Podcast appearances and mentions of mark okay

Are you and your spouse on the same page when it comes to what retirement is going to look like? If not, it's time to talk. Listen to this episode where we'll explore why it's so important for couples to have detailed conversations about their finances and retirement futures. We'll cover exactly what you need to discuss, and how to handle any disagreements.   Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com   Disclaimer: Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is an SEC Registered Investment Advisor. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. The topics and information discussed during this podcast are not intended to provide tax or legal advice. Investments involve risk, and unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Be sure to first consult with a qualified financial advisor and/or tax professional before implementing any strategy discussed on this podcast. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Insurance products and services are offered and sold through individually licensed and appointed insurance agents.     Mark: Are you and your spouse on the same page when it comes to what retirement is going to look like? If not, it's time to talk. So check into this episode where we explore why it's important for couples to have detailed conversations about not only their finance, but their retirement futures and their dreams, this week on Retirement Planning, Redefined.   What's going on? Welcome into the podcast. Thanks for hanging out with John, Nick, and myself as we talk investing, finance and retirement. And we're going to go to couples therapy this week here on the podcast a little bit, or maybe we'll make it more manly, I guess, and call it a team sport.   However you want to look at it, you want to be on the same page with your spouse, with your loved one when it comes to retirement. I wanted to talk a little bit about that this week, guys, to see how many people generally are on the same page by the time they sit down with professionals like yourselves, financial professionals, or if it's happening a lot in real time, right in front of you. So we'll get into it this week.   What's going on, John? How are you bud?   John: Hey, I'm doing good. How are you?   Mark: Doing pretty good, hanging in there. Looking forward to chatting about this a little bit.   Nick, I hope you're well.   Nick: All good.   Mark: All good as usual. Well, that's very good.   Nick: Good start to the season for the bills, so I'm happy.   Mark: All right, well there you go.   Nick: It's early. It's early, but...   Mark: My lions, my lions are all right for right now. We'll see. I don't have a lot of hope. 40 years doesn't bode well when you have one good season in 40 years, but we'll see.   Nick: I get it, [inaudible 00:01:33].   Mark: All right, so let's dive into this couple stuff here. Why is it important for couples to work together on their retirement plan? I mean, you come in, somebody sits down for the first time with you guys for a consultation, and they're just not even remotely on the same page. That's got to be a bit more problematic, yeah?   Nick: Yeah. Not being remotely on the same page is tricky. I would almost say we probably, at least for John and I, we probably don't run into it too much where they're completely on separate pages.   Mark: Well, that's good.   Nick: I would say that there tend to be different ways that they think about money and kind of communicate about money. To be honest, that's one of the reasons that I would say that John and I like working together as a team with clients is because oftentimes one of us will kind of pick up more on the vibe that one of the people in the relationship is on, and then vice versa the other way around.   And so I'd say it's pretty rare that people in a couple tend to think about finances the same way. Even though they might end up having similar goals on the backside, they kind of attack it a little bit differently. And really it's, I think we joke sometimes, I think at this point we're 80% therapist, 20% financial advisors.   Mark: Right.   Nick: And really it's just trying to get people closer to the same page, and realizing that a lot of the things that they're talking about are pretty similar and they're just going about different ways to attack that.   Mark: Well, John, to expand on that, when somebody sits down for the first time, do you guys, if they haven't really discussed some of those big issues, is it important that they maybe try to knock some of that out before they come in to see an advisor? Or does it not really matter as long as it's getting done?   John: Yeah, I don't think it really matters. I think sometimes they're not even really sure exactly what to be knocking out prior. So to delay meeting with someone just to try to figure out, "Hey, are we on the same page?", I don't think makes sense. I think what tends to happen in our meetings is we'll ask some questions that kind of get them thinking a little differently. Like, "Oh, I didn't think about that." And ultimately, I think what we do when we do our planning, they tend to have some things come out and then they tend to kind of understand where the other one's coming from and that kind of lines up.   Mark: Yeah. Well, I mean, I talk to advisors all across the country and I certainly hear stories often about people saying, one person will say something and the spouse will go, "Since when? I never heard of that."   Nick: It definitely happens sometimes for sure. I would say almost that tends to be more on the lifestyle side of things.   Mark: Okay, all right.   Nick: Versus almost purely financial.   Mark: Like "I want to go scuba diving in every major ocean or something." And the other one's like, "What?"   Nick: Yeah, when the husband pulls, "I want to drive across country in the RV" card, that's where I've seen a lot of the sideway looks where... My parents are a good example, it's like my dad doesn't like to drive to Publix, but then he said he wanted to drive-   Mark: Across the nation.   Nick: ... In an RV, because that's going to be more relaxing. And I remind him that a thousand miles is a lot worse than five. So there's things like that absolutely. How to spend that time, or even just the extra time together. I've almost seen it where it tends to be a little bit of a smoother process for couples when one person retires first, and maybe there's a year or two lag, where they kind of have a little bit of a staggering on spending an extra 50 hours a week together, which can be a little bit of a shock.   Mark: Sure, yeah, it's a totally different animal. Yeah.   Nick: Yeah, a totally different ballgame. So I would say from at least my experience with clients, it tends to be more in the lifestyle side of things. What I've seen most often with couples are it's rare that it's a 50/50 input on finances.   A lot of times I'll see it where one person might be a little bit more strategic on expenses, and then the other one might be a little bit more focused on the actual investments, things like that. But they end up being kind of having the same goal or outlook, but the lifestyle and how they're going to spend their time in retirement and how much they're willing to spend to do those sorts of things tends to be a little bit different.   Mark: All right, John, well let me throw this one your way. So my wife and I are not usually on the same page when it comes to certain different things in a relationship, like most couples. And when it comes to risk, we are completely different.   So how can couples navigate if they are in different places risk-wise? Because let's be honest, I mean the statistics are what they are. Typically, us fellas tend to want to take a little bit more risk, and a lot of times the ladies tend to want to play it a little safer. Not always, but that's kind of the average.   So how do you guys handle that and what's some advice there?   John: So we'll do risk tolerances for each client when that comes up. And we we'll find that someone, again, might be more aggressive than the other, so maybe their accounts are invested, maybe a moderate where someone else's, the spouse might be invested conservative. So that, having separate accounts makes that a little bit easier.   It becomes more difficult when it's the, a joint account. And what we'll do at that standpoint is we kind of go back to the plan. So a lot of the times it's what type of rate of return are we trying to achieve from the planning standpoint. We kind of have conversations, and we'll try to blend the two of them together.   I'd say for the most part, I don't want to speak for Nick, but he could jump in, have never really had this come up as an issue. It's kind of like, "Hey, this is how you want to do it. This is how this other person wants to do it." And for the most part, the spouses are okay with it as long as they're achieving their goals.   Mark: Interesting.   Nick: For the clients that tend to be, for the ones that have a little bit more of that risk appetite, we found through conversation that they have the risk appetite when things are good.   Mark: Sure. Everybody likes it when it's up, right?   Nick: Yeah, for sure. And not necessarily when things are bad. And so we're big fans of almost having, for lack of a better term, like a petty cash drawer or just kind of a smaller investment account that will carve out. So when there are clients that want to have that higher risk appetite, want to take opportunities to really kind of get some big upside.   Mark: So that's your speculative casino type money, right?   Nick: Yep.   Mark: If you will.   Nick: Yup, yup, exactly. And really too, because I would say the majority of our clients are pretty close to retirement or in retirement, they tend to, at least in our experience, be a little bit over that phase with any sort of larger amounts of money. Oftentimes they come to us and they're like, "All right, we had our fun and we're ready to be a little bit more in line on the risk side of things with the investment decisions that we're making." And oftentimes when we have that conversation of, "Hey, if you get an itch, let's have this off to the side and it'll help you make better decisions with the rest of the money." That tends to be kind of a winner for everybody.   John: No, I was going to say, yeah, that's kind of what we reference sometimes as a cave, this is kind of your play account where you want to buy some individual stocks and things like that, where the fluctuation won't really make a big impact overall on your plan. So as Nick mentioned, that kind of satisfies some of the very aggressive clients.   Mark: Okay. Well, so you mentioned the fact a second ago that a lot of your clients tend to be nearing or into retirement, and with a different demographic comes different feelings and mindsets about money.   So with that in mind, we tend to find that, which is really weird if you think about it this way, a lot of times you tend to find that in couples, going through the life, building of the life, raising the children, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, typically the wife tends to budget the money, handle the money, so on and so forth. She's doing all that stuff in the house. But when it comes to retirement, it tends to seem like us guys tend to take the lead there.   Is it okay for one person to handle all the financial matters? Or do you guys really prefer that both people have a good understanding, even if it's not your bag, do you still prefer them to have a general, I don't know, 10,000 foot view of what's going on?   Nick: Yes. I would say too, more and more that, again, from our experience, and maybe it's our clientele where you've got a lot of households that are both people work, both have retirement accounts, and although they may make some differences from the perspective of risk in their portfolios and stuff like that, it tends to be a collaborative effort. Again, I would say we have, anytime we do planning, we have clients fill out an expense worksheet. It's rare that they both fill it out. It's usually one of the two that are filling out the expense worksheet.   And so it does tend to get kind of broken up a little bit from who focuses on what. But it's definitely important that they're both on the same page and have a good grasp and an understanding. And I would say too is the easiest example of that, and the people that work with us kind of know this is there's one report that we go over with clients, it's like a cashflow. It's in detail, wall of numbers, lots of columns, can be kind of intense. And then there's an area called the decision center, which takes all those columns and it puts it into kind of a graph format and it's more interactive.   And I think that's kind of almost the best illustration of the different sides of the brain where one person in the couple sometimes likes the details and likes the column report and they like to, because they can go in on their client side of the portal and go through that and re-review it. And the other one is, "Hey, let's zoom out. Give me the broader picture. Are we good? Are we not good? Give me an idea of a couple of decisions that we need to make moving forward and let's go from there."   Mark: And there's no right or wrong to either one, it's just what is your personal appetite? But I think neither, like if both of you don't have a good understanding, John, that's a recipe for trouble later on too.   John: Yeah, no, I'd agree with that. It's important for both to at least have an idea of what's happening and working as a team, whether one takes a lead and one takes a backseat, we encourage everyone to have a general understanding. Because this past year has been interesting where I've had some clients have some health issues, pass away. And you got to make sure that both pistons are aware of what's happening because you don't want that situation where it's like, "Hey, I don't know where anything is. What do I do?" So [inaudible 00:11:43].   Mark: That's exactly the point, right? Yeah, that's the worst case scenario. And it often, it happens more times than people realize. So you both want to have a decent understanding, even if it's not your thing. And again, no gender roles there. It tends to be the case, but I mean, my wife is way smarter than I am, and she actually deals with, she's very analytical and deals with money and numbers all the time for work. And it's one of those things where when it comes to our retirement, she's like, "I don't want to deal with it. So you deal with it."   And it could just be as simple as, "I deal with numbers all the time, I don't want to deal with it yet another way." So no matter what it is, you find a way to make it work, but not having a decent understanding of what you have, and why you have it and who to turn to in the event of a catastrophe, is a recipe for disaster. So obviously if you're working with a financial professional and a team like the guys at PFG Private Wealth, then at least you also have that resource to turn to when something does happen like John just mentioned.   So one final question here, I'll let you both kind of jump in and chime in a little bit here. What final piece of advice would you give to couples who are maybe just beginning their retirement planning journey, when it comes to making sure that they both are feeling comfortable?   Nick: I think it depends on what phase they are in life, but in general, I think it's hard to screw it up long-term, if you're saving money. So even if you are very conservatively saving the money and you're not getting much return on your money, that kind of instills an ingrained habit of saving money and being used to living on the rest. That will lead you to better habits and better outcomes.   You can always take the next step in, whether it's working with an advisor, whether it's doing research by yourself and then making better and smarter decisions on how you invest that money that you saved. That tends to be kind of the easier part. But the behavior of saving that money first and then going from there, is the number one thing, I think that's important.   Mark: Okay. That's his advice there. What do you about you, John, what do you think?   John: Yeah, it's really similar. You can never go wrong saving. And it's really just kind of the words that just get started. Just get started saving, just get started planning, get started with any of it. Whether you have kids, you want to make sure that estate documents are in place, insurances are in place.   So depending on what phase, it's just a matter of getting started with the overall planning, and saving is definitely where you want to be the forefront. Because like Nick said, you can't go wrong. You're never going to be mad looking back saying, "Man, I saved way too much for retirement."   Mark: Right, exactly. Taking the forward steps and doing something to quote the rush song, right? If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. So don't make that choice to do nothing. Do something for yourself and your future self and get started today. Make sure that you are planning for retirement and having conversations with your loved ones so that you guys are on the same page.   And of course, as always, if you need some help, make sure that you get onto the calendar with qualified professionals like the team at PFG Private Wealth. You can find them online at pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com to get yourself some time on the calendar to sit down with John and Nick and get started today.   This has been Retirement Planning, Redefined. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on whatever major podcasting platform app you like to use. They're on all of them. So you can just type in Retirement Planning, Redefined in the search box, or just go to pfgprivatewealth.com.   We'll sign off for this week. For John and Nick, I'm your host Mark, and we'll catch you next time.

In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, I chat with Mark Wade, founder and president of Echelon Virtual Family Office. Mark shares insights into virtual family office services, tailored for those with substantial wealth not needing a standalone family office. We also discuss premium-financed life insurance structures and how they serve individuals with several million dollars in assets. Mark outlines the origins of virtual family offices, tracing back to the Rockefellers. We learn they now cater to those with $10 million or more in assets. Additionally, Mark describes optimizing value when selling a business through pre-sale coordination, marketing strategy, and deploying post-liquidity event assets. We conclude by examining indexed universal life insurance advantages and investing in index funds, real estate, and small businesses. Overall, this informative episode underscores wealth management options and leveraging life insurance through Mark's insights   SHOW HIGHLIGHTS In this episode I chat with Mark Wade, the founder and president of Echelon Virtual Family Office, How He provides services to wealthy individuals who need family office services but do not justify having a standalone family office. Mark elaborates on the concept of a virtual family office, highlighting that it originated with the Rockefellers. He explains that these services are typically available to those with a net worth of $10 million or more. We discuss the process of leveraging life insurance through premium financing, with Mark emphasizing that the coordination of various financial professionals and providers is key to unlocking a business's value. Mark and I delve into the process of pre-sale value creation, marketing to potential buyers, and the deployment of assets after a liquidity event. We explore the struggle of successful business owners in transitioning from their roles after a liquidity event, and the satisfaction derived from making a difference in people's lives. We discuss the concept of premium financed life insurance and how Etch-A-Lan uses it strategically. Mark describes the process of bank financing with collateral and contribution, explaining how clients can sign a personal loan and provide collateral. We discuss how despite a higher interest rate environment, the strategy of bank financing remains potent due to policy flexibility. Mark and I examine the benefits of indexed universal life insurance and the advantages of investing in index funds, rental real estate, and small business ownership. Finally, we celebrate the power of self-confidence and the wisdom gleaned from financial experiences. LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Echelon Wealth Strategies GUEST Mark WadeAbout Mark TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) David: Hi, this is David Spray, and welcome to another episode of the ICDisc Show. My guest today is Mark Wade, the president and founder of Etch-A-Lan Virtual Family Office. They work with families who have a need for family office services but whose net worth does not justify having a standalone family office, so they serve these families and add a lot of value. We had a great interview talking about some of the things they do to add value, and then we also talked about an interesting structure that they are familiar with around leveraging life insurance through premium financing in what he describes as a quote modern structure. I have some familiarity with premium finance life insurance but Mark's approach is really interesting. We also talked about things he wish he had known when he was younger and advice he would have given himself. So this is a great episode for really anybody who has accumulated several million dollars of wealth or more who's interested in learning more about the options available to them to manage their wealth. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did. Good morning, mark. Welcome to the podcast. Good morning. How are you today? I am great. So where are you calling in from today? What part of the world are you in? Mark: Today we're calling in from sunny Venice, florida, on the Gulf Coast. David: Venice. Okay, what's the nearest large city that Venice is near or larger? Mark:20 miles south of Sarasota Okay. David: Excellent. I love that. That's the largest city. I love that part of Florida. So I'm kind of a sequential learner. I like to kind of start in the beginning. Are you a native Floridian or are you from somewhere else? Mark: I was born and raised in Newark, new Jersey, and lived my childhood in New Jersey and, as I, when I graduated college. Since then I've been all over the country, coast to coast. I've spent part of my corporate career, my earlier corporate career, west of the Mississippi, headquartered out of Florida where, I'm sorry, out of California, where I ran west of Mississippi for one of the major brokerage firms, and then, when I went independent in 1999, relocated back to the East Coast again. So I'm currently a Florida resident. David: Awesome. Yeah, so I'm a Texan and it's like Texas and Florida seem to be like kindred spirits. You know the similar philosophies on a lot of things, and with a fair amount of Gulf Coast Beach front. That's right. So talk to me about echelon virtual family office. What's the history? What made you start it? Who are you set up to serve? Tell me the story. Mark: Yeah, great. So echelon virtual family office really started in 19 as a state and succession planning firm. Okay, business owners have been our focus for many years, though we do serve some at this point quite a few C level corporate executives, upper level corporate executives and retirees from both the business world and the corporate world. So echelon virtual family office is an evolution of that original practice. And you know, as a virtual family office, most people have heard of the Rockefellers and they've heard of the Vanderbilt's and you know the Rockefellers got it right and unfortunately, the Vanderbilt's didn't, and they meaning the Rockefellers really came up with the concept of a virtual family office. You want me to just give a brief run down to what a family office does. Yeah, please do that for those that might not have heard of it or not that familiar with it. So the Rockefellers figured out years ago that instead of sourcing a variety of outside professionals, instead of going to outside attorneys and accountants and real estate people and mortgage people and bankers and so on and so forth, you know, john Rockefeller figured out that he could just go ahead and hire all those people inside, because he created enough wealth in order to do that. Nowadays, by the way to create your own family office. It makes sense when you have about 250 million dollars of net worth, okay, so below that, a family might employ the services of a multi-family office, which is where a variety of people, a multitude of people, who typically have about 50 million and larger, would use the same services of a family office. That is a for-profit family office. So some of the people from the private family office one day said, well, we could do this and earn a living at it as a standalone company. So they created a multi-family office and for the last 10 years, myself and a mastermind group that I belong to there's about 220 of us now we started working on this concept of bringing family office services. So it's really all of those core services that everybody knows accounting, legal real estate, banking, mortgage, investment, so on and so forth. Everyone's familiar with those. But some of the more esoteric ones are some of the more more specialized ones, like personal security, trademark law, international banking. So some of the more sophisticated family services not end to include some of the tax driven ones, but you know specific types of tax strategy. You know we are able now to source those on behalf of our clients and provide a network of national experts that are part of our virtual family office and bring those down to clients. We say typically a business owner or or a retired executive or an existing corporate. We are able to bring that down to where it really starts to make sense for individuals at about the $10 million level. Okay, we figure at about a $10 million level we can really start driving some what we call true and meaningful value to the bottom line. We can start making a huge difference for those families in a variety of different ways and to provide some economies of scale to it, because you know when they're, when these specialists are part of our virtual family office, they're used to deal flow from us and so they give our clients some consideration. So that's the idea from 250 million to 50. Okay, pretty much the same types of services that were offered to the people that 250. David: Okay, no, thank you for that. That makes sense, and so it sounds like you just identified a need in the market in that 10 to $50 million network range where the this virtual family office made more sense for people there who was more attractive than a multifamily office structure. Is that about right? Mark: Yeah, clearly, once, once you. So I should tell you we have clients today that are 5 million because they have specific needs that we can address expeditiously and cost effectively. So we have clients that are smaller than 10 million. Typically your clients are 10 million net worth and larger and we have them all the way up to 165 million. So but you kind of write the way you described it we're able to bring under a family or an individual with with less than 50 million. We're able to bring them those family office services that only you know the private family offices used to be able to source in the past. David: Okay, so I love stories, so could you give us, like, think of the and obviously you don't need to share the name of a client, but, you know, think of a client where your service really a difference. Can you just one come to mind? You can kind of give a little bit of the background, what their pain point was, how you were able to make a substantial improvement in their situation. Mark: Yeah, so you know, but you know so it's relevant to a wider swath of people, instead of talking about the exceptional ones I won't do that I'm going to talk about. I'm going to talk about what we commonly see. Okay, that sounds good Because it may be more relevant to, like I said, to water swath of people, and so I cannot remember the last time we had somebody show up if they have ever shown up and they have had all their financial work done, all their legal work done, coordinate and I'm talking about their personal and have coordinated that successfully with their business or corporate world, because it's the marriage of the personal and business, financial and legal affairs. That's where the real, that's where the real magic happens, right, okay? And when you think about it, when was the last time, dave, when was the last time somebody sat down and said to you, dave, I just exited a meeting with my accountant and my attorney and my banker and my pension plan manager and our insurance specialist and we just sat down and talk for hours about me. It just doesn't happen. And so it's the coordination and the direction of all that effort from those various providers that's what drives, I like we say, the true and meaningful value for our clients. So I'm going to you know, I'm going to say that in the areas of wanting to unlock the value, I'm going to say that for a, if they're a business owner wanting to unlock the value, the equity they've created in their firm, whether it's for further investment, for personal investment or because they're looking to succeed, they're looking to transfer the ownership, they're looking to take a strategic sale to an outside buyer, whether it's a internal sale to employees or a succession to family members. You know there's a tremendous amount of value that's derived from that process. Okay, so I'm going to say that in the pre sale, value creation and unlocking that value, and then to the in the process, marketing of an entity to the alright. So now I've collected this. Let's just put a number on a 1020 million dollars or whatever the number is. I've gotten my liquidity event. Now what do I do? And it's not just, it's not just the deployment of the assets, it's really now, what do I do? I mean, I can't play golf every day. I can't go around the world vacation all year long every year. What do I do? It's the next step is what's their next, what's the next project for them, because oftentimes that's what it is. Successful business owners find it extremely difficult to just turn off the computer and walk away. David: Sure sure, of course, of course. Okay, well, thank you. Well, that is helpful. What? What do you find the most satisfying about you all with the company? Mark: That's a great question, Wow. Well, you know, Dave, this is the only thing I've done for 44 years. Over 44 years. I've only ever done what I do today. Okay, and as a lot of your associates probably are able to say, we don't do this anymore because we have to do it for the money. We do it for a lot of other reasons too, and part of which is it's kind of in our being and who we are and it's how we self fulfill, right, and a lot of the drive behind doing what I do today is making a difference. That sounds kind of corny, but it really does. After 44 years of doing tax strategy and financial advising and business exit strategy and retirement planning and all the different planning subspecialties that fall into that. We don't do it just for the money, Don't get me wrong. It's nice to be paid well, but it's the impact that we have and the lives that we affect, oftentimes for people we will never meet, because they're people in the future. They're the heirs of people that we'll never meet and lots of times it's the heirs of the clients. They'll never meet them either. So knowing that we have had that kind of impact that's, an intergenerational impact is 100%. What does it for me nowadays? And it's solving oftentimes these complex and comprehensive problems that you really have to have a lot of time in the barrel and a lot of experience and a really deep bench of people to rely on. Those complex and uncomplicated problems oftentimes are the ones that make or break a family's future. So helping to walk clients through that process it's painting a renaissance picture from the standpoint of you have an idea what it's going to end like. You have an idea of where you're going. But the interrelational family dynamics take you left and right and sometimes it backs you up and sometimes it moves you forward. But going through that process it's so rewarding to see the impact you've had on a family. And oftentimes it's problems that some families don't deal with and oftentimes it's issues that a lot of families deal with. Sometimes it's we have to deal with substance abuse issues and helping our clients get the right help there. I mean we've had opportunities where well, just recently this Afghan war, the withdrawal out of Afghanistan we had a corporate client where we shipped a couple million dollars overseas and a couple of talented and rough guys parachuted into Afghanistan to pick up this guy's daughter who was doing a medical mission for the local population somewhere in the hills and this whole thing kind of exploded quicker than they can expect and a couple of guys wanting to rescue this woman from Afghanistan. Right down to helping our clients prepare their children to accept this kind of responsibility themselves in the future. Wealth comes with its own issues. Many of our clients are self-made people. Many of our clients created their wealth or increased family wealth, and so now how do you prepare your children and grandchildren to carry that on? So there's just a variety of things that we get involved with by introducing our clients to the appropriate specialists in those areas. Like I said, we have over 60 in our network now. David: Okay, well, thank you for that color. I'd like to drill down into a subject that I know a little bit about, but your firm seems to have a little different approach to that. I would just like to talk about that's premium financed life insurance. So can you start by, for listeners that aren't familiar with it, what it is and kind of what the purpose of it is, and then kind of get into the strategy that you all take. That's maybe a little different than some others. Mark: Yeah. So you know, people think about life insurance and they say, oh, I don't like life insurance or I don't believe in life insurance. And we get it because, let's face it, the only people that really want to want life insurance are oftentimes the ones who can't have it. Right. Right, they find themselves in a position and they say, oh man, I really should have life insurance because this is a problem. Now, for whatever their reason health or otherwise they don't qualify for it anymore. But in all other cases that I can think of, you know, life insurance is just a tool. Right, it's just another tool. Keeps on mark what's the good life insurance versus the bad life insurance? And we say, well, oftentimes it's not a matter of what's good life insurance or bad life insurance, it's policy. Design is oftentimes a critical factor, but more often than not, if we just say life insurance is a tool, you know it comes down to the mechanic Okay, Okay, do you use the life insurance in the proper way or what it was intended, and do you design the policy correctly, meaning the agent and the tax specialist. Do you design the policy correctly? Do you own it correctly? Do you fund it correctly? And then, later on, do you access the money correctly. So let's go back to that third one, the funding element. If I know that it's a tool and life insurance does many things, it's kind of like a Swiss army knife. What do we need for it to do today? Well, today we need a death benefit or, you know, maybe we're going to need it for a. You know? You know, some of the largest owners of life insurance are their Fortune 500 companies and banking institutions. You know banking institutions and Fortune 500 companies. They own this stuff because it's part of what they call their tier one capital. And in the banking world, the bank's tier one capital is that money that has to be the safest and the most protected. And so what do banks use for that? Oftentimes they use life insurance. They use, boldly, bank owned life insurance. Okay, in the corporate world, they use Koli corporate owned life insurance. So if we know that it's just a tool and we know that how you pay for it is very important and it circles back to your premium financing, you know what are the ways you can do it? You can pay for your life insurance out of assets, you can pay for your life insurance through a corporation and those where that's applicable and that becomes less and less effective nowadays, but nevertheless, there were still great opportunities to do that, or you can have somebody else make the premium payments for you, and that's where premium finance, life insurance, comes in, and oftentimes it involves it involves having arrangement with a banking institution, and the banks love this because, from their perspective, financing your life insurance policy is a guaranteed investment. Yeah, and it's where the obvious reason why none of us is leaving here without passing away Right, you know, at some point we're all going to pass away, so it's a guaranteed investment for them. So banks are typically very interested in financing these life insurance policies. Banks have gotten significantly intelligent. They look for certain types of policies that do certain things with the right provisions and the right protections for them and own the proper way. So premium finance there's a lot of different types of premium finance out there and there have been different scenarios for years. They come and go as the markets shift and the wind shift, along with interest rates and so forth. But one of these purposes that we see life insurance our clients really warming up to the concept of premium finance nowadays is in the wealth creation process. So we know life insurance provides a death benefit, and oftentimes you can get the bank to provide financing so you can buy more death benefit than you might be able to or might want to pay for, or on your own. Sure, but another more popular way nowadays well, maybe equally popular, but certainly has risen in popularity is in the wealth creation process, whereby you can have a bank, add additional premium dollars to your premium dollars and those monies accumulate inside that policy for you on a tax deferred basis. Right, because insurance companies they get treated especially from all other corporations in the world, so that money multiplies inside the policy for the benefit of the owner and eventually the beneficiaries at some day. But as those policy values grow and grow, because part of it's your money and a much larger part is the bank's money in there, you get to earn money on the bank's money and it's really an arbitrage between interest rates, right, it's how much is the bank charging me to borrow the money versus how much can I earn on that money. And so we've been, you know we've been really fortunate. You know, over the last two decades I have tremendous positive arbitrage on the on those premium dollars and our clients have enjoyed tremendous policy cash value increase, which then they have been able to borrow on the back end, which is one of the preferred ways to do it to borrow your own money out and pay yourself back, right, right so. So the various flavors of being able to borrow that money. Some financing scenarios where you sign a personal loan at the bank and you provide collateral and the bank can call you at any time and say, hey, you need to increase that collateral because markets have moved against you and we need more money to shore up our policy, cash value. And then there are those type of policies out there Now the newer designs. The financing scenario says hey, for the first five years you put up half and we'll put up half, so let's use a $50,000 premium. So for the first five years, david, you put up $25,000 a year and we, the bank, will put up $25,000 a year and at the end of five years your commitment is done. You don't have to put any more money into this policy. But for the next five years so from years six to 10, we'll put in the $50,000 on your behalf. We'll add that additional premium dollars on your behalf. So it works out typically between where the bank puts in about just approximate numbers. It depends on age and health. Well, the bank might put in 70% of the premium dollars, you might put in 30. And then at the end of 15 years, so a five year period, a five year. So the first five year period you share in depositing premiums. The second five years the bank puts in the premium dollars, and then the third five years that money just sits there and marinate and percolates and hopefully continues to grow like it has over the last couple of decades. And then at the end of 15 years the bank will say, okay, we're going to take our premium dollars back now with the interest that has accrued. You get everything else left in the policy. So that is an extremely popular scenario that has worked incredibly well for our clients and it's amazing the wealth that can be accumulated inside these policies to access later on, either through withdrawal while the client's alive or typically what's more effective is a policy loan while the client's alive, a loan that the client presumably will never pay back, and when the client passes away it just comes out of the death benefit. So here's the beauty. The beauty is these more, these newer, more effective designs. The client signs no loan for the bank's premium contribution. The client puts up no collateral for the bank's premium contribution. The policy itself is all the bank needs, and the way of collateral Got you. The bank has what's called a collateral assignment against it. Well, it's all sees, all yours. David: Yep, and then so would this be like a 10 pay policy, like there's contractually 10 years of payments. Is that typically what it is, or is that payment duration dependent on market forces? What's? Mark:the tip that 10 year structure is the typical structure. The only reason why it would be different is if the client wanted it to be different. Really couldn't be shorter. David: Because of the modified endowment contract. Mark: Yeah, well said, you can only get so much cash into those things in a short period of time. So that's the whole. Yes, to front load the deposits as quickly as you can. Well, not violating any tax code. Tamar defer, so yeah, so that's exactly right. So it must be 10 years. You could fund it in five years, but then you wouldn't get the other five years of the bank's contribution Exactly Right and you'd likely hit the Mech parameters if you just funded it for five years, right? It's possible. Yeah, it depends on depending on health and age. Yeah, and because these policies are flexible, you can always adjust the death benefit to make it work. Yeah, but the real magic there is in the bank's share of contribution to that policy. Yeah, five years you share. You put money in. The bank puts money in the second five years only. The bank puts money in the third five years. It just continues to grow and at the end of 15 years the bank takes their money out and it's all yours. There's sums that have been accumulated in these policies has been astronomical, really. It's a very effective way to do it without having to commit you know collateral or sign a bank loan. Yeah, the bank uses the policy as the entire collateral required. David: Yeah, no, it's really an interesting approach. You'd mentioned how effective that had been the last 20 years because of that positive arbitrage between interest rates and earnings. So what are the thinking? How's that? Mark: going to change. David: Now that we're in a higher interest rate environment and, at least for the time being, a lower earnings environment, it seems like that arbitrage has flipped the other way. How does that still work then, in that scenario? Mark: Well, here's what we know. We know that some of the smartest people out there in the finance world work for insurance companies and banks. Right, these people? They don't lose money. Insurance companies don't lose money typically, at least not in the life insurance business and to my knowledge, no banks have ever lost money financing any of these policies. So really, that just leaves the policy, the holder, right, the person who's going to benefit from the actual policy itself and their heirs. And I can tell you this the insurance companies they don't underwrite things that are not going to work and the banks will not invest their capital in things that are not going to work. Yes, interest rates have risen precipitously and nobody knows in the near term what will happen, because it's everything's a speculation. Today, you know, the expectation is maybe they're going to bump rates up one or two more times before they start reversing course and hopefully by the end of 2024, they see rates coming down. But it's all speculation, it's all just what we hear from the experts. But long term, I can tell you, over rolling 10 year periods still, what's one of the safest, what's one of the most consistent places that you can have capital. You know great dividend paying stocks. You know the wonderful corporations of America. You're the small business owner who is competent, effective and willing to assume some risk of owning his own business has always been a tremendous way to do it. Rental, real estate, you know, other than those three things, what do you really have? So you have to deploy capital somewhere and, that being the case, having and, by the way, the type of policies that have proven to be most effective or effective today in this area. You know these indexed universal life policies. The underlying investments are tied to an investment index. Most typical ones are the S&P 500 and NASDAQ. You know, even in times of tremendous pressure on these markets, every academic will tell you and everybody who's in the securities business will say, it's just hard to beat the long term returns on America's best companies. They continue to grow for a reason. David: Yeah, well, that's why I think it was Warren Buffett that advised his heirs to just put all the money in index funds, because when you look at the cost and performance, and yeah I mean, it turns out that it's really hard to beat the market over a long period of time. Mark: We did have that thing called the lost decade. You know, just look at where we are today from then. Yeah, look at where the market sits today from where it was in 2008 and 2009. It's just staggering, right. So these type of policies, it's like it's a great marriage because you can participate in the upward climb of the underlying markets, of the S&P 500 or NASDAQ or whatever next, or in these particular policies. You can participate in that, but you don't participate in the loss, and by that I mean the effect of the market can only be positive on your policy. These policies are protected against a loss due to a market value adjustment, due to a down market. Your policy, your policies, are going to earn zero or some positive return and you're not going to lose money because the market went down. Right, hold out a negative market value adjustment, a downward market, a guarantee against a negative market value adjustment and B just to re-go, there's our video back and B. They know you're going to pass away at some point and the worst case scenario is they're going to collect when you pass away. Yeah, if you die in less than 15 years, they'll collect. That's correct. That's correct. So it's a win for the banks and, of course, the insurance companies always make money, sure. So the downside when we look at this is what else would we do with our money? The opportunity costs, yeah. What else would we do with our money if we didn't have it invested into America's greatest companies, if we didn't invest in our own business and our own abilities, or an investment in real estate? And if you remember, in 2008 and 2009, the stock market and real estate plummeted at the same time. Right, it was the first time what we call the uncoupling of those assets. Typically, real estate goes up and the market goes down. Market goes up, real estate Typically, there's some, there's their link in some way shape. Well, this time they were linked. All right, they both went down dramatically. David: Yeah, okay. So I can't believe how the time has flown by. I've got just a couple more questions before we wrap up. What do you wish you knew when you were 25? Wow, I wish. Or if you could go back and here's the way I meant to phrase it If you could go back in time and give advice to your 25 year old self, knowing what you know now what advice? And that you give yourself Confidence. Mark: Okay, what do you mean? Knowledge? Well, have confidence in yourself. Okay, have confidence. Have confidence in your ability to learn. Always learn, continue to learn and expand your mind. Don't draw yourself into this cone of specificity. This world has changed so many times. Have the confidence to be flexible. Have the confidence to step out and do different things. Expand your knowledge. And then the other thing is you oftentimes don't know what you don't know right, and sometimes it only comes with experience and the wisdom comes from the experience that you've been. You know those experiences that you've endured along the way. Don't let that deter you. Dick Vitale has a great new book out called Never Give Up. Yeah, it's kind of. It's kind of his story about persevering. I'm fortunate enough to be in that book. Oh, you are. I have one of the chapters in that book. I co-authored one of the chapters along with Dick Vitale, so it's it's. It's a little bit about my story of never giving up. So have the confidence. I didn't know that I'd be able to do all the things I can do today when I was 20 or 25 years old. Okay. David: Just don't know. Sure, no, that's great. I love it. Well, as we wrap up, is there anything that I didn't ask you, that you wish I had asked you? Mark: Well, I think we covered a couple of extremely important topics. You know, we do have three other entities in addition to Echelon Virtual Family Office, echelon Asset Protection, echelon Resource Teams. So there are a couple other companies that we could talk about at another time, if your audience is interested. David: Okay, well, that sounds great. Well, mark, I really appreciate you taking time out this morning to talk to me. I really love your story. I love the advice you give to yourself. I really enjoyed learning more about this more modern structure of premium finance, where there's maybe not quite as much leverage upside, but there's a lot less downside for the participant in terms of no personal guarantee and no collateral posting required. So thank you for that insight and just for your time and your enthusiasm for what you do. So thank you. Mark: David, thanks so much. It's been a pleasure being your guest today and I wish you well in your podcast, continued success. Thanks, mark. Special Guest: Mark Wade.

Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com.   S4E31 TRANSCRIPT: ----more----   Mark: Welcome back to The Wonder, Science Based Paganism. I'm your host, Mark, Yucca: And I'm Yucca. Mark: and today we are fortunate to have with us Susan, who is a new member of the Atheopagan Society Council, and we're interviewing the new members of the Council over the next... A couple of months or so the ones that, that want to be interviewed, just to get to know them and find out what their thinking is about all this stuff we're doing. So welcome, Susan. Susan: thanks for having me on. Yucca: And some of you who watch the YouTube channel may recognize Susan from there, who's been, who's part of the media team, and has been making excellent videos. Mark: Yes, yes. Susan is the glue on of the media team. She holds us all together. Yucca: which is not always easy appreciated with all of the emails that have been chasing us down to make all our schedules work, and yep, Susan: I try to balance it so that everybody doesn't think I'm super annoying, but helpful, not annoying. Mark: So far, so good. So, Susan why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and what brought you to atheopaganism and, you know, all that good kind of stuff. Susan: Yeah. Well, the short answer like it seems a lot of people is COVID brought me to atheopaganism. I, and I do have a short video, I think it's the first one that I did on the YouTube channel if anybody wants to check that out of my, my non theist upbringing and, and this kind of channel, so I'll, I'll make it a short version, but I live in the Midwest, in Ohio, and I've lived here my whole life, and I was raised without religion, but also not specifically atheist either. It was just sort of, we didn't talk about it. I didn't know the difference between a Republican and a Democrat until I was in high school because it was just, you know, I was left to my own devices. And I appreciate that for, for some things. There's definitely parts of me where I'm like, well, it'd be nice to have a little bit more direction. And I, we're kind of taking that track with our, with our daughter. I am, I'm married and I have six, soon to be seven year old, and kind of navigating that that space. My husband was raised Catholic, so we're kind of marrying together. He, he likes to call it ethnically Catholic, because he doesn't believe any of the stuff there, but so yeah, we, I, from a, Medium age started dabbling in stuff about the time when I was, you know, I'm an 80s baby. So by the time I was in high school, it was late 90s. And all of the witchy stuff started showing up all over the Barnes and Nobles. I'm like, Ooh, what is this? And especially the tarot card section with lots of stuff to touch and play with. So I I explored that area and the pagan, which at that time, at least, you know, Wicca was the super dominant thing in, at least that was publicly available. And so I dabbled in that for a while, and I kind of got It's like, this is fun, but I also don't really believe in this whole, you know, people try to rationalize it with, oh, it's the energy, and you're affecting the energy, and I was like, yeah, yeah, that, that makes sense, sure, and I, you know, doing the little, the little lie to yourself thing for a while. And then I kind of walked away from it for a while and just didn't, didn't bother with my, my spiritual life for a while until I got married. And we wanted to have a community for our child to grow up in so we joined a UU congregation, Unitarian Universalist, and they have, in our particular one, a fairly decent showing of pagan folks. And so I kind of picked that back up and we had a little bit of a range from full capital W witch to people who I think, you know, if I talked to them long enough about atheopaganism, that would be more up their alley but didn't, you know, know the words for it at that time. So it kind of came through there and then COVID hit and, you know, that community was sort of, sort of gone. But I was on the board and I was doing all of these committees and doing all the, I was doing all the work of being in a community, but not getting the community out of it. It was also right after we had merged. So my, my group went from 40 to 60 members to 200 and some people. And I didn't know all these people I was doing the work for and it just kind of, I kind of drifted away and was I was focusing more on what is it that I do believe in, since I had spent so much time just defining what I didn't believe in, and I found, kind of simultaneously, Druidry, which is something I'm, I'm pretty involved in, is my personal path, but also atheopaganism, and actually found I found out about atheopaganism through a blog whose, I can't remember what the blog was about but there was sort of an about me page and the person was describing, yeah, I don't really, you know, believe in the metaphysical part of this, but I still think it's really helpful check out atheopaganism, I'm like, yes, thank you, I will, and signed right up on the spot and I remember I read the, the principles And I don't know what bits of the, of the pages, but I remember running to my husband and being like, oh my gosh, I found them. I found my people. They're here, they exist. , I found it. I didn't know this was the words I needed, but I needed the word these words, you know, there's the validation of other people Yucca: was that during lockdown or was that a little bit afterwards? Susan: That was, I think, during lockdown 'cause I remember. We had still the the Earth centered group at my UU congregation was trying to do monthly Zoom get togethers, and I remember one of them, I was just, like, very excited to share with people that I had found both atheopaganism and the Druid organizations that I had joined at the same time, so. Mark: Well, that's very cool. I, I always love hearing these stories 'cause people, you know, people come to us through all different kinds of ways and and there is very commonly that I found them. They, they exist. I'm not the only one I am feeling which. I actually share, even though, you know, I, I wrote the essay in the book and stuff, because when other people started showing up, I, similarly, I was like, oh, I'm not the only one, there's more of us. This is great. So, very exciting. Well, it's great to have you with us, Susan. Thank you so much. So, You've just joined the Atheopagan Society Council and and you've been helping with the media team for a while. You're a very organized, get it done kind of person, which is really great.  Susan: Thanks. Mark: so, I don't know, what are your thoughts about this community and where we're going and, you know, what things would you like to see happen? You know, like new programs or any of that kind of stuff, if you've thought about it. Susan: I think my main thing that I want to see is that I hope you're going anywhere soon, but, you know, I want to make, I want to show up so that down the road we don't trickle and fade away when, you know, you, Mark, or, you know, the, the original set of people doing the council you know, are gone or, or, you know, have to be pulled away for whatever reason. I just don't want it to, to fade and be the thing that, that used to be really great for a while and then just nobody could keep up for it, keep up with it. And so that's something I'm interested in is, and I don't know what that looks like. I don't know what infrastructure we, you know, are going to end up with to make that be something that really sticks and stays and has standing. I imagine it'll be Getting a lot of volunteers and getting a lot of structure in place for volunteers so that people, you know, we don't avoid burnout. And that's I know, that's one of the things that we're talking about at the council meeting coming up. But that's, that's kind of my priority. But I am excited about the idea of getting more, not necessarily content, but getting more things in place for people to do in person, even if it's not with other people, but just more of an idea I was in a sorority in college and it was a One of the things that I thought was fun about that is that there were certain things that you did and you're, you know, it's, you know, a secret and secret rituals that everybody does, but you knew that even though you went to a different school than this person that you maybe met down the street and they went to school. different school, but they were still part of the same sorority as you. You knew they had the same ritual as you, Mark: hmm. Susan: and I love that we have so much open endedness of, you know, build your own adventure within atheopaganism. I think it might be fun to get something in place that is something we can all share, or those who are interested can all share, and like, I don't know if that looks like a standard ritual format or something, which is what some other organizations do, like some of the druid organizations, I mean, what they have. Here's our official format, and I don't know that that's something that we would really want, but something that has that feel to it, that essence of, hey, here's how you can feel a part of this, On your own, but still together kind of a feel. I think more of those kinds of things would be. And I think that would help a lot of people who seem to be clamoring for structure, you know, there's definitely the people in the community who are like, I am totally happy to do this by myself and come up with my own thing. And that's great. But then there seemed to be a lot of people who want a little more hand holding with their practice too. Mark: Mm hmm. Susan: So that's kind of, Yucca: of the insights that you have that I've really appreciated is that you're a fellow parent with, with a kiddo in the same age range and it's been nice to have someone to bounce off some of that, you know, how do we make that feeling available for, for kids who are growing up in this community? Because that's something that, for me, growing up as a pagan kid, there wasn't really anything for us. It was like, it was all the grown up stuff, and we were just sort of, you know, put it at a third wheel, right? And I think that it'd be nice for our community to have something a little bit more, more community for the kids as well. And I know that not everybody has kids in the community, but that's something that... There definitely are, there's quite a few of us, so, Mark: hmm. Sure. Susan: yeah. Yucca: something that you've brought that I've really valued, Susan. Mark: Yeah, I mean, I don't have kids, but I, I absolutely support that. I think that having activities for families that that work for the adults as well as for the kids is something that I really would like to see us have more of. Yucca: Mm Susan: Especially for parents who maybe only one of them is into it. My husband is very supportive and so, Mark: Mm-hmm. Susan: I, I know that I'm lucky in getting the amount of participation that I do, and there's plenty of people who are parents who it's very one sided and, you know, they may not get the, the family feel, like we can, I at least can say this is what we're doing as a family, but if you don't even have that, it can, it could be really nice to have. That feeling with other people, Mark: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We're gonna be talking about some ideas for that at the upcoming council meeting on Wednesday.  Yucca: And those are quarterly meetings. Mark: yes, Yucca: We do them after each solstice and equinox. Mark: yeah. So I'm, I'm pretty excited about some of those ideas. Some of them could be a lot of work to implement. But once they kind of got up and rolling, I think there would be so much excitement about... The activities themselves that that there would be a lot of, that that momentum would create the excitement that would create the volunteerism to keep it going, if you know what I mean. So, let's see first of all, I guess, do you have questions for us? Susan: man I feel like I'm trying, I'm trying to think of questions you haven't already answered on the podcast before or things that Mark: Oh, don't worry about that. Don't worry about that. You're, you're, it's okay if it's been asked before, that's, that's perfectly all right. Susan: No, I just mean, I'm like, I feel like I'm like, no, they said they answered that question for me before because I've, I've tried to keep up on it. I don't know that I've listened to every episode, but,  Yucca: we certainly do have folks who've done every single episode, but we have a lot of people who kind of come in for a few episodes, and then out, and then people who just find the podcast, and lots of different listening styles, or people who've listened for every year. But how many years are we at now? Mark: We're in season four, Yucca: Yeah, Mark: so. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's closing in on 200 episodes, I think. So it's, it's a, a chunk of work and time if you really wanna listen to all of them, which is why we, we do an episode for every Sabbath every year. We don't just say, go and listen to last year's, you know, Mayday episode. Instead, we do a new one every year because we've got people that are new to the podcast and you know, the stuff may be new for them. Uhhuh Yucca: Well, and it's a Susan: And hopefully there's something changing. Yucca: I'm curious to go back and listen and be like, did I even say remotely the same thing? Probably. But, Mark: you know, Susan, you were talking about a shared ritual. And what immediately popped into my head is the pouring of a libation, which is a very old, I mean, the Greeks used to pour libations, you know, in honor of their gods and stuff. And I wonder if we might have something like that, that would be kind of a shared atheopagan ritual that everybody would do to do that kind of offering to the earth. That might be kind of neat to put some, put some ritual trappings around and turn into something that we all share. Thank you. Susan: Yeah. And maybe I'm thinking do it on a, have it as a day that's not necessarily one of the spokes of the wheel, if you will. So it's, we're not interrupting anybody's already scheduled programming for this thing, like an extra, maybe it's on Earth Day or something, you know, like a, Yucca: Pi Mark: Huh. Susan: people won't already have their own set Mark: Huh. Yeah. Yeah. I'll think about it. I love the idea. Yeah. The equivalent of an atheopagan secret handshake. Uh Yucca: Hmm. Susan: Another thing I've been thinking about that I would be, I would love to do, at least for myself someday, is there's been a lot of chatter in the community lately about atheopagan saints, and I'm, I recently picked up from my friend who's in one of my druid groups, a Celtic Catholic set of prayer books, and it's kind of like a daily prayer thing, and I know that, I don't know a whole lot about Catholicism, but I know there's like a saint for every day, and I think it would just be fun to have a, like a solid atheopagan devotional kind of a thing, right, with Like, oh, today is, and I was, I started collecting things, so there's a day in February, I don't remember which day, it, of course, because everything, you know, gets mushed around with, over time and history, but I want to start celebrating Fornicalia in February, and for the Thank you. ancient god Fornax, who was in charge of baking bread in ovens. And it's like a day that you clean your oven and bake bread in it. So I'm like, Ooh, this might actually motivate me to do the thing that I don't want to do if I make it into a holiday and say, this is the thing that we're doing. Yucca: Very practical, right? Mark: you said Fornicalia, I went in an entirely Susan: Yeah, that sounds fun. It's less fun than you think. But bread Yucca: that day is in February, isn't it? The 14th? Isn't that day already in February? The 14th? Susan: Fornacalea is like the Like the 28th or something. I'll look it up and put it in Mark: think you may be thinking of Lupercalia. Susan: I'm going to find it. But yeah, it's, I have it as the 17th in my calendar, but you know, Mark: The day to clean your oven and bake bread in it. I love it. Susan: Yeah. Now I just need another one, you know, six months hence, so that I clean it more than once a year, but that's optimistic Yucca: Could there be, could there be one for air filters, too? Susan: yeah, right. That can be our shared ritual is clean your filter Mark: is replacing your, your air filters. Yeah. I love that. I, I love, I love the idea of I mean, I have so many regular observances that I do just for myself, and I never, you know, I'm, I'm very careful, I don't, I don't want to prescribe them for anybody else, you know, it's like, this definitely is a choose your own adventure kind of thing. Thank you. Religious path. It's like build what works for you, but it would be nice to be able to offer to people, you know, here's this compilation of, I don't know, five days every month or something that are special days that are the birthday of some significant, you know, scientist or innovator or creator in history and little bit of history about him and something that you can do, pour out that libation. You know, in honor of, oh, I'm spacing on the name. I just shared on Facebook to my friend group a a biography of this woman who actually figured out that the universe was mostly made of hydrogen. And I don't remember her name, but she's responsible for us understanding what the universe is made of. And she didn't even get any credit for it. Her somebody else published the results. You know, pretty typical for women scientists in the, in the Susan: hmm. Yucca: Yeah, yeah, I don't know, I don't know who that is, right? Which, itch is a problem that we don't know that. Mark: yes, yes, well, I'm going to look it up right now. So this, Susan: yeah, people really liked the 13 different atheopagan principles applied to the moon cycles, and that's great. It's, it's an offering, not a prescription, and, and people are just like, oh yes, thank you, give me, give me ideas. Yucca: yeah, maybe, I mean, when you were talking about those things, like a daily Right? Like a book that you read about, your little paragraph. I know a lot of different religions do that, and things that are totally secular, too. Like just a daily something. You know, I certainly use those in my practice that are just, they're really nice, right? It's just like this little thing, and it's like, oh, okay, cool. Just kind of think about this for the day, Mark: little Susan: Mm hmm. Yucca: right? And you take it or you don't take it, but it's kind of nice to have, to see how it just fits into whatever your experience is. And even if you use the same book more than one year in a row, like, by the time you get back around to May 14th or whatever it is, like, you've had the whole experience of a year and you're gonna see it in a different way, it's gonna fit into your life in a different way. Mark: mm hmm, Cecilia Payne, Yucca: Pain, okay. Mark: Cecilia Payne. Since her death in 1979, the woman who discovered what the universe is made of has not so much as received a memorial plaque. Really amazing. Susan: Well, that's an idea for if we for, for listeners, one of the things we're thinking about maybe doing is the scout program. If we have that, we can have that as the capstone project for somebody Yucca: Yeah. Susan: her a plaque. Mark: Yeah. Yeah, that would be great. Some kind of a memorial. The person who figured out what the universe is made of probably deserves some kind of recognition. Yucca: Do podcast. Susan: Yeah, I don't know if it's a good idea. Yucca: And I know we have, there's not, like things aren't set in stone, but what, when you say scout, like, what are you talking about? Susan: yeah, well at least it was sort of talked in the community about this. I think it would be fun for adults too, but like, it's hard to, as a parent for me at least my husband was an Eagle Scout in the Boy Scout program, but I know, and I know that they have made some reforms and some steps in the right direction, but for me it's still not enough to feel comfortable enrolling my daughter in it and I have reservations about Girl Scouts for different reasons. Capitalism, and genderification, and just different things that I'm just not, there are certainly troops that I'm sure do a wonderful job, and there are certainly troops that don't but Yucca: A lot to navigate though. Mm-hmm. Susan: It's, yeah, it's a hard thing to navigate and I don't want to start it and have it come crashing down on her. So, and I think we sort of chatted in the community about this being a common thing and I had posted a few things a few months ago asking people about spiral scouts, which is a more pagan oriented group. And so now the, the scuttlebutt is, you know, maybe we can be an atheopagan chapter of that. Maybe we can create our own thing, like what is and what would be a nice thing. But a lot of parents have commented on it and said, Oh, yes, please sign me up. Dude, let's do this. Mark: hmm. Susan: We can't necessarily do things in person, not for logistical reasons. I'm very fortunate that I have A handful of atheopagans right near me. It's really great. I think I'm the only one with, with kids that I'm aware of, but it's not the case for a lot of folks. Mark: Yeah, I mean, we are, we're spread pretty thinly. So, our, most of our opportunity for face to face stuff comes through mediation like this, like Zoom. But that said if there Thanks If Spiral Scouts can be done in a way where there's like, kind of a learning chapter set of activities that get sent to a family, either as a PDF or in a physical package or, you know, however that works, and then, you know, all the different families that are doing it can do that and then come together over Zoom and kind of share their experience and show off their cool thing that they made and all that, I think that would be a really wonderful thing both for kids and for parents. It'd, you know, be a real, you know, wonderful thing to share with, with your kids, I would think. Yucca: I know my kids are definitely excited about the idea of badges , because they see that in, in the media of, there's so many different things where it's like, where it has that setup, like, oh, the comic, you know, the, like lumber Janes for instance, and there's like badges in that and the oh, what's it called? The, there's a Netflix show. Susan: Hilda? Yucca: Hilda, yes, with this, with the I'm forgetting the name of their scouts, but they had, it was named after a bird, right? And so they see that and they're always like, I want badges for that, right? So I'm sure they would be very enthusiastic about anything badge related. Mark: I really like that the Spiral Scouts has kept the badges but gotten rid of ranks. Yucca: Mm. Mark: So there's, there's no hierarchy of, you know, in the Boy Scouts you start out as a tender foot and then you work your way up through all these levels until you're an Eagle Scout, right? And, you know, some of the stuff in there is very useful and wonderful stuff to do. I mean, you have to do a community project in order to become an Eagle Scout, and those are, you know, it builds a sense of responsibility to the broader community, which is great. But the rank thing, I mean, I was big into Cub Scouts. My, my Cub Scout shirt looked like a a Latin American dictator from the 1950s. I had so many pins and badges and medals and it was ridiculous. The thing must have weighed five pounds. And I was really into that. But when I got to Boy Scouts, suddenly it was like paramilitary training and I just didn't want any part of it. It was, you know, it's like lining up for inspection of your uniform and stuff like that. It was, Hmm. Not, not my idea of a good time. So, no ranks in in Spiral Scouts. Just skill attainments. Susan: That's what I think my little one would be interested in too is just the gamification of learning life skills. Mark: Mm hmm. Susan: That's what I would love badges too. I would love a an adult 13 principles and four pillars set of badges and you do, I don't know what it is, like you do a small project for each one and you get a badge or, I don't know, honor system. Mark: we should absolutely do that. Just, just create a, a checklist of things that you do for each of the, the principals and then, you know, we'll have badges made and or, you know, or people could download the the... The software for the patch sewing machines, and then they could go, go to a local producer and have the patches made for them bunch of different ways we could do that. Well, I really have my mind spinning around all this now. It's going to be terribly disappointing if we decide we can't do it. But Yucca: Well, there's also, we can always, you know, spiral back around to ideas too, because we have to, we have to look at what, you know, what can we currently do, and what are the priorities of the community at the time, and see how things go. So, so Susan, if you were talking about the future, right, what would be your fantasy for 50 years from now? What would you hope to see? What would atheopaganism be in, you know, 50 years? It's, it's not us on the council anymore, right? Definitely other Mark: And I'm dead. Yucca: Maybe, hey, you might hang in there. Maybe, Mark: 50 years from now, I would Yucca: maybe medical technology will change. Mark: eleven. Yucca: Oh, that's a great Bilbo, right? Okay. Susan: As my, my daughter says, when you're 100, you're compost. Yucca: so what would you hope? Just, just fantasy, right? What would, what would we look like? Susan: I mean, I would love to see us be at the scale of, like, UU, where maybe, you know, there's not necessarily Church building on every corner kind of a thing like you get with, you know, your Baptist churches and your Catholic churches and all that kind of stuff, but I would love to have expanded enough that we have so much in person opportunity, and maybe it's not, you know, a congregation where everybody comes together on Sundays or that kind of thing, because I don't, I don't know that that's a right fit, but just to have, I don't know, your local atheopagan community center place that everybody comes together for their monthly meeting or whatever it is, but just more, just more. I think I would just love to connect with more people, because I think there's so many, there's definitely people, at least in my life, who are happy just being atheists, and that's fine for them and that's great, they can enjoy that, but I think that there are a lot of people who I know who could benefit from something like this, and anybody that I've talked to for more than two minutes Where I've been had a chance to answer their questions about it because you just say the words and they're like, that doesn't make any sense. Why would you do that if you're an atheist? Right? Then they're like, Oh, okay. Yeah, I can see that. I understand. I understand why you would want to do that. And I think maybe a lot of people who are trapped. who feel trapped by atheism or who feel trapped by more traditional religious practices would find peace and joy with us. And I think, I don't know, I'm sure everybody feels this way about their own religious path, but I feel like if there were more of us, then the world would be a nicer place. But Mark: Yeah, I like to think so. We're we're, we're, we're about people being happy and the world being a better place. It's kind of hard to go wrong with those as your touchstones. It's God, it's, you know, we're doing this strategic plan in the Atheopagan Society, which by the way we created so that atheopaganism would have a container that could persist past me or anybody else, any other individual. You know, that's, that's why the society exists. And my book, I'm, I'm willing the rights to my book to the society. So, you know, that will always be available to atheopagans in the future. But I was saying, we're doing this strategic plan for like the next two or three years because it's hard to imagine much beyond that. So thinking about Yucca: So I said fantasy. Yeah. Mark: yeah, 50 is like mind blowing. I can't even, can't even get my mind around that. Yucca: I have a 20, Mark. Mark: 20, 20 years. What would happen? Well, for one thing, we would have enough of us that there would be opportunities for regional gatherings in a lot of places, you know, maybe two, three regional gatherings in Europe maybe one in Australia and so more opportunities for people to meet in person and You know, because that's really the gold standard of relating, right? I mean, it's wonderful that we have these tools to be able to communicate across distance, but there's nothing like being able to actually just sit down next to someone and have a conversation. I'm hoping for a lot more of that. Speaking of which, we have the Suntree Retreat coming up again in 2024, and we will soon start taking deposits to reserve space. Yucca: That is less than a year away. Mark: it looks like, yes, it's less than a year away. It's about 11 months away. And so we're working on what the content of all that's going to be. So that's locked in place. And now it's just a matter of, you know, figuring out the pricing on everything, and looks like the admission prices for, for the event and all the meals combined will be about 250. And then lodging. And lodging is as cheap as, and it can be more if you have a space in a cabin. Yucca: Mark, we're losing you into the robot. Mark: People should be able to do this event. How's that? Can you hear me now? Yucca: We can hear you now. You're frozen. Yes, now we can hear you. If you'll start again with people should be able to. Mark: Okay. Go to this event for less than 400 plus transportation. Yucca: Okay. Than 400 plus transportation. Mark: yes. Yeah, that, that's, I'm sure that that's going to be possible. In fact, it'll be... It's possible to go even less if you tent camp, so it's a good, good time to go tent camping. Tent camping only costs like 20 bucks for lodging for the whole three days. So, you know, if you set up your own tent or we can accommodate I think one RV Yucca: And that should be late summer, early fall weather wise, so that's a good time of year for it. Mark: Yes, yes, and, and unlikely to be, to have any rain. We actually got really lucky in May of 2022 because it snowed at La Forêt the week after we were there. Yucca: Wasn't it snowing several hours after we finally left? Mark: I don't know  Yucca: I know I was, as I was coming, I thought there was snow and then certainly as I was coming down, headed south down by the Rockies, it was raining, which was blessed because it was, we'd been having those horrible fires in New Mexico at the time and it was just raining the whole way Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: But I think that they were getting more rain than I was getting as I was driving down, or I was driving up, but down south. It's confusing. I think. Susan: yeah, Mark: Well, we have the big the big hall, Ponderosa. If it does, that isn't a problem, but the weather should be beautiful. I, I looked up the, the average weather in Colorado Springs that first weekend in September. I think the high average is 75 degrees or something. It's just perfect. So, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: should be really great. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: we're already talking about what all the content of things is going to be, and we'll put out a call for presentations and workshops in a couple of months, and before we know it, we'll be in Colorado Springs. It'll be, you know, with, with, with the gang. Yucca: Ball's rolling. Yep. Mark: Yeah, Susan: excited. I've already planned for it. So Yucca: Will the kiddo be coming? Mark: That's great. Susan: I think it's going to be all three of Mark: Yeah, is your hood Susan: they're not going to do all of the things, but Mark: There are beautiful places to go right around there. Garden of the Gods and Rocky Mountain National Park. Just gorgeous, gorgeous places to go. So if they like hiking in the outdoors there are lots of opportunities for them to enjoy that as well. Susan: yeah, and we might do, we might do tent Mark: Yucca, were you saying something? Yucca: oh, I was gonna say my, will at that time be five, almost six and eight year old will be joining me. Last time it could only be the, the older, but the, the youngest is, is excited for that rite of passage to get to go to, they call it the Ponderosa Pine, so, cause of the lodge, Mark: Huh. Nice. It's so great having her there. That was just wonderful. Yucca: Well, she'll be excited about the idea of more kiddos. I think there were other parents who had, who were there last time who were like, Oh, I should have brought mine. Right? But they didn't know that it was gonna, there were gonna be activities. So we'll have more activities for little people next time. So we'll have a little gang of them running around. Mark: Huh. Yeah, I think for some of the parents, because it was a first time event and they didn't know what to expect and, you know, pagan events can be pretty raucous sometimes, they kind of wanted Yucca: Yeah, we lost you again, Mark. You said they kind of wanted. Mark: to do, you know, reconnaissance first, go in and check out what this was going to be like. Can you hear me now? Yucca: Yes. We can hear you. Okay. So you were saying some parents, sometimes they can be a little ruckus y. Ruck that wasn't the word. Mark: Well, yeah, I mean, you know, pagan festivals can be, you know, kind of uproarious and sexy and, and, you know, lots of, you know, carousing, and I think some parents were kind of leery of that and wondered what the tone of this was going to be like, and, you know, after having been there and discovered that we were able to have a good time without things sliding over into inappropriate conversation. Boundaryless mess that that it's a fine place for their kids to come, and I, I really encourage parents to come. Tickets will be actually, I think we said that Attendance was free for those 10 years old and younger, and tickets are discounted for those 16 and younger, or under 16. So, yeah other than having to get a bed for them if they're, if you're not tent camping kids should be very affordable to bring, Yucca: Was there anything else that you'd like to talk about or share, Susan? Anything you think that people should know about you? Mark: anything you'd like to say to the community. Yucca: Yeah. Mm Susan: I guess I'd like to say, tell us what you want to see, because You know, I think you both have mentioned this before about the podcast, but it's true of the YouTube channel too, is there's only so much creativity, the same, and there's so much overlap with both of you being on the the YouTube media team as well, like, there's only so much creativity we all have, so please tell us what it is you want to know about, what you want to hear about, what kind of content You, you want to see so we can get that out there you know, I, I generated when we first, when first I first got involved with the YouTube channel, I generated this big old list of, oh, here's a bunch of ideas and now I don't know if any of them are in the comments. Not resonating with me, or at least I'm like, oh, I'm not the right person to talk about that particular topic, but I'm like, what am I, I'm supposed to write a video. I don't know what I want to talk about. I guess that's, this is why maybe some of the days, even though I'm the glue on, my things are a little bit late later than they're supposed to get to, to the right people. But yeah, let's, let us know what you want to hear about. I'm, I'm happy to I'm Write stuff or record stuff or be in front of people and but I don't know what it is people want to hear about so Tell us Mark: Yeah, yeah, I really echo that, because after four years of producing these, new topics can be challenging. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: It's, when we think of one, it's like, oh, oh, a new topic! We can do that! It's very exciting. It's a little easier in October, because we've got Ancestors and Death and Dying and Decomposition and Hallows and all those things. But for much of the rest of the year, we're... We could really use input on, you know, what kinds of things you'd like to hear about. Yucca: Especially like in July, like, hmm, what do we talk about? Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Because this time of year, yeah, October, and then we're going into solstice coming up, and yeah, Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: busy next few months. Mark: Well, Susan, thank you so much for joining us today. It is wonderful to have you on board and to have you be a part of the community. And Yucca: Thanks for all the cool ideas today, too. Susan: Thanks. Yucca: think about. Mark: Absolutely. Susan: I'm good at ideas for fun things and not so much the follow through, so. Yucca: Oh, that's not true! You make the follow through possible! Mark: Even if that were true, it's still a really important role. You know, being, being a creative person who comes up with cool ideas, that's really important. So, we need cool ideas. Susan: I'm hoping that, you know, eventually we're going to hit a critical mass of people in the community that somebody, you throw out an idea and somebody's going to grab it and just run, who, you know, has the skill set and. I hope. I guess that's another thing I want to tell people is if you feel like you want to contribute something, please do. Like, I just showed up one day and was like, hey, I can help with things and now I'm on the media team and now I'm on the council. So don't be scared. Mark: Absolutely. Yucca: Well, thank you so much, Susan. Susan: Thanks for having me. Mark: Yeah. Thanks so much. We'll see you next week, folks.    

Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. An Atheopagan Declaration of Policy Values (2022): https://theapsocietyorg.files.wordpress.com/2022/03/an-atheopagan-declaration-of-policy-values-2022.final_.pdf S4E30 TRANSCRIPT:   Yucca: Welcome back to The Wonder, Science Based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts, Yucca. Mark: And I'm the other one, Mark. Yucca: And today, we're talking about religion and politics. Mark: Yes, but don't turn it off. Yucca: Yes, we were saying, what should we call this? What should we call this? But no, this is, this is important. This is what we're going to talk about. And there's a lot to say here. But today it was inspired because, Mark, you just got back from a trip, which you got to do some pretty cool politicking. Mark: Yes I went to Washington, D. C. as a part of a fly in delegation by the Conservation Alliance, and I'll tell some of those stories later advocating for protections for public lands, including the designation of some new national monuments. So, I, as I said, I'll, I'll talk about that stuff later but yeah, just got back from a lobby trip, Yucca: Yeah. So one of the things that... It is very common to hear in pagan circles, and I think probably not just pagan circles, but a lot of new age things and kind of, mini counterculture sorts of groups, is, you know, don't bring politics. into this, right? Don't, don't bring politics into my religion. Don't, you know, we, we aren't going to talk about that. We're not going to be this is separate, right? Let's be, let's be off in our realm or our magical experience and leave that other stuff out. Mark: right? And there is so much to be said about that. I mean, it has a nexus with toxic positivity. This idea that, you know, we should only talk about happy, shiny stuff, and that, you know, we're going to have this nice, warm, glowy, serotonin oxytocin experience by doing our, our spirituality, and we're just not going to engage with anything that doesn't stimulate that. It has to do with the toxicity that we see in the societies around us where the mainstream religions are engaging with public policy and they're doing it for really destructive and antisocial reasons. And so that becomes sort of the poster child for why you wouldn't want you to have politics in your spiritual space. But a lot of it, in my opinion, is simply... We don't want to think about any of those issues because they might bring us down. Yucca: hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. But, and there's just so much to say because there's, it's going to depend on every different kind of situation but I think that if we think about the values that We often claim to have that we value the earth, that we think the earth is sacred. You know, we may have different interpretations on, you know, whether divinity is involved with that or not, but hey, we're agreeing, we think that the earth is important, we're agreeing about believing that love and freedom and all of these things are important, then I think that... If we really believe that, then we have a responsibility to those things. Mark: Yes, yes, we it's because they won't happen by themselves. You know, there are interests which are destructive interests and are not filled with love and are not about advancing liberty and are not about supporting the biosphere in a manner which is consistent with biodiversity and with the sustaining of humanity. And they're out there advocating for their stuff every day. And if we absent ourselves from the process because we think that it is too negative or too gross or too demoralizing, then we are leaving the field to those who would do us harm. And it's just not, there is no logic to it that makes sense to me, other than at the most sort of Self indulgent, I just want to feel good for me kind of place, where it makes sense to say, I'm not going to vote, I'm not going to advocate for what I care about, I'm not going to be interested in any kind of activism. I mean, everybody's circumstances Yucca: become informed about it, Mark: right. Yucca: right? Mark: Everybody's circumstances are different, and not everybody can be a big activist, right? You know, if you're, you know, you're raising kids, or, and you're, you know, scraping by, and, you know, there's a lot of different, I mean, poverty is a social control strategy. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: So, it is, it is one way that people who have the common good at heart are kept limited in the amount of power that they have. So let's, let's not mince words about that. But even with the limitations that we have, I have always felt that it was my responsibility to do what I can to try to advance the values that matter to me. And I'm pleased to say that the community that's grown up around atheopaganism is very much the same way. We're gonna, we're gonna put a Link in the show notes to the Atheopagan Declaration of Policy Values, which came out last year and was developed by the community with tons of community input and editing and all that kind of stuff. Yucca: There was a lot of back and forth and lots and lots of people participating and, you know, wording things just for, it was quite inspiring, actually. Mm hmm, Mark: the level, level of collaboration with the minimal amount of argument was very inspiring to me. And so now we have this document, and it can be downloaded from the Atheopagan Society website. So we're going to put the link in the, in the show notes so you can download that. But that's an example of the community speaking out on issues that really matter to us, and saying, this is where we stand. This is what our activism is going to be built around. This is, you know, we... We embrace LGBTQ people. We do. And it's not just, it's not just You know, so called virtue signaling, we genuinely do, we want those folks, we want people of color, we want indigenous people in our community, you know, we want them to be safe, we want them to be seen, we want them to be heard as, as an example. And similarly, along the environmental axis, along the axis of personal liberty and autonomy, bodily autonomy, all of those you know, the importance of critical thinking and science all of those pieces are a part of what our movement is about. And so, when we talk with the public, That is, that is core to what we express. Yes, we're here for happiness. We're here for people to feel good. We're all for that. But as one of the atheopagan principles says, you know, responsibility, social responsibility is one of our principles. Yucca: right. Mark: It is an obligation that we have. Yucca: And so those values, they're not just about talking about them, they're about, those are what inform the choices that we're making. Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: Right? And being able to reflect on what those are, right? is really important. Have conversations about that, because we're not, there's going to be nuance, right? We're not always going to see eye to eye on things, and being able to, as individuals, talk about that with each other, and as a community, be able to, to talk about that and, and, you know, have that conversation is really important. Mark: Absolutely. Absolutely. And we learn from one another, right? I mean, that's a really important piece because As strongly as I feel on a value level about supporting people of color in the LBGTQI plus community I'm not one of either of those groups. And so I have to listen a lot in order to understand, well, what is an appropriate statement to make in support, right? How do I show up as an ally and as and as an advocate? Or a supporter for their advocacy, you know. So, you know, it's not as simple as just having a laundry list of policy positions. And it has to also recognize that we live in a world of subtle differences. Right? Subtle gradations of change throughout the whole natural world, and that includes humanity. So, I get really kind of bent sideways when I hear the lesser of two evils, or I'm not going to vote for that person because of this one little position, when the alternative is so much worse on every position. The best analogy that I've heard is that voting isn't dating, it's selecting, it's selecting the best possible option off of the available menu. And the available menu only includes people that actually have a chance of getting elected. It's not just some fringe outlier who tells you what you want to hear. Yucca: mhm, Mark: that can actually get into a position to make change in a positive direction. Yucca: mhm, mhm, mhm. Mark: So, we had a bunch of stuff on the outline for this podcast. What else have you got? Yucca: Well, certainly the, the issue of privilege is definitely Mark: Oh, yeah  Yucca: and this is something that I think comes up where people will be unaware of the place of privilege that they may be coming from to be able to say, I don't want to deal with this. I don't want this coming into, you know, my religion or my, anything about that, because that, that isn't the position that most people are going to be in that situation, right? Yeah. Mm Mark: Yeah the, I think the clearest way to express that is that if you have the luxury of saying, Oh, I don't want to vote that just encourages them, or I'm not going to consider any of those issues because I just want to be on my, you know, spiritual path of lightness and joy thing. Is that people that are marginalized and endangered by the way our society operates, they don't have the luxury to do that. If you look at voting rates, for example, African American women vote astronomically in high proportions in the United States. And the reason for that is that the interests of the community that they are in are, are, are stark. The, you know, the threats that certain people like a Donald Trump and the people that he brings with him present to that community are so real. They're not, they're not theoretical. It's not just something where, where as a white person, you look at it and go, Oh, gee, that's too bad. This is life and death for them. And they turn out to vote. They're organized. They're knowledgeable. You know, these are people who are, are leveraging the power that they have absolutely as much as they can. And when I hear people say, you know, oh, well, I'm not going to vote because blah, blah, blah. What I, what I really hear is, I am so cushioned from the impacts of the policies that get made by people that I don't... Agree with in theory that I can just skate on this and ride on, on the, the, the privilege that I enjoy in the society in order to avoid having to deal with something that I might find icky. Yucca: yeah, I'm being served by the system, fundamentally. Yeah. Mark: So, you know, I'll give an example. It's like, an argument can be made that the certain proportion of people who in, in key states who supported Bernie Sanders, And then refused to vote for Hillary Clinton may have given us Donald Trump. It's not that they had to agree with everything that Hillary Clinton said because they didn't, I didn't. But the appointees that she was going to make, the appointees to the Supreme Court, the appointees to the, the cabinet positions, the appointees to federal judgeships. All of those things were going to be head and shoulders above any of the things that Trump ended up doing. And it's painful to say, but those people needed to look at the big picture and go and vote for Hillary Clinton. And they didn't. And it's that, it's that, that sense of privilege, that sense of it not mattering that much that I really think needs to be interrogated on the left. And I am on the left, right, but I'm on the left that seeks to achieve progress because I'm a progressive, and progress happens in incremental steps most of the time. Progress isn't a home run. Progress is a base hit, and electing Hillary Clinton would have been a base hit on the way towards achieving better policies. And instead, we have what we have. So, you know, and I realize that there are going to be people that are going to be fuming when they hear me say this but seriously, look at the playing board, and look at what we got, and You know, think about, well, what does this mean for the next election? Where, where should I be putting my support? Yucca: Hmm, yeah definitely was not expecting that, I was not prepared for that direction of the conversation. That's something that I would have to really think a lot on. I understand some of the sentiment behind it, but I would want to look more at some of the numbers. And some of the assumptions about who is entitled to what vote, and whether those, I think that there's a lot to that situation, and I don't feel comfortable, I mean, you certainly have the opinion that you want, but necessarily agreeing and and um humming without really looking at that particular situation. I think that there's a lot that was going on there. But I've certainly heard that argument a lot, and one of the things that I have been uncomfortable with is, and I'm not saying that you're saying this, but this is something that I have heard often, is the sense of entitlement of those people's votes. That, you know, somehow this party was entitled to people's votes. What about... So, you know, do the numbers actually work out of how many Democrats voted Republican in that situation versus how many Independents voted one direction or the other? I think that there's a lot to really look into there. Mark: Sure, sure. And I have looked into it some. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: I should be clear, I'm not saying that Hillary Clinton deserved anybody's vote, or was entitled to everybody's, to anybody's vote. I'm saying she deserved them from a strategic standpoint. Yucca: hmm. Mark: That when you look at the playing field, And what was the right next move, that that was the right next move. And in certain states like Wisconsin there were, there were enough votes that dropped off. That the argument can be made, but, but let's, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: let's make the whole thing abstract, okay? Rather than talking about that, that election in specific, let's talk about elections generally. When you have a situation where somebody who you agree with 50 percent is running against somebody who is agreeing with you 10%, And then there's somebody out there who agrees with you 100%, but they have no ability to be elected. And it's clear Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: You know, I need to go for the 50 percent because, again, I'm a progressive. So I want to see things advance, even if they're going to go a lot slower than I want them to go. Yucca: Right, well I think in some of that case it's going to depend on what are the particular changes that, and what are the things that you are placing at highest priority, right? And if one of the things that you're placing at high priority is trying to do something about the monopoly, then that the two parties have, I can see the logic of making a different choice there. But I think that the point, I think the point where we probably agree is that when you're voting, it's something to be very strategic about. It's to look at what is the situation where you are and what are the possible outcomes and thinking about You know, what are the values that you are, that you are fighting for in that case, right? What are they, right? Mark: and the key takeaway that I would, that I would leave this particular rabbit hole with is that not to vote is to vote. If you don't vote, you are Yucca: is voting, yeah. Mark: It is voting. So it is you know, you, you don't get away with your hands clean just because you don't vote, right? You, you bear a responsibility for election outcomes just like everybody else does. And that's a really important thing for people in democracies to understand. And I'll talk a little bit later on about democracy and the degree to which we have it and all that good kind of stuff. Yucca: And This is just one area, right? This is an area that we happen to be talking about because this is an area where, where this is something that there's some strong opinions on, and this is an area where people do have influence, but of course there's a lot of other things. As well, in terms of you know, commercial choices and lifestyle choices and all of that kind of stuff that we can but one thing I really want to highlight, and you touched on this a little bit before, but I think it really deserves its own section of the podcast as well, is that being able to spend large amounts of time on these issues is a form of privilege itself too, right? And this is not something that everyone has. And you don't have to be guilty and beat yourself up and you're not a bad pagan because you've got to do a 9 to 5 plus your two side jobs to even be able to Barely make rent, right? That's not, so we're not sitting here saying, oh, shame on, you're failing because you're not fighting oil rigs in the, you know, gulf and how come you're out there? Like, that's not what we're saying at all. And I think that it's really, really important to think about and balance in our lives the self care component. And, that sometimes, yes, it's, sometimes it is okay to just have your celebration and to not necessarily be talking about, you know, let's raise money for this, this particular candidate at this time, or something like that, but know that it does, that this stuff does have a place in the community, it is important, but it isn't, The, you don't have to be doing it all the time, if that's not what your, what your mental health needs. Mark: No, no, definitely not. And it's important for those of us that have the privilege to be able to engage the system in that way, either from the outside or the inside, that we recognize that privilege and use it. Right? You know, those of us that have the bandwidth, those of us who have You know, the thick enough skin and that have the energy and sometimes the money even just to travel, to go somewhere. I mean, the trip that I just took, I didn't pay for because otherwise I wouldn't have gone, right? But but it's, it's, that kind of privilege is very visible. It's like, The D. C. is a very, very African American town. It's a very Black town. Lots and lots of Black folks, and, until you get into the Congressional buildings, and there it whitens up considerably Yucca: Mm Mark: with the lobbyists and the, you know, the constituents that are going not, not universally, of course but noticeably, and it is incumbent upon those of us who have been there. The privilege to be able to engage, to do what we can to improve justice, and to speak for the things that we care about so that they can advance. Yucca: hmm. Mark: So, I could talk about my trip. Yucca: Yeah. Yeah, you were just talking about D. C., so, Mark: Okay, well. So, I got sent on a fly in with the Conservation Alliance, which is a consortium of businesses which was originally founded by REI, the North Face Peak Design, and Patagonia. And they came together to create a unified voice for speaking up for the outdoors, for for wild lands and outdoor recreation. That was a long time ago, and now they have 270 businesses from a variety of different sectors, and what they do every couple of years is they gather a bunch of the leaders of those businesses along with, and they make grants, right? They pool their money and they make grants to organizations that are doing organizing and advocacy for the issues that they care about, and the organization I work for, Cal Wild, is one of those. Yucca: mm hmm. So that's how you were able to go on this trip? Mark: Yes, CalWild was invited to send a representative, and I was selected to go, and so I went. This is not the first time that I've been to Washington to lobby, but the last time was in the 90s. So it's been a while. And everything has changed, of course. I mean, technology has changed everything, and 9 11 has changed all the security. So, it's, it's just a completely different experience. So, so I went and I was going to speak on to, as a grantee, to speak as a content expert about the positions that we're trying to advance. My organization right now is working very hard. for the creation of three new national monuments in California. My organization is limited to California, so that's why, you know, that. But we're also advocating for some policy changes at the administration level, which would affect the whole of the United States. And I should say, you know, we're talking a lot about kind of American politics in this podcast, but if you have a representative democracy of any kind, the things that we're talking about are really applicable to you too. Yucca: Right. Yeah, we're just talking about our experience with our Mark: the stuff we know about. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, the idea here is not to get everybody all plugged into American politics. It's to use that as an example of what citizen participation or resident participation looks like and why it's important. I go on this trip and I go to Washington and I meet with the team and we have a training briefing and all that kind of thing, and my take, we, on the first day, I had two meetings with administration offices with the Department of the Interior and the Council on Environmental Quality of the White House now when we're meeting with staff, we're not meeting with the people that are in charge in those agencies, we probably would have met with the Secretary of the Interior, but it's Climate Week in North Northern New York, so she was away at Climate Week, Yucca: Mm Mark: Um, so, and there was something going on with the Department of Environmental Quality such that we had the staffer that we had. But these are sharp, smart, influential people that we're talking to, and the sense that I got, and then the second day we had meetings with California delegation members both to the Senate and to the House of Representatives, including my congressman which I had a very interesting experience with talking to my congressman's office in Washington, so I'll get to that in a minute. Yucca: hmm. Mm Mark: The main takeaway that I got from, especially from meeting with the administration, was that they want to do what we want them to do. Their, their hearts are in the right place. And they are delighted that we are coming to Washington and talking to people, and organizing on the ground in local communities, because they need the political cover to be able to do what we want them to do. Yucca: hmm. Mark: And in that Yucca: like that's charging them up, right? They want to do it, but they need to be charged with the power of the people. Mark: yes, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Exactly so. And... It gives them something to point to when opponents say, we don't want that, Yucca: Mm Mark: right, they can, you know, they can point to the organizing that my organization is doing and say, well, the people in the community who live right next door want it, you know, the elected officials of the county where the expansion of the National Monument is proposed, they want it. So, You know, those are their representatives and they elected them to office to make those decisions, so why shouldn't we do this? So it's really important to be doing that kind of community organizing and talking to other people about the things that you care about in a, you know, in a focused way. So that was really gratifying to me because, of course, American democracy has taken a beating over the last 20 years, but it's still functioning. Thank you. The elections are kind of messed up, and we could certainly do without gerrymandering and and all the dark money, and I could go on, but as well as the occasional insurrection, which I really, really think we could do without. I walked Yucca: that's not an, let's have that be a singular thing, please. Mark: yes. I walked several times, because the house office buildings and the senatorial office buildings are on opposite sides of the capitol. I walked back and forth in front of where the insurrection took place a bunch of times. And there it is, you know, large is life. And, you know, there are the windows they broke, that's how they got in, you know, there's where they hung their banners, you know, all that. So, that said it was encouraging to see that at least under this administration, There was a commitment to listening to constituents and to hearing, you know, they were very appreciative of the businesses that were represented there, you know, in, you know, speaking up on behalf of protecting public lands so that their ecological values last forever, their recreational opportunities there, all that kind of stuff. Yucca: Actually, is that something you can, I know that we're talking kind of more process here, but for a moment, you were, talking about trying to get more national monuments. Why are those important? Mark: Oh, good. Very, very good question. My organization focuses on conservation of wild lands on public lands. And a lot of Yucca: you keep going, can you define conservation? Because that is a term that has a lot of different baggage attached to it. So what do you mean when you say conservation? Mark: man protection of the land so that it will not be developed in certain ways. And management of the land for the resource, for the benefit of the resources that are there, of the ecological resources, cultural resources in some cases historical resources, and recreational opportunities for people to go camping or hiking or whatever that might be. So, one... One misapprehension that many Americans have is the idea that public land is protected land. And it is not. Most public land in the United States is owned by the Bureau of Land Management or by the U. S. Forest Service. And those have been managed primarily for extractive purposes like logging and mining and Yucca: Oil is big Mark: and oil exploration. Yucca: yeah. Mark: Yeah, very big. So we're advocating for chunks. of undeveloped land to be protected in perpetuity and managed for the benefit of those values. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: That's what a national monument does. Or a National Wilderness Area, which is declared by Congress. We're not asking for a National Wilderness Area in the areas we're focusing on because Congress is broken, and there's no way to get anything through it. the President can use the National Antiquities Act to declare a national monument. He can do that on his own. Yucca: So, by taking , these areas, you're setting aside, you're allowing ecosystems to stay intact, right? So that you can have the populations of these animals and plants or whatever. Particular kind of species you're looking at, they have a place to be, they can continue to play the roles that they would play in a hopefully healthy system and to help manage for that, Mark: Right, and that helps us to accomplish a couple of important things, one of which is, you know, we have a biodiversity crash problem, you know, the, the biodiversity of the earth is the, which is the number of different species and the number of individuals of those species are both on a steep decline. Having habitat is necessary in order for, you know, organization, organisms to live. And but not only that, this is a very interesting one. One of the things that we're advocating for is the expansion of Joshua Tree National Park. Yucca: hmm. Mm hmm. Mark: And the reason for that is that because of climate change, Joshua trees are migrating out of Joshua Tree National Park. Yucca: Interesting. Mark: Over time, they're moving north because it's too hot Yucca: Because it's warm. Yeah. Okay. Mark: Yeah. So, it... Protecting these areas also enables the natural systems of the earth to do what they do in terms of adaptation, right? So, there's a place for the Joshua trees to go as the southernmost of them die because of excessive heat, and conditions become better for them outside of the park to the north. So that's just one example.  Yucca: And may I add that we of course want to protect these for simply the innate value of that being , has any right, as much right to be there as we do. But they also, the functioning system performs ecosystem functions, which is like cleaning the water and the air that we all breathe. So it's, it's not just that, oh, we like there being lots of animals and plants and fungi. It's that there needs to be. these plants and fungi and animals for life as we understand it to continue to function, Mark: right, exactly. And that requires, because everything is so fragmented now, it requires some level of active management in order to protect from invasions by invasive species, for example, which will wipe out all the biodiversity. Yucca: right? Or in my area of the world where we're missing keystone species, so we're missing whole ecological roles, there used to be these animals that aren't there anymore, and if you just take your hands off and you don't touch it, you fence that area off, that area will starve, quite literally, right? If you don't, if humans don't try, because it's kind of like the voting. No management is management. Mark: yes. Yucca: Right? It is a choice that we're making as well. And so we have to really be thoughtful about and understand the systems that we're dealing with. Mark: right. And there is so much science. I'm not saying we know everything, because we don't. There's an awful lot that we don't know, but there is a tremendous body of science about how to manage lands in order to improve biodiversity at this point. Yucca: And we're getting better at it. Mark: One of the things that we who work in the conservation sector, in the environmental sector, actually need to fight against within our own ranks is the group of people who still advocate for putting a fence around things and leaving it alone. Yucca: That's why I asked you a little bit about how you are using the term, because where I am, the term has been kind of changing a little bit, where we have kind of two different camps, which are the restorationists and the conservationists. And the conservationists are the people who, who are, you know, an anti gras, who are like, don't touch anything. Don't just fence it off. Don't know people know nothing. And then you've got the people who are going, well, let's look at the way the whole system works and maybe we do need to, you know, one, let's not keep kick the people off. 'cause you know, It's been here for 20, 000 years. But also, like, what, you know, what about the animals? What do we do for the, you know? So that's why I was kind of asking a little bit about that terminology there. Mark: here's a great example in California. There were devastating wildfires. that ran through Sequoia National Park. And in Sequoia National Park are the giant sequoia trees, these, you know, huge, vast, amazing, amazing Yucca: Amazing. Mark: awe inspiring. Well, because humans had been suppressing fire in those forests for a hundred years, when that wildfire ripped through, it burned much, much hotter than it ever would have otherwise, and killed a lot of those trees. Now, there's a big debate. The Park Service wants to replant seedlings of giant sequoias. in the burned area. And there are environmental organizations, self styled, that are saying, no, you can't do that. You just have to let nature take its course because that's the right thing. But we have been suppressing fire for a hundred years. We have been doing the most invasive, destructive thing that can be done to that ecosystem for a hundred years, and now you say we're supposed to leave it alone? That's ridiculous. You know, reseeding giant sequoias in that area is absolutely the right thing to do in order to keep the species from going extinct. And, I, I don't know, I mean, obviously this is what I believe. Yucca: I'm smiling as you're saying that because I used to work in stand management in the Jemez, and we had very, very similar, like, I can hear the two sides right now and it's, People get, have very, it's very emotional, right, and one of the things that happens, I think, is that people have very strong emotional connections without having some of the background to understand what is happening. And that goes back to what we were talking about before with some of our responsibility, I think, is that we have a responsibility to become informed about these Issues and learn about them and and be able to, if you're going to be involved in making choices about how these If this land is going to be managed, you need to understand the ecosystems that you're dealing with. Because our system, our ponderosa pine systems are very similar in terms of the fire ecology. You know, people become very, people are very concerned about thinning and controlled burns and things like that, and I think that they're coming from a good place. Their hearts in a good place in it, but are very, very misinformed about what the results of their actions will be if we do that. Mark: And there are two big pieces there that I think really are takeaways from all of this. The first one is that they are coming from a good place, but it's a romantic place. And we need to recognize in ourselves when we are romanticizing something rather than basing our decisions on facts. Yucca: Mm Mark: The second is... We have seen a terrible onslaught on the appreciation for expertise over the course of the last 40 years or so. And we need to respect the people who have letters after their names and understand deeply how things work. We need to listen to them. And they don't all agree with one another, that's fine. But in generally, in most cases, there is a scientific consensus. To some degree about what is the right course for these sorts of decisions. And we need to be listening to people that have devoted their lives to understanding these questions, rather than just thinking that because we like trees or we like nature, that we are in a position to make those kinds of decisions. Yucca: hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mark: I'm speaking to you and you're in the process of getting letters after your name. Yucca: I have plenty of letters. I'm getting some more letters, but yes. Yeah. . Well, I had cut you off when you, in your story, to ask you to explain a little bit about the monuments, of why that was such an important issue for you to go across the entire continent. to talk about. Mark: That was a really important question. And as you mentioned this, yeah, it's true. I mean, there are a few reasons that I would put myself into an airplane at this point because of the impact on the atmosphere, but this is one that feels like on balance.  Yucca: Potentially for your lungs, too. Mark: yes, yes, that's true boy, although I came back here and oh my god, the smoke, we're, we're really, we're really buried in, in wildfire smoke right now. So, Going to, and, and, you don't have to go to D. C. in order to advocate for things you care about. First of all, a lot of decisions are local, and you can go and talk with local officials, or organize a contingent to go and talk with local officials. But also, your congressional representative has an office in your area. You can go and talk with them and let them know what you feel about things. Yucca: Well, and state level as well, Mark: state level, absolutely. Yucca: right? And it, you know, it's going to depend a lot on your state. The experience in a smaller, population smaller state it may be A lot easier, like in my state in New Mexico, going down to the roundhouses is super easy you just walk in and there's everybody and you just go up and talk to them. I would imagine in a more populated state, it's a little bit trickier, but it's still possible, right? Mark: The culture contrast between, you know, California, of course, is the most populous state, almost 40 million people and the culture in Sac, yes, between Sacramento, our state capital, and D. C. is really stark. When you go to lobby in Sacramento, If you're a Democrat, you almost never wear a tie. I mean, registered lobbyists will probably wear a tie. But if you just go as a constituent or as an advocate for, you know, one of our groovy left enviro positions, You can wear an open shirt and a sport coat, a pair of slacks, I mean, and, you know, you don't have to hide your tattoos and your piercings and all that kind of stuff, it's great. You go to Washington, it's a suit for a man. You wear a suit, you wear a tie. I left my earring in, but that was my one sort of concession. And and you're right, it's very organized and very regimented in Sacramento, just because of the sheer volume of people that are, that are traipsing through there. Yucca: hmm. Mark: But I, I really, I want to come back to this idea that elected officials are there in a democracy to represent you, and they may not know what you think, Yucca: hmm. Mark: so go tell them. You know, get informed on an issue and, you know, go tell them what you think, what you, what you would like them to do. It's more powerful when you've organized more people to be a part of that voice. And that's why the Conservation Alliance exists. And that's Yucca: many other organizations too, Mark: yes, yes. That's why that's why community organizers exist. To gather the voices of... Individuals into a collective voice that's able to make change happen and that's true in any representative democracy, so it's, it's well worth, you know, you know, sticking a hand in, and the people you're talking to are just people. They don't bite. At worst, they will frown. That's, that's Yucca: wrinkle their brow at you. Mark: Yeah, that's, that's about the worst of it. I didn't have any Republican visits this time, so, we were very welcomed and just very encouraged, and I think there are going to be some declarations coming up here in the next few months that will make us very happy. So it's bringing all this back around politics is How we as a collective society make decisions about what's important, what's not, and what's going to happen. And if you care about your world, and as atheopagans and naturalistic pagans, I believe our listeners do care about their world and about their fellow humans then it's incumbent on us to say so, and do things that make things better. Yucca: I keep having the image of Mary and Pippin sitting on Treebeard's shoulder and shouting, but you're part of this world too! Mark: Yeah, yeah, there's, because there are things in this world that are worth fighting for. Right? Yucca: Yep. Well, we could certainly go on for a long time, but I think this is a little bit of a longer episode, so we should probably finish up here. And we are going into October, and we have some fun, and some spooky, and some great episodes coming up. And Stinky, and all of those great things that we love to celebrate, and recognize, and all of those things, and this great Time of year. And happy autumn, everybody. Mark: Happy autumn! Yeah, Yucca: So, thanks, Mark. Mark: yeah, thank you so much, Yucca. It's a pleasure talking with you, and I'm still obviously really kind of jazzed about this trip, so thanks for welcoming a conversation about that into the podcast. Yucca: See y'all next week. Mark: All right, take care.

Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com.   S4E29 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Mark: Welcome back to The Wonder, Science Based Paganism. I'm your host, Mark, Yucca: and I'm Yucca. Mark: and once again, it is time for us to talk about the autumnal equinox, one of the eight stations of the wheel of the year of holidays. Yucca: That's right. It just keeps turning and turning. So here we are. Mark: Here we are once again, you know, looking at The, the the calendrical arrival of autumn anyway. I mean, I I'm pretty clear that I'm into autumn here where I am already, and I think you are too, Yucca but, Yucca: though, because the beginning of autumn and the end of autumn are very, very different seasons here. Mark: yeah. I mean, autumn and spring are the transitional seasons, and they things change pretty radically during the, during their extent. Yeah, so, well, we can talk about kind of what tells us that autumn is coming, but we can also talk about the holiday, and what it means to us, what we call it, how we celebrate and kind of its positioning within the wheel of the year and how that relates to the things around it, and all that kind of stuff. Yucca: Sounds good. Well, let's start with names. Mark: Okay. Yucca: So, for me, the equinox, and of course it's one of the equinoxes, but it's pretty clear which equinox we're talking about during this time of year. And it's also first fall or first autumn, Mark: Mmhmm. Yucca: because here I look at the seasons like there's either eight seasons or there's two seasons. Mark: Mmhmm. Yucca: So there's the Because the traditional temperate four seasons, really as we were just saying, early or first fall and second fall are two very different seasons Mark: Mmhmm. Mmhmm. Yucca: But then there's also really, there's just the hot time of year and there's the cold time of year. And this is the transition between the hot into the cold. This is one of those, those gateway or door holidays. For me it feels like we're going from one season to the next and so it's a very busy season. Very busy holiday, very busy season here. Mark: Sure. Yeah, you've got to get everything prepped and everything buttoned down for, for a cold winter. Yucca: That's Mark: Yeah I call this holiday Harvest. And of course it's not the only harvest holiday, but this, this is the time when kind of the cultural imagery of cornucopias and all that kind of stuff really, you know, starts to pop up in all the media and all of the winter vegetables are producing abundantly out of people's gardens and the earlier vegetables are pretty much petering out at this point. The, the grape crush. The grape harvest and crush is happening right at the point of the equinox, it starts usually in August but it extends, what happens is the whites get harvested first, and then the reds, and then there are what are called botrytis vines, which have the botrytis fungus growing on the berries. And they create so they, they sort of shrivel and they get very, very sweet and concentrated in flavor. And those are used to make dessert wines and ports and things like that. So there's this, you know, there are several phases to the grape harvest and crush. And it's just... It's a lovely time. The leaves are changing in the vineyards and and in some of the trees around here, and there's a feeling of industriousness Yucca: hmm. Mm Mark: uh, you know, people have gone back to school, they've gone back to work, all that summertime playing is pretty much over now so there's just, it's just a, as you say, it's a very busy time, but it's also a very lovely time and so I call it harvest. Yucca: Yeah. And neither of us are in areas where we have lots of broadleaf trees that are churning, but I have a few here and it's just so lovely. to see the, to see them changing and watch that, that very traditional fall look start to, to start to happen. And there's a, there's a smell to it too. There's this very lovely crisp smell that comes with the changing of the leaves. So, do you smell the Like, when the crush is happening, is there a, you smell that in the air, Mark: If you, if you drive around the country roads, it smells like rotting grape juice everywhere. It's, Yucca: you like? Mark: I do. It's a, it's a it's a sort of quasi wine smell. It's not quite there, but it's working on it kind of smell. And you know, and there are truckloads. So grapes going by and, you know, farm equipment all on the roads and all that kind of stuff. We do have a lot of broadleaf oaks here. We have a lot of valley oaks and California coastal oaks and black oaks.  Yucca: Do they change during the autumn? We have a, we only have a few oaks here, we have these little scrub oaks, and they hold on their leaves, really, they, they really hold on to them for a long time, and then it's just, they turn brown, and then they're... They, they don't even drop them really till the spring, till they're growing new ones. We don't, and we just don't really have any other oaks at all. So I Mark: Huh. Yucca: do all oaks do that, or is that's a very special Mark: No, I mean, there, there, there are what are called live oaks. There's California live oaks here, too, and the live oaks, they don't drop their leaves at all and and they're kind of unpleasant to be around because the edges of their leaves are prickly. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So, you know, you end up walking on them and it hurts. We had one in the last place that I lived, we had one outside of our yard that leaned over into our yard and dumped huge numbers of those sharp pointy leaves into our yard every year. Yucca: If they don't want to be eaten, Mark: no. Yucca: that, yep, Mark: And they have adapted ways to prevent that from happening. Yucca: yeah. Mark: So, but yes, the, the oaks do change, except for the live oaks, they do change and they do drop their leaves. But they don't turn red and yellow, they just turn kind of a rust color. And that then eats in from the outside of the leaf into the, into the center of the leaf and then it drops. And I particularly love the look of the oak trees in the late autumn and winter. Yucca: hmm. Mark: Because they're so crabbed and Halloween y and, you know, wonderful in the shape that they have. And, you know, there's just such a stark sort of gothic quality to those trees when they've dropped their leaves. Yucca: Mm Mark: Um, So yeah, harvest. And thematically, that really is kind of the centerpiece of how I think of this time. It's, it's a good time for feasting with friends and relations. Sometimes I think of this as pagan Thanksgiving. And, of course, Canadian Thanksgiving is right around this time. They have it figured out much better than, you know, late November. I don't know who's, I don't know who's doing harvest celebrating in New England in late November. That, that just seems a bit off to me.  Yucca: Well, I suppose you have all of your harvest in at that point, right? You're not in the process of harvest, you've gotten everything ready, Mark: historically that first event almost certainly didn't happen in November. It just got declared as a holiday by Abraham Lincoln some, you know, century later. Or quite a bit more than that actually. Fourscore and seven years ago plus. The, so I think about this not only as a time for, you know, coming together with loved ones and feasting, but also to reflect on what the last cycle has been like and what the fruits of that have been, of the cycle of the last year, what I've invested my energy in, and my creativity, and, you know, what I've had hopes for, all those, all those dreams and aspirations and plans, you know, that happened around the February Sabbath and And the, the spring equinox, you know, those got implemented, and there was a lot of work involved, and all this energy got invested, and all that kind of stuff, and then now is the time when it's like, well, how did that work out? What, what actually emerged? Oftentimes it turns out that what emerges as a harvest from your year is not what you planned to, to have happen. And that... That's a very useful exercise, I think, that this holiday really lends itself to a lot of gratitude and appreciation for living, which I think is true of all of the holidays, but this one particularly, I think, is really a life is good kind of holiday but it's also a time to think about what didn't work out, you know, what, what crops did you plant that did not come up you invested OK, And why? What lessons did you learn? Because maybe it's just that that sort of thing is not really the sort of thing for you, Yucca: hmm. Mark: or maybe it's that it was just a bad time for it and you can take another crack at it later. But, you know, Part of learning is assessing how things have performed. Yucca: Mm Mark: And it's interesting that we, we have a society, the economy of which is built around all these performance metrics all the time and annual performance reviews and, you know, all that kind of stuff for, for people who work. Yeah. But we don't do that very much in our personal lives very often, Yucca: hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Are you still there? Mark: and I think it's, it's helpful to reflect, not in a self critical way, but in just a, you know, sort of transparent and open minded way to take a look at, well, what was I trying to accomplish this year? What were the strategies that succeeded? What were the strategies that failed? What has, what is the result? What is before me now? And what does that tell me about The next cycle, what, what I would consider doing next. Yucca: Yeah, I think that's really important, and having, I think that's something that we should be doing throughout our life, but that it's very useful to have a time that is dedicated to thinking about that in particular, right? And that's one of the really lovely things about the Wheel of the Year. And, you know, next month we'll be talking about the death stuff and all of that, and then, you know, getting into the dark part of the year with the real deep self reflection and it's just lovely to have, to have it sort of built into life that, oh yes, this is when I come to this time and do the reflection upon what did I harvest, right? Maybe literally and in terms of a metaphorically. Mark: Yes. Yeah, I agree. I mean, that's one of the things that I find very beautiful about the pagan practice of the Wheel of the Year is that it, it programs for us the kind of good human habits of thinking about certain things at certain times of the year and remembering to be grateful and, you know, all, you know, Remembering to to pay attention and you know, to be frank in our, our assessment of ourselves and, you know, looking at, at who we are and how we behave all that kind of stuff. I, I just, well, I wouldn't be doing this practice if it wasn't very, you know, moving and meaningful to me but it really is and that's one of the main reasons that it is. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And another thing that I do that I should mention because I always. But in a plug for it is that, and I've spoken about this many times on the podcast before, that I think of the Wheel of the Year as metaphorically embodying the arc of a human life. So with birth you know, with, so, sort of, conception at at the winter solstice, and then, you know, birth at the February Sabbath. And then, kind of toddler childhood at the spring equinox, and young adulthood at May Day, and then kind of full adulthood, and then middle age, and now this comes around to the time of the elderly. This is the time when, because that's the time of life when you look back and you realize, you know, what did I, what did I achieve? What's, what, what is the harvest that I... What is the crop that I grew in, in my life, right? It doesn't mean that your life is over, that you can't do anything else, but it's a time when most of your years are behind you and you can kind of assess. You know, hmm, I did that. That was cool. I'm glad I, I'm glad I did those things. And it's also a time to really be appreciative of the accumulated experience of people that are elderly, which we don't do much in our mainstream culture. We don't value old people very much. And I really would like to change that. I, I really, I, I think that elderhood is something that should be honored. Rather than viewed as something to avoid through all kinds of surgical and Yucca: and whatnots, yes. Mark: and exercise regimes and diets and, you know, all that kind of stuff that people do desperately to try to prevent themselves from being old. So, yeah, that's another, another piece that I think of here. I think of you know, toasting the old people in the community when you're having your harvest feast. Yucca: hmm. In fact, I mean, I think it was created mostly as a marketing thing, but wasn't it just Grandparents Day? Actually  Mark: I don't know. Yucca: I think it was, yeah I think that's in mid September. Mark: Hmm. Yucca: I love, I, I really love the way that you structure your Wheel of the Year and the different stages of life. And I really appreciate seeing, sometimes in the Facebook group or in other groups, people will share their different approaches to the Wheel of the Year. And I also assign different meanings. to the different seasons, but I have a slightly different approach. So when I'm looking at the seasons, I look at different components of the ecosystem, or large ecosystems, like the grasslands or the forests. And for this time of year, It is a recognition of the decomposers and the microbes the fungi and the bacteria, because this is the time where, this is the only time of year that you're going to be able to walk around in the forest and see mushrooms, first of all, because it's just too, too hot and dry during the rest of the time of the year. We have lots of types of fungi, but in terms of seeing, like, there's your bright red mushroom, don't touch that one, right, like, that's only going to happen. This time of year and really up in the mountains but this is also when for temperate climates, the, the fungi are just getting going, right? They're really doing their work. We forget that the mycelium, it's all down below the debris, the leaves that have fallen and the old plants that have died down, and they're down there. This is their feast, right? They're getting ready to start decomposing, and they'll be working all through the autumn and the winter into the spring breaking that down, and returning it into a form that then life uses again. And the bacteria, and it, it leads quite nicely into, the next season for us is about, is the ancestors. Everything that came before, and of course we start first. We go far enough back and our grandmothers were microbes, right, and so it kind of is this nice lead into that. So we, we really like to be thinking about that sort of on an intellectual level. And recognizing that, you know, we're making some of our pile, you know, compost piles and things like that. Of course, we do that throughout the year, but this is when it's going to be sitting and doing that. Mark: Mm hmm. Mm Yucca: And then, as I was saying at the beginning, that we sort of see there being two, either eight seasons or two seasons. And this is the, this is the beginning. of the cold time of year. But not quite. The days are still hot, but the nights have a chill in them, right? The wind, we're closing the windows at night and we can kind of, it feels that chilly in the morning, and you might have to, you know, in the morning you've got to, for the first half of the day, maybe have a sweatshirt on, and then you take it off by the end of the day, and you're like, oh, it's so hot. But there's just so much that It's clear now winter is coming and you've got to get ready for winter, and it's lovely to watch. Where I'm sitting right now, I'm looking out, and I'm seeing we have jays and squirrels, and they're doing their, that industrious feeling you were talking about. They're out there right now, getting... Plump, and we've got our, we have a little bear family that lives nearby, and you can see they're trying to get all plump as well, and and so that's what we're doing, too, is going, okay, well, the cold's not here, but what do I need to have ready when the cold does come, because there's just certain things you can do at one time of the year and others you can't, right? So there's some flashing that I need to put on some of my windows. That's not going to stick once it gets cold. That has got to happen before the cold comes. It's time for us to change the angle on our solar panels and to open up the, the shade cloth on the greenhouse to let the heat in. And so it's just a time of making lists. And making sure, okay, before the winter comes, does everyone have hats? Do we all have hats? Because it's a, it's a hassle to need a hat and not have it. What about boots? Because when the mud comes, we're gonna want those boots, right? And it's, there's, there's a, it's one of the two big prep times of the year, right? There's the spring prep and there's the fall prep. And I like to do like a big, lots of people like to do spring cleaning. I like to do a fall cleaning before we're gonna be inside for... Months and months. And so that's sort of the other side of the harvest, right? Like there was this whole year that happened, but now there's the whole half that's going to happen. And how am I going to prepare for that? Not in the the growing way. It's not the starting new projects kind of way that is in the spring, but it's the being ready for and prepared, sure that everything is, is buttoned up and finished up and that there's no, you know, we haven't missed any loose ends or anything like that. Mark: mm hmm, and if you have outdoor projects, you gotta get those finished Yucca: Absolutely, yep. Mark: before, because you can't bring them indoors, and you gotta get it done before it starts to rain and then snow, Yucca: Right. And I mean, and there's some that, there'll be a few projects that are much more pleasant to do when it's cold. But there's things that have to get done to have that prepped to be ready to do it. So there's just a very, it's a thoughtful time of year. It's another one of those pause and think, Mark: mm hmm, Yucca: be prepared times. And, and for us, these are our specifics of the way that, that Our climate is, but each climate is going to be a little bit different and so for some people, maybe this is, right now, that's not when it's happening, because that's not when the seasons are quite changing. For some people, the seasons are changing earlier, or later, or, you know, what you're going to be doing if you're getting ready for a winter in Wisconsin is very different than a, you know, a winter in Southern California. Mark: yes, because they hardly have winter in Southern California, oh no, it's freezing, it's 70 degrees, Yucca: Well, but that's the thing, like there's, that each climate is going to be different, and it's not, it's not less valuable to be in one climate versus the other. What's happening in your climate, some of those themes may be still happening, but what that holiday means to you in Southern California may be somewhat different. different because that, it might be a little bit more appropriate to have that sort of prep time happening at a different time of year. Or maybe it's not quite as intense, right? For me, it's really an intense time period, we've got these few weeks, and it's gotta happen in these few weeks. For somebody in a climate that doesn't have quite as huge swings as mine does, Maybe it's something that you spread out more throughout the year, and you think about a little bit each you know, maybe each full moon or something like that instead of, boom, it's, it's fall, right? Mark: Yeah. Yeah, that, that, that completely makes sense to me, and I even think about how... In a very, you know, very temperate climate like Southern California, you know, if you're, if you're in the coastal area, for example, it may even be like an opportunity to do things that most of us associate with the summertime, because like the beaches aren't going to be nearly as crowded as they were in July and August, right? So, as the weather cools off, you might be able to get a little bit more privacy and, you know, time to yourself and stuff at a beach. Yucca: Mm hmm, yeah. Mark: Yeah, so, as always, we are really interested to hear what how you're celebrating the holidays, our readers. You can reach us, or, sorry, listeners, what am I saying? You can reach us at thewonderpodcastqs at gmail. com, and we always appreciate getting your emails. We are not going to have a show next week. Because I am going to be flying to Washington, D. C. to lobby for wilderness protections so that's kind of exciting. And I've decided that I'm going to wear a Sun Tree button on the underside of my lapel, where they can't see it, but I will still be wearing it on my lapel in the Capitol when I'm going to meet with congressmen and senators. Yucca: that's wonderful. So you'll still, it still has the meaning for you, you know it's there. Mark: That's right. Yeah, yeah, but the problem is, if I wore it the other way, then it would always be stirring up conversations about what does that mean, and it would derail from the conversation we want to have, which is about new national monuments, BLM's new public lands rule, things like that. Yucca: right. So it's one of those things to be thoughtful about is when do you... So, what are you trying to accomplish, and what do you need to do in each of those cases to accomplish that? So, very fitting for the time of year we've been talking Mark: Absolutely. And actually, as I mention it oh, never mind, the public comment period is closed. Yucca: Wow. Mark: There's a Many people don't know this, the largest holder of land in the United States is the Bureau, it's the the BLM, the Bureau of Land Management. And it does not list in its priorities for land management conservation. It, it lists things like mining, and oil and gas extraction, and timber, and grazing, and all that kind of stuff, but It does not list conservation values at all. So there is a proposal that has been launched by the Biden administration to change that, to add conservation into the mission statement of the BLM so that they will make decisions not only for extractive purposes, but also for the purposes of the ecosystem. Yucca: hmm. Mm hmm. That's Mark: And that's one of the things we're going to be advocating for. You know, it sounds like a bureaucratic thing, but it's really not. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: You know, these agencies are legally bound by their mission statements and and they will make decisions and allocate resources accordingly. So, it's it's an important thing. The, as I said, the public comment period has closed. The public comments were overwhelmingly in favor of the rule. Yucca: That's Mark: They got something like 300, 000 comments, and they were, you know, they ran like 90 10 in favor of the rule. Yucca: That's great. Mark: Yeah, so Yucca: I know my state, I have to look at the numbers again, but my state, BLM is, owns most of my state. Forest Service has a lot of it too. Mark: Huh, Forest Service is the second largest landholder in Yucca: it's more, yeah, it's, it's, the federal government owns most of New Mexico. Mark: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. I, I got to meet your senator, by the way, Kurt Heinrich at an event a couple of weeks ago. Martin Heinrich, I'm sorry and wonderful guy very, very thoughtful, very strategic around climate change and You know, we had a good conversation about public lands management and just good. Yeah, great leader. Yucca: Yeah, well I hope you have a fun I guess fun, a very productive and enjoyable time talking with all, all those DC folks. Mark: I'm gonna get to meet a bunch of atheopagans from the D. C. area. I'm arriving on the 17th and on the afternoon of the 17th. If you're listening to this and you're in the D. C. area, I am saying, staying at the Yotel on on Capitol Hill, and you are welcome to come. I'm going to set myself up in the hotel bar at around two o'clock, and people are just going to drop by and we're going to visit. So, I'm really looking forward to meeting some of our East Coast folks that I haven't met before. Yucca: Great, well give them hugs for me, if they're hug folks. Yeah. Mark: Yeah, I'll ask first, of course, because I know you would. I would too, but... Yucca: Yep. Well, wonderful. Mark: All right, so Yucca: you Mark: you in a couple of weeks. Thank you everybody so much. Yucca: Have a wonderful equinox, harvest, whatever you call it. So, Mark: I hope your harvest has been bountiful. Yucca: take care folks.    

Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com.   S4E28 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Yucca: Welcome back to The Wonder Science Based Paganism. I'm your host, Yucca. Mark: And I'm Mark. Yucca: And today, we're talking about the senses, the other senses in our practices. So, the ones like smell and taste and touch that sometimes we can forget about. Mark: Right. Yeah, I mean, humans are very visually oriented and they're very sound oriented. That, that tends to be the senses that we lead with, those of us who have those senses. And so, Our orientation towards what we do in ritual, what we do in our practices, all that kind of thing, will often kind of lean into those senses because that's what we're used to leading with. But the other senses are also very compelling Very compelling, and can be powerful instruments in changing our consciousness and influencing the effectiveness of our ritual practices. So, today we're talking about that. Yucca: That's right. And before we go much further, we should say that Yes, there are other senses. We're talking about the classical senses, which I think are useful because they are senses that, one, we have a specific organ, which is dedicated to that sense, and it's also about our interaction with the outside world, where we do have other senses like proprioception or things like that, but that's it. Those are a little bit less obvious. Now, not that they aren't important and that you couldn't bring awareness of that into your practice, but for now, we're just going to be talking about those three in the more classical sense. Mark: Yes. Yeah, I think That's plenty. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: We could, I mean, we could certainly dive into other things, but I think, you know, that'll, that'll certainly take up our time. Yucca: which is a fun rabbit hole if you're looking for a research rabbit hole to go down is how do we define senses and all of that stuff is delightful. Mark: Sure. Okay. Yucca: Now, let's start with, with smell, right? I think that's a good place to start.  Mark: Smell is a particularly powerful emotionally evocative sense. Our olfactory receptors are hooked pretty deep in our brains. You know, when you think back to, I mean really back to our earliest ancestors, the single celled organisms, they were able to detect the chemical nature of what surrounded them and move away from what was harmful, move towards what might be food. That is, in essence, smell. That, so that, that sense has been coded into us from the very beginning, and in fact we've lost a lot. Of what we used to have in the way of smell in, in the way of, of the olfactory scents but it's still very powerful for us and it's very influential over our mood. Yucca: It is, and it's one of those that is often hanging out in the background that we're really not conscious of, sometimes if there is a strong, potent smell, but we often start to tune smells out, even though they're there, they're there. And we don't think about them consciously, but they are influencing our mood and our, how we feel about things, and I'm guessing that most people listening, that if you have a sense of smell, that at some point in your life, you've encountered a smell. And all of a sudden you're just, memory wise, just back at some previous scene in your life, right? The smell of walking into a coffee shop or the, you know, cigars and you're sitting on your grandpa's lap again or something like that, Mark: Mm hmm. Yes, exactly. And the, the challenge in some cases with really cultivating that sense and its ability to influence our mood is that we have some social rules around acknowledging smell. There are a lot of smells that we're like supposed to pretend are not there Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: because it's embarrassing for people or, you know, whatever it is, or you're not supposed to be critical of how somebody's house smells, that kind of thing. Yucca: And humans are not supposed to have any smell whatsoever. We're supposed to... Be completely smellless. Yeah,  Mark: unless it's some goop that you apply to yourself, which has no relation to what a human actually smells like. Yucca: Something that vaguely smells like a flower from the other side of the world, but maybe not, because you've never actually smelled what this flower really smells like. But they say on the bottle that that's what it is. Mark: right. There you go. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I have a natural deodorant that I use once in a while when I'm going to be wearing a bunch of layers. And It's it's scented with ylang ylang. I have no idea what ylang ylang actually smells like. There it is, ylang ylang. So, Yucca: enjoy looking at the bit. The names of, like, when you go through the aisle at the store, and, like, how they will name products, because sometimes it's just the name of a flower or something like that, and other times they just, they just give them these really weird names, like, it's like Spicy Night Out or something, and you're like, wow. Yes. Mark: fresh garden scent. Yucca: Yes. Fresh garden. Okay. Compost? I have yet to see that one. That would be a good one. Mark: that would be a good one. Yeah, compost musk. Yucca: Yes. Yeah. Anyways. You were saying that they're, first of all, acknowledging That the, that these things exist that they're a part of our world. Mm hmm. Mm Mark: so, and, you know, I'm not, I'm not recommending that people suddenly start violating all the social rules around, around scent and smell. I'm just saying that it's helpful to be aware of that so that you can suspend those rules when you're engaging with your practice so that you can really let yourself kind of drift away on the associative memories and that the scents bring up for you. Yucca: That you can be aware of them and make choices once you're aware of that, those norms, then you can decide. A lot of them are there for perfectly good reasons, right? Like you're saying, we're not saying necessarily just throw them all out the window, but you have a choice once you're aware of it, that awareness is the first step. Mark: In terms of practice, I not infrequently use incenses and sometimes I don't burn them. Sometimes I just kind of sit them out because they're, they smell good without burning. I'm particularly fond of the resinous incenses, like frankincense and myrrh and dragon's blood. Those, they smell super sacred to me. As soon as that hits my nose, they're just like, wow, here I am in the temple. Yucca: hmm. Frankincense is one that I use in my house on a regular basis. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. So your kids may come to associate that with home. Yucca: They may, yeah. We use a lot of, of... Synths in the house, and I change it throughout the year so there's some that that's just like the frankincense, that often feels more like of a fall kind of wintry one to me but I still use it throughout the year simply because I love it, but we have a little diffuser that I'll put the oils in And then in the winter, we heat with a wood stove. And since we're such a dry climate, I'll often have a little humidifier on top of the stove. So I've got a little iron kettle that is just for making sure that the house isn't so dry that you get nosebleeds from it, because really, we are in such a dry climate. So I'll usually put some drops of different oils into that. And throughout the year, the It is a conscious choice, but there's just certain smells that just... They just feel like they fit the season better. Mark: Huh. Yucca: And I was, I was mentioning to Mark before we started recording that here, it's really feeling like autumn is coming a bit early this year. Like it's the end of summer, but most years this would still be the end of summer. Right now it feels like the beginning of fall. So I noticed the, the choices that I am making in the morning when I'm putting some little oils in, they're more, they got a little bit more spicy of a. You know, I put some clove in the other day and some things like that and it just, it just changes the feel and the mood of the, the house. Mark: It does. Yucca: think the kids really will grow up with that, right? Mark: for sure. Yeah, there's something about kind of curating your olfactory experience that is, I mean, Here we are. We've got these senses, right? And we can either be just sort of buffeted by the winds of whatever comes along in a literal sense or we can we can make choices about what we choose to surround ourselves with in the way of, of olfactory cues. And what I find is that the, the incenses that I use are so specific, each one is so specific in its felt sense. I mean, I wanted to say vibe. I mean, we know what that means, right? That sort of felt emotional sense that comes up when you smell a particular thing. That I'm afraid I have a lot of them and I kind of hoard them. I mean, I haven't bought incenses in years, but I have them all in sealed tubes and jars and boxes and things like that. Actually, this brings up a little story that came up recently. We were having the Thursday night atheopagan Zoom mixer. And I got to telling a story about this one particular incense that I just love which I said was called Five Grandfathers, and it was made by a metaphysical shop in San Francisco called The Sword and the Rose. And a person who was on the call typed it in and the shop still exists. Yucca: Oh, Mark: And, and they, they make, they craft all their own incenses and they do it in the, you know, in a ritual way and all this kind of stuff. They have oils and all that kind of stuff as well. I think it's the swordandtherose. net, I think is their shop. But it turned out it was six grandfathers, not five. I had just misremembered and the label fell off years ago. But now that I know that I can get more of it I burned some the other day. And it is this incredibly earthy, evocative really unusual it has a couple of kinds of pine bark in it and tobacco and some really unusual things that you don't usually find in incenses and it, it just seems super earthy to me and, and very evocative. The story that the man at the shop told me was that his image of it is of the six grandfathers sitting in a kiva. And I can just see that image so well when I, when I burn this incense, it's so cool. Yucca: Oh, that's one I can, I'm just imagining what that smell might be right now. Mark: Huh. Yucca: We don't have a word for it. Picture, we can't, I can't picture it, right? We don't have a, we don't have a word to say that, right? Mark: Right. Yucca: Because when it's a, Visual scene, I can picture it in my mind, but I can't, we need another word for smelling it. Mark: I wonder if it's possible to learn to imagine scent. Yucca: oh, I, I certainly can, Mark: Can you? Yucca: absolutely, yeah. Mark: Okay. I, I can't imagine it. Yucca: to, okay, yeah. Well, different people have different relationships to what they can imagine and what they can't. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: I know my father doesn't see things in his mind, Mark: Huh. Yucca: right? We've talked about it, but he doesn't. He doesn't dream in pictures, he doesn't see things but feel has a very strong physical awareness of how spaces feel, right? I haven't asked him about whether he can smell things, but I can smell and taste things the sensation of a touch of something, right? Like I can imagine petting a big fluffy dog right now, and it's a very strong sensation, right? And I can, I can smell the smell of the dog's breath, right? Dogs have that very distinctive, they're stinky, but it's like you still kind of like it anyways. You're like, oh, you're such a sweetie, right? Like that happy dog breath. Mark: Huh. Yucca: Like, that's just very visceral, and we just, I think our language lacks words to really talk about those sorts of experiences in the same way we can talk about visual things. Mark: Yes, yeah, I, I really think that's true because what smell evokes in us is a felt sense, sort of an atmosphere or a, you know, what some people call an energy or a vibe, right? Yucca: It's a body awareness, but it's not body in the sense of, I don't, it's not something I'm experiencing with my hands it's not something I'm experiencing with my eyes, but there's a, there's something much more primal about the experience. Mark: yes. And I, and I agree with you that we don't have good language to describe those kinds of sensations. Like, like the feeling of shame, for example, when you're suddenly embarrassed by something. There is a very definite felt sense in my chest when that happens. And it's a physical sensation. It's not just an emotion. It's a physical sensation in my body, but we don't have words for those kinds of things. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: Yeah. So scent very powerful very useful in rituals for creating a sacred space. You know, and it, and a little goes a long way. I mean, I've, I've been to rituals where there were great fuming braziers of incense and it kind of smoked me out and, you know, had to leave early. Yucca: It can be such a challenge because that's one where people experience it so differently, right? What is a small, a strong smell to you may not be to somebody else. And what emotional state people are in is going to influence how much they can perceive it or not. We'll talk more about this with taste as well, but taste and smell are very connected. When we're a lot around really loud noises and vibrations that can change how we perceive it, right? When, and I'd have to go back and find the original sources on this, but my understanding is that when we are in airplanes, with all of the noise and the vibrations, we don't actually taste as well as we do when we're in a calmer setting. Mark: That's interesting. Yucca: that Mark: That explains airplane food. Yucca: right, that if you eat that same food on the ground when the engines are off, you will have a very different experience of it than when, I don't know how loud it is in an airplane, but it's... Mark: It's Yucca: loud. It's loud, right? Mark: Yeah. And it's kind of amazing that the brain is able to, in many ways, kind of filter that out. It resets your baseline, so you're able to have conversations with people and so forth, despite the fact that there's this very loud noise going on. Yucca: I find I get exhausted. I can sleep very easily on airplanes because it is just so except if I have to sit by the window and then I can't not look out the window the whole time. I do not have the money nor do I want to spend the fossil fuels to do this, but I would be the person that If those weren't an issue, we'd just buy tickets just to sit and look out the Mark: And look at the, look at the landscape, look at the clouds. It's, it's amazing. Yeah, I'm, I'm taking a red eye to Washington, D. C. in a couple of weeks and I'm, I don't sleep well on planes, so I'm really not looking forward to it. Yucca: Well, maybe you'll have to listen to some good podcast or something like Mark: Yeah, yeah. You know of any? Yucca: So some, you're talking about using scents intentionally in ritual, Mark: Right, Yucca: So, so one thing that we can do with scents, and this applies to any of the other senses as well, is we can purposefully associate them with things Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: and be our own little Pavlov's dogs. Where if we want to invoke a sense of comfort or something like that, we can, when we get into that state, bring out the thing that has that smell. Right? Like, I'm thinking, for instance, of like a lavender pillow. Have you seen those little bags that people stuff lavender with? Well, that's something that you, if you wanted to use that scent, you get into that space, you smell the scent, you think about the scent and you experience the feeling that you have, and you intentionally do that several times and just reinforce that so that your body That's just a clue that you use just to do that. Mark: I have an example from the annual hallows ritual that my, my ritual circle, Dark Sun, does and I introduced this, but I use it every year, but sometimes. I got a little vial of cedar oil, and the reason I got cedar was because for some reason cedar reminds me of coffins. Yucca: Mm Mark: seems like cedar would be a good material to make a coffin out of. So there's this sort of funereal solemn quality, I think, to the scent of cedar oil. And we've used it to anoint foreheads and things like that so that that scent is kind of around during the ritual and it's powerful. It's very powerful. I don't use it for anything else. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: It sits on my ancestor and underworld altar for the rest of the year. I'm looking at it right now. Yucca: Cedar's one that I tend to use around this time of year, Mark: Is it? Yucca: right? It is one that I associate with a late summer, early fall. Kind of, and then as we get into the winter, I'll definitely switch more into some of the piney, sappy kind of smells. Mark: yeah, for sure, Yeah, and maybe this is a good place to transition into taste. Because taste and smell, as you say, are, are very deeply related with one another. I can imagine tastes. Yucca: Interesting. Mark: So, and considering that taste is other than the, you know, the, what, six, seven types of taste buds that we have, all the rest of it is olfactory. So, maybe I'm just, I need to practice imagining smells. Yucca: Well, what if you start with a really strong one, like walking into a coffee shop that roasts its own beans? Mark: I just, I just imagined a smell, ammonia. Yucca: ammonia, oh, that's a, yep. Mark: Dead. Yucca: say that and I've got, right Mark: there it is. Yucca: I can even feel the part of, of my nose where it is, Mark: Where it burns. Yucca: it burns, yeah oh yeah, Mark: Okay. So I can't imagine since I'm just not very practiced at it. Okay. That's good to know. So taste. I have used taste in rituals where in order as kind of a part of induction into the ritual state, into trance, that very present flow state that That is, you know, what we seek to create in ritual space. I've used cues like a single dark chocolate chip, Yucca: hmm, Mark: for example, you know, you put the chocolate chip on the tongue of each participant because there's, there's a way that that flavor, it kind of floods your sensorium with this. Deliciousness, and it's kind of a full body experience. It pulls you into, into being in, in, in your body rather than thinking about other abstract things. Yucca: right? Reminds me of communion when you say that, right? Like, I think that's probably some of what's going on with that, that, little sip of wine, right? Mark: I've used sips of wine as well. Now, under COVID, it's not so convenient because you're not going to have a single chalice. Yucca: That you can, yeah. Mark: just kind of wipe the lip and, and move on. But it could still be done. You could have a tray of, you know, little, little cups of wine and, Yucca: Well, that's, you know, depending on, different churches have done different things, but ones that I have visited, I've seen they have, like, basically the little shot glasses, that there's just a little sip for each person, right? And then they have, like, the little wafer In fact, I visited one once in which the wafers came pre packaged and they're a little, like, plastic, like, thinking of, like, it would be, it sort of looked like the thing that Like, the flight attendant would give you on the plane, like, one of those little cookies. Of course, that's somewhat wasteful, but it's, it was, I found it quite charming, right? It was like, oh, okay, that's a good solution. This was even pre COVID, like, okay, yeah, so, but that's something that humans, I bring up communion because it's, we've been perfecting this ritual thing for, you Mark: Yes. Yes. There, there is nothing in a traditional Catholic mass service that isn't carefully calculated to create a particular mood, a particular set of emotions, a particular worldview. I mean, it's all very carefully curated. And. And, I mean, I, I find, you know, cathedral architecture and Gregorian chant and, you know, ritual music and the simple incense that they use and, I mean, all that stuff is just really amazing as a kind of sensory experience. I, I don't care for the theology, Yucca: I don't like, I don't particularly care for the theology or the message, but I, I I really do enjoy mass. Mark: mm hmm, Yucca: That, you know, that's something my, our father taught us when we were little, like, how to, you know, he was raised Catholic and obviously did not raise us Catholic, but taught us how to go through the movements and everything so that we could experience it. And I just loved the whole ritual of all of it, and the, you know, the kneeling as you go in, and the water, and the pre like, all of this stuff is just, it's so effective, Mark: It is super effective and that's why I reference some of those things in the Atheopagan Ritual Primer and in my book, my first book, the Atheopaganism book, because Because we've been doing these ritual things, you know, for tens of thousands of years, and we've learned a lot, and it's not, you know, these, these techniques, you know, we're not inventing them now. They've, they've been used for a very long time. We're repurposing many of them to create modern pagan rituals.  Yucca: And they were repurposed before us, too. That's the, you know, they came from other sources as well. Mark: So taste it is traditional in many pagan denominations, I guess I'd call them, or paths that cakes and ale is a a segment of the ritual that takes place after the main working of the ritual. In the structure that I've proposed which is arrival invocation of qualities. Deep working or deep play or working, gratitude and then benediction the cakes and ale or sharing a ritual meal piece happens during the gratitude phase because we're grateful to eat and it makes our bodies happy to food into them. So that, that's another thing where. You know, you pass bread or cookies or, in some cases, meat depending on who's doing it and what time of year and all that kind of stuff. Yucca: hmm. Yeah. Outside of a formal ritual, something that I like to do when I go in my own land, when I'm just hanging out and being like, hey! Friendry. But when I go somewhere that, like on an adventure with the kids a couple months back we went into the Carlsbad Caverns and things like that, is to actually taste the air. Now, that's again mixing in with the smell as well, but there is a very, places have really distinctive tastes, and you can take a deep breath in, kind of, it makes me imagine like the wine tasters and it's kind of the same way that you might taste the wine in your mouth and like move it around and all of that. You can do that with the air and taste it. the back of your, on your tongue, in the back of your throat. And every place is very different, Mark: Hmm. Yucca: right? It's a little, it's subtle, right? Because it's not the same as like putting a chocolate chip on your tongue. But, but the taste of a city and different cities have different tastes, right? And I'm not talking about putting things literally in your mouth other than the air. In some places that might be perfectly safe. If you're in the middle of a forest and you want to taste a pine needle, that's probably fine. Other places you might not want to pick up a rock and taste it because it's got diesel on it or something like that. But experiencing the environments that we're in on a, consciously choosing to experience them on a level that isn't just site, I think, can really help us. Actually, I did a video on the YouTube channel about that a couple weeks back.  Mark: Go check that out. Yucca: but yeah, that's there. So, I think that that really helps to connect with the places where we are and slow down a bit, Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: right? Because the more that we're experiencing things, the more new and novel things, the slower the time becomes. Your awareness of that. So a lot of this talk about how, when we were little, it seemed like our childhoods took up so much more time in our lives, and now the older we get, just the faster and faster time goes. But I've found that this is something I've been working very consciously on, is trying to slow that down. and going, I can't actually signif like, I don't really get to choose how many years I actually get to be alive for. I can, you know, make certain choices that will help me to live longer, but, you know, I could be in a car accident tomorrow. But what I can do is I can experience the moments that I have more deeply, and doing things like pausing and tasting the air, or really smelling the environment. around you, I have found really helps to get back a little bit of that stretched out time the way it felt when I was a child. Mark: Huh. Huh. Yeah, I can really see that. And that brings us to touch, which is kind of an entirely different thing. And I, I think the reason it's a different thing is that when we breathe in a scent or we taste something, we do not yet consider it to be a part of ourselves. It's something that's in the process of becoming part of ourselves by being breathed in or by being ingested, but it's not us yet. Whereas touch is very intimate. Because it's engaging with our skin, which is us. Does that make sense? Yucca: Does, I mean, when we, when we're smelling something, or we're tasting something, it's, it literally is going into our bodies. Mark: I know, but we don't think of it that Yucca: yeah like, with smell, it's almost like a lock and key thing happening, Mark: Huh. Yucca: but yeah, there's something different with the touch that, like, I think it's, it's tapping into something a little bit more Like a different kind of instinctual reaction because the touch is, well, first of all, there's a lot of different touch, but some of it is there so that we know, like, get away, don't get eaten so going back to when we were way, way pre pre mammal ancestors, we were just these tiny little worm things we bump into something, oop, don't get eaten by that, go somewhere else Yeah Mark: Yeah, so, Yucca: I think I see what you're saying with that, like there's a Mark: well, there's a question of safety. The immediacy of touch raises the question of safety. You know, am I, am I safe being in contact with this, whatever it is? We, there are ways that things that you breathe or things that you ingest can harm you. They're more the exception than the rule. We, you know, we eat every day, we breathe all the time. We kind of assume that what we're doing in those regards is, is gonna be okay for us. Yucca: right, and the, I mean, taste is there partly to let us know, oh, spit that out, that's poisonous, don't eat that but then we spit it out and it's, it's out, it's gone yeah, but yeah, the safety, and safety in both ways like, are we not safe, and are we safe? Because again, going back to that mammal side, when we're, when we're born, we're we clinging to our parents, right? We hold on to the other animals because we're a social, we're a social animal. And we're held by and we don't wanna be put down. We'll, we'll make that pretty clear. Mark: When people have a traumatic experience, Very frequently, what's done by emergency personnel is to put a blanket around them. And it's not because they're cold. It's because the blanket provides a feeling of safety. The, the, the tactile experience of having the back of your neck covered and, you know, all of that is, it And I've actually done this in ritual circles where if somebody was having a really hard time, they were, you know, going through an experience because the ritual had brought things up for them. I've, I've actually brought people a blanket and put it around them for, for that purpose. And it makes a lot of difference. So these, Yucca: a weighted blanket that is just amazing for that. Mark: Yeah, my partner Nemea has a weighted blanket too and she loves it. Yucca: Another one, this is a little bit more, more extreme than a blanket, but it's a squishbox. If you ever feel like you really, really just, you just really need to climb into a hole you can make a box that is big enough for you to get in, so maybe, you could also do this with a bathtub if you happen to have it, and just fill it with blankets or, you know, pillows and things like that, and you just get in it between all of those things. That stuff, and you just feel squooshed and safe and surrounded. Because sometimes when you feel like, I want to be in a hole, being in the hole is the best thing that you can do for that feeling. So, probably you don't actually have a literal hole, so you can just make one, right? Mark: Well, and, and I've seen memes, I mean both of us are neurodivergent, obviously in different ways because everybody's different but I've seen memes from particularly people on the spectrum where that sort of being crushed feeling is very comforting. It's like it keeps you from flying apart. In some way. And so, you know, just kind of a bear hug from a trusted person can give a similar sort of, you know, squash me until I'm safe sort of feeling. Yucca: yeah. Oh, I just love that name, Bear Hug, too. It just makes me think of, that was something that I remember as being a little kid, is I would ask for the bear hug, I want the bear hug, and they go, rrrrr, give the growl, and the big hug, and with the, you know, the big arms of the parents. So, yeah, those things, those never, you know. Talking about how short, it's amazing how short our childhoods are, but how that never leaves us, right? Even though a lot of times we don't, we don't remember most of our lives, right? We cannot remember most of our childhoods, let alone our adult lives, and yet it influences us so much. Mark: Yes, yeah, so many of the associative memories we were talking about was sent and so forth. So many associative memories that pop into your mind at a random time are from your childhood. They're just, that's, that's when all this baseline stuff was being laid down and we go back to it over and over again. So, so yeah, touch. And I have used. Textured things in ritual like fur or even things like steel wool or like a pet brush, you know, that wire, the, the, the sharp wire pet brush, you know, those kinds of things, you know, if you very gently brush it along the skin or if they brush their fingers along it all of those are, are, Ways of once again, you know, pulling someone into being in their body and being in immediacy and presence rather than the past and the future. Yes. Yucca: yeah. Temperature as well. Temperature's a big one. And you can go either direction with that. And there's some simple things that you can use, like, like those little heat pads, those hand warmers. Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: But there's also the ones, you can get the little cold packs, that they're about the same size, they're for if, you know, somebody hurt their ankle or something like that, but, which by the way, I carry those whenever hiking because if somebody is getting overheated, you can open up one of those packs and have them put it underneath their armpit, or between their legs, and that really helps to start to cool them down faster. Same thing in this. In the winter, do that with the, with the heat pack. Mark: Huh. Yucca: But that's something that you could do in a ritual space as well. Mark: Yes. Yes. All of this stuff. I mean, you know who really specializes in this stuff, who's really, really good at it is the BDSM community. Yucca: Right. Mark: of this is called sensation play. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: And, I mean, they have, they've got feathers, and they've got horse whips, and they've got everything in between. They've got thuddy things, and they've got stingy things, and they've got gentle things, and they've got cold things, and they've got hot things, and, you know, this is all, you know, something that they really narrow in on, you know, dialing in exactly what works for people in, in all those circumstances and People that are on the receiving end of that are also exploring, okay, that works for me. Okay, that doesn't, you know, this evokes a particular emotion in me. So it's all, it's very interesting stuff.  Yucca: Makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Mark: yeah, Yucca: And I mean, so that could be a really good resource, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a sexual experience. Mark: right. Yucca: So that may be the focus in that particular community, but the knowledge could be applied to, to any sort of sensation that you're, that you're intentionally invoking. Mark: Exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, because there are multiple axes of That, that community explores. There are things around power, there are things around shame, there are things around physical sensation. There, as I say, there are these multiple axes that people will explore with one another. And that's all great, but what we're talking about right now is the sensation piece, the touch piece. And yeah, so, I mean, Welcoming a blindfolded person into the ritual circle with a soft caress of a feather on the side of their face. You know, you, you just, particularly if, if they're blindfolded so that they're not depending on visual cues for everything. There's a way that that can really make the body's senses come alive. And then you have powerful experiences of these other sensations that are provided. So, Yucca: the blindfold, sometimes just closing your eyes or having a blindfold is enough to get you to shift to thinking about and paying it to paying attention to the other senses, because they're there. But it's whether we're really engaging with them or not. And then learning to use them, like just a couple minutes ago, with the imagining it when you said, Oh, yeah, I can imagine. I just have to practice it. I think that applies to all these other things, right? We, most of us can physically smell. It's just, do we practice noticing that and refining that? Most of us do have a sense of touch. So how much attention are we paying to it? How much are we not? Mark: Huh. Yeah. And so, I guess, kind of moving towards a summation of all this, this, you know, the senses are kind of a playground. And they, they are very influential over what our psychological state is. And we, as practitioners of paths that we add. Deliberately work to affect our psychological state in ways that benefit us and that enable us to have, you know, experiences. Really, you know, need to look at that. We, we need to be aware of all the different ways that, that our senses can be helpful for us. Particularly those that we don't tend to pay as much attention to, like, like scent and, and taste and touch. Yucca: Right? Mark: Well, this has been super interesting again. Thank you for, for a great conversation. Yeah, this was a good idea. I'm, I'm glad we did this. Yucca: Yeah. Thank you. And thanks everyone for hanging out with us and listening. And we really appreciate you being here with us. Mark: We sure do. Yucca: We'll see you next week.    

On this episode, we will continue our conversation on what expenses may change when you enter into retirement. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Mark: Back here for another episode of the podcast with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth. On Retirement Planning Redefined, we're going to get back into our conversation from the prior episode about cashflow. We went through some categories, housing, work stuff, healthcare, taxes, so on and so forth, on how those expenses will change either to the plus or the minus, depending on our setup. Well, this is the time to talk about the setup. So as we are assessing our retirement expenses, we'll break these down into a couple of categories. So we're going to talk about those with the guys. John, welcome in buddy. How you doing this week? John: Hey, I'm doing all right. How are you? Mark: Hanging in there. Doing pretty well. How about you, Nick? Nick: Pretty good. Staying busy. Mark: Staying busy and enjoying. So we're taping this before the fourth, but we're dropping this after the fourth, so hopefully you guys had a good fourth? Nick, you probably went up and saw family, yeah? Nick: Heading up north to just, yeah, extended family and friends. That fourth week makes it an easier week to get away because everyone's doing stuff anyways. Mark: Yeah, yeah. It's always funny when we have the holidays and we're kind of taping the podcast ahead of time because then drop it because we're not around, so sometimes I get confused on my dates. So yeah, again, we're talking about this before the fourth about what we'll probably will be doing on the fourth. So John, are you on grill duty? Because I know I am. I'm stuck on it. John: No, no. My brother's forcing me to have a cookout at my house, so I told him if I'm providing the house, he's the one on grill duty. Mark: Okay, that'll work.   John: He's visiting from Boston, so he's excited because my other brother's down here and my sister, cousin, and actually the best man in his wedding is married to my sister, so he decided to come down.   Mark: So Marketing 101. So the second you said Boston, all I hear is these Sam Adams commercials right now, "Your cousin from Boston." Every freaking time I hear Boston, that's the first thing I think of. Or Sam Adams beer, I go right there. All through the hockey playoffs and NBA playoffs, I kept seeing those commercials so it's embedded in my brain. But hey, that's the point of marketing, right, is to be those little earworms, so you go out and buy whatever it is that you go out and buy. And speaking of that, that's my transition into the must haves versus the nice to haves. So if we're talking about those accounts, those different categories that we went through on the prior episode, guys, how do those things now play into for our cashflow? Again, cashflow is the conversation wraparound, it's the wrapper of this whole endeavor. We need to break this down. And do you guys do this with clients? Is it something you encourage them to do, because everybody's individual needs and wants are going to be a little bit differently, but do you break things up in the must-haves versus the nice to haves? Nick: I would say to a certain extent, we do. We kind of list basic expenses and discretionary expenses. Mark: So give us some musts. What's the musts? Nick: So obviously housing, healthcare, food and groceries, some form of transportation, whether it's one vehicle, two vehicles. Getting rid of debt. Those are all things that are obviously needs. [inaudible 00:03:02] Mark: Life essentials, right? Nick: Yeah, for sure, for sure. Depending upon the people, some things are discretionary. I would say most of the people that we work for can't afford to have some sort of traveling in retirement. Mark: Yeah, so is two trips a year or is it five trips a year? That's kinds how it starts to change? Nick: Yeah, exactly. Or even a big trip every X amount of years. So like a baseline travel budget of X, and then let's add one of the things that we commonly do is, let's say the travel budget is $6,000 a year from a baseline standpoint, and then every three years they want to do an additional trip of another 6,000, that's one trip. And so we can scatter that in throughout the plan and show them what it looks like and toggle that on and off. And with how we do planning, we can show them the impact of doing something like that and what it does to their plan. So for the higher tier, nice to have. For discretionary expenses, we will use our planning software and kind of show them, Hey, here's the impact on your plan if you want to do that. Because we always preface everything, it's telling people that it's your money, we're not telling you how to spend your money or what to do with your money, our job is to show you the impact of the decisions that you make. Mark: That makes sense, yeah. Nick: So let's arm you with that information so that you understand if you do these things, then let's make an adjustment accordingly. And for sometimes it helps them put into perspective where not everything is a yes or a no. And what I mean by that is, well, let's just say that there's two lifetime trips that they wanted to really do, and so they like to have a bigger travel budget, but really when you boil it down, it's like, okay, I want to make sure I go to these two places. So we make sure that we can accomplish those and make adjustments elsewhere. [inaudible 00:04:58] Mark: Yeah, because the must ... I'm sorry to cut you off, but I was thinking about this as you were saying it. The must-haves, like the housing, the health, food, you're not going to have any kind of discretionary wiggle room. Well, you don't want to. Now you could say, okay, we'll eat less food, or something like that, but that's not the goal in retirement, you don't want to go backwards. So the place typically we do make some adjustments in the cuts are in the nice to have categories. Nick: Yeah, and usually it's almost more of a toggle where even to a certain extent of, we've had conversations where, hey, if things are going really well in the markets and we're able to take advantage and take a little extra money out in years where things have gone well, that's kind of the impetus to do this sort of thing. Mark: Kind of pad the numbers a little bit.   Nick: Yeah. Mark: John, let me get you on here for, besides the expenses we covered, some of the things we went through, what are some contributing factors that will affect cashflow problems that you guys see in retirement? So all these different things, whether it's healthcare, housing, whether it's whatever, give me some bullet points here for folks to think about on things that can, not in a category per se, but like outside effectors, outside influencers, that can really cause us cashflow problems in retirement. John: The number one I'd say, concern for most people going through retirement is longevity. How long does my money need to last? Mark: And that's the great multiplier, right? Because if you live longer, it makes everything else go up. John: Correct. Yeah. So that's one thing we look at, and we do plans. We're planning for age 100, and we'll always get people like, well, I'm not living that long. But the thing is, that's always ... Mark: What if you do? John: Exactly. So it's like, Hey, listen, if you live to 100, guess what? Mark: You're covered. John: Your plan looks good. You could live to 90 and the plan looks good. So we always plan for, we again, overestimate the expenses, overestimate the life expectancy, Mark: And then you don't have to live with your cousin in Boston, right? John: Exactly. That's right. Mark: All right. What else besides longevity? John: Another big one we're seeing right now is inflation. Because with retirement, you're not getting a paycheck anymore, so your ability to earn is now gone. So your nest egg is providing that income for you and social security. And keeping up with inflation, especially the last few years has been a challenge for quite a few people. And mostly I would say for me, I've noticed my food bill has gone up drastically in the last couple of years, more than anything else is really. Because we talked about musts and nice to have, if trips go up, you could say, all right, I'm going to go on a little bit lesser trip, or not go as much, but you know, you got to eat and you got to have healthcare. So those things there are big ones to really consider going into retirement and to be aware of, is the plan [inaudible 00:07:42] Mark: Yeah, a friend of mine, for Memorial Day, we were talking about cookouts earlier, so we got July 4th, you're probably hearing this after July 4th, but how much did it cost you to buy this stuff? So a friend of mine posted a picture around Memorial Day that he bought three steaks, and he lived in the New York area, Nick, actually. And the tag on the thing was like 60 bucks for three steaks. It was like, holy moly. And I know different parts of the country are more expensive than others, but it was just where I'm at, it was like, wow. And they weren't like that impressive of a steak. So to your point, you got to eat. Nick: To be honest with you, I think there's a little bit of ... Mark: Price gouging. Nick: ... ridiculousness and price gouging going on right now from the perspective of a lot of different areas. I just got my six months notice on my car insurance, I've been complaining to everybody about it. One vehicle, no accidents [inaudible 00:08:34] John: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Nick, this isn't a therapy session, right? Mark: Well remembered, well remembered, John, from the prior episode. Very good. Nick: Yes. I drive probably 7,000 miles a year at the most and paying almost $2,500 a year for car insurance. But the crazy part is that, so okay, if it's always been high, that's one thing, but two years ago when I had switched companies, it was about 1,700. So again, we take ... Mark: Inflation. Nick: Do the math on that. I'm sorry, but 50% is not inflation, there's some 50% in two years and it's kind of wild. And then even just going, the area that we're in has been massive growth in this area, but even what the restaurants are charging, and it's just inflation impacts different areas differently. Mark: It's an excuse. I mean, just like anything, we've turned it into excuse, just like the supply chain problem issue. A friend of mine was trying to get his RV worked on and they were like, well, we're still having supply chain issues for a valve. And it's like, really, a valve on an RV, it's been three years. I don't know if supply chain issue really holds in that argument, but if companies are dragging their feet or employers, somebody's just taking long, that's just an excuse. And I think that's the same thing with the inflation. Is it real? Yes. But to your point, are some of these numbers really truly justified? But they can use that, well, inflation's bad. That's the excuse they use in order to hit you with a 50% increase. Nick: Yeah, and I'd say from a planning perspective, because people get concerned about that from a planning perspective, and saying, well, hey, we had much higher inflation last year than we did in our plan moving forward, and [inaudible 00:10:27] Mark: Are we going to be okay to survive it, yeah. Nick: Yeah, and the easiest way that we mitigate that from a planning perspective is we reprice current expenses. So in other words, repricing the current expenses allows us to take that into consideration, the increases that we've had, and then use more normal rates moving forward, which is how you more accurately display that from a planning side of things. Mark: Gotcha. All right, John, so you hit us with longevity and inflation as a couple of areas that can contribute to cashflow problems. Give me a couple more before we wrap up this week. John: Investment returns is another spot, depending on what type of plan you do or type of planning, if some people will really have their income depend on what their portfolio is returning for them. Mark: So we're talking about sequence of return risk, kind of thing? John: Yeah. So if you having a down year and there's not as much income coming in from your portfolio, well that could ultimately affect your cashflow. Or if it's a down year, and we go back to longevity of, Hey, how long is my portfolio going to last, just have a 20% dip in the market, you're going to be a little concerned about pulling out in that period of time, because once you pull out, you know, you realize those losses, and there's no more recovering [inaudible 00:11:41] Mark: Yeah, it's a double way, it's the market's down and you're pulling money out. So the truth that makes the longevity factor interesting. Okay. John: So one more thing on this. This is really important, and especially what we're seeing in the last couple of years where you have some type of plan where if you are dependent on that, you have almost like a different bucket to pull from in a time like this. So you really want to position yourself to be able to adapt to downturns in the market which could affect your income. Nick: One of the things, and I've been having this conversation quite a bit lately, is that previous to last year, for the dozen years leading up to that, rates in return on fixed or cash and cash equivalence was so low, you couldn't get any return on that money, that really people shifted predominantly, or at least in a large way, to take more risks, meaning more upside, so more heavily on the [inaudible 00:12:39] Mark: Well, because the market was going up too. We get addicted to that, so it's very easy to go, well, it does nothing but climb, it's done it for 12 years in a row, so let's keep going, right? Nick: Yeah. And a little bit of that's a circle where it's part of the reason it kept climbing, is because people were saying, well, and not just, but it's just a contributing factor where it's like, well, hey, I'm literally getting zero return here. So inflation's eating away at my money anyways, I might as well take a little bit more risk. And so earlier this year in the majority of our client portfolios, we took some money off the table because now we can get four to 5% in something that has no risk, and that lets us kind of at least take a deep breath, see what's going on, get some sort of return, where most of our plans, we use five to 6% in retirement anyways. Mark: Yeah, that's a good point. You just got to be careful, right? Because we don't know how long those rates will last either, so you don't want to lock yourself into anything too hefty either, without making sure it's the correct move for you. Especially, I'm thinking more like CDs for example. Nick: Yeah. We still target things that are short term, that sort of thing. But for a retiree, even from the perspective of, let's just use the million dollar number, there's a huge difference between five years ago, where if you wanted to do a one year CD and you could get 0.8%, that's $8,000 on a million bucks versus 5%, even just for a year, now it's 50,000 of income. I mean, one is you can't pay your bills, another one is going to be much more comfortable. So for a retiree, one of the sunny side or glass half full part of what we've been dealing with from an inflation perspective, is that at least there's a little bit more return on safer money as we try to re-plan and readjust. Mark: Yeah. No, that makes sense. So one more category here that I want to hit for just cashflow problems in retirement, John, you did longevity inflation and investment returns. I'm going to assume the fourth one's probably just the emergencies, the things that life throws at you in retirement years? John: Yeah, a hundred percent. Emergency funds, it's [inaudible 00:14:44] Mark: Got to have one. John: ... for that, because you just don't know what's going to happen. Mark: Murphy's Law's going to happen, right? John: Murphy's Law's been happening for the last three years. So basically a big one is healthcare expenses, which we touched on as a must have. So big health event could really dip into your emergency funds. Or again, especially here in Florida with the roofs, have talked to some clients and friends who basically were having homeowners insurance issues here, and then carriers are basically saying, Hey, for you to get renewed, you need a new roof. And all of a sudden it's like, what? I just go, my roof's fine. It's like, well, it's outdated, you know, you need a new one, or else [inaudible 00:15:24] Mark: And so they're not covering maybe the full cost or some of the cost, I guess, but they won't insure you. John: I had some friends actually get notices saying, your roof's too old. If you don't replace it, we're dropping coverage. Mark: Oh geez. Okay, yeah. John: So that's an emergency expense. Mark: Definitely. John: Roofs aren't necessarily cheap, so important to have an emergency fund because like you said, Murphy's Law, you have no idea what's going to come up and you want to be prepared for that. Mark: Yeah. No, that's a good point. Nick: The roof thing is pretty wild here too, because a lot of people have tile roofs down here. And depending upon the size of the house, a tile roof is going to cost you, what John? Between 50 and a hundred thousand dollars? John: Yeah, 50 to a hundred grand. Mark: Really? Holy moly. Nick: And so, yeah, and then if you're in a neighborhood that has association rules and all these other things, it can get a little squirrely. So just understanding even little basic things like that, where especially people that came maybe from up north where it's just shingle roofs and 10, 12 grand, 15 maybe, and then [inaudible 00:16:25] Mark: Yeah, I was going to say, my metal roof was like 20, and that was like eight years ago. Nick: Yeah. So there's just things like that where we always very much emphasize having an emergency fund. Mark: Yeah, definitely. All right, good stuff. Talking just cashflow issues, things to consider here on the podcast the last couple of weeks. So if you're worried about the cashflow or you're just worried about making sure your plan is accurate for the time of life you're in, especially if you're one of these folks that maybe got a plan, you're like, ah, I got a plan put together like a decade ago, or whatever. Well, it's not a set it and forget it, it shouldn't be a set it and forget it, anyway. Even insurance policies, sometimes it's very easy to get one and throw it in the drawer for 20 years and forget about it, but all those things can be looked at and reviewed and see if there's a better way to put a strategy together. So if you need a first opinion or second opinion, reach out to John and Nick and the team at PFG Private Wealth. Find them online at pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on Apple, Google, Spotify, whatever the case might be. Whichever podcasting platform app you like, just type in retirement planning redefine in the search box. Or again, find it all online, pfgprivatewealth.com. For John, Nick, I'm your host, Mark. We'll catch you next time here on the podcast. This has been Retirement Planning Redefined.

We aren't able to record a new episode this week, so here is a great interview we did with Michael H. of the Atheopagan Society Council. See you next week! S3E41 TRANSCRIPT:   Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm Mark, one of your hosts. Yucca: and I'm Yucca. Mark: and today we have a really exciting episode. We have an interview with a member of the Atheopagan Society Council, Michael, who is joining us today, and is gonna tell us about his journey and what this community means to him and his vision for the future and all kinds of cool stuff. So welcome. Michael: Well, thank you very much for having me. Mark: I'm delighted to have you here, Yucca: Thanks for coming on. Michael: Yeah, no, I'm excited. Yucca: Yeah. So why don't we start with so who are you? Right? What's, what's your journey been to get here? Michael: Gosh. Well, I kind of have to start at the very beginning. So my name's Michael and you know, I've, I start, sometimes I go by Mícheál, which is my Irish, the Irish version of my name. And that's something I've been using more as I've been involved in the Pagan community. My parents are both Irish and. They moved to the United States in their early eighties cuz my dad got a green card working over there Mark: Hmm. Michael: and I was born in America. And then they decided they want to move back to Ireland then in 1991. So already I had this kind of dissected identity. Was I American or was I Irish? I never really lost my American accent. When I, when I moved to Ireland my sister who was born in Ireland, she actually has a slight American accent just from living with me. So she never people always ask her, are you, are you American? And she's like, I've never lived there. So it's funny that it's kind of stuck with her, but I moved to Ireland and I suddenly was kind of got this culture shock at the age of five and moving to this new country. And my mother has a very large family, so she has like, two, two brothers and seven sisters, and then I've got like 30 cousins. So , it was a big, a big change from AmeriCorps. It was just the three of us. Moving back to Ireland and. It was a very, you know, Ireland, you know, is, would've been considered a very Catholic country, and it's been kind of secularizing since the nineties up until now. But back then it was still quite Catholic. Like homosexuality was only decriminalized in 1992 and divorce was only made legal in 1995. So, I guess the first kind of sense of, of what I meant to be Irish back then was, You know, you learned Irish in school, you learned to speak Irish in school, and this was very it wasn't taught very well, I would say, and I think most Irish people would agree with that. It's kind of taught like almost like Latin or something as a dead language rather than as a living language. So you're spending time learning all this grammar. And you don't kind of develop that love of it that I think you should. I did go to like Irish summer camp in the Gaeltacht . The Gaeltacht  is the Irish speaking area of Ireland, and I kind of became aware of my Irishness, you know, just through being part of all this and also. I would've introduced myself as American when I was little but people didn't really like that. It was kind of a, like a weird thing to do. So my mom eventually told me, maybe you should just stop paying that. And so throughout my I, you know, as I mentioned, it was a very Catholic country. And when I was in the Gaeltacht in Irish summer camp one of the kids said they were atheist. And I was like, what does that mean? I'm like, I don't believe in God. And I was, and in my head I was like, I didn't know you could do that, I didn't know that was an option. . So I kind of thought about it for a while. I became, we started studying the Reformation in school when I was about 14. And then I learned that Catholics believed in transubstantiation and nobody had really mentioned that before. They didn't really teach the catechism very well, I guess. I'd done my communion and my confirmation, but nobody ever mentioned that. We literally believed that the, the body and blood, you know, was that the bread and water? Oh, sorry. The bread and wine actually became literally, And the body. And I thought that was a very strange thing, that that was a literal thing. It wasn't just symbolic. And then we also studied Calvinism and all that stuff. And I was like, then I started to read the Bible and I was like, then it fun, it finally just dawned on me that I didn't believe any of this, and it was kind of liberating. But it was kind of a way of being d. In a very homogenous society too. You could be a bit of a rebel. So I think I was one of those annoying teenagers who was always questioning everybody and having, trying to have debates with everybody about religion and they didn't enjoy that . And so I went through school and I just remember hating studying the Irish language until eventually when I left school. On the last day, I actually took all my. My Irish textbooks and burnt them and I feel I . Yeah. I mean I feel so much guilt and regret about that and I think about that how important it's to me now and that, that was a real shame that, but I didn't, partially I didn't put the work in, but also I just think the structure. Was not there. I mean so many Irish people come out of outta school not really know, knowing how to speak the language, you know, and I think it is an effective col colonization as well, where, you know, you consider English is a useful language and learning French or Spanish, that's a useful thing, but there's no use for Irish in people's minds, which is a, and I find that a real shame and I. could go back and change that. In university I studied anthropology and history because I was very interested in religion. All throughout my teenage years, I was obsessed with learning about world religions, you know, there was a world religion class in, in secondary school. I didn't get into it, but I begged the teacher to allow me to. Into it because I was so interested in the topic. And he was like, fine, fine. And he kind of thought he'd humor me in one class one day and he was like, well, Michael, maybe you could talk about satanism. That's the topic for today. And I was like, well, let's start with Al Crowley. And he was like, okay, maybe he actually knows what he is talking about So, I went, I. I went to the university sorry, national University of Ireland, Minuth Campus. And it's funny because that used to be known as so it's actually, it's two campuses. They're St. Patrick's college, which is like a, a seminary for priests. And there's the I, which is like the secular version, and they're both, but they both share the same compass. So it's funny, it used to be the, the biggest seminary in Europe. They call it the priest factory cuz they pumped out so many priests that sent, sent them all over the world. And it's when you go out and you walk down the corridors, you see all the graduating classes. So you go back to 1950 and you see a graduating class of like a hundred priests. And every year as you're going down the corridor, it gets smaller and smaller and smaller. Until I think the year I graduated, there was like two people graduating as priests. Yeah. So that was, that was a, I decided to study history and anthropology at n Y Minuth and one of the books that I read. Was kind of a gateway into thinking about land and language, which are two things that are really important to me in my, when I think about Paganism. It's a book called wisdom Sits in Places by Keith Bato, bass by Keith Bassell, and. I'm just gonna read a little bit here from the book because he was an anthropologist working with the Apache, the Western Apache, to try and remap the land using the Native Apache words rather than the, the English words. So trying to make a native map and working with Apache people to find all the true, the true names of all these. so this is the quote, but already on only our second day in the country together a problem had problem had come up for the third time in as many tries. I have mispronounced the Apache name of the boggy swale before us. And Charles, who is weary of repeating it, has a guarded look in his eyes after watching the name for a fourth. I acknowledged defeat and attempted to apologize for my flawed linguistic performance. I'm sorry, Charles. I can't get it. I'll work on it later. It's in the machine. It doesn't matter. It matters. Charles says softly to me in English, and then turning to speak to Morley. He addresses him in Western Apache, is what he said. What he's doing isn't right. It's not good. He seems to be in a. Why is he in a hurry? It's disrespectful. Our ancestors made this name. They made it just as it is. They made it for a reason. They spoke it first a long time ago. He's repeating the speech of our ancestors. He doesn't know that. Tell him he's repeating the speech of our ancestors. And I'm gonna just there's another section here, a little, a few pages. But then unexpectedly in one of those courteous turnabouts that Apache people employ to assuage embarrassment in salvage damaged feelings, Charles himself comes to the rescue with a quick corroborative grin. He announces he is missing several teeth and that my problem with the place name may be attributable to his lack of dental equipment. Sometimes he says he is hard to underst. His nephew, Jason, recently told him that, and he knows he tends to speak softly. Maybe the combination of too few teeth and two little volume accounts for my failing. Short morally, on the other hand, is not so encumbered though shy. Two, a tooth or two. He retains the good ones for talking and because he's not afraid to speak up, except as everyone knows in the presence of gar women no one has trouble hearing what he. Maybe if Morley repeated the place name again slowly and with ample force, I would get it right. It's worth a try, cousin. And then he, I'm just gonna skip forward a bit and he successfully pronounces the name, which translates as water Lies with mud in an open container. Relieved and pleased. I pronounce the name slowly. Then I, then a bit more rapidly and again, as it might be spoken. In normal conversation, Charles listens and nods his head in. . Yes. He says in Apache, that is how our ancestors made it a long time ago, just as it is to name this place. Mm-hmm. So this became important to me when thinking about the Irish language because something similar happened in Ireland in the you know, we have all our native Irish place. But in the 1820s the British Army's Ordinance survey came and decided they were gonna make these names pro pronounceable to English ears. And so they kind of tore up the native pronunciation and kind of push an English pronunciation on top. So you have these very strange English Anglo size versions of Irish Place names Yucca: Mm-hmm. Michael: Soin in is is probably better known in English as dingle, but doesn't really have anything to do with the Irish. And there are plenty of, there are so many examples of this and I think when you're trying to learn about a landscape in your relation to a ship, to a landscape, it is important to know the native place. It's something that I think about a lot and I try to learn. One of my favorite writers is named Tim Robinson, and he's well he died in 2020. But I had the opportunity to meet him in 2009 and he was an English cartographer. But he moved to the west of Ireland, to the Iron Islands and also to Kamara. So he kind of moved between those two places. He lived there for more than 30 years, and what he actually did was he went out and mapped the landscape and talked to local people, and he was able to find some of the place names that had been lost over the years that weren't on the official maps, and he was able to help recreate a Gaelic map of those areas. I think that's a really kind of religious or spiritual activity to go out onto the land and walk it. And to name it and to name it correctly. And I think that's what I think my pagan path is in a way. It's to go and walk the land and learn it, what to call it. Cause I think language is the most important tool we have as pagans. Mark: Hmm. Michael: So those are, that's kind of when I started to think about this stuff. I've always been interested in folk. It was actually funny. There was, it started with a video game one of the legend of Zelda video games called Major's Mask Mark: Hmm. Yucca: Yep. Michael: in, in the game, they actually have like a mask festival and they dis they discuss the the history of the festival. Anna was just like, wow, I didn't, I ended up making masks with my sister and we kind of pretended to. A little mask festival of our own Yucca: Mm-hmm. Michael: that you're, you're familiar with that? Yucca? Yucca: Yes. Yeah, I played a lot of it. Michael: Yeah. So, but I guess I really started to think about folklore when when I watched the Wickerman as um, as a teenager. I was probably at 16 when I watched it, and it kind of opened my eyes completely. And we've talked a lot about this in the group. And I. It's watched as a horror movie in a way, but I think I really got into the, the paganism idea of, of paganism as a teenager because of watching the Wickman and just the symbolism and the pageantry. And I also just like the idea. These island people turning on the state in the form of, of the policeman. So that's kind of been something I've that I've really enjoyed over the years, watching that every every May as part of my, my, my annual ritual so, you know, after university, I, I moved to South Korea to teach English, and, but at the same time I was quite into Buddhism. I had been practicing some Zen Buddhism from about the age of 18, and, but not like, more as just a practice rather than believing in any of it. Not believing in reincarnation or anything like that. I just found the ritual of it very beautiful. And I ended up going and doing a temple stay in a, in a place at, at a temple. Up in the mountains and it was very beautiful and really amazing. You know, something you'd see in a movie because the monk, the head monk actually brought us out into a bamboo grove and we sat there meditating just with all surrounded by bamboo. And it was waving in the wind and it felt like a correction, tiger Hidden dragon or something like that. And one of the powerful events that happened on that trip. Doing the Buddhist meal ceremony where we ate in in the style of a Buddhist monk. And the idea is that you do not leave any food behind. After you're, after you're finished eating, you've, you eat all the food, and then when you wash the bowls and they kind of put the communal water back into the, the, the waste bowl, there should be no no bit of food, nothing. It should just be clean water. That comes out of, after everybody finishes washing all their bowls. So we followed all the steps to do that and, you know, some people really, really weren't into it. They didn't wanna do the work of, of being extremely thorough. And there were a few rice pieces of rice in the water at the end and the head monk said to us oh, that will now get, you're, you're gonna cause pain to the hungry to ghost. Because the hungry goats ghosts have holes in their throats, and when we pour the water outside for the hungry ghosts, the rice particles are gonna get stuck in their throats. And a lot of people were like, what? What are you talking about Mark: Hmm. Michael: But I thought that was beautiful because it doesn't, not, you don't have to. It's a story that has a purpose, and that's why, you know, It made me think about the superstitions that we have. And I don't know if I like superstition like these, calling it that. Cause I think a lot of these things have purpose and you have to look for the purpose behind them. And the purpose of that story of the honky go story, maybe for him it is about not causing harm to these, these spirits, but it's also about not wasting food. And I think it, it has more power and more meaning. And you remember. More thoroughly when you have a story like that to back up this, this practice. So I think it kind of made me rethink a lot about the kind of folkloric things that I, in my, in the Irish tradition and that, you know, I think about things like fairy forts, which are, you know, the, these are the archeological sites that you find around Ireland. Like, I think there's like 60,000 left around the country. These, these circular. Homesteads that made a stone or, or saw, or saw that you find all over the country and people don't disturb them because they're afraid they'll get fair, bad luck. The, if you, if you disturb the, the fair fort the ferry's gonna come after you , or if you could, or if you cut down a tree, a lone tree. Lone trees that grow in the middle of fields that don't have a, a woodland beside them, just singular trees. These are known as fairy trees and it's bad luck to cut them down. But I feel like these folk beliefs help preserve the past as well, because, you know, farmers who don't have this belief, they don't have any problem tearing down fray, forts and that kind of thing. They just see it as a, something in the way of them farming, especially in the kind of age of industrial agriculture. Yeah. So it just made, that was when I started to think about how important it is to keep folk belief alive. And I've really, and I really started to study Irish folk belief after that point. And I lived in South Korea as I mentioned. I met my wife there, she's from Iowa and she was also teaching in, in South Korea, and we moved to Vietnam after that. And we lived there for a couple of years, and I might come back to that later. But fast forwarding, we moved to Iowa then in 2013, and I'm teaching a course in Irish. At a local community college, but I always start with this poem by Shama Heini Boland. And I just wanted to read two extracts from it. So the first stands out is we have no prairies to slice a big sun at evening everywhere. The eye concedes to encroaching. And then moving downwards. Our pioneers keep striking inwards and downwards. Every layer they strip, they, every layer they strip seems camped on before. So I, I started with that initially, kind of trying to, as, it was almost like a gateway for my students to kind of look at. Look at Iowa with its historic prairies, which don't really exist anymore. It's all farmland. There's very little prairie land left. I think maybe 2% of the state is prairie. But that idea, that idea of our pioneers strike downwards, and I've been thinking about that a lot as well, that that's kind of a, a colonial look at the land because this land, the American land has is just as camped. As Ireland, and I've been kind of experiencing that more and more. I have a friend who's an archeologist here and just hearing them talk about the kinds of fines that they have. You know, we lived in a town where there was a Native American fishing weir was a couple of hundred years old. It you could kind of see the remains, but it mostly washed away by the time we had. But I did see an old postcard of it from the seventies, and you could see it very clearly. And so just make, and then we always it's become a ritual every every autumn, we go up to northeast Iowa to these, to these effigy mounds, which are some Native American mounds up there on a bluff, just overlooking the miss. Mark: Hmm. Michael: And that's really amazing to look at that and experience and experience that. And you know, I'd love to go back, unfortunately, Shamus, he died more than 10 years ago now, but I'd love to go back and ask him if he would consider rewriting that line, you know, because this land is just as a count on Yucca: Mm-hmm. Michael: and I'm trying to, trying to make sense of that and what it means. As an Irish person living in America, Yucca: Mm. Michael: Cuz we, Irish people are victims of col colonialism, Mark: Hmm. Michael: Irish people, when they moved to America, they just became white as well and had the same colonial attitudes as everybody. And I'm trying to kind of, but you know, there's, there's, there's kind of stories of reciprocation as well. Where during the famine, the Irish famine the, I think, I believe it was the Chota Nation sent Emin relief to the AR to Ireland. Even though they didn't have much themselves, they still saw this. People in need across the water and they sent money to help. And, you know, there's that connection between the Chta nation and the Irish has continued to this day. But I am just trying to figure out what it means to be an Irish person and a pagan living in this country. And that's kind of where I, where I am right now. But to get back to how I got into Ethiopia, paganism I mentioned earlier that I was really into the Wickerman and I found this group called Folk folk Horror Revival on Facebook. And somebody one day mentioned that there was this group called Atheopagan. And so I decided to join and I found a lot of like-minded people. And I've been kind of involved in the community for, for, I think that was maybe 2018. Mark: Mm-hmm. Michael: And I've been involved in the community since then and maybe on a bigger, I've been much more involved since Covid started and we started doing our Saturday mixers. And I think I've made maybe 90% of those Mark: something Michael: and we've, yeah, and we've been doing that for the last three years and it's just been. It's a really amazing, it's one of the highlights of my week to spend time with with other people in that, in that hour and 45 minutes that we spend every Saturday. Mark: Mm. Michael: Mm-hmm. Mark: Yeah, I, I really agree with you. That's, I, it's a highlight of my week as well. Such warm, thoughtful people and so diverse and living in so many different places. It's yeah, it's just a really good thing to do on a Saturday morning for me. And. We'll probably get into this more a little bit later, but the idea of creating human connection and community building I know is really important to you and it's really important to me too. I think there have been other sort of naturalistic, pagan traditions that have been created by people, but they just kind of plunked them on the internet and let them sit. And to me it's. That would be fine if I were just gonna do this by myself. But when other people started saying, I like this, I want to do this too. To me that meant, well then we should all do it together. Right? Let's, let's build a community and support one another in doing this. And so the Saturday mixers, when we, when Covid started, I think. I mean, to be honest, COVID did some great things for the Ethiopia, pagan community. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: yeah. Kind of accidentally, but that's, that's Yucca: Well that's the silver linings, right? That's one of the things we, you know, life goes on. We have to find the, the, the benefits and the good things, even in the challenging times. Mark: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michael: yeah. I think. I'm just thinking back to when we started. So it's kind of, we have maybe six or seven regulars who come to every meeting maybe. And then we have other people who join now and then, but I'm just trying to think back to the first meeting. I think we, that's when the idea of doing virtual ritual began as well in that first meeting. And we were trying to figure out how to do. Yucca: Was that was the first meeting before Covid or was it as a response to Covid? Mark: You know, honestly, I don't remember. I think it must have been in response to Covid because everybody was shut in and, you know, everybody was kind of starving for human contact. Michael: I think the first one may have been March or April. 2020, Yucca: Okay, so right there at the. Michael: Yeah, right at the beginning. Yeah. And I think, I remember in the first meeting we were talking about ritual ideas and I think the first suggestion I came up with was like I'd love to somebody do like a, describe what an atheopagan temple might look. Mark: Oh yeah. Michael: Yeah. And I left, and I think you were recording the meetings at that time, but we don't record 'em anymore, just so people can feel free to be themselves and not have a recorded recording of themselves out there, . But I know that, I think James who you interviewed recently he, he was listening to that one, I believe, and he came the next week and actually had prepared a guided meditation. Of what a pagan temple would be like to him. And it was a walk through nature. I think that was the first, our first online ritual together. Mark: Yeah, I remember that now. Yeah, and it's been, it's really been a journey trying to figure out how, how can you do these ritual things over a, a video conferencing platform. In a way that makes everybody feel like they're participating and engaged. Right. So that there's a, a transformation of consciousness. But I think we've done pretty well, to be honest. I mean, some of the rituals that we've done have been really quite moving. Michael: Yeah. And I think the ritual framework that you've worked at translates very well to. A Zoom conference as well. I dunno if maybe, if he wants to describe that, what the usual atheopagan ritual would look like. Mark: Sure. We've, we've talked about this before. The, the, the ritual structure that I proposed in my book is basically a, a five step process where the first is arrival, which is sort of, Transitioning into the ritual state of mind from the ordinary state of mind, and then the invocation of qualities that are a part that we'd like to be a part of the ritual with us, which is sort of the equivalent in Wicca or other pagan traditions of invoking spirits or gods or what have you, ancestors, what have you. And then the main working of the ritual, which varies depending on what the purpose of the ritual is. But it can be, well, we've done lots of different kinds of things. We've braided ribbons and then tied, not tied magical knots in them. We've made siles, we've we've done just lots of different kinds of things. And then gratitude expressions of gratitude. The things that we're grateful for. And then finally, benediction, which is sort of the closing of the ritual at a declaration that we're moving back into ordinary time. Yucca: So how does that look in, in a meeting, like a Zoom meeting In a digital format? Mark: Michael, you want to take that one or should I? Michael: So you know, you have maybe, I think usually when we have a ritual more people attend that and so we might have 12 people there and often Yucca: cameras on. Michael: Camera's on. Well, it's optional. Yeah. If you don't feel comfortable having your camera on, that's completely fine and you don't even have to speak. We do encourage people just to you know, leave a message in the chat so you can just listen in. You can engage as much or as little as you want. And you, you, so. We have all the people on in the conference, and maybe we'll try and get some more of the senses involved as well. So sometimes we'll like candles and everybody will have a candle in front of them. I do know for for some of our sound rituals. Mark, you've used two cameras where you, you aim one camera at maybe a focus, like what's one of the examples of that that you. Mark: Well we did that both at Sown and at Yu. So both the Halls ritual and the Yule ritual where I would create a focus or alter setup with thematic and symbolic things relating to the season. and then I would point, I would log into Zoom with my phone and point my phone at that. And then, and then I'd log in separately on my laptop for myself as a person, and then I could spotlight the focus so that it's kind of the centerpiece of what everybody experiences on their screen and sets the atmosphere. Michael: Yeah. So just a virtual focus that everybody can, everybody can virtually gather around. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Michael: Yeah. And I think we've also used a Pinterest board in the past as well for people. I think it was at Sound again, we had that Pinterest board where people could put up notes about. Their ancestors or loved ones that they were That's correct, isn't it? Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Or pictures of people that had passed recently or. Yucca: mm. Michael: yeah. So yeah, there's a lot of digital space that you can use for this ritual. We also try not to involve too many props as well. Because we wanna make it as easy as possible for people of all abilities. And just if you don't have the space for something, for a large proper if you don't wanna make a lot of noise, you know, we're not gonna have you using chimes or things like that. So we try and make it as easy as possible. Sometimes we do invite you to bring some food to eat as well, because, you know, a lot of these are feasting rituals. So we maybe, if you feel comfortable bringing some refreshments, you might want to do. And just have a friendly meal with people online. For example, we're actually gonna start doing I'm gonna be leading full Moon meals every month on the, on the, so the first one's gonna be December 7th. And I'll post, post about that on Discord, and I think Mark will post about that in the Facebook group. Yeah. And so the idea is everybody just comes. Joins the Zoom meeting and everybody should have their meal. Whether you're, whether that's lunch or if you're in a different time zone, maybe there'll be dinner or maybe it's just a snack. And then we'll spend a minute just thinking about the providence of the food and then we'll eat us and maybe people can talk about the food that they're eating and what it means to. And I'm hoping to make that a monthly event that we meet every full moon to share a meal together Mark: That sounds. I, I, I really I have pagan guilt over how little I pay attention to the full moon. I'm, I'm always, I'm always aware of what phase the moon is in, but I, I don't do a lot in the way of observances of the phases of the moon. And so, I'm excited to have this added in to something that I can attend. Michael: Mm-hmm. . But yeah, as you can see from that format, it's very simple. And again, you, if, if people listening would like to attend as well, there's no obligation to keep your. Your camera on, there's no obligation to speak. You just, you can just listen in and just feel part of the, part of the community that way. Yucca: Mm-hmm. So in the mixers sometimes ritual, are there discussions or what else do the mixers. Michael: Usually the mixer is kind of a freeform thing. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Michael: Maybe we'll have a topic sometimes, but usually people just come and do a check in and talk about how they're, how they're getting on that week and if there's anything they wanna discuss, we just open it up to that. Depending on the size of the turn, we may require some kind of etiquette stuff. So if there are a lot of people and we don't want people to. Shut it down or have spoken over. So we'll ask people to raise their hands if they wanna speak. That's, that really is only when there's a lot of people and, and often I, I know I'm somebody who likes to talk, so it's a, I think raising hands also gives people who are less confident, or, I'm sorry, not less confident, just not at, don't feel like interrupting. It gives them an opportu. To to have their say as well and be called on mm-hmm. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Mm. Mark: I think it's really good that we've implemented that. It, it's, it helps. Michael: Mm-hmm. I think one of the really cool rituals we had recently was for like the ATO Harvest, so that was when was that? That was in September or October. In September, yeah. Yeah. So. We were trying, I mean, usually it's, you could do some kind of harvest related and I think we've done that in the past. But I have a book called Celebrating Irish Festivals by Ruth Marshall. And this is my go-to book for, for, for ritual ideas. And this is, and I like to. Kind of some of the traditional holidays and maybe just steal from them. . So Michael Mass is is the holiday around that time in Ireland? It's a Christian holiday, but it's also it's a Yucca: were older. Michael: yeah, yeah, Yucca: Christians took for the older Michael: yeah, yeah, yeah. you know, it's about St. And he's known for slaying a dragon as just as St. George was known for slaying a dragon. But I thought, well, let's turn this on this head and let's celebrate our inner dragons. Let's bring our dragons to life. So it was the whole ritual was about dragons. And we actually drew Dragons, drew our inner dragons and shared them. Talked about what they. And kind of we were feeding our inner dragon so that they could warm us throughout the coming winter. Yucca: Hmm. Michael: Mm-hmm. Mark: as well as watching the home. Star Runner Strong Door, the Ator video, Michael: Oh yeah, Mark: which you, you have to do if you've got dragons as a theme. It's just too funny to avoid. Michael: That's an old flash cartoon from the early two thousands. That was pretty popular. Mark: Mm-hmm. Michael: Yeah. Track toward the ator. Google it, and in fact, I did a, I did the hot chip challenge as part of that ritual as Mark: That's right. Yeah. Michael: where I ate a very, very hot tortilla chip on camera. And. It was it was painful, but I'm sure, I don't know if it entertained other people, but it was, it was fun Mark: Oh yeah. It was fun. Michael: So, yeah, they're like, I mean, these rituals aren't all, they're, they're fun and they're kind of silly and goofy and but I mean, I thought at the same time they're very meaningful because people really opened up in that one Mark: Yeah. Michael: and shared some really profe profound truth. That was one of my favorites actually, and I hope we do another, another dragon invoking ritual in the future. Mark: Maybe in the spring Michael: yeah. Mark: you do it at, at both of the equinoxes. Michael: Mm-hmm. Mark: so you've joined the Atheopagan Society Council, which is great. Thank you so much for your, your volunteering and your effort. What do you think about the future? How do you, how do you see where this community is going and what would you like to see? What's, what's your perspective on that? Michael: Yeah, so just before I discovered the Pagan Facebook group I had attended A local cups meeting. So that's the covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans. And so it was just a taro reading workshop and, you know, I was, I, I like kind of using these kind of rituals just for their beauty and, but not, for not, not seeing anything supernatural in them. I was, it was amazing to, to find a group that was interested in these kind of things too, but without the they weren't incredulous. So I guess what I'm hoping for is that as we, as we kind of find more people who are, are, are aligned with us, maybe we can have more in. Experiences. That was one of the great, the great highlights of, of last year was attending the Century retreat and meeting all, all these amazing people in real life and being able to spend time together in real life. And I hope that as we kind of, as the word gets out about this group, more and more of us can meet in person or as we are able to, Mark: Mm-hmm. Michael: That's what I really hope for the future that you're finding your, your people that we are, we are being able to get these local groups together and then spend time on these important days of the year. And I believe the Chicago Afu Pagan group was able to do that not too long ago. And I know Mark, your local group meets quite regularly as well. Mark: We, we meet for the, for the eight holidays, for the eight Sabbath. So yeah, we're gonna get together on the 18th of December and burn a fire in the fire pit and do a, a ritual and enjoy food and drink with one another. And yeah, it's a, it's a really good feeling that that feeling of getting together is just You can't replace it with online connection, but online connection is still really good. So that's why, that's why we continue to do the mixers every Saturday. And Glen Gordon has also been organizing a mixer on Thursday evenings. Well evenings if you're in the Americas. And. Yeah, there's just, there's, there's a bunch of different opportunities to plug in and it's always great to see somebody new. Michael: Yeah, I think that would be another hope as well that, you know, if you've been on the fence about coming to a mixer I hope that what we've described today maybe entices you to come along. You know that there's no expectations and you can, you can share, you can just sit in the background and watch, or you can participate. There's no expectations and it's just a nice way to, to connect with people, so, Yucca: how would somebody join in? They find the, the link on the Facebook discord. Michael: that's right. Yeah. So I think, mark, you post it regularly on the Facebook group, and it's also posted on the disc. As well. So, and it's the same time every Saturday, so it's 12:15 PM Central for me, so, and that's like 1115 for you, mark, on the, Mark: No, it's 1115 for Yucca. Michael: Oh, okay. Mark: It's 10 15 for me. Michael: Okay. Okay. Yucca: one 15 for Eastern. Then Michael: one, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yucca: Hmm Mark: And. Michael: and it's always the same time, and I think we've, I think we've only missed one week, maybe in the last three years. Mark: Yeah, I think that's right. I wasn't available and I couldn't find somebody else to host or something like that, but yeah, it's been very consistent. And I see no reason to think it isn't gonna keep being consistent. But yeah, we, you know, we welcome new people. And if you're not in the Americas, that's fine too. We've got a couple of Dutch people that come in all the time. There's a, an Austrian woman who lives in Helsinki who participates. So Yucca: E eight nine ish kind of for Europe, Mark: Yeah. Michael: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We've even had on the Thursday night mixer, we've even had Australians join occasionally too. So Yucca: That sounds like that'd be early for them then, right? Michael: yeah, Yucca: getting up in the. Michael: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. But I'd I'd love for some of the listeners to come and join us on one of the mixers and then cuz you know, you bring new ideas. And I we're always looking for new ritual ideas, Mark: Mm. Michael: That kind of bring meaning to our lives and to everybody else's. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yeah, cuz that's, I mean, that's what we're doing, right? We're, we're create, we're, it's a creative process for us. We've got these sort of frameworks like the Wheel of the Year and the, the ritual format that I laid out. Although people can use other ritual formats too. That's fine. But it's, it's an ongoing process of creation and of taking some old traditions and folding them in where they fit but creating new stuff as well. One of the innovations that we, that we've been doing for the l past year or so is if people want to be done with something, if they want to be finished with something in their. They can write it in the chat and then I take the chat file and I print it on my printer and I take it and I burn it in my cauldron. So it is actually being burnt physically. But it just takes a little bit of technical processing before that happens. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: And it's those kinds of innovations that are really useful for online rituals. And boy, if you have new ideas about things we can do for online rituals, I, I would love to hear 'em. Yucca: So thank you so much for sharing your story and your visions or the future with us. This has been, it's, it's really been beautiful to hear and to get that insight. Thank you, Michael. Michael: Well, thank you for having me on. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: It's been delightful hearing from you and, and I, I gotta say, I, I feel like our community is very lucky. You've been exploring religion and and folklore and ritual for a long time in a lot of different frameworks and I feel really fortunate that you've landed with us cuz I like you so. Michael: Okay. Well thanks very much. I like you too, Mark: Okay folks, that'll be all for this week. And as always, we'll have another episode for you next week on the Wonder Science Based Paganism. Have a great week. Yucca: Thanks everybody.

Talismans video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML-sED3fAzY   Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. S4E18 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm your host, mark, Yucca: And I'm Yucca. Mark: and today we are talking about talismans and touchstones and things that we do during the course of our day to remind ourselves that we are on a naturalistic, pagan, pagan path and to remind ourselves of our practice. Yucca: Right. And these could be things, we could have objects that help. Remind us but also moments in the day or activities that we're doing that we can use as, as metaphorical touchstones, right? Mark: Right, right. I mean, we've talked about a daily practice before. Those tend to be. In the beginning and the ending of the day, not in the sort of rush of the middle of the day. So what we're really focusing on, on with this podcast is more about what do we do just to bring back to mind that we're on this path and that these are our values and that kind of stuff, while we're in the midst of all the various business that we have to take care of during the day. Yucca: Right. So why, actually, why don't we start with one? You were just telling me about that. This was one of Michael's suggestions who we've had on the podcast before he was on the council. And you were saying it was 13 o'clock. Mark: 13 o'clock. Yucca: o'clock, yeah. So what's this 13 o'clock thing? Mark: Which is one o'clock in the afternoon of course. Michael is Irish and apparently there is something that happens at noon every day in Ireland on the public television stations which is called the Angelus, and it used to be a. Catholic thing with, you know, images of the Virgin Mary and all that kind of stuff. And the idea was that you were supposed to stop and pray or contemplate or just kind of remember, you know, that this is your religious path. Well, it's, it's become much more secularized now. They have images of the Irish countryside and. That kind of stuff instead. But it's still kind of a lovely idea. And so Michael suggested that because we have 13 principles and there are 13 moon cycles, and we just like that Yucca: 13. It's just fun. Yeah. Mark: Yeah, it's, it's a cool prime number. That we celebrate something like that at 13 o'clock every day. And just take a minute. That's all, you know, 60 seconds, that's all that it takes. What I do, I've put it in my phone as an alarm to remind me when it's Yucca: buzzes at you at one o'clock, Mark: Well, I actually get a 10 minute warning so that I can finish up whatever I'm doing right there and have a minute, but at, at, at the stroke of one. What I do is I just grasp my suntry pendant that I always wear, that I got at the Suntry retreat last year, and just imagine that I am floating in space, looking down at the earth. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Watching it slowly turn underneath me and just recognize, you know, as Carl Sagan said, this is everyone you've ever known. Everything that's ever happened in human history, all that you'll ever Yucca: king, every baker, every, yeah, every conflict we've ever had. Right. Every. Mark: event, every birth, every celebration, every cataclysm, all those things are embodied in this little planet floating in space. And so I just sort of meditate on that for about a minute, and then I let go of my pendant and go about my day. But I find it's a really wonderful addition to my practice and it's nice to have a little intercession in the middle of the day. That's about my spirituality. Yucca: Hmm. That's great. I love that idea. That's, that's where noom comes from the term originally, isn't it? Weren't there Mark: I think it, yeah, because it was originally Noce Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Noce, which is one of the. Catholic masses that celebrated through the course of the day. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I don't know what I, I know the first one is Matins and the last one is Vespers. Leys in the middle. Yucca: Yeah. So I think that's where the term is coming from, but I don't know enough about it. I just remember hearing that at one point that that's the origin. So it's a but I, I very much like those. I. And Islam has a, a similar structure of throughout the day having the different, the, just a small ritual throughout the day just to remind us. Right. And I think that there's a lot of, of power in that. Just stop for a moment and kind of have that reset. Right. Mark: Right. Yeah. Because I mean, it's so easy to get caught up in all the busyness of everything we have to do in order to keep the functions of our lives going. But one minute of time just to. Refocus on the big picture I think is really, for me, it's been very meaningful and has kind of contributed to my happiness. So, it's something I'm doing and I really appreciate Michael for suggesting it. Yucca: Yeah, that's fun. Mark: So what are some other things that we either practices or. You know, carrying of objects or keeping them in a, in a, a bag or a purse or putting them in our car. What, you know, other things that we might do to remind us during the day of our path. Yucca: Well, there's one that in my family on my adopted side, my stepmother is having a by the door. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: Which is like a the other versions what might be like a Honda Fatima or it's like a protection against the the evil eye, but it's this beautiful, stylized hand. And the traditional belief behind it was, you know, it's protection from the evil eye. But that's something that, you know, growing up we would always have by the door and it would be something that We would just touch on the way out of the door, Mark: Hmm. Yucca: Not as a belief literally that that's somehow going to protect us. But just as a reminder of, hey, I'm stepping out of the home. I'm going out into the world and just to be more aware. Right. And just to kind of, you know, shields up, right? So it's almost like the button of like shields up right? Going out, leaving the, the sanctuary of the home. And so having something like that and I actually have the one that, that I grew up with in, in my home now, and it's just by the door and it's. It's just a nice reminder every time of coming in and out of the home space. Mark: And does everyone in your household do that? Yucca: The grownups do, it is too high at the moment for these smaller hands, but as they get older, I think they, they will.  Mark: Ah-huh. Yucca: the one that we have is, If enthusiastically touched, could come down and break, so Mark: Oh, okay. Yucca: get a little bit older. Yeah. It's one that's made from broken pottery. Mark: Oh like Yucca: made from broken. Yeah. It's a mosaic made from broken pottery from Jerusalem. So it's, it's really beautiful and I would rather it not get crushed, but when they're when they're a little bit calmer, Then maybe they'll get, they'll get to do that particular one. Mark: Okay. Yucca: So in the meantime, they're, they've got plenty of other stuff to do. But that's, that's a type of object that's really nice. And I, although I don't drive a lot anymore in my hanging on my rear view mirror, I have a little bead that when I get into the car, it's just a, I just kind of give it a little boop. And just as a reminder of, Hey, I'm getting into the car, I'm taking on a big responsibility with the life of the passengers, my life, the life of anyone else on the c the road. And just take a moment to center and ground and then, then be on the way before just rush. You know? Cause a lot of times we're so tempted to get in the car. You've got the keys, you know, you've turned the car on before your seatbelt's even on and just, no, hang on. Slow down. About to drive this, you know, very, very heavy piece of equipment, very, very fast. So let's take a moment. So those are two that I have on a kind of a very practical level, but they, they really have that special meaning, so, Mark: I, I like that. I mean this, this sort of illustrates that you can imbue anything really with a particular meaning if you associate a practice with it. So, you know, just a little bead. It doesn't need to be anything fancy. It can just be a little something so that you you know, it, it becomes a part of your pattern as you, you know, you put the keys in, you put the seatbelt on, you, you touch the bead, you start the car, and it's just a part of the routine. Yucca: Yeah. So what about you? Do you have any other ones that you do? Mark: You know, what I do is I carry I carry some talismans and I've, there's a, there's a blog post, or it may be a YouTube video actually, because I think I did it while my arm was broken and I couldn't type.  Yucca: Think it is a YouTube video. I think I've a long time. It's been several years, but yeah. Mark: Yes. That would've been 2017 when my, when Yucca: I'll see if I can find the link to that and put that in the show notes. Mark: Great. Yeah, so that's about talismans and the ones that I carry and what they mean to me. And what a talisman is really is just a little. Something a little token of some kind that reminds you of something specific. So, for example, I have an Arrowhead, which was one of the giveaways from. A, an earth honoring ritual that we did at Pantheon a few years ago. And it reminds me of the broader Pagan community and also of deep time being a, a, you know, a found arrowhead. So that's one. There's another, that's a smooth stone. That I got at a fired circle gathering, and it reminds me of that community and the, the people that I have in my life that really love me. So I have fi and there's a little mala bead that looks like a skull that is a memento mori. It reminds me that I'm gonna die and that I need to seize the day. So there are five or six of these little things. And as well as the suntry pendant that I wear around my neck. All of those serve to, kind of, to bring deeper meaning to my daily operation. You know, if I reach in my pocket for my comb while there are those talismans reminding me again that I'm on this path and I'm, I'm doing this, and it's more meaningful than just kind of wandering through life without. A sense of purpose or meaning? Yucca: So do you have a, is it. Is that part of a ritual in the morning, just to stick those into your pocket or are they already in your jeans and when you put your jeans on in the morning? There they are. Mark: They're already in my jeans and when I put my jeans on in the morning, there they are. The only time they come out is when I wash my jeans and then they go in another pair of jeans. Yucca: they're, they're switching pants. Okay. Mark: Yeah. But like for example, I bring them, you know, when I'm wearing dresses, Slacks to like a job interview. I bring those with me because they, you know, they're the, the emotional underpinning for me, right? They, they serve to represent all that community support and enthusiasm and history that I have as a basis on which to be confident and put myself forward. So, Yeah. So, and I've been doing this for a very long time, and of course, once in a while you'll lose one. And that's okay. These things happen. And, you know, I, I do a little ritual to charge each one when I first start carrying it, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: To give it its meaning. To associate it with that particular meaning. And I find, you know, this is a very old tradition. I mean, Roman soldiers used to carry little, you know, rolled up lead tablets with inscriptions on them of things that they, you know, wanted to happen for them, or ways they wanted to be protected. And we as atheopagan and, and naturalistic pagans, we can do the same thing. Yucca: Yeah, some of the ones that you mentioned reminded me of a few things that I have. But they're not objects. They're actually tattoos. Mark: Ah, Yucca: So a few years back at this point, we did an episode on CILs and I hadn't, sigils weren't really a big thing for me at that point but I played with it. Afterwards. Well, we, we did it a little bit before and I had kind of experimented with it so that we could prepare for the episode. And then I ended up deciding one of them after a few months, I went, you know what? This is really working for me, and I decided that I actually was gonna tattoo that on myself. So I did. Now I have on my left hand because I'm right-handed. Well and multiple other reasons as well. Cuz I wear my watch on my right hand. I wanted to access it on my wrist, but I did some white tattoos, which barely show up because I'm, I'm very very pale skinned. So the white just looks kind of like a scar almost. And so I put some marks on. And so I have one on my wrist. Which is for, for fo remembering where my focus is throughout the day, right. And to be paying attention to the things that I actually have influence over and I can control and not stressing constantly about the things that I. I do not have control over. Right. I have no control over what this weather is going to do, but I do have control over how I'm going to respond to that. Right. And another one I have on the back of my hand is a Memento Mori reminder. And throughout the day, I actually touch these on a regular basis. Just to remind, remind myself. It almost feels like pushing a button, like a Oh, right. Okay. Remember, Where's your focus, right? Or hey, this is, this is what you've got, right? Today is what you've got. You don't have tomorrow promised. And you know, that's okay. Right? What are you doing today to, to really live? Because nothing is guaranteed every day, every new day is a bonus. It's a gift, right? So those are. Those are, those are things that I felt strongly enough that I wasn't going to change my mind about whether or not I had that in 20 years. If I'm lucky enough to be here in 20 years, I'm still gonna be thinking about being lucky to be here in 20 years and where I'm focusing my energy on. But if there's certain other things that I'm working on in particular, I actually really like to use Henna. So Hannah's really nice because it, depending on where you put it on your body, right, there's certain areas where it's gonna fade right away. If you put Hannah on your palm, for instance, it's not gonna last, last for very long. But other parts of your body, it might last, you know, or you're not touching things as much or you don't produce as much oils. But you'll get several days to maybe a week out of time of having that symbol literally on your body or that reminder literally on your body. So. Mark: That's a great idea. I, I love that. I don't have any tattoos. I have design for two tattoos that I want to do, one of which is the Sumtry symbol. But I've just never had the free money to invest in having somebody do it. But one day I, I love that idea and I love the idea of You know, of, of recognizing that some of these things are permanent modes that you're, that you want to pursue in, in life. You always want to be aware of your mortality and its implications that you always want to be able to, you know, focus on what you're able to influence and not stress about the rest. Yeah, so tho those are very tallman. And I think. As, when we look at like tsi, the ice, the so-called iceman, the the, Yucca: Yeah, they had lots of tattoos in various places. Mark: right? And they were very obviously magical symbols of some kind. They, they were not, they were not particularly decorative. But you know, that that man had tattoos, which were clearly meant something. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: We will never know exactly what they meant, but we can conjecture that they were protective or for luck and fortune in hunting or, you know, any of those kinds of things. And so I, I think the history of tattoos, you know, really kind of feeds into what you described for yours, Yucca. That's really, really great. Yucca: and I think there's, so I have, I have other ones too that were done by artists. I've got quite a bit on my back and And those were very meaningful and special too. But there's also something about, for the really simple ones, the doing it yourself. There's something very, Mark: Hmm. Yucca: there was, it was very nice to do that. So just the poking stick, the old style, you know, you just have your, you can buy the kits right, and get the right ink. You don't wanna just do any ink. You have to get the right ink to put in your body and you don't wanna be putting in your lead ink or things like that, right? But that in itself can be a ritual. And actually having an artist do it as well, Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: you can really make that a really special thing. Mark: Sure. Well, and you've got all the endorphins that are provoked by the pain of the, of the tattooing. That puts you in kind of an altered state. I mean, people talk about how tattoos can be addictive Yucca: Yeah. Mark: and I, you know, I understand that. But that, that trans state, that state of being altered by the tattooing process is. Very much a ritual opportunity. It's you know, it's a, a state where you can, being in that trend state, you can apply a layer of meaning beyond simple decoration. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: To the, to the, the symbol that you're putting on yourself. And, and most of the people that I know who have tattoos, they associate meetings with them. They, they, they're not just decorative, they, they, they're there for a reason. Yucca: Yeah. That seems to be pretty, I mean, I can't think of anyone who I've asked about their tattoo and they haven't had some elaborate explanation about, you know, oh, this is, you know, the pair of sewing scissors because my mother and grandmother and I used to this and that, and you know, there's often, often stories that go along with it or, You know, things like, you know, this is my this is my five years sober tattoo, or my, you know, that kind of stuff, Mark: Or the semicolon for people who have survived suicide attempts, for example. Right. Not the end of the story. There's more to the sentence. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: All, you know, there are, there are a lot of different kinds of symbols like that that are very meaningful to people and that I think are some of which are intended to be communicative. You know, they're supposed to tell a story to someone else, and for others it's just you telling the story to yourself when you see them on your body. Yucca: and that's why for me, I chose white. I wanted them somewhere that I could see all the time, but I didn't want something that was gonna be flashy to someone else. Right. So that's why, I mean, I don't think most people even notice it. Right. But it's about, Mark: I certainly never did when we met at the Century Retreat last year, I. Yeah, I, I never noticed them. Yucca: Well I had, when we, then I had the one on my wrist, I didn't have the one on my hand. But again, I don't think it's showing up on the Mark: I can't see it on the screen through Zoom. No, I can't see it. Yucca: I think maybe it shows like you can barely see it, but I see it and that's what matters for me. Mark: course, of course. Yucca: my more visible, my more like elaborate ones. I do still have them so that I can cover them if I want, but the, the stigma around them is really faded, right? People don't get worried about that anymore. It used to be a big deal, but now it's a I don't know if the statistic is real, but it's supposed to be like a third of American millennials have a tattoo, Mark: Hmm. Yucca: like that. Wouldn't surprise me at all. Mark: Me neither. I mean, you see them everywhere and you know, I, in professional office circumstances, I've, you know, worked with a lot of people who, you know, they have sleeves and and all that. So yeah, it's, it's very common to me. I've just never really felt the opportunity. It's, it's not that I'm in any way morally opposed So, yeah, what we're talking about here really is about how do you create symbolic meaning that reverberates through you in the course of your daily operations as opposed to your daily practice, which might be, okay, I do this formal thing in the morning, I do a formal thing in the evening. That's great. But you know, I, I wanna be reminded of my values on a regular basis, and I want to be reminded of the things that I've learned that help me to be wiser and kinder. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: So, you know, having those kinds of practices I think is a good way to have a touchstone to go back. those principles because, you know, the world can frazzle you, Yucca: He can't. Yeah. Mark: you know, really pull you out of any sense of centeredness in yourself. Yucca: As you were saying that it occurred to me. There's other points throughout the day that aren't things that I use, but that would be opportunities for other people if it's something that they do. If you wear makeup every morning, Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: a great time. Right to c incorporate some something in there. And just the act of getting dressed too, like you talk about having the items that you keep in your jeans, but you know, is there, is there something when you are dotting your clothing that you are reminding yourself about the, the values that you have or so things like that. Mark: Not ordinarily, but certainly when I'm dressing professionally, like if I'm putting on a suit, I'm putting on a suit of armor. And, you know, I put on a suit to go to war because the kinds of contexts where I need to be dressed that way tend to be ones where I am advocating. Yeah, I'm advocating for something. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm trying to make a change. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And either that or I'm defending myself which is, you know, another, another possibility. So. You know, clothing and costume is another whole conversation we could have. And, you know, maybe we will at some point Yucca: think we should, yes. Mark: I think we should too. Because decorating ourselves in various ways is highly communicative to the people around us. And We make choices about what we wanna say. You know, we, it talks about what class we are, it talks about what gender we are. It talks about what what kind of work we do. It, it, it says a lot of stuff. Our education level. Yucca: views, our, you know, yes. All kinds of things. Mark: Yeah. So let's, let's put a pin in that and, Yucca: Yeah, we'll come back to that. Mark: Yeah, we'll definitely come back to that. But you know, the whole self adornment thing, you know, beyond the practicalities of being warm enough or cool enough I, I think are, are an interesting vein to explore for people that are working to fold meaning into the operation of their lives. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: So this is, you know, sort of a. Whirlwind examination of all this stuff, but I, I, I think the, the fundamental point that I want to communicate is that you know, if there's a special rock that you like and it reminds you of something like a beautiful day at the beach or something, don't feel weird about carrying that around. That's, that absolutely makes sense to carry that around. Yucca: That's very human. We've been doing that a long time. Mark: Yes. Yes. And we can do it intentionally and it can become a part of our, of our practice. Yucca: Yeah. Well, this was a fun one. Thank you. A. Mark: Yeah. Thank you, Yucca, and we'll see you next week.    

Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. S4E14 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm your host, mark, Yucca: And I'm Yucca. Mark: and today we are going to talk about children's activities for springtime. In most places by now spring has sprung and there are green shoots and leafing trees leafing out and flowers and the sweet smell in the air. And the weather has become, if not mild than milder. And it's, it's just a time for celebrating spring and. And we often associate childhood with spring. Yucca: Right. And I wanna say that before we get going, we're gonna be talking about kids, but a lot of these activities can be for kids of all ages, right? Just because we're going to be thinking about children doesn't mean you can't be your. 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, whatever age you are. Right? So if you've got kiddos in your life, that's awesome. And if you just wanna feel a little bit young at heart, then that's great too. Yeah. Mark: Yeah, that's a really important point I think, because I mean, at least as I celebrate the Wheel of the Year when there's a focus on children around the time of the spring e Equinox, and then going into young adulthood around mayday. It's, it's not only to celebrate those members of the community that are at those stages in their life, it's also to celebrate those qualities in ourselves, right? We, you know, we all still have a kid inside us and that playfulness and Astonishment of discovery and kind of wonder and awe that that comes in a childlike view of the world are great things for all of us. Yucca: Yeah, so this time of year we've. The new life or the waking up of life happening, the popping back in a lot of our holidays have to do with this reemergence of life and newness of things. Is there anything else that, that really speaks kid to you about this time of year? Mark: The bright colors. Yucca: Hmm mm-hmm. Mark: You know, the colors of flowers, the, the mating plumage of birds the, the fruit trees leafing out and flowering and we associate bright colors with this. Both with childhood you know, those kind of primary colors that are used in a lot of children's toys and so forth. But also with this time of year with brightly colored eggs and jelly beans and things like that as well. So, that's something else that I associate with this time of year is just really super colorful, bright color palette. Yucca: Right. Yeah, I see that too. And for us also, the getting back outdoors. And our climate, this really is when we can be spending lots of time outdoors again. I mean, we, we do anyways, but it's far more pleasant to do it when it's not literally freezing, right? When you can go out and, oh, you don't have to have the shoes on and you can not worry about bundling up every, you can just go out, right? You don't. Make it this whole ordeal to get them all wrapped up and to get you and the, you know, you can just go, there's just, there's a, there's a freedom, there's a just sort of, what's the word I'm looking for? Like  Mark: Well, there's, there's an exuberance that goes with that, right? I mean, you, you feel that soft air on your skin. Yucca: yeah. Mark: You know, that wonderful soft spring air on your skin and after being indoors for months, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: that's a, a very pleasant change of pace. Yucca: Yeah. Well, why don't we get into some of the things? Yeah. Mark: okay. That's what I was gonna suggest. Let's do that. Yucca: All right. Well, we were brainstorming a little bit before and came up with a huge list of stuff to get into and I'm sure that we'll miss some of the things.  Mark: will. Yucca: but the first thing that really pops into my mind is the spring cleaning. I know you might think of this as more of like a grownup sort of thing. But I think that at least for us, having the kids fully involved with all of the household activities is really important because they're part of our society too. Right. And if you want them to be able to do their laundry when they're 20, well, They need to start doing their laundry earlier on. They need to be part of that process, not have it be this huge ordeal when suddenly they're on their own and Oh goodness, right? Like, no, they just, you know, they're part of the household. They're, they're involved in that. And so same thing with any other activity we're doing. And so the spring cleaning it, there's something about spring. I know it's cliche. There's, I think we've recognized it for a long time, that it's, you know, you're opening up the windows, you're letting that fresh air in. There's that new beginnings happening in the outside world, and so we kind of bring that into the inside world. And I, I think it's really important for the, you know, their agency, their self agency and that, and getting to choose, okay, well, you know, let. Get rid of these things, they don't fit you anymore. Is there one or two that you wanna save as a keepsake? And if so, where are you gonna fit that? Because there's a limited amount of space right there. Right. And just having them be part of that process and, you know, making it kind of a fun thing, I think is, is really powerful. Mark: Sure. Yeah. When you've been closed up inside for months, things pile. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: just, just a lot of junk. You know, you, you put something down and forget about it and then two months later it's still there. Well, it's time to move that thing now. Yucca: With three things on top of it. Mark: well, yeah. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And one thing, you know, kids really like doing adult stuff. They like being involved in things that feel real. Right. So, you know, you'll. You know, kids with like toy razors and, you know, stuff like that cuz they, they want to pretend to be adults Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and so, you know, hey, why don't you help me clean out the garage is, I mean, you know, to an adult that may sound like I don't want to clean out the garage, but to a kid it's like, Hey, I get to clean out the garage. Yucca: Yeah, I mean, it depends on how you sell it. Right. And it depends on what else they're doing. If you're saying, why don't you stop playing Minecraft right now and come do something else, you might not get the buy-in, right?  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: you, you gotta kind of think about how to do it and have it be an invitation. And I mean, it's such a tricky balance that, you know, every family figures out what works for them with their values and the particular people that are involved. But for me, I, I try and be very careful about not making it a requirement. Right. Not making it this sort of, well, if they aren't, you know, if they don't wanna come work with me in the greenhouse, like that's okay. I wouldn't force my partner to do that. Right? So why would I, you know, force my kid to do it? I don't wanna make it this obligation thing. And so there's a, there's some trust in there, right? That kind of has to be built between the people involved. And, but most of the time I find that it ends up is, you know, if I'm mindful about what space they're in, they often are pretty interested in coming and participating and doing. You know, their share of it. That's not to say that we don't have things that are their responsibility, right? They certainly have their chores and things like that, but when it's inviting them to come do new things and learn new things and participate with, fully, participate in that, like the adult world of running the households making sure that it isn't this gloomy pressure thing I think is really important. Mark: Yeah. And I think as you say, there are ways you can sell it. You know, if it's, if it's like, you know, in the morning at breakfast, The next three days are special days. They are spring cleaning days. We're going to, we're going to, you know, get our whole place together here. It's really exciting. So I'm gonna be working in the garage who'd like to help me? Yucca: Yeah. And ooh. You get to pick out the music when we're in the garage, right? You're working with me in the garage, you're the one who gets to pick the song or you know, that kind of thing. And again, it's just always gonna depend on the particular person, because for some people that's exciting. And for others they're like, I get to pick out the music, so what, like, that doesn't mean anything to me. Right. But, you know, yeah. But setting aside, it's that time. And. This is one thing that this kind of general parenting thing that we found because I know that a lot of other parents really struggle with the, ourselves included. I'm saying this is something that we as a society have is that struggle with the balance between screen and non-screen time. That we try and set an expectation of, well, during the morning time, like that just isn't screen time. Nobody's doing screen. And the hardest thing is just if parents aren't doing screen, kids aren't doing screen. It's just not, that's not, when you do screen. Screen is something that happens in the afternoons and sometimes into the evening, but not at night. Right. Like you just set up the expectation. And just kind of have to stick to it and, and be the, the model for it. And I always find that the hardest part. It's easy for me to like tell them what to do. Be like, you can't be on the screen. It's a lot harder for me to put mine away, but it's absolutely ineffective if I tell them not to do it while I'm sitting here doing it because they're not stupid. Right. They have humans. Humans have a fierce sense of fairness. yeah. So, Mark: Yeah, and you know, the, the, the concept of injustice is something that we developed very early. Yucca: Oh, Mark: Yeah. You know, if you're doing it and I'm not allowed to do it, there's something wrong. Yeah. So one thing that, it occurs to me, because we were gonna talk in a moment about decorating the house for, for the season. Right. And it occurs to me, you can actually tie this to the spring cleaning piece, where it's like we clean it first and then we decorat. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Yeah.  Mark: to get to the fun, crafty decoration part, we gotta clean it first. And so it becomes, you know, a kind of a seamless project where the whole thing, you know, we're decorating, but of course to decorate we've gotta get this stuff out of the way first. Yucca: Yeah, you, you gotta have a clean wall to do that with. Get rid of those hand prints. We all have those hand prints. You know what hand prints I'm talking about, right? Yeah. There's just so many of them everywhere, so I love that. Yeah. And again, just always making it into that kind of fun thing. The point of it is to, is I think of it as to be joyous, right? That this is, this is life we get, you know, why is it that we want our houses to be clean well, so that it feels good to be in them, right? So that we're healthy so that we enjoy being in them so we can be productive. But why do we wanna be productive so that we can be happy, right? It all comes back to, you know, what's to. Just enjoying the life that we have. Right. And, you know, we we're taking care of our loved ones, but again, so that they can be happy because we love them.  Mark: Really well said. Yeah, I, I think it's important to always, you know, root. Root, our actions, our re you know, and our recommendations of actions in exactly that, you know, how is this making your life better or how is this making the world better or both? Right. You know, those, those, those are the, you know, to, to my mind, those are the two edicts that we have being alive, you know, live a really full, joyous, amazing life and. You know, leave something better than it was when you got here. And I mean, that's a very fulfilling kind of life to have. And so, yeah. Exactly. So Yucca: Yeah, so there's the decorating, the spring decorating. I always think bringing some of what's happening in the outside world, into the inside world. I was just sharing with Mark earlier, our daffodils have just start, so we're recording on the 15th. So where I live, our daffodils just bloomed. And Mark, you were saying they were blue for you. It was January, right? Mark: of January. Yeah. Yucca: Yeah. But a couple cut daffodils, you know, in, in a little. We don't have any fancy vs. So it's mason jar, right? So we have it sitting in a mason jar on the table and bringing in some of the things. We still have a lot of our feathers up and things like And just bringing some of the stuff from outside in. And of course, my kids love bringing in rocks. We have piles of shiny rocks all over the place. The cat then goes and knocks down cuz they're the perfect size for knocking down. So in the middle of the night, you're  Mark: You got a whole ecosystem going there. Yucca: We do, yes. And then you step on them. And it just reminds you that you're alive when you step on rocks, brought in by children, knocked over by cats and all of that. I think the, that gets at just to re to remember also that, that. When it comes to kids, you just kind of gotta go with the flow with them sometimes. And they're not gonna be perfect at things. They're learning. This is them learning for the first time. And we've had years and years of practice at everything from, you know, how to move our hands to regulating our emotions when we're disappointed and, and they haven't yet. And this is them learning to do that. And so, It can be tricky to let go of some of the expectations of how it's gonna look and how well to get it done and just say it's okay. It, it's really okay. As long as it functions, as long as, you know, nobody's in danger and gonna get hurt and it's healthy. Right. You're not, it's not dirty to the extent that it's unhealthy or something like that. It's okay. Right. You know? so, and I think that's good to remember with ourselves. Coming back to the, there being inner children and all of us just to, to give ourselves that Grace A. Little bit sometimes too. So Mark: Yeah, that's, that's well said. I, I really agree with that. Yucca: yeah. Mark: you can bring in flowers from the outside. You can bring in like bows from a lilac bush that's blooming or cherry tree that's blooming. All of those things make for pretty nice sort of tabletop decorations. You can bring in bright, bright spring leaves. I mean, we tend to think of leaves as being more of an autumn thing. But those bright green spring leaves, you can string 'em on. And hang them up or just use them sort of to carpet the horizontal surfaces in your, your house, whatever, Yucca: Or a little clear bowl, like if a little glass bowl, put those in them. It, you know. Very beautiful. Yeah. So next, why don't we talk a little bit about crafts. So art, there's art and craft, right? And people are gonna, there, there, there's a vinn diagram there and where they overlap people is gonna depend on each person's preferences, right? For me, I think about art as something that doesn't necessarily have a purpose other. Just the, the process of making it and the enjoyment of looking at it. Right. Whereas the craft has a, has another purpose behind it. Like a, kind of, the traditional kid craft is weaving the pot holder or something like that. So you have the process of making it, but then it's also an object that has a, has a, a purpose afterwards. Right. Mark: Uhhuh Uhhuh. Yucca: so springtime, there's definitely lots of the sorts of, you know, making the bird feeder or that kind of outdoor sorts of things. What we look for is things that the kids can do that's important to the. The household where they get to be part of what needs to happen, and that has a real purpose to it. Because again, coming back to they're, they're not, they're smart, right? They know when we're just making something up to give them busy work and they know when it's something that really matters and it's so important for their. Like they're self-efficacy, right? To, to know that they are contributing and they are able to contribute. So when we can come up with things, tasks for them to do that can be uniquely theirs that are kind of crafty sort of things. I think that's a really nice opportunity. Right. And that's just gonna depend on what's happening in your, what your household is like. What are you rural, urban, are you. Temperate, tropical. You know, all of those things are gonna vary. Mark: Right. Although that said, bird feeders are a pretty good choice because there are birds pretty much everywhere Yucca: Yeah. Mark: of one kind or another, and if you put out food for them, they will eat it. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: They, they, they will show up and they will eat it. We have a very active couple of bird feeders here at our place. One for hummingbirds and one for PA birds, and yeah, they they sure go through that bird seed. It's amazing. Yucca: Yeah. Well, and that's one of the, the jobs, which is my kids, they go out and they. They take out the bird seed and they clean the water dishes as well, because we we're in a very dry environment. So having water out is almost more important for our wildlife than. The bird, the seed, right? It's easier to find food than it is to find water. But we wanna make sure that that's clean so that we're not spreading diseases, right? So they go out and they swap out, depending on the dish. We have a couple that they bring the dish in and we just swap it out every day, right? So it gets washed every day with the dishes and then it goes back out. And and so that's one that that they know. If they don't do, then the birds. Get their food, the, then the chipmunks don't get their food and the squirrels don't. Now, I could imagine for a kid who struggles with anxiety, that might not be the, a good fit for them, right? Where if they, that might be anxiety inducing. But depending on the personality, you know, for mine, that that's something that is an empowering experience for them and just as, as their grownups, we just need to be kind of tuned into how is this? How is this likely to be received with the particular person that we're shepherding and, and helping? Right. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: But it's lovely for them to be like, oh, I haven't fed the birds yet. The poor things. They're gonna be so hungry. Right. And it's like all the eight in the mornings like, yeah, it's okay. You could go do it. They'll, they'll appreciate it. Mark: they're not quite that fragile, but yes, you, you remembered and it's your job and that's great. Yucca: So, and I think I shared my favorite one. This is not a spring activity, but just for a suggestion of types of activities that we did this year that worked out so lovely. Is our, our house We heat with passive solar and a wood stove. And so we have to light a fire in the cold months of the year. And so in the fall, the, the kids gathered lots of little sticks and made the little Kindle bundles. And that was their job. And so, When every time we lit a fire, we were lighting it with the bundles that the kids made. Right? So that kind of activity, and that was just so lovely because every day it was something they, they're a little bit too young to actually be starting the fire on their own right. We're really big on them doing. Doing lots of stuff in the household, but they're still, my, my oldest is only six and a half, so I th you know, wait a few years till she's lighting fires. But she still got to be part of that really important thing. And the littlest, he got to be part of that as well and get to feel like, wow, I contributed, I'm part of the family. I'm important and. You know, I, I plan to be there as long as I can for them, right? I, I wanna make it to the triple digits if I can, but there will be a time when I'm not there to help them and they have to do it on their own, right? And so I want them to be as, as prepared for that as possible in a way that is as Smooth, right? As, as could, can be, right? Because people, we'll figure out how to do it. Humans will figure out how to survive. But if it can be as painless a process as possible, I think that's nice. Mark: I think so too. Yeah. Yucca: then they can spend that effort on, on something else.  Mark: Mm-hmm. So yeah. So do you want to talk about other kinds of craft activities? I mean, the, the, the classic for this time of year is dying eggs. Yucca: Absolutely. Mark: It's a little late in the year this year for doing that. But it's still really cool especially if you use, especially if you use natural dyes. And. There are techniques you can use to put like leaf prints on the sides of the eggs and stuff, really make them beautiful. And it just then, then you have hard boiled eggs you're going to eat. And just a little more color to your breakfast. Yucca: Yeah, and you can also if you're using natural dyes, you can boil your eggs, peel them, then dye them. And then you actually, when you eat your eggs, you have colorful eggs. And that usually goes over pretty well with the kids, Mark: I Yucca: right? It, it won't go all the way through to get that top, you know, few millimeters or so. So you get like the little ring and if you slice the eggs in the like discs, that's really nice. Mark: Okay. Yucca: oh, and doing deviled eggs and dying it different colors. That's really fun. Mark: Okay. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I can't imagine deviled eggs with blue blue yolk mixture. Yucca: yes. Well, and if you, if you dye the the outside of it a little bit too, and this is, and this might be just a little kid thing, but a lot of kids that I've known really like when you, when you play, when you present the food in a more fun way. Right. We, we we'll make little like scrambled eggs and I have cookie cutters and so I'll fry them in the pan in the cookie cutters. So it's the shape of a T-Rex when they eat their eggs. Right? So much more fun. Now you have t-rex eggs, right? So, and you could definitely  Mark: And then, Yucca: the sort of spring themed things, right?  Mark: then they can, they can tell their friends that they had dinosaur eggs for breakfast. Yucca: Well, and they did My, my kids are very fond of telling me that chickens are dinosaurs,  Mark: Oh, okay. There you go. Yucca: yeah. Mark: They sure act like dinosaurs. Yucca: Yep. Well, why don't we talk also about the outside stuff, because since spring, you know, this is when we can get back outside. There's all kinds of fun games. There's all the, you know, the classic childhood games. You're capture the flag. Hide. Yeah, hide and seek. You know, setting up little like scavenger hunts. Oh, speak. As long as we're talking kids. One of the traditions that we have started doing now that, that we're in the losing teeth time period, is we don't do any of the like tooth fairy or Santa Claus or any of that because I'm uncomfortable with. Lying about it. Right. And I know some peop that's just something that is not comfortable for me. So instead of having a tooth fairy come and give the kids money, we do a scavenger hunt every time they lose a tooth. And then there's something like a little prize at the end. Yeah. Mark: Nice. Nice. So there's still a ceremonial recognition of this thing that's happened and a fun activity and a little reward. Yeah. Yucca: For the, my oldest one, they lost their first tooth. They'd been asking for a watch for a while because I wear a watch. And I had been reluctant to give them a watch because the. Pretty rough with their hands and breaking things and all of that. But when they lost their tooth, I got a watch for them and that was their prize. But each of the steps on the scavenger hunt was going to places where they have done things that they've been growing up and maturing in the family. So they went to the greenhouse where they help water the plants and we went out to the wood pile where they help go get wood and out to the bird feeder. Where they feed the bird. Right. And going from spot to spot with a little note about like, How you've been contributing and growing up. And then at the end, they got to get their watch. They were mature enough and that they had shown they were mature and old enough to get their watch when they lost their first tooth and all of that. Mark: Oh, that's love. Yucca: so so I think that they're with families, it's, there's so much. Possibility. And it's just, it's coming up with ideas like that. It's just you get to play, right. Play with these ideas of what, what is it? And, and bringing in some of the silliness to it or the fun, you know, I tried to write as teeny, teeny tiny as I could with that, right? Cuz we were, pretend we were playing with the tooth fairy thing. She's very insistent though that that stuff doesn't exist. She's. You know, we don't believe in God's. They're important stories, but we don't believe in them. And the tooth fair is kind of like a God, but not really. Because I don't have any books about her. And I'm like, okay, well we could give you a book about her. So, but coming back to the, the outside stuff, I think that getting outside, playing outside and something that we don't, it's amazing how much we don't have of this in our modern lives, but just having free unstructured time is just so critical. important for littles and really important for adults too. Just to be able to be out and just do whatever your curiosity leads you to, or notice that butterfly that's going there, or, you know, enjoy. Taking that stick and seeing how many times you can break it in half, whatever it is that coming up with your adventure games, your make-believe stories about how you can transform into a giant snake or whatever it is. It's just so, so important for kids. And the spring just feels like perfect for that because we, you cannot do all, you can do that stuff inside, but there's something very different about being outside out of the physical structure. Right. Out of these boxes that we live in, these literal boxes, right? If you're inside, I'm guessing that there, a few of you might be listening to this on a walk right now, but the vast majority of of people listening, I bet you're inside a box right now. You're inside a metal box, which is your car. You're inside a, a wooden frame box, which is your house, or maybe it's concrete or steel. But we spend a lot of time in these really defined structures that just feel very, very different than being outside with. Messy lines and flowing forms that are moving because there's a little bit of wind going through them in the clouds and there's just so much more, I don't even know the words, but you know, it's, it's outside is messy. Right. Mark: Yeah. There's so much more to experience out there, obviously. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: It's, it's always moving and changing. The sky is always changing. And it's full of those shaggy fractal shapes, right? The repeating patterns that make up the shape of a, of a coniferous tree or a particular kind of shrub or whatever it is, and having those kinds of patterns. For some reason is very reassuring to people. It's good for our mental health to see those kinds of things and we find them very beautiful which is, it's good for us. The experience of beauty is good for us. So, while you're outside, you might want to have something to drink. So I have a recipe for raspberry lemonade. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: And so let me give you this, it's pretty, should be pretty simple. You can jot it down, you know, you can stop the podcast, jot things down, and then continue. It is tasty and refreshing childlike beverage for spring. So, what I'm, what I'm about to, to tell you about serves 12. Yucca: Ooh. Okay.  Mark: So you need three quarters of a cup, and I'm not gonna give the metric conversions. I've got 'em, but I'm, I'm not gonna give them three quarters of a cup of fresh or thawed, frozen raspberries, nine cups of water, two cups of freshly squeezed lemon juice, which is about 12 lemons, and then two cups of very fine or powdered. Which is less than was in the original recipe that I adapted this from. Because I like my, my lemonade kind of tart. I don't like it. Super sweet. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: So you puree the raspberries in a blender and strain them through a siv to take the seeds out into a pitcher, and then you add everything else and whisk it together until the sugar dissolves and pour over ice and. It's very simple, but it's delicious. Really, really good. And if you need an adult version of this, it goes well with vodka. Yucca: Yeah. And with the sugar you could probably put less in, taste it, and then just keep adding to taste. Mark: Yes, that's a, that's a good idea because people have different amounts of tolerance for sugar, different amounts of, of taste for sugar, so Yucca: But it seems like it's such a simple, easy recipe that you can just add in as you need. Yeah.  Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: Yep. And it's, it's a delicious, tasty beverage to have on one of those warm spring days. Yucca: Yep. Mark: When kids have been running around and running around and running around and running around and they're finally starting to flag, might be time to plunk them down and have something with some electrolytes in it and you know, get some water into 'em.  Yucca: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then before we know it, it'll be the hot time of year, right? Mark: yep. Yep, indeed. It's not far off for sure. Yucca: Hmm. Well, is there anything else, mark, that we should touch on in our  Mark: You know, not that I can think of  Yucca: activities? Mark: other than just to encourage everybody to go out and play, you know, go out and, you know, kick a ball around or, you know, do whatever it is that you like to do outside. That's fun. It's this is a great time of year in the Northern Hemisphere to be out under the sky and just really enjoying the great outdoors. So, really encourage you to do that in whatever manner works best for you. Yucca: Yeah. Well, thank you for joining us, everyone. Mark: Lovely to, to have you with us. As always, thanks so much for supporting the podcast. And just a quick reminder, the conference that we're doing in June ticket sales are still registration is still open and will be until a few days before the conference. The. We'll, we'll put the link to how you get the information and register and all that kind of stuff in the show notes. Yucca: And I will be doing a kids activity. So there will be an activity for kiddos if they want to come and join us for this, for that. So, yeah.  Mark: Okay.  Thanks everybody.      

Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. S4E6 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-Based Paganism. I'm one of your host Yucca. Mark: And I'm the other one, mark. Yucca: And today we are excited to have a very special interview. So we have Rana joining us. Rana: Hi. Thank you for having. Mark: Welcome Rana. Rana is a member of the atheopagan community and serves on the atheopagan Society Council. And we are, this is part of our series to help people in the community to become. A little bit more familiar with who's serving on the council and you know what their vision is for the future and all that good kind of stuff. So we're delighted to be able to talk with you today, Ron. Rana: Thank you for having me. I'm really looking forward. Yucca: Yeah. Thanks for coming on. So I think, I mean, maybe a, a good place to start here would be with what brought you to atheism. Rana: Yeah, so I was raised without religion and I never really related to when people talked about God or religion or having a faith. I didn't really have a reference for what that meant. My parents are not religious, and I remember them, you know, having negative views of religion due to hypocrisy and news scandals and stuff like that. I'd been to a few churches as a kid for weddings and events, but I never really felt like I fit in there, didn't feel like it was something for me, and just didn't understand it really. And on top of, you know, Being the child of an immigrant from the UK and an immigrant from Iran, there have been a lot of places and times in my life that I felt like I didn't fit in, and religion just definitely felt like one of them where I accepted that I just, I don't understand this, it doesn't apply to me. And I mostly felt okay about that. Many years later, I discovered the term atheist, and for a long time I have felt apathetic towards Philosoph. Phyla, sorry. Philosophical and theological debates about the existence of God or not, because it feels like it just doesn't matter to me. Bio. I like that term atheist, like an apathetic atheist. I was really drawn to the paranormal as a child and I watched a lot of stuff related to that. I'm sure I saw a segment somewhere about witchcraft or Wicca or paganism, and I'm sure that embedded itself somewhere in my mind. , I was definitely drawn to witchcraft as a team. Many team girls seem to be, I've noticed, and it made me feel seen in a certain way and had a really big appeal for me that I couldn't quite put my finger on, but it just felt like something that I liked. Now that I'm older, I can see it a little bit differently that I think it's about power and autonomy. It's about discovering yourself, your body, your sexuality, how you process feelings, you know, getting into the psychological aspect of it. And so I only ever did things on a very casual, solitary basis, and I think I liked the sensory aspects more than the frameworks themselves. I really enjoyed going to my local new age store, and I felt, I remember feeling really calm and curious when I was there. It just, it always felt like such an experience with the smell of incense and the gentle bells and calming music and being surrounded by books. It was just perfect for an introvert, shy, like kid like. and it also felt like a place full of this esoteric knowledge, and I've been a very eager, lifelong learner. So the whole thing just really appealed to. , but I also feel like I spent a lot of those younger years searching and never quite finding whatever it was I was looking for. I never became involved with any other people or groups, and I always just remained on my own. And in retrospect, I'm kind of glad about that just because I've heard so many mixed and negative experiences about folks getting involved in groups, especially as a young person. So, . You know, it's hard to say what it would've been like if I didn't get involved with the group, but that was just how it went. I spent quite a bit of my twenties being out of touch with anything spiritual. I held onto some interest in ghosts in a vague sense of paranormal, and I just kept this agnostic take on it. But perhaps there are things out there we don't yet understand, but I can't say for sure either way. What is the ultimate answer, ultimate truth. Yucca: Hmm. Rana: I slowly became a more skeptical thinker, and I had one particular partner who really modeled that for me, and I'm very grateful to have adopted that mindset over the years. He was also an atheist as a rejection of a Christian upbringing, and I noticed a lot of my friends had a similar path. as I continued to grow and really just broaden my perspective of the world, I became very existential and got a starker, for lack of a better word, materialist picture of the universe, and that really strongly has defined my worldview. Going forward, I realized I was an atheist and I felt an overall sense of clarity about that. Like it didn't feel like a bad thing to me. It, I felt good about it. But I didn't know any atheist spaces where I felt like I belonged or felt comfortable. It always felt like there was a larger interest in being angry and logical tends to be very male dominated, and there was just. Felt like more debating than a feeling of building a community or building shared meaning together. I, I never quite saw anything like that happening. Many years passed, and then at the beginning of the pandemic, I sort of had a reckoning where I realized how important critical thinking and rational thought are to me. There was a driving force behind it with all the pseudoscience and conspiracy theories that were going around. The uncertainty of that time also brought witchcraft to the forefront as a trend again, and got me thinking about it a little bit more. And I started following some content creators. But I have a hard time trying to make that separation of just ignoring the things that I don't connect with. And you know, like discussion of d d isn't magic for me. , it's, it's not very interesting to me, Yucca: Right. Rana: and I found myself searching for ways to learn the taro. Without the supernatural aspect, and I didn't even know what to call that. I remember googling secular tarot, and I think I found one blog and it didn't seem to have a lot of content, and so I thought that just wasn't a thing. I actually started to wonder if I should make it a thing . I was like, is nobody doing this Yucca: mm-hmm. Rana: because I, I feel like I'd heard of the tarot being a psychological. Like having a psychological aspect to it. And I wanted to learn more as using it as a psychological tool and not for divination. I started joining some witchy subreddits and I eventually found the SaaS witches subreddit, which was forgetting what it stands for, all of a Mark: Skeptical, atheistic agnostic and science seeking witches, I, I think is what that stands for. Rana: Yeah, that's right. And I remembered seeing either a post or a comment about atheopagan and the name itself made me pause, like, whoa, I've never seen those two words together. What does that mean? So I looked into it and I saw that there was. The community and I joined the Facebook group and I was just really blown away to have both of these things that I was interested in suddenly crystallize and come together in this singular idea, which also had a whole community attached to it. It really never occurred to me that these two parts of myself could coexist together. . And since it was the beginning of the pandemic, it was also a very particular time Yucca: right. Rana: And, you know, I remember challenging myself to just go to one of the mixers, peck it out, and I distinctly remember having a feeling of familiarity and feeling like I was in the right place. It's a little hard to describe. But it's not something I feel too often. So it was notable. And you know, those video chats really became a very meaningful part of my routine, especially in the earlier parts of the pandemic where there was a lot of uncertainty and fear and a need to really process what was happening with other people. And so I was really grateful to be able to do that. Like-minded folks who were grounded and rational and but also had warmth and just a sense of comradery. So, you know, overall finding the community was just this really big and refreshing change for me that gave me access to a community as an atheist and let me, Have my witchy interests, but stay aligned with science, logic, and reason, while also keeping the warmth of wonder and humanity, and I have yet to find that in another space. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: Well, that's wonderful. I, I'm, I'm always excited to hear the stories of, you know, how people found us and what it seemed like when they got here. Yeah. That, I mean, from the, from that first mixer, it was really clear to me, you know, oh yeah, this is one of ours. .  Yucca: Yeah. So were there certain values that. that you saw that atheopagan had or the community had that really attracted you to it? Or, you know, what, what was it specifically that really pulled you in? Rana: Yeah, I know I mentioned like rational and critical thinking a little bit. I really respect the group's commitment to doing better and not doing things out of the name of tradition. I really love the social justice aspect of the group that everyone is on board with that, and I really appreciate that. I've seen a lot of healthy communication. Positive healthy debate and also good conflict resolution and having that modeled for me and framed in a way that we're all learning and growing together. So having a little grace with each other, you know, cuz none of us are perfect. I also really value that it's a larger social space where our conversations start from having a shared world. like that isn't necessarily safe to assume from a lot of other spaces and sometimes I do forget that. I love that we're encouraged to question everything and overall there's this sense of a desire for knowledge and I love learning and hearing the things that other people are learning about and sharing. Cuz a lot of the times it's something I would've never encountered on my own. Yucca: Mm. Mm-hmm. Rana: I also very much value it being a space to be vulnerable. You know, along with atheist and agnostic people, often not having a shared space with minded others and forming a connection. . I think there's a real lack of spaces to be vulnerable just in general. And a place to share life's highs and lows with people who share your worldview. And you know, plenty of people find this through friendship, myself included. But I think it's different to have a larger community based on this. A community feels like a space where you're exposed to people you may not otherwise have a friendship or other connection. and I think those other connections are really valuable to expose us to the wider variety of people out in the world and subsequently their interests and knowledge. You know, like I said previously, I've seen. and felt a lot of vulnerability within the Ethiopia Pagan group, and I find that really meaningful to have a space to share and process things with others, knowing that they won't judge you and they may even have resources or similar experiences to share. I love that Ethiopianism. Specifically death and pleasure, positive space. That feels really important to me since death and sex are fundamental parts of the human experience. And again, I just feel like we lack healthy spaces to process thoughts and feelings about that. And it feels like we're. Pushing back against the over culture, you know, like we've, we've talked about before, just this overarching, the overarching social norms, especially of the US and we're just doing our best to live our values and also modeling another way of living. I've also seen how religious groups tend to give people a connection to community. and I've always kind of envied that as a non-religious person, it felt like something I didn't have access to. And I see how those communities sometimes really bring someone through a time of need. And you know, I think there's, thinking ahead a little bit, there's also a sense of vulnerability that comes with. I've noticed people become more religious as they age, and it gives them that connection and support from other people. But I also see this larger epidemic of loneliness in this country, and I think that can become worse frankly, as you age and especially. The people I know tend to not be having children, myself included. So for myself, I'm the only child of immigrants who is not having children, and it feels really important for me to establish chosen family and meaningful social circles around me Yucca: Mm-hmm. Rana: ensure that I have that community around me as I continue aging. And I really want to be part of that support for other people as well. Yucca: Hmm. That's really beautiful. Mark: yeah. That's wonderful. Rana: Thank you. Mark: So. Yeah. I mean there's, there's just, there's so much there that you're, what you're expressing is a reflection of what I really hope for, for this community. You know, what, what I want it to be. And it's not that I don't think that it is, it's that, you know, being in the middle of it, I, I can't necessarily trust my own perceptions. So it's very validating, you know, to hear you reflect that back. You're, you're serving on the atheopagan Society Council now have been since last summer, and you have some other volunteer roles in the community as well. What do you see as your roles for the community? Rana: So, first I wanna say I was really honored to be asked to be on the council. I didn't. And I honestly didn't really understand what the council was until we talked about it more, and I got a pic, a better picture of what it means to be as a registered religious organization and what that entails. I decided to join because I wanted to be a part of creating a stable future for this community that I've come to really care. For myself, I feel that I have a quieter form of contribution. I like to work in the background and I intend to contribute through planning, designing, strategizing, and creating structure. I have some experience with that from managing a small business, and I've seen quite a bit of crossover in how small businesses work and how. The organization is growing and, and needing some processes figured out and things like that.  Mark: So as a member of the council what, what is your hope to bring then in terms of values, vision, I guess, I guess this can go into our next question, which is, you know, what is your vision for this community? Where do you see us going? What do you hope for us? All that kind of. Rana: Yeah. My vision is for the community to stay centered on the needs and desires of the community as it continues to grow and change a little bit. I think it's really important that it stays adaptable as it scales because it will become more complex and I'd hate to see. Anything fall apart just because there isn't structure there. So this feels like a really good time that we're building that structure in really keeping things set up in an egalitarian way like we have discussed, and communicate our efforts to the community and make sure they're aware of what we're doing as a council and as leadership in general council and moderators for the most. Currently make up the leadership and really keeping the conversation open. And I think staying open to new ideas and ways to go about this. I know we're not reinventing the wheel by doing what we're doing in terms of having a decentralized community that. Is trying to create that structure and I'd love for us to look at what other groups have done and see what's worked and what hasn't, and examine that and do our best to adapt that for ourselves. I've seen atheopagan have organic growth, and that's fantastic. People are coming to the community, they're connecting and resonating. And I think that's great. So from my perspective, the focus is really on just creating those robust systems to maintain what we have. Create that really solid foundation and be able to continue to scale and grow. You know, we're an online community and the fact is, online spaces are always in flux. You know, imagine if the group started on Live Journal or MySpace, or even I, IRC chat. Because I've been a part of communities that were on those platforms and they're now defunct most part. And I think it's, it's just important that we remain adaptable in that sense, like technologically. And I think that will be an ongoing exploration for us. And it's not just us too that are considering. Mark: Yeah, I, I love your big picture thinking. You know, you, you, you managed to click back up and look at things from a high level, and that's so important. You know, it's, It's really easy, especially when things are happening so quickly, it's so easy to get kind of caught up in the minutiae and not, and not see that big picture. And I, you know, I really appreciate that you, you bring that for us. You know, another thing that I was going to mention is that on our, in our adult salons that we do once a month, you've really been a rock with. Tremendous resources and a real wisdom that you bring to talk about all kinds of, you know, relational issues and just variety of stuff. It's, it's really been great to have you in those spaces. And, and I know that you feel very strongly about how important it is to have those safe environments to talk about adult topics. So, just wanted to kind of. Give you flowers for that for you know, cuz I really appreciate, you know, how you've really taken that on. Rana: Thank you. Yeah. I really value having that space and that directly ties back to what I said about vulnerability and something I didn't even get to touch on too is the idea of play. I really love that Ethiopianism is also about embracing play and levity and. Making sure we have that in our lives as adults. That's something that I've found is really important for my mental health play. Can also relate into pleasure, but not necessarily. And I think it's just important to have that, that space for each other and, and that idea of a. Space is also something that's difficult to access sometimes. And I think sometimes people don't even know how to express what it is that they're looking for, but I think sometimes it's that, and especially having that with other adults where you can speak frankly and ask questions and not be judged. Mark: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. That's certainly the vision of those spaces. And Once again, you've just been really remarkable with, oh, I have a link, I have a website, I have a paper, I have a guidebook, I have a book recommendation, I have a video recommendation. You know, it's like whatever it is we're talking about, I can count on you to , have something really, you know, quality, value stuff to bring to the table on it. And it's it's really great. It's just really a great thing We Rana: I'm honestly sorry. Mark: We missed you last week. Rana: Oh, I missed you guys too. Yeah, it's honestly really lovely to have a space to share all of that random stuff that I save and hopefully make a meaningful difference for someone else. Mark: So, I mean, we've been working together in a variety of contexts for a while, but I was gonna ask Do you have any questions for us? About anything Rana: Oh, I wasn't prepared for that question. Mark: I wasn't either. It just showed up. Rana: I don't think so. I mean, honestly I mean I haven't interacted as much with you Yucca, but I know Mark, I've spent many of afternoon of mine with you in the mixers and, and the adult salon and all of our like, various events. So nothing is immediately coming to mind. Yucca: Just wait till we stop hitting the record button and then it'll all come Right. Mark: Right Yucca: you wake up in the middle. Oh, I should've. I should've asked. Yeah. Mark: Well, at any time, honestly, it doesn't have to be now. Any, any time.  Rana: Did you have any other questions for me? Mark: I didn't, how about you, Yucca? Yucca: Well, earlier on you talked in the beginning about different content that you had started watching and getting and interested in kind of before you had found the atheopagan community. Are there still are there particular content creators or platforms that you still really enjoy that you'd wanna share? That you can think of, Rana: That's a great question. I do find value in some of them. I am not sure that I would share them just because they think Yucca: sound like you're Rana: has a different. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Rana: Yeah, and everyone has a different comfort level with a level of animism or I hesitate to say woo. Some of it touches on that sometimes. I think it would make more sense for me to share it in like a more context dependent way, but yeah, I've occasionally found things here and there that I do have an easier time connecting. just because I know that Ethiopianism exists. Like I've found my corner right? Because it, it felt a lot more lonely to be like, man, I like some of this, but some of this is just not for me. And. It's, it's just, it's really nice to have a place that I don't have to have that. Yeah. But feeling of needing to ignore certain parts of it because it kind of ruins it to a degree, you know? Yucca: kind of increases that lonely feeling you were talking about, right? Rana: Mm-hmm. Yucca: almost fit in, but you don't quite fit in, so it just kind of makes you feel a little bit more lonely, cuz you found the, you found it, but then it's not really, it's not really quite right. Rana: and I've, I've felt like I've balanced between the poles of many identities over time. And so, like I said, it, it's always notable to me when I'm pretty distinctly feeling like, oh, I belong here. This is my, this is my place. So, Mark: You know, I was, I was thinking about that feeling and that, you know, that that sort of like octagonal peg with a round hole feeling where it's like, you can almost get in there , but it's, it's not quite right. And it occurs to me that one of the things I think that makes atheopagan more able to be more of a complete fit for people than many other Pagan spaces is that we have articulated principles that, that we've got written values that we all cohere around. Because, you know, if you just run up, if you run up the Pagan flag and hold an event, You know, the, the value sets of the people who show up may be radically different, and in some cases, you know, they may just not be people that you want to hang around if they're neo-Nazis or whatever. So I, I kind of feel like, you know, we've, we've got this nice walled garden and we keep inviting more and more and more people in, but at least, at least there's an understanding. You know, what you're expected to value. You know, valuing, respecting people and valuing critical thinking and you know, all those kinds of things. And I think it may make it a little bit easier for people to find that sense of belonging than some other spaces. Rana: Yeah. I think that is where structure is really an asset to this group. I think you're really right that the principles were something that I saw quickly off the bat. When I learned about the group, it became very clear to me what the group valued and outright the rules of the group, and it reminded me of the principles of Burning Man, which are a little bit different. That was a community that I was involved in and was really meaningful to me. And when I think back on it had a similar parallel of trying to find meaning and make meaning with other people without religion being a part of it. And I have felt that the increasing interest in events like that are. Possibly because a lot of younger people are not interested in organized religion, and I think it's very natural for us to find those spaces to have connection and meaning together in a way that's bigger than consumerism Mark: Mm-hmm. Rana: bigger than. Even just a, a friendship, which I'm not devaluing a friendship in any way, but like I said, I think, I think having a larger group community space is just a very different asset. Yucca: Right. There's different ways of relating. There's, it's a different kind of connection. Yeah. Rana: Exactly. Yeah. Mark: Yeah, there's a whole, I've thought about this a couple of times and I've never written about it, cuz I can't quite get, I can't get a grip on it yet. I don't, I'm not entirely sure what I want to say, but the whole phenomenon of transformational festivals, Is a thing that's happening all over the world in Burning Man. And the associated regional burns are an example of that. But I mean, it grew out of like rave culture in the nineties and it's hybridized with neo paganism quite a lot. There's a lot of people in those circles that are also involved with neo paganism. I just, I think it's very interesting. I, I. Especially younger people are looking for meaningful, transformational, joyous, ecstatic experience, and they can't have that if they follow the rules of the over culture, cuz the over culture doesn't want them to have it. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: So communities like ours that give people permission to seek pleasure as long as it doesn't hurt anybody I, I think, are, are a part in a way, even though, you know, when we had an in-person event in Colorado, it wasn't a rave. But even so, I think communities like ours are kind of ongoing, lasting examples of how those kinds of values can be promulgated, and that's one of the reasons why I'm excited about. Yucca: Hmm. Rana: Yeah, I've been very optimistic seeing so much increased conversation and discussion and normalization of things like chosen family, having a really intentional community of people around you and. Things like queer relationships, polyamorous relationships, and really building your social circle. And I think this is really kind of an extension of that and an opportunity to connect with others to keep building on that. I very much value the friendships and connections that I. Through the Ethiopia Pagan community, and I don't know how I would've made those kinds of connections without it really. Mark: It's good, it's it fit. That's just good. It's, it's, Yeah. I, I, I feel like we did something good. Rana: We're definitely on the right path, I think, and it's a matter of. You know, like we're discussing right now with the council, coming up with strategy, figuring out what to prioritize in terms of I apparently need to think about this. Yucca: Well, where to, where to put the, the energy that we have as, as volunteers that we've got a limited amount of energy, right? And, and where can that do the most? Where can that help the most? Where can that serve the most? And that's what we're looking to do, right. Mark: right. Rana: Exactly. Mark: Well, and one of the things that can really endanger organizations that are kind of in the startup phase is too many opportunities. You, you can have death by opportunity if you kind of go chasing off in all different directions. Reminds me when I was a kid, I have sisters who are twins who are 10 years younger than me, and inevitably when we were out in public, they would run in opposite directions you can, you can kind of get your energy scattered that way if you don't have priorities and a strategy for what you're trying to achieve. So I think it's really timely that we're doing that now. Yucca: Mm Rana: And like you said, yakka, we're, we're making the most of having limited volunteers and, you know, always looking towards onboarding new ones. So creating a process for that and, and moving, moving towards that. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: Well this has been a great conversation, Rana. Thank you so much for coming on the, on the podcast and, and for everything that you're doing for us. It's it's really a pleasure to, to serve with you and to Yucca: and inspirational. Mark: with you in the community. It is, it's really, Yeah, that, that big vision is really inspirational, so thank you. Rana: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. I really enjoyed listening to this throughout the pandemic, and I always felt like I was listening to friends sit and chat over tea. Like it's really. Lovely, and thank you again , for the invitation to be on the council and to officially become a part of leadership. It's been really wonderful to be able to contribute, and I'm really looking forward to seeing us grow and move forward. Mark: Absolutely. Oh, I, I have to put in, I have to put in one plug. We are, we are doing a, a calendar project in the atheopagan communities on both Discord and Facebook. It's being coordinated by a community member named Ren, and we are accepting. Submissions for the calendar. We're going to print calendars as a fundraiser next fall. So, if you are interested in contributing to the atheopagan calendar email us at the Wonder Podcast Queues the Wonder Podcast qs all one word@gmail.com and we'll put you in touch with the the people that need to, you need to be connected. Yucca: Yep. Okay. Thank you. Mark: Okay. Thanks so much. Yucca: Bye everybody.      

Mark: Well, look, it's really it's a, it's a long journey. I've read your book, I've read many books, I've been in this game for a long time. It's very difficult to sum it up in literally minutes, I suppose. But after reading a book just recently, and listening to all your podcasts a lot lately, I've delved into a lot of it and taken many, many things out of each person's story, which I can resonate wholeheartedly with. But I probably got into Options back in 2006. And I've probably come and gone with it a lot. I've started and stopped, due to various reasons, obviously, life, I've got kids and family and work commitments and stuff like that. But it's always been, I suppose, a hobby. But trying to make that jump or trying to get into it. Full time is obviously difficult for lack of funds or lack of time and effort. I don't know, there's always seems to be something that comes up that stops me from progressing. Having said that, I'm a pretty committed person. I'm pretty disciplined. I've been doing it now for a long time. But like, if you look through him on the table here, I've got trading stuff sitting everywhere, notes. Mark: I've crunched the wheel so many times I've done the shiny diamond thing. I've gone from one program to another. I've spent numerous amounts of funds on various programs and different services such as yourself. I don't know this Option Genius has been around in my life, I suppose, on and off. So I don't know like I've all I'm a big advocate for what you say and what you do. I've wholeheartedly believe that I've been selling options for a long time I've done credit spreads, I've done strangles I've done butterflies, I've done covered calls, I've done a lot of those strategies, or centered around selling options. And I've been doing it for a long time. But for some reason, I just can't seem to break through the ceiling, I just cannot seem to be there to go from this hobby, like training interest that I seem to be involved with, to getting to that next level. I suppose I when I found out that we're going to do this call. Set last night I sat down I tried to write out things that would be good to discuss or to ask you. And I've got like all this paper sitting you have all these notes that I've made, as you would have seen in my email, it was quite lengthy. I think one of the assistants said all that email is probably the longest one I've ever received, that I really okay then.  Allen: Like, you know, because we get, we get lots of emails every day and some people, right? Some people write two paragraphs, but when somebody goes in deep, and they really share their, you know, their soul pretty much. It's like, Hey, I've been doing this and this and this, and this, and I don't know what's going on, then, like we you can feel it when somebody is really, really wanting to make it work. And so those most of those get passed on to me. And when I read it, I was like, alright, you know, we need to we need to talk about this. Because if you've been doing this for years, then like, I have not doing my job. I've let you down in some way that because you know, you shouldn't still be feeling that way. I know. But it's not uncommon. You know, we come across many, many people that come to us and say, hey, you know, I've been doing this for a long time. But you know, it never clicked for me. But you will.. Mark: Yeah, I can see that. So many people that you talk to, you know, have the same they're trying and trying to trying to find the right system, the right setup the right, whatever it is just can't seem like I feel to break through that ceiling. Like you're stuck underneath the water. You're swimming hard. You're learning this, you're watching that you're reading this you're researching. You're looking at the charts to pair with analysis, paralysis, all that stuff. And I've made lots of trades. I've done lots of trading. I've been I've been I won't say successful because clearly we wouldn't be on this call otherwise, but I've made money, but I've also lost money. I've got scars, I've got all that stuff I've had I've had losses, but still here I am battling looking at all that stuff that you talked about in the book in that book really resonated with me there's a lot of stuff in there that I thought I can do this. I know I can do it. Why am I doing it? Why it's just what why does it elude me so much? Is it just a pipe dream and more and more just a duck on the water swimming and just never gonna get there? I don't know. Allen: So you know, when we when we got the email, when they forwarded to me, they asked me like, hey, what do you think the problem is here? Does he not know enough? And my answer to them was No, I think he knows too much. He knows too much. That's part of the problem. I'm just guessing here and I wanted to try to get to the root of it. But you know a lot of the times when so there's there's different things that you need. Everybody needs different things to in order to succeed in anything. Obviously, you know, you need to know what to do you need to how to do it. You know, you have to practice you have to put in the time. You need somebody Do that can actually has doing it like coach that's teaching you, you need a team or a teammate or somebody to do it with. These are all different things that that can help. But a lot of times we come across people that have been, you know, bouncing around from program to program, like you said, they know all the different strategies, they know everything, they know how it works. Some people come and they know it better than I do. You know, so they're, they're telling me that, oh, the Vega this is this and the Gamma and the theta and the row and all this other, you know, they're touching on the Greeks, and they're managing by the Greeks, and they're doing all these complicated stuff. But they're like, it's still not working, why is it not working? So I think, if it can work for somebody else, it can work for you. And I firmly believe that in just about anything, except maybe sports, you know, should somebody else could dunk the ball, maybe I can't dunk the ball. But in trading, a lot of it is I think, 80 to 90% of it is menta. Mark: I've totally, totally, totally. Allen: So there might be something that is holding you back, or, you know, maybe like I don't know, so let's get into it. So now you've mentioned a couple of times that you haven't gotten to the next level. So tell me what is the next level? What is the goal that you're trying to get to? Mark: Well, I think the goal is the same for everybody's, you know, everyone's trying to make income, like, right, I have a I mean, I'm in I'm a cop. So I work in a profession that I see myself coming to a fork in the road. I've been doing this job now for over 14 years, for 10 years. And before that I was in a private industry, we had a family business. So I understand all the dynamics of running a business, how it operates. We had a family business for over 30 years. And long story short, we got out of that for various reasons. And then I got into the government sector, which is a totally different psyche altogether, which took me some time to try and come to terms with. Having said that, I've forever in my wife, and I've come from a family that has been heavily invested in property, shares, businesses, and stuff like that. So I've always had this belief that I can do something with my life that will be able to produce constant income money have investments, like I've had investment properties, and I've done the share thing now on the option things for a long time. And I'm not destitute, I'm not desperate, I have a house, I have three beautiful children and family sort of stuff. But I want to go to the next level I want to be able to provide, I want to be able to teach my kids trading, I want to be able to show them how to invest all the money stuff, like all that sort of thing. I feel as if I'm promoting this stuff, yet, I haven't really truly succeeded myself. I haven't got to the level where they can say okay, Mark, look at you've got all this great stuff, and that show me how to do it. And when they do ask me, I'm sort of thinking so I will not really, I can talk about it. I've read about it, and I'm doing it, but I really haven't got what you think I have. Having said that. Getting back to the trading side of it. I think I want to have this as a business, I can see the potential in it as you can do from home. It's all in front of you in the net. I don't have to go out I don't have to be injured tree. I understand that. I do know a lot about it. I understand all those things you just mentioned with the Greeks and what not right? And I probably do, I probably do know too much. And I do want to keep it simple. I do say to myself, when I'm doing it, just keep it simple. Why do you need to have this indicator? Why do we need to be having that? I totally agree with what you've promoted and talked about for so long. And I think I was probably watching on Option Genius probably before you even started doing podcasts. But over the years, I've come and gone. I've been involved with and I've been with other things. And I've on and off as we mentioned before, right? All right. Does that help answer the question? Allen: No. So what what what do you mean by the next level? Is it an income? Is it is it a certain amount of money in the account is a certain amount of money every month? Where it is it that you say okay, now I've arrived now I have achieved my goal? What what is that number so that you would be able to be like, Yes, I feel happy though. Mark: Okay, so I've sort of thought about that. And I've put a number down to 10k. Now that's a pie in the sky dream. That's a pie in the sky dream. I know. And that's a long way off being achieved. I would just like to be able to see some consistency, all that stuff that you promote consistent, being profitable, and I can do that. But then as you know, you get one or two trades that wipe you out, wipe it back to zero and then it got to start again. Right? So just not we're just not getting that constant. Right? What do they call it.. Allen: Okay, so 10k is the goal. Now, it's not a it's not a it's not a pipe dream. It's so 10k is the goal. If you got 10k every month, you'd be happy. You'd be like okay, I've made it you know I'm accomplishing And that this stuff is actually working. Finally, this stuff is actually working if you were making 10k a month. So tell me, what is it that you think is keeping you from doing that? Mark: Well, clearly a lack of funds at this stage. But I have had numerous accounts where they've had a substantial amount of money in there, but I've just brought it right back down to just doing one lots, until I can see the consistency and seeing that, the, that my trading works, it's consistent, well, then we can scale up. So I'd rather than that, so I'm happy to do just one month a month, which means I'm not gonna make 10 grand in the near future, right, those types of trades, but we can scale that up at a later date. Allen: But what do you so if you were to say, hey, Alan, give me this one thing, and I know I can make tons of money. What is that one thing? Mark: Well, I suppose it's like a business plan, isn't it, like a franchise to follow a step by step thing, do this, do this, do this, do that put it on, obviously, there's a little bit of, there's gonna have to be a little bit of a thought process and feel for the market. But I suppose I need a plan. Like I know how to put the trade on, I know how to do a credit spin on it, for example, but I suppose I need a set of rules or business plan or like something to follow. So that way, I can just follow the recipe for a particular day, not particular strategy, but it's very hard to identify it or pinpoint it down to one thing. Like I've written all these notes in the book and pages and pages of all these things that you're discussing the iPad and whatnot, and try to answer those questions myself. Like, what am I looking for? What's stopping me I've written here a recipe, a plan, a template to follow rules to follow or to abide by tools, treat it like a franchise, for instance. So that way, I'm not deviating to another thing. So I have it on my wall and write down Am I following those particular plans? Does that is that sort of answer the question?  Allen: So do you not have any trading plans right now? I mean, you said you were in different programs and everything so did you do you have any that you've been using as a guideline as a framework? Mark: The cover I've written things down in the past but I suppose sticking to it, or having it visible is difficult. I suppose someone to write one with me or for me to say right this is a trading plan. This is what you need to have in it to follow I suppose I haven't really been given a choice like if it says write a trading plan, write down this stuff, write it down, but I suppose I just want to try it like this is what's going on my head just put the trades on just put the trades on work with the probabilities. Yeah, it should work out. Allen: Okay, and are you conservative or aggressive? Mark: I believe I'm conservative in the sense where at the moment like with the one loss, so like, if I was aggressive, I'd be going right I'm pretty positive this trades gonna work of two or five, or 10 lot but at the moment, it's like let's just hold back and do one more being conservative. I think I can be aggressive if I need to be but on how Allen: And how much percentage return are you looking to make? Mark: I knew you're gonna ask me that question. And I don't actually have a percentage. I've just I suppose a bad way of saying it but I just keep putting the trades on and hope that the probabilities work out so I don't have a particular percentage amount that I've got Okay. When you ask that question Allen: obviously so obviously you know, just putting the trades on hoping they work out that's not working. So we're gonna have we're have to refine this What strategy do you think most appeals to you? Mark: Well, obviously I've been working on the credit spread that's probably the one thing that I've done the most of the credit spreads like I've done in many others, but that's the one that I've probably done the most so in the last few years. Allen: Okay, and are you keeping track record of all the trades that you've been doing? Mark: No, I don't. I have written them down in the past. I do try to follow that put it in a journal, but over time, it just becomes cumbersome I suppose like it's writing it all down. I don't I don't stick to it. It's probably the kind of problem there. Allen: So what you said is you want to franchise, and in the franchise are going to tell you the first thing is to document everything you're doing. Because we cannot tell what's going wrong if we don't know what you already did. So having a firm plan that says okay, I'm gonna put this trade on and writing down why, why am I putting this trade on? Because it's moving higher because it's got news coming out because it's high. It's, you know, very volatile right now or the IV is off or whatever their reasoning is, you put the rig, you put it there, you write the trade, you record what happened, why or why did not work out. And then after you do a whole bunch of these, you can go back and look at it and say, okay, every time I do a trade that's at, you know, 35 Delta, it works wonderfully. But every time I do any other Delta, it doesn't work. So I'm just going to do that 35 delta. So if you want to find your own trading plan, then this is how you do it. Now, this is a long way to do it, it's going to take a long time, because you're going to have to test different things and try different things and see what's working, what's not working. But it would be one way for you to create your own plan based on what you find you're more comfortable in, because some people they come in and they tell me, hey, you know what I want to do Credit spreads, and I want to do 2025 Delta spreads, some people don't want to do five Delta spreads, you know, so everybody's comfortable with different things. And then based on the amount of credit they get, then we can figure out okay, how do we how do we manage the trade, some people should be not managing the trade at all, they should just be getting in and getting out at a certain amount. Some people, they can go ahead and say, hey, my trade is going bad, I'm going to, you know, adjust it or do something else with it. So depending on what we're thinking, when we get in will dictate what we do when we're in the trade. Mark: So now that I know what I do for trades, there are particular entry signals that I looked for, like I don't just go and find a stock and then look up a chain and then play delta and put it on. I do have, like, for example, I think there's market volume, I use volume. So obviously, when volume is increasing, I'll have them put on a put trade, obviously, when the stocks turning or progressing. And obviously over the three averages, like you say, things like that. So there are particular indicators, and not too many I do try and keep it fairly simple, I believe, before I put anything on, so I do try and put the weight in my favor. And the advocate of that, of course, by using those some small indicators to try and get it on sideways or progressing in the in the direction that we think it's going. So I do look at that I'm not a big person, I'm gonna use a 35, Delta, or 45, or whatever. Right? Okay, I understand the Delta side of things. But it's more about volume, I suppose at this stage and what. Allen: Okay, so that that's good to know. Right? So I mean, what I would do is, I probably have a sheet, kind of like a checklist, you know, so get it out of your head, and onto an actual piece of paper, where every single trade you have to mark it off, you know, the volume is high, yes, you know, movement is this way or whatever, whatever your your things are, you check it off. One, two, three.. Mark: I actually have done that I can attest that I have done that I've written down, like when the bar gets lower than the level of bar, it's time to get in or when a turn when it points up. It's getting. So I have written most things down in the past. Yes. Allen: So that'll be your trade law right there. That's if you do if you have the discipline to do that, before you put in the trade, you'll you'll know at the end, okay. You know, just go back to that journal and be like, Okay, what worked and what didn't work? What are the patterns. And that's kind of the stuff that I was doing originally, when I was first starting to figure this stuff out, is look at every single one. And now I have my my checklist, where if there are two or three things that I cannot mark off, I don't put the trade on, because I know that hey, there's not enough, you know, these things are really important. I want them, I don't want to put a trade on without everything checked off. Allen: Now, that doesn't mean that I'm not going to lose, like you still lose on the trade with everything checked off. But like you said, you know, we're putting the odds in our favor. As many times if you have a checklist, like you said you did. That's your journal right there. And so before you put on the trade, you just mark it off, you know, check, check, check, check, oh, I can't check this one. Then later on, after the trades are done, you do 2030 trades, at least, then you can go back and look at and say okay, I lost on these three trades. What is the pattern I lost on these five trades? What is the pattern? And you might find a pattern, you don't have to but you might find something that say okay, these indicators, you know, they're not working or they are working. The other thing is, I mean, it's, it's really simple, right? You find the strategy that you want. And you said, Hey, I found the strategy. Second step is to find the trading plan, that you think you think will work and then is just test it and trade it and do it over and over over again. But the important part is that you have to stick to the plan. Do you think you stick to the plan, or is it? Is it a discipline? Mark: Tell me, tell me, what got you out? I've read your book or listen to your story. What part got you through that ceiling? Obviously, we're doing the same thing as we all do for such a long period of time. But there must have been something that clicked or something that you did or something did you get into? Was it a program for you? Was it someone that you got? Hold on What, what got you to that next level that we all tried to get to? Allen: It took time, it took discipline, there were a few things that really helped me. One was really sticking to the rules that I had set up. And really, it's about, you know, when it comes down to it, it's about putting the trades on with the odds in your favor as many ways as you can. And I learned about that later on, you know, having different different levels. But what I started to do, and the ones that I really started doing well on, and in the beginning, were iron condors. For some reason, that strategy really, really clicked with me. And I was like, Oh, my God, I gotta work. No, no, it doesn't work right now. But he's like, you know, that strategy really worked. And it was like, Oh, I can adjust it. So I might never lose money in the trades. It's just really awesome. But I still was having trouble following the rules. Because, you know, you have to work that. So there were there were a few ways. Number one is my wife got involved. Allen: So every day, she would, like I would have a list of all of my trades, and I would have all the rules, like when I needed to do what, so every day at a certain time, she would come upstairs because I was working from home and she wasn't she wasn't working. So she would come upstairs. And she would ask me, Okay, let's go through every single trade one by one by one. And so she'd be she'd have her notes. And she's, okay, this trade on Russell. Where is it now? And they go, Okay, this, it's up this much money, or it's down this much money? Okay. When are you going to adjust? Well, when this happens? And they said, where is it now? Say, Oh, it's right here. So do you have to adjust it? No, not yet. Okay, cool. Next one. All right. I did this. Okay. Why did you do this trade? And when are you going to adjust it? Should you have adjusted it? Yeah, I should have adjusted already. Why didn't you adjust it? Ah, I don't know. She's like, Oh, what the hell are you doing?  Mark: All that is basically you got your wife involved? Allen: I mean, not just involved, but she was holding me accountable. So I had to answer because she doesn't need to know anything about trading. But she just needs to look at my rules and ask me the questions like, hey, what's the trade doing? Is it up or down? Why have you not? What are you going to do about it? And if there is something to do about it, what are you going to do? So it's just asking yourself those questions every single day. And it helped. I used to do that on my own. But I would always ignore the answers. Because I didn't have anybody to answer to. It's like, oh, I'm a trader, I'm the boss, I make my I'll make the decisions. But when she came in, I knew I had to answer to her. And if I don't have a good reason, then I'm putting her money on the line as well. Right? I'm putting her future on the line as well. So we would have a discussion about that. So I knew in advance, I knew, Okay, she's coming at one o'clock, I need to make sure I got everything right. I'm doing everything right. Otherwise, we're gonna have an argument. And so I needed her. Like, in the beginning, I wasn't, I was I lost a lot of money. And so the only reason that I didn't have to go out and get a job was because she was patient with me. But it was part of it was like, she's going to be the boss, right? Until I turn it around. And until I break the ceiling, she's the boss. She's going to tell me what I can do what I cannot do based on how I'm doing. And so I call that my one o'clock, you know, fire drill. It's like every day at one o'clock, I still do it. I go through every single trade and I look at it and say okay, is this trade up or down? It's up. Okay, good. Allen: What happens if it goes down a little bit? Am I still going to be okay? Yes. Okay, move on to the next one. And so I don't have time to do that on 100 trades. So that's why I limit the number of trades I have. But every day I go in and I look at it and I monitor it I know where each trade stands. So that before it starts to get into trouble, I know and I can look at it and be like okay, this one I need to monitor this one I need to adjust early or this one I need to maybe just exit it because it's not acting right. It's not acting properly. So It kind of gives me you know, so having that while you go in every day and look at each trade, and everybody does that. But in order to you ask yourself the right questions, and then you have to do what you need to do. So just monitoring the trades, and just checking on them is not enough. You have to know, okay, this is my plan, and I have to do this, then you have to stick to it. And then if you have an accountability partner, or if you have a wife or a child, or whatever, if somebody comes in and asks you, hey, you were supposed to do this, well, why didn't you do it? And then you have to answer to them. So when you have somebody else there, that automatically, I mean, that instantly made me better, like instantly, the first day, second day she came in, you know, I just I just started following the rules, because I knew I had to, I had to give her an answer. So that was one of the things that did it. Allen: The other thing was that I realized that this is a long term game. And so you've read the passive Trading Book. So I wrote that book, because I saw that if you're only selling options, eventually, you don't like the options can go against you. So what I mean by that is, in the financial crisis, when we had the financial crisis in 2008, there was everything was just going up and down. And so if I had options on if I trades on those trades lost, and then I could never get that money back. That's when I realized that, okay, you know, if I want to play the long game, if I want to be in this forever, I cannot let something else knock me out. I cannot let a COVID 19 pandemic knock me out, I can't let the financial crisis I can't let you know, the President making some decision and sending the stocks down, knocked me out. And so I started building up the foundation of stocks, and using those to generate capital on those. And the idea is, hey, I want to own the stocks as my foundation. But I want to use options as basically like a rocket ship, you know, so I wanted to boost the returns. So I'm gonna have conservative stuff in the in the main portfolio, you know, where I have the stocks, and I'm making money. Mark: I totally agree with all right. Yeah. Allen: So, you know, that was now Mark: I totally agree with all that, definitely. Allen: So you can't start off that way. Because it takes a lot of money to own that stocks. So in the beginning, you do have to get good at picking one strategy, getting good at it, just following it and being disciplined, and saying, Hey, I'm going to do this, and I'm going to follow it along. Now, again, long term, picture wise, every month, you're not going to make money, every trade is not going to make money. So you have to have that in your in your mindset that, hey, sometimes it's gonna work, and sometimes it's not. So there's lots of lots of little little things that you can improve on it. But the biggest thing that I'm seeing is that you have to follow the plan. Mark: So Allen, do you think that I would benefit? Like I know you're selling plenty of courses, promote what you promote in the book. And I totally agree with all that, I get it on one side. But if I was to do another course, such as yours, I my fear is, and we're just going down that same rabbit holes, as I've done before, hence why I'm confused as to why I can't seem to break that ceiling. If I was to go into a course such as yours, this one that you're the passive trading and whatnot, I worry that I really fear that a year I am going into it again, I'm doing another course. But I understand the strategy. I think now I need more of a coach, maybe I need maybe that one on one, maybe maybe that's what I need. Or maybe there are things that I'm not happy to admit to that I do that I need to be changed. I need to be molded stead of going down this direction on to be heading over in this little bit direction over here with my trading. I understand the why thing. That's a great thing in my voice. She's a great supporter of me. I am trying to I'm trying to get out of work. She works. I'm trying to get her out, keep trying and trying and time is your course gonna sit me on that path to freedom. Allen: So it's like, you know, I mean, I'll give you an example. Like when people go to college, right? They everybody's told go to college, go to college, some people they go to college, and they just they just party the whole time and they don't get anything out of it. Some people go and they study, study, study, study, study, and they get a good job. Some people go and they make lots of contacts, you know, they they meet, they make lots of friends. They meet lots of teachers so that when they get out, they know a lot of people and they have a good network and then that helps them so it's really up to each person individually. Now I would love to say that yes, every single person that takes my course makes them million dollars. But that's not the reality. You know, people come in, life happens, they take it seriously, they don't take it seriously. And, you know, that's, that's one part I cannot control. So I cannot tell you that, yeah, you know what, it's going to work for you just because it's, I'm amazing. And I'm a wonderful person, and it's just gonna work. 90% of it is on you, I can give you everything I know, I can do it with you. But again, the markets have to cooperate. Number one, and then number two, it has to click for you, you have to do it, and you have to practice it. And you have to stick to the plan. A lot of times when people come into my programs, and they tell me Oh, hey, you know, I'm doing XYZ, I'm like, but that's not what I have in the plan. Allen: That's not what I have in the program. They're like, yeah, no, but I'm changing. I'm like, okay, but have you done it my way? No, not yet. But then why did you join my program, you could do your own way. Without my program, you don't need to pay for my program, right? If you're going to pay for something. And if you believe that, hey, yeah, this guy knows what he's talking about this thing works, I think it works. If you're going to pay for it, then just follow that step by step by step and don't change it. Unless it works.  Allen: When it starts working, then only then would you say, Okay, now I'm going to, you know, change it up, because I think I can, I can be a little bit more aggressive, or, hey, I want to be a little bit more conservative, or I want to change it up a little bit. But you don't do that until it's always working. So the problem is that people that have been doing this for a long time, they know all the strategies, they've listened to many other coaches, you know, they come in, and they're like, Well, you know, I don't like that one thing, I'm going to change, I don't like that thing, I'm going to change. And so they start doing it their own way and they don't listen. And so you can't take stuff from this course and this course and this course and mash it into a Frankenstein, and then tell me "Oh, it didn't work?" Well, because I don't know why that guy told you to do that. And I don't know why that other guy told you to do that. Or the only thing I know is if you do it this way, you'll get the similar results that what I'm doing. Now, if you add and change it, then I can't help. So, you know, like you're saying that we have, I think there's like four pillars that I tell people that people need. So if you want to learn how to do something, you need these four pillars. Number one is you need the right strategy, which you've already said is, hey, that's the credit spread, right? Number two, you need the trading plan that works. So number three, is you need other people to do it with because you're doing it all alone, like you said, you know, you might need a wife, if you don't have a wife or partner like that, then you can have a community or other students that are doing it the same way. Allen: And then number four, you need a coach that can actually show you what he's doing, because he's still doing it. And he's actually doing it right now, instead of somebody that said, oh, yeah, I was a market maker 30 years ago, and I don't trade anymore. So I think those are the four things and depends on which everybody needs. So the coaching part is the one that takes the most time. And that's why those coaching programs are the most expensive. Allen: In my passive trading course. You know, we give you the trading plan. It's like okay, here, this is the plan, these are the rules, you follow it and, you know, good luck. But there's no one on one coaching. There's no group, you know, where we are, where we're doing and looking at the trades. And so when we have that passive trading course, it's a cheaper course. And so people would join it, and they would go through the modules. And some people would have a lot of success, some people wouldn't. So I said, What, what's the problem? Why are they not? Why is it not working? And I realized that it would help if they could just spend a lot more time with me. And so we created that credit spread mastery course, where every week, we get on the call, and we're just looking for trades, we're managing trades, we're adjusting trades, doing it together. So the point of that is, here's the rules. Here's the trading plan. Now let's do it together, over and over and over and over and over and over. And so once you have that habit of doing it the same way over and over and over the other, the other ideas, the other habits kind of die off. So I've seen that that program does deliver results. So we back it up and we say hey, look, if you're in our program, and the program doesn't work, like you don't if you're not profitable in our program, then we keep you in the program. We keep working with you. We keep you in the class until you become profitable. And so even if the markets not cooperating That's fine, we'll learn how to manage it together. And then we'll stay longer in the program, if you'd have to be.. Mark:  So with your target trading alum, obviously, it does take a type of market. And obviously, that's why through the last six months with Covid whatnot, it would be easy Earth to do that type of training, because obviously, it just went straight up didn't keep they're still on put, credit spreads the load of was money for Jim, in a market such as what we're in now, which is up and down, up and down. It's far more difficult, isn't it? Allen: Currently it is more difficult, doesn't mean it's impossible. So we do have to dial back our, we have to dial back our expectations. So last year, the year before, you know, making 10% a month, 7-8% a month, not a big deal, it was pretty simple. You know, put the trades on most of them work out in anybody, and everybody was making money. Like any you know, you could buy anything, and it was going up any everyone is making money. This is a market where you have to be really good at selection, trade selection, and management. So you have to know when things are turning around, and when to get out before they get really bad. Allen: So the trade management, sticking to your stop loss is very important right now. And those are things that most people get afraid of, you know, so it's like, okay, I put the trade on, it should work. And then oh, no, the stocks turning around, what do I do what I do, and they don't do anything. So if your thing is part of, if you're doing as part of a group or in a program, then be like, hey, we need to get out, we need to get out, get out, get out. Some people let people know, Mark: There's that mental component, that's the biggest part. And as I've gone along this journey, if all these years, I've realized more so in the latest year, it's not about the strategy. It's not about all that stuff. That mental side of it, it's 80-20, Mark Douglas, the book, the trading zone, I listened to that over and over and over again, and various other podcasts and whatever other things, but trying to pull the trigger when you're in a loss is it wasn't so hard, we put this trade on, it was gonna work a met the probabilities, it was all looking good, it was under the over the top of the averages. I had volume, blah, blah. But all of a sudden, now I'm underwater again. And here we go again, and then I've got to pull a trigger to get out to take that loss. Mark: And I have taken some big losses in the past, I've had to pull the trigger, just recently with the weekly trading system. And when that I mean, there's Solomon says, I've been there for a couple of weeks, again, I've been on and off over the over many years. And all of a sudden, now I'm having to pull the trigger again to get out because we lose money. Like it's hard. It's another scar, isn't it another scar, not a scar, it's another get back down there. You know, I don't want to see you do any good. It's difficult, you know, and that's that mental side of it is arguments or trading? Allen: Yep. The emotions, you know, the emotions have to be kept in check. So there's different ways that you could do that, you know, one, one of the ways is people say that you divorce or divorce yourself from the outcome. So whether you win or lose, doesn't matter make a Mark: ..difference? Exactly what I totally agree with that. And that skill is very difficult. Allen: Yeah, your job is to just follow the plan and stick to the plan. And if you can do that, eventually, over the long run, it'll work out, you know, maybe you have losing trades, that's fine. But over the long run, it should work out. So too much of it, like you said, you know, like, oh my god, I'm, I'm going to be negative again, oh, my God, I'm gonna have to pull the trigger. And oh, my God, you know, when you have that kind of reaction, that compounds and it just makes it all, it makes it much harder to get out of the trade when there is a loss. The other there's one lady, she told me something that really worked for her. She goes, You know what, this is not my money. This is God's money. And what what are you talking about as God's money? She goes, Well, I use this money. And I use the gains from the money to do good. Because they use it for charity work. So she's like, I don't need the money to live. Because I have enough income I have enough. You know, I have I have money coming in that I live off of. But this is my trading money. And so I take the money that I make, and I give it away to charity, and I do good things with it. So it's really God's money, and I cannot lose God's money. There's no way I can lose money. And so if I'm if I'm going negative, that the trade is losing, I get out right away because I don't want God mad at me because it's not my money. So that's another way you could look at it. That you know, again, it's it's taking yourself out of the outcome, you know, and it's not like okay, it's not under my control. So you've got the wife coming in and asking you what you're doing and why it's working or why it's not working and being accountable. You have you know, not looking at the outcome just getting better as a trader, just hey, I need to do my skills, whether it wins or not, that's not up to me. That's up to the market, I can't control that. But I can follow my plan. That's up to me. The other thing is, you know, not looking at it in emotional point of view, like, Hey, this is not my, maybe this is my kid's mind. Maybe this is, you know, God's money, however you want to look at it, but it's not yours. So if you lose it, it's bad. Like, that's the worst thing to happen. You know. So there's, there's three different ways that you can mentally overcome the different obstacles. But again, I think one thing that we haven't talked about yet is to simplify, right? So you've done all the different strategies, and I'm sure, you know, some of it is creeping in. And, you know, it's like, oh, you know, I got to do this, or I'm going to, I'm going to wait for this indicator, or I'm going to wait for these Bollinger Bands, or the Fibonacci, or the technicals, or any of that stuff, the more you simplify it, the easier it becomes to actually follow through with it. And so I think, you know, just one strategy, not chasing after the shiny object, you know, it's like, Hey, make a decision. If it's spread, spreads, and that's the only thing you focus on, and you get rid of everything else, you stopped listening to everything else, you unsubscribe from all the emails, you know, whatever, whatever service that you choose, like, Hey, I'm going to, I'm going to follow this plan, I'm going to, you know, if you've taken a course, maybe you've already taken a course, you have a course that you've tak`en and be like, Okay, I like this course, I'm going to follow this course, we'll get rid of everything else. Just go through it. Master that and don't do anything else until you know what that is, until you get the results that you're supposed to get it. In the beginning, when I started screwing up, like I would learn something, and then I would do good for a little bit and then I would mess up. And then I would do good, then I would mess up. So I was like, What the hell do I do? Well, I would always go back to the basics. I would imagine that I don't know anything. And I would go back to step one. Okay. What is a call? What is the put? What am I doing here? What is the strategy? How am I supposed to put it on? What are the rules and I gotta follow them step by step by step, not like, oh, you know, I'm gonna, I think this stock is gonna go down or or, you know, there's a Fibonacci retracement level, and there's some support here. So I don't have to adjust. No, forget all that stuff. I don't know any of that stuff. All I know, is the strategy and my trading plan. And that's it. And so that was, you know, you go back to the basics. And that will change your mentality of it, like, Okay, how do I manage the trade? How do I deal with this? Allen: Again, if there's other things involved, like stress, you know, if you're under a lot of stress, you're going to make the wrong decisions. If it has to work. If I have to make money this month, from my trades, you're going to make the wrong decisions. It's not going to work out in the long term. So there was a there was something another trick that one of our one of our students taught me. And now everybody can't do this. Most people can't do this. But what he does, is that he takes whatever money he makes trading this year. He will live off that next year. So when he's trading next year, he doesn't have to live off that money. Because he already has the money set aside from the last year. If that makes sense. Mark: You need a big bankroll sounds like a real estate agent. Allen: Yeah, you need Yeah, he was. Yeah, he was. He was a politician. But, um, he has obviously, other people's money then. So I mean, he did have, you know, he had, he had a large account to do that. But eventually, that would be the best thing to do. You know, you have you already know your expenses are covered. Right? Now, you're only focusing on the plan and focusing on on just winning and just trading properly. It's not it takes the emotion out of so whatever you can do, whatever trick you can use to get that emotion out of it, that will make you a better trader. One, one more thing that that that that I've seen is happening to me is, the more you do it, the more of a habit it becomes. So if you do, you know, 50 trades, that's a lot better than five trades, but 500 trades is a lot better than 50 trips, if you do them properly with the right practice. So eventually, you get to the point where Oh, it's just another trade. It's not a big deal. It's just another trade. There's another one coming. So if I get if I hit my stop loss, yeah, it hurts. I hate it. But it's Just another trait, you know, I'm going to move on, move on to the next one, move on to the next one, because every month is a different ballgame. So you start over, you get to start over again and again and again. And so that is another trick that you would help in the long run. But again, you know, you have to, in before all of that happens, you have to have the confidence that this actually works. Mark: So what do I truly do believe in? Allen: Yes, you say that you say that. But then you also say that, you know, I can't do it. It's not working. It's not working. But you, you you've heard it that it works, you want to believe that it works. But I don't think you have that conviction yet that it works. And so the only way to get that conviction is to get it done for yourself. Right? And so it might be that you take a maybe you take a step back, and you go even simpler. And you say you don't want not the credit spreads, how about I do something like maybe a naked put, right, in a naked put, I'm going to make money if the stock doesn't go down. And it'll expire. And then I'll sell another one. And I'll sell another one. And I'm going to sell it far out of the money. So that I just when I just make that 20 bucks, or that $30 or whatever it is that small amount I'm just going to make month after month after month trade after trade I'm going to make and if the stock drops, okay, no fine, I can buy the stock, no big deal, I'll buy the stock. And then I'll sell covered calls on that stock. And so the covered call will expire, and I'll make something the covered call was expired, the next month will expire, and I'll make something so you build up that confidence that you know what, there is a way to do this. That's another option, you know, if you want to go that route, so you really got to figure out like, okay, you know, it's a, it's a personal thing, I wish I could just tell you that, hey, this is the one thing you need to do. But for everybody, it's different. And unless I spent a lot more time with you, unless I see all of your trades, unless I see you know, your emotion, how you handle the emotions, I won't be able to tell you. So that's kind of like in our in our program, what we do is we tell we give everybody a spreadsheet, and we say, hey, look, you have to fill out the spreadsheet, you have to put every single trade on the spreadsheet. And then they shared with me so that I can go in and I can look at them. You know, I could look at the tray. And I'll go in I'll see like, why did he do this trade? This doesn't make any sense to me. And I'm calling this Hey, John, why did you do this tray? Allen: And he goes, well, no, that's not gonna work. And he goes, okay, okay, fine, I'll do it. All right, done. You know, and if they're doing all the trades, right, then it's probably working. And most of the time, it's not working, like if they're not making money, then we can identify, Okay, what are what is not going right? You know, there was one of our current students, he was doing several trades, and he was still negative. So I looked at his spreadsheet, and I'm like, Okay, what's going on? What do I see, and his trade entries were great. You know, he was picking the right stocks, he was doing it properly. But whenever he lost, he would lose a lot more than he should have. He just wasn't getting out early on time. And so that was the biggest thing is like, you're not getting out. This is it, you know, your losses are too big. Doesn't matter how many trades, you win, your losses are still too big, you're still going to be negative. And so we worked on that. And then over time, he got better at getting out earlier and earlier and earlier. But he had, you know, he had somebody to look at that and to point it out, and to hold him to it. So that eventually he did it over and over and over again. And then by the end of the class, he was positive. He was like, Yeah, I fixed it. Again, that's all you need to do. That was he needed that one thing, everything else is simple. The training plan I could give you, you know, you could go do it on your own. But the discipline part of it, that's sometimes where we need help from somebody else. And so whether you know, it might be a wife might be somebody else, it might be a trading partner, somebody you work with, it might be a coach. So I think that might be one thing that you could implement. Mark: So just quickly, what what's the key points in a trading plan make like entry criteria, stop losses or that sort of stuff. Is there anything else that I can many points or rules should be in a trading plan? Like what I try and put a trading plan together, that is doable and simple to follow. To look at rather a complicated bloody list of all this crap, what would be a good trading plan? Allen: So, you want it to be simple and easy to implement. But you don't want it to be too simple, where it's just broad, like anything can happen. So, you know, I've seen people that have a trading plan that says, I'm going to do an iron condor on this stock 45 days to expiration, I'm going to sell a 10 Delta calls and sending out the puts. And that's it. That's my whole plan, and I'm just gonna sit and let it expire. That's a trading plan. It's very simple, right? You know, what you're going to do you know, what you're going to how you're going to do it, you know, what you're going to trade it on. And you know, when. And so now that pretty good plan doesn't work. So whoever's listening don't don't do that one. We've back tested that, and it didn't work. But there are, there are times there are several months where it does work, just because it has, you know, 80% probability, but over time, it doesn't. So that's the basics, you got to know what you want to trade, you need to know the strategy, you got to know what you want to trade. And then you have to know what constitutes a good setup. So when it comes to credit spreads, you mentioned credit spreads. So I like to do that, depending on the size of the of the trade, if it's a you know, maybe a $5000 $10,000 trade, then I'll go into I can go into a stock, or I'll go into an index ETFs are good, too. But they're their strikes are a little bit smaller. So you got to do a lot more contracts. But if I can go into a stock that has, you know, five point spreads, and I do 10 of them. That's a $5,000 trade. That'll work. Allen: So you can, what do you want to trade? And then what's the proper setup? So for me, again, I like to keep it simple. So if I see a stock that's trending, as moving up, or moving down, then I'm happy to trade it. Because I'm, I'm more of a trend follower, you know, so there's people that think, okay, if the stock is gonna go up, it's going up, it's going to keep going up until something big changes, there are other people that think the opposite. They're like, Oh, if it's going up, they just kind of come back down, because it's gonna do reversion to the mean. And sometimes that works. And sometimes it doesn't. So I don't really buy that I just like, hey, if it's going up, then it's telling me that it wants to go higher. So that's basically what I'm looking for. In a setup, I'm looking for the stock to tell me what it wants to do. So if I see a stock that's jumping up and down, no, I don't know what it's doing. I don't know what it's telling me, I can't understand the language, I'm not going to trade it. If it's going up, then I'm going to play it bullish. If it's going down, I'm going to play bearish. And sometimes, you know, it turns around and you get banked, but most of the time it's going to work out. So that's the kind of setup I'm looking for. And then over the years, you know, we've added other things to look at, you know, how do you make sure that all of your trades are not in the same sector? Right now, you know, right now, oil has been doing well. So all of the oil companies were doing great. But then they all turned around and went down all together. So if you have 10 trades on in different oil companies, that's not that's not diversification. That's the same trade. And so if they turn around, I'm going to turn on together. So that would be one way of putting the odds in your favor by having you know, only a small portion of your account in one sector. So you have to separate that. How do you diversify by time? You know, so not putting all your trades on on the same day. That's another way to do it. So you diversify by time. So there's so many different ways that you can do it, some of them might make sense to you some might not. And then, you know, we have other students that come in and say, Well, I do it, you know, I look for this also in my trade, like, Okay, if that's what you want to add to it, then add it. Don't subtract things that I've given you. But if you want to add to it, one student said that he likes to look at the weekly chart, I usually look at the daily chart, see how the stock is doing. He likes to look at the weekly chart as well. Allen: So I'm like, Okay, fine, you can add to it, you know, if it doesn't hit your criteria on the weekly chart, then just means you'll have less trades that qualify, but it's not gonna it's not going to put you into a trade that's going to hurt. So when you're basically you just have to figure out what you think is going to work. And then you have to test it. So back testing, and paper trading are really really, really helpful. Especially back tests, Mark: I find paper trading useless. To be honest. You lose interest very quickly. It's very easy to lose in that type of trading. Yeah, go ahead. I've done a little bit of paper trading and I've just found that I find okay, it's gone the wrong way. But I got it wrong. You just let it go. Because it doesn't mean anything. It has no significance, does it? Start with money trading? Yeah. You've got a connection heavenly with the with the live trading, because actually, it's not your money tied to it. Allen: It's not your money. It doesn't matter what the style of the trade does, you're only focusing on becoming a better trader, the goal is not to make more money, the goal is to become a better trader. Right? It's kind of like playing poker. It's like when you when people go to play poker, right? They'll professionals, they'll tell you that if they play their hand perfectly, and they lose, they're okay with it. Right? If they play, if they mess up, and they still win, they're still mad at themselves. Because I didn't play it right. I didn't play my cards, right? Even though I won, I don't care, because long run, it's going to hurt them. If they keep playing incorrectly in the long term, it's going to hurt them. So that's the goal to become the better trader. And the end results, the profits will take care of themselves. So paper trading is practice. That's all it is. Right? If you didn't need to take that on board. It's slow practice. Back testing, I prefer back testing way better than paper trading. Because you can go really quick. You know, if you if you come up with a plan, like okay, these are my criteria, I got these seven criteria on my trading plan. I'm going to enter when I see this, this and this. I'm going to exit when this happens. I'm going to adjust it this way If this happens, okay, I got that right and down, and that you can even just come up with your you can just guess No, I think this one's good. This one's good. That's my plan. Okay. You pick. You pick a stock, spy. Great, perfect. You go back to yours in time. January 1, put the trade on. How does it do? Oh, it made money. Awesome. Cool. February, how do you do made money? Great. March. Oh, we lost a lot of money. Doing it, huh? Okay. APR, how do you do? And then just do it month by month, I want back testing one month or one trade, you know, might take you five or 10 minutes. And so you can get years worth of practice in just a few days by back testing. And you'll find that Mark: It's something that I've never done is back testing. Is there a particular software that's adequate for that sort of stuff? I've never really looked down that line. I've heard about it. I've listened to it, but I've never actually really done it myself. Is there anyone ticular that would be worthy. Allen: The one that I use, the one that I use is called the option net explore. option that explore? Yeah, and I think I think they're based out of Great Britain. And so basically, it's, it's an options selling platform, you know, so it looks like your broker's platform, you put the trade on, and you go through it day by day by day. And it doesn't do it all for you, you actually have to look at it every single day. And if you want to make changes, you can make changes to it. That's what I like about it. There are other software's that you just put in the strategy, you press a button and it'll tell you "Oh, you made money or you lost money". That's not the point. We want to get better as a trader. Right. And so this one is like, Okay, I put the trade on, click a button. Oh, stock is down today. Do I need to do anything? No. Okay, next stage. Oh, stock is back up again. I don't have to do anything. Next stage. Oh, stock is down again. Oh, no, I'm at an adjustment point. Okay, what adjustment am I going to make? I'm going to do this adjust. Okay, cool. Let's see, did it work out? Go there forward today forward a day forward a day. Oh, expiration day stop. It worked. So it's, it's just, you know, there's no money, right? It's just about becoming a better trader. It's just about getting the practice doing it over and over and over again. So that I think would definitely help you as well. Mark: Okay, so one of the things obviously, we talked about discipline and the mental game, what's probably the best thing to follow, or to train your mental strength, like, as you said, like a paper trade or a live trade, you should be able to make that same decision, then in there without any emotional war. What's the best way to get to that level of trading where you whether you win or lose, it's just business as usual? Allen: Yeah, I've done to you have to divorce yourself from the outcome, whatever, whatever that takes for you. For me, in the beginning, it was getting my wife because I knew how I would have to answer to her. Mark: And scary Allen: I didn't have it. Exactly. It has to be scary. Because if you do it properly, she cannot get managed. Right? It's like, Hey, I followed the rules, babe. I did everything I was supposed to do. It still didn't work out and she'll be like, Okay, fine. That's no problem. But if you do not follow the rules, that's when she gets manage. And that's when it gets scary. So yes, you have to make it scary for you not to follow your rules, because a lot of us a lot of US traders, like, if we lose money, yeah, we don't we get mad about it, we're like, oh, man, I lost money, we feel bad about ourselves. But it doesn't hurt enough. You know, it's kind of like these people that say, Hey, I want to lose some weight. You know, so they make a goal, I'm gonna lose some weight, I'm gonna lose some weight, they tell everybody, and they do it for a few days, and then they give up. But then there's this website, that what, what this website, basically what it does is, you have to pick a, maybe a political party, or a person or some organization that you hate, you actually hate them. And you have to put up a lot of money and say, Okay, if I don't stick to my goal, this organization is going to get $5,000 or $10,000. So that makes you because it's now becomes a different level. It's not about just the money, or about doing the thing. It's like, okay, you know, let's say, for example, I don't want to give my money to anybody like the Save the whale Foundation, right? I don't want to, I don't want to give my money to the whales, I hate whales, I want them all to die. I don't want anybody to save the whales. So if I don't lose 10 pounds, they're gonna charge my credit card $5,000 and give it to the whales, and I hate whales. So I want to do whatever I have to do to lose that money to lose that weight. You know, because I don't want that well to be saved. You have to want something more than what you have. So there's, that's another psychological trick. No, in trading? We sometimes we get used to it, you know, it's like, oh, last? Oh, well, you know, we get used to it. And it just, we gotta it's just the mental part of it. Mark: Definitely, definitely, it's a huge part of it. Something I didn't I didn't realize, until much later down the track of trading, how big a part of mental side of it really is. Allen: I mean, if you find trying to avoid is difficult. Yeah. So if you find yourself having a problem with discipline, make it simpler, cut it down, make it as simple as possible. Find the trade that you know will like you know, the naked call or the naked put the covered call, these are very simple trades, they're really hard to mess it up. Right? On the naked put, if you get assigned the stock, hey, that's great. I just bought the stock much cheaper than it was before. And I'm going to own it. So you want to you want to do it on companies that you're going to own you want to own for a long period of time. That's the only way it really works. You can't you can't be selling naked puts on stocks that are just, you know, going crazy. That's the wrong way to do it. So you know, if you can simplify it, if you can find some way to have somebody else monitor you, and hold you to your fire, you know, hold your feet to the fire like, hey, you need to follow this, why aren't you doing this? Or, hey, it's not my money. Right? I'm doing it for somebody else. This is my kids inheritance, right? I cannot mess it up. So I have to follow the rules. One guy, when I was in, just after high school, I became an agent, a real estate agent. And as an agent, as a brand new agent, they tell you that you have to do a lot of things that you don't want to do. You have to talk to hundreds of people all the time, you have to cold call, people say Oh, Hi, are you doing? Do you want to sell your house? Oh, hi, do you wanna say, Well, you know, they have to keep doing things that you don't want to do. So it was like, okay, in the guy, the guy is like, hey, most of you guys are not going to do it. But if you want to be really, really, really motivated, what you need to do is go out and buy a fancy sports car. Sounds like what you're talking about, what do you do a fancy sports car? Because yeah, you need to go out and buy an expensive sports car so that you have that payment that you have to make at the end of the month. And so that is going to make you work your butt off because you have to make the payment. And as I go I mean, I understand what he was saying. I was like, No, I'm not doing that. But then eventually I didn't make it as a realtor. Maybe if I did do that, maybe I just didn't do the work that he told you to do. I just didn't do it. It wasn't the reward wasn't worth it for me. Mark: It was up to risk, I suppose. Yeah, Allen: I mean, you know, so with your training, you got to figure it out. Is it really worth it? Is the goal that hey, I want to quit my job. Is it I want my wife to quit her job. I want the kids to have this vacation or whatever it is. You have to burning. Yes, just eat you up every single day. You have to really really, really want it Mark: Explain to me how and it's burning me. Allen: Then the discipline has to stick. Because if you want it, but you're not disciplined, and your losses are too big, then it's it's not there yet. So I think, you know, if you don't have a trading plan, I'll just give you the training. You know, I mean, it's not that hard. It's not it's, it's the training plan helps. But it's up here. And it's the practice just doing it over and over and over again and having confidence in the plan. Because then if you have confidence, you'll stick to it. If you don't have confidence, you're going to change it, you're going to you're going to add things to it, you're not going to follow it, you're going to forget about it. Like with the paper trading, that's exactly what that is, you know, so it's not real. So, oh, well, I'm gonna ignore it. I'm gonna forget about I'm gonna do that.  Allen: That really resonated with me Allen's that that point, like, go back to the paper trading, treat it like it's somebody else's money, and then make it work. Don't look at it as just as being as a fake account, that doesn't matter. Allen: I mean, I wouldn't Yeah, I would prefer you do back testing, it'll be much faster. Mark: To look at that I'll get, I'll get onto that particular site that you've made. Yeah, Allen: That'll give you years of experience in just a few days. And so, to me,

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E42 TRANSCRIPT: ----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-Based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts, Yucca, Mark: And I'm the other one, Mark. Yucca: and today we're talking about surviving the holidays as a pagan. Mark: right? Yucca: Yes. So welcome to December . Here we are. There's, there's a lot to go into with this, and later on in the month we're gonna come back and talk about the different traditions and projects and things that you can do. But today we're gonna start with the, the kind. The, the more secular approach to the holidays and all of the family expectations and all of that cultural stuff that's going on. They kind of, everybody shares regardless of whether they're Pagan or Christian or whatever they are. Mark: Yeah, exactly. One of the things that is very weird about the mainstream culture is that it, it seems to load nearly all of its holiday festivity into a five week period or six week period at the end of the year, when historically there would've been. Celebrations around the course of the year, you know, harvest holidays and, and so forth. And there would've been. You know, several days taken out to celebrate those things. And so it seems as though with all of this ology compressed to this very short period of time, it can just be very overwhelming for people and it can give them a sense of never quite doing it well enough, Yucca: yeah. Mark: right? That that feeling of the obligation to make it perfect and that it never is quite Yucca: right? It's supposed to be special. It's supposed to be this magical, but, but, but, but, but, but yeah. Mark: right. Yucca: And whenever I hear people talk about it, There's almost always this underlying, there's this exhaustion behind it, right? There's this, there's an excitement about it and there's so many wonderful things, but people just seem so exhausted just because of what you were talking about. Trying to get all of that in, take a whole year's jolliness, and stick it into those few months or few weeks, excuse me, not months. Mark: Yes. And I think, you know, some of that is this sort of set of unfair expectations that we put on people to, you know, to create this. Event Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: set of events. But I also think that there's other stressors that go into that, into that mix. You know, it's like you're gonna have to deal with your family more if you, if you do that, you know, for most people it's like, okay, I'm gonna have to deal with my family more. Well, there are usually, for most people, there are stressors around that. Yucca: Right. Even if you, even if you dearly, dearly love your family, there's all of those dynamics I find getting back together with my siblings. You know, we're adults. We've been adults for decades, but instantly it's like we're children again with this. Same, you know, picking on each other and all of the ridiculousness, you know, and, and we have a, a pretty decent relationship. But that's even with a decent relationship that, you know, there's still all of that, all of those emotions. Mark: Sure, sure. And I think that, you know, with parents particularly, you know, parents will treat you like a child for your whole life. Un unless they're really pretty together, parents Yucca: Well, Mark: figure out that you've, you've finally grown up. Yucca: but it's hard that all kind of blurs together. Right. You know, it was yesterday. They were changing your diapers. Mark: Right, right. And you know, this brings, you know, it brings you into engagement with philosophies of parenting, right? Because maybe the grandparents just want to indulge, indulge, indulge, indulge. And you as a parent have to put some breaks on that and say, no, I'm sorry. You know, candy for breakfast doesn't work. Yucca: Or enforcing that the kids get to have boundaries. The kid gets to say no, you know, or things like that, you know, Mark: Yes, you do not. Yucca: particular thing is that Mark: do not have to hug Weird Uncle Ralph Yucca: Yeah. So, and then, you know, on top of that, in, at least here in the Northern hemisphere, the weather has changed. We're in a colder time of year. People are indoors. There tends to be more illness, and we're not even taking into account, you know, covid or anything like that, but just people are, there's, people aren't always feeling good this time of year, and we're encouraged to be eating all of these sweets and foods that we normally wouldn't eat. And so, We're putting ourselves in these, yeah, more alcohol. We're just in a more vulnerable place emotionally and physically and asking so much of ourselves at the same time and so much of others, Mark: Right. Right. And that Then, oh, Yucca: buy everything. We're being asked to buy everything and be told about how it won't be magical without it, and you need this and you need that, and you're getting tricked by, by companies that spend millions and millions of dollars to get your attention. Mark: Yeah. And that of, I mean, the, the financial stresses, you know, that's a whole other level of stressor that, you know, that happens with Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And Yucca: And this year particular, right? That's something that happens every year, but there's a lot of challenges right now with all of that, just, you know, on a global level. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. So there's all that. And then if you were of an a. Religion. Then there's the layer of, okay, well how do I then live in a a way that I find fulfilling and meaningful? And not run a ground on somebody else's judgments. Right. Whether it's that you're weird or that you're evil , it's, you know, because either of those are pretty, yeah. Either of those are pretty unpleasant to wear, honestly. And so that's this sort of brew that the holidays is, right? It's all those kinds of things. The long list of. Tasks that have to be done and the decorating and the the buying and the just everything. Plus. You know, wanting to be as a non theist pig and wanting to say, you know, actually it's the winter solstice for me. That's, that's what I consider most meaningful. And here's what I'm gonna do to carve out some time to observe that on top of Christmas or Hanukkah or, you know, whatever, whatever more mainstream holidays you may be going to celebrate. Yucca: And I wanna pause this here for a second and say, it might sound like we're sounding a lot like wrenches right now. We are both Mark and I adore the holidays, and this time of year we're just starting with the, okay, how are we gonna address the, the self care and the balancing? And again, next week we're gonna get into here's some fantastic traditions and things you can do. But, but that we do really need to look at it from lots of different angles, right? And underst. , there is stress and we do need to take care of ourselves during this time period, as well as the, the more joyous side of it all. Mark: That's right because the hope, of course, is that we come out of the holidays feeling fed, right, feeling energized by all of the, the festivity that we've had. Even if it's tiring we can catch up on sleep, but you know, to feel as though we've had these meaningful kind of golden moments in the course of, of going through the holidays. That's, that's really the goal. And in order for that to happen, you gotta take care of yourself in the meantime. Otherwise, the current of the holidays will just sweep you along and That's a very out of control feeling, and it's not good for you. Yucca: Yeah, so why don't we start with the kind of commercialism side, right? How, what are some strategies that people can have to be more aware of that and more intentional with it? Mark: Okay, well the first strategy that I think is really important is to broaden the definition of gift. Because capitalism obviously wants to sell you a product. They wanna sell you a thing in a box. and that thing is made of resources that were carved out of the earth and may very likely end up in a landfill in not too short order. Yucca: Right. Mark: So it may not be the most, it may not be the, the, the best choice to choose a thing in a box. Now let me, let me put a caveat in. When it comes to children, you know, to to smaller children, my philosophy is let them have the equivalent of the, the secular winter solstice, holiday, the Christmas, because they will feel terribly deprived and terribly sad. If they don't have that experience, that doesn't mean they have to be mountain with gifts, but, I, I believe that in the case of children, you give them Yucca: of it. Yeah. Mark: And you give them things in a box. Yucca: Yeah, we do both. We'll talk more about this, but my family, we do, we do both Solstice and Christmas as separate holidays. Mark: right? Right. So, broadening the definition of what constitutes a gift means experiences. Experiences can be gifts. And that can be. Tickets to a concert. It can be a date night. It can be you know, we're gonna go dancing in this particular place. It can be you know, let's just go get coffee and talk for two hours. When do we ever get a chance to do that? It can be, let's go for a hike. There are lot, and, and many of those things don't have to cost much or any money depending on your relationship with the person. It can be. How about a massage or there are just, there are a lot of different things that you can do that will be in many ways, more memorable for people and don't involve the purchase of a thing in a box. Yucca: right? Mark: So broadening the definition of what constitutes a gift, I think is really important. In some cases, broadening in some cases, a gift can be something like, here's three hours of free childcare, right? I'm gonna, I'm, I'll watch the kids. You, you go and do whatever you want to do. Believe me, that's a very, very welcome gift for a lot of people. Yucca: is. I will wash the kids and wash your dishes if you want. Extra. You know, a bow on top there. Yeah. Mark: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, these are things that are tremendously kind when someone, you know, opens an envelope or you can put the, a little gift certificate for whatever it is in a box, right, and wrap it, and all that kind of stuff. People will gen generally be very warmed by the fact that you want to put personal attention and time into your relationship with them. Excuse me Yucca: things that you create. I mean, one of my favorite gifts I ever got was a, Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: I mean, brother-in-law wrote us a poem and it was just so thoughtful, and you can tell that he really worked on it. And it, you know, I, I have it up. I don't put a lot of things on the wall. I've got it up on the wall because it just has stayed with me for all of these years, just how amazing it was, Mark: How lovely. Yeah, and people are creative in all kinds of ways. I mean, the handmade gift. Not to be confused with the Handmaid's Tale, the hand hyphen made gift is a wonderful thing. You know, whether, whether it's a piece of writing or a piece of music or a compilation CD of music that you think the person would like or a Or, or something from, from a local artist, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: because I mean, to me there is a categorical difference between an artwork that was created by a local artist that is trying to sustain themselves through their art and something that was manufactured in a factory in China. Yucca: Right. Mark: They're, they're just, they're not the same. You know, supporting your local producers of beautiful objects, right? That's a wonderful thing. If, if, if the kind of person that you want to make a gift for is the sort of person that appreciates that kind of thing, then by all means, you know, do that. And I should say, now, I, I mentioned kind of the, the first part of my formula earlier, which is about making sure that children have. Gift receiving experience. What we do is we don't do gifts as adults. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: We really don't. I mean, when, when we need something, we, we get it. Yucca: Mm. Mark: and so what we have done in the past is we put up a, we put up a yule tree, a mid-winter tree and decorated and all that great stuff, and we put treasures underneath. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Things that we have that we just love, that are really cool. Like I have an antique uranium glass slipper that that phosphorouses under ultraviolet light because it's uranium glass, right? They used to make that and it's just this very beautiful little thing. So it's one of the things that goes under the tree and it gives us a sense of kind of wealth. You know, look, look at the cool things that are in our life. You know, objects from nature to appreciate, you know, antlers and bones and skulls and abalone shells and, you know, all these wonderful things. So we, we don't do the gift thing for adults. And we might make an exception once in a while if there's something that seems like particularly needed or wanted on the part of some adult that we love. But the amount of stress that is taken off of you by not having to buy a thing for this long list of recipients. Is profound. It will make a huge difference in your experience of the holidays. Yucca: Yeah, it really does. And I, I wanted to add on a little bit with what you were saying. You talked about the different types of gifts and then also for the children. You know, giving them the, the traditional kind of box gifts, but that's something that you can do both of, and as time goes on, the ratio of which kind of gift they're getting as they're becoming teenagers, as they're growing into adulthood, it shifts what, what you're doing with them, Mark: Right. Yucca: And so then it's just a natural thing and it's not, it's never. Being deprived. It's about just what this is really about, is about the, the love for each other and the gratitude and the giving and the, you know, to use the to be stereotypical, the spirit of giving, right. It really is. Right. And, and being about that and not the, the object right now there is also, there are a lot of, of practical things that this time of year. You know, coming out of harvest, being about to go into the, to these very cold times of year when there's not a lot coming out of the garden, there's not a lot being produced, of being ready for the cold to come. So there's, there's some practical part about, you know, the giving the socks, the, that sort of thing that just. To being prepared materially for what's to come there. There's an element of that as well, which I think is important just to keep in mind that that's one way that we do show love is to make sure, hey, you've got, you've got your warm socks for the year, right? Mark: Yeah. You're, you're, you're gonna be comfortable. Yucca: yeah. Mark: Yeah, that's, that's a, that's a great thought. In Iceland, it's traditional to give books for Christmas, and Christmas Day is a day of sitting around in warm socks, drinking hot chocolate and reading books. Yucca: Oh, wonderful. Mark: The, Yucca: Cuddling with kiddies too. I, if they've got cats, right? Cat cuddling. Mark: Yeah. You know, those kinds of traditions they make for some very warm memories. They really do make for some super nice times. And having downtime like that in the holidays is another thing that's really important. When we talk about when we talk about self-care that's certainly one thing to be considering is when am I doing nothing? Yucca: right? Mark: know, it's, it's, it's hard to imagine that it's possible, but you gotta do nothing sometimes. Yucca: Or at least. Have nobody else's mind in yours. Cause we've really lost solitude, especially in the last decade or so as, as the social media and smartphones and all of that stuff has just kind of invaded into our personal lives. So there's so little time that we're ever simply alone with ourselves, and I think that that's essential, right? I think we're social animals. We need to be around other people as well, but, , but especially in the dark of the year, Mark: Yes. Yucca: to be alone a little bit is, is just vitally important, Mark: I, I completely agree. And ironically, the inverse is true as well because you, it's a time for gathering with loved ones and for, you know, celebrating the fact that we have people that love us in our lives and, and all that good kind of stuff. But you can go overboard with that. People, people, especially introverted people, or neurodiverse people who get overwhelmed by too much social stimulus really need their, their alone time. And so it's important to, to plan for that and make sure it happens. Yucca: Yeah. And thinking about both, it's kind of like in the dark of the year. We we're celebrating the light as well. I mean, that's a lot of what the Christmas tree with the lights on it is about, is bringing that light into the dark. But we're recognizing and seeing both. It's a celebration of both. So I think that that's one way to look at it with the, with the family, but with self as well. Right. Solitude and company. Mark: So wanted to talk a little bit about a couple of other gifty sorts of ideas. There's always food, know, baked goods. I mean, an incredible gift would be, you know, cook dinner for people and bring it to their house, you know, the week before. Before the big event, you know, something, you know, just when things are going super crazy, you know, give people a meal that they don't have to think about. You know, just, just being aware of what people's needs are and, you know, thinking about your own, you know, your own. You know, where are the places where you get really exhausted and you think, oh God, I wish I didn't have to do X. Well, if somebody else did X for you, wouldn't that be amazing? Yucca: Mm-hmm. right. Mark: Yeah. So, I really encourage that, that the incorporation of that, that personal touch into gifting Either through experiences or through handmade things or through which includes baking and cooking and all that good kind of stuff. And then also because there is there's a guilt factor in in. Commercial acquisition as well. Just really being mindful, you know, of where things come from, who you're buying from. There are, you know, there are tons of Etsy stores, there are tons of indigenous sort of. Internet based stores that you can order things from, you know, figure out who you really want to be giving your money to. Is it some international conglomerate with shareholders, or is it, you know, just somebody who's trying to, trying to get by?  Yucca: Hm. Wonderful. Well, why don't we, why don't we talk about the second part of this which is the family gatherings or the social gatherings. Maybe not necessarily family, but maybe the office gatherings or whatever it is because it's a big one, right? There's a big one in terms of whether you are of the same religion or not, but also just dealing. The various personalities when people are in this kind of heightened place to begin with. Mark: And I, I think a great place to start with that is the recognition that in those circumstances, everybody is under a certain amount of stress, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: except possibly the most garous extrovert, the. Pretty much everybody else is feeling some level of what are people gonna think of me? You know, how this is the office party. How is my boss thinking of me? You know, there's, there's weird Uncle Ralph his weird opinions. How am I going to avoid getting reigned into a long conversation with him? All those, all those things, right? So under having a little compassion for the other people in the room is very helpful in, in my experience. It is, it is so challenging for us as people, and this is a weird thing to really get that the other people around us are fully fleshed out human beings with internal lives and, you know, their, their own. Yucca: story. Mark: Their own journey, their own aspirations and their own internal voices that nag at them and all that kind of stuff. There's a, there's a term for that, that realization called Saunder which when I heard that, I was glad that there was a word for it, because I think it's really important that people have that experience of others. It makes them more compassionate and more humane. Sa, S O N D E R. Yucca: Mm. Okay. Mark: And I'm not sure what language it's in. The, so that, that's a place to start is understanding that everybody may be a little bit on edge, a little bit keyed up because they're. At, at some level, when you're doing social engagement, there's a performance aspect to it, right? know, I, I wanna make sure I'm acting appropriately. I wanna make sure I'm, you know, not displeasing the people around me, all that kind of stuff. Yucca: Right. Reading everything correctly and Yeah. And responding and, and, and just being compassionate for those people. Yeah. And for yourself too, right? Yeah. Mark: Yeah, so, so now you've got these social engagements that you've gotta go to. Well, how do you take care of yourself, especially as someone who practices aio paganism or non theist paganism, or some other variety of naturalistic earth honoring path. You know, as someone who is an outlier. Philosophically and spiritually, how do you kind of stand in the truth of yourself while at the same time not picking fights with others that may have strong opinions about that? And I guess my first answer to that is that if their opinions are strong enough, you don't. Yucca: great. Mark: You, you, there's no point in, in, you know, trying to win an argument with some rabidly, right wing, evangelical Christian who just wants to tell you that you're going to hell. Yucca: Right. So the, so the first step is, is this something that you're going to engage with or not? Right? And in many cases, you may simply choose not to, but in the situation, in the event that you do choose to, right? Then thinking about before you go into that, how are you going to prepare and how are you going to respond for it? You know, you, you might choose something like doing some sort of, you know, shielding ritual before you go in, maybe doing some. Premeditation on role playing of likely scenarios that are gonna come up. Practice, practice some of your deflection techniques or expressions that you're going to use. If it is, if you've decided that it's really valuable and worth it to you to be there for whatever that reason is, right? Cause it's not our. Job here to be telling you what you should or shouldn't do. We're not, you, right? We have no idea what it feels like to be you or the shoes that you're in, but we're just encouraging you to think about how to protect yourself in that situation and still get the, what you're trying to get out of it. But no, at the end of the day, you're, you can't control anybody else, right? You cannot control the outcome. You can work on trying to get the outcome you want, but know that you're not, you can't control. Mark: Right? Yucca: Right? And if you're gonna go into this situation, you've gotta be prepared for that possibility. Mark: Yes. So part of thinking about that, how you're gonna protect yourself is how disclosive do I want to be with this particular group of people. It's your office party, for example. If the subject comes up, you may wanna say, well, my family celebrates the winter solstice. You don't need to go any further than that. You have a right to have your religious beliefs in the workplace, just like everybody else does. But, so you may want to sort of express this is, you know, this, this is what me and my family do. And then there may be questions, well, how does that work? And what's that about? And you can explain as much as you're comfortable with in Yucca: Or not, you don't. Mark: or not. Yes, exactly. Yucca: And here's the thing, depending on how you feel about it, you don't, you don't owe them that. You also don't owe them the truth. Right. Mark: true too. Yucca: That's, that's up to you. If you don't feel like that's something you wanna get into, oh, wonder how was your Christmas? Oh, great. You don't need to say, oh, actually I don't practice, you know, I don't believe in Christmas or Mark: I don't Yucca: like that. Mark: Christmas. Yucca: You know, you don't owe 'em anything, it's fine. It's however you wanna handle that. Mark: Yep. Yep, that's true. And that's, that's an example of where, of where, you know, being literally truthful can actually be a lot more harmful than, you know, applying the, the, the social lubricant of the little white lie. That just lets things keep clicking along smoothly. And of course we have to be very judicious about deciding when those things apply, but it bears saying that A lot of people would be a lot lonelier if they were fully candid about everything in their lives. with everybody around them. Yucca: Mm-hmm. And so, you know, we've been talking about the context of an office party, but that may also be the same, but you have the same things to think about with the family gathering whether you're the one organizing that or the one attending it, or, you know, And again, maybe it's not just one gathering. Maybe you've got three gatherings and you're going to the in-laws and yours and all, and then all of the different sides, you know? So this is something I would encourage kind of sitting down, like literally sitting down and just having a little strategy party with yourself, right? If you do journaling or something like that, it's a wonderful time just to maybe make some, just write down some of the. Possibilities and the strategies that you wanna have and what, what are your values and, and what do you hope to get out of it, and what do you wanna protect yourself from? And, and just be, go into it being aware because once when you're aware, you have a, a better chance of being able to respond in a way that you want to respond when you're not caught off guard. Yeah. Mark: right. Yeah. And the other thing to remember is that. And this is something that may not leap immediately to mind for people that come out of traditions like Christianity that require that you only be a Christian and not anything else, naturalistic, paganism is not like that. You can go through all of the rituals of, of a Christian Christmas gathering and no harm, no foul. You haven't offended anybody or betrayed yourself or hurt yourself or anything. Yucca: Yeah, there's Mark: You can. Yucca: gonna be mad at you about it. Mark: That's right. You, you can, you can have and still do all of your own celebrations and rituals on the solstice or as close to the solstice as works for you. And there's nothing wrong with that. So there's nothing hypocritical about it. So you don't necessarily need to, you know, lead the, the prayer to Jesus. But you can bow your head and just sort of be there. That all that's up to you. And it's, it's perfectly okay to play along in order not to create conflict. Yucca: Yeah. As long as that feels good to you, right? If it, if, if that doesn't feel good to you, then you don't need to be, you don't need to put yourself in this, that situation, right? So, Mark: Yeah. And, and that really is important to say because there are, I mean, I know there are a lot of people for whom it's like, I couldn't not go to my parents' Christmas. Gathering. Right? I couldn't not go to that. Even though they know that they really need to betray themselves deeply to be there. And when confronted with that kind of a paradox you really need to think seriously about whether you're gonna go. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: You know, it might, it might actually be the, the better part of Valor to just say, I, I can't come this year. I, it just, it doesn't feel like it would be right for me. Yucca: Mm. Mark: And you don't have to go into any more detail than that. Yucca: And here's the 10 of cookies that I baked for you, Mark: Yes, Yucca: Or whatever, whatever it is that might smooth it out. Mark: Uhhuh Yucca: Yeah, so we actually last year we did a, a full episode specifically on this. So if this is something that people are, are kind of wanting more of definitely check out our episode from last year on, on this. Mark: was that a year ago? Yucca: It was a year ago. Yep. Mark: Oh man. Yucca: right. We would've talked about this early December maybe, maybe even late November. So it just flies. But why don't we transition now to some of the things that we can do during this. Time period in preparing for the holidays, throughout the holidays in terms of self care. Right. And again, we'll get later into some of the traditions and stuff that you, we can do the specific holiday celebrations. But but is there something that you would suggest to start with Mark? Mark: Well, I start with the body. Yucca: Mm. Mark: I mean there's all the psychological stuff that we, that we go through at this time of the year, and there are all the techniques that we have for working with the psyche, but getting enough sleep, Yucca: Absolutely. Mark: eating, eating some semblance of a decent diet, even if it's a little heavier in sugar than it usually is, it's sugar and fat. Don't worry about that so much, but make sure you're getting protein. Make sure you're getting a vegetable Yucca: whatever it is that, you know, works for your Mark: for you. Yeah, exactly. And get that sleep. Be aware of how much you're drinking. Yucca: mm-hmm. Mark: Because it seems like all of these gatherings in, in many cases, there's, there's alcohol going on. So if you do drink, just really be aware of, of how much you're drinking and if it starts to feel like that's not what you wanna be doing pair it back. You know, tell people, and you can facilitate that for yourself by bringing something to drink for yourself to a gathering. Right? There's wonderful like. Sparkling cranberry ciders and pomegranate ciders and things like that. There are some really delicious things now and I'm gonna put in a plug for my, my local brewery, Lagunitas Brewing Company, which has a great beer called a n a, which is it's, or I P n A. It's like an ipa, but it's na, which is no alcohol. And it's delicious. It actually tastes like a beer, but it doesn't have any alcohol in it. So, it's worth checking that out if you need to. So, you know, enough said about that. If you don't drink, this can be a very challenging time of the year. So, take care of yourself. If you go to meetings, go to meetings do the things that you need to do in order to keep all that in. Yucca: right. And just a little tip with our bodies, if you can get a little bit of sun early in the morning, that just, just even if it's a couple of minutes where you're outside and you. Kind of turn your face towards the sun. It really does make a big difference in terms of resetting your clock and, and kind of helping you out with that, with the sleep patterns and just getting your body to be doing the things that it needs to be doing at the right time, because this time of year it can be really. Really tricky on our bodies and our rhythms as and as we have the lights on all the time and later on, and when is it dark and when is it not? And, and our, we are, first and foremost, we are physical creatures, right? We are animals with, you know, millions and millions of years of adaptation to a certain environment, which we are not living. Mark: Right. Yucca: We, we are animals in captivity, right? We're, we're. And so just trying to be aware of that a little bit is a, is a good start. Mark: Yes. Yucca: So, yeah. Mark: that brings us to the, the psychological things that we can do in order to support ourselves and. To me, the number one thing there, if you're taking care of your, your physical self, the number one thing there is to go back to that first principle of, of naturalistic paganism, which is pay attention, right? If there's snowfall, watch the snowfall for 15 minutes. Listen to the rain on the roof, crack the window open so that you can smell the smell of the rain. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Go for a walk in the snow. Notice what birds are around, if any. Just, you know, notice what phase the moon is in. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: There's so many. There are so many simple things that we can do to keep ourselves re-grounded in the fact that, okay, I'm on a, I'm on a physical planet that's going through a physical set of processes and all this culture stuff is fantastic, but I'm still just on a physical planet doing physical processes and it's all gonna work out. Yucca: Speaking of the moon December has the mites, which is one of the biggest meteor. There's two really big meteor showers a year. And if you get clear skies pretty much for the rest of the month even if you don't get it on the night that it's peaking, you've got some good chances to see some really beautiful meteors. So if you get a chance just to be out there and, and right now, Mars and Jupiter are both really bright up in the sky. Even if you're in a city, those are, are probably gonna pierce through that light pollution and just be really beautiful. Just to take a moment and just take a look, Mark: Yeah. Yeah. So other psychological things and it, I, I put this in the psychological category, even though it's a physical thing. Take a shower. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Especially if you go through any kind of a stressful experience, take a shower, there is something about, and there's literally something physical about it. It's not just the sensations all over your body that create more of a grounded sense of being in your physical self. There, there is a way that splashing water creates negative ions that tend to kind of ground out the the, the kind of zazi feeling, the jed feeling that you can get from having From having social interactions or being in a crowded store or any of those kinds of things. So that's really a go-to as far as I'm concerned. Yucca: I don't know about the ions, but I know that it, that for me, the rush, the sound of the rushing water and that just being able to control those, that that sensory input is just, is really amazing. Like, I'll do a shower and then a bath, right first the shower to kind of wash it to like to, to do like, okay, the feeling like I'm washing it all away and then, The bath of just getting to just feel like melting into that water and Mark: Soaking in the heat. Yucca: And I, I like to actually run to be in the tub while it's filling, so it has that, that sound, that rushing waterfall sound and it's filling up. And that's one of the favorite things that we do in. In the holidays because I don't have a tub where I live. We don't actually have hot water either, so we, we just heat our water up on the stove to like do dishes or something like that. But we go into town to my mother-in-law's. She's got the big bath tub with water heater and it's like, oh yeah, we can do some nice relaxing for a long time. Mark: nice. Very nice. Yucca: yeah. That's a wonderful thing about the holidays, but there's other things too. Like a shower is a really wonderful one. But if you don't have access to that, right, there are other types of things that you can do that feel like you are transitioning, that you're switching between these. You know, you're getting away from some of that stress. You're letting go. I mean, there's the shaking, there's the dancing, there's the stepping into a ritual space, and we've talked a lot about this on, on the podcast. And you can do things like going into a, the dark room, right? Turning all the lights off, and then things like that. Mark: right, right. Coming back to yourself psychologically is very important at this kind of time because it is so easy to get to be what we call ungrounded. You know, it's easy to get your thoughts spinning if you're dealing with family. It's easy to get all the old messages from the family going again, right about ways that they criticize you or that they don't respect you sufficiently, or that they haven't recognized how you've changed. Yucca: And all the things they do that are just so annoying that drive you crazy. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: All those things that you feel about them. Mark: so all that stuff can be going in your mind, and if you just let it keep going, then you can become increasingly stressed and more and more kind of separated from yourself. So. Sit down and just breathe for five minutes. It doesn't have to be a super long time.  Yucca: Off. Take the, the earbuds out of your ears. Mark: yeah. Get, get away from the gadgetry for a minute and just, you know, the other thing that I find is very, very helpful, and this sounds. Like, sort of brute force magic making. But get a big rock you know, a rock that weighs 15, 20 pounds. Sit it in your lap, sit on the ground, or sit on the floor and just sit cross-legged if that's comfortable for you, and just sit that rock in your lap. And. Yucca: just ground with it. Mark: Just wait. Yucca: Wait. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. You'll, you'll be amazed at what a difference it makes, just feeling that gravity pulling you back to the earth. And it, it clears the, clears all the spinning stuff out. It's, it's it's a powerful technique. Yucca: Mm. Yeah. Love that one. Mark: S. I I discovered that, or, or innovated it or whatever it was. My, my former wife was in a really kind of panicky space. She had I don't even remember what the circumstance was, but she was in this very hypermanic. Very anxious space and you know, was telling me about all the reasons that she felt that and that this was so, and she wasn't a pagan. And so I said, well, you know, we. We, we do stuff with things like that. So have a seat, you know, sit on the ground. And I put this big rock in her lap and she immediately began kind of to giggle. It was like, . That's great. That's so great. And sure enough, you know, given 10 minutes or so, her consciousness had really sort of changed. But yeah, so that's why I keep a big rock around. Yucca: It's great. Yeah, so this, this really can be such a lovely time of year and a really, really meaningful time of year and, and, You know, getting ready, ending out this year and getting ready for a new one and, and all of that. And so it's just a time that can also, you know, can be stressful. And so it's a good time to be aware and just really be present with ourselves and, and really honest with ourselves about what it is that, that we need, what's feeding us what's not. And thinking about. You know, what do we value and what obligations do we or do we not have and, and how to handle that. So, yeah. Mark: And if there are things that we feel obligated to do that we really don't want to do, are there alternatives? Is, is there some other way to get at that? You know, is it possible to. I don't know. I, I, I don't know what the example is. If, if the holiday meal with the family is a nightmare, maybe a restaurant, you know, there, there are, there are other ways of coming at this. If, if it's Yucca: Yeah. Just some creative thinking about it. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Yeah. So. So we hope that you all have a wonderful intentional holiday season Mark: Yes. And may cramps come, but not take you away in his bag this evening. Because in, in, in Bavaria it's Crumps knocked. So, hope that you don't get whipped with Bert's twigs too much or hauled away in his bag. Yucca: That's great. All right, well thank you everybody. We will see you next week.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncFy1zRA9HM 28 DAYS LATER Written by Alex Garland CLOSE ON A MONITOR SCREEN: Images of stunning violence. Looped. Soldiers in a foreign war shoot an unarmed civilian at point- blank range; a man is set on by a frenzied crowd wielding clubs and machetes; a woman is necklaced while her killers cheer and howl. Pull back to reveal that we are seeing one of many screens in a bank of monitors, all showing similar images... Then revealing that the monitors are in a... INT. SURGICAL CHAMBER - NIGHT ...surgical chamber. And watching the screens is a... ...chimp, strapped to an operating table, with its skull dissected open, webbed in wires and monitoring devices, muzzled with a transparent guard. Alive. Behind the surgical chamber, through the wide doorframe, we can see a larger laboratory beyond. INT. BRIGHT CORRIDOR - NIGHT A group of black-clad ALF Activists, all wearing balaclavas, move down a corridor. They carry various gear - bag, bolt cutters. As they move, one Activist reaches up to a security camera and sprays it black with an aerosol paint can. INT. LABORATORY - NIGHT The Activists enter the laboratory. CHIEF ACTIVIST Fucking hell... The Chief Activist takes his camera off his shoulder and starts taking photos. The room is huge and long, and darkened except for specific pools of light. Partially illuminated are rows of cages with clear perspex doors. They run down either side of the room. In the cages are chimpanzees. 2. Most are in a state of rabid agitation, banging and clawing against the perspex, baring teeth through foam-flecked mouths. They reach the far end of the lab, where on a huge steel operating table they see the dissected chimp. FEMALE ACTIVIST Oh God... The dissected chimp's eyes flick to the Activists. Blood wells from around the exposed brain tissue. Tears starts to roll down the Female Activist's cheeks. CHIEF ACTIVIST (to Female Activist) Keep your shit together. If we're going to get them out of here... The Finnish Activist is checking the perspex cages. FINNISH ACTIVIST I can pop these, no problem. CHIEF ACTIVIST So get to it. The Finnish Activist raises his crowbar and sticks it around the edge of one of the doors - about to prise it open. At the moment, the doors to the laboratory bang open. The Activists all turn. Standing at the entrance is the Scientist. A pause. The Scientist jumps to a telephone handset on the wall and shouts into the receiver. SCIENTIST Security! We have a break-in! Get to sector... A hand slams down the disconnect button. SCIENTIST ...nine. The Chief Activist plucks the receiver from the Scientist's hands, and then rips the telephone from the wall. A beat. 3. SCIENTIST I know who you are, I know what you think you're doing, but you have to listen to me. You can't release these animals. CHIEF ACTIVIST If you don't want to get hurt, shut your mouth, and don't move a fucking muscle. SCIENTIST (BLURTS) The chimps are infected! The Activists hesitate, exchanging a glance. SCIENTIST (continuing; stumbling, FLUSTERED) These animals are highly contagious. They've been given an inhibitor. CHIEF ACTIVIST Infected with what? SCIENTIST Chemically restricted, locked down to a... a single impulse that... CHIEF ACTIVIST Infected with what? The Scientist hesitates before answering. SCIENTIST Rage. Behind the Activists, the bank of monitors show the faces of the machete-wielding crowd. SCIENTIST (desperately trying to EXPLAIN) In order to cure, you must first understand. Just imagine: to have power over all the things we feel we can't control. Anger, violence... FINNISH ACTIVIST What the fuck is he talking about? 4. CHIEF ACTIVIST We don't have time for this shit! Get the cages open! SCIENTIST No! CHIEF ACTIVIST We're going, you sick bastard, and we're taking your torture victims with us. SCIENTIST NO! You must listen! The animals are contagious! The infection is in their blood and saliva! One bite and... FEMALE ACTIVIST They won't bite me. The Female Activist crouches down to face the wild eyes of the infected chimp behind the perspex. SCIENTIST STOP! You have no idea! The Scientist makes a desperate lunge towards her, but the Chief Activist grabs him. FEMALE ACTIVIST Good boy. You don't want to bite me, do you? The Female Activist gives a final benign smile, then the Finnish Activist pops open the door. SCIENTIST NO! Like a bullet from a gun, the infected chimp leaps out at the Female Activist - and sinks its teeth into her neck. She reels back as the chimp claws and bites with extraordinary viciousness. At the same moment, a deafening alarm begins to sound. FEMALE ACTIVIST (SHRIEKING) Get it off! Get if off! The Finnish Activist rips the ape off and throws it on to the floor. The infected chimp immediately bites into the man's leg. He yells with pain, and tries to kick it off. 5. Behind him, the Female Activist has started to scream. She doubles up, clutching the side of her head. FEMALE ACTIVIST I'm burning! Jesus! Help me! SCIENTIST We have to kill her! FEMALE ACTIVIST I'm burning! I'm burning! CHIEF ACTIVIST What's... SCIENTIST We have to kill her NOW! Meanwhile, the Female Activist's cries have become an unwavering howl of pain - and she is joined by the Finnish Activist, whose hands have also flown to the side of his head, gripping his temples as if trying to keep his skull from exploding. CHIEF ACTIVIST What's wrong with them? The Scientist grabs a desk-lamp base and starts running towards the screaming Female Activist... ...who has ripped off her balaclava - revealing her face - the face of an Infected. She turns to the Scientist. SCIENTIST Oh God. She leaps at him. He screams as they go tumbling to the ground. The Chief Activist watches in immobile horror as she attacks the Scientist with amazing ferocity. INT. CORRIDOR - NIGHT Another ACTIVIST makes his way down the corridor towards the lab. ACTIVIST (HISSES) Terry? Jemma? 6. No answer. ACTIVIST Mika? Where are you? He reaches the door to the lab, which is closed - and... ...as he opens it, we realize the door is also soundproofed. A wall of screaming hits him. He stands in the doorway - stunned by the noise, and then the sight. Blood, death, and his colleagues, all Infected. ACTIVIST Bloody hell. The Infected rush him. FADE TO BLACK. TITLE: 28 DAYS LATER INT. HOSPITAL ROOM - LATE AFTERNOON Close up of Jim, a young man in his twenties, wearing pale green hospital pyjamas. He has a month's beard, is dishevelled, and asleep. We pull back to see that Jim is lying on a hospital bed, in a private room. Connected to his arms are multiple drips, a full row of four or five on each side of his bed. Most of the bags are empty. Jim's eyes open. He looks around with an expression of confusion. Then he sits up. He is weak, but he swings his legs off the bed and stands. The attached drips are pulled with him and clatter to the floor. Jim winces, and pulls the taped needles from his arm. JIM Ow... His voice is hoarse, his mouth dry. Massaging his throat, he walks to the door. 7. INT. COMA WARD - LATE AFTERNOON The door to Jim's hospital room is locked. The key is on the floor. He picks it up and opens the door. Jim exits into a corridor. At the far end, a sign read: COMA WARD. There is no sign of life or movement. Jim walks down the corridor. One of the doors is half-open. From inside, there is the sound of buzzing flies. INT. HOSPITAL WARDS - LATE AFTERNOON Jim moves as quickly as he can through the hospital, still weak, but now driven by adrenaline. All the wards and corridors are deserted. Medical notes and equipment lie strewn over the floors, trolleys are upended, glass partition doors are smashed. In a couple of places, splashes of dried blood arc up the walls. He reaches A&E. On one wall is a row of public pay phones. He lifts a receiver, and the line is dead. He goes down the line, trying them all. In the corner of the A&E reception is a smashed soft-drinks machine, with a few cans collected at the base. Jim grabs one, rips off the ring-pull and downs it in one go. Then he grabs another, and heads for the main doors. EXT. HOSPITAL - LATE AFTERNOON Jim exits and walks out into the bright daylight of the forecourt. The camera begins to pull away from him. JIM Hello? Aside from a quiet rush of wind, there is silence. No traffic, no engines, no movement. Not even birdsong. EXT. LONDON - SUNDOWN Jim walks through the empty city, from St. Thomas's Hospital, over Westminster Bridge, past the Houses of Parliament, down Whitehall, to Trafalgar Square. 8. A bright overhead sun bleaches the streets. A light drifts litter and refuse. Cars lie abandoned, shops looted. Jim is still wearing his hospital pyjamas, and carries a plastic bag full of soft-drink cans. EXT. CENTRAL LONDON ROAD/CHURCH - NIGHT Jim walks. Night has fallen. He needs to find a place to rest... He pauses. Down a narrow side street is a church. He walks towards it. The front doors are open. INT. CHURCH - NIGHT Jim walks inside, moving with the respectful quietness that people adopt when entering a church. The doors ahead to the main chamber are closed. Pushing them, gently trying the handle, it is obvious they are locked. But another open door is to his left. He goes through it. INT. CHURCH - STAIRWELL - NIGHT Jim moves up a stairwell. Written large on the wall is a single line of graffiti: REPENT. THE END IS EXTREMELY FUCKING NIGH INT. CHURCH - GALLERY LEVEL - NIGHT Jim moves into the gallery level, and sees, through the dust and rot, ornate but faded splendor. At the far end, a stained- glass window is illuminated by the moonlight. Jim pads in, stands at the gallery, facing the stained-glass window for a moment before looking down... Beneath are hundreds of dead bodies. Layered over the floor, jammed into the pews, spilling over the altar. The scene of an unimaginable massacre. Jim stands, stunned. Then sees, standing motionless at different positions facing away from him, four people. Their postures and stillness make their status unclear. Jim hesitates before speaking. 9. JIM ...Hello? Immediately, the four heads flick around. Infected. And the next moment, there is the powerful thump of a door at the far end of the gallery. Jim whirls to the source as the Infected below start to move. The door thumps again - another stunningly powerful blow, the noise echoing around the chamber. Confused, fist closing around his bag of soft drinks, Jim steps onto the gallery, facing the door... ...and it smashes open. Revealing an Infected Priest - who locks sight on Jim, and starts to sprint. JIM Father? The Priest is half way across the gallery JIM Father, what are you... And now the moonlight catches the Priest's face. Showing clearly: the eyes. The blood smeared and collected around his nose, ears, and mouth. Darkened and crusted, accumulated over days and weeks. Fresh blood glistening. JIM Jesus! In a movement of pure instinct, Jim swings the bag just as the Priest is about to reach him - and connects squarely with the man's head. JIM Oh, that, was bad, that was bad... I shouldn't have done that... He breaks into a run... INT. CHURCH - STAIRWELL - NIGHT Down the stairwell... 10. INT. CHURCH - NIGHT ...into the front entrance, where the locked door now strains under the blows of the Infected inside. JIM Shit. EXT. CHURCH - NIGHT Jim sprints down the stone steps. As he reaches the bottom the doors are broken open, and the Infected give chase. EXT. CENTRAL LONDON ROAD - NIGHT Jim runs - the Infected have almost reached him. A hand fires up a Zippo lighter, and lights the rag of a Molotov cocktail. As Jim runs, something flies past his head, and the Infected closest to him explodes in a ball of flame. Jim turns, and sees as another Molotov cocktail explodes, engulfing two in the fireball. He whirls, now completely bewildered. WOMAN'S VOICE HERE! Another Molotov cocktail explodes. The Infected stagger from the blaze, on fire. WOMAN'S VOICE OVER HERE! Jim whirls again, and sees, further down the road... ...Selena, a black woman, also in her twenties. She wears a small backpack, a machete is stuck into her belt - and she holds a lit Molotov cocktail in her hand. ...Mark, a tall, good-looking man - throwing another bottle. It smashes on the head of the last Infected, bathing it in flame... The burning Infected bumps blindly into a car. Falls. Gets up again. 11. Blindly, it staggers off the road, into a petrol station - where an abandoned car has run over on the pumps. The ground beneath it suddenly ignites, and the petrol station explodes. EXT. SIDE STREET - NIGHT Selena and Mark lead Jim into a side street. JIM (DAZED) Those people! Who were... who... MARK This way! Move it! Jim allows himself to be hurried along. EXT. SHOP - NIGHT Selena stops outside a newsagent's shop. The shop's door and windows are covered with a metal security grill, but the grill over the door lock has been prised away enough for Selena to slip her hand through to the latch. INT. SHOP - NIGHT Inside, most of the shelves have been emptied of confectionery. Newspapers and magazines litter the floor. The magazine covers of beautiful girls and sports cars have become instant anachronisms. At the back of the shop, a makeshift bed of sheets and sleeping bag is nestled. This has obviously been Selena and Mark's home for the last few days. INT. NEWSAGENT - NIGHT Jim, Mark and Selena enter the newsagent's and pull down the grill. MARK A man walks into a bar with a giraffe. They each get pissed. The giraffe falls over. The man goes to leave and the barman says, you can't leave that lying there. The man says, it's not a lion. It's a giraffe. 12. Silence. Mark pulls off his mask and turns to Selena. MARK He's completely humorless. You two will get along like a house on fire. Selena, who has already taken off her mask, ignores Mark. SELENA Who are you? You've come from a hospital. MARK Are you a doctor? SELENA He's not a doctor. He's a patient. JIM I'm a bicycle courier. I was riding a package from Farringdon to Shaftesbury Avenue. A car cut across me... and then I wake up in hospital, today... I wake up and I'm hallucinating, or... MARK What's your name? JIM Jim. MARK I'm Mark. This is Selena. (BEAT) Okay, Jim. We've got some bad news. Selena starts to tell her story, and as the story unfolds we see the images she describes. SELENA It began as rioting. And right from the beginning, you knew something bad was going on because the rioters were killing people. And then it wasn't on the TV anymore. It was in the street outside. It was coming through your windows. We all guessed it was a virus. An infection. You didn't need a doctor to tell you that. It was the blood. 13. Something in the blood. By the time they tried to evacuate the cities, it was already too late. The infection was everywhere. The army blockades were overrun. And that was when the exodus started. The day before the radio and TV stopped broadcasting there were reports of infection in Paris and New York. We didn't hear anything more after that. JIM Where are your families? MARK They're dead. SELENA Yours will be dead too. JIM No... No! I'm going to find them. They live in Greenwich. I can walk. (heading for the exit) I'm going to... to go and... SELENA You'll go and come back. JIM (pulling at the grill) Yes! I'll go and come back. MARK Rules of survival. Lesson one - you never go anywhere alone, unless you've got no choice. Lesson two - you only move during daylight, unless you've got no choice. We'll take you tomorrow. Then we'll all go and find your dead parents. Okay? EXT. TRAIN TRACKS - DAY Jim, Selena and Mark walk along the Docklands Light Railway in single file. Ahead is a train. Behind the train, as if spilled in its wake, are abandoned bags, suitcases, backpacks. Mark drops pace to let Jim catch up. 14. MARK How's your head? Fucked? No reply. MARK (gesturing at the city) I know where your head is. You're looking at these windows, these millions of windows, and you're thinking - there's no way this many people are dead. It's just too many windows. Mark picks up a handbag from the tracks. MARK The person who owned this bag. Can't be dead. Mark reaches in and starts to pull things out as they walk, discarding the personal possessions. MARK A woman - (car keys) - who drove a Nissan Micra - (teddy) - and had a little teddy bear - (condoms) - and carried protection, just in case. Marks tosses the condoms behind him. MARK (DRY) Believe me, we won't need them anymore than she will. He hands the bag to Jim and walks ahead. Jim pulls out a mobile phone. He switches it on. It reads: SEARCHING FOR NETWORK. The message blinks a couple of times. Then the screen goes blank. Jim looks left. He is now alongside the train. The inside of the windows are smeared with dried blood. Pressed against the glass is the face of a dead man. 15. Jim drops the phone and breaks into a run - running past Mark and Selena. MARK (HISSING) Hey! EXT. GREENWICH COMMON - DAY Jim, Selena and Mark jog across Greenwich Common. Jim gestures towards one of the streets on the far side of the green. JIM (LOW VOICE) Down there. Westlink Street. Second on the left. EXT. WESTLINK STREET - DAY The street is modest red-brick semi-detached houses. They stand outside Number 43. Jim waits while Selena scans the dark facade. SELENA If there's anyone in there who isn't human... JIM I understand. SELENA Anyone. JIM I understand. Selena shoots a glance at Jim. Jim is gazing at the house. MARK Okay. EXT. BACK GARDEN - DAY Jim uses the key under the flowerpot to open the back door. INT. HOUSE - DAY Jim, Selena and Mark move quietly through the kitchen and the downstairs of the house. 16. Surprisingly, everything is neat and tidy. Washed plates are stacked by the sink, newspapers on the table are neatly piled. The headline on the top paper reads simply: CONTAINMENT FAILS. They reach the bottom of the stairs. Selena gestures upwards, and Jim nods. They start to ascend. At the top of the stairs, Selena sniffs the air, and recoils. Jim has noticed it too. His eyes widen in alarm. MARK (WHISPERS) Wait. But Jim pushes past and advances along the top landing, until he reaches a door. By now the smell is so bad that he is having to cover his nose and mouth with the sleeve of one arm. Jim pushes open the door. Inside, two decomposed bodies lie side by side on the bed, intertwined. On the bedside table are an empty bottle of sleeping pills and a bottle of red wine. Mark appears behind him. Jim stares at his parents for a couple of moments, then Mark closes the door. INT. BATHROOM - DAY Jim sits on the toilet, alone. He is crying. In his hand is a piece of paper: "Jim - with endless love, we left you sleeping. Now we're sleeping with you. Don't wake up." The paper crumples in his fist. INT. LIVING ROOM - DAY Jim, Selena and Mark sit in the living room, on the two sofas. Jim looks dazed, uncomprehending. Selena watches Jim, her expression neutral. SELENA They died peacefully. You should be grateful. JIM I'm not grateful. Jim's words hang a moment. Then Mark talks, simply, unemotionally, matter-of-fact throughout. 17. MARK The roads out were all jammed. So we went to Paddington Station. Hoping: maybe we could get to Heathrow, maybe buy our way on a plane. My dad had all this cash, even though cash was already useless, and Mum had her jewellery. But twenty thousand other people had the same idea. (A MOMENT) The crowd was surging, and I lost my grip on my sister's hand. I remember realizing the ground was soft. I looked down, and I was standing on people. Like a carpet, people who had fallen, and... somewhere in the crowd there were infected. It spread fast, no one could run, all you could do was climb. Over more people. So I did that. I got up, somehow, on top of a kiosk. (A MOMENT) Looking down, you couldn't tell which faces were infected and which weren't. With the blood, the screaming, they all looked the same. And I saw my dad. Not my mum or my sister. But I saw my dad. His face. A short silence. MARK Selena's right. You should be grateful. SELENA We don't have time to get back to the shop before dark. We should stay here tonight. Jim nods. He isn't sure what he wants to say. JIM My old room was at the end of the landing. You two take it. I'll sleep down here. SELENA We'll sleep in the same room. It's safer. 18. EXT. LONDON - DAY TO NIGHT The red orb of the sun goes down; the light fades. As night falls, London vanishes into blackness, with no electric light to be seen. Then the moon appears from behind the cloud layer, and the dark city is revealed. INT. HOUSE - NIGHT Jim is on the sofa. In the moonlight, we can see that his eyes are open, wide awake. Selena is curled on the other sofa, and Mark is on the floor - both asleep. The house is silent. Jim watches Selena sleeping for a couple of moments. Then, quietly, he gets off the sofa and pads out of the living room, down the hall to the kitchen. INT. KITCHEN - NIGHT Jim enters, standing just inside the doorway. He looks around the room. On one wall, a faded kid's drawing of a car is framed. Above the counter, on a shelf of cookery books, an album has a handwritten label on the spine: "Mum's Favorite Recipes". Jim walks to the fridge. Stuck to the door is a photo of Jim with his parents, arm in arm, smiling at the camera. Jim is on his mountain bike, wearing his courier bag. FLASH CUT TO: Jim, sitting at the kitchen table as his Mum enters, carrying bags of shopping. Jim walks over to the bags and pulls out a carton of orange juice, which he pulls straight to his mouth and begins to gulp down. His Dad walks in from the garden. JIM'S DAD Give me a glass of that, would you? JIM (draining the carton, and giving it a shake) It's empty. CUT BACK TO: 19. Jim touches the photo, their faces, lightly. Jim is facing away from the back door, which has a large frosted-glass panel. Through the glass panel, unseen by Jim a dark silhouette looms against the diffused glow from the moonlight. Through the kitchen window, a second silhouette appears. Then there is a scratching noise from the back door. Jim freezes. Slowly, he turns his head, and sees the dark shapes behind the door and window. A beat - then the door is abruptly and powerfully smashed in. It flies open, and hangs loosely held by the bottom hinge. Standing in the doorframe is an Infected Man. Jim shouts with alarm as the Man lunges at him - and they both go tumbling to the floor. At the same moment, the figure behind the kitchen window smashes the glass, and an Infected Teenage Girl starts to clamber through the jagged frame. The Man gets on top of Jim, while Jim uses his arms to hold back the ferocious assault. A single strand of saliva flies from the Man's lips, and contacts Jim's cheek. JIM (SCREAMS) Help! Suddenly, Selena is there, holding her machete. The blade flashes down to the back of the Man's neck. Blood gushes. Jim rolls the Infected Man off, just in time to see... ...Mark dispatch the Girl half way through the kitchen window. The Girl is holding Mark, but her legs are caught on the broken glass. Mark jabs upwards into the Girl's torso - she stiffens, then slumps, and as Mark steps back we see he is holding a knife. Jim hyperventilates, staring at the corpse on the kitchen floor. JIM It's Mr. Bridges... Selena turns to Jim. She is hyperventilating too, but there is control and steel in her voice. 20. SELENA Were you bitten? JIM He lives four doors down... Jim turns to the Girl sprawled half way through the window. JIM That's his daughter... SELENA Were you bitten? Jim looks at her. Selena is still holding her machete at the ready. JIM No... No! I wasn't! SELENA Did any of the blood get in your mouth? JIM No! SELENA Mark? Jim turns to Mark. He is standing in the middle of the room. Stepped away from the window. The Girl's blood is on his arm - and he is wiping it away... ...off the skin... where a long scratch cut wells up fresh blood. A moment. Then Mark looks at Selena, as if slightly startled. MARK Wait. But Selena is swiping with her machete. Mark lifts his arm instinctively, defensively, and the blade sinks in. Selena immediately yanks it back. MARK DON'T! Selena swipes again - and the blade catches Mark hard in the side of the head. Mark falls. 21. Jim watches, scrabbling backwards on the floor away from them, as Selena brutally finishes Mark off. Selena looks at Mark's body for a couple of beats, then lowers the blade. She picks up a dishcloth from the sink counter and tosses it to Jim. SELENA Get that cleaned off. Jim picks up the rag and hurriedly starts to wipe the Infected's blood from around his neck. SELENA Do you have any clothes here? JIM (fazed, frightened of her) I... I don't know. I think so. SELENA Then get them. And get dressed. We have to leave, now. With practiced speed, Selena starts to open the kitchen cupboards, selecting packets of biscuits and cans from the shelves, and stuffing them into her backpack. SELENA More infected will be coming. They always do. EXT. HOUSE - NIGHT Jim and Selena exit the front door. Jim has changed out of his hospital gear into jeans and a sweatshirt. He also has a small backpack, and is carrying a baseball bat. EXT. LONDON ROAD - NIGHT Jim and Selena walk: fast, alert. But something is not being said between them... until Jim breaks the silence. JIM (QUIET) How did you know? Selena says nothing. Continues walking. JIM (INSISTENT) How did you know he was infected? 22. SELENA The blood. JIM The blood was everywhere. On me, on you, and... SELENA (CUTTING IN) I didn't know he was infected. Okay? I didn't know. He knew. I could see it in his face. (A MOMENT) You need to understand, if someone gets infected, you've got somewhere between ten and twenty seconds to kill them. They might be your brother or your sister or your oldest friend. It makes no difference Just so as you know, if it happens to you, I'll do it in a heartbeat. A moment. JIM How long had you known him? SELENA Five days. Or six. Does it matter? Jim says nothing. SELENA He was full of plans. Long-distance weapons, so they don't get close. A newsagent's with a metal grill, so you can sleep. Petrol bombs, so the blood doesn't splash. Selena looks at Jim dispassionately. SELENA Got a plan yet, Jim? You want us to find a cure and save the world? Or fall in love and fuck? Selena looks away again. SELENA Plans are pointless. Staying alive is as good as it gets. Silence. 23. They walk. Jim following a few steps behind Selena. A few moments later, Jim lifts a hand, opens his mouth, about to say something - but Selena cuts him off without even looking round. SELENA Shhh. She has seen something... A line of tower blocks some distance away, standing against the night sky. In one of them, hanging in the window of one of the highest stories, colored fairy lights are lit up, blinking gently. INT. TOWER BLOCK - NIGHT Jim and Selena walk through the smashed glass doors of the tower block. It is extremely dark inside. Selena switches on a flashlight and illuminates the entrance hall. It is a mess. The floor is covered in broken glass and dried blood. The lift doors are jammed open, and inside is a dense bundle of rags - perhaps an old corpse, but impossible to tell, because the interior of the lift has been torched. It is black with carbon, and smoke-scarring runs up the outside wall. Selena moves the flashlight to the stairwell. There is a huge tangle of shopping trolleys running up the stairs. Selena gives one of the trolleys an exploratory tug. It shifts, but holds fast, meshed in with its neighbor. Then she puts a foot into one of the grates, and lifts herself up. Shining her light over the top of the tangle, she can see a gap along the top. JIM Let's hope we don't have to get out of here in a hurry. She begins to climb through. INT. TOWER BLOCK - NIGHT Jim and Selena move steadily and quietly up the stairwell, into the building. Reaching a next landing, they check around the corner before proceeding. Through a broken window, we can see that they are already high above most London buildings, and on the wall a sign reads: LEVEL 5. 24. SELENA Need a break? JIM (completely out of breath) No. You? SELENA No. They continue a few steps. JIM I do need a break, by the way. Selena nods. They stop on the stairs. Jim slips off his backpack and sits, pulling a face as he does so... SELENA What's up? JIM Nothing. She gives him a cut-the-crap expression. JIM I've got a headache. SELENA Bad? JIM Pretty bad. SELENA Why didn't you say something before? JIM Because I didn't think you'd give a shit. A moment, where it's unclear how Selena will react to this. Then she slips off her own backpack. SELENA (going through the bag) You've got no fat on you, and all you've had to eat is sugar. So you're crashing. Unfortunately, there isn't a lot we can do about that... 25. Selena starts to produce a wide selection of pills, looted from a chemist. SELENA ...except pump you full painkillers, and give you more sugar to eat. She holds up a bottle of codeine tablets, and passes it to Jim. SELENA As for the sugar: Lilt or Tango? JIM (CHEWING CODEINE) ...Do you have Sprite? SELENA Actually, I did have a can of Sprite, but... Suddenly there is a loud scream, coming from somewhere lower down the building. Jim and Selena both make a grab for their weapons. JIM Jesus! SELENA Quiet. The scream comes again. The noise is chilling, echoing up the empty stairwell. But there is something strange about it. The noise is human, but oddly autistic. It is held for slightly too long, and stops abruptly. SELENA That's an infected. Then, the sound of metal scraping, clattering the blockade. SELENA They're in. INT. SHOPPING TROLLEY BLOCKADE - NIGHT Two Infected, a Young Asian Guy and a Young White Guy, moving with amazing speed over the blockade. 26. INT. STAIRS - NIGHT Jim and Selena sprint up the stairs. Behind them, we can hear the Infected, giving chase, howling. They pass level eight, nine, ten... Jim is exhausted. SELENA Come on! JIM (out of breath, barely able to speak) I can't. Selena continues, and Jim looks over the edge of the stairwell, to the landing below... ...where the two Infected appear, tearing around the corner. INT. STAIRWELL - NIGHT Selena sprints up the stairs... and Jim sprints past her, in an amazing burst of energy and speed. They round another bend in the stairwell... ...then both Jim and Selena scream. Standing directly in front of them is a Man In Riot Cop Gear - helmet with full visor, gloves, a riot shield in one hand, and a length of lead pipe in the other. The Man lunges past both of them, barging past, where the Infected White Man has appeared at the stairwell. The Riot Gear Man swings his lead pipe and connects viciously with the White Man's head. The White Man falls backwards against the Asian Man. Both fall back down the stairs. The Riot Gear Man turns back to Jim and Selena. MAN Down the corridor! Flat 157! Jim and Selena are stunned, but start to run down the corridor. The Asian Man is coming back up the stairs. Jim looks back over his shoulder in time to see the Riot Gear Man deliver a massive blow to the Asian Man's head. 27. INT. CORRIDOR - NIGHT Jim and Selena run towards Flat 157. The door is open, but as they approach, it suddenly slams shut. JIM AND SELENA (hammering on the door) Let us in! GIRL (O.S.) Who is it? SELENA Let us in! The door opens a fraction, on the chain. The face of a girl appears. She is fourteen, pale, solemn-faced. GIRL Where's Dad? Jim looks back down the corridor. At the far end, the Man appears. He is holding the limp body of one of the Infected - and he tips it over the balcony, where it drops down the middle of the stairwell. MAN (CALLS BACK) It's okay, Hannah. Let them inside. The door closes, we hear the chain being slipped off, then it opens again. INT. FLAT - NIGHT Jim and Selena enter past the pale-faced girl. The flat is council, three-bed, sixteenth floor of the block. It has patterned wallpaper, and nice but boring furnishings. It is lit by candles. The entrance hall leads straight to the living room, which has French windows and a small balcony outside. On one wall, a framed photograph hangs, which shows the Man standing beside a black taxi cab. Next to him is a middle aged woman - presumably the Man's wife. Hannah sits at the cab's steering wheel, beaming. Another photo, beside, show Hannah sat in the seat of a go- kart. The Man follows Jim and Selena inside. 28. MAN Come in, come in. They follow the Man through to the living room, and Hannah recloses the front door, which has an impressive arrangement of locks and dead-bolts. INT. FLAT - LIVING ROOM - NIGHT In the living room, the fairy lights hang in the window, powered by a car battery. Lit by their glow, the Man goes through a careful ritual of shedding his gear, helped by Hannah. First, he lays down the riot shield. Then he puts the bloodsmeared lead pipe on a small white towel. Next, he removes his gloves - and places them beside the bar on the towel. Then he folds the towel over the weapon and gloves, and puts it beside the riot shield. Finally he removes the visored helmet. Jim and Selena watch him. They look pretty rattled, not really knowing what to expect. After the Man has finished shedding his gear, he turns. MAN So... I'm Frank, anyway. He extends his hand to Jim and Selena. Jim hesitates very briefly, then shakes it. JIM I'm Jim. SELENA Selena. Frank beams, and suddenly he seems much less frightening and imposing. If anything, he is just as nervous as Jim and Selena. FRANK Jim and Selena. Good to meet you. And this is my daughter, Hannah. (turning to Hannah) ...Come on, sweetheart. Say hello. Hannah takes a step into the room, but says nothing. FRANK So... so this is great. Just great. It calls for a celebration. 29. I'd say. Why don't you all sit down, and... Hannah, what have we got to offer? HANNAH (QUIETLY) We've got Mum's creme de menthe. An awkward beat. FRANK Yes, her creme de menthe. Great. Look, sit, please. Get comfortable. Sit tight while I get it. Frank exits. Selena, Jim and Hannah all stand, until Selena gestures at the sofa. SELENA Shall we? Jim and Selena take the sofa. Hannah stays standing. FRANK (O.S.) Where are the bloody glasses? HANNAH Middle cupboard. FRANK (O.S.) No! The good ones! This is a celebration! HANNAH Top cupboard. Another short, uncomfortable pause. Hannah looks at Jim and Selena from her position near the doorway. Her expression is blank and unreadable. JIM This is your place, then. Hannah nods. JIM It's nice. Hannah nods again. Frank re-enters. Frank is beaming, holding the creme de menthe, and four wine glasses. 30. FRANK There! I know it isn't much but... well, cheers! EXT. TOWER BLOCK - NIGHT The moon shines above the tower block. INT. FLAT - NIGHT Jim, Selena and Hannah all sit in the living room, sipping creme de menthe. Frank is disconnecting the fairy lights as he talks, and pulling the curtains closed, rather systematically checking for cracks along the edges. FRANK Normally we keep the windows covered at night, because the light attracts them. But when we saw your petrol station fire, we knew it had to be survivors... So we hooked up the Christmas tree lights. Like a beacon. Finished with the sofa, he sits on the armchair. SELENA We're grateful. FRANK Well, we're grateful you came. I was starting to really worry. Like I say, we haven't seen any sign of anyone normal for a while now. JIM There aren't any others in the building? Frank shakes his head. SELENA And you haven't seen any people outside? Frank's eyes flick to Hannah. FRANK We haven't left the block for more than two weeks. Stayed right here. Only sensible thing to do. Everyone who went out... 31. SELENA Didn't come back. FRANK And there's two hundred flats here. Most of them have a few cans of food, or cereal, or something. SELENA It's a good set-up. FRANK It isn't bad. He puts a hand on Hannah's shoulder, and gives it a squeeze. FRANK We've got by, haven't we? INT. BATHROOM - NIGHT

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E41 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm Mark, one of your hosts. Yucca: and I'm Yucca. Mark: and today we have a really exciting episode. We have an interview with a member of the Atheopagan Society Council, Michael, who is joining us today, and is gonna tell us about his journey and what this community means to him and his vision for the future and all kinds of cool stuff. So welcome. Michael: Well, thank you very much for having me. Mark: I'm delighted to have you here, Yucca: Thanks for coming on. Michael: Yeah, no, I'm excited. Yucca: Yeah. So why don't we start with so who are you? Right? What's, what's your journey been to get here? Michael: Gosh. Well, I kind of have to start at the very beginning. So my name's Michael and you know, I've, I start, sometimes I go by Mícheál, which is my Irish, the Irish version of my name. And that's something I've been using more as I've been involved in the Pagan community. My parents are both Irish and. They moved to the United States in their early eighties cuz my dad got a green card working over there Mark: Hmm. Michael: and I was born in America. And then they decided they want to move back to Ireland then in 1991. So already I had this kind of dissected identity. Was I American or was I Irish? I never really lost my American accent. When I, when I moved to Ireland my sister who was born in Ireland, she actually has a slight American accent just from living with me. So she never people always ask her, are you, are you American? And she's like, I've never lived there. So it's funny that it's kind of stuck with her, but I moved to Ireland and I suddenly was kind of got this culture shock at the age of five and moving to this new country. And my mother has a very large family, so she has like, two, two brothers and seven sisters, and then I've got like 30 cousins. So , it was a big, a big change from AmeriCorps. It was just the three of us. Moving back to Ireland and. It was a very, you know, Ireland, you know, is, would've been considered a very Catholic country, and it's been kind of secularizing since the nineties up until now. But back then it was still quite Catholic. Like homosexuality was only decriminalized in 1992 and divorce was only made legal in 1995. So, I guess the first kind of sense of, of what I meant to be Irish back then was, You know, you learned Irish in school, you learned to speak Irish in school, and this was very it wasn't taught very well, I would say, and I think most Irish people would agree with that. It's kind of taught like almost like Latin or something as a dead language rather than as a living language. So you're spending time learning all this grammar. And you don't kind of develop that love of it that I think you should. I did go to like Irish summer camp in the Gaeltacht . The Gaeltacht  is the Irish speaking area of Ireland, and I kind of became aware of my Irishness, you know, just through being part of all this and also. I would've introduced myself as American when I was little but people didn't really like that. It was kind of a, like a weird thing to do. So my mom eventually told me, maybe you should just stop paying that. And so throughout my I, you know, as I mentioned, it was a very Catholic country. And when I was in the Gaeltacht in Irish summer camp one of the kids said they were atheist. And I was like, what does that mean? I'm like, I don't believe in God. And I was, and in my head I was like, I didn't know you could do that, I didn't know that was an option. . So I kind of thought about it for a while. I became, we started studying the Reformation in school when I was about 14. And then I learned that Catholics believed in transubstantiation and nobody had really mentioned that before. They didn't really teach the catechism very well, I guess. I'd done my communion and my confirmation, but nobody ever mentioned that. We literally believed that the, the body and blood, you know, was that the bread and water? Oh, sorry. The bread and wine actually became literally, And the body. And I thought that was a very strange thing, that that was a literal thing. It wasn't just symbolic. And then we also studied Calvinism and all that stuff. And I was like, then I started to read the Bible and I was like, then it fun, it finally just dawned on me that I didn't believe any of this, and it was kind of liberating. But it was kind of a way of being d. In a very homogenous society too. You could be a bit of a rebel. So I think I was one of those annoying teenagers who was always questioning everybody and having, trying to have debates with everybody about religion and they didn't enjoy that . And so I went through school and I just remember hating studying the Irish language until eventually when I left school. On the last day, I actually took all my. My Irish textbooks and burnt them and I feel I . Yeah. I mean I feel so much guilt and regret about that and I think about that how important it's to me now and that, that was a real shame that, but I didn't, partially I didn't put the work in, but also I just think the structure. Was not there. I mean so many Irish people come out of outta school not really know, knowing how to speak the language, you know, and I think it is an effective col colonization as well, where, you know, you consider English is a useful language and learning French or Spanish, that's a useful thing, but there's no use for Irish in people's minds, which is a, and I find that a real shame and I. could go back and change that. In university I studied anthropology and history because I was very interested in religion. All throughout my teenage years, I was obsessed with learning about world religions, you know, there was a world religion class in, in secondary school. I didn't get into it, but I begged the teacher to allow me to. Into it because I was so interested in the topic. And he was like, fine, fine. And he kind of thought he'd humor me in one class one day and he was like, well, Michael, maybe you could talk about satanism. That's the topic for today. And I was like, well, let's start with Al Crowley. And he was like, okay, maybe he actually knows what he is talking about So, I went, I. I went to the university sorry, national University of Ireland, Minuth Campus. And it's funny because that used to be known as so it's actually, it's two campuses. They're St. Patrick's college, which is like a, a seminary for priests. And there's the I, which is like the secular version, and they're both, but they both share the same compass. So it's funny, it used to be the, the biggest seminary in Europe. They call it the priest factory cuz they pumped out so many priests that sent, sent them all over the world. And it's when you go out and you walk down the corridors, you see all the graduating classes. So you go back to 1950 and you see a graduating class of like a hundred priests. And every year as you're going down the corridor, it gets smaller and smaller and smaller. Until I think the year I graduated, there was like two people graduating as priests. Yeah. So that was, that was a, I decided to study history and anthropology at n Y Minuth and one of the books that I read. Was kind of a gateway into thinking about land and language, which are two things that are really important to me in my, when I think about Paganism. It's a book called wisdom Sits in Places by Keith Bato, bass by Keith Bassell, and. I'm just gonna read a little bit here from the book because he was an anthropologist working with the Apache, the Western Apache, to try and remap the land using the Native Apache words rather than the, the English words. So trying to make a native map and working with Apache people to find all the true, the true names of all these. so this is the quote, but already on only our second day in the country together a problem had problem had come up for the third time in as many tries. I have mispronounced the Apache name of the boggy swale before us. And Charles, who is weary of repeating it, has a guarded look in his eyes after watching the name for a fourth. I acknowledged defeat and attempted to apologize for my flawed linguistic performance. I'm sorry, Charles. I can't get it. I'll work on it later. It's in the machine. It doesn't matter. It matters. Charles says softly to me in English, and then turning to speak to Morley. He addresses him in Western Apache, is what he said. What he's doing isn't right. It's not good. He seems to be in a. Why is he in a hurry? It's disrespectful. Our ancestors made this name. They made it just as it is. They made it for a reason. They spoke it first a long time ago. He's repeating the speech of our ancestors. He doesn't know that. Tell him he's repeating the speech of our ancestors. And I'm gonna just there's another section here, a little, a few pages. But then unexpectedly in one of those courteous turnabouts that Apache people employ to assuage embarrassment in salvage damaged feelings, Charles himself comes to the rescue with a quick corroborative grin. He announces he is missing several teeth and that my problem with the place name may be attributable to his lack of dental equipment. Sometimes he says he is hard to underst. His nephew, Jason, recently told him that, and he knows he tends to speak softly. Maybe the combination of too few teeth and two little volume accounts for my failing. Short morally, on the other hand, is not so encumbered though shy. Two, a tooth or two. He retains the good ones for talking and because he's not afraid to speak up, except as everyone knows in the presence of gar women no one has trouble hearing what he. Maybe if Morley repeated the place name again slowly and with ample force, I would get it right. It's worth a try, cousin. And then he, I'm just gonna skip forward a bit and he successfully pronounces the name, which translates as water Lies with mud in an open container. Relieved and pleased. I pronounce the name slowly. Then I, then a bit more rapidly and again, as it might be spoken. In normal conversation, Charles listens and nods his head in. . Yes. He says in Apache, that is how our ancestors made it a long time ago, just as it is to name this place. Mm-hmm. So this became important to me when thinking about the Irish language because something similar happened in Ireland in the you know, we have all our native Irish place. But in the 1820s the British Army's Ordinance survey came and decided they were gonna make these names pro pronounceable to English ears. And so they kind of tore up the native pronunciation and kind of push an English pronunciation on top. So you have these very strange English Anglo size versions of Irish Place names Yucca: Mm-hmm. Michael: Soin in is is probably better known in English as dingle, but doesn't really have anything to do with the Irish. And there are plenty of, there are so many examples of this and I think when you're trying to learn about a landscape in your relation to a ship, to a landscape, it is important to know the native place. It's something that I think about a lot and I try to learn. One of my favorite writers is named Tim Robinson, and he's well he died in 2020. But I had the opportunity to meet him in 2009 and he was an English cartographer. But he moved to the west of Ireland, to the Iron Islands and also to Kamara. So he kind of moved between those two places. He lived there for more than 30 years, and what he actually did was he went out and mapped the landscape and talked to local people, and he was able to find some of the place names that had been lost over the years that weren't on the official maps, and he was able to help recreate a Gaelic map of those areas. I think that's a really kind of religious or spiritual activity to go out onto the land and walk it. And to name it and to name it correctly. And I think that's what I think my pagan path is in a way. It's to go and walk the land and learn it, what to call it. Cause I think language is the most important tool we have as pagans. Mark: Hmm. Michael: So those are, that's kind of when I started to think about this stuff. I've always been interested in folk. It was actually funny. There was, it started with a video game one of the legend of Zelda video games called Major's Mask Mark: Hmm. Yucca: Yep. Michael: in, in the game, they actually have like a mask festival and they dis they discuss the the history of the festival. Anna was just like, wow, I didn't, I ended up making masks with my sister and we kind of pretended to. A little mask festival of our own Yucca: Mm-hmm. Michael: that you're, you're familiar with that? Yucca? Yucca: Yes. Yeah, I played a lot of it. Michael: Yeah. So, but I guess I really started to think about folklore when when I watched the Wickerman as um, as a teenager. I was probably at 16 when I watched it, and it kind of opened my eyes completely. And we've talked a lot about this in the group. And I. It's watched as a horror movie in a way, but   I think I really got into the, the paganism idea of, of paganism as a teenager because of watching the Wickman and just the symbolism and the pageantry. And I also just like the idea. These island people turning on the state in the form of, of the policeman. So that's kind of been something I've that I've really enjoyed over the years, watching that every every May as part of my, my, my annual ritual so, you know, after university, I, I moved to South Korea to teach English, and, but at the same time I was quite into Buddhism. I had been practicing some Zen Buddhism from about the age of 18, and, but not like, more as just a practice rather than believing in any of it. Not believing in reincarnation or anything like that. I just found the ritual of it very beautiful. And I ended up going and doing a temple stay in a, in a place at, at a temple. Up in the mountains and it was very beautiful and really amazing. You know, something you'd see in a movie because the monk, the head monk actually brought us out into a bamboo grove and we sat there meditating just with all surrounded by bamboo. And it was waving in the wind and it felt like a correction, tiger Hidden dragon or something like that. And one of the powerful events that happened on that trip. Doing the Buddhist meal ceremony where we ate in in the style of a Buddhist monk. And the idea is that you do not leave any food behind. After you're, after you're finished eating, you've, you eat all the food, and then when you wash the bowls and they kind of put the communal water back into the, the, the waste bowl, there should be no no bit of food, nothing. It should just be clean water. That comes out of, after everybody finishes washing all their bowls. So we followed all the steps to do that and, you know, some people really, really weren't into it. They didn't wanna do the work of, of being extremely thorough. And there were a few rice pieces of rice in the water at the end and the head monk said to us oh, that will now get, you're, you're gonna cause pain to the hungry to ghost. Because the hungry goats ghosts have holes in their throats, and when we pour the water outside for the hungry ghosts, the rice particles are gonna get stuck in their throats. And a lot of people were like, what? What are you talking about Mark: Hmm. Michael: But I thought that was beautiful because it doesn't, not, you don't have to. It's a story that has a purpose, and that's why, you know, It made me think about the superstitions that we have. And I don't know if I like superstition like these, calling it that. Cause I think a lot of these things have purpose and you have to look for the purpose behind them. And the purpose of that story of the honky go story, maybe for him it is about not causing harm to these, these spirits, but it's also about not wasting food. And I think it, it has more power and more meaning. And you remember. More thoroughly when you have a story like that to back up this, this practice. So I think it kind of made me rethink a lot about the kind of folkloric things that I, in my, in the Irish tradition and that, you know, I think about things like fairy forts, which are, you know, the, these are the archeological sites that you find around Ireland. Like, I think there's like 60,000 left around the country. These, these circular. Homesteads that made a stone or, or saw, or saw that you find all over the country and people don't disturb them because they're afraid they'll get fair, bad luck. The, if you, if you disturb the, the fair fort the ferry's gonna come after you , or if you could, or if you cut down a tree, a lone tree. Lone trees that grow in the middle of fields that don't have a, a woodland beside them, just singular trees. These are known as fairy trees and it's bad luck to cut them down. But I feel like these folk beliefs help preserve the past as well, because, you know, farmers who don't have this belief, they don't have any problem tearing down fray, forts and that kind of thing. They just see it as a, something in the way of them farming, especially in the kind of age of industrial agriculture. Yeah. So it just made, that was when I started to think about how important it is to keep folk belief alive. And I've really, and I really started to study Irish folk belief after that point. And I lived in South Korea as I mentioned. I met my wife there, she's from Iowa and she was also teaching in, in South Korea, and we moved to Vietnam after that. And we lived there for a couple of years, and I might come back to that later. But fast forwarding, we moved to Iowa then in 2013, and I'm teaching a course in Irish. At a local community college, but I always start with this poem by Shama Heini Boland. And I just wanted to read two extracts from it. So the first stands out is we have no prairies to slice a big sun at evening everywhere. The eye concedes to encroaching. And then moving downwards. Our pioneers keep striking inwards and downwards. Every layer they strip, they, every layer they strip seems camped on before. So I, I started with that initially, kind of trying to, as, it was almost like a gateway for my students to kind of look at. Look at Iowa with its historic prairies, which don't really exist anymore. It's all farmland. There's very little prairie land left. I think maybe 2% of the state is prairie. But that idea, that idea of our pioneers strike downwards, and I've been thinking about that a lot as well, that that's kind of a, a colonial look at the land because this land, the American land has is just as camped. As Ireland, and I've been kind of experiencing that more and more. I have a friend who's an archeologist here and just hearing them talk about the kinds of fines that they have. You know, we lived in a town where there was a Native American fishing weir was a couple of hundred years old. It you could kind of see the remains, but it mostly washed away by the time we had. But I did see an old postcard of it from the seventies, and you could see it very clearly. And so just make, and then we always it's become a ritual every every autumn, we go up to northeast Iowa to these, to these effigy mounds, which are some Native American mounds up there on a bluff, just overlooking the miss. Mark: Hmm. Michael: And that's really amazing to look at that and experience and experience that. And you know, I'd love to go back, unfortunately, Shamus, he died more than 10 years ago now, but I'd love to go back and ask him if he would consider rewriting that line, you know, because this land is just as a count on Yucca: Mm-hmm. Michael: and I'm trying to, trying to make sense of that and what it means. As an Irish person living in America, Yucca: Mm. Michael: Cuz we, Irish people are victims of col colonialism,  Mark: Hmm.  Michael: Irish people, when they moved to America, they just became white as well and had the same colonial attitudes as everybody. And I'm trying to kind of, but you know, there's, there's, there's kind of stories of reciprocation as well. Where during the famine, the Irish famine the, I think, I believe it was the Chota Nation sent Emin relief to the AR to Ireland. Even though they didn't have much themselves, they still saw this. People in need across the water and they sent money to help. And, you know, there's that connection between the Chta nation and the Irish has continued to this day. But I am just trying to figure out what it means to be an Irish person and a pagan living in this country. And that's kind of where I, where I am right now. But to get back to how I got into Ethiopia, paganism I mentioned earlier that I was really into the Wickerman and I found this group called Folk folk Horror Revival on Facebook. And somebody one day mentioned that there was this group called Atheopagan. And so I decided to join and I found a lot of like-minded people. And I've been kind of involved in the community for, for, I think that was maybe 2018. Mark: Mm-hmm. Michael: And I've been involved in the community since then and maybe on a bigger, I've been much more involved since Covid started and we started doing our Saturday mixers. And I think I've made maybe 90% of those Mark: something Michael: and we've, yeah, and we've been doing that for the last three years and it's just been. It's a really amazing, it's one of the highlights of my week to spend time with with other people in that, in that hour and 45 minutes that we spend every Saturday. Mark: Mm. Michael: Mm-hmm. Mark: Yeah, I, I really agree with you. That's, I, it's a highlight of my week as well. Such warm, thoughtful people and so diverse and living in so many different places. It's yeah, it's just a really good thing to do on a Saturday morning for me. And. We'll probably get into this more a little bit later, but the idea of creating human connection and community building I know is really important to you and it's really important to me too. I think there have been other sort of naturalistic, pagan traditions that have been created by people, but they just kind of plunked them on the internet and let them sit. And to me it's. That would be fine if I were just gonna do this by myself. But when other people started saying, I like this, I want to do this too. To me that meant, well then we should all do it together. Right? Let's, let's build a community and support one another in doing this. And so the Saturday mixers, when we, when Covid started, I think. I mean, to be honest, COVID did some great things for the Ethiopia, pagan community.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: yeah. Kind of accidentally, but that's, that's Yucca: Well that's the silver linings, right? That's one of the things we, you know, life goes on. We have to find the, the, the benefits and the good things, even in the challenging times. Mark: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.  Michael: yeah. I think. I'm just thinking back to when we started. So it's kind of, we have maybe six or seven regulars who come to every meeting maybe. And then we have other people who join now and then, but I'm just trying to think back to the first meeting. I think we, that's when the idea of doing virtual ritual began as well in that first meeting. And we were trying to figure out how to do.  Yucca: Was that was the first meeting before Covid or was it as a response to Covid? Mark: You know, honestly, I don't remember. I think it must have been in response to Covid because everybody was shut in and, you know, everybody was kind of starving for human contact. Michael: I think the first one may have been March or April. 2020, Yucca: Okay, so right there at the. Michael: Yeah, right at the beginning. Yeah. And I think, I remember in the first meeting we were talking about ritual ideas and I think the first suggestion I came up with was like I'd love to somebody do like a, describe what an atheopagan temple might look. Mark: Oh yeah. Michael: Yeah. And I left, and I think you were recording the meetings at that time, but we don't record 'em anymore, just so people can feel free to be themselves and not have a recorded recording of themselves out there, . But I know that, I think James who you interviewed recently he, he was listening to that one, I believe, and he came the next week and actually had prepared a guided meditation. Of what a pagan temple would be like to him. And it was a walk through nature. I think that was the first, our first online ritual together. Mark: Yeah, I remember that now. Yeah, and it's been, it's really been a journey trying to figure out how, how can you do these ritual things over a, a video conferencing platform. In a way that makes everybody feel like they're participating and engaged. Right. So that there's a, a transformation of consciousness. But I think we've done pretty well, to be honest. I mean, some of the rituals that we've done have been really quite moving. Michael: Yeah. And I think the ritual framework that you've worked at translates very well to. A Zoom conference as well. I dunno if maybe, if he wants to describe that, what the usual atheopagan ritual would look like. Mark: Sure. We've, we've talked about this before. The, the, the ritual structure that I proposed in my book is basically a, a five step process where the first is arrival, which is sort of, Transitioning into the ritual state of mind from the ordinary state of mind, and then the invocation of qualities that are a part that we'd like to be a part of the ritual with us, which is sort of the equivalent in Wicca or other pagan traditions of invoking spirits or gods or what have you, ancestors, what have you. And then the main working of the ritual, which varies depending on what the purpose of the ritual is. But it can be, well, we've done lots of different kinds of things. We've braided ribbons and then tied, not tied magical knots in them. We've made siles, we've we've done just lots of different kinds of things. And then gratitude expressions of gratitude. The things that we're grateful for. And then finally, benediction, which is sort of the closing of the ritual at a declaration that we're moving back into ordinary time. Yucca: So how does that look in, in a meeting, like a Zoom meeting In a digital format? Mark: Michael, you want to take that one or should I? Michael: So you know, you have maybe, I think usually when we have a ritual more people attend that and so we might have 12 people there and often  Yucca: cameras on. Michael: Camera's on. Well, it's optional. Yeah. If you don't feel comfortable having your camera on, that's completely fine and you don't even have to speak. We do encourage people just to you know, leave a message in the chat so you can just listen in. You can engage as much or as little as you want. And you, you, so. We have all the people on in the conference, and maybe we'll try and get some more of the senses involved as well. So sometimes we'll like candles and everybody will have a candle in front of them. I do know for for some of our sound rituals. Mark, you've used two cameras where you, you aim one camera at maybe a focus, like what's one of the examples of that that you. Mark: Well we did that both at Sown and at Yu. So both the Halls ritual and the Yule ritual where I would create a focus or alter setup with thematic and symbolic things relating to the season. and then I would point, I would log into Zoom with my phone and point my phone at that. And then, and then I'd log in separately on my laptop for myself as a person, and then I could spotlight the focus so that it's kind of the centerpiece of what everybody experiences on their screen and sets the atmosphere. Michael: Yeah. So just a virtual focus that everybody can, everybody can virtually gather around. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Michael: Yeah. And I think we've also used a Pinterest board in the past as well for people. I think it was at Sound again, we had that Pinterest board where people could put up notes about. Their ancestors or loved ones that they were That's correct, isn't it? Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Or pictures of people that had passed recently or. Yucca: mm. Michael: yeah. So yeah, there's a lot of digital space that you can use for this ritual. We also try not to involve too many props as well. Because we wanna make it as easy as possible for people of all abilities. And just if you don't have the space for something, for a large proper if you don't wanna make a lot of noise, you know, we're not gonna have you using chimes or things like that. So we try and make it as easy as possible. Sometimes we do invite you to bring some food to eat as well, because, you know, a lot of these are feasting rituals. So we maybe, if you feel comfortable bringing some refreshments, you might want to do. And just have a friendly meal with people online. For example, we're actually gonna start doing I'm gonna be leading full Moon meals every month on the, on the, so the first one's gonna be December 7th. And I'll post, post about that on Discord, and I think Mark will post about that in the Facebook group. Yeah. And so the idea is everybody just comes. Joins the Zoom meeting and everybody should have their meal. Whether you're, whether that's lunch or if you're in a different time zone, maybe there'll be dinner or maybe it's just a snack. And then we'll spend a minute just thinking about the providence of the food and then we'll eat us and maybe people can talk about the food that they're eating and what it means to. And I'm hoping to make that a monthly event that we meet every full moon to share a meal together Mark: That sounds. I, I, I really I have pagan guilt over how little I pay attention to the full moon. I'm, I'm always, I'm always aware of what phase the moon is in, but I, I don't do a lot in the way of observances of the phases of the moon. And so, I'm excited to have this added in to something that I can attend. Michael: Mm-hmm. . But yeah, as you can see from that format, it's very simple. And again, you, if, if people listening would like to attend as well, there's no obligation to keep your. Your camera on, there's no obligation to speak. You just, you can just listen in and just feel part of the, part of the community that way. Yucca: Mm-hmm. So in the mixers sometimes ritual, are there discussions or what else do the mixers. Michael: Usually the mixer is kind of a freeform thing. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Michael: Maybe we'll have a topic sometimes, but usually people just come and do a check in and talk about how they're, how they're getting on that week and if there's anything they wanna discuss, we just open it up to that. Depending on the size of the turn, we may require some kind of etiquette stuff. So if there are a lot of people and we don't want people to. Shut it down or have spoken over. So we'll ask people to raise their hands if they wanna speak. That's, that really is only when there's a lot of people and, and often I, I know I'm somebody who likes to talk, so it's a, I think raising hands also gives people who are less confident, or, I'm sorry, not less confident, just not at, don't feel like interrupting. It gives them an opportu. To to have their say as well and be called on mm-hmm. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Mm. Mark: I think it's really good that we've implemented that. It, it's, it helps. Michael: Mm-hmm. I think one of the really cool rituals we had recently was for like the ATO Harvest, so that was when was that? That was in September or October. In September, yeah. Yeah. So. We were trying, I mean, usually it's, you could do some kind of harvest related and I think we've done that in the past. But I have a book called Celebrating Irish Festivals by Ruth Marshall. And this is my go-to book for, for, for ritual ideas. And this is, and I like to. Kind of some of the traditional holidays and maybe just steal from them. . So Michael Mass is is the holiday around that time in Ireland? It's a Christian holiday, but it's also it's a  Yucca: were older. Michael: yeah, yeah, Yucca: Christians took for the older Michael: yeah, yeah, yeah. you know, it's about St. And he's known for slaying a dragon as just as St. George was known for slaying a dragon. But I thought, well, let's turn this on this head and let's celebrate our inner dragons. Let's bring our dragons to life. So it was the whole ritual was about dragons. And we actually drew Dragons, drew our inner dragons and shared them. Talked about what they. And kind of we were feeding our inner dragon so that they could warm us throughout the coming winter. Yucca: Hmm. Michael: Mm-hmm. Mark: as well as watching the home. Star Runner Strong Door, the Ator video, Michael: Oh yeah, Mark: which you, you have to do if you've got dragons as a theme. It's just too funny to avoid. Michael: That's an old flash cartoon from the early two thousands. That was pretty popular. Mark: Mm-hmm. Michael: Yeah. Track toward the ator. Google it, and in fact, I did a, I did the hot chip challenge as part of that ritual as  Mark: That's right. Yeah.  Michael: where I ate a very, very hot tortilla chip on camera. And. It was it was painful, but I'm sure, I don't know if it entertained other people, but it was, it was fun Mark: Oh yeah. It was fun. Michael: So, yeah, they're like, I mean, these rituals aren't all, they're, they're fun and they're kind of silly and goofy and but I mean, I thought at the same time they're very meaningful because people really opened up in that one  Mark: Yeah.  Michael: and shared some really profe profound truth. That was one of my favorites actually, and I hope we do another, another dragon invoking ritual in the future. Mark: Maybe in the spring Michael: yeah. Mark: you do it at, at both of the equinoxes. Michael: Mm-hmm. Mark: so you've joined the Atheopagan Society Council, which is great. Thank you so much for your, your volunteering and your effort. What do you think about the future? How do you, how do you see where this community is going and what would you like to see? What's, what's your perspective on that? Michael: Yeah, so just before I discovered the Pagan Facebook group I had attended A local cups meeting. So that's the covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans. And so it was just a taro reading workshop and, you know, I was, I, I like kind of using these kind of rituals just for their beauty and, but not, for not, not seeing anything supernatural in them. I was, it was amazing to, to find a group that was interested in these kind of things too, but without the they weren't incredulous. So I guess what I'm hoping for is that as we, as we kind of find more people who are, are, are aligned with us, maybe we can have more in. Experiences. That was one of the great, the great highlights of, of last year was attending the Century retreat and meeting all, all these amazing people in real life and being able to spend time together in real life. And I hope that as we kind of, as the word gets out about this group, more and more of us can meet in person or as we are able to, Mark: Mm-hmm. Michael: That's what I really hope for the future that you're finding your, your people that we are, we are being able to get these local groups together and then spend time on these important days of the year. And I believe the Chicago Afu Pagan group was able to do that not too long ago. And I know Mark, your local group meets quite regularly as well. Mark: We, we meet for the, for the eight holidays, for the eight Sabbath. So yeah, we're gonna get together on the 18th of December and burn a fire in the fire pit and do a, a ritual and enjoy food and drink with one another. And yeah, it's a, it's a really good feeling that that feeling of getting together is just You can't replace it with online connection, but online connection is still really good. So that's why, that's why we continue to do the mixers every Saturday. And Glen Gordon has also been organizing a mixer on Thursday evenings. Well evenings if you're in the Americas. And. Yeah, there's just, there's, there's a bunch of different opportunities to plug in and it's always great to see somebody new. Michael: Yeah, I think that would be another hope as well that, you know, if you've been on the fence about coming to a mixer I hope that what we've described today maybe entices you to come along. You know that there's no expectations and you can, you can share, you can just sit in the background and watch, or you can participate. There's no expectations and it's just a nice way to, to connect with people, so, Yucca: how would somebody join in? They find the, the link on the Facebook discord. Michael: that's right. Yeah. So I think, mark, you post it regularly on the Facebook group, and it's also posted on the disc. As well. So, and it's the same time every Saturday, so it's 12:15 PM Central for me, so, and that's like 1115 for you, mark, on the, Mark: No, it's 1115 for Yucca. Michael: Oh, okay. Mark: It's 10 15 for me. Michael: Okay. Okay. Yucca: one 15 for Eastern. Then  Michael: one, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yucca: Hmm Mark: And. Michael: and it's always the same time, and I think we've, I think we've only missed one week, maybe in the last three years. Mark: Yeah, I think that's right. I wasn't available and I couldn't find somebody else to host or something like that, but yeah, it's been very consistent. And I see no reason to think it isn't gonna keep being consistent. But yeah, we, you know, we welcome new people. And if you're not in the Americas, that's fine too. We've got a couple of Dutch people that come in all the time. There's a, an Austrian woman who lives in Helsinki who participates. So Yucca: E eight nine ish kind of for Europe, Mark: Yeah.  Michael: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We've even had on the Thursday night mixer, we've even had Australians join occasionally too. So Yucca: That sounds like that'd be early for them then, right?  Michael: yeah,  Yucca: getting up in the. Michael: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. But I'd I'd love for some of the listeners to come and join us on one of the mixers and then cuz you know, you bring new ideas. And I we're always looking for new ritual ideas, Mark: Mm. Michael: That kind of bring meaning to our lives and to everybody else's. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yeah, cuz that's, I mean, that's what we're doing, right? We're, we're create, we're, it's a creative process for us. We've got these sort of frameworks like the Wheel of the Year and the, the ritual format that I laid out. Although people can use other ritual formats too. That's fine. But it's, it's an ongoing process of creation and of taking some old traditions and folding them in where they fit but creating new stuff as well. One of the innovations that we, that we've been doing for the l past year or so is if people want to be done with something, if they want to be finished with something in their. They can write it in the chat and then I take the chat file and I print it on my printer and I take it and I burn it in my cauldron. So it is actually being burnt physically. But it just takes a little bit of technical processing before that happens. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: And it's those kinds of innovations that are really useful for online rituals. And boy, if you have new ideas about things we can do for online rituals, I, I would love to hear 'em. Yucca: So thank you so much for sharing your story and your visions or the future with us. This has been, it's, it's really been beautiful to hear and to get that insight. Thank you, Michael. Michael: Well, thank you for having me on. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: It's been delightful hearing from you and, and I, I gotta say, I, I feel like our community is very lucky. You've been exploring religion and and folklore and ritual for a long time in a lot of different frameworks and I feel really fortunate that you've landed with us cuz I like you so. Michael: Okay. Well thanks very much. I like you too, Mark: Okay folks, that'll be all for this week. And as always, we'll have another episode for you next week on the Wonder Science Based Paganism. Have a great week. Yucca: Thanks everybody.  

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E40 TRANSCRIPT:----more----     Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts, Yucca,  Mark: and I'm the other one Mark.  Yucca: And today is very exciting cuz we are actually going to be interviewing you, mark, about a project that you've been working pretty hard on and has just passed a a  Mark: m. Right. I've been writing the, the second atheo paganism book. And, or, or, well, I'll get into details about exactly what it is, but I've been writing that for a year and I just completed the manuscript and I'm ready to submit to Llewellyn the publisher. Mm-hmm. . Which is good cuz it's due on November 30th, so it needed to happen pretty soon. Hey, you're. Yeah, a little bit. Yucca: That's, that's impressive. Yeah. . So let's start with you know what, well, first of all, this is your second book, right? It's  Mark: actually my third. Your third, okay. I have a collection of poetry that I published in 2020 called A Red Kiss. Mm-hmm. . But this is my second nonfiction.  Yucca: Okay, so can you tell us a little bit about what it is? Does it have a set title?  Mark: It has a working title. Okay. I, I hope that Llewellyn will find that to be an acceptable title. It's called “Round We Dance: Joyous Living Around the Year and Throughout Life.” Mm. Okay. And so it's a little bit different than the first AOP Paganism book. In the first book, there were essentially two sections, and the first one was kind of about my exploration of what a religion is and what it does for us and the science behind that and kind of leads up to. Leads up to the question of, okay, well if we were gonna create a a religion tomorrow, what would that look like? How would we incorporate all scientific knowledge and critical thinking and still have those beneficial effects, those good feelings that come from rituals and celebrations and community and all that stuff? So that's the first section of the first. And then the second section is about an implementation of those ideas, which is atheism. Mm-hmm. . So it explains about the principles and the four sacred pillars and the wheel of the year, and a ritual format and all that kind of stuff. So that's the first book, the one that's already out and that I'm sure a number of our listeners have this book is a little bit more general in its audience. Okay. The i, the idea here is that, You know, there's this flood of people who are leaving institutional religions. Mm-hmm. , the, the number is just climbing with every passing year. The number of people that self identify as Christian in the United States plummeted by 12% over the last 10 years. Wow. So, and, and what most of those people are becoming is not some other religion. They're becoming what are known as nuns, n o n E S. Mm-hmm. , not, not nuns, like Catholic nuns, , nuns. Like, I'll have none that, yeah. Right. And. The nuns subdivide into several categories, some of whom are kind of hardcore anti theists. Many of them feel very burned by their religious experience and angry and heard about that. You have other people who are just disinterested and feel like the values of institutional religions like Christianity don't resonate with themselves. They don't, they're not into the, the biases and the mm-hmm. . Shaming and all that kind of stuff, and many of those folks are looking for something else. They're looking for something that adds meaning to their life, that builds community that they can share with. That's something that they can share with their families. That gives them a sense of purpose and focus and the kind of pleasure that comes from having rituals in your life. Right? Mm. and Atheopagan is an answer to that, but this book is more about, the book talks about Atheopagan is a lot, but, and it explains the Atheopagan ritual format and the Wheel of the Year. Mm-hmm. . But it's really meant for that broader category of people who. Feel something's missing and are working to find something that will infuse their life with more of that sense of meaning and specialness and wonder.  Yucca: Mm-hmm. . Okay. So do you feel that it would be something valuable to people who do identify as Aio Pagans as well? Mark: I do, because it's a much more how to kind of book. Mm. The the first book was much more theoretical. This book has sections on, you know, examples of different kinds of healing rituals and different kinds of rites of passage and different kinds of ways to celebrate the holidays of the Wheel of the year. And A, a section on ritual arts, which includes things like making siles and talismans and spell jars and handle magic and all those kinds of things as well. So there's a lot more sort of practical roll your sleeves up stuff in this book that I think will really be of use to people in the Atheopagan community. Hmm.  Yucca: That sounds like so much fun to write.  Mark: It was, it was, and that section that I just mentioned was particularly fun. Mm-hmm. , all the, the different, you know, the, the different sorts of witchy, ritual arts that people use in the course of implementing their, their ritual practice. Right. Because they're fun even when they're even when. Meant to observe something very solemn. There is a pleasure in implementing those kinds of practices. Mm-hmm. , which is part of why we do them right, and why I offer them to people that don't have a ritual practice now as an example of things that they could do. Mm-hmm. .  Yucca: Hmm. So you mentioned that Atheopagan is mentioned quite a bit in the book. Yes. But do think this is a book. Somebody could give to a relative or a friend who has a religious practice that isn't necessarily agonism, but still benefit from your  Mark: book. Sure. So long as that person's religious path isn't one that is exclusive mm-hmm. , there are a lot of religious paths out there that say, you have to follow our path and no other path, but that, right. Mm-hmm. and, you know, it's sinful or wrong, or, Erroneous or whatever it is. If you do anything else. I think there's a lot of activities in here and a lot of ideas in this book that can add to people's enjoyment of life. Mm-hmm. , and I think anybody who is interested in kind of a deeper inquiry in living as a human. Could enjoy this book.  Yucca: Mm. Okay. So maybe the, the friend that is a Pagan, but you know, they're kind of into the God thing or the fairies or that sort of thing. They still have a lot to to get out of your book. I  Mark: think so. Yeah. You know, there may be a couple of parts where they kind of bristle a little bit because I talk about critical thinking and, you know, I have my own position on that. Right. But but by and large, you know, The, the tutorial on how to make a si that'll work for anybody. Whatever they believe about Gods. So, yeah. You know, I, I think all that stuff could, it, it, it'll still be a, a helpful compendium of information for people, I think, to kind of a one stop place to go and look at how to do these things. Yucca: Hmm. Okay. And so was there a favorite section of  your.  Mark: You know, I have to say that ritual arts section was really fun to write. Just all the different cool witchy things that we like to do, you know, making potions and working with You know, with written messages and ceiling them with ceiling wax and, you know, or burning them in a cauldron, cauldron, magic, things like that. That you don't have to believe in anything supernatural about. And I'm very clear, like in the section on divination, I, I say at the outset, we have no evidence that fortune telling really exists. Right. But we do know that our subconscious minds exist. Mm-hmm. , and we can learn a lot more about the current situation, the present by using complex symbol systems to sort of tease out what the thinking underneath our thinking is through the process of using these divination tools. And once again, it's a really cool, evocative aesthetic thing to do. But it also can have a. A real emotional and spiritual value. Mm. So writing that section was a lot of fun.  Yucca: Nice. Well, it seems like a pretty, a pretty big process to write. Not just that section, but all of the sections. Was there, were there any insights that really ended up surprising you that you had in your process of creating this  Mark: book? Yeah, I'm, I'm wondering about that. One of the things that I realized is that in talking about the Wheel of the Year mm-hmm. , you know, there's a, there's a little section at the bottom of the discussion of the Wheel of the Year for people in the Southern Hemisphere mm-hmm. , because everything's flipped by six months. Right. Their winter solstice is in June. Right. And what occurred to me is that in the course of describing the names that I've given to the stations on the Wheel of the Year for, if you're in the Southern hemisphere, it really doesn't make any sense to call the 31st of October Mayday. Yeah, that's, that doesn't work very well. So, so I renamed it Summer Tide for the Southern Hemisphere Summer Tide. Okay. Which I think can work a lot better. Yeah. and I also renamed in, in the first Atheopagan book and in, in the writings on the blog and all that kind of stuff, I've referred to the winter solstice as u mm-hmm. , which is a no word meaning wheel. Mm-hmm. and I decided that, you know, I already made this decision that I'm not gonna draw stuff forward from other various cultures. Maybe it would just be better to call that mid-winter. Mm. In this book, I've called it Mid-Winter instead of ull. It's a small chain. Yeah. Yeah. And there's, there's not, there's brief descriptions of the principles and the four pillars, just so that people understand what Athe Paganism is. But this is really a book about rituals and so it's much more, you know, implementation. How do you do this stuff? How do you get yourself in the right mood? What is the ritual state? How can you cultivate the ritual state? What are the various phases that we go through in implementing a ritual? How do you prepare yourself before and, you know, ground and, and reestablish yourself after a ritual? , lots of, of those kinds of things. It's a very practical book.  Yucca: Mm. And what was your process like writing it? Did you, did you use any ritual to write or create the book?  Mark: Well, it, it's, it's kind of funny. We were talking about this in the Saturday Zoom mixer this morning we're recording on Saturdays. We usually do. What I ended up doing is I have a drop front desk an old antique secretary that you, you drop the, that you lift it down? Yeah. That, yeah. You just, you lower that down and then it becomes the shelf that you write on. Mm-hmm. and I was writing there with my laptop on the shelf. So what ended up happening was that opening, that desk became the ritual beginning of my writing periods. There were times it was very hard to make myself, you know, barricade myself in my room for four hours at a pop and just write right? But that was what was required. The book is currently at something over 56,000 words and the specs for. Turning the manuscript in were between 55 and 60,000. So getting there required a lot of effort. Right. A lot of just sitting for hours and writing things, and then editing and editing and editing and editing. Yucca: Mm-hmm. , tens of thousands of words. I mean that's,  Mark: yeah, that's a lot of words. It's a lot of words. Yeah. It really is. Yeah. I mean, this, this is, this is a book so that that ritual opening of the desk became the, the symbolic moment when I clicked into, okay, now I'm a writer, now I'm writing mm-hmm. mode. Now that the, now that the work is done, I haven't opened the desk since . I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to recalculate my my thinking. About what opening the desk means.  Yucca: No. Now you haven't worked with this particular editor before, right? So you don't really know, you know how much they're going to revisions they're gonna want, or, or things like that. Mark: I have no idea and I'm nervous. You know, for all I know, I'm gonna get back, you know, 300 edits and I'm gonna have to read through everyone, decide if I agree with them or not. Fight over the ones that I'm really willing to fight for and so forth. Yeah. I, I honestly, I just have no idea of what that process is gonna be like, but the book is projected to come out in the second half of 2023. Mm-hmm. , so there is plenty of time yet, which. I mean, that sounds like a lot of time, but it's really not that much time when you consider, you know, that we've gotta get cover art together and finalize the whole manuscript, get it all laid out properly and then start the marketing process. You know, because promotion starts before the book actually gets published. There's pre. Re release sales and all that kind of stuff. Right. And because I self-published the first book, I'm really not familiar with those parts of the process at all. I'm really interested in finding out how that all works.  Yucca: Right. Yeah. So that's exciting cuz it's a very different process than, than what you've done before. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. ,  Mark: yeah. Mm-hmm. . I, I think I've talked about this maybe, maybe on the podcast before. I'm not sure. I will probably not make as much money on this book as I did on my self-published book. Sure. And the reason for that is that I actually get eight bucks for every copy of my book that gets of my first book that gets bought. I'll probably get something like 80 cents . Mm-hmm. , from these, but hopefully the, the promotion and marketing and all that kind of stuff that the publisher will do will mean that a lot more copies get sold. Right. I made a deliberate decision that I wanted my ideas to get a lot broader distribution. This. And,  Yucca: and there's a prestige that goes along with being published through a traditional publish.  Mark: Yes. Right. Yeah, I agree. I agree. And now I'm kinda locked into them because in my contract is that they have right of first refusal of my next book. So , they'll, they'll get to decide whether they wanna publish that one too. I can't get myself out quite that easily.  Yucca: do you, so that was gonna be one of my questions was what's next? Do you have another book on the.  Mark: Do not have any idea about another book? Can  Yucca: you even think about it right now?  Mark: I mean mm-hmm. No, I mean, my guess is that if I were gonna write another book, because this one has been really exhaustively practical. Mm-hmm. probably be much more of a mythopoetic book. Mm-hmm. that would be poems and stories and you know, kind of. Kind of a walk into an atheopagan world. Mm-hmm. of wonder and joy and experience and meaning. But that's a long way off. And I'm, I'm certainly not going to open my desk now and start working on that I'm I'm taking a break for a while and, you know, dealing with these edits, I, my work is by no means finished. I'm still gonna have a lot of work to do, but this phase at least has been completed, so that's exciting. Yeah. I'm so, I appreciate that you were willing to, Do this kind of prequel, promotional thing on the podcast. Yeah, it's I mean, I'm sure we'll talk about the book again as it comes closer to publication time. Yucca: We will, it will let everybody know, you know, when that, when that's happening and you know where to, where to pick it up when it happens. Do you know if there will be an audio component? Was that part of your discussion or contract?  Mark: I know Luellen does do audio books, and I think it's probably a function of how many copies they sell. Of a given book to see whether they would do an audio version or not. I know that they do that for some of their other better known authors. Right. I don't know. I, I think they have the option to do it in my contract, but it's not guaranteed.  Yucca: Would this be a format that would work very well with audiobook since you have a lot of instructions? Kind of recipe type  Mark: things. Yeah. And actually there are a bunch of recipes. There's a whole section in the appendices on, you know, with recipes for the different seasonal holidays. Mm-hmm. , you know, things. Would go well at that time of year. Yeah, I'm not sure. I, I don't know that that's necessarily the, the best way to absorb this information because listening to someone reading recipes is probably not the best  Yucca: well, I ask most motivating kind of time. I love books and I suspect a lot of our listeners are on a podcast right now, you know, may enjoy that as well. So it's always interesting to see if that's, If that's a possibility, if that's standard, you know how that works. Right,  Mark: right. Yeah. I would still very much like to get my first book in audio book form. Mm-hmm. . I don't know how I can do that. I mean, I don't know. Maybe that's my next project. Maybe it's just I. You know, me, me sitting with Audacity reading my first book and getting that into shape where it can be released as an audio book. I do know that there will be digital versions of this book released as well for the Nook and the Kindle  Yucca: and all that. It's available as an ebook then. Okay. Yes. So people don't have to get the physical book. They can just. That's right. Get it on whatever device they're more most comfortable with. Uhhuh. That's great.  Mark: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm pretty excited. Two months ago I was sick of it, , I was just, oh, I was so ready to be done with the writing, but I, I got another spurt behind me and And now it's done. So I'm pretty excited about that.  Yucca: Well, congratulations, mark.  Mark: That's amazing. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah. And I want to thank everybody who's encouraged me to write it too. You know, a lot of folks from the community have really urged me to write a followup that's more hands on. Mm-hmm. . And that's this book. So I'm, I'm excited about that.  Yucca: So, so the book is no book on the, no book on the immediate horizon. No. Fourth book. But what else? Cuz you're, you're a busy person.  Mark: What's, I have a job, which is kind of scary because when I do get a job and it is a, when it's not an if the Then I'm, I'm really gonna have to be very careful about my time management in order to juggle everything that I've taken on. And of course, you know, in the Atheopagan community we welcome volunteers to help with stuff. You know, the volunteers we have are wonderful people and they're really, really helping things. Sort of blossom in our, in our community. What we, what we're doing on the Ethiopia Pagan Society Council coming up in January cuz we meet quarterly, is we're going to do a strategic plan for the organization for the next three years or so. Years. Mm-hmm. . And I think that's really gonna focus down the priorities. I need to work on and what other people need to work on. In order to advance the goals that we set. Yeah. And I don't know what those goals will be yet. I imagine a lot of it will be about, you know, reinforcing various kinds of support for the existing community rather than a lot of focus on expansion. Mm-hmm. ,  Yucca: We've done a lot of expanding in the last few years. We really grown so  Mark: much. Yeah. Yes. And I wanna make sure that people have. The training, the classes, the materials, the resources, the the stuff Yeah. All that support. Yeah. That, that will help support them as they develop their practices. So, so that, that's my idea of a, of a main goal. But we'll talk about it in January and see what we all come up with. Yeah.  Yucca: Which is just, Just around the corner.  Mark: It it is. Yeah. I sent out an outline about how the strategic planning process works to the members of the council maybe 10 days ago. Mm-hmm. , something like that. Yeah. And hoping everybody gets a chance to take a look at that before we start in, so we don't have a five hour meeting. Yucca: Yeah. And so here on the podcast, we have a few more interviews coming up, and then we're right into the solstice season, so we'll have a lot right about that.  Mark: We're gonna have interviews with members of the a Pagan Society Council, sort of, they'll be interspersed amongst. Episodes. Mm-hmm. . Next week we're talking with Michael Hallon, which should be a great conversation. I'm really looking forward to that. There are other folks who are too busy until after the holidays, and so, you know, we'll be talking with them probably in January. Mm-hmm. . So, you know, stay tuned. We'll, we'll, we'll get around to, to most of the council members at one point or another. Just give it a wait. Yucca: Yeah. And of course, along with all of the seasonal and holiday and Yeah. Yeah. Dark and cold themes of the year and all of that Good stuff. So, Uhhuh.  Mark: Yeah, so the book is called Round We Dance. I always, I, I changed it. Early on, joyous living around the year and throughout life. So round we dance, joyous living around the year and throughout life. A book about spirituality and rituals by Mark Green. That's, that's what the book will be. Beautiful. . Yeah. I'm, I'm excited. It's I can't believe it's my third book. Yeah, that's  Yucca: just, that's in a very short period of time you've been. Right. Yeah,  it's  Mark: true. I started in on the first book in 2018. Mm-hmm. . So, yeah, not so long. I mean, the poetry book was easy to pull together cuz I'd already written all the poems. Nemea had already taken all of the photographs that we used to illustrate the book. Mm-hmm. . So it was basically just a matter of doing the layout and then the self-publish. But the other two have been quite a lot of work and yeah. Yeah, I'm, I'm looking forward to working with Luellen and seeing how that process goes. Yeah. So, shorter episode this week, folks. But thanks for listening and I hope that you're sufficiently interested to, to anticipate this book being released. And we'll be back next year with no, next year. We'll be back next week. It feels like .  Yucca: And it does . Yeah. , we'll be back next week. Yeah. To talk with you more. So thank you every. Thank you, mark.  Mark: Thank you.  

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com Death and dying workbook: https://atheopaganism.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/death-and-dying-workbook-blank1.docx Freewill.com   S3E35 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts, Mark, Yucca: And I'm the other one. Yucca Mark: and today we are going to talk about death. Yucca: death. Yep. It's, well, it's October. Although it's a topic which is relevant every day, every moment. Right. Mark: That's right. But particularly we're going to talk about the naturalistic, pagan perspective on death and approaches to death. And talk about some things that we can do to prepare for our own mortality and just about the perspective that it gives us generally. Because death is. Arguably the fact of our lives more than anything else. It's, it's the thing that's hanging out there, setting the context for everything else that we do or, or that we contemplate doing. Yucca: Right? And it happens to us. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: Right. There's no, Doesn't matter what religion you are, what gender, where you live, what kind of living thing. If you are living, then eventually you stop. Right? Mark: right. And that's why it's been called The Great Equalizer because it doesn't matter how wealthy you are, eventually you are going to kick it. And there's, you know, you can do all kinds of medical things to try to extend yourself probably with a great deal of suffering associated in most cases. But eventually it's going to end. And so at this time of year this is the time of year when pagans often contemplate their mortality and their their relationship with the fact of their death. And so we are dedicating this show this episode to to that, to talking about exactly that. We'll have other episodes later on in the month about sort of other facets. Yucca: Like ancestors and decomposition and you know, that kind of stuff. Mark: right. All those kinds of great, halloweeny wonderful topics. But this, this one is just about the blunt fact that we're gonna die and so are you. And we all have to come to terms with that in whatever manner we can. Yucca: Right now, I wanna emphasize though, that this isn't all a doom and gloom, you know, sad, negative kind of thing. Certainly many of us are quite uncomfortable with the idea that one day we will not exist, right? But as we're gonna talk about, there's actually. Some real upsides to that. Right. And there's some really, I think that there's a tremendous amount of, of beauty in that. But a good place to start actually is how naturalistic paganism differs from some of the other branches of Paganism when it comes to our views on death, or at least on what's after. Mark: Right, right. As naturalists, we use the scientific method and critical thinking to assess what is most likely to be true. And given, given that the evidence is that there is no afterlife, that when we stop, we stop our brains stop maintaining the, the neural net of information that constitutes our personality and memory and all those things. And that heat radiates away from our body that that energy radiates away from our body as heat Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and the body cools and we're gone. Yucca: And the, the pieces that were us, they break apart and become part of other things. Right. Mark: Right? And that's the decomposition story, which is. You know, stay tuned for that cuz it's actually so exciting. Yucca: a Mark: It's so exciting. Yucca: yeah, and it's, and that's the, that's the death that's happening always. Right. There's, there's the death at the end, right? Where like you just stop completely. But the, but the, the little, the little hundred deaths every day are more than hundreds. That just is part of being life is is this a really cool one to talk about? But yeah, we don't, we don't see the body as not us. Mark: Right. This is an important distinction. I'm, I'm glad you brought that up, because the idea of dualism what's sometimes called Cartesian dualism after Renee Decar, who first postulated it in a. In a philosophical kind of way, the idea that there is this spirit or ghost or soul within us that is separate from the body and that persists after the body dies. There really isn't any evidence to support that, that I'm aware of. And. Yucca: But the idea is, is embedded very, very deeply into our culture, into our language and it's, it's, it's all around us. Mark: It is. It is. It's, it's, When we talked about dualism in an earlier episode, we discovered that we don't even really have good language for talking about the understanding of the self as a unified hole. It is the body, You know, we say my body as if it was something different than, My mind. It's, it's all the same thing, but we, the, the way that our language is set up makes it very difficult even to articulate that concept. Yucca: Right Mark: So the body stops working for whatever reason. Maybe a disease, maybe an injury maybe just the accumulation of a a thousand tiny Yes. Or, or a thousand, just tiny errors in cellular copy copying over time. So you know, you're 105 years old and things just finally give up. They just stop and then we cease existing in our, in our opinion, in our estimation, we cease to exist. And that can be a very terrifying prospect for some people. But I don't find it that scary myself because I realized that for 13.7 billion years, I didn't exist either. And it didn't bother me in the least. I wasn't there to be bothered. It was okay. And we were talking about this before we recorded. We've also had some experiences where we've been put under general anesthesia. And that part disappears too. I mean, that's just time chopped out of your life where your body was still there, but your consciousness was suppressed because your body was, you know, under the influence of these chemicals that were introduced to it. And there wasn't any suffering during any of that either. I just was absent. Yucca: Not that I recall. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Yucca: And, and that's what, not what was described to me by those who were conscious at the time. Right. But yeah, that, at least for me, those are times that are just like, it's just gone. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Right. Look at the clock. And it's different than when it was when I last remembered looking at it. And that's not quite the same as as sleeping, because with the sleeping, there's a, sometimes there's a missing chunk there, but it's a very different, there still is some sort of awareness there, a very different awareness. But it, it's, it has felt like a very different experience. Mark: Yeah, I've often thought of, of during sleep the, the sort of dreaming process as being kind of like the brain running a screensaver. You know, you get all these images. You, you know, you have these sort of very, you know, strange and magical kinds of na narratives and stories and snips of scenes and things like that. And there's definitely something going on while you're sleeping most of the time. It's not the same as just winking out the way you do under general anesthetic. Yucca: Well, this is maybe a topic we should come back to at another point, because I don't think we've ever talked about lucid dreaming. Mark: Oh, we haven't. You're right. We Yucca: that's something that, that I do. And I don't know if that's something you do, but that would be a really, really interesting topic. So let's write that down. Mark: good. Yucca: maybe that's a good mid-winter topic that kind of, I associate, you know, mid-winter with the dreaming and the dark and, and all of that. So, Mark: a good one. Yucca: yeah. But with death it's, at least it seems like it's, that's it, right? Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Yucca: So what's that mean for us now? Right. We're not dead yet. We will. Mark: right, Yucca: this moment we're not. Mark: right. I would like to say one more thing Yucca: Oh, yeah. Mark: the, the way that other. Other religious traditions and particularly other pagan traditions, do approach the fact of death. Many of those are dualistic. In the Buddhist idea, for example, the idea is that we are on this wheel of karma that we're trying to get off of. And so when we achieve enlightenment, then we leave the wheel of karma and there's no more suffering and so forth. Which. So my mind has always been a very dark way of framing reality. It's the, you know, that the world is endless suffering. Well, the world is endless joy too. How, how come, How come we're paying all the attention to the suffering So that's, that's just been Yucca: does it, does it have the same connotation, the the word suffering when said in a Buddhist sense as it does. In a kind of conventional sense. Mark: That's a good question. I believe it does, but I can only speak from my experience having been married to a Zen Buddhist for 10 years. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: I, I can't, I, I have not done a ton of reading in the Buddhist arena and I don't know that much about. But I do know that it is once again, built on that dualistic idea that the body dies. But there is something else that persists that goes forward. And it may not be exactly you as a personality, but it's some intrinsic Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: quality of you that's in the process of being polished up in order to, you know, attain this, this enlightenment. Of course the, the mainstream monotheisms, they've all got. Sort of punishment or reward afterlife idea. And that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either for lots of reasons that we don't need to go into. But it's a pretty cruel framework in my opinion. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: You know, it's, it's extortionary and it, it threatens people and it terrifies little children. It's a, you know, telling children about people going to hell is a horrible. Yucca: Right. Mark: But in the pagan sphere, what we see very often is a more generalized idea of reincarnation. It's very codified in Buddhism where like, okay, you know, if you've done these particular things, maybe you'll come back as a cockroach. Yucca: There's particular, yeah, there's particular levels and yeah. Mark: right. In, in the Pagan sphere, it does not appear to be as well defined in that sense, but there is a broad a broad credulity in the idea that you do come back in some manner. I've been told by people that people that are in their family where once related to them in other ways, in a past life, those sorts of things I don't know where they get that information, but they believe it. So, you know, those are, those are other approaches to the fact of mortality that I feel really sort of skip the important bits of what mortality can give us. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Knowing that we're going to die is actually a tremendous gift Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: approach it that. It, it contextualizes our lives. You know, it's this thing that's hanging out there. We know we've got a limited amount of time, and that means that our time is very precious. We need to be careful with it. We need to make judicious decisions about what we're going to do with our time and what source of goals we're going to pursue. Yucca: Yeah. And really think about what matters. Really What, Because if I've, I have a limited number of days. You have a limited, We each have a limited number of days, Mark: Yes. Yucca: and on top of that, We don't know the number of days either. Mark: Right, Yucca: Right? We hope that there will be many, but this could be the last one, Mark: right, Yucca: or it could be in thousands, right? Mark: right. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Yeah. And knowing that, knowing that they're wheeled on a day when you're not in it really does give it, It gives you pause, it gives you it, it gives you an opportunity anyway, to think very carefully about what matters to you. About what your values are, about what you would like to be left behind in the wake of your life, in the way of legacy. And of course, that's one of the Ethiopia Pagan principles, right? Legacy. The idea that we are responsible to subsequent generations, not only of humans, but of the fabric of life on earth in general. And so. I mean, I very deliberately have made my career around environmentally and publicly beneficial work. That's, that is the, the work that I've chosen. And there have been costs associated with that. A lot of them financial because working in the nonprofit sector, especially for smaller organizations, just doesn't pay as well as a lot of other things. I have never been able to get my mind around doing some of the things that some people do for money, knowing that all that, that's all that's going on. There's just money making happening there. And I, I can't apply my time to something that seems so meaningless to me. I, I. I need to do something that's more substantial and fulfilling than that with my time. And I'm not criticizing anybody else's decisions. You know, they're, they're, well, you know, they're sovereign beings. They get to make their own decisions about what they consider important to do in their life. But for my life the, the environmental work that I've done, the, the social services work that I've done and the spiritual community work that I've done are all really important pieces to me that I hope have persisting impact after I'm gone. Yucca: Right. Yeah. And of course there's sometimes things that we need to do that we would really rather not be spending our time doing, but that That that are things that have to, that have to happen, whether that's dealing with, you know, illnesses or taxes or just, you know, having enough to, to be able to, to feed your family or things like that. But I think that, that the recognition and the, the memory that the, of our death that's coming can help us to. Put all of that in context, right? And think about how we're going to choose to live as we do those things that we don't want to be doing. Right. So we can on, on the big scale, really work towards the things that, that are meaningful to us. But know that every moment, even the moment when you are, you know, scrubbing the toilet, that that's, that's one of your moments, right? Mark: Right. Yucca: And how are you gonna live that, So, Mark: So finding ways to be joyful and finding ways. To take deep satisfaction in living becomes in the context of a, of a life without an afterlife, it becomes essential, Yucca: mm-hmm. Mark: right? This is all that we've got. So we must then find ways to, to derive happiness out of it, to derive as much joy as we possibly. In a, in a conscientious way. Obviously not at the expense of others. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Which honestly, I have a hard time imagining how you can have much joy if it's at the expense of others, but Yucca: Right. Mark: maybe, maybe someone can. Yucca: Well, if you are aware of it, Mark: Right, Yucca: right, as long as there's that awareness piece, Mark: right. That's like the the Ursula Ursula Gwen story. The people who leave Oma. Yucca: I'm not Mark: you know that Yucca: that one. Mark: It's a, it's a utopia. Oma is a city and everyone is happy, and everything is beautiful, and it's all magnificent except once a year, every citizen, they're all paraded through this dungeon under the city where there is a poor, neglected, starving child. Yucca: Mm. Mark: Whose suffering is necessary in order for all the happiness above the surface to happen. And there are a certain number of people every year who leave the city. They go because they won't make that deal. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So I like to think that I would be one of those. Yucca: Dr. Hub borrowed that concept for one of their episodes. There was a space whale. Mark: Hmm. Yucca: City of London, I think was based on that, was suffering. So that, so the, the plot there sounds pretty much the, the same, Mark: hmm. Yucca: one of the new ones, not one of the old ones, Mark: Okay. Yeah. Okay. That was your tangent for this week, folks. Yucca: Well, at least number one, we'll see. I don't know, that's all. Maybe we've sort of done a few already. We went into dreams, so, Mark: that's true. Yucca: Yeah. Okay. Mark: okay, we're, we're gonna die and we're going to live well as a result of this knowledge. That's, that's where we've gotten to so far. But there are some things that we can do to prepare for our deaths that are great. Kindness is to those who survive us. Yucca: Mm-hmm. and for us in the process, depending on what kind of death you have, , Right. Some deaths. You don't know that they're happening and some you do. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: So, yeah. Mark: So those include things like advanced health directives, instructing decision makers about how they. What your wishes are in terms of do you want to be kept alive on machines in a vegetative state? Do you not want that? If it's unlikely that you will ever recover to a point where you're able to care for yourself? Do you want the machines to be turned off? All those kinds of questions. Knowing that medicine is a for profit enterprise and that end of life is the most profitable part of that enterprise in the United States. They will keep you alive on machines if you don't tell them not to. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And it's important to do that if that's not the way you want to go. Yucca: Right? Mark: There are other financial things a will or a trust or you know, some sort of arrangement for what's supposed to happen to your money and your stuff. Yucca: Mm-hmm. And your dependence, if you have. Mark: Yes. Including, you know, what goes to which dependence and, and all that kind of, and, and your dependence. If, if you, if both you and your partner or partners Yucca: If you have, if you Mark: are suddenly killed if you, if you have them. Are suddenly killed, then the question of where your dependence go becomes really important. And that needs to be written down and enshrined somewhere, not just something in your head. Yucca: And this may not just be your human dependence, but if you don't have children and you have pets, that's something to think about as well, so that they, they don't just end up at the shelter. Right? Mark: right. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: There are other Sorts of things that are very helpful for people when there is a death that can just ease the process a lot. I mean, all of us that have been in grief know the kind of brain fog that descends when there is a painful death. It's hard to concentrate and feelings keep welling up all the time and to be asked at the same time to go digging through someone's desk to find a life insurance policy is, It's an almost insurmountable demand Yucca: Right, And to be on the phone and being told that, No, we can't give it to you because you're not the person and you're going, Yeah, but they're dead. But you know, all. Mark: And then you have to go and get a death certificate and provide that to them. And I mean, there's just so much adminis trivia that goes into the processing of a death. having all of that information together in one place in what I call a death packet Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: is a tremendous gift to those who survive you. Passwords, passwords to social media accounts, to your online banking to your, your 401k or whatever, you know, retirement accounts you might have. All of that stuff is essential in modern times to be able to do the things that you want to do. A list of people who should be notified with their contact information. Yucca: right. Mark: There's, there's a lot of different things that go into this. But the good news is we have a workbook Yucca: Yes. Link in the in the show notes. Yeah. Mark: Yes, you can download a blank of the workbook and fill it out. And it, it has everything in it. It's got a, a section for filling out all the information that would be necessary to write an obituary, for example. You can make your preferences known about what you'd like done with your body. What kind of services, if any, you would like to have happen. To recognize your death. And it, it may sound scary and creepy to do this, but as I always like to say, just like talking with people about sex doesn't make them pregnant, working on the fact of your mortality doesn't make it any more likely to happen soon. Yucca: Yeah. It just means that when it does, it's gonna be an easier process for the, For your loved ones. Yeah. And this is, this is a great time of year to be going through and doing this because we're thinking about death. And it's seasonally and we're seeing it around us, and and it's nice to, to have it on the calendar to be able to go back and review that, right? Mark: Yeah. One of the elements of my death packet is a farewell letter, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and I revisit that every year at this time of year just to make sure that, you know, everybody that I want acknowledged, want to be acknowledged is acknowledged. And that Yucca: If things have changed in terms of what you wanna say or not. Mark: all, all those kinds of things. Yes. So it's. And it, it's a great opportunity just to pull the thing out and review all the information. It's like I noticed the last time I went through it, I had moved and I hadn't changed my address. Yucca: Mmm. Mark: So that was necessary. I had to make those changes. Once again I can already think of some things that I'm gonna need to change for this year as well. Yucca: Right. Mark: so, but once you've done the big task once. Then it's just a matter of updating little bits of information here and there as you go along, and it's not very hard to do. The important thing is that loved ones know where to find your death packet. If you have like, a filing cabinet with legal papers and Yucca: fire safe chest that you have and you Mark: That's, that's a good place for it to live, maybe in especially colored folder so that people know, you know, they can go directly to that folder and pull it out. What I do is I keep a paper copy, a printed copy in my desk, and then I keep the soft copy, The Microsoft Word file on the desktop of my computer. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: So it, and it's labeled My Death, that's the name of it. So, with a cute little skull icon that I put on Yucca: Yeah, is your paper one you could put in a little folder, you know, this time of year you can find like the Halloween themed folders and stuff in the school section. Mark: Uhhuh. Yeah. It's a good idea. Yucca: little dancing skeletons or something like Mark: Mm-hmm. , I like it. Yeah, so. I strongly encourage our listeners to, to take on this work. It's it can be a little intimidating you know, to sort of take a deep breath and go, Okay, I'm gonna die. What do I want done with my body? What do I, you know, what? Yucca: Yeah. Mark: What, what, what are the answers to all these questions? There is a tool that's available for download online. It's something called the Five Questions that you can look for and that, that walks you through some similar kinds of planning questions about how to organize your, your death planning. But the workbook that you can download from the link in the show notes is really very thorough and it, it contains spaces for all of the different kinds of information that you're likely to need. Yucca: Right, and, and you could make a little thing of it when you do it. You could make it a little. Self party for the afternoon, right? Pick out, get your favorite drink, get your favorite treat, and carve yourself a pumpkin and sit down at the table with it. And there might be things that you won't be able to do right away, like gathering certain pieces of information, but you could start working through it and starting that process. Or you could do some of it in ritual, you know, make it. Make it an enjoyable thing that is maybe a little bit less intimidating to approach just so that you, that you do it. Because any piece that you do will be better than having not done it at all. Mark: right. Yucca: Right. And so maybe, I mean, I encourage everyone to, to go through the whole packet and do everything, but maybe you just wanna start with, Okay, I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna get a will in place. Right. And I'm not, you know, I, I don't have the, the mental space right now to write a letter to everybody, but I can get the, the will in place, or I can make sure that I have beneficiaries on my bank accounts or whatever it is that you need to do. Right. Just starting with so, Mark: I want to tell people about another resource that's available online for free, and it's a, it's a resource called free will.com, and literally that's what it is. It's a wizard that walks you through the steps to create a will for free, and then you can download the. Documents and print them and have them signed and it's legally valid Will Yucca: Do you put in what your state or country is in Mark: you do? Yucca: laws are different about how many witnesses you need or that sort of thing? Okay. Mark: It's only for the US and Canada, unfortunately. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: But. Yucca: I would suspect there's probably similar resources though for different countries. Mark: many other countries. I would agree. I would agree. But it's a, it's a pretty nifty little thing. I, I went through it and I thought, you know what, what came out the other end was, it had a lot of legalese in it, but it definitely included everything that I wanted to, to be included in my will. Yucca: Mm-hmm. , right? So that's a great, a great place to start.  Mark: They also do advanced health directives. There's, there's a wizard for that as well. Yucca: Okay. Right, Because again, many of us probably aren't at the traditional places in our lives where that's something that we would be starting to think about. But as we've said, we don't know. We don't know how many days we have, Mark: Nope. Nope. The odds, the odds may be low that you are going to die soon. But they aren't zero. They're never zero. Yucca: Right. Mark: As long as we're alive, we are subject to death. So we have to be prepared to as great a degree as possible, both for our loved ones but also for ourselves. I don't want to be in a semi-conscious state on a ventilator Yucca: Mm. Mark: for. Days, weeks, years. I, I, I really, really am opposed to that. There's pretty good evidence that there is some brain activity in a lot of the people that are in that condition, and that just sounds like hell to me. I don't want it. And I'm very, very clear in my directives that I do not want that. I, I want you to pull the plug, if that's the state that I. Yucca: Right. or for me, I wouldn't want to be in my last moments worrying who's gonna take care of my kids. Mark: Right, Yucca: Right? Mark: right. Yucca: Oh, how, you know, being, having to be stressed about these things that I don't wanna leave undone Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: for, for others. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. So I, I'd kind of like to leave this on a, on an upward note. I feel like one of the things that is very hard about death in, certainly in American culture, but I think this is true in the West generally, is that we're so phobic about the subject that we don't talk about it and get ourselves comfortable with it at all. We don't even try to do. And there is a movement the, the so-called death positivity movement that is happening now that's working to overcome that, that's working. You know, we conduct death salons in various places for people to talk about their feelings, about their mortality, their fears, their their concerns, what they'd like done with their bodies, all those kinds of things. And. I just feel that that's a very important movement. To some degree the denial of death is the denial of life Yucca: Yeah, and that's one we'll definitely come back on when we talk about death on a kind of larger concept. Mark: Right, right. And to me, embracing what this is that we are. Here on Earth is necessary in order for us to honor it, as sacred as it is. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And so I really encourage you to look at this as a great opportunity. You know, when you, when you really sit down, you know, across the table from your death maybe, maybe you have some life priorities that you want to change. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Maybe, maybe there are certain things that you absolutely have have been dedicated to the idea that you're going to do someday, and maybe you need to move up the schedule on those to make sure that they happen, Yucca: Right. Mark: right? Um Yucca: Well, and to think about how you are living today, because how you live today is how you, that is your life, Mark: mm-hmm. Yucca: right? That is your life that you live. And I find it very helpful In my morning ritual, I remind myself, I say out loud that I remember I will die, and that actually is so uplifting and motivating because it goes today matters. This, my experience, this tiny, I get to be this tiny sliver of the universe for this short period, which I hope will be in the triple digits. That's my goal, but that's still tiny compared to the billions of billions of years of the universe. And here we are and we get this moment. And because we die, it is so precious and so special every. Mark: Absolutely. I like that I may steal it. I, my morning ritual does not include something like that at the moment, although it does include a death acknowledgement in the evening. The Yucca: I stole it from the stoic . They have a whole thing about it. Mark: So yeah, look at, honestly, look at this as an opportunity. Folks. Being in denial about our death isn't gonna stave it off. It isn't gonna change when it happens. One second. So, taking a clear look at, taking a clear look at everything generally is a good idea, but particularly Yucca: of this podcast, Mark: it kind of is. Yeah. It kind of is. Let's, you know, let's, let's not gussy things up with, with fantasy. Let's, let's do what we can to know what's true. To look at that very clearly and then make our decisions based on that. That's kind of what we're about. So, especially in this month of October, which is, you know, the, the, the spooky witchy month really encourage you to take that step if you haven't already, or also like to congratulate those of you who have done a lot of that planning. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Good for you because it's, it's generally good for all of us. When people do that, among other things, what tends not to happen is that people tend not to get gouged for thousands of dollars by funeral homes because, you know, people will put much more modest wishes in their, in their declarations, in their death packet. and that's good for all of us because that industry really needs to be reigned in. It's very destructive and it, it, it needs to change. Yucca: Well, and, and whatever your particular wishes are you. You can assure those, or at least you can make it more likely that that's what's going to happen, right? By, by voicing it. So whatever, whatever your particular desires and approaches and, and all of that and if it's something that, that you honestly don't care, let let your loved ones know that, right? Let them know, I seriously, I'm dead. I don't want the casket. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: I don't care. Save the money. Right? If that's your approach or if, hey, it is actually really important to me that there be this coming together of the, of the people in my life and this moment. And you know, you know, you can say that and you can think about that and, and I think that you can learn a lot about yourself too in having that honest conversation with yourself, that exploration. Mark: right. As you explore what the options are, you may find that some things that people assume are true are not. For example, you are not required to have your body involved. And it's a terrible, toxic thing that we do to the Earth that I really don't want any part of. But I mean, you can, if you want to, that's fine, but you are not required. Some states require that an un embalmed body be buried within three days after the death, Yucca: Yeah, there's so different states are gonna have different regulations you're gonna wanna know. Yeah. But that's one of the things that you can do in your October. Death visiting. I don't know what we could call it.  Mark: I like that. Yucca: yeah, and if you mo, if you move states or, you know, you just check up on, okay, so what's, you know, what is it like here in Montana versus Connecticut, or, you know, whatever it is. Yeah. Mark: right? Yeah. So there's a, there's a body of knowledge and there's kind of a world to explore there of how to, how to get exactly what you want out of this, or at least to tell your loved ones what you want. And of course after you're dead, it won't matter to you. So Yucca: Yeah. Mark: they, if they don't do what you want Yucca: You won't know. Mark: you won't know, and the worst thing that will happen is that somebody will probably say, This is not what they would've wanted. Yucca: Yeah, so well, this has been good. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: it's inspiring to, to come back to this each year and think about it and, and just again, remembering this is our little sliver. This is our little moment. Mark: Right. So do what you can to have a good death and as smoother transition as possible for those around you who survive and and live well. Live well and happily. Yucca: Yep. All right. Well thank you everyone, and we'll, we'll see you next week. Mark: See you then.  

In this episode of ALPS in Brief, Mark sits down with Megan Hottman, the Cyclist Lawyer. At the age of 29, she did what people told her was not possible — she hung her own shingle and formed Hottman Law Office (HLO), aka "TheCyclist-Lawyer.com." This practice, she says, "is the perfect combination of passion and profession — love of cycling and legal education culminated in this practice; I'm doing what I was meant to do." Hear how Megan blazed her own trail, what's next, and how to know when to say "hell yes." Transcript: MARK BASSINGTHWAIGHTE: Hello, I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the Risk Manager here at ALPS, and welcome to the latest episode of ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence Building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. For those of you that have listened to my various stories and podcasts over the years, I had a short series called, Listening to Your Life. And that was telling some stories about cycling. I've done a fair amount of cycling over the years and it's a way I stay in shape and so enjoyed it, particularly in 2020 when we had the shutdown. And boy, that's how I dealt with cycling, or the shutdown, just getting out and putting on a lot of miles. That summer I put in, I think it was over 2,200 miles. So that was quite a summer. I also have an interest in niche practices. Years ago, I spent many, many years doing some consulting work and have worked with over 1200 firms all over the country. And one of my favorite practices was a niche practice of guy up in Alaska that specialized in dog sled law. And I actually pulled up to the firm in the summertime and there was maybe two parking spaces, but there are about 15 spaces for dog sled teams. It was just an interesting, interesting story, or I should say, interesting experience. So all of that kind of plays into my guest and conversation we're going to have today. I'm so pleased to be able to welcome Megan Hottman. She is an attorney in Colorado, but I really want you folks to have the opportunity to hear and enjoy listening to Megan. So Megan, please welcome to the podcast and if you want to take a couple of moments and just share anything and everything about yourself. What do people need to know? MEGAN HOTTMAN: Well, thank you for having me. What do the people need to know? Well, everyone wants to know how I became The Cyclist Lawyer. And the truth is that I was a cyclist and a lawyer and I became someone who wanted to represent cyclists in my law practice. So that unfolded really just a confluence of events, you might say. I was a baby lawyer, kind of fresh out of law school and I was also an aspiring bike racer chasing the professional bike racing dream. And I wasn't sure how to put the two together because both are very time demanding and energy demanding. And long story short, people that I raced bikes with and against at events knew I was an attorney but had no idea what area of law I practiced in. But a few of them would ask me at events, "Hey, I was hit by a car while I was training. I have no idea what kind of law you do, but is that something you could help me with?" And I realized that working for people that shared this passion of mine for two wheels, life on two wheels, was very compelling and interesting to me and helping them try to get back in the saddle after having been involved in a collision with motorists. That really is how the practice unfolded back in 2010. And I was scared to death, of course, to start my own practice. I was 29, I'd been out of law school for five years and people said, "Well, you can't start a practice of your own that soon. That's not how this works." And I just felt that to do it the way I wanted to do it and to simultaneously be able to chase my bike racing dreams, I really couldn't work for someone else and be on someone else's schedule, I needed to be on my own schedule. So that's how this whole adventure began. And here we are, 12 and a half years later. MARK: That's really interesting because again, I was referring to this dog sled lawyer and a fascinating guy, but it was the same kind of thing. He was a racer, passion, enjoyed it. And other people, he got to know that the circuits and well, I have this problem or that problem in racing. And it's just this kind of organic evolution. And I love that. Folks, this is obviously an audio podcast here and I've had the pleasure of meeting Megan in Missoula at a corporate event earlier this year, but I am so struck by the joy and the passion that you see in her face when she talks about what has happened and her life. And why I think that's important, I like that you were taking risks and really wanted to go this way. But when I hear your story and interact, I'm trying to remember the name of that, there's a Disney movie where a guy goes out and plays baseball. It's a true story, Disney eyes, but he's a high school coach down in Texas and he ends up trying out for the majors and makes it. But as he's in the minors working up to the majors, he just talks about, "I can't believe. Guess what I get to do today? I get to play baseball." And I see that in you. It seems to me you very much enjoy what you're doing and have found. The one thing I want to say folks is Megan took some risks, but they were so calculated and good risks to take because of the interest and the passion. And I just want you to hear, because I believe niche practices can be very, very successful. Not only financially, but in terms of the lifestyle, the wellness. Would you tend to agree with that, Megan? MEGAN: Yeah. I don't even know so much that it's a niche practice conclusion so much as it is doing something that really lights you up more than just the billable hour or the money in the bank. And that's true for everyone, whether they're an attorney or someone else. And even if your job doesn't light you up, having hobbies outside of your job that light you up. I think it's critical more than ever now these days, more than ever. And I'm a big fan of Dan Buettner's work, the Blue Zones, and he talks about what some of the common factors are among people that live to the age of 100 and are in good health. And one of the big ones, in addition to healthy diet, daily movement, a community of people that you are close to, is having a sense of purpose. And so we can all go to work and punch a paycheck, a pay clock, and work our nine to five or whatever, and that's important. Sure, we need to pay for our homes and our meals and support our families. MARK: Absolutely. MEGAN: And I felt the calling to it needed to be more than that for me to be successful. In this profession, it needed to be really compelling and important to me. And in addition to serving these cyclists all these years it, I think, understandably grew into a desire to make cycling safer and really within a couple years getting that clarity that my ultimate goal is to put myself out of business. And if we've made cycling so safe that cyclists aren't hit anymore and don't need lawyers like me, that would be the biggest win and the biggest victory ever. MARK: Yes. MEGAN: And like you, a lot of people came to the bike or came back to the bike during COVID. We really saw this massive bike boom. Actually worked part-time at a bike shop in 2020 just to help one of our local shops out. And the lines of customers were around the block on both sides of the building. MARK: Wow. MEGAN: Couldn't believe it. MARK: Yeah. MEGAN: And we had hoped that COVID was going to be the rebirth of cycling for the US and a re-appreciation for how it can be not just a tool for fitness and recreation, but for transportation. And it gave us a lot of hope. And instead, we've unfortunately seen a real change in motorist behavior and everyone is sensing it. There's just an increase of rage and frenzy and anxiety. People are driving fast and reckless and maliciously and we've actually seen a huge uptick really since 2021 in this area, unfortunately. MARK: Yeah, that's sad. It doesn't surprise me. My wife and I were in Montana for many, many years and just within the past year we've moved down to central Florida and I still try to ride and I get out, but I will tell you... And I've talked to, we found a physician down here, a really nice guy, and he bikes a little bit, saying, "This is a very, very dangerous area to bike," and for this very reason. The drivers are just crazy. And I see some folks out going, "They need to take a course from Megan because this is not where you want to ride." Just, oh my gosh. Well that's, talk a little more about the evolution of your practice. MEGAN: Yeah. MARK: You have these two passions and there's this organic kind of start. How did you though really finesse that to move from, this is an idea, this is a passion? And I think I know the answer based on some of the things you've just been sharing. But it's one thing to have people say, "Can you help out a little bit and do all that?" and turn that in to a full-time practice where you can pay the bills and where you can... I assume you have some staff or others that you work with. Are you solo? MEGAN: Yep. Nope, I did have a team. I'm in the process of scaling down, but we did have a team. I was the only attorney, but support staff. Yes. MARK: Okay, so how do you get there? MEGAN: Well, whether you're in a niche practice or a niche profession or not, one thing I quickly realized was you still want to be really intentional about who you're serving. And early on in our startup, as anyone is in startup mode of any business, you take whatever comes in the door and you're just thrilled that people want to hire you. And so you're a bit of a basket case, you're responding to everything and it's, "Oh, you want me to jump? How high?" kind of mentality. And that's fine for the first couple years. It's not sustainable, but that's part of any startup. And then at least for me, I started to get some clarity on, okay, yes, I want to represent cyclists. But within that group of people there's a subset, there's a specific type of case or a specific type of client that we really want to represent. For example, I don't find certain types of bike injury cases compelling because I'm so focused on changing motorist behavior that I tend to be less interested, let's say in a cyclist on cyclist collision, on a bike path. That can still be very bad and still someone's at fault, but that is less interesting to me because I'm really more concerned with how do we change the motoring public's perception of cycling. Or if someone rides their bike into wet concrete in a construction zone for example. There's definitely a claim there and someone probably made a mistake. I don't find that interesting because again, I started to get clear on what are the bigger changes and impacts I wanted to have. And even drilling down within that subset and saying, is there an opportunity here to mobilize the media for the greater good? Does this case lend itself to us going to the legislature and asking for some new laws on this particular topic or in this type of instance? Does this lend itself to us leveraging state or city financial resources to put in new infrastructure to prevent this type of thing happening again? And so just getting really clear on, yes, this particular client certainly deserves their compensation for this horrible thing that has happened to them, but can we make the impact broader than just that client? And then all along the way, sort of taking stock of, okay, have I let myself now get so spun up and so caught up in the business frenzy that I'm no longer living the life that I want to live myself. And that's easy to do too. I don't care how passionate you are about the subject matter, you can take the entrepreneurial mindset and you can let it get totally out of hand and then it can consume you. And suddenly, you wake up and you say, "Whose life is this that I'm living?" I'm making more money than I ever thought I'd make. I've reached all my goals. This is exciting and amazing and oh my goodness, this is so exhilarating, and yet I'm not riding my bike suddenly. Or my health isn't good, my sleep is breaking down, I'm not managing my own stress very well. What's going on here? So I think it's important to ask those questions too. MARK: And I agree. Wellness is a big issue for me in terms of what I do and what I've seen. So many people, attorneys and non attorneys alike, when we talk about malpractice, they want to know, "What are the big mistakes?" And those are important things to look at, but it's not the right question. I'm more interested in why the mistakes occur. And that gets into wellness. There are so much of the malpractice and even the disciplinary issues that are out there have some, more often than not, have some impairment component. MEGAN: Yes. MARK: Whether it's dementia, stress, burnout, addictions, all kinds of things. That's why the clients might have got neglected. I struggle with depression and on and on, and all these different things. So how did you balance all that? Were there things, as you start to ask yourselves these questions, am I still living the dream or is this getting a little cloudy? MEGAN: Great question. MARK: What did you do? What was your response? MEGAN: There's a couple prongs that I'd like to respond to in that. One is I noticed I was drinking too much. Nothing that affected my work, thankfully, but more than I wanted to be drinking myself. It certainly was affecting my ability to perform as an athlete. Even if you just go to social events and you have a couple glasses of wine, it totally makes your sleep garbage. And then you're just a dull down version of yourself the next day. So just noticing that I was less sharp than I wanted to be, I was less of an athlete than I wanted to be. I just really realized, my goodness, I am diminishing my own capacity with this thing that is such a central pillar of this profession. Between lawyers and entrepreneurs, everything is alcohol centric it seems. And just decided I wasn't going to engage in that kryptonite for myself anymore because I live a pretty clean, healthy life otherwise. And especially with my focus on getting good sleep, which I do believe is the foundation for a good human existence and experience, here I am undermining even my own sleep with this socialization around alcohol. So I quit drinking in the end of 2017, very much on purpose with those things in mind. And no surprise, 2018 was an exceptional year business wise, bottom line sword, I rode 10,000 miles on my bike that year. MARK: Wow. MEGAN: I competed in numerous big bike events, a lot of them on a single speed, 150, 200 mile gravel bike events. And everything went exceptionally well that year. And I thought, wow, this is what it's like when I'm actually firing on all cylinders. This is really great. And I still don't drink. And I preach the sort of alcohol free life. Not in a sense that I think alcohol is bad per se, or I'm not trying to be the fun police, I just do think it's important for us to call into question why we are so socially accepting of something that is so damaging. And in this particular profession, that 2016 Betty Ford study, that's been many years now already, that's six years old, one in three lawyers is a problem drinker. That is terrifying. And yet, when I am at legal events, I have to tell you, I conclude the same thing in my observations. MARK: I absolutely agree. Yeah, it's been my experience too in a lot of the things, you get involved around the country, the annual conventions, bar conventions and whatnot, you bet. MEGAN: You see it. So on that note, really where your question I think was going was how do you stay in alignment? MARK: Right. MEGAN: And for me, I personally, I'm not a psychologist, I am not a substance abuse professional or expert, but I personally believe that the reason our substance abuse is so high in this profession is because there's a lot of things that we are not acknowledging and addressing as lawyers and as a profession that inherently drives people to numb out because it is so overwhelming and it is so hard to face. One thing I've really become keen on observing and noticing and learning more about is secondary trauma because I work in the personal injury space. We observe people's trauma in these horrific situations. We don't just cut them on the emergency table, stitch them up, and then go on to the next patient. We live with these clients and their stories for years and we have to convey it effectively as a storyteller at trial. And so we take on, whether we mean to or not, a lot of that trauma ourselves, vicarious trauma, secondary trauma. And no one's teaching us this and no one's even telling us, here are the warning signs that you're getting too much of that in your life, in your practice. So it does not surprise me that a lot of lawyers turn to substance to try and just numb out for a little bit. And I'll finish this thought by just by saying I pride myself as being someone who doesn't really numb out, especially once I quit drinking. It was like I'd rather confront stuff head on and say, "What's really going on here?" And as my practice unfolded into year seven, year eight, a lot of that trauma started to catch up with me. A couple cyclists that I knew very well were hit and killed, and I'm involved in their cases. And then that became really overwhelming. And I thought, "What's wrong with me? Why are other lawyers seemingly managing this far better than I am?" And it really started to knock me down pretty hard core. I was planning to take sabbatical at the beginning of 2020, but that's right when COVID started. It was supposed to be March of 2020. And I knew that I needed to punch out for a little bit because I could tell that things weren't okay. That was before I knew about secondary trauma. And what I've come to realize since, because I was hit by a car this June 5th and very badly injured, was in a wheelchair and relegated to a walker, there were no walks, there were no bike rides, there were no yoga classes, there was no van adventuring, all the things that I really love to do that light me up worked, it's full stop. And I realized in part that those things are a bit of a numbing behavior for me. That is kind of how I escape the stresses of this work. And so when you strip all those numbing agents away and you really are forced to confront the discomfort. What I've concluded is most of us will go to great lengths to avoid that. It's very uncomfortable. We will look to anything else, whether it's shopping or what have you, as a distraction. And so my advice for lawyers would be to start honoring those nudges because there is something in us that knows when something's not right. And if you're tempted to say, "Oh my God, I really need some wine, I've had a horrible day," or "I can't wait to take the edge off" or what have you, you can still go do that if you feel called to that. But first, ask the question why, what's going on inside me that's got me stolen knots, and pay attention to that. MARK: Yeah, yeah. Well said. And I absolutely agree. You had talked too a bit about getting involved in education and trying to do some things to change laws. And I believe there's been some charity work you've been involved at too. Was that intentional, in terms of even if just an organic involvement? I'm not sure else to describe it, but it was that part of the growth of the practice process? Was that part of just a desire to give back? Was that part of trying to keep things, and I really don't like the word balance, but to try to maintain sense of purpose and well-being? How did all that come about? MEGAN: Sure. Early on, when I started my practice and started to realize some success, it's incredibly exhilarating to make great money. We're not going to candy coat that. That's why we went to law school, most of us. We'd like to live the lawyer lifestyle. And when you start cashing in on big cases, that's incredibly exhilarating and affirming and it's quite a rush. And for me, that was really great for a few years of just saying, "Wow, this is cool." This has this capacity and I got really involved in real estate and I'm super passionate about real estate stuff. That didn't last very long for me. Yes, you still need to earn money and pay the bills for sure. But then I started to say, well I've now had 20 or 30 or 40 clients hit in bike lanes. What the hell's the point of having a bike lane if we're not going to offer any legal protection for people in bike lanes as one example. And that really climaxed when I got hit myself in a bike lane in 2019 and I thought, well we've gone to all the trouble to put this on the road and paint the lane and paint it white. And yet, I still got hit here in broad daylight. We need some legal protection. So that prompted myself to partner with one of our legislators to write a bike lane bill here in Colorado, which says that motorists must yield to cyclists in bike lanes. So duh, but the law didn't exist before that. Similarly, with some of my other clients, just starting to observe, we're not being treated fairly by the district attorneys. There's no real prosecution happening of these drivers. No one's losing a driver's license, no one's getting any real punishment, there's no lesson being learned. These drivers aren't suffering whatsoever for the carnage that they're leaving in their wake. And so started getting more and more involved in the criminal and the traffic cases of my clients, even though that's not part of my civil representation, that I'm not being paid for that part. But as far as the greater good, if there's no prosecution of drivers who harm cyclists, what are we doing here? For me to just move money from insurance companies into client's pockets, yes, that's part of the process, but it needed to be more than that for me. So started to get involved in educating law enforcement, teaching them what the rules say. Whether they agree with it or not, this is what our legislature has decided. And taking that into teaching bike shops and bike teams what their obligations are so that we can be following the laws as cyclists, talk to several driving schools to teach driving instructors what the laws require as they're teaching our youth how to drive, trying to approach it from all angles of let's make safer cyclists, let's make safer motorists, let's make safer roads. And the truth is that there's advocacy organizations whose entire purpose in all day, every day is focused on lobbying and getting money for the infrastructure in our cities. And so that's the lane that they swim in. I don't need to be in that lane. That's what they do. So I decided to focus on the legal side of things and either writing the laws or dealing with the punishment in the criminal cases because that's of course more uniquely suited to my skillset. MARK: Well, as a guy out there on the road at times and enjoying as a fellow cyclist, nowhere near your level, but there's just something about riding. MEGAN: Amen. MARK: It's a quiet place. And when you're out, really just riding. Around here, I'm still learning and I'm going to have to get a bike rack till some other trails get built. What's coming is going to be awesome, but we're a few years away yet. MEGAN: Gotcha. MARK: But also thank you for the work that you do. I've always said to even our kids, we can't necessarily change the world, but boy, we can do something in our little corner of it. And if enough of us work on our little corner of it, we can accomplish some great things at a larger level. MEGAN: That's exactly right. MARK: So that's awesome. Well, you had talked a little bit about slowing down a bit. May I ask, what's next? Where are you going? MEGAN: Yeah, great question. I remain open to what the universe directs me towards. It's really cool how just being open, it does open doors to things. I think it's really fun too to just say, why not be curious? Rather than immediately disregard things that seem impractical, why not just see what comes in and what I can call in for myself. I just got off the phone a few minutes ago with a lawyer out on the East Coast that wants to hire me as a bike expert in his case. And I love doing that work, helping other lawyers improve their case for the cyclists that they represent. And adding my unique expertise as an expert for them has been great. So I'm doing some of that work. And I'm also coaching other lawyers, specifically those who have formed their own firms, to really help them try to get clarity on what their ideal life and how they want this to look and how they want this firm to serve them in the hopes that I can help them avoid some of the pitfalls that I've mentioned for myself, where we get so spun up in it, we kind of forget why we started. So I'm coaching a handful of lawyers and I really enjoy that. And as you mentioned, I got to speak at the event for you guys in July. I really enjoy doing keynote speaking and those things seem to pop up once or twice a quarter and that's really fun. I do still have my current caseload that I am still in the process of finishing up, and whether I fully withdraw or retreat or not is not clear to me just yet. But I have felt really called here in the front range of Colorado, just the summer specifically, to take on a few cases pro bono, some really heinous hit and run cases. MARK: Oh my gosh. MEGAN: Two very serious injury cases and one a death case where we have drivers hitting cyclists and leaving the scene, which is just so appalling. I can't even conceive of that. And unfortunately, does often involve impairment of these drivers. So they're not in their right minds, but that's not an excuse. So trying to help those families through the process has been really rewarding for me as I've been recovering from my own collision. MARK: And is cycling still in your future? You're going to come back and get back on the bike and keep going? MEGAN: Absolutely. Yeah. You probably have to cut my bikes up into little tiny pieces to keep me off of them. One of my favorite things in life is to bike commute. I've really designed a life for myself here in Golden, which is a little subset of Denver. It's a little kind of small town feel, home of Coors and the School of Mines. It's a great place to live if you want to ride your bike everywhere. And so I really, within a 10 mile radius, can do basically everything that I need to do in my life. And that's been one of the things I've missed the most from this collision and these injuries. And I don't know what that looks like going forward because commuting does involve quite a bit of being on the road. I've grown to just love my e-bike for commuting. My car sits in the garage. Like you mentioned, being on the bike is just such a special time. And then to be able to pair that with a trip that you need to make anyway is just so fulfilling for me. Right now, I am cleared to do a little bit of e-bike rehab. So I've just been doing that on the bike paths, just to keep the knee continuing to come back full strength. MARK: Good. MEGAN: And that's great for me right now because there's no cars and I can enjoy that. But the truth is that bike paths don't usually get us most places that we need to go and want to go. So it's more of a joy ride. MARK: Yeah, I get that. Well, I really appreciate your taking a little time out of your day to visit with us. I will give you a chance, if you have any additional final thought in terms of wisdom you'd like to pass along, you want to share any information about your book, contact info. Whatever you feel comfortable sharing, you've got the last word. MEGAN: Okay, cool. Well, my Instagram is where I put out most of my content. And so if people are interested in following along, my Instagram handle is, @cyclist_lawyer, or my website is meganhottman.com. Megan, M-E-G-A-N, Hottman, H-O-T-T-M-A-N.com. Those are great places to find me and contact me if something I've said is calling to you. As far as words of wisdom, I think I would say yes, we go to law school to be lawyers. That's usually the outcome, that's the objective. But if someone in this profession feels that it's no longer serving them, I would encourage them to give themselves permission to say it's totally okay to pivot. And everything that we learn in law school and everything that we learn in this profession is so beneficial in so many other lines of work. We've really moved past being a population that picks the one thing and sticks with it for 50 years and then retires. We're really not that anymore. And I don't think lawyers need to expect that's the way either. So if you're sensing that something's not right and it's getting louder and louder, I think what I would also say is that the universe will get your attention. And if you choose not to listen, usually the outcome can be quite drastic. And so it's important to listen to those nudges when they're the size of little pebbles or little rocks before they grow into boulders and meteors. There's something in you that's trying to get your attention and it typically doesn't go away until you acknowledge it and face it full on. MARK: And you're a perfect example of the success that can come in so many ways, choosing to listen to your life. And that's how I have said it over the years. But that's wonderful. Well, I wish you all the best in your recovery and whatever the coming chapters in your life hold. I look forward to hearing in future how this all evolves. MEGAN: I can't wait to find out too. MARK: I get that. All right. Well folks, thank you for listening. I hope you found something of value and I encourage you to check out Megan on Instagram or her website. There's just a lot of really good information on her website, I'll tell you that too, as a risk guy. So that's it, thanks for listening. Megan, it's been a pleasure. MEGAN: Same with you. Thank you. MARK: Bye all.  

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E29 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Mark: Welcome back to the wonder science based paganism. I'm Mark. Yucca: And I'm Yucca. Mark: And today we're here to talk about a situation that really. Affects many of us in the pagan community generally. And in the nontheist pagan community specifically, which is what do we do about longtime friends or members of our family who are hostile to. Our way of being they, they disapprove of, of atheism or they disapprove of paganism, Or they disapprove of both because as we were saying before we started recording, we kind of get it from both ends. So, This is something that many of us struggle with. And especially those who have left more authoritarian kinds of religious contexts. It's not uncommon for parents or relatives or friends to be to be caught up in this idea that you must be the way that they want you to be, or or there's something wrong with. Yucca: Right, right. Or just the, the programming that you know, in, in some beliefs that, you know, they love and care about you, but they're really worth, you're gonna go to hell. Right. And they truly believe that the stuff that you're doing is gonna make you suffer for eternity or, you know, something like that. Mark: right. Which is in theory, that's a. of generous and charitable thing to think about someone else, but when you really get down to it, Yucca: That's pretty patronizing. Mark: it, it, it is. And it's also I mean, it's something that. I would think, well, okay. I, I have the perspective of having been raised with no religion. So I can't really, I can't speak with any authority about this, but it seems to me that it it's an additive to the health of a person to get out from under that. Extortion right. To get out from under that, the threatening nature of the story of heaven and hell. And I think that there is a lot of resentment that happens on the part, particularly of parents who raised you a particular way. And then you say, well, I'm not that way. Some other way. And. They as, as people that are in an authoritarian framework because they practice an authoritarian religion, the fact that you've rebelled can lead to a lot of anger. It's, it's not just about wanting, what's good for you. It's about wanting them to be obeyed. Yucca: yeah, it's a commentary for them on, on their self worth and, and you know, how good a job they did and, and all of that. Mark: Right. Right. So it's a tangled web and in some cases, more reasonable parents can be talked with parents, siblings, relatives, whatever they are. In more reasonable cases. You, we can talk with them. We can explain that we are following a path that makes us happy and that we see as fulfilling and that we really just need them to let us do that. Yucca: Right. Mark: In other cases, things are so bad that you really need to distance yourself. And that I can speak with, with some authority because my parents were incredibly toxic people, both of them. And I they're both dead now, but my mother, I hadn't seen for 16 years before she died and my father for more than 20. So, I just didn't have anything to do with them. Yucca: Well, and, and you, you split or you cut that off. Long before the, the pagan part of your life began even right. Mark: Yes. Yes. But, and, and I don't know, I mean, going into the specifics of my particular situation, aren't important, but one of the ironies to me is that I was raised in this non. context. And then my father married, my stepmother, who was a devout Catholic, and suddenly he was a Catholic, even though he was a scientist. Yucca: mm-hmm. Mark: And I don't know, I could go on for some time about hypocrisy and my father, but rather than do that, because it won't be of interest to anyone but me. The, the disapproval of the pagan stuff definitely did creep in late. You know, when I made a couple of sporadic attempts to try to get along with them but there clearly was no interest on their part to engaging me at all. All they wanted me to do was a reflective mirror. To the glory of their narcissism and I wasn't gonna do that. So, so I cut it off and it can be very hard because particularly for parents, because we carry with us a, a societal archetype about mom and dad, we an idealized vision of what mom could be like, what dad. Coming to grips with the fact that, that ain't, what you've got is a long, slow and painful process. Because you know, deep inside us, everybody wants a mother. Right. And if you figure out that you don't really have one, that's super painful. Yucca: right. So I think a, a good place to start and we can circle back around. There's so much to talk about in this, but is thinking about your own needs in a relationship. And being able to really reflect on that and see what your needs and what your boundaries are because we're. And, and I think some of this is, is more, there's a lot of gender issues going on as well. But I know at least for, for my side is, is being a woman that we're not really supposed to have boundaries, right. We're supposed to give, give, give, and a relationship is about what you can give and you're not, and you're selfish and that, I don't think this is true, but this is what we are taught is that we're selfish to, to. And stand by those boundaries. And at the end of the day, I think that's very unhealthy. Right. I don't think that that's gonna serve us very well, and you've got to, to be able to take care of yourself. Mark: right, Yucca: And so that's the first thing to figure out is what do you, what do I need? Mark: And it's particularly challenging in those authoritarian contexts where the parents are very, you know, power over dominant, because what they will tell you is you don't have any rights. You don't have a right to privacy. We, we have the right to know everything about you. We have Yucca: for your own good Mark: Yeah for your, for, for your own good. We, you know, we have the right to search your room. We have the right to read your diary. We have the right to do whatever we wanna do. However, invasive, it may seem because we have the right to own. You. In effect. And especially once if you come out of that context as an adult, it can be incredibly challenging to tell your parents, you know, my religious life, not really your business, you don't need to go into great detail about your non theist pagan, worldview and practice. If you know that it's gonna send them ballistic, you can just tell them. Sorry. I, I'm not interested in talking with you about that. Let's talk about something where we can connect, Yucca: Right. And so hopefully, hopefully they'll be able to leave it. There will be sometimes for some people, the, the case where they, they can't right where the, the parent or, and we're saying parent, but it may be somebody else. Right. But, but often it's gonna be a parent just because of that, that power dynamic there, but that they might not be able to, to let go of that. And that might just be something that, that you'll need to draw firmer Bo boundaries with. Mark: Right. Particularly, I'm thinking about going to church. Yucca: Right Mark: You know, there may come a time when you do now. I mean, you may decide that discretion is the better part of valor, and you'll just kind of suck it up and go to church with them when you visit them or whatever that is. But you can also very legitimately decide. I don't want to put any more energy into this institution that I find toxic. And sorry, mom, I'm not going to church with you this week. I don't do that anymore. Yucca: Right. Or if you've got your own kids, that's gonna especially be an issue with parents or parents in laws that, you know, they have a very strong idea about how you should be raising your family or whatever it is. And you may not wanna put your, put your kids through the same thing that you were put through or that your partner was put through. Mark: Right. Yucca: And Mark: there's harm. There's potential harm there. If you're trying to raise your kids, you know, with body positivity and a sense of gender equality and, and inclusiveness for lots of different kinds of people and sex positivity and all those kinds of good progressive values that will make them healthier people as adults. may very well have to say, no, I'm not gonna let you take my kid to Sunday school. I'm not gonna do it. That's gonna fill their head with stuff that I don't want 'em to have. And you know, maybe, maybe this is a deal breaker for you, but if you wanna see your grandkids, we have to have some agreements about how you will talk with them about these things. Yucca: Right. And that can be a really tricky thing when it is the, your partner's parents and the partner, and you have different approaches to the boundaries with those. With those parents. And that can be a big issue even when there aren't kids involved. Right. As you know, how do you dealing with the other person's family? Mark: Well, that then is a, an issue in your relationship, Yucca: yes, right. And that's Mark: it's not just a thing about your relationship with the in-laws, it's a thing in your relationship, you know, how are you gonna stick up for me? In relation to your parents' disapproval of whatever, because you're my partner and I expect you to stick up for me. Yucca: right. So those are, those are things to, to figure out. Right. And, and it sounds like mark you and I share a lot of views on. Where those boundaries might be, but for the listener, that's a, that's a personal thing to figure out, right. Maybe we seem kind of extreme to you or, or like we're taking it too easy, but really starting by figuring out how do you really feel about it now? How do you think you should feel? How do you really feel and is that what you do want to feel? Right. And if it isn't, do you wanna work on. On practice, a ritual to try and shift that right. And to try and change what, what some of your positions are, but you gotta figure out where you're at and be clear about where you're at, Mark: and what you want. Yucca: what you want. Yeah. To be fair to yourself and to the other people in the relationships, right. To be clear with them. So that it's, you know, they're not guessing about what your boundaries. Mark: Right. Yucca: Today it's okay. But tomorrow it's not. Okay. You know, you gotta be clear. Mark: that sends a terrible signal to everybody. If you're kind of, Kneely mouthed about these things and sort of trying to walk a knife edge for one thing, no one will thank you for it. You know, the people that you're trying to protect will think that you're insufficiently, you know, Viewing to their line and the people whose, whose boundary setting, you know, who need you to set boundaries are gonna see you as weak and ineffectual and not very committed to what you say you're committed to. So it's important. It really is very important to understand, okay, this is my life. What do I want? What do I want out of this relationship? Is that possible? Out of this relationship. And if it's not, then maybe you have to make some hard decisions about ending communication or, or strongly controlling communication. I know people who will not let their in-laws go off with their kids, Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: they will only let the in-laws visit when they are present. Yucca: sure. Right. Mark: And. That's just how it is for them and the in-laws aren't happy about it. I, yeah, I Yucca: see the grandkids. Mark: right. Yeah. Yucca: That's the condition. Yeah. Mark: yeah. And maybe that's. You know, and this takes courage. It bears saying, you know, drawing these kinds of boundaries takes courage and, you know, you can end up getting a screening voice on the other end of the phone. You can end up getting long screened emails that tell you what a terrible person you are, because you're, you know, trying to deprive them of their grandchildren or whatever the is. Especially when you're a parent, you have to think not only for yourself, but for your kids. And think about the wounds that, that religious background put in you, that you're working to transcend what a favor you can do for your children by not letting them be wounded that way. Or, or buffering them as much as possible from the, the messages that the society gives them about, about their sexuality, about their gender, about their body shape, about their color, about Yucca: whatever it is. Yeah. And, and we do know that with. With our kids one day, they, they will be exposed to those Mark: mm-hmm Yucca: but but that buffering could give them some time to develop and have some literal brain development and self esteem and all of those things to develop first before some of they have to be, you know, smacked in the face with somebody being racist or sexist or whatever it is to them. Mark: Right. And they know that you're in their corner. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: Because you're affirming who they are in all ways. So when they are confronted with that kind of bigotry, they can come back to you for support Yucca: right. And maybe have some tools to deal with it that they wouldn't have had when they were five or when they were nine or whatever it is yeah. That they can deal with. There's another component that I think is really important to bring in, in this piece of the, the self-reflection and the drawing your boundaries is to really be mindful about what is actually in your control and what isn't in your control. And when you're setting those boundaries, are you actually setting boundaries for yourself or are you trying to control somebody else's behavior? Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: And just be, just be mindful and clear about that because that's something that can be a little bit slippery sometimes. Mark: And people can use things that are in their control in very subtle ways to make it hard for you to draw a boundary or stand up for yourself. One of the things that my parents did is I had to go to their house. It was the only, the only way that I could ever see them or my siblings cuz I'm the oldest of seven was to go to their territory, a house that ran by their rules, where they were the authorities Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and it became quite clear. That, that was one of the many ways in which they were deliberately disempowering me as well as, you know, bad mouthing me to my siblings and all that kind of stuff. Yucca: Right. Hmm. Mark: So, you know, maybe. You know, maybe you set some conditions on the relationship, you know, if you want, see me, come see me. Right.  Yucca: Or neutral territory, Mark: yeah. Well, we'll, we'll, we'll meet at the aquarium and look at fish. Yucca: yeah. Well, that that actually leads to kind of the second part that I, that I wanted to talk about which we've started with the, what do you do when the relationship actually is very toxic, right? That's what we've been talking about, but there's also, and I hope this is gonna be a little bit more common of a situation than what we've been talking about, the situation where it's just uncomfortable. They have a particular set of beliefs and you have a different set of beliefs and you don't really kind of agree with each other and maybe you don't really wanna talk about it, but how do you still be able? So you've, you've set boundaries and they're respecting those boundaries. How do you then get to still have a meaningful relationship and share things with them without, without this your choices and their choices about. You're religious and, and personal lives being a relationshiper. And when you brought up the aquarium, that was one of the things that I was thinking about. You know, I have some siblings who are not pagan, right? My family's very split. We have half of us who are pagan and the other half who are, are quite Christian. Right. And you know, we still love each other deeply and share things, find things that we both value. And share those particular things. And they are things that I think are, are pretty pagan personally. Right. Let's go look at the fish together. Let's go on a nature walk like to me, like, yeah, that's, that's super pagan, but they're not gonna frame it that way. I'm gonna frame it that way, but I'm not gonna rub it in their face. Right. I, I'm not gonna be like, oh yeah, you know, we're gonna go do our pig, anything. Also speaking of query, you've got an aquarium shirt on don't you Mark: Oh, oh, I do Monterey bay aquarium. Yeah. It's Monterey bay aquarium a collection of sharks, Yucca: Ah, sharks are great. So, Mark: know, that sharks predate trees. Isn't that amazing. Yucca: It makes sense when you say it, but wow. Yeah, we went to the aquarium. I took the kids to the aquarium recently, and this week we went to the zoo. And they, they lost their minds with light, with all of the animals. Mark: Mm-hmm Yucca: So, but their favorite though, were the PFO. So there was a P H with her little chicks following behind. And even though it was like there's lions and polar bears, they got to actually like interact with the, with the peacocks and they just were so happy. So anyways, Mark: Cool. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So, yeah. I think really understanding, maybe even drawing a Venn diagram, you know, what, what are we sharing common? What are our common interests and passions? You know, if we both really love gardening, we can do some gardening together and you know, that doesn't, or, or, you know, or hunting. Yucca: mm-hmm Mark: Um, I'm not trophy hunting. I would hope because that's. Awful, but you know, food hunting going out and, you know, getting, getting stuff to eat what, whatever it is Yucca: That was my brother. Yeah. Mark: Whatever it is that you share an interest in and are willing to kind of meet them in the middle, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: then you can build a relationship around those kinds of things. It's so much harder to build a relationship that's spending all of its time, dealing with stuff where you don't meet eye to eye. Yucca: Yeah. Or trying to prove things to each other, Mark: Right. Yucca: right. I mean, if you both, if, what you're, if what if your Vinn diagram has debate club in the middle, maybe that's different. Right. But , but otherwise, you know, that you can spend your energy, you've got a limited amount of energy to spend on things. So what's it gonna be, right? Is it gonna be those shared things that you, that you love and can you have a relationship with this person without needing to, to agree on. Certain things. And I think that that's a good approach for not just family members or close friends, but also the community at large. Right. Are you in a community that, that generally has a different take than you do? Well, what, what is it that you do share together? Right. And connecting with each other on that really human level makes it so that that's a wonderful experience to have. First of all, but also later on, when you have a disagreement, you see each other as human, because you had that connection about, you know, the park or the gardening or the library or whatever it is. Mark: right. Yeah. And to me that also brings up the, the necessity of finding support for yourself. Yucca: Mm-hmm, Mark: Because when you have these kinds of challenges in your family, finding support from people of common values and views, and also potentially from professional therapists, right. Becomes really important. As you're working to kind of emerge from the shadow of a family that. In most cases has felt like it can tell you what to do and what to believe and who to be and all that kind of stuff. It's really important that you find people that are gonna help you stay strong in your boundaries. Stay clear about your priorities and enable you to be yourself, right? People who affirm you in who you are.  Yucca: We've already been waving it in a little bit, but do we wanna talk about some strategies and activities? Mark: Sure let's do that. Yeah. Why don't you start. Yucca: yeah, so, I mean, we mentioned things like the, the zoo and aquariums and parks and all of that, but For the, the family members that, that you can have that more accommodating relationship with. What are some activities that you would suggest Mark: Well, what comes to mind immediately to me is, you know, finding, finding neutrally. Posed places like a zoo, for example, doesn't really have a whole ideological piece to it other than animals are cool, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: which is something that generally, you know, people can agree on whether or not they're pagans or Christians or whatever it is. What's more challenging is when. There isn't a choice of, of venue. Like, you know, being invited over for Christmas, Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: you know, what do you do there obviously? I mean, especially if you have children, the children are gonna be really amped about the presence and probably the sweets and you know, all the other things that tend to go along with celebrating Christmas and it can be very hard. To be in that context, if somebody starts, you know, saying grace over dinner or, you know, going on about Jesus Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: and my take on that has always been it's similar to my take on, you know, going to theist pagan rituals. It's like your house, your rules. I'm not gonna pray with you, but I will sit quietly. I'm not going to protest. And that is kind of the strategy that I encourage. Now, if somebody gets all bent outta shape at you, because you don't close your eyes and bow your head or say amen, then they probably are more controlling than you can deal with in that way. Yucca: Right. Yeah. Then we're kind of back to the, the start of the conversation. Mark: Right. Yucca: Yeah. Another thing to, to consider when you are going to say like the Christmas situation. And especially if there, if there are kids involved is making a list, a priority list, right. Of what, what is your top thing that you're gonna have your boundary? Right. Is, are you going to be, you know, do you have certain dietary restrictions? That is the thing that you need to be just really vigilant about, and then you kind of let the other stuff slide because you're a guest, right? Or, but, or what is it? The, what is the, what are the things and how important are they to you in this situation, right? Where are you willing to be giving a little bit in this, this situation where you. in their space, in their home versus what is the big picture of overall Mark: Right. And the other thing you can do of course, is you can invite people to come have Christmas at your house, Yucca: mm-hmm Mark: and then you can maybe make your statement of gratitude to the earth for all the wonderful things that spring from it and keep us alive. And. Sort of leave it in the lap of the people who have come over as guests, if they feel a need to jump in with a statement about Jesus. Well, maybe that's okay. Maybe you can have both varieties of invocation. It seems as though in many cases, accommodation can be made unless. Unless the primary orientation of the people that you're negotiating these boundaries with is about control and anger at lack of control, because you're an adult, you don't need somebody else to control you. Maybe they haven't got their mind around the fact that you're an adult yet. But it's time, right? You're an adult, especially, you know, you got your own kids, like, come on. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I'm I'm not 10 anymore. It's time. It's time for you to respect that. I can have my own opinions about things and live my own life. Yucca: Right. Well, and this gets into other philosophies, but, and with mine, They don't need to be controlling the 10 year old either. Mark: Mm-hmm Yucca: They, they are people too and get their own opinions. Now, do you need to keep them safe from not burning themselves on that stove or, you know, that's, there's levels there, but, but you don't magically become a person when you turn 18. You've been a person the whole time, right? Yeah. Mark: right. As soon as you're old enough to have. Tastes and opinions, which probably means by the time you're six months old, something like that. Then it's time for those Yucca: before. Mark: tastes and opinions to be respected. Right. And they don't have to be explained, you know, it's like, if you don't like strained carrots, you just don't like strained carrots. We're not gonna feed you strained carrots anymore. And This is something that for, for parents of previous generations, particularly can be very hard to get their mind around because the traditional parenting model in our society is quite authoritarian. And in patriarchal, it's very much about, you know, the man ruling the roost and. being in a power hierarchy where the children are at the bottom Yucca: Right. Mark: and if Yucca: And even a hierarchy within the children based on age and gender and all of that. Yeah. Mark: Right, right. Absolutely. So, so hopefully that's dying out at least in some places. But. Those places are not everywhere, you know, and we certainly see plenty of toxic masculinity around us expressing itself in that same sort of outraged way of, you know, how dare you have your own opinion, how dare you be your own person? How dare you not count how to my wishes. Yucca: yeah. Mark: And so once again, it, it really comes down to this thing where you have to balance out what do I get out of this relationship versus what am I being what's being demanded of me? Because I mean, that was really, that was really what. What settled it for me, all I was getting from my relationship was with my parents was criticism and anger and efforts at control and gas, lighting and mockery. And it had been that way since I was a little tiny kid. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: And it was like, you know what? You don't have anything good to offer me. I don't, I'm gonna stop drinking from this particular tap because it tastes really bad. Yucca: Right. And you didn't know him anything. Mark: Nope. Yucca: Right. And that, that's one of the stories that is, well, you know, we, we raised you and sacrificed for you and guilt, guilt, guilt, guilt, guilt. But it at really at. They are responsible for their emotions and you're responsible for yours Mark: mm-hmm yeah. Yucca: you know, it's, you don't have to be, and you probably wouldn't have ever been able to make them happen anyways, Mark: Oh Yucca: it's a choice on their part. Right. No matter what you do. Mark: they were miserable people and that, I mean, that's part of. I think what infuriated them so much about me is that I was not interested in being miserable. You know, I just didn't wanna be the way they were. So, you know, getting away from my example, particularly, I think. Especially in, you know, some of the, like really conservative, evangelical versions of Christianity. It's like the default position is sort of moral superiority and anger at everybody who doesn't follow along. That's that's not a particularly healthy. Thing to draw from, if that's, what, if that's what you're getting from your parental relationship, then maybe it's time not to have that relationship. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Or to distance it a lot and say, you know, I'll visit you once a year or, you know, I'll talk with you on the phone every six months or whatever it is. There are gradations of estrangement, right? But what I found was that I came away from every communication feeling, yucky feeling really devalued and gaslit to the degree of being told that I was crazy and all that kind of stuff, it was just like, no, I don't need this. I got better use for my time. Life is short. Yucca: right. Mark: And it doesn't mean that I haven't gone through lots of pain over that loss over time. And I, even though they're dead, I can still, you know, have pain over the loss of the idealized parent. You know, the dad that actually valued me, the mom that actually loved me, you know, I can still grieve those ideas. I'm not, sorry. I don't think I missed out on anything by not communicating with them over all those years before they died. Yucca: Hmm. Yeah. Mark: So remember, it's your life? Yucca: Right. Mark: Yeah, it's your life and you get to live it. You get to make the decisions that seem to be best to you. And some of them are gonna be fuckups, but that doesn't matter, you know, that's, that's the nature of being a human. Having someone else tell you how you're supposed to think and act is not something you need in your life. Yucca: right. Because they're not in your shoes. They're not you. Mark: Nope. Yucca: actually, nobody really knows what they're doing. Mark: yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yucca: It might seem like it. But I think about this a lot. Do you remember being a kid and looking at adults and thinking that they knew what the hell they were doing and now that you're adult an adult. Do you feel like, you know what you're doing? Nobody does. Right. Mark: well, I mean, Yucca: to some degree, but Mark: But, but parents often represent themselves as these competent authority figures to their children, because that's where they get the authority to say, don't do that. Right. And. Yeah, it's all affront. And you, you talk with any parent that will be honest with you about it, and they'll tell you it's all affront it's like, I Yucca: terrified. I dunno what the hell I'm doing? Mark: right, right, Yucca: I'm messing them up. That's what? That, what we all worry. Mark: right. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Well, In my experience, the thing that somebody needs more than anything else as they're growing up is the sense that there is some adult somewhere who finds them valuable and lovable and is in their corner. No matter what if there's one such person, whether it's an uncle or a grandparent or a family friend, just one such person, it makes all the difference in the world. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So be that for your kids. Yucca: Mm-hmm or your niece or your nephew, or Mark: Right? Yucca: right. And for yourself too, Mark: Yeah. Yucca: right? Mark: Yeah. And that can be the hardest of all of those challenges because we hold ourselves to such impossible standards. And that internal critic voice that we've talked about before, it can be so incredibly cruel. Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: Just really over the top cruel, you would never talk to another person the way that that voice will talk to you. So it's a good idea to find ways to curb it, get it, to get it to calm down and shut up. Yucca: Yeah, well, you know, this was really fun. We, we went kind of all over the place with this and it was a, it was a great conversation. Mark: Yeah, I think so too. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Yucca. Yucca: Yeah. Likewise. Mark: Okay. We'll be back next week. 

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E26 TRANSCRIPT: ----more----   Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-Based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts Yucca. Mark: And I'm Mark Yucca: And this week we're talking about the summer. and connecting with our local ecosystems in general, whether that's rural wilderness, urban, whatever it is, where you are, the. Mark: right. Yeah. We were talking about this before we started recording, it's, it's inevitable that in the dark and, and. And cold times of the year in here in the tempera zone that we get driven indoors by our climate. And so our observations and rituals and activities tend to be really indoor focused at that time of the year. Well, now we're at the opposite end of the year, and it's a time to get out and do things and explore the world because as pagans. One of the things we really want to be is really engaged with the world in our lives. Yucca: Right. Right. And, and we really encourage people to. Be getting out and experiencing things anytime of year, but this time makes it a lot easier. And there are a lot of things that are already happening. Outside is when there are lots of outdoor gatherings. It's pretty typical that somebody might be having a barbecue or anything like that. Now of course there are some environments. If you are in Tucson, for instance, You might not be wanting to go out during the date time, you might be spending a lot of time at night outside during the summer, rather than being out in the middle of the day at 110 degrees. Mark: Right. Right. And the desert is amazing at night. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: That's, that's well worth exploring checking out what it's like to be, out there in that nighttime environment with all those millions of stars. So, yeah, so let's talk a little bit about this. One of the things that we, that we talk about a lot here is how all of what we experience on earth is nature, right? There's there's, there is no, bright line distinction between the so called artificial, which is the human made and the natural, which is the stuff that's made by everything else. Humans. A part of nature. And what we do is natural. Some of what we do, isn't very good for the rest of the biosphere. But it's still natural. And so engaging with both what's going on in human culture, as well as with with the biological world is it's an important part of our practice. And so, one of the things that we talked about and, and have mentioned many times is this practice of paying attention. Yucca: And that, I mean, there's so many benefits to that. And some of it is, is just on a very practical level of just how you end up feeling in your health as, as another animal. And some of it is also the sense of connection and satisfaction and. Wonder and awe that we get on that very emotional level as well for just tuning in, right. Mark: right, right. And that tuning in it can tell us things about what's going on in the hidden world that we can't see of, of. We, we don't get to follow a bee around and find all the, find out all the things that the bee does. Right. We may see the bee on some flowers and then it flies off. And the rest of what it does, unless you're a beekeeper is kind of mysterious. And the cycles of all of the living, things that are going on around us are very much like that. So we're kind of, observing the tip of the iceberg of everything that's out there. But even that can tell us a lot about what's happening with our climate, what what's happening with the time of year, how that might have changed from our previous year. And so one tool that we encourage you to take up if you haven't already is what's called a phenology journal. And a phenology journal. Literally, what that means is what happened. Phenol phenology is just keeping track of what happened. And so if you go out and in the morning before you get ready to go to work, if you sit for 10 minutes and write down what you see and what temperature it is and what the sky looks like. Pretty soon you will have a data set that will give you a lot of information about how to cha, how to celebrate your Yucca: Mm-hmm right. And, it's kind of funny when we talk about, oh, so what topic do we wanna talk about next episode? Or, what, what can we talk about that we haven't, since we've done, almost three years of episodes and occasionally we'll be browsing through topics, like pagan. And blog ideas or something like that and come across the idea of a book of shadows and both of us have gone. Well, I don't really do that. I don't really have much to say about that. But this is kind of, this is at least for me, the closest thing that I would do to a book of shadows, where it's a recording of what I see, what I noticed what's happening. Not so much about me on the inside. But about the land around me, about the, the area where, where Mark: mm-hmm yeah. And that isn't mutually exclusive with a more traditional book of shadows either. I mean, you could put your, the rituals that you're practicing, whatever Toro cards you drew that day, you could put all that into that journal as well. If you wanted to, or you could keep that stuff in a separate journal Yucca: Right. Mark: as, just as easily, but the, the. The practice of paying attention in that very detailed way of being an amateur scientist and observing and gathering the data about what's happening around you can be really illuminating. And what I find is that it's illuminating about myself too, because if I look at, if I look at my journal entries, I'll notice. Well, okay. This day I was apparently really distracted cuz I didn't capture very much. This other day I was really engaged because I wrote a whole page of stuff that I was observing. And so you kind of learned things about yourself as well. So. Having said all that about how great it is to pay attention and to, keep track of what we're learning, what you can learn about what's happening around you. This is the time of year for field trips, Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: uh, which some people call vacations or weekends of camping or whatever it is. And that doesn't have to mean going to a spot of so called nature. Because human activity is, as I just said, human activity is also nature and culture is something that's also very interesting. So, going to a concert, going to a, a special restaurant, going to a lecture or. Museum, all of those things too, can, be informative of your pagan experience because what we want to be, the reason that we're Pagan's right, is that we want to be engaged with the world. We wanna celebrate that as we go forward. So I invite you, whether or not you're able to take time and, and go away to somewhere that's, more trees and animals than it is buildings.  Yucca: Right. Mark: So bring that, that kind of curiosity to the experiences that you can have in the urban environment too. And we are, this is sort of a, a preview. We're gonna do an episode on urban paganism. It's a, it's an idea that was just suggested to us, and we want to do that, but it's gonna take a little bit to set up, cuz we'd like to do, we'd like to have some interviews with that. Yucca: Yeah. So, so thinking about some of the things that. In an urban environment, let's say, you, if you could do a trip to the mountains for camping for a week, like wonderful, but that's unlikely to be what most of us can do. There can be just little moments too, like stopping for half an hour. And people watching or going to the park or actually even just taking a different route home on your commute and noticing what do you see? What do you pick up on, right? Or is there part of the town where. When you do your, your grocery shopping, if you go to a particular store, is there that same store on the other part of town that you can go to and you can go there just a few times a year and kind of check in like, oh, what is it like in the early spring? And what's that part of town like in the, the fall or that sort of thing, just that in making a point to pay attention and be aware in the little moments. That is that's Mark: Right, right. One of the things that we're learning about human memory is that memory, memory that's accessible, that you can, that you can reach back to and, and, bring conjure the, the moment up again, it tends to be of things that are novel. Yucca: wonderful and helpful Mark: Things that are new, which is why traveling is so wonderful because every experience is a new experience. You're not in the rut of the same house, the same car, the same workplace, the same route to work. So introducing novelty into your life that way can make your life a lot more memorable and feel like you're having. More life, you, you don't, you don't wake up one day and realize God, three years have gone by how did that happen? Cuz you're doing things that are interesting and and keep you awake and alive. Yucca: Right. And that's one of the thoughts about why it felt like years lasted for so long when we were kids. And then the older we get, the more, it just seems to be flying by. Some of that is perspective in that, the one year is just a much shorter period of our lives now, but when we were a kid, everything was new. Right. You learned, you learned that other continents existed for the first time. At some point when you were a kid or the first time you learned about the periodic table, or you heard an owl or a something, all of those things were new. The whole world was new and actually. Even though we're, I'm assuming most folks listening are, are adults. Maybe we've got some, some awesome youth listening as well. But even though things are, are, we've experienced a lot of the world we've not experienced anywhere, close to all of it. Mark: Mm-hmm Yucca: could have something new, a novel every single day of your life. If you are looking for it. And paying attention for it. Mark: Right. And that's why this paying attention is so important for having an engaged life. One of the big differences between paganism, including non theist, paganism and. The the big monotheisms is that. As far as we're concerned, we're living for this world, we're even, even pagans who believe in an afterlife, don't generally believe that they're trying to qualify for some afterlife. That's a good one. They believe that something else is gonna happen after you die. But in the meantime, our job is to live this life as well as we possibly can. Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: And as non theist pagans, as far as we're concerned, that's it, you die and nature disassembles you and forms you into new stuff. So this life and engaging with this world that has brought us forth becomes the central mission. Of our existence and that's a really profoundly different approach than the mainstream approach. And it's so important, I believe for introduction of that into the culture, because it's the only it's that ethic that's gonna enable us to really tackle problems like climate change. People have really got to understand how important this world is in order to make the appropriate and sometimes uncomfortable adjustments that are gonna be required in order for us to solve this. Yucca: Yeah. Right. And, and being aware of what this world is, that's a big step in that, right. Because as we've been talking about the, the human world of culture and all of these, that's totally valid and it's extremely important, but it's not all of it. It's a very, very small, tiny sliver of what's happening. What's part of this planet and this Mark: Yes. Yes. And so. Having a respectful curiosity about all of these things becomes a really useful default position. Yucca: system mm-hmm Mark: I mean, I would take that one step further. I would say that having a respectful curiosity carries into successful to successful relationships, successful business practices, all that kind of thing, because it keeps your mind. It means that you're listening and it means that you are acknowledging the the dignity and worth of the people that are around you and of the non-human entities that are around you, the, the creatures of the world. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So really encourage you during these summer months to get out there whatever out there means to you. I mean, with COVID, we've been staying in a lot and of course we want you to be safe, but take a field trip, take a walk in a different direction than you used to take a different route home from work rearrange furniture in one of your rooms, shake it up. Yucca: Yeah. And if you do have an opportunity to maybe do something a little bit more than you typically would if you do have a chance to go camping or just to put that tent up in your backyard, if you have one where you might have just stayed home for your day off, that's also of the things about the summer is that it's a time where you just gotta do. Right in the winter often we're hunkered down and we're starting the late winter, early spring. We're planning in the summer. Now's the time, Mark: right. Yucca: it's the time to do it, if you're gonna do it, do it. And at least for me, sometimes that's the hardest part. Great. At the planning. . And then I just wanna sit there and keep planning about how I will go and do this thing. But then I gotta actually get up and do it, so that's, everybody's gonna be different with that, but just encourage people if you have the opportunity, whatever it is. And then once you get that momentum going, it's easier to carry it into the colder months or into the times of year. That might not be quite as comfortable or pleasant to be out. And again, it's gonna really depend on what your climate is. Mark, I would imagine where you live being outside in. January might not be so terrible. Right? Mark: No. I mean, it, it could be wet. At least we hope it is cuz we're in the middle of a terrible drought. But other than that, I mean the temperatures are still in the forties and fifties. It's just  Yucca: so it's sweater, weather, sweater, and a raincoat. Yeah. Mark: Sweater and a raincoat. Exactly. It's not, I mean the kinds of overcoats that people wear in areas that get really cold, we just never see them here because nobody ever needs them. Yucca: right. Yeah. Very different. But it very, very different than if you were in Missoula. Right. Trying to go out. And, and in January. So, but, but the point is like, whatever it is for you getting that, that momentum going this is a good time for that. If that's where you're at. Mark: It is. And one trick in doing that is to enlist allies. Yucca: Mm Mark: One way I imagine you can make things happen. Yucca is by telling your kids that they're going to happen, Yucca: Yes, it it, and then. Mark: then Yucca: They are. Yes. Oh, they Mark: hook. Yucca: ex and you think they forget about it. Right? And then you hear the little voice mom, you said like, oh yeah, I did say it, but it's bedtime now. Nope. Okay. I promised all right, let's go do it. Mark: Okay. Yeah, it is. It is amazing how the expectations of others could leverage us, Yucca: Yeah. And if you maybe make a, make a date to, to see somebody in the park, right? Hey, we're gonna meet for half an hour. We're just gonna talk for, hang out for that half an hour and then we're gonna go home. That other person is, is expecting you. Mark: Right. Yucca: And yeah, that's a, that's a wonderful point. So that goes back to some of the stuff we've been talking about, about, finding community and building community. And that can be powerful, but if you don't have that, you can still have that amazing private. Personal relationship with whatever it is you're doing the new route home that you're taking, or the sitting at the park, or, you know what, taking a moment to, to drink your morning caffeine on the porch or whatever it is that you're gonna be doing. You can do that in that, those quiet moments of Mark: right, right. So, this is a somewhat shorter episode this time and that's because we want to encourage you to go out and find it, whatever it is. It's it's summer. Which means a lot of different things in a lot of different places. But what it does mean universally for those of us that are in the Northern hemisphere is that the days are long. There's a, there's a lot of time to do stuff. And so, we hope that you will seize the opportunity to do exciting novel and interesting things and engage with your world. Yucca: right. And we will be back with you next week to already be talking about that August holiday coming up. Mark: That's right. Yeah. The, the wheel continues to turn, so we'll be here and we hope you will Yucca: Thank you everyone.    .

In this episode, I have the opportunity to sit down with someone that has digested and synthesize the tax code and brings the tax saving secrets to you. Grant  Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Financial investing radio. So today I have with me someone that just barely met. But as I review, his biography, his profile what he does, it is in one of those places, which I admittedly know so little about, I lean on so many people for help in this area. Now I get to meet with and speak with an expert in the area of how to take it to the tax man. All right, let me welcome Mark Meyers here today. Welcome, Mark. Mark Hey, thank you so much, Grant, I'm excited to chat with you about this. And, you know, hey, if you can keep more of that hard earned profit. It definitely helps in the wealth accumulation realm for sure. So this exciting topic. Grant Boy, for sure. You know, when when you think about taxes and talking about taxes, you know, it's probably right up there with flossing your teeth, right? It's like, oh, everyone should be doing it. Right. But oh, my gosh, do I really want to talk about taxes. Turns out, as I was reviewing some things that you have done to help people, individuals, businesses, really reduce their tax burden. And putting that money, like you said, or leaving that money back in your pocket, suddenly, it becomes really an interesting topic to address. But before you give away any secrets, let's back up. How is it that you got interested in taxes? What is it that even got you to this point?  Mark Grant, you know, it's an interesting story, because I started out my career at the University of Florida, with as an undergrad in exercise physiology, get my Master's in sports management, moved to New York City to manage health clubs, and then moved to Los Angeles to edit, manage more health clubs. And in the process of doing that, I helped a really large high end brand, open a number of different locations. And in that they were they went from a 10 clubs to over 100 clubs. And in that process, I really learn to be an owner operator, every club that I would open or go chant, you know, help return around, I'd have to really be mindful of driving revenue, minimizing expenses, putting the operations in in place, you know, the best practices in place to get the best output. And of course, I was compensated on EBIT margin, so I'd get a base, and then I'd have cash bonus based off of how profitable is the company process, I realized, you know, hey, I might be running health clubs. And I might have a background here, but I have a knack for running companies. And I know there's a lot more opportunity in the financial markets in the financial world, particular to consulting with business owners, that's when I said the light came on after, you know, working well over a decade, you know, 365 days a year, and these clubs are open from, you know, five in the morning till 12 At night, you know, they never got hit. So I'm like, Okay, I'm going to shift gears here and do something fun that can ultimately help other people, and also helped me kind of increase my income opportunity here. Get out of this glass ceiling environment. Grant Yeah. So So you are living this life of just constantly being on right, the lights on, right, because your clubs are on right, the gyms are open, and so you're trying to optimize as much as possible. Talk about school, hard knocks, right? I mean, you learn the lessons along the way, for sure, right? Oh, for sure. Mark I mean, it's one of those things where you know, every penny counts, particularly in that industry. And of course, I worked in a higher end layer. So it was, you know, we're looking at 200 plus dollar a month memberships with spa packages and training and Pilates and Yoga. But at the same time, you still have to be mindful of your margins. That's really, really important. So it was it was a nice experience. It was a nice way to understand how to really learn the p&l, learn the people, learn the drivers, and then of course transitioned over to say, hey, I can speak to business owners, I could speak to those that are looking to, you know, increase efficiency. And there's a lot of opportunity there. So that's kind of where this all kicked off. Grant So in the course of doing this, you start uncovering, I'm assuming, oh, here's a little secret about how I could save a little more money or take some out of the taxes. I imagine over a period of time you started to build up this cadre, or list of or selection of wait, here's some best practices of actually taking the tax back from the tax man and leaving it with you. There's it was it was it that it was a 10 year journey that you invested in to build up that knowledge base? It sounds like, Right? Mark Absolutely. And you know, you really said something important, and it was very accurate in that my, my getting to where I am now didn't happen overnight. In particularly shifting gears, I'd say the last seven or eight years is when I really really shifted gears, to not just talk about can I just not consult with with individuals on their businesses and help them with maybe some financial planning, really shifting gears and saying, hey, there are a lot of different opportunities to reduce tax. And I just went out there. And just like in the past, in my first few years of this, I was kind of more of an advanced insurance specialist and consultant to business owners, and I could go out there and work with any insurance carrier. And I could basically look and say, you know, this is the carrier need for this solution. And this is why this is I realized I could do the same thing in the tax realm, there's just not 100 different, you know, tax savings providers out there, there's probably about 20 to 30 that you want to do business with. And these are small groups are generally fairly boutique, they're not huge. And they offer something very, very specific. And it's somewhere in the 70,000 pages of tax code. And they just so happened to analyze it, apply it. And basically, that's their gig key. So I have a lot of different tools in the tool chest, I have a lot of different relationships with groups that do these things. And I break when I do consulting work, I just put all the pieces of the puzzle together. And it's really cool. I'm not a CPA, I'm not a tax attorney, I'm really literally I call myself a tax savings architect, I've just developed this ability to consult, oh, that's a great title.  Grant Wait, say that title again, you're a what? Mark A tax savings architect, Oh, I love it together, I just build I build the plan. And then I bring the vendors in, right, the right team on the on the coach, I'm bringing the right team in to put the right plays in at the right times. And then the implementation goes, you know, off, you know, from there. Grant So, what I want to highlight is you have developed this by doing it again and again, maybe making a mistake fixing it again and again, oh, learning more again, and you put in that 10 year effort to gather and build that experience and that that's the value platform that you bring to the people so they're not off doing 10 years of learning the lessons, right? Mark Oh, for sure. Grant, I'll tell you, these are types of things that, you know, people don't have time, even the best CPAs right. And you can think about any CPA out there, you've got out of every 10 You're gonna have to my experience, you're gonna have two out of 10 that have developed their practice in a way that they'll have forward looking have a forward looking approach. And they'll have more bandwidth than just, you know, recording and tracking and filing right most of them record track and file. Do you have any more expenses? Are you sure you don't have any more you know, you can buy this capital, we get section 179 it so why don't you spend $1 to save 35 cents? No, that's, that's really a good idea if you need what you're buying. But two out of 10 are forward looking right? They're actually stepping outside of the box and seeing what's out there. They're 70,000 pages of tax code. So this is where the key is at 10 years, you're talking about their 70,000 pages of tax code you if you're going to win a championship. If you're a team think about a just a collegiate team or a professional team. They have multiple coaches. They have strength coaches, they have quarterback coaches that are talking about football they have offensive line coaches defensive line coaches look at businesses the reason why Amazon and Microsoft and General Electric and Nike and DuPont the reason why they pay significantly lower taxes than the average individual is because they have teams they have accounting teams, more than one CPA, they have attorneys they have business strategists. So this is what I really do is I bring that team approach to the small to medium size business owner or you don't even have to be a small to medium sized business owner to have tax savings you can be a high income earning executive. Oh really how to Matt navigate the tax code. There's things that you can do to reduce your tax. Grant Okay, so that gets the the question I was gonna ask around who is this for? Definitely the business owner. But if you're, if you're in the High Net Worth areas and individual this is applicable to you as well. Mark Absolutely. There's three there's three He kind of avenues, business owners. And the reason why is business owners are great to work with because they have control over their income, they can determine how much salary they take, they can determine how they take their income. It really they have the control. The other side would be high income earning executives that maybe don't have as much control but they're they're looking at, you know, half a million dollars or more of taxable income per year. I can work with business owners with much less I mean, they can have as low as 250 or so in taxable income, okay, because the more there's more flexibility. And then the Third Avenue is people that are selling highly appreciated assets, once a lot of crypto traders or somebody that had a stock portfolio, but they didn't have this huge blend, it wasn't like a qualified account, it was just a brokerage account, they had positions that just blew up, and now they're sitting on, you know, $5 million with Apple stock. Well, if they pull the trigger on it, they're looking at, you know, if they're California 37%. Grant Yeah, goodbye to that.  Mark Yeah, well, I can help them, you know, really take care of that as well either eliminated or different depending on what solutions we're looking at. Grant So, okay, what about what about on the, on the inheritance side, same same sort of story. In other words, let's say you inherited something is you have techniques that helps with that group as well. Mark Well, on the inheritance side, I don't spend a lot of time there, because generally, that should be done prior to and a lot of the work that I do actually blends in with maybe some estate planning attorneys, because you really want to solve that equation prior to the need. If you don't, then unfortunately, if you're above the exemption rate, the estate tax man will come take, you know, 60% of that from your kids, right? Not from you, but from your kids and your loved ones. And they might even have to be, they might have to sell appreciate it like this is a real estate high net worth real estate holder, they're selling off real estate just to pay the estate tax, which is never a good thing. So we when it comes to the gifting and the you know passing on to heirs, we generally integrate that into our planning, but we're doing it prior to so that way the kids and their loved ones can breathe, you know, sleep well at night and not have to worry too much about worrying too much about about that sort of thing.  Grant So so let's take the scenario of you're a small and medium business owner and you've got the you've got this tax burden on you. Do you need to be doing the work ahead of time? Is this a whole year of effort that the business owner goes through? Whether they have to be intentional throughout the whole year? Or do your practices, techniques allow you to just sort of come in at the last minute and who 30% off? Thanks, Mark. Have a great year? Mark Yes, well, I would say a little bit of all apply. But proactive forward looking is always the best. The best approach is a forward looking approach. Now I can do hindsight foresight, and then give you insight. On the hindsight we're always looking at, well, what did you miss that you can go back and pick up a lot of people don't realize, particularly in business, there's tax credits that they can pick up in previous years. Currently, right now for the next few months. There's the employee retention tax credit. So there's there's r&d credits, there's there's trends for investing in renewable energy, they can go backwards and pick up previous taxes paid, it's always look at the hindsight, what can we pick up that you paid in the last year or two or three? Ford, Ford sight? Or, you know, foresight is okay, what can we do to change the trajectory of your current income? Because right now, the way we're always looking at pathways, how are you taking your income, because what we need to do is look at creating new pathways. And if you have different pathways to receive the same income, there might be a different taxable situation. But those pathways aren't going to save you. You can't save any money until the pathway is created. So the foresight we're always looking at, well, this is how much money you're taking in now. And you've taken it in one pathway, or maybe two pathways, and this is your taxable outcome. But what if we created two additional pathways? Now you have four pathways, and we're not talking about deferring it. And putting into qualified accounts. I'm not talking about any of that, obviously, that's been going on for years and years and years is there's arguments as to whether or not that really is saving them anything. At the end of the day, we're talking about really taking tax law and the tax code by the horns and saying, hey, the tax code says I can do this, therefore, this money is not taxable. Right. So now that you have this money in your hand, that's not taxable you and you've lowered your adjusted gross income because you took a portion of your money that the tax code says is not taxable because of the way that you've structured it structure that we've just just decreased your taxes and you're like liquid, like the money that you save is liquid, it's in your pocket. If you want to use that for investing you can if you want to use that to recapitalize your business you can if you want to use that to go to Vegas, you can. Grant Yeah, your choice and that's the whole point. It's your choice rather than Uncle Sam. So the strategy seems to be tell me if I've got this right. It's don't fire your CPA because you're going to keep The CPA as a business owner, because you're not the CPA, but what you are bringing is a way to be more productive as you work with the CPA, right, you're bringing in additional knowledge or insight that will then be brought into those conversations with the CPA currently have is that close 100%. Mark And what I always like to tell business owners, and right off the bat is, you know, let's, let's not put your CPA on defense mode, right? They, there's no CPA out there that has the bandwidth, to have this time to vet and research all these different ways to save taxes. I mean, they know a lot, but because they may not know everything that I'll bring to the table, that's okay. So the first thing is make sure that they're not on the defense. And also, I'm not looking to take over any bookkeeping, your tax filing or tax prep, I'm just looking to add additional layers that usually increase revenue for the accounting because it usually does increase their need to maybe have an additional filing each year, or maybe some additional bookkeeping to take to oversee these new solutions.  Grant So it's all day for you as a partner in it, your they don't see you as Oh, I'm here taking business from 100%. Mark Most of the time, when I'm speaking to the right CPAs. And I'm introduced to them by the taxpayer, I get introduced to three or four new clients that the CPA has, because they're like, this is great, I have you know, four or five, or depending on the CPA, they might work with a higher net worth individuals, they might have more, but I like those relationships, because they open the door for more opportunity. Now, I will say there's going to be out of that regard every 10 CPAs, there's two that are for thinking. And there's eight that are really just doing the numbers really doing the prep the recording and filing and prepping. Sometimes the eight, there could be some resistance there. And it's it's, it's only because they don't know what they don't know. So in those situations, hey, I always say it's up to you. It's up to the taxpayer, that you're the decision maker, the CPA is not the decision maker. And I have you know, I never want to pry someone away from their CPA, but if they really liked what I'm talking about under CPAs, just very resistant, doing anything that they're outside of their norm was to have dozens and dozens of CPAs all over the nation that would be very happy to interview you. Or you could interview them because they know the solutions and their clients use them. Grant Yeah, I was gonna ask you. So how does you know? What's some guidance for our listeners on? How do you pick? How do you find those two out of the 10? CPAs? Right? What are some of the key things that someone's looking for? to vet your CPA or while you're searching for someone to say, now you're you're part of the 80%? It's you you're actually not going to help me as much I'm looking for the 20% What What are some tips you have? Mark Yeah, first thing Grant is ask them if they do quarterly meetings. If the CPA or the tax preparer for you is not meeting with you quarterly, they are not forward looking, they're likely going to say hey, let's meet in might not even be before the end of the year, it might be in like January or February to say tell me what you have, is that all the expenses you have? Are you sure because we need to file. But if they even if they're only meeting once per year, at the end of the year, and just trying to figure out, okay, we need to shove a little bit more in the qualified account. And maybe you can have any more, you know, maybe you can buy some more capital equipment. That is not, you know, I'm not saying that's well, let me just say this, that is not the accounting, that that someone needs as they're climbing, the echelon of income, if they're still using that CPA, when they're climbing that income bracket, they are going to be paying retail taxes. When everybody else that has reached that level. When they get to a certain level of of success. They figured out how to pay wholesale sales, no different. There's no different there's a retail price, and there's a wholesale price and the people that pay the wholesale price go above and beyond and look for the coupons where the coupons they're in the tax code. Awesome. The IRS is not saying I'm giving out all day. Yeah, they're not putting a flyer out your mail.  Grant Wait a minute, are you saying there's no mobile app that they could the tax code mobile app with coupons? I think we should build that. That's a great I should yeah, that's my app.  Mark Together Grant. Grant  Let's go build that. I bet there's a market for that. Mark Okay. I would bet there is as well. Yeah, absolutely. Grant I love that idea. Okay, so there's something I saw on your profile that intrigued me many things intrigued me and one of those. I just gotta read this off here. Because when I read it, I was like, Where do I sign? It? It was it was learn how to get the IRS to fund a portion of your retirement 100% tax free. So like, right next to the mobile app. We just talked about developing there's this also. Okay, tell me all right. We want the IRS to fund a portion of our retirement 100% tax free any secrets you can share on that? Mark You know, there's a I'll, I won't give everything away, right? I want people to want to ask me some questions. But I will say this, there's a few different ways to do it. One of the ways is when you find these tax savings, right, when there's that when you're applying the code that's going to basically give you a deduction, right? Because there's codes I can actually, you know, there's a little golf tournament. Here's a nice secret out there. A lot of people know about this, but let's a lot of people don't as well, golf tournament out there. It's been going on for years and years and years. And the winner gets a green jacket. I'm not sure if you're a golfing fan. Oh, sure. Or Yep. If you know, who gets the green jacket every year, you know, there there is somewhere in Georgia and a little town. That's right. And it's a very prestigious golf tournament. So about 60 years ago, the higher net worth individuals that lived around that, that golf course realize that they could rent their homes to the corporation's coming in that were or anyone coming in that wanted to, you know, watch the tournament, and they could rent their homes for significantly more than they would you know, what would cost them to go have a little nice vacation? So in that process, they said, Well, these are our personal residence. This is not a this is not an income property. So they lobby to the their friends and Senate and said, Hey, we're not renting our this is not an income producing property. But we're not getting any deductions on this. We're not getting any tax benefits. But so can we have some benefits. So they basically the Congress, and there's two tax codes that validate this, you can rent your personal residence for up to a certain number of days per year. And the dollars that you receive for that rent is tax free, as long as you don't rent your home for over a certain number of days. Now, here's where it gets fun grant, because some people don't want strangers in their house. Right? So even if they could rent their house for significantly more than they could go do something else. They don't want to Airbnb their house, what if they're a business owner? Well, can they rent their business? Can they rent their house to their business for business purposes? Using the same tax code? Absolutely. Now, we just have to determine what the value is, and put it in your bot and your minutes and ultimately integrate it and know, now when you create those deductions, right? Because if you're renting your house, from your business, and you create a deduction at the business level, but didn't cost you anything at the personal level, or the business level, maybe there's a, you know, maybe the meeting you did was whatever, you know, lunch, well, you just created deductions with no cost, no cost. Now that tax savings now the tax savings is getting to you from that's where you're funding your retirement tax free from the IRS because those that those dollars are non taxable. Now, if you get them into a Roth, if you get them into a cash value life insurance policy, you're never paying the taxes again. So now you're looking at never even paying taxes again after you didn't pay the taxes on it to begin with. Okay, that was one little nugget. Grant That's you know, would you just drop the mic on that? You're not holding in my car? Yeah, yeah. Mark No, but if I dropped it, it might fall off my desk. Grant I might, I might fall off that. Yeah, I tell you, Mark, that that was awesome. Just following that flow of what you articulated. I think that's a beautiful thing. Okay. So let me ask you this. With all that you're doing, and with all that people are coming to you for? How do they engage with you? How do they dial it? How they interact with you? How do they how do they say I'm a good candidate for you? Where do they go to find out more about you? Mark Great question, I always just invite him to my website, Grant, I just PeakProfitSolutions.com. And as you know, peak as in a mountain peak, P-E-A-K Profit Solutions, plural PeakProfitSolutions.com. On that you can have, there's places where you can go get case studies, I click here for some case studies, there's a link that says, hey, book an appointment with me, and 20 It literally only takes me 20 minutes to have a conversation with someone to determine if they're a good candidate for any one of the dozen or more solutions that I can bring to the table. That's really the best thing though, the most important thing to know is, you know, just take a little bit of time, even if it's 20 minute phone call, you don't have to come super prepared. They don't have to come with their entire balance and their their previous tax years and their p&l Like just come and say, This is what I how I'm structured. This is how much I'm making every year. I'm writing a lot, you know, just all they need to do is do that. And I and from that point forward, I can determine right out of the gate if they're a good candidate for the architecture to start. Grnant The tax architect. Mark Architect, tax savings, architecture, tax savings architect good building. That's right. Grant That is awesome. That is awesome. Excellent. Mark, thank you for your time today. Any final comments? Mark No, I just appreciate being on the show. Appreciate your, your hosting style, and of course, all the interviews that you've done on your channel so are fun to listen to. So thank you. Grant I'm having fun. It's a fascinating world, right? There's just so many great people doing so many cool things. So when your profile came across me as like, Oh, I gotta talk this guy. He's got some secrets about reducing taxes. Okay, yeah, he's in. So thanks for doing that mark for thanks for taking the time everyone. Thanks for joining another episode of Financial investing radio. And until next time, go check out go check out Peak Profits Solutions. Thank you for joining Grant on Financial Investing Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback.  

In this episode, I have the opportunity to sit down with someone that has digested and synthesize the tax code and brings the tax saving secrets to you. Grant  Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Financial investing radio. So today I have with me someone that just barely met. But as I review, his biography, his profile what he does, it is in one of those places, which I admittedly know so little about, I lean on so many people for help in this area. Now I get to meet with and speak with an expert in the area of how to take it to the tax man. All right, let me welcome Mark Meyers here today. Welcome, Mark. Mark Hey, thank you so much, Grant, I'm excited to chat with you about this. And, you know, hey, if you can keep more of that hard earned profit. It definitely helps in the wealth accumulation realm for sure. So this exciting topic. Grant Boy, for sure. You know, when when you think about taxes and talking about taxes, you know, it's probably right up there with flossing your teeth, right? It's like, oh, everyone should be doing it. Right. But oh, my gosh, do I really want to talk about taxes. Turns out, as I was reviewing some things that you have done to help people, individuals, businesses, really reduce their tax burden. And putting that money, like you said, or leaving that money back in your pocket, suddenly, it becomes really an interesting topic to address. But before you give away any secrets, let's back up. How is it that you got interested in taxes? What is it that even got you to this point?  Mark Grant, you know, it's an interesting story, because I started out my career at the University of Florida, with as an undergrad in exercise physiology, get my Master's in sports management, moved to New York City to manage health clubs, and then moved to Los Angeles to edit, manage more health clubs. And in the process of doing that, I helped a really large high end brand, open a number of different locations. And in that they were they went from a 10 clubs to over 100 clubs. And in that process, I really learn to be an owner operator, every club that I would open or go chant, you know, help return around, I'd have to really be mindful of driving revenue, minimizing expenses, putting the operations in in place, you know, the best practices in place to get the best output. And of course, I was compensated on EBIT margin, so I'd get a base, and then I'd have cash bonus based off of how profitable is the company process, I realized, you know, hey, I might be running health clubs. And I might have a background here, but I have a knack for running companies. And I know there's a lot more opportunity in the financial markets in the financial world, particular to consulting with business owners, that's when I said the light came on after, you know, working well over a decade, you know, 365 days a year, and these clubs are open from, you know, five in the morning till 12 At night, you know, they never got hit. So I'm like, Okay, I'm going to shift gears here and do something fun that can ultimately help other people, and also helped me kind of increase my income opportunity here. Get out of this glass ceiling environment. Grant Yeah. So So you are living this life of just constantly being on right, the lights on, right, because your clubs are on right, the gyms are open, and so you're trying to optimize as much as possible. Talk about school, hard knocks, right? I mean, you learn the lessons along the way, for sure, right? Oh, for sure. Mark I mean, it's one of those things where you know, every penny counts, particularly in that industry. And of course, I worked in a higher end layer. So it was, you know, we're looking at 200 plus dollar a month memberships with spa packages and training and Pilates and Yoga. But at the same time, you still have to be mindful of your margins. That's really, really important. So it was it was a nice experience. It was a nice way to understand how to really learn the p&l, learn the people, learn the drivers, and then of course transitioned over to say, hey, I can speak to business owners, I could speak to those that are looking to, you know, increase efficiency. And there's a lot of opportunity there. So that's kind of where this all kicked off. Grant So in the course of doing this, you start uncovering, I'm assuming, oh, here's a little secret about how I could save a little more money or take some out of the taxes. I imagine over a period of time you started to build up this cadre, or list of or selection of wait, here's some best practices of actually taking the tax back from the tax man and leaving it with you. There's it was it was it that it was a 10 year journey that you invested in to build up that knowledge base? It sounds like, Right? Mark Absolutely. And you know, you really said something important, and it was very accurate in that my, my getting to where I am now didn't happen overnight. In particularly shifting gears, I'd say the last seven or eight years is when I really really shifted gears, to not just talk about can I just not consult with with individuals on their businesses and help them with maybe some financial planning, really shifting gears and saying, hey, there are a lot of different opportunities to reduce tax. And I just went out there. And just like in the past, in my first few years of this, I was kind of more of an advanced insurance specialist and consultant to business owners, and I could go out there and work with any insurance carrier. And I could basically look and say, you know, this is the carrier need for this solution. And this is why this is I realized I could do the same thing in the tax realm, there's just not 100 different, you know, tax savings providers out there, there's probably about 20 to 30 that you want to do business with. And these are small groups are generally fairly boutique, they're not huge. And they offer something very, very specific. And it's somewhere in the 70,000 pages of tax code. And they just so happened to analyze it, apply it. And basically, that's their gig key. So I have a lot of different tools in the tool chest, I have a lot of different relationships with groups that do these things. And I break when I do consulting work, I just put all the pieces of the puzzle together. And it's really cool. I'm not a CPA, I'm not a tax attorney, I'm really literally I call myself a tax savings architect, I've just developed this ability to consult, oh, that's a great title.  Grant Wait, say that title again, you're a what? Mark A tax savings architect, Oh, I love it together, I just build I build the plan. And then I bring the vendors in, right, the right team on the on the coach, I'm bringing the right team in to put the right plays in at the right times. And then the implementation goes, you know, off, you know, from there. Grant So, what I want to highlight is you have developed this by doing it again and again, maybe making a mistake fixing it again and again, oh, learning more again, and you put in that 10 year effort to gather and build that experience and that that's the value platform that you bring to the people so they're not off doing 10 years of learning the lessons, right? Mark Oh, for sure. Grant, I'll tell you, these are types of things that, you know, people don't have time, even the best CPAs right. And you can think about any CPA out there, you've got out of every 10 You're gonna have to my experience, you're gonna have two out of 10 that have developed their practice in a way that they'll have forward looking have a forward looking approach. And they'll have more bandwidth than just, you know, recording and tracking and filing right most of them record track and file. Do you have any more expenses? Are you sure you don't have any more you know, you can buy this capital, we get section 179 it so why don't you spend $1 to save 35 cents? No, that's, that's really a good idea if you need what you're buying. But two out of 10 are forward looking right? They're actually stepping outside of the box and seeing what's out there. They're 70,000 pages of tax code. So this is where the key is at 10 years, you're talking about their 70,000 pages of tax code you if you're going to win a championship. If you're a team think about a just a collegiate team or a professional team. They have multiple coaches. They have strength coaches, they have quarterback coaches that are talking about football they have offensive line coaches defensive line coaches look at businesses the reason why Amazon and Microsoft and General Electric and Nike and DuPont the reason why they pay significantly lower taxes than the average individual is because they have teams they have accounting teams, more than one CPA, they have attorneys they have business strategists. So this is what I really do is I bring that team approach to the small to medium size business owner or you don't even have to be a small to medium sized business owner to have tax savings you can be a high income earning executive. Oh really how to Matt navigate the tax code. There's things that you can do to reduce your tax. Grant Okay, so that gets the the question I was gonna ask around who is this for? Definitely the business owner. But if you're, if you're in the High Net Worth areas and individual this is applicable to you as well. Mark Absolutely. There's three there's three He kind of avenues, business owners. And the reason why is business owners are great to work with because they have control over their income, they can determine how much salary they take, they can determine how they take their income. It really they have the control. The other side would be high income earning executives that maybe don't have as much control but they're they're looking at, you know, half a million dollars or more of taxable income per year. I can work with business owners with much less I mean, they can have as low as 250 or so in taxable income, okay, because the more there's more flexibility. And then the Third Avenue is people that are selling highly appreciated assets, once a lot of crypto traders or somebody that had a stock portfolio, but they didn't have this huge blend, it wasn't like a qualified account, it was just a brokerage account, they had positions that just blew up, and now they're sitting on, you know, $5 million with Apple stock. Well, if they pull the trigger on it, they're looking at, you know, if they're California 37%. Grant Yeah, goodbye to that.  Mark Yeah, well, I can help them, you know, really take care of that as well either eliminated or different depending on what solutions we're looking at. Grant So, okay, what about what about on the, on the inheritance side, same same sort of story. In other words, let's say you inherited something is you have techniques that helps with that group as well. Mark Well, on the inheritance side, I don't spend a lot of time there, because generally, that should be done prior to and a lot of the work that I do actually blends in with maybe some estate planning attorneys, because you really want to solve that equation prior to the need. If you don't, then unfortunately, if you're above the exemption rate, the estate tax man will come take, you know, 60% of that from your kids, right? Not from you, but from your kids and your loved ones. And they might even have to be, they might have to sell appreciate it like this is a real estate high net worth real estate holder, they're selling off real estate just to pay the estate tax, which is never a good thing. So we when it comes to the gifting and the you know passing on to heirs, we generally integrate that into our planning, but we're doing it prior to so that way the kids and their loved ones can breathe, you know, sleep well at night and not have to worry too much about worrying too much about about that sort of thing.  Grant So so let's take the scenario of you're a small and medium business owner and you've got the you've got this tax burden on you. Do you need to be doing the work ahead of time? Is this a whole year of effort that the business owner goes through? Whether they have to be intentional throughout the whole year? Or do your practices, techniques allow you to just sort of come in at the last minute and who 30% off? Thanks, Mark. Have a great year? Mark Yes, well, I would say a little bit of all apply. But proactive forward looking is always the best. The best approach is a forward looking approach. Now I can do hindsight foresight, and then give you insight. On the hindsight we're always looking at, well, what did you miss that you can go back and pick up a lot of people don't realize, particularly in business, there's tax credits that they can pick up in previous years. Currently, right now for the next few months. There's the employee retention tax credit. So there's there's r&d credits, there's there's trends for investing in renewable energy, they can go backwards and pick up previous taxes paid, it's always look at the hindsight, what can we pick up that you paid in the last year or two or three? Ford, Ford sight? Or, you know, foresight is okay, what can we do to change the trajectory of your current income? Because right now, the way we're always looking at pathways, how are you taking your income, because what we need to do is look at creating new pathways. And if you have different pathways to receive the same income, there might be a different taxable situation. But those pathways aren't going to save you. You can't save any money until the pathway is created. So the foresight we're always looking at, well, this is how much money you're taking in now. And you've taken it in one pathway, or maybe two pathways, and this is your taxable outcome. But what if we created two additional pathways? Now you have four pathways, and we're not talking about deferring it. And putting into qualified accounts. I'm not talking about any of that, obviously, that's been going on for years and years and years is there's arguments as to whether or not that really is saving them anything. At the end of the day, we're talking about really taking tax law and the tax code by the horns and saying, hey, the tax code says I can do this, therefore, this money is not taxable. Right. So now that you have this money in your hand, that's not taxable you and you've lowered your adjusted gross income because you took a portion of your money that the tax code says is not taxable because of the way that you've structured it structure that we've just just decreased your taxes and you're like liquid, like the money that you save is liquid, it's in your pocket. If you want to use that for investing you can if you want to use that to recapitalize your business you can if you want to use that to go to Vegas, you can. Grant Yeah, your choice and that's the whole point. It's your choice rather than Uncle Sam. So the strategy seems to be tell me if I've got this right. It's don't fire your CPA because you're going to keep The CPA as a business owner, because you're not the CPA, but what you are bringing is a way to be more productive as you work with the CPA, right, you're bringing in additional knowledge or insight that will then be brought into those conversations with the CPA currently have is that close 100%. Mark And what I always like to tell business owners, and right off the bat is, you know, let's, let's not put your CPA on defense mode, right? They, there's no CPA out there that has the bandwidth, to have this time to vet and research all these different ways to save taxes. I mean, they know a lot, but because they may not know everything that I'll bring to the table, that's okay. So the first thing is make sure that they're not on the defense. And also, I'm not looking to take over any bookkeeping, your tax filing or tax prep, I'm just looking to add additional layers that usually increase revenue for the accounting because it usually does increase their need to maybe have an additional filing each year, or maybe some additional bookkeeping to take to oversee these new solutions.  Grant So it's all day for you as a partner in it, your they don't see you as Oh, I'm here taking business from 100%. Mark Most of the time, when I'm speaking to the right CPAs. And I'm introduced to them by the taxpayer, I get introduced to three or four new clients that the CPA has, because they're like, this is great, I have you know, four or five, or depending on the CPA, they might work with a higher net worth individuals, they might have more, but I like those relationships, because they open the door for more opportunity. Now, I will say there's going to be out of that regard every 10 CPAs, there's two that are for thinking. And there's eight that are really just doing the numbers really doing the prep the recording and filing and prepping. Sometimes the eight, there could be some resistance there. And it's it's, it's only because they don't know what they don't know. So in those situations, hey, I always say it's up to you. It's up to the taxpayer, that you're the decision maker, the CPA is not the decision maker. And I have you know, I never want to pry someone away from their CPA, but if they really liked what I'm talking about under CPAs, just very resistant, doing anything that they're outside of their norm was to have dozens and dozens of CPAs all over the nation that would be very happy to interview you. Or you could interview them because they know the solutions and their clients use them. Grant Yeah, I was gonna ask you. So how does you know? What's some guidance for our listeners on? How do you pick? How do you find those two out of the 10? CPAs? Right? What are some of the key things that someone's looking for? to vet your CPA or while you're searching for someone to say, now you're you're part of the 80%? It's you you're actually not going to help me as much I'm looking for the 20% What What are some tips you have? Mark Yeah, first thing Grant is ask them if they do quarterly meetings. If the CPA or the tax preparer for you is not meeting with you quarterly, they are not forward looking, they're likely going to say hey, let's meet in might not even be before the end of the year, it might be in like January or February to say tell me what you have, is that all the expenses you have? Are you sure because we need to file. But if they even if they're only meeting once per year, at the end of the year, and just trying to figure out, okay, we need to shove a little bit more in the qualified account. And maybe you can have any more, you know, maybe you can buy some more capital equipment. That is not, you know, I'm not saying that's well, let me just say this, that is not the accounting, that that someone needs as they're climbing, the echelon of income, if they're still using that CPA, when they're climbing that income bracket, they are going to be paying retail taxes. When everybody else that has reached that level. When they get to a certain level of of success. They figured out how to pay wholesale sales, no different. There's no different there's a retail price, and there's a wholesale price and the people that pay the wholesale price go above and beyond and look for the coupons where the coupons they're in the tax code. Awesome. The IRS is not saying I'm giving out all day. Yeah, they're not putting a flyer out your mail.  Grant Wait a minute, are you saying there's no mobile app that they could the tax code mobile app with coupons? I think we should build that. That's a great I should yeah, that's my app.  Mark Together Grant. Grant  Let's go build that. I bet there's a market for that. Mark Okay. I would bet there is as well. Yeah, absolutely. Grant I love that idea. Okay, so there's something I saw on your profile that intrigued me many things intrigued me and one of those. I just gotta read this off here. Because when I read it, I was like, Where do I sign? It? It was it was learn how to get the IRS to fund a portion of your retirement 100% tax free. So like, right next to the mobile app. We just talked about developing there's this also. Okay, tell me all right. We want the IRS to fund a portion of our retirement 100% tax free any secrets you can share on that? Mark You know, there's a I'll, I won't give everything away, right? I want people to want to ask me some questions. But I will say this, there's a few different ways to do it. One of the ways is when you find these tax savings, right, when there's that when you're applying the code that's going to basically give you a deduction, right? Because there's codes I can actually, you know, there's a little golf tournament. Here's a nice secret out there. A lot of people know about this, but let's a lot of people don't as well, golf tournament out there. It's been going on for years and years and years. And the winner gets a green jacket. I'm not sure if you're a golfing fan. Oh, sure. Or Yep. If you know, who gets the green jacket every year, you know, there there is somewhere in Georgia and a little town. That's right. And it's a very prestigious golf tournament. So about 60 years ago, the higher net worth individuals that lived around that, that golf course realize that they could rent their homes to the corporation's coming in that were or anyone coming in that wanted to, you know, watch the tournament, and they could rent their homes for significantly more than they would you know, what would cost them to go have a little nice vacation? So in that process, they said, Well, these are our personal residence. This is not a this is not an income property. So they lobby to the their friends and Senate and said, Hey, we're not renting our this is not an income producing property. But we're not getting any deductions on this. We're not getting any tax benefits. But so can we have some benefits. So they basically the Congress, and there's two tax codes that validate this, you can rent your personal residence for up to a certain number of days per year. And the dollars that you receive for that rent is tax free, as long as you don't rent your home for over a certain number of days. Now, here's where it gets fun grant, because some people don't want strangers in their house. Right? So even if they could rent their house for significantly more than they could go do something else. They don't want to Airbnb their house, what if they're a business owner? Well, can they rent their business? Can they rent their house to their business for business purposes? Using the same tax code? Absolutely. Now, we just have to determine what the value is, and put it in your bot and your minutes and ultimately integrate it and know, now when you create those deductions, right? Because if you're renting your house, from your business, and you create a deduction at the business level, but didn't cost you anything at the personal level, or the business level, maybe there's a, you know, maybe the meeting you did was whatever, you know, lunch, well, you just created deductions with no cost, no cost. Now that tax savings now the tax savings is getting to you from that's where you're funding your retirement tax free from the IRS because those that those dollars are non taxable. Now, if you get them into a Roth, if you get them into a cash value life insurance policy, you're never paying the taxes again. So now you're looking at never even paying taxes again after you didn't pay the taxes on it to begin with. Okay, that was one little nugget. Grant That's you know, would you just drop the mic on that? You're not holding in my car? Yeah, yeah. Mark No, but if I dropped it, it might fall off my desk. Grant I might, I might fall off that. Yeah, I tell you, Mark, that that was awesome. Just following that flow of what you articulated. I think that's a beautiful thing. Okay. So let me ask you this. With all that you're doing, and with all that people are coming to you for? How do they engage with you? How do they dial it? How they interact with you? How do they how do they say I'm a good candidate for you? Where do they go to find out more about you? Mark Great question, I always just invite him to my website, Grant, I just PeakProfitSolutions.com. And as you know, peak as in a mountain peak, P-E-A-K Profit Solutions, plural PeakProfitSolutions.com. On that you can have, there's places where you can go get case studies, I click here for some case studies, there's a link that says, hey, book an appointment with me, and 20 It literally only takes me 20 minutes to have a conversation with someone to determine if they're a good candidate for any one of the dozen or more solutions that I can bring to the table. That's really the best thing though, the most important thing to know is, you know, just take a little bit of time, even if it's 20 minute phone call, you don't have to come super prepared. They don't have to come with their entire balance and their their previous tax years and their p&l Like just come and say, This is what I how I'm structured. This is how much I'm making every year. I'm writing a lot, you know, just all they need to do is do that. And I and from that point forward, I can determine right out of the gate if they're a good candidate for the architecture to start. Grnant The tax architect. Mark Architect, tax savings, architecture, tax savings architect good building. That's right. Grant That is awesome. That is awesome. Excellent. Mark, thank you for your time today. Any final comments? Mark No, I just appreciate being on the show. Appreciate your, your hosting style, and of course, all the interviews that you've done on your channel so are fun to listen to. So thank you. Grant I'm having fun. It's a fascinating world, right? There's just so many great people doing so many cool things. So when your profile came across me as like, Oh, I gotta talk this guy. He's got some secrets about reducing taxes. Okay, yeah, he's in. So thanks for doing that mark for thanks for taking the time everyone. Thanks for joining another episode of Financial Investing Radio. And until next time, go check out go check out Peak Profits Solutions. Thank you for joining Grant on Financial Investing Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback.  

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E24 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science Based Paganism. I'm your host Mark. Yucca: And I'm the other one Yucca. Mark: Today, we are going to talk about something that is very central to pagan practice of all kinds. And that is trance. Yucca: Right. And this is something that we see in paganism. We see it in a lot of other religions as well. It seems to be a very like, a very important experience for. being in that space, having those transformations, when really important things are happening, there's often a trance state. Mark: Right. The attainment of altered states of consciousness is often something that is viewed as holy. In various religions or is viewed certainly as transformative or divinely inspired or or divinely provoked. There are a lot of different frameworks for understanding what this is, but there are so many examples all over the world of people using various different kinds of techniques in order to enter a trans state. Yucca: Right. And since we are non theist, we're not coming at it from a, from the divine perspective. So we're looking at it, we'll look at it from a more neuroscience perspective and the usefulness of it as well, because it really is very useful. Mark: right, right. The, and I guess the, where we need to start with that then is to talk about what it is. Yucca: Right, Mark: trance is kind of a. It's a general term that isn't used by many other religions, other than paganism to describe a particular neurological state. And you can get to that neurological state through a lot of different approaches. Repetitive motion is one of them listening to very dreamy kinds of music with beautiful harmonies in it can take you into that state. Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: Um, and it's the state that's characterized by being very much in the present. So you're not thinking about. Your list of things to do or about worrying about the future or any of that? You're very much in the present moment. Also with a very kind of emotional openness and a sense of focus, a sense of of experience that you're having. Yucca: Right. And, and I, a word that does get used in, in the common cultures, often in the zone, right. When someone talks about being in the Mark: That's exactly right. Another term that is used by people like sports, psychologists is flow. Yucca: zone, that's actually a trance state, right? Mark: When you, when you are in a flow state, you're very creative, you have access to your subconscious You're not distracted by thoughts of other times or other obligations. You're really in a, kind of a peak optimal state for for working with your own creativity and your own psychology. Right. Yucca: right. Mark: So there are other, oh, Yucca: Oh, I was gonna say, this is something that I see. Young children do very, very naturally. They get into a state like that. And it's something that later on, we don't tend to practice as much. We kind of train ourselves out of it, but I think that there's, there's something very instinctual about it, that humans. That we, we gravitate towards that. We really do that when given the opportunity to Mark: There's something about trans that is play. Yucca: mm-hmm Mark: Because it's creative. In, in many cases now, in, in the case of some religious traditions, trans states are very narrowly defined as only being allowed to be particular kinds of experiences. And so there isn't as much creativity associated with them. But we'll be talking later on about how to induce these trans states. But when you think about, Hildegard Von, BGAN having her, Amazing sort of visions of the Virgin, Mary and all these angels and saints and all that kind of stuff. That's very much a trans state. Now the odds are good that in her case she was probably epileptic and One of the, one of the characteristics of epilepsy is that people can go into a, kind of a phasic trans state, which can lead them into a very altered reality. Right? Oh disconnected from the current present physical circumstances and often unable to. Yucca: Hm. Mark: There are there are often when people go into a trans state, they, they, they are often in kind of a pre-verbal state and they really aren't able to summon language to address what they're experiencing or to communicate that with others. That can be a problem sometimes. I've, I've. There have been people that I've worked with at pagan festivals who have gone kind of way, way out there and are having a hard time taking care of themselves. They're kind of stumbling around the fire, not cuz they're drunk, but because they're really, really entranced. And there's a certain amount of danger associated with that. And so when I've tried to sort of steer them a little further away from the fire and. Check in with them and see how they're doing. In some cases, they simply can't summon words because those parts of their brain aren't what is Yucca: that's not the active part at the moment. Mark: That's right. It's not at the forefront. So let's, let's think for a minute about some examples of trans states that are used in various sorts of religious contexts throughout the world. And I should say that it's not just religious contexts that have trance or flow or the zone artists know this space really well. Yucca: yeah. Artists and writers Mark: As a writer. I know when I'm writing good stuff, I can feel that it's, it's just pouring out of me and I'm just typing as fast as I can to try to capture it. Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: Um, and it's, it should be said, this is a pleasurable experience. Trans feels good. It's associated with high levels of serotonin in the brain, and it's a, so it's a state that people tend to want to gravitate towards many people who are deeply religious, do their religious practices in order to reach that pleasurable trans state, which they may interpret as communing. Deities or with the entirety of the universe? All of those kinds of feelings. Yucca: So one of the religions that immediately pops into my mind when we talk about that is the SoFi, Mark: Mm-hmm Yucca: right? That's a that's probably the, the picture most people think of when they think of the SoFi is the whirling Dees. Right. And that they're doing that and getting into this shared trance state. Mark: Sure exactly. It's this very slow, steady, repetitive movement, which of course also kind of spins their their middle ear. So that there's this. This potential for dizziness, but it's sort of a managed dizziness. It's a learned technique that they use to take themselves into this very out there kind of space of communing with, with what they believe is their God. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And what's interesting to me is that this is such a beautiful and impactful kind of experience that people will actually pay money to go and watch Sufi spinning in place. Right? Yucca: Oh, I hadn't heard about that. There's a pretty big community in, in my area, but I hadn't heard of people go paying to watch that happen. Mark: there's at least one touring troop. Of of dervishes. Yeah, I I've seen them advertised. I haven't gone to actually see them do it, but I've, I've seen them advertised. In other cases we can think about the sort of intense altered states that come with. And of course, once again, in a pre-verbal kind of sense with people who fall into speaking in tongues or who who ki kind of lose control of their bodies and fall down through this incredibly intense trans like, experience happening in their brain. And. I mean, I'm, I'm not telling any secrets out of school here. We, we here don't believe in divinity. We don't believe in, in gods. And so when we look at that phenomenon, we don't see it as the Christian God reaching down and touching these people. And they're having this, sort of Transy spasmodic experience. We're seeing it as a, a psychological and neurological phenomenon. Yucca: Yeah. Which does not make it less valuable, just because we might have some understanding on what, how it's happening, why it's happening. It that's not less. To use the word magical, right. It's not magic in a Harry Potter sense, but it's magical in a, in a, in a meaningful wow, amazing kind of way. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. Because just because we understand how something works does not, as you say, make anything less wonderful about it. So we can understand, for example, that, that. The experience of love is very high levels of serotonin and oxytocin, right? Your body is like singing with these neurotransmitters, that connote connection and affect and focus and a bunch of other things too, like not being hungry and having a hard time sleeping and a lot of other things that go with that. Now does that mean that love isn't real? Well, of course not, of course not, but that's what, when you're, when you're experiencing being in love, that is what is happening in your brain. Yucca: Right. Or if we're watching the sunrise. Mark: Mm-hmm Yucca: Understanding in fact that in some ways to me makes it even more inspiring is to start to see those deeper connections to wow. Right. And when we start thinking about the neurotransmitters, thinking about, how many generations. How many millions of generations of mammals were there for using those same neurotransmitters. And then we were using them before we were even mammals for different purposes and all of that. Mark: Right. And, asking the big questions, like why did we evolve to have these states? I mean, we can understand why we have love because it draws us together for reproduction for caring in, in survival and caring for our offspring. Right. But. Why a sunrise, why a sunset, why the beauty of leaves blowing in wind? Why the Aurora Balis, why the shapes of clouds moving in the sky? All of these are things that can really inspire us and move us with the sheer beauty of the universe. And you have to ask the question, why did we evolve the capacity to feel that. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: It's a great question. I don't have any idea of the answer, but it's a super question, Yucca: right. Yeah. That's, that's a question to work on. Mark: But the good news is we do have this built into ourselves. We have this capacity for trance, this capacity to be transported by the moment and brought into a state of focus and clarity and a feeling of belonging and connection, all of those things. And one of the things that we as pagans are about is crafting the skills. Learning the skills to be able to create that state at will. And, and that is something that's kind of unique about the, the broad pagan umbrella. There are, there are other religious traditions which teach you to go into deep trans states. Zen Buddhism, for example, sitting Zen, looking at a blank wall. But they're very constrained in how they use that experience and how, the rituals around it are very, very strict, right? Whereas as pagans, we create a lot of our own rituals and so we can use this trans state for a lot of different purposes. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So why don't we talk a little bit about why then you would want to go into this, this trance state. Yucca: Yeah. the first thing is, at least from my perspective is you have a lot less in the way. When you're going into a state like this, you're setting aside the, the worrying about the rent for next week and the, this and the, that. And you're, you're kind of going to this, this deeper level where you're dealing with the, with the, your raw emotions and beliefs and feelings. Mark: Mm-hmm. mm-hmm . Yeah. And what's cool about that in my experience is that trans is an opportunity to kind of get in under the hood and tinker with those things. Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: We know now from research that our memories are not recordings. They are retellings of stories and they get edited and embellished and pieces get dropped all the time in the stories that we tell ourselves about our lives. So we have the capacity when in this very open emotionally malleable state to get in there and actually change some core assumptions that we have change our story or our, our uh, Yucca: or Mark: Conclusion our beliefs about an event that happened to us in our lives, right. That can help to bring us closure. It can help to bring us healing. It can help to instill greater self-esteem. It can help to bring us more confidence as we pursue our goals. It can do lots of really cool things like that. All in this kind of glowing present. Very pleasurable. Experience. So it's, it's, it's a way of doing it. It's an opportunity to do things that are good for you while also having an experience that isn't an ordeal that instead is something powerful and moving and and happy. Yucca: And it can be the real heart of a ritual. Right? A lot of times when we're setting up a ritual, a lot of the things that we're doing are to help get us to that state. Mark: yes. Yes. In the, in the atheopagan. Recommended ritual structure that I put in my Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: for example, the whole point of that is induction into a trans state doing stuff while in that trans state and then transitioning back out of it and back into a normal sense of reality. Right. So the arrival phase, you have things like grounding and you have things like sensory stimulation that brings you into the present moment in your body. And you have things like invocation of safety and security, so that you feel okay about opening yourself to the experience stuff like that. And then In the qualities phase, you invoke the, the various characteristics and emotions that you would like to be with you during these things, so that you feel like you have allies and ingredients to work with. And then in the main body of the ritual, which is the, the working or the deep play, that's when you're in the trance and now you can do this transformative work, right. Yucca: yeah, Mark: And then the other two phases are coming out the other side. So that, that it really is about a technology of trance ritual is, is in my experience, a technology of trance. Yucca: right. So why don't we talk a little bit about some of the hows, right? We've been talking a lot about the why. Mark: Okay. Okay. That sounds great.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: there are so many ways to get there and the, there can vary a lot depending on which one you use. I don't want to, in any way, imply to people that all trans states are the same. They, they aren't, they aren't The kind of trans state that you have from dancing to incredibly rhythmic drumming, for example, or, electronic dance music, stuff like that is not the same thing as the kind of meditative trans state that you can enter while sitting quietly, smelling the scent of a little incense, calming yourself and opening yourself in that more gentle kind of way. But they're both trans states and they both present opportunities for growth and learning and, and joy. Yucca: Yeah. Well, Mark: So, oh, go Yucca: To share a technique for going into that kind of quiet sort of meditative trance state. One thing that, if you've never played with this before, that you can do is find whatever the situation is. You, you it could be quietly inside or sitting out, looking at the stars or the sunset or whatever, but sitting down, creating your space. And then, calm your breath, do your grounding and stare at something. Stare very, very intently at it. And then start to relax your eyes. And if you can blur your vision a little bit, just go ahead and blur that and bring it back. And just bring, feel like you're bringing that blurred relaxation back into your, back through your eyes, into your head and down through your body as you're staring and letting that focus shift, right. Just playing with that focus in your eyes and that seeing that as your body. And for me practicing that, that's something that can get me into a trance state very, very quickly. Is that staring. Relaxation. Mark: great. Yeah, that's, that's a very effective way. One thing to be aware of when you do that kind of a practice, is that the thing that you're looking at may appear to disappear? Because of the holes in your retina, where your optic nerve is detached. When you really calm down your eyes, stop vibrating, back and forth, which is what they do in order to adjust for that hole in your retinas so that they can collect data about what would otherwise be in the hole. Yucca: right. And all of that, you're getting your depth perception. You're getting all kinds of information from those tiny, tiny little movements. Yeah. Mark: Right. So, if you are calming yourself and staring at something and it disappears, don't worry about it. That's there's there, there are reasons for that. And it's okay. Yucca: And if there's a little bit of color difference that happens too. Like you see some spots where like the color is a little bit like pink or, or blue or things like that. That's again, that's totally normal. Yeah. Mark: Right. We mentioned drumming drumming is either, either doing the drumming yourself or being in a place where there is, powerful drumming or very, very simple, steady heartbeat, kind of drumming, which can also be very transi in its own way. Those are, those are technologies that are as old as humanity. They probably go back to pre-human, predecessors.  Yucca: And the rush of water. That's another one too, that, that either the trickling for a fountain or the rush of the, the stream or the filling of the, the tub. Mark: mm-hmm, the sound of waves crashing on the ocean. Yucca: Yeah. Right. Mark: Or of wind in trees, all of those kind of white noise, Yucca: I, Mark: somewhat varying, not, not entirely the same all the time. They just, they kind of low you into this very nice sort of dazed, calm, Transy space. Yucca: suspect that they remind us on a very primal level of hearing our mother's blood inside the womb. Mark: That sounds very reasonable to me. Yucca: Right that rushing. Mark: Right. Yeah, that that's cous. The another way is to contemplate something that leaps and dances like fire staring into a fire is a very Transy activity. And it's a way to you can do that with a candle flame. You can do it with a campfire. Don't do it with a wildfire.  Yucca: Well, I, I mean, Mark: I mean, you Yucca: a safe distance yeah. Right. If, if you're, if you're in a safe situation and you're not being called upon to, be part of the effort in that moment yeah. Mark: So that's another and I, I go back to this a lot because I find this very Transy when, when wind is blowing through trees and leaves are kind of shaking and dancing as the bows move in the wind. To me, that's a very Transy experience. I, I just. I, I, I, I start to enter the trans experience, reflecting on Yucca: thinking about it. Mark: just, just thinking about all the math that goes into. All those motions, all those calculations, the, with the pressure and the, the friction coefficients and the angle of the leaves and all the different things, theoretically, you could actually calculate how this tree is going to move based on the wind that comes up against it. But in practical terms, it's impossible, Yucca: Yeah. You'd have to have all those initial conditions. Yeah. Mark: Right. So, I don't know. I wrote a poem once where I talked about wind and trees and mathematics as the language of God, it's, it's this, this in a Einsteinian sense, right? The, the language of the way the universe manifests. Yucca: Yeah. Right. Mark: So that's another, kind of way that we can end. Dancing lights. I mean, there, there are reasons why dance clubs have low light conditions with lots of, dancing around colored lights, Because it puts people into a trans state and in a trans state, they feel less inhibited, more comfortable, more safe and more able to express themselves. So, and it's very pleasurable and that's why they go, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: yeah. Yucca: Also the full moon, right. That's one hanging out and just watching that full moon. Mark: yeah. Watching the line of the Moonlight move across the floor is one that I really enjoy. Yeah. So, dancing, drumming, singing, singing in harmony with other people is a very trans activity, especially if you're doing kinds of music and harmonies Yucca: some of those chance can really get you, get you Mark: Really take you out there. There's a, there's a, a church in Southern France called in a, in a town called where they have a, a specific practice of doing these Catholic chant. Very simple Catholic chance. And people come to sing and have this experience at TA. And there are songbooks that you can buy with these Chan in them, and the chance are simply beautiful wonderful stuff to sing. So you know what your fun, what, what you may be realizing as we talk about this stuff, is that a lot of the things that people. To enjoy themselves or because it puts them in a trans state, Yucca: Right. Mark: right. An awful lot of things that we just like are things that we enjoy because they tend to lead us in that direction. And as pagans, we can then take advantage of that, not just to have a good time, which we are all in favor of. We are in favor of people having a good time. But you can also make some use of that in a ritual context. Yucca: Yeah. And like so many things that we talk about, there's this very. Intuitive instinctual component of it, but the practice can, can really help you to build in making it easier to slip into it, making it more effective. The practice element really is important. Mark: It is and using a focus or an alter, Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: um, is one way to kind of, what's the word I want to use? Kind of fast track that Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: Process, because if, if there's a particular place that you go in your house and a thing that you look at where you are accustomed to going into a trans state before it, whether it's to read to road cards or light candles and incense, and. Meditate or, or to place things for that are seasonal symbols to represent the time of the year or to put pictures of your ancestors so that they'll be remembered, whatever that is. The, the speed with which you will drop into that trans state. Really increases the more you practice in front of that focus. I, I find that when I first started my pagan practice, especially because I have ADHD and so focus and concentration are not exactly my strongest suit. And so my brain would be going all over the place and it was kind of hard to get into that trans state. But now all I have to do is step in front of my focus and light the candles and close my eyes and then open them to this rich display of symbols and items that, that are meaningful to me and tell me stories. Right. Yucca: mm-hmm Mark: I'm there. I'm I'm in the trance state and I'm ready to do some kind of inner work. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So this varies from person to person, there are people for whom like modern dance is the way that they get there, and that's great. It's good to know that about yourself. If you're just starting your practice. And you're just learning about how to work with trance, with yourself, try some different modalities. Think about what has been, what has been enjoyable for you in the past. Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: And maybe for you, it's sitting down with some art supplies and a blank canvas and, going into that zone of creativity you, you can do. Paintings or sculptures or whatever it is that have a symbolic quality that can then help to work with your psychological nature as well. That's another, way that you can approach this. So, for those that are new to the practice, I really encourage people to experiment, try different kinds of stuff. Yucca: Right. And in that ex experimentation, trying different kinds of things and trying the same thing multiple times too, because the very first time we do things, sometimes they're re it's, it's really awkward. Right. Mark: Yes, that critic voice that we talk about erects itself in the back of your head and says, this is stupid and you're making a fool of yourself and yada yada, yada, yada. And after you have some practice with this. That voice doesn't have the kind of power that it used to. It just doesn't, it doesn't impact you the way that it used to. Which is good for you on all kinds of levels, because the self critic is a cruel voice. It's not good for us. And an ability to set that aside and say, no, I'm doing this now. Cuz it's good for me is one opportunity that we have to heal as people. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So what else do we have to talk about on trance? Yucca: It's like so many of the things in paganism that it's, it really is a about experiencing it. We, we find things to talk about on a weekly podcast, but really what we're doing is about. experience, how we feel our relationship and interaction with the world with ourselves. And it's just, it's a, we're a doing religion, right? We're an experience religion. Mark: That's right. That's right. And. Our, our experiences are our life, right? And so enriching those experiences and making them as powerful and as positive for ourselves as possible is central to what our paganism is about. Because we're not. Worshiping gods or making offerings to them, or, spirits or demons or any of that kind of stuff. What we're doing is we're working with our own psychology. And with that, of those that we share rituals with for the betterment of all. Yucca: Right. Mark: And so yes, practice try out different modalities, even little as, as you were saying, Yucca even little kids do this. Little kids will spin and spin and spin and spin and spin until they get dizzy and fall down because they want to be in an altered state. Yucca: Listen to them on their own. They'll they'll we didn't talk about this mantras, right? They'll come up with their own mantras and they'll repeat that over and over and over, I was watching my daughter play just was absolutely fascinated by a tree that had some SAP. And she was out there for, it had to be 30, 40 minutes just in just watching that SAP, looking at that SAP and just, I couldn't quite hear what she was saying, but she. Singing something to herself over and over, just in just super engrossed entranced. Right. And we just, we, when given the opportunity we do that, right. And of course there's different types of personalities. Some peop some personalities will do that more than others. Some personalities are, hyper-focusing like my personality, you were talking about, focus, being something you've cha that. is a little bit more challenging for you. For me, it's kind of the other way. It's hard to get myself to get out of whatever I'm focusing on. There's different personalities, but it's something that is kind of still in all of us to a certain degree. Mark: Yes. Yeah. And when you look at cultures all over the world, you see that the attainment of altered states of consciousness is something that humans just gravitate to everywhere. And whether it means that they have to build these soaring cathedrals with stained glass, windows, and burn incense and candles, and have, flickering low levels of light and, and Gregorian chant. Yucca: and out. Mark: Right. And, have Gregorian Chan singing and leaders telling people what they're supposed to do to get their trans experience, or whether it's as simple as, spinning on one foot, like the Sufi.  Yucca: Or wake up for Dawn Mark: mm-hmm Yucca: and just hang out with the Dawn. Mark: yeah, yeah. Especially at this time of year when the sunsets and sunrises are so long. Yeah. It's really, really a good time. Well, so as with so many things that we talk about here on the podcast, really encourage you to do this stuff. It's a, it's a kind of a strange thing to me. One of the things that I heard a lot when I first entered the pagan community is you have to read these 70 books. Some, some huge stack of you have to read this and this and this and this and this and this and this. And a lot of what I found was in those books was stuff that I don't really subscribe to now. To me, what really made the difference was having the experience, going to the rituals, sharing in those experiences, getting to know the people and then. Yucca: practice. Mark: Daily practice. Absolutely. And then starting to craft the rituals myself and starting to invite others, to join me in doing, rituals that, that felt meaningful and, and impactful. So, that is a very joyous joy. It's a, it's a really enjoyable path to travel. And if you're just getting started, I really encourage you to set forth, find out how you best fall into trance. And maybe you wanna learn to be a really good drummer, it'll, you'll, you'll be a, a super asset to the other pagans around you because you can help them to go into trance. And you will always have a means available of going into trance as long as you have something that you can tap on. Yucca: just be your. Right. If, if you have nothing else, it could be your, your belly or your thighs or or that beautiful drum that you hand painted and whatever it is. Yeah. Mark: I'm, I'm actually buying a drum this week. I'm excited about it. My, my frame drum, big round kind of flat frame drum disappeared at an event the event where I broke my arm back in 2017 and my friend whose truck it flew off the back of apparently has always said that he. Wanted to wanted to buy me another one, but he has never gotten around to it. So now I'm going to go buy it and he's going to pay me back for it. So I'm excited about having a frame drum again. That'll be really cool. Yucca: nice. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Hmm. Well, thank you, mark. This was a lovely and inspiring conversation. We're supposed to get some rain this afternoon and I think maybe I'll sneak away and see if I can trance out with the rain. Mark: Yeah, that sounds wonderful. Especially that wonderful blood warm rain that you get in the Southwest. It's so nice. Yucca: Yeah. yeah, Mark: Yeah. All right. All right. Thanks again so much Yucca. And we'll see you all next week    .

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E23 TRANSCRIPT: ----more----   Yucca: Welcome back to the wonder science-based paganism. I'm one of your hosts, Yucca, and this episode, we're doing something new and kind of exciting that we've never done before. This is our mail bag episode. So we've gotten a lot of responses and questions from all of you on the email. And we wanted to talk about some of these. Mark: Yeah. We love it when we hear from our listeners. It's really helpful for us to know what you're enjoying what you'd like to hear more about all that kind of stuff. And we've, we've recently received some messages with some topics that probably aren't big enough for a whole episode by themselves, but they're important questions and we want to address them. So, yeah, this is, this is the mail bag and I imagine, going forward, we'll probably do more of them as we get more, more messages from listeners. Yucca: Yeah from you. That's right. So let's start, we've got a few from Paul and I've just cut out the, the bits from the emails, right? I'm not gonna read the whole thing, but this first one is if you guys felt like commenting on any pointers, other podcast books, webpages, etcetera, that could help a nube in the beginning of this journey. That'd be great. So I think mark, this is one that might be great for you to take. Cause I think you have a little bit more exposure to some of the, the blog world and all of that. Mark: I mean, I can certainly, there's a, a group of there's a resources and links page on the atheopagan blog@atheopagan.org. And I would recommend checking out a bunch of those links. Natural pagans.com is a is a an aggregation site that pulls writing on naturalistic paganism from a bunch of different sources and puts them together in one place where you can find them. So that's one thing to look at the naturalistic paganism website is another great source for information. Yucca: right, Mark: if you just want kind of overviews on what Ethiopia paganism is and the principles, and just sort of, broad descriptions about, what it is that we're practicing and what our values are. The website of the Ethiopia society is a good one to go to. And that is V AP society.org. Yucca: mm-hmm Mark: Uh, so that once Yucca: AP as in atheopagan mm-hmm Mark: Yes. So it's V AP society.org. That's another place where you can find quite a bit of information and you can legally Orain Yucca: right, of course. Your Mark: Just like at the universal life church, it's perfectly legal. You can perform weddings, all that kind of stuff. Because we are a registered religious nonprofit in the United States. So that's something that's cool and exciting. In terms of, Yucca: own book, right? Mark has an excellent book Mark: Oh yes. My book Ethiopia, paganism and earth honoring path rooted in science. You can order it from any bookstore. I recommend your local independent bookstore because they are great and we support them. And I'm working on another one, which there will be hopefully news about sometime soon. But it'll be a while before it's done. So. In other books, I really recommend rating Sweetgrass by Robin wall Kimmer, which is it's more of a worldview book. It's not really a, here's how to do rituals book, but it's, she is both a botanist an academic botanist and a registered member of the citizen. Patua Tommy Native indigenous tribe. And so she comes at her perspective about the human relationship with nature from both of those perspectives and weaves them together in this very beautiful and illuminating kind of way. So that's once against braiding sweet grass by Robin wall Kimmer Yucca: mm-hmm Mark: I know that she's written other steps that's out there on the web. You can search for her name and you'll find good stuff that she's published. Yucca: Right. Mark: It's not nontheistic, but I do recommend the earth path by Starhawk, which I think is. Yucca: It was very influential for me as a teenager. Like it's an excellent book. Mark: It's a really good book. And, I suspect she's always very circumspect about this, but I suspect that Starhawk is not a very woo woo person. My conjecture and this is just apropo of reading and observation and stuff is that, she may not subscribe to supernaturalism. But she's very careful not to come out explicitly and say that because a lot of people around her do, and she doesn't want to be off putting to them. And she's such luminary in the community that that would really make waves, Yucca: right. Well, it's, what, what is one's goal, right? What is, yeah. And that's, that's my take with my interactions with her as well, but of course, neither of us are her and can speak for her, Mark: course, and, and I'm not trying Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: The reason that I say that is that the book is not a heavily theistic book Yucca: yeah, yeah. Mark: or, or magical, and in terms of supernaturalism kind of book it's really about living life with a relationship with the natural world and in seeking to be a healing presence on the planet towards the natural world. Yucca: And there is a component in that that you can do or skip, but I really advise doing it there's activities that she gives. I don't remember if it's the beginning or the end of each chapter, but she talks about the concept. She gives examples from real life and then gives you things to do. And if you do those actual activities and those practices, they're really well designed and they, they tie into a lot of the stuff that we talk about here with the being present and observing and noticing. So, a good, a good one to get into. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. I, I really agree with that. And similarly her book circle round Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: with Anne hill which is a book for families and with activities for children, Yucca: That's a great one. That's a little bit more on the theistic side. There's like stories with like deities and stuff, but we've read some of those in, in my family, but we're just really clear with the kids. These are stories. These are not, the, these, these figures exist in the way that Santa Claus exist. That it's a figure in our minds and it means something to us, but they're not like people walking around. They're not, there's not a person. And boy, we'd be in for a shock if there, if we were wrong about that Mark: It would definitely reframe the art cosmology a whole lot. But so both of those books, I, I really recommend in terms of practice building for a family or with young children. And then just generally, between braiding sweet grass and the earth path, I think you get a pretty good window into the sort of approach that you and I Yucca take to our paganism. And, and with my book, thrown in there as well that it is, it's a mindset and a worldview and a way of carrying ourselves in the world. Yucca: Right. Mark: More than it is about, worshiping deities or doing, even doing rituals. I mean, even though that is a part of it celebrating the holidays, but at a really deep level, what our paganism is about is how we Yucca: There's there's another side to this that we can add in which is the wow and wonder part. And that's all the science books, the science books, the science podcast I've been binging planetary radio, that's the planetary societies podcast. And they have, they have a lovely host whose whose voice is just a pleasure to listen to. Right? And then they bring on just these amazing guests who talk about the incredible things that we're exploring about our world. And there are podcasts that you can listen to that are about, the microscopic world and the, this and the, that, and the books that just all the pop science books, or if you're in a specific field, you can dig really deep in and, and that's, that can be part of your paganism too. Mark: Sure sure. Because part of the, the wow factor that the sense of wonder in awe about being here at all and. Everything else that's here as well is being informed about it. And so, the, the more you, the more you unravel the universe, the more you, kind of pull on that thread to unravel the sweater, the more you, that stuff you discover, that's just amazing and, and thrilling in a, in a deep spiritual kind of way. It's just so exciting. When I first learned about complexity theory and emergence, I mean, I read two pages and then I would sort of skip around the room and then I, read two more pages and would do that again. Because these are amazing, amazing things and they answer deep questions about why complexity emerges from simpler systems. Right. So, definitely, all that science stuff is right up there with, with our paganism. And I think, I think I would, I'm gonna kind of stop there. There's, I mean, I'm sure that there are tons of books that I'm missing and but my, my encouragement would be less to go in the sort of mainstream paganism direction with your reading at least to start with, because a lot of that stuff is really focused on magical correspondences and relationship with theos and, do this kind of spell to get that kind of result. Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: And. We just come at this from a different angle. Yucca: Right. Wonderful. Mark: question. Yucca: So our next question, this is the second part from Paul and there's a lot of questions wrapped up in this. So I'm gonna, I'm just gonna read the whole piece here. I know you are both involved in environmental conservation and activism, as I suspect many athe pagans would be. I wonder if you would have enough material to discuss what kinds of things in your personal life and practice aimed at planetary protection, what organizations might you be involved in? What experiences have you had with them? Do you organize events like cleanups or fundraising stuff along that line? So there's Mark: very multipart question. Yucca: Right. So yes, both of us have been professionally involved in these areas for, for many years. Mark, do you wanna start with your half on that? Mark: I was gonna invite you to start first. Yucca: all right, well, I'll Mark: why don't Yucca: start on my side. So my background is I am an ecologist. I'm a restoration oncologist, actually. So I would say that I have not been involved in conservation rather in restoration. And currently a lot of my work has been moving in the direction of the education and science communication, but I still do work. There's several several projects that I'm working on in which I work with local land owners in working on respirating their ecosystem. So we're monitoring, looking at management strategies and I'm arranged land specialist. So we're looking at grasslands, Juniper shrub lands. And I mean, this is really amazing rewarding stuff because we can. We can make very small little changes in the way that the land is being managed, because let me, let me step back for this for just a moment we manage land, whether we do it purposefully or not, there's, you're not there isn't land. There isn't anywhere where humans are not involved and not influencing. And there's this, this myth of the wild wilderness where, humans, if you just let it go, it'll do its thing. Every single thing we do is a choice that impacts our land. And I'm from a part of the world, which is a very brittle environment, which is a very fragile environment. And is in fact, this was, is the case for the whole half of the continent is very wounded. Right. And it's been, the ecosystems have been really, really struggling for hundreds, actually thousands of years, but especially within the last few hundred years when the last of the, of the megafauna were purposefully wiped out. And so a lot of what I do is we as waterway restoration, but also bringing animals back in very purposefully, bringing back the grazers in a way that matches what would be happening. If humans hadn't gotten rid of the grazers and hadn't divided everything up with Barb wire and doing all of this. So I work in this, this. Kind of intersection between the ranching world, which is the world I come from. And some of the, the science world in the, bringing that science in, into the restoration for the people who are the stewards of this land and, and really understand it and are part of the land. So that's a incredibly rewarding and kind of beautiful thing to, to get, to, to be honored, to be in involved with that.  Mark: Yeah, that's really important work. I'm I'm really glad you do that. Thank you. Yeah. I have, well, let me see. My part of the reason that I invited you to go first is so that I could sort of put this together in my mind, how to, how to do this. I used to be much more involved in the policy advocacy side of of environmental protection and restoration than I am now. I was the founding executive director of an organization in my local county, which I built over the 10 years that I was their ed into the largest environmental group of any kind on the north coast of California, even larger than Sierra club. And We used grassroots organizing to mobilize thousands of letters and postcards to elected officials on targeted issues, working specifically on local stuff. So municipal stuff, county scale stuff where that kind of outpouring of voter input is unheard of. And it scares the living hell out of elected officials. So we were able to accomplish some really amazing things. We prevented the subregional wastewater system in our area from going to our local river as the discharge point for their tertiary treated wastewater. So instead that water goes up to a natural geothermal field for geothermal energy generation, Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: um, we we got. Planning ordinances in place approved by voters that drew growth boundaries around each of the cities in our county, so that they would stop sprawling into agricultural and habitat lands. So that now the growth that they do is in density and up rather which facilitates public transportation. It facilitates walkable neighborhoods, all of those good urban planning principles. We really put on the map here where I am in Sonoma county. And I'm, I'm proud to say that we, we are really on the cutting edge of what's happening in environmental planning in many ways here in Sonoma county. The organization is called Sonoma county conservation action. And though I left it more than 20 years ago. It's still going and still doing good stuff. And and I'm, I'm very, very proud of that work. Subsequent to that, I worked for seven years a, after being an executive director of a couple of organizations, I focused my attention on fundraising specifically because the public interest missions that I really care about get advanced by nonprofit organizations whose capacities are entirely limited by how much funding they have. Yucca: Right, right. Mark: So it's just, it's about fuel for the engine. And if you, if you don't have it, then however, great your mission is it's very harder to make anything substantive take place. So, I really focused on developing skills in grant writing, major donor fundraising, direct mail event production planned giving. Organizing all that kind of stuff. And that's what I've mostly done since I left conservation action. I did spend seven years at a wetlands Conservancy, which did the kind of restoration work that you're talking about except in a California Oak Chaparral wetlands kind of context. So we restored linear miles of riparian habitat within the Laguna to Santa Rosa, which is the largest tributary of the Russian river. And had a science program as well and an education program for grade school kids. And that I was the second staff person hired there after an executive director. They'd been around as a volunteer group for years, but he and I built the organization's programs to be a really, sustainable and impactful organization. And I'm very proud of that work as well. And they're still around as well, doing the things that they're doing. In recent years, I've worked more on social services and kind of, social impact organizations than environmental organizations. To some degree, I feel like the 60 hour weeks that I worked during my 10 years at conservation action were kind of like my tour of duty. And after 10 years I was thoroughly burned out and I feel like, I got my medals, I got my, congressional resolution of appreciation and state legislature things. And I was named environmentalist of the year for the county and all that stuff. And I kind of took my medals and went home. Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: So now the stuff that I do is much less around the public impact of stuff. And it's more just kind of how I personally conduct my life. I drive an electric car. I I'm really focused on energy consumption and carbon a lot in just how I live my personal life. I'm not much of a consumer. Buying new stuff is just not really a big thrill for me. And and I try to live. A simple but comfortable life within the context that I'm in, which is a kind of suburban city. And of course, to vote the right way and to stay plugged into understanding what that right way is. And and that's, that's kind of it for where I am right now, but I've, I've spent many, many years in the trenches really working to make things better for the environment around here. Yucca: Right. Sounds like you've got a lot of diverse experience. Mark: Well, I'm old or I'm getting old. And so that's, that's what that'll give you. It's yeah, it's been a pretty, pretty amazing ride. I'm I'm very happy with my career, although currently I'm unemployed. Hoping that that's gonna end soon and I can dive into some new mission that that I'm passionate about and that I can do some good with in terms of organizations that we can support. My focus has generally been twofold. I have focused on policy organizations and on land conservancies. So the nature Conservancy conservation international the conservation fund, these, those are organizations that are doing stuff like acquiring large swaves of theier Delta, which is one of the biggest bird bird hatchery, Rory estuary places in the world so that they are not developed in ways that are destructive to those creatures. I, and, and going along with what you said, Yucca they are actively managing those lands. They're not just throwing them behind a fence they're they have actual, land stewards whose job it is to restore and manage those lands. Yucca: Cause certainly if you do that in a brittle environment, you will starve the land. Right? If you just put a fence around it, say nothing, touch it, it, it gets worse and worse and worse. Yeah. Because it's kind of like, here's that, here's an analogy. You find a dog on the side of the road who's been hit and, and her leg is broken. If you just leave the leg alone, right. I mean, it was humans who hit the dog. Right. But if you leave the, the leg alone, it, the, the bones, if they survived, the bones gonna heal wrong, right. They're gonna have a, they're gonna have a, a messed up leg their whole life. But if you take them into the vet and you set the bone and, give them the, the care that they need, then they have a chance to recover, even though it was human's fault in the first place that the dog got hit. Right. So, or a land's kind of like that Mark: yeah. Human intervention is, is required in the vast majority of kind of habitat management. And habitat bio biological systems biological services, as some people call it because they wanna kind of monetarily quantify the value that's provided to humans.  Yucca: I mean, that might be coming a little bit from the terminology of ecosystem services, right? That's an old, an old term that is talking about the, the, the service of, of the water, what the things that it provides. So that would be, that might be one of the directions that is came in from Mark: Right. But some of the, some of the values that we have around conservation are. They're values that don't necessarily directly benefit humans, or if they do, you have to follow a chain in order to find out how they do like biodiversity. For example, I mean, to me, biodiversity is just a core value. I think it's a good thing, period. Whether it benefits humans or not, Yucca: Yeah, well, so I think that biodiversity is one of the most important things. It takes a little bit of explaining to help people understand why, but biodiversity is absolutely key to the survival. Everything that we need, the air that we breathe, the food that we eat, the everything is dependent upon that biodiversity. And when we have areas with low biodiversity, those systems fail, they fall apart, right? Biodiversity is perhaps one of the most important, important things there is for this, this planet, right. Biodiversity is a healthy biosphere. Mark: mm-hmm yeah. Yeah. I agree. The, the level of diversity prior to humans developing the kinds of capacities that we have now to really impact the environment in a really dramatic way.  Yucca: Monoculture being the, the really big yeah. For all your P protein. Mark: right. The level of complexity that existed on the earth at that time prior to the ad, the advent of those technologies is something that we can't even imagine today. And some of it, some of it was relatively recent. I mean, in the 19th century flock of passenger pigeons that took three days to pass over, would go over in migration in migration season. And the passenger pigeon is now extinct. And that's because they, their tail feathers were desired for hats. Yucca: yeah, Mark: And that's what we did. Yucca: and if you've ever visited someplace like yellow, The entire continent was like double that, Mark: Mm-hmm Yucca: Just in terms of the life that was everywhere. Now it's gonna be different life depending on the particular bio region. Right. Although some of those things were across the entire continent, right. Wolves or things like that. Speaking of Yellowstone just a mention to everybody. My, my brother lives there and he was sending us photographs of his neighbor's houses, like literally floating away. It's a, Mark: I was gonna ask you when we were done recording. If he was okay. Yucca: Yeah. He's just high enough up. But a lot of the they're tough Montanans are, are tough. They're a tough bunch, but but there's a lot of tourists who are stuck there too, that are in kind of a panic Mark: that's in Wyoming, right? Yucca: No Montana. Mark: Yellowstone. Yucca: Yeah. Well it's a big area, but he's in Gardner Montana. Mark: Huh Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I've I've been to Yellowstone and I could have sworn that it was in Wyoming relatively close to the border, Yucca: but maybe it goes into, but no it's Montana.  Mark: Oh, wait a Yucca: of it that are, that are in Mark: are in Wyoming and also Idaho. Yucca: Yeah. It's a big, it's a big area. Yeah, he's in gardener. So that's the, and there are multiple different entrances to the park. But it's, it's, I mean, there's flooding happening in that whole area. Yeah. Mark: boy, we could sure. Use some of that water here. Yucca: well, basically all the rain that the Southwest hasn't been getting and the surrounding areas has just been dumping right there. They got like a whole bunch of inches on top of their snow pack and then that's what came down. But anyways, so, yeah, that's just our hearts go out to, to everybody with that. And there are, you could just go fund me if you're interested. There are just type in type in, Montana floods Yellowstone floods, and there's, there's definitely some support that people can, can get. It's gonna be a quite a while before some of those roads and, and things are rebuilt. But it is a good lesson to not build your roads at the bottom of valleys.  Mark: Yeah. Run building your road right along the waterway is a, it's a bad, I it's bad for the waterway for one thing. But it's a really bad idea. If you are in a flashy valley that gets really big storm events periodically because it's gonna take the road out. Yucca: Yeah. Now this is the highest it's been ever in recorded history. This is the, but it's still, it's something that I think we're gonna have to be really mindful. We should have been over the last, century, but we're gonna have to be really mindful about that moving forward. And I think we'll see a lot more of this in communities having to redesign and those roadways that's where a lot of with the work I do, a lot of the erosion that we deal with was just. Roads that made sense why they were built that way, because it was the least expensive EC. I mean, if you've ever , if you've ever graded a road, you understand why you're trying to do it the easiest possible, because it's hard to do. But a lot of the erosion is caused by just poorly placed roads where we weren't paying attention. And we didn't realize on my own land, we have an Arroyo that cuts through that is 30 feet deep. So it's a cut gash 30 feet. And looking at it, I know that that, that erosion feature is can't be more than 80 or 90 years old to get 30 feet. Right. And that's the case across the whole, whole west Mark: the whole American west. Absolutely. Yucca: So, but coming back to our question, other, you were talking about organizations Mark: And then the, the other question was about organizing cleanups or other sort of volunteer activities. Yucca: Right. Mark: in my professional capacity, I have organized those kinds of things, for the organizations I've worked for. It is my hope that some of the affinity groups, the atheopagan local, geographically focused affinity groups may at some point do something like that, or at least, go to a cleanup event of some kind wearing atheopagan t-shirts or something like that to kind of represent the. The, the, the movement of non Theus paganism and show that we are putting our, our labor where our mouths are. But that's a new program that just started this year and it's early days yet. In fact, I'm going to an in-person summer solstice celebration to S celebration tomorrow with other folks from Northern California that are, on the atheopagan Facebook group and we have a discord and we're gonna do a summer solstice ritual and have a Noche and it'll be good. Yucca: when this goes live, I should be meeting up with another atheopagan family. So I'm very excited about that and our kids are gonna get to get to play. So, Mark: so cool. I, I just, I, I love the idea of Well, it's not even the idea. I love the fact that our community is starting to knit a little bit, even though we're we're geographically far flung. And there aren't that many of us we're starting to make connections in, and I think the sun tree retreat that we went to was a big factor for that. I know that a lot of people really wanted to stay in touch with the people that went to the retreat with them. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So Yucca: So before we jump to our next one, I wanted to mention organizations that we're involved with. So I'm involved with and give money every month. We don't have a lot, but every little bit helps. The savory Institute is one that we have really, really value and have seen. And I'm speaking, we, as in my, my family and I seen incredible results with and also my husband is a student of Elaine Ingram. So we are, starting up our own soil, food web, and those are kind of the, the big organizations that we're involved with. That'd, invite people to check out in terms of like cleanups. We live pretty rural. So if we were in an urban environment, that would be kind of more of a thing. But we do go to the county meetings and and call, know the, the commissioners and call 'em up. And they, they, they know us. Right. And since it is a rural community, there is people like their privacy, but we also help each other out. So we don't really have barns around here, but the equivalent of barn raising type of things. And that's where a lot of our, our energy goes into is the, the small communities cuz we're, very rural and kind of everybody's their own little ranch homestead out in this area. Mark: Sure. Yeah. That really contrasts with where I am. I mean, California is obviously very heavily populated, but you know, I'm here on the coast and one of the most attractive things to a human is an area where there's water moving around. People love to go to the beach and so beach cleanups and river cleanups and that kind of thing are, are phenomenon where I am just because there's enough people to make a mess. Yucca: Well, and even if you didn't have people going to the beach, you'd probably have stuff washing up all the time anyways. So there's just always gonna be stuff to, to go and, and help out with. And you have some amazing, Mark: Yes  Yucca: Marine ecosystems right off your coast. Mark: we do. We do. Yeah. They are endangered the, the kelp forests are being replaced by a sort of gelatinous slime on the bottom of the ocean. And many of the many of the creatures are being replaced by sea urchins. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: But, Yucca: Kiddos are huge Octa, not fans, if there's any other parents out there, you know what I'm talking about? And their favorite character is Shellington the sea Otter. Who's allergic to sea urchins, but all his other friends eat up the the urchins. They have a whole episode about how important the sea otters are to keeping those urchins in balance. Mark: yes. And that's another species which was haunted nearly to extinction and is now rebounded quite well along the California coast. Yucca: I'm glad to hear that. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. It's, they're so adorable. It's great Yucca: They're oh my goodness. So. Mark: so. Yucca: yeah, our our next question, and this actually ties back to what we're talking about, about the, the community. This is coming from Savannah who did a, a much longer email, really love the email, but I'm just gonna pull this last bit out. Talking about community with the larger pagan community, which may not necessarily be non theist or athe pagans. So they write, I've been pondering, whether I should start attending local pagan events, which in this area seem to be skewed, more viewed, more theistic, and based in the supernatural, is it worth it? Are there ways to get along? Would I simply have to turn my brain off at a, at certain points, bite my tongue and swallow my allergy to woo. Or is there a way to be part of mainstream pagan community in a way that's authentic to me. So some good stuff in here. Mark: Yeah. Great question. And it's one that I think is really pertinent for everyone that's practicing in the non theist pagan realm. There, there is, as, as rare as pagans are, and the best estimate that I've seen for north America is that there's probably about a million of us in in the United States. And then more in Canada and Mexico. So that that's not very much in a country of 330 odd million people. Yucca: yeah. Mark: But there is a community and there are events, there are festivals and there are conferences and there are opportunities to get in their local groups that are opportunities to get together. And unfortunately there is no way to broadly characterize those. It really depends on the personalities and the culture of what's going on in your local area. So not knowing who those people are. I can't really say whether it's possible for you to be out as atheist pagan with other pagans and have them welcome you. Some places do some places don't, Yucca: And it's so personal too. Right? We can give advice, but what's gonna, even if, if you, there were two atheopagan in the same place who didn't know each other, we're having the same question. It's gonna be different for each of those people based on their personalities and their comfort zone. All of that stuff. so we can certainly give the advice, but, but know that it's gonna be different for absolutely everyone. And there's not a right answer. Mark: Right. My rule of thumb for this sort of thing is that when I'm a guest, I obey the hosts rules. Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: So if I'm invited to a ritual and they're doing all this theistic stuff, I just translate it in my mind, understanding that they may not know that they're talking to air and that that's, that that they're just talking to themselves or not. But that doesn't really matter. I know that. And I understand what they're trying to get at in terms of the characteristics, the qualities, the nature of the figure that they're invoking, right? Like if they're invoking Zeus, there are particular qualities and characteristics that that figure of myth has, and that's what they're, that's what they're invoking into the ritual that you're working to do. So I don't necessarily, I mean, I'm not going to pipe up in the middle of somebody's ritual and say, I don't believe that Yucca: Yeah, Mark: but so it, it is rude, right. If we get into a theological discussion, I'm going to, I'm gonna be public about my atheopagan, but you don't have to be, if you're not comfortable, Yucca: right. Mark: You can say, my, my personal cosmology is really private to me. Or you can say I look at things somewhat differently, but that doesn't really matter. I'm glad to be here. And, enjoying being with you folks, Yucca: Or you can steer the conversation away and not actually ask, answer the question that they asked. Right. When they ask a direct question, you just talk about whatever you wanna talk about and just run with the conversation in a different direction,  Mark: I mean, Yucca: that's. Yeah. Mark: I mean, talk about your passion for nature, talk about your, your sense of awe and wonder at, what's happening with the James web telescope. There, there are a lot of different things that you can do that will resonate with the vast majority of practicing pagans that don't have to do with God's and magic. If somebody, is sort of grilling you about, well, what kind of spells do you really like to do? Yada yada? Well, I'm not much of a spellcaster I've been known. I've been known to use that line a lot. And the vast majority of pagans, at least in the United States are solitary. They are not people who work in groups or coves or circles. So. That understanding. That means that by definition, it's a very idiosyncratic community of people. Everybody's got their own way of approaching things. So there is a lot of tolerance in the pagan community for difference of many kinds. The problem is that when you, when you explain that you don't believe in deities or supernatural beings of any kind, people can take that as a criticism of their belief. And you want to kind of avoid that implication if at all possible. Everybody has to draw their own cosmological conclusions. We've done that based on evidence and science, others do it based on experiences that they've had. Right. Believing what their, what their sensorium developed as an experience for them believing that that is an actual physical thing that happened in the world. So if they heard the voice of a God talking to them, they don't think that it was their brain. They think that it was the voice of a God talking to them. And, we, we need to respect that they as humans, they have the right to do that. They have the right to their own spiritual path and the right to their own Conclusions about the nature of the world. But we don't have to say, oh yes, I see. I, I know how that is. We can, we can divert the conversation or just be, really Franken, but in a vague way. Right. I, I have kind of a different way of understanding that stuff, but that sounds really powerful to me, Yucca: Yeah. Cause that's, that's another strategy is to just let them talk about themselves and their. Turn it back to them getting to talk about themselves because not everybody, but most pagans are really excited to get to talk about their thing with somebody. Right. You're gonna listen to me. Go on. Right. So like asking a D and D player about their characters, you Mark: Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Well, let me just tell you, Yucca: yeah. Now the other thing that we of course need to put a plug in for is and this is kind of a place that, that atheopagan is right now. One of the stages is that we are growing and starting to build a lot of community. So it might be an opportunity for you to. To start building a community, right. If there isn't already an atheopagan affinity group in your area, maybe you could start one, right. Or maybe there might be, for me, there's just not enough of us in New Mexico. So I'm chilling with the Coloradans, right? Like, okay, that's close enough. I'll go hang out with you. You're, you're only a few hours away, so maybe there's something like that. So Mark: Yeah. Yeah. And community is a really good thing. And it's an important function of, of religion of spirituality. It's. Well, okay. I, I don't want to get into the difference between religion and spirituality and there are no universally agreed definitions for those terms anyway, but. To me, religion is a communal activity. It's something that, that, a community builds itself up around, and it's good for us. It's good for us not to be siloed all the time and to be connected with other people of like mind. So what Yucca says is really a, an important point that you know, I, there was this reporter in the bay area many years ago, scoop NICAR who used to say, if you don't like the news, go out and make some of your own. And similarly with pagan community, if you don't like what they're doing, make some of your own, announce a announce, a Sabba holiday celebration and invite people that you think. Might fit might, might celebrate that, you can have a nice, a nice feast dinner and meet some new people. Meetup.com is actually a really useful thing for that because people who are looking for things to do, looking for ways to connect with others are they're there. That's where they are. So it's a, it's a useful tool. Yucca: Yeah. Okay. So let's take this last one for now. And again, if you wanna, if you wanna send in your questions or topics please do, but this last one is from Cheryl. And this is kind of a, kind of a fun one, a little bit of a tricky one. So two parts to it. Okay. What positive stereotypes do you hope athe pagans become known for? And on the flip side, what are some possible negative stereotypes you worry about? And you would like to steer the community away. Yeah. Mark: Okay. Okay. Yucca: I mean, I could, some of the positive ones immediately, I could say. I hope that we've become known for being compassionate. Interesting. Open-minded very critical, but in like a Socratic kind of loving of education way, those are some, I mean, basically I'm just taking out my personal values that I like and saying, I want the whole community to be like that. Right. But yeah. Mark: Yeah. I think I would like, for us to know, for, to be known for being kind. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And also critical thinkers and for our genuine love for nature, our, our, our deep passion for this world and our capacity to inspire that in others. I would also like for us to be known as really effective ritualists, people that can really change you psychologically really, transform the hurts within us so that we heal and really put on a great celebration. That's filled with joy and happiness and connection. So those, those pieces I think are really important to me as well. On the other side on the negative side, what I would like to do is divert our reputation away from the new atheists. Yucca: mm-hmm Mark: I don't want to be, I don't want to be perceived in the same bucket as Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris and all those guys, Lauren Krause. Yucca: I mean, for me, for many years, I shied away from using the term atheist because of that association. Right. I think actually there was a, a video like years back at this point that I had made that I had mentioned that. And you had commented in the, the comments section about that. Right. And it was a really nice kind of eye opener, but because you hear a lot of people, you hear the word atheist and the, what comes to mind is the person like shooting down and tearing apart and, and just being very like, Mark: Being being antithetic Yucca: and yeah, and just shutting everybody down. Right. Mark: right, right. In, in, in with, with the, with the key goal, being this sort of egotistical, Yucca: Superiority. Mark: the, and Desi desire to be right. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And I mean, everybody, everybody thinks their cosmology is right. It's true that people who base their cosmologies on evidence are more likely to be. Right. But being right is cold comfort. It's not. It doesn't, you can't build community around being right. Which is why atheism doesn't really have communities. There's. I mean, there are a couple of organizations where people belong to them and get together to talk about how right they are. And I've been to a few of those, Yucca: Yeah. Well at its core, though, atheism is just not. Theist. Right. And then there's so many different then. I mean, that's only just a tiny part of culture. Right. And then there's so much. And so that's, I mean, what, what we've done is we've taken and brought together the, okay. We don't deal with that God thing, but we are pagans. We, we appreciate science. We use that as a framework for understanding the world, but we also have all of these other values that we are adding to this. You can be atheist and have values, Mark: Yes. Yes. And paganism by its very nature is culture building rather than being handed culture from a book or from an existing tradition, that's already got all of its own rules. We are in the process of creating culture for ourselves that meets our values and works to help us to be really happy and effective in the world. And those are things that don't really fit very well in the, in the new atheist schema of things, because they involve a lot of. Kind of soft, cushy stuff that isn't the bright, hard steel of science, right? They involve rituals and psychology and myth and symbols and all the, the artistic impulse, the creative impulse all of those things that are so, so intrinsic to who we are as humans, but not about the thinky part of being humans. They're about the other parts to being humans and valuing those other parts and feeding them and building community around them. Yucca: Right. And what I really hope for us is that we continue to grow and cultivate an appreciation for both of those sides. Right? Because the, the pagan community at large is really good at those feeling squishy stuff. But one of the things that we're doing is atheopagan is also bringing in the, yeah, let's bring in this logic, let's bring in this critical thinking and we're and we're bettered for it. We feel it improves our life. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. And, and there's a, I guess I would say there is a, a satiety to the worldview of non-US paganism. There's, there's a way that it fills us up because the world is enough, right. Nature, all the way out to the gala. Super clusters and, macro structures in the universe all the way down, down below the quirks to, the, the, the tiny boons and microparticles. It, it's so amazing and so enormous to try to get your mind around even a little bit, that we, we are able to be satisfied with it. Somehow we don't need to populate it with human-like figures that are probably pretty unlikely to exist based on the available evidence. And so one of the things that I've said about Ethiopia paganism quite a bit is that we're the spirituality of verifiable reality. Yucca: like that. Will you say that one again? Mark: we're the spirituality of verifiable reality. You, you don't need for there to be a supernatural dimension to the universe in order to be filled with a spiritual sense of awe and joy and purpose and finding meaning in this life. And and so that's what we're about and what I would hope people would take away from encountering us is this feeling of, wow, that's a really cool person. I really liked them. They were warm and they were thoughtful and they were interesting and they were creative. And I wanna spend more time with those kinds of people. Yucca: Yeah. And welcoming. Mark: Yes. And, and welcoming. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Not proselytizing to be clear, not you should be one of us, but just welcoming, if you're, if you're curious about the stuff that I'm into, here's where you can find it. Yeah. As the, as the, the founder of the particular path of athe paganism within the broader category of non-US paganism, my goal has always been from the very beginning to try to do it. All right. And I'm human. So that means that there's gonna be, places where it doesn't get done. Right. But with a community, I think you can correct for any one person's errors in order to become more and more kind, more and more consistent with your expressed values, more and more mutually accountable and transparent, more and more affirming of the value of every person who's in the community and every person in the world. And so that really is my hope that we are on this evolutionary journey where as a movement, among the many movements of humans here we're gaining some traction for those kinds of values and way of being in the world with one another. Yucca: Yeah, I've been very encouraged and impressed by the community. And there's been so many people stepping forward and taking leadership roles and people are certainly not afraid to correct you or anyone else. And you have been you've received that very well in the situations that I've seen and just, just a very mature group of, of really passionate and kind people that are just excited to grow this and create, create this community that, that we're cultivating together. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. I've, I've really found that too. I mean, when I first entered the pagan community back in the eighties what struck me was how incredibly cool the people were. The, they were heartfelt. They were. Open. They were interesting. They were creative. Now a lot of them believed some stuff that I was kind of like, well, I, I'm not sure how that all, I I'm, I'm not sure how that all squares with the evidence, but okay. In this community, I'm finding all of those same qualities along with a real sort of intellectual sharpness a, a very thoughtful, analytical capacity. And it's just a joy to be a part of I've. I, I so enjoy, the online interactions, the, the, the in person interactions. It's just really been an amazing thing. Yucca: Yeah, and I am really grateful to share this time with you and all of you listening that, you take a, take a part of your week aside to hang out with us and, and be part of this, this amazing community and this amazing movement and whatever it is that we are. So thank you. Thank all of you. Mark: Yes. Thank you very much. Thank you for wanting to be the kind of person we're all working to be. Cuz the world needs it. The world, the world needs kind thoughtful, critically thinking inclusive people who care about things like justice and, and nature, right? Yeah. Yucca: Yeah. And thank you for the, the questions. And we will do another one of these episodes when we get some more questions. This was a lot of fun. I liked having the kind of a lot of the, the smaller topics. I mean, any of these, actually we could have really fleshed out into a full episode actually, but it was nice to get, to get to go through and, and kind of jump from topic to topic and, and go to some very different places in the same hour. Mark: Yeah, yeah. I really enjoyed it too. Remember you could contact us at the wonder podcast queues, gmail.com. That's the wonder podcast, QS, gmail.com. And we always welcome your, your feedback, your questions, all that kind of stuff. So thank you so much, Yucca. See you next week.

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E21 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Yucca: Welcome back to the wonder science-based paganism. I'm one of your hosts Yucca.  Mark: And I'm the other one. Yucca: And this episode, we're talking about adversity. So some of what's going on in the world right now, personal adversity, how we can deal with that, address that, and, really all those topics surrounding that. Mark: Yeah, every week as we talk about what we're going to discuss. The, the challenge of these times really comes to us. And it's not that other times haven't had their own challenges because they certainly have, but the challenges that face these times that we're living in right now are so extreme and so severe. And so ubiquitous that even, even. People who are generally pretty privileged are still impacted by them. Only, only the, the fabulously wealthy are able to sort of skate on being impacted by the things that are, that are putting pressure on us humans, as we try to live our daily lives. And so we thought. That it would be good to kind of come at this head on this week and talk about adversity and approaches to it and how our spiritual and ritual practices can help us with that. And just kind of trying to map out the territory a little bit on what it feels like when you feel threatened, when. When bad things are happening and they hurt and they scare you. And and you're, you're challenged in knowing what to do.  Yucca: Yeah. So one of the things that we could start with is thinking about when you are faced with adversity, with taking a look at. And really honestly, examining what's going on and what components you have control over and which ones you don't, because we can take things really personal sometimes that, you had no control over that forest fire or that hurricane or. Realistically the, the state of the economy, you as an individual, that's what the Stoics would call inconsequential. Right? Not that it doesn't matter, but that you don't control it. You don't have direct influence over it. But there are some things that you do have control over, your responses. Yeah. Mark: Right. And being able to make that differentiation, having the discernment is really important. And some of what's required for that is to be able to step back emotionally a little bit, kind of call them the, the, the panic feelings and, or, or the hurt feelings.  Yucca: Which takes practice. Mark: It does take practice. And, you know, the grounding procedures that we've talked about here on this podcast, many times are super useful for that meditation entering into ritual, trance states. All of those things can really help you with. Being able to step back and take a dispassionate, look as much as possible at the circumstances that you're in and then really try to sift out, Okay. this is stuff I have some impact over. This is stuff that I can influence. This is stuff that's beyond my control. And I, I either that, or it's only very marginally within my control. And so as I approached this adversity, I'm going to put most of my effort into the things that I actually have a lot of influence over. Right. I can affect my own behavior. I can affect my own mentality. And part of what, what is required to get to that decision is to abandon narratives that have to do with personal failure, personal lack of worthiness or, or a general sort of despair at the nature of the world, because all of those are very disempowering. You know, if, if you're, if the place that you're stuck in confronting an adverse situation is why does this always happen to me or It's hopeless. The world is just like that. Then it's very difficult for you to be able to make any changes that are going to improve your situation. So that involves working with that inner critic voice and with your own, self-esteem all the kinds of things we've been talking about throughout this podcast. You know, relationships feed us and the relationship that feeds us more than any other is our relationship with ourselves.  Yucca: Yeah. It's comes from a Christian tradition, but I've always been quite fond of the serenity. And modified it. So the, it goes may have the serenity to accept the things that I can not change the courage to change the things that I can and the wisdom to know the difference.  Mark: There it is  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Reinhold Niebuhr.  Yucca: Right. And so that was a slightly modified version. Cause I don't want to start with oh God and heavenly father, because I don't think it's coming from anyone else. Right. This is, this is coming from inside. This is coming from us and our, our view on the world and our view on ourselves. But I think it's a really useful framework for that. Mark: And part of what it does is it. It calls on certain capacities within us, that all of us have, right. We all have the capacity to be serene and dispassionate. We all have the capacity to be courageous and we all have the capacity to be. Right. And those are the kinds of things that. we need to bring to bear when we're in an adverse situation. So really at the very beginning, there's that, there's that winnowing out of what can I do and what is unlikely to be influenceable by my actions. And this is a place where we differ quite a bit from. Rest of the pagan community because in the, in the mainstream pagan community where people believe in gods and in literal magic, they think they can influence stuff like decisions in Congress by having, or a decision at the Supreme court, by having a ritual and praying to their gods.  Yucca: Now, I think those things can be influenced, but with act with action, right? Not necessarily ritual.  Mark: Right. And we, in our naturalistic non-ferrous pagan science-based pagan traditions do not believe that we have super powerful beings to appeal to. It's all about us. We're we're here on earth. And when, when these things happen or change, it's going to be because we make them do that. We meaning humanity writ large.  Yucca: Okay. Mark: So this is an important distinction, Right. And to my mind, it's an empowering distinction to often have I heard in the pagan community? Oh, well, that's up to the gods. Which is a dereliction of responsibility. In my opinion, we do have a responsibility for the kind of government that we have. We do have a responsibility for for the kind of world and culture that we're building. And that from everything from the way that we treat one another, all the way to. Our specific activism in favor of policies that are more kind and more inclusive And more just. Yucca: Right. going back to what you, to what we were talking about before, though, another way of talking about this, that is all true, but none of us are the chosen one. Right. There is, there's not a chosen one who we individually are going to make that happen. And because the Supreme court makes the decision that we don't want, that doesn't make it our individual fault that we need to have shame about because we didn't work hard enough. We didn't do enough. We didn't, you know, we weren't enough, enough enough. This is something that we as humanity, we as a community have influence over, but we're members of the community. We are. All of humanity individually. Mark: Yeah. That's the flip side of this is not over imagining the degree of power that you have. Each of us is a powerful person, but we're also just. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And so not having exaggerated or inflated ideas of your own personal influence or underestimated and discounted ideas of your own personal influence, I think is very important. We talk a lot about paying attention. In this podcast, paying attention to the cycles of nature, paying attention to what creatures are, are thriving and living and going through their life cycles at any given time of the year, paying attention to what's going on inside you so that you can grow and learn and and become happier and freer. And. You know, a more actualized person and that kind of paying attention is also necessary when it comes to understanding our limits, as well as our capacities.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Where are we now? We we've talked about adversity and the discernment process. Do we want to go into, then what we can do, having, having sifted out the things that we have influence over?  Yucca: Yeah, I think I mean, there's definitely, there's so many different directions to come at this from there's different kinds of adversity, right? There's, there's personal, kind of individual challenges. There might be the interpersonal relationship between you and your partner or family member, but then there's kind of, there's other scales of things. There's job loss and sickness and. Those sorts of things. And then, and then really big scale things that are impacting everybody with like climate change and fires and hurricanes and, global economics war. So there's all of these different scales. But a lot of the things that we can do. On an emotional kind of spiritual level are going to be very similar responses to those in terms of how we can take care of ourselves. But one of the places we could start with is talking about preparing oneself to face adversities, because we're going to, you don't know what it's going to be in your life. Maybe, maybe you're going to be lucky and it's only going to be. The challenge, interpersonal challenges, right. But maybe you're going to have to evacuate in two years. Maybe there's going to be a car crash and not to be fear-mongering here, but these are, these are possibilities to think about.  Mark: Right. These are things that happen to people. Yucca: yeah.  Mark: And they're the reasons why people buy insurance. The. Where was I going with this? The, the step I think we can take after having made that discernment is to having identified what we don't have much influence over. We don't abandon that. We put it aside. So when an issue like climate change, yes, we don't have much influence as individuals over it. And. Believe me, if you've been sold this idea that it's all up to the consumer to solve carbon in the atmosphere, please disabuse yourself of that because there's about 500 companies in the world that produce something like 70% of the carbon pollution in the world. It's their fault. It's not our fault. And we really need to be active to be reducing those emissions because that's where the big problem is.  Yucca: All right. So, so focusing. Where are the points, where are the places that's going to make the biggest impact, whether it is looking at something like, okay, how do we tackle carbon emissions? Where do we put the majority of our focus? But that could also be okay. My family is going through financial struggles right now. Right? Where can I put my focus in a place that it's going to be the most impacted? Right. There may be some things that you'd normally wouldn't do you normally wouldn't let them have screen quite as much as they're having or something like that, but what what's going to make the big impact. So if I may on just a very practical level, something that actually, this is what we were doing in the house this week. This was our inventory week where we were going through and looking at all the stuff that we have. And we'd like to have about six months worth of, if we couldn't go anywhere for six months, would we have enough water? Would we have enough food? Would we have it? And you know, that took us years to get to that. We didn't just, buy six months of stuff all at once. Cause we, we're low income, tick a lot, but going through and going, okay, what do we need to, what do we need to be preparing for? Right. Do we have, we live in an area that has forest fires. So do we have a bag in the car? That has stuff for everybody, do we know where the, do we know where all our documents are? Do we know where there's cat food? All those things and getting all of that together so that, we don't want there to ever be a situation in which we'd have to stay home for. But Hey, that actually just happened right. years ago, we couldn't go anywhere. Or, we don't want to be in a situation where we'd have to pack up and leave. But if we are, we want to be prepared for that. And not like from a fearful place, right. We don't want to do it as like, oh no, we're scared. Or, that sort of thing, but from a place of, of wanting to take care of ourselves, but also. Wanting to take care of our community from a social responsibility place. Because if, if we don't have to take the resources, there's a limited number of resources for when disasters happen. There's only a limited number of first responders. There's a limited number of that. We don't want to be taking those resources that could be for somebody else who needs it more than us. So I really encourage people to have a little bit, you know, even if it's just a few, just look at. Whatever it is for your situation. Maybe it's just four or five days of water and food, things like that. Do you have a flashlight, those sorts of things, just to be prepared in the case that something happens, you're going to be in a better place. So you have that physical side that we talk about a lot in terms of self care, we talk about the health side, how do you take care of yourself and your household and your, and your community and your, your loved one. Before that all happens. Mark: Right. And I think it's important to notice as we talk about that kind of preparation. That means you're already in adverse. The disaster hasn't happened, but the pressure that the possibility of the disaster puts on you means you're already in a situation where you're dealing with adversity, right? Because if, if unlike either of us, you lived in an area where there wasn't a danger of wildfires, then you wouldn't have to do that kind of prepper. Right. There might be something else like tornadoes or hurricanes or  Yucca: floods  Mark: earthquakes or. whatever. But you you're, you're not concerned about wildfires because that's just not something that happens in your area. So I think that. Being aware of the places where we feel those pressures is really important, you know, understanding, Hey, it's, it's wearing on me that in the back of my mind all the time is this possibility that w is really negative for me. So. I've been talking about this almost a year ago, I lost my job and I've been looking for a job ever since. And just this past week had another job where there were two final candidates and I'm not the one who got the job. And I'll be talking more about that later in the podcast in terms of what I can do relative to what's out of my control. It is in my mind all the time, all the time that we're broke, we don't have money. We, we, we don't know where the money is going to come from to pay for July's rent yet. We, you know, we're in danger and that danger is in the back of my mind all the time. And that's stressful. It puts stress on us. So be aware of the stressors that are in your life, even if they feel like maybe long shots, you feel enough urgency to do some preparation against something happening, it means that it's stressing you. That it's possible.  Yucca: Yeah. So we've been talking a little bit about some of the. Practical things one can do, but there's also the practice side, right? So there is the practice of practicing grounding, right? Really just taking those deep breaths, kind of letting that tension out or whatever it is that you do. Some people use visualization with that, you know, imagining a tree or things like that are very, are very common ones. Getting in the habit of having something like that or having a meditation practice or having your daily moment in front of your focus, those sorts of things can start to build up some emotional resiliency so that when you are facing, whether it's those, those Those kind of in the background, low key ones that we're just talking about, that pressure in the back of your mind of, is there going to be a forest fires are going to be, this is the, the food prices, whatever it is you can be addressing those, but then if something does happen, if you do have to evacuate, if you have lost your job, if you do have that, blow out, fight with your spouse or whatever it is, you've got something that you've been practicing. That you can, that you can go to, that you can use. Mark: It can help bring you back to see. Yes, because we don't make good decisions when we're not centered. And often that can compound a bad situation and make it worse. So you really want not to make decisions when you're in the heat of the fear or the anger. That's just not a good time to be making decisions about how to approach the challenges in your life.  Yucca: Right. Mark: I find that my atheopagan practice serves me in three different ways. As I contend with the adversity in my life. The first is that it helps me feel better connected with nature. And nature is a tremendous solace to me, even though it is, you know, so beleaguered and besieged by all the damage that has been done still, the fabric of life on this earth at some level is thriving. It's, you know, there's still life everywhere. It may not be the life that we would like to be there in terms of endangered species of invasive species and so forth. It's still life and it's still turning its leaves to the sun and making sugar and feeding those webs of life all over the world. And to me, that's a very beautiful thing and it helps give me some perspective about the temporary and small nature of my problem. The second thing that it does for me is direct psychological calming. The, the ritual practices that I have, like, seeing my atheopagan rosary, for example, it's, it's good for my self esteem. It's good for my sense of the world. It's good for my relationship with my fellow humans. It just helps. Those kinds of practices and then the third method. And I think this is something we should expand on a lot is because it makes me a part of a community and. We talk a lot in the United States, especially about how alienated people are in this culture, families, splinter and scattered to the far corners of the country or the world. Families are not particularly intimate with one another. And often in fact, they're really at one another's throats. People don't tend to make friends after school, after college, which is something that was shocking to me because I have lots of friends that I've made after college. But in fact, I don't have any friends from college that that chapter has come and gone, but The sense of being alone against it all is really prevalent in our society. And that's just terrible. The way that humans have contended with every adversity historically through our evolution has been collectively as a group, you know, we've solved problems together. And we've supported one another in solving those problems. And so being a part of the atheopagan community, even though we mostly meet online, that has provided a tremendous sense of belonging and support and shared worldview to me, you know, a common set of values that really. It helps me to feel held and valued and seen all of which are just so important for us psychologically. So, and, you know, being a part of the pagan community generally, which is a, you know, a larger subculture similarly helps me to do that. The. The, the upshot of what I'm saying is that if you, if you're alone, if you're really alone, if you don't have people in your life with whom you can talk about your deep experience, that's something to work on because honestly, that's your lifeline. That's, that's the. That's, those are the relationships that will save you when you need saving and that where you can save them in turn. You know, this is what people go to mainstream religions for all the time. You know, there are plenty of people attending churches out there who are not necessarily believers in either the supernatural stuff in their holy texts or or in the values that are being espoused from the pulpit. But. It gives them a sense of belonging to a group of people who share something in common and can therefore speak a language that alludes to those things that they have in common and share cookouts and picnics and potlucks and study groups. And. All those kinds of things. You know, belonging is so important for us humans and American culture has just shattered us into these individuals. And individualism is a, it's a particularly pernicious aspect of our culture. It's not that it's not that we shouldn't develop ourselves and actualize ourselves. Individually to the greatest degree possible, but we need to do that in the context of a group.  Yucca: Hmm, it's a, how do they say a mixed can, right? It has some really really very helpful, positive things to it. And there's some others, like what you've been talking about this isolation there's, there's a lot that we lose from it too.  Mark: Right. Right. And, and, you know, in its extreme, you know, like political libertarianism, that kind of stuff, it turns into this very adversarial us versus them. You know, kind of mean-spirited, I don't care about you. You've got to take care of yourself, sort of mentality. That honestly doesn't serve anyone. It doesn't serve the people who espoused and it doesn't serve the people who are around them. It doesn't serve the society as a whole. It's just not, it's not helpful.  Yucca: Hmm. So that's one of the things that we can do though, is the seeking and building really growing and cultivating community. And that's something that can be helpful. Before during and after. Adversity. Because some, sometimes there's a lot of, of trauma that you're going to come out with and healing that in recovery that is needed and ritual practice, we talk all the time about ritual on this podcast, right? That's an incredible tool. And then also having that love and support and that sense of belonging that in itself can do so much to. Help with the process. Mark: Absolutely it, and what's amazing is that it can help with the process, even if it's not helping with any of the practical considerations. Like if I go to my community and I say, You know, I'm desperate and I can't find a job. There are some practical things that they can do, like increase donations to my Patrion, which people have been doing lately, which is a wonderful thing. And I'm so grateful to all the people that have pitched in on that. A lot of the things that they can do or things that aren't practical and they're still absolutely important just simply by saying, I see you. I understand your struggle. I, I empathize with where you are. I'm here to hear your, your, your struggle, your sorrow, your fear. I'm here for that. And. Too few of us have that in their lives. I think even within intimate relationships, certainly for men. I mean, I, you know, heterosexual men, I don't think are going to their partners very often and saying I'm scared,  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: or I really need  Yucca: done as a culture to our men, I think is just so it's so painful. Mark: It's tragic. It really is. And as somebody that works very hard, not to be a part of toxic masculinity and that's always a work in progress it's like trying to be anti-racist right. It's like, it's you never get there. There's always more to be learned and done. But one of the things that I am very grateful for is that I. I have many people in my life that I can go to, you know, with my deepest feelings and tell them and know that they will be received well. And in the spirit in which they were intended.  Yucca: Yeah, what a difference. Yeah. Mark: it, it makes a huge difference. And I think. You know, I was reflecting on this about the century retreat recently because I've particularly a couple of men who were there, were talking about it afterwards as an unprecedented experience for them. And I believe that part of the unprecedented experience was the degree of personal disclosive, Venice. The people were sharing their, you know, the degree of emotional openness. And I just think that's sad and what's w and what's hard is then they have to go back to their lives where they don't have that.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And I just feel like there's so much work to be done. But it can be done so much more effectively if we do it together. And that's why I invest a ton of effort in building community. Like-minded community, because if we can rally around a set of understandings of the nature of the world and values that we consider to be just in kind and, and right. And practices that we share together in order to enjoy and, you know, contend with this complicated life, then I think we're really getting somewhere. And that's why I do this podcast. It's why I do a lot of things. It's, it's why I'm in the nonprofit sector. Professionally, because I want to contribute to a society that is kinder and more just, and more sustainable rather than making widgets or selling widgets or transporting widgets. So. Processing widgets. So I just drew a complete blank. I had something and it left. I hate it when that happened.  Yucca: You had mentioned wanting to talk about your bigs. Mark: Oh yeah. This is something that occurred to me. It's gotta be more than 10 years ago now. I was thinking about wisdom and wisdom is an awkward word. I've, I've actually, I'm working on I've been working for more than a year on a blog post that will eventually be published about wisdom. Wisdom is an awkward word because it's kind of cringy. When we talk about wisdom, people get uncomfortable. They're like, oh, wisdom, you're going to whip some wisdom on me. It's used more sarcastically than anything else, but the truth is that as we age, as we grow, as we have experiences, as we learn things, as we discover more about ourselves, we become wiser. We become. Better able to make the Right. decision to say the right thing at the right time to extend the right kind of kindness to another person and to live our lives in a manner that facilitates our happiness and our growth rather than contravening it, or fording it. It occurred to me that much of my perspective on the world comes down to three axiomatic, big things. And I'll explain what those are now. And I, I just believe that if you can really get at a deep level, these three big things, your life just gets a lot better. So here they are. The first. The big. Okay. And the big, okay. Is simply acceptance of the world as it is. This world is filled with beauty and horror and everything in between. And at some level we have to stop resisting it saying, oh, I wish it were this way. Or I wish I'd done that. Or. You know, you didn't do that. You did something else and the world isn't as you wish it is as it is. And at some level we simply have to accept it in order to be able to encounter it and navigate through it. Now that doesn't mean that we have to accept all conditions. We can still struggle for justice and for equality and for kindness and for sustainability. All of those things are important. So I'm not saying, you know, that in this very Buddhistic sort of sense. We should just, you know, have universal acceptance of everything as it is, but we have to at least acknowledge the fact that that's the way it is. Right. We have to, you have to at least cop to the fact that, you know, like it or not, Donald Trump was elected president. You can argue about what the electoral college process is and all that, but like it or not, that's a fact. So that's the big, okay. And the next is the big, thank you. Which is gratitude for having been gifted. Highly improbable life that each of us has, the odds are astronomically against any one of us in our unique genetic combination and epigenetic experience of being raised would become the person that we are. And it is a treasure. It is the treasure of our existence. And so being able to get to a point of gratitude and seeing all of the many, many, many gifts of beauty and grace and generosity and kindness that we experience in our lives, everything from somebody moving over on the freeway to let you into a lane. To the blooming of a rose in your flower garden in, you know, on a given day.  Yucca: Well, and all the billions of things that you have, that, that died for you to be alive. Right? All the, every little sprout you ate every animal, every egg, every, all of it. Mark: All those sacrifices. And so thank you. Thank you to all of those things. Thank you to everything that contributes to my being here and thank you for all the things that helped to make it beautiful. So that's the big, thank you. And then the last of the three big lessons that I think that if you get them deeply, it helps you to be. A happy person on a path that that will help you to grow consistently is what I call the big. Wow. And that's just all at the nature of the universe. It is in and of this world, particularly the biosphere, it's just all inspiring that this is going on.  Yucca: Yeah. Look at your hand. That's exploded star.  Mark: Yep. It is.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And it's got a a condensed ring of exploded star around it, of supernova product, because you don't get gold without those kinds of pressures. Yeah. The big, Wow. is something that I come back to again and again, and that feeling of awe is. Well, we named the podcast after it, the wonder, right? If you're missing that in your life, go find it because this is amazing. All of this that's going on is just amazing. And you know, I was a pretty depressed kid, but I remember at four years old going to the grand canyon because. Oh my God. Oh my God. The grand canyon. And there's no image that can do it. Justice.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: It's just simply our inspiring. It. It is, it is breathtaking.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So those are my three big keys to finding a way to settle into life where you don't feel like. Where you don't spin your wheels on hypothetical's. You know what, if I had done this, what if, what if life weren't like this? What if this person wasn't like that? You know, that's a lot of energy that you can burn on stuff that just makes you feel bad.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And my atheopagan practice helps bring me into contact with those three lessons a lot. I feel a lot of gratitude in relation to my connection with other people in the community and my my conversations with you and my The, the welcoming that I receive for my, the products of my creative gifts there, and just the simple listening and being there, and the fact that I can help to hold a space where new people coming in feel welcome. And at home. There's this something really lovely about all of that when I'm doing my daily ritual or celebrating one of the Sabbaths around the wheel of the year. A lot of what I reflect on is that, that sense of, okay. Thank you. Wow. Yucca: Yeah. Well, I think that, that those three big, those three bigs, the, okay. Thank you. And wow. Are a good place to wrap up for today.  Mark: Okay. Okay. There's, there's so much more to be said about circumstances of adversity and we're all feeling it. Honestly, we've got COVID we've got the rise of this. The mean-spirited right-wing, which has infiltrated our Supreme court and is threatening to take our rights away. We've got severe economic dislocation and many people are really struggling economically, including me. We've got We've got issues of systemic racism and systemic homophobia and systemic transphobia that continue to burn in our culture and stubbornly do not go away. There, there, there is adversity in the world there and it's  Yucca: of that. Okay.  Mark: yes, yes. Not okay. In that, I think this is acceptable.  Yucca: We're not condoning it. Mark: No, but okay. As in, yes, I recognize this as true.  Yucca: All right here. It is right  Mark: now. What, are we going to do? Yeah.  Yucca: yeah. What, what, what can I do as an individual and what can I not? And the part that I can't that's okay. Right. Not as a way of making an excuse to not be active, but, but understanding that we're, again, we're part of this community, we're part of the system. We are the entirety of it. Mark: Yes. Yes. And when I, I, I will say this when contending with adversity that threatens your survival, it. isn't reasonable to expect somebody to drop everything and go advocate on climate change. Because you have to eat, you have to be sheltered. You know, you, you have to take care of your family. We understood, you know, we understand all of that. It goes to Maslow's hierarchy of values and all that kind of stuff. Right. S creature, and that includes humans will pursue its survival before it pursues other goals. And that is part of what is really challenging about the climate change issue, because in late stage capitalism, where all the resources have been sucked up to the 1%, everybody is struggling and they don't have the bandwidth to address the crisis that's in front of us.  Yucca: Yeah, which ironically is what it's going to make it a lot harder down the line for all of us. Right.  Mark: so kudos to everybody. That is a climate activist. Thank you. Thank you for all the work that you do and to the elected officials that are on the right side on that issue worldwide. But also don't beat yourself. That you're not solving the world's problems when you have your own problems directly in front of you. it's not helpful and it's not kind to yourself. And if, if you don't take anything away from this podcast episode, other than this be kind to yourself. So thank you, Jaco. Yucca: Thank you. Mark: a good conversation. Yeah.  Yucca: next week we will be back already with our it will be our souls to sewed, right. Mark: Yeah. The Midsummer episode, for sure.  Yucca: Cause we always try and get it the week before. So it's not the episode isn't coming out the day of. So, that gives people time to kind of think and reflect on what they, what they want to do and all of that. So, We're halfway through.  Mark: Yeah. Amazing. We've reflect we've remarked on this before how the last two years seem like they're simultaneously 30 years long and like, they just went by in an eye blink. It's  Yucca: yeah, Mark: very odd. Weird. Anyway, folks, thank you so much. We'll see you next week. Bye-bye.  

Here's the link to the blog post: https://atheopaganism.wordpress.com/2022/05/21/reintegration/   Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E19 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to the wonder science-based paganism. I'm one of your hosts Yucca.  Mark: And I'm the other one, mark. Yucca: And this week we're talking about reintegrating. With normal life after you've had some kind of experience like a retreat, which we're going to be talking about. The one we were just on or a really impactful ritual or something like that. Mark: There's a lot that happens in our brains when we go through these transformational peak experiences. And there are things that we can do to kind of smooth our transition back into the ordinary routines of our life and to make that emotional transition easier. So we're going to talk about that stuff today.  Yucca: And to be bringing some of that with us too, right. To not just be closing the door and saying that was one experience. Now, now I'm back to my other one, but being able to bring, bring the things with us that we want from that while still not living in that space all the time. Because as, as much as we want to. That's not what every day life isn't. It probably wouldn't be very good for us if that was the case anyways, to be in that open and raw and kind of heightened of experience. Mark: Yes. And I mean, it can be dangerous. One of the things that happens when we're really kind of blown open that way is that we tend to be really focused on our internal experience. and we can make clumsy mistakes.  Yucca: Merging into a lane that has somebody in  Mark: has somebody in it. Exactly. So operating heavy machinery is not advisable immediately after going through some kind of impactful experience like that. So we're going to talk about all that, but let's start with a little reporting about the century retreat that happened last weekend, that we were both at it. was. A very powerful experience for me. The people were so kind and so open and so growth-oriented, and so no nonsense in the sense of critical thinking and science orientation. It was really, I, I, I saw this group of people. Gathered. And it was exactly the same as the picture in my mind of the non theist paganism community that I have always hoped for.  Yucca: yeah. It was pretty amazing. It was it was just so interesting. All of the different types of people and yet the things that many of us had in common. I personally really appreciated being around other pagan parents. And talking about just the kind of, you know, the one that, just the connection, the human connection, but also having those same kinds of themes and talking about, you know, how these were the things that we were balancing or in our families and considerate and family considerations. Because that's something that I don't find as much discussion of that in the online spaces, because there's so many different kinds of people, right. But the family orientation, isn't usually the main focus that I find in pagan spaces. Mark: That's really true. And I think it's especially true in in physical in-person gathered spaces because pretends to be a lot of focus on adult activity And you know, just adults playing the way adults like to play.  Yucca: There's practical reasons for that, right? Yeah. Mark: For sure. That said If this is going to be a multi-generational movement, you have to incorporate the next generations. Right. And so there has to be a place for children and there has to be things for them to do. And the, the rituals, the symbolic activities need to be comprehensible. To children, there needs to be some reason why they would participate. So I was super glad that we had a, a workshop. Building a wheel of the year with your family. For example, John Cleveland hosts workshop. And there were fun activities like body painting and things like that, that you know, face painting and all that good stuff that would make a lot of sense to a little kid.  Yucca: Yeah, well, and one of my kiddos was there and she was just delighted and is still, you know, it's still high off the experience of it. And everyone, I was just blown away at how incredible the whole community was just so welcoming with her. And I think she wanted to drop to adopt everyone.  Mark: Okay.  Yucca: So they were just amazing. Mark: Well, she wasn't alone. I mean, I kind of feel like I want to do adopt everyone too. And that is, I mean, honestly, that is really what we're talking about in this podcast is that, that deep connected sense and this sort of longing and loss that happens when you separate and go your, your diverse ways. There's a reason why we feel that. And it's because when we have. That deep human contact. And we feel, we feel a kinship with other people. There's a hormone called oxytocin that gets released into our brains and oxytocin is about pair bonding and hyper-focus and it has. It has a number of different functions, but particularly it's the love hormone. It's the thing that gets released a lot. When you feel a deep affinity with another person.  Yucca: Right. It's it's that mammalian connection.  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: I think that the oxytocin is in non mammals as well, but it plays different roles in different kinds of creatures, but, and mammals, that's the, that's our bonding. Right. You know? Mark: Yeah. And by the time century retreat ended and it was only three days I felt really bonded with the people in this group. You know? we had shared common struggles. We had  Yucca: How old is the moon. Mark: how, how old are they at the eclipsing  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And shared this experience together of doing these workshops, doing these rituals, sharing meals together. The whole thing was really quite an adventure. And so now the challenge is how do you integrate. What you've learned and experienced from that into your daily life, but also really get your feet back on the ground in your daily life.  Yucca: Right. And there's, I mean, there's different approaches that I think are all important, but one of the first ones is remembering that we are our bodies and then. When we go through experiences like that, or again, maybe like a, just a really intense ritual or something like that, that we need to take care of ourselves on that really practical level. Something like a longer experience like that I personally was quite sleep deprived. I think Marcie stayed up quite, quite a bit later than I did.  Mark: I did. I stayed up til about three o'clock in the morning on both Saturday and Sunday nights.  Yucca: and then. Breakfast at eight.  Mark: Breakfast at eight 30. Yeah. I didn't feel sleep deprived in the moment.  Yucca: And then, Mark: I'm sure, because of all the sort of neuro-transmitter hormonal stuff going on. But once we started driving home, which was two and a half days for me and the,  Yucca: yeah. Mark: guys that I drove home with I was dozing in the car and slept really hard the first night because I was so sleep deprived, but sleep deprivation is actually something that contributes to that vulnerable emotional state.  Yucca: Right. But once you come out on the other side, There may be some catching up to do, right. Really take a look at that sleep hygiene. All of those things that, that are important on an everyday basis, but especially when you're coming out of that vulnerable state, you're going to really want to. If you can try and protect that time. Nope. This is the time for the sleeping and whatever it is that you do to help yourself with that, the sleep masks or dark rooms or the temperature, all of those, you know, turning off the screens and that sort of thing.  Mark: And at the same time, be aware that sleep deprivation can significantly impairs our response times, our eye, hand coordination, a lot of different physical attributes. So it's important, you know, maybe the day after you get back from something like this, maybe you don't get behind the wheel of a car  Yucca: If possible. Yeah.  Mark: And  Yucca: of those things we don't, we don't see it in ourselves. The studies are really clear that our self perception versus the outside objective. Perception of, of us is very different when it comes to sleep deprivation.  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Yes. So it's easy to tell yourself. Oh, I'm fine. You're not fine. And it's important to just, you know, go with your knowledge that you're not fine, even if it feels as though you're fine and take care of yourself do what you can to be safe. And, and I would say that that's true at two levels. It's true at the level of your body is health, but it's also true of your heart of your, of your emotions because. When you come out of an experience like that, you can be very tender and very vulnerable and you can get hurt easily. And it takes a while to kind of put back up the ordinary callouses that we have to protect ourselves from little things that might affect us otherwise. It's, it's really a strange experience for me this week because I haven't had this kind of experience for quite a while. I mean, I've been to other sort of festivals where I had. Some of this experience, but I've never been to an event where I felt such complete kinship with the people. You know, that we're, we're self-selected to be people who are non theist pagans, and being surrounded by a big crowd of those folks was really profound to me. And so I miss it now. Right. But I have to keep marching on in my life and doing light life things and it ebbs day by day. And so a part of the way that I have approached this is besides just trying to take care of my physical self is to be in touch over social media as best I can with the people who were there. And I also wrote a blog post about reintegration to sort of walk through my own experience of this because I suspected that many of the rest of us were having the same kind of experience.  Yucca: Right. Yeah. So we'll put the link for that. If people want to check that out, the blog post cap. Mark: Yeah. So, as, as Yucca said, this is, you know, it's, doesn't have to be a big multi-day festival that affects you this way. It can be a really heavy therapy session. You know, where something really shifts or you realize that something has been really stirred up. The same kinds of self-care activities are really important to do at this time. Anything that really goes to your deep emotions and stirs up your limbic system in that, in that intense kind of way. These are the same things we need to do for ourselves. When we go through a breakup.  Yucca: Great. Mark: If it's a breakup that we didn't want or a break up that still causes a lot of loss and regret for us, not the kind of breakup where you're like. Thanks, bye. Just go away now.  Yucca: I mean, I know those exist. I've heard about them, but I have never experienced it that way.  Mark: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  Yucca: but that's something that ritual can help with.  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: If, well, it's really great if all the parties involved but even if it's just you and you want to have a ritual about that, that's something that, that can be very helpful. Mark: Yeah, I have conducted a dissolution ritual and it was really pretty powerful, you know, the separate, the symbolic separation of the lives of the two people so that they could go off in opposite directions. It was, it was a powerful thing to do. And of course the trick there is to see whether all the participating parties will actually show up to do the thing. And you know, in some cases, one or both of them are one or, or more of them are mad. And so they won't do what the other person wants them to do, even if it would be good for them. But it's, it's something, you know, if, if a disillusion is coming in your life, it is something to consider whether you do it for yourself or whether you do it with the, the people that you're splitting up with. So, Yeah. the, this is re this really goes to kind of the care and feeding of the tender parts of ourselves and. You know, we live in a world that can be pretty harsh at times. I mean, certainly just turning on the news can be just like, oh, ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And so it's very important, especially if we've done some significant emotional, psychological work to care for ourselves in all those different ways. And that can also mean connecting with other people that are in our ordinary lives. You know, getting some of that, that bonding feeling with people that were already connected to.  Yucca: Right. And that's also for folks who have. Who live with non-human animals, like our cats and dogs and, and creatures like that, that we definitely share these really deep connections with you know, your, your good cuddle per session can definitely assist in kind of, you know, easing out of that experience. Mark: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So it's, it's funny while I was gone, our cat was apparently extremely needy and, and cuddly with pneumonia. And now that I'm back, she's extremely needy and cuddly with both of us in a way that she wasn't before. But she. Her initial response. When I came back, was this sort of outreach, Meow, like where have you been? So that was, that was good.  Yucca: That's good. I'm glad you didn't get the the I'm mad at you. Snub cats do sometimes like, oh the, to you, I wasn't hurt or mad that you left.  Mark: Right,  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And the other thing you can do is you can, without being obsessive about it, you can, you know, create some reminders for yourself about that experience and what you loved about it. My desktop image Right. now is the group photo that we took at the end of century retreat, just so that I can see those faces and remember. You know, the many great interactions that I had over the course of that weekend, particularly the rites of passage section, which was just a really moving, moving set of rituals and ended with a wedding, which is always upbeat and happy. And that was good.  Yucca: Yeah. that we, we took a few items. There were, you know, gifts that people had, but we also picked up, we just took a few pine cones  Mark: I took a pine cone to.  Yucca: and we live somewhere with a lot of pine cones, but these pine cones got to go in a special spot. And so, you know, there to. That's who experienced it. We know what those pine cones are. Those specific ones have a important meaning to us. But if someone else was to walk into the house it's oh, there's there's pine cone over there and there's 20 more over there. But no, but these ones, you know, there's they still have that feeling right. When we look at them like, Ooh. Yeah, right. Okay. That whole thing that's that's real right. That's part, that's part of us. Hmm. Mark: And it's great to do that too, because that's a part of teaching your kids about ritual creation, Right. I mean, these, these pine cones became sacred objects because they're symbolic of a particular experience. And. That's a great thing to teach kids because then they can choose their own, make their own, start to develop a ritual practice. Yucca: Right. So let's touch on a couple of other specific things that people might want to keep in mind. We talked about the sleep they're talking about also, maybe not just related to the sleep, but if you can avoid getting behind. Car the wheel of a car or heavy machinery, things like that. But you might also be a little bit more mindful with making sure that you're getting a meal that is going to be, you know, not be spiking, your blood sugar really high and making you super hyper and, you know, taking care of getting whatever the food is. That really feels good and grounding to you, you know, be mindful about, okay, maybe that's going to be more appropriate than.  Mark: Right.  Yucca: Going through your fast food or whatever it is. Mark: and the impulse may be because there's this sort of longing to get back to this high place. The impulse may be to go for sugar or caffeine or energy drinks or whatever those things are.  Yucca: try and fill it in.  Mark: Yeah. And that's, you know, that is an impulse that honestly should be resisted. It's, it's much better to get something that's solid and wavy and grounding into you. So that you can. Get get your head straight again in a way that balances the experience that you've had with the life theater in. And then there are creative things that you can do, like writing or songwriting or you know, even spoken word just into a tape recorder about what your experience was like, what you learned, how that. Can impact your life going forward. I really feel that the people who went to this event were changed. I know I was, and now I'm exploring how was I changed?  Yucca: Right. Yeah. I certainly know that was the case for me coming home and, and, you know, greeted my, greeted my land coming back and, you know, went inside wherever. Partner and, and youngest child were, and, and cat who was very happy to see us. But I, you know, I remember sitting back down on, on the, the sitting down on the couch and just thinking about some of the things that had really come up for me and re and about the way that people treated each other was just so. Amazing and refreshing and welcoming and, and kind right. And  Mark: kind.  Yucca: tenfold like, like they really paid attention. Right. And that was something I remember sitting down and going, okay. I, that felt good. That felt feeding. How do I make sure that that's something that I continue to have in my life because wow. That was really. That helped. Right. I'm an introvert. I don't spend time around a lot of people, but, and so on one level, it was that that whole weekend was incredibly exhausting for me just to be around people. But it also was very interesting to go, wow, human interaction can be feeding. How do you know, how do I do this? How do I make sure that this continues in my life? And so there's this whole period of, of, of. Evaluation and reflection after an experience like that. Mark: Right. Right. And that's an essential part of the reintegration, honestly, because you don't want to lose the. The lesson content from the experience right? I mean, there's the whole emotional journey that happens with an event like this, but there's also stuff you learn about yourself and about what you want in life. And. Humanity generally and how humans can be. One of the things that was really striking to me from the very beginning, like the first person that. I saw, which was Rachel at the registration table actually it was before the registration table had been set up. It was Rachel and joy and joy I had met before, but everybody was on it about consent immediately.  Yucca: Right. Mark: Everybody asked before hugging. Everybody asked before a handshake and we didn't have to make any kind of announcement about it. That's just what they were doing.  Yucca: Yeah. And that was so refreshing. From as an individual, but as a parent as well that no, buddy, it was so nice. Nobody touched my kid without asking her if that was okay. Right. And of course she was like, yeah. Right. But then also having her be around just seeing everybody do that and that isn't just like what mom is telling her to do. That's just like what everybody is doing, you know, that was so. Wonderful that we weren't, you know, it wasn't like we were fighting to try and like make this the way that it should be. That's just the way it was. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, the implications of that to me have a lot to do with what humanity is capable, capable of. You know, it's, it's, it's so easy to be despairing about humanity right now because we've got some people that are really pretty lost and pretty damaged and you know, doing a lot of harm.  Yucca: Yeah, we've got a lot of trauma that we're working through.  Mark: we do. And part of what was so powerful about this event was that people came with their trauma and they were unapologetic about it, and they were really open about it. The ritual that I did after my workshop the absolution ritual, which you were not involved with you, you weren't in that workshop.  Yucca: No that I so since I had my kiddo with me, we did need to step aside sometimes to do some naps and just do some breathing. Right. Because please for us, that being there was like being in the middle of the civilization. It's very strange how different people feelings were about it, but it was like being surrounded by people. And we were like, whoa, lots of people let's go breathe for a minute. And that's the part that's also part of taking care of yourself is recognizing that like, You know, this is this an open raw, so there were some things that I've missed a lot of the rites of passage and those kinds of Brits rules, but the, from what I've heard, I mean, people were just so much to say about them. Mark: Yeah. The, there were just a number of times when. You know, given, given an inflection point, given a moment when they could either step forward in their human imperfect wounded glory, or step back and protect themselves and be defensive, they chose the first over and over and over again. And this ritual that I did at the end of my. My workshop on how to create an atheopagan ritual is called the absolution. And I've done it several times before. And in a nutshell, what it's about is we have people imagined, just focus and think about the most cringe-worthy moment of their life. So the moment that they feel the most shame, the most embarrassment about, and just hold that in their mind, and then. Ritually one at a time, absolve them of that, make it go away. Have it, have it have its power and its weight. Fade away from their body. It's very simple, but I mean, people have tears streaming down their face and I was, you know, fighting not to cry because there was so much emotion in the room. It was, it was just remarkable. And I mean, I know that for the people that went through that ritual, there was a, there was a real change in them. And to me, that's just like, okay, all of this stuff, all of this non theist, paganism, atheopagan ism, all this stuff that I'm doing is absolutely worth it for that moment. For the moment of realizing that you've, you've lightened the load for your fellow humans, it, it felt. Well, I wouldn't say this. It's not that it felt like a community. It was a community Yucca: Is, Yeah. Mark: Is, a community. Almost none of us had ever seen one another in person before, because we came from all over. We had people from Canada, we had someone from Mexico. We had people from all over the United States and,  Yucca: impressed how far some folks came. Yeah. Mark: People were ready for this. They were, they were, you know, the people that, that came. to this event were like, Yeah. this is, this is the direction I'm going. And I'm going to, I'm going to jump in with both feet.  Yucca: Yeah. And a few folks told me that, and this was just so heartwarming to hear that the podcast actually helped them like that. That was kind of the thing that got them to, to, you know, take the chance and, and come. And it was just. That was just so wonderful to hear. Mark: Yes. Yes. I think we were talking about one person that you're going to get together with their kids and your kids.  Yucca: Oh yeah. Mark: I'm pretty sure that person had first encountered you on YouTube and then heard about the podcast and from the podcast came into the atheopagan community.  Yucca: Yeah. I think I'll have to check with them, but I think that. That's the case. Yeah. And so that's something nice to a lot of a lot of us who are kind of close to each other. Now that person, I we're about six hours apart, but we figured three hours driving each way. Does it sound so bad? Right. But there's people in the, in the areas are already talking about, well, what we can do in the meantime, right? Cause we're not going to do another full one until 20, 24. But we could still get together on, you know, smaller groups and that sort of thing.  Mark: Right. Well, we, you know, we have that affinity group program. Many of which are regional groups, and I know that the Colorado group is really focused on getting together and doing things together now. So, that's, that's exciting. One thing that was the. There was a brainstorm in the car while we were driving home is the possibility that we could pick a weekend that would be kind of atheopagan affinity group gathering weekend.  Yucca: Oh, I see where you're going with this. I like this. Okay. Mark: And I mean, we could have t-shirts made right. You know, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. And so it would be the same weekend, but the groups would gather like, you know, my local affinity group, which is called the live Oak circle is the Northern California affinity group. We could gather on that weekend at a local park and do a ritual.  Yucca: And I'm sure folks from a little bit further away would be welcome as well if they didn't have. Right. So you might get your Oregon or Washington people who are like, well, this is the closest and I'd love to see. Yeah. Mark: So there's, there's lots of ideas about what could be done in the off year. I speaking from the standpoint of having helped to organize this event, we can't do it every year. It's just too exhausting. I think it would be too much money for people if we ask them to come every year  Yucca: Well, I think every other is now my daughter disagrees, but I think it's a waste. But as an adult, our perception of time is a little bit different than, than when you're a kid. I mean, 20, 24 is for forever away.  Mark: that's right. Yeah. Well, think about it. That's a third of her life, right? I  Yucca: yeah. Mark: that's, that's you know, for me that would be 20 years,  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: so that's a long time. That's a really long time. What else do we have to say about this?  Yucca: Yeah. I think really the, the main thesis is thinking about how to care for yourself as you transition between these two kind of worlds that this, that Eve experienced. They're both real. Right. But. Just thinking about in your own life though, how to be mindful about that. And there might be some little rituals to bring in. One thing we've talked about so much before is the idea of grounding that that's important in everyday life, but especially in points of transition.  Mark: Right,  And. there are, there are little ritual, symbolic things, as you say that we can do, I'm still wearing my registration. Century symbol from the event?  Yucca: And that was a really lovely touch to everybody. Got one of the, the sun tree. It it's burned, right? We're at, yeah,  Mark: Yes, it's  Yucca: Yeah. A little  Mark: wood burned into a, a little wooden. Medallion. Yeah. So we were all wearing those and it was, it was cool. So yes on the one hand, I would not want this. Podcasts to in any way, dissuade people from seeking these kinds of experiences because they enrich our lives so much and they help us to become wiser and kinder and more. More whole, right. The heal, our wounds. So if we've in any way implied that it's a problem that you have this reintegration experience. I, I, I wanna make it clear. That's not what we're saying. It's it, the, the experience of going to this retreat for me was an unequivocal. Good.  Yucca: Right  Now on the, on the other hand, we're also not saying that you have to do something like this, right? That if this is something you do, it's can be amazing and wonderful. But you can still be an atheopagan. You can still be whatever you are, even if the. Even if being able to go to one of these things, just isn't where you're at right now. Cause I know there were a lot of folks who really would have loved to come, but didn't have the means to travel or didn't know the schedule wasn't going to work or whatever. Right.  Mark: Right. Which actually brings me to another idea, which we haven't really, this was a brainstormed idea in the car and we haven't really talked about this at all at the atheopagan council or anything, but a possible. Would be to have a virtual event maybe in January of 2024. I'm sorry, 20, 23. Yeah. We could do workshops. We could have fellowship, all that kind of stuff over zoom. So it would be, you know, possible for people to attend and still get, you know, a little bit of that, that hit of the person that interaction.  Yucca: That's a really lovely idea. Yeah.  Mark: And it'd be a lot easier to organize.  Yucca: yes. A lot less expensive and could allow more people to possibly participate. But yeah, so basically like, a big you know, co conference or webinar kind of style through zoom.  Mark: Yeah, And we, you know, we could have some breakout rooms where people could fo could, could socialize, you know, we'd have big blocks of time available just for people to interact and say hi and introduce themselves and all that good kind of stuff. So I think that. An idea that has some real legs. And I'd like to talk about it at our next atheopagan society council meeting, which happens at the end of June. But we'll see, you know, we'll see what there is the capacity to create. I know the organizers of this event, myself included put in a lot of work and  Yucca: and did an amazing job.  Mark: well, thanks.  Yucca: you know, everything again, I just keep using the word blown away, but that really. That's that's the sense that I'm coming away with is just everything. I was just blown away by the people and the, how well it was organized and the welcomeness and experience and, and the location was an amazing location. Mark: Yeah, with that beautiful view of Pike's peak Right. there. Yucca: Right. Mark: And the food and the kindness of the staff, you know, the accommodation to dietary considerations, they were just so great about all that.  Yucca: And it was, it was, it felt remote. And yet we were like 10 minutes from .  Mark: yeah.  Yucca: Right? Like, and there were a lots of there's so much life there. That was really fun. There were these swirls. I loved watching the squirrels with the really long ears and the Yeah. And just watching them run up these how tall those Ponderosa is worth. Those were tall  Mark: they were.  Yucca: and down these, you know, we have, ponderosas where I am too, but not, not like those ones.  Mark: Yeah, it's pretty, pretty clear. They they get a little more water than where you are, I think.  Yucca: I think they got a lot more water  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: here. Yeah. And they did the, they did a lovely job. Maintaining the area and there was this huge labyrinth and it was just, yeah. Anyways, that we could, we could just keep going on about like all the wonderful things.  Mark: Yeah. but shout out to love for a retreat center in Colorado Springs because they were wonderful. It's, it's actually owned by the United church of Christ, which is a very liberal Christian denomination and a part of their mission is that they're welcoming to everybody.  Yucca: And it certainly felt that way. Every, you know, every staff member that I had any interaction with or watched interacting with anyone else just, just seemed very kind and, and open and  Mark: Yeah, glad we were there.  Yucca: yeah.  Mark: Yeah. Yeah. And we were too. So I think that's it for this week's episode of the one. Yucca: And we appreciate all of you being here with us and we'll see you next week.

May Celebrations That Aren't About Sex: https://atheopaganism.wordpress.com/2019/04/10/may-celebrations-that-arent-about-sex/ How's that Maypole Thing Work?: https://atheopaganism.wordpress.com/2018/04/22/hows-that-maypole-thing-work/ https://theapsocietyorg.wordpress.com/community/ Beltane 2020 Episode: https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/e/its-beltane/ Beltane 2021 Episode: https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/e/beltanemay-day/   S3E15 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to the wonder science-based paganism. I'm one of your hosts. Yucca  Mark: and I'm the other one, Mark. Yucca: and today we're talking may day Beltane second spring, all of those, whatever name you call it. Mark: Yay. Summer is a coming in. And winter's gone away. Oh  Yucca: It is, I, we were just saying, this is actually our third may day episode that we'll be doing.  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: So we'll put the links to the other ones. If you want to check those out as well for inspiration and things like that, we'll probably talk about a lot of the same things this time around is that's one of the things about it was cyclical holiday year, right? We come back to some of the same themes each year, but hopefully there'll be some new things in this episode as well. Mark: Sure for sure. Especially because you know, now at this particular moment, we are in a place where we're sort of gingerly, tentatively coming out of COVID.  Yucca: I think we've said this so many times.  Mark: I know, I know. And who knows? I mean, there, there could be another variant that. Pigs the needle again, but I really hope that this around this time, when it seems that the numbers are generally low, people can have gatherings in person And, celebrate because in most places in the Northern hemisphere, the weather is beautiful and it's just a really lovely time of year. Yucca: And, and it's a holiday that is often associated with outdoor activity. Unlike say the winter solstice where it's a lot of it's about being bundled up and inside and cozy and sharing drinks with each other. And. You know,  Mark: right,  Yucca: has more of an outdoor, you know, in the park bonfire, those of you who live near the beach. Bet, that would be amazing know fire on the beach. Maybe that would be wonderful, but yeah. Mark: The. The image that I have in relation to Mayday or Beltane . And we're going to talk about naming in a minute has to do with emergence into the outdoors. It's like, you know, we've spring arrives in at different times in different places based on climb in elevation and, and All of those different factors. But by the beginning of may, mostly. It's comfortable to go outside and there's this kind of exuberance about getting out from the walls and, you know, out into the sun and experiencing the bright new leaves of the foliage and All that wonderful stuff. So it's just, there's a, there's an enthusiasm about this holiday that I really love.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So let's talk about names cause we've got a bunch of them, the the, the word bell team, which is used by most of the pagan community to, to designate this holiday. And we'll talk about what defines the holiday in a sec comes from the Irish bail to. Which is actually just the name of a month. It's the name of the month of may. And there's a similar word in Scott's Irish as in Scott's Gaelic as well. And both of those are often used as You know, kind of placeholder for the beginning of may holiday. But I don't actually use those Celtic names myself because I don't. Yucca: You don't have a specifically Celtic practice.  Mark: I I don't. And and I also deliberately sort of stripped cultural references out of my practice when I started doing atheopagan ism, because I wanted to avoid any possibility of cultural appropriation, which we're going to talk about in a future episode. And and I wanted there to be kind of a blank slate for people to create their own new traditions and symbols and all that kind of stuff.  Yucca: Sure and add, add to it. What is part of what's meaningful to them?  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: Right. Yeah. And no, and not saying at all that there's anything bad or wrong with any of the Celtic stuff. I mean, that's a big deal for my family. Right? We were, we identify as Celtic American, you know, we, we speak one of the Celtic languages. Actually my daughter was really interested in learning Irish because that was her grandpa's first language when he was little and in the home. When she was given some choices about what do you want to learn now? She didn't want to learn mom's language. She wanted to learn graph is language. So she's been learning it. And I'm in the background. I've been picking up on it a little bit. Right. Which is really very, quite fun to see the differences between the languages. So. So just to emphasize to everybody, this is not in any way of saying like, oh, like the Celtic side is bad or whatever. It's like, no, we're just saying, you know, everybody's going to be different. Their backgrounds are going to be different. My family happens to have a strong connection to that side of, of, of our heritage and, you know, for other people that's not their heritage or not a part that they connect with. Right. And that's totally fine. But the name Beltane is, is used pretty. Widely and much of the kind of Neo pagan community. Mark: Right. And, and it bears saying that we need to acknowledge that new modern Neo paganism, mostly stemmed from. You know, Gerald Gardner in the 1930s and forties and early fifties. And so it CA it was kind of a UK Britain, England centric.  Yucca: Yeah, well, he was English.  Mark: he was English. And so that was the lens that he was looking at everything through. And a lot of what we have inherited from those traditions is very Anglocentric,  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: but paganism in and of itself inherently in terms of a relationship with the earth and and a ritual practice. That's key to the seasons of the year that, that. It's everybody and it has no language and it there's no particular culture that, that slotted to. So here's this holiday and it's defined as the mid point between the spring Equinox and the summer solstice. So it's. Yucca: It's the other side from, from Salween or  Mark: Or Hallows.  Yucca: So, yeah. Mark: exactly. So, and there are lots of cool parallels that you can do with those opposite sides of the year where built-in is often associated with sexuality and kind of life and vitality and fertility and all that kind of stuff. And Hallows is associated with death and decomposition and fallow fields and all that kind of stuff. Right. So you've got the, kind of the polar ends of the, the human experience happening there. So what are some other names that we use? I, I say may day, which is a little problematic, because what if you're celebrating? Not on May 1st.  Yucca: Right. There's made a, and there's also the association. I usually say Mayday as well or second spring. But there's the labor. Wright's association with may day as well. That comes up for a lot of people, which I think was a, was purposeful. And the, when that was chosen. But for some people they don't who aren't part of the pagan community. They don't know the pagan association and they only have the, the labors rights  Mark: Right, right. There's an interesting thing about international worker's day, which is May 1st which is that the United States deliberately put its workers day at the end of summer. In order to avoid engagement with those socialists and communists who were celebrating international workers' day on May 1st. So we have our labor day on the first weekend in September and nobody else does, but when those holidays were being defined like today there was a lot of fear around, you know, communism. So that's, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: how it happened. So, Yeah. Mayday or a second spring is another good one. I know that that's how you celebrate your, your holidays in terms of first and second seasons for each, each quadrant. And so let's talk a little bit about, you know, what the themes are and, and how we celebrate it. And then talk about some specific ritual things that we can do.  Yucca: All right. Well, there's definitely. Like you were talking about this coming out, this emergence, this, you know, waking up around it. For us, we think about it a lot as well for the annual plants, because this is the time where. You're getting the gardens going. I mean, our last for us usually isn't until the 15th, we'll still have a couple good frosts. And of course the fruit trees that aren't from this area are all blooming already. And going here we are. You know, zapped by another frost. But we definitely associate it with, okay, here are the, the annual plants that are coming back, the things that we're planting in the garden and the the flowering plants and all of our, you know, our Forbes and things like that. And the color. So it's still kind of blend. Sometimes the holidays blend a little bit. The last one for us was more about the birds and the feathers, but there were bright colors with that. And then coming into this, more of the colors and just again, that, that awake, that youthful that, you know, here we are,  Mark: Yes, everything's so, so fresh and new and sex is everywhere that trees and plants are all kind of hanging their parts out there saying, come and get me. And it's, it's just a very vital, very central kind of time. The air is perfumed in many places with the smell of all the different kinds of flowering plants. We just had  Yucca: clouds of Paul and the go by  Mark: Yes. Yes, exactly.  Yucca: clouds  Mark: Yeah, you can't can't help, but get it all over you. And if you have allergies, it's miserable. So it's, you know, it's a time when the world is really vital and even in desert climates, the world is really vital. I mean, the, the desert is palpably green. When you look out after the rainy season and, and after the snows have melted and you can see that things are really genuinely green they're there. They're not like tropical green, but they're definitely. Is  Yucca: like it does after winter?  Mark: I'm sure. Yeah. Where it's black and white  Yucca: Oh yeah.  Mark: it.  Yucca: Yeah. Even so even in places or even, especially in places in brittle environments, there's just such a change between one season to another.  Mark: Sure.  Yucca: just, the more you tune into it. I noticed for me every single year, I mean, I've lived in other places, but I came back to where I'm, where I'm from. Even growing up here every year, I noticed something different and new despite by being out and hanging out outside and just paying attention. Mark: Yeah. There's I mean, life itself is opportunistic, right? Life, life is always looking to worm its way into whatever niche it can find in order to thrive. But right now there's so much opportunity for so many different kinds of organisms and they all kind of pop at once. And so you get this, this feeling of genuine exuberance and delight. From from the world, you know, everything's doing its thing and seems pretty happy about it. So, you know, that may be me anthropomorphizing my plant environments, but there's a, there's a. There's a way that that it seems enthusiastic. I go back to that word again and again Beltane or Mayday. Isn't an enthusiastic holiday. And in, in my wheel of the year, I associated a lot with young adulthood. Where there's lots of energy things are brand new and you're kind of trying them out because, you know, oh, wow, look, I've got these leaves which I didn't have right. A month ago. I've got all this, this new agency as a young adult, I can make decisions for myself. I, I have power that I didn't have before. I have autonomy that I didn't have before. And so I'm going to experiment. I'm going to try new things. I'm going to. Make friends I'm going to connect sexually and explore myself and find out what works for me and how that whole dynamic works with other people. So it's there's, there's just a lot of, of of, of trying and getting it done happening around this time of year.  Yucca: Yeah. Yeah. I definitely feel that too. Mark: So, it's a glad time and it's not a surprise to me that the Christians decided to put their Easter right around this time, because there is a general feeling of. Of thankfulness for having gotten through the winter and have joy in the beauty of nature as it's blooming in front of us, that comes at this time of year. And while their themes are a little bit different in terms of salvation and resurrection and all that kind of stuff. The resurrection piece works well with dormant plants coming back to life and all that the salvation piece. Pagans don't have anything to do with, we got nothing to do with that.  Yucca: At least most of us don't, there's, you know, there's a lot of different kinds of pagans.  Mark: That's certainly true, but the, but the joyfulness, you know, there's a, there's a sense, even in the Christian Canon of this kind of joy and relief, right? Oh, we've been saying. Hooray. Whereas, you know, we don't feel like we need to be saved from anything but freezing and starving to death as pagans, but but we're really nonetheless that we didn't starve to death.  Yucca: I like that sun being higher in the sky. That is great. We got a lot of sun here, but it was getting a bit much in the winter. The winter lasts a bit long. Mark: Yeah. There's something about February, especially, that's Just really, really rough. It just,  Yucca: ah, let's keep rolling. Mark: Yeah. it, it won't last forever, even though it feels like it's already lasted forever.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: So, shall we go into some ritual things that we can do or what our practices are? Yucca: So, I mean, before we go into specifically rituals, are there types of things that you're doing this time of year, just that, or are your sort of may day-ish season things that you do? Mark: Well, I like to get flowers in the house. And we just had our wisteria bloom along our back fence. And that of course smells delicious. And it's these beautiful cascades of purple blossoms and they're there they're mostly done now, but they were just so pretty when, when they were  Yucca: months ahead of us. Ours here will not flown for another few weeks probably. Yeah.  Mark: So there, there was that, and we've got roses blooming, and we've got Calla lilies, and there's an, there's a beautiful. purple Iris. That's growing in one of our wine barrels right now. So there's just. You know, paying attention to all that. Once again, we come back to paying attention, but really acknowledging, wow, it's just awfully good to be here. And there's a lot of beauty around that's, that's really the primary thing for me for this, this holiday, that, and I feel my body waking up. I, I have a higher sex drive. I have a Bigger appetite. I, I feel, and I, I'm kinda antsy about sitting around, I, I wanna leave the house and go and do things and all that kind of stuff. So, there's, there's just this kind of, I don't know, coming out of hibernation and being hungry, sort of quality to it as well.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: How about you?  Yucca: Well, it's a busy time of the year for us. And a lot of it is the focused on, again, not just going back out, we always change out colors in the, in the house. And that's kind of a gradual process of changing. I mean, it's the sort of thing we'd be doing anyways. The types of curtains we've got up during the winter are different than the ones we've got up in during the summer. And you know, changing out what's on the couch and all of that. And this year it's been quite fun because this is our. First like real season where we're at. And so we planted in the fall, we planted a bunch of perennials and I'm seeing which ones made it because that's one of the things of making it through that first winter. And I took some chances with things. This is not from our climate at all, but I thought I'll give it a shot. I have, there's a couple of little microclimates on our property. And so I tried some Papas, some American Papas and I'm going okay. So they, you know, they feel, find them in like, you know, New York, upstate New York, which is colder than us and they survive there. Mark: right.  Yucca: So three of the five I planted made it. Right. So that's, you know, We'll see how they feel about our summers, but  Mark: Right. Right. And they may, and they, may be a bit thirsty too. They may, they may want a lot more water than your desert plants.  Yucca: Well, I plan to do them in an area that gets that has some it's for us, a wet area drains into it. Yeah. And then it's so fun every year because the kids are getting older and coming into really being like people now. And my daughter's just making up all kinds of holidays. Right. And the reptiles are. So we've decided that we spent the winter learning about the different mammals in our area. And now we decided it's time to learn about the different lizards that we have. And there's all kinds of lizards that are here. And there's a whole bunch that I'm going. I don't know how I'm going to tell the difference between these three species. Cause they all look the same. You're telling me there's a little red dot behind one of their ears. Okay. So, That again, just that sort of bringing the spring in and bringing the humans out. Right. The humans out of that house, we're living half outdoors again. So yeah, Mark: Nice. Yes. So. So why don't we go into some specific rituals that we like to do around this time? One of the things that I do when I, you know, seasonally redecorate my, my focus, my altar is I have some ribbons that are from a maypole dance that I did years ago. And there's a, there's a portion of a tree branch. That's. My focus sits up about 10 inches high. And so I drape, I've tied them together at one end and I drape these ribbons over the top of this branch so that it becomes like a little maypole. There. And we also have embroidery hoops that we have glued ribbons, colored, colorful ribbons around the top of, so, and then we cut them off. Three feet long or even longer. So what you end up with is this ring that you can hang from a tree and it's got all these beautiful ribbons hanging down from it that wave in the wind. And we put those in the, in the foliage outside as well,  Yucca: Oh, lovely. Mark: So it just kinds of create some thematic stuff around it.  Yucca: Yeah, we, we put ribbons, we've got a specific tree that we like to put things and, you know, we put little like, you know, Christmas bulbs and things like that in the winter. And then we put some of the ribbons out. And then we go out and untangled them because they get very tangled.  Mark: Of course.  You do Cloudy's do you know.  Yucca: What are Cloudy's Mark: Cloud, is there an Irish tradition? I think, I think, or it may be a Scott's tradition. I'm but I seem to remember it's an Irish tradition and they are cloth that you hang in a tree and particularly with wishes for health,  Yucca: Mm. Mark: and they, you know, various colored clogs and that kind of thing. So it, it sort of creates a prayer tree.  Yucca: Okay. So like a prayer flag tree kind of. Okay. Yeah. We haven't done that, but that's a lovely idea  Mark: Yeah, I like it. I like it too. And then of course there is the classic, which is the maypole dance. We will put a link to a blog post that. I have@atheopagan.org called how does that maypole thing work? And it's, it's step-by-step instructions for how to do a maypole circle. Maples are just so much fun there they're really joyous and dancing around one with a partner with, you know, all these couples with ribbons going in the opposite directions and weaving the ribbons up on the pole.  Yucca: Bumping into each other. Occasionally. Mark: into each other a lot, Especially as you get closer to the pole, cause your ribbons are winding up and they're getting shorter and shorter. And you know, there's always music playing and it's just a very joyful, happy kind of time. And I have many memories of going to, built-in or may Mayday gatherings, you know, people where they're colorful clothing and it. It's just a really, really sweet spring celebration and a very old tradition of course may have existed in, not just in England, but also in other parts of Europe, continental, Europe, Yucca: in the Northern areas, which sometimes they're associated more with solstice,  Mark: Yes. Yes. In Sweden. I know they do a maypole things that summer solstice. And that may just be Because it's, you know, Yucca: Because that is Sprig Mark: that is spring that's when it finally just gets warm enough to get that hooray. We're going outside feeling.  Yucca: and hopefully it'll be on a weekend.  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Well, and if it's not, then you just push to the next weekend. I mean,  Yucca: well, that's what we do. We use it like you were saying at the beginning that, you know, maybe it's not going to be on May 1st week kind of just do it around this time of year when it works for everybody.  Mark: Right, right. Because it would be really disappointing if half the people you wanted to come, couldn't make it. Just because you insisted on doing it on a Wednesday. The other thing to bear in mind when it comes to, you know, being diligent about doing things exactly on the day, That's great, but bear in mind that the actual midpoint between the Equinox and the solstice is actually around May 7th. So. I consider May 1st through May 7th to be the week of may day, the week of Mayday or the week of bell pain. In the same way that Hallows is from Halloween to about November 6th or seventh, depending on the year. So, you know, give yourself a break. Don't. You know, force yourself to do something that creates a lot more insertion and trouble. It's okay to wait till the weekend to do something that, that you want to have a gathering with.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I'm excited because The, the atheopagan community created a new program earlier this year called affinity groups. And those are groups that are, that share geographical affinity or that have some sort of identity or interest connection. So there's an LGBTQ group and there's a crafters group and there's a neuro-diverse. Diverse group and an activist group, but there's also groups that are in different geographical areas. And we have one for Northern California that is now called live Oak circle. And we are meeting in person at one of our houses to do a Mayday gathering on, on May 1st. And I'm really excited about it. I think it's going to be a really Nice. time.  Yucca: That's great.  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: And all, you'll be seeing some of those folks again and another, the next weekend, in fact,  Mark: Yes, one of them, one of them will also be at the century retreat.  Yucca: Yeah. So just a plug for that. I think that the day this comes out is the last day for registration, right?  Mark: That's right.  Yucca: the 25th of April. Yeah, because we need to know who's going to be there so we know how much food to have. Right. Mark: Right. Exactly. So, when you hear this podcast, if you hear it on Monday, the first, if you are still thinking about coming, please at least contact us through the, the contact email on the century re. Page to let us know that you want to come. You can, we'll work out getting your registration completed over the next couple of days, but we need to know that you're coming. And how many are in your party?  Yucca: Yeah. We just need the count of what's going to be there or not. Yeah. Mark: because it's only, it's three weeks away.  Yucca: Yup. Mark: We're in three weeks. We're going to be there.  Yucca: Yup. Mark: And the whole, the whole thing just seems preposterous to me. I mean, I haven't left the state of California in a long time now And  Yucca: either actually the last place I went was Colorado Springs was Colorado Springs or w w for the baby moon before my oldest was born six years ago. We went there cause it was the closest borders  Mark: really?  Yucca: bookish people. Yeah. We were like, Hey, let's go somewhere and spend the night somewhere. Cause we're never going to do this again for like 18 years. And what do we want to do? I want to go to a bookstore. Yeah. I want to go to a bookstore too. So we have lots of little bookstores as well, but we wanted one that was a little bit more like. Like wandering through a big library. So that anyways, yeah. That's the last time I've been out of state. It's been a while. Mark: Yeah. well, you know, there's been COVID and you've had kids and there's, there's all that stuff. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So, yeah, it's it's going to happen so soon now I'm really, I got to go to my storage unit and get out of suitcase and all this stuff. So. What else do we have to say about Mayday and oh I we're, we're developing a re a relatively large list of things to put in the in the episode notes, but I do want to put in also, I have a blog post about may celebrations that aren't about sex.  Yucca: Okay. Nice.  Mark: So for people who, you know, are, are a sexual or a romantic, Or  Yucca: Or do you want it to be a family thing and it's not appropriate for the particular people in the family right  Mark: Right. Or they just aren't into it, you know, whatever that is. There's some ideas there for things that you can do to celebrate this time of year. So I want to  Yucca: That's a great, yeah, because it really doesn't. I mean, I like the sex part, but it doesn't have to be about that.  Mark: That's Right.  Yucca: There's plenty of, of reawakening and all of that stuff that doesn't have to doesn't have to be it.  Mark: Absolutely. And as always, we're working to be as inclusive as we possibly can. This non theist pagan science-based paganism path is something that really is open to everyone and not just in a tolerance sense, but in a true welcoming sense. We want you to have a practice. Really works for you, you know, that feels moving and meaningful and gives you a sense of place in the world and a sense of purpose in living. So that's, that's the thing. So what else do we have  Yucca: You know, I think I'm just feeling happy about it being spring.  Mark: Me too.  Yucca: that's what I have to say. Spring awakening being outside color the bugs coming back, got all kinds of interesting things out. That's that's what's going on for us. So. Mark: Yep. That's what's happening here too. And we, we really love it. So, I got to get out on a trail. I haven't actually gone hiking for quite a while and I really want to do that. So I've got to, got to get myself going soon.  Yucca: Good time for that. Mark: It is so happy spring everyone or summer, if that's the way you count it, which we didn't really talk about. But many people consider the cross quarter holidays to be the beginnings of the seasons instead of the solstices and equinoxes. Which is why summer solstice is called midnight. Often and the winter solstice is called mid-winter. But it just depends on how you count it. Calendars are arbitrary.  Yucca: they are. Yeah. I mean, for where I am, the seasons are not equal. Winter and summer are really long and we have like a few weeks of spring and a few weeks of fall. And then. You know, we basically have winter and summer. I mean, there's nuances, but really just jumps right in. Yes, June is not spring for us. For some people, June a spring, but June is like not Judas 90 degrees. So yeah. Well, anyways, as we were saying, just happy spring or happy summer, everyone. And for those of you, cause we do see that there are quite a few of you listening in the Southern hemisphere. So the other way around, happy bottom for you. Mark: Yes, and I'm happy Hallows or solemn, meaningful Hallows, and be sure to look in the in the podcast archives for our has episodes, because you can certainly use all of that stuff for your celebration here in may as well.  Yucca: Great. And is there a Southern hemisphere affinity group? Mark: There is yes, it's small right now, but there is a Southern hemisphere affinity group.  Yucca: Yeah. So definitely check that out if Mark: Yep. if you're interested in joining an affinity group, you can. go to the atheopagan society website, which is the AP society.org, the AP society.org forward slash community. And that will take you to the page that lists all of the affinity groups.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Okay. Well, thank you so much, Yucca. It's been a pleasure as always.  Yucca: Thank you, mark.

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E11 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm your host Yucca. And this week we're talking about crystals, herbs. Other magical treasures. Mark: Right. Yeah. These are things that are very important in the practices of many pagans. We have a different take on what that means from maybe the mainstream pagan view. So it will be talking about. But also about what we can do to create aesthetic objects and materials that help us to get into the right mind space, to do effective ritual work and and how we can best equip ourselves with all those kinds of things.  Yucca: Right. And also not just in the ritual space, but in our everyday mundane life and environments that we create. Mark: Sure because they work as talismans. And we did do a, an episode on talismans a long, long time ago. The, they, they, you can carry an object with you or wear a piece of jewelry or anoint yourself with a particular scent, any of those things. And if it has a strong association for you, it will remind you of that characteristic or quality. And then you have that with you in your ordinary life. And that can be really great, really empowering and and supportive of success.  Yucca: Right. Mark: So for a minute, let's, let's just talk in the big picture about all of This What do we think about magic crystals? Yucca: This will probably not be a surprise to our long-term listeners, but my take and I'm guessing this is the as well Mark, is that they aren't inherently magical. They don't have super special powers. They're not supernatural. They're natural, just like everything else. Some of them are really. Some of them are beautiful. Their stories are amazing in terms of how they were made and the interaction between the biosphere and the geosphere and all of that is just incredible. But there's a lot of big claims about crystals that I don't buy. Mark: Yeah. me neither. There, although we might aesthetically appreciate a quartz crystal more than we aesthetically appreciate A lump of granite, there's no special quality that makes the crystal any more special than the lump of granite. The lump of granite has an amazing story behind it, too. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: But that being said, and we're going to talk about the provenance of these things in a while, presuming that you have something that was, was brought to you in an ethical manner, there's nothing wrong with having beautiful stones on your, on your focus, your altar, or, you know, carrying it with you.  Yucca: of jewelry  Mark: jewelry One thing that I will tell you though, not to do, which is something that I saw a photo of on the internet that really terrified me. Someone had taken a whole, whole bunch of sacred stones and crystals and had hot glued them to the center of their steering wheel,  Yucca: oh, yes, don't do that.  Mark: where their airbag is,  Yucca: Yes. I've seen. People do that with their dashboards too, but the airbag is even a Mark: Yeah. I mean, that turns the thing into a Claymore mine. It's just, it's terrifying to think about the damage that that airbag would do if it deployed. So don't do that.  Yucca: Yeah to a lesser degree. That's why I, when I did have long hair, I haven't in years, but I never liked using like the chopsticks or the clippies or anything like that because I always thought, oh, what if I fall backwards? But an airbag that's a lot more intense. Mark: Yes. I have been on the receiving end of a face full of airbag. And I was really glad it was there, but it happens very, very fast and it hits you hard. So please don't put anything hard between you and it  Yucca: yeah. Yeah. So that's,  Mark: kind of a special case,  Yucca: let's say you have in common.  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: that the stones that you have are on the gyms that you have are not the mind in a way that is with slave labor and all of that. And that they're not, it did, it came to you in an ethical way that great, right. Mark: Which is a steeper standard than you might expect. Mineral specimens and particularly crystal specimens are mined in extremely environmentally destructive and unsustainable ways often by people living in slave like, or in, in truly enslaved conditions, including children. In many places in the world. Many places in south America, for example, Brazil places in Asia as well and there and South Africa. There are there beautiful stones and it's lovely to have them, but to be honest, my take is if I didn't find it myself, I'm not going to buy it. I, at this point I will buy fossils. If they have good provenance, but when it comes to just mineral specimens, I just don't do it anymore. I have a few that I acquired over the years and that's enough.  Yucca: Yeah. So this is something that, that if you really enjoy crystals, that we would encourage you to look into and do some research on. Because there certainly are ways to, to acquire them that aren't based on those things that we just talked about, but it's really, but it's, if you're just getting a random one, it's really hard to know what that history is. And there's a good chance that, that it really does come, is supporting the system that is so exploitative on just every level. Mark: And you just don't want to be part of increasing the suffering in the world. Right? I mean, that's, that's a pretty simple standard. It's like,  Yucca: There's enough of that  Mark: Yeah. don't, don't make things worse. It's it's it's not too much to ask. That said getting a good Providence. Mineral specimen from an ethical source also lets you know that the mineral itself hasn't been monkeyed with because one thing that happens in mineral specimens a lot is that they get cooked. They're heated to high temperatures to change their color. And so you may not even be sure exactly what you're getting. This happens with quartz a lot. There are lots of different colors of quartz because of trace elements that are included in the quartz as the crystals form. But if you bake  Yucca: that's what a Ruby is, right? It's just a little bit of chromium in it isn't it? Mark: No Ruby is corundum which is the second hardest naturally occurring mineral. After diamond corundum is a, a mineral of its own. It's the same mineral as Sapphire rubies and sapphires. And then there's also, what's called common corundum, which is used in making specialty sand papers and things like that. This is, this is one where I learned this at my daddy, the geophysicists ne so, yeah, corundum is number nine on the most hardness scale. And then diamond is 10. But there are pink quartz is in and even red quartz is that I, pink quartz is their natural. I've never seen a natural red quartz. It may exist, but I've never seen one.  Yucca: Mm. Okay. Yeah, just looking up just a real quick, it looks like that chromium is in a.  Mark: Is it.  Yucca: yes.  Mark: I, Yeah, I'm I'm sure because corundum corundum is a particular molecular structure, but then the color comes from whatever associated trace minerals. I would imagine that it's probably cobalt or copper. That's the trace for sapphires.  Yucca: yeah, yeah. We'd have to look into that. Yeah, just little bits of just a few little bits of different elements. Completely changes the whole look of it.  Mark: That's the wonder of chemistry, right? You take oxygen, which is a colorless, tasteless, transparent gas and hydrogen, which is a colorless odorless, tasteless gas. You bond them together and you get water, which is none of those things.  Yucca: Yeah. Okay, I'm going to go down a rabbit hole. I've got to stop looking at  Mark: Yeah. yeah. I invite You to do it cause it's really cool, but maybe not during the recording. Yucca: yeah. Mark: So  Yucca: were talking about cooking, right? That sometimes they will be  Mark: they they will be heated and modified in the lab. And it's also very common for example, to take mineral specimens and to grind a point onto them so that they look like a crew of quartz. The natural cleavage pattern of a court's crystal actually does lead to those beautiful faceted points that we're familiar with, but people will take like a piece of Topaz or a piece of Aqua Marine and they will grind a point onto it so that it looks more like what people think of as a crystal.  Yucca: Right. Mark: So. you want something that reflects the, the amazing nature of the natural world as it assembles these cool crystal instructures. You want something that hasn't been too? What's the word I'm looking for? Compromised by those artificial processes to try to make it look a particular way so that you'll buy it.  Yucca: Yeah. Well, I mean, it depends on what your, what your goal is though, right? If you're buying it, just because you like the way it looks, but it might not really matter to you what the history of that is. But if it's something that's, it looks, if it's important to you, that it be a specific. Mineral that it'd be the specific history. Then you might not be getting that unless, you know, unless you trust who you're buying it from and the process that it was produced under. Mark: Right. And speaking of rabbit holes, if you really get into crystallography and you start looking at All. the different geometric forms that different chemicals will take when they form crystals, that is. That is this unbelievable, cool world. I mean, when you think about it, water creates crystals in six sided, highly intricate crystal forms that we call snowflakes. Right. He light, which is salt forms in cubes. Sometimes the cubes are kind of skewed like a parallelogram, but they're still basically just, you know, six sided figures. So one of the things that can be really very wonderful about exploring the world of rocks and minerals is actually. You know, digging into the geology itself, you know, the stories of how these rocks came to us, you know, the ones that formed in in pockets of, of air that were filled with hot liquid. Supercharged with minerals and then crystallized, and then the water drained away leaving these geocodes inside filled with crystals cracks that had hot fluid injected into them and then grew crystals out so that they created veins. Which is the way that many metals and metal ores are laid down. Geology is very fascinating. Set of topics. And if, if you really get into the rock world, you can have a really good time there.  Yucca: Yeah. And there's a new field, which is geo biology, which looks at the overlap between mineralogy and biology and how those two things we like to separate them into these two different, totally different categories, but they're not, there's this wonderful overlap and, and On earth when we compare it to what we know about the other terrestrial planets, we have far more in terms of order of magnitude more mineral species than our sister planets too, even though we're made from the same starting material, because we've got life, that's mucking around with the chemistry here. And so there's just so there's so much that happens in both directions. So that's a, that's a whole new field. It's only started in the last, you know, 10, 20 max years. Mark: Yeah. Well, when you think about it limestone, for example, or chalk, that is entirely deposition of the skeletons of living creatures compressed down into sedimentary layers. It's nothing but that that's all that it is. So you're talking about rock that has been constructed by the biosphere.  Yucca: Yeah. And all of those types of minerals that can only form in high oxygen environments or things that can only form and specifically acidic environments, all sorts of things. Mark: Yeah, so I'm kind of a tangent, but geology. Cool.  Yucca: Yes.  Mark: it out.  Yucca: Yes. Very much. So. Mark: So that's crystals and what we have to say about it. And I guess I'd like to click out a couple of layers now, before we move on to other things like herbs and tools and bones and feathers and all the wonderful things that we like to use in our ritual practices, because they create a particular. Ambiance a particular aesthetic feeling. And that's to talk about consumerism,  Yucca: Right. Mark: which is an issue in the broader pagan community.  Yucca: Well, not just the bacon community, but that's one of the, the, the struggle, the challenges of our modern society today.  Mark: Right. The commodification of everything, including spirituality, where it's like in order to be really a, a good pagan, you have to dress a particular way or one of a small set of particular ways. And you have to have particular kinds of ritual tools and. Not all of that is rooted in the, I must have ethos of capitalism, Yucca: Great. Mark: you know, and not, not only I must have, but if I can afford it, I deserve to have,  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I mean, we never even asked ourselves the question, you know, should, should this product even exist?  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Not talking specifically about like your here's. Here's a good example in my mind, Botox, should this product even exist? It is used as a treatment. For a non-problem that culture tells mostly women that they have, which is they are aging, which is natural and normal. And then it is sold at considerable expense. It's derived from a poison and then sold at considerable expense. it wears off. So you have to use it again and all this kind of stuff, but nobody ever really asked the question, should this product exist? It was just assumed that if people would pay money for it, then the product should exist. And. I go back to a very wise thing that morning glory Zelle once said to me, she was a friend of mine, a lover of mine and just a dear, dear, dear person in my life. And I'm so sorry she's gone. But she once said to me, if you can't do it with a stick, you picked up on the way to the circle. You can't do it at all. And to me that just speaks volumes about how you don't need expensive trappings. You don't need 4,000 tarot decks. You don't need exotic feathers from south America. And You know, crystals from all over the world and all the many, many, many things that we tend to accumulate around ourselves as pagans, because we want to be able to create that, that feeling and then to carry it out with us into our ordinary lives. So I just encourage you think about it. Think about. You know, it's one thing. If you're buying something from an artist whose, you know, whose individual living is being made better by they're assembling something that looks very beautiful and they're doing it from materials that are not unethically sourced, that's one thing fine, you know, support that person. That's Great. But it's another, if you're just kind of. You know, ordering stuff from Amazon because you feel like you're supposed to have it.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: You're you're not supposed to have it. You don't have to have it. I have four ones, none of them was made by a person. One of them came from a Redwood tree. One of them came from an Oak tree, you know, and these are fallen branches, Right. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: From dead. One of them is an extruded piece of kelp that's dried into a rod shape. And the final one here, I'm going to peer over and look at it. Now is a bone is a deer bone. And all of those have very powerful associations for me. And I use them in different ways when I do rituals, but I didn't have to buy any of them. And no nothing was harmed.  Yucca: Right. Mark: You know, no carbon was made transporting stuff from one part of the world to another part of the world in order to bring me this thing. And more and more as I get older, I think that doing no harm is the very, the very least we can do. I mean, doing, you know, making things better, obviously. Before us on the table. That's that's the work, but at the very least we can reduce the harm that we do.  Yucca: Yeah, I think that's, that's very well said. And, and to, to build on that, I want to say that none of this is to try to make somebody feel guilty about what they have or about, you know, wanting to have the beautiful thing or something like that. But to encourage you that, to think about, you know, whether you need it. And, and if you don't being okay with that, right. It's okay to not have the incredible velvet robes and the, this and the, that, and the like, like you were saying, Mark. Yeah. You've got a branch from a tree that meant something to you or a bone from an animal that meant something to you. And that, that works. Right. And that can be, that can be just as if not far more meaningful than the thing that was purchased and the thing that was just part of the commodity chain. Mark: Right. Because when something is delivered to you as a part of the commodity chain, you have no story associated with it. Right? The story is I gave them money. They gave me.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: when you make something for yourself or you find something or you buy something from a person, or it was a gift. you buy something from an individual person whose work you appreciate and you know something about them. Then it brings the story. And the association of a story with an object is core to what we think of as charging a magical idea. Right.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Cause that's what it is. It tells you a story when you see it or when you hold it in your hand, it says, I come from, I come from this Seychelles islands and I am a piece of volcanic rock that has sharp edges on it. And Lay on a beach for many years, you know, having those sharp edges rounded down so that now all these little pores make this wonderful sort of sponge like a piece of stone. I just made that up. I don't have a piece of rock from the Seychelles, but anyway, Yucca: but it's unbelievable. Right? It sounded like you were describing, you were looking at a particular rock and describing it. Mark: Sure. And if I did have a rock from the Seychelles and I had been to the Seychelles, then it. would tell me stories about all of my experiences in that place and why it was magic to be there. And, you know, remind me of of people that I knew that were there and,  Yucca: Or the relationship with the person who went there and brought it back to you and keep it to you over the coffee that you had or whatever.  Mark: Right. Right. so long story short, we just really encourage our listeners as we do ourselves to interrogate our capitalist assumptions because they're there they're soaked into us. We can't have. You know, we were, we were raised in this particular over culture, which we've talked about before and asking questions and challenging assumptions is the way that we start to become more free. And it's not just about undermining a system, which is destroying the earth and causing a tremendous amount of suffering. It's also about becoming more liberated ourselves becoming more free and that we want that for you and for ourselves. It's something we want for the world is for people to be more liberated and feel like they have more choices about what they do  Yucca: Right. And to be, have that. Richer more colorful life. That isn't because of what you have, but because of what you do and experience,  Mark: and the relationships, you know,  Yucca: right. Mark: Yes. Yeah. Including with the world itself, with the biosphere and the, all the various creatures that, that are a part of it. So that, that it's w it wasn't really a tangent, but it was sort of a long sojourn. Yucca: Yeah. Well, that's the framework that we're going into talking about the rest of these items with,  Mark: Yes. That's true. Yeah. So let's talk about herbs, which are somewhat different because many herbs do actually have medicinal qualities. Also many herbs are claimed to have medicinal qualities that don't really.  Yucca: Well, so many herbs are sprayed with a lot of stuff that you probably don't want to actually be eating and a may have been grown in a monoculture, you know, there's, there's a lot of levels to it. So just like, just like we were talking about with the crystals, you want to be really mindful and aware of the story of what it is that your. Mark: Right. Yucca: using Mark: The good news about herbs is that you can grow your. own. And then you know, what condition they were grown in. And you have a personal relationship with the plant because you fostered it, you helped for it to grow. I don't find that I use a lot of different herbs in my work. I've got, you know, the reliable ones, the Rosemary and the time and the Sage and the sweet grass, which doesn't actually grow locally where I am, but it smells so beautiful when it burns. And I mostly use them in the manner of an incense because I but the other thing that you can do rather than burning them is just a heat. And then we'll still make this beautiful scent as the, the essential oils in the earth evaporate and go into the, into the air column.  Yucca: Right. And some of them, you can, you can simmer and water and do like the like put it on the stove top and you'll get that beautiful smell. Some of them that does not work out for. So you got to kind of experiment with that. Mark: Don't do that with pepper. I have bad experience in system cooking things with a lot of chili flakes or a lot of black pepper.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: you, you basically create tear gas. It's not very good.  Yucca: So once again, common sense, right?  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: A little bit of common sense in there, but.  Mark: but. there is something very wonderful about having bundles of dried herbs hanging around your kitchen. There's something about it. That's evocative of that. Archetypal hovel of the wise woman in the woods you know, who has a plant for everything, Right. Who, who knows the lore of the plants and. Not thoroughly versed lore of the plants kind of person, but I know people who are in our community and I think that's a wonderful path to pursue. Now I stop at the point where we start talking about the energies of plants that are magically going to influence something or other that are going to bring luck or money or relationships or those kinds of things, because I don't believe that stuff, but. Certainly, you know, elderberry, cough syrup works pretty well when you've got a cough and Rosemary or mint or a combination of the two, if you steam them and breathe the steam, when you're all congested, your nose will clear up. These are compounds that really work  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: and you know, they smell beautiful. The plants have. Fascinating histories of how they've been used or transported or transplanted around the world. So. That's that's kinda my take on, on the herbal thing. I can't speak to whether a particular plant has a medicinal power or not, because I'm not an expert in that way. But we're, we're talking about things now from the standpoint of their, their ritual qualities or their so-called magical qualities rather than their, their literal qualities. And just, just the aesthetic presence of those bundles of herbs, you know, it, it really can make a big difference. I mean, in the Southwest, you see people with chili peppers  Yucca: Okay. Yeah,  Mark: around the kitchen,  Yucca: there's some outside our door. Yup. We're almost out though, because you're actually supposed to be eating. Most of those people hang it for decoration, but there's drive so that you can break it off and you can put it in with your food. But yeah,  Mark: So, are you going to make it to the next harvest?  Yucca: No, we will not. Nope, we're out almost. But maybe we're in the new house now, so, and this'll be our full year, so we'll be growing a lot more of around stuff this year. But but we do, you know, with, we have a lot of herbs in the house and it's a lot of them are more just based on smell and associates. Right. I know that there's, that there are medicinal properties of certain things, but a lot of them, I think, you know, there's probably something in Campbellsville and lavender, which chemically interacts with our bodies in a certain way. But I just associate that with calm down. Relax just, oh, this is wonderful. Have the warm cup of tea or the smell or the, and because we use them that way intentionally, then it immediately brings us back to that since I. Mark: Yeah. And, and. I, I agree with you about cam and particularly because I have a very strong association of camomile as being very calming as well. And I don't know how much of that is just sort of the reputation and how much of it is an actual chemical interaction with my body. And how much of it is it just the flavor of camomile is so subtle. It's like, it's, it's not like. Beer or wine or, you know, something that really just makes a huge explosion in your mouth, right? It's this very, very subtle flavors. So you kind of have to slow down and pay attention, or it'll just seem like hot water  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: in order to taste it. It forces you to slow down, which is part of what's lovely about the Arab. So, yes, I'm sorry. I saw you stutter there? for a second as well. So I think we lost connection for a second. So by all means, you know, explore the world of plants. It's, it's a fascinating world. And  Yucca: Especially if you can grow some, even if it's just. And sometimes this is wonderful, but it, if there's just as a south facing or north, if you're in the Southern hemisphere, a sun facing window and just a few little pots. Mark: Yeah, just, just a couple little pots And you can grow, you know, you can grow your, your time. You know, there's nothing like fresh time. It really, it, it doesn't dry. Well, honestly, I mean, however, freshly you get your dry time, fresh time is just so much more powerful. And it there's  Yucca: Bazell  Mark: in Bazell  Yucca: we can. Yeah. There's just something about, about fresh Bazell and it's so expensive if you buy it, it's  Mark: if you buy it by the bundle. Oh,  Yucca: Well, if you want, if you buy fresh Bazell I mean, I know you can get like the, the dried stuff, but if you go to the grocery store and you buy like a few little sprigs, I mean, you're paying at least where I am like five bucks for something that's like the length of your hand and that's it. Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: So, Mark: yeah. We definitely have our basal plant in the kitchen and. One of the things that's really lovely about that is that the minute that you start picking leaves off of a plant and throwing them into a cooking pot, you're doing Witchery you absolutely are. There's just, there's something about it. You know, about drawing from the wild and, and putting. Drawing from, from the biosphere, from life and mixing something into your, your pot of food. There's just something that's very magical about it. And you can do it with intention and then you're adding that layer into your cooking. So.  Yucca: And then as you take the bite, let's say you're doing basal right? When you take that bite, you can, if you can remember that intention each time you take that bite, right? So you did it as you were cooking and then as it was going into your body, Mark: Right. And over time that will build an association between that taste and a particular feeling, a feeling of being well-nourished and taken care of at home. For example and those are powerful things because if you really need that, if you're far from home in a sterile hotel room going to a conference and you suddenly feel like you're. Ungrounded and wondering why the hell you went to this thing and how you're going to manage to do your presentation tomorrow. If you brought a little bottle of Bazell leaves with you and you can take a nice sniff of that, maybe that brings you back home, maybe that maybe that reestablishes, that sense of solidity inside yourself.  Yucca: Right. Or if you needed to be at the hospital for some reason, right? That's the time that you really want to be just present and grounded and in your, because you're probably why ever you're at the hospital, unless maybe it's for a birth. Right. But in most other cases it's a tricky time. Like you're usually not very happy to be there. Mark: right,  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Yeah. So. I mean, we're, we're talking about these things in the context of how you can use them in your so-called spicy psychology. You know, the what said no, we'll called a little red adding a little razzle-dazzle to the. The things that you do in life so that you can be more effective, you can be happy Or you can be more focused. You can be more calm push away, anxiety rise up from depression, all of those things. And those are real effects. You know, we've been talking a lot this episode about how crystals don't really have magical properties and so forth, but the effects that we're talking about when we talk about ritual work are real effects. They, they affect your consciousness and that means that they affect your life. So we were. Finish by talking about some ways that you can go about charging magical stuff. So let's say you got yourself a beautiful rock specimen. Doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be a crystal. It could be I don't know, one of those lumps of native copper, beautiful things, there, all these strange sort of configurations of, of copper that you find them in the desert sometimes. Whatever it is, what  Yucca: your business.  Mark: oh,  Yucca: seen those. Those are yet.  Mark: really cool. Yeah. I have a couple of them.  Yucca: Yeah. So first of all, Again, our take is that you're not actually taking some sort of magical power and storing it inside of that object. But what you're working on is your relationship with that object, your S you are immediate association that association, that relationship that's underneath that thinking part. The thing that you're going to experience instantly, right. Mark: Right. Which when you think about it is kind of like charging something it's like, it's like storing it's like storing a particular quality, like a battery so that when you take that object out or you hold it or you put it in your pocket or whatever it is, you can feel some of that quality leaking out metaphorically speaking, and instilling you with that. Right. I won't say who this is, but I have a friend who has a stone sex toy that she has lots and lots of very pleasurable associations with. Yucca: Sure.  Mark: Yeah. Because that's what it's for. And so she brings that with her to conferences. Not because she's going to use it, but because it just kind of brings happiness.  Yucca: Hmm. Mark: just, you know, I'm putting happiness in my suitcase, so I'm going to tote it along and it's going to keep me happy. So I think that's very cool Yucca: So that would've been something. It was just kind of built naturally, right. That  Mark: over time. Yeah.  Yucca: But, you can also do that very intentionally in ritual. You can, you can plan a ritual, you can sit down or go into your sacred space or whatever. However, you're going to structure that and. And try to bring whatever that is with you, right? If this is going to be something that say you're working on the feeling of comfort and relaxation, right? So do a bunch of things. That's going to get you into that state.  Mark: Right.  Yucca: Do you know, are there songs that get you there really quickly or certain smells or, you know, did she want to put on your, your fluffy slippers in your bathrobe or whatever it is, right. And have that object with you. Right. And start to, you know, if you're a word, see person, then, you know, maybe talk to it or, you know, what are the things, can you think of Mark? Mark: Well, in terms of talking to it to start with, I mean, you can literally say to it, I am now putting comfort into you. I am pouring that cuddly feeling of being on a winter's morning, under enough blankets, where everything feels warm right down to the tip of your toes. And that is going into this stone. It's going into it and it stays. And that's, what's going to be there every time I pick up this stone, I'm going to feel cozy and safe and taken care of. Say you have an issue with consistency that you, and you know, this is a thing for folks like me who have ADHD. It can be very, very difficult to be consistent. And it's taken me a long time to develop The kinds of systems that I need for constantly reminding myself of things so that I can do what I've said. I'm going to do. One way you can do that is if you have a daily practice, incorporate the charging of this object into your daily practice so that you are being consistent, inputting this consistency into your object. Right. So if it's, Yucca: The stubble helpful then. Right? Cause you've practiced the consistency. And then you have the thing that associate you associate with consistency. Mark: And what you've done is you've proved to yourself that you can be consistent and it doesn't have to be a hundred percent, you know, that's, that's, that's not how things work. You know, it's  Yucca: Yeah, Mark: the, I, the idea of perfection is like the idea of virginity. They don't exist. they're made up they're made up ideas. Yucca: they're made up to shame people into, into behaving or obeying. Mark: into obedience. Exactly. That that's not a real thing. A real thing is. Being more consistent, Right. Being more consistent than you were otherwise. If you miss a day of your daily practice, go back to it the next day. That's fine. But you do that for two weeks and now you have an object which has a, a story before. I did this ritual for two weeks, you know, where I was putting consistency of, of action into this object, into you know, whatever it is, a feather wand or a, a stone or a bundle of herbs that you might want to burn. So that at a time when you really need to be consistent and. demonstrated that you can be consistent in the course of doing that. So think creatively about how these rituals can go, you know, the best way to develop an association between an object and an experience is to have that object with you while you're doing the experience.  Yucca: Right  Mark: So, whatever it is you're looking for, if you're looking to goose up your love life, well, you know, have that on your bedside table. If you're looking to increase your capacity for focus maybe on your work desk or someplace where you really have to pay close attention. Yucca: Right for gratitude on the table or, you know  Mark: Great one. yeah. Great one. Yeah. So I, I guess sort of to summarize what I would say is, we're not saying that there aren't magical things. But what we mean by a magical thing is different than what a lot of people in the broader pagan community, me, we don't, we don't mean that there is some inferior quality radiating out from a particular kind of crystal that causes your liver to work better or something like that. What we mean is you can come to associate an object and pick the object that you think is a fitting. One Right. when it comes to being focused and precise, a really sharp edged. Perfect. Court's crystal might be the Right. object for you to use for that because it has its own kind of precision and perfection.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So we can come to ritually imbue. These objects with a kind of a power to speak to us, a narrative to speak to us and in doing so we can enhance our lives. We can enhance our ritual practices and we can be happier, more effective people, which of course is, as we say so often, That's the goal happier, more effective, make a better world. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So, do we have anything else? Yucca.  Yucca: No, I think that this is a good place to wrap up.  Mark: Okay. Good. All right.  Yucca: I think that we covered quite a bit here and really, you know, covered the points that we wanted to about starting with talking a little bit about the consumerism part of it. You know, what's really the function of these and what is it mean for it to actually be magical in those relationships? And so we've, we've gone through quite a bit, actually with a few tangents here and there, little branches growing  Mark: Rocks. Check them out.  Yucca: Yes, Go down, go down that, that a Wikipedia rabbit hole. So,  well,  Mark: great. Yeah. thank you, so much, Yucca. It's been a pleasure as always. And boy, we are sure. Getting close to century retreat it's  Yucca: yes. Mark: six weeks away, seven weeks away, something like That  Yucca: That is yep. It's just around the corner. It really is. I mean, I don't know how it is for you, but the last couple of days has been pretending to be spring here. It, we will get a few more freezes, but it's just making it seem like, oh, well this retreats happening in the spring, right. It's spring. So is it now, can we go yet? Can we go? Mark: We just had all the wisteria growing on our back fence bloom and it's so it's beautiful and it smells so good.  Yucca: I love that  Mark: spring is really happening here. The trees are leafing out and it's just really, really going on. Yeah. So happy spring to all of our listeners, except the ones south of the equator.  Yucca: yes then happy. Mark: in which case, happy fall. Happy autumn.  Yucca: Oh, one more thing. My daughter came up with a holiday and it's Snake Celebration day, and so we need to draw pictures of snakes or make little models of them. And when we see the first snake out, that gets to be snake celebration day,  Mark: Okay.  Yucca: but we have to, we have to prepare ahead of time, have everything ready to put up so that, you know, because we don't know which day it's going to  Mark: so you draw the pictures and make the models in advance.  Yucca: And then we can put them up the day. That is snakes celebration day.  Mark: That sounds like a great holiday.  Yucca: Yes. So, all right. I'll let you know when it happens  Mark: All right. Cool. Please do well. A pleasure as always  Yucca: thanks Mark.  Mark: have a great week, everybody.

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E7 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-Based Paganism. I'm your host Yucca  Mark: and I'm Mark, Yucca: And today we have a really special episode. We have, what was it that you called it? A.  Mark: Literary interlude.  Yucca: a, a bit of storytelling, dreaming and poetry for the spring, which a lot of us are in that place. And here in the Northern hemisphere where we're going into spring, where, Ooh, we want to get going. We want to, we want to just get out there, but it's still, still a bit nippy, not quite there yet. And so it's still that time of dreaming and storytelling. Getting ready for all of it.  Mark: Right. Yeah, it's that in between time and, and we, we were a little bit at a loss to know what to talk about today. So. We've, we've fallen back on on poetry and stories and that kind of thing. These are. The poems come from my book a red kiss, which is my second book after the atheopaganism book and is a collection of poems of mine going all the way back to 1993--selected poems, not all of them just the good stuff. So I'm really happy to share. I write on a variety of different kinds of themes. So these are these sort of go all over the place. So settle in and we'll, we'll start out with an atheist prayer :  AN ATHEIST'S PRAYER Praise to the wide spinning world Unfolding each of all the destined tales compressed In the moment of your catastrophic birth Wide to the fluid expanse, blowing outward Kindling in stars and galaxies, in bright pools Of Christmas-colored gas; cohering in marbles hot And cold, ringed, round, gray and red and gold and dun   And blue   Pure blue, the eye of a child, spinning in a veil of air, Warm island, home to us, kind beyond measure:  the stones And trees, the round river flowing sky to deepest chasm, salt And sweet.   Praise to Time, enormous and precious, And we with so little, seeing our world go as it will Ruing, cheering, the treasured fading, precious arriving, Fear and wonder, Fear and wonder always.   Praise O black expanse of mostly nothing Though you do not hear, you have no ear nor mind to hear Praise O inevitable, O mysterious, praise Praise and thanks be a wave Expanding from this tiny temporary mouth this tiny dot Of world a bubble   Going out forever meeting everything as it goes All the great and infinitesimal Gracious and terrible All the works of blessed Being.   May it be so.   May it be so.   May our hearts sing to say it is so.   Yucca: Mark. That was beautiful. Mark: Thank you. That's the one that I ended the atheopaganism book with actually there's a little one page chapter called what it looks like, and that's that's what's on that page. Yucca: The, the imagery, I just, just closing my eyes and listening, as you said that, and could just, just feel my. Changing perspective and flying through coming down from the galactic of you into the eye of the child. Just, just amazing.  Mark: Thank you. so much. This is one called "Blessed". And it's got a dedication: for my people. You know who you are.  Yucca: Hm. BLESSED I am among the blessed.   I am of the kind who leaves the glaring tube, remembering And goes to watch the moon rise silver through the trees Breathing purple and chill, stinging pine.  I am Among the blessed:  I know the acacia, the first daffodil, The irises unsheathing cream and violet labia in the green wet of May. I tune for the new music on the radio:  I turn it up.   I am among the blessed:  I drink wine by firelight, clothes rank with smoke, Bright silver twisted through my lobes.  I know secrets; They are tattooed on my body where the sleeves can cover them, They read   Blessed, and only if we are lucky enough, you and I, courageous enough To shed our clothes together will you read them.    Seeing scarlet leaves drift down, Perhaps, with ice around the moon, or the steel bones of the oaks against Orion, Knowing we are among the blessed, that we miss nothing, that we will eat this life Like a chocolate mango, like Beethoven ice cream, Moaning our joy with each sweet bite. This next one is dedicated to my friend, Ellen Lewis. And it's about getting older. It's about how maybe it's just because I'm very, I'm a very sort of skeptical person, but I always find it a little hard to believe that somewhere, 1975. Isn't still out there; that I could, that I could go to that place again. And those people would be there and it would be that place again somehow. The, the passage of time is kind of baffling to me in a way. So this is called A FAR COUNTRY. It comes in moments, thinking: Oh, that year is still out there somewhere. We could drive Far into the night and come upon it, A world of remembered fashions and faded devices.   But then your bones confirm: no. Those days are gone for always, lost In the strangeness that is the passing of time. We are older now.   Remembering, there is always the will to bring What has been gained on this roadworn way back On that trip: strapped to the roof like campers' gear, Waiting to unfurl and make a new home.   We would have our wisdom and our youth besides then. No aches and infirmities, and optimism bright as peaches, Innocence without inexperience. We would have all We have won by endurance, and cost free.   The far land of the past would take us then, unmake The failures and embarrassments, take The work and sorrow from us, the mistakes, Leaving gold, and we young and beautiful to spend it.   Oh, if it were only so.   But we are not passengers--nor drivers, really: We calve like ice from floes laid down in bygone snows Jagged and dangerous, mostly unseen And float down the currents, rounding Softening Learning our depths as we diminish until Blue with history, curved and scalloped With knowing this great ocean at last We are melted into the vastness of things.   Yucca: Hm. Mark: That's one of my favorites actually.  Yucca: I love that last line melted into the vastness of things.  Mark: Yeah. Cause it's what happens Right? Yucca: Right? Mark: When our time comes, we get disassembled and melted into the vastness of things.  Yucca: Yeah. Well, and that's, that's what, I mean, we weren't anything, but that's what.  Mark: right.  Yucca: And we're just a piece. We're a ripple in that basket for this time. And then the wave dissipates and returns back to just being part of the whole ocean.  Mark: Right,  Yucca: Hm. Mark: right. So this is something for the season. This is called SPRING LAUGHS. It begins with a giggle: The tiniest white tendril reaching from the secret soil Like a child's laugh, the purr of a cat and then Raising, greening leaves and flowers peal across the meadows, Carpet even what was once severe, sere, Frowning brown in summer's dry thatch, A deep belly rumble of soaring chlorophyll Spreading wanton leaves, dangling perfumed sex Climbing to nod and wave come and get me, These meadows, Brazen to the skip of children gathering posies Bees lumbering slow in the crisp morning air You, and I, perhaps, gone down to the stream To lay down in that place, screened by waving rye And the laughter of the stream gurgling out like a baby's delight Playing with our playthings as we do, exploring The whole world green and gripped with the howl of it: Spring come at last. Yucca: That makes me want to get out and be in the spring. Come on spring, be here already. Oh, beautiful. Thank you, mark. Mark: Thank you so much. And the last poem that I'll read, and then I'll tell a story is a Christian heresy poem. This is called MARY MAGDALENE IMPENITENT.   And so I have become an object lesson to these old, dried men. A cautionary tale.  They know nothing, these friends, these hangers-on, They have only their dreams of what was given them, the longed-for balm, Freedom from their secret lusts as seen In the mirror he was for each he met, As Pilate did.  And I.   What they do not tell you in their book fills chests of scrolls In the library of my heart, will die with me.  His sorrow, his rage, his agony They embrace, they exalt, the old men who think this fire in their eyes is his —When it is their own— But his sweetness, his passion, his humanity they choose to forget, confounded That a whore held his confidences, that we shared what they could not, Who would consume him, tear him to pieces and eat him to have what he was.   Who will tell that his skin smelled of honey in the sun?  That his mouth was red As berries, filled with juices, alive on me, how long his fingers were, and gentle,     How his back arched when he spilled into me?  Who will say that he laughed often, And at little things?  That he snored?  Loved figs and pomegranates, But did not care for dates? Who will remember his fear, his questioning?   I cursed the corrupt old men when they took him from me. I cursed God.   And I repent nothing.  Not even this.     Highly maligned and unfairly treated character. Mary Magdalen. Really doesn't get her props.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So now along the lines of something completely different, here is a campfire story. This is called POTOK AND THE HUNDRED-THOUSAND YEAR FIRE. And it's for all my pagan friends out there, because it's really about us. There was a night—long, long ago—when we had captured fire. This was many years before we knew how to make it. We found it in a tree which had been struck by lightning, carried it in a gourd to where we made a camp. And that night, we gathered around where the fire was fed to grow fat and snapping. We saw one another's faces in the flickering light, and felt the warmth even in the dead of night. It was a miracle. No predator would dare come near. And we were all together, in a circle, about the dancing, magical fire. One night, meat was plentiful. A man named Potok had killed a cave bear after a fierce battle. Our bellies were full and grease hissed in the fire, and when we had eaten, Potok stood and told his tale: how he had lured the bear and crept upon it, how his spear went deep, and then he leapt upon the bear with his flint knife. The bear's fangs hung, fresh and bloody, from a thong about his neck. We cheered and ate some more. The next winter, Potok died. We buried him with the bear fangs. But that night at the fire, and many nights thereafter, we told the tale of Potok and the bear. And the tale, as tales will, grew in the telling. There followed many fires. We took fire into caves. We drew the bear, and the cave lion, and the aurochs and the bull. Again and again we returned, our torches flaring, to blow ochre against our hands, flattened against the wall, signifying, we were here. And we told the tale of Potok. We spoke his name over our weapons before we hunted. Before long, we were asking Potok to help us in the hunt. As if he were still alive. As if he still existed. And the tale, as tales will, grew in the telling. There were fires, and fires, and fires. We brought them into our houses. We built cities and learned to plant crops in rows. Circles became lines. And Potok was joined by warriors and heroes and lovers and queens and kings and demons and angels and devils and djinn and ifrit. Until at last they all rolled into one. One hallowed name. And the fires dwindled to tiny candle flames. But still we gathered. Still we whispered the sacred name. Even as we gathered to kill one another. Until—gradually, very slowly—we didn't. We learned. We brought our fire into laboratories and harnessed it for engines and turbines and rockets. We found that they flew just as truly, even when we did not invoke the name of Potok. And so many of us left him behind. In growing numbers, the people no longer spoke the name of a Being who had once been Potok. Which brings us to this night. This fire. At a time when we are finally forgetting the name of Potok. This fire is a place for us to remember the look of each others' faces in firelight. To gaze upward to the Moon, remembering: we went there. To celebrate anew our humanity, our lives on this generous world, now that Potok no longer distracts us from it. One day, generations in the future, the tale may be told of this fire. Of this gathering. Of the People Who No Longer Needed Potok. It is unlikely that our names will be remembered, but the fact that we gathered at this fire may be. The fact that we began to build the culture of those who celebrate living, who revere the Sacred Cosmos, who bind to one another in community and family…all without Potok. And that tale, in all likelihood, will grow with the telling. For that fire will burn not here, no. Look up. To the stars. That fire may well burn up there. Where people will tell their tales of how we sallied forth, armed with knowledge and filled with reverence, to the sky.   Yucca: Thank you mark. Mark: You're welcome. You're welcome.  Yucca: I hadn't heard that one before. I like it. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. It's got a happy ending.  Yucca: It does. Yeah. And, and we, we still gather around our fires.  Mark: we do.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: It's it's hardwired in--the fastest way to make new friends on a beach is to light a fire. People will just look like a magnet. People just come on over.  Yucca: Yep. Yeah. And there's that? There's just something deep. So deep in human to sit around a fire and look up at that sky. The stars, the moon.  Mark: Yeah, there sure is.  Yucca: And the quality of seeing their face lit by that fruit, that flickering dancing flame. Mark: And the smell, the smell of the smoke, all it is just really primordial, just. Gets to parts of yourself that are way below the thinky parts.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: Well, I hope that everyone gets to have. Many fires this year, right?  Mark: But no wildfires.  Yucca: No wildfires.  Mark: No  Yucca: Let's, let's, avoid those. Let's do safe fires that,  Mark: Well controlled domesticated fire.  Yucca: yes. That put out well, and, but, but you know, that, that experience right in it in a safe way, I'm sure that our ancestors. Accidentally and often purposefully caused quite a few. But if we could skip that one today, the purposeful, an accidental war wildfire, but the sitting around and, and even if it isn't, sometimes we can't go outside and have that outside, but there's something that the candle still reminds us of that. Right.  Mark: Yeah,  Yucca: It's. Mark: well, and we're going to get to do that because we're going to century retreat in may.  Yucca: That's all right. Mark: be leaving there three months from today.  Yucca: That's right. And one of those nights weather permitting. We should be having a fire under the, a lunar eclipse. Mark: Yeah, full lunar eclipse. It's just we, And this was an accident we didn't, we didn't plan for it We got that retreat center for the only weekend it was available for the entire year. Yucca: And it happened to be a total lunar eclipse at an, at an hour that most people will still be awake for.  Mark: Exactly. So.  Yucca: So there will be lots of late evening activities during the retreat. But for those of us who can't quite stay up that late, there will also be the option of going to sleep. But the rest of you, I hear are going to have lots of fun in the evening. Mark: Well, that's, that's certainly the plan. Yes. And you can go to atheopagan ism.org and the pinned post at the top of that is all about how you can register to go to the century retreat. It's in Colorado Springs, from the. I want to S w is it The 13th, through the 16th or is it the 16th through the 19th of Yucca: The 13th, let me, let me double check that. But  Mark: so, so I'm wrong about our leaving a month from today? It's actually, it'll already be over.  Yucca: Let's see, let me, I'm pulling up my calendar right here. I remember that it's the beginning of may. So let's see. It is the 13th through 16th.  Mark: Okay.  Yucca: Yep. So it'll be that it's the second weekend of may. And we still have a few. So there's a, there's a few spots left for people who are interested in and we'll both be there and we'll be doing an episode from there. Mark: Yes. Over, over the lunch hour, we'll be interviewing people.  Yucca: Yep. And hopefully we'll be able to be depending on a wifi, hopefully blue people to be publishing that live. But if not, we'll, we'll do it as soon as wifi permits.  Mark: Right, right. But supposedly the wifi is quite good in the dining halls. So. if they're correct about that, then we'll be able to do a live broadcast and that'll be fun.  Yucca: That'd be exciting. Yeah. Well, I have to practice and figure out how to first, but we'll do it. We'll figure it out. So yeah, that's, that's coming up and we would love to tell poetry, tell stories, and read poems and do all of that around the, the campfire with you. Mark: Yes.  Yucca: Yep. Mark: I am. So looking forward to it. I mean, it's, it's just this stacked up layer of wonderful things. First of all, seeing people at all,  Yucca: Yes. Mark: it doesn't even matter who they are, but then seeing these people around a fire in, you know, you know, a wilderness area, it's, just, it's going to be so beautiful. I really can't.  Yucca: you know, it's Ponderosa pine forest, just beautiful. Just wonderful. I haven't been to that specific place yet, but I know the, you know, it's the Rockies. I know the Rockies and they're just. They're amazing and great time of year, you know, we'll have the full moon and it'll be so wonderful to see people in person that we've been hanging out with over zoom and doing meetings and all of that for, you know, two years now. Mark: Yeah. More in some cases. Yeah.  Yucca: Right. So it'll be great. And I'm bringing a couple telescopes too, so we'll have that. Yeah. I think that this is a little bit of a shorter episode than the normal, but mark, thank you for sharing those beautiful poems with us in the story and  Mark: Well thank you for suggesting it. It hadn't occurred to me, but it's, it's nice to get my stuff out there. All right, everyone have a wonderful week and we will see you next week on the wonder science-based paganism.

The Skeptical Witch Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWYaJlQZ7zGSfJv-INEgo1A www.obscureclouds.com   S3E6 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder: Science-based Paganism. I'm your host Mark. Yucca: and I'm Yucca. Mark: And today we have a really exciting episode. We are interviewing Sarah, the skeptical witch who has the skeptical, which channel on YouTube. And it's just a super interesting, fascinating person for us to introduce to our listeners. So welcome, Sarah. Sarah: It's really great to be here. Thank you guys for having me on.  Yucca: And thank you for joining us. So we were trying to narrow down all of the things we could talk about before we started too, before we pressed record, because it sounds like we could spend about five hours just going over everything, but why don't we start, Sarah? Will you, will you introduce yourself? Let us know a little bit about you, about your channel and about who you are and what you're doing. Sarah: Yeah, sure. So I'm yeah, Sarah, the skeptical, which on YouTube I also have a blog of scare clouds and that was kind of like my, my beginning of like kind of putting my, my practices with like witchcraft and paganism online. It started with that blog and both that, and my channel kind of came out of a synthesis of my own spiritual practice and kind of what my academic interests are. So, I first came to like witchcraft and paganism through academia actually through like a school project that I was doing. and kind of fell into it that way and started to craft my own practice. Out of that, out of what I was learning out of the kind of communities that I was engaging with. And I was a student in anthropology for my undergrad and my masters. And within that, I started to engage with like various peg in witchcraft community is, and a lot of, a lot of, kind of like what I was experiencing. There was a very, I guess, Wu or like, You know, SU superstitious or like magical these kinds of things that we, that we might say about it. And didn't really necessarily find that there had to be that kind of connection there. So I kind of began to craft my own kind of like skeptical witchcraft practice and a more like naturalistic kind of paganism or like non-theistic paganism as well. And that just kind of grew into to what I put online now. And I just kind of documented my journey through that and try to combine my, what I'm learning with my, my own practice and Yeah.  Yucca: And was there something that really drew you to the pagan stuff when you were doing your master's and undergrad? Sarah: Yeah, I think well, first of all, the kind of the nature aspect of it was what really, really drew me in. I didn't start studying paganism intentionally. I kind of went into studying alternative, like spirituality with a focus on like new age practices. And from there kind of discussed. Paganism and Neo paganism and these things. And I found that to be really, really fascinating and, and just something about it really clicked with me. So in a kind of an anthropological sense in doing ethnography you'll, you'll often, you know, join in with various community rituals and things. So it was joining in all these rituals. I was talking to all these people. I was learning all about the religion and that, yeah. It just, I felt like the nature part, especially really just clicked with me as well as the kind of like self-improvement aspect of it and the kind of like inner exploration and transformation and things like this. So that was what really drew me in and kind of, got me hooked, I guess.  Mark: you know, it's interesting as you say this, because it seems as though naturalistic paganism is something that just gets invented over and over and over. You know, so many of us have kind of created our own and then discovered that there were other people out there who are also doing it. So it's it's kind of wonderful that way. It apparently there is, there's something out there to be found in the wedding of a naturalistic worldview and a scientifically skeptical mindset with a nature earth worshiping or revering kind of practice. So tell us a little bit about your approach to your witchcraft, to the sorts of ritual. And I don't know if you call it spell work or not, or. That's tough. So the practical kind of implementation stuff.  Sarah: Yeah. So, yeah, I guess I do like what I call like skeptical witchcraft and it has a lot of overlap with like atheistic or like secular witchcraft as well. So like you said, there, there were a lot of people like doing this at the same time that I just didn't really like realize we're doing it and it, it kind of took me a while to find that. So it's cool that like, so many of us have kind of been like crafting our own practices. And there's a lot of like similarities there. So, so yeah, my like my particular approach to it is yeah. Using things like spells or like divination or ritual things that would be kind of in a more mainstream witchcraft practice and kind of taking the. I guess the more like supernatural magical elements out of it. So for me, it's largely psychological the way that I approach my witchcraft. So it's, it's largely about you know, setting intentions and like manifesting these intentions, not through transforming like actual physical reality, like out there in the world, but through kind of changing my own mindset, the way that I think about things improving my confidence in a lot of circumstances, you know, changing the way that I see things so that I can then change my own reality. Right. So it's Yeah. less about kind of changing the external world. And a lot of it has to do with like the placebo effect as well as kind of like a suspension of disbelief. And then I also kind of, I don't practice, like what's called chaos, magic and witchcraft necessarily, but like I do like the kind of idea coming out of chaos magic that belief can be used as a tool. And it's not so much necessarily like explanations that matter, but experiences that do. So sometimes I will use that like suspension of disbelief to kind of like allow myself in the moment to like believe in the reality of magic, believe in like the reality of stereotypes or, or something. And, and use that to, to benefit me, even if I like rationally know, like, like that kind of underlying level, that it's not actually true. It's, I'm using belief in the moment as a tool to, to kind of create these experiences and allow myself to to have those really like transformative moments.  Mark: Yeah, that's, you're, you're really singing our tune here. there's, there's so much power in that suspension of disbelief and the acting as if, you know, we, we all talk about the imposter syndrome, how we find ourselves in these roles where there's this voice in us going, I don't really know how to do this. How did they give me this job? Right. And that, that acting as if makes us able to do the job and to grow into the ability to do what we were, you know, what what's expected of us. I, I just think that all of that stuff is so fascinating and it's very similar to the way that I do my own ritual practices at my, at my focus or alter and in rituals, out in the world, Yucca: Can we, can we come back around to, to the too skeptical? Right? So you've got the skeptical, which, and what does that part mean to you? Right. So what is it to be a skeptic or skeptical? Because that has some strong connotations, that word in our, in our culture. So how are you using that? Sarah: Yeah, for Sure I guess that's just like where I was coming from it with with the skeptical idea was kind of just always questioning things. Never, just kind of accepting things like at face value, always having that like kind of inquisitive mind. And I think that that's important when it comes to like, you know, anything really. So like whether it's the supernatural or whether it's, you know, mainstream science, like, I think it's always important to be kind of asking questions and, and having like a skeptical outlook and not necessarily in like a negative way, but I think that that can be a positive. But then, yeah. But on the flip side, I also do kind of. I think that embracing mystery and sometimes knowing when to stop asking questions can also be a good thing as well. And I do try to find that balance too.  Yucca: Nice. Mark: skeptical, but not cynical. Sarah: Yeah. exactly. I like.  Mark: Yeah. So, you, the, the other part of, of introducing you is that you are a PhD camp. And religious studies and you're doing your work on naturalistic, paganism and naturalistic religious paths, which is so fascinating. I mean, if, if I had, if I were in grad school again, if it were 30 years ago or whatever it was that is a direction that I almost certainly would have gone. So I'm really interested in what you're learning and what those experiences are and what, how that's changing your perspective on the world. And what's important. All that kind of thing.  Sarah: Yeah,  Mark: There. Wasn't a question in there. I'm sorry. I. Sarah: No, no. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm, I'm very happy that like, yeah, I guess the state of. Yeah, academia right now is such that I. can kind of study these more like obscure topics, things that probably would have been like laughed at like 15 years ago. So it's cool that this is becoming more and more acceptable. And actually one of the one of my committee members has actually studied atheopagan in the past as  well. So it's really interesting to know that it's kind of, spreading within the academic world as well. Yeah. So yeah, I'm, I'm really interested in my own personal research is probably going to be focusing on the connection between like religion and science and the environment. And these are topics that are sometimes discussed in relation to one another, but never like all three of them usually, like there isn't much kind of discussion around the intersection of all three of those. So that's kind of where I'm hoping to fill a bit of a gap. And I guess I'm really interested in like the question of secularization and like how that's transforming religion and religious meaning and spirituality and how. How people find transcendence and kind of, meaning beyond the individual ego within the modern secular world. And one of the ways that people are finding that is, is through nature now. And that's kind of replacing more traditional, like organized religion or like church structures nowadays. So that's yeah, that's the one kind of aspect of it. And also just how, like, even scientists are reporting feelings of like transcendence kind of just in the lab, looking at, you know, natural phenomena or astronauts kind of looking at it, or having these moments of awe and like, really like spiritually profound moments. So I'm really interested in, in how transcendence and like that experience is shifting and changing today. And Yeah. Also considering contested relationships that exist between like religion and the environment, and also like science and the environment. And so, and, and also religion and science, like for a lot of people, religion and science seem to be like polar opposites and that's not necessarily the case and religions like atheopagan ism and other forms of religious naturalism are really like challenging that binary. And it's just kind of interesting to explore how things are really shifting today.  Mark: Yeah. I, I find it fascinating, you know, kind of, you know, Yucca and I are both kind of in the middle of it because we're kind of working to get, put this out into the world. And to me, it just seems so natural now. I mean, I think when I was first exploring these ideas, religion and science were kind of bashing against one another, but when I stopped. Looking at it that way they seem to dovetail very well. And that, that sense, I don't really like the word transcendence very much except for sort of transcending the individual into some, you know, larger state of some consciousness of, of connection and place in the universe. It seems to me that what's happening is we're moving into an era of spiritual agency where people are able to choose their own paths rather than having them kind of force fed to them. And what they're going back to is what is most inspiring and nature is what is most inspiring and space. I mean, space is very, very inspiring. It's part of Yucca: nature, right? Nature. Yeah. It's all connected. Right? We liked it as humans. We like to separate. Okay. This is chemistry. This is physics. This is space. This is neat, but no, like it's all connected, right? Yeah. Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Mark: So I think this is a very exciting time to be getting involved with these questions. And there are a lot of people out there who are hungry for this. Have so many experiences of it on the atheopagan doesn't Facebook group of people coming in and saying, you know, I had no idea that anybody else felt this way. And I thought I was the only one and I found my people and this is just the most wonderful thing. And it, it makes, it makes me imagine a world. Where people could be taught from a young age that their spirituality is their own and they could be taught ritual skills so that they can sort of discover for themselves what's meaningful. I find that the further I go down this path, the more my vision of the world is veering away from the way it actually there's a lot of change that needs to happen. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, no, that's an interesting point though. And I think that that's like a really wonderful vision for the future too. And I do wonder, like, as someone who studies like alternative spirituality, like I do see things kind of going in that direction in some sense. So like a lot of like American spirituality today is, is very individualistic and it's criticized for that in some ways, but it can also be a good thing and that it's, you know, it's more about discovering what works for you and you know yeah, exactly. Like kind of giving you the, the, the tools for ritual and then kind of letting you discover what you will with that.  Yucca: Hmm. So Sarah, how does one go about studying and researching these topics? Because these are amazing questions, but w where does one even start? Right? This is such a huge, huge field, right? Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, I'm actually in the midst of doing my my comprehensive exams right? now. And I just did my general comprehensive exams and I'll be moving into my field comprehensive exams. And so I'm going to be studying kind of my committee is just going to put together a large list of books for me, like on these topics to kind of give you that, that foundation for, for actually going and then doing the research. And then the research that I'm hoping to do is going to be a mostly online ethnography, I think. So I'll be hopefully like engaging in various like religious naturalist kind of communities online and learning about it from the people who actually practice it. Like the, the secondary research is important. But it's, it's really that primary research. Define what we learned from this, what I learned from it, I guess.  Yucca: Right. So, so for our listeners, the secondary would be what you're talking about, digging into the existing research, right? Like you're going to learn, read all the books that you can find everything that's out there. And then you're going to do your primary research, which is the unique. Nobody has done this before. You're going to be, go into communities, ask questions, observe, be recording. What you, what you see and hear is that, am I understanding correctly?  Sarah: Yeah. yeah, exactly. Yeah.  Mark: Well, we have a golden opportunity for you coming up in may. If you want to do some field research, we're doing the century retreat in Colorado Springs in may. We would be delighted to have you come and join. A bunch of atheopagan is doing atheopagan things, rituals, fellowship, and all that. Sarah: Yeah, that. sounds fantastic. Yeah,  Mark: I'll send you some information about it. Yeah. Sarah: perfect. Yeah. that'd be great. Thank you.  Mark: You're welcome. Be great to have you there. Yucca: So after, after your, your kind of literature review set part of your studies, then you're going to be coming up with a specific question you're looking for an answer to, that, is that how it works?  Sarah: yeah. Yeah, exactly. So after these exams, they kind of, the literature review. I'm gonna create my, my proposal basically. That will then allow me to go and actually figure out what the answer to that question is. So  Yucca: then you create a lot of literature of your own to add to that body, right? That's part of the process, Sarah: hopefully that's the goal. Yeah.  Mark: and so, and I realized that this is a really dirty question to ask a PhD candidate. What is your vision for what you'll do with this is your plan to go into academia and teach in religious studies or to be a chaplain or to be a naturalistic clergy member of some kind or. Sarah: Yeah. I mean, I, I'm hoping to go into academia further, but unfortunately right now it's, it's it's not looking good for new  Yucca: the changing world. Sarah: Yeah.  So unfortunately, you know, we'll see if that's actually a reality, but I, I do hope to, to write a lot on kind of what I've discovered, like that's kind of my number one passion. And I think that got me into academics in the first place was just a love for writing. So hopefully that's something that I'll be able to do, regardless of whether I actually get hired in a university or not.  Mark: great. Great. You could write the the naturalistic paganism drawing down the moon for the 21st century. It'd be great.  Sarah: Yeah.  Mark: Yeah. I was listening to one of your or watching one of your YouTube videos recently, and you were talking about post humanism and I'm really interested in that because I feel that. a lot of, a lot of how our spiritual orientations are trying to sort of steer the ship of history is in a more nature revering ecosystem, respecting direction. And of course it's very slow, but that perspective of getting beyond humanism, beyond the focus, simply on the human and the benefit to the human and that's, that's not discounting the human as I, at least as I understand it, it's encompassing of the human, but it expands to be so much more. What, tell us about that. That would be.  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah post humanism is kind of like a philosophy worldview or just kind of a an approach to kind of thinking about things. That's very much a reaction against like enlightenment humanism, so that focus on human beings as these like bounded rational subjects that exists in kind of like this isolated world of their own. They're kind of separate from the rest of the world. They're separate from other people. There's an emphasis on dualisms and humanism. So kind of creating that separation between self and other self and world human and, or like nature and culture and postmodernism is just reacting against that and really trying to deconstruct those dualisms. And there's a lot of like that enlightenment humanist kind of thinking, that's still within a lot of our modern systems and like a lot of our modern ways of thinking about things. So, that's, that's kind of where post-feminism is coming from. And it especially plays a role in how I approach, like thinking about the environment and ecology, and also spirituality is like part of that. So, I guess one of the Major kind of criticisms of, of like environmentalism or like conservation ism today. And this is something that you guys can maybe enlightened me about a little bit as well, is that there's a very like subject object. Dichotomous way of thinking about things. So the researcher or like science in general, like this kind of scientific body of knowledge will often be positioned as having this like neutral kind of God's eye view. That's like separate from the actual natural world, separate from things as they are. And, and it's like a very disembodied kind of way of thinking about things that doesn't think about human beings necessarily as, as part of that like natural world. And I guess we see this a lot in kind of like resource management kind of based ways of thinking about ecology and Ways of thinking about it that are very focused on like the economy and things. So I, the post-human approach and like new materialism, which is a part of that. And all of this is kind of part of a of a critique of that and a critique of like, this is a barrier that's really constructed between like nature and culture. And I know that that's like also something that like atheopagan ism is, is concerned with and the, you guys have kind of discussed on the podcast as well. And so. There have been arguments within like science and technology studies or like environmentalism that say we need kind of like a, a spiritual perspective almost to kind of combat that, that divide and to kind of be thinking about forming more like ethical reciprocal relationships with the non-human world in ways that are like actually helpful to both us ans and the non-human world. So, yeah, so I think like a post-human perspective and a spiritual perspective can go hand in hand in that sense. And I, that's kind of how I connect them in my own thinking. So yeah. I wonder what you guys think of other thought as well.  Yucca: Oh so much. Mark: Yes, Yucca: so much in that. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah.  Mark: have no dispute here. Yucca: Yeah. I mean, there was, there was just so, like, I love everything that you were saying and just, you know, my mind just went full of things to comment upon that. My, my original background is in resource management, so, range, ecology and management, and then agricultural ecology before I went into planetary science. So I still actually work as an ecologist and a restoration ecologist specifically for range land. And one of the, the things that I've seen in the field is that a lot of science we're coming from this reductionist point of view and reductionism is really, really helpful and useful way of thinking. It's a tool. And in ecology, we've been starting to move away from that into a more systems thinking emergence, sort of. That starts to see the connections, but there's, there's still more right? There's that the ethics piece that you were talking about, which is what I think things like permaculture tries to address that's guided with the like, oh, let's have, you know, people care and fair share and are sharing all of that. But there's this tricky place where we get into where we run into things like our confirmation bias that we talk about a lot on this podcast that we haven't figured out a way to do really good science and also bring in the, the systems thinking enough, I think because we, we get into this place where we were humans. We're not very good at telling the difference between what we think and what we feel. And we confused my, my emotional response to what this land looks like or what, you know, I believe about this particular animal or that animal. And we kind of let that in. And so I think there's a lot of resistance with scientists of not wanting the, all of that bias to come in. And that's part of, what's like trying to hold back. The let's not think about that side of it because we, we don't want to be doing bad science, but we haven't gotten to the point of where we need to bring more, to expand our understanding of what these systems are kind of rambling here, but yeah, Mark: No, I, I, I, I think what you're saying is absolutely true. And part of the problem is that in the scientific frame, we discount the experiential and subjective Yucca: right. Mark: and the experiential, we discounted to the point that we throw it away entirely. Yucca: Yeah. So we're putting the baby out with the bath water because it's important, but we also don't want it to take over the objective part, right? Mark: Yeah. You don't want to romanticize the, the natural system that you're looking at to the degree that you can't make any decisions anymore about how to relate to it. Yucca: yeah. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And I guess kind of like adding to that, like another aspect of post-feminism is giving voice to people's who have been previously silenced by who have not necessarily been considered human because they have not been considered, you know, rational. Communities people. So like indigenous peoples for example and post-feminism kind of is trying to center those voices a little more. And I think that that's also like something in ecology as well, that we're seeing too, like taking these more kind of like spiritual, not necessarily like Western science-based kind of perspectives and applying that to how we understand our relationships with the environment and how they can be improved and things. So, is that something that you've noticed as well? Like maybe more so  Mark: Some  Sarah: ecology today? A little bit.  Mark: it, the challenge that I've experienced, because most of my involvement has been well, there've been kind of two buckets of what I've done. I've done a lot of advocacy, a lot of public organizing and advocacy on behalf of, of nature. And then I've also worked in the restoration field. Basically generating the funding to pay for restoration projects. I'm not designing those projects. That's not my area, but what I've seen, especially on the advocacy side is that there is such complete contempt for the experiential on the part of economic interests. Then it becomes very difficult to even get them in the room. You know, there's the whole NIMBY thing, right? Not in my backyard is an accusation that gets made by everybody who wants to do some God awful earth ribbing project. And their, their response is, well, this is my land. And I want to maximize the economic value that I can get out of it. And it doesn't matter, you know, if it doesn't matter what a complete. Blight on the land. It's going to be, as long as they can quantify that there, they won't have polluted runoff or air quality impacts or any of those kinds of things. You know, the simple fact that something is an abomination, doesn't get into the discussion. Yucca: My, my situation we live in, in very different areas. I'm in Northern New Mexico, which is very interesting cultural area. And there's a lot of, of tensions that are, are, you know, centuries old tensions around land use and management. Because we have, we, we talk about it as being three different main groups, but it's it's much, much more complex than that. So we have the pueblos here, so we've got the tribes and then we have the old Spanish families and then we have the newer Anglos. And then a lot of that land is managed now by forest service and BLM and from almost everyone's perspective, it was stolen from them. So there's a whole. Going on with that. But what I have been often involved with, because again, my area is actually in range. Ecology is dealing with public lands where there will be people with very, very strong ideas about what animals are good and what aren't and what things should look like and what things shouldn't look like. And I think a lot of it is also like they would never admit it, but I think a lot of it is, is racially motivated because the people who are. Ranchers. Aren't Anglo. And so there's a, there's a lot of like people who come in, especially from, other states and Northern, sorry, Northern California can come in with very strong ideas about how the land should be managed and about what's environmentally right. And not, and have a really hard time listening to what the people are saying. And to, to even be able to see that something like a cow could be good, right. If the people have these really strong ideas, they come in with the, like the super vegan bias and all of that. And like, oh, you can't don't touch the land. And it's pristine wilderness and forgetting, but people have been here for thousands of years and people have been here for hundreds of years and that there, that there's there's. There's the science, there's also the way that people manage culturally. And we have to consider all of those things, not just, and also that some of the signs that they're bringing in might not be good science that they're claiming, right.  That they don't understand how ranges work and how these systems work. And so where I live, it's, it's there's just a lot of, of tension and there's a lot of, people trying to work this out and different, cultural groups clashing and not really being able to talk about what's really going on. And it's a lot of, it's very emotional and old trauma and people totally oblivious. And I mean, that's, this could be a whole, it is many, many podcasts. Lots of people do this. But it's a very interesting area. So I know that you, you kind of coming back to your question about do we see that in our fields. That the, there being a, a growing awareness. And I think that there, there is a growing awareness. I see a lot of places where we need the work. Right. It's a very where I live. It's, it's very raw. It's very, very real. And it's right. Like I, you know, I, I don't know if you can hear it, but I, you know, have very strong feelings about it because I look at as a range of colleges, I look at the land and I, and I see that it's, that it's very, very damaged land. But then, you know, it's hard to say that because there'll be people who, who go, but it's so beautiful. Right. You know, leave it alone. Don't do anything. Don't touch it. And then ecologists like myself going, if we don't touch it, we're losing it. Mark: It it'll get covered with star thistle and nothing else. Yucca: or nothing. We're talking about land that has, that is we do not have soil in these areas and they're going, oh no, this is natural. And I'm like, this does not look that this erosion here, like we have to do something and they say, no, no, no humans have messed it up. Humans can't go in and touch it. You know, we we've messed everything up, but it's like, well, okay. But if the broken bone is broken, you need to set that bone. You've got to get involved. Or else, I guess we could let nature take its path in that. And just as in, let it degrade even further and lose even more biodiversity where we can take some steps. Right. so Mark: the big piece that I hear missing from your description of the situation, and it's the same one that I experienced up here is the concept of reciprocity that we have. Responsibilities to land and animals and water and air and trees and all that kind of thing. And that, that w what we take has to be balanced by what we give. And that's just such an alien concept in the west that it, it almost never even gets voiced. Yucca: Well, and, and at least for this half of the continent, I think it it's, we're not at a point of balance. We're at a point of, we need to be giving more because we have such degraded lands and, and being that humans have such short lifespans, we may not recognize that at first, right. We might look out at the west or we might look out at the planes and go, oh, this is beautiful. And it is beautiful, but it's also hurt and sick and we can, we can see that it needs to be that. That it is degrading and that it's going to keep degrading unless we do something. So, Mark: Okay. Yucca: Yeah,  Sarah: yeah, no, for sure. Yeah. And I think that that's also, I guess, I guess like a perspective that could tie into post you as, as well just like kind of going back to that like the, the idea of like pure nature is, is just an illusion and to have that human intervention is not a bad thing. And yeah. And I guess there have been some like, oh, sorry, go ahead.  Yucca: part of nature, right? Like that's showing this idea that like, human shouldn't intervene. Well, no, but, but we're here and at least where I'm sitting right now, we've been here for about 20,000 years, right. Or more, but at least 20,000 years, we know that, right. Like humans, we talk about us as if we're oh, humans intervening, but, but no matter what we do, we're influencing. The system so we can choose what we're like, we're making choices either way. So, and I'm sorry, Sarah. I jumped, I was very excited and  Sarah: Oh no, Yeah. no, no. Yeah. exactly. No, that's a great point. And yeah, it was just going to say, like, this is also something that like, you know, indigenous people, like who have been on this land for thousands of years, like they've, they've known that for, for millennia. And you know, that's kind of where I think listening to these voices can be really important and then kind of learning from that. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Yeah. And indigenous people, some, some indigenous people have in their history, the experience of the disaster of mismanagement of land, right. There are, you know, abandoned civilizations where, you know, soil got so depleted that it just couldn't produce food anymore. And people had to move out and go somewhere else. The end. That's very powerful lesson, you know, I would think you would learn a lot from having to disrupt your culture that seriously. So I've been thinking a lot lately about vision for the future. I mean, I, I think of atheopagan ism is as having a definite political component to it and and it, and a visionary component for how humans can live with one another and with the earth with the rest of the earth, because we are of course the earth. And I wonder. wonder whether your research is going to move, it will include any like speculation about where naturalistic spirituality is going. Or if you have thoughts about that or, you know, what the trends are that you see happening,  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think that that's, I mean, like, that's honestly, probably like one of the big questions that my research is going to be asking, because I think that is like a really important question. And I think, you know, what, what I've seen so far is that. What's really important is this shift in mindset that we've been talking about, like kind of moving away from like that, that divide between like peer nature and like human and nature and culture, and like, you know, breaking down those barriers and entering into like more reciprocal relationships with the non-human and kind of seeing it in more of a kinship sense. And I guess, yeah, like one of the big questions that I do want to ask is like, how can religions help us in this? Like it beyond the context of those specific religions, right? Like how can this become more of a, a political or global kind of thing that we're thinking about? And You know, I don't necessarily like have an answer for that yet, but that is something that I do hope to answer. And I think that it's, it's really going to be the people that I talk to or who are going to be answering that. And like, it's going to come out of, you know, seeing, seeing the work that they're doing and the kind of mindsets that they have and the approaches that they take to engaging with the environment and considering how, how we can learn from that in, in a, in a more broad kind of sense. So, yeah, it's definitely an important question.  Yucca: One of the things that you talked about being really interested in was how, how people find meaning and importance and talking about how in, in some of these forms of paganism, like an atheopagan ism and other alternative religions that are more nature-based and science-based how people are, are looking for that meaning. Is that something that, I mean, can you speak to that a little bit?  Sarah: Yeah. Do you mean like from a personal  Yucca: no. Oh, either way, like from a personal sense or things or trends that you've been seeing, I know you're just getting started with your research, but are there particular trends that you're seeing. Sarah: yeah. Yeah, so I think that like in general they're often like when thinking about like modern, secular society from, from kind of a mainstream perspective, there's often been this idea that like, you know, rationalization and like this kind of. The more scientifically become the less and chanted the world becomes. And the less like, meaningful the world becomes an kind of like an ethical or like sacred sense. And I think from what I've been studying, this isn't the case at all, like secularization may cause like, a decline in more organized forms of religion. But I think it also increases religious pluralism and it increases like more kind of individual approaches to, to finding spiritual meaning. And I think that we're also really seeing like a blurring of the sacred and the secular and that's, that's also something I'm really interested in is how you know, things that would have once been considered secular, like nature are becoming very spiritual and people are finding kind of their own version of the divine in that, whatever that may be. Or the transcendent and I don't mean that in like a God way necessarily. I just mean it in, I think kind of what you said, mark, like, something that's bigger than, than you kind of sense or like a, a sense of yeah, just, just meaning that, that goes beyond that, like ego or, or kind of our, our everyday lives that we're caught up in and things like that. So, yeah, so nature is kind of one area even science, sports, you know, also like popular culture and materialism, like even, even that can be like a place where people are finding like maybe not spiritual experiences, but like different kinds of, like, of meaning and, and yeah, if that kinda makes sense.  Mark: Sure. Well, I mean, under, under capitalism, what you accumulate is who you are. So, you know, the, your identity gets all bound up in the meaning of your life. It's all bound up in, you know, your wealth and your possessions. Oh, that kind of stuff. So, I mean, I'm, I really hope we can move away from that because it's incredibly destructive, but there's no doubt that acquisition is something that many people find gives them meaning in their life. And I think that's why we have a lot of people who have kind of a hole in the middle of them. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, sure, sure.  Yucca: So Sarah, when you, when you speak of secular or secularization, what do you, what do you mean by that? Right. Because a lot of the, cause you're talking about religion, but secular this, it could be a little bit like I'm a little bit confused sometimes on what does that really mean? Right? Is it just not organized religion or is it no religion at all? Is that word changing? Its meaning over time. Sarah: Yeah, for sure. I mean, yeah, that's a good question. I should have addressed that kind of going into it, but it is like a really complex question too. So like secularization, as we generally think about it kind of comes out of like the 1960s sociology and like that general idea was just like a decline in religion in modern society. So that's like, that's the typical way of thinking about secularization is that like, you know, as you know, we learn more about the world and we have kind of more scientific knowledge about the world around us religious religions they were thought anyway to that they would be declining. And, and we're not necessarily seeing that. So. The secular in general is more just like this idea that we live now in a society where, well, the way that I see it anyway, there's many different ways of approaching it, but like it's more than we just, we live in a society where we, where religion is, is an option. Now it's one option among many kind of, so, You know, whereas like 200 years ago it would have been pretty like unthinkable that you weren't religious in some sense. Right. But now it's, it's, you know, it's just an option and belief isn't like the default anymore. And so that's kind of like the idea of the secular as I'm talking about it. And Yeah. So, secularization is also something that I'm going to be kind of looking at in my own research. And it's something that my supervisor is kind of looking at and just like this idea of, we need to redefine what secularization actually is, because we're not seeing this decline in religion. That was that was predicted in, in the way that it was predicted. Religion is changing, but it's not disappearing Yucca: So, was it referring in the beginning when, like not being religious to not being one of like the big three kind of,  Sarah: kind of,  Yucca: religion at all? Cause I know there's been over time, there's been back and forth about what people consider religion. That's one of the things that atheopagan get thrown at them a lot. So he can't possibly be a religion cause you're not, you don't believe in a God. Right. And people have said that about Buddhism and people have said that about, you know, a lot of the Eastern religions or things like that. Sarah: Yeah, no, for sure. It was definitely like thought that kind of yeah, like religion in general and like, just like a religious way of seeing things. So like, I guess in opposed to like a scientific way of seeing things. But also there's no necessarily no necessarily kind of like harsh divide between those things but, but yeah, I guess like secularization in the, in the 1960s, when it was first kind of theorized was, was very much of a, like um, yeah, these kind of main organized religious traditions and they are kind of declining. I think that. but in like an organized sense. more just they're changing, I guess.  Mark: Sure because I mean, the spiritual impulse is something that's baked into us. You know, many of us have kind of culturally headed hammered out of us. Particularly men. I mean, when I, when I look at mainstream men, I they're, they're permitted an effect is so narrow. They're allowed to be aggressive or angry. That's their emotional range. And they've got this work ethic about, you know, work yourself to death and, you know, don't, don't acknowledge when things are going wrong with your body and all that kind of stuff. But it seems as though. Given an opportunity given, given a culture that fosters it, the spiritual impulse is something that pretty much everybody has because it answers big questions about who am I and what does it mean to be alive and how should I live? And, you know, those are, those are important questions to get answered for yourself. So I think this idea from the sixties that we were going to become more and more rational actors in a sort of economic sense it just flies in the face of reality. I talk about this in my book a little bit. You know, the reason that Richard Dawkins is barking up the wrong tree is that he assumes that humans are these rational creatures. If they can just get all that damn religion out of their minds. And we are inherently biologically, not rational actors, the nature of our brains as they evolved, prevent us from being rational actors, which is why science is so valuable because it enables us to kind of filter out the subjectivity as best we can and draw conclusions. But I dunno, I'm ranting now, but I, I just feel like spirituality is something that's always going to be with us for as long as we're human.  Sarah: for sure. And I really like appreciated that part of your, your book was kind of discussing like, that aspect of human cognition that is just kind of inclined towards spirituality or religion, or like finding meaning in some way. And I think it's, it's very true and this kind of assumption that we would just become like overly rational and kind of let go of that spiritual impulse. I think it was kind of fundamentally flood and that's why we're not seeing it. And Yeah. Mark: Well, let me ask this. Is there anything you would like for our listeners to know about you're thinking about, you know, what you're learning that you're you find surprising or edifying or something that really people really need to know? Sarah: That's, that's a good question. One thing that I've just kind of experienced, I guess, just from like, Do we like having this YouTube channel and having a blog and everything and kind of putting what I'm learning online is that my thinking is constantly changing. And I'll go back like, and listen to like a video that I did a year ago. And I'll think like, you know, I still hold some of those beliefs, but a lot of them have changed and it's just kind of constantly changing. And I think that, I guess that's maybe something that I'd want people to know, like if they watched my content. But other than that I guess just the importance of finding your own path when it comes to spirituality and religion and witchcraft. I get like a lot of. Comments from viewers saying that, you know, they, they always felt like they couldn't practice witchcraft or they couldn't be religious because there's just this very, you know, they kind of see the mainstream dominant way of practicing witchcraft or being religious and, and they, they don't see themselves in that. But I think that, you know? having discussions like these and like your, your your podcast and like, your work and everything that kind of goes to show that there are different ways of, of being a Pegan today. And there are different ways of practicing witchcraft and, and being religious. And you don't have to kind of conform to. but what seems to be expected in that sense. And even if people find it weird, even if people find it confusing there is always going to be someone who thinks similarly to you. And it's just a matter of finding that, I think. Mark: But I saw a bumper sticker once it said something like there are others. Go find them.  Sarah: Yeah,  Mark: However alone you feel there are others go find them, Yucca: well, and that's how it always starts. Right? What's normal to us and expected today was weird and strange. And there were just only a few people doing it at one point, right. We, today we can sit here and talk about mainstream paganism. Right? Think about that for a moment. That was not that wasn't something we, that one used to be able to do. Everything was weird and confusing and kind of, you know, looked down the nose at, but now the whole movement is growing and, and it's going to be changing and. And, you know, you can fit into it or not. There's a way that works for you. Sarah: Yeah.  Mark: When WCA has been referenced, recognized by the U S government as a, as an official religion for purposes of the military, that's a, that's a pretty big step. Yucca: Yeah. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. definitely. Yeah. It's not so fringe anymore.  Mark: Right? Right. Well, you know, do believe that a lot of what's happening with the, the, the rise of the nones, N O N E S in, certainly in the United States has to do with people flocking away from the hardcore right-wing ideologies of many of those religious entities and paganism by and large is not. It's generally something that's much more inclusive, much more tolerant, much more progressive. It's about people developing themselves and being the best people they can be. And it's about a better world. And I, you know, for the same reasons that people are attracted to star Trek, I think they get attracted to, you know, being part of a movement. That's about being better people and being part of a better world.  Sarah: Yeah, definitely.  Mark: Well, Sarah, this has been wonderful. It has really been enjoyable to talk with you about all this. And as Yucca said, we could go on for another three hours about all the, all the things. I really encourage people to check out your YouTube channel the skeptical, which Yucca: LinkedIn, the show notes. Mark: Good. Okay. Very thoughtful, very interesting engaging stuff. So, and we, we really appreciate your coming on the podcast. It's been great to have you here. Sarah: Yeah, it's been really great to be on here. So thank you guys so much.  Yucca: Thanks Sarah.  

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E5 TRANSCRIPT: ----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts, Yucca.  Mark: And I'm the other one, Mark.  Yucca: And today we're talking about imagination, fantasy and Richard. Mark: Right?  Yucca: And we thought this was a, a lovely time to talk about it because for many people we're just coming out of are still really in a season of that, that we associate with new beginnings, with planning, with with planting those seeds for the, for the year to come. Mark: Right. Because in many places like yours, Yucca the ground is frozen and there's not a whole lot that you can be doing towards making something new, grow for the rest for the coming year, other than to think about it and imagine the future.  Yucca: And play on it and. Mark: And plan, you know, based on your imagined picture of that future, then you can plan the steps to get there. Right. And that is really the human special trick of all of all. I mean, we talk about our thumbs and they're great. Of all the things that humans are particularly capable of and adept at it's our ability to envision the imagined. And that includes the imagined future. and. what that means is that we have become creatures who are built around storytelling. There was an anthropologist, I don't remember his name, who, who actually called us homo something. I don't remember what it was, which meant the storytelling ape. Yeah.  Yucca: Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. 'cause that's what we do. Whatever, whatever culture you look at, wherever in the world, we're all telling stories. And we start that at a very, very young age, even before we're, we've really figured out the grammar of our mother language. We're telling stories we're playing. And that's, you know, when you look at at mammals mammals, And they play at whatever it is that they need to learn to succeed and survive as an adult. So you look at the low line Cubs and they're wrestling with each other and chasing each other and grabbing each other's tails. Well, humans, yeah, we run around and rough and tumble, but we play make-believe. From very, very early on, you know, we're picking up the sock and, you know, the feather and their characters in our minds, and they have incredible stories and personalities and interactions and, and all of that. And, and so that's what we really do. And that's, that's what that's part of what makes us successful. As a species and as individuals in our species is our ability to tell those stories, imagine, and to share those stories. Mark: Yes, exactly. And what this tells us of course is because this is happening at such an early age, is that this really is baked into us. This is, you know, something that comes in at a very low level of our development. And it's essential to us, you know, our ability to understand the idea of causality of action and consequence is, you know, and that things happen along a timeline, right? That there are, there are actors and those actors do things and those things have consequences. And so there's a result. And that that's the order that things happen. All of those are things that we have to learn, but we get them really early. And one of the things about our capacity for imagination is that our brains are not really built to distinguish the imagined from the. And this is the great paradox with memory, of course, because memories get edited all the time. You know, they, they, every time we retell a story to ourselves things get a little fuzzy around the edges and we just touch them up.  Yucca: Just fill that in.  Mark: Yeah. Just, you know, because we want the memory to be complete. It is not a volitional activity. There's nothing wrong with it. It's not about being dishonest. It's the way our brains work.  Yucca: Yeah. And it's, it's not really a conscious thing that we're doing. That's it's not like you're choosing, usually you're usually not choosing to modify that memory, but. And you're just filling in the details then  Mark: Right, right.  Yucca: it's like with our vision, you, you can actually see this. If you take your finger out, put it all the way to the edge of your vision, your peripheral vision, and slowly move your finger into the, in the front of your vision. You're going to find that you've got some blind spots. But we don't notice those blind spots. Our brain just fills it in for us, unless you're really, really looking for that blind spot. Mark: Right. Yeah. And that of course is caused by the place where the optic nerve connects with the retina. It doesn't have any light sensing cells over it. There's an actual hole in our vision, in our brains. Well, they do two things they fill in that hole to start with. And then they flip the whole thing upside down because our eyes actually project the lens in our eyes projects, an upside down image onto the retina at the back of the eye.  Yucca: Right. Just like a telescope, right? It works the same way. Is there a refractor? Yeah. Mark: Yeah. So. You know, our brains are doing a lot of stuff to massage our experience. Right. And this is something that we talk about a lot in non theists, paganism in terms of understanding supposedly supernatural experiences. Right. Because in every case with every experience we have, there is the, the perception. And then there's the story we developed to explain the perception  Yucca: Right. Mark: and the story. We actually have some choices about the perception. Our brain just does what it does and frequently it's trying to fill in very poor data. So we hear things that. That sound didn't actually come into our ears to create, or we see things that aren't created. My favorite example, I've used this before is when you're driving on the highway and there's a sign for an exit far, far down the road, and you could read it barely. You can see, you know, what road it is that that is the exit for, and as you get about halfway closer, those letters all rearrange themselves into what it actually said. Because your brain was trying to make sense out of the sign and it gave you one determination and the truth is it was something else.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So the, our, our minds are incredibly powerful in how they can develop imagination in order to fill in the holes of what we perceive.  Yucca: Right. Another example is when you, somebody says something to you and you didn't really quite catch it and you hear something that's completely different than what they said. And you know, you have to say, wait, what did you say? Because what I heard.  Mark: Okay.  Yucca: Definitely was not what you said, and then they say it again and he couldn't. Oh, then it makes sense. Right. But we just fill it in. We hear something that's not really there.  Mark: Right. And that, in my opinion is where a lot of experiences of the supernatural come from. It's a. Femoral data that the brain fills in, and then it develops a story that this isn't a supernatural experience. Other people have different opinions about that, but it seems to me given what we know about the brain and about the universe, it's a lot more likely than the supernatural explanations that are often presented by people.  Yucca: Okay. That's what I suspect as well. Yeah.  Mark: So  Yucca: this is, oh.  Mark: Oh, go ahead.  Yucca: I was going to say, this is a little bit about the, so some of the why's we have this powerful imagination. But once we, we know and acknowledge that about ourselves, we can do so much with it and it can be a really empowering and just fun and delightful thing. Mark: Right. Which is why we love to read fiction. It's why we love to watch movies and television presentations and all  Yucca: Play games and yeah. Mark: yeah, we love our stories and we, we love, you know, Waiting to find out what happens at the end because we know that something will happen at the end and we're, we're, we're interested in what that is. So yes, playing with our imaginations become something that we do from a very, very early age. And the only reason. The only real bucket that we have in our minds that helps us to see what is likely not likely to be a fantasy rather than an a reality is that category of things that we see as happening in the future,  Yucca: Hm. Mark: because we know we're not there yet. We know that we can't see the future. Right. Most of us know that we can't see the future. So, There are those imagined outcomes. And then we can plan for those or plan against them depending on what we're imagining.  Yucca: Although, I'm just going to say, when you're driving on the road, And you see something on the side of the road and you don't want to hit it. Don't keep focusing on it because you will drive into it.  Mark: yes.  Yucca: So focus on what he, where you want to go instead of where you don't. And with my experience, you can apply that to planning as well. Instead of trying to plan against something it's often much more effective to plan towards something. Mark: Yes. Yes. When I was first learning to drive the guy who was teaching me said, okay, now look where you want to go and go there.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: That was, it was very simple instruction and it taught me to steer.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Look where you want to go and go there.  Yucca: Yep.  Do not look at the pedestrian to not look at the pedestrian. Yes. Mark: Yeah. So we have this powerful imagination and it's so powerful that it can blur the distinction between what our real experiences are, which as we've said, can be heavily massaged and, and changed by our brains. Right.  Yucca: And just filling in that lack of lack of data. Mark: even, even that is somewhat questionable, which is why the scientific method is so powerful because it works to take that subjectivity out of our conclusions about what's real. And then we have the imagined experiences and those can be super vivid and wonderful. And that's why we, once again, like movies and, you know, reading and all that great kind of stuff. We can use this and we're going to talk about this later on. We can use this in our pig and practice in our ritual practice because a ritual can be informed by a story. Right. I'm going to do this and that symbolizes this and I'm going to do that. And it symbolizes that, and then this transformation will take place and it will lead to this result at the end. And either I will be changed or the world will be changed depending on what you believe. And. You can even create rituals that are built around mythological stories, right. I'm going to do the fool's journey I'm going to do per Stephanie's descent or, or a non as descent. Right. And I've, I've been to some rituals that are like that and they can be incredibly powerful. The problem that we get into is where I talked about how we can blur the imagined and the real. Yucca: Right. Mark: And that can lead to lots of problems. I mean, I believe that that's the fundamental issue with theism.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: It involves the, the blurring of reality with imagination in a way that draws erroneous conclusions. That's what I think.  Yucca: Yeah, well, and there's so many different directions to go with this, but one of the places where it can be really harmful as we start to create these narratives about groups, about my group and that group, and you know, everything there. You know, your escape group, scapegoat group where, you know, where you can start demonizing people just through the stories and imagination, you come up with whatever the group is, right? It's the other political party, or it's the, you know, whatever religion or the opposite of your particular food dogma group or that, you know, and you start to, to. Blur between, you know, what, what maybe is real. And what's kind of imagined and, and what may have some seeds of truth that have been been exaggerated. And, and and it's hard for us to know. To peel that back and try and distinguish between them, especially when we start wrapping our own identity and our stories about ourselves and our own worth and to all of that. Mark: right, exactly. So, and that brings us to the wonderful term confirmation bias. Because all of us have a prejudice in favor of our own stories. We, whether they're imaginary or whether they're based in some pretty solid factual information, we still, as we look out into the world, we will look for pieces of data that will reinforce what we already want to believe. And that is. Another piece of fee ism. I believe once you've decided that you're an atheist and you have this idea, you know, I'm a Christian, I'm a Muslim, I'm a, I'm a follower of Zeus. Then you, you start filtering your experience of the world in order to be consistent with what that tells you with what that. is supposed to look like. Right. And it's very tricky. It's subtle stuff because. So much of what happens with our sensorium happens underneath the surface. It's the processing that the mind does And, then shows you something on the screen. Yucca: Right. Mark: Very challenging.  Yucca: and we need to be really clear that this is, this is a human thing, right? This is something that we all do, and we can become more aware of. And be able to make choices about it, but it's, it's completely natural. This is just part of how we work, how we're wired. Mark: Right, right. This, this. What's this concretion of different evolved systems. That is our brain. You know, it wasn't engineered from the bottom up. It's a, it's a series of evolutionary steps that are all glommed onto one another. And this is part of the result is that, you know, we, we are really not very good at subjective. As a single individual person detecting what's likely to be true and what's likely not to be true. We teach ourselves critical thinking in order to try to do a better job of that. But the best system that we've found so far for determining what really is likely to be true is the scientific method with peer review and Ockham's razor Yucca: Yeah. Mark: and oh, go ahead.  Yucca: I was gonna say, I'm, you know, I'm not someone who thinks that we really should be dictating, you know, what peoples, what classes people should take. But you know, if I had one that I could say everybody has to take it would be logic, right? I think that it would make sense. It would help people so much. As long as the. You know, it was a good instructor and understood it just to be aware of the different kinds of fallacies there are. And how do you actually think through, and, and challenge your own beliefs and also how to argue, how to argue on a position that's not yours.  Mark: yeah. Yes. Well, that's why the, the first atheopagan principle is skepticism and critical thinking.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: It's, you know, you start from there that, that, that will help you to understand the world as Well, as a person can. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So we have this imagination. And we have this perceptual system, which gets monkeyed with, by the brain a lot and may not be telling you exactly the truth. And then what you base. Then you base a story on the experience that this brain process delivers you. So, so it's possible for things that are completely imagined to seem very, very real. Whether it's just that you're watching a movie and you're, you know, you're suspended, you're, you're completely submerged into the world of the film. Or it can be something like  Yucca: Your anxiety at two in the morning. Mark: Yes about terrible things that are likely to happen or a memory that I have of flying naked over the golden gate bridge. It was a perfect day. It was sunset. Beautiful. And for some reason, I had no clothes on and I was standing at the bus stop at the golden gate bridge and then rose into the air and flew over the towers, did kind of a back flip. The air was perfectly warm. It was so comfortable. It was a beautiful experience. And it was a lucid dream that I had. But I remember it as absolutely clearly as if it was a real experience. And I have no, there's no context within that. Memory, except for the fact that impossible things happened to tell me that I didn't really have that experience.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So we have this. And that leads me to some of the ways that the pagan community has developed in relation to imagination and fantasy starting really from Gerald Gardner, know, from the 1930s. Because Gardner posited a fantasy story. And the fantasy story was that the witchcraft that he was presenting in his books was part of an unbroken lineage of lore handed down from time and Memorial, at least from the middle ages. And this created a sort of conflation of paganism, middle ages, middle ages, paganism. And in the late 1960s, at least in the United States, what ended up happening was that Renaissance fairs got invented. And a lot of people that were performers and participants in Renaissance fairs were also pagans. And so this sort of aesthetic, and this idea of this golden old age began to arise.  Yucca: Right. And the, the John era of fantasy was really taking off as well.  Mark: we, we have to name, check Lord of the  Yucca: out. Yep. I'm a huge fan here,  Mark: Me too.  Yucca: named from it even, you know, but and, and other, you know, many, many other names and it, it really became. I think not just within the pagan community, but just in the, in the larger community, really a cultural force. Mark: Yes. Very much. So in certainly from an aesthetic standpoint, it took, it really took over in many ways, certainly in the eighties and nineties pigging, where was medieval flash Renaissance, where,  Yucca: yeah, Mark: you know, what, what people wore were, you know, flowing velvets and  Yucca: the long sleeves.  Mark: the, with the long, you know, bill like sleeves  Yucca: And the open V shirts with the little ties across them. And yeah,  Mark: Yeah, exactly. So, and,  Yucca: I adore all of this, you  Mark: well, I do  Yucca: yeah, this is not, don't take this as us being like, oh, this is all terrible. No, we're just talking about it though and saying, you know, where's this from? Yeah. Mark: And so this, this aesthetic of ye all the England D became something that  Yucca: don't mention all the other places, sorry. Mark: Right. Yeah, That's another topic that we could talk about, which is paganism outside of the sphere of England and English speaking countries. Right. Because of. You know, not, not everything is going to be practiced in a Wiccan kind of way.  Yucca: yeah.  Mark: but  Yucca: Anyways, that's another Mark: it's a, it's another topic. either that, or it's going to be the mother of all tangents and we're going to spend the rest of our time on it. So this, this, you know, jolly old England kind of. Idea, which has so much overlap with talking for example, except that talking mixed in habits and elves and dwarves and wizards and all that kind of stuff became very, very popular. And to my mind, unfortunately, what some of what that has done is it has turned, it has turned the imagination into what people want to make re. their paganism, they want to be wizards. They, they want to be elves. In some cases they and you know, aspiration towards a fantasy of something that's imaginary is inherently dissociated from the real world. And what are. Naturalistic paganism is about is the real world. You know, one. of the quibbles that I've always had with the sort of mainstream pagan community in the United States, at least where I'm familiar with it is that it's got this weird kind of dual loyalty. It's like we Revere the earth and then we have these gods  Yucca: Yes, but these higher beings, you know, higher than what you're talking about higher than the earth, you know, they're not. Mark: the gods come from the earth? No. Did the gods create the earth? Maybe? There are all kinds of different stories, which I believe are imagined stories, but the, the question of exactly where does the earth fit into all of that is a real one. I think I'm glad that people are saying that they Revere the earth, whatever that means to them. To me, the earth is central. There's nothing more central because we are it. We are the earth standing up on legs and talking to itself.  Yucca: Right.  Really? I mean, think about that for a moment. We are little pieces of earth that your whole body think about. Where's the carbon in your hands, the oxygen, the nitrogen. Where's all of that from, and where's it going back? Mark: Right. And it's not like there's some amazing border where it's like, you, you know, the carbon presents its passport and says, I'm going to be human. Now it's just carbon. It's just carbon, like any other carbon on earth, right. At least of that ice.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So. This is something that I think is, is problematic in the pagan community. And it's interesting because some different there've been a series of sort of aesthetic layers that have gone along with the pagan community. I saw the, the golf sort of BDSM aesthetic enter the community in the mid nineties. And it's kind of gotten folded into all. well,  Yucca: Yeah. The boundaries between them really blurred between, you know, what is, and even if you go to like a Ren fair that it's all there too,  Mark: right.  Yucca: Even within folks that, that are into that, that aren't pagan, you know, that there's a lot of mixing there. Mark: Yes. And yes, there's a lot of the, the dress-up is still. Reminiscent of some other age. Right. And so, you know, I, I think this is problematic because it pulls us away from earth. I love playing dress up and I'm, I'm happy to play dress up and I have done it in many, I mean, literally dozens of different kinds of ways, because we used to do all these theme parties and blah, blah, blah. And I was a performer at Renaissance fairs for many years as well, and Dickens fairs as well. So I don't have any problem with, you know, playing let's pretend the challenge, I think is when we lose track of the fact that we're playing, let's pretend.  Yucca: Right because there are, I think there are ways that we'll talk about this too, to do it in a way that it is inspiring. It speaks to us in this very you know, deep level, the Indian symbols. But what you're talking about is the, is the losing sight of is this really, really. This is what's really happening versus what are we imagining? And we can, I think that we can definitely w one of the purposes of imagination is that can work towards making that a reality. So we can, some of our imagined things can, can become reality, but there's also a difference between imagining things about other people and about. Past stories, you know, as much as we want. We could, we referenced sort of the rings. So as much as, as Gollum wants to believe that it was his birthday present it, he can believe that. And imagine that as long as he wants, it's not, that's not what happened.  Mark: Right.  Yucca: Right. And. With the old ways, as much as we want to imagine, and really want to believe that there's some unbroken path there. That's very unlikely that that's what happened. And you know, we probably aren't star children put here from aliens and,  Mark: Right.  Yucca: the TAF ELLs and all of that stuff. Mark: Right. And the w where was I going to go with this?  Yucca: The connection between what is real and what is not, and the earth being central. That's where you were at before. Mark: Well, yeah, this is a little different it's about suspension of disbelief. And one of the things that adults learn to do when their brains are developed enough is to try to make a differentiation between the imagined and the. Right. And some people think that's a tragedy, right. That they lose their childish sense of playfulness and imagination and everything can be just super magical. Right. I don't feel that way. I, I think that our brains develop in the way they do for a reason. And when we start having to imagine futures that we need to plan for being able to distinguish between the imaginary that we suspend our disbelief for and the real that we're working towards, even in the ineffectual way that we do because of the way our brains work. It's very important. Yucca: Right. Mark: That way we don't set a goal of becoming an elf,  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: right. Because that's not possible.  Yucca: Yeah.  Now we could think about what are the characteristics that, that embodies that we value and how can we work towards, you know, that sort of thing. But, but you're not actually going to be right.  Mark: right. Or You maybe maybe more, a better example is you're not going to be a wizard. Right. Because in the, in the fantasy sense, what a wizard is, is something that doesn't exist on planet earth. Now You can be buried in the aesthetics of wizardry. You can con you know, Yucca: can be an incredible scholar, right? They're often, you know, very learned individuals and. Mark: And you can make yourself look like a wizard and make all of your environs look like what you imagine a wizard's environs would look like, but you're still not going to snap your fingers and have flame appear, you know? And. To kid ourselves that those kinds of outcomes, the sort of Harry Potter magic, right. That that those outcomes are actually possible in some way is to become further away from engagement with the world. The actual world that we're in here and the kind of paganism that Yucca and I talk about here is really about immersion in this world. Getting to know it better and better, you know, becoming familiar with what our local ecosystems are and really being in love with it because there's so much there to love. Giving getting sidetracked on fantasies. It eats up bandwidth that could be applied to the love for the world. and. that I think is. Critique that I have of a lot of mainstream paganism in the United States is that, and maybe in England too, I don't know. But certainly, or, you know, in other English speaking countries, but certainly in north America Canada and Mexico in the us that's, that seems to be what I'm seeing.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So let's talk a second about. About using our imagination to create those story arcs where we begin as naturalist pagans is with a healthy suspension of disbelief. Right.  Yucca: And with a, with an awareness that that's what word.  Mark: Right,  Yucca: Right, because what you're talking about about the difference between what the children and adult brain and people talking about, oh, the, the what a, a shame it is. I think that some of what they might be talking about is the ability to let go the way kids can let go. Right. And I think that's something that we don't need to leave. Is being able to let go and go into that playful place, but we also have the ability to step back and be very critical and, and see the differences. But when we want to, we can suspend that belief  Mark: Right,  Yucca: disbelief, right? Mark: that's very well said. Because the. The playfulness that you're describing that that is something that our over culture really stomps on for adults. We've got all this conformity expectation around how we dress around how we behave. That's why I love flashmob. I love. I love, you know, people suddenly behave me behaving in really unexpected ways that are delightful and creative and artistic. They're just super fun. Ritual is a way for adults to play well or children to children can be involved in rituals, but but adults, unless it's some formal sport or game. They don't get permission much to just go and play, you know, you take the afternoon off, go and play.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And and rituals enable us to do that around fee Matic storylines, you know, whether it's. Whether it's something from, from a myth, whether it's a story that, or, or simply a story of, I am powerful. Now I am, I am, I am filled with my power. I have created a space where magic can occur and I'm going to go and do this thing. And it's going to help me to be much more effective at X, whatever X.  Yucca: Yeah, well, and even our our, our stories and narratives of the season. Right. That that is a story as well. And we understand it in with the narrative structure. Mark: Yes, it's true because the reality is every year.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Yeah. every year is different. The weather on any given day is not the same as it was last year. Weather is a chaotic system and it's never going to be predictable. And all we can talk about is broad stroke generalizations about what is likely to happen in the month of February, as opposed to the month of August. And we understand some of the drivers of that in terms of the axial tilt and. Climate change and all of those things, but that doesn't make it predictable. So we have a story, a narrative about it instead that kind of guides us through well it's may, so we should be doing this. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: And that's, again, as we were talking about in the beginning, that's just sort of how our, our, our minds are built is to understand things as story as, as a narrative. And then the imagination piece is, well, we get to build that story.  Mark: Right.  Yucca: So in our ritual, we're building those stories and, and it's very convenient in ritual that we do have the blur between what our, what our minds understand as true and not. Mark: Right Because we can invoke an imagined scenario and effect real profound change in ourselves as people. I  Yucca: believe it. And it's okay that we know that we made it up and we're believing it, but then it really makes that change. Mark: I did a ritual at Penn FIA con God, it's gotta be eight years ago now, something like that. And it was, it was specifically in atheopagan ritual that happened after a presentation about atheopagan ism and. What the whole point of this, we, you know, we invoked a circle and we we called qualities that we wanted to be with us of openness and a willingness to change and kindness and compassion. And the, the whole working of the root of the ritual was simply, I had a little. Vial of oil. And I went from person to person anointing their forehead. But what I told them before I did that was now, what I want you to do is to call up that most cringe-worthy a shame, shame, filling moment of your life. You know what it is. We all know  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: right? You, you don't have to say anything about it, but we know what it is. The thing that you really wish you had never done. Right. And hold that forward in your mind. And so all I did was I went from person to person and said, it's forgotten it's over. It's gone  With each person. And people cried  Yucca: right. Yeah.  Mark: story that they had been telling themselves about the bad thing that they done, or the embarrassing thing that they'd done or whatever it was, the story had a new ending, right? The story was given a new ending that absolves them of the feelings of shame or embarrassment or whatever it was. And I mean, I, I didn't realize it was going to be as powerful as it was. But I wanted, I wanted to do something that was very personal work to really illustrate the power of doing ritual like that without invoking God's, without believing in magic. right. And. That's the kind of thing that we can do with rituals and story narratives. People, people are filled with stories. They're filled with stories about themselves and about the world and about humanity and about their families and all that kind of stuff. And we can change those stories in ways that empower people and help them to be happier and help them to be kinder in the world. That's what I'm in this for. Yucca: Yeah  Mark: and so imagination becomes, you know, the primary tool, the, the cloth that you lay down before setting out anything for a focus or an alter imagination is the foundation.  Yucca: I like that even rhymes. Yeah. And again, just to really, really be very clear on this, neither of us are being down on the fantasy genre or B we're both huge fans and bring a D and D nerds and all of that stuff. But we're, we're talking about the, the ways that, you know, what's the purpose of each and where the. Where we can use imagination in a really constructive way and where it's maybe more harmful, right? Mark: Right or just where we may be stuck.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And you know, people do get stuck. That's in cultures get stuck. I think it's a lot easier for a culture that's based in a holy text to get stuck than it is for kind of a fluid subculture, like a pagan. Is to get stuck. But there's nothing shameful about that, except that if you become aware of it, then you can start to evolve again.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And I think that, you know, moving away from the good old days, a lineage of ancient ways. Kind of model and, and sort of Renaissance see sort of aesthetic of paganism. We'll do a couple of things that would be good for the pagan community. One of them is that I think it would make it less of a challenge to bridge the gap to other people that are not pagans because it won't seem quite so fantasied. Right. It, it won't seem. Quite so, frivolous in that way.  Yucca: Well, and, and also more welcoming to the people who don't particularly connect with that aesthetic,  Mark: right, right?  Yucca: Where the, the ideas are interesting, but the aesthetic is is just difficult to get past, right. Mark: For sure. So that's a good thing. And then the other way that I think that it can really benefit the pagan community is that it, it enables it, it would create kind of a vacuum that would enable new stuff to arise. There, and, and I think that some of this is happening because you know, the, the sixties and seventies, generation of pagans is leaving us. Most of, most of them came to it in adulthood. And so by now they're, they're getting elderly. And there there's enough conversation and enough pagan thought happening now that I think that people are starting to reconsider some of those. Good old days, unbroken lineage kind of models. Certainly with Ronald Hutton's book, the triumph of the moon, he pretty well-documented that modern paganism was a modern creation. I think it would be a wonderful thing for modern paganism to stand up and say, yes, we're a modern creation. were informed by modern values, which means we don't have. Holy book that's full of slavery and abuse and misogyny. We, we stand for, for the good stuff that humans have learned about how the dignity of the individual and the ecosystem. And we think that those are value and that good enough,  Yucca: Yeah. And we don't need some, some distant past authority to make it valid. Right. Mark: As as Tim mentioned said I don't believe that just because I ideas are tenacious that they're worthy.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So going back to talking about rituals again one thing that can be helpful when you're planning a ritual is to write out the story. Right. you know, or, or at least speak it out loud, we're going to do this and this and this and this and this, and the result is going to be that. Because what that does is it creates expectation in people's minds. In your own mind if you're working alone or in the group's mind. Oh, okay. Well that's, what's going to happen. And then it's going to result in that cool, magical new thing. That's going to transform us. Great. Sign me up. I'm I'm I'm here  Yucca: can follow that path and follow that. And there you go.  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: Yeah. So I think this is a, I mean, like so many things that we talk about on this podcast, it, it takes a little bit of awareness, but takes some reflection and just paying attention to. How things work, how you work, how you respond and, and going from there, going, okay, well, how do I get, how do I make this work for me? What's the story that I want. What's the story that I want to live. What's the story that I can tell and imagination is that's what connects the pieces. Mark: Yes. Yes. So I think, I don't know. I could go on and on, but I think, I think we should stop here.  Yucca: I think this is a wonderful  Mark: I think it's a good place to stop.  Yucca: assist the app and to just invite some dreams for the future. Right.  Mark: Right. And this is, as you say, a great time of year to be doing that you know, as, as spring either, you know, is happening with the light, but not with the weather or or maybe it is happening starting to happen as it is where I live. Then you know, imagine a little, imagine. Who do I want to be? What's, what's my highest vision for myself.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: some of that can be circumstantial. Like, you know, what kind of work I want to be doing, or, you know, whatever that is. But some of it is, well, what kind of person do I want to be?  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: You know? Am I impatient? Well, can I work on that? Am I irritable? Can I work on that? Yucca: And that's ultimately the stuff that you really do have control over. Right? The, what. You know what job you have or what kind of world you want to live in. Those are all wonderful things, but ultimately you don't actually have control over that. Right. But you do have control over what kind of person you're going to be and how you're going to respond when certain types of things happen. Mark: Right. Not to say that activism isn't important  Yucca: Right. Exactly. You can definitely.  Mark: You can definitely. advocate and work to bring about improvements to the world that we live in. And it's essential. That is many of us as possible. Do that. So not, not to say that your highest vision of yourself should Trump your vision for the world. But.  Yucca: But you aren't a personal failure. If you aren't the chosen one from the stories that saves the world from global warming and on all of that, you can, you can be part of that solution, but don't, but don't beat yourself up that like, That are that real life doesn't work the same way. Fantasy novelists work. Yeah.  Mark: Yeah. I mean, one of the things, one of the most pernicious things, I think about the children's stories that we tell people is, and they lived happily ever after. I mean, that's a terrible thing to tell people, because the expectation then is okay, you get married and then you lived happily ever after until you have a knock-down, drag-out fight over something super trivial that neither one of you is willing to get off of until a day later, when you finally got all the quarters all out of your system, and you're ready to start actually having a conversation. This is the way the world really works.  Yucca: Yes. Oh, on the poor. Yeah. And when, and when you've been raised on those stories and think that that's how it works, then you suddenly, is this not true? Love  Mark: Right.  Yucca: This is not meant to be. Relationships take work anyways. Now we're going on a tangent.  Mark: we are. Yes.  Yucca: That's a, well, maybe that'll be something to talk about as we get closer to Valentines. Mark: Yeah, That's a good idea of, although we actually have. Next week we have Sarah Lindsay coming. We're going to do an interview with the YouTuber known as the, the skeptical, which and if you haven't seen her channel, I really encourage you to take a look at some of her stuff. She's a PhD candidate in religious studies, and she's very, very interesting to talk with and listen to. So we're going to be doing that interview Next week. I am too. It's going to be great. So. In the meantime, we hope you all have a wonderful week, enjoy the season and be sure to contact us at the email address. We always tell you thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. If you have comments or suggested topics or any of that. Thanks So much, everybody.  Yucca: Thanks everyone. 

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E4 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Mark: Welcome back to the wonder: science-based paganism. I'm your host mark. And today we're going to talk about a subject that we have already done. One episode about. But it was nearly two years ago, Right. after the start of the Corona virus pandemic. And I listened to it today and it just seemed really stale and that topic is about community building. And so particularly we want to talk about community building today and also doing that in the context of the pandemic. How can we build an experience community when we're having these concerns?  Yucca: Right. I mean, it really seems like we're in a different, a different era than we were when we did that first that first pass at this topic. And I think we were very hopeful about how quickly things were going to resolve themselves. I don't, I certainly didn't. I didn't expect that we would still be where we are right now. Two years later. Mark: Well, at one point in that podcast, I, I remember hearing myself say when I listened to it this morning well, when we get a vaccine and everything goes back to normal, then blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, we have a vaccine, but things have not gone back to normal. And there's, there's still a lot of concern and a lot of, a lot of loss happening around this pandemic. So,  Yucca: for the vaccine and, you know, fully support, you know, go ahead, get that, you know, if it's something that you, you are able to, and that's really, really important, that's part of this solution. But as we're seeing that, unfortunately it's not quite as simple as we were hoping it would be.  Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Those viruses, they mutate so quickly. And of course there's all the whole socio political stuff around getting vaccinated or not really complicated things, but from our standpoint, you know, we're very much a yay science  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: here. And so we really encourage you to get the jabs.  Yucca: Yeah. And I just want to remind folks that there, there are still populations that cannot, I have a child who cannot get the vaccine yet. It's not available to him. And so, you know, for us as a family, It's you know, every, I think that everybody's still being careful, but we have to be super careful. And, and, you know, if you see that, you know, we're very masked up and super social distancing it's because we have a very vulnerable member. We know we don't want him getting it sick and we don't want him passing it on to his elderly grandparents and all of that. So anyways, this is probably very familiar territory to everyone. So this is the context that we're talking about. Can we hit it again? Right? This is our context today. Mark: Yes. Yes, exactly. So, so the first thing really to do when you're talking about anything is to define your terms. Right. As an aside that I just had a, ridiculous Twitter exchange with a fist at a Christian who was certain that he was going to prove to me that his God existed, but he was unwilling to define what it meant which is a little problematic when, when you're talking about logical proof.  Yucca: Right. So defining let's start. Yeah. What are we talking about? Mark: I think we're talking about a variety of different social situations. Community can be a small group of five or six people. It can be a large population of people who all share something in common and feel a sense of shared values and interests. And in the pagan community, we tend to. We tend to have sort of concentric rings of community. Right. Many people belong to covens or circles that are relatively small working groups that they do a lot of their rituals with. But then they're also part of a local community, which. May hold pagan, pride events or public rituals or something like that. And then they may see themselves as part of a national movement that has conferences and festivals that you go to. And, and then part of an international community as Well,  Yucca: Well, and, and to jump back down, actually on that local level, they might be part of a community, which is maybe an interfaith where it's this kind of various, you know, non dominant religions that are, you know, there's kind of the right, like vaguely new age people. And the pagans kind of have a a community going on in their, in their area. Mark: right. The the we're not the big three folks.  Yucca: Yeah, Mark: Who it's interesting, at least where I live in this, maybe because the, where I live in this kind of blue bubble in Northern California, but in the interfaith circles that I go to, I find that. Pagans and sort of alternative folks are, are disproportionately present. There's more of them than there are proportionally in the overall population. Whereas the interfaith groups may only have a couple of attendees that are Christian, for example even though they're Christians everywhere,  Yucca: Sure. How was it with the Quakers?  Different, there's like two very different branches of what Quakers could be, but do you tend to have the kind of more, I dunno what to call it? Prim and proper that the Quakers, Mark: yeah. the more kind of peace and activism oriented Quakers who are, tend to be sort of less deterministic about theisim you know, for them, it's much more of a practice and, you know, listening for that voice from within themselves. And maybe some of them consider that to be a voice of spirit or of God or something like that. But others don't  Yucca: Yeah, that's the certs that we've got mostly in my area and they tend to be the ones that will show up and be at many of the space in some many of the spaces that are shared with pagan folks.  Mark: Right.  Yucca: It's very interesting. We also have quite a few sufis as well, but kind of in that area. you. Mark: Yeah, the last interfaith thing that I did, it was, I don't know, probably 15 people in there were two Quakers in two sufis. And the sufis were the only Muslims represented. There weren't any other more sort of mosque going muslims. And of course, none of the evangelicals are there because why would you. spend time with people who are wrong?  Yucca: Oh, there's then to convert them.  Mark: right, right. So community. is something that we as humans need we're social animals, and it feeds us to interact with others. Even those of us that are really introverted, still can get something out of engaging with others that we see as being like us, and that we have an affinity for.  Yucca: Well, there's that emotional need of the sense of belonging, which I think is really, really important in the community. Right. And I think that's very important for our, our mental health. Even those of us who are introverts. Right. Mark: Yeah. that the feeling of belonging is something that comes up a lot in pagan circles in my experience. And particularly in non-ferrous pagan circles, because people say, oh, I thought I was alone. I thought I was the only one that, you know, that thought this way. And now there's this community of people that I can belong to. Right. Without having to sort of hide what I really believe. Any of that kind of stuff. And I know that for a lot of people who are sort of social socially misfit, socially disconnected people who are just different and they they're, they're not interested in kind of gliding along the path. That's been carved out for everybody in our society. Many of those are really gravitated towards paganism. Many of them are, are neuro atypical or. Too bright or you know, or have other sort of social impediments? Um, Yes. So, so let's talk a little bit about different ways of being in community and we're, we're going to talk some a bit later on, we're going to talk some about recruiting community, finding people to be connected with some techniques that we can use. Some strategies that we have for finding ways. To find people to connect to because it's particularly hard right now with the pandemic. So the next thing to talk about after understanding what community is and why we want it. And that can be I should also say that can also be very functional. You know, if you want to do, if you want to have a book club, for example, you probably don't want a book club of 75 people. You, you know, there, depending on what the interest of the area of shared interest is, there are different sizes of community that you can look at having, but let's talk about how to approach. A new community or, you know, coming to enter an area where you might be able to recruit people who reflect your own interests and share passions that you have. So you can build community with them.  Yucca: Yeah. Well, I think one of the first things to do is to listen, And  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: that's listening on many levels, listening to yourself, but also listen. And paying attention to the other people, to the, to the cultural expectations with the sub cultural expectations that you're stepping into. And not just sometimes when we get excited, we can just do all the talking and kind of run over someone else and just taking a moment to, you know, consider are you talking? Okay. So. With the animals that we have in our homes, sometimes like dogs are, have really different personalities and cats just like on a species level. The individuals have different personalities too, but the way that you're going to be friend to cat, and the way you're going to be friend to dog is different and you need to stop and listen and figure out, you know, is this a dog or a cat that you're dealing with or something else? Mark: Right. Yeah, that totally makes sense. And not only listening, but being genuinely curious about other people that's, that's really important because a lot of the social glue that builds communities is just a general sense of am I seeing, am I appreciated? Does this person like me, and one way that you can show that a person likes you is by being genuinely curious about who they are and what they're into. So that's a really important piece as well. I think, you know, if you, if you enter a new space and right now we might be talking about county scale pagan disc, or a discord chat or or a zoom call, right? Not something in person, very likely because of how things are. It's a pandemic right now. You know, really kind of going in there and, you know, not only saying, you know, here's who I am and here's what I'm into, but also asking other people what they're into and who they are is a great way to start building that sense of community around yourself. And who knows, maybe your idea of doing a book club is something that a bunch of other people are really going to get excited about.  Yucca: Right or there's something. Wow. That idea that they had, he didn't even know how much you wanted that idea until you heard them say it. Mark: Right. Somebody wants to do moon rituals, every full moon. Oh boy. I've always wanted to do full moon rituals, but I can never make myself do them. Right. I just, I don't ever really get around it, but if it's in my calendar to get together with this group, And I've got some accountability with them because they're expecting me to show up. Then I can start doing this practice that I really have been wanting to get into. Right. So that's exciting both for you and for them that's, it's a win-win.  Yucca: Right. Mark: So, a subset of this is talking about being non theist pagans in the broader pagan community. Right. And we've, we've talked about this before. There can be some friction there, there are people who are very defensive about the reality of their gods and. They're very threatened by the suggestion that there may be someone in their circle who doesn't believe that their gods are real. This is a little bit of a tight rope to walk, but it's important to both not be in the closet and not be a jerk about it.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So you can just say, you know, You know, cosmologically feel logically. This is where I am. I'm a science-based science seeking pagan or witch. And. And I'm a non fist. But you don't need to get into an argument with somebody about whether their gods exist or not. Look for commonalities. I mean, if somebody starts to get bent out of shape about that, you can immediately go to, for me, the earth is sacred and this ritual is about the sacred earth. I mean, You're invoking Gaia, Right. The, the world. We share that in common and we can do this in common.  Yucca: All right. And, and also be walking that line, be tactful too, about when you. When you state what you believe, you know, maybe not in the middle of, you know, you, you wouldn't come out to your parents at like your sister's wedding kind of thing right. In the middle of when it's not about you. Right. It's about her. It's about that. Like, you know, so in the middle of a ritual, if you know, that's what they're into, like, you don't need to be like, no, you're wrong or, or something like that, just, you know, kind of, you know, read the. And, you know, like mark, you were saying, you don't need to hide, but, but just be aware of what's what's going on. And, and when, when it's important for you to state it, when it isn't, you know, it goes back to that old using pick your battles, like where are you going to be putting your energy right now?  Mark: Right, right. And an important consideration as a part of that is the principle that I call your house, your rules. If somebody else is organizing a ritual, I am not going to give them a hard time about having God. It's their ritual, their rules. If I want to participate, then I'm going to have to, you know, go through that process. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: I mean, even if it means that I'm just kind of standing quietly while they're, you know, invoking their deities and I'm, you know, just kind of waiting for that part to be over. I'm not going to be interrupted and I'm not going to be argumentative. And you know, that's just not right. But if you're the organizer of the ritual, you don't have to put gods in, in order to accommodate somebody else, you know? So your house, your rules,  Yucca: right? Yeah. That's that's great.  Mark: the most important, oh, go ahead.  Yucca: oh, well, This was going to take us in another direction code, so please continue. And then I'll then I'll take us off in another direction.  Mark: Okay, that sounds good. The important thing to keep in mind, and this is something that most people will respond to in a positive way. Most people will stand down their defensiveness. If you go to this principle, which is that everybody has the right to their own spiritual path, right. Everybody is an individual. Everybody develops in their own way. Certain things appeal to people that, I mean, there's a lot of people out there that really want to be told what to do, what to believe. What to value that whole authoritarian model really works for them. And they're not going to be pagans there. They're going to be Christians or they're going to be Muslims or you know, something else. And they're entitled to. They have a right to it. That's the spiritual path that they choose. So if you get into one of these sort of friction moments, I think it's really important to go back to that. This is my spiritual path and I have a right. to it And you have a right to yours and they don't have to agree. Yucca: right. And what I was actually going to say is you also can set your boundaries about the types of interactions you want to be involved in, and you completely have the right to do that. And to be able to say that, you know, I don't want to be treated in certain ways and I'm not going to engage if I'm going to be treated that way. Right. So you can do that.  Mark: right.  Yucca: and when forming, when entering, when looking for a community or being in a community that's growing your needs and boundaries, you know, those are really important. You don't need to make other people have the same boundaries as yours, but you can set those rules for yourself. Mark: Right. Yeah. And there are communities out there. That aren't a fit for you. You know, there, there are times when, you know, there may be particular personalities that are really dominant in a given community and they just are you, you and they, excuse me, you and they are like oil. You just don't mix. And if they're already well-established in that community and you're coming in from the outside, you're probably going to bounce off and go and look somewhere else. And that's okay. It can be sad that there isn't that openness to diversity, but we don't get to control what other people do only are.  Yucca: There's certainly for me been some groups, especially online groups. You know, there's just an accepted communication style, which is just too kinda too rough for what I'm comfortable with. Right. Where, you know, people are more okay with doing jabs and kind of putting words in other people's mouths. And while there's certain value and things that I love in it, I'm going, you know, I just, I, I just don't have the bandwidth for that.  So. That's cool. Do you all, do you, but I'm going to go over here and I'm going to, I'm going to have stress, stress myself out and I want community, but I'm going to find a little bit of a gentler community, you know, and that's fine. Mark: Right. Yeah. And being in a community is something where you can, I mean, you can even do it on a pad of paper. You know, it is very much a costs, benefits kind of consideration when you're in. And, you know, I've found myself in communities before where I finally realized this is damaging me more than it's benefiting me. I got it. Other communities where it's like, wow, this feeds me overwhelmingly. And it's got some things about it that I don't really like, but I can shine those on because this is so good for me and overall So, positive. And it's important for you to be aware of that. As you participate in a community or as you approach a new community, just really to be aware of how are my needs getting met here? How is this working for me? And it's okay to ask those questions. You don't have to just sort of suffer along because everybody else is suffering a lot.  Yucca: Yeah. And if they don't interpret themselves to suffering, that's fine. Right. They might not be, it might be fine for them or maybe they are, and that's their choice. Right.  Mark: Right.  Yucca: you can take care of your, you gotta take care of yourself. And then most of these cases everybody's going to be an adult. Right. So they can just go ahead and make those choices. Mark: Right. And if they're not going to be an adult, you don't want to be there anyway,  Yucca: Yes. Mark: because you know, life is too short to not deal with grownups who aren't grownups.  Yucca: Oh yeah. Mark: It's, it's hard. And you know, obviously we're all working to be. As adult as we can, as conscientious and as wise as we can. And we are where we are. But, you know, if, if you have, I mean, one thing that happens in religious communities a lot, and it does happen in pagan communities a lot is that you get these charismatic sort of dominant personalities and. They get the bid in their teeth and start expecting that everybody's going to kiss their ring and it gets really toxic and it is perfectly okay for you to recognize that that's poison to you and you're not going to play that game. That is perfectly okay. Yucca: right. Mark: So let's talk a little bit about how you might go. people that might form a community around you. right. Obviously you're looking for people who are, have shared interest with you. So if you're really interested in Toronto, for example, you use you meditate on tarot cards as a way of tapping your unconscious and you know, accessing your intuition. And you want to, you want to talk about that with other people? That's, that's a great opportunity. It's something you could put out on meetup. It's something you could announce in a, in a Reddit group, Reddit, subreddit. And see I mean, especially now during the pandemic, there's, there's less geographical challenge than there used to be. Just to be the meetings were like, well, you have to happening by video conferencing. We have a much better opportunity to engage with people who are all over the world.  Yucca: Right. Yeah. And it's, it's just normalized, right? Like everybody knows how to get on zoom or whatever platform it is. And, and, you know, some people are tired of it because they're working on it or going to school on it or doing all those things. But, but it's not as awkward as it was a few years ago. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. It's, I mean, Everybody from little kids to grandparents there, they're all doing zoom now. It's big. It's become sort of a secondary a second nature communication channel for us.  Yucca: Right. We've changed. The verb used to be, oh, Skype with them. Now you zoom  Mark: that's right. That's right?  Yucca: It's her, Skype's not happy about that  piece to be the verb. Yeah, Mark: but they didn't update their product in a appropriate way in there. They've got a crappy product now, so  Yucca: yeah, Mark: just not nearly as good as zoom is.  Yucca: So anyways, let's, we're talking about finding shared interest, right?  Mark: right,  Yucca: then, he might find interest within, you know, people who share more than one interest to. Mark: Right. You know, if you find yourself in a couple of different venues, maybe online and the same person is in both of those and you really like what they have say, maybe that's somebody that you would reach out to. If you're interested in forming a little circle and saying, Hey, you know, I I'd like to do rituals once a month. What do you, you know, would you be interested in helping to put together an online ritual circle with me, Or if they're in your local geographical area, you could say, well, maybe we could do this online for now during the pandemic, but eventually we would look to getting together in person. Yucca: yeah. depending on your comfort level, there might be, you might be able to do some in-person, but distanced, you know, if it's a, if you're interested in outdoors type things, did he go hiking or,  Mark: Right,  Yucca: know, things like that.  Mark: right. Yeah.  Yucca: you can feel pretty, pretty safe that, you know, you're 10 feet away from each other in the outdoors. You're probably. Okay.  Mark: yes. Yes. And that's good for you in all kinds of ways. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Yeah, but that's, I mean, it's good for you because it's exercise and it's good for you cause it's getting out into nature and it's good for you cause it's building community. So all of those things are great. One of the things about building a group of any kind is that you need to have some agreement.  Yucca: Yes. Mark: And groups can get in trouble by assuming that there's a tacit agreement to how we're going to behave with one another and not explicitly articulating what those agreements are, because then if somebody violates them later and is abusive or harassing or something like that, there's nothing to point to, to say this isn't okay here.  Yucca: Yeah. Well, and even if they're not being abusive or harassing where you just have the conflict that, you know, one person was saying LOD, I didn't think this was okay. And the other person was going, what do you mean? Why isn't this? Okay. We never said anything about it. Why is that a problem?  Mark: right,  Yucca: Or that you wouldn't think that, you know, I was in a pagan kind of group for a long time that it was the one person had the assumption that we shouldn't publicly disagree with each other. And I would publicly disagree with them and had no idea that I was like, seriously, offending this person. By disagreeing with them because, you know, I thought I was doing it polite fully with gentle language and I feels and all of that, but they were just like horrified by it. Didn't tell me for a long time that that was a problem. Right. And I had no idea. I'm like, wow.  Mark: Wow.  Yucca: never my intention to hurt you, but Okay.  Mark: wow. That's that's kind of a big one to keep to yourself. I Well just, well,  Yucca: Yeah, well, but, but there are some, we were coming from just very different backgrounds in terms of, you know, they, I was, I come from a background. I come from the sciences where disagreeing with somebody is not a bad thing. You're just trying to work towards the truth.  Mark: Right.  Yucca: chosen. They were from that whole like arts, humanities feelings. Those are all great things, but there's just a different culture around that. Yeah.  Mark: Yeah, for sure. That's actually something that gets science-based pagans kind of sideways of many other pagans, because our orientation is, you know, what's true matters and we want to interrogate claims, Right. So, you know, if you claim that you have psychic powers, well, why do you claim that? And where's the evidence and you know, what are, what are the odds that that's just a coincidence, as opposed to, you know, some sort of actual psychic thing, that's our orientation. And for other people, it can be highly offensive,  Yucca: Right. And then, and it can be taken. Yeah. Well, I know that, I mean, the situation that I'm referring to and I'm kind of being vague about it to be respectful of people's privacy, but I learned later that me challenging the ideas felt to them. Like I was challenging them as a person in their validity when I was just. Disagreeing with things that I thought were factually incorrect, like claims and statements.  Mark: Right.  Yucca: Right. But for them it was like, no, this is part of my identity. This is part of me. And you're saying this publicly,  Mark: I think it's very, I think it's very challenging, especially given the way that we're encouraged to internalize our worldview by the over culture. I think it's very, very challenging for people to separate their identity from what they believe. To be true. And that's a core aspect of scientific training. It's, it's an absolutely necessary piece of scientific training and many scientists don't actually do it when it comes to their religious beliefs.  Yucca: Yeah, Mark: They do it in their area of  Yucca: we're good at  Mark: their, their area of research. right? Yeah. So, but when it comes to, you know, religious beliefs, you know, cosmology about. You know, heaven and hell or all that kind of stuff. Then they may very well subscribed to all that stuff, without asking any questions about it, any of the natural questions that would arise. So that is really tricky and it's something that we need to be sensitive to, but it's also something that shouldn't shut off conversation.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I. I feel wounded that you have questioned. My cosmology is not a valid statement. You know, I'm sorry you feel wounded. I have not meant to attack you at all. You're a perfectly respectable person. I just disagree with this idea you have, and I don't see why you have it.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So going back to agreements and conduct standards it is helpful. I mean every, every mediation negotiation I've ever been through, you know, it starts with the agreements about how we're going to behave and how we're going to deal with conflict. And it is worthwhile to spend a little time on that, because if you can get agreements about that stuff upfront, it will smooth the way for your group's history. Tremendously.  Yucca: Oh, yeah. At whatever your group is. We're talking about pagan communities, but my partner's a professional DM online and puts out before doing the group an agreement of expectations and people get to like comment on it and all agree. And those games run so much smoother the other ones where you know, that we've been in the past where people. Kind of, you know, fight and don't know, and don't like, everybody has different expectations. So just having the conversation in the beginning is so, so key. Mark: Yeah. And it's another one of those adulting things, Right. I mean, it can be a little uncomfortable to raise the issue that we may have conflict to raise the issue that somebody may feel that someone else has treated them in a, in an inappropriate way, but not talking about it. Doesn't prevent it from happening. Yucca: Right. Mark: It's just like, Def talking about Def doesn't make it any more likely to happen to you suddenly.  Yucca: And it doesn't make you a bad community that you have conflict. It doesn't make you same thing with partnerships. Right? If you fight, if you're having a fight with your partner, like that's just being human, right. How you then handle it. That's different. Right. But some people go, oh, you know, we don't have to talk about how we'll do conflict resolution because we're never going to have it. We're so similar where this like, no that's humans, we disagree. We accidentally hurt each other. Sometimes we purposefully hurt each other and we need to address that within ourselves when we do. Mark: Sometimes we get mad and we say things that we really wish we hadn't said, and we do things that we really wish we hadn't done. And there needs to be a way to address that and repair it. And having those agreements makes a big difference in, in being able to get to a good place. Again.  Yucca: Yeah. And there's going to be different levels, right? We're not saying that like, every single friendship needs to have like a, like a huge book of written down, commandments with the amendments and all of that. But, it's going to depend on the scale and the frequency, but that there should be some agreed upon that you, that you're working from the same page. And sometimes an actual written agreement might be really helping. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, that's actually true in relationships too, that, you know, written agreements around how we're going to do conflict, you know, how we're going to do decision-making, you know, it's like, no, I'm, it's not okay with me. If you run out and spend $5,000 on something that we didn't even talk about. not. Okay. So, you know, what are those thresholds? What, you know, what, what do we need to both talk about? Right.  Yucca: Where our boundaries for privacy, right? What, because that's going to be different for different people. Mark: Yes, it is. So it sounds sort of technocratic And You know, rule-bound and all That kind of stuff, but honestly, these kinds of agreements help facilitate better communication, better relationships. And you can actually get closer because there's more safety Yucca: And respect, right. That respect is, is part of that safety. Mark: Right. Yeah. So I wanted to tell our listeners about an initiative that's happening in the atheopagan community right now. Cause I know that a lot of our listeners are, are in that community. That I'm very excited about. I announced it in the Facebook group yesterday. We are currently in the middle of finalizing. Conduct standards and and agreements for dealing with conflict and anti harassment policies and anti-discrimination policies, all that kind of stuff. And we're doing all of that. This is for atheopagan context. And that would include the Facebook group and the discord server and all that kind of stuff. But more to the point, we're now looking at.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: we're going to roll out a program called affinity groups. And What that means is that people can form their own little atheopagan groups. They don't have to be little, I mean, it could be 75 people or something. Around a topic of interest or a geographical area, or, you know, whatever is the common thread that binds those people together. And then those groups can meet on their own on whatever platforms they find useful, whether it's Facebook or discord or Mastodon or whatever it is.  Yucca: One? I have not heard of  Mark: I just heard about this. Mastodon is a open source, highly private Twitter, like thing. It's a microblogging context. I haven't actually seen it, but apparently it's like, there's no, there's no data capture. And so for people that are really, really focused on online privacy, it's something that's desirable.  Yucca: Hmm.  Like the animal that is named for,  Mark: yeah, me  Yucca: anyways  sorry to derail you there. Let's let's keep going. Mark: that's okay. So I expect we're, we're about to open the the conduct standards to to, for community comment. In, in the atheopagan Facebook group and discord server, that will happen tomorrow because I'll be getting the last of the comments from the atheopagan council by tonight  Yucca: So that actually means tomorrow will be. The first day that people will be listening can be listening to the podcast because this is Sunday night that we're recording. And so the podcast usually goes live Monday morning, but sometimes, sometimes life has other plans you know, sick kids or cars or whatever. And it will come out a little bit later, but we shoot for Monday morning when we can.  Mark: Right,  Yucca: So that will, that should be by, by the time you're listening to that, that should be there. Mark: That should be available. And so we invite you to take a look at all that stuff and comment on it. You know, if there's something that's missing, please let us know if there's some, you know, form of language that just doesn't sit Right. with you. That's fine. This is important because these new atheopagan affinity groups will not be moderated by anybody. Other than themselves. They're they're self-managed right. They're your groups you can do with them, what you want. But what we do ask is that you sign a charter that says, you know, we're, atheopagan, we believe in a naturalistic world and these four pillars and 13 principles, and our group has this purpose. It's a thing you can print. And I don't know, put on your wall or whatever the charter for your, for your new group. But it also includes the conduct standards and stuff, so that if there is a problem if someone comes into the group and, you know, starts private messaging, somebody. Sexually explicit pictures or something. You have a document you can point back at it and say, this is totally not okay. And you, you know, you know that it's totally not. Okay. Cause we have it here in writing.  Yucca: Yeah, and this is a great, you know, it's open every, everybody knows that that's not a secret. What the expectations are here. It is. We all have access to it.  Yeah.  Mark: So I am really excited about this affinity groups idea. I think it's the next, the next step for our community is for people to start to have a control over forming their own communities of interest. You know, the, the atheopagan Facebook group is about to hit 4,000 people. It's large  Yucca: Yeah, it's definitely. And things happen fast too. It's like, ah, you  Mark: They do. Yes. They happen really fast, which for the moderators is a challenge. And  Yucca: for the, the affinity groups. Especially yeah, later lots of different areas, but you know that that's another form. There's going to be a little bit more intimate form of community. Mark: Right. The idea there is you get to know one another, you know, let's say you've got a group of like nine people or something. You get to know one another and you form friendships and those friendships can deepen. If your affinity group is focused in a particular area, like, you know, atheopagan of New Jersey, When the pandemic eases or there's a really reliable medication for it so that people don't get definitely ill. Then you can meet in person and see where that takes you. So I am super excited about this. I think it's, it's definitely a step whose time has come and You know, a lot of what we're about is building community around these ideas and these beliefs since. So, this is, this is an important moment for that. I think.  Yucca: Yeah. Well, I'm glad that we came back to this topic and we probably will come back to it again, because this is, this is just a really important thing about being human and being pagan and just in the world. Mark: It is, it is I should put in one more plug for the century retreat in Colorado happening in Colorado Springs on May 13th through 16th. That is an in-person gathering of non-ferrous pagans. The programming is now available. You can download the PDF with all the workshops And activities and all that kind of stuff. At atheopagan and some.org. Yucca: And we will be doing a live podcast from, from the retreat. Mark: we will wifi permitting. We, we will, we will do that.  Yucca: Well, if the wifi doesn't permit, we'll still record it and publish it. Well, we'll definitely do a podcast coming from there. Hopefully we'll be able to do it live though.  Mark: to do it live. Yeah. And have other people join us here on the zoom call would be really nice because I know that there are folks that are, you know, they're either in Europe or. Australia or they're just unable to get to Colorado Springs for one reason or another, that would still like to be a part of this. So I, I think that's really an exciting thing. So we invite you to register for that. It's cheap. I mean, you have to get to Colorado Springs, but. It's $215 for the three days that includes all your meals. We just sent the meal orders to the to the retreat center and we're going to have some really lovely food and plus lodging. So, and lodging can be as cheap as 70 bucks for camping for the three days, or it can be camping in a year, which I think is. Actually maybe the, maybe the year is $70 and the camping is $22 or something. I don't remember.  Yucca: Yeah, but they're, they're fairly low for.  Mark: yes,  Yucca: Yeah. And,  and  Mark: then there are  Yucca: there's the option for if people are local to the area, you know, you can live in your home and come hang out with us during the day. Right? Mark: Yeah. I mean, if you're, if you're within driving distance, then by all means, you know, register for the event and come in and just do the stuff with us. It's going to be great. We're going to have wonderful rituals and workshops and a lot of socializing and it's just in a dance party and it's going to be really fun.  Yucca: Yeah. So just around the corner may is very soon. So Mark: believe how close Mae is now. We've been talking about this for a long time.  Yucca: yeah. Mark: Yeah. Okay. Well, Thank you so much for listening as always. We really appreciate our listeners and we get great feedback from you and great ideas about things to talk about on the podcast. And I'm just super grateful to be able to do this and have listeners. So thank you. Yucca: Thank you everyone.  Mark: See you next week.  

The Inner Critic: https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/e/the-inner-critic-1612153312/ The Body: https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/e/the-body-1627969025/ Beyond Misanthropy: https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/e/beyond-misanthropy/ Decomposition and You: https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/e/decomposition-and-you/ Pagan Families: https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/e/pagan-families/   Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S2E47 TRANSCRIPT: ----more---- Mark: Welcome back to the wonder science-based paganism. I'm your host Mark. And today we are doing our end of the year. Wrap up. Episode we're going to look backward and forward and talk a little bit about things that we can do to prepare for the coming new year. Setting some vision for where we're, we're all going to go. And just sort of also really reflect on everything that we've put out this year on the podcast is there's been a lot of content.  Yucca: Yeah, they're really, as this'll be this looking at it now, this will be our 47th episode for this year. Mark: That is Pretty close to every week.  Yucca: close. Yeah. Mark: a few weeks that we had to cancel for one reason or another, but boy, 47 and this. Wow.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Okay.  Yucca: be our third year two. We're going into, we started back in the beginning of 2020, and we're going into 2022. course. I can't believe that we are. It doesn't feel like 20, 21 has happened. Mark: You know, we talked about this before. It is the weirdest thing. 2020 took about seven years. It went on and on and on. And I mean, there was the, the, the lead up to the election and there was the. The pandemic. And there were just all these horrible things that kept happening. Ruth Bader Ginsburg died and, you know, just all these awful things,  Yucca: from fires  Mark: all that stuff. Yeah. And, you know, floods and hurricanes and, oh my goodness. and. then 2021 came along and it was lickety split. Okay. We've got a pandemic, but it seemed like. January six was kind of the last, the last crisis of 2020. I sort of counted that as part of 2020. But things have gotten much more quickly since, and it really is hard to believe that 2021 is over.  Yucca: Yeah, so, but there's been, as we were just saying, you know, almost 50, almost 50 episodes of this getting together and talking about a lot of really great topics and we've had a few interviews and which hopefully we'll be having more of next year as well. That's been really lovely to have guests on. So.  Mark: So. We decided that we would spotlight five of our favorite episodes from this past year. And that obviously that's a trick in and of itself. If you've got 50 episodes, then you've got, you only get to pick one in 10. Right. But we went over them. And so these are the ones that we that we've decided to to highlight for you. And if you haven't heard them, you may consider going back into the archive on the podcast website and listening to those, Yucca: And we'll put links as well in the show notes. So yeah, whatever you're listening on. Just go ahead and look below and you can click on that and go right to them. Mark: Yep. And even if you've heard them before, you might want to give them. a listen again. I mean, we, we agreed that there was a lot of content that we think is really valuable in these episodes. And So. These are, these are keepers.  Yucca: Yeah, well, the first one is one that we've actually referenced quite a bit. It's one that way back, we're looking at February 1st, we talked about the inner critic. Mark: Yes. And this is such a, such a big issue for humans generally, I think, but especially steeped in the over culture of, you know, shame about the self and feeling constantly judged and questioning our value. The inner critic. becomes a real, a real stumbling block to being able to do the things that we want to do or to feel free enough to express ourselves. And as ritual practitioners, it particularly can get in our way, because it's really hard when you're there and you've got your focus all laid out and you're going to light the candles and the incense and the. Shrill voice in the back of your head is going, this is stupid and you're making an idiot out of yourself. And what is this stuff all about? It's not reasonable. And we all have to find a way to calm that voice, to meet it and calm it and push through it so that we can be as alive as we really want to be.  Yucca: Right. There were, there was a lot that we talked about in that episode, including what the purpose of the critic voice is, where it comes from. And then I think my favorite part though, is that we talked about ways of dealing with that  Mark: Right.  Yucca: and brainstormed some fun, different kinds of rituals you could do or just strategies. And it's something that I found myself thinking back. When my own critic has been very loud throughout the year and going well, we talked about this idea. Re-purposing, you know, giving it another job to be doing and all sorts of things like  that. So, Mark: It's, it's kind of interesting. I do, I do the same thing sometimes I'll, I'll run up against some kind of an issue and then I'm like, wait a minute. I seem to remember we had something good to say about that. Maybe I'll go and listen to it and take our own words to heart. So, that was the first. And I really encourage people to listen to that, that, that episode, because this really is something that we all contend with and it's a very human struggle and you know, I think many of us may know people who seem to have actually pushed past the point where the inner critic has a real control over their lives. And they're larger than life people. They're just sort of amazing, you know, filled with laughter and energy. And you can really see that at some point they've given themselves permission to be the fullness of who they are. And it's a beautiful thing to see.  Yucca: Yeah. So again, the link for that is in the show notes. If people want to check that out, we do really invite you to. Mark: So what was our next episode we picked?  Yucca: So our next was the body. Mark: Oh yeah, the body,  Yucca: Yes. The body. And so this is probably one that we said, oh yeah. And we talked about the inner critic for this one. Yeah. this is one that I think we can come back to again and again, there's so many layers. Mark: indeed, indeed. And there are. I mean, I think that there are different issues for people that have different living experiences. I know that for people like you and me Jaco, where our emphasis has very much been on learning and education and reason, and a lot of cogitating it's much harder to. Kind of get away from that very thinky state and immerse more in the body as, as a part of ourselves, right? As, as, as ourselves, not, not just a robot that we use to walk ourselves around, but truly an integrated part of who we are as being.  Yucca: And we talked to about some of the, the pressures coming from the over culture and what we grew up with. And that, by the way, is the topic that we're going to be coming back to soon as a full episode, talking about the over culture. You know, just some of those pressures and the shame and all of that, and really being able to get into ourselves and, and about how the body isn't really separate, you know, we're even talking about right now is being separate the body versus the mind. But those aren't really different things. Mark: Right, right. It's all, it's all one integrated system. And even our language won't let us talk about it. You know, we are, our language is so. Immersed in the idea of the the dualism of Mind, and body that we, we don't have a word for. The self that implies all of that. Even when we say the self that sort of implies the mind, the personality, the  Yucca: whatever soul  Mark: ghost, the ghost in the machine. Right. Whereas the machine is seen as less important and as this sort of dumb rule, And that's not what's going on here. It's an entirely different thing. So, that I think is a really interesting episode and I'm sure we'll be revisiting, you know, a number of those issues because it goes to, goes to self-image and body image and sexuality and everything.  Yucca: Right. Mark: No, it really does go to all those different places. And what was the date on That  Yucca: That was August 2nd.  Mark: Okay.  Yucca: Yeah. And then not long after. So in September, September 20th we talked about misanthropy fact it was called beyond. Mark: Yeah, that was a kind of a solemn conversation. Most of it, as I recall, because it's really a sad thing, you know, we were living in a time that many see as a district. And one of the things people tend to want to do when they are unhappy with how things are going is they want someone to blame. And so blaming humanity is, and just having kind of a, a dim view of humanity as a whole is one way that people come to grips with. The Anthropocene and the sixth extinction and climate change and, you know, massive plastic pollution everywhere and all the, the many, many problems that we see. And our conclusion was that that's neither accurate nor helpful. Really.  Yucca: not very productive. Mark: It's not that humans are not responsible for these things. We're fully cognizant that we are responsible for these things, but just kind of throwing all of us in the trashcan and saying, well, I I'm, I'm on team trees rather than teen humans. It doesn't, it doesn't really do much for us. And it's an angry. Stance and anger can be a powerful motivator. It can drive activism that can help make things better. But underneath that anger, there has to be love activism and, you know, revolutionary activity and all that kind of stuff. That's only been rooted in rage has never led anywhere. Good.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: It just has. So wanting what's good for the biosphere and for humanity is really an important piece. And we talked a little bit about ways to kind of move yourself in that direction. It was a good conversation about.  Yucca: Yeah. And there definitely were some, some kind of hopeful sparks in there. And that's really the takeaway that I would hope people would have is that, oh, you know, just. Hating us and just giving up and throwing up your hands about it. Isn't going to help anybody, but, but look, you know, there's these, we can actually, all these things that we don't like about humans. There's a flip side to that. It really depends on how you frame it and what you then choose to do with it. Mark: Right. You know, we were talking about the over culture a minute ago. One of the things that we tend to do is we assume that our experience of humans is the way humans are that we're just built that way. We are cultural animals and we are driven by the culture that we absorb as we are raised. I was, we, we had dinner with friends last night and one of my friends was saying, you know, more and more, I'm thinking that. The only way that I can get my mind to the right place around issues of equity and equality. And the earth is to re indigenize myself to, to go to a radically different way of understanding the relationship between humans and the natural world. And I think that's what we've been saying. In, you know, in the podcast in the wonder repeatedly is that really, you know, we, we can't just keep stumbling along through industrial capitalism and hoping that we're going to come up with a, a magic widget that's going to solve the problems. You know, it's going to take. More fundamental and substantive change than that. And that changes not only in the systems of the world, it's in the individuals of the world. And so it's incumbent on us to, to be that change  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: and you can't get there by hate. You just can't so beyond misanthropy check it out.  Yucca: And our next one is, be my favorite episode. To date, which is decomposition and you,  Mark: Oh, yes.  Yucca: yeah. So this was October 11th. And this one, this was looking at this is kind of our getting into our death episode. We did last year, we did a death episode, which I think would be. I would have loved to put on this list, but we were only doing it for this year. But we talked about the, the role of decomposition both on a metaphoric level, but also on a really literal level. And what does that, what is it in our world? Because that's fundamental to reality to nature. Mark: Yeah. I I particularly love this episode because it, it goes straight at. A topic that even within the pagan community gets avoided a lot. Because a lot of the pagan community believes in reincarnation. And so there's this death and rebirth thing and the end is not explained, right? It's like there's death And rebirth, and then you're there again. And you know, there you are being a happy, jolly creature again. And You know, in our science-based orientation, we don't see any evidence for that sort of an afterlife. And so really diving into, you know, here's what happens and here's why it's so important. And here's what happens to the component parts of us after we are disassembled. And then we become reassembled into other things and. Yucca: And so there is birth in there. It's just not ours.  Mark: Right. It's just  Yucca: our birth is coming from the death of others, but the, that self isn't continuing. Mark: Right. And that's the other important point that gets made in that episode, I think is that we live by dent of the death of other creatures. It's just, it's inevitable. It happens inside our bodies as well as outside of our bodies or, you know, right at the threshold of our bodies with our mouths.  Yucca: I mean, that's what you look outside. You look at the soil, you look at the trees, everything around, remember 4 billion years ago. That was all. That was all love. It just drying. Right.  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: But what we see, the life that we see is. Trillions upon trillions of individual deaths. So. Mark: And that's not a sad thing. It's a wonderful thing. It's a wonderful thing that those deaths happened so that more life could continue. And that that reframing of our understanding of mortality, I think, is so important. The pagan community does a pretty good job. I think of, you know, accepting mortality, but it still kind of hedges its bets a lot with this reincarnation or afterlife or summer land or Valhalla or whatever it is. And for those of us in the science based realm, Really confronting the fact that this life is this amazing miraculous improbable gift and it starts, and then it ends. And if that's okay and it's part of a beautiful process that unfolds so really encourage you to listen to that episode, that when Yucca: It's a lot of fun. Yeah.  Mark: Yeah. What do we have next?  Yucca: Well the other one and of course, Right. We had almost 50 episodes this, this year, but the most recent, well, one of the most recent was our episode on pagan families from earlier this month on the sixth. So December six. And so we had little lift and John join us and we got to talk about a lot of, a lot of great stuff in there. Mark: We did. And and it was, it was fun for me to be in kind of a different role since I don't have kids to be more of the interlocutor and ask the questions. And then have the three of you answer them. Lilith had to leave early because her daughter hit a deer. And needed help. So we we should. have her back on at some point to talk more about this stuff.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: So, because I know that she has, you know, very different ways of approaching things than John does and, you know, we want that diverse voice. But yeah, you know, for, for a lot of us who are raising families in these traditions and working to create the traditions as they go along, you know, it's not the same thing. Doing, you know, even secular Christmas is kind of handed to you as a package and you know, what all the elements are and what you're expected to do. We are, we are creating a cycle of observances and holidays with deep personal meaning for ourselves and our families. And we're doing that largely from scratch. And so hearing from other pig and families about how they do that, I think, you know, it was really helpful.  Yucca: Yeah, and it was just fun to have fun to have that group and just get some different voices there and yeah.  Mark: yeah. I I'm always struck You know, we've had several interviews over the course of the past couple of years, and I'm always struck by the enthusiasm. You know, people are, they're excited to be there and talk about their thing and what they're doing. I'm I'm, you know, when we had Daniel strain come on and talk about contemplated traditions, he was all pumped to talk about contemplate of traditions.  Yucca: And we had said no Wu, and that was just fantastic. She was wonderful. Yeah. Mark: Yep. And we have a list of some other folks that we'd like to invite, to do interviews on the podcast in the coming years. So, you know, look forward to more of that happening. Yucca: And while we're on that topic, one of the things that we are looking for which you listeners might know somebody, or might be someone who'd be interested. So mark and I are both from the Northern hemisphere and we don't have any experience with a Southern hemisphere or with a tropical perspective. On the wheel of the year. And so we'd be really interested in bringing someone on who that is, their framework. Mark: Yeah. absolutely. So, I'm especially fascinated to think about what you would do in the way of a wheel of the year for the tropics, because the C w they just don't have four seasons. It's not, that's just not how the world works there. So. Yeah. If you have suggestions of someone that we can interview or you know, please drop us a line@thewonderpodcastcuesatgmail.com. The wonder podcast, all one word Q s@gmail.com.  Yucca: And of course, any other suggestions for the coming year, things that you would like to hear, things that you'd like to hear more of that we've talked about already. Please let us know. We really love hearing from you. Mark: Yeah. We've had some lovely messages lately that have just really been just thoughtful and warm and just so nice. And people have questions or requests for particular kinds of subject matter, but they're also just, they're just really nice about appreciating the podcast and, you know, getting value out of this. So. That helps to keep us going that in the, you know, exorbitant paychecks that Yucca: No, it's all, as he fell, if you know, this is, we don't,  Mark: it's all  Yucca: we don't make any money from this. In fact, we pay money to host and do all that stuff. So,  Mark: right. yeah,  Yucca: yeah, but it's worth it. That's very much so, well that was our five, but mark, you were mentioning when we were talking about the families, how. A lot of us as pagans and as pagan families, we're making this up as we go, right. And we're forming these new traditions and kind of dreaming and an acting how we want things to be. And I think that's a great place to jump into the second half, which is the looking forward part because we are on the cusp of a new calendar. And we've talked about before, how people look at the calendar in many different ways. For some people, the calendar, the new year starts at, and, and for some people at the solstice and some people do, you know, just the change of the calendar year or spring as being the beginning. But right now we are where the calendar year is switching. And this is a time period where a lot of people independent of religion are looking at, okay, there's this new year. What, you know, what did I do this past year and what do I want to do in the future and how, you know, how, how am I going to be different this year? How are things going to be different? Mark: Right. Right. And so that brings us to the topic of new year's resolutions and, and, you know, goal setting and, and all, all that kind of stuff. And of course, Both of those goals, setting in new year's resolutions are very sort of Protestant, Calvinist kinds of approaches to this sort of thing. Right. I mean, what's, what's always bothered me about new year's resolutions is that they're like they're like, You know, a crystal glass or something. What if it gets, if it breaks, then it's gone. And so you're done. Okay. I'm going to go to the gym every week. Well, you go to the gym every week for three weeks, but you miss week four, then it's like, oh, well, forget it. I, I failed in my resolution. So what I like to do is to set themes for the coming year. And some intentions, but the intentions aren't an intention is something that you can fail at and then try out again. Right. So it's less self-critical and it's less kind of task mastery. It's more like this is something I'm going to do for myself. And, you know, if I have a miserable cold in week four and I don't go to the gym, well, that's fine. Then go, go next week. Yucca: Yeah, and the framing would be different perhaps, right? Instead of I'm going to go to the gym once a week, every week of the year, it might be I'm going to prioritize my health. Right. And then how, you know, I'm going to this year, my theme is going to be prioritizing me and my health and how do I work towards. Right. And so that staying home and staying in bed, when you have a cold, if that's, that could be woven into that theme. Mark: Right. I mean, the, the whole, the whole element of self-improvement, rather than becoming this sort of miserable set of tasks that you have to complete becomes an exploration of how you can best take care of yourself. And I mean, this is particularly important. I think for people who have the, the, the sort of non Western culture, idealized body shapes, because you may not need or want to lose any weight. There may not be any reason for you to lose any weight because you're, you know, you're shaped the way you're shaped, but you can still do. Yucca: not necessarily,  Mark: An indicator of health.  Yucca: yeah, it, it can be a symptom of some things, but it isn't itself. You can't look at just the weight and talk about health from that.  Mark: Right. So having, Yucca: picture. Mark: so having the intention of, of improving your health. I mean, it might have something to do with weight, but it might very well not. Whereas many of these new year's resolutions are like, well, I'm going to lose 15 pounds and that's not, that's not really caring for yourself in the kind of way that, that really having more of a, a high level goal for what you're seeking to achieve. The other important thing that I want to say about that is that It's really important not to try to set a theme or an intention, which is heavily dependent on stuff. You have no control over. Which I failed that last year. I, last year I set a FIM for myself, a prosperity and at the beginning of the year, things looked pretty good. I had a well-paying job and things looked. And then in the space of a month, we were told that we had to move, which consumed all our savings. Our cat died and our and then I lost my job. Boom, boom, boom. And you know, none of those were things that I had any control over. They happened. For reasons that were, that were beyond my purview. So, this year I want to be more judicious about the theme that I set I've I haven't really thought about it yet, but I'm going to do that. And I really encourage you to take on. Which you can control in the context that we're in. We know we're going to be dealing with COVID for at least the first half of 2022. So maybe, you know, setting a goal of having a house party once a month with 40 of your closest friends is not the thing to do  Yucca: Right. But even think about how, what you can control is how you respond to things. Right. So how are you going to respond to. Whatever the particular theme is that you have you know, what are the, what might your ritual life or paying more attention or things like that, that, that those are things that even if your life gets totally turned upside, And who knows what, what this next year is going to bring that what you do have control over. And I'm thinking about this as we were mentioning Daniel earlier, thinking about, you know, taking a page from the Stoics, right? Thinking about what do, what can you control? And it isn't, what's going on with world politics or whether there's a fire or a S or a hurricane or a drought, or whether you'll have a job. Or frankly, whether you'll be healthy or not, you know, there are steps you can take, but ultimately there are things that you can control and things you can't. And, and if you base your idea of success and your self-worth and happiness and those things you can't control, then you're setting yourself up for failure, no matter how good the year is. Right. Mark: right. And, and remember, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll insert this at this point. Remember the whole point of what we do as science-based pagans is. to be happier and more effective people and to help the world be a better place. Right. It's it's very simple. So. You know, if, if setting yourself up for that failure is not going to contribute to your sense of, of efficacy and your, your happiness, then it's time to rethink that, you know, because that's, that's what we're working to build.  Yucca: Yeah. Another thing that this has been a theme that I've noticed for quite a few years 2016 was a pretty rough year for a lot of people. 2017 was a rough year, you know, on and on. And it's, it's very popular and I suppose it might be a little cathartic, but it's very popular to be very negative about the year that happened and very, very pessimistic about the next year. Right. And be like, oh, well, you know, 2022. It's just going to be a repeat. No, everything's going to get worse. And and I, I would caution away from that because I think that, that the way that we frame things affects how, how we experienced them and not that hard things aren't going to happen. A bunch of terrible stuff's going to happen. Right. But a bunch of, of wonderful things going to happen as well. And, and which thing we're looking at and how we're focusing on what we're looking at is going to change how we feel about it and perceive it. And I think that we also have a little bit of responsibility in the way that we talk about things, to how it frames the story and the experience for other people around them. As someone who works with, with children and the youth a lot, I noticed that it's rough for them because the adults around them are all talking about how terrible this world is and how there's nothing left for them. And there's never going to be anything. Right. And, and that's, that's really, that's, that's a choice that we're making of what we're giving you. So this is an opportunity to go, okay, I don't have control over. What's going to happen, but I'm going to choose to look at the positive. I'm going to choose to look at the beautiful and whatever I perceive as being beautiful and, and support that in my language and into my attitude. Mark: That's very well said. Yes. I mean, we're not encouraging people to be Pollyannish.  Yucca: Yeah,  Mark: we, we do need to look. We have to look at the world and, you know, be aware of everything, but that's not the same thing as letting yourself fall into bitterness because that that's a really profound kind of personal defeat. It's very, very. hard to have a happy and fulfilling life if you're fundamentally bitter about the nature of life. Right.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: There's a lot changing in the world and there's, there's a lot of wrong. That's been done. But that doesn't mean that we can't be exponents for something better and also find the joy and the sunsets and the sunrises and the first flowers of spring and the Moonrise and the rainbows and all those things. Because those are very real too and ignoring them because the news, the nightly news was, was disturbing, is not a formula. For living well.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So we really invite you to sit down and think a little bit about, you know, what, what did you learn out of 2021? And What sorts of themes and intentions do you want to set for for 20, 22? And I should say, cause we haven't said it yet. You don't have to, I mean, you can just cruise right into January and you know, not worry about it. But if you want to, if you do mark this calendar transition then it would be a good time to do. Some of that thinking and, and making some decisions for how you'd like to frame the upcoming year.  Yucca: Yeah, Mark: And in the meantime, we wish you a very happy new year. Thanks for spending time with us over 2021.  Yucca: and we look forward to 2022 with you.  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: Thanks so much everyone.  Mark: Thank you. 

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S2E46 TRANSCRIPT: ----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts Yucca.  Mark: The other one, Mark.  Yucca: And this week it's already the solstice. So we're going to be talking about the winter solstice. Yule lots of names for it, but it's that time of year. Mark: Yes, so many celebrations happening and lots of traditions and rituals. And it's one of the in the year where the, the mainstream culture, the overculture actually really goes for some of the stuff that we as pagans are into in the way of rituals and traditions. And. Stuff that doesn't necessarily have a rational explanation, but it feels really good to do so you do it anyway. So we're going to talk about all that stuff. And here we go.  Yucca: Yeah. So first of all, this is a time that cultures all over the world in temperate latitudes have paid attention to it's something that we see in ancient sites. We see it reflected in many different religions and traditions today. It's just been a very important time because. The days have been getting shorter and shorter and shorter, and now it's turning around and it's like the light, like the sun is returning. Mark: I mean, you can imagine that at a time when the technology available was with rocks and Mastodon, ivory, and bones and reindeer horn and you know, stuff like  that,  Yucca: and moss.  Mark: right.  That seeing the power of the sun deplete and the days get shorter and shorter And shorter  Yucca: And lower and lower in the sky. Mark: Right. It would be very alarming. You know, the, the amount of time that you have available to hunt or, or search for food. Is steadily shrinking. And the time that you're exposed to predators that are nocturnal is steadily increasing. Meanwhile, the temperatures are dropping and so you've got to find fuel for fires and you know, this is. This is something that was very much a matter of concern for ancient people. And we know this because even today persist amazing observatories that were built by ancient people both in the Americas and in Europe and in Africa That line up the sun with stone formations on the winter solstice day. Some of the most famous ones are Stonehenge obviously, and then also the new Grange passage burial in Ireland. But there are lots of these these constructions there's one in Chaco canyon in the American Southwest. There's just a lot of them,  Yucca: Yeah. And even as. There were different kinds of cultures even, and perhaps even more for some of the agricultural cultures that are settled in one place. And they've spent all year preparing for this time. Now it's just a really, really important time in which this is what we've been getting ready for  now. And then the next few months of, of what were we working for all year and knowing,Humans We're good at to pick up patterns. Right. We know that that the days will get longer. Again, we know that this is a cyclical thing, but when you're in the moment, it's, it's very, I mean, that's, that's all there is. There's a now, right now and night is long at night is cold and. You know, why wouldn't it be nice to be back in that sun and to be back with the warmth and back with the, the short nights and the long days. And, and that's what this solstice is, is bringing us back towards it's that turn in the year. Mark: That's right. And that's why it's always associated with hope because the, the hope of the longer summer days. Inherent in the kernel of turning corner, the sun's starting to come back in, very, very faint sort of. Indications of that in the first few days after the solstice, but then it becomes more and more clear that the days are getting longer. it will still be very cold and not really possible to do agriculture for a while, at least, you know, that you're headed towards days when it will be possible.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So something else that becomes very traditional at this time becomes eating everything that will spoil before it goes bad.  Yucca: Because  we have a lot of that right now. We've got a lot of winter squashes, even though we didn't grow many ourselves this year, but we've got a bunch that are sitting and I go and I touch the bottoms of the beach day and I go up, oh, we got to use this one up. This one's getting soft and mushy.  Mark: oh.  Yucca: Right. Mark: So, and, and that's very deliberate because piling in a ton of count of calories when you're about to go into the coldest darkest time of the year not I'm sorry, not darkest, but just coldest time of the year is a very sensible survival strategy. You know, people that don't. Have a good read on the food cycles of where they are living. Don't do well over winters. They really don't. Half of I was talking, I, I guess when we were around American Thanksgiving and. This is a particularly significant year because it's the 400 years since the supposed first Thanksgiving with the, the colonists in Massachusetts and I'm descended from several of those. People who were there at that first event. the reason that they had those celebrations people don't generally talk about very much. The reason they had those celebrations was because before of them had died,  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: get through the winter because they didn't understand the landscape and they didn't understand how to plant to plant, how to live in that new environment we can see that the winter solstice becomes a really important marking point for the time of year people that are, you know, as we all do out of the soil.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Oh,  Yucca: And it's interesting today as we are in. On a societal level where this interesting place where we try and pretend like we're not part of everything else. We're not part of this world. Right. We've got our, our artificial lights and you know, who cares? The sun has gone down or rather we've turned away from the sun at this point, because while we just flip on a light switch, right, we've got the light here, we've got our refrigerators and all of our, you know, grocery stores that we go to. We have been seeing over the past year that, you know, maybe that pulse system is not quite as stable as we might like to think that it is. But there's something that it seems like we're still really drawn back to anyways, even while we're trying to pretend that we're not part of nature, that we're not part of this. And, and I think that pagans do that a lot less, but just talking about, you know, the overculture even the overculture it seems is just drawn to this particular time. Mark: And to the very traditional of light, right? is the darkest time of the year. And so some of the oldest traditions have to do with putting a candle in the window, putting candles in trees, which is dangerous as hell, but people do it.  They would bring a tree into their house and then they would put candles in  Yucca: Yes. And often your house would be made from what as well. Mark: Ymade from wood as well. Must have been really symbolically important to them because otherwise, why would they take that risk?  And we do that the same with, you know, Christmas lights now and you know, there to me, there's this sort of beautiful defiance. About those light displays at this time of year, that's just saying we will not have it dark. We will not. We, we, we defy the darkness with the light that we can create and we will make it beautiful. And will cruise by our house and go, wow, look at that. It's so pretty. And. I just, I think that's a lovely thing. I think it's and it's, and it's a very primordial thing. It's it, it, I think it strikes a chord really deep in our human psyche.  Yucca: Hmm. So let's start talking more about the. Our interpretations, right? We've been looking at kind of this broad scale of humans and over time, but within our own practices, within our own, you know, pagan practices and our own wheel of year for you, mark, what is, what is the winter solstice? How does that fit into your, your interpretation of the wheel? Mark: Okay, that's great. there, there are basically two sort of. Metaphorical plans that I overlay onto the calendar year. And the first is the agricultural cycle, which is a very pagan thing to do. You know, you've got your planting in the spring and you've got your maintenance in the summer and your harvest in the fall. And what that does is it makes. The, the returning of the sun at the solstice. The, the moment of the beginning of a new cycle. So everything is fallow. Everything is dormant. And now is the time when we start when we just hunker down, we're not worrying about food production right now because all the food production has been done. And so now we're just trying to keep ourselves alive until we can start food production. again. And that will be in the spring when birds are laying and so there eggs and there's some, you know, early herbs that we can eat and hunting is possible. You know, one of the things about about short er days is that Is that you don't have very long to go hunting. Hunting is not a or gathering either. You know, those are not sort of quick processes. You, it takes a long time to go out and accumulate food. And if you don't have that, that time, then you're not really able to do much. And in some cases, the game that you might've been hunting is migrated away and the herbs are in the ground. Cause they're not coming up yet. So, so this is the time when you just hunker down and you hang out with your friends and loved ones and just get through it. And this sort of kickoff of all of that is eating everything. That's going to go bad and loading up on calories as best you can. So as much in the way of sugar as you  can tolerate or get your hands on and celebrating. The fact that you love one another and support one another. And that that's how survival works for humans as social animals. And that starts the beginning of the year with this dormant phase, which then moves into planning and then planting. And then. Caring and all that kind of stuff. So that's the agricultural cycle. The other cycle is the cycle of a human life and metaphorically. I see the winter solstice as the equivalent of birth and infancy. you know, it's, it's the time of visioning, you know, before, before something, before you even plan something, before you start to figure out how to implement it and get resources together and all that stuff, you have to have a vision. And so here in the darkness is a really good time to be doing visionary stuff. The dark is often associated with divination and with imagination. And so I see this as really being that kind of a time. How about you? I know that you have a kind of biological  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: on the stations of the year.  Yucca: so certainly the, the first part that you were talking about in terms of the agriculturally what's going on, will we tie into that as well? The birth for me, I don't really associate it with the birth the beginning. And partly that's it has to do with that. That doesn't necessarily match the, the fertility cycle for humans being someone who's kind of been tied into that, you know, I actually associate this time of year more with morning sickness. Right. But this, we look at the wheel of the year. And we'll look at the different holidays and the different seasons as, and relate them to parts of our biosphere and parts of the ecosystem that we're really dependent upon. And this half of the year, we look at the forests and so the other half is the grasslands. If we look at the terrestrial biomes, they're really dominated by two different kinds, which is. The forests and the grasslands, it's mostly the non brittle and the. And so this time we're really honoring the, the forest, especially those, you know, the conifers and the, the forest creatures around that. And also the, the sudden our star, right? This is a really great, it's always around, but this is just like a good reminder of the, you know, as we were talking about two weeks ago with John last week star stuff, right? So this is a wonderful moment to be remembering that. Because when we are, when we're getting less exposure to something, it can help us remember how important it is. What is the the absence or  Mark: oh, absence makes the heart grow fonder.  Yucca: yes. Right. So it's kind of like that with, with the  Mark: I miss heat. Heat  was  Yucca: missed heat, sun and vitamin D. Oh, that makes my body feel so good. Where is it? Right.  So that's, that's really for us looking at and, and honoring that part of the, our biosphere and it works out very well with what's going on awith the overculture and Christmasristmas trees and, and,  it's, and for us we live in a very brown place anyways, but the only things that are green right now really are. We've pinyon pine and Juniper, and that's it. we look out, that's the only green that we see and they have their very unique quality of green anyways, but there is no grasses that are green. There's no little, you know, herbs or any of that. It's just the trees. So yeah.  Mark: yeah. So that that persistent quality of the evergreens is something that obviously was not lost on people going back thousands of years. The, the whole idea of evergreen trees, evergreen boughs plants that bear fruit at this time, like Holly and mistletoe and those kinds of things all end up kind of folded up into this winter solstice holiday. and I like to take as many of those traditions of those kinds of good feeling traditions into my practice as I can. I mean, we have a Yule tree. It's doesn't have an angel or a star on top of it. It's got the sun which is a star of course, but It's, symbolically it's designed differently. Yucca: It's, you're not putting the star of Bethlehem up. You're putting, you're putting the sun.  Mark: Right. Different star.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Yeah. And. I just find that a lot of what has come to be associated with this time of year is really lovely stuff. It's, it's getting together with people you love and it's exchanging gifts to show that you love them and it's singing and enjoying beautiful music and Of course the feasting and drinking and just having a wonderful time. And we need more of that. Honestly. I  mean, the overculture is really impoverished in terms of its willingness to allow us to enjoy things. And it, it wouldn't hurt us to have one of these every six months, you know,  really wouldn't.  Yucca: we actually do that. We've we've for us in our, in our tradition, our family tradition, we've elevated the summer solstice to a similar level of you know activity. So because yeah, just that sense of, yeah, we need, you know, once a year is not enough. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. And what's interesting is that it doesn't, you don't have to go very far back in history to find that there were times when there were a lot more of these, there were the quarter festivals, some every three months, there was a week of not only eating and drinking and visiting with friends and not working and all that kind of stuff, which of course was a great relief to people that were, you know, working as serfs on somebody. Land. But also it was the time when rents were paid and debts were collected and new contracts were entered into, so there was sort of a business aspect of it too. But like in which was right around the the audit autumnal Equinox was another such festival,  Yucca: What was that word? Mark: Mikel, miss. So my St St. Michael.  Yucca: Oh, okay. Mark: Yeah, so, and it was pronounced mikkelmas so yeah, it wasn't so long ago until the Protestant reformation, of course, which promptly banned Christmas and and everything else that was fun because it was pagan and frivolous. And unfortunately, even after the Protestant, reformation was over, we were still stuck with a lot of the damage that they had done. So, Speaking from a pagan perspective, we, we say as long as nobody's getting hurt, more fun as good.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And this is one of the one time of the year when people are really allowed to have fun.  Yucca: Yeah. So we, you mentioned, you know, you really enjoy bringing in as many of those. Are there any particular traditions that you have. unique to your particular household or ritual group or something that you haven't seen done  very often, even within the larger pagan community. Mark: No, I wouldn't say that what we do is all that original. What we do is we gather at one of our circle brother and sister's house. And after dark, we, we turn all the lights off in the house and we go outside and we hold our ritual and we sing songs around Around a cauldron, the sand in the bottom and a single little burning candle there until it gets really dark and cold. And then when it's time and we're ready, we all take tapers and light them from that one little spark and then go  into the house. And there are candles set everywhere throughout the house, in every room. And so we go through and we light the candles and fill the house with light  for the bringing back. And it's a simple ritual, but it's very beautiful. And it's, it's something I really look forward to every year. I'm doing that this afternoon.  Yucca: oh, wonderful. Yeah. So we're recording Saturday right  Mark: Saturday the 18th.  Yucca: yeah. Oh, that's lovely. That's coming up.  Mark: it is. Yes.  So. how about you? Are there particular things you do this time of year?  Yucca: Well, we do We do have a Mari Lwyd that we have in our house. And that we've done a sort of modified version. And, and some of you might've heard of this as the Welsh Christmas horse, but it, it is a very old tradition and probably has several different origins, but it was where. In the villages and there's been a resurgence this in, in recent years, but. They would dress up a horses skull and they calling her gray, Mary, and someone would dress up as her with this horse skull and beautiful laces and really quite, quite a thing. And. Then they'd go from house to house and basically have a poetry battle with the owner of the house. And if you weren't, if you weren't able to defeat the Mari Lwyd they come into your house and they drink all your booze and make up. Big ruckus and then go to the next house. And so it's something that is very, very old and there's lots of ideas of where it might've come from, but it's also something connected right now with kind of the, the Welsh pride and all of that. And we live in the states where we're probably, you know, one of maybe only a few hundred families in the whole country that actually speaks to in use as Welsh. So we don't really have anyone to go knock down the doors of. Go into their house with a horses skull. So we just, we set one up each year. And I do not have a horse skull but I do have a deer skull and one day I will get a horse skull but for now we, we decorate up our deer skull and have that up and it's it has a delightful. Little spookyness added to the to the fuel Christmasy time. And it's just, it's also a symbol of poetry and, and just that connection with our, with our heritage. And that's something that I haven't really seen anyone else do, but it's just a moment for us to connect with that part of our past. Mark: That's wonderful. It reminds me very much of what the local Morris dancing team does here. We have a team, the AppleTree Morris, who are, are local to where I live and Morris dancing of course is a very, very old tradition from the Cotswolds in England. And it was probably practiced in a lot of other places as well, but it kind of died out. And so it's these traditional English tunes and and dances. But one of the oldest and most traditional dances is the Abbott's Bromley horn dance in the village of Abbott's Bromley. They bring out these old giant reindeer horns. And they do this dance where the horns clack with one another, which is of course what male reindeer are doing right about now. And those horn sets have been carbon dated at more than a thousand years old. So those dances have been going on for a long time. I mean, it's been a while since there've been reindeer in England.  Yucca: Yeah, I was going to ask about those reindeer you sure? But wow. Mark: So there is a similar tradition that our morris team does, which is they hold a wassail in the, usually the first weekend in January. And the way the wassail sale works is it's prearranged with members of the team and other friends and fellows. You go to a house. They dance a couple of Morris dances in front, they sing the wassailing song and then they run into the house, eat and drink everything that isn't nailed down and then all pile into cars and go to the next house where they do it all. Again,  Yucca: Good. Mark: this takes all day and ends up at a very lovely party at the end where they serve traditional English wassail and. It's just, it's a really fun, lovely thing to do. and feels like a very old tradition.  Yucca: Beautiful. Yeah, it sounds like there's probably some connections between those.  Mark: Yeah. I think so there, you know, I've actually started a blog posts that I haven't completed yet about what I call mendicant traditions, which are the sort of beggarly pagan traditions also Ling and Going house to house for soul cakes in around Halloween and the Mary Lloyd. I mean, there's, there's a lot of these sort of begging traditions and tons of waffling songs for exactly that purpose. You know, God bless the master of this house in the mistress. Also. Meanwhile, give us some food and money and beer.  Yucca: Oh, yes. Mark: so I think that's a very interesting thing and and a very, very old tradition and I like to see it propagated and, and continued. I love those old things.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So as your kids get older, you could theoretically do something similar. If you made arrangements with friends where I, and probably not under COVID. I mean, this is,  Yucca: Yes, this is but we're hoping as they get older, that will be less and less of an issue.  Mark: Right.  Yucca: fingers crossed that their entire childhood been during COVID, which has been  Mark: Yeah. That's that's  Yucca: So, but they think it's normal. They think masks are totally normal, but yeah, as, as they get older, I think, I mean, we've already done. We do a lot of, of memorizing, which is something I didn't do as a child, but as an adult, I really love to be able to memorize things in that. Their father is into theater and, and all of that. So he's really that, but doing poems and, and memorizing literature and things like that is just a I kind of having your, your poem offs,  right?  Yeah. Mark: Yeah. The way I, the way that I've heard that Mary Lloyd described is you you take a highly decorated horses, skull from door to door and have rap battles.  Yucca: That's yes. And extra points if you can do it in Welsh. So  Mark: I see.  Yucca: yes, there is some English, but it's, it's tolerated, but, but if you can do in Welsh, then, then you know, that's like automatically you get an extra five points there.  Mark: Got it.  Yucca: Right. And then of course we do presence as well. That kids are very into that for the adults. We don't really bother that much. If we see something that someone wants that we think they'd like, then we get it for them. Whenever that is right. Oh, go. You'd like this book. Well, I'm going to get it for you now, even though it's October,  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: but for kids, it's fun. Mark: Yeah, I, I feel strongly about that. And I'm glad that you brought it up because I know that there are some people who are like, well, no, this present thing, it's all commercialism and it's terribly capitalistic and destructive and we're not going to do it. And I agree with all of those reasons. But it's cruel when you have little children who aren't going to understand that they see all of their peers getting presents and they don't,  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: it's just cruel and you don't have to go overboard with it, but it, in the, in the name of being kind and compassionate and, you know, not screwing up your kids any more than they necessarily need to be. I think it's better. That we incorporate presence. We don't have children as the listeners know and so we don't do presence either, but we still do a tree and we put things underneath it that make us feel wealthy, make us feel blessed  by  Yucca: a lovely idea.  Mark: of our life.  Yucca: That's beautiful. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. We really, we enjoy. Right now there's a tin of labor Kuiken under there among other things because Nemiah made traditional German Christmas cookies,  ginger cookies. And they're so good.  Yucca: Yeah, there are so many sweets this time of year that, oh goodness. That maybe it is good that we only do this part one time of year,  Mark: yeah, maybe. so  maybe  the summer solstice needs to be safe.  Yucca: That's an interesting, yeah, we've done. So we'll do we brought presence into the summer associates as well, so that it's kind of a, like, our goal has been to. To bring that fun part, but deemphasize that as it's not the only time of year that kids get presence,  right? So they get presents on their birthdays. They get presents on Christmas, but it's not like there's not going to be, you know, 20 presents or something like that. Although Christmas, we do have to deal with. You know, grandmothers and whatnot, but    but you know, coming from the parents, it's like, okay, there's about, there's two gifts per kid. Plus, you know, a couple of shared gifts between the kids. And then we do that during summer solstice and then we'll come back around in six months. We'll talk more about it, but we do decorations around the house and have it be a very kind of big deal as well. So, but it's got a very different feel. It's like, the, to the times of year, just so in six months, it'll just feel so different to be outside, to be in the house. It just feels different. Mark: Sure. Well, and you're in the Southwest too. So, I mean maybe the flavor scheme for the summer solstice could be more like she lays and, you know, savory salty things and.  Yucca: Although that really is our, is that is really our fault because when yeah. Oh, that that's what starts fall when you smell the green chili, roasting is  oh, right. And you drive by on the evening drive by on the road and people are out in front of the grocery stores and roasting it out. It's just, that is fall. Oh, it's wonderful. But by summer solstice is when we're. That's the zucchini season. That's when the zucchinis are finally like here we are. So we do lots of honey around that time because we can celebrate the, you know, the arthropods and things like that. And as a family, we spend a lot of time outdoors, but this particular coming back to December, this is even though it's very chilly, this is just an amazing. Night time of year there's meteor showers going on. And this year, right now, there's a really a special thing happening, which is the common Leonard. And so that's one that is not quite visible at the, by the human eye. It might be coming the next few days. We're not really sure. It probably is just outside of visibility. So if you've got some binoculars, even like bird watching binoculars or basic telescope, it's really, really easy to find right now because it's right after sunset, wherever you live. If you look towards sunset there's Venus, that's lovely. There's Venus, Saturn, and Jupiter all lined up  Mark: Oh, in  Yucca: beautiful little blind, right. And actually by the end of the month, we're going to get mercury as well and the evening sky, right in that nice lineup. But you look to Venus and then look right below it with your telescope and you'll see this gorgeous. And we've actually seen it the last couple of nights. It's beautiful. Green streak, which is a comment that is coming in. It's about a kilometer across its nucleus. It's a decent sized CLA comment. That's just going to wrap around the sun and then off it'll go.  So anyways, that's happening. And then you can be out in the gym and it's, although the peak has passed for them. They're still going for the rest of the month and the earth SIDS. So look the little dipper. So that's pretty easy to find because that's the north stars in Ursa minor, and there's a meteor shower that's happening right now. So pretty much, anytime you go out. You've got a good chance of seeing something beautiful in the night sky,  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: something a little bit less than usual. There's always beautiful things, but  Mark: Right, Yucca: yeah.  Mark: yeah. And then of course, here on earth, in terms of space stuff, the James Webb telescope is about to go up.  Yucca: Yes. Mark: And it's finally going to go, and that is really pretty exciting because it should be, it should give us the ability to look back to the very origins of the universe,  the earliest stars,  Yucca: The earliest light. Yeah. Mark: and that will, that will really be something  that will really expand our understanding of the nature of the unit.  Yucca: yeah. It's it's it's a much, much larger telescope than home. So in feet it's just about 21 foot primary mirror, but it looks an infrared. So we're looking really, really far back that allows us to look at cooler objects like planets. So we want to look at exoplanets planets around other stars. They're going to be giving off infrared their way easier to see an infrared than trying to look in the glare of visible light, but also those early stars as the universe has been expanding, light gets stretched out. So it's being stretched. The farther part of wavelength is the redder and redder gets well. It's been, the universe has been stretching for almost 14 billion years, so it's stretched out of visible light into infrared. And we just can't see that with any of our other  telescopes. So we had Switzer for a while, but that was a very comparatively, very small that wasn't even a meter primary mirror. So this one is going to be. We're looking at a huge, huge mirror, the most complex telescope ever, ever built and hopefully launched. So that's supposed to launch on the 24th and it's scheduled for 7:20 AM Eastern. So that's a little bit early for those of us in the time zones over.  Yes. I'm setting my alarm though, to, to watch. 'cause it's been a long time coming and then we'll have to wait about six months before we start getting information back. But it's, it could be, it really could be opening a totally new chapter and astronomy, really. If there's, if everything works as planned, then it can  literally change our understanding of the universe. And we just don't even know yet. So we get to spend a whole hour talking about James Webb, if you want. This is yeah.  Mark: But let's not  Yucca: Okay, I'll talk your ear off. After we, we hit the stop button. Mark: Okay. The solstice is this amazing magic time. And it's been known to be an amazing magic time for a very long time. So it's easy for us to, especially because the over culture does the same thing. It's easy for us to sort of suspend all of our quotidian ordinary. Stuff. And to go into this kind of amazing holiday mode where, you know, you wear ugly sweaters and enjoy, you know, drink at times when you wouldn't ordinarily drink and  Yucca: Eat sugar cookies,  even when you don't normally eat cookies at all. Yeah. Mark: Right. And go out of your way to let people that you love know that you love them. So it's, it's a,  it's a really special time and we hope that in your celebrations and rituals and gatherings and all that, that you have a very wonderful yule and winter solstice.   

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S2E44 TRANSCRIPT: ----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to The Wonder Science-Based Paganism. I'm your host, Yucca. Mark: I'm Mark.  Yucca: And this week we are talking about self-care about prioritization boundaries around the holidays. Mark: Yeah. Basically how to get through the next six weeks.  Yucca: Yeah. With all of the wonderful things that come along with this time of year. There's also some, some challenges. Especially when it comes to being able to take care of ourselves and, know, be the person that we want to be in that. Mark: Right. Right. And I think that a lot of that has to do with expectations from family. And friends' friends can also have expectations of our time and our attention and that kind of thing. And this particularly falls heavily on women who end up being expected to cook stuff and be the ones who wrangle the kids and do Shopping and all that kind of stuff. and it's utterly unfair and it can lead to a real sort of burden. On what should be really a time of celebration, a time when we're, we're enjoying the winter solstice and everything around it, and trying to have a holiday  Yucca: yeah.  Mark: know,  Yucca: And this is a really interesting year because for a lot of people they're trying to do makeup because of last year. Right. Let's make up for so much was missed last year and being like, okay, so we've got to go all out this year or, but then still, also, you know, trying to be safe and responsible. And there's just such, there's just even more added on top this year than there typically is during this time. Mark: Yeah, there is. I really feel that and of course That's showing up and kind of creating more nervousness in all kinds of ways, whether it's that the supply chains for presents are, are backed up and broken or,  Yucca: Or booze. I was reading an article today about how there's not going to be enough of whatever, you know,  Mark: oh wow. Our society will grind to a  Yucca: whatnot. Yeah.  There's a lot of drinking this time of year.  Mark: Oh, there is. Yeah. And we're going to talk about that some later. The, so the, you know, there's. There's that pressure on the one hand to try to really do it up this year, because we were so locked down last year. And then also there are constraints. We've got a new variant of the Corona virus that is causing some concern. There are all these sort of economic and supply chain issues. And so it could be. Even a harder to deliver on that expectation of really doing it up. Right. And all of that adds up to stress. And what this episode is really about is how to minimize your stress and try to turn these holidays into something that you're actually celebrating and enjoying. Instead of just kind of going through the motions and working like crazy in order to do what you think you're supposed to do.  Yucca: Yeah. So I think a really good place to start is thinking about what these holidays are for you. Right. And what is in an ideal world, what would you want it to be? Like, what is, what are you trying to achieve? What are the things that really, really matter to you? What are the things you value out of it? And starting from there? Right. Not necessarily what everybody's expecting from me, but what is it that is really matters to you and the wellbeing and the wants and hopes of other people can be included in that, but it needs to start with what are you trying to achieve? Mark: Right, right. For example Nemea, my partner, and I decided many years ago to dispense with presence. We're just not doing presence anymore because we already have plenty of stuff. And when we need something, we get it. And so instead of knocking ourselves dead, You know, running around, trying to acquire things. And instead we just take things that we value and put them under the tree and they remind us of that. We, we live well and. So to me, the part that's really important about celebrating the winter solstice is the, a lot of it is around the decor. That really makes the season for me in many ways, the decor and the food. And so, you know, having a tree and we have this wonderful collection of, you know, Ornaments that are animals from nature and antique ornaments from the 1940s and just charming sort of old world kind of looking things with the occasional exception, like a doctor who Tardis got to have that on the tree. I mean, you know, that's what makes it magic, right?  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So the, the decoration and the. You know, putting up lights and that kind of stuff is really important to me. And so recognizing that we've been able to sort of create holiday traditions that are mostly kind of low impact that give us lots of opportunity to just sort of laze around and still feel like we're really celebrating the holidays in a rich way.  Yucca: Yeah, I love that idea with the tree. Do you, do you wrap them in any way or you just sort of display them? Mark: We just display them? and they're illuminated by the lights on the tree which we use all The little incandescent white Christmas lights. So it, they look like stars or something, right. We, we might use colored lights outside the house, but we would only use the, the white ones on the tree itself, more like the Victorian candles or whatever. And Yeah. it's just, it's very charming. You know, one of the things that happens when you're doing that is. You kind of look around and go, oh Yeah. we have that thing that thing's really cool. You know, I've got African art and I've got, you know, Southwestern pottery and, you know, just things that I've accumulated over time that are, you know, really kind of fascinating things. And they have stories behind them. And I like to put them under the tree and remember the stories and remember how I got them and all that kind of thing. Yucca: Yeah. So it sounds like you've identified at the parts of the, the season that are really key for you and your household and that you're, you're doing things that are going to encourage those particular things. Mark: Yes. And that are going to encourage the particular feelings that I'm trying to get to for celebrating the holiday that, that cozy cared for. Well fed sometimes a little tipsy,  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Safe at home from the cold sheltered warm, loved feeling that the winter solstice Christmas ish. Yucca: Winter.  Mark: Winter. time holidays think can be. And what but what I've done is I've prioritized such that some of the most stressful of those things are, are off the table. Now I want to put in a word right now, though, for, for families, with kids, I wouldn't do what we do.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I think it's cruel to not have presence when all the other children in the world are getting presents. So it's, you know, that that's an important consideration. We, we don't have kids And so we don't need to do that. And so if you do then great that. But you  Yucca: very soon we're going to be coming back to the kids topic. So I know quite a few of you have asked about that in the email and we, we have some guests that are going to be coming on, and we're really excited to talk about that with you. So. Mark: Yeah, that's next week and it's going to be a really great episode. I'm So. excited about it.  Yucca: Yeah  Mark: so it's this prioritization thing. And of course, a lot of people, especially folks who are kind of completionist, you know, the kind of people who want to have every one of the collection there are a lot of folks who feel like they have to do everything in order for the holidays to be perfect. And honestly, I, I really encourage you. You know, make a decision, which is gonna add to my life more right now. Is it sitting down and watching a holiday movie or is it destroying my kitchen, baking something that I then have to clean up from? And maybe the answer is the latter because of the good feeling that you'll have by giving baked goods to friends and loved ones, but maybe it's not. And it's Okay. Just to sit down with a glass of wine and watch a thing with your loved ones and. I feel a good feeling about the season.  Yucca: Yeah. Yeah. So I think the key here is not, it's not feeling like you've got to do what somebody else thinks is the important thing, but what is important to you and being okay with going no. Do you know what that, this other thing that I'm being asked or I feel pressured to do, isn't going to be, isn't going to be the most feeding to me. This other thing is, or maybe there's an element in this other thing that's stressful for me, but it's really important. I really value it. So what else can I do to make that easier for me? What can I do to make sure that I'm still taking care of, even if I'm doing the hard thing, right? Maybe, maybe you do want to go and see the big gathering with your family and friends or something like that, but it's, but it's draining to you. You're an introvert. So what can you do? To support yourself, even though you're going to do the hard thing. Mark: Right. And I think that it helps to start with, to do some really formal prioritization, you know, get a piece of paper and write down all the holiday stuff. And then. Which are the A's in, which are the BS and which are the CS, right? Because then in a given moment, when you feel like, oh my God, this list is so long, how am I ever going to get through all of it? You can look at it and say, well, actually, I'm going to do, I'm going to do an, a activity right now instead of a C activity. And if I get to the C activities, that's great. But if I don't, that's also great.  Yucca: Yeah. And so if you keep a journal or, you know, like a book of shadow kind of thing, this is a wonderful activity to do in the. And not just for the holidays, actually, this could, this is a great idea to do for many, many things, whether that's like your one-year plan or your, you know, by season, by season, whenever that is. But especially now, when, so much, when we're asking so much of ourselves and other people are asking so much of a. Mark: Yes. Yes. As, as we keep going back to over and over again, you know, this, this path is about joy. It's about a sense of place in the world and, and celebration and meaning. And if busy work or sense of obligation to others, swamp. Those feelings of meaning and joy and celebration, then something's out of balance and it needs to be fixed. And this is a way that you can start to figure out what's really important to you and make those the priority.  Yucca: Right. Mark: So another thing that we were going to talk about is self care during this time. What's really weird. About people, is that at the times when they're most stressed are the times when they abandoned their self-care routines. And I know that this is true for me too.  Yucca: Likewise. Mark: really, really tempted, just not to do the daily things because, oh my dear, I don't have enough time.  Yucca: Yeah,  Mark: And.  Yucca: or I'm so stressed. So I'm just gonna reach and open that can of cranberry sauce and eat it with a spoon. Right? Mark: I've done that. And I admit it. I like cranberry sauce. It's good. Yucca: I do too. It's it's a lot of sugar though. Mark: It is a lot of sugar. Yes. it is. And this, of course, I'm speaking of sugar that can really kind of turn up the stress on the whole holiday, both through your own consumption of sugar and your kids' consumption of sugar.  Yucca: You kids or your spouse  Mark: yes.  Yucca: the other driver,  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: right? Yeah.  Mark: Right. So it's really important to be doing our, our, our daily observances to be taking time to center and ground to be going outside and having the sun dim and pale as it is right now, hit our face and know that it's another day and that we are here on planet earth and that we are part of the universe doing its thing.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And to go out and look at the stars, the we've had amazing sunsets here recently, just super gorgeous. And then of course there are very bright planets in the sky right now as well. So it's been fun to see.  Yucca: Over the next few weeks, the German ads. It should be spectacular. So one of the two really big meteor showers of the year, and these ones are wonderful because you don't have to wait until midnight to see them there. They're often visible during the evening hours as well. So, but you've got to brave the cold if you live somewhere where it's cold. Mark: sure. Sure.  Yucca: But there's something nice about that too. Bundling up and just feeling the cold nip on your face, but you're all warm inside of your. How many other layers of blankets and jackets you took out with you? Mark: Right. Yeah, we'll be talking about winter solstice as we, as we get closer to the holiday. And one of the things that has been traditional for my circle of people for a really long time is going outside and sitting in the cold in silence for about a half an hour. Before we do our usual ritual Just really experiencing, you know, it's cold out here and I'm dark. And that's what the season is about. This is, this is what we're protecting ourselves from when we huddle in our nice warm houses and light our fires and all that kind of stuff.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So self care self care also has to do with regularly taking your internal temporary. You know, how am I doing? Am I feeling frazzled? Or am I feeling like I'm on top of it? And yes, I'm moving. There's, they've got momentum, but I'm, I'm taking care of business and things feel pretty good. So check in with yourself two, three times a day, you know, where, how am I, and if I'm not doing well, then what can I do to change that? How can I grab 10 minutes to meditate? How can I eat a meal that isn't full of sugar, eat something that's, you know, got some protein and some fat in it.  Yucca: bring you down and ground you. Mark: Right. Exactly. Because one of the things that I've seen, people that are health conscious do with the holidays is VAT is kind of vacillate between sugar and vegetables. And that will not ground you at all. You know, some protein and fat in there in order to really get your, your digestive system going okay, we've got everything we need now.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So, you know, taking care of your diet, making sure that you are eating enough and  Yucca: And sleeping. That's the other really, really big thing. Mark: So. So important. And I know that it's really hard for folks that that can kind of perseverate about, oh God, tomorrow, I've got to go this and this and this and this and this and this or this thing. Didn't go well today. And I wonder what so-and-so thinks about it and sort of spin really try if you get yourself caught in one of those two, just tell yourself, I have time to think about this. I'm not going to solve it now. It doesn't mean that it's not important. I'm not saying that it's not really worthy of serious attention, but right now I'm not going to solve any of it. Cause it's three o'clock in the morning and it's time to go to sleep.  Yucca: Yeah. And there's some visualizations that you can do or some kind of small rituals that, you know, finding something that works for you, but for some people having a literal drawer in the drawer, And opening that drawer up and imagine taking those worries out, taking those thoughts out, literally, you know, taking it from your head as if you were pulling it out like a string and then tucking it in the drawer and closing the drawer and promising that you're going to come back in the morning and then you'll get it. When you get dressed. And that's something that or you could even wear it as a piece of jewelry, take the jewelry off and put it in the drawer and come back for it. And that's just doing something like that can give that extra little bit to help our, to help get the buy-in from that non-thinking part of ourselves. Mark: It's a great idea. So taking care of yourself and that means keeping an eye on how much you're sleeping, how much you're eating, how much you're drinking, because there are lots of social occasions right now. So, and, you know, people tend to crack the booze open at these social occasions. So, you know, maybe it's some of them, you decide you don't want to do it. Right. You're just not going to, or if you are going to then just being really aware overall of what your intake is being and certainly being very careful when it comes to getting in a car and all that kind of stuff, you know, make sure that you're safe and that the people with you are safe.  Yucca: Right. And, and be aware of course, on the road of folks who may have not made those same decisions as you,  Mark: Yeah. I mean, we all know that everybody else drives like an idiot.  Yucca: Not us. Nope.  Mark: but not  Yucca: We're not. Yeah,  Mark: we, we don't, but the rule is that in December, up through new years, people really drive like an idiot.  Yucca: Yeah, really seriously. So especially new year's Eve and then here in my county so. We actually just passed this, but Thanksgiving, so Thanksgiving night and then sports games too. Right. But those can be really those times of year where people have had stuff to drink. They've been in party situations or they've been around families and emotions are high. And those, those two particular nights. The most dangerous night of the year. So, so if he could avoid being on the road, then that's, you know, you never know when that choice actually did save your life  Mark: right,  Yucca: or someone else's. Mark: Yeah. I really try to be, to avoid being on the road on new year's Eve. And actually it's kind of ironic. It's like when, when the mayor I used to do new year's Eve parties, I felt like it was safer because the parties went until like five o'clock in the morning, because almost no one was on the road then, you know, people that had been drinking heavily were asleep by that point. And we, we were a little bit better off rather than if we went at two, for example. But yeah, it's, I, I just, I prefer to stay at home. It's just not, not safe. So, you know, kind of being aware of your inputs and making sure that you're getting the kinds of things that will keep you healthy and balanced and on an even keel are all really important. If you feel like you're getting a little out of control in some way. First of all, there, if you're really feeling like you're getting out of control in some way, and you need support, there are hotlines and call them hotlines and warm lines, call them. You don't have to be in a desperate situation in order to qualify for that support. You can call them up and they'll talk to you and listen to what you're going through. And it'll be helpful. So, you know, be aware of that.  Yucca: you can text.  Or that you can be texting with somebody. If, if the speaking on the phone is one of those things that that gets your heart rate going, and that wouldn't be helpful for you. There's still, there's still support that you can get without needing to be on the phone. Yeah. And stepping away and taking a moment for yourself when things like that are happening, maybe he's going to a show. Great. You know, those things where you normally get to have a little bit of space, assuming you don't have a toddler. If you do that, I'm sorry. You don't have any space ever alone time, but assuming that you don't have a toddler, you usually get to use the bathroom or take a shower or something like that on your own. And, and taking a, just a moment away to breathe, to look at, you know, go through that, read that prioritization and maybe stop and think about. some of the self care missing because we can often forget that the physical what's going on physically in our body has a huge impact on us emotionally on our ability to handle stress on our, how cranky we are, how, how we take common. Right. So do we immediately jump to thinking that person was trying to be rude or do we assume good intent? A lot of that has to do with, with what's going on in our whole body, as animals, as creatures, not just what we think should be happening. Mark: Right. Absolutely. So let's talk a little bit about kind of some scenarios. I mean, I'm, I'm thinking about the family gathering particularly because, you know, for most of us family gatherings or something, Are not really avoidable at this time of year. There's something that we have to do. And  Yucca: something we want to do. Mark: for those of you who are who enjoy that and have a, a good relationship with your families, congratulations, I'm really happy to hear that and go enjoy those. But for those where it's stressful, either because. It's just a big press of loud people and you're introverted, and that is kind of hard for you, or because there are people there that you find problematic for whatever reason. Let's talk about some things that you can do at one of those events in order to kind of keep yourself balanced and. Make sure that you're in a, in a situation where when you leave, you feel good about how you conducted yourself and all that. The number one, one to me was always stepping outside. It's a lot quieter outside. You can sort of reground yourself by looking at what's there And saying there's a tree and there's a bench and there's a Bush. And just sort of, you know, re anchor yourself in reality. Which can be very helpful and honestly, just standing or sitting for five or 10 minutes outside where it's much quieter and breathing can do wonders to lengthen your fuse and improve your, your capacity for enjoyment. Yucca: And if you have a grounding practice, this is what you've been practicing for. Right? That's the, that's the thing with practices. You got to do them over and over so that when you need them. You can do it. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. And what I don't recommend is drinking to get through them. 'cause then you're just, you're more reactive. Your, your inhibitions are suppressed, so it's easier for you to make a snappy comeback that is very witty and incisive and escalates the situation when you really didn't want to.  Yucca: Yeah, Mark: So, and I know that that can be a problem in some families because there's this thing of, oh, we're all drinking. Why aren't you drinking kind of thing? Well, you don't have to give any excuses for not drinking or for drinking very little. You can, you can drink water or you can drink juice or  Yucca: Or you could carry around that same bottle the whole time and kind of nurse it.  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: the one, you know?  Mark: Right.  Yucca: Right. And there are some things that you can do going into a situation to prepare yourself ahead of time. Again, going back to some of the visualizations where you know, you can. You can think about like shielding or imagining yourself like a Reed and the river, just bending over and letting the, letting the stress or the insults or whatever it is just flow right over you. Mark: Sure. And, and don't forget your ritual practices. I mean, if you really feel you need protection from someone who's going to be at these gatherings, make yourself a protection amulet and wear it around your neck, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: you know, do do those ritual things that remind you that, that you, you have the power to be safe. And you can make that into something tangible to remind you of that and put it around your neck and, or in your pocket, whatever. And you'll, you'll find that it actually increases your, your level of confidence in doing that.  Yucca: One thing that I like which depending on, on your cultural situation might not be available to every one of all genders, but painting your nails. As part of the ritual. I don't paint mine very often. Because I completely destroy it with, cause I use my hands too much within about two or three hours, they're gone. But, but if you're going to a situation like that, you can pick a color. That's a little bit different. It's something that you're going to look down and see, and notice it's, if you don't normally wear the Polish or if it's a different than what color you normally do. And then it's just a reminder of a check-in ground or whatever it is you want it to be there. It is on your hand. Mark: Sure a bracelet can  Yucca: That's another one. Yeah. Mark: Something that, something so that it's within your field of vision you know, it could even be something, you know, pinned to the inside of your sleeve or something like that. But Any, any of a bunch of options. The main point is something to remind you. You know, I, I went through this process to remind myself that I have power in this situation. I'm not in danger. I'm going to be fine. And carry that with you. And I think you might find that You're able to avoid friction when it is, when it's offered to you. You're able to avoid those sticky situations. We haven't actually talked about, you know, the racist uncle trope that, that can be a really hard one because, you know, as, as people who are activist minded, we feel called not to let that sort of thing slide My, my approach to that kind of situation where I'm, you know, I'm in somebody else's house. I, you know, I really don't want to mess up their gathering by picking a fight is just to say to someone who says something that's awful, I really disagree with that. And then to walk away,  Yucca: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, I mean, each one of these situations is going to be so different that it's hard to say, you know, how. How one would respond in that situation. But if you think that you may have that situation coming up, practicing it ahead of time of how to respond in just role-playing it out in your mind can be helpful in deciding ahead of time, what the approaches that you want to have so that you just are in a more prepared place. So that if that's the choice, if that's the way that you'd like to respond, then you're prepared to respond that way. And you're not just completely caught off guard,  Mark: right?  Yucca: right? Yeah. Mark: And you know, it's, it's perfectly reasonable for you to decide that you're not willing to go to a setting where you're going to be exposed to that kind of, you know, abusive bigoted kind of thought.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And I know that it can be hard to negotiate that with family sometimes because, well, you know, uncle Ralph, everybody knows about uncle Ralph, but he doesn't mean any harm, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But you don't have to hold yourself into that situation if you don't want to. And you are not under any obligation to put your children or anybody else in your family in that situation either. So. You know, know that I, it, it takes, it takes some, some courage and some grit to be willing to put your foot down and say, if he's there, I'm not going,  but you do have the power to do that. You're a, you're a free and sovereign being.  Yucca: Yeah. And that, and you get to decide for yourself those lines are, where those boundaries are. And. That's right. Mark: Yes. So meanwhile, after you've been to the, the awkward family gathering, then you can come home and now you're in your environment. And you get to decide, as we've talked about before, what your activities are going to be, what your rituals are going to be. Which days you're going to celebrate, because boy, December is just full of them. But the winter solstice is sort of the. Central operating principle of all of them. Originally. This is just the time of year when people ate everything that was about to go bad huddled together for warmth. And God happy that the days were starting to get longer again.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Okay.  Yucca: So they just still on that family gathering. If you're someone who like myself. I'm quite an introvert. I find social gatherings, really very challenging, but having something prepared to come home to is really helpful. Even if it's the, you know, my bathrobe that is hanging on the hook and you know, I go and I change into my bathroom. You know, cozy sleep pants or something like that. It can be, it can be really helpful just to signal that, that shift that, okay, now that is done, you know, closing that and now I'm transitioning into whatever it is that the letting letting go of all of that in. People energy, whether it was a good energy or not, you know, just letting go of that and moving, moving situations and going, okay, now, now what let's move on. Mark: Right.  Yucca: And for every person that's going to, that's going to be different, what it would be for you or whether that's even necessary, you know, but just kind of tuning in with yourself to check out what is it that you need, and what's gonna help you in these situations. Mark: Oh, I just remembered something. I was going to say about the family gatherings as well. Working out a plan with a partner is a great idea. Ways that you can signal one another. You know, I've reached my limit. I got to go.  Yucca: Or come get me out of this  Mark: yeah. You know, please come over here and change the co the change, the subject or, you know, grab me and say that you need me for a minute and drag me away. You know, just having, having a plan for how you can support one another is, is really a great thing about a partnership. And so it's something else that you can, you can do for getting yourself through those, those challenging situations.  Yucca: Yeah. That's a really good point that if you do have someone with you where you can, you can be a team.  Mark: Right, right, right. And of course it bears saying that for all those folks out there that are polyamorous and have multiple partners, but they can only bring one to the family gathering because everybody would freak out. We're really sorry. That's just really an ugly situation and things are evolving, but they're not evolving fast enough.  Yucca: Great. Yeah. And then, and looking at that there's of course the other side, we've been talking about the story of going to the big family gathering, but there's a lot of people. That's not going to be the situation for them, right. Where for whatever reason, you know, they don't have that family or they aren't on good terms or they're far away or whatever it is. And then there can be that pressure coming from everything around us about how you're supposed to be doing that. And there's all of these activities you're supposed to be doing. I think that some of the advice we were talking about before is really helpful for that too, of stepping back and going, well, what do I want out of this? And how do I get that? Right. Do I, you know, what, what is important? Do I want to have that feeling of the gathering and if so, how do I get that? Right. And if not, what is it about solstice? What is it about this time of year? That is what I want. Mark: right, right, exactly. So, Yeah. and I mean, I'm in that situation, I don't deal with my blood family at all. I have chosen family, but not, not blood family. And it can nag a little bit at this time of year, you know, at this time of year, when it's supposed to be all families, all being warm with one another, you know, w that, that can kind of great to realize that their, to that we're not talking to one another.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Over time, it's become much more comfortable. And some of that is because I've created the family that actually would care about me. And some of it is that I've gotten more used to doing things alone as well. You know, a lot of the, a lot of the rituals that I celebrate during the various Sabbath. So things that I do by myself and I, I enjoy them. They they're meaningful.  Yucca: Yeah, Mark: So did we have more on a self care at the holidays?  Yucca: I think we've, we've jumped around and talked about a lot of things, but I think that we've covered most of it here. Right? Talking about there's preparing yourself ritually, looking at what you want, what, what you really value taking care of yourself. Physically as well, you know, getting outside for a little bit, not overloading yourself on the foods that you know aren't going to do well in your body. Sleep, all of those things.  Mark: Right. Oh, and I guess that I should also mention because we talked about support a little bit. This can be a really tough time of year for people who are sober. And, you know, for, for folks who have been sober for a long time, may maybe they're not going, or maybe they never went to AA meetings before, or because they just quit another way. Apparently is not particularly more effective than. Quitting other ways. But you might  Yucca: of different things for many different personalities and Mark: Exactly. and so availing yourself of some of that support at this time of year may be really helpful. You know, if, if you have a sobriety buddy now may be a time to get together with them and kind of reaffirm your, your commitment to staying sober and. Just, you know, for all of you out there listening to us, we, we care about you and we want you to care about yourselves. You know, this is this is a time that's a little bit buck and alien and it's possible for people to get lost in that. and we, we don't want anybody to get lost. So,  Yucca: yeah.  Mark: so next week, Oh, ahead. Yucca: Oh, well please continue. Go in the same place. Mark: next week we have two guests who along with a Yucca can speak to raising pagan and children and, you know, paganism within the family. And we're, I'm just so looking forward to this conversation, I think it's going to be great, even though I won't have much to contribute to it. And  Yucca: I bet you'll have some insightful questions though.  Mark: Yes. I'm sure I can ask questions. I just won't have any answers,  Yucca: But it, this will also be our largest podcast in terms of the most number of people on at once.  Mark: Right. We're going to have four. So, that's it's we'll we'll see how it works.  Yucca: Yeah. I'm excited for it. And then of course, after that, we are almost at the solstice, so we'll be getting into some of the different sides about that. Mark: Right. Right. So in the meantime happy holidays, whichever ones you celebrate to all of you. And we hope that that this has been helpful. And we'll see you again next week on the wonder science-based paganism. 

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S2E33 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to the wonder science-based paganism. I'm your host Yucca.  Mark: And I'm mark. Yucca: And this week we are talking about sigils. So it's another really fun one where we're going to get into the nuts and bolts the details. Get into a specific practice.  Mark: Right. This is a time honored tradition. People have been making. Hmm, symbols that they consider to be magical for thousands of years. We have the, you know, the seals on the tombs of the Kings in, in Egypt Lots of really kind of very old symbols that are meant to have magical powers. So, this is something that we can do in our own time. And it's fun and it can be psychologically effective. So we thought we would do an episode about it. Yucca: exactly. And I think a really great place to start is to come back to our view on magic and magical practices and how we see that, because this is a. Non-thesis is a science based paganism podcast. So when we talk about a magical practice, we aren't saying that that this is, you know, magic with a capital M where we're really making things float or fly or casting spells. This is a psychological process.  Mark: Right. This, this is something that we can do, which will change us internally. Our, our brains are, our minds are incredibly programmable and are we're constantly creating new neural pathways to accommodate new experiences and new understanding. Our, our brains are very plastic in that way. And so we've, you. The practice of rituals and magic and so forth as with the intention of changing something about what's happening in our minds, whether it's our emotional state or our our degree of focus on something that's important to us or our commitment to a goal any of those kinds of things. And what's really cool about a sigil is that it can give you this. Sort of quick flash stamp of something, which will then remind you of a whole magical meaning that you folded into the creation of that sigil. Yucca: Yeah. So. So given that, I mean, let's, let's get a little bit more into what a sigil. is. I loved the imagery that you started with, right? The, the symbol on the tomb and the ancient pharaohs and things like that. But, but this is something that gets used in a lot of different cultures over millennia and something that we do today.  Mark: Yeah. And some of them are some of those kinds of symbols are very standard eyes. Like the evil eye, for example, in many of the Mediterranean cultures is something that's been around. It appears for. At least a couple thousand years.  Yucca: Predating the religions that commonly use them today.  Mark: exactly. And so those, those symbols become freighted with not only meaning for the individuals that are putting them down, but then also there's that historical momentum coming in behind them. And so when you create a new sigil that won't have that historical freight behind. But what it will have is the history of all sigil making through all human history, leading up to the moment that you inscribe your sigil for the purposes that you intend. Yucca: And depending on how you create your central, you can work in. Some of those historic city rules as well, or elements from them, things that remind you of that and bring it in, I'm thinking about the evil eye or the Humsa or hand to Fatima. Like you can, if you already have a relationship with that, choosing colors or shapes or things that are reminiscent of that can just can strengthen it for you. It's about what that association is in your mind. And what it communicates to you instantly.  Mark: Right. Right. When I wrote a post to the atheopagan is a blog which is that atheopagan is some.org about sigils. I called them barcodes for the brain. Because I really think of them that way. They are something that your brain can read in a little short beep and get a whole, a whole collection of meanings that you have, that you have compressed into that little sigil. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: And so it can be something very useful to put on your focus or alter which is another term for what we call focus. It's something that you can inscribe on magical tools. I I've known people that made a sigil and put it in their wallet. And just carried it around whether it was for safety or for prosperity or for a focus of a particular intention. Those are things that they, they concentrate on and they, they have it there so that they see it on a regular basis. And it reminds them once again of the ritual work that they've done to focus on that outcome. Yucca: And one thing I did. So. Done sigils before. And mark suggested a few weeks ago, oh, this is a topic we could do. So I said, well, I've, I've never done this before. I know about the concept. So I did a little bit of internet research and I tried two different weeks doing it. And the, this past week it was really, really successful for me. And one thing that I did was I actually drew it on my wrist with henna and it, and this was something that This was a very, you know, not to be too over sharing, but this week was a really challenging week. It was one of those weeks where like all the crisis has come at once and everything stacks up. But I had a lot to be doing some, a teacher. My semester was starting at all these new classes we were receiving evacuees from the coast coming in because of Ida and all kinds of things happening all at once. So I, yeah. Tried one of these and it was about returning to focus. And so I felt like it wasn't something that I needed over a long period of time. It was something that it just really needed for this week. And so putting it I dunno if you can see, it's almost, it's pretty much gone. But it lonely lasted for a few days on my wrist because you know, washing my hands and that part of is rubbing up. And when you put hen on somewhere on your body, that doesn't get a lot of contact if they can stay for a long time, but the HANA worked really well. So that can be an option for people who use that, like you were suggesting putting on the dashboard or on the focus, or you could literally put it on the body as well.  Mark: Yes, that's very clever. I like that. Yeah. I mean, I know people that have had permanent tattoos and sigils as well, but the idea of something that, you know, where you have this identified immediate need, that isn't necessarily a long-term need, but having it there so that you see it on yourself all the time. That's that's I could see how that would be very helpful. Yucca: Yeah. And somewhere where I could see it, but it's also not super public right. Asleep can cover it, but I'd still notice it  Mark: Right, right. Yucca: you know, maybe not putting it on my forehead.  Yeah. I mean, I think that might work for some people depending on what you're doing, but if you're public facing, that might end up with more questions. Of course, that could be the purpose. So it really depends on what you're trying to do with it.  Mark: right?  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Yeah. So, that, and that really is an important piece of the, the process of any sort of so-called magical ritual process. You have to understand what your intention is, right? You need to know what you're trying to accomplish. And in my work at the focus or alter a lot of the time, what I am seeking to do is just to create that kind of present grounded, warm, glowing feeling that I have by candlelight and in front of my focus. And that's all, that's all that I want. I'm not trying to make anything change. I'm not trying to. You know, program my psychology with any particular intention. I just want that good feeling that comes from going into that ritual state. But if you do have something that you want to accomplish, you know, if you're stuck behind a procrastination block or your You're really trying to focus your attention on something very important in your life. Like getting a job or finding a workable relationship or, you know, those kinds of things. It can be very helpful to get very, very clear about exactly what it is that you're seeking to achieve. And I have always felt that the more clarity you have, the more specificity you have about what it is that you're seeking to achieve. The more likely it is that you'll you'll make that happen for yourself. So not just, I want a relationship, but I would like to be connected with a person in this way, who has these kinds of attributes? So that, so that you can recognize it when it comes along. So that you're, you're clear about, you know, oh, well here, this, this is the sort of thing I've been looking for. Yucca: And to, to become really clear on what it is that you really are looking for. because sometimes our surface understanding might be very different than when we stop and really examine and evaluate. You know what is going on. Sometimes we can see certain emotions can be hiding as other emotions. Like quite often, something like anger when you really get underneath it's. Oh, no, it's really fear  Mark: Right,  Yucca: And so maybe the addressing the fear is what's going to let everything else. It's going to unblock, let the rest of that river flow or whatever it is that you need to happen.  Mark: Yes. So, yes. I think that's true. And and so now we should talk more about About what the process is, how you make them. And then, then we can go into various ways that they can be used. So a sigil is. A symbol, typically a complex one and the most common way that people make them is by taking a key word, a word that encapsulates the thing that they're looking for. And it may, or maybe two words or even three not a whole long sentence because that's a whole lot of symbols to have to sort of compress altogether. And what you do is you take those letters and write them out, strike out all the valves. And now you've got a bunch of consonants and that is your raw material for making your sigil. You, you can put those together in various ways. You can add like little circles or squiggles or flames or whatever, whatever attributes you think. Add to the sigil. You don't have to use all the letters. That's very important to understand, essentially what you're doing is you're creating the crystallization of the concept that you've written down in the words, and it doesn't have to look like anything that's readable to anybody, but you. Yucca: And when I was doing research for it, I found some really interesting playful things that people would do. So instead of letters, They took the letters and made it kind of a code where they associated one letter with a number. So ABC might be 1, 2, 3, right? And you go all the way to your 26 and you could swap it for numbers or where they made a grid with the alphabet and the position that the letter was in would then associate with where on the symbol, that letter would go.  I saw some people doing some backwards writing. And there are a few really just very skillful artists that did some amazing, really look like tattoo work.  Mark: Yeah, I've seen some very beautiful, sigils and the, the, the important thing is to do it until it's done  Yucca: Hmm.  Mark: and you'll know it's done. When you feel like it's done.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: That's, that's the only way to tell, honestly, as I said, you don't need to use all of the letters, numbers, figures, whatever it is, you can just use the ones that strike your fancy. You can flip them upside down. You can make the mirror image. You can add additional embellishments that make the sigil look more mystical and cool. Or that look more Persuasive and compelling, whatever you think is effective for the creation of your sigil. And what I found when I started doing this is that my early ones were pretty perfunctory. I was just not as daring as I might've been in, in making changes. And they got a lot more extravagant as I practiced more. Yucca: But I did this past week was I did the letters. I actually, I wrote a sentence. Right. I figured out what my sentence was really focused on exactly what it was that I wanted. And I did this all in ritual. So thought about it a little bit beforehand, but then really refined it in ritual and took the first letters of each word. And used that to create the symbol. But I also create, I used some shapes as well, that weren't letters. So I used a circle and then made the letters make sort of the form looked almost like an eye. So like a Sur an eye within a circle because I was working on being able to return to a focus and centered, balanced. In the moment when I felt like I was being tugged in 20 different directions was okay. Let's, let's bring that back to the focus. And so I was trying to come up with what will, what will feel like that? What does that feeling look like in a symbol? And so the letters were a component, but just the shapes that the letters were making the shapes that the letters were contained. Yeah. Helps to facilitate that immediate return to that feeling.  Mark: Sure. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. I know that people will sometimes add like wavy lines for water or other, you know, other kind of elemental pieces as well, too. To sort of describe the feeling that they're working to evoke the emotion they're seeking to capture. Yucca: Right. I can imagine if someone works with a framework of the elements often that really associates like, okay, so air is mental. But, you know, the earth is ground or whatever it is, there are associations that you could use that as a starting place for that sigil or incorporate it. And Yeah. I did not work with color, but I think that some people could, if you are a color person, color is, is so powerful, right. Mark: Yeah.  So I was going to describe a process that I went through a while back with the atheopagan group, Saturday mixer group that gets together on zoom every Saturday morning. There was a poem by Robinson Jeffers that was read by a member of the group. And the last line of the poem really struck me. The line was for you also are human.  Yucca: Hm.  Mark: And so what I did was I took the first letter of each of those. Each each, the first letter of each word of that line and made that into a sigil. And that was about it. Self compassion and humility and understanding that I'm not always going to get it right. And I created that into a sigil and it turned out to be a very powerful kind of symbol for me. I, I I've kept it on my focus for close to a year now, I think. And and I've used it in rituals as well. Especially when. Working to address things that are challenges in my life, just to remember. It's okay. You don't have to be perfect.  Yucca: It's beautiful. It's a beautiful line too.  Mark: It is Robinson Jeffers. If you haven't read him his marvelous,  Yucca: Hmm.  Mark: a very, very strong conservationist out of the American west and yeah, just really recommend his stuff. Beautiful.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Okay. Yucca: let's circle back, maybe summarize about the creation of a sigil. So step wise, we said, figure out what your intention is, Right. And preferably in ritual, then create it, put, make it into something visual.  Mark: Right, Yucca: do the letters, maybe have symbols that represent the letters, but you can make it as involved and intricate as, as feels. Right. And as you were saying, mark, just keep going until it feels complete and done.  Mark: right. And while you're doing this, sorry to  Yucca: Oh, please continue.  Mark: But while you're doing this, bear in mind, what you're trying to do is to capture a particular emotion. What you're trying to do is to make a symbol that can help you to snap back into a particular emotional state. So play music that brings you that emotional state, while you're working on your sigil, you know, burn some incense that reminds you of a particular kind of feeling that you, that you have, or, you know, spray a little essential oil into the air or whatever it is that you do for scent. You can, you can turn this into a multi-sensory kind of experience that will help you. When you, when you start using the sigil out in the world, Yucca: Yeah. So for an example, sharing, what I would I did this past week was when I did that ritual actually went out clear stars, really beautiful moment. Created that had to use like a little red light so I could see it created that symbol. And then hung out in that ritual space with the symbol. Trying to be in that place of, of focus, which was what I was working on returning to and spent. I don't actually know how long it was because it was probably only four or five minutes, but it felt like a long time. And just really tried to connect the feeling of that symbol with that, with with that experience. And then it was later. It was a second time that I came back and actually put that as Hannah, because it didn't occur to me until after I had done it that maybe I shouldn't get henna.  Mark: That's a really clever idea. I like that a lot. Yucca: So yeah. I mean, you might, depending on how the skill that someone has with the henna you know, you might even do it on your body as you're creating.  Mark: Okay. Yucca: So, so that would be okay. Have that association form that association, whether it's with the, hopefully with as many things as you can to make it really work for you since the color, the, the ambiance, the music, if you're a musical person  Mark: Tastes and flavors that make that make you happy or remind, you know, maybe it's black coffee, maybe that. you of focus and attention and kind of diligence about pursuing whatever your goal is, or maybe it's chocolate and that's just sort of sensual pleasure, kind of happiness sort of feeling that you're trying to capture as many senses as possible. It's usually a good rule for rituals. Yucca: Yeah. You know, and, and as we're talking, it occurs to me that we've been doing, we've been focusing on this as a. solitary or singular thing, but this could be something that you're doing with a partner as well. If it's something that both of you or all of you, if it's more of that are working on together and maybe it's maybe you're in the process of moving or forming a new. Relationship or things like that, that you could use this in a lot of different ways and have that, that kind of special, powerful symbol between the two of you that represents whatever this goal or agreement it's arrangement is.  Mark: Right. Like if you're forming a household together for the first time, for example, you could create a sigil for, for, and health and all those things that you want to be a part of your household. And then that could be on the household, Walter along with other, you know, pictures of. Of the members of the household and other things that remind them of why they live together. Yucca: Hmm, that's really sweet. I could see that above a door too.  Like in the, the walking into the threshold of the house.  Mark: So that's a thing that you can do. You can put it on the dashboard of your car. If you're, if you have a problem with getting lost or if you.  Yucca: Get really angry with driving.  Mark: Yes. If you have a problem with road rage or, or if you have a habit of speeding, maybe something that will remind you to slow down a little bit and you know, pay a little more attention to what's going on around you. Yucca: Or confidence and comfort and maybe not having the overwhelming anxiety of that horrible feeling of, oh, I've got to merge. I've got to change lanes. I've got to. Got to drive. And by the way, driving in the part of the country that you live in, just sounds terrifying. Driving and in California, there's very aggressive and lots and lots of drivers there. So if you need help with driving in California, that could be a reason to really do a sigil.  Mark: It could, you could do a little outline of the state of California as a part of. Yucca: You're good. Yes. Or, you know, maybe a bubble of protection around your car or something like that.  Mark: Yeah, Yucca: I just teased though, you guys are great.  Mark: well, I mean, to be honest, I'm pretty happy about the area where I live in terms of how aggressive the drivers are. There are places like Silicon valley where the drivers credibly aggressive. You have lots of sort of young male drivers with really expensive cars who feel entitled to own the entire road. And they drive like maniacs. It's it's really frightening. Okay. Yucca: Yeah, folks. Aren't good drivers here, but there just aren't a lot of them, so,  Mark: Yeah. Well, that's good. If they're being really bad drivers, you just let them pass you and forget.  Yucca: that's right. Yeah. I'm just like, Okay, So anyways, so these are some, some ideas. What else could we say?  Mark: well, there's the question about using the CGM? Kind of visibly and publicly, or at least visible to yourself. And then there's the sort of secret sigil thing. Some people like to create a sigil with a particular meaning and then seal it somehow in an envelope or just folding over the paper with ceiling wax or you know, somehow. Keeping it hidden so that it's power becomes stronger because it's been hidden. That isn't something that I've done very much, but I like playing sealing, wax and seals. I just think it's really cool. So.  Yucca: It reminds me um, A girlfriend who was Japanese and she we weren't living there. We were living in an actually Bilbao, but she had these little envelopes. There were beautiful cloth envelopes from the temple in her village. And they had prayers inside that had been written by the priest at the temple. And. She said that if you opened it up, you let it go. I wouldn't, it wouldn't work anymore. So you always had to keep it sealed.  Mark: Hmm. Yucca: There was just that it, it made it really special to have that little sealed cloth envelope with the special not done. And that just seemed to give it this kind of. This feeling of importance and there was like the rules around it that just made it kind of fun. And I think that, that's what, that's what I think gave it the, you know, the power. So to say it was, is the belief around it, not necessarily that the actual marks of ink on paper did anything, but the way that she felt about it and the stories that she told about it. Right. Created that feeling. So that's what it reminds me of. When you say that to sealing it away with wax or putting it into an envelope.  Mark: Well, it's funny when you say that story, because I, I hear it in two different ways. On the one hand. Yes. It's very special to have the prayer enclosed in its little envelope, you know, with the special knots and all that kind of stuff. But. Another way that you could look at that is it's sort of like a, like a battery, like a store, a stored blessing of some kind. So when  Yucca: open it when you're ready.  Mark: you open it when you need it. Right. So,  Yucca: Oh yeah.  Mark: kind of cool. Huh? Yucca: I liked that. I might do something like that with the kids.  Mark: Yeah, I would think that would be a cool thing to do with kids. Cause it's like, if you're having a really bad day, maybe today's the data open, open your, your blessing packet and, you know, let a little goodness in.  Yucca: Yeah. Great. Mark: that. Yucca: Okay. Thanks for, for picking up on that. part. That's really special.  Mark: Yeah. Well, I'm always trying to think of new ways to do cool ritual stuff, you know, it's it's ritual is play for adults. In, in many ways we get to do stuff with all the cool toys and it's just, it's fun  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: and meaningful that's yeah. That's part of what makes it adult play as opposed to children's play, not the children's play isn't meaningful, but most of the meaning for children's play is about brains in development, you know, eye, hand coordination, and, you know,  Yucca: This figuring out how to human  Mark: Yes, exactly. All that kind of stuff. Whereas as adults, the introduction of meaning into our play makes it really significant and important to us. Yucca: Yeah. So we might have it being something that's public or private, but at some point it might be time to, the schedule might be done. There might be some that, that are never going to be done well within your lifetime. Right. But there might be others. Like the one that I worked with this week that, that it felt like it was something I needed for this week. So. I next step might be a releasing of that situation.  Mark: Okay. Yucca: Maybe it might fade away like how I did it with the henna. It just sort of faded away and I don't feel the need to formally release it or destroy the central or something like that. But there might it, depending on what your central is, there might be need for that is to create. Another ritual space and burn it or put it in the compost or erase it or replace it with another central, maybe renew it because sometimes things get stale, Right,  Mark: right, That, that thing that you see on your dashboard every day after a while, you won't see it anymore. Right. So, it may be. I don't know. I would consider putting it on my rear view window. I mean my rear view mirror so that, you know, a little, little piece of paper along the edge so that I could see it and it would continue to draw my attention. Yucca: Hang it right there. So it moves a little bit.  Mark: Huh. Yucca: you turn the car back up or yeah.  Mark: Although, apparently it's illegal to hang anything from your rear view mirror, and cops can pull you over for that, which is how a couple of young black men have been killed. So  Yucca: California thing. I mean, maybe Mark: I guess it  Yucca: on the state,  Mark: I guess it depends on the state. Yeah. Yucca: Yeah, in my state there, they're more worried about whether you have a license plate or not like you just cause your car street like it does it, is it safe? Do you have a license plate? My, my brother went east once and they pulled him over because the tent was too dark on his on his windows. So, Yeah. And I guess in a lot of states you have to have a drivers license plate on the front too, and not just the back.  Mark: Yeah. In California. Yucca: Yeah. So I think it's probably gonna depend on a lot of places, like on what state you're in you know, in, in the more rural places you probably won't have trouble with that, but in the the more urban areas, it seems like it would be likely that they're going to look for more, more issues. Mark: Huh, Yucca: And some states it's illegal to drive barefoot  Mark: it's illegal to drive barefoot in California. Yucca: Yeah. That doesn't make much sense to me. I can understand why say, you know, maybe don't drive in stilettos or something like that, but  Mark: Yeah,  Yucca: the,  Mark: that makes a lot more sense to me than the barefoot one. I don't know. I don't know what the problem with the barefoot one is. It might've been one of those kinds of anti hippie laws that got passed in the 1960s. It was just designed to target particular kinds of people. Yucca: Yeah. Or the logic of maybe if there's broken glass, you won't be able to push down far enough, but there shouldn't be broken glass under your pedals. So,  Mark: You would hope not. Yucca: yeah. Anyways, I don't know why we're we keep talking about driving today. Must be on my mind.  Mark: I don't know. So, so yeah, be creative in thinking of the ways that you can use these symbols in your life and in the world. One of the things that's really great about them is that you can make them really small and unobtrusive and you can keep them in places where they're hidden from other people that are, are going to ask questions that you don't want to answer. And it's a way of being able to kind of carry your magic with you. In on your day-to-day life. So it doesn't have to be just something that lives within your focus at home. It can be something that goes with you in your pocket. Yucca: So this could be a really good practice for folks who are living in a dorm situation, or we've talked about before that, you know, they live with parents who are. Really into a very different religion or very strict about what, you know, they want the kids in their household doing, or there are, you know, you've got an in-law or something like that, where it's, it doesn't have to look like anything more than a cool than like a really cool doodle, like a symbol, like, yeah, I really liked this symbol. Like I'm into drawing. You know, and yet to you, it can have a really the, the idea is that it has really important meaning,  Mark: Right. Yucca: and it's yours. It's yours.  Mark: Very essential. I mean, there are tons of sigils that can be copied out of various books and all that kind of stuff. And maybe you'll get some value out of that. I don't know. But to me it really matters that I create my sigils myself. They're unique to me. And that means that it's the only one in the world. You know, when I draw it and put it in my pocket or whatever it is, it's the only one like it in the world. Yucca: Yeah. So this is a really a really fun practice. So thank you for sharing this with me, mark. It's been, I've loved playing with it over the last couple of weeks and hope to do more.  Mark: I'm so glad. Yeah. I, I do think it's really fun and creative and I think one thing that we don't do very often in our ritual work is, is graphic kind of stuff, drawing and so forth. And this, this is something that anyone can do. You don't have to be a good artist. And I mean, I just think it's, it's a lot of fun and it can be a really powerful, effective, psychological practice as well. Yucca: Yeah,  Mark: Well, thanks so much for having another great conversation with me, Yucca. I really appreciate our conversations together and look forward to next weeks.  Yucca: likewise. Thanks mark.  Mark: All right. See you folks. Bye bye.  Yucca: Okay.

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S2E32 TRANSCRIPT: ----more----Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. My name's Mark.  Yucca: And I'm Yucca. Mark: And today we're talking about nature based paganism. What is nature-based paganism? What the point of nature-based paganism and how are, how can we, pursue a nature based practice as a part of, practicing our science-based pagan approach?  Yucca: That's right. And we'll get in a little bit to what is nature and why is that important as well? Mark: Right. Yeah. always the best first thing to do when you're talking about anything is to define the terms. So, we'll, we'll jump into that right away. when we first. Conceptualized this podcast, the idea was, you know, we are we're Earth oriented pagans. there are some folks who self identify as pagans who are not as focused on the Earth, who are focused on gods Or particular pantheons of bygone cultures that they're working to reconstruct or.  Yucca: magical practices or things like that. Mark: kinds of magical practices, certainly, or,  Yucca: The occult in general. Mark: yes, or work with, spirits that they. I believe they have influence over and can, you know, make arrangements with there's a lot of different ways of coming at this sort of broad umbrella of, practices that we call paganism. But we're very clear that we, like, I believe most pagans are really oriented towards the Earth, which means nature.  Yucca: Okay. Mark: The, the difference in our approach is that we are rooted in science and critical thinking. And therefore, rather than sort of a romantic kind of Bambi,  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Disney-fied sort of orientation to nature. We're really about the real nature. That's, that's here and out there and in our own bodies and very excited about all the, the manifestations of life here on Earth.  So that's, that's where we start from that. we are products of, and participants in. This tremendous complex, interesting, amazing, beautiful fabric that occupies planet Earth's biosphere sphere that comprises planet earth biosphere, really. and of course, therefore is also supported by the substrate of the rest of the universe. Right? All the, all the amazing physics of the rest of the universe.  Yucca: Yeah, we're part of a solar system. That's part of keep going up and up and up, you know, go past Laniakea to Cosmic Web and on. But I think that you said something really, really important that is that we are part of nature. I think that's a really, really important place to start because in our language we often talk about humans and nature. And we talk about things being natural versus human-made. And we create this line in this distinction, in our minds, which doesn't always serve us. And certainly in today's world, where many of us are living in. An urban centric society. Even those of us who aren't in an urban environment who live in a rural environment, our culture in our society is still very urban based in which we have really tried to strengthen and define that line of human versus nature. Now we've built a concrete wall and reinforced it with steel to try and say this were two different things. And yet we really, really aren't. And when we can start recognizing that our lives are very enriched. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. There's a lot to be said about where that line came from and where the romantic ideas of nature stem from. I mean the whole, the romantic movement of the late 18th into the early 19th century. Has a tremendous influence over not only our understanding of our relationship with the natural world, but also particularly the, the, the eventual development of modern paganism. You know, the idea of wild, beautiful nature outside of the city, as you know, something to be exalted. And, in many cases, emulated, if you look at some of the big romantics like Byron, for example, he thought that being kind of a rude, irresponsible, abusive wild man was, a way of reflecting his net, his natural state. Right. The truth is that even the modern environmental movement has been, has been rooted in a lot of that romanticism. And it's only in the past 20 years in my experience. And I've been working in environmental stuff or longer, much longer than that. Has begun to climb out of this kind of romantic idea of, of nature with a capital N equating to this sort of romantic good. And instead understanding it as a set of complex living systems that are interpenetrated with one another and whose. behavior and manifestations may be very beautiful and very interesting. they can also be very terrible and destructive and, still very interesting.  Yucca: Yeah.  And really all of that at once nature, isn't all. What is it? Red in tooth and claw.  Mark: Right,  Yucca: And, but it's also not all rainbows and butterflies, right? It's a, there's a combination going on there. so we feel that, I mean, I guess that it would be a little bit more pugnacious to say it this way, but we could have called this podcast. Reality-based paganism.  Yeah. Mark: Because that is certainly our intent. Our intent is to root our spiritual understanding and practice in the empirical objective nature of reality of the world that we live in of our nature, the nature of ourselves as homosapiens organisms, as the, observable phenomena that take place around us, that we are a part of the fabric of. And so even though it's really easy to get sucked into the romance of planet earth, because boy, you look at that, that blue marble photograph hanging out there in space. And it's pretty easy to want to cry. You know, it's just so beautiful, but it's important for us to, to, to go beyond that. You know, we can hold that in our hearts, but to go beyond that and really do what we can to encounter nature, to, to understand it as best we can and to find not only the big wonder in, you know, That pale blue dot hanging in a Sunbeam from as viewed from Saturn, but in the, the tiny miracles, the, the, the never ending list of tiny miracles that comprise nature and earth, nature and life here. honor.  Yucca: Okay. Mark: So that's what this episode is about. This episode is about, Kind of getting a handle on what do we need? I mean, when we say that we're a nature based religion and then how can we best make that more real, make that more true for ourselves and for the way that we live our lives, because I can say for myself, it's enormously satisfying to do so. it brings, just a deep abiding sense of, of joy. to feel so connected to what we are and where we come from and what makes us.  Yucca: Yeah. And in addition to that joy, also some very practical health. Differences when we are connecting in with the, with what our bodies are built for, so that fresh air and that sunlight and all of that stuff that now is getting, we were talking about before we started recording is actually getting prescribed to people, right? You go for your forest bay, they ignore your time on the beach or whatever it is. Mark: right, right. Which to, some people sounds really silly. There's a reason why people go to the beach. There's a reason why people go for wa for hikes in the woods. I mean, when you think about it in, in the true abstract, why would any organism do that? Burn calories for no reason, other than to be in a particular place and then burn more calories packing up and going home. And the answer is. that it does real stuff for us, real beneficial stuff that we can feel in our bodies. And that's why we go hiking. It's why we go to the beach. It's why we go to beautiful places in nature on vacation, because that natural beauty. Means something, it has an impact on us, organically, not just, not just on our minds, but on our actual physical beings, which remember, as we've said over and over again are the same thing.  Yucca: Yeah. Okay. Mark: So another thing that I can say about this is that. Getting connected in with nature also kind of helps us with our, our value priority. when we understand ourselves as part of a greater whole and as part of concentric circles of greater wholes, meaning not just families, but societies, not just societies, but entire ecosystems, not just entire ecosystems, but systems stretching out beyond the plant. All the way to those, you know, very, very large structures, beyond the galaxy, beyond the supercluster, part of what that can do for us is it can help us to get our priorities straight around what we think is important and what's worth fighting for. one thing that the atheopagan path that I follow is very explicit about is that we consider activism to be. An integral part of what we do because we have responsibility to one another. And so whether it's as little as simply voting when the time comes to do that, or whether it's a lot more in terms of contacting representatives that are going to make decisions, talking with other people about how we feel about things working to make the world a better, kinder, more sustainable, more, More happy place, becomes something that is not arbitrary, but he's a natural outgrowth of our understanding of where we are And who we are. as humans. Yucca: And that can come from or be supported by the relationship with our environments.  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: So, and. On the one hand, you know, learning on a very intellectual level about how these things work and what we're finding out. And the latest research that is that's powerful on the one hand, but just having the actual relationship, the experience with, with our environments with nature. So to say, can. Really strengthened that. Mark: Yes, because you look with some with, with markedly different eyes, when you have that, that understanding, and you look at a tree, for example, and I hate even to say a tree because it's so generic, I'd rather, you know, stipulate some particular kind of tree, like a maple tree. Right? Well, here's an organism. Rooted in the ground, where, from which it's drawing water and nutrients, and it's doing kind of a dance with a whole bunch of microorganisms in order to get its needs met and to meet the needs of those microorganisms as well. And then it, it deploys solar panels all over itself. And charges itself up every day. Turn in many cases, turns those panels in order to follow the sun, as it moves across the sky. I mean, this is a remarkable thing. This is something that humans have figured out how to do in a, in a limited capacity only in the past 20 years.  Yucca: And in working with its neighbors can actually literally change the weather  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: it.  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: So releasing VOC that ended up becoming cloud condensing, nuclei, and increasing the rain and changing the temperature on the ground, which then changes the way that the local wind patterns are working. Like all kinds of just incredible interactions. Mark: Right. Right. And the more we understand about that, the more remarkable it becomes. And so it's not just the, the romantic appreciation of the fact that it also happens to be breathing out pure oxygen, which is something that we find useful.  Yucca: Yes. Mark: And, and also, processing carbon dioxide, which is something that we find less useful. but that it's, it's going through all of these extraordinary processes at every level of its existence, underground above ground, and then kind of in the canopy, above the surface of the ground, and its relationship with the atmosphere. And that's just a tree. This is one tree.  Yucca: Yeah. Now let's start talking about the lichen growing on that tree. And the mycelium connecting it to another one and on and on and  Mark: communities of animals that depend on. its seeds, for nourishment and its branches for various kinds of shelter and nesting opportunities. And, Yeah. the. There's a reason why there are certain kinds of species in different biomes that we refer to as Keystone species, because they are so essential to the living creatures that live in those areas where I am. It is the California live Oak. because if you removed all the California live Oaks from this place, we would have an ecological crash. Unlike any that we've seen so far in this local region, because of the dependency of so many organisms on that particular species of tree.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: So all of this is very cool and, we should not undersell the, The overlap between the spiritual impulse and the very cool factor, you know, part, part of the reason why we feel moved spiritually by things is because they're amazing. They're just, they're so extraordinary, that they, they give us a big emotional. Jolt just by realizing them. And that's true of every religion. I mean, if you believe that Jesus died to what, whatever to, you know, mitigate our failings, then that's kind of amazing. I mean, if you believe that you have these inherent sin and that you've been accumulating more of them ever since you arrived on the planet. but that this death 2000 years ago, wipes it all out. As long as you say the right words and believe them in your heart. That's amazing. I mean, I don't believe it at all, but if it were true, it would really be amazing.  Yucca: Well, and it still has the same emotional impact if you believe at whether it's true or not in terms of the emotional impact, right? Mark: Yes, exactly. So, but the reason why I said we could have called this podcast, reality-based big aneurysm is that nature is real  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: nature exists. We are nature. There isn't anything that isn't nature and,  Yucca: So even when we put in the roads, even when we build our foundations and our buildings and all of that, that's not locking the nature out. nature is still, I mean, it, it is what it is, we're changing it, but that's also what we do as animals that are part of this.  Mark: Yes,  Yucca: And we're not the first ones,  Mark: no.  Yucca: architecture, farming, warfare, all these things that we like to think of as being only human, we might do it in a very unique human way, but these things have been around for millions of years. Mark: Yes. mostly by ants. Yucca: Yes. And so I've been doing all of those things, some other kinds of creatures too, but answer, just answer amazing.  Mark: They are really, They're really amazing. And so one of the. Approaches one of the orientations that can be really useful as we pursue nature-based paganism is to understand ourselves as part of nature. And so if you do live in a big city, look around, look at all the structures that have been constructed by this particular kind of organism and these amazing machines and, and communication devices and all this stuff. It it'll give you a renewed appreciation for just how amazing humans are in the romantic view. It's often nature versus humans, right? And you have to pick a side. You either you're either with nature and therefore kind of anti-human or you're with the humans and nature is always trying to kill you. And so you want to control it and tame it and. reduce its its power, which good luck with that. but a, in a more factually correct approach, Yucca: Integrated. Mark: an Integrated. it's an integrated approach and all of it is nature. And so understanding ourselves as natural creatures can help to fill us with wonder at the Marvel of what we are. Because humans are extraordinary organisms,  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: extraordinary organisms. They're they're unlike anything that we are familiar with anywhere in the universe, in terms of what we do, what we're capable of, we are just these really, really remarkable critters.  Yucca: Yeah. And there's some pretty incredible creditors and other life forms that we partner with on, without even realizing it. Talking about the urban environment. I don't recall the professor's name at the moment, but put forth the idea where basically he was looking at the urban environment and this species that tend to come along with us in an urban environment. So thinking about your, rats and pigeons and Dan D lions and things like that, and noticing that these are almost all species that come from. Caves or the entrances to caves  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: and noticing that there's a, there's a lot of parallels there between our architecture and who comes along with us and what systems we end up building that, that create environments for these other creatures that we actually live symbiotically. Right.  Mark: Hm.  Yucca: And the symbiosis doesn't just have to be mutualistic symbiosis, right? We've got parasitic and commensal relationships if commensal actually even exists. the idea that one organism isn't effected by the other organism as a, as a hard sell.  Mark: Yes.  but that, that our urban environments are these really special. Yucca: Environments and some of the functions might be a little bit broken compared to other systems where you might the resource cycling. When I say broken, that's what I'm talking about. Not that any moral judgment on it, but on its functional. what is it actually doing? Some of those systems might be a little bit broken, but they're still, there's still a beauty and wonder in that and we're still. Part of it. All of our biological functions are still going on whether or not we acknowledge them. Mark: Sure. Sure. I mean, the disadvantage that humans have is that because we do things so quickly. We don't have the advantage of thousands or millions of years of slow evolution in order to balance the efficiencies of the system. Right? So we have huge mounds of waste that we. Have any real way of processing, right? We have, pollutants of various kinds that, can cause various impacts that we find, disadvantageous not only to ourselves, but also to the natural world. And we don't, we haven't figured out how to solve them.  Yucca: we as individuals live for such a short period of time. From an ecosystem's perspective that we don't clock that, that something's not right.  Mark: Right.  Yucca: Right. Many of us are living in incredibly degrading ecosystems that are very, very sick, that are missing huge pieces that they evolved with. But to us it's just normal because we don't remember. Right. We don't remember the megafauna or we don't remember whatever it is.  Mark: You know, I,  Yucca: don't yeah. Mark: you know, I can say though that in my own lifetime, I have seen the crash of the insects and I've seen a dramatic decline in the number of birds. Just just from the time when I was a child to now observationally, I can see it. when I was a kid, when you traveled your windshield got covered with insects and you had to clean it off every couple of hundred miles, and that's just not the case anymore. the sheer density of organisms of that sort is, has crashed.  Yucca: Yeah. And we're worth different ages, but even within my lifetime, I've recognized that in my area. Mark: Yeah, so. You know, one of, one of the problems that humanity has is that, in many ways we're not very grown up, but, I have a friend who's,a land conservation professional. Who's worked in various kinds of environmental protection for a long time. And she refers to, to humanity as a toddler with a gun. not really understanding the capacity of the damage that we can do, and just sort of staggering around and shooting,  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: but all that uplifting stuff said, are still pretty incredible and we are also many of us. Inclined to try to repair the damage and to reach new balance with the, the, the balance of the natural world that we are a part of. And that is very much to our credit because. It's entirely possible that we could be intelligent creatures that just didn't care and would just drive our way into extinction. And maybe we are that may, maybe, maybe that is going to happen, but I don't believe it. Yucca: I don't either. Mark: I think humans are far too adaptable And nature is tough. Yucca: And I, I understand the impulse to throw up one's hands and say, oh, humans were just to cancer where it's just terrible. And I'm going to, I'm just going to bury my head in my phone and look at my tick talk or whatever, and just ignore it and just hate on humans. But that, to me, that's not. Rewarding. Like, it might be easier in some ways, but,  Mark: Okay.  Yucca: but it's missing out on a lot. It is missing out on a lot on the one hand, particularly because misanthropy means that you're, you're throwing out all of the amazing stuff that humans do, that, you know, the art and the dance and the music and the architecture and the technology, and just all, all of The extraordinary, extraordinary things that we do that are really worthy of appreciation. The friendship with, with your dog? Mark: yeah, well, there's a 50,000 year relationship.  Yucca: Yeah, Mark: that's that one's been going on for a long time. people, well, wonder why there are so many different kinds of dogs? Well, it's because we've been breeding them for various particular purposes for a super long time and continue to do so for various appearance traits. yeah, Yucca: yeah. Corgi just means short dog. They are, Welsh and there's a lot of sheep and whales and they're hurting dogs and they got short so that they wouldn't get kicked in the head. Cause you know, you don't get to breed quite as much and have pups when keep getting kicked in the head. But if you're just underneath the height being kicked by sh by, some sheep, then you survive longer. Mark: That's funny,  Yucca: why we have, and now of course, people like the look, so they make them even shorter and longer and all of that. But originally short dogs were just because they were short, they didn't get kicked. Mark: Sure, sure. Yeah. and You know, you look at Huskies and Newfoundlands and stuff like that, or. Dragging dogs and you know, the various kinds of border terriers and border collies that are used for various sorts of. You know, hurting, and then you've got all the terriers and other sort of rat catchers and kind of pest control dogs. you know, none of that happened by accident. All of that happened because there were particular needs that humans had and dogs were able to fulfill that role in humans, worked to make the dogs as adapted to those particular needs as possible. I mean, you think about a doctor. DocSend means Badger hound and they were designed to dig into holes in the ground. Mark: So they're long and skinny and go in and get badgers. Yucca: You know, as we're talking about this, I wonder we were talking about it from this very human perspective of, you know, how did the dogs change to fit us? I wonder if anyone has ever looked into, how did we change to fit our canine companion? Mark: Well, there are certainly several, human traits that. Strongly lean towards attraction to animals that have, you know, big brown eyes and they're sort of, you know, positioned mostly on the front of their heads so that it looks more like a human face. you know, we, we have, we have this whole off factor that we, that we have when it comes to babies, puppies, kittens, baby seals, raccoons, there's all kinds of. All kinds of that. And I'm sure that some of that was strengthened as we built relationships with dogs over time.  Yucca: yeah. Which that, that attraction to the, I can tell you as a parent that exists so that we keep taking care of the, of our offspring, because. Sometimes they're really real tough to take  Mark: Oh yeah.  Yucca: right there. I mean, you're just like, oh my goodness, you will not stop screaming at me. Why am I risking my life? Because you're just so cute. I can't help it.  Mark: Right. Yeah. And there's this  Yucca: our ancestors who didn't have that, well, their offspring didn't make it.  Mark: right, right.  Yucca: That's gotta be way prehuman. Mark: Sure. And there's this cascade of, of hormones and neurotransmitters that reinforces that whole. Sense, which is why other people's kids can be infuriating, but your kids are the most wonderful thing in the world. Yeah. Well, you know, this is, this is the way of things and this of course gets us into trouble when you have mixed families, because you have, you know, the so-called evil stepmother phenomenon, right. Because. The one that is not an actual blood parent of this child, doesn't have that cascade of hormones and neurotransmitters, and doesn't feel the same way about the child that, that others do, some do some don't. And So that, you know, can create, a sense of abandoned mentor or a hard relationship. Yucca: So it's going to say that we went a little far afield from our topic, but we actually didn't. This is all talking nature. Yeah. Mark: it's, it's all it. Well that, that's the thing about talking about nature is that there's nothing you can talk about that isn't dead,  Yucca: Yeah, except for the fictitious or purely theoretical.  that's, what's one of the things just vocabulary. That's always bothered me about the supernatural. What, how could supernatural possibly exist if nature is everything that is  Mark: Right,  Yucca: right. That just means we don't understand. Or, you know, beyond the laws of physics. Okay. Well that just means that our laws are wrong. Mark: Yeah, or incomplete.  Yucca: Yeah. and this is actually an argument that's made by fists and, and so-called supernaturalist pagans within the pagan community is, oh, no, no, it's not supernatural. It's just stuff we don't understand yet. I always come back to Ockham's razor, which is that the simplest explanation is, the most likely one to be true. Mark: And so if you heard a God say something to you, the odds are much better than that generated inside your brain, then that an actual disembodied intelligence with magical powers said it to you. but that's an argument for another day. Yucca: that is, yes. Why don't we circle back and talk about some things that people can do too, to build or strengthen that relationship with Nick. Mark: Okay, that sounds great. I mean, we did an episode back in may called pay attention. And I think that that's really kind of the core principle of all of this. And in order to pay attention, you need to not only paying attention is it's actually a very well-crafted term because there's an expenditure of effort and the bandwidth of your consciousness. That's required in order to successfully pay attention. If you're just cruising along, looking at your phone or listening to the radio and driving, and you're not carving out, at least part of your sensorium to be paying attention to what's happening in nature around you, then. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I mean, you're always going to miss some of it anyway, because a lot of it's microscopic a lot of it's happening at timescales that you can't really perceive, but Yucca: you're saying one thing, you might not be able to be seeing the other thing. Yeah. Mark: yes. So there are always choices, but the easiest way to be better at paying attention to nature is to make time for it. Don't try to split your time between doing, saying, well, I have a beautiful drive on my commute home, so that's my nature time. Well, that's great. And if you're really appreciating the aesthetics of nature as you drive home, that's a, that's a good thing. That's food for the soul, but that isn't the same thing as actually just sitting for five or 10 minutes and. Watching the sun go down or  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: observing one of those trees or an anthill or, raccoons nesting under your house, which happened to me once or, or whatever it happens to be pigeons, pigeons, wandering around on the sidewalk, interacting with one another and, you know, looking for, for food. There's a lot to be seen and you'll be surprised at how there's a, there's, there's a sense of joy that can come from that kind of observation, just, just from taking the time and paying attention for a little while.  Yucca: Yeah. And, and really making it about that. Taking out the headphones, leaving your phone either in your pocket or better yet in the house. You know, if you're not needing to be on call for an emergency or something like that. And, and really, really setting that time aside to, to be present. So not as, not as a moment. That's important too, right? Taking that time to close your eyes and go in yourself and really self-reflect. But, but to open your eyes and look around and maybe let that transition between what you're experiencing is self and outside. Let that start to blend in your mind a little bit in your awareness as you take it. What what's around you and reserve the judgment. If you're seeing the, the ants moving around on the driveway or whatever, it is, just, just hang out with that. and, and you were touching on this as well marked, but, but making it, That dedicated time, maybe even literally scheduling it in, makes it more part of the routine. So part of the routine to tune in, to opening our eyes, to pay attention, and this could take different forms we've shared on here before some of our own practices. I do a star time, and. So at least twice a day, going out and being present. and of course, sunset and sunrise, the time is always changing every day, but that's also really amazing if he can build that into your schedule and then you're, and then you're noticing those changes. If, when, you know, where's the sunsetting and rising from and the, how is the moon different each day? And, oh, look, you're seeing it. It's the middle of the day, because remember the moon's out in the daytime half of the time. It's not just at the night. Can you, when, can you see that? Or when did the birds start talking in the morning before the sun comes up for most of them, but not all of  Mark: it is.  Yucca: Right? Listen, who's talking. Before Dawn and who's talking after it. Mark: If you have. Like a bird feeder sitting and watching the bird feeder And watching the interactions of the birds at the bird feeder, is amazing. It's really cool. And, if you're interested, you can get, a guide and learn what the different species of birds are that are coming to your, to your bird feeder. but that isn't, that isn't obligate Tori. you can just appreciate them as birds. Without knowing the particular details of how they operate, which is a broad range of different sorts of behaviors. that, that bird species have, I mean, think about it. The difference between a hummingbird and an emo,  Yucca: yeah. Yeah. Completely. This wildly different. Mark: right? I like emos they're dinosaurs.  Yucca: Yeah. They're all dinosaurs.  Mark: Yeah.  we were looking at pictures of. Hummingbird nests and hummingbird hatchlings. So if you're looking for a little like emotional, pick me up at some time at some point, just look up how adorable this little, absolutely tiny little naked hummingbird chicks are.  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: little ITI creatures. huh.  Yucca: Anyways, but yeah, and the different species have their different behaviors, but different individuals do too. And even though a lot of them look very similar, if you're coming back to the same spot with the same population of birds, with enough observation, you can start to. You can start to recognize individuals based on their behavior. How are they interacting with each other? Is there that one that is always just a little extra aggressive, you know, it was always pushing them off and the birds do that anyways, but you know, or is there the one that trusts you a little more, that doesn't care that you're nearby or all of those things. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. And, in some really interesting cases, you can, You can develop relationships with some of them. my friend Lexi, has crows. They kind of follow her around and they bring her tiny things. that's pretty cool. I mean, you've, you've, I need them for a while and they decide, well, all right. You're one of us. And a part of what we do amongst ourselves is we bring shiny things. So here have a piece of glass.  Yucca: Corvids are amazing.  Mark: They are.  Yucca: There, can be stinkers too.  Mark: Oh  Yucca: good memory. And if you piss them off they'll they'll remember.  Mark: Yes, they will.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So, I guess, to sort of wrap this episode up, the thing that we're encouraging is first of all, that you build a relationship with nature nature, as it actually is nature, as it encompasses the entirety of what we experience, because we are part of it. And our works are a part of it, as well as, all the extraordinary. Examples of what is not human that move through our lives all the time, even in the city. Yucca: Mm. and in order to do that, you have to make. You have to decide that as a part of your practice, you're going to carve out that five minutes a day or 10 minutes a day or whatever it is. And it is immensely rewarding to do so. Mark: Sometimes at first it seems like, well, nothing happened and I'm not sure why I'm going to keep going with this. some of that is because you haven't really learned to see. And some of it is because, you know, you may just not have had luck that day. There may not have been a lot going on. So if you keep a journal  Yucca: Okay. Mark: of what you've observed,what's the word for that? A phonology journal, I think, Yucca: Okay. Just to see what you've observed. Just jot down what you've observed. Okay. Mark: Three candidate geese flew across the sky. there's a trail of ants across the sidewalk. the grass is turning brown. even, even just those simple, simple kinds of things. You'll find that if you continue with this practice, the list will get lost. You'll be noticing a lot more things and over time you'll notice. Well, Okay. The grass, the grass got really, really brown, but then after the first rain, all this new grass started coming in  Yucca: Hmm. Mark: and you hear a part of that process. All of a sudden, you, you are an observer of, of this change. That's happening, the changing of the guard among the ground. Individuals, the individual, the individual organisms may have died, but they germinated in their new seeds. And now that there's some water to feed them, uh they're they're now replacing the ones that died. and that's a profound thing. When you think about it, the, the generational change of a whole set of organisms.  Yucca: And also how our small little actions that we might not think anything. Might influence that and be a part of that. Right. Did you leave a chair out and did the grass not die under that chair where it was a little bit shaded as to sun was the summer sun was beating down on it or all of these different things that, that are little, little actions to us that just help highlight our connection to the whole community. Mark: Right, right, exactly. Because feeling connected with everything is the root of the spiritual impulse, you know, having an understanding of what our place is in the universe, what we're doing here, what we're a part of. All of that is really all inspiring and it can come through little moments, not, it's not just, you know, the sort of earth shattering coming around the corner and seeing the grand canyon for the first time kind of experience. It's also the little things, the little changes over time. And being aware that we are a part of all of this, and we were evolving eater internally, as well as, you know, in the same way that everything external to us is going through its process and changing and dying and growing and reproducing and doing all that stuff.  Yucca: So we hope you have the opportunity to set that time aside. Mark: Yes, I think you'll find it really rewarding if you, if you give it a shot. and I know how it is. We're all very busy, but five minutes is five minutes, you know, it's, if we choose not to take five minutes, it's because we choose not to take five minutes. It's not that we don't actually.  Yucca: And if you're too busy for the five minutes, you probably really need those five minutes. Maybe take 10. Mark: Exactly. Exactly. If you don't have time for five minutes, take 10.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Cause you really, you get, you know, get off your feet and,  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: look around.  Yucca: Once again. Thank you, mark.  Mark: Thank you. Yucca wonderful conversation with you. Thank you so much. We'll see you next week on the wonder science-based paganism.

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S2E30 TRANSCRIPT: ----more---- Mark: Welcome back to the wonder science-based paganism. I'm your host Mark. Yucca: And I'm Yucca. Mark: And today we're going to talk about re-enchantment of the world. Of the, the story of our lives. And this is a little complicated. So we're going to describe kind of what the problem is first and then talk about approaches for making that better and why we would choose to do that.  Yucca: Yes. And there's a lot of layers to this. So we'll try and get into that from the different directions.  Mark: Yes. One of the things that makes this a little bit challenging to talk about is that we are so accustomed to the way our mainstream culture approaches living That it's hard for us even to imagine that there are other ways to do it. It's sort of this thing that's kind of almost out of your reach and you sort of grasp for it. And, and we have some examples that'll sort of concretize that for you going forward. But but first let's talk about why, what is this and, and why is it a problem? Yucca: Yeah, well, we started young. Many of you probably can remember being told as a child. Well, when you get to the real world, Things aren't fun anymore. You think, you know, things are rainbows and butterflies or whatever it is that you were into. Well, that's not like it in the real world. It doesn't matter in the real world, this world of, of taking everything super seriously and doing things that you don't want and kind of the idea that everything sucks. That was, you know, and I, my parents weren't perfect. Harsh on that, but that was the message that came from everywhere.  Mark: Sure. Sure. It's important for us to recognize that that's not just a matter of growing up and putting away childish things, although that is, you know, that's, that's in the Bible, they tell you to do that. And and that certainly is a big part of this, but until the Protestant reformation. A lot of this was not true. I mean, when you, when you look at the written histories under the Roman Catholic church, throughout the middle ages, into the early Renaissance people's descriptions of the life around them was very mystical. They had demons and, and spirits and You know, mystical creatures and, and there are a lot, there's lots of debate about what that actually means, but those people clearly lived in a world that they believed was populated by a lot of, kind of amazing and fantastical stuff. Yucca: Or at least they saw more personality and things that today we might just ignore, pass off.  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: Right there. There, there might be more. Anthropomorphizing of experiences and, and phenomenon like wind or things like that.  Mark: Sure and events, you know, if you prayed to a particular Saint for a particular thing and it happened well, then there was this mystical component of the world that was causing these, these kind of amazing things. And we're not by any means suggesting that we fall into. You know, and irrational superstition where we're a science-based pagan podcast. Right. But that doesn't mean that the magical quality of life can't be cultivated and use to sort of reinvigorate our understanding of the enchantment of what it means to be alive. Under the. of Protestant framework that dominates certainly the United States and I, I think many other parts of the English speaking world. Fun is something that is viewed with deep suspicion. The, you know, the, I don't remember who it was, who said it, it might've been Churchill, but he said something about Protestantism being informed by the deep suspicion that someone somewhere may be having a good time.  Yucca: Shame on them for that,  Mark: Shame on them for that, what frivolity and you know, what they should be doing is putting their nose to the grindstone and, you know, working hard for the glory of God. So. When we were talking before we started recording, what we were talking about is that there are opportunities for us to take this problem of the denaturing of our lives. Well, you know, I gotta get up in the morning and then I go to work and then when I'm done with work, then I come home and I've got chores to do and dah, dah, dah, and to. Live in that up with more of a sense of wonder and enthusiasm and and kind of mystery because specifically, because it's more fun because it's more enjoyable and it feels more like an adventure to approach your life that way. Yucca: And it also stretches it out. So now it seems like every year is faster. Than the year before everything just keeps going by. You know, when we are teenagers, the idea of being in high school for four years, my goodness four years was forever, but moving into young adulthood, adulthood, you know, I haven't gotten to my older years yet, but I'm told that it feels like it goes faster and faster and faster.  Mark: Much much faster. Yucca: a lot of that has to do with, they're not with sameness. Your experience of the world of everything is just the same all the time. Your routine is exactly the same. You're not experiencing new things that it all blurs together. But when that wonder is in there, when the new things for your mind to learn for your body to experience, then. That's what lets time slow down a little bit. That's what lets you be and breathe in, in the moment of existence that you are and are in.  Mark: Yes. Yes. And that's why vacations are so memorable and so enjoyable because we go somewhere else and everything that we experienced is new.  Yucca: Hm.  Mark: So there's novelty and our, our minds, instead of just sort of skipping over it saying, I've seen this a bunch, I don't need to really track what's going on. Our minds, suck up all this novelty, all the new experiences and textures and colors and shapes and all that good kind of stuff. Yucca: Damn.  Mark: So. Being able to sort of vacation eyes,  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: our daily experience a little bit is beneficial for us. And it's not just that it makes things more enjoyable and fun. It's also that it can help us to overcome blockages that we have to getting things done that feel like they're just. Tedious Drudge work that we just dread getting done. If we can reframe that, if we can change the way that we look at that and tell ourselves a different story about it, it may make it easier for us actually to surmount that issue. And so the. I, I first came to thinking about this. We were talking in the Saturday mixer this morning. The atheopagan community has a zoom mixer on Saturday mornings. And a woman Addie brought up a mean that she had read that was about this process of Rayanne chanting your life. And it's. It said, you're not just going to the CVS. You're going to the apothecary to look over the potions. You're not just feeding the birds, you're making an Alliance with the Crow queen. And I was just delighted by this mean, because. All that it says is that it just depends on the story. You tell yourself. If you tell yourself the story that you're doing, a meaningless chore that you have to do over and over again, then that is the emotional experience that you will get out of it. But if you reframe things in more of an adventurous kind of way, then you can have a much more colorful, fun. Enjoyable pleasurable life. And of course, that's we go back to this again and again, what we're in this for is a very pleasurable life where we can be effective and we can leave the world a better place. Yucca: Yeah. And once you're in that space, you know, using the, going to the drug store example, when you're already in that playful space, what you're, how you're going to experience and what else you're going to notice in those moments is probably going to be very different than the. That I've got to do these chores. I've got to go out in the world and and we've got to wear a masks again and all the, you know, whatever the, the, the grumpy talk on our heads. And that's all we all we experience instead of the, all of the sites and experiences and sounds. And the funny little things, there are so many things that are. Just really humorous. Would you stop and actually look at them, the puns on bottles and the interaction between the, the crows and the pigeons. Right. And all of that is just amazing. And here we are.  Mark: Right. And so once again, that brings you back to this core principle that we've talked about many times, which is about paying attention, right? It's about really being as engaged as we possibly can with the life that's happening around us and with the, the moments of our existence we only get this life and if we sleepwalk through it, then we miss it. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: if we change up the story that we have to ourselves about what it is that we're doing, when we're doing those tasks that have to be done, then it can be a lot more. Thrilling really you know, the end of, at the end of the day, you can tell yourself, well, I went on a quest and I got shampoo and groceries, and there are probably better ways to describe shampoo and groceries that are even more adventurous, but I'm not thinking of them right now. I got a potion for the anointment of my head  Yucca: Okay.  Mark: that improves my charisma. Yucca: Yeah. Yeah. And, and just giving ourselves permission to be playful in that world, in that way. Right, And to say that, okay. You know, the world, the quote, unquote, real world. I experience, not what somebody else is saying it should or shouldn't be, but what do I want it to be?  Mark: right,  Yucca: And even, even if we aren't going as far as to rename things which I think is delightful, right. The potion of anointment for, for your head or your scalper, whatever it is. But, but just being able to. To have that awareness and playfulness is so empowering  Mark: Okay. Yucca: how we normally are taught to think and behave.  Mark: Yes. Yes. There are, of course, a lot of people out in the world, you know, people that are suffused with the over culture whose position on this will be well, you're, you're acting crazy or you're you're just making up fanciful stories about things that aren't very interesting, but the truth is there's nothing wrong with that. Or there was never anything wrong with it. The expectation that you should be dry and humorless is something that was given to us by people like John Calvin and Martin Luther. And that's not the only way that a society can operate. One of the things that we see in many indigenous societies is that often people are very playful. They play with language, they play games, they gamble, they do all kinds of just sort of. Playful stuff in the course of going through the daily routines of their lives. And that doesn't mean that it's frivolous. It means that they have found ways to live in enjoyment and we, we can learn from other people who have. Have not, you know, swallowed this potion of grimness from the from the, the mainstream society and who expect everything to be about taxes and mortality and aging and dust collecting and having to vacuum again So, so that, that really is what we're talking about here. It's the ability to reframe our thinking about our lives in a way that brings more of a sense of joy and wonder and adventure to it. Understanding of course, that we're not encouraging people to become delusional. Right. You know, we but, but for practical purposes, there really isn't any difference between a potion of anointment of your scalp and shampoo. It's just, one of them is a lot more fun. Yucca: Yeah, there's another element in here. Talked about before, but when we're thinking about that reframing there's other things that we could bring in that also can really help our quality of life and our joy, like the gratitude that going and getting your potion of anointment that, you know, that. Do that in the first place that you had the financial resources that you have the transportation, or if you're ordering it for somebody, who's going to bring it to you through a delivery service. Like, wow. How amazing is that? Mark: Yeah, Yucca: Despite the problems that we can get into things with the gig economy and all of that, there are some really amazing sites.  Mark: absolutely. There certainly are. And and what this enables us to do is to be. More in a relationship of gratitude with things that may seem ordinary and pedestrian. When you say I'm going to go to the store and get some shampoo, well, that sort of assumes that it's a normal thing to just go to a store. The store is always there. The shampoo's always, there you go. You get the shampoo big deal.  Yucca: And you're running water at home.  Mark: Yes. And you have running water at home and on and on, on the other hand, if you have this sense that this potion is going to improve your charisma and help with your self esteem and a bunch of other stuff, how amazing that something like that is actually available on the shelf. And you have a variety of choices of different kinds that you can pick from in order to. Well with whatever your particular head is like, and then you can, and you can choose from them and take it home and experiment. All, Yucca: would you like to be more strawberry or a little bit more coconut today?  Mark: yes.  Yucca: Or maybe Musk?  Mark: Right. So. It, there's definitely a gratitude component to this. I, I, I think that, you know, a major part of the reason why people might want to start reframing some of these things that they don't, that they take for granted and don't consider it to be very exciting is because it enhances our capacity to find gratitude for the circumstances of our lives. Yucca: Okay.  Mark: So I was thinking about this recently in this morning in relation to my job search. My previous job ended on under circumstances that I'm really unhappy about, and I feel very stung and very hurt and angry and and betrayed. Because of that. And what that has added up to is that I have been unable to get myself to do any of the things that I need to do in order to start pursuing a new one, because I just don't want to think about it. It's just  Yucca: Mm.  Mark: me all worked up. Right. So, We were talking in this, this mixer on zoom this morning. And one of the people there mentioned the resume as a plus for scroll of charisma and persuasion, and that just rang all my bells. It was so exciting. It was like, yes, that's exactly what it is. It's a scroll of charisma and persuasion. And I, and I can, I can approach the creation of something like that. In a very different way than reworking my resume because that's what you have to do. You know, I can use some kind of magical components to that. I can burn incense while I'm working on it. I can listen to my ritually music while I'm doing that. There's, there's a lot of things that I can do to not only. Enhance the experience of doing it, but to make it a lot more possible for me to break through that barrier so that I can do it.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: So there are practical benefits to this approach to living. It's not just that it's more fun, which I should say is a practical benefit. That's not a frivolous benefit. That's a real benefit.  Yucca: On so many levels. It's that? It's the, it's the start of that ripple. Yeah,  Mark: Yeah, but also just sheerly in the, in the pragmatic question of whether the task gets done or not. And so, and, and I'll be the first to say, this is a new concept to me and I, I'm excited about. And I can also see that it's going to be a bunch of work for me to start doing this reframing and getting into the habit of looking at things, particularly things that I'm sort of dreading in a manner of framing them as adventurous and kind of mystical and, and cool rather than drudgery or something that I'm afraid of or  Yucca: Yeah,  Mark: forth. Yucca: no, it's a shame. We're not doing this. Right around tax season, because that would be a wonderful one.  Mark: Well, maybe we can revisit it in  Yucca: should Yeah, Mark: Yeah, Yucca: Gathering all of your ingredients and mixing them together in the right. way. And hopefully getting money back would be the ideal part.  Mark: That's right. Yes. Once again, a scroll and persuasion. Yes. No, really. It all adds up. You owe me money, Yucca: Yes, I don't owe you any, everything is fine. No audits please. Yeah.  Mark: So, can you think of other examples in your life Yaka, where you might apply something like this taxes, I think is a really good one, by the way. Yucca: Yeah, Taxes. I mean, there's all of that. Sort of domestic stuff that we've just got to do in our lives. And for some people, some people love some and, and hate others, right? The getting into things like the dishes or the calling people on the phone to correct things that needed to be corrected. I mean, there's, there's all of those that Th this idea is just so exciting because it can make it into this exciting th this adventure and maybe transition some of that anxiety and dread into anticipation and excitement. So this is, this is a very interesting idea. Mark: I think it's something that you can enlist your kids into. We're going to go on a quest for food. Yucca: Oh, we've been doing something. We unfortunately had to get a new car. We loved the car that we had, but it. That's a point. It, when it breaks down more often than once a week consistently, it becomes time to get another one. And the kids of course were very sad about this because we name our cars. But we, they got to name this one and we've turned it into basically our own little version of the magic school bus. So we, we get in the car and we go on adventures and. Pretend that, oh, we're going through the volcano now and all of that sort of thing. So this has already, I mean, kids, kids minds are just, you know, this primed for this. It's perfect. So I think of maybe it's a little bit of for remembering and bringing back that part, that, that came natural to all of us at one point and some of it, Yes. There's some of there's the growing up, but a lot of it, we lost because. That's what we, it was forced out of us. It was taught out of us.  Mark: Right, right. Yeah. And you know, when you think about it, teaching children not to have fun, that's, that's kind of. Deep wrong. I mean, that's, that's not a minor thing. That's, that's really a deep wrong and yes, people need to be able to function in the world and all that good kind of stuff. They need to be able to kind of tamp it down and focus. But the story that they tell themselves, What they're doing and why that's their business. And I don't think that taking away that kind of joyous creative imagination approach to the events of our lives is doing anyone any favors. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: So we really recommend that you kind of give this a shot. It imagine in your own life, what are the things that you have to do you don't really like to do? And how can you reimagine those as something that is adventurous and exciting and even mystical.  Yucca: Yeah. How can you, if you were the author, the narrator of the story that you. What details would you be focusing on to what are the things? Because you can take the same scene, the same events in life, and then how it's told what is noticed paints completely different pictures.  Mark: right.  We've been using a lot of, sort of illusions to fantasy role-playing games in this conversation. And, and I don't think that that's accidental because. One of the things that fantasy role-playing games allow us to do is to exercise that fantasy and imagination part of ourselves. Because I mean, theoretically you could describe most Dungeons and dragons campaigns in a very tedious pedestrian way as well, but why would you do that? The point of it is to be having a really amazing time. Well, The point of our lives is to be having a really amazing time too. And don't let anybody tell you any different you know, we've, we've addressed this many times, you know, part of, part of the deep nature of being a pagan is really approaching the world in a fundamentally different way than the mainstream culture, which is so unhappy and violent. And. Bigoted and all those things that we really don't want to be. So, this is another, another piece, another technique that we can use to magic up our the, the circumstances of our living. Yucca: Hmm. Well, as always, we love hearing from all of you. If you have suggestions comments, questions, you can always reach us@thewonderpodcastqueuesatgmail.com. That's queues as an questions. Q S so the wonder podcast queues, the tml.com.  Mark: Yes. And we would love to hear from you and love to hear any of the reframes that you might have done after hearing this podcast you know, simple or routine or tedious activities that you've turned into. Cool adventures by reframing what they mean. We'd love to hear about that. So thank you so much, Yucca for a great conversation,  Yucca: likewise, mark.  Mark: and we'll see you all next week. 

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S2E29 TRANSCRIPT: ----more---- body Yucca: Welcome back to the wonder science-based paganism. I'm one of your hosts Yucca.  Mark: And I'm the other one, Mark. Yucca: And today we are talking about the body, our bodies, what bodies are our relationship to them and how that ties into our.  Mark: Right. One of the things that is often used as a, a distinction between paganism and many of the other larger religions is that we are an embodied religion. We are about the, the, the materiality of earth and ourselves and the, the biotic kingdom, all of which is physical. It's all, it's all made up of material stuff. Yucca: Yep. And most of us aren't trying to ascend to a higher plane or any of that kind of stuff.  Mark: Well, there are a lot of people in the pagan community who, for example believe in a soul or a spirit. And they, they believe that that may carry on through a reincarnation process or something like that as non theists, pagans, we, and science-based pagans. We don't really buy that. We don't see any evidence. What we see evidence for is that there is no distinction between the body and the self or the mind we are thinking meat. And it's the meat that does the thinking. So our bodies are ourselves. And in order to, to fully live in the experience of being human in this world, we have to embrace the physicality of ourselves and not think of that as distinct or separate from the real self that the over culture tells us is like some ghost in the machine. Yucca: Yeah. and, and this can be tricky because we were just, before hitting the record, we were talking about how so much of our language is shaped by the cultures that we are around and the religions that influence the larger culture. And so we'll often end up using. Words and expressions that don't reflect what we really believe like, oh, well this is the body I'm in, Right, That expression would implies that the eye is separate from this body. And that I'm just in it. Like you were saying, the ghost in the machine that of just driving this body around rather than seeing wait, this body is. Me, my mind is  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: an expression it's created from it's it's emergent from this body  Mark: Right,  Yucca: and it's not a different thing. It's part of it.  Mark: right. Right, There are, there are technical terms for those two different worldviews and they are dualism and monism and dualism was advanced as a model. I mean, it's been believed for many, many centuries. It philosophically, it was advanced as a model by Rene cart with his famous, I think therefore I am he was willing to extend that the fact that he was thinking meant that he had existence, but he wasn't willing to go quite so far as to say that his body was a part of that thinking process which we have since learned it is. It is indeed to the degree that we now are able to identify particular little synopsis that encode particular meanings for us particular words.  Yucca: Mm.  Mark: It's not a precise process by any means, but there has been enough research to demonstrate that the thinking is, as you said, an emergent property of the brain and of the nervous system. And what that means is that we are our bodies. The sum total of everything we are is our bodies.  Yucca: Mm.  Mark: That, that is a view called monism, which as opposed to dualism, which is the idea that the body and the mind, or spirit or soul or something are separate and that one could exist without the other. And as you say, we use so much language even to say my body. Makes no sense because really what we should be saying is I, I do this, you know, I, I kicked my legs. I I don't respond well to a bell peppers. I need insulin whatever, whatever it is. It's not my body needs this. It's I need this because there's no difference between the self and the body. And this is important. It's not just important from the philosophical standpoint of, you know, taking a good, hard look at the evidence and understanding that it's unlikely that there's something like a soul or a spirit it's important because in the traditional religions throughout the world, the idea has been that this, this ephemeral spark, this spirit or soul or whatever it is, is much more important. Then the body and as pagans, we really reject that. Yucca: Yeah. And on the one hand, I can understand the appeal of it. Right? There's something comforting. If. If I am not my body, if something happens to my body, well, that's Okay. Then I still get this afterlife or you know, it's any of those things. But it, it also sets up an opportunity to excuse the conditions that the person is living in, in that moment.  Mark: Yes. Yucca: Right. So don't worry. You can be. You can not have enough food. You can be miserable now, but don't worry. Your soul will go on or your mind will go on. It's okay. We can hurt your body because that's not you.  Mark: Right. As the as the Woody Guthrie song says, you'll have pie in the sky when you die.  Yucca: Hmm.  Mark: And that rationalization has been used to create a great deal of horror. Entire wars have been fought on the idea that slaughtering all these people is good for them because it frees their souls for God. Horrible tortures have been inflicted because you know, we're saving their souls because you know, as long as they repent at the end, then God will give them a gold star and, you know, send them on into paradise. It's a, it's a pernicious view. And. The embracing of physicality of the body has tremendous implications, not only for, in those kinds of extreme cases, but just in how we live our lives.   Yucca: How we relate to our own selves.  Mark: yes. Yes. And it's very hard to pry yourself away from a culture which has. Crazy relationships with food and with body image and body shapes and aging and all those kinds of things. There are just so many layers of opportunities for self-loathing and therefore for somebody to sell you a product in a, in the world that we live in today, and what we can offer as science-based pagans is a glimpse mate. Of how to escape that  Yucca: Hm.  Mark: glimpse of a world in which we simply embrace ourselves as being these physical beings in a physical world. And we say that it's great. And I love me. Therefore, I love my body, whatever it's shaped, whatever its ability, whatever it's condition, and therefore I can move forward in the world with confidence. Yucca: Yeah. From there, the relationship that we have with ourselves with that confidence, that then has an impact on how we are perceived and how others then treat us turn.  Mark: Yes. Yes. You know, it's a, it's a funny thing. Confidence is this very ephemeral sort of quality. We know it when we see it. And when we can tell when it's real confidence versus sort of arrogance rooted in insecurity, we can really tell the difference. We can smell it. And confidence has a tremendous bearing on how other people view it. There was this I have this story from when I lived in Spain, in Barcelona, and it's just, it's kind of a cute, funny story. I had been in the city for eight months or so, and had been. Struggling to learn the language and very lonely. Other than a couple of English speaking expatriates, I didn't really know anyone. But I met this woman at a, an expatriates get together and we decided to go on a date. So I'm on this train. Two headed towards this date. And I'm filled with a sense of being attractive and being confident and being excited about the dates and all this kind of stuff. And this woman, and I mean, an empty train. Woman gets on the train. Beautiful woman sits in the seat directly opposite me of all of the seats in the entire train. And does this sort of flirty eye contact thing with me for the entire time until I get off the train and then says good night to me on my way. And it was clear that she was very attracted to me. And the only real difference between that day and yeah, the day before was that I was filled with brimming with all this confidence and feeling attractive and all that good kind of stuff. And I remember that there was this sort of anthropological part of myself that was really fascinated by this exchange. I've always remembered the story.  Yucca: Hmm.  Mark: So that is a thing. If we feel good about ourselves and by selves, we mean the totality of ourselves, right. That, you know, the body and the thinking and feeling that the body creates it draws others to us. Uh it's it's that?  Yucca: Okay.  Mark: That ephemeral quality of charisma that nobody can quite define. Yucca: Yeah. And I love that you pointed out is that it's authentic confidence not being cocky or, you know, arrogant or anything like that. But in your story, it sounds like you do, you really were feeling that about yourself.  Mark: Yes, I really was. And I hadn't been for a long time and I think that's probably why the story sticks out in my mind because the contrast was so great from the sort of invisibility that I had been feeling and loneliness that I'd been feeling for a long time that evening, I, I wasn't invisible and I wasn't lonely. And there was this lovely woman who wanted me to come and go on a date with her. So I was feeling great.  Yucca: Hmm. So one thing to mention as well in all of this is when we talk about the, having confidence in our bodies and all of that. We're not saying to not acknowledge places where there is hurt, where we are unhealthy. But  Mark: Yeah. Yucca: to try not to hate those are bloated. Parts like, recognizing that that's part of just who we are and where we're at Right. now, Mark: Right. And there is a big difference between having a body shape that isn't the, the socially sanctioned, stereotypical body type  Yucca: which by the way, doesn't actually exist.  Mark: no.  Yucca: Like  Mark: It really doesn't exist. But there's a difference between feeling like you're supposed to lose 30 pounds in order to try to approach that model and. Deciding that you want to lose some weight for health purposes, because it's been recommended to you by your physician, that it could probably benefit you. If you lost a little weight, there's a big difference between the two. One of them happens out of love for yourself. And the other happens out of a distaste for how your current body is and all bodies change. That's part of the deal with aging bodies change and. At some level, it helps us a great deal to be able to simply to accept the fact that our bodies do change over time. And that that's, that's just part of the ride. Yucca: and that there really are. Different body types, not just body compositions, right? Like, but literal body types of really, how wide are your shoulders? Where, where is the weight going to be carried on your body or not? What is the shape of your face? It, how, you know, how long are your legs are? Not, those are just things that are, that, that there are differences between people and. Sure you could dress a certain way to make maybe your shoulders see wider or not, but that's just the way your body is.  Mark: Yes. Yes. And so if we get away from the idea of trying to fit ourselves to some conventional standard of attractiveness and instead dress the way that makes us feel good. We probably get a lot further in terms of others finding us interesting to look at and attractive and so forth. Maybe not everyone, but some people are shallow. Let's face it. You know, some people are simply, you know, they're looking for that ideal and they're just going to some people up based on how their body parts look and, you know, you probably have better things to do with your time and to deal with those folks. Yucca: Yeah, Well, certainly when you're in the realm of dating that's you probably don't want to.  Mark: Yeah. Yucca: That's probably not a great person for you to be with. Anyways, it starts to get more complicated when you get into the world of trying to have a job or, you know, what your landlord's impression about you is or things like that. And the unfair double standards of our world. When it comes to different genders and different ages and different races. And there's, there's so much to all of that, but I think that there really is value in coming back to setting all of that aside, which some of that is external stuff that, you know, I'm never going to be able to control what my neighbor thinks about a woman or not, but I do control. Or at least strongly influence what I think about me.  Mark: Yes. Yes. And at the core of much of what sort of, for want of a better term magical practition is magical practice. Is, is about self-possession it's about owning yourself and really knowing yourself and and drawing on the wellsprings of Knowledge and a will and energy and power. And I mean energy in a literal sense, like, you know, the energy that powers our body in order to focus our minds and change our consciousness. And you can't really do that terribly well, if you don't own yourself, which is your body. Even if you think that you live up in your head all the time, the rest of your body is functioning, it's doing stuff. It might be good to check in with that. Yucca: Yeah. And rewarding too,  Mark: Absolutely. Yucca: Not just on a, on a should. It should be, it'll be better for you, but on a, just coming back to, you know, what does it feel like to be alive? What's it feel like to be you  Mark: right. Yucca: and when we're coming at it from the perspective of, Hey, this is, I am my boss. There does come the realization with that, that, well, this body is not going to be around for very long, like Yeah. Longer than the crickets, but really you know, the century, if you're real, real lucky, actually isn't that long. Right. And so here I am. And I'd like to make the best of it and enjoy it as much as I can and be as, as aware and present as possible.  Mark: Yes. And we come back to those principles again and again, being, paying attention, being aware, being present, being kind being. You know, living in accordance with those principles that we talked about in a few episodes a while back because not because you should but because it's actually a path towards a way of living that we can be really proud of and really happy. And that's kind of the point of the game, isn't it? When you're when you're lying on your death bed, what do you want to feel? You want to feel that you have at a wonderful time and that you're proud of your work? Right?  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: I mean, that's, that's about all of us can, can take with us in our last moments, so, oh, go ahead. Yucca: for. Many of us have loved ones who we want to be able to be there for and to take care of those people. And you know, it's a little cliche to say, but it's so true that you can't take care of someone else without first taking care of yourself.  Mark: Yes. Yucca: I think about on the airplanes, right?  Mark: Mm. Yucca: They always tell you to put when the oxygen masks popped down, which I've never been on a flight that's happened on thankfully. But if it does, you're supposed to always secure your own mask first so that you can then help someone else out because you're not going to be any help. If you pass out.  Mark: Right. Yeah, exactly. So, the, the magic that we do in the world, if we're going to speak in those terms, the. The effect that we have in the world starts with the self. And that's not to say that we should be, you know, narcissistic and self obsessed and all that kind of stuff, but we should have a healthy respect for ourselves and, and a real love for who and what we are and who, and what we are is our physical bodies. It's a meat machine and the meat does the thinking. So love the meat, because if you love yourself, if you love your mind and your philosophies and your way of being, and I certainly hope you do because self-love is so important for happiness and for effectiveness in the world. Then, you know, the meat is an integral part of the package. You don't, you don't get, it's not a cafeteria. You don't get to pick and choose what parts of yourself you love. It's gotta be the whole deal. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: So, we had talked about the possibility of what are some things that people who feel like they're not very well connected with their bodies can do.  Yucca: Or even those who are, but once. Continue to, to cultivate that and nourish that because like so many things, this is practice. It's not, it's not, you don't flip a switch and a high, you got it now, Right. There's, it's a continual choice day after day, week after week, year after year.  Mark: And the one thing that comes to mind to me immediately is swimming.  Yucca: Hm.  Mark: And the reason for that is that. When you're in water, you have a constant stimulation happening all over your body. Your physicality is becoming much more visible to the rest of your brain because it's constantly getting these reports of, Hey, there's this substance touching us all over. Yucca: Hm.  Mark: And you can also, because gravity is your, your buoyancy reduces the, the effect of gravity. You can, you can move around and moving around in water is a whole body experience. At least for most people, it is, it's a whole, a whole body activity. So I think getting in water and I mean, I know if you're, if you don't have much upholstery like me it can be cold. So, I like to, I like to go swimming in places that are really warm. But I, I think that's a, it's a good opportunity. I mean, one of the things that I remember very fondly about Snorkeling in Hawaii in the warm water is not only the amazing fish and coral and turtles and just miracle world down there, but also just the feeling of really being connected with my physicality and using that to motor around the world. Whereas I don't notice that so much when I'm walking, because I'm so accustomed to it. Yucca: And all that. You might not try, want to try this smell snorkeling, but you know, when you're in a pool or don't have the snorkel, you can do flips and turns and things that, that most of us stopped doing when we're. Nine on ground. right. Because then my bones aren't so bendy anymore. It starts to hurt when I fall. But in the water, there's that, that freedom that you have.  Mark: Yeah. Yes, very central experience and, and, and just a lovely one. I'm it doesn't surprise me that swimming pools are kind of a ubiquitous thing that we have them all over the place and people want to go in water. Yucca: Hm. Mm, well, building on that idea, there may be things that work in different people's lives, where it helps to achieve some of that same idea that you're talking about, the, the, getting all of that, that stimulus everywhere on your body. And it might be other physical activities. Maybe a bath, right. Coming back to the water idea. And that one is a really a lovely one that comes up time and time again, when we start thinking about things like self care and, and, you know, there's the classic image of the bubble bath with the glass of wine and the rose pedals And all of that, but the candles. Right. But for just that, that tuning in with yourself and at the same time, Creating a space that's separate from everything else that's going on. Right. Bringing that the sense into yourself. Just starting to, to maybe just do a check-in with you starting wherever you want, maybe from your toes, moving up through your body and just kind of feel an oh Yeah. Okay. I've got muscles there, you know? Oh, that's me. Right.  Mark: Yeah. And, and I think those kinds of experiences can go a long way towards building a sense of wholeness between the, the think for thinking self and the, the. More muscular moving self.  Yucca: Hmm.  Mark: And as as a result of that, we didn't have improvements to our sense of body image by building that sense of common cause with our physicality. I mean, everybody in the over culture. Everybody, certainly in the societies that I'm familiar with is subject to this onslaught of imagery about what they're supposed to look like and how their body is supposed to work. And it's, it's very harmful because not only does it undermine people's sense of joy in being who they are. But. There's a point at which people cross a line where they're far enough out of compliance with that, that projected image of what they're supposed to look like, that they kind of give up on themselves to some degree, I think. And that is, that's just a terrible waste for people to go through an experience like that. There's, there's no reason for it. I mean, There are magnificent, incredible people who or fat. There are magnificent, incredible people who are in wheelchairs. There are magnificent, incredible people who have all different kinds of conditions and shapes and appearances, and the, the idea that we should be measuring ourselves. By this visual bit is just, as I said, it's really pernicious. I just,  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: if I could wave a magic wand of which I have several, but it doesn't really Yucca: Oh yeah. Mark: like that. Yucca: One of the other places that I think we have. A lot of, of influencer opportunity is in our self-talk. So being mindful that our self-talk is, is it can go either way. We can really drag ourselves through the mud and degrade ourselves, and we believe ourselves. That's the thing. We really believe what we tell ourselves on, on some very, very deep level. And so when our messages, when we see ourselves in the mirror, oh, you know, my eyes are so asymmetrical or I've got blackheads or, you know, I'm not in my thirties. Why do I still have acne or whatever it is.  That is what we hear. And that's what we start to believe about ourselves, but pointing out the positive things to ourselves, using kind words. When we speak to ourselves, you know, all of those things really change the whole feel of our day change, what we hear and what we believe.  Mark: Yeah. Yes, because that internal dialogue is a reflection of what we believe. And if we change the dialogue, we'll change our beliefs. Really encourage people to go back into the archives, to listen to the piece on the critic, voice. That we did for some kind of details on, on this. The critic voice of course undermines our power and it makes it harder for us to achieve what we want to or need to in the world. And one of the, one of the primary ways that the critic voice will get at you is by criticizing the body. It's it's. Dumb. When you think about it, that of all the things that it's going to criticize you about, that's what it's really going to zap you with. But the table has been set by the over culture. You know, we've, we've all been primed to be afraid that there's something wrong with the body. And so it takes, it takes advantage wherever it can. Yucca: Yeah. So what are some other things that people can do? And we've been talking about just experiencing the body, getting in tune with it, minding our internal dialogue, maybe some of our external dialogue. Right. W when at the beginning we talked about how the, the way that we speak often in forces, that idea of separation between mind and body and body and self and soul and all of that.  Mark: Yes. Yucca: Anything else that, that comes to mind for you, Mark?  Mark: And particularly for people who feel very disconnected from their physicality, I think massage is a great thing because it's all about self care. It's all about, you know, providing something pleasurable and supportive to your physical self. At one time or another, pretty much all parts of your body will be handled. So there'll be that physical feedback back to your brain that, yeah. The those things that you see out there that you'd get a visual report from once in a while, those are your feet and they really exist. They're there. They're actually there. And I, I mean, I joke about this, but it's kind of true, you know, especially as we get older and creakier, and it gets harder and harder to reach our feet Because we're just stiffer than we used to be. Those parts of the body can sort of fade in significance in, in how we relate to them. That's certainly been my experience. And so I worked pretty hard to flex my feet all the time and pay attention to them. And You know, for some reason, the farther you get from my head, the less real my body seems to me. So I have to work to make sure that that my full physicality is embraced by my understanding of myself. Yucca: yeah, that makes a lot of sense.  Mark: And, you know, it's because most of our sensory organs. On the front of our head, right. Or on the sides of our head. And we're very visual animals to begin with. So, yes, that's, the feet are a long way away unless I try to bring them closer, which is a painful process, but I can do it if it's really important to me. Yucca: well, and, and our culture has become more and more sedentary.  Mark: Yes. That's true too. Yucca: And then specifically with the feet, we, we put them, we essentially bind them for most of our lives and separate them from that, that tactile experience where our hands were touching things with our hands all the time, but our feet are bound up and put inside of these cushiony things that, you know, we really don't feel very much with them.  Mark: Exactly. Yeah. It's, I, I don't mention it because it's very difficult for me for two reasons. One of which is that I have foot issues. Make going barefoot, very painful for me, unless it's on a really soft surface, like sand or grass, but I'm also allergic to cut grass. And so my skin breaks out. So going barefoot on grass,  Yucca: heard of that,  Mark: for me. Yucca: that particular allergy before.  Mark: Yeah. I used to think that I was allergic to chlorophyll, but that's not it it's it's something in cut grass. And I ever since I was a little kid, if I lie on, you know, cut grass without a shirt on or something, I will get these welts. So in any case, I don't think about it so much, but walking barefoot is really good for it. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: It really is good for you. There are tons of nerve endings in your feet, and there's just, there's a way of sort of, it's sort of gripping the earth with your toes that, that walking barefoot provides. And just remembering to do that once in a while is a way of. Reconnecting feeling more integrated. And I, I guess, see, this is where our language breaks down again, because integration implies, you've got two things that need to come together. And it's just one thing it's more about needing to understand that it's just one thing, instead of having this artificial divide within ourselves. Yucca: Yeah, I think a topic that we should come back to related to bodies coming back again to the body are. Body  Mark: Okay. Yucca: images, right? What is our body? And that ties back and we did an episode a few months back on relationship with food, but but coming back to our worth, you know, tying in our self-worth and tying in all kinds of things into that I think as is worse returning to for today, though, we've gone through a lot.  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: good introduction.  Mark: I agree. I think it's a good start for the conversation. The, the whole idea of the sacralization of the physical is a very central topic to modern paganism and it's. It's one of those things that is so far out of step with the cultures that surround us, that it's a little bit hard to grasp. You just, you sorta reach for it. And sometimes it's there and sometimes it's not. So I, I do think that it would be good for us to address specifically body image stuff, because you know, people. People who want to be happy, have to be, have to be lined up on their own side, rather, rather than filled with internal conflict. And that's what we want for you listeners. We want you to be happy and effective and to be able to do the things in the world that are important to you. So that's why we talk about this stuff. Now what we haven't talked about this time at all, and I'll just touch on it really briefly is using ritual to to address, you know, feeling of discord or of separation between the self and the body. And I'm just going to kind of put a pin and in that rather than go into suggestions of how you can do that I'm sure you can come up with your own ideas of how to do that. And you know, the, the wonderful bubble bath is certainly an example. But when we do the, the body image episode, we'll talk more about ritual approaches to that kind of integration. Yucca: Exactly. Yeah. We'll, we'll just give some specific examples and ways to build those rituals.  Mark: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you Yucca. Thanks for another great conversation. Yucca: All right. See you next week.  Mark: Okay. Take care.  

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com An Atheopagan Ritual Primer: https://atheopaganism.files.wordpress.com/2018/07/an-atheopagan-ritual-primer-v4.pdf S2E27 TRANSCRIPT: ----more---- Mark: Welcome Back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm your host Mark.  Yucca: And I'm Yucca.  Mark: Today. We're going to talk about sacred space. What it is, how to create it and how to, to build sacred space into your own home. Yucca: Exactly. And we'll also get in to a little bit, building that in, in shared spaces. Because we know that a lot of people are in situations where they share space. First of all, but might be with a roommate, a dorm mate, you know, parents, spouses, anything like that. And they may not be in a situation where they're one, their aesthetics, but also their beliefs are shared.  Mark: Right. And so, it becomes sort of a threading, the needle process of you know, how do you get your needs? While also accommodating the needs of the other people in your household. So we'll be talking about that some as well, but let's start with just what sacred space is because that's, it's a little hard to define. In my experience, sacred space is the environmental conditions that facilitate my moving into a ritual state of mind.  Yucca: Okay.  Mark: And that typically includes things like low lighting levels like candlelight aesthetically pleasing and metaphorically, symbolic objects and decor might include music that is facilitative for that. And personally, I, I like to live in sacred space. I, I decorate my room in a manner that is. It's kind of like a temple in that way. It has, you know, amazing sort of masks from all over the world on the walls and various, you know, pieces of art and symbolic objects and candle sticks and cauldrons and stuff like that. Yucca: Mm. Yeah. So I, I think I share your, your idea of sacred space as a space that can help move you into that ritual space. And that really just influences the way that we feel. It's something that I'm very aware of because one of my parents was an architect. So I grew up on job sites and building and all of those things. And so the shape of the space, the feeling of the space is, is this something always present and. The awareness of just what it feels like to walk into one room versus another room or one building versus another, or to step out, it really, really changes our moods and just our awareness of the world.  Mark: Yes. Yes. And I think this is something that we often don't pay much attention to. We just kind of slide on through our passage from space to space without really acknowledging how it's influencing our our psyche and our emotions. But. As we've said over and over again, a big element of being a science-based pagan is learning to pay attention and being aware of our environment. And that includes the built environment. It doesn't just include the natural environment. It includes the built environment. You know, we live in houses and apartments and, and, you know, various places.  Yucca: RVs. Yeah. Yeah.  Mark: And in some cases, tents.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Still we live in constructed spaces and our ability to make those spaces feel good to us is  Yucca: True.  Mark: something we have choices about. Most of us have choices about. And so over the years I have collected various pieces of artwork and Furniture items and so forth that speak to me of a particular aesthetic. And I deploy those in my room in a way that kind of augments the alter that's sort of the centerpiece of it, the focus And so at night I can put on some music and light some candles, and I'm really most of the way there into the ritual state before I even do any breathing exercises or visualization or any of that kind of stuff. Yucca: Yeah. So it sounds like you're, you're describing. Space that that you're stepping into. Well, sometimes some people are lucky enough to be in a position where they get to actually design and build the physical space. But most of us step into spaces that were built by somebody else for many different reasons, but we can then. Do things with those spaces, like creating the alter, changing the lighting maybe changing the color in the room may not be a possibility in terms of wall painting, but, Mark: but it might be  Yucca: but it might be right. You might be able to paint the wall or put a temporary wallpaper up or. Color of the bedsheets. Right. All of those things have a huge influence on getting you into that space or whatever the space is that you're designing for.  Mark: Yes. And you can be playful about it. For example, I like to hang a couple of led crystals in my window because when the afternoon sun comes in, suddenly I have little dancing, rainbows all over my room and it's cool. You know, it's just a little, a little trick of physics that that is pleasing to me and has a magical sort of quality. Yucca: We we actually got those for the kids for solstice, just passed the summer solstice. And the next morning they came out, I have it in the east window and the light and it was just all over the house. And both of them came out with the cute little groggy eyes. Wow. And then went around, try to touch it, the opening, their mouth to eat them. And so every morning it's an excitement of coming out and saying like, oh, you know, where are the rainbows? Are they on mom? And dad's head while they're trying to drink their morning tea. So we've got those same things and that they're just sudden catchers is another word for them. They're just amazing.  Mark: Yeah. And I mean, there are so many things that we can do. We, we talk about ritual technologies and, you know, a lot of those ritual technologies are active things that we can do when we're in the process of designing or. Or conducting the ritual things like chanting and singing and drumming and stuff like that. But there are also these sort of passive things we can do. In terms of, you know, lighting candles or putting on some particular kind of music. That's very evocative for us burning incense or herbs that creates a particular scent that takes us into a deeper more present. Kind of space.  Yucca: Hm.  Mark: And what I find is that because I pay attention to shaping the built environment around me, my, my house home and my room become more of a sanctuary to me. More of a place where I feel held and safe and in my power than I would otherwise. Yucca: so for you, do you bring in plants and living things as well? Is that something that really helps you get in that, into that space? Or is that something at a different part of the house?  Mark: Yes, we have a lot of plants. Noumea particularly has a whole lot of plants. I have two here in my room. A spider plant, which has little babies kind of dangling down from it that runs down the side of my focus. And then a , sort of a. Broad leaf looks a little like an Ivy, but it's not Ivy. And yeah,  Yucca: To both low light tolerant.  Mark: Yes. And very helpful. It's helpful to have living things, you know, as a part of that, that structure. I know that for some people their, their magical aesthetic isn't necessarily as intersected with the natural world as mine is. You know, if you look on my focus, you find pine cones and seashells and sea urchins and lots of natural rocks, of course, bones, feathers lots of natural things because they all remind me of just how incredible it is out there. Yucca: Hmm.  Mark: So, how about you? Yucca? What, what are your approaches to creating a sacred space within the home? Yucca: Yeah. So yeah, it depends on. Which space. So this is something that I'm very, very intentional about before moving into a new space. And we've just been moving finally, completely moving into what we plan to be a, you know, our forever home and see the Pope for that. So, No we're not, we have a lot more freedom in terms of changing things than we've ever had as renters before. But I really sit down and plan out the spaces and think about the flow of the spaces and how people would be moving from room to room and what are the feelings that we really want to have in those spaces. And  Mark: right. Yucca: for me, Those most kind of sacred moments. There are small daily ones, and so I want to create a space in each of those places that set aside for that, but kind of the big moments, the holidays throughout the year, things like that usually are actually going to be outside. So I don't make a. A major house focus or alter, but I have little ones throughout the house. So the bathroom space is one that's really important. The bathroom is a really big one actually, because that's where I think a lot of the refocusing happens. That's where a lot of that's the, for most people, that's the first place we go in the morning and it's the last place we go in the night before. Right. So th that's the start and the end of our days. So the, the actual shape of the room is very important, but how the lights coming in through the window and. Bringing little items, little rocks, or like you were saying, shells, bones, those sorts of things. And then the kitchen is the other really big one. And that's where our plants are. Our kitchen is just full of plants and greenery. The bedrooms are just for sleeping. That's it? I mean, the bedrooms just basically bed, nothing else. I mean, that's the only room in the house where I don't have plants just to have beds and sleeping people. So. And then, and then also the spot in the morning to drink the coffee or tea. I gave up coffee, but my, my little morning tea drink. So Yeah. Mark: Nice. Nice. Yeah. I've moved recently also. And so I'm in a new place and that was why I was thinking about this subject recently, you know, the, the, the creation of sacred space and why, why I felt so. Sort of disconnected and disoriented while all of my things were in boxes and why it was so important to me to, to create a space in my room as soon as I could after moving. So. I'm still in the midst of making decisions about the rest of the house.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Nehemiah and I are, are kind of working out what the living room is going to be like. And it's mostly there, but we have a sort of blank space that we know is going to be an altar ish space, but we don't really know what that's going to look like. So. And, you know, we have we have a handfasting broom with dozens of ribbons tied around it. That we're going to Mount over the back door. It's a sliding glass door, so we'll Mount it over that and it'll be visible there. But yeah, other than that really haven't thought it out very much yet. And so there's. You know, over the next couple of weeks, I'm sure we'll put that together, but it's not, not quite there yet. Yucca: So are you more of a. Live in this space, kind of feel it out for a while or  Mark: Well not.  Yucca: ahead of time. I mean, because there's so many different strategies, depending on the person of like, how to deal with that.  Mark: Yes. That's true. Well, this is a small space and. So like places like the kitchen, there's not really, I mean, there aren't even windows in the kitchen because it's double pane glass and that just takes up more room in fitness so that the sills are only about two inches wide. So there's very little in the way of locations where we could put things that would create. That would tie in with that theme happening throughout the house. But that said there is this it's, it's generally an open plan townhouse with only the bedrooms and the bathroom being kind of closed off. So. You know, the art on the walls makes a big difference. The the, what we finally decide is going to live on the dining area table in terms of visibility. So there's a lot of, a lot of things to think about little things to think about. And I haven't thought about them all yet.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Our big challenge right now is that we have several large glass fronted cabinets with glass shelves in them that we use for displaying cool stuff. We call it the museum and we have not yet put all the cool stuff into the shelving units yet. So that that's kind of a bit. Task that's ahead of us.  Yucca: Hmm.  Mark: And that will inevitably involve making decisions about which cool stuff gets in and which cool stuff doesn't make it and all that.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: So, but my, my living spaces have always been kind of female as, you know, welcome to the museum of natural history. So,  Yucca: Sounds so much fun.  Mark: Yeah. Oh God, we have such cool stuff. I have a whale vertebrae whole bunch of different kinds of cool fossils. Just cool stuff. Yucca: Mm, before I forgot to mention the books, we have a lot of books. That's the thing that's always been the hardest when moving is just boxes and boxes of books. And. We can't bear to we've, we've gotten rid of them as we've moved from place to place. And yet there always are more than when we started when we moved. So Yeah. Mark: I think that's particularly hard when you have small children, because if they're, if there's a book that you really value, you want to be able to share it with them as they get older. We have, we had 37 boxes of books, 37 banker's boxes of books  Yucca: That's a lot.  Mark: in our storage unit. We went through and mercilessly called and now we have 26. Boxes of books, but it's still 26 boxes of books and we just can't bear to give any of it away, but it lives in a storage shelf, storage unit. It's not like we have any access to any of it. There may be three shelves of books here. And you know, they're mostly sort of coffee table style books of physical anthropology and cave paintings.   Like that, you know, Yucca: well, we have a wall that I am. And fantasizing about one day building a ceiling to floor bookshelf up against, and actually making the bookshelves the same size as the books themselves. most of the time with the art book shelves, there'll be several inches between the top of the bookshelf and the books, and that's where the cat goes, but that's where absolutely everything else ends up going to, and then it's just completely stuffed with non books in the bookshelf. So I want to make them fit perfectly because trim sizes are pretty standard. You can get, you know, all the books that are textbook size and all the books that are. Mass market paperback and all of those. So that's the dream, but that takes a lot of that's a lot of time. So working on the, all the other things of daily life and work and raising families and all of that. So there's, there's always a prioritization when creating space is. about what.  Can I do now? And what's going to make the biggest influence in, in my life and my practice right now.  Mark: right. Yucca: Also what's seasonally appropriate both in the life season, but the seasons of the, of the year as well.  Mark: Yes. Yes. Yeah. And I think, you know, people generally the earliest decisions that they make when they enter a new space are strictly logistical decisions. You know, how's the kitchen going to work, that kind of stuff. The, Yucca: I don't want to move that couch upstairs.  Mark: oh, Yucca: I don't want to try and go up those stairs or, you know, choices like that. Right.  Mark: Those, those kinds of decisions where it's like, you know, where is the couch going to live? You know, all, all that kind of stuff. But for us a second layer then is this aesthetic piece in which we, so some sacredness into the, the layout of the house And it adds a lot of richness. It really does. There is something that is deeply what's the word I'm looking for? Comforting or content full? I don't think that's a word about. You know, being in a space that feels as though kind of the essence of my spirituality, suffuses it. The objects that I see are my friends in a way, if they, they it's almost as if they have personalities, because all of them have stories to tell about where I got them and where they come from. And The sorts of rituals that I've done with them and all of that sort of stuff. Yucca: Yeah. Well, we've been doing a lot of examples of, of our own lives which makes sense of where both of us have been for the past few weeks. But why don't we talk about some ideas or examples for situations in which you don't have a partner on board with you for this or you, you don't have a whole house or something like that.  Mark: Well, I think if you don't have a, if you have a partner and the partner's not on board with you sacred icing your whole space, I would hope that at the least you could negotiate for a space where you can build a focus or alter to experience your own spirituality. I mean, I think that that's a very problematic issue. If someone refuses to allow you to do something like that, that's denying a very essential part of you. And it doesn't bode well, in my opinion But beyond that beyond, you know, a simple space for for an altar or focus I think, you know, you don't have to completely sort of goth up here your, your space in order for there to be. A sense of meaning folded into the way that it's decorated. I was talking a second ago about how the objects in my room have story fees. Well, everybody has objects that have stories, right? If there are stories that are about your relationship or about your, your ancestry or about your fondness for a particular place in nature. If those objects can have a place out in the living space, then you'll feel more like you have a space in the living space. Those, those kinds of things are very helpful. Yucca: Okay.  Yeah. I think as non theist pagans there's a slight advantage that we have sometimes with sharing space. Some of the theist pagans might have, because although there are some non theist pagans who do enjoy the symbology and the metaphor of deities and just don't literally believe in them. Most of the time we aren't putting up statues of pagan gods and things like that, that might stand out immediately to a mother-in-law or a. Very conservative roommate or something like that, where the, the, the symbols that might be important to us might be that dried sunflower, or might be the bone or the seashell or the bottle of pretty river rocks or whatever it is.  Mark: Sure feathers, you know, stuff like that.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Yeah. I, I really agree with that. I, I think that, and, and to be fair, the, the roommate or housemate doesn't need to know what that object means to you. You don't have to communicate that if you don't want to, you can just say I'd like this to be out in the living space. And you know, presumably they are reasonable and you can negotiate with them around, you know, what is out in the living space and what is not. And and you just go from there and, you know, they may. You know, they, they don't have to know that this beautiful rock was found when you were on a mushroom trip. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: They you know, what it reminds you of isn't important. It's, it's just the fact that it's there in your space. So, yeah, I think that that's real. That really is an advantage because certainly some of the symbology of pagan gods can be Can make people that aren't pagans uncomfortable, especially because they tend to have a lot of nudity and in our culture, you know, which has so much body shaming and so much just stuff around the human body. Nudity is a no-no. You can't do that. So. Yucca: Yeah. And sometimes nudity a long with being part goat or part something else or, yeah. but just statically know. I love it. I love a lot of the aesthetics of, of some of those deities and statutes and hope that right. I have some man with the leaves and the beer and, and all of that. And in my own home, although I don't, again, believe that there's actually a guy walking around who is the embodiment of the forest or any of that. It's beautiful. It reminds me of some of my ancestry. But that certainly was not up in my dorm  Mark: Okay. Yucca: in undergrad. Right. That was not a, it in a dorm room situation. That's been years since I've been in one, but I had my little box and I opened up my box and it had everything decorated. So it was like a, it wasn't quite a shoe box. I don't really know where I'd even found it, but it, it, it just like opened up and there was the base and then the lid to it that created this kind of stage. And I had it open when I, when would want to be in my space. And then I closed it and it was private and very safe though.  Mark: Hm. Yucca: then for anything that I wanted really overt symbols, and then everything else was like, we've been talking about the, the colors with the dried flowers or things like that, that matched with what was happening with the season or what we found outside or any of that.  Mark: Right, right. Yeah. And I, I think that tuning. The degree of overtness of your symbolic placements is really just a matter, you know, of your particular situation. And you know, hopefully, hopefully you don't have deep philosophical divisions with the people that you live with, but some people do and. You know, it's just, it's a matter of asserting your, your own entitlement to commonly shared spaces. Common space is really what we're talking about here. If you have a room of your own, you should be able to do whatever you want with it. But in common spaces, the decoration can be kind of up for grabs and you just assert yourself and say, Hey, you know, I'd like this rock to be there. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: So, was going to recommend that along the course of kind of thinking about how to create sacred space. People might want to go to the atheopagan and some.org blog and go to the resources tab and download the ritual. Because the ritual primmer talks about a lot of different ritual technologies, ways to help, to induce that. Very present liminal ritual state everything from stained glass to candle light, to incense, to, you know, just lots of different approaches. And so that might be a useful guide for people helping to. Make decisions about decorating their spaces. Yucca: Yeah, I'll go ahead and put a link in the show notes to that fender. One wants to go ahead and click on that. Yeah. So I hope that your space continues to unfold and that you have wonderful sacred spaces that, that grow out of that. And yeah,  Mark: Thank you. And and likewise, as you move into your new, your new home that's very exciting and I know you have a lot of, kind of major logistical things that have to be in place for that all to happen. But of course the, the mytho poetic layer is really important, too.  Yucca: we're, we're almost there. We're so close. You know, just a couple of minor things like electricity, but you know, rest of it's there. yeah.  Mark: Oh, well, that's good. Yucca: So, but this has been great, mark. Thank you.  Mark: Yeah. It's always great to talk with you Yucca. See you next week.

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S2E26 TRANSCRIPT:   ----more----Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-Based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts Yucca.  Mark: And I'm the other one. Mark.  Yucca: And today we are coming back to the Atheopagan principles. So we've done a few episodes before, and we're going to tackle the final four today, although it's not like they're the last ones or the end, it's kind of cyclical, like probably all things and cycles. Mark: Yeah, these are principles. Just to remind listeners, or maybe you haven't heard the previous episodes about the atheopagan principles, these are the 13 core kind of operating how to live your life principles in the atheopagan path. And. So they are virtues they're things to be pursued and aspired to; adopting the atheopagan principles doesn't mean that you're perfect at them. It just means that you think that they're important and that you want to live your life in accordance with them to the degree that you're in. So, we've done two previous episodes, one about the first four. What about the middle five? And now we're doing the final four and we just want to talk about what they mean to us and why we think they're important.  Yucca: Yeah.  And  as always, this is not us saying you should believe what we believe, but we're talking about, we're talking about them because they are important to us and we think they're valid. Mark: Yes. I think they provide they and the four pillars, the four sacred things of atheopagan is and provide a sort of roadmap for. How to proceed a good set of tests when you're in a situation and you don't know what to do. Well, here are some, here are some guideposts that can kind of help you to decide what the right thing to do might be. So, we, we present them in that spirit, not in a vowel shelter sort of thing. There are no commandments in a non theist paganism and So I think we'll just get started.  Yucca: Yeah. So the first one is one that I think many forms of paganism share, but it's something that definitely sets paganism apart from. Modern religions. And that is that we are pleasure positive. Mark: Yes. There is a great deal of shame and doubt and self self harm associated with simply enjoying pleasurable things in the over culture. You know, and, and it manifests itself in many, many, many ways. In classic horror films, you can tell that the people that are going to get killed next are the ones who just had sex. Because they have to be punished. They did something pleasurable and now something bad has to happen to them. And in,  Yucca: deserve bad things happening to them because they were indulging too much in life or any of those things. Mark: right, right. You know, people this, the so-called victimless crimes where You know, we've we put people into prison for doing a mushroom trip, for example, which, you know, is a non-addictive substance that has zero record of people, you know, going crazy and killing people or doing anything harmful people generally just sit in one place and go wow for six hours. And, and yet we put people in prison for it. Simply because it's something that's enjoyable and there's a deep. History of this, going back to Calvinism and the Protestant reformation, and it is certainly heavily sewn into American culture, which of course was brought over by puritanical Protestant, Christians.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So in the pagan world, we think pleasure is good for you.  Yucca: Yeah, Mark: Obviously not at someone else's expense, obviously not without consent of any participating party.  Yucca: right. That's  big. That's huge. If it's, if there isn't consent, then, then that's something completely different. Mark: that's right. It's not okay. That's that's violence in victim ization. That's not that's, that's not enjoying something.  The the, the pagan community has generally been very laissez Faire around these so-called. Victimless crimes. Sex work for example, is something that is considered to be work. There are dangers associated with it and especially at lower socioeconomic levels where people are doing it because they need to survive. Not because they choose it. That's its own form of societal, lack of consent.  Yucca: Hm. Mark: You know, economic. Leveraging of people to do things that they don't otherwise want to do. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about people, you know, enjoying that ice cream enjoying whatever it is that gets you off sexually, whether or not, you know, you think that there are like bad things about it. If you and whoever you're doing that with are enjoying it, then that's a great thing.  Yucca: Yeah,  or yourself too, right?  Mark: Yes,  Yucca: We don't see masturbation as like a Ooh icky, terrible thing. Mark: right. Or a, or a, a poor substitute for partnered sex or any of that kind of stuff. Having a sexual relationship with yourself, normal and great.  Yucca: Hm. Mark: So do that, enjoy it. If that's something that you want to do. It's a, it's a simple concept to explain, but it's a life's work really to live in this manner because the over culture really does lean in on us. Hard about apologizing when we had too much fun, you know, about well, I had this, I had this banana split, but well then I, then I went running.  Yucca: Okay. Mark: You know, this feeling of like, you have to compensate for something pleasurable with something that is a work and an arduous and, and unpleasant in some way. We don't think so. We, you should just enjoy it.  Yucca: And of course not saying that one, shouldn't be taking care of themselves, making choices about, oh, is this banana split going to make me feel good later or not, but letting go of the, the  moral judgment around it. Right. And having it be. Purely a choice of, is this going to make me feel good or not? Or, you know, do I want to spend the money on it or not, but not I'm bad because I enjoyed and indulged in this delicious dessert that I really love. Mark: Right. And this principle ties in with all kinds of stuff around food.  We talked about food in a previous episode, in our relationship with food and I encourage it. To listen to that episode, but food is very pleasurable and we can get all twisted up with stuff around body shapes and body image and self relationship all around the simple fact that we take pleasure out of our food. And some people suffered a great deal because of that.  Yucca: And  it creeps into our language and way of thinking about it. You've probably heard people talk about clean food and not clean food or cheating on food or things like that. And that's all tied back to this anti pleasure, anti things connected to the Earth's Antifa, the animal side of it. Mark: Yes. Yes. And this is we, we talked about relationships a couple of episodes ago. This is why in March of the pagan community, you see alternative relationship structure.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Endorsed and supported and in, and and welcomed because we don't see anything wrong with relationships that involve more than two people. We don't see anything wrong with relationships that are open to sexual encounters with people other than the people that are in the relationship. Fortunately, this is now becoming mainstream, but you know, even 30 years ago, we didn't see anything wrong with homosexual relationships.  It's all about what works for people and what makes them happy. The BDSM community is welcomed in the pagan community for exactly the reason that if consenting adults want to do something together, that makes them happy. We're all for happiness. So, Yeah, That's really where a lot of that comes down.  Yucca: exactly. Mark: So that's pleasure, positivity. And it's the 10th atheopagan principal. And the next is  Yucca: Curiosity. Mark: right.  Yucca: Yeah. And this one, like all of them really important, but this one is one of those ones that it's harder to talk about. It's more of a, just an experience, right? Being curious for the sake of just the sake of wanting to know. Mark: right, right. I believe that it's an inherent human quality children are extremely curious. They're trying to figure out how the world works constantly. They're co you know, they're little scientists, constantly experimenting with different sorts of behaviors to see What happens.  Right. In the, in the case of adults, there is a danger of settling into a doctrinal dogma about the nature of the world. And then you stop asking questions about it and start defending the dogma. And this is the fundamental difference between faith-based religion of any kind, whether it, I mean, whether it's faith-based paganism, faith-based Abrahamic, monotheism Any kind of faith-based approach to the world where you've decided, you know, how it works. And now you're going to cherry pick the evidence in order to support that and ignore all the evidence that doesn't support it. That is.  Yucca: ask. And that frame the questions in such a way that it continues to confirm your pre-existing idea or view on the subject. Mark: Right. And that is exactly the opposite of a science-based approach.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Science is always asking new questions and I think it was Einstein who once said that the most exciting words in science are not, I found it or Eureka, but that's funny.  Yucca: Yeah,  Mark: Because a whole new range of questions have been opened, which if answered will reveal more to us about the nature of the universe. And that's what the goal is. The goal is to be learning about this place that we live for the time that we're given.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So curiosity has a lesson for us and the lesson. You don't know everything. There's always more to be learned. And that ties in with the atheopagan principle of humility, because however much of an authority, you may be on a subject. You don't know everything about it. Yucca: And  you're probably wrong on most of what you know, and you don't know which part it is that you're wrong on.  Mark: Right.  Yucca: right.  And that's just everybody, that's just what it is to exist.  Mark: Right. So being curious is a very important functional role for us.  And yes, well, it's fun. some of the time, but other times, like in conflict, for example, if you conflict with someone and you're sure that you know exactly what their position is and what they're trying to do to you. Then you'll have one set of responses. Right. But if you are curious to try to find out, well, what do they really mean by this? And what's their real goal. Then maybe you can take a different path towards some sort of reconciliation or, or finding of mutual common ground because you're inquiring rather than prosecuting an attack. Oh, the fenced  Yucca: Well, I think that leads perfectly into the next one, actually, which is integrity. Mark: also difficult to talk about because. I mean, it's very short, right? You should be true to your word and you should, you know, make agreements in good faith and have your, your discourse with other people be based in good faith approaches and not trying to manipulate or or, you know, maliciously devil's advocate as You know, some on the internet or want to do,  Yucca: Yeah,  Mark: but it's a really important one. it. The idea that someone is trustworthy is a very, very powerful component of our relationship with them. And if we conclude that they're not trustworthy, We won't get close to them. We just won't. And so the way to be close to people, the way to be able to work effectively with other people is to be seen as trustworthy.  Yucca: Right. Mark: And that means behaving with integrity. Yucca: And I think that applies not just with other people, but ourselves,  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: right. That integrity that we can trust ourselves is really, really important. Mark: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And some of that has to do with, you know, that, that critical voice that we talked about in an episode long ago that that's, self-destructive kind of voice that can arise in our own minds. We can ask ourselves. Does that voice have integrity? Does it, does it need me well, Yucca: Hmm. Mark: or is it trying to hurt me if it's malicious  Yucca: say  whatever it needs to, to make its point?  Mark: right, right.  Yucca: Yeah. So integrity. It there's integrity, but we can apply that in so many different areas. We could talk about intellectual integrity or emotional integrity or on and on. Right. But an in each of those fields, however it is that we're dividing them. It's that are you really. Being honest. Are you saying or believing doing to prove a point or to say what you think is true? Mark: Right. And that doesn't mean you can't be wrong. You can see what you believe to be true? and you can still be wrong about that. And that's, that's not being out of integrity. That's just being wrong.  Yucca: Yeah  Mark: and we all do that. That's, that's perfectly normal.  Yucca: being able to come back afterwards, if you do figure out that you're wrong and say, Hey. I'm changing my position. I was wrong.  Mark: yeah.  Yucca: This is where do I go from here? Right. So tying back into the humility, curiosity, integrity. I mean, these are all just woven together. Mark: Yes. Yes. And and the, I don't know where I was going with that. I lost it.  Yucca: Yeah, sorry, I cut you off on that.  Mark: No, that's okay. Oh, yes. The, the fact of coming back to someone with a changed position, I mean, that is an act of integrity. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I mean, it's one thing, if you sort of guiltily realize that you were wrong, But. you keep it quiet because you don't want to admit that you were wrong. That's not so cool.  That's that's really not, that's not clean, but saying, you know, I was wrong. And now, you know, we agree on this point and now where do we go? That's that's a position of integrity.  Yucca: And it's rough, right? Sometimes it might be easy depending on what it is. And other times, you know, it can be a bit of an ego blow,  Mark: Sure  Yucca: but  it's one of those things that is practice, right? The more you practice, the, you are setting up a pattern of intention. Mark: right. It's super important to model this for children. I mean, I've, I've mentioned before that I had a pretty awful childhood. And one of the reasons that I had an awful childhood was that I knew that my parents were on drugs.  Yucca: Hm. Mark: They, they would lie and they would lie for different reasons. My father would, because being wrong was anathema as a narcissist. He just, he couldn't stand the idea of being wrong. And so he had that sort of Donald Trump quality of refusing to admit that he'd ever been wrong. Even though there were times when I just caught him out. I remember once he had mistakenly, he knew this, but he just said it backwards. He, he told me that the short end of the frequency spectrum of the rainbow was the the red.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And that the violet end was the long end. And I mentioned this later, when I learned that it was the other way around and he said, no, I never said that. I would never say that.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And I couldn't have been more than seven years old when that happened, but it went all the way and, you know,  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: here's somebody who will lie to me in order to protect his status.  Yucca: Yeah. This same idea is why we don't do Santa Claus or the Easter bunny or any of those things,  Mark: Okay.  Yucca: That, you know, and different, different people have different approaches to it. But the idea of lying to the kids and saying that there's this magical being who comes and does this and that You know, if you're good and all of that stuff connected in there as  well. And then, and it's like this lie that everybody is in on, not just the parents, but all of society. And it's like this big mean taboo. If you're the older kid and you like tell the kids the younger one about the secret that, oh, Santa Claus is not real. And my father has a story about finding out that he'd been like,  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: About Santa Claus. And he was pretty young at that moment at being raised in a Catholic family. And that was the moment he also went, oh, they must be doing this with Jesus and God too. Right. When? Okay. But, but that, that law, that loss of trust I think is, is, is heartbreaking. Mark: It is. And As I was saying before, trust is everything right? I mean, trust is the core of relationships.  And so, you know, that that integrity becomes very important. I want to acknowledge that lots of parents do have lots of different ways of orienting to the whole Santa Claus phenomenon.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And there are some that I think are pretty charming. It's sort of invite the child at a certain point to kind of take on the role with younger children. And it's sort of an initiatory thing. I think that's a little cleaner than just, well, we were lying, but it was because it was fun.  Yucca: Yeah. I think there there's definitely ways to handle it. We pretended. And of course not being a Christian family, but we still had Christmas and Santa Claus, but every for everyone, it was a wink, wink. Isn't this fun, right? Like there was everybody was in on the game of it. And then it was like a fun make believe sort of thing. But there was never, ever a moment when it was where any of us thought that it was a literal person coming down, our chimney that was about. But, you know, 12 inches across.  Mark: Okay.  Yucca: So, so again, no judgment to other families for making whatever choice they do. Just that for us is why we don't do do it because I don't even want to go anywhere close to where it might, where my kids might feel like I lied to you. Mark: Right. And that brings us to the last of the atheopagan principles, the 13 principles, and by no means the least important, these are not in any kind of priority order. They, they are literally in the order that they occurred to me.  Yucca: Okay. Mark: I just, I wrote them down. And then when. After this one, there just didn't seem to be anything more. And maybe I'm wrong about that. And there are more principles that should be added, but so far it just hasn't seemed like that to me.  Yucca: Well, and 13 is just such a fun number,  Mark: Yes, it is.  Yucca: right? It's just, yeah. And then of course it, it worked out very nicely. I don't remember who it was in the Facebook group who suggested applying it to the moon. Mark: Right. I don't remember who that was offhand either, but it's a brilliant idea.  So for example, the full moon that we have coming up is the legacy. And so you just apply the principles to each of the full moons. And that gives a theme to each one of the full moons. And because there are 13 of them, they precess around the course of the year. So it's a lot like the theme is the same in June, every year. No, next year it's going to be in July.  Yucca: Yup. And then on and on and  Mark: Right, right.  Yucca: keeps rolling. So, but kindness and compassion.  Mark: Right  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: because we're all human. We're all gonna make mistakes. We're all gonna have bad days when we're snarling and snapping.  Yucca: Hm. Mark: And we have to be understanding towards one another about this. We have to be kind to ourselves when we don't need. The standards of the principles that we embrace, we have to be kind to one another and compassionate for the plight of one another, because people's lives can be very, very different. And we don't really know what all they're going through.  One of the, one of the first moments that I realized that I was growing up. Was when I was 12 or so I think, and it's suddenly twigged to me that everybody around me was also having this internal dialogue.  They were, you know, they weren't just characters in my, in my little drama that they were people and they had needs and motivations and injuries and all that kind of stuff. And I think it's really incumbent on us to be aware of this and to be kind.  Yucca: Yeah. Yes and This is one where, I mean, I think of it as I try and have it be my baseline that I returned. And the idea of, of having kindness and compassion doesn't mean that we can't have other emotions that there isn't a place that's appropriate to be angry towards someone. Or that being kind to somebody somehow means that we automatically agree with them. Right. You can be kind to someone without agreeing with what they're saying. Without accepting their position, but you can still treat them kindly. You can still have treat them with respect, whether or not you think that the way that they're behaving is appropriate or not,  but it doesn't mean that I think that the kindness and compassion are so key and critical, whether you believe that the person is acting in a way worthy of, of that, it's not something that they earn. It's just how you behave. This is I'm struggling to find the words here, right? Mark: Well, I think some of it is, it's not so much about them as it is about.  Yucca: Yeah, Mark: The, there is a very, in the over culture, there is this very Protestant idea about, well, you know, people have to earn their kindness. They have to earn their compassion. And that's just not the case. Everybody has already earned it by dent of the fact that they're a human.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So it's all enough. To remember that and to act accordingly, even with people that are really difficult and maybe messed up and, you know, maybe striking out all over the place. And that doesn't mean to turn yourself into a punching bag. You have to, they have appropriate boundaries and, you know, be clear about what you're willing to tolerate and what you're not willing to tolerate. But that doesn't mean that you can't be. Kind and respectful and compassionate towards the people that you engage in your life.  Yucca: Yeah. And then tying back to what we were talking about with the integrity, when we mess up. Going back and acknowledging that,  Mark: right. right.  Yucca: Because again, we are going to mess up. Right. We're human. And I don't know of any other living thing that wouldn't mess up. No, we don't  believe in angels or, you know, divine beings or anything like that mean even then most of the stories of those have the mess it up quite a bit. Mark: they do actually. They're supposed to be perfect.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Yeah. I want to emphasize again, that this principle applies to your relationship with yourself.  Yucca: Yes. Mark: So, you know, when you mess up sure. You know, fess up, acknowledge that, having integrity in relationship to it, but also cut yourself a break. You know, we're human and we're there for imperfect and we're there for allowed to make mistakes. If we learn from them it's, this is not a get out of countability free card,  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: because it's still on us to learn from our mistakes and to have integrity in how we proceed from here.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: But but to simply to simply have that, that impulse of kindness towards yourself, I think is really important.  Yucca: Yeah. Yeah, it's critical. And it's one of those things. I don't know how we could in a true way. Have it towards another without having it towards ourselves. I think  Mark: That's true.  That's true. I mean, people who have a very strong, critical test master running inside their own heads, they tend to be. pretty strong, critical test masters to other people  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: you may ending and punitive and. That sort of thing.  And remember the, the atheopagan path specifically and non fee is paganism. Generally. They're about being happy.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: They're about, you know, living a good life and enjoying this ride that we get through this amazing place. I, it, to be organized, self-aware little columns of molecules. So. You know, pursuing ways to, to get the richness out of life and to build strong relationships and to you know, cultivate respect and to find pleasure. All of those are things that are really good for us and they'll help us to make a better world. They'll help us build they'll. Those qualities are contagious. They they spread so an important thing.  Yucca: And that's really what these principles going back to circle into. All of them are really about. Mark: Yeah. So we're, you know, very interested to hear your perspectives on on these principles and any of the others that we went into in any of the previous episodes. Before we close for today, I would like to talk a little bit about the century retreat in 2022 which I've mentioned before, but this is really exciting. We are holding an in-person. Gathering of non theist pagans in Colorado Springs, Colorado from May 13th through 16th next year at a retreat center, beautiful place.  And what we're doing now is doing all of the organizing around it. But soon there will be, you know, more promotional materials and so forth. You can find out more about the event at the atheopagan blog, which is atheopagan ism.org. There is a post that's pinned to the top of the blog where you can read about what's going to happen there, but it'll be rituals. It'll be fellowship. It'll be workshops. It'll be hopefully some kind of a nature excursion, although the place itself is in a beautiful forest with a view of Pike's peak and all that kind of stuff.  Yucca: It's a primarily Ponderosa pine forest, right?  Is that that's the right altitude where it's at. Okay. Mark: So, I'm just really excited about this. I'm already about 30 people are signed up to go. We have slots for about 80 and of course it's, you know, almost a year until this is going to happen. But the sooner people sign up the. So the better, it will be. The event itself is going to cost about $300. That's for lodging and food and the event. And the log that lodging is in bunkhouse years. So it's kind of collective sleeping. There are some opportunities for private rooms for families that need them or people who have disabilities, who need an ADA compliant set up, or just people that feel a need to have a door between them and the rest of the world. Some of the time, those will be more expensive. But we want to make sure that people know that they are. So I'm frankly, at a hundred dollars a day for for this gathering it's really going to be a lot. The food is good. I understand. But trying to keep the event itself as inexpensive as possible, because a lot of people are going to fly,  And their travel expenses and so forth. We're also going to make information available about how people can buy carbon credits.  Yucca: Wonderful. Yep. Mark: The carbon impact of their travel. That's pretty inexpensive. It's about $10 per thousand miles of travel.  Yucca: Oh,  Mark: So,  Yucca: That's that's good. Mark: it is and it's, it's very doable. And we really encourage everyone who comes to do that because of course, you know, airline flight is it's impactful.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And driving is impactful as well.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So if you have any questions about that or about the podcast or any comments for us  Yucca: Any topics that you'd like us to dive into? Mark: yes, we certainly welcome those. You can reach us at the wonder podcast queue. The wonder podcast, all one word Q s@gmail.com and we look forward to hearing from you and we are so grateful that you spend your time with us listening to our little podcast here. Yeah. So thanks. Yucca: you.  Mark: thank you. Okay.  Yucca: Thanks Mark.

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S2E24 TRANSCRIPT: ----more---- Mark: Welcome back to the wonder science-based paganism. I'm your host Mark.  And today we're going to talk about relationships, big topic, lots to say about it. We expect this will only be kind of a first. Crack at what could be ongoing conversations on this subject, but particularly because relationships in the pagan community can be significantly different than mainstream kind of over culture driven relationships. We wanted to talk about that and what the differences are and some of the things to watch for. Yucca: Right. And also since we do enjoy talking about seasonal topics for many people, we're going into what's sometimes called wedding season. And this year there are a lot more than there were last year. There's people are still kind of holding off, but you might be going to a wedding or you might be having one yourself or.  Mark: You might be officiating at one. Yucca: exactly. Right. So not only for that seasonal reason, but also because this is such a human thing, relationships, whether it's a marriage or a partnership or a, I don't know what you would call a, a relationship with, not a partnership, but a  Mark: Well, because social  Yucca: social. Yeah.  Mark: you know, it's a sort of a social circle of friends, right. You know, we're, we are social animals. We evolved in packs and we rely heavily on the fact of the existence of other fellow people around us. And of course there are exceptions people who. You know, who are antisocial and don't really want to be very connected with other people. Humans are very diverse, but as a species, we did evolve that way. And so. And we're the way that we're built. When we reproduce, we have what is essentially a larval human, which is completely incapable of taking care of itself. And that requires ongoing relationships in order to support that child until they can care for themselves. And that requires many years of those relationships being attacked. Yucca: Yeah. So, so when we talk about relationships, We have many different levels, right? We can be talking about our romantic sexual relationships, but we also have the relationship between parents and children, friends, extended family work, all of those things. And the word relationship encompasses all of that.  Mark: Yeah, we have lousy terminology in English. I think I've talked about this before. We've got this one word love, which is supposed to encompass the emotional experience of all these different kinds of relationships. And then we have one word relationship, which is used to fill in the, the explained connection between people who are friends, people who are coworkers, people who are family, people who are lovers, people who are. Siblings, it just goes on. Yucca: so let's get into that. And let's also talk a little bit about. Why we wanted to talk about this topic, because this is a podcast about non theist paganism, specifically science-based non theist paganism. And sometimes it might seem like our topics are a little far off from that, but they're not right. This is all really connected. So, so let's get into that a little bit. Why this is so important.  Mark: Sure. Well, as I mentioned at the top of the episode, one of the things that I think about a lot, when I think about relationships with. Within the pagan sphere, is that fine? No, mentally we are a different kind of religious tradition and then the Abrahamic, right. Religions that drive the over culture, Christianity, Judaism, Islam. Those are authoritarian religions. They're hierarchical in nature with God at the top of the pyramid and they are filled with. Inherited rules revealed dogma doctrine, which is told to you for how you're supposed to behave. And that includes in your relationships. There's all kinds of stuff about, you know, first of all, there's very, very kind of siloed gender roles. So there's men and there's women and that's it. And then. There's a set of rules for how men are supposed to behave and what they're supposed to do, and a set of rules for how women are supposed to behave and what they're supposed to do, which is usually worse. And all of that is sort of handed to you and built into the assumptions that you have as you develop relationships with people at any level. Paganism is fundamentally different than that because it's not an authoritarian framework. It's a framework that's built around agency and empowerment. So relationships can become partnerships of discovery and evolution over time, and they have the opportunity to be negotiated in any terms. You know, the, the insulin. In a given relationship. Dad wants to be the caregiver and the, the, you know, house husband and do that and, well, great. No problem. It doesn't give anybody the willies the way that it does in, you know, some corners of, of the overall culture. The The things that people can choose to do can be much better adapted to who they are as individuals, rather than dictated to them because they are expected to behave a certain way. Yucca: Yes. Yep. And, and as always, this comes up in a lot of topics. When we talk about the over culture and pig and approaches, we are still steeped in the overall culture. And it's in so many ways that it's usually completely unconscious. And even though we may be coming from a different perspective, sometimes. We don't even realize what we're, what expectations we're bringing with us from society about gender roles or relationships, or, you know, what, what the, the expectations within a relationship, what those expectations even are and right. So, so think about. What constitutes cheating. So thinking about a romantic relationship, what's cheating and what's not cheating. Well, there's an answer on a societal level of what's cheating and what's not, but if your rules are slightly different than the expected rules, then it may or may not be, but that might not even be a framework that exists within your relationship. Mark: right. Exactly. So, because by definition, cheating means to break the rules, but if you invent your own rules, That are different than the over cultures rules. Then you can do things which the over culture might consider cheating. You don't because that's the agreement that you have with your partner. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: That's, that's the big difference. And so, for example, in pagan circles, we see a lot of polyamory. A lot of people who are having either open relationships or relationships with more than one partner and that means forming family units. You know, raising children together, the whole nine yards which on the face of it has a lot to be said for it in terms of attention to children and just the sheer available number of hands to do the work of a household, earning potential, lot of things like that. But the over culture will tell you that that's wrong. It can't tell you why it's wrong. It just tells you that it's wrong because it's sinful. It violates that that revealed dogma, that doctrine that was handed down and now suffuses our culture. Yucca: Yeah. So I think it's, it's really interesting to look at where we have those discomforts. Right. Like if you were listening to this and you had that discomfort of oh, oh multiple right. And examining where's that from is that leftover from the one man and one woman and they have to look the part and all of that, or, you know, perhaps there's somewhere else, perhaps you had a negative experience in your, or something like that, but, but often it comes from that from the Abrahamic religions. Being government.  Mark: Yes. And it's, it's challenging to conduct a relationship based on negotiated agreement. many ways, it's much easier to sort of lie back and kind of go with the model that everybody else is doing or nearly everybody else is doing. And the reality of course, is that as with all so-called normals, People are doing all kinds of stuff that isn't particularly normal, but they aren't admitting it. And they, and they are still, you know, keeping themselves looking respectable for their fellow  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Yes. Whoever's observers.  Yucca: Facebook friends and mother-in-laws and all of them.  Mark: exactly. So, but when you're in a situation where you don't subscribe to that, Revealed handed down doctrine instead where you say, well, okay, you know, I wanna, I want to connect with you and now let's talk about how that's gonna work and everything can be on the table. Now, some people run screaming from the prospect of that. I find it to be very engaging, interesting, and much more Much more acknowledging of me as a person in the relationship, because it says, okay, I'm willing to look at you. You yourself, you're a real person hood. Rather than I'm going to look at you as an example of this role model, and I'm going to relate to the role model. Yucca: Yeah. Yeah. So it, it takes more vulnerability. It takes that communication, that the true communication. It's vulnerable because you have to, you have to be looking at the actual person and looking at your ex at you too, not just looking at the role, looking at your partner or the other person as whatever role they're supposed to be filling, but looking at yourself, not just the role you're supposed to be filling and supposed tos with these big quotes around them. Mark: Yes.  Yucca: Yeah. And so it. Sometimes it can be painful to be, to really look at, have that presence and self-reflection to be able to really come to the table with that authenticity in that honesty and what you need, what you want and the difference between those and.  Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Where you messed up. Right. Being able to go, Okay. Yeah, I messed up, Mark: Okay. Yucca: right?  Mark: we, we agreed on this and I didn't do it. And whoops.  Yucca: Yeah. Or I, I put a little knife in the end of that statement and I really I'm sorry that wasn't okay. On my part.  Mark: yeah. Yeah. So, So we're, we're talking, w what we're really talking about now is kind of the, the beginning part of a relationship, which, and it evolves over time because you can renegotiate agreements, but what tends to happen when people first become connected with one another in, in some way, there are all these implicit agreements that they make about how they're going to engage with one another. And some of that has to do with sort of. Category of relationship. You're we're lumping the person into, right. It's like my friend, Gary is a dear dear friend of mine. I'm not having sex with him. I'm having beer with him. And we get together on about a monthly basis and enjoy one another's company and talk about things that matter to us in the world. And that is kind of our understanding of what we're going to do, you know, together with one another. It can be. Very helpful and healthy early on in a relationship, especially a deeper, more intimate relationship to really explicitly have that conversation about what the agreements are. In fact, you can even write them down. It can be very helpful to say, okay, we agreed that we're going to relate to one another this way. And of course, then you're kind of accountable. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Okay. Yucca: and it may be helpful to have that over several conversations. Right to, to not be putting yourself on the spot and let yourself feel through some of those things, because you might be talking about, okay, well in a romantic relationship, how okay you are with, you know, how open in terms of being able to see other people or not, or, you know, feel through what that really is for you, because what's happening in a conversation. In the moment, there's all the social contracts and the, you know, agreeing with the other person and not upsetting them or those sorts of things that when you step aside and really feel through it, it might feel different than what it did at that moment. And making sure that you have a way to come back to that and go, okay, so this is what we talked about and you know, I've been really reflecting on it and these have, this is what's come up.  Mark: this is.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: And I think that it cuts both ways. I think that on the one hand, it's important to step back and reflect on your own so that you understand what your, your true feelings are about, what has been suggested or proposed or asked for by a person who you're connected with. And, but the flip side of that is that sometimes, you know, you hear something and just go. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: And then have this terrible reaction and the reaction can be loud and explosive and inconsiderate. And and I, and I don't mean you podcast person listener that I'm talking to, or even myself necessarily. But a person, you know, sometimes when, when people feel very threat. They will, they will swell up and bark as that's what primates do when they feel threatened. They, they make themselves large and they bark and Part of the trick of maintaining an ongoing relationship is the ability to come back to that table and have a calm conversation afterwards about the thing that's really scary. And some people are more able to do that than others. But it's a really valuable skill to cultivate the ability to disconnect behaviourally from. A strong emotion that you're feeling.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: and you can say, you know, I'm feeling really scared and really angry right now, but I'm going to talk in a calm tone of voice. And I, I, I want to know more about this and I want to know what you're asking for. Okay. Yucca: I think it's, it's really valuable. You mentioned that it's a skill to cultivate  Mark: Hm. Yucca: this. Isn't something that. For born with this is this is practiced. It's, it's something that, that we stumble with and that we can get better over time. But just because it's hard now, doesn't mean that it's always going to be that way. Right.  Mark: Right. Right. And. You may find is that it gets easier with time because the outcomes end up not being the scary picture that your mind has presented to you when, when it was scared, the outcome turns out to be something that's more benign. It's, it's something that you can either embrace or at least you can live with. And that's just what, when you have those experiences a few times, it makes you less likely to go into that panic because you're not, your experience has been that when that triggered, since happens to you, It doesn't necessarily result in the disaster, the catastrophe that you've you've imagined it might. Yucca: Okay.  Mark: So a lot of what we're talking about here is we've been talking about agreements and one kind of agreement that people make implicitly or explicitly is about boundaries. Boundaries are really important in relationships because when we violate them, people feel violated. They, they feel that they've been treated badly in some way, and that can be. I mean, it can, it can be small things. It doesn't have to be big things. It can be small things. But if someone finds, you know, a turn of phrase, a tone of voice, something to be threatening or off putting to them, then they're going to feel like, Hey, you know, you crossed a line that I didn't want you to cross. Yucca: Yeah, well, and, and remembering that what is small to one person. Can be huge to another and vice versa that we are all different with very different experiences. And so our boundaries are going to be different as well. There may be some that are fairly universal, you know, don't hit. me with a car guessing that that's pretty universal  Mark: Don't hit me with anything  Yucca: No hit me with anything. Yeah. And then even then let's, let's have some very specific understandings around that.  Mark: Yes. Yes. Yucca: But yeah. So, so, but, but beyond something like that, there can be things like you were, you're saying the tone of voice or the type of language used the, you know, is it okay to follow someone? If they leave the room during an argument, things like that can be really, really key to work out because if we aren't emotionally and physically safe and our bodies don't really know the difference between those two things,  Mark: That's Right.  Yucca: we respond the same way. It's. I mean, it comes back to, what's the point of the relationship for you? If the point of the relationship is to be mutually nurturing? Well, that's not going to be a nurturing situation for any party involved, Right,  Mark: right. And once again, when we talk about boundaries, there's this whole template that gets provided to us by the over culture. And Yeah. Some of it is really pretty toxic. Like the idea that an angry man doesn't have to follow any boundaries that the fact that he's angry gives him justification and authority to do whatever strikes his fancy is as an action. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: That is, that is a subliminal rule in our existing culture. And it leads to a lot of violence, particularly against women also against children. And it's, it's a problem.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: So those inherited templates around, you know, how to be, you know, for women, you know, do you just swallow it all in and not say anything about how you're unhappy because you're afraid of,  Yucca: Or internalize it as your fault.  Mark: yes, yes. Very much.  Yucca: shouldn't have made a mad.  Mark: Right. Yeah. And that's, that's a whole other episode right there of, you know, just the, the terrible mind games that people can get into with themselves to rationalize abusive behavior towards the in the context of a relationship where you are freely negotiating your boundaries, there are opportunities. There are great opportunities to get your needs met. I mean, one of mine is I don't like to be yelled at, I do not want to be talked with in a really, you know, sharp, critical tone. And I just don't. It shuts me down. I don't want to listen to it. And this is a challenge between myself and Amanda, my partner, because her impulse is to yell when she feels upset about something. So, having a, a conversation about, you know, how, what kind of communication style are we going to agree on? That's going to make everybody's needs. Is a really powerful thing. And in the context of a pagan framework where it's about agency and self-empowerment rather than following the rules, we can develop agreements for ourselves around what those boundaries are and how we're going to treat one another. Yucca: Yeah. And again, it's going to look different for every, group.  Mark: Right, right. It is. It's going to look very different. And of course, one of the things that, that, that does, as we said, you know, you can put everything out on the table. And discuss what we're agreeing to, what we, you know, what we reserve to ourselves as individuals, what we see as a part of the relationship, what we you know, how we're going to support one another in, in having that relationship. And, but some of those things can be very scary for people. You know, the idea of sexual openness in relationships is terrifying to a lot of people because they're convinced that it means that they're going to lose the person that they love.  Yucca: Or that it's a reflection upon their value or worth,  Mark: yes. Yucca: Right, That, oh, somehow if my partner is looking at or attracted to, or has feelings for someone else that that somehow means that I'm not enough. And that's something that we really get taught from, from a tiny age.  Mark: Yes. Yes. The whole idea of the one, the soulmate is a terribly toxic toxic idea. For one thing, there are a lot of people out there that can be compatible with anybody else in there. There is nobody on earth for whom there aren't multiple possible compatible partners.  Yucca: And if there were, if there really was only one, that's quite depressing. Because your chances of inner of there's a lot of humans, your chances of encountering that one. I mean, they're what 8 billion, I  Mark: Yes, exactly. You know, here, here I am looking for the one and unfortunately she was born in Thailand and I will need her. That's the end of the story. So that whole thing, that whole. And, you know, mostly what people mean when they talk about a soulmate is somebody that they really feel that deep resonance with a deep connection of shared commonalities as well as real appreciation for the beauty of the person, for who they are. And that's a wonderful thing, but the idea that that person therefore has to be all of the things that we want in our lives. Pernicious. I mean, if you have someone who, as a partner is everything you want in your life. Good for you. Great. Terrific. But if not then in a pagan framework, it's possible to have a conversation and say, well, these are needs that I have, that aren't getting met. And I'd like to talk about how I can get them in. Yucca: Yeah. I think it's an awful lot of pressure to put on one person,  Mark: It is,  Yucca: right?  Mark: it's a tremendous amount of pressure to put on one person and people break under it. And what you w w but you end up with is a lot of divorce, which is what we have a lot of divorce. Yucca: Yeah. Or just unhappiness  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: And  Mark: a lot of people who are unhappy. Yucca: And an acceptance of that, that well, that's just the way it is, right? Well, of course you're, you know, that's just what marriage is. That's just what a partnership is. Or, you know, those sorts of things.  Mark: oh, in that whole awful genre of jokes about wives and husbands and you know, those sort of, you know, denigrating, you know, the old ball and chain kind of, They're just terrible. And it starts from the very beginning in the, in the over culture. I mean like the whole idea of stag parties, you know, is the idea is okay, you get to be sexy with, with other people for the last time before we close the gate on you forever. It's, it's silly and it's kind of gross and desperate and really unconscious.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: And what I, I dunno, I have mixed feelings about it, but the fact that bachelorette parties are becoming more and more like that I think is on the one hand, a good thing in that women are being able to own their sexuality more, but on another it's like, but it's a crappy model. Why would you know, why would you want to emulate men? Men are some of the most unhappy. You know, be knighted creatures in our, in our culture. They're only allowed to experience one emotion, which is anger and  Yucca: But even then Only sort of,  Mark: right. Only sort Yucca: Yeah. Yeah. Not really. It only in very certain circumstances. Yeah.  Mark: So, you know, the, the turning, turning, the available roles of women into the available roles of men is not necessarily a step forward. In my opinion, in all cases certainly the entrance of women into the workplace and into professional spheres and, you know, all that kind of stuff is really a tremendous step forward. Feminism ultimately was about choice. It's always been about choice. It's about women's abilities to make decisions for themselves about how they want to live their lives. And  Yucca: right.  Mark: well, yes,  Yucca: just right, because if it isn't everyone. then it's going to be no one  Mark: Right? Yucca: fundamentally. Right, And, and it's, and it. off on a tangent again, but it's one of the areas where I think that there's some times some missed understanding that people have that it's not just, we call it feminism because that's where the big problem was and how women and femininity and females and all of that is related to, but it's not the only challenge in society. right.  Mark: No, Yucca: You know, it's not, it's not, it's not saying that that's the only thing that matters and men don't matter and males don't matter. And all of that, like, no, no, no, no, no, No, no, this is less, but we've got a problem here. Let's take a look at this problem. And if it upsets you, that people are talking about the importance of women that's might not. be part of the problem.  Mark: Yes, you might want to, you might want to take a look at that, Yucca: yeah. Why is, why is that, So why is that? So triggering.  Mark: right?  Yucca: And, you know, we can tie that to, to stuff happening today with, you know, racial tensions and things like that. It's, you know, it's the same idea.  Mark: Right.  Yucca: But, but it sounds like you were talking about the, the roles that many of the roles that we have are very limited and toxic  Mark: Yes. Yucca: that it's on the one hand it's, it's a positive thing. That more people are able to be in different roles, but that maybe we also need to start breaking down some of the toxic roles that, and opening up  Mark: That's. Yucca: for people to be what they want without it being poisonous.  Mark: Right. That's really what I mean. And that ranges everything from being a sexual and a romantic all the way, you know, to being hyper-sexualized and, you know, highly, you know, I don't like this word because it's got a, you know, it's got a negative connotation to it, but highly promiscuous or, you know, relating with other people. Yucca: Can be highly engaged,  Mark: yes.  Yucca: might be.  Mark: Hi, highly having a highly diversified portfolio of, of, of humans.  Yucca: Oh, yes.  Mark: So, and, and once again, it comes back to agency and choice, and I really do think that this is the profound difference in terms of understanding human relating between the over culture and the pagan framework. At least as I've seen it practiced in the United and states Yucca: Well, cause we're doing it in other places too. So I think it's easier for us to. To look at everything that way, right. We're already kind of going against the grain when it comes to what our thoughts about nature and what are thoughts about divinity and all of these things.  Mark: right, right. Yeah. And. It seems pretty clear that the rise of the Neo pagan movement in the United States, because it was rooted, it was definitely bound in with the sixties counterculture. It was a movement of people who were going against that grain of people who were rejecting institutional doctrine, who were questioning Sort of Axiom of how the culture looks at the world. Certainly, you know, pulling up the floorboards and looking at all the bigotry that underpinned everything. So the pagan project has, has been one fundamentally of giving people. Personal autonomy and authority and agency to make their own decisions and then supporting them in, in doing that, at least in its idealized sense. That's what it's been now. Pagans are human. Like everybody else, people get scared. People have negative reactions, people, you know, discover that they really don't like the wife's boyfriend. They. They don't like him and it's not because he's the wife's boyfriend. They just don't like this guy. He's not, you know, he's just not the kind of guy that they like. So now what do you do, right.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: And that requires a lot of work and it requires a lot of processing and maybe things work out and maybe they don't. But the point is you got to make those decisions for yourself rather than just being told you can't even experiment in this realm because it's not allowed. Yucca: Yeah. It's not whatever, it's not natural. It's not moral. It's not legal, you know?  Mark: Right. Right. Yucca: Now one interesting area that I personally don't have very much experience with within the pagan community is that there. And I think this is, is somewhat falling out of fashion. But in, if we go back several decades, when there was much more focus on the God and the goddess duality, especially within WCA in particular, I think some of that did have influence on the, the communities that we're practicing in that and how relationships should look. But in a lot of ways, though, some of those representations of the God and the goddess were really. Based in the preexisting gender  Mark: Yeah. Yucca: constructs, right? Those gender roles.  Mark: Yeah, very much so. And that's why there is so much controversy now. And there are so many people working within WCA to, to dissolve that gender polarity and look at divinity as much more fluid. And as we do, as science-based pagans, understanding that gender and sexuality exist on spectrum. That that can be very, very nuanced and that's true throughout nature. And it's true for humans too. And that that's all great. Yucca: And it's only a tiny minority of nature that even does that.  Mark: Right,  Yucca: right. It's pretty new, very, very new. And, and it's, you know,  Mark: We're still ironing the bugs out. Yucca: oh yeah. And we'll see you in a million years, what happens with, well, we won't humans. We'll see you in a few million years. If we're still around, what happens with us? See how that goes.  Mark: Right. Yucca: So,  Mark: I we're, we're getting towards the end of the podcast now, but I'm I'd really like to invite people who are experiencing what they feel are actualized kinds of relationships, you know, where you have a good. Communicative. Negotiating collaborating kind of relationship with your partner or partners be really interested to hear about your experience with that in a pagan context and how your paganism informs you know, Your relationship. It's a whole other thing to talk about relating to family that aren't pagan when you are, we did an episode on that a while back. But I'll at least touch on the issue here just to, you know, so, so you can see that there's representation. Yes, we see you. We know that that's a challenge. It's really hard. Yucca: Yeah. I see the topic come up quite frequently about having a spouse with a very different religious view.  Mark: Yes. Yeah. That can be really hard. I would think. I, I don't know. Yucca: I would imagine much more so than having parents or children with different views.  Mark: Yes, yes. Yeah, that's a really tough one and, you know, For me where I am, my spirituality is important enough to me that I don't know that I could do that.  Yucca: I think for me, it's so entwined with my world view, right. That I don't know if that could the person that I'm with that. Our worldview. Have to match enough, at least that we are able to, to interact and have that, that we can come to the table and work out whatever's happening with us after week after week, because it's not like it ever stops. We've we, we keep growing, we keep changing. The world keeps changing way faster than we can keep track of. right. And so, I, don't know if, if. I don't even know how to separate out my religion and spirituality from the rest of me. It's so I don't see it as these separate boxes. He doesn't know who to talk about the physical, emotional, spiritual, like, no, no, no, that's all, that's all just part of me. That's all related and that's part of my relationship. Right.  Mark: Okay. Yucca: So it's, it would be. Yeah. There's just so much to, every relationship has so much to navigate because it's not just every single person does, but then when It becomes a relationship, the emphasis so much it's exponentially more complex. Mark: It is, it's a multiplier effect. It's not additional, it's a multiplier. And where people you add, the more of a multiplier it is. I mean the Emirates are famous for lots of processing, lots and lots and lots and lots of processing. And Yucca: And in that case, I would imagine that, and this is a topic to come back to at another point, but that some sort of formal structure for conflict resolution might be incredibly valuable. In a case like that, again, depending on the group, but, but even having a structure for two people for conflict resolution. But once you're starting to add more people in and then adding on layers of, of, if they're a household together, there's finances there's, there may be children. There may be all kinds of levels that get added on to that.  Mark: sure. There's just scheduling time for people to be together.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Which I mean, if you add children into the mix and everything, it can just get all very, very, very complicated. And then what time is available, you may end up, spend up end up spending processing instead of like enjoying the presence of your partner. So it, yeah, it it's, it's challenging, but the people that practice it find it very rewarding. And what I want to say is, I'm not advocating any particular style of relationship. What I'm advocating is that people have the styles of relationships that they want.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: And if that is a very traditional look, getting men and women in a household with children, that's terrific if that's what you want, but there's a range of what people can want and they should have what they want. Yucca: Yeah, exactly. And that, if that is what you want. that's what works for you. There doesn't need to be the shame around it. Right,  Mark: right.  Yucca: and, and there's, and my personal opinion, we got way too much shame going on. Right. You're it's always the damned if you do damned, if you don't, you know, you, you wanna. Be a homemaker and shame on you for doing those old fashioned, you know, not sticking up for your gender or whatever you want to be out in the world then. Oh, shame on you for not spending enough time with your partner or children or, you know, and none of that is helpful.  Mark: No. Yucca: Right. And It's hard to get rid of. Right. I feel it, everybody deals with it. Mark: It's been the primary enforcement weapon for the over culture for centuries, you know, the, the, the use of, of shame and not, not just like social shame, like the Scarlet letter, but internalized shame the sense of doing wrong because you're violating that doctrine that has been, you know, kind of. Beaten into you by the fact that you live in this culture, that you've seen it over and over. You've seen it in a million movies Noumea and I have a joke that polyamory would destroy most movies.  Yucca: Yes.  Mark: Because all the tension, all the conflict, you know, all the, all the love triangles, all the, it would just destroy the plot of many dramas, almost all the romantic comedies. It just,  Yucca: just, honest communication. Just say what you're feeling, you know, or common sense. Right. You know, put a drop of common sense in there. And that whole thing dissolves  Mark: Right. Right. Yucca: we have. Well, it, and the shame about the shame thing is that it doesn't serve anyone.  Mark: No. Yucca: It's not like there's someone winning. So to say out of any of it, we're all just suffering from it.  Mark: Right. Well, I mean, if you really buy into the, the mainstream framework, then the idea is that the shame is driving you to walk the straight and narrow so that you can go to that. But we don't buy any of that at, we just, you know, we don't buy any, any single part of that.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: and if you do well power to you enjoy that. If that's the path you want to walk, but what we're doing here is really key that happiness. Here in this world, but that we know that is here and Yucca: I personally doubt that there's anything after words. Right? I  Mark: yeah. Yucca: that we are a beautiful, wonderful collection of atoms that. Breaks apart and becomes part of another beautiful, wonderful collection of atoms at some point. But I could be wrong. I highly doubt that there is something, but I don't. But what I do know is that there is now  Mark: This is  Yucca: me. I'm here. This is all I know that I get. And I don't even know if I get tomorrow.  Mark: Right. So pursuit of practices and and values that foster happiness become very important because what else are we doing here? And it's not just our own happiness, it's the happiness of those around us. It's the happiness of the ecosystem. It's the happiness of the future, as well as our own Honestly, if this is all there is what other possible value set would make any sense, because accumulating lots of stuff, you're still gonna die. Accumulating a lot of power you're still gonna die. If you accumulate power and you use it for good, well, I can see some rationale for that. So, you know, I have a couple of friends who were in Congress and they're good people and they're doing good work and I'm glad that they're there. But I don't know. I just it's. Unfathomable to me, why people would clean to the guilt and the shame around their desire and around their wish to connect with other people and around their doing the things that they love.  Yucca: Okay.  Mark: it's just, it's not helping anybody.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: It's certainly not helping the people that are feeling. Yucca: And this, this relationship. I again, everybody's going to come into it with a different approach, different hopes from it. For me, it really just always comes back to it's about nurturing each other and supporting each other in that beautiful, happy, meaningful, joyous life. That's that's what it comes down to. And it's, it's not easy all the time. And the whole, the love will carry you through happily ever after. I don't really believe in that. I think that it takes work. It takes commitment. You're going to be pissed off. Right.  Mark: Right. Yucca: gonna do something that is just, what the hell were they thinking? And frankly, you're going to too, because we're humans.  Mark: Hm. Yucca: Right. And, and everything changes and, and being, being able to come back just to always being able to come back to that table with that honesty and that self-reflection and re evaluation is what lets us. Take this journey together, then help each other through it.  Mark: Right. Right. And not be alone  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: to feel truly seen and connected and valued. Over a long period of time, which, which will be an evolutionary journey. It will not be the same as when you started. So if you do decide to write down some agreements, I suggest you revisit them every few years, tear them up and start over because people change. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: And, you know, one of the things that we've seen with the Abrahamic religions is that once you write things down, they don't change their, you might reinterpret them, but they're really locked in on the page and you don't want to be locked in. You want to be having agreements that fulfill who you are at this time. Yucca: Yeah. They keep growing and changing like that river, Right. It's the same river or is it love that? Right. And you keep, it keeps readjusting itself. Okay.  Mark: Yeah. One of the really cool archeological. Fines in the American south is a steamship, a, a river steamer that sank with all of its cargo and was rediscovered in an Arkansas cornfield, something like a mile and a half from the Mississippi river, because that's where the river used to be.  Yucca: That's great.  Mark: It is really cool. They. Th all the stuff was there. And so there's now a museum and, but yeah, the river moved Yucca: So we'll come back to this topic again, but this was our kind of our intro, our thinking about relationships. Wedding season or reevals or all of that stuff.  Mark: And if you're doing those things, our fondest wishes to you and best of luck, and we hope you have a beautiful day. Yucca: Thanks, Mark.  Mark: Thank you. Thank you.

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S2E23 TRANSCRIPT: ----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-Based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts Yucca.  Mark: and then the other one, Mark. Yucca: And this week we are talking about herbs, about plants, about Wildcraft all that good stuff.  Mark: Yeah, exactly. You know, I was saying before we started to record, if you think about the stereotypical, which is hut, you know, they're out there in the woods, right. You know, all dripping with Moss and everything, and you step inside the threshold and you look up what you see are the rafters hung with bundles of various kinds of plants and herbs that are drying. Right. So pretty much a part of the whole tradition and archetype of the witch or the healer or the, the pagan to be to be working with our local herbs and. and to do that with, for a variety of different reasons. So we're going to address that today with the caveat that neither Yucca nor I is either a botanist or an herbalist. So we're just kind of nibbling around the edges of this, but wanted to make our listeners aware of it and give you our thoughts. Yucca: exactly. I think that that image, that archetype is really interesting in today's conversation because very, very few of us live in that context anymore. That archetype, that image comes from at least as stories about times in which we lived in much smaller communities when we've lived much closer to the rest of nature. And for many of us today, we live inside of, of very large urban areas in which the connection with the rest of nature is not so visible to us. Of course, we're still part of these cycles. We're alive. There's no way of getting out of that, but our society is set up in such a way that many of us are simply consumers. By what has already been produced. And then it just magically goes away, whether that's a flush of the toilet or you put it in the bin and that gets taken away by the garbage truck. And we just, aren't part of the production element, let alone the death part and the decay, which we'll come back to in the fall. When we come back to talking about compost and all of that good stuff, just cause we like to do things seasonally. But I think given that the, the connection with plants and of course not just plants, but fungi and, and all of the other very interesting types of life that there are that I, think that that can be really, even more potent in our lives today because it's missing.  Mark: I agree. I, I think so. And one of the things that struck me as you were talking about our urbanized environment is that the other thing that's happened is that we have really farmed. The expertise in various skills like medicine. And that's not to say that Western medicine is somehow wrong because generally speaking, it's not, it's very effective at what it's good at, but  Yucca: that's another conversation of, it's very good at it. Certain things not so great at other things. And hopefully we can start to address that.  Mark: right. But it used to be that medicinal activity was mostly the purview of yourself, yourself and your family. You kind of had to take care of this yourself. So if you didn't know anything about. The kinds of herbs that might help you, if you have, you know, a really terrible sinus cold or something like that, then you were just going to be miserable and maybe things would deteriorate from there. But if on the other hand you knew that elderflower is a really effective tincture for head colds and congestion and stuff like that. Then you could remedy your situation and improve your symptoms. So, that image of the, the herbs drawing in the rafters yes, it's part of the whole witchy aesthetic which is cool. We're into the witchiest. But it's also a reflection of a time when people just had to be much more self-sufficient because services were not as available. Yucca: and, and today it's, it can be  Mark: Cool. Yucca: a reminder and a symbol of, of that self-empowerment of taking back a little bit of that knowledge and that ability to, to take care of yourself and your loved ones and your, your household members.  Mark: Right. And, and I should say right now, I alluded to it a minute ago, but we are in no way suggesting that. You know, that you try an herbal approach to your cancer treatment or something like that. Western medicine is powerful. It's science-based it's peer reviewed science-based, which is about as good as it gets when it comes to our research and our understanding of the nature of the human body and its processes. And that is still a wide open field that we're discovering things about every day. So not everything is known by any means, but we are not saying you know, take up, take up this soft path, herbal medicine and give up on your, your family practitioner and know, that  Yucca: Yeah. We're definitely not trying to set this up as a, somehow it's a either or kind of situation that like everything in life, but it's nuanced and there are, there are appropriate times for each and seeing it as part of a bigger picture is really important.  Mark: Sure. If you're experiencing mild anxiety and you're unable to sleep a cup of camomile tea, maybe all that you need in order to solve your issue that yes, there are pills for that, but you may not need pills for that. You may just need a cup of camomile tea. Yucca: Yeah. And that's one of the things that later on we'll get into is, is bringing some of the ritual aspect into that as well, that, that cup of camomile tea tea, plus that as an, a component of your ritual could be really quite, quite soothing. Right? Yeah. So we've put that out there that we're not saying use, ignore your doctor's advice or anything like that, or, or shun particular kind of medicine or anything like that. But so all of that being said that the herbs and. Other types of life forms, again, getting into the fungi and some of the bacteria and things like that. They, they bring a richness and that there's going to be some which are going to be more widely known. Like we just mentioned Campbell meal. That's something that's can grow in many different environments, many gardens. And it's something that is widely available, but there'll also be things which are very, very specific to your own area where I live. We have OSHA, which is oh, you're nodding. Like you've heard of it before. Yeah.  Mark: I've had OSHA. Boy. Is it bad? Yucca: It is, you know, that, that bitter there's something to that. And yeah, w where I grew up, basically you have any trouble in here. They then make it pictures too, but just two on the route. And there's all kinds of really fun folklore around it too. And when I had my first kids, I was given several bundles of them, of people, swearing that you got to put them in the crib and put it in this direction, that, and put it in the car seat and all of the, you know, lots of fun things around that. But certainly you're not going to find that plant in say, you know, more than Canada, it's not going to  Mark: no, no, you're not going to find it where I am either.  Yucca: Yeah, it's, it's very specific regions and there's going to be a ton of plants where you are, that, that I wouldn't even know what family they were.  Mark: sure, sure. Yeah. I can't emphasize enough how dependent we are on on full Gloria and indigenous people in discovering this stuff, because honestly, there are plants that are deadly and there are plants that are delicious and good for us and medicinal. And somebody had to do the trial and error at some point to figure out which was which, and it took generations, many, many generations, and it took tremendous courage to accumulate that base of knowledge and, you know, indigenous peoples all over the world have their own kind of Pharmacopia of things that, that are from their local environment that they know how to use. So, I, I want to be clear, we're not in any way, encouraging a sort of cultural appropriation here, more that as in our previous episode where we talked about paying attention, Part of paying attention as pagans is knowing the plants of our local landscape especially the ones that are useful. So wherever you are, there are plants that are, that can be medicinal. There are plants that can be recreational. There are plants that can be sort of spiritually enhancing. There are plants that can kill you. So being aware of all of those and, you know, knowing their names, knowing their uses, knowing how they're prepared is something else that kind of goes along with the whole being a pagan thing. And that doesn't mean we're saying you have to do it, but the more connected you are into the fabric of the, the landscape where you live, the more deeply your earth based earth based spirituality will. Yucca: Yes. Yep. So what are some things that folks can do to try and deepen that connection?  Mark: Well, having a plant identifier, I think is a big deal. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm old and I'm old school, so I have a so I have an actual book, an identifier that will identify plants that I can take with me while I'm hiking, but there are apps that are pretty good. And some of them, you can just take a picture of a leaf and it'll tell you what you're looking at, which is pretty impressive. The but then of course, knowing what to do with that do you rub it on your skin? If it's poison Oak, you do not. If it's nettles, you do not. On the other hand, you can make a very effective dandruff shampoo with nettles. You need to boil them so that the formic acid is toned down quite a bit. But it'll still make your scalp tingle, like mad  Yucca: And the right time of year they're delicious.  Mark: are they? I was unaware of that. So you cook them like a leafy vegetable.  Yucca: Yep. Yeah. You want to get them and there's certain varieties which are better than others, but you get them when they're really young and tender and you boil that down really well. And it's wonderful. It's another one for women's health. And, and I believe that that's supposed to be high in iron and some of those some other minerals as well. So it's an example of, of herbs. Now, the nettles are one that again, are going to be found in many different areas because they've been spread there's different varieties, but for many of us in the north in north America that was brought over by the settlers and then it went wild and you can find it all over. Now there's a lot of other like Mullins and, and some of other ones that are the same where they weren't from here, but now you can find them doing just fine.  Mark: Like, in my area, fennel, for example, is a highly invasive universally seen plant and phenols delicious,  Yucca: Another delicious. Yeah.  Mark: You just, you roast the fennel bulb and it's got that, you know, kind of smokey licoricey flavor. And it's, it's great. It makes a wonderful side dish. Yucca: Tim use it a lot. Like you would celery or like a turnip or something like that in your stews. Yeah.  Mark: this, got the same kind of crunch or a leak. It's got the same kind of texture and crunch, but it's got that unique licorice sort of flavor. So that, that's an important point that you make Yucca, which is that the Americas are really heavily impacted by invasive species. Native landscapes are few and far between at this point because European and Asian varieties have invaded and have taken over because they have no natural predators. So they just. In some cases, we find that problematic enough that we actually try to control or eradicate them. But in many cases like fennel they're not really doing any harm other than to the fabric of the ecosystem, which we don't tend to prioritize very much. So we allow them to continue to spread. Yucca: Yeah, well, it, and it really depends on the particular plant because there are some that fit nicely into the community and function well as part of the ecosystem. And there are others, which out-compete because they don't have those predators, they don't have that balance. And that's where we run into some pretty major challenges because they can have their function when managed properly. But when there isn't that management, whether it's us or their natural management, it can be very destructive.  Mark: Yes. I think nettles are a good example of that because there really isn't anything in north America that wants to eat a nettle because they have needles that are full of formic acid and it's very uncomfortable. But where they come from, I'm certain, there's something that needs them, whether it's a bacterium that kills them or something  Yucca: there simply must be it. Yeah.  Mark: be Yucca: That's if it's been around for awhile,  Mark: okay. Yucca: that's what nature does that? It's, there's an open niche right there and whoever feels that's going to have their advantage, they're going to grow and, and it works itself out  Mark: Right.  Yucca: and  Mark: Yeah. Nature of horror  Yucca: on a luck and it always does on, on the real big, long scale. But, but there can be a lot of loss and destruction in the meantime. And I'm of the opinion that as, as humans who are able to think logically and observe these patterns, that we have an opportunity to help facilitate that happening in a, in a less destructive, less painful way.  Mark: I agree because it can take tens of thousands, if not hundreds or millions of years for the, the natural counterweight to some of these organisms to arise. And in the meantime, you can blow a pretty big hole in the fabric of biodiversity. And as humans, we don't really have tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands to millions of years to wait. Yucca: Well, we don't. Yeah. And does the bird outside your window, right. Or. You know, whatever organism it is. Yeah. As individuals, we certainly don't. So it's a tricky one thinking about, about the different kinds of plants. One thing I would encourage people to in their own areas that they, that they steward and tend to, to try and not have black and white thinking about plants that not if there's a certain type of plant, it might not necessarily always be bad or, or you know, that there's really got to think about the whole system. That it's part of an example in the community where I'm from is we have Russian olives and Russian olives in the riparian systems can take over. They spread really, really well because the birds loves the berries. They poop them out and then they grow everywhere. But they're also early succession species. They can really help to build soil. And so if there's one in a garden, it's not necessarily, Oh, it's evil. You've got to cut it down. It's Okay. Let's look at how is it interacting with the rest of the system here? I think autumn, all of in the east is a relative that this happens with too. It's a nitrogen fixer. If managed properly, you can be parting it, you can be growing your soil. You can be setting up the situation for later successional plants to come in. So one of the things that's important is just to think about the whole system that's happening and not just get into the, this plant is bad or this person is bad or that kind of black and white thinking.  Mark: Yeah. This, this leads me to a natural tangent, which is unrelated to our topic, but it brings me on to thinking about,  Yucca: tangent,  Mark: yes, there you go. Well, humans human thinking is associative. So here we go. It reminds me a bit of the so-called cancel culture where, you know, people who have opinions that a person does that someone else doesn't agree with are immediately kind of cast on the Ash heap and nothing they have to say or nothing. They do their, their kind of inherent worth as a person is denigrated. I, I just think that's very extreme. I th I think it may. Much more sense. It's fine. If you disagree with somebody, I've certainly told plenty of people to fuck off who I totally disagreed with. I, you know, I'm not interested in talking to you because you're racist, Trumpist homophobic, whatever it is. But that's not the same thing as just kind of persevering in character assassination and, you know, needing to drive the name of someone into the dirt. Which is something that I see on Twitter  Yucca: Twitter.  Mark: lot on Twitter.  Yucca: Twitter. and, and the like, Yeah. if that's, it's a really interesting area, because there's so much happening with that, I think that the cancel culture often gets shouted by certain corners of the media is a immediate way of trying to dismiss what people they're legitimate concerns. And I personally, I think. There's it's legitimate to say, I'm not going to Sue. I'm not going to give you the voice of the platform to, to, to be spreading really harmful beliefs in and misinformation about trans folks. Right. Right. But there that isn't the same as what you were talking about. Just the, the dragging someone through the dirt and the, and the real immediate reactionary. So there's just so much in there.  Mark: Yeah, there really is. One of the people that's been castigated for being transphobic legitimately in my opinion, is JK Rowling. And I will go as far as saying, I completely disagree with her on this issue. And I think that she is bigoted and I, I don't approve of that bigotry. I will not go so far as to say she's a bad person because I don't know her. And I don't know enough about her to be able to say that she's a bad person or not. What I can say is I don't want to engage with her because I choose not to engage with people who hold those kinds of views. Yucca: Yeah. And that's, I was never on anything that followed her, but if I was on Twitter or something like that and followed her, I would have unfollowed and said, Well, I'm not going to, I'm going to put my money somewhere else. Right. That's so that's where I stand with that. But it, you know, it's a big, I'd say I'm really glad that, that this is something that we're even talking about. I say that on so many issues, but then I'm so glad that we can even talk about these things now. And to have these fights, even if I don't like the way that people sometimes buy theirs,  Mark: well, yes,  Yucca: itself, right?  Mark: yeah, 30 years ago, if you suggested anything in support of trans people, you know, the whole world would land on you with both feet. And that would be the end of the conversation. So at least now there are these movements for liberation and and we can advocate on their behalf and be a part of them. Yucca: Yeah. Well,  Mark: So that was a tangent on a tangent. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: So we were talking about not having black and white thinking about plants  Yucca: yes.  Mark: and  Yucca: Or any, or? Mark: Or Yucca: Yeah,  Mark: you know, really,  Yucca: your neighbor, JK, Rowling, whoever. Yeah.  Mark: yeah. Which doesn't mean that you don't end up having very firm opinions,  Yucca: Hmm.  Mark: but at least admit some nuance. Right. You  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: even Hitler loved his dog that doesn't make him in any way an acceptable human being, but he did love his dog. So, that also applies with plants because, well, not only in, in planting a garden or trying to do a restoration project, but also in their use because plants are toxic to human. Many plants are toxic to humans in varying degrees. And a lot of  Yucca: we like.  Mark: Yes, especially the ones we like, we call them spices. Those are plants which have evolved to create substances, which will lead them to taste bad or to smell uninviting or to in some way, negatively react with the kinds of organisms that are most likely to eat them so that they can survive. We like,  Yucca: those organisms, if they're the right size.  Mark: Right. So we like to use many of those in small increments. And in fact, over time, spices have been pretty much the most valuable commodity in the world. In the middle ages, pepper was worth something like 12 times gold on a weight for weight basis  Yucca: Wow.  Mark: because it had to come from Asia. And this, this is in England. And if it came from Asia to England, you can imagine the the dangers and risks and and expense that was involved in bringing that over. Now we can go to the grocery store and there is a rack of spices from all over the world. There's cinnamon from Indonesia and there's there's cumin and there's Mason, there's coriander and there's cardamom and, and all of those cloves, all of those express chemicals, which were originally intended to make them either dangerous or at least undesirable on the part of, of organisms that otherwise would eat them. And so the same thing is true for humans. There are plants that will kill you, and it's really important in your local landscape to know what they are. of them produce nice looking, little fruits don't want to eat. I'm  Yucca: some of them are beautiful flowers. The poison hemlock, which was Eurasian in origin, but you can find throughout many of the woods in north America now as well. And I believe that that's the case in some of the Australian and New Zealand books as well. Basically anywhere that the Europeans went there, their plants went with them.  Mark: So this is kind of, where I'm going with, this is kind of a warning to, to know what you're doing. Don't make yourself a nice cup of cherry bark tea because it's full of cyanide and you don't really want that cherry stones and cherry bark actually have quite a lot of cyanide in them. You can eat the fruit. The fruit is delicious. But the same is true of apple seeds.  Yucca: Well, you'd have to eat a lot of  Mark: you have to eat a lot of apple seeds,  Yucca: Don't make a flower out of it,  Mark: yeah, there have been cases of people, however, who really loved the taste of apple seeds and saved them until they had a big cup full and then ate them as a treat and died. And it's just something to be aware of that particularly the reproductive parts of these plants are likely to have concentrations of toxins in them so that they don't get consumed. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Nature's clever evolution that Yucca: it, does it in both ways, right? Some of them, they want to be eaten because they got to go through that digestive track before and be fertilized.  Mark: right. Yucca: And others. Nope. They don't want to be touched at all.  Mark: Right, right. I think it's the, the stone fruits that are particularly toxic in the seed because they only have the one seed. If there's some kind of a critter, that's going to crack that open and eat the kernel out from the inside, then the, the reproduction is over. Whereas if you think of something like a raspberry, which is coated with seeds, that wants to be eaten because most of the seeds are going to survive through the gut and then end up being deposited. Yucca: Hmm.  Mark: It's just a different strategy. Yucca: Yeah. It's just amazing how many different ones there are. And then there are ones that don't even worry about being eaten, like the dandy lion that just says I'm going to make a lot and I'm just going to float  Mark: yep. Off I go. Yucca: if I go. Yeah. Before we jump on. Just another reminder for folks we've been talking about plants and mushrooms are not plants. They're fungis. So they're much more closely related to us than they are to plants, but that's another one where many, many mushrooms are edible and delicious and some of them are toxic and will kill you.  Mark: Yes.  Yucca: And it's, some of them look very, very similar to each other. So we're not trying to scare people off from, from mushroom hunting or collecting plants, but just to be really informed about what you're doing. And for today, there really isn't an excuse not to be. We know that if you're listening to this podcast, you have internet access and it's easy to, to look these things up and, and find your local groups. Is going to be excited to, to identify the plant for you or the mushroom for you that you post the picture of or whatever it is.  Mark: that's right. There's a, there's a, a group where I live the Sonoma county mycological society and I've gone, mushroom hunting with some of their members and it is, it is amazing how excited they will get at finding a mushroom this long. That's got these little long tendrils on it and they know that they know the Latin name for it. And you'd think that they had grown up with this thing that they'd known it on a first name basis.  Yucca: What an incredible kingdom that  Mark: oh yes. Yucca: fun are just unbelievable. And we start to get into reproduction how bear reproduction works or how there are many methods. It's just, it's just.  Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: Boggling. And then of course, how important they are to the plants and we start getting into the microrisal associations and it's just,  Mark: And the, the lichens and other sort of commensal relationships and everything. Okay. Yucca: That's one of the things in my area it's very, very dry, but we have so many different kinds of like, and it's, it's just, it's staggering and fungi and lichen. And so like in our several, usually several fungi and some sort of photosynthesizer like,  Mark: Moss or Yucca: it's, it's, there's a single cell, so, but they could be prokaryotes or eukaryotes  often like a cyanobacteria or eukaryotic algae. They're completely left out unless you go to a very, very, unless you go to school for my cology, that's left out of the, the studies, right. You might do bought me one-on-one and have half a chapter talking about funding and they're not even plants, but they're so crucial to the functioning of our ecosystems, whether you're in a dry ecosystem or whether you're in the middle of the tropical rainforest, they're absolutely crucial. And we just don't, we barely know anything about them and what we do know just doesn't get taught. So  Mark: Hmm. Yucca: that's a, that is a rabbit hole to go down. If you are interested in, in things to check out. Mark: Okay.  Yucca: Okay. Mark: Yeah. It's it strikes me that as we're having this conversation, we are we're veering back towards. Wow. No with which we did an episode on a while ago, but we come back to that again and again, which is that we're just very excited about nature. Very you know, the, the beauty of it, the majesty of it, the remarkably intricate cleverness of it working within the laws of physics to create these organisms that just fit this perfect little crevice in in a completely complicated fabric. So, and that's another reason why getting to know your local plants and having somewhat of a relationship with them is also really a value because then when you are out hiking in the woods and you see aha there's miner's lettuce then you know, well, I, I can eat that. That's, that's actually pretty tasty, especially early in the spring when it first sprouts out. It's a very, very nice vegetable. And it's like meeting an old friend. So it's, it's kind of cool that way. She'll still, we talk about preserving things a little bit. Yucca: Yeah. So there are many different methods, but one of the easiest ways, which we've already mentioned several times and here's that the image of the hanging herbs, but is simply drying. So this is going to work with, with your herbaceous plants very well. So your mints you know, oregano and things like that.  Mark: Yeah. So you want to hang them upside down so that the moisture drains to the end of the, the branches and leaves and then slowly evaporates out.  Yucca: For quickly, if you're in the Southwest  Mark: yes, or quickly what that does, is it concentrates the various useful oils and compounds into the, the lower parts of the plant. And that's the part that you want to use for making your tea or whatever it is. You can learn. Oh, go ahead. Yucca: I wasn't, you don't want to do that in direct sunlight. So you don't do this in your window is pretty, as it might look, you, you want to do a spine for there to be light in the room. Although dark is better, but take it somewhere away from the window. That's still gonna be.  Mark: right, right. Okay.  Yucca: Continue. I'm sorry.  Mark: Well, I'm just thinking, I was thinking of some other examples of the kinds of things he might do that with various kinds of mints. Of course, they're very useful. Mint is very invasive where I am, so we have some in our backyard and we will always, as long as we're here, we will have access to as much mint as we want. But for people that don't have access to it, if you find peppermint or spearmint you can, you can cut it and then hang it upside down. And it makes a very nice tea.  Yucca: Okay.  Mark: elder flowers are another very common like cold remedy, cold symptom remedy. It doesn't cure the cold of course, but it kind of eases the symptoms and elderberry syrup, elderflower syrup are also used quite a bit for for coughs and throw them. Yucca: And elder is often used as an ornamental. So you'd be surprised where you can find it. Of course, you want to be mindful that it's not getting sprayed with something, but that shrubby that beautiful green shrubby looking thing with the pretty flowers that, that depends on the, the variety, what color, but often like a beautiful white might end up being elder, say they're all over.  Mark: the things, that's, that's a, that's a happy accident. The things people will plant are really kind of amazing to me. People plant privet, which is unbelievably invasive and really annoying. That's just, it kind of sticks out all over the place. It's not attractive. It's I  Yucca: And when you, in that case, you're, you're meaning aggressive. They may be invasive to the area, but they're an aggressive plant. The way many mints, the meant family in general is just find it. all over the world. But when people talk about being invasive, they mean that it's just a very aggressive, it spreads, but through the roots and can take over and just be delighted to be wherever it is  Mark: right.  Yucca: at the expense of most other things you want to ground cover though.  Mark: Yeah. The meat is a little thirsty though, so it, it, it sits in a little low spot, which is right underneath the shade of a live Oak. So it's a little bit more wet they're over the dry months than it would otherwise be. So, and we haven't seen it expand much beyond that footprint. But there's still a lot of it. Yeah. Yucca: We're planting a lot from that family right along the border of our house now where we live, things do not grow unless you water them or they are from the desert because we just get, we normally get 12 inches of precipitation total. So that's rain and, and and snow, although this past few years, we haven't gotten anywhere near that, but, but we're putting it around because it's one of the very few things that will grow. And they're really, really strong sense. So going back to what we were talking about about those, those tastes and smells that we appreciate as humans that were actually designed to repel, insects, and herbivores from eating them. It's a wonderful barrier for keeping little unwanted guests out of the house.  Mark: Yes. Yucca: If you've got a You know, your wood box or something like that, sprinkling it of the mint leaves in the fall often helps to keep little critters out of it. That sort of thing, Mark: You know, I never actually thought about using using herbs in that way. I wonder what would repel rats we've had?  Yucca: they're not a herb, but they,  Mark: yeah, well, cats, cats, cats that aren't lazy. Our last cat was just like, no, no, I can't be bothered, but this one I think would be enthusiastic. Kiki's the new cat is she's pretty excitable Yucca: Well, those strong smelling or your mints, those are a great one, but they won't do it on their own. That can be. Part of your strategy? Close also, that's something that people will do, especially for ants and other insects that really rely on those pheromone trails. You can break that, that around the border of your house or the threshold to your door,  Mark: What I know has,  Yucca: a, it's not a silver bullet, right. I'm sorry. Continue.  Mark: What I know has worked really well for others that we never quite got around to doing is you can buy coyote, urine coyote, urine will definitely scare away a rodent. The the very impulse, you know, the, the slightest indication that there is a coyote in the area we'll make them stay away. So that's helpful.  Yucca: Hm. Yeah.  Mark: So we talked about mints, another large family that has many, many useful plants in it are the salvias or the sages. And they're, some of those are considered sacred by various indigenous groups. Some of them are just culinary spices that we use to, you know, flavor our pasta sauce. But if you have access to a variety of kinds of sages, those are really wonderful to hang up and dry because even in the, even in their dry state, they will perfume your air a little bit. You'll, you'll be able to smell the Sage on the air. Yucca: They're, they're pretty dried and they can really beautiful in the garden too. That's another one that is a great, depending on your stage brightening, great for having an, a pot that you can take with you when you moved to your next apartment and are tougher to get. For, you know, there's, there are some plants that are really easy and finicky and others that are much more giving and sages tend to be on the forgiving  Mark: They tend to be on the Hardy side, as long as you don't over-water them too much. They will get root rot if you consistently over-water them. But if you just over-water them once in a while, they'll perk up and be very happy and think they've been in a big rainstorm. So other ways of preparing herbs are to make tinctures, which are usually in alcohol,  Yucca: yeah.  Mark: Not wood, alcohol grain, alcohol ethanol vodka is typically, you know, pretty useful for this purpose. If you want If you want very, very preservative solution, you can get ever clear, which is about 85% ethanol and 15% water. It's the water content that leads to the deterioration. So that's, that's the thing to be, to be concerned about. But people swear by various kinds of tinctures for different kinds of ailments. And you can do your research and find out what those are.  Yucca: And it's a use for all of those cool bottles you've been collected. Mark: exactly. Yucca: That's another one. Talk about the the stereotypical witchy. All those cool little shaped bottles and all of  Mark: I have. So many of them have so many of them and a bunch of them are empty. So that sort of undermines the whole purpose. I should be filling them with herbs and tinctures. Yucca: When dried a lot of dried things that you can from the garden you can dry and powder them and stick them in and you get, you know, beautiful you know, strawberries, for instance, if you have an overflow of strawberries, they dry and powder beautifully or carrots and things like that, or just, or powder herbs. So if you don't have enough space and you dried all that mint, you can take that down and crush it and stick it near your jar. Now, the challenge though, is that the more light they get, the faster they go bad.  Mark: right, right. Yucca: there's a off to how pretty you want your kitchen and environment to be and how long you want your things to last. But you're probably more likely to use them if you can.  Mark: That's true too true too. So finally, we were going to talk about the use of herbs and plants in ritual. Yucca: Yeah. uses. There's also your personal relationship and association with plants. For me, it often comes down to smell the really strong aromatic plants are the ones that I have the strongest emotional connection or association with. So the Juniper, pinyons, those are ones in the penny on here are our local pine has just a dope to me, delicious smelling staff. I know for some people they don't like the smell of it, but for me, it's, it's the smell. Childhood freedom than wild, miss them, all of that. And that smell is just instantly, just instantly brings me to that sense of, of freedom. Right. And just a carefreeness. So I might use for my association, I might use that in a ritual. when I'm really trying to bring that out. else might have a very, very different sense though. So we're not the folks who are going to prescribe to you use this or this herb means this and this plant means this, right. It really is going to depend on you and what's happening in your mind.  Mark: Right. Right. What are your associations? For example, burning Oak leaves for me is this very autumnal, pastoral. It's kind of hard to describe, but it's, it's kind of nostalgic and it feels. It feels really good. It just, it feels really comforting. And I don't know, like if it's reminding me of a time, that was, that was really comfortable and wonderful, but I, I don't actually have a memory of that association with the two of them, but it's a still, you know, when, when I want to feel kind of comfortable and settled in my home, burning Oak leaves are often a way that I go, Yucca: Do you make up, do you do it in a little bowl or do you take a single leaf and kind of play with the candle?  Mark: I have an abalone still that I use for burning herbs. And what I do is I get a small piece of charcoal And then I can put the leaves on top of that so that they kind of smolder and smoke  Yucca: Hmm,  Mark: because otherwise, if they're dry enough, if you light them on fire, then they just go up and there's, that's the end of it. And you've got a big sort of smoke ball in your room. Yucca: which has its own appeal. What if you're right under the smoke detector or somewhere where it's dangerous. right? So a reminder to people in fire areas, we are in buyer's season. So be cautious about that and responsible.  Mark: Yes, please. So I think to kind of wrap all this up the, the plant and fungus kingdoms are wonderful. They're filled with a very interesting and unique and special and cure eccentric and curious kinds of examples. The, and getting to know what your local plants are, is a way that you can become more connected with the planet itself and with the landscape that keeps you alive. Yucca: And starting wherever you are, right. We're not saying to be a good pagan, you've gotta be able to name 250 plants from your area or anything like that,  Mark: And you have to have plants hanging in your kitchen Yucca: yes. That you harvested yourself under the full moon  Mark: with a silver sickle. Yucca: Yeah, no, if you're into that. Cool. But, but really it, you know, it might just be as simple as finding out, you know, what are the most common trees in your area, that tree that you notice, right? What is that? I might just be starting there. It might be if that's the, that's what you got digging a little deeper, or just being aware and depending on your personality, maybe letting that come naturally, maybe you're a researcher and you want to get that book or join those groups. Many of us are looking for ways to reconnect with other humans right now. That might be a great place to go with it.  Mark: Okay. It could very well be. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: So once again, this has ranged far and wide Yucca, but thank you for a wonderful conversation. I really, really always enjoy talking with you.  Yucca: Thanks Mark.   

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com White Wine in The Sun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCNvZqpa-7Q   S2E22 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm your host Mark.  Yucca: And I'm Yucca. Mark: And it is time for Midsummer. It is the summer solstice coming up and we're going to talk about that today. Yucca: Exactly. So. What it is to us in our particular bioregions and our particular practice. And just about it in general.  Mark: Yeah. I mean, this is one of those holidays that doesn't actually exist in the over cultures calendar of holidays. The, the, the winter solstice is pretty well-represented by all of the various winter salts to see holidays that happen around that time. But with the exception of the American Memorial day, we don't really have anything that  Yucca: Cool. 4th of July, sort of.  Mark: Yeah. Okay.  Yucca: Yeah, I think 4th of July. know it's a little bit later, but it's still kind of in that same time of year summary, holiday  Mark: Yeah, enjoy, enjoy the long evenings. That kind of thing. Yeah. You're right  Yucca: but it's still a stretch  Mark: right. It's not  Yucca: I mean, Christmas and winter solstice right there. Right.  Mark: And it's not like in some European countries where Midsummer is a big deal and you have all kinds of traditions that go along with that. Yucca: Who is, is it son, Juan they're in primarily Catholic countries. There is a St stay which involves a bonfire. On the solstice. And sometimes there's a tradition of the students burning their old papers and things like that at the end of the year to celebrate that the, that. the semester, the year's over.  Mark: Okay. I wasn't aware of that, but that's very interesting. Yes. I mean, this is another fire holiday very closely associated with building a big fire, which frankly I think is just an another excuse to build a big fire. I mean, people. People don't need much of an excuse to build a fire and have a big party around it. But this is another one of those. So we're going to talk about how we conceptualize mid summer or the summer solstice what we call it, how we envision it in the cycle of the year, the wheel of the year and the various cycles that we track. How that may vary from bioregion to bio region what kinds of rituals we do in our practices and that we're aware of that other people might do and stuff like that. So let's dive in. Yucca: Yeah. So question number one. Is it actually mid-summer for you?  Mark: Yes,  Yucca: it is. Okay.  Mark: It is, I consider the beginning of summer to be the Mayday holiday. And yeah, that's just so that the names Midsummer and mid-winter will otherwise they don't work. Yucca: But in terms of, in your bioregion region, your climate, has it been summer for awhile?  Mark: oh, yes.  Yucca: Yeah. Okay.  Mark: Yeah. For quite a while. And the, the transition in my region is very noticeable because all the Hills go from being green, to being gold, all the grasses die. And so, you know, you have this kind of golden brown color instead of the green of the winter growth. And that happens right around may day. So, it begins right around may the eighth. So that's kind of the beginning of summer and it extends and it's completed. The Hills are completely brown except for the green Oak trees. By the time we get to the summer solstice.  Yucca: Hmm.  Mark: How about you? Yucca: Well, definitely not. Mid-summer as in the mid point of summer for us, this is the beginning of summer. We, I live at a very high elevation, so dry, dry desert, but high desert. So 7,000 feet, I think that's a little over. 2100 meters somewhere in that range. So very high up. So really summer press doesn't begin until June to beginning of June is the beginning of summer feel. The last week of may, may be may is one of those months that can really go either direction where it's literally freezing the night before. And then it's very hot the next day. So this is the start of summer. And we've got a very, very short growing season, but this is when things really are getting into their groove in terms of the life coming back from the dormant period from the new life emerging. And it's a very brief period that we have in the middle of the year where we might have some green. We don't, we're, we're gold most of the time of the year goals and lots of red earth and all of that. And if we're lucky, it has not been the case for a while now, but this is the beginning of our monsoon season two. So the monsoons, really will pick up a little bit more, you know, fingers crossed in, in the coming months of, so June, July, August, it's been being pushed back a little July, August, even into September. But when the rains come is when the life that's just been hiding in gray and down below, just pops up into existence just into visibility. And so. There definitely isn't a sense of maturation yet, but everybody's still, everybody's getting into the groove. Right. And finally we're out of the, the freezes. So, but you still got to take a sweatshirt with you wherever you go, because it'll drop being high up. We'll drop back down into the fifties or so at night, usually. Mark: And you consider that cold. Yucca: Well, if your day was 90, Mark: Well, that's true. Yucca: right? If you were at 90 and then you went down to 50, but no, in the winter we get down into the teens, we get freezing and very cold in the winter, but it, but it's a pretty big drop between, you know, you're in a tank top during one part of the day and then putting your sweater on for the rest of the day. So.  Mark: huh. Huh. So, how do we understand this holiday in terms of the cycles of the wheel of the year? What is, what is its place? In our, in our. Symbolic understanding of it in the, the ritual celebrations that we do. Yucca: Hm. Yeah. Well, one of the things we've talked about before is our different approaches to. The wheel of the year. And for me, that approach, I'm looking at the seasons and then the holidays being the midpoint of those seasons is kind of the celebration as a representing different ecosystems or types of life, which are really, really critical for our own survival and for our, our experience of. The biosphere, which of course is much huger than, than we can even begin to imagine. We just live on this very thin little layer and we only occupy a very small part of that layer anyways. But the first summer is about. The arthropods for us, it's about the insects and   arachinids and myriapods and all those little jointed legged beings with their armored shells and lots of celebration, especially for the honey bees and the ants and all of those little creatures. It's that time of busy work that they are doing.   Mark: I, on the other hand tend to, I tend to think of the wheel of the year in two different dimensions. The first of which is the more kind of Wicca consistent, traditional understanding of the wheel of the year as the agricultural cycle. Right? So the holidays reflect food production at different times of the year. And. In the case of this particular holiday that makes this the holiday of doing nothing. This is the holiday of leisure because everything's planted, everything's growing. Nothing's ready to harvest yet. And it's time to just kind of sit around with friends and drink some beer and have a barbecue and, and go to the beach and just enjoy those long, comfortable days. And I consider those to be sacred activities at this time of year. It's it's important to have a time when, you know, you're just taking it easy. And, you know, storing up some energy for when you're going to have to work like crazy to bring the harvest in later on  Yucca: Mm.  Mark: the other dimension that I think of the wheel of the year along is kind of mapping the arc of a human life. So I think of birth as being equivalent to the, the birth of the son, the coming back, the return of the sun, starting at the winter solstice. So what, by the time you get to the summer solstice, you're kind of in the fullness of adulthood, right? I'm not. Not the sort of urgent, energetic learning, still kind of wide-eyed young adulthood of, of Mayday or bell Tane, but established, you know, building a family building career the, the kind of adulthood where you can enjoy agency. Right. You're, you're fully empowered to do all the things, you know, because you're well past 21 and now you get to make choices and you have to make choices and it's a time to just sort of reflect on, you know, what's it like to have power. What's it like to be able to make those decisions for ourselves and to plot out what we're going to plant, what we hope to harvest so forth. So, this summer solstice is a time of year when I honestly have fewer kind of formal rituals because the rituals are things like lying in a hammock with a Mohito.  Yucca: Sounds like a great ritual.  Mark: yeah, yeah, I totally agree. I think it's a very good thing for you. And so that's, that's the sort of thing that I look to do at this holiday. How about you? Yucca: Well, I think partly because what's happening in our climates is so different. It definitely is not a leisure time for us because it really is still that beginning. You're still getting. In the annual cycle, you're still getting the plants in the ground, right. You're still working it's that there and in the agricultural cycle. I mean, our cycle, our growing season is so short. I don't know. Perhaps people who live in a longer season might have more time, but there's never a time that you're not doing anything except the dead of winter. Right. That's but the rest of the time of the year, you're busy as can be with what's going on. But when it comes to the celebrations, it's for us, one of the really big times of the year. So it's up there in, in the celebration and awareness around it, as much as the winter solstice is. So it's like these two halfs of the year for us, the winter solstice and the summer solstice which we have playfully Called Hafmas. So there's Christmas and then Hafmas, which is, haf is Welsh for summer. And we use a lot of Welsh in the, in the home, but when you write it in English, it's H A f because the F is just, just a single V it's only if it's two F's. So it looks like half, like half the year. the split of the year and half. So the, the half year celebration. And so there's, it's also the time of year that we're outside at night a lot, even though the night's short compared to other times of the year, it's just so much more pleasant to be out. In the middle of the summer, around a campfire, looking at the skies and, and in the next few coming weeks, we're going to have some wonderful meteor, shower opportunities and all of that. And then we also do gifts this time of year as well. So we do gifts both sides of the year and the kids are really into that.  Mark: I'm sure. Yucca: yeah.  Mark: Well, that's great. So it does seem like there are some commonalities. I mean, it was interesting. I. I was reflecting when you were talking about how other than the dead of winter, you really don't have a dormant time in, in terms of planting and agriculture. And it occurs to me that where I am is so benign that people actually grow gardens through the entire winter. They they'll grow winter squash and leafy vegetables and stuff like that. And you know, maybe you get tagged by a freezer too, and you lose some stuff, but certainly in a greenhouse you can grow stuff all year round with no problem. Yucca: Have we talked about it before you and like a zone nine or.  Mark: I don't know what zone I'm in, honestly.  Yucca: You mentioned, you could get away with what most people would call a fall garden or a spring garden  Mark: Oh, for  Yucca: during the winter where you've got your, like you're saying your leaf fees and your, all your brassicas and things like that.  Mark: Yes, absolutely. And people do and you know, they're, they're putting in tomatoes by April  Yucca: Hmm.  Mark: and Getting tomatoes by July, right. You know, the early tomatoes. So, you know, the kind of a traditional meal for us around this time of year is the caprese salad response Sorella and the really good, fresh heirloom tomatoes and the basil leaf. And then you drizzle it all with olive oil and balsamic vinegar, and it's just awfully good. Really really good. And just super, you know, fresh that's, that's kind of the quality of everything right about now, you know, peaches are coming into coming into ripeness right about now. And there's, there's nothing more than the taste of a peach. That is the summer to me. Yucca: Yeah. Oh, oh, that just makes me hungry thinking about it. And I like the texture on the outside, the little, little bit of fuzz as you bite into  Mark: Yeah. Everything about  Yucca: underneath it. Yeah.  Mark: Perfect. Peach is about the ultimate food. If there really were a thing that was the food of the gods, I think it would be a perfectly ripe peach. Yucca: Yeah. Now they're in the, for us, they're in the grocery stores, but none of our, our fruit trees are bearing yet.  Mark: Okay. Yucca: Right. There's some that survived are late. Frosts have got their little, little green fruits just starting to grow that are about the size of a gumball right now, but we won't get those fruits for another month, at least on the earliest of them.  Mark: Wow.  Yucca: So  Mark: Wow. And, and, and that's, that's probably like plums and cherries, like those kinds of fruit or. Hm. Yucca: Well, we get a lot of the stone fruit do fairly well.  Mark: Oh, good. Okay. Yucca: The apricots are the ones that do the best and in my particular area, in fact, there'll be so many, we get those little tiny ones that people are asking you to come take them away because they drop and they make all those, the little squish. Yeah. Everywhere. Yeah. And then we, you know, apples and some Of those ones do very well. But everything has to be adapted to being in a very dry condition, dry, and then the very cold in the winter. So it's kind of both extremes.  Mark: Sure. And I imagine you you have a lot of competition from birds and other wildlife for the fruit. Once it becomes edible Yucca: Yes, certainly. So, I mean, there's a lot of things that you can do tricks the, the birds aren't so bad. Depending on where you live in, in the area where we are now the biggest problem with having an orchard is that it attracts bears and the bears will try and climb into your tree and they'll break your tree to get to your  Mark: Right, right. Yucca: the birds, you can usually you discover like a branch or two, and then they're pretty good at sharing, but the, the bears not so much  Mark: Yeah. Yucca: havoc. Yeah.  Mark: So how about rituals? Why don't we talk about some of the rituals that we might do at this time? I do have one that I do every year. There's actually an article about it on the atheopagan ism.org blog. I have a broom that I call a sun broom. And it's a handle made from Oak, a piece of Oak that I found in a nearby state park. And I bind, I cut wild oats, long, tall, wild oats every year and bind them onto this handle to make a broom. And they leave that out in the. Summer solstice sun all day long until sunset. So it soaks up all the sun. Right. So then if in February, when I'm feeling really kind of discouraged by the darkness and lack of light and all that, I can take that out and wave it around and feel better. Yucca: Yeah. that's great. Hm. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Well, we don't have any specific rituals like that quite yet. I think that maybe over the years, those might start to develop some for me, it's always been just this moment, taking a moment for the awareness. And of course like to S to set my alarm just for the moment of the actual solstice which of course could come at many different times of day, depending on the year. But, but long walks if you have a labyrinth or can make a labyrinth nearby, I think that there's just something about being out in the middle of the hot. If you're taught where you are, but the middle of the long summer solstice stay and taking that, that moment set aside, just to be aware of the, the continual cycle that conduct continual progression. We also Put up and it's evolving every year, getting more and more complex. But kind of like a summer Garland that has the big looks like a honeycomb almost cut out. So it looks like so instead of having like a, like a tree that we put up the celebration and put, you know, B related art and big cutout, The arthropods and spend some time studying the, the, just watching, like, if you've got a nearby little ant mound or big outman Mount, those are just hanging out with them for a little while.  Mark: That's great. I was just remembering something and now it has left me again. What was that? Yucca: it was a Garland related. Or  Mark: It wasn't either of those. Probably my ADHD brain went just somewhere else on something that only, that must be related in an associated way, but I could never track down what the path was.  Yucca: Was that moment? solstice.  Mark: I like to do that too. I like to know exactly when it's going to be an observed that that's happened as well. Oh, I know what I was going to say. This year is actually going to be a really special celebration for the summer solstice on the 20th because my ritual circle is going to get together in person. For the first time since COVID and I'm really looking forward to that. It's going to be just amazing to see everybody.  Yucca: How wonderful. That's great.  Mark: Everybody's vaccinated. And  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: over to my circle. Brother's house in Napa, and we're going to drink a bunch of wine and eat seared meat.  Yucca: Sounds great. Yeah. Yeah. That, that the community and this sense of, and that in person ness of the community is really that's wonderful.  Mark: So meanwhile, elsewhere in the world on, on the other half of the world it's coming up on the winter solstice. And we thought we'd talk about that for a minute. Maybe contrast what's happening there. You know, for our friends that are in the Southern hemisphere Yucca: just a reminder on that. There's often a missed perception that the summer solstice is when the earth is closest to the sun. And that's not the case. There are some planets that have very elliptical orbits in which their seasons. Are caused at least in part by the distance from the star, but that's not the case with ours. Ours is caused because of the tilt of our planet relative to our orbit around the plane of our orbit around the star. So it's going to be reversed depending on which hemisphere you're on for one hemisphere, it's going to be the summer solstice for when it's going to be the winter and the other way around.  Mark: right, right. Yeah. So, because the earth has now tilted the Northern hemisphere towards the sun where we get more direct sunlight and longer days. The opposite is Yucca: our position is such that we are tilted in that way, the earth isn't within a human timescale, wobbling back and forth.  Mark: no, not at all. It's it's processing around around a tilted axis. Yeah. So meanwhile, in places like south America and South Africa and Australia and New Zealand they're coming up on the winter solstice. Which is I would imagine a little frustrating for those that follow more traditional pagan paths because they get bombarded with all this stuff about you know, it's summer, it's summer solstice. It's Letha, it's, you know, in, you know, here's all this, here's all this, this stuff about, you know, Holly Kings and goddesses and Kings and all that kind of stuff. That makes no sense for where they are at all. But if you strip all that stuff out Yucca: I was going to say the folks in Brisbane, I think they've been having a really cold snap for what they typically have this time of year that, you know, they're putting on sweaters and that's quite unusual for that area.  Mark: huh. Yeah. Yeah. So,  Yucca: And of course, the other side of the year, too, when, when the Santa clauses out and yet it's the middle of summer,  Mark: Right. Yucca: summer solstice was Santa Claus and reindeer.  Mark: Which in gendered, my favorite Southern hemisphere Christmas song, which is called White Wine in the Sun by Tim Minchin. And it's a very moving song and it's also a non-theistic song. Not just in the sense of not having any gods in it, but it's, it's like goes into his disinterest in in theistic stuff. He's, he's very funny, but also very moving it's. We'll we'll put a link to the YouTube video in the, in the notes. It's a wonderful song. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Let me see. Yucca: So mark, have you ever spent any time in the Southern hemisphere?  Mark: I haven't, I've never been south of the equator. Yucca: I have not either. It's it's a dream. I want to go and. And see the other half of the sky and the other half of the earth.  Mark: yeah, me too. I'm particularly interested in Africa and south America. For some reason, I don't know, Australia has always struck me as being so similar in many ways to the American west that I just haven't. I mean, culturally, obviously not, it's obviously totally different. But in terms of the geography and the land shapes and the aesthetics and that kind of thing, it just looks very similar. So it hasn't drawn me as much.  Yucca: You know, interestingly, it's one of the places I'm very drawn to. I'm very, you know, I am very happy with where I live and it's home, but that's, you know, and when people ask, oh, well, if you had to move somewhere, right, where would you go? And even never having been there, there's just always a, well, well, I Really loved the look Of the Outback and of course. there there's a lot of different areas, but there's just something about it that just calls me  Mark: Oh,  Yucca: and weirdly Greenland as well. Very, very  Mark: Really, really attracted to Greenland Greenland and on, up into Cape Breton and those kind of far Northern Newfoundland, those far, far Northern areas in Canada. I'm also very attracted to along the Atlantic seaboard. But I think that some of that may just be, because there's so much contrast from where I am here, you know, I, I just, I like to go somewhere where things are really different,  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: and experience what that's like. Yucca: Well, I talked about this before, but we do have an invitation out to folks who anyone who'd like to come on and talk about their wheel of the year. That is, you know, from a Southern hemisphere perspective or a tropical perspective or, or, you know, maybe a polar perspective that would just be, be amazing.  Mark: It would be so  Yucca: will be interested in that.  Mark: We would, we would love to do that. Also, I wanted to announce because it's on the blog and we've been talking about it in the atheopagan Facebook group, but we are having a non-fixed pagan gathering in 2022. It'll be in Colorado Springs, Colorado in the United States, which is quite central for people who are Canadian or Mexican or from the U S and it's on March. I'm sorry, May 13th through 19th, 13 through 1913 through 16th.  Yucca: I think, Yeah. Let me Mark: Yeah. 13th through 16th.  Yucca: So that's a Friday through Monday.  Mark: yes, it's at a retreat center called love 40 and It's going to be beautiful. It's just, it's really amazing. We've raised enough in deposits in tickets so far to put down the deposit for the retreat center  Yucca: Just tucked into the Ponderosa Pines and. Mark: Beautiful view of, of Pike's peak and some national registry national historic building registry buildings on the site that are in the kind of classic rustic style including one called the Ponderosa lodge, which will be our meeting place for our activities. So it's pretty exciting. And there's all the details about it or that we have so far are on the atheopagan ism.org blog. And we, if you're interested in meeting other people of like-mind and gathering around a fire for rituals and doing workshops and just hanging out.  Yucca: and we'll be there.  Mark: Yep. We'll be there. We will be there. So don't let that frighten you though. We, we, we aren't harmful and it'll, it's actually going to be great. It'll be the first time we've ever met.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: so that'll be exciting. So, if you're interested in that at all, do go to the blog and find out more about it and keep watching that space because as we know more about what the event is going to entail, we'll be publishing that stuff there. So, I'm really excited about this. I think it's just going to be so much fun. Yucca: Yeah. And I feel, you know, Giddy just thinking about it. It's very,  Mark: Huh. Yucca: Yeah, it's, it's, it'll just be amazing to see people and especially after the year and a half or at that 0.2 years, that we'll all have had and,  Mark: right, right. I mean, especially after all of the, the shut downs of COVID and all that kind of stuff, and we have nearly a maid to plan for it. Well, yes, everything else. it's it's not  Yucca: What a year,  Mark: Yeah, at least the election worked out. Okay.  Yucca: Just need to get worried about midterms.  Mark: yes. Yes, but let's not. Go there right now. So this has been a great conversation. thank you Yucca, thank you so much. And to all of our friends out there listening wherever you are, I hope that your solstice, whichever one it is is wonderful and enjoyable and that you have a lot of wonderful things to eat. Yucca: exactly. And if there's anything that you want to share with us about your traditions or questions, suggestions that you have for the podcast, you can find us at. Mark: thewonderpodcastqueues@gmail.com. So that's the wonder podcast. All one word Q S. At gmail.com and we welcome your feedback and your questions and any input that you have so that we can make this thing better. Yucca: Well, thank you, mark.  Mark: Thank you, Yucca. Have a great week.

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   If you enjoy the podcast and would like to help us reach more ears, please consider leaving a rating or review on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-wonder-science-based-paganism/id1501228156   Event links mentioned and transcripts: ----more---- Atheopagan Saturday Mixer - June 5 - 10:15am PDT:  https://www.facebook.com/events/748671529133222/?acontext=%7B%22event_action_history%22%3A[%7B%22surface%22%3A%22group%22%7D]%7D   Atheopagan Sex Salon:  https://www.facebook.com/events/458783078686816/?acontext=%7B%22event_action_history%22%3A[%7B%22surface%22%3A%22group%22%7D]%7D   Free Spirit Gathering 2021 Online: https://www.fsgonline.org   S2E20 TRANSCRIPT: Mark: Welcome back to The Wonder: Science-Based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts, Mark.  Yucca: And I'm Yucca..  Mark: Today we're going to talk about the reopening after the waning of the COVID-19 pandemic obviously the pandemic isn't over and there are certainly causes for concern in many places about reopening too soon or places elsewhere in the world where the, the pandemic is still very much raging but in many parts of the United States with the advent of the vaccination and so forth we're talking about reopening and going back to some of the activities that we weren't able to do during the shutdowns. And so today we're going to talk about that and what we think it means for us and what we'd like to retain from what we learned during the pandemic and some hopes for what we'll get to do soon. Yucca: We certainly are not saying that the pandemic is over or that it's gone or anything like that, but we're in such a different place than we were a year ago today. We're just looking at very different futures. And. I would still really encourage people to be very, very thoughtful about their activities. But knowing that, if you've got the vaccine, if you're going to go spend time with people who also have been vaccinated, that the options of how to be safe are much, much greater than they used to be. Yeah.  Mark: Yes. I mean, we all know what the safe practices are now, you know, wear a mask, practice, safe social distancing, wash your hands. Particularly if you're not feeling well put a mask on and try to avoid contact with other people. It's not rocket science. And it works. We know that it works not only because we had far fewer fatalities from COVID than we would have if we hadn't shut down by a factor of hundreds of thousands of deaths. But also because we have indicators from other diseases that were stopped in their tracks last year, I was, we were just talking Before we were recording and the United States only had 2,300 cases of flu last year that were reported. Now, ordinarily we have 32,000 deaths from flu and millions of cases, but there were only 2300 cases reported throughout the entire country. So that's social distancing and mask wearing prevented people from transmitting influenza, which is a deadly disease. Yucca: Yeah. And in our household, our immediate household of four, which includes two very young children, we weren't sick at all.  And with little people are very good at getting sick and spreading sicknesses, nothing. And. That's because we, they weren't sharing snot with their, with other children. That's a big one. Right. But we also, weren't taking them to stores where they would be touching the shopping carts and then putting their hands in their mouths and then jumping on top of grownups and coughing in their faces, which is just all normal primate behavior. right. Mark: Right, right. Nothing wrong with it. And actually it does help to build a stronger immune systems in children to be exposed to a lot of different contaminants like that when they're very young. But of course, when something, this deadly is going around, you kind of have to make that take a back seat to safety. Yucca: Yeah, so we said eat plenty of dirt.  Mark: Okay. Yucca: That is one of the interesting things to think about on a societal level. I think that w we've really needed to make the choice that we made, but be very interesting to see the decrease in exposure to childhood diseases and things like that. How that, what kind of long-term effects that has on the development of our immune systems  Mark: Yes. Yucca: in a world where we already are struggling with over sanitized environments and in all kinds of things like that.  Mark: Right, right. So that kind of leads into what are the things that we learned? During this pandemic what were practices that we learned and what were adaptations that we developed that we would probably want to keep even as the disease fades we learned some things and we made some good adaptations. So let's talk about those now.  Yucca: well, I think what are the first big ones that the topic we were already on was the idea of masks. If you're not feeling well, I really hope that people will continue to use masks. If you wake up in the morning, have a little tickle in the back of your throat, but Hey, you still got to go to work. You still got to pick up food afterwards, all that, you know, throw a mask on and you probably are contagious. So you're being respectful to the world around you to have that mask on.  Mark: Right. Yeah. You're probably contagious. So act like it. Be considerate of other people. Because there will always be people in our midst who are immune compromised or for some reason or another can't for example, have a flu shot every year, or are particularly susceptible to some kinds of rhinoviruses and those folks need protection. Yucca: And you can't tell who they are by looking at them. You might be able to tell that 95 year old elder. Sure. But you know, I have a dear friend who can't take the, who's young, she's like 29 or something, but she can't take the COVID vaccine because of some pre-existing health conditions and is therefore susceptible, but you'd absolutely never know looking at this person. They look completely healthy, fit, muscles. Like they work out at the gym, all that stuff, but you just don't know.  Mark: Sure. Well, especially I mean, I'm thinking about it, my work we have a program for clients who are HIV positive. As a part of the healthy food delivery that we do through the food bank and with the new triple cocktail of drugs that advantaged in the nineties You know, these folks are fine. As long as they're taking the drugs that suppress the virus in their system. And, but they're still immune compromised and you wouldn't know necessarily whether they were up to 100% immunity, of efficiency of an immune system or not by looking at them, there's no way. So it's incumbent on all of us to be thoughtful. And if we feel like we're going to be contagious with something, put on a mask. Yucca: Yeah, And if we're going to keep doing this civilization thing, Where there's billions of us living closely together. Then that's just what we got to do. And I'm pretty fond of the lot of us. There's some that I could leave, you know, some that I could skip or maybe not spend time with, but as an idea, I think it's pretty good. Mark: Yeah, me too. Me  Yucca: Right. I think humans are pretty great in general.  Mark: Yeah. They are pretty amazing. Yucca: So there's that element? What for you, Mark?  Mark: Well, I mean, we're doing it as we speak. The zoom revolution has been a huge thing. The opportunity to speak with people at a distance cheaply with a visual, as well as the sound component is obviously very compelling for people because they've chosen to do it in many cases a lot more than they ever communicated by phone. You know, we need all those visual cues and as it is, we lose a lot through the lens. We don't get to see a lot of, you know, sort of faint cues that just don't translate through the camera. But I used to see my ritual circle every six weeks or so in person. And since COVID, we've been zooming every Friday. So I actually get to see them a lot more than I used to. Even though we can't be together physically and do physical rituals and enjoy one another's company and a meal and all that kind of stuff, which I'm definitely looking forward to. But we did in the atheopagan community. We do mixers every Saturday morning. Those aren't going to go away when once COVID is gone. And we've done a lot of in-kind online events, like death chats and sex salons and webinars and all that kind of stuff. And the fact that zoom has become this video conferencing tool, very robust video conferencing tool. That's affordable by pretty much. Everyone is just a great thing. It's really a powerful tool. Yucca: yeah. we, my siblings, for the first time in years, we were all together, so to say, on Thanksgiving, and we'll probably do that again. That was fantastic. And getting to see people and it's, again it's not the same as being in person, but it's a lot more than the phone and people can participate on different levels.  And zoom has also done something very interesting for education. Now people have very mixed feelings about distance education, depending on what kind of experiences they had. But it's has opened up a lot of opportunities for people to connect, to normalize that so that people in rural settings can have access to teachers all over the world. This is really big, not just within the United States, but for villages that are literally a day away. Where kids can get access through satellite internet, to an instructor. And that's something that has a really exciting it's really exciting for the future of people and education and all of that is that connection that is being built there.  Mark: Yeah, Yeah, for sure. And I have to say that just in the particular case of what I'm doing in working to get the word out about non theist paganism around the country and world, the fact that all of the conferences became virtual this year was a very big deal because I can't afford to fly to all these various places and make presentations and pay for hotel rooms. I can't possibly do that. And yet, This year, I was able to present to the Conference on Current Pagan Studies, the Seattle Atheist Church, a UU congregation in North Carolina. I have the Silicon Valley  (Sunday Assembly) congregation coming up. And both of us actually will be presenting to the Free Spirit Gathering later on in June. All of them through virtual means, and that is very powerful to be able to serve on a panel or make an individual presentation to people that otherwise you would never be able to reach it. It has tremendously expanded the capacity of what I've been able to accomplish over the last year. Yucca: And people's ability to attend those, right? So you were speaking at them, but people being able to go to them, the society that I'm a member of the Mars Society, our turnout was so huge and the feedback was great about it being virtual, that the decision is that we're just going to keep doing it that way, even if we can do it in person, you know, flying to Pasadena or Boulder or wherever is just, isn't a possibility for most people.  Mark: Right,  Yucca: right. I did it once. I drove to one of the meetings once and it was like, this was, this is great, but how many hundreds of dollars in gas and hotel and taking time off of work and all of this  Mark: carbon emissions.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Yeah. That really has been the experience of a number of conferences. I've also been to some conferences for work. That I've been to, the access level is just so much higher. And most of these events are free because they can be, they're not paying a huge amount of money to reserve a hotel and all of it's hotel rooms or a convention center or an assembly hall. They're not paying for a sound technician and a camera technician and all that kind of stuff. The level of investment that's required to be able to do an event like that is markedly lower. So, that's really a good thing. And I think that it's gonna pay dividends for us over the long haul. Because I think that like the Mars Society, many organizations are going to decide, you know, it's fun to go off and play in another city and stuff, but is that really what we're about is that our mission or is our mission to talk about the subject at hand? Yucca: Yeah. And not to say that there aren't in that there isn't value in the in-person interaction. I think that all of this has really highlighted how important in person interaction can be as well. But it's only available to a very select group of people. Where this equals the playing field. A lot for many people  Mark: And the technology is improving, zoom now has breakout rooms where you can have smaller groups where you're able to interact with one another in a more informal kind of way.  Yucca: And we're talking zoom, but there's plenty of other platforms  Mark: there are Yucca: that are very sad that they didn't get to be the one.  Mark: right. Yucca: But there's a lot of, but you know, I don't particularly use it, but FaceTime has got, is supposed to have gotten much better and Google Meets better. And what are some other ones, Slack and  Mark: Facebook messenger.  Yucca: you have.  Mark: Yeah. Wow. Damn it. I just did a commercial for Facebook.  Yucca: Sorry, we're just listing options. Yeah, so, I mean, that's all that's some real positives that we've seen.   Mark: That said. It was tremendously isolating. These were all adaptations that we made so that we didn't feel completely cut off from social interaction because we're social beings, we humans and the business of the world needed to carry on. We have all our various enterprises that we're doing, whether it's teaching or businesses or a religion or whatever it is, we have the things that we're working to. To develop and that couldn't stop entirely. So we just did what humans do, which is adapt. Yucca: People controlled spacecraft from their living rooms in their pajama pants. It's pretty cool. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Humans are amazing like that in that we push through and it's, and this is what we're living with today, but I think it's important to remember that, that humans have been going through hardship for as long as we've been humans. And we managed to as a whole, not all of the individuals, but we managed to make them make it through that and bring good forward and bad from those things. So,   Yeah.  Mark: Unfortunately, one of the things in the United States that's really become evidently clear in terms of the response to the COVID virus is that and of course I blame the leadership of the last administration for this a lot, but nothing can't be politicized. I would have hoped that in the face of a deadly pandemic, we could have pulled together. We did it the way we did after Nine 11 and done something collectively that would have benefited all of us. And it would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives if we had. But unfortunately that was not that wasn't the call that was made by those that were in a position to make the call. And so now, We have even more of a rift between those who believe in science and listen to experts and those who don't Yucca: some other things that maybe we can think about carrying on that I hope there's more of are some of the outdoor gathering and that's a lead into. What we're going to talk in a little bit about the looking forward. But I think that the outdoor dining has been great. The, when we have been able to see people, having it be in an outdoor setting there were some schools that very quickly and of course it really depended on the situation, but we're able to develop more outdoor classroom spaces and see the value in that.  Mark: And I think it's oh, go ahead.  Yucca: Continue.  Mark: Well, I think it's good for people to be outside generally. But I mean, I have a prejudice--I am part of a nature based religion. I think being under the sky and exposed to the sun and the wind and to have, you know, visible growing things around you is is inherently beneficial to us at a deep level. And I think a lot of people have been enjoying eating outside, but of course not maybe in January. Yeah. Yucca: Yeah, depends on your particular region. But yeah, there's, I mean, there's so much from that level of appreciation. Yeah. We talked recently about that in an episode. But also just getting more vitamin D just from a medical perspective. In the country that we live in the United States, states the majority of adults, and I don't know the numbers on children, but the majority of adults are vitamin D deficient. And I would imagine that's going to be very similar in much of Europe and Australia and particularly in, in the Northern countries  Mark: Yes. Yes. Although my understanding is that being out in the Sun, isn't that beneficial for your vitamin D unless you're wearing very little in the way of clothing, you just need the surface area. In order to manufacture the vitamin D. Yucca: A lot of different factors involved. From what time of day to your skin tone to the rest of your diet, if you don't have enough of the vitamin K, even if you get the D there, your ability to process it as effected. But , we're not medical professionals here. But my understanding is that even with clothing on that, there's still the benefit of just the hands and the face to be getting that. But again, that really depends on skin tone  Mark: sure of course. Yucca: And unfortunately, The, well, I'll just put it out there that for folks, if you're interested research sunscreen and the that's a big topic there, but the use of sunscreen can be problematic for actually synthesizing vitamin D because of the balance of what particular wavelengths are being blocked out and which ones aren't. So it gets pretty complex there.  And in addition to the vitamin D there's other factors involved with just light levels, even if you're not getting, even if it's not vitamin D the L the light that you have inside versus outside is so different. And our brains adjust for us. We don't visually see it, but if the difference is there, so.  Mark: indoors and outdoors. Yeah. I mean, it's a gigantic difference in terms of the sheer intensity of light.  Well, that was rather interesting tangent about light levels and vitamin D. So outdoor dining, outdoor learning outdoor activities. Good for you. Yes. Thumbs up. What else?  Yucca: Not an issue for me with my particular field, but I hope that  working from home is more normalized,  Mark: Yes. Yucca: Because there's a lot of reasons why there's some pretty big benefits to that. Again, not saying that we've got it perfect, and that there aren't things to work on, but cutting down on that commuting, giving people, respecting people as you know, people able to make their own decisions about how they manage their time and be in a healthier situation. And all of that kind of stuff is just really big. For the types of jobs that's a possibility for. Obviously if you are a chef or something like that, it's the working from home it's going to be a little more challenging.  Mark: right, right. And I mean, this was one thing that we really saw in that we, that should have been evident that we only learned during the COVID crisis is that the most important roles in many cases are low paid service positions. You know, that's really, what's keeping everything running, you know, people who are collecting garbage and recycling people who are interacting with the public in any of a variety of different ways, healthcare workers that, you know, those folks who are at most risk for exposure to COVID, we're also the folks that were least likely to be able to work from home. And. So we really need to be reconsidering the value of that kind of employment. And I would say paying people a lot more. Yucca: Yep.  Mark: if you're an essential worker, but you're paid minimum wage. Well, what does that mean?   But it just doesn't the formula doesn't work.  Yucca: Yep.  Mark: So,  Yucca:  So we've talked about just the idea of reopening some of the things that we hope will continue, that we will have learned and things that we think were positive that came out of this, but what are some of the things that you're really looking forward to as some of the restrictions lighten and it becomes a little bit more safe to have in-person interactions again.  Mark: Well, one of them I've already done, which is that for the first time in more than a year, my D&D group got together and played in person last Sunday. And we played for what was it? I think it was only six hours, but still it was a nice long session. We had a really good time. It was great to see one another. It was just really fun.  Yucca: Well, there's  Mark: that was cool. Yucca: nothing like leaning over to see what the person rolled. Right. He can't quite do that on the computer, but he can lean over and go, ah, oh, you got a one.  Mark: I rolled terribly all night. I must've rolled six ones in really critical situations. And particularly because my character has a very low strength, There were these strength challenges that I needed to do. So I mean, I literally just sort of flopped and flailed, my athletics checks across this set of stepping stones across a raging river. And other people kept having to catch me. And the whole thing was just really embarrassing, but. Anyway, it makes for a good story. Yucca: oh, that's awesome. Congratulations. To be able to be back in person and yeah.  Mark: Yeah, it was great. So how about you? What did some of the things you're looking forward to. Yucca: Well, Going to the library. That's a big one, especially with the little ones, getting to go to the library. And our libraries were great about very early on getting a setup where you could do a contactless exchange of books, but it's just not the same as being in the library. And. Just looking through the different browsing. and and we have some just very sweet little children's sections and the libraries that we have in our county.  And one of them has a rainbow hall that you have to walk through. That was there when I was a child. And it just really look forward to being able to just be there with the kids.   Also, and this is a while out because my kids are under 12, so there aren't vaccines for them yet, but them just getting to play with other kids and it not having to be a stressful situation. Cause we've been able to do a little bit with the okay have your mask on and remember but it's really hard to tell a two and a half year old to stop tackling the other kid because that's what they do.  Mark: Right,  Yucca: They want to tackle each other and they want to try each other's masks on and all, and you just, it's just like, No. So just this, the stuff with the kids, this is what I most really look forward to.  I mean, there's the part of me that says social anxiety that would be happy to never have to go into a store or inside of, you know, an office building or anything like that again but they're getting to see people and just not have to be nervous about strangers would be really looking forward to that.  Mark: Yeah. Yeah. I'm really looking forward to being able to get together with my ritual circle again. We've been together this Hallows, this, Samhain it will be 30 years. So we started in 1991 and until COVID we had just been rolling along. We live at somewhat of a distance from one another, so every six weeks was about what we can manage, but we just kept going year after year after year. And they're really my family. They're the people I'm closest to in the world. And I just so look forward to seeing them and then. Being able to hug them and hang out and have a meal and do our rituals and that stuff. That's really an important one for me. Yucca: Yeah. That's amazing. 30 years. That's great.  Mark: And we didn't even, it was formed by myself and my ex wife--who's still in the group--for a one-off Samhain gathering, there was no plan that it would continue thereafter, but everybody was so happy about that one that they said let's do another one and 30 years later. Here we are.  Yucca: Still doing another one.  Mark: Yeah. All the original members are still members. Plus we've added two more, three more, three more. Yucca: Well, you, as a group were able to do virtual rituals. It's not the same as being in person, but you were able to carry through during the shutdowns.  Mark: Yes. We've done a couple of virtual rituals since the, but not every Sabbath, not. I mean, we did Hallows and Yule. Those were the two that we did. Oh, we did something for Bridget too for the February holiday. So I guess we haven't missed very many. But anyway So I'm really looking forward to that. And also to the opportunity that opening presents, because I know that there are people in the Atheopaganism group on Facebook who live really in my local area and I've never met them and it would be nice to convene something. To do a gathering of those folks and, you know, get to meet them and know them. And if they're interested of course. Yucca: Coffee or a hike or something like that.  Mark: like that. Yeah. And see where that goes. Yucca: Well, and on that note I think we've teased the idea before, but there's very serious talk and planning beginning for 2022 to have a much larger gathering.  Mark: Yes. We still don't have a name for it. We've been calling it AtheopaganCon. I mean Atheopagan is too many syllables to begin with. You add an extra one and it's just outrageous. Yes, we're planning for a gathering sometime in the summer or early fall of 2022 in the Denver area, so that it's central for people in the United States to get to. And it's also a major airline hubs. So the air tickets are cheaper for people who fly.  Yucca: That time of year is just fantastic in that area.  Mark: it is. It's very beautiful. And there's there are, you know, Rocky Mountain National Park is right adjacent. They're just beautiful places to go. And it would be a great opportunity for us to socialize and share rituals and You know, share fellowship and maybe have some workshops or something, not sure about that yet. But it's basically an opportunity to invite people that have never met one another in person to come and, you know, meet up. And so, there's a lot of excitement about this. And almost nothing at this point is known about it because, you know, we've got to figure all that stuff out, like where people are going to stay and how much does that cost and Yucca: The logistics are pretty immense for that kind of thing.  Mark: They are, but. We are fortunate in that this amazing woman who I know in the, who lives in the Denver area, who used to do a big Pagan festival called Beltainia there until a couple of years ago. She knows all the venues. She knows all this stuff and she's super competent and organized and she's on the committee. So I'm very excited that this is going to happen. Yucca: Yeah. Oh, that'd be, yeah, definitely looking forward to that.  Mark: It'd be just so great. Build a fire... Yucca: yeah. it's this is just such an interesting time. It feels. It feels like, you know, you can see the light at the end of the tunnel, right. There's still a lot. And we got to keep on top of it and we've got to continue to be safe and responsible and continue for, to get the vaccine out to everybody. And there's still. Depending on where you live, much of the United States is doing pretty well with that, but we need the whole world, right? It's gotta be everybody. It can't just be, it just won't work. If it's just a select small group, it might protect you a little bit. I mean, getting your vaccine. Yes. We'll protect you. But if we don't have everybody, then we still have more strains coming out and all of that. But it was just such a, the feeling in the air is just so different than what it was with this feeling of uncertainty and fear and just heaviness that there was for last year. Mark: Yes. Well, certainly getting the vaccine was a complete mind changer for me. I didn't realize how oppressive the weight of the pandemic had become, because of course I was used to it, it had been going on for months and months. But when I finally got the vaccination, the second vaccination and realized that I can't catch the disease or that it's very vanishingly unlikely that I can catch the disease. I just felt so relieved and so free. Yucca: Wow. Yeah, I, after my 15 minute observation time I went out and had to just sit in my car and cry before I could drive home. Right. it was just, I didn't even know that that much. I'm getting teary, even thinking about now, knowing that there was that much stress and just held up, that was suddenly released. It was this is amazing. Mark: Yeah, it really  Yucca: can't, you know, and for me personally, I was. never concerned about my own health. Right. I know that there would always have been the case that chance that I could have gotten very ill from it. But if I had gotten it personally, You know, I'm in very good health. I probably would have been okay. But the fear of my family members or just anyone, I didn't want anyone to get it. You know, I never wanted to be that vector. And having the shot made, it was just such a relief and it was so. It was a release of that is if that fear.  Mark: Yes. And science being magical, right? I mean, the scientific application is applied to us and suddenly this tremendous cloud lifts off from us psychologically. So, you know, it's very much in line with our sort of understanding of science being amazing and transformational. We were going to talk some about Paganism in relation to the COVID pandemic and the reopening. And I guess my biggest focus is just on being able to do in-person rituals. I'm really excited about that in person feasts in person, of course, that all depends on my housing situation, which don't get me started. But. What are some other implications you think Yucca: They're variations on the theme, the themes we've already been talking about, but the increased sense of connection. And I don't know how much of this was just me tuning more into the community this year, or how much of it was the community, online, growing, and becoming more engaged and having more conversations. But it just seemed like at least within the non theist Pagan community, there was just such tremendous growth over the past year.  Mark: Yes. Yeah. There really has been a big flowering. And I think that a lot of that has been because if the only community you're going to get is online, then you're really going to look for people that are of like-mind and environments, where people are supportive and kind and so forth. Interesting. You know, having conversations that are of interest to you Yucca: I think that a lot of this gave the opportunity for us to really pause and do what actually matters because we were forced to, we were forced out of our regular patterns that, and when you're in your regular pattern, it can be really hard to stop and really evaluate and have the space to do that. And everybody was forced to stop in some way.  Mark: Yes. Yes. And I think that's one reason why the whole work world is not going to go back to the way that it was before COVID because there are a lot of employees out there who are going to think, you know, actually I value spending more time with my kids more than I do going into an office every day. And now that it's been established that remote work is possible, productive, profitable. There's just no argument that employers can make for those kinds of jobs that are able to do that against letting somebody come in fewer days or whatever it is. I expect that, especially in some of the big cities where there's a lot of technology industry, the commercial real estate industry is just going to tank. Because all of those businesses are going to downsize their office size. They're not going to need a little office or, you know, a floor full of cubicles or whatever it is for people who can be working remotely just as easily. And I think that's great. I think it, it's better adaptive to what people really want and that contributes to less stress and more happiness. And I'm all for that. Yucca: Yeah. There's so much, it's going to be, there's going to be scholars whose field is 2020 in 2021. What happened? How did this change at all?  Mark: you bet the great pandemic of the 21st century. We hope  Yucca: yeah.  Mark: so. A lot of 21st century left. Yucca: Let's hope it's not like the world war where we get to call it the first pandemic, world pandemic one. Yeah. I mean, but it, my hope also, you know, moving forward is that. I really hope that we learned a lot on a local level and on federal levels and on the teamwork between nations as well on how to handle this on a really big scale. Mark: I sure hope so. I really hope so because it, this pandemic got bobbled in a lot of ways, you know, nations that should have been, that had the technical resources that had the. You know, that had like the CDC and the world health organization, all that kind of stuff. Those institutions should have been in a better position than they were. And that was not an accident. Those were deliberate policy decisions that were made that undermined our capacity to deal with a pandemic like this. And then one came along. And so I certainly hope that in retrospect, we become much more vigilant about this kind of threat because an awful lot of people died and they died alone because they were contagious. And I mean, it's a miserable way to go and it was miserable for their families and it's just tragic. So. What else? Oh, I wanted to announce a couple of events.  Yucca: Oh, great.  Mark: yeah. The atheopagan Facebook group is sponsoring a Sex Salon next Saturday, June 5th which will be at 3:30 PM on Pacific daylight time. And that is a, it's a place where people come to talk about issues with sex and gender and you know, how they affect us personally, how we see them societally and the primary focus of this episode will this event, this is the second one of these that we've done. And we're looking at doing one every month. This one is a focus on what is a Pagan  approach to sexuality. What is, you know, if everybody in the world were Pagan how would that look different and how would our individual lives be different? How would our society look different? So that's where the conversation will start, but the conversation is always very interesting and fluid and it wanders all over the place. So, we had a fascinating very , moving heartwarming and really interesting conversation last time. Yeah. So I invite people to go to w we'll put a link to the Facebook event in the podcast notes. If people want to check that out. We're also going to do another Death Cafe which isn't scheduled yet, but we're looking at doing it in July and Alexandra Palmer is a once again, I'm sorry, Phillips is once again, going to help lead us in that. She's a death doula, who's a member of the community. And so she's going to help with that as well. So keep your eyes out for that to talk about all things, death related. We specialize in shallow and unimportant topics for our... Yucca: I mean, that's what you were covering some some pretty big ones there.  Mark: yeah. Yeah. Big stuff. But it's important to talk about in our culture really doesn't want to, not in any  Yucca: not directly.  Mark: Yeah. It does a lot of innuendo, a lot of talking around lot of  Yucca: Advertising  Mark: yeah, and a lot of just very unproductive allusion to sex and death, but not really confronting the sort of deep human elements of those things. So wanted to make sure that everybody knew about those. The Atheopagan Facebook group does have a mixer on Saturdays every Saturday at 10:15 (AM) Pacific time. And you're welcome to join us for that as well. We always have new folks poking their head in and checking it out. And we really invite you do that. We can put a link to that in the podcast notes as well. Let me see what else? Oh I was talking about the Free Spirit Gathering.  Yucca: That's right. That's coming up.  Mark: That is coming up. So that is on the, is it the 20th? I'm going to look it up right  Yucca: I believe we are speaking on the 19th.  Mark: 19th. Okay. It's on Saturday, the 19th  Yucca:  4:00 PM. Pacific 7:00 PM. Eastern.  Mark: Yes. And you can go to www.fsgonline.org to register for that event to see the schedule of the presentations that are there. We are on, as we said, at four o'clock Pacific time five o'clock mountain, six o'clock central seven o'clock Eastern, and it will be a panel on Godless Paganism. And it's a really great group of people that'll be on the panel. At least I like to think so. It includes two of us. And also Bonnie who does the Sedna Woo YouTube channel, which is delightful if you haven't ever seen it on atheist witchery. John Cleveland Host who is the editor of the naturalistic paganism blog. And John Halstead, who is the editor of the Godless Paganism anthology, and has written extensively about atheist paganism.  So, there it'll be the five of us and people asking questions and us answering questions about what is this whole non theist paganism thing about. Yucca: That's right. So it should be a lot of fun.  Mark: It should be a lot of fun and it's virtual, so they can't actually throw anything at it. Yucca: So. That's a lot of announcements and it. has been a good conversation. So thank you,  Mark: It has. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Yucca. It's always good to talk with you.

Atheopagan Zoom Events: https://atheopaganism.wordpress.com/2021/05/04/please-join-us-for-zoom-events/ Food psych podcast mentioned, by Christy Harrison: christyharrison.com   A few food and sustainability podcast resources: Sustainable Dish: https://sustainabledish.com/podcasts/ Regenerative Agriculture Podcast: http://regenerativeagriculturepodcast.com   Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S2E17 TRANSCRIPT: ----more---- Food Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-Based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts Yucca. Mark: And I'm the other one, Mark. Yucca: And this week we are talking about food. And there's a lot of different directions to go with this topic, but it was actually inspired by the topic from this mornings atheopagan zoom mixer. So do you want to touch on that Mark? Mark: Sure be happy to the atheopagan Facebook community holds a zoom in-person mixer every Saturday morning at 10:15 Pacific time. And it's It's something that you, as a theist pagan are welcome to check out. If you go to atheopagan ism.org, there is a post up right now that invites you to various zoom mix, various zoom activities that the community is doing. And so the links are there. Yucca: I'll put a link to that post in the show notes Mark: perfect. Yucca: so that everyone can click on that. Yeah. Mark: We We didn't really have a pre-set discussion topic for today's mixer, but we stumbled into this conversation about our personal relationships with food and with eating and all of the sort of issues around that. And the reason why that is pertinent from a pagan standpoint is that paganism. To a large degree is about liberation from the over culture. It's about getting those kind of disempowering authoritarian anti pleasure. Anti-sexual anti-women anti gay, anti black. Frameworks off of us to as great a degree as we possibly can and being liberated as people as a result. And so this conversation. I mean, it was just really lovely and everybody had something to contribute to it. And we don't really talk about our relationship with food. Very much. We get bombarded with messages, but we really don't talk about it much. And so I thought that for Yucca and me to have a conversation today about that would make an interesting post an interesting podcast for you folks to listen to. Yucca: Yeah. And so I wasn't present for this conversation this morning. But I think in addition to what you've just said, Mark, about, about paganism often being about this liberation, there's also a component of it being about connection. Connection with our world with the rest of nature. And food is one of those ways that we are connected. This is the primary way in which we relate to the rest of the biosphere food webs that's and no matter what choices we're making, we're tied in that way. And so there's a lot of. Really interesting directions to explore with that. Mark: Yes, I think so too. And we, I mean, we really only scratched the surface too, to some degree, much of what we were talking about in the mixer this morning had to do with people's individual feelings around eating. And we touched some on the dreaded D word dieting and the. You know, how hungry people feel. At various times, some people don't, aren't very able to detect when they're hungry. I'm one of those, and I'll talk about that more later. Other people feel hungry all the time and have a hard time differentiating when it's that their body really needs the food. And when it's that it doesn't. So there. Are some there are just some very interesting ways that all of this can go. And we're going to explore some of that today. Yucca: This topic could be its own podcast. It could be its own weekly podcast of paganism and food, but we're going to try and handle it a little bit today and jump into that. Mark: There is actually a podcast that I'm going to mention later that was brought up by someone in the zoom. I'm opening the chat now and I'll find it and we'll post it in the in the in the notes. but it's about. it's by a woman named Christie Harrison. And it's just a very sensible, healthy common sense, understanding about food as something that your body needs and people have different body types and they shouldn't all be trying to tailor their eating in order to achieve that body type. Just a very healthy perspective on on eating and food. Okay. Yucca: Great. Yeah. So we'll include that as well. So, Structurally let's start with the big and how to narrow down. Maybe we let's talk a little bit about food's role for humans, its role in society, its role in community. Mark: Well, where would you like to start with that? I mean, I tend to think in terms of social messaging and culture, I mean, there are a lot of, you know, just sheerly logistical things to talk about in terms of food, with the industrialized agriculture that we live with maintaining us and our population. And there are all kinds of problems with that things to talk about, but Yucca: And both of us actually professionally have some connection to this. Right. My background as an agro ecologist. So I work in primarily restoration ecology now, but that intrense was into agroecology and our relationship as humans with the rest of our ecosystem. And how do we construct and how do we work with the natural processes instead of. The trying to fight against them, which ultimately won't work out for us. Doesn't work out for us. And then you work in a food bank. Is that correct? Mark: I do a food bank now, but I worked for seven years for a wetlands Conservancy that also was working with land owners and working to develop sustainable agricultural practices. So, and performing restoration projects in the wetlands adjacent to these agricultural operations. So, I have a background in that as well. The. There's just so much to be said about the ways that our agricultural system needs to be reformed. And that could be a podcast of its own. Honestly, it could. And I'm sure there are some out there that are exactly about that, Yucca: There's some great ones. Yeah. Drop some links to those too. This will be a link heavy show notes. Mark: lots of different directions you can go with the subject of relationship to food. But what I tend to think about societaly in relation to, you know, this kind of big picture understanding of our relationship as individuals with food as part of a society. Yeah. Is the kind of poisonous pornographic kind of media bombardment that we get constantly. Of advertising, mostly of food that appeals to people when they're already hungry or malnourished. So it's heavy on fats, heavy on sugars highly processed and fast, right? That you can continue your maniacal capitalistic work load without taking too much time to actually enjoy.  Yucca: And these are all what we call hyper palatable foods that have been literally engineered to be the most attractive to us possible to what is coded into us evolutionarily, whether it's good for us or not. It's what it's getting our bodies to really want it. And it becomes very addictive on many levels there. Mark: Right. Many snack foods, for example, are engineered such that you cannot be satisfied in eating them. It doesn't matter how much of them you eat. You could stuff yourself with Doritos and you. They'll want more Doritos because their flavor has been engineered in such a manner that the hit of dopamine that you get from the taste of that particular combination is in itself addictive in the same way that gambling is addictive and other sorts of, you know, pleasure. Creating sensations are addictive. So it's really a problem. I mean, capitalism has taken on food in the way that it's taken on everything else. And it's decided that the best way to create a market is to create addicts. And that's not the healthiest way for us to eat. And addictive behavior is a pretty good model for understanding the way a lot of us relate to our food. Yucca: And it's not something that we can walk away from. Are certain addictions that you can cold turkey. Walk away from the cold turkey, walking away from food. Isn't going to, isn't going to last for very long. However it ends. Mark: try it. Yucca: Yeah. Well, there's it. And you end up with bulemia and And well, the word is escaping me. It begins with an  Mark: a  Yucca: a anorexia, Yeah. Mark: And binge eating and then starvation cycles. all of that is just so, so hard on the body and it can have this tremendous psychological impact in terms of shame and And guilt that leads to secrecy and terrible and distorted body images associated. There are just so many different ways that this addiction provoking non-health encouraging a propaganda machine really hurts us in terms of our relationship with our bodies and with food. Yucca: Yeah. And so that's bringing in another whole realm to that is the body image. And that has other elements as well in terms of our attitudes towards, Oh, we'll just get up and do some exercise or something like that. And often those messages are really not grounded in. In reality, they're often manipulated for advertising purposes or well-intended individuals who have it lucky in some way, projecting a judging upon others and placing value of the person based upon. Appearance and body type and confusing things where it's things are a symptom of a deeper cause when we start to talk about things like obesity that. Placing blame on the persons as they have some moral failure because they have obesity or because they have this or that and ignoring the actual causes and all of this, these yucky destructive messages that just get sent and taught sometimes spoken out loud and often. It's below the surface and just being communicated and taught to us and we're enforcing it ourselves, even if we don't agree with it throughout our whole society. For sure. The. The ubiquity of this, the universality of it, and the perniciousness of it is something that none of us can walk away from because. Even when we try to think about how do we solve this stuff? The first thing that comes to mind is some product that somebody has tried to sell us, whether it's eat yogurt and you two will be, you know, a slim blonde yoga mom, like, like the ones that are always selling you yogurt Or  become a vegan or become a carnivore or whatever. Yeah. Mark: Yes. You know, some. Very over-simplified by my program, by my podcast, you know, all that kind of junk. And it's just very hard to get away from. It is there are tens of thousands of opinions of varying levels of credibility about what constitutes a healthy diet. The truth is that one size does not fit all. What we really need to be able to do is to listen to our own bodies. And we are not taught to do that. And in the case of some people like me, for example, I can't do it because I'm on medications that make it impossible for me to tell whether I'm hungry or not, until I am ravenous. And then I finally twigged to the fact, Oh yeah, I haven't eaten for 12 hours. Yucca: Yeah. And th and there's many other situations where there are. Or hormonal imbalances where there's different forms of metabolic syndrome going on that get in the way of those natural signaling processes. That, that have been broken since childhood or even from when we were in the womb, because a lot of this we're discovering has much of the functioning of our bodies in relation to food and our metabolism is inherited epigenetically. So the, what was the, what was happening with our mothers bodies and even with our grandmother's bodies, when they were pregnant, has a huge impact. So. The idea of listening to our bodies is I think really key, but that's another one of those messages that gets sent out there as it's just like the solution. Oh, you should just listen to your body. Well, it's just, it's not as simple as that for many people that listening to your body is part of the process, but sometimes like you were saying, the body's not sending the signals or we haven't learned to speak the same language to be. To speak in a metaphor there. Mark: Sure be clear. I mean, we're speaking in a very dyadic kind of way right now about the body and the mind and the body and the mind are the same thing. They're all an integrated system. And if we have very strong opinions or fears or phobias or complexes or beliefs about eating and food and what we should be doing, that's going to color the signal. Those that we get from our body about what we ought to be doing. Think about it for a minute. Think about humans as they evolved on the African Savannah, did they eat three meals a day? Probably not, they probably just kind of browse throughout the day as they found food sources and gathered them in some cases when they wanted to treat them with fire.  Yucca: We probably had large meals. After a big key, a big kill that went on for a long time. We had a lot of it. And then we had to wait till we got that next kill or that next animal that we were built to scavenge and steal from the more competent predators than us. Mark: Sure. And in the meantime, we chewed grains and ate fruits and, you know, whatever else it was and tubers and whatever else we could find that were nutritious to us. So that's kind of what we were built for. And. The separation of productivity from the home into a workplace, which was one of the big innovations of industrial capitalism, forced meals to be compressed in time because we had to do work, right. We had to do work to get money to survive. So now we have this kind of codified three meals during the day thing. And for a lot of people, that's not the healthy way to eat. They need to eat a snack in the middle of the morning, in the middle of the afternoon, they just, they need to keep some calories going all the time. Yucca: Or actually the other direction as well. Some people find it very helpful to have more of a compressed eating window. So getting into the realm of, and of course this is. Neither of us are medical doctors. We can't be giving medical advice. But some people have found intermediate fasting to be very beneficial. That's something that has worked really well for me personally, is actually cutting back the number of snacks and the the kind of fast sugars out of my diet and finding that makes a tremendous amount of. Difference in terms of feeling level, blood, sugar wise brain fog, all of those things, but some people, depending on it also depends on your life stage. You know, are you pregnant at the time? Are you doing all kinds of things? And you know, what are the, what are you doing? Activity-wise what is your general macro balance? You know, it's not, it may not. B does the three meals or six meals or there's so many different directions to go with that. Mark: Sure. Yeah. And once again, this goes to, you know, what exactly is the goal, right? to my mind, the goal is to be healthy. And to understand health, not in terms of a body type ideal in the conversation this morning, there was, you know, around dismissal of BMI as a legitimate measurement. There are people that are stocky. There are people who are skinny. There are people, most of them over 40 who have bellies. I'm one of them. That is a natural thing that happens when your metabolism slows down and you start to accumulate calories. Cause you're not quite as fleet of foot as you used to be. Yucca: Or if you just look at athletes that are going to have incredibly high BMI's, right. Because they've some of them and there's different types of athletes, but they may be, they may look really wirey and mean, but it's all muscle. Mark: right. Right. Exactly. So they weigh a ton. Yucca: Oh, yeah, that was the case for me before I had my kids, I was doing Olympic lifting. Which is by the way not, it was not in the Olympics, Olympic lifting as a type of lifting. And I was, I'm 5'5", and I was about 160 pounds. And you wouldn't have looked at, you wouldn't have seen that with me. If you looked at me, I would not look that way. I was sitting in eights. Right. But my BMI was crazy because right. And that's, Mark: It's just not a measurement. That makes much sense. It tries to apply a single standard to people who are all over the map, genetically and in terms of their frame size and their metabolism and their genetic background. So, and there are actually some indications that there are some racial components to this as well. BMI measurements tend not to be as favorable for black people, for example And you know, this idea of making the generic person, a white person, probably a white male. You know, we see this Yucca: a whole story with temperature, with room temperature for that, by the way. Mark: Oh, is there. Yucca: Yes that is based on the ideal room. Temperature is based on the comfort level of white middle-aged men and it doesn't work for most other people. It works for that. Group, but other people's like, now it doesn't work. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: anyways, I. Mark: We see this in science and in standard setting quite a bit. I mean, the good news is that at least there is some people talking about it now, so that hopefully we can evolve those behaviors, but. My, my fundamental point at bringing it up is to free yourself from expectations around the BMI. The BMI is not a valid measurement in any sense. And even if your doctor is trying to sell it to you you know, push back, tell him, look, I have broad shoulders and big hips. I'm not going to fit your, you know, your entered for skinny people. Yeah. Yucca: I mean with, so like all of this, that there's context though, right? If Because we're certainly not saying ignore the health advice of the professionals that you're working with or what, you know, if you have the sense that honestly I'm carrying extra weight, it's not helping me. Like, we're not saying just ignore that. Right. We're saying but Hey, step back and take a look at the. The expectations, which are create the assumptions, which are creating the societal expectations around that. Is that legitimate? Is it actually valid to say that you're, you should be looking like whatever the supermodel is and by the way, that changes over the decades in terms of what the ideal body type is anyways. So, so again, we're not saying don't. Work on your health. Don't take these things, these biometrics in don't just completely ignore them but understand that they have a whole context. Mark: Yes. And that it's a cultural context. It's not a scientific context. I mean, you talk about ideal body types. I mean, who were the big supermodels in the 1960s? They were people like Twiggy who, I mean, they call her Twiggy for a reason. I mean, he's built like a twig. Yucca: Yeah. And if we do any, even the surface level research on her, we'll find out that there were, there was a lot of body image and health challenges that she was having. Mark: and, you know, skip forward five decades and look at Kim Kardashians, The absolute diametric opposite in, in body shape in every way. So these ideas of these ideals. Are not things that we can measure ourselves by. They're not there. They're arbitrary standards. They evolve over time. There's no such thing as an inherent beauty standard and trying to shoehorn ourselves into those can be really harmful. It can hurt yourself esteem. It can hurt your social relationships and it can hurt your health. Yucca: Yeah. And for everyone too, we just gave some examples of women. We've been talking about a lot about women when it comes to the societal expectations, but it's everybody right. It we, haven't gotten to a point where we're talking about that very much with with men and boys and masculine presenting individuals but it's there as well. And it's. And it's really toxic as well in terms of the messaging that we're sending everybody about that. Mark: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean advertising for food stuffs for men, everybody is ripped with, you know, with six packs Yucca: Yeah. And those photos they're wearing makeup, you can look up how to do, to contour your muscles, to make it look like you've got that. And then those pictures are usually touched up anyways, afterwards. I mean, it'd be unheard of for those pictures to not be touched up. Mark: Yeah, because otherwise they would be unhuman monsters. Yucca: And even on your Instagram and Tik TOK videos and all of that, those people are makeup and doctoring themselves up before they get on and make their video. Like, that's just the, it might feel more candid and real, but now this is their business. That's what they're doing to make money. And that's what a lot of this is the advertising around it. It's the making money, but then it becomes part of our beliefs and our worldview. And then we're pushing it on everyone from every direction and on ourselves. Right. Mark: So let's step back for a second and talk about the relationship with food in the household. Within, you know, family groups or, you know, groups of people who live together because that can be a source of a lot of stress for people Yucca: tremendous amount. Yeah. And a lot of directions when people have different needs, but people also have very different beliefs. When we get into the realm of diet, that's a place where some of the beliefs around diets are. I mean, it becomes religious. Just like, there can be some really extreme beliefs and there's a tremendous amount of misinformation that gets spread and really poorly done science that gets blasted by the media. So you can have this disagreement and uncomfortable relationships between people in the house and then people with very different needs as well, because although we're the same species within that. Humans can be very different. Even within very closely, genetically related humans. We can have different needs. Mark: sure. Because you're among other things, your microbiome can be very different. Yucca: Yes. Mark: even living in the same household, even being all members of the same family, you know, genetically related to one another. If your microbiome in your gut has developed differently with different organisms that are processing your food, then you're going to need different food. Yucca: Yeah, and that's a really fun new frontier in science right now is the microbiome is just amazing. A delightful, so that deserves its own topic and its own podcast. So, so there's that social interaction between the individuals there's also in terms of the talking about the level of. The kind of need for liberation. There's a lot of pressure with, especially on young parents on, on, you know, mothers, fathers, other kinds of parents, but it's, but at least from where I see it a lot with the mothers about this virtue signaling and the Like this pressure to get it all right. And as long as you do it, right then everything's going to be perfect. And your family, if you all eat the perfect diet and you all eat together every time and you eat this food and that food and the, then everything's going to be great. And I'm not saying that we shouldn't strive to be really healthy, right. And to be, have a really. Nutrient rich environmentally responsible diet, but the expectations there that get that we put on ourselves I think it can be really counterproductive that they can, we can really end up hurting ourselves more in that strive for protection for perfection. Then the, this, the strive for balance. Mark: Yeah. I mean, I think that's a general rule. it's not just a rule in to our relationship with food and you know, how we feel that we're supposed to be parenting the whole idea of absolute standards that are supposed to solve all problems and which, if you deviate from them, there's something, you know, some level of failure that is associated that's just for one thing, it's not pagan, it's very authoritarian. It's very sort of religious and kind of. It's a moral code about moral success and moral failure. And that's really not. What we're about. What we're about is living lives that are healthy and virtuous and empowered. And by virtuous, I mean adhering to virtues, things like integrity and kindness, right? Not obedience to an arbitrary set of rules and to the degree that we are imprisoned by arbitrary sets of rules. We're not liberated. So it's important for us to be asking these questions, you know, when my in-laws lean on me about, you know, some way that we eat in my household am I going to succumb to that? Or am I going to push back and say, this is what's working for us? And that's the important thing Yucca: Yes. So this is an area where I think that actually there's the potential for. A lot of empowerment and joy, and that's certainly how and in our household, there is a lot of joy around the food. And it's a place where we really find a lot of our connection with the rest of the biosphere. It's a place where that's really As we were talking about at the beginning, that we all are connected to everyone else through the food web. And this is, that's a place of celebration for us. Mark: Okay. Yeah, I can really see that. And I feel that myself, I mean, I'm grateful when I eat and and I don't feel guilty about it, even if what I'm eating is kind of crappy because sometimes I eat stuff that's crappy. I mean, I think pretty much everybody does once in a while. I don't feel guilty about that because I've seen what happens when chimpanzees find a beehive. You know, they go nuts. They eat every last possible molecule of sugar that can be had out of that experience. And that's fine for them because they're not going to find another beehive for another six months. It's not hurting them to go on a sugar binge that one time, because it's a moderated presence in their overall diet. Yucca: But the challenge for us is that we are now in an environment that is different than our evolutionary context. And. This the well wonderful framework for understanding this is ancestral health. That's something that I've found very empowering and might be something that people would be interested in looking into, but as looking at, okay, let's look at humans, the animal, and let's try and understand us in terms of. How did we evolve and understanding that evolution does not stop evolution has continued. There are changes that have happened in only the last few generations. There are changes that have happened in only the last few hundred generations that have significant differences. But there is a really strong mismatch between the ways that we live today. It's like we live in captivity in so many ways in terms of our Light cycles. We've talked about this a lot before on the podcast, in terms of the light, but also in terms of the food and the availability of the food that we have, that now, at least for those of us in the industrial world, that we basically have access to anything that we want any time, but our bodies are programmed to want specific, you know, we really want to eat all of those berries. Because those berries are only available for a short period of time and that's great. We get that food, but then we would have these long periods where we wouldn't have access to that. So it's okay that we would binge on the berries, just like you were saying with the chimps and the honey. And then also when we get into the exercise component, we evolved within a context in which we had to move around. We were very active. And, but so the desire to lay down underneath that tree or in today's context, hang out on the couch or in front of the screen, that makes sense contextually. But today we're in a very different environment. So, so there has to be some, we need to make some systemic changes or conscious choices around trying to help ourselves be more balanced with what we know. What we know the little that we know, cause there's so much more to learn about ourselves our past, but to match that natural cycle with our, with what we're doing in our industrial world. Mark: Right because our impulses are often wrong. Our impulses are often too, you know, piling tons of sugar and fat and salt because it made total sense in the wild. It made total sense for us to pile those in because they were rare and they were valuable and it was really good to get them. But now we have sugar and salt and fat surrounding us 24 hours a day and available with a phone call. So it. It's different. And the same as you say is true with exercise where our impulse to be slothful and conserve calories totally makes sense for an organism.  Yucca: Our ancestors alive. That's why we're here today. Mark: Sure. Why would you burn calories? Extreme for random reasons, like running on a treadmill? When. Then you just have to go out and find more calories, but in a context where all the calories are there all the time, then it totally makes sense to need to get some exercise as well. So, so this brings us down to the individual, to the personal and station this morning, I found very moving because it really was, didn't take very long before everybody so sort of started. You know, talking about their own personal situation with food and the feelings, you know, these are not mild feelings. These are intense feelings around relationship to hunger relationship to diet. And then it goes directly to the whole question of body image again, because. In our culture, we have come to conflate eating with how you appear and how you appear with how much you're loved with your value, with how much you loved. And for one thing, that's, it's just a toxic formula. It's a completely poisonous formula because people should be valued, not for what they look like, but for their inherent worth. But I think that it's. A really useful thing for us to be looking individually at what do I think about food is my need for food annoying. Do I find myself irritated by my constant need to eat? I know I feel that sometimes it's like, Oh God, the food thing again, it's just relentless. It never ends. Yucca: If I could just do the bar right. And for as much as I think about food and all of that, I would just be happy if I could just have like my little food bar and all I had to do was eat at once a day and then I was done  Mark: Uh huh. Yeah, because, cause we're busy, we're over busy in, you know, in industrialized cultures. There's a tremendous pressure on us to produce and food, especially healthy food is time consuming. And energy consuming. I mean, if you actually want to prepare something that's healthy from fresh ingredients, then it's going to take you awhile and that's time and energy being taken away from other stuff. And it's yes. And it's particularly hard when you're already hungry. But if you're like me and you can't really tell when you're hungry until you're starving, then the urgency of getting some food right now becomes really high. And then it's even harder to make healthy choices. Yucca: Yeah. And then there are our folks for which food has all of these emotional connections in terms of it's the, you know, they have, that's the way that their parent expressed. Their affection and love is that they would make the pancakes or go out for ice cream or or the food is become a way of an emotional coping mechanism. Right? You're feeling a little sad. You're feeling a little down, you're feeling anxious and there's that food. And especially when it's the hyper palatable food then it creates this dependency. We also have. Mark: when we were talking about this before we started to record that that when you eat food, that is really pleasurable, that really pushes your. Sugar fat, salt buttons. You get a spike of dopamine, the pleasure, neuro receptor, a neurotransmitter. And that is exactly the same thing that happens when a gambler pulls the handle on a slot machine. It is that momentary The you take the action and then you get the spike of dopamine and then you want another spike of dopamine and another spike of dopamine. And it becomes very hard to differentiate between I'm hungry and I'm conducting this addictive behavior because we're built to be addicted to food. That's a natural thing, right? I mean, our bodies were designed. To have an affinity for going after calories because otherwise we'd be dead. Yucca: presumably there, there were some of relatives of our ancestors that were programmed differently and now they're not here. Right. So, yeah. Now. Food though, you know, we've been talking about a lot of the challenges around food, but there's also so much opportunity for the deep connection with our household, with ourselves, with the, if you're the garden or the little pots of herbs that you have in your tiny little window or whatever it is for forming these really strong powerful. Connections and really strong senses and experiences. So there's a lot of potential for working with food. Very intentionally in ritual. We've touched on it a few times before about certain smells or tastes and having that move you into a certain state. There's so much potential there. Mark: for sure. Yeah, because this is a, it's a root level human function, right. It's not option. Yes Yucca: not even just human but animal, but yeah. Mark: Yes. The it's not optional. It's not however much we might wish it was going to be optional. It's not right. And so it becomes something that we need to be embraced that we need to embrace as a part of our animal selves. One of the things about we pagans is that we do understand that we're animals. We're not telling ourselves that we're some other thing that you know, was created in a separate category with a different moral structure than the rest of life on earth. Yucca: Where we used to be animals, but we're not anymore because we somehow ascended to beyond them or higher than them or something like that. Mark: We're no longer animals because we invented steel and guns. Yeah that, that's not really a pagan understanding of what we are as beings. Now, what I want to say to our listeners is there is no whatever your body is like. It's not wrong. There is no moral failure in. Having a body, a particular way. Your body is fine. No matter what it is now, you may have health considerations that lead you to want to make changes. That's fine. That's great. You can work with your medical provider and you know, anybody else to help you to do that, but there is no moral failure in the way you are right now. You're fine. And that's. That's a hard piece of work for a lot of folks, a lot of folks really need to work around that message for a long time, do ritual around it, meditate on it, work on it in therapy, because when you free yourself of that expectation about what your body is supposed to be like, and I'm not saying that I've done this entirely, but I feel like I'm enough free of it that I can kind of see what it would look like. Then your relationship to food transforms because it's not about serving your moral failure or serving your moral success. It's about doing what's best for you. As a living, being a living organism, the stakes are a lot lower because it's not about your self-esteem, it's not about your value.  Yucca: It comes easier to think clearly around it when it no longer is about your value as it is it as an entity. Yeah. Mark: yes. Your value as a person. So I mean, I wanted to spell that out really super clearly, because it's so important. It's just, it's a really big deal kind of thing. You know, in the same way that when we talk about sexuality, I want to tell people, you know, whatever it is you're into. There is no such thing as a fought crime. You, you are allowed to desire, whatever you want to desire. Even if what you want to desire is illegal. You're allowed to desire it. In some cases, you're not allowed to do it. And those are two different things, but it doesn't make you a bad person to like a particular thing. Doesn't make you a bad person to have a particular kind of body. Yucca: Or to eat a particular thing or to not eat a particular thing or to eat the thing that you think that you don't want to eat for whatever reasons when you slip up a little bit. Right. That might be, yes. That might be Contrary to your goals, your health goals overall, or your environmental goals or whatever it is, but it doesn't make you bad or you a failure or you, whatever. Mark: Right. And making changes in dietary choices for health reasons. It's not like it's not like, virginity where it's like you blow it once and it's gone forever, which I don't even Yucca: I, yeah. I think that's a weird concept anyway, is Mark: I do. I do too, Yucca: very heteronormative and yeah. Mark: Absolutely. It's more like sobriety. You fall off the wagon, you get back on the wagon, it's it. You know, and if you're conforming to whatever those guidelines are, the you're trying to meet 80% of the time. You're doing great. You know, it's not an all or nothing proposition and you don't need to construct every time you don't conform to whatever regime you're trying to. To implement as a failure, it's not a failure, it's just a choice he made. And now he can make a different choice, Yucca: Yeah, it comes back to that idea of how useful is guilt, right? It's if you're beating yourself up over and over, you know, what is it achieving? What guilt is there to do now? It's just making you feel bad. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. And we're against feeling bad. That's that is a characteristic of our religion that we need to say over and over again, this life is the life that we get and we want people to be happy. That doesn't mean you're going to be happy all the time. I had a loss this week, my cat died and I feel really sad about that. But We want people to be able to live lives of contentment and occasional joy and effectiveness and autonomy and agency in the world and getting into right relationship with food is one of the ways that we do that for ourselves at a really deep level. Yucca: Well, this was fantastic, Mark. Lot of food for thought so to say, Mark: I'm wearing my food for thought. T-shirt that's the name of my food bank. Yucca: Oh really? Oh, that's great. Mark: Yeah. The, yeah, this has been a really great conversation and I really appreciate having it with you. we will put various resources in the notes and welcome your feedback. this is You know, these kinds of topics are really pretty juicy and chewy for us. And we're, we welcome more of them to talk about. So, you can reach us at thewonderpodcastqueues@tgmail.com. So the wonder podcast, all one word, and then Q s@gmail.com. And we look forward to hearing from Yucca: All right. Thanks Mark.  Mark: Thanks, Yucca.