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Are you and your spouse on the same page when it comes to what retirement is going to look like? If not, it's time to talk. Listen to this episode where we'll explore why it's so important for couples to have detailed conversations about their finances and retirement futures. We'll cover exactly what you need to discuss, and how to handle any disagreements.   Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com   Disclaimer: Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is an SEC Registered Investment Advisor. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. The topics and information discussed during this podcast are not intended to provide tax or legal advice. Investments involve risk, and unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Be sure to first consult with a qualified financial advisor and/or tax professional before implementing any strategy discussed on this podcast. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Insurance products and services are offered and sold through individually licensed and appointed insurance agents.     Mark: Are you and your spouse on the same page when it comes to what retirement is going to look like? If not, it's time to talk. So check into this episode where we explore why it's important for couples to have detailed conversations about not only their finance, but their retirement futures and their dreams, this week on Retirement Planning, Redefined.   What's going on? Welcome into the podcast. Thanks for hanging out with John, Nick, and myself as we talk investing, finance and retirement. And we're going to go to couples therapy this week here on the podcast a little bit, or maybe we'll make it more manly, I guess, and call it a team sport.   However you want to look at it, you want to be on the same page with your spouse, with your loved one when it comes to retirement. I wanted to talk a little bit about that this week, guys, to see how many people generally are on the same page by the time they sit down with professionals like yourselves, financial professionals, or if it's happening a lot in real time, right in front of you. So we'll get into it this week.   What's going on, John? How are you bud?   John: Hey, I'm doing good. How are you?   Mark: Doing pretty good, hanging in there. Looking forward to chatting about this a little bit.   Nick, I hope you're well.   Nick: All good.   Mark: All good as usual. Well, that's very good.   Nick: Good start to the season for the bills, so I'm happy.   Mark: All right, well there you go.   Nick: It's early. It's early, but...   Mark: My lions, my lions are all right for right now. We'll see. I don't have a lot of hope. 40 years doesn't bode well when you have one good season in 40 years, but we'll see.   Nick: I get it, [inaudible 00:01:33].   Mark: All right, so let's dive into this couple stuff here. Why is it important for couples to work together on their retirement plan? I mean, you come in, somebody sits down for the first time with you guys for a consultation, and they're just not even remotely on the same page. That's got to be a bit more problematic, yeah?   Nick: Yeah. Not being remotely on the same page is tricky. I would almost say we probably, at least for John and I, we probably don't run into it too much where they're completely on separate pages.   Mark: Well, that's good.   Nick: I would say that there tend to be different ways that they think about money and kind of communicate about money. To be honest, that's one of the reasons that I would say that John and I like working together as a team with clients is because oftentimes one of us will kind of pick up more on the vibe that one of the people in the relationship is on, and then vice versa the other way around.   And so I'd say it's pretty rare that people in a couple tend to think about finances the same way. Even though they might end up having similar goals on the backside, they kind of attack it a little bit differently. And really it's, I think we joke sometimes, I think at this point we're 80% therapist, 20% financial advisors.   Mark: Right.   Nick: And really it's just trying to get people closer to the same page, and realizing that a lot of the things that they're talking about are pretty similar and they're just going about different ways to attack that.   Mark: Well, John, to expand on that, when somebody sits down for the first time, do you guys, if they haven't really discussed some of those big issues, is it important that they maybe try to knock some of that out before they come in to see an advisor? Or does it not really matter as long as it's getting done?   John: Yeah, I don't think it really matters. I think sometimes they're not even really sure exactly what to be knocking out prior. So to delay meeting with someone just to try to figure out, "Hey, are we on the same page?", I don't think makes sense. I think what tends to happen in our meetings is we'll ask some questions that kind of get them thinking a little differently. Like, "Oh, I didn't think about that." And ultimately, I think what we do when we do our planning, they tend to have some things come out and then they tend to kind of understand where the other one's coming from and that kind of lines up.   Mark: Yeah. Well, I mean, I talk to advisors all across the country and I certainly hear stories often about people saying, one person will say something and the spouse will go, "Since when? I never heard of that."   Nick: It definitely happens sometimes for sure. I would say almost that tends to be more on the lifestyle side of things.   Mark: Okay, all right.   Nick: Versus almost purely financial.   Mark: Like "I want to go scuba diving in every major ocean or something." And the other one's like, "What?"   Nick: Yeah, when the husband pulls, "I want to drive across country in the RV" card, that's where I've seen a lot of the sideway looks where... My parents are a good example, it's like my dad doesn't like to drive to Publix, but then he said he wanted to drive-   Mark: Across the nation.   Nick: ... In an RV, because that's going to be more relaxing. And I remind him that a thousand miles is a lot worse than five. So there's things like that absolutely. How to spend that time, or even just the extra time together. I've almost seen it where it tends to be a little bit of a smoother process for couples when one person retires first, and maybe there's a year or two lag, where they kind of have a little bit of a staggering on spending an extra 50 hours a week together, which can be a little bit of a shock.   Mark: Sure, yeah, it's a totally different animal. Yeah.   Nick: Yeah, a totally different ballgame. So I would say from at least my experience with clients, it tends to be more in the lifestyle side of things. What I've seen most often with couples are it's rare that it's a 50/50 input on finances.   A lot of times I'll see it where one person might be a little bit more strategic on expenses, and then the other one might be a little bit more focused on the actual investments, things like that. But they end up being kind of having the same goal or outlook, but the lifestyle and how they're going to spend their time in retirement and how much they're willing to spend to do those sorts of things tends to be a little bit different.   Mark: All right, John, well let me throw this one your way. So my wife and I are not usually on the same page when it comes to certain different things in a relationship, like most couples. And when it comes to risk, we are completely different.   So how can couples navigate if they are in different places risk-wise? Because let's be honest, I mean the statistics are what they are. Typically, us fellas tend to want to take a little bit more risk, and a lot of times the ladies tend to want to play it a little safer. Not always, but that's kind of the average.   So how do you guys handle that and what's some advice there?   John: So we'll do risk tolerances for each client when that comes up. And we we'll find that someone, again, might be more aggressive than the other, so maybe their accounts are invested, maybe a moderate where someone else's, the spouse might be invested conservative. So that, having separate accounts makes that a little bit easier.   It becomes more difficult when it's the, a joint account. And what we'll do at that standpoint is we kind of go back to the plan. So a lot of the times it's what type of rate of return are we trying to achieve from the planning standpoint. We kind of have conversations, and we'll try to blend the two of them together.   I'd say for the most part, I don't want to speak for Nick, but he could jump in, have never really had this come up as an issue. It's kind of like, "Hey, this is how you want to do it. This is how this other person wants to do it." And for the most part, the spouses are okay with it as long as they're achieving their goals.   Mark: Interesting.   Nick: For the clients that tend to be, for the ones that have a little bit more of that risk appetite, we found through conversation that they have the risk appetite when things are good.   Mark: Sure. Everybody likes it when it's up, right?   Nick: Yeah, for sure. And not necessarily when things are bad. And so we're big fans of almost having, for lack of a better term, like a petty cash drawer or just kind of a smaller investment account that will carve out. So when there are clients that want to have that higher risk appetite, want to take opportunities to really kind of get some big upside.   Mark: So that's your speculative casino type money, right?   Nick: Yep.   Mark: If you will.   Nick: Yup, yup, exactly. And really too, because I would say the majority of our clients are pretty close to retirement or in retirement, they tend to, at least in our experience, be a little bit over that phase with any sort of larger amounts of money. Oftentimes they come to us and they're like, "All right, we had our fun and we're ready to be a little bit more in line on the risk side of things with the investment decisions that we're making." And oftentimes when we have that conversation of, "Hey, if you get an itch, let's have this off to the side and it'll help you make better decisions with the rest of the money." That tends to be kind of a winner for everybody.   John: No, I was going to say, yeah, that's kind of what we reference sometimes as a cave, this is kind of your play account where you want to buy some individual stocks and things like that, where the fluctuation won't really make a big impact overall on your plan. So as Nick mentioned, that kind of satisfies some of the very aggressive clients.   Mark: Okay. Well, so you mentioned the fact a second ago that a lot of your clients tend to be nearing or into retirement, and with a different demographic comes different feelings and mindsets about money.   So with that in mind, we tend to find that, which is really weird if you think about it this way, a lot of times you tend to find that in couples, going through the life, building of the life, raising the children, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, typically the wife tends to budget the money, handle the money, so on and so forth. She's doing all that stuff in the house. But when it comes to retirement, it tends to seem like us guys tend to take the lead there.   Is it okay for one person to handle all the financial matters? Or do you guys really prefer that both people have a good understanding, even if it's not your bag, do you still prefer them to have a general, I don't know, 10,000 foot view of what's going on?   Nick: Yes. I would say too, more and more that, again, from our experience, and maybe it's our clientele where you've got a lot of households that are both people work, both have retirement accounts, and although they may make some differences from the perspective of risk in their portfolios and stuff like that, it tends to be a collaborative effort. Again, I would say we have, anytime we do planning, we have clients fill out an expense worksheet. It's rare that they both fill it out. It's usually one of the two that are filling out the expense worksheet.   And so it does tend to get kind of broken up a little bit from who focuses on what. But it's definitely important that they're both on the same page and have a good grasp and an understanding. And I would say too is the easiest example of that, and the people that work with us kind of know this is there's one report that we go over with clients, it's like a cashflow. It's in detail, wall of numbers, lots of columns, can be kind of intense. And then there's an area called the decision center, which takes all those columns and it puts it into kind of a graph format and it's more interactive.   And I think that's kind of almost the best illustration of the different sides of the brain where one person in the couple sometimes likes the details and likes the column report and they like to, because they can go in on their client side of the portal and go through that and re-review it. And the other one is, "Hey, let's zoom out. Give me the broader picture. Are we good? Are we not good? Give me an idea of a couple of decisions that we need to make moving forward and let's go from there."   Mark: And there's no right or wrong to either one, it's just what is your personal appetite? But I think neither, like if both of you don't have a good understanding, John, that's a recipe for trouble later on too.   John: Yeah, no, I'd agree with that. It's important for both to at least have an idea of what's happening and working as a team, whether one takes a lead and one takes a backseat, we encourage everyone to have a general understanding. Because this past year has been interesting where I've had some clients have some health issues, pass away. And you got to make sure that both pistons are aware of what's happening because you don't want that situation where it's like, "Hey, I don't know where anything is. What do I do?" So [inaudible 00:11:43].   Mark: That's exactly the point, right? Yeah, that's the worst case scenario. And it often, it happens more times than people realize. So you both want to have a decent understanding, even if it's not your thing. And again, no gender roles there. It tends to be the case, but I mean, my wife is way smarter than I am, and she actually deals with, she's very analytical and deals with money and numbers all the time for work. And it's one of those things where when it comes to our retirement, she's like, "I don't want to deal with it. So you deal with it."   And it could just be as simple as, "I deal with numbers all the time, I don't want to deal with it yet another way." So no matter what it is, you find a way to make it work, but not having a decent understanding of what you have, and why you have it and who to turn to in the event of a catastrophe, is a recipe for disaster. So obviously if you're working with a financial professional and a team like the guys at PFG Private Wealth, then at least you also have that resource to turn to when something does happen like John just mentioned.   So one final question here, I'll let you both kind of jump in and chime in a little bit here. What final piece of advice would you give to couples who are maybe just beginning their retirement planning journey, when it comes to making sure that they both are feeling comfortable?   Nick: I think it depends on what phase they are in life, but in general, I think it's hard to screw it up long-term, if you're saving money. So even if you are very conservatively saving the money and you're not getting much return on your money, that kind of instills an ingrained habit of saving money and being used to living on the rest. That will lead you to better habits and better outcomes.   You can always take the next step in, whether it's working with an advisor, whether it's doing research by yourself and then making better and smarter decisions on how you invest that money that you saved. That tends to be kind of the easier part. But the behavior of saving that money first and then going from there, is the number one thing, I think that's important.   Mark: Okay. That's his advice there. What do you about you, John, what do you think?   John: Yeah, it's really similar. You can never go wrong saving. And it's really just kind of the words that just get started. Just get started saving, just get started planning, get started with any of it. Whether you have kids, you want to make sure that estate documents are in place, insurances are in place.   So depending on what phase, it's just a matter of getting started with the overall planning, and saving is definitely where you want to be the forefront. Because like Nick said, you can't go wrong. You're never going to be mad looking back saying, "Man, I saved way too much for retirement."   Mark: Right, exactly. Taking the forward steps and doing something to quote the rush song, right? If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. So don't make that choice to do nothing. Do something for yourself and your future self and get started today. Make sure that you are planning for retirement and having conversations with your loved ones so that you guys are on the same page.   And of course, as always, if you need some help, make sure that you get onto the calendar with qualified professionals like the team at PFG Private Wealth. You can find them online at pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com to get yourself some time on the calendar to sit down with John and Nick and get started today.   This has been Retirement Planning, Redefined. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on whatever major podcasting platform app you like to use. They're on all of them. So you can just type in Retirement Planning, Redefined in the search box, or just go to pfgprivatewealth.com.   We'll sign off for this week. For John and Nick, I'm your host Mark, and we'll catch you next time.

Merry Christmas! Last Hake of the year! Calls and Supers, mostly on "racism" and history! Devils right about each other! The Hake Report, Friday, December 22, 2023 AD TIME STAMPS * (0:00:00) Start* (0:00:43) Ho ho ho: Hey, guys! Mildly Attractive Hake tee* (0:02:41) KEITH, IL: Maze victim mama spirit, black community* (0:06:50) KEITH: My people left the South for manufacturing jobs* (0:07:49) KEITH: Taught to care what others think by Hollywood, idol worship* (0:08:57) DANIEL, TX: Civil War, Gettysburg nitty gritty, Gen. Lee (RDF)* (0:16:24) DANIEL: Confederates won Mexican-American war, statue fear* (0:20:19) DANIEL: Edward Porter Alexander correct* (0:21:41) Super: Thx for Chinese music! Jacky "Love Is Half a Lifetime"* (0:24:36) Super Greggatron: Ask Maze to make a YouTube* (0:25:05) Super: Demon-rats, CA history, Night Stalker, 1965 immigration, media deceit* (0:27:43) Super: Save the menthols! Bill from Chicago, IL (Twitch) reaction* (0:31:34) Super: Fave childhood Christmas memory? Superman, Grandma's House* (0:32:22) Super: Dershowitz, CO, 14th Amendment, Scalia, secession, "insurrection"* (0:36:24) Super: John 2: 15 Jesus drove them out without flogging* (0:37:40) Super: Merry Christmas, Santa joy, Palestinians, blatts* (0:38:41) Super: Santa travel, FE possibility* (0:40:03) Super Chat show? No guest Dielawn today! Debt* (0:41:28) Super: Lady did 21 years, but POC the problem? * (0:43:13) FREDERICK: Winter solstice, Dielawn* (0:47:27) FREDERICK: Rich/blacks love entertainment, we need anger testosterone* (0:53:19) "The Friendly Beasts" - Sufjan Stevens (Songs for Christmas)* (0:57:47) Used Name, Tom Foolery Show, we're right about each other* (1:02:51) MARK, CA: Segregationist history, communism, integration Little Rock, Mississippi * (1:07:40) MARK: Violent left, JFK assassination, Antifa* (1:10:10) MARK vs JOHN, KY: Opinion on KKKs? FBI today, liberators then. "Crack"* (1:13:25) MARK: Are you childish? Bitter, derisive. * (1:18:22) MARK: Maj Gen Edwin A Walker, smeared, erased* (1:18:57) RONNIE, OH: Re: Mark, States' rights* (1:23:56) RONNIE: black men in power: Neil DeGrasse Tyson* (1:29:44) RONNIE: Is the man the head of his wife? * (1:35:17) WILLIAM, CA: Thank you; States' self-government* (1:38:06) WILLIAM: Name-calling earlier; His age is your IQ, BHI* (1:41:22) WILLIAM: Cornel West supporters* (1:44:31) BIGG BUMP: Omar. Merry Christmas. * (1:46:32) MAZE: Bright people not learning, Fannie Lou Hamer, history* (1:48:39) BEN, RI: Mother Theresa communist? Catholic. Anger. * (1:51:15) "What Child Is This Anyway?" - Sufjan Stevens (Songs for Christmas)BLOG https://www.thehakereport.com/blog/2023/12/22/merry-christmas-and-happy-racism-with-hake-fri-12-22-23 PODCAST by HAKE SubstackLive M-F 9-11 AM PT (11-1 CT / 12-2 ET) Call-in 1-888-775-3773 – thehakereport.com  VIDEO  YouTube  |  Rumble*  |  Facebook  |  X  |  BitChute  |  Odysee*  PODCAST  Apple  |  Spotify  |  Castbox  |  Substack  (RSS)  *SUPER CHAT on asterisked above, or  BuyMeACoffee  |  Streamlabs  |  Ko-fi  SUPPORT HAKE  Substack  |  SubscribeStar  |  Locals  ||  SHOP  Teespring  ALSO SEE  Hake News on The JLP Show  |  Appearances (other shows, etc.)  JLP Network:  JLP  |  Church  |  TFS  |  Hake  |  Nick  |  Joel  Get full access to HAKE at thehakereport.substack.com/subscribe

On this episode, we will continue our conversation on what expenses may change when you enter into retirement. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Mark: Back here for another episode of the podcast with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth. On Retirement Planning Redefined, we're going to get back into our conversation from the prior episode about cashflow. We went through some categories, housing, work stuff, healthcare, taxes, so on and so forth, on how those expenses will change either to the plus or the minus, depending on our setup. Well, this is the time to talk about the setup. So as we are assessing our retirement expenses, we'll break these down into a couple of categories. So we're going to talk about those with the guys. John, welcome in buddy. How you doing this week? John: Hey, I'm doing all right. How are you? Mark: Hanging in there. Doing pretty well. How about you, Nick? Nick: Pretty good. Staying busy. Mark: Staying busy and enjoying. So we're taping this before the fourth, but we're dropping this after the fourth, so hopefully you guys had a good fourth? Nick, you probably went up and saw family, yeah? Nick: Heading up north to just, yeah, extended family and friends. That fourth week makes it an easier week to get away because everyone's doing stuff anyways. Mark: Yeah, yeah. It's always funny when we have the holidays and we're kind of taping the podcast ahead of time because then drop it because we're not around, so sometimes I get confused on my dates. So yeah, again, we're talking about this before the fourth about what we'll probably will be doing on the fourth. So John, are you on grill duty? Because I know I am. I'm stuck on it. John: No, no. My brother's forcing me to have a cookout at my house, so I told him if I'm providing the house, he's the one on grill duty. Mark: Okay, that'll work.   John: He's visiting from Boston, so he's excited because my other brother's down here and my sister, cousin, and actually the best man in his wedding is married to my sister, so he decided to come down.   Mark: So Marketing 101. So the second you said Boston, all I hear is these Sam Adams commercials right now, "Your cousin from Boston." Every freaking time I hear Boston, that's the first thing I think of. Or Sam Adams beer, I go right there. All through the hockey playoffs and NBA playoffs, I kept seeing those commercials so it's embedded in my brain. But hey, that's the point of marketing, right, is to be those little earworms, so you go out and buy whatever it is that you go out and buy. And speaking of that, that's my transition into the must haves versus the nice to haves. So if we're talking about those accounts, those different categories that we went through on the prior episode, guys, how do those things now play into for our cashflow? Again, cashflow is the conversation wraparound, it's the wrapper of this whole endeavor. We need to break this down. And do you guys do this with clients? Is it something you encourage them to do, because everybody's individual needs and wants are going to be a little bit differently, but do you break things up in the must-haves versus the nice to haves? Nick: I would say to a certain extent, we do. We kind of list basic expenses and discretionary expenses. Mark: So give us some musts. What's the musts? Nick: So obviously housing, healthcare, food and groceries, some form of transportation, whether it's one vehicle, two vehicles. Getting rid of debt. Those are all things that are obviously needs. [inaudible 00:03:02] Mark: Life essentials, right? Nick: Yeah, for sure, for sure. Depending upon the people, some things are discretionary. I would say most of the people that we work for can't afford to have some sort of traveling in retirement. Mark: Yeah, so is two trips a year or is it five trips a year? That's kinds how it starts to change? Nick: Yeah, exactly. Or even a big trip every X amount of years. So like a baseline travel budget of X, and then let's add one of the things that we commonly do is, let's say the travel budget is $6,000 a year from a baseline standpoint, and then every three years they want to do an additional trip of another 6,000, that's one trip. And so we can scatter that in throughout the plan and show them what it looks like and toggle that on and off. And with how we do planning, we can show them the impact of doing something like that and what it does to their plan. So for the higher tier, nice to have. For discretionary expenses, we will use our planning software and kind of show them, Hey, here's the impact on your plan if you want to do that. Because we always preface everything, it's telling people that it's your money, we're not telling you how to spend your money or what to do with your money, our job is to show you the impact of the decisions that you make. Mark: That makes sense, yeah. Nick: So let's arm you with that information so that you understand if you do these things, then let's make an adjustment accordingly. And for sometimes it helps them put into perspective where not everything is a yes or a no. And what I mean by that is, well, let's just say that there's two lifetime trips that they wanted to really do, and so they like to have a bigger travel budget, but really when you boil it down, it's like, okay, I want to make sure I go to these two places. So we make sure that we can accomplish those and make adjustments elsewhere. [inaudible 00:04:58] Mark: Yeah, because the must ... I'm sorry to cut you off, but I was thinking about this as you were saying it. The must-haves, like the housing, the health, food, you're not going to have any kind of discretionary wiggle room. Well, you don't want to. Now you could say, okay, we'll eat less food, or something like that, but that's not the goal in retirement, you don't want to go backwards. So the place typically we do make some adjustments in the cuts are in the nice to have categories. Nick: Yeah, and usually it's almost more of a toggle where even to a certain extent of, we've had conversations where, hey, if things are going really well in the markets and we're able to take advantage and take a little extra money out in years where things have gone well, that's kind of the impetus to do this sort of thing. Mark: Kind of pad the numbers a little bit.   Nick: Yeah. Mark: John, let me get you on here for, besides the expenses we covered, some of the things we went through, what are some contributing factors that will affect cashflow problems that you guys see in retirement? So all these different things, whether it's healthcare, housing, whether it's whatever, give me some bullet points here for folks to think about on things that can, not in a category per se, but like outside effectors, outside influencers, that can really cause us cashflow problems in retirement. John: The number one I'd say, concern for most people going through retirement is longevity. How long does my money need to last? Mark: And that's the great multiplier, right? Because if you live longer, it makes everything else go up. John: Correct. Yeah. So that's one thing we look at, and we do plans. We're planning for age 100, and we'll always get people like, well, I'm not living that long. But the thing is, that's always ... Mark: What if you do? John: Exactly. So it's like, Hey, listen, if you live to 100, guess what? Mark: You're covered. John: Your plan looks good. You could live to 90 and the plan looks good. So we always plan for, we again, overestimate the expenses, overestimate the life expectancy, Mark: And then you don't have to live with your cousin in Boston, right? John: Exactly. That's right. Mark: All right. What else besides longevity? John: Another big one we're seeing right now is inflation. Because with retirement, you're not getting a paycheck anymore, so your ability to earn is now gone. So your nest egg is providing that income for you and social security. And keeping up with inflation, especially the last few years has been a challenge for quite a few people. And mostly I would say for me, I've noticed my food bill has gone up drastically in the last couple of years, more than anything else is really. Because we talked about musts and nice to have, if trips go up, you could say, all right, I'm going to go on a little bit lesser trip, or not go as much, but you know, you got to eat and you got to have healthcare. So those things there are big ones to really consider going into retirement and to be aware of, is the plan [inaudible 00:07:42] Mark: Yeah, a friend of mine, for Memorial Day, we were talking about cookouts earlier, so we got July 4th, you're probably hearing this after July 4th, but how much did it cost you to buy this stuff? So a friend of mine posted a picture around Memorial Day that he bought three steaks, and he lived in the New York area, Nick, actually. And the tag on the thing was like 60 bucks for three steaks. It was like, holy moly. And I know different parts of the country are more expensive than others, but it was just where I'm at, it was like, wow. And they weren't like that impressive of a steak. So to your point, you got to eat. Nick: To be honest with you, I think there's a little bit of ... Mark: Price gouging. Nick: ... ridiculousness and price gouging going on right now from the perspective of a lot of different areas. I just got my six months notice on my car insurance, I've been complaining to everybody about it. One vehicle, no accidents [inaudible 00:08:34] John: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Nick, this isn't a therapy session, right? Mark: Well remembered, well remembered, John, from the prior episode. Very good. Nick: Yes. I drive probably 7,000 miles a year at the most and paying almost $2,500 a year for car insurance. But the crazy part is that, so okay, if it's always been high, that's one thing, but two years ago when I had switched companies, it was about 1,700. So again, we take ... Mark: Inflation. Nick: Do the math on that. I'm sorry, but 50% is not inflation, there's some 50% in two years and it's kind of wild. And then even just going, the area that we're in has been massive growth in this area, but even what the restaurants are charging, and it's just inflation impacts different areas differently. Mark: It's an excuse. I mean, just like anything, we've turned it into excuse, just like the supply chain problem issue. A friend of mine was trying to get his RV worked on and they were like, well, we're still having supply chain issues for a valve. And it's like, really, a valve on an RV, it's been three years. I don't know if supply chain issue really holds in that argument, but if companies are dragging their feet or employers, somebody's just taking long, that's just an excuse. And I think that's the same thing with the inflation. Is it real? Yes. But to your point, are some of these numbers really truly justified? But they can use that, well, inflation's bad. That's the excuse they use in order to hit you with a 50% increase. Nick: Yeah, and I'd say from a planning perspective, because people get concerned about that from a planning perspective, and saying, well, hey, we had much higher inflation last year than we did in our plan moving forward, and [inaudible 00:10:27] Mark: Are we going to be okay to survive it, yeah. Nick: Yeah, and the easiest way that we mitigate that from a planning perspective is we reprice current expenses. So in other words, repricing the current expenses allows us to take that into consideration, the increases that we've had, and then use more normal rates moving forward, which is how you more accurately display that from a planning side of things. Mark: Gotcha. All right, John, so you hit us with longevity and inflation as a couple of areas that can contribute to cashflow problems. Give me a couple more before we wrap up this week. John: Investment returns is another spot, depending on what type of plan you do or type of planning, if some people will really have their income depend on what their portfolio is returning for them. Mark: So we're talking about sequence of return risk, kind of thing? John: Yeah. So if you having a down year and there's not as much income coming in from your portfolio, well that could ultimately affect your cashflow. Or if it's a down year, and we go back to longevity of, Hey, how long is my portfolio going to last, just have a 20% dip in the market, you're going to be a little concerned about pulling out in that period of time, because once you pull out, you know, you realize those losses, and there's no more recovering [inaudible 00:11:41] Mark: Yeah, it's a double way, it's the market's down and you're pulling money out. So the truth that makes the longevity factor interesting. Okay. John: So one more thing on this. This is really important, and especially what we're seeing in the last couple of years where you have some type of plan where if you are dependent on that, you have almost like a different bucket to pull from in a time like this. So you really want to position yourself to be able to adapt to downturns in the market which could affect your income. Nick: One of the things, and I've been having this conversation quite a bit lately, is that previous to last year, for the dozen years leading up to that, rates in return on fixed or cash and cash equivalence was so low, you couldn't get any return on that money, that really people shifted predominantly, or at least in a large way, to take more risks, meaning more upside, so more heavily on the [inaudible 00:12:39] Mark: Well, because the market was going up too. We get addicted to that, so it's very easy to go, well, it does nothing but climb, it's done it for 12 years in a row, so let's keep going, right? Nick: Yeah. And a little bit of that's a circle where it's part of the reason it kept climbing, is because people were saying, well, and not just, but it's just a contributing factor where it's like, well, hey, I'm literally getting zero return here. So inflation's eating away at my money anyways, I might as well take a little bit more risk. And so earlier this year in the majority of our client portfolios, we took some money off the table because now we can get four to 5% in something that has no risk, and that lets us kind of at least take a deep breath, see what's going on, get some sort of return, where most of our plans, we use five to 6% in retirement anyways. Mark: Yeah, that's a good point. You just got to be careful, right? Because we don't know how long those rates will last either, so you don't want to lock yourself into anything too hefty either, without making sure it's the correct move for you. Especially, I'm thinking more like CDs for example. Nick: Yeah. We still target things that are short term, that sort of thing. But for a retiree, even from the perspective of, let's just use the million dollar number, there's a huge difference between five years ago, where if you wanted to do a one year CD and you could get 0.8%, that's $8,000 on a million bucks versus 5%, even just for a year, now it's 50,000 of income. I mean, one is you can't pay your bills, another one is going to be much more comfortable. So for a retiree, one of the sunny side or glass half full part of what we've been dealing with from an inflation perspective, is that at least there's a little bit more return on safer money as we try to re-plan and readjust. Mark: Yeah. No, that makes sense. So one more category here that I want to hit for just cashflow problems in retirement, John, you did longevity inflation and investment returns. I'm going to assume the fourth one's probably just the emergencies, the things that life throws at you in retirement years? John: Yeah, a hundred percent. Emergency funds, it's [inaudible 00:14:44] Mark: Got to have one. John: ... for that, because you just don't know what's going to happen. Mark: Murphy's Law's going to happen, right? John: Murphy's Law's been happening for the last three years. So basically a big one is healthcare expenses, which we touched on as a must have. So big health event could really dip into your emergency funds. Or again, especially here in Florida with the roofs, have talked to some clients and friends who basically were having homeowners insurance issues here, and then carriers are basically saying, Hey, for you to get renewed, you need a new roof. And all of a sudden it's like, what? I just go, my roof's fine. It's like, well, it's outdated, you know, you need a new one, or else [inaudible 00:15:24] Mark: And so they're not covering maybe the full cost or some of the cost, I guess, but they won't insure you. John: I had some friends actually get notices saying, your roof's too old. If you don't replace it, we're dropping coverage. Mark: Oh geez. Okay, yeah. John: So that's an emergency expense. Mark: Definitely. John: Roofs aren't necessarily cheap, so important to have an emergency fund because like you said, Murphy's Law, you have no idea what's going to come up and you want to be prepared for that. Mark: Yeah. No, that's a good point. Nick: The roof thing is pretty wild here too, because a lot of people have tile roofs down here. And depending upon the size of the house, a tile roof is going to cost you, what John? Between 50 and a hundred thousand dollars? John: Yeah, 50 to a hundred grand. Mark: Really? Holy moly. Nick: And so, yeah, and then if you're in a neighborhood that has association rules and all these other things, it can get a little squirrely. So just understanding even little basic things like that, where especially people that came maybe from up north where it's just shingle roofs and 10, 12 grand, 15 maybe, and then [inaudible 00:16:25] Mark: Yeah, I was going to say, my metal roof was like 20, and that was like eight years ago. Nick: Yeah. So there's just things like that where we always very much emphasize having an emergency fund. Mark: Yeah, definitely. All right, good stuff. Talking just cashflow issues, things to consider here on the podcast the last couple of weeks. So if you're worried about the cashflow or you're just worried about making sure your plan is accurate for the time of life you're in, especially if you're one of these folks that maybe got a plan, you're like, ah, I got a plan put together like a decade ago, or whatever. Well, it's not a set it and forget it, it shouldn't be a set it and forget it, anyway. Even insurance policies, sometimes it's very easy to get one and throw it in the drawer for 20 years and forget about it, but all those things can be looked at and reviewed and see if there's a better way to put a strategy together. So if you need a first opinion or second opinion, reach out to John and Nick and the team at PFG Private Wealth. Find them online at pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on Apple, Google, Spotify, whatever the case might be. Whichever podcasting platform app you like, just type in retirement planning redefine in the search box. Or again, find it all online, pfgprivatewealth.com. For John, Nick, I'm your host, Mark. We'll catch you next time here on the podcast. This has been Retirement Planning Redefined.

theAPSociety.org/AWW2023/ https://www.jarodkanderson.com/   Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. S4E12 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm your host, Mark. Yucca: and I'm Yucca. Mark: and today, we are just going to have a short episode in which we announced the exciting thing that's coming up in June, so let's get into it. Yucca: That's right, which is June is not very far away. So welcome to April, everybody. Here we are. So in two months from now actually, why don't you go ahead, mark. What are, what's happening in two months from now? Mark: two months from now, we are holding an online conference, which is going to be called the atheopagan Web Weaving 2023, and it's an opportunity for us to gather together over Zoom Potentially hundreds of us because we're, we have the infrastructure to accommodate that. And we'll have workshops and informational SEC sessions and classes that will happen in breakout groups. We'll have a keynote speaker. We have a special session of the adult salon, which will be a burlesque class that'll be happening by some well trained professional burlesque dancing people. Yeah. So, and there's just, you know, we're gonna do community acknowledgements of various rights of passage. People who got married or had a baby or got divorced or retired, or. Whatever, you know, whatever those things are. There's just, there's gonna be a lot of really cool stuff at this conference and we'll talk a little bit about some of those offerings today. But the main thing to know is the conference is from zero to $50 to register Yucca: Right. So no Mark: can't afford. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: That's right. No, nobody will be turned away for lack of money. We're asking people to shoot for $20 as a registration, and the money is going to be used to compensate the people that are teaching the workshops as well as the keynote speaker. And we're, we're hoping to at least break even on this event. So that's what your money's going towards is actually producing this conference. You can find out all the information about this at the atheopagan society.org, which no, which is the ap society.org/a w w 2023, which is short for atheopagan web weaving 2023. Yucca: and we're gonna put the link in the description so you don't have, yeah, you can just go click on it from your whatever app you're using to listen to this. So you can just go ahead and click right there. Mark: You can download the program there. There's a button that you can click to register on, sign ingenious. The whole thing is very transparent and easy to do. We've got, since we since we launched this morning, we've already got a bunch of registrations. So it's all working and we'd really like for you to come and join. We're gonna have breakout sessions that are just for socializing, so you can hang out with fellow atheopagan and non theist naturalistic pagans and get to know one another. So we're really excited about this. We've been working on it for a while, and hope that you'll come. Yucca: Yeah, and, and it's really exciting to have an online gathering because last year we did have an in-person gathering, which was amazing, and we're gonna have one again next year. But that's not something that's sustainable for us to do. Every year on a large scale, right? Maybe local groups might be able to, you know, there might be the California or Col, Colorado or UK or something like that. Groups that can do it every year, but for bringing people in from all over, and of course we can't all travel. That's not, you know, necessarily a possibility for everybody. So being able to, Gather and connect with each other. Get to see each other's faces, although you don't have to. Right. If you're not Yeah, Mark: video. If you don't want to, or even your audio, you can just sit and. Yucca: Right. So we, we really want it to be as welcoming and open for everybody, right? And so that's why one of the reasons that this is so exciting is it's gonna be a chance for us to connect. And of course, you know, we can connect through Discord and Facebook and all of that, but there's something very different about it being an event, Mark: Yes. And being able to see one another's faces it's, it's, it's not as good as in person and we all know that, but it is still pretty amazing to be able to see people from all over the world who are of like mind in terms of their, their religiosity. Your spirituality and to share ideas and information and get to know one another. So I am, I'm really pretty pumped about this. And you know, as Yucca says, one of the things that was. Kind of a sad thing about the Suntry retreat that we had last year is that inevitably there are people that just can't afford to buy a plane ticket or to, you know, to go Yucca: Take off of work or whatever it is. Yeah. Mark: whatever it is, and this really will enable anybody that can simply get the time on June 3rd and fourth, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Saturday and Sunday. Mark: Saturday and Sunday. Just to log in and, and have this experience with us together. Yucca: Point, and it's nice that there's, there's some just social time, but there's also workshops. So I find, personally, I like to have a structure when I'm meeting new people. So that we have something that, oh, we're coming and working on this together. Right. That's kind of nice sometimes to have that, that structure to. To center the social interaction around. But then also there's just the, for people who just wanna just hang out and just talk, that's an option too. And so throughout the day, different times, different options. So if you work in the morning but you don't in the evening, then there's plenty for you to come and, and do in the evening or vice versa. Or you can do one day but not the other. Or if you wanna spend all day, both days, that's awesome too. There'll be a lot. So, Mark: Yeah, so what I'd like to do now actually, is to read off some of the program offerings that are in the program for this. In the first workshop slot on Saturday, there are three offerings, sarcastic tau which just is very intriguing just for its title the way of the atheopagan cleric, which is one that I'll be teaching about performing that kind of service in the community, and Stardust communion, connecting with our stellar roots through science, observation, and ritual. Yucca: Ooh, I think I know who Mark: Pretty cool, huh? Yucca: Okay. Mark: Yeah. And then in workshop, slot two is reclaiming the sacred, how to heal after leaving Abusive Religion. I know that'll have appeal for a bunch of people in our community. There's a, a workshop on imaginal practice, which is about sort of the inner world of creativity. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and then there's a, a, a sciencey presentation on wastewater treatment and the magical world of microbes because a member of our community is the manager of a wastewater treatment plant. Yucca: That's Mark: that's, it is, yeah. I'm so excited about it. Do a community Bardic circle, which is an open mic where people can read poetry, and you don't have to have your camera on if you don't want to. You could just have your microphone on. You, you can read poetry or spoken word Yucca: camera on and have, and be, have your whole costume. Right. That's an option too. Yep. If you want that, that excuse to, to dress up in that fantastic feather gown and cloaks that you have. Here's your opportunity. Mark: Yeah. And in fact, you don't even have to do anything else. If you're dressed up that fancy, you can just show us your beautiful duds. Yucca: That's right. Mark: Yeah. So we'll have that. We're later in the evening on Saturday, we're having a dance and cocktail party. So, one of, we'll, it'll be in breakout. And we'll have several of them open. One of them will be streaming dance music for people to enjoy. And the rest of them will be social groups. So you'll be able to move from room to room and visit with people that are, that are there in the breakout rooms. And that's just Saturday, so I'm gonna leave it there. So you can, if you're, if you're interested, you can go and look for the program and see what the rest we're offering. But it's I am, I'm so grateful to the folks that have been working on this. I, I know that our community members are atheopagan Society Council members. Rona and Michael have both done a lot of work on this, and it's super exciting. And now we get to talk about our keynote speaker, Yucca: Yes. Mark: pray. We, we just announced this this morning. We are really excited about this. The keynote speaker, which will be during the lunch hour on Saturday lunch hour Pacific time is Jared k Anderson, who is also known as the crypto naturalist. He is a poet and a writer and a podcaster. His material gets shared in the atheopagan Facebook group pretty frequently because his, it's just lovely stuff. At, in one of his pieces, he talks about how we are all part of an explosion and at a certain point, apparently, Adams just get sort of haunted, and that's us, Yucca: Hmm. Mark: The, the, the arisal of consciousness to be able to to look back at the universe and see ourselves and see what's going on here. It's, it's all there. It is. It's all kind of mysterious. Adams sometimes get haunted. I love. Yucca: Mm. That's wonderful. Mark: yeah. So I'm really looking forward to seeing him and actually he has a sale on his audiobooks right now. He has two books of poetry and they're four bucks a piece on audiobook, so go and look for that. We will put a link to his website in the show notes for today as well, so you can go and learn more about. So, Yucca, do you have other questions or things to offer about the upcoming conference? Yucca: Hmm. Well, you said it's two days, right? Those are two full days. So Mark: Sunday. The Sunday is a little shorter. It starts later in the morning and it runs a little bit shorter, Yucca: So you can do those Saturday evening activities, be rested for the morning. Yeah. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: And of course Mark did not mention all of the Sunday activities. There's, there's quite a few of those.  Mark: Are, there's more workshops and all kinds of stuff. Yucca: Right. You know, I'm, I'm not thinking of anything else. Of course. Any of you listening, if you've got questions about it go ahead and, and take a look at the link that we've got there. Anything else you can think of sharing, mark? Yeah. Mark: There is a, a question button on that page that I, I said the URL to. So if you have a question, just fill out the contact form and we'll, we'll get back to you and answer your question. Yucca: Yep. And of Mark: So, Yucca: the sooner we know who's planning to come, the better it is for the organiz. So if you are planning to come, it is really helpful just to let us know right away or sooner rather than, you know, the day before. So, Mark: Yeah, that's really important because if currently our Zoom account capacity is a meeting of up to a hundred people now if we have. Of more than a hundred registrants, we will simply buy more capacity from Zoom, but we need to know that they're coming, right? So Yucca: we would be delight if Mark: can register, the better. Absolutely we'd be, you know, over the moon if we had more than a hundred registrants. But we, but we would need some warning on that so we can buy the capacity from Zoom and people don't get bumped out. Yucca: Right. Mark: So please register early and often, just like they say about voting. Yucca: That's right. Well, and hopefully this, we, this will be something that we can do again in the future. I think there'll be a lot for us to learn, and I hope that it, it becomes an ongoing tradition. Mark: me too. And in the lead up we'll have interviews with a couple of the program presenters who who are going to be doing workshops or offerings at the conference so we can learn more about them. And I think that's pretty much about it, but we should talk about what we're gonna talk about next week as well. Yucca: Oh yes. Yeah. So we've got some interesting topics coming up. And we are. In a interesting month, right. We're in April, which is a month where there's a lot of kind of mainstream religious holidays that are taking place. Mark: Yes, yes. It's Earth Month, which is cool. We're, we're all cool with that. But of course Easter is also coming up soon and so it's a, it's a good time and Ramadan is also happening right Yucca: Passover. Yep. Mark: Yeah. So it's a good time for us to talk about the contrasts between Pagan values and our perspective on the world and those other kinds of religious path. Yucca: Right. And I think we'll probably get into a little bit about how some of those other paths have influenced the larger culture within which we live. Right, and even us as pagans, how are we influenced, even though we're not Christian or we're not, whatever those particular religions are, we're still steeped in a culture that has those values and you know, which ones are ones that, you know, we're choosing to examine and step away from and which ones were not, and how do we differ and, and that kind of thing. So I think that'll, that'll be a really interesting conversation. Mark: I think so too. The, well, I'll save it all for next week. That's, that's what I'll do Yucca: Sounds good. Mark: I've, I'm, I've already, I already have wheels turning, so there you go. Yucca: Yep. Well, this Mark: Um, once again, oh, go ahead. Yucca: Oh, I was just gonna do a wrap up. Sounds like you're doing a wrap up though Mark: Let's do them on top of one another and see if people can understand us Yucca: the same time. Okay. Mark: No, no, no. Yucca: No, go ahead, mark. Mark: Well, as always, we really appreciate your listening. Thanks for the emails and comments that we've had recently. We really appreciate it. If we haven't gotten back to you yet, we will. We, we do always respond to our emails except for the ones that pretend to be invoices that we don't actually owe. So, Yucca: of those. Yeah. Mark: yeah, it's a. Yucca: Apparently our crypto wallet keeps getting hacked or something like that. Right. Mark: Yeah. And we don't have a crypto wallet, so that's, that's a, a Yucca: we've had a few Nigerian princes too that wanna give us a lot of money, so, yep. Anyway, Mark: but we have to, we have to Yucca: to. Yes. Yeah. Alright. Mark: Yeah. All right, everybody. See you next week.      

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncFy1zRA9HM 28 DAYS LATER Written by Alex Garland CLOSE ON A MONITOR SCREEN: Images of stunning violence. Looped. Soldiers in a foreign war shoot an unarmed civilian at point- blank range; a man is set on by a frenzied crowd wielding clubs and machetes; a woman is necklaced while her killers cheer and howl. Pull back to reveal that we are seeing one of many screens in a bank of monitors, all showing similar images... Then revealing that the monitors are in a... INT. SURGICAL CHAMBER - NIGHT ...surgical chamber. And watching the screens is a... ...chimp, strapped to an operating table, with its skull dissected open, webbed in wires and monitoring devices, muzzled with a transparent guard. Alive. Behind the surgical chamber, through the wide doorframe, we can see a larger laboratory beyond. INT. BRIGHT CORRIDOR - NIGHT A group of black-clad ALF Activists, all wearing balaclavas, move down a corridor. They carry various gear - bag, bolt cutters. As they move, one Activist reaches up to a security camera and sprays it black with an aerosol paint can. INT. LABORATORY - NIGHT The Activists enter the laboratory. CHIEF ACTIVIST Fucking hell... The Chief Activist takes his camera off his shoulder and starts taking photos. The room is huge and long, and darkened except for specific pools of light. Partially illuminated are rows of cages with clear perspex doors. They run down either side of the room. In the cages are chimpanzees. 2. Most are in a state of rabid agitation, banging and clawing against the perspex, baring teeth through foam-flecked mouths. They reach the far end of the lab, where on a huge steel operating table they see the dissected chimp. FEMALE ACTIVIST Oh God... The dissected chimp's eyes flick to the Activists. Blood wells from around the exposed brain tissue. Tears starts to roll down the Female Activist's cheeks. CHIEF ACTIVIST (to Female Activist) Keep your shit together. If we're going to get them out of here... The Finnish Activist is checking the perspex cages. FINNISH ACTIVIST I can pop these, no problem. CHIEF ACTIVIST So get to it. The Finnish Activist raises his crowbar and sticks it around the edge of one of the doors - about to prise it open. At the moment, the doors to the laboratory bang open. The Activists all turn. Standing at the entrance is the Scientist. A pause. The Scientist jumps to a telephone handset on the wall and shouts into the receiver. SCIENTIST Security! We have a break-in! Get to sector... A hand slams down the disconnect button. SCIENTIST ...nine. The Chief Activist plucks the receiver from the Scientist's hands, and then rips the telephone from the wall. A beat. 3. SCIENTIST I know who you are, I know what you think you're doing, but you have to listen to me. You can't release these animals. CHIEF ACTIVIST If you don't want to get hurt, shut your mouth, and don't move a fucking muscle. SCIENTIST (BLURTS) The chimps are infected! The Activists hesitate, exchanging a glance. SCIENTIST (continuing; stumbling, FLUSTERED) These animals are highly contagious. They've been given an inhibitor. CHIEF ACTIVIST Infected with what? SCIENTIST Chemically restricted, locked down to a... a single impulse that... CHIEF ACTIVIST Infected with what? The Scientist hesitates before answering. SCIENTIST Rage. Behind the Activists, the bank of monitors show the faces of the machete-wielding crowd. SCIENTIST (desperately trying to EXPLAIN) In order to cure, you must first understand. Just imagine: to have power over all the things we feel we can't control. Anger, violence... FINNISH ACTIVIST What the fuck is he talking about? 4. CHIEF ACTIVIST We don't have time for this shit! Get the cages open! SCIENTIST No! CHIEF ACTIVIST We're going, you sick bastard, and we're taking your torture victims with us. SCIENTIST NO! You must listen! The animals are contagious! The infection is in their blood and saliva! One bite and... FEMALE ACTIVIST They won't bite me. The Female Activist crouches down to face the wild eyes of the infected chimp behind the perspex. SCIENTIST STOP! You have no idea! The Scientist makes a desperate lunge towards her, but the Chief Activist grabs him. FEMALE ACTIVIST Good boy. You don't want to bite me, do you? The Female Activist gives a final benign smile, then the Finnish Activist pops open the door. SCIENTIST NO! Like a bullet from a gun, the infected chimp leaps out at the Female Activist - and sinks its teeth into her neck. She reels back as the chimp claws and bites with extraordinary viciousness. At the same moment, a deafening alarm begins to sound. FEMALE ACTIVIST (SHRIEKING) Get it off! Get if off! The Finnish Activist rips the ape off and throws it on to the floor. The infected chimp immediately bites into the man's leg. He yells with pain, and tries to kick it off. 5. Behind him, the Female Activist has started to scream. She doubles up, clutching the side of her head. FEMALE ACTIVIST I'm burning! Jesus! Help me! SCIENTIST We have to kill her! FEMALE ACTIVIST I'm burning! I'm burning! CHIEF ACTIVIST What's... SCIENTIST We have to kill her NOW! Meanwhile, the Female Activist's cries have become an unwavering howl of pain - and she is joined by the Finnish Activist, whose hands have also flown to the side of his head, gripping his temples as if trying to keep his skull from exploding. CHIEF ACTIVIST What's wrong with them? The Scientist grabs a desk-lamp base and starts running towards the screaming Female Activist... ...who has ripped off her balaclava - revealing her face - the face of an Infected. She turns to the Scientist. SCIENTIST Oh God. She leaps at him. He screams as they go tumbling to the ground. The Chief Activist watches in immobile horror as she attacks the Scientist with amazing ferocity. INT. CORRIDOR - NIGHT Another ACTIVIST makes his way down the corridor towards the lab. ACTIVIST (HISSES) Terry? Jemma? 6. No answer. ACTIVIST Mika? Where are you? He reaches the door to the lab, which is closed - and... ...as he opens it, we realize the door is also soundproofed. A wall of screaming hits him. He stands in the doorway - stunned by the noise, and then the sight. Blood, death, and his colleagues, all Infected. ACTIVIST Bloody hell. The Infected rush him. FADE TO BLACK. TITLE: 28 DAYS LATER INT. HOSPITAL ROOM - LATE AFTERNOON Close up of Jim, a young man in his twenties, wearing pale green hospital pyjamas. He has a month's beard, is dishevelled, and asleep. We pull back to see that Jim is lying on a hospital bed, in a private room. Connected to his arms are multiple drips, a full row of four or five on each side of his bed. Most of the bags are empty. Jim's eyes open. He looks around with an expression of confusion. Then he sits up. He is weak, but he swings his legs off the bed and stands. The attached drips are pulled with him and clatter to the floor. Jim winces, and pulls the taped needles from his arm. JIM Ow... His voice is hoarse, his mouth dry. Massaging his throat, he walks to the door. 7. INT. COMA WARD - LATE AFTERNOON The door to Jim's hospital room is locked. The key is on the floor. He picks it up and opens the door. Jim exits into a corridor. At the far end, a sign read: COMA WARD. There is no sign of life or movement. Jim walks down the corridor. One of the doors is half-open. From inside, there is the sound of buzzing flies. INT. HOSPITAL WARDS - LATE AFTERNOON Jim moves as quickly as he can through the hospital, still weak, but now driven by adrenaline. All the wards and corridors are deserted. Medical notes and equipment lie strewn over the floors, trolleys are upended, glass partition doors are smashed. In a couple of places, splashes of dried blood arc up the walls. He reaches A&E. On one wall is a row of public pay phones. He lifts a receiver, and the line is dead. He goes down the line, trying them all. In the corner of the A&E reception is a smashed soft-drinks machine, with a few cans collected at the base. Jim grabs one, rips off the ring-pull and downs it in one go. Then he grabs another, and heads for the main doors. EXT. HOSPITAL - LATE AFTERNOON Jim exits and walks out into the bright daylight of the forecourt. The camera begins to pull away from him. JIM Hello? Aside from a quiet rush of wind, there is silence. No traffic, no engines, no movement. Not even birdsong. EXT. LONDON - SUNDOWN Jim walks through the empty city, from St. Thomas's Hospital, over Westminster Bridge, past the Houses of Parliament, down Whitehall, to Trafalgar Square. 8. A bright overhead sun bleaches the streets. A light drifts litter and refuse. Cars lie abandoned, shops looted. Jim is still wearing his hospital pyjamas, and carries a plastic bag full of soft-drink cans. EXT. CENTRAL LONDON ROAD/CHURCH - NIGHT Jim walks. Night has fallen. He needs to find a place to rest... He pauses. Down a narrow side street is a church. He walks towards it. The front doors are open. INT. CHURCH - NIGHT Jim walks inside, moving with the respectful quietness that people adopt when entering a church. The doors ahead to the main chamber are closed. Pushing them, gently trying the handle, it is obvious they are locked. But another open door is to his left. He goes through it. INT. CHURCH - STAIRWELL - NIGHT Jim moves up a stairwell. Written large on the wall is a single line of graffiti: REPENT. THE END IS EXTREMELY FUCKING NIGH INT. CHURCH - GALLERY LEVEL - NIGHT Jim moves into the gallery level, and sees, through the dust and rot, ornate but faded splendor. At the far end, a stained- glass window is illuminated by the moonlight. Jim pads in, stands at the gallery, facing the stained-glass window for a moment before looking down... Beneath are hundreds of dead bodies. Layered over the floor, jammed into the pews, spilling over the altar. The scene of an unimaginable massacre. Jim stands, stunned. Then sees, standing motionless at different positions facing away from him, four people. Their postures and stillness make their status unclear. Jim hesitates before speaking. 9. JIM ...Hello? Immediately, the four heads flick around. Infected. And the next moment, there is the powerful thump of a door at the far end of the gallery. Jim whirls to the source as the Infected below start to move. The door thumps again - another stunningly powerful blow, the noise echoing around the chamber. Confused, fist closing around his bag of soft drinks, Jim steps onto the gallery, facing the door... ...and it smashes open. Revealing an Infected Priest - who locks sight on Jim, and starts to sprint. JIM Father? The Priest is half way across the gallery JIM Father, what are you... And now the moonlight catches the Priest's face. Showing clearly: the eyes. The blood smeared and collected around his nose, ears, and mouth. Darkened and crusted, accumulated over days and weeks. Fresh blood glistening. JIM Jesus! In a movement of pure instinct, Jim swings the bag just as the Priest is about to reach him - and connects squarely with the man's head. JIM Oh, that, was bad, that was bad... I shouldn't have done that... He breaks into a run... INT. CHURCH - STAIRWELL - NIGHT Down the stairwell... 10. INT. CHURCH - NIGHT ...into the front entrance, where the locked door now strains under the blows of the Infected inside. JIM Shit. EXT. CHURCH - NIGHT Jim sprints down the stone steps. As he reaches the bottom the doors are broken open, and the Infected give chase. EXT. CENTRAL LONDON ROAD - NIGHT Jim runs - the Infected have almost reached him. A hand fires up a Zippo lighter, and lights the rag of a Molotov cocktail. As Jim runs, something flies past his head, and the Infected closest to him explodes in a ball of flame. Jim turns, and sees as another Molotov cocktail explodes, engulfing two in the fireball. He whirls, now completely bewildered. WOMAN'S VOICE HERE! Another Molotov cocktail explodes. The Infected stagger from the blaze, on fire. WOMAN'S VOICE OVER HERE! Jim whirls again, and sees, further down the road... ...Selena, a black woman, also in her twenties. She wears a small backpack, a machete is stuck into her belt - and she holds a lit Molotov cocktail in her hand. ...Mark, a tall, good-looking man - throwing another bottle. It smashes on the head of the last Infected, bathing it in flame... The burning Infected bumps blindly into a car. Falls. Gets up again. 11. Blindly, it staggers off the road, into a petrol station - where an abandoned car has run over on the pumps. The ground beneath it suddenly ignites, and the petrol station explodes. EXT. SIDE STREET - NIGHT Selena and Mark lead Jim into a side street. JIM (DAZED) Those people! Who were... who... MARK This way! Move it! Jim allows himself to be hurried along. EXT. SHOP - NIGHT Selena stops outside a newsagent's shop. The shop's door and windows are covered with a metal security grill, but the grill over the door lock has been prised away enough for Selena to slip her hand through to the latch. INT. SHOP - NIGHT Inside, most of the shelves have been emptied of confectionery. Newspapers and magazines litter the floor. The magazine covers of beautiful girls and sports cars have become instant anachronisms. At the back of the shop, a makeshift bed of sheets and sleeping bag is nestled. This has obviously been Selena and Mark's home for the last few days. INT. NEWSAGENT - NIGHT Jim, Mark and Selena enter the newsagent's and pull down the grill. MARK A man walks into a bar with a giraffe. They each get pissed. The giraffe falls over. The man goes to leave and the barman says, you can't leave that lying there. The man says, it's not a lion. It's a giraffe. 12. Silence. Mark pulls off his mask and turns to Selena. MARK He's completely humorless. You two will get along like a house on fire. Selena, who has already taken off her mask, ignores Mark. SELENA Who are you? You've come from a hospital. MARK Are you a doctor? SELENA He's not a doctor. He's a patient. JIM I'm a bicycle courier. I was riding a package from Farringdon to Shaftesbury Avenue. A car cut across me... and then I wake up in hospital, today... I wake up and I'm hallucinating, or... MARK What's your name? JIM Jim. MARK I'm Mark. This is Selena. (BEAT) Okay, Jim. We've got some bad news. Selena starts to tell her story, and as the story unfolds we see the images she describes. SELENA It began as rioting. And right from the beginning, you knew something bad was going on because the rioters were killing people. And then it wasn't on the TV anymore. It was in the street outside. It was coming through your windows. We all guessed it was a virus. An infection. You didn't need a doctor to tell you that. It was the blood. 13. Something in the blood. By the time they tried to evacuate the cities, it was already too late. The infection was everywhere. The army blockades were overrun. And that was when the exodus started. The day before the radio and TV stopped broadcasting there were reports of infection in Paris and New York. We didn't hear anything more after that. JIM Where are your families? MARK They're dead. SELENA Yours will be dead too. JIM No... No! I'm going to find them. They live in Greenwich. I can walk. (heading for the exit) I'm going to... to go and... SELENA You'll go and come back. JIM (pulling at the grill) Yes! I'll go and come back. MARK Rules of survival. Lesson one - you never go anywhere alone, unless you've got no choice. Lesson two - you only move during daylight, unless you've got no choice. We'll take you tomorrow. Then we'll all go and find your dead parents. Okay? EXT. TRAIN TRACKS - DAY Jim, Selena and Mark walk along the Docklands Light Railway in single file. Ahead is a train. Behind the train, as if spilled in its wake, are abandoned bags, suitcases, backpacks. Mark drops pace to let Jim catch up. 14. MARK How's your head? Fucked? No reply. MARK (gesturing at the city) I know where your head is. You're looking at these windows, these millions of windows, and you're thinking - there's no way this many people are dead. It's just too many windows. Mark picks up a handbag from the tracks. MARK The person who owned this bag. Can't be dead. Mark reaches in and starts to pull things out as they walk, discarding the personal possessions. MARK A woman - (car keys) - who drove a Nissan Micra - (teddy) - and had a little teddy bear - (condoms) - and carried protection, just in case. Marks tosses the condoms behind him. MARK (DRY) Believe me, we won't need them anymore than she will. He hands the bag to Jim and walks ahead. Jim pulls out a mobile phone. He switches it on. It reads: SEARCHING FOR NETWORK. The message blinks a couple of times. Then the screen goes blank. Jim looks left. He is now alongside the train. The inside of the windows are smeared with dried blood. Pressed against the glass is the face of a dead man. 15. Jim drops the phone and breaks into a run - running past Mark and Selena. MARK (HISSING) Hey! EXT. GREENWICH COMMON - DAY Jim, Selena and Mark jog across Greenwich Common. Jim gestures towards one of the streets on the far side of the green. JIM (LOW VOICE) Down there. Westlink Street. Second on the left. EXT. WESTLINK STREET - DAY The street is modest red-brick semi-detached houses. They stand outside Number 43. Jim waits while Selena scans the dark facade. SELENA If there's anyone in there who isn't human... JIM I understand. SELENA Anyone. JIM I understand. Selena shoots a glance at Jim. Jim is gazing at the house. MARK Okay. EXT. BACK GARDEN - DAY Jim uses the key under the flowerpot to open the back door. INT. HOUSE - DAY Jim, Selena and Mark move quietly through the kitchen and the downstairs of the house. 16. Surprisingly, everything is neat and tidy. Washed plates are stacked by the sink, newspapers on the table are neatly piled. The headline on the top paper reads simply: CONTAINMENT FAILS. They reach the bottom of the stairs. Selena gestures upwards, and Jim nods. They start to ascend. At the top of the stairs, Selena sniffs the air, and recoils. Jim has noticed it too. His eyes widen in alarm. MARK (WHISPERS) Wait. But Jim pushes past and advances along the top landing, until he reaches a door. By now the smell is so bad that he is having to cover his nose and mouth with the sleeve of one arm. Jim pushes open the door. Inside, two decomposed bodies lie side by side on the bed, intertwined. On the bedside table are an empty bottle of sleeping pills and a bottle of red wine. Mark appears behind him. Jim stares at his parents for a couple of moments, then Mark closes the door. INT. BATHROOM - DAY Jim sits on the toilet, alone. He is crying. In his hand is a piece of paper: "Jim - with endless love, we left you sleeping. Now we're sleeping with you. Don't wake up." The paper crumples in his fist. INT. LIVING ROOM - DAY Jim, Selena and Mark sit in the living room, on the two sofas. Jim looks dazed, uncomprehending. Selena watches Jim, her expression neutral. SELENA They died peacefully. You should be grateful. JIM I'm not grateful. Jim's words hang a moment. Then Mark talks, simply, unemotionally, matter-of-fact throughout. 17. MARK The roads out were all jammed. So we went to Paddington Station. Hoping: maybe we could get to Heathrow, maybe buy our way on a plane. My dad had all this cash, even though cash was already useless, and Mum had her jewellery. But twenty thousand other people had the same idea. (A MOMENT) The crowd was surging, and I lost my grip on my sister's hand. I remember realizing the ground was soft. I looked down, and I was standing on people. Like a carpet, people who had fallen, and... somewhere in the crowd there were infected. It spread fast, no one could run, all you could do was climb. Over more people. So I did that. I got up, somehow, on top of a kiosk. (A MOMENT) Looking down, you couldn't tell which faces were infected and which weren't. With the blood, the screaming, they all looked the same. And I saw my dad. Not my mum or my sister. But I saw my dad. His face. A short silence. MARK Selena's right. You should be grateful. SELENA We don't have time to get back to the shop before dark. We should stay here tonight. Jim nods. He isn't sure what he wants to say. JIM My old room was at the end of the landing. You two take it. I'll sleep down here. SELENA We'll sleep in the same room. It's safer. 18. EXT. LONDON - DAY TO NIGHT The red orb of the sun goes down; the light fades. As night falls, London vanishes into blackness, with no electric light to be seen. Then the moon appears from behind the cloud layer, and the dark city is revealed. INT. HOUSE - NIGHT Jim is on the sofa. In the moonlight, we can see that his eyes are open, wide awake. Selena is curled on the other sofa, and Mark is on the floor - both asleep. The house is silent. Jim watches Selena sleeping for a couple of moments. Then, quietly, he gets off the sofa and pads out of the living room, down the hall to the kitchen. INT. KITCHEN - NIGHT Jim enters, standing just inside the doorway. He looks around the room. On one wall, a faded kid's drawing of a car is framed. Above the counter, on a shelf of cookery books, an album has a handwritten label on the spine: "Mum's Favorite Recipes". Jim walks to the fridge. Stuck to the door is a photo of Jim with his parents, arm in arm, smiling at the camera. Jim is on his mountain bike, wearing his courier bag. FLASH CUT TO: Jim, sitting at the kitchen table as his Mum enters, carrying bags of shopping. Jim walks over to the bags and pulls out a carton of orange juice, which he pulls straight to his mouth and begins to gulp down. His Dad walks in from the garden. JIM'S DAD Give me a glass of that, would you? JIM (draining the carton, and giving it a shake) It's empty. CUT BACK TO: 19. Jim touches the photo, their faces, lightly. Jim is facing away from the back door, which has a large frosted-glass panel. Through the glass panel, unseen by Jim a dark silhouette looms against the diffused glow from the moonlight. Through the kitchen window, a second silhouette appears. Then there is a scratching noise from the back door. Jim freezes. Slowly, he turns his head, and sees the dark shapes behind the door and window. A beat - then the door is abruptly and powerfully smashed in. It flies open, and hangs loosely held by the bottom hinge. Standing in the doorframe is an Infected Man. Jim shouts with alarm as the Man lunges at him - and they both go tumbling to the floor. At the same moment, the figure behind the kitchen window smashes the glass, and an Infected Teenage Girl starts to clamber through the jagged frame. The Man gets on top of Jim, while Jim uses his arms to hold back the ferocious assault. A single strand of saliva flies from the Man's lips, and contacts Jim's cheek. JIM (SCREAMS) Help! Suddenly, Selena is there, holding her machete. The blade flashes down to the back of the Man's neck. Blood gushes. Jim rolls the Infected Man off, just in time to see... ...Mark dispatch the Girl half way through the kitchen window. The Girl is holding Mark, but her legs are caught on the broken glass. Mark jabs upwards into the Girl's torso - she stiffens, then slumps, and as Mark steps back we see he is holding a knife. Jim hyperventilates, staring at the corpse on the kitchen floor. JIM It's Mr. Bridges... Selena turns to Jim. She is hyperventilating too, but there is control and steel in her voice. 20. SELENA Were you bitten? JIM He lives four doors down... Jim turns to the Girl sprawled half way through the window. JIM That's his daughter... SELENA Were you bitten? Jim looks at her. Selena is still holding her machete at the ready. JIM No... No! I wasn't! SELENA Did any of the blood get in your mouth? JIM No! SELENA Mark? Jim turns to Mark. He is standing in the middle of the room. Stepped away from the window. The Girl's blood is on his arm - and he is wiping it away... ...off the skin... where a long scratch cut wells up fresh blood. A moment. Then Mark looks at Selena, as if slightly startled. MARK Wait. But Selena is swiping with her machete. Mark lifts his arm instinctively, defensively, and the blade sinks in. Selena immediately yanks it back. MARK DON'T! Selena swipes again - and the blade catches Mark hard in the side of the head. Mark falls. 21. Jim watches, scrabbling backwards on the floor away from them, as Selena brutally finishes Mark off. Selena looks at Mark's body for a couple of beats, then lowers the blade. She picks up a dishcloth from the sink counter and tosses it to Jim. SELENA Get that cleaned off. Jim picks up the rag and hurriedly starts to wipe the Infected's blood from around his neck. SELENA Do you have any clothes here? JIM (fazed, frightened of her) I... I don't know. I think so. SELENA Then get them. And get dressed. We have to leave, now. With practiced speed, Selena starts to open the kitchen cupboards, selecting packets of biscuits and cans from the shelves, and stuffing them into her backpack. SELENA More infected will be coming. They always do. EXT. HOUSE - NIGHT Jim and Selena exit the front door. Jim has changed out of his hospital gear into jeans and a sweatshirt. He also has a small backpack, and is carrying a baseball bat. EXT. LONDON ROAD - NIGHT Jim and Selena walk: fast, alert. But something is not being said between them... until Jim breaks the silence. JIM (QUIET) How did you know? Selena says nothing. Continues walking. JIM (INSISTENT) How did you know he was infected? 22. SELENA The blood. JIM The blood was everywhere. On me, on you, and... SELENA (CUTTING IN) I didn't know he was infected. Okay? I didn't know. He knew. I could see it in his face. (A MOMENT) You need to understand, if someone gets infected, you've got somewhere between ten and twenty seconds to kill them. They might be your brother or your sister or your oldest friend. It makes no difference Just so as you know, if it happens to you, I'll do it in a heartbeat. A moment. JIM How long had you known him? SELENA Five days. Or six. Does it matter? Jim says nothing. SELENA He was full of plans. Long-distance weapons, so they don't get close. A newsagent's with a metal grill, so you can sleep. Petrol bombs, so the blood doesn't splash. Selena looks at Jim dispassionately. SELENA Got a plan yet, Jim? You want us to find a cure and save the world? Or fall in love and fuck? Selena looks away again. SELENA Plans are pointless. Staying alive is as good as it gets. Silence. 23. They walk. Jim following a few steps behind Selena. A few moments later, Jim lifts a hand, opens his mouth, about to say something - but Selena cuts him off without even looking round. SELENA Shhh. She has seen something... A line of tower blocks some distance away, standing against the night sky. In one of them, hanging in the window of one of the highest stories, colored fairy lights are lit up, blinking gently. INT. TOWER BLOCK - NIGHT Jim and Selena walk through the smashed glass doors of the tower block. It is extremely dark inside. Selena switches on a flashlight and illuminates the entrance hall. It is a mess. The floor is covered in broken glass and dried blood. The lift doors are jammed open, and inside is a dense bundle of rags - perhaps an old corpse, but impossible to tell, because the interior of the lift has been torched. It is black with carbon, and smoke-scarring runs up the outside wall. Selena moves the flashlight to the stairwell. There is a huge tangle of shopping trolleys running up the stairs. Selena gives one of the trolleys an exploratory tug. It shifts, but holds fast, meshed in with its neighbor. Then she puts a foot into one of the grates, and lifts herself up. Shining her light over the top of the tangle, she can see a gap along the top. JIM Let's hope we don't have to get out of here in a hurry. She begins to climb through. INT. TOWER BLOCK - NIGHT Jim and Selena move steadily and quietly up the stairwell, into the building. Reaching a next landing, they check around the corner before proceeding. Through a broken window, we can see that they are already high above most London buildings, and on the wall a sign reads: LEVEL 5. 24. SELENA Need a break? JIM (completely out of breath) No. You? SELENA No. They continue a few steps. JIM I do need a break, by the way. Selena nods. They stop on the stairs. Jim slips off his backpack and sits, pulling a face as he does so... SELENA What's up? JIM Nothing. She gives him a cut-the-crap expression. JIM I've got a headache. SELENA Bad? JIM Pretty bad. SELENA Why didn't you say something before? JIM Because I didn't think you'd give a shit. A moment, where it's unclear how Selena will react to this. Then she slips off her own backpack. SELENA (going through the bag) You've got no fat on you, and all you've had to eat is sugar. So you're crashing. Unfortunately, there isn't a lot we can do about that... 25. Selena starts to produce a wide selection of pills, looted from a chemist. SELENA ...except pump you full painkillers, and give you more sugar to eat. She holds up a bottle of codeine tablets, and passes it to Jim. SELENA As for the sugar: Lilt or Tango? JIM (CHEWING CODEINE) ...Do you have Sprite? SELENA Actually, I did have a can of Sprite, but... Suddenly there is a loud scream, coming from somewhere lower down the building. Jim and Selena both make a grab for their weapons. JIM Jesus! SELENA Quiet. The scream comes again. The noise is chilling, echoing up the empty stairwell. But there is something strange about it. The noise is human, but oddly autistic. It is held for slightly too long, and stops abruptly. SELENA That's an infected. Then, the sound of metal scraping, clattering the blockade. SELENA They're in. INT. SHOPPING TROLLEY BLOCKADE - NIGHT Two Infected, a Young Asian Guy and a Young White Guy, moving with amazing speed over the blockade. 26. INT. STAIRS - NIGHT Jim and Selena sprint up the stairs. Behind them, we can hear the Infected, giving chase, howling. They pass level eight, nine, ten... Jim is exhausted. SELENA Come on! JIM (out of breath, barely able to speak) I can't. Selena continues, and Jim looks over the edge of the stairwell, to the landing below... ...where the two Infected appear, tearing around the corner. INT. STAIRWELL - NIGHT Selena sprints up the stairs... and Jim sprints past her, in an amazing burst of energy and speed. They round another bend in the stairwell... ...then both Jim and Selena scream. Standing directly in front of them is a Man In Riot Cop Gear - helmet with full visor, gloves, a riot shield in one hand, and a length of lead pipe in the other. The Man lunges past both of them, barging past, where the Infected White Man has appeared at the stairwell. The Riot Gear Man swings his lead pipe and connects viciously with the White Man's head. The White Man falls backwards against the Asian Man. Both fall back down the stairs. The Riot Gear Man turns back to Jim and Selena. MAN Down the corridor! Flat 157! Jim and Selena are stunned, but start to run down the corridor. The Asian Man is coming back up the stairs. Jim looks back over his shoulder in time to see the Riot Gear Man deliver a massive blow to the Asian Man's head. 27. INT. CORRIDOR - NIGHT Jim and Selena run towards Flat 157. The door is open, but as they approach, it suddenly slams shut. JIM AND SELENA (hammering on the door) Let us in! GIRL (O.S.) Who is it? SELENA Let us in! The door opens a fraction, on the chain. The face of a girl appears. She is fourteen, pale, solemn-faced. GIRL Where's Dad? Jim looks back down the corridor. At the far end, the Man appears. He is holding the limp body of one of the Infected - and he tips it over the balcony, where it drops down the middle of the stairwell. MAN (CALLS BACK) It's okay, Hannah. Let them inside. The door closes, we hear the chain being slipped off, then it opens again. INT. FLAT - NIGHT Jim and Selena enter past the pale-faced girl. The flat is council, three-bed, sixteenth floor of the block. It has patterned wallpaper, and nice but boring furnishings. It is lit by candles. The entrance hall leads straight to the living room, which has French windows and a small balcony outside. On one wall, a framed photograph hangs, which shows the Man standing beside a black taxi cab. Next to him is a middle aged woman - presumably the Man's wife. Hannah sits at the cab's steering wheel, beaming. Another photo, beside, show Hannah sat in the seat of a go- kart. The Man follows Jim and Selena inside. 28. MAN Come in, come in. They follow the Man through to the living room, and Hannah recloses the front door, which has an impressive arrangement of locks and dead-bolts. INT. FLAT - LIVING ROOM - NIGHT In the living room, the fairy lights hang in the window, powered by a car battery. Lit by their glow, the Man goes through a careful ritual of shedding his gear, helped by Hannah. First, he lays down the riot shield. Then he puts the bloodsmeared lead pipe on a small white towel. Next, he removes his gloves - and places them beside the bar on the towel. Then he folds the towel over the weapon and gloves, and puts it beside the riot shield. Finally he removes the visored helmet. Jim and Selena watch him. They look pretty rattled, not really knowing what to expect. After the Man has finished shedding his gear, he turns. MAN So... I'm Frank, anyway. He extends his hand to Jim and Selena. Jim hesitates very briefly, then shakes it. JIM I'm Jim. SELENA Selena. Frank beams, and suddenly he seems much less frightening and imposing. If anything, he is just as nervous as Jim and Selena. FRANK Jim and Selena. Good to meet you. And this is my daughter, Hannah. (turning to Hannah) ...Come on, sweetheart. Say hello. Hannah takes a step into the room, but says nothing. FRANK So... so this is great. Just great. It calls for a celebration. 29. I'd say. Why don't you all sit down, and... Hannah, what have we got to offer? HANNAH (QUIETLY) We've got Mum's creme de menthe. An awkward beat. FRANK Yes, her creme de menthe. Great. Look, sit, please. Get comfortable. Sit tight while I get it. Frank exits. Selena, Jim and Hannah all stand, until Selena gestures at the sofa. SELENA Shall we? Jim and Selena take the sofa. Hannah stays standing. FRANK (O.S.) Where are the bloody glasses? HANNAH Middle cupboard. FRANK (O.S.) No! The good ones! This is a celebration! HANNAH Top cupboard. Another short, uncomfortable pause. Hannah looks at Jim and Selena from her position near the doorway. Her expression is blank and unreadable. JIM This is your place, then. Hannah nods. JIM It's nice. Hannah nods again. Frank re-enters. Frank is beaming, holding the creme de menthe, and four wine glasses. 30. FRANK There! I know it isn't much but... well, cheers! EXT. TOWER BLOCK - NIGHT The moon shines above the tower block. INT. FLAT - NIGHT Jim, Selena and Hannah all sit in the living room, sipping creme de menthe. Frank is disconnecting the fairy lights as he talks, and pulling the curtains closed, rather systematically checking for cracks along the edges. FRANK Normally we keep the windows covered at night, because the light attracts them. But when we saw your petrol station fire, we knew it had to be survivors... So we hooked up the Christmas tree lights. Like a beacon. Finished with the sofa, he sits on the armchair. SELENA We're grateful. FRANK Well, we're grateful you came. I was starting to really worry. Like I say, we haven't seen any sign of anyone normal for a while now. JIM There aren't any others in the building? Frank shakes his head. SELENA And you haven't seen any people outside? Frank's eyes flick to Hannah. FRANK We haven't left the block for more than two weeks. Stayed right here. Only sensible thing to do. Everyone who went out... 31. SELENA Didn't come back. FRANK And there's two hundred flats here. Most of them have a few cans of food, or cereal, or something. SELENA It's a good set-up. FRANK It isn't bad. He puts a hand on Hannah's shoulder, and gives it a squeeze. FRANK We've got by, haven't we? INT. BATHROOM - NIGHT

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E10 TRANSCRIPT: Read the rest of this entry » ----more---- Mark: Welcome back to the wonder science-based paganism. I'm your host Mark. And this is our hundredth episode. We are so excited. We have been, uh, talking with you and, uh, presenting our ideas and kicking them around between ourselves now for a hundred episodes, which is. a tremendous amount of talking. We're kind of shocked actually.  Yucca: Yeah. And it doesn't, I mean, it doesn't feel like that long on the other hand it really does feel like that long, but a hundred episodes. Mark: Yeah. averaging about 40 minutes a piece. So, you know, that's 4,000 minutes of, of a conversation and that is a long time. Uh, we'd have to do the math to figure out how many hours that is, but oh my God, that's, that's a lot of, that's a lot of talking.  Yucca: I had just under 67 hours.  Mark: Jeez.  Yucca: Yeah. So almost three days straight. Mark: Yep of continual conversations. So that's, that's a lot of time. We are so grateful to you, our listeners for continuing to listen to the podcast, and I'm glad that you're getting something out of it and hope that you continue to and we really appreciate those that have, uh, kind of bumped the podcast to others and encouraged them to check it out. We get new listeners all the time and it's just very encouraging. We have new members of the community that come in having first heard of, uh, these ideas and atheopagan ism and non-obvious, science-based paganism through this podcast. So, we're just really gratified at how well it's resonated once we started to do this.  Yucca: Yeah, thank you so much, everyone. And, and also thank you for the reviews and comments on platforms like iTunes, because that helps it get to more ears. We're not super concerned about, oh, how many stars did we get? But the more stars that we do get, the more people I get a chance to listen to it. And so we really appreciate all of those reviews that you have left us. So thank you. Mark: Uh, call out to feed spot, which keeps ranking us in the top 10 pagan podcasts.  Yucca: Yes. Mark: In our first year, we were number nine in the top 10. And then in our second year we were number eight in the top 10. So we're, we're very excited about that and really appreciate the, uh, the publicity.  Yucca: Uh, number seven at the moment  Mark: Are we  Yucca: we are. Yes. I don't think that will ever make it past, say drew to cast or anything like that. But, uh, yeah, there's some podcasts that's been that have been going for a long time, but it's amazing to think that, wow, we're in our third year of this. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. And we don't have as, as crazy good. A name as three pagans in a cat.  Yucca: Yes. Plenty of cats actually.  Mark: we do, yes. Yes. We have plenty of cats, but uh, but we didn't put it in the name of, our podcast.  Yucca: yeah. Mark: There you go anyway. Thank you everyone. This is a real milestone for us. When we started this, it was this great idea that Yucca had had. And I had been hoping to create a podcast for a long time. And when Yucca approached me. And floated this idea. I said, well, Hey, how about if we do this as a partnership? And it's just turned as it turned out to be a great way of producing a, a recorded piece or recorded channel?  Yucca: Yeah. And thank you. We've become really good friends over the last few years. I look forward to this every week. This is one of the highlights of my week is just to get out, to get to hang out and talk with mark about these cool topics and, and share with all of you guys. Mark: I really feel the same way. So thank you so much, Yucca. Okay. Well that said it's coming up on Equinox time and that is the topic for today's. Uh, podcast is, uh, the spring Equinox. And, uh,  Yucca: here we are. Mark: here we are, again, once again, this is our third episode to talk about the spring Equinox, uh, because we've just passed our two year anniversary as well, which kind of makes sense. I mean, there's 52 weeks in a year. So if you're two years. Plus a few weeks old, you get to a hundred episodes,  Yucca: That's right. Yeah.  Mark: because we took a few weeks off,  Yucca: Yeah. So sickness, you know, nothing major, but times where just life just wouldn't let it happen.  Mark: right?  Yucca: So, yeah. Mark: It amazes me that there have been as few of those as there have actually, because we're both pretty busy and we're doing a lot of stuff. And yet we've found the time for these conversations every weekend. So that's pretty cool.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So the spring Equinox, the Vernal Equinox, or what I call high spring, because where I live, that's really what's going on now. The Hills are all green with bright, new grass and wild flowers are blooming everywhere. There's tons of California poppies and the milkmaids are already gone and we've got Lupin that's blooming, and there's just. You know, the creeks are still running with water from the rains that we had, which is pretty much finished now. So it's, uh, it's a, uh, kind of a happy springy, hopeful time when life is waking up again and we get to see all the beautiful results of that.  Yucca: Yeah. And we were just talking about before hitting the record button here and at my home, my daughter and I were noticing that the male finches are getting their color back. They don't completely lose it in the winter, but he gets a little bit more dull, but now they're getting the color back and he can hear them singing. And it really, it's starting to feel like spring for us. We think of it as, as our first spring. And because it's kinda making, it's not quite made up its mind, whether it's spring or not, we'll have these real nice, warm, beautiful days and the animals will be out and the bees will even be out. And then it'll snow  Mark: Ah,  Yucca: drop down yesterday. It was, it was like 15 degrees. Which I think what's that like negative eight or nine in Celsius.  Mark: Celsius. Yeah.  Yucca: now, you know, I'm a little bit too warm in my short sleeves, so it's kind of a strange time of year, but it's feeling you could feel spring. It's really quite, it's a nice breath of fresh air. Mark: Yeah, I have some of that sort of paradoxical experience today actually it's the air. temperature is actually not all that warm. I think it's around 60 degrees. But in the sun it feels. Very temperate and wonderful. So I am in shorts for the first time this year, uh, pulled them out and put them on today. So that's kind of an exciting thing. I'm looking forward to a lot more days of shorts before days when it's so blazing hot, that even shorts is too much.  Yucca: Yeah, well where we are, we don't do shorts much at all because  Mark: Because you're at high altitude.  Yucca: So, well, for a lot of reasons, Prickly things. But the more you can just keep the sun off your skin, the cooler you're going to be. So, yeah. But also we should mention that the Equinox, this is something that has been observed all over the world by many, many cultures for millennia, because this is a point that has. Astronomical meeting as well. When we think about earth as a planet orbiting the sun we often people will say, oh, the Equinox is a point where there's equal, might a date. That's really only going to be the case. If you are on the equator. That's not going to be the case when you're at higher latitudes, whether those are north or south, but it is the point when the plane. Yeah. Imagine Earth's equator as a plane reaching out into space. And then also imagine another plane, which is the plane that we orbit around the sun on when we're crossing those two planes are touching each other. That's the moment in our orbit that we are around the sun. Mark: Right. And as you say, there have been many celebrations of that around the world. My favorite is that in Japan, the, uh, spring Equinox is happiness day, which I think we could use a lot more of in the world. So that's pretty cool thing. Happiness day. I don't know anything about how it gets celebrated, but I would imagine that it's got some. You know, contemporaneous quality with the blooming of cherry blossoms and you know, all of the wonderful spring things that we see, uh, around this time of year. So, we wanted to talk a little bit about how we celebrate this holiday. As I said, I consider this to be high Springs, so it's kind of. It's kind of the moment when we've stopped the dreaming and planning phase that winter and, uh, the cold months, uh, bring us, you know, where the ideas. Germinated or rather where they, the idea is just get, you know, created in the first place. And where plans are made about what you're seeking to do over the course of the, of the year. And then along comes. Hi spring and well, at least where I am the ground isn't frozen anymore. And you can start doing things like sprouting new plants for our garden and implementing those plans that you had previously. And it's, it's exciting. It's a time when work can begin. And I think that that's kind of a common thread that runs through celebrations of this time of year, all around the world. It's a time of waking. From the long sleep of winter and really kind of getting, going again.  Yucca: Yeah. Yeah, I definitely have those themes as well. It's also the time for us when we tilt our solar panels into their summer position. So we switched them twice a year and now it's enough that okay, we can tilt it, that it was really, really steep angle in the winter. And now we can lean it back and be catching that sun that's higher in the sky and just be like, we got to get to work. We also have a very brief period of time where we can get lots of work done outside and the rattlesnakes 70 woken up yet, because once they wake up, you've got to be a lot more careful about stomping around, outside. Mark: course, of course. Yeah. We have a lot of rattlesnakes in Sonoma county, but not really in the domesticated areas. So I don't really have to worry about that unless I'm going on a hike in the state park or something like that. The, and it's warm enough here that snakes are active  Yucca: Alrighty. Yeah.  Mark: Yeah. They're, they're already active. And, uh, and aggressive actually, cause they're hungry. They haven't, they haven't done much over the course of the winter. And now they're now they're out to get something.  Yucca: Oh, yeah. Well, our mammals are definitely waking up. We've got lots of little chipmunks and things and they don't do a true hibernation. Uh, they'll come out during the warm days. In the winter, just to kind of stock up on, on what they can find, but they've, they're definitely out and about, and having their little chipmunk wars and fighting with the other creatures. That's a lot of fun to watch that, but it's also the time where at least for my area this is when a lot of the birds are beginning their mating rituals. This is when, if you keep chickens. So is when a lot of delaying picks back up. Because many of them will lay less during the winter, just because of the light that's triggered by, you know, how much light there is. And we've never been the folks to want to put lights in their coops to try and force them to lay more. So this is a time that we start to think about, uh, the really celebrating the birds and the eggs. And so we've been gathering. We have several years worth of collected feathers that we gather, and we put them on, on little strings and hang them up around the house. Just to remember that whole part of the ecosystem. That is it's an important piece on its own, but it's also really critical for our survival. Mark: Sure. Yeah, And I mean, as you say, I mean, one of the reasons why celebrations at this time of year, or, uh, deeply associated with eggs is that it's the first high protein food source that's been available. Reg that's been abundantly available to people following the winter. Uh, and so people all over the world, people above the Arctic circle celebrate, you know, Eating eggs at this time gathering and eating eggs at this time of year. People. In Eastern and central Europe are known for the amazing decorations that they can do of the, the, the chicken, eggs and goose eggs, uh, particularly the Ukrainian punky. I have, uh, uh, a Ukrainian Bisaga goose egg which I'm going to be putting on my altar because of Ukraine as well as the season. So it's a. It's a very old tradition to celebrate birds and, uh, laying and eggs at this time of year.  Yucca: yeah. And bunnies because yep. The bunnies, they there. The other small mammals they're coming back out and, and doing their thing.  Mark: Right, right. Yep. And the opportunity to eat rabbit and eat eggs is something that was really a big deal too. European antecedents after living on stored root vegetables for months, uh,  Yucca: Well, mostly dried meat. It would have been a very, you know, they would have been in good state of Quito for, for a couple of months at that point. Yeah. And then coming out. Okay. Cause it's a cyclical. Now you can start using some of the green stuff again and oh, by the time we get to the autumn and then that's when we've got all the fruits and honey and all that good stuff, but it just it's, we know that things are still alive. And it's not that things are being reborn in the spring, but it's like, they're waking up, they're coming back and some things, yeah. Some things have very short periods of time, your annual plants. But that seed wasn't dead that whole time. It was just laying dormant in the ground, waiting for the right conditions to pop up and sprout. And we're still a few weeks from that, but it sounds like where you are. There that's what's happening  Mark: it's well underway. Yeah. And it's not a big surprise. That people in, you know, in prior times believed that, uh, things were coming back to life because they didn't really understand, you know, humans don't hibernate. We, we demand way too much energy to be able to do that. And so our understanding of the way that life worked was, you know, well, when you lie down and stop having activity, you're dead. So if you then stand up and start having activity again you you've come back to life. And so the metaphor of rebirth is something that's sewn very deeply into spring. And of course, Christians celebrate that with the resurrection. And, you know, there are all kinds of traditions that go along with that.  Yucca: And, you know, I suspect that I suspect that there was an intellectual understanding that there was a difference there, but it didn't matter because it was the, the two concepts were close enough that it might as well be that. And so why, why distinguish between that linguistically and, and in your stories and myth? Right. Because I think that we definitely know that, okay. The. You can see the barest slowly breathing, you know, that they're alive right there, but they're going to come back understanding what was happening with plants. I think might've been trickier in terms of, but we've been saving seeds, you know, for 10,000 years. So I would be cautious to, to sometimes we can act like, oh, the humans of today, we know so much more than the humans of the past. And I think we have access to more information. More quickly, but we weren't dumb. We were Mark: I, I, I wasn't in any way implying that that's what we were, but on the other hand, the, the concept of spontaneous generation was something that persisted for a couple of thousand years. Uh, the idea that that rotting neat, spontaneously generated maggots and flies, Yucca: right. Mark: You know, this.  Yucca: just something in the air. Yeah,  Mark: there was a magical process that happened that suddenly brought forth life from death. And it took a long time before we understood that that's not the way that things work. And there was this entire microbial world that we just couldn't see where things were taking place.  Yucca: the, yeah. And that way, when that idea was introduced, it was, uh, A lot of people that not like that  Mark: Oh, round  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: roundly disapproved.  Yucca: Yeah. Even when they were able to see it in those there's amazing early microscopes. There was still a lot of thought of, oh, this is trickery of some kinds of scam, you know? Mark: Well, and even as late as the mid 19th century the, the Roman idea of disease has spread by bad air, which of course in Latin is malaria. Was still very much the dominant paradigm in among scientists and this led to terrible problems. The the intake for drinking water in London was downstream of the outflow for their sewer.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And they had terrible cholera outbreaks and it wasn't until a scientist whose name escapes me, uh, put, you know, actually, and, and what was most frustrating about all this from, from today's standpoint is that they were collecting all the data that could have told them that that model didn't work. And they just weren't looking at the pattern because they were so sure that it was bad air that was causing disease.  Yucca: Right. Which is, which is onto something. In some circumstances it's not bad air, but that things can be past air. Yeah. Right. So sure you see that that's something that could have been observed in the past and worked in certain circumstances, but then we just applied it to everything and, you know, that's Mark: Because Galen.  Yucca: because Galen said, so. Mark: Because Galen, which was the explanation for pretty much everything in medicine for more than a thousand years, humans, according to anatomical texts, humans had gizzards. Up through the point where dissections were finally allowed. But until Vesuvius who started actually doing human dissections and drawings of what he was actually finding, it was believed that humans had gizzards because Galen had dissected chickens and had assumed that they had that humans had all of the same structural parts.  Yucca: What did they think we used? Stark is there's four.  Mark: They didn't ask that question.  Yucca: Okay. I was not familiar with this.  Mark: Yeah. It's so yeah, Galen was the standard for nearly 2000 years. It's really remarkable. There's a wonderful book called the ghost map, which is about the, the overthrowing of the, the bad air, uh, paradigm, uh, based on the cholera outbreaks in London. And, uh, it's, it's sort of a scientific. Well well-worth reading. I recommend it. Well that was  Yucca: we get, how do we get onto that,  Mark: oh, spontaneous generation and, uh, you know, life  Yucca: back to life waking up. Yeah. But the, so that, that reawakening is, is something that I think a lot of places, depending on what's happening in their, their climate, but that that's shared in a lot of different. celebrations is, Hey, we're waking up. Mark: Right. And so you'll see on the altars, you'll see flowers and eggs and symbols of rabbits, birds. And you know, it's, it's very common for example, to have some sort of a bird for a special dinner, like, uh, a chicken or a goose or something like that. Although I, Easter is associated with ham. I'm not quite sure how that fits into the model.  Yucca: Well in Lam.  Mark: oh, in lamb.  Yucca: Lam is, and that has the like, but that the lamb makes sense from just the mythology perspective of, you know, Jesus being the shepherd and all of that, but also just the timing. Wow. Right. So you would have a little bit earlier on the, the goats and the kids in the lambs would have been born, and then you're gonna end up, you can't support the whole herd. You've just had a whole bunch of them in, so probably you're going to eat some end up eating some of the males. And this is around the time that you do that. And then, you know, you keep your larger flock and you're going to later on, you'd have your button. But the lamb is that is a very different kind of taste and meat and experience. So it just lines up at the right time.  Mark: Yep.  Yucca: The ham, I think, I, I don't know, we'd have to check, but I think that's more of just an American tradition that that was what was available. But if someone knows the history to that Mark: we eat a lot less lamb and sheep here than people do in other parts of the world, including Europe. And it may just be that That just got swapped out. Yucca: That might be the case. Yeah. mean, that's our main, that's our main houses is household diet is bovine based. So lamb and beef and, and that sort of thing. So, but that's not super common for the whole, the overarching culture.  Mark: No.  Yucca: So. Mark: So we've talked about the kinds of things that you might find on altars for, uh, an Equinox celebration. The sorts of things that people do in rituals are often around the themes we've been discussing. Like, uh, how shall I put it revitalization? Yeah. It's, it's not, it's not actually coming back to life, but it's. The world is suddenly very busy. There's A lot of business taking place when a month before there wasn't so much, at least that you could see there may have been things going on under the ground and in the microbial realm, but mostly.  Yucca: guy. Mark: Right. It's slow. It's just very slow when things are cold, life is that way. And so now, as it gets warmer, suddenly there is a lot of work to be done because growth seasons are limited and food stores in seeds are limited, right? So they'd better get to work or they're not going to be strong and vital enough to reproduce.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So those. Those are themes that we can bring into our own lives. You know, the, the revitalization of our efforts, the sort of rejuvenation you know, a return to some youthfulness, right? Uh, some vigor of the kind that we see among those that are young. So we can Make commitments to various things that help us to feel vital and active. Uh, the weather has improved in most places. So people go out outside more and do more kind of outdoor, active activities. All of those are good things for celebrating the spring.  Yucca: Right. And another common theme. This one, for me isn't as a big of a thing, but for many people. The Equinox, but the equinoxes are a time of balance because you've got the balance of the night and the day. And although it's not going to be perfect, it's pretty close to being balanced. And so for some people, that's a really important element of it is to be thinking about, you know, the, the dark and the light in our lives and in our efforts and our experience. Mark: Yeah, there's a there's a temperance quality that many celebrate around this time of year. The, the idea being. Yes. Be enthusiastic, but also, uh, be responsible, right? Yes. Be uh, fun, loving, but also pay your bills, that kind of thing. Right. Because when you've been cooped up in. Winter conditions for months, it can be easy to go a little crazy once you're, Once you're allowed  Yucca: you can stretch again. Yeah. Mark: Uh, and so the, the temperance aspect, the the balance aspect of the equinoxes reminds us well. That's great, but. know, use your wisdom, you know, you haven't, you've accumulated some life experience. Go ahead and apply that. So that you're, you're still safe and, and take care of yourself.  Yucca: Yeah. So are there any particular traditions that you have for the Equinox? Mark: Well back in the before days, uh, before COVID, what we liked to do was to have a little gathering of friends and particularly friends who had kids and we would get together and dye eggs and make little, uh, Equinox? baskets with real grass, not plastic grass uh, which is the weirdest don't even get me started. And, uh, and candy and things like that. And we would play childhood games. We drink pink lemonade and play Candyland or chutes and ladders. You know, the, the kinds of things that people in elementary school, you know, can really enjoy. And so it was a day that was mostly focused around children. And that's also consistent with the thing that I do, which I've mentioned on the podcast before, which is to map the arc of a human life onto the wheel of the year. So that this time becomes the time. That's kind of about kids from the age of maybe three or four up until they're say 11 or 12, when they start becoming teenagers.  Yucca: So childhood really.  Mark: Yes  Yucca: Right. Cause before that, you know, before three, like yeah, there's pod sort of toddler, but it's, that's like infancy and toddlerhood, which is a little bit different.  Mark: That's right. That's right. And that actually is more the February Sabbath, right? The, you know, the, between the Equinox and the winter solstice, that's, that's much more around infancy and you know that the, the very beginnings of life, so. I, I like to do that for a couple of reasons. And one of them is that I think it's valuable to have a holiday that really centers children. The, I mean, to some degree you will can do that depending on how you celebrate it. But I think. It's it's healthy in its way to have a holiday that centers each cohort of life, whether it's, you know, kind of robust adulthood, you know, responsibility taking care of things, learning. Being in the full vigor of your adult vitality or whether it's being middle-aged or whether it's being an elder. And then of course you get to Hallows and that's around death and composting and the part of the cycle that we don't experience. I just, I, I really see value in. Uh, having celebrations like that around the course of the year. So because there are some of those phases where people feel invisible and unappreciated, particularly in middle age and then in, in elderhood. But also I think children can get shunned to decide quite a bit,  Yucca: Oh,  Mark: By gatherings of adults and it's. I think setting aside a time that specifically for kids that way is helpful.  Yucca: Yeah. Yeah. I really liked that. I remember you telling, telling us about that. Well, The, uh, so three equinoxes ago, actually, this was one of our first episodes. Right. So I think we had one, maybe there was the equinoxes, maybe our second episode  Mark: I think so.  Yucca: Yeah. So I think that's great. You know,  Mark: Yes. and then our fourth, our fourth was about COVID.  Yucca: Oh know,  Mark: So as soon as we started everything changed.  Yucca: right. And I remember us going, there's this thing that's kind of starting in the world. Do you think we should maybe mention this a little bit? Oh, let's see how it goes. Oh, wait.  Mark: Yeah,  Yucca: this is, this is here for awhile. This is  Mark: really here. Yep.  Yucca: That's yup. Mark: So, how about you? How do you, I, I hear that you celebrating the birds and the, you know, the avian communities what are the kinds of observances that you do for this time of year?  Yucca: Well, a lot of things as the family is starting to grow, you know, we've transitioned from what our personal private practices were as individuals to, you know, how do we do this as a family and, and the kids. The youngest is three now. So, and the oldest is five and a half. You gotta put that half. And she was very insistent on that, but that's,  Mark: about what,  Yucca: it's a big,  Mark: of that life of her life that is. Yucca: is. I remember being the  Mark: is a big percentage.  Yucca: Yes. So five and a half, very different than five. But you know, they are old enough to be participating in most things, you know, they can't carry as heavy things as we can, but, you know, they couldn't carry the stick while I carry the rest of the firewood or whatever it is. And there's just a lot that is, is happening in the world in terms of. I'm not talking about the world is in town and city and stuff, but just in terms of like our little piece of land and all the things that need to happen. And so there's just a lot of doing this time of year that started doing and observing, and we did several fires. We have a little campfire in the winter, but it was a lot harder to do that when it was really cold. And so, you know, we're starting to have some nights where we can be out and at the, the fire again, and that sort of thing, and just finding, finding little pieces of stuff and and it's still just a tad early for the planting for us, but. Week after March, we'll probably start some of our starts inside that need a long time, like the tomatoes, for instance, any of the tomatoes and peppers and things like that, that really need a long, uh, melons don't tend to do very well here. But if we were to do melons, we'd start the melons, that sort of thing. So the greenhouse is getting ready to go and and it's. That time where, like you were saying, the planning part is done now it's the now it's like, get going, start doing. Yeah, but then we still have a few days where, oh, sort of cold we'll come back and you can just snuggle in with the cup of cocoa and just be like, okay, I don't have to do anything today. It's too miserable out there. That's really what it is for us and then loving having the feathers everywhere. That's just really kind of, and we've tied a few little bells to some of them, so we'll have like a string with feathers on it and a bell on the bottom. And sometimes when you walk by the feathers, we'll just move in the air. And the cat has gotten quite a few of them. So someone, if you really like one of the feathers, you've got to put it out of reach of the cat. Cause he'll  Mark: see.  Yucca: So it's just a lovely, lovely. Yeah. Mark: That's wonderful. Yeah. I really, I really liked the sound of that. Yeah. I'm reminded when you talk about your winter fires, those are the fires where the front half of you is warm in the back. Half of you is freezing.  Yucca: Yeah, and I am one of those people gets cold really easily. I don't have a lot on me. So I put this a ridiculous amount of blankets. We have some outdoor blankets so that we can just be a bundle of blankets. And even then it's like, okay, how close can I get to the fire safely with all of my blankets? And then the smoke, like the wind changes and goes in your face and then switch to the other chair, fall asleep. Mark: Right. Yeah. Be because inevitably,  Yucca: Oh, yeah, Mark: it just does that. Yeah, I'm thinking of burning a fire in my fire pit for the actual Equinox day. I'm going to be doing a little ritual with uh, with the local cups. group, covenant of Unitarian Universalist pagans Yucca: just a Mark: in my local area. That's, that's a national network of Unitarian Keegan. Groups.  Yucca: Folks. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. And, uh, I'm, I'm very uninterested in Unitarianism itself. I like their values a lot, but the, the, the ear and not alive enough for me. Not energetic and, you know, kind of body-based uh, so many of the things that we've talked about, I mean, I go to a U a T Unitarian service and I just want to take my clothes off and start beating a drum. It's like, come on people be the animals now.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And you know, a lot of that is because many people who are who are Unitarians are atheists or agnostics, and they're very sort of heady and intellectual. And the reason that they're doing Unitarianism is because it's very open-minded and it has very progressive values and they're very activist in their orientation. So there's, there's a lot of good reasons for people to be interested in that, Yucca: And they're very widespread too. You can, and a lot of different communities that you can find a group. Yeah. Mark: So I'll be doing that. But I think that when I get home, I'm probably going to light a little fire and sit on my patio and maybe I'll drink a non-alcoholic beer. I found one that I really like. Yeah, there's actually a non-alcoholic beer. That's good. It's made by log Anitas and it's called IPNA for non alcoholic.  Yucca: Okay. Mark: Uh, so it's, uh, that's what I've been drinking lately. I am now 10 weeks into my six months alcohol fast. So yeah. Yeah, it's kind of a, kind of a good thing. I've lost weight. Of course, because alcohol  Yucca: Has a lot. Mark: there's, there's no more empty calorie than an alcoholic calorie.  Yucca: Yeah. And even a small amount. It's not easy on your liver. Yeah.  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: So that whole, the whole system. Yeah. So, Do you w in your new home do you have a space? You talked about the patio. Is there plenty of something that's built in or do you have one of those little, what are they called? Like the Roman fire pits, like the  Mark: Well, it's not built in no, it's, uh, it's a, uh, an iron frame was sort of a bowl.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And then there's also a sparker rester, which is a grill that can go over the top of it to keep sparks from flying off, which I would use later in the year. I'm not very worried about fire now, but later in the year I would use it because we've had a lot of wildfires here and people are pretty twitchy about fire.  Yucca: Right. Yeah. We ha we have a similar set up here to an area that's cleared. There's no trees for. Several several meters, at least and in the middle, and then we've got the bowl that it sits in and the little screen like you're talking about, but I mean, the screen we don't use until a little bit later in the fire, because. You have to lift it off and put your word in. And so when you're tending to it. Yeah, but just, you know, we used a lot of safety around that and the fire does not get left. And it's bad for the iron bowl, but we pour water on it afterwards too.  Mark: Yeah,  Yucca: rested one out that way. Cut holes in the bottom  Mark: in a place where the rain can drip on it. So it's getting a little fin. We might have to get another one sometime soon.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: But it's really important to have a place where you can have a fire. I it's just. Of all the pig and things. I think having a fire is pretty important.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So what else do we have for, for talking about the Equinox season?  Yucca: Just excited that we're here. There's new things beginning. Actually you have a, a new thing coming up that listeners could be involved  Mark: that's right. Thank you for reminding me. I am teaching a class starting on the 27th of March and it will be three 90 minute sessions every other Sunday. So.  Yucca: this is live class right over, over, zoom. Mark: live a live class over zoom. The title of the class is atheopagan is the clerics path. And so the focus it'll go into, you know, what atheopagan. Perspectives on the world and all that kind of stuff. But the main focus is really on. If you decide that you want to become an ordained cleric, which you can do at the atheopagan society website for free, you just have to indicate that you endorse the atheopagan principles. But that is a community service role. And so this class is about the kinds of things that you can do as a cleric. Like. How to design rituals for weddings or funerals, how to do rites of passage how to do a ministerial counseling for people and how to know when to refer, to refer someone to a professional how to, uh, do prison ministry or, uh, I don't like that word ministry.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Prison outreach say, you know, to support people that are being pagans or atheists or both in prisons or in hospices or in hospitals, all that kind of stuff. So it's going to be a really cool class. I'm excited about it. And it's 75 bucks for the whole class. And there are details about it on the atheopagan website, which is atheopagan ism.org. Uh, if you're in the Facebook group, there's also an event, uh, that you can look for, uh, that will give you all the details about it. And, uh, I hope you'll join us. I, uh, I've already got a bunch of registrants and I think it's going to be a really cool class. So hope that if that's something that interests you, that you'll you'll come on.  Yucca: And since it's a, a live class, you get a chance to participate, right. This isn't just texting back and forth. So when you have questions and you want clarifications then mark, you can be responding at an organic and, you know, awakened alive way thinking that's the spring. Yeah. Mark: And the sessions are going to be recorded. So, what that will do is if you have to miss a session, we'll just send you a link and you can then watch the, the session that you missed. So, you know, I just, and, and there will be time, you know, for me to help you with your personal practice, if that's something that you're interested in we. I just, I think it's going to be a really cool thing. I'm excited about it. I'm designing the participant packet now and I just, I think it's going to be really cool. So.  Yucca: Yeah. Sounds like a ton of fun. So, and will you tell us again where, where everyone can find Mark: Yeah, you can find information about it. There's a post on the blog, the atheopagan blog, which is atheopagan aneurysm.org or in the Facebook group, there is an event in, in the group that you can look for the clerics path. If. You're just curious about it and can't remember those things or can't find it, go ahead and send us an email at the podcast email address and I will respond to it. And that. is the wonder podcast queues@gmail.com. The wonder podcast, Q s@gmail.com. And I look forward to hearing.  Yucca: Yeah, and we love hearing from all of you. We've gotten some amazing emails over the years, and if you have ideas and suggestions for our next hundred podcasts we'd really love to, to hear. Mark: We certainly would. Yes. And thanks so much to the folks that have written in thus far. We, we read everything that gets sent to us and we've, uh, themed some shows on ideas that people have sent us. And pretty soon coming up in may, we're going to do a live podcast broadcast from. From the century retreat, which is the atheopagan gathering that's happening in Colorado Springs. And so during the lunch break on one of the days, we're going to broadcast from there and we can interview people about the experience they're having a retreat and all that kind of stuff. So you'll be able to be plugged in. Even if you aren't able to go to the event itself.  Yucca: Yeah, which still has just a few spots, right? Mark: Yeah. I, I think we've got eight spots left. That's the last that I heard was that we had eight spots.  Yucca: So if you're interested and you've been holding off and now is the time to register. Mark: Right. Yeah. And it's a very affordable event. I mean, the event itself with lodging and meals comes in at around $300. If you're staying in your accommodations, that you can, you can pay for a private room, that kind of stuff. It ends up costing more, but. You know, That's a hundred dollars a day for all this wonderful programming activity and you do of course, have to get yourself to Colorado Springs. That's that's, that's the tricky part,  Yucca: that is near Denver. If you're flying or, you know,  Mark: as I understood.  Yucca: if you're driving.  Mark: Right. As I understand it, it's about another $35. One way to go from Denver to Colorado Springs area. That's that's what I heard. So. I'm not, not that much to get very close. And the Colorado Springs airport is about 30 minutes away by Lyft from the retreat center. Costs about $33, uh, for a Lyft is my understanding. So it's very doable. And we hope to see you there.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: In the meantime, Thank you so much for being a part of the first hundred episodes of the wonder science-based paganism. And we are delighted to be a part of your life. Thanks so much. Yucca: Thank you everyone.

Overview Mark has been very involved in the indie publishing scene. He helped early on with Kobo Writing Life and has been part of the improvements at Draft 2 Digital. He talks at conventions and has multiple books for writers, including his latest which he co-authored with Joanna Penn (Joanna's mother Jacqui was on episode 27 and gave me the idea to do a split podcast - https://www.discoveredwordsmiths.com/2020/11/24/episode-27a-penny-appleton-love-second-time-around/). Book https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08Z38D9L7/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B08Z38D9L7&linkCode=as2&tag=saschneider-20&linkId=adb3db77cabd8501941ab577ea320c78 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B094RBGNYM/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B094RBGNYM&linkCode=as2&tag=saschneider-20&linkId=d3b855f702642ae735a2f067c691a7b6 YouTube https://youtu.be/sDetjw740_M Transcript [00:00:00] Mark: Are you working on your author career, but struggling to get that first book published, does the goal of being an author seem too lofty or thoughts of having multiple books and making a full-time living are as fantastical as living in Cinderella's castle. Welcome to discovered wordsmiths a podcast where aspiring authors can be. Join Stephen Schneider is he finds and talks to authors. You may not know, but authors that have gotten their book on the author career path here, what they've done to get there and where they want to go. Now, settle back. It's time for a bit of inspiration and advice. Come listen to today's discovered wordsmith. [00:00:48] Stephen: All right, so we'll just roll it. I'll edit here. We'll talk a little bit author stuff and some eat 2d and all that, but [00:00:54] Mark: whatever. Should I dress up for that? Should I put on a [00:00:57] Stephen: sports coat? I do most things. Casual listening [00:01:00] that expects sport coats. Come on. I did a whole podcast with something in my teeth, so [00:01:05] Mark: I can just quickly do this. There [00:01:07] Stephen: you go. The transformation [00:01:09] Mark: there, dress [00:01:09] Stephen: it up a little. Now you're more dressed than. Uh, all right. So mark, now that you're ready for the important business side of things, let's talk a little bit about your writing in that. So when you write what services and software do you like to use? So [00:01:23] Mark: at the core, basic, I start with word that's. How, where I compose most of my manuscripts, I will then use a combination of services. I am familiar enough with book layouts. When I do it myself, I ended up getting it into the. I use InDesign. My book covers will come from typically a professional designer who does the front cover, but I can design the rest of it myself, because I used to run it in service. I know how to do this. And I do the interior in, through Adobe as well for the layout when I'm not working with. And yeah, I will publish direct Kendall. Um, when I'm doing it myself, I go to Kindle direct publishing. I will [00:02:00] go to Kobo writing life. Having helped create that platform. I'm a little bit partial to it, right. And I've long been using draft to digital for distribution and even my conversion. So what I'll do is I'll take the word document, use draft digital to convert it, download my EPUB from there, and then upload that to Kendall and Kobo and Google play. Of course, where I go direct. Those are the four major platforms that I use for pretty much all my books all. Then I still have my Canadian werewolf series. For example, I have a friend of mine. Who's a science fiction writer, Canadian science fiction writer, Scott Overton, who is a retired radio personality. Scott does the audio books for Canadian werewolf. So I pay him for those and I use find a way voices to distribute the audio book. So I, and then I'll use. Ingram spark to get the hardcover distributed, why they usually do a hardcover,

Overview Mark is well known in the indie publishing world. He has worked with Kobo, Draft 2 Digital, co-written with Joanna Penn, and been on more podcasts than I can count. Today, I am very excited that he is on Discovered Wordsmiths talking about his fiction book series - Canadian Werewolf. If you're looking for something with some paranormal and a bit of humor, this could be your book. Of course, with Mark, we also have a bit of comic book talk and some dad jokes. :) His Book https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08WPCT941/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B08WPCT941&linkCode=as2&tag=saschneider-20&linkId=70a94688adbf5a55999eb0d24a613081 Favorites https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1302923730/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1302923730&linkCode=as2&tag=saschneider-20&linkId=dc86deb08a321c978076c72800839c42 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0042JSMQ4/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B0042JSMQ4&linkCode=as2&tag=saschneider-20&linkId=fdc7b554f7f025d0f352d1bee83746de https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08WLRG1L2/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B08WLRG1L2&linkCode=as2&tag=saschneider-20&linkId=ba346c0bd921b1b3b47aff64276f6051 YouTube Transcript [00:00:00] Mark: Are you working on your author career, but struggling to get that first book published, does the goal of being an author seem too lofty or thoughts of having multiple books and making a full-time living are as fantastical as living in Cinderella's castle. Welcome to discovered wordsmiths a podcast where aspiring authors can be heard. Join Stephen Schneider is he finds and talks to authors. You may not know, but authors that have gotten their book on the author career path here, what they've done to get there and where they want to go. Now, settle back. It's time for a bit of inspiration and advice. Come listen to today's discovered [00:00:44] Stephen: wordsmith. Welcome to episode 94 of discovered word Smiths. And I'm very excited today because I eman talking to mark Leslie. Now, if you are an author, you probably recognize that name. [00:01:00] And mark is well-known in the author community. He has worked with Kobo. He's worked with draft, the digital he's been on just about every podcast out there. So have him on my podcast. Uh, it was very exciting. If you are an author and know of mark, uh, this'll be an interesting talk because we discuss his fiction books, which you don't hear very often on other podcasts. So keep listening, mark has done way more than just the things you may already know him about. If you're a reader, like many of the authors on here, mark is probably someone you don't know, but you may be interested in his books. So keep listening. I'm not going to hold you up, uh, with me babbling, because I'm very excited to get to the interview. So here's what. All right. I'm very excited today. Uh, for this episode of discovered wordsmiths. Cause I have mark Leslie LaFave. Did I pronounce that correctly? [00:01:55] Mark: That's amazing. I haven't, you know why I usually lock LaFave off? When I write my face, [00:01:59] Stephen: I [00:02:00] had to go listen to everybody. Else's podcasts that you've been on to make sure I pronounced it correctly using one of those. But a lot of people listening probably already know who you are, but tell us a little bit about you outside of the whole publishing writing. [00:02:16] Mark: Yeah. So I, I'm a book nerd through and through. I grew up reading Spider-Man comic books. If that's not obvious from what I'm wearing and just reading in general, I just loved books. I was an only child. I spent a lot of time in my imagination making up stories and I loved reading or reading books, reading comics, and still do to this day. And I always knew I wanted to be a writer. So that was something that was a passion I had from my early teens.

Premier of Ontario Doug Ford admits that the Vaccine Passport Program was a massive failure. Ends it. Patrick shares the recent Canadian Public Opinion poll concerning COVID restrictions Pfizer expects $54 billion in 2022 sales on Covid vaccine and treatment pill Matt - I need your opinion on baptizing a baby before they are moved to the NICU. Would this be a case for an emergency Baptism by a lay person? Dan - The priest is adding 'Jesus I trust in you' at the consecration. Does this invalidate the consecration? Mark - Are you familiar with the letter from Cardinal Ratzinger to Pope John Paul II on the tyranny of Relativism? Seems related to what we are discussing and what is going on in the world, that tolerance will be preached until the powers that be become the most intolerant of all. Paul - What's the substantive difference between donating to the truckers and donating to RR? Julie - Do you have any info on what Bernie Sanders thinks of Big Pharma and vaccine mandates? Did you know that meat is racist?!

Mark - Are there any circumstances where God would allow divorce? Eli - Is it ok to receive the Eucharist while cohabitating? Patrick recommends the book, “Annulments in the Catholic Church” by Edward Peters Laura - What is your opinion on a comment from a priest about discussing God's Church as a whole and not just the Catholic Church? Brian - Do you have any proof that the Bible was relevant in the life of the Church prior to the protestant reformation? Ronnie - Statement on what the Church teaches Miles - How do I approach my nephew who was baptized but then fell away from the Church? Long Island Nurses Accused of Making $1.5 Million in Fake Vaccine Card Scheme Carol Anne - Follow up question from last week about culpability about unwanted sinful thoughts.

"Technology is easy: Everyone is doing it, culture is the challenge” says retired Navy Chief, now Defense Consultant, & Cyber Educator at Deloitte, Katy Craig. When it comes to implementing new technology, a trusting environment can make all the difference. In this episode, Carolyn and Mark learn why prioritizing people is always a step in the right direction. Episode Table of Contents[00:48] Helping Teams Accelerate [09:34] The Point of the Mission [20:08] Better Minds on People Problem [29:09] Technology Is Transforming People Problem Episode Links and Resources Helping Teams AccelerateCarolyn: Our guest today is https://www.linkedin.com/in/katycraig/ (Katy Craig), a retired Navy chief. She's now a defense consultant and cyber educator at Deloitte. We're going to talk about her work, helping teams accelerate to deliver value safely and securely to customers. She provides guidance on tools, technologies, and methods such as cloud security, agile methods, SDX, Zero Trust, and DevOps practices. One of my favorite topics and Mark's as well, is shifting security left for DevSecOps and continuous everything. Today, we're going to dial into how she helps teams embrace a DevSecOps culture, some of the biggest pitfalls, as well as best practices. I read something on your bio and I was like, "I love that!" You say in your bio, "Technology is easy. Everyone is doing it. Culture is the challenge and where I can help most." Talk to us about that. Katy: I'm trying to think if I can legally hashtag it, the people, s**. I actually Googled it. Somebody did back in the '90s after President Clinton said, "It's the economy, s**." Somebody actually said, "It's the people, s**." But I want to bring it back into the lexicon and into the vernacular. Because a lot of these buzzwords that we're hearing in the zeitgeist, DevOps, I need to go buy some agile. We're going to do some DevOps. They're selling Zero Trust, let's go buy that. It is rarely turnkey solutions out of the box. It's rarely the technology that all these vendors are selling on the internet and promising it's going to be the panacea. People Problem You Have to Deal WithKaty: No matter how great your tool, your weapon, or your process, if the people don't embrace it, they aren't brought along, and aren't included in deciding that's the tool we're going to use, that's the process we're going to embrace, they're going to fight you. They're not going to adopt it. Maybe even in a bureaucracy, they might eventually go along to get along, but it will be delayed. It will be less of a quality approach. It's always going to come down to the people. We always have to remember that our reason for being here, for being in tech, for doing all this work has to come back to the people. I always go back to Gene Roddenberry and Star Trek. I'm a Trekker, sort of directive. You can do no harm.What are the Boston Dynamics people doing? I worry about the robots. It's got to come back to the people. If we're doing this tech and pursuing all these areas, it's got to come back to: is it going to be good for the people? Is it going to make our lives better, make the planet better, or our country better? That's why I say, "You know what, everybody's out there peddling technology. Promising that if you install my platform, I'm going to solve all your cyber problems." It's just not true. Mark: Are you talking about the mission? Or are you talking about getting the people on board with the technology to be able to leverage and use it? Is it the people as it relates to the mission, or is it the people as it relates to getting them on board with the technology, and how it can help them? Unique People Problem of the MilitaryKaty: It does go to the unique problem of military teams, for example. We have administrative control and operational control. Then we have organizations in the military that acquire their technology. They decide whether to make or buy the technology to serve the warfighters

Over the 3 years following this global recession spurred by COVID-19, we'll see a spike in bankruptcies, business dealings gone south, divorces, and all kinds of other unfortunate situations that may result in lawsuits. Those parties may turn around to blame their lawyers. Plus, lawyers and their staff are more likely to make mistakes right now in these high stress times. So, how do we brace for impact? Communication and kindness may be the best medicine. ALPS Underwriting Manager Leah Gooley and Mark Bassingthwaighte discuss their concerns, thoughts, and practice tips to help you prepare for the post-COVID economy. Transcript:  MARK BASSINGTHWAIGHTE: Hello, I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the risk manager here at ALPS, and welcome to the latest episode of ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. Once again, I'm so delighted to have as my guest, Leah Gooley, who is the underwriting manager. I don't know if all of you know this, Leah is in Missoula, in the beautiful historic building, and I telecommute. I've been telecommuting for many years over in Billings, so maybe I should ask real quickly, are we still having a beautiful day in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana? We're getting into August here, but I could see a little light coming in. LEAH GOOLEY: It's beautiful and sunny, a little cloudy, but I'll take that over the snow that we know is coming. MARK: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I really wanted to have Leah join me for a conversation. I'll be honest and say, and I don't know about you, Leah, and I suspect many of our listeners might feel similar to what I'm about to say, but I am tired of COVID-19 news. LEAH: Amen. MARK: It's just, but COVID-19, and what has happened in terms of not just a legal profession, but to everybody, has changed some things. We were talking prior to going into this, in terms of internal to ALPS, some general concerns looking at virtual practice firms and trying to just work through, do they represent unique interests? Is there something different? We've been having some interesting discussions about that, and then COVID-19. Boy, now teams, like everybody we insure, is a virtual firm and I thought it'd be fun to do just sit down and share some of our thoughts, concerns, and even some practice tips. MARK: That's what we're going to do, folks. We're going to start out just trying to identify some of the concerns that we see in general. Leah, perhaps I'll jump in here and start this, but feel free to come in at any point. Really, I think it's becoming quite clear, not just here in the United States, but globally, we are in a recession. Who knows how this is going to continue to evolve, but that's important because if you look historically at the numbers, claims are going to spike for about three years post-recession, in terms of legal malpractice claims. And then, they'll start to return slowly to normal, about five years out. We are anticipating not just here at ALPS, but within the industry that there's going to be a spike in claims. MARK: I would anticipate, too, that we're going to see a spike in severity. Some things to be concerned about, and we're going to try to visit why, but I think my initial thoughts is to what drives some of this, you think about business dealings and bankruptcies and divorces and all kinds, but when business dealings, in particular, go south and look at all the companies suing their insurers for the business interruption coverage that on most of these policies isn't there, desperate times call for desperate measures. They're going to turn into and try to blame lawyers and some of these claims, if nothing else, all the care's going to be involved in trying to defend these where we are contractually obligated to. I think that's almost a given, lawyers and staff are going to make mistakes in high-stress times. MARK: Boy, are we in a high-stress time? This rapid move to cloud computing to telecommuting from home, policies and procedures have changed, maybe not completely thought through. It was a very rapid adjustment, so I think there's going to be just normal missteps that occur. In addition, I think just again, the stress itself we're all under. I'm surprised, I would guess this is true for you, Leah, in terms of your own neighborhood, but we have a number of people in the neighborhood that I truly, I mean, not trying to overstate it, are almost in a daily state of panic, out of fear of what could happen, not wanting to catch the virus and things, and when so much of our energy is being devoted to just trying to go to the grocery store without exposing ourselves, I think that's a concern. MARK: At the same time, your clients are under the same stresses, the same thing. Are they going to question their own decisions down the road? Why didn't you prevent me from doing this stupid thing that I did? There's a lot of stuff going on here. I'm also going to talk about the closures of courthouses and all the changes in just the local rules, court rules, procedures, filing deadlines, being extended. There's just so many things up in the air, very difficult to stay on top of. Finally, another thought I have is, I had a call this morning from another lawyer on the East coast, sharing some concerns along these lines. Basically it's, "I'm owed a lot of money, but they don't have, everybody's been furloughed that they can't pay it." Here's another conundrum, how aggressive do you get with collection actions? Do you even try, because we all know particularly fee suits, bringing about often malpractice, counterclaims and whatnot? There's just a couple of thoughts of mine, just right off the top of my head coming into this, so that's your risk manager's response. How about an underwriter's response? What kind of concerns do you have? LEAH: Along those same lines, we tend to see, like you had mentioned, claims starting to spike about three years into the process. This pandemic is new. It's a culmination of a lot of different stressors for both working from home, adjusting quickly, which frankly, the law profession has trouble doing because they're meaty and it's a very weighty, important system of ours. And so, having to make this quick transition, both through the courts and individual law firms, and then like you had mentioned, customers and clients trying to adapt to those changes as well, while balancing working from home, their kids, and trying to manage their businesses under stressful time. We do anticipate certain trends within certain areas of practice. You can imagine divorces may be on the rise as well as marriages, like you said, and then, folks looking back. Overall from an underwriting perspective, trying to see where you sit individually, where your area of specialty lies, and sticking to that area of specialty, knowing how some of those changes come about, and how you can adapt to that in this pandemic. That's a really important aspect to all of this. MARK: Yeah. One of the things I think is worth noting for our listeners, I brought up this whole point of, we can anticipate due to stress, financial stress, fear, all of the things going on, that missteps will occur as a result. I can share, and I would assume you may have had one or two more conversations than me, but our claims attorneys are already seeing claims that are missteps that occurred post this work-from-home transition. We are already seeing these types of claims start to come in, not unexpected. MARK: Let me jump. I think we've set the stage reasonably well, but what's more interesting to me, and I would anticipate our listeners is, these virtual practice/work-from-home risks that we see, what are your thoughts in terms of trying to manage that? Maybe come at it from a concern and a management piece. I could anticipate for instance, because I know we've talked about this in the past, but supervision. What's your concern with supervision and what are your thoughts about if I'm a law firm wanting to be insured? What can I share? What helps ease your mind? You see where I'm going? How can I present as a good risk in light of this change? LEAH: Yeah, that is a great question. Supervision amongst law firms has always been a hot topic for underwriters. This isn't a new issue, but it's certainly more prevalent now that COVID has moved more folks to working from home. Supervision in general, it's just knowing what you, your partners, your associates, your employees are doing on a daily basis, and understanding that if there are questions, if you're a collaborative law firm, that you have the ability to reach out and talk through those issues and not feel like you're on an island, like you need to make a decision in isolation, and so, that expressing how you typically manage either those daily conversations, you manage the big picture conversations that happen for your firm. That kind of thing is interesting for the underwriter and important, I think, for us to understand that you are cognizant of your risks in the firm that way. MARK: Am I incorrect in what I hear you saying, at least to some degree here, is are we really talking a little bit about wellness, checking in and trying to keep people connected? Is that where you're focusing with this checking in daily or it's a procedural thing? Maybe it's both, I don't know. LEAH: Yeah. Yeah. I would see it as both, kind of two prongs your wellness, and that's a great point to bring up., That there's the wellness for individual attorneys really is just keeping everybody connected and engaged and it has to become more of a top of mind activity amongst the firm. The other side of that is the supervision and making sure that the work product itself is available for conversation. Perhaps you set up Zoom office hours, if you and your staff are spread across, so that they know a specific time that they can get ahold of you, or you have with your team a specific daily meeting time that you're going to check in and answer questions, or even just engage in that office chit chat that you normally don't get to when everybody's working from home. We miss that. MARK: Yeah. Yeah. I love that you brought that up because I have been, as you know, telecommuting. I'm 300 and what, 50 miles away from the mothership here, and longterm telecommuting can work some people and for others, it really doesn't. I think one of the reasons that it doesn't is this connection piece, the water cooler conversation, or sharing a cup of coffee in a break room or those kinds of things. That was a hard transition for me. What was so interesting, the shift to work-from-home in my world, in terms of just me personally, was a nonevent. I'm already there, but the company's response was night and day game changer for myself and a few others that have been longterm remote employees, because we are now far more engaged. MARK: You and I are having this discussion. Everybody hears the audio, but we're watching each other. We're on Microsoft Teams. That we have used, I think, as a company in a very effective way, to maintain engagement amongst the Alps community in terms of the workforce. As a risk manager, I absolutely agree with you. I think supervision is important from this connectivity piece, this wellness piece. And, might I add, the challenge with this supervision wellness angle is that when we aren't together day to day, it's a little more difficult to really, unless we're using video and having some regular conversations to understand, if you and I share office space, you're going to pick up that I'm depressed or that I'm struggling in person much more quickly and more easily. And so, I think it's important if this work-from-home goes longterm and maybe permanent for some, we need to keep these issues in mind. MARK: I now switch back. In terms of process, I described this as the accountability problem, and I just invite lawyers, from administrators and those in charge in terms of internal processes, do you need to review and perhaps even redesign what you're doing? We had a situation I learned about where everybody left, worked from home at a law firm, but FedEx was still coming, and so, what they did is put a cardboard box outside a locked front door and a sign, 'FedEx drop and pick up from here' and a little arrow. There are envelopes in here for FedEx to pick up. Now you know there are confidential information in there. You just sit here and go, what are you thinking? I get the panic that that might need to happen for a day or so. That's what the best idea. I'd like to see something else, but that cannot be permanent. MARK: I invite folks that are listening again, to think about your calendaring process, the mail process, client communication, file documentation. Are we really keeping all of our files current? Are we maintaining client competences? For instance, fold this over into a professionalism piece, but you have to have a workspace that the kids aren't running back and forth in the background in the PJs and having a water balloon fight while you're trying to meet with your client. That just can't happen. It's a professionalism issue, but it's also, they can't and should never have access to the home computer that you're using for work, those kinds of things. There's some thoughts on trying to manage some of this. Do you have other things that you'd like to add to this one? LEAH: Well, let's talk about what you had said, reinvisioning what your processes are. As you look at that, you've moved as a firm, say to a part-time work-from-home, due to COVID. Maybe you want to continue that, maybe that makes sense for your firm. And so, it's a good opportunity for you to look at what new technology is out there, what new opportunities you have to create efficiency for your law firm to meet your client's needs. And then, also just making sure as you make those shifts, that that tech technology training takes place, that people are really comfortable with it. Again, circling back to the wellness. Are you able to use it and actually see each other on Teams and have those connections and feel comfortable in a client meeting to be able to communicate what you need to communicate to them? Keeping top of mind on all the new stuff coming out, just rolling out, based on COVID. There's so many new opportunities every day. MARK: Yeah. Yeah. There really are. I've got to do a jump shift here. You know me, I go off on these tangents at times. I love the comment about, again, looking at processes, but also reviewing and trying to understand the technology. More and more I've been talking about, lawyers are to understand the benefits and risks associated with relevant technology. We're always very good about the benefits, risks aren't so as obvious, and you really need to take some time. It's just by way of example, and it's just trying to underscore the importance of reviewing your processes and really looking at everything. Let's say you and our adverse attorneys representing adverse parties, and we're in a meeting and we're all talking, I set this up, I can control whether people are recording this from the platform, but people can also just put up their phone and record. I can't do everything to prevent things from being recorded. MARK: It's just one crazy example of, we need to think through the ramifications of what we're doing and the technology, how we're using it. Hear me clearly. There's absolutely nothing wrong and it's not incompetent or anything to use Zoom or Teams, but we have to understand the benefits and the risks and address them. Same might be with a collaborative calendar thing that's out on the web. It's about just trying to maintain client confidences and maintaining the privacy of the data and whatnot. MARK: I'd like to take a moment and share a couple of specific risk management tips that are important to me. If you have other tips to add here, please, please, again, jump in. MARK: I want to share just, again, some obvious things that come to my mind from a risk perspective. This hopefully goes without saying, but I think we see this all the time. COVID in situations like this, in terms of recessions and whatnot, you're going to see this type of claim go up, and it's really dabbling. Please don't dabble or do a quick jump shift, do a new practice area. I have spoken with attorneys that are very intentionally moving right now and very aggressively, into the bankruptcy space, for obvious reasons. Some are doing this, again, it's a jump shift, and know absolutely nothing about it, or very, very little and others are very, very intentional about it and really taking their time and developing processes and procedures, getting mentors, and really coming up to speed in a very appropriate way. So, caution, jump shifts, dabbling very dangerous. LEAH: Mark, I'll comment on that. MARK: Please. LEAH: That is an area that we see so many claims come out of competent, smart attorneys who just have taken a case or taken on an area of practice that they don't get the full spectrum of it. It's definitely ripe for either missteps and just missing something because it's a nuance to that practice. I absolutely agree with you on that. MARK: It's one of those things. We just don't know what we don't know, and that's the problem on the dabble. I also would strongly encourage you, more than ever, to determine upfront if clients can afford your services and also thoroughly document your scope, because more and more, it's not face-to-face in the same room having conversations. We need to be clear. If I'm interviewing you and you're interviewing me in terms of price, a potential client, and I'm potential lawyer here, we really to understand. Leah, can you afford this? It's not a discussion over my hourly rate. Here's what this divorce might cost or what this bankruptcy might cost, and these are some variables, and I'll give you the best effort that I can to give you some accurate parameters, but then this is what I'm going to do and what I'm not going to do. MARK: I think now more than ever, these are key, key things to do. Again, I brought this up at the very beginning, I would not get aggressive in collection practices right now. Maybe to really underscore this, a lot of lawyers will say, "I did good work, got a good outcome, I deserve to be paid now more than ever." I don't care. It's completely irrelevant. That's a given, let it go. The only issue is, is there any money out there to get? A harsh reality is, a lot of these people with furloughs and everything else, there is no money. They're not paying the rent. You think you as the lawyer are first in line? That ain't happening. It's roof and food for the kids. They're a top priority right now. I would not get aggressive with collection actions. MARK: I'm not saying walk away. I'm just saying let's be reasonable about, because you can put people in a corner, and then the counterclaim is coming. Of course, make sure that everybody's aware of changes in relevant rules, regulations, and laws, so that we don't blow some filing deadlines just because we're out of the loop. I would also add that clients should be made aware of changes that might impact their matter. So don't overlook keeping clients informed, but because it's their matter. LEAH: What a great idea. MARK: You need to allow them to meaningfully participate, that kind of thing. There are some risk tips that I have. Do you have anything that comes to mind from your end that you would want to add or think about? LEAH: Yeah. Just drafting off what you just said, basically, considering those kind of client needs and taking those steps to make sure that they're met, being clear about what response times need to be now that people are maybe working different hours as they're virtual or working from home, a little more flexibility, whether folks want virtual meetings or in person, and how to manage those risks, specifically, just being open and up front about what your clients need. The other big thing, it's not new that attorneys take their work home. That's definitely not a new phenomenon, but with some of these more flexible arrangements, just being clear about securing client information that you bring back and forth, even laptops and hardware, software issues that you might have, being just top of mind on that stuff. MARK: Well, and I appreciate that. Let's look at that a little more in depth. What we're really getting into is just cybersecurity, cyber liability, that whole issue. Let me share, well, before I do, do you have, again, from an underwriting perspective, are there, because we also sell cyber liability insurance to lawyers ... LEAH: We do. MARK: Are there risks? Does this situation, in terms of COVID, work-from-home, virtual law, all this stuff, does that change your risk analysis at all? Do you have any concerns that come up? LEAH: Well, certainly one of the big ones is that the home systems just are not as secure as often office situations are, when it comes to hardware routers, all of those setups, personal devices, like your cell phone, just may need to be reexamined. We had talked before about looking at your internal processes, and it's a good time to look again at your cyber processes as well. MARK: Yeah, yeah. Understand folks, there is a difference between trying to secure systems and protecting and maintaining data. Those are actually two different things. There's a lot of overlap, but not entirely. I'm going to come back to this here in a minute, but you talked about home systems, and just to underscore that point, can I share to our listening audience, home routers, as an example, often they are older devices. They have not ever been appropriately set up, meaning the default password hasn't been changed. You can get these default passwords off the routers in seconds off Google. You just figure out what kind of router it is. It's typically 'admin' or some silly thing like that, encryption hasn't been turned on, et cetera, and cybercriminals know this, and they are taking real advantage of this. MARK: We need to think through, we typically don't have IT support dealing with our home systems, but now that the home systems are the primary system, we need to think through this and make sure that the steps that we've taken to secure the perimeter of the work environment, of the office network, et cetera, now extends to the home environment. That security piece needs to be in play, but that's not enough. Getting back to privacy of data, how many of us routinely at home, work with shared devices? My wife and I each have our own phone, but we use each other's phones at times. If we're out, "Here, can you just do that?" We share home computers and it's kids having to do homework, maybe need to get on Dad's computer or Mom's computer. MARK: What have you done to protect client confidences? In a perfect world, no family member, unless they are employed by the firm, should have access to any of this equipment period. It just really shouldn't happen. So, think about personal use and who's using all of this to try to maintain. One of the things that I'd like to talk about, too, that I think a lot of lawyers don't understand, let me ask you this. I hopefully I'm not putting you on the spot here, Leah. My guess is not. If I'm a law firm and I go out and this is not going to be unique to Alps, I'm just going to use Alps as an example. I go out and I buy this cyber liability policy for my firm from Alps, does that insurance cover all these devices that people have in their homes that are using personally for work? Does that coverage extend? LEAH: Such a great point. Such a great question. That's dialing down. Do you know what your policy covers? Have you read what the policy language specifies? Typically there's going to be carve-outs for personal devices, because they're better covered somewhere else. There could be certain requirements. One of the big ones is out-of-band communication when it comes to wire transfers. You're required to double check, pick up that phone and call whoever it is that told you to wire the money to a certain area. You have some of that responsibility, and that's an important to know that on the front end. Absolutely. What a great question. MARK: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So folks, I don't want to put anybody here in this extreme panic. Policy language is going to differ, but generally, these policies cover equipment that is either owned by or leased for law firm purposes. That is not what a home laptop is, or the home cell phone, or the home iPad, and all these other things. Now, if a personal device was the pathway perhaps into the network and the firm's network is breached and something happens, every carrier, these policies, there's a lot of the tail to them, but I have trouble seeing how an insurer wouldn't be stepping up for that one. The real concern is if the attack is limited to, and this is happening, which is why I'm having this conversation, to the home systems, so if I'm a hacker and I break in, Leah, to you as an attorney at a firm, into your home laptop, and I steal everything. I don't need the network anymore. MARK: You've got all this stuff on your laptop, and- LEAH: What a great opportunity. MARK: -and then, you turn around and say, "Well, I have cyber coverage for this." No, you don't. The firm has cyber coverage for firm equipment. This isn't firm equipment. It's just something to think about, just to be aware of. It gets back to thinking through your practices and procedures and your processes in light of these changes, so I would obviously encourage IT support to address any concerns. And even just said, talk to your IT support person. "Here's what's going on in various homes. What do you think we should do? What are your concerns? Can you help us?" Just take it a step at a time. Other thoughts, other concerns that you have here, I don't want to take up too much of your precious time, but ... LEAH: Well, I think these are excellent, excellent tips that you've brought up, and a lot of really thought-provoking information for firms and attorneys to mull over, especially if folks are considering doing more of a longterm flexible work-from-home situation. Yeah. MARK: Yeah. Can I end with this? If firms are going to think about really extending at least a part of the workforce perhaps, more of a full time work-from-home remote, which in my mind is a little bit different than a virtual practice, but I think from a risk perspective, really not a whole lot. Initially, is just the fact that we have work-from-home folks now, is that an "Uh oh," for an underwriter in terms of just that fact? LEAH: That's a great question. No, if you have a virtual practice or somewhere in that spectrum, from virtual practice down to a flexible working from home environment, again, it's not something necessarily that is new to the industry. It's just more prevalent now with firms. And so, knowing that the attorneys are looking out for some of these pitfalls, cognizant of what they need to do to mitigate, that's really the important stuff that underwriters want to know. MARK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's important for folks to hear. It's a great place to end on, because in my mind, there's nothing wrong with work-from-home. It's not the tool, it's what do we do with this situation we find ourselves in. LEAH: Exactly. MARK: If we were really concerned about all these changes, we wouldn't want to insure new young lawyers that just hang up a shingle, because they don't know what they're doing. You see where I'm going? You don't have 10 years experience to be this computer geek, have this high tech system at home. The insurance industry, we are comfortable with the change. LEAH: You bet. MARK: What becomes important is, how do you respond to the change? Are you responsible in managing these transitions, and then following through and adjusting ordering processes? If you're thinking long term of staying in this space in full or in part, I really encourage all of you folks to take some of the things that we've raised here to heart. I've been telecommuting for 10 years. I love it. I won't ever go back. I'm assuming Alps will allow me that, extend that privilege, that I could stay out here, but it's not the work-from-home environment that's a concern. It's how we are all responding and dealing with the work-from-home. So, that's my final word. Leah, do you have any other closing comment or anything else? LEAH: Well, I appreciate some of these concrete tips. I can see how they'd be so helpful to take advantage of, and just circling back to the root of all of this is the wellness, and making sure that you have what you need as the attorney and the connections that you need within your firm and your clients. What a great top priority to have. MARK: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely agree. Well, Leah, thank you so much for spending a little time with me and the audience today. I hope you've had some fun. Look forward to doing this again. We periodically get together. LEAH: Absolutely. MARK: It'll be awesome. I look forward to the next one. Before I sign off, I do want to update anyone that has listened to an earlier podcast called Listening to Your Life. It's a little bit of a story, of a challenge my wife gave me, and just share some thoughts about what was happening. Basically, I've been doing a lot of bike riding, and there was a challenge to ride 1,200 miles by the end of summer, which is defined as the end of September. It's all started at the beginning of the COVID stay-at-home situation here in Montana. But, as of today, which is what, the 12th of August, I'm at 1,421. LEAH: Whoa! MARK: I am rocking it and I've upped my goal. Now I'm going to try to hit 1,750 by the end of August or September. It's been a lot of riding, a lot of fun. As we near the end, or shortly after the end of this, I'm going to come back and do another little podcast on Listening to Your Life and some learning to the whole process. But for those of you that are monitoring all of this 1,421 as of today, it's a lot of miles, but it's been a great experience. So, I will say goodbye to all of you. If you have any thoughts, concerns, issues you'd like to discuss in future, or perhaps you're in a podcast, don't hesitate to reach out to me at mbass@bassatalpsinsurance.com. Happy to try to help in any way that I can. Thanks again, folks. Thanks, Leah. Goodbye.  

The word is out… I AM PREGNANT! I asked you to ask me questions about my pregnancy on Instagram and you guys delivered. It’s honestly been a crazy experience so far. I didn’t eat a vegetable for more than a month. Pregnancy, in the beginning, felt like a constant, mild hangover. I had bit of an identity crisis: does this mean my life/career/everything is over? BUT there are also many wonderful parts, and we go over all of it in the podcast! Here are some of the topics we cover: How did you decide you were ready to get pregnant? How did you find out you were pregnant/how did you tell Mark? Are you nervous about being pregnant, given the strange events going on in the world? How are you feeling? Were you excited to move on to the second trimester? What are you most excited for about being a parent?    Our experience with couples counselling (and why it should be mandatory for every couple) How have your workouts changed? Join my Facebook group to watch the FREE “Navigating Your New Normal” webinar series every week in April: facebook.com/groups/healthyandhappypodcastsquad

Want to know how Suja hit £10,000 in a month? Well ... you're in LUCK :) In this interview, we went into great detail about her journey, how she started, the challenges she went through, and how she's replaced her income working only 5 - 10 hours per week. Here's what we cover: - Why Suja didn't start with private labels, and what she did instead for 6 months. - The (very humble) amount of money Suja started with, and how she turned that into a £10,000 per month business - How she researched her first product ...by getting inspiration from her workplace - Exactly how many products she has (hint: I can count them on ONE HAND!) ... this answers Roya + Carl + Tracy's questions - The ridiculous price she paid for her first test batch (I was shocked) - Her ninja PPC strategies (and her RITUAL for keeping her ACOS low) Also we answered YOUR questions: - Lorna "How did she get sales and reviews ? Ppc is very expensive and interested to know how much she spent on advertising" - Tracy "Ollie, what would she say the most useful info/advice from you has been?" - Dale "I would like to know what elements Suja feels have been the most important for her in getting to this level?" - Elina "I'd like to know more about how she chose her products, did something stand out in the research process? Is she still doing PPC or are most of her sales organic?" - Dennis "How did you manage your ppc in the early stages and now that your at 10k a month are you still working and doing your Amazon selling". - Mark "Are all your products sourced from China? - Tim "How long does it take her to get a product on amazon selling?" You're gonna LOVE this. Enjoy! - Ollie Whenever you’re ready, here’s 3 ways I can help you build + grow your Amazon business. 1. Get your burning questions answered in Ollie's Ecommerce Q&A Facebook Group. Get free content, and be surrounded by an awesome community of likeminded people. Join the group HERE: https://www.facebook.com/groups/ecomm... (To be accepted into the group, please answer the questions after you ask to join). 2. did you know that my ‘Ultimate Private Label Product Research Handbook’ is on sale for $7? It contains ALL my tricks, strategies and criteria for finding ‘smash hit’ private label products that generate upwards of $2,000 per month EACH. It usually sells for $297, but I want YOU to have it for $7, because I'm on a mission to help more people. Click HERE to check out the deal: https://info.ecommercefreedom.com/new... 3. Are YOU looking for a mentor to help you build a 6 figure Amazon business? Apply for your free 'Amazon Accelerator Call' ...we'll chat on the phone and build a plan for you. Apply here: https://info.ecommercefreedom.com/coa...

The 2nd Episode of the Mitch and Drigz Podcast “ We The Streakers” is now live! Adam Corsair the founder of the legendary podcast “South of the 6ix” dropped by and joined this discussion. During this episode we discuss : - Last weeks games (4:40 mark) - The Raptors 2nd unit and Nick Nurses and Adams(eye roll) infatuation with Patrick McCaw (11:20 min Mark) - Are the Raptors rebounding woes something to actually worry about ( 23:20 min mark) - OG OH MY or OG GOODBYE ? We discuss his future with the Raptors (32:30 min mark) - Standing toppers or playoff floppers: dive into the raps chances this post season with MitchNDrigz (42:00 min mark) - Last but not least , we discuss the Raptors slate of games for the week/predictions! You do not want to miss part of this slow! Drop a comment and toss us a like! We would appreciate some feedback, good or bad! Follow us on Instagram @MitchandDrigzPodcast and Twitter @Mitch_DrigzPod The Podcast is now available on Anchor FM, Spotify, SoundCloud , and next week it will be available on Apple Podcast!

After a well-deserved winter break, we are back with our first episode of 2020. In this episode, we will be talking with Linda Watkins. Currently, Linda is Senior Director of Marketing at Gatsby, a modern website framework that creates blazing fast, secure, instantly scalable websites. She is sought after for her marketing expertise and frequently consults with large brands worldwide. But first and foremost, she is a practitioner that enjoys sharing her knowledge and experience by engaging with marketers and technologists. She lives in the San Francisco Bay Area and in her free time, plays flute with the Bay Area Rainbow Symphony and enjoys Netflix documentaries. Linda Watkins has worked for some of the biggest technology brands in the world including Amazon and Cisco Systems. She has also worked for various technology startups that specialize in modern website development. She has over 10 years of experience building scalable marketing programs, driving demand for new services, and planning and executing go-to-market strategies. She is a Stanford Certified Project Manager and has an MBA from Brigham Young University. Project Pick Gatsby Preview Interview Mario: Tell us about your role as a Senior Director of Marketing at Gatsby? Mario: For those listeners who aren’t familiar with Gatsby JS, can you tell us what it is? Bob: What benefits does Gatsby bring to large scale enterprise web teams? What’s attractive to marketers and IT managers? Mark: Are any notable brands using Gatsby? Who are they? Mark: Where does Gatsby fit into a martech (Marketing Tech

Do you assume you don't need to worry about being the target of a cyber attack because your business is too small? Often times, solo and small firms are seen as low-hanging fruit and are specifically targeted by hackers looking to gain valuable information. Solo attorney Suzan Herskowitz offers advice and insight into how she made the leap to becoming cyber secure to protect her firm and her clients' information. Transcript: MARK: Hello. This Mark Bassingthwaighte, the Risk Manager with ALPS and welcome to the latest episode of ALPs in Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence Building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. Today I'm very pleased to have as my guest Suzan Herskowitz, a practitioner from, is it Winchester, am I right Suzan? SUZAN: Winchester, Virginia. MARK: Winchester, Virginia. I've been through that area. I can say it's certainly not a mega-city. SUZAN: No. MARK: Quite the opposite in fact. Susan, or Suzan pardon me, I am most interested, and we've had a discussion last fall about challenges that solo lawyers face in terms of trying to be cyber secure, just the challenges, and you have made some changes in recent times. So we're going to have a conversation and talk about the challenges and what all happened in your practice. But before we jump into that, may we take a moment or two and just, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself? SUZAN: Sure. I have been practicing law since 1986 but I am a bit of a nomad and I've moved around so I'm licensed in four states: Texas, Florida, West Virginia, and then Virginia, in that order. This go around if you will, I have been practicing solo since the end of 2004. MARK: Okay. Can we start, maybe just sharing a little bit about the challenges you face in terms of technology as a solo practitioner. Suzan: Well obviously, you know as a solo we don't have the same financial ability that some larger law firms would have, just by its size. MARK: Right. SUZAN: I know that when I started going to the ALPS epic seminars and you scared me half to death I was working with a local company and over time I found that they couldn't keep up with what ALPS wanted us to do and then what the bar wanted us to do as the cyber security threats seemed to become more and more real. Not only for large companies but for small little guys like me as well. MARK: Yes. SUZAN: So about a year ago I jumped ship to a slightly larger company to handle all of my IT work and obviously a bigger monthly bill for that as well. But it's meant doing an upgrade on everything from my router so it had better encryption and was more secure, upgraded computer system so that I was using business computers, business laptops instead of just ones that I would buy at the big box store. All kinds of things to make sure that I had more security just in the hardware, let alone the software. MARK: Right. One of the things I think about, just in terms of responding to what you're sharing here a little bit, for me it underscores there's a difference between, and I got a couple points up here in my head, but there's a difference between IT support and IT service provider that can bring to the table additional security practices, best practices into play and I think that's a real challenge. Not only for solo practitioners but small businesses, even large businesses struggle with that one at times. So I like hearing, as a Risk Manager, that you've made this jump to a company now that really not only can provide the IT support but understands the needs of a lawyer in terms of appropriate security and taking the steps to put that into place. May I ask sort of what drove you to make this change? I hear that some of it is sort of the scare factor but you know, I can scare people awfully well and I still find at times a lot of lawyers don't yet make that change. Were there other factors in play? What drove the process for you? SUZAN: I tell people all the time, I'm very risk adverse in most things. MARK: Yes. SUZAN: So I go to your seminar year, after year, after year which I'm very grateful for, and I would talk to my IT person who kept saying this isn't going to happen to you. You're just a small fry out in Winchester, they're not going to come after you. You would recommend things and he would say I wouldn't need it and the next year the bar would require it. MARK: Okay. SUZAN: Remember I'm licensed in four States so I'm getting this information from multiple sources, not just the Virginia State bar, I'm getting it from other avenues as well, and they're all saying the same thing. I try to keep up on things. I've never been afraid of technology. My stepmom used to work in the field years ago. Even being up on technology, I realized I was falling behind and it wasn't enough for somebody to say, ‘we don't have to worry about that,' when I could plainly see when I went to your seminars as well as one that the bar put on itself one year, that I definitely needed to look at some of this to the extent I could based on the size of my business. MARK: Okay. I like that. One of the thoughts you shared that I really appreciate you bringing up, and I hear this repeatedly, but the fact that your IT support person says it, you don't need to worry about this stuff because you're too small, it just kind of blows my mind at times. I really want to take an opportunity here just to underscore to our listeners, size in terms of your business is irrelevant on the cyber crime space, for lack of a better word. In fact, I think smaller business, small firms, individuals in so many ways, and particularly lawyers because of the information, valuable information we have on our networks, we're really viewed as the low hanging fruit and are specifically targeted. So this belief that you're too small to be on anybody's radar couldn't be more wrong. SUZAN: What also happened, and this is what my final decision to make the leap was, was a title company that I know, not a large one, got hacked. They took forever to get their systems back because they didn't have the right backups. MARK: Interesting. SUZAN: I don't know what the whole scenario was as far as what they had to go through, if the FBI came, because I've heard that that can happen and other issues, but they're a title company. They run hundreds of thousands of dollars through their accounts at all times, and that kind of woke me. MARK: Okay. SUZAN: That a local company, not a big one, not a big named one with multiple branches, got hacked. And the trouble they went through. And I literally, just within weeks, had made the leap. MARK: Would you say now, being on the other side of this with a bigger company a better service as you've been talking about here, do you feel like the journey has been worth it? Is the expense worth it? SUZAN: Definitely. MARK: Are you finding it to be tremendously more expensive? SUZAN: It is more expensive, but it has been worth my peace of mind. There's this little popup that comes up periodically on the desktop, that basically is a wave, that says hey we're monitoring. Once a week they call me and say can we pop in on your computers at about seven o'clock tonight to do a system update, and they update everything, programs. They're always monitoring. I thought I had been hacked and they went nope. It's just phishing, just delete it. MARK: Okay yeah. SUZAN: So I have that. And then of course they do the other end of things of I don't know why we don't have any wifi and the connectivity is down, can you guys fix this. They do that as well. But on the cyber security side I find that they have three redundant backups. MARK: Okay yeah. SUZAN: I just feel better that knowing that my systems have so many backups, that they're always monitoring, that it isn't like when I had been told with my old company, if anything happens we can get you back to within a week of where you were. And I'm thinking a week? You know how much money there is in a week? MARK: Right, right. Okay. Have you done any planning on your own or in conjunction with the security support, IT support that you have here in terms of planning for the unexpected. I guess the question is, what happens if you are attacked? Do you see where I'm trying to go? Disaster recovery planning? SUZAN: I'm not really sure what I need to do on that to tell you the truth. I think that with my IT people, because they have a whole notebook for me. MARK: Okay. SUZAN: I've seen the notebook, I know it exists, that between me and them that I can get back up and running quickly. They've kind of promised that, so I'm kind of taking it on faith in that regard that they really will get me back up and running. I will tell you that recently I did lose my internet, my email, long story, and they had me back up as soon as we figured out what the problem was. They had me moved to a different server, they had my email running, they had my web page back up. I basically lost my domain. It's a long story. So I wasn't getting email, nobody could see my website. MARK: Yeah this isn't good. SUZAN: It was kind of a bit of a nightmare, and they got me back up like within a couple of hours they had me running. MARK: Very good. Very good. SUZAN: Yes I had to pay a few hundred dollars more than my regular fee because I went over my allotted time, but gosh I mean, what would I have done without it? MARK: May I ask, is this a local company that you're working with? Suzan: It happens to be local, but with people that have long years in I believe military IT. MARK: Ah. Okay, got it. One of the things that worries me also as a risk guy, you know I look at a lot of data, read a lot of articles, it's overwhelming at times to just try and stay current with this stuff, as I know you can relate to, but you see a lot of businesses, to include law firms, if and when they get hit with some kind of major attack, many of them do not survive. The financial hit can be pretty severe. Have you thought about that? Is there a safety net that you've put into place? SUZAN: I actually have ALPS cyber defense insurance. MARK: Oh! Okay. SUZAN: I did talk to my commercial guy and he looked at your policy and said stay with it. MARK: Well okay. SUZAN: It's as good or better than anything he's seen. I'm not saying that because it's you. He just told me that point blank. He said you stay with what you have. MARK: And I really appreciate your sharing that and we do pride ourselves in bringing a quality product to market. I can say that when we initially put this policy together in conjunction with Beasley, we designed it for the unique needs of lawyers and law firms, so I am proud of that. But I'm not trying to sell insurance. SUZAN: And I didn't mean it that way. I literally asked my commercial insurance person, do you have as good or better policy and he said no. MARK: Yeah. Well, that's awesome. It's great to hear. One of the things I like again about you bringing this up too though, is so many people just mistakenly believe, or perhaps mistakenly assume, that oh if I ever have a problem with my computer, we get hit or something, my general commercial business package, Vista's covered under all these policies we're going to have in place. And I do think it's important to point out, no that's not true. It is possible to insure for cyber breaches of various types whether it's ransomware or just getting hacked and your website goes down, there are all kinds of exposures that can come up here. But you do need to go out and buy what we call in the industry, just a cyber liability policy. So for those of you out there listening, if you're not aware these policies exist, now you are and please if you don't have the coverage in place, I strongly encourage you to shop the market and see what you can find here because cyber breaches can be very, very costly. Do you feel like you've reached the, I don't know, I guess the end of the journey? Do you still feel that there's more to do? SUZAN: Oh yeah! I talked to my IT guy, I'm always sending him emails every so often. I'll read an article and say do we have this? Do I need this? Should we talk about this? Sometimes he says yes and other times he say you're covered. MARK: Yeah. What resources do you have out there? What keeps you current? The same kind of thing, the CLE's, communications in the bar? SUZAN: CLE's, various bar things, I do like to read you know various online materials that may or may not be law related. What's new in tech. MARK: Is there anything you would do differently? SUZAN: I probably wouldn't have been so nonchalant about it all the years ago that I was. Maybe I was lucky. I'm much more proactive about it now than I was then. I'm more aware of it now. I notice when I get an email that looks weird. I don't click on almost anything, even if I get something that appears to be from my bank I go to the bank website and then log in from there and see if I really do have a secure message. MARK: Right there is a tip everybody should pay close attention to. That's exactly how you should be doing it. Suzan, one thing I have not discussed with you in the past, do you have employees or is it just you? SUZAN: I do, and I'm lucky that my employee, who's very young, is going through his bachelors degree in cyber security. MARK: I love it. Okay. SUZAN: So he's really up on all of that stuff and sometimes I ask him for advice. Like what did you learn in school? Is there anything I need to know? So I'm not dealing with someone who's cavalier about things there either. MARK: The reason I ask, and I just love your story here of how this has all played out for you, that's precious, but so many people don't realize too that in spite of all the precautions, the IT service provider you're working with is taking care of in terms of VPN's and just patches and updates and doing all the wonderful things they're doing, we also have to realize that as users we are sort of the weak link, and I do want to underscore to the degree that again those of you listening have employees also with access to the tech tools of your law firm, we do need to provide some education. Suzan you understand how to recognize a phishing attack. We also need to train our employees how to recognize a phishing attack and to delete things, and to pick up the phone and call the bank directly. It's a two-way street. We have to work in partnership with the security companies that we're working with. Any closing comments? Any final thoughts? SUZAN: Just that I recognize that it is an expense and you have to make maybe some adjustments somewhere else, whatever works for you whether it means buying cheaper paper, or finding a different vendor for laser jet ink to make up the difference in the money. I don't know what you have to do to do it, but I do think it was worthwhile for me to know that I am maybe not bulletproof, but I'm certainly a lot safer than I was. MARK: Well I really appreciate your taking the time to visit with me today. The message, the takeaway for me, and why I wanted you to share a bit of your story here, is that as a risk guy who travels the country and works with law firms of all shapes and sizes, I hear over and over and over again that the solo, small firm crowd sometimes they feel overwhelmed and I like your story in the sense that it took you a little bit to get there, but you realized this is really not something that's optional. You're a success story in that you went out, you jumped ship, you realized the IT you initially had in place was just IT and not really taking care of the security piece in the way you felt it should be, you jumped ship, we spent a little more money but we get there. You feel that the journey was very well worth it, so good stuff. SUZAN: And if I might say one final thing is that yes while it costs more money, it was worth outsourcing it and not having to be the one to worry about whether I was updated, and whether I had the backup done, or having somebody call and say, hey you might have been hacked can you look at that? No I don't want to look at that, I want you to look at that. MARK: Right. You need to practice law! Suzan: I have to practice law. MARK: That's right. Very good, okay. Once again Suzan, thank you very much. To those of you listening, I hope you found something of value in today's podcast and please don't hesitate to reach out to me any time. My email address is mbass@alpsnet.com and if you have topics of interest or folks you would like us to interview, I'm all ears. So thanks for listening folks. Have a good one. Bye-bye.

Here at Quiet Light we often like to hire people who are just a bit smarter than us. Amanda Raab is one of those people. She has been helping our clients through her own expert entrepreneurial experience since 2012. Having started the famous Pure Pearls online retail company at just 25 years old, Amanda has gone on to buy and sell multiple businesses. She's with us today talking about the benefits of building a business without working herself to death. Amanda shares tips on how she's acquired multiple businesses, outsourced their growth, and sold them successfully. The buy versus build topic truly never gets old and every time we talk to a guest about it there is something new to be learned. Amanda makes a good case for both. Episode Highlights: Amanda takes us back to how she got started in the online world. Her pearl company story and the press surrounding her success. What it took for Amanda to realize she could hire people to run her businesses. The absentee owner business model that she's been able to replicate several times over. Reasons to hire someone who is good at every component of your business. What Amanda looks for when she's hiring and what building a solid team requires. How much she manages her creatives and monitors their input. Where Amanda lands on the buy vs build spectrum and why. The first areas Amanda outsources when starting a business? The last thing she would outsource. Amanda's number one piece of advice for buyers looking to invest in an internet business. Transcription: Joe: So one of the things that you and I have talked about over the last few years is that we keep hiring people that are smarter than us, maybe smarter than both of us combined which may not be saying much. Mark: Yeah you set the bar pretty high there Joe. Joe: For you anyway but Amanda is talking about a number of different things in this podcast coming up. Amanda and I started at the same time back in 2012 and I'm really looking forward to listening to it because honestly, I don't know that much about her history. But every time a new broker connects with her, talks with her, they get kind of blown away with her experience. Walker, as we all know, wrote a bestselling book and we like to make fun of him and prod him on and we're proud of him for it as well called Buy than Build and in this episode, Amanda's doing the opposite. She's talking about the benefits of building a business, outsourcing some of the things that people don't like to do themselves, and then actually selling them off. Kind of the opposite of what Walker talked about. Mark: I mean you're right she's kind of a more private person and I think I was working with her for three or four years before I realized that she was … or I even learned that she was featured in Time Magazine when she was in her young twenty's for some of the entrepreneurial work that she was doing. And she actually had a documentary filmed on her about sourcing pearls from China of all things. Joe: Oh. Mark: Yeah I know right? Joe: I didn't even know that. Mark: Yeah to think we've been working with her for seven years and you didn't know that there was a full documentary on this person that we've been working with. And also that she was invited and actually spoke at a conference. Did you know this Joe? She actually spoke at a conference in the past. Joe: She did? Mark: I know right. Joe: I have absolutely no idea. We're underutilizing her talents. There's no question about it. Mark: That's what I'm saying. And she is actually crazy smart, one of the most talented entrepreneurs that I know and have known. So in this conversation we ended up just talking a lot about her background because I wanted to find out just in this conversation what wisdom would come out and what revelation would come out of this and getting in a couple of things right away, finding out how did she start multiple businesses, grow them but not work herself to death because she's always building a new house or a new rental property. She's always got some other project with a business on the side. And then she's been working with us for as long as she has. So her time management skills are great. So we talked about this idea of how do you outsource your business people. And I know we've covered this before on past podcasts but I don't know if this topic really gets old because people are doing this in different ways and every time I talk to somebody about this I learn something new about how they're doing it. And so I asked her what is the first thing that you outsource when you start a business? And I'm not going to share the answer now because it actually surprised me a little bit as to what the first thing was and what the last thing was that she does. And then we talked about this idea of is it better to actually build a business or is it better to acquire a business and when should you look at both options? And I thought it was a pretty good conversation, a very honest conversation as well that hey there's room to actually start a business in this entrepreneurial world of ours where people might think we only want to talk about buying a business. She made a pretty good case for when it makes sense to actually start something from scratch. So a fun conversation honestly and really just lots of interesting tidbits of information throughout the entire podcast. Joe: Well I think it goes to the depth and breadth of the quality of people that you've hired at Quiet Light over the years so I'm looking forward to listening to it. Let's go on and so people can stop hearing us chatter. Mark: Well I'm going to say one more thing. Joe, did you know that she decided to start an affiliate business and within four months became the number one super affiliate for that product? Joe: You know I had no idea because the only one who I thought was ever a super affiliate was Jason because he wrote the Bathrobe Millionaire. Mark: He's our other author. Joe: He's our other author, our super affiliate. Wow, no I didn't know that. She's never said a word. I wasn't— Mark: Exactly, I love it. So anyway let's get to know Amanda a little bit and hear some of her past and some of the things that she has to say about online business. Joe: Let's go to it. Mark: All right Amanda thank you so much for finally agreeing to come in the podcast. I've been trying to get you on the podcast for a while but I know you've been building houses, building rental properties, doing business … starting businesses, and of course helping Quiet Light Brokerage clients as well. Amanda: Yes, I've been busy that's for sure. Mark: That's for sure. Amanda: So now I have some down time and I decided to take on the challenge of doing one of these podcasts. Mark: Yeah well, of course, doing the podcast is always a little bit interesting but I think again we're just going to have a conversation here about your background and everything else. So I tell … I don't want to embarrass you right off the bat here but when I talk about the Quiet Light Brokerage team to people I often say well Joe is a client, Jason is the one that kind of forced his way in the door of Quiet Light and I tried to scare him away by giving him all these awful leads and the next thing I know Jason is breaking every record in the book. Joe came on and has been doing the same. But when I talk about you I said … I always say one of the smartest buyers I've ever worked with. And that's how you and I initially met; you were looking at one of my transactions … a deal I had. Do you remember that deal? Amanda: Yes I do. Mark: Yeah. Okay so … and a real lot of competition for that deal but of all the buyers you're able to kind of hone in on some of the key metrics right away. [inaudible 00:06:06.8] was super impressed. I deal with a lot of buyers so super, super impressive. So let's do this. Let's go back a little bit to how you got started in the online world because you actually started with a website called PurePearls.com. You were featured in Time magazine at a super young age. And then you filmed a pearl documentary in China as well right? Amanda: Yes it's kind of crazy to think about it because that part of my life was much of a whirlwind. But I was actually in grad school when I started my pearl company and thought it would make a great hobby. Something as a creative outlet outside of the day to day just what I was doing already in grad school. And so it kind of just snowballed and I just loved it. I was super passionate about learning the business not just the pearl business but just e-commerce, internet marketing, what it would take to get in front of customers. And that opened up so many other opportunities from public relations to search engine optimization. At the time those were big channels for marketing and it just kind of went from there. At the time I was focused on the pearl company I realized there's much broader market and I started getting interested in other opportunities as well. I was invited to a conference in DC to do a speaking engagement for Yanik Silver's Mastermind Group. And as much as I do not like public speaking I decided to face my fears and do it. And I met so many awesome people there. And I just kind of basically looked at what everybody was doing and thought wow there's just so many things that we can be doing with this internet space. And that was kind of a long time ago so I'm thinking that was probably around 15 years ago. So at that point, I just started another company and built that company, sold the pearl company because it was exploding at the time and I just … I couldn't manage it all. So I kind of started small with my new company in the printing industry. So its check printing and I started five new websites. So I just kept building, building, building and developed relationship with manufacturers and started printing basically our own custom products. I scaled that up and realized that I could develop a team to make sure that was a lifestyle company and I didn't have to be in the business. And that's kind of where I got the idea of starting my self-company. Businesses that I did have to work in that I could work on building teams to run them and basically allowing me to do a lot of different things. And so I didn't have to focus on just one niche. Mark: I've just run being been in the business. I've met a guy over the weekend. I was at a conference in Los Angeles … not it the Internet marketing world it was just kind of a more generic business conference. And he used to be a professional fighter and then we were talking about his business career. He said well I have 13 companies so I founded 12 and acquired one. I'm like oh my goodness and he said well I don't really do that much I've put teams in place. And we've talked about this on the podcast as well. We had Shakil Prasla on twice talking about this and how he hires CEO's and puts people in place. And this seems to be kind of this recurring theme with a lot of what we're doing here talking about that. At what point did you learn to put people in place with your companies? What did it take for you to be like you know what I'm going to hire people? Was it … well did you have kind of like a moment where it kind of struck you or was it more organic over time that you realized this is a good way to go? Amanda: I'd say both; a combination. With my pearl company, I realized I needed to put systems in place because I wanted to do a lot of different things. And so I went to an event and I heard somebody speaking about outsourcing things that you don't like to do. And I was like wow that's really smart because when you run a business there are going to be things you don't like to do. There are those dreaded tasks that you put off and put off and put off right? But you need to do them to run a functional business. And so at that point, I started outsourcing things for the pearl company. When I first started obviously I was wearing all the hats in the company but then I started hiring a customer service person. I was lucky enough to have somebody to handle all of the manufacturing and the shipping for me, the packaging so I don't have to actually even touch the product. And from there I hired a marketing team, content writing and things like that. So basically all I did was make sure that the marketing was on point, develop new ideas for marketing channels, and keeping the books in line. And then when I brought on my new company Check Printing, a financial printing company, I kind of used the same system and developed it for that business and it worked really well. I started that from the very beginning and so it was very much an absentee owner business outside of me looking at new marketing channels and keeping the books and whatnot. And so I was able to replicate that with each of my other businesses as well. I think it comes out of a necessity because when you want to do a lot of things you realize you have to create these systems right? But also I don't think you can be really good at everything and I'm not. And so you hire people that are really good at each individual component. So somebody who's customer service is likely not to be the greatest at book keeping, right? And somebody who's great at Search Engine Optimization may not be that great at Facebook Marketing. So I think it's really important to hire somebody that is really in tune with each different component of the business. It just makes more sense. Mark: Okay so we're going completely off script here because we're going to talk about the buying versus building and kind of building off of Walker's episode that we filmed. You know Walker who is a … we always have to say now best-selling author Walker Diebel because he's done such a great job with his book Buy than Build. People are like … we're at CapCon this past weekend and we gave away his book and when people realize he was there like oh the author is here, oh that's super cool and like he's kind of a big deal. So we'll get to this I do want to talk about building versus buying and making sort of the argument of why would you want to build a business someday. But I want to go back something you're talking about here, hiring out different pieces. Okay, it sounds so easy to do to say hire a marketer and hire somebody who's really good at what they're doing. Okay, great. Look I've hired people before, I've fired people before, these are all … it's usually in the agency sort of roles. When you're looking for somebody to hire specifically for marketing let's delve into that, how do you A. qualify them or what do you look for? Are you looking for an agency? Are you looking for an individual that works for you directly? Or does it really matter to you? And then also how do you … you said keep the marketing message on point? How? What are you doing to keep that marketing message on point and to check that? Amanda: That's a great question. I was actually reading something last night that said there's no such thing as a getting rich quick scheme. They often take a lot of work to get there. Even though it sounds simple it's actually really difficult. And it kind of goes with the same thing that success is like an iceberg, you only see the top part but there's a huge component at the bottom to making that work. And so there's a lot of trial and error with that to find the right person. Obviously, there's going to be a lot of hiring and letting go and finding somebody else because you learn what you don't want, you learn what you actually need. And sometimes that can be an agency if they have all those components built in. So if they have everybody you're looking for and they're doing exactly what they say they're going to do and holding themselves accountable then great since that makes sense. And to me, that's ideal because there's less hand-holding and less training involved. A lot of times though, it does involve finding one contractor to do something very specific. And it does require constant monitoring to make sure that they're staying on task and basically meeting those milestones that you've put in place for them. So I think that building that team does come with trial and error. It does come with some unfortunate firing of team members because they're not performing. But at the end of the day finding those quality team members are what kind of drive your business. So it's really important to stay on top of it. Mark: Yeah and I think it's important as well when talking about letting people go. Like this is the unfortunate part of being an entrepreneur, sometimes you have to let people go. But I do think it's important to look at the options available to you as well. Maybe like you said somebody is really better suited for customer service and you can really apply that. I often think about like sports teams and what do they do right? Sports teams are often handicapped by who they actually have on their teams and so a lot of times they play to the strengths of the team members that they currently have. And so this is something that for those of you that are currently like me that kind of cringe at the idea of letting people go this is something that you can do; it's invest in the people that you do have to find out where they do thrive. That doesn't mean that you should just need and see hold on to somebody. Everybody is an adult and should understand that obviously, it has to be a good fit. But you can definitely invest in people as well. How involved do you get with that marketing message when you are taking a look? Let's say that you hire somebody to do some Facebook Marketing for you and they're going to set up the creatives and everything else. How closely are you monitoring their ad work and how much are you kind of saying okay I'm going to let you run and possibly fall and this is your gig … I guess my question is how do you avoid micromanaging versus letting them run wild with a completely wrong message? Amanda: Well that's a good question because I think that first of all I am a natural manager and anybody in my family will tell you that … so especially when it has to do with your marketing dollars and getting a return on investment. However, there are things that I just don't know how to do really well and … for example Facebook Marketing or an email, like Amazon PPC or something of that nature. And a lot of times you will be told that they need a ramp up period so they can kind of test campaign. See what's working and then dial in on a more targeted marketing after they do broader match term. And so they do require a period of time to really get those conversions up or an Amazon to take the a-cost down and so with that I really only check in every three months to see if they are meeting our goal. And if they're not then you have to decide okay am I going to give them another three months period or do I need to move on? And so … I mean it really depends on what it is, what channel. Obviously, with SEO, there is a really long period of time that you kind of have to wait to see if its working and that can be really hard for people who are not patient enough. Because with Google with all of the algorithms that have come through in the last couple of years it can take a lot longer than it did previously before that in the old school days to get results. So it just really depends whether it'd be Instagram, Facebook, where I think you can see a lot quicker results versus Amazon or Google PPC and SEO. It's just a completely different ballgame. Mark: Are you an old enough internet marketer … and I don't want to call you old but are you old school enough to remember the Google Dance? Amanda: Yes. Am I showing my age now? Absolutely. Mark: I'm so glad that we got that recorded that I'm here calling you old publicly to everybody. No, I just … you know I often … I love talking to entrepreneurs. I have been doing this for a while because we remember the Google Dance. Every 30 days or 45 days and then the forms will light up like all right the Google Dance is happening and you'd want to see where you … everything is shook out and did you gain, did you lose? How— Amanda: Worse than the stock market. I tell you … unbelievable, yes. I don't miss that. There's a lot more opportunities for diversification now it seems so— Mark: Yeah. I think Google has done a good job of … because if you got edged out by like a spammy site or somebody that was just been [inaudible 00:19:19.4] the search results you're done. Amanda: Right. Mark: You had to wait 30 days minimum to be able to correct it and it was just torture but exciting at the same time. All right let's get to the topic that we were going to talk about. I want to talk a little bit about building versus buying. And I know I brought this up with Chuck at CapCon and he's like why would you guys talk about this? You're going to shoot yourself in the foot because we obviously make our money when people buy businesses from us. But there's an argument to be made as well especially for creatives for building something. So let's start right there and just ask you've done both, you've bought businesses and you've built businesses. Amanda: Mm-hmm. Mark: Where do you fall kind of on that spectrum and why? Amanda: Well I'm more on the builder side. I'm just a natural builder, a natural creator. I love the challenge of it. I love actually creating something from nothing. That is very much who I am. And you can't buy something without having somebody to build it right? So there is the other side of that coin and so somebody has to build a business, hopefully, a great business for a buyer to want to invest in. And so I love talking about building businesses because that's really where I'm passionate. I'm also very analytical as you know with data and statistics and marketing. And so I just … I think that when you're looking at buying a business versus building I think there's great opportunity for both right? If you're … if you have a portfolio of businesses for example like Shakil does and obviously he's willing to buy businesses because he doesn't want to invest the time to just necessarily or take the time to grow because they have a team ready to jump into something and run with it. Whereas I like to take some time to build it and see kind of where it's going to go and then run with it that way more organically. And that's kind of where my passion lies. And I like to kind of have that control of what I'm … the product how it's being made, packaged, the overall message around it. And that goes with pretty much everything whether I'm building a home or a business kind of my thoughts on it. Mark: Yeah and I met him. You've built multiple properties physical like … since you've been with Quiet Light one rental property, two homes at least that I know of. Amanda: Yes, three. Mark: Three? Wow. Amanda: Uh-huh. Mark: Holy cow. And I know you're really involved in the design process as well. When we met down in Austin you've had floor samples and everything like that in the car because you were going through all this. You do like to get in to that. Do you think it makes more sense? Let's just talk purely investment strategy here from just an investment standpoint. So I'm looking to place money into something and really kind of grow from a financial standpoint, do you think that there's a benefit in buying versus building in that scenario? Amanda: Today it is harder. It's more competitive to build. There's no doubt about it. It's much harder than when I started out. When I built my pearl company it was in 2003. We launched in 2004. Obviously, that was a total different time, kind of similar with my check manufacturing company. And then with Amazon, I still think that there's easy room for building obviously and even with Facebook Marketing you can see some pretty quick growth there. But there is something to be said for businesses that have really paved the way and are established and the foundation is there. And so I think it just depends on how you want to invest and so if you want to invest in something that's established and that has a history, a foundation that's already been done, they've already built a team for you and you're just walking right into it. That makes for a very sound and smart decision versus taking a risk and just seeing where it takes you in building a business. Because I mean I've experienced this, I've built a lot of businesses that haven't been successful either because I either burnt out or the marketing just didn't pan out. But I've learned from those and so I think one of my greatest successes is built off of just learning from the failure and then building off of that platform. So I think there's something to be said for both. From an investment standpoint though I'd say if you're looking to invest in something investing in a business that's established makes more sense. So I guess it's just different. I am a creator and a builder but at the same time, I do like to invest in sound vehicles so I've done both. Mark: I've asked this question to a few people before. If you were to guess how many domains you own right now how many would it be? Amanda: Oh gosh I don't know. And I'd hate to look because I'm sure I'm spending a lot of money just wasting away. Mark: Yeah. Amanda: Yes I actually purchased domains for my daughters as well because I don't know where this internet space is going and so I just want them to have the opportunity when the time is right. So yes I have a lot of wasted domain right now. Mark: Yeah I've logged in to my domain account and it's kind of like going down memory lane of bad business ideas or maybe— Amanda: Yes isn't it? Mark: They're not always bad but some of them are bad. Some of them are like oh my gosh what was … was my diet bad when I did that … decided to because this is— Amanda: The someday businesses; yes, what I might do someday. Mark: Exactly, there's a couple in there like you know what I actually still want to do that. It's just a matter of A. it doesn't pay anybody if I do it and B. the prime. Amanda: Right. Mark: But I think before that you were actually getting on to a point that I thought was really interesting and I found this with buyers. You've been with Quiet Light now seven years I think? Amanda: Yes, seven going on I think eight; crazy. Mark: I know right? So you've dealt with a lot of buyers over the years as well and I find that buyers tend to be … tinkers a lot right? The people that love to buy and do really well they're great at taking something existing, tinkering, modifying it, improving it. But a lot of buyers … and this is speaking generally; this is the rule for everybody. The creative process of starting up something from scratch and having to create and have that runway isn't really of interest to them. You know those are things that kind of bore them. And I know in Walker's book he talks about this. He starts out saying that he had start-up companies and they … it failed, including companies that received quite a bit of funding. And that process, that ramp up period was really painful. But once he started buying he really enjoyed that part of it. That was super exciting to him. So I think some of it does come to just personality. Amanda: Yes. Mark: What do you get excited about? You are a creator. You're a creative person. You love design. You love creating systems and you are data driven and data oriented. So that makes sense that you are going to really go towards that starting side to help exercise some of those creative muscles. So what are some of the first areas that when you're starting a business you like to outsource? Amanda: Obviously, the website design that would be the first step and it really depends on what the business is. But the first step would be product manufacturing, a website design, and how to start your first layer of marketing. And I would outsource all of that. And basically, I would just be managing that process to make it look and feel like I want it to so the business imparts the message that I want to integrate into the business. But that part is the hardest part I think of running a business. It does require a lot of thought, creativity, and management. At the same time for me, that's really what drives me when I'm creating something. That push and that challenge is what I look forward to everyday or stay up super late at night thinking about. And so I think it really is important to start outsourcing from the beginning. Because I'm obviously not a manufacturer, not a web designer, and I don't do the day to day marketing per se. I hire all of that out. Mark: Yeah and I've heard it a lot. Start at the beginning don't try and run a bootstrap with and then think that it's going to be easy. It's going to be easy just to hand that off because it's really hard as an entrepreneur to do that. What's the last thing that you would outsource? Amanda: Probably bookkeeping, to be honest, because … yeah, it pains me to say because I want everybody to have clean books right? But the last thing for me is bookkeeping because I know how to get a bank account and a credit card. That's easy; those are things that most people can do if we're generic. But running your books, you actually need to have a history of at least a couple of months and so it's pretty easy to integrate that into Quick Books or whatnot from your bank statement. So typically that's the last thing I would hire out because it seems to me that it doesn't take them very long to catch up. Mark: That's interesting. So I'm actually reversed on that. I like to outsource books first because I just don't enjoy it at all. Amanda: Right. Mark: And like you said outsource the stuff that you don't enjoy and keep things that you do so cool. Well, this has been interesting, it's been useful, it's not everything that we planned to talk about but I actually liked what we talked about and that there was something interesting. So I'm going to end with this, you've been advising buyers and sellers for a long time now and most of the people that listen to the podcast are looking to buy, there are some people selling. If you were to give one piece of advice for people buying an online business whether it'd be through Quiet Light Brokerage or through any other place; you find it online or another brokerage firm, what would be just kind of the one thing that you would advise people on? Amanda: I think the best thing that you can do is take some time to research just overall broad marketplace. Don't just look at a few packages. Really allow yourself several months at least to get a good feel of what's a good fit for you. There are so many different models of businesses, SaaS businesses, Amazon, to e-commerce and so forth and so one may seem more attractive to you. It may not necessarily need to be a certain niche but it may just be a certain type of model that is attractive. And I just want to add to that that the other thing that I recommend is don't basically pigeonhole yourself into a certain niche because you might find a business that doesn't have an attractive product but everything else could be right; the lifestyle component, the workload, the margin, the net profitability. And so I think that's really important to keep an open mind. Mark: Awesome. Well, hey, thanks, Amanda for coming on the podcast. I really do appreciate you coming on and I'm sure everybody else will as well. Everybody knows where to reach you, amanda@quietlightbrokerage. If you have questions about buying, about starting, about … you know or just have really general questions about this I will stand by the fact that your entrepreneurial background speaks for itself. And I think the success that you've had repeatedly speaks for itself. So we appreciate you sharing some of the wisdom you've gained over the years of doing this entrepreneurial thing that we do and everything else. Amanda: Yeah. Mark: So hopefully we can have you on again sometime in the future but we'll wait a year or so before we do. Amanda: Yes please do. Mark: All right. Amanda: Well thank you, Mark. I appreciate it. Have a great day. Links and Resources: Contact Amanda About Amanda  

Some sixty percent of people go to Amazon when they shop for a physical product. If you have one to sell and you're not on Amazon, this episode is for you. In today's product market every seller has got to learn the Amazon ecosystem. Today's guest is the person to turn to when looking to save, grow, and make more money on Amazon. Michael Zagare was doing something he hated for many years. He was ready for a change and finally sold his Physical Therapy practice and began dabbling in internet sales. Amazon FBA was a great fit. Mike now owns PPC Entourage and runs his own profitable Amazon business. PPC Entourage is an Amazon Seller software that analyzes all of your sponsored advertising data and then optimizes everything for you. Today Mike shares his insights from his own selling experience and from helping countless Amazon FBA sellers. Episode Highlights: When you should start optimization. Finding a niche in the marketplace and breaking in. Organic rankings versus paid rankings. Lowering ACOS with optimization. Your average ad spend. How to go about optimizing a paid spend. Sifting through the search terms in order to fine-tune your listing. How much data is needed to draw a good conclusion on a product's optimization. What to look for in opportunities to expand through optimization. Creative tips and strategies to use for sponsored ads. What Amazon sellers can implement today in order to start optimizing. Ways sellers can protect against the competition and dying out. Continual product development and brand building. The importance of the intellectual property portion of your products. Transcription: Joe: So, Mark back in the day … I could say that now because I have gray hair on my chin. Back in the day I learned Google Ad Words I used to spend a little bit of money and eventually grew it and grew it and grew it and grew it. It got to the point that I was spending $50,000 a week on Google Ad Words. I maxed it out and then you know just do that on a monthly basis. And I didn't take any courses and I should have. And I didn't hire any experts and I should have. And I didn't outsource it and I should have. Maybe they didn't exist, I don't know what the issue was, it was probably just inside my head. Today there's almost too many experts and in every possible category and some of them really just take your money. But you had someone on the podcast specifically talking about Amazon sponsored ads which if … folks if you've got a physical product and you're not selling on Amazon simply because you don't think you need to … I personally will not shop for anything other than on Amazon. I will go there first. If I can't find it there I think it doesn't exist. So, I think something like 60% of people looking for a physical product shop on Amazon. So, you've got to learn the Amazon ecosystem and sponsored ads and their marketing and things of that nature. And you had Michael Zagari is that how you pronounce his last name talking about this? Mark: Yes, that's right and he is an Amazon ads expert. And you're right back in my day I don't have the same gray hair mainly because I don't have a chin … I'm sorry a beard, I have a chin. Joe: It's very revealing about how you feel about yourself. Mark: Why do you think we've stopped the video? I have no chin. So, I had Michael on and you're right back in the day it used to be that you could setup campaigns with pretty much every advertising platform. Set them up run them and take a little bit to get them up and going but today really need to be an expert in each of these categories, each of these advertising platforms. Amazon is really no different than that. And what Michael does is he really helps people. He's developed a platform that people can use which will help manage their advertising platform through Amazon. Be able to identify those keywords that maybe they are paying for and add them to this negative keyword list to be able to make their ad spend a lot more efficient. In our conversation which … it's pretty funny actually, so he actually has an Amazon store and they sell litter boxes and other cat things and they're in the video which hopefully we'll get some clips up. That's a note to our editor Chris you've got to get the clips up. His cat was literally like walking around all over the chair behind him and everything else so very, very appropriate. We talked a little bit about the strategies that- Joe: I want to say “ah cute” but I'm not sure if it actually was. Mark: I made a joke that we developed into cat videos here at Quiet Light Brokerage just to get more views. We got over some of the strategies that he's employed over the years to be able to get some really crazy returns on his ad spend. And I don't want to quote them off hand, we'll let you listen to this because there are some solid numbers that he puts out and some solid techniques. We really talked about some other techniques that you can do to help out with your organic rankings as well on Amazon. So, anyone that's an Amazon geek or has a business or mobile business on Amazon put this episode on. We got somebody here who's doing this at a pretty high level and very interesting as far as adding that paid portion and maximizing that paid portion to your acquisition channels. Joe: I think you know even if you think you're an expert at it and you do pretty well listening to other folks that do things maybe just slightly differently in the next 30 minutes you maybe will pick up a nugget that will help boost one of your campaigns or decrease your CPA. Mark: All right Michael thank you for joining me. Mike: Hey glad to be here, what's up guys? Mark: All right let's go ahead and start with an introduction and I'm going to let you go ahead and do that like we usually do. Mike: Sure, yes. So, my name is Mike Zagare. I am a recovering physical therapist and I always lead with that because I was doing something from nine to five that I absolutely hated for many, many years. I love that it's helping out people but it was definitely not my passion or my dream job. I'm a thorough grade entrepreneur and I think that runs in my family. And I realized that as I was going through college that this is just like not what I want to do the rest of my life. So actually, my hair is starting to fall out and I kind of went through and was a physical therapist for 10 years. I started and sold a physical therapy home care practice in that time. Thankfully I no longer have that and I can focus now fulltime on Amazon. It has been an amazing journey along the way and a part of that journey was discovering how to build an Amazon business and how to scale that business and get as much traffic and eyeballs to our listings as possible. And that's why we started working with sellers to help that as well. To help them get as many [inaudible 00:05:31.8] for as sufficiently as possible to their listings. Mark: So, when did you start your first Amazon business? Mike: So, I started in 2015 and at the time I had a bunch of … I had a homecare business and I had a bunch of losing entrepreneurial ideas. Actually, the first time I dipped into Amazon it was started off as eBay and I realized well that's not something I can do full time; it's just too time consuming it's not scalable. And then I tried to do retail and online arbitrage. And if you guys have ever heard of that, it can be profitable but I think you really have to be in the right place at the right time and I had no experience. I ended up ordering hundreds and hundreds of the wrong units on my house and completely shut down the post office in doing that. So, like I really had the energy and the intensity but it really had to be channeled in something that was like … something where it was streamlined. Like Amazon FBA was perfect for me because you get to combine value creation and creativity. Create something that's really, really great and new to the marketplace and then it's much more scalable and it's like kind of out of your hands at that point once it gets to the FBA warehouse. Mark: Sure, so with retail arbitrage you're going out and you're finding this kind of products in other places, ordering them, and putting them into Amazon FBA, right? Mike: Yeah that's retail arbitrage. And online arbitrage is finding discounted deals on sites but then the problem with that is if a lot of people found the same deal. So, by the time you got your inventory over to Amazon your profit margins were gone and then you're left with a lot of inventory. So, I just felt like the model wasn't right for me and Amazon FBA was like lethal … definitely the way to go in terms of selling on Amazon. Mark: Sure, and we've had kind of a hierarchy here at Quiet Light as far as the businesses we like to see on Amazon that we consider to be most sellable with the retail arbitrage obviously being towards the bottom of that list because it really requires that special skill in being able to find products. And like you said the problem with that is there's a lot of arbitragers out there. They are looking for all the same opportunities. Everybody has the same equal opportunity for those and it can be pretty difficult to scale that. Not that it can't be done, I've talked to some people that are doing arbitrage at a really, really high level but it's pretty hard to transfer that as well. So when you're saying that you were doing Amazon FBA are you doing private label or did you create a brand and a product? What … where would you fall on that ecosystem? Mike: Yeah, I do private label and we have a brand that we're building. We sell cat products around litter solutions. We started there and basically, we started with one product that did really, really well and we found a niche in the marketplace, made it better, and then we just were the first ones to the market. And then we reinvested all that cash into other products based on the search term report. So basically, we got into the minds of people who are shopping for our products and you can see what they're actually looking for and what they purchased and sometimes it's not always the same thing. So, we would try to find the search terms that were similar to the products we were selling and then come out with those products because we knew that there was an audience there and we knew we could cross sell. And then it steamed rolled into that okay we have a bunch of litter solutions products, why not cat toys and why not this and why not hospitality item and now we're going to health and skin care as well for pets. So, it's just kind of branching out from there and now we have a brand and we're more focused in on building that brand. We have a community manager, we have all these different channels that we're engaging people on. We're getting Facebook groups, YouTube channels, stuff like that to really build up the brand which I know when you get to sell a business I feel like this is the secret sauce that people probably can utilize. Mark: Right and I would agree that brand … being able to have a good brand set up is towards the top end of that scale, right? So, the arbitrage is kind of at the bottom end because it's really, really tough to sell those businesses. It's really tough to transfer those businesses and a brand you obviously have a protection of the brand and the goodwill that comes with that. And even in the pet space too that's awesome man. I know we don't put up our full interviews anymore, we're hopefully going to putting up some clips but your cat is literally like obviously are behind you so. Mike: Yeah, I locked him in the room so he wouldn't make any noise but yeah, he's here and he's the inspiration behind the whole thing. It was me and him. I was a bachelor when the whole thing started and he's been the … he tests all the products so he's at [inaudible 00:09:39.3]. Mark: So, we're now devolving into the world of cat videos at Quiet Light Brokerage. Mike: There we go. Mark: In order to stealth views videos. All right cool so the heart of what I want to get to let's get into like the real meat and potatoes and that is paid product placement on Amazon. And I think there's a lot that we can really talk about here. And I want to start with just sort of the basics with this. And when I say that when I think about an Amazon business, when I know a lot of our buyers are evaluating an Amazon business they're going to take a look at its organic rankings in Amazon. Obviously, you want to have good organic rankings but there's also a really big role that paid placement can take in any Amazon business and especially from a buying opportunity being able to maximize that just in the same way that we would have organic rankings and Google versus paid rankings they are a little bit different they have different flavors too. I'd like to pick your brain for it in the next 20, 25 minutes here about that whole process of paid products within Amazon. So why don't we just kind of start there … what would you describe the difference and kind of the role maybe that a paid product placement on Amazon should take in an Amazon business? Mike: So, it really depends on your strategy. If you're going and you're launching a new product and you're trying to get of the best visibility on Amazon then paid advertising is the way to do it. You can get top line visibility right from the very beginning. And that's something that we've been really doing really well is because now we have an audience and we do paid advertising and we target people from our list over to Amazon and we have them purchase but we also use the paid advertising to supplement that. We love paid advertising because it gives us massive visibility for specific keywords. And we know what people are shopping for and for those specific terms we want to dominate the marketplace. We want to have what's called the sponsored branding ad which is the very top of the ad. We want to have a sponsored product ad which is basically an ad directly to our listing. And then we want to have the organic placement and we call that the swimming the competition approach. Because now we have a lot of visibility for our major keywords and if people see you two or three or sometimes four times because on sponsored branding ads you can have your image in there a couple of times then you're more likely going to get that sale. And the way we look into it is that we make sure that our … what we call the true ACOS which is the average cost of sale which is our ad spend is about 10% of our … [inaudible 00:12:08.7] margin is about 10%. And as long as that's happening we're cool with that. We want to get as much visibility and as much exposure to our brand as possible. So typically, what we look for is what we call an average cost of sale about 40% or less and then we scale at that level. And if it's affecting our account about 10% in total then we're cool with that. When it starts to get more than that then we start to optimize because there's a lot of ways … you can spend a lot of money on Amazon. You have to know how to optimize the right way otherwise you can lose your shirt. You have so many people on that site. And there's different ways to do that with keyword, bid traces, and negative exacts, negative phrases, that kind of stuff. Also sending traffic to the right listing. There're various things you can do but there's a lot to talk about so I'm interested to get into it. Mark: Well let's back up a little bit here because you threw out a couple of numbers here I just want to clarify here. So, it's a 10% into your margins so what do you mean by that? Mike: So, your ad spends, let's say you're spending $10,000 a month and you're making 100k a month then that's 10% percent right there. Mark: Okay and then you said 40% percent of ACOS. Mike: Yeah, so if you're spending 10k a month, let's say you're spending $1,000 on ad spend then you want to make the fourth … so basically the $2,400 you want to make 1,000. That would be 40% ACOS. So, it's 400 in ad spend to make a thousand return on ad spend. Mark: I got it. Thank you. Okay so let's start with just kind of the how this all works. How do you go about optimizing a paid spend because we get a lot of our buyers who … a lot of our listeners are buyers right? They're going to be inheriting a company that has an existing paid account or some paid advertising going on. Where do you start in that evaluation process to find out what you need to do to be able to optimize it? Mike: So, you start by looking at the search term report to see what people are actually searching for and how much the bid prices are. And there's a couple of different ways to optimize you can do on a keyword level. If a keyword is too expensive and it's really not … it's driving a lot of traffic but it's not doing it at a profitable level then that's just not a good thing. You want to start to lower down that keyword bid price to get a lower cost per click. And you really want to determine how many clicks it's going to take you to get that sale. And if it's too many clicks and your average cost per click is too high then you're simply … unless there's another advantage of getting that traffic, maybe you're getting a lot of return customer. You're selling sport supplements and you got to do 100% ACOS to get them in one time and have them come back again and again and again that would be a good idea of wanting to do that. You could be a little bit more aggressive but for somebody like me who sells cat products typically about 12 to 15% of our customers are return customers so we take that into account. But we try to keep it so that it's within our 40% ACOS because of that. And you have to tailor the keywords to make sure that they're not too expensive and that you're wasting all of your ad spend on keywords that are just draining your ad spend. Mark: Okay. All right so you start with a keyword report and then you look in to see what's driving sales right now, the cost, the areas that you could drive that down right? Mike: Yes. Mark: Okay and then where would you go after that? Mike: So basically, we'd start with the keyword report … search term report and then you would also find the search terms that are really, really not doing well at all. Some of them have zero like sales whatsoever but tons of clicks. And those are the ones that you want to start to do a negative exacter phrase on so that you can start to fine tune who's going to your listing and what you're paying for in terms of your ad spend. So, we use a tool inside of entourage called negative word finder which will tell you the words that are never … that have never been associated to a profitable sale. And you find those and you can do a negative phrase match which means any search term that the customer puts in you're not going to get that exposure to your listing and you're never going to get hit again. If you do it on a campaign level your entire campaign will be sensibly shielded from any time somebody types in that word. And then negative exact is like if you could take the exact search term that's not generating any sales and you could use that as a negative exact so that's why you're not getting any exposure to that that search term in its entirety. Mark: How much … this is exactly the same process that you would use with say Google Ad Words itself like you're taking a look to see what people are searching on, the stuff that's not really related or not really driving the traffic to a site, what have you driving conversions that's within the ad words world, how much data do you think you really need before you can start ruling out certain phrases or certain words and adding those negative words? How long do you have to let it run before you can really know and draw any good conclusions? Mike: There's a lot of factors that go into it; seasonality, how new the product is, is the listing seasoned. Because you can make some decisions early on where a listing doesn't have a lot of reviews and doesn't have a lot of questions that people could ask. People could ask questions on a listing so there's a lot of factors that go into it. Typically like a general rule of thumb it could be 10 clicks without a sale is when you start to make some adjustments and optimizations and that's to a really, really good well-seasoned listing. If it's earlier on then there could be a little bit more leniency in terms of when you start to optimize but really the fundamental thing is you have to have a really good listing. You have to have a solid product. You can't just sell a me-too product that's up there just competing based on price. It's got to have a really good high value to people who are searching for it. So, if you start with that then you can really get a better understanding of when you should start to optimize. But the rule of thumb is basically 10 clicks without a sale is when you would start to do some work. Or 10 clicks with a relatively high ACOS you would start to optimize that cost per click so that it's at a better cost … the bid price is better and not as expensive. Mark: Okay so in this case if we're evaluating a business for sale and taking a look at it one of the first things we'll be looking for that low hanging fruit of hey these guys are wasting money on their product sponsored listings spend right? They've got a lot of keywords that they're paying for. We've received 10 maybe 20 clicks we're not getting any sales from them and that cost is pretty high. So that seems like a pretty low hanging fruit there. When you're evaluating the campaign and let's say that it's pretty clean that way and looks like they're doing a decent job of going through and eliminating those nonproductive keywords, where do you look for or what do you look for opportunities to be able to expand a product that they currently have? Mike: So, there's a lot of opportunities when typically you can see keywords that are performing really, really well within the desired ACOS range. Meaning if you're … let's say you got an ACOS of 15% that means for every $15 you're spending you're making a 100. So, you may be missing out on some of the potential opportunity because your bid price is a little bit too low or Amazon doesn't really … maybe your campaign budgets are a little bit too low. So, you want to give Amazon more room to breathe. You want to basically tell them hey this works out for me you know I want to do this any time of the day. And you would then go ahead and optimize your keyword bid price and also raise your campaign budget so that you can get as much exposure to that opportunity as possible. And now it's a lot easier to see that stuff in bulk with software. You can see all of the individual keywords that are performing really, really well over a given period of time and where they really could use a little bit of a boost in terms of their ad spend. So, you can give that more love and then direct traffic there and then negate it elsewhere. Mark: Okay. Do you ever use paid sponsored listings for anything other than just the direct sales? I mean are there some more creative strategies that people can use with these campaigns to be able to maybe do some other parts of like with their organic rankings or other aspects of their account? Mike: There so many things you can do. Yeah, it's really exciting. There're different things that Amazon is coming out with. Now they just came out for sellers and sellers central sponsored brands, headline search ads. So basically, there's a big … there's a much bigger creative element to that and you can really brand to get massive exposure to your brand doing that. And if you've ever seen on Amazon they're very top ad when you go there. There's a [inaudible 00:19:53.2] to the left, there's a headline, and there's three product images and you can direct your traffic to a storefront which is basically your website on Amazon or you can direct it to a single list of items on Amazon. And there's a whole bunch of strategies to do that. Very creative headlines, you have to be really good at copyrighting, good main images, you have to connect the copy to the main image and to the three main products. It is very simple but I feel like there's a lot of opportunity and a lot of sellers really don't take the time to make a good headline. They just kind of put stuff up there and just kind of set in and forget it. And I think that's a really big headline. It also sets the stage for sponsored products and for organic visibility. It's like the first line of defense when people see your brand and then they see unsponsored products they may not want to click on it and they see you organically. And as long as your numbers are right we find that approach really sets stage for a sale. Mark: All right so you're talking about this again once you could be on multiple places so that people have those multiple touch points with you. Okay what are some of these other strategies? You said that there's lots of opportunities, I want to get in to one of these here and see something that the listeners can take away here as something that they could actually implement today. Mike: Right so if you have a brand I think the biggest opportunity is to dig into your search form report and actually find out what people are looking for. That has been the best opportunity there still that people just don't really dig into that as much as they could. So that's like instant intelligence as to what people are looking for and how you can build and expand your brand. The next opportunity I would say is to really dive into sponsored products and headline search ads because a lot of people … well there's opportunity moreso overseas now with sponsored products it's getting a little bit congested in the USA. Canada, UK, Germany, all of these overseas markets there's plenty of opportunity there. If you have a good product in the US that's an easy way to expand. We're getting better numbers over there in terms of our PPC recently as we are in the US. So that's a killer opportunity. And since the world is really open right now there's … the doors have come down. There's plenty of opportunity out there. But in terms of opportunity really coming up with creative ideas and creative products and really diving into that is the way to go in my opinion. Mark: Are you able to share any creative things that you've seen over the past six months? What's one of the most creative … obviously not explaining or giving away anyone's trade secrets here but what are some of the most creative things you've seen in the last six months? Mike: Yeah so, I like to build a listing that incorporates the entire product line. And this basically is you're getting … you're paying for traffic anyways, you're spending a lot of money to get your people to your site why not cross sell your other products, why not … and there's like five or six ways to do it within your listing that I think a lot of sellers aren't doing. You can have an image that has basically a visual of all the products in your line. A bullet point that explains that this is part of a product in your line. You can have a coupon that allows them to purchase another product in that line for a little bit less money. You could have what's called enhanced brand content now which shows the entire product line and has comparison charts with links to your other products and also you can link people to your storefront. So, I feel like that's the big play right now is to get traffic over but then really build the customer [inaudible 00:23:11.7] retarget them with emails and then get them on your sequence and then go from there. And then launching becomes very simple because you have this entire list. We did that process and we have about 7,000 new emails in one year which doesn't seem like a lot but these are customers who came to our site. They basically gave us their information, they registered for a coupon. They're loyal customers and now we're retargeting and also, they're part of our fanbase and we can grow at that rate. That would be a great thing for us. So that's one tip is to get more exposure to other products in your line. Mark: Okay let's talk a little bit about competition this is something that I hear from a lot of people that are looking at the Amazon space looking to possibly buy but aren't quite sure about it and their number one fear and even among sellers for that matter. What I hear is this kind of worry about competition and taking away from that share that maybe they've built up over the years. What are some ways in your opinion that sellers can start to protect against that slow believe that happens so often with product lines? Mike: Yeah it does happen it really does. I mean there's going to be competition within 60 months or less of whatever you're selling. That happens to us with all of our product lines and it's always been about reinventing and coming up with new stuff. If you're not reinventing I feel like there's the entropy is going to take place and that's just inevitable. Also, just keep in mind that Amazon consistently raises their fees. And then also from a PPC perspective there's more competition so the cost per clicks are going up not down. So constantly squeezing out that margin which is something that you have to be very mindful of. So, the protection mechanism that I feel is the best thing is your audience. If there's so many who is loyal to your product brand outside of Amazon … if someone loves you outside of Amazon they're going to come to Amazon to purchase your products even if it's a little bit more expensive. So, you can maintain your profit margins that way. The other thing is having … going where people typically don't go, so oversized items. Like really, really big items. People that are just usually scared away because the cost per unit to purchase that may be a little bit too expensive and basically there's a less … there's a bigger barrier to entry and it scares more people which I feel like is a bigger opportunity. So, if you combine that and even if you sell five or ten of those a day versus 100 widgets a dollar profit it just pays off that way. I think those are ultimately the mechanism to really scale. Mark: And those are things that we've been emphasizing for years. I'm glad that you said that because it makes me look smarter than I probably actually am. But these things, the less desirable is just one that we see you know not with Amazon businesses alone it's actually with any online business, right? The barrier to entry which might be a little bit scary from a buying standpoint. I remember we had a business that was selling a certification program and a lot of buyers are worried because they we're thinking I don't know anything about this how can I actually teach people how to get certified with it. Well you know what that's protection against competition. And so, when you get into that sort of less desirable niches where you have to solve a problem … and I think that's the big thing if you can figure out a solve a problem that problem is something other people are going to have to deal with as well. That's really key. And you're echoing as well with something that Chad Rubin from Skubana told me on the podcast several episodes ago and that is that continual product development. He made the point that Apple comes out with an iPhone every year and pretty much cars come out with a new car every year. It's not that the previous cars don't work well, they do. They could continue to just produce those ones but they want to create some new excitement among their consumers. And then finally get I know I'm literally just reiterating what you said but I think it's important to do so. Moving that brand so it's not just Amazon centric and dependent but creating that brand and kind of loyal customer base outside of Amazon as well. Mike: Yeah so … and one more thing I want to add to that is intellectual property especially at Amazon. I mean that we … I'll give you guys a quick story. So, we sell cat products and we started selling this cooling pad basically two summers ago. And it was a huge seller; a very seasonal item obviously but it was a huge seller. And then the next summer we got an email from a company saying that they had intellectual property rights to that thing. It basically kicked off everybody on Amazon and they are just doing … just normally you can't … now obviously we can't compete with them. And they're making so much money. So, if there is a product out there that you think is … and I've actually had trouble with this. I'm not … I don't have a lot of experience with this but I've never really come up with a product that is truly patentable but I feel like if there is something, some intellectual property you can get and you have something great on Amazon and there's no other competition because you're the only one man you do really well. Mark: Yeah and nobody thinks about the IP portion until it gets crowded right? I mean that's when you start thinking about IP. At first, it's like hey it's a big pie everybody can have some and then you're like why actually this pie is starting to get a little bit crowded. I'd like to be able to protect my slice. But you're right being able protect what you have through intellectual property is a really, really key thing to do and do it early as well. Mike: Oh yeah and then on Amazon it's almost inevitable you'll come up … there'll be people who will try to get your slice. I mean sooner or later and maybe from random countries and sometimes they don't always play the right way. So, it's important to make sure you have that in feel. Mark: Awesome. All right I feel like we could probably branch into another topic but then we would end up going completely off our existing conversation. So, I'm going to have us wrap up right there. I know that you also started PPC Entourage and that is to help Amazon paid accounts correct? Mike: Yes, it is, yeah. Mark: Okay do you want to tells us just a little about what you're doing over there? Mike: Yeah absolutely so in 2016 is when I … I started my business in 2015. 2016 I spent a lot of time with sponsored products and it was just a pain … it was great because we got a lot of visibility but it was frustrating because it just took forever to get it done. So basically, it's my first experience working with a software … a SaaS business and it has been an amazing experience. Basically, what we did is we made sure that everything that we did to scale our business could be done in like a fraction of the amount of time. So, if you're looking to get more exposure to your Amazon business, if you're looking to spend less on ad spend, if you're looking to optimize in a quick efficient way PPC Entourage can help you do that. Now we have bulk edit tools which allow you to look into campaigns … all of your campaigns all at once to see what those winners are. You can get more money and spend more money on those particular keywords and campaigns. And then also we have something called auto pile which is becoming much more intuitive. Basically, something that goes in every single night looks at your metrics looks at the settings that you place and make sure you calculated adjustments to your keywords so that you're not spending a ton of money on ad spend. It makes adjustments every single night. So that's one of the really cool, we also just launched Spotlight which is our headline search. Basically, our solution to headline search which allows you to create 27 different variations of headline search ads. Anyone who's on seller central knows it's one at a time. It's a huge pain in the butt. It takes forever but this allows you to find the best products. It allows you to find the best images. It allows you to find the best headlines. We have a headline creator. It lets you find 27 different combinations and you can slowly send them off to Amazon over time and then optimize those ads. So that's PPC Entourage and PPC Entourage spotlight and yeah, it's a growing business and we're so excited about where it can go. Mark: Awesome. Well thank you so much for coming on the podcast here and if anyone wants to reach you what's the best way for them to contact you? Mike: Sure, you can go to PPCentourage.com or you can also go and email me at mike@ppcentourage.com. Mark: Awesome. I'll include those links in the show notes. All of those will be at the bottom. Just scroll past the transcript and you'll be able to see it. Thank you so much for coming on and let's have you on again in the future. Mike: All right thanks. Take care Mark.   Links and Resources: PPC Entourage Email Mike  

L.A. weighs in on Swedes who are getting implanted with CHIPS! Are people being conditioned to accept the Mark? Are we headed toward a CIVIL WAR with vitriolic statements like we heard from Maxine Waters?

L.A. weighs in on Swedes who are getting implanted with CHIPS! Are people being conditioned to accept the Mark? Are we headed toward a CIVIL WAR with vitriolic statements like we heard from Maxine Waters?

Start Time For 1st Half: Hottest Sports News of The Week (14:28 Mark) Start Time For Halftime: Coach Brown's 2-Minute Drill (26:50 Mark) Start Time For 2nd Half: 2018 NBA Finals Breakdown (38:14 Mark) Are people really tired of Warriors vs. Cavs? It’s the fourth consecutive year these two teams have matched up in the championship round. It also brings a ton of story-lines. Golden State, with the best collection of talent on one NBA roster in recent history, versus Cleveland and the single greatest basketball player of his generation, or perhaps any generation. LeBron James, Stephen Curry and Kevin Durant on the same court with everything at stake, and I don’t know how the 2017-18 season could end in a more entertaining way. Check out Episode #222 as @JaiHov , @JEasley84 and @FSP_Wezzy discuss the hottest sports news of the past week and breakdown the top storylines of the 2018 NBA Finals.

There are a number of common questions that policyholders ask in regards to reporting claims. In this episode, ALPS Claims Attorney John Ries talks with Mark about some of questions he often hears. John also sheds light on why it's important for attorneys to call their legal malpractice insurance provider even if they suspect that an issue or event may give rise to a claim.   ALPS In Brief, The ALPS Risk Management Podcast, is hosted by ALPS Risk Manager, Mark Bassingthwaighte.   Transcript: MARK: Welcome to ALPS In Brief, the ALPS risk management podcast. We're recording here at ALPS home office in the historic Florence building in downtown Missoula, Montana. I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the ALPS risk manager. I have the pleasure of sitting down today with ALPS claims attorney John Reis. John, before we get into some discussions here, can you tell our audience just briefly a little bit of your background here at ALPS? JOHN: I've been here eight years. Before that, I was in private practice in Washington state for about five years. Then before that, I was in Oregon as a prosecuting attorney. MARK: Ah, interesting. Very good, very good. Both of us in terms of the roles that we're in get some common questions, which are just concerning, “I think I might've made a mistake. There's a problem out here. What happens? What do I need to do? What should I do?” The idea today is just to have some discussions about the claims process. If I am an attorney and I'm concerned that a mistake has happened, can you talk me through what the basic reporting requirements are? When do I need to report this? You see where I'm going? I don't even know. JOHN: In the past, and this is changing starting next year, we have in the past asked for attorneys to give us notice as soon as reasonably possible. Like all attorneys, reasonable is up for interpretation. Now we are changing it to “immediately notify us.” Basically, I always tell attorneys when they call, inevitably they'll say, “I wasn't sure if I should report this or not because it's not a claim yet.” Sometimes there are claims; they're just flat out “I missed the statute and I had to my tell my client.” MARK: Right, of course. JOHN: Sometimes, it's a little more in the gray area. “I've just lost a summary judgment motion. Is that a claim?”, or, “I may have forgotten to list an expert. Is that a claim?” I always advise people that it is a claim as soon as you think it's a claim. If you're thinking about whether or not to report it, you should just default and automatically report it, and not wait and see if it develops into an actual malpractice claim. There's a lot of problems if you wait. There's always the problem down the road. Someone will accuse you of having knowledge of it and not telling ALPS. MARK: Right, right. JOHN: Nobody wants to fight over that. ALPS doesn't want to. We'd rather you just tell us up front. It doesn't hurt you any, so you might as well tell us as soon as you think it's a possible claim. MARK: Right. A takeaway for me here is some people just assume “I don't have a claim until I've been sued,” and that's not really what this is about. It's about awareness. If you have questions or concerns, just call us. We'll sit down and work through it. I think just as a side note, we don't open everything that is reported as a claim. JOHN: Right. MARK: Would you explain that just briefly? JOHN: Yeah. We have the choice. Sometimes someone will call in and it's clearly not a claim or even a potential claim, and so we don't even open anything. We just put a note on the file. Other times, maybe many years down the road, it can turn into a claim or not. We'll open those as circumstances. A circumstance, we don't report it when you go to another insurance company, heaven forbid. We don't report those, so it's just an internal notation. If it does develop into a claim, they can turn it into a claim down the road. We call them circumstances. Sometimes, you'll see some insurance companies say, “We don't require you to report circumstances.” Basically what they're saying is, “We don't require you to notify us of things that are not actual claims,” which we think is problematic. That's why we ask you to report even potential claims, what we call circumstances. MARK: It seems to me, the value of that is “we're just going to pin down coverage.” JOHN: Yeah. MARK: “We've taken care of our reporting requirements just in case it's a little muddy.” JOHN: Right. MARK: Okay, okay. So, I've had a call with you or someone to chat with me, and the decision is, “Okay, this is something that should be reported.” Is there a formal process that I need to go through to formally report a claim? JOHN: Required in writing. We don't have a form. A lot of people call and ask, “Is there a form we have to fill out?” There's no form. Oftentimes, it's best you just call us first and we'll give you an idea of what we want so you're not sitting down and writing a 10-page letter that doesn't really help us that much. We just require written notice that just basically puts us on notice of what the issues are. Has what has been missed, what's being alleged, who the client is, when did this happen. It could be as short as a paragraph, depending on what the error or the potential error is. MARK: So you're talking about writing. Can I do this even via email? JOHN: Email's fine. Fax, email, regular mail. MARK: Okay, very good. Now you and I both know we get these questions a lot too: “Are you guys going to raise my rates?” This kind of thing. Is there an impact? What happens? How does ALPS deal with the fact that a claim has been reported? When we think about underwriting, rates, those kinds of things going forward. JOHN: Yeah, there's no impact on your future rates for just reporting claims. MARK: Mm-hmm (affirmative). JOHN: In fact, I would consider it to be more of a benefit to you as far as underwriting, that you're more cautious than the average person if you call in something that's maybe not a claim. At least it shows that you're thinking about the issue, which is much better than the other way, if you call us up six months after the claim has been made. MARK: Right. JOHN: If anything, I think it helps your future rates. There's not formula that really takes it into consideration. It all goes into the black magic of underwriting. There's not direct impact on your rates. MARK: So what I'm hearing is if I report a claim, you guys do your thing in claims and provide excellent customer service, and the claim goes away. I'm successfully [defended 06:45]. I'm hearing that that's really not going to be a problem. How about I've blown a statute and there is a significant loss here? Let's say there's a $300,000 loss and I don't know, $50,000 or something in defense costs, these kinds of things. Is that a similar outcome? What happens rate-wise there? JOHN: Yeah, the first thing that happens is there's a surcharge. Anything over $30,000 is surcharged. MARK: Whether it's loss or defense? JOHN: Right, loss or expense. I don't know what the exact number is, but the majority of claims are probably in the surcharge level. A fair number don't ever get to that high number. We can resolve them for next to nothing, or nothing at all. The ones that go over $30,000, the surcharge is relatively small. It's half the basic rate, which is 1900. It's a $950 surcharge, but that's added into the formula mid-way through, so the final number could be higher than that. MARK: Are there any obligations that I have under a policy when a claim arises? JOHN: Well the only real obligation is you have to report it. When the new policies go into effect beginning next year, you have to immediately notify ALPS as soon as you become aware of a potential or actual claim. That's your only requirement, is to immediately notify us. All of the claims attorneys have cellphones. We take calls 24 hours a day. Sometimes people say, “Oh, this came in over the weekend.” You can call us on the weekend. MARK: I get that I need to report the claim, but how about as you handle the claim, go through the process? Do I have obligations along those lines? JOHN: Yeah. The first thing that we'll tell you after you report the claim, if it is a claim and it's not just a potential claim or a circumstance, we'll ask for a complete copy of your file. That'll be the first, probably the biggest task you have as an insured is copying a file, depending on who the- MARK: – the importance of file maintenance and keeping files, but … JOHN: Yeah. Some people or some firms and some attorneys have a lot better record-keeping procedures than others. For some people, it's not a big deal. They can just hit a button, copy it to a memory stick, and mail it to us. Other people, their banker box is scattered through several offices. Papers are loose, they're difference sizes. I understand that's a bigger task. Some files are just plain huge. They can take a whole room. If that's the case, sometimes we can limit the request. Just give us the pleadings for now, or just give us the correspondence for now. Just enough to get us going. I guess the flip side would be if, we usually err on the side of just getting everything. It's just like when you get a new claim or a new case as a lawyer. You want all of the information, or in discovery, you want all the information. You don't want just the little bits that they give you. If there's too much there, we'll let you know and we can send it back, or just tell you not to send it to us to begin with. MARK: Do you prefer that digitally? JOHN: It's a lot easier for us digitally. I guess the downside of digitally, sometimes people copy a file, if there's multiples of thousands of pages, if it just goes from one to ten thousand, it's a little hard to sort through. We manage. MARK: I can imagine that one. JOHN: Yeah. It happens a lot, so we've gotten pretty good at going through and sorting it out. Most files are, even poorly kept, some files are better kept than others but all files have some natural order to them. Pleadings, correspondence, notes. There's a predictable outcome to each one. MARK: Going back to this sort of example of blowing a statute or something, I realized, “Oh my gosh, I really have made a mistake here and messed up here. This is going to be a malpractice claim.” Do you have any thoughts or advice that you would share in terms of, what do I do with my client? Should I just run out and fall on my sword and say, “[inaudible 11:18], I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'll make it right?” What is your advice? Walk through that, that issue of client information or management. JOHN: That's a tricky one. Knock on wood, I've never had to deal with that, even when I was in private practice. I can understand that's a difficult situation. I think most attorneys really want to tell their client, “I'll make it right,” or they feel bad. If it's a missed statutes of limitations, for example, they feel bad inevitably. Any error I guess an attorney feels bad. Then the next question is, “Well how do I communicate that to the client?” Well I guess we all tell the insured that you can be honest with them and tell them that the mistake was made. The only thing you can't do is tell them that the insurance company will pay you a certain amount, or that the insurance company will fix it somehow. You have to limit it to just, “I made a mistake. Here's what the error was.” You can't say, “And you've been damaged in the amount of x dollars. Just call up John and he'll cut you the check on Monday.” In the policy, it requires the insured to cooperate with ALPS. Part of that is to not undertake any debts or any obligations with your client. Within that limitation though, you can pretty much tell your client anything that you feel is necessary. That you feel bad, you wish it never happened. All of that's fine. It will come back in your deposition, so you have to be aware of that. If you say that you feel bad and you wish it never happened, you'll be asked about that. Keep that in mind. I think the best advice is just to tell them succinctly as possible, “I made an error. Your case is no longer viable. I've reported this to my insurance carrier. Here's the claim number. Please call him or her as soon as you can.” That's good enough. MARK: Well, my takeaway here is not to be afraid. If I am concerned that I've made a misstep, just to call and talk to the people that are experienced in handling these kinds of things and you will work with any of the attorneys calling in to try to understand, “Is this reportable or not?”, understand, explain how the process works. The other takeaway that I have here is, “Hey, if I am afraid I've made a mistake, I want to call ALPS first and have some discussions about how to handle this because I can get into some trouble in terms of just coverage issues and these kinds of things. I want to be informed.” For those of you listening, any time a claim comes up, I would just, “Hey, call John and he'll take you through the process. Well John, thank you very much for spending a little time. Thanks to all of you for listening to our show. If any of you happen to have any questions about the issues we've discussed today, please don't hesitate to contact me at mbass@alpsnet.com. We'd love your feedback on the podcast, including other issues you'd like to hear us cover. Thanks again. It's been a pleasure.

  Mark sits down with Julie Patterson, a longtime ALPS Business Development Representative, bringing with her two decades of experience helping law firms across the country understand the importance of selecting the right coverage to protect their law firms. In this episode Mark and Julie discuss legal malpractice insurance costs in terms of what a firm should actually be getting for their premium dollar. ALPS In Brief, The ALPS Risk Management Podcast, is hosted by ALPS Risk Manager, Mark Bassingthwaighte. Transcript: MARK: Welcome to another episode of ALPS In Brief, The ALPS Risk Management Podcast. I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, ALPS risk manager, and I'm sitting down today at the ALPS offices in Missoula, Montana, with JULIE. Julie has been with ALPS on the business development team for 20 years. She brings with her a wealth of knowledge on legal malpractice insurance, and today we are going to talk about the cost of legal malpractice insurance, focusing on what really should you be getting for your premium dollar. Julie, welcome. JULIE: Thank you, Mark. I appreciate that nice intro. MARK: Well, you're very welcome. You're very welcome. I think it's a fair question. Malpractice insurance is … It's an investment. It's not an insignificant line item of business year to year. When I think about I'm cutting this check each year and buying my ALPS policy, really what am I getting, what should I be getting when I think about malpractice insurance? JULIE: Good question. It's very important for your firm to have your malpractice insurance carrier picked out and go through their features with a reputable person at the company to help you out with everything. You want to look for somebody who is going to partner with you, who's going to understand what you do in the course of your day-to-day business and be able to provide support where you need it, but also peace of mind for exactly what you're buying for your firm. MARK: I think that's a great point in the sense … Heaven forbid, if I have some significant claim come up at some time, I mean, I really am counting on the carrier to have my back. What I'm hearing is the relationship here I really should look into. JULIE: You should. MARK: That this is a partner. JULIE: It is, and that's very important because you want to have access to the people when you need to talk to them, or if you have a claim in your firm, you need to be able to talk to that person who can help you, ease your mind, and get the ball rolling for you. MARK: Are there other things that come to mind? JULIE: Absolutely. You want to look at the policy features. You want to see what they offer in limits and deductible. You want to access your clientele and your risk and what you can sleep with at night for your limits and deductible. That's an important factor as well. MARK: In policy features, there's one thing I think that's important and I'm not sure everyone fully appreciates at times. You can sit down and compare policies at times and everything seems to be exactly the same except one is significantly cheaper. What we're really getting at is there's some policies out there that are what we refer to as cannibalizing policies. I think that might be an important distinction. Can you share what I'm talking about, what this issue is? JULIE: Yes. That's very important. A lot of times when you see a quote come in to your firm for a cheaper price, that means that they're trying to buy the business in your area. They may not know what the jurisdiction brings in claims experience. They may be just trying feelers out there to see what kind of business they can bring in the door, but typically if it's a cheaper policy, it's going to be cannibalizing. You are not going to have limits on the outside of your per claim limit, and you will probably have a hammer clause, meaning if a claim were to arise and you don't agree to settle it with the carrier who you've been insured with, they are going to walk away, and you're going to be left holding the bag. MARK: Okay. I want to make sure that we're clear. When we talk about limits being inside or outside, if I have my defense costs inside limits so that every dollar that gets spent on defense is going to erode what's available for the loss payment. JULIE: You're exactly correct. It's going to erode that per claim limit, and you want to look for defense costs on the outside of your per claim limit with the carriers that you are shopping with. MARK: That seems to me to be a pretty important thing. JULIE: That's very important. MARK: Just to understand, so two policies that are on their face may provide a million dollars in coverage, but if the cheaper policy has defense cost inside limits, I'm really not getting a million dollar policy, so that's why it's cheaper. JULIE: That's correct. MARK: Okay. That makes sense. That makes sense. Continue on. We've talked about the relationship, we've talked a bit about some of the features and looking at some of the pricing issues. Are there other things that come to mind yet? JULIE: Well, the add-on to the pricing, responsible pricing. You want to look for a carrier that's had some experience in that jurisdiction, that's been there a while. They know the climate, they know the jurisdiction, and they are going to rate accordingly and responsibly. If you see a carrier come in real low, they're just trying to buy your business, and they might do a bait and switch the following year. Be careful when you're shopping and looking at pricing. MARK: Again, it seems to me, is it worth even asking how long you have been in a market if I'm shopping and- JULIE: Absolutely. The other important factor is if that carrier is endorsed by the state bar. Many state bars around the United States will endorse a carrier, meaning they're giving back to that community, that legal profession in that community, and that's an important factor as well. It comes with a- MARK: Okay. All right, so what I'm hearing on sort of the takeaway with this piece is just looking at commitment to the local market, that I want to work with an insurer that is committed long term. That makes a lot of sense. Okay. JULIE: Customer service plays into it as well. You want somebody who's going to return your calls, who's going to answer your questions, respond to your email in a timely fashion, and hopefully under 24 hours. You shouldn't have to chase them down. They should be willing to talk to you, whatever it is that comes about and you need help with. MARK: Okay. Excellent. Excellent. Boy, I wish I had known that years ago, let me tell you, before I got into working with an insurance company. Are there any final thoughts or other things you'd like to share, Julie? JULIE: Yeah. Probably just a quick input on claims handling. Double check on how they handle the claims, how you report a claim, are you going to be assigned a claims attorney to work with or a claims adjuster, very important. You really want somebody who is a claims attorney, who is an attorney who can talk on your level, and find out who their defense panel is in your jurisdiction, and if you have input there. That's important as well. You really want input instead of them picking an attorney that maybe is somebody you don't respect in your jurisdiction. MARK: Right, right. This has been great stuff. The big takeaway for me is this isn't just like going to a store and picking out some item for home or something. What you're really saying is we're entering into a partnership here and heaven forbid again, something come up in terms of a blown statute or some other type of significant claim. What you're really telling me is that the relationship that I've created with the carrier is really going to be key in terms of how we get through all this in the end. JULIE: It's very key. MARK: Yeah. Good stuff. Good stuff. Well, thank you very much for joining us today. JULIE: You're welcome. Yeah, thank you. MARK: Thanks to all of you for listening to the show. If any of you have any questions about the issues Julie and I have discussed, please don't hesitate to contact me here at ALPS at mbass@alpsnet.com. We'd love your feedback on the podcast including hearing about any other issues or topics you'd like to hear us cover. That's it. Thanks again, Julie. Thanks to all of you. JULIE: Thank you.

Interview w/ Tim Ballard & Mark Mabry Tim: The guy’s name was Marble. Mark: Marble the child molester. Tim: His name was Marble, and he looked like a marble. El Centro childporn... Mark: Child Fugitive Caught in Calexico? 'Child Pornography Fugitive Caught in Calexico Port' Tim: No. Mark:  Imperial Valley Press. 'A man suspected of having child pornography was arrested in Calexico, El Centro, indicted in child sex crime'. Tim: Is his name Marble? Mark: Man, Imperial... "An Imperial man was arrested on suspicion of possession of child pornography on Tuesday, after authorities allegedly found child pornography on his computer. Homeland Security investigators, special agents began investigating local internet activity about child pornography."   Intro: You are listening to Slave Stealer. "It is a world that I know I understand better than most people, but you don’t even know how real and how huge it is. There are laws put in place to protect kids, and one of the laws, surprise, surprise, is you can’t sell them. If you guys are traffickers, you’d come in just like this. This is what happens. This is the core of the problem."   Tim: Welcome to Slave Stealer podcast. I am here shouting too loud for... Mark: You broke the mike! Tim: ...with co-host Mark Mabry, but we welcome you, and this is our kind of Throwback Thursday version We’re just going to talk about couple of interesting things that we think you should know about.    Mark: One in particular... People ask, "Do you do domestic work?" "Is everything overseas?" So, I want a domestic Throwback Thursday. Tim: Yeah, we... See, it’s interesting. We... I say about half our, half our case load right now is domestic, but the domestic cases are the ones we cannot readily talk about because they are generally more sensitive, because they require more... They require a different set of tools, they are law enforcement sensitive - a lot of software, a lot of techniques that require us to go online and do things that we can’t reveal to the public because there are countermeasures that the bad guys could utilize if they knew what we were doing. So...  Mark: Like what? Tim: Well, let me...let me just tell you and ruin every case we have pending! So yeah, we do a ton of domestic work, but because of the nature of it, we don’t get to talk too much about it. We let our law enforcement partners talk about it. They come out with a press release, and then we just point our donors to it. And they are usually kind enough to mention us in it, and we leave it at that.   Mark: Yeah. What do you find... Before we jump into that, give me like kind of a glossary of key elements for this story that...a few little background tidbits that will help us understand things that you are going to say in the story. Are there any like technical things we need to understand? Tim: No, I mean, you should just know that things like child pornography and acquiring children, in the United States in particular, are readily available on the internet - mostly in the dark web. These are the places that Google is not going to reach.    Mark: You mean Google does not reach everything? Tim: Google does not reach everything. There are many parts of the internet that are impossible for Google to reach, and these are the places where the pedophiles flock to. They network, they trade in child pornography, they negotiate child sex deals, and we are way behind in terms of our response to this. And so - when I say we,  I mean the nation, law enforcement in general - and so we are working to better the solution to that problem - building software, working with some of the most advanced technology companies on the planet, working with the top U.S. officials in this area. And we are building tools that will allow law enforcement to go into these dark places and root out these bad guys.    Mark: Are there...on the market right now - or not on the market, in the space right now - there are software solutions that are good. What are some of the good guys out there with great software that are busting... Is Thorn? Tim: Oh, absolutely yeah! So Thorn, which is Ashton Kutcher and Demi Moore's foundation - they have internet computer gurus/engineers who are constantly in a think tank developing software. They have developed tools, for example - and they have been open about this - tools that allow law enforcement to identify when a child is actually soliciting himself or herself. And the reason... And it has to do with how they are writing the post. Now, the posts look like they are coming from some pimp, but the pimp takes the kid and forces them to write their own advertisement on Backpage or Craigslist, or different social media networks - Facebook. And so it looks like it is coming from an adult.   Mark: Or a kid. Looks like it is coming from an adult, but it’s a kid. Tim: They are trying to make it look like it is coming from an adult, or that a pimp is negotiating the deal, when in fact the child himself or herself is writing it. Mark: Under duress. Tim: Under duress. And so the software actually has...looks for key identifiers that would indicate that it’s a child.   Mark: Voiceprint things. Tim: And then they would...yes, and verbage and different things. And then that would allow law enforcement to go solicit that individual in their current capacity to pull them out and find them. So that’s some software that Thorn is involved in building.    Mark: That’s cool! Way to go Demi and Ashton Kutcher - on the good guy list. Tim: Good guy list. Mark: Ok, that’s... Let’s storm straight into the story that I’d like you to tell today. It happened in Imperial Valley. Talk to me. Tim: So it was, again it was... We identified somebody through means I can’t reveal, but it was somebody who was dealing in the dark net. Mark: Now, we were there doing some training. Can you reveal that? Tim: Yeah. I mean that’s how...that’s how it started. We were training... Mark: Yeah, walk me through the whole story. Tim: We went down to Imperial County and we trained law enforcement - several agencies - on how to go on the dark net and find people who are trading in child pornography. And during the training, we found this manual, this 'how to' manual. And it was multiple pages - I want to say somewhere between 40 and 50 pages long. Mark: How to what? Tim: Well, I am getting to that, ok. It’s 'how to'... Mark: Oh, you are saving that? Tim: I am saving that, yeah, the punchline. Mark: Awesome. Stay tuned. Tim: ...how to court and ultimately rape a child. That’s what the manual was. And it said things like - and this is something that had been traded amongst many pedophiles... Mark: So this manual has a title on it in pretty script that says, 'How to court and rape a child'? Tim: I don’t...I can’t tell you that that is the exact language, but that is what the manual was. And it talks about everything from how do you find a child - "well, find a niece or nephew that has friends and invite them over," like starting there. And then from there, these are the kind of gifts you can give them, here's the kind of things you can say to them so they trust you...and then it takes you down this whole dark horrific path to the point where you are controlling this child completely and abusing them sexually. Mark: So you had... You found this manual in the training on the dark web. Tim: On the dark web, being traded by someone who was in Imperial County. And then following up... And again, I can’t get into details of how we did this, but following up, we were able to - in an undercover capacity - able to ascertain the same person also possessed quite a bit of child pornography: child rape videos and images. Mark: And then what? Tim: And then, after that, we decided that this training should end with the search warrant for this individual’s home being at least mostly written. And that’s what we did. And so we were able to do the training, come back a week or so later after they got the paperwork in place, judge signed the warrant, and we were able to accompany the Imperial County sheriff’s office as they raided the home of this individual and seized his computer and talk to him. Mark: Are you allowed to say his name? Tim: Sure, yeah! He’s been convicted, it’s open, it’s public - his name is, his last name is Marble. Mark: That is such a creepy pedophile name. Tim: Why? Mark: Marble. I don’t know, that’s like a movie character name. Tim: Yeah. Mark: "Mr. Marble, we’d like to have a look around." So, were there any big or little surprises at the house? Tim: So, yeah, a couple funny things... As law enforcement breached the door, he instantly said - we didn’t tell him why we were there - the minute the door was breached, he said, "Other people have been using my computer too!" "Well, we didn’t say we were here for your computer," you know, "I’m not the only one, who uses it!" So it was obvious - he ended up confessing everything. And it was... Some of these cases get depressing, you know. You want to hate these guys completely because of what they are doing and the threat they pose. He actually told one of the sheriff deputies: "It’s a good thing you caught me," because, he said, he was in the process of being a foster parent to a 7-year-old girl. And he said, "If I got that little girl, I was going to rape her. That’s why I was doing it. So it is a good thing you caught me." And a lot of these guys, from my experience, do say that. They admit that they are monsters. And they don’t like that they are in this place. And some are almost relieved to get caught and be put away before they can really hurt somebody. I mean, it’s like they’ve lost control of their lives - they are so addicted to this horrific desire and passion and everything else. And so this guy in the interrogation, the thing that made it kind of sad... And we have video of him, we can probably put at least part of the video up on the website - he started talking about his life and how he was sexually abused as a child. You know, we talk a lot about how people can become addicted to child pornography because they start looking at pornography and that changes their brain - it basically creates brain damage, shrinkage in the brain, because of the overstimulation of the frontal lobes of the brain because that’s what people are going for, right, trying to get this chemical reaction and they overuse it and they overrun it and that ruins their life. It hurts their opportunity to have a normal, healthy, romantic relationship, you know, because their brain is now demented, and porn is the only thing that they recognize as fulfilling that need. It’s really sad. That’s a choice people make, like drugs. And it takes them to a dark place where they end up in jail. And all the guys - everyone who is a pedophile abusing children - are a threat to children and need to go to jail. But this case was a little bit different, and we see this often too. When you are abused as a child and that becomes your first sexual experience... And I’ve talked to so many psychologists to try to understand these guys - these guys that we're investigating, interrogating. And they said it is absolutely true: when your first sexual experience as a child or a teenager, whatever that experience is, that becomes what your brain, as it’s still forming... It’s still, really physically hasn’t formed completely and so it’s still taking ideas and concepts and ingraining them into your person. And so sex becomes, to these kids who are being molested, can become a relationship that is defined by an adult and a child. And that’s what their brain recognizes as sex. So when they get older, and they start developing their sexuality, what they know to be that sexuality is relationships, sexual relationships, between an adult and a child. So they then become the offender.    Mark: Now, to be clear, not every child that was molested grows up to become an offender... Tim: Absolutely. Mark: ...or has that predisposition. Tim: Absolutely. That’s not... Yeah, it’s not every...it’s certainly not every person who is abused, but it happens quite a bit. Mark: It’s a factor in a lot of people we catch. Tim: It’s a factor, and in the case of this man, that’s what he was telling us - that he had been abused. And I mean, you listen to the interrogation and it makes you sad. You know he needs to go to jail because he is a threat. He admits himself he needs to go to jail and he’s a threat. But when you hear his story, you realize how tragic this whole thing is. It’s so cyclical.   Mark: Is there a more... And I love to hear you say that and it breaks my heart too, because there’s...seems like it’s really easy, and we do it frequently. Some of the bad guys, like Fuego and these guys that we bust that are selling kids - they are horrible monsters. And then there are guys like Marble who...there’s a high degree of sympathy where you're like, "Man, I’m just sad for your ruined, shattered life that started out ruined and shattered and you were left to try to pick up the pieces." Like, how do you go about your job sympathetically or empathetically? You know what I am saying?   Tim: You just carry that sadness with you, but you don’t regret for one second putting the guy behind bars. Mark: Yeah. Tim: Because there’s nothing more important than children and their safety and the preservation of their innocence. So they have to go to jail. And you just look at them and you are sympathetic to their plight, and you hope that they can have redemption and they can somehow be healed from their brain damage.   Mark: You know, it’s interesting. Our intro music on the Slave Stealer podcast is - you know the intro sequence where you are talking about, "They look like you, and this guy and that guy" - that actually took place in an interrogation room in Haiti. And you can see it on "The Abolitionists", the documentary that is coming out on April 8th, that you are actually lecturing me. It was our very first op that I accompanied you on and we busted those two ladies who were selling kids, and I said to you, "Man, I’m a little torn up here." Do you remember that?    Tim: Yeah, absolutely! Mark: And you went off and you were like, "Listen, this is hard," and you essentially said the same thing. But I understand it now with a little more time under my belt.   Tim: Yeah. Look, you never... And it’s, it was a shocking thing for me when I started doing these cases - and this is outside even child cases, drug cases, any kind of case. There is an element of human sadness when you are taking someone from their family - even as bad as they are, there are people that love them and can’t believe they made these decisions. And you are the guy taking them away in handcuffs and putting them in jail for a long time. And you can’t help but feel an element of human sympathy, you know. And you don’t know what decisions led, you know, what things happened to this person that led them to make these decisions. But that doesn’t mean for a second that you don’t wish they were in jail. Mark: Yeah. Tim: You know they need to go to jail, but it’s rarely this total victorious, just, "Yeah, we did this!" You know, it’s... There can be some of that, but the whole thing is sad. The whole thing is tragic. It is tragic for everybody involved, especially for the victims, especially for the children, the parents. But also, in some ways, for the bad guys... Mark: Yeah. Tim: But it doesn’t mean you stop doing it. Mark: I think that’s a great little Throwback Thursday moment. Sign us off, man. Tim: Thanks for tuning in, and we will see you next time on Slave Stealer podcast.

Tim, Mark & Marisol Interview 00:00 Tim: When you rape a child, you lose rights forever. That’s it! You lose rights forever. Somehow we don’t understand this. And again, you can serve your sentence and everything else, but you still have lost rights. One of those rights you lose is you don’t get to travel around the world with anonymity. We are going to talk about where you are. We are going to watch you. Is that so unreasonable? I mean, the argument is that, well if they travel to some place like Iran and we tell the Iranian Government, they might kill him. Well, you know what, that is his choice to travel to Iran after raping children. Don’t rape kids! How about that?! Let’s start with that. 00:36 Mark: If you do it twice, we are sending you to Iran with a big tag on your head, ‘I rape kids’. 00:40 Tim: That should be the punishment, right? That should be the sentence. 00:42 Marisol: We do that for terrorism and we give up their rights that way. It should be no different. Intro 00:50 You are listening to Slave Stealer. 00:54 Tim: It is a world I know and understand better than most people, because you don’t even know how real and how huge it is. There have been laws put in place to protect kids, and one of the laws - surprise, surprise - is that you can’t sell them. If you guys are traffickers, you have come in just like this. This is what happens, this is the core of the problem. Tim: Marisol, thank you for joining us on Slave Stealer podcast. Marisol: Oh, it’s my pleasure. Tim: Marisol Nichols is our friend, and actress, and social activist. She has been on ‘Criminal Minds’, ‘24’, ‘Blind Justice’, ‘NCIS’ - all these cop shows. Does that have anything to do...or is that just a coincidence with your passion to fight crime?   Marisol: I am sure it does. I am sure it does. I did so much resource playing different kinds of cop roles and agent roles and stuff that it just kind of, by default, dealt with me into this world.   Tim: Tell us about your foundation, and we’ll talk about how we met and what we are doing together with you. Marisol: Sure! So I have got involved in trafficking maybe three or four years ago, and the whole reason I started my foundation was... Well, there are a couple of reasons. One was, like, the more I learned, the more I found out about it, the more I was like, "I have to do something." I can not do something. It can’t be something that I can sit back and say, "Those poor people over there, how horrible for them." That’s… I can’t sleep at night unless I do something. And there were many, many, many nights that I wouldn’t sleep because the more I learned, the more, you know, horrific it is. So forming my own foundation - it was sort of a natural thing that came out of meeting with different organizations and legislators - you know, the people that live and work in this field - to see how I could help, what could I do. I have, you know, many, many friends in the business, both in front of the camera and behind the camera, and anyone and everyone I would talk to were like, “What can I do? How can I help?” And because of that is how I started doing these briefings and big events, educating a particular audience about what is happening not only in our world and on our planet, but also in our own backyard. Tim: So, question for you, because I don’t know the answer to this question but it bugs me. I mean, this is the greatest plague on the planet. There is nothing worse than this and yet, we, our presidential candidates, aren’t talking about it. It is kind of still a vague word, you know, people, trafficking… What is going on? Why can’t people see it? Marisol: Two reasons. And I don’t actually even blame people for not seeing - I blame the people that are in charge of our entertainment. I blame...I really do, I truly do, because I think that we have created a world where we can’t get purposely distracted by Kardashians and social media and whatever other things that they want coming down the line as a buzzword of the week. So we don’t pay attention to what is really really going on. And that our news channels are not very forthcoming - some of them are really wonderfully, will do pieces on it and pieces on it, but to me, like you said, is nowhere near fit to what is needed. And I am sure that you have had this strange [inaudbile] that when you do meet people that find out about it, their world is completely rocked and they are completely changed and they want to help. Tim: Yep. Marisol: And I honestly believe that there are, you know, certain forces out there that don’t want to see this end. Mark: Name names. Marisol: Well look, who is profiting? I mean, you can follow money: who makes the most money from this? Whether it is sex slavery or labor bondage or what. Who is making money from this? And you can trace it back and trace it back. And Tim hit it right on the head - why aren’t our presidential candidates talking about this? This is a huge issue; it is bigger than anything. Tim: Yeah. Marisol: He is right. Why isn’t there a giant spotlight on who is profiting from that? Who is benefitting and keeping people enslaved? Tim: It boggles my mind, but I do believe like you believed it - if we can get people to see it and they become converts, our politicians will have to start talking about it if there is a demand for that subject.   Marisol: Exactly. Tim: And we are not yelling loud enough yet. We are trying to yell loud and be a voice for these victims. Now you got to come with us - we took you down to visit some of the victims that we had rescued in Haiti, and then on our way back we stopped in an unnamed city. Marisol actually went undercover with us, and... Tell me, tell me about the whole experience, how you felt seeing those kids. And then, I mean, you kind of got this cool experience where you got to see these victims and, all of a sudden, you are thrown into this - one of the people who travels and abuses these kids, one of the partakers. What was that like?     Marisol: It is haunting because it is one thing to read about the issue, talk about the issue, hear the stories, look at videos; it is another thing to see it firsthand, and particularly meeting the abuser... I mean, this was... You know, you wouldn’t recognize him down the street. You’d think this is your college guy, this is your neighbor, this is your… You know, he looks like an everyday Joe. And the casualness in which he would talk about doing these things to girls was astonishing and also heart-breaking. You realize that these are human beings, right? You realize that you are talking about someone’s sister, someone’s daughter, someone’s mother, one day hopefully...   Tim: Yeah. Marisol: And it was....you know, it was haunting because you go, “Ok, that is the mindset that allows this to occur.” That is the mindset - partyyy, woohoo, or whatever it is. It was haunting; it stayed with me. Tim: And can you tell us...what was the role you were playing? You were awesome, by the way, and it was obviously natural. You know, it’s funny... People think like, you know, like undercover operators... Just because you are a cop, you think you are going to be good in undercover work. It is not true. And when I was in the law enforcement, it was difficult to find good undercover operators because, again, it is not inherent to a police officer. It is more an actor or actresses, and that is where you were being able to pull it up. So, tell us what role you played in that?   Marisol: Yeah. So, I was playing the person who sets up the sex parties basically, who sets up the situation for men to come and abuse these girls. You know, it was very, very like spur of the moment. I think we had, what, half an hour to plan it or something. Tim: Yeah. Marisol: You know, when I saw that the only way I am going to pull this off with this guy is if I pretend to be one of those people that just don’t care. Mark: What did you do? Give me some lines. Marisol: You know, I have... I did things like, “Hey, yeah, you know, it’s all good.” Tim: Yeah, she was sitting like really sexy, like just loosey-goosey. It was perfect. And the guy was like watching her more than anything else, and he understands that she will be able to get girls for us, better than we can get them on our own. Marisol: One of the facts that I was surprised to learn about is that some of the traffickers are girls - they are. And they lower young girls just as men do. Tim: Even better. Mark: Let’s say you get a big role as a trafficker on a film coming out in a couple of years. What do you do to prepare? Marisol: It is interesting because prior to coming into this world, you know that there are evil people out there, but you think, you know, you just don’t have that much reality. And then playing the trafficker or playing someone like this...now I’ve started to play some sort of, you know, one or two bad guys here and there, and I am like, “Oh no, no, no, it is 100% evil with no remorse and no feeling and no nothing.” That is how you would have to be to do this. You have to be one of those people, that ‘there is nothing left’. Tim: You are looking into their eyes when you see these people - I mean there is no soul. I mean, it is like past feeling. It is just unbelievable. Like the woman we have talked about, the trafficker, the beauty queen, who was going and luring these girls at 9, 10 years old, telling them that she will teach them to be famous. She is famous, she is also in music videos, and the families were sending their kids with her. And she is going and selling them to us who she believed were men coming down to violate. And Marisol, you talked about this guy we met and you played your undercover role... I mean, I am literally sitting here, we are late for the podcast, I have twenty dudes sitting here, and they look just like that guy. I mean, I have a couple - I am not kidding you - I have a couple right now who are coming together to abuse who they believe to be a 13, a 12-year-old and a 9-year-old. And they are all excited - they tell me what they are going to do and they both want to do it together. They will be arrested next week when they show up. Marisol: It sound like how can you not do everything you possibly can, and, like, why aren’t there writings on the streets, why aren't we talking about this? It should be on the tip of everyone’s tongue. And I believe that if we did, it really would end it fast.   Tim: Yes. And the problem is this concept that people think, "Well, I have heard of it, but law enforcement is taking care of it. The government can take care of it." And not to slam the government, but it is too big of a problem. There are 30 million plus slaves, depending on what numbers you look at, 2 million at least or more, probably, kids in the sex slave industry. If people knew… And it reminds me of the slavery in the 19th century where it was the same thing. They were not talking about it. It was just like people knew what was happening, but: "Oh, the government will take care of that." It wasn’t until people learned through, like, abolitionists like Frederick Douglass, Harriet Tubman, and Harriet Beecher Stowe who wrote "Uncle Tom’s Cabin." It wasn’t until the people rose up and it got so loud that the government said, “Oh crap, we better do more, we better do something.” And then you start to stop it. We can do it, we can stop it! Marisol: And it comes down to people demanding that the government do something about it. These are just demands that it will end, and it will end it. But you need multitudes and multitudes of people demanding, showing more, and educating others to really put an end to this. But it can be done. I believe you, 100% it can be done. Mark: I have a question, Marisol. In your dealings with trafficking, who were the good guys? Why don’t we just start shouting out people that are amazing? You may have worked with them directly or not, you have known them or are friends of yours. Marisol: Yeah, ok! Well, first of all, Tim, Tim Ballard, whom I met at Osborne - for sure, 100% top of the list. Tim: Thank you, you are so nice. Marisol: What they do is incredible. And I have mentioned it before, but it is when you first learn about this, you are, “Let’s go get the kids. Can we just go and just get the kids?” And that is what they do. Mark: Yes. Marisol: And I mean that is vital. There is, obviously, a lot more they are doing. There are so many people doing this particular fight. There is Kim Biddle, from an organization called Saving Innocence in Los Angeles, that has dedicated her life. She is this beautiful, brilliant, brilliant girl, gorgeous, and she has dedicated her entire life to saving girls from trafficking and then rehabilitating them and seeing it through, like seeing it all the way through - not put them in a home and walk away, but seeing all the way through until the girl graduate from the home, goes to college and has her entire life back. She is dedicated. Mark: More influencers... Anyone in your world, acting world? Who are the good guys in trafficking? Marisol: There was this one movement that Sean Penn and other celebs got involved in and it was quick, but it really made a difference. It was "Real Men Don't Buy Girls." I don’t know if you remember that, but it was a whole Twitter and hashtag thing, and they got giant celebs to do this. And I thought it was really effective because people look up to actors, musicians, incredible artists as opinion leaders. For these guys to stand up there and say real men don’t buy girls... I thought it setted up a little bit which was really, really good to set a precedent of like, "Hey, who are we looking at that really does this?" and maybe, maybe make someone think twice about it. There needs to be more. I mean, just to be honest, we need more shows focusing on it. We need more episodes of crime shows focusing on it and really telling the stories. On "Law and Order: SVU," they have done a fairly good job on that because that is their ‘Sexual Victims Unit’ - that is the entire title of the show - but I believe we need more.  And recently - I don’t know if you saw "Room," but "Room" did a really good job of taking you through a girl’s experience, what it would be like to be trapped and under the control of someone else who is monitoring your every single move. I don’t know if you know the story, but she was trapped for seven years and had a baby by the trafficker and eventually escaped. And this particular story in this movie did such a good job. But it is based on so many cases of girls being trapped in the exact same way, having children from their traffickers, all of it… And it really... I thought they painted a really great picture of what it is like for the victim, and they do sort of wake up, like, “Wait, this exists. This happened.”       Mark: Are there certain writers or studios or groups that do a better job of talking about trafficking, and are they getting the ratings when they do it? Marisol: That is a really good question. There are definitely episodes that focus on it, but not anyone where I can, “Oh yeah, this particular writer," or, "Fox is dedicating an entire series to this,” or anything like that. It is still not there. And, like anything right now, it is just an episode or two that would be dedicated to it rather than an entire show. Is that make sense? But when they do air, they make just as equal ratings as they would any other crime, because it usually goes on crime shows. What I would like to see is that at the end of those things, "To find out more, go to www..." or statistics. Mark: Yes. Marisol: Or, like, “Hey, this is actually based on a real case,” to get the audience going, “I had no idea.” Because anything that is based on real life events will always get more interest. Mark: Do you feel like we speak about trafficking correctly? In general, how it is messaged? How should it be messaged in your opinion, if you were PR for the movement? Marisol: If I was PR for the movement, I would call it slavery. I would call it modern-day slavery and I would make sure that it was on the forefront of everything. And I would really, really, really validate the people who rescue the kids - not only OUR, but also police officers, FBI agents, sheriffs...because when I would tell people, they would go, “Why isn’t the police doing anything about it?” I am like, “Because the police is the same people who have to respond to a burglary, to a murder, to a cat caught up in the tree, to all of it.”     Mark: Yeah. Marisol: And I think if we started validating more and more the officers and sheriffs and agents that are focusing on this, and on getting results, freeing girls, and, most importantly, putting the traffickers away... I think the more validation you give that, or anything, the more of that we will get. Mark: Yeah. Marisol: You know, there is a fascination with murder. You know, there are a thousand TV shows about murder, about this, and I have been in all of them, so I do know. And I think we need to shift our focus, because, for one, I think you get whatever you validate. So, if you validate that, you are going to get more of it. We can use that to our advantage and validate those guys that are doing this, and not only getting the girls, but arresting those traffickers and making sure it sticks. Because it is not easy. And I know this from law enforcement, I know this from meeting with different legislators, and all of that. It is that trafficking is not an easy thing to prosecute.   Mark: It is not. Marisol: It is crazy to me, and I have certain ideas that I am working with to make it a lot easier and what I think could be done. But we will get to that whenever you are at that point of the program.   Mark: Well no, if you have certain ideas, let those out. Marisol: What is hard, at least in this country, is you have to get a victim to testify against her trafficker and the johns just walk free: "Well, she approached me," or, "I don’t know… answered an ad," blah blah blah… There is an existing law in the book called statutory rape that doesn’t matter if the girl was consensual or not. It doesn’t matter at all. So if you would start prosecuting johns and traffickers with statutory rape, you don’t have to get the girl to go through a whole testimony, and how he forced her, anything. Is she under the age of 17 or not? Tim: Yeah. Marisol: That... It is done. And when you start prosecuting johns and traffickers with rape, that is a different story now. Tim: Yeah. Marisol: And charging traffickers, by the way, with facilitation of late, where you are creating an environment, where a girl can be raped extremely easily, should be under the age of 17, it is done. Tim: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. In fact, a lot of our approaches to this is all about figuring out how to prosecute these cases without needing to put the victim on the stand. These victims are so... They have been so terrorized and so rewired. For their own well-being, you don’t want to put them on the stand to have them have to relive this. Also, they are not the best witnesses because they do not know who they are, they don’t know who to trust. And so, this solution of prosecuting different crimes to get around that is one approach. Something we are doing, especially in foreign countries, is we do these sting operations and film everything. And they don’t really do that, especially in developing nations. We film every part, from the day we meet the trafficker until we buy the kid. And so, at the end of the day, we just give a hard drive to the prosecutor, and it is like they are watching the movie, and they say, “We don’t need to put the kid on the stand because we have the true intent of this trafficker from seventeen different angles."    Marisol: Yeah. And you know, Tim, I have had these conversations with Lieutenant Mark Evans, who is head of all Los Angeles Vice and all of the trafficking in Los Angeles on the Valley side, and he is like, “We would do this if the DA/district attorney would prosecute.” So my next step is to meet with DA and go, “Would you prosecute them?” Because all depends on are they going to prosecute a case like that or not. The cops can actually charge them with anything that they want, so if we just start instilling the mindset... And also johns... Can we just take a moment about the customers? Because if, right now - and I don’t know if this is the case all over, but at least in California, you know - let’s say there is a 12-year-old-girl. Someone answered an ad on Backpage and went to a motel and had sex with the 12-year-old girl. And the guy is 55 years old - he gets a slap on the wrist and he goes to john school and he gets a misdemeanor and gets it wiped from his record, just like traffic school. I don’t understand - how that is ok? Tim: Yeah… It is not ok. Marisol: And if we started prosecuting the johns with statutory rape, and you advertise that, you are going to take away the demand a lot faster. Tim: Absolutely. Marisol: Because people don’t like to be charged with rape by any means. But right now, there is no consequence. Tim: Yeah. Marisol: There is no consequence. They walk free. It doesn’t matter. So there are mindsets and things that can be changed within our already existing laws, at least in this country, that I believe can go a long way towards making a difference. Continuing with the customers... And then, as the johns get arrested and as they do get prosecuted, or even just arrested, why are we protecting them? If you look on the back of a newspaper, or whatever, you can read like who got arrested for what, drunk driving, blah blah blah blah, but you can get arrested for this and it is not there.    Tim: Yeah. Marisol: So I think we should make the johns, particularly the rich white guys, pay for a billboard with their face and their mugshot in their neighborhood. Tim: The Queen of Sweden did this. She did this thing where if you got caught trying to have sex with a child, you got your face plastered on a billboard for everyone to see. And guess what happened? They stopped. They stopped soliciting kids in Sweden. They left. It is exactly what we need to do. Marisol: Exactly. Tim: Unfortunately, there are a lot of groups out here who would stop us from doing that. Trying, worrying about child rapist rights. Marisol: It is insane to me. And I think, I honestly believe, Tim, that if we could get the certain people in the government that are not scared of that, we could push something like that through. But what I have run into in meeting on the local state and federal level is you get guys that are just, "Oh no, we can’t do that. We will be fought,” and they don’t even try. But I believe if you would try hard enough, we could push something like that through just based on the statistics alone that you ended this.      Tim: These politicians answered to the people. If we would get the people loud enough, then they would say, "Of course, I will put their face on a billboard!" Because the people are demanding it, and that is where we need to start this, right. And that is what you are doing - that is what we are doing - is trying to create this grassroots movement - get so loud that these guys have to start doing stuff like this. History tells us that they will do it if we get loud enough. Mark: You mentioned politicians that are scared, and we don’t know what the exact story is on H.R.515 right now, which is before Congress, which is a big cause that we are going to take up.     Marisol: Which one is that? Mark: It is International Megan’s Law. Marisol: Oh great, yes! Ok. Mark: It will allow better communication between governments as bad guys travel abroad and come in. Right now, you cannot really get the information quickly enough to be actionable intelligence. Now, it went through the House, it went through the Senate, the Senate put some amendments on it, threw it back to the House - now it has a 15% passage rate. We have got a brilliant girl from the Podcast Congressional Web that just dissects bills. She is amazing.    Marisol: Who? Who does she work for, do you know? Mark: She is, totally... It is just her, totally independent. Marisol: Oh, ok. Mark: I don’t know what her politics are. I have listened to her shows - I have no idea, which is beautiful to me. She just dissects bills and sees what the [inaudible], sees what the hold-ups are in...what day, I think February 10th, we are going to be on with her and she is going to walk us through the bill and dissect who is holding it up and why. Marisol: Great! Mark: That is going to be awesome, right? Tim: This thing has been in Congress for over a year. It is ridiculous. Now, I actually testified with [inaudible] of Utah. We testified before the House on this bill because we were so frustrated, like, “Why can’t you pass this?!” It is a place that actually creates what is called the Angel Watch Center, a center where non-profit, private groups, government groups all get together and they talk about... They bring intel together, they start communicating better. And like Mark was saying, it is a notification program. If some French child rapist/former convict comes into our country, they are going to tell us, “Hey, this guys is flying into JFK. You might want to either deny him entry or watch him,” you know. We did the same for other countries. And again, what the issue is is their rights, the criminal’s right to travel without being notified. Mark: As we start to find more about H.R.515, maybe we engage you. Marisol: I am looking at it right now and I am kind of seeing where possibly the hold-up is because they are talking about any sex offender, and what I found in the past of certain other laws was that the definition of sex offender also includes, like, the person who was caught urinating in a park drunk, and he is labeled a sex offender for the rest of his life. And they are using those cases to cause an uproar to stop the whole thing, and say it is discriminatory against them. It is a bunch of bureaucratic nonsense, but that is where I am guessing - it is a guess - some of the hold-up is. One of the things that could go a long way is we will prosecute people for aiding and abetting. If they knew about a murder or they knew about a robbery that was taken place - so they were the driver but they didn’t do it... But we don’t do this with [inaudible].     Tim: It is a great point. It is true. Marisol: That would be another angle to getting the johns going, "Hey, you knew about this?” to get prostitution illegal in this country. So, did you really answer an ad for a massage? Do you know what I mean? And cast a wider net when you can actually prosecute people for aiding and abetting, for helping along, for being an accomplice...you know, looking in terms of existent laws that we already have in the books and prosecute differently to make a bigger dent. Tim: Agreed. We could make a list and shout it out to the world: "So, here are the things that need a change," and just be loud. Get the footage, get entertainment industry, get everyone to be so loud - Harriet Beecher Stowe thing, right - and then say, "What do we do?" "Here is the list, call your congressmen, get this stuff changed." Let’s do it, we are going to do it! Alright. Thanks so much, Marisol, we will have you back soon. Marisol: Alright, thanks guys! Thanks for having me! Tim: Alright, thank you! You know, the thing done is at least there are people out there because what this requires to save kids... You have to think outside the box. Just like to get rid of slavery in America, you had to think outside the box. And the model we are proposing is this private public partnership where we need our law enforcement. They have the badges, they have their prosecutors, they have the jail system, they have the judicial system, they can do this. But the problem is, this is such a unique problem and it is so enormous you have to be proactive and creative. Because these…the bad guys are being creative, and most law enforcement agencies don’t have the wherewithal to cover the homicides, the drug dealers and all the things they have been fighting for years and years and are trained to do. And now, you have trafficking problem on top of that. It is relatively new in terms of trying to react to it and most don’t have the tools they need. And that is why I left the government. Because I recognized all the gaps in the agencies that were fighting this problem. Again, not to slam them, but there are gaps everywhere. I got turned down by half the time when I put out request to do an operation. I got shut down because of X,Y, or Z. I always kind of understood the reasons, and I thought, “Alright, I don’t see the government fixing these gaps anytime soon, so I am going to leave - start my own organization that fills those gaps.” So I can go to any agency and say, “I know your problems because I had them, and I am going to solve them for you. We will do this, this, that and the other.” And the law enforcement agencies that want to save their kids are like, “Yes, come on in!” and we go and conquer together in the private-public model.  There are other law enforcement officers who... I will not name them right now, but have them in my head right now, and I am pissed off at them. So close-minded. Mark: What did they say? Give me a conversation. Tim: "You shouldn’t be doing this work. This is just for us. This is for a SWAT law enforcement." "I was a SWAT law enforcement for 12 years, I know how to do this." "Well, you cannot do it. I do not like you doing it." “The parents of the kids, who are being abused - they like that we are doing it. And where we are working, no one is doing it." So there is no answer, no answer to it. It just the partners we work with - they are not this way. If you are this way, we don’t work with you. But you would be surprised how many come back and say that they literally gave up the opportunity to rescue more kids because of pride, because of ego, because if you don’t have a badge, you shouldn’t be consulting or helping or anything like that. They can’t see outside the box. And it is sad because kids are getting hurt. I have had a conversation, actually - and I will not name the people, the agency - but I have literally had a conversation that went like this: "So you are telling me that you or your boss would rather let these kids continue to be raped than work with a private organization that you know together we can solve the problem?" And they said, "Yes." Mark: Wow. Tim: They said yes. It wasn’t them... The person I was talking to said, “I want to do it, but yes that is... My boss has made that deliberate decision.” They don’t want to admit that they need help or that they don’t have a handle on it. It is sick, it is sad. But you know, you have all sorts of people, and the good news is that there are a whole bunch of law enforcement agencies out there and prosecutors all over the place that put the kids above everything else, and that is who we work with. Yep, that is who we work with. And there are so many of them that we don’t run out of work. So, you know, I was talking to some folks at the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children who are a wonderful asset - all law enforcement works with them on so many areas to find kids, to find child pornographers - such an amazing organization. And I was talking to them about some of my frustrations and they said, "You know what? We did the same thing." They went through the same thing in the 80’s when they created the organization. There was a major - and I won’t name the agency - a major agency in the United States government that actually put out a policy/memo to their agents, to their law enforcement, saying, "You will not work with this new National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. You will not work with them. We got this. We don’t need help."    Mark: Farm Bureau. Tim: Yeah. That was a farm bureau. You got it.    Mark: Gosh…you know, the pressure was their heyday. Tim: Between that and the Bureau of Indian Affairs, yeah... They just went...yeah, unbelievable. But now, guess what? That agency has agents in their office that work inside the National Center. And so they say, "Just don’t worry. Buck up, little Timmy. Just work with those that will work with you. And success will be built upon success." And so we just have to put the negative aside and put the haters aside and we will work with those who see the vision. And they are the best ones anyway. They are the ones who are getting it done. Mark: Today, more than any other day, in talking to you, I feel momentum. I feel really pumped. And I don’t know what you had for lunch, or what your pre-workout was, but you are on fire, man. You are going to kill it. Tim: You didn’t feel that before? Mark: I did. Tim: You jerk. Mark: I didn’t... I felt like... Tim: ...how to take a compliment and just throw it in the trash. Mark: No, listen. I have felt like you are pushing a boulder uphill before, but now I feel like the boulder is moving. You know what I am saying? Like, we were getting people and we're shedding light on the problem, but really I just feel a new energy and not sure what it is. Tim: Well, what you are feeling probably is... I am in the middle of a case. I am back in my... Mark: You are... Tim: ...I am back in my agent days right now as an employee of this law enforcement agency. It is… I have been given authorization to get back and get my hands dirty back in this. And when I do that, I get very energized. Well, friends, sign us off, Timmy. Buck up, little Timmy. Tim: Thanks for joining us, guys. Looking forward to see you again on Slave Stealer Podcast.

Xiaohua: Hello and welcome to Round Table’s Word of The Week. Today we’re going to talk about things girls say versus what they actually mean. Mark: Now Xiaohua, before we start, do you mind talking about this subject. Xiaohua: I don’t mind at all. Mark: Are you just saying that. I have to interpret what you mean. Xiaohua: And by the end of the conversation, you’ll know whether I do mind or not. Mark: Yeah, ok, which one should we start with?Xiaohua: Let’s just say with one thing girls say all the time. Girls tend to say when they are dating ”I’m not very hungry right now, I have a very small appetite.”Mark: The translation though is “After you leave, I’m going to eat an entire cake.”Xiaohua: That unfortunately can be true, especially on the first or second date. Mark: I didn’t know that. Interesting. Xiaohua: It’s just to leave a very good first impression. Mark: I am learning actually quite a lot from this already. Now I know that sometimes at a date, a girlfriend will say “It’s fine. Oh no, Mark, don’t worry about it. It’s fine.” They say it in a certain way. I never know what that means. What does that one mean?Xiaohua: Now guys hear this line “I’m fine” are not in luck. Because what we actually mean is “I would appreciate if you could have a long conversation about this. No shorter than 45 minutes. If not, I would appreciate if you get out of here right now”.Mark: Yes, I know from sometimes, from the consequences that must have been what they meant. Why didn’t they just say it at the time?Xiaohua: As a girl who used to say this a lot, I’ve no idea. The thing is we want to appear strong, but deep down we are still very vulnerable and we want someone to comfort us and to make us feel better about something. Mark: Here’s another one I like off the list. Number three, when girls say “I just want a guy who makes me laugh.” What they actually mean is “I just want a hot guy with a great personality who is rich. And if he can make me laugh, that would be great.”Xiaohua: I think that is a little bit mean. Now I don’t know about guys, Mark. But I don’t think a lot of girls know exactly what they want. That’s why they say “I just want a guy who makes me laugh”. What about guys? Do you actually know what kind of girls you want, and you can describe it, and be straightforward about it?Mark: Yeah. Obviously it varies doesn’t it? One who is not needy and clingy; one who is independent. This is to describe personal sort of…I might as well use this radio show for something useful to get myself a date. Independent, interested in things in life, with an opinion about things that she’s willing to discuss. Oh, I think describing Zhou Heyang.Xiaohua: Oh okay! I’m gonna tell her. And I think our listeners are hearing it as well.Mark: Okay, so here’s another one that girls sometimes say when you are in the middle of talking to them about something. They’ll just say “it’s whatever”.Ok. So here’s another one that girls sometimes they say, when you’re in the middle of talking to them about something, they’ll just say: “It’s whatever!” As though they really don’t care. Apparently the translation, though, what they really mean is: “Actually it’s very significant and it’s affecting every single part of my day!”Xiaohua: Oh, I like this, and unfortunately I think it’s true for a lot of women. Again, we’re just generalizing here, right? But, I like the following two generalizations a lot. So when women say: “I like him, but…” what they actually mean is “I don’t like him at all”. It’s just a nice thing of putting things forward. Mark: It’s just so confusing, Xiaohua. Xiaohua: Because there’s a but, right? I like him, but…you know. But then there’re some aspects of him that I don’t like that much. And that actually means I don’t like him at all. Mark: But then, later they might say: “I don’t even like him anymore”, which translates, we’re told, as “I cry myself to sleep at night thinking about him”. Xiaohua: That is the worst. This sentence is usually heard when there’s a breakup. And the girl says “I don’t even like him anymore”, and it actually means “I’m extremely hung up on this guy”.Mark: Do you know, finally, after years of trying to work out what women mean, I think I’ve worked out a formula for understanding what women mean. Xiaohua: What? Mark: I think whatever women say, they’re not talking about the present moment. They’re talking about an ideal situation. So for example, if she says I don’t even like him anymore, that’s what would be perfect, but it’s not the truth at the moment. The fact is she thinks the complete opposite and she’s crazy about him. I think this formula works. For example, if she says I’m not hungry right now, this would be in an ideal situation. So what she actually means is I am hungry right now. I think we’ve cracked it. I think we could write a book about it. Xiaohua: You’ve cracked it. I’m not sure I’ll be on board. But let’s give it one more try on this sentence. When girls say “I don’t care where we go to eat”, what they actually mean, or we actually mean is, “I care a lot about where we go to eat and actually have some very specific preferences about where we need to go. And I just need you to start naming restaurants. And make sure to name the right one within five attempts.”Mark: So it’s absolutely right. The formula actually works with this. So if she says “I don’t care where we go to eat”, it means in an ideal situation I wouldn’t care where we go to eat. But it’s not ideal, therefore I do. So I wish I didn’t care where we go to eat, but I do. I’m beginning to see how to interpret what women say. And when women say: “You don’t know when my birthday is”, the translation of that is “you’re dead”. Xiaohua: That is true 100% in any circumstances. And that’s all we have for this week’s Word of the Week.