of two different approaches with that is I'm optimistic. I think most companies, yes, they care about the bottom line, but they want to be doing the right thing if it's easy. Leaders like me we need to put pressure on companies making better decisions. But also, industry leaders and organizations out there need to be able to make it easier for companies to make the decisions that are going to create more equity inside of their organization. I know that's taking the responsibility off of them a little bit. But companies won't make commitments. They won't do the hard things if they don't know how to do it. And so, the easier that we can make it for them to make the right decision, the more likely they are to make the right decision. VICTORIA: I think that people want to do the right thing if it's easy is a really succinct way to explain a lot of, like, social and moral [laughs] issues right now, right? Most people generally want to do the right thing, but it can be complex. I'm curious about, speaking of complexity, for Women Who Code, going through, you know, being an organization that was built around in-person events, and then having COVID happen, so, like, what were some of the challenges of the last few years and changes that you experienced along the way? ALAINA: Yeah, when COVID hit, that was a big moment for the whole world. It was certainly really hard for organizations that rely on in-person activities. You know, our major conference supplied a third of our operating revenue. Our members were going to, you know, close to 2,000 in-person events. And so, we had to adapt just like everyone else. The organizations and the companies that adapted were the ones that thrived. So, we had to completely retrain all of our volunteers from doing in-person events to be able to create digital events for our community. We had to figure out how to produce major events, and conferences, and hackathons and do it in a remote way. And then, of course, there's the day-to-day that absolutely everyone had, and that was, you know, just your team went from meeting in person to everyone being remote. And some of the great things that came out about that is we were serving members in about 26 countries and about 80 cities, and now we serve members in 147 countries. It just made it accessible that if you don't happen to be in a location where an event is happening and you also don't happen to have childcare, be able to participate, that you are still able to participate in an online setting. And then, what we saw with being able to start moving more of, you know, those talks that were being delivered to our YouTube channel, it then became even more accessible. People spent about five years of life watching our YouTube trainings, and that's time people are investing in themselves. And when I say they did it, and I'm talking about in 2022. So, our YouTube channel, our trainings, they continue to grow, and then our online events continue to happen. But luckily, now we are able to start going back in person. And it's, again, just so amazing to be able to see the people you haven't seen in a long time, feel that feeling that is just a little bit different for an in-person event. WILL: That's amazing. So, from, say, 2019, 2020 to now, it went from 80 countries to over 140, just because of the pivot to go more, like, YouTube and tech. Is that kind of what you're saying about the growth of it? ALAINA: Yeah, so about 80 cities, so about 25 countries to serving members in 147 countries. WILL: That's amazing. ALAINA: Yeah, a tremendous amount of growth and creating accessibility around the globe. Previously, we were really only able to focus on tech hubs that had an ecosystem to support it. But, you know, just because you're from a rural area of your state or from a country in the Global South, you still deserve access to this incredible community and all of the free accessible programming that Women Who Code has to offer. When we have a conference, we have people from 88 countries participating. And when you sign into the networking session, you're going to hop on the phone with someone from Nigeria, someone from Bangladesh, someone from your same city, and it's just such an incredible experience to be able to have that global focus and reach. WILL: Wow, that is so amazing. So, let's talk about right now. What does your next milestone look like, you know, in the next six months or next year? What does that look like for you? ALAINA: As I mentioned before, one of the big challenges we've had this year is our programming is going so, so well, but our funding has pulled back a little bit. And so, we're working to diversify our revenue strategy a little bit and have a traditional nonprofit walk that we've never done before. And it's a remote walk, so anyone all over the world can participate just like you can with our digital events. But this has been something new for us. Because when we went through it during COVID, again, you know, you'd get on the call with all of your partners. You know, the world is going through something, and you kind of say, oh yeah, we're in it together. But you don't see the grace that you saw in 2020 and sort of the camaraderie, and we're in this together, and we're going to give you space and support you, you know, in every way that we can that, you know, is just really missing this time around. You know, we have members who absolutely need support in their careers right now. And so, it's navigating through something different. VICTORIA: Yeah. And I guess talking more about inclusivity, like, we have all this free content, and it is Women Who Code. But I remember when I was an organizer, I had a few people ask me, "Well if I'm a man, can I come to your event?" And I was like, "Yes, it's open to everyone," right? Like, it's promoting women, and it's about women growing in their careers. And certainly, if that's not also your intention with attending the event, you should keep that in mind and make sure you're leaving space for other people. But I also really appreciated that it's open for everyone and that it's open for everyone who is in the women umbrella, and being intentional about that, and that it's inclusive of everyone who relates to being a woman, right? ALAINA: Yeah. Women Who Code welcomes all genders. We, you know, really struggle with our name from a brand perspective because it isn't as inclusive as we'd like it to be. So, actually, after we say our name, we try not to repeat the word women anywhere else. From the beginning, been dedicated to having an open, accessible community. But we definitely require, you know, that you are following our code of conduct, that you're there for the intended purpose of the event. And we want to make sure that we're protecting our community. VICTORIA: Well, I really appreciate that. And I appreciate...it sounds like a value organization that I'm with. I always look for those things that that's what we're really promoting. There's been so many changes that have happened with Women Who Code and in your career. If you could go back in time and give yourself some advice when you were first getting started, what would you tell yourself? ALAINA: If I was going back and thinking about what I would tell myself in the beginning, I'd probably tell myself to focus on data sooner. Coming from the history of being a meetup group to transitioning to being a global nonprofit, we dragged our feet around focusing on data impact, and really, it's because we're constantly doing so much programming. We're always doing so many things, and anything you add on is an extra thing to do. And so, I would say focus on the data much sooner. VICTORIA: I can speak to there being a lot of events. I remember back in the heyday in D.C., it was, like, algorithms on Tuesdays and Ruby on Thursdays, and then next week, it would be DevOps. And there was just always something going on. And I thought that was so cool. And I really appreciate just really everyone who is involved in putting on those programs. I really want to emphasize, too, like, the value for companies working with Women Who Code. And what do they get out of the partnership, and how can they really engage with the community? ALAINA: Yeah. So, companies that work with us, it's a partnership. They are there to support the community, and that's what they have to do to really develop trust. And we're going to make sure that we're guiding them in that process. So, if we see an opportunity for them to engage in a more authentic way, we're going to point that out. But companies are often hiring from our community; that's one of the big reasons, not just through our job board because our members are unicorns. They're diverse technologists, and everyone wants to hire them. And so, you can just say, "Hey, come work for me." But really, they want you to explain who's on the team? What are the exciting projects, and what are the exciting technologies that your company is building? So that they can actually identify that your company is an organization that they would want to work for before just applying for a job. And that's what a lot of our partnership creates space for. So, maybe getting an opportunity to join our podcast and tell the story and get to know some of the diverse leadership team or diverse engineering team, learn about some of your, like, commitment to DEI and things like that. Because when a senior engineer receives multiple job outreaches, they're going to respond to the one that they've heard of, that they already know is a good company, that they know is supporting and investing in building equity into the tech ecosystem. That's going to go a long way in them deciding to reply. WILL: That's awesome. Earlier, you mentioned being inclusive of all the members. I think I know the answer, but I just want to double-check. If I want to volunteer, am I able to volunteer at Women Who Code? ALAINA: Yes, absolutely. If you visit our website...and we just updated our website, so I encourage everyone to go visit womenwhocode.com today. It's looking different than it has over the past five years. There's a sign-up to volunteer. You would be absolutely welcome, Will. WILL: Awesome. And, as a volunteer, what would that look like? What could I get involved in? What areas? ALAINA: You could decide to be a speaker. You could apply to be a network leader. You could become a lead in a particular technology area. We have six technical tracks. Our tracks are cloud, data science, Python, mobile. When [inaudible 32:53] hears about it, we will have emerging technologies track that was expanded from our blockchain community this year. And then, we also have a career track as well. So, you can become a lead focused on one of those particular areas in our digital communities. You can get engaged with the Women Who Code community in many different ways. We also have some really cool programs like mentor me and buddy system, so getting involved in those. Building long-form connections or long-time connections with individuals in the community really helps to create a sense of belonging and start to build trust and an opportunity to exchange knowledge. VICTORIA: I always really appreciated people who were, like, "Do you need a space to host your meetup?" Or "Do you want us to buy you pizza for your meetup?" [laughs] Those are very easy ways to engage. And it's true that the membership does see and pay attention to, like, who is regularly getting involved in committing to this, and it makes a difference in your brand and reputation. ALAINA: Absolutely. The companies that work with us absolutely hire from the Women Who Code community. I'll give two examples. So, one of the most exciting examples was we had an event at a company, and they sort of were connecting in an authentic way, not, like, an interview way, but they essentially were doing an early interview with people who were there. And so I remember that it took place on Tuesday, and they had a job offer on Friday at the company that they were at. So, they were just able to move so quickly and hire someone from our community. And then, ages ago, Snapchat was at our first-ever conference, and they had hired four or six people at that event. And it was just so cool to see that we're not a recruiting agency, so we really just rely on either individuals or companies to tell us when they have these amazing career outcomes. So, every time we hear about it, it's always exciting to me. VICTORIA: That's super cool. And I wonder, what is the thing you're most excited about coming up for Women Who Code this year? ALAINA: We have CONNECT Asia taking place later on this year, and so that's our major technical conference with a focus in the Asia market. It's going to be just really, really exciting. We haven't had one since pre-COVID. It's still going to be a remote event. We had CONNECT LATAM, so our first-ever conference focused on Latin America last year. And this year, it's focused on Asia. So, it's really exciting to get back and provide some support to our regional audiences and really showcase some of the incredible talent and leadership coming out of those regions. WILL: That's amazing. So, the question I have for you, and it's easy to assume this question, but I want to hear from you because I know you talked about, at the beginning, how it was when you started the nonprofit. But what is the wind in your sails? Like, what keeps you motivated and going? It sounds like it's an easy answer, but just from your heart, what motivates you? ALAINA: Oh, it is absolutely the stories that I hear, like I said, especially from our volunteers. So, the Mexico City volunteer who, in under a year, told me her salary increased 200%. The director from Toronto, you know, when she stepped up, was an individual contributor, and under one year, she made it to director level, and today she's a vice president. So, when I think of the career impacts that are taking place for our members, and every single time I hear about it, it drives me to wake up. It drives me to work harder. It drives me to deliver better program and just makes me completely connected to what we do as an organization. VICTORIA: What a great benefit. And for myself, personally, it absolutely has been a factor in the last, like, two jobs I've gotten. [laughs] They're like, "Oh, you are a director at Women Who Code? That's so interesting." So, I really appreciate everything that you've done and happy to be a part of that. And my personal network, I know many women who have been through that and benefited immensely from having that networking community. And really, even just being able to see yourself and know that you belong in the industry, I think, is really, really important. ALAINA: I'm sure I'm going to be telling your story the next time someone asks me. [laughter] VICTORIA: That's great. No, please do. And let's see; we're wrapping up at the end of our time here. Is there anything else that you would like to promote? ALAINA: Yeah, please visit womenwhocode.com. If you have technical jobs available, please post them to the Women Who Code job board. Again, it's just womenwhocode.com/jobs. Join our community. Check out our amazing, new, beautiful website, and follow us on social media @WomenWhoCode. VICTORIA: Love that. Thank you so much for joining us today. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. WILL: And you can find me @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Alaina Percival.

Introducing thoughtbot's ongoing maintenance service. Need reliable support and maintenance for your software? Look no further. Our expert team handles upgrades, bug fixes, UI adjustments, and new feature development. And the best part? Our maintenance packages start at just 5k per month for companies of all sizes. From Ruby on Rails to Node, React, and, yes, even PHP, we've got you covered. Trust thoughtbot for top-notch support and optimized performance. To receive a custom quote, contact sales@thoughtbot.com. -- Brittany Martin is an Engineering Manager at Shogun, where she manages a team of Ruby and React engineers and is the Co-host of The Ruby on Rails Podcast. Victoria and Will talk to Brittany about the multitude of stuff she's interested in, including Roller Derby, and gives the story of how she found herself co-hosting the show. She says knowing what your brand is and what listeners should expect from listening to you is super important, and she gives her opinion on what it means to be in the Ruby on Rails Community. Shogun (https://getshogun.com) The Ruby on Rails Podcast (https://www.therubyonrailspodcast.com/) Follow Brittany Martin on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/brittanyjmartin1/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/BrittJMartin), or visit her website (https://brittanymartin.dev/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. WILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with us today is Brittany Martin, an Engineering Manager at Shogun, where she manages a team of Ruby and React engineers. She is the Co-host of The Ruby on Rails Podcast, almost five years running. And she plays roller derby for Steel City Roller Derby under the pseudonym, catch this, Merge Conflict. She is based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Brittany, thank you for joining us. BRITTANY: I am so thrilled to be on here. I have been listening to Giant Robots for years. So it's an absolute honor to be on the show today. VICTORIA: Yes, thank you so much for joining us. And I met you at RailsConf this year. And, at the time, you had a boot on your foot. So, I have to ask you, are you healed? Are you recovered? Are you walking around again? BRITTANY: This is such a good question. When I was between jobs in March, I was, you know, having these two weeks, I had a whole list of things that I was going to be doing. You know, I was going to train, like, running and whatnot. And I had roller derby practice that first week, and I broke my ankle. And, you know, going into it, I had no idea what a blocker it was going to be. I was like, oh, this is minor. It'll just take a couple of weeks to heal. No, it's been a long process. But I can gleefully tell the listeners that I am out of the boot. I am walking. I am hopefully getting into a sports program next week that will train me up to get back into CrossFit, running, and skating. Though the really funny part is that I currently have another injury which is golfer's elbow. [laughs] WILL: Oh, wow. BRITTANY: Yeah. So I have that from overusing my arms. So I'm a little bit of a mess, but, you know, getting myself back together physically so I can get back on my skates. WILL: So I know it's called golfer's elbow. But did you actually hurt it doing golf, or was it another sport you were playing? BRITTANY: It's so funny that you ask that, Will, because whenever people ask me how I broke my ankle, I can be glamorous and be like, "Oh, it was roller derby." WILL: [laughs] BRITTANY: Like, it's a sexy injury, you know. I have a friend who just broke their ankle because they were dancing down the stairs and broke it, not as glamorous of a story, right? WILL: [laughs] BRITTANY: Golfer's elbow. I literally have no idea how this happened. I've never golfed a day in my life. So [laughter] it's my non-glamorous injury at this point. WILL: Yeah, that's my background, sports medicine. BRITTANY: Oh, great. WILL: So it's interesting. Yeah, golfer's elbow, and I'm like, it's usually not golf that does it. So...[laughs] BRITTANY: Yeah. So I said something to my PT. I was like, "Am I the first person to ever get golfer's elbow from, like, you know, fixing another injury?" And she's like, "Yes. Yes, you are." [laughs] And I was like, oh. [laughter] I really was expecting to get some reassurance that it wasn't me. But hey, what are you going to do? WILL: There you go. BRITTANY: I love the fact that you do love my roller derby name. As you can imagine, it is a beacon for finding the other programmers out on the track because they find it very funny. Nobody else finds it funny whatsoever. And people call me Merge for short, and some people think it's Marge. And I just allow it at this point. [laughter] My number is 200, and its status code okay. When you hit me, I get up okay until, apparently, I break my ankle. So...[laughter] WILL: I love it. Because if you're a programmer, you're like, oh, she means business. BRITTANY: Exactly. WILL: Because merge conflicts...yeah, never fun. BRITTANY: Exactly. VICTORIA: I love that. I love finding other people who work in tech in other random activities. Like, I've recruited people from the climbing gym. [laughs] I'm like, oh, we're climbing together, and, oh, you're an engineer. That's interesting. [laughs] So it's great to, like, be with your community in different settings, so... And you're just so involved in the Ruby on Rails Community. And I'm curious what really got you started into podcasting. BRITTANY: Yeah, that's a really good question. So I'm a former product manager former MBA. So I didn't know how to code. I moved out to San Francisco because I thought that's what everyone did. If you wanted to be in tech, you moved out to San Francisco, and so I did that. And I realized very quickly that it was going to be hard for me to be a product manager without knowing how to code. And so I went to a bootcamp at night, and I became a Ruby on Rails developer. So I wish I had, like, just a really cool story for why I chose Rails. It's literally the framework that was being taught by the bootcamp. WILL: [laughs] BRITTANY: But I'm so glad that it was because I love this community so much. But, you know, when I moved out to San Francisco, I just had my current partner at the time and my dog. I didn't have any friends. And so it was really the perfect time to learn how to code just because I was really able to focus. And I ended up having a lot of long walks at night, like, getting to the train, getting to the bus, and that's really when I got into listening to podcasts. I'm not a huge music person, which is kind of weird. I really...I deeply love podcasts. And so I just kind of glommed on to a bunch of podcasts like Giant Robots, CodeNewbie, Bike Shed. I figured if I listened to all the things that I wanted to be, like, osmosis would just happen, and I would just start learning the things because I was actively learning about how to code. And I thought just listening to those concepts would really help. And really what ended up happening is those people that I was listening to, like, to me, they became celebrities to me. Like, I don't care about regular celebrities. [laughter] I care about people within these communities that I care so much about. And so, you know, a couple of years into that, I was still very much devoted to listening to podcasts. I trained for my first marathon listening to podcasts. And I was listening to The Ruby on Rails Podcast, and, at the time, Kyle Daigle had taken over the show. And he had decided, in order to spice things up on the show, he was going to bring co-hosts on that he was going to rotate through. So, every couple of weeks, you would come on as a co-host, and you would drive the conversation with things that were going on in your life. And, at the time, you know, there wasn't a lot of women, female representation in podcasts. I felt that I was doing interesting things. I was working at a non-profit doing ticketing for the Broadway Symphony and opera, like, in Rails. So I felt like I was always working in Rails, and I thought I could provide some useful insight. So I reached out to Kyle. I must have been very ambitious that day because I reached out and I said, "Hey, how about bringing me on as a co-host?" And he said, "Yeah, absolutely. Like, that would be great." And so I came on as one of the regular co-hosts on The Ruby on Rails Podcast, which I should have been flying high, right? Like, this is exactly what I wanted. I got to become like one of my own celebrities, right? Well, Kyle got really busy. At the time, I believe it's when Microsoft was acquiring GitHub. And Kyle still works at GitHub today. Kyle is amazing. He's their COO now. But the podcast kind of went dormant for a couple of months. It was my big opportunity. I really loved, you know, being on a podcast. I had done a couple of episodes. So I reached out to Kyle and said, "Hey, is there any chance you would give me the podcast?" And he said, "Absolutely." And he signed over everything to me, [laughter] which was really scary because I was taking over a podcast that had been around, at that time, it had been around for at least ten years, hundreds of episodes deep. It was on its own network. It was on the 5by5 Network at the time. So it had sponsors and expectations. And so, really, I had to learn everything from the get-go. Like, I made up my own episode plans. I made up my own questions, like, how to do ad reads, how to edit, how to upload to the hosting platform like; that was entirely on me. And, you know, we can talk more about how the podcast has evolved over those years. But yeah, long story now made short, that is how I got my start in podcasting. WILL: That's actually really amazing that that's how it got started and everything. Let's go back to when you first started. What was your feelings like? You say it was a lot to take on. Can you dig deeper in that and tell us more about that? Because I think I felt the same way. I think we've been doing this for about a year now. It's scary, let's be honest. It's scary jumping on a podcast and sharing who you are and what you're doing. So, can you tell us more about that? BRITTANY: Absolutely. I think one thing is just knowing what is your brand and, you know, what listeners should expect from listening to you because this is a podcast that had been around for ten years. You know, it had changed formats several times. It was an interview-style podcast at one point. At one point, it was a bunch of co-hosts that would just meet every week to talk out what was going on. And so I really needed to take a moment and kind of look over the metrics of the episodes. Like, I have that marketing background. I have that product background. So I wanted to know, like, what's actually working? Like, what do listeners want to listen to? And I also, like, kind of pored through all the reviews of the podcast. I'm like, did people even notice that this podcast went offline? Like, what's the current ecosystem? How many podcasts are out there in the Ruby and Rails space? And so what I started doing is I wanted to create, like, a safe environment in order to start the podcast over again. So what I did is I did interview-style podcasts with my friends, people that would tolerate me, you know, making mistakes, knowing that I was probably...I am a terrible editor. And so bringing those people on to have just genuine conversations with. And then really just tried to pick up the listenership of the podcast because I'm basically waving my arms saying, "Hey, folks. Like, The Ruby on Rails Podcast is back. I'm here as your host. And, like, we are here to stay. Like, I want this to be a mainstay in the community." VICTORIA: That's great. So you started to apply those concepts from your product background. And I'm curious what you found in how the business of the podcast really works. BRITTANY: Yeah, I learned a lot, and we can talk about the transition. So, when I came on to the 5by5 Ruby on Rails Podcast, at the time, this was back in 2018. The podcast was being managed by 5by5, which is, like, a long-standing podcast network. They're still around, but they're much smaller than they used to be. So, like, all of the sponsorship and the episode management was being handled by them. And so I didn't have a lot of insight into that part of the podcast. What I did have insight into is, like, what content is performing well? And what is the audience reaction to what we're putting out there? Like, how is the listenership coming back and whatnot? Now, one thing that did happen over the course of me managing The Ruby on Rails Podcast is we decided to take the podcast independent at one point, you know, 5by5 was starting to wind down. And so, back in 2021, I reached out to 5by5 and said, "Hey, I genuinely really love this podcast. I want to be able to take it to a different platform, you know, have it go independent. But it's really important to me that I'm able to hold on to the current subscribers that I have." I think we all know that, like, if you rebrand something and it's a totally different RSS feed, it's really hard to get people to move over, especially if they're using something that makes podcast listening really easy like Apple Podcasts, you know, you subscribe. You get new episodes, and you just hit play. And so they were extremely willing to work with me. And so, we ended up taking the podcast independent. 5by5 created the hosting platform Fireside. And so we moved the podcast over to Fireside, and that was, like, a very seamless transition. But it was a moment in time where, you know, I was kind of questioning. We're no longer 5by5. It was the 5by5 Ruby on Rails Podcast. What do we call it? And so I genuinely had that moment where I was like, I could be really clever with the name. But then I stepped back, and I was like, no, everyone already refers to it as The Ruby on Rails Podcast. I'm just going to go with it. And so I think that ended up being a good decision. We did change the logo of the show. We kept the same feed. And we had, like, the first episode on the new...we're not even on a network now; we're independent. The first episode of, like, the V2 of The Ruby on Rails Podcast is really what we called it. We just kind of explained the whole move. And I'm just deeply grateful all of our listeners just kind of followed along. And I will say the biggest boon to us moving is that we did get a professional editor. And so, like, the quality of the episodes went up, which is the best money that you can spend. Get yourself a professional editor. I cannot stress that enough. Or you get really good at it yourself. But I know my own skills, and it was never going to be that way. And so we took it independent. And I also decided to do a format change as well because it was a lot to do years of a podcast by myself. It was a lot. So I'm really glad Victoria and Will that you have each other. I think it's really great to have co-hosts. So I ended up moving the podcast. I now have a producing partner, and that's Mirror Placement. They do recruiting for Ruby on Rails, and they are wonderful partners. But I also have three co-hosts that rotate through. I have Brian Mariani, who's a recruiter and founder of Mirror Placement. I have Jemma Issroff, who works on Ruby at Shopify. And I have Nick Schwaderer, who works on Rails infrastructure at Shopify. And that's been great because I rotate through those co-hosts. And I always have fresh content from them. But I also do the interview-style episodes as well, which Victoria was on recently. VICTORIA: Yes. I agree 100%. Having a co-host like Will makes it so much more fun. And I cannot appreciate our editor Mandy Moore enough. And I agree on that advice. And I actually would add when people ask me if they should start a podcast, recommend having at least one other person [laughs] who you want to talk with about that topic for every week. But I wonder, if someone's thinking about starting a podcast, what would you have them consider as to whether or not it's worth it for them? BRITTANY: I recently joined the podcasting subreddit on Reddit just because I was interested to see what kind of questions there were out there. Because when I got into podcasting, I was, like, oh, you just need to have a microphone and a way to record, and you just put it out there, and people are going to listen. It feels very much...like, you remember when, you know, the iPhone came out, and the App Store was empty? And then any app that you made was, like, amazing. Everybody would download it because there was nothing to download. We're now getting to a point with podcasts; there's just a lot out there. My first bit of advice is, something that I said earlier, is make sure that you have an identity around your podcasts. Like, make sure that you are targeting a niche. It's fine if there are other people doing it, but do something that is uniquely you and do something that brings you joy. I really love talking to people in the Ruby on Rails Community. I have a special affinity for people who have never been on a podcast before. It's a lot of work. So it's definitely worth it. I've gotten to meet a lot of my programming heroes because of it. And there are times where I've been very tempted to take a break and be able to step away from it. But, as of right now, it has been a good experience. And what I often say whenever I open up my conference talks is the Ruby on Rails Community is my community contribution because I'm not someone who regularly contributes to open source. And so this is kind of, like, how I give back, and I get to meet a lot of amazing people. Mid-Roll Ad: VICTORIA: Introducing thoughtbot's ongoing maintenance service. Need reliable support and maintenance for your software? Look no further. Our expert team handles upgrades, bug fixes, UI adjustments, and new feature development. And the best part? Our maintenance packages start at just 5k per month for companies of all sizes. From Ruby on Rails to Node, React, and, yes, even PHP, we've got you covered. Trust thoughtbot for top-notch support and optimized performance. To receive a custom quote, contact sales@thoughtbot.com. VICTORIA: And with me here, I have Richard Newman, who's the Development Director on our Boost Team, to talk to me a little bit more about what maintenance actually looks like once you've built your software application, right? RICHARD: Hi, Victoria. VICTORIA: Hi, Richard. You have experience building applications. I wonder if you could describe to a founder who's considering to build an application, like, what should they consider for their long-term maintenance? RICHARD: Well, like you said earlier, part of what you're going for with that long-term maintenance is making sure the health of your project, of your application, is always there. And you don't want to be surprised as you're continuing to work with your users and so forth. And so a number of things that we pay attention to in maintenance are we're paying attention to keeping the application secure, providing security updates. We want to make sure that the ecosystem, basically, all of the tools and third-party services that are tied to your application, we're responding to those sorts of changes as we go along. And then part of it is, occasionally, you're going to find some smaller issues or bugs or so forth as your user group continues to grow or as needs continue to change. You want to be able to respond to those quickly as well. And so a lot of what goes into maintenance is making sure that you're paying attention and you're ahead of those things before they surprise you. VICTORIA: Because what can happen? Like, what are the consequences if you don't do that ongoing maintenance? RICHARD: Well, the security updates those happen across gems and in the platform sort of tools that are there. And so, if you're not keeping those up to date, your exposure, your vulnerability to being hacked, or having a bad actor come into your application start growing on you if you're not doing the maintenance. The other ones that can come up is there's new interfaces that these third-party services...they may be updating their APIs. They may be updating how you're supposed to work with their tool. And so those can occasionally break if you're not paying attention to what's going on or you're suddenly surprised by an upgrade that you have to make. And then, finally, there's this long-term sort of code change that just builds up over time if you're not keeping it refactored for the changes that are upcoming in a language or the gems that you work with. And then, suddenly, after a while, it suddenly gets to the point where you have a lot of work that you might have to do to rehabilitate the application to take on some of the newer features that are being released. And so that makes it that much more difficult, that much more friction about being able to deliver updates for your users or to be able to respond to changes that are happening out there in your application. VICTORIA: Right. So, if you don't have that ongoing maintenance, you could run into a situation where suddenly, you need to make a very large investment and fixing whatever is broken. RICHARD: Absolutely. It's going to be very tough to plan for if you weren't keeping up all the way along and, yes, absolutely ends up being much slower if you have to remediate it. VICTORIA: That makes sense. I wonder if you have any examples of a project you've walked into and said, "Wow, I wish we had been doing a little bit more maintenance." [laughs] And maybe you can share some details. RICHARD: Yeah. We had a fairly large application that involved a number of clinic services. So we had an application that users were going in every day and counting on our fast response. And, over time, we've got surprised by a database upgrade that had to happen. Basically, the database was going to be changed by our third-party hosting service, and that hadn't been tested. There hadn't been procedures in place when we discovered this need. And there was a very hard date that that change had to be done or else the entire application was going to go down. And it came at a very inconvenient time, at the end of the year around Christmas, that we had to respond to all of that. And had we been in front of it and just updated it every quarter and staying current with it, it wouldn't have been nearly the lift that it turned out to be. We were facing a pretty hard deadline [laughs] there to keep things going. It was very, very stressful and disruptive for the team and potentially for the clinics. VICTORIA: Right. And it always happens around a big holiday or something like that, right? When it all comes to a head. [laughter] RICHARD: Absolutely. You want to be in control of the timeframe and not have the timeframe be in control of you. VICTORIA: Right. And if you have a team like thoughtbot supporting you, you can go on your vacation with a little bit more knowledge that if something breaks, there's someone there who can respond and fix things, and you don't have to interrupt your very valuable time off. So... RICHARD: [chuckles] Absolutely. VICTORIA: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Richard, for joining me today. I appreciate you coming here to talk with us. And we'll talk to you again soon. RICHARD: Yeah, it was a pleasure. Thank you. WILL: I have a question around your listeners. I just want to take a second and just thank everyone who listens to the podcast. We really appreciate you so much, so just thank you, thank you, thank you. Because if you don't have listeners, you don't have a podcast, like you said a second ago. And you went through so many changes. What's been your biggest win, and how do you continue winning with your listeners? And how do you engage with them? BRITTANY: This is a fun answer because, actually, thoughtbot comes into play there. They did not pay me to say this. But one thing that The Bike Shed used to do is they used to go to RailsConf and RubyConf, and they would record episodes during the conference with various Ruby heroes in the community. This is going back to me seeing these people as celebrities. I just thought that was, like, the coolest thing. And, at the time, I couldn't afford to go to conferences like that. So being able to listen to those podcasts and get to hear that kind of content was really important to me. And so, you know, eventually, that stopped being a thing at RubyConf and RailsConf. And two years ago, I reached out and said, "Hey, I really love those kinds of sessions. Is there any way that I could take the lead on bringing those sessions back?" And we did. So it took in the form of a podcast panel at these different conferences where we would bring in different podcasts in the community. And we would have a panel. We would answer listener questions. It was genuinely a lot of fun. So that is a proud moment for me. But it's a proud moment for me because it gave me the opportunity to reach out to podcasts in the community and say, "Hey, we're not competing here. We're friends. I want to record content with you. Like, please be part of my podcast community." And we have never been tighter. So, like, we guest on each other's podcasts. We promote each other's podcasts on like Mastodon and Twitter. And it is just the most lovely thing ever because now we say things like, oh, yeah, like, this podcast, like, that's our, like, sister podcast, or that's our brother podcast. Like, it's so cool that we, you know, rising tide raises all ships. That's exactly what's happening here in the Ruby podcast community. VICTORIA: I like that familial sense within the different Ruby on Rails podcasts, and maybe even Giant Robots is a part of that. Like, are we a cousin or an uncle? [laughter] Who knows? But I was actually there when you recorded the episode live at RailsConf in Atlanta this year. Was that your favorite moment at RailsConf, or was it something else? BRITTANY: Yeah, I would say that was my favorite moment at RailsConf. No matter how many times I meet Aaron Patterson, I am always, like, deeply intimidated by just how funny and intelligent he is. So having that excuse of reaching out to him and saying like, "Hey, will you please be on this podcast panel?" was so fun. I deeply adore Irina Nazarova, and so having her on the panel as well was fun. And then just doing the wildcard of having the audience, like, vote in who was going to be the third panel was truly a risky move, Victoria. [laughs] But it ended up paying off, and it ended up generating some really fun content for us. VICTORIA: That's awesome. And I'm curious, you know, to talk a little bit more about the Ruby on Rails Community. And what do you see is the biggest challenge that it's facing right now? BRITTANY: Oh, I have so many opinions on this. What a great question. [laughs] So I recently put together a talk proposal. It's currently waitlisted at a conference, but it is a talk that I very much want to give. But one project that I would really like to work on is...between, I would say, 2013 and 2015, Ruby on Rails was definitely the number one framework that was being taught in bootcamps. And I'm really curious about what happened to all those people. I'm one of them. I learned Ruby on Rails in 2014. I still believe that I'm in the Ruby on Rails Community, not only for the podcast, but I'm an engineering manager for a company that writes Rails. So I believe I'm very much in the community. I'm so curious. Those people had so much potential of being seniors, principals, staff engineers, founders, engineering managers, architects. What happened to them? And did they stay in our community? And then my second part of that is, what does it mean to be in the Ruby on Rails Community? Like, can you just listen to podcasts and be in the community? Do you need to actively write Ruby? I just find that whole thing very interesting. We're very obsessed with bringing new programmers into the Rails community, which I think is important. But what about the people who we taught Rails and left us? Like, is there an opportunity to bring them back? WILL: It's funny you say that because I wasn't in that year range. I was a little later, like, 2017. And I learned Ruby on Rails, and then I went to JavaScript, you know, React, React Native, but I'm slowly inching back towards Ruby on Rails. My current project, I'm actually able to do some Ruby on Rails. And I'm really excited about it because, like you, that was my first language style that I learned, and I still love it. It is weird, but you always love your first language; I do, at least. So it's interesting that you said that because, yeah, I can say, for me, I'm slowly coming back towards it. BRITTANY: Well, welcome back, Will. We're excited to have you. I know that Node was such a heavy hitter when it came out, and it made a lot of sense. Like, we're going to teach you JavaScript on the front end. Oh, hey, we're going to also teach you JavaScript on the back end. You know, from the business side, I'm so curious whether or not Rails is still, like, one of the top three solutions in order to get an MVP off the ground. I don't have my thumb on that, so I'm very curious whether or not that's true or not. VICTORIA: We certainly still tend to default to it at thoughtbot and to get MVPs off the ground. And we're still building a bunch of products every year with it. [laughs] So, Ruby on Rails and React together, especially if you're trying to iterate very quickly and test your assumptions about what you're building, I think that it's still a really fast and high-performing framework to use. And it's interesting because there's a coding school in San Diego, Codecademy, which is really heavily involved, [chuckles] of course, in the Ruby on Rails Community, and they still teach it in their bootcamp. And one of the reasons they said to me was because it's one of the frameworks that gives you that holistic view of how everything works. [laughs] Like, if you're new to tech, new to programming, in general, it's a very easy entry point to understanding. And I think that, of itself, when you're talking, like, the long-term viability of a framework, being able to hire people who can step in and understand what's going on in your codebase, that framework gives you a higher chance of that. [laughs] You know, that might point to your long-term success, too. BRITTANY: Now, that's a really good point. Going back to the podcast as well, I think one thing that is not very well solved is just being able to make it sustainable as well because there are only so many sponsors out there. And it's really hard to prove ROI from sponsoring a podcast, right? Like, you can put links in the show notes. And you can hope people click on them and they convert. And you can be able to say, "Hey, this podcast is the reason." But I've seen a lot of people start podcasts, and they think, well, if I put a bunch of episodes out and some people listen, then sponsors are going to knock down my door. I'm very lucky that I've had some long-term sponsors that have been able to keep the show sustainable. And I love seeing podcasts that come out of companies, you know, like thoughtbot, where you are being sustained by the company that, you know, is producing it. It's really hard to justify a podcast as a business unless you are already a major celebrity already, right? VICTORIA: Yeah, we certainly don't do it for the money it makes us directly off the podcast. We do not. [laughter] BRITTANY: We do not. VICTORIA: Yeah, I agree with that. And yeah, and even it's interesting as an advertising vehicle or marketing for your company. It can be great because, like, I feel with Giant Robots, we have so many listeners, like, loyal listeners over the years that we have this, like, direct way of communicating with a community that we care about. [laughs] But if you don't have...trying to, like, create that market and create that group of people from the ground up can be really tough. [laughs] And it takes a lot of time, a lot of investment, and a lot of effort, especially if you can't afford a professional editor. [laughs] BRITTANY: Agreed. There's just some cost that I believe, like, the longer I do this, that are just, like, non-negotiable. There are some things that you can definitely have as optional. You know, for me, like, you have to have a good microphone. You have to have a professional editor. I pay for, like, my calendar scheduling software because I want to make that really, like, slick for my guests. Like, I used to...oh, I used to do the emails back and forth of, like, I'm available at Thursday at 2:00 or Friday at 3:00. Like, would one of these work for you? No. [laughs] It's just...that's a rotten experience. For us, we do send, like, a thank you gift after being on the show, which has been, like, a nice add with having a producing partner that will back me on that. And I try to get to as many conferences as possible because I think it's a great vehicle to promote the podcast, but those end up all being optional. And all those things they do cost money. VICTORIA: They do. And it's funny, like, yeah, getting out to the conferences, it's still the number one way to grow things is by meeting people in person [laughs], like, being real and human. BRITTANY: Shocking, right? [laughs] VICTORIA: Yeah. And I'm just kind of curious, like, in terms of how you picture what success means for your podcast. Like, what does that look like in the next six months or even, like, five years of hosting this podcast for you? BRITTANY: Ooh, this is, like, the existential crisis question because I've been doing it for nearly five years. And I think the question is always going to be, you know, like, how long do I want to keep hosting the podcast? I will say the podcast is a positive influence on me in terms of making sure that I stay connected to people, that I keep writing code on the side so that way, I know what I'm talking about. I have this whole imposter thing of, like, what if someone finds out I'm not a Ruby on Rails developer day to day and that I'm, like, actually thinking about business problems; I was, like, an engineering manager? You know, I'm going to get found out, and people are going to unsubscribe. But in all seriousness, I think the success for this podcast is that it can go on without me. It's been around for that long already. And eventually, like, I want to have a succession plan where someones, I will say, like, multiple co-hosts to be able to take it over from there. It'll be rough to watch because, like, I really enjoy, you know, my current era because I feel like the podcast has gone through different eras. I really do enjoy it. But, at some point, it's just not going to make sense in terms of my professional goals. Do you feel the same? VICTORIA: Yes. But we're only a year in. So I feel like I'm still...[laughter] I feel like I'm still new to hosting. And I'm like, oh, I've already recorded, like, 30 episodes or something. [laughs] There's been a lot of change. And we're always thinking about, like, how do we make it better? What do we do? And trying to figure out how do we really get the most out of it for ourselves. But I feel the same way that it's just one of the more fun things that I do at thoughtbot [laughs]. And it gives me that chance to reach out to people and start conversations that I otherwise would not have had. So I really appreciate it. I don't know what you think, Will. WILL: No, I totally agree with you. I love meeting new people. And I love meeting the diverse group of people that we have on the podcast. I love that just, like, how did you get here? Like, what makes you keep at it? Like, you've been at it for five years. What makes you keep at it? Just those questions like that I really love. For me personally, I think that I'm still in the growing phase of podcast hosting. Like, I can get better at this. I can get better at that. What else can I get better at? So I think that's where I'm at in this phase. But, like Victoria said, that's only a year in. It's a different story when you're five years in. BRITTANY: [laughs] It is. And one thing that I will do to make it more sustainable is, you know, like when you're running, you can either be sprinting, or you can be doing, like, a long endurance race. So with the podcast, I will book a bunch of podcasts in one week and say, this is my week to be recording. Like, I'm going to be very heads down on the podcast. I have other things going on in my life, but I'm like, this is a podcast week for me. And so I will record a bunch of episodes. And that essentially gives me a couple of weeks where I can essentially take a break from the podcast. But guess what, listeners? Like, you're still getting new episodes. So you have no idea that I'm secretly taking a break. And I think that has also been a huge help. Odd fact is that the five years that I've been hosting The Ruby on Rails Podcast, I am only missing from one episode. And the reason for that is that when I broke my ankle, [laughs] I called my co-host and was like, "Hey, I'm going into surgery tomorrow. We have this great episode being recorded tomorrow. I need you to take it." [laughs] And so that is the one episode that I am missing from, but I think it was a good lesson for me to know that I can step away and good content can still happen. WILL: That's amazing. That's a pretty good record. [laughs] BRITTANY: Or it might be obsessive, Will. I don't know. [laughter] WILL: Let me ask you this, what does success look like for you personally - roller derby, your full-time job? What does success look like for you in those areas in six months or a couple of years? BRITTANY: Oh, that's a really great question. So I had stepped away from roller derby during the pandemic. And so I absolutely love fitness. I do CrossFit. I have a peloton. I have my own little home gym that I built during the pandemic that I absolutely adore. So, you know, success for me is continuing to invest in that self-care. I want to keep skating just because I'm that person. Everyone came to me, and they're like, "Oh, you broke your ankle. I bet you won't go back to a roller derby." And I was like, oh, you think I won't? You think I won't go back? [laughs] So I'm headed back, but I'm going to be very careful about it. Because I've seen that, you know, your body can break, and you need to give yourself some rest. But to answer, overall, like, I am an engineering manager now, and, you know, my goal is to eventually to get to that director level. And, in some ways, like, I can justify the podcast just because I do get the excuse to talk to people that have the job that I eventually want to have in my career. And so it helps in that regard as well. VICTORIA: I think that's great, and I agree. That's also why I started getting involved in my community a lot, maybe 5 or 10 years ago. I was just like, here's opportunities to show my leadership and see how connected I am with other leaders. [laughs] It helps in that way. And on blading, I actually bought rollerblades recently just to go around the neighborhood. BRITTANY: Yeesssss! VICTORIA: And I got heckled by a woman [laughs] who said...I think she was being sincere, but she was like, "Bend your knees, and it's going to be okay." [laughter] Like, "Wear wrist guards next time." [laughter] I was like, maybe just my face was very try-hard in that moment. Because I have a lot of respect for people who can roller derby and get around on skates that fast. [laughs] BRITTANY: Well, you know what's really funny? (I haven't even talked about this on my own podcast.) is that you know, I'm involved in the Roller Derby League. Obviously, I can't skate right now. And so I needed to find a committee so that I was able to still, you know, provide value to the league. And so, for some reason, I decided that skater resources would be a good idea. So I'm essentially one of the people who is, you know, human resources within the Roller Derby League. And so when there are disputes or questions, or people have hurt feelings, like, they're coming to me, which is, you know, really funny because I do some of that as an engineering manager. So, like, to your point, Victoria, like, you know, I can do growth because they're way more extreme through roller derby, as you can imagine. And, in some ways, it ends up being good practice. VICTORIA: Yes, that does sound like practice for higher-level management decisions, [laughs] so get ready. You're going to have issues and problems, and you're the one to solve it. So... BRITTANY: Yeah. It's not like their problems don't matter. But, in some ways, it's almost like playing with monopoly money because, like, you know, you're not dealing with somebody's, like, livelihood. You're dealing with a sport that they do for fun. Like, trust me, no one is being paid to play roller derby. [laughs] It's a very expensive sport. There's a lot of equipment involved. And, Victoria, yes, you want to wear wristguards. [laughter] VICTORIA: Yes. I learned my lesson. BRITTANY: You write code. You want to wear wrist guards. [laughter] VICTORIA: Right. And yeah, it's funny about things like that. Like, it's still very meaningful to people. Like, when I used to coach kids' climbing competitions, it's, like, the same thing. Like, it's rock climbing, everybody, but some people take it very seriously. [laughs] There's a lot of feelings involved. But, at the end of the day, it's nice to have that practice outside of the pressure of it being someone's livelihood and all of those details. BRITTANY: Agreed. VICTORIA: Well, let me ask you this question. It's one of our favorite ones. But if you could go back in time and give advice to your younger self, what would you say? And maybe it's at the beginning of the podcast or some other inflection point in your career. BRITTANY: That is...oh, what a gift because hindsight is 20/20, isn't it? When I was going through school, I ended up getting a marketing degree because I really enjoyed business. I really liked, you know, the mechanics behind marketing. But, at the time, I had taken a couple of computer classes, and this was back in 2006. And, you know, I thought about double majoring in computer science and marketing. And someone gave me the terrible advice that computer programming was going to go away [laughs], and so it would be a waste of time to get that double degree in computer science. And so, you know, I'm very much a second career developer. Like I noted earlier, you know, I was a PM. I was a non-technical product manager before I learned how to code, and so I learned how to code in my 30s. So I wish I could go back and get into programming way earlier. It would have changed the entire trajectory of my life. But part of me always wants to live out, like, that Black Mirror, like, what it would have been like if I had learned to code so much earlier. Would I have found Ruby? Maybe not. WILL: I totally agree with that because the same story. I remember growing up, and I had a cousin that lived next door. He used to program, and I was just, like, he was a celebrity because I was like, whoa, look what he's doing, and how can you do that? And then I went off to college. Well, I grew up in a small town, so we didn't really have many computer programs. I went to a college, and they said, "Hey, we have this one computer course you can either take it or test out." I was like; I'm not taking it; test out. I want to save that money. And I didn't realize how much I'll love computers and programming until later in life, late 20s, early 30s. And I wish I could have started early, so I totally agree with you about that. VICTORIA: Like, I wish I would have time now to learn how to code. [laughs] Like, I still need to learn it. No, I think that...oh, would I advise? I don't know. You know what's funny? A recent guest said that if that had happened, they still wouldn't have believed themselves [laughs], right? Like, would you really believe someone telling you what to do? Like, you know, you try to make the best decision that you can at the time. BRITTANY: I think it's fun to look back and see all the little things that happened that got you to where you are. So, like, two of, like, crucial things that happened for me. I was in school to become a genetic counselor, and I hated it. And so I had gotten an internship, and, like, that internship changed everything because it was like a day in the life as a genetic counselor, and I really did not like it at all. And so, I ended up dropping all my classes and moving into the business school. And so that was one thing that happened. And then the second thing is, you know, I was working at a cowboy restaurant. [laughs] It was ridiculous. And I was getting ready to graduate school and just absolutely terrified about not having a job. I ended up getting this table of this company that was, like, having a business meeting, and we ended up chatting, and they were so wonderful. And they left me their business card, and, like, that ended up being my first job. It's just the little micro-decisions that you make that, like, change your entire trajectory, which is really so cool. So you end up not really regretting anything, but you always just kind of look back and reflect, and you're like, what if I had given that table away? Or what if I hadn't been ambitious and, like, tried to get that internship? So just everything's an opportunity, right? WILL: Yeah, I totally, totally agree with that. So you do roller derby, CrossFit, marathons, coding, your podcast. So you do a lot of self-care, which I don't think, especially in the tech world, we do enough self-care. I know I don't. I am horrible at it, trying to get better. What's your wind in your sails for that? Like, how do you keep going? Like, how do you stay disciplined with that? BRITTANY: I think, for me, I feel better when I move my body. I make better decisions. I am more patient. I need to work out earlier in the day. Like, I am a morning person, and so it makes me feel good. And so then I go into work in a good mood. And I deal with people day to day, right? Like, I manage ten developers. And so it's also something that I can use to connect with my team as well. A lot of them also like to do physical things, and so that works out nicely. In terms of nutrition, I definitely could be better. But I will say my partner and I take turns meal prepping our lunches. We both work from home. And so being able to, like, in between meetings run over and grab a box of actually good food to be able to eat lunch. We do, like, a meal service at night as well. I don't know, like, you need to look out for you. Because while the belief is that other people are also looking out, nobody's going to look out for you like you are. And so you have to prioritize self-care and just making sure that you're getting those moments. And I agree with you, Will; sometimes, I'm absolutely terrible at setting up those processes so that way you don't fall through. VICTORIA: I think there's a book that makes me think of it called, like, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck. [laughs] BRITTANY: Yes. VICTORIA: Yeah. BRITTANY: Yes. VICTORIA: Yep. And I think that's part of it, too. Like, there's a lot of pressure to be so high-performing and to do all the things for your family, and for your work and your personal life. But, at the end of the day, it's also okay to just sit around and do nothing [laughs] and, like, relax. BRITTANY: Yeah, I've watched a lot of Drag Race, a lot. [laughs] VICTORIA: Oh, awesome. Yes. What's your favorite season? BRITTANY: Oh, season six, I would say. Season six is just so good. Are you watching All-Stars? VICTORIA: I'm not right now. I'm actually...I usually binge-watch it at random times. So I'm not really caught up. But I have met a few of them at drag shows. I think I've met Milk. Is that [inaudible 44:27] BRITTANY: Oh, wow. What a queen to have met. VICTORIA: I know. BRITTANY: That's amazing. [laughs] VICTORIA: That was actually a very funny story. I'll tell you another time. [laughs] But yes. BRITTANY: But honestly, like, Drag Race actually relates to engineering management for me because, you know, at my last job, I had two developers that I was struggling to connect with. And I realized that after stand-up, they were staying behind to talk about Drag Race, and I wanted to connect with them. And I was like, oh, I'll check out a couple of episodes and became so deeply addicted [laughs] that, like, I surpassed them in how much I loved it. So, like, it is a fun, like, I've always thought about giving a conference talk where, like, each report that I have, like, one crazy thing that they do...well, not crazy but, like, one, you know, passion that they have and, like, trying it just to have something to relate to. Though I will say, I did manage somebody who really liked to jump out of planes, and that is just not in the cards for me. VICTORIA: I love that too. I like when someone is really passionate about something. I'm like, okay, I'll give it a chance, at least once, you know. But I have some friends right now who are into freediving, and I'm not convinced [laughs] that I want to go try to hold my breath underwater. BRITTANY: What in the world is freediving? VICTORIA: It's diving underwater without oxygen. BRITTANY: No. VICTORIA: Yeah. Yeah. BRITTANY: That's a big nope for me. VICTORIA: And, like, hunting fish. So, like, they catch tuna and stuff. They're down there pew-pew and making sushi when they get back. BRITTANY: Well, that actually sounds wonderful. But -- VICTORIA: Yeah, I'm like, I will eat this. I will eat [laughs] whatever you catch. BRITTANY: Yes, that's fair. VICTORIA: Yeah. Like, I'm into the results but not...I might try some of the, like... a lot of it is, like, training your breath and being able to hold your breath and to stay calm because that's really the biggest problem. [laughs] I do rock climbing. I think that's enough. Like, that's -- WILL: [laughs] BRITTANY: That's pretty badass. VICTORIA: Yeah. [laughs] WILL: Yes. BRITTANY: That is a very cool sport. VICTORIA: Yeah. And, actually, you're mentioning how it was, like, you worked at a cowboy restaurant, and that was how you got your first connection to your job. And, like, I would go up to, like, my college climbing wall and be, like, I'm a rock climber; you should hire me. And [laughs] through that connection, I got my first referral to my first job in DC. And so, basically, my whole life revolves around it. [laughs] Nothing would happen without these little connections that you make. I'm curious, Will, if you had a pivot point like that you can tell us about. WILL: It was probably getting to tech because it was more of a hobby, and sometimes it's still a big hobby for me. So I will say either getting into tech or working out. So I try to work out with friends. So I used to play football. Everything was a group workout. So after football, it was very hard for me to work out because it was always a group workout. So after many, many years of finally realizing that, I try to work out in groups, with friends, and stuff like that. So that's probably the biggest thing for me is, like, working out in a group and having someone to hold me accountable. BRITTANY: I love that. That's one reason...so I used to be a fitness instructor. I should reveal that as well. I used to be a BODYPUMP instructor. And the reason for that is just, like, again, I thought people that were fitness instructors were just, like, celebrities and absolute badasses. And so, I used to only go to group fitness class as well because I needed that accountability. And so, yeah, there's definitely days I wake up where I absolutely do not want to do anything. But having that accountability, it's just really awesome, and really, it makes sure that you follow through. VICTORIA: That makes sense how you've practiced your voice and why your podcasting voice is so strong [laughter] because you're a fitness instructor. That's what is starting to add up for me. [laughter] BRITTANY: You know what? The biggest challenge of being a fitness instructor is that they would send me the routines, and I would have to memorize them. And being able to memorize like, oh, I'm going to squat on the fourth count. And I'm going to do a clean and press on the eighth count. Oh my God, is that an algorithm -- WILL: Yes. BRITTANY: You know, for a pro...and I was like, is there any way that I could somehow automate? Like, part of me wanted to game it. I'm like, how do I game this so I don't have to spend so much time trying to memorize it? I mean, it was truly, truly challenging. And it was probably, like, the best brain teaser that I could have been doing because you're essentially putting on a live performance while working out. And everyone needs to be able to follow you and feel encouraged by you. It was just...it was a wild time. WILL: [laughs] VICTORIA: That sounds very demanding. Well, coming up to the end of our time here, is there anything else you would like to promote today? BRITTANY: Ooh, no. We're currently not hiring at my job. Normally, that is something that I would promote. I would say if you are interested in checking out my podcast, it is The Ruby on Rails Podcast. We have plenty of things on there that are not Rails-specific. We've had conversations about, like, what's it like to get stock options at a company? What does the recruiting landscape currently look like? And then we also have, like, deep topics about, like, what's currently being merged into Ruby Core? So, really, we have a wide variety of topics. So, if you find my voice somewhat pleasant, come on over; we'd be happy to have you. And, of course, you can listen to Victoria's episode, that will be linked up in the show notes. But this was such a pleasure. It was great spending time with you both, Will and Victoria. WILL: Yeah, it was great. Loved chatting with you. VICTORIA: Yes, thank you so much for joining. This was super fun. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. WILL: If you have any questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you could find me on Twitter @will23larry. VICTORIA: And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Brittany Martin.

Agnes Malatinszky is the Founder of Senga, which takes care of back-office administrative needs for freelancers, contractors, and solopreneurs. Victoria and Will interview Agnes about the thoughtbot Incubator program and what led Agnes to choose to apply, what the demands on her time were like, how it worked, and how she feels now that she's at the end of the program. Senga (https://www.senga.app/) Follow Senga on Twitter (https://twitter.com/wistia) or join their Discord (https://discord.com/invite/53TUyaY7pS). Follow Agnes Malatinszky on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/agnes-malatinszky/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/agnesmalatin). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Agnes Malatinszky, Founder of Senga, providing back-end support for freelancers. Agnes, thank you for joining me. AGNES: Hey, it's a pleasure to be here. VICTORIA: You are the first graduate of thoughtbot's incubator program, and I'm really excited to dive into that with you today. So, before we get started in talking about the incubator program, let's just start with what fun thing do you have going on this week? AGNES: I'm based in Washington, D.C., and it's a beautiful time of year here. Early summer, late spring is gorgeous. So I'm excited because my family and I are actually headed out to Harpers Ferry this weekend for a little hike. So I'm looking forward to that. WILL: So, what is...when you say a hike, can you explain it to anybody that's outside of the D.C. area? AGNES: It's just a beautiful area in West Virginia. And we're going to take our dog and my daughter out there and get some fresh air and walk around. There's a little historic town there as well that's really interesting to explore. WILL: That sounds fun. VICTORIA: Yeah. I've been to Harpers Ferry to go floating, like, on the river. AGNES: Yes. VICTORIA: Where you float down the river in inner tubes and drink beverages. [laughter] There's also...there's rock climbing in Harpers Ferry too, which is sometimes closed for bird nesting. So it is really beautiful. AGNES: Ooh, I didn't know that. That's really cool. We'll keep an eye out for that. WILL: Yes. For anybody that doesn't know, Victoria is an amazing rock climber. I have a lot of respect for her because I don't know if I could do it. [laughter] VICTORIA: You could definitely do it. The next thoughtbot trip that we're on, we'll go rock climbing, Will. I'm confident in your skills. You could do it. Yes, I'm a big rock climber and rock-climbing advocate, so I'll talk about it forever if you let me. WILL: [laughs] VICTORIA: And I'm actually going to go rock climbing this weekend and get outside myself. And we're going up to Mammoth, California. And we're going to do a half-climbing, half-ski trip. WILL: Ooh. VICTORIA: So that's going to be fun for Memorial Day weekend, so...What about you, Will? What do you have going on fun this week? WILL: Yeah. So you said skiing. VICTORIA: Yes. So Mammoth got the most snow in the country this year. When we were there in February, they'd already had, like, 10 feet of snow. And then they got another foot of snow while we were there, so they're going to have snow through August, at least. WILL: August. Wow. Here in South Florida, the lowest we got was 50. So snow, I don't even know what you're talking about. [laughs] Yeah, so you asked what I'm going to do. Last week was a big week for us because my boys they turned four years old and one year old. And we took them to Disney and had a blast. Anybody who's been to Disney knows it's a trip. It could be a lot, especially it was very hot there too. So I think this weekend we're just going to take it easy. We're just going to relax and just enjoy it. VICTORIA: Trip of a lifetime for them, I'm sure. WILL: Yes, they loved it. VICTORIA: We have Disneyland over here in California. I have been to Disney World in Florida. But I still haven't been to Disneyland since I've been here, [laughs] which I think some people would judge me for. AGNES: You know what? I haven't been to either. I hold it against my parents forever. [laughter] Although my family is not a big fan of crowds, so I think that's why. WILL: Yes, if you're not a fan of crowds, Disney is not the place, especially now. I've heard around September is probably the best time to go. So we're going to try that out during that time too. AGNES: Ooh, protip. You heard it here first. WILL: Yes. [laughs] VICTORIA: September, Disneyland, Florida sounds very warm to me. [laughs] But yeah, we're actually going to go to Mexico with thoughtbot as a team meetup in September, which is also going to be pretty warm, I think. [laughs] But it'll be fun. Well, that's lovely. I love getting to hear a little bit about your lives before we dig into your business. Agnes, I'm super excited to hear about Senga. But maybe start with just a little bit about your background before you started. AGNES: I had been thinking about starting my own business for a while. I am an immigrant, and I come from an entrepreneurial family. Actually, my mom ran her own translation business back in Hungary, and now she's a really successful artist. So, you know, I had support from them and my husband as well to sort of try out something new. But, in my last role, I was actually Chief Operating Officer at an EdTech company that had scaled to serve over 80% of U.S. schools during the pandemic. And I was at that company for about five years and had seen the full arc of, you know, startup to a mature organization. So I was ready to take on a new challenge and to learn something new. WILL: You mentioned that your mom was an entrepreneur. And my dad was an entrepreneur, also. He had his own electric and HVAC business, and I learned so much from him. Is there anything that you can just, like, ooh, I learned this and this from my mom as a kid, looking at your mom being an entrepreneur? AGNES: I mean, she is just a, you know, fix-it person in every sense of the word. So she will fix an electric outlet. She will fix something with her business. WILL: [laughs] AGNES: She's just, like, really good at getting her hands dirty and being really scrappy. And I think that's a really important skill to have, you know, especially in a startup, and especially when you're starting out and still on your own. VICTORIA: So, what did your parents say when you told them you were going to start out on your own and build your own company? AGNES: They were really encouraging. They, you know, they keep up with all my LinkedIn posts, and they read everything I publish. So they're just very supportive and the best cheerleaders I could possibly hope for. [laughs] WILL: Did stepping out and starting your business did anything scare you in that area? AGNES: Oh my gosh, every day, something new. It's all just uncertainty and risk at this point. You know, I'm very, very early in my startup journey, so literally every question about the business I have to test. I have to find answers for. And that ranges everything from, you know, business formation to, you know, the nuts and bolts of getting the business organized and setting up financials, and the legal structure for the company, to figuring out what the product is going to be. So all this uncertainty is definitely a little bit nerve-racking. VICTORIA: And I'm wondering, what about your past experience as a Chief Operations Officer led you to want to build a product like Senga? AGNES: So being a Chief Operating Officer, I think one of the things that I really learned was that in order for a business to be really successful, and for people working at that company to be really successful, they have to have the organization's support to do what they do best. You know, what I used to tell my operations team was that you know, we were really the plumbers of the organization, making sure that everything ran smoothly behind the scenes. So, actually, that was one of the inspirations for Senga, for my current company, this idea that freelancers and independent workers don't have that support. They don't necessarily have somebody helping them with HR, and with financials, and with legal stuff, and with everything else that goes into running a business, whether you're a business of 1 or a business of 100. And that's really where I wanted to come in and, you know, support independent workers. VICTORIA: One follow-up question for Agnes on your experience in the COO role. I believe your team also had a lot of background in the freelancing world. So you had people you could ask questions to and start to understand that market. Is that right? AGNES: Yeah. Like a lot of businesses, I guess we had, you know, freelancers and contract workers that we relied on. And that's increasingly true for most companies now, I would say. There's specialized roles. There is seasonal roles that you don't necessarily hire full-time employees for but that are perfect for somebody, you know, on a temporary basis or somebody with more specialized skills. So you're exactly right; being able to tap into that network and having had experience working with freelancers and contractors was really helpful coming into the incubator and having people to tap for interviews and for input. VICTORIA: Great. And then, what is the thoughtbot incubator, which we've mentioned a few times already? It is for a non-technical founding team with a business idea that involves a web or a mobile app. It's an eight-week program that helps you get the proof points you need in order to move forward with confidence. So I'm curious, Agnes, what led you to choose the thoughtbot incubator Program as something you wanted to apply to? AGNES: I mean, it's exactly what you named. So this incubator program was really a perfect launching pad for me. It's designed for non-technical founders, like myself, to get their own dedicated team of product and dev experts to, you know, like, hone customer discovery practice, create a product strategy, run proof of concept experiments. And, you know, these were exactly the areas where I lacked skills and expertise the most. So I had actually looked at other incubators and even some venture studios before, but those models were not as good of a fit for me. I was really excited to find and to be able to join thoughtbot's incubator program. MID-ROLL AD: Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future. thoughtbot Lift Off brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices. Make the right decisions for tomorrow, today. Get in touch at: thoughtbot.com/liftoff. WILL: What was the original idea behind Senga? AGNES: The idea that I came into the incubator with and then the pain points that we honed in on during the incubator, and then the long-term vision for the company are all kind of a little bit different. So I'll zoom out first to the sort of 30,000-foot view of this. So, coming into the incubator, I had been reading and researching a lot about some macro trends that I think are really interesting, and these are trends that many of us are keeping an eye on. So they're nothing revolutionary, but I think they're going to create some really interesting problems to solve in the next couple of years. So the first one is the rise of independent workers, or contractors, or freelancers. I'm kind of going to use these terms interchangeably. In recent years, the number of independent workers has shot up like crazy. There are already over 65 million independent workers in the U.S., and this number is growing by about 25% annually. And then, add to this that economic downturns tend to grow this number even more. You know, this makes up about a third of the workforce in the U.S. already, and it's growing. The second thing is that you know, the fact that early-career folks, especially Gen Z, really like the independence and autonomy that comes with this type of work. Over half of Gen Z already freelance, and the majority want to make independent work their career. In other words, they explicitly do not want to work for a company in the traditional sense. And then, third, there's kind of a mishmash of factors that I'll lump into one bullet that additionally drive up this type of work, which is that, increasingly, jobs are going to be skills-based, not degree-based, and all work, even white-collar work, will become more modular. Both tech advances and even, I think, novel organizational structures are going to make it possible for people to hyper-specialize and to plug into different organizations at different times, and, you know, even simultaneously to perform that specialized work. So take all this together, and what I'm really seeing is that the current market offerings serving freelancers and contractors are not nearly enough to meet all their needs, which is driving huge inefficiency. The types of companies that cater to this segment now or, you know, there's mature marketplaces like Upwork, and Fiverr, and some earlier-stage companies that do, you know, more workflow and back office. But I'm not seeing a comprehensive solution, and that's driving like I said, a lot of inefficiency. So, ultimately, being a freelancer is still really hard. Only about 50% of a freelancer's time is spent on billable work. And so this is what I really want to solve. VICTORIA: And did anything change through the incubator process? AGNES: So the biggest thing I found during the incubator was actually a really good entry point into this market. So startup wisdom says that you have to narrow down your product to a super tight segment that has a very strong, like, yes to your product. So, during the course of the eight weeks that I did the incubator, we did a ton of interviews, and I was really on the lookout for big spikes and pain points that repeated for a specific niche of freelancers. And that's exactly what we ended up finding. There's lots of nuance to this, but generally speaking, people new to freelancing and those that are just looking to get started need help getting started in a more manageable way and then setting up good practices that will serve them in the long run. WILL: You mentioned those practices that helps them set them up in the long run. Are you talking about mostly the operation, so, like, anything that's non-billable for a client? AGNES: Exactly, yeah. So that's kind of how I think about the work is anything that's billable and then anything that's non-billable. So that includes client management, client communication, marketing themselves, finding, you know, new work, so drumming up new business, all the back-office financials, back-office legal and admin stuff. All these other things that traditionally would be, you know, done by, you know, an operations team at a big company, but, for freelancers, they have to do it themselves. WILL: Yeah, I love that idea because my spouse she dipped her toe into the freelance world. And I felt like the operations kind of overcame everything else. And so it almost felt like the operations was taking over the job. But it's one of those things I feel like we didn't really think through of how much work that that 50% is. Like, how much work do you have to do, which are taxes, operations, speaking to clients, even to get to the things that people usually love, like the design, the software development? So I'm excited about this product. AGNES: Yeah, exactly. And that's kind of what I kept hearing again and again in interviews with all sorts of different freelancers because we went out and interviewed folks from, you know, everywhere from graphic design, to UX/UI design, to web developers, to other types of creatives, content creators. And this idea that they all get into freelancing to pursue their passion, the thing that they're uniquely good at. But then end up spending a huge chunk of their time on, you know, things that they're not really specialized in, you know, basically running their business. VICTORIA: What types of experiments did you run while you were in the incubator program with the people you mentioned you're talking to? And what were the demands on your time really like? AGNES: Oh, so the program is between 20 to 40 hours a week. I had a chance to meet with my thoughtbot team daily. We had independent work time, also breakout sessions. Like you said, a lot of that time was spent doing interviews and running all sorts of different experiments, so discovery interviews, interviews showing the prototype once we had it to interviewees. But we also set up Google Ads. We created a landing page with various calls to action. And then based on who was coming through the landing page and what they were doing on the site, we had all sorts of, you know, lessons that we could take away from that. And then another piece of it was I also learned how to basically start building out an organic community around this problem and from, you know, the community of freelancers, which is so important to have, like, for a future user base and also to be able to continue to engage with my target audience. WILL: Was there anything that surprised you about the program, or did you have any interesting findings coming out of the program? AGNES: One thing I learned through the program was that you know, there are concrete steps that you can take and a process that you can follow to build out a strong business that solves real problems for people. And that's really what this program and this incubator is focused on, is to teach you those skills to go through those early steps. You know, everything that I had read before about startups they're kind of clouded in mystery. And, you know, the big ones that end up being really successful tend to be mythologized, and founder stories tend to have these, like, big eureka moments in them, where the founder had their big idea that led to the big company. But really, at the early stage, it's pretty messy. And nevertheless, you have these steps that you can follow and processes that you can follow to build out the company. VICTORIA: And how are you feeling now at the end of the program? AGNES: I feel really excited and, frankly, more confident than I came into the program. So, you know, I'm leaving here with lots of good data, lots of good anecdotal evidence, having had dozens and dozens of conversations with my target market. So, for me, that's a really great feeling to know that my ideas they don't just exist in the abstract in my head but that we've bounced them against the universe and confirmed that folks are having the pain points that we expected and some that we did not expect. And that there is an opportunity around this. WILL: So, what could be done better about the incubator program from your perspective? AGNES: It was a great program, and that's a pretty hard question to answer. But, you know, I would selfishly say make it longer. Eight weeks is, by design, you know, a pretty short time to get started. And that's really what the program is designed to do is to get you started, to set you up with good practices and good tools. But, again, selfishly, I wish it were a little bit longer, so I can stick around and have the thoughtbot team around me. And then I just look forward to building more of a community as more founders join thoughtbot's incubator every quarter. We have a shared Slack channel that I'm going to continue hanging out in and that I've been told the new founders, as well, will be added to. So I'm looking forward to getting to meet them and to, you know, hear about their experience as well. VICTORIA: What's coming up next for you in the next six months? AGNES: So I'm talking to a couple of potential partners in the next couple of weeks, which might kind of change the roadmap slightly. But, basically, this summer and fall, I'm building out a lot of the content and the prototype for Senga. Again, continuing to talk to the freelancers I've been continuing to talk to. I'm also putting together sort of, like, an advisory committee of freelancers I've met along the way who had a strong yes sort of reaction to this product. And then my goal is that by fall or winter, I'll be able to start building out an MVP. WILL: That's exciting. AGNES: Yeah, I'm really excited. [laughs] WILL: Your dream is finally coming true, so, yeah, you have something to be excited about. [laughs] Do you have any advice for any other founders? AGNES: I guess I don't know how qualified I feel to be, you know, handing out advice as a brand-new founder. But, overall, I would encourage others out there who are interested in taking this path to, you know, really take a risk and to bet on themselves. What I've found in the last couple of months is that there are so many supportive communities, and founder groups, and entrepreneur groups. And this is kind of common advice, and everybody says this, but there's really no way you can fully prepare. You just kind of have to start doing. And at least from what I've seen, that's the secret sauce to this early stage is to keep doing and to keep going from one step to the next every day. VICTORIA: If you could travel back in time and give yourself advice from when before this all started, what advice would you give yourself? AGNES: I would just encourage myself to, you know, take the plunge and maybe even go down this path sooner. You know, I feel really confident where I'm at now in terms of my career and my, you know, support networks and everything. But being able to go back and start experimenting earlier and start going down this path earlier might have even set me up better. WILL: One thing when you're starting a startup is funding. Are you looking for any funding? AGNES: Not urgently, but I'm definitely interested in talking to others working and investing in this space. So, you know, if any of your listeners are investors or entrepreneurs in a similar space, I would love to talk to them. WILL: Yeah. So, how could they reach you if they wanted to reach out to you? AGNES: You can reach me by email at hello@senga.app, or you can find us on LinkedIn at Senga. VICTORIA: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You could find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. WILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Agnes Malatinszky.

Irfan Alam is the CEO of Frontrow Health, a startup with a mission to finally put Americans in the front row of their own healthcare. Will and Victoria talk to Irfan about his background in business strategy and development for healthcare companies, how he went about searching for and building the perfect team, and how he started the culture of Frontrow Health on a level where there is balance and people want to join because it has a good culture. Frontrow Health (https://thefrontrowhealth.com/) Follow Frontrow Health LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/frontrowhealth/). Follow Irfan Alam on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/irfanalam12/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Irfan Alam, Founder, and CEO at Frontrow Health, a startup with a mission to finally put Americans in the front row of their own healthcare. WILL: Hi, Irfan. Thank you for joining us. IRFAN: Thanks for having me; super excited to chat more about the whole process of building and launching Frontrow Health. VICTORIA: Yes, we're super excited. Of course, I know you as a client of thoughtbot, and I'm excited to hear your story. And you have this background in business strategy and development for healthcare companies. But what led you to decide to start your own platform? IRFAN: I think it was a combination of two things; one was a lived experience being inspired by the power of entrepreneurship with my family and then working at Everlywell. And then two, it was discovering and being reminded of a critical problem that I saw in the industry that I then became excited about solving. So growing up, I was raised by my two parents and my grandparents. My grandfather was an entrepreneur himself and also an immigrant and kind of brought our whole legacy of my family into the U.S. from Southeast Asia. He has always motivated me to take risks and to build something great for the world, and that's what he's always wanted for me. And so I joined Everlywell, a small digital health startup, back in 2019 because I was excited to get my feet wet in the world of startups. It was just within a number of months after that I had joined where COVID-19 hit, and Everlywell, a home lab testing company based out of Austin, got swept up into the storm of COVID and, in a lot of ways, threw ourselves into the center of the storm when we ended up launching the first home COVID-19 test. And it was that summer of 2020 when I probably had the most profound personal and professional growing experience of my life, just trying to handle this chaos and confusing world that we were all living in. But then also simultaneously watching how a small team could make an outsized impact in the world during a time of need. And that really led me to want to pursue my own startup ambitions. So I started thinking about business school. The founder and CEO, Julia Cheek, went to Harvard Business School in 2009 and publicly talks about it being sort of this magical moment in time where people were flooding in from the downturn economy, excited about solving new problems. And her class of graduates is sort of like a famous class of entrepreneurs. And so I brought it up with her, and she was super supportive. And I went through the process and got super lucky. And I decided to take the summer off in 2021 before coming to HBS and moving back to Boston. And it was during that summer where I started thinking about the problems that companies like Everlywell and direct-to-consumer health brands faced that I realized was not just at the fault of their own but because the industry didn't have the right digital tools necessary to succeed. That's sort of the origin of how Frontrow Health came to be. WILL: Sweet. So perfect segue; tell us more about the mission of Frontrow Health. IRFAN: We're on a mission to put people on the front row of their own healthcare. And we really just want to reimagine how people shop for their healthcare online. What I learned at Everlywell was that this boom of consumer health which means people who are taking charge of their own health and are able to do that directly through these digital health companies was a form of healthcare that could create a tremendous amount of value in people's lives. But that was only really accessible to a small niche audience. And it didn't feel like it was equitably accessible to the average American. And so some of those barriers that I realized as a part of my work at Everlywell for why the average American wasn't engaging with consumer health, this otherwise really powerful form of taking charge of your own health and wellness, was because of these three blockers that we're trying to address at Frontrow Health. The first being that people just don't know about what kinds of solutions are out there that can address their health issues beyond just taking a prescription medication given to them by the doctor that they visit in their office. The second is if they do know, they don't know what to trust. They don't know whether this spam of healthcare companies that they're getting advertisements on from Instagram are the right companies, whether these products are safe and effective for them uniquely because of their unique health issues their unique health history. And then finally, even if they are aware and they do trust the health product, at the end of the day, a lot of Americans just can't afford to spend money out of pocket to pay for these consumer health and wellness products like consumables, devices, virtual services, et cetera. And so Frontrow Health is all about trying to break down those barriers in order to unleash consumer health to the average American. VICTORIA: And were you always drawn to that healthcare industry from the beginning? IRFAN: Yeah. So I grew up very privileged with two parents who are physicians. My mom is a psychiatrist, which is quite rare for women of color, specifically of South Asian descent, to be a psychiatrist. And then my dad was a gastroenterologist. They were always the gut-brain connection between the two. And so, growing up, I somewhat classically assumed that I was going to be a doctor. Got to college, thought that that was going to be my path. I realized quickly that there is a whole world outside of being a physician yourself that I could still be a part of in healthcare without being a doctor. My parents actually, interestingly enough, began to encourage me to think beyond just being a doctor, with them both feeling like the amount of scale of impact that they could have would never be the same as someone who could do that through business or policy or these other facets that are important to healthcare. And so I got to undergrad, started studying policy economics. I started doing internships at different healthcare consulting firms. And I ended up first working at a life science business strategy consulting firm out of college. And it was great, but it ended up not being what I was most excited about because it was really focused on the biopharmaceutical and medical device industry. And what I realized when I got there was I just had this growing passion for digital health and technology, as I saw that it was kind of the future of how people were going to be able to take more preventative charge and improve their health over the long term. And so I was working on this digital health white paper with a partner at the consulting firm I was at, and I was doing research and stumbled upon Everlywell. And then, they had a job opening for this business strategy role. So that's why I ended up taking the leap into the startup world, into the digital health world, and just loved it and kept wanting to continue to grow my experience in that space. WILL: That's amazing. Your parents encouraged you to step outside of just the doctor-physician role and to think higher. So, as a founder, you know, it was amazing that your parents, as physicians, encouraged you to think higher and think into different roles. And as a founder, what were some of the decisions you had to make? What were some of the easier ones? What were some that were surprisingly difficult? IRFAN: I think the biggest misnomer of the founding experience is that founding a company is extremely linear. Sometimes you go one direction forward, and then you take a direction diagonally back, and then you go horizontally straight, and that was my story. When I do my pitch about Frontrow, I try to make it feel a little bit more linear, so it makes sense to people. But the truth is the quote, unquote, "hardest decisions" were about every time there was a direction changing point, and it required a decision about is this the right idea? Do I want to spend more time on another idea? Have I validated this enough? Should I validate it differently? Should I pursue this one further? What does that pursuit look like? Who should I pursue it with? Is it time to raise money? Do I drop out of school? Like, those direction-changing points that then create this much more complex map of the founder experience versus a linear line up into the right is, I think, the more challenging parts of being a founder. VICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense that you have to really go through this iterative process to figure out where are you spending your time, is it in the right place? A lot of hard decisions to make. And while you were founding Frontrow Health, you were also a part-time investor at Rock Health and reviewing other healthcare startup proposals. So did you see any trends or patterns that influenced how you progressed as a founder? IRFAN: Totally, yeah. That was actually instrumental to Frontrow Health. So the story is when I took the summer off before business school, I started thinking about different problems in the world, healthcare, and non-healthcare. Or actually, to be clear, I started thinking about lots of different solutions and ideas and then quickly began to realize that that was not the right approach to founding. I think the first step is to think about problems, problems you've seen, problems you've experienced, that you know others are experiencing, and then work to a solution from there by starting with what the user is experiencing. And so as I was going through that hacky journey over the summer, just randomly, a number of small healthcare companies started reaching out to me asking me for my opinion and advice about how or whether they should go direct-to-consumer, whether they should sell healthcare products direct to the consumer, which is what I did a lot of work on at Everlywell as one of the pioneering consumer health brands in the space. And I started to notice this trend of me telling these companies, "No, don't do it. It's really expensive. It's really ineffective and unprofitable to acquire customers through traditional paid media avenues like Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat, Facebook, et cetera." And, unsurprisingly, you could imagine Everlywell was trying to sell a home diabetes test for people who are type 2 diabetics but were only able to target people based on their interest in yoga and running, which is not really a substitute for a severe chronic condition. And as a result, thousands of people would see our ads every day that had no clinical relevance to our solution. And that was one of the deep problems of why consumer health companies weren't able to reach out to the audiences that actually really needed their solutions. And so when I got to Rock Health at the first semester in business school, doing this sort of part-time investor gig, on the first day, the partners basically told me, "Oh, we don't invest in consumer health." And I was like, "Oh, whoa, okay, that's my jam. That's a bummer. That's like [laughs] the only thing that I know about." And as I started to see the data and the pipeline of companies that were looking for investments and understanding what their unit economics looked like, what their go-to-market approaches looked like, that's when I started to put the dots together that this was not just an Everlywell problem; this was an industry problem. Mark Zuckerberg didn't build Facebook so that direct-to-consumer healthcare companies can cost-effectively target clinically relevant patients online. That just happens to be what it's being used for today. And so that's when I started to realize that there had to be a quote-unquote, "better way." WILL: You bring up social media at Frontrow Health. Have you had to combat the medical advice of social media? IRFAN: Yeah. You mean like this concept of quote, unquote, "Instagram medicine?" WILL: Yes. Yes. IRFAN: It's a great question. So as the story continues, I began to think about what is the right solution to this problem? And instead of Everlywell, I started thinking about the right solution to this problem. What I realized was instead of Everlywell wasting away millions of dollars to big tech companies that wasn't going to improving the health of anybody, what if we gave that money back to the consumer in reward for sharing their health information which would allow us to target them with the right clinically relevant products? That was the first version of Frontrow Health. I called it Health Mart back then. And so I basically started to get people to fill out a Google Form with their health data. And then I worked with my parents to send weekly product recommendations over email based on their unique health needs; you know, I want to sleep better; I'm a diabetic, whatever it is. And then, I wanted to see if I was just going to Venmo them cashback upon purchase if they were going to be any more likely to buy these products for these health brands. And at first, people were incrementally more likely to buy. It wasn't mind-blowing. And so, as I started to talk to the participants of the study, I started saying, "You know, you said that you have high cholesterol. These supplements have active ingredients that have been shown to reduce LDL levels. It's pretty cheap. I'm giving you 25-30% cashback. Why haven't you bought it?" And what they started saying was, "Well, I don't know what these active ingredients are. And before I put that in my body, I want to check with my doctor first." And so that was the final aha moment that led us to Frontrow Health, which is, what if we could bring the doctor into the fold? And instead of consumers just experiencing this Instagram medicine where they're just being blasted with Instagram ads every day about different health products, and they don't know what to trust, that second barrier that I talked about earlier, what if the doctor could instead of just being a guide for what prescription medications you should be taking could also be a guide on what health and wellness products you can be using? And so I added my dad to the email thread, and I said, "Okay, you can talk to an independent medical provider and ask them questions about the products that you're being recommended." And that's when people started buying because then they were able to find the trust in the products that were being curated based on their unique information. WILL: Wow, that's really neat. So to help the audience understand your iteration today, so the first iteration was just giving products and then Venmoing them back cashback. And then the second was bringing in a provider. So what does the product look like today? IRFAN: We went through, like you mentioned, a lot of different iterations of this. There were even prior iterations to this that are more representative of that founder map versus the linear line that you've sort of just heard now. But in terms of where the story went from there, I began to think about how to validate this idea further. I came into winter break; the pilot went well. People were buying a lot of products. And so, I decided to sunset my part-time investor gig at Rock Health and decided to reallocate all my time to working on Health Mart at the time. What I started to think about was, well, what if the doctor was able to earn compensation for writing private product reviews regardless of their opinions? So that was the next iteration was like, how do you incentivize a doctor to take time out of their day to do this new behavior that doesn't exist? Doctors are not writing personalized private product reviews for their patients on supplements, home medical devices, apps, et cetera. And how could we get them to? And so, I started thinking about what are the different motivations of providers? Their time is extremely valuable. How do you incentivize them correctly without incentivizing them to give good or bad feedback but just honest feedback? Then I started basically having my dad recommend Health Mart to his patients every day to see would patients sign up. Like, if doctors were intrinsically motivated to get their patients on the platform so that they can help them get away from Instagram medicine and at the same time earn compensation for themselves as an additional revenue stream, could independent medical providers see that as valuable and a good use of their time? And the first piece of that about whether patients would sign up worked unsurprisingly very well. If your doctor is telling you to sign up for something, or it's free to sign up, and you only pay when you want to buy a product, and they're going to, for the user, be able to ask for feedback from the provider, they were pretty excited. But then the question of would doctors sign up, I started...basically, I had my mom. The next iteration was I had my mom make a couple of posts in these doctor Facebook groups. I put together a little website, a very ugly version of what we have today for a provider marketing page. And I had my mom drop the link in a couple of different doctor Facebook groups. And we actually started getting signups from the doctors. And then, as we started talking to them, what we realized was two things; it was like a win-win. The doctor was happy because they were getting compensated, and they were happy because their patients' health was improving. So when Obama was in administration, he passed a really fundamentally important piece of legislation called The Sunshine Act. And that basically ended this quote, unquote, "golden era" of pharma companies giving kickbacks to doctors. WILL: Oh wow. IRFAN: And so since then, doctors have been very eager to find additional revenue streams that they can leverage their decades of medical expertise to earn. They got medical bills to pay off loans to pay off. They spent 20 years training for this job. And so they were excited about an additional revenue stream that leveraged their medical expertise and also helped their patient. Because they also started saying things like, "Well, my patients are always asking me like, 'What about these supplements I saw for these ads online?'" And the doctor says, "I don't know what these supplements are. WILL: [laughs] IRFAN: I don't have the data in front of me. I don't know what the ingredients are. I don't know whether to trust the company or not." And we are building a platform where it's all streamlined for the provider. The provider is able to review the clinical information. They're able to review their patient information. They're able to really quickly write reviews. We give them templates. We give them suggestions. They're able to reapply recent reviews. And so that was sort of the next iteration. And that's actually when thoughtbot came in and when I started thinking about raising a small round, getting a dev shop to help me build the MVP. And that's kind of how the semester ended up closing out. VICTORIA: I love that your mom and dad were so supportive, it sounds like, of you going full-time on this startup. Was that scary for them for you to do that? IRFAN: It's so funny, yeah. So what happened next was I decided I wanted to start raising a small round because I had the conviction that there was a problem to be solved for consumers, for doctors, and for health brands. And we could build this one unique multi-sided marketplace to solve them. I ended up going back to Austin for spring break partially to visit my family and partially because I wanted to pitch to Julia, the founder of Everlywell, who I thought of all people on planet Earth would understand what I'm trying to do. She would get it because I am building a SaaS solution for health brands like Everlywell and her consumers. And she got it. She was jazzed. And so, she decided to angel invest. And that basically spurred a ton of interest from venture capital firms. I wasn't originally thinking about raising an institutional round but was very lucky with the timing. Just before the market crashed, it was a very hot market. And so we ended up closing a real seed round with the question on hand about whether I should pursue this full-time because the capital that I raised necessitated building a real team. Or should I just take a smaller amount of money and go back to school? And it's unsurprisingly, every different person in my life had some opinion about this, from my wife to my investors, to my parents, to my friends. What I wanted was somewhere nestled in between all of those things. And when I caught my dad up on the phone a couple of weeks after spring break and told him of all the crazy stuff that had been happening...and it was just happening and unfolding so quickly. I was like, "Okay, dad. I'm laying out all my cards here. You have full liberty to be mad at me for wanting to drop out of Harvard." And his first reaction was, "Well, you know, I don't really see the downside. Like, you could either start a company that you're really passionate about and it could go well, or you could be the worst entrepreneur of all time and then just come back to school during this leave of absence," or deferral thing that I'm on right now. And that was the first time where I was like, "Oh, you know what? I think you're right." And the truth was I decided to just continue to let the summer go by to think about the decision a little bit more before I formally submitted my deferral to HBS. As the markets turned, we realized that we needed to hire internally to save on cash burn a little bit. And so once I had built this really awesome team that I'm so lucky to be surrounded by, that's when I was, you know, without a doubt in my mind, I was like, I got to keep pushing for this because now we have this awesome team that just wants to keep driving this mission forward. And we were getting traction. We were talking to hundreds of doctors over the summer. We were talking to health brands. And it really felt like we were onto something. MID-ROLL AD: thoughtbot is thrilled to announce our own incubator launching this year. If you are a non-technical founding team with a business idea that involves a web or mobile app, we encourage you to apply for our eight-week program. We'll help you move forward with confidence in your team, your product vision, and a roadmap for getting you there. Learn more and apply at tbot.io/incubator. That's T-B-O-T.I-OVICTORIA: I-N-C-U-B-A-T-O-R. WILL: I hear you have an amazing product team. How did you go about searching and building the right team? IRFAN: We got lucky in a second way because of timing, where the first time was I raised the capital when the market was really hot in April. And then, I started hiring when the market crashed. And, unfortunately, as you all know, lots of people have been getting laid off since the summer, particularly in the tech world: designers, engineers, marketers, et cetera. Now, all of a sudden, there was a flood of really great talent on the market. And that was also what spurred me to start thinking about hiring sooner than I was originally planning to. My forecast was to hire people end of this year, maybe in a month or so from now, to start that process. Versus, we ended up making our first full-time hire, I guess in July, maybe. And it was...the best way I can describe it is like dominoes falling where once you get the first one in, then it builds trust and credibility, and then the next one comes, and the next one. And so the first couple of folks were these two brilliant engineers who were close friends of my interim CTO and classmate, Amit, who was helping us build the foundation of the product this past summer. He did an amazing job of basically recruiting one engineer, Anand, our first engineer who started his career as a PM at Microsoft and then turned into a software engineer at a number of different startups and studied comp sci and electrical engineering at Berkeley with Amit, where they first met. And then the second engineer was Nupur, who was a colleague of Amit, a machine learning engineer at Google Brain and the moonshot X team at Alphabet. And they were both, I think, just kind of tired of big tech and were ready to bet on the upside and their career. And the timing was right based on where the market conditions were. And so they decided to take the leap of faith with me. And then after that, or around that time, kind of in the middle, we were able to bring on our head of design, Jakub, who is like a unicorn human with so much rich experience in the product world. So he was a computer animator and then studied visual arts, but then started his career very early in the coupon website space as a product designer actually. And then led product design as a founding designer at a number of different startups. And then, most recently, was a senior product designer at Roman, which is a really large digital health company similar to Everlywell. And Ro, Everlywell, Truepill, all these companies had mass layoffs in the middle of the summer. And so when Jakub took my call...He talks about a really funny story where he wasn't taking me seriously at all. Convincing these excellent, talented people to come join my dinky startup at the time was not easy. WILL: [laughs] IRFAN: And so he just kind of took it because there was a mutual connection. Or he just said, okay, I'll explore what's going on given how crazy the market is. But once he heard what we were building, he was immediately on board, actually, because Roman has also struggled with the same customer acquisition problems. And it's a huge reason why a lot of these digital health companies continue to remain unprofitable. And so he understood the problem deeper than I think anyone because of the experience he had in the same space that we were in. And he realized that there was an opportunity to build a solution to solve these problems. So that was the first core team. And then from there, it kind of just snowballed, you know, there was more and more interest from other folks to join. And we brought in a great junior product designer. We just hired our platform engineer. But that was the original core team from the summer who took the big leap of faith and joined because of the market conditions, the belief in the space. And we actually just met up in San Diego for the first time for a company retreat in person. And it was just fun meeting everyone in person for the first time because now I get to know them as real people and see all their personalities. And we're really psyched about coming to product launch pretty soon here. VICTORIA: That's wonderful and, you know, that compelling vision and having those first initial people join and brought in everyone else. You know, I think part of the reason people are hesitant to join startups is because there is that reputation for kind of unhealthy work-life balance. So you're a healthcare startup. So how do you start the culture of your company on a level where there is that balance and people want to join because it has a good culture? IRFAN: It's a super interesting question that we spent a lot of time actually talking about in San Diego as a team. And it was brought up because I have a somewhat unhealthy relationship with work. And I am constantly working. And this is the most important thing right now in our life. And so Nupur, one of our engineers, had a phenomenal analogy that I think is the right framework to think about this from a company culture perspective. Because I've always tried to share with a team, like, I don't expect them to work nearly as much as I do, and I don't want them to either. I think the analogy was such a fun, helpful way to think about why that was the case. And so she kind of said, "I'm like the aunt, and you're like the single father. And the aunt doesn't have to take care of the baby at nighttime and on the weekends, but the single father does. And it's not that the aunt doesn't care about the company, but there's some space and boundary in that relationship." And so that's actually our motto right now is like, yeah, we all care about this product and this company, quote, unquote, "baby," but there's always biologically intrinsically going to be a deeper relationship between me and this company, for good reason. And so that is going to require me to work harder and longer than anyone else, probably for a long, long time. And I had to be ready for that. My wife and I had to be ready for that. And so far, honestly, I've never been busier. But I've also never been...or, like, I've never had this ratio between busyness and stress where I'm really busy but not that stressed. And I think it's just because I love what I'm doing every day. I haven't ever found this happy balance where I actually just enjoy what I do. And I'm constantly excited about continuing to build the right product to help people. WILL: Wow. VICTORIA: I'm actually babysitting my niece and nephew this weekend. [laughter] My brother would say, "You need to be here on the weekends with them." IRFAN: Maybe not the perfect analogy. But-- VICTORIA: I like it, though. It makes sense. [laughs] WILL: There's a difference. [laughter] VICTORIA: Oh yeah. Will knows; he's a dad. WILL: Yeah. I know company values can be so...we have them. Do we follow them? Or sometimes they get put on the shelf. I was reading your company values, "People first, bias for curiosity, and dream big." For Frontrow Health, how does that play a role in the day-to-day? IRFAN: When Jakub, Nupur, and Anand had all joined like that first core team, we actually spent time writing all this out and creating a document that discussed what the company culture and values were. And we looked at different examples of other companies. Amazon famously has, I don't know, these 16 principles. And we kind of said, okay, we want to pick just a couple because you can't always focus on everything at the same time. And we need some sort of guiding North Star if you will. And so these were the three that we came up with, the ones that you mentioned. So we are people first; we have a bias for curiosity, and we want to dream big. So people first to us means that our mission like we talked about, we want to increase access to healthcare at home for the average American. And so every decision that we make at the company has to pass that litmus test first. Whatever feature we're building, whatever business model approach we're taking, whatever go–to–market approach that we're taking, is what we're doing going to increase access to healthcare at home for the average American? Yes? Then we continue onwards, and then we continue deliberating and deciding; if not, we pass. And so that is how we determine whether we can continue to be people first because that is our mission. And as we're going down that thread, we want to push ourselves to constantly be bettering and asking questions about how we can be better. That is the bias for curiosity. That was one of Everlywell's company values and was the one that I resonated with the most. I find tremendous value in asking questions. Nupur on our team, one of our engineers, is a great example of bias for curiosity. She's constantly challenging and asking the right questions. And that helps us be better at being people first and increasing access even more than we can because we're never settled with what exists today. And then dreaming big is about finding answers to those questions and not settling for the tried and true paths. Some of the greatest companies that have ever been created are the ones that invent new behaviors that have never existed before. So Airbnb, now all of a sudden, people are comfortable with strangers living in their homes. Uber, now all of a sudden, people are comfortable driving in a stranger's car. At Frontrow Health, we're dreaming big in a world where doctors are not currently engaging with their patients related to their home health and wellness journeys when they leave the four walls of their clinic. How can we change the behavior where doctors are more involved in that relationship in a way that doesn't exist today? And so that's a part of what we're trying to do, and dreaming big to go and increase access, like I said, is our ultimate North Star. WILL: Wow. You said something I think that was...it seemed very small, but I think it said a lot about you and your company. You said that you encourage your engineer to ask the hard questions. I think so many times, people hate the hard questions. They are fearful of that. But I think in your field, you have to be able to ask the hard questions. So that's amazing that you brought that up, and you're talking about that. IRFAN: Yeah. And it doesn't...it's not just me, for sure. I think my team is...and it's kind of you to point that out. But yeah, my team does such a great job of holding true to these values on their own and pushing me to remind myself of these values. Nupur actually is Slacking me right now about some thought that she had coming out of a meeting. WILL: [laughs] IRFAN: And two points about different alternative ways to think about things. And yeah, I want to keep encouraging them and our future employees to do that. Because you look at the worst examples in healthcare, in particular, tech as well, the worst examples of companies are the ones where the employees were not able to or encouraged to ask questions; that's when things go south. So Theranos is the simplest example of this where they were hiding everything from their employees, and people had questions constantly but never asked them. And that's when more and more bad decisions were made. So I don't want that to be the case for Frontrow. And so it has to start with, yeah, this bias for curiosity. VICTORIA: That makes sense. And I wonder if that's part of your success, being someone who doesn't have a background in engineering or programming specifically and enabling your technical team to build what they need to get done. IRFAN: Yeah. I can't honestly explain to you guys how much I've learned over the past six months from my product and dev team. And you're right that I think one could see my lack of programming as a weakness which, in a lot of ways, it is. But what has also manifested as a result of that is I have naturally had to lean more heavily on my dev team to be owners of decisions that affect our business and to challenge them to think about are we being people first if we build and design solutions in the way that you're describing? I don't know the right approach about how to build this, or on what tech stack, or in what capacity we have the ability to. You guys have to take ownership of thinking through those, solving those problems, and coming up with the right decision. And as a founder, that's scary to do. You're giving up control of the decisions to others. But at the same time, by giving them that autonomy and encouraging them to take ownership of it, they feel I think more and more invested in what we're building. And that hopefully builds the habit of what you guys were talking about around wanting to constantly seek better solutions, challenge because they know that they have a voice in how things turn out. VICTORIA: Right. Maybe you've discovered this naturally or through your education and background. But studies that are done around high-performing technology organizations find that no matter what processes or tools you have if you have that high-trust environment, you'll have better security, more software development throughput, all of those things. So I think you're doing it right by setting your values and creating that kind of high-trust environment. IRFAN: Super interesting. I didn't know that, actually, but it makes sense. [laughs] We've been seeing it. I actually want to give some credit to thoughtbot because thoughtbot helped us set a lot of this important engineering culture at the very beginning, where I had to rely on my thoughtbot engineers, folks like Jesse, Dave, and others, to help me make the best decision for my company. They taught me a lot of these things at the earliest stage back in May around, okay, like, you guys are a consulting firm at the end of the day, technically speaking. But they pushed me to think of it more as how do we co-make these decisions? Like, how do we leverage each other's strengths to make the right decisions? The thoughtbot design team and engineering team...one of our designers through thoughtbot, Steven, is so funny because...and I gave him this feedback, which is great feedback, which is like, he constantly asked questions. And if he hears this, he'll laugh because he's constantly pushing, like, "Why are we designing it this way? Why do you think it should be this way? Where is the evidence that the user wants it to be this way?" And it was a great setup for when our internal team came on because I just kept up that momentum. And then they just kind of took with it and ran. VICTORIA: How did you find us, or how did you find the right technical partners in the very beginning to help you build your vision? IRFAN: It was not an immediately simple process. But when I found thoughtbot, it kind of unraveled quite quickly in a good way. So I was working with Amit like I mentioned, who'll become our interim CTO, one of my classmates at HBS. And he helped me put together an RFP where we outlined all the different feature requirements, all the different intentions for our solution or timeline, our costs, et cetera. And I just did a lot of Google research about different dev shops, and I started talking to dev shops in lots of different locations, U.S.-based, European-based, Asian-based, Latin America-based, started comparing prices. We had questions where we wanted to see their creativity in developing solutions. We started accepting proposals, reviewing those proposals. I somehow stumbled upon thoughtbot's website during this process. And I noticed that Everlywell was one of thoughtbot's clients, Everlywell, the home lab testing company that I used to work at before business school. I was like, oh wow. I knew that our engineering team and our engineering leadership had a really high bar for when we worked with outsourced talent. And so I thought that that spoke volumes about choosing thoughtbot. And so then we actually ended up asking Everlywell CTO an unprompted question of like, "If you had to pick any dev house that you've known or have worked with, et cetera, that was supposed to build you custom software from scratch, who would you pick?" And he said, "thoughtbot." It wasn't even like a question of, what do you think of thoughtbot? Or, what was your experience? It was just like, imagine you had to pick, and, unprompted, he said thoughtbot. So that was actually what did it for me. And I kind of threw aside all the other logistical hoopla that we were going through and said, you know, I got to trust the people who I know and trust, and having verbal confirmation of that was huge. And then, of course, I enjoyed speaking with Dawn at thoughtbot, who was helping broker the whole discussion, and it felt easy. And their proposal was also quite strong. And then, as I dug deeper into thoughtbot, it became clear that no pun intended, you guys are kind of the thought leaders in a lot of ways. WILL: [laughs] IRFAN: It's funny, our head of design, Jakub, when I mentioned that he's a unicorn, it's because he also taught himself coding and programming. WILL: Wow. IRFAN: So he's like a pseudo designer and programmer. He can do a little bit of everything. And he actually...when I told him that we were working with thoughtbot, he was like, "Oh, I learned Ruby on Rails back in the day from thoughtbot with whatever content they had published back in time." And then, as I spoke to other dev shops about going with thoughtbot, they started saying things like, "Oh, thoughtbot, yeah, they're kind of the OGs of Rails and a lot of the core tech stack that's been around for a while." And so it was just continued validation of the right approach. And then, we started working with the team in May, right after my second semester of business school ended. And it's been an incredible process. We have never missed any deadlines, and we're actually two months ahead of schedule. And it's not just because they're good at what they do, but it's also because of the culture and the teaching me about the best way to run retros, and sprint planning, and things to think about in terms of trust in your engineer and building that trust, and all the soft, intangible things. It wasn't just like thoughtbot came in and built code. It was thoughtbot came in and helped establish the company in a lot of ways. VICTORIA: That's great to hear. Thank you for saying all those wonderful things. I'm sure me and Will agree 100%. [laughter] IRFAN: Yeah, it's been an awesome process. And yeah, we've even ended up basically bringing on as a full-time independent contractor someone who worked through thoughtbot because we love them so much. And they were just so excellent at what they did. And just, yeah, I think that probably speaks the most volumes about the kind of organization that you guys are running. WILL: I appreciate you saying that. That means a lot. It really does. I want to take a second to kind of circle back and kind of talk about how you find the providers because I think, for me, one of the most influential classes I had in college was my professor said, "Hey, meet me at the pharmacy." So we went to the pharmacy, and he started asking us questions. And he was like, "What medicine do you think would be the most impactful?" And we would try to pull it out. He taught us how to compare the active ingredients. IRFAN: Wow. WILL: Like how some stuff is just marketing, and it's not really helpful and things like that. But I also saw the side, you know, the amazing providers like your parents. You talking about your parents just reminded me of my parents and how supportive they are. So it's just amazing. You had your parents as providers. How did you find providers beyond that that you have to extend that trust to them? IRFAN: I guess two reactions. The first is how do we talk to doctors to get feedback on our solution as we're building it? And then how do we get doctors to sign up and use our solution with their patients? Those are the two chronological steps. So for the first one, we very liberally use a platform called usertesting.com, which we used at Everlywell, where I first got introduced to it. And it's amazing. We have the unlimited package, and we run tons of user tests a day. So, over the summer, we were literally having unmoderated tests from medical professionals, about ten healthcare professionals a day who were coming to our website, coming to our product, giving their feedback through these unmoderated tests. We were quantitatively assessing qualitatively assessing their responses to specific questions that we were asking them. Like, was it easy enough to write a review? What were you expecting to see? How did that compare to what you did see? Like, all the traditional kind of user research. They really helped us build the product, and then we were able to follow up with them, get on the phone with them, ask them more questions about their experience, about their current experience in their clinic, whether patients are asking them about these things, about their interest in certain supplements, et cetera. And then we actually had one medical provider, a family practice nurse practitioner from Vermont, who was so excited about what we were building. She was sending me all this other information and content about how to reach out to other doctors and stuff. And then, at the end of the summer, when we were just about ready to start getting our beta off the ground, we were going to choose one provider to work with who was going to recommend it to their patients, and they were going to slowly kind of monitor the experience. This nurse practitioner actually just happened to reach back out, and we happened to connect again. And she's like, "Okay, what are you guys up to? Are you guys done with your product? I really want to use it." And I was like, "Oh, wow. Well, it's great timing because we're looking for our first medical provider." WILL: [laughs] IRFAN: And so that's where we ended up launching beta with, which was awesome. And since then, I've been spending a lot of time thinking about the go-to-market approach beyond just one medical provider. How do we scale to thousands of medical providers? And luckily, selling to doctors is a solved problem, like; the biopharma and medical device industry has been doing this for decades. And so it was really just a part of me brushing up on a lot of the work that I was doing in life science consulting about helping Big Pharma and whatnot go to market and just stealing a lot of notes out of their playbook. So, for example, there are companies that allow you to run ads online that just target physicians. So instead of my dad seeing a Lululemon ad while he's reading The Wall Street Journal, he'll see an ad for Frontrow Health. And so we actually run marketing tests over the summer, towards the end of the summer, with a newer provider landing page that we had built to see what percent were going to click on the ads, what percent were going to come to the website and sign up, and then how much cost would that be per acquisition of a provider. And the results were actually much better than we thought. It was half as expensive as what we originally predicted, which is awesome. WILL: Wow. IRFAN: And that was before Jakub, our new head of design, had even touched the website. We're actually just revamping it right now because he's been going through and revamping other aspects of our product and marketing experience. And now we're at the provider part. So we're actually going to be just about a week or so away from launching the marketing tests and actually getting every day more providers on the platform. The product is now done, so they can start getting their patients on the platform. We just signed our first health brand. So now people are getting real product recommendations and getting ability to earn cashback. And we can be revenue generating, which is also super exciting that we're, like I said, a couple of months ahead of schedule, actually. VICTORIA: That's really exciting, and that certainly sounds like enough on your plate. But is there anything else on the horizon for Frontrow Health that you're excited about? IRFAN: Yes. We are super excited that we're just coming out of stealth mode and launching our full product experience for consumers, medical providers, and DTC health brands. Going forward into 2023, we're really looking to try to find this quote, unquote, "product market fit." Are doctors excited about signing up and getting their patients on the platform? Are those patients excited about the products that we're selling on our marketplace? And are we delivering new lifetime customers for these health brands at a more cost-effective rate than they've ever seen before? And solving that original problem that came to me while I was at Everlywell. And by doing all three of those things, hopefully, we'll begin to increase access to healthcare at home where people who are not suburban high-income folks who can afford to pay out of pocket for preventative healthcare; we can now make that more equitable by bringing down the cost through the cashback, by introducing the element of trust, by engaging with a medical provider, and by opening up people's eyes to thousands of different consumer health and wellness companies that now exist in the world that we want to be able to connect the right products to the right people with. VICTORIA: That's so exciting. I'm really glad we got a chance to talk to you today and hear more about your story. Is there anything else that you want to add before we wrap up? IRFAN: This has been super fun being able to even just reflect and think about our whole story. For anyone else listening who's interested or excited about entrepreneurship, there's a really good book that I read last summer as I started thinking about entrepreneurship for the first time called "The Hard Thing About Hard Things" written by Ben Horowitz, who co-founded the VC fund, Andreessen Horowitz. He was an entrepreneur himself. And it's one of my favorite books because, as the title [laughs] explains, it just talks about the difficulty of the experience and the journey that's still ahead of me. But I think the overall takeaway of the book and my experience over the past year is that it's just the single greatest learning experience of my life. And that's actually really all I'm trying to optimize for personally is I want to keep growing and learning, and learning about the space, learning about myself, learning about how to work on a team, how to lead a team, how to grow a team. And if you're at all interested in any of those things, keep trying to think about all the right problems that are being experienced in the world. And we still live in a world wrought with problems and don't have nearly enough founders trying to go and solve all of them. VICTORIA: That's a really great perspective, I think, to bring to it about your own personal growth. And that's what it's really all about. [laughs] And hopefully, we're able to solve some big challenging problems along the way. IRFAN: Hope so. WILL: You can subscribe to this show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. VICTORIA: If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. WILL: You can find me on Twitter @will23larry. VICTORIA: And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. WILL: Thanks for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Irfan Alam.

Jade Kearney is the Co-Founder and CEO of She Matters, a digital health platform designed to improve postpartum comorbidities for Black women through community, culturally competent healthcare providers, and culturally relevant resources. Victoria and Will talk to Jade about why postpartum depression is so dangerous for women, her experience as a mother and why she founded She Matters, and what culturally competent care looks like for Black women. SHEMATTERS (https://www.shematters.health/) Follow SHEMATTERS on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/shematters.io/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/shematters.io/), or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/she-matters-inc/about/), or YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3_drWpk9DaXakn5d1jHjIg). Follow Jade on LinkedIn (https-//www.linkedin.com/in/jadekearney/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: WILL: This is the Giant Robot Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Jade Kearney, the Co-Founder, and CEO of She Matters, a digital health platform designed to improve postpartum comorbidities for Black women through community, culturally competent healthcare providers, and culturally relevant resources. WILL: Jade, thank you for joining us. JADE: Thank you for having me. WILL: So I want to start off the podcast and really talk about the issues that you're working to solve because, to be honest, before I was a dad, I had no idea about any of the things that you're trying to solve, but now that I am a dad, I am very well aware of it. So, can you explain to our audience exactly what you're working to solve? JADE: No problem. What we're working to solve is we're trying to decrease the incidence of Black maternal morbidity and what that means is how Black women are treated in the delivery room and postpartum. I'm not sure if anybody is aware, so I always try to give the statistics upfront: Black women are four times more likely to die during pregnancy and after pregnancy than White counterparts. And here in the state of New York, we're 12 times more likely to die. So what we're doing as a company is we're looking to decrease postpartum comorbidities through culturally relevant resources, community, and culturally competent healthcare providers that we supply through our She Matters app. WILL: Those stats are so devastating to hear. You hear the stats and postpartum and things like that. Why is postpartum so dangerous? JADE: Postpartum is dangerous because postpartum starts the moment you have a child. And when you first have a child as any type of woman, Black, White, Asian, your focus is on the child, and you're not paying attention to the signs of your body. Also, postpartum is not talked about that much. After you have a baby, the focus is on the baby, and a lot of women don't understand what they're experiencing when they're experiencing it. So there may be some very, very alarming signs that are happening that are going off in your body or mind because we're talking about mental health and physical health that a woman doesn't resonate with because no one's talked to her about it. So there's no information. So a woman is experiencing...has an out-of-body experience having postpartum anxiety and depression and doesn't know what's going on because there's been no information given about it. It can be a silent killer, really, when you think about eclampsia, and you think about HELLP syndrome, which is like high blood pressure during and postpartum. These are the top killers of all women. And if you don't know the signs of that, if you don't know what to look for, you may very well think it's a part of postpartum when you're actually in danger. VICTORIA: And that sounds so important to increase awareness in the education and community around these issues. Can you tell me more about what culturally competent care actually looks like for Black women? JADE: So culturally competent care means that you are receiving care from a health provider that understands the stuff that I'm conversing with you guys about. They understand Black maternal morbidity; they understand it is due to systemic racism. They understand that cultural competence is the first step toward communication and trust. So they're meeting Black women where they are. For instance, culturally, a Black person may say, a Black mother, in particular, may say, "God told me this wasn't normal." Some people may see that as psychosis, so the person may be having terrible mental health issues. In our culture, that's something that we may just say. So to be culturally competent, you have to be aware that, oh, that's a colloquialism used in the Black community, and so I really should be focused on how this mom is feeling instead of maybe she needs to go to the psych ward. There are little differences and nuances like that that cultural competency changes the trust barrier, and it changes the communication barrier for both the healthcare provider and the mother. VICTORIA: Right. That makes sense to me. And for myself being from Maryland, I have friends who have gone to doctors who just wouldn't believe them when they brought up that they were in pain. Or if another doctor referred them to get an MRI, the new doctor wouldn't want to provide that service. And so your app is trying to bridge that gap and that systemic racism that's built into the system as well. JADE: Absolutely. That's a common complaint of Black women or Black people, but really Black women, that when we are in distress, when we are in pain, that people just don't believe us because people aren't comfortable with us being in pain, and that goes back to systemic racism. And if you're not culturally competent, you may be unaware of your cultural biases just because you've never had the conversation. And so, 89% of procedures done to Black women are done without their full consent, so Black women are not comfortable. They didn't want to have the procedure. They were coerced into the procedure because people don't listen. Doctors don't listen to us. WILL: Jade, let's take a second because I love your passion behind it. Where does your passion come from for this situation? Tell us about your experience as a mother and why you founded She Matters. JADE: Well, my passion comes from becoming a mother, becoming a Black mother to a Black child when I had my first daughter. The first doctor I went to treated me like a statistic, and she was a Black doctor. I felt so scared all the time that I knew it wasn't the right practice for me, and I switched practices at 27 weeks. And when I got to my next practice, I was able to talk to my doctor, Dr. Garfinkel, in Morristown, New Jersey, who is a Jewish man, but was culturally competent, knew the statistics, understood the system and promised me that he would do everything in his power to make sure I had a healthy birth. I did have preeclampsia. I did have an emergency birth. But my daughter and I made it out of that situation healthy. The issue was during my postpartum period; I had nowhere to go. I didn't understand that the mental illness that I was facing around postpartum OCD, where you have terrible ruminating thoughts about your child or yourself, so harming your child or harming yourself, I didn't understand that that can happen during postpartum and really felt like I was losing my mind. I felt like I was failing as a mom, and I felt a lot of shame. I went to both my family and friends, and because of the stigma around mental health in the Black community, I didn't find any support there. What I did find was shaming. I found disbelief and really just avoidance of the problem. Like, my mom said to me, "We're Black women. We don't have time for this. You have to go back to work. You need your health insurance." When I reached out to my healthcare provider at the time, I was told, "I'm going to send you Zoloft and check in with you in six weeks." That's not what I needed to hear. Because I'm a Black woman, I wasn't comfortable with taking an antidepressant. I also was uncomfortable not speaking to my healthcare provider. And I knew that there was a disconnect right there. I couldn't go to family and friends. And I couldn't go to the healthcare system because I was being completely neglected by psychiatrists, by the emergency room, by doctors. And I created She Matters because I never wanted any other Black woman to feel the way that I felt during my first 12 months of being a mother. I thought we need culturally competent healthcare providers. We need communication with each other, community so we can validate our experiences when we're having these weird things that happen to your mind or body. And we need culturally relevant resources because when I was on the internet, I couldn't find anything where Black women were talking about our problems because of the stigma. I couldn't find a lot of information around the postpartum state of Black women because we're neglected in healthcare. So that's why I founded She Matters. VICTORIA: And you founded it over four years ago. And at the time, I believe you were in the process of one of your master's degrees. And looking at the degrees you have, it almost seemed like you planned on founding a company like this. [laughter] But yeah, can you tell me more about your education and how that feeds into your ability to perform as a founder? JADE: Sure, I did not plan this. [laughter] I was definitely being over-educated, didn't want to leave school; I love to learn. And so I have a degree in diversity and inclusion management and digital media design from NYU. And at the time, I thought I was going to create continuing education platforms or blended learning programs for K through 12. I didn't know that this would be my trajectory. And so everything I did around diversity and around digital media has helped me launch She Matters. It's really allowed me to cultivate who I am as a CEO and not look at the problem only as a Black mother who experiences these things but also as a business person, also as a tech founder, and be able to zoom out and see what adjustments need to be made that aren't personal to my story. VICTORIA: And that probably is why you've been so successful, and congratulations on your most recent round of funding. What are you most excited about to be working on with your new capacity? JADE: I am most excited about working with the thousands of healthcare providers that we're getting ready to work with. It's so important that cultural competency be something that's not a new wave or something popular, but it becomes ingrained in the healthcare system. I love when hospitals are open to making these changes, and they're aware of the problems within hospitals. I'm also really excited about our new symptom tracker that can be connected to wearables. So preeclampsia, eclampsia, and HELLP syndrome are some of the things that I talked about. And we've created a system tracker on our app that can help mothers get to the hospital faster. I'm really excited about unveiling that on our version two of the app. WILL: What causes these issues in the Black community? Why are they so overlooked? JADE: Why are they so overlooked in the Black community, by Black people, or in general? WILL: Just in general. So you said that you were overlooked and your doctor was a Black lady. But then you had a Jewish doctor that said, "I'm going to take care of you." From your understanding and your view, what do you think caused that? JADE: It's systemic racism. So the status quo...systemic racism doesn't change because you're Black. We're all part of the system. And that's why cultural competency is needed. Everyone needs that regardless of your race because when you're part of the system, sometimes you're unaware of your biases. People are doing what's been done, and what's been done is unfair. There's no health equity. People are comfortable with the level of pain Black women experience. People are comfortable with the stats being where they are. Things are just now starting to change. People are just becoming uncomfortable, and that's going to take some years for everyone to become uncomfortable. But it is because this is the system as it is, and people are comfortable with the current system, Black, White, or other. VICTORIA: Right. And you talked about what new features you're excited about for your platform. And how does the app that you've created start to increase that cultural competency? Like, how does it really work within a healthcare system? JADE: The app is for our community of moms, and our learning management system is where healthcare providers go. So that's where you get the experience of the culturally competent certification. And you get the curriculum, and you get the experts in health equity leading the classes and talking about Black maternal morbidity and making connections between systemic racism and health outcomes. Our LMS system is the most important part of our training. And our app is the most important part to communicate with our moms and offer a listserv of these doctors who are taking our certification, the resources that we talked about, and those symptom trackers that we talked about. Without technology, none of this would be happening. VICTORIA: That's great. So you have really two user groups, right? You have your Black women mothers and then also hospitals that you're designing for. JADE: Yes. VICTORIA: And I wonder if you found any interesting design challenges for either group. JADE: And this is my life. The most challenging thing for the mothers is engagement because you have to understand being a mom is full-time. It's like a full-time and a part-time job together. So how do you create programming at an engagement level that's fair for moms? How do you measure a mom's engagement? It's going to be a little bit different because if you have one child or four children, your time on an app is going to be different, not to mention if you have a full-time job. So it's just about creating engaging programming that mothers will take their downtime to utilize. And I feel like we have a little bit of secret sauce there; it's around our ability to connect to our moms and to bring experts in healthcare to our mothers. When it comes to healthcare professionals, I think healthcare professionals are more than willing to take a course. It is explaining to hospitals that Black women are worth the investment because, remember, they've been comfortable with the situation as is. Having to convince people that the demographic that you've ignored is important is a job. I also feel like once a hospital decides to come on board with us, I have this huge sigh of relief because trying to explain to people why Black women deserve to live through birth and after can be taxing. VICTORIA: I can imagine being a mom yourself and having this startup and having to do that difficult work of explaining to people how systemic racism affects their healthcare and why they should care is exhausting. So how do you recharge and find time for yourself and balance your life if it's possible? [laughs] JADE: I have a great support system; I cannot lie to you, like, between the people who helped me with my children, my team here at She Matters, our board. Like, some people talk about their boards...my board is like family in terms of the support that they give to my co-founder and I. They've been committed to helping us change maternal morbidity in the United States and to have their support and to have the support of everyone in my life is most important. And I often say to founders, "You cannot do this without support. I don't care how much money you raise. You will lose your shit no matter what your venture is." Because being a founder, being a CEO is very lonely. It doesn't look like anything that's been done before, and you don't have punch-in and punch-out hours. So support is the way that I keep my mind healthy. I'm able to have downtime for myself, and the way that I'm able to be the best person I can be so I can be the best mom. MID-ROLL AD: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it's easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn't looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops. WILL: You know, you're from Newark, New Jersey. What is your favorite thing about that area? JADE: I love Newark. In Newark, we say 'nurk.' I know outsiders say 'noo-urk.' But I love being from Newark because I saw kind of the best of both worlds. Newark has such a rich history. And there are so many problems currently around just systemic racism, whether it's education, healthcare, the judicial system, and you kind of see both things play out where you have great private schools, and you have great universities. Shout out to Rutgers; I went to Rutgers, Newark. And then you have all the problems that the country has. So it gave me a different lens. I own where I'm from, but I also saw the greatness of where I'm from. And I believe it's helped propel me to where I am because I have lived both lives firsthand. And I know what it's like to go to a school that's not receiving funding, to go to a hospital that's coined a Black hospital and to be treated unfairly, and then to go right into another town in Essex County and be treated differently because it's quote, unquote, "a White hospital." Newark has given me the duality that I have as a person to experience both lives. WILL: Wow, you speak of systemic racism. And in my opinion, I think there are almost two sides of it. I think you have the side that that's their beliefs and the way that they comprehend it, and that's what they're going to believe. And then you have a different side that's like; I had no idea because I've been in my bubble for so long. And correct me if I'm wrong if I'm missing a category, but in my experience, it's almost the two that I see. And especially with 2020, I think a lot of that slowly started peeling back. And so it seems like you're dealing with that head-on. How have you been received by the doctors and the hospitals in that area? JADE: It just depends on the doctors and the hospitals. Sometimes people say, "This is what we really want, oh my God, because we don't know what to do." And this is such a huge problem speaking to Black maternal morbidity. With the Black Momnibus Act that was passed in November 2021, there's been $3 trillion put into the pipeline to make these changes. So hospitals are paying attention. But paying attention and providing your healthcare professionals with the service are two different things. I've been received in both ways; wow, you guys are the second coming. And yeah, this is great, but we're not really focused on it right now. We want to pretend that we're focused on it, but we're really not. It's difficult. And I do think those two sides of the coin of systemic racism exist where there are people who are proponents of it and who know what they're doing, and there are people who have no idea. Either way, training is necessary so that you can treat people equally. WILL: Yes, I totally agree with that. Totally agree with that. If you had one message you had, you know, however long you want, what would be the one message that you would want the audience to know about She Matters and what you're solving? JADE: She Matters is solving for an American problem. This is an American healthcare problem. And people assume when you say Black maternal morbidity that it is not an American problem. Black people are Americans. And I know that sounds crazy because if you're born here, you're an American. But it's not crazy. People act like this is a separate problem from themselves. No, this is our problem, everyone's problem. When women are dying, that's everyone's problem. When there are health inequities in your hospital, it's everybody's problem. We should all care about Black women dying, period. VICTORIA: Yeah, I think there's a book out this year that calculates the cost of systemic racism, and this area, in particular, the amount of death and the hospital costs related to this is, for no other moral reason, it's very expensive. And addressing it and protecting our community keeps us all healthy, and safe, and good. I love what you're doing with the app. And I think it's so important, and I'm really glad you came on the show to tell us about it. I'm curious, if you could travel back in time to when you first started, what advice would you give yourself? JADE: Prepare for the long haul, prepare for the long journey, prepare for the long road. Pace yourself. This is a marathon, not a sprint. It is going to be harder than you think. I didn't think it was easy at all. But I did think that people would understand the severity of the problem we're solving for, and that's just not the case. [laughs] So the convincing part, like I mentioned earlier, is very taxing. I become exhausted with explaining the value of my life as a Black woman. It's exhausting. WILL: Wow. If you can sum up (This is a two-part question.) your toughest decision or time since you founded She Matters, and let's end it on your best, successful, happy moments since you founded She Matters. JADE: Okay. The toughest was raising our most recent round. There's a lot of systemic racism there as well. Black women get less than half a percentage point of the venture capital given to startups. And knowing that challenge and speaking to investors who claim that they have interest in people of color and women of color, and when you get in front of them, it becomes the same stats that you use for all startup and tech companies when this is different. This is not a chip. This is not something that people are familiar with. So people not understanding that when it comes to something like this, which has not been done before, sometimes you have to use a different metric system. We should present to you in a way that is comfortable in Silicon Valley. So I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything that everybody else does; no, we should. But when we're presenting to you, you have to understand the hurdles and the challenges that it took for us to get in front of you. If Black founders are in front of venture capitalists, we are unicorns. We're the best of the best because for us to get there, we had to go through hell and fire. So that's the one thing. And when it comes to the most positive thing, it would be the amazing feedback we get from mothers and from healthcare professionals. Some people send us donations; some people just volunteer their medical experience, which is expensive. Anytime a healthcare professional says, "I have 10 hours that I can volunteer to a Black mom," that's huge for us. A therapist saying, "I'll offer any She Matters community member 45 minutes free," do you know how much my therapy is? [laughter] I'm like, oh my God, that's so amazing. And those things matter to me. Like, it's not about revenue for me as much as it is about getting the women the help that they need. And so every time what I say lands with a healthcare system or professional, it warms my heart. Every time a mother is helped, it warms my heart. VICTORIA: Well, that's wonderful. It's been amazing to hear more on this issue. And I hope our listeners appreciate getting educated on this topic. Is there anything else you want to promote or take a second to leave our audience walking away with? JADE: Yeah, sure. Just go to shematters.health to learn more about what we're doing. And if you're a Black mother, download the app. If you're a healthcare professional, sign up for our next cohort November 7th. If you just want to learn more, send us an email. Follow us on social media, @shematters.io, on Instagram. We're around, and we love to hear people's feedback. We're here for the volunteering. We're here for it all. We're here if you just want to learn more really. WILL: Jade, thank you so much for, one, being on the podcast, but most importantly, the impact that you are having on our community, the United States, the world because I think you are going to have that impact on the world the longer you're in this, and the more you go. So just thank you. Thank you for everything. JADE: Thank you, guys, for giving us a platform to reach more people, and thank you for caring enough to have me speak for Black mothers and for She Matters. I appreciate it. VICTORIA: Well, thank you so much. I really enjoyed our conversation today. WILL: You can subscribe to this show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. VICTORIA: If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. WILL: You can find me on Twitter @will23larry. VICTORIA: And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. WILL: Thanks for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guest: Jade Kearney.

Will Larry, Software Developer at thoughtbot, joins Giant Robots as host!

You are tuned in to Copyright Chat. Copyright Chat is a podcast dedicated to discussing important copyright matters. Host Sara Benson, the copyright librarian from the University of Illinois, converses with experts from across the globe to engage the public with rights issues relevant to their daily lives. Sara: Welcome to a fun and exciting and unique episode of Copyright Chat. Today, I am here at the Copyright Conference at Miami University, live, creating an episode of Copyright Chat along with Will Cross. We've been talking about the Scholarly Communication Notebook and my podcast's involvement in it, in teaching and learning. And our audience has live, live polled, decided that what we're going to talk about today is potential liability under the CASE Act and sovereign immunity, which is a very timely topic. So I'm very excited to talk about this. There's a lot going on at the Copyright Office with the CASE Act and their proposed rules. So I would love to see if a member of our audience has a question they'd like to start us off with, about either sovereign immunity or the CASE Act. Yeah, someone just posted that the October 4th deadline is weighing heavily on them. It's September 29th and we have until October 4th to respond to the call for comment. Will, have you made any comment to the Copyright Office in response to that call? Will: That's a great question, Sara, and I wonder if it would be useful to give a very quick, like 30-second overview of the topic just so people know what they're thinking about. I see several hands raised as well. So I'll, I'll say that, that very quickly, yes, I've been involved with several, several groups including the EUIPO that I know you are part of as well, and Sara, you released a really nice ALA-sponsored resource in this area. So yeah, we've been thinking about this issue a lot. We did a webinar last week talking to a bunch of different librarians as well. So I see several hands raised. Sara: Yeah, I think Alvin, would you like to ask a question? Alvin: I work at a land-grant, and we should, should, enjoy sovereign immunity. Does that immunity extend to librarians and the scope of their job? Sara: That's a really good question. And, so, sovereign immunity generally would protect individuals who work there in the scope of their employment, at least protecting them from large damages. So I'll use an example. I think most of us on this call are aware of the Georgia State University case, right, where Georgia State was sued for their E-reserves policy, where they said that a flat percentage could be copied from a textbook for E-reserves use. And of course, we know that there's no flat percentage that equals a fair use. And the court actually said that at one point in the case, which was helpful to us copyright librarians. So, that doesn't mean that they're immune from suit. It does mean that they would be immune from the large damages, because that's what sovereign immunity protects, right, from copyright damages. So what they could obtain, in that instance, is an injunction, telling folks to stop doing whatever they're doing that is potentially violating the law. And that's what the plaintiffs, Oxford University Press was one of them in that case, sought. The word of caution about that case is, it lasted a really long time. So even though in the end there were no damages at stake, the case kind of went on and on, and of course, during that time, you incur attorney's fees and other things. So, and I would add as an aside, and someone posted in the chat also, under the CASE Act, state and federal governments are also immune from liability under the CASE Act, presumably following sovereign immunity. However, and one of the things that is a little unclear is, does that extend to employees? And it really should. But if you read the last US Copyright Office proposed rule, they made some really weird claims about agency law, which seemed to make a distinction and say, well, they didn't say employees when they talked about opting out, so maybe they aren't talking about employees when they're talking about state and federal governments? I don't know. I personally think that probably employees shouldn't be held liable under CASE Act either under principles of sovereign immunity, but as we all know, it doesn't prevent you, even in federal court from being sued. It prevents you from incurring damages. It would then say, okay, well, they have less incentive to sue you because they're not going to get those big statutory damages, but they could still sue you and go for an injunction. Will, that was a long answer. I'm going to let you clarify or add your two cents or correct me if I said anything wrong, cause Lord knows I do sometimes. Will: Well, there's two of us, so hopefully between the two of us we'll be okay. No, I think you said it really well. It's important at the outset to say that these are two, sort of parallel aspects of the law, that sovereign immunity specifically says if you are a public institution, a state institution, those damages are not available. But exactly as you say in Georgia State, the, the plaintiffs were not really interested in damages. They were interested in coercing people into accepting a blanket license, right? That was the endgame for them. So that's the first piece. The CASE Act is specifically the Small Claims Tribunal that you described, that is there, in theory because copyright lawsuits are so expensive and complicated, right? The number that's being thrown around a lot, is what, $276,000 or so, is what it costs to, just to basically begin a suit in federal court. So, so, that speaks to the, both the cost of suing somebody and potentially the cost of being sued, even if there are no damages, as those attorney's fees can certainly add up from there. The question then about whether individuals can either opt out or just say, “I'm an employee acting within the scope of my duty, I shouldn't even need to opt out. I'm, I am covered in this case under basic, sort of fundamental principles of agency law.” That, I think, is the heart of this, this comment that's coming up due October 4th, is how we think about library employees in that space. And I, and I think several people have said this and it's absolutely right. Libraries can't do anything without librarians, right? The, the building doesn't get up and walk around and scan books or whatever, right? It's the people doing the work. So, any sort of opt out or exception that said, “The library is immune from suit, but all the individual people can be sued.” is sort of illusory. It doesn't do anything useful, right? So, from my perspective, it's hard to make a good faith argument that librarians shouldn't be considered, sort of, protected by both sovereign immunity and the broad sort of limitations that the CASE Act provides as well, when they're acting within the scope of their employment. And we can have conversations about scope, scope of employment, and that sort of thing as well. But, but to me, that's the, that's the baseline piece of it. The other thing I wanted to say at this stage is it's important, I think, to articulate the sort of privileged nature of libraries and librarianship generally, that this is a core principle in copyright law, that what libraries do is society serving. It meets the mission of the progress clause. So, libraries have this whole, you know, set of copyright exceptions in Section 108. If you've ever put that weird notice on your photocopiers or scanners, that's what you were doing in that context. So, so not only is it a weird reading of agency law to say, “We want to protect the institution, but not any of the people doing the institution's work.” It also sort of flies in the face of the core policy judgment that Congress and the courts have made in terms of saying, “Libraries are really important. The work they do promotes the progress of science and the useful arts. We need to make sure they have the space to do that good work.” So that's, that's my soapbox that I was on for a long time. Sara: I get that. I think, whenever you engage in advocacy with a public body, right, you're not usually, your name is attached to it. And if you're stating what you do for a living and you know, you're, you're potentially letting them know what you do and why you do it. At my library, and this may not be true of others, my name is already out there and what I do is already out there, right? I'm listed very publicly. My resources, my library guides have my name on them, right? So, to me, it didn't raise any specter of liability that I wasn't already kind of dealing with. I think the title copyright librarian kind of indicates, oh yeah, I do have to make fair use assessments and people do come to me and ask questions about copyright information. Of course, I don't make other people's fair use assessments, but I guide them and empower them into making their own. I would say the person who posted here said that they are engaged in interlibrary loan. Again, I, I know what interlibrary loan is, right? That means that you are scanning copyright protected works. That's the nature of the job. And I think most people know that as well. And so to me, hopefully that doesn't really raise any additional liability on your part when you submit something. But of course, I can't promise that there aren't copyright trolls out there, right? Unfortunately, they already exist. I think the benefit in us submitting these comments is that we're trying to let the Copyright Office know that this will impact our daily work. And the goal here, at least for me, in calling for large collective action, is that I want the Copyright Office to understand the impact, that this proposed ruling would have, right? The proposed rule that they put forth about the opt-out provisions said, you know, yes, a library or an archive can opt out, one time, of the CASE Act or Small Claims Act proceedings, and then they never have to worry about it again, right? If someone tries to sue them, they, they opt out automatically. And the benefit of that is that if you forget to opt out, you can get a default judgment against you, right? And then all of a sudden you have damages. And so that's why that was, as Will said, libraries are protected and archives are protected if they do this one time, right? Because our society and our Congress understands that what we do is important. That what we do shouldn't be interrupted constantly by little lawsuits, right? That the library can't function in that way. But what they don't understand, what the Copyright Office doesn't understand, I think, and what Will said quite brilliantly, right, was the library isn't making the scanning. The library, you know, the library is just a building. It doesn't do anything. The library only does things through its employees, and if the employees are constantly being sued, guess what, the library might as well shut down. And so, if Congress really wants to protect libraries from being sued constantly and having to remember to opt out constantly, they should also protect employees from the same. And so, this is what, um, this is why I encourage advocacy. And my real sincere hope is that we will move the needle on this. This was a proposed rule by the Copyright Office. It's not final. And I'm really hopeful that through collective action we're able to convince the Copyright Office that they got it wrong. And if we do that, then our goal has been met, right? Having your name on that document is not going to subject you to any potential liability because you, when your library opts out, it will also cover you. And that's the goal. Can I promised that goal will be met? No. Unfortunately, advocacy is always like that, right? You, you do your best and you hope that it makes that impact. But I do think it's worth doing. I think advocacy is worth doing, even if it does mean that we have to put our name on a public document. Will: Totally agree. And I see we've got an anonymous question I want to address in just a second, but before that, I just want to jump on what you're saying and plus one it as well. There are a surprising number of cases where some larger sort of legal policy fight is happening and librarians can sort of get swept up in it in different ways. I think about the Kirtsaeng case a few years back, where there was this large and sort of technical conversation, about, you know, whether works were lawfully made under this title and what that meant geographically. I don't think most people were thinking about libraries when that litigation was happening. But several library organizations wrote amicus briefs to the Supreme Court and said, “Don't forget about us while you're weighing all these other policy questions, please don't let us get sort of squished underfoot for these big other conversations.” And not only did we get the outcome we wanted, we got some language in the opinion that basically said that “The work of libraries is important, a different ruling in this case would have an adverse effect on libraries and librarianship.” So that was part of our calculus. I think we have some nice case studies where we said, properly, “You might not be thinking about us, but please do in this moment to make a decision that recognizes that.” Sara: Great, I do see that question about whether you can make an anonymous comment. Do we know the answer to that, Will? Will: I think it was answered in the chat, which is that you can, but it's still recorded in certain ways. There was also a person wrote in and asked to, to ask a question here anonymously. So if it's okay, I'll read that one out. And then I see Jonah has his hand up as well. So the question is sort of a strategic one and it asks, is there a risk in, risk involved in stressing how much effect this might have on our daily operations, when we know that some folks in the Copyright Office seem to already think libraries are sketchy, and library users especially, are sort of sketchy edge users, like it does in a sense that confirm the, I think, wildly inaccurate, but existing bias, that like where “We were already sort of looking at you with side-eye and now you're coming back and asking for more protection. What's up with that?” And I think there's something to say around sovereign immunity with that. But Sara, I'm interested how you would respond to that question. Sara: So I think what you're saying is when you write this letter saying how it might impact your daily work, are you going to get kind of a, more scrutiny, I guess, into what you're doing. My answer would be no, but I also didn't, when I wrote in, I didn't write every single thing that I do on a daily basis, in very great detail, right? Because I first of all, like I just, I need to protect patron privacy. So like, that is foremost right? In everything we do, we all know this, right? So I would never say I scanned this thing for this patron or you know, a specific thing. But what I did say is that I routinely make fair use determinations for my own teaching and for my own library guides and my own educational outreach that I do on campus. And it would be hindered if I would have to respond to these lawsuits for everything that I did, right? It would just it, and it might also put me in a position where the risk gets higher and higher, right? I mean, fair use is a risk assessment every time. And so I don't think anyone would look askew at that, only because what I say that I'm doing is really typical. I mean, I'm not I'm not doing anything atypical. And I don't know what you could say that they would feel like is pushing it too far. I mean, I see, I see your point. Maybe if you get into, we're doing controlled digital lending and here's how many books we're scanning and all this, right? Maybe they would think that was pushing it far, but I even think there, many libraries are publicly stating that they're doing controlled digital lending. So that's not even anything super controversial. So I guess, I, I don't think so, but I wonder what you think, Will. Will: Yes, I mean, I think that's right, and along with what you said about fair use being a risk assessment, fair use is a muscle as well, right? And so I think, I personally think there's real value in getting on the record some of these concerns even if we don't win the day. So that as the conversations about the constitutionality of this stuff and other things are there, that that's out there. The piece that I do understand is that they're historically, the Copyright Office has not always been a library-first policy body, right, for better or for worse. So I, I, I could imagine somebody saying if I was talking to a judge or a legislature, they often love libraries, but this particular context feels different. The other piece I wanted to bring in is, we included sovereign immunity in this conversation because that's been kind of a third rail in this space and it's not the same thing, but I think in terms of the way policy folks are thinking about it, it overlaps. So just to quickly share that context, my state, North Carolina, relied on sovereign immunity for some pretty aggressive use of photographs of Blackbeard's ship, without, sort of going through the steps that they maybe should have done. That's for a court, and not for me, to decide. And last term, the Supreme Court upheld sovereign immunity. They said that sovereign immunity should exist. Even in this context where this doesn't seem like the best case study. Like, if I wanted to defend sovereign immunity, those set of behaviors or not, the model set of behaviors I would have brought forward. Sara: And just sovereign immunity means that a state or federal government cannot be sued in copyright for damages, for money. Not that they can't be sued, right? Because we all know that they could for Georgia State purposes, right, for maybe an injunction or, injunction means stop doing that, right? Whatever you're doing, stop it. But that they can't get those statutory damages. Sorry. I'm just interrupting you, go on. Will: No. Thank you. Sara: I like and I also love the fact that it was a pirate case. Will: Yes. Sara: Yeah, there's nothing better than a case about copyright that involves a pirate, just saying. Will: At last we find when piracy is the right statement, finally, when using the term so much. Anyway, one of the results of that is the court's opinion basically said, “Under current law, sovereign immunity stands. But if you have concerns, the legislature can do something about it.” So this large study was launched to try and determine whether or not we should revisit sovereign immunity. It, we could spend some time talking about that report. I think it, it, the people watching it came in with a set of expectations that weren't necessarily met by the data they found on the ground. But, at least to me, that creates a sense that people are sniffing around the broader concept of sovereign immunity and saying, “This, this blanket shield from liability makes me suspicious and skeptical.” And these larger questions about the policy values of that liability are being asked. I think there's a really overwhelmingly strong way to articulate why it's important to have that immunization and that protection both for sort of nerdy, you know, principles of federalism reasons, but also for actual on the ground work. But if there's already an environment where people are launching studies trying to undo or remove sovereign immunity, having the conversation about how librarians are treated under the CASE Act may touch that third rail in some places. So I, the thing that really resonated to me in that question was that, that sense of like, “These are stormy times, I'm going to be careful where I stick my umbrella.” Or something. Sara: Well definitely, and folks have been, folks being legislators, had been kind of attacking sovereign immunity. And the Copyright Office has done their own inquiry into it. And for now, at least, according to the Supreme Court and the Copyright Office, there is no viable evidence of you know, enough harm to individuals through sovereign immunity that we should breach sovereign immunity or get rid of it. However, yes, that's an ongoing thing and it kind of continues to poke, rear its head, right, because the Copyright Office will tell them, “Well, we don't have enough evidence right now, but come back to us in five years with another report,” right? I mean, that's kind of what happens. It's like “Gather some more evidence.” And they had a horror story, a parade of horribles of, you know, that poor individuals, and some of them I really did feel for, I have to tell you, I was there during the hearings and they were saying like, “The university stole this and made all this money. And then they told me to go away because the sovereign immunity,” and that does happen. I'm not going to lie it does, but I mean, that's not what, that's not typical. I mean, at my university, my general counsel joined me for the sovereign immunity hearings, and, you know, we consider ourselves good faith actors. Like, if we find out that a faculty member has done something illegal or copied something, put on their website, we immediately go take it down. We say, “Okay, we need to do something about this right away.” We don't just say “Too bad, we're not going to pay any damages,” right? So it's, it's just, it does happen. It's unfortunate. But I think that it's pretty rare. And I think that was what the Copyright Office concluded, that the evidence really just didn't show that it's widespread enough to create that kind of irreparable harm that we would need to pierce sovereign immunity. I see Jonah's had his hand up for a while, so Jonah - Jonah: So I've seen several commentators and Will just mentioned a moment ago that there was some question about the constitutionality of the CASE Act. I was wondering if both of you could expand a little bit about why people feel that the CASE Act might be unconstitutional. And also, I assume that unconstitutionality applies to the entire framework of the CASE Act and not just vis-à-vis, like library employees. Sara: That's right. And great question, and I'm not the most familiar with these arguments, so I'll let Will jump in, but my understanding is that it has to do with the tribunal, and that it's not an official court. And I think that's the concern, that you've got, not, not a real, it's not a real court, right? It's, it's appointed by, these are judges appointed by the Copyright Office to handle these claims. Over to Will. Will: That's exactly right. The Seventh Amendment talks about the right to trial by jury. And obviously you can opt out of your trial by jury in some cases. But the CASE Act, by creating this weird tribunal, that's not necessarily even in the article 3 constitutional space, that's where judges tend to live, generally, there's this question about whether people's rights are being impacted in some way. Because it's this sort of weird, made-up, quasi court where you don't have all of your rights and protections, but it does still seem to be bind right? You can't lose under a case tribunal and then just kick back to the federal court if you don't like the results. So are we locking people and especially through this, right, the, the, if you get an email or if you don't get an email because it went to your spam, telling you that you have been accused and you don't respond, you're stuck with whatever judgment they have. So if, you can, without getting any opportunity to trial by jury, or even in some cases, any opportunity to meaningfully understand that anything has been raised, and you're bound by that, there are, I think, serious constitutional problems there as well. People have also, I think, rightly asked some questions about whether this is described as a small claims process. Well, where I sit, $30,000 is not small claims, right? That's, that would be a real life-changer for me in some ways. So, from the perspective of a large international rights holder, $30,000 might be the thing you find in your couch cushion or whatever. But I think that the claim that “This is just for the little stuff, you know, up to $30,000,” feels a little maybe disingenuous or just out of tune with the way most people's lives and finances work. Sara: Right. And one thing that I struggle with is how this court would be compared with administrative judges, for instance. Because I think their argument on the other side would be like “This is just like an administrative court where we don't have all the same rules as, you know, regular court and you don't necessarily have a trial by jury, but we have delegated our rights to this administrative court judge.” You think that's going to fly here, Will? Will: I have stopped trying to predict the Supreme Court over the past year or two as it has continued to surprise me. If we could go this podcast without using the word Chevron at any point, that would make me super happy. I do not know, To me both the equities in the constitutional arguments seem pretty compelling in terms of questioning it, but it would, because that's where I sit and that's the world I live in and those are the issues I think about. So I, I would like to imagine that the Supreme Court would take a close look at this, but I would like to imagine a lot of things. Sara: Yeah. No, and I do think, that that's, I think that's going to be their response. And again, I don't, also don't know how that would turn out. I do also know, I think the Electronic Frontier Foundation is looking into this and very serious about suing, but they have to wait till they have a real case. So I think they have to wait until someone gets sued, and then they'll have standing to bring a lawsuit. Until then you don't have, so standing is, is one of the requirements we have to file a lawsuit. You can't say well, “Prospectively, I'm just mad about this.” You have to have some real damages happening to a real person, a real plaintiff. So I think that they're gathering up what they can in the meantime and all their arguments, and they're kind of waiting for the first plaintiff to come along who says, “Yeah, take my case and let's fight it constitutionally.” That's my understanding, and I'm, I'll definitely be on the sidelines cheering them on, or happy to help them if I can in any way. Will: Yeah, I feel the same way and I imagine there will be a certain amount of plaintiff shopping. Who is the most, you know, who, who is the best example of why this is problematic set of practices. Sara: Great point. Will: Something to watch. Sara: We have a question in the chat that other people are, are kind of saying “Me too!” So I'm going to read it out loud here. It says “I'm organizing an email to our library staff to alert them about the CASE Act so they can submit their own statements, and I'm pushing for an institutional statement. I'm wondering if I should reach out to faculty at my institution. Would this potentially affect faculty as well. Those working on OERs are using course reserves, for example. Or is this more librarian oriented?” So the opt out provision is for libraries and archives specifically. And so, generally, I would say, “Will the CASE Act impact faculty?” Probably so, right, and that also depends on whether you're a public institution or private institution because we again, don't know how the courts are going to look at sovereign immunity. And they've, they've allowed and said, state and federal governments can't be sued under the CASE Act, but we don't really know how that's going to play out in terms of individual employees. So there's that. But in terms of this opt out, if you're trying to have people respond about the opt out specifically, that is about library employees and archival employees. Will: Well said, I'll ask the follow-up question to you and if other folks want to jump in as well, what, if anything, are you going to do to prepare your non-library employees there? Are there a series of workshops coming out to say, “This is a wacky thing. It might never affect you, but if you're interested, here it comes.” Or how are we as a community thinking about educating beyond the libraries in this matter? Sara: That's a really good question. And, and for me, I feel like it's a little early, only because these proposed rules are still coming out. Like there's another proposed rule that came out just today. And I got it in my e-mail and said, “Okay, too long, didn't read yet, but will, right?” So I think it's such a moving target that I'm not prepared yet to reach out to faculty generally, but I do think it will be important once we kind of know where the playing field is and what's going on to have some, some strategic conversations. Like first, I'm going to have strategic conversations with library administration. Like, even if we are state and federal, a state or federal library, which we are at University of Illinois, if the opt-out provisions are extended to employees, I'm, I'm going to push that we just file the opt-out regardless, because it would cover our employees. That would be my ask to my administration, if we get what we're asking for in this push right now. Secondly, I would have to say, yeah, to faculty and say, “Let's have this conversation. What is this thing? What is this small claims court? What are the potential outcomes and how does this impact you?” And then again, big question mark, “We are at a state government institution, how does that impact employees?” And I would also really encourage them to understand that they can always opt out no matter what. So even if you can't opt out preemptively and do it once and it's going to apply to everything, which is, of course a good scenario, you can opt out for every single suit. And then that would say to the person, “Hey, sue me in federal court.” Now, we know how sovereign immunity works in federal court, right, at least currently. And so that would give us some measure of protection there if we're not sure about the CASE Act outcome. And so, you know, without giving legal advice, which I'm not allowed to do in my role as copyright librarian, I would try to let them know, like here are the options, right? The option is you go to this court and try to argue that because you're a state or federal employee, you know, they can't sue you, but, you know, I don't know how that's going to turn out. Or you can opt out and say, “Hey, you would have to come and sue me in federal court.” And we know that's pretty cost-prohibitive for them. And we also know that they can't get damages against you there. So I would let them know these are their options and of course, everyone has to make their own decision because I might have a faculty member who knows a lot about this and is like, “I'm really angry, really angry that they're suing me, they shouldn't be. So I'm going to fight this.” I mean, hey, more power to them, but like, I'm not going to tell them to do that necessarily. I'm going to give them options. Will: Thank you. Yeah, a couple of people, Molly Keener, and others have added in chat, and it sounds like they're doing basically the same thing. “We're keeping high level administration aware, we're talking to counsel's offices. But it's a little early.” I also wanted to, I think Nancy in the chat mentioned that if you're especially at a larger institution, the question I get sometimes is like “I work in the library, so I'm going to write on behalf of the library where, I work at NC State, so I'm going to write.” And at most institutions, especially as Nancy says, large institutions, there are pretty clear rules around who can and cannot speak and write on behalf of the institution. So if I submitted comments on behalf of NC State, our legislative advocacy people would murder me and you would never find my body, right? So, so be aware that there are a small set of people who can speak on behalf of the institution, and that there are probably people on your campus who have big feelings about who is doing that work. Sara: That's a really good point. And on the flip side of that, I've been really fortunate to work with those government outreach folks at Illinois to get their kind of permission, if you will, to speak on behalf of the library and the sovereign immunity instance, for instance. I'm, I coauthored a letter on behalf of our institution with our counsel's office. So if you go through the right channels, you can get those permissions, but you have to be aware that you need that. You can't just go ahead and do it. And also usually you need the Dean of the library to say it's okay, the counsel's office to say it's okay, the government relations folks to say it's okay, and just to go through a variety of, of processes. When things come up really quickly like this, this current call for responses, I just signed it on behalf of myself individually because I sometimes I don't have time to run through the chain of command, right? Like to know like, okay, I need to go to this person and this person then this. Like, just because you have permission to do it once doesn't mean it's kosher to do it again and again and again. So I had permission, like I said, on sovereign immunity to really speak up on behalf of the university. But I don't have that permission like as a blanket statement. It's a really good point. Any other questions? Take it away. Will: So Susan Kendall asks whether we can share some communication that you would have the library administration, that those of us who are not lawyers, can use with your administration. I don't have anything in my back pocket, but it seems like a great service. Some group, whether it's EUIPO or ALA, or whomever, could do is to say, “Here's some model language to let people know what's happening with CASE, here's some model language that's targeted towards faculty” and you know that there is a broad need for that. So that might be something that maybe somebody has already done. I'd love to learn about it. And if not, it would be great if somebody could do it. Sara: Will, I love that idea. And I think in terms of when we move forward, I think that we are, that would be a great service, right? To have some standard like “Here's language to communicate about CASE with your employees. Here's some if you're a public employee. Here's some if you're a private employee, here's some for libraries, here's…” something like that would be such a great thing. And I am a member of the ALA Policy Corps group and I think that would be an awesome project for us. And again, I would say it's a little early for that in terms of how we can, we can't predict the future about CASE. So we gotta wait a little bit and then I'm really, fingers crossed, that the lawsuit about constitutionality actually goes forward and we can get rid of all of these concerns, but it's just a moving target. And unfortunately, that's, that happens a lot with copyright, right? It's, it's, it's a moving target a lot of the time. So I do, I think we should have some sort of repository for that kind of information. And I, I, I think it's a great idea. There's a question, did the Library Copyright Institute create a sample of language that could be used? I don't think so, but I do know, you know, if you look at the comments that have been posted about the CASE Act, there's a lot of good information you can gather. It's all public. Will, do you know of anything that they created the Library Copyright Institute? Will: We did a webinar on this last week and we borrowed your language. We said “This is what ALA has provided. This is a nice way to, here's some specific verbiage you can borrow, but also here's a nice way to frame, sort of introduce the idea, provide your context, give specific examples.” So that's the thing that was circulating in those slides that should be available, the recording should be available at this point, but that's not LCI's credit, that's ALA's credit. We were just sharing their good work. Sara: You know, everyone has their own unique perspective and we all have different ways of looking at things, right? And so it's really good to get, just a variety of perspectives, about all the things that are happening in copyright world. Kenny is obviously a wonderful person to talk to always because he's just a really nice person. And I have a Copyright Chat episode talking with Kenny. So I recommend you listen to it if you're interested. He of course authored the famous Copyright Checklist, that most people use for fair use. I recommend it to folks all the time. And in our, in that particular episode, we were talking about the copyright guidelines in Circular 21 and how they're really outdated. Other questions? Audience Member: I do. So what is next? How should we proceed in the coming months, while we kind of wait to see what comes down? And once those things come down, the final rulemaking, what the court looks like, what are ways we can work together to move forward? Sara: That's a great question. I mean, I think one thing that I would recommend to everyone here, is to sign up for the US Copyright Office Notices. This is how I learn about what's going on with the CASE Act and the new rulings and things, right? Instead of hearing it from someone else, you can hear it directly from the Copyright Office. So I highly recommend that, and read, read the proposed rulings as they come out. And if you feel that there's something that you or your library could respond to, pass it up to your dean, pass it up to general counsel and keep them apprised of what's going on because things are definitely still moving along and not solidified yet. So keep on being engaged in that process because I think it's really important that we are aware of how it's, how it's moving. And then once, once we have some final idea of what's going on, hopefully the ALA Policy Corps or someone else can put out some really helpful, useful information. I'm thinking like the SPARC information that they have about the state by state laws on OER, right? They're just so good. I love their website and their tools. If we can come up with something like that, that's just really short, but really comprehensive, I think that we could be doing a really great service. So maybe come up with your own stuff and we can kind of put our heads together and come up with that documentation because I think we're going to need a lot of outreach to our faculty and to fellow librarians about how this might impact our work. Will: Yeah, that's, that's a great point. And the question that you mentioned a moment ago is, is if this constitutionally goes away next term, have we spent all this time getting people invested and raised all this awareness, and then suddenly it's like “What happened to that CASE thing you said was going to ruin the world?” “Well, it just went away.” So as, as we were talking about engagement with faculty, that's one of the issues that I'm really thinking about is, one, getting faculty to show up for a website on copyright Small Claims Tribunal can be challenging. So I'm, I'm wondering if other people are having that, like, is this something faculty and others aren't going to care about until they're being sued and it's too late. Like, is there a way to say “This might be nothing. It might be really important, but you need to know about it now. Because once you get a notification, it's probably too late for us to do anything about it.” Sara: Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's too late for us to do anything once they get a notification as long as they didn't sit on it. Because I, I just read, the one thing that I did read is that you have 60 days to respond to the notice under the proposed rules. Again, nothing final, which is quite a long time, if it got to the right place. Like Will was saying, if it got in your junk email or went to the wrong location, like that's just a problem. But if, if a faculty member does come to me and they have the notice in hand, I think that's a really good time to have that kind of “Here are your options” conversation, right? I mean, you could do nothing and then you could get a default judgement. That's not a good idea, right? Default judgment means “You didn't even bother to show up, pay these damages, because this is what we've decided.” So that's bad, and right, your options are, you know, opt out and decide to say, “Hey, you know, I'm not, I'm not engaging in this process. If you want to sue me, take me to federal court” or respond, right? And then you can respond with, “Hey, this was a fair use,” or “Hey, this is, I'm a government employee” or whatever your defense is, but of course you don't have any guarantees that how that's going to turn out because these are the judges, judges are not real, they're not federal judges, they're not necessarily trained. And even federal judges on copyright sometimes get pretty confused. They get a little turned around. So I've had experiences as a practicing lawyer that you wouldn't believe or I have a motion that I think is a slam dunk and I get denied. And then I have another motion that I think there's no way in heck, this is going to go through and the judge lets it through. So judges sometimes do wonky things. So it's important for people to know that too. Even if they're like, “I know I have a fair use. I know that this is permissible, that's so obvious.” That's why, yeah, judges sometimes make mistakes and I think these judges could too, right? Will: You would hope. And I'm sure the argument is, these judges are going to have that specialist training, so they'll be especially well-prepared. So then the question is, who's going to give them that training? Is CCC's version of a copyright webinar, is it ALA's, et cetera. So that specialization you're right, is a problem too. Sometimes comedic levels, at the federal level, whether the specialization that these judges have means they are more sophisticated or just more invested in one view of the doctrine is a different thing. Carla, please go ahead. I'm sorry. Carla: No, this conversation brings something to mind for me in that happened back when I was in college, which was during the time of Napster in the late 1990s. And I met one of my friends for lunch and he was looking very depressed. He had gotten notice from a music company and they said “We saw you've been sharing our music illegally online, that you can either pay $3,000” in the late 1990s to a college student, which was terrifying, “Or we will sue you.” And you know, something I was just thinking is, could we see with the CASE Act, copyright trolls saying, “Hey, we're going to see you in small claims court. But if you don't opt to do that, we're going to take you to federal court, or you can just make this all go away by paying us X amount of dollars and we'll leave you alone.” And the chilling effect that might have, do you think that's a possibility? Sara: I definitely think that's a possibility and I think that, that's part of the art, the goal of outreach, right? Is to educate people that they can opt out and that they don't have to pay that money, right? So yeah, it's, it's, it's definitely a possibility and, and if folks are just unaware of what this is, right, they think, “Oh, I'm going to go to court, I better pay this” and they don't even know. I know that the notice is supposed to tell you about the opt-out provision and all of those things. But, you know, some people just get really scared. You get a letter in the mail saying you have to pay this money. And you think, “Oh no, I have to do this,” right? You just want it to go away. And so I think that is a real possibility. Will: Yeah, I've, I've dropped the phrase, but somebody basically described the CASE act as a copyright troll factory. I think there's, there's something to that. Nancy, I saw your hand raised. If you'd like to ask a question or jump in, please do. Nancy: Yeah, I, I realized that what I was thinking about is, is rather tangential. But with respect to trolling, those of you who work in academic libraries may have seen some of this lately. I've seen an increase in people who put some kind of vaguely copyrightable measurement tool online. And then other people use it without permission, which is only questionably a copyright violation anyway, forms are not usually very copyrightable. But the people who made the form, some people really seem to have gone full trolling model on this. Their form is out there primarily to get people to use it. And then once people have used it, if they publish on the research they did with the tool, they are now threatening the authors with lawsuits. I don't know if they're getting payments, but they are getting retractions. Which is, I'm concerned about, just because that's not a correct legal response to this kind of, if it is a copyright violation, retractions are not the right answer. But, but I think that the over, as I said, this is tangential, that's why I put my hand down. But it is an illustration that the trolling model already exists, and has both some monetary drivers and some other weird drivers that I don't understand. Sara: Yes, it definitely does exist. And as Jonah was pointing out, there is someone who is licensing under Creative Commons and then using that to sue people, which is even worse in my opinion, it's like you're using Creative Commons to trap people into violating the whatever you put on there and then you're suing them. It's just mind-blowing. But yes, I think, I think unfortunately, some people are trying to trap people into using their thing and then suing them. But I would agree that a retraction is maybe not the way to go. And also someone, I wish someone, would just fight that, right? And get a court to say, “Hey, by the way, this isn't even copyrightable.” But the problem is, and we all know this, going to court is not free, right? You can't go, most people can't just go to court and say, “Okay, I'm going to be pro se.” You have the court filing fees, you have to show up and you have all these deadlines. It's a very complicated process, so it's not as easy as all that, although I wish someone would fund it, maybe EFF, and like, find out if there is someone they could defend and really push the issue. Because if this is happening again and again and again, it needs to be dealt with, in my opinion. Will: And good discussion in the chat on the, sort of the rise of copyleft trolls. There's an article in there documenting the practice, and then Creative Commons has been working recently on updating their license enforcement language to say, “It's your right, but what we hope the community will do is follow this set of practices.” Sara: Yeah, Nancy, Nancy is like “Exactly what academic author is going to say, “I'm going to defend this and see you in court, sue me” and then like get their own lawyer.” I mean, it's just so expensive, so we really would need an organization to take that on. Agreed. But it would be great. Other questions. This has been such a fun conversation. I just have to say this was a really fun thing to do. And I'm so happy that you all were so engaged. I just, the time has been flying by and I've been really enjoying it and it was fun for me to be on the other side, right? Not to be the one asking all the questions, but to get to answer some of them. So I really enjoyed engaging with you all. I hope this will inspire some of you to listen to other episodes of Copyright Chat and to give me your feedback about those and to get engaged with them. And maybe use the Scholarly Communication Network output that I come up with about teaching with Copyright Chat, or come up with your own ways to teach with Copyright Chat. I've actually used, that, that method with Gordon Spiegel before. And I did it live in a class. I played the episode and then I would stop it. And as I asked him a question, I would say to the class like, “What's your answer?” right? And have them kind of figure out if they knew the answer to a common copyright myth. And it was a really fun way of holding a live class. So you can even use the, the podcast live during class. There are just so many different ways to use it for teaching. So I really hope that some of you are inspired to do that. Will: Yeah, thank you for saying that. That brings us back to the sort of the SCN conversation at the top that this can be a “Your final assignment is create a podcast.” instead of writing a research paper that gets thrown away, it's there, or, “Take two podcasts and remix them in different ways.” All the pedagogical opportunities here, I think are really, really exciting and important. Sara: Or come up with a new module, right? “Find one of Sara's Copyright Chat podcasts that she didn't turn into a teaching module and come up with your own teaching module” and then add it in to the OER right there. Just so many, possibilities are endless, but I do love the idea of creating your own copyright podcast, which is kind of fun. Because I just think I've had assignments like that where I've gotten to create something myself and I always find them really, really engaging. And active learning is just, for me, a lot more rewarding. Any, any other final comments from the crowd or things you would love to hear a Copyright Chat podcast about? Because I'm always looking for ideas. If you have other topics that you just think, “Hey, you really should do a topic about this.” Oh, a music one, ooh, that's a really good idea. I should definitely do a music one. “Do you use videos from Copy Talk as part of educational material?” So I don't have videos on the Copyright Chat because it's a podcast, but I do have sometimes links to readings and sometimes links to other videos and things so, that I'll put with, so I always have a transcription of the podcast because obviously some folks can not engage with it, if they're hard, they have hearing struggles, so I always have a transcript available. And with the transcript is where I put additional materials. Will: I was just going to say, one of the things I really appreciated about this session is the way you've demystified the technical aspects. I think if you said to somebody out of the blue “Do you want to make a podcast?”, they'd go, “That sounds really complicated and difficult.” And I think this has been a nice demonstration that it's actually not as challenging and not as big of an ask as it could be. And obviously the opportunity to have some intro music from ccMixter, or right, you can sort of walk that copyright walk in terms of the way you build resources and, or rely on fair use to play a short clip from something. You could ask students to demonstrate their understanding of those concepts in the way they build the podcast. Carla: So, as we're nearing the end of the podcast, I just want to express my deepest thanks, first off to Will and Sara, for this wonderful and very informative discussion on the CASE Act. I know this has been in so many folks' minds and I am welcoming every learning opportunity I can get on this. And I think this has been an exceptional one. My deepest thanks also to our participants. It has really warmed my heart over the last few days to see how much you all are engaging with these presentations, the conversations going on in the chat. I just think this is so fantastic and the chat will be preserved. I know there's some questions about that, so you can download that, and I'm happy to pull links out of the chat, to put in a document that we can ask later. Before we close out, any final thoughts to share, Will and Sara? Sara: I would just say, I'm so happy to see so many people engaging with copyright here in this room today. And just keep on, keep on doing that, right? I mean, I'm always learning something new about copyright every day. And copyright is one of those fun things that changes a lot. Right, as someone was pointing out, “You should talk about music, cause there are a lot of new cases and it's changing a lot”, right? It is. And then the Music Modernization Act changed it even more, right? That's what makes it fun is that it's, it's a moving target, something that you can always learn something new about. I never claim to know everything about copyright because… Kenny Crews might know everything about copyright, but not me. But I always, I just have a passion for it. And I think that's what you need to have if you want to be a copyright librarian and if you're interested at all, reach out to me, we are a really great group of people. We are a really nice group of people and we help each other. It's been, it's been a fabulous career choice for me. I've really enjoyed working with everyone including Karla and Will, and Nancy on this call, and Emily. And I just really can't say enough about it as a career choice. So if you're thinking about it at all, feel free to reach out to me, and I'm happy, I'm always happy to chat with anybody, especially because I love Copyright Chat. Will: Yeah, I'll say the same thing, but not as well, as I've been doing for most of the session today. I, I, it's a really fun community to be part of, and I'm really excited about resources like Copyright Chat and the SCN, that sort of capture the community conversation. And it's not just like “This is the expert and we're going to shut up and listen to them.” It is, “Let's talk about this as a group and share different experiences.” I think we'll get a better and more robust and more invitational, and inclusive as well, understanding of what this body of practice is and can and should be. So I appreciate everybody adding your voice today and I'll second Sara, what she said, please reach out anytime. Questions like “I'm new to the field, and how do I deal with that?” or “What do you think about this?” We're all very happy to have those conversations. Sara: And shout out to Molly and Sandra. I mean, it's just a really fabulous group of people. I cannot say enough about my copyright colleagues. They are just wonderful people also. If you're at all intimidated and you say, “Ooh, it's law, I just don't want to get engaged,” like, talk to us, because really, really you can do it. And especially if you find it really interesting and fascinating and you know, you just really want to learn more. That to me is a sign that you're, you're interested, right? And so, even if you don't want to become a copyright librarian, if you're just like, “I'm going to be the go-to copyright person at my library.” Hey, everyone needs that. That's a certainty. So, and then, don't feel afraid to ask questions when you have them. Because again, I mean, we, we ask questions all the time, and no question is a bad question, and I'm always happy to engage with people, so please, please reach out, and thanks for joining us today. It was so much fun.

Here comes part 2 of Lori and Will's discussion about A.I. and automation. If you enjoy these podcasts, please take a moment and rate or review. You can find the full transcript at https://www.betteratenglish.com/transcripts. TRANSCRIPT PREVIEW Lori: I heard that...I think it's Pizza Hut already has... or no... Domino's is already experimenting with robot pizza delivery vehicles. Yeah. I mean, this this is happening now. Will: Well, you know, a main...I've been talking about this whole automation thing....oh, by the way, jot this down. If you've never seen it. There's a, there's a short 15-minute video on YouTube called Humans Need not Apply. And it puts the entire conversation and frames it into a perfect, digestible, understandable video that explains automation for anybody who's interested and doesn't have, you know, hours of time to spend on the topic. Lori: Oh yeah, great, thanks! Will: So jot that down. Yep, no problem. Lori: Done. Will: But Amazon, which everybody knows who Amazon is, the company, they did, they did something about maybe six months ago or so. They implemented a grocery store that had no cashiers, it was set up with turnstiles that using your mobile device, you would log in before you entered the store. You would get whatever you needed at the market, groceries, whatever you needed, and you would leave, you wouldn't stand in a line you would just walk through the turnstile and be automatically charged to your account. And I remember when Amazon did this I kind of freaked out a little bit because I, I said, you know, I sounded like the crazy preacher man running down the hill, I said to anybody I'd ever spoken to the topic about, they're testing a patent for this type of framework to be rolled out on a larger scale to the supermarket industry. And in the past week, Amazon has purchased Whole Foods and I am positive that it is connected to their concept of implementing this...you know, cashierless...you know, turnstile, just walk in and walk out, fully automated, market shopping experience. Lori: Wow, I ....Oh, my goodness. I didn't know that they had bought Whole Foods. Will: Yep. In the past week. I lost my mind when I read it. Lori: Wow. Wow. I mean, it's something like that, I mean, a lot of people would lose their jobs or you know, the the poor cashiers. But at the same time, it sounds like a nice shopping experience, that you just walk in, get your things and walk out and everything is taken care of...I ...provided that it's all accurately...that you're accurately charged for your items. Will: Yes. Of course, and it's a perfect...it's a perfect example of "If it works for the consumer..." which it sounds like that's a no brainer. And there...if the quarterly numbers come out for Whole Foods, and they see massive profits as a result of not having to carry those salaries and that that level of overhead as a result of employing humans, then it'll also make sense from a business perspective. And we will inevitably start to see the shift into the direction of automation. When it works for people and it works for businesses and the governments are scrambling around trying to figure out what to do with all of these, you know, unemployed unemployable people. It almost like a dirty word, unemployable. You're unemployable. Lori: Yeah. But it really depends on how, you know, what is going to happen with society as this, you know, as these changes start taking place, because the point that that...remind me of what his name was. Do you remember the name of the guy who made this this video about the rise of AI? Will: Aaaah.... Lori: I can't remember his name. Well, in any case, the point he made was that if these things do happen, we could if things go well, and if we plan properly, we could end up with a society where all we humans are doing is developing ourselves, learning new things. Will: Exactly. Lori: You know, just basically living a life of...that...

The show opens with Jeff talking about turning in the manuscript for new/revised edition of Hat Trick. The guys also talk about Captain Marvel. Will reviews Wanted-Bad Boyfriend by TA Moore and IRL: In Real Life by Lucy Lennox and Molly Maddox. Jeff reviews Diversion by Eden Winters. Jason T. Gaffney and Kevin Held join Jeff & Will to discuss their new movie project, the romantic comedy/paranormal themed Out of Body. They recorded the audiobook of the novelization, which was written by Suzanne Brockmann. We also find out about their history-based podcast, The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason. Complete shownotes for episode 180 are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Book Reviews Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: Diversion by Eden Winters, narrated by Darcy Stark. Reviewed by Jeff Eden Winters Diversion series has been recommended to me for some time now and I finally took the leap. This first book was first published in 2012 but just came out in audio in October 2018 with narration from new to me voice artist Darcy Stark, who does a great job with both the suspense and romance. This enemies-to-lovers, workplace romantic suspense story centers on agents for the Southeastern Narcotics Bureau, Richmond “Lucky” Lucklighter and Bo Schollenberger. Lucky’s nearing the end of his forced stint on the job–forced as it was his way out of jail. Bo is new and eager, but is also at the job because of incidents in his past. They end up working together to bring down a ring of drug diversion and insurance fraud that involves a doctor, a drug manufacturer and a drug destruction company. I fell in love with gruff, no nonsense Lucky right away. He’s extremely good at his job, mostly because he used to be on the other side of the law. He exudes frustration and irritation at what he has to do and why and yet there’s a teddy bear in there too because he cares about getting the job done right. The friction that’s stirred up when Lucky’s saddled with mentoring Bo is sublime. Lucky’s looking to ride a desk during his last few weeks at the bureau, but his boss has other ideas. Bo’s very green in terms of what he has to do here–but he is ex-military so he’s no pushover either. He can take what Lucky dishes out and it pisses the senior agent off… and eventually Bo gives back as good as he gets. The friction gets explosive as Lucky battles with himself about the feelings he develops for Bo. The other thing the friction brings is a ton of humor. Lucky and Bo know how to push each other’s buttons–whether it’s blasting Billy Ray Cyrus, forcing healthy eating habits or being messy. It’s a wonderful odd couple pairing that morphs in a beautiful way as it becomes less about antagonizing and more about a sweet nudging of one another to just maybe move things to another level in their relationships. Both men have complicated backstories that make you feel for even more for them. Lucky ended up at the bureau after going to prison for the part he played in a large scale drug operation. He’d been in love with the guy behind that operation and when it all came crashing down Lucky was sure he wanted no part of loving anyone again. The pain Eden created for Lucky is devastating, which makes him all the more loveable when he’s able to come out of his shell. Bo did illegal things to help an ex and ended up taking illegal substances to the point that it’s very difficult for him to be around the drugs in a Pharmacy, which his job requires. There’s also abuse in his past and Lucky’s careful to keep Bo away from triggers as much as he can. The lengths he goes to keep Bo feeling safe are extremely sweet. Eden takes great care in how backstory is presented. Once the men get past their posturing and disdain for each other, they peel back they reveal themselves in a very natural way–as friends, coworkers and eventually lovers do. The good and bad are offered in equal measure and it’s perfect relationship development. The only thing I wanted in this story that I didn’t get was Bo’s point of view. I would’ve loved to know what was rattling around in his head. Not to take away from Lucky though as he was quite the good narrator and this one point doesn’t take away from my love of the book. The Diversion series is up to book seven as of January 2019–with the third book released in audio in February 2019–so I’ve got some catching up to do. I’m looking very forward to that. IRL: In Real Life by Lucy Lennox & Molly Maddox. Reviewed by Will In Real Life combines the classic alpha billionaire character trope with the time-honored scenario of two characters who are combative in real life, but are secretly corresponding with one another and falling in love. Which is the long-winded way of saying it’s a similar set up as the classic movies Shop Around the Corner, You’ve Got Mail, In the Good Old Summertime, and the musical She Loves Me. The way that the characters write to each other has changed and evolved, but the premise remains the same. There’s also hints of enemies to lovers and opposites attract. This book is ripe with tropey goodness. So what’s it all about you might ask? Nice guy geek Conor is in New York to sell his mother’s bio-med technology to a ruthless CEO. The evening before his big presentation he decides to live a little and begins sexting with who he thinks is the sexy hotel bartender. It’s not. The text exchange he ends up having with a stranger, who he calls Trace, is amazing, and through several flirtatious and super-hot online conversations, they begin a fling. At the meeting the next morning, Wells Grange recognizes Conor thanks to the Dalek tie he is wearing. Conor is the hot and horny guy he sexted with the night before. His first inclination is to use this information as leverage in their business negotiations. But Wells quickly begins to fall for Conor, both the sexy online version and the awkward real-life version. As they work through the contracts for the sale, Wells continues his deception. They spend several days together and get to know one another, Conor unaware that Wells and Trace are the same person. We follow our heroes, almost in real time, as they fall in love while working together, going out to dinner, and taking carriage rides in Central Park. Once the business deal is finalized, Wells and Conor finally give in to their attraction and sleep with each other. Needless to say, it’s amazing and life altering for both of them. But, as is the case in stories like these, Conor finally puts two and two together before Wells can come clean about his sexting alter ego. Conor is humiliated and justifiably furious. He packs his bags and returns to North Carolina, with zero intention of ever speaking to Wells again. And rightly so. I’m going to be super upfront with you guys, there are certain aspects of the billionaire trope that I personally find problematic. I was on board with Wells and Conor for most of the story, but there were moments when I had a hard time dealing with certain aspects of Wells’ alphahole personality. In my view, if the ending of this book was going to be believable, Wells was going to have to move mountains and pull off one of the biggest mea culpas in romance history. It may not have been the biggest, but Lucy Lennox and Molly Maddox crafted a finale that was truly heartfelt and genuinely appropriate for our two heroes. To make amends, Wells makes sure Conor’s sick mom is well taken care of and part of an experimental treatment program (her illness was the reason they needed the money from the business deal). Later, when Conor is unable to attend a Comic convention to unveil an important new development in his gaming business, Wells steps in, and personally gives a rousing presentation on Conor’s behalf. Wells proves he isn’t the billionaire alphahole he seems. Yea for true love and happily-ever-afters! Interview Transcript Jeff: Welcome back to the show, Jason and Kevin. Kevin: Thank you. Jason: Hello. Thank you. Kevin: Nice to be back. How you been? Jeff: Awesome. Jeff: Well, we had you on before, we were talking all about “Analysis Paralysis.” But you guys have a lot more going on besides that movie. You’re actually in pre-production right now on a film called “Out of Body.” Jason: Yeah. Jeff: Tell us what that one’s about. Jason: So “Out of Body” is basically a story where it’s a friends-to-lover rom-com. And basically, Malcolm, who’s Kevin’s character, has his body stolen from him and he kind of ends up as a spirit for a while. And he has to prove that he exists to me, Henry, and then when that finally happens, we do some magic, we fight some demons, we might get the body back, there’s definitely a happily ever after because it’s a rom-com. Kevin: You and your end happily-ever-afters. Jason: Yeah. Jeff: It’s important. Kevin: I know, I know. But I just want to the rom…just one time I want a rom-com to be…it’s mostly romantic and funny but everyone does die. Jason: Or they die hilariously. Kevin: It’s a rom-com drama. Jason: Death by rubber chicken. Jeff: And what was kind of the inspiration behind this movie this time? Jason: I don’t even know how this idea came in my head. But I was sleeping one day and I woke up and I was like, “Oh, that’d be really cool. A movie where someone’s dead but they wanted to be together but then they didn’t get to be together. And then they have to fight to get their body back and come back to life.” And so I wrote a kind of a similar but different kind of script. And we did a table read, and my mom was a part of the table read. And she was like, “I love the story you have here. Can I take it and can I change a lot of it and make it like super romance with the comedy?” And so this particular movie and book and audiobook is definitely heavier on the romance than the comedy, as opposed to “Analysis Paralysis.” But it’s, in my opinion, really, really good because the romance really makes…it’s gripping, it really gets you right in the heartstrings. And she basically saw what I was going for and was able to finesse it and really kind of mold it into what my kind of original vision was and then some. So I’m really psyched about it. It’s got a little bit of everything. Will: Yeah, not too long ago, I talked about the novelization of “Out of Body” here on the show. Jason, your mom, Suzanne Brockmann, of course, wrote that novelization, it was rather amusing. Like, I think in the forward she kind of does like a behind the scenes thing where she kind of tells that story where she says, “Jason, this is great. But do you mind if I take it and make it better?” Kevin: Yeah. Jason: Yeah. And here’s the thing, I am all about that. Like the filmmaking, it’s such a collaborative process and storytelling can be a really collaborative process. And I want to make good movies. And so I was really happy with the script that I had written, but when someone who’s as great of a writer as my mom is comes and says, “I want to have fun with this and let me just see what I can do with it,” I’m like, “Hell yeah. Take it. Have at it.” Yeah. Kevin: And the end result is really a script, a novel, and a script that really looks like if brilliant improviser and plot maker and gay comedy guy let his script be taken over by a bestselling romance novelist, what would happen, it would be this. You know. And so it’s really got great, great aspects of all of those elements. Will: Yeah, I really enjoyed the book and the audiobook as well. And I think it’s a really unique opportunity for people who are interested in “Out of Body,” the movie, to check out the audiobook and sort of, it’s essentially like a preview of what they’re going to be getting when the film comes out to the public. Can you give us a little bit of an idea about what it was like to kind of get into the material early before you even like were thinking about shooting by recording the audiobook? Kevin: I can tell you for my part, like, since I’m not one of the writers on this, which is, you know, traditional for me because I’m not usually the writer on a project that I’m acting in. But it’s completely unprecedented to have a novel that you get to perform about the thing before you even film the script. You know, so we get…like as an actor, it’s a freaking dream because I have…so you know how actors have to create subtext and everything, I just have to go to the book, you know, it’s like, “Don’t worry. I don’t have to make it.” It’s already been written down for me. So if I’m wondering, like, what’s happening for Malcolm now, what’s going on there? What’s the deep, deep part of it? It’s already written out for me now. So I would say, so the book is available. It’s on, it’s called “Out of Body.” It’s on Audible.com. And I would say, don’t deprive yourself of the opportunity to say the book was better. Jason: Yeah. And, you know, it was really cool to do the audiobook in general because it was our first audiobook for both of us as narrators. And when we were talking about doing it, we were talking with my mom about it and I was interested in the idea of recording it in a way where it was more like a radio show where we are our characters’ dialogue voices all the time, even if it’s in the other person’s point of view. Whoever’s point of view reads the descriptive stuff in the chapters. But if Malcolm’s speaking, even though I’m the narrator of that chapter, he still says his line, and he still says the lines of the other characters that he had been assigned and vice versa for me. And that was really kind of fun to do because, you know, how often do you get to do kind of a radio show acting gig? And it was also really fun for me as a director to get to do this with Kevin in advance, because, like, he now really knows the story and I know he knows the story. So I know that when he comes to set, that’s going to be really easy. And I got into the head of the other characters as well reading them, and that’ll help me be able to hold my other actors hands and kind of with them through their parts, and still allow them to bring what they want to bring to the role and have it blossom into how great it can be. Kevin: Yeah, and that’s like all separate and apart from the experience of actually recording the audiobook, which you might think was done him some and then me some on consecutive days or anything, but it was actually live together. So we actually recorded in a space that had two recording booths in it. We could both hear each other so that when I am narrating a section and it’s his line, I can hear him do it. And then I jump back in. So it was live editing, like, to take out any breaths or anything, or mess-ups or anything, so, but we got to…you know, it was amazing because I had him in my head the whole time doing it, too. So that was wonderful. It’s a great experience. Jeff: That’s amazing, especially how it connected to your even now pre-production process that you’re involved in because you’re getting ready to shoot in about a month from when we’re recording. In pre-production, give everybody kind of an idea of what that means. What’s going on as you get ready for your 12 days of shooting? Jason: So basically, what I just did was go through each of the scenes and break them up on a piece of paper so that now I have the page count number, like how many pages each scene is. Kevin: These are them. Jason: Oh, yeah. Little strip paper… Kevin: Each one of these is a scene. Jason: And basically, the page count, when it starts, who is in the scene, all that stuff. Because I need to…you know I don’t have every actor every day. I’m going to have Kevin every day because he’s one of the leads. But there’s other parts in it where they’re only going to film for one day…anywhere from one to three days. And so you have to plan their scenes on the same day. And this time, we’re going to actually be filming in two different locations because our neighbors next door sold their house to flippers and they’re doing construction and it’s been kind of never-ending. So we can’t film when there’s kind of heavy construction going on in this house. So we’re going to do a lot of stuff at my father in law’s house and then will come get the rest of it after they’re done here. And so I’ve been doing that with my dad and breaking it into those days while simultaneously working with my cinematographer Nacia to map out which shots are needed for each scene and what angles are we doing. So I put little maps on the other side of the table here. Basically, me drawing out the room layout and doing little circles with an M for Malcolm and an H or Henry, and the arrows pointing they go here and then they go here… Kevin: Oh my god. And this isn’t even talking about how to deal with SAG paperwork or any of the art direction that he’s doing, or any of the clearances that he’s getting for this or that kind of thing. Jason: We’ve got a, we’re going to have a… Kevin: He’s a bit of a doer. Jason: We got Andrew Christian giving us underwear… Kevin: Oh, yeah, we have Andrew Christian underwear over here. Jason: And I’m working with some other companies too. So Outfit is a gay like sports good wear, they’ve given me a patent to us for the movie. Kevin: He’s been stenciling t-shirts and… Jason: Hand design t-shirts specific to the characters. I’m going to be making him a specific shirt three times because he wears the same outfit the whole movie and so if anything spills on it, it’s got to be good and not spilled upon because he magically can’t get stains. And so it’s intense, there’s a lot going on. Like Pinterest is my best friend. I’ve been learning all about how to make DIY Halloween decorations. Because again, when you’re low budget, you can’t spend, you know, $3,000 on set design. You can spend like $200, and so you have to get a little crafty. You have to start thinking like, “Okay, I’ve got five pages of construction paper and a pair of scissors and some tape, how going to make this look like I spent a lot of money on it?” Kevin: He’s like MacGyver. So that’s his experience with pre-production, mine’s a little bit different because I’m not all the hyphenates. So I’m busy making no changes at all to my daily routine. Jeff: You do have a script to learn. Kevin: Sure, when I get it. Jason: It’s in the mail. Kevin: We’re at your house. Jeff: Oh my goodness. Jason: The creating part, like creating the artwork, it actually makes me feel calm. The paperwork stresses me out. And so Matt, thankfully, jumps on that grenade and deals with SAG-AFTRA and making sure that all the paperwork’s there and all the money is in the right place and all that stuff. So thank you, Matt. Jeff: Now, we should say Matt is your husband, so he’s in the production family. Jason: Yes. Kevin: Yeah. Will: So now that our listeners know how completely awesome and funny this project is going to be, can you give us a little bit of info about the Indiegogo campaign? Jason: We have an Indiegogo campaign, basically we crowd-funded “Out of Body” on Kickstarter first, a successful crowdfunding campaign last year. and Indiegogo came to us and said, “We’d like to do an in-demand campaign for you.” So we have an open-ended campaign on Indiegogo right now, where you can help sponsor the film help and get some fabulous rewards, such as DVDs of “Out of Body” when it finally is all finished, you can get DVDs of “Analysis Paralysis,” our last feature film. Kevin: I’m going to get these down from the thingy here. Jason: So you can show people. Kevin: You can actually, because now we’re in the second feature film that stars the two of us. Like we got other projects that I have to do with like if you’re your fans of “Analysis Paralysis,” or perhaps the audiobook of “Out of Body,” you can get these copies, you can get copies of all that stuff. And so as we are on the way to becoming things of all media. Jason: Yeah, exactly. And yeah, so if you go to indiegogo.com and you go, indiegogo.com/projects/out-of-body-a-feature-length-lgbtq-rom-com-movie/, it’s a very long title. Kevin: Really, why don’t you go to indiegogo.com and search “Out of Body.” Yes. Jeff: Or just come to our show notes, it’ll be much easier. Will: Yes, do that. Kevin: Exactly. Go to “Big Gay Podcast” website and it’s going to be in the show notes. Jason: Another place you can find out information about “Out of Body” in the future and any sort of campaigns we’re having, etc., is if you go to tinyletter.com/mypethippo and join our newsletter, you’ll be able to find out things about “Analysis Paralysis” or “Out of Body,” or our podcast, “The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason,” all sorts of fun stuff. And yeah, so and basically indie film, it’s low budget. So every dollar really does make a difference. Like if we get enough money to buy a better meal for the cast and crew, everybody’s spirits raised, it gets raised up a little higher, you know, or we can afford an extra day of filming, or we can afford…it really does matter. So thank you to everyone who has supported us so far. And thank you to everyone who comes and supports us after this. Kevin: Yes, indeed. Jeff: Now, Kevin had this wonderful term about you guys, you know, essentially taking over media. You mentioned the podcast, “The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason.” It’s a comedy podcast about history. How did this idea spark? Because this just adds to you, I imagine, having to research these historical things. Kevin: Now, Jason does all the research for this, you know, and that’s huge. Like, because basically, he doesn’t have enough to do. But the impetus for the podcast, which is “The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason” is, you know, there’s so much bad news all the time. And my mom taught me how to look on the bright side of stuff, you know. If I got one thing from my mom, it was to…I would always complain about this or that and she would constantly remind me of there’s something good here, you know, and you have to find that. And so that’s really the gem of this, it’s really the heart of that show is that, especially when you look around at the news right now, there’s so much bad stuff that is going on. But you have to also recognize that bad stuff creates the opposite reaction. And so who is making the good out of that? You know, who is looking at that and reacting to it in a way of love, or in a way of furthering acceptance, or you know, who’s looking at the transgender ban, for example, that was finally instituted by the Supreme Court? And who is saying, you know, I want to reach out and tell my trans brothers and sisters that you are people and you are valuable and your service is useful and we love you? You know, so who’s doing that? You know, and so that’s what the podcast really kind of focuses on. We do wallow in some tragedy on the podcast because every week we take a historical episode of some varying degree of tragic-ness and talk about it. But then we also, every episode, find out what good that led to. Jason: And it kind of came about a long time ago after “Analysis Paralysis,” like Kevin mentioned in the last episode, we talked a little bit about how we met on a student film and basically got along really well, really quickly, and then we started hanging out together with our husbands and going on double dates, and so it kind of formed this bond. And after “Analysis Paralysis,” which was so much fun, it was 10 days of basically seeing Kevin and laughing and having a good time, I was like, “I don’t want to wait a year-and-a-half for the next project. I want to do something now with you.” Kevin: The experience of just chatting about a topic on a set or something was so much fun and we thought, “We should bottle this.” And then we thought, “You can.” There’s a method for this that’s called a podcast, and that’s what started. Yeah, you know, so now I get to come over here every damn week. Jason: Yeah, come to the Valley. You’re welcome. Kevin: Yeah, when I moved to Westwood I was hoping that my second bedroom would be a good place to record. But it’s not, it’s not good. Too much noise there. The valley’s a lot of things, but it is quiet. Jason: It is quiet. Unless they’re doing construction next door. Kevin: Right. Jeff: You could just turn that second bedroom into a soundproof area. Kevin: No, actually, currently, we didn’t have any…we moved from a house that had a lot of storage into a house that had another bedroom, but no storage. So that second bedroom has just become basically the id of our house. You know, everything’s like ahhhhh, you know? Jason: It’s like in “Harry Potter,” what’s that closet? Kevin: The room of requirements? Jason: Yes. Kevin: It’s the room of please don’t go in there actually. Will: Now, guys, I’m curious. How do you choose which historical events to feature and how much research goes into each episode? Kevin: That’s 100% question for Jason because though I feel that the podcast is a 50/50 pursuit, because Jason does all of the research for the topics that we do, and I don’t ever know what we’re going to talk about until I get here, but then I do all the web mastering and editing and I put up the shownotes and I do all of that stuff. So I feel like we end up spending around the same amount of time on things. Jason: Yeah. So basically, generally about a day of work I kind of surf the web, I find a topic that…like I kind of search, you know, the rabbit hole as to like what kind of weird historical thing is this? And I’ll like Google really weird stuff so my search history… Kevin: Yeah, they’re coming for you. Jason: …completely messed at this point. But like, you know, I’ll look up like “wild strikes historical funny” to see what I get from it. But honestly, there’s been a ton of them I’ve gotten through recommendations of friends and family and listeners of the podcast, and we really encourage listeners to throw ideas at us because there’s some really obscure events in history that I don’t know about that I would love to know about and I could easily find it if I knew to search for it. And so if anyone out there listening has weird events, definitely tweet me or email me. Kevin: You can find him @jasontgaffney on Twitter, and tell him and I don’t want to know about it. Jeff: That’s right. Kevin has to stay in the dark. Kevin: Right. Jason: So what I look for also, I try to look for topics where there’s a lot of tragedy, but you can still make fun of it. Like, if it’s a natural disaster, I try to find one where people made bad decisions with the natural disaster, not that it’s just, like, everyone got screwed and they tried to do the right thing, but they still got screwed because you can’t really make fun of those people. That’s just sad. Kevin: And mean. And it’s really not. I mean, I know we’re talking about a lot of tragedy, and that’s kind of what we focus on. But it’s not a cruel show. It’s not a Schadenfreude, really, because the ultimate goal is to find out what the hopeful aspect of it, who turned that situation into something good, you know. Jason: And you’d be surprised, like, we generally can find it. I don’t think we found one yet where there’s really nothing, no bright side to it. Kevin: No. Because the arc of history is long and you never know what the end result of a pebble, you know, when a pebble goes into a puddle, you don’t know how farther in they’re going to go, you know, and so, like, we talked about that event but that could lead to something incredible later, you know. Jeff: For you, Kevin, since you come in cold to these, what’s been of the episode so far that you’re like, “What? What did I just hear?” Kevin: Oh, my God. Well, the “Empire” panic, for example, has been insane. Like, I have a feeling when I post the episodes, I have a feeling like I hope…My mom and I listened to the Christmas episode over Christmas. And at the end of it, she said, “That was funny and I learned some stuff.” So that’s what…it was like I was, “Oh, good. There we go.” That’s what I would like people to have from it. Is like, “Oh, I enjoyed that, you know, conversation. That was fun and stuff.” But also, “God, who knew?” Yeah, that’s amazing. Because he’s pretty good at this, every episode there’s gonna be some point where I’m like, “Are you kidding? Human beings did this,” you know? It’s always, “Yes, they did,” good Lord. Jason: It’s also it’s gotten way more fun to do the research than it initially was because I was really nervous the first couple episodes to like, “Oh, my God, is this going to be funny? How can I make this funny?” And I was trying a little like…we actually have a couple of episodes that just never aired because I was trying too hard as opposed to just seeing that, yeah, that was absurd. I don’t need to say anything except what they said. And now that I’ve kind of mastered that to a degree. I mean, I’ll keep getting better as time goes on. But now I can really see like as I’m reading stuff, I’ll be like, “Oh, I know that Kevin’s gonna hear that and go, ‘Stop it.'” And then he’s gonna call it out, call the absurdity of it. I don’t need to do anything except, say, like, you know, “And then she picked up the knife and stabbed her own foot.” And it’s like, “Why?” Kevin: Spoiler alert. Jeff: Did you have a knack for history before this, Jason? Or did this just kind of happen? Jason: So I’ve always loved history. I always love the idea of history. When I was actually a little kid, I used to play with blocks a lot. And it’s probably why I like being a producer and a storyteller. I used to have like this giant castle and a giant village and an army of bad guys and I acted out this soap opera for years with the royal family and all that. And I was fascinated with the Romanovs and stuff so I kind of like did a little spoof on them. And so I kind of created like my own worlds, and history and stuff. And so when I can find sites that tell historical stories like a story, which is what history should be told as because it essentially is our story, it’s really fun. It’s really exciting to read it and be like, “No, oh, my goodness, that person’s totally the villain.” And then you read a couple more paragraphs, and you’re like, “Oh, no, they’re misguided. They have a heart of gold. They didn’t know.” And then five pages later, you’re like, “No, they’re just a dick.” And it’s exciting, it’s riveting, it gets you on the of the edge of your seat constantly with how people just constantly mess up. And then occasionally, you have a hero who’s just like, actually a good person, you’re like, “What’s the catch?” So, yeah, you know, history is really fun, especially when it’s told with a fun storytelling lens because… Kevin: And I think that’s like the thrust of the podcast is also it’s about the topic, sure, but it’s also just about how Jason and I interact with each other. And we just have such a fun friendship. And I don’t mean that it’s fun from the inside. I hope it is, but it’s fun from the inside of it. So I have such a good time with him that whatever we’re talking about is going to be fun for me. Jeff: That’s awesome. So besides “Out of Body” and more podcast episodes, what else is coming up for you both? Kevin: I may never work again. Who knows? Jason: We’ve actually started writing the sequel to “Analysis Paralysis” with the hope of filming it at the end of the year, with the additional hope of trying to film it in Palm Springs. Kevin: First time hearing of that. Really? Jeff: Breaking news. Kevin: I love Palm Springs. Jason: We’re gonna do what we can to make it work. And it would require assistance from the Palm Springs community, sure, help house us and give us locations and stuff. Kevin: It’s gonna be all on the gondola. Only there. Jason: What gondola? Kevin: The gondola up to the mountain thing. Jason: Oh, yeah, that gondola. Kevin: The whole thing is set on the gondola. Jason: I was thinking like the gondola with a little stick… Kevin: Yeah, the canals in Palm Springs. Jason: But another thing that I’m actually working on is my dad and I wrote a couple of novellas that you can get on Amazon. Kevin: What are they called? Jeff: “California Comedy Series.” Jason: The “California Comedy Series.” Yes. And I wrote a version of “Fixing Frank” with the hopes to get that kind of ball rolling. And it’s definitely a film that requires a bigger budget than what we have right now. But I’m starting to get those wheels in motion for you know, movie four, five, six sometime in the near future. And so yeah, that’s kind of what I’m working on. Kevin: We keep cranking them out. If people will keep putting them on screens and things, we’ll keep making them. Jason: The goal is to make people laugh. I feel like that’s why I was put on Earth and I feel like that’s why you were put on Earth. Kevin: Well, yeah. I know am laughing whenever I see you so that’s probably true. Jeff: Do we get new “California Comedy” anytime soon? Jason: I have been talking about that with my dad, we actually have a couple that are in the works, it’s just trying to figure out when we have a good time to sit down and edit it. I think after “Out of Body,” I’ll be able to take a look back at one of them that we wrote a while ago and kind of tweak it because there were a couple of things that just never felt right. And so it’s just figuring out how to fix those kinds of plot holes. And then hopefully that’ll be on the market before the end of 2019. Jeff: Excellent. And Kevin, what about you, anything you want to throw out for people to keep an eye out for? Kevin: Super excited about the podcast, actually. You know, going into production on “Out of Body” is really, really exciting. I don’t have a lot of acting projects coming up after that, that I can think of right now. But that’s kind of the nature of acting projects. Jeff: Sure. Kevin: You know, and so the podcast is where you can find us weekly up until the end…and actually, we make announcements there about projects that do come up for us, you know, in the interim. So, you know, to be a loyal listener to the show would be the best way to find out about what’s new with us. You know. Jason: Oh, and I almost forgot. We’re going to try in some way whether it’s self-published or with some other company helping us, the goal is to turn the “California Comedy Series” into audiobooks as well, similar to “Out of Body.” Jeff: Oh, fantastic. So both of you voicing? Jason: Yeah, for two of them. One of them, the plan is to have my good friend David Singletary come in as the role of Mike since that role is African American. And my friend David Singletary is African American and I’m all about… Kevin: Kevin Held is very much not. Jason: I’m all about own voices reading parts and stuff like that. And he’s great. You’re going to love him. Kevin: He is great. I’m a little jealous, but I’m okay. Jeff: Well, guys, thank you so much for telling us about “Out of Body” and the podcast. We wish you much success with those. Jason: Well, thank you. Kevin: Well, much success with your own podcast, gentlemen. Jason: Thank you, yes.  

New York Times TV and Sports Columnist Richard Sandomir joins the Red Ticket Blues podcast. Follow on Twitter @brianbuck13 and @redticketblues Listen on iTunes, Stitcher, TuneIn, Podbean, Google Play, Spotify and other fine podcasting venues He reveals if ESPN transformed his New Years Eve into a wonderment of college football with a gaggle of bowl games including the Cotton and Orange Bowl. We talk a little baseball and the moves at FOX Sports that gave Harold Reynolds and Tom Verducci the heave ho for John Smoltz and Rich talks the best and worst broadcasters in the game. He also gets into his latest project documenting the Hollywood classic, Pride of the Yankees , starring Gary Cooper as Lou Gehrig. Richard takes care of little housecleaning with the NFL of New York City and explains the beauty and therapeutic feelings of being a proud bald man. Will YES be back on the tube for Comcast customers for Opening Day? New York Yankees fans. get ready. Plus, Richard predicts the future of media including sports radio, podcasts and blogs like The Players Tribune.  

There are many ways entrepreneurs can save money and avoid debt by leveraging new tools and resources. On today’s episode, Steve introduces Will Moffett, founder of Upfund.io. Will is an entrepreneur, partner and builder of all kinds of different businesses. He's built many private label products within the physical products industry. Here are more lessons on today’s podcast: The why process and the idea of identifying what you don't want in life to find out what it is that you truly want. Will’s personal experience with the proverb “seek and you shall find”. His list of recommended books. And how Upfund helps E-commerce entrepreneurs scale and grow their business. So subscribe and listen to today’s episode to find out how you too can maximize your finances and avoid debt. Welcome to the Awesomers.com podcast. If you love to learn and if you're motivated to expand your mind and heck if you desire to break through those traditional paradigms and find your own version of success, you are in the right place. Awesomers around the world are on a journey to improve their lives and the lives of those around them. We believe in paying it forward and we fundamentally try to live up to the great Zig Ziglar quote where he said, "You can have everything in your life you want if you help enough other people get what they want." It doesn't matter where you came from. It only matters where you're going. My name is Steve Simonson and I hope that you will join me on this Awesomer journey. SPONSOR ADVERTISEMENT If you're launching a new product manufactured in China, you will need professional high-resolution Amazon ready photographs. Because Symo Global has a team of professionals in China, you will oftentimes receive your listing photographs before your product even leaves the country. This streamlined process will save you the time money and energy needed to concentrate on marketing and other creative content strategies before your item is in stock and ready for sale. Visit SymoGlobal.com to learn more. Because a picture should be worth one thousand keywords. You're listening to the Awesomers podcast. 1:15 (Steve introduces today’s guest, Will Moffett.) Steve: You're listening to the Awesomers.com podcast episode number 31 and as always you can find the show notes at Awesomers.com/31, that's Awesomers.com/31. Today my special guest is Wil Moffett. Will is an entrepreneur, partner and builder of all kinds of different businesses. He's built many private label products within the physical products industry and to do that he structured large teams from around the world including China to bring in that import and supply chain process all the way from China, private labeling, making your own brand all the way into the United States. And he's done that for a number of years now very successfully. He took a little pause because Will and his partner started an inventory crowdfunding platform that's helped raise millions of dollars for E-commerce sellers nationwide. That's called up Upfund.io. We're going to talk in detail about how that concept works, why it's really interesting for especially entrepreneurs who are trying to scale quickly but finding cash flow is a challenge and as always we're going to have fun. Okay Awesomers we're back again. Steve Simonson today joined by Will Moffett. Will, how are you buddy? Will: Hey! Wonderful Steve. How's it going man? I'm so glad you invited me. Oh man, I'm thrilled to be here. Steve: Will has his own podcast, FBA millionaires. What's it called? Will: Yes, FBA millionaires. Steve: That was a one-in-a-million shot there. Let me just say. But I've had the pleasure to be on Will’s show before I recommend, everybody go check it out, subscribe. It’s a very interesting business that we're going to talk a little bit about today. Plus we're going to talk about his origin story which is one of my favorite things to do.

Courtesy of Paul Caruana! In a week of amazing contrasts, I return to continue my look at the Total Rock Review DVD and Mark revistis the ABWH album as well as bringing us his two pence on the future of progressive rock. I also have my say on the current ARW ticket pricing issues. What more is there to learn about the early days of the band fromt he DVD? Who will carry the prog torch? Will Yes fans be priced out of seeing ARW? Listen to the episode then let me know what you think! Show notes and links Circa new album teaser: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kLpmEBrJoo Please subscribe! If you are still listening to the podcast on the website, please consider subscribing so you don’t risk missing anything. You can subscribe with an RSS reader, with iTunes, with the iOS Podcasts app, via email updates, via www.stitcher.com on Spreaker.com or via Tunein.com. Theme music The music I use is the last movement of Stravinsky's Firebird Suite. This has been used as introduction music at many Yes concerts. My theme music is not take from a live concert - I put it together from the following two creative commons sources: thanvannispen and archive.org