Podcast appearances and mentions of michelle yes

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by Hannah Davis (@rooted.with.hannah), a Registered Dietitian and certified meditation teacher who specialises in women's health, hormones, and autoimmune conditions. After being diagnosed with Hashimoto's while navigating early motherhood, Hannah shifted her clinical nutrition practice to focus on uncovering the deeper root causes of symptoms like fatigue, cycle irregularities, and PCOS. We dive into how nervous system dysregulation often underlies hormonal imbalances and why functional testing, mineral status, and emotional safety are crucial for true healing. From decoding PCOS types to understanding thyroid antibodies and the connection between trauma and calcium retention, Hannah offers a deeply integrative and compassionate lens for supporting women on their fertility and healing journeys. This conversation is packed with practical tools and fresh insights—don't miss it! Key Takeaways: PCOS is not just about ovarian cysts—it's a metabolic and inflammatory condition with many root causes. Nervous system regulation is foundational for hormone balance, digestion, and fertility. Functional lab testing (like Dutch and HTMA) reveals hidden patterns traditional labs may miss. Excess calcium in tissues may indicate trauma or over-supplementation with Vitamin D. Diet, stress, sleep, and gut health all influence autoimmune and hormonal symptoms. Guest Bio: Hannah Davis, RD (@rooted.with.hannah) is a Registered Dietitian and certified meditation teacher with advanced training in functional nutrition, lab testing, and spiritual psychology. She specialises in supporting women with hormonal imbalances, autoimmune conditions like Hashimoto's, and chronic fatigue through an integrative approach that blends clinical science with deep nourishment and nervous system healing. After navigating her own health challenges postpartum, Hannah now helps women reclaim their energy, resilience, and sense of safety through 1:1 coaching and group programs at Pivot Nutrition Coaching. She's especially passionate about working with mothers, self-healers, and cycle-breakers who are ready to feel like themselves again. Links and Resources: Follow Hannah on Instagram Visit the Pivot Nutrition Coaching website Book Mentioned: The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com  To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility  The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/  Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/  Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care. ------------- Transcript: # Audio: TWF 340- Hannah [00:00:00] [00:01:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey. **Michelle:** Welcome to the podcast, Hannah.  **Hannah:** thanks for having me. **Michelle:** So I'm very excited to have you on. We're gonna be talking about a lot of really cool topics, but before we get started, I always like to start out with kind of like an origin story and learn how you got into the work that you're doing.  **Hannah:** Yeah. I am a registered dietician. I've been mainly practicing medical nutrition therapy for the last 10 years in a more clinical setting. And you know, and then [00:02:00] I became a mom. I have two. One's almost eight, you gotta say almost eight. And the other one's, and the other one's nine. So they're really, they're really young and I, you know, working at the hospital part-time and I started noticing. **Hannah:** My own symptoms of, of things that just felt like off. And simultaneously I was also becoming more interested in learning about more integrative functional nutrition. And so that really led me down. It, it started off as, oh. A way for me to kind of figure out what was going on with me, because of course, like so many of my, the clients I work with now you know, you go to the doctors, you ask for some labs to be done and they just say, oh, you're absolutely fine. **Hannah:** You might just be stressed. You're stressed out, you're a young mom. Of course it's normal to feel exhausted all of the time and stuff like that. So, I just was like really interested [00:03:00] in doing more digging and so I, we got some training in advanced lab testing and more like integrative functional nutrition. **Hannah:** And so. From there I was able to figure out what's going on with me, and I, I actually have an autoimmune condition. It's called Hashimotos. And so that really affects, you know, your, your energy levels, your, your gut health, your immune system obviously is involved. So I, it was so incredibly validating and it really excited me. **Hannah:** I was like, I feel. If I can figure out a way to use advanced lab testing and combine that with my. More of my more clinical, you know, expertise and combine that together to really like, help women feel empowered about how to support their health and, and how they feel and their showing up in their lives every [00:04:00] day. **Hannah:** And so it just really, really excited me. So that's kind of what got me started with that. And then I, I pivoted towards, towards that about three years ago started my own virtual practice working more in like the women's health space. So like hormones, gut health, autoimmune conditions. **Hannah:** And then I, as I was doing more of that work, I was like, okay, there's. I'm seeing a common theme here. These women at their root, cause a lot of the time is nervous system dysregulation. And I got really. Tired of just saying over and over again. You know, you need to manage your stress a little bit better. **Hannah:** I wanted to be able to give them so much more than that. And obviously I knew that from my own journey. I really had to integrate that. And so, but I wanted to like, figure out how to help my, my clients integrate that. So then I became a certified meditation [00:05:00] teacher. And spent a year studying spiritual psychology, which is like a blend of Eastern ritual and practices with western psychology. **Hannah:** That, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So now I really like to supplement my, programs with giving my clients tools on how to regulate their nervous systems as well. And so, we'll, you know, you know, it's more of like life coaching almost. And then maybe we'll integrate some, some things like, meditation or breath work together. **Hannah:** It really just depends on what the, how the client wants to be supported. So  **Michelle:** Awesome.  **Hannah:** Yeah.  **Michelle:** You know it's interesting 'cause I  **Hannah:** Yeah. **Michelle:** an episode on. Nervous system. Really the vagal tone and  **Hannah:** Yes. **Michelle:** there's a link with a weaker vagal tone and things like endometriosis or  **Michelle:** PCOS, and I thought that was just fascinating. [00:06:00]  **Michelle:** So, yeah, I'd love to really kind of dig deep on all of these things. So just for people listening and they're kind of like hearing nervous system for the first time. 'cause well maybe they've listened to my podcast, maybe not when I talked about the nervous system. But what should people, like, explain the nervous system, explain how the nervous system ties into certain conditions. **Hannah:** I mean, that's a very, like, that's pretty broad because it's like, you know, it really depends on what. **Michelle:** the nervous system like tie into certain conditions?  **Hannah:** I don't know what condition it doesn't, honestly. Uh, the more, the more I get like deep in the weeds with this, so, you know, a lot of my clients we, you know, so I am typically working with people with autoimmune conditions and hormone. I balances gut health, that kind of stuff. And I, you know, I would say the nervous system impacts all of those areas [00:07:00] because ideally, especially when we're talking about women's health and like hormones, things like that we really just want to create safety in the body, right? **Hannah:** So that we can. Manufacture hormones and ovulate naturally and things like that. So, and then, you know, inflammation's another, another piece of that. It really just, it's a great way to, like, it just connects to everything right. **Michelle:** Yeah, well the vagus nerve is incredibly important when it comes to gut health. the stronger the vagal tone, the better the vagus nerve, the better. It's able to lower inflammation in the body.  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** fascinating and interesting. And so what are some of the things that you do suggest for people. they wanna regulate their nervous system and support that aspect.  **Hannah:** So First of all, I think it's important to just figure out what are the systems for that client? What are [00:08:00] the systems that are working for them and what's not? And really get really honest about that. And then, you know, it could be something like starting a. **Hannah:** Very doable meditation practice or some breath work like before, before meals, right? Getting into rest and digest me activating that vagus nerve so that we can digest our food properly. So it really just depends on what is feels a lot most aligned for the client and, and is doable for them. But also I think another big piece of this, which is not really talked about often is eating for blood sugar balance. **Hannah:** Because even like blood sugar swings throughout the day can cause fluctuations in your mood and your anxiety and cravings and all, all of, and even inflammation as well. So  **Michelle:** that  **Hannah:** like a whole body [00:09:00] approach. Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** It's such a good point. And I remember like looking into this and researching like just really the gut brain connection and. And it's interesting 'cause you can see it really go both ways. So if you have imbalanced gut microbiome that can ima impact your brain and your mood and your state and your emotions. **Michelle:** And it actually is linked with certain emotional um, imbalances or like mental disorders. It's really fascinating. And then they found. On the flip side that people who meditated for many years, like Tibetan monks, they had a really vast microbiome that was a lot more enriched and had a lot more diversity. **Michelle:** So it's really fascinating how you really can literally get it at both ends or either end.  **Hannah:** yeah. Like I tell my clients all the time, if you're breathing into your shoulders, the majority of the time it's gonna signal, [00:10:00] or that's gonna signal to the brain that you're in fight or flight. So it's gonna send all the blood to your extremities. It's not gonna be sending the blood to, you know, your, your GI track and your, you know, your organs there. **Hannah:** And so. it's gonna be a lot harder to digest your foods, whereas if you are really taking these deep breaths into your belly, it's sending all the blood there. And that's, that's a, and I mean, I often get skipped, you know, people are just like, no, just gimme a, just gimme a meal plan. I wanna feel better. **Hannah:** I wanna lose weight, or I wanna, you know, but it's like, you really gotta think about not just what you're eating, but how you're eating, like what your nervous system state is. You know, when you're, when you're eating food.  **Michelle:** That's so true. It's  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** true. And it was funny 'cause I was reading about that and it was one of the things to do is just stand. This is why they say like, don't drive and eat at the same time. Because when you're driving naturally, you're gonna be in a little bit more of a fight or flight or kind of ready for anything and. Also just to kind of throw it out [00:11:00] there, it's not bad to be in that state, in that sympathetic state. It's part of life. It's just that sometimes you need that and then sometimes you need the other. But what you're saying is so true, like it's actually like becoming mindful of getting yourself into that state and maybe  **Michelle:** doing those exercises to get yourself in more parasympathetic state, which is more of  **Michelle:** the rest and digest, so that you're priming your body when you do eat. To digest better. So I think  **Hannah:** Yeah. Of course, and, you know, if you're digesting better, you're absorbing nutrients better, which is gonna impact your energy levels, your mood, your hormones, everything. So yeah, there really, I feel like the more I get into it, the, more I see that there really isn't an aspect of our health, our med, our metabolic health, everything that is not touched by, your nervous system. **Michelle:** Yeah, it's really fascinating. I like, the more I dig into this, the more I'm just like so [00:12:00] amazed at how Willy, you know, it's the nervous system is kind of like this wiring of like. Information.  **Michelle:** It's almost like information that kind of signals to your body, all kinds of different states, but especially that safety. **Michelle:** I agree with you. You know, when you, when you feel safe, you can be more creative. And what does that mean really in the body fertility and it also regeneration growth.  **Michelle:** So yeah, it's pretty cool,  **Hannah:** Yeah. And I mean, hormones, that's how hormones work too. They're just chemical messengers in your body. **Michelle:** right? and so talk about PCOS, 'cause I know that you work with P-C-O-S-A lot just to cover. 'cause I think of people don't really understand it fully because it is you know, there's so many different types of PCOS and people get confused and sometimes people show PCOS symptoms, but then some doctors, and we don't know if they're just not like looking. Thoroughly into it. Dismiss it. Oh, that's not PCOS. So  **Hannah:** Right.  **Michelle:** that and just kind of, **Hannah:** Yeah.  **Michelle:** [00:13:00] it is,  **Hannah:** Okay, well, we'll just start what, like, so what is PCOS? So PCOS stands for polycystic ovarian syndrome. So a lot of people get confused by that right off the bat. They think, oh, so that mean I have cysts on my ovaries. Does that mean that I have it? So it's actually not a physical ovarian condition, like of the presence of cyst, but it's rather a hormonal condition and it's a, what I like to call a spectrum condition. **Hannah:** You know, 'cause there's different varieties and there's different root causes. It's important to understand, first of all what kind of PCOS you have and what the root causes are which is why we, we use functional lab testing in practice. But but yeah, I think a lot of women often it's like a long confusing road full of mixed messages of like just lose weight advice,  **Michelle:** Yeah,  **Hannah:** [00:14:00] you know. **Michelle:** really thin. PCOS patients, so that's where it can get so confusing for  **Hannah:** Right, right, right. And so, A-P-C-O-S isn't in an ovarian condition, you know, what exactly is going on? I mean, in a nutshell, it's basically, blood sugar issues plus inflammation, plus genetic susceptibility, which is going to lead to the ovaries to begin to produce large amounts of androgens. **Hannah:** So, you know, and I say genetic susceptibility because, you know, just because you have like insulin sensi or insulin resistance or diabetes, that doesn't mean you automatically are gonna get PCOS. Some people just have really sensitive ovaries right. And so they're, they're going to develop the, the condition, so I like to talk to my clients about well first of all, we start by running some tests [00:15:00] to find out, you know, what what their root causes are. And then we're gonna really go deep with, you know, working on the blood sugar issues with the inflammation, real food strategies lifestyle interventions, things like that. **Michelle:** One of the things that I find is pretty common just in my own practice, is that. **Michelle:** there's a huge link of gut imbalance  **Michelle:** or, you know, gut microbiome  **Michelle:** imbalance and inflammation, you know, that is part of the contributor to the inflammation and can really impact PCOS conditions.  **Hannah:** Yeah. Because you know, if we, if that inflammation in the gut is going unchecked you know, that's also gonna drive that insulin resistance even more.  **Michelle:** Yeah.  **Michelle:** what are some of the tests that you do for PCOS? Functional  **Hannah:** Well, yeah. Well, first of all, I, I like to start with a Dutch test. It's a, have you heard of [00:16:00] Dutch? The Uhhuh? Yeah. Oh, you do? Okay. Yeah. So I would run a Dutch you know, so that we,  **Michelle:** out just for people  **Hannah:** yeah. Yes, **Michelle:** I've never heard of it before. So it's dried urine testing for comprehensive, or I forget  **Hannah:** it's a Dr. It's a. Yeah, yeah. Dried urine test for comprehensive hormones. I know I used to think, oh, it's of Dutch, like it's from the Dutch, like, you know, but it's just an abbreviation.  **Michelle:** right, right.  **Hannah:** But yes, it's a very unique way to look at hormones. 'cause traditionally before this test was available, you would have to rely on blood work for hormones. **Hannah:** And, you know, saliva for cortisol, which is okay, but it's just not great. So this test really helps us get a lot more specific, a lot more personalized, and helps us get some answers that would probably. Be left unanswered if we were just, you know, looking at, at blood work alone. So, you know, it's gonna tell us, you know, give us a snapshot [00:17:00] of all three sex hormones, estrogen, progesterone, testosterone. **Hannah:** It's gonna show us how they're being metabolized in the liver. And then what I really like is it looks at your cortisol awakening response. So someone is struggling with sleep, mood, energy levels. Things like that that could also be driving your symptoms and, and your inflammation as well. So I, mm-hmm. **Michelle:** cortisol is your friend in the morning.  **Hannah:** Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And then I like that it also has that organic acid test at the end there, which some of those other markers are gonna be important for looking at, for hormone production. So it's nice if they include that. So I, I like to do a Dutch, I also like to do HTMA testing, which stands for hair tissue mineral analysis. **Hannah:** Because, you know, you know, when we're looking at hormones it's, you know, we, we also wanna be, look thinking about minerals too because and not just like, our minerals through blood [00:18:00] work, but more on a cellular level. Like what is the body doing with those minerals? And how is your body utilizing them? **Hannah:** Are they even getting up into the cell? So, and we can, you know, you know, minerals, they impact hormones, which means they're gonna impact PCOS. So I like that one too. And it's like a little, it's a, it's a nice way to, I like it 'cause it's, it shows your body's like, it's like a blueprint. It shows you your stress pattern. **Hannah:** know how your body is using minerals after you've maybe gone through a season of. Really high stress and you know, the fertility journey too is so stressful on its own that I'm like, yeah, let's look at what your body does with all this stress and how we can really like, you know, deeply nourish your body and, you know, make it feel safe for ovulation. **Michelle:** Yeah, I know that there's a lot of minerals that you can't really test in blood and for example, magnesium. That's a **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** one to test for. So does this test for magnesium as well, like all [00:19:00] minerals or,  **Hannah:** yeah, yeah. It looks at all of the minerals. Specifically the ones that I'm gonna be focusing on. The minerals that impact PCS would be magnesium, zinc, calcium, iron selenium iodine. So, you know, and in a nutshell, you know, these, these minerals. they can exacerbate insulin resistance, hormonal imbalances, oxidative stress, which is important for like egg quality, sperm quality, things like that. **Hannah:** So women, get your men to your partner.  **Michelle:** Yes.  **Michelle:** So, so this is a hair test.  **Hannah:** yeah, it's a hair. They're using just like a teaspoon amount of your hair to analyze the mineral content in your tissues. **Michelle:** Fascinating. I know they've done those for like heavy metals and, and just testing the  **Hannah:** Yeah, yeah,  **Michelle:** I haven't heard of the mineral testing yet.  **Hannah:** yeah. And this, yeah. And this test does include heavy metals and we look at, mm-hmm.  **Michelle:** heavy metals. Oh, [00:20:00] okay.  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** it's really high. Just like for people that don't have symptoms sometimes I almost feel like it's like high for everybody.  **Hannah:** The heavy metals. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and  **Michelle:** somebody who's not, who doesn't have like,  **Hannah:** yeah, and I mean, we we're exposed to heavy metals all of the time. It's, you know, it's, there's, it's kind of impossible to get around it, you know? It's in our food, our water, the soil, you know. And so my approach is, you know, we might see like an acute. **Hannah:** Exposure to the heavy metals. But what we wanna see is that you, you're able to detox and excrete those heavy metals safely. You know, that's why, you know, we have our detox organs, our liver, right? And so if I ever see those metals like pushing into the tissues, it's just a really good indication that, hey, your liver needs some. **Hannah:** Some attention, like we need to work on supporting that. And also working on not just our [00:21:00] detoxification organs, but our drainage pathways. So like our lymphatic system you know, making sure we're having daily bowel movements that we're sweating all of that. All of that stuff. Yeah.  **Michelle:** Yeah. **Michelle:** for sure. I think that that's key is really detoxifying, and I think that it, you had a good point. You mentioned the word safely because  **Michelle:** that can be an issue, like if you detoxify too harshly. I'm really big on that, especially when you're trying to conceive and you're actively trying, you definitely don't wanna do something that's so strong that it actually circulates more toxins in your bloodstream.  **Hannah:** That's right. Yeah. **Michelle:** So they have like binders, right? Or things  **Hannah:** Yeah, That is one approach for me. I rarely will do like a heavy metal detox with somebody. I will just wanna work with them on, you know, first the foundational things of, are we optimizing the gut health, the, you know, the liver function are we getting those drainage pathways [00:22:00] open? **Hannah:** Because your body should be able to do all that on its own if it's, you know, optimal. but I mean, if someone's already doing like a gut protocol or something with me, then yeah, they, they'll be taking like those types of supplements and then it'll, it'll still act on the heavy metals and things like that, as. **Michelle:** Interesting. So, what are some of the nutrient and lifestyle interventions specifically that you would do for PCOS? Or have you seen, because I, I do know that  **Hannah:** yeah.  **Michelle:** different types, so that could  **Hannah:** Yes.  **Michelle:** the type,  **Hannah:** Yes. Yeah. **Michelle:** the things that people should kind of like look out for, think about?  **Hannah:** Yeah. Yeah. So the first step is, is gonna be improving the quality of your food choices. So, you know, removing inflammatory oils, added sugars a lot of like processed, like ultra processed carbohydrates and, you know, with chemical and artificial additives. Things like that, you wanna replace them with whole real foods. **Hannah:** It's really that simple.  **Michelle:** Yeah. I [00:23:00] know,  **Hannah:** Yeah. Yeah. And then also, you know, the goal is to eat a sufficient amount of carbohydrates to promote ovulation, but while still focusing on those whole real. Food sources, like starchy veggies fruits and then unprocessed whole grains and legumes.  **Michelle:** So really from natural sources,  **Michelle:** complex car carbs. So it's not like simple carbs, not white, you know, avoid those like.  **Hannah:** Yeah. Right. So you, and you would want to make sure you're getting adequate amount of carbohydrates, but you know, if we're also dealing with insulin resistance, then we also need to be talking about you know, maintaining adequate calorie intake and just aiming for. Balance across all the macronutrients. **Hannah:** So, you know, we're pairing those carbohydrates with good quality sources of protein and healthy fats. And, if you're eating a more whole food carbs diet like. Your carbs are coming [00:24:00] from fruits like, and like root vegetables and things like that, then those foods are naturally gonna have more fiber in them, which is also gonna help with things like insulin resistance. **Hannah:** And then I would also be focusing on gut nourishing foods, like, bone broth probiotics from fermented foods, cultured. Products. And then lots of prebiotic fibers. So it also just making sure you're eating a wide range of, plant fibers. Like we're not just eating the same, spinach every day. **Hannah:** You know, let's really mix that up. Maybe like arugula, kale, you know. So that would be the where, where I would start with foods strategies. And then for lifestyle I would be really focusing on exercise. This is a really crucial tool in repairing insulin sensitivity and managing blood sugar levels. **Hannah:** So first I would just focus on increasing your daily movement. So, you know, maybe try tracking your steps. And then maybe you would wanna consider adding in some resistance [00:25:00] training and some short hit style workouts. Since those really show the most metabolic improvements. In general I would avoid, I would avoid like, really long duration cardio on a regular baseball basis, since that's like very stressful on the body. **Hannah:** So exercise is number one. Stress management is key. I know we've already kind of touched on that a little bit. You know, that's a big piece of hormonal. Balance balance since the, your adrenal health, you know, has the ability to impact the function of your sex hormones. I would just evaluate the sources of your stress. **Hannah:** You know, I like to think of it like a bucket, like a stress bucket, and we have all these different inputs pouring in. Some of those things we can't really remove, but some things we can, you can control your nutrition and your sleep quality. You know, you can maybe work on energetic boundaries, right? **Hannah:** Maybe you wanna include things like meditation or [00:26:00] journaling, acupuncture, right? Those are all really nice ways to support yourself. And then sleep. Sleep is also like so major. That's when you know when you're, you can get good quality sleep at night. That's when your, your body's repairing tissue. **Hannah:** And it, it has a lot to do with your hormones, like in like your like your hunger hormones, those ones and then also like cortisol, melatonin, things like that. Everything that just keeps all of the systems working together smoothly. So, yep. Do you. **Michelle:** of sleep. There's a, there like a lot of times we'll increase sugar cravings 'cause you want that quick energy. So  **Hannah:** Yes, **Michelle:** that's one example of how that can impact  **Hannah:** exactly. Yeah. Yeah. If you have like one poor night of sleep, it increases your hunger hormone levels pretty significantly. So we'll see that that issue popping up time and time again. Yeah, so.[00:27:00]  **Michelle:** yeah. And I also have heard, in some  **Michelle:** of like go, literally pivot into autoimmune and how you can address that in the case of Hashimoto's? **Michelle:** 'cause it is so prevalent and a lot of people have it. The first thing that I say is, cut out gluten, corn, and dairy and soy if you can. Now, I always say if you can't do all of them, at least cut out the gluten entirely and talk to us about like what you've done and what you've found to be helpful. **Michelle:** 'cause it is something that if you catch early, you really can sh shift a lot just from diet alone.  **Hannah:** Oh, yes. Yeah, and I've helped. Hundreds of women with that. Exactly. Just you know, we [00:28:00] see, I've seen different stages of, Hashimoto's. You know, so if it's like, you know, stage one where we're seeing the presence of antibodies and maybe they have symptoms, maybe they don't. A lot of those women typically will present with like subclinical hypothyroidism. **Hannah:** So like their thyroid labs look fine. But they're like, I, feel tired all the time. I'm constipated. I can't lose weight, you know? So the first thing I would start with is kinda getting ahead of things with, 'cause the majority of your immune system is in your gut. So I would be doing a GI would run a stool sample, a GI map and see what's going on there. **Hannah:** Because there's different things that could be driving. That immune response. Yeah. It could be coming from things in the diet like gluten. And that test certainly will show us if you're having an immune response to gluten. So in those cases, I would have those clients cut, cut that out. And some people they, they don't, they don't run the test and they [00:29:00] cut out gluten, but they just feel better without it. **Michelle:** See that a lot.  **Hannah:** mm-hmm. I do too. Just kind of anecdotally. I was just gonna say that I think it is because of like, what, what they're spraying on our crops.  **Michelle:** Yeah, **Hannah:** Yep. know that it can impact hormones like big time, that's  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm.  **Michelle:** one for sure.  **Hannah:** Yeah. So, and then, you know, obviously if there's a inflammation or like leaky gut.  **Hannah:** You know, we're gonna wanna address that anyway because that could be driving that immune response and making your symptoms worse, making the antibodies levels worse, right? So I really wanna just get ahead of it with the gut number one. **Hannah:** And then I like to do mineral testing as well, since so many minerals, not only impact PCOS, but they impact your thyroid.  **Michelle:** That's a huge  **Hannah:** Yes, selenium. This is a common thing that I see. I'll see really high amounts of calcium in the [00:30:00] tissues. And that's gonna block your thyroid hormone from getting up into the cell. **Hannah:** So like maybe their thyroid panel looks great, but that, or they're already taking a thyroid medication, but they're, they feel like it's not doing anything for them. I'm like, look, you have a lot of calcium in your tissues. And so like, that's your thyroid hormone's not even getting up into the cell. So of course you wouldn't feel an impact there. **Hannah:** And that also is. **Michelle:** actually? What causes that? Calcification?  **Hannah:** So, I typically see that from over supplementing with vitamin D. So, that will pull the calcium out of the bone and teeth. And put it into the tissues. Yeah. A lot of people get put on vitamin D by their doctor, like maybe they had low levels at one point, and then their doctor never talked to them about weaning off of the vitamin D. **Hannah:** They just kept taking it.  **Michelle:** too high. Yeah.  **Hannah:** Yeah. Or they'll start them off like a really high dose, like I've seen like 50,000 units of, of vitamin. Yeah. [00:31:00] And they, and they just keep taking it like, then they're never told like, Hey, you're actually supposed to tapered off of that after a couple months. I've also seen an influx of people on vitamin D, zinc you know, ever since the pandemic. **Hannah:** So they just kept taking it and they don't know how that's impacted their. Mine. So, so yeah, that's one culprit. I, I'll see. The other thing that I notice, and this is pretty prevalent in the autoimmune community is, and I don't think it's talked about a lot, is significant trauma and certain types of trauma. **Hannah:** It, it's like we call when we see this pattern on an htm. It, we call it a calcium shell where the calcium and the magnesium levels are really high in the tissues. And then we are like really depleted in things like potassium and sodium and other secondary minerals. And it's kind of like the body's way of shielding itself from feeling [00:32:00] big, like feeling really big emotions. **Hannah:** So like a lot of these clients, I, I'll talk to them about this and they have such a flat effect, like with the then we start moving the calcium out of the tissues and then they become, they're, it's like they really need more emotional support throughout that process. It's very interesting. I'm about to actually do an HTMA on myself. **Hannah:** It's been a couple of years, but I've just gone, I'm grieving my mom right now and I, yeah, and it's just been a really rough couple of months. I've just been just going through the motions and kind of in that, like taking care of her, taking care of my girls. Like just everything that we've gone through leading up to this point. **Hannah:** And I'm like, I am so curious to know what's going on with my minerals right now. I would not be surprised if I was having calcium going into my tissues. 'cause I believe that's what was my pattern last [00:33:00] time I ran the test a few years ago. So.  **Michelle:** Oh, that's interesting.  **Hannah:** It's like, yeah, this is my, my unique pattern, you know, so I see that a lot with Hashimoto's and yeah, and, and it's interesting because that pattern, like the high calcium in the tissues and the low potassium, that's really really common with like thyroid stuff in general because, you know, first of all, that calcium's blocking the thyroid. **Hannah:** Hormone from getting up into the cell. It's also gonna be blocking insulin signaling. So there is gonna be a lot of blood sugar swings, and that's gonna be driving the inflammation, making that worse. And then the low potassium, well, you know, potassium is needed for thyroid function as well. So, I see that pattern a lot with that population and it's so fascinating. **Hannah:** And I would just say like, I wouldn't say it's like. It's more like anecdotal, right? Like and you probably see that too in your practice. Yeah. Yeah.  **Michelle:** For different things, not this [00:34:00] specifically, but Yeah. **Michelle:** I mean, you see a lot of that and that's, that matters just because studies are very expensive to have and you can't  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** rely just on studies. You have to really rely on data in general, like your own experience  **Hannah:** Oh, absolutely. **Michelle:** there's so much information that you can get just from that. And then, couple of things. One of the things is, I know that Zyme has been shown to really help, it's an enzyme, it's a pro oleic enzymes that break apart, like fibrous tissue. So I'm curious to  **Hannah:** Oh **Michelle:** if it would help with excess calcium or, you know, deposits because it, it works to break down  **Hannah:** yeah,  **Michelle:** really needed in the body.  **Hannah:** yeah. Yeah.  **Michelle:** up.  **Hannah:** Yeah. That is interesting. Yeah, because when we see, usually the calcium in the tissues is also associated with things like restless leg syndrome, kidney stones, gallstones, all that stuff, you know, because it's just calcification of the tissues. [00:35:00] Right. What I do is I'll get, if that person is, has actually been on vitamin D what I'll do is I'll say, okay, let's just pause on the vitamin D and then I'll get them on, a form of vitamin K two that will target that calcium in the tissues and, and bring it, redirect it back to the bones. So we'll do that for several months. And if that person's still concerned about their, their vitamin D levels and say, let's just get that checked, you know, and depending on where you're at with that, you, you either, you know, probably need supplementation time from time to time, or maybe just during the winter, right? **Hannah:** But it's not a long term. You know, supplement for you because of this pattern, this pattern that you typically have. **Michelle:** Another thing that I was gonna mention is, we were talking about like, antibodies.  **Michelle:** I remember, One of my patients mentioning she had like a, 'cause I was talking to an REI and I was gonna have him, I had him on the podcast and so she had some questions and she had a very low amount of [00:36:00] antibodies that are considered normal. And he said no, because the presence of any antibody, and that's what's crazy to me.  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm.  **Michelle:** normal in labs  **Hannah:** Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. The reference ranges for conventional labs or like in more like conventional healthcare settings. They're not, they're designed to show like if you have a chronic disease or not. Not necessarily if you're optimal. Right. Like thriving, you know? **Michelle:** have any, even if it's like minute, it means that there's an autoimmune, like  **Hannah:** Right. And.  **Michelle:** your thyroid.  **Hannah:** Yeah, and I mean, my first thought is like, and just because I've worked in that arena for so long, is I think it's just because they need to have a diagnose, a diagnosis for a chronic disease, number one, so that they can build insurance and blah, blah, blah.  **Michelle:** Yeah, yeah, yeah.  **Hannah:** So they typically can't treat you. They can't, they [00:37:00] technically can't treat you. **Hannah:** Like they don't really run on a, it's more of like a sick care model. It's not really, they can't really treat you for like prevention. Right. That's not like that that's not how insurance companies work. So, I think that that's, that's my theory on that. But, you know, but to, to answer your question, yes, I, I see, low levels that aren't considered Hashimoto's,  **Michelle:** Right?  **Hannah:** but I would label that early stages or stage one, and I would say, let's work, let's, let's order GI Map. **Hannah:** Let's look at what your minerals are doing like that impact your thyroid. Let's just, just start helping you feel better right away so that we can go into remission. I would much rather my client like, just go ahead and work on those things instead of waiting until it's like, you know, now we're seeing tissue damage, you know, and there's a lot of practices. **Hannah:** I don't,  **Michelle:** it if it's early enough, like, but if it's  **Hannah:** yeah.  **Michelle:** really like far gone,  **Hannah:** Yeah. It can, and I don't know if you've run [00:38:00] across this a lot in your practice or with your clients, but I've been told a lot of times that they weren't even able to request or see a specialist or an endocrinologist, I guess, until they were able to see tissue damage. And it's like, wouldn't you wanna just prevent the tissue damage? **Michelle:** crazy to me. Yeah.  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I'm, you know, I just like to get on it like right away, even if it's like, you know, your antibodies are like five, you know?  **Michelle:** yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Really low, but still,  **Hannah:** Yeah. Really low. Yeah. It's worth working on. Yeah. **Michelle:** I had actually just recently, I had a case where her TSH was like five and she's young, she's in her twenties. And I'm  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm.  **Michelle:** not normal.  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** just a little abnormal. **Michelle:** But that's not a little abnormal for try somebody trying to conceive.  **Hannah:** Yeah.  **Michelle:** and under. So if you  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** the thing. If you go to a general doctor or even an ob, they are a little more general in women's health.  **Hannah:** Yeah. **Michelle:** they're not going [00:39:00] to look at it the same way as an REI is gonna look at it, which is a reproductive endocrinologist and they're gonna  **Hannah:** Right.  **Michelle:** it a completely different perspective.  **Michelle:** Yeah, so it's, so those things I think a lot of people just don't realize and they're going in and they get the wrong information or they don't get like the full information and many years go by and it's kind of like, you know, that's why it's so important to really get ahead of it. **Hannah:** Yeah, absolutely. I think you're, you're worthy of feeling better, you know, if, does it have to be something that's chronic or.  **Michelle:** Right.  **Hannah:** Like full on disease state before just feeling better. **Michelle:** Yeah, for sure. So for people who, you know, are curious and wanna learn more about what you do,  **Michelle:** um, what are some of the things that you offer online? Where can people find you? I.  **Hannah:** So for people who are wanting to work one-on-one with me or maybe just start off with [00:40:00] a consultation or some have some labs done you can find me at through Pivot Nutrition Coaching. So the website is pivot nutrition coaching com. And then if, for my social media, I'm on Instagram with Hannah. **Michelle:** Awesome. I'll have all the notes anyway. If anybody like is curious or wants to know exactly how it's written out or find the link, you can find those on the episode notes. So Hannah, thank you so much for coming on today. It was a great conversation. I love really digging deep on just what goes on with these conditions that so many people hear about that are trying to conceive, but they don't really understand it. **Michelle:** And I think. There's so much power and knowledge and understanding and kind of like going beneath the surface. So I think this is one of the things that I like to do on the show is really to educate people on like really what's going on. So you've really shared some great, valuable information, so thank you so much, Hannah.[00:41:00]  **Hannah:** Thank you so much for having me and I, I think that this is such an important, important conversation to have and a valuable platform, so it's really an honor to be here. And hope we can chat again soon. **Michelle:** Thank you.         

Hey guys and welcome back to the podcast!Today we are here to chat with Torrece "Chef T" Gregoire from Yes, Chef who is here to spill the TEA on this new show! Chef T chats about her strategy and approach to Yes, Chef and how she feels about her cast mates on the show. She talks about Michelle's decision to send her home and why she thinks Michelle has had such a hard time this season with the other cast members. She kind of goes in on Michelle and how she has been acting this season. She also wants to thank her fans for their support and encourages them to keep watching the show regardless if she is gone. FOLLOW CHEF T ON INSTAGRAM:https://www.instagram.com/thereal.chef.t/?hl=enConnect with me on social:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/zacharyrealityTiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@zacharyrealityTwitter: https://twitter.com/zacharyrealityYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/@ZacharyReality

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome Kerry Hinds @fertilebodyyoga, founder of Fertile Body Yoga, who shares her inspiring fertility journey and how yoga became an essential part of her path to motherhood. Kerry opens up about her struggles with infertility, navigating IVF abroad, and ultimately conceiving naturally after stepping away from treatments. She also discusses the benefits of fertility yoga for calming the nervous system, enhancing blood flow, and creating a supportive environment for conception. In this episode, you'll learn how yoga can help balance your nervous system, why feeling safe is essential for fertility, and practical ways to integrate fertility yoga into your daily routine. This heartfelt conversation is filled with wisdom, hope, and practical tips for anyone on their fertility journey. Key Takeaways:  Kerry's personal fertility journey and challenges with IVF The pivotal moment when she conceived naturally after stepping away from treatments How fertility yoga supports the nervous system and reproductive health The importance of feeling safe and creating space within the body Practical tips on incorporating breathwork, movement, and mindfulness for fertility Guest Bio: Kerry Hinds @fertilebodyyoga is a certified E-RYT, RPYT, Relax and Renew® teacher, fertility yoga instructor, and Reiki practitioner. She founded Fertile Body Yoga to support individuals on their fertility journeys. Drawing from her personal experiences with fertility challenges, including undergoing treatments and experiencing pregnancy loss, Kerry offers compassionate guidance to her students. She leads weekly fertility yoga classes and provides various mind-body support programs through the Fertile Body Yoga Virtual Studio. Kerry is also the host of the "Fringe Fertility" podcast, where she explores holistic and alternative approaches to enhancing fertility. Websites/Social Media Links: Learn more about Kerry HindsFollow Kerry Hinds on Instagram Listen to her podcast: The Fringe Fertility For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ ---------------- Transcript: # TWF: Kerry Hinds [00:00:00] Episode number 329 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. My guest today is Carrie Hines. Carrie is the owner and founder of Fertile Body Yoga, a virtual yoga studio that is dedicated to supporting women navigating their fertility journey. She offers both live stream and on demand fertility yoga classes. and small group programs that embrace the complete journey physically, mentally, emotionally, energetically, spiritually, and socially. Carrie has been teaching yoga for over 20 years and has been specializing, teaching, and training almost solely fertility yoga for eight years. Her classes and offerings are informed by her own experiences with pregnancy loss, years of IVF, and eventually completing her family with two children. Carrie has supported thousands of women on their fertility journey so far and is on a mission to help women conceive and birth with yoga and community. Carrie also [00:01:00] hosts Fringe Fertility, a podcast that highlights supportive fertility practices beyond the doctor's office. **Michelle:** Welcome to the podcast. Carrie. I'm so happy to have you. **Kerry:** Thanks for having me, Michelle. I'm so happy to be here and spend some time with you today. **Michelle:** Yes. I would love for you to share your story first of all I love fertility yoga. I always suggest for my patients and my clients to do it It's something that I've personally myself have been really transformed by yoga in general. Many different types of yoga, a huge believer in it. And I also think that it's a, I call it an intelligent exercise. It's something that's been around for thousands of years and [00:02:00] really is a medicine in its own. So I would love for you to share your story and how you personally went through your own journey, but also how you combine fertility with yoga. **Kerry:** Okay. Yeah. I'll try and be a little bit concise cause I could go on and on for the, for a long time about this topic. But you know, as many listeners out there, you know, I didn't really start thinking about having kids till I was in my mid thirties. I took me a while to find the person I wanted to share my DNA with. Right. So when I did, we got married we moved to Germany and We went to Germany with the intention of this would be a good time for me to have kids. He's going to do his PhD. Germany has so many great social supports for families and so on. So we're like, Oh, it's just skim the cream off the top of that social system. And so when we got there, as often [00:03:00] happens, things don't go as planned when it comes to fertility. So we rolled into IUI. So we tried for six months, we found a clinic and. You know, we lived in old Eastern Germany, so it was hard to find English speaking doctors. So it was a very interesting time of my life. Not only was it just stressful in general dealing with what's going on and is this ever going to happen to living in another culture, another country? I didn't have a ton of support around, but then trying to navigate a new language that I was not fluent in. at all. So, I, you know, had one amazing friend there who spoke fluent, fluent German, American woman. And she's like,I will help you. And she went into those appointments with me, **Michelle:** oh **Kerry:** did all the **Michelle:** What a great friend **Kerry:** I know, I know. It was so amazing because I was so [00:04:00] lost at that time trying to figure out, like, just what's going on, but then how to say it in a different language or understand it in a different language. So for anybody who's doing this, fertility journey overseas or is here in North America It's not your mother tongue English, and you're trying to figure it out, I see you, I understand how this can add an extra level of stress to it. So we. You know, during that time, I actually went and did a yoga teacher training cause I was like, this isn't working. I want to do something for myself. So let's go get a yoga teacher training. I'd actually been teaching yoga for years before this was, so I've been teaching yoga for 20 years far before, This, you know, all these 200 hour yoga teacher trainings that, you know, you can sign up for one. No problem now. But back then it was your teacher [00:05:00] tapped you on the shoulder and said, Hey, do you want to be like, let's do this. And so that's kind of how I started yoga. But then when I was in Germany, I was like, okay, I need to, let's make this legit, right? Let's go get the training. I love it. I was teaching in Germany and so on. So that was sort of the, the main integration of the yoga into the fertility journey was just taking that bigger step to get the certification. And then, yeah, we went, we did IUIs. The first IUI was successful in that I got pregnant and, you know, 10 week ultrasound, there was no heartbeat. So we lost that baby. Yeah, and it was again, different culture, different bedside manners, different, it was just so stark. That's the word I could use for it. Shocking. It was just like, okay. The baby has no heartbeat. We're booking you in tomorrow for a DNC. Be there at 6 a. m. [00:06:00] You know, there was no time to, to, to absorb what was, to breathe, to figure out what I wanted. it was just like this snowball that was just like, okay, this has happened. You're going to do this. You're going to be better than you're going to start again. And you're going to keep trying and trying. So that's a whole other rabbit hole we could go down. But yeah, it was, it was a lot. It was a lot. And so we ended up going to do IVF, and this was, you know, 15 years ago. So things were maybe a little different than they are now. LikeICSI was just sort of a, more of a thing, right? It's Ooh, we're going to do this new cool thing. ICSI. I was like, okay. And they're like, and then there's embryo glue and we'll glue your embryo to your uterus. And it was all cutting edge at this time. And We did it. We did many cycles frozen cycles fresh cycles. Yeah, so many cycles and [00:07:00] nothing stuck, right? We had been doing IVF for two years and we kind of just paused and said, Is this, do we want to keep doing this?is this how we envision our life to be? And we wanted kids for sure, but we also wanted to start living our lives again. So that was a very pivotal moment in our journey is when we stepped away from IVF. We said, okay, we're done. I had gained weight. I wasn't feeling like myself. My body was weirdly puffy in different places and just, I was unhappy and I was emotional and I was just like, let's. Let's, let's walk away. And I remember my fertility doctor at the time, he said, you know, your chances of getting pregnant naturally are like one in a hundred million. Like you shouldn't be walking away from IVF. And I was like, you know, I'm okay. Like [00:08:00] I just, I need a break. And I walked away and a month and a half later I was pregnant. **Michelle:** Wow **Kerry:** intervention. And then nine months postpartum, I also was pregnant again by accident because we thought we had our miracle baby, right? So we were like, okay, whatever. And then I was pregnant again and through the whole journey, I was using yoga for my body, but more so for my energetic health, my mental, emotional health. So when we ended up coming back to the U S and moving to Boston, that was one of the first things I did. I did a prenatal yoga teacher training and I said, Hey, can we do fertility yoga? And she's like,I don't, I'm sure. I have no idea what it is. Tell me what it is. I'm like, either do I, but I'll get back to you. And that's sort of how the fertility yoga started. And [00:09:00] nobody was really doing it eight years ago. It was, **Michelle:** It's true **Kerry:** Like, there was nothing. There was a few people, there was a couple books out on it but I really spent a lot of time explaining. what it was that we were trying to do when we were doing like a fertility focused yoga practice. So that's kind of the story. That's the evolution. **Michelle:** Well, I love the story. I don't love that you went through the suffering through the story But I love the fact that you can it Prove with your story that when people tell you when you hear from doctors that you have one in a million chance or whatever that is, that is not necessarily the truth. That is their opinion. They say it very factually, and I think that that's where it gets very confusing for people. They say it very factually, and I'm not dismissing what doctors say because a lot of times it could be very accurate or they can, but I, I, what I don't love is Is when things are predicted because the body can be [00:10:00] so unpredictable. And it can also show so many signs that defy what it's going to do. So that's where, you know, I say just have an open mind or getting a second opinion is great. So, but I do love hearing those stories because I think when people who are going through that now and are probably listening to fertility podcasts because they want to get. Answers and hear other people's stories and when they hear stories like that it sparks some hope in their hearts So I think that that's really important **Kerry:** Yeah, I often get Students they'll ask me well what was it like right because this is what we want This is people don't want to do IVF if they don't have to and they're like, what was it? what happened and I was like, I cannot tell you I can't tell you a hundred percent that it was the yoga that I was doing or you know All the other lifestyle changes I was doing but something came [00:11:00] together You magically all together at the right time and this baby happened and if I had to choose one word for it, it would be exhale because there was this feeling that my body was no longer having to perform like it felt safe because I wasn't going in for you know, all these procedures and like they're. You know, minimally invasive, but you're still like vaginal ultrasounds and people poking around down there and all the operations that come with it. Anesthesia, all those sorts of things. And yeah, it's, it's a lot. So my body was like, whew, thank you. Thank you. Let me just be. And I think the mental piece was just like that. I wasn't going to go back to it. At least anytime soon. So my, my body was actually believing [00:12:00] me, right? And I don't think it's It's something that you can fake. It's not a time, like I had to go through those two years of IVF and pregnancy loss to get to that point. I don't think that there's we can't just kind of skip over it and be like, Oh, I'm just going to think this now and I'm going to get pregnant naturally. So it's a process. That's it. you know, everybody's journey is different and we just need to give ourselves a little bit of space sometimes to integrate what's going on and give our bodies that exhale, which is so important. Mm. **Michelle:** I love that you say that because actually exhaling longer can simulate your, parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest mode, which many times the majority of us in response to life are in the fight or flight mode. And especially when we feel unsafe. And I love that you use the word safe because when we feel unsafe, Then [00:13:00] we're really not in a creative mode. We don't create even like mentally when we're not feeling safe. **Kerry:** Yeah. **Michelle:** When we feel safe, we're able to create, we're able to let go and our body's able to create, and that's a, it's a state of growth. So I love that you talk about that. And I think that one of the commonalities between yoga and acupuncture, which actually they're related in  many ways. And because it's really about moving the energy because yoga is connected to Ayurveda. Ayurveda has Marma points and yoga is actually a branch of Ayurveda. it's part of the medicine of the physicality of the body and moving the energy. **Kerry:** Yep. **Michelle:** Qigong is sort of the yoga of Chinese medicine. So it's very related. And I think one of the biggest commonalities or one of the ways I think it really works is it's all about the nervous system. **Kerry:** 100 percent it, the nervous system. Like when I, [00:14:00] even these days I, when I'm talking to somebody, I'm like, I'm talking to a person. Yes. But I'm interacting with a nervous system. So with the words that I'm saying my body language or how I look at them, right? Like it, it all is interacting with third nervous system. So how are we working with nervous systems? And when we show up, in fertility world supporting people. For me, the huge part of fertility yoga is how do we harness this parasympathetic, I call it rest, digest and reproduce. That's what I call it, just  **Michelle:** Yeah. I love that. Yes. **Kerry:** Because what it is, it **Michelle:** Yup. **Kerry:** It's what yoga is so good at, sadly, right? Like our Western culture view of yoga has been a little focused almost exclusively on exercise and gymnastic style yoga. But [00:15:00] really traditionally, like you said, it was about the marma. It was about the energetic lines running through you and wherever you find that imbalance, you can work with the energetic field to create balance again. And as you know, the Marma points and acupuncture and pressure points are like following very similar lines and it's powerful. But it's subtle, right?  **Michelle:** Right. it's **Kerry:** explain. Yeah, like it's hard to explain exactly what's happening but it is, it's so powerful and it can really be transformative for how we, how we navigate the journey as embracing that, the quiet side, the quiet side of things. **Michelle:** Yes. And I think that the way we connect with it is through feeling. Right. Because that is ultimately how we do it, but we can't feel or pay attention to what we're feeling when we're distracted all the time by the noise of the world. So we're constantly disrupted by the [00:16:00] noise. It's very disrupting actually for our nervous system. We don't realize it because we're so used to it. You could be used to things that are really not healthy for you and listen, you know, hearing the outside noise. And the loud noises of construction, you know, the normal life, if you're living in the city, the constant sirens and honking, and, you know, those things are actually very taxing on the nervous system. And they put us in a fight or flight mode because our bodies don't really recognize them isn't in the natural world. So it stimulates a more fight and flight response. So having that counter balance with practices like yoga. In calming the nervous system. And what I love about yoga is that it includes breath, all the things that really stimulate the vagus nerve mantra sound. So you're able to tune your vibration and breath. Which is also very calming because if you exhale longer, like there's certain controlled breath [00:17:00] where you're able to control your brain through breath and even movement, somatic energy work and emotions that we can at least much more easily, like that control, but manage with our  bodies.  **Kerry:** Yeah. I couldn't say it better myself, Michelle. That was perfect. I think one thing, right, like we, we, we know that the fertility journey is stressful. We know that life is stressful. We know that we're probably living in a heightened state in our sympathetic more than we, we would like to. And yeah, the yoga piece can just. hit so many things. And one thing we need to remember is that we are created like evolutionarily are, you know, we are more attuned to the stresses, right? For survival. So the loud, the loud noises, it [00:18:00] alerts us to look around and see, Oh, is there something coming for me? Or the bright lights and things like that. Like we're just constantly Like our bodies are looking out to keep us safe all the time. And we're tuned to that, right, that our bodies are naturally tuned to go in that direction. And there's way more stimuli that will take us that way. And then with the other side, the parasympathetic, we have to work harder and more intentionally to go there. And I think that is one of the things that is the hardest is you actually need to train the system to be more fluid. It's not the stress isn't going to go away. Stress isn't going to go away, but if you are training your nervous system to float more evenly back and forth between the two and taking the time to go parasympathetic as best that you can, whether it's with the breath or [00:19:00] with yoga or going for a walk in nature or anything like that You're rebalancing, but we have to make more effort that is just the way we're, we're built. And yeah, like things that will help us be calmer are like dim lights, quietude, support. So like lying down flat. So our body doesn't have to be alert, like even sitting, we have to be alert.  So we might not fall over weight. Unless you're claustrophobic, of course so yeah, there's lots of things that we can add, and yoga does that. Restorative yoga, which is a huge piece of how I teach fertility yoga it, that is what it does. those are the things that we're embracing when we do restorative yoga.  **Michelle:** I love restorative yoga. **Kerry:** Me too.  **Michelle:** Oh, it feels so good. It really just feels so good. And you know what? I love to. I remember taking a yoga class and the teacher after we're laying in Shavasana said, allow the ground to support [00:20:00] you. And I'm like, just the thought of that changes. My experience laying down right now **Kerry:** Yes. Yes I say that too in my yoga classes or I'm like the earth is coming up to hold you and you Let the earth hold you like it's like a two way street. It's like here I am I'm here, but you need to let go into it too. Yeah, it, there's so many wonderful things about restorative yoga. I mean, it's not the only part of fertility yoga the way I teach it, but it is definitely a huge part of what I like to emphasize to help train the nervous system that like,  Oh, Oh, I remember this place of calm and safety, right? And then if we can condition it with at the beginning of every Shavasana or every restorative yoga pose, you do three big, deep breaths, long exhales. The body then starts to put it all together. and [00:21:00] say, Oh, when she takes three big, long, deep breaths, it's time to relax. It's time to release and let go. So we can, there's so much we could do to support ourselves on that level, I think. But yeah, society makes it hard. **Michelle:** Right, so it's almost like a triggering relaxation response To something that you repeat over and over again I always say likeif you do meditation and you burn a specific incense That's clean or something that I'm even in the central oil Like diffuse a specific one every single time you start to meditate you're immediately going to It's almost like pavlov's dog. You're always going to associate it with meditation time and our scent brings us Right there because it's so connected our olfactory nerve, which is really responsible for our sense of smell Is connected to our brains directly **Kerry:** Yeah. And certain smells will be more grounding and, you know, so choose your smells. wisely, I would say, you know, where like,citrus [00:22:00] and high notes are a little bit more stimulating where like the deeper tones like sandalwood and like the earthy green trees, those sorts of things can just be really calming. And then plus the volatile oils that are in evergreen trees are calming to the nervous system. **Michelle:** Yeah. It's not amazing. **Kerry:** You know, so why not put those in your diffuser like use all the tools that you can and and and then things smell good **Michelle:** Yeah.  **Kerry:** like  I just  **Michelle:** who doesn't like that? **Kerry:** Yeah Yeah, **Michelle:** That's awesome. So just take people through, likeif they've never really heard of fertility yoga, like what differentiates fertility yoga from regular yoga  or other types of yoga? **Kerry:** Whoo. So the first I would say are the people that are in the class so it is just really dedicated to holding space for those that are trying to conceive and it can be anybody from, Oh, I'm just [00:23:00] thinking about it, but I, my periods have been a little weird all my life. I just want to get in tune with my body to those who have, you know, eighth round of IVF, like really deep into the journey. So I think the community piece is really important because, People like to be seen and understood. And when we do a check in at the beginning of our classes, even though it's online and there's all these little squares and so on on the Zoom room, people, you see people nodding and oh, and like sending hearts and doing all the things. And just creating community around that as opposed to if you went to a regular yoga class and you walked up to your teacher and said, Oh, by the way, I'm doing a stim cycle right now. They're not going to know what to do with you. They're not going to know how to keep you safe, nor are they going to know how to nurture that part of the cycle. So that's the 2nd piece is. Becoming or recognizing [00:24:00] where you are in your cycle and then matching the energies of that time. So follicular phase is a little more. Woo woo, woo hoo, right? Springtime, and follicles are growing, you have more energy because of the hormones, and an ovulation, you're just like the queen bee, right? So these are the energies that we would say, okay, if you're in the follicular phase, you're gonna do this twist, and so on, and blah blah blah. And then you would say, okay, oh, you're in the luteal phase, things are a little quieter, You might be pregnant, you're in the two week wait, you're post transfer, you're stimming, like all these things, then we need to be a little quieter with the body and give the pelvic area a little bit more space. So we would work with that and do some modifications for that. So really following the cycle. So when I'm teaching, I'm constantly, Okay, if you're in the follicular phase, you're going to do this. If you're in the luteal phase, you're going to [00:25:00] do this. So not only am I keeping people safe, but I'm also like finding the nourishing pieces as well. So it's like,I'm boosting that energy and keeping you safe where you wouldn't be able to do that in a regular class. And then the movement piece. Is really just like slow flow, somatic movement, a lot of it's pelvic centered, but not always because we hold tension and all different places in our body, the chakra system, the energetic system, right? We want it flowing as well as possible for many reasons. So it's lots of ooey gooey, juicy sort of moves in and around the pelvis. So what else did I forget? Oh, and of course the yoga wisdom part of it, right? The energetics, the, the wisdom. So I teach, I'm very thematic when I teach. So I will choose a theme and it may [00:26:00] come from yoga. For example, I did a class or I'm doing a series right now. We're doing an elemental series. So it's five weeks. Perfect. Five elements. Let's do this in yoga anyway, or in Ayurveda. So I'm like, we started with earth, like, why is earth, why is grounding important in fertility, then water and fire and so on. So, yeah, just bringing a new perspective into it, like something to be like, oh, okay, I get it. I get that, I need to be grounded and feel safe for fertility to I don't want to say be boosted, but to be, to feel safe, your body, or to be working at full capacity, whatever is happening in your body, your body needs to feel safe for the fertility hormones. Whew.  **Michelle:** I'm sure there's a lot more even that you might not even realize it, you know, because when we feel safe, I [00:27:00] mean, there's so many things that our bodies naturally do. And our bodies are so intelligent. And it puts us into a growth cycle in general, like our bodies are able to regenerate and repair when it feels like it's getting rest, the proper rest. So, also uh, something that I've noticed, and I do have some patients, it's really interesting because it kind of correlates with jaw tension, but it usually correlates with hip tension. **Kerry:** Hip and pelvic floor, probably. Yeah. **Michelle:** And so that's something that I always think about with fertility yoga is really kind of like getting that area more free because it correlates to the first and second chakra. And the first chakra is really that rooted chakra, the place that we feel safe, and that holds up the second chakra, which is really where our fertility is. So in order to have that active, you know, it depends on that foundation of safety. **Kerry:** Yeah. **Michelle:** So also the blood flow, I'm [00:28:00] sure. **Kerry:** Oh, yeah. Yeah. See, there's so much. I like so many things. But yeah, so that somatic slow flow movement that's pelvic centered, of course, it's like, it's energetic, like bringing energy in and like moving energy, which is really important when we're in our lifestyle of sitting stagnant a lot of the time. And yeah, the blood flow, Like this gentle squeeze and release, right? Like it's constantly bringing in new oxygenated blood into the organs of the pelvis. And I think often in yoga, we don't think, we don't think about the organ level. when we're moving our bodies. And that's what I love about the Ayurvedic yoga. It's more okay, this is happening in your body. let's look at the liver, right? So you're doing side bends and the liver and the spleen and just incorporating more of those, organs, like the systems of the body. It's not just about. the [00:29:00] large muscle groups and releasing tension, which feels great and is lovely and good for energy and marma points and things like that. But we can also work at the organ level and the hormonal level. **Michelle:** Yeah, for sure. And do you also include pranayama? Yeah. **Kerry:** I do breath work. I don't do we're going to do half an hour pranayama every time, but I will integrate breath work or pranayama techniques. When they're suited for the theme or what we're doing with our bodies, sometimes mudra as well. So like, let's, Which is our hand gesture. Yeah. It's like a seal. **Michelle:** again, see, it relates to the meridians and the energetic connections in the body. It's like our body's like a circuit. So putting our fingers together in certain positions will actually link that circuit and, and have it continue. **Kerry:** Yeah, yeah, and [00:30:00] I was never really into mudras  for quite a while of my yoga journey like I was like Oh, yeah, let's I'm gonna stick my fingers together do whatever all the things that you know Yeah, mudra and so on that you see all the time and then someone actually sat down and we we I learned and I experimented with like slowly touching your fingers together and then like you know, do you want to increase something or decrease something, et cetera. And it was actually very profound.  And that energetic piece, I believe it, and it's now Ayurveda as well. And in yoga, energy is the thing that connects. The element that connects body and mind. Right. We're always talking about body and mind, but what is it that's, that's going on to connect those two? It's the energetic body. And pretty soon I am hoping western science will get on [00:31:00] board. It slowly **Michelle:** It is. It's really fascinating. I mean, that's a lot of Dr. Joe dispenses. He's always talking about like energy frequencies, and he talks about how we can connect and he does a lot of scientific research on it actually. So he looks at the brain waves and how they respond to certain meditations and certain energy movements. He does also breath a specific breath. And a lot of people have Kundalini awakenings. That's what it, I mean, he doesn't call it that. He talks about it more scientific and he talks about chakras. He doesn't call it chakras. He calls it energy centers. And it's basically the same thing that we've been, you know, we've been taught years ago, thousands of years ago. And ultimately, I mean, people are having Kundalini rising. They, they see this light, they feel this incredible energy just shooting through their spine from the base. It opens up cause that's where the Kundalini of people haven't really learned about that. They say that there's this [00:32:00] dormant energy at the root of your spine. That's always there, but it's sleeping. And so sometimes  doing. Yep. And when we do breath work or certain types of exercises, it can actually awaken that when that awakens, a lot of people have spontaneous healing, spontaneous remission, and it's really fascinating. So his work is also very much based on quantum physics. And if you look at a lot of the old work and teachings of ancient cultures. They describe pretty much what we're learning as quantum physics. And it ultimately comes down to the fact that we are mostly energy and much, much, much, much less matter than we really think we are. We're like 0. 0000001. It's like a million tons of zeros. And then one, that's how our matter is. And if we actually Take it like the space actually is way more in between the [00:33:00] particles in our bodies and just what we  see. So it's kind of like an illusion. It's really fascinating. So we really are vibratory beings, which is why vibration sound really impacts our bodies. I can nerd. I  **Kerry:** I, I'm going to go, I'm going  to,  **Michelle:** all day long. **Kerry:** I know me too. Well, I, well, there's two things I wanted to talk about, but first I want to talk about space and spaciousness, openness. And I often say to my students, like magic happens in the space. So when we think about the body, We need space in our body, openness, spaciousness, for our body to function, right? between the synapses, there's a little gap, right? It's tiny,  but it's there. And that we have, we need to have space, the womb, let's not forget, that is space. openness, spaciousness, [00:34:00] right? we have to have space in our digestive track and air and things like that to keep it moving. And now I'm like going off the deep end and also Ayurveda of course, right? anything that is moving in our body is the air and ether element and ether is spaciousness, it's openness. And so I often emphasize this idea you in class of creating space. When we move our pelvis, we're creating space. We're opening up, we're releasing blocked energy, if you will, or like stagnant blood, like we are getting things moving. And when things are moving, the magic happens, right? Like the space, we need that spaciousness. Oh yeah. I  **Michelle:** that.  **Kerry:** Yeah. The **Michelle:** Well, it's, it's so cool. I mean, cause, cause that's one of the things that Joe Dispenza does is he first, he almost puts you in an induction with his [00:35:00] meditations and he says space, and he wants you to focus on like this endless space. But the reason why is there's a rhyme. There's a reason for everything that he does is that when our minds focus on space, it actually creates. I don't know how to how he described it. Actually. I mean, I go to so many of his stuff, but I don't remember everything but he said that when you do that, I think it takes you almost to a different mind. Mental frequency brainwave when you start to focus on space. **Kerry:** Well, so Yoga Nidra, which we had talked about previously, but Yoga Nidra, which is like a 5, 000 year old technique that the yogis came up with it is about, it is about that. It is about slowing down your brainwave to delta wave, which is what your brainwaves would be like if you were in deep sleep. And why do we love deep sleep so much? Because that's when we heal, that's when we [00:36:00] process and calibrate and so on. Our organs are doing their cleaning up and all that and it's so important and it's definitely related to fertility that deep sleep state. And Yeah, with Yoga Nidra, we're purposefully going there, but being conscious when we're there. So it's an experience that we would never do. We would never get to that state on our, on our own naturally. Like we'd either be in deep sleep or we wouldn't be in Delta. So this is what I love about Yoga Nidra. And like you were saying, just even the concept of thinking about. Space or expansiveness or you know, you're in an airplane, you look out the window and all you see is infinite space. it never ends. It just goes on and on and on. Right. But yeah, it does, slow us down. It slows down the brainwave so we can get out of the, the gamma or the, you know what we're in right now [00:37:00] talking. **Michelle:** Yes. And it also gives you a sense of freedom. You just feel this like sense of peace and freedom from that space. Cause then you're like, ah, you know, there's just so much, and there's so many possibilities and it's open. And so for people actually who have not heard of yoga, Nidra, can you explain what it is exactly? **Kerry:** Okay. So yoga nidra, like I said, it's thousands of years old. It has so many benefits. I mean, it's so many like deep healing, but also like physical deep healing, but also mental emotional. So it takes, you know, sort of these deeply ingrained, maybe even ancestral patterns that we have, we can start to change those patterns. The body can process all of those things. It's so, it's. It's, it's the Soma we say in yoga, it's the sweet nectar. [00:38:00] It's the nectar that we want for our bodies, especially during fertility, but also to for overall health and longevity. We want to have that sweetness and that nectar in us. And what I use it for, I do a ton of Yoga Nidra in classes. It is It is a progressive deep relaxation technique. It that it has been, Huberman has taken it and called it non sleep deep rest because it's more palpable to Western mind. So it's been an eye rest and all these things. So it's yoga nidra has been taken and repackaged in many different ways for our Western minds. I love the traditional one. Of course, I'm sure you probably do too. And. Yeah, you just, you go  ## Marker **Kerry:** progressively to put your body to sleep. So you go through body parts and you relax those body parts and we can, instill or implant a message. [00:39:00] We call it sankalpa, but you can call it whatever you want. Affirmation, it's not quite the right word. Intention maybe of what deep healing you want to happen. And that's sort of implanted throughout the deep relaxation part. And then yoga nidra is actually a state. It's not the progress of getting there. So yoga nidra is when you are, your body's asleep, you're conscious. But your brain is in these sort of Delta waves and sometimes you get there, sometimes you don't, and sometimes the journey is joyful to, to get there too, right? So it's not oh, you have to get to that state to get any benefit. You're still getting all that parasympathetic work going on. The body feels safe and protected. And most people feel very blissful. afterwards, they often say, Oh, it's like hypnotic that there's like this [00:40:00] hypnosis. And my voice too, I think it's like low and like kind of slow and steady. They're like, Oh, I just hear your voice and I start to relax. Right. So it is a really powerful tool. And if I were to choose one thing, like people say, what yoga pose should I do to help my fertility? If I could choose one thing I would say do Yoga Nidra for at least 40 days straight **Michelle:** Yeah, **Kerry:** and see what happens. I think it's perfect. And I have a program, 40 days, a 40 day program where you have the option to do Yoga Nidra every day if you wanted to, or meditation. So yeah, it's, it's perfect. It's really powerful. really **Michelle:** is so cool. And I'm excited actually to have you as a guest contributor to my fertility hypnosis toolbox. Soon. I know a lot of people, listeners are probably on there, so you guys I'll be very excited. I think by the [00:41:00] time this is out, probably going to  **Kerry:** it. to you. I promise. I will do it. I feel honored  **Michelle:** have time. you have time.  **Kerry:** Yeah, I  know. But I wanted to make it, this is me. I want to make it, I don't want to just maybe take an old recording that, you know, It's, you know, been out there for a while. Like I want to make new things for you and also like, where do we need the yoga nidra the most? Like the two week wait, perfect time, um, after law. So you know, I want to theme them so that there's it hits home for what people need the most. **Michelle:** Well, I'm so grateful for that and I'm grateful for this conversation. I think this is awesome. I can nerd out on this stuff  **Kerry:** too. Me too. Me too. I **Michelle:** I think we're on the same page. **Kerry:** I am **Michelle:** fascinating.  **Kerry:** nerdy about it. And, **Michelle:** Yeah. **Kerry:** and, I mean, I know, I love what you do. All the messaging that you're sending out there to those that are on this journey, I think it's so valuable and, [00:42:00] and needed. we need more voices that are like, here, right? here, **Michelle:**  the ancient stuff, kind of like the bridging that ancient wisdom, that ancient nurturing, really connecting with nature. Cause I know that you also are a big fan of nature and being out in nature. And I think that really just kind of coming home to like our authentic authenticity of, as humans, and sort of the tribalness that, you know, coming home to really our roots and the sacredness that we have also as women. I think that that's there's so much power in that. And I think that a lot of people are thirsting for that. And that's why I nerd out on this. I say, it's you know, I could say my brain nerds out now, but I think my soul nerds **Kerry:** Mm. Oh, I love that. Yes, my soul nerds out on it. That is so good. I love that. I'm gonna use it  if I  can't  **Michelle:** said, well, Carrie, like I, we had such a great conversation also on your podcast, **Kerry:** yes  **Michelle:** guys. Yes. I highly recommend you guys [00:43:00] check out her podcasts. Fringe fertility. So it is definitely like something that I highly suggest. Cause you're going to get more of this amazing conversation on there and she has other guests on there. So yeah, very  **Kerry:** thanks for the shout out for the podcast. Thank you. Yeah. Well, it was a pleasure to be here today and sharing this conversation. I could just do it forever and ever. **Michelle:** for sure. And also before we go, how can people find you? What are the best ways? **Kerry:** sure. So yeah, I have a website Fertile Body Yoga. So it's a virtual yoga studio dedicated to fertility. So fertilebodyyoga. com. That's probably the, the lead in place to find me. I'm on Instagram as well. I'm not a huge Instagrammer though. And lately, I'm feeling like I just might need to walk away because for my mental health. But I do have an Instagram account. It is fertile body yoga there. And yeah, like I'm always doing [00:44:00] some great collaborative workshops and I have a retreat coming up at the end of April. You can cut this out if it's not the right timing, but so an in person retreat in New Hampshire at the end of April with. Two lovely co creators. So that, that's the big thing. That is huge. This has been years in the making and it's  finally  **Michelle:** That's so exciting. Well, congratulations. That's really cool. **Kerry:** Yeah. Thank you. **Michelle:** Awesome. Well, Carrie, this has been a pleasure and we really do have great conversations. I could tell you that we definitely are very aligned in a lot of the way we view the body and really view the fertility journey. And also thank you for sharing your own experience and now sharing your story. Cause I think that a lot of people will be inspired by that as well. So thank you so much. This has been amazing. Perfect.  **Kerry:** Thank you. for having me.[00:45:00] [00:46:00]     

On tomorrow's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Alana McGlashan of @thenurturedwomban_ shares her personal fertility challenge story and experience with Asherman's syndrome. She discusses the complications she faced after a miscarriage and the diagnosis of severe Asherman's syndrome. Alana shares her journey of healing and preparing her body for conception, as well as her experiences with pregnancy and loss. She emphasizes the importance of connecting with the heart and womb, and the power of self-trust in the healing process. I was deeply moved by her story of hope and how she found strength to listen deeply to her soul's calling and knowing that she was meant to have her children. Be sure to tune in!   Description:   Alana experienced miscarriage, Ashermans Syndrome & infertility on her journey to conceive. Navigating Asherman's Syndrome was one of the hardest times of her life as she was told due to the severity she may not be able to have children. Sending her on a healing journey that although may have taken 2 years, she now has 2 children later. The medicine she found on her journey she now shares with women in her 1:1 energetic womb explorations, helping women to rewrite the story they have been told on their own fertility journey & setting the foundations for profound healing. You can find her on Instagram @thenurturedwomban_     For more information about Michelle, visitwww.michelleoravitz.com   Click here to find out how to get the first chapter of "The Way of Fertility" for free.   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:     [00:00:00] Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Alana. Alana: Hi, how are you going? Michelle: Good. So I'd love for you to share your story. I know that it's been a very personal fertility challenge story and definitely defied the odds from what you were told. And I love stories of hope. So I'm very excited to have you on and share your story and your experience with Asherman's syndrome, which I think a lot of people aren't really aware or may not even be aware that they actually have. Alana: Yeah, absolutely. And at the time, you know, I had no idea what it was and it was something I was searching for in the hopes to hear hope, because I was just hearing a lot of stats and a lot of Let's say stories that I didn't, I didn't want to hear at the time. So I felt pregnant and lost that little baby at 10 weeks. Alana: And I was a scientist working in Sydney, which is from [00:01:00] where I live, two hours travel away. And I went to the early early pregnancy. room, and they gave me all these options of what you can do next. And. At the time, everything, I would say I was heavily in my masculine energy. Like all just do the things, list out the steps and we will follow them to become parents. Alana: And because I traveled so far away, I took the option of a DNC, which is a dilation and curette. I'm not sure if that's called anything else anywhere else. And it's just basically the surgical removal. Yeah. Okay, cool. And yeah, and I woke up to complications after that. And, you know, after being told like, it's so routine and I just thought, you know, it would be simple. Alana: We do this and then I have a bleed and we can start trying again. And I woke up to, yes, as I said, complications. And [00:02:00] feeling really disorientated and I just felt really in my gut like wow what what just happened and they kind of just brushed me off and My doctor, then later, just was like, okay, well it's been six weeks, you haven't got your bleed back. Alana: Sometimes women need a little bit longer. And I just knew in my gut things weren't right. And for me, I had no period. So 12 weeks, post that surgery. I still had no period. Yeah. And I think maybe around the eight weeks I, I was like, no, my gut's telling me something's not right. I'm going to book a specialist appointment and because they take so long to get into, I thought I'm just going to book it now. Alana: And if I don't need it, then I can cancel it.  Michelle: Did you, did you know anything at the time? Did they say something was off or you just kind of felt Alana: yeah, they, there was nothing ever mentioned of Ashman syndrome. The only thing that they mentioned, I mean, they obviously mentioned some risks that can happen and the risks, risks are a perforated uterus, but it's so [00:03:00]routine that if that was to happen, that was really negligence. And that was all that they had described as a potential risk. Alana: So I hadn't even heard of Ashman's by this point, like, and so I followed my gut, made this appointment and it must have been around the four month mark after surgery and I told him my story thinking I was just going in there to get a tablet that would just help kickstart everything. Maybe I just needed some help to get things along. Alana: And again, you know, I was, I was very naive at that time on, of my cycle and understanding my body. And I walked in and told him my story. And basically he said, we, there's something called Ashman syndrome, and I feel that this is, this is your situation. And. We need to get in and have a look like, cause he could do it via scans and then go in and do surgery, but he's like, due to the nature of how long you've already waited and the scar tissue that would be there if it was [00:04:00] confirmed. Alana: We need to get this cleaned up ASAP basically. Michelle: Before we continue on the details, I want people to know like, what is Asherman's syndrome? Alana: So Ashman's syndrome is basically where scar tissue grows inside the uterus and reduces your fertility as a result from some form of surgery. So they might try and say just from DNC, but if you have a baby and maybe there's retained placenta and they clean it out that way, any sort of surgical intervention within your uterus, Could potentially scar. Alana: And I think what's important for women to know right now is that any change in your period. Or if you're experiencing difficulties falling could be a sign. I have no women after, so the percentage is actually quite low. I forgot to look it up before we jumped on today of Ashermans. But The other women that I had sort [00:05:00] of searched for to bring awareness to our local hospital and their procedures, they had their period, but their periods just were different, a little bit lighter, maybe they didn't go as long, there was just a lot less. Alana: small signs, which they quite easily then got fobbed off as just being paranoid in a sense. And then all turned out to have different stages of Ashman's, whereas I had none and my stage was quite high. Actually the highest he had seen in my local area. So that was not good news for me. Michelle: Yeah. Alana: yeah, so long story short, he said we need to operate and Confirm, and if so, it's a 20 minute procedure, I'll be in and I'll be out. Alana: And, I thought, oh, I thought my legs were pulled out from me at that moment, but from that surgery I woke up and I felt really disorientated, as you do, and he's standing there waiting for me to wake up to tell me that, [00:06:00] yes, I've confirmed it's Ashman's Syndrome, however, it is so severe, I I've been in there for four hours and I can't see without risking damage to your uterus. Alana: And I need to do some further tests before we continue. And I remember the first thought I thought of was, am I going to be able to have children? And he had this solemn look on his face and he goes, I have no idea what's possible right now. And I was just. Gutted. Absolutely gutted. Michelle: Wow. That is so real. I mean to be in a situation like that and just thinking, okay, I'm going to go in and have the surgery and everything's going to be fine, it's going to be, what did he say? 20 minutes? And to actually see that it's really severe so what happened after that?  Alana: Yeah, so I then had to go you have to allow a little bit of [00:07:00] time for some healing and they put in, I think it depends for the surgeon, but I got a gel put in that just kind of tried to help what he did pull away with the scar tissue not to reform because there is a risk that as he opens it up, like the little spindles might. Alana: touch and then start to pull together. So they put in this gel that lasts, I think, for four weeks. So I had to wait a month. And then he sent me for a we call it here a sonar histogram. So it's just a ultrasound where they insert water into your uterus. And then they can see like a good picture, the flow, if there's any blocks. Alana: And I think for women that might have blocked fallopian tubes, sometimes they use this and it can either unblock or at least identify that the fallopian tubes are blocked. And, I'm just going to say that was the worst pain I had ever been in getting that. And again, no one warned me that it could be uncomfortable. Alana: And I wouldn't say uncomfortable [00:08:00] was the word. And I was just so lucky. I had a girlfriend who came with me and just said, look, I can, I can sit here and hold your hand while they do this. And it probably turned out the reason why for me it was so painful, but I have now heard many other women describe it as quite excruciating. Alana: Is that my, most of my uterus? was scarred to the point that it was nearly completely shut. Michelle: Oh, wow. Alana: And so they were trying to obviously shove water in it and like open it up when it could not. And so that again was like a really hard thing to take. And the specialist had said that he will have to do this with multiple surgeries. The good news is there is a side, there's a little part that is open and he believed if he could get to there, then he could. Remove the rest and it may take a few surgeries, but he just wanted to take his time. Alana: He didn't want to [00:09:00] cause more damage. And so we had just resigned to the fact that this is a process that needs to be done and there's no rushing it. And the good news was the next surgery, he was able to remove all the scar tissue. And again, he inserted the gel so that the hopes that nothing would close back up. Alana: And then I had another follow up, just normal ultrasound, because I said, I was too scarred to have that other ultrasound again and yeah. And then from there he's like, okay, this is great. You know, we've got, we've got rid of it. The uterus has opened back up. It's gone to normal shape again. Let's work on your lining. Alana: So a. Do I call it a symptom afterwards? Is that Your lining may not become thick again. And he is also an IVF specialist. So he was really [00:10:00] wanting my lining to get to a certain thickness that he would put his, or would want his IVF patients to be on which just was not happening. And at first it was really disheartening. Alana: And so he'd reached out to, there's a guru in Sydney, and then he went further. I think it was It was overseas and he just said, you know, like some of them don't come back, you know, any thicker. And that is, that is their lining. And so obviously being a scientist, I had read all the papers, read all the stats and nothing was looking great to have a baby. Alana: Some women had not many in the severity that I had. And if they did have one that were high risks the risk was the placenta could attach to your uterus muscle. And just a whole heap of other things that you really don't want to hear when all you want to do is be a mom. [00:11:00] And yeah, so it was like, I just kept going to this place and this place just kept giving me the answers that did not agree with what was in my heart. Alana: And I just thought this can't be my story. This can't be my only story. And I just had this feeling to expand where I was looking. And so I started to research other modalities. And I thought, you know what, if I can just help support my body, who knows what's possible. And I ended up finding a traditional Chinese medicine practitioner who specialized in fertility and I went there weekly for two years. Alana: Yes. And I felt good. I felt like this was where I was meant to be, but it was really hard to hear the things that she[00:12:00] was saying. Like your body can be trusted. Your body can self heal. Everything's possible because at the time I was so, as I said, in my masculine energy of stats and facts that. Michelle: hmm. Alana: how, how, and it wasn't until obviously with the, with the acupuncture and the herbs, my mind started to heal, my heart started to heal, that then my womb had a chance to heal. Alana: And of course it sent me on this huge journey, deep dive into energetics of the womb and its capacity, its ability. And I started to believe that, whoa, okay. She's a powerful organ, and not just organ, portal for creation. And, Alana: Right? Tingles! Yeah! Michelle: Yeah. When you said heart, that struck me. 'cause I know that the heart's connected to the uterus. Alana: And, [00:13:00] it wasn't, it took me a long time to put two and two together. And, your emotional state. And like, the womb is the element of water, so your emotions. And it's the sister heart, right? So of course, our emotions are going to get stored in our uterus. And if she's too busy trying to hold our emotions that we're not processing, how was I giving her the space she needed to heal in the timeframe I wanted, you know? Alana: And it was just, my world had opened up. I still had at that time stayed close to the medical system. There was still fears, you know. that if I had fallen pregnant what that then might look like, what that journey may look like. And we decided to focus not on a baby at the moment, just focus on healing, get married. Alana: And I fell pregnant on my honeymoon or I found out on my honeymoon and we were so excited. But [00:14:00]again, I decided not to get a scan until a bit later, but that, that Bubby had decided only six weeks was it's time on this earth. And as, Sad as that was. It actually gave me the biggest sense of hope. And I realized the message was just give me time, Michelle: Oh, Alana: me time. Michelle: wow. Alana: And so I was like, okay, this is possible. That was without intervention. That was without any other, cause I had a lot of fear around anyone going in my uterus again, because of course I trusted someone to go in there and do their job. And I came out damaged and that really, and that like, not just you were hurt from that. Alana: That changed the projection of my life completely. And so I had a lot of mistrust. I didn't want anyone to go near it if I could help it. So I really wanted that natural approach. And as I said, as that strength between [00:15:00] heart and womb grew, I knew that that was going to be possible and I just had to trust that you know, the divine timing of trusting and surrender is not the easiest thing to fall into or follow, but. Alana: I just had to trust that my heart was guiding me on the path that, that then needed to be. Alana: Sorry, that brings up lots of emotions thinking about back then. Alana: And so, yeah, it was, it was actually quite interesting that the divine timing of the, that baby that I then lost the second time, my family suffered a significant loss in like my immediate family not long after. And. I believe that that baby also knew that it wasn't the time because I needed to be there for my little brother. Alana: And it was, I was just, [00:16:00] you know, at the time you just think, wow, I'm cop and blow after blow. But when you had the little bit of space, you just thought, well, how would I have been able to grow a baby right now? Like I am in so much grief. It, it was insane. And then once He was better. I went on a Bali trip with a best friend and we just, she's like, you just need to, you know, live life a little bit. Alana: And we went on this retreat and it was when we came back from that, we were like, okay, I feel like we're in a good place now. Like I'm in a good place. Let's just see what happens without the pressure and the timing and the scheduling. I didn't want conceiving to be a job. I really wanted it to be from the heart. And it was about, yeah, because I feel like when you're struggling, you really take the heart out of conceiving and conception. Michelle: is, you are, every single thing is a quote. I'm like, this is amazing. This is really, I'm [00:17:00] feeling this. Alana: Conception isn't just the creation between man and woman, Michelle: Yes. Alana: It's a co creation with the spirit of that baby and what it, what fuses that love, you know? And. I wanted the next baby to be strong, strong enough to like, whatever we needed to go through, we had each other. And.  Michelle: Like the stuff that you're telling, like it's making me emotional. Just so you know, like I'm really feeling every word that you're saying, not to interrupt, but continue. Alana: I probably needed that pause for a second. Yeah. And so then we found out in February I was pregnant and you know what? I knew, I knew instantly this was the baby, that this baby was going nowhere, that they were here and. My dreams had come true. There were still fears around the placenta attaching to my uterus and what that could mean. Alana: And at the end of the [00:18:00] day, I have resided to the fact that if this was going to be my only baby, so be it because I wanted this baby. And. Yeah, I was in, I was, I had an OB because if things did start to go south, we wanted to be on that early. But anyways, I had a beautiful pregnancy. No complications. Alana: The placenta was in a great spot. And it even got to the point, because most, the stats had suggested that women with Ashmans have. a caesarean. And again, that fear of do not go near that part of my body. I don't want you there. I really didn't want it if I didn't have to. And I said, can I, can I try, can I try and go natural? Alana: Like everything is going well. There is no indication of anything wrong. And it was looking good and she thought possibly, but then my son decided to stay in the breech position and [00:19:00] I was not in the place that I am in now where I would continue with a vaginal birth. I mean, I was born a breech baby vaginally. Alana: And so I found it really hard that the quote I was told was that we have lost the art to birth a breech baby or the skills, not the art. And I was like, Oh, okay. And then today I think, I'm sorry, who's birthing the baby? Michelle: Mm hmm. Alana: The mom, Michelle: Right? Alana: the mom is birthing the baby. Not you. Yes, you're assisting, but yeah, so, You know, my views today would have changed on that. Alana: But at the time, again, as I had mentioned, I, we just wanted the baby. And she did give me options to do that, like manipulation, my traditional Chinese medicine practitioner, she was doing all the things to create the space. Yeah. Everything. I had everything going. I had it at home on my toes. I was doing the [00:20:00] upside down poses, which mind you made me feel absolutely terrible. Alana: And so I just said to my husband, I can't do this. Like. This feels wrong. And and I have to resign to the fact that. He found his position and he was not moving and that's where he wanted to be. And then it was my choice to decide how then that, that became our birth together. And so we had a cesarean beautiful little boy, everything great. Alana: It all went great. And so afterwards, because of the scarring and that fear that I had around my uterus, I didn't want to fall back in a place of like dissociation and detachment from it. Like I had. Started to rebuild this relationship with my womb. And now they've just. Also added another scar. And I was like, well, I've had one baby who's to say I can't have another like, and so I went on another deeper journey again. Alana: And with my practitioner of healing this scar tissue and softening it before it has the chance to [00:21:00] really harden in preparation for the next baby. And. Michelle: And this was acupuncture or another Alana: Acupuncture at the beginning. And then it was probably for the first six months I did acupuncture and she showed me how to self massage my scar tissue. And what else did we do? There was just a lot of hands on touch. And I think her focus was to remind me that you can still have loving touch on your body. Alana: After everything I had gone through. And after six months, It got a little bit hard with a little baby cause she was in Sydney where I had found it cause it was close to where it was really hard to get up to her. And now that he was starting to move and be mobile, it was a lot harder to have a session on my own. Alana: And so then I started looking at other modalities. I thought, well, okay, I've done all the acupuncture. Let's see what else there is. And I come across a lady who did Yoni steaming and she did energetic [00:22:00] support. Consultations beforehand. And it became just a really beautiful practice where I could turn within and I could nourish myself and just steam and just visualize the blood flow going back to my uterus and everything being soft and really in that feminine essence, that feminine energy to allow that nurturing to happen to my womb. Alana: And I went weekly. Until my bleed came back, which was 14 months post as I was a breastfeeding mom postpartum. And, you know, we were kind of on this urgency, let's, let's fall pregnant straight away because of everything we had. We didn't expect it to take two years to get our son. And I'm already in my thirties. Alana: So there was like that time pressure to, all right, if we want more children, cause you know, we had always talked about having four and we're like, Oh gosh, I don't know if four is going to happen now, but if we can get. You know, on the roll, we'll see what happens. And so I had to reduce my breastfeeds to get my bleed [00:23:00] back so that we could fall pregnant. Alana: And when we decided to start consciously conceiving, so I think it was just the month of that I ended up with my bleed. I started to feel this essence, this person, this spirit around me. And it was the first time I had really started to attune into these senses. And. I just could feel this girl, this pink. Alana: I could see pink around me when when she'd just show up. And it was really interesting because the month I fell pregnant. So obviously that two week wait, I couldn't feel her. I didn't know where she was. And I was like, Oh, I feel like she's here. And I was pregnant and I didn't tell anyone apart from the lady that I went to Yoni steaming, because we'd always talk about, you know what, what do I feel like a baby might be? Alana: And I was like, to be honest, I can actually sense this female around me. And I just get these glimpses of[00:24:00] pink like a pink orb and yeah. And then it turned out I had a daughter and what was beautiful about that pregnancy, I mean, we didn't find out. I like to just wait till birth to find out what the gender of our babies are. Alana: And. I did not want to go back to the hospital system. I didn't want to be put in a place where they would just see my history and then start to implement things that then of course would lead to other interventions that I didn't want. I didn't want to be supported in that way. I knew the capability of my body. Alana: I, like my pregnancy was again, a really gentle, easy pregnancy. I mean, I was very sick, but overall easy. And. I decided to home birth. And again, that was like a huge thing. Like in my immediate community, you know, no one does that. And so I didn't want to tell anyone cause I didn't need anyone's opinion [00:25:00] to discourage me from this because I had, I think it was just before I tested on a stick and I only tested on the stick to show my husband, like I didn't, I already knew I was pregnant. Alana: I had this vision that the birth would be at home. And so I really just wanted to trust that That was again, where I needed to go and I needed to trust. And that took a lot of self confidence to be able to say, no, this is, this is what I want to do and why. And yeah, I had my daughter at home and now I always knew that like my journey was. Alana: A lesson to be learned. It was a, because if I continued on the path I had continued, I would not be the woman I am today. I wouldn't be the mother I am today. I wouldn't be making the choices I've been making for myself and my family today. And it was like a realignment, but also a [00:26:00] gift for medicine for me to be able to share with women. Alana: And, you know, I want my story to be heard, but I've also then set up my own business so that I can still be at home with my babes because I want to raise my children. And I want to help women who feel like their story is just hurdle after hurdle. And what I've learned in this, this journey is like what we see in our physical body is only the tip of the iceberg. Michelle: Oh, yes. Alana: Yeah, and like when we're looking and talking about our womb, the energetic womb, there is so much she holds and there's so much healing that needs to start there. And the first thing I like to check with women is that connection between heart and womb, is there coherence and resonance? How are they emotionally feeling? Michelle: my language. Alana: right. And, [00:27:00] and that's why I, I love listening to your podcast because I just was like, you get this.  Michelle: I feel the same way about you, by the way. Alana: And now I, I want women to like know how important it is to care for your womb and what we're seeing as manifestations on the physical side, the root cause. The reason that you may not be seeing change is not in the physical. It's in your energetics. Yeah. Michelle: 100 percent Oh my God. I mean, I'm telling you, like, I'm so moved by your story, but also it just fascinates me like beyond fascinates me. When you were saying that you're a scientist, like from somebody who came from a science perspective and background, and yet, even though you were still there, you still had your inner voice. Michelle: Letting know something was off, like the doctors didn't tell you anything was off. Nobody came to you after[00:28:00] the surgery and said, you know, something looks off. You figured it out. You knew it from the inside out. The wisdom within your body spoke to you Alana: Absolutely. Michelle: heard it. Alana: Yeah. And I think sometimes for women, if you allow that external noise to be too loud, you're going to feel it in your heart. You're going to feel it as grief, as sadness, as like, why is this happening? But that noise is too loud. Michelle: Mm Alana: And. You know, if, if all you take away from my story is that deep knowing it's okay to know that your path could be different and maybe that's your sign to go searching elsewhere Michelle: I mean, yeah, it's incredible. First of all, it takes a lot of courage. Oh, I mean, it takes a [00:29:00] lot of courage to hear something from an authority figure, especially if it's like people you're relying on and in the medical community and I'm just FYI, I'm not saying not to listen to your doctors but for your specific journey, your journey Had twists and turns and part of it did rely on you listening to your own gut and, and really getting to the bottom of it. Michelle: And you remind me a lot of a patient who came on the podcast, her name was Amy and she was in her forties. And she also was told she couldn't get pregnant with her own eggs and that she was approaching menopause. And she ended up having two babies afterwards, healthy babies. And she had this determination in her. Michelle: She was just, there was this. Kind of strength. And her voice was so loud, like her inner voice and not her voice. Her inner voice was so loud in telling her, no, no, no, no, no, you gotta, and she had this [00:30:00] determination within her that I see in you. And it's not something that is easy for everybody to answer that call. Michelle: Like it's not an easy call to answer Alana: No. And it's, it's a fire within, but it doesn't mean it's an easy path. And it's like, you have to have the courage to continue to choose, to continue to choose what you know to be true. And I had many challenges. There was many times where I was like, well, I feel like the universe sometimes goes, are you sure? Alana: Because you can choose here if you want to, because we were given choice on this, on this earth. Right. And you can choose to go this way because maybe you believe this is easier. Or keep going as a reminder, you know, just to, to, to choose and yeah, that fire and that courage, like there was a lot of times where I felt like, I don't know, [00:31:00] you know, because you don't know, there's so much unknown and the world really like thrives on structure because that brings safety and that brings knowing and this path can be so unknown and all, all you can do is put one foot. Alana: In front of the other and trust yourself, just trust in yourself, because then the pieces will start to fall and they will start to come. Yes, you may need to choose yourself, but keep choosing yourself and your baby. Because if you desire a baby, that desire is meant for you. Can you trust that? Michelle: You know what they say, there's that Rumi quote, it says, what you seek is seeking you. Alana: Yeah. Because otherwise, why would we? Why would we have that desire to do so? Michelle: I really believe that. That, thank you for saying that because I really, really believe that to be true. And I think a lot of people. learn from so many different opinions and so much of that noise, outside [00:32:00] noise, it dilutes their faith in that being true. Just because we don't have proof for something doesn't mean it's not true. Alana: Yeah. And you get to, you get to decide what's true for you. And I think that's when you come back to the medical system and your doctors is just having a place of discernment. Is this really true for you? And you know, if you can come from a place of self-trust and that self-trust guided you to go there, absolutely listen to that. Alana: Like my message is, listen and guide from within. Michelle: And when you talk about that heart, well, like there's this heart brain coherence, but the heart has. An energy field that's stronger than any other organ in our body. And people think it's all in the brain, but the heart actually has a way larger magnetic field. It has such an important role on our mind and it has such an important role on our uterus, [00:33:00]which is life giving and love gives life, breathes life. Michelle: So talk about that resonance and that coherence and what you've learned about it. When it comes to the heart and the uterus. Alana: so I want to start with a quote from Joe Dispenza that I had just recently heard, and it kind of just put the words to place of what I was feeling, and it, he says, We only accept, believe, and surrender to the thoughts that are equal to our emotional state. We only accept, believe, and surrender to the thoughts that are equal to our emotional state. Alana: And I was like, they're the words that I'm kind of searching for. Right. Because a lot of my sensations that come through me are feelings. So I knew the heart needed to heal and healing the heart allows for the womb to heal and this relationship, this agreement between the two, like the womb holding on temporarily to [00:34:00] emotions, to. Alana: then return to the heart so the heart can process and leave our body. And so there was a lot of practices that I have incorporated and I still do them daily where I will do a little visualization and my intention is always love. And You can still have love and gratitude, even if you're feeling deep sadness. Alana: And it's not about, I don't want to be sad anymore. Let's reject that. This is grief is one of the deepest emotions you can have that has profound healing when you allow it to run its course. Michelle: Yes. Alana: And I think for women who are trying to conceive, when you're struggling, the thoughts that start to come up why me? Why is my womb not working? I can't, I [00:35:00] can't fall pregnant. I can't do this. You know there is anger, there is a disconnection and disassociation from your womb and really. In this society, we are already starting from a place of disconnection from our first bleed and reconnecting, honing in. And sometimes it's as simple as 30 seconds, close down your eyes, put your hand on your womb. Alana: You take a deep belly breath, Alana: visualizing your hands that are warm. That mama hug that you just love to feel. Wrapping around your womb. Alana: And then telling it, I love you. Thank you for everything you are doing. [00:36:00] I know you want this too. Alana: And then bringing your hand back to your heart space. Alana: Feel that heartbeat. Alana: Your own rhythm. beating in your womb Alana: and feel the love between the two. Alana: Maybe you like to envision a rope, a golden cord, connecting, vibrating, Alana: sending out this beautiful white light. That's so strong and so pure.[00:37:00] Alana: Feel it wrap around your body, Alana: feel it encapsulate you. Alana: And then on your next inhale, breathe it all back in, breathe it into your cells, every inch of your being, physical, emotional mental and spiritual Alana: and opening your eyes and practicing a simple visualization I found daily was strengthening this reconnection. It allowed my inner voice to be heard. It built trust and surrender to the process because pregnancy, birth, motherhood, it is all setting you up. It is not something that you can plan out. Alana: The key is surrender. Michelle: hmm. Oh, [00:38:00] yeah. Alana: I get reminded of that every day. Michelle: Yeah, I think we all do, even though we've been on the path for a long time, the spiritual path really, that is in the path of truth and alignment. It doesn't matter. We get reminded every single day and I can literally talk to you for hours. I mean, There's just so much, so much information, so many things, so many ahas that I felt talking to you and I really truly think that you are so aligned in, I mean, I literally think that you're channeling wisdom. Michelle: You're very much connected to that. I can feel it. I could feel the truth in your words. I can feel the alignment I feel the awareness and the knowing and the true knowing of thyself. I think know thyself that's like the key and the only way to do that is to get quiet and To connect with your inner wisdom and to hear what your body is telling you because the more you hear it The more your connection with it gets stronger. Michelle: And of [00:39:00] course I can talk to you for hours, but we don't have as much as I wish, but, but I would love for you to share how people can find you and how people can work with you. Alana: Yeah, absolutely. Michelle: are inspired, which I know they are from your story. Alana: So you can find me on Instagram at the nurtured woman. Womb, W O M B A N and currently the way to work with me is through my one on one sessions and they're energetic womb explorations for one hour where we can just dive into your current state, your desire, and really start honing into this connection between heart and womb with then obviously the opportunity to extend. Alana: But That is the point of contact. Michelle: Awesome. Well, I definitely feel you are connected to that womb. wisdom and I know that womb wisdom does actually speak to us. So Alana, [00:40:00] thank you so much for coming on here today. Sharing your incredible story, like really incredible. Like I felt it on every level of my being. It got me emotional listening to your story. Michelle: And I thank you so much for coming on today. Alana: you so much for having me. It was such a pleasure.

Allison is a Traditional Chinese Medicine Practitioner and Integrative Health Practitioner based out of Vancouver British Columbia. She is a fellow of the American Acupuncture and TCM Board of Reproductive Medicine (ABORM) and a member of the Obstetrical Acupuncture Association (OBAA). With additional training in fertility and reproductive health as well as her personal experience with stage 3 endometriosis, Allison is particularly passionate about treating endometriosis and chronic pelvic pain. Website: https://www.seaofqihealing.com/ Instagram: @sea_of_qi_healing Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sea_of_qi_healing For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ Transcript: Michelle:[00:00:00]Welcome to the podcast, Alison. Allison:Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Michelle: Well, I'm so excited to have you on and I thoroughly enjoy your Instagram, by the way. Allison: Oh, thank you. Michelle: you guys got to check out her Instagram. I have it in the episode notes. You have so much great information. Allison: Oh, thank Michelle: You're, you're really knowledgeable about your topic. Allison: Yeah, I, love doing any kind of, I love the social media part. I love educating. I love trying to have like a fun humorous spin on it too. So I have fun with my social media. Michelle: Awesome. So for the listeners , I would love it. If you can give us a bit about your background and how your own personal journey really got you to the work that you're doing. Allison: Sure. So I'm an acupuncturist and integrative health practitioner based out of Vancouver, B. C. And I have, special interest in kind of fertility, reproductive health, hormone health, menstrual cycle stuff. I was kind of thrown into that field of work upon graduating school. And[00:01:00]that's kind of when I fell in love with it, when I started learning more about the menstrual cycle and hormones and fertility. Allison: And I realized how much there is to know and how, how many, People who menstruate don't know about their hormones and fertility and so I thought it was such an important aspect of health to to educate more on and it wasn't until a few years into my practice that I was actually diagnosed with my own kind of hormone issues as well. Allison: So that's when I was diagnosed with gynecological condition and Andever since then, I've just been obsessed with learning everything I can about endometriosis and hormones and trying to help people that are kind of in the same shoes that I am. Michelle:  So,so tell us, well, how, how did you actually get into it? Did you, did you work for somebody who specialized in fertility? Michelle: When you got out of school, Allison: Yeah, so the clinic that I wanted to work at that I was kind of interning atin transitioning[00:04:00]into that was their kind of their their bread and butter. So they did a lot of fertility and women's health. And so upon graduating and starting to work there, it was just kind of part of my education of like all my program. Allison: You know, extended learning and mentorships and stuff were under people that specialized in fertility, so I had this, like, really great knowledge base and, you know, experience right off the bat, which was really crucial for specializing in this, and it was, yeah, it really, really helped a lot. Michelle: that's awesome And so I know that we hear a lot of common myths I mean one of the things I think that was eye opening for me is like Menstrual cycle like pms and all of the things that we have are actually not normal Even though they're common you don't realize this until you learn what you learn And that's when you're like, oh my god, this is actually not normal and it's It's an imbalance and we can work on that. Michelle: Like it almost feels like we just accept it as reality. So I'd love it if you could talk about some of the common myths[00:05:00]that you see and like, let's bust them. Allison: Yeah. I feel like that's a really huge one that like PMS and period pain is normal. And like to an extent, likea little bit of PMS, like a little bit of menstrual discomfort to an extent can be normal. I mean, your body's doing, you know, a very physical thing, but if there's like really severe PMS, that's really disrupting your quality of life. Allison: If there's really painful cramps, that's impacting your ability to go out with your friends or work or any of that, that's a, that's absolutely a sign that something is wrong, that there's a hormonal issue, there's inflammation, there's something else going on that we need to look further. And you're right, we are just kind of like programmed as women as like, this is just how it is. Allison: We just, you know, suck it up and get on with our day and that's just kind of how I feel like a lot of us, especially my generation, we were just kind of programmed to do that. This is just a part of being a woman and this is a normal part of being a woman. But in fact, our period and it's kind of like our monthly report card of how everything in her body is doing. Allison: And[00:06:00]it's such a great visual of like okay, these are my PMS symptoms and this is kind of what it's telling me. And then this is how my periodis. And this is what it looks like. And this is what it feels like. And that's also telling you so much information about your hormones. And I think that's kind of what I really love about Chinese medicine too, because even. Allison: If things are like, you know, normal, according to Western medicine, like I have a lot of patients with really bad cramps that go to their doctor and they're like, well, everything in your blood work is normal. Your ultrasound's normal, but they're still having like debilitating pain. And that's when I think like Chinese medicine. Allison: is really powerful because we'll obviously see like, Oh, you've got no tons of liver cheese stagnation or blood stasis, or I'm seeing so many symptoms of coldin the uterus. And it's almost like really, it's just really empowering. I feel like for the patient too, where it's like, no, we don't see everything like checked off as normal, even though your blood work and ultrasound is okay. Allison: I mean, that's really great too. But for Chinese medicine, we're always looking at[00:07:00]this deeper underlying pattern and all these subtleties. And it's kind of painting this picture of the imbalance. Michelle: Yeah, totally. It's it was really eye opening for me because I had one patient with severe PMS to the point where she was like, I have to avoid people because I'm just not like a kind person around that time. And she was just, and she was actually a friend of mine and I was like, you know what, I'll help you. Michelle: No problem. And so she started coming in And one time she wasn't trying to get pregnant and she was like, she thought she was going to be late because she was like, I'm not getting any of my symptoms and I'm supposed to get them right around this time. Something's off. And then all of a sudden she just gets her period. Michelle: She goes, what? She's like, I just got my period. And I'm like, exactly.I'm like, Allison: I love that. Michelle: G is flowing really freely right now. That's why.Allison: Yeah. That's like the magic of Chinese medicine. Michelle:Totally! Allison:The surprise Michelle: total flow. Yes,[00:08:00]exactly. It's like the flow, Allison: Yeah, your period should kind of sneak up a little bit on you. Yeah. Michelle: Yeah. I mean, you do feel, you know, you definitely like feel your body's cues and the same thing with ovulation. When you get really in tune with your body, it is important to be able to like pick up on the details, but it shouldn't be so severe to the point where you can't, like you said, you can't deal with normal life events. Allison: Mm hmm. Yeah, definitely. Michelle:So what are some of the most common things that you see when itcomes to the menstrual cycle irregularities? Regarding fertility,Allison: Yeah, so there's a lot of different patterns and that's kind of the really funpart about Chinese medicine is that we're kind of like little detectives and we're like piecing together every symptom and kind of painting this picture of what's going on internally with the patient. So I mean, like each organ system has its own characteristics and they all kind of play a role in fertility and overall health. Allison: Because we don't really[00:09:00]think of in Chinese medicine as, Oh,the reproductive organs are just their own specific thing. It's kind of the wholebody has has a, has a play in it. So like what you're talking about, the liver chi, the liver chi is so tied to menstrual health. I am working with liver chi day in and day out when I'm working with fertility and endometriosis and hormone health. Allison: So the liver chi is like really, really important to makesure that everything's moving smoothly in the body and that's emotionally and physically. And then like the spleen chi and stomach chi in the digestive system is also really important because we want to make sure that your body is able to get all the nutrients that it needs and there's not a lot of inflammation there. Allison: We want to make sure the blood is moving really smoothly, like blood stagnation, cheese stagnation digestive deficiencies. I see that a lot. And then the kidney organ system is also really tied to fertility in Chinese medicine because it's kind of like, gives you that kind of DNA deep level energy to the egg cells and the sperm cells. Allison: And so making sure that those are really healthy because a lot of poor lifestyle or[00:10:00]genetics can impact the kidney energy system. So we always want to kind of help support the kidney energy with fertility. Michelle:Yeah, for sure. What I find really interesting and hopeful about really how Chinese medicine talks about the kidneys and talks about like the essence is, is that there's like pre heaven and post heaven. And so yes, pre heaven, we can't really do much about because that's pretty much what comes from our parents. Michelle: But post heaven is really how we choose to live our life. And we've seen that we can actually reverse age like biological age through the choices that we make. And I find that to be great. It's very empowering to know that your choices can make a difference on your body. Allison: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that kind of goes back to where I really feel like Chinese medicine is such an empowering medicine because there's so much that you can do, diet, lifestyle, herbs, supplements, acupuncture, all those things really can have such a huge positive impact. And it's kind of like, yeah, I love the pre heaven and post heaven. Allison:We are[00:11:00]kind of given what we're got with like our basic genetic blueprint, but our post heaven essence is like epigenetics, where we have the huge percentage of, you know, influence over our health, no matter what our genes are saying and we have so much influence over that that part of it, and I think Chinese medicine plays a huge role in that. Michelle: And do you find that there is a correlation because I mean, listen, we're living in a, a very toxic life, like the environment, everything's just like around us and the foods that we eat, the extra ingredients that they put in it's it's the reality is that you really have to be careful on what you expose yourself to, what kind of cosmetics. Michelle: and the endocrine disruptors, I feel like that really bogs down the liver and It weakens its ability to do its job. And then sometimes I'll see things like Fibroids or certain things kind of popping up because the body's not able to likereally clear up the toxins. Michelle: And sometimes I'll find that the[00:12:00]person is working in an environment that has more toxins than normal. And so we have to kind of work extra, a little extra to release that or clear that out. And even for IVF, I like to do that as well. Right after retrieval do some kind of like very mild, you know, nothing too harsh But like mild liver detox to just help the body release the excess hormones, you know Because I really feel like that aspect of it can really impact the way the reproductive health expresses itself. Allison:yeah, I completely agree. I think there's a lot of, a lot of things in our world right now that are impacting our liver. And we are, as Chinese medicine practitioners, seeing that reflected a lot in liver cheese stagnation. And I think that's why there's so much PMS and period pain and infertility kind of that's pretty rampant because we are seeing, like I don't think I have a single patient where theirliver didn't need like a little bit of support in the Western sense and in the Chinese. Allison: medicine sense.[00:13:00]So yeah, I do love that you that you do payattention to that. And especially like post IVF or something, when all those medications you're it's really working the liver and not that those are bad medications at all because they're really useful and they're doing really wonderful things for patients to help reach their, their goals. Allison: But yeah, you're right. I do think there is a place where we can kind of help support the liver, especially post IVF. Michelle: Yeah for sure. So as far as endometriosis, I know that like gut health is really, really, really important when it comes to endometriosis. So the inflammation, how that impacts leaky gut. So what are some of the correlations or like the patterns, not necessarily just with Chinese medicine, and you could talk about that as well, but like just some of the links that you've noticed or the things that tend to go hand in hand. Michelle: With endometriosis. Allison: Yeah, that's a really good question. I love that you asked that because endometriosis is such a full body disease, like it's not just[00:14:00]something that's happening in the pelvis. So yeah, the gut connection is huge. I find that to be honestly, like one of the biggest roots of something that we need to focus on and kind of like rectify with a lot of my patients with endometriosis because the gut is such a foundational pillar of health. Allison: And so if there's anything going on there with like leaky gut ormicrobiome or their subclinical gut infections or SIBO or whatever is going on, then we really need to work on. Kind of correcting the dysbiosis because not onlydoes that create a lot of inflammation, but there's also such a huge microbiome and bacterial component to endometriosis. Allison: Like, there's so much research coming out about how people withendometriosis have different vaginal and uterine microbiomes. And all of our microbiomes in our body are connected. So I really do feel like if we focus a lot on gut health and working on any kind of issues that are super apparent there, then it makes such a huge difference in like overall inflammatory levels, which are totally going to[00:15:00]help with a lot of the endosymptoms and the endo pain.  Allison:But also kind of helping with the microbiome component is really important for fertility because we do know a good vaginal and uterine microbiomeis super important for fertility, but I also find it really helpful for endosymptoms. And then I also love looking at the nervous system because I find that if we're kind of like, if we've got some like circadian rhythm dysfunction, because we're not sleeping well or we don't have good sleep hygiene or if we're just kind of continuously operating out of fight or flight mode and we're just never in parasympathetic mode, that's going to totally cause a lot of inflammation in the body and that's going to absolutely affect your endometriosis. Allison: So those are two things that I find. a lot of people with endo can benefit from working on. And that's, yeah, correcting any gut dysbiosis and really working on gut health. And then also really working with the nervous system. Like we really need to work on this chronic stress epidemic and like having a good circadian rhythm. Allison: I've been doing a[00:16:00]lot of, I've been like looking a lot into like the cortisol awakening response lately. I've been really nerding out about it and how it's how your cortisol levels like really need to have that initial spike in the morning. And not only for you to like feel good and get out of bed, but also it's areally important indicator of like inflammatory levels in your body. Allison: And there's also a really important autoimmune component. And we do know that endometriosis has this kind of auto-immune overlap with it. And so any of my patients that I am hearing like, Oh, how do you feel like when you get out of bed? Like, how long does it take you to kind of feel alive in the morning? Allison: Once you get out of bed, if it's like, Oh, two hours and five cups of coffee. I definitely know that there is some cortisol awakening response that we need to kind of work on in order to like really help with the immune and inflammatory stuff. So, yeah, those are a couple of things that I'm always looking at for my endo patients. Michelle: That's really great information. Vaginal microbiome I think is huge because I actually was at a mega spore[00:17:00]biotic on the microbiome labs.They had a little conference and I listened to a lecture by Dr. Jolene Brighton and she was talking about the vaginal microbiome and Allison: Oh, I love her. Michelle: She's amazing.Michelle: She always has great information. She just always delivers. And so she talked about that and she said that in, in Spain, they'll always check the vaginal microbiome. And especially when people are doing IVF and transfers specifically. And I had one of my patients going to Spain. Michelle: A lot of people go to Spain. I mean, they save money. The only thing is they lose money with the flights and everything, but they're really good doctors and like the clinics are great. And so what they do is they actually have, I'm almost like always on a protocol to check their vaginal microbiome. Michelle: They always check it before transfers and they have these women going on vaginal suppositories for the microbiome to support it. And I had. A recent patient who was like advanced[00:18:00]maternal age and she's pregnant. But she was on the suppositories. Michelle: They were checking and making sure because they said that she was mentioning that there's a link between, I guess, imbalanced vaginal microbiomes, a little different in the sense that it's. Like, you don't want diversity. You want it to be more like a specific type of strain. She was saying that there's a connection between a poor balance of the vaginal microbiome and recurrent miscarriages, unexplained infertility and failed transfers. And that's huge. That's so important. And nobody really checks here. Like. In our world, North America. Allison: Yeah. Well, actually in Vancouver, where I am, there's one clinic that does for some patients. And I, I have like the past, yeah, the past year. So I've been having a lot more patients do some microbiome testing. They'll do the swab. It's called the Emma Ellis. I think that they do it here. In in a couple of the clinics and they'll do the probiotic suppositories. Allison: And I honestly like tell my patients to go get them[00:19:00]too and jerk them where they can find them because I think it's always a benefit. Like it's not, it's such a harmless intervention. It can only help like and it's, they're so easy to do. It's so affordable. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and it does improve transfer results and pregnancy rates and everything, and so, yeah, I'm, I'm a huge fan of  Michelle: no brainer. Allison: testing for fertility. Allison:Yeah, Michelle: Yeah. It's a no brainer. And I think that it's so important and I, I'm so glad you brought it up. And I'm glad to know that some places are doing it places. I haven't seen it yet. I haven't seen that to be like really. And I've been actually running it for some of my patients. But I'm glad to Allison: Oh, nice. Michelle:people are starting to do that. Michelle: That's great. And then as far as a nervous system and circadian rhythm, that's huge because it's kind of like, I always look at it almost as like the second-hand is going to impact the hour hand. So like the second hand could be like our 24-hour cycle versus our 30 day cycle or[00:20:00]infradian rhythm. So the circadian rhythm impacts the infradian rhythm. Michelle: So it's important to have a good circadian rhythm. Interestingly, if I lookback, I had, I also have a history of We all started as patients, a lot of us. So I have a Allison: Yeah, right? Ah. Michelle:I did was I, I used to have the worst circadian rhythm. I used to not beable to wake up in the mornings. Michelle: Like I would, if left to my own devices, I would stay up until like, I would sleep until 2 PM some days when I was like younger in my twenties, andthen I'd. I'd stay up till two, three, four sometimes. I mean, I was just completely off and I don't know, I always blamed it on college or whatever, but it was just definitely my rhythm. Michelle: It was just the way my body was. And now I'm much more regular just over time. And it kind of synchronized with like my, menstrual cycle. So is that something that you see often?[00:21:00]Allison: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, and it always kind of goes back to like, Chinese medicine roots of like, we, we need to sync with nature. Like, when the sun's down, that's our yin time. That's not the time to do a lot of work or exercise. That'sthe time that we're supposed to be slowing down. We're supposed to be asleep.  Allison: Like, I'm always coaching my patients, like, I want you in bed. by 10pm, 11pm at the latest. I do not care if, like, you're naturally a night owl. Like, that is the kind of ideal Chinese medicine bedtime. Because we really do get those better hours of sleep in the earlier hours of the night. We get that deep, restful sleep. Allison: And it really does make a huge difference. I've been, yeah, personally, like, really prioritizing regular sleep cycle the past couple years. And it's been, like, revolutionary for me for how I feel like mood and energy, but also I my endosymptoms and I also had an autoimmune disease. And so it's been really helpful for that. Allison: So I think it's really easy to overlook the basics of like, well, I'm gettingmy eight hours, even if I'm going to bed at 2am or,[00:22:00]you know, sleep, I'm getting enough, I'm getting about six, seven hours. That should be enough. But it's like really irregular times. Like your body can't really cope with that. Allison: And I think it's really important that we go back to these like. Super basic principles of like, are you sleeping on time? Are you eating at regular intervals?Are you doing regular movement? Like these really basic things, these small habits really add up to make such a huge difference in health problems and especially even like super complex chronic health problems. Allison: It can be really revolutionary. Michelle:Oh yeah. And there's definitely studies that have been linked to irregular periods and also infertility when it comes to having night shifts. So like night shift hours, it really impacts the reproductive health. So it's really fascinating because it's not just the hours. It's really when it's the, when. Michelle: not just the amount. Allison: Mm hmm. Michelle: So I studied Ayurvedic medicine. That was also very eye opening when it comes to like really understanding the rhythms of nature and how[00:23:00]our bodies synchronize and also the elements of food and really understanding like how our bodies do better. Michelle: It's almost like really understanding the time cycle of the day and optimizing it. And when it comes to intermittent fasting. Fasting itself is actually really, it could be very beneficial if done right. And I want to say that like really,really in strong words, if done right, because I personally, from what I understoodand how much I've, I've learned as far as the sun goes, like the sun helps our acne, which is our digestifier. Michelle: So if we, the best time to eat really is during the day. So breakfast lunch, lunch should be the largest meal of the day and that's when you should have those difficult to digest proteins and have that like during that time because at that time the sun is at its highest Where the day is the most young it could be and so you want that young energy that[00:24:00]fire to be supported by nature's rhythms to help your own digestive fire and And then what you could do if you want to fast is fast at night versus in the morning. Michelle: And that's what a lot of people do. They'll fast in the morning and it's been shown that it could possibly not be great for women because it's been mostly studied on men and they have a completely different rhythm. So that's something that I always suggest. If you really do feel that you need to fast for a little bit and have like a little break digestive wise, it's better to do it when the sun goes down. Allison: Yeah, I completely agree. And I do feel the same about fasting. Like, I, to an extent, I like fasting, like, you know, a good maybe 12, 13 hours, maybe 14 hours for some metabolically flexible people, but I've always been a huge component of breakfast just because, in Chinese medicine, like, the stomach channel, time, is in that morning, and that's kind of always when historically theysay that's a great time to eat,[00:25:00]and I feel like, yeah, this huge intermittent fasting kind of craze can be good to an extent and when utilized properly, but I'm always going to go back to, like, what have we been doing for 2, 000 years that has been working really well? Allison: Like, I think there's a lot of parts to Chinese medicine where yeah, a lot of the health trends and health fads are just not going to resonate, and that's kind of,like, always my good reminder of like, okay, well, let's go back to what nature and what has been working for humans for, you know, thousands of years. Allison: Right. Michelle: think about like the light cause like light light hygiene, cause you want to call it, you want, you want to get exposure to light early in the morning so that your body knows. Cause that's how our bodies respond. Our bodies really respond to light. So I always kind of, I always prescribe this, like go early in the morning, get some sunlight while it's safe early, early. Michelle: And then of course, obviously protect your skin if you're skin sensitive and especially later on, but like early in the morning, it's easier. For your body to process.[00:26:00]I almost kind of compare this in my mind as like a hose of water. So you want water. When it's trickling, it's much easier to drink. Michelle: And then like in the middle of the day, when it's like shooting out, you're, you're going to choke. It's too much. So it's better to have it early in the morning. We're able to really get the vitamins. And I remember my grandmother always telling me early morning sun will give you the most vitamins. Michelle: That's how she explained it. The most nutrients. And she was right. She was right. She said that. She's like early morning sun. That's what you want. And so, and not only that, it also anchors the circadian rhythm and then also getting moonlight. So like not having the fake light, dimming the light at night, and that could really, so that's why I would say like light hygiene is to kind of dim it at night so that we go back to our roots. Michelle: And this is just, it's what nature has intended for us. Allison: Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. All of that. I mean, it's always a good reminder to go back to[00:27:00]nature of, like, the super basics. When it's dark, like, it should be dark. It should be quiet. It should be in. It should be asleep. And then, yeah, during the daytime, that's when things are active, including our digestive system. Allison: Like, it seems, yeah, nature was designed for it to be pretty clear to us,like, what we're supposed to be doing. Michelle: Yeah. For sure. And what are your thoughts about taking melatonin supplements? Allison: think it can be helpful. I mean, I am not a huge and high dose melatonin. So I'm more of like the one to three milligrams because that's kind of akin to what is naturally produced in the body. There are a lot of there's some research that shows that a high dose can be good for endometriosis, like even up to 10 milligrams because of its antioxidant effect. Allison: But I, I've, I've only had it be helpful for a small group of patients, like not a lot. So it's not my favorite one to go to because I just, I don't think that it's going to be hugely beneficial for the circadian rhythm. But I do find it[00:28:00]helpful for some patients and I love it as like a general antioxidant. Allison: If your levels are kind of low because you know, we're not, we have so much light in the night time and stuff. So our bodies are naturally kind of, I bet a bit melatonin deficient. If it's, if you're taking a decent dosage of like one to three milligrams and it's really helping you sleep and you're noticing a huge difference, awesome. Allison: But I also see a lot of patients where it doesn't do a lot for them or it makes them feel groggy. And so I think it's a really case by case dependent. Like if it works for you and you're on a good dosage, awesome. If it's not, like I'm not too hard pressed, like there's a lot of other alternatives. I like, I love a lot of adaptogens and stuff. Allison: too, that can kind of help reset their circadian rhythm too. So, yeah, it's not my absolute favorite go to but there is like some really good research with it for fertility and egg quality because of its antioxidant effect. So I don't hate it. Michelle: Yeah. Well, the great thing is, is that getting that early morning sunlight induces cellular melatonin. So it actually brings that out of you, so it is a great way to get that, Allison: that is true. Michelle: natural light,[00:29:00]but also through light therapy. So light therapy can help that as well. Michelle: So is there anything else that you're like passionate about, excited about that you're like learning about recently that you're finding is really helpful for your patients? Allison: Besides the cortisol awakening response, which I've been really nerding out about and just like cortisol in general, I find it's such an underrated hormone and people are either like, Oh, we want to squash it or we want to raise it. But that's like so much more complex and intricate than that. So I've been really kind of diving into that and like some more Dutch test stuff. Allison: I find, I am always just learning, I love learning so much about estrogen metabolism and methylation because I find that a lot of patients who are struggling with reproductive health stuff and fertility and especially endo and stuff a lot of them are, we're just not metabolizing and methylating estrogen correctly. Allison: And so it's, that's causing a lot of symptoms. And so I've been really kind of doing a lot of research into that, which I've been finding so interesting. So yeah, I feel like that's kind[00:30:00]of, yeah, liver, cortisol, all that kind of Michelle: stuff, liver stuff again. So what, what have you. Allison: Always back to the liver. Michelle: Yes. What have you seen is effective for estrogen metabolism. Allison: yeah, well, it depends, like, at which phase people are having the issues. If it's, like the metabolizing into the 4 2 OH, or if it's, like, the actual methylationprocess, because there's different, you know, supplements and herbs that all, I'll recommend. So that's why I really love testing. So we can really like see exactly where the issue is, or if it's in phase three estrogen metabolism, where we really need to focus on the gut health again because there's too much beta glucuronidase,that's recirculating estrogen levels and stuff. Allison: And so there's different things that we can do for that. But yeah, I just love like, The basic things that your liver needs is like magnesium, B vitamins enough protein, enough iron. Like there's some really basic stuff that I think, if a lot of if we're just really focusing on through like healthy nutrition and stuff, then alot of that stuff can be helped. Allison: [00:31:00]So we don't, honestly, we don't even need like, crazy amounts of supplements and herbs if there's these issues going on. Sometimes your body just needs like a really basic levels of magnesium and B vitamins and hydration and amino acids and stuff and then all these things can kind of work efficiently. Michelle:Yeah. Sometimes I find just warm water and lemon on an empty stomach every day because lemon is like the sour taste for the liver. Just something like that. It's such a simple, it's so simple. It's almost too simple that people think it's like, how could this work? It's too simple, Allison: Yeah. Michelle: amazing that I find. Allison: Yeah, that's kind of how I feel about like castor oil packs, too. Michelle: Yeah. Oh, yeah. So talk about those because that that's actually really effective I find and moving like the lymph and moving that stagnation. Allison: Absolutely. Yeah, I'm a huge fan of castor oil packs, especially like after my patients have endosurgery where they have laparoscopic abdominal surgery to remove the endo lesions. I love using[00:32:00]castor oil packs post operatively to help like reduce scar tissue formation and to really help with the healing process and the blood circulation and lymphatic movement and everything. Allison: So castor oil packs are basically you apply castor oil to the abdomen or liver and then you place a heat pack on it and you kind of just relax with the heat. To as the oil kind of seeps into your skin and does all the magic that it needs to. And it is such like a simple intervention just like warm lemon water in the morning that I find is just such an easy thing to do. Allison: It's really cost effective, it's really relaxing. Like it doesn't take a lot of effort. You can do it like while you're watching tv. Like it's a really easy thing to kind of incorporate into, into your life. But I do find it really, really helpful for like reducing period cramps, helping people to recover post abdominal surgery for liver detoxification. Allison: Like done regularly, it can, you know, have a lot of really positive impact. Michelle: for sure And what are your thoughts on when to do it on the menstrual cycle because I do hear like conflicting perspectives on when[00:33:00]you should do it and then you can also move it at certain times to the liver rather than the abdomen. Allison: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, so I'll never recommend it during menstruation, or like at least during your heavy days because I do think it can cause a little bit too much blood circulation and that just might increase the bleeding. And then I'll never recommend it after ovulation if you're trying to conceive. Allison: So if there's any chance of pregnancy, we kind of just want to like take care of that like precious area. We don't want to do anything to moving or detoxing. Like that's even like a point in the menstrual cycle where I won't do too many abdominal points. Like I kind of just like let your body do what it needs todo. Allison:Like it knows how to do it. I'll do a lot more distal stuff to kind of help with blood circulation and hormone balance and whatever we're working on. But yeah, anytime that there's any chance of pregnancy, I like to leave the lower belly alone. Michelle: No, it's true. I, I do the same thing. Actually. I do like right after ovulation. I tell them not to do it and they're like, and it pretty much[00:34:00]minimizes the window to like, after period, you know, in between that point, but I, usually like to be a little more conservative on that as well, unless you're trying to prepare your body ahead of time. Allison: I'm definitely on the cautious side. Michelle:Yeah, me too. You might as well. Yeah, totally. So this is great. Great conversation. I'm sure we can keep talking about all kinds of topics and questions.And so if people want to work with you, so you do Dutch testing, you do sometesting and you do some online work. Allison: Yeah, so I'm CFG healing on all the social medias and my website. I'm seeing patients in person in Vancouver and Burnaby, British Columbia, and I do see a small amount of patients virtually. So if you're elsewhere and want to work with me, we can do some telehealth. Michelle: Fantastic. Well, Alison, it was awesome speaking to you. And thank you so much for your insight and information. And guys, I[00:35:00]definitely recommend you check out her Instagram because it's like loads of information. You're going to learn so much. I'm learning so much because I love really collaborating and talking to other practitioners because you can always learn something new. Michelle: That's what I find. You just can always learn something because everybody has a different perspective. Allison: Yeah, that's so true, and I'm an avid regular listener to your podcast, and I could say the same. I always learn so much from you and all the people that you interview, so thank you for doing what you do. Michelle: Oh, that's awesome. Well, I admire you. So that's really nice to hear that coming from you. So thank you so much, Alison, for coming on today. Allison:Thanks, Michelle.            

Michelle's first birth began with an induction via an artificial rupture of membranes at 42 weeks per the recommendation of her midwives. Looking back, Michelle realizes that many factors contributed to what may have been a preventable Cesarean. Right after the first trimester of her second pregnancy and at the height of COVID, Michelle's husband deployed. Knowing he wouldn't be home for her birth, Michelle did everything in her power to fight for the redemptive VBAC she deserved. We are in awe of Michelle's strength, resilience, and all of her impressive victories along the way!PLUS…as a certified professional midwife, educator, and a monitrice/labor/bereavement doula with a wealth of knowledge and experience, our guest cohost, Katrina, shares her top five tips on how to have your most empowering birth experience. Additional linksReal Food for Pregnancy by Lily NicholsKatrina's WebsiteKatrina's InstagramHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Welcome, everybody. You are listening to The VBAC Link Podcast. This is your host, Meagan and we have a cohost today. This actually is someone I know personally too. She is one of our VBAC doulas and she's even a midwife now. This is Katrina. Katrina: Hello. Meagan: Thank you so much for being with us today. Katrina: Thanks for having me. Meagan: It's so fun to have you. She used to live here in Utah and then she moved far away. Not really that far, but you feel so far now. Katrina: Yes, yes. I know, I miss everybody.Meagan: But you are doing amazing things where you are at. You are in California, right?Katrina: I am, yes, here on the central coast, so San Luis Obispo county. Meagan: Perfect. Do you want to tell everyone what you are up to these days? Katrina: Sure, yeah. A lot is going on for me. I am a licensed midwife– a certified professional midwife. I'm an educator. I do placenta encapsulation. I'm a labor and bereavement doula. I have a small and intimate practice here on the central coast in Templeton, California where I offer midwifery services, clinical sneak peek, gender draw, monitrice and doula services, encapsulation, and well-woman care. Meagan: Holy smokes. Katrina: A little bit of everything, but I love it all. Meagan: I don't know if you have enough fingers and toes for all of the things you are dipped into, but that is incredible. Holy cow. Katrina: Thank you. Meagan: We're going to make sure everybody if you're in her area, we're going to make sure to have all of her information so you can find her here in the show notes. So don't hesitate to check those out and go find her. She's incredible, you guys. Katrina: Thank you. Meagan: No, thank you. I'm going to turn the time over to you to read a review and then we are going to jump into the incredible story that we have today. Review of the WeekKatrina: Yes, so I have a review to read today that was sent in by Elizabeth Herrera. She says, “Wishing I had Apple Podcasts right now to leave a review. I hope this does the trick. Thank you so much for creating this whole community. After my emergency Cesarean in 2019, I looked up everything possible about being able to VBAC. This led me to your wonderful podcast and blog. I devoured everything. I owe much of my knowledge to you all and to my doula. I'm happy to say that I had my VBAC on March 31st and it was a magical experience. Thank you all so much for all of the materials you have provided which helped me succeed. I hope one day to share my story on your podcast. Many, many thanks.”Meagan: Oh, I love that. We want to keep reminding you guys, we are always taking submissions for podcast recording and I am going to be recording– we are kind of backed up, so if you want to share your story on the podcast or if you want to share your story on social media which we are also doing, please email us or go to our website, thevbaclink.com/share and you can submit your story. Because we don't have as many podcasts as we do posts on social media, feel free to post your information there and we are happy to post your story and share. Every single day, people are searching our Instagram looking for stories to read because they want to hear them. They want to read. They want all of them. I'm sure if you are preparing, you know what I'm talking about. You want it all. You want to digest it all. So if you want to read or share, head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. Michelle's Story Meagan: Okay. Michelle from Iowa. So excited for you to share your story. As I was reading through a little bit about your summary of everything, one of the things that stood out to me and connected was the feeling of not wanting to be recovering from a Cesarean with a second child, with a little one already around. Even though you have lots of support around, not wanting to have to recover and do that alone because your husband was deployed.My husband wasn't deployed, but he didn't have a lot of time off and had to go right back to work so I was like, “Oh my gosh. I don't if I'm going to recover.” I did have to recover with that because I did have a repeat Cesarean, but I was like, “Oh, I understand that want so badly to not have to have that second Cesarean to recover and raise two kiddos without that support, right?”Michelle: Yes, yes. Meagan: I connected with that so much. But okay. And I also connected with your baby turning breech a couple of times. That's so stressful. Michelle: Yes, I was so scared. Meagan: Oh my gosh. With my VBAC, my little guy kept flipping. I'm like, “No. I am not going to have a repeat Cesarean because this guy cannot keep his head down.” Okay. We would love to turn the time over to you and share your story. Michelle: Yes. Jumping in with my first pregnancy, I thought it was a pretty healthy pregnancy. It seemed pretty normal and everything. I didn't have any gestational diabetes. I did end up with quite a bit of fluid retention starting pretty early on, but my blood pressure is always really low, so my midwives weren't really worried about it at all. I had hospital-based midwives for that birth. Looking back, my diet was not good at all. I remember I would read about if you have a craving, just have a little bit of it even if it's something that's not super healthy. So I'd have a tiny little bowl of ice cream, then I'm like, “Well, that's not enough. I have to have a giant bowl of ice cream too.” Meagan: Uh-huh. That's the thing is that sometimes those little tastes can be eating the whole gallon of ice cream.Michelle: Yes, and then when I stopped working at 39 weeks, I didn't feel like cooking myself lunch, so I would just have a microwaved s'more for lunch. Just in general, I was not very good, but I thought I felt okay for being pregnant. Like I said, I didn't have any gestational diabetes, but I was measuring a little bit big around 33 weeks, so they ended up wanting to do a growth scan. That came back just fine. He was in the 50th percentile, around that area, except for his head. His head was in the 98th percentile. I do have big heads in my family, so I wasn't too worried about that. My midwives, most of them, weren't too worried about that, but there was one that kept bringing it up when I would see her. She'd be like, “Oh. Maybe he's having a hard time–” we didn't know it was a “he.” “Maybe the baby's having a hard time engaging because he has a big head, whereas some of the others were more encouraging. It was like, “Maybe he had a growth spurt in his head and the rest of his body will catch up later.” But this one midwife just kept mentioning that. That same midwife, I also noticed, where some of the others would spend several minutes feeling around my belly to make sure they knew what position he was in, I had one check where she felt for his head, “Oh, his head's down,” so she just listed him as OA and didn't check anything else. Yeah. I didn't think too much of it at the time. I got along with her personally and everything. We're going along and I'm trying to do everything naturally, so I just kept waiting to go into labor and it didn't happen. We get to 42 weeks and I'm not ready to wait anymore. I'm comfortable waiting anymore. My midwives are not comfortable waiting anymore, so I went in for an induction. Because I wanted to do everything naturally, what they suggested and what I agreed to was to have them break my water to have my body go into labor on its own. The midwife that was on that day was this midwife who kept doubting that I would be able to. She never said, “I don't think you'll be able to push out the baby with a big head,” but she kept mentioning his big head even when I went in for the induction. So I had them break my water. I think I was probably, I want to say 2-3 centimeters before they broke it and I think I must have been 4 centimeters because she must have stretched me to 4 centimeters because she said, “You're now in active labor,” which didn't make sense to me. Meagan: Yeah. Michelle: I was having some contractions that morning, but I didn't think that I was in active labor.Meagan: Nothing substantial to be in active labor. Michelle: Yeah. But yeah, she must have thought, “Oh. You're in 4 centimeters so you're in active labor.” Anyway, so I was walking the halls and I was in the tub. Things were going okay. I eventually ended up with the epidural and everything and Pitocin. I kept dilating. Everything was going fine. But 12 hours later– and I had multiple, multiple cervical checks. I get to about 12 hours later. I'm basically fully dilated. I'm 9.5 centimeters and I've got an interior lip. She keeps telling me, “He hasn't descended at all.” And then she did say, “He descended a little bit, but it's just the molding of the head. He's not actually descending.” His heart started getting a little bit elevated, so they started worrying about an infection. I was a little bit confused about it at the time, but I wasn't able to think too much of it because my epidural had fallen out. So I'd had all of this build up into transition and everything plus Pitocin without being able to feel it, and now I'm feeling everything. So I wasn't able to think too much of it, but they just took me back for a C-section. We agreed to it, but we didn't ask any questions. My question that to this day I have not had answered is, “Why didn't they have me at least try to push? I was basically dilated.” But in my head at the time, I was just like, “Well, she must just know that he is stuck, so he needs to come out.” Like I said, she didn't really believe in me. I guess she just didn't think he was going to come out. Plus, it was probably 10:30 at that point, so I don't know what time shift ends, but I just felt like she didn't really try. She wasn't in the room that much. She didn't really give me that many suggestions, just was there and gone. Meagan: Kind of left you feeling hanging. Michelle: Mhmm, and unsupported. Yes, yes. So they took me back for the C-section and everything went pretty well. I had a pretty good recovery, but even from the day after my C-section, I was planning for a VBAC.So at my 6-week follow-up appointment, a different midwife from the same practice looked at my chart and she was like, “Yeah you can probably have a VBAC no problem with a smaller baby, just 7-8 pounds.” she looked at my chart and say I gained 55 pounds with my pregnancy and she was like, “Next pregnancy, just eat popcorn and salad and you'll grow a smaller baby and be just fine.” Meagan: Oh! Oh. Well…Michelle: Yeah. So I started looking around after that trying to find out what my other options were for the next baby. At about 7 months postpartum, I was able to find a home birth midwife who said she would be able to see me for a VBAC. She would do nutritional counseling because she was like, “Yeah, that swelling was probably because you didn't have enough protein in your diet.” I'm like, “Yeah, that probably makes sense.” So she said that she would see me for a VBAC whenever that would happen. She would do nutritional counseling and be able to do a home birth at least out of the hospital because I did live kind of far away from a hospital. I wasn't necessarily comfortable doing an actual home birth.Also, about 1-2 months, somewhere in there, after our son was born, we did find out that my husband was going to be deployed. He's with the National Guard, so we didn't know when it was going to happen. We knew it was going to happen, but thankfully, we had quite a bit of warning. I know some people in the regular Army are living far away from family and deployments can happen at a moment's notice. Thankfully, that was not the case for us. Since he's National Guard, we were able to live where we live. We were able to live close to family. Meagan: Yeah. Michelle: So I'm very thankful for that. And again, we knew that the deployment was going to be coming. We had lots of notice instead of not very much notice. But that did make it very difficult because we didn't know exactly when it was going to be. We wanted to try to plan for another baby and that made it difficult to do because we didn't know how to time it. Obviously, things don't always work according to plan anyway. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Michelle: But we ended up getting pregnant when my son was 19 months old. Basically how it ended up working out was I was right at the end of my first trimester when my husband left. I was thankful he was there for at least the first trimester. That helped so much. Meagan: Absolutely. Michelle: And that was the beginning of COVID, so he was actually home quite a bit. He took a few extra weeks off of his job to quarantine and stuff, but also just to be home which was so nice. But when I got pregnant, I started looking around for out-of-hospital options because that's what I really wanted this whole time. No one in my area wanted to see me for a VBAC because I hadn't had any vaginal births before. I didn't have a proven pelvis. Even the home birth midwife who had said she would see me for a VBAC wanted me to have a vaginal birth in the hospital before seeing me for a VBAC later. But she did agree to see me for nutritional counseling and to be my doula in the hospital with this particular midwife practice. Meagan: Great. Michelle: Yeah, that seemed agreeable to me. I had come to the point where I believed in my body's ability to birth a big baby, but at the same time, I was ready to commit to a much healthier diet in order to be able to hopefully grow a smaller baby so that I wouldn't have to fight with any providers about it to have them not try to use scare tactics or anything. I read the book Real Food for Pregnancy by Lily Nichols. Such a good book. Meagan: I love that book, yes. Michelle: I felt so much better through my whole pregnancy even in the first trimester just focusing on eating protein with every snack, trying to go for more complex carbs, keep my blood sugar helped so much with morning sickness and I just felt so much better. Meagan: Good, that's awesome. Katrina: No, I was just going to say that nutrition– we don't really often put too much time or thought into it but it can make such a difference in terms of how we feel, how we carry our babies, and even just our mental capacity and caseload when we're well-nourished. Meagan: Mhmm. Michelle: Yes. Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say that it's crazy how just switching it up ever so slightly can truly impact, like you said, the way you felt and then even outcomes as well. And recovery. Katrina: Absolutely and kudos to that midwife who stepped up and helped you with that nutritional component because I do feel like oftentimes, that's one of the pieces and elements that is left out of prenatal care.  Michelle: Yes. Katrina: We talk about, “Are you exercising?” We weigh you. We say, “Oh, you're gaining too much or not enough,” but that piece of, “Okay, well what are you eating? What are you taking in? Is it processed foods? What are you eating?” I think sometimes, is just really overlooked even though it can have such a monumental impact on you, your body, and your baby. Michelle: Yes. And like I said, after my first, they would be like– the only nutritional guidance I got was, “Oh, you can eat popcorn and salad.” That's just not really helpful. Meagan: No. Katrina: No, it's not. Meagan: Not necessarily the tips that you had been wanting with you. Michelle: Yeah, so then the midwife practice that I was seeing close to where I lived– like I said, another hospital-based midwife practice. Again, I felt like I could get along with the midwives personally, but just every now and again, some less-helpful pieces were sprinkled in. For instance, I mentioned that one of the reasons I really wanted a VBAC was because we wanted to have a big family and I didn't want the size of my family determined by the way I give birth. So she was just like, “Yeah, I understand that, but you know, you might get to four kids and not really want anymore anyway.” I'm like, “Okay, but that's still not how I want my family size to be determined.”Katrina: Right. Michelle: I just felt like there was a lack of trust from the beginning. I just felt like I wasn't able to make my own choices. They used a VBAC calculator to determine whether I was even eligible to be in their practice. They had a 41-week deadline where I had to have the baby or be induced. I was like, “I went to 42 weeks last time and I'm okay with doing that again. I'm all set to do that again.” But if I didn't agree to be induced by 41 weeks, I would risk out of their care and I'd have to be seen by the OBs who are not as VBAC friendly. I also felt like I didn't have any choices with the glucose test. I asked about alternatives and they didn't allow any of that. I asked about if I was to agree to be induced, how would I be induced? Their preferred method of induction was the artificial rupture of membranes which I was absolutely deadset against. I feel like that's the number one reason I ended up with a C-section with my son because I felt like–Meagan: Mmm, too early? Because then with the decels and all of that? Michelle: Yeah, the infection risk as well as my feeling that since it was so early and he was kind of high beforehand, I just felt like it had him settle in a bad position and he couldn't get out of it. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Totally. Michelle: So I was deadset against artificial rupture of membranes, especially artificial rupture of membranes as the induction method. And then they would do Pitocin after that. But they wouldn't do a Foley bulb or anything because apparently somehow, they said that it increases rupture risk. I was like, “That doesn't sound right to me.” Even when I went in for my anatomy scan, because it was COVID like I said, and I had heard so many other people be like, “Yeah, I was able to do a video call with my husband because he wasn't able to be in the room for the anatomy scan.” I thought I would be able to do the same. They were absolutely like, “No way. You can't have any sort of video recording device.”I had a total breakdown at that point. I was like, “This is one of the very, very few parts of my pregnancy that my husband can be a part of because he's gone. He's never going to be able to feel her kick because she was too small before he left and she is going to be born by the time he gets back. He can't feel her kick inside me. There's no other part that he can be a part of.” Finally, they at least let me have him on an audio call. Meagan: Oh my gosh. I'm just over here shaking my head. Katrina: I know. Well, and how disempowering for them to pull everything away from you like that. Especially during COVID. Michelle: Yes. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. And unfortunately, we know you're not the only one that had similar situations like this. I was so frustrated and I'm still frustrated just listening to you. Oh, I'm sorry. Michelle: So yeah. Again, just a lot of things where I just felt like I didn't have choices and didn't have a lot of trust. Finally, my breaking point was when I got to my glucose test. I felt great afterward. I was just like, “I'm so excited to get my results. I feel good that I passed. I want to get my results and get on with my life and not worry about it anymore.” I waited for the call with my results and I didn't get one. It just kept not coming and finally, I don't remember if it was a day later. It was far after I was supposed to get my results. I finally got a call and they were like, “Our lab lost your sample. We weren't able to test it.” Katrina: Oh no. Michelle: I had to go back in and do a second one-hour glucose test and I felt horrible afterward. I had such a bad headache, heartburn, and stomachache. You name it. I got my results back and it was pretty high. I was like, “I don't even trust that this is actually my result because they lost my sample last time.” That's when I realized that I just didn't trust this practice. I know it's a good practice. I even heard a story on this podcast from someone who went to the same practice and had a great experience. It's a good practice. It just, in my situation, I didn't feel like I had the choices that I wanted. Meagan: Yeah. Well, just when you hear, “Oh, this VBAC-supportive provider was super amazing,” that's great for them, but it may not be the right supportive provider for you. Katrina: Right. Meagan: It's the same thing with location and everything like that. Even though there are some people who have had amazing experiences, that doesn't mean that it's the right place or you are feeling the support that someone else may have felt. Michelle: Yeah. So at that point when I finally realized that I don't trust this practice, I called the midwife who was going to be my doula and she was like, “Yeah, I've been kind of holding onto this, but if you feel like you don't trust them, maybe you should just go to Iowa City.” I had been thinking that too, so I was like, “Yeah. I think it's time.” So I switched to Iowa City, but because she is a home birth midwife as well, she wasn't able to make the trip with me because she had her own clients for home birth. So I had to find a new doula. I switched practices around 29 weeks, so then I was 31, 32, 33 weeks looking for a doula and all of the doulas in my area were booked. I finally found one and even though I was traveling to Iowa City which is about a 2-hour drive for me, I wanted to choose one from my own area just in case something happened. I was due in December so if there was a snowstorm or if I was having a really fast labor and I couldn't make it all the way, I still wanted to have my doula with me. I chose one from my own area. I was finally able to find one, and then now that I was traveling for two hours, I'm like, “There's no way that I'm going to take a 3-hour glucose test because that's now a 7-hour ordeal trying to drive two hours while starving and then three hours there, then two hours back while having a glucose hangover.” I just decided that I was going to test my glucose every day. I thought at first that they were going to let me do it just for a week, but then they said that since my one-hour test was already elevated, they wanted me to do it for the rest of my pregnancy. I'm like, “You know what? That is still worth it.” I started doing the 4-hour round trip every two weeks and then every week. It was a lot, but it was totally worth the peace of mind just knowing that if for whatever reason I do end up with a C-section, it's going to be because I actually needed it and not because I was scared into it, because they didn't have enough patience or anything like that. And plus, I was able to listen to The VBAC Link podcast on the way. That was my companion for the drive there. I started doing all of the things for prep– eating the dates, drinking the tea, doing the walks, and going to the chiropractor. Apparently, I created too much space for my baby because then at 37 weeks, I found out that my baby was breech.  That particular day, my midwife made it a little bit scarier like, “Oh, you can try the ECV. These are the things that you can do, but if your baby's breech, then you're going to have to have a C-section.” That was a stressful day and a long drive home. That same day, I found out that I had been exposed to COVID. I ended up testing positive for that. I didn't end up having any symptoms beyond regular pregnancy symptoms. My nose was already stuffy every day. I was tired because I was 37-38 weeks pregnant trying to chase around a 2-year-old by myself, but everyone thought I was going to die. It was just like, “I'm fine. Just leave me alone.” But within the next couple of days, I was doing the Miles Circuit every night. One night I fell asleep doing it and when I woke up, everything was different. All of her movements were different. I was like, “All right. She's head down again. We can keep going along.”We were able to confirm at my next appointment that she was, in fact, head down. I finished my quarantine. I was able to start going back to the chiropractor. I got to 40 weeks and my little gymnast keeps doing flips and she was breech again. Meagan: Oh, so stressful. Katrina: Yes. Michelle: Yes, but a little bit less stressful this time just because my midwife was so much calmer about it. She was like, “If baby is still flipping around at this point, she can do it again.” That helped so much just having her calm presence with the whole thing. We went ahead and scheduled the ECV just in case. She was like, “Well, if we have the ECV and it's successful, we will just go ahead and induce you because you are already 40 weeks, and that way she doesn't have a chance to come out of your pelvis and flip again.”I was able to flip her again with the Miles Circuit. At that point, I started belly binding because I think I had a pendulous belly probably, looking back. I just think that my uterus was a little tipped forward so she couldn't settle in my pelvis and had all of that room to be free-floating and flipping around. So then we get to 40 weeks and 6 days. I started feeling some contractions. It was 12:30 in the afternoon. I was like, “This feels a little bit different.” I hadn't had any Braxton Hicks contractions that would be a little bit uncomfortable. Mostly, it was just tightening like, “Hmm. This one actually is a little bit uncomfortable.” But it didn't really feel like too much yet so I just went about my day. I was scared to lie down because I didn't want it to stop. I didn't want to rest. My mom came in that evening because I was supposed to have an appointment the next morning, but the contractions kept going. Toward the evening, I finally started contacting my doula, the hospital, and then my sister-in-law who was going to drive me to the hospital. I tried doing some resting. I took a bath and then I was able to put my son to bed as an only child for the last time. I was glad that I was able to do that. Just one last moment of normalcy. Yeah, so we made the 2-hour drive. We made it to the hospital at about midnight. I was about 4 centimeters. They were able to confirm on the ultrasound that she was head down still. I did make a point to wear my own gown for laboring because I didn't want to get into that patient mentality. One thing I did not do that I wish I would have is I did not wear my belly binder, so I think she was still kind of floating around a little bit. I got to my room. They were able to have me on the wireless monitor so I could keep moving around. My belly was so round that they had a hard time keeping it on her. This whole time, I still didn't really even feel like I was fully in labor. I was able to have a conversation and I definitely wouldn't have gone yet if I didn't have a 2-hour drive. My doula kept encouraging me to rest which I did not want to do. I wanted to be up and moving during the contractions. I felt like if I was on the bed and a contraction hit, then I couldn't get up to move and it just made it so much worse. Probably at 5:30-6:00 in the morning, she fell off the monitor which I didn't think too much of. The nurse came in to adjust it. She's moving it all around and she finally finds the heartbeat way up high on my abdomen which is where they had always found her heartbeat when she was breech. Meagan: I was going to say, I bet your heart was thinking, “Breech!”Michelle: Yeah, I was in total panic. I was like, yeah. I was panicking. I couldn't stay calm during contractions. I couldn't relax during contractions anymore. I was just in total panic. My doula and my nurse and everything kept trying to keep me calm. I was just like, “Just let me panic for a minute. This is scary. I don't want to be calm right now.” Meagan: Yeah. That's a valid feeling. It's okay to get it out and process it versus having to hold it in and deal with it until later. Just let it be for a second. Michelle: Yeah. It was around 7:00 a.m. when they made it in. The ultrasound confirmed that she was still head down. My thought now was probably that she was descending into my pelvis and where they were able to find it changed. She was still head down, so we were good to go. At that point, I still couldn't calm down. I was still in that panic mode. I wasn't able to cope anymore. So I was like, “As long as she comes out vaginally, I don't care. I wanted to go all-natural, but now I don't care. Just give me the epidural. Get her out.” My doula was like, “Yeah, you can have the epidural if you want, but let's try the shower first.” The shower was awesome. Instant relief. Immediately, I was like, “I can think clearly again. I can relax during contractions.” But then almost immediately after that, I started wanting to push. I told my doula, I was like, “I feel like I'm going to push her out really fast.” My doula was like, “Well, you still will need to probably pace yourself. The first time pushing, it's probably going to be a while.”I got out of the shower. She encouraged me to labor down on the toilet. That's when I started actively, involuntarily pushing. My water broke almost right away and it was kind of funny because I immediately hopped off of the toilet. I thought I had accidentally pushed out my baby in the toilet, but it was just my water breaking.” Meagan: It's crazy how sometimes, that water right? Michelle: Yeah. Meagan: We never know how it's going to happen or what it's going to feel like, Michelle: Yeah, and again, it hadn't happened naturally for my first either. I wasn't ready for it even though I had been in labor for 19 hours. I just wasn't ready for it. But yeah. They got me off the toilet. They could see, obviously, that I was pushing so they were like, “We'd better go check and see if you're complete.” They tried to get me back to the bed and someone told me that they wanted me on my back for a cervical check. I wanted to go on the bed and go on my hands and knees, but I was told that I had to get on my back. I made it on the bed. I made it on my side and I was like, “I'm not moving anymore. I'm done. I'm not moving anywhere.” So then I was complete. They were letting me push. I was like, “Well, that's good because there is no way I'm going to be able to stop even if you tell me that I can't.”Katrina: Yeah, once your body takes over control, that's it. Michelle: Yeah. I felt really good having my legs closed trying to push, but they had me keep opening my legs. In retrospect, I can't help but wonder if they would have let me have my knees together and my feel apart if that would have felt better for me, but that's not what happened. The funny thing is what I remember most is what I could hear throughout this whole thing. When they were trying to open my legs for me or getting things ready and I didn't like it, I just remember saying, “No, no, no.” I just remember thinking even at that moment, I just feel like I sounded like my son. I feel like I sounded like my two-year-old, but that was all I could say at the time. And then I just remember the sound of myself grunting while I was pushing. I remember the sound of everyone in the room really loudly saying, “Yes, yes, yes! Push!” They weren't coaching, but really loudly encouraging. Behind all of that, what I really remember and what really stands out to me is that I was able to have my husband on FaceTime and his voice being the calm voice, just the calm, steady encouragement. That was so helpful. Yeah, that's what I remember most, and being on my side. What I did really like about it was being able to completely and totally relax my whole body in between contractions. If I had been on my hands and knees, I would still have to hold myself up. But being on my side was total rest during contractions which was really nice. Meagan: Really lovely, I'm sure. Michelle: Yeah. So then she was born at 8:14 a.m., so I had been in the hospital for 8 hours. She was born OP. I only pushed for 11 minutes. Meagan: Whew!Katrina: Wow, that's amazing. Michelle: Yeah. My first thought is, “Yeah, I probably could have–” She was a lot smaller than my son, but if he was in a good position and she was OP. If I could push her out in 11 minutes, I probably could have pushed him out if he had been in a good position. To everyone who doubted me, I'm pretty sure I could have done that. But I was able to announce the gender because we didn't know beforehand, so I got to do that. I got to cut the cord which was great and very special. I did end up having a third degree tear and definitely some sacral bruising which makes sense because she came out really fast and she was OP. She was just over 2.5 pounds smaller than her brother. It kind of makes sense where she got all of that extra room to be flipping around. But even with some of the bigger injuries of the third-degree tear, I still felt like what most people describe as a second-degree tear, so I had a pretty easy recovery. It was still easier than a C-section even though I had an easy recovery from my C-section. I will say that I did also have a little bit of a lack of immediate connection just being completely unmedicated and not quite expecting her to come that fast. My first thought when they pulled her out and put her on me was, “Where did this baby come from? This is not my baby.” But of course, it was because no one else brought a baby in from another room. This is my baby that I just pushed out. Meagan: Just magically appeared right here. “I did do something before this.” That's so cute. Michelle: But yeah, she was the first vaginal birth out of all the grandkids on both sides of the family. They've all been born by C-sections for various reasons. Meagan: Oh, really? Michelle: Yeah.Meagan: Interesting. Michelle: My parents have six kids. The first two were born vaginally, but then they had some pretty adverse birth injuries, so they had her have C-sections for the last four of us, so on my side of the family, she is the first baby born vaginally in 40 years. Katrina: Whoa. Michelle: So that was pretty cool being able to break the traditions and set my own standards and goalposts. Meagan: Yeah. Katrina: Yeah. Meagan: That's fun, so what did everybody think when you were like, “Hey, I want to go for this VBAC” in your family?Michelle: Well, my mom definitely understood but didn't understand. I mean, for the most part, my family was pretty supportive. My husband was very supportive. His mom has eight kids. They were all natural. The last one was a home birth, so they are all on board with all-natural. So yeah. They were supportive for the most part. Like I said, my mom understood but didn't understand. She didn't understand not wanting to be induced.Meagan: Didn't fully understand. Michelle: Yeah, she didn't understand me wanting to make my own decisions rather than just following whatever the provider says. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense. Well, congratulations. Michelle: Thank you. Katrina: Yeah. Michelle: It's been a little while now. She'll be two in December and it's great too because I never was able to decide where to start on writing down a birth story or anything, so it's nice being able to fully get it out all in order and everything. Meagan: Mhmm, I love it. Awesome. Well, Ms. Katrina has a little bit of our end-of-topic. You know how at the end of episodes, we like to share an extra topic? I'm so excited to hear what she is going to bring to you. Katrina's 5 TipsKatrina: Yes, yeah. I have a few tips that I'd like to share and then I have a little bit of a piece of home birth after Cesarean that I wanted to share that I attended. The beliefs that you hold in the abilities of your mind and your body are hugely influential in preparing for your birth. The following are some tips that I've put together to support an empowering birth experience. The first is to cultivate your physical, mental, and spiritual strength, stamina, and endurance. The second is to love yourself. Be mindful of your nutrition and your hydration. Manage your stress. Make yourself a priority when it comes to self-care in both emotional and physical elements and prioritize your rest and sleep. Number three: build the best birth team you can and one that will support you in all components of your pregnancy, labor, birth, and postpartum periods including emotional, mental, and physical support. Don't forget that this birth team works for you and you can replace team members at any point if they no longer align with your values and your goals. Number four: arm your toolbelt with knowledge. Practice physical positioning and utilization of your comfort tools. And lastly, number five: move, move, move. Your mind, body, and baby need movement and motion throughout your pregnancy, labor, birth, and beyond. In closing, I just wanted to share that I trust birth fully. I believe in personal autonomy, informed decision-making and consent, and birth options for all birthing people. I wanted to share– like I said earlier, I had the honor and privilege of attending a beautiful home birth after a Cesarean just over a year ago. This family was amazingly strong and determined. They birthed their baby in the comfort of their home at 42 weeks on the dot and had a beautiful baby boy who was 11 pounds and 15 ounces. Meagan: Whew! I love it. That just gave me chills because it's like, yes. This is possible. This is possible. Katrina: It is. It's possible. Women and birthing people are amazing and incredible. I truly believe following your intuition and seeking the support that you feel that you need and desire is just monumental in terms of the entire birth experience. Meagan: It goes back to even proven pelvis and all of that, right? Why, why, why do we have to prove ourselves? Why do we have to do that? Because I feel like, when someone says, “I can't do this because you have to prove to me,” and then if we don't “prove” in the way that they see it, then we feel like we failed. This failure word, this word fail comes up way too often and I don't like it. I don't like it. Katrina: Right, and ultimately, everyone should have the opportunity to have a trial of labor. There's no reason to not let people do that. Meagan: Absolutely. I agree. Absolutely. I love it. Thank you both for being with me today. So happy that you were both with me. Katrina: Thank you and congratulations, Michelle. I love your story. Michelle: Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me on. It's an honor to be able to finally share my story. It's great to be on after listening throughout my pregnancy and everything. Meagan: Yes, yes. I love it. Well, thank you both for your time, and again, congratulations, Michelle. Katrina, I'm blown away by all of the amazing things that you are doing. You always have been amazing, but it's like you just keep adding to this amazing resume. I'm so happy for you. Katrina: Thank you. Thank you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this week's episode, we chat with Michelle Race, Senior Technical SEO at DeepCrawl about all things XML sitemaps. Where to find Michelle: Twitter: https://twitter.com/shellyweb --- Episode Sponsor This season has been sponsored by NOVOS. NOVOS, the eCommerce SEO agency, has won multiple awards for their SEO campaigns including Best Global SEO Agency of The Year 2 years running. Trusted by over 150 global eCommerce brands including the likes of Bloom & Wild, Patch and Thread, NOVOS provides tech eCommerce SEO expertise with a creative edge. They have been named as one of 2021's best workplaces in the UK and with a diverse, gender-balanced team are a culture-first agency. The great news is that you can join them! They're hiring senior digital PR and SEO strategists. Visit http://thisisnovos.com/ (thisisnovos.com) or follow on Linkedin @thisisnovos Where to find Novos: Website - https://thisisnovos.com/ LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/thisisnovos Twitter - https://twitter.com/thisisnovos Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thisisnovos/ --- Episode Transcript Areej: Hey everyone, welcome to a new episode of the Women in Tech SEO podcast, I'm Areej AbuAli. I am the founder of Women in Tech SEO. So, today's episode is one that I'm excited about. It's all about XML Sitemaps. And joining me today is the brilliant Michelle Race. She's a Senior Technical SEO at DeepCrawl.  Hey, Michelle! Michelle: Hello. How are you? Areej: I'm good. How are you doing? Michelle: I'm good, thank you. Areej: I was so excited when I saw that pitch come through because as geeky as it sounds, I love XML site maps. I love everything about them. So, I love the fact that you pitched that across. Thank you for that. Michelle: No worries, I feel like they are often a bit forgotten about. So, I wanted to try and change that. Areej: Yeah. So, can we get started by knowing a little bit more about you, how you got into the world of SEO? Michelle: Yeah, sure. So, after uni I worked at a few agencies as a front-end web developer, just building website templates. My last agency then decided to stop building websites and my boss at the time said "Oh, why don't you look into technical SEO?" as they didn't currently have an expert. It was a bit daunting at first, but knowing things that HTML helped a lot with understanding the basic tags. And then over the years, I taught myself with lots of help from Google Help forums and documentation, and I was Head of technical SEO there for quite a long time. But then in November last year, I joined DeepCrawl as a Senior Technical SEO and I work in a team of amazing technical SEOs and it's so fun. I love it. Areej: Yeah, you work with such awesome people, like some of the best women I know in tech SEO work there so I can imagine how amazing it is to be working alongside them. Michelle: Yeah, I feel very lucky. Areej: How did you find the whole, like, agency versus not agency life? Michelle: Yeah, it was a big change and at DeepCrawl I get to work with large enterprise clients and there's a lot of differences. So, it's really good. Areej: Yeah, I love that. I used to be agency side for a little bit over five years before I moved in-house, and I prefer in-house, and I can imagine how exciting it is in DeepCrawl getting to work with all kinds of clients as well. Michelle: Yes, definitely Areej: Awesome. And then like for women who are just starting in the industry, because with our audience base, we have women from all walks of life. Any advice you would give them? Michelle: So, I found it a lot easier to understand technical SEO knowing things like HTML and how a page should be structured. So, I'd recommend trying to learn the basics of things like HTML and also set up a website, if you can, because it's really good for testing and then obviously join communities like Women in Tech SEO. And also, Twitter is a great resource to follow experts and ask

Learn More About The Content Discussed...No Boss Talk:https://nobosstalk.comMichelle Cunningham Website:https://MichelleCunninghamOnline.comMichelle’s Instagram:@directsalesmichelleThe Camp Elevate Facebook Group:hereBeth’s Instagram:@bethholdengravesBeth’s website:https://www.bethholdengraves.comProfit HER Way Course:https://www.bethholdengraves.com/profitKeynotes discussed:She's earned a six figure income consistently and led a network marketing team to over eight figures in sales, hosting home parties and Facebook parties. (01:31)I'm tired of saying I'm shy. Yes, you're shy, but don't say that to yourself. Like shy is just another word for insecure.(07:21)Then all of a sudden introvert Michelle who went from being shy to being bold is like we've got a system and it's working. So how did that look?(10:52)All I learned is change your story, make it super inspirational and then at the end give them two options.(13:14)I want to talk about owning your awesome, and that when someone owns their story, and someone has confidence, and it takes time.(16:10)When Did It Air...January 06, 2020Episode Transcript...Beth:Welcome to ‘You’re Not the Boss of Me’. If you are determined to break glass ceilings and build it your way, this show is for you. I’m your host Beth Graves and I am obsessed with helping you to not just dream it, but make the plan, connect the dots and create what you crave. Are you ready? Let’s get started.Hello. Hello and welcome to episode number 19. And Happy New Year, If you're listening to this in real time. So today I am so excited because I have been stalking Michelle Cunningham. She is my guest and you are going to love her Own Your Awesome. And you will walk away, literally fired up like pulling your car over to the side of the road and getting started taking action after this podcast. So let me tell you a little bit about Michelle and then we'll bring her on. She teaches network marketers around the world to successfully build their business through Facebook parties, home parties, and using the power of video. So after you see this wonder woman on YouTube, you are going to see the power and the impact. She's called the queen of video branding for direct sellers and teaches you to Own Your Awesome to have a massive impact for success. She's been involved in the industry for 16 years. She's earned a six figure income consistently and led a network marketing team to over eight figures in sales, hosting home parties and Facebook parties. So she's playful. She's on YouTube. She's so much fun. She's made an impact with thousands and thousands and thousands of network marketers. And so here she is. Let's talk to Michelle Cunningham.So, Hey everyone. I am so excited because I have been stalking. She's my new best friend. She doesn't know it yet. I sent her like a half a heart necklace. Her name is Michelle Cunningham and I literally have been watching her for months and months and months, obsessing over her content, her energy, her YouTube channel. And so, you know, I asked for everything so I thought, I'm just going to ask Michelle, she's super famous if she would hop on this podcast to help us hear more about how she's built her business in direct sales and thousands of others with her quirky, honest, but deliberate presence on YouTube and on social media, and just being an awesome pink princess. So hello Michelle!Michelle:Hi. That was quite the introduction.Beth:Well you didn't know like I always like to admit that I'm stalking someone because it's just weird if you don't, right?Michelle:Yeah, well I stalk people too so I totally get it.Beth:I know I just, I study, I love to study success and so I know that we have some people that may not have been introduced to you yet and now they are. And I'm super excited because after meeting you and talking with you, and we're going to give you guys this offer at the end, is I'm going to do the YouTube thing this year, and I have like seriously dark videos that are sharing my sticky note challenge and you've inspired me. So can you give us a little bit of history? I know that for those of you that, you know I said it on the intro, but give us the real version. How did you get started? When did you start realizing that the video presence was really a thing to build the business? So give us the scoop. Who are you? What do you do? Yeah, all that jazz.MichelleAll right, well I'll give you the quick background because I feel like a background is really important. I grew up incredibly poor. My mom was a single mom so I came from very little. I had two brothers and myself and everything I've ever had for in life I've had to pay for on my own. And so I grew up always wanting to be like the kids who just had like Pantene shampoo and fresh apples. So just to put it in perspective, like where I live now and what my life is like is not what I grew up as. And so I'm very thankful for life, the journey. But I'm also, it's what drove me. It was realizing like, I don't want to have a moldy basement and like snakes in my basement and have a house, I'm embarrassed by. I want to have more and so...I went to college, paid my way through college, and then entered direct sales into my life. I got my first job as a pharmaceutical sales rep and then I landed at an event, and it was a direct sales event. My coworker's wife invited me and I'm there in this hotel room, the holiday Inn, and there's a lady in the room claiming to make six figures. Another one's a millionaire, another one's driving a free car. And I'm like, dude, this is either a fantastic opportunity or this is a scam. So I went home and I told my mom at 23 years old, and she goes, Oh yeah, honey, a hundred percent scam. Do not get involved. I was not doing it. And then a week later I remembered that I was 23 and at 23 you don't listen to your mom. So I signed up anyway. And that was 16 years ago, 17 years ago.And so when I joined, there was no text message. There was no Facebook. And so they said, how you're going to build your business, honey, 23 year old, you're going to go up to strangers in parking lots, and like, Oh, that's horrifying. People doing that. Like I'm an introvert, I don't like to bother you. I don't like to be in people's way. It's just who I am. I want everyone to like me. That's just my personality, right? So the idea of approaching a stranger and having them yell at me was like my worst nightmare. And so I, for the next six years, did not tell anyone. I was involved in network marketing like for six years. But in that six years I studied it. I looked up ideas, I ordered my full inventory, I was ready to go, but I did nothing for six years. I think I held like a party or two.Beth:Wait, wait, wait, wait. I gotta repeat that. You guys six years of studying. And so many people are like, Oh, I just, I mean I was that person, Michelle, that I bought every kit, signed up for a billion things and didn't study, didn't do a thing until, you know, when I launched the current business that I'm in. But I didn't know it was six years. What made you keep holding on?Michelle:Yeah, it's just a fantastic part of the story. And it always, when I'm sharing in front of an audience, they're like, you gave me hope. Because I've been, you know, 5 years, I haven't started. I'm like, Oh you're fine, you're actually ahead of me. So for six years I loved the dream of it, but I was too shy and too nervous to approach people, you know? And I was like, but I loved it. But I was like, but I can't. And so it was self talk, this negative self talk that I had, that I don't want to bother people. I don't want to, you know. And, in that six years I tried, it's not like I did nothing. It's like I'd study an idea and then I call my recruiter. I'm like, maybe let's do your mall thing. You said we could do a scavenger hunt.Then we'd go do the mall thing. And so we'd go up to people and I actually met a lady who said, Oh my gosh, your sell for that company? I would love to host a party with you. And I'm like, really? Okay. But I got home and I was too nervous to call her. Talk about, this is not going to work. And I called her the day before the party to confirm because I was nervous. But she was like, I never heard from you. What would make you think I am going to host a party with you? And I was like, you're right. Okay, bye. So little like mouse Michelle. One day I made a decision at 29 I was fed up enough with my corporate job and I think that's when you see someone make a big change where I was like, you know what, I'm tired of being a mouse.I'm tired of saying I'm shy. Yes, you're shy, but don't say that to yourself. Like shy is just another word for insecure. There's all of these things. I was telling myself they were not serving me and I thought, you know what? What makes me different from that girl over there that's wildly confident? She just acts confident. Why don't I just start doing that? Why don't I just like stop caring and let's just like do this? Because I just made that very conscious decision. And it was January, 2009 yeah, 2009, and I went online and I found someone that worked for the company that I had signed up with. She was not my recruiter, but they have a we'll help you no matter what thing. So she, when I met her, what was amazing about this lady is, she changed my life forever because when I met her, she's 4ft 11in, tiny. She wears short, spiky hair. She doesn't wear a ton of makeup. She's not loud. She's not bold. She's not crazy. She suffers from social anxiety disorder. She fainted at her first home party.Yes, And over three weeks. Yeah. You're like, that doesn't sound like a good mentor. But see, she earned over $3 million in her career and was driving the top level car. And I was like, Oh, okay, so you're a little broken. I'm a little broken. If you can do this, maybe I could do this. And so it was in meeting her, then I met someone that wasn't perfect. Sometimes you meet people in this industry and they're perfect and they talk perfect and they smile and perfect and you're like, that's scary and weird. So she was normal. And so she taught me her system. She said, if you don't want to call people then just text people, you know, just do whatever it's going to work for you. Just find a way. And I was like, wait, I can do that. And so I actually started texting people, in that first month I made $1,000 not knowing what I was doing.Six months later, I made over $5,000, built a team of 50. A few months after that I had earned a car. That month I earned another free insurance, and then earned another car a few months later. And then four years later I learned a system that taught me how to recruit like crazy. And I taught that to my team and we went from a hundred people on my team to over a thousand and it changed my life forever. We became an eight figure sales team. My team did over eight figures in sales and just crazy, crazy. But it's just crazy to think that for that long I struggled, but it was just one day to saying, you know what? I'm fed up enough. We're just going to like make this work. Yeah. So that was the beginning.Beth:Well, and okay, a couple of things that I love is, you notice that she wasn't perfect and I think that that just like made my face light up. Even though we're on a podcast, you can't see it, because that's what I think that vulnerability of you on video is. You're the real deal in showing up and saying, we may not be perfect. And I say that all the time, is like I built my business with sticky notes because I couldn't figure out how to use the Excel spreadsheet, and I've got like, my drunk uncle was driving me around when I was trying to use systems. And you also said find what works for you but have some way that you are booking, like in your case, booking the parties, booking the shows, booking the online events. So you said something to that. I know everyone was like yeah, pulling over to the side of the road, getting out their notes on their phone. You said you developed a system that worked for your team. Do you want to talk a little bit about that? Because that's a Renegade. You are in a company that had been around forever, like the beginning of time. Everyone knew that person that had earned that car in town and then all of a sudden introvert Michelle who went from being shy to being bold is like we've got a system and it's working. So how did that look? Can you share a little bit of what that time looked like? And what you guys all did?Michelle:Absolutely. So that fourth year I had been sitting at a team of about a hundred. I was pretty consistently making about $5,000 a month and I heard a speaker that year that said, or at an event. And the one thing that I took away, she said, Hey guys, I believe that while you're on this earth you should make as much money as humanly possible. And I was like, wait, where's she gonna go with this? I don't know if that, you know, the the poor girl in me. It was like, I don't want to, I don't know if I want to hear this...because I believe that you should live completely debt free. And I was like, okay, I can get on board with that. And then I also believe you should have tons of savings for your future. I said okay, I like that you said. And I then believe you should live below your means.I do. I like to shop at target and resale shop. And you should give back frequently, generously, and anonymously. And that last line of frequently, generously and anonymously, I said to myself, Michelle, you need to step up your game. You could be helping so many more people right now. You have enough to provide for you and your family. How many more humans could you help if you decide to step up your game because the fact that you got to where you are, what if we did that same amount of crazy work like over and over and over again. And I thought, Hmm, I need it. I need to find something. And it was like a God thing. I was on Facebook that night and this cute little blonde appeared on my screen and it was a Facebook ad and she was just pretty, I just clicked on her and I said, let me see what she's all about, cute little blonde thing. And it was Sarah Robbins from Rodan and Fields, the number one seller for Rodan and Fields, and she's making like $1 million a month. I mean, it's just like something, or million dollars. I don't, it's something so insane that you're like, okay, let me learn from you a little human. So I clicked on that.Beth:I love, Love you to learn from you little human. I love it.Michelle:Yes literally, because she was just a little thumbnail is what I mean. She was a little person on my screen. I clicked on the little human and I ordered her book, which is How to Rock Your Network Marketing Business.Beth:That was my first book! I bought too! Oh my gosh, this is crazy. Yeah, that's it. It's tattered and it's highlighted and every, yes, yes, yes. Okay, keep going. I love it.Michelle:So I read the book and all I learned, you don't have to go read the book, I'll just tell you what it is. All I learned is change your story, make it super inspirational and then at the end give them two options. You can join my team today, if you decide not to do that, you can take home products. Those were two things I was missing. I was missing the inspirational story. I had a ho hum story. It was kind of inspirational but not really. So I changed my story to be like, I was the number one person in all of my company. I Owned My Awesome. So I made it like I was in a play with this amazing story and I'm glad to share it if you wanna hear how I roll it out. But yeah, that story. And then at the end I said option one, join my team.Oh, and that's the best deal of all. And then if you decide not to do that, you can take home products. And I usually was just selling product, product, product. And then after I would invite them to meet for coffee after they liked the product. This whole long three week process, which sort of was effective, but I was like, wait, if I could sign people up on the spot. And so I rolled this out for the first time in March, 2000 and gosh, I don't remember what year. But it was, I don't know, six years ago. And I roll this out and my first appointment, I had a lady over to my house, tried the product, I did my arrogance story at the beginning and it was, it was like arrogant, but I was doing what I was reading in the book and I had practiced it all day. And at the end she goes, okay. And I give her options. She goes, okay, so here's what I've decided. I'd like to join your team and I'd like to buy the whole skin care system.And I was like, ah, what the heck just happened? I'm like, that's not definitely supposed to happen. I'm like, you do want it? Yeah. And in my head I'm like, just Michelle, write it up, sign her up, sell her the thing, just do it. So I do. And she goes home inspired, which is what was different. She went home inspired and she told her husband about this inspirational woman that lived a few towns over that was on fire. It was, you know, changing your life. And the next day she called, my husband wants me to get the whole package. He wants me to get started now, because he was inspired. I had never had someone do that before. And it was in that moment that I believe like God was knocking on my head like Michelle, do more of that be loud, because by you being loud and you being proud, you can impact people's lives, you can change their financial situation.And so I had to stop being introverted Michelle and say, okay, I need to be awesome because by me being awesome, I can impact lives. And so the next lady came over that day with her husband and at the end her husband goes, yeah, you should just sign up. And so she joined my team that month. Following that system, I recruited 22 reps personally and my team followed the same system and they recruited another 20. So in one month we brought in 42 new reps to my team, of like a hundred, that's sitting at a hundred for four years. And I was like, that was awesome. Let's do that again. And so we did, we did it again, did it again. And that year I earned the top level car. We had five people become the top 1% of the company. I mean everything changed, right? I went to London that year. I mean just everything, massive movement because of a tiny little shift Owning Our Awesome lead with the opportunity to default to the products. It was such a simple idea. Yet it made such an impact.Beth:I was like, I have chills because so many times that I want to talk about Owning Your Awesome. And that when someone owns their story, and someone has confidence, and it takes time. Those of you that are listening today and you're thinking, but I haven't had the success yet. I don't have that voice that Michelle has or that Beth has. You can be that person, and there's visualization, and seeing yourself on that stage, and there's creating that story that allows you to Own Your Awesome. So I think you might be able to walk us through, if someone wants to walk away from this podcast and Own They're Awesome, and they're being coached by you. what would you tell them?Michelle:I would say to them, and I said this in my group the other day. I said, guys, what is the most you've ever sold at one party or in one day? What is the dollar amount? One girl wrote $1600 and another girl wrote $300 another girl wrote $800, and I said, do you have any idea that the average person out there, that an extra $200 a month would dramatically change their financial situation? Like do you have any idea? And the fact that you can host the party or you can be in front of humans and then two hours of your time you can make $200? That is mind blowing to most humans. That is literally mind blowing. And so if you have a story like that, like in the chat when I shared this, girls were like, Oh yeah, I made $800 in two hours. I'm like, you should be at the every appointment. Yeah, like hanging from the roof, swinging on a Tarzan rope saying, guys, I'm a big deal!I made $800 dollars, I made $400 in two hours. Whatever it is, that is such a huge story. And so putting that dollar amount into your story can make such a huge impact and can really inspire someone. So I always tell people, throw a dollar amount in there. What did you do in a two hour time span or in a day time span, one week I made this money, whatever it is, put your marketing hat on. And you know, as women, we're taught to not be arrogant, but I would say, no, no, this is Owning Your Awesome, and this is going to change lives. So put that away, the arrogance part of it and just Own Your Awesome and share those stories.Beth:And I just had this vision, because I've talked Michelle into being at real life camp. We're going to have a Tarzan rope and we are going to do an Own Your Awesome activity. We're swinging from the rope. I mean I think we should have one in our offices. I love it. Okay. So we're at this point of your business, you're teaching women to own their stories, to lead with the business, to really be real about what's happening in the direct selling network marketing industry. And that was what I needed to know for me to finally say yes and go all in what was possible and why not me? So you've got this team and you're rolling and a lot of what you were doing because of your business was a party plan business. And then you transitioned to a lot of online coaching, training and parties.Can you talk about that transition for those people that might not have the opportunity? And I always, I want to preface this, you guys, you always have the opportunity to be in a person's living room. And I know that we see a lot of things that say, build online. Never leave your house, never talk to your neighbor. But I will always tell you to earn multiple seven figures. I was willing, I wanted to be connecting with that neighbor because I know that in person and online sharing what Michelle just shared, swinging from the Tarzan rope, changing lives is in person. It's online, it's everywhere. If you are passionate, right Michelle?Michelle:It's 100%, and I built so much in my business in person, you know, then I did transition. I did a lot online. I had a lot of success online. But I, most of my clients, all that reorder from, it's all mostly in person. Yes I do get people that find me on YouTube and stuff like that. But it started, and I yes, I 100% agree with you in person. So great. And it's so good for introverts like me to be in front of people because if I'm not in front of people, I find for me it's like a muscle, I can get just quiet and not really want to be around people. And so for me, I kind of force myself to be in front of people to learn human interaction. Because I just sometimes, I just want to be home. I just want to do my thing. So getting out and challenging yourself will make you a more confident person. That's what I found and it brought me success.Beth:Well and I say to people, if I told you that your income would double, triple, that you would impact your family's life, be able to impact the lives of others because you were willing to go to that event, to go and meet with that one person. I remember early in my career, we had had a tough summer and I was tired and I was supposed to get on an airplane and go to Vegas and there was a team growing there and I made it. I think that was when I saw a rising leader, I would get on an airplane and go and meet that person in person, meet their friends, help with the event. It was an investment I was willing to make and I almost canceled this event. I thought, Ugh, I don't really want to fly that. And then my husband said, they are responsible for the money that you're making, your personal actions are, but this team is waiting for you.And I have to say, Michelle, I heard a story at that event from one of the promoters on my team and I journaled about it. And it was how the product had helped her overcome grief. And she shared with me how much she wanted to tell me that in person. And I literally said, I will never miss the opportunity to be in front of people. And it has been what drives me. So let's fast forward, because we're now quite a few years later and now you're this YouTube sensation. You've got this following that is like crazy cult like. You needed to get your systems into the hands of many. You are called to do that. So how did it go from your team to worldwide people just finding you and saying, Michelle, give me what you've got. How did you make that transition and how does your business look today?Michelle:So, it's such a great question because it wasn't ever my intention. I believe that God had a hand in this. Like there's no other good explanation and you know, depending on what your beliefs are, the universe whatever. But literally, six years ago, as an introvert, I said I'm going to start a YouTube channel. Why? Because at that time I was a little bored with my business. So you know how you have a month where you're like, I just feel bored. What can I do in my spare time? I was bored. My son was like three, so I wasn't exhausted and I think it was pregnant, like I'm going to start a little YouTube channel. Or maybe it was right before I started to get pregnant with the next one. And so I have a little, you know, I had downtime, and I don't like downtime.I don't like to watch movies. I get bored, I like to work. And so I'll start a YouTube channel, I'll just make a video. And initially I was like, I don't know what I'll make it about. Maybe I'll make it about organizing. And they made a few videos. That channel still exists. It has 900 followers. I made eight videos about organizing. It's the stupidest videos ever because I don't like organizing, not like I have a very organized office, but my house, you know it's not. So it was funny though, I was making that channel and it stressed me out cause I had to clean before I filmed, and then I was like this isn't my jam. And then one day I was like, but I really like to talk about network marketing and direct sales. Why don't I just do that?Until I started to put out what I was doing. I was just sharing my tips and I could not believe it, but people were like messaging me at 3:00 AM in the morning, and my inbox saying, Michelle, your video just totally changed my life. It changed my business. I love you forever. Oh my gosh, you're so amazing. Do you have more stuff? And I was like, I'll make more videos, I'll make some more. And I just literally for six years, I just kept putting out new videos. I tried to aim for once a week putting out a video, and that was my goal, and I didn't always hit it. I mean, you know, it was sometimes two weeks or three weeks, but I just tried to put out content. Okay. I did not think anything else beyond that. Never thought it would ever turn into else. Well, crazy.But I got a call from a company, they said, Hey Michelle, we found you on YouTube. Can you come and train our sales force or a brand new startup network marketing company? I was like, Whoa, that's awesome. And I was like, sure. And they're like, how much is your fee? I said to my husband, how much? He's like, just say something outrageous. I'm like, well, I wouldn't go there for, I'll say $2,500.00. He's like, yeah, just say that. I said that. And they said, sure. And I was like, Oh, my word, this is awesome. Right? So, say that, go and speak to the company. And a few weeks before I go, they said, Michelle, do you have any training materials? We'd like to purchase your training materials? And I was like, purchase, like I just do free training.What's this purchase stuff? Okay, yeah, I'll make a CD. So I literally went into my son's bedroom. I don't know why, that's where I recorded it. I just remember it must have been quiet in there. But I recorded my first training. It was how to generate leads and then I recorded another one, how to host a home party, how to recruit like crazy, all my secrets on three CDs and I had some artwork made and I got a thousand of them printed. And those have gone on to sell. I think 7,000 of the lead generation have been sold, you know, just crazy numbers. But it all started with that little thing and I was like, Oh, I could sell something. That's interesting. And so then, this January I decided to start running Facebook ads. I was like, maybe these could help more people.So I started to run Facebook ads and then we started to sell like a really lot of them and I was like, well maybe I could make a course. So this new business of mine just kind of started this year where it was like half CDs, but maybe I'll do some courses. So you know, I host Facebook live parties. My first one I ever hosted, we recruited 20 people in 45 minutes and we sold over $20,000 as a team. And everyone was asking me how I did that. I said, I'll make a little course about it called Mastering the LIVES. I made this course and put it out there. And I realized at that moment that when that course launched, I realized that God had said to me, Michelle, your calls are your next level, like I know that I gave you the success in network marketing but now you are called to something bigger.And I like pushed back for 10 months. I did. I said, you know what? No, I'm just, I'll just keep doing both. And I was doing both and trying to manage team and then building courses and, and it was a lot, but I just was like, no, I would go into the top of network marketing. That's what I'm doing. And he's like, but you don't understand. I've given you like literally seven times the income than this other thing. What are you doing? And so I had to honor that and say, you know what? I think you're right. I think I love training people. I love making videos. I love changing lives. I just want to do that. And I have literally like, that's all I want to do. And I made the very difficult decision to leave a team of a thousand reps, eight figures, sales team.Like, I mean, people are like, have you lost your mind? I'm like, well no. I mean it sounds silly that you would leave something this big, but I grew something that was infinitely bigger that required less of my energy. That 100% filled my cup. Yeah. And brought me 100% joy. And I live a life now that I'm like, this is my dream. I'm with my kids all the time. I make videos, I change lives and I absolutely love it and I never thought any of that would happen. But I will tell you, I have, I talked about this with Beth and she'll reveal, but I've got something coming out that reveals how I use video, and not knowing, I just did it to be nice. But that video changed my life forever, and my financial situation forever. And I now am so passionate about showing other people the power of video. You just put out free content, you help people and you accidentally make a following. It was all an accident, but it was a pretty awesome accident that happened to me and I want to show people how to accidentally do what I've done because it's awesome.Beth: I love it. And so when I look back at give back frequently, generously, and anonymously, you are not, you know, God's knocking on your head saying, look, we need to impact more people so that we can make this, not just you giving back in big ways, but teaching others to give back in big ways. The other thing I love Michelle is, you went to the top, you learned to lead, you learned what the frustration was of your people. So that, as a mentor and a coach, like you waited to coach until you had basically done it all and said, okay, I'm called to do more to impact more. And you did show up in my feed on a Facebook ad and I saw the pink office of yours. And I was like, who is this? Who is this? She's so darn cute. Who is this little person? I need to learn from her! Who is this little human? And there's so many ways that our lives run parallel. And so I'm really, really excited. Two, I'm diving in to your video launch course. We're going to put in the show notes, and what is it called again? What's the specific name of it?Michelle:It's called video creator classroom. Yes. And there's also a Facebook group.Beth:So I'm all in because one of the things entrepreneurial add that I have is, Oh, I'll start a YouTube channel. Oh, I'll do this. Oh, I'll do that. So I'm saying it here, because then people will hold me to it. That my commitment is to go all in with podcast content and YouTube content. So I'm all in, I can't wait to get started on the content and I'm following directions. I'm not doing it my way. I'm going to learn from the best. And I hope those of you listening, I can understand that free content. I have people even with my YouTube channel that will grow this year, but I made a tiny little video before we even knew how to turn our phones or have ring lights. And that one video has so many views. And I've recruited many people who have reached out to me to say, Hey, could I join your team? And I was like, what? Like out of the blue, right? You get these messages. So imagine that content that we find. So it's free, right? It's free to be on YouTube.Michelle:It's free. I had a girl, and I forgot to share this, she found me online and joined my team and added over 700 people to my downline. 700 people. And so yeah, those were the things as it was making the channel, I was like, wait, this is awesome. So you know that was happening. I was like, I can't believe this is happening. So the blessings that came from the videos, I mean there's no way my team would have grown to the size it did without her and without a few hundred people in it found me online.Beth:So this power of YouTube brings you high quality leads. and the lesson I'm taking away is do it before you feel ready. Going into your son's room, making that CD back in the CD days and saying yes before you had a perfect presentation. And then that shift that was like, you know what, I need to impact more people and I need to get out of my comfort zone and build a life for my family and for the legacy. I love those pieces. So we're going to close with one question and those of you that want to join us in this course, it is going to be Epic. I'm telling you. And we're going to give you a link below that you can get in because it's pretty new, right Michelle? This is like the first group, brand new.Michelle:Yep. So we had our pilot group go through it, and it is so great. It's just fantastic and people are just loving it and life changing things happening. So exciting. So, so yes, now the pilot groups run through it. It's ready to launch. So it's gonna launch in the next few weeks here. We're just getting all the emails ready and everything. But yeah, it's going to be fantastic.Beth:I love it. And where else? Tell them how to find you on YouTube. Find you on Instagram, Facebook, all the good things. Where do we find you? And then I have one big question to close with, so don't get nervous.Michelle:Okay, got it. So @directsalesmichelle is me on YouTube and on Instagram. And MichelleCunningham.com is my website. I just got my full name. I was so excited.Beth:That's really exciting. Did you wait a long time for your name or did you have to negotiate it? Okay.Michelle:Someone owned it. There was a girl that was a stripper that owned it to be totally honest, and I know, and then I called Wix a few weeks ago and they're like, ma'am, your name is available. I'm like, no, a stripper owns it. He goes, no, no, it's available. And I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, yeah, I have it for $600 or $700. I'm like, well, I kind of want that. I'm like, you think I can get a deal? And anyway, the stripper didn't give me a deal, but yeah, it doesn't matter. I got my name now.Beth:So a stripper owned your YouTube chat, I mean your website.Michelle:Yeah. Oh yeah. So I own Michelle Cunningham online, and then now I have Michelle Cunningham, but I haven't transferred everything over. But Michelle Cunningham redirects you to Michelle Cunningham online.Beth:I love it. I love it. Okay, here is your question. For people listening today that are ready, that need to take an action there where you were during those years of sitting around thinking, yeah, one day, maybe I'll do it. Still doing what they're not loving that they're doing. What are three things that after they finish their workout because we're in their ears or we're in the car. Three things that you can tell them to do today that will lead them to do that success that you are speaking of. Getting to the top of the company, doing all the things, having the freedom?Michelle:So three things. Number one, I would set a schedule, my life dramatically changed and I said, you know what, I'm going to hold appointments Friday at 6:00PM, 8:00PM and Saturday at 10, 12 and 2. I set a schedule and that was it. Those are the little windows that I worked, but that made such a huge impact. I got so much done in the Friday, Saturday that I worked my business. I booked appointments all during the week, but I knew on Friday and Saturday that's when I got dressed, got out of the house, did my thing. So that's number one. Set a schedule and make it. I used to do Tuesday afternoon, Friday mornings, Sunday, Thursday. And my family is like, are you going to be home today? Like no one knew anything. So when they finally knew every Friday, mommy's busy, every Saturday, mommy's busy.There was so much harmony that brought to our family. Number two, I would say positive affirmations all day long. I think as women we just are always overthinking things. So I think fill your cup with things that motivate you. I like to watch crazy people online. Gary Van Der Chuck, he swears a lot, but I do like his message. And so finding people online that have a powerful message. The Tony Robbins of the world, the Sarah Robbins, the really motivational people out there. Follow those people and absorb what they say. And my last tip would be run your own race. Run your own race. Don't look left or right. I think that when you think about what other people are doing and you're worried about what they're doing, it doesn't matter. They're on their own train track. You're on your own train track and your train track is moving. Your train is moving on your track at the rate it's supposed to move and you can make it move faster.But it doesn't matter what people do to the left or right of you. And that includes the people on your team. One person cannot dictate your success. Other people's trains have taken a break and they're having a snack somewhere. That's just fine. You keep your train moving. And so I always stayed in a very happy state because I personally worked my business and I didn't look left or right. I'm so disconnected to the world like, you know what's going on in the world. I don't watch the news, I don't watch other people and I just do my thing because I'm out here just Owning My Awesome. And I recommend the same for you because you can't really think when you don't know anything. It's great.Beth:Okay, the name of this podcast episode will be, Own Your Awesome with Michelle Cunningham. I have notes covering my desk. Michelle. This connection is so amazing because I know that, I already decided we're friends forever. Okay?Michelle:Done. When am I getting my necklace? I want to get the hat. It's actually really funny. That would actually be really fun. I totally feel the same connection to you. So like I want you to know, it's not like you're the weird friend that just likes me. I feel the same way. I also, I'm feeling like, my new best friend. I totally love her. So we're still on the same page and you're such a rock star, and you're so amazing in all that you do. And I just commend you and I am really, I've got to learn about podcasting from you because I want to start one and I've been dragging my feet a little, so it'll be good.Beth:I'll teach you podcasting. It's been such a great connection and so I want to challenge you guys to...I'm just, I'm going to go over, set a schedule positive affirmations and run your own race and just get started. Michelle is a perfect example. Before she was ready, before she had a plan, before she had the perfect pink office. But you guys are gonna be so jealous of the pink office and just do it. Get yourself started and ready and put out the free content and Own Your Awesome. Thank you Michelle. And we'll catch you guys all next week on You're Not the Boss of Me.Oh my goodness. How awesome. How awesome was Michelle today you guys? So let me just ask you to do this for me. Let's get some Instagram love today. So please screenshot this and tag us both @bethholdengrades and @directsalesmichelle and let us know that you loved this episode today. Also, there is still time. This is so exciting that ProfitHER Way is launching this month. We have so much to do and preparing your profit plan, helping you to make money your way. So go ahead and go over to bethholdengraves.com/profit if you are ready to be a part of a powerful mastermind and getting your plan in place for 2020. And as always, I'll see you over at Camp Elevate.Thanks so much for hanging with me today on the podcast and remember, you can create what you crave. If you're looking for a supportive sisterhood, I would love to see you over in our free Facebook group. As most of you know, I love camp. It's part of, 'You're Not the Boss of Me' because when we're building this thing, we're doing this thing. We need a supportive sisterhood and I also crave more fun and more connection. Join us at camp over in the Facebook world, thecampelevategroup.com or just click on the link above and we will see you around our campfire and help you to create what you crave.

James: Hey, audience. Welcome to Achieve Wealth podcast. Achieve Wealth podcast focuses on value add real estate investing. I'm James Kandasamy. Today I have an accomplished couple, Jack and Michelle Bosch. And Jack and Michelle Bosch have done more than 4000 land flips across the nation. Land flips is something very interesting to me. And, you know, it's an asset class, or an asset class, which I think is very interesting. And you can learn how we make money out of it. They've done a lot of single-family houses. And they also have done apartments; 330 units apartments. And, you know, they are continuing to look for more and apartments as well, but I think they are the masters of land flip. Hey Jack and Michelle, welcome to the show. Michelle: Thank you so much for having us, James we're excited to be here. Jack: Thank you for having us, James. James: Tell me, did I miss out anything in your credentials or you know, did I -- Jack: No, other than we're both immigrants, we both came from other countries. So we started here with, just like you, just came over from another country and so we have that in common. But now we flip now 4000 pieces of land. We teach it now; so we have seminars on that. But then for asset allocation, basically the money we make for land flips and whichever way rental properties now, we rolled that into more and more two apartments now. Michelle: Yes. James: Got it. Michelle: To produce what we call one-time cash with the land flips like you work for a once and you get paid once. We're also able to produce some cash flow because we are also able to sell those properties using seller financing, you know. James: Got it. Michelle: And so you do get some mailbox money, but those notes usually come to an end once the property is paid off. And so, we're always in the back of our minds is okay, let's roll cash profits and cash flow into what we call forever cash, which would be a partner. James: Got it. Before we go into the detail of land flipping, I want to understand your background because I know all of us are immigrants So can you tell me when did you guys move to the country? And how did you move? Were you already successful on the day that you land in this country? Michelle: Oh no. Jack: Of course, we're like, we're a billionaire. James: Did you find gold outside the boat? Jack: No. So, Michelle… Michelle: Yes, for me I came from Honduras here in 1995 to study. I came to a tiny little town like about three hours South-West of Chicago called McComb, Illinois, that's where I met this man in the middle of the cornfields. It's basically university town, you know, and nothing else to do.I came here for a business degree, my undergrad, and I was in my senior year there, my third and last year when I met Jack. We shared some upper finance courses together because he was here for an MBA, 10 months. He met me and then he couldn't leave anymore. James: Got stuck, you got stuck in the US. Jack: She's right. She summarized it. I came in 1997, Michelle was in her last year in undergrad. I did come in for a Masters to that same university that had an exchange program with the university I used to go to Germany. And I was kind of like be able to kind of accomplish three goals in one year. Number one; I was able to get an MBA in the United States because it was an accredited school and I was studying business Germany. Already had enough credits and I just needed these 10 months, was enough to give me the American MBA. They give me, I tested out and all of these other things. Number two, I was able to get credit for the missing classes in Germany. So with that, I didn't have to go back to Germany to do more classes. I completed my degree in Germany, those same classes gave me the MBA. Also helped me complete my degree in Germany and improve my English. And the fourth and most important thing, I met this one. Michelle: But to answer your question as to whether we came here successful, absolutely not. I came in with two suitcases to my name, Jack pretty much the same. You know, I was raised by a single mom and my father passed away when we were very, you know when I was very young. And it was, you know, she was sending me here to study with a lot of sacrifices. I had to take several courses, you know, take seven courses per semester, like advanced as much as possible, because I couldn't afford to be in the US for more than two and a half, three years, you know what I mean? And eating soup towards the end of the semester when you run out of money. And, but I didn't have, I did have in the back of my mind the thought that real estate has been incredibly good for my family. You know, before my father passed, he had made an amazing decision. And it was to buy a piece of commercial property that to this day spits out cash, you know, for my mother. And so -- Jack: And that piece of property brought her to college here in the -- Michelle: Got me through college. Jack: And still sustains her mom over there. Yes, in my case and my dad's, again the same thing my mom, not the same thing but similar. My dad is a high school teacher, retired now. My mom's a stay at home mom. So no, I came here with student debt. I came here with enough money to pay for one semester, I didn't have, really didn't have a clue, how I would even pay for the second semester. Luckily, I got a job at school. The first car that I bought in the US was a $900 old Chevy caprice, like the old [inaudible05:31] car that they use to drive around -- James: It had four wheels, right? Four wheels? Jack: Four wheels, yes. Michelle: And I was like Jack, why did you get this, I mean, there are so many cars, why did you get this car? And his answer was like, cars in Germany are so tiny, I was looking for the biggest car possible in the US. Jack: Like Germans and every single one of them bought the biggest car that they could find. James: That's good. That's good. Yes, I like to, that's a very interesting story from both of you, right. So I like to, I mean before we go into the technicality of the commercial real estate and all that, I like to understand a lot about the thought process and you know, the people behind it, right. Because I think that's what makes everybody successful. It's not about the tool like real estate, right. So tell me about what was your family thinking when looking about the US from outside, right? Did they think the US is the land of opportunity, easy to get rich? Or how I mean, can you talk about the process that when families outside of the country when they want to send their children to the US, what do they usually think, you know, what do they think that you kids will get here? Jack: Well, I think Michelle's mom was perhaps not thrilled that she would stay here. Michelle: Yes. James: But not thrilled? Michelle: No, yes. James: Okay. Michelle: The whole point was to come here, study, not find a husband, go back home and basically help her manage, you know, this piece of real estate and hopefully, you know, continue growing the legacy that was left to us. James: Okay. Jack: Next, get a job, right? Michelle: Yes, yes. Jack: Same thing here. My parents were absolutely not thrilled that I was staying here behind. They, I literally had the job lined up in Germany. I had the, I just put my student furniture in my parents' basement. I had a good degree from a good university and good things and they're like, what are you doing? What are you staying there? What's going on there, you're so far away. In particular, my mom had a really hard time with it for several years. But then once they saw our success, particularly once we entered real estate, and once we saw success and what that success actually means for them too and for us. It's like we don't, we see our parents, this year we see my parents three or four times even though they live in Germany. And it's like, and they, we support them a little bit financially. They get to come here and they get to spend time here. And they see that they don't have to worry about us like we're the one or like, we're my, Michelle and our family, they don't, they're like a peace of mind. They're okay. They're good. They're happy financially, they're good. So, you know what as a parent you wonder, you want to have that feeling. So they know, ultimately, it's a good decision and took them like 15 years to say that, but they did. Michelle: Yes, I mean, we also contributed to, you know, being able to retire Jack's dad before time. You know, a couple of years before he had been working as a school teacher for many, many years. And he was just at the point where he just didn't want to do it anymore but he couldn't leave it because, you know, that involved a big reduction in his pension if he did. And so we put the pedal to the metal back then and it was just through land flipping, to be able to make up for that, you know, for those two years of early retirement and being able to retire him early. So -- Jack: So he ended up retiring a year and a half, two and a half years early because of that and James: Wow, awesome. Jack: And so overall so now they totally have changed. Michelle: Yes, so family has been always I think also big why for us, a big driver to get things done. James: Got it. That's absolutely what happened, you can come here and help out your family back home. It's just sometimes people, I mean sometimes they think that okay we want to come to the US and stay here but that was not the case for both of you, right? I mean, you came to study and you're supposed to go back. But you got stuck with each other. Jack: The United States is a wonderful country to be. But then we also, we realized, I don't want to live in Honduras, Michelle didn't want to live in Germany. Nothing wrong with these two countries, they are beautiful countries but language barriers, cultural barriers [inaudible09:40] we're already here, let's try to make this work here. We got lucky, we both got jobs here. We got the job that got the visa, the h1B visa, took five and a half years to get to that process. Michelle: And it was a job, jobs we both hated. But we were handcuffed because of the, you know, green card situation. And so we had to stay but -- Jack: Yes, but yes, it was just something, let's see if we can make this work here because we like it here. And we -- James: Got it. Jack: Beautiful neutral ground also for us. James: So do you think that as an immigrant, did that whole life situation gave you a boost, a reason for you to be successful in the US? Michelle: Absolutely, it like, I think it was incredible, it gives you an incredible drive and hunger. Like I don't come from a wealthy society like Jack's, you know. I was going back to a third world country, you know, yes, from a middle-class family, but still to a very poor society. And so for me, yes, that, you know, that was an incredible drive, you know. You still go back home and those wealth disparities between the haves and have nots are brutal. And so you definitely don't want to be caught in the haves not part. You want to be caught in the other group of people. So, yes, that was definitely a big, big drive for me for sure. Jack: Yes, absolutely, yes, same here. I mean, but a different way. Here, it's more like I could, anytime I could have left and go to Germany, first-class country, Mercedes Benz, would've gotten a good job with a BMW as a business car and expense budget and staying in nice hotels and all those kind of stuff. But the overall I mean, there's something really amazing about the US and I keep saying and it's not like blind nationalism. It's just for business and for success and for comfort, and for just that particular business. It's just an amazing country. It's like so once we started setting our eyes on that, it's like, it's so easy to do this. And definitely helps to be an immigrant, I don't know if the hardship helps if you use them, right. Michelle: Yes. Jack: So we use them as fuel. We used them as a reason why we needed to succeed because we did not want to live a life like I was travelling 100%. I mean, sounds glamorous, like I was jumping the plane on Monday morning going somewhere. But I was staying in Holiday Inn Express where ants were crawling up the walls. And in some cases, and usually, in small towns, where there are five restaurants, three of them are fast foods and I was like working in some companies up till midnight and I didn't enjoy it. So I use those things as fuel to say okay, I really got to do something extra in order to succeed. Now, having said that, being an immigrant here, which as you can probably confirm, is you start, you see way more opportunity that the non-immigrant see. Because it's not normal to you, what you see around you is all new. So as it's new, you look at it from a different angle and you see the holes in it, based on compared to what you see in other places in the world. And it's like well, and any kind of opportunity that ever existed is really masking itself as a problem. So you see, like anything that created like glasses, have been created because people don't see up with eyesight anymore. The problem is the eyesight gives is the solution. So anything even multifamily is the solution to a problem. You take a problem, you take a problem property that's been run down and you make it into the prettiest property in the neighbourhood. You provide a solution for people who want to save, solid, good well-working place, affordable place to live you can make something out of that. And it's true for everything and as an immigrant, I have a feeling you see that much more than then if you're born and raised here and it's everything is just normal. James: Yes, yes. Hey, I had a friend from the UK and he left the UK came to the US and he kept on telling me this. I don't know whether the UK or entire Europe, right, I mean it's a well to do country, it's a rich country but there's no easy part to break out from your circle.You can't break out as a breakout and go to the next level, you’re always within that, you're probably working, you're earning, you're learning, you are living an average life like everybody else, but you can't break out to the next level. So I'm not sure how is that in Germany, but in the US. Jack: Plus Germans, they don't move a lot. So you're on top of it, almost like down by your social circles, that like there's a party, a thing and a friendship. So if you start breaking out, you become you're almost alienating the people around you. Michelle: An anomaly. Jack: An anomaly. James: Okay. Jack: And if you don't have the stamina to keep that off and build a new circle of friendships or so, then you're going to be pulled back down. And that's another benefit as an immigrant, it's like, hey, it's like you didn't burn the boat but you cut the ties. It's a brand new world, it's a brand new opportunity, you associate yourself and make friends with those people that you want to make friends with. And it's just a, it's almost, it's a brand new world. It's a different thing. James: Got it. Michelle: I think especially in Jack's case, you know, resonates with that because he comes from a very small town in Germany. And he's like, there are some people that even though I didn't want to socialize, I had to because it was such a small town. James: Yes, that's true. Jack: Once when I was younger I was in college, I went to study in Spain for half a year. I came back went to my favourite bar and they just asked me, hey you looked tan, what do you want to drink? So nothing changed in like eight months or so. And not a single thing had changed, the same people were sitting at the same desk, tables, in the same bar, drinking the same drink. And 20 years later, still is nothing has changed. It's still, you know, look older and unhealthier but other than that it's the same thing. James: Yes. That's maybe that's why the index happiness index is much higher in some European country. People are just happy with the way they are, right? Jack: Yes, and there's no judgment in that. Michelle: Yes. James: Why do you want to rush? Why do you want to rush? Why do you want to get rich just leave as it is, right so? Jack: Yes, there's nothing set to be there but if you have ambitions if you enjoy growth, like a bit like we enjoy personal growth. We're really on a personal growth journey, it comes with challenges, it comes with new hurdles, it comes with expansion and so it wouldn't be my work. Michelle: And those challenges, you know, are our part, we know are part of the journey. And you think that the goal is you know, a worth goal, but it's really, the goal is a being on a constant process of becoming, an expansion kinda like what Jack said. Jack: And the wealth comes as a side benefit of that. James: Got it. Got it. So let's go to your businesses. So you guys, you had your green card, you came here. You worked for how many years did you work on a corporate life? Jack: Five and a half. Michelle: Five and a half. James: Five and a half, so what happened after five and a half? When did you start your land flipping thing? Jack: Well, the land business, we started about three years in or two years in we realized this is not what we want to do with this job thing. So we started dabbling with real estate. And we really didn't find success until about four years into it, until the end of 2002. So -- James: Hold on, on the two years that you realize that your work is not the thing that you all wanting to do, right? Jack: Right. James: What was that ah-ha moment, say that? Jack: The ah-ha moment was actually, for me was the first particular day that the company of 7000 people, let go a 1000 people in one day. Michelle: Right after September 11. Jack: And the economy did a massive shift downwards, the software company that had grown from 500 people when I joined them to 7000 people, three years later to two or three years later, we're starting to go back down from 7000 to 4000 people. And they did that in one year. As a matter of fact, it was within three days, during that one year. James: Wow. Jack: So one day 1000, another day 1000, another day 1000. These cuts were like for a few months apart from each other. But the first time that happened was when they literally, left and right when they when we were at the customer side, there was a software company. But I don't know anything about software and just wasn't a business, account department. They, business analyst, we were so worried about the customer side, that the phone would ring and our network was shut down. Usually, connect the internet to our corporate networks to get to files and stuff, all of a sudden, nobody could get into the network. It's like, oh, you get it, you get it. Michelle: You know what's happening, right? Jack: We started calling people in other offices, what's going on, you get in, no, nobody could get in. It's like oh, our network is down. Next thing you know, few of them, was over the phone rings, the guy picks up and all the colour leaves his face. And three minutes later, he picks up, he grabs his stuff and says, hey guys, nice meeting you. I was just fired. And he basically picks up his stuff and leaves. And that's it. And I was like, what you mean that's it? Like, again, Germany, if somebody fires you, they have to give you three months, -- Michelle: Three months. Jack: Three months notice. James: I thought it was 12 months notice. Michelle: Yes, so then you can actually train your replacement. Jack: Train your replacement and so on and or least have to pay for three months, some company say go home, but they have to pay for three months. Here, you're off and they gave him I think of four weeks severance if they signed something that they wouldn't sue the company. So and then during the course of the day, a whole bunch of people that I knew were let go. And I was sweating bullets, obviously, you know, we both were sweating bullets, because obviously, we work -- Michelle: And at that point, I had joined actually Jack's immigration, you know, files and paperwork because we figured, okay, there are very few people trying to emigrate from Germany. And there's so many more coming from south of the border, that stuck on Jack's application. And so we were both, you know, on his paperwork. Jack: So if I would have lost that job, we would have 60 days to find another job or leave the country. So at that moment, we realized, okay, this is, we're so breaking replaceable here, we're just a number in this big wheel of 7000 people. And after the day only 6000 people were like, okay, we got it, we got to do something else. We don't like it. After five and a half in an industry, you're almost like pigeonholed in that industry. I didn't want to stay for the rest of my career in that industry. So we wanted to get out. And we didn't know how to do that we just looked around. And after a few months or weeks of looking, we came across real estate, tried all kinds of different things, but couldn't get anything to work until we came across land flip. Michelle: And I think the land flipping thing was even, like falling forward. Jack: Yes, like pure coincidences, just like -- Michelle: We're looking into taxing and taxing you know, taxing investing. And I had gone up to somewhere in Northern California to a taxing option and stumbled upon, you know, a piece of land, a lady that owned a piece of land and we auction it off. And we're like, oh my gosh, you know, how could we do something like this? But instead of waiting until an auction happens, you know, how can we get to people much, much sooner. And because if she's a, you know, an owner of vacant land and wanted out, there must be other people. Jack: So we started sending direct mail to owners of real estate who have back taxes. And only people that own land, call us back. And -- James: You know what, that is exactly happened to me. I was trying to look for houses and all the people with land call me back. I said I don't want land, I want houses. Jack: There you go, you just missed out on a big opportunity right there. James: Yes, I should have known you guys. Jack: And then one guy had a property, it was worth about $8,000. But he hadn't done it, what's called a percolation test to make sure to put a septic tank in there, to see how the water, how fast the water sinks in the ground and it hasn't passed the septic test. So to him, it was worthless and he was leaving the state and he was wanting to leave. And he's like you guys can have that thing. And it's like, well, how about $400, he's like take it. So we got this thing for $400. And we sold it literally the next day to the neighbor across the street for $4000. James: Wow. Jack: And that became the beginning -- Michelle: And that's because our negotiation skills sucked. We were, the neighbor shows up Jack: And they just offered 4000 and we said, yes. Michelle: We were ecstatic, you know. Jack: Instead of like negotiating, we're just like -- James: You were like 10 times more, that's it, done, right? Jack: Right. And then the next deal was 10,000, the next deal, babe then we got to deal with like 21 properties for $30,000 that we sold for over $100,000. And then all of a sudden things started working. And then we also realize that most people that want to get rid of these properties don't actually even own property taxes. So now we go after all the general land and we generated millions of dollars, and we started doing this part-time then. Then Michelle quit her job because she was on the visa, started this full time. And then in March of 2003, I got, we got the green card. And then a few months later we felt comfortable. Michelle: I retire again. Jack: Retire, exactly. James: So my wife styles me. Jack: Then so in October of 2003, we quit our job, but it just we stumbled into that, bonded, built it up. And then for several years, we put the blinders on and all we did was land flipping. We only put our head up when the market crashed and everyone around us was losing money and we're still making lots of money. And then that's when we started buying single families and then later apartments. Michelle: Because we could buy houses here for forty, fifty thousand dollars, you know, with five grand in repairs and rent them for anywhere between $900 to $1100. James: Yes. Michelle: So you know, it made sense. And we had all the cash profits, you know, from the land business, because that land business actually, we're able to grow it very rapidly to almost an eight-figure business. You know, the first year we did about 60 deals, the second year, we did about 120 deals, 130. Jack: The third deal, 3800 deals. Michelle: Because we use them, we figured out a way to flush a lot of these properties. And by using auctions. So we used to have big live auctions, you know, we advertise on TV, radio, billboards, periodicals, online flyers. And get like 600 people to a room here in the Phoenix Convention Center, and sell them in one day 250, 200 to 250 parcels. And so we were quickly able to scale that and -- Jack: Build a bigger operation then, with like 40 full-time people. At the auction days, we had 120 people work for us, it was a big operation and we built them. And then we use those profits to then get into the forever cash market meaning buy, put asset allocation, as I call it, take the money we made and roll it over into something that brings cash flow for the rest of our lives. Now we have like 50, completely free and clear rental properties, which now have quadrupled in value. And we still own. James: That's awesome. Awesome. It's very interesting on how you stumble upon doing yellow letters. So that's how, I mean, I was looking for houses. And I believe I look at tax lien lease, if I'm not mistaken, people who didn't pay tax because most of the people who have an empty land, they don't want to pay the tax, right? Jack: Right. James: Because I think there's no cash flow, there's nothing coming. So Jack: Exactly. James: So many calls coming back, I was surprised at the number of response, people calling, but was calling all for empty land. And I say, I'm not going to buy that. So but looks like you guys monetize that I, I should have known that. Michelle: And you know, and even there, it's like in our countries, there's no way that you're going to lose your property over for taxes. But here in the US, you do, you know, the tax lien foreclosure method or through the tax [inaudible 0:25:16]. So those are opportunities that perhaps we were able to really, you know, hold on to because neither of our country's -- Jack: We would like, it blows away that people would even let these properties go for taxes, it was a perfect opening for us. And yes, so we monetize it in two ways. We learn, we wholesale them, we wholesale them. And we still do that, we just sold one week, actually two last week and, I don't know, every week there are sales. And we wholesale them, basically we buy something for $2,000 and go sell it for 10, that's not a bad profit, right? James: Absolutely. Jack: You can live off that. And plus, they're very affordable these properties. Or what we also do is we sell a seller financing. So a couple of months ago, there was one particular deal I want to highlight, is we bought the property for $5,000, an empty lot here in the city of Phoenix. And we sold it for $64,000 with a $6,500 down payment. So if you do the math, we paid five for them, and we got 6,500. So we got all ready -- Michelle: Our money is back. Jack: The moment we sell the property, our money is back. And now for the next 20 years, we get $500 a month and we'll make over $112,000 total on a property that we have zero money in, the moment we sold it. James: That's awesome. That's awesome. So let's walk through the land, the best land flipping strategy. Right? Jack: Okay. James: Because you guys have done it many times, right? So first is where do you get the list of landowners? What the, where's the best place to find? Michelle: So there are three possible places, we are still in love with a more difficult one. Because the harder it is for me, the harder it is for everyone else. James: Correct. Michelle: So there are places like Rebel gateway or Agent Pro, where you can get lists. And I think these two -- Jack: Lists services. Michelle: List services that basically, Jack: Online lists services, James: Lists source, right? Is it list source or -- Jack: List source or logic or agent pro 24/7.com. There's a whole host of different websites. James: What kind of list should we look for? Jack: We're looking for land lists, ones with value James: Other criteria, right? Jack: Yes, land, the other criteria is that the land value is below $100,000. Typically, because we found that to be our sweet spot, now you can go up above, but then your response rates are going to drop. [inaudible27:41] the pay for these properties just skyrockets and so on. But you can do those deals like we have a student the other day that made $192,000 flipping a deal that he put on the contract for much more than we usually put the properties under contract for. It went for 80 and he sold then for, what is that, close to 270 or something or 300. And then he made his offer to closing costs 192,000. But usually beyond that, we like out of state owners, but they don't have to be out of state. So there's a couple of other criteria. Then once you get that list, -- Michelle: You send them you know, you send them a letter and you can either you know printing stuff and stamped and lick all your envelopes and your letters. Or you can send it through a mailing house if you want to outsource that and send out letters and just hold on to your seat because you're going to get -- James: You're gonna get a lot of calls. Michelle: A lot of calls. Jack: Right, you're going to get a lot of calls, exactly. We did, for example, yes, when you send out these letters also, so we don't use the yellow letter, we've developed our own letter and split tested that hundreds of times until we got it to a point where we could not improve the performance of it anymore. And so our letter sometimes, there are a few counties where you get lower response rates, but usually, you get at least a four or five, six percent response rate. And it can go as high as 15 to 20%. James: So let's say now someone calling you, say I will land to sell, can you buy from me? What are the things you look for, to see whether you want to take down their number and follow up with them? Jack: First thing is motivation. Michelle: Yes. Jack: Because almost any kind of land sells, it's just if you get it cheap enough. Now, having said that, there are certain areas, certain pockets that we don't buy. I mean, there are areas in Arizona, where its land, an acre of land is worth $500, that's not worth pursuing. So the value needs to be there. So we typically don't just go below $100,000. We also start above 10,000. So that we have, -- Michelle: So you don't get crap. Jack: So you don't get crap. Michelle: Yes. Jack: So good language here. So you gotta get you together, you don't get junk land. James: Thanks for being nice. Jack: Yes, we have that ongoing, she's the foul mouth in the family. Michelle: Hey, you throw me under the bus. Jack: So then you, yes, you sent out these letters, I thin I forget the question. James: The question is, once they call, what are the criteria -- Jack: You asked them a few questions, you go through a list of questions that we created the script for and asked like if there's early access, if there is utility to the properties, and none of those things is a deal-breaker, they just determine how much you ultimately going to offer for property. James: Got it. And how do you determine what you gonna offer? Jack: Comparables, you run for market comparables similar to houses plus there are a few extra ways, like for example, particularly in rural areas, there might not be comparables of the same size. So if you're looking at five acre parcel, and you only have like 10 and 20 acre parcels, and there's no other five acres to sold or listed, you gotta adjust for size sometimes. So basically, a 10-acre parcel is listed or sold for $30,000. Well, five acres, not automatically worth 15, it's more worth a little bit more, because in rural areas, the smaller the parcel, the higher the price per acre. Michelle: Yes. Jack: So you get down, it's like the other way around, the bigger you go, the more kind of volume discount you get on the acreage. So going from 20 to 40 is not a doubling, it's more like a one and a half times in value. James: Got it. Jack: So 20 is, so the value over 20 years because of comparable shows you that's $40,000 and an 80 is not a 20 to 40 or 40-acre parcel is not $80,000. It's more like $60,000. So there's kind of you can adjust for those things. But the nice part is we buy our properties for five to 25 cents on the dollar. So that's the key to this entire thing. Because when you buy at 10, 15, 20 cents on the dollar, you can be off in your analysis and still make money. And you can make money by selling the reseller of financing and getting a down payment that pays for the property. And you have so much margin of error and so much offer in there that it's almost impossible and I'm not saying it is but it's almost impossible to screw up. James: Yes, yes. And what tool do you use to find those comparables? Jack: We use, we go on Zillow, we go on Redfin, we go on realtor.com, we go on landwatch.com, the same free websites, because I ideally go on the MLS, but the MLS only has, doesn't have all the land is allowed land it sells like owner to owner. And also even if you have access to the MLS, we do deals from Hawaii to Florida. Our students do deals out of the country, you usually only have access to the MLS in one little pocket. So it's impossible to almost have access to the MLS all over the country. Michelle: And it's relatively easy to do the comparable analysis we develop, like our own proprietary software that basically connects through you know, to Zillow, Redfin and all these services. So when I'm at a record, you know, and I'm looking at it immediately it populates for me, you know, whatever comparables. And if it's a little bit, you know, more, if it takes a little bit longer for me to do that, it's maybe eight to 10 minutes, you know, to look up a record elsewhere, specifically, like if it's an info lot, and it's completely built out, you kind of have to like back into the value of the land by figuring out, you know, what are the average, you know, prices in homes in this area? What is the average square foot? How much would it take a builder to, you know, building your house and, and kind of that way back into the value by -- Jack: So we build five methods to the value of the thing, not less, not the least is actually assessed value, any counties the assessed value as a relationship to the market value. And if you can prove over the first 10, 20 analysis that you do that this relationship is reliable, and you can just use the assessed value too for evaluation. Michelle: In a particular county. Yes. James: So you have to pay property tax on all this land, right? Do you try to flip it within the year so that you don't pay property taxes? Jack: As a matter of fact, the way most of our students are doing this is that they don't actually ever buy the property. What they do is that they put the property on a contract and then go market the property right away, and then either do an assignment or do it what's called a double closing, where they use the same day transaction where they buy it and sell it both in the same day. And the buyer brings up all the funds that pays everyone. So -- James: That's a wholesaling technique, right? Jack: It's a wholesaling technique, James: Yes, like in houses, that's what -- Jack: Exactly it's same, the same technique just that we use land for it. And the nice part about land is there's no tenants, no toilets, no termites, there's no repairs. There's no you don't have to show anyone the property. Michelle: James and in the competition -- Jack: Is almost none. James: That's why so many people call me. Jack: Somebody on this podcast just told us that he walked away from owning land because he didn't know -- James: I know. You know, I was thinking that time why are these people selling all their land. I mean, there must be some business here. But I was so busy looking at houses, right. And I thought… Jack: Right and that's the normal thing. So there's almost no competition. And for the last 12 years, we have done this entirely, virtually we have not looked at a single piece of land ourselves. James: Yes. Jack: Google Maps, Google Earth, you can see it all, you don't, Google Street View, you can just drive by your lot, take pictures. And it's all there, no reason to get dirty and dusty out there. Michelle: And that's another thing that I think I want to add in terms of like how simple it is. And now that we've like perfected our system, how predictable it is, you know, is that when we started looking into real estate, because we're both not from here, we had no clue completely clueless about construction, about estimating repairs for kitchen or bathrooms, for flooring, for roofing, we had no idea. And you don't have to deal with any contractors, any, you don't have to deal with any of those headaches that usually you have to deal with improve property when you're dealing with land. So that's something else we forgot to mention. Jack: And that's actually why we also, the main reason why we didn't jump from that multifamily right away, but we took the bridge of single families because we first needed to learn the details of how much does it cost to rehab a kitchen and the bathroom, and the flooring and windows and things like that. We didn't want to tackle a $10 million project first. We wanted to go, start small, so we bought some rental houses with their own money so if we make mistakes, it costs us money and not our investors. And little by little we then learned and after realizing that we can manage those also remotely because our houses are in three different markets; Phoenix, Cleveland, Omaha and an even though new houses in Cleveland, I just hold a show last week. I may have a few houses that I couldn't even find anymore because I haven't, the last time I saw them was like eight years ago, and they spit out cash flow every month. The property management companies who charge them, everything is good. So after that experience was like we're ready for a step up and now buy the bigger buildings and manage them. And we can also do that remotely. James: Okay, that's awesome. So I'm thinking why did I miss this opportunity, right? And I think the answer to my question was, I do not know who to sell to. So how did y'all solve the problem? How do you go to market, okay, today you get land, how do you go and find the seller? Jack: So initially, we started with eBay and newspapers and then we figured out this big land auctions. But the big land auction stopped working about 2007, 2008. Michelle: And started doing online auctions. Jack: And then we started doing online auctions, we shifted, started everything online. So since about 2008, the middle of 2008 now, we have been pursuing and we have been selling all our land online through websites like Craigslist, through Zillow, through MLS. If you own the property, if you have a paragraph in it, it's just that you're allowed to market it. You can even a property if you own it, it's easy to sell it on the MLS anyway, if you don't own it, you can have a paragraph in your contract which we have, that allows you to market this then you can put it off to the brokerlessMLS.com for $99 goes on the MLS. Again, but in other, this land specific websites like land watch, landfliprealtor.com again, land of America and the biggest one that is right now driving the most traffic for us and everyone else is the Facebook marketplace. James: So they are people looking to buy land from people? Jack: Oh, lots of people like -- Michelle: Facebook marketplace and Facebook groups land, land groups. Jack: Yes, Facebook land groups. Yes, there's a big market. I mean, we focus on three kinds of land. Number one [inaudible 0:38:34] lots, can sell immediately to a builder. Number two, the lots in the outskirts of town, right, if this is the city right on the outskirts of the city, that's where we still buy land because it's in the path of growth. Cities like San Antonio, cities like Austin, cities like Dallas, cities like Phoenix, cities like LA, like Denver, all over the country, they're growing, their growing infill. They're there. They're growing in the outskirts of town we're there and there are two ways and the third way is we're focusing on larger acreage in the more rural areas. And that is for the multi-billion dollar market off RV, ATV's, hunters, campers, how would you love to have a 40-acre ranch out into the hills of East Texas, right? Wouldn't that be beautiful? James: Yes. Absolutely, Jack: Yes. And there's millions of people that are looking for that. And then we put the one on top because we get so cheap. If you offer those properties with seller financing, they sell very quickly. Michelle: Or a discount -- Jack: Or discount or market value, wholesale, there is price, will advertise it's a good property, it sells very quickly. And for example, one of our students just posted something that they put, they put an ad on the Facebook marketplace and within 24 hours that has 4250 people look at it and comment and message them. And obviously, they had to take the ad down and had multiple offers on the ads in one day. Now that's not necessarily typical, it might take a few weeks for the property to sell. But there are buyers with it's a b2c market right, we're the business to the consumer market. And the end consumer buys a lot of these lots and the [inaudible40:18] lots are B2B to the builders. Michelle: Yes. James: And how do you check the entitlement of the land? What is it zoned and all that? Jack: There's another company, Michelle: Yes, so you go through a title company, make sure titles free and clear. Jack: There are title companies that we use are not the same companies, different department that we use when buying a $10 million apartment complex than when we buy for it for a $30,000 piece of land. Obviously, the cost is different because they charge us a minimum cost, which is usually anywhere between $700 and $1200 a deal. But if you're about to make $50,000 on there, you can pay $800 and then make 14,200, still okay. James: What about land, which has a utility or going to get utilities, is that much higher price than? Jack: Usually it is and usually it's already, Michelle you can. Michelle: Go ahead. Jack: Usually, it's already in the assessed value included, occasionally it's not because the assessors like a year or two behind. But it's definitely already when you run your comparables, it's already in the market because that word is out and then other properties in the market are going to be listed higher, which tells you, okay, or listed or sold higher, which shows you the market value is higher. So your offer is going to be higher and the seller is going to be happy to accept it. And you make more money in the process. Michelle: And it's much more attractive to buyers too. Jack: And it sells quicker. Yes. James: Yes. So I can see people like me doing this, right, because I already have done the yellow letter marketing, I know all the languages and you know all that. But so anybody can do that, right? It's a simple business, which makes a lot of money. And you are basically bridging the gap between people who need the land versus marketing to their direct seller who is in a distressed situation or who just want to get out from. Most of the time they inherited the land, they don't want to pay tax and they just get rid of it. Jack: Looks like you talk to a few of them. James: I did, talk to a few of them. A lot of them said hey, you know, my mom gave me and she died and now I have to pay property tax on it. And can you buy it or not? Jack: Exactly right. Michelle: So you're helping them and then you're helping your buyers too. And I think the how quickly you sell the property has a lot to do with how you market the property, how what kind of listing you create, you know. There's a lot of crap where you just show a piece of dirt and no, you need to dream it, you know, you have a catchy headline. I mean, you have to understand a little bit of marketing and copy and grabbing people's attention and so on and so forth. But nothing that you can't learn. James: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And what do you think? I mean, you have a property software on it, right? What problem does it solve? Michelle: So what that does is, so back in the day, when we were starting, and we were doing in just a few deals, you know, we could manage to keep our stuff, you know, on paper, on an Excel spreadsheet. But the moment we basically started really scaling this, you know, at the point that we started doing the auctions, we could no longer continue using Excel spreadsheets, we really needed you know, a CRM. And not just a CRM to keep track of our buyers and our sellers, but to keep us organized in our process flow. From the moment that the mailing went out to the inbound call being received to are we ready on the status where we've done research and ready to send an offer, has the offer come back, accept it and we sent this out to title escrow, is it back? Is it ready to be put into the catalogue for the auction, you know, for sale? And so it basically it's a process deal flow from beginning to end for land specifically. Jack: And we build the software in-house that guides you along step by step through the process of buying a property, keep them organized, like statistics, as tax, there is a built-in buyers website, seller's website, calculator for the numbers and things like that. James: So why do you need like, you know, like you said, you have like 15 staffs, right, you have the CRM, what function does the staff do? Jack: The staff does the work, I mean, the CRM organize to work for you, but somebody needs to put in the data. And somebody really needs to press the buttons and do the -- Michelle: And somebody needs to pick up the calls from the buyers. Like we have a lady that is just in charge of that as of this position, basically, there are other people making sure that the phone rings and she's just answering them. Jack: But having said that, this is us, right, we want to spend our time with our 11-year-old daughter travelling the world. We want to spend our time focusing on apartment complexes and not focusing but spending our time, we love learning right and looking at complex deals and things like that. So after building our land business to the level that wanted to build it, we started putting a team in place of it. Having said that, we have many students that run one of them, at the top of the head, I think of one of them is also a coaching organization. He is on track this year to do 120 deals alone with one assistant with one virtual assistant. So the thing is, because it's simple because you don't have to rehab anything, because if you don't have to do anything like that, he can do a, he can do 120 deals just as a two-man or a man and woman, kind of show. And so you don't need a big staff is a point, we have a staff of like somebody picks up the phone calls, answer them they, you can outsource everything. So we use a mailing and a call center to take the phone calls, we use a mailing house to send out the letters. So what we have inhouse is somebody does the deal analysis to figure out what the properties are worth, and somebody who team of two people that prepare the listings and go sell the properties. Anything else you don't really need, anything else you can do, you can outsource. Michelle: And documentation, unless you like to work with documents, paperwork. Jack: But all of that is electronic. Again, it comes in we have buyers signed by DocuSign. We have, we scan things, we put it on to Dropbox, we use different files. We attach them to our CRM and stuff. But it doesn't require a lot of people to do this, which makes it even more profitable. James: Yes, yes. I mean, I think you've sequence it very nicely so that you can scale gracefully and you can have your own time too, awesome. Jack: Probably the biggest thing I think that this business because there's no competition and as you said the sellers have people that are, there are people that inherited this property, they're not getting 25 letters a week, like the hospitals. They're getting nothing a week, so when your letter comes in and when you make that offer, we sent the offer by mail to them, we give them 10 days to actually accept the offer. Then when we buy it, we get a contract and we have three months or four months or six months, whichever we want to close on it. So it destresses the entire thing. That means we can design this business around our lives. And so the life designing with a life -- Michelle: Retrofitting it into the business, Jack: Yes, determining when we have free time. So it's truly a business that can be done based on everyone's work schedule and in full time can be designed such that you work with around the things that are important in your life. James: So does it still work now in this economic cycle? Jack: It's actually right now is the best market that we have seen in probably 15 years. Michelle: Yes. James: Why is that? Jack: Because the market is up so it means that buyers are, still buyers will, the sellers will always be there. James: Sellers always be there, yes. Jack: There's always going to be people that inherited the property and don't want it anymore. But the buyers are right out there, right now out there in the market. They're positive, they're upbeat, they want to buy these properties. They want to take them up, take their RV's up there. Michelle: Ride their RTV's. Jack: Ride their RTV's, spilled something on it so the properties are flying off the shelves, and probably the big right now our properties and our students' properties, we see the highest margins that we've probably seen since we teach this. James: Awesome, awesome. Michelle: We have people that are doing this that are you know, stay at home moms, single moms to Rob, who's a dentist, he no longer is a, well, he will always be a dentist, I guess. But he sold his practice because, you know, 10 months into the land flip he's like, I don't need to be behind the chair anymore. And now his wife who is also a dentist is looking to sell her practice as well, to people that are having a job still in parallel because they, you know, they are already 30 something years in it. And they're like they have just one more year for their pension. So they don't want to go back and are doing it in parallel. I mean, we have -- Jack: It's across the board. Michelle: It's across the broad, from all works of life. James: Yeah, I can see anybody doing this, right? It doesn't take a lot of time and effort, not like house flipping or even rentals or… Michelle: Yes, in the house flipping world, you get a call from a seller and he says I'm interested. I mean, you better meet him at the property, like within a few hours, because you're going to have two or three people that are chasing the same house. James: Yes, yes, yes. That's what happened to me. I missed out on the land flipping, I went house flipping, life has become so busy. So coming back to the next level commercial asset, not the next level. I mean, the other commercial asset class that you guys are doing, which is multifamily, right. And you said you're doing it so can you explain that to me why you're doing that? Jack: Yes, we're doing that for long term generational wealth. So in other words, right now we do syndicate deals. So we have some deals that we make very good money, but and we have our assets and our paid-off properties. But so we wanted to take the next step in complexity, the next step and leverage the next step in personal growth. So we -- Michelle: Exactly, I think our investing has really followed our own personal journey, you know, of development and growth. So Jack: Right, so one of the things, so we started buying these properties. And the first one, we realized, we syndicate it with our investors. And then the second one, the first few we syndicate investors. As a matter of fact, the first one we came in as a junior partner. So we raised the thing, the guy that couldn't raise all the money. And the moment he was about to lose this deal and he basically said, like, if you guys raise half of the money, you get half of the deal, which is obviously a great, great deal. I've never come across that. Michelle: And we're gonna learn how to do it, as he has been doing this for many years. I'm like, that sounds like a perfect situation. Jack: But we also needed to put in $80,000 in escrow deposit, which we could have lost. So it was, he asks for something and he gave something, was a great deal. So we came in, we ended up raising 60% of the money. And doesn't matter, we didn't get more than 50% of the deal. We got in we learned a ton and then we started doing this on our own. And the first few deals like there was just, we have a lot of income, but we have like your cash availability is not always $3 million, right? So we basically looked at it as like we needed $3 million. Let's put some money in ourselves and let's raise the rest through syndications. So we did a syndication for the last few deals. And at some point of time, we might transition into doing deals without investors, the reading hold on for the long term, 10, 20, 30 years, and then our daughter can potentially then inherit and she can keep them or sell them and upgrade them and so on. But in essence, it's a way to, what attracted us to it over the single families is that there's another layer of management, another layer of separation between us and the actual issues on the problem. Michelle: Yes, because now all of a sudden, you know, when you're looking at 100 doors at a time, and that scale allows you to have you know, on the ground, a full time, you know, leasing person, a full-time person for repairs or maintenance. Another one that is turning units around, you know, we have the regional director with, you know, with the property management. And so for us, it's really a lot of asset management, but not the everyday thing of like, would you approve, you know, the repair on a toilet or on this, small things-- Jack: Which, today, I got two more in our single families because they have an authorization limit of $500 on me there because I don't trust them with more. So on a single family, so everything over $500 goes to me, which is literally something three or four things a week that happen especially in summer when it's hot, and AC breaks and so on, that are just like driving me crazy. Because every single time it's like they don't give you the information you need. They don't give you the details you need, you have to jump on the phone call, you have to email back a few times. They don't follow the instructions and how to submit it versus when you operate on a larger property, you can distance, you're removed from these things. You get a status report, you can dive in with your expert partner on the deal, I mean, the regional manager into it. And more than anything, the other thing we realized is you very well know, you can force appreciation and you can force value increase rent, which on the single-family house, you can just, you just cannot do. Michelle: Yes. And elevation is not based on the income but it's fixed but based on other properties. James: Yes, yes I always say that you can build a house, painted with gold, on real gold but the value is still going to be following the other houses surrounding it. Jack: Exactly. James: Are you guys using the depreciation from multifamily to offset the active income on your land? Jack: Yes. Of course, yes. Big time. I mean we -- Jame: That's double right. Jack: We have done on all the units we have, we have done the cost segregation study, and it is literally. Michelle: It shows a lot of the profits from the land flipping even from the educational business, you know, it's a very purpose-driven business for [inaudible 0:54:03] and it throws a nice chunk of cash. And I'm like, we need to, you know, protect that. And so we're, it feels like, you know, with apartment investing, we get to have the cake and eat it too, in terms of, you know, getting the cash flow in. Jack: We get cash flow, we get income, any cash flow, we get appreciation and we get the tax benefits that wipes out almost the entire income of the other things that we do. So it's a it's like a dream come true. Yes. James: Yes. So you want to consider real estate professional, not because of the land, but because of that single-family homes? Jack: Because of really everything I mean, Michelle: That's all we do. James: If you do just land, are you considering real estate professional? Jack: Yes, the land is real estate. As a matter of fact, I always say that when somebody says I've never dealt with land, only do houses. I said like, it's actually I said, it is actually an incorrect statement. Because you have never bought a house -- James: Without the land? Jack: What you buy is the land and the house on it. James: Yes, correct. Jack: That's truly a land transaction that had a house on it. The legal description of the property is not the house, it doesn't say it's a four-bedroom, three bath house, no, you're buying this lot, lot number 23 with whatever it happens to be on it. And what is on it is a luxury house or a dump is just defines the value differences. But so with a real estate professional, doesn't have to be defined by analysis, or commercial, or you can be land too James: Got it, got it. So let's go to a bit more personal side of it. So no technicals? So why do you guys do what you do? Michelle: I think for me, you know, in the beginning, it was about us having freedom of money, time, you know, relationships. And right now, it's about freedom of purpose, you know. It has you kind of like, you know, when you're struggling, somebody is listening to this, they're struggling, or they have a job they hate or whatever, the very first thing that you look at is how can you take care of your immediate family? When you have that taken care of, then you start looking at, okay, how can I, you know, start, you know, helping them my church or helping in my community or helping on a much, much larger scale. So for me, you know, a lot of my, you know, what drives me right now, and my purpose and my why is to become a mentor and a leader. You know, for other women to start investing in real estate, to start, you know, having their money work for them, for example, and set an example, you know, I want to be a hero for my daughter. And I want her to also grow into a lady that you know, knows how to manage your finances, that is very comfortable with investments, whether small or large and so on. So, Jack: For me, along the similar lines, I remember the year 2007, when we were and we had accomplished our first major, big financial goal, which was a certain number, I feel everyone has their number and goal in mind. And we had just moved into a gorgeous, semi-custom home that we designed from scratch up and all of a sudden, we're like, you reach those goals, and you almost like fall into a hole. And we fall in that hole because you expect to be like all candy and rainbows and everything and unicorns, but actually the quite opposite of that. But it's like for a moment you celebrate and then you're like, what now, right? So we basically sat down and was like, okay, so we can sit down now and we can go retire in essence, we can go sit down, we can do nothing. But we realized, for example, there's a charity in Michelle's home country Honduras, that we said we could go work in charities, in charitable work. But we realized, we're really very good at getting businesses to a profitable stage, we're good at kind of creating money, Michelle: That's kind of like our genius. Jack: And so that we are not the person that's going to live in the Honduran in rain forest jungle and feeding the poor, so but it's close to our heart. So why don't we stick to what we love doing Michelle: Our strength. Jack: So that we generate the money that we can be more impactful in those kinds of things. And as a side thing, I love real estate, I mean, I don't see myself not doing real estate ever. I mean, I hate it the entire the IT industry. I'm not personally involved in the continuous development of our software, because I'm kind of scarred from that time in the IT industry. I get involved into the what the vision is of it, but, and then we have a great guy that drives the implementation of these things. But we focus on deals, we focus on and if I can focus deals for the rest of my life and opportunities then I'm a happy camper, it's just what I love doing. So and it throws off money and that allows us to help more people, that is awesome. Michelle: And be transformational in the way, you know, and the way we treat our investors and the way that you know, people that want to participate in our deals. Jack: So the teaching side of things, we started the teaching side of things also kind of like almost like a mission kind of the point of view that not that we need the rest to save the world. But there are so many people out there that do real estate either the wrong way or that they don't know that there's an easier and simpler way that you can do real estate. And learn and grow build the confidence and capability in your life that then allows you to do whatever the heck you want to do afterwards that we feel like I was called to teach this and show the land flipping part of things to people. So they can also get on their own feet. And we have had years where we lost money in that business where we put it on their own pocket for and it was still fulfilling because we see the difference that it makes in the people's life. So we were committed and our core values are to be transformational. Michelle: Yes. And it's not just walking a person through a deal by really sculpting someone's spirit you know, someone's confidence, someone's courage through the process of a real estate deal. So it's incredibly rewarding work for sure. James: Okay, okay. So why don't you tell about how to find you guys. How can the listeners find you? Jack: Easiest way to find us on the land flipping side is to go to landprofitgenerator.com and you can also go to www.orbitinvestments.com, there's a link over to the land flipping side. There's a couple of other links on too. James: Okay. Michelle: I'm on Facebook Michelle Bosch, Instagram michelleboschofficial. Jack: And again on the land site we since we don't teach the apartment complex things, you do that. We have no educational things about that, we just, we do syndicate with investors. We do probably similar deals and but on our website like all the educational things all about land flipping. So we have a Facebook group called Land Profit Generator Real Estate Group. So everything we do on the land side is called land profit generator. So you look for land profit generator, you find us and orbit investments is more like the overall holding company above everything else with links to all the different pieces that we do. James: Awesome. Well, Jack and Michelle, thanks for coming in. I learned so much and I learned what I didn't miss too, but I'm sure the listeners learned a lot of things from today's podcast. Thank you for coming in. Michelle: Thank you so much for having us, absolutely. Jack: Looking forward to seeing you at the next mastermind. James: Absolutely. Thank you Michelle: Thank you, bye.

Michelle Cox's genre bending series Henrietta and Inspector Howard blends mystery, romance and family saga into a Chicago Cinderella tale of Downton Abbey meets Upstairs Downstairs that her readers adore. Hi there, I'm your host Jenny Wheeler, and today Michelle talks about  her passion for period drama and 1930s Chicago, how working in a nursing home got her started writing, and what she'd do differently if she were starting over again. Six things you'll learn from this Joys of Binge Reading episode: How a nursing home job led her to writingHer passion for the 30s and 40sTelling Chicago stories that resonateThe period drama website she adoresThe writers she admires mostThe shock of discovering writing as business Where to find Michelle Cox: Website: www.michellecoxauthor.com Facebook: @michellecoxauthor  Twitter: @michellecox33 What follows is a "near as" transcript of our conversation, not word for word but pretty close to it, with links to important mentions. Jenny: But now, here's Michelle. .  Hello there Michelle and welcome to the show, it's great to have you with us. Jenny:  Was there a “Once Upon A Time' moment when you decided you must write fiction or you would have somehow let yourself down, or not completed something you were meant to do?  And if so, what was the catalyst for it? Michelle: Well no, not really. I didn't actually see myself writing fiction. I never had the courage to be a writer. I loved reading as a kid - I was always reading, and I think one of the greatest Christmas presents I ever got was a set of the Louisa May Alcott series. Introducing Michelle Cox I was always trying to do little copy cat or fan fiction stories based on her novels, but they never really went anywhere so I usually did illustrations on them instead. I was a pretty good essayist in high school, so I did still contemplate being a writer versus becoming a doctor. Michelle Cox - historical fiction author I actually chose to be a pre-med in college, because I thought it was the easier path than being a writer and it seemed less scarier to me. It turns out that was sort of true! At the time I thought, I would go into pre-med. Then I took this Victorian Lit class and I told myself, you can't keep hiding. This is really your passion. So I quickly switched, but still only majored in English Literature and not creative writing. Then I got married after college and had all these weird jobs, and started a family. Writing was on the way out until my oldest son, 16, was diagnosed with ADHD. I had been volunteering in all these committees and groups, and I just went cold turkey and quit everything. I just devoted all this time to this kid. It didn't take too long for him to get on a path, and then suddenly I had all this time. I could either get a job, go back to volunteering, or maybe I could write that novel that I really always wanted to write. Suddenly, I gave myself the permission and the courage after 20 years to really do this. But it wasn't really to be published; it was just to see if I could sit down and write a novel. It was a strange way that it all happened, but here we are! A serious-minded little girl Jenny: I noticed you said that you did Victorian Lit - were you always attracted to historical fiction? Michelle: Yes. You know, when I was a kid I was probably the weirdest kid because I had this thing in my head where I always wanted to read the Newbery award winners or the Caldecotts. I was always attracted to the classics and I always had this motivation that I should read only really good books. I remember one summer being 10 or 11, and my mum taking me to the library and I felt so conflicted. I said, "Mum, I don't know whether to pick out the junk or to read the classics". She said, "oh honey, just read junk!" But I couldn't do it. I had to read the Newbery's. I basically read only classic literature until my third kid was born,

We have decided that we're going to do a ‘You Ask, We Answer' every month. Last Wednesday of the month - tune in and we'll be answering your questions. In detail! With chutzpah! So, keep sending us your questions, your problems and your issues related to wedding planning. We read everything, we answer every email, and we might read your email on the air (don't worry, we'll ask permission!) so that your questions, and our answers, can help countless other people in the midst of wedding planning. It's a win win, y'all! Big Takeaways Quick reminder - don't forget to hashtag #planthatwedding when you post about our podcast or your wedding planning. We're tagging everything with #planthatwedding - across all social media. And if you send a little video of you listening to the podcast (love our opening song? Thanks!) - you will MAKE OUR DAY. 1 Email - “Unkind Mother of the Bride” Ask: This listener, Cheyenne, wrote in about her mom. “She's always been an unhappy person, but it wasn't until I was an adult that I realized how narcissistic and downright mean she is.” This heartbreaking email outlines the bride's tense relationship with her mom, and how it's affecting her wedding planning. This bride has distanced herself during the planning process, but is very worried that her mom's involvement and presence will ruin the wedding day, and taint her experience of what is supposed to be a joyful day. She wants to know if she should cut her mom out of the wedding completely. Answer: Note that we are not therapists. But we do have some experience with all of this. Repeat this; “I can no longer wish my mother to be who I want her to be.” Release your expectations of your mother - she will never meet them. Take her for who she is, or don't. Don't put any weight on your mom's reactions any more. Our advice is to invite her to your wedding. And for the rest of the planning process, and on the actual wedding day, shut her down immediately anytime she begins a sentence that starts to go negative. (Don't ask for her advice. She'll likely give it anyway, but don't ask.) Something like this, “Ok, mom. Love you.” And then you hang up. Or walk away. Or close the door. Try not to let her get to you. It's your wedding day and it sounds like it's going to be beautiful - enjoy it. You can't change your mom. You CAN have the wedding of your dreams. We believe in you, Cheyenne! 2 Email - “Newbie Wedding Planner or Experienced-and -Maybe-Over-priced-Planner” Ask: This bride wants to know if she should hire a planner that is new to the industry and offering a great deal for full planning, or an experienced planner with fairly high prices. Answer: There are pros and cons, of course. In our long answer, we emphasize the importance of “month of” planning, as we have often on the podcast. Things to think about: - With the established planner, make sure that you know -in writing - exactly who will be there managing the wedding day. (It could be an associate, and you should know if this is a possibility.) - With the ‘newbie' - get references of previous brides she has worked with, even if it's only 2. - Also with the newbie - check out her day-of templates. Make sure her contract is long and legit. A good vibe between you and your wedding planner is VERY important. You have to go with your gut a little. If you feel like the newbie will: - have your back - aim to please - be very responsive - stand her ground (advocate for you, be a strong liaison between you and vendors, make quick, SMART decisions day of, be assertive...) ....then we think you should hire her. There's no guarantee the experienced planner will be better just because she's done more weddings. We were all newbies at some point! Links we referenced www.livingaf.com and @amandafailla - super awesome fan that sent a video to us! https://www.zola.com/bigwedding - Our Sponsor! When you sign up, use the /bigwedding and get a $50 credit just for being a TBWPP listener *Quotes * “I lost more sleep and I was more anxious for this PTA event than I have been for any wedding ever.” - Christy, event planning runs the gamut “We want to know who you are!” - Christy and Michelle “Yes, we do believe in you. And we are here for you!” - Michelle, to our dear listeners “My question is: Should I just cut my mom off to avoid the eminent drama and hurtfulness that has no place at our wedding? I just feel like that will be the end of our relationship and something that I regret for the rest of my life. It feels me with anxiety wondering what horrible thing she will say or do during my wedding.” - Listener Cheyenne “Believe me, the next time she says something awful, stay silent. Silence makes this type of person very uncomfortable.” - Michelle, with advice for avoiding conflict “Make sure her timeline is super detailed. Make sure her contract is long and legit. And make sure she has templates for the ceremony layout...look at some paperwork.” - Christy, words of advice when hiring a wedding planner - you have to know what they are actually going to DO for you Get In Touch Let us know if you have any questions you need answered on the show or if you want to share your own wedding planning experiences! EMAIL: thebigweddingplanningpodcast@gmail.com FACEBOOK: @TBWPpodcast INSTAGRAM: @thebigweddingplanningpodcast BE SURE TO USE THE HASHTAG: #planthatwedding TWITTER: @TBWPpodcast PHONE: (415) 723-1625 Leave us a message and it might be on the show!

Michelle Vandepas is a best-selling author, TEDx and Keynote speaker and workshop and retreat leader attracting clients who know they want to dig deeper into or do more with their lives and businesses. She works with those who need a bigger audience, have a message to share, and know that now is the time. For Michelle, it’s not about who you are, but what you’re here to do. Her online courses, live mastermind programs, and VIP retreats have attracted thousands of people who now understand how to “BE” in their DO-ing, clear about their PURPOSE and filled with the SPARK of life. MENTIONED IN THE SHOW: The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron GUEST LINKS - MICHELLE VANDEPAS TheSpark.love The SPARK Facebook GroupPurpose: The Alignment Guide Free Gifts from Michelle HOST LINKS - SLADE ROBERSON Slade's Books & Courses Get an intuitive reading with Slade Automatic Intuition BECOME A PATRON https://www.patreon.com/shiftyourspirits Edit your pledge on Patreon TRANSCRIPT INTRO Hey, thanks for listening to the Shift Your Spirits podcast. I’m your host Slade Roberson. For eleven years, I’ve been a professional intuitive and the author of the blog Shift Your Spirits, where I try to write about spirituality with fewer hearts and flowers than most New Age blather. I also mentor emerging intuitives, psychics, and healers in a program called Automatic Intuition. Today, I’m sharing a conversation with Michelle Vandepas about aligning with your purpose. And, of course, as always, there’s an oracle segment at the end of the show. So be thinking about a question or a concern you have. Hold it in your mind, and I’ll come back on, after the final links and credits, and leave you with that extra message. And to tell you the truth, I am personally really looking forward to what that message is going to be! You may not realize this, but I use them for myself. It’s Friday, October 13, 2017 as I record this, and it feels a bit like the sky is falling. We’ve got wild fires in Northern California, people starting to die in Puerto Rico from drinking water out of creeks and ditches, going weeks without power or cell service… and millions of us in the US are about to lose our healthcare coverage. I really don’t know how much to address current events on the podcast, because the majority of you are listening from the future. Thousands of you. I want the content to be evergreen—meaning it can speak to you at whatever point in time you are listening. There is great power in the synchronicity of when you receive these messages. And even if I try to be super current with events in the present, they’re going to be a week behind, at best. So much changes, day to day... So, if I seem like I’m saying too little, not saying enough, or seeming to ignore something that happened this morning or went down in a big way yesterday, it’s just because recording is a snapshot in time, but the messages transcend time, to come and find you in your now. I am attempting to make content that has that ability. I am admittedly dancing around this. Awkwardly. If you have any input about how you’d like me to handle timely events, I would love to hear your suggestions. Shoot me an email. If you’re fine with my making these episodes entirely timeless, email me and let me know that too. Before I forget, I want to say a quick thank you to Merrie Kisch, my newest supporter on Patreon. And also thank you to Ann Luke-Montez who raised her pledge amount. I appreciate all of you who have pledged your support and I’m really excited to see the new names each week. It demonstrates that you’re enjoying the show and want it to continue. That’s very encouraging to me, thank you. Listen, I’ve lost a lot of people who are angry that I am communicating in audio. I have gone to great trouble to make most if not all the episodes available as a written transcript — today’s episode with Michelle about aligning with your purpose does indeed have a full transcript. For the record, there are eleven years worth of posts — hundreds if not thousands of articles — available on my site. Go to sladeroberson.com/archives There’s a search feature and tons to read. But I’m still getting emails from long-term followers who are disappointed. They don’t like the change. They want me to go back to short blog posts once a week. And you know, this platform has to grow and evolve. I needed to make this new and exciting and to breathe new life into Shift Your Spirits with this audio. Working with me is essentially talking to me, and I know from the feedback from those of you who love the show that it is authentically aligned with my voice. I’m telling you this because I want you to know that pledging your support on Patreon is one of the ways that you tell me to make this show for you and to ignore those who are sending me, well, hate mail for making this show. Some people do not like change. Change is the only thing in the world you can rely on. You gotta be a change surfer. You gotta learn to adapt and be flexible in all areas of life… But to wrap up this rant — it’s not just a “pledge drive” when I tell you about Patreon. It really literally is you saying “Slade, I love this podcast. I’m out here listening. I find the shows meaningful and helpful. Please keep sending me episodes." …I will. I plan to. Listeners who support the show on Patreon can access bonus Q&A episodes, where you guys send in questions, I record answers to them, and they go out to patrons of the show exclusively. I just released a bonus episode “How to Manifest a Relationship” as a tie-in to the show on soul mates. You guys who are supporters will find that download in the posts section on Patreon. You can edit your pledge amount at any time, like Ann did, if you decide you want to access the bonus audio. I’ll put a link in the show notes on how to do that. https://patreon.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115002804683-How-do-I-edit-my-Pledge- To find out how you can become a patron, support my time in producing this show, and access the extra audio content, please go to patreon.com/shiftyourspirits Okay. Let’s get to this week’s interview. Purpose. It’s one of our favorite subjects to talk about. And I’ve found someone perfect for us to talk to. Michelle Vandepas. TRANSCRIPT of INTERVIEW Slade: So, by way of introduction, for those of you out there who may not have heard of Michelle Vandepas, Michelle, why don't you tell us who you are and what you do. Michelle: So... Wow. I am a - so that's a great question, right? I suddenly realize I don't know how to put myself in a box of who I am and what I do. So I'm an author. I write. I'm a coach. I'm a business coach. I'm a book publisher. I'm a TEDx speaker. Those are all my accomplishments. But really who I am is someone who is highly concerned about the energy in the world and how I believe when we all are connected to our authentic self, when we're on purpose, when we feel alive and we feel aligned with who we are, that we can help change the planet to be a better place. Slade: Well, you know, in the time that I've known you, and we were just chatting before we started recording, about how we've known each other for probably ten years. And in that time, I've seen you do all the things that you're talking about. The TED talks, courses, workshops, masterminds, in a lot of areas that obviously are connected and make sense. But I'm wondering how did helping people align with their purpose become your purpose? How did you identify - how did you land here? Michelle: Yeah, good question. So what's really interesting is I've always been doing this in my business coaching, and back 20 years ago when I owned a business, a manufacturing business, it was a lot of coaching the employees and the staff members about how they could contribute the best in the work place. So I feel like I've always been coaching other people to be on Purpose. How I kind of came full circle and decided to devote the next few years of my life to helping people with it is I think when we're not feeling aligned with our own Purpose, everything else is just slightly off kilter or out of whack. So it's very difficult to run a business if you don't feel like you're doing what you're here to do. It's difficult to raise a family if you're always in stress about it and you don't feel aligned. So no matter where you are in your life, it comes back to understanding who you are at the core and then I know you relate to this. You write about Purpose all the time, Slade, so I think there's something fundamental that when we can accept who we are, know that we are here for a reason, that we can feel on Purpose with our lives, it helps everything else unfold. It helps all other areas of our life. So I think that's where I feel I can make the biggest difference. Slade: Okay. So Life Purpose. You hear those two words together a lot. It's a tricky thing to identify. I can tell you right now that this show will get tons of downloads just from that keyword or phrase in the title. I've seen it before. As you said, I do write about Purpose and speak to people about it and it's probably in 99% of the conversations I have with people when I do readings. So the thing is, back to the idea that it's a little tricky to identify. For a lot of people, it gets mixed up with creative passions, hobbies, jobs, career tracks, maybe it's a little of all of those things. Just tell me how do you define Purpose? Michelle: Yeah, I love this conversation. So the way I view Purpose is you're already living it. Everybody is already living it. Even if they don't know what it is. It is just something that is inside of us. And Purpose is how we express out into the world. In the very biggest picture, like the hugest picture, is how we express our love into the world. But that's difficult because love comes with so many romantic notions that it's hard to always wrap our brain around that. So let me give you an example. I like to work with archetypes when I'm talking about Purpose because I think it helps us relate a little bit easier. Most of us can relate to feeling like we're a teacher, we are a leader, we're a caregiver, we might have mom or dad energy, we might feel like we're a nurturer. These are energies. These are expressions of a way to give back or to live our life. But they don't have really anything to do with a vocation or a hobby or a job or a passion. So if you identify with, let's say, the caregiver archetype, you enjoy helping people, you like to nurture other people. You may or may not become a nurse or a hospice provider. You might be able to live that archetype through being a teacher or through being a barista or through blogging. That archetype can come through many many ways. And that's usually something that we're born with. That's an essence of our soul about how we express out into the world. If you don't feel identified with that archetype, if you don't feel like you're a caregiver, it's not going to be the first thing that is expressed out while you're out in your world. So to bring this back around, if you have a job in - let's just say you're a blogger, you will naturally tie into your gifts that you were born with, such as teacher or leader or inspirer or caregiver, through your writing, when you feel more connected with the archetype of your individual purpose. Does that make sense? Slade: Hmm.. oh yeah! Actually I really love this. I love the archetypes, and that's a good filter to view this from. Because it's sort of like an ingredient, like you said it's an essence, and you can put that essence in a lot of different places. Right? Like it sort of comes out of you no matter where we put you. If you're a nurturer, or a natural cheerleader, it doesn't really matter if you're literally on a sports team or you're just working in a bank. Michelle: That's right. Slade: It's gonna kind of express itself to the people around you, right? Michelle: Right. And where I see people get a little disrupt or feel disengaged with Purpose is when they're trying to chase it around their work. So if you know that you're a caregiver then you're suddenly like rolling your eyes and thinking, 'Ah, I gotta go be a nurse.' Well what you said is totally on point. That no, start with what you're already doing in your life and notice how caregiving shows up. Or notice how cheerleading shows up. When you start noticing what you're already doing in all areas of your life, you'll feel more connected. And as you start feeling more connected, then you're willing to express it more. You're willing - because then you have proof that yes, this is who I am, right? The world becomes our mirror and we go, 'Yes, I am a cheerleader.' This is awesome. People respond to this. And then we do more of it naturally. Slade: Hmm... So what else do you think people tend to kind of get wrong when they go looking for their Purpose? Like you said, when they go chasing it and they get off track, what's some other... 101 bungles... Michelle: Yeah. I'm the perfect poster child for this, right? We always teach what we learn, or we teach what we need to learn, whatever that saying is. So a great example is, I had a period of my life when I became very engaged with my artistic side of myself. And I loved painting, and doing all kinds of creative endeavors and I spent hours and hours... I had some luxury of time back then, and spent a lot of time developing my creative self and my artistic self and I went to workshops and I had some shows and I suddenly had this light bulb - wow this must be my Purpose. And so I decided, I set up shop, I set up my own art exhibits, I suddenly was investing in getting things framed and having to sell things and then I was asked to do a couple of commissions and I'm like, oh man, I hate this so much. It's like, my passion and my creative expression suddenly turned into a job. Because I had mistakenly thought my Purpose was related to my passion. And I can have a passion for art that isn't necessarily my Purpose. My Purpose is more about inspiration, teaching, leading, and I can do those things through my art, but the art itself was not my purpose. Slade: I'm actually kind of comforted to hear you say this because I live an entirely second life as a fiction author. So I have this, these two worlds, or two roles, and sometimes it just makes me uncomfortable trying to have to make them both be about the same thing. And I really just learn to kind of let them be two things and in my mind, my Purpose feels like it's related around Shift Your Spirits, it's what you know me for, it's very much what you do as well, inspiring, enabling, coaching, supporting people, teaching, telling stories. And then, you know, the other thing is an art. It is a passion and it's a hobby. It's also business but it doesn't have to be - everything doesn't have to be in one box, right? Michelle: Um hmm... let me ask you a question. In your fiction writing, do you feel as though you're bringing any of your inner Purpose like inspiring, and leading, and those things through any of your dialogue or your characters? I'm just curious. Could be yes or no. Slade: Yeah, I actually ask myself this question a lot because I feel like it's not so on the nose that I feel like my stories have to be inspirational reader's digest type fiction or something. Or like some - I don't write stories about people who are on a spiritual mission or anything like that. So I have asked myself this question and I think it's more about a deeper emotional kind of journey. The ability to give someone another life in another world to experience, which is so much of what I get out of reading fiction, and I think that there's a case to be made for story-telling being such a huge part of so many areas of what we do in the world whether it's ministry or teaching or just entertainment. Stories are big business and they're big soulful enterprises in and of themselves. So I think where I come down with it is I feel like my magic comes in the form of words. And I have always had a gift for storytelling and sometimes that includes hosting someone like you and creating a platform for you to tell a story. You know what I'm saying? Michelle: Yes, that's beautiful. Slade: Yeah and I can make a case that we're all storytellers and, I do tell some of my intuitive training students a lot that I think intuitives - storytellers make great intuitives. People who speak symbolic language have an ability to take that vocabulary into a lot of different vocations. So, again, not to get too much in the weeds about myself personally, but we're coming back to this idea that it's an essence that you already have and it's something that you can take into anywhere we drop you. Right? Like, ultimately if you're wiling to. Michelle: That's right. And I just want to circle back around with you because you also blog and you write and you've been doing this a long time and obviously these podcasts. So you have a gift with words and that writing and podcasting is just one way you're choosing to express that gift. You could choose to express that gift maybe in song writing, or maybe something that I haven't even thought of. Writing copy. You're just choosing to express your gift of a way with words in these platforms right now. Doesn't mean blogging suddenly is your Purpose. Slade: Right, yes. Exactly. And I have had periods where I was a song writer and I was a - I've done different kinds of artistic pursuits just like you were talking about. The difference between kind of your creativity and your passion and your art and then you can, you can or you can not choose to express that in combination with a Purpose or in combination with a job. I tell people all the time sometimes the greatest way to ruin your passion is to turn it into a business. Michelle: Yeah! Like my art! Exactly. Slade: So when I was thinking about the fact that I was going to be talking to you today and I thought, you know, this is an area of expertise for you, that you've gone even deeper in than I have, but I was trying to think of my listeners and kind of where they fall on this question. Because like I said, it's nearly always a component of any reading that I do. And I was trying to think of, how can I ask questions that the people listening would ask if they were sitting here in front of the microphone and I kind of identified - there's a few different people that are at different stages of asking themselves this question. So I wondered if you would indulge me and let me ask you kind of a question, there's kind of three different angles. And I wanted to ask for advice for each one of those people. Are you game for that? Michelle: I'm game! Slade: Okay! Michelle: Let's see where it goes! Slade: So, the first one is the person who has no clue what their Purpose is. They really feel like just the canvas is blank, and that's a very terrifying feeling. You know, the blank page and you don't, something's supposed to be written on there and you don't know what it is. So what do you say to that person who has no clue what their Purpose might be? Michelle: Yeah, great. So and this comes up a lot with the people I work with, who maybe their kids are now gone, or their job is over or they're retiring and they feel like, now what? But it can happen with people of all ages for a variety of reasons. And the first thing that I want to tell the listeners is really to reassure them that it really doesn't matter if you know your Purpose. It's like it doesn't matter if you can see the ocean. It's still there. Your Purpose is there. Now you may feel a little frustrated that you don't know what it is. You may feel disconnected to it. But it's there. It's inside of you. So I would encourage listeners who are in this space to just breathe in to the fact that they are alive on the planet, they have a Purpose even if they don't know what it is. And allow it. Allow the expression of their Purpose to be shown to them over some time. In my book it's a 28-day process of journalling and asking questions. But the first stage of that is to live with the affirmation that I am already living my Purpose. Slade: Okay. That's awesome. What do you say to the person who kind of already has a clue what it is, right? They know deep down in their heart what their Purpose is. They feel that calling but maybe they're in a state of fear or procrastination, you know, they're sitting in the cubicle at work and they're dissatisfied with what they're doing and they know what their heart wants to do or what they're being called to do in some way. What does she do next? How does she get started? Michelle: So first I would encourage not the DOING of it. And I would really encourage the BEING of it. Because I think what happens is we skip steps. We're like, 'Okay I know that I'm supposed to be out there speaking to the world.' Well speaking again is a doing. It's not a Purpose. So is the Purpose really that you would like to inspire people with the message? Is your Purpose that you feel like you're a leader, that you have a calling to change other people's lives through leading or through inspiration or - it's tricky because it's like you have a gift for speaking and that's the gift and that could be how your Purpose is done and expressed in the world but we gotta go first underneath that - what the BEING is. And so, I would encourage people who know deep inside that they're supposed to go speak, that comes up a lot with my clients. "I know I'm supposed to go speak." Be out there on stage. Be more visible. I'd encourage you first to tap into what is it that your call - what is it that calls that part of yourself? Are you feeling like you're here to lead? And then keep going into that energy and express it more and more in what you do right now. So if you are called to lead, do that in the job you have right now. Do that with your family. Do that as you move about the world. And as you're deepening that confidence in yourself, it's amazing how opportunities start opening up to allow you to do more of how you want to express that feeling in the world. Slade: Okay. These are good. I'm having some epiphanies around this stuff. So I've got one more. It's a little challenging. And I can actually think of a couple people that I know that are peers that are out there who might be listening, who - okay, what do you say to the person who knows what his Purpose is, maybe he's been doing it for awhile, who's been working at it, and then suddenly he's not seeing the "success" with it that he had expectations for? What's going on with that person, when they feel like they're, they know what they're supposed to do, but for some reason it's not taking off the way that they think, "Oh! It's my Purpose. I'm doing it, therefore the wings should just spread open and I should fly." What do you say to the person when that's not happening? Michelle: So, Purpose is being, and Purpose is not success-driven. So Purpose is back to how do you express your love in the world? How do you express yourself out into the world? If you were then taking that and let's just pretend that you're here to inspire other people and your chosen way to do that is to become a public speaker, then you have to learn the business of speaking, you have to learn the nuances, you have to understand how to book gigs, how to write contracts, you have to then go learn the pieces of running that business if that's choosing, if that's how you're going to choose to express your Purpose of inspiration out into the world. But again, and then I do business coaching as well, so I can speak to this. Your Purpose is how you're expressing in the world in all areas of your life and so if you're putting, 'OMG, my Purpose is all wrapped up in this business,' you're going to have heartache and downfall because business has natural ups and down cycles. And so you've got to come back and be grounded in who you are. I want to come back for a minute because I think there's a piece here that we've tiptoed around a little bit, Slade. And that is, people feel scared of their Purpose. Like if Slade, you know, think back ten or twelve years ago and if you suddenly knew that you were here to inspire people about Purpose and how they can become intuitive, you may not know, have known how to do that. All those years ago. And there might have been some fear for you. Slade: Oh yes. Michelle: And so... Right? It's all of us. And so if we can go into what is it that we are expressing and continue to do that every day we strengthen the muscle of accepting who we are. If someone were to tell me that I'd be on the telesummits with thousands of people and coaching some fairly well-known names out there, ten years ago, I would've been terrified. And go, 'No, I don't have those skills. That's not me. I don't have that confidence. I don't have that knowingness,' right? And so we start by giving ourselves either small steps or big steps, whatever it is, but confirmation that we're on the right track. Because that builds that muscle that gives us our own acceptance. I think when we don't accept the gifts that we were born with, it's really difficult to go be - feel successful, but feeling successful is a life, not just a business. It's how do we feel in our life? Do we feel fulfilled? So I think I want to come back around to - it's the feeling of being fulfilled that I think we chase, and money seems to represent that and business success represents that. But let's come back to how are we expressing, how are we ful - being fulfilled, how are we helping, how are we serving, and then maybe it's business coaching that this person really needs. Slade: Great advice. Thank you so much. So tell us about Spark. What is this? Michelle: So I think you know I've played a lot with this idea of Purpose, passion, fulfillment creativity, and the word that sums all of that up for me is Spark. And so I've created a system for helping us all keep that spark alive inside. I don't know how you feel, but you know we're just on the other side of another mass shooting here in the United States, we've had hurricanes, there's fires, there's wars all over the world. It feels like it's pretty difficult sometimes to stay grounded that we can even make a difference with all these world problems. And so, getting in touch with our own spark is the beginning of feeling alive and then feeling like we can help in whatever way that looks like to us. Big or small, helping the local food community, helping a stray cat, helping stop genocide and wars, wherever it is that you personally feel like you're called to help. It starts with connecting with that spark inside of us. Because when that flame starts dying out, it's really difficult to even just get off the couch, right? We become glued to the news, we get into overwhelm. So the system I've created are always different areas where we learn to connect in with our own spark so that we can express more fully our authentic selves. And, like I say in this book, Purpose book, which is the first step of the system, how can we not be authentic, right? We are authentic. We just don't always recognize what that is. And then we try to cover it up, or we have our baggage or we eat too much or we do all kinds of self sabotaging things because we don't really know who we are. And so this system takes us through some self-reflection. I'm not here to tell anybody who they are. It's all inside. We just have to uncover it. We have to recognize it. We have to love who we are, you know? It's that thing that we gotta love ourselves first. And it's true, but we have to learn who we are so that we can love ourselves. Slade: So the book part component of this that you're talking about, it's a new book you have out called Purpose: The Alignment Guide : 28 Days of Inspiration, Reflection, Intention and Creative Expression. Now this sounds more like a program than just a book. So explain to us how this book works. Michelle: Yeah, it is. It's 28 days. Each day, wel, each week there's an affirmation. The very first one is 'I am already living my Purpose.' And there's coloring exercises ,activities, writing prompts, and the book takes you through my thoughts about why I believe we're all already living our Purpose. Just a short chapter on that. And then it encourages you to reflect on how you are living your Purpose day to day. There are daily affirmations, daily questions, the book takes you through how does the earth energy affect you? I'm finding it very interesting right now with things like fires and hurricanes and so forth to not be affected by that, and I think a lot of us are affected by intense weather or even just a big snowstorm. And so, how does that affect your day to day living, and does that make you go more internal or does that cause you to be angry in the world? And just having a place to write down and explore these feelings helps you understand and learn more of who you really are. Who we are at the core. So the book is a 28-day exploration with writing prompts for every day. Journaling and loads of cool coloring pages and there's also a coloring book that you can download at no cost or purchase to go along with this with all the really cool images. And the images are a little edgy. They're not like flowers and butterflies. They're what I call kind of galactic images with weird eyes and the sun going sideways because I think that's how I feel right now. Like everything just a little big sideways. And so I want to acknowledge that and express that. And the Purpose is just the first workbook in a 9-month system. So there's 8 more books coming out, each one exactly the same format. So it's a 9-month program that I have on helping you connect back in with who you are. Slade: So why is it 28 days specificially? Michelle: Yeah, so there's a couple of answers to that. It is a nice system of every week you look at a new affirmation and in this case, a new area of Purpose. And then we all need a day or two or three to just rest. So it's not like a month-long system. You can start this in the middle of the month, you can start it in the middle of the week, you just work through the days and then you, at the end of the 28 days, it's a moon cycle, it's a natural cycle. You just rest, let it all integrate, allow your subconscious to process everything you've been thorough. It's like savassana in yoga. You just incorpirate everything that you have learned and thought about and doodled and processed over the last four weeks. And then after a few more days, you can start again on the next book. Day 1 and go through another 28-day process. Slade: Very cool. It actually would be fun to do that with the moon cycle if you wanted. I'm a bit of a witch so I like to do everything like ritualized around the moon calendar. It just, it gives it a certain kind of structure that feels, I don't know, it feels empowering, so I like to play with that. That's very cool. Michelle: Yes! Yeah! Slade: So, not to compare this to anything in any way other than a compliment, but I really, as I was looking at the material, it appealed to me in much the same way that the artist way appealed to me. I think that there's a certain type of person who may have done that years ago back in the day who would really be turned on by your book. Thank you! Thank you. I actually mention Julia Cameron in my dedication. She's a huge mentor of mine. I have interviewed her a couple of times. I've been to a live workshop of hers. I bow down to her as one of the creative goddesses of the world, so thank you, I take that as a huge compliment. Slade: Oh, that's very cool. We share her as a hero for sure. Yeah, so I definitely think that you can make a connection with the type of work that you're doing and so if there's anybody who - because I know once you've done something before, maybe you don't really want to go back through that process again, but this would be something new, and it's a little bit shifted of course, around this idea of aligning with Purpose, but the experiential part of it feels similar. In an exciting kind of way. Have you had any ideas about doing like a group around it? Like a Facebook group or something? Michelle: Yes! So - thank you for asking. Yes, and I have one going right now. So theSpark.love group on Facebook. You can come and join for free. No charge. There are people uploading their pictures and their doodling and I answer questions in there, and so thespark.love is also my website. That's the name of the group on Facebook. So just come join and then obviously I offer paid classes and I have a live retreat coming up in May, so obviously I'm doing this also as part of my own coaching business, but everybody come and join at least for free so we can get to know each other and I can help you through the process. And then if there's a next step, happy to talk to you about that. Slade: Oh that's very cool. I am a big believer in the social power of doing things in groups. If I have the opportunity to take something in a class environment I always go for that because I can accomplish so much more when I have interaction with other people around it. I'm a big believer in that so basically you're saying somebody can go and sign up for thespark.love Facebook group and the only thing that they would really require would be the book, which is not a huge investment, if they wanted to really participate in this and plug in with this whole concept, right? Michelle: That's right. $16.95 on Amazon, and nothing else. Just connect in the group because there's other people that are having conversations about Purpose and that's always a cool thing. Slade: Well I'll definitely pull all your links so anybody who is listeining can either go to my blog or they can go direclty to the podcast feed and just click on those. And go and sign up. You also have a free course that people can download on your webiste, correct? Michelle: I do. There's a Purpose course on my website, there's the coloring book, there's a couple of meditations. The website is again, thespark.love because it's how we express our spark as love out into the world. That's the biggest expression of who we are. And so, yes, I have all kinds of free gifts. I have a downloadable course. Come get your gifts, thank you! Thank you for this promotion, yeah. I'm so good at promoting other people but we're all like that, right? Thank you. Slade: Yeah, well there's some very specific places to jump and plug in to what you're doing and it doesn't cost anything other than your interest, you know? So it's a very powerful and easy thing to promote. I do want to ask you before we wrap up the conversation. One of the things that I really like to ask those of you who've been around working in this space, for several years now. Is there anything that you feel is a message that's kind of missing from the conversation on personal development or something that needs to be brought forward a little bit? Michelle: Yeah, good question. So I am so over self-improvement. Like, there was a time in my life when I'm like, I wanted to get my hands on everything around self-improvement and personal development. These days I think it's - the conversation at least that I like to have is, we don't have to improve anything. We can choose to explore our gifts and develop them if we want to. We can always learn more things. But it's really about what, uncovering what's already there. It's really about going inside rather than looking outside and the more I go deeper in this, the more I know that to be true for at least myself and many of the people I work with is, how can we really uncover who we are rather than looking outside for answers? And so, in this book, even though I'm here having this conversation with you, it all comes back to what is true for the individual, not what I'm saying, not what you're saying, not what my book says. These are all tools to help you explore more deeply what's true for you. Slade: I love that approach. Thank you for sharing that. And Michelle, thank you so much for coming on and taking the time and having a conversation with me around this topic. I know everybody's going to enjoy listening to it. Michelle: Slade, I love you. It's been an honor to connect with you over all these years and I'm looking forward to the next one. Thank you for having me. OUTRO Thanks again for listening to the Shift Your Spirits podcast. For show notes, links, transcripts and all the past episodes please visit shiftyourspirits.com You can subscribe in iTunes or Stitcher or whatever app you use to access podcasts. If you’d like to get an intuitive reading with me, or download a free ebook and meditation to help you connect with your guides please go to sladeroberson.com and if you’re interested in my professional intuitive training program, you can start the course for free by downloading the Attunement at automaticintuition.com BEFORE I GO I promised to leave you a message in answer to a question or a concern you may have. So take a moment to think about that — hold it in your mind or speak it out loud. I’ll pause for just a few seconds….right…now. 1…2…3…4 MESSAGE Have you seen or heard any owls lately? Any owl totems or symbols crossing your path. Owl energy is about the ability to see everything around you, to find the real truth in the shadows. This symbol can mean that someone around you is trying to throw you off or disguise his or her real intentions. Make sure you’re not lying to yourself right now. If you’re being delusional, wake up. Not facing the truth in one area of your life will block you from moving forward in any other area. Look into your darkness a little bit. That’s where you’ll find the way out. And I’ll talk to you later.

So how weird would it be to be a Brazilian in the United States and see for the first time a bicycle attached to the front of a city bus? Sure enough, that would never happen on a bus in Brazil. These are the kinds of observations that North Americans would never make because, well, we think it's normal. It's all a matter of perspective. This lesson talks about those kind of cultural differences, and we do so while going over a lesson about word order. (We know the title doesn't sound all that exciting, but it really is an interesting grammar topic -- if you are into language learning.) are people who put their bicycles in front of the buses. Valdo: Yes, here in the United State we have specific places in front of the buses to carry bicycles. Michelle: Yes and it give people a reason to carry their bicycles in front of the bus so that they can sit down. Valdo: That's true. Unexpected things always happen when riding a bicycle, for example: rain, hot sun, ladders. Michelle: In fact, some unexpected thing always comes up that makes you prefer the comfort of the air-conditioned bus. Valdo: Gee, that's what we're missing in Brazil to make our public transportation system the best.

asset title: Grammar Lesson 18: Word Order, Buses and Services filename: tafalado_gra_18.mp3 track number: 44/46 time: 10:56 size: 7.69 MB bitrate: 96 kbps So how weird would it be to be a Brazilian in the United States and see for the first time a bicycle attached to the front of a city bus? Sure enough, that would never happen on a bus in Brazil. These are the kinds of observations that North Americans would never make because, well, we think it's normal. It's all a matter of perspective. This lesson talks about those kind of cultural differences, and we do so while going over a lesson about word order. (We know the title doesn't sound all that exciting, but it really is an interesting grammar topic -- if you are into language learning.) DialogPortugueseMichelle: Eu acho interessante que existam pessoas que colocam suas bicicletas na frente dos ônibus.Valdo: Pois é, aqui nos Estados Unidos tem lugares específicos nos ônibus pra carregar bicicletas.Michelle: Eh, e sobram motivos aqui para as pessoas levarem suas bicicletas na frente dos ônibus e irem sentadas.Valdo: É verdade! Sempre acontecem coisas inesperadas quando se anda de bicicleta, por exemplo: chuva, o sol muito quente, ladeiras.Michelle: De fato, sempre surge algum imprevisto que nos faz preferir o conforto do ar condicionado dos ônibus.Valdo: Puxa, falta só esse serviço para o transporte público no Brasil ficar ótimo.SpanishMichelle: Yo creo que es interesante que existen personas que ponen su bicicleta en frente de los autobuses.Valdo: Sí, aquí en los Estados Unidos hay lugares específicos en los autobuses para llevar bicicletasMichelle: Sí y eso les dá el incentivo a las personas aquí para que lleven su bicicleta en frente del autobús para que se puedan sentar.Valdo: Es verdad. Siempre nos suceden cosas inesperadas al andar en bicicleta, por ejemplo: la lluvia, el sol muy fuerte, escaleras.Michelle: Además, siempre surge algo imprevisto que hace que se prefiera el confort del aire condicionado del autobús.Valdo: Caramba, nos falta ese servicio para el transporte público en Brasil para que sea excelente.EnglishMichelle: I think that it's interesting that there are people who put their bicycles in front of the buses.Valdo: Yes, here in the United State we have specific places in front of the buses to carry bicycles.Michelle: Yes and it give people a reason to carry their bicycles in front of the bus so that they can sit down.Valdo: That's true. Unexpected things always happen when riding a bicycle, for example: rain, hot sun, ladders.Michelle: In fact, some unexpected thing always comes up that makes you prefer the comfort of the air-conditioned bus.Valdo: Gee, that's what we're missing in Brazil to make our public transportation system the best.

asset title: Grammar Lesson 15: False Cognates, Driver's License filename: tafalado_gra_15.mp3 track number: 41/46 time: 10:50 size: 7.62 MB bitrate: 96 kbps No kidding, Orlando was in Mexico City one time and saw a man in Chapultepec Park who was selling helados esquisitos. Why would anyone want to buy 'weird' ice cream? Turns out, in Spanish esquisito means exquisite, and Mexicans actually like to have their helado esquisito! It's a positive thing. In Portuguese, esquisito means strange or weird. OK, that's what we mean by false cognates. Although many words between Spanish and Portuguese are similar, there are others that trick you because the meaning isn't what you expect.DialogPortugueseValdo: Você tirou sua carteira de motorista aqui no Texas?Michelle: Tirei sim. E logo comecei a dirigir pra todos os lugares.Valdo: Você não ficou surpresa ao saber que aqui se consegue a carteira aos 16 anos? Porque no Brasil só a partir dos 18. E o seu teste, você foi bem?Michelle: Você acredita que eu coloquei meu apelido no computador ao invés do meu nome e sobrenome?Valdo: Ah, é que você ainda estava grávida! Você não ficou embarassada em dirigir no dia do teste com aquele barrigão?Michelle: Claro que não! Eu até freqüentei a universidade grávida.SpanishValdo: ¿Sacaste tú la licencia de conducir aquí en Texas?Michelle: Sí, la saqué. Y después empecé a manejar por todos los lugares.Valdo: ¿No te sorprendiste al saber que aquí se consigue la licencia a los 16 años de edad? Porque en el Brasil sólo a partir de los 18. Y tu examen, ¿cómo saliste?Michelle: ¿Puedes creer que puse mi sobrenombre en la computadora en lugar de mi nombre y apellido?Valdo: Y todavía estabas embarazada! ¿No te avergonzaste en manejar el día del examen con esa barriga?Michelle: Claro que no! Yo también asistí a la universidad embarazada.EnglishValdo: Did you get your driver's license here in Texas?Michelle: Yes, I got it. And then I began to drive everywhere.Valdo: Weren't you surprised to find out that here one can get their driver's license at 16? Because in Brazil you have to be 18. And how about your test, how did it go?Michelle: Can you believe that I put my nickname on the computer instead of my first and last name?Valdo: Wow, and you were still pregnant! Weren't you embarrassed about driving for your test with that big stomach?Michelle: Of course not! I even attended the university while pregnant.

asset title: Grammar Lesson 14: Absence of Direct Object Pronouns, Mobile Homes filename: tafalado_gra_14.mp3 track number: 40/46 time: 10:24 size: 7.32 MB bitrate: 96 kbps OK, so you are driving down the freeway and you see a semi going 70 mph and there is a mobile home being pulled along. Well, yes, I do see why that would seem rather shocking to a Brazilian. Thanks go to Valdo and Michelle for making that observation. Grammar-wise, we are also going to talk about dropping direct object pronouns. Better to drop pronouns than mobile homes from semis!DialogPortugueseMichelle: Você viu aquele caminhão levando aquela casa inteirinha?Valdo: Vi sim. Que coisa, né?Michelle: Pois é, a primeira vez que vi tomei um susto. Você compraria aquela casa pra você?Valdo: Não, não compraria não. Prefiro a minha casa de concreto no Brasil que está bem presa ao chão. E você transportaria sua casa assim com tudo dentro?Michelle: Transportaria sim. Por que? Você não gosta desse sistema não?Valdo: Não gosto muito não. Como já te disse, prefiro minha casa bem presa ao chão.SpanishMichelle: ¿Viste tú aquel camión llevando aquella casa entera?Valdo: Sí lo vi. Qué cosa, ¿verdad?Michelle: Pues, la primera vez que lo vi, me asusté. ¿Comprarías tú aquella casa?Valdo: No, no la compraría. Prefiero que mi casa en Brasil sea de concreto y que esté bien fijada en el suelo. ¿Transportarías tú la casa así con todo adentro?Michelle: Sí, la transportaría. ¿Por qué? ¿A ti no te gusta el sistema?Valdo: No me gusta mucho. Como ya te dije, prefiero una casa que esté en el suelo.EnglishMichelle: Did you see that truck carrying that whole house?Valdo: I did see it. How weird, huh?Michelle: Yeah, the first time that I saw one it surprised me. Would you ever buy that house for you?Valdo: No, I wouldn't buy it. I prefer a concrete home in Brazil that is well attached to the ground. And would you transport your house like that with every thing in it?Michelle: Yes, I would transport it. Why? Don't you like the system here?Valdo: No, I don't like it a lot. As I already told you, I prefer my house to be stuck to the ground.

asset title: Lesson 18: Pronunciation of 'ch', You Call That a Steak House? filename: tafalado_18.mp3 track number: 19/46 time: 12:42 size: 4.47 MB bitrate: 48 kbps For the meat lovers of the world, we present the Brazilian-style 'churrascarias' and the 'rodízio' buffets. Get ready for over 30 different cuts of meat that will come by your table, and that doesn't include the salad bar either! Michelle is partial to 'coração de galinha' (chicken hearts). Valdo can't wait for the 'costelinha de carneiro' (rack of lamb). Orlando loves the popular 'picanha,' which he can't even say in English, but he knows it is his favorite.No wonder Valdo and Michelle think of American steak restaurants as snacks. Pronunciation is easy: 'ch' in Portuguese always sounds like 'sh.'DialogPortugueseValdo: Acho tão diferente as churrascarias nos Estados Unidos. É um pouco chato, o churrasco aqui parece um lanche.Michelle: Eh, no Brasil é bem mais chique. A gente chega e tem aquela mesa cheia de saladas, queijos, bebidas.Valdo: Sem falar que a gente enche a barriga, porque os garçons não dão chance da gente parar de comer. Lá eles capricham no rodízio, né?Michelle: É verdade. Toda hora eles chegam na nossa mesa, sem precisar chamar.Valdo: Fora que as churrascarias no Brasil são muito charmosas e aconchegantes.Michelle: Eh, dá vontade de ficar lá até fechar. O churrasco brasileiro realmente é de chupar os dedos!SpanishValdo: Veo muy diferente los asaderos en los Estados Unidos. Es un poco triste pero el asadero aquí parece una fonda.Michelle: Sí, en Brasil es mucho más chévere. Las personas llegan y toda la mesa está llena de ensaladas, quesos, y bebidas.Valdo: Desde luego las personas se llenan el estómago, porque los meseros no dan chance a la gente parar de comer. Allá ellos hacen un trabajo excepcional.Michelle: Es verdad. A toda hora ellos llegan a la mesa sin llamarles.Valdo: Además de eso, los asaderos en Brasil son hermosos y acojedores.Michelle: Sí, dan ganas de permanecer hasta que cierren. El asadero brasileño realmente es para chuparse los dedos.EnglishValdo: I think steak restaurants are really different here in the U.S. It's kind of boring, steak houses seem more like luncheonettes.Michelle: Yes, in Brazil it's a lot cooler. Everyone goes and there's that table full of salads, cheeses, and drinks.Valdo: And besides that, everyone fills up their stomachs because the waiters don't ever give you a chance to stop eating. They really take care of you at those restaurants, right?Michelle: That true. They keep coming to your table without having to be asked.Valdo: And besides that steak houses in Brazil are charming and inviting.Michelle: I know, it makes you want to stay until they close. Brazilian steak houses are finger-licking good!

For the meat lovers of the world, we present the Brazilian-style 'churrascarias' and the 'rodízio' buffets. Get ready for over 30 different cuts of meat that will come by your table, and that doesn't include the salad bar either! Michelle is partial to 'coração de galinha' (chicken hearts). Valdo can't wait for the 'costelinha de carneiro' (rack of lamb). Orlando loves the popular 'picanha,' which he can't even say in English, but he knows it is his favorite. No wonder Valdo and Michelle think of American steak restaurants as snacks. Pronunciation is easy: 'ch' in Portuguese always sounds like 'sh.'f boring, steak houses seem more like luncheonettes. Michelle: Yes, in Brazil it's a lot cooler. Everyone goes and there's that table full of salads, cheeses, and drinks. Valdo: And besides that, everyone fills up their stomachs because the waiters don't ever give you a chance to stop eating. They really take care of you at those restaurants, right? Michelle: That true. They keep coming to your table without having to be asked. Valdo: And besides that steak houses in Brazil are charming and inviting. Michelle: I know, it makes you want to stay until they close. Brazilian steak houses are finger-licking good!

asset title: Lesson 17: Pronunciation of 'j', 'ge', and 'gi', Wearing That Tiny Bikini filename: tafalado_17.mp3 track number: 18/46 time: 15:02 size: 5.29 MB bitrate: 48 kbps From a North American perspective, the Brazilians have very skimpy swimming suits. However, from Valdo and Michelle's perspective, North American swimsuits are 'gigantes', 'enormes.' In the end, as Michelle explains, 'não importo, vou continuar com o meu biquini do Brasil' (I don't care, I'm going to keep on using my Brazilian bikini). As to pronunciation, did Orlando really say that he wanted to name his daughter 'Janela' (window)? Good thing he didn't!DialogPortugueseMichelle: Gente! Veja aquele cara com aquela sunga laranja gigantesca e aquela mulher com aquele biquini bege enorme!Valdo: Aquilo não é sunga de jeito nenhum. Imagina... aquilo lá é uma bermuda.Michelle: Você já reparou que aqui geralmente o tamanho das roupas é bem maior que lá no Brasil?Valdo: Lógico... principalmente nesses meses de junho e julho que as pessoas vão pra piscina, tomam uma cerveja gelada e observam umas às outras em trajes de banho.Michelle: Eh, mas isso é uma coisa mais generalizada, porque as roupas em geral, inclusive as íntimas, são gigantes aqui. Mas não me importo... vou continuar com o meu biquini do Brasil.Valdo: Então tá jóia! Michelle, dê uma giradinha aí pra todo mundo ver e eu também vou desfilar com a minha sunga.SpanishMichelle: Mira, ve aquel hombre con el traje de baño anaranjado gigante y aquella mujer en el bikini beige enorme.Valdo: Aquello no es un traje de baño para nada. Imagínate, eso es una bermuda.Michelle: ¿Ya ves que aquí generalmente el tamaño de la ropa es mucho más grande que en Brasil?Valdo: Lógico... principalmente durante los meses de junio y julio cuando la gente va a la piscina, toman una cerveza helada y se miran en trajes de baño.Michelle: Sí, pero eso es una cosa generalizada, porque las ropas en general, inclusive la ropa íntima, son gigantes aquí. Pero no me importa, voy a continuar con mi bikini de Brasil.Valdo: Entonces está bien. Michelle, modélame para poder verte y yo también modelo el traje de baño mío.EnglishMichelle: Oh my! Look at that guy with the gigantic orange swimsuit and that woman with the enormous beige bikini!Valdo: That's not a swimsuit, no way. Really... that thing there is Bermuda shorts.Michelle: Have you noticed that here generally the size of clothes is a lot bigger than in Brazil?Valdo: Right... especially during the months of June and July when people go to the pool, have a cold beer, and watch one another in their bathing suits.Michelle: Yes, but this generally applies to most things because most clothes, even underwear, are gigantic here. But I don't care, I going to keep on using my Brazilian bikini.Valdo: All right then! Michelle, turn around so that we can all see and I'll also show off my speedo.