The HR industry is at a crossroads. After a decade+ of “blitz-scaling†companies, HR, talent, and people ops professionals then had to manage the wild upheaval of immediate “wfh†and cultural turmoil of the pandemic years, and now face an uncertain economy that has already seen big booms and busts. So what will it take to construct the next generation of incredible businesses – and where can people leaders have the most business impact?    Hosts Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich have been through it all, the highs and the lows – IPOs, layoffs, executive turnover, board meetings, culture changes, and more. With a lineup of industry vets and experts, Nolan and Kelli break down the nitty-gritty details, trade offs, and dynamics of constructing high performing companies. Through unfiltered conversations that can only happen between seasoned practitioners – Kelli and Nolan dive deep into the kind of leadership-level strategy that often happens behind closed doors. This show is for those who are ready to ditch conventional wisdom and figure out from first principles what works for their culture, business model, and industry, with the goal of building a resilient and enduring company. You’ll come away with real guidance for seeing around corners, building enduring companies, and carving out an impactful career – plus a newly-honed b******t detector. Topics frequently touched on in this season include: building high performing cultures, compensation negotiation, performance reviews, company design, equity, M&As, recruiting the best talent, and how to manage your own psychology as a people leader.
The "HR Heretics" podcast is an incredible source of information and behind-the-scenes stories from Patty McCord, providing a refreshing take on HR, recruiting, and secrets from the C-suite. The questions asked by Kelli and Nolan are excellent, and Patty's honest answers make for an enjoyable listening experience. The podcast is also available to watch on YouTube, adding another layer of enjoyment to the experience. I am eagerly waiting for the next episode.
One of the best aspects of this podcast is the insightful and honest conversations that take place. Patty McCord shares her wealth of knowledge and experiences, providing practical advice for both people and business leaders. It is refreshing to hear unfiltered and hard-hitting conversations that tackle important topics in HR and leadership. The podcast offers valuable lessons for those looking to build resilient and high-performing businesses.
Another great aspect of this podcast is the dynamic duo of Kelli and Nolan. They know their stuff and bring a powerful energy to each episode. Their expertise in HR combined with their engaging interviewing style makes for a captivating listening experience. Unlike other HR podcasts that can be stale or boring, "HR Heretics" keeps you hooked with its informative yet hilarious discussions.
As for any potential drawbacks, it is challenging to find any major weaknesses in this podcast. However, it would be even more beneficial if there were more episodes available. Given the high quality of content provided in each episode, having more episodes would allow listeners to delve deeper into the topics discussed.
In conclusion, "HR Heretics" is a must-listen podcast for anyone interested in HR, leadership, and building high-performing companies. Patty McCord's insights combined with Kelli and Nolan's expertise create an engaging experience filled with practical advice that can be applied in various business contexts. This podcast stands out among others in its field due to its unfiltered conversations and entertaining approach. Don't miss out on this hidden gem!
In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Kelli and Nolan examine the contested impact of AI on entry-level employment, featuring HR articles debating whether traditional junior roles are disappearing or evolving upward. The discussion explores practical AI implementation challenges, organizational inertia, and real-world examples of companies leveraging custom AI solutions for recruitment and decision-making processes.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—RELATED LINKS:Behind the Curtain: Top AI CEO foresees white-collar bloodbath: https://www.axios.com/2025/05/28/ai-jobs-white-collar-unemployment-anthropicJosh Bersin: No, Entry Level Jobs Are Not Going Away:https://joshbersin.com/2025/05/no-entry-level-jobs-are-not-going-away/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:34) The White-Collar Bloodbath vs. Optimistic Takes(01:53) Reality Check: Where's the Actual AI Implementation?(02:35) The Puck Has Moved: Redefining Entry-Level(03:31) Headcount Reality: Flat or Down Since 2022(05:30) Coinbase: The Only Company Actually Doing It(05:58) Sponsors: Planful & Metaview(09:00) Human Inertia: The Real Barrier to AI Adoption(10:47) The Custom GPT Success Story(13:34) Top-Down Mandates Break Through Inertia(14:00) Stop Building Programs, Start Experimenting(16:49) The Biggest Alpha Opportunity Ever(17:23) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
Over the next few weeks, we're bringing you some Heretics 101 content - important refreshers on taboo topics that are core to navigating the CPO seat.For today's episode, we're revisiting an early conversation about how to fire C-suite executives that we had with CJ Gustafson from the Run the Numbers podcast. If you're in this business long enough, you're either going to have to fire an executive, or you're going to be the one getting fired. That's just reality. What started as a simple question turned into one of our most candid discussions about severance packages, golden parachutes, and layering. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH CJ, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINCJ: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:52) The First Steps: When to Exit a C-Suite Executive(02:46) Decision vs. Discussion: Framing the Conversation(05:29) The Fourth Scenario: Growth Outpacing Talent(08:04) Compensation: The Spicy Details(10:36) Pre-Negotiated Severance: Red Flag or Smart Move?(14:50) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview(17:49) Golden Parachutes: The Biggest Payouts(20:47) Equity Acceleration and Exercise Windows(22:35) Rest and Vest: The Perverse Incentive Problem(24:12) Garden Leave Explained(24:51) VCs and CEO Firings: The Reputation Game(27:00) Advice for the Departing Executive(30:13) Controlling the Narrative(31:43) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
Today we're sharing an episode of the 10x Recruiting podcast which features guest Samy Aumar, the People Systems Excellence Manager at Qonto, shares his actual AI workflows live with Nolan Church and Siadhal Magos (CEO of Metaview). The goal of this series is to demonstrate practical and attainable AI implementation, especially for those executives at companies with AI mandates (like Shopify and Fiverr). This episode highlights Samy's use of AI agents which can be built without coding skills in just an afternoon, transforming recruiting workflows from 2-3 day processes to same-day execution.Want more AI demos? Subscribe to The 10x Recruiting podcast from Metaview on YouTube, Apple, or Spotify for more interviews like this one.—LINKS:Samy's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samyaumar/Qonto: https://qonto.com/en—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Introduction & Series Launch(00:34) The AI Sophistication Gap(01:34) Key Takeaways Preview(02:03) No Engineers Needed(03:00) B-Minus Outputs Beat Blank Pages(04:19) Episode Introduction(05:17) From Experimentation to Central Workflow(06:00) Use Case 1: AI-Quality Interview Transcripts(07:00) Introduction to Dust AI Agents(07:43) Job Ad Agent Demonstration(09:00) Building Agents Without Coding(11:33) Uploading Intake Notes(13:15) Time Savings: 3 Days to 24 Hours(14:00) Backend Configuration(17:17) Use Case 2: Market Intelligence Agent(19:08) Specialized vs General AI Research(21:22) Research Results & Accuracy(23:42) Managing AI Expectations(26:00) Parallel Processing & Multitasking(28:22) Qonto's AI Mandate(29:27) Champion-Based Implementation(30:33) Hiring for AI Curiosity(31:38) Product Roadmap Inspiration(33:01) Future Vision: Meta Platforms(33:23) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church talk to Danielle Mathis, Vice President, Global Talent & HRBP of Clari, revealing how fraudsters orchestrated an elaborate recruitment scam, deceiving 12 job seekers with fake offers while harvesting their personal data. The shocking conversation exposes the dark reality of deepfake candidates infiltrating hiring processes and why traditional recruitment methods are dangerously obsolete in our AI-manipulated world.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:
This episode of HR Heretics explores executive search from both sides: being recruited and managing recruitment. Neil Frye, former CPO at Google and Dropbox, and current Chief People Officer at Dotmatics, sits down with Nolan Church and discuss withdrawal strategies, internal versus external search criteria, conscious leadership frameworks, style compatibility, and treating job searches like mutual acquisitions rather than one-sided selections.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:
In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich talk to Cynthia "Baz" Shrauner, former Meta HR executive and current Head of People at Electric Capital. Baz discusses her unconventional career move of voluntarily demoting herself twice to focus on work she genuinely enjoyed rather than traditional leadership roles. She candidly explores the tension between ego and fulfillment, Meta's hiring excesses during COVID and subsequent layoffs, and the complexities of DEI initiatives in corporate environments, offering rare insider perspective on Silicon Valley's operational realities.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:
This segment examines the resurgence of "996" work culture (9 AM to 9 PM, six days weekly) among Silicon Valley's early-stage founders. Nolan analyzes the tension between demanding work schedules and talent attraction, drawing from Glen Evans' LinkedIn critique. He argues these intensive cultures suit certain life stages and career priorities, emphasizing that both high-intensity startups and work-life balance approaches can coexist as conscious trade-offs rather than moral imperatives.NOTE: Kelli is away this week spending time with family*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—Link to Glen's LinkedIn Post: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/glenevans_startups-leadership-workculture-activity-7328919826930814976-pEy7?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop&rcm=ACoAAAWcjXgBb3Jw6dX16PD9lRJSsxfgqVAqZLwTIMESTAMPS:(00:13) Intro(00:31) 996 Culture Invades Silicon Valley(01:23) Greylock's Brutal Take(04:06) Does More Hours Equal More Productivity?(05:35) No Substitute For Time(07:18) My DoorDash Grind Days(08:30) Why I Can't Do It Anymore(10:06) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview(13:06) The 24-Year-Old Founders Story(14:15) "Don't Hire Me, I'm Too Old"(15:30) I Actually Miss Those Days(16:33) Life Is Trade-offs(16:55) The In-Person Only Founder(18:47) Humans Need Pain To Grow(19:12) Rule Breakers Build The Future(19:30) Appreciate Founder Honesty(19:53) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Fidelma Butler, Chief People Officer at Couchbase, a NoSQL cloud database platform company. They talk about how to build effective L&D programs by defining clear leadership standards, focusing resources on senior leaders, and integrating learning into daily work instead of traditional training sessions.Fidelma emphasizes that L&D needs to be agile, continuously evolving, and solve actual business problems rather than existing as a separate "nice-to-have" function.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH Fidelma, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINFidelma: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fidelmabutler/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—LINK/S:Couchbase: https://www.couchbase.com/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:39) The L&D Challenge at Scale(01:19) Tailoring L&D to Your Organization(03:00) Defining Good Leadership(06:00) Creating Leadership Language and Framework(08:00) Why L&D Struggles - Making Squishy Things Tangible(10:00) Meeting People Where They Are(12:00) Optimizing L&D for Top Performers(16:32) Sponsor: Planful | Metaview(19:30) Engagement Surveys Done Right(25:00) When Surveys Conflict with Leadership Vision(28:00) Leaders Teaching Leaders(31:30) Coaching Strategy and Deployment(35:30) The Future of L&D Roles(39:30) Getting Career Development Wrong(42:30) The Promotion Obsession Problem(46:00) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Sally Thornton, founder of Forshay. Sally shares insights on the fractional executive placement business she's built since 2011. Thornton emphasizes that successful fractional work requires consultative skills, boundary management, and rapid trust-building rather than simply scoped part-time arrangements. If you're thinking of going fractional, this is a must-listen discussion.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH SALLY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINSally: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallythornton/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—LINK/S:Forshay: https://forshay.com/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:58) What Forge Does(02:33) Trust Barriers in Fractional Work(03:25) The Relational Approach(04:36) Buyer Mindset Challenges(06:10) Marketplaces vs. Agents(10:00) The Adverse Selection Problem(10:56) The Dirty Secret of Fractional(11:45) Different Interview Approach(13:03) Consulting Background Advantage(13:53) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview(16:57) The Ideal Buyer(17:26) Early vs. Late Stage Company Challenges(18:24) CFOs Make Better Clients(18:59) Transparent Pricing Model(21:41) Hourly Rate Guidelines(22:41) W2 vs. 1099 Considerations(23:27) The Honeymoon Phase(24:52) Managing Client Expectations(26:46) Beyond Filling Open Roles(29:08) The Assessment Process(34:29) Evolution from Interim to Fractional(37:05) Advice for New Fractional Execs(38:15) The Black Hole Complaint(40:11) Career Self-Management(42:11) Sustaining a 15-Year Business(43:06) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
Kelli and Nolan explore the art of professional boundary-setting and etiquette. After Nolan shared a LinkedIn post about declining a meeting with a founder who didn't show up on time to their scheduled call, the hosts examine the delicate balance between protecting one's time and extending grace to others. Their conversation delves into how personal boundaries, stress levels, and professional status influence our responses to professional missteps*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—LINK TO NOLAN'S POST:Community Regulation When People Break Social Etiquette—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:16) When LinkedIn Goes Nuclear: The Time Management Debate(02:05) How Your Day Affects Your Tolerance(04:14) Different Cultures, Different Rules: Looker vs Google Time Ethics(07:48) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview(10:48) The Mother Test: When Accountability Matters Most(11:21) Calendar Hijacking: When Professional Boundaries Get Crossed(13:08) Societal Rot or Personal Standards? The Unwritten Rules Debate(15:34) Finding Your Boundary Line(16:14) What's Your Unwritten Rule?(16:22) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Jared Kleinert, founder of Offsite.com, who shares insights on planning effective team retreats that transform from "nice-to-have" into strategic "must-have" events for remote and hybrid companies. Kleinert emphasizes that successful offsites require intentional planning with clear objectives, arguing that thoughtfully designed retreats drive organizational alignment, build trust between teammates, and provide measurable business value beyond just logistics.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH JARED, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINJared: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredkleinertNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—LINK/S:Offsite: https://marketplace.offsite.com/inquiry?utm=hrheretics—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:47) Offsite's Business Model and Vision(02:17) Remote Work Trends and Offsite Planning(04:49) Elements of a Successful Offsite(09:38) Measuring Offsite ROI and Effectiveness(14:00) Adapting Offsites During Economic Downturns(16:26) Sponsors Planful | Metaview(19:52) Strategic Offsite Planning and Best Practices(26:46) Balancing Team Building and Business Performance(30:34) Executive Offsite Tactics and Trust Building(34:04) Pre-Offsite Preparation and Intention Setting(37:15) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
In this candid "HR Heretics" segment, Nolan and Kelli expose the hidden risks of equity compensation, including Nolan's $8 million DoorDash missed opportunity. They reveal essential questions about share counts, strike prices, and exercise windows that can make or break startup wealth. Their message: equity details are negotiable, but education is your responsibility—not the company's.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:13) Intro(00:52) Being Smart about Equity(01:46) Nolan's $8 Million Mistake(03:05) Understanding Share Count(04:44) Strike Price Explained(06:00) Preferred Price vs. Strike Price(07:43) Net Value Calculation(08:42) Golden Handcuffs Reality(10:31) Exercise Windows(12:00) Negotiation Opportunities(12:26) Tax Implications(14:07) Early Exercise Benefits(15:09) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview(18:09) Additional Negotiation Tactics(19:57) Executive Liquidity Options(21:32) Double Trigger Provisions(23:12) Vesting Schedule Negotiation(24:00) Key Takeaways(24:37) Personal Responsibility(26:08) Resources & Research(27:01) Final Thoughts(27:23) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
In this installment of AI Corner, Siadhal Magos, the CEO of Metaview, and Nolan Church explore the emerging trend of "CEO AI mandates" from the likes of Tobias Lütke and Aaron Levie at Box.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Thatch makes it easy to give your team great healthcare. Save ~$1620 per employee yearly while giving them customizable plans. Visit https://thatch.AI/HR for a demo and receive a $100 gift card.Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINSiadhal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhalNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—LINK/S: The 6 Steps to Master AI: TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:33) The CEO AI Mandate Trend(01:22) Siadhal's Take on AI Mandates(02:35) AI Orchestration as a Career Necessity(03:00) Headcount Management in the AI Era(04:04) AI Leverage vs. Team Size(06:03) Sponsors: Thatch | Planful(08:13) AI Upskilling and Education(09:21) Personal AI Tuition in Organizations(10:18) The Reflexive AI Problem-Solving Approach(11:27) Show and Tell: Learning from Power Users(12:00) Knowing What's Possible as Motivation(13:22) Carrot vs. Stick: Recognizing AI Adoption(14:38) Beyond AI as a Metric: Performance is the Goal(15:34) Wrap(15:58) Sponsor: Metaview This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Kelli and Nolan unpacks the intricacies of 360 reviews from a management perspective, offering pragmatic approaches to synthesizing overwhelming feedback data. They contrast methodical theme-based analysis with modern AI-assisted solutions, emphasizing that meaningful feedback isn't an annual crucible but a continuous conversation peppered with five compliments per criticism.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro (00:36) Dear Heretics - 360 Reviews Question (00:52) Good vs Bad 360 Reviews (06:34) Sponsors - Planful | Metaview (09:34) Using AI for 360 Reviews (11:38) On Using AI Tools (13:27) Sports Analogy Break (14:45) Getting the Ball Rolling (15:22) Continuous Feedback Approach (17:21) 5:1 Positive Ratio (17:59) Explaining the Why in Feedback (19:20) Making Feedback Enjoyable (19:26) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
In this episode, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Troy Sultan who shares his journey from Google to founding Guide, an AI-powered recruiting coordination platform. Sultan challenges traditional recruiting assumptions, arguing modern candidates prefer transparency, speed, and self-service options that let them control their hiring experience.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH TROY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINTroy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/troysultan/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—LINKSGuide: https://www.guide.co/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:10) Troy's Exit from Google(01:44) The Cookie-Based Sales Strategy(02:54) Resource vs. Gem(03:33) Product vs. Go-to-Market Lessons(05:23) Selling to Gem(07:31) The Acquisition Strategy(09:25) Working with Brokers(11:46) Marketing to HR Leaders(14:05) Sponsor: Planful | Metaview(17:05) The Value of Candidate Experience(19:42) Company Priorities vs. Actions(22:20) Guide: AI-Powered Recruiting Coordination(24:35) AI Adoption Challenges(26:18) Authors vs. Editors Framework(27:44) How Aria Works(30:18) World-Class Candidate Experience(31:31) The Self-Service Revolution(34:03) Customer Industries and Use Cases(37:20) Human Experience Across Job Types(40:03) The Cultural Shift to Self-Service(42:47) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
Kelli and Nolan recap their experience at the recent Sapphire People Leader Retreat focused on the evolving role of CPOs in 2025, covering executive alignment, moral boundaries, burnout prevention, and peer networks. They also share a case of corporate identity theft targeting job candidates, highlighting emerging recruitment security challenges.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(02:10) The Role of CPO in 2025(02:20) Corporate Deep Fake Fraud Story(03:30) How the Deep Fake Was Discovered(04:00) FBI Involvement & Next Wave of Fraud(05:10) Pelion VC Domain Fraud Case(05:50) Value of Raw Conversations at Retreat(06:10) No One-Size-Fits-All CPO Role(07:00) Executive Alignment Importance(08:30) Sussing Out Cultural Fit(10:10) Moral Boundaries vs. Running Experiments(12:00) Learning from Radical Ideas at Carta(12:30) "Care a Little Less" Philosophy(14:14) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview(17:14) Avoiding People Leader Burnout(19:20) Building Your Peer Network(21:10) Tactical Work vs. Strategic Leadership(22:20) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
Annie Wickman shares insights from her journey as Google alum, first non-founder at Humu, and now Head of People at Character AI. Annie tackles our hardest questions in an unmissable episode. She covers the tensions between product-market fit and company culture, Character AI's unprecedented Google deal structure, taking the leap from people leader to a VC, and how to rebuild organizational trust.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH ANNIE, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINAnnie: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annie-wickman-3332731/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—LINK/S:Character.AI: https://character.ai/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:17) Experience as First Non-Founder at Humu(03:16) Early Employee Challenges & Responsibilities(05:03) Why Annie Stayed at Humu for Four Years(06:30) Product Market Fit vs. Company Culture(09:05) When to Invest in Culture(11:15) Hiring the Right Leaders for Company Stage(11:40) Maintaining Morale When Company Isn't Winning(12:42) Transparency as Trust Builder(13:47) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview(16:47) Rebuilding Trust Through Honest Communication(19:11) Laszlo's Leadership Philosophy: Stretching People(21:02) Annie's Experience in Venture Capital at Forerunner(23:12) Teaching Founders to Fish vs. Providing Services(24:51) How to Evaluate VC Opportunities(26:09) Understanding VC Economics and Carry Structure(30:10) Character AI's Unprecedented Google Deal(32:56) Rebuilding Post-Acquisition: Product Vision Challenges(34:13) Annie's Perspective on the Deal Timeline(37:31) Post-Deal Reset: Napa Offsite and Hackathon(39:29) Employee Ownership After Acquisition(41:29) Building a New Culture While Keeping the Brand(42:11) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Kelli and Nolan discuss a listener's dilemma about working with ethically questionable founders. They explore the tension between startup rule-bending culture and personal values, advising that leadership requires either full alignment with founders or graceful departure.They reflect on the impossibility of compartmentalizing personal trauma, the importance of workplace support networks, and practical advice for both those experiencing crises and colleagues supporting them.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:13) Intro(00:52) Listener's Moral Dilemma with CEO (02:46) The Gamble With Me Philosophy (03:07) All In or All Out Leadership (04:09) Separating Morality from Alignment (04:38) The Danger of Staying When Misaligned (06:25) Toxic Without Knowing It (08:06) Modern Approach to Leadership Exits (08:53) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview (11:48) Is This Normal Startup Life? (12:07) Understanding Startup Rule-Bending (14:00) The Entrepreneurial Mindset (15:12) The Popsicle Stand Example (16:46) Building Your Leadership Brand (17:27) Working With vs Around Founders (18:19) The Lemonade Stand Rule (19:36) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
HR Heretics welcomes back guest Brett Queener, Managing Director at Bonfire Ventures, for a check in on the current venture landscape.Fresh from raising a $245 million fund, Queener explores how AI is fundamentally changing software companies, emphasizing the need for rapid iteration and questioning traditional playbooks. He shares thoughtful perspectives on evaluating AI startups beyond the hype, the changing nature of talent requirements, and why successful companies must embrace a "change economy" mentality to thrive.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH BRETT, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINBrett: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brettqueener/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—LINKS:Bonfire Ventures: https://www.bonfirevc.com/—OTHER RECOMMENDED LINKS:The Change Economy: —TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro (01:07) Bonfire's $245M New Fund (03:24) Today's Frothy AI Market (06:30) The 11X AI SDR Case Study (08:18) AI's Revolutionary Impact on Products (11:12) First-Time vs. Repeat Founders in AI (14:39) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview(17:38) Rethinking How Companies Operate (19:43) Hiring in the AI Era (22:58) Teams Getting Younger and AI Native (25:04) The Future of Junior Roles (28:22) The 11X Controversy Explained (30:29) Evaluating What's Real in AI Companies (33:29) Vibey Revenue and Real Value (37:00) Product Viability and Renewals (39:42) Assessing Founders and Products (42:10) The Case for In-Office Collaboration (44:31) The "Holy S**t" Product Moment (46:09) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
In this installment of AI Corner, Siadhal Magos, Metaview CEO, and Nolan Church dissect Anthropic's groundbreaking paper “Tracing the thoughts of a large language model” released on March 27, 2025. They explore surprising findings: LLMs plan ahead rather than simply predicting next tokens, think across multiple languages simultaneously, and often present explanations that satisfy humans rather than reflecting their actual reasoning processes.The conversation highlights the paradox of developing powerful AI systems without understanding their workings, raising implications for deployment, safety, and the "intelligence on tap" paradigm reshaping our technological relationship. We should all be paying attention.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINSiadhal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhal/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—LINKS:Anthropic's featured paper: https://www.anthropic.com/news/tracing-thoughts-language-model Metaview: https://www.metaview.ai/—OTHER RECOMMENDED LINKS:Mercor: https://mercor.com/—TIMESTAMPS(00:13) Intro(00:45) Anthropic's Mind-Blowing Paper (01:37) LLMs Think Across Languages (02:04) Faked Reasoning in AI Models (02:28) AI Hallucinations Explained (03:00) First Paragraph Reveals Uncertainty (05:18) Beyond Next Token Prediction (07:23) Evaluating LLMs Without Understanding (08:44) More Human Than Software (10:05) Why You Should Experiment With AI (11:13) The Airplane Analogy (12:26) Safety Concerns for Future AI (12:54) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview(16:27) Dario Amodei on AI Self-Policing (18:05) OpenAI's $300B Valuation (19:33) Intelligence on Tap (22:02) Retraining Google Habits (24:35) Agentic AI & Reinforcement Learning (27:15) Human Training for AI Models (30:25) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
Today we're excited to introduce you to an episode of 10x Recruiting, a podcast from Metaview hosted by our very own Nolan Church. 10x Recruiting is focused on conversations with top talent leaders to help listeners build world-class teams and stay ahead in the evolving recruiting landscape.Today's guest is Arthur Matuszewski, who shares insights from his diverse career at Bridgewater, Better.com, and his firm Carrara. He emphasizes intellectual honesty, focusing on work outputs rather than titles, and avoiding false negatives in hiring. Nolan says he's one of the most insightful guests ever.Matuszewski advocates for evaluating talent based on actual value creation rather than pedigree, and stresses the importance of adapting recruitment strategies to each org's unique context rather than relying on standardized playbooks.Head to The 10x Recruiting Podcast on YouTube, Apple, or Spotify for more interviews like this one.YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@10x_Recruiting_podApple: Spotify: —LINKS:Arthur's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/arthurmatuszewski/Carrara: https://www.carrara.is/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:53) Episode preview (05:51) Arthur's career journey overview (07:53) Lessons learned at Bridgewater (10:41) Recruiting for teams vs individuals (12:35) Bridgewater's culture of experimentation (16:47) High attrition rate and false negatives (23:22) Better.com's rise and viral moment (28:02) Defining intellectual honesty (30:08) Carrara and focusing on the work (37:56) Balancing productivity with thinking time (40:03) Avoiding sunk costs in talent decisions (43:31) Carrara's process for delivering winners (45:43) Showing founders what the market is saying (47:19) Internal vs external talent perspectives (51:58) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
In this episode, Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church are joined by Lucy Adams, founder of Disruptive HR. Adams critiques traditional HR's rigid policies, advocating instead for judgment-based approaches that treat employees as grown-ups. The conversation explores challenges facing HR business partners, the evolution of DEI initiatives, and how organizations can create environments where people thrive through high-trust cultures, rather than compliance-driven systems.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Thatch makes it easy to give your team great healthcare. Save ~$1620 per employee yearly while giving them customizable plans. Visit https://thatch.AI/HR for a demo and receive a $100 gift card.Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH LUCY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINLucy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lucykadams/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—LINKS:Disruptive HR: https://disruptivehr.com/Lucy's article “HR Business Partner: The toughest role in HR?”: https://disruptivehr.com/hr-business-partner-the-toughest-role-in-hr/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:17) Lucy's Background and BBC Experience(03:08) Personal Connection and BBC Stories(04:25) Origins of Disruptive HR(07:00) Evolution of HR and Post-COVID Workplace Changes(11:39) Trust and Autonomy in Workplace Decisions(16:56) Trust as Foundation for Business Success(17:32) Sponsors: Thatch | Planful(20:27) Progressive HR Policies and Examples(23:53) HR Business Partner Role Challenges(25:13) Sponsor: Metaview(27:55) Messy Reality of Great HR Work(31:00) HR's Focus on Process vs. Real Impact(33:26) Current HR Trends and Community Concerns(35:56) DEI Evolution and Conversation Approaches(45:53) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Kelli and Nolan discuss the profound impact of personal crises on work life. They share vulnerable stories about caring for ill family members—Kelli's mother's recent stage four cancer diagnosis and Nolan's father-in-law's illness and passing. They reflect on the impossibility of compartmentalizing personal trauma, the importance of workplace support networks, and practical advice for both those experiencing crises and colleagues supporting them.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Thatch makes it easy to give your team great healthcare. Save ~$1620 per employee yearly while giving them customizable plans. Visit https://thatch.AI/HR for a demo and receive a $100 gift card. Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro (02:24) Impact of Crisis on Professional Life (03:19) Becoming a Parent to Your Parent (03:41) The Adrenaline Phase vs. Reality Setting In (04:18) Nolan's Story of His Father-in-Law (05:47) How Crisis Changes Your Perspective (07:11) The Impossibility of Compartmentalizing Life (08:02) The Importance of Strong Work Relationships (09:21) The Speed of Life-Changing Events (10:01) Gaining Wisdom Through Difficulty (10:18) The Value of Having a Coach (12:22) Using Your Support System Effectively (13:19) Finding a New Balance in Crisis (14:10) Practical Ways to Help Someone in Crisis (14:49) Sponsors: Thatch | Planful(17:00) Navigating the Healthcare System (18:03) The Critical Need for Medical Advocacy (19:35) How Crisis Impacts Your Work Priorities (20:17) Asking the Right Questions When Supporting Others (21:04) Sponsor: Metaview This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Nolan and Kelli discuss recent HR tech industry drama involving Rippling and Deel, where a "spy" from Deel allegedly infiltrated Rippling to steal competitive information.They describe Rippling's elaborate "honeypot" trap to catch Deel's corporate spy and how this incident exemplifies the evolution of business conflicts from private disputes to public social media spectacles, highlighting workplace transparency's growing complexity.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:13) Deel and Rippling Drama(05:00) Rippling's Allegation: Spy in Dublin Office(06:19) The 'Honeypot' Trap Explanation(07:48) "That's Not a Honeypot, That's a Mousetrap"(09:00) Corporate Espionage More Common Than People Think(12:00) Going Public on Twitter as the "Master Stroke"(14:00) Sponsor: Metaview(16:16) New Era of CEOs Going to War(17:15) The Next Phase: Everything Is Public Now(19:24) The Spy Locks Himself in the Bathroom(22:04) Sunlight Is the Best Disinfectant This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
Nolan and Kelli welcome back friend of the pod David Hanrahan, who's just 60 days into his new role as CHRO at SolarWinds. The conversation kicks off with candid reflections on the Transform 2025 conference - the good, the bad, and what's missing from HR conferences today. They also dig into David's challenges and learnings transitioning to his new role, and a discussion on the changes coming for L&D initiatives.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH DAVID, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINDavid: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidhanrahan/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—LINKS:Solarwinds: https://www.solarwinds.com/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Introduction(00:37) David's Take on Transform(03:33) The Grittiness of HR(05:42) Value of In-Person Relationships(08:50) Transform's Community Session(10:36) Blackjack, Craps, and the Games(11:28) David's New Role at SolarWinds(15:35) Sponsor: Metaview(17:29) G Suite vs Microsoft Outlook(18:00) Juggling New Job Responsibilities(20:35) Katie Burke's Self Reflection(22:18) Painful Changes and Lessons from Multiple CHRO Roles(25:03) The Weird Moment for L & D(28:55) Effective Leadership Development(33:41) David's BHAG: Leadership Development(35:29) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
In another edition of 'Dear Heretics' Nolan and Kelli tackle talent calibration sessions. They address how HR needs to balance facilitation versus providing opinions and establish clear processes beforehand. They explore calibration's dual purpose: ensuring consistent evaluation standards and developing forward-looking talent plans. Above all, calibration needs to be an iterative process requiring transparency and company-wide understanding to avoid becoming toxic or misunderstood.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/hereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:13) Intro(00:56) The Fine Line of HR Facilitation(01:46) Setting Process Rules Before Calibration(03:35) HR Should Opine with Objectivity(05:47) The New York Times Test(06:26) Sponsor: Metaview(08:20) Purpose of Calibration Sessions(09:37) Importance of Forward-Looking Discussions(10:35) Calibration Process Flow(12:16) Transparency Across the Company(13:10) Building the Calibration Muscle(14:27) Real-World Implementation(15:30) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
Kelli and Nolan are joined by Roxanne Petraeus, CEO of Ethena, to talk about her journey from the US army to founding an HR tech company. She shares her views on leadership, the distinction between training and learning, and building a culture of intellectual meritocracy in a remote-first environment. The conversation explores how compliance training evolved from her military experiences, covers the role of Chief People Officers, and reveals how military discipline shaped her approach to building high-performance tech cultures without superficial perks.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—
Friend of the pod Colleen McCreary discusses some big news: her return to a CPO role at a remote-first public company (Confluent). She shares insights on navigating the first 90 days, organizational change, implementing a company-wide initiative to eliminate unnecessary processes, and gearing up for lots of 1:1s. Colleen, Kelli, and Nolan discuss transparent leadership, building community in remote environments, and bringing humanity to workplace policies—all while balancing the challenges of joining an established company as an executive with a public reputation*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—
Nolan and Kelli discuss tech job search strategies, emphasizing proactive networking over mass applications., and recommend targeted outreach with concise value propositions that highlight business impact. They stress building relationships both inside and outside your company, maintaining professional connections, and adapting to a job market that increasingly demands quantifiable contributions.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—
Nolan and Kelli talk about Jamie Dimon's leaked critique of remote work while examining the collision between post-pandemic workplace expectations and corporate realities. They explore leadership's critical role in employee engagement, the shifting talent marketplace, and how organizational culture ultimately determines whether flexibility becomes an asset or liability in modern workplaces.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—
In this installment of AI Corner, Siadhal Magos, the CEO of Metaview, and Nolan Church discuss 'agentic AI' in a practical and relevant way for HR pros. They dig into what agentic AI is today vs future expectations and debate current tool limitations. They also share their current AI tool stack, workflows, and their overall approach to viewing AI like a 'junior colleague'.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—
Kelli and Nolan talk about candidate feedback during hiring processes and debate whether companies should provide feedback to rejected candidates, especially those who've invested significant time in interviews and assignments. They discuss recruiter bandwidth challenges and liability concerns while advocating for human-centered feedback approaches, especially for onsite candidates, plus advice on requesting feedback gracefully.*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics' questions: hrheretics@turpentine.co**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics—KEEP UP WITH ANNA, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINKelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:13) The Core Issue: Lack of Feedback After Extensive Interviews(01:00) The Reality of Lean Teams and Bandwidth Constraints(02:15) The Liability Concern: Company Policy Against Sharing Feedback(03:00) A Shift in Perspective: Treating Candidates With Respect(04:06) The Importance of Feedback After On-Site Interviews(04:20) Setting Candidate Expectations: Establishing a "Contract"(05:49) Clarity of Identity: Defining Company Approach to Feedback(06:55) The Long-Term Impact of Thoughtful Candidate Experience(07:13) A Practical Approach: Phone Calls for On-Site Candidates(08:47) Sponsor: Metaview(10:41) Importance of Live Feedback(11:01) Worst-Case Scenarios and the Skill of Giving Feedback(12:41) Recruiters as People People - Navigating Difficult Conversations(13:29) The Need for Recruiters to Develop Hard Conversation Skills(14:00) HR BP skills on the recruiting team(14:44) The Candidate's Perspective: Managing Expectations(15:32) How to Ask for Feedback(16:28) Expanding Your Network and Paying it Forward(18:11) Don't Underestimate How Small the World Is(18:34) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
Iain Roberts, Global Head of Employee Experience at Airbnb, discusses experimenting in HR in 2025, the design-thinking reshaping organizational structures, and why CEO Brian Chesky's ‘Founder Mode' is much misinterpreted. Iain covers innovative approach to flexible work, cross-functional alignment, and treating employee programs as evolving products requiring continuous refinement.*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics' questions: hrheretics@turpentine.co**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics—LINK/S:Airbnb: https://www.airbnb.com/—REFERENCE/S:NVIDIA's Jensen Huang says that IT will ‘become the HR of AI agents':https://fortune.com/2025/01/09/nvidia-ceo-jensen-huangt-take-over-hr-ai-agents/—KEEP UP WITH IAIN, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINIain: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertsiain/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro (00:13) From Designer to HR Leader: Iain's Journey (01:15) "Everything Needs to Be Designed" Philosophy (03:09) Designing Systems of People and Structures (04:47) Bringing Design Thinking to HR at Airbnb (08:03) Airbnb's One Roadmap Approach: 7,000 People, One Focus (07:21) Top-Down vs. Bottom-Up Culture & Innovation(10:26) Tactically Transforming an HR Team with Design Thinking(11:47) Treating HR as Products and Services (13:14) The Future of HR Product Management (14:36) Sponsor: Metaview(16:30) Founder Mode: Misinterpretations and Brian Chesky's Approach(23:00) Airbnb's Shift to a Single Product Roadmap(26:54) Design-Led Culture and Attention to Detail at Airbnb(28:48) Prototyping & Iterating with Human Experiences: Challenges(30:50) Airbnb's Gathering Strategy and Flexible Work Philosophy(33:48) Airbnb's Contrarian Stance on Remote Work (Live & Work Anywhere)(39:45) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
Anna Binder, Head of People at Asana, shares her journey as an HR leader, her approach to board membership at CultureAmp, and her philosophy on talent management. The discussion covers the nitty gritty of preparing and contributing in board meetings, long-term DEI initiatives, and the importance of authentic leadership in HR, particularly highlighting the value of playing the long game in organizational development.*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics' questions: hrheretics@turpentine.co**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics—LINK/S:Asana: https://asana.com/—KEEP UP WITH ANNA, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINAnna: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annabinder/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:47) Becoming a Board Member at Culture Amp(05:33) The Importance of Taking Calls and Building Relationships(07:10) How to Prepare for and Participate Effectively on a Board(11:48) Examples of "Operating" vs. Asking the Right Questions as a Board Member(14:57) Sponsor: Metaview(16:57) Anna's Experience Building MuleSoft(19:00) Navigating Disagreements and Being "Invited to Exit"(21:12) Sharing the News and the Importance of Transparency(22:50) Finding the Right Fit and the Role of Values(25:57) Joining Asana(26:26) Ensuring Alignment During the Interview Process(29:35) How to Maintain Stamina and Interest Over a Long Tenure(31:14) Examples of Attention to Detail and Values Alignment at Asana(31:46) Examining the CEO's Calendar During Interviews(33:05) Anna's Controversial Recruiting Philosophy(33:16) Recruiting Top Talent(35:42) DEI at Asana: Long-Term Vision and Business Outcomes(39:38) The Importance of Being in the Right Room(40:09) Playing the Long Game on DEI(41:59) Encouraging People to Enter the Field(44:31) Outro This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
Nolan and Kelli talk about retaining top-performing employees (the crucial 1%) and emphasize that compensation alone isn't sufficient; leaders must combine verbal recognition, proactive compensation strategies, transparency, and genuine appreciation. They stress the importance of eliminating compensation anxiety for these key employees and building long-term relationships, and argue that thoughtful, personalized treatment of top talent ultimately benefits both the individual and organization.Email us your ‘Dear Heretics' questions: hrheretics@turpentine.co**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics—KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Introdu(00:13) Defining the Top 1%(00:57) Shifting Trends in Job Offers and Compensation(02:04) Appreciating Top Talent(03:01) The Importance of Appreciation Beyond Monetary Compensation(03:56) Balancing Appreciation and Competitive Compensation(05:02) Transparency in Compensation Decisions(07:49) Sponsor: Metaview(09:43) Four Pillars: Appreciation, Thoughtfulness, Proactivity, and Transparency(12:08) The Expectation of Transparency(12:43) Long-Term Career Involvement with Top Performers(14:21) Reciprocity in Employer-Employee Relationships(14:53) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
Nolan and Kelli talk about AI's role in hiring processes, sparked by Anthropic's policy against using AI in job applications. They explore the tension between AI as a valuable tool and its potential for interview deception, ultimately advocating for a more integrated approach where candidates openly demonstrate their AI usage skills rather than attempting to restrict or hide it.Email us your ‘Dear Heretics' questions: hrheretics@turpentine.co**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics—KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—RECOMMENDATIONS FOR THIS PODCAST:Gizmodo Article: “Anthropic Wants You to Use AI—Just Not to Apply for Its Jobs”https://gizmodo.com/anthropic-wants-you-to-use-ai-just-not-to-apply-for-its-jobs-2000558490Anthropic: https://www.anthropic.com/Final Round AI: https://www.finalroundai.com/Sora: https://openai.com/sora/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:26) Initial Reactions and Perspectives to Anthropic's Policy(02:23) AI as a Tool vs. Replacement for Human Skills(03:36) AI-Powered Interview Cheating.(04:11) Practical AI Usage Throughout the Application Process(06:21) Sponsor: Metaview(08:15) Authenticity vs. AI Assistance(10:09) Polarities and Gradients of AI Usage(11:16) The Problem of Cheating and the "Open Book" Interview Approach(12:30) Using AI During In-Person Interviews(13:33) Adapting to AI in Hiring and Education(14:18) Audience Engagement and Future Solutions(15:03) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
Entrepreneur Jesse Tinsley - founder of Employer.com and other successful tech ventures - discusses his consortium's bid to acquire TikTok alongside MrBeast. The dialogue with Kelli and Nolan examines the philosophical and practical implications of executive compensation reduction during corporate restructuring, while illustrating how digital discourse can evolve into substantive debate when moved from social media to direct dialogue.*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics' questions: hrheretics@turpentine.co**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics—LINK/S:Employer.com: https://www.employer.com/—KEEP UP WITH JESSE, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINJesse: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessetinsleyNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:55) Update on the TikTok Acquisition(02:25) Motivation Behind Acquiring TikTok with Mr. Beast(04:38) How TikTok Fits into Jesse's Business Portfolio(07:07) Discussion on Executive Compensation and Layoffs(10:28) Specifics on Executive Salary Cuts(11:00) Sponsor: Metaview(12:57) Executive Compensation(15:34) The Importance of Leadership Accountability(18:16) Cultural Impact of Executive Pay Cuts(19:12) Wrap(21:05) Outro This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
Adam Ward (founding partner, Growth by Design) discusses the current landscape of executive hiring in people/talent roles, particularly the prevalence of "pocket listings" - positions filled through private networks rather than public postings. He offers insights into what CEOs value in people leaders (business-driven mindset, operational excellence), how candidates can effectively navigate professional networks, and the importance of structured hiring processes. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—
Kelli and Nolan examine the art of building authentic company values. Through real-world experiences, they reveal the methodical process of transforming abstract principles into tangible organizational behavior that drives meaningful cultural change.*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics' questions: hrheretics@turpentine.co**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics—KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:13) Discussion on Company Values(01:30) Importance of Leadership and Top Performer Alignment(02:19) Company Core Values and Honesty(02:43) Scaling Culture in Founder-Led Companies(03:46) Making the Intangible Tangible(04:23) Revealed vs. Stated Character(04:40) The Benefit of Outsourcing the Process of Developing Company Values(05:54) Company Values Are Always Evolving(06:27) The Goldilocks Approach(07:48) Sponsor: Metaview(09:52) Quick Process to Rough Draft(10:20) Doordash Example(11:56) Pendo's Working Committee and Bottoms Up Approach(13:19) The Importance of Timing(14:25) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
Kelli and Nolan tackle a listener's frustration with a painfully slow reorg process, diving into the eternal tension between perfect planning and actually running the business. When HR and legal reviews stretch into week four, should you keep waiting for perfection or pull the trigger? Towards the end of the episode, Kelli and Nolan get into brass tacks offering tactical timelines to execute a reorg based on hypothetical examples.*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics' questions: hrheretics@turpentine.co **For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/ HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics —KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/ Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/ —Timestamps:(00:00) Intro(00:19) The Reorg Dilemma(00:56) Challenges in Big Companies(03:00) Balancing Perfection and Speed(04:43) HR & Legal Risk(08:55) Sponsor: Metaview(10:49) Employment Lawyers' Limitations(12:33) Intellectual Trap(13:28) Workshopping Different Scenarios(15:23) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
Tom Clayton, COO of Peek, shares his unconventional playbook for building world-class teams. From his data-driven "employee attribute chart" to his rule of "don't be a brand b***h," Tom breaks down how he's scaled companies from 50 to 2000+ employees.He dishes on everything from why he sends champagne to candidates' hotel rooms to why he encourages employees to quit and start their own companies.If you're listening on podcast platforms, be sure to check out our Substack or YouTube channel to see Tom's framework slides onscreen:Substack: https://hrheretics.substack.com/p/smart-hiring-with-tom-claytonYouTube: Smart Hiring with Tom Clayton*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—
Kelli and Nolan unpack the delicate art of layering – that awkward moment when someone gets a new boss – while calling out the pitfalls of secret searches and celebrating the often-forgotten heroes of early startup days. Equal parts tactical advice and therapy session for growing companies.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—
Think AI is just about robots summarizing your emails? Think again. Metaview co-founder and CEO Siadhal Magos reveals how AI's real impact in an org is making sense of workplace conversations, performance reviews, and all the messy human stuff that HR deals with.Start recognizing the opportunities presented by ‘unstructured data' to transform HR from subjective guesswork to data-driven decisions, without losing the human touch.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—
Nolan and Kelli talk about the culture shock of moving from corporate behemoths to the startup wild west. They share battle-tested wisdom on surviving the transition - from mastering the art of founder relationships to embracing the (sometimes brutal) transparency demands of startup employees. Along the way, they reveal how corporate luxuries like two-hour gym breaks get replaced by the exhilarating but exhausting reality of building something from scratch.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—
Kelli and Nolan start with a heartfelt discussion about LA fires before diving into the art of handling CEO mandates for attrition targets. They reveal insider strategies for transforming harsh directives into meaningful performance frameworks, while warning against becoming the dreaded "person of no."*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—
Colin Zima, former Looker exec turned Omni CEO, reveals how he runs a 65-person Series B startup with no HR or G&A team. Learn why he believes in minimal bureaucracy, why founders should do the "dirty work," and what really breaks after a Google acquisition.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—
From Square to Nextdoor, Bryan Power reveals why copying Big Tech's playbook might be your biggest mistake.Find out why Square banned hiring from the payments industry while building a payments company. Discover how conventional wisdom about senior talent can become startup kryptonite and why the safe choice isn't always the smart choice.Bryan Power is a veteran Silicon Valley People executive who's shaped talent strategy at tech giants like Google and Yahoo, built Square from 150 employees, and now leads People at Nextdoor where he champions innovative approaches to hiring and leadership development.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—
Happy New Year from HR Heretics!Together, we've built something extraordinary: a community of forward-thinking HR professionals who dare to question the status quo, welcome straight talk, and thrive on healthy debate.In today's special year-end episode, we're sharing some of our top moments, most controversial takes, and the conversations that simply blew our minds with new approaches to people, hiring, managing, and shaping the culture of high performing teams. Think of this as your ultimate HR Heretics highlight reel – where spicy takes meet practical wisdom.So whether you're a longtime heretic or just discovering us today, buckle up. Come January 2nd 2025, we'll be back with new guests.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics—KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—LINKS:Molly Graham: https://open.spotify.com/episode/3gegNOB1RSWuKofaWcjYWS?si=AGhfhyhgRsu8LSUlN7wtjgTomas Tungusz: https://open.spotify.com/episode/1B4aYWnV9pJkcQuCgq1tTy?si=d-iRpEMrQX62JwiKQi9nGgVijay Pendakur: https://open.spotify.com/episode/4ccUUyNPVUjBEc3V9h1SEf?si=LLhIXfbkSMaWaIyPnfHmfAPatty McCord: https://open.spotify.com/episode/2nHxmrGnGFJ23ropYPc4YE?si=9WzJ1VdnQjS4vlS7kbBy8AAndy Price: https://open.spotify.com/episode/2LmfYrgz58M1bjU4kj8t7i?si=UpCAZwNkR_SVg-29AY-_ZgColleen McCreary: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0WuLzUYeDaPIsOTbtTCZFD?si=EnzuH3v-S9SO1zTCBvBwngBrett McQueener: https://open.spotify.com/episode/666pMzHni919QMMhe4NPWQ?si=vRyeGi3XSEuHaEjKZQFVewMatt Oberhart: https://open.spotify.com/episode/6lYnLlZrBGNZOdw97NoElB?si=vwJTyZp4SIyQzgDQY6eOFALJ Brock: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0Jj5U59L703HKVZNg9QJef?si=5Oz5FpnDT9yHO2YekmY9jwDHH: https://open.spotify.com/episode/6AD2rSoIi9gF0WlZ3gqoz3?si=Km774GZJSraHW4ljuI0f-gPeterson Conway: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5jQ2TsSMMmlWuJ3vAayHoR?si=SdnrYwnZQQSo4f5tR2XLfw--TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:15) Molly Graham(00:53) Tomas Tungusz(02:03) Vijay Pendakur(03:15) Patti McCord(04:44) Andy Price(05:50) Colleen McCreary(06:41) Brett McQueener(07:49) Matt Oberhart(08:44) LJ Brock(09:46) DHH(10:56) Peterson Conway(12:21) Nolan's Best(14:14) Kelli's Best(15:02) Wrap(15:08) Sponsor: Metaview This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com
It's been quite a year! Kelli and Nolan bare it all in their 2024 wrap-up. Get their must-read books, binge-worthy podcasts, and raw personal journeys - including Kelly's identity crisis and Nolan's toughest year yet. Plus, hear why 2025 might be the year to go 'risk on' and why your company's headcount could be holding you back. No fluff, just real talk from two HR leaders who've been there.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—
Are digital workers coming for your job? In this episode, Metaview CEO Siadhal Magos— our resident AI expert— breaks down the rise of AI-powered SDRs and what it means for the future of work. From 11x.ai's $75M raise to replace human sales reps, to broader implications for recruiting and tech roles, discover why VCs are betting big on AI labor. This is a candid discussion about job displacement, productivity gains, and why getting your hands dirty with AI might be your best career move.Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business partners – and how you can, too.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—
Ever wondered why your HR team feels like a bunch of separate countries? Tune in as Kelli and Nolan reveal why mixing your People Ops like finger paint might be the secret sauce to scaling – and why that messy feeling means you're actually crushing it.Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business partners – and how you can, too.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.—
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