Complexified

In this episode, we sit down with Claire Giangravé, a Vatican correspondent for Religion News Service, to explore the pivotal discussions happening at the Synod on Synodality. With nearly 400 leaders of the Roman Catholic Church gathered in Vatican City, the role of women in church leadership has become a central focus. We dive into the historical resistance, theological debates, and cultural shifts that are shaping this centuries-old conversation. Will the Vatican finally open the door to greater leadership roles for women, including the possibility of female deacons? Tune in for an inside look at this momentous moment for the Catholic Church.

"The modern world is impossible to narrate without the idea of land as property and the seizing of land as property." "Imagination is our gift in creating and building new worlds." In this episode, Amanda talks with Dr. Willie James Jennings about the profound impact of our conceptions of land on our world today. Our distorted understanding of land as a possession has led to a shallow sense of connectivity and belonging, impacting our relationship with the earth and each other. The conflicts around us are often centered in conflicts over land, and we need to restructure our communities to create shared living and press against how our communities have been shaped. Understanding the history, shape, and function of the land where we live is essential for deepening our connection to the earth and each other. Imagination plays a crucial role in anticipating the possibility of a lively life together, preparing us to receive the stranger and care for those who are different from us. GUEST: Dr. Willie James Jennings is an American theologian, known for his contributions on liberation theologies, cultural identities, and theological anthropology. He is an associate professor of systematic theology and Africana studies at Yale Divinity School. Willie Jennings' book The Christian Imagination: Theology and the Origins of Race (Yale 2010) won the American Academy of Religion Award of Excellence in the Study of Religion in the Constructive-Reflective category the year after it appeared and, in 2015, the Grawemeyer Award in Religion, the largest prize for a theological work in North America. Englewood Review of Books called the work a “theological masterpiece.”  His commentary on the Book of Acts, titled Acts: A Commentary, The Revolution of the Intimate (for the Belief Series, Westminster/John Knox) received the Reference Book of the Year Award from The Academy of Parish Clergy in 2018. Dr. Jennings has also recently published a book that examines the problems of theological education within western education, entitled After Whiteness: An Education in Belonging Writing in the areas of liberation theologies, cultural identities, and anthropology, Jennings has authored more than 40 scholarly essays and nearly two-dozen reviews, as well as essays on academic administration and blog posts for Religion Dispatches. Jennings is an ordained Baptist minister and has served as interim pastor for several North Carolina churches. He is in high demand as a speaker and is widely recognized as a major figure in theological education across North America.

What makes someone leave everything they know? Why do people risk their lives crossing treacherous deserts into a land they are not welcome in? Migration Activist and Humanitarian Dora Rodriguez shares her story of survival after fleeing political violence in El Salvador in 1980. She compels us to see the deep humanity of those simply seeking safety and opportunity. SHOW NOTES As the Biden Administration moves to limit admission to the U.S. for those seeking asylum, we take a trip to the southern border to meet with those who move between the two countries, supporting those simply seeking survival. In this episode, Amanda interviews Migration Activist and Humanitarian Dora Rodriguez, Director of Salvavision, a Tucson, Arizona-based organization providing aid and support to asylum seekers, migrants passing through or being dropped off by cartels, or migrants deported by Border Patrol in the remote town of Sasabe, Sonora. Hear about Dora's experience as a migrant in the 1980 tragedy in Organ Pipe National Monument, AZ, where Salvadorans fled civil war, resulting in 13 deaths, including 3 minors. This experience propelled her to the forefront of the sanctuary movement in Tucson, AZ. Resources: https://www.dorarodriguez.org/ https://mexico.arizona.edu/revista/brief-legislative-history-last-50-years-us-mexico-border#:~:text=In%20September%201969%2C%20the%20Nixon,created%20our%20modern%20border%20lines. https://www.smu.edu/dedman/research/institutes-and-centers/texas-mexico/about/timeline https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/05/travel/nogales-arizona-mexico-border.html https://salvavision.org

Listening to the needs in their community for housing and childcare led this Colorado Church to make a big decision. Rather than building a bigger church on the 11 acres they sat on, they decided to give the land away and develop a new non-profit with community partners. Does awareness of our history of land ownership in the U.S. shift the way Churches think about their land? “We don't hear stories in scripture of …and then Jesus went home to his house and went to bed, watched Netflix, and had a snack. Jesus's ministry was dependent on the hospitality of others, people welcoming him into their own homes. And so for us, this is a measure of that hospitality, welcoming people here to Heartside Hill to say, ‘You have a safe and secure place to lay your head at night.'” (Rev. Melissa St. Clair) In today's episode, Amanda talks with Pastor Melissa St. Clair, who shares the story of Heart of the Rockies Christian Church, which, after years of work, is giving away most of its 11 acres to support a new community-centered non-profit that will provide accessible housing, childcare, and supportive services.  https://religionnews.com/complexified GUEST: Rev. Melissa St. Clair, Senior Pastor at Heart of the Rockies Christian Church in Fort Collins, Colorado Senior Pastor since January 2013. She delights in the bike lanes, running paths, hiking trails, and the open-minded people in Fort Collins and at Heart of the Rockies Christian Church. Melissa was ordained in 2008 at St. John's United Church of Christ in south central Pennsylvania, where her extended family still resides. Her Master of Divinity is from Eden Theological Seminary (St. Louis, MO). Melissa serves as Moderator-Elect for the Central Rocky Mountain Region and chairs the Board of Stewards for the Center for Faith and Giving. She is an alumna of the Bethany Fellows and a graduate of Leadership Northern Colorado. She currently serves on the Leadership Team of the Ecumenical Circle of the Bethany Fellows. Fort Collins church to transform part of their land for affordable housing Collaborative housing plan at Heart of the Rockies church set for neighborhood meeting Abundant Ground: A Congregational Land Initiative: Does your church have an underused parking lot or land? Could an affordable housing community revitalize your congregation?

As bodies were burning from this massacre at the Mystic River in Massachusetts in 1637, pious settlers gave thanks to God for the victory- and even identified that the bodies burning were a “sweet-smelling savor in the nostrils of God.” Is this really the Land of the Free? Does freedom for some depend on violence against others? Rev Dr. Lee Butler, President of Iliff School of Theology, shares his perspective on the violent history at the founding of the U.S. that continues to influence how we relate to one another today. Amanda and Rev. Dr. Lee Butler discuss the contradictions between the U.S. ideals of freedom and the country's violent history of slavery, lynching, and cruel massacres. In this episode, this duo argues that acknowledging this history is crucial for understanding the ongoing legacies of colonization and systemic inequality, and the importance of redefining this idea of freedom for future generations to come. https://religionnews.com/complexified GUEST: Born in Central Pennsylvania, the Rev. Dr. Lee H. Butler, Jr. is a lifelong Baptist and a first-generation beneficiary of the Post-Civil and Human Rights struggle in the United States. Dr. Butler comes to Iliff School of Theology from Phillips Theological Seminary where he served as the Vice-President of Academic Affairs and Academic Dean, and the William Tabbernee Professor of the History of Religions and Africana Pastoral Theology since July 1, 2020. He is the first African American tenured full professor and the first person of color to hold the office of VPAA and Academic Dean and serve as Acting President at Phillips. As VPAA, his responsibilities included oversight and supervision of the Associate Dean, Registrar, Recruitment, Admissions and Financial Aid, Director of Theological Field Education, Director of the Doctor of Ministry Program, Director of Black Church Traditions Program, Dean of the Chapel, Faculty, and Dean of the Library. He is an active publishing scholar. He is the co-editor of The Edward Wimberly Reader: A Black Pastoral Theology (Baylor University Press, 2020); author of Listen, My Son: Wisdom to Help African American Fathers (Abingdon Press, 2010), Liberating Our Dignity, Saving Our Souls (Chalice Press, 2006), A Loving Home: Caring for African American Marriage and Families (Pilgrim Press, 2000), and numerous articles published in many books and professional journals on the subject of pastoral care and pastoral psychology.

Did you know that for some enslaved Africans, small plots of land became ways to maintain culture and heritage- and even pathways to freedom? Soul Food Scholar, Adrian Miller joins us to share stories that tie land to belonging and survival. Amanda Henderson and Adrian Miller dive deep into the stories about navigating the ways of the land to cultivate food sovereignty within African American communities, despite forced migration and slavery in the United States. As they discuss the truths about the ongoing struggle of food injustice for marginalized communities and the rise of consciousness towards food sovereignty, we learn the importance of connecting and adapting to the land as a means of survival.  GUEST: Adrian Miller is a food writer, James Beard Award winner, attorney, and certified barbecue judge who lives in Denver, Colorado. Adrian received an A.B in International Relations from Stanford University in 1991, and a J.D. from the Georgetown University Law Center in 1995. From 1999 to 2001, Miller served as a special assistant to President Bill Clinton with his Initiative for One America – the first free-standing office in the White House to address issues of racial, religious and ethnic reconciliation. Miller went on to serve as a senior policy analyst for Colorado Governor Bill Ritter Jr. From 2004 to 2010, he served on the board for the Southern Foodways Alliance. In June 2019, Adrian lectured in the Masters of Gastronomy program at the Università di Scienze Gastronomiche (nicknamed the “Slow Food University”) in Pollenzo, Italy. He is currently the executive director of the Colorado Council of Churches and, as such, is the first African American, and the first layperson, to hold that position. Miller's first book, Soul Food: The Surprising Story of an American Cuisine, One Plate at a Time won the James Beard Foundation Award for Scholarship and Reference in 2014. His second book, The President's Kitchen Cabinet: The Story of the African Americans Who Have Fed Our First Families, From the Washingtons to the Obamas was published on President's Day 2017. It was a finalist for a 2018 NAACP Image Award for “Outstanding Literary Work – Non-Fiction,” and the 2018 Colorado Book Award for History. Adrian's third book, Black Smoke: African Americans and the United States of Barbecue, will be published Spring 2021. Sharecropping, Black Land Acquistion, and White Supremacy (1868-1900) Food Sovereignty  Growing Your Own Food: Resources and Tools Talking Trash: Five Easy Steps to Reduce Food Waste

Amanda Henderson and Steven Newcomb discuss the Doctrine of Discovery and the ways in which religion has impacted the social and political frameworks amongst Native nations and the United States government.  In this conversation, Amanda Henderson and Steven Newcomb dive deeper into how the founding documents of the US contain a claim of a God-ordained right for Christians to take land from non-Christians, which continues to be used as legal precedent in today's world. Together, they advocate for a more inclusive and holistic approach to social and political change, one that acknowledges and respects Indigenous perspectives and sovereignty. Steven Newcomb invites us to step into the view "from the shore" as conquerors landed on waters of the Americas and claimed dominion, or domination over all they could see and take. For more information: https://religionnews.com/complexified Guest: Steven Newcomb is a Shawnee-Lenape scholar and author. He has been studying and writing about U.S. federal Indian law and policy since the early 1980s, particularly the application of international law to Indigenous nations and peoples. Mr. Newcomb is the Director of the Indigenous Law Institute, which he co-founded with Birgil Kills Straight, a Traditional Headman and Elder of the Oglala Lakota Nation. Together they have carried on a global campaign challenging imperial Vatican documents from the fifteenth century. Those documents resulted in the decimation of Original Nations and Peoples of Mother Earth and thereby deprived the planet of life-ways, sustainable ecosystems, and Sacred Teachings. Newcomb's book Pagans in the Promised Land: Decoding the Doctrine of Christian Discovery (2008) relies upon recent findings in cognitive theory and a semantic analysis of the Latin and English versions of 15th century Vatican documents. He has identified the little noticed patterns found in those documents and a U.S. Supreme Court ruling, which claimed a right of a “Christian prince or people” to discover and exert a right of domination (dominorum Christianorum) over the lands of “heathens and infidels.” For more episodes and info visit Complexified at RNS

Amanda and Amy dive into the complex relationship between land ownership and belonging in the US, drawing on biblical interpretations. Amanda emphasized the significance of land in shaping political and religious beliefs, while Amy offered nuanced interpretations of the Hebrew Bible, revealing how it has been used to justify land ownership and extraction. In this conversation, Amy and Amanda discuss the Bible's views on land and its interpretation. They explore the contradictory perspectives on land ownership and the connection between land and identity. They also examine the impact of assumptions about land in the United States and the disconnect between urban elites and the land. Amy shares her personal journey of developing a deeper connection with the land through activities like hunting and fly fishing. The conversation highlights the healing power of the land and the importance of understanding our relationship with it. Chapters  00:00 Introduction and Background 03:13 The Bible's Contradictory Views on Land 08:29 Genesis 1 and the Interpretation of Land 12:22 John Locke and the Interpretation of Land Ownership 14:20 The Connection Between Land and Identity 20:23 The Impact of Assumptions about Land in the United States 23:10 The Disconnect between Urban Elites and the Land 26:08 The Impact of Land Use on Communities 28:30 Personal Connection to the Land 30:26 The Healing Power of the Land 33:18 The Bible's View on Our Relationship with the Land Guest:  Amy Erickson is Professor of Hebrew Bible at the Iliff School of Theology. Erickson teaches a range of courses in biblical interpretation, including The Body and Sexuality in the Hebrew Bible, The Hebrew Bible and Ecology, and Jonah and Its Afterlives. Her research interests include Hebrew poetry, poetic and mythological texts in ancient West Asian literature, and the Hebrew Bible's history of interpretation. She has recently completed a commentary on the book of Jonah and its history of interpretation entitled Jonah: Introduction and Commentary (Illuminations; Eerdmans, 2021), and has written articles on Job, Jonah, the Psalms, Zechariah, and Amos for academic journals and edited volumes. Erickson is also a regular contributor to workingpreacher.org, the Huffington Post ON Scripture, The Christian Century, and The Encyclopedia of the Bible and Its Reception (de Gruyter). She is currently working on a book on the Hebrew Bible and ecology. An Interview with Eerdmans Publishing Co. about Erickson's book on Jonah. Commentary on Psalm 146 Commentary on Psalm 121 Psalm 1: Putting Evil in Its Place For more episodes and info visit Complexified at RNS

In this episode, Amanda Henderson talks to Dr. Kristina Lizardy-Hajbi, a biracial scholar and professor at the Iliff School of Theology. They explore the American dream through the lens of personal experiences and the stories of ancestors, especially focusing on the immigrant journey.Dr. Lizardy-Hajbi shares tales of her grandparents from Italy and Puerto Rico, revealing the challenges they had to overcome to settle in America and the personal experiences tied to these journeys. The conversation touches on aspects such as name Anglicization, language loss, and various legal hurdles in the quest for the coveted American Dream. Also discussed is the paradoxical political situation of Puerto Rico as an intricate part of the United States, but lacking in full political representation. Amanda interrogates how religion and differing cultural contexts shaped these immigrant experiences.00:01 Introduction and Background01:14 Exploring the History of Puerto Rico01:41 Guest Introduction: Dr. Kristina Lazardi-Hajbi02:22 The Prerequisites of the American Dream04:10 The Story of Puerto Rican Immigration06:13 The Complexities of Puerto Rican Citizenship10:23 The Impact of Americanization on Immigrant Families14:48 The Italian Immigrant Experience27:31 The Role of Religion in Immigrant Communities33:14 Reflections on the American Dream35:52 Conclusion and Future Plans Want to Learn More?Puerto Rico: A U.S. Territory in Crisis Article:   https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/puerto-rico-us-territory-crisisNew Partnership in 2024 with Religion News Service. Learn more about RNS here: https://religionnews.com/ Want to Take Action? Learn about immigration rights and how to take action in Colorado: https://www.aclu-co.org/en/campaigns/immigrants-rights Sign up for Complexified Newsletter: https://complexified.substack.com/Help Make Complexified Happen - Donate here https://interland3.donorperfect.net/weblink/weblink.aspx?name=E345509&id=75Contact us: email complexified@iliff.eduComplexified Website: https://www.complexified.org/

In this episode, Amanda Henderson interviews Dr. Albert Hernández - a Cuban-American academic with a unique perspective on the American Dream. Dr. Hernández discusses the challenges faced by those who exist in-between cultures, feeling a lack of belonging to either. He shares historical perspectives on the experience of immigration to the U.S, particularly from Cuba, and explores how global political conflicts can drive individuals to relocate, seeking safety and better futures for their offspring. The episode illuminates the significance of personal and political narratives in shaping our understanding of the past and our vision for the future. The discussions range from colonial legacies, racialization, to the long road to societal change.Lastly, it presents a reflective poem reading by Mariela Saavedra Carquin – I swear There Was a River. In Maps You Can't Make, Mariella Saavedra Carquin confronts hard truths in this powerful debut collection, pushing through layered complexities of immigration, race, and identity to find a way forward.00:00 Introduction: The Hyphenated Existence00:33 Understanding the American Dream02:04 Historical Context: Cuba and the United States03:25 Interview with Dr. Albert Hernández: A Cuban-American Perspective05:55 The Cuban Revolution and Its Impact07:50 The Hyphenated Existence: A Personal Journey09:01 The Struggle of Belonging: Between Cuban and American10:19 The Influence of Personal History on Academic Interests13:09 Generational Differences in Immigrant Experiences20:22 The Complexity of Identity and the American Dream23:39 The Role of History in Shaping Our Present and Future30:56 The Long Haul Commitment to Change33:12 Poetry Reading: I Swear There Was a River by Mariella Saavedra Carquin 35:58 Conclusion and Acknowledgements Guest BiosDr. Albert Hernández joined the Iliff faculty in 2001. He teaches courses in the history of Christianity from Medieval to Early Modern times with additional expertise in the history of the ancient Hellenistic-Roman period. His research and teaching areas include the history of mysticism and pneumatology; Muslim and Christian relations beginning with the Crusades; religious diversity in medieval Iberia and the Spanish Empire; and the history of medicine and pandemics. Hernández led the faculty design team that created the Authentic Engagement Program™ focusing his contribution on human flourishing and the philosophy of Happiness.Poet Mariella Saavedra Carquin is a graduate of Middlebury College, holds an EdM and an MA in psychological counseling from Columbia University, and recently earned an MA from Middlebury's Bread Loaf School of English. She is a licensed mental health counselor who has practiced in clinical, higher education, and middle school settings and published in academic journals on the psychological impact of microaggressions experienced by undocumented immigrant youth. Born in Peru and raised in Miami, she currently lives in Colorado. Want to Learn More?Cuban Missile Crisis - https://www.history.com/topics/cold-war/cuban-missile-crisisMariella Saavedra Carquin, the poet who read one of her poems at the end of this episode. Her recently published book of poems confronts hard truths in this powerful debut collection, pushing through layered complexities of immigration, race, and identity to find a way forward.   https://www.juneroadpress.com/maps-you-cant-make Want to Take Action? Learn about immigration rights and how to take action in Colorado: https://www.aclu-co.org/en/campaigns/immigrants-rights Sign up for Complexified Newsletter: https://complexified.substack.com/Help Make Complexified Happen - Donate here https://interland3.donorperfect.net/weblink/weblink.aspx?name=E345509&id=75Contact us: email complexified@iliff.eduComplexified Website: https://www.complexified.org/ 

In this episode, Amanda Henderson talks to Nga Vuong Sandoval, a refugee from Vietnam and United States Refugee Advisory Board Project Manager. The conversation explores the transformation of the American Dream, immigration histories and policies, and the experiences of refugees. Sandoval shares her insights on the true meaning of the American Dream, which she believes should not be drowned by materialism but rather focused on essential human aspirations such as freedom, safety, and security. The episode also investigates how immigration laws shape daily life, how global events affect personal perspectives, and the complex realities of being displaced and navigating life in a foreign country.Lastly, it presents a reflective poem reading by Mariela Saavedra Carquin on the complex realities of loss that come with displacement and resettlement in a new land.00:02 Introduction and Overview02:01 Understanding Immigration Laws and Policies03:55 The Impact of Immigration Policies05:08 Guest Introduction: Nga Vuong Sandoval06:34 Nga's Journey and Perspective on the American Dream13:53 The Influence of Capitalism on the American Dream17:53 The Global Perception of the American Dream21:20 The Role of History in Shaping Perceptions24:22 Empowering Refugees and Asylum Seekers28:27 Reflecting on Personal Experiences and the Concept of Home31:20 Closing Remarks and Preview of Next Episode Guest Bio As a Việtnamese refugee, Nga embraces her heritage and refugee experience and is empathetic to the plight and struggle of other underrepresented communities. In addition to being a TEDx Presenter, she is active in a number of advocacy roles, including being a member of the White House Initiative on Asian Americans, Native Hawaiians, and Pacific Islanders; a founding member and public speaker with Colorado Refugee Speakers Bureau; a refugee advisor for the United Nations High Commission for Refugees Refugee Advisory Group; the first refugee elected to Lutheran Family Services Rocky Mountains Board of Directors and Vice-Chair of the Program Services Committee; a Noble Ambassador for Christina Noble Children's Foundation; an advisory member for Denver's Little Sài Gòn Redevelopment Group; and an advisory member to the Denver Elections Advisory Committee. She previously served as a Commissioner with the Denver Asian American Pacific Islander Commission.Nga earned a Master's Degree in Criminal Justice and Bachelor's Degree in Political Science. In her free time, she enjoys meeting, learning and engaging with diverse communities, reading, writing op-eds on Medium.com, watching documentaries, traveling domestically and internationally, exploring and savoring cuisines locally and around the world and creating origami for her NVS Cre-Asian line that's sold at Ruby's Market in Denver. Want to Learn More?Hart-Cellar Act of 1965: https://cis.org/Report/HartCeller-Immigration-Act-1965The James Truslow Adams book Nga referenced that was published in 1931– The Epic of America: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1192936.The_Epic_of_AmericaMariella Saavedra Carquin, the poet who read one of her poems at the end of this episode. Her recently published book of poems confronts hard truths in this powerful debut collection, pushing through layered complexities of immigration, race, and identity to find a way forward.   https://www.juneroadpress.com/maps-you-cant-make Want to Take Action? Learn about immigration rights and how to take action in Colorado: https://www.aclu-co.org/en/campaigns/immigrants-rights Sign up for Complexified Newsletter: https://complexified.substack.com/Help Make Complexified Happen - Donate here https://interland3.donorperfect.net/weblink/weblink.aspx?name=E345509&id=75Contact us: email complexified@iliff.eduComplexified Website: https://www.complexified.org/

Last month, we had our first live audience recording of Complexified! Amanda Henderson and Lex Dunbar welcomed Denver Drag Performers Juiccy Misdemeanor and Dixie Krystals for a provocative conversation confronting the efforts across the U.S. to ban drag performances. We laughed, we cried, we learned, and we laughed some more! 00:02 Introduction and Welcome00:27 The Complexified Live Episode: Why Ban Drag?01:38 Introducing the Drag Performers: Dixie Krystals and Juiccy Misdemeanor02:50 The Current State of Drag and LGBTQ Rights04:41 The Origins and Evolution of Drag10:41 The Role of Activism in Drag12:34 The Intersection of Religion and Drag13:35 The Impact of Politics on Drag and LGBTQ Community18:37 The Challenges and Joys of Being a Drag Performer46:57 The Importance of Community in Drag49:09 Conclusion and Future Plans Guest Bio & linksLex Dunbar - Co-Host for this episodeLex Dunbar (They/Them) is a Black ENBY, June Gemini, and Norf-Philly native. They are a passionate educator, avid protestor, dynamic workshop facilitator, and compassionate neighbor. Lex completed their second Master's degree at Iliff School of Theology and is currently a PhD candidate in the Joint Doctoral Program at Denver University and Iliff School of Theology. Guest Panelist and Performer: Juiccy Misdemeanor Juiccy is a dancer, artist, drag performer, and a growing icon here in Denver, Colorado. Juiccy is the recent winner of Miss Peach 2023, a dynamic performer bringing life of the party energy to the spaces she occupies. https://www.instagram.com/juiccymisdemeanor/ Guest Panelist and Performer: Dixie KrystalsDixie Krystals has been dazzling audiences for 25 years. Her passion for community is what drives her to excellence. She is an ordained minister, bingo queen, emcee and fabulous hostess with the mostess.Dixie has been featured in Generation Drags, Streaming on Max and Camp Wannakiki Season 5 on Out TV.https://www.dixiekrystals.com/ Music by DJ Erin Stereo for the live event: Erin Stereo is a DJ, curator and record collector from Denver, Colorado. Recently, Erin was named Best House DJ by The Denver Westword, Erin Stereo is known for spinning House music designed to ignite and delight the dance floor.https://www.erinstereo.com/ Links for things shared in the episode:Learn more about Mx, the title in place of Mr or Mrs mentioned in the show: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mx_(title) Want to Learn More?From police raids to pop culture: The early history of modern drag https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/drag-queen-drag-balls-early-history-pop-culture12 historic LGBTQ figures who changed the world - https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/article/historical-lgbt-figures-activists-culture  Anti-Drag legislation - https://people.com/politics/anti-drag-legislation-united-states/Trans History: https://www.historians.org/research-and-publications/perspectives-on-history/may-2018/what-is-trans-history-from-activist-and-academic-roots-a-field-takes-shape Want to Take Action?https://www.lgbtqnation.com/branded/authentic-voices-of-pride/drag-as-activism/https://glaad.org/drag/https://action.aclu.org/give/support-drag-defense-fundVote!  Sign up for Complexified Newsletter: https://complexified.substack.com/Help Make Complexified Happen - Donate here https://interland3.donorperfect.net/weblink/weblink.aspx?name=E345509&id=75Contact us: email complexified@iliff.eduComplexified Website: https://www.complexified.org/

In this episode, recorded before the attacks by Hamas on Israel and the devastating response by the Israeli Military in Gaza, Colorado State Representative Iman Jodeh shares her family story of leaving Palestine in the late 1960s seeking refuge from daily discrimination and violence. Making a way meant teaching Americans about Islam and building bridges of understanding and awareness. Rep. Jodeh shares how the legacy of her parents inspires her to serve as a State Legislator and ensure future generations know the power they hold to shape their future. Guest Bio & linksRepresentative Iman Jodeh is an American politician serving as a Democratic member of the Colorado House of Representatives from the 41st district. Elected in 2020, she is the first Muslim elected to the legislature and assumed office on January 13, 2021. Want to Learn More?History of Palestine: https://www.un.org/unispal/history/Israel Gaza Conflict Timeline by the New York Times https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/07/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-conflict-timeline.html Want to Take Action?6 ways you can support Palestinians in Gaza by the American Friends Service Committee https://afsc.org/news/6-ways-you-can-support-palestinians-gaza Sign up for Complexified Newsletter: https://complexified.substack.com/Help Make Complexified Happen - Donate here https://interland3.donorperfect.net/weblink/weblink.aspx?name=E345509&id=75Contact us: email complexified@iliff.eduComplexified Website: https://www.complexified.org/

In this episode, recorded before the attacks by Hamas on Israel and the devastating response by the Israeli Military in Gaza, Rabbi Joe, from Temple Emanuel in Denver, Colorado, shares his family story. His father's family fled persecution in the late 19th century to find safety in the U.S. After the terror of Kristallnacht, the night of the broken glass, his mother's family fled to the U.S. Rabbi Joe shares how the legacy of seeking refuge and ensuring ‘never-again' lives in him. You don't want to miss Rabbi Joe's song for his mother at the end of the episode, Salty Taste of Tears.  Guest Bio & linksRabbi Black has been the Senior Rabbi of Temple Emanuel since 2010, previously serving as rabbi of Congregation Albert in Albuquerque, New Mexico from 1996-2010. He served as Assistant and then Associate Rabbi at Temple Israel in Minneapolis, Minnesota from 1987-1996. He received his Bachelor's degree in Education from Northwestern University in 1982 and his Master's degree and rabbinic ordination from the Hebrew Union College – Jewish Institute of Religion (HUC-JIR) in Cincinnati, Ohio in 1987. In 2012 he received an honorary Doctorate of Divinity from HUC-JIR.Website: https://www.emanueldenver.org/about/clergy#RabbiBlack Want to Learn More?Holocaust Encyclopedia – KRISTALLNACHThttps://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/kristallnachtHolocaust Encyclopedia –  Pogrom is a Russian word meaning “to wreak havoc, to demolish violently.” https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/pogroms?gclid=CjwKCAiA9dGqBhAqEiwAmRpTC0Hm5LWaL36azOTif9FgHWyCrPG3hIeaO4ZiPVO6vhCajIMc9yWVqBoCRDQQAvD_BwE“ADL Records Dramatic Increase in U.S. Antisemitic Incidents Following Oct. 7 Hamas Massacre”  https://www.adl.org/resources/press-release/adl-records-dramatic-increase-us-antisemitic-incidents-following-oct-7 Want to Take Action?Donate – “By donating to ADL today, you'll ensure we are well positioned to disrupt the spread of antisemitism, anti-Zionism, conspiracy theories and all forms of hate online …”  https://support.adl.org/give/174715/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA9dGqBhAqEiwAmRpTC40oq1U92ujPFS4Z9w4vNotO-PEl9zd6yEKDgtRYVMI1hb4uZgdFMRoCwcQQAvD_BwE#!/donation/checkout?utm_source=paidsearch&utm_medium=googlepaid&utm_campaign=Evergreen&c_src=evergreen&c_src2=googlepaidMonitor – Act – Educate: https://americansaa.org/?gclid=CjwKCAiA9dGqBhAqEiwAmRpTC8c9_WKBVWvPxB0OFzn3-2jPaae0qm3pb5NW3oZeAW_I1f9_F6KT5RoCVWUQAvD_BwE Sign up for Complexified Newsletter: https://complexified.substack.com/Help Make Complexified Happen - Donate here https://interland3.donorperfect.net/weblink/weblink.aspx?name=E345509&id=75Contact us: email complexified@iliff.eduComplexified Website: https://www.complexified.org/

Why is homeownership such an integral part of the American Dream? Why have some been systematically excluded from homeownership while others have been incentivized and subsidized to own their home? In this episode, Dr. Ben Sanders shares his family story of ownership and belonging from an experience as a Black American, as we continue to peel apart the myth of the American Dream.  Guest Bio Ben Sanders, Ph.D is the Chief Equity Officer of the City of Denver. He is an Equity Professional/Consultant, Social Ethicist, Theologian, Passionate Servant-Leader, Change-Agent, Community Builder, and a Dad. Ben creates measurable and effective, equity-centered systems, processes, and policies that help companies, communities, and organizations optimize and achieve their missions and goals. Want to Learn More?NBC News: The American Dream while Black: ‘Locked in a Vicious cycle': Homeownership is supposed to be the gateway to the American dream. Black Americans have been denied access – https://www.nbcnews.com/specials/american-dream-while-black-homeownership/NAACP: the home of grassroots activism for civil rights and social justice.We advocate, agitate, and litigate for the civil rights due to Black America. In our cities, schools, companies, and courtrooms, we are the legacy of W.E.B. Du Bois, Ida B. Wells, Thurgood Marshall, and many other giants –  https://naacp.org/Homeownership rates by Race: https://usafacts.org/articles/homeownership-rates-by-race/ Want to Take Action?Donate to NAACP: https://naacp.org/resources/reparationsDonate to advancing Black Homeownership: https://www.habitat.org/our-work/advancing-black-homeownershiphttps://www.dearfieldfund.com/https://downpaymentresource.com/homebuyer-resource/highlighting-homebuyer-assistance-programs-for-black-homebuyers/#:~:text=The%20Dearfield%20Fund%20for%20Black,through%20affordable%20and%20sustainable%20homeownership. Facing Race: A National Conference: https://facingrace.raceforward.org/ Sign up for Complexified Newsletter: https://complexified.substack.com/Help Make Complexified Happen - Donate here https://interland3.donorperfect.net/weblink/weblink.aspx?name=E345509&id=75Contact us: email complexified@iliff.eduComplexified Website:  https://www.complexified.org/

One afternoon, her clothes, hair, language, name, and even her parents were taken from her.  In this episode, Navajo woman Bessie Smith, who survived the Indian Boarding Schools, shares her story of losing everything and then reclaiming the traditions she learned as a child to find healing. Join us in this episode as we go to Bessie's home in Denver, Colorado, and hear about the day her parents were forced to hand her over to the U.S. Government. Bessie shares with breathtaking detail, remembering the gravity of all she lost. Listen to the full episode for ways you can learn more, and take action to first listen and feel, and then to heal, together. Guest BioBessie Smith (Dzabahe) was born around January 12th, 1942 and raised on the Diné  reservation, halfway between Leupp and Tuba City, Arizona.  She was born into Hashkáán Hadzohí  (yucca fruit plant) clan, born for Bįįhbitodní clan (deer water), and paternal grandfather of Kiyáání (tower house people) clan, and maternal grandfather ofTłeziłaní (manygoats) clan.  She was raised in a traditional Diné way of life. Bessie has been designing and making jewelry for over 25 years. She currently works on a part time basis as a consultant to agencies who are in need of Navajo interpretation services throughout the State of Colorado. Bessie's Jewelry Website: https://www.dzabahe.com/ Links for things shared in the episode:The Denver Post article referenced by Amanda: https://www.denverpost.com/2023/10/03/native-american-boarding-schools-graves-fort-lewis-grand-junction/Supreme Court preserves law that aims to keep Native American children with tribal families: https://apnews.com/article/supreme-court-native-american-children-adoption-8eee3db1e97cee84a7fdcd98d43df795#tbl-em-lnwebu7xuuio4ldv5e Want to Learn More?CPR News Article: Legacy Of Indigenous Boarding Schools In Colorado Includes Unmarked Graves And Generational Scarshttps://www.cpr.org/2021/08/02/indigenous-boarding-schools-colorado-unmarked-graves-generational-scars/9 News interview with Bessie Smith: Federal Indian Boarding School survivor shares the abuse she endured, and how her jewelry business helps her heal:https://www.9news.com/article/news/local/next/federal-indian-boarding-school-survivor-abuse-jewelry-business-heal-denver-colorado/73-91ebf2d1-051f-413d-8977-f97f8ed5c199New York Times article: Researchers Identify Dozens of Native Students Who Died at Nebraska School:https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/17/us/native-american-boarding-school-deaths-nebraska.htmlNew York Times article: ‘WAR AGAINST THE CHILDREN' - The Native American boarding school system — a decades-long effort to assimilate Indigenous people before they ever reached adulthood — robbed children of their culture, family bonds and sometimes their lives:https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/08/30/us/native-american-boarding-schools.html Want to Take Action?Land Back Movement: https://landback.org/Global Fight to End Fossil Fuels: https://climatenetwork.org/can-event/global-fight-to-end-fossil-fuels/ Sign up for Complexified Newsletter: https://complexified.substack.com/Help Make Complexified Happen:  https://interland3.donorperfect.net/weblink/weblink.aspx?name=E345509&id=75 Contact us: email complexified@iliff.eduComplexified Website - https://www.complexified.org/

As debates rage in state legislatures and school boards about history curriculums or critical race theory or the impact of slavery, we know that how we imagine our future has everything to do with how we remember our past. In this episode, we begin our series pulling apart the stories we have been told about the American Dream through our own multiple, honest, complicated stories of Dreaming America. We begin with our host, Amanda Henderson's own family story. Moving West to find a better life, open space, and a land of their own, Amanda's grandparent's encountered hardship and built community. Their story mirrors the classic stories we have been told about pioneers and homesteaders, and there was more to that story, and there is more to our story. Begin the journey for the weeks ahead in the American Southwest with the stories we are told before we move further into the many stories we hold. Resources to learn more:Homestead Act of 1862 - https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/homestead-act#:~:text=The%20Homestead%20Act%2C%20enacted%20during,plot%20by%20cultivating%20the%20land.  Subscribe to the Complexified Newsletter on Substack - https://complexified.substack.com/Connect with us on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/complexifiedpodcast/Complexified Website - https://www.complexified.org/ Resources from the Guest:New River (Images of America) Book, Marcy Millerhttps://www.amazon.com/River-Images-America-Marcy-Miller/dp/1467115932Land of Our Own: New River, Arizona Paperbackby Pauline Essary Grimes (Author)"How the American Dream Has Changed Over Time." Gale Student Resources in Context, Gale, 2016. Student Resources in ContextA Brief History of the American DreamAn Essay by Sarah Churchwell, Professor at the University of London, and Author, Behold, America: The Entangled History of ‘America First' and ‘the American Dream'

The American Dream… is complicated.  It always has been.For some - this dream has been a nightmare… a mirage in a forsaken desert.A myth.For others, it's been an oasis from hardship, oppression, violence.… a vision realized through physical freedom and material success.This season on Complexified, we're asking:Where did the myth of the American dream come from?What's it got to do with religion and politics?And how is it shaping our lives, for better or worse?Coming to you from the Institute for Religion, Politics & Culture at Iliff School of Theology, I'm your host, Amanda Henderson, back with a new season of Complexified…my show about the powerful ways religion and politics intersect and affect my life. Your life. And all of our lives, together.Each week, I'll share what I'm learning as we turn the myth of the American Dream into our multiple, honest ways of Dreaming America.Complexified: Dreaming America launches October 5th. Follow and share the show now, wherever you listen. 

 Denise is an award-winning Latina filmmaker and cultural storyteller. Denise is the American-born daughter of first-generation immigrants from Puerto Rico, growing up first in the Bronx and then in a mostly white community further upstate in New York. She never felt like she belonged anywhere. not white enough and American enough for the suburban community around her. Nor fluent enough in Spanish to feel completely Latina. She was a girl and then a woman who felt out of place. So what did she do? She created a film called,  "Being Enye". All about that sense of being in between. 

Dr. Butler is the founder of the seekr project, a distinctively black conversational artificial intelligence with mental health capacities, and is partner director of the Iliff School of Theology's  AI Institute, where he works to change how computers see people. 

Ian is a political strategist, dad, and the first gentleman of the seventh congressional district in Colorado. We discuss the tension between incrementalism and revolutions and how religious ideologies influence our political mindsets.

Check out Dr. Yetunde's books! 

For more information about Dr. De La Torre, visit his website and check out all 42 of his books! "All that you touch, you change. All that you change changes you. The only lasting truth is change. God is change. " Octavia E. Buter

OCTAVIA E. BUTLER - The Parable Series

Amanda and Lex talk about their favorite episodes and what they've learned in these first two seasons of the Complexified podcast! They also share the vision and what you can expect for season 3!

We are approaching the holiday season, and many folks have questions and anxieties about sharing space with family members with whom we disagree based on our political understanding and involvement in the world. Sarah Holland and Beth Silvers from Pantsuit Politics talk with Amanda, and they help us approach the holidays with family and engage them in political discussions rooted in love and care.

Reverend Dr. Jennifer Leath speaks on liberation and the AME church. We hear about her journey growing up as a Quare young person knowing that she was called to preach and how she had to make choices aligned with HER TRUTH. We also dive into her decision to move to Canada and her quest to become a mother.

Why does the government care so much about our bodies and whether we have babies? Get nerdy with us as we talk with philosophy professor Thomas Nail, and explore the history of governments forming the populations they want to govern.

Rabbi Joe Black joins us in the studio to share his moving music and poetry. Rabbi Joe helps us understand what Jewish tradition teaches about abortion and shares his own story of navigating difficult life and death decisions in his own family.

We continue our conversation about religion, politics, and abortion with biblical scholar, pastor, and professor of New Testament at Iliff School of Theology, Reverend Dr. Eric Smith. Eric and Amanda talk about some of the ways the Bible is used in anti-abortion arguments and how it shapes our society and our cultural expectations. We ask what the Bible can actually teach us to understand about abortion.

Iliff Student Lex Dunbar and host Amanda Henderson share their personal stories about their relationships with the anti-abortion movement and journies toward championing equitable reproductive health and justice. These stories are powerful and eye-opening - unveiling the truth behind the manipulation, harm, and misuse of religious ideals that uphold the anti-abortion movement in their missionary efforts. **accidents happen when you're talking on the fly we know Mike Brown was murdered in 2014. Sorry for the mistake!**

Born in a Church, and raised moving between the worlds of poverty in Jamaica Queens, and private school in the wealthy Upper East Side of New York City, Ann Marie Benitez knows what access to healthcare looks like when you have resources, and when you dont. Listen in to learn about Reproductive Justice, and the realities people of color face when trying to access reproductive healthcare after the end of Roe v. Wade.

Over the last year, a number of things have happened that signal an alarming change in American life: church and state seem to be no longer separate. In this episode, lawyer, advocate, strategist, and President and CEO of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, Rachel Laser tells the stories of those whose lives are directly impacted when the Supreme Court favors one religious ideology over the well-being of families and children. And she shares how her own family story shapes her work and reminds us all why the separation of church and state is vital to our democracy.

Articles mentioned in the episode: Understanding Christian Nationalism - Diana Butler BassColorado Politicians Address Christian Fundamentalists in Woodland Park - Heidi BeedleRep. Boebert tells churchgoers to ‘rise up' at far-right Christian conference -  Chase WoodruffDeSantis' ‘full armor of God' rhetoric reaches Republicans. But is he playing with fire? - Ana CeballosReport on Christian nationalism and the January 6 insurrection - BJC Is America a Christian Nation? - Americans United Politicians, Christian fundamentalist activists plan an American theocracy - Heidi Beedle

Check out Ian's podcast "The Get More Smarter Podcast" on all streaming platforms!   

Rev. Dr. Jacqui's newest book,  Fierce Love,  "is a manifesto for all generations, a universalist's vision for mending our broken hearts and fractured world" - Get your copy TODAY! For more wisdom from Rev. Lewis, check out her podcast "LOVE. PERIOD. WITH REV. DR. JACQUI LEWIS" For more resources on the historical connection between anti-Black racism and abortion see the article links below: The Racist History of Abortion and Midwifery BansThe Religious Right and the Abortion Myth 

 S1E04_Schenck_FINALWed, 8/31 5:43PM • 53:55SPEAKERSRob Schenck, Amanda Henderson Amanda Henderson  00:04This is complexified where we dive deep into the places where religion and politics collide with Real Life. I'm your host Amanda Henderson. Today on the show, evangelical pastor, political operative and author Rob Schenk. Too many Rob Schenck is the father of the anti choice movement. As a young pastor, he drew headlines for a stunt in which a dead fetus was thrust at President Bill Clinton. Later, as you'll hear, Rob had the ears and the hearts and the pens of conservative Supreme Court justices. Years later, I had the chance to visit him in his old office overlooking the windows of the Supreme Court chambers. Today, Rob has done a complete about face and his political views. And about face he revealed in his memoir, Costly Grace. And as founder of the Bonhoeffer Institute, he's fighting the rise of Christian Nationalism. Rob Schenck, I am so grateful to have you on our podcast complexified. You are someone who has lived the complexity of religion and politics in your daily life. And it's central to your story. So the first thing that I want to dive into is the ways that we are seeing this rise in Christian Nationalism today. If we've been watching the January 6 hearings, or paying attention to the news at all, we know that one of the biggest threats that we face as a country and as a democracy is this rise in Christian Nationalism. Can you speak to the ways that you see Christian Nationalism as an immediate threat? Rob Schenck02:14Well, first, thank you, Amanda, for the invitation. I'm just as grateful to be in conversation with you, especially about such an enormously consequential subject. I actually seek Christian nationalism as the greatest threat to our democracy, and not just to our democracy. But to free countries and liberal democracies all over the world. I see Christian nationalism as distinctly different and not just different, but opposite of what you see in the model, and Person of Jesus, who was motivated by love for the other affirmation of the other invitation and embrace of the other. And Christian nationalism is the antithesis of that. It's the rejection and contempt and even violence towards the other. So I do see it as the greatest danger we're now facing, for for more than one reason. Amanda Henderson  03:36Can you take us back to your early story, you were raised Jewish, and in your high school years, converted to Christianity and really picked up the helm of this fundamentalist Christianity and then became a leader in that tradition? Rob Schenck03:58Sure. Well, it didn't start that way. You know, you. You referenced my upbringing, which was in a very liberal Jewish home, although as they say, south of the border,  my mother had been a convert to Judaism. Born and baptized, Catholic-raised, Episcopalian, really had no act of faith when she met my father. The family requested very strongly that she convert to Judaism to marry him. She did, and they pledged to raise their children with Jewish identity. So four of us were raised that way. But my mom and dad were very open minded people they said, go out and and shop religion and make your own decisions. And we each dead, and I found the son of an evangelical Methodist minister, who became a close friend And I was introduced to the message of Jesus in this little country church, I was 16 years old. And I had cut my teeth in activism, protesting the Vietnam War, I was anti war, I would have identified then as a pacifist. And here was this person of Jesus I saw as certainly against war and violence for peace. He loved the stranger, marginalized, he looked to me like a hero, in every sense, a moral hero. And I was very drawn to that message, I made a public profession of faith. And two years later, when I was 18, I went to cast my first vote happened to be the 1976 presidential year. And I voted for Jimmy Carter. Why? Because he seemed to exemplify all of the virtues that I saw in Jesus and the Sermon on the Mount. Love for the poor, for the margin lies for the suffering, advocate of peace, and so forth. So that was my first encounter with Christianity. And it was the gospel, the message that I embraced, but then as the years went on, and I went to what we call Bible college, which was preparation for professional Christian ministry, and seminary in very theologically conservative settings. I was introduced to the National Association of Evangelicals, and this was during the rise of Ronald Reagan, Jerry Falwell, the Moral Majority, a new political brand of American evangelicalism. Yeah. And that's really important to name I love the way that you really lay that out that this was a new brand, and a new way of expressing evangelical Christianity. And a lot of folks assumed that that's always been the case. But you, you were right there at the beginning of this movement. Sure, I mean, 100 years before that, or maybe 150. Before that. Evangelicals, at least a good portion of them. Were abolitionists working against slavery, they would later work against child labor, they would be some of the first to ordain women and give them leadership full and equal leadership posts in the church, you could argue that for a little period of time, evangelicals looked quite progressive. And then they became terribly regressive. And by the time I was at the seat of the leadership table in American evangelicalism, we were not just regressive. We were politically co opted, and strategically so and it was largely at the hands of, and I'm gonna say this with great affection for folks I know in the south, and some of whom were leaders in the civil rights movement, white and black. But at some point, Southern evangelicalism gained the ascendancy in the United States. So you had figures like Jerry Falwell from Virginia, and favoring the South, who now kind of took over and muscled out those more progressive evangelicals, marginalize them. And Ronald Reagan and the Republican Party struck a deal with the National Association of Evangelicals and other evangelical groups, particularly the fall well, web. And suddenly, you know, I was swept up in that Ronald Reagan was the first president to address a sitting body of American Evangelical leaders, and I was literally on the front row, literally, made sure I had a front row seat when he addressed the annual convention of the National Association of Evangelicals, I was there, and I felt the glow of presidential affirmation, and that would lead to a second conversion that I call my conversion to Ronald Reagan, Republican religion, otherwise known as white American evangelicalism. Yeah, that's so important. To name the way that felt to be recognized by someone with power, and to feel the effects and the ripple of that power in your own self and perhaps ego.  Amanda Henderson  09:58Can you speak a little bit to that feeling of being in that circle, being at that table on the front row with the most powerful decision makers in the world.  Rob Schenck10:10Sure, you know, some may think that white, privileged aggrievement was invented by Donald Trump it, it wasn't it, it preceded him by decades. And even in the early 80s, I can remember rehearsing over and over again how American evangelicals were a persecuted and disfavored minority in America. And there was a kind of myth that we were somehow disadvantaged, like, we didn't, you know, we didn't go to Ivy League schools, our clergy were some of the least educated, sometimes non educated people. And so the elite, you know, the Harvard, Yale, Stanford Duke crowd, looked down their noses at us, and publications like The New York Times, and The Washington Post, classified us as sort of the uneducated, ignorant masses. And so we had a feeling of aggrievement, we were aggrieved, and we wanted somehow to get back at elitist culture for persecuting us. And that was very present in those settings. So to have a President of the United States, say, I need you, I'm for you, a whole political party is behind you. And we want you to be in leadership, not to be marginalized. But in fact, to take center stage, that was a real rush to use colloquial language. It was relief, it was a feeling of empowerment. And up until that time, you know, we talked about servant leadership, that you lead by serving others by meeting their needs, by reaching out and loving them even when that affection wasn't reciprocated. And that's pretty tough to do. And I felt a little weary of it by then. And here was a way to instantly claim our place in society, on the national stage, in terms of influence, and even power, because we knew what the bully pulpit of the presidency meant executive powers, it probably meant that we could get a congress someday that would reflect our principles and values. And that's the tack that I took. And it was the track that I set out on. And eventually, I would take my place at the table in Washington, and visit with presidents, with leaders of Congress and ultimately with Justices of the Supreme Court. Yeah, it proved to be right. I mean, I predicted that, and in fact, it took 20 years, but it came to pass. Yeah.  Amanda Henderson  13:42Can you speak to your role in the anti abortion movement and the work to overturn Roe? And just kind of lay the groundwork for how that came to be? For you? Rob Schenck13:57Yeah, well, it started when I was recruited to participate in blockades of clinics, where abortion services among other reproductive health care was offered. And I thought of it as very much in the tradition of, you know, the civil rights movement when there were, you know, lunch counter sit ins. And, you know, we use that language and even sang those songs modified for our movement. And when I entered that arena, he saw, you know, what I then termed the unborn child as a victim of social prejudice and violence, and they needed advocacy. So we were advocates, but very early on in that experience, another voice came into the movement. Rush Limbaugh now notorious, you know, three hour per day, afternoon arch conservative radio talk show host, who, as far as anybody could tell, had no Christian  sensibilities whatsoever. Yeah. But he glommed on to our movements saw it as a kind of hot poker in the eye of liberal elites and championed us. And now we had another kind of public affirmation. It wasn't Ronald Reagan, it was Rush Limbaugh, yeah,  Amanda Henderson  15:41and a real broad reach that can't be understated the reach of his voice during that time,  Rob Schenck15:48massive. In fact, he would quickly rise to the most listened to radio talk show host in broadcast history, and would move political mountains with his influence. And we were a favorite of his. And so suddenly, the movement began to transform. Even using his peculiar vernacular, he invented all kinds of neologisms and bumper sticker type slogans and and we started employing those just as a way of identifying with his massive public influence and political influence. As people may recall, he was the one that Donald Trump would drape with the Presidential Medal of Freedom during a State of the Union address, shortly before Rush Limbaugh died in a very ostentatious, cynical move. But in any case, that's how big he became over time. So that swept me into a fully politicized form of the pro life, I more accurately now terminate the anti abortion, even anti woman movements. And I watched that happen to when I first joined the movement in the late 80s, early 90s, we had many women leaders. But with time, the men would start shoving women, sometimes literally, physically aside, push them out of the way, take center stage. Eventually, those women those women leaders would disappear from from the platforms and take a very secondary or tertiary role in the movement. And the men started showing up. I harbored some doubt about this, but it was unspoken at the time, but the guys would start showing up literally in lizard skin boots. Why buckle belts, sometimes empty holsters on their belts because they didn't want to be arrested for having a weapon or with a weapon. And we were all being arrested for blockading the clinics and they didn't want to complicate matters with a firearm, but they would wear the empty holster to prove I could be wearing a firearm. I could be staying packing gently firepower. And literally Amanda, I'm not kidding you. 10 gallon cowboy hats started showing up everywhere. And suddenly this movement that had been a mix, a gender mix of leadership became exclusively male, and a kind of cartoonish, characterized male movement. And that would set the ethos, the tone of it for the next 20 plus years.  Amanda Henderson  18:52Yeah, one of the things I think we aren't fully aware of at this point, is the ways that these Christian nationalist ideas impact so many different areas of our life. And most recently, the dobs decision in the Supreme Court, which undoes 50 years of precedent with Roe versus Wade, and the effort tooverturn Roe is a part of the pole toward Christian nationalist ideology in the United States today. How did you in that time, see your Christian identity connected to your identity as an American?  Rob Schenck 19:42Yeah, that gets to the heart of the thing, because over about a 10 year period, I came to embrace and promote literally preach and promulgated this idea that our opposition to abortion was grounded in the claims made in the Declaration of Independence, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And we would say, I would say it, all of our leadership would say it over and over again right about it, and so forth, we would say, the first right is the right to life. You can't enjoy liberty, or pursue happiness unless your life is first defended. So therefore, we must defend life from the moment of conception until natural death. Now, that was a distinctly religious notion. And a distinctly Christian one, and even a more contemporary Christian one. Yeah. So yeah. It's not an ancient idea. Now, it's a new idea. So I failed to appreciate that, how narrow that interpretation of life is.  Amanda Henderson  21:13Can you say a little bit more about that? How is that a new idea? Rob Schenck21:16Well, first of all, it has its origins in Catholic moral teaching, not even in Protestant and certainly not in evangelical moral teaching. Right up to 1973. It shocks people to learn that the Southern Baptist Convention and many other evangelical bodies in the United States actually supported Roe v. Wade in 1973. It was Catholic moral teaching. That was, you know, opposed to Roe v. Wade. There are various dates for that. You know, some will go back to the early centuries of the Christian church, others much later in time, medieval, or even 16th century, 17th century. You know, it depends on which scholar you're talking to. But in any case, it does not date to biblical times. In terms of the Bible, the oldest contemplations instruction, resolutions on these questions are found in Judaism, not in Christianity. And I've argued, Jesus was Jewish. The early disciples were all Jewish. The message of Jesus was contained within the Jewish community. It was proclaimed in synagogues, not in churches, they hadn't been invented yet. So this was a Jewish ethos. And while you find Jesus commenting on many things, he never comments on abortion, even though abortion was widely practiced, in that period, the New Testament period. And in fact, there's been hard evidence of that. Archaeologists have exhumed hard evidence of abortion practices in that world. And yet Jesus never comments on it. Why? I'm convinced it's because he held to a Jewish belief about this, which is that the unborn fetus, the gestating human is of a different order than the Born and independent humans. I'm not an expert on it. I will just say that in Jewish moral instruction, first of all, the woman is always preeminent is in first position, the fetus in second position. And all of this was obliterated by modernarch, conservative, Catholic and later Evangelical, Protestant, moral teaching. It does not have its roots in Scripture, or in Christian history. It has its roots in modern social and political phenomena. And that's really important for us to understand that. Yeah. And when does this get tied to American identity and politics and Christianity? That first happened in the early 70s. But it wouldn't really take hold until the mid 80s. When groups like the Moral Majority, national right to life, and others struck a deal with the Republican Party. And that deal would progress as it went along. You know, in the first instance, it had mostly to do with presidential politics than it would become congressional politics. I was there in the middle to late 90s, at the tables with Republican Party operatives, when they offered us a deal. And they said, Look, we're with you on abortion, we know you want the reversal of Roe v. Wade, we're going to give you that we're going to deliver that for you. But in exchange, and some of them would be quite crude. I can see this, I was seated at an oak table inside the US Capitol, there were a number of national evangelical leaders at the table I was there. I would now put this at about 1995. By by now. It was after the what was called the Republican revolution of the early 90s. And a party operatives said, Look, in exchange, we're going to take down Roe, we're going to make abortion illegal in this country. But you're going to have to give us your full support, you understand that? Wow, everything we bring to the table you will support because there's nowhere else for you to go. You understand that? And there were literal handshakes across the table, we understand. How did you feel in that moment? Do you remember having any doubts or hesitations? Or were you all in? I had momentary reserve, I was a tiny bit conflicted, not enough to count, because it became the perfect expression of the ends justify the means. We have to get rid of this evil called abortion, whatever it takes, that's what we will deliver. And then over time, you become inured to those flashes of conscience. And I regret that deeply. And I'll carry that regret to my grave. Because I wish I would have listened to the voice inside of me. And I didn't. And I'll tell you that. And you know, we all know this to a certain degree. But boy, I'll tell you when you are given unfettered access to a White House, to congressional leadership, Speakers of the House, Senate leaders, and eventually, to the Justices of the Supreme Court. It's very seductive. There's a kind of washing over of your conscience that happens. You have to be extremely careful. And I was not. Frankly, I think the black church gives us the best example of how to maintain one's integrity, moral integrity and still engage. The white church failed entirely on that point. And I was part of that failure. So how did it feel it both felt like almost a superhero power had come over me. And at the same time, I felt in one sense, I lost myself. It was a very hollow feeling that became worse over time. Amanda Henderson  28:39You've been talking a lot about the Supreme Court and and your role as a part of the fundamentalist Christian evangelical movement in the concerted effort to influence the courts and to influence the Supreme Court particularly to build enough power to overturn Roe. Can you speak to that history and your own realizations at this point around that work?  Rob Schenck29:12Well, part of my work in Washington, my headquarters building was immediately across the street from the Supreme Court, I literally looked into the chambers of the justices from my office window of I could look into the conference room where they would eat lunch and then cast their votes on a decision, what's called the Sanctum Sanctorum of the Holy of Holies of the Supreme Court building. And part of my work in the in that time was to not only engage with the justices on a personal face to face level, but to introduce other influencers inside the religious right to their most personal spheres social spheres, into conversations with them. If they could travel with the justices invite the justices to their homes, to their places of business and so forth, all in an effort to bolster their sensibilities that this was exclusively with the conservative members of the court. We didn't even bother to try to engage with what we call the liberal side of the court. In those days, we just went to the conservative justices. We hatched the phrase Minister engage in the ministry of embolden meant to embolden them so they would be stronger, more confident, even more strident in their verbiage, their language, the positions they held, and eventually into their dissents, and even into their majority opinions to actually render up really strong, unapologetic uncompromising positions. And decisions as they did in a number of cases, including the most recent knobs with the reversal of Roe, probably the strongest and most strident right wing language we have ever heard, in an opinion, maybe since the 19th. Century, when, when there were decisions on slavery, and Jim Crow and so forth. So, you know, the quick answer is that was part of my quiet work. It was invisible. We didn't publicize it at all, for obvious reason. And I'm sorry to say it was quite effective. What we did in those years, Yeah, it sure was, we inserted what I called our stealth missionaries into the life of the court. And all these years later, I see that we achieved our objective. Amanda Henderson  31:53Can you speak to those early cracks in your worldview, and your understanding of the work that you were doing and the way that you were moving in these religious and political spaces with such power? When did you start to question your own actions, the whole house of cards that had been built up around your work and ideas at that point?  Rob Schenck32:27Well, it was anything but a sudden flash, to some degree, I harbored those doubts all along, but I, I came up with techniques to silence the voice of conscience deep inside of me to compartmentalize put it on a shelf, tell it, I'll I'll visit you later, sometime. Not now. There's too much work to do. But they were with me. And in particular, one thing that my father had asked me once very early on, and he said, you all talk about making America a great country and promoting its best and making its very best. I have a hard time with that. Because when I was growing up, as a Jewish person, I couldn't join certain clubs. I couldn't go to certain schools. I was beat up for being a Christ killer. When was it so good. And that haunted? And once in a while, I would visit that question and worry a little bit about it. But then I would move on. I remember sitting in a room with several members of Republican members of Congress in Washington. And we were talking about some upcoming election. I can't remember which one, but I do recall saying, you know, in, in our news conferences, we always have a phalanx of white middle aged men. Shouldn't we bring some women and some people of color into this mix? And a congressman from Alabama said, that ain't gonna help our numbers any? What's the use of that? And when he said that I winced and worried about it. But again, I kind of put it in a cabinet and said someday we'll deal with that problem, but not now. And so life went on. And then came a time and I'm almost embarrassed to tell you this. I'm not even sure you know, it was that bad. But I got very involved with former Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore.  Amanda Henderson  34:41Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah.  Rob Schenck34:42In his campaigns for Chief Justice, which he want to  Amanda Henderson  34:47say a little bit about Roy Moore. Who was he for those who might not remember that name?  Rob Schenck34:52Chief Justice Roy Moore was the Chief Justice of Alabama. I became aware of him when he was a circuit court judge in a little known rural courthouse where he had displayed a hand carved set of the 10 commandments on the wall. He was sued for that, because there were those who came in and said, How can I be sure I'm going to be treated fairly by this judge when he puts his religious beliefs right on the wall, and I don't share those religious beliefs. He won, he lost, he won, he lost. Eventually, when He ascended to Chief Justice of the state, he came up with a plan of installing a massive stone monument of the 10 commandments in the Supreme Court building of Alabama. And I helped him with that, literally, I went down and literally rolled up my sleeves and helped install that giant monument in the Alabama courthouse that would ignite a federal lawsuit. And he would eventually be removed from office by a court of the judiciary, which is extremely rare, even on a state level like that. While I was down there, I was arrested for supporting him in a protest, and I was thrown in the montgomery county jail, which at the time, was full to overflowing. They had a lack of cells to put me out. And so they put me in the psychiatric wing of jail. But it was a very, very sad, very tragic place to be. And oddly, it was the only wing of the jail. That was co ed. So there were men and women on this wing. And three doors for myself was a woman. And this is always difficult for me to tell this story. But there was a woman in a cell who was obviously, you know, experiencing some form of mental illness, she was in great agony and distress, and she kept screaming all day long. Where am I babies? I have three kids. Nobody knows where my baby, where are my babies? Where are my kids? Well, it was at first grating to hear that. And then it just started tearing at my heart at my conscience, hearing this woman's please, to which no one responded, not a soul. Nobody came to her aid. And so I was sitting there tortured, with sound, this woman screams but what I realized in that moment, was I had carried with me this imaginary bubble. All of my career as a national pro life anti abortion leader. The movement I was a part of had this kind of dream state where we imagined that any woman who was in any form of distress over a pregnancy, all she needed to do was cry out for help. And Christians would come from everywhere to assist her. We would bring everything from diapers to food vouchers, to child care, promises babysitting to whatever she needed. We would come to her aid, why would anyone ever want to have an abortion? And all the support you need is right there just for the taking. Call out and we will be there for you. No one was there for this woman. No one No one came. No one cared. No one responded. And for the first time, I came face to face with the reality of a desperate mother who could not care for her children. And she was right there in my conscience in my hearing in my presence only a few yards from me for a torturously long period of time. And I and I tell you that because it awakened me to something that I had never not engaged in to that moment, which was the reality of her world. And quietly I thought, you know, all this time, I have demanded that others leave their reality to live in my fantasy. And in that moment, I was being called out of my fantasy into her reality. And it was like an awakening. But I would still go back to Washington after it was all over and put her on the same shelf where I had put a whole lot of others. And it would await another, I'm sorry to say 10 years, before I would take that off the shelf, that terrible cry of anguish. Amanda Henderson  40:29It's this encounter with the real life of another person that has the power to crack open our fantasies and our imagined worlds. And it's not immediate, as you just named, it takes so much time. And I think that's one of the daunting things about this work. And these efforts to counter Christian nationalism, and these ideal ideologies, and ideas that are so rooted in the imagined worlds that we build for ourselves and that we place on others, it takes so long to break through those cracks. Rob Schenck41:24And it would take a decade, until finally I reached the tipping point. And it was a whole combination of things too numerous to detail here. But the real breaking point for me, came when I took a leave of absence from all of my now very political work in Washington cloak does ministry. But it was really far more political than it was. Even at that point, religious though, religion played a very big role in it. I had to take a leave of absence at one point, and my wife Cheryl was very much ahead of me in this transformation. And she took her own professional hiatus, I took mine, we went out west to Seattle, where she completed a degree she had left off when she was pregnant with our daughter. And then I decided to do my late in life doctoral work. And in that research, I looked at the problem of the evangelical church in Germany during the rise of Adolf Hitler, and not see us. And I can recall this vividly, I was in the dusty, musty basement of my seminary library in Tacoma, Washington, reading about the declaration by the Yvonne Gelish character, the Evangelical Church of Germany, when Paul outhouse one of the most revered Bible teachers of that day, declared that Adolf Hitler was a gift and miracle from God, sent to the German people to make Germany great again. Wow. And as I read that, I was reflecting on my first encounter with Donald Trump, at the 80th birthday party of the renown evangelical religious broadcaster Pat Robertson, at his party where Donald Trump was, you know, this was before he was a declared candidate for president, but he was working the room filled with evangelical leaders. And he had already tried out his slogan, make America great again. words to that effect. I don't think they had quite developed it yet. But it conveyed that and long story short is, I thought, Oh my God. We are replaying precisely what happened in Germany, the confluence of what they call blood and soil, racial and ethnic and patriotic national identity with Christianity. And that, that somehow this indicated the superior race of humans. And I, it was like, suddenly one of those scenes where all these little fragments of imagery and words and experience start coming together. And I sat there and said all Oh my God, we are perpetrating the same error that brought about one of the greatest human catastrophes. And that's why I say now that for me, Christian Nationalism is the greatest threat that we face. Because once you put religion at the service of a racialized ethnocentric political jogger, not, you remove all of the checks on that, because now that it's been sacralized, it's been made holy or divine. You don't dare question it. You can question politics, partisanship, ideology, but you don't question the mind of God. And when I started hearing, my colleagues say, that God has anointed Donald Trump and raised up the Republican Party for this time. You now remove all accountability, because for evangelicals, and I would say the same largely for Arch Conservative Catholics. The Bible says clearly, that to question God is a form of rebellion and to rebel is, quote, as the sin of witchcraft. In other words, it's satanic. So you remove all checks, all accountability, all questioning. And now you have a regime that can order its followers to dutifully obey. And if they don't, they are defying Almighty God, and therefore are in league with the devil. That's an advantage that no other political, social, even military convention can give. And we see all kinds of examples of it. And it's certainly present here, it was present on January 6, during the insurrection, it's been present in state houses, it is certainly present in the current permutation of Republican politics, on every level, and I would argue, without apology that Donald Trump embodied and will again, if reelected to the presidency, so these are not small marginal things. It is the center of the crisis we're living in. And it boils down to the subject you introduced at the very beginning of this conversation, it all amounts to the worst form of Christian nationalism. Amanda Henderson  48:13What are you doing to counter this rise that we see as a threat,  Rob Schenck48:20I'm very conscious, that I did a lot of damagefor a lot of years. And, and that, you know, that's, I don't say that for sympathy or, or to be maudlin. I'm just conscious of it. I'm very aware of it. And I know I have to do a lot of work, to even try to remediate some of that damage. That was done. And I'm trying to do that. But what I'm doing, one of the first things I'm doing is is speaking, is saying things, I think some people think, you know, what can I ever do? Well, the first thing you can do is speak your conscience. Just speak it sometimes in very small, limited ways doesn't mean you have to mount a podium somewhere or publish a tome or do an interview on some national platform. You don't even have to do a podcast with Amanda Henderson, but it helps. But you know, you can speak during a dinner at your family table. Just venture your conscience in a moment in time. Check and challenge somebody lovingly and respectfully. And even maybe with some apology or humility. Sometimes you win bigger that way, even when you assert how right you are in the moment. You might say, you know, I don't know. I don't know. I may be the only one at this table. But it bothers me and I'll tell you why. And I don't know. I go to sleep If these kinds of things, and it really troubles me, and that's just me, and then let others wrestle with fat, even if it annoys them, and angers them, let them own that and experience it, don't take it from them, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to upset you. Just let them be upset. We're all big grownups. Just even speaking your conscience, I try to do that on the platforms that I have, whether I'm blogging, or I'm speaking from a podium or a stage, or I'm sitting with sometimes the old colleagues from my old worlds. And it's amazing how many people are out there, troubled in a similar way. And all they've been waiting for is somebody to say it. And they will find you somehow they'll find you, even after the family leaves the table, somebody comes up and pulls on you. And says, I was really glad you said that. Because you know, I've been thinking some of the same things. And it's been bothering me too. And maybe they're whispering, but then two of you get talking. And now you can strengthen one another and you start speaking a little louder with a little more volume, because there's two of you now, not one, and then maybe there'll be a third and on and on it goes. So that's the small way of doing it. The other is, of course, we've got to exercise our privileges and use them as best we can. And one of those is voting. And this is not a time to sit anything out. Amanda Henderson  51:36Wonderful, Rob. Thank you so much. So for those who want to hear more about Rob's story, I can't recommend enough the film by Abigail Disney Armor of Light, and Rob's book costly grace, that I will have links to on the show notes for both of those. Rob, it has been a privilege to work with you and to have conversations and to continue to be challenged to challenge some of my own assumptions. Your story is the epitome of complexified every element from your upbringing to your multiple incredible moments of transformation personally and the ways that you navigate that with nuance and grace. So thank you so much for your time today. Thank you. That was Rob shank founder of the Bonhoeffer Institute next time on complexified. You do not want to miss my conversation with the joyful passionate Reverend Dr. Jackie Lewis of middle Church in New York, and author of the book fierce love. This is time for bold declarations of what love looks like benefits about violence is probably not. Until next time, we are all connected. Let's live that way. Thanks so much for joining us for resources and ideas you can take home to your community, visit our website in the show notes. And if anything in this conversation inspired you please share it with a friend. That is the very best way to support us complexified as presented by the Institute for religion, politics and culture at ILF School of Theology, Lex Dunbar is an invaluable member of the team. Also working hard behind the scenes our engineer Andrew Perrella producer Elaine Appleton grant, Tina VISIR and the rest of the crew at podcast allies. I'm Amanda Henderson

With the first two episodes under our belt, Host Amanda Henderson and Iliff graduate student Lex Dunbar dig into the key takeaways they hope our listeners come away with after the first two episodes: 1) The idea that there are clear god-ordained, universal religious teachings about gender, sexuality, and marriage as we know them today is a myth. 2) Regulation of bodies, sexuality, and marriage relationships has been a part of the business of the State since the founding of the U.S. and before. With these two realities in mind, how are we to understand and navigate the deeper questions tied to gender, sexuality, and marriage?

State Representative Sam Park is a native Georgian born and raised by a single mother who instilled in him the importance of faith, family and hard work. Sam's grandparents were refugees from the Korean War who moved to the US in the early 1980's in pursuit of the “American Dream.” After receiving a Fellowship in Civil Rights and Constitutional Law from American University Washington College of Law, Sam earned his Masters in Law in 2014 with a specialization in law, politics and legislation. In December 2014, Sam's mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer. Through her fight against cancer, Sam learned firsthand the importance of having access to healthcare. On a platform of expanding Medicaid to ensure access to healthcare for all Georgians, Sam ran for office as a first-time candidate in 2016 and unseated a three-term Republican chairwoman with a grassroots campaign to become the first Asian American Democrat and first openly gay man elected to the Georgia State Legislature.

Rev. Brandan Robertson is a noted author, pastor, activist, and public theologian working at the intersection of spirituality, sexuality, and social renewal. He is the author of seven books on spirituality, justice, and theology.  Robertson has multiple publications such as TIME Magazine, San Diego Union Tribune, and The New York Times. Named by the Human Rights Campaign as one of the top faith leaders leading the fight for LGBTQ+ equality, Robertson has worked with political leaders and activists worldwide to end conversion therapy and promote the human rights of sexual and gender minorities. Resources: Bills:Nearly 240 anti-LGBTQ bills filed in 2022 so far, most of them targeting trans people10 anti-LGBTQ laws just went into effect. They all target schools.How Onslaught of Bills on LGBTQ Rights Affects Young PeopleResources:LGBT Youth Resources - CDCMy Kid is Gay: Helping Families Understand Their LGBTQ KidsLoving Families - PFLAGBrandan:How Brandan Robertson, a.k.a. the ‘Tik-Tok Preacher,' Is Taking on the Anti-LGBTQ Teachings of His Faith Brandan Robertson - Website 

It's been a ROUGH few years. If you're like me, you feel overwhelmed.Worrying about what we're living through, what scary headline we might see next — and what we can DO about it. Why can't we keep our kids safe from guns? Why are voting rights under attack? Why can't we even talk about abortion, gender, sexuality, or racism? How we got here is not a mystery. And we'll talk about that. (Rob Schenck) "I was there in the middle to late 90s at the tables with Republican Party operatives. When they offered us a deal, and they said, Look, we're with you on abortion, we know you want the reversal of Roe v Wade, we're going to give you that, we're going to deliver that for you. But in exchange, and some of them would be quite crude, they would say, at a time, I can see this, I was seated seated seated at an oak table inside the US Capitol, there were a number of national evangelical leaders at the table, I was there. we're going to take down Roe, we're going to make abortion illegal in this country. But you're gonna have to give us your full support, because there's nowhere else for you to go. Do you understand? And there were literal handshakes across the table, we understand."  I'm Amanda Henderson, and this is my new podcast, Complexified. On Complexified,  we dig into the places where religion and politics collide with real-life, - so we can make real change.   (Robyn Henderson-Espinoza) “The activist theology project was born out of my desire to help people get their hands dirty with the wounds of the world.” (Rep. Sam Park) "When, when it came to running for office, I was asked the question by my pastor at the time, um, you know, what breaks your heart, know what breaks your heart and do something about it, the question mm-hmm because, because, you know, just as faith is dead without deeds love is also meaningless if it's not demonstrated without action."I'll talk with activists and thinkers about the issues tearing our lives up today… the end of Roe v. Wade, climate change, Christian Nationalism,  attacks on trans kids, homelessness, and so much more. As a progressive pastor and the former head of an interfaith advocacy organization, I've preached at pulpits – and protests! I've testified at city council meetings and state capitols. I've shared ideas and activism and questions with people from all walks of life. And I am here to say: Life is not black and white. It's complicated. For too long we have avoided talking about religion and politics. But when we avoid these hard topics, we stay stuck.On Complexifed, we'll navigate the messiness…  With compassion, curiosity, and community. Complexified launches August 11.  Join me.   Follow the show wherever you listen to podcasts. And become a part of this movement to embrace the complexity of real life – and to move forward, together.This podcast is a project of the Institute of Religion Politics & Culture at Iliff School of Theology.