Podcasts about michelle so

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome Kerry Hinds @fertilebodyyoga, founder of Fertile Body Yoga, who shares her inspiring fertility journey and how yoga became an essential part of her path to motherhood. Kerry opens up about her struggles with infertility, navigating IVF abroad, and ultimately conceiving naturally after stepping away from treatments. She also discusses the benefits of fertility yoga for calming the nervous system, enhancing blood flow, and creating a supportive environment for conception. In this episode, you'll learn how yoga can help balance your nervous system, why feeling safe is essential for fertility, and practical ways to integrate fertility yoga into your daily routine. This heartfelt conversation is filled with wisdom, hope, and practical tips for anyone on their fertility journey. Key Takeaways:  Kerry's personal fertility journey and challenges with IVF The pivotal moment when she conceived naturally after stepping away from treatments How fertility yoga supports the nervous system and reproductive health The importance of feeling safe and creating space within the body Practical tips on incorporating breathwork, movement, and mindfulness for fertility Guest Bio: Kerry Hinds @fertilebodyyoga is a certified E-RYT, RPYT, Relax and Renew® teacher, fertility yoga instructor, and Reiki practitioner. She founded Fertile Body Yoga to support individuals on their fertility journeys. Drawing from her personal experiences with fertility challenges, including undergoing treatments and experiencing pregnancy loss, Kerry offers compassionate guidance to her students. She leads weekly fertility yoga classes and provides various mind-body support programs through the Fertile Body Yoga Virtual Studio. Kerry is also the host of the "Fringe Fertility" podcast, where she explores holistic and alternative approaches to enhancing fertility. Websites/Social Media Links: Learn more about Kerry HindsFollow Kerry Hinds on Instagram Listen to her podcast: The Fringe Fertility For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ ---------------- Transcript: # TWF: Kerry Hinds [00:00:00] Episode number 329 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. My guest today is Carrie Hines. Carrie is the owner and founder of Fertile Body Yoga, a virtual yoga studio that is dedicated to supporting women navigating their fertility journey. She offers both live stream and on demand fertility yoga classes. and small group programs that embrace the complete journey physically, mentally, emotionally, energetically, spiritually, and socially. Carrie has been teaching yoga for over 20 years and has been specializing, teaching, and training almost solely fertility yoga for eight years. Her classes and offerings are informed by her own experiences with pregnancy loss, years of IVF, and eventually completing her family with two children. Carrie has supported thousands of women on their fertility journey so far and is on a mission to help women conceive and birth with yoga and community. Carrie also [00:01:00] hosts Fringe Fertility, a podcast that highlights supportive fertility practices beyond the doctor's office. **Michelle:** Welcome to the podcast. Carrie. I'm so happy to have you. **Kerry:** Thanks for having me, Michelle. I'm so happy to be here and spend some time with you today. **Michelle:** Yes. I would love for you to share your story first of all I love fertility yoga. I always suggest for my patients and my clients to do it It's something that I've personally myself have been really transformed by yoga in general. Many different types of yoga, a huge believer in it. And I also think that it's a, I call it an intelligent exercise. It's something that's been around for thousands of years and [00:02:00] really is a medicine in its own. So I would love for you to share your story and how you personally went through your own journey, but also how you combine fertility with yoga. **Kerry:** Okay. Yeah. I'll try and be a little bit concise cause I could go on and on for the, for a long time about this topic. But you know, as many listeners out there, you know, I didn't really start thinking about having kids till I was in my mid thirties. I took me a while to find the person I wanted to share my DNA with. Right. So when I did, we got married we moved to Germany and We went to Germany with the intention of this would be a good time for me to have kids. He's going to do his PhD. Germany has so many great social supports for families and so on. So we're like, Oh, it's just skim the cream off the top of that social system. And so when we got there, as often [00:03:00] happens, things don't go as planned when it comes to fertility. So we rolled into IUI. So we tried for six months, we found a clinic and. You know, we lived in old Eastern Germany, so it was hard to find English speaking doctors. So it was a very interesting time of my life. Not only was it just stressful in general dealing with what's going on and is this ever going to happen to living in another culture, another country? I didn't have a ton of support around, but then trying to navigate a new language that I was not fluent in. at all. So, I, you know, had one amazing friend there who spoke fluent, fluent German, American woman. And she's like,I will help you. And she went into those appointments with me, **Michelle:** oh **Kerry:** did all the **Michelle:** What a great friend **Kerry:** I know, I know. It was so amazing because I was so [00:04:00] lost at that time trying to figure out, like, just what's going on, but then how to say it in a different language or understand it in a different language. So for anybody who's doing this, fertility journey overseas or is here in North America It's not your mother tongue English, and you're trying to figure it out, I see you, I understand how this can add an extra level of stress to it. So we. You know, during that time, I actually went and did a yoga teacher training cause I was like, this isn't working. I want to do something for myself. So let's go get a yoga teacher training. I'd actually been teaching yoga for years before this was, so I've been teaching yoga for 20 years far before, This, you know, all these 200 hour yoga teacher trainings that, you know, you can sign up for one. No problem now. But back then it was your teacher [00:05:00] tapped you on the shoulder and said, Hey, do you want to be like, let's do this. And so that's kind of how I started yoga. But then when I was in Germany, I was like, okay, I need to, let's make this legit, right? Let's go get the training. I love it. I was teaching in Germany and so on. So that was sort of the, the main integration of the yoga into the fertility journey was just taking that bigger step to get the certification. And then, yeah, we went, we did IUIs. The first IUI was successful in that I got pregnant and, you know, 10 week ultrasound, there was no heartbeat. So we lost that baby. Yeah, and it was again, different culture, different bedside manners, different, it was just so stark. That's the word I could use for it. Shocking. It was just like, okay. The baby has no heartbeat. We're booking you in tomorrow for a DNC. Be there at 6 a. m. [00:06:00] You know, there was no time to, to, to absorb what was, to breathe, to figure out what I wanted. it was just like this snowball that was just like, okay, this has happened. You're going to do this. You're going to be better than you're going to start again. And you're going to keep trying and trying. So that's a whole other rabbit hole we could go down. But yeah, it was, it was a lot. It was a lot. And so we ended up going to do IVF, and this was, you know, 15 years ago. So things were maybe a little different than they are now. LikeICSI was just sort of a, more of a thing, right? It's Ooh, we're going to do this new cool thing. ICSI. I was like, okay. And they're like, and then there's embryo glue and we'll glue your embryo to your uterus. And it was all cutting edge at this time. And We did it. We did many cycles frozen cycles fresh cycles. Yeah, so many cycles and [00:07:00] nothing stuck, right? We had been doing IVF for two years and we kind of just paused and said, Is this, do we want to keep doing this?is this how we envision our life to be? And we wanted kids for sure, but we also wanted to start living our lives again. So that was a very pivotal moment in our journey is when we stepped away from IVF. We said, okay, we're done. I had gained weight. I wasn't feeling like myself. My body was weirdly puffy in different places and just, I was unhappy and I was emotional and I was just like, let's. Let's, let's walk away. And I remember my fertility doctor at the time, he said, you know, your chances of getting pregnant naturally are like one in a hundred million. Like you shouldn't be walking away from IVF. And I was like, you know, I'm okay. Like [00:08:00] I just, I need a break. And I walked away and a month and a half later I was pregnant. **Michelle:** Wow **Kerry:** intervention. And then nine months postpartum, I also was pregnant again by accident because we thought we had our miracle baby, right? So we were like, okay, whatever. And then I was pregnant again and through the whole journey, I was using yoga for my body, but more so for my energetic health, my mental, emotional health. So when we ended up coming back to the U S and moving to Boston, that was one of the first things I did. I did a prenatal yoga teacher training and I said, Hey, can we do fertility yoga? And she's like,I don't, I'm sure. I have no idea what it is. Tell me what it is. I'm like, either do I, but I'll get back to you. And that's sort of how the fertility yoga started. And [00:09:00] nobody was really doing it eight years ago. It was, **Michelle:** It's true **Kerry:** Like, there was nothing. There was a few people, there was a couple books out on it but I really spent a lot of time explaining. what it was that we were trying to do when we were doing like a fertility focused yoga practice. So that's kind of the story. That's the evolution. **Michelle:** Well, I love the story. I don't love that you went through the suffering through the story But I love the fact that you can it Prove with your story that when people tell you when you hear from doctors that you have one in a million chance or whatever that is, that is not necessarily the truth. That is their opinion. They say it very factually, and I think that that's where it gets very confusing for people. They say it very factually, and I'm not dismissing what doctors say because a lot of times it could be very accurate or they can, but I, I, what I don't love is Is when things are predicted because the body can be [00:10:00] so unpredictable. And it can also show so many signs that defy what it's going to do. So that's where, you know, I say just have an open mind or getting a second opinion is great. So, but I do love hearing those stories because I think when people who are going through that now and are probably listening to fertility podcasts because they want to get. Answers and hear other people's stories and when they hear stories like that it sparks some hope in their hearts So I think that that's really important **Kerry:** Yeah, I often get Students they'll ask me well what was it like right because this is what we want This is people don't want to do IVF if they don't have to and they're like, what was it? what happened and I was like, I cannot tell you I can't tell you a hundred percent that it was the yoga that I was doing or you know All the other lifestyle changes I was doing but something came [00:11:00] together You magically all together at the right time and this baby happened and if I had to choose one word for it, it would be exhale because there was this feeling that my body was no longer having to perform like it felt safe because I wasn't going in for you know, all these procedures and like they're. You know, minimally invasive, but you're still like vaginal ultrasounds and people poking around down there and all the operations that come with it. Anesthesia, all those sorts of things. And yeah, it's, it's a lot. So my body was like, whew, thank you. Thank you. Let me just be. And I think the mental piece was just like that. I wasn't going to go back to it. At least anytime soon. So my, my body was actually believing [00:12:00] me, right? And I don't think it's It's something that you can fake. It's not a time, like I had to go through those two years of IVF and pregnancy loss to get to that point. I don't think that there's we can't just kind of skip over it and be like, Oh, I'm just going to think this now and I'm going to get pregnant naturally. So it's a process. That's it. you know, everybody's journey is different and we just need to give ourselves a little bit of space sometimes to integrate what's going on and give our bodies that exhale, which is so important. Mm. **Michelle:** I love that you say that because actually exhaling longer can simulate your, parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest mode, which many times the majority of us in response to life are in the fight or flight mode. And especially when we feel unsafe. And I love that you use the word safe because when we feel unsafe, Then [00:13:00] we're really not in a creative mode. We don't create even like mentally when we're not feeling safe. **Kerry:** Yeah. **Michelle:** When we feel safe, we're able to create, we're able to let go and our body's able to create, and that's a, it's a state of growth. So I love that you talk about that. And I think that one of the commonalities between yoga and acupuncture, which actually they're related in  many ways. And because it's really about moving the energy because yoga is connected to Ayurveda. Ayurveda has Marma points and yoga is actually a branch of Ayurveda. it's part of the medicine of the physicality of the body and moving the energy. **Kerry:** Yep. **Michelle:** Qigong is sort of the yoga of Chinese medicine. So it's very related. And I think one of the biggest commonalities or one of the ways I think it really works is it's all about the nervous system. **Kerry:** 100 percent it, the nervous system. Like when I, [00:14:00] even these days I, when I'm talking to somebody, I'm like, I'm talking to a person. Yes. But I'm interacting with a nervous system. So with the words that I'm saying my body language or how I look at them, right? Like it, it all is interacting with third nervous system. So how are we working with nervous systems? And when we show up, in fertility world supporting people. For me, the huge part of fertility yoga is how do we harness this parasympathetic, I call it rest, digest and reproduce. That's what I call it, just  **Michelle:** Yeah. I love that. Yes. **Kerry:** Because what it is, it **Michelle:** Yup. **Kerry:** It's what yoga is so good at, sadly, right? Like our Western culture view of yoga has been a little focused almost exclusively on exercise and gymnastic style yoga. But [00:15:00] really traditionally, like you said, it was about the marma. It was about the energetic lines running through you and wherever you find that imbalance, you can work with the energetic field to create balance again. And as you know, the Marma points and acupuncture and pressure points are like following very similar lines and it's powerful. But it's subtle, right?  **Michelle:** Right. it's **Kerry:** explain. Yeah, like it's hard to explain exactly what's happening but it is, it's so powerful and it can really be transformative for how we, how we navigate the journey as embracing that, the quiet side, the quiet side of things. **Michelle:** Yes. And I think that the way we connect with it is through feeling. Right. Because that is ultimately how we do it, but we can't feel or pay attention to what we're feeling when we're distracted all the time by the noise of the world. So we're constantly disrupted by the [00:16:00] noise. It's very disrupting actually for our nervous system. We don't realize it because we're so used to it. You could be used to things that are really not healthy for you and listen, you know, hearing the outside noise. And the loud noises of construction, you know, the normal life, if you're living in the city, the constant sirens and honking, and, you know, those things are actually very taxing on the nervous system. And they put us in a fight or flight mode because our bodies don't really recognize them isn't in the natural world. So it stimulates a more fight and flight response. So having that counter balance with practices like yoga. In calming the nervous system. And what I love about yoga is that it includes breath, all the things that really stimulate the vagus nerve mantra sound. So you're able to tune your vibration and breath. Which is also very calming because if you exhale longer, like there's certain controlled breath [00:17:00] where you're able to control your brain through breath and even movement, somatic energy work and emotions that we can at least much more easily, like that control, but manage with our  bodies.  **Kerry:** Yeah. I couldn't say it better myself, Michelle. That was perfect. I think one thing, right, like we, we, we know that the fertility journey is stressful. We know that life is stressful. We know that we're probably living in a heightened state in our sympathetic more than we, we would like to. And yeah, the yoga piece can just. hit so many things. And one thing we need to remember is that we are created like evolutionarily are, you know, we are more attuned to the stresses, right? For survival. So the loud, the loud noises, it [00:18:00] alerts us to look around and see, Oh, is there something coming for me? Or the bright lights and things like that. Like we're just constantly Like our bodies are looking out to keep us safe all the time. And we're tuned to that, right, that our bodies are naturally tuned to go in that direction. And there's way more stimuli that will take us that way. And then with the other side, the parasympathetic, we have to work harder and more intentionally to go there. And I think that is one of the things that is the hardest is you actually need to train the system to be more fluid. It's not the stress isn't going to go away. Stress isn't going to go away, but if you are training your nervous system to float more evenly back and forth between the two and taking the time to go parasympathetic as best that you can, whether it's with the breath or [00:19:00] with yoga or going for a walk in nature or anything like that You're rebalancing, but we have to make more effort that is just the way we're, we're built. And yeah, like things that will help us be calmer are like dim lights, quietude, support. So like lying down flat. So our body doesn't have to be alert, like even sitting, we have to be alert.  So we might not fall over weight. Unless you're claustrophobic, of course so yeah, there's lots of things that we can add, and yoga does that. Restorative yoga, which is a huge piece of how I teach fertility yoga it, that is what it does. those are the things that we're embracing when we do restorative yoga.  **Michelle:** I love restorative yoga. **Kerry:** Me too.  **Michelle:** Oh, it feels so good. It really just feels so good. And you know what? I love to. I remember taking a yoga class and the teacher after we're laying in Shavasana said, allow the ground to support [00:20:00] you. And I'm like, just the thought of that changes. My experience laying down right now **Kerry:** Yes. Yes I say that too in my yoga classes or I'm like the earth is coming up to hold you and you Let the earth hold you like it's like a two way street. It's like here I am I'm here, but you need to let go into it too. Yeah, it, there's so many wonderful things about restorative yoga. I mean, it's not the only part of fertility yoga the way I teach it, but it is definitely a huge part of what I like to emphasize to help train the nervous system that like,  Oh, Oh, I remember this place of calm and safety, right? And then if we can condition it with at the beginning of every Shavasana or every restorative yoga pose, you do three big, deep breaths, long exhales. The body then starts to put it all together. and [00:21:00] say, Oh, when she takes three big, long, deep breaths, it's time to relax. It's time to release and let go. So we can, there's so much we could do to support ourselves on that level, I think. But yeah, society makes it hard. **Michelle:** Right, so it's almost like a triggering relaxation response To something that you repeat over and over again I always say likeif you do meditation and you burn a specific incense That's clean or something that I'm even in the central oil Like diffuse a specific one every single time you start to meditate you're immediately going to It's almost like pavlov's dog. You're always going to associate it with meditation time and our scent brings us Right there because it's so connected our olfactory nerve, which is really responsible for our sense of smell Is connected to our brains directly **Kerry:** Yeah. And certain smells will be more grounding and, you know, so choose your smells. wisely, I would say, you know, where like,citrus [00:22:00] and high notes are a little bit more stimulating where like the deeper tones like sandalwood and like the earthy green trees, those sorts of things can just be really calming. And then plus the volatile oils that are in evergreen trees are calming to the nervous system. **Michelle:** Yeah. It's not amazing. **Kerry:** You know, so why not put those in your diffuser like use all the tools that you can and and and then things smell good **Michelle:** Yeah.  **Kerry:** like  I just  **Michelle:** who doesn't like that? **Kerry:** Yeah Yeah, **Michelle:** That's awesome. So just take people through, likeif they've never really heard of fertility yoga, like what differentiates fertility yoga from regular yoga  or other types of yoga? **Kerry:** Whoo. So the first I would say are the people that are in the class so it is just really dedicated to holding space for those that are trying to conceive and it can be anybody from, Oh, I'm just [00:23:00] thinking about it, but I, my periods have been a little weird all my life. I just want to get in tune with my body to those who have, you know, eighth round of IVF, like really deep into the journey. So I think the community piece is really important because, People like to be seen and understood. And when we do a check in at the beginning of our classes, even though it's online and there's all these little squares and so on on the Zoom room, people, you see people nodding and oh, and like sending hearts and doing all the things. And just creating community around that as opposed to if you went to a regular yoga class and you walked up to your teacher and said, Oh, by the way, I'm doing a stim cycle right now. They're not going to know what to do with you. They're not going to know how to keep you safe, nor are they going to know how to nurture that part of the cycle. So that's the 2nd piece is. Becoming or recognizing [00:24:00] where you are in your cycle and then matching the energies of that time. So follicular phase is a little more. Woo woo, woo hoo, right? Springtime, and follicles are growing, you have more energy because of the hormones, and an ovulation, you're just like the queen bee, right? So these are the energies that we would say, okay, if you're in the follicular phase, you're gonna do this twist, and so on, and blah blah blah. And then you would say, okay, oh, you're in the luteal phase, things are a little quieter, You might be pregnant, you're in the two week wait, you're post transfer, you're stimming, like all these things, then we need to be a little quieter with the body and give the pelvic area a little bit more space. So we would work with that and do some modifications for that. So really following the cycle. So when I'm teaching, I'm constantly, Okay, if you're in the follicular phase, you're going to do this. If you're in the luteal phase, you're going to [00:25:00] do this. So not only am I keeping people safe, but I'm also like finding the nourishing pieces as well. So it's like,I'm boosting that energy and keeping you safe where you wouldn't be able to do that in a regular class. And then the movement piece. Is really just like slow flow, somatic movement, a lot of it's pelvic centered, but not always because we hold tension and all different places in our body, the chakra system, the energetic system, right? We want it flowing as well as possible for many reasons. So it's lots of ooey gooey, juicy sort of moves in and around the pelvis. So what else did I forget? Oh, and of course the yoga wisdom part of it, right? The energetics, the, the wisdom. So I teach, I'm very thematic when I teach. So I will choose a theme and it may [00:26:00] come from yoga. For example, I did a class or I'm doing a series right now. We're doing an elemental series. So it's five weeks. Perfect. Five elements. Let's do this in yoga anyway, or in Ayurveda. So I'm like, we started with earth, like, why is earth, why is grounding important in fertility, then water and fire and so on. So, yeah, just bringing a new perspective into it, like something to be like, oh, okay, I get it. I get that, I need to be grounded and feel safe for fertility to I don't want to say be boosted, but to be, to feel safe, your body, or to be working at full capacity, whatever is happening in your body, your body needs to feel safe for the fertility hormones. Whew.  **Michelle:** I'm sure there's a lot more even that you might not even realize it, you know, because when we feel safe, I [00:27:00] mean, there's so many things that our bodies naturally do. And our bodies are so intelligent. And it puts us into a growth cycle in general, like our bodies are able to regenerate and repair when it feels like it's getting rest, the proper rest. So, also uh, something that I've noticed, and I do have some patients, it's really interesting because it kind of correlates with jaw tension, but it usually correlates with hip tension. **Kerry:** Hip and pelvic floor, probably. Yeah. **Michelle:** And so that's something that I always think about with fertility yoga is really kind of like getting that area more free because it correlates to the first and second chakra. And the first chakra is really that rooted chakra, the place that we feel safe, and that holds up the second chakra, which is really where our fertility is. So in order to have that active, you know, it depends on that foundation of safety. **Kerry:** Yeah. **Michelle:** So also the blood flow, I'm [00:28:00] sure. **Kerry:** Oh, yeah. Yeah. See, there's so much. I like so many things. But yeah, so that somatic slow flow movement that's pelvic centered, of course, it's like, it's energetic, like bringing energy in and like moving energy, which is really important when we're in our lifestyle of sitting stagnant a lot of the time. And yeah, the blood flow, Like this gentle squeeze and release, right? Like it's constantly bringing in new oxygenated blood into the organs of the pelvis. And I think often in yoga, we don't think, we don't think about the organ level. when we're moving our bodies. And that's what I love about the Ayurvedic yoga. It's more okay, this is happening in your body. let's look at the liver, right? So you're doing side bends and the liver and the spleen and just incorporating more of those, organs, like the systems of the body. It's not just about. the [00:29:00] large muscle groups and releasing tension, which feels great and is lovely and good for energy and marma points and things like that. But we can also work at the organ level and the hormonal level. **Michelle:** Yeah, for sure. And do you also include pranayama? Yeah. **Kerry:** I do breath work. I don't do we're going to do half an hour pranayama every time, but I will integrate breath work or pranayama techniques. When they're suited for the theme or what we're doing with our bodies, sometimes mudra as well. So like, let's, Which is our hand gesture. Yeah. It's like a seal. **Michelle:** again, see, it relates to the meridians and the energetic connections in the body. It's like our body's like a circuit. So putting our fingers together in certain positions will actually link that circuit and, and have it continue. **Kerry:** Yeah, yeah, and [00:30:00] I was never really into mudras  for quite a while of my yoga journey like I was like Oh, yeah, let's I'm gonna stick my fingers together do whatever all the things that you know Yeah, mudra and so on that you see all the time and then someone actually sat down and we we I learned and I experimented with like slowly touching your fingers together and then like you know, do you want to increase something or decrease something, et cetera. And it was actually very profound.  And that energetic piece, I believe it, and it's now Ayurveda as well. And in yoga, energy is the thing that connects. The element that connects body and mind. Right. We're always talking about body and mind, but what is it that's, that's going on to connect those two? It's the energetic body. And pretty soon I am hoping western science will get on [00:31:00] board. It slowly **Michelle:** It is. It's really fascinating. I mean, that's a lot of Dr. Joe dispenses. He's always talking about like energy frequencies, and he talks about how we can connect and he does a lot of scientific research on it actually. So he looks at the brain waves and how they respond to certain meditations and certain energy movements. He does also breath a specific breath. And a lot of people have Kundalini awakenings. That's what it, I mean, he doesn't call it that. He talks about it more scientific and he talks about chakras. He doesn't call it chakras. He calls it energy centers. And it's basically the same thing that we've been, you know, we've been taught years ago, thousands of years ago. And ultimately, I mean, people are having Kundalini rising. They, they see this light, they feel this incredible energy just shooting through their spine from the base. It opens up cause that's where the Kundalini of people haven't really learned about that. They say that there's this [00:32:00] dormant energy at the root of your spine. That's always there, but it's sleeping. And so sometimes  doing. Yep. And when we do breath work or certain types of exercises, it can actually awaken that when that awakens, a lot of people have spontaneous healing, spontaneous remission, and it's really fascinating. So his work is also very much based on quantum physics. And if you look at a lot of the old work and teachings of ancient cultures. They describe pretty much what we're learning as quantum physics. And it ultimately comes down to the fact that we are mostly energy and much, much, much, much less matter than we really think we are. We're like 0. 0000001. It's like a million tons of zeros. And then one, that's how our matter is. And if we actually Take it like the space actually is way more in between the [00:33:00] particles in our bodies and just what we  see. So it's kind of like an illusion. It's really fascinating. So we really are vibratory beings, which is why vibration sound really impacts our bodies. I can nerd. I  **Kerry:** I, I'm going to go, I'm going  to,  **Michelle:** all day long. **Kerry:** I know me too. Well, I, well, there's two things I wanted to talk about, but first I want to talk about space and spaciousness, openness. And I often say to my students, like magic happens in the space. So when we think about the body, We need space in our body, openness, spaciousness, for our body to function, right? between the synapses, there's a little gap, right? It's tiny,  but it's there. And that we have, we need to have space, the womb, let's not forget, that is space. openness, spaciousness, [00:34:00] right? we have to have space in our digestive track and air and things like that to keep it moving. And now I'm like going off the deep end and also Ayurveda of course, right? anything that is moving in our body is the air and ether element and ether is spaciousness, it's openness. And so I often emphasize this idea you in class of creating space. When we move our pelvis, we're creating space. We're opening up, we're releasing blocked energy, if you will, or like stagnant blood, like we are getting things moving. And when things are moving, the magic happens, right? Like the space, we need that spaciousness. Oh yeah. I  **Michelle:** that.  **Kerry:** Yeah. The **Michelle:** Well, it's, it's so cool. I mean, cause, cause that's one of the things that Joe Dispenza does is he first, he almost puts you in an induction with his [00:35:00] meditations and he says space, and he wants you to focus on like this endless space. But the reason why is there's a rhyme. There's a reason for everything that he does is that when our minds focus on space, it actually creates. I don't know how to how he described it. Actually. I mean, I go to so many of his stuff, but I don't remember everything but he said that when you do that, I think it takes you almost to a different mind. Mental frequency brainwave when you start to focus on space. **Kerry:** Well, so Yoga Nidra, which we had talked about previously, but Yoga Nidra, which is like a 5, 000 year old technique that the yogis came up with it is about, it is about that. It is about slowing down your brainwave to delta wave, which is what your brainwaves would be like if you were in deep sleep. And why do we love deep sleep so much? Because that's when we heal, that's when we [00:36:00] process and calibrate and so on. Our organs are doing their cleaning up and all that and it's so important and it's definitely related to fertility that deep sleep state. And Yeah, with Yoga Nidra, we're purposefully going there, but being conscious when we're there. So it's an experience that we would never do. We would never get to that state on our, on our own naturally. Like we'd either be in deep sleep or we wouldn't be in Delta. So this is what I love about Yoga Nidra. And like you were saying, just even the concept of thinking about. Space or expansiveness or you know, you're in an airplane, you look out the window and all you see is infinite space. it never ends. It just goes on and on and on. Right. But yeah, it does, slow us down. It slows down the brainwave so we can get out of the, the gamma or the, you know what we're in right now [00:37:00] talking. **Michelle:** Yes. And it also gives you a sense of freedom. You just feel this like sense of peace and freedom from that space. Cause then you're like, ah, you know, there's just so much, and there's so many possibilities and it's open. And so for people actually who have not heard of yoga, Nidra, can you explain what it is exactly? **Kerry:** Okay. So yoga nidra, like I said, it's thousands of years old. It has so many benefits. I mean, it's so many like deep healing, but also like physical deep healing, but also mental emotional. So it takes, you know, sort of these deeply ingrained, maybe even ancestral patterns that we have, we can start to change those patterns. The body can process all of those things. It's so, it's. It's, it's the Soma we say in yoga, it's the sweet nectar. [00:38:00] It's the nectar that we want for our bodies, especially during fertility, but also to for overall health and longevity. We want to have that sweetness and that nectar in us. And what I use it for, I do a ton of Yoga Nidra in classes. It is It is a progressive deep relaxation technique. It that it has been, Huberman has taken it and called it non sleep deep rest because it's more palpable to Western mind. So it's been an eye rest and all these things. So it's yoga nidra has been taken and repackaged in many different ways for our Western minds. I love the traditional one. Of course, I'm sure you probably do too. And. Yeah, you just, you go  ## Marker **Kerry:** progressively to put your body to sleep. So you go through body parts and you relax those body parts and we can, instill or implant a message. [00:39:00] We call it sankalpa, but you can call it whatever you want. Affirmation, it's not quite the right word. Intention maybe of what deep healing you want to happen. And that's sort of implanted throughout the deep relaxation part. And then yoga nidra is actually a state. It's not the progress of getting there. So yoga nidra is when you are, your body's asleep, you're conscious. But your brain is in these sort of Delta waves and sometimes you get there, sometimes you don't, and sometimes the journey is joyful to, to get there too, right? So it's not oh, you have to get to that state to get any benefit. You're still getting all that parasympathetic work going on. The body feels safe and protected. And most people feel very blissful. afterwards, they often say, Oh, it's like hypnotic that there's like this [00:40:00] hypnosis. And my voice too, I think it's like low and like kind of slow and steady. They're like, Oh, I just hear your voice and I start to relax. Right. So it is a really powerful tool. And if I were to choose one thing, like people say, what yoga pose should I do to help my fertility? If I could choose one thing I would say do Yoga Nidra for at least 40 days straight **Michelle:** Yeah, **Kerry:** and see what happens. I think it's perfect. And I have a program, 40 days, a 40 day program where you have the option to do Yoga Nidra every day if you wanted to, or meditation. So yeah, it's, it's perfect. It's really powerful. really **Michelle:** is so cool. And I'm excited actually to have you as a guest contributor to my fertility hypnosis toolbox. Soon. I know a lot of people, listeners are probably on there, so you guys I'll be very excited. I think by the [00:41:00] time this is out, probably going to  **Kerry:** it. to you. I promise. I will do it. I feel honored  **Michelle:** have time. you have time.  **Kerry:** Yeah, I  know. But I wanted to make it, this is me. I want to make it, I don't want to just maybe take an old recording that, you know, It's, you know, been out there for a while. Like I want to make new things for you and also like, where do we need the yoga nidra the most? Like the two week wait, perfect time, um, after law. So you know, I want to theme them so that there's it hits home for what people need the most. **Michelle:** Well, I'm so grateful for that and I'm grateful for this conversation. I think this is awesome. I can nerd out on this stuff  **Kerry:** too. Me too. Me too. I **Michelle:** I think we're on the same page. **Kerry:** I am **Michelle:** fascinating.  **Kerry:** nerdy about it. And, **Michelle:** Yeah. **Kerry:** and, I mean, I know, I love what you do. All the messaging that you're sending out there to those that are on this journey, I think it's so valuable and, [00:42:00] and needed. we need more voices that are like, here, right? here, **Michelle:**  the ancient stuff, kind of like the bridging that ancient wisdom, that ancient nurturing, really connecting with nature. Cause I know that you also are a big fan of nature and being out in nature. And I think that really just kind of coming home to like our authentic authenticity of, as humans, and sort of the tribalness that, you know, coming home to really our roots and the sacredness that we have also as women. I think that that's there's so much power in that. And I think that a lot of people are thirsting for that. And that's why I nerd out on this. I say, it's you know, I could say my brain nerds out now, but I think my soul nerds **Kerry:** Mm. Oh, I love that. Yes, my soul nerds out on it. That is so good. I love that. I'm gonna use it  if I  can't  **Michelle:** said, well, Carrie, like I, we had such a great conversation also on your podcast, **Kerry:** yes  **Michelle:** guys. Yes. I highly recommend you guys [00:43:00] check out her podcasts. Fringe fertility. So it is definitely like something that I highly suggest. Cause you're going to get more of this amazing conversation on there and she has other guests on there. So yeah, very  **Kerry:** thanks for the shout out for the podcast. Thank you. Yeah. Well, it was a pleasure to be here today and sharing this conversation. I could just do it forever and ever. **Michelle:** for sure. And also before we go, how can people find you? What are the best ways? **Kerry:** sure. So yeah, I have a website Fertile Body Yoga. So it's a virtual yoga studio dedicated to fertility. So fertilebodyyoga. com. That's probably the, the lead in place to find me. I'm on Instagram as well. I'm not a huge Instagrammer though. And lately, I'm feeling like I just might need to walk away because for my mental health. But I do have an Instagram account. It is fertile body yoga there. And yeah, like I'm always doing [00:44:00] some great collaborative workshops and I have a retreat coming up at the end of April. You can cut this out if it's not the right timing, but so an in person retreat in New Hampshire at the end of April with. Two lovely co creators. So that, that's the big thing. That is huge. This has been years in the making and it's  finally  **Michelle:** That's so exciting. Well, congratulations. That's really cool. **Kerry:** Yeah. Thank you. **Michelle:** Awesome. Well, Carrie, this has been a pleasure and we really do have great conversations. I could tell you that we definitely are very aligned in a lot of the way we view the body and really view the fertility journey. And also thank you for sharing your own experience and now sharing your story. Cause I think that a lot of people will be inspired by that as well. So thank you so much. This has been amazing. Perfect.  **Kerry:** Thank you. for having me.[00:45:00] [00:46:00]     

innovative strategies from Gulsen Berkin Cinar and Michelle McLean, who are back after five years to share their secrets. From capitalizing on Amazon influencer opportunities to selling seasonal products, they reveal methods where people are earning up to $70,000 a month with no investment. Join us as we explore the incredible journey of a family-run Amazon business that skyrocketed from modest beginnings to a seven-figure revenue before being sold. Gulsen shares the thrill of launching a new brand and expanding into platforms like Shopify and Walmart. Michelle, driven by her passion for seasonal products, recounts her success with Amazon products during Christmas, illustrating the excitement of spotting and profiting from trending items. Dive into the world of Amazon influencers and affiliates with Michelle's expert tips on maximizing commission potential by reviewing higher ticket items. Discover how you can earn substantial income through Helium 10's affiliate program, even if you're just starting out. We'll also guide you on signing up for this lucrative opportunity and highlight the benefits, including lifetime recurring commissions and other rewards. Don't miss this episode, which is packed with actionable insights and real-life success stories designed to help you thrive in the e-commerce world. (Time Stamps) -  In episode 596 of the Serious Sellers Podcast, Bradley, Gulsen, and Michelle discuss: 00:00 - Boss Ladies Making Money Online 03:09 - Amazon Influencer Affiliate Program 03:47 - Amazon Business Exit and Brand Scaling Success 10:23 - Influencer Program and Earning Commissions 14:17 - First Amazon Product Review Videos 20:08 - Product Sourcing and Market Research 22:48 - Amazon Affiliate and Reviewer Earning Potential 29:02 - Helium 10 Affiliate Earning Potential 32:47 - The Power of Consistent Growth 34:29 - Helium 10 Affiliate Discount Opportunities 38:01 - Affiliate Program Sign-Up and Benefits ► Instagram: instagram.com/serioussellerspodcast ► Free Amazon Seller Chrome Extension: https://h10.me/extension ► Sign Up For Helium 10: https://h10.me/signup  (Use SSP10 To Save 10% For Life) ► Learn How To Sell on Amazon: https://h10.me/ft ► Watch The Podcasts On Youtube: youtube.com/@Helium10/videos Transcript Bradley Sutton: Today we've got a couple of boss ladies on the show who haven't been in the podcast in five years and they're going to be talking about cool ways that they're making thousands of dollars in their spare time by being either an Amazon influencer or selling seasonal products, along with a way that some people with no investment are even being paid $70,000 a month from Helium 10. How cool is that? Pretty, I think. Important message, guys. On October 23rd, Amazon is changing the window for which you can look back and claim that they owe you reimbursements for lost and damaged products at FBA warehouses. It used to be 18 months, but now it's going down to only 2 months. So, if you have never used a reimbursement service or Refund Genie, now is the time. Last week, I ran Refund Genie on two different accounts and got a total of over $5,000 back for those sellers. And don't forget, unlike a lot of services out there, Helium 10 doesn't take any commission on what we get back. If we say you're owed ten thousand dollars and you get back ten thousand dollars from amazon, you keep ten thousand dollars with no commission to Helium 10 at all. Refund Genie is now available to anybody who has a Helium 10 Platinum Annual Plan or higher. So, to get an estimate about on how much money you could get back, go to h10.me/refundgenie. If you've never used a Helium 10 coupon, use the code SSP10 to save money if you need to upgrade to a Platinum Annual Plan.   Bradley Sutton: Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Serious Sellers Podcast by Helium 10. I am your host, Bradley Sutton, and this is the show. That's a completely BS-free, unscripted and unrehearsed organic conversation about serious strategies for serious sellers of any level in the e-commerce world, and we've got a couple of people here that are super, super old school here at Helium 10, including the one person, the only person who has been at the company here in United States side longer than me, and then another person who was one of my first hires here at Helium 10 just a couple months after I got started. So, Gulsen and Michelle, welcome back to the show.   Michelle: Hello   Gulsen: Hello   Michelle: wow, I feel so old.   Bradley Sutton: Well, hey, that's why I'm also I'm wearing the old school Helium 10 logo shirt here to kind of like reminisce about our old days, you know, way back then in the WeWork. Now I say welcome back to the show because there's been a huge gap since Michelle and Gulsen have been on the show the word now in episode I don't know like 580 something or 590 something. Their first time on the show was episode 86, way back in December of 2019. So, if you want to get a little bit more of their backstory, go ahead and see if you can find I don't even know if you can find such an old episode, but episode 86, where we had them and some of the other members of our crew all together on one episode. But I was like you know what? It's been years since you guys have come on and each of you have interesting things to talk about. So, let's go ahead and have you guys uh back on. So, first of all, um, let's start with uh, Gulsen. Now what about you? And you know you've since before you even worked at Helium 10. You know you've had like a family Amazon business. Um, ven offline, obviously you're my co-worker, but we've never really talked about that in a long time. Like, are you guys still selling on Amazon? You selling on other market? What have you guys been doing with that side of your things?   Gulsen: Yes, so you don't know this, but you know we were running that Amazon business with my husband and last year December we sold that one and the first call I received. Now my husband is building another brand.   Bradley Sutton: Well, hold on. I want to talk about that. I didn't know that you were right, I had brand and I want to talk about that. I didn't know that. You're right, I had no idea. So how did you find a buyer for the business? What was it like through an aggregator? Did you use a service or just networking?   Gulsen: Yeah, he was with a partner and um, he was always getting those questions like, um, if he ever likes to sell his shares and stuff, but at the time it was very good season to do that move last year December. So yeah, and it. You know it was very stressful and long journey for years but I'm so happy that we came to that ending and he took like a few weeks refresh and now he's on top of it another brand by himself right now.   Bradley Sutton: Okay, so what did he scale that brand to like? what was the peak yearly sales like approximately?   Gulsen: Yeah, so by the time he started it was about four hundred dollars per month.   Bradley Sutton: Four hundred thousand dollars ?   Gulsen: Four hundred Dollars.   Bradley Sutton: Four hundred. Oh, when he started, you said yeah, okay, I was like about to say well, who is buying an amazon business that grosses $400 a month, like good grief? Okay, that makes sense now. So that was when he started, and then he scaled it to what?   Gulsen: Yeah, the time he moved out that they were at monthly six figures.   Bradley Sutton: Oh wow. So definitely a seven-figure brand, oh yeah, that is pretty cool and then and then. So now he's starting from scratch or like something similar, or, and he's already launched, or he's just in the planning stage right now.   Gulsen: From scratch it's already launched and now, um, this time we just wanted to want it to be more on like brand side. We still use, of course, amazon and we will try to start selling on Walmart as well, but now we're just trying to be so heavy on Shopify, building the brand awareness, and then, of course, the goal is the goal again, selling it. But to me, you remember my Amazon account. I was so like a Grand Bazaar Amazon account. I still have it and still is my passion to find those seasonal items.   Bradley Sutton: But you're not still. Have you been off and on selling products on that account?   Gulsen: Yes, yes.   Bradley Sutton: Oh okay, I didn't know that. Okay, cool, but only seasonal.   Gulsen: Only seasonal and I know you don't really like it when you do Amazon for patient. But that account you saw that it's such a passionate account only the products I really like to spend my time on and not really that profitable, but still nice. And I feel like I still like to spend a lot of time on Black Box trying to find products and then search them on Alibaba, even if I'm not going to invest. I think it started to be like a habit for my life. And, yeah, the last time I found something it was a toy product. I never recommend anyone to, you know, join a toy business, but this one was crazy because, like it was selling on Amazon about like $26, the price to import and everything was about 450. So now it's just, you know, um, making my mind so busy like should I really launch a toy product? But it's so competitive and, yeah, I might be needing to pick your brain about it very soon.   Bradley Sutton: Okay, I thought you were saying you already did this. I was waiting for the results. This is what you're planning. What is something you've already done in the last year or so that really was a good experience? When you just found some random product and then it was able to sell during the season. Can you give an example?   Gulsen: Yeah, I can give you an example. What's so funny is I really like to look around a lot while shopping, like actual shopping, Like I'm touring the Costco, Sam's Club, these places and like Bluetooth Beanies. I don't know if you remember them.   Bradley Sutton: It's like you have a beanie, but then there's like headphones or something inside. Oh, okay.   Gulsen: Inside the beanie there were headphones and the first time I saw them like we were shopping on Sam's Club. The first time I saw them, we were shopping on Sam's Club and Charlie, my husband, he was telling me you know what? This product will go viral. And then we sourced it and, oh my God, it was such an amazing experience because that product really went viral.   Bradley Sutton: So, you sourced it, not to piggyback on the listing, but you made your own listing a brand new. You just found it in Alibaba. So how much did you sell of that product?   Gulsen: Yeah, during Christmas time we sold close to 1,000 units   Bradley Sutton: 1,000 units at what price?   Gulsen: I believe it was about $14,000, $14,000, $15,000.   Bradley Sutton: Okay, so a nice little five-figure a month there on one product or two.   Gulsen: yeah, it was amazing but, like I said, it was seasonal and now like I don't even think anyone is going to search for Bluetooth beanie, but we were one of the first listings on amazon selling that product.   Bradley Sutton: Nice so finding products at Sam's Club in Costco. I just go there for like free samples and a dollar 50 hot dog and stuff. But now, now I know I need to start looking out for products. All right, let's switch to Michelle now. So, Michelle, you know, in the beginning at Helium 10 and the last time you were on the podcast you like, like your experience with Amazon was pretty much just interacting with Helium 10 and interacting with, interacting with our customers. But now you're not necessarily an Amazon private label seller. But tell us what you are now in that definitely has to do with the Amazon ecosystem.   Michelle: Yeah, of course you know really quick. I wanted to say how far back I've been, you know, just to give some clarity for people listening. When I first started Helium 10, my daughter was eight months. She's going to be seven years old in November. So, this just goes to show like how old I am.   Bradley Sutton: I don't need any reminders for that.   Michelle: Yeah, I was just thinking about that and I was like, oh my gosh, it's been almost six going on seven years, so that's insane.   Bradley Sutton: That's crazy, that's great. And then I remember how it was like your desk was like behind mine, so I need to check on what you're doing. I just like turn around, we're all in that little, we work there. And then I got to move to like this little, literally a closet. You know, the affiliate team office was like this little that used to be a storage closet and then it became my office.   Michelle: And then what? Six or been very exciting, and I honestly love building relationships and speaking with different people around the world. It's awesome. So now what I'm doing is I've learned and I've kind of just jumped on ships with the Amazon. Influencers program is something that you don't need to really invest money in. It's more of just investing your time and basically you are reviewing products and then when you review them, you upload them to Amazon and Amazon does all the work for you and you just earn commission off anyone that watches your video.   Bradley Sutton: How do you even find out about that people are doing that, because I think nowadays some more and more people know about it, but like I didn't really know about it until somebody like I don't know maybe I saw a video on it or something but how do you even know that this was something that people do?   Michelle: Yeah, it's actually really funny. So, I was just searching, looking for new influence affiliates to join Helium 10 and you know, the algorithm just picks up and all of a sudden, you're seeing like people selling you courses and it's like, hey, the Amazon review program. And I was like, what is this? So, I dived into it and I just started following and I was like you know what? I've never been one to just like jump and, you know, spend a lot of money on products, but this seems like something I can do. And I did it kind of just more of like as a test and, um, it was, yeah, I got like approved right away and then I did the second approval and I got approved in that and now it's just putting videos up on Amazon and the more videos you put there, the more commission you make. And you know it really just depends on the type of video you make as well, of course, the quality and everything. But it's really fun and I feel like for me being like a really busy full-time mom um, and you know, working full-time this is something that I can do, that I don't have to just like run a business. It's just more of yeah fun on the side.   Bradley Sutton: yeah, like even us, you know amazon sellers, like we all have families, like this is something, and maybe your daughter is a little bit too young still, but you know this is something, is something that you know you got like teenagers or even, um, you know, maybe preteens a little bit. You could almost have them like make some of these uh videos and it's like something super simple. Obviously, you know adult needs to set it all up, but it's not like rocket science where you have to be a pro influencer. Uh, you know, in order to make these review videos, a lot of them are just like kind of like unboxing and how you're using it right.   Michelle: Yeah, you know what Funny thing is? My daughter got her first brand deal.   Bradley Sutton: Oh well, okay. Well, maybe she is old enough, I guess. Okay, my bad.   Michelle: Yeah, so there's. There's Amazon sellers looking for people to or, you know, other people to review their product. And one was a mom who just came out with a kid's face wash and she was like hey, I saw your daughter on Instagram. I would love for her to review my product. My daughter is all about skincare because of YouTube and she absolutely loved it. She did it and I just got another email yesterday from another seller who saw her video on that listing asking if they can review her skincare product now and I'm like wait, she's starting to get all these deals, she's only six.   Bradley Sutton: Wow.   Michelle: It is really cool. Of course, you know you need to be in it as a parent, but it is really fun and I've seen a lot of married couples, even like a husband will have his own and then the wife has her own and they just capitalize on that extra income.   Bradley Sutton: Interesting. Now, what's the? I mean, there's a difference, necessarily, between like, almost anybody can sign up to be an Amazon affiliate but then to be an Amazon influencer. Do they still require that you have some kind of social media account that has X number of followers? And then, if so, like what is that requirement?   Michelle: Yeah, so that's a great question. So many people get confused between the Amazon Associates program and that is basically offsite commission. You have to have a website; you get the affiliate link and then you basically drive traffic from your website to Amazon with the Amazon reviewers' program. That's onsite commission and you necessarily don't need a huge following on social media. You just need to have good engagement for the first two steps. So as long as you get engagement, you build your, your engagement, you sign up and you get approved, you don't even need to worry about that social platform anymore. It's just like building up that reviewer's videos and then just letting Amazon do that for you.   Bradley Sutton: Okay, excellent, excellent. Now, um, what was the very first video that you did Like? What was it for? Do you remember what it was?   Michelle: Yeah, so, amazon. In order for you to get approved for the second step you actually need very first video that you did like what was it for? Do you remember what it was? Yeah, so amazon. In order for you to get approved for the second step, you actually need to submit three product review videos. So, it's not only one, it's three. So, I did a dog uh feeder, so it's basically a dog bowl but like it has a puzzle inside for your dogs, um, to slow their feeding. And then then I did a Spanish book, and then I did a I don't want to say dupe, but I did a smart watch that you know looks like a brand name like Apple, and that actually got approval. So that got me three. That got my first three approvals for the Amazon reviewers' program.   Bradley Sutton: Your style of doing Amazon business, like why do you think this is kind of good? Like it's obviously not for the kind of person who's like trying to build up a brand and, you know, be able to exit like your husband did with his brand. But what kind of person is what your model is of? Like these seasonal products in here or there? Like are you even putting it on a brand registry or you're just doing generic brands? Or how are you doing these listings?   Gulsen: No, no brand. How are you doing these listings? No brand registry. And I think that what I'm doing is great for who is working like typical 9 to 5 that would like to get extra site income. And also, like you know, before working at Helium 10, I did supply chain my entire life, so I'm so close to those sourcing agencies or the places in like. I'm originally from Turkey. I know a lot of Turkish manufacturers. Plus, I have very good experience in Far East so it's so easy for me to source products. So, I feel like it is mixed for me. If you really like sourcing trying to find new people on the manufacturing end or sourcing end and if it's giving you pleasure, then that's great because then the money comes itself. But it's not something that you can quit working on your corporate and rely on those seasonal items.   Bradley Sutton: now, for example, that, what do you say? beanie, Bluetooth, Bluetooth, beanie, whatever it's called? Um, you know, you, you grossed I don't know fifteen thousand dollars, twenty thousand dollars or whatever from it. Yeah, was that all one order from the manufacturer and you only did one? And then, if so, like what was that initial investment? Like landed to amazon, like the price of the products and then the importation, and landed to Amazon, like, how much did you invest in that project?   Gulsen: It was like we created two orders the first order, it's like it was gone like in the very first month and a half, and then, since we foresee it, we had to place another order and we did the same quantity and I think we invested about maybe $7,000 in total.   Bradley Sutton: In the first order and both orders together.   Gulsen: The first order, like both orders together, could be around 14K, but it includes everything. Everything like it's includes about two thousand of those Bluetooth beanies and the import and the shipping. So, we had to act quick so we couldn't really do a vessel.   Bradley Sutton: Wait, the first order was 2,000 units   Gulsen: It was 1,000 and 1,000.   Bradley Sutton: Okay so you have, you sold all of them?   Gulsen: yeah, so the first.   Bradley Sutton: I thought you only sold 1000 units. You actually sold 2000 units.   Gulsen: it was during Christmas time. We sold about 1000 and that's why we were so high and excited. We ordered the second order and then those um the remainders. I think we have left about like 300 pieces left and then we started to get orders, maybe once a week and like bi-weekly.   Bradley Sutton: No, not so yeah you sold way more than like 20. You know like we're talking more like 20, 30 000, so seven thousand dollars to invest. And then are you just doing the regular private label ways to get on page one like, hey, I'm gonna run some PPC and try, I mean like that's how you did it.   Gulsen: Yeah, we were so lucky because we were one of the first listings, as I said, and organic, we were already on the page one for that Bluetooth beanie. But then of course you know how it goes Competition comes so crucially and we had to run PPC but still it wasn't that competitive because we were there at the beginning and we sent all inventory to FBA but then we had to take some inventory back and started to sell the rest as FBM.   Bradley Sutton: You should see me about those. I'll start shipping them for you. You can pay my kids to do that. Okay, so then I mean, that's fascinating. I don't know how I didn't know all of this stuff that you're doing. Yeah, you know what.   Gulsen: Funny enough. Actually, it's not about me, but again, like with my husband. Do you remember those fidget spinners?   Bradley Sutton: Yes, yes.   Gulsen: Yeah, he was also like one of the first listings with those fidget spinners on Amazon. Like I think he has a good sense of finding what will come to be a buy.   Bradley Sutton: Well, how did you and he validate that thing? Because you know like it's different when you're trying to be the first kind of like we were kind of like the first coffin shelf. You know there's not like a bunch of data where it's like oh, I know all the main competitors and what they're ranking for and stuff. So, what did you guys use to validate? Like, did you buy some from Costco and just put it up and do a test listing to see how it goes? Or how did you have the con? I mean, cause $7,000 is still $7,000. You know that's a lot of money. Like you got to have some kind of confidence that you're going to be successful. So, if you couldn't see other beanie uh, Bluetooth, Bluetooth beanies, people having confidence what numbers or what were you looking at that made you go ahead and pull the trigger on that order?   Gulsen: Yeah, the thing is I can source those products so quickly because of my connections. So, with that fidget spinner we didn't really do any drop shipping. We just found the manufacturer and I still doubt it was the manufacturer. I still feel like we were talking to a trader at that time. But we got the products in like in 10 days when we decided to go.   Bradley Sutton: Oh, no, the beanie, though that's the one I'm wondering. Yeah, the beanie, you saw it in Sam's Club. It's not like hey, let me go to. Oh, there's a nice product Sam's Club, let me go ahead and drop $7,000. I'm sure you must have done some kind of research or something to take a look.   Gulsen: Yeah, so, uh, what was really very surprising to me when you go to Alibaba or like, let's say, DHgate, and search for some products, you would see tons of manufacturer putting the same picture of the product and selling them. That time, when we check for the Bluetooth beanies, we only sold two, two manufacturers on Alibaba and at that time I was like wow, like this is amazing, because the manufacturers are not just saturating the market. Yes, so it was one of the insights for me. And the second one was it was I believe it was right before the Halloween and you know, like during Christmas times. It's amazing product that you can put in those stockings and not very expensive, but still, it would make your grandchildren so happy to have a gadget like that. It's great if you're like, if you do ski, snowboarding and stuff, you don't really worry about you. So, we believe in the product too.   Bradley Sutton: But was there a search volume at the time, like was anybody searching that at all in Helium 10? Or there wasn't even search volume for that keyword yet.   Gulsen: I don't remember that we saw a huge amount of search volume.   Bradley Sutton: interesting, all right. So, hey, like that's really getting ahead of the, you know, similar to like what we did with the wooden egg tray in project X, where there was nobody searching for wooden egg tray but we're like, hey, I think this is going to be a hot product. All right, that's very interesting, I like that method. Now going back to Michelle, um, let's say I start my, my um influencer account. Would you suggest the first thing to do which actually is me I've had, because, I don't know, I'm lazy, I guess, but like should is the first thing I should do is just go around my house and look at stuff that I bought from Amazon or that stuff that exists on Amazon and start making videos of those things? Is that like a good first step for somebody just getting started?   Michelle: yeah, so not a lot of people know this, but Amazon has it. Use your phone, the Amazon scanner app, and you can go around your house and scan anything and then you find stuff that are actually being sold on Amazon. And I do that. And when I first started, I did a lot of my higher ticket items. So, like my bed frame I got on that wasn't on Amazon and I checked and it was. I'm sorry I didn't get it from Amazon, but when I checked it was on Amazon and so I reviewed it. And then I reviewed like my sofa. My couch was there. I got my couch from an outlet and my couch was also on Amazon. So, I would say to focus on like your higher ticket items, but then also mix it up and do some mid-level, like $20, $30, $40, because those are what's going to give you commission. And if you start a lot of people focus on like really small items, like $10, $12, you're only going to see change. So, you want to have a mix of both and the more videos you bring in, the better. I would also say to look at your like how many influencer videos are there right? Like you don't want to review a product and there's so many review videos that you're not even going to be seen, so that's something else to look out for.   Bradley Sutton: Like what's the best opportunity? Like obvious, it's like, is it something that's selling really well, so that you know there's a lot of you know people getting on that page, and at the same time, maybe like there's not that many influencer videos on that page? Like, is that how you prioritize it? Like, let's say, you could do like 30 things and you're like, okay, how do I know which ones I should do first Because I can get the most money? Would that be what you're looking at, or is there other factors involved too?   Michelle: Yeah, so I try to see how many product listings there are. So, I'll give you an example. Like the smartwatch that I did, that was one of my like it's still actually selling really well and because there's multiple, actually there's only like 50 or 100 people buying it per month from what Amazon showed, but there's a lot of sellers that had it as well, and so I realized that people were watching my video and then they were going on to another listing and then they were like, okay, I really want to get this watch, and then they were just purchasing it. So that's one way. So, you also just want to make sure that there's demand for it, like people are buying it. Right, if you have a rug and you're going to review it and you go in and like there's bad reviews, it says from Amazon, this product is most likely going to get returned, probably not the best one you want to start with.   Bradley Sutton: My next question, uh, would be is just, you know, to give people an idea of the potential here? um, what are some success stories you've heard about, like how much money people are making? And then you, your exact example. You obviously work full-time for Helium 10, so it's not like you're just sitting in your house all day doing video I hope not, otherwise our boss might not be happy about that but you're just doing it here and there in your spare time. Since you already have a full-time job, how much are you grossing every month from this?   Michelle: Yeah, so Amazon's commission is uncapped. You can basically make as much. I just recently started, June, and I'm already about last month I made $600 and then all together it's probably about a thousand, but it hasn't even been a full three months. So, you know, with and I only have a hundred and like 60 videos on my Amazon storefront. So of course, the more videos I'm going to have, the more I'm going to be able to make. I I'm in a lot of Amazon reviewer groups and people make who've been there for like 12 months a year two years can make at least three to $6,000. So, like my goal is to put as many videos as possible and I'm trying to get to like 500 videos for Christmas, because I know that during Christmas time it's going to be really busy. So, I'm really excited to see if I can get at least up to two to three thousand dollars by Christmas in a month.   Bradley Sutton: How much time does it take you to make these videos? Because I know like they actually don't necessarily need like super crazy professional video production and seven different scenes and Steven Spielberg quality. But it's like you just use your cell phone, if I'm not mistaken, right, and then and then what program are using for like cut it up and then put some like captions, and is that basically it? So, what's the time constraint? And then, what are the tools you're using to, to, to put it all together?   Michelle: So that's a great question. Because I'm such a you know I'm busy, everything. I try not to put as much time into this and you really don't because people want to see reviews that are very authentic. They don't want to see like commercials or advertisements, they want to see real people making reviews. So, I just scan it. If I see that it's on Amazon, I will quickly get my water bottle, or if it's a product of a water bottle, quickly get it. Put my phone, place it so I can see myself in it and make a quick 30 to 45 second review video. Make sure the audio is good and I use CapCut. Capcut is free. You can also purchase it and I purchased it because you can enhance your audio, you can clean it up and you can also slice it up. So, in all, it takes me maybe like five minutes per video per product, because you get better as you go and then you just float.   Bradley Sutton: Awesome, awesome, okay, cool, I'm going to get my kids started on that then. Now let's switch gears and talk about what you guys do here, because this is another way that people can make money without having to invest too much money and that's being an affiliate. And so, let's just talk about the extreme, just to get people excited here. Some affiliates here at the company how much money are they grossing? How much money is Helium 10 paying them per month in additional things like cars and stuff like that? So just like get people excited about this subject.   Gulsen: It's really crazy, because some affiliates are making about $70,000 per month.   Bradley Sutton: From Helium 10? Okay, I might be in the wrong position here. What in the actual heck? I had no idea.   Gulsen: But it's not that, so we also pay for their cars.   Bradley Sutton: What are some cars that we're paying for people.   Gulsen: What I remember, we have like one, I believe, Tesla Model S and G-Wagon and a Mercedes, RV minibus and yeah, these are the ones.   Bradley Sutton: In addition, making tens of thousands, even up to 70,000, that okay. Now I think we have you got my attention already, like I didn't even know that we were at that level yet, and so okay. So, what about you know what? What are the ways that that that people are getting to that level? Obviously, no, we're not going to sit here and say, hey, anybody can just make $70,000 a month from Helium 10. But basically, how are they doing something like that? Either of you can answer this.   Gulsen: Yeah, it is. If you have an audience this is only what matters engaged audience you can be a very popular YouTuber, you can be running a course, you can be a great blogger, or you're just someone spreading the word about how to sell on Amazon and the software that's helping with it. Because we pay lifetime recurring commission 25% and on top of the commission we have extra rewards. I'd like Michelle to talk about them yeah.   Michelle: So I will say, some of our top affiliate, like producers, that we pay out high commission, it's because our program is so lucrative and, again, it's 25 lifetime commission. So, some of our affiliates have been here for three, four years and they're still making commission with us on top of the extra bonus program rewards that we're paying for their cars or we're paying for their restaurant dinners, like we pay for so many things. And I also want to clarify, like we don't only pay out top affiliates, like we have a bonus reward program that also pays our smaller guys, like if you're just starting out, we're actually going to update our program, so you're going to receive $500 just for bringing in 10 new subs.   Bradley Sutton: I think what you know, one thing that I want to double click on right there that you said is like the lifetime commission. So, theoretically, you know, let's say, I have this channel where I'm talking about Amazon, but, for whatever reason, I'm like you know what? YouTube shut me down. I no longer have a YouTube channel; I'm just going to stop this. But I had signed up 100 people to Helium 10. Let's just say it's the cheapest plan, so they're paying Helium 10. Those 100 people are paying Helium 10 100 times $100. Okay, all right. So hey, wait, wait, hold on, I'm going to. I'm about to do some advanced math here. So those customers are paying helium 10, $10,000 a month, but every month the affiliate is getting 25%, right? Yeah, so then that's a wait 0.25 times 10,000 is they're getting a check for $2,500 a month. But let's say, today my YouTube channel shut down and it shut down for a year, next year. Let's just say, if those hundred people are still paying Helium 10, they never even did anything, they didn't make one more video, they didn't like help these people at all. They're still getting a check for $2,500 a month, every month from now until infinity, as long as those members. So that that that's that. That that's what I think is really good about our, our system.   Bradley Sutton: Now, uh, Michelle, you know, we obviously talked about one side of the spectrum where it's big influencers or people who have this big course or big YouTube channel or something. Obviously, it's a no brainer to sign up, you know, to be an affiliate, because instantly they're probably going to start making tons of money just because they're going to be able to sign up people. But again, we're talking this episode is kind of like about making money without too much investment. What if I'm just an average Joe? Maybe I'm just an average Joe Helium 10 user out there I know Helium 10 well or I'm just listening to this podcast somehow and I don't have a YouTube channel. I don't have a big popular blog or, you know, Instagram, with a hundred thousand followers. What's a way that I can scale up? I mean, I can still be an affiliate even if I have nobody just at least get started. But how can I scale up my platform in order to start building up? How much Helium 10 is paying me?   Michelle: Yeah, so that's a really good question. I would say consistency, and that goes for everything that you do, right. If you are an average girl, like we've seen this. Like we have people sign up and they don't have like a big platform. However, like they're consistent with growing their audience, whether they you know what I decided I'm going to be a YouTuber. Now I'm going to start posting YouTube videos consistently and on top of that, I'm going to start posting Helium 10 demos, because I am a Helium 10 wizard, so why not share my knowledge? Or I'm going to start my own community on Facebook. Um, and they're consistent with growing their audience. They can eventually start growing commission, because all it takes is one person to get inspired and sign up for Helium 10 with your affiliate link and then, all of a sudden, it's three months in, you're like 10, 15, 20. And you're already, like you said, grossing like $2,500. And you haven't even done much. And you know, like I said, it's really about consistency and it's really fun, because I enjoy speaking with a lot of these smaller affiliates and encouraging them and then seeing their growth. It's insane.   Bradley Sutton: Maybe I don't even have plans for making a community, but I mean, I guess theoretically, hey, I'm in, I'm in Facebook groups or uh, I post in in in X, uh, you know, like threads about, you know, formerly Twitter and as far as Amazon, I'm on Reddit and stuff like I could just share the coupon code here and there when people talk about it, and even without either, like being an influencer, I could be making commission. I just sign up. One person sees that code. You know that maybe my Reddit post is indexed by Google and then somehow somebody lands on it and I never even touched that person or had anything to do with them. They thought they use my code. I've got that revenue for life. So that's, that's something guys out there. You know you don't have to be some big influencer. If you're just a regular Helium 10 user and you know you have friends interested in Helium 10, give them a discount. You know, get a discount code Affiliates get discount codes that other people can't get and you're helping your friend out and now you're going to you know what.   Michelle: Let me just join, for instance we just had a webinar and Riley was in it and he taught, talked all about q4 and how to you know create a good listing for q4, how to prepare. That was a webinar and now they have the opportunity to share an affiliate link with their friends or family there and who, anyone else that they know who's selling on Amazon. And if that person decides like hey, this was a really great webinar, I, I really need Helium 10 now because I want to make sure my listing is great, like, oh, now there's a coupon code attached, so just like that, just by sharing a resource and how Helium 10 can help, they can easily earn and make money with it.   Bradley Sutton: that's a good point because it's not like, oh, I need to be a Helium 10 expert or an Amazon expert. If you've got the audience, like actual evangelists like myself, Carrie, Shivali, we'll go on the channel like, hey, we'll do a video and you don't even need to bring the expertise, because we've got it and you just provide the audience. And then I wish I need to arrange something. These affiliates are making so much money and I'm the one who's doing these videos and I'm not seeing any part of this. Something doesn't feel fair there. But anyways, take advantage of it guys. Take advantage of it. I'm not getting any money, but I'll be supporting there. Gulsen. Anything else to say about our affiliate program?   Gulsen: Yeah, I think our affiliate program is offering money and also offering a bunch of information and the trends. So, we're like at Helium 10, we are not just like, hey, promote us and get the commission. We are helping a lot for our affiliates to grow. So, some real-life experiences like one of our affiliate's accounts get hacked and he was having hard time dealing with Google so we were there for him and we helped him to get his account back. Or I was on a call with one of our affiliates chief marketing officers because he was curious about the latest trends and I was giving him my two cents about what they should be else doing to boost their reach, like getting more students.   Bradley Sutton: Haven't some like giving you access to like their YouTube channel and you go in there and optimize. Like you're literally in their YouTube and fixing for them and stuff like that.   Gulsen: I didn't want to talk about that one, but yes, this happened as well. Yeah, so, like Helium 10 is the only platform where you have your dedicated account manager. We are not a platform like your account is managed by a team of VAs or you're just talking to some AI generated chat box, so it's like you work with us and you also have a marketing manager that you don't need to pay. So that's why I really find it very beneficial for our affiliates. And the other thing is we work with thousands of affiliates and we know we see what's working, and we see what used to be working before but not anymore, or what's failing. So, it's good that we have this experience without really facing the actual work. So, it's always good to share what's working with our other partners to help them grow and win together.   Bradley Sutton: So, if you guys want more information, want to sign up right away there's no sign-up charge or no entry fee or anything like that. Just go to h10.me forward, slash, crush it, crush it. Two words, but it's together, no spaces. H10.me forward, slash, crush it and sign up. If there might be a little box that says, how did you find out about this or something, make sure to say that you heard about it on the podcast. Right before I started at Helium 10, I actually had signed up to be a Helium 10 affiliate and then Michelle was like my affiliate manager and stuff. So, yeah, we've come full circle here, but I want you guys to go ahead and crush it as well on there. So that's super cool. And then remember, guys, it doesn't matter where you are in the world. You know we've got affiliates in in Pakistan and Tajikistan and Japan and Korea, and I think the only country we don't have affiliates is North Korea. So, every other country in the world we've got affiliates because you know you've got an audience everywhere there and obviously Helium 10 works in so many different countries. So, make sure to sign up, all right, guys.   Bradley Sutton: So, uh, one more note is where you know Michelle is actually going to be doing like a little mini course in helium tend to help people learn more about being an Amazon influencer, so be on the lookout for when that, uh, when that comes out, and Gulsen is going to be working on the course of Turkish cooking for Helium 10. I'm just playing, but, uh, we'll have to think of a course that you can, uh, you can make for us too. But, thank you, thank you both, so much for uh coming on here. It's great to see, uh, you know people who were there from almost day one, uh, from when I started here at Helium 10, and, and we're the, we're, we're going to be like the trio here who keeps on going to, are doing.   Michelle: Thanks, Bradley, thank you for having us.

Unlock the secrets of skyrocketing your e-commerce sales with TikTok Shop! Join us as we sit down with Michelle Barnum-Smith, a leading expert on TikTok Shop, who will reveal why this platform is revolutionizing e-commerce and how you can tap into its immense potential. From unparalleled user engagement to an all-inclusive buying experience that supports brand building and data transparency, Michelle dissects the unique advantages TikTok Shop offers over traditional platforms like Amazon. Get ready to learn how full visibility of sales data and direct customer interactions can transform your business. In this episode, we explore the seamless customer journey on TikTok Shop from sparking awareness to completing a purchase all within the app. Discover how the shift from traditional influencer marketing to a collaborative affiliate model is empowering creators to drive sales through direct rewards from TikTok. We also get into TikTok's growing prominence as a search engine for younger generations and the new shopping features that make discoverability effortless. This is a golden opportunity for sellers to leverage TikTok Shop's innovative ecosystem to maximize engagement and boost sales. Prepare to be inspired by real-life success stories and practical tips for setting up your very own TikTok Shop. We cover everything from business registration and linking social accounts to optimizing your listings and content for viral success. Michelle shares invaluable insights on inventory forecasting and the ripple effect of TikTok Shop's success on other platforms like Amazon. Plus, learn the importance of adhering to community guidelines to avoid account suspensions and ensure your business thrives on TikTok Shop. Don't miss out on this comprehensive guide to navigating and conquering TikTok Shop's dynamic marketplace! In episode 578 of the Serious Sellers Podcast, Bradley and Michelle discuss: 00:00 - Exploring TikTok Shop for Sellers 02:56 - TikTok's Influence on Consumer Purchases 06:23 - Enhanced Shopping Experience on TikTok 09:32 - Maximizing Sales Through TikTok Shop 11:04 - Reviving Live Selling With TikTok Shop 16:22 - TikTok Shop Viral Success Stories 16:40 - Success Tips for TikTok Shop Setup 19:55 - Maximizing Marketing Opportunities on TikTok 25:11 - TikTok Shop Guidelines and Best Practices 26:40 - Navigating TikTok Shop Suspension Guidelines 33:48 - Effective Creator Outreach Strategy Guide ► Instagram: instagram.com/serioussellerspodcast ► Free Amazon Seller Chrome Extension: https://h10.me/extension ► Sign Up For Helium 10: https://h10.me/signup  (Use SSP10 To Save 10% For Life) ► Learn How To Sell on Amazon: https://h10.me/ft ► Watch The Podcasts On YouTube: youtube.com/@Helium10/videos Transcript Bradley Sutton: TikTok shop is one of the hottest marketplaces in 2024 to sell on. Today we're going to do a deep dive into everything you need to know to get started selling on that platform. How cool is that? Pretty cool, I think. Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Serious Sellers Podcast by Helium 10. I'm your host, Bradley Sutton, and this is the show that is our special Freedom Ticket monthly workshop, where we actually film live a training, a deep dive training, into a certain aspect of e-commerce and we put it later into Freedom Ticket so that you guys can benefit from it. But you guys here on the podcast are going to get the benefit of getting this training too. Now today's guest is going to be Michelle Barnum-Smith, who is definitely an expert in the field of TikTok shop and she's going to do a deep dive into like hey, what do you need to do to get started and what are some best practices? You know we've had some people on this podcast who sell on TikTok shop. You guys have heard them doing some crazy, crazy numbers, some of them even doing more than their Amazon business. So if you guys want to know what's involved with getting set up on this platform, this episode is going to be for you.   Kevin King: Now, Michelle I've known for quite some time, and so today she's going to be showing you why you need to be considering TikTok and talking about some of the opportunities that are there and what she's doing to help herself and her clients actually crush it. So please welcome Michelle.   Michelle: Today we've got lots of ground to cover and we're going to be talking about the TikTok shop opportunity. Just like Kevin said and Shivali said, unless you've been living under a rock, it is all the buzz, and rightly so. Some people don't realize this, but TikTok shop was born from a hashtag and the whole idea of TikTok made me buy it. This hashtag has been around for several years and it basically was like hey, I discovered this on TikTok and I went and bought it. And here I'm showing it off again because TikTok made me buy this. And essentially, TikTok shop allows businesses to showcase through engaging short videos, live streams and creator collaborations, and users can discover and purchase products directly within the app, creating a smooth and convenient shopping experience. And we're going to talk about, like, just how powerful this really is for you as brand sellers.   Michelle: So the opportunity of a TikTok shop has never been hotter. I mean, essentially, we're talking about a billion monthly users. They're on the app 17 times a day, with 83% of people saying that TikTok has influenced purchase decisions on what they're doing and what they're buying. So consumers are on TikTok specifically to be entertained. They hang out for hours. One and a half billion monthly user base spending an average of 95 minutes a day on the platform. I want you to think about that. That's like at least three episodes of your favorite show on Netflix. It's, you know, it's like people are just like scrolling, scrolling, scrolling and, um, all, all times of the day, like, like we saw in that previous stat of 17 times. You know, essentially starting the app 17 times a day, kind of crazy. Um, they offer a frictionless buying experience from creator to product page, to checkout to back to scrolling in seconds, which is one of the huge reasons why TikTok and TikTok Shop is such a powerful opportunity for sellers, right this second, so you can literally go from an organic discovery experience to a checkout experience in just seconds, and you can amplify that opportunity with some certain promotional activities that we'll talk about. So, bottom line, TikTok shop really helps build brands, not just sell products, so they have more high quality traffic, more sales and repurchases, have full visibility of data, end to end loop closing data.   Michelle: So one of the things that I love so much about TikTok shop is having previously just used TikTok to drive traffic to Amazon. So I have tried it a whole bunch and it is so frustrating because Amazon's a black hole. They don't share data back with you. So if you've ever tried to run ads, drive influencer content, even do social media like, just focus on the social media side of TikTok or Instagram or Facebook or whatever it might be. There's no data back from Amazon, even with using attribution, because Amazon attribution is 55% inaccurate to actually tell you what converted, what drove sales. It's kind of like a guess most of the time and if sales rise you're kind of like, okay, well, what contributed to that In TikTok shop? You know exactly what contributed to that sale. You know exactly what social posts drove how many sales. Which affiliate is your number one affiliate? If you're running ads, you know exactly how those ads are performing.   Michelle: It allows you to speak directly with your viewers as well, your customers, your prospects, every step along the way. It's you the face of the brand, your brand, interacting directly with customers. So most of the time, most sellers, most consumers, don't realize that there's sellers behind their brands on Amazon. They just think that they're buying a product on Amazon. That's not the case with TikTok. TikTok gives sellers opportunity to interact directly with the customer on every step of the customer journey. So there's no question who is? You know who this relationship is with and there's serious marketing opportunities, and I'm such a marketing geek. I love all of the marketing opportunities that TikTok has. Just this, just today, they released promo codes. Super excited about that. So let's talk about the full shopping journey within TikTok. Essentially, TikTok allows you to discover through shoppable content and through short videos and lives to select, basically go and learn more from about the product on the product detail page and then actually check out and buy, place orders and check out without ever leaving TikTok. So why this is so significant? As a marketer and as a seller myself, if I have, let's say, the counter to that is on Instagram and if you've ever been influenced on Instagram, you know, let me know, raise your hand, you're watching, you're watching that content and then the person is saying, oh, go to the link in my bio and you go to the link in your bio in, and it's some linktree that may or may not have been updated and that link might take them to Amazon. Take you to Amazon, where their Amazon storefront is like laid out, all for you to have to sort through just to find the product that you were interested in that caught your attention for just a second, that interrupted your entertainment experience that you were there on Instagram to experience, and now you can't even find what it was that caught your attention. You just give up in frustration.   Michelle: What I love about TikTok shop is that you can go from being entertained seeing a shoppable video, seeing something that a creator is promoting, to all the way to checkout in just seconds and back into your entertainment. That experience has very little interruption. So TikTok has several ways to checkout. Essentially, you have the opportunity to go from a shoppable video to a TikTok shop where you can see that brand's full lineup of offerings, and go to the product detail page where you can then check out. But this is not typically the shopping experience. Usually, it's you see a video. It takes you directly to the product detail page and then you just check out. These are the things and ways that you can build your brand on TikTok shop directly. So let's talk about the customer journey on TikTok versus Amazon. So previously TikTok, when it was just a social media channel, sat a little bit higher up in the customer journey. So if you guys aren't familiar, the customer journey is this idea of a funnel or this process where somebody goes from awareness to consideration, to purchase, to customer service, to going deeper in their rebuy or loyalty to that specific brand. So previously, TikTok the app, the social media side of TikTok was just in the awareness phase, the awareness and consideration phase. Just like Instagram, it was like a place of discovery, a place of entertainment, a place to maybe get educated, but it wasn't a place to purchase. That was where you would go to Amazon, and Amazon fit squarely in the consideration phase, like I need more information, I'm aware of my need already and then I'm going to purchase. So essentially, Amazon is solution solving. It's a search engine for buying. Customers are already aware of a need. They search, research and buy on Amazon.   Michelle: Buyers don't hang out on Amazon for fun or entertainment, despite Amazon's best efforts with Amazon Lives, Amazon Post, Amazon Inspire, and that's really why TikTok shop has taken over in that regard. Not necessarily like I'm not saying that Amazon's going away anytime soon. Obviously that's a huge opportunity, but TikTok shop now owns the entire customer journey, from awareness through consideration, purchase, the customer service experience, all the way to rebuy opportunities, average order value increases, um rebuy rates, all sorts of things that TikTok shop makes available to sellers to be able to do and accomplish all within the TikTok shop platform. Are you guys seeing the potential and the opportunity here? And, as a marketer, this is why I'm so passionate about it, because if you own the awareness, if you are the one creating the awareness of the need and you immediately go into a checkout scenario, you win. The checkout is not okay we're making you aware and then you're being taken to a page where you and 100 other competitors are then brought up with different options and people are overwhelmed with options. It's not like that. It's literally going from awareness to checkout to back to entertainment in a matter of seconds. So TikTok really comes down to need awareness. Their focus is on entertainment and education and their goal is to keep users on the platform with their addictive algorithms. Users are made aware of products and the purchases is done within TikTok shop with quick checkouts and then buyers are back to scrolling within seconds. So that's really kind of the crux of TikTok shop there and live selling. I don't know if you guys have seen have been on the platform yet, but live selling it really had its heyday. I feel like you know as far as US consumer behavior goes in, like the late eighties, early nineties, Saturday morning infomercials Anybody remember those?   Michelle: I know I was like, always sucked in. I was always sucked into those Um. And then there's QVC and home shopping network where, you know, basically little ladies hang out to buy kitchen kitchenware, but TikTok shop, specifically, is bringing live, selling back, and it's crazy's crazy, the amount of organic viewers you get checking out your products live, seeing what you have to offer live, you know, and it's a form of entertainment, so they're already on there to be entertained and then they get to watch you pitch whatever it is that you have. That's kind of crazy. And also creators we have this. Creators have been kind of like put up on this pedestal as influencers, right, and this kind of title and with that has come a little bit of a combative nature. When it comes to working with brands, right, how many of you have worked with an influencer where you've reached out to them, you've tried to recruit them and they're charging like a couple hundred dollars of post to like two thousand dollars a post, five thousand dollars a post for the honor to get to work with them. Anybody experience that. And then you're like, um, what did I get from that? I got a post. Did it do anything, right? So the awesome, the awesome thing with working with creators now is that they essentially become affiliates because TikTok is rewarding them for sales that they make through the platform. So creators are now motivated to work with brands and to push products and seek out opportunities. It's no longer just like oh well, I'm a creator and so my creative needs are above your needs as a brand. Now they're willing to be more collaborative with brands in and focusing on content that converts and that drives sales, because, at the end of the day, they want to make money right and we all want to make money, and so it makes it more of a win-win relationship. So that's one of my favorite things about this kind of shift is it goes from the honor of working with a creator and an influencer to now like okay, we're affiliates and we're in this together.   Michelle: So there's kind of four native ways to discover and buy on TikTok. There's the browse area, which is shoppable videos. That's what you would generally see if you're just scrolling through TikTok. You're going to have some content that is just entertainment content. You're going to have content that's educational and informative and that sync to and our shoppable videos, basically, and shop pages. That's where you know brands show up with their brand presence, um, live shopping, like we discussed, and the shop tab. So that's the new kind of search functionality within TikTok. That's all about finding and discovery and searching for solutions. It's kind of crazy, but TikTok has now become a search engine for a certain demographic. Anybody who's less than 25 years old, instead of going to Google with their questions first, they're going to TikTok with their questions first, and it used to be that videos were what was served first in the search results and now it's product. Are you picking up? What I'm putting down? Like this is this is a significant opportunity. This is such a crazy shift and I will say that every almost like 80 to 90% of the in TikTok shop contacts that I have were recently recruited from Amazon. Like Amazon employees are moving over to TikTok shop just like clawing their way over here. So it's very soon there's gonna be some aspects that are native to Amazon that we'll start seeing show up in TikTok shop, especially this kind of search portion, the shop tab, and then the buying experience, like we've talked about, is very seamless, from the product page to the checkout page. You literally can like sync your Apple Pay with TikTok shop, click the side of your phone gosh and be back to doom scrolling in seconds, if I haven't, you know, beat that into you enough.   Michelle: But let's talk about this idea and this question is TikTok shop just a distraction for you as sellers? I hear this kind of objection a lot, and from really big sellers, and so I'm a little surprised. I'm always a little surprised because, like Kevin said, I think that if you have an opportunity to make money, are you going to say no to that opportunity, especially when it's relatively zero to low cost to get started? You already have inventory. You just bring it over to TikTok. So let's talk about just some case studies really quick. Every time I talk to an Amazon seller who is looking to expand off Amazon or diversify their revenue off Amazon, they're usually happy with like, hey, if I can get 5% of my Amazon sales off Amazon, like my Shopify site or Walmart or Etsy or something, I would be happy if just 5%. So here we have a few sellers and I'm just going to cruise through here. This brand got serious about TikTok shop beginning of April and year to date, they are 8% of their Amazon sales on TikTok shop. This brand launched in September of 2023 with TikTok shop. They're one of my brands and we immediately went viral. Immediately, like the bestseller that we had became a bestseller on TikTok shop and then, as we got to know our audience a lot better and affiliates a lot better, launching products on TikTok shop with them, we saw halo effect on Amazon. Every single time that we launched a new product on TikTok shop it would go viral. It would go viral on Amazon as well. Rank would skyrocket and along with sales. So their year to date revenue is 11%.   Michelle: Our biggest struggle with this brand is every time we go viral. Like it's really hard to forecast inventory for going viral. So we keep running into like our bestsellers going out of stock because they just take off. They just take off, so that I guess that is like one of the sides of TikTok shop that is a warning is that your shop could go viral and with your inventory. This seller I did a big training in Cancun back in February and in and around TikTok shop this seller was doing two sales a day before my training and after that, um, 180 sales in the week following. So I was a little proud of that. And then subsequently, uh, we've been working together and now their brands, their, uh, they have 15% of their total brand revenue, uh, of their Amazon revenue they're making on TikTok shop. I'm not going to talk a lot about these brands, because these brands are just like killing it. They're 16% of Amazon sales for this brand. This brand, gosh, they're just like. I just met with their category manager last week, their new category manager. They're number one in their category on TikTok shop, all of TikTok shop, and their year to date is 17% of their Amazon sales. So I guess you have to ask yourself, like, is it worth getting started? Like, yes, I think the answer is obvious, right, like I'm not doing a sales pitch here guys. I don't like this is you already have the inventory, right? You're already selling on Amazon. It's not too much more difficult to extend, uh, what you're doing and get started with that same inventory on TikTok shop as well. So, but there's some nuances to it and I want to talk about those nuances. So there are some keys that are necessary to a successful setup on TikTok shop. So this is where we're getting a little bit down into some specifics. On setup, I am not walking you through step-by-step a setup step-by-step at this point. This is not necessarily how to. This is more of kind of like lessons learned from setting up over 30 brands personally on TikTok shop and some of the nuances, some of the troubleshooting, some of the kind of like things to avoid, basically from a high level perspective.   Michelle: So this is kind of my setup checklist to be successful, this is what. These are all the things that you have to do one time during a setup. You need to get through your business registration. You need to complete that. You need to link a TikTok social account that is US based based with your TikTok shop seller account that is US based. You need to create or connect a TikTok ads manager to that account ads manager account to your TikTok shop account. You need to get your shipping set up and your listing set up and your content optimized for TikTok shop. You need to import available reviews, meaning, if you have like and this is all legal TikTok shop owns well, TikTok is owned by a company called ByteDance and ByteDance owns lots of different tech companies. One included is the main tool that's used for importing reviews. So if you have a Shopify site or another website with reviews on it, then you can bring those reviews over. If you don't, you can import reviews from Amazon to your website and then import those reviews from Amazon. It's a little bit of a process. It's a process, but you only have to do that once. To help you build up, to start the process of building your review presence, you need to select and implement promotions for your listings, such as pre-shipping with qualifications, product discounts, flash sales. Now the new promo codes that are released, and for select accounts, if you qualify, there's now a customer marketing whole section where you can go back and offer, you know, present offers in app. So showing up in the customer's TikTok inbox, basically like they already bought from you once, or, if they're a potential client, you can get directly inside of TikTok users' inboxes with your offers. My marketing heart, it just loves this from an opportunity perspective and we can actually measure how many sales converted from those messages. I love email marketing, I love SMS marketing, I love all of that, but sometimes we just can't close all the loops. And when we're talking native platforms and the marketing opportunities that are native to that platform, we're able to see all those loops close. When it's when we're talking native platforms and the marketing opportunities that are native to that platform, we're able to see all those loops closed and the associated data with that. So we know what further to invest in, what's working, what's not working, and then, of course, they're the final step in success. A successful setup is making sure that you have an affiliate plan set up for affiliates creators to find your products and to start promoting them and to make sure free samples are available. We'll show that here in a second.   Michelle: Okay, the second thing that you need to make sure that you do is to review the prohibited products list. So just because you can sell something on Amazon and Shopify doesn't mean you can sell it on TikTok shop. And this is probably like the number one thing that I see sellers screw up on, um, that they just like rush to get all of their products on TikTok shop and all of a sudden uh, they didn't ever check prohibited products and all of a sudden their account gets deactivated. Um, because they're promoting products or promoting it in such a way that's against, that's either prohibited products or against community guidelines in how you talk about it. So the most suspensions and account deactivations could be avoided by checking this first. So essentially, just, I mean you could even just search for it TikTok shop prohibited products policy and go on there or also look at their restricted categories on there as well to see is my product a prohibited product? I've been surprised how many products are not allowed on TikTok shop that are allowed on Amazon and, of course, on Shopify. You can sell whatever the heck you want to. So it's definitely one of those things that just because you can sell it somewhere doesn't mean you can sell it on TikTok shop.   Michelle: And this is just from a having been through it so many times. Business registration is not what it used to be. In September, I was able to get just like a ton of brands on TikTok shop with very little effort. Now there's a few more steps. Now there's a few things that kind of slow people down. It's amazing to me how many sellers just like give up. They just roll over and they're just like oh no, I can't get it to work. And I'm like guys, you are Amazon sellers, it is selling on Amazon is not an easy thing. Why are we giving up so easily? Have some like, have some resilience here. Also, TikTok shop like says oh, your account setup failed. I wish they would use different language, because sometimes it's not true failure and sometimes it's like they're just um, you get to a certain place in the process and then the system is moving you forward, but it needs more information, like you need to submit additional documents or you need to submit them in a certain way, and so it says failure, but really it just means like you need to go add more, add more documentation or whatever it is that they're actually asking for. So my advice to you is just keep pushing forward, keep pushing through that. It is worth it in the end. And just as a little like hack is any requested documentation, even if it says that they accept PDFs and PNGs, only submit them as JPEGs. Like their system, their bots read JPEGs and more often than not they don't read PDFs. So just, even if it says it'll accept a PDF, just submit it as a JPEG. Okay, cause it will help you. And especially if you're talking to support, support. It's so crazy because support can't see submitted PDFs or PNGs, but it can see submitted JPEGs. Does that make sense? So that's a little, a little note for you to take and make sure that you're doing Okay.   Michelle: This is relatively new and this has to be. This is around community guidelines. Community guidelines were updated mid last month and essentially it's just saying hey, this is the way that we behave on our platform. So there's, they become a lot more strict about what creators as well as sellers can and can't say on their product. You know, on the platform and that includes your listings and what you say about your products, especially, um, you know if something has an effect on weight or weight loss, physical performance or physiological effects or changes. So in this example, I had a seller reach out to me and they're like I don't know what I did wrong, I don't know why this account is frozen, or this product is frozen, I don't know what's wrong with it. And all I had to do was read through the title to see what the issue was. They're essentially saying this eliminates snoring and enhances facial structure and post-workout recovery claim, claim, claim, claim, claim, like you're physiological effects, physical performance, eliminate snoring. You can't say that on Amazon had. Like how can you say that? Like you can't say that on TikTok shop either? Um, and if you have any product in and around weight loss, I'm not saying it's not possible to sell on TikTok shop, it absolutely is. But how you talk about it is really critical. You cannot say weight loss, you cannot say metabolism, fat burning oh my gosh. I had another brand that was just like beside themselves. They were so like offended that TikTok shop suspended their product, their you know key seller, and I was looking through their account. It was like weight loss, metabolism, dah, dah, dah. And I'm like you can't say those things. You. You failed TikTok, you know like. You showed up like, oh well, we can sell it on Shopify. Yes, you can sell it on Shopify, because on Shopify you can say whatever the heck you want about your product. There's nobody policing what you can and can't say on your Shopify site. But this is their market and so they get to say what you can and can't say. And it's not just what you say in the text, in your title, in your bullet points, it's also what you say in the images, on the products themselves as well. So if you have packaging that you're showing and it's making claims. You got to scrub that. You got to like, get rid of it if you have infographics. So that's why I say you're not just pulling over everything that you've created for your Amazon listing or your Shopify listing. You got to be really careful in what you're bringing over and being aware of these community guidelines and what you can and can't say. These are the main ones. It's worth looking at, it's worth reading through and I do talk about that extensively in my course where I detail and outline it, but these are the top ones.   Michelle: Okay, focus on your bestsellers. I often see that the second somebody gets started on TikTok shop, they bring their whole category, their whole catalog of offerings over at once and I really advise you to just test the opportunity and to learn the platform and which of your products is the best opportunity first. So too many products are a distraction to affiliates and your ops team. So, like in this example, this brand brought over gosh all of their products and anytime that they were doing creator outreach they basically all of their creator and targeted plans was just like hey, here's everything that we sell and that's a lot, that's too much. So instead we shifted their focus to okay, what's your best seller on Amazon, what's the one with the best reviews, the strongest call to action, the most obvious for how it helps a consumer? And they're like, okay, this one, their free sample request took off, the affiliate performance took off, their sales took off. So just don't flood. It's a distraction for your team. It's a distraction when you start to reach out to affiliates, so just focus on your best sellers first. Now hear me out. This is probably the biggest warning that I have for you. Second to prohibited products okay, so this is probably the biggest area that I want you to be really careful with. And don't use the shortcuts, okay. So oftentimes I see that sellers are you're on Amazon, you're on Shopify and there are apps available within TikTok shop where you can just sync your Shopify account or sync your Amazon account and sync over your listings. So all of your listing content immediately gets imported into TikTok shop, and I have seen so many issues with this. Like I've said so many times, there's things that you're saying on your listings that you can't say in a TikTok shop, and what happens, guys, is that your listings are not reviewed by human beings, right, they're reviewed by bots, and what I have seen happen so many times is that people have seen those listings and they bring over their entire catalog, like we just talked about, and they're making claims or bringing over prohibited products or something like that that they didn't know.   Michelle: I didn't know and immediately they get account violations and account violations and they get a million account violations and then their account gets suspended because there's a limit to your account violations that you can receive, and then you lose your account, your account gets deactivated and it's over before you begin. So that's an extreme example, but I have seen that too many times to count what also happens, especially in the case of Shopify. For example, if you're syncing your listings, let's say you want to make a change to your TikTok shop listing, like your price or your title or something like that, because your listings are synced with these apps. You can't do that because Shopify and the Shopify listing owns the TikTok listing, so you have to go and make the change on Shopify If you want to make that change, show up on TikTok. You see how that's a problem, right? So and it's not an easy fix, it's not, it's not just like a quick separation, um, because I have a seller, like I've talked about. He's number one in his category and he set this up, his like. When he first got set up, an account manager told him to do this and they didn't know. These account managers have no clue, they really don't, um, and so he is dealing with this issue. If he were to try to separate at this point, he would have to create a new ASIN, for lack of a better term. A new listing for one of his best sellers and one of the big areas of social proof on TikTok shop is to see how many people have purchased the product. He would lose all of that history on that listing that now has like a hundred thousand purchases. So, yeah, it's, it's like a serious deal. So please don't do that. If you're wanting any kind of true shortcut, use the bulk uploading options. This is new the import product upload accelerator. Go this route if you're looking for shortcuts. But, like I said, I really do want you to like set up your listings manually first, at least the first couple, so you understand what TikTok is really looking for, so you can then go and add more products in the future.   Michelle: Offer free shipping. Oh, my goodness, we're running out of time, guys, we'll send you these slides. Basically, bottom line, you set up the free shipping opportunities within the promotions tab and not when you're setting up your shipping templates and your shipping solutions. So it's a promotion and you can apply all sorts of qualifications to qualify for free shipping and fulfilled by TikTok is now a thing, and they're gonna start pushing this really, really hard. So start with your Amazon inventory, start selling via Amazon MCF syncing with TikTok shop. Once you've proven the opportunity for your brand, immediately apply for FBT as soon as you set up your TikTok shop account so that when you prove like, hey, is this an opportunity for me, cause MCF is expensive, you want to get that inventory into FBT and start taking advantage of the opportunities and like super cheap pricing that they have for fulfillment over there. Okay, I'm going to cruise through this, but, just like I showed you, there's kind of like the setup checklist and then there's the ongoing success checklist. This is what you need to do ongoing, daily, weekly, monthly to be able to make sales on TikTok shop. Really, what it comes down to is working with creators, making sure you have your free samples turned on. I have my three S's to targeted outreach, which is search, sort and then save. And just a warning if you are using bots or planning to use bots, that gosh. They've now put regulations in place where new sellers are limited and restricted on how many people they can reach out to because of these messaging bots that are out there. So I really recommend focusing on target collaborations versus and reaching out to creators that way, versus messaging and spamming methods. So this is my search and sort and save method. Essentially, you're under the find creator tab and you're searching via relevant search terms for your brand or your category. You're sorting I like to sort by GMB, and if they're fast growing that's even better, because then they're hungry, they're starting to see success, but they're not so successful yet that they you can't get the time of day with them. And then you hit the little save button over here and then when you go to target collaboration up here, you can import your saved folks I recommend at least 50 per day that you're reaching out to via this message.   Kevin King: Thanks everybody for showing up today. We'll be back again next month to do this again on a whole new topic. Remember there's a replay of this, if you missed part of it, in Freedom Ticket inside the Helium 10. So if you're a member of Helium 10 at any level, there's a little button somewhere up around the top in the education section or resources section that says Freedom Ticket. You'll be able to find this recording in a few weeks in there, added as a permanent addition to the Freedom Ticket. So thanks everybody for coming today and thanks again, Michelle.   Michelle: Thank you, bye, guys.

Dr. Angela Thyer and Judy Simon discuss their book 'Getting to Baby' and the importance of nutrition and lifestyle in fertility. They share their backgrounds and how they came together to help women improve their nutrition and health for better fertility outcomes. The book covers the connection between food and fertility, the importance of whole foods, debunking misconceptions about diet and fertility, and the benefits of intuitive eating and cooking. They emphasize the need for diversity in food choices and the impact of processed foods on fertility. The book also includes practical tips and recipes to support a healthy pregnancy journey. The conversation covers topics such as the importance of breakfast and meal timing, the impact of nutrition on fertility, the role of integrative medicine in fertility treatment, and the power of lifestyle choices in influencing fertility outcomes. The guests emphasize the importance of combining foods and the role of vegetables in supporting digestion and overall health. They also discuss the impact of stress, sleep, and epigenetics on fertility. The conversation highlights the need for a multidisciplinary approach to fertility treatment and the importance of finding a supportive healthcare team.   Takeaways Nutrition and lifestyle play a crucial role in fertility and improving fertility outcomes. Eating whole foods, including a variety of fruits, vegetables, plant-based proteins, and whole grains, is important for fertility. There are many misconceptions about diet and fertility, such as the need to cut out carbs or follow specific diets. It's important to focus on nourishing the body with whole foods. Intuitive eating and cooking skills are valuable in creating a healthy and sustainable approach to nutrition. Diversity in food choices is essential for optimal fertility and overall health. Processed foods can negatively impact fertility, and it's important to prioritize whole foods. The book provides practical tips, recipes, and a six-week blueprint to support a healthy pregnancy journey. Breakfast is an important meal for fertility and overall health. It is best to have a substantial breakfast with protein, fiber, and vegetables. Meal timing is crucial, and it is recommended to have more calories earlier in the day and fewer at night. Combining foods, especially vegetables, can support digestion and nutrient absorption. Stress, sleep, and lifestyle choices have a significant impact on fertility outcomes. Epigenetics plays a role in fertility, and lifestyle choices can influence gene expression. A multidisciplinary approach to fertility treatment, including integrative medicine, can provide comprehensive support. Finding a supportive healthcare team is essential for navigating the fertility journey.   Guest Bio: Judy Simon Judy Simon, MS, RDN, CD, CHES is an award winning registered dietitian nutritionist who specializes in reproductive health. She is the founder of Mind Body Nutrition, PLLC and a clinical instructor at the University of Washington. Judy's expertise includes fertility, PCOS, eating disorders, weight inclusive medicine and reproductive health.  Judy has held leadership roles in the American Society of Reproductive Medicine Nutrition Special Interest Group and is a Fellow of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics.  Judy integrates mindfulness, intuitive eating, eating competence, while taking a non-judgmental, inclusive down approach to help people have healthier, more fertile lives.  Judy is the co-founder of Food For Fertility program and co-author of the upcoming (April, 2024) book Getting to Baby A Food-first Fertility Plan to Improve Your Odds and Shorten Your Time to Pregnancy, Ben Bella Publisher   Guest Bio: Angela Thyer Angela Thyer, MD is board certified in Reproductive Endocrinology and Infertility, Ob/Gyn and Lifestyle Medicine. She is a founding partner of Seattle Reproductive Medicine. Dr. Thyer completed her undergraduate education at Duke University, medical school at the University of Cincinnati College of Medicine, residency at Oregon Health and Science University, and fellowship at the University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio. She completed The Culinary Coaching program through the Institute of Lifestyle Medicine in 2020 and became a certified plant-based chef through Rouxbe in 2022. She and Judy Simon, MS, RDN created the Food for Fertility program and have co-authored a book coming out in 2024, Getting to Baby: A Food-First Fertility Plan to Improve Your Odds and Shorten Your Time to Pregnancy which highlights the best foods to optimize fertility.   Website & Social media links (Facebook, instagram, twitter)   Instagram: @angelathyermd Website: angelathyermd.com     For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   Click here to find out how to get the first chapter of "The Way of Fertility" for free.   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/         Transcript:   Michelle: So Angela and Judy, welcome. Angela: Thank you so much. We're excited to be here, Michelle. Michelle: So I'd love for you guys to give a background first. , I'm very excited to be talking about your new book, Getting to Baby. I would love for you first to share your background so people can know more about you and what got you to doing this type of work. Angela: Okay. Sure. I'm a reproductive endocrinologist and infertility specialist. So first I trained in OBGYN and then specialized in reproductive endocrine and infertility. And then I got board certified in lifestyle medicine. So, which is a more holistic kind of way to look at all healthcare, more of a preventive lens of like, how can we look at lifestyle measures to, you know, really help people in all phases of their life. Angela: And I've always been interested in food, nutrition, exercise. And so over the years, it just became a bigger and[00:01:00] bigger part of my practice. And I've always been interested in obviously hormones, but metabolism and Judy and I started working together at the university of Washington. And we found we had this common interest in really helping women, you know, work together to improve their nutrition and health, which subsequently leads to improvement in their fertility. Michelle: Oh, totally. Judy: And I'm a registered dietitian, as Angela mentioned, and my master's is in community health education. And I sort of went through traditional training, and when I came back and re entered, you know, medicine, gosh, about 20 ish years ago, all of a sudden, PCOS and all these things that I had never really learned about just came front and forward. Judy: And so I was fortunate to connect up with Angela and really do the deep dive into, Hey, what do we know about insulin resistance? How is this affecting fertility? And these were things that traditionally I hadn't been taught. [00:02:00]So really, I think we kind of joined each other's worlds. You know, I joined American Society of Reproductive Medicine and, you know, joined all the fertility docs. Judy: And You know, Angela would come to the nutrition conferences. So we did a lot of cross pollination and from that we went off and both started into private practices and she'd refer these amazing patients and we decided, wow, we're seeing them one at a time. Wouldn't it just be the coolest thing if we could start classes? Judy: So about 12 ish years ago, we started the food for fertility classes where we brought women in who were trying to conceive. Many of them had PCOS, endometriosis. unexplained, lots of different diagnosis. And that's who we brought the food and the people and the lifestyle into the classroom, which is really why we wrote the book. Judy: It's kind of, we took all our years of experience, science and knowledge and said, let's make it accessible to more people. Michelle: That's awesome. And so [00:03:00] talk about the book. What's in the book? And obviously it's for people trying to conceive, getting to baby. What were the top things?  Angela: Yeah. Well, we, we started off by, you know, kind of, we always want people to understand the whys, you know, why this, why that what's the connection, what's the underlying biology and physiology? And then what evidence do we know? A lot of nutritional studies about fertility or observational studies, like they'll a population will be observed and they'll say, okay, people who ate these kinds of diets or these kinds of foods had higher fertility and more successful outcomes than people who ate this kind of diet. Angela: So, you know, we, we want to, wanted to present all that information. So people kind of have background and good knowledge and can kind of say, oh, okay, well. Maybe that would be a good idea for me. You know, it's not, it's, it's a broad spectrum of what, you know, a good diet could look like. It's not just one thing. Angela: Obviously [00:04:00] mainly plant forward. Cause I think we all need to eat more fruits and vegetables and plant based foods. But there is room, you know, for some animal foods too, especially things like fish and whole fat dairy, which have shown to increase some fertility benefits. So, you know, we kind of go through all the food groups and talk about what's, what we, where we have evidence, what's good, what's not so good and what vitamins and minerals and nutrients they're adding. Angela: And then, you know, some of the biggest things that we're like, if you want to incorporate this, it's a really, it's a how to. Right. So we wanted to make it like accessible in this sense that anybody at home could be like, Oh, okay. I, gosh, I just want to add one little thing this week. What would I add? What can, what's my takeaway? Angela: What's my smart goal? So people can kind of set their own goals and try to move forward with that, making a little progress at a time. And then the greatest thing I think is sharing stories from our patients who are just fabulous[00:05:00] women who've been on their own journey. And we had so many stories, we couldn't even share them all in the book. Angela: But kind of telling these journeys that sometimes took months, sometimes took years and how they were able to incorporate changes and see changes in themselves. and feel increased energy and then kind of have improved fertility. Maybe if they had a partner, you know, their partner's health was also improving at the same time. Angela: And so many of them were successful either With natural conception, or if they were infertility treatments, having better success in those treatments and making better quality embryos that we were like, wow, you know, that's really what's in the book. So as much as we could share and keep it accessible and reasonable in length. Angela: That's, that's what the book's about. Michelle: I found it very user friendly and I really enjoyed the image of the plate and how half of it was greens, which is great because I do believe that it's so important to get the greens. And there's so many nutrients that you can get[00:06:00] from that. And you talked about some misconceptions too, like on treating PCOS and like common misconceptions on what to eat for fertility. Michelle: So I'd love to touch upon that. Judy: Yeah, well, one of the things that we tried to bring out in the book is when we first started doing our classes, a lot of the reasons women would be referred to us as we'll just go lose weight. So nothing, you know, focusing on their health and we're like, Oh no, no, no, this is not a weight loss class. Judy: This is totally about how to nourish yourself. And actually. Take away the shame and guilt in, you know, whatever size body you have being able to get the benefits of the nutrition and the lifestyle. Right? So, for example there's a lot of people that would come in with a whole list of foods that they thought they shouldn't eat because somebody told them that. Judy: And we're like, well, are you allergic to them? No. Well, okay, you know, here's a safe And that's what we tried to do in the [00:07:00] book. Like showing in all these different, you know, sure, maybe you can't tolerate dairy. Here's a sub, here's something else you can, you can place out so that everybody would feel included, that anybody could be in the classes, read the book and really get the benefit out of it. Judy: So when, when you talk about myths, probably the biggest one is, you know so many women are told cut out carbs. Cut out carbs and we're like, Oh no. Well, what's in whole grains and ancient grains. We know those inositols we hear about in PCOS. Guess where they come from? White beans, buckwheat. So we're saying where can you get these ancient grains are just so filled with minerals and also really showing that looking at the quality of carbs that you're choosing most of the time is actually going to be beneficial. Judy: And this is kind of relief for women to hear like, I don't have to starve myself. I get to eat and try new things. Michelle: Yeah. That's such a good point. And also, cause a [00:08:00] lot of times when people have carbs, it's simple carbs or juices where you're taking basically, even if it's fresh juices, like we're really meant to have the whole fruit, right? The fiber like, and digest it slowly so that it's not a sugar spike. I'd love for you to talk about that too, the importance of, of actually having the whole food. Angela: Yeah, we definitely talk about kind of it being a whole food diet because that is so important and The issue with I mean, yes, you can get some of the nutrients if you juice But you're also gonna get mainly sugar without the fiber if you've removed the fiber. So the fiber is so important both to slow down your digestion and really pay attention to gut health. Angela: And I know you focus a lot on gut health. You know, that's where so much of our health overall starts. And there's so many connections between the gut and the mind and the body and the hormones and everything else, every, every system. And so, having that [00:09:00] fiber in your diet, really from whole foods. I mean, especially plant based foods, right? Angela: Because animal foods don't have fiber, but the plant based foods really then is is great food for the microbiomes, the microbiome, our microbiome and the bacteria, the 3 trillion bacteria that live in our gut. And it helps create, you know, it's more anti inflammatory because so many people kind of can get. Angela: almost a chronic inflammation from not eating enough fiber, not feeding their microbiome. And then that can lead to more issues in more body systems that they may not even be aware of. But nobody is, you know, advertising whole foods, like whole foods. So much of what people see and kind of the noise that feeds in is just, you know, everything else that's marketed in a box or a bag or somebody. Angela: And so that's what, and so sometimes those help people put health claims on other products that [00:10:00] aren't whole foods and then whole foods kind of get neglected. And so, yeah, we definitely want to say, you know, it's important. And we talk about eating the rainbow and the colors because each colors, providing different phytonutrients. Angela: And so, you know, you want that broad range because the more diversity you have in your fruits and vegetables, the more diverse a microbiome you're going to develop, the better protection for your immune system and just make everything else work better in your whole body. Michelle: I love that you talk about diversity because actually a lot of people end up developing sensitivities even if it's healthy food that they eat all the time and it's important to have diversity because it really allows the body to get so many different benefits and also not get too intolerant of one specific thing. Michelle: The body likes diversity. Judy: Absolutely. And we really wanted people to feel inclusive with the book. So that's why there's so much [00:11:00]culinary medicine, like just basic skills. Here's how you can throw something together without even a recipe, you know, just really, you know, five steps to a great salad. What should it have, you know, different things like that. Judy: And we also wanted it to really highlight the, All the global cuisines. And so for example I see a large population of South Asian women, right? And so there's, there, there always were like their diets too high in carbs. And we talked about what are all the wonderful things that herbs that you're using, the dolls, you know, the pulses, but we tried to make sure we had things from all regions because unfortunately a lot of people here in the medical world, like, Oh, just eat the Mediterranean diet. Judy: We're like, Oh no, no, no way. That that's so exclusive. It's not inclusive. We want to talk about, you know, foods from, you know, West Africa or Central America, a lot of the indigenous healthy foods, and then also what's seasonally available. And so one of the things that we really tried to [00:12:00]share is a lot of different types of foods. Judy: Simple preparation, but let people start where they're comfortable. So if you're a chef that only has three or four recipes and you're still sort of using some are processed foods, maybe they'll start with adding a soup or adding some vegetable dishes or adding a salad and letting them know you're going to get benefits from those first steps. Judy: Because some people feel like, like I just talked to someone, she goes, I'm trying to be all in, you know, trying to be perfect. Do you know what I mean? Michelle: Yeah, Judy: And that's stressful. It's stressful to feel like you're getting a grade on your diet. And we want people to feel like it's fun. They're having a date night with their partner and maybe they're trying a new recipe in the book. Judy: Or they got inspired because there is a lot of pressure when people are trying to conceive. And the book is also for those people who are like, Hey, we want to get pregnant in the next year. What's the path to a healthy pregnancy? We have no idea how long it's going to take, but [00:13:00] what's going to prepare us? Judy: And you know, Michelle, that like 50 percent of pregnancies are unplanned. So a lot of people, you know, maybe they're exposed to a lot of those fertility disruptors, and if they would have known even a few months in advance, they could have decreased some of the risks, you know that could impact their fertility and pregnancy. Michelle: definitely. I remember seeing something, it was about a burger or like a chicken sandwich or something. It was a sandwich with a bun that the woman just kept in her closet and just saw what happened and it was not, it was not good. Breaking down and I'm like, whoa That is crazy. Like things are supposed to break down if they don't break down and they don't yeah Just break down like what happens in your body So talk about the importance of eating whole foods. Michelle: Listen, we're going to have processed food once in a while. It's not like, you know, end all be all like, it's not one thing or another, obviously, [00:14:00] but talk about the importance of really being intentional about choosing more whole foods in your diet.  Angela: Well, you know, I do think, I think that everybody's so different in what they eat, but I think that, yeah, the ultra processed foods and processed grains, so like breads, cereals, pastas, Anything it's just so it it's everywhere, right? It's it's you can't get away from it and it's become normalized And it and so it has become acceptable and ordinary And the problem with those foods is yeah, you don't need to say i'm not never going to eat that again But it replaces it, you know, it takes the place of whole foods. Angela: And so I think you know Where do you get whole foods? Well, it's hard to get whole foods You You know if you're eating If you're buying foods at convenience stores or fast food restaurants or even regular restaurants Sometimes i'm surprised that menus don't have Kind of like more vegetables available when we talk about the fertility plate[00:15:00] and the whole plate being half Vegetables, right? Angela: You're not going to get that in a restaurant, like the restaurant usually. So, you know, we, we have talked to women, we didn't really talk about this that much in the book, but like, I think some of the women gave us examples of, you know, planning when you go to a restaurant, gosh, what can I eat from this menu that would be more of a whole food, what are the, sometimes the side vegetables are something they'll order from some of those things to say like, yeah, I don't need to necessarily go for the most. Indulgent luxurious meal. I want to go for the whole foods cause I know that's what my body needs. So we talk about being intuitive eater or competent eater. It, you know, I don't think this is taught well in schools. So, you know, to, to be honest, nobody, it's nobody's fault. Like where you are, it's a growth opportunity for everybody to be like, Hey, I didn't really get this education growing up. Angela: My parents worked. I didn't, you know, I didn't cook that much growing up, but now I'm an adult. And I need to really learn about [00:16:00] nutrition and what my body needs and how to heal myself through food. And what that might mean is I need to cook more. And if I don't know how to cook more with whole foods, You know, there's opportunities to learn. Angela: There's so much now available on YouTube, or that's both good and not so good, but you know, you can find the good, the good things and learn to cook with whole foods and buy things like our book, which are trying to teach people almost some intuitive cooking skills. Cause you don't always want to be cooking from a recipe. Angela: You want to get some basic staples and some comfort in the kitchen and some things you really are good at, and then always build new and add new. Okay. But yeah, so that was like one of the tenants of our philosophy of how we taught was, let's talk about, you know, building a meal. Let's talk about what vegetables are going to be in the meal, what protein is going to be in the meal. Angela: And for us, that was mainly going to be a [00:17:00] plant based protein. So either beans, lentils. tofu or tempeh or edamame, so a soy based protein, or fish, since all of those have been shown to increase fertility. And then whole grains, those ancient grains, so not processed and kind of putting that all together and nuts and seeds and other things that provide those denser nutrients. Angela: And really starting with like cutting things up, like, okay, let's prep everything. Let's do the mise en place. Let's get everything ready. Let's plan meals. So you're going to have leftovers. because it takes work and effort. You don't want to put all that effort in and then only eat once. So you want to have some leftover meals that you can repurpose throughout the week or free some of these meals that you're going to be able to then thaw out next week or next month when you're more time pressed, and you know, you've got your own freezer meal that you've prepared that you're going to be able to thaw out and cook and have a nutritious, delicious, quick meal, right? Angela: So it's just a, I think it's a mindset, right? [00:18:00] It's a different way to think. And, and everybody can get there and just build that knowledge and build those skills. And that's exciting. Michelle: It is exciting. I find that whenever you're learning something new, like you, you make it more complicated in your mind. You're like, oh, I have to do this whole thing. But you don't realize, like as you learn it, you could really strategize and make it so much easier and cheaper. You could save money that way. Judy: Absolutely. Michelle, you bring up a really good point. And what's really fun is a lot of the women who've taken classes or patients of ours, like even after like two years after they have their baby, I'll get an email. You know, I saved all those recipes from class and I still love the, you know, the quinoa mango black bean salad. Judy: It's so delicious in the summer. I take it to parties or one patient just wrote me about the soca bread made out of chickpeas that they start to add them to their repertoire or you want to increase their self efficacy, their confidence and their competency. And then when they do eat out, you know, maybe [00:19:00] they do broaden and they, you know, they go for an Indian meal or an Asian meal and they know like, Hey, I'm going to order one whole vegetarian. Judy: So I get more broccoli and veggies like they know how to order and feel good. When they go out or they travel, you know, how can I take that and keep it better? And, you know, just really, you know, giving them that support. And so in the book, for some people, this is really new. We kind of do like a six week blueprint, but we also say like, If you feel pretty good on some of the skills and you've checked the box, awesome. Judy: Work on some of those things that you, you want to build up stronger in your repertoire. And if you feel like you need more time, I remember when our class switched to virtual and we started to go to every other week, the women were like, this is kind of good because I have more time to work on my goals. Judy: I kind of like that other, remember the every other week model? You could do that with a six week plan. Maybe I'm going to try to do this over twelve weeks, you know, three months, give myself some time to To try new things.[00:20:00] And the thing is you're getting the benefit with every step you take. There's a benefit, you know? Judy: And so the cool thing for us is sometimes at the end of the class, women who didn't eat in the morning, they like. You know, we started eating in the morning because of class and the food was really good. They started regulating their cycles, Michelle. It was amazing. And one of our last live classes before COVID, I remember one table of four, they were all kind of waiting to get their cycles and things and getting ready for IVF. Judy: And they all went on to conceive. They all got their cycles and went on to conceive. And that was just, the cost of food and, you know, putting a little bit of time in so that lifestyle does make a difference whether someone's going for art treatment or they're, you know, they're, you know, they're just maximizing their fertility options. Michelle: Yeah, there was actually a study on girls in college that skipped breakfast and how it impacted their cycles I thought that was interesting[00:21:00] Judy: I would guess negatively. I'm thinking if Michelle: Negatively, yes negatively. Yeah. Yeah, Judy: You know, I just want to check. Michelle: They most of them started regular and it they became irregular. Judy: You know, and people are getting into a lot of fads where they're really time boxing their food. I just talked to someone in a smaller body and she says, I'm trying to eat clean. So I only eat between this time and this time. I go, Michelle: Mm hmm Judy: you should eat when you're hungry. Your body needs nourishment all day, not just eight hours. Judy: So sometimes we see people that are going to overboard. And they're restricting, and then their reproductive axis is not getting the nutrients it needs. And I'm like, that's not what you want to do for ag health. That's not what you want to do for reproductive health. If you feel cold at night and you're, and, and you know, and as we know with, you know, acupuncture and Chinese medicine, energy is such an important concept. Judy: So if you're freezing all of a sudden, and you're starving [00:22:00] yourself, you're not nourishing your body. Michelle: Absolutely. And actually in Ayurvedic medicine, they say that when the sun is out, that is when, because we, you know, we, we respond to the elements. And when the sun is out, especially like around 12 PM, you should have your largest meal because it increases your own digestive fire because we get influenced by nature. Michelle: And actually the morning you should have breakfast, you should have food during the day when the digestive fire is. Increase the most and when you shouldn't is as it gets darker like a couple hours before you go to sleep That's when you can give your body a break. So it kind of According to Ayurveda, it's a little bit more flipped than what's typically done where people skip breakfast. Angela: Right. And, and, you know, that, that exactly parallels some of the metabolic studies, right? So what Ayurvedic medicine is known for so long, right? And then Western medicine has to come and prove it that like our digestion is[00:23:00] better in the morning and the way glucose and, and. nutrients are processed in the morning is better when we have more energy and we're more active throughout the day. Angela: And then at night, things are winding down and slowing down and you want your body to relax for sleep and not be digesting a big meal. And, and we do talk about that, but it is really hard for people to flip to try and get more calories and earlier in the day when fewer at night when the typical pattern is, is the opposite. Michelle: and it's going to give them a lot more productivity and energy to have a good breakfast because you know, protein, you got those good fiber and vegetables and berries and, really start your day right. Judy: We encourage people if they're really set in a way, we're like, we'll do it as an experiment. Be curious. Try it on the weekend. Maybe try it on the weekend because you don't want to change your flow. See how your energy feels, especially when people are telling us they're fatigued. Judy: They're like, I'm so tired. And it's [00:24:00] like, and most of their energy intake is at night. They wake up not hungry. You know, we do try, you know, try to flip that around and that's part of that intuitive eating and eating competence and see where your body, because really people know a lot about their body and so we want them to be in tune to that too and trust that. Angela: And I was just going to add that, you know, sometimes people have these ideas of what a typical breakfast, lunch, and dinner is and what food should be part of those meals. And we say, Hey, that does not have to be the case either. I love a breakfast salad. I love eating my leftover dinner from the night before for breakfast. Angela: If I've made something delicious, I made this great stir fry and I've had a little bit because it's late, but I'm like, I want to have that for breakfast. I'm going to have a big bowl, you know, so I love having those other things early in the day because I do feel like it gives me great energy. And then the other thing that we talk about is, you know, the[00:25:00] walking after meals and especially getting outside early in the morning and getting that sunlight to really Start your day and, and get your clock going and how important those rhythms can be to recognize that you have, your body has a rhythm, sleep consistency is important, exercise and movement throughout the day is important, all these other things that we want to build in, you know, to our base for overall wellness to support fertility. Michelle: Yeah. I love it. I love it that you're a doctor and you're interested in this because unfortunately it's not as common. Like people don't know about all of these things about really connecting with nature and the nutrition aspect of it. So it's amazing. It's so well rounded because you have like so many different backgrounds and perspectives on Judy: We, we, we, yeah, we try to bring it all together and that's why this book would have been much longer if our publisher didn't say stop, you know, it was like twice as long. You'll see when you're writing your book, you want to share everything. And so we did include [00:26:00] two chapters on like boosters and disruptors, you know, talking about stress and sleep. Judy: And then also some of the disruptors like, you know, alcohol, cannabis, endocrine disruptors, because we didn't want to scare people, but we felt they needed to know. And you know, science based, evidence based, but we did put it at the end. You know, we really focus on the food and feeding yourself because really that's what our program is all about. Judy: But we find that when they put it all together and they get to those boosters and they add the movement and the stress and so many of our patients, patients who do acupuncture will say, well, that's one of the ways I always say, what do you get out of it? Cause I always want to know. And they go, Oh man, I'm such a good place to do. Judy: I leave in my stress level is so much better. I go, then that's something you want to include in, in, in what you're doing for your health. If you have the privilege and you have the accessibility to it. So we, we try to make everything accessible. Because there's so [00:27:00] many women and men who don't have access to medical care when it comes to fertility. Judy: It's really the underprivileged do not have access or such limited access that we thought if we could at least cover the main things and it could be, you know, available in libraries or, you know, things like that and audio books that that would be a way that more people could really have that information. Michelle: Well, it's great information. And also, I love that it talks about. combining foods, in Chinese medicine, we have a lot of formulas of herbs. So each herbal formula has different herbs and they work together as a symphony. And a lot of times they'll include ginger or digestive herbs to help assimilate. Michelle: So working together, And a certain symphony is what makes it that much more beneficial for the body. And I like how you talk about the importance of combining foods. You were talking about putting [00:28:00] vegetables because if you just eat meat without vegetables, it's not going to be able to simulate as well and digest as well without those vegetables helping in that fiber. Angela: Right. The vegetables are actually pretty protective, right? So I mean, there, you know, there have been studies that look at people who eat just more of an all meat diet and then people who eat more of a vegetable based diet, but with meat and the gut is healthier, right? If you incorporate those vegetables the, the, because the fiber from the vegetables is so protective. Angela: That then you are able to digest the, the meat and make use of the nutrients in the meat as well. So I think that's, that's great advice. And I think that, you know, out here we're in Seattle. And so we have a lot of, you know, we have a number of people who are trained in acupuncture. They are, you know, trained in traditional Chinese medicine. Angela: And we have always basically said, you know, gosh, I don't know that area, [00:29:00] but I trust. The practitioners in my area who knows so much this has been around for so long that let's, you know, combine and talk about the best of all worlds and support everybody's health. And then the same with fertility clinics, like some people really are going to need that extra step of a traditional IVF clinic. Angela: They might need insemination. They might need IVF. And then all these other things are going to be supportive and enhance their success because it's so expensive. And the last thing you want to have to do is multiple cycles. And so the more efficient you can make each cycle by bringing your best self forward into the process and taking the time, like a lot of people, you know, want to kind of take a lot of time to get to a fertility clinic. Angela: And then once they get there, they want IVF yesterday. Like they want to be pregnant yesterday. So And it's still really about the time and the investment in, [00:30:00] you know, producing optimum health for you and your partner. And so that, you know, it might take a good three months, right? Of preparation to say, let's make sure when you do IVF, if you need IVF and you're going to do it, that everything's perfect. Angela: As great as you can make it going into the cycle instead of just like, Oh, there's an opening next week. Let's get started. You know Michelle: I wish all reproductive endocrinologists spoke like you Angela: Oh, yeah. Thank Judy: she, and she, and she walks the walk, you know, for all the patients we've had together. A lot of times after that initial consult, she'd be like, okay, I want you to do, you know, food for fertility and work on nutrition and lifestyle for three months. You know, let's see, you know, what we can do with some of these biomarkers that are, that are elevated in a very positive way. Judy: And then quite often during that three months, a woman starts cycling. I always, I remember saying to Angela once years ago, I go, What if you put the [00:31:00] fertility clinics out of business? I mean, we were kidding, you know, when I said that they have the role. So please don't think I'm saying that, but you know, we did. Judy: And she's like, great. She was like, wonderful. Let's help people on the easiest journey. Let's not, you know, when someone gets sent to me and they've already had three failed IVFs. for whatever reason. And they're like, okay, I want to work on my nutrition. I'm so happy to work with them, but I feel really bad because they're pretty wounded because they've been pretty disappointed and let down. Judy: And sometimes it was something obvious that nobody ever brought up, you know, their eating disorder, their PCOS, that things could have been optimized first. So I think that's where we all work together. So I feel like that's why when you work in integrative planning, You know, practices. We, we work with, you know, fertility yoga instructors that we really trust and, and, and, and D's and dietitians and, and, you know, we know which clinics are going to be weight shaming, you know, we want to know [00:32:00] where can our patients put the best team together, where can they get support groups from resolve or other organizations so that they feel as fully supported as they go on this journey, because a lot of people, Never expected this. Judy: They just, I went through unexplained infertility for years. Never thought that was in the bags for me, but it was like. You know, you feel helpless. So having a community, and I think when we all work together interdisciplinary, you know, and we know the best people to send our patients to, or best organizations, or how to check, we really help them. Judy: We really, we really can help. So we're excited about you, you know, your future book. Yes. I mean, you know, I was just coming first, but yeah, looking for resources is so important, Michelle. Angela: And I, right. And I think, you know, those resources are great. And then also if somebody is seeing somebody and it's not clicking. You know, it could be it could be their doctor. It could be their [00:33:00] dietitian. It could be whatever They you don't have to stay with the same person. You can actually go get another opinion you might You know, click better and work better with someone else who Has different information even it's not all the same. Angela: So each of us don't necessarily provide the same information or You know, it's an art and a science and I think we all feel that that we connect with people It's so important, but we all connect differently And and as an individual each person should really You Make the most of that and, and really make that work for them. Angela: They're the ones they're invested in it. Michelle: That is so true. Absolutely true. I've seen people who have been going for years to one reproductive endocrinologist and then when they changed different approach, different energy, just like, and it was a different outcome, Angela: Yep. Michelle: you know, it happens.  Judy: And if you make a change, [00:34:00] no one's mad at you. We all want the same end result. I always tell them all the clinics in this town, they're all friends. They all know each other, you know, professionally, they all know each other. They're going to send your charts. Judy: They're not going to hold them back. You know, everybody does want a positive outcome, you know, to take place. Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. I mean you know, not always the case, , but when it is, it's amazing, and it's true you really do have to find that alignment and I always say, you know, it takes a village and creating a team of different people that can support you in different ways. Michelle: When going through this, but of course nutrition is so important in Chinese Judy: We all eat. Michelle: Yeah, we all eat and we eat for a reason a good reason, right? Angela: Mm hmm. Michelle: And the spleen and stomach are actually the center and they're like the mother in a sense, you know the nurturer Aspect of our bodies and that is really where everything else gets built they [00:35:00] talk about pre heaven chi pre heaven energy in the kidneys And of course the kidneys are really important But sustenance, the energy with which we can sustain and increase after our genetics is food, Angela: Right. And I think, you know, that's just kind of being understood. I mean, I think in science, Yeah. We now are recognizing, you know, there's genetics, and then there's epigenetics, which is how the genes are expressed and the epigenetics is how we influence which genes are expressed. And that has to do with our nutrition, our stress. Angela: Our sleep, our movement, our community, our mental disposition, our mental health, our optimism. All these things have a huge impact in our health by the epigenetics. And I think people sometimes think it's just genetics and things are. A predetermined and it's going to be one way and it's totally [00:36:00] not. You have so much influence as a, as an individual about what path your life can take and how your health is affected by these decisions you make every day. Michelle: which is so empowering, I think, to know that you actually can have a hand in your Angela: Mm hmm.  Judy: , I was just thinking we almost wanted to add a whole another chapter on epigenetics, but we had to pull it back. So we just kind of sprinkled it in, you know, the lifestyle things. But even when we work with people who are using donor eggs, their health will have an impact on these epigenetics. So that really empowering that mom, you are the full mom, you know, even with a donor egg, what you eat, your life, your health. Judy: Is going to have an impact on your baby. And I think that really helps people to know that Michelle: That is such a good point. It's really true because it's, it's all important. It's all parts of the [00:37:00] whole.  That's where you do have control right over your lifestyle. And these some of these decisions because you don't always have control over your fertility. I mean, certain aspects are just out of your control, and you do feel that helplessness. Angela: And so I think where you can feel good and feel empowered is, you know, these are the actions I can take. These are the steps I can take. I am making progress. I am growing as a person. I'm helping myself. I'm helping my community. Whatever the case may be, I try to recommend not kind of losing yourself in just trying to get pregnant. Angela: Really recognize your, yourself as a whole person and all the things you are providing to, to your community through purpose and service and love and, and everything you're doing is just, it's key to who you are and it brings you strength and peace. And that's just really [00:38:00] Great to know and you, those are decisions you can make. Angela: That's not something out of your control. Michelle: That's so important. And thank you for bringing that up and you guys, I could talk to you guys for hours cause you know what, you know what I love? Well, first of all, your knowledge, you guys are very knowledgeable about what you're talking about, but the passion , and the compassion. With which you are operating  Michelle: I think we both have one major thing in common is that we love this community and it's a beautiful community to serve. And so for people who want to find you or read your book, how can they find you? Judy: Well, the book is available at all major books, booksellers and many of the independent ones request it getting to baby book.com. It will be released April 9th. So I'm not sure when this is released, but April 9th will be released. It can be pre-ordered. You can follow me at Fertile Nutrition or on my website, mindbody nutrition.com [00:39:00] and Angela. Angela: And you can also request the book from your library. So libraries don't automatically stock books, but if individuals make a request to a library, the library can order the book. So that's something to know as well. And then I'm at AngelaThiremd. com or at AngelaThiremd on Instagram. Michelle: Awesome. It was such a pleasure meeting the two of you. You guys are so nice and so knowledgeable and just really lovely to talk to. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. Angela: Thank you, Michelle. Judy: Michelle. Thanks, Michelle. Angela: to you as well. 

On tomorrow's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Alana McGlashan of @thenurturedwomban_ shares her personal fertility challenge story and experience with Asherman's syndrome. She discusses the complications she faced after a miscarriage and the diagnosis of severe Asherman's syndrome. Alana shares her journey of healing and preparing her body for conception, as well as her experiences with pregnancy and loss. She emphasizes the importance of connecting with the heart and womb, and the power of self-trust in the healing process. I was deeply moved by her story of hope and how she found strength to listen deeply to her soul's calling and knowing that she was meant to have her children. Be sure to tune in!   Description:   Alana experienced miscarriage, Ashermans Syndrome & infertility on her journey to conceive. Navigating Asherman's Syndrome was one of the hardest times of her life as she was told due to the severity she may not be able to have children. Sending her on a healing journey that although may have taken 2 years, she now has 2 children later. The medicine she found on her journey she now shares with women in her 1:1 energetic womb explorations, helping women to rewrite the story they have been told on their own fertility journey & setting the foundations for profound healing. You can find her on Instagram @thenurturedwomban_     For more information about Michelle, visitwww.michelleoravitz.com   Click here to find out how to get the first chapter of "The Way of Fertility" for free.   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:     [00:00:00] Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Alana. Alana: Hi, how are you going? Michelle: Good. So I'd love for you to share your story. I know that it's been a very personal fertility challenge story and definitely defied the odds from what you were told. And I love stories of hope. So I'm very excited to have you on and share your story and your experience with Asherman's syndrome, which I think a lot of people aren't really aware or may not even be aware that they actually have. Alana: Yeah, absolutely. And at the time, you know, I had no idea what it was and it was something I was searching for in the hopes to hear hope, because I was just hearing a lot of stats and a lot of Let's say stories that I didn't, I didn't want to hear at the time. So I felt pregnant and lost that little baby at 10 weeks. Alana: And I was a scientist working in Sydney, which is from [00:01:00] where I live, two hours travel away. And I went to the early early pregnancy. room, and they gave me all these options of what you can do next. And. At the time, everything, I would say I was heavily in my masculine energy. Like all just do the things, list out the steps and we will follow them to become parents. Alana: And because I traveled so far away, I took the option of a DNC, which is a dilation and curette. I'm not sure if that's called anything else anywhere else. And it's just basically the surgical removal. Yeah. Okay, cool. And yeah, and I woke up to complications after that. And, you know, after being told like, it's so routine and I just thought, you know, it would be simple. Alana: We do this and then I have a bleed and we can start trying again. And I woke up to, yes, as I said, complications. And [00:02:00] feeling really disorientated and I just felt really in my gut like wow what what just happened and they kind of just brushed me off and My doctor, then later, just was like, okay, well it's been six weeks, you haven't got your bleed back. Alana: Sometimes women need a little bit longer. And I just knew in my gut things weren't right. And for me, I had no period. So 12 weeks, post that surgery. I still had no period. Yeah. And I think maybe around the eight weeks I, I was like, no, my gut's telling me something's not right. I'm going to book a specialist appointment and because they take so long to get into, I thought I'm just going to book it now. Alana: And if I don't need it, then I can cancel it.  Michelle: Did you, did you know anything at the time? Did they say something was off or you just kind of felt Alana: yeah, they, there was nothing ever mentioned of Ashman syndrome. The only thing that they mentioned, I mean, they obviously mentioned some risks that can happen and the risks, risks are a perforated uterus, but it's so [00:03:00]routine that if that was to happen, that was really negligence. And that was all that they had described as a potential risk. Alana: So I hadn't even heard of Ashman's by this point, like, and so I followed my gut, made this appointment and it must have been around the four month mark after surgery and I told him my story thinking I was just going in there to get a tablet that would just help kickstart everything. Maybe I just needed some help to get things along. Alana: And again, you know, I was, I was very naive at that time on, of my cycle and understanding my body. And I walked in and told him my story. And basically he said, we, there's something called Ashman syndrome, and I feel that this is, this is your situation. And. We need to get in and have a look like, cause he could do it via scans and then go in and do surgery, but he's like, due to the nature of how long you've already waited and the scar tissue that would be there if it was [00:04:00] confirmed. Alana: We need to get this cleaned up ASAP basically. Michelle: Before we continue on the details, I want people to know like, what is Asherman's syndrome? Alana: So Ashman's syndrome is basically where scar tissue grows inside the uterus and reduces your fertility as a result from some form of surgery. So they might try and say just from DNC, but if you have a baby and maybe there's retained placenta and they clean it out that way, any sort of surgical intervention within your uterus, Could potentially scar. Alana: And I think what's important for women to know right now is that any change in your period. Or if you're experiencing difficulties falling could be a sign. I have no women after, so the percentage is actually quite low. I forgot to look it up before we jumped on today of Ashermans. But The other women that I had sort [00:05:00] of searched for to bring awareness to our local hospital and their procedures, they had their period, but their periods just were different, a little bit lighter, maybe they didn't go as long, there was just a lot less. Alana: small signs, which they quite easily then got fobbed off as just being paranoid in a sense. And then all turned out to have different stages of Ashman's, whereas I had none and my stage was quite high. Actually the highest he had seen in my local area. So that was not good news for me. Michelle: Yeah. Alana: yeah, so long story short, he said we need to operate and Confirm, and if so, it's a 20 minute procedure, I'll be in and I'll be out. Alana: And, I thought, oh, I thought my legs were pulled out from me at that moment, but from that surgery I woke up and I felt really disorientated, as you do, and he's standing there waiting for me to wake up to tell me that, [00:06:00] yes, I've confirmed it's Ashman's Syndrome, however, it is so severe, I I've been in there for four hours and I can't see without risking damage to your uterus. Alana: And I need to do some further tests before we continue. And I remember the first thought I thought of was, am I going to be able to have children? And he had this solemn look on his face and he goes, I have no idea what's possible right now. And I was just. Gutted. Absolutely gutted. Michelle: Wow. That is so real. I mean to be in a situation like that and just thinking, okay, I'm going to go in and have the surgery and everything's going to be fine, it's going to be, what did he say? 20 minutes? And to actually see that it's really severe so what happened after that?  Alana: Yeah, so I then had to go you have to allow a little bit of [00:07:00] time for some healing and they put in, I think it depends for the surgeon, but I got a gel put in that just kind of tried to help what he did pull away with the scar tissue not to reform because there is a risk that as he opens it up, like the little spindles might. Alana: touch and then start to pull together. So they put in this gel that lasts, I think, for four weeks. So I had to wait a month. And then he sent me for a we call it here a sonar histogram. So it's just a ultrasound where they insert water into your uterus. And then they can see like a good picture, the flow, if there's any blocks. Alana: And I think for women that might have blocked fallopian tubes, sometimes they use this and it can either unblock or at least identify that the fallopian tubes are blocked. And, I'm just going to say that was the worst pain I had ever been in getting that. And again, no one warned me that it could be uncomfortable. Alana: And I wouldn't say uncomfortable [00:08:00] was the word. And I was just so lucky. I had a girlfriend who came with me and just said, look, I can, I can sit here and hold your hand while they do this. And it probably turned out the reason why for me it was so painful, but I have now heard many other women describe it as quite excruciating. Alana: Is that my, most of my uterus? was scarred to the point that it was nearly completely shut. Michelle: Oh, wow. Alana: And so they were trying to obviously shove water in it and like open it up when it could not. And so that again was like a really hard thing to take. And the specialist had said that he will have to do this with multiple surgeries. The good news is there is a side, there's a little part that is open and he believed if he could get to there, then he could. Remove the rest and it may take a few surgeries, but he just wanted to take his time. Alana: He didn't want to [00:09:00] cause more damage. And so we had just resigned to the fact that this is a process that needs to be done and there's no rushing it. And the good news was the next surgery, he was able to remove all the scar tissue. And again, he inserted the gel so that the hopes that nothing would close back up. Alana: And then I had another follow up, just normal ultrasound, because I said, I was too scarred to have that other ultrasound again and yeah. And then from there he's like, okay, this is great. You know, we've got, we've got rid of it. The uterus has opened back up. It's gone to normal shape again. Let's work on your lining. Alana: So a. Do I call it a symptom afterwards? Is that Your lining may not become thick again. And he is also an IVF specialist. So he was really [00:10:00] wanting my lining to get to a certain thickness that he would put his, or would want his IVF patients to be on which just was not happening. And at first it was really disheartening. Alana: And so he'd reached out to, there's a guru in Sydney, and then he went further. I think it was It was overseas and he just said, you know, like some of them don't come back, you know, any thicker. And that is, that is their lining. And so obviously being a scientist, I had read all the papers, read all the stats and nothing was looking great to have a baby. Alana: Some women had not many in the severity that I had. And if they did have one that were high risks the risk was the placenta could attach to your uterus muscle. And just a whole heap of other things that you really don't want to hear when all you want to do is be a mom. [00:11:00] And yeah, so it was like, I just kept going to this place and this place just kept giving me the answers that did not agree with what was in my heart. Alana: And I just thought this can't be my story. This can't be my only story. And I just had this feeling to expand where I was looking. And so I started to research other modalities. And I thought, you know what, if I can just help support my body, who knows what's possible. And I ended up finding a traditional Chinese medicine practitioner who specialized in fertility and I went there weekly for two years. Alana: Yes. And I felt good. I felt like this was where I was meant to be, but it was really hard to hear the things that she[00:12:00] was saying. Like your body can be trusted. Your body can self heal. Everything's possible because at the time I was so, as I said, in my masculine energy of stats and facts that. Michelle: hmm. Alana: how, how, and it wasn't until obviously with the, with the acupuncture and the herbs, my mind started to heal, my heart started to heal, that then my womb had a chance to heal. Alana: And of course it sent me on this huge journey, deep dive into energetics of the womb and its capacity, its ability. And I started to believe that, whoa, okay. She's a powerful organ, and not just organ, portal for creation. And, Alana: Right? Tingles! Yeah! Michelle: Yeah. When you said heart, that struck me. 'cause I know that the heart's connected to the uterus. Alana: And, [00:13:00] it wasn't, it took me a long time to put two and two together. And, your emotional state. And like, the womb is the element of water, so your emotions. And it's the sister heart, right? So of course, our emotions are going to get stored in our uterus. And if she's too busy trying to hold our emotions that we're not processing, how was I giving her the space she needed to heal in the timeframe I wanted, you know? Alana: And it was just, my world had opened up. I still had at that time stayed close to the medical system. There was still fears, you know. that if I had fallen pregnant what that then might look like, what that journey may look like. And we decided to focus not on a baby at the moment, just focus on healing, get married. Alana: And I fell pregnant on my honeymoon or I found out on my honeymoon and we were so excited. But [00:14:00]again, I decided not to get a scan until a bit later, but that, that Bubby had decided only six weeks was it's time on this earth. And as, Sad as that was. It actually gave me the biggest sense of hope. And I realized the message was just give me time, Michelle: Oh, Alana: me time. Michelle: wow. Alana: And so I was like, okay, this is possible. That was without intervention. That was without any other, cause I had a lot of fear around anyone going in my uterus again, because of course I trusted someone to go in there and do their job. And I came out damaged and that really, and that like, not just you were hurt from that. Alana: That changed the projection of my life completely. And so I had a lot of mistrust. I didn't want anyone to go near it if I could help it. So I really wanted that natural approach. And as I said, as that strength between [00:15:00] heart and womb grew, I knew that that was going to be possible and I just had to trust that you know, the divine timing of trusting and surrender is not the easiest thing to fall into or follow, but. Alana: I just had to trust that my heart was guiding me on the path that, that then needed to be. Alana: Sorry, that brings up lots of emotions thinking about back then. Alana: And so, yeah, it was, it was actually quite interesting that the divine timing of the, that baby that I then lost the second time, my family suffered a significant loss in like my immediate family not long after. And. I believe that that baby also knew that it wasn't the time because I needed to be there for my little brother. Alana: And it was, I was just, [00:16:00] you know, at the time you just think, wow, I'm cop and blow after blow. But when you had the little bit of space, you just thought, well, how would I have been able to grow a baby right now? Like I am in so much grief. It, it was insane. And then once He was better. I went on a Bali trip with a best friend and we just, she's like, you just need to, you know, live life a little bit. Alana: And we went on this retreat and it was when we came back from that, we were like, okay, I feel like we're in a good place now. Like I'm in a good place. Let's just see what happens without the pressure and the timing and the scheduling. I didn't want conceiving to be a job. I really wanted it to be from the heart. And it was about, yeah, because I feel like when you're struggling, you really take the heart out of conceiving and conception. Michelle: is, you are, every single thing is a quote. I'm like, this is amazing. This is really, I'm [00:17:00] feeling this. Alana: Conception isn't just the creation between man and woman, Michelle: Yes. Alana: It's a co creation with the spirit of that baby and what it, what fuses that love, you know? And. I wanted the next baby to be strong, strong enough to like, whatever we needed to go through, we had each other. And.  Michelle: Like the stuff that you're telling, like it's making me emotional. Just so you know, like I'm really feeling every word that you're saying, not to interrupt, but continue. Alana: I probably needed that pause for a second. Yeah. And so then we found out in February I was pregnant and you know what? I knew, I knew instantly this was the baby, that this baby was going nowhere, that they were here and. My dreams had come true. There were still fears around the placenta attaching to my uterus and what that could mean. Alana: And at the end of the [00:18:00] day, I have resided to the fact that if this was going to be my only baby, so be it because I wanted this baby. And. Yeah, I was in, I was, I had an OB because if things did start to go south, we wanted to be on that early. But anyways, I had a beautiful pregnancy. No complications. Alana: The placenta was in a great spot. And it even got to the point, because most, the stats had suggested that women with Ashmans have. a caesarean. And again, that fear of do not go near that part of my body. I don't want you there. I really didn't want it if I didn't have to. And I said, can I, can I try, can I try and go natural? Alana: Like everything is going well. There is no indication of anything wrong. And it was looking good and she thought possibly, but then my son decided to stay in the breech position and [00:19:00] I was not in the place that I am in now where I would continue with a vaginal birth. I mean, I was born a breech baby vaginally. Alana: And so I found it really hard that the quote I was told was that we have lost the art to birth a breech baby or the skills, not the art. And I was like, Oh, okay. And then today I think, I'm sorry, who's birthing the baby? Michelle: Mm hmm. Alana: The mom, Michelle: Right? Alana: the mom is birthing the baby. Not you. Yes, you're assisting, but yeah, so, You know, my views today would have changed on that. Alana: But at the time, again, as I had mentioned, I, we just wanted the baby. And she did give me options to do that, like manipulation, my traditional Chinese medicine practitioner, she was doing all the things to create the space. Yeah. Everything. I had everything going. I had it at home on my toes. I was doing the [00:20:00] upside down poses, which mind you made me feel absolutely terrible. Alana: And so I just said to my husband, I can't do this. Like. This feels wrong. And and I have to resign to the fact that. He found his position and he was not moving and that's where he wanted to be. And then it was my choice to decide how then that, that became our birth together. And so we had a cesarean beautiful little boy, everything great. Alana: It all went great. And so afterwards, because of the scarring and that fear that I had around my uterus, I didn't want to fall back in a place of like dissociation and detachment from it. Like I had. Started to rebuild this relationship with my womb. And now they've just. Also added another scar. And I was like, well, I've had one baby who's to say I can't have another like, and so I went on another deeper journey again. Alana: And with my practitioner of healing this scar tissue and softening it before it has the chance to [00:21:00] really harden in preparation for the next baby. And. Michelle: And this was acupuncture or another Alana: Acupuncture at the beginning. And then it was probably for the first six months I did acupuncture and she showed me how to self massage my scar tissue. And what else did we do? There was just a lot of hands on touch. And I think her focus was to remind me that you can still have loving touch on your body. Alana: After everything I had gone through. And after six months, It got a little bit hard with a little baby cause she was in Sydney where I had found it cause it was close to where it was really hard to get up to her. And now that he was starting to move and be mobile, it was a lot harder to have a session on my own. Alana: And so then I started looking at other modalities. I thought, well, okay, I've done all the acupuncture. Let's see what else there is. And I come across a lady who did Yoni steaming and she did energetic [00:22:00] support. Consultations beforehand. And it became just a really beautiful practice where I could turn within and I could nourish myself and just steam and just visualize the blood flow going back to my uterus and everything being soft and really in that feminine essence, that feminine energy to allow that nurturing to happen to my womb. Alana: And I went weekly. Until my bleed came back, which was 14 months post as I was a breastfeeding mom postpartum. And, you know, we were kind of on this urgency, let's, let's fall pregnant straight away because of everything we had. We didn't expect it to take two years to get our son. And I'm already in my thirties. Alana: So there was like that time pressure to, all right, if we want more children, cause you know, we had always talked about having four and we're like, Oh gosh, I don't know if four is going to happen now, but if we can get. You know, on the roll, we'll see what happens. And so I had to reduce my breastfeeds to get my bleed [00:23:00] back so that we could fall pregnant. Alana: And when we decided to start consciously conceiving, so I think it was just the month of that I ended up with my bleed. I started to feel this essence, this person, this spirit around me. And it was the first time I had really started to attune into these senses. And. I just could feel this girl, this pink. Alana: I could see pink around me when when she'd just show up. And it was really interesting because the month I fell pregnant. So obviously that two week wait, I couldn't feel her. I didn't know where she was. And I was like, Oh, I feel like she's here. And I was pregnant and I didn't tell anyone apart from the lady that I went to Yoni steaming, because we'd always talk about, you know what, what do I feel like a baby might be? Alana: And I was like, to be honest, I can actually sense this female around me. And I just get these glimpses of[00:24:00] pink like a pink orb and yeah. And then it turned out I had a daughter and what was beautiful about that pregnancy, I mean, we didn't find out. I like to just wait till birth to find out what the gender of our babies are. Alana: And. I did not want to go back to the hospital system. I didn't want to be put in a place where they would just see my history and then start to implement things that then of course would lead to other interventions that I didn't want. I didn't want to be supported in that way. I knew the capability of my body. Alana: I, like my pregnancy was again, a really gentle, easy pregnancy. I mean, I was very sick, but overall easy. And. I decided to home birth. And again, that was like a huge thing. Like in my immediate community, you know, no one does that. And so I didn't want to tell anyone cause I didn't need anyone's opinion [00:25:00] to discourage me from this because I had, I think it was just before I tested on a stick and I only tested on the stick to show my husband, like I didn't, I already knew I was pregnant. Alana: I had this vision that the birth would be at home. And so I really just wanted to trust that That was again, where I needed to go and I needed to trust. And that took a lot of self confidence to be able to say, no, this is, this is what I want to do and why. And yeah, I had my daughter at home and now I always knew that like my journey was. Alana: A lesson to be learned. It was a, because if I continued on the path I had continued, I would not be the woman I am today. I wouldn't be the mother I am today. I wouldn't be making the choices I've been making for myself and my family today. And it was like a realignment, but also a [00:26:00] gift for medicine for me to be able to share with women. Alana: And, you know, I want my story to be heard, but I've also then set up my own business so that I can still be at home with my babes because I want to raise my children. And I want to help women who feel like their story is just hurdle after hurdle. And what I've learned in this, this journey is like what we see in our physical body is only the tip of the iceberg. Michelle: Oh, yes. Alana: Yeah, and like when we're looking and talking about our womb, the energetic womb, there is so much she holds and there's so much healing that needs to start there. And the first thing I like to check with women is that connection between heart and womb, is there coherence and resonance? How are they emotionally feeling? Michelle: my language. Alana: right. And, [00:27:00] and that's why I, I love listening to your podcast because I just was like, you get this.  Michelle: I feel the same way about you, by the way. Alana: And now I, I want women to like know how important it is to care for your womb and what we're seeing as manifestations on the physical side, the root cause. The reason that you may not be seeing change is not in the physical. It's in your energetics. Yeah. Michelle: 100 percent Oh my God. I mean, I'm telling you, like, I'm so moved by your story, but also it just fascinates me like beyond fascinates me. When you were saying that you're a scientist, like from somebody who came from a science perspective and background, and yet, even though you were still there, you still had your inner voice. Michelle: Letting know something was off, like the doctors didn't tell you anything was off. Nobody came to you after[00:28:00] the surgery and said, you know, something looks off. You figured it out. You knew it from the inside out. The wisdom within your body spoke to you Alana: Absolutely. Michelle: heard it. Alana: Yeah. And I think sometimes for women, if you allow that external noise to be too loud, you're going to feel it in your heart. You're going to feel it as grief, as sadness, as like, why is this happening? But that noise is too loud. Michelle: Mm Alana: And. You know, if, if all you take away from my story is that deep knowing it's okay to know that your path could be different and maybe that's your sign to go searching elsewhere Michelle: I mean, yeah, it's incredible. First of all, it takes a lot of courage. Oh, I mean, it takes a [00:29:00] lot of courage to hear something from an authority figure, especially if it's like people you're relying on and in the medical community and I'm just FYI, I'm not saying not to listen to your doctors but for your specific journey, your journey Had twists and turns and part of it did rely on you listening to your own gut and, and really getting to the bottom of it. Michelle: And you remind me a lot of a patient who came on the podcast, her name was Amy and she was in her forties. And she also was told she couldn't get pregnant with her own eggs and that she was approaching menopause. And she ended up having two babies afterwards, healthy babies. And she had this determination in her. Michelle: She was just, there was this. Kind of strength. And her voice was so loud, like her inner voice and not her voice. Her inner voice was so loud in telling her, no, no, no, no, no, you gotta, and she had this [00:30:00] determination within her that I see in you. And it's not something that is easy for everybody to answer that call. Michelle: Like it's not an easy call to answer Alana: No. And it's, it's a fire within, but it doesn't mean it's an easy path. And it's like, you have to have the courage to continue to choose, to continue to choose what you know to be true. And I had many challenges. There was many times where I was like, well, I feel like the universe sometimes goes, are you sure? Alana: Because you can choose here if you want to, because we were given choice on this, on this earth. Right. And you can choose to go this way because maybe you believe this is easier. Or keep going as a reminder, you know, just to, to, to choose and yeah, that fire and that courage, like there was a lot of times where I felt like, I don't know, [00:31:00] you know, because you don't know, there's so much unknown and the world really like thrives on structure because that brings safety and that brings knowing and this path can be so unknown and all, all you can do is put one foot. Alana: In front of the other and trust yourself, just trust in yourself, because then the pieces will start to fall and they will start to come. Yes, you may need to choose yourself, but keep choosing yourself and your baby. Because if you desire a baby, that desire is meant for you. Can you trust that? Michelle: You know what they say, there's that Rumi quote, it says, what you seek is seeking you. Alana: Yeah. Because otherwise, why would we? Why would we have that desire to do so? Michelle: I really believe that. That, thank you for saying that because I really, really believe that to be true. And I think a lot of people. learn from so many different opinions and so much of that noise, outside [00:32:00] noise, it dilutes their faith in that being true. Just because we don't have proof for something doesn't mean it's not true. Alana: Yeah. And you get to, you get to decide what's true for you. And I think that's when you come back to the medical system and your doctors is just having a place of discernment. Is this really true for you? And you know, if you can come from a place of self-trust and that self-trust guided you to go there, absolutely listen to that. Alana: Like my message is, listen and guide from within. Michelle: And when you talk about that heart, well, like there's this heart brain coherence, but the heart has. An energy field that's stronger than any other organ in our body. And people think it's all in the brain, but the heart actually has a way larger magnetic field. It has such an important role on our mind and it has such an important role on our uterus, [00:33:00]which is life giving and love gives life, breathes life. Michelle: So talk about that resonance and that coherence and what you've learned about it. When it comes to the heart and the uterus. Alana: so I want to start with a quote from Joe Dispenza that I had just recently heard, and it kind of just put the words to place of what I was feeling, and it, he says, We only accept, believe, and surrender to the thoughts that are equal to our emotional state. We only accept, believe, and surrender to the thoughts that are equal to our emotional state. Alana: And I was like, they're the words that I'm kind of searching for. Right. Because a lot of my sensations that come through me are feelings. So I knew the heart needed to heal and healing the heart allows for the womb to heal and this relationship, this agreement between the two, like the womb holding on temporarily to [00:34:00] emotions, to. Alana: then return to the heart so the heart can process and leave our body. And so there was a lot of practices that I have incorporated and I still do them daily where I will do a little visualization and my intention is always love. And You can still have love and gratitude, even if you're feeling deep sadness. Alana: And it's not about, I don't want to be sad anymore. Let's reject that. This is grief is one of the deepest emotions you can have that has profound healing when you allow it to run its course. Michelle: Yes. Alana: And I think for women who are trying to conceive, when you're struggling, the thoughts that start to come up why me? Why is my womb not working? I can't, I [00:35:00] can't fall pregnant. I can't do this. You know there is anger, there is a disconnection and disassociation from your womb and really. In this society, we are already starting from a place of disconnection from our first bleed and reconnecting, honing in. And sometimes it's as simple as 30 seconds, close down your eyes, put your hand on your womb. Alana: You take a deep belly breath, Alana: visualizing your hands that are warm. That mama hug that you just love to feel. Wrapping around your womb. Alana: And then telling it, I love you. Thank you for everything you are doing. [00:36:00] I know you want this too. Alana: And then bringing your hand back to your heart space. Alana: Feel that heartbeat. Alana: Your own rhythm. beating in your womb Alana: and feel the love between the two. Alana: Maybe you like to envision a rope, a golden cord, connecting, vibrating, Alana: sending out this beautiful white light. That's so strong and so pure.[00:37:00] Alana: Feel it wrap around your body, Alana: feel it encapsulate you. Alana: And then on your next inhale, breathe it all back in, breathe it into your cells, every inch of your being, physical, emotional mental and spiritual Alana: and opening your eyes and practicing a simple visualization I found daily was strengthening this reconnection. It allowed my inner voice to be heard. It built trust and surrender to the process because pregnancy, birth, motherhood, it is all setting you up. It is not something that you can plan out. Alana: The key is surrender. Michelle: hmm. Oh, [00:38:00] yeah. Alana: I get reminded of that every day. Michelle: Yeah, I think we all do, even though we've been on the path for a long time, the spiritual path really, that is in the path of truth and alignment. It doesn't matter. We get reminded every single day and I can literally talk to you for hours. I mean, There's just so much, so much information, so many things, so many ahas that I felt talking to you and I really truly think that you are so aligned in, I mean, I literally think that you're channeling wisdom. Michelle: You're very much connected to that. I can feel it. I could feel the truth in your words. I can feel the alignment I feel the awareness and the knowing and the true knowing of thyself. I think know thyself that's like the key and the only way to do that is to get quiet and To connect with your inner wisdom and to hear what your body is telling you because the more you hear it The more your connection with it gets stronger. Michelle: And of [00:39:00] course I can talk to you for hours, but we don't have as much as I wish, but, but I would love for you to share how people can find you and how people can work with you. Alana: Yeah, absolutely. Michelle: are inspired, which I know they are from your story. Alana: So you can find me on Instagram at the nurtured woman. Womb, W O M B A N and currently the way to work with me is through my one on one sessions and they're energetic womb explorations for one hour where we can just dive into your current state, your desire, and really start honing into this connection between heart and womb with then obviously the opportunity to extend. Alana: But That is the point of contact. Michelle: Awesome. Well, I definitely feel you are connected to that womb. wisdom and I know that womb wisdom does actually speak to us. So Alana, [00:40:00] thank you so much for coming on here today. Sharing your incredible story, like really incredible. Like I felt it on every level of my being. It got me emotional listening to your story. Michelle: And I thank you so much for coming on today. Alana: you so much for having me. It was such a pleasure.

Dr. Katie Lee is a dentist, speaker, author, and coach who lives in Aurora, Colorado. Dr. Lee graduated from University of Illinois at Chicago in 2010 and was an owner-partner in over 80 DSO supported dental practices throughout the US and served as Clinical Partner overseeing 5 states. Currently, she consults for health technology companies and provides implant education for general dentists. Dr. Lee has two passions in her profession: dentistry itself and making other dentists successful. Her passion about the oral systemic health link comes from personal experience. Dr. Lee was involved in an ATV accident as a teenager, which left her without many teeth and rendered her jaw immobile. Dr. Lee experienced how oral health affects systemic health and the benefits of dental implants. Her first-hand journey in recovering from the effects of dental trauma led her to specialize her career on the mouth-body connection® and dental implants. Dr. Lee searches for proven technologies that improve clinical outcomes and the patient experience and loves to educate her peers on those technologies. Dr. Lee authored a book entitled Saved By the Mouth to educate patients and clinicians on the importance of oral health. Dr. Lee has won many accolades, including Top 40 under 40 Dentists in America, and International Woman of the Year in Dentistry. She has been featured on local Fox and NBC news stations discussing the importance of oral health.     https://www.instagram.com/katieleedds/   https://www.facebook.com/katieleedds   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:   https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/           Transcript:   Michelle Michelle: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Lee. Katie: Thanks. I'm really excited to be here. Michelle: I'm so excited to have you on actually, this is a first, I have never spoken to a dentist on this podcast, but it is such an important topic because there's such a correlation between inflammation in the mouth and also unexplained infertility. And I'm very excited to get started before we get started. I would love for you to give us a little bit of a background on yourself, how you got into the work that you do. Katie: Sure. Absolutely. Thanks for having me on. I feel honored that I'm, I'm the first. Hopefully, I don't mess it up for the rest of us dentists out there. My journey into dentistry was. Of tragedy. So when I was in high school, about 14 years old, I was involved in a ATV four wheeler accident where I crashed into a telephone pole headfirst without a helmet on, broke every bone in my face from my eyebrows down and naturally, or I [00:01:00] guess as expected, lost a ton of teeth and my jaws were wired shut immediately, even though I had lots of teeth that were displaced and broken. Katie: And, they were wired shut for two months. I'm I couldn't eat and so I was on a liquid diet and My family didn't really know anything about nutrition. So I was Having pudding jello ice cream, you know with Hershey's syrup box mashed potatoes You know all the things that you should not eat to be healthy or maintain your teeth And so I just started developing a ton of dental infection And, , that combined with not being able to eat nutritious foods, you know, my body really started shutting down. Katie: , I lost a ton of weight, my liver enzymes spiked, my kidneys started shutting down. And so I learned from a very early age just how much your oral health affects. Not only your mental and emotional health, but your, your physical health as well. And, you know, it was nine surgeries in four years, , that it [00:02:00] took to reconstruct my face and my jaw. Katie: And then once that was done and only then was I able to my teeth and, and finally replace the missing teeth and fix my smile. So that really. Got me interested in what I do. And then once I got into dentistry, you know, I started going down this journey of oral systemic health. And from a personal experience, I had a lot of fertility issues. Katie: I went through about six years in fertility treatment. And so just really started diving into, you know, how can. How does the mouth affect this and what can I do as a dentist to help other people? Michelle: Yeah, I mean it's definitely something that I think a lot of people do not I don't want to really correlate, but let's, let's actually really break this down because like , how can your teeth impact your body?  Katie: From a high level? Start there? Yeah. So, , there's a couple different ways that the teeth and gums are really affected to the rest of the body. And, the first way that I About is bacteria. So our body [00:03:00] has types of microbiomes and the first real microbiome that we get or we're introduced to is the one in our mouth and we get that, you know, we used to always think that babies were sterile. Katie: We know that they are introduced to some bacteria when in utero first microbiome that we get introduced to is through the mom's vaginal canal. And then Through breast milk and from family members when we're kissing, , and, you know, eating and drinking after them, we get this whole microbiome and the microbiome in our mouth is super important because it's what establishes and feeds our gut microbiome. Katie: And so we know that when we develop dysbiosis in the mouth, what actually happens is that bacteria then go through our gum tissue, or we swallow 80 trillion bacteria a day. And so the bacteria that are in our mouth. We'll go to other places in our body that they're not supposed to be and start to cause damage. Katie: So that's one way that the mouth affects it. And then the other way is through inflammation. So again, when we have these foreign invaders in our mouth, what we know [00:04:00] is that our body elicits an immune response. And that immune response, unfortunately, doesn't stay localized to our mouth. It will break down our gum tissue, making our gum tissue permeable, again, allowing what's in the mouth to get to the rest of the body. Katie: But it also triggers an inflammatory response in other parts of the body, too. And this becomes really important in fertility, because that's when people can start to develop things like endometriosis, pelvic inflammatory disease, and things like Michelle: yeah. And also, as you're talking about this, I'm thinking about all these like alcohol rinses, you know, mouthwashes. So that's huge because people are like, oh, I want to get rid of my mouth bacteria because I want to really clean mouth. So like, But that messes up the good bacteria. So talk about that. I mean, you know more about this than I do Katie: Yeah, no, I mean, that is such a good point. I'm so glad that you brought that up, because The way I was trained, even 10, you know, back in, I graduated in 2010, you know, we were [00:05:00]taught the, the more it burns, the better it's cleaning, right? Like you want something in there that's burning. You want something that's 99 kills 99. Katie: 9 percent of all bacteria. But what we know is that's actually really bad. And to your point, , those types of products are not selective. So they're killing everything that's there. The good and the bad, when really we want to control the bad, support the good. and kind of let the body do its own thing. Katie: The other thing that's damaging about alcohol mouthwashes is that it dries out your tissues. And we know that when you have dry mouth or dry tissues, the bad bacteria love to go to those surfaces and take up shop. And it really supports them colonizing and growing their little, , microbial communities. Katie: So we want to have saliva. Saliva protects our teeth and gums from bad bacteria. So an alcohol containing product is not good for our health. Michelle: Now what does a person do if they were a c section Katie: Yeah. So, you know, there's lots of things that people can do throughout their life to [00:06:00]support their microbiome, you know, C section babies. We know that unfortunately they, they don't get exposed to the. you know, good vaginal bacteria during birth, but there's lots of things that they can do to support their microbiome. Katie: So I'm a, you know, people always talk about taking probiotics and probiotics are great. And what probiotics do is they're actually going to put bacteria into the body. , so it'll, it'll help replenish the bacteria that is missing from the gut. What people also don't understand is that they need to feed the good bacteria that they already have. Katie: So you cannot forget to take. Prebiotics, eat prebiotic food, take prebiotic, supplements. That way you can feed and help nourish the bacteria that's already there. Michelle: Yeah, Katie: We're introduced to so many bacteria every single minute of the day. You know, I, I wouldn't be as concerned once you get into adulthood about having a c section or being a c section baby because by that time you've been exposed to really everything that you need in your life. Katie: At that point it's just about nourishing and keeping it in balance. Michelle: Yeah. For sure.[00:07:00] It's interesting cause I was actually at, , microbiome labs. So are you familiar with them? So they actually have an enzyme like mouth. It's like a mint freshener, but it's like an enzyme one. And there was a guy who was talking about oral health. It was a presenter and he was talking about that and I thought that was really interesting and he also talked about Mouth breathers people who go to sleep and yeah So let's talk about that because that's really important and it's a big thing now people actually tape their mouth Katie: I know, it's just that you don't. Yeah, thank goodness for Instagram, you know, because you'll see someone on Instagram taping their mouth and all of a sudden everyone wants to tape their mouth, so this is really important because You know, there's a really good book out there for people to read called Breath by James Nestor I don't know if you've heard of it. Katie: A patient actually recommended it to me And it basically talks about that over time because of our high processed diet We've gone from eating You know, super fibrous, tough [00:08:00] foods to eating high processed carbohydrates and softer foods. And because of that, the structures of our skull and jaws have actually, , shortened or shrink. Katie: And because we have smaller jaws, it's why we no longer can. Make room for our wisdom teeth. So most people actually have to extract their wisdom teeth now. And what we know is that the smaller our jaws are, the less room in our mouth for our tongue and our airways actually start to shrink. So what happens is when we go to bed at night. Katie: our tongue falls to the back of our mouth and our airway collapses and we essentially start choking on our tongue. And so we start to breathe through our mouth. And the problem with this is our nose is, is such a, an incredible organ. It's designed with. millions and trillions and billions of of cilia in there to filter out the pollutants in the air. Katie: But when we're not breathing through our nose, we're taking in all of that dirty air through our mouth and it goes straight into our oral [00:09:00] cavity. We're introducing new, , microbes into our oral cavity that disrupts our microbiome. We're drying out our tissues. And again, we talked about dry mouth leads to increased bacteria formation, increased plaque formation, but then all that dirty air is also getting into our lung system, , which is not good and will trigger an inflammatory response. Katie: And so people don't realize that mouth breathing. causes or exacerbates allergies, , it also causes oral dysbiosis in the microbiome and therefore gut dysbiosis. And so one of the things that people need to do is to retrain themselves, how to breathe through their nose. So really great way to do that is by mouth taping. Katie: And a lot of patients will say, well, doc, I, you know, I can't breathe through my nose even during the day. And I'll say, well, you've got to retrain yourself how to use that part of your body that you haven't been using forever. So I encourage them to start taping during the day, you know, maybe just do 15 minutes at a time and slowly the nose will start to open up and work again.[00:10:00] Katie: Now, if someone has something more severe, like sleep apnea, they absolutely need to get a sleep test, , to get that diagnosis and then get treatment because. Sleep apnea is where you're actually choking at night. You're not breathing. You're waking up more than five times per hour because your oxygen is desaturating more than, more than 10%. Katie: And so those people need supplemental treatment such as a CPAP or an oral appliance or something like that. But sleep apnea is horrible for your brain. It kills brain cells. It's really hard on your heart and it's fatal if it's left untreated. It's just a matter of when. So I'm really glad that you brought that up. Michelle: that's actually really scary I do know that there's a correlation with weight gain And sleep apnea. So like, it's interesting because it's the whole thing. Like if you're taking care of your body and you're healthy, that impacts all the other things in your life, like your sleep. Katie: Definitely. Sleep apnea, what happens is when you, you know, when you're asleep and you stop breathing, what [00:11:00] happens is your body sends this rush of adrenaline to your brain stem to wake you up enough to take a breath. When you're doing that, you're stressing your body out, so cortisol is released. Katie: Cortisol causes systemic inflammation if it's released at high levels over time. , we also know that it, , lowers our insulin Michelle: Right. And then we gain weight because of that. Katie: yes, making us crave carbohydrates, making us gain weight. And so a lot of people have probably noticed that, and I, I notice this all the time. If I don't get a good night's sleep, I, all I want the next day is carbs, right? Katie: Carbs, Michelle: It's the quickest energy. Katie: I want. So it is crucial. Michelle: Yeah, for sure. I mean, cause that's what it is when you're tired, you want quick energy and the body knows instinctively that you'll get it with carbs. Katie: Absolutely. Michelle: course, that's not a very good source of energy. It's not, , an efficient one. Katie: Yeah, you run out of it very quickly. Michelle: And then other questions that I have is over brushing. Michelle: So some people think, okay, after everything that I eat, I'm going to brush my [00:12:00]teeth. What are your thoughts on that? Katie: Yeah, so there's a balance there, right? And what people want to try and avoid is brushing immediately after eating and drinking. Because we know that after you eat and drink, the pH in the mouth is going to go down. So what happens is we put something in our mouth, the mouth is the beginning of our digestive system. Katie: And so our body releases an enzyme in the mouth called amylase. And this amylase is an enzyme that starts to break down the carbohydrates in our mouth. So in order to do that, the pH has to drop. The pH also drops just because most of the stuff we put in our mouth is acidic anyway. And so you combine acidic food and drink with an acidic pH from, from the amylase secretion, and you're setting yourself up for a disaster of erosion and cavities. Katie: And so if you're going to eat or drink something, I always recommend to wait at least 30 minutes, before you brush. But people absolutely need to brush minimum twice a day. I mean that's like non negotiable I always recommend morning and night [00:13:00] if they can get one more in there during the day. That's great But if they can at least do two minutes morning and night, I think people are going to be pretty satisfied with Michelle: yeah, for sure. Now my other question is mercury fillings. Katie: yes Michelle: Yeah, let's talk about that because for a while, oh, it was like no big deal and now they're finding that it is. So it's kind of like brushed off a lot of times. I remember going to the dentist and asking for the white filler and, and he was kind of giving me pushback on that. Michelle: Yeah. Katie: And there's, unfortunately, you know, a lot of dentists out there that still believe that way. , and, you know, I hope your audience doesn't crucify me with this because I don't believe this. But their, their mindset is, and it is true, mercury fillings are stronger than the white composite fillings. Katie: Also, they're less technique sensitive when putting them in so if you're putting in a white composite filling little dental nerd out here You have to have everything completely Isolated [00:14:00]otherwise the white filling won't bond to the tooth and the filling will fail really quickly and the patient will get decay right underneath that Filling when you're packing in the mercury fillings. Katie: I mean, you're literally just Katie: It's called an amalgam, so it's an amalgamation of all this material. And so it doesn't matter if there's saliva. It doesn't matter if there's blood. , because it's not bonding to the two structures. So the dentists don't have to be as careful and think about it. I mean you're working in the mouth where there's tons of saliva and bleeding and things like that. Katie: So they're much Less technique sensitive to put in and they are stronger. , now the downside is they're filled with all kinds of things that are terrible for you. And we know, you know, think if you think about a mercury thermometer, right? There's a very small amount of mercury in that thermometer. But if a thermometer breaks in school, they shut the entire school down and call in a hazmat team to come clean it up, or a biohazardment team to come clean it up. Katie: Yet we're plugging this stuff into people's teeth. And the hard [00:15:00] thing about teeth, or the thing that people need to understand is that teeth are organs. And they have a blood supply, and they have a nerve supply, and to put that, that type of material, especially mercury, near blood supply that's connected to the rest of the body, or nerves that are connected to the rest of the body, in my opinion, is dangerous, you know, if we just use a little bit of common sense. Katie: And so I don't like mercury fillings. And now we're left with a bunch of patients that have them in their head Now, what do we do to remove them because you can't just go in and start Drilling them out and creating all this mercury vapor, right? Because it's not good for the dentist or the patient Michelle: So there's a biological dentists that specifically specialize in removing them. What are your thoughts on that? Katie: I I think it's really important to Go to someone that understands how to remove them correctly correctly. I would not consider myself You know the gold standard biologic dentist, you know, and the fact that I do all zirconia [00:16:00] implants and things like that But I definitely believe in safe amalgam removal because it's actually more dangerous for the provider who's removing the, the mercury filling and the assistant who's suctioning everything out than it is for the patient because we're creating all this vapor that's coming out of the mouth. Katie: Sure, it's coming into your body, but we're the ones that it's getting on our skin. You know, it's settling up next to our thyroid. So a lot of dentists have thyroid issues, myself included. This happened to me early on in my career when I started learning about this, they have fertility issues. , and so it's really important that dentists understand how to remove them safely. Katie: So I, I definitely, if I was having mercury fillings removed, I would make sure my dentist knew how to do it appropriately. Michelle: Yeah. Oh my god. You're giving such good information I really appreciate it because I think these are all questions that people have and you're giving a very well rounded very balanced Information Katie: I always say, you know, there's amalgam dentists, right? Like the traditional You know, every day dentist , and then there's the biologic dentist that do everything on the opposite end of the spectrum. Katie: I would say I'm [00:17:00] over halfway to the biologic dentist, but not all the way quite there. Michelle: Well, I guess it's kind of like traditional medicine. Katie: Yes. Traditional medicine. Yes, Michelle: It's, it's a little bit more of a holistic way to look at Katie: Yes. Yeah, Michelle: , and of course, even with what I do, even though I specialize in alternative medicine, I'm very much in the world of Western medicine because a lot of my patients need sometimes like conventional medical care  Michelle: so it's nice to have a balance of both. Katie: Yeah. I still, you know, I joke all the time. I still believe in science, right? , I still do testing. I still do modalities. There's a time and place for everything. I just think we need to be a little bit smarter about how we approach, you know, healthcare and dentistry and, , not use bad materials that we know are horrible for us. Michelle: 100%. What I'm finding actually is a lot of people in my world are very much now into studies and science. So there is a bridge that's coming together. And I see a lot of, REs that I have developed great relationships with are [00:18:00] very open to what I do to help their patients. So I'm starting to see this shift of everybody coming together, which I love. Katie: That makes me happy because, you know, I did infertility treatment for six years and I saw some of the best specialists in the country. Not one asked them about my oral health. And there's so much research out there about how oral health affects infertility and you know Thank goodness. My oral health was fine. Katie: Of course. I checked it before, you know, I went and did all this stuff But you know, it was just kind of shocking to me how siloed and hyper focused they practiced, you know, and just looking at the reproductive system and nothing else Michelle: Oh, yeah. And even in Spain, they'll check even the vaginal microbiome, which I find so interesting because there's a correlation between that being off and then fail transfers. So they do that like automatically and it increases their success rates and they'll give them like vaginal, Probiotics Katie: I love that Michelle: And, and that's like a thing here. It's not so as we [00:19:00] learn, I mean, and then of course, when I read it starts with egg, that's what really got me into the whole teeth thing and then seeing the science with that. And now, like, even for my intake form, I always have a section that talks about like, have you ever had dental work done because it's important, but you know, you learn, it's not something that I knew like automatically, but as I got more into it. Michelle: I learned. Another thing that I wanted to ask you, what are your thoughts about fluoride? Because I know this is a very hot topic. Katie: Hot topic right, you know, I think I think it's a, another conversation like mercury, right? I think for a very long time, we had this major issue of, we call it caries in the dental field, which is just cavities. And so we had, you know, dental decay is like the number one disease in the world. And we had all these. Katie: You know, kids and people that had rampant decay and instead of looking at diet and microbiome, which is what we should have done, we said, okay, well, let's create some sort of chemical or product [00:20:00] that we can do to treat right. We're treating the symptom, not the original form of what's causing it. And so they created this. Katie: But what we now know is that when you. swallow it and you ingest it systemically, it's not good for you. It's a, it's a neurotoxin. And there's so many, I think there's so many other ways that we can combat dental decay where we can get around using fluoride. Now, if I have a patient that comes in that's refusing to do any of these other things that I'm talking about, and they're a teenager, and they have rampant decay everywhere and I know they're not going to make any lifestyle, nutritional, or oral habit modifications. Katie: May I put some fluoride on their teeth? Sure, but it's going to be something that's isolated that they're not going to ingest and swallow. My preference is to not use that because I know that even if I put a little bit in their mouth, it's still going to get in their system. But not treating someone with rampant decay and having Having them lose teeth because of it, or worse, develop an abscess, which we [00:21:00] know abscesses are horrible for our overall health. Katie: To me, that's doing more harm than painting a little bit of fluoride on teeth. But I actually recommend to use products like Nanohydroxyapatite is awesome. It was developed for NASA a long, long time ago to help astronauts, , you know, to prevent them from, from getting decay. So if it's good enough for NASA, it's good enough for me, right? Katie: So I love Nanohydroxyapatite. I love M. I. paste. , I also love arginine. Arginine is something that a lot of people don't know a ton about, but there's a ton of research out there showing that toothpaste that are high in arginine, like Tom's for example, , prevent tooth decay and also help treat tooth sensitivity. Katie: So I think we have Michelle: I love Katie: so many great things out there that we could use in addition to, you know, making sure that we're balancing and nurturing our microbiome. Not eating Jolly Rancher is incredible. Michelle: Yeah, exactly. My kids have been fluoride free. They don't get fluoride. They've been using fluoride free toothpaste. [00:22:00] They have never had cavity. Katie: Amazing. Yeah, and they, and they should never need it, right? Our, Michelle: They floss too. Katie: Yeah, I mean, so there you go, right? And, but what people don't understand, and I would have patients come into my practice, and they would say like, well, I want fluoride free. And I'd say, okay, tell me about your diet. And it was breads and pastas and carbs and sugar and five cokes a day. Katie: And they don't brush or floss their teeth. And they think oil pulling is going to solve everything. You know, and I'm like that, we can't do that, right? We need to, we need to intervene here. But if, someone takes a holistic approach to their oral health care, they should never need fluoride. And we know that our cavity causing bacteria really peaks and starts to decline in mid thirties. Katie: And so if parents are healthy, Their kids are going to be healthy because you're number one modeling healthy lifestyle But number two you're transferring all of your microbiome to your kids And so another thing that people don't realize is that if a parent's mouth is Full of [00:23:00] cavities and gum disease the kids mouth is going to be full of it because you're sharing the same bacteria So good for you for you being healthy and then keeping your kids healthy, too. Michelle: Thank you. I love how balanced this conversation is. It's amazing information. , I just love this because it's so important and it's, it's information that a lot of people just don't have access to, and it's not even like, sometimes it's not even knowing that you need to have access to certain information, but it's like. Michelle: So important. And it could be like that one thing that people are not looking into when they're going through fertility treatments or just challenges overall, Katie: Yeah, and we know that fertility treatment actually increases our inflammatory levels and increases the leakiness of our gum tissue. So if the mouth isn't healthy to start, or even if there's a little bit of dysbiosis going on, fertility treatment is just going to exacerbate it. So it's best to get it treated, you know, it's safe to do it during pregnancy, but it's always best to do it beforehand. Michelle: Yeah, [00:24:00] for sure. So now, let's talk about Peelu gum. So you hear about Peelu gum, , that it's very good for your teeth. I just was wondering what your thoughts on it or if you know, like how it can impact Katie: I actually don't know what that is. Michelle: Oh, so Peelu is from a tree. It's the Peelu tree, I believe. And so they create this gum and it's sugar free, but it's like natural sweetener and it's supposed to actually help clean the teeth. Katie: Okay. Michelle: Yeah. So look into that. Yeah. If you find out anything, email me. Katie: Yeah. Do you know what the sweetener is in it? Is it Xylitol or do you know what's in it? Yeah. So anything with Xylitol I love, , Xylitol is a natural sweetener that tricks the bacteria in your mouth to thinking that it's sugar because that's what the bacteria thrive on. Katie: So the streptococcus mutans cavity causing bacteria in the mouth. What it does is it feeds off of sugar, so that can be sugar from candy or gum or, you know, breads, pastas, processed [00:25:00]carbohydrates, things like that. And then it excretes lactic acid on the teeth and that's what causes cavities. So xylitol, what it does, is the bacteria still thinks it's the sugar that it wants to eat, but once it eats it, it can't metabolize it, so it actually starts, from ingesting the xylitol. Katie: So I love that. I'm gonna look that up. I haven't heard of that Michelle: Yeah. They have it at Whole Foods. It's kind of like a more natural, you know, more natural, but it's supposed to be good for the teeth. Like I think that back in the day people used to chew on it. It was from trees and they would just chew on the actual whatever that was. But Katie: which that's good too, because again, you're chewing on fibrous branches, right? And that's really good to stimulate saliva. It's really good to work on your jaw muscles and it's really good to develop the structural skeleton of the jaw on the face. So Michelle: yeah, so maybe, a little gum chewing is okay. Katie: Oh, I love gum Michelle: strength. Katie: recommend it all the time. Yeah. That's actually one of the things that I do recommend for my patients. , because you know, like I mentioned, it stimulates [00:26:00] saliva. Saliva is like our best protector that we have of our teeth because it neutralizes the pH. It actually coats our teeth in, You know, this like biofilm, right? Katie: That's super healthy. So it protects the teeth from getting any bad bacteria stuck to it. So I'm a big fan of chewing gum. I think it's great. I recommend it for patients all the time. As long as it's sugar free, of Michelle: Yeah. So this might be the ideal thing, the Peelu gum. Katie: Yeah. Michelle: I happen to love it. So it's kind of my guilty pleasure. I try not to do it too much cause I know like it's just, you don't want to wear down your teeth, but Katie: should, I mean, you shouldn't, unless you're really grinding it, like you shouldn't be wearing down your Michelle: right. So it's, it probably protects it anyway. Okay. Well that's good to know. Cause I Katie: habit to do. Michelle: I learned something new. It's nice to hear that you, that you actually promote that or that you support doing that. That's awesome. Wow, this is great information. I know you also have a book about the mouth. Katie: Yes, so I wrote a book called Saved by the Mouth and it's all about how oral health [00:27:00]affects , virtually every organ system in the body. So we talk about brain health, heart health, cancer, fertility, of course, , aging, gut health. And so I wrote it from the, or I wrote it as if I was having a conversation with a patient because I wanted the information to be easily digestible. Katie: And entertaining. And so every, as entertaining as Michelle: I love that. Katie: guess. And so every chapter actually talks about a situation that I had with a patient in my practice and them having to deal with whatever ailment they were dealing with. And so it's, I think it's really relatable. It's a quick read. Katie: , and what I like about it too is it also goes over super simple daily modifications that people can do to improve their oral health and it doesn't have to be like a life changing makeover. They're just small things that you can do to improve health and then also what to ask your dentist for and you can go to any dentist and ask this. Katie: It doesn't have to be a biologic dentist. You know, asking for things [00:28:00] like salivary testing, that's super important to know what's in your microbiome. Asking for your gums to be measured, so you actually know if you have a gum infection, things like that. Michelle: Fantastic. And then you had also talked about how like when people are pregnant, sometimes people will say, don't do any dental work during that time. So talk about that. Cause that sounds like it's an important thing for Katie: it is. It drives me insane. , and I was trained that way, by the way. So, you know, people aren't doing anything wrong. It's, it's, it's, you know, a product of the education system, unfortunately. But what we know is that when people have gum infection, it affects fertility in all sorts of ways. You know, it. It affects not only men, or not only women, but also men. Katie: And We know that if once a woman is pregnant, if she has gum infection, she is 30 to 50 percent more likely to have a preterm birth, a low birth weight baby, or stillbirth. And we know that of [00:29:00] pregnant women, about 40 percent of them present with some sort of gum infection, whether it be gingivitis or gum disease. Katie: And yet, 56 percent of pregnant women avoid the dentist. So, with those statistics alone, you know, it only makes sense that we need to be treating our oral health ideally before you even start to try and get pregnant because it will help you get pregnant. But, you know, I, I always get questions from patients being like, well, I'm pregnant now, you know, what do I do? Katie: I, I feel like I might have something going on. Well, you absolutely should go to the dentist and get this treated because you want to try and avoid any sort of pregnancy complications and, and again, patients with perio infection gum disease or gingivitis are at much higher risk for, you know, having a complication with their baby. Katie: And we know that if they get perio treatment while pregnant, their medical costs will reduce about 74%. So it's very important for the outcome of the pregnancy for the mom, but also for the outcome of the pregnancy for the baby. Michelle: Wow. That is Katie: the [00:30:00] dentist. Michelle: important. Chinese Katie: I don't get elective care now What I'm what I'm not saying is to go get veneers done. Katie: Like so I don't want people to mishear me I'm saying, you know If you have a gum infection or tooth abscess, you absolutely should go get that treated while you're pregnant All elective care can can wait until after baby's here. Michelle: Such a good point. Interestingly enough, Chinese medicine, the teeth are an expression of the kidneys. Chinese medicine, the kidneys are not what we look at in conventional medicine. The kidneys are actually what houses your reproductive essence and health. So it's so crazy how there is this correlation. Michelle: I see this a lot. I see this quite often, actually, even with, the heart and brain different. Topic, but the heart houses the brain. This is how we're taught in Chinese medicine. And now they're seeing in heart math that there is this correlation between the heart and the brain. And there's a communication between the heart and the brain that it's measured. Michelle: So it's interesting how science is [00:31:00] connecting, you know, you're connecting the dots between what was talked about in Chinese medicine. That may not. Initially makes sense, but then you're seeing in science things that are proving those things. So it's pretty wild that we're coming to this place where it's bridging. Michelle: You're actually seeing the two connecting. Katie: knew about the meridians in the teeth, but I did not know about the kidneys and fertility in teeth. That just like really blew my mind. Michelle: Yeah, for sure. And it's interesting because as a child, you know, when they're, when they're little, you know, their, their body's developing and as they get closer to kind of reproductive years, that's when their real teeth come out. And then as, , the reproductive health declines and they're getting really old, the teeth fall out. Michelle: So it's kind of like this connection to essence. Katie: I just got goosebumps. Michelle: Very fascinating. It's just, the human body is Katie: And it, it's also tied with, with microbiome, right? Like when we're born, our microbiome [00:32:00] is the least diverse. , and the least strong. It's also the strongest, like what you say, in our reproductive year. So I always tell people, you know, when you're in your 20s, and, you know, you're invincible, and you can go out every night, and not get any sleep, and eat whatever you want, and never get sick, that's when your microbiome is the best. Katie: But then also, as you age, our microbiome starts to deplete again, in not only numbers, but also diversity, and then that's when we die. So it's, it's funny how this all Michelle: Yeah. Isn't that interesting? We have these like peaks and then valleys, so it's pretty wild. Katie: that is wild. Michelle: Yeah. So we're like building and then we're kind of sloping and going down. And then also I was curious to know your thoughts about like neem rinse or a tea tree, you know, instead of obviously alcohol, what are your thoughts on Katie: Yeah. Yeah. I, I love neem oil. I actually use neem oil in my hair all over my face, like all the stuff. I think anything that you can do to be more natural is [00:33:00] totally fine. I think the key is, is that patients need to make sure that they are healthy first. A lot of times I'll have people come in and they'll be like, you know, I haven't gone to the dentist in 10 years because I oil pull or I, you know, I use essential oils or rinse with coconut every day, but their mouth is a mess, right? Katie: And they've inflammation everywhere and calculus everywhere and cavities. And so I always tell people is go to the dentist. Get a clean bill of health or if you're not healthy at least have them You know clean you up and get you healthy and then use those tools to maintain yourself over time You know when patients don't floss their teeth they get little clicks Or little nodules of calculus that build up in between their teeth under their gum line. Katie: There's nothing but mechanical debridement that will remove that. And there's no amount of oil pooling in the world that will treat that. And that's what's going to cause gum infection and gum disease. So, you know, if people want to use neem rinses and tea tree and things like that, great. Tea tree is also good for pain. Katie: You know, if someone has a little [00:34:00] ulcer in their mouth, it's great for that. Very antibacterial, neem is great for that, antifungal, all those things. But get clean first, get a clean bill of health, and then use those tools in your toolbox to maintain that bill of health. Michelle: Yeah, definitely. No doubt. I'm every six months we get our teeth cleaned. It's, it's important to actually get it because you feel it. You feel all the calcification and I even have my own little scraper. Sometimes I'll just get in between, in between times. Cause I'm like, I can't wait until the next six months. Michelle: Cause it does, it builds up. And then if you have tea and all kinds of different things, like it just, it's there. Katie: Yeah, so when we have plaque, plaque starts forming on our teeth just a couple hours after we're done brushing. So that's why ideally, if someone can brush three times a day, that's great. At least twice, you know, you'll be okay. But what happens is, once that plaque sits there, it starts to really mature. Katie: And it gets really, it gets harder to remove because the, the extracellular matrices of the bacteria really start to connect and, and strengthen its attachment to the teeth. Then we mix it with the minerals in our [00:35:00] saliva, and then it hardens and it calcifies into calculus or what people know as tartar. Katie: Once it's hardened, you cannot get that off unless you remove it with a scaler or something like that. And so it is important to go in and get it removed. Because, you know, even with a scaler, I do it to scale my teeth all the time. There's places you can't obviously reach, you know, like underneath the gum tissue in between that have to be removed. Katie: And so I actually recommend for people to go in to see their dentist about every three to four months, even if they are healthy. Because we know that bacteria repopulate about every 90 days. , and so in my opinion, six months is too long. Someone like you who's super healthy, you know, probably doesn't need to go in. Katie: But for the vast majority of Americans especially, they should be staying every three to four months for sure. , to prevent disease. You know, we, It's crazy. Cause the six month timeframe came about because of insurance. It, Michelle: No, that's exactly why we do six months. Cause our insurance pays for that. Katie: yes. It was never a medically, , [00:36:00] science based driven Michelle: Isn't that amazing how the Katie: Yeah, it was, it was dictated by insurance and it's only after. You get an irreversible diagnosis of gum disease, which is irreversible Once you have that once you have gum disease, we know you have that bacteria in your heart We know it's in your brain We know it's all over the body But it's only until you get that irreversible diagnosis of gum disease that now your insurance will allow you to go in every every three Months, that's crazy In my mind, why not go every three to four months and prevent an irreversible disease? Michelle: totally, but you know common sense common sense Doesn't always translate into the system Katie: wish we used our brains more. In Michelle: Yeah, that's crazy. So another question I have lastly like this is another thing My mom sent me this video on Facebook of a dentist showing how to properly Brush the teeth. So we typically will just keep going back and forth, but he said, all you have to do is [00:37:00] kind of go from the gums up, gums up to remove the food, because when you're going back and forth, all you're doing is just mixing the bacteria in the same space. Michelle: You're not moving it up. So just wanted to ask you what you thought about that. Katie: Oh, yeah, I mean, you can, you can do that. Sure, it's fine. The, the point of brushing the teeth, you know, what I always tell people is, the saying is brush your teeth, but what we're really saying is brush the gum line. And so, plaques sits on our, two places. One is it sits on our gum line. That's where it starts to accumulate. Katie: Then it also sits on top of the teeth in the little grooves. So to prevent cavities, you want to brush the tops of the teeth to get everything, get all the food out of the grooves of the teeth. But the most important thing, especially to prevent gum inflammation is to brush along the gum line of the teeth. Katie: And the goal of that is to disrupt the biofilm. So sure, if you're brushing up like that's great, you're brushing it away from the gums. But what you really want to do is just do whatever you can to disrupt that biofilm because you're going to spit it out. Once you get the plaque [00:38:00] biofilm disrupted, it's loose. Katie: You're going to spit it out in the sink. You know, I can't even get people to brush twice a day for two minutes, let alone having them do something as technique sensitive as that. So I just tell people angle your toothbrush at 45 degrees. Right at the gum line. Use an electric toothbrush because it'll be gentle. Katie: Don't get a hard, hard or medium bristled toothbrush. Very light pressure. Plaque is so soft. You don't have to use any pressure. You just want to disrupt that biofilm along the gum line. Spit it out. Rinsing afterwards is great. Luff, you know, obviously everyone needs to floss every day. , and then tongue scraping is really important. Michelle: Awesome. This was great information. I'm so happy that I had you on today. So this is just such great information. So for people who want to learn more about you and read your book, how can they find you? Katie: Yeah. So, , they can follow me on Instagram. I'm pretty good at, at, , responding to the DMS on Instagram. , so [00:39:00] katyleedds on Instagram. My website is also katyleedds. I do Salivary testing for fertility patients. And so if someone wants to check their microbiome and see if they have the bacteria that impact, , Fertility, we do saliva tests for them remotely. Katie: , and then my book is called Saved by the Mouth. They can get it off my website or on Amazon. Michelle: Well, Dr. Lee, it was such a pleasure talking to you. I really enjoy your mind and picking your brain I just love how well balanced your information is and, and also just, it's priceless. It's so important. Katie: Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity

Allison is a Traditional Chinese Medicine Practitioner and Integrative Health Practitioner based out of Vancouver British Columbia. She is a fellow of the American Acupuncture and TCM Board of Reproductive Medicine (ABORM) and a member of the Obstetrical Acupuncture Association (OBAA). With additional training in fertility and reproductive health as well as her personal experience with stage 3 endometriosis, Allison is particularly passionate about treating endometriosis and chronic pelvic pain. Website: https://www.seaofqihealing.com/ Instagram: @sea_of_qi_healing Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sea_of_qi_healing For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ Transcript: Michelle:[00:00:00]Welcome to the podcast, Alison. Allison:Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Michelle: Well, I'm so excited to have you on and I thoroughly enjoy your Instagram, by the way. Allison: Oh, thank you. Michelle: you guys got to check out her Instagram. I have it in the episode notes. You have so much great information. Allison: Oh, thank Michelle: You're, you're really knowledgeable about your topic. Allison: Yeah, I, love doing any kind of, I love the social media part. I love educating. I love trying to have like a fun humorous spin on it too. So I have fun with my social media. Michelle: Awesome. So for the listeners , I would love it. If you can give us a bit about your background and how your own personal journey really got you to the work that you're doing. Allison: Sure. So I'm an acupuncturist and integrative health practitioner based out of Vancouver, B. C. And I have, special interest in kind of fertility, reproductive health, hormone health, menstrual cycle stuff. I was kind of thrown into that field of work upon graduating school. And[00:01:00]that's kind of when I fell in love with it, when I started learning more about the menstrual cycle and hormones and fertility. Allison: And I realized how much there is to know and how, how many, People who menstruate don't know about their hormones and fertility and so I thought it was such an important aspect of health to to educate more on and it wasn't until a few years into my practice that I was actually diagnosed with my own kind of hormone issues as well. Allison: So that's when I was diagnosed with gynecological condition and Andever since then, I've just been obsessed with learning everything I can about endometriosis and hormones and trying to help people that are kind of in the same shoes that I am. Michelle:  So,so tell us, well, how, how did you actually get into it? Did you, did you work for somebody who specialized in fertility? Michelle: When you got out of school, Allison: Yeah, so the clinic that I wanted to work at that I was kind of interning atin transitioning[00:04:00]into that was their kind of their their bread and butter. So they did a lot of fertility and women's health. And so upon graduating and starting to work there, it was just kind of part of my education of like all my program. Allison: You know, extended learning and mentorships and stuff were under people that specialized in fertility, so I had this, like, really great knowledge base and, you know, experience right off the bat, which was really crucial for specializing in this, and it was, yeah, it really, really helped a lot. Michelle: that's awesome And so I know that we hear a lot of common myths I mean one of the things I think that was eye opening for me is like Menstrual cycle like pms and all of the things that we have are actually not normal Even though they're common you don't realize this until you learn what you learn And that's when you're like, oh my god, this is actually not normal and it's It's an imbalance and we can work on that. Michelle: Like it almost feels like we just accept it as reality. So I'd love it if you could talk about some of the common myths[00:05:00]that you see and like, let's bust them. Allison: Yeah. I feel like that's a really huge one that like PMS and period pain is normal. And like to an extent, likea little bit of PMS, like a little bit of menstrual discomfort to an extent can be normal. I mean, your body's doing, you know, a very physical thing, but if there's like really severe PMS, that's really disrupting your quality of life. Allison: If there's really painful cramps, that's impacting your ability to go out with your friends or work or any of that, that's a, that's absolutely a sign that something is wrong, that there's a hormonal issue, there's inflammation, there's something else going on that we need to look further. And you're right, we are just kind of like programmed as women as like, this is just how it is. Allison: We just, you know, suck it up and get on with our day and that's just kind of how I feel like a lot of us, especially my generation, we were just kind of programmed to do that. This is just a part of being a woman and this is a normal part of being a woman. But in fact, our period and it's kind of like our monthly report card of how everything in her body is doing. Allison: And[00:06:00]it's such a great visual of like okay, these are my PMS symptoms and this is kind of what it's telling me. And then this is how my periodis. And this is what it looks like. And this is what it feels like. And that's also telling you so much information about your hormones. And I think that's kind of what I really love about Chinese medicine too, because even. Allison: If things are like, you know, normal, according to Western medicine, like I have a lot of patients with really bad cramps that go to their doctor and they're like, well, everything in your blood work is normal. Your ultrasound's normal, but they're still having like debilitating pain. And that's when I think like Chinese medicine. Allison: is really powerful because we'll obviously see like, Oh, you've got no tons of liver cheese stagnation or blood stasis, or I'm seeing so many symptoms of coldin the uterus. And it's almost like really, it's just really empowering. I feel like for the patient too, where it's like, no, we don't see everything like checked off as normal, even though your blood work and ultrasound is okay. Allison: I mean, that's really great too. But for Chinese medicine, we're always looking at[00:07:00]this deeper underlying pattern and all these subtleties. And it's kind of painting this picture of the imbalance. Michelle: Yeah, totally. It's it was really eye opening for me because I had one patient with severe PMS to the point where she was like, I have to avoid people because I'm just not like a kind person around that time. And she was just, and she was actually a friend of mine and I was like, you know what, I'll help you. Michelle: No problem. And so she started coming in And one time she wasn't trying to get pregnant and she was like, she thought she was going to be late because she was like, I'm not getting any of my symptoms and I'm supposed to get them right around this time. Something's off. And then all of a sudden she just gets her period. Michelle: She goes, what? She's like, I just got my period. And I'm like, exactly.I'm like, Allison: I love that. Michelle: G is flowing really freely right now. That's why.Allison: Yeah. That's like the magic of Chinese medicine. Michelle:Totally! Allison:The surprise Michelle: total flow. Yes,[00:08:00]exactly. It's like the flow, Allison: Yeah, your period should kind of sneak up a little bit on you. Yeah. Michelle: Yeah. I mean, you do feel, you know, you definitely like feel your body's cues and the same thing with ovulation. When you get really in tune with your body, it is important to be able to like pick up on the details, but it shouldn't be so severe to the point where you can't, like you said, you can't deal with normal life events. Allison: Mm hmm. Yeah, definitely. Michelle:So what are some of the most common things that you see when itcomes to the menstrual cycle irregularities? Regarding fertility,Allison: Yeah, so there's a lot of different patterns and that's kind of the really funpart about Chinese medicine is that we're kind of like little detectives and we're like piecing together every symptom and kind of painting this picture of what's going on internally with the patient. So I mean, like each organ system has its own characteristics and they all kind of play a role in fertility and overall health. Allison: Because we don't really[00:09:00]think of in Chinese medicine as, Oh,the reproductive organs are just their own specific thing. It's kind of the wholebody has has a, has a play in it. So like what you're talking about, the liver chi, the liver chi is so tied to menstrual health. I am working with liver chi day in and day out when I'm working with fertility and endometriosis and hormone health. Allison: So the liver chi is like really, really important to makesure that everything's moving smoothly in the body and that's emotionally and physically. And then like the spleen chi and stomach chi in the digestive system is also really important because we want to make sure that your body is able to get all the nutrients that it needs and there's not a lot of inflammation there. Allison: We want to make sure the blood is moving really smoothly, like blood stagnation, cheese stagnation digestive deficiencies. I see that a lot. And then the kidney organ system is also really tied to fertility in Chinese medicine because it's kind of like, gives you that kind of DNA deep level energy to the egg cells and the sperm cells. Allison: And so making sure that those are really healthy because a lot of poor lifestyle or[00:10:00]genetics can impact the kidney energy system. So we always want to kind of help support the kidney energy with fertility. Michelle:Yeah, for sure. What I find really interesting and hopeful about really how Chinese medicine talks about the kidneys and talks about like the essence is, is that there's like pre heaven and post heaven. And so yes, pre heaven, we can't really do much about because that's pretty much what comes from our parents. Michelle: But post heaven is really how we choose to live our life. And we've seen that we can actually reverse age like biological age through the choices that we make. And I find that to be great. It's very empowering to know that your choices can make a difference on your body. Allison: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that kind of goes back to where I really feel like Chinese medicine is such an empowering medicine because there's so much that you can do, diet, lifestyle, herbs, supplements, acupuncture, all those things really can have such a huge positive impact. And it's kind of like, yeah, I love the pre heaven and post heaven. Allison:We are[00:11:00]kind of given what we're got with like our basic genetic blueprint, but our post heaven essence is like epigenetics, where we have the huge percentage of, you know, influence over our health, no matter what our genes are saying and we have so much influence over that that part of it, and I think Chinese medicine plays a huge role in that. Michelle: And do you find that there is a correlation because I mean, listen, we're living in a, a very toxic life, like the environment, everything's just like around us and the foods that we eat, the extra ingredients that they put in it's it's the reality is that you really have to be careful on what you expose yourself to, what kind of cosmetics. Michelle: and the endocrine disruptors, I feel like that really bogs down the liver and It weakens its ability to do its job. And then sometimes I'll see things like Fibroids or certain things kind of popping up because the body's not able to likereally clear up the toxins. Michelle: And sometimes I'll find that the[00:12:00]person is working in an environment that has more toxins than normal. And so we have to kind of work extra, a little extra to release that or clear that out. And even for IVF, I like to do that as well. Right after retrieval do some kind of like very mild, you know, nothing too harsh But like mild liver detox to just help the body release the excess hormones, you know Because I really feel like that aspect of it can really impact the way the reproductive health expresses itself. Allison:yeah, I completely agree. I think there's a lot of, a lot of things in our world right now that are impacting our liver. And we are, as Chinese medicine practitioners, seeing that reflected a lot in liver cheese stagnation. And I think that's why there's so much PMS and period pain and infertility kind of that's pretty rampant because we are seeing, like I don't think I have a single patient where theirliver didn't need like a little bit of support in the Western sense and in the Chinese. Allison: medicine sense.[00:13:00]So yeah, I do love that you that you do payattention to that. And especially like post IVF or something, when all those medications you're it's really working the liver and not that those are bad medications at all because they're really useful and they're doing really wonderful things for patients to help reach their, their goals. Allison: But yeah, you're right. I do think there is a place where we can kind of help support the liver, especially post IVF. Michelle: Yeah for sure. So as far as endometriosis, I know that like gut health is really, really, really important when it comes to endometriosis. So the inflammation, how that impacts leaky gut. So what are some of the correlations or like the patterns, not necessarily just with Chinese medicine, and you could talk about that as well, but like just some of the links that you've noticed or the things that tend to go hand in hand. Michelle: With endometriosis. Allison: Yeah, that's a really good question. I love that you asked that because endometriosis is such a full body disease, like it's not just[00:14:00]something that's happening in the pelvis. So yeah, the gut connection is huge. I find that to be honestly, like one of the biggest roots of something that we need to focus on and kind of like rectify with a lot of my patients with endometriosis because the gut is such a foundational pillar of health. Allison: And so if there's anything going on there with like leaky gut ormicrobiome or their subclinical gut infections or SIBO or whatever is going on, then we really need to work on. Kind of correcting the dysbiosis because not onlydoes that create a lot of inflammation, but there's also such a huge microbiome and bacterial component to endometriosis. Allison: Like, there's so much research coming out about how people withendometriosis have different vaginal and uterine microbiomes. And all of our microbiomes in our body are connected. So I really do feel like if we focus a lot on gut health and working on any kind of issues that are super apparent there, then it makes such a huge difference in like overall inflammatory levels, which are totally going to[00:15:00]help with a lot of the endosymptoms and the endo pain.  Allison:But also kind of helping with the microbiome component is really important for fertility because we do know a good vaginal and uterine microbiomeis super important for fertility, but I also find it really helpful for endosymptoms. And then I also love looking at the nervous system because I find that if we're kind of like, if we've got some like circadian rhythm dysfunction, because we're not sleeping well or we don't have good sleep hygiene or if we're just kind of continuously operating out of fight or flight mode and we're just never in parasympathetic mode, that's going to totally cause a lot of inflammation in the body and that's going to absolutely affect your endometriosis. Allison: So those are two things that I find. a lot of people with endo can benefit from working on. And that's, yeah, correcting any gut dysbiosis and really working on gut health. And then also really working with the nervous system. Like we really need to work on this chronic stress epidemic and like having a good circadian rhythm. Allison: I've been doing a[00:16:00]lot of, I've been like looking a lot into like the cortisol awakening response lately. I've been really nerding out about it and how it's how your cortisol levels like really need to have that initial spike in the morning. And not only for you to like feel good and get out of bed, but also it's areally important indicator of like inflammatory levels in your body. Allison: And there's also a really important autoimmune component. And we do know that endometriosis has this kind of auto-immune overlap with it. And so any of my patients that I am hearing like, Oh, how do you feel like when you get out of bed? Like, how long does it take you to kind of feel alive in the morning? Allison: Once you get out of bed, if it's like, Oh, two hours and five cups of coffee. I definitely know that there is some cortisol awakening response that we need to kind of work on in order to like really help with the immune and inflammatory stuff. So, yeah, those are a couple of things that I'm always looking at for my endo patients. Michelle: That's really great information. Vaginal microbiome I think is huge because I actually was at a mega spore[00:17:00]biotic on the microbiome labs.They had a little conference and I listened to a lecture by Dr. Jolene Brighton and she was talking about the vaginal microbiome and Allison: Oh, I love her. Michelle: She's amazing.Michelle: She always has great information. She just always delivers. And so she talked about that and she said that in, in Spain, they'll always check the vaginal microbiome. And especially when people are doing IVF and transfers specifically. And I had one of my patients going to Spain. Michelle: A lot of people go to Spain. I mean, they save money. The only thing is they lose money with the flights and everything, but they're really good doctors and like the clinics are great. And so what they do is they actually have, I'm almost like always on a protocol to check their vaginal microbiome. Michelle: They always check it before transfers and they have these women going on vaginal suppositories for the microbiome to support it. And I had. A recent patient who was like advanced[00:18:00]maternal age and she's pregnant. But she was on the suppositories. Michelle: They were checking and making sure because they said that she was mentioning that there's a link between, I guess, imbalanced vaginal microbiomes, a little different in the sense that it's. Like, you don't want diversity. You want it to be more like a specific type of strain. She was saying that there's a connection between a poor balance of the vaginal microbiome and recurrent miscarriages, unexplained infertility and failed transfers. And that's huge. That's so important. And nobody really checks here. Like. In our world, North America. Allison: Yeah. Well, actually in Vancouver, where I am, there's one clinic that does for some patients. And I, I have like the past, yeah, the past year. So I've been having a lot more patients do some microbiome testing. They'll do the swab. It's called the Emma Ellis. I think that they do it here. In in a couple of the clinics and they'll do the probiotic suppositories. Allison: And I honestly like tell my patients to go get them[00:19:00]too and jerk them where they can find them because I think it's always a benefit. Like it's not, it's such a harmless intervention. It can only help like and it's, they're so easy to do. It's so affordable. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and it does improve transfer results and pregnancy rates and everything, and so, yeah, I'm, I'm a huge fan of  Michelle: no brainer. Allison: testing for fertility. Allison:Yeah, Michelle: Yeah. It's a no brainer. And I think that it's so important and I, I'm so glad you brought it up. And I'm glad to know that some places are doing it places. I haven't seen it yet. I haven't seen that to be like really. And I've been actually running it for some of my patients. But I'm glad to Allison: Oh, nice. Michelle:people are starting to do that. Michelle: That's great. And then as far as a nervous system and circadian rhythm, that's huge because it's kind of like, I always look at it almost as like the second-hand is going to impact the hour hand. So like the second hand could be like our 24-hour cycle versus our 30 day cycle or[00:20:00]infradian rhythm. So the circadian rhythm impacts the infradian rhythm. Michelle: So it's important to have a good circadian rhythm. Interestingly, if I lookback, I had, I also have a history of We all started as patients, a lot of us. So I have a Allison: Yeah, right? Ah. Michelle:I did was I, I used to have the worst circadian rhythm. I used to not beable to wake up in the mornings. Michelle: Like I would, if left to my own devices, I would stay up until like, I would sleep until 2 PM some days when I was like younger in my twenties, andthen I'd. I'd stay up till two, three, four sometimes. I mean, I was just completely off and I don't know, I always blamed it on college or whatever, but it was just definitely my rhythm. Michelle: It was just the way my body was. And now I'm much more regular just over time. And it kind of synchronized with like my, menstrual cycle. So is that something that you see often?[00:21:00]Allison: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, and it always kind of goes back to like, Chinese medicine roots of like, we, we need to sync with nature. Like, when the sun's down, that's our yin time. That's not the time to do a lot of work or exercise. That'sthe time that we're supposed to be slowing down. We're supposed to be asleep.  Allison: Like, I'm always coaching my patients, like, I want you in bed. by 10pm, 11pm at the latest. I do not care if, like, you're naturally a night owl. Like, that is the kind of ideal Chinese medicine bedtime. Because we really do get those better hours of sleep in the earlier hours of the night. We get that deep, restful sleep. Allison: And it really does make a huge difference. I've been, yeah, personally, like, really prioritizing regular sleep cycle the past couple years. And it's been, like, revolutionary for me for how I feel like mood and energy, but also I my endosymptoms and I also had an autoimmune disease. And so it's been really helpful for that. Allison: So I think it's really easy to overlook the basics of like, well, I'm gettingmy eight hours, even if I'm going to bed at 2am or,[00:22:00]you know, sleep, I'm getting enough, I'm getting about six, seven hours. That should be enough. But it's like really irregular times. Like your body can't really cope with that. Allison: And I think it's really important that we go back to these like. Super basic principles of like, are you sleeping on time? Are you eating at regular intervals?Are you doing regular movement? Like these really basic things, these small habits really add up to make such a huge difference in health problems and especially even like super complex chronic health problems. Allison: It can be really revolutionary. Michelle:Oh yeah. And there's definitely studies that have been linked to irregular periods and also infertility when it comes to having night shifts. So like night shift hours, it really impacts the reproductive health. So it's really fascinating because it's not just the hours. It's really when it's the, when. Michelle: not just the amount. Allison: Mm hmm. Michelle: So I studied Ayurvedic medicine. That was also very eye opening when it comes to like really understanding the rhythms of nature and how[00:23:00]our bodies synchronize and also the elements of food and really understanding like how our bodies do better. Michelle: It's almost like really understanding the time cycle of the day and optimizing it. And when it comes to intermittent fasting. Fasting itself is actually really, it could be very beneficial if done right. And I want to say that like really,really in strong words, if done right, because I personally, from what I understoodand how much I've, I've learned as far as the sun goes, like the sun helps our acne, which is our digestifier. Michelle: So if we, the best time to eat really is during the day. So breakfast lunch, lunch should be the largest meal of the day and that's when you should have those difficult to digest proteins and have that like during that time because at that time the sun is at its highest Where the day is the most young it could be and so you want that young energy that[00:24:00]fire to be supported by nature's rhythms to help your own digestive fire and And then what you could do if you want to fast is fast at night versus in the morning. Michelle: And that's what a lot of people do. They'll fast in the morning and it's been shown that it could possibly not be great for women because it's been mostly studied on men and they have a completely different rhythm. So that's something that I always suggest. If you really do feel that you need to fast for a little bit and have like a little break digestive wise, it's better to do it when the sun goes down. Allison: Yeah, I completely agree. And I do feel the same about fasting. Like, I, to an extent, I like fasting, like, you know, a good maybe 12, 13 hours, maybe 14 hours for some metabolically flexible people, but I've always been a huge component of breakfast just because, in Chinese medicine, like, the stomach channel, time, is in that morning, and that's kind of always when historically theysay that's a great time to eat,[00:25:00]and I feel like, yeah, this huge intermittent fasting kind of craze can be good to an extent and when utilized properly, but I'm always going to go back to, like, what have we been doing for 2, 000 years that has been working really well? Allison: Like, I think there's a lot of parts to Chinese medicine where yeah, a lot of the health trends and health fads are just not going to resonate, and that's kind of,like, always my good reminder of like, okay, well, let's go back to what nature and what has been working for humans for, you know, thousands of years. Allison: Right. Michelle: think about like the light cause like light light hygiene, cause you want to call it, you want, you want to get exposure to light early in the morning so that your body knows. Cause that's how our bodies respond. Our bodies really respond to light. So I always kind of, I always prescribe this, like go early in the morning, get some sunlight while it's safe early, early. Michelle: And then of course, obviously protect your skin if you're skin sensitive and especially later on, but like early in the morning, it's easier. For your body to process.[00:26:00]I almost kind of compare this in my mind as like a hose of water. So you want water. When it's trickling, it's much easier to drink. Michelle: And then like in the middle of the day, when it's like shooting out, you're, you're going to choke. It's too much. So it's better to have it early in the morning. We're able to really get the vitamins. And I remember my grandmother always telling me early morning sun will give you the most vitamins. Michelle: That's how she explained it. The most nutrients. And she was right. She was right. She said that. She's like early morning sun. That's what you want. And so, and not only that, it also anchors the circadian rhythm and then also getting moonlight. So like not having the fake light, dimming the light at night, and that could really, so that's why I would say like light hygiene is to kind of dim it at night so that we go back to our roots. Michelle: And this is just, it's what nature has intended for us. Allison: Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. All of that. I mean, it's always a good reminder to go back to[00:27:00]nature of, like, the super basics. When it's dark, like, it should be dark. It should be quiet. It should be in. It should be asleep. And then, yeah, during the daytime, that's when things are active, including our digestive system. Allison: Like, it seems, yeah, nature was designed for it to be pretty clear to us,like, what we're supposed to be doing. Michelle: Yeah. For sure. And what are your thoughts about taking melatonin supplements? Allison: think it can be helpful. I mean, I am not a huge and high dose melatonin. So I'm more of like the one to three milligrams because that's kind of akin to what is naturally produced in the body. There are a lot of there's some research that shows that a high dose can be good for endometriosis, like even up to 10 milligrams because of its antioxidant effect. Allison: But I, I've, I've only had it be helpful for a small group of patients, like not a lot. So it's not my favorite one to go to because I just, I don't think that it's going to be hugely beneficial for the circadian rhythm. But I do find it[00:28:00]helpful for some patients and I love it as like a general antioxidant. Allison: If your levels are kind of low because you know, we're not, we have so much light in the night time and stuff. So our bodies are naturally kind of, I bet a bit melatonin deficient. If it's, if you're taking a decent dosage of like one to three milligrams and it's really helping you sleep and you're noticing a huge difference, awesome. Allison: But I also see a lot of patients where it doesn't do a lot for them or it makes them feel groggy. And so I think it's a really case by case dependent. Like if it works for you and you're on a good dosage, awesome. If it's not, like I'm not too hard pressed, like there's a lot of other alternatives. I like, I love a lot of adaptogens and stuff. Allison: too, that can kind of help reset their circadian rhythm too. So, yeah, it's not my absolute favorite go to but there is like some really good research with it for fertility and egg quality because of its antioxidant effect. So I don't hate it. Michelle: Yeah. Well, the great thing is, is that getting that early morning sunlight induces cellular melatonin. So it actually brings that out of you, so it is a great way to get that, Allison: that is true. Michelle: natural light,[00:29:00]but also through light therapy. So light therapy can help that as well. Michelle: So is there anything else that you're like passionate about, excited about that you're like learning about recently that you're finding is really helpful for your patients? Allison: Besides the cortisol awakening response, which I've been really nerding out about and just like cortisol in general, I find it's such an underrated hormone and people are either like, Oh, we want to squash it or we want to raise it. But that's like so much more complex and intricate than that. So I've been really kind of diving into that and like some more Dutch test stuff. Allison: I find, I am always just learning, I love learning so much about estrogen metabolism and methylation because I find that a lot of patients who are struggling with reproductive health stuff and fertility and especially endo and stuff a lot of them are, we're just not metabolizing and methylating estrogen correctly. Allison: And so it's, that's causing a lot of symptoms. And so I've been really kind of doing a lot of research into that, which I've been finding so interesting. So yeah, I feel like that's kind[00:30:00]of, yeah, liver, cortisol, all that kind of Michelle: stuff, liver stuff again. So what, what have you. Allison: Always back to the liver. Michelle: Yes. What have you seen is effective for estrogen metabolism. Allison: yeah, well, it depends, like, at which phase people are having the issues. If it's, like the metabolizing into the 4 2 OH, or if it's, like, the actual methylationprocess, because there's different, you know, supplements and herbs that all, I'll recommend. So that's why I really love testing. So we can really like see exactly where the issue is, or if it's in phase three estrogen metabolism, where we really need to focus on the gut health again because there's too much beta glucuronidase,that's recirculating estrogen levels and stuff. Allison: And so there's different things that we can do for that. But yeah, I just love like, The basic things that your liver needs is like magnesium, B vitamins enough protein, enough iron. Like there's some really basic stuff that I think, if a lot of if we're just really focusing on through like healthy nutrition and stuff, then alot of that stuff can be helped. Allison: [00:31:00]So we don't, honestly, we don't even need like, crazy amounts of supplements and herbs if there's these issues going on. Sometimes your body just needs like a really basic levels of magnesium and B vitamins and hydration and amino acids and stuff and then all these things can kind of work efficiently. Michelle:Yeah. Sometimes I find just warm water and lemon on an empty stomach every day because lemon is like the sour taste for the liver. Just something like that. It's such a simple, it's so simple. It's almost too simple that people think it's like, how could this work? It's too simple, Allison: Yeah. Michelle: amazing that I find. Allison: Yeah, that's kind of how I feel about like castor oil packs, too. Michelle: Yeah. Oh, yeah. So talk about those because that that's actually really effective I find and moving like the lymph and moving that stagnation. Allison: Absolutely. Yeah, I'm a huge fan of castor oil packs, especially like after my patients have endosurgery where they have laparoscopic abdominal surgery to remove the endo lesions. I love using[00:32:00]castor oil packs post operatively to help like reduce scar tissue formation and to really help with the healing process and the blood circulation and lymphatic movement and everything. Allison: So castor oil packs are basically you apply castor oil to the abdomen or liver and then you place a heat pack on it and you kind of just relax with the heat. To as the oil kind of seeps into your skin and does all the magic that it needs to. And it is such like a simple intervention just like warm lemon water in the morning that I find is just such an easy thing to do. Allison: It's really cost effective, it's really relaxing. Like it doesn't take a lot of effort. You can do it like while you're watching tv. Like it's a really easy thing to kind of incorporate into, into your life. But I do find it really, really helpful for like reducing period cramps, helping people to recover post abdominal surgery for liver detoxification. Allison: Like done regularly, it can, you know, have a lot of really positive impact. Michelle: for sure And what are your thoughts on when to do it on the menstrual cycle because I do hear like conflicting perspectives on when[00:33:00]you should do it and then you can also move it at certain times to the liver rather than the abdomen. Allison: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, so I'll never recommend it during menstruation, or like at least during your heavy days because I do think it can cause a little bit too much blood circulation and that just might increase the bleeding. And then I'll never recommend it after ovulation if you're trying to conceive. Allison: So if there's any chance of pregnancy, we kind of just want to like take care of that like precious area. We don't want to do anything to moving or detoxing. Like that's even like a point in the menstrual cycle where I won't do too many abdominal points. Like I kind of just like let your body do what it needs todo. Allison:Like it knows how to do it. I'll do a lot more distal stuff to kind of help with blood circulation and hormone balance and whatever we're working on. But yeah, anytime that there's any chance of pregnancy, I like to leave the lower belly alone. Michelle: No, it's true. I, I do the same thing. Actually. I do like right after ovulation. I tell them not to do it and they're like, and it pretty much[00:34:00]minimizes the window to like, after period, you know, in between that point, but I, usually like to be a little more conservative on that as well, unless you're trying to prepare your body ahead of time. Allison: I'm definitely on the cautious side. Michelle:Yeah, me too. You might as well. Yeah, totally. So this is great. Great conversation. I'm sure we can keep talking about all kinds of topics and questions.And so if people want to work with you, so you do Dutch testing, you do sometesting and you do some online work. Allison: Yeah, so I'm CFG healing on all the social medias and my website. I'm seeing patients in person in Vancouver and Burnaby, British Columbia, and I do see a small amount of patients virtually. So if you're elsewhere and want to work with me, we can do some telehealth. Michelle: Fantastic. Well, Alison, it was awesome speaking to you. And thank you so much for your insight and information. And guys, I[00:35:00]definitely recommend you check out her Instagram because it's like loads of information. You're going to learn so much. I'm learning so much because I love really collaborating and talking to other practitioners because you can always learn something new. Michelle: That's what I find. You just can always learn something because everybody has a different perspective. Allison: Yeah, that's so true, and I'm an avid regular listener to your podcast, and I could say the same. I always learn so much from you and all the people that you interview, so thank you for doing what you do. Michelle: Oh, that's awesome. Well, I admire you. So that's really nice to hear that coming from you. So thank you so much, Alison, for coming on today. Allison:Thanks, Michelle.            

Kaely McDevitt is a Registered Dietitian specializing in nutrition for women's health. She owns a virtual private practice where she and her team help their clients reclaim their energy, optimize fertility and overcome hormone symptoms through personalized nutrition. Having experienced the pitfalls of a conventional approach to women's health firsthand, Kaely is passionate about empowering women to build health from a place of connection: to self, to nature and to community. Links: Kaely's Gift: https://kaelyrd.kartra.com/page/foptin Instagram: @kaelyrd Website: https://www.kaelyrd.com Doors are closing soon for my Wholesome Fertility Transformation Program! Join us today! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/Fertility-Transformation-Group-Coaching For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ Transcript: Michelle:[00:00:00]Welcome to the podcast. Kaely: Thanks so much for having me, Michelle. Michelle: love to have you on love to talk to dietitians, nutritionists, and I would love for you to share your backgrounds and how you got into women's health and fertility. Kaely: Sure. Yeah. So I'm a registered dietitian and I went that path with my career thinking that I would work in sports nutrition. It's what I was passionate about at the time. I kind of grew up as an athlete and as fate would have it, I dealt with a whole bunch of hormone health issues while I was in school, becoming a dietitian and was spending all of my free time outside of school trying to understand more about how the female body worked, how the menstrual cycle worked, the influence of hormones on nutrition and ultimately had a bit of a crisis of faith of what I was learning because it really wasn't helping me optimize my hormone health. Kaely: A big part of my story was actually some pretty significant symptoms related to birth control. So shortly after getting my credentials, came off birth control,[00:01:00]navigated that whole chaotic season of my life of getting back into hormone balance. And when I looked up from that, I realized how a lot of women, friends, family members even, were hungry for nutrition for women's health specifically. Kaely: Because almost no nutrition research is ever done on women. So pivoted away from sports nutrition to women's health a little over a decade ago, and have been running a virtual private practice where my team and I help women all over the country end hormone symptoms, optimize fertility, get pregnant, and really just feel at home in their bodies again. Kaely: And I'm very thankful for that pivot because I can't imagine working in another space. Michelle: Amazing. I love it. I find working with women personally, like so rewarding, especially when it comes to fertility health, it's really amazing because the thing is, you know, what you're talking about is so important food is like at the center of everything, but here's the thing. I think what a lot of people think. Michelle: Is that their symptoms are just[00:02:00]genetics or it's just something that they have to deal with and little is talked about. How our choices and food choices can make a difference. And the thing is part of like having a choice is really knowing what to look for because sometimes you don't really know that you even have a choice. Kaely: Yep, totally. Michelle: And when you talked about, you talked about birth control, that's like abig thing too, because I think that that's another aspect. I mean, that's really beenmy story is that I didn't realize that I had a choice with my regular periods and theonly choice I was given. By professionals that I turned to was the birth control pill for many, many years until, and I always knew intuitively that there must besomething else that's out there that's better because I'm like, there's just no way that this cannot be fixed. Michelle: And I knew thatit was a bandaid because obviously if you take it off, it's right back to what it was. And the doctor told me that. So I remember thinking like, this[00:03:00]just doesn't make sense. However, I didn't have a better option at the time. So a lot of people are in that same position. They really don't think that there's a better option. Michelle: And a couple of things with the birth control pill, number one is that when you're on it for a long time, it can impact. Your body's nutrients and how you process nutrients that can impact your gut. I mean, there's so many things So I want to start with that because I mean there's so much to unpack but like I want to start with that what have you seen like that? Michelle: The pill does to the body What are the things that it depletes? What are the things that you like to address? After a person's been on the birth control pill for so many years. Kaely: Yeah, absolutely. So we don't have a ton of research on this yet. I think it's growing slowly. But what I've seen in practice and even experienced personally was a depletion and a lot of really important nutrients. So at the time that I came off birth control, I was working for a corporate wellness[00:04:00]company that did Micronutrient testing for their corporate clients, which was a little unusual for the time, but really cool. Kaely: And so I'm like, I'm a dietician. I'm following all these food rules that I was running marathons. I thought I was gonna have this like beautiful report come backand it came back and I was deficient in more things than any of the clients that I had been helping. And it was a big aha moment for me to start digging into the influence of birth control on nutrients. Kaely: And what I've continued to see over the last 10 years in practice is a big depletion in our B vitamins. So kind of the whole B complex, a lot of antioxidants are lower too. So we'll see things like vitamin E, vitamin C and selenium be lower post birth control. Magnesium and zinc are commonly lower post birth control. Kaely: And when we think about the nutrients involved in ovulation, in fertility, in being able to carry a pregnancy, I mean, everything that I mentioned is part of that. It's part of energy production and protecting an egg and[00:05:00]follicle health.So those not only can contribute to a lot of the symptoms post birth control, butdefinitely have an impact on, on fertility post birth control too.Michelle:Yeah. No doubt. And what about as far as gut health have you seen witha birth control pill? Kaely: Yep. So we see a change in the microbiome with hormonal birth controluse, and it's a shift away from gram positive to gram negative bacteria, which caninfluence the way that we recycle estrogen in the body. So it can contribute to that state of estrogen dominance. We see an increase in like the gap junction between cells in the gut or a common term for that would be leaky gut. Kaely: So more likelihood to have systemic inflammation, more likelihood to have inappropriate reactions to food post birth control. And then another big area thatgets taxed while on birth control is the liver, gallbladder, and kind of greater biliary tree. You know, the liver is already an[00:06:00]extremely busy organ and it is having to work over time to process and filter the hormones coming in from birth control. Kaely: And those hormones influence the contractility and the composition of the bile, so we see that whole biliary tree impacted by birth control too, which of course influences the way that we're able to get excess hormones out of the body,the way that we're able to absorb fats from our food and our fat soluble vitamins. Kaely: So those would be the main areas. So nutrients. gut and then liver and gallbladder health. Michelle: And what are some of the protocols? And I'm sure similar to my work. Every person is unique, so the protocols are gonna change depending on the person and the condition. There are symptoms as well and like just how their body reacts but typically if somebody's been on the birth control pill for a very long time what are some of the things that you suggest for them to do? Kaely: Yes. So we'll start with food, right? Being in the nutrition space,[00:07:00]we always want to start there. And I always say that nutrient dense whole food diet is non-negotiable when we're talking about coming off of birth control and recovering from However long that season of life was so sticking with food and in the real form as often as we can. Kaely: So good quality proteins, nice pigmented produce, healthy fats alot of just micronutrient rich foods to help accommodate for the deficiencies that came from the pill. So we would start with that, the foundation of the diet. We'd work on supporting the gut. So looking at the types of fibers in our diet, potentially leveraging some probiotics support. Kaely: In my experience, spore based probiotics have been really helpful at trying to adjust the changes that happen post birth control. And then I love to bring insome liver gallbladder support too. So maybe we'll do things like castor oil packsor bitters or bring more bitter foods into the diet to help get that good bile flow going again. Kaely: Those would be my kind of three areas to start with.[00:08:00] Michelle: And, okay, so let's talk about spore based probiotics, because a lot of people listening might not realize the difference between the probiotics. And I, I personally love them as well. I think they're great. And just talk about the differences and why that would be more beneficial over the typical probiotics that you'll find. Kaely: Sure. Yeah. So spore based probiotics are delivered almost identical to how we would find them in nature in the soil, which I think is a cool and important detail here. So they're going to be encapsulated inside that spore, which means they have protection from our digestive process. So they're a lot less likely to get broken down by stomach acid in the stomach and actually make it to their target site, which is the large intestines. Kaely: One of the main complaints of your kind of run of the mill probiotics is that they're either not even viable, you know, at room temperature, or that once they'reingested into a body that is warm and has stomach acid and digestive enzymes, itgets broken down and denatured.[00:09:00]So the spore based probiotics, in my experience, have just been a lot more effective at actually changing the terrain of the large intestines and actually a lot better tolerated to what, which is what I've seen because they're making it to the large intestines and not the small intestines where they might contribute to some symptoms. Michelle: Right. For sure. And for SIBO, that's like the big one because sometimes people with SIBO, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, don't really do well with the type of probiotics we used to use because they already have too much bacteria so that it can also exacerbate it. Michelle: So. Yeah, I personally love spore base because it goes right to the targeted area and I've seen a lot of amazing results with my patients as well. Kaely: Absolutely. Michelle: And then another thing that you brought up, which I thought was really interesting is the bitter taste. So it's interesting because we do take a lot of supplements sometimes and those supplements are, have[00:10:00]certain bitters are supposed to be good for your liver. However, The taste of bitter is also part of the medicine, tasting it. Kaely: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we've got those taste receptors all over our tongue and they're not there for no reason when they interact with bitter compounds in foods. They're actually stimulating our digestive juices and, you know, ancestrally speaking, bitter foods would have been a lot more common. I think the modern human palate has been refined to the most degree of comfort. Kaely: So we've like stripped the bitter stuff out of our diet. We like cut the thingsout of our food that we don't want anymore. And so we're missing out on that interplay of bitter foods and how that actually really supports digestion and evenblood sugar. So bringing in things like fennel seeds, like that's a really nice DIY bitter is just chewing on a couple of fennel seeds as we're preparing our meal, we could sip some diluted apple cider vinegar and water. Kaely: We could have a splash of cranberry juice and some sparkling water, or we could even[00:11:00]just start to bring in more bitter foods into our day to day, like adding some arugula into our salad mix instead of just spinaches or lettuces. Bringing more citrus zest into things instead of just the fruit. So I think that bitter influencing or including more bitter compounds in our diet as a whole is great. Kaely: And then we can also use bitter tinctures to actually interact with those taste receptors right before meals. Michelle: Yeah, it's it's something that for sure we've like really veered from because we do like our certain tastes. And I think about like Indian restaurants, sometimes you'll find that they have a bunch of, well, they're coated in sweetness, but they have fennel seeds and they have a bunch of seeds for people to have. Michelle: Like at the beginning of the restaurant, so you could take a little bit, putit in your hand or take it afterwards and it helps the digestive process, which Ayurveda is based on really using a lot of spices, to help digestion. And I think that's another[00:12:00]thing that we lost more modern times. Kaely: Yep. Absolutely. We've just like restricted and restricted the acceptable range of flavors to very bland things and lost out on that. Michelle: And also, I mean, another really important aspect is just all of the excess ingredients and fillers and You know, something that is really terrible for a microbiome, which is like thickeners that they use in a lot of processed foods. And it can really make a huge impacton your microbiome, which impacts how youabsorb those nutrients. Kaely: Absolutely. We have a lot of fake foods now in addition to losing out on the nutrient density of food. So we're hungrier than ever for nutrients, even though we're getting more and more processed foods. Michelle: And I tend to see a lot of people with lower progesterone symptomssuch as like mid cycle[00:13:00]spotting or like a shorter luteal phase. What are some of the things that you've seen and what have you, how have you approached that?  Kaely: Yeah, we see a ton of low progesterone in our practice. And actually something that I've said for a number of years now is that it feels like we have an epidemic of low progesterone. And that's because we only make progesterone if we ovulate. And we only ovulate if the body feels safe and has the raw materials that it needs to. Kaely: And, I'd argue that, you know, the lifestyle of the modern woman isn't conducive for safety or nutrient availability either. So, a lot of the main symptoms that we see, like the ones you mentioned, you know, a short luteal phase symptomatic periods, and that's because progesterone helps balance out the effects of estrogen. Kaely: So, without enough of it, we tend to have heavier, more painful, clottier periods. We see fertility issues because progesterone is necessary to carry a[00:14:00]pregnancy, so whether it's not conceiving at all or early miscarriages we see a lot of sleep and digestive symptoms in the luteal phase with lower progesterone. Kaely: And then because there's such a close relationship between progesterone and the thyroid, we see a lot of hypothyroidism as well with low progesterone. Michelle: And also people can in fact, ovulate, but still have low progesterone. Kaely: Absolutely. Yep. And it's all in relation to how much estrogen, right? So we could have true low progesterone or just low progesterone relative to the amount of estrogen at that time. Michelle: So if it's like estrogen dominance Kaely: Right. Michelle: And did you have you ever noticed, see, this is actually something interesting. I had a guest on talking about the menstrual cycle and she talked about how the corpus luteum, which means yellow bodyis yellow because of the, betacarotene..[00:15:00]And so she said that sometimes she will give like a therapeutic dose of beta carotene. Michelle: And I started using it in my practice and I have seen impacts. Now I wouldn't use it for everybody. I also kind of look at it as sort of a more young You know, yin and yang, it's more of like a heating, usually progesterone and kind of the second half of the menstrual cycle is more of a yang phase, which is like amore warm energetic phase of the cycle.Michelle:But if you look at also foods, and I've learned this with Ayurveda, someof the warming foods have warmer colors, which is kind of interesting in its ownbut what are your thoughts on that and have you worked with that in your practice?Kaely:Yeah. Yeah. I, I definitely agree. And I think, you know, vitamin A or betacarotene is one piece of that puzzle, but there's so the corpus luteum is soantioxidant rich or an antioxidant meeting because of the[00:16:00]mitochondrialdemand on that area. So we see a lot of benefit from vitamin a, we see vitamin E being really helpful and then some antioxidants like selenium can be really helpful for that too. Kaely: But yeah, I think if we look at warm foods highly pigmented foods, they tend to be really rich in those nutrients that we're targeting. So I think it makes a lot of sense from like an Ayurvedic perspective too. Michelle: Yeah, and I just think about egg health. I mean, cause ultimately, you know, egg health, it's like the follicle itself. And then that impacts, you know, if you have good healthy eggs, that's going to impact the corpus luteum. I mean, it's like the follicle with the egg, but it's all one part, it's a whole. And so when you're addressing all of those things, it's going to impact. Michelle: All of the different aspects, really, of the menstrual cycle. So as far as fertility goes, what are some of the common symptoms that you[00:17:00]see? The, like the most common symptoms that you'll see with the people that come into your practice. Kaely: Yeah, so for most of our clients that are seeing us for fertility, we've got probably about half of them are on the like proactive side of things they want to start trying to conceive soon, or maybe they've just recently started and realize they wanted to do some like proactive conception planning and make sure that their nutrients Kaely: And then the other half have been trying to conceive for some time, so maybe they have had no successful pregnancies or maybe they've had recurrent miscarriage. We also serve clients that have been through assisted reproductive technologies without success and want to explore things in the functional nutrition space.  Kaely: So we kind of see the whole gamut between, you know, just preparing for that season of life and then those that have been in the trenches[00:18:00]of infertility and want to explore some other options. Michelle: In our pre talk, you were talking about the downfalls of nutrition. What are some of the things that you see in general, like in society? That are impacting people's ability to truly, like, process and then get stronger from within. Kaely: Yeah, I, this is one of the things that I get most soap boxy about because I just personally really relate to it having gone to conventional schooling for nutrition and just seeing firsthand really what's being taught there and, and see how it didn't play out favorably for my own hormones. But if we think about, you know, the women in childbearing years now grew up in like the eighties, nineties. Kaely: 2000s. And there was a new diet being marketed to women, like every other day, something completely different each time we went through a season of like really low fat being the main focus, low fat, low calorie. Then we went through really low carb being the focus and cutting out, you know, even[00:19:00]things like fruits and some starchier vegetables. Kaely: We've just been through a lot of extremes all the while having the message that thinnest is best. For women. So when we take it back to the foundation of fertility, like we've talked about already, this is safety in the body and abundant energy. You know, we can't support a new life. We can't even support the hormone production and ovulation without those things. Kaely: So if we're consistently under eating either from just a caloric perspective or cutting out large amounts of macronutrients, whether it be carbs, proteins, or fats, you know, we can't expect fertility to happen. Unhinged at that point or uninhibited at that point, because we lack safety and nutrient availability. Kaely: And then even just maintaining really unrealistic goals for body composition for women can be a big hindrance for fertility as well. You know, stored body fat is. safety net. So if we have really, really low body fat as females, which would[00:20:00]be the recommendation on your average grocery store tabloid we're going to run into some fertility issues too. Kaely: So I just think between the diet culture and body image messaging that most women grew up with paired with the fact that almost no research in the nutrition space is done on women because we have the variables of hormones that make a laboratory setting, really difficult. We have, you know, half the population that is struggling to figure out how to eat in order to support their own physiology and that confusion and kind of applying what we're seeing other people doing or applying what men are doing has led to a lot of hormone infertility issues. Michelle: No doubt. I see that with intermittent fasting, too, because it was mostly tested on men. And nobody really checked on women and what I've heard is that if you were to do that, because there are some benefits of fasting to not do it all the time, maybe to do a periodically to kind of like reset the system. Michelle: But another thing too, is that I[00:21:00]see, you know, besides sometimes people being really underweight and not having the energy stores, but. Sometimes people have the energy stores, they become overweight, but they're not, it's not because they're eating a lot. It's just their body's not able to process that energy. Michelle: And perhaps they're not getting the nutrients they need to get the energy to break down the energy, if that makes sense. Kaely: Right. Absolutely. Yep. Yeah. That's that whole, you know, predicament of the modern human eating more food than ever, but being nutrient starved. You know, we're, we have access 24 seven access for the most part to really calorie dense foods, but they're not nutrient dense and we need both in order for that system to work well. Michelle: Yeah. Because if you don't have both, then you're not able to even use the energy that you do have. It just doesn't, it doesn't process. It doesn't translate. Kaely: Yep. And something that you mentioned with the intermittent fasting and just, you know, if we want to leverage the[00:22:00]benefits of fasting in women, you know, we do it in a, in a different way than we would with men. We would do things, you know, for shorter duration or for specific seasons. And I think that hits on a really big point for nutrition for women's health. Kaely: And that's having to acknowledge that we're cyclical beings. And that it's okay that we need to change our approach to food, to exercise, to the way we're living our lives based on what's going on in our cycle. And I know this is something that you speak on often. It's one of my favorite things as well. Kaely: You know, our culture thinks that we should feel the exact same way andshow up the exact same way every single day. But if you're a cycling female, I mean, you're going through four different seasons every single month and those have different demands. Michelle: Absolutely. And so what have you seen? I know how I see it from kind of a little bit more of a Chinese medicine perspective, but I'd love to hear your takeon like the different seasons and because I just love this topic. It's so much fun. Kaely: I love it too. And I think it's so liberating.[00:23:00]Yeah, it is. I remember feeling like so much relief when I realized that it's actually really normal that my motivation is not the same every single day. I remember feeling like I should show up as the same version of me all the time as a, as a business owner. Kaely: And even in, you know, my relationships and that's not the case. So what we see in our clients or just a general overview of this, you know, the, the menstruation or period phase being winter leading into spring, which is the follicular phase and the building up of estrogen and then ovulation being summer,kind of like peak. Kaely: And then coming into fall in the luteal phase and then back into winter and the hormone environment of each of those seasons influences the way that we metabolize our food and even the way that we keep blood sugar stable. So what we find to be most supportive from like a purely nutritional standpoint. Kaely: Is that we actually do better with a little bit more carbohydrate in that follicular phase. So kind of[00:24:00]spring season leading into summer because estrogen keeps us insulin sensitive so we can handle more carbohydrates more efficiently. And that can support that increased like external energy output that comes with the spring and summer seasons or follicular inovulation. Kaely: And then once we move into the fall season, so we start to have progesterone produced after ovulation, and progesterone actually helps us metabolize fats a little bit better, and then it stimulates our thyroid. So our metabolic rate and actually internal heat is highest in that second half of the cycle, but we're not quite as sensitive to insulin anymore. Kaely: So we finda little bit less carbohydrate in that season, a little bit more fats for the satiety. And then we even find reducing the intensity and even volume of exercise in that second half being really important too, because our external energy output tends to be lower in the fall and coming into winter. Kaely: And[00:25:00]then during the actual period, we see this so often in our clients, and I definitely live this personally, if we don't allow for a true winter. Like a true couple days of actually just resting and not putting our foot on the gas pedal and not forcing workouts, even if we don't feel well. If we skip that wintering, we see that impact the energy and output of the next cycle. Kaely: So if we can really honor the winter, slow down, take care of ourselves,listen to ourselves, we feel so much better throughout the subsequent cycle. Michelle: I just love that you just said that. It's so true and I, when I finally got to the point in my life where I honored it. For myself because I was I would work out throughout my period and and now I get to this place where I actually honor it and I don't and I give myself a couple of days where I'm just like allowing myself to rest and once you accept it because it's always habit. Michelle: You know, you get[00:26:00]into habits and you almost have to change your your definition of what things are, because in your mind, it's like, I have to do things in order to be productive and that's my reality. And then when you start to realize, I can also listen to what that reality could be and listen to my body and what my body's telling me. Michelle: And when you start to really honor that, it's a game changer. I mean, I'll say that it's a game changer. Kaely: Yeah. Oh yeah, I totally agree, and when I finally started to honor thatmyself, it was like a huge lightbulb moment, and it just changed things for me, you know, personally and professionally, if I could actually fill my cup during thatwinter, things just played out so much better. Michelle: Yeah. And I see it also just with how we eat, you know, and just like eating past our feeling full or not eating enough and just kind of holding out because we want to be thin and, you know, we, you discussed that before, but[00:27:00]it's just not listening to our body. Our body is so intelligent. Also, the mindfulness of eating is a big one.  Michelle: It's just, if you chew your food more, just that alone can make such a difference on how you're able to process it and getting all those enzymes from your saliva. It's like the simple things. We have teeth. For a reason, Kaely: Hmm. Yeah. And like eating away from some kind of other distraction, like the TV screen or your computer for work or scrolling emails or social media on your phone, it is, it's always the simple stuff. And I think at the end of the day, if we really want to feel amazing as women and support fertility, it's just getting back in touch with the amazing innate wisdom that the body has. Kaely: And knowing that the entire, like, diet and like, body image culture isdesigned on you being disconnected from that. So, it's literally an act of rebellionto do it differently, and it's it's really how things will change[00:28:00]in the women's health space. Michelle: It's the best kind of rebellion you can get into. And Kaely: Yes. Michelle: I'll tell you this, like another thing that is that the spleen and stomachthey, they have a very important role. I mean, they, they are the role for our digestive system in our body from a TCM traditional Chinese medicine perspective. Michelle: And the spleen, one of the functions of it, or it's connected to a lot ofthinking. So when we think too much, and it's funny, cause when I was. studying this, the guy, our first teacher when we first started said, your spleen is going to get crazy, you know, and your digestive system is going to get impacted by all the memory and all of the studying that you have to do in this course. Michelle: So just keep that in mind. You might need to start like working on it,taking extra herbs tosupport that. And. What you said was so important because when you're eating and you're watching TV or your mind's going somewhere else, then you're taking that energy, that mental energy[00:29:00]that could go towards your digestion somewhere else. Michelle: So it's interesting that we say that, but it's even separate from traditional Chinese medicine. People say that or realize that, but this is a thing in Chinesemedicine. It really is like your mental energy gets taken away from your digestive system. And if your digestive systems off, it will impact your, your gut microbiome impacts. Michelle: We know this through science, your brain activity and how you canthink and function. So I find it fascinating when. Modern daytimes, like the thingsthat we discover really do correlate and have a connection with what traditional Chinese medicine has been talking about for so many years. And Ayurvedic medicine as well. Michelle: Pretty cool.Kaely:Yeah, that's really cool. Thank you for sharing that. I also, I'm just fascinated when you see the same themes in really different schools of thought. So that's really cool. Michelle: Yeah. But it comes down to really listening to our[00:30:00]body because our bodies are so intelligent. I mean, it's before we were able to rely on any other person to tell us. You know, animals don't have that. They don't go to doctors if they're out in the wild, you know, they have, they have their instinct because their bodies have to tell you, like, it's a survival thing. Michelle: Your body has to tell you, you have to have that communication. However, our minds can overpower a lot, like our thinking brain can overpower alot of that. So coming back to yourself and your senses and your connection with your intuition. And your own body awareness to let you know, I think even if you have that down, you can even figure out what you're sensitive to, like what kind of foods agree with you, don't and most people do, they don't just don't realize it or they don't listen. Kaely: Yeah, completely agree with that. And it's something that we often work on kind of right in the beginning of serving a client is trying to get more in touch withthat[00:31:00]intuition and build that autonomy muscle, because it really does take some practice and agood Question that we like to ask, and if you're listening and curious where you fall on this, it's taking inventory of the, like, health decisions you make, and asking yourself how many of those decisions are coming from someone else's recommendation, or a list, or an idea of what you should do. Kaely: And I know when I was kind of early on in my hormone health journey myself, I was thinking like, wow, I'm eating these foods that I actually don't feel great when I eat, but I'm eating them because someone else decided that they were healthy. Or I'm limiting my intake to X. Michelle:my God. Yes. Kaely: Yeah, you know, we're doing, we're outsourcing all of those decisions andignoring the fact that we actually don't feel well, or we actually aren't seeing theoutcomes that we want to see, but we're like, somebody else said this was healthyand what I should do, so I'm gonna do it. Kaely: So I would just spend some time evaluating that. How many of thosedecisions come from someone outside of you, and are they in complete opposition with[00:32:00]how you're feeling, and where can we start to honor that? Because Like you said, you know, your body knows. It's so smart. It's so wise. And it has really great ways of communicating its needs. Kaely: We've just got to get back into the practice of listening to that.Michelle:Yeah. No doubt. I mean, even spinach. I mean, there's certain things thatare great for some people, but for other people, they just don't do well with it. And they can, you know, totally ignore that cause they're like, no, but that's supposed to be really good for you. It's your vegetables. It really, it could be the best thing ever for person A and for person B it's like the worst thing ever. Michelle: So it really depends on your, how your body's responsive to that specific food. Even bone broth, which I love, there are certain people that tend to have higher histamines when they take it. So it impacts them in a really adverse way. So it, it truly, truly depends because for some people, for many people, it's like liquidgold. Michelle: I call it, it's really great for the[00:33:00]body. It has amino acids. It's really building and has good fats, healthy fats and great for your with collagen for your gut. But for some people, they just don't dowell with it. Kaely: Yeah, we are all very unique in that sense and that's where kind of blanketed one size fits all nutrition gets us in a bad way because it plays out so different from person to person. Michelle: Yeah, for sure. So well, this is great information. I really enjoy talking to you. I think nutrition is so key. It's really, really important for anybody who's trying to conceive. And for people who want to find you or would like to work with you, how can people find you? Kaely: Yeah, so you can find me. I mostly on Instagram. So my handle is Kaley RD, so K-A-E-L-Y-R-D, and my website is the same. So you'll find information on our general philosophy and ways to work with us there. And then I believe I sent you[00:34:00]guys a link if I didn't already I will right after this call Michelle, but We've got a free six part email series on Pregnancy prep process and it outlines kind of key nutrients to be thinking about in that season some good books the typeof testing that would be helpful to do in the 6 to 12 months before conception time frame and They're just things that we've gathered over the years that can really helpPrepare someone mind body spirit for the conception journey and just a real proactive approach to that. Kaely: That's totally free Michelle: Awesome. Well, I appreciate that. Thank you so much for bringing thatto our audience. And I loved having this conversation, Kaylee. It's definitely a passion of mine and really is just so important. So thank you so much for coming on today. Kaely: Thank you so much for having me. This was a blast.

In the studio today are Joan Phillips, Assistant Commissioner at the Massachusetts Rehabilitation Commission, and Michelle Banks, DIF Strategic Director for MRC.   Find out how MRC is turning VR on its head. What would they do differently in the first year, and what results would they see after year 2? Learn about the success of the job certification program, and how they are meeting the "NextGen-ers" where they are at.   Hear how  Joan and Michelle encourage others to take on a DIF Grant to help bring more innovation and creative ideas to VR.   Learn more about the NextGen Initiative.   Listen Here   Full Transcript:   {Music}   Joan: If you are committed to this field, please apply for a DIF grant. Bring your ideas forward so we can infuse the future of VR with new energy and achieve more outcomes for individuals with disabilities who come to us, really depending on us, to help them make life changing decisions.   Michelle: We're moving more and more young adults into trainings. We've developed training partnerships in technology, in health care. We're trying to forge our way into biotech.   Joan: I'm always challenging staff. What else? How else?   Intro Voice: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well, welcome to the Manager Minute. Joining me in the studio today are Joan Phillips, assistant commissioner at the Massachusetts Rehabilitation Commission, and Michelle Banks, DIF strategic director for MRC. So, Joan, how are things going at MRC?   Joan: Things are going really well. We are extremely busy working hard to ensure that the individuals who come to us seeking employment have every opportunity to get the training and to be upskilled and to gain employment. We are very, very busy but very happy.   Carol: Well, and of course, under Tony, she keeps you very busy because Tony's got a lot of great ideas. I love that.   Joan: She's got a lot of energy, more than all of us, that's for sure.   Carol: How about you, Michelle? How are things going for you?   Michelle: Good, busy is the word. Our project is well underway. Got a lot of participants. We've got a lot of interested folks and a lot of optimism for what we're about to achieve here. So it's going well.   Carol: I'm super excited to dig into this because I know our listeners have been really excited. And so this is the third podcast in a series focused on the Disability Innovation Fund career advancement projects. And I want to just do a little quick recap for our listeners about this particular round of the Disability Innovation Fund grants. So grant activities are geared to support innovative activities aimed at improving the outcomes of individuals with disabilities. And the Career Advancement Initiative model demonstrations funded back in 2021 were intended to identify and demonstrate practices that are supported by evidence to assist VR eligible individuals with disabilities, including previously served VR participants in employment who reenter the program to do the following. And it was to advance in high demand, high quality careers like science, technology, engineering, and math or those STEM careers, to enter career pathways in industry driven sectors through pre apprenticeships, registered apprenticeships and industry recognized apprenticeship programs to improve and maximize the competitive integrated outcomes, economic self-sufficiency, independence and inclusion in society and reduce reliance on public benefits like SSI, SSDI and or Temporary Assistance for Needy Families and any state or local benefits. Also, when we think back, Congress made career pathways a necessary, if not foundational, part of WIOA's workforce reforms and states, for example, are required to include career pathways and workforce development systems. They're required to have them in their local plans that they have. So it's been really fun because each of the other agencies that we featured to date has taken a really uniquely Different approach, and I'm excited to unpack what's happening with you all. So, Joan, I'm going to start with you. Tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you got into VR.   Joan: I actually have a master's degree in rehabilitation, but spent a significant amount of my career working in the private sector. I feel that those experiences really informed my positions that I've held at MRC. I came in as a director of one of our local offices, and four years later I was promoted to Assistant Commissioner. So that's a little glimpse into my journey. I have significant experience in Workforce Development, disability determination to determine eligibility for disability benefits, working with young adults with disabilities, individuals with severe physical disabilities. And I'm very fortunate to be in this career.   Carol: Well, it's always fun to see how people make their way to VR. We all get here some way. It can be a long and winding road sometimes, or a very direct path in. So Michelle, how about you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?   Michelle: Sure, mine might reflect a long, winding part when it comes to Vocational Rehabilitation, but I've spent my career working with young adults. I started in the health care sector and then moved to juvenile justice. And then spent about 20 years in public child welfare, and I was the director of Adolescent and Young Adult Services for the Massachusetts Department of Children and Families, where I was helping the agency pursue transition related outcomes, one of them being employment with a group of young adults who were going to leave the public child welfare system without returning home or being adopted. So they had their lives, were calling for an enormous amount of independence, saw a lot of inequity when it came to economic stability, and could see a lot of pathways in things that could be done differently. I had worked with MRC a bit in that role and saw what they were doing, and when I realized that they got this funding to help young adults in particular, really try to have gratifying career pathways that were going to help them achieve economic stability in ways that many of their peers have the opportunity to do. I jumped right on it. So that's how I landed with MRC and have been excited to be working in this role ever since.   Carol: Very cool. So you're well positioned for the role you're in now. That is great. So, Joan, can you paint us a picture of MRC? Like how many staff do you have? How many people do you serve? A little bit more about what it's like in Massachusetts.   Joan: Yeah. So the Massachusetts Rehabilitation Commission provides services that break down barriers and empower people with disabilities to live life on their own terms. Our programs focus on career services, home and community life, and disability determination for federal benefit programs. We like to say that we're change agents and community builders, and we put the people we serve at the heart of everything we do. I'm the Assistant Commissioner of the Vocational Rehabilitation Division. That division serves over 15,000 individuals annually. We have over 300 staff, which includes directors of our local offices, regional managers, statewide managers, vocational rehabilitation counselors, placement and employment specialists, counselors for the deaf and hard of hearing, various clerical positions, supervisors. And hopefully I haven't missed anyone. The NextGen initiative, which you'll hear about, has some broad and some interesting staffing positions that we hope will inform VR moving forward in the future, and you'll hear more about that later.   Carol: So just a side note, I wondered, how are you guys faring kind of coming out of the pandemic? Are you seeing an upswing in the number of people that you're serving?   Joan: Absolutely. The numbers are increasing in terms of the numbers being served and also the numbers of individuals who are getting employment. We had a downswing during the pandemic, but now it's moving in the right direction and we're really excited to see that.   Carol: Good, that's good to hear. Been kind of hearing that trend across the country and I'm super happy about that. Well, I know your commissioner, Tony Wolf. I think she's amazing. She's done a lot of very cool things. She comes with a whole interesting background as well. And I know she's been super supportive and I feel like is always on the cutting edge of improving services. Talk about the support you've received from Tony and kind of throughout your agency for this project.   Joan: Her vision is really to modernize our organization, to modernize the Voc rehab divisions, to be relevant to this generation and future generations of individuals with disabilities. So we're all aligning ourselves. I said earlier, she's got much more energy than all of us combined. So we're trying to keep up with her and her ideas and moving forward.   Carol: Very cool. So, Michelle, big picture. Let's break down the grant. What do you propose to do with this grant? And what are you hoping to accomplish?   Michelle: So in this grant cycle we are looking to get 1000 NextGen-ers. So young adults 18 to 30 years old with disabilities into career pathways that are STEM related. We're going to do that in a few different ways, but our goal is to really open their minds to see how they can be successful in STEM careers, help them develop the tools that they're going to need to make the right career decision for them, understand how they can be successful and happy, and really achieve that economic stability that you were talking about and I was talking about earlier. It's an Innovation grant. So we're doing things differently than they've been done in the past. One of the things that we're doing is we have a learning experience that we provide to all of our NextGen-ers, and it's called Self CARES. Self CARES is an acronym, stands for Self-capacity self-advocacy, self-realization and Self Sufficiency. So it's really understanding. Ending who you are as a worker, what you want out of that, what your strengths and limitations are, what you're going to need to advocate for yourself once you become someone's employee and how you can work independently. And in NextGen, we don't see independence as being alone. We see it as accessing, first of all, having access to services, being able to access them, and harnessing the things that are available in your life to help you be successful at work. So that's our learning experience, Self CARES. And we also have these really creatively built teams looking at success in other sectors and within vocational rehabilitation itself that we've developed these roles within these teams. They include a peer mentor for every NextGener. The moment that they walk into our doors, we actually walk through their doors because we're community based, which is another innovative component. We have family partners, so the families of all of our NextGen-ers have a partner available to them on our team to ensure that their voice is NextGen-ers life and how they can contribute to a successful career. We also have employment success specialists, we have career counselors. We have specialty counselors for our NextGen-ers with sensory disabilities. We have a specialty counselor for blind low vision, NextGen-ers, and deaf hard of hearing NextGen-ers. And we have regional supervisors because we are based in these communities. We have three communities in the Commonwealth that we're serving right now as part of the grant. What's really different is these teams hold the NextGen-ers together, so it's not a 1 to 1 relationship. For example, with a counselor we're testing out, what is it like when you have these multi disciplines in they're all available to you. And we know that young adults like choice. So they choose who in this team is their team lead who they want to talk to, who they're going to return the text from. You know, who can get them where they want to be. But the rest of the team doesn't go away. They stay right there at the table to bring what they're disciplined forward and help move the young adult into work. Those are the main components of our program. I always look to Joan for a moment because she can fill in what I may have forgotten.   Joan: So NextGen is about quick wins. You know, we really want to help the young adults focus on those certificate programs and apprenticeships that are short term. They're not. We're not talking about putting people into a degree program, but a certificate program where there is a demand in the market sector for those skills and that they have a high probability of obtaining employment, making higher wages.   Carol: I love that you're doing that, that focus on, you know, everybody always was thinking, you have to have this four year degree or you got to get your master's, you got to get your doctorate. You know, all that. That is not for everyone. And there are so many good careers out there where you just need this little bit, like this certificate or you do the apprenticeship. Lots of people learn better, hands on. I remember my son, one of his friends in high school is an apprentice to be a plumber. I'm like, Chase, he's going to make more money than everybody because everybody needs plumbers. And that was his thing. He doesn't want to go to school and do the book learning. He learns so much better via hands on. So I like that approach because everybody doesn't want to go to college.   Joan: Yeah, you know what's really interesting is that right now, because of employers being unable to fill so many positions, everybody is looking at their entrance requirements to say, do we really need somebody with a degree? Is this something that somebody could learn on the job? Is this something if they got a certificate in this particular area, would that be sufficient? So I think we're on the cutting edge. We're on the cutting edge of preparing young adults to meet the demands of the labor market. And we're really excited about this. The good news is that if somebody completes a certificate program, gets a job and decides they want a degree, many employers are paying for those degrees. So the young person doesn't have these huge debts that they need to pay back. So that's one of the exciting things about NextGen. And that's one of the things that we inform the participants about that you can get a degree later if you decide that that's a path that you want to take.   Carol: Well, your timing couldn't be more perfect. I mean, I really feel like the pandemic sort of set all this up where people kind of flipped employment on its ear, and people are starting to see that not everybody needs to go to college, and there's lots of different ways to achieve that kind of ultimate career goal that you want to get to. There's a lot of ways to get there. So I think your timing is spot on. So let's talk about the first year. What kind of struggles did you guys encounter? Because I've heard it from the other DIF grantees. They're like, you know, that first year we had some problems, but what kind of struggles did you encounter in year one and what would you have done differently?   Michelle: I think that we used the analogy building the plane as you're flying it a lot. We are very optimistic about reaching our goals. Five years is a very short time to pursue some of these things. So Joan was the crafter of the implementation strategy really, and implementing, you know, building the program, opening the program, staffing the program, delivering the service at the same time is a very rapid pace. So I think that the biggest challenge would be the pace. At the same time, we're asking our NextGen-ers to work really hard in a short period of time to get a big outcome. So we've got to be doing the same thing.   Joan: You know, it's really funny when you write something on paper. It looks so beautiful and. And somewhat easy you know. But then reality hits that you have to, you know, this is a program that's serving people and you need to be strategic around implementation. And how are you going to deliver what it is that you've promised your funders that you're going to deliver? You know, if there was one thing that I could, we spent a lot of time drafting job descriptions, hiring staff, training staff, setting up infrastructure. If there was one thing that I could change as we rolled into year two and began to do outreach and recruitment, I looked back and said, I wish we had done outreach and recruitment in the first year, with a timeline set as to when the program would start. You know, took us a while to get the momentum going for recruitment. We're actually exceeding recruitment goals right now, but it was very stressful in the beginning thinking we weren't going to meet that number.   Carol: So that's a really good tip because I know folks have said the first year is sort of a drag because of the government processes. You have to write your position description and get it approved, and then you've got to post and then you're going to hire. And so you're waiting, waiting, waiting to kind of get going with the program. And then year two, It's like, holy cow, pedal to the metal really quickly, where I love that idea of ramping up and making people aware of what's going on as you're getting these things done. So it isn't quite that just huge forcefulness that needs to happen right away in year two. That makes really good sense. So since you're saying your outreach is going really well, I was going to ask you, I know you guys have a really I call it a groovy way of talking, so I may date myself, but I love how you guys talk about this program because it's exciting. You know, I love your NextGen-ers. I like when you were talking about employee success specialists. Like, I want to be one of those, you know, that kind of cool stuff that you're doing. So how are you connecting with your potential customers? And I'm going to shoot that to you, Michelle.   Michelle: Yeah, we have had a really dynamic and exciting outreach and marketing campaign. I have to talk first about our digital and print collateral, because when we were at CSAVR last year, it just flew off the shelf. They were so impressed with it. They wanted it to take it back to their state and see how they could replicate it. Marketing to young adults. Young adults get marketed to a lot, right? They are exposed to things that new ideas and people that want their presence, their money, their time. So you have a lot of competition out there, and you have to think about what's going to get their attention. So we had a digital and print media campaign in multiple languages. We want to ensure that we are serving young adults that have been under engaged in the past, and that includes specific racial and ethnic demographics. So we needed to make sure that the imagery on this collateral looked like them, look like the people we wanted to come into our program with. So diverse representation, they're young adults. Some had visual disabilities in the print collateral. They were living their lives, you know, so that folks could see that and really see themselves represented. And then also in their languages as well. We have multiple languages, and then everything from like the colors that we use to the background we used. We lifted that from other media campaigns that were for young adults specifically that we knew were successful. So real intentionality in a lot of time was put into that and a great partnership with our coms team. They were there before I got to the table and were so excited to do this work, and it really came through and what they were able to produce. We also went to social media. We launched social media campaigns. On Tik Tok reached close to 1500 views on that. We went to Facebook and Instagram, but we knew our demographic was really on Instagram and TikTok, so that was our area of focus. We did dynamic reels for them, and then we also just did what you would call like a flat still photograph, you know, using our digital media. So we're able to reach a lot of people that way. Then we went out every time we hired somebody and they were trained on the program, we put them out into the community to go find young adults, families and the systems that serve them. So we established partnerships with health and human service sister agencies serving our demographic as well as high schools were a great partner for us. We used some contracted services so that we could harness other relationships that were in the community. Cultural brokers, any type of neighborhood event, community event we were out at trying to we knew that the power wasn't speaking directly to young adults and directly to families, so that was always our focus. And multilingual capacity is really important there as well.   Carol: Yeah, I remember your materials flying off the table. People were like, holy cow, it is, it's like you've brought this whole fresh perspective into VR.   Michelle: Just one more thing. If anybody's listening that was of a huge assistance to us was a QR code on our print material. I just wanted to share that our potential NextGen-ers or their families could scan the QR code came directly to our landing page in a one page inquiry sheet.   Carol: You would now be proud of me because I saw that I was like, so we now have QR codes we're using on everything. So we do if we're doing evaluations, we go anywhere. We use a QR code instead of like, we're sending you this paper evaluation. We're just like we do the QR code. In fact, at our table coming up at the conference, I have QR codes that folks can just scan to get to our resources instead of like, dragging a bunch of paper along. So you're starting a revolution, you guys. It's awesome, I love it. So what kind of results are you seeing now that year two is completed? I think Michelle go to you first.   Michelle: We're moving more and more young adults into trainings. We've developed training partnerships in technology, in health care. We're trying to forge our way into biotech. So our NextGen-ers are coming in at the younger side around 22. So a lot of them do not have significant work history and have never heard of these fields before. They didn't get a lot of exposure to that in their high school experience. So we're doing a lot of career exploration and helping them into these trainings. We're doing some cohort trainings with some partners. So these are just NextGen-ers that we're able to hold together, serve as a group, give them peer support, give them support outside of the training or academics that are happening for them. And we're getting a lot of feedback on how to do that effectively with them. They don't like to meet in the morning. They don't want to meet after dinner. You've lost them permanently. But and they like individualized support. So as they're in these trainings, it's great and very helpful to them to meet as groups and peers. But they also want to be able to privately ask a question if they're struggling with any material, or maybe not quite sure this is a good fit for them. So needing to be really available to really understand what these trainings are, what is being asked of them, and then being able to provide that support. And if we can't provide it, connecting with the training provider to help them understand what the student experience is as well. And we've got some young adults moving into work as well. We again needed to open their minds to STEM careers. And sometimes when you've had no career or no job, you need to start somewhere. So we are looking a lot at some folks that are heading to work in. Our work is nowhere near done, right? They're getting their first job and they're learning what they like and what they don't like there. But the idea is to move more towards a career focused pathway.   Carol: Yeah. Very cool. That's the thing about demonstration projects you learn along the way, which I love, like you're learning little nuances, especially when you're working with that age group. Like, yeah, like after dinner you can and not too early in the morning. You're like all those different pieces, the ways you think you have it set up, and then you go, well, that didn't work so well. We're going to pivot. Joan, did you have some thoughts on that too?   Joan: Yeah, I was just going to say one exciting thing for me is employers engaging with us differently. For example, we have Red River who really stepped up and said we would love to offer an IT training for some of your participants who are interested in that field and their staff delivering the training for these young adults. And the hope is that, you know, many of them will get employment with Red River and other organizations. They brought Cisco and others to the table. And, you know, the opportunities. You know, if these individuals succeed in this area, it's wide. It's wide, wide open. Employer engagement. Also involves coming to talk to the young adults about different jobs in STEM, what it's like to work for their organizations, and etcetera. So it's beautiful to see the employers engaging at that level and who else to give relevant information but the employers.   Carol: Yeah, that's brilliant.   Joan: I walked into one of our conference rooms the other day, and there were 20 young people just focused on taking computers apart, and they didn't even notice me walking in the room. They were so engaged in the process. It was just, just beautiful. Just beautiful.   Carol: I think that's super smart, you know, because we can do it. You sit there and you go, well, you've got your counselors and they're talking about different jobs, but nothing better than people in that field. That particular company. And those companies are smart for hooking up with you guys too, because they have such a need for staff. And so that partnership, like the partnerships you're developing all the way through this, that's amazing. It's very cool. Joan, now I know you talk to me too, about your philosophy when it comes to VR. Can you share that with our listeners? You have some very cool perspective, and I know I can't, I can't say it like you say it.   Joan: Yeah, I've been in the field for a really, really long time, and my greatest desire is to see individuals with disabilities in high level, higher paying jobs. It's time for us to move out of retail flowers and filth. And I can't remember the other half, but, you know,   Carole: Food.   Joan:  and food services. Yes. It's time for us to move there. And I'm extremely excited to see where these NextGen-ers end up as we focus them on potentially jobs and careers that they've never heard of. You know, it's about exposing them to that. I'm always challenging staff. What else? How else? When I came to Mass Rehab, I was very surprised that our organization had been around for about 50 years and that the business community didn't know about us. I'm saying to myself, how are we getting people to work? And the types of jobs that people were getting really demonstrated that we were not connected to the business community. So it was my vision to drive that connection, to hire staff specifically focused on building relationships with the business community, nurturing those relationships, bringing information back to the counselors who are giving the advice around careers, and really developing a feeder system by having individuals who are managing business accounts, who speak their language, you know, who understand their culture and can help us to become much more innovative in preparing the individuals we serve and building the talent pipeline for the employers.   Carol: Good on you. I love that you speak to my heart. I know back when I was at State Services for the Blind in Minnesota and we were trying to expose our Pre-ETS students, that's why we started podcasts. Back then. We wanted to expose students to other kinds of work out there, because a lot of times our young folks who were blind or visually impaired, they just thought, I'm going to be a Walmart greeter. I can't do anything else. And it's like they had no idea I would cry, literally when we would do these student interviews and when people would kind of sell themselves short. It really hit my heart. And so the world is wide open. There's so many awesome opportunities that our folks can fill, you know, and you champion that I think is just brilliant.   Joan: Yeah, I mean, young adults with disabilities need to know that individuals with disabilities are CEOs. They are CFOs. They are IT professionals. You know, they're in the medical field. They're doctors, nurses, firemen. I mean, they're in every business sector. And I really believe that it is our job as VR professionals to expose those individuals to those careers and to really help them to think about their abilities. And, you know, what they have to bring to the table and how can we help them? Our job is to help them make informed decisions. Right? So we need to be informed about the labor market so that the information that we're transferring to these young adults is relevant to the current labor market. I think the NextGeneration of individuals with disabilities are not going to put up with working in a supermarket, bagging groceries. They want to be doing things that give them a great salary and offer them career ladder opportunities. And we're starting with NextGen.   Carol: They're going to be running that grocery store. They're not just bagging the groceries.   Joan: There you go.   Carol: They're going to own it. They're going to own that store. I love that. So, Joan, I know you also talked about the support you've had from RSA. Can you describe that for the listeners with this grant that there's been just really great support?   Joan: Doug Ziou has been an incredible supporter and a great cheerleader of MRC. I mean, everything we bring to the table, he's just. Yes. Do it. Yes. Do it. Very, very supportive, asking great questions, challenging us in ways that we need to be challenged but extremely, extremely supportive. And we're truly grateful that we have Doug on our side.   Carol: Yeah, I've heard that with all the project officers, I mean, like, they are super excited and really invested in these grants. It's almost like it's their babies or something. And they just love this so much. I'm really glad to hear that. Michelle, did you have anything you wanted to add to that?   Michelle: No, I was nodding. I realized this is a podcast, but I was just nodding furiously as Joan was talking. Working with Doug has just been such a pleasure, and you never get off a call with him without just feeling completely pumped about what you're about to go do and see all the possibility in it, because, you know, he does.   Carol: Yeah, I like that. They really cheerlead for that. So for those listeners that would like to apply for a DIF grant but have been afraid to do so, what advice would you give to others? Michelle. I'm going to hit you up with that first.   Michelle: I think that engaging potential employer partners, stakeholders, families are critical in not just the design and implementation phase, but hanging on to those partners, remembering what they told you in the beginning, revisiting that to give them a feedback loop on how you're incorporating their ideas to keep their partnership going, even when it's like, hey, remember you said that maybe you thought you could take on a few NextGen-ers in your organization? We're there now, keeping in contact, revisiting conversations. You know, I think that in a lot of grants, we bring our stakeholders to the table when we're applying for the funding and maybe even right when we first get it. And then we let them go away a little bit. So keep them there, keep them in the conversation. Update them on how things are progressing. Continue to ask questions. The world is different than it was two years ago, so our questions should be different as well. So that we're staying current in that partnership is staying current. And I can't stress family engagement enough and how powerful it is with young adults. Most family engagement models were born to serve children, and our young adults continue to have the bulk of their support come from their family members. I think everybody through the life course has the bulk of their support come through their family members. So why would you not have their voice at the table? Why would you not have their ideas? Why would you not consult with them on the course that you're setting with the NextGener, or because they have a lot of insight to share, they have a lot of resources to offer. So continuing that conversation in as well with that very unique set of stakeholders I would recommend.   Carol: Yeah, well said. Joan, any advice you have for our listeners?   Joan: Yeah. I mean, if you are nervous about applying for a grant, this is what I say. Are you an innovative thinker? Are you tired of VR the way it is and you would like to see change? Then I say go for it. VR needs some inspiration, some new strategies to move to the next level. If you are committed to this field, please apply for a DIF grant. Bring your ideas forward so we can infuse the future of VR with new energy and achieve more outcomes for individuals with disabilities who come to us, really depending on us, to help them make life changing decisions. I just want to share a story of a young adult who worked with MRC. He came to us, he was working in a pizza establishment, and he heard about our job driven training in cybersecurity. He applied even though he wasn't sure that that's an area that he could succeed in, graduated the top of the class, and is now earning over $80,000 a year. We want to replicate that 1000 times over with NextGen, and I would love for VR nationally to replicate that story. We want people to make wages that they can live on, that they can support a family on, that they can purchase a home or a car or, you know, live in a nice apartment. We want people to get off of Social Security disability benefits. That is buying into a lifetime of poverty. So we're depending on people with innovative and creative ideas to make that change. Don't be afraid of a DIF, grant. Jump in with both feet and let's make change happen for voc rehab.   Carol: Hear hear, you guys are going to turn VR on its head for sure, I love it. So Michelle, what would be the best way for our listeners to contact you if they wanted to follow up with any questions or like to see any information?   Michelle: Absolutely, we have a landing page. It's very impressive. I think it has this component where you can see videos of all of our NextGen staff. We did that for young adults to be able to check us out in the way that they like to check people out before they engage with them. It's https://www.mass.gov/nextgen-careers and anybody could email me any time MichelleBanks2, the number two, @mass.gov.   Carol: Excellent. You guys have been awesome. I'm so excited and I'm really hoping to check back in with you in a couple of years. As you get further along in the journey, maybe we can do a little repeat podcast and go like, hey, everybody is making they're not making 80,000 Joan. People are making 100 grand and these guys are living their best life. It is happening, I love it. Thank you both so much for participating in this podcast today. Appreciate it.   Joan: Thank you so much.   Michelle: Thank you.   {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

Michelle's first birth began with an induction via an artificial rupture of membranes at 42 weeks per the recommendation of her midwives. Looking back, Michelle realizes that many factors contributed to what may have been a preventable Cesarean. Right after the first trimester of her second pregnancy and at the height of COVID, Michelle's husband deployed. Knowing he wouldn't be home for her birth, Michelle did everything in her power to fight for the redemptive VBAC she deserved. We are in awe of Michelle's strength, resilience, and all of her impressive victories along the way!PLUS…as a certified professional midwife, educator, and a monitrice/labor/bereavement doula with a wealth of knowledge and experience, our guest cohost, Katrina, shares her top five tips on how to have your most empowering birth experience. Additional linksReal Food for Pregnancy by Lily NicholsKatrina's WebsiteKatrina's InstagramHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Welcome, everybody. You are listening to The VBAC Link Podcast. This is your host, Meagan and we have a cohost today. This actually is someone I know personally too. She is one of our VBAC doulas and she's even a midwife now. This is Katrina. Katrina: Hello. Meagan: Thank you so much for being with us today. Katrina: Thanks for having me. Meagan: It's so fun to have you. She used to live here in Utah and then she moved far away. Not really that far, but you feel so far now. Katrina: Yes, yes. I know, I miss everybody.Meagan: But you are doing amazing things where you are at. You are in California, right?Katrina: I am, yes, here on the central coast, so San Luis Obispo county. Meagan: Perfect. Do you want to tell everyone what you are up to these days? Katrina: Sure, yeah. A lot is going on for me. I am a licensed midwife– a certified professional midwife. I'm an educator. I do placenta encapsulation. I'm a labor and bereavement doula. I have a small and intimate practice here on the central coast in Templeton, California where I offer midwifery services, clinical sneak peek, gender draw, monitrice and doula services, encapsulation, and well-woman care. Meagan: Holy smokes. Katrina: A little bit of everything, but I love it all. Meagan: I don't know if you have enough fingers and toes for all of the things you are dipped into, but that is incredible. Holy cow. Katrina: Thank you. Meagan: We're going to make sure everybody if you're in her area, we're going to make sure to have all of her information so you can find her here in the show notes. So don't hesitate to check those out and go find her. She's incredible, you guys. Katrina: Thank you. Meagan: No, thank you. I'm going to turn the time over to you to read a review and then we are going to jump into the incredible story that we have today. Review of the WeekKatrina: Yes, so I have a review to read today that was sent in by Elizabeth Herrera. She says, “Wishing I had Apple Podcasts right now to leave a review. I hope this does the trick. Thank you so much for creating this whole community. After my emergency Cesarean in 2019, I looked up everything possible about being able to VBAC. This led me to your wonderful podcast and blog. I devoured everything. I owe much of my knowledge to you all and to my doula. I'm happy to say that I had my VBAC on March 31st and it was a magical experience. Thank you all so much for all of the materials you have provided which helped me succeed. I hope one day to share my story on your podcast. Many, many thanks.”Meagan: Oh, I love that. We want to keep reminding you guys, we are always taking submissions for podcast recording and I am going to be recording– we are kind of backed up, so if you want to share your story on the podcast or if you want to share your story on social media which we are also doing, please email us or go to our website, thevbaclink.com/share and you can submit your story. Because we don't have as many podcasts as we do posts on social media, feel free to post your information there and we are happy to post your story and share. Every single day, people are searching our Instagram looking for stories to read because they want to hear them. They want to read. They want all of them. I'm sure if you are preparing, you know what I'm talking about. You want it all. You want to digest it all. So if you want to read or share, head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. Michelle's Story Meagan: Okay. Michelle from Iowa. So excited for you to share your story. As I was reading through a little bit about your summary of everything, one of the things that stood out to me and connected was the feeling of not wanting to be recovering from a Cesarean with a second child, with a little one already around. Even though you have lots of support around, not wanting to have to recover and do that alone because your husband was deployed.My husband wasn't deployed, but he didn't have a lot of time off and had to go right back to work so I was like, “Oh my gosh. I don't if I'm going to recover.” I did have to recover with that because I did have a repeat Cesarean, but I was like, “Oh, I understand that want so badly to not have to have that second Cesarean to recover and raise two kiddos without that support, right?”Michelle: Yes, yes. Meagan: I connected with that so much. But okay. And I also connected with your baby turning breech a couple of times. That's so stressful. Michelle: Yes, I was so scared. Meagan: Oh my gosh. With my VBAC, my little guy kept flipping. I'm like, “No. I am not going to have a repeat Cesarean because this guy cannot keep his head down.” Okay. We would love to turn the time over to you and share your story. Michelle: Yes. Jumping in with my first pregnancy, I thought it was a pretty healthy pregnancy. It seemed pretty normal and everything. I didn't have any gestational diabetes. I did end up with quite a bit of fluid retention starting pretty early on, but my blood pressure is always really low, so my midwives weren't really worried about it at all. I had hospital-based midwives for that birth. Looking back, my diet was not good at all. I remember I would read about if you have a craving, just have a little bit of it even if it's something that's not super healthy. So I'd have a tiny little bowl of ice cream, then I'm like, “Well, that's not enough. I have to have a giant bowl of ice cream too.” Meagan: Uh-huh. That's the thing is that sometimes those little tastes can be eating the whole gallon of ice cream.Michelle: Yes, and then when I stopped working at 39 weeks, I didn't feel like cooking myself lunch, so I would just have a microwaved s'more for lunch. Just in general, I was not very good, but I thought I felt okay for being pregnant. Like I said, I didn't have any gestational diabetes, but I was measuring a little bit big around 33 weeks, so they ended up wanting to do a growth scan. That came back just fine. He was in the 50th percentile, around that area, except for his head. His head was in the 98th percentile. I do have big heads in my family, so I wasn't too worried about that. My midwives, most of them, weren't too worried about that, but there was one that kept bringing it up when I would see her. She'd be like, “Oh. Maybe he's having a hard time–” we didn't know it was a “he.” “Maybe the baby's having a hard time engaging because he has a big head, whereas some of the others were more encouraging. It was like, “Maybe he had a growth spurt in his head and the rest of his body will catch up later.” But this one midwife just kept mentioning that. That same midwife, I also noticed, where some of the others would spend several minutes feeling around my belly to make sure they knew what position he was in, I had one check where she felt for his head, “Oh, his head's down,” so she just listed him as OA and didn't check anything else. Yeah. I didn't think too much of it at the time. I got along with her personally and everything. We're going along and I'm trying to do everything naturally, so I just kept waiting to go into labor and it didn't happen. We get to 42 weeks and I'm not ready to wait anymore. I'm comfortable waiting anymore. My midwives are not comfortable waiting anymore, so I went in for an induction. Because I wanted to do everything naturally, what they suggested and what I agreed to was to have them break my water to have my body go into labor on its own. The midwife that was on that day was this midwife who kept doubting that I would be able to. She never said, “I don't think you'll be able to push out the baby with a big head,” but she kept mentioning his big head even when I went in for the induction. So I had them break my water. I think I was probably, I want to say 2-3 centimeters before they broke it and I think I must have been 4 centimeters because she must have stretched me to 4 centimeters because she said, “You're now in active labor,” which didn't make sense to me. Meagan: Yeah. Michelle: I was having some contractions that morning, but I didn't think that I was in active labor.Meagan: Nothing substantial to be in active labor. Michelle: Yeah. But yeah, she must have thought, “Oh. You're in 4 centimeters so you're in active labor.” Anyway, so I was walking the halls and I was in the tub. Things were going okay. I eventually ended up with the epidural and everything and Pitocin. I kept dilating. Everything was going fine. But 12 hours later– and I had multiple, multiple cervical checks. I get to about 12 hours later. I'm basically fully dilated. I'm 9.5 centimeters and I've got an interior lip. She keeps telling me, “He hasn't descended at all.” And then she did say, “He descended a little bit, but it's just the molding of the head. He's not actually descending.” His heart started getting a little bit elevated, so they started worrying about an infection. I was a little bit confused about it at the time, but I wasn't able to think too much of it because my epidural had fallen out. So I'd had all of this build up into transition and everything plus Pitocin without being able to feel it, and now I'm feeling everything. So I wasn't able to think too much of it, but they just took me back for a C-section. We agreed to it, but we didn't ask any questions. My question that to this day I have not had answered is, “Why didn't they have me at least try to push? I was basically dilated.” But in my head at the time, I was just like, “Well, she must just know that he is stuck, so he needs to come out.” Like I said, she didn't really believe in me. I guess she just didn't think he was going to come out. Plus, it was probably 10:30 at that point, so I don't know what time shift ends, but I just felt like she didn't really try. She wasn't in the room that much. She didn't really give me that many suggestions, just was there and gone. Meagan: Kind of left you feeling hanging. Michelle: Mhmm, and unsupported. Yes, yes. So they took me back for the C-section and everything went pretty well. I had a pretty good recovery, but even from the day after my C-section, I was planning for a VBAC.So at my 6-week follow-up appointment, a different midwife from the same practice looked at my chart and she was like, “Yeah you can probably have a VBAC no problem with a smaller baby, just 7-8 pounds.” she looked at my chart and say I gained 55 pounds with my pregnancy and she was like, “Next pregnancy, just eat popcorn and salad and you'll grow a smaller baby and be just fine.” Meagan: Oh! Oh. Well…Michelle: Yeah. So I started looking around after that trying to find out what my other options were for the next baby. At about 7 months postpartum, I was able to find a home birth midwife who said she would be able to see me for a VBAC. She would do nutritional counseling because she was like, “Yeah, that swelling was probably because you didn't have enough protein in your diet.” I'm like, “Yeah, that probably makes sense.” So she said that she would see me for a VBAC whenever that would happen. She would do nutritional counseling and be able to do a home birth at least out of the hospital because I did live kind of far away from a hospital. I wasn't necessarily comfortable doing an actual home birth.Also, about 1-2 months, somewhere in there, after our son was born, we did find out that my husband was going to be deployed. He's with the National Guard, so we didn't know when it was going to happen. We knew it was going to happen, but thankfully, we had quite a bit of warning. I know some people in the regular Army are living far away from family and deployments can happen at a moment's notice. Thankfully, that was not the case for us. Since he's National Guard, we were able to live where we live. We were able to live close to family. Meagan: Yeah. Michelle: So I'm very thankful for that. And again, we knew that the deployment was going to be coming. We had lots of notice instead of not very much notice. But that did make it very difficult because we didn't know exactly when it was going to be. We wanted to try to plan for another baby and that made it difficult to do because we didn't know how to time it. Obviously, things don't always work according to plan anyway. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Michelle: But we ended up getting pregnant when my son was 19 months old. Basically how it ended up working out was I was right at the end of my first trimester when my husband left. I was thankful he was there for at least the first trimester. That helped so much. Meagan: Absolutely. Michelle: And that was the beginning of COVID, so he was actually home quite a bit. He took a few extra weeks off of his job to quarantine and stuff, but also just to be home which was so nice. But when I got pregnant, I started looking around for out-of-hospital options because that's what I really wanted this whole time. No one in my area wanted to see me for a VBAC because I hadn't had any vaginal births before. I didn't have a proven pelvis. Even the home birth midwife who had said she would see me for a VBAC wanted me to have a vaginal birth in the hospital before seeing me for a VBAC later. But she did agree to see me for nutritional counseling and to be my doula in the hospital with this particular midwife practice. Meagan: Great. Michelle: Yeah, that seemed agreeable to me. I had come to the point where I believed in my body's ability to birth a big baby, but at the same time, I was ready to commit to a much healthier diet in order to be able to hopefully grow a smaller baby so that I wouldn't have to fight with any providers about it to have them not try to use scare tactics or anything. I read the book Real Food for Pregnancy by Lily Nichols. Such a good book. Meagan: I love that book, yes. Michelle: I felt so much better through my whole pregnancy even in the first trimester just focusing on eating protein with every snack, trying to go for more complex carbs, keep my blood sugar helped so much with morning sickness and I just felt so much better. Meagan: Good, that's awesome. Katrina: No, I was just going to say that nutrition– we don't really often put too much time or thought into it but it can make such a difference in terms of how we feel, how we carry our babies, and even just our mental capacity and caseload when we're well-nourished. Meagan: Mhmm. Michelle: Yes. Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say that it's crazy how just switching it up ever so slightly can truly impact, like you said, the way you felt and then even outcomes as well. And recovery. Katrina: Absolutely and kudos to that midwife who stepped up and helped you with that nutritional component because I do feel like oftentimes, that's one of the pieces and elements that is left out of prenatal care.  Michelle: Yes. Katrina: We talk about, “Are you exercising?” We weigh you. We say, “Oh, you're gaining too much or not enough,” but that piece of, “Okay, well what are you eating? What are you taking in? Is it processed foods? What are you eating?” I think sometimes, is just really overlooked even though it can have such a monumental impact on you, your body, and your baby. Michelle: Yes. And like I said, after my first, they would be like– the only nutritional guidance I got was, “Oh, you can eat popcorn and salad.” That's just not really helpful. Meagan: No. Katrina: No, it's not. Meagan: Not necessarily the tips that you had been wanting with you. Michelle: Yeah, so then the midwife practice that I was seeing close to where I lived– like I said, another hospital-based midwife practice. Again, I felt like I could get along with the midwives personally, but just every now and again, some less-helpful pieces were sprinkled in. For instance, I mentioned that one of the reasons I really wanted a VBAC was because we wanted to have a big family and I didn't want the size of my family determined by the way I give birth. So she was just like, “Yeah, I understand that, but you know, you might get to four kids and not really want anymore anyway.” I'm like, “Okay, but that's still not how I want my family size to be determined.”Katrina: Right. Michelle: I just felt like there was a lack of trust from the beginning. I just felt like I wasn't able to make my own choices. They used a VBAC calculator to determine whether I was even eligible to be in their practice. They had a 41-week deadline where I had to have the baby or be induced. I was like, “I went to 42 weeks last time and I'm okay with doing that again. I'm all set to do that again.” But if I didn't agree to be induced by 41 weeks, I would risk out of their care and I'd have to be seen by the OBs who are not as VBAC friendly. I also felt like I didn't have any choices with the glucose test. I asked about alternatives and they didn't allow any of that. I asked about if I was to agree to be induced, how would I be induced? Their preferred method of induction was the artificial rupture of membranes which I was absolutely deadset against. I feel like that's the number one reason I ended up with a C-section with my son because I felt like–Meagan: Mmm, too early? Because then with the decels and all of that? Michelle: Yeah, the infection risk as well as my feeling that since it was so early and he was kind of high beforehand, I just felt like it had him settle in a bad position and he couldn't get out of it. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Totally. Michelle: So I was deadset against artificial rupture of membranes, especially artificial rupture of membranes as the induction method. And then they would do Pitocin after that. But they wouldn't do a Foley bulb or anything because apparently somehow, they said that it increases rupture risk. I was like, “That doesn't sound right to me.” Even when I went in for my anatomy scan, because it was COVID like I said, and I had heard so many other people be like, “Yeah, I was able to do a video call with my husband because he wasn't able to be in the room for the anatomy scan.” I thought I would be able to do the same. They were absolutely like, “No way. You can't have any sort of video recording device.”I had a total breakdown at that point. I was like, “This is one of the very, very few parts of my pregnancy that my husband can be a part of because he's gone. He's never going to be able to feel her kick because she was too small before he left and she is going to be born by the time he gets back. He can't feel her kick inside me. There's no other part that he can be a part of.” Finally, they at least let me have him on an audio call. Meagan: Oh my gosh. I'm just over here shaking my head. Katrina: I know. Well, and how disempowering for them to pull everything away from you like that. Especially during COVID. Michelle: Yes. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. And unfortunately, we know you're not the only one that had similar situations like this. I was so frustrated and I'm still frustrated just listening to you. Oh, I'm sorry. Michelle: So yeah. Again, just a lot of things where I just felt like I didn't have choices and didn't have a lot of trust. Finally, my breaking point was when I got to my glucose test. I felt great afterward. I was just like, “I'm so excited to get my results. I feel good that I passed. I want to get my results and get on with my life and not worry about it anymore.” I waited for the call with my results and I didn't get one. It just kept not coming and finally, I don't remember if it was a day later. It was far after I was supposed to get my results. I finally got a call and they were like, “Our lab lost your sample. We weren't able to test it.” Katrina: Oh no. Michelle: I had to go back in and do a second one-hour glucose test and I felt horrible afterward. I had such a bad headache, heartburn, and stomachache. You name it. I got my results back and it was pretty high. I was like, “I don't even trust that this is actually my result because they lost my sample last time.” That's when I realized that I just didn't trust this practice. I know it's a good practice. I even heard a story on this podcast from someone who went to the same practice and had a great experience. It's a good practice. It just, in my situation, I didn't feel like I had the choices that I wanted. Meagan: Yeah. Well, just when you hear, “Oh, this VBAC-supportive provider was super amazing,” that's great for them, but it may not be the right supportive provider for you. Katrina: Right. Meagan: It's the same thing with location and everything like that. Even though there are some people who have had amazing experiences, that doesn't mean that it's the right place or you are feeling the support that someone else may have felt. Michelle: Yeah. So at that point when I finally realized that I don't trust this practice, I called the midwife who was going to be my doula and she was like, “Yeah, I've been kind of holding onto this, but if you feel like you don't trust them, maybe you should just go to Iowa City.” I had been thinking that too, so I was like, “Yeah. I think it's time.” So I switched to Iowa City, but because she is a home birth midwife as well, she wasn't able to make the trip with me because she had her own clients for home birth. So I had to find a new doula. I switched practices around 29 weeks, so then I was 31, 32, 33 weeks looking for a doula and all of the doulas in my area were booked. I finally found one and even though I was traveling to Iowa City which is about a 2-hour drive for me, I wanted to choose one from my own area just in case something happened. I was due in December so if there was a snowstorm or if I was having a really fast labor and I couldn't make it all the way, I still wanted to have my doula with me. I chose one from my own area. I was finally able to find one, and then now that I was traveling for two hours, I'm like, “There's no way that I'm going to take a 3-hour glucose test because that's now a 7-hour ordeal trying to drive two hours while starving and then three hours there, then two hours back while having a glucose hangover.” I just decided that I was going to test my glucose every day. I thought at first that they were going to let me do it just for a week, but then they said that since my one-hour test was already elevated, they wanted me to do it for the rest of my pregnancy. I'm like, “You know what? That is still worth it.” I started doing the 4-hour round trip every two weeks and then every week. It was a lot, but it was totally worth the peace of mind just knowing that if for whatever reason I do end up with a C-section, it's going to be because I actually needed it and not because I was scared into it, because they didn't have enough patience or anything like that. And plus, I was able to listen to The VBAC Link podcast on the way. That was my companion for the drive there. I started doing all of the things for prep– eating the dates, drinking the tea, doing the walks, and going to the chiropractor. Apparently, I created too much space for my baby because then at 37 weeks, I found out that my baby was breech.  That particular day, my midwife made it a little bit scarier like, “Oh, you can try the ECV. These are the things that you can do, but if your baby's breech, then you're going to have to have a C-section.” That was a stressful day and a long drive home. That same day, I found out that I had been exposed to COVID. I ended up testing positive for that. I didn't end up having any symptoms beyond regular pregnancy symptoms. My nose was already stuffy every day. I was tired because I was 37-38 weeks pregnant trying to chase around a 2-year-old by myself, but everyone thought I was going to die. It was just like, “I'm fine. Just leave me alone.” But within the next couple of days, I was doing the Miles Circuit every night. One night I fell asleep doing it and when I woke up, everything was different. All of her movements were different. I was like, “All right. She's head down again. We can keep going along.”We were able to confirm at my next appointment that she was, in fact, head down. I finished my quarantine. I was able to start going back to the chiropractor. I got to 40 weeks and my little gymnast keeps doing flips and she was breech again. Meagan: Oh, so stressful. Katrina: Yes. Michelle: Yes, but a little bit less stressful this time just because my midwife was so much calmer about it. She was like, “If baby is still flipping around at this point, she can do it again.” That helped so much just having her calm presence with the whole thing. We went ahead and scheduled the ECV just in case. She was like, “Well, if we have the ECV and it's successful, we will just go ahead and induce you because you are already 40 weeks, and that way she doesn't have a chance to come out of your pelvis and flip again.”I was able to flip her again with the Miles Circuit. At that point, I started belly binding because I think I had a pendulous belly probably, looking back. I just think that my uterus was a little tipped forward so she couldn't settle in my pelvis and had all of that room to be free-floating and flipping around. So then we get to 40 weeks and 6 days. I started feeling some contractions. It was 12:30 in the afternoon. I was like, “This feels a little bit different.” I hadn't had any Braxton Hicks contractions that would be a little bit uncomfortable. Mostly, it was just tightening like, “Hmm. This one actually is a little bit uncomfortable.” But it didn't really feel like too much yet so I just went about my day. I was scared to lie down because I didn't want it to stop. I didn't want to rest. My mom came in that evening because I was supposed to have an appointment the next morning, but the contractions kept going. Toward the evening, I finally started contacting my doula, the hospital, and then my sister-in-law who was going to drive me to the hospital. I tried doing some resting. I took a bath and then I was able to put my son to bed as an only child for the last time. I was glad that I was able to do that. Just one last moment of normalcy. Yeah, so we made the 2-hour drive. We made it to the hospital at about midnight. I was about 4 centimeters. They were able to confirm on the ultrasound that she was head down still. I did make a point to wear my own gown for laboring because I didn't want to get into that patient mentality. One thing I did not do that I wish I would have is I did not wear my belly binder, so I think she was still kind of floating around a little bit. I got to my room. They were able to have me on the wireless monitor so I could keep moving around. My belly was so round that they had a hard time keeping it on her. This whole time, I still didn't really even feel like I was fully in labor. I was able to have a conversation and I definitely wouldn't have gone yet if I didn't have a 2-hour drive. My doula kept encouraging me to rest which I did not want to do. I wanted to be up and moving during the contractions. I felt like if I was on the bed and a contraction hit, then I couldn't get up to move and it just made it so much worse. Probably at 5:30-6:00 in the morning, she fell off the monitor which I didn't think too much of. The nurse came in to adjust it. She's moving it all around and she finally finds the heartbeat way up high on my abdomen which is where they had always found her heartbeat when she was breech. Meagan: I was going to say, I bet your heart was thinking, “Breech!”Michelle: Yeah, I was in total panic. I was like, yeah. I was panicking. I couldn't stay calm during contractions. I couldn't relax during contractions anymore. I was just in total panic. My doula and my nurse and everything kept trying to keep me calm. I was just like, “Just let me panic for a minute. This is scary. I don't want to be calm right now.” Meagan: Yeah. That's a valid feeling. It's okay to get it out and process it versus having to hold it in and deal with it until later. Just let it be for a second. Michelle: Yeah. It was around 7:00 a.m. when they made it in. The ultrasound confirmed that she was still head down. My thought now was probably that she was descending into my pelvis and where they were able to find it changed. She was still head down, so we were good to go. At that point, I still couldn't calm down. I was still in that panic mode. I wasn't able to cope anymore. So I was like, “As long as she comes out vaginally, I don't care. I wanted to go all-natural, but now I don't care. Just give me the epidural. Get her out.” My doula was like, “Yeah, you can have the epidural if you want, but let's try the shower first.” The shower was awesome. Instant relief. Immediately, I was like, “I can think clearly again. I can relax during contractions.” But then almost immediately after that, I started wanting to push. I told my doula, I was like, “I feel like I'm going to push her out really fast.” My doula was like, “Well, you still will need to probably pace yourself. The first time pushing, it's probably going to be a while.”I got out of the shower. She encouraged me to labor down on the toilet. That's when I started actively, involuntarily pushing. My water broke almost right away and it was kind of funny because I immediately hopped off of the toilet. I thought I had accidentally pushed out my baby in the toilet, but it was just my water breaking.” Meagan: It's crazy how sometimes, that water right? Michelle: Yeah. Meagan: We never know how it's going to happen or what it's going to feel like, Michelle: Yeah, and again, it hadn't happened naturally for my first either. I wasn't ready for it even though I had been in labor for 19 hours. I just wasn't ready for it. But yeah. They got me off the toilet. They could see, obviously, that I was pushing so they were like, “We'd better go check and see if you're complete.” They tried to get me back to the bed and someone told me that they wanted me on my back for a cervical check. I wanted to go on the bed and go on my hands and knees, but I was told that I had to get on my back. I made it on the bed. I made it on my side and I was like, “I'm not moving anymore. I'm done. I'm not moving anywhere.” So then I was complete. They were letting me push. I was like, “Well, that's good because there is no way I'm going to be able to stop even if you tell me that I can't.”Katrina: Yeah, once your body takes over control, that's it. Michelle: Yeah. I felt really good having my legs closed trying to push, but they had me keep opening my legs. In retrospect, I can't help but wonder if they would have let me have my knees together and my feel apart if that would have felt better for me, but that's not what happened. The funny thing is what I remember most is what I could hear throughout this whole thing. When they were trying to open my legs for me or getting things ready and I didn't like it, I just remember saying, “No, no, no.” I just remember thinking even at that moment, I just feel like I sounded like my son. I feel like I sounded like my two-year-old, but that was all I could say at the time. And then I just remember the sound of myself grunting while I was pushing. I remember the sound of everyone in the room really loudly saying, “Yes, yes, yes! Push!” They weren't coaching, but really loudly encouraging. Behind all of that, what I really remember and what really stands out to me is that I was able to have my husband on FaceTime and his voice being the calm voice, just the calm, steady encouragement. That was so helpful. Yeah, that's what I remember most, and being on my side. What I did really like about it was being able to completely and totally relax my whole body in between contractions. If I had been on my hands and knees, I would still have to hold myself up. But being on my side was total rest during contractions which was really nice. Meagan: Really lovely, I'm sure. Michelle: Yeah. So then she was born at 8:14 a.m., so I had been in the hospital for 8 hours. She was born OP. I only pushed for 11 minutes. Meagan: Whew!Katrina: Wow, that's amazing. Michelle: Yeah. My first thought is, “Yeah, I probably could have–” She was a lot smaller than my son, but if he was in a good position and she was OP. If I could push her out in 11 minutes, I probably could have pushed him out if he had been in a good position. To everyone who doubted me, I'm pretty sure I could have done that. But I was able to announce the gender because we didn't know beforehand, so I got to do that. I got to cut the cord which was great and very special. I did end up having a third degree tear and definitely some sacral bruising which makes sense because she came out really fast and she was OP. She was just over 2.5 pounds smaller than her brother. It kind of makes sense where she got all of that extra room to be flipping around. But even with some of the bigger injuries of the third-degree tear, I still felt like what most people describe as a second-degree tear, so I had a pretty easy recovery. It was still easier than a C-section even though I had an easy recovery from my C-section. I will say that I did also have a little bit of a lack of immediate connection just being completely unmedicated and not quite expecting her to come that fast. My first thought when they pulled her out and put her on me was, “Where did this baby come from? This is not my baby.” But of course, it was because no one else brought a baby in from another room. This is my baby that I just pushed out. Meagan: Just magically appeared right here. “I did do something before this.” That's so cute. Michelle: But yeah, she was the first vaginal birth out of all the grandkids on both sides of the family. They've all been born by C-sections for various reasons. Meagan: Oh, really? Michelle: Yeah.Meagan: Interesting. Michelle: My parents have six kids. The first two were born vaginally, but then they had some pretty adverse birth injuries, so they had her have C-sections for the last four of us, so on my side of the family, she is the first baby born vaginally in 40 years. Katrina: Whoa. Michelle: So that was pretty cool being able to break the traditions and set my own standards and goalposts. Meagan: Yeah. Katrina: Yeah. Meagan: That's fun, so what did everybody think when you were like, “Hey, I want to go for this VBAC” in your family?Michelle: Well, my mom definitely understood but didn't understand. I mean, for the most part, my family was pretty supportive. My husband was very supportive. His mom has eight kids. They were all natural. The last one was a home birth, so they are all on board with all-natural. So yeah. They were supportive for the most part. Like I said, my mom understood but didn't understand. She didn't understand not wanting to be induced.Meagan: Didn't fully understand. Michelle: Yeah, she didn't understand me wanting to make my own decisions rather than just following whatever the provider says. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense. Well, congratulations. Michelle: Thank you. Katrina: Yeah. Michelle: It's been a little while now. She'll be two in December and it's great too because I never was able to decide where to start on writing down a birth story or anything, so it's nice being able to fully get it out all in order and everything. Meagan: Mhmm, I love it. Awesome. Well, Ms. Katrina has a little bit of our end-of-topic. You know how at the end of episodes, we like to share an extra topic? I'm so excited to hear what she is going to bring to you. Katrina's 5 TipsKatrina: Yes, yeah. I have a few tips that I'd like to share and then I have a little bit of a piece of home birth after Cesarean that I wanted to share that I attended. The beliefs that you hold in the abilities of your mind and your body are hugely influential in preparing for your birth. The following are some tips that I've put together to support an empowering birth experience. The first is to cultivate your physical, mental, and spiritual strength, stamina, and endurance. The second is to love yourself. Be mindful of your nutrition and your hydration. Manage your stress. Make yourself a priority when it comes to self-care in both emotional and physical elements and prioritize your rest and sleep. Number three: build the best birth team you can and one that will support you in all components of your pregnancy, labor, birth, and postpartum periods including emotional, mental, and physical support. Don't forget that this birth team works for you and you can replace team members at any point if they no longer align with your values and your goals. Number four: arm your toolbelt with knowledge. Practice physical positioning and utilization of your comfort tools. And lastly, number five: move, move, move. Your mind, body, and baby need movement and motion throughout your pregnancy, labor, birth, and beyond. In closing, I just wanted to share that I trust birth fully. I believe in personal autonomy, informed decision-making and consent, and birth options for all birthing people. I wanted to share– like I said earlier, I had the honor and privilege of attending a beautiful home birth after a Cesarean just over a year ago. This family was amazingly strong and determined. They birthed their baby in the comfort of their home at 42 weeks on the dot and had a beautiful baby boy who was 11 pounds and 15 ounces. Meagan: Whew! I love it. That just gave me chills because it's like, yes. This is possible. This is possible. Katrina: It is. It's possible. Women and birthing people are amazing and incredible. I truly believe following your intuition and seeking the support that you feel that you need and desire is just monumental in terms of the entire birth experience. Meagan: It goes back to even proven pelvis and all of that, right? Why, why, why do we have to prove ourselves? Why do we have to do that? Because I feel like, when someone says, “I can't do this because you have to prove to me,” and then if we don't “prove” in the way that they see it, then we feel like we failed. This failure word, this word fail comes up way too often and I don't like it. I don't like it. Katrina: Right, and ultimately, everyone should have the opportunity to have a trial of labor. There's no reason to not let people do that. Meagan: Absolutely. I agree. Absolutely. I love it. Thank you both for being with me today. So happy that you were both with me. Katrina: Thank you and congratulations, Michelle. I love your story. Michelle: Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me on. It's an honor to be able to finally share my story. It's great to be on after listening throughout my pregnancy and everything. Meagan: Yes, yes. I love it. Well, thank you both for your time, and again, congratulations, Michelle. Katrina, I'm blown away by all of the amazing things that you are doing. You always have been amazing, but it's like you just keep adding to this amazing resume. I'm so happy for you. Katrina: Thank you. Thank you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Unison: 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 (Countdown) Marlo: Lift off. I was gonna say blast off. I’m gonna let you do that. So Michelle Lucas higher orbits. Thanks for being with me today. Michelle: So excited to be here. It’s my first time at CES and they get to see […] The post Prepare for the Galaxies with Higher Orbits appeared first on The Tech Ranch.

High school winner Michelle So, and middle school winners Ethan Tso, Carol Chen, and Carie Chen read their 2021 Fall DCI News Writing Competition winning article submissions!

In this week's episode, we chat with Michelle Race, Senior Technical SEO at DeepCrawl about all things XML sitemaps. Where to find Michelle: Twitter: https://twitter.com/shellyweb --- Episode Sponsor This season has been sponsored by NOVOS. NOVOS, the eCommerce SEO agency, has won multiple awards for their SEO campaigns including Best Global SEO Agency of The Year 2 years running. Trusted by over 150 global eCommerce brands including the likes of Bloom & Wild, Patch and Thread, NOVOS provides tech eCommerce SEO expertise with a creative edge. They have been named as one of 2021's best workplaces in the UK and with a diverse, gender-balanced team are a culture-first agency. The great news is that you can join them! They're hiring senior digital PR and SEO strategists. Visit http://thisisnovos.com/ (thisisnovos.com) or follow on Linkedin @thisisnovos Where to find Novos: Website - https://thisisnovos.com/ LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/thisisnovos Twitter - https://twitter.com/thisisnovos Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thisisnovos/ --- Episode Transcript Areej: Hey everyone, welcome to a new episode of the Women in Tech SEO podcast, I'm Areej AbuAli. I am the founder of Women in Tech SEO. So, today's episode is one that I'm excited about. It's all about XML Sitemaps. And joining me today is the brilliant Michelle Race. She's a Senior Technical SEO at DeepCrawl.  Hey, Michelle! Michelle: Hello. How are you? Areej: I'm good. How are you doing? Michelle: I'm good, thank you. Areej: I was so excited when I saw that pitch come through because as geeky as it sounds, I love XML site maps. I love everything about them. So, I love the fact that you pitched that across. Thank you for that. Michelle: No worries, I feel like they are often a bit forgotten about. So, I wanted to try and change that. Areej: Yeah. So, can we get started by knowing a little bit more about you, how you got into the world of SEO? Michelle: Yeah, sure. So, after uni I worked at a few agencies as a front-end web developer, just building website templates. My last agency then decided to stop building websites and my boss at the time said "Oh, why don't you look into technical SEO?" as they didn't currently have an expert. It was a bit daunting at first, but knowing things that HTML helped a lot with understanding the basic tags. And then over the years, I taught myself with lots of help from Google Help forums and documentation, and I was Head of technical SEO there for quite a long time. But then in November last year, I joined DeepCrawl as a Senior Technical SEO and I work in a team of amazing technical SEOs and it's so fun. I love it. Areej: Yeah, you work with such awesome people, like some of the best women I know in tech SEO work there so I can imagine how amazing it is to be working alongside them. Michelle: Yeah, I feel very lucky. Areej: How did you find the whole, like, agency versus not agency life? Michelle: Yeah, it was a big change and at DeepCrawl I get to work with large enterprise clients and there's a lot of differences. So, it's really good. Areej: Yeah, I love that. I used to be agency side for a little bit over five years before I moved in-house, and I prefer in-house, and I can imagine how exciting it is in DeepCrawl getting to work with all kinds of clients as well. Michelle: Yes, definitely Areej: Awesome. And then like for women who are just starting in the industry, because with our audience base, we have women from all walks of life. Any advice you would give them? Michelle: So, I found it a lot easier to understand technical SEO knowing things like HTML and how a page should be structured. So, I'd recommend trying to learn the basics of things like HTML and also set up a website, if you can, because it's really good for testing and then obviously join communities like Women in Tech SEO. And also, Twitter is a great resource to follow experts and ask

In this week's Solidarity Fridays episode, Kyle, Joe, and Michelle start out by reflecting on the awesome conversation with Dr. Carl Hart from earlier in the week and everything it made them think about concerning the drug war, society's framing of addiction, how different drugs have been vilified in different eras, privilege, and how greed is keeping the truth from us. They then launch into the articles, which really run the gamut: Nebraska's governor saying cannabis will kill your children, the Biden administration asking staffers to resign over past cannabis use (What? A politician LIED TO US?!), a study from 2008 showing no statistical difference between SSRI and placebo effects (notable because it mirrors findings from the recent microdosing study they keep discussing), and an opinion piece on the healing power of mushrooms. They then talk about an interesting study where researchers are looking to predict who will do best with psychedelic-assisted therapy, and who might have a really challenging experience. Could you always predict that? Or is it just about getting to know a patient, supporting them, and titrating the dose, hence the title? And since there aren't enough links on this page: If you've been looking to take the Navigating Psychedelics for Clinicians and Therapists live course you keep hearing about, new dates are up, so now is the time! And if you want a free copy of Dr. Carl Hart's amazing book, Drug Use for Grown-Ups, we're giving away 5, thanks to Penguin Random House, so make sure to enter the giveaway! Notable Quotes "Why are we only concerned about someone’s psychological well-being when it has to do with drugs?” -Michelle “Heroin was killing a lot of Black men in the 70s and no one cared. And now that it’s killing all these white people with opioids and all this middle-class stuff, all of a sudden, we care. And we want harm-reduction and we want laws and we want drug-checking. But no one gave a fuck 40 years ago.” -Michelle “So we had the war on drugs and ‘drugs are bad.’ ‘Weed, psychedelics- they’ll make you go crazy.’ And now we have that part of the drug war sort of ending and we’re legalizing them and we’re making money off of them, so all of a sudden, we’ve gone from one untruth which is 'all drugs are bad’ to this kind of other untruth which is like, ‘Weed and psychedelics: they’ll save your life, they’re great, everyone should use them!’ It’s like, fuck, dude, where was the middle? Where was the neutral? Where was the actual truth?” -Michelle “How do we catch medicine up to the state of science? Medicine seems to be 10 to 30 years behind science, often. ...Sorry doctors- I don’t mean to insult you, but it’s your field, it’s not you as an individual. If you’re listening to this show, clearly you’re ahead of the curve.” -Joe “Just thinking about how transpersonal came out of the humanistic movement because they needed something new, we’re at a new point where like, how do we incorporate and integrate a lot of this neuroscience, the somatics, the transpersonal, the depth, and what could a new field look like? ...What would that look like to create a new branch of psychology that really incorporates and integrates a lot of this stuff, and the impact that psychedelics have had on this? What type of theories and frameworks do we need, moving forward, as psychedelics become more integrated into the culture and into the medical realm? Do we need to bring psyche back a little bit with the psychedelics, to really help give a framework or some context to some of these transpersonal and numinous experiences?” -Kyle  Links Hilary Agro’s tweet Narconomics: How to Run a Drug Cartel, by Tom Wainwright Hightimes.com: Nebraska Gov. Pete Ricketts Says Marijuana Will ‘Kill Your Children’ Norml.org: Marijuana Regulation and Teen Use Rates Rollingstone.com: Evanston, Illinois Will Use Weed Tax to Fund Nation’s First Government Reparations Program Thedailybeast.com: Biden White House Sandbags Staffers, Sidelines Dozens for Pot Use Ncbi.nlm.nih.gov: Initial Severity and Antidepressant Benefits: A Meta-Analysis of Data Submitted to the Food and Drug Administration The Emperor's New Drugs: Exploding the Antidepressant Myth, by Irving Kirsch, PhD Chemistryworld.com: LSD: cultural revolution and medical advances Bdnews24.com: Can magic mushrooms heal us? Talkbusiness.net: Alice Walton’s Whole Health Institute will build a new medical school in Bentonville Scienceblog.com: Predicting Who May Do Best With Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy Pubs.acs.org: Predicting Reactions to Psychedelic Drugs: A Systematic Review of States and Traits Related to Acute Drug Effects Psychedelics Today: Kyle Buller and Joe Moore – A Clinical Approach to Trauma Resolution Utilizing Breathwork Support the show! Patreon Leave us a review on Facebook or iTunes Share us with your friends Join our Facebook group - Psychedelics Today group – Find the others and create community. Navigating Psychedelics  

Scott and Michelle offer these practices to keep in mind at any stage of a health journey. Mindfulness. Take just a few moments to be present and distraction-free. Don't overcomplicate the journey. Overthinking and overcontrolling quickly lead to anxiety and depression. Taking small, practical steps will get you where you need to be. Share your journey with others, but not everybody. Close friends can keep you accountable and motivated. But your journey is intimate and won't always be pretty.  Have the right reason. There is something intrinsically motivating you to live a better life. Don't confuse that with the urge to suddenly identify as a health nut. Living in the past isn't productive. Your body changes, and your lifestyle changes. What worked then might not work now. Take this into account when evaluating what exercise is right for you and what you expect your body to do and look like. Limit social media. It's a time suck. Sleep well and take time to relax. The hours between 11-3 AM are our best opportunity for quality sleep. Don't skip it. Let go of toxic relationships. You can't easily avoid people, but you can let certain people in closer while others remain at a distance. Setting personal boundaries with even your loved ones will lead to healthier relationships. TranscriptMichelle: Welcome to the Totality Living Well podcast where we probe into the nitty-gritty aspects of health: the good, the offbeat, and even the controversial things that aren't always discussed. Whether you've had a long-standing curiosity or simply want to know more about a topic, we're here to explore the solutions and answers to empower you in body, mindset, and spirit.Scott: Hey guys, Scott and Michelle Williams here. Healthy living consultants, certified in nutrition fitness and neuromuscular massage.Michelle: We're parents, business owners, and understand the challenges that life can bring with keeping the elements of your own health on track while ensuring that the kids, parents, pets, and loved ones in your life are also taken care of with the resources they need for health and longevity.Scott: We're so glad you joined us.Michelle: Seeking to live a life of health for many entails acknowledging a specific need, setting a goal for improvement, and then implementing the necessary steps to reach that goal. But that's not always as easy as it sounds is it, especially when it comes to all of the factors pertaining to real life. If it were that simple, then the health and wellness industry wouldn't be as big as it is. Welcome everyone to our podcast today. I am Michelle Williams, along with my fabulous husband Scott Williams from Totality Living Well. And today we're going to be addressing the one issue that can trip us up as we aspire to reach any health goal, or really any goal. And that is energy drains.Scott: That's right. The topic needs to be discussed because as health professionals, we've seen so many people out there that really and truly want to make a change. And they come to us and they're so excited about doing that. And so many things start to get in their way, and they just don't understand why they cannot get to that point.Michelle: So, the last time we left you with some tips on how to really get cruising on your health journey. And why don't you recap those for us?Scott: Practicing mindfulness in your life is such an important mindset on this. It's not just about your body, it's about your body, mind, and your spirit. Self-care is vital for us: to take care of others, we've really truly got to be able to take care of ourselves to begin with. And don't overcomplicate the journey. The journey can be simple, you just have to get moving, you don't need to assess every single thing that you see in a magazine or everything everybody else is doing.Michelle: And that leads to this valuable insight that we want to share is how to reach those goals without the distractions and those things that can deplete our journey. So, we've got a long list of sneaky little traps that can be avoided, if we know what they are. And we're just going to share those with you and just go ahead and dig in.Scott: Sounds good.Michelle: Okay, so the first one, I think it just goes in right with that third tip of don't overcomplicate the journey, and that's overthinking the journey. I guess just any client we've really worked with who gets kind of caught up in—you know, I'm guilty of doing this myself: individuals who really want to control the journey ahead, and one way to kind of think that they can do that is by overthinking. And ultimately, when I started thinking about this, I started thinking about overthinking really kind of has a couple of different underlying reasons. One is maybe a lack of organization. Two would be a lack of confidence or having self-doubt about the journey ahead, and then not fully having a defined goal or being fully committed to that goal. And then when I started thinking about that a little bit more I thought about overthinking maybe is actually something that stems from worry or desperation to really want to accomplish that goal. So, it's not really something that's counterproductive for us, and when you think about it, it's more of a mind issue. So, that effort to control the whole journey ahead by overthinking is really the one thing that makes you lose control, and it just totally self-sabotage is the entire thing. So, basically, just keep it simple.Scott: Right, exactly. Because people do come in with great goals. And I think that what they're looking for is they're looking for validation in that goal; they want you to validate what they're trying to achieve. Sometimes it might not be their actual goal, but they think, “Oh, but this is going to make me healthy and/or this is going to make my professional that I'm working with think that I'm on the right track.”Michelle: Like, I'm truly invested in that.Scott: Exactly. And sometimes you have to take a step back and figure out realistically, it's like, how do you look at the baby steps of this goal and come back to kindergarten as opposed to running as a senior. And really, and truly taking the steps to go level by level to achieve those goals.Michelle: I think one of the things that goes along with it, and it's not really part of the notes that we had kind of things that we wanted to discuss today, but also overtalking about something; just talking incessantly about, “I'm going to be a vegetarian,” “I'm a vegetarian,” “Oh, my new vegetarian diet.” I mean, just for example.Scott: Oh, yeah.Michelle: And then just that constant talk, talk, talk, it's almost like there's a way to have that proper accountability, but there's also a way that people try to convince themselves and they're not really realizing that they're convincing themselves. So, I think that overtalking goes right in hand-in-hand with overthinking.Scott: I think so too, and I think what happens is, people need to keep that to one or two people that can actually really help them kind of just grab forward and go with that, but not talk to everybody about it. Because everybody just gets tired of hearing it because all they want to see is, “Okay, you're doing that. So, what's the result? What's this look like?” You know, they look at you and go, “Well, you're a vegetarian, or you've done this, or you've done that. What was your goal truly about? And are you really achieving it, or do you look the same as you did a month ago when I saw you?”Michelle: I think one of the things, too, is like, if someone establishes a goal and it's not for the right reasons to accomplish something, but rather to make it an identity, that's when you see a lot of that happen. People are kind of wanting to establish something to be known for.Scott: Right, exactly. Because everybody wants to be popular in the public. Everybody wants to be known for something. And sometimes that is lack of what they had as a kid as far as the compliments from people as a child, and they're still trying to feed that back into their lives.Michelle: Yeah. And when we do start working with clients for their health journey, we really do assess where they are in that whole goal-setting place in life because there are different phases: there's that pre-contemplation, and then there's the contemplation, all the way up to action. And so when someone's finally in that action phase, they're still not overthinking. So, I think that that's probably a kind of a good sign of not being fully ready to move forward.Scott: It is truly. And that helps them really assess because sometimes they think they come in, and they're like, “Yep, here's the money, let's go.” And they think by hiring you, or by having someone holding you accountable, it's going to just flip a switch, and all of a sudden—and their goals are going to just happen magically. And really, and truly, we got to step back and see why.Michelle: Another big energy drainer that I see with people who do overthink is living in the past. And I know that you can speak to this just the same, where we meet with people—and let's just say middle-agers, okay. Let's just say somebody who had a great football career when they were teenagers, and they ate the house down, and they can't understand what the age of 45 they're gaining all this weight. They never had that problem before. Well, are you moving the way that you moved when you were a teenager, you know, to warrant eating that? Another thing would be from ladies, I hear, “Well, I know exactly what to do. I'm just here for the accountability, and what I've done has worked in the past.” And I kind of laugh to myself, “Well, if it worked in the past, why are we here?” Because if you lost that weight before you had children, and you were in your 20s, and you knew what to do, and you were radically going for it, and then, later on, you have children, and you haven't lost that baby weight and it's been 15 years, since you've lost that baby weight, what worked then, chances are it's not going to work now. And so we have to always be mindful and reminding ourselves and other people that what has always worked doesn't always work. I know personally, there are times in my life, I guess, I found myself wanting to detoxify from childhood, processed meats and things like that, where going vegetarian was a great thing for me. Ultimately, going vegan was nice for a little while. And I had my children and Mama wanted some meat, and so that meat-eating diet kind of came back and it was right for me at that time. And as a nutrition specialist coaching other people, one thing that we can say is that there's not a one size fits all approach to diet and to exercise, movement, that kind of thing. And you think about it: babies have a totally different requirement, from a nutrition standpoint than a toddler. A toddler's got a totally different need than a teenage boy playing football. That teenage boy playing football has a totally different dietary need than someone who's going to be hitting the big three-oh for their milestone birthday. And that person is still going to be different from what a senior needs. So, we all need different things at different times. And living in the past, it's a comfort to say, “I've been there, I've accomplished, I knew it worked,” but the mind needs new things, the body needs new approaches based on what our resources are, what our routines are, what the current body is, what we have and that kind of thing. I know, you've seen that too.Scott: Exactly. When I was in my teens I worked out, I played sports. When I got into my 20s, I started mountain biking. At that point in time, you go to mountain bike ride and burning and 3500 calories a day. And I could eat like a house, and realistically, it wasn't a big thing. Then I rolled into my 30s, kind of got away from that kind of conditioning, went back into the gym and started a little bit more about building muscle, and then I had to retain correct nutrition, and not just caloric density, to actually rebuild the body that I wanted to. And then in my 40s I started looking ahead, and all of a sudden, all the active things that I did, my joints weren't exactly wanting to do it as much anymore, and then you should have a shift of metabolism. And you have to realistically figure out what is your goal right now because what you're doing in your 40s is not what you were doing in your 20s. You have to have that reality check; you're not going to have what you had in your 20s, but how do you make your best 40s?Michelle: Right, and a 50-year-old cannot look like their 20-year-old self. It's just, it doesn't matter how many times they go to have their hair done, or go under the knife, or have all these aesthetic treatments, it's a different body, and it is about embracing what you have to work with, in the current moment.Scott: Exactly.Michelle: So, I guess I would just say, to remember that today's a new day; yesterday's the past and just don't go back. Just leave it in the past.Scott: Leave it in the past.Michelle: Yeah, set your new goals for the day ahead.Scott: Right, and just make sure that you're—just find that mindset that you're good with that. And I think that's what people stumble with is you've got to look at yourself and go, hey, I am great where I am, and I can be the best 40-year-old, 50-year-old, 60-year-old that I can be out there, versus some of the people you see out there that are in your same age range. One of the big things that we talk a little bit about as far as time and things that take away from, I want to talk a little bit about social media. Everybody wants to get on social media; social media, it's just such a trap out there. And realistically, you spend 10 minutes here, you spend 20 minutes, there, you spend 30 minutes there, and all of a sudden you say, “Well, I just don't have time to go to the gym anymore,” or, “I don't have time to eat right,” or, “I don't have time to sit and read and meditate a little bit.” If you look at some of those trackers out there, you can actually really tell what you're doing with each thing that you have on your phone, you can see how much time you're wasting.Michelle: It's crazy. I mean it, it becomes addictive.Scott: It does.Michelle: I mean, not only to the kids but adults too. I can log in not even realizing that I'm logging in to check my feed. I don't even think that I'm doing it; I'm doing it subconsciously. And I can look down and think that maybe 5 or 10 minutes has gone by, and it's been an hour plus.Scott: Right.Michelle: And I just read feeds. Boy, I could have really read a good chapter in a book. [laugh].Scott: Yeah, getting caught up. Or I could have actually got up and went for a walk, and then got some sunshine.Michelle: Yeah, no kidding. I agree; social media is a huge energy trap. And I think just checking email also, it can be a big distraction, too.Scott: Yeah, because we have so much junk email out there. If everything could filter out all of the junk, and you could truly just get the true emails you need each day, that would be great.Michelle: Yeah, I think it's the same thing. I think just setting designated times and timelines for looking at those kinds of things is a huge help.Scott: Yeah. And then beyond that, it's just like, we spend so much time doing some of that stuff, we stay up too late. We stay up too late on social media, we stay up too late in emails, we stay up too late watching TV, some people stay up too late playing video games. And when you stay up too late, you throw off your entire next day.Michelle: Well, especially when it's time and again. Because okay, yes, there's going to be the big ball game that comes on, and that's going to run late into the night, and we want to see that; we don't want to record that; we don't want to watch what's more fun to watch live. I mean, certain things need to take place in real-time.Scott: Oh, exactly.Michelle: And kids might have sports. And a lot of those times we know from when our kids were in cross country. We didn't get home until 10 o'clock at night, sometimes. It was a school night.Scott: It was crazy.Michelle: It was. So, I mean there are times when we have to kind of make the exception, but I do think it builds up, like what you're saying. And then that really wears the body down and the mind down.Scott: It really does because you actually then to start the next day, you want to eat everything that you can because your body is deprived of what it needed for rest. So, now it's going to try to replace it with calories.Michelle: Yeah, it messes up that leptin and ghrelin hormone balance of when you are hungry and how full you are, and those just get really whacked out when you don't get that sleep. And then too, I have learned from multiple sources time and again at different seminars and from various educators, that the time period that you can sleep between 11 p.m. and 3 a.m. are valid for regenerating the body, resetting the body. So, yes, you can go to bed a little later than what you want to be, if you can stay asleep and get good quality sleep in that little window of time, you're at least doing yourself a favor.Scott: Definitely. But four hours sleep isn't quite enough for the night.Michelle: Yeah, not for the norm. I mean, there are some rare individual, I guess, that can get by with that, but that's certainly not me.Scott: Me either. [laugh].Michelle: And we have taken a couple of supplements before that have helped us. Obviously, we recommend everybody check with their health care provider and professional before doing anything, but we've had great experience with melatonin and [00:15:58 methionine], which is an amino acid, just bringing calm to the body, helping it turn off. Soaking in a hot bath with lavender and Epsom salt.Scott: Yeah, a lot of relaxation type things before bed.Michelle: And turning lights out. Turning lights and electronics out and just, you know, unplugging.Scott: Right. Easy, soft music, something just that relaxes you down.Michelle: Right. And you were saying that it does throw off the way we eat. So, that brings us to our fifth energy drainer. And that is living on a poor diet. I mean, you think about it, you're tired, you're running late for work, you haven't prepared anything for lunch, or even breakfast and you're going by the drive-through. First thing you're going to do is grab that fast sandwich, that biscuit, whatever, and that's not really giving you quality nutrition. So, over time, your body's getting dead food; it's getting processed food, and it can't regenerate by its divine design. It's one thing to grab that one meal on a quick whim, but to make that your lifestyle, that starts to add up, and that starts to make you feel pretty lousy. And when I teach kids, one of the slides that I have is garbage in, garbage out. So, what you take in, that's what you're going to be putting back out. And a lot of times, that's really lousy energy—Scott: It truly is.Michelle: —you know, and irritability, and not being able to be on your game. So, I even use that with the chefs that I teach at the college for the Culinary Institute. They want to know, why is healthy food, all that important? And I'm like, let's just rewind down to the basics: it's an energy drainer. You don't feel good, and you're not living that quality life.Scott: Yeah, exactly. It's one of those things that, if you were around from different decades, as we were, and if you can realize the fact that why can they still sell a hamburger for the same price they did when we were kids.Michelle: Or the ice cream sandwich that never melts on the sidewalk. [laugh].Scott: [laugh].Michelle: That's really weird.Scott: And we watched the kids get fast food type things around here that you look in a cup and it's still there the next day, and you're like, why is that still in a full form?Michelle: Yeah, that's really freaky. You know that Twinkie test, I've never taken the Twinkie test but apparently, they don't rot at all, they're so loaded. [laugh]. I remember eating Twinkies when I was a little girl. I was given one to—my mom gave it to appease me before breakfast, so I wonder if those Twinkies are still with me? Well, basically getting good fresh enzymes, and that means the colors of the rainbow that are grown in nature your red, orange, yellow, green, blue, fruits, vegetables and get those in when you can even if you do have to merge that with foods that aren't ideal, and they're more of the grab-and-go if you can grab that salad or even a juice, that's better for you, getting those life enzymes.Scott: Definitely. Exactly. When we go into another step of life as far as things that actually drain us as well, and we started looking at relationships. Being out there, and toxic relationships, and negative people, and—Michelle: No, not in this day and age. [laugh].Scott: And just the negative side of everything. You look at—if you turn on the news, everybody's hating on everybody. And it's like, when did we start becoming such a society of hate, and where did the love go? And so, the more that you can separate yourself from those types of things, the better that you do with life if you begin your day with more positivity.Michelle: There's this book that I have been reading, and it's pretty neat. It's called Your Body Believes Every Word You Say. And this lady was really ill, and she couldn't figure out how to get well. And then she started changing the way that she thought and the way that she spoke and her body responded, and it's a pretty cool story. I don't know who the author is, but it's a pretty good book. And it's true. It's like, the words that you are around and the words that you speak, they do either make or break you. And when you are around that negativity—and sometimes you can't help it. Sometimes you work with someone, and you see someone every day and they're just really a downer. But that's where you have to kind of dig deep and control the way you respond.Scott: Exactly. And when you get yourself together, the more you are in tune with your life and the more balanced you are, the more that you will start to attract. I was telling Michelle this, that when you do that, you're going to become a magnet. And people magnetize towards you that are people that love you, and people magnetize [00:20:29 who are do] people that hate you. And the responses are so different. You get people that love you, and realistically, you can't get away from them because they want more and more from you, and you get people that hate you, and they'll snub you, and walk away, or talk bad about you.Michelle: Yeah, you've kind of said, too, that when you start that positive journey in making strides for your health or trying to establish healthier habits in your lifestyle, you get people who kind of want to pull from you because they want a piece of that too. And you're a little bit stronger than they are, or you've got people who kind of… they're not so happy because it, maybe, makes them aware that they've got something that they should probably change, you know, they want to change. So, those are the people that kind of start hating on you. You know, you're going to get it both ways.Scott: And when we go places with Michelle, it's like, when she's in balance, and everything is feeling good—and that's the majority of the time, it's like, we get people that just magnetize towards her, in the stores that we go to, and they want interesting information, they want topics, they want tips. Just because we did some time on TV, they know us a little bit better. And it takes so much time out of our day sometimes, and I like to push it on through, but she magnetizes people that really and truly want part of what she has, or you see people that walk by us and kind of give us a look kind of like, “Eh, who are you?” So, it kind of feeds both ways.Michelle: Yeah. And I think having a positive attitude makes me want to engage with people as well. So—Scott: It does.Michelle: —there are those times that you tell me to just sit in the car while you run in and out. [laugh].Scott: That's right, I tell her, I say, “We only got 10 minutes, I'm going to go in here, I'm going to get this handled, and I'm going to go.” Okay because I like to say, “Hi, bye,” but I'm not wanting to overly engage because usually, I've got a time schedule to keep.Michelle: There you go. So, we've got another energy drainer. Why don't you tell us about this one?Scott: You know, this is about—Michelle: Saying yes to so much.Scott: That's right. And realistically, it's like, everybody wants to please people. So, when people want your time, when they want your volunteerism, when they want your help, we all want to say yes because we want to be a pleaser.Michelle: We want to be part of the solution.Scott: Right. We want to help people get through something. And it's so hard that realistically, you just have to stop sometime and say, “Okay. Can I really achieve this? Is this going to put me over the top? Do I really have time to do this?” And you have to say no, sometimes.Michelle: Yeah, you have to guard your time. And just remember that the opinions of others doesn't define you. And you remind me of that all the time because I want to say yes to people. I want to give. I want to help other people. But sometimes I don't reserve what I need to for my own self-growth.Scott: Exactly.Michelle: And I remember when I first started practicing it—I don't know if I'll ever master it, but I try—but I know the kids were little, and a parent asked for me to volunteer for something in a classroom, and it was the first time that I thought, “I'm going to practice saying no,” and it didn't really go over all that well. And I threw it back in her lap, I guess, and she was kind of offended, even though it was nice about it. And it's never easy. So, I think that's just an ongoing thing that I'm learning to practice. But it does; it pulls you in so many directions, and it can drain you of your energy.Scott: Oh, exactly because you'll get stressed out because you took on too much.Michelle: Yeah there are ways to say, “You know what, thank you so much for thinking of me, but I don't think that's going to work out right now.” You don't have to just do a hardcore, “No.” Or, “Heck no.” You can—Scott: Right.Michelle: —be, you know—Scott: Diplomatic.Michelle: Yeah, diplomatic. And it's very awkward at times, even being diplomatic.Scott: It is. Definitely.Michelle: I'd rather say no through text than I would face. [laugh]. So, you do. You have to guard your time. And I think that leads into our next energy drainer and that is not front-loading your day, with self-care in body, mindset, and spirit. Because we get so busy during the day and we can have all of these intentions and then they fall through and at the end of the day you think, “Well, what did I even get to do for myself?” And that can lead to resentment, more fatigue. You think, “I didn't even make any progress today.” But if we can start the beginning of the day doing some sort of self-care that—and I love to start with exercise. In an ideal world, I'd be up at 5 a.m. every day doing my gym time. Sometimes that's not very conducive, especially if I have an early morning commitment of some sort. But I do like to do that. That's one of the things that I feel like it sets those feel-good hormones, those endorphins in the right direction, and I'm able to think clearly through the day. And you, you start the day with reading, and meditating, and saying a prayer. And you're very consistent with that.Scott: But I have to be because I feel like if I don't get started off in the right boat, somewhere down the road, when the day gets overwhelming, I feel off, you know? I feel like my energy isn't there, my motivation isn't there, even just a little saddened sometimes. So, realistically, it's like, I need to take that time in the morning to start my day with who I'm going to be.Michelle: Yeah, I mean, I do think that there's a lot to that. It could be something just as simple as reading something inspirational, taking a moment to just be grateful for something, moving your body. You don't even have to go anywhere, just move for five minutes, stretch, anything like that. And then start the day with something healthy, start the day with a good hydration, something like that. It's pretty pivotal in the direction that it can take you. So, there you go; those are our energy drainers. And one of, I guess, the overlooked things that could be included in that morning routine would be making sure that you have your day planned out the night before.Scott: Yeah.Michelle: I don't know if that's an evening routine, or if that's a morning routine, but they kind of like, merge together.Scott: They do they really do because if for some reason you didn't get your clothes cleaned, you didn't prepare meals the night before, you don't have your water—I fill my water jug every night, almost every single time because I like cold water.Michelle: And I don't, and I don't like cold water. I don't fill my water jug and I end up drinking yours. [laugh].Scott: Exactly. That's what always happens, unfortunately. But those are some of the small things I put into place because I know if I do that, then the next day is going to at least start pretty well.Michelle: Yeah, exactly. So, I think that if we are mindful of these energy drainers, and we know, kind of, the impact that they can have on our lives, it just helps us to be better prepared, so that we can shift accordingly. And that doesn't say that we're going to live a life of perfection. But being mindful, that's huge.Scott: Yeah, and I think at least it helps you identify them maybe before they come, and how you're going to handle them.Michelle: Exactly. So, three tips that we want to leave our listeners with today—and we really do appreciate you listening to our insights on energy draining—that we want to leave you with: setting personal boundaries for yourself that you will and will not allow in your life. That's huge because that gives you kind of an automatic roadmap to follow.Scott: And I think one of the most important ones for me is scheduling time for yourself and holding those appointments. Don't let anybody get in your way. Don't let the kids, the dog, the cat, a client, anybody take your time because that time is valuable to your balance.Michelle: You don't have to say, “Oh, I'm getting my hair done,” or, “Oh, I'm going to take a nap,” or whatever that appointment time is with yourself, you can just say, “I'm sorry, I already have an appointment at that time.” It can be that simple. I think the third one we want to leave you with, too, is to have a saying, or an affirmation, or some sort of quote that can help you get back onto task if you feel yourself thrown off during the day. Sometimes all you need is a simple reminder to just help you refocus.Michelle: Elements of living a healthy lifestyle come in various forms. Sometimes we don't have all the answers we need, and sometimes we don't even know that we have a need until we have important discussions.Scott: That's the inspiration behind why and what we do with Totality Living Well and helping others live a life of true balance in body, mindset, and spirit.Michelle: We love hearing your comments, questions, and feedback as you navigate your own health journey. We're grateful that you've taken this time to join us. You can keep up with the latest on the podcast through Apple, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you choose to listen to podcasts.Scott: You can also follow us on Facebook or Instagram by following Totality Living Well.Michelle: And check out our website totalitylivingwell.com for other tips and customized health programs available.Scott: We'll see you next time.Michelle: Remember, keep your health front and center. It's priceless. In great health, always.

In this episode of Totality Living Well, Scott and Michelle introduce themselves and how they came to be health coaches in Knoxville, Tennessee.  Scott and Michelle began their health journeys early in life.  Scott remembers meeting Arnold Schwarzenegger and admiring his bodybuilding as much as his ballet training.  Michelle questioned everything as a kid. She wanted to figure out why her family members suffered from diabetes and heart conditions. She even questioned what lunch ladies were serving her in school, which led to some awkward conversations. Having lived in both Colorado and Tennessee, Scott and Michelle acknowledge the health gaps between Western and Southern America. The couple discuss how their love story intertwined with their health and business goals. Ebbs and flows are a part of everyone's lifestyle. When your healthy habits are right on track, Michelle says that's when real life will set you off balance. As an adult, parent, and businesswoman, she's been there and survived.  TranscriptMichelle: Welcome to the Totality Living Well podcast where we probe into the nitty-gritty aspects of health: the good, the offbeat, and even the controversial things that aren't always discussed. Whether you've had a long-standing curiosity or simply want to know more about a topic, we're here to explore the solutions and answers to empower you in body, mindset, and spirit.Scott: Hey guys, Scott and Michelle Williams here. Healthy living consultants, certified in nutrition fitness and neuromuscular massage.Michelle: We're parents, business owners, and understand the challenges that life can bring with keeping the elements of your own health on track while ensuring that the kids, parents, pets, and loved ones in your life are also taken care of with the resources they need for health and longevity.Scott: We're so glad you joined us.Michelle: Welcome listeners to the introductory Totality Living Well podcast. My name is Michelle Williams, and I am joined today by my husband Scott Williams. We are co-owners of Totality Living Well, a health and wellness company based out of Knoxville, Tennessee. And we are stepping into the podcast world to share our life experiences and expertise in health and wellness, and we are so honored that you have chosen to listen to our first episode.Scott: Thank you for joining us today. We're excited to talk a little bit about who we are and how we came about. Michelle and I met here in Knoxville about seven years ago, and we both were looking at, just, the community and basically what we felt was missing here. And basically just the concepts of health and wellness, and how people actually looked at this community and health and wellness, both coming from a different geographical area of the country. And we both looked here and said, “Wow, we could really do some great things here.”Michelle: Yeah, one of the things that we noticed, too, that the idea of health and wellness for a lot of people entailed getting a prescription filled, and then going to grab their salad at a fast-food restaurant, and maybe just doing a little bit of something here and there—mowing the yard for a little exercise. And we wanted to introduce people to a way of living that we had grown accustomed to, especially out in the West. We each came from Colorado, where it's pretty much a health mecca, but I guess we've always lived a life of health and wellness. So, Scott, why don't you just share with everybody how you got started?Scott: Yeah, when I was a young kid—I actually grew up in the Midwest, I mean Indiana, and up there was meat and potato country. They did three vegetables and boiled them to death and that was about it. But once I moved out to Colorado, I saw just a little bit more about how to treat your body, really. And then I got an opportunity. My father took me to an early contest of Arnold Schwarzenegger in Columbus, Ohio. So, I got to meet Arnold initially and was very inspired by him. But then also for people that are of our age range, I also got to meet a gentleman named Jack LaLanne. And Jack LaLanne was an icon of health wellness in the early 1900s, and he was just very inspiring. And the guy was probably in his 80s at that point in time, was strong as a house. And he just gave me advice, and he said, basically when it came to nutrition, he said he made it and he said if it came in packages, he didn't buy it. It was fruits and vegetables, if he wanted pasta, he made his own pasta, if he wanted bread, he made his own bread. He said, “You've got to stay away from the additives that are out there.” And he says that's the way for him on how he was able to keep himself in such a great condition of health and wellness. Which, you know, it went back for me as a young teenager, and I was so inspired by that. I was like, okay, right away, I went home, and it's like, I'm going to have better eating habits, I'm going to hit the gym, I'm going to exercise, I'm going to take care of myself, and just continue that the way that was, basically. And I just really got inspired by that. And I decided I wanted to help others as well.Michelle: So, Jack LaLanne asked you a question when he first met you, that actually was a life-changing question. And I ask that, a lot, of my first-time clients, too, and that question was, “How frequently do you poop, son?” [laughs].Scott: [laughs]. Exactly. And it's all about the fact is when Jack, his motto was when you ate, you should go to the bathroom. You should poop within 15 to 20 minutes after every time you eat. And, basically, if you're not doing that, then your system is not working properly.Michelle: Yeah and I think so many people, just when it comes to digestion like that, that's something that they don't really even address or think about the frequency. So, the way you eat and the way you move, all of that not only affects your digestion for the better but it also, it helps with cellular turnover and all of that. And that's just—it all fits together, and I think you saw that at an early age.Scott: Yeah, definitely. It changed my life in the way I was doing things, was before I was eating fast food, I was going out, I was doing stuff like that, and probably I didn't have very good bowel movements at that point in time. But once I got on a health train, but more vegetables in my life, and more fruits, and more things that—it made me feel so much better energetically. And it also made me just perform better as a kid. I could think better in school, I could perform better in sports. It just all around made me a better person in that way.Michelle: And then you got to meet Arnold again after you started walking that healthy lifestyle. So, tell us a little bit about that.Scott: Yeah, I mean, I got to meet Arnold a second time there. And Arnold was just such an inspiration because even though he was a bodybuilder, and everybody knew him for his muscle mass, he still was iconic because he was doing things that people didn't even think about. Arnold did ballet. And if you can believe the fact that a gentleman that size actually did ballet because, at that point in time, they didn't have any formal yoga, they didn't have a lot of formal stretching ideas. But he did ballet, which opened his body up, to be able to keep him injury free, to keep him flexible, and to be able to train harder and still care for his body in that way.Michelle: It's almost like a lot of those principles and that line of thinking is starting to come around and be more widely received, and even taught now, which is kind of cool because both of those guys were just so iconic and before their time. They just set the tone in the bar for health and wellness.Michelle: It's really cool that that all led to your next steps. And that's how you got started with your education.Scott: Yeah, so I guess basically, from that point on, I just knew that I wanted to help people. I dabbled in a couple different types of jobs, and things just weren't right for me. So, I basically knew that through personal training, through nutritional consulting, and then also 10 years, 15 years later, I went on and did neuromuscular massage work and trained in that because I started seeing the benefits of helping people that had injuries, helping people stay away from injuries, and helping people get through pain that they didn't even know they had, and how they could take that and get that out of their lives so that they actually could physically move because people would say, “I just can't exercise because my back hurts too bad.” “I can't exercise because I've got this bad neck.” But if you found a way to actually help people change that, that didn't take any effort, necessarily, for them, except for to lay on the table and actually get work done on them, and then to find out what the possibilities were. And then that always opened the door for me, too. People will say, “Well, how should I eat?” Or, “How many days a week, do you think I need to exercise?” So, basically, we could get them healthy on the table, we could change the mindset that they had. And then they start inching into interest in other realms of taking care of themselves.Michelle: And then at one point, you started helping people move, and you had this cool idea. Tell us a little bit about what you did.Scott: Yeah, so actually, um, when I was a young teenager, I decided that I was tired of the large gym scenes and all the hype about it—because all they wanted to do in the gyms were sell memberships, sell memberships, and then hope people didn't show up. Because if people didn't show up, they could keep selling memberships. If everybody showed up, they would be over-occupancy. So, I thought about it and I was talking to one of my clients at the time, and I said, “I got this great idea.” And she was a really sweet lady. She was an attorney, I think, in her probably late 50s. I had helped her—when she came to me she had a hard time lifting things. Her and her husband—I mean, her husband was like a big marathoner and she was having a hard time keeping up with him. And basically, I got her to the point where she was curling 25-pound dumbbells, and she was able to go on hikes with her husband at the end of the day and keep up with him. And so she was so excited that she wanted to help me in any way possible. So, I said, “Okay, this is my idea.” So, she said, “You know what? Come see my banker.” So, what I did in the early 90s, basically, was I started a mobile gym. So, I took a 35-foot school bus, renovated it, put equipment into it, stereo system, lights, everything you could do, and then I rolled around to businesses and homes, and I trained people in the Denver Metro area.Michelle: I love that story and I think just—I love your heart too. Of course, I'm married to you, but you've got a great heart. And then after you did that little journey with the bus, I like what you did with the bus.Scott: Well, so at that point time, when I decided to park the bus—the hard thing about the bus was the metro area was getting too busy, it was hard to get around, and truly, I needed a crew of buses. I needed five to be around different places at different locations for when people needed to be trained. So, I decided to park that situation and I got out of it, and actually got myself outdoors a little bit more. So, while I was sitting on this bus, I didn't know what to do, I thought I bought—I tried to sell it, nobody was really that interested in it. And then someone had called me up and they said, “Hey, we're really interested in your bus. We saw it.” That thing. And so basically, they came over to look at it and ended up being a family. And they were basically, like, living out of a tent. And they wanted to purchase the bus so they could actually live out of it.Michelle: I love it. And I love how your heart speaks through all of that. And I think that's part of the reason that we started working together, too. We met in Knoxville, Tennessee, after coming out here from Colorado, and you were trying to get your business up and running, and my professional background for so many years had been in marketing. And after we had become friends, I said, “Hey, let me just try pitching you to a couple of these TV stations and see what happens.” I said, “But the first thing that we need to do is, I want you to start with one word that we're going to base your whole media campaign on, your publicity.” And I said, “Take a few days, that's all you got to do.” And because this is an important word, and we need to really think carefully about that. And you said, “I don't have to think. I know my word.” I said, “What is that word?” You said, “Integrity.” I think I fell in love with you that day. [laughs]. I was like this guy really not only walks this walk, but he's got heart behind it. So, it was pretty easy to fall in love with you after that, and to start a business, and sharing our stories together and how they paralleled.Scott: You know, and I think that it was a great experience that we fell in love at that point in time. And by talking to you, I want you to tell them a little bit about your story and what drew you into health and wellness.Michelle: Okay, so I am 52. And so back in the '70s, we did not have internet, we did not have all of this immediate access to information. We had to go to the library and look things up or read the encyclopedias, and what you got from those encyclopedias, that was what you're going to get. And I was always interested in healthy eating just from a young age and noticed that a lot of my relatives kept coming down with the same types of illnesses, diabetes, gallbladder problems, heart disease, high cholesterol. Just, you name it and it was just kind of the norm. And I started thinking, “Why? Why does everybody get that when they get older?” And it was my maternal grandmother who came down with gallbladder disease. And I thought, “Well, how does that happen? What does the gallbladder do?” So, I was seven and started researching what the gallbladder did. And I learned that it metabolizes fats. And then I started looking at what we had in our foods in the way of fats, and then how we kind of started eating a lot of fats with just everything we did, a lot of processed foods. And by the time I was in fourth grade, I thought, “Well, what's it going to be like if I take 30 days, and go without sugar?” Just 30 days, no sugar at all. And then at the end of that 30 days, just binge on sugar, and go to McDonald's, and have a Sprite, and have a Big Mac, and an apple pie, or an ice cream, or anything like that. And my mom thought it was kind of funny. And so I started reading the labels. And that became not so funny to her because I was questioning everything. And then at school—I was in fourth grade—started asking the lunch ladies about what kind of sugar was in their food and nobody could tell me so I started boycotting school food. And it really wasn't funny when the principal called to meet with my mom because nobody else wanted to eat school lunch. And so that was that weird time period where everybody was like, “I want to be a movie star. I want to be a nurse, I want to be a teacher. I want to be—” anything but a nutritionist and I wanted to be a nutritionist. So, it was a fun thing for me and my grandfather. After he retired from the military, he had a huge garden in Tennessee—or in  Mississippi, rather. So, I would help him with that big garden and I learned a lot about organic gardening, which is still a big passion today with our garden, that you get to till for me every year.Scott: Of course I do.Michelle: You love me. [laughs].Scott: I do love you. That's the reason I do it.Michelle: But we do grow some superfoods. And so anyway, that was the beginning of that. And then fast forward to when I could go to college. And I did get a scholarship to a great school that had a great nutrition program. I was 17, and I chose communication of all things. But it was always a passion of mine and came back to it full circle. I now have all of the certifications in that. And I was really interested in youth nutrition when the boys were first born, and wanted to get them off to a good start. So, that was the first big interest and the first certification that I had to help them. And you and I started talking, and we realized that all generations needed good nutrition. And then I also had just my passion, hobby of running and exercising, and then I just fell in love with weight training after I met you. So, there's our story.Scott: And that's great. It's one of those things that you just evolve through life, and you really and truly grow, and you add more tools to the toolbox as you go along. And that's the nice thing about it, being a little bit more of a seasoned professional in this business is, the more people you touch and the more clients that you have, the more challenges you've seen, and the more things that you can teach them on how to apply those challenges. And all of us have challenges in life. Even today, we have our own challenges. But you have to find and look at what types of things will actually help you. And there's a lot of professionals out there, and they'll say, “You just follow my checklist. You do this, this, and this. You do it this way and you're going to have the perfect body, you're going to have the perfect life, you're going to have the perfect kids, you're going to have the perfect job.” But realistically, that doesn't work that way. Nobody out there has that perfection, and that might have worked for one individual, but that doesn't work for other people, and so you just cannot follow a standard out there. And so those are some of the things that we want to help dive into.Michelle: Yeah. And we really do take a comprehensive approach to health and wellness. And it's more than just your body which, that's a lot of what brought us into our health journey was just the interest in how movement, and nutrition, and flexibility, and all of that adds together. But then there's so much more to health. And the component of your mindset, and what you tell yourself, and the way you think, and then also your spirit. And that's what differentiates us from animals, and I think a lot of times that's overlooked with people looking at a comprehensive health and wellness program. So, when we started Totality, we said that it's going to be Totality Living Well, in body, mindset, and spirit. So, in this podcast that we are about to pursue, we're excited to just delve into all kinds of topics that maybe aren't always first and foremost in the media, or social media, or in the articles. And we're going to look at some things that can be practical in helping people move along. And I know that as a certified youth nutrition specialist, there have been many, many days with our now grown—almost grown sons who are 18 and 16, where I was like, “Do I have to really feed them today? [laughs]. It's kind of a pain. I'm getting tired of this.” And so, as parents and as business owners, we understand the challenges, and we understand real life, and we're not going to try to act like we know it all because we don't, and we are looking forward to talking with experts in different areas of health and learning from them, but then also sharing what we have learned with our listeners, and with the goal of just empowering all of you in your health journey, so you can live a quality life.Scott: And truly, that's what it's about. It's really at the end of the day, when people talk about what they want to do, so many people say, “I'm going to work hard for 30 years, 40 years, and then when I retire, everything's going to be great.” Well, you know, it really depends on what you do when you take care of yourself along the way because you can't wait until you're 55, 60 years old to start taking care of yourself. Because you'll realize the fact that, “Oh, wow, this isn't what I remember.”Michelle: Yeah. And that's one of the first things that I tell my clients. Strap in because you're about to go into a ride of your life. As soon as you commit to really taking the reins on your health, real life is going to happen like never before. And that's going to be anything from financial issues, to relationship issues, to illness. I mean, it can be anything. So, it's about walking mindfully through all of the hurdles and the challenges. And so I'm really excited about some of the things that we've got in store.Scott: I am too. And we're going to look at it from both angles because Michelle works a lot with females; I work a lot with males. And just getting a feel for what both people struggle with throughout life, and their tug of war, I would say, between taking care of themselves and taking care of their family.Michelle: Yeah. And one of the things that we want to do with our podcast, each time that we have one, is to leave our listeners with three tips. And so we started brainstorming, what could we do in this introductory podcast for three tips?And the first one is to practice mindfulness in your life with your health, but always remembering that your health is not just about your body alone. It is the body, mindset, and spirit. And I think when you do take that comprehensive view of your health, it really opens your eyes to what you can be doing for yourself.Scott: And our second step is really about self-care. It's vital. In order to take care of others, you got to take care of yourself first because if you put yourself on the back burner all the time, between your kids, your job, your husband, anything, you're going to wear yourself down. And when you wear yourself down, you're not good for anybody else.Michelle: Yeah. And then the third one, too, it's just, don't overcomplicate the journey. And I think that that comes when we do listen to so many plans that have been pre-mapped out for us. It's just like, “I've got to execute this perfectly, or it's a wash.” And it's about ebbing and flowing, and simplifying it, and just focusing on a couple of things. So, I'm very excited about some of the things that we're going to be introducing to our listeners.And we just want to thank you so much for taking the time to learn who we are and what we stand for. And we invite you to tune into our next podcast where we're going to be expanding upon the three tips that we just mentioned, and give you some valuable insights that we've discovered as health professionals in walking our lives of health.Michelle: Elements of living a healthy lifestyle come in various forms. Sometimes we don't have all the answers we need, and sometimes we don't even know that we have a need until we have important discussions.Scott: That's the inspiration behind why and what we do with Totality Living Well and helping others live a life of true balance in body, mindset, and spirit.Michelle: We love hearing your comments, questions, and feedback as you navigate your own health journey. We're grateful that you've taken this time to join us. You can keep up with the latest on the podcast through Apple, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you choose to listen to podcasts.Scott: You can also follow us on Facebook or Instagram by following Totality Living Well.Michelle: And check out our website totalitylivingwell.com for other tips and customized health programs available.Scott: We'll see you next time.Michelle: Remember, keep your health front and center. It's priceless. In great health, always.

Learn More About The Content Discussed...No Boss Talk:https://nobosstalk.comMichelle Cunningham Website:https://MichelleCunninghamOnline.comMichelle’s Instagram:@directsalesmichelleThe Camp Elevate Facebook Group:hereBeth’s Instagram:@bethholdengravesBeth’s website:https://www.bethholdengraves.comProfit HER Way Course:https://www.bethholdengraves.com/profitKeynotes discussed:She's earned a six figure income consistently and led a network marketing team to over eight figures in sales, hosting home parties and Facebook parties. (01:31)I'm tired of saying I'm shy. Yes, you're shy, but don't say that to yourself. Like shy is just another word for insecure.(07:21)Then all of a sudden introvert Michelle who went from being shy to being bold is like we've got a system and it's working. So how did that look?(10:52)All I learned is change your story, make it super inspirational and then at the end give them two options.(13:14)I want to talk about owning your awesome, and that when someone owns their story, and someone has confidence, and it takes time.(16:10)When Did It Air...January 06, 2020Episode Transcript...Beth:Welcome to ‘You’re Not the Boss of Me’. If you are determined to break glass ceilings and build it your way, this show is for you. I’m your host Beth Graves and I am obsessed with helping you to not just dream it, but make the plan, connect the dots and create what you crave. Are you ready? Let’s get started.Hello. Hello and welcome to episode number 19. And Happy New Year, If you're listening to this in real time. So today I am so excited because I have been stalking Michelle Cunningham. She is my guest and you are going to love her Own Your Awesome. And you will walk away, literally fired up like pulling your car over to the side of the road and getting started taking action after this podcast. So let me tell you a little bit about Michelle and then we'll bring her on. She teaches network marketers around the world to successfully build their business through Facebook parties, home parties, and using the power of video. So after you see this wonder woman on YouTube, you are going to see the power and the impact. She's called the queen of video branding for direct sellers and teaches you to Own Your Awesome to have a massive impact for success. She's been involved in the industry for 16 years. She's earned a six figure income consistently and led a network marketing team to over eight figures in sales, hosting home parties and Facebook parties. So she's playful. She's on YouTube. She's so much fun. She's made an impact with thousands and thousands and thousands of network marketers. And so here she is. Let's talk to Michelle Cunningham.So, Hey everyone. I am so excited because I have been stalking. She's my new best friend. She doesn't know it yet. I sent her like a half a heart necklace. Her name is Michelle Cunningham and I literally have been watching her for months and months and months, obsessing over her content, her energy, her YouTube channel. And so, you know, I asked for everything so I thought, I'm just going to ask Michelle, she's super famous if she would hop on this podcast to help us hear more about how she's built her business in direct sales and thousands of others with her quirky, honest, but deliberate presence on YouTube and on social media, and just being an awesome pink princess. So hello Michelle!Michelle:Hi. That was quite the introduction.Beth:Well you didn't know like I always like to admit that I'm stalking someone because it's just weird if you don't, right?Michelle:Yeah, well I stalk people too so I totally get it.Beth:I know I just, I study, I love to study success and so I know that we have some people that may not have been introduced to you yet and now they are. And I'm super excited because after meeting you and talking with you, and we're going to give you guys this offer at the end, is I'm going to do the YouTube thing this year, and I have like seriously dark videos that are sharing my sticky note challenge and you've inspired me. So can you give us a little bit of history? I know that for those of you that, you know I said it on the intro, but give us the real version. How did you get started? When did you start realizing that the video presence was really a thing to build the business? So give us the scoop. Who are you? What do you do? Yeah, all that jazz.MichelleAll right, well I'll give you the quick background because I feel like a background is really important. I grew up incredibly poor. My mom was a single mom so I came from very little. I had two brothers and myself and everything I've ever had for in life I've had to pay for on my own. And so I grew up always wanting to be like the kids who just had like Pantene shampoo and fresh apples. So just to put it in perspective, like where I live now and what my life is like is not what I grew up as. And so I'm very thankful for life, the journey. But I'm also, it's what drove me. It was realizing like, I don't want to have a moldy basement and like snakes in my basement and have a house, I'm embarrassed by. I want to have more and so...I went to college, paid my way through college, and then entered direct sales into my life. I got my first job as a pharmaceutical sales rep and then I landed at an event, and it was a direct sales event. My coworker's wife invited me and I'm there in this hotel room, the holiday Inn, and there's a lady in the room claiming to make six figures. Another one's a millionaire, another one's driving a free car. And I'm like, dude, this is either a fantastic opportunity or this is a scam. So I went home and I told my mom at 23 years old, and she goes, Oh yeah, honey, a hundred percent scam. Do not get involved. I was not doing it. And then a week later I remembered that I was 23 and at 23 you don't listen to your mom. So I signed up anyway. And that was 16 years ago, 17 years ago.And so when I joined, there was no text message. There was no Facebook. And so they said, how you're going to build your business, honey, 23 year old, you're going to go up to strangers in parking lots, and like, Oh, that's horrifying. People doing that. Like I'm an introvert, I don't like to bother you. I don't like to be in people's way. It's just who I am. I want everyone to like me. That's just my personality, right? So the idea of approaching a stranger and having them yell at me was like my worst nightmare. And so I, for the next six years, did not tell anyone. I was involved in network marketing like for six years. But in that six years I studied it. I looked up ideas, I ordered my full inventory, I was ready to go, but I did nothing for six years. I think I held like a party or two.Beth:Wait, wait, wait, wait. I gotta repeat that. You guys six years of studying. And so many people are like, Oh, I just, I mean I was that person, Michelle, that I bought every kit, signed up for a billion things and didn't study, didn't do a thing until, you know, when I launched the current business that I'm in. But I didn't know it was six years. What made you keep holding on?Michelle:Yeah, it's just a fantastic part of the story. And it always, when I'm sharing in front of an audience, they're like, you gave me hope. Because I've been, you know, 5 years, I haven't started. I'm like, Oh you're fine, you're actually ahead of me. So for six years I loved the dream of it, but I was too shy and too nervous to approach people, you know? And I was like, but I loved it. But I was like, but I can't. And so it was self talk, this negative self talk that I had, that I don't want to bother people. I don't want to, you know. And, in that six years I tried, it's not like I did nothing. It's like I'd study an idea and then I call my recruiter. I'm like, maybe let's do your mall thing. You said we could do a scavenger hunt.Then we'd go do the mall thing. And so we'd go up to people and I actually met a lady who said, Oh my gosh, your sell for that company? I would love to host a party with you. And I'm like, really? Okay. But I got home and I was too nervous to call her. Talk about, this is not going to work. And I called her the day before the party to confirm because I was nervous. But she was like, I never heard from you. What would make you think I am going to host a party with you? And I was like, you're right. Okay, bye. So little like mouse Michelle. One day I made a decision at 29 I was fed up enough with my corporate job and I think that's when you see someone make a big change where I was like, you know what, I'm tired of being a mouse.I'm tired of saying I'm shy. Yes, you're shy, but don't say that to yourself. Like shy is just another word for insecure. There's all of these things. I was telling myself they were not serving me and I thought, you know what? What makes me different from that girl over there that's wildly confident? She just acts confident. Why don't I just start doing that? Why don't I just like stop caring and let's just like do this? Because I just made that very conscious decision. And it was January, 2009 yeah, 2009, and I went online and I found someone that worked for the company that I had signed up with. She was not my recruiter, but they have a we'll help you no matter what thing. So she, when I met her, what was amazing about this lady is, she changed my life forever because when I met her, she's 4ft 11in, tiny. She wears short, spiky hair. She doesn't wear a ton of makeup. She's not loud. She's not bold. She's not crazy. She suffers from social anxiety disorder. She fainted at her first home party.Yes, And over three weeks. Yeah. You're like, that doesn't sound like a good mentor. But see, she earned over $3 million in her career and was driving the top level car. And I was like, Oh, okay, so you're a little broken. I'm a little broken. If you can do this, maybe I could do this. And so it was in meeting her, then I met someone that wasn't perfect. Sometimes you meet people in this industry and they're perfect and they talk perfect and they smile and perfect and you're like, that's scary and weird. So she was normal. And so she taught me her system. She said, if you don't want to call people then just text people, you know, just do whatever it's going to work for you. Just find a way. And I was like, wait, I can do that. And so I actually started texting people, in that first month I made $1,000 not knowing what I was doing.Six months later, I made over $5,000, built a team of 50. A few months after that I had earned a car. That month I earned another free insurance, and then earned another car a few months later. And then four years later I learned a system that taught me how to recruit like crazy. And I taught that to my team and we went from a hundred people on my team to over a thousand and it changed my life forever. We became an eight figure sales team. My team did over eight figures in sales and just crazy, crazy. But it's just crazy to think that for that long I struggled, but it was just one day to saying, you know what? I'm fed up enough. We're just going to like make this work. Yeah. So that was the beginning.Beth:Well, and okay, a couple of things that I love is, you notice that she wasn't perfect and I think that that just like made my face light up. Even though we're on a podcast, you can't see it, because that's what I think that vulnerability of you on video is. You're the real deal in showing up and saying, we may not be perfect. And I say that all the time, is like I built my business with sticky notes because I couldn't figure out how to use the Excel spreadsheet, and I've got like, my drunk uncle was driving me around when I was trying to use systems. And you also said find what works for you but have some way that you are booking, like in your case, booking the parties, booking the shows, booking the online events. So you said something to that. I know everyone was like yeah, pulling over to the side of the road, getting out their notes on their phone. You said you developed a system that worked for your team. Do you want to talk a little bit about that? Because that's a Renegade. You are in a company that had been around forever, like the beginning of time. Everyone knew that person that had earned that car in town and then all of a sudden introvert Michelle who went from being shy to being bold is like we've got a system and it's working. So how did that look? Can you share a little bit of what that time looked like? And what you guys all did?Michelle:Absolutely. So that fourth year I had been sitting at a team of about a hundred. I was pretty consistently making about $5,000 a month and I heard a speaker that year that said, or at an event. And the one thing that I took away, she said, Hey guys, I believe that while you're on this earth you should make as much money as humanly possible. And I was like, wait, where's she gonna go with this? I don't know if that, you know, the the poor girl in me. It was like, I don't want to, I don't know if I want to hear this...because I believe that you should live completely debt free. And I was like, okay, I can get on board with that. And then I also believe you should have tons of savings for your future. I said okay, I like that you said. And I then believe you should live below your means.I do. I like to shop at target and resale shop. And you should give back frequently, generously, and anonymously. And that last line of frequently, generously and anonymously, I said to myself, Michelle, you need to step up your game. You could be helping so many more people right now. You have enough to provide for you and your family. How many more humans could you help if you decide to step up your game because the fact that you got to where you are, what if we did that same amount of crazy work like over and over and over again. And I thought, Hmm, I need it. I need to find something. And it was like a God thing. I was on Facebook that night and this cute little blonde appeared on my screen and it was a Facebook ad and she was just pretty, I just clicked on her and I said, let me see what she's all about, cute little blonde thing. And it was Sarah Robbins from Rodan and Fields, the number one seller for Rodan and Fields, and she's making like $1 million a month. I mean, it's just like something, or million dollars. I don't, it's something so insane that you're like, okay, let me learn from you a little human. So I clicked on that.Beth:I love, Love you to learn from you little human. I love it.Michelle:Yes literally, because she was just a little thumbnail is what I mean. She was a little person on my screen. I clicked on the little human and I ordered her book, which is How to Rock Your Network Marketing Business.Beth:That was my first book! I bought too! Oh my gosh, this is crazy. Yeah, that's it. It's tattered and it's highlighted and every, yes, yes, yes. Okay, keep going. I love it.Michelle:So I read the book and all I learned, you don't have to go read the book, I'll just tell you what it is. All I learned is change your story, make it super inspirational and then at the end give them two options. You can join my team today, if you decide not to do that, you can take home products. Those were two things I was missing. I was missing the inspirational story. I had a ho hum story. It was kind of inspirational but not really. So I changed my story to be like, I was the number one person in all of my company. I Owned My Awesome. So I made it like I was in a play with this amazing story and I'm glad to share it if you wanna hear how I roll it out. But yeah, that story. And then at the end I said option one, join my team.Oh, and that's the best deal of all. And then if you decide not to do that, you can take home products. And I usually was just selling product, product, product. And then after I would invite them to meet for coffee after they liked the product. This whole long three week process, which sort of was effective, but I was like, wait, if I could sign people up on the spot. And so I rolled this out for the first time in March, 2000 and gosh, I don't remember what year. But it was, I don't know, six years ago. And I roll this out and my first appointment, I had a lady over to my house, tried the product, I did my arrogance story at the beginning and it was, it was like arrogant, but I was doing what I was reading in the book and I had practiced it all day. And at the end she goes, okay. And I give her options. She goes, okay, so here's what I've decided. I'd like to join your team and I'd like to buy the whole skin care system.And I was like, ah, what the heck just happened? I'm like, that's not definitely supposed to happen. I'm like, you do want it? Yeah. And in my head I'm like, just Michelle, write it up, sign her up, sell her the thing, just do it. So I do. And she goes home inspired, which is what was different. She went home inspired and she told her husband about this inspirational woman that lived a few towns over that was on fire. It was, you know, changing your life. And the next day she called, my husband wants me to get the whole package. He wants me to get started now, because he was inspired. I had never had someone do that before. And it was in that moment that I believe like God was knocking on my head like Michelle, do more of that be loud, because by you being loud and you being proud, you can impact people's lives, you can change their financial situation.And so I had to stop being introverted Michelle and say, okay, I need to be awesome because by me being awesome, I can impact lives. And so the next lady came over that day with her husband and at the end her husband goes, yeah, you should just sign up. And so she joined my team that month. Following that system, I recruited 22 reps personally and my team followed the same system and they recruited another 20. So in one month we brought in 42 new reps to my team, of like a hundred, that's sitting at a hundred for four years. And I was like, that was awesome. Let's do that again. And so we did, we did it again, did it again. And that year I earned the top level car. We had five people become the top 1% of the company. I mean everything changed, right? I went to London that year. I mean just everything, massive movement because of a tiny little shift Owning Our Awesome lead with the opportunity to default to the products. It was such a simple idea. Yet it made such an impact.Beth:I was like, I have chills because so many times that I want to talk about Owning Your Awesome. And that when someone owns their story, and someone has confidence, and it takes time. Those of you that are listening today and you're thinking, but I haven't had the success yet. I don't have that voice that Michelle has or that Beth has. You can be that person, and there's visualization, and seeing yourself on that stage, and there's creating that story that allows you to Own Your Awesome. So I think you might be able to walk us through, if someone wants to walk away from this podcast and Own They're Awesome, and they're being coached by you. what would you tell them?Michelle:I would say to them, and I said this in my group the other day. I said, guys, what is the most you've ever sold at one party or in one day? What is the dollar amount? One girl wrote $1600 and another girl wrote $300 another girl wrote $800, and I said, do you have any idea that the average person out there, that an extra $200 a month would dramatically change their financial situation? Like do you have any idea? And the fact that you can host the party or you can be in front of humans and then two hours of your time you can make $200? That is mind blowing to most humans. That is literally mind blowing. And so if you have a story like that, like in the chat when I shared this, girls were like, Oh yeah, I made $800 in two hours. I'm like, you should be at the every appointment. Yeah, like hanging from the roof, swinging on a Tarzan rope saying, guys, I'm a big deal!I made $800 dollars, I made $400 in two hours. Whatever it is, that is such a huge story. And so putting that dollar amount into your story can make such a huge impact and can really inspire someone. So I always tell people, throw a dollar amount in there. What did you do in a two hour time span or in a day time span, one week I made this money, whatever it is, put your marketing hat on. And you know, as women, we're taught to not be arrogant, but I would say, no, no, this is Owning Your Awesome, and this is going to change lives. So put that away, the arrogance part of it and just Own Your Awesome and share those stories.Beth:And I just had this vision, because I've talked Michelle into being at real life camp. We're going to have a Tarzan rope and we are going to do an Own Your Awesome activity. We're swinging from the rope. I mean I think we should have one in our offices. I love it. Okay. So we're at this point of your business, you're teaching women to own their stories, to lead with the business, to really be real about what's happening in the direct selling network marketing industry. And that was what I needed to know for me to finally say yes and go all in what was possible and why not me? So you've got this team and you're rolling and a lot of what you were doing because of your business was a party plan business. And then you transitioned to a lot of online coaching, training and parties.Can you talk about that transition for those people that might not have the opportunity? And I always, I want to preface this, you guys, you always have the opportunity to be in a person's living room. And I know that we see a lot of things that say, build online. Never leave your house, never talk to your neighbor. But I will always tell you to earn multiple seven figures. I was willing, I wanted to be connecting with that neighbor because I know that in person and online sharing what Michelle just shared, swinging from the Tarzan rope, changing lives is in person. It's online, it's everywhere. If you are passionate, right Michelle?Michelle:It's 100%, and I built so much in my business in person, you know, then I did transition. I did a lot online. I had a lot of success online. But I, most of my clients, all that reorder from, it's all mostly in person. Yes I do get people that find me on YouTube and stuff like that. But it started, and I yes, I 100% agree with you in person. So great. And it's so good for introverts like me to be in front of people because if I'm not in front of people, I find for me it's like a muscle, I can get just quiet and not really want to be around people. And so for me, I kind of force myself to be in front of people to learn human interaction. Because I just sometimes, I just want to be home. I just want to do my thing. So getting out and challenging yourself will make you a more confident person. That's what I found and it brought me success.Beth:Well and I say to people, if I told you that your income would double, triple, that you would impact your family's life, be able to impact the lives of others because you were willing to go to that event, to go and meet with that one person. I remember early in my career, we had had a tough summer and I was tired and I was supposed to get on an airplane and go to Vegas and there was a team growing there and I made it. I think that was when I saw a rising leader, I would get on an airplane and go and meet that person in person, meet their friends, help with the event. It was an investment I was willing to make and I almost canceled this event. I thought, Ugh, I don't really want to fly that. And then my husband said, they are responsible for the money that you're making, your personal actions are, but this team is waiting for you.And I have to say, Michelle, I heard a story at that event from one of the promoters on my team and I journaled about it. And it was how the product had helped her overcome grief. And she shared with me how much she wanted to tell me that in person. And I literally said, I will never miss the opportunity to be in front of people. And it has been what drives me. So let's fast forward, because we're now quite a few years later and now you're this YouTube sensation. You've got this following that is like crazy cult like. You needed to get your systems into the hands of many. You are called to do that. So how did it go from your team to worldwide people just finding you and saying, Michelle, give me what you've got. How did you make that transition and how does your business look today?Michelle:So, it's such a great question because it wasn't ever my intention. I believe that God had a hand in this. Like there's no other good explanation and you know, depending on what your beliefs are, the universe whatever. But literally, six years ago, as an introvert, I said I'm going to start a YouTube channel. Why? Because at that time I was a little bored with my business. So you know how you have a month where you're like, I just feel bored. What can I do in my spare time? I was bored. My son was like three, so I wasn't exhausted and I think it was pregnant, like I'm going to start a little YouTube channel. Or maybe it was right before I started to get pregnant with the next one. And so I have a little, you know, I had downtime, and I don't like downtime.I don't like to watch movies. I get bored, I like to work. And so I'll start a YouTube channel, I'll just make a video. And initially I was like, I don't know what I'll make it about. Maybe I'll make it about organizing. And they made a few videos. That channel still exists. It has 900 followers. I made eight videos about organizing. It's the stupidest videos ever because I don't like organizing, not like I have a very organized office, but my house, you know it's not. So it was funny though, I was making that channel and it stressed me out cause I had to clean before I filmed, and then I was like this isn't my jam. And then one day I was like, but I really like to talk about network marketing and direct sales. Why don't I just do that?Until I started to put out what I was doing. I was just sharing my tips and I could not believe it, but people were like messaging me at 3:00 AM in the morning, and my inbox saying, Michelle, your video just totally changed my life. It changed my business. I love you forever. Oh my gosh, you're so amazing. Do you have more stuff? And I was like, I'll make more videos, I'll make some more. And I just literally for six years, I just kept putting out new videos. I tried to aim for once a week putting out a video, and that was my goal, and I didn't always hit it. I mean, you know, it was sometimes two weeks or three weeks, but I just tried to put out content. Okay. I did not think anything else beyond that. Never thought it would ever turn into else. Well, crazy.But I got a call from a company, they said, Hey Michelle, we found you on YouTube. Can you come and train our sales force or a brand new startup network marketing company? I was like, Whoa, that's awesome. And I was like, sure. And they're like, how much is your fee? I said to my husband, how much? He's like, just say something outrageous. I'm like, well, I wouldn't go there for, I'll say $2,500.00. He's like, yeah, just say that. I said that. And they said, sure. And I was like, Oh, my word, this is awesome. Right? So, say that, go and speak to the company. And a few weeks before I go, they said, Michelle, do you have any training materials? We'd like to purchase your training materials? And I was like, purchase, like I just do free training.What's this purchase stuff? Okay, yeah, I'll make a CD. So I literally went into my son's bedroom. I don't know why, that's where I recorded it. I just remember it must have been quiet in there. But I recorded my first training. It was how to generate leads and then I recorded another one, how to host a home party, how to recruit like crazy, all my secrets on three CDs and I had some artwork made and I got a thousand of them printed. And those have gone on to sell. I think 7,000 of the lead generation have been sold, you know, just crazy numbers. But it all started with that little thing and I was like, Oh, I could sell something. That's interesting. And so then, this January I decided to start running Facebook ads. I was like, maybe these could help more people.So I started to run Facebook ads and then we started to sell like a really lot of them and I was like, well maybe I could make a course. So this new business of mine just kind of started this year where it was like half CDs, but maybe I'll do some courses. So you know, I host Facebook live parties. My first one I ever hosted, we recruited 20 people in 45 minutes and we sold over $20,000 as a team. And everyone was asking me how I did that. I said, I'll make a little course about it called Mastering the LIVES. I made this course and put it out there. And I realized at that moment that when that course launched, I realized that God had said to me, Michelle, your calls are your next level, like I know that I gave you the success in network marketing but now you are called to something bigger.And I like pushed back for 10 months. I did. I said, you know what? No, I'm just, I'll just keep doing both. And I was doing both and trying to manage team and then building courses and, and it was a lot, but I just was like, no, I would go into the top of network marketing. That's what I'm doing. And he's like, but you don't understand. I've given you like literally seven times the income than this other thing. What are you doing? And so I had to honor that and say, you know what? I think you're right. I think I love training people. I love making videos. I love changing lives. I just want to do that. And I have literally like, that's all I want to do. And I made the very difficult decision to leave a team of a thousand reps, eight figures, sales team.Like, I mean, people are like, have you lost your mind? I'm like, well no. I mean it sounds silly that you would leave something this big, but I grew something that was infinitely bigger that required less of my energy. That 100% filled my cup. Yeah. And brought me 100% joy. And I live a life now that I'm like, this is my dream. I'm with my kids all the time. I make videos, I change lives and I absolutely love it and I never thought any of that would happen. But I will tell you, I have, I talked about this with Beth and she'll reveal, but I've got something coming out that reveals how I use video, and not knowing, I just did it to be nice. But that video changed my life forever, and my financial situation forever. And I now am so passionate about showing other people the power of video. You just put out free content, you help people and you accidentally make a following. It was all an accident, but it was a pretty awesome accident that happened to me and I want to show people how to accidentally do what I've done because it's awesome.Beth: I love it. And so when I look back at give back frequently, generously, and anonymously, you are not, you know, God's knocking on your head saying, look, we need to impact more people so that we can make this, not just you giving back in big ways, but teaching others to give back in big ways. The other thing I love Michelle is, you went to the top, you learned to lead, you learned what the frustration was of your people. So that, as a mentor and a coach, like you waited to coach until you had basically done it all and said, okay, I'm called to do more to impact more. And you did show up in my feed on a Facebook ad and I saw the pink office of yours. And I was like, who is this? Who is this? She's so darn cute. Who is this little person? I need to learn from her! Who is this little human? And there's so many ways that our lives run parallel. And so I'm really, really excited. Two, I'm diving in to your video launch course. We're going to put in the show notes, and what is it called again? What's the specific name of it?Michelle:It's called video creator classroom. Yes. And there's also a Facebook group.Beth:So I'm all in because one of the things entrepreneurial add that I have is, Oh, I'll start a YouTube channel. Oh, I'll do this. Oh, I'll do that. So I'm saying it here, because then people will hold me to it. That my commitment is to go all in with podcast content and YouTube content. So I'm all in, I can't wait to get started on the content and I'm following directions. I'm not doing it my way. I'm going to learn from the best. And I hope those of you listening, I can understand that free content. I have people even with my YouTube channel that will grow this year, but I made a tiny little video before we even knew how to turn our phones or have ring lights. And that one video has so many views. And I've recruited many people who have reached out to me to say, Hey, could I join your team? And I was like, what? Like out of the blue, right? You get these messages. So imagine that content that we find. So it's free, right? It's free to be on YouTube.Michelle:It's free. I had a girl, and I forgot to share this, she found me online and joined my team and added over 700 people to my downline. 700 people. And so yeah, those were the things as it was making the channel, I was like, wait, this is awesome. So you know that was happening. I was like, I can't believe this is happening. So the blessings that came from the videos, I mean there's no way my team would have grown to the size it did without her and without a few hundred people in it found me online.Beth:So this power of YouTube brings you high quality leads. and the lesson I'm taking away is do it before you feel ready. Going into your son's room, making that CD back in the CD days and saying yes before you had a perfect presentation. And then that shift that was like, you know what, I need to impact more people and I need to get out of my comfort zone and build a life for my family and for the legacy. I love those pieces. So we're going to close with one question and those of you that want to join us in this course, it is going to be Epic. I'm telling you. And we're going to give you a link below that you can get in because it's pretty new, right Michelle? This is like the first group, brand new.Michelle:Yep. So we had our pilot group go through it, and it is so great. It's just fantastic and people are just loving it and life changing things happening. So exciting. So, so yes, now the pilot groups run through it. It's ready to launch. So it's gonna launch in the next few weeks here. We're just getting all the emails ready and everything. But yeah, it's going to be fantastic.Beth:I love it. And where else? Tell them how to find you on YouTube. Find you on Instagram, Facebook, all the good things. Where do we find you? And then I have one big question to close with, so don't get nervous.Michelle:Okay, got it. So @directsalesmichelle is me on YouTube and on Instagram. And MichelleCunningham.com is my website. I just got my full name. I was so excited.Beth:That's really exciting. Did you wait a long time for your name or did you have to negotiate it? Okay.Michelle:Someone owned it. There was a girl that was a stripper that owned it to be totally honest, and I know, and then I called Wix a few weeks ago and they're like, ma'am, your name is available. I'm like, no, a stripper owns it. He goes, no, no, it's available. And I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, yeah, I have it for $600 or $700. I'm like, well, I kind of want that. I'm like, you think I can get a deal? And anyway, the stripper didn't give me a deal, but yeah, it doesn't matter. I got my name now.Beth:So a stripper owned your YouTube chat, I mean your website.Michelle:Yeah. Oh yeah. So I own Michelle Cunningham online, and then now I have Michelle Cunningham, but I haven't transferred everything over. But Michelle Cunningham redirects you to Michelle Cunningham online.Beth:I love it. I love it. Okay, here is your question. For people listening today that are ready, that need to take an action there where you were during those years of sitting around thinking, yeah, one day, maybe I'll do it. Still doing what they're not loving that they're doing. What are three things that after they finish their workout because we're in their ears or we're in the car. Three things that you can tell them to do today that will lead them to do that success that you are speaking of. Getting to the top of the company, doing all the things, having the freedom?Michelle:So three things. Number one, I would set a schedule, my life dramatically changed and I said, you know what, I'm going to hold appointments Friday at 6:00PM, 8:00PM and Saturday at 10, 12 and 2. I set a schedule and that was it. Those are the little windows that I worked, but that made such a huge impact. I got so much done in the Friday, Saturday that I worked my business. I booked appointments all during the week, but I knew on Friday and Saturday that's when I got dressed, got out of the house, did my thing. So that's number one. Set a schedule and make it. I used to do Tuesday afternoon, Friday mornings, Sunday, Thursday. And my family is like, are you going to be home today? Like no one knew anything. So when they finally knew every Friday, mommy's busy, every Saturday, mommy's busy.There was so much harmony that brought to our family. Number two, I would say positive affirmations all day long. I think as women we just are always overthinking things. So I think fill your cup with things that motivate you. I like to watch crazy people online. Gary Van Der Chuck, he swears a lot, but I do like his message. And so finding people online that have a powerful message. The Tony Robbins of the world, the Sarah Robbins, the really motivational people out there. Follow those people and absorb what they say. And my last tip would be run your own race. Run your own race. Don't look left or right. I think that when you think about what other people are doing and you're worried about what they're doing, it doesn't matter. They're on their own train track. You're on your own train track and your train track is moving. Your train is moving on your track at the rate it's supposed to move and you can make it move faster.But it doesn't matter what people do to the left or right of you. And that includes the people on your team. One person cannot dictate your success. Other people's trains have taken a break and they're having a snack somewhere. That's just fine. You keep your train moving. And so I always stayed in a very happy state because I personally worked my business and I didn't look left or right. I'm so disconnected to the world like, you know what's going on in the world. I don't watch the news, I don't watch other people and I just do my thing because I'm out here just Owning My Awesome. And I recommend the same for you because you can't really think when you don't know anything. It's great.Beth:Okay, the name of this podcast episode will be, Own Your Awesome with Michelle Cunningham. I have notes covering my desk. Michelle. This connection is so amazing because I know that, I already decided we're friends forever. Okay?Michelle:Done. When am I getting my necklace? I want to get the hat. It's actually really funny. That would actually be really fun. I totally feel the same connection to you. So like I want you to know, it's not like you're the weird friend that just likes me. I feel the same way. I also, I'm feeling like, my new best friend. I totally love her. So we're still on the same page and you're such a rock star, and you're so amazing in all that you do. And I just commend you and I am really, I've got to learn about podcasting from you because I want to start one and I've been dragging my feet a little, so it'll be good.Beth:I'll teach you podcasting. It's been such a great connection and so I want to challenge you guys to...I'm just, I'm going to go over, set a schedule positive affirmations and run your own race and just get started. Michelle is a perfect example. Before she was ready, before she had a plan, before she had the perfect pink office. But you guys are gonna be so jealous of the pink office and just do it. Get yourself started and ready and put out the free content and Own Your Awesome. Thank you Michelle. And we'll catch you guys all next week on You're Not the Boss of Me.Oh my goodness. How awesome. How awesome was Michelle today you guys? So let me just ask you to do this for me. Let's get some Instagram love today. So please screenshot this and tag us both @bethholdengrades and @directsalesmichelle and let us know that you loved this episode today. Also, there is still time. This is so exciting that ProfitHER Way is launching this month. We have so much to do and preparing your profit plan, helping you to make money your way. So go ahead and go over to bethholdengraves.com/profit if you are ready to be a part of a powerful mastermind and getting your plan in place for 2020. And as always, I'll see you over at Camp Elevate.Thanks so much for hanging with me today on the podcast and remember, you can create what you crave. If you're looking for a supportive sisterhood, I would love to see you over in our free Facebook group. As most of you know, I love camp. It's part of, 'You're Not the Boss of Me' because when we're building this thing, we're doing this thing. We need a supportive sisterhood and I also crave more fun and more connection. Join us at camp over in the Facebook world, thecampelevategroup.com or just click on the link above and we will see you around our campfire and help you to create what you crave.

James: Hey, audience. Welcome to Achieve Wealth podcast. Achieve Wealth podcast focuses on value add real estate investing. I'm James Kandasamy. Today I have an accomplished couple, Jack and Michelle Bosch. And Jack and Michelle Bosch have done more than 4000 land flips across the nation. Land flips is something very interesting to me. And, you know, it's an asset class, or an asset class, which I think is very interesting. And you can learn how we make money out of it. They've done a lot of single-family houses. And they also have done apartments; 330 units apartments. And, you know, they are continuing to look for more and apartments as well, but I think they are the masters of land flip. Hey Jack and Michelle, welcome to the show. Michelle: Thank you so much for having us, James we're excited to be here. Jack: Thank you for having us, James. James: Tell me, did I miss out anything in your credentials or you know, did I -- Jack: No, other than we're both immigrants, we both came from other countries. So we started here with, just like you, just came over from another country and so we have that in common. But now we flip now 4000 pieces of land. We teach it now; so we have seminars on that. But then for asset allocation, basically the money we make for land flips and whichever way rental properties now, we rolled that into more and more two apartments now. Michelle: Yes. James: Got it. Michelle: To produce what we call one-time cash with the land flips like you work for a once and you get paid once. We're also able to produce some cash flow because we are also able to sell those properties using seller financing, you know. James: Got it. Michelle: And so you do get some mailbox money, but those notes usually come to an end once the property is paid off. And so, we're always in the back of our minds is okay, let's roll cash profits and cash flow into what we call forever cash, which would be a partner. James: Got it. Before we go into the detail of land flipping, I want to understand your background because I know all of us are immigrants So can you tell me when did you guys move to the country? And how did you move? Were you already successful on the day that you land in this country? Michelle: Oh no. Jack: Of course, we're like, we're a billionaire. James: Did you find gold outside the boat? Jack: No. So, Michelle… Michelle: Yes, for me I came from Honduras here in 1995 to study. I came to a tiny little town like about three hours South-West of Chicago called McComb, Illinois, that's where I met this man in the middle of the cornfields. It's basically university town, you know, and nothing else to do.I came here for a business degree, my undergrad, and I was in my senior year there, my third and last year when I met Jack. We shared some upper finance courses together because he was here for an MBA, 10 months. He met me and then he couldn't leave anymore. James: Got stuck, you got stuck in the US. Jack: She's right. She summarized it. I came in 1997, Michelle was in her last year in undergrad. I did come in for a Masters to that same university that had an exchange program with the university I used to go to Germany. And I was kind of like be able to kind of accomplish three goals in one year. Number one; I was able to get an MBA in the United States because it was an accredited school and I was studying business Germany. Already had enough credits and I just needed these 10 months, was enough to give me the American MBA. They give me, I tested out and all of these other things. Number two, I was able to get credit for the missing classes in Germany. So with that, I didn't have to go back to Germany to do more classes. I completed my degree in Germany, those same classes gave me the MBA. Also helped me complete my degree in Germany and improve my English. And the fourth and most important thing, I met this one. Michelle: But to answer your question as to whether we came here successful, absolutely not. I came in with two suitcases to my name, Jack pretty much the same. You know, I was raised by a single mom and my father passed away when we were very, you know when I was very young. And it was, you know, she was sending me here to study with a lot of sacrifices. I had to take several courses, you know, take seven courses per semester, like advanced as much as possible, because I couldn't afford to be in the US for more than two and a half, three years, you know what I mean? And eating soup towards the end of the semester when you run out of money. And, but I didn't have, I did have in the back of my mind the thought that real estate has been incredibly good for my family. You know, before my father passed, he had made an amazing decision. And it was to buy a piece of commercial property that to this day spits out cash, you know, for my mother. And so -- Jack: And that piece of property brought her to college here in the -- Michelle: Got me through college. Jack: And still sustains her mom over there. Yes, in my case and my dad's, again the same thing my mom, not the same thing but similar. My dad is a high school teacher, retired now. My mom's a stay at home mom. So no, I came here with student debt. I came here with enough money to pay for one semester, I didn't have, really didn't have a clue, how I would even pay for the second semester. Luckily, I got a job at school. The first car that I bought in the US was a $900 old Chevy caprice, like the old [inaudible05:31] car that they use to drive around -- James: It had four wheels, right? Four wheels? Jack: Four wheels, yes. Michelle: And I was like Jack, why did you get this, I mean, there are so many cars, why did you get this car? And his answer was like, cars in Germany are so tiny, I was looking for the biggest car possible in the US. Jack: Like Germans and every single one of them bought the biggest car that they could find. James: That's good. That's good. Yes, I like to, that's a very interesting story from both of you, right. So I like to, I mean before we go into the technicality of the commercial real estate and all that, I like to understand a lot about the thought process and you know, the people behind it, right. Because I think that's what makes everybody successful. It's not about the tool like real estate, right. So tell me about what was your family thinking when looking about the US from outside, right? Did they think the US is the land of opportunity, easy to get rich? Or how I mean, can you talk about the process that when families outside of the country when they want to send their children to the US, what do they usually think, you know, what do they think that you kids will get here? Jack: Well, I think Michelle's mom was perhaps not thrilled that she would stay here. Michelle: Yes. James: But not thrilled? Michelle: No, yes. James: Okay. Michelle: The whole point was to come here, study, not find a husband, go back home and basically help her manage, you know, this piece of real estate and hopefully, you know, continue growing the legacy that was left to us. James: Okay. Jack: Next, get a job, right? Michelle: Yes, yes. Jack: Same thing here. My parents were absolutely not thrilled that I was staying here behind. They, I literally had the job lined up in Germany. I had the, I just put my student furniture in my parents' basement. I had a good degree from a good university and good things and they're like, what are you doing? What are you staying there? What's going on there, you're so far away. In particular, my mom had a really hard time with it for several years. But then once they saw our success, particularly once we entered real estate, and once we saw success and what that success actually means for them too and for us. It's like we don't, we see our parents, this year we see my parents three or four times even though they live in Germany. And it's like, and they, we support them a little bit financially. They get to come here and they get to spend time here. And they see that they don't have to worry about us like we're the one or like, we're my, Michelle and our family, they don't, they're like a peace of mind. They're okay. They're good. They're happy financially, they're good. So, you know what as a parent you wonder, you want to have that feeling. So they know, ultimately, it's a good decision and took them like 15 years to say that, but they did. Michelle: Yes, I mean, we also contributed to, you know, being able to retire Jack's dad before time. You know, a couple of years before he had been working as a school teacher for many, many years. And he was just at the point where he just didn't want to do it anymore but he couldn't leave it because, you know, that involved a big reduction in his pension if he did. And so we put the pedal to the metal back then and it was just through land flipping, to be able to make up for that, you know, for those two years of early retirement and being able to retire him early. So -- Jack: So he ended up retiring a year and a half, two and a half years early because of that and James: Wow, awesome. Jack: And so overall so now they totally have changed. Michelle: Yes, so family has been always I think also big why for us, a big driver to get things done. James: Got it. That's absolutely what happened, you can come here and help out your family back home. It's just sometimes people, I mean sometimes they think that okay we want to come to the US and stay here but that was not the case for both of you, right? I mean, you came to study and you're supposed to go back. But you got stuck with each other. Jack: The United States is a wonderful country to be. But then we also, we realized, I don't want to live in Honduras, Michelle didn't want to live in Germany. Nothing wrong with these two countries, they are beautiful countries but language barriers, cultural barriers [inaudible09:40] we're already here, let's try to make this work here. We got lucky, we both got jobs here. We got the job that got the visa, the h1B visa, took five and a half years to get to that process. Michelle: And it was a job, jobs we both hated. But we were handcuffed because of the, you know, green card situation. And so we had to stay but -- Jack: Yes, but yes, it was just something, let's see if we can make this work here because we like it here. And we -- James: Got it. Jack: Beautiful neutral ground also for us. James: So do you think that as an immigrant, did that whole life situation gave you a boost, a reason for you to be successful in the US? Michelle: Absolutely, it like, I think it was incredible, it gives you an incredible drive and hunger. Like I don't come from a wealthy society like Jack's, you know. I was going back to a third world country, you know, yes, from a middle-class family, but still to a very poor society. And so for me, yes, that, you know, that was an incredible drive, you know. You still go back home and those wealth disparities between the haves and have nots are brutal. And so you definitely don't want to be caught in the haves not part. You want to be caught in the other group of people. So, yes, that was definitely a big, big drive for me for sure. Jack: Yes, absolutely, yes, same here. I mean, but a different way. Here, it's more like I could, anytime I could have left and go to Germany, first-class country, Mercedes Benz, would've gotten a good job with a BMW as a business car and expense budget and staying in nice hotels and all those kind of stuff. But the overall I mean, there's something really amazing about the US and I keep saying and it's not like blind nationalism. It's just for business and for success and for comfort, and for just that particular business. It's just an amazing country. It's like so once we started setting our eyes on that, it's like, it's so easy to do this. And definitely helps to be an immigrant, I don't know if the hardship helps if you use them, right. Michelle: Yes. Jack: So we use them as fuel. We used them as a reason why we needed to succeed because we did not want to live a life like I was travelling 100%. I mean, sounds glamorous, like I was jumping the plane on Monday morning going somewhere. But I was staying in Holiday Inn Express where ants were crawling up the walls. And in some cases, and usually, in small towns, where there are five restaurants, three of them are fast foods and I was like working in some companies up till midnight and I didn't enjoy it. So I use those things as fuel to say okay, I really got to do something extra in order to succeed. Now, having said that, being an immigrant here, which as you can probably confirm, is you start, you see way more opportunity that the non-immigrant see. Because it's not normal to you, what you see around you is all new. So as it's new, you look at it from a different angle and you see the holes in it, based on compared to what you see in other places in the world. And it's like well, and any kind of opportunity that ever existed is really masking itself as a problem. So you see, like anything that created like glasses, have been created because people don't see up with eyesight anymore. The problem is the eyesight gives is the solution. So anything even multifamily is the solution to a problem. You take a problem, you take a problem property that's been run down and you make it into the prettiest property in the neighbourhood. You provide a solution for people who want to save, solid, good well-working place, affordable place to live you can make something out of that. And it's true for everything and as an immigrant, I have a feeling you see that much more than then if you're born and raised here and it's everything is just normal. James: Yes, yes. Hey, I had a friend from the UK and he left the UK came to the US and he kept on telling me this. I don't know whether the UK or entire Europe, right, I mean it's a well to do country, it's a rich country but there's no easy part to break out from your circle.You can't break out as a breakout and go to the next level, you’re always within that, you're probably working, you're earning, you're learning, you are living an average life like everybody else, but you can't break out to the next level. So I'm not sure how is that in Germany, but in the US. Jack: Plus Germans, they don't move a lot. So you're on top of it, almost like down by your social circles, that like there's a party, a thing and a friendship. So if you start breaking out, you become you're almost alienating the people around you. Michelle: An anomaly. Jack: An anomaly. James: Okay. Jack: And if you don't have the stamina to keep that off and build a new circle of friendships or so, then you're going to be pulled back down. And that's another benefit as an immigrant, it's like, hey, it's like you didn't burn the boat but you cut the ties. It's a brand new world, it's a brand new opportunity, you associate yourself and make friends with those people that you want to make friends with. And it's just a, it's almost, it's a brand new world. It's a different thing. James: Got it. Michelle: I think especially in Jack's case, you know, resonates with that because he comes from a very small town in Germany. And he's like, there are some people that even though I didn't want to socialize, I had to because it was such a small town. James: Yes, that's true. Jack: Once when I was younger I was in college, I went to study in Spain for half a year. I came back went to my favourite bar and they just asked me, hey you looked tan, what do you want to drink? So nothing changed in like eight months or so. And not a single thing had changed, the same people were sitting at the same desk, tables, in the same bar, drinking the same drink. And 20 years later, still is nothing has changed. It's still, you know, look older and unhealthier but other than that it's the same thing. James: Yes. That's maybe that's why the index happiness index is much higher in some European country. People are just happy with the way they are, right? Jack: Yes, and there's no judgment in that. Michelle: Yes. James: Why do you want to rush? Why do you want to rush? Why do you want to get rich just leave as it is, right so? Jack: Yes, there's nothing set to be there but if you have ambitions if you enjoy growth, like a bit like we enjoy personal growth. We're really on a personal growth journey, it comes with challenges, it comes with new hurdles, it comes with expansion and so it wouldn't be my work. Michelle: And those challenges, you know, are our part, we know are part of the journey. And you think that the goal is you know, a worth goal, but it's really, the goal is a being on a constant process of becoming, an expansion kinda like what Jack said. Jack: And the wealth comes as a side benefit of that. James: Got it. Got it. So let's go to your businesses. So you guys, you had your green card, you came here. You worked for how many years did you work on a corporate life? Jack: Five and a half. Michelle: Five and a half. James: Five and a half, so what happened after five and a half? When did you start your land flipping thing? Jack: Well, the land business, we started about three years in or two years in we realized this is not what we want to do with this job thing. So we started dabbling with real estate. And we really didn't find success until about four years into it, until the end of 2002. So -- James: Hold on, on the two years that you realize that your work is not the thing that you all wanting to do, right? Jack: Right. James: What was that ah-ha moment, say that? Jack: The ah-ha moment was actually, for me was the first particular day that the company of 7000 people, let go a 1000 people in one day. Michelle: Right after September 11. Jack: And the economy did a massive shift downwards, the software company that had grown from 500 people when I joined them to 7000 people, three years later to two or three years later, we're starting to go back down from 7000 to 4000 people. And they did that in one year. As a matter of fact, it was within three days, during that one year. James: Wow. Jack: So one day 1000, another day 1000, another day 1000. These cuts were like for a few months apart from each other. But the first time that happened was when they literally, left and right when they when we were at the customer side, there was a software company. But I don't know anything about software and just wasn't a business, account department. They, business analyst, we were so worried about the customer side, that the phone would ring and our network was shut down. Usually, connect the internet to our corporate networks to get to files and stuff, all of a sudden, nobody could get into the network. It's like, oh, you get it, you get it. Michelle: You know what's happening, right? Jack: We started calling people in other offices, what's going on, you get in, no, nobody could get in. It's like oh, our network is down. Next thing you know, few of them, was over the phone rings, the guy picks up and all the colour leaves his face. And three minutes later, he picks up, he grabs his stuff and says, hey guys, nice meeting you. I was just fired. And he basically picks up his stuff and leaves. And that's it. And I was like, what you mean that's it? Like, again, Germany, if somebody fires you, they have to give you three months, -- Michelle: Three months. Jack: Three months notice. James: I thought it was 12 months notice. Michelle: Yes, so then you can actually train your replacement. Jack: Train your replacement and so on and or least have to pay for three months, some company say go home, but they have to pay for three months. Here, you're off and they gave him I think of four weeks severance if they signed something that they wouldn't sue the company. So and then during the course of the day, a whole bunch of people that I knew were let go. And I was sweating bullets, obviously, you know, we both were sweating bullets, because obviously, we work -- Michelle: And at that point, I had joined actually Jack's immigration, you know, files and paperwork because we figured, okay, there are very few people trying to emigrate from Germany. And there's so many more coming from south of the border, that stuck on Jack's application. And so we were both, you know, on his paperwork. Jack: So if I would have lost that job, we would have 60 days to find another job or leave the country. So at that moment, we realized, okay, this is, we're so breaking replaceable here, we're just a number in this big wheel of 7000 people. And after the day only 6000 people were like, okay, we got it, we got to do something else. We don't like it. After five and a half in an industry, you're almost like pigeonholed in that industry. I didn't want to stay for the rest of my career in that industry. So we wanted to get out. And we didn't know how to do that we just looked around. And after a few months or weeks of looking, we came across real estate, tried all kinds of different things, but couldn't get anything to work until we came across land flip. Michelle: And I think the land flipping thing was even, like falling forward. Jack: Yes, like pure coincidences, just like -- Michelle: We're looking into taxing and taxing you know, taxing investing. And I had gone up to somewhere in Northern California to a taxing option and stumbled upon, you know, a piece of land, a lady that owned a piece of land and we auction it off. And we're like, oh my gosh, you know, how could we do something like this? But instead of waiting until an auction happens, you know, how can we get to people much, much sooner. And because if she's a, you know, an owner of vacant land and wanted out, there must be other people. Jack: So we started sending direct mail to owners of real estate who have back taxes. And only people that own land, call us back. And -- James: You know what, that is exactly happened to me. I was trying to look for houses and all the people with land call me back. I said I don't want land, I want houses. Jack: There you go, you just missed out on a big opportunity right there. James: Yes, I should have known you guys. Jack: And then one guy had a property, it was worth about $8,000. But he hadn't done it, what's called a percolation test to make sure to put a septic tank in there, to see how the water, how fast the water sinks in the ground and it hasn't passed the septic test. So to him, it was worthless and he was leaving the state and he was wanting to leave. And he's like you guys can have that thing. And it's like, well, how about $400, he's like take it. So we got this thing for $400. And we sold it literally the next day to the neighbor across the street for $4000. James: Wow. Jack: And that became the beginning -- Michelle: And that's because our negotiation skills sucked. We were, the neighbor shows up Jack: And they just offered 4000 and we said, yes. Michelle: We were ecstatic, you know. Jack: Instead of like negotiating, we're just like -- James: You were like 10 times more, that's it, done, right? Jack: Right. And then the next deal was 10,000, the next deal, babe then we got to deal with like 21 properties for $30,000 that we sold for over $100,000. And then all of a sudden things started working. And then we also realize that most people that want to get rid of these properties don't actually even own property taxes. So now we go after all the general land and we generated millions of dollars, and we started doing this part-time then. Then Michelle quit her job because she was on the visa, started this full time. And then in March of 2003, I got, we got the green card. And then a few months later we felt comfortable. Michelle: I retire again. Jack: Retire, exactly. James: So my wife styles me. Jack: Then so in October of 2003, we quit our job, but it just we stumbled into that, bonded, built it up. And then for several years, we put the blinders on and all we did was land flipping. We only put our head up when the market crashed and everyone around us was losing money and we're still making lots of money. And then that's when we started buying single families and then later apartments. Michelle: Because we could buy houses here for forty, fifty thousand dollars, you know, with five grand in repairs and rent them for anywhere between $900 to $1100. James: Yes. Michelle: So you know, it made sense. And we had all the cash profits, you know, from the land business, because that land business actually, we're able to grow it very rapidly to almost an eight-figure business. You know, the first year we did about 60 deals, the second year, we did about 120 deals, 130. Jack: The third deal, 3800 deals. Michelle: Because we use them, we figured out a way to flush a lot of these properties. And by using auctions. So we used to have big live auctions, you know, we advertise on TV, radio, billboards, periodicals, online flyers. And get like 600 people to a room here in the Phoenix Convention Center, and sell them in one day 250, 200 to 250 parcels. And so we were quickly able to scale that and -- Jack: Build a bigger operation then, with like 40 full-time people. At the auction days, we had 120 people work for us, it was a big operation and we built them. And then we use those profits to then get into the forever cash market meaning buy, put asset allocation, as I call it, take the money we made and roll it over into something that brings cash flow for the rest of our lives. Now we have like 50, completely free and clear rental properties, which now have quadrupled in value. And we still own. James: That's awesome. Awesome. It's very interesting on how you stumble upon doing yellow letters. So that's how, I mean, I was looking for houses. And I believe I look at tax lien lease, if I'm not mistaken, people who didn't pay tax because most of the people who have an empty land, they don't want to pay the tax, right? Jack: Right. James: Because I think there's no cash flow, there's nothing coming. So Jack: Exactly. James: So many calls coming back, I was surprised at the number of response, people calling, but was calling all for empty land. And I say, I'm not going to buy that. So but looks like you guys monetize that I, I should have known that. Michelle: And you know, and even there, it's like in our countries, there's no way that you're going to lose your property over for taxes. But here in the US, you do, you know, the tax lien foreclosure method or through the tax [inaudible 0:25:16]. So those are opportunities that perhaps we were able to really, you know, hold on to because neither of our country's -- Jack: We would like, it blows away that people would even let these properties go for taxes, it was a perfect opening for us. And yes, so we monetize it in two ways. We learn, we wholesale them, we wholesale them. And we still do that, we just sold one week, actually two last week and, I don't know, every week there are sales. And we wholesale them, basically we buy something for $2,000 and go sell it for 10, that's not a bad profit, right? James: Absolutely. Jack: You can live off that. And plus, they're very affordable these properties. Or what we also do is we sell a seller financing. So a couple of months ago, there was one particular deal I want to highlight, is we bought the property for $5,000, an empty lot here in the city of Phoenix. And we sold it for $64,000 with a $6,500 down payment. So if you do the math, we paid five for them, and we got 6,500. So we got all ready -- Michelle: Our money is back. Jack: The moment we sell the property, our money is back. And now for the next 20 years, we get $500 a month and we'll make over $112,000 total on a property that we have zero money in, the moment we sold it. James: That's awesome. That's awesome. So let's walk through the land, the best land flipping strategy. Right? Jack: Okay. James: Because you guys have done it many times, right? So first is where do you get the list of landowners? What the, where's the best place to find? Michelle: So there are three possible places, we are still in love with a more difficult one. Because the harder it is for me, the harder it is for everyone else. James: Correct. Michelle: So there are places like Rebel gateway or Agent Pro, where you can get lists. And I think these two -- Jack: Lists services. Michelle: List services that basically, Jack: Online lists services, James: Lists source, right? Is it list source or -- Jack: List source or logic or agent pro 24/7.com. There's a whole host of different websites. James: What kind of list should we look for? Jack: We're looking for land lists, ones with value James: Other criteria, right? Jack: Yes, land, the other criteria is that the land value is below $100,000. Typically, because we found that to be our sweet spot, now you can go up above, but then your response rates are going to drop. [inaudible27:41] the pay for these properties just skyrockets and so on. But you can do those deals like we have a student the other day that made $192,000 flipping a deal that he put on the contract for much more than we usually put the properties under contract for. It went for 80 and he sold then for, what is that, close to 270 or something or 300. And then he made his offer to closing costs 192,000. But usually beyond that, we like out of state owners, but they don't have to be out of state. So there's a couple of other criteria. Then once you get that list, -- Michelle: You send them you know, you send them a letter and you can either you know printing stuff and stamped and lick all your envelopes and your letters. Or you can send it through a mailing house if you want to outsource that and send out letters and just hold on to your seat because you're going to get -- James: You're gonna get a lot of calls. Michelle: A lot of calls. Jack: Right, you're going to get a lot of calls, exactly. We did, for example, yes, when you send out these letters also, so we don't use the yellow letter, we've developed our own letter and split tested that hundreds of times until we got it to a point where we could not improve the performance of it anymore. And so our letter sometimes, there are a few counties where you get lower response rates, but usually, you get at least a four or five, six percent response rate. And it can go as high as 15 to 20%. James: So let's say now someone calling you, say I will land to sell, can you buy from me? What are the things you look for, to see whether you want to take down their number and follow up with them? Jack: First thing is motivation. Michelle: Yes. Jack: Because almost any kind of land sells, it's just if you get it cheap enough. Now, having said that, there are certain areas, certain pockets that we don't buy. I mean, there are areas in Arizona, where its land, an acre of land is worth $500, that's not worth pursuing. So the value needs to be there. So we typically don't just go below $100,000. We also start above 10,000. So that we have, -- Michelle: So you don't get crap. Jack: So you don't get crap. Michelle: Yes. Jack: So good language here. So you gotta get you together, you don't get junk land. James: Thanks for being nice. Jack: Yes, we have that ongoing, she's the foul mouth in the family. Michelle: Hey, you throw me under the bus. Jack: So then you, yes, you sent out these letters, I thin I forget the question. James: The question is, once they call, what are the criteria -- Jack: You asked them a few questions, you go through a list of questions that we created the script for and asked like if there's early access, if there is utility to the properties, and none of those things is a deal-breaker, they just determine how much you ultimately going to offer for property. James: Got it. And how do you determine what you gonna offer? Jack: Comparables, you run for market comparables similar to houses plus there are a few extra ways, like for example, particularly in rural areas, there might not be comparables of the same size. So if you're looking at five acre parcel, and you only have like 10 and 20 acre parcels, and there's no other five acres to sold or listed, you gotta adjust for size sometimes. So basically, a 10-acre parcel is listed or sold for $30,000. Well, five acres, not automatically worth 15, it's more worth a little bit more, because in rural areas, the smaller the parcel, the higher the price per acre. Michelle: Yes. Jack: So you get down, it's like the other way around, the bigger you go, the more kind of volume discount you get on the acreage. So going from 20 to 40 is not a doubling, it's more like a one and a half times in value. James: Got it. Jack: So 20 is, so the value over 20 years because of comparable shows you that's $40,000 and an 80 is not a 20 to 40 or 40-acre parcel is not $80,000. It's more like $60,000. So there's kind of you can adjust for those things. But the nice part is we buy our properties for five to 25 cents on the dollar. So that's the key to this entire thing. Because when you buy at 10, 15, 20 cents on the dollar, you can be off in your analysis and still make money. And you can make money by selling the reseller of financing and getting a down payment that pays for the property. And you have so much margin of error and so much offer in there that it's almost impossible and I'm not saying it is but it's almost impossible to screw up. James: Yes, yes. And what tool do you use to find those comparables? Jack: We use, we go on Zillow, we go on Redfin, we go on realtor.com, we go on landwatch.com, the same free websites, because I ideally go on the MLS, but the MLS only has, doesn't have all the land is allowed land it sells like owner to owner. And also even if you have access to the MLS, we do deals from Hawaii to Florida. Our students do deals out of the country, you usually only have access to the MLS in one little pocket. So it's impossible to almost have access to the MLS all over the country. Michelle: And it's relatively easy to do the comparable analysis we develop, like our own proprietary software that basically connects through you know, to Zillow, Redfin and all these services. So when I'm at a record, you know, and I'm looking at it immediately it populates for me, you know, whatever comparables. And if it's a little bit, you know, more, if it takes a little bit longer for me to do that, it's maybe eight to 10 minutes, you know, to look up a record elsewhere, specifically, like if it's an info lot, and it's completely built out, you kind of have to like back into the value of the land by figuring out, you know, what are the average, you know, prices in homes in this area? What is the average square foot? How much would it take a builder to, you know, building your house and, and kind of that way back into the value by -- Jack: So we build five methods to the value of the thing, not less, not the least is actually assessed value, any counties the assessed value as a relationship to the market value. And if you can prove over the first 10, 20 analysis that you do that this relationship is reliable, and you can just use the assessed value too for evaluation. Michelle: In a particular county. Yes. James: So you have to pay property tax on all this land, right? Do you try to flip it within the year so that you don't pay property taxes? Jack: As a matter of fact, the way most of our students are doing this is that they don't actually ever buy the property. What they do is that they put the property on a contract and then go market the property right away, and then either do an assignment or do it what's called a double closing, where they use the same day transaction where they buy it and sell it both in the same day. And the buyer brings up all the funds that pays everyone. So -- James: That's a wholesaling technique, right? Jack: It's a wholesaling technique, James: Yes, like in houses, that's what -- Jack: Exactly it's same, the same technique just that we use land for it. And the nice part about land is there's no tenants, no toilets, no termites, there's no repairs. There's no you don't have to show anyone the property. Michelle: James and in the competition -- Jack: Is almost none. James: That's why so many people call me. Jack: Somebody on this podcast just told us that he walked away from owning land because he didn't know -- James: I know. You know, I was thinking that time why are these people selling all their land. I mean, there must be some business here. But I was so busy looking at houses, right. And I thought… Jack: Right and that's the normal thing. So there's almost no competition. And for the last 12 years, we have done this entirely, virtually we have not looked at a single piece of land ourselves. James: Yes. Jack: Google Maps, Google Earth, you can see it all, you don't, Google Street View, you can just drive by your lot, take pictures. And it's all there, no reason to get dirty and dusty out there. Michelle: And that's another thing that I think I want to add in terms of like how simple it is. And now that we've like perfected our system, how predictable it is, you know, is that when we started looking into real estate, because we're both not from here, we had no clue completely clueless about construction, about estimating repairs for kitchen or bathrooms, for flooring, for roofing, we had no idea. And you don't have to deal with any contractors, any, you don't have to deal with any of those headaches that usually you have to deal with improve property when you're dealing with land. So that's something else we forgot to mention. Jack: And that's actually why we also, the main reason why we didn't jump from that multifamily right away, but we took the bridge of single families because we first needed to learn the details of how much does it cost to rehab a kitchen and the bathroom, and the flooring and windows and things like that. We didn't want to tackle a $10 million project first. We wanted to go, start small, so we bought some rental houses with their own money so if we make mistakes, it costs us money and not our investors. And little by little we then learned and after realizing that we can manage those also remotely because our houses are in three different markets; Phoenix, Cleveland, Omaha and an even though new houses in Cleveland, I just hold a show last week. I may have a few houses that I couldn't even find anymore because I haven't, the last time I saw them was like eight years ago, and they spit out cash flow every month. The property management companies who charge them, everything is good. So after that experience was like we're ready for a step up and now buy the bigger buildings and manage them. And we can also do that remotely. James: Okay, that's awesome. So I'm thinking why did I miss this opportunity, right? And I think the answer to my question was, I do not know who to sell to. So how did y'all solve the problem? How do you go to market, okay, today you get land, how do you go and find the seller? Jack: So initially, we started with eBay and newspapers and then we figured out this big land auctions. But the big land auction stopped working about 2007, 2008. Michelle: And started doing online auctions. Jack: And then we started doing online auctions, we shifted, started everything online. So since about 2008, the middle of 2008 now, we have been pursuing and we have been selling all our land online through websites like Craigslist, through Zillow, through MLS. If you own the property, if you have a paragraph in it, it's just that you're allowed to market it. You can even a property if you own it, it's easy to sell it on the MLS anyway, if you don't own it, you can have a paragraph in your contract which we have, that allows you to market this then you can put it off to the brokerlessMLS.com for $99 goes on the MLS. Again, but in other, this land specific websites like land watch, landfliprealtor.com again, land of America and the biggest one that is right now driving the most traffic for us and everyone else is the Facebook marketplace. James: So they are people looking to buy land from people? Jack: Oh, lots of people like -- Michelle: Facebook marketplace and Facebook groups land, land groups. Jack: Yes, Facebook land groups. Yes, there's a big market. I mean, we focus on three kinds of land. Number one [inaudible 0:38:34] lots, can sell immediately to a builder. Number two, the lots in the outskirts of town, right, if this is the city right on the outskirts of the city, that's where we still buy land because it's in the path of growth. Cities like San Antonio, cities like Austin, cities like Dallas, cities like Phoenix, cities like LA, like Denver, all over the country, they're growing, their growing infill. They're there. They're growing in the outskirts of town we're there and there are two ways and the third way is we're focusing on larger acreage in the more rural areas. And that is for the multi-billion dollar market off RV, ATV's, hunters, campers, how would you love to have a 40-acre ranch out into the hills of East Texas, right? Wouldn't that be beautiful? James: Yes. Absolutely, Jack: Yes. And there's millions of people that are looking for that. And then we put the one on top because we get so cheap. If you offer those properties with seller financing, they sell very quickly. Michelle: Or a discount -- Jack: Or discount or market value, wholesale, there is price, will advertise it's a good property, it sells very quickly. And for example, one of our students just posted something that they put, they put an ad on the Facebook marketplace and within 24 hours that has 4250 people look at it and comment and message them. And obviously, they had to take the ad down and had multiple offers on the ads in one day. Now that's not necessarily typical, it might take a few weeks for the property to sell. But there are buyers with it's a b2c market right, we're the business to the consumer market. And the end consumer buys a lot of these lots and the [inaudible40:18] lots are B2B to the builders. Michelle: Yes. James: And how do you check the entitlement of the land? What is it zoned and all that? Jack: There's another company, Michelle: Yes, so you go through a title company, make sure titles free and clear. Jack: There are title companies that we use are not the same companies, different department that we use when buying a $10 million apartment complex than when we buy for it for a $30,000 piece of land. Obviously, the cost is different because they charge us a minimum cost, which is usually anywhere between $700 and $1200 a deal. But if you're about to make $50,000 on there, you can pay $800 and then make 14,200, still okay. James: What about land, which has a utility or going to get utilities, is that much higher price than? Jack: Usually it is and usually it's already, Michelle you can. Michelle: Go ahead. Jack: Usually, it's already in the assessed value included, occasionally it's not because the assessors like a year or two behind. But it's definitely already when you run your comparables, it's already in the market because that word is out and then other properties in the market are going to be listed higher, which tells you, okay, or listed or sold higher, which shows you the market value is higher. So your offer is going to be higher and the seller is going to be happy to accept it. And you make more money in the process. Michelle: And it's much more attractive to buyers too. Jack: And it sells quicker. Yes. James: Yes. So I can see people like me doing this, right, because I already have done the yellow letter marketing, I know all the languages and you know all that. But so anybody can do that, right? It's a simple business, which makes a lot of money. And you are basically bridging the gap between people who need the land versus marketing to their direct seller who is in a distressed situation or who just want to get out from. Most of the time they inherited the land, they don't want to pay tax and they just get rid of it. Jack: Looks like you talk to a few of them. James: I did, talk to a few of them. A lot of them said hey, you know, my mom gave me and she died and now I have to pay property tax on it. And can you buy it or not? Jack: Exactly right. Michelle: So you're helping them and then you're helping your buyers too. And I think the how quickly you sell the property has a lot to do with how you market the property, how what kind of listing you create, you know. There's a lot of crap where you just show a piece of dirt and no, you need to dream it, you know, you have a catchy headline. I mean, you have to understand a little bit of marketing and copy and grabbing people's attention and so on and so forth. But nothing that you can't learn. James: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And what do you think? I mean, you have a property software on it, right? What problem does it solve? Michelle: So what that does is, so back in the day, when we were starting, and we were doing in just a few deals, you know, we could manage to keep our stuff, you know, on paper, on an Excel spreadsheet. But the moment we basically started really scaling this, you know, at the point that we started doing the auctions, we could no longer continue using Excel spreadsheets, we really needed you know, a CRM. And not just a CRM to keep track of our buyers and our sellers, but to keep us organized in our process flow. From the moment that the mailing went out to the inbound call being received to are we ready on the status where we've done research and ready to send an offer, has the offer come back, accept it and we sent this out to title escrow, is it back? Is it ready to be put into the catalogue for the auction, you know, for sale? And so it basically it's a process deal flow from beginning to end for land specifically. Jack: And we build the software in-house that guides you along step by step through the process of buying a property, keep them organized, like statistics, as tax, there is a built-in buyers website, seller's website, calculator for the numbers and things like that. James: So why do you need like, you know, like you said, you have like 15 staffs, right, you have the CRM, what function does the staff do? Jack: The staff does the work, I mean, the CRM organize to work for you, but somebody needs to put in the data. And somebody really needs to press the buttons and do the -- Michelle: And somebody needs to pick up the calls from the buyers. Like we have a lady that is just in charge of that as of this position, basically, there are other people making sure that the phone rings and she's just answering them. Jack: But having said that, this is us, right, we want to spend our time with our 11-year-old daughter travelling the world. We want to spend our time focusing on apartment complexes and not focusing but spending our time, we love learning right and looking at complex deals and things like that. So after building our land business to the level that wanted to build it, we started putting a team in place of it. Having said that, we have many students that run one of them, at the top of the head, I think of one of them is also a coaching organization. He is on track this year to do 120 deals alone with one assistant with one virtual assistant. So the thing is, because it's simple because you don't have to rehab anything, because if you don't have to do anything like that, he can do a, he can do 120 deals just as a two-man or a man and woman, kind of show. And so you don't need a big staff is a point, we have a staff of like somebody picks up the phone calls, answer them they, you can outsource everything. So we use a mailing and a call center to take the phone calls, we use a mailing house to send out the letters. So what we have inhouse is somebody does the deal analysis to figure out what the properties are worth, and somebody who team of two people that prepare the listings and go sell the properties. Anything else you don't really need, anything else you can do, you can outsource. Michelle: And documentation, unless you like to work with documents, paperwork. Jack: But all of that is electronic. Again, it comes in we have buyers signed by DocuSign. We have, we scan things, we put it on to Dropbox, we use different files. We attach them to our CRM and stuff. But it doesn't require a lot of people to do this, which makes it even more profitable. James: Yes, yes. I mean, I think you've sequence it very nicely so that you can scale gracefully and you can have your own time too, awesome. Jack: Probably the biggest thing I think that this business because there's no competition and as you said the sellers have people that are, there are people that inherited this property, they're not getting 25 letters a week, like the hospitals. They're getting nothing a week, so when your letter comes in and when you make that offer, we sent the offer by mail to them, we give them 10 days to actually accept the offer. Then when we buy it, we get a contract and we have three months or four months or six months, whichever we want to close on it. So it destresses the entire thing. That means we can design this business around our lives. And so the life designing with a life -- Michelle: Retrofitting it into the business, Jack: Yes, determining when we have free time. So it's truly a business that can be done based on everyone's work schedule and in full time can be designed such that you work with around the things that are important in your life. James: So does it still work now in this economic cycle? Jack: It's actually right now is the best market that we have seen in probably 15 years. Michelle: Yes. James: Why is that? Jack: Because the market is up so it means that buyers are, still buyers will, the sellers will always be there. James: Sellers always be there, yes. Jack: There's always going to be people that inherited the property and don't want it anymore. But the buyers are right out there, right now out there in the market. They're positive, they're upbeat, they want to buy these properties. They want to take them up, take their RV's up there. Michelle: Ride their RTV's. Jack: Ride their RTV's, spilled something on it so the properties are flying off the shelves, and probably the big right now our properties and our students' properties, we see the highest margins that we've probably seen since we teach this. James: Awesome, awesome. Michelle: We have people that are doing this that are you know, stay at home moms, single moms to Rob, who's a dentist, he no longer is a, well, he will always be a dentist, I guess. But he sold his practice because, you know, 10 months into the land flip he's like, I don't need to be behind the chair anymore. And now his wife who is also a dentist is looking to sell her practice as well, to people that are having a job still in parallel because they, you know, they are already 30 something years in it. And they're like they have just one more year for their pension. So they don't want to go back and are doing it in parallel. I mean, we have -- Jack: It's across the board. Michelle: It's across the broad, from all works of life. James: Yeah, I can see anybody doing this, right? It doesn't take a lot of time and effort, not like house flipping or even rentals or… Michelle: Yes, in the house flipping world, you get a call from a seller and he says I'm interested. I mean, you better meet him at the property, like within a few hours, because you're going to have two or three people that are chasing the same house. James: Yes, yes, yes. That's what happened to me. I missed out on the land flipping, I went house flipping, life has become so busy. So coming back to the next level commercial asset, not the next level. I mean, the other commercial asset class that you guys are doing, which is multifamily, right. And you said you're doing it so can you explain that to me why you're doing that? Jack: Yes, we're doing that for long term generational wealth. So in other words, right now we do syndicate deals. So we have some deals that we make very good money, but and we have our assets and our paid-off properties. But so we wanted to take the next step in complexity, the next step and leverage the next step in personal growth. So we -- Michelle: Exactly, I think our investing has really followed our own personal journey, you know, of development and growth. So Jack: Right, so one of the things, so we started buying these properties. And the first one, we realized, we syndicate it with our investors. And then the second one, the first few we syndicate investors. As a matter of fact, the first one we came in as a junior partner. So we raised the thing, the guy that couldn't raise all the money. And the moment he was about to lose this deal and he basically said, like, if you guys raise half of the money, you get half of the deal, which is obviously a great, great deal. I've never come across that. Michelle: And we're gonna learn how to do it, as he has been doing this for many years. I'm like, that sounds like a perfect situation. Jack: But we also needed to put in $80,000 in escrow deposit, which we could have lost. So it was, he asks for something and he gave something, was a great deal. So we came in, we ended up raising 60% of the money. And doesn't matter, we didn't get more than 50% of the deal. We got in we learned a ton and then we started doing this on our own. And the first few deals like there was just, we have a lot of income, but we have like your cash availability is not always $3 million, right? So we basically looked at it as like we needed $3 million. Let's put some money in ourselves and let's raise the rest through syndications. So we did a syndication for the last few deals. And at some point of time, we might transition into doing deals without investors, the reading hold on for the long term, 10, 20, 30 years, and then our daughter can potentially then inherit and she can keep them or sell them and upgrade them and so on. But in essence, it's a way to, what attracted us to it over the single families is that there's another layer of management, another layer of separation between us and the actual issues on the problem. Michelle: Yes, because now all of a sudden, you know, when you're looking at 100 doors at a time, and that scale allows you to have you know, on the ground, a full time, you know, leasing person, a full-time person for repairs or maintenance. Another one that is turning units around, you know, we have the regional director with, you know, with the property management. And so for us, it's really a lot of asset management, but not the everyday thing of like, would you approve, you know, the repair on a toilet or on this, small things-- Jack: Which, today, I got two more in our single families because they have an authorization limit of $500 on me there because I don't trust them with more. So on a single family, so everything over $500 goes to me, which is literally something three or four things a week that happen especially in summer when it's hot, and AC breaks and so on, that are just like driving me crazy. Because every single time it's like they don't give you the information you need. They don't give you the details you need, you have to jump on the phone call, you have to email back a few times. They don't follow the instructions and how to submit it versus when you operate on a larger property, you can distance, you're removed from these things. You get a status report, you can dive in with your expert partner on the deal, I mean, the regional manager into it. And more than anything, the other thing we realized is you very well know, you can force appreciation and you can force value increase rent, which on the single-family house, you can just, you just cannot do. Michelle: Yes. And elevation is not based on the income but it's fixed but based on other properties. James: Yes, yes I always say that you can build a house, painted with gold, on real gold but the value is still going to be following the other houses surrounding it. Jack: Exactly. James: Are you guys using the depreciation from multifamily to offset the active income on your land? Jack: Yes. Of course, yes. Big time. I mean we -- Jame: That's double right. Jack: We have done on all the units we have, we have done the cost segregation study, and it is literally. Michelle: It shows a lot of the profits from the land flipping even from the educational business, you know, it's a very purpose-driven business for [inaudible 0:54:03] and it throws a nice chunk of cash. And I'm like, we need to, you know, protect that. And so we're, it feels like, you know, with apartment investing, we get to have the cake and eat it too, in terms of, you know, getting the cash flow in. Jack: We get cash flow, we get income, any cash flow, we get appreciation and we get the tax benefits that wipes out almost the entire income of the other things that we do. So it's a it's like a dream come true. Yes. James: Yes. So you want to consider real estate professional, not because of the land, but because of that single-family homes? Jack: Because of really everything I mean, Michelle: That's all we do. James: If you do just land, are you considering real estate professional? Jack: Yes, the land is real estate. As a matter of fact, I always say that when somebody says I've never dealt with land, only do houses. I said like, it's actually I said, it is actually an incorrect statement. Because you have never bought a house -- James: Without the land? Jack: What you buy is the land and the house on it. James: Yes, correct. Jack: That's truly a land transaction that had a house on it. The legal description of the property is not the house, it doesn't say it's a four-bedroom, three bath house, no, you're buying this lot, lot number 23 with whatever it happens to be on it. And what is on it is a luxury house or a dump is just defines the value differences. But so with a real estate professional, doesn't have to be defined by analysis, or commercial, or you can be land too James: Got it, got it. So let's go to a bit more personal side of it. So no technicals? So why do you guys do what you do? Michelle: I think for me, you know, in the beginning, it was about us having freedom of money, time, you know, relationships. And right now, it's about freedom of purpose, you know. It has you kind of like, you know, when you're struggling, somebody is listening to this, they're struggling, or they have a job they hate or whatever, the very first thing that you look at is how can you take care of your immediate family? When you have that taken care of, then you start looking at, okay, how can I, you know, start, you know, helping them my church or helping in my community or helping on a much, much larger scale. So for me, you know, a lot of my, you know, what drives me right now, and my purpose and my why is to become a mentor and a leader. You know, for other women to start investing in real estate, to start, you know, having their money work for them, for example, and set an example, you know, I want to be a hero for my daughter. And I want her to also grow into a lady that you know, knows how to manage your finances, that is very comfortable with investments, whether small or large and so on. So, Jack: For me, along the similar lines, I remember the year 2007, when we were and we had accomplished our first major, big financial goal, which was a certain number, I feel everyone has their number and goal in mind. And we had just moved into a gorgeous, semi-custom home that we designed from scratch up and all of a sudden, we're like, you reach those goals, and you almost like fall into a hole. And we fall in that hole because you expect to be like all candy and rainbows and everything and unicorns, but actually the quite opposite of that. But it's like for a moment you celebrate and then you're like, what now, right? So we basically sat down and was like, okay, so we can sit down now and we can go retire in essence, we can go sit down, we can do nothing. But we realized, for example, there's a charity in Michelle's home country Honduras, that we said we could go work in charities, in charitable work. But we realized, we're really very good at getting businesses to a profitable stage, we're good at kind of creating money, Michelle: That's kind of like our genius. Jack: And so that we are not the person that's going to live in the Honduran in rain forest jungle and feeding the poor, so but it's close to our heart. So why don't we stick to what we love doing Michelle: Our strength. Jack: So that we generate the money that we can be more impactful in those kinds of things. And as a side thing, I love real estate, I mean, I don't see myself not doing real estate ever. I mean, I hate it the entire the IT industry. I'm not personally involved in the continuous development of our software, because I'm kind of scarred from that time in the IT industry. I get involved into the what the vision is of it, but, and then we have a great guy that drives the implementation of these things. But we focus on deals, we focus on and if I can focus deals for the rest of my life and opportunities then I'm a happy camper, it's just what I love doing. So and it throws off money and that allows us to help more people, that is awesome. Michelle: And be transformational in the way, you know, and the way we treat our investors and the way that you know, people that want to participate in our deals. Jack: So the teaching side of things, we started the teaching side of things also kind of like almost like a mission kind of the point of view that not that we need the rest to save the world. But there are so many people out there that do real estate either the wrong way or that they don't know that there's an easier and simpler way that you can do real estate. And learn and grow build the confidence and capability in your life that then allows you to do whatever the heck you want to do afterwards that we feel like I was called to teach this and show the land flipping part of things to people. So they can also get on their own feet. And we have had years where we lost money in that business where we put it on their own pocket for and it was still fulfilling because we see the difference that it makes in the people's life. So we were committed and our core values are to be transformational. Michelle: Yes. And it's not just walking a person through a deal by really sculpting someone's spirit you know, someone's confidence, someone's courage through the process of a real estate deal. So it's incredibly rewarding work for sure. James: Okay, okay. So why don't you tell about how to find you guys. How can the listeners find you? Jack: Easiest way to find us on the land flipping side is to go to landprofitgenerator.com and you can also go to www.orbitinvestments.com, there's a link over to the land flipping side. There's a couple of other links on too. James: Okay. Michelle: I'm on Facebook Michelle Bosch, Instagram michelleboschofficial. Jack: And again on the land site we since we don't teach the apartment complex things, you do that. We have no educational things about that, we just, we do syndicate with investors. We do probably similar deals and but on our website like all the educational things all about land flipping. So we have a Facebook group called Land Profit Generator Real Estate Group. So everything we do on the land side is called land profit generator. So you look for land profit generator, you find us and orbit investments is more like the overall holding company above everything else with links to all the different pieces that we do. James: Awesome. Well, Jack and Michelle, thanks for coming in. I learned so much and I learned what I didn't miss too, but I'm sure the listeners learned a lot of things from today's podcast. Thank you for coming in. Michelle: Thank you so much for having us, absolutely. Jack: Looking forward to seeing you at the next mastermind. James: Absolutely. Thank you Michelle: Thank you, bye.

Stories in this episode: Crishelle and her friends' trip through Europe is threatened by a traveler's worst nightmare until a group of Swiss sisters steps up to help; When Elisha’s newborn is hospitalized, prayers from a local Baptist church help her to keep going; After moving to the US to fulfill her dream of attending BYU, Michelle receives unexpected help in her search for a place to live; Lillie gets a second chance at a life-long goal thanks to a complete stranger. SHOW NOTES: Today's episode was sponsored by TOFW.   To see pictures, and find links to things mentioned in this episode, go here. Special thanks to Davi Johnson. TRANSCRIPT: KaRyn Lay: Welcome to This Is the Gospel, an LDS Living podcast where we feature real stories from real people who are practicing and living their faith every day. I'm your host, KaRyn Lay. If you spend any amount of time reading, watching or listening to the news, you may like me, find yourself wondering, "Where is the good in this world?" I don't think that it is overstating things to say that the way that we consume media has changed and sometimes it can feel like all we're getting is the bad news. Well, a few years ago, in response to some particularly difficult or traumatic time, there was this meme that started to make the rounds on social media. Maybe you'll remember it. It had this picture of Mr. Rogers from "Mr. Rogers Neighborhood," looking as kind and as thoughtful as he ever had. And it said, "When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, 'Look for the helpers, you will always find people who are helping.'" While this quote was specific to helping our children process traumatic events in the news, and was meant to be part of a larger conversation, I was moved by the reminder that in times of darkness, we can find the light if we open our eyes to see it. The helpers. Look for the helpers. Well, today we have four short and sweet stories about those moments when the helpers show up. Moments when our collective kindness trumps our fear or discomfort and offers us opportunities to show God's love to someone we might not know. Our first story comes from Chrishelle. You may remember Chrishelle from one of our earlier episodes, she has such a unique name. It was called "The Strength to Forgive." And in that episode, she shared a lovely story about the power of forgiveness to heal us. Well, this time she has a story about a different kind of spiritual adventure. One where she had to accept the kindness of strangers when she was traveling in a foreign land. Here's Crishelle: Crishelle: After I graduated from college, I had an opportunity to join two of my friends that I had worked with through college, to go to Europe. And we were going to be gone for a whole month. And what was really awesome about this trip is we were going to travel all through Europe and see all of these amazing things that we'd all wanted to see. But we were also going to get to do some work with the refugees. My friend's sister worked for a refugee organization in Greece, and we had the opportunity to take supplies over to them and to spend some time just meeting some of the families that they'd been working with. It was so humbling to meet these families that had lost everything and to sit with them as they told us about their story and as they told us about their lives in Greece. And they told us how they were waiting to hear if they could join family and loved ones in other parts of Europe and throughout the world. It was just really a beautiful experience, so humbling and truly wonderful. Probably the highlight of the trip. Because we were taking these supplies over, it worked best to rent a car and to take our luggage around that way. That way we weren't checking bags all the time. And so we traveled through Europe in a car and it was such an adventure. We left Greece and went to Italy. And we decided to spend three days in Rome seeing everything we possibly could and it was so fun. We ate tons of gelato, we saw everything we possibly could. And our last day in Rome, we packed up our stuff to leave our hostel. And I had this thought while we were packing up, "Maybe we should leave our stuff at the hostel." And then I was like, No, that's silly. That will take so much time to come back. Like, let's just pack our stuff up. We'll go to the Vatican will be super smart about where we park, we'll make sure that it's not a sketchy area and it will be fine. Everything will be fine. And so we packed up all our stuff in our car and we drove to the Vatican and we drove around the Vatican a couple of times just to find the safest parking spot. And we did, we found one right next to the Vatican police and the Italian military were across the street. And while we were parking couple policemen drove by. And maybe that should have been a sign, but we took it as like, you know, heaven-sent, we're like "Oh, we'll totally be good. Everything will be wonderful. Let's run in and toward the Vatican." And we went and saw the Sistine Chapel, which was as beautiful as I imagined and St. Peter's Basilica. I am still blown away as I remember how big and grand that cathedral is. We were feeling a little anxious so we quickly left after our tour was over and we came back to our car and as we turned the corner, something felt off. We like hesitantly approached our car and as we did, we noticed that one of the little windows had been broken. Everything was gone. Everything. They'd taken all of our luggage, and all we had left was what we were carrying. That meant that one of my friends lost her passport. We lost laptops, I lost my retainer, which is so silly, but that was the worst thing ever because it's just gonna be sitting in a dumpster somewhere like that doesn't even matter to anyone. And it was so heartbreaking. In the moment, we lost everything. And we had no friends in this area, we had no one to reach out to, we couldn't just like call our parents. It was earth-shattering. It was one of those moments where like, please tell me that this is a joke. Unfortunately, it wasn't. We were so grateful that it wasn't like our lives or anything worse than that, but this was pretty tragic for us. We still had two and a half weeks of this trip. And we now just have what we're carrying. And so we prayed, we went and asked the Vatican police and they told us, "No, we don't help with those kinds of things." We went and asked the military guys across the street and they're like, "No, we don't speak English." And we found the police station and they weren't the most helpful or kind. And it was really hard. And we felt so lost and we felt so alone. Being robbed, I didn't think that it would be such a violating experience, but I felt so violated. I felt so vulnerable because these things that I had brought in order to take care of myself were now gone. We regrouped, we tried to go to the embassy, we weren't able to get to the embassy that day. And then we decided you know what, the most important thing for us to do right now is to go get some gelato, and to buy some toothpaste, and three toothbrushes and to leave Rome. We need to just leave Rome and we'll figure everything else out tomorrow. And so we did that. We went and got our gelato, and we found a pharmacy that thankfully somehow had the contacts that my friend needed. It was such a miracle, just the exact right prescription for her. And we left, we left Rome behind us. We traveled up to northern Italy and spent a couple of days up there. And it was Baptism by fire in minimalism. We went from having everything we possibly needed to, we were washing our clothes every night. It was such an adventure. Just that time it was just so funny, it was like the joke is always on us because we lost everything and it's okay, we were making it work. We eventually left Italy and we went up to Switzerland and we were getting to Switzerland on a Sunday. We had been planning on camping in Switzerland, but all of our stuff had been stolen, so that plan was out the window. We thankfully were able to make some arrangements for sleeping. Mostly, we were just determined to continue on and to have a good time. We went to a farmer's market and got little dresses and skirts super cheap. And I'm sure we looked like bums and stuck out like sore thumbs. And we went to church the next day. After sacrament, the Relief Society president came up to us and she said, "Are you the girls that got robbed?" And we were like, "Yeah, we did. We are those girls." We'd reported it and told her story on social media, mostly in like joking terms of we got robbed and Joke's on us, but we're still having the best time. As the Relief Society president explained, she had heard about us. She'd heard that we were coming and that we were planning on coming to church. And she had asked all of the women in her ward of early society to bring their extra clothes that they're getting rid of, and to bring anything that three girls traveling through Europe that didn't have anything might need. And she took us into this room and there were piles of clothes, and a suitcase and shoes and socks. Switzerland was a bit chillier than everywhere else we'd been. And we didn't have our jackets and coats like we'd packed. And she said, "This is for you girls, take what you need." It was really difficult to receive it. Our first reaction was to be like, "No, we don't need this." Somewhere in my head, and looking back, it was probably the spirit reminded me that often the greatest gift we can give to people is to receive the help that they're offering. And I just looked her in the eyes and I said, "Thank you." And it was so humbling. And in that moment, I also thought of the refugees that we had seen and I remembered how difficult it was for them to receive the help that they so desperately needed. And in no way were we refugees, in no way were we in the same situation as those refugees, but I really felt for them. Because I was now in this position where I didn't have very much, and people were offering to give me things and to give me the things that I needed in order to continue on in my journey, and it was difficult to receive it. And I feel like that is so much of what the gospel is about. The gospel of Jesus Christ, we all stand in need. We all stand in need so desperately of our Savior and sometimes it's so hard to receive that help. We are all strangers, I was a stranger and they took me in. We are all strangers, and he takes us in and that is what the gospel is about. KaRyn Lay: That was Crishelle. I've been trying all week to find a way to talk about the nuances of our theme, "The Kindness of Strangers." And I think I just realized that Chrishelle's story does it for me. The reality is that there are strangers on both sides of each of these stories. Yes, it was a group of strangers in Switzerland who were kind to these weary travelers. But those weary travelers were also strangers to the women of that Relief Society. How easy it might have been for them to view them and their struggles as none of their business. I mean, they were definitely foreigners and absolutely unknown to the women who helped them. But those Swiss sisters took their call as disciples seriously, and chose instead to see Chrishelle and her friends as sisters, and what a difference that made to all of the people in this story. That idea of a stranger is, in some ways, a construct that we can use to separate and divide us. But the gospel of Jesus Christ asks us to question that construct, to redefine the word "stranger," where possible, and to see one another with new eyes. Our next story comes from Elisha who saw firsthand the power of the kindness of strangers when her family needed it most. Here's Elisha. Elisha: I've always known that God doesn't leave us alone in our time of need, but I really came to know this several years ago. Our son Cooper was born on November 8, 2007. When he was about three weeks old, we took him to church to be blessed. We had family in town, and it was the Sunday that worked for us. And so as we sat down at church, a sister who was sitting behind us, and who was a nurse, mentioned that I really shouldn't be bringing him out during RSV season. I honestly didn't really know what RSV was, didn't know how you could get it. We live in the south and we don't really have harsh winters and so it's just not something that I really knew that much about. And I thought she was well-meaning, but honestly, I just didn't think too much about it. And so I turned back around and we had the beautiful baby blessing and I packed up things and we all went home right after sacrament meeting to avoid him coming into contact with anyone who's sick. A really dear sister in our ward took the time to write down the blessing on paper and give it to me, which was really a special thing. I'd never had a written copy of any of our baby blessings before. And I read through it and I loved some of the words that were on it. One of the things in the blessing said, "We bless you with health and strength necessary to fulfill your role and your mission, and that his spirit might warm the lives of those that he will come in contact with." Of course, I thought this was a really neat blessing and I set the paper aside and kind of went on with my week. Just a couple of days later, I noticed in the evening that Cooper's breathing seemed kind of labored. We called her pediatrician who assured us that everything was probably fine and that if we were still concerned in the morning, we could bring him in. And so as a new mother, I was in and out of his bedroom for several hours and I couldn't stop the worry. And at one point, it became evident to me that he was really not doing okay. And I prayed because I didn't know what to do. And in that moment, I heard that voice say, "This is RSV. He needs to get to the hospital." So I went into our bedroom and I woke my husband up and I called my parents to come and stay with our other children. And we went straight to the hospital. And when we got there, the hospital staff that was attending to our son said that he probably would not have survived much longer had we not gotten him in to be seen. His pulse oxygen level was really low and his breathing was extremely distressed. One of the ER nurses asked my husband and I how long it had been since we'd eaten last and at this point, it was probably five o'clock in the morning and we both were, you know, saying, "Of course, we haven't eaten anything overnight." And so she disappeared for a moment and then she came back with a styrofoam container from the cafeteria with a biscuit and eggs and bacon and just all the things to make a breakfast sandwich. And we were so touched by the kindness that she would go and do this for us. It did turn out that our son was very sick, and he was in the hospital and eventually moved into the ICU. And it was a really trying time in our lives. The words to that blessing came back to me and I just kept thinking about what a blessing it was that not only did he have that blessing, but that it had been typed out for me and that I could take some comfort in the fact that he would be in good health at some point. Throughout that time, we had so many kindnesses from others. One of our nurses saw that I hadn't left the room in quite a long time and came and said, "I will sit with him. Please, go take a moment for yourself. Go take a shower, go downstairs, go walk around outside." And she ensured that I would actually leave that hospital room for a few minutes from time to time. We also, at the time, had our two older children in a little Baptist preschool near our home, which we loved. And we love the people, they were so kind. But one morning, my husband was taking our two older kids to preschool to drop them off and then to come and be with me at the hospital. And as he pulled into the carpool line, a couple of the ladies came out and opened the door and said, "Let us take your kids right now, even though it's early, it's 15 or 20 minutes early. We will take them so you can get on your way and be with your wife." And we were so touched. And then they mentioned that in their prayer circle, they'd been praying for us all week. Another sister brought a bag of healthy snacks and some things to read and do to the hospital and dropped them off and it really touched us. We really felt the love of those around us working to do his work for us. I can't think back on that experience without becoming tearful and realizing how much we were loved and cared for by those around us, and how much our every need that I hadn't even had a chance to express, was met by those around us. I'm not a person who likes to ask for help and I just found that I really never even needed to because people picked up on things that we needed, and they did them for us without us even asking. Today, Cooper is an 11-year-old and he just received the Aaronic Priesthood. Several weeks ago, I was sitting in sacrament meeting and I watched as he was passing the sacrament, and I was overcome with emotion and the realization that he has been completely healed. He did live a lot of years with some episodes that happened with flaring up and breathing issues, but he has outgrown that. And he plays basketball and he swims and he's an athletic kid, and he does bring light into everyone's life. And it just makes me realize how much God is in the details of our lives. He knows what we're going through, He knows who we are, and He's there for us. KaRyn Lay: That was Elisha. I love the image of that Baptist prayer circle praying for her family. Women, and men linked together to use their collective faith to bless someone they barely know, or perhaps didn't know at all. I am positive that God hears the prayers of those close to us who know the ins and outs of our hearts. But I imagine that he finds deep joy in watching his children extend themselves beyond their inner circle, even if it's only in prayer. Our next storyteller, Michelle, shares her difficult first days as a true foreigner in a new land. Here's Michelle. Michelle: So when I was about 12-years-old, I decided that I want to attend BYU. The catch for me was that I lived in Tasmania, Australia. So it was not anywhere close to me, it was across the other side of the world. So after many, many years of planning and saving when I was 19, I left for BYU. And I honestly was just a terrible mess, I was an emotional disaster. It was just really, really overwhelming. And I think part of it was just being away from home for the first time, but also being in a whole new country. I remember before my plane took off, I was just sobbing in my seat. And basically the whole entire plane ride I cried. And this was like 24 hours of flying and traveling. My first night there, I remember I went down to—we were at a hotel—and I went down to a payphone to call my mom with a calling card that I had. And as I was trying to just dial the numbers, my hands were shaking, and I could not get my calling card to work. So I ended up just calling her collect. And I was just sobbing that whole entire phone call, I could not even speak really. It was just being kind of like make noises to her to confirm what she was saying. I stayed with a cousin for a little bit while I was trying to work out what my next steps were. So I didn't have anywhere to live, and I didn't want to live on campus, mainly because I was worried about feeling really old in the dorms. I had learned from other people I had talked to that most people lived off-campus after their freshman year. So I had planned on just finding an apartment off-campus. And so I wanted to get a feel for what they were like, so I'd walk the streets of Provo and I would walk around and I would just stop people that I saw that looked like they lived in a certain place and asked them questions about the complex and if they liked it. I actually went and looked at quite a few different apartments and one of them I remember I walked into the bathroom and it looked like a public restroom. It had little stalls in cubicles and concrete floors. And I was like, "Is this where I'm going to have to live? I don't understand." And then this other one, I stopped at a house and there were some girls that lived in the house. And then they said, "We don't have any room up here, but downstairs, check with them." So I went down, and it was a basement apartment, and there was just this older lady that lived there and honestly, it was very creepy. It was very small, it was like a wire, creaky bed. I remember feeling like, "I have to get out of here." So I had stopped quite a few different people at different places. And I met a girl from Texas, and she was really, really kind to me and she answered all my questions. And then she said, "I'll give you the phone number for the apartment." And I was like, "Oh, I actually don't have a phone so I can't call right now." And she's like, "You don't have a phone?" And so we started talking about that and then she offered to take me to the store to get a phone. And I was sort of amazed that this stranger would just completely offer to take me. She didn't know who I was, I could have been a crazy person for all she knew. She went and grabbed a friend to come with us. And right before we went and got in the car, I tripped and I hurt my toe. And I didn't look down, I sort of just was like, "It's fine, it's just fine." And instead, I could feel my whole foot—my whole shoe was like sticking to my foot and it was warm and I was like, "Oh, no." And they looked down and she's like, "Your foot is bleeding." And I was like, "I know and I didn't want to say anything." And so she got out a water bottle and she washed my foot for me. And then, she didn't just take me to one store and drop me off and just say, "Okay, here you go. Good luck!" She drove me around to three different stores, different phone carriers, and then we went to Walmart and I got different supplies I needed there, and this was a huge chunk of time, this wasn't like 15 minutes of her time. This took a couple of hours probably. She just really went out of her way to help me—someone that was a complete stranger I had never met her before. What's funny is the phone never actually helped me find the apartment that I went and lived in. I found my apartment by walking the streets and talking to someone else. I did eventually find one that way, which is funny to me now. But it definitely, what it did do is I was able to talk to my family. Because previous to this, I'd been using pay phones to call them. And I would go up to campus and I would use my email and I would just email them. So having the phone helped me to be able to communicate with my family, which is something that I really needed in that moment because I was just so homesick and overwhelmed. It really made a difference for me to stop being like okay, I can handle this and then when I call my mom at like, five o'clock, then I'll be able to tell her all these things. And it really, she really helped me to be able to adjust and like, tell me "You can do it, it's going to be okay." And I think without that encouragement, and without that connection to home, I don't know if I would have lasted as long as I did. I ended up staying for a full year in the end. At first it was like, let's just take the first step, I'll stay through the end of the summer. And then I ended up loving it so much, and it all ended up so well, that I ended up staying for the full year. I actually met my husband and then we started dating and we got married the following year. So then I stayed forever. This experience to me always has reminded me of how our Heavenly Father uses other people to answer our prayers, and how, through this complete stranger, my prayers were answered in a way I didn't expect. At the time I was just invested in finding somewhere to live and taking care of that part of my life, I think. And He could see the big picture and see that I needed a little help in maybe other ways also. I think it can be easy when we get busy with our lives to just sort of see needs and just sort of brush them off and be like, "They're going to be fine. It's gonna be fine." She could have very easily said to me, like, "Oh, good luck! I hope that you get everything sorted." Which is what most everyone that I stopped, said to me and there was nothing wrong with that. They were very kind people also, but she went above and beyond. And I think for me, it's always been a reminder that that is important. I should be always looking for chances that I can to go above and beyond and help those and serve those willingly, to hopefully help them in the same way that I was helped. KaRyn Lay:That was Michelle. My husband Justin has always loved this quote from Spencer W. Kimball, "God does notice us, and he watches over us. But it is usually through another person that he meets our needs." We have it on a huge magnet on our refrigerator. And I've often thought about how interesting it is, that quote means different things to me at different times in my life. Sometimes I read it, and it reminds me to look. To see God and the kindness of others. And sometimes when I read it, it reminds me to do. To go and to be the hands of God for others. And I think Michelle's story is a perfect example of the wisdom of that duality. It's really okay for that quote to mean different things to me at different points in my life. Sometimes it really is all we can do to notice God and the goodness of others. But, when the Spirit speaks to us to move, to do, to act, we can be ready and willing. Our final story today comes from Lillie. Lillie and her family are currently living in Paraguay, so the quality of the sound is a little bit different than all the other stories in this week's episode. It's a great story about that small moment when somebody, a total stranger, stood up for her in a time when it really mattered. Lillie: I think I always wanted to be a singer, kind of secretly. But I kind of wanted it to be like somebody would discover me or something and just think I was so great. But I didn't like to put myself out there. Anyway, so I actually auditioned for all the choirs at Ricks College, which is now BYU Idaho. And it turns out, in our church culture, everyone sings. They grow up singing you know, in primary everyone sings and it's very competitive to get into the choirs at Ricks at that time. So anyway, I auditioned for all of them, I did not get into any of them. Except I did get into the girl's chorus which has about 200 girls in it. I mean it's huge. I mean it's just like an auditorium filled with girls. And I didn't know anyone in there, but I was happy at least that I got to sing and that I got be in a choir. And our choir Professor chose a song for our choir to sing and I just loved it, I loved the song right away and it had about four small solo parts in the song. And the teacher announced that there would be tryouts the next week or so and we just needed to sign up and go to his office to audition. So you know, I got that feeling in my stomach like, "I think I want to do that. I think I want to audition for that." So I did it, I signed up, and I went to go audition for one of the solos. And I was pretty nervous but I went in and I don't know how I somehow got the part and was super excited. I felt, you know, validated like "See I am a good singer." I felt like that was kind of proving it to me. We get into class and this song comes up in the rehearsal. So I knew, "Okay, I'm gonna sing my solo in front of all these girls and probably half of them tried out for the song." You know, and I started to feel nervous like they were going to judge me if I wasn't good enough and then I felt nervous that may be that I would mess up. I was the third soloist during the song. We started singing the song, the other girls did great. Maybe that made me nervous hearing how good they were, you know. It came to my turn, I start singing and I knew right away that it wasn't that great. It didn't come out very well. I think I was trying to be loud you know in this room full of girls, I tried to maybe project, I didn't have the support I needed and it was terrible. And I was super embarrassed and the teacher says, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, that's not good. That's not good. Let's try it again." So I had to do my part again. And when I did it again, it was no better, it was really bad. And he says, "That's not going to work at all. Can somebody else..." You know, he was kind of looking for someone else to do the part right there in front of everyone. It was super awkward, all the girls were sitting there and maybe some of them were like, "Yes, maybe I'll get the solo because she couldn't do it. And it also went through my head how much I'm sure all these girls are thinking, "Yeah, I could do a lot better. Why did she get the solo? Right? I just sat there, I was so embarrassed. And it's like all the negative self-talk's coming out. You know? "You really aren't that great. You really aren't a singer. What are you thinking?" I just felt—I actually was nervous that I was going to start crying in front of all these girls and like kind of make a scene so I was trying to, you know, just really really quiet, just really kind of holding it in. I wanted to leave and it came through my head like, "I'm not gonna audition for stuff anymore. This is so humiliating. Just as I was in the depths of my negative self talk, out of nowhere, this girl says, "Give her a chance! She can do it, she can do it. Give her a chance, she's got this." The truth is, at that point, I didn't even think—I didn't believe in myself. But this random girl who did not know me, she was not like my friend sticking up with for me, she had no idea if I could actually do it. She stood up for me and he listened to her. And I got to keep the solo. I don't even know her name, I don't think we ever spoke. But because she believed in me, I was able to get another chance. And I worked hard on that solo. After I did the solo, I specifically remember, it felt really good. It was just this honest, like, I'm just going to do my best. And I sang the solo there in that cool concert hall that had awesome acoustics there at Ricks. And I had a couple of people come up to me and say, "You have a very unique voice. I really enjoyed that." So I think that I had something to give though it wasn't like, I'm not the best, but I had my unique thing to give. I've taught in the primary for many years off and on and I use this story a lot, mainly cause stories help the kids listen. But, I use this story a lot to help them think about the kind of person that they want to be in different social situations when we see someone that is in a vulnerable place, or who maybe needs a friend, needs someone to stick up for them when nobody else well. I always say, "Be like this girl. She went to bat for me and she did not have to, she didn't even know me." That's literally what the Savior does for each one of us. He lets us keep trying. He believes in us and knows that we have the potential to be better and to improve and He really doesn't give up. You know, He does know us though, and that's the only difference is that He does know us but He sticks up for all of us, right? He knows that we can do it and He goes to bat for us. KaRyn Lay: That was Lillie. I think her question to those primary children after she shares that story is something I'm going to be thinking about for a long time to come. What kind of person do I want to be? I think most of us, as willing disciples of the Savior, would say that we want to be the kind of person He was. An advocate, a healer, a friend and light to the stranger, the foreigner, the marginalized, the bullied. But. how? How do we find the motivation, the courage and, frankly, the time. I recently heard a wise woman suggest that if we feel overwhelmed by the idea of all that's wrong in the world and our own inability to fix everything, one place to start is to simply show up. To put our bodies in places where they can represent our support of others and tangible numbers. We don't have to know exactly what to do or even how to do it. But if we show up, then the Lord can tutor us on what comes next. It reminded me of a part of Sister Linda K. Burton's talk from the 2016 General Conference. When the "I Was a Stranger" initiative was announced. She shared the story of those, including the women, who stayed behind while the men went to rescue the suffering members of the handcart companies. Not only did they immediately donate all their extra petticoats, socks and warm things to the effort, but as the rescue teams got closer to the valley, they gathered in the tabernacle to prepare to receive the sick, the needy, the stranger. President Brigham Young exhorted those gathered to receive them as your own children and to have the same feelings for them. I'm positive, I'm positive that there were some who were nervous about how to proceed, just like you or me. Could they handle the hard things they were about to see and hear from those suffering people? And maybe they were uncomfortable about not knowing the right thing to say or the right thing to do. But they showed up anyway. And in the end, sister Lucy Smith said, "We did all we could to comfort the needy, and we did not cease our exertion till all were made comfortable. I never took more satisfaction, and I might say pleasure, in any labor I've ever performed in my life. Such unanimity of feeling prevailed, what's next for willing hands to do?" Whether the strangers we are meant to help or in other countries, in the hallways at our school, across the street, in our neighborhoods, or sitting next to us in a women's choir. Sister Burton promised us that "We can be assured of Heavenly Father's help as we get down on our knees and ask for divine guidance to bless his children," I hope this week as we think about our own stories of kindnesses given and kindnesses received, of those moments when maybe we were the stranger. That we'll all be just a little more attuned to see and be the helpers in whatever story comes next for us. That's it for this episode of "This Is the Gospel." Thanks for joining us today. And thank you to Chrishelle, Elisha, Michelle, and Lillie for sharing their stories and their faith. We'll have the transcript of this episode and pictures of our storytellers, as well as a link to Sister Burton's talk, in our show notes at LDSliving.com/thisisthegospel. Truly, if you haven't read that talk in a while, it gave me all the feels again as I revisited it, and I know it will for you too. All of our stories on this podcast are true and accurate as affirmed by our storytellers. If you have a great story about your experience living the Gospel of Jesus Christ, well, we want to hear it. We're still accepting submissions to our pitch line. Leave us a short three-minute story pitch at 515-519-6179. You can also find out what themes we're working on to help focus your pitch by following us on Instagram and Facebook @thisisthegospel_podcast. And don't forget to tell us all about your experience with this podcast. Take the time to leave us a review on the Apple podcast app, or on the Bookshelf PLUS+ app from Desert Book. We love to hear your thoughts about certain episodes and about the show as a whole. This episode was produced by Sarah Blake with story producing and editing by Davey Johnson, Danielle Wagner, Katie Lambert and me, KaRyn Lay. It was scored, mixed and mastered by Mix At Six Studios and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. You can find past episodes of this podcast and other LDS Living podcasts at LDSliving.com/podcasts. Have a great week.

                    This week we are talking about when to draw the line on knowing the "limits" of what you can do vs. when you should stretch your skills and do something you might be even a bit uncomfortable doing. Inspirations, Thoughts, & What We've Been Up To Featured Music: The Frail Ophelia's - "Scotland"  Michelle Basically just finishing up Newclear Family Brandi We are going to start a Patreon for all you lovely people who'd like to support us Our 100th episode is coming We will celebrate 2years of the podcast in February   I think something you can get out of this [conversation] is knowing other people's strengths. Like knowing your community. Knowing other people who have skills, and tucking those away, and knowing that they are there is another huge part of this. It takes a lot of pressure off of you feeling like you need to know everything. THANKS FOR THE FEEDBACK!!!! "I'm a fan. Of Brandi. Of Michelle. Of Design. And of this podcast. If you're a designer, you'll find value through the stories of a colleague. (Perhaps, you'll even send it to your Dad so he knkows what you do.) If you're not a designer, prepare to have your questions answered about the people and thinking that crafts the world around you."  - HughWeber on iTunes     Find us on all forms of social media via @BrandiSea on Instagram,Twitter,Facebook, and you can email us any burning questions you want Brandi to answer on an episode at brandi@brandisea.com. THANK YOU to the ultra-talented  Vesperteen (Colin Rigsby) for letting us use his (“Shatter in The Night”) track in every episode of Design Speaks.             TRANSCRIPTION Brandi: Hey guys, I’m Brandi Sea Michelle: And I’m Michelle Brandi: And you are listening to episode 72 of Design Speaks Michelle: Welcome to it. On today’s episode, we’re going to be talking about knowing your limits… Basically Brandi: Okay, It’s a brief summary Michelle:  Where to draw the line. Brandi: Oooh, Sounds intense Michelle: It sounds like it can be an eye-opener, for many of us, but maybe, we’ll see. Brandi:  Maybe more freeing. This topic mainly came from last week's conversation. Michelle: So hopefully you benefit from it, until then, Brandi, how about your week/upcoming bits of life?      Brandi: Yeah, so instead of talking about my week this week I just decided, well I am going to bring a song, which is really exciting, but I thought I would give you guys a little sneak peek, there's going to be some really exciting things happening here on the podcast. We’re going on 2 years in February, which is really cool. We’re currently planning our 100th episode which is less than 30 episodes away right now. I don’t know how that happened. Wow, we managed to talk about things for almost 100 episodes. So, we’re planning episode 100 if you guys have any thoughts or ideas on what you might want to hear on a 100th-anniversary episode we are open to ideas. Also, we are going to be launching a Patrion page for our podcast. As you know, up to now, we do not have any sponsors. That is not because we haven’t been approached by sponsors, it’s primarily for me, as sort of the main person behind this brand, I want to make sure that any sponsors we take are something either we actually use or something we actually like stand behind. There have been some random people who are like, “hey can we sponsor you?” and maybe we can use their product, but they don’t necessarily have something that you guys would find beneficial. Not something you would want to hear about on a creative podcast. Michelle: We have had people show interest in supporting us, and we are giving you a way to support us through the Patrion system. We will give you more details on that in an upcoming episode also online via Instagram. So keep an eye out for that so you can support if you would like to.

Michelle Vandepas is a best-selling author, TEDx and Keynote speaker and workshop and retreat leader attracting clients who know they want to dig deeper into or do more with their lives and businesses. She works with those who need a bigger audience, have a message to share, and know that now is the time. For Michelle, it’s not about who you are, but what you’re here to do. Her online courses, live mastermind programs, and VIP retreats have attracted thousands of people who now understand how to “BE” in their DO-ing, clear about their PURPOSE and filled with the SPARK of life. MENTIONED IN THE SHOW: The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron GUEST LINKS - MICHELLE VANDEPAS TheSpark.love The SPARK Facebook GroupPurpose: The Alignment Guide Free Gifts from Michelle HOST LINKS - SLADE ROBERSON Slade's Books & Courses Get an intuitive reading with Slade Automatic Intuition BECOME A PATRON https://www.patreon.com/shiftyourspirits Edit your pledge on Patreon TRANSCRIPT INTRO Hey, thanks for listening to the Shift Your Spirits podcast. I’m your host Slade Roberson. For eleven years, I’ve been a professional intuitive and the author of the blog Shift Your Spirits, where I try to write about spirituality with fewer hearts and flowers than most New Age blather. I also mentor emerging intuitives, psychics, and healers in a program called Automatic Intuition. Today, I’m sharing a conversation with Michelle Vandepas about aligning with your purpose. And, of course, as always, there’s an oracle segment at the end of the show. So be thinking about a question or a concern you have. Hold it in your mind, and I’ll come back on, after the final links and credits, and leave you with that extra message. And to tell you the truth, I am personally really looking forward to what that message is going to be! You may not realize this, but I use them for myself. It’s Friday, October 13, 2017 as I record this, and it feels a bit like the sky is falling. We’ve got wild fires in Northern California, people starting to die in Puerto Rico from drinking water out of creeks and ditches, going weeks without power or cell service… and millions of us in the US are about to lose our healthcare coverage. I really don’t know how much to address current events on the podcast, because the majority of you are listening from the future. Thousands of you. I want the content to be evergreen—meaning it can speak to you at whatever point in time you are listening. There is great power in the synchronicity of when you receive these messages. And even if I try to be super current with events in the present, they’re going to be a week behind, at best. So much changes, day to day... So, if I seem like I’m saying too little, not saying enough, or seeming to ignore something that happened this morning or went down in a big way yesterday, it’s just because recording is a snapshot in time, but the messages transcend time, to come and find you in your now. I am attempting to make content that has that ability. I am admittedly dancing around this. Awkwardly. If you have any input about how you’d like me to handle timely events, I would love to hear your suggestions. Shoot me an email. If you’re fine with my making these episodes entirely timeless, email me and let me know that too. Before I forget, I want to say a quick thank you to Merrie Kisch, my newest supporter on Patreon. And also thank you to Ann Luke-Montez who raised her pledge amount. I appreciate all of you who have pledged your support and I’m really excited to see the new names each week. It demonstrates that you’re enjoying the show and want it to continue. That’s very encouraging to me, thank you. Listen, I’ve lost a lot of people who are angry that I am communicating in audio. I have gone to great trouble to make most if not all the episodes available as a written transcript — today’s episode with Michelle about aligning with your purpose does indeed have a full transcript. For the record, there are eleven years worth of posts — hundreds if not thousands of articles — available on my site. Go to sladeroberson.com/archives There’s a search feature and tons to read. But I’m still getting emails from long-term followers who are disappointed. They don’t like the change. They want me to go back to short blog posts once a week. And you know, this platform has to grow and evolve. I needed to make this new and exciting and to breathe new life into Shift Your Spirits with this audio. Working with me is essentially talking to me, and I know from the feedback from those of you who love the show that it is authentically aligned with my voice. I’m telling you this because I want you to know that pledging your support on Patreon is one of the ways that you tell me to make this show for you and to ignore those who are sending me, well, hate mail for making this show. Some people do not like change. Change is the only thing in the world you can rely on. You gotta be a change surfer. You gotta learn to adapt and be flexible in all areas of life… But to wrap up this rant — it’s not just a “pledge drive” when I tell you about Patreon. It really literally is you saying “Slade, I love this podcast. I’m out here listening. I find the shows meaningful and helpful. Please keep sending me episodes." …I will. I plan to. Listeners who support the show on Patreon can access bonus Q&A episodes, where you guys send in questions, I record answers to them, and they go out to patrons of the show exclusively. I just released a bonus episode “How to Manifest a Relationship” as a tie-in to the show on soul mates. You guys who are supporters will find that download in the posts section on Patreon. You can edit your pledge amount at any time, like Ann did, if you decide you want to access the bonus audio. I’ll put a link in the show notes on how to do that. https://patreon.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115002804683-How-do-I-edit-my-Pledge- To find out how you can become a patron, support my time in producing this show, and access the extra audio content, please go to patreon.com/shiftyourspirits Okay. Let’s get to this week’s interview. Purpose. It’s one of our favorite subjects to talk about. And I’ve found someone perfect for us to talk to. Michelle Vandepas. TRANSCRIPT of INTERVIEW Slade: So, by way of introduction, for those of you out there who may not have heard of Michelle Vandepas, Michelle, why don't you tell us who you are and what you do. Michelle: So... Wow. I am a - so that's a great question, right? I suddenly realize I don't know how to put myself in a box of who I am and what I do. So I'm an author. I write. I'm a coach. I'm a business coach. I'm a book publisher. I'm a TEDx speaker. Those are all my accomplishments. But really who I am is someone who is highly concerned about the energy in the world and how I believe when we all are connected to our authentic self, when we're on purpose, when we feel alive and we feel aligned with who we are, that we can help change the planet to be a better place. Slade: Well, you know, in the time that I've known you, and we were just chatting before we started recording, about how we've known each other for probably ten years. And in that time, I've seen you do all the things that you're talking about. The TED talks, courses, workshops, masterminds, in a lot of areas that obviously are connected and make sense. But I'm wondering how did helping people align with their purpose become your purpose? How did you identify - how did you land here? Michelle: Yeah, good question. So what's really interesting is I've always been doing this in my business coaching, and back 20 years ago when I owned a business, a manufacturing business, it was a lot of coaching the employees and the staff members about how they could contribute the best in the work place. So I feel like I've always been coaching other people to be on Purpose. How I kind of came full circle and decided to devote the next few years of my life to helping people with it is I think when we're not feeling aligned with our own Purpose, everything else is just slightly off kilter or out of whack. So it's very difficult to run a business if you don't feel like you're doing what you're here to do. It's difficult to raise a family if you're always in stress about it and you don't feel aligned. So no matter where you are in your life, it comes back to understanding who you are at the core and then I know you relate to this. You write about Purpose all the time, Slade, so I think there's something fundamental that when we can accept who we are, know that we are here for a reason, that we can feel on Purpose with our lives, it helps everything else unfold. It helps all other areas of our life. So I think that's where I feel I can make the biggest difference. Slade: Okay. So Life Purpose. You hear those two words together a lot. It's a tricky thing to identify. I can tell you right now that this show will get tons of downloads just from that keyword or phrase in the title. I've seen it before. As you said, I do write about Purpose and speak to people about it and it's probably in 99% of the conversations I have with people when I do readings. So the thing is, back to the idea that it's a little tricky to identify. For a lot of people, it gets mixed up with creative passions, hobbies, jobs, career tracks, maybe it's a little of all of those things. Just tell me how do you define Purpose? Michelle: Yeah, I love this conversation. So the way I view Purpose is you're already living it. Everybody is already living it. Even if they don't know what it is. It is just something that is inside of us. And Purpose is how we express out into the world. In the very biggest picture, like the hugest picture, is how we express our love into the world. But that's difficult because love comes with so many romantic notions that it's hard to always wrap our brain around that. So let me give you an example. I like to work with archetypes when I'm talking about Purpose because I think it helps us relate a little bit easier. Most of us can relate to feeling like we're a teacher, we are a leader, we're a caregiver, we might have mom or dad energy, we might feel like we're a nurturer. These are energies. These are expressions of a way to give back or to live our life. But they don't have really anything to do with a vocation or a hobby or a job or a passion. So if you identify with, let's say, the caregiver archetype, you enjoy helping people, you like to nurture other people. You may or may not become a nurse or a hospice provider. You might be able to live that archetype through being a teacher or through being a barista or through blogging. That archetype can come through many many ways. And that's usually something that we're born with. That's an essence of our soul about how we express out into the world. If you don't feel identified with that archetype, if you don't feel like you're a caregiver, it's not going to be the first thing that is expressed out while you're out in your world. So to bring this back around, if you have a job in - let's just say you're a blogger, you will naturally tie into your gifts that you were born with, such as teacher or leader or inspirer or caregiver, through your writing, when you feel more connected with the archetype of your individual purpose. Does that make sense? Slade: Hmm.. oh yeah! Actually I really love this. I love the archetypes, and that's a good filter to view this from. Because it's sort of like an ingredient, like you said it's an essence, and you can put that essence in a lot of different places. Right? Like it sort of comes out of you no matter where we put you. If you're a nurturer, or a natural cheerleader, it doesn't really matter if you're literally on a sports team or you're just working in a bank. Michelle: That's right. Slade: It's gonna kind of express itself to the people around you, right? Michelle: Right. And where I see people get a little disrupt or feel disengaged with Purpose is when they're trying to chase it around their work. So if you know that you're a caregiver then you're suddenly like rolling your eyes and thinking, 'Ah, I gotta go be a nurse.' Well what you said is totally on point. That no, start with what you're already doing in your life and notice how caregiving shows up. Or notice how cheerleading shows up. When you start noticing what you're already doing in all areas of your life, you'll feel more connected. And as you start feeling more connected, then you're willing to express it more. You're willing - because then you have proof that yes, this is who I am, right? The world becomes our mirror and we go, 'Yes, I am a cheerleader.' This is awesome. People respond to this. And then we do more of it naturally. Slade: Hmm... So what else do you think people tend to kind of get wrong when they go looking for their Purpose? Like you said, when they go chasing it and they get off track, what's some other... 101 bungles... Michelle: Yeah. I'm the perfect poster child for this, right? We always teach what we learn, or we teach what we need to learn, whatever that saying is. So a great example is, I had a period of my life when I became very engaged with my artistic side of myself. And I loved painting, and doing all kinds of creative endeavors and I spent hours and hours... I had some luxury of time back then, and spent a lot of time developing my creative self and my artistic self and I went to workshops and I had some shows and I suddenly had this light bulb - wow this must be my Purpose. And so I decided, I set up shop, I set up my own art exhibits, I suddenly was investing in getting things framed and having to sell things and then I was asked to do a couple of commissions and I'm like, oh man, I hate this so much. It's like, my passion and my creative expression suddenly turned into a job. Because I had mistakenly thought my Purpose was related to my passion. And I can have a passion for art that isn't necessarily my Purpose. My Purpose is more about inspiration, teaching, leading, and I can do those things through my art, but the art itself was not my purpose. Slade: I'm actually kind of comforted to hear you say this because I live an entirely second life as a fiction author. So I have this, these two worlds, or two roles, and sometimes it just makes me uncomfortable trying to have to make them both be about the same thing. And I really just learn to kind of let them be two things and in my mind, my Purpose feels like it's related around Shift Your Spirits, it's what you know me for, it's very much what you do as well, inspiring, enabling, coaching, supporting people, teaching, telling stories. And then, you know, the other thing is an art. It is a passion and it's a hobby. It's also business but it doesn't have to be - everything doesn't have to be in one box, right? Michelle: Um hmm... let me ask you a question. In your fiction writing, do you feel as though you're bringing any of your inner Purpose like inspiring, and leading, and those things through any of your dialogue or your characters? I'm just curious. Could be yes or no. Slade: Yeah, I actually ask myself this question a lot because I feel like it's not so on the nose that I feel like my stories have to be inspirational reader's digest type fiction or something. Or like some - I don't write stories about people who are on a spiritual mission or anything like that. So I have asked myself this question and I think it's more about a deeper emotional kind of journey. The ability to give someone another life in another world to experience, which is so much of what I get out of reading fiction, and I think that there's a case to be made for story-telling being such a huge part of so many areas of what we do in the world whether it's ministry or teaching or just entertainment. Stories are big business and they're big soulful enterprises in and of themselves. So I think where I come down with it is I feel like my magic comes in the form of words. And I have always had a gift for storytelling and sometimes that includes hosting someone like you and creating a platform for you to tell a story. You know what I'm saying? Michelle: Yes, that's beautiful. Slade: Yeah and I can make a case that we're all storytellers and, I do tell some of my intuitive training students a lot that I think intuitives - storytellers make great intuitives. People who speak symbolic language have an ability to take that vocabulary into a lot of different vocations. So, again, not to get too much in the weeds about myself personally, but we're coming back to this idea that it's an essence that you already have and it's something that you can take into anywhere we drop you. Right? Like, ultimately if you're wiling to. Michelle: That's right. And I just want to circle back around with you because you also blog and you write and you've been doing this a long time and obviously these podcasts. So you have a gift with words and that writing and podcasting is just one way you're choosing to express that gift. You could choose to express that gift maybe in song writing, or maybe something that I haven't even thought of. Writing copy. You're just choosing to express your gift of a way with words in these platforms right now. Doesn't mean blogging suddenly is your Purpose. Slade: Right, yes. Exactly. And I have had periods where I was a song writer and I was a - I've done different kinds of artistic pursuits just like you were talking about. The difference between kind of your creativity and your passion and your art and then you can, you can or you can not choose to express that in combination with a Purpose or in combination with a job. I tell people all the time sometimes the greatest way to ruin your passion is to turn it into a business. Michelle: Yeah! Like my art! Exactly. Slade: So when I was thinking about the fact that I was going to be talking to you today and I thought, you know, this is an area of expertise for you, that you've gone even deeper in than I have, but I was trying to think of my listeners and kind of where they fall on this question. Because like I said, it's nearly always a component of any reading that I do. And I was trying to think of, how can I ask questions that the people listening would ask if they were sitting here in front of the microphone and I kind of identified - there's a few different people that are at different stages of asking themselves this question. So I wondered if you would indulge me and let me ask you kind of a question, there's kind of three different angles. And I wanted to ask for advice for each one of those people. Are you game for that? Michelle: I'm game! Slade: Okay! Michelle: Let's see where it goes! Slade: So, the first one is the person who has no clue what their Purpose is. They really feel like just the canvas is blank, and that's a very terrifying feeling. You know, the blank page and you don't, something's supposed to be written on there and you don't know what it is. So what do you say to that person who has no clue what their Purpose might be? Michelle: Yeah, great. So and this comes up a lot with the people I work with, who maybe their kids are now gone, or their job is over or they're retiring and they feel like, now what? But it can happen with people of all ages for a variety of reasons. And the first thing that I want to tell the listeners is really to reassure them that it really doesn't matter if you know your Purpose. It's like it doesn't matter if you can see the ocean. It's still there. Your Purpose is there. Now you may feel a little frustrated that you don't know what it is. You may feel disconnected to it. But it's there. It's inside of you. So I would encourage listeners who are in this space to just breathe in to the fact that they are alive on the planet, they have a Purpose even if they don't know what it is. And allow it. Allow the expression of their Purpose to be shown to them over some time. In my book it's a 28-day process of journalling and asking questions. But the first stage of that is to live with the affirmation that I am already living my Purpose. Slade: Okay. That's awesome. What do you say to the person who kind of already has a clue what it is, right? They know deep down in their heart what their Purpose is. They feel that calling but maybe they're in a state of fear or procrastination, you know, they're sitting in the cubicle at work and they're dissatisfied with what they're doing and they know what their heart wants to do or what they're being called to do in some way. What does she do next? How does she get started? Michelle: So first I would encourage not the DOING of it. And I would really encourage the BEING of it. Because I think what happens is we skip steps. We're like, 'Okay I know that I'm supposed to be out there speaking to the world.' Well speaking again is a doing. It's not a Purpose. So is the Purpose really that you would like to inspire people with the message? Is your Purpose that you feel like you're a leader, that you have a calling to change other people's lives through leading or through inspiration or - it's tricky because it's like you have a gift for speaking and that's the gift and that could be how your Purpose is done and expressed in the world but we gotta go first underneath that - what the BEING is. And so, I would encourage people who know deep inside that they're supposed to go speak, that comes up a lot with my clients. "I know I'm supposed to go speak." Be out there on stage. Be more visible. I'd encourage you first to tap into what is it that your call - what is it that calls that part of yourself? Are you feeling like you're here to lead? And then keep going into that energy and express it more and more in what you do right now. So if you are called to lead, do that in the job you have right now. Do that with your family. Do that as you move about the world. And as you're deepening that confidence in yourself, it's amazing how opportunities start opening up to allow you to do more of how you want to express that feeling in the world. Slade: Okay. These are good. I'm having some epiphanies around this stuff. So I've got one more. It's a little challenging. And I can actually think of a couple people that I know that are peers that are out there who might be listening, who - okay, what do you say to the person who knows what his Purpose is, maybe he's been doing it for awhile, who's been working at it, and then suddenly he's not seeing the "success" with it that he had expectations for? What's going on with that person, when they feel like they're, they know what they're supposed to do, but for some reason it's not taking off the way that they think, "Oh! It's my Purpose. I'm doing it, therefore the wings should just spread open and I should fly." What do you say to the person when that's not happening? Michelle: So, Purpose is being, and Purpose is not success-driven. So Purpose is back to how do you express your love in the world? How do you express yourself out into the world? If you were then taking that and let's just pretend that you're here to inspire other people and your chosen way to do that is to become a public speaker, then you have to learn the business of speaking, you have to learn the nuances, you have to understand how to book gigs, how to write contracts, you have to then go learn the pieces of running that business if that's choosing, if that's how you're going to choose to express your Purpose of inspiration out into the world. But again, and then I do business coaching as well, so I can speak to this. Your Purpose is how you're expressing in the world in all areas of your life and so if you're putting, 'OMG, my Purpose is all wrapped up in this business,' you're going to have heartache and downfall because business has natural ups and down cycles. And so you've got to come back and be grounded in who you are. I want to come back for a minute because I think there's a piece here that we've tiptoed around a little bit, Slade. And that is, people feel scared of their Purpose. Like if Slade, you know, think back ten or twelve years ago and if you suddenly knew that you were here to inspire people about Purpose and how they can become intuitive, you may not know, have known how to do that. All those years ago. And there might have been some fear for you. Slade: Oh yes. Michelle: And so... Right? It's all of us. And so if we can go into what is it that we are expressing and continue to do that every day we strengthen the muscle of accepting who we are. If someone were to tell me that I'd be on the telesummits with thousands of people and coaching some fairly well-known names out there, ten years ago, I would've been terrified. And go, 'No, I don't have those skills. That's not me. I don't have that confidence. I don't have that knowingness,' right? And so we start by giving ourselves either small steps or big steps, whatever it is, but confirmation that we're on the right track. Because that builds that muscle that gives us our own acceptance. I think when we don't accept the gifts that we were born with, it's really difficult to go be - feel successful, but feeling successful is a life, not just a business. It's how do we feel in our life? Do we feel fulfilled? So I think I want to come back around to - it's the feeling of being fulfilled that I think we chase, and money seems to represent that and business success represents that. But let's come back to how are we expressing, how are we ful - being fulfilled, how are we helping, how are we serving, and then maybe it's business coaching that this person really needs. Slade: Great advice. Thank you so much. So tell us about Spark. What is this? Michelle: So I think you know I've played a lot with this idea of Purpose, passion, fulfillment creativity, and the word that sums all of that up for me is Spark. And so I've created a system for helping us all keep that spark alive inside. I don't know how you feel, but you know we're just on the other side of another mass shooting here in the United States, we've had hurricanes, there's fires, there's wars all over the world. It feels like it's pretty difficult sometimes to stay grounded that we can even make a difference with all these world problems. And so, getting in touch with our own spark is the beginning of feeling alive and then feeling like we can help in whatever way that looks like to us. Big or small, helping the local food community, helping a stray cat, helping stop genocide and wars, wherever it is that you personally feel like you're called to help. It starts with connecting with that spark inside of us. Because when that flame starts dying out, it's really difficult to even just get off the couch, right? We become glued to the news, we get into overwhelm. So the system I've created are always different areas where we learn to connect in with our own spark so that we can express more fully our authentic selves. And, like I say in this book, Purpose book, which is the first step of the system, how can we not be authentic, right? We are authentic. We just don't always recognize what that is. And then we try to cover it up, or we have our baggage or we eat too much or we do all kinds of self sabotaging things because we don't really know who we are. And so this system takes us through some self-reflection. I'm not here to tell anybody who they are. It's all inside. We just have to uncover it. We have to recognize it. We have to love who we are, you know? It's that thing that we gotta love ourselves first. And it's true, but we have to learn who we are so that we can love ourselves. Slade: So the book part component of this that you're talking about, it's a new book you have out called Purpose: The Alignment Guide : 28 Days of Inspiration, Reflection, Intention and Creative Expression. Now this sounds more like a program than just a book. So explain to us how this book works. Michelle: Yeah, it is. It's 28 days. Each day, wel, each week there's an affirmation. The very first one is 'I am already living my Purpose.' And there's coloring exercises ,activities, writing prompts, and the book takes you through my thoughts about why I believe we're all already living our Purpose. Just a short chapter on that. And then it encourages you to reflect on how you are living your Purpose day to day. There are daily affirmations, daily questions, the book takes you through how does the earth energy affect you? I'm finding it very interesting right now with things like fires and hurricanes and so forth to not be affected by that, and I think a lot of us are affected by intense weather or even just a big snowstorm. And so, how does that affect your day to day living, and does that make you go more internal or does that cause you to be angry in the world? And just having a place to write down and explore these feelings helps you understand and learn more of who you really are. Who we are at the core. So the book is a 28-day exploration with writing prompts for every day. Journaling and loads of cool coloring pages and there's also a coloring book that you can download at no cost or purchase to go along with this with all the really cool images. And the images are a little edgy. They're not like flowers and butterflies. They're what I call kind of galactic images with weird eyes and the sun going sideways because I think that's how I feel right now. Like everything just a little big sideways. And so I want to acknowledge that and express that. And the Purpose is just the first workbook in a 9-month system. So there's 8 more books coming out, each one exactly the same format. So it's a 9-month program that I have on helping you connect back in with who you are. Slade: So why is it 28 days specificially? Michelle: Yeah, so there's a couple of answers to that. It is a nice system of every week you look at a new affirmation and in this case, a new area of Purpose. And then we all need a day or two or three to just rest. So it's not like a month-long system. You can start this in the middle of the month, you can start it in the middle of the week, you just work through the days and then you, at the end of the 28 days, it's a moon cycle, it's a natural cycle. You just rest, let it all integrate, allow your subconscious to process everything you've been thorough. It's like savassana in yoga. You just incorpirate everything that you have learned and thought about and doodled and processed over the last four weeks. And then after a few more days, you can start again on the next book. Day 1 and go through another 28-day process. Slade: Very cool. It actually would be fun to do that with the moon cycle if you wanted. I'm a bit of a witch so I like to do everything like ritualized around the moon calendar. It just, it gives it a certain kind of structure that feels, I don't know, it feels empowering, so I like to play with that. That's very cool. Michelle: Yes! Yeah! Slade: So, not to compare this to anything in any way other than a compliment, but I really, as I was looking at the material, it appealed to me in much the same way that the artist way appealed to me. I think that there's a certain type of person who may have done that years ago back in the day who would really be turned on by your book. Thank you! Thank you. I actually mention Julia Cameron in my dedication. She's a huge mentor of mine. I have interviewed her a couple of times. I've been to a live workshop of hers. I bow down to her as one of the creative goddesses of the world, so thank you, I take that as a huge compliment. Slade: Oh, that's very cool. We share her as a hero for sure. Yeah, so I definitely think that you can make a connection with the type of work that you're doing and so if there's anybody who - because I know once you've done something before, maybe you don't really want to go back through that process again, but this would be something new, and it's a little bit shifted of course, around this idea of aligning with Purpose, but the experiential part of it feels similar. In an exciting kind of way. Have you had any ideas about doing like a group around it? Like a Facebook group or something? Michelle: Yes! So - thank you for asking. Yes, and I have one going right now. So theSpark.love group on Facebook. You can come and join for free. No charge. There are people uploading their pictures and their doodling and I answer questions in there, and so thespark.love is also my website. That's the name of the group on Facebook. So just come join and then obviously I offer paid classes and I have a live retreat coming up in May, so obviously I'm doing this also as part of my own coaching business, but everybody come and join at least for free so we can get to know each other and I can help you through the process. And then if there's a next step, happy to talk to you about that. Slade: Oh that's very cool. I am a big believer in the social power of doing things in groups. If I have the opportunity to take something in a class environment I always go for that because I can accomplish so much more when I have interaction with other people around it. I'm a big believer in that so basically you're saying somebody can go and sign up for thespark.love Facebook group and the only thing that they would really require would be the book, which is not a huge investment, if they wanted to really participate in this and plug in with this whole concept, right? Michelle: That's right. $16.95 on Amazon, and nothing else. Just connect in the group because there's other people that are having conversations about Purpose and that's always a cool thing. Slade: Well I'll definitely pull all your links so anybody who is listeining can either go to my blog or they can go direclty to the podcast feed and just click on those. And go and sign up. You also have a free course that people can download on your webiste, correct? Michelle: I do. There's a Purpose course on my website, there's the coloring book, there's a couple of meditations. The website is again, thespark.love because it's how we express our spark as love out into the world. That's the biggest expression of who we are. And so, yes, I have all kinds of free gifts. I have a downloadable course. Come get your gifts, thank you! Thank you for this promotion, yeah. I'm so good at promoting other people but we're all like that, right? Thank you. Slade: Yeah, well there's some very specific places to jump and plug in to what you're doing and it doesn't cost anything other than your interest, you know? So it's a very powerful and easy thing to promote. I do want to ask you before we wrap up the conversation. One of the things that I really like to ask those of you who've been around working in this space, for several years now. Is there anything that you feel is a message that's kind of missing from the conversation on personal development or something that needs to be brought forward a little bit? Michelle: Yeah, good question. So I am so over self-improvement. Like, there was a time in my life when I'm like, I wanted to get my hands on everything around self-improvement and personal development. These days I think it's - the conversation at least that I like to have is, we don't have to improve anything. We can choose to explore our gifts and develop them if we want to. We can always learn more things. But it's really about what, uncovering what's already there. It's really about going inside rather than looking outside and the more I go deeper in this, the more I know that to be true for at least myself and many of the people I work with is, how can we really uncover who we are rather than looking outside for answers? And so, in this book, even though I'm here having this conversation with you, it all comes back to what is true for the individual, not what I'm saying, not what you're saying, not what my book says. These are all tools to help you explore more deeply what's true for you. Slade: I love that approach. Thank you for sharing that. And Michelle, thank you so much for coming on and taking the time and having a conversation with me around this topic. I know everybody's going to enjoy listening to it. Michelle: Slade, I love you. It's been an honor to connect with you over all these years and I'm looking forward to the next one. Thank you for having me. OUTRO Thanks again for listening to the Shift Your Spirits podcast. For show notes, links, transcripts and all the past episodes please visit shiftyourspirits.com You can subscribe in iTunes or Stitcher or whatever app you use to access podcasts. If you’d like to get an intuitive reading with me, or download a free ebook and meditation to help you connect with your guides please go to sladeroberson.com and if you’re interested in my professional intuitive training program, you can start the course for free by downloading the Attunement at automaticintuition.com BEFORE I GO I promised to leave you a message in answer to a question or a concern you may have. So take a moment to think about that — hold it in your mind or speak it out loud. I’ll pause for just a few seconds….right…now. 1…2…3…4 MESSAGE Have you seen or heard any owls lately? Any owl totems or symbols crossing your path. Owl energy is about the ability to see everything around you, to find the real truth in the shadows. This symbol can mean that someone around you is trying to throw you off or disguise his or her real intentions. Make sure you’re not lying to yourself right now. If you’re being delusional, wake up. Not facing the truth in one area of your life will block you from moving forward in any other area. Look into your darkness a little bit. That’s where you’ll find the way out. And I’ll talk to you later.

Show notes at: https://www.pencilkings.com/podcast-home/ “With what I’ve produced at the Evolve Art Academy, I’m very confident I could submit a portfolio to a prestigious art school and get accepted. Because that’s how much progress I’ve had.” ~ Michelle Lopez. Want to know how to become a better artist...but just don’t know where to start? Whether you’re a complete beginner or someone who wants to take their art skills further, we think you’ll find this week’s interview pretty interesting… Because you’re about to hear how Evolve Artist student, Michelle Lopez, went from being a novice artists to one who gets paid for portrait commissions...in just four months! Interview Chapters [00:37-05:07] Introduction and Overview Your host, Mitch Bowler, introduces today’s guest, Evolve Artist Student, Michelle Lopez. In this chapter, you’ll hear why listening to Kevin Murphy’s Pencil Kings podcast interview inspired her to quit her job as an IT consultant and enrol at The Art Academy...and how she made incredible progress during her time there. [05:33-06:16] Why did Michelle Want to Learn how to Become a Better Artist? Deciding upon a change of career can be pretty daunting at any stage of your life, but even more so when you’re taking a leap into the complete unknown. So what made Michelle decide to swap repairing computers for becoming a realistic painter? In this section, you’ll hear how Kevin Murphy’s art program helped her develop confidence in her abilities and make real progress as an artist. [07:12-07:52] Why did Michelle Think The Art Academy was Right for her? Like many aspiring artists, Michelle had already tried various college courses and community art groups to help her develop her creative skills...but they’d all fallen flat. So what made her decide this course was right for her...and did it meet her expectations? [08:27-08:49] How did Michelle Know This Course was Right for her? Thinking something is right for you and knowing something is right for you are two very different things...so how long did it take for Michelle to realize she’d definitely made the right decision by enrolling in The Art Academy? [08:57-09:45] How far did Michelle Travel to Take This Course? Enrolling at The Art Academy wasn’t exactly like joining a class at her local community college for Michelle. Instead, she had a 10-hour journey to make from her home to New Jersey before she could get started. So, what was this experience like for her? [09:58-11:32] What Were Michelle’s First Weeks Like at The Art Academy? Starting something new can feel like a daunting experience, but the team at The Art Academy made Michelle feel welcome from the moment she walked through the door. So what were her first few weeks studying with Kevin like? In this chapter, you’ll hear how she want from drawing basic shapes and learning shading techniques to creating a fully-rendered drawing in less than two weeks. [11:48-12:33] What Were the Beginner Exercises Like for Michelle? Because Michelle had already had some art lessons, you might have thought the beginner lessons would be too basic for her. However, she discovered that she’d actually missed out on learning many of these fundamentals in previous classes...and that learning to be meticulous and patient was one of the best ways to improve her art skills. [13:41-14:10] How Many Hours did Michelle Study for Each day? Once you really get into making art, it’s amazing how the hours fly by without you noticing. So how many hours each day did Michelle dedicate to drawing and painting while at The Art Academy? [15:22-17:42] Michelle Worked Hard...but did she Enjoy Herself, too? Hard work and enjoyment don’t always go hand in hand, but Michelle found she had a completely positive experience while pushing herself to improve as an artist. You’ll find out why in this section. [17:52-19:05] Were There Ever Times When she Wanted to Quit? Even though she had a positive experience, there were times when Michelle felt the pressure and wanted to quit. So how did she get over this? And how did Kevin and his team help her push through those roadblocks and make real progress? [20:37-21:36] Why is This Program so Effective? Kevin Murphy’s art program has a 100% success rate. So what makes his methods so much more effective than all the others out there? [21:53-23:17] What was Michelle’s Study Schedule Like? Michelle made incredible progress in less than four months at The Art Academy, but what was her study schedule like during this time? [23:35-26:13] How Much Progress did Michelle Make? Michelle entered The Art Academy as a beginner artist and left with a portfolio of work which she’s confident would get her into the most prestigious art schools in the country. Find out how she did it in this chapter. [26:39-28:28] How do People React to Michelle’s Work now? Some of Michelle’s friends and family were sceptical at first when she first told them she was going away for a while to study art. So what are their reactions like now? In this chapter, you’ll hear why Michelle now feels she’s on the right path to develop her career as an artist and has even started taking commissions for her work. [29:07-30:12] What’s Next for Michelle? So, with four months at the Art Academy under her belt, what’s next for Michelle? In this section, you’ll hear how she plans to develop her skills further and work on her art career. [31:57-33:28] What Does Michelle Think of the Evolve Artist Realistic Art Program? Michelle left her home town for four months to study at The Art Academy, but this just isn’t practical for everyone. So that’s why Pencil Kings has teamed up with Kevin Murphy to create the Evolve Artist Realistic Art Program - a new way to study that incorporates all the elements of his art education from the comfort of your own home. But does Michelle think this will be just as effective for other people who want to know how to become a better artist? In this chapter, you’ll find out why she’s also decided to join this program and where to see examples of her progress on Instagram. [34:27-36:37] How to Find out More About the Evolve Artist Program Ready to find out more about how to become a better artist by joining the Evolve Artist Program? This final chapter contains everything you need to know.

Intro: Hi! This is Glenn McQueenie, and welcome to 20 Minutes of Insider Secrets of Successful Niches. This is where you learn the insider secrets to dominate your target market. You'll learn to work with high-margin, super-happy clients, and build a tribe of loyal, raving fans for your business. So excited to have you join me today, so sit back and enjoy 20 Minutes of Insider Secrets of Successful Niches. Glenn: Well hello, and welcome again to another of my podcasts in my Success Series formula. I'm just so thrilled to have Michelle Morgan join me on this podcast. How are you, Michelle? Michelle: I'm great, Glenn. Thanks for having me. Glenn: Oh, it's my pleasure. You're just of so much respect and you've got so much wisdom to share that I'm really excited about this call. So before we start, I just want to give everyone a little background about Michelle. She began her journey as a young woman to be a model and enter into the fashion industry. She got a diploma from Fashion Arts from Humber College and then continued in that industry for over 15 years, working with a lot of different modeling agencies in Toronto. She continued after that to explore, “What do I really want to do?” and decided that, deep down, there was this passion for getting into real estate. So she went to OREA, she got her license, and since then, Michelle has just been very successful, growing a great business. She started out individually, and she's worked with teams, and now what she's done is really found this really neat niche called Women Building Wealth. And that's the niche that I'm so excited to talk about today. So Michelle, why don't you tell the audience just a little bit about your journey into building a really cool business? Michelle: Sure. I feel like in order for the audience to understand, I'm going to take it back a little bit, just to understand where I'm coming from. So my parents were really interested in real estate. They were investors. We had tenants. They bought and sold their own properties, and I had that household where, on Boxing Day, all the other kids went to the mall, and my parents somehow found the one open house that was open. We just were always looking at homes, so I guess I probably didn't even realize it back then, but when I look back now, I was that kid that was always sitting at the table, feet dangling off the chair, and watching the deal happen. And it kind of just seeped into my pores. So, as time went on, my dad would tell me, “You know, you probably should get into real estate.” And I was always like, “No, Dad. I'm going to be in fashion.” Which, you heard, I did proceed and continue with, and I loved it. And I still have an appreciation for that industry. But at the time, I probably didn't realize how much real estate had actually seeped into my pores. So fast-forward, I found myself a single mom, realizing that, as much as I loved the fashion industry, I did want to make a change. And I wanted to love what I was doing as much, if not more, than fashion. I got my license. I did that in 2008. So I'd fast-forward then to about a year and a half ago, and I had done the Double Your Income Coaching with you, Glenn, and that really showed me some patterns in my business. I was doing well in real estate, and you had me really circle in on who my clients were, and I learned that the second largest group of people I was helping with real estate purchases were women, and that was second to couples. I helped couples, young couples in particular, buy and sell their homes. And then I had this group of women that were coming to me from all walks of life, all ages, status. They wanted real estate investing advice, and they would go on to purchase their home almost in an investor mentality, I'd say. And they were purchasing these homes on their own. And it was just inspiring to me, because I could relate to this group of women, again as a single woman and as a single mom. And probably because of my background with the real estate, it just led to me growing and us brainstorming into this whole niche marketing business. And so it was really cool, and then Build Her Wealth was born. And the goal really was to help women build wealth through real estate. And I could really help them, and I just became passionate about it, because reward-wise, I could help them fulfill this goal. And we'd sit down and say, “Well, what do you want?” And they're like, “Well, this is my 5 or 10-year goal.” Maybe it was a retirement goal, but whatever it was, I could master a plan through real estate investing for them to help them accomplish the goal. So today, Build Her Wealth, it's a niche market real estate business. My clients are mostly women in that field, and then I get to meet some really cool, smart, funny, they're really articulate, they're educated, they're hardworking women, all really with the same goal of wanting to use real estate as a tool to help them build their financial future. So yeah, that's pretty cool. Glenn: So, first of all, how do you guys meet? What is the format of the group? Michelle: So usually, we have seminars. We have fun with it. So we have Wealth and Wine nights, and it could be the wine that brings the ladies there, but I won't say that that's why, and we just have seminars that really help them understand what the different types of real estate investing opportunities are for them. So again, it's women from all different walks of life. So some have maybe never invested in real estate before, and then others might be in their journey. So whether we're there to show you how to invest in real estate, or help support your journey, we're all there as women, we're going through the steps. And then I'll bring in professionals to help with that, whether it's a mortgage broker that needs to come in to answer some questions, a lawyer, an accountant, what have you. I just bring in the professional that will also help them attain their goals. Glenn: So I think that's just so brilliant, that format you created of Build Her Wealth, where you get people, usually single women – not all single women – but a lot of women. And I love that edge and attitude that you bring to it, too. It's like, “Listen. You're responsible for your own wealth here. You don't need a man. You don't need a woman.” If you want to become free, and have freedom in the real sense of time, and so you can spend more time in relationships with other people, and find your purpose, what better way than to get a group of like-minded women together into a format of building their wealth through real estate investing? And I love how you bring them together, and you bring in the wine element. And it's really almost like a book club, but it's a women building wealth club. And the only people who are going to want to come to that club are the people who want to build their wealth. So you've created such a great magnet for only the people who come there. You'll never attract the people who don't want to attract wealth. And you'll just find, when you're creating your tribe, as I see you building your niche tribe, that birds of a feather flock together. And if you can be the ringleader of it, which you are, it's just really amazing. So what's been the payoff, just over the last year and a half? What have you learned from going really deep into your niche? Michelle: I'd say really the payoff is that I had to figure out more about me. So once I did that and figured out what my big “why” is and understanding my big “why” was helping people. So the big payoff really is helping. So I have the niche market, I get to sit down, really understand my clients, their lives, their goals, sometimes it's their fears, or sometimes it's their pain. But, “what's your ultimate dream? What are your wishes? What do you want for your family and your loved ones?” And then I get to really help them create this plan for them, their financial futures, how to help build their goals, how to create hope, and it just becomes almost a lifelong bond. And I guess that's the best payoff. I've learned a lot about myself, and I've learned I love helping people, and it's rewarding to then help that person, and then see it through all the way to the finish line. So that's awesome. Glenn: That is awesome. So why do you think that the conventional wisdom of two hours of cold calling or door-knocking to people they don't even know. Like a lot of agents seem to want to follow this lead. That's the only lead-generation strategy. And I love how you've kind of broken that mould, and you're doing what you love to do. But why do you think it's so prevalent, rather than your more focused approach? Michelle: Well, I mean, I come from that background. So I mean, I came from a background of door-knocking every single day. I door-knocked Monday-Friday, 9:30-11:30 a.m., and it did help my business. I mean, I don't know that one is wrong, per se, or better than the other, but I find for me, because in our industry we do have to get in front of people, and we do have to talk to people about our business and let them know about us, or they're not going to. So I think that the general thought is, that's a great way to do it. And again, it has helped my business. However, as an individual agent, and as a business owner, it is important for agents to understand that there's a shift occurring, and you do need to be aware that teams and niche market agents are statistically gaining market share. So on the flip side of that, consumers are noticing, and they're looking for agents that fit their specific needs, rather than maybe the generalist agent. So it was more me wanting to, in my case, just wanting to get in front of that shift, rather than chase the shift that I could see was about to occur, and grow the niche market. So yeah, I get it. I come from that background. But it is going to change, and it's changing now. Glenn: Yeah, and I don't think you're saying “Don't do it.” And I think we're probably on the same page on this. If that's what you really love to do, then go and do it, if that's what your natural abilities are. But if you're dragging yourself to do it, and you don't like it and you hate it, what a miserable way to wake up every morning and have to do something you hate, instead of what you're doing. I just love listening to you when you're saying, like, “I just want to help people.” And when you help enough people get what they want, Zig Ziglar says, then you get what you want. And it's because it's a perfect transfer. You're coming from contribution first. You're creating value first. You're creating this whole seminar series. And if some of those people in the class don't buy, it's not like you get kicked out. It's like you still feel like you're on your purpose. Michelle: So true. And I think, too, real estate agents, we got into the market, or into the industry because most of us wanted some form of freedom there. Most of us did not want to be in that typical 9-5 scenario, and to put yourself in a scenario where you wake up every morning and still do not like what you do, is unfortunate – so don't do it. Glenn: So what would be the first step for someone listening to this podcast right now? What advice would you give them if you were coaching them, on how they should find their niche? What would you say? Michelle: Well for me, finding my niche actually came through you. The steps that you have written about in your McQueenie Method book were the steps that I took to help me find Build Her Wealth. So, truthfully, I mean, I would say, sure, go out there and learn as much and get educated, but that was my route that I took. So I would have to say The McQueenie Method steps. And I mean, Glenn and I, we sat down and we brainstormed, we talked about it. And you helped me so much along this journey, just really almost like a light bulb moment: You love to help people, and you identify with women. So go get the book, and do the steps step by step by step, because that's exactly what helped me get to where I am. Glenn: Wow. Thanks for the plug! I appreciate it, Michelle. Michelle: Yeah. You can pay me later. Glenn: So, if you're saying to somebody, apart from the book, which I appreciate, but if you were saying to somebody, what would just be that first step? I mean, to me – I don't want to put words in your mouth – but to me, it's more about just finding who you are, and being comfortable with that, and then taking those strengths to the marketplace. Michelle: You really have to figure out who you are. So that's exactly where we started. Why did you get into real estate? What is your big “why?” I mean, learning that, and you kind of know it, but you have to keep asking yourself “Why? Why? Why?” And you peel away these layers, and you start to realize why are you where you are? And for me, it was my twin daughters. That's my big “why.” That's my motivation to wake up every morning and do the things I do. And you really have to figure out why. What motivates you, why are you where you are, and where do you want to be, and how are you going to get there. It's almost like an onion. You're peeling away these layers, and then it's just like this “A-ha!” moment, like I said, that makes you go “Right. This is where I need to be.” And that's my niche.Glenn: That's a great way to look at it, Michelle. What were some of the roadblocks that you encountered on your journey? I mean, it didn't just go “Poof! Magic! Got my niche!” Even just getting this whole tribe together, what were some of the roadblocks you faced?Michelle: The biggest roadblock for me is if I would be losing business because I was targeting a female market only. I had a hard time, even though I loved the idea, I had a hard time with the concept that it was only going to be women building wealth. It was Build Her Wealth. And would I in turn lose business? And the answer to that ended up being no. I had to get out of my own way though, and realize that, funnily enough, I was getting more followers, and it was not holding back my business. I mean, if anything, it was just this group of women, almost like a sisterhood of women coming together, lifting each other up. And truth be told, I've had a couple men come to the events, and it's all been good. Like I said, not all women are single, so I have had a couple women bring their significant other or their husband with them to the event, and it's been great. I don't only want to see women invest in real estate and not help men. That was not the thought. I was worried that it would look that way. But in fact, it did not in any way, shape, or form, slow down my business. I think my roadblock was more my mindset and my own worry and my own fear of it, and once I let that go, then it grew. And you just let it go. You let it go where it's going. Let it grow, and let it go where it's taking you, and let it be authentic. Glenn: And I think as this keeps growing, you could almost build complementary niches and build an even bigger business. I mean, you could license this idea in every city in North America. There's going to be women who want to build their wealth, and as that keeps on growing, couldn't you do a Build His Wealth? Michelle: Already thought about it! Glenn: Yeah! And isn't that the beautiful thing, once you go really narrow into one niche, and then you discover all the nuances and the wisdom inside of it, you start to see the bigger possibility of how you can go wide within that niche. And I know I find when I'm coaching agents that the biggest problem is what you mentioned earlier, when you said, “I was worried that I was limiting myself, and I was cutting myself off.” And I start thinking, if you look at a great sculpture, it started as a block of marble. It was really the artist subtracting everything until they got their finished product. And I think it's almost subtraction and then multiplication. So you subtract, subtract, subtract, go super-narrow in your niche, and then you multiply the niche around it. And I just love to hear you say that, and that's really what you're building. This isn't just going to be one business. This is like, “I'm going to build this, and it's going to be great.” And it's going to give you even more freedom. And then, as you build it, you just get to help more people. And I think, for you, Michelle, because I know you, that keeps you on your purpose. And at the end of the day, that's what you want to do. Michelle: Very true. That's very true. Glenn: So what's the one piece of advice that you would give aspiring agents right now in creating their niche market? Michelle: I think it goes back to what we were saying. Really figure out your big “why.” Really, what you did was you helped me figure out what my Unique Ability was. And it wasn't something that I had to come up with on my own. I think the exercise was that we had to ask our loved ones and friends what they thought our Unique Ability was. And so it was very interesting to get these letters back of people letting you know all the things that they thought you were great at. For me, I got a lot of “Well, when I'm in your presence, you make me feel important” or “You make me feel listened to.” So you start to learn through other people what your Unique Ability is, and from that, those are things you don't even have to try at. You're just good at doing that. And then you have to figure out your “why” and really zero in on what makes you happy. And again, I mean, you really are going to have to pay me for this, but I've got to say The McQueenie Method really helped because the steps are all outlined there. And those were the steps that I took. And it was literally, “Own Your Niche, Own Your Market,” right? So it really helped to know what the steps are and then just go step by step. You learn about you and figure out what your next steps are to help you get there. And your niche really just shows up. It's like all of a sudden, you're like “Wow.” You do the steps, and then you figure out your niche. And it's mind-blowing. Glenn: And I love the way you did it in a way, too, because you really reverse engineered it. It wasn't, “Oh, this is what the marketplace wants.” You started hearing from the marketplace that there were a lot of women in your position who didn't really have a place to go to find out about real estate investing, because most of them think it's “I've got to put money in my RSPs,” because the financial industry does dominate the ad and mind share there. But once you start hearing that these people are looking for a forum, you almost planned it from their point of view, like, “What's keeping them awake at night?” And then I love how you're just like, “Well, let's get them all together, and let's build a group.” Because the biggest gift you can give somebody is the feeling that they're not alone, is to get them out of their own isolation. They're not alone. And even the people listening to this podcast will be thinking that, too. “Oh, I'm not alone anymore. Other people have felt the way I have.” And then, as you got the group together, they're like, “Wow. Now we have a whole new group of friends who all have a common interest.” And it's no different than the local book club. It's just people who want to do what they want to do. And I think that's the brilliance in what you've created, Michelle. Is there anything else that you'd like to add? I really appreciate your time. I know you're a really big deal, so is there any questions I didn't ask you, or anything you'd just like to add just before we wrap up? Michelle: You know what? I think the main thing is, just go out and do it and don't be afraid. Don't think to yourself that it's not possible or don't think that it will hinder your business. Just go out and do it. Because like I said, it's showing in numbers that the teams and the niche markets are taking over, and if you're an individual agent, you're going to love it, because not only am I helping the women, but I've got to say, they're helping me, too. In all of this, I have learned so much from them. And that I get to bring my daughters now to these events, and it's really because they're helping me pull together the events, and they're staying for it, and then I'm watching my daughters turn to me and say, “Well, you know what? I'm going to have to get an investment property.” That's just amazing, because my girls are now 20, and they're kind of challenging each other at, “Do you think we can get an investment property by 21?” Like it's amazing to see what it can even do, not only for yourself, but then your family, right? So it really does grow. The positive energy grows in your life. You love what you're doing. And when you love what you're doing, the business follows, and then you're just happier all around. So don't hold back, don't stop yourself. Get out of your own way, and go for it. Glenn: Wiser words have never been said. Thank you so much, Michelle. You are amazing. I've loved what you're creating and building, and I love just the exchange that's happening in that group. It's like a great friendship. I give to you, they give back to you, and everybody grows and gets better from it. So, you're the best. Thank you so much, Michelle. Have a great day. Michelle: Thank you, Glenn. You too. Take care. Bye! Closing: Thank you for listening to my 20-minute podcast on Insights of Successful Niches. My goal is to give you more financial freedom by helping you take your natural strengths to a target market of people you'd love to work with. You could find out more information by downloading my book for free for a limited time. The book's called “The McQueenie Method: Own Your Niche, Own Your Market” and you can download it at TheMcQueenieMethodbook.com. That's TheMcQueenieMethodbook.com. Imagine what it'd be like to spend two days with me in person to help you find your niche market. I will help you take your natural strengths and unique abilities to a target market of people you'd love to work with. You'll build a tribe of happy clients who become raving fans of your business. So, just go to TheMcQueenieMethod.com for upcoming dates. Thanks again and have a great day.

asset title: Lesson 23: Cool Little Words, Nicknames filename: tafalado_23.mp3 track number: 24/46 time: 9:11 size: 6.46 MB bitrate: 96 kbps Let's see if we have this right? Michelle's family gave her the nickname 'witch' because of how moody she became when under stress at school, right? Wow, that's a mean nickname, at least from a North American point of view. This lesson is a bit different in that we don't look at pronunciation directly, but we do look at the little extra words that people add to their speech, like, you know, umm, well, like, whatever, you know?DialogPortugueseMichelle: Cê sabe que os americanos acham estranho certos apelidos que a gente coloca nas pessoas.Valdo: Diga aí ... vem cá, eles não usam apelidos?Michelle: Então, veja só ... quando eu digo que meu apelido no Brasil é 'bruxa' ninguém acredita. Eles acham estranho, um pouco cruel, sabe?Valdo: Peraí ... eles não usam apelidos como 'gordo', 'magrela', 'baixinho', 'alemão'? Pô, isso é uma forma de demonstrar, tipo, amizade no Brasil, né?Michelle: Viu, não é que eles não usam apelidos aqui, mas é diferente, entende? Geralmente é só um diminutivo do nome, como 'Liz' para Elizabeth, 'Bob' para Robert, tá vendo?Valdo: Ah, tá ... não é um nome engraçado como os que a gente usa e que vem de uma característica física que a pessoa tenha, por exemplo. Ah, sei ... Bom, então a gente se fala mais tarde, falô?SpanishMichelle: Sabe que los americanos consideran raros los apodos que les damos nosotros a outros.Valdo: Dime, ven acá, ¿no utilizan ellos apodos?Michelle: Entonces, mira, cuando les digo que mi apodo en Brasil es 'bruja' nadie lo cree. Ellos piensan que es muy raro y un poco cruel, ¿sabe?Valdo: Espera, ¿no usan ellos apodos como 'gordo', 'flaquito', 'bajito', 'alemán'? Pues, eso es una forma de mostrarles, a ver, amistad en Brasil, ¿no?Michelle: 'Bob' para Robert, tá vendo?Ves, no es que no utilizan apodos aquí, pero es diferente, ¿sabe? Generalmente es una forma diminutivo del nombre, como 'Liz para Elizabeth, 'Bob' para Robert, ¿lo ves?Valdo: Está bien, no serúa un nombre chistoso como los que nosotros usamos, estos que vienen de las características físicas que la persona tenga por ejemplo. Bien, entonces podemos hablar más de eso más tarde, ¿está bien?EnglishMichelle: You know that Americans think it is strange the way we give nicknames to other people.Valdo: Come on, tell me, you mean they don't use nicknames?Michelle: So, look, when I tell them that my nickname in Brazil is 'witch' nobody believes it. They think it is strange and a little cruel, you know?Valdo: Hold on ... you mean they don't say things like 'fat', 'skinny', 'short', 'German'? Wow, this is the way that we show, you know, friendship in Brazil, right?Michelle: You know, it's not that they don't use nicknames, but it's different, you know? Generally they just use diminutive forms of a name like 'Liz for Elizabeth, 'Bob' for Robert, you see?Valdo: OK then, so it's not a funny name like the ones that we use that come from some physical characteristic that the person hás for example. I've got it, OK, we'll talk more later, OK?

Let's see if we have this right? Michelle's family gave her the nickname 'witch' because of how moody she became when under stress at school, right? Wow, that's a mean nickname, at least from a North American point of view. This lesson is a bit different in that we don't look at pronunciation directly, but we do look at the little extra words that people add to their speech, like, you know, umm, well, like, whatever, you know? Dialog Portuguese Michelle: Cê sabe que os americanos acham estranho certos apelidos que a gente coloca nas pessoas. Valdo: Diga aí ... vem cá, eles não usam apelidos? Michelle: Então, veja só ... quando eu digo que meu apelido no Brasil é 'bruxa' ninguém acredita. Eles acham estranho, um pouco cruel, sabe? Valdo: Peraí ... eles não usam apelidos como 'gordo', 'magrela', 'baixinho', 'alemão'? Pô, isso é uma forma de demonstrar, tipo, amizade no Brasil, né? Michelle: Viu, não é que eles não usam apelidos aqui, mas é diferente, entende? Geralmente é só um diminutivo do nome, como 'Liz' para Elizabeth, 'Bob' para Robert, tá vendo? Valdo: Ah, tá ... não é um nome engraçado como os que a gente usa e que vem de uma característica física que a pessoa tenha, por exemplo. Ah, sei ... Bom, então a gente se fala mais tarde, falô? Spanish Michelle: Sabe que los americanos consideran raros los apodos que les damos nosotros a outros. Valdo: Dime, ven acá, ¿no utilizan ellos apodos? Michelle: Entonces, mira, cuando les digo que mi apodo en Brasil es 'bruja' nadie lo cree. Ellos piensan que es muy raro y un poco cruel, ¿sabe? Valdo: Espera, ¿no usan ellos apodos como 'gordo', 'flaquito', 'bajito', 'alemán'? Pues, eso es una forma de mostrarles, a ver, amistad en Brasil, ¿no? Michelle: 'Bob' para Robert, tá vendo? Ves, no es que no utilizan apodos aquí, pero es diferente, ¿sabe? Generalmente es una forma diminutivo del nombre, como 'Liz para Elizabeth, 'Bob' para Robert, ¿lo ves? Valdo: Está bien, no serúa un nombre chistoso como los que nosotros usamos, estos que vienen de las características físicas que la persona tenga por ejemplo. Bien, entonces podemos hablar más de eso más tarde, ¿está bien? English Michelle: You know that Americans think it is strange the way we give nicknames to other people. Valdo: Come on, tell me, you mean they don't use nicknames? Michelle: So, look, when I tell them that my nickname in Brazil is 'witch' nobody believes it. They think it is strange and a little cruel, you know? Valdo: Hold on ... you mean they don't say things like 'fat', 'skinny', 'short', 'German'? Wow, this is the way that we show, you know, friendship in Brazil, right? Michelle: You know, it's not that they don't use nicknames, but it's different, you know? Generally they just use diminutive forms of a name like 'Liz for Elizabeth, 'Bob' for Robert, you see? Valdo: OK then, so it's not a funny name like the ones that we use that come from some physical characteristic that the person hás for example. I've got it, OK, we'll talk more later, OK?