Fertility Wellness with The Wholesome Fertility Podcast

On this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by Dr. Nirali Jain (eggspert_md), a board-certified OB/GYN and reproductive endocrinologist at Reproductive Medical Associates (RMA). Dr. Jain shares her expert insights on fertility preservation for individuals undergoing cancer treatment, a crucial yet often overlooked aspect of reproductive care. We explore what options are available for fertility preservation, including egg and sperm freezing, and why it's so important to initiate these discussions before starting chemotherapy or radiation. Dr. Jain also explains the difference between Letrozole and Clomid, the impact of estrogen-sensitive cancers on IVF treatments, and innovative approaches like random-start cycles and DuoStim protocols. Whether you're facing a cancer diagnosis or simply thinking proactively about your reproductive future, this conversation is filled with knowledge and reassurance. Key Takeaways: Why it's essential to discuss fertility before starting cancer treatment. The role of Letrozole in estrogen-sensitive cancers and fertility preservation. Differences between Letrozole and Clomid, and why Letrozole is often preferred. How new protocols like DuoStim and random-start cycles are improving outcomes. Why fertility preservation is important even for those without a cancer diagnosis. Guest Bio: Dr. Nirali Jain (@eggspert_md) is a board-certified OB/GYN and fertility specialist at Reproductive Medicine Associates (RMA) in Basking Ridge, New Jersey. She earned both her undergraduate degree in neurobiology (with a minor in dance!) and her medical degree from Northwestern University, before completing her residency at Weill Cornell/NYP, where she served as co-Chief Resident, and her fellowship in reproductive endocrinology and infertility at NYU Langone. Deeply passionate about women's health and fertility preservation, Dr. Jain blends the latest research and cutting-edge treatments with compassionate, patient-centered care. Her interests include third-party reproduction and oncofertility, and she is especially passionate about supporting patients navigating fertility preservation through a cancer diagnosis. Outside of the clinic, Dr. Jain is a trained dancer, a dedicated global traveler, and an adventurer working toward hiking all seven continents with her husband. Her diverse experiences, from international medical rotations to personal connections with friends and family navigating infertility, have shaped her into a warm, resourceful, and determined advocate for her patients. Links and Resources: Visit RMA websiteFollow Dr. Nirali Jain on Instagram For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care. --  Transcript:   # TWF-Jain-Nirali (Video) ​[00:00:00]  **Michelle Oravitz:** Welcome to the podcast Jain.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Thanks so much for having me **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, so. **Michelle Oravitz:** I'm very excited to talk about this topic, which, um, actually you don't really hear a lot of people talking about, which is how to preserve your fertility if you're going through a cancer diagnosis and if you have to go through treatments. 'cause obviously that can impact a lot on fertility. **Michelle Oravitz:** I have, um, seen actually like a colleague of mine go through. And she also preserved her fertility and, and now she has a baby boy. so it's really nice. **Michelle Oravitz:** to **riverside_nirali_jain_raw-video-cfr_michelle_oravitz's _0181:** so nice. **Michelle Oravitz:** So I'd love for you first to introduce yourself and kind Of give us a background on how you got into this work. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Of course. Um, so I am Dr. Narly Jane. I am, um, an OB GYN by training, and then I did an additional, after completing four years of residency in OB GYN and getting board certified in that, I did an additional training in reproductive endocrinology and [00:01:00] infertility or otherwise known as REI. So now I'm a fertility specialist. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, I trained at Northwestern in Chicago, so I went to undergrad and medical school there. And then, um, home has always been New Jersey for me, so I moved back out east to New Jersey. Um, I did all my training actually in New York City at Cornell for residency and NYU for fellowship. Um, and then moved to the suburbs. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, and now I'm a fertility specialist in, in Basking Ridge at Reproductive Medical Associates.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Very impressive background. That's awesome.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** I'd love to hear just really. About what your process is. If a person has been diagnosed with cancer, like what is the process? What are some of the things that you address if they are trying to preserve fertility, and what are some of the concerns going  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** yeah, yeah. All great questions. So, you know, there's a lot of us, uh, the Reis. Are a very small, [00:02:00] there's a very small number of us. So in terms of specializing in fertility preservation, technically we all are certified to treat patients with cancer and kind of move them through fertility preservation before starting chemotherapy. **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, luckily we've been working closely with oncologists in the past several years just to establish some type of streamlined system because having a diagnosis of cancer and hearing all that information. Especially when you're young is so hard. So I think that's, that's where my interest started in terms of being able to speak to and counsel cancer patients. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** I think it is a very specific niche that you really have to be comfortable with in our field. Um, I. So I'll kind of walk you through, you know, what it, what does it look like, right? Um, you go into your oncologist's office suspecting that you have this, this lump. I'll take breast cancer, for example. It could really be any kind of cancer. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, but breast cancer in a reproductive age patient or someone that's in those years where you're starting [00:03:00] to think about building a family, planning a family, um, or if you have kids at home, that's usually the type of patient that we see come in with a breast cancer diagnosis. So. Kinda just taking that, for example, um, the minute that you're diagnosed, it's really your oncologist's responsibility to counsel you on what treatment options are going to be offered to you. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** And then based off of the treatment options, it's important to know how that affects your reproduction. So how does it affect your ovaries in the short term, in the long term, um, in any way possible. So. Once a patient is initially referred from their oncologist to myself or any other fertility specialist, they come into my office and we just have a 30 minute conversation really talking about family planning goals. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Any kids that they've had in the past either naturally conceived or through um, IVF, and then we talk about where they're at in their relationship. Are they married, are they not? Are they with a partner, [00:04:00] a male partner, a female partner, whatever it might be. It's important to know the social standpoint, um, especially in this sensitive phase of life. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So patient patients usually spend anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour. Um, just kind of talking through where they're at, how they're feeling, what their ultimate childbearing goals are. And then from there we do an ultrasound and that's when I'm really able to see, you know, the, the reproductive status. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So what do the ovaries look like? What does the uterus look like? Is there something that I need to be concerned about from a baseline GYN standpoint? Um, and all of those conversations are happening in real time. So. I think one of the things is patients come in and they're like, I'm already so overwhelmed with all this information from my oncologist, and now my fertility specialist is throwing all this information at me. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Luckily, the way I like to frame it is you come in and you just let go. Like you let us do the work because in the background we're the ones talking to your oncologist. We're the [00:05:00] ones giving that feedback and creating a timeline with your oncologist. Um, and really I think just getting in the door is the hardest part. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So once patients are here to see us, we go through the whole workup. We do anything that we would do for a normal patient that came in for fertility preservation. And then based off of where they're at in their journey, we talk about what makes sense for them, whether that means freezing embryos, freezing eggs, they're very similar in terms of the, the few weeks leading up to the egg retrievals. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So I have that whole conversation just at the initial visit. And then from there we talk about the timeline behind the scenes and make sure that it works with their lives before moving forward. **Michelle Oravitz:** So for people listening to this, why, and this might be an obvious question, but to some it might not be,  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle Oravitz:** why would somebody want to preserve. eggs or sperm. 'cause I've had actually some couples  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yep. **Michelle Oravitz:** come to me where the husband preserved the sperm and they had to go through IVF just because he was going [00:06:00] through cancer treatments. So he had to preserve the sperm ahead of time.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle Oravitz:** people need to consider doing that before doing cancer treatments?  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So there are certain cancer treatments that do affect the ovaries and the sperm health, and you know, for men and women, it affects your reproductive organs. In a similar way, um, depending on the type of chemotherapeutic agent, there are some that are more dangerous in terms of, um, being toxic to your ovaries or toxic to your sperm. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** And those are the instances where we are really thinking about what's the long-term impact because there's medications that oncologists do give patients, and our oncologists are amazing, the ones that we work with, Memorial Sloan Kettering from Reproductive Medical Associates through RMA, um, and. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** They're just so good at what they do and are so well-trained, so they know in the back of their mind, is this going to impact your ovaries or your sperm health or not? Um, and I [00:07:00] think that any chemotherapy, you know, your ovaries are these, these small organs that are constantly turning over follicles every month. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So every month we're losing those eggs, and if they don't become. If an egg isn't ovulated, it doesn't become a baby, it's just gonna die off. So I counsel even patients that don't have cancer, I counsel them on fertility preservation as young as possible. You know, between the ages of 28 and 35, that's like the best time to preserve your fertility. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So in cancer patients, there's an extra level added to that where even if they are a little bit younger, a little bit older. Your eggs are not gonna be the same quality. There's gonna be higher level of chromosomal errors, more DNA breakage, um, and, and bigger issues that lead to issues with conceiving naturally afterwards. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So I think that it's important to consider how that chemotherapy is going to affect them or how surgery would affect them if it was, for example, a GYN cancer where [00:08:00] we're removing a whole ovary, you know, what, what do we have to do to preserve your fertility in that case? And those are important conversations to have. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. for sure. I know that a lot of people are also concerned, you know, with going through the IVF process, you're taking in a lot of estrogen, a lot of hormones, and many cancers are actually estrogen sensitive. So I wanted to talk to you about that. 'cause I know that the data shows that it's. It's been fine, which some people might find surprising, but I wanted you to address that and just kind of **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** from your perspective.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** That's so interesting that you asked that question because I actually, my whole I I graduated fellowship last year and my entire, like passion project in fellowship was looking at one of the drugs that we use to suppress the estrogen levels specifically in cancer patients. Um, and I had presented this at a few of our reproductive meetings. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, A SRM is one of our annual meetings where all of the reiss get together. A lot of male fertility [00:09:00] specialists come and we kinda just talk about. Specific things and fertility preservation for cancer patients is, has been an ongoing topic of interest for all of us. Um, and it's important to know that there are different medications that we can offer. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Letrozole is the one that I, um, have a particular love for and I, uh, you know, I use all the time for my patients, um, for different reasons, but it suppresses the exposure that your body has to estrogen. And there's mixed data, um, out there in terms of, you know, does Letrozole suppression actually impact, you know, does it help or. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Or does it have no impact on your future risk of cancer after treatment? Um, and that honestly is still up for debate. But what we do know is that there's no increased risk of cancer recurrence in patients that have undergone fertility preservation with or without Letrozole. Um, Letrozole is one of those things that we can give, and the way it works is basically. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** It masks that [00:10:00] conversion. It, it doesn't allow for conversion from those androgens in the male hormones over to estrogen. Um, and so your body doesn't really see that estrogen exposure. It stays nice and low throughout your cycle, and it does help with actually ovarian maturation and getting mature eggs harvested and, um, helps a little bit with, with quality too. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So I think that it's really nice in terms of having that available to us, but know that. It's not, it's not essential that you have it, really, the data showing plus minus. Um, but there are certain things that we can do to protect the ovaries, protect your exposure to estrogen. Um, and so that shouldn't be top of mind of concern when we're going through fertility preservation, even with an estrogen sensitive cancer. **Michelle Oravitz:** Actually, so, uh, on a different topic, kind of going back to that, so Letrozole versus Clomid, I, it's like a, the questions I personally feel just based on what I've heard and like my own research that Letrozole would be kind of like the more. [00:11:00] Um, the, it's, it's a little better, but I know that it really depends on the person as well.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** they might do better with Clom, but I'd love to hear your perspective and kind of pick your brain on this.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** totally. You're choosing all the, all the right questions because these are all of my, my specific interests and niches. So  **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh,  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Letrozole is basically, you know, we use Letrozole and Clomid in. Patients that don't have cancer and patients that come in for an intrauterine insemination, that's kind of the most common scenario where we're thinking about, you know, which medication is better? **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Letrozole or Clomid and Clomid used to be the, the most common medication that we use, we dose patients, you know, have 50 milligrams of Clomid, give them five days of the medication. It's an oral pill. Feels really easy and. The way it works is really, it recruits more than one follicle, so it really helps with the release of, um, more than one follicle growing more than one follicle in the ovary. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, but it has a little bit [00:12:00] higher of a risk of twins because that's exactly what it's good at. Um, Clomid, not so much in the cancer. In the cancer front, it's not really used there because it's considered, from a scientific perspective, it's considered like a selective estrogen receptor modulator. So it doesn't necessarily suppress your estrogen levels in the same way that Letrozole does versus. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Letrozole is an aromatase inhibitor, so it really blocks the chemical conversion of one drug or one hormone to the other hormone. Um, the reason we love Letrozole so much, and I don't mean to like gush over Letrozole, but um, it's a mono follicular agent, so it works really well at recruiting one follicle  **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** you know, every OB-GYN's nightmare in a way is having multiples when you didn't intend on having multiples at all. **Michelle Oravitz:** so  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um. **Michelle Oravitz:** were saying that, um, there's more of a chance of twins, it's Clomid, not letrozole.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yes, there's a higher chance with Clomid versus Letrozole. And I mean, don't get me wrong, there's a chance of twins with [00:13:00] any type of assisted reproductive technology. Even when we're doing single embryo transfers, there's a chance that it's gonna split. So, um, the chance is always there just like it is in the natural world. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** But we know for a fact that. CLO is really good at recruiting many follicles. It's good for certain patients that don't respond well to Letrozole. Um, but Letrozole is kind of our, our go-to drug these days just because of all the benefits that we've seen.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Awesome.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** These are all fun things to ask because I, I love talking to our eis 'cause there's so much information that I'm always  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** totally. **Michelle Oravitz:** learn a lot from my patients in my own research, but it's really cool. Picking your guys' brains. So another question I have, and I have actually talked to Dr. Andrea Elli, he's been on,  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle Oravitz:** and he does a lot of endometriosis and, and immune related work as well,  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** so. I'd love to know just from your perspective. One thing that I do know from, based on what I've heard is that the, [00:14:00] guess like you were just saying, that breast cancer or estrogen sensitive breast cancer doesn't seem to be affected by IVF cycles, however, and endometriosis lesions do get affected.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** that's a great question. So, you know, every, there are so many complex G mind diagnoses that the, that our patients come in with. Um, and endometriosis is a big one because there is clear data that endometriosis is linked to infertility. So we think about, you know, when a patient comes in with endometriosis, we really do think about the different treatment options and what are the short-term and long-term impacts of the hormones that we're giving 'em. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, these days, again, kind of going back to Letrozole, we, letrozole is something that I give all of my endometriosis patients because it helps suppress their estrogen because we know.  **Michelle Oravitz:** interesting.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** is very responsive to estrogen and leads to this dysfunctional regulation of all the endometrial tissue that can really flare in a, [00:15:00] in a cycle, or shortly after a cycle. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** I. So we really, for endometriosis patients, the, the best treatment is being on birth control because we don't see that hormonal fluctuation. The up and down of the estrogen and the progesterone, that's what leads to those flares. Um, so I really, I watch patients closely after their cycles too, because you definitely can have an endometriosis flare and we say the best treatment for endometriosis is pregnancy, right? **Dr. Nirali Jain:** That's when you're suppressed, that's when you're at your lowest. Um, and patients, my endo patients feel so good in pregnancy because they have. Hormones that are nice in that baseline, they're not getting periods of course. Um, and that's truly, truly the best treatment.  **Michelle Oravitz:** That's interesting.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** But it is important to consider when you're going through infertility treatments. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** How does my endometriosis affect the short and long-term effects of the fertility medications? And really not to, not to say that they're bad in any way. I think a lot of endometriosis patients go through IVF and have success and do really, really well, and that's kind of the push that they need. [00:16:00] Um, but it's important to be mindful of the bigger picture here. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** It's not just, you're not just a number of. A patient with endo coming in, getting the same protocol. It's really individualized to the extent of your lesions, what symptoms you're having, what grade of endometriosis, where your lesions are. So we're the RAs are thinking about everything before we actually start your protocol. **Michelle Oravitz:** It's crazy how in depth it is, and it's, it, there's just so, it's so multifaceted,  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah,  **Michelle Oravitz:** when it's females  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** totally. **Michelle Oravitz:** are a little, I mean, they can, you know, there, there's definitely a number of things, but it's not as complicated and interconnected  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Exactly. Exactly. That's so true. **Michelle Oravitz:** And so one question I actually have, this is kind of really off topic, but something that I was curious about. **Michelle Oravitz:** 'cause I heard about a while  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** a, a type of cancer treatment that was used. I'm not sure exactly what it was, but for some reason it actually caused follicles to grow, [00:17:00] or to multiply. And they were **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Interesting. **Michelle Oravitz:** this definitely. Puts, um, the whole idea of like a woman being born with all the follicles she'll ever have on its head, I thought that was really Interesting. **Michelle Oravitz:** Now I learned a little bit about it. I don't think it really went further than that,  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle Oravitz:** one of those things that they're like, Hmm, this is interesting. I don't know, it was kind of a random side effect of this chemo drug. I dunno if it was a chemo drug or a cancer drug.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah.  **Michelle Oravitz:** ever heard of that. **Michelle Oravitz:** So I was just **Dr. Nirali Jain:** I haven't, I mean, that's interesting. I feel like I'd have to look into that because that would be definitely a point of interest for a lot of Reis. But it kind of does go back to the point of, you know, women are really born with all the eggs we're ever gonna have. So it's about a million, and then it just goes down from there. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** And the, by the time you start having periods, I like to kind of show my patients a chart, but you have a couple hundred thousand eggs and you ovulate one egg a month. That's, you know. Able to [00:18:00] progress into a fertilized egg and then into a, an embryo into a baby, um, if that's your goal. But otherwise, patients that are having periods and not trying to actually get pregnant, we're losing hundreds of eggs a month. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** It's important to kind of think about that decline, and it's important to know that that rate can be faster in patients with cancer, patients with low ovarian reserve. And sometimes when you have the two compounded, that's when a fertility specialist is definitely, you know, in the queue to, to have a discussion with you in terms of what that means and how you can reach your family building goals despite being faced with that, with that challenge. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** I mean, 'cause we know oxidative stress is one of the things that can cause, uh,  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** quality eggs, but it's also can cause cancer. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** um, similar, you know, like things that really deplete the body could definitely impact. Um, and then what are your thoughts? I know I'm asking you all kinds of random questions, **Dr. Nirali Jain:** I love it. **Michelle Oravitz:** are your thoughts about doing low simulation in certain [00:19:00] circumstances versus high stem? **Michelle Oravitz:** Sometimes people don't respond as well to higher stems.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, that's a great point. I think that it kind of all goes back to creating an individualized protocol. If. A patient's going to a practice and basically just getting a protocol saying, this is our standard. We start with our standard of, you know, I, I think about the standard, which is 300 of the FSH or that pen that you dial up, and then 150 units of that powder vial. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** And we have patients mixing powders all the time, and that's kind of our blanket protocol that we give patients. But that's not really what's happening behind the scenes. And if you're given a protocol that's, and being told, you know, this is kind of what we give to everyone, it's probably not the right fit for you. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, I  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, there are certain patients that respond to a much lower dose and do really, really well, and then some patients that need a much higher dose. Um, and I think it's, that's kind of like the fun part of being an REI of being able to individualize the [00:20:00] protocol to the patient. Um, and I know for a fact there are so many, luckily, you know, we have so many leaders in REI that have been. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Have dedicated their entire careers to researching these different protocols and how they can help different patients. Um, patients with lower a MH, you know, might benefit from a duo stim protocol, for example. That's kind of the first one that comes to mind, but a protocol where we're using those follicles from the second half of a cycle. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** I would've never thought that those were the follicles that  **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh,  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** would be better than the first half of the cycle,  **Michelle Oravitz:** Wait,  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** but, **Michelle Oravitz:** that. Explain that. Um, because I think that that's kind of a unique  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** mm-hmm.  **Michelle Oravitz:** that I haven't heard of.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, so there's this new day. It's still kind of developing, but um, kind of going back to, you know, what's an individualized protocol? Duo STEM is one of the newer protocols that we've started using. I, I've used it once or twice in patients. Um, but it goes back to the research that shows that you might actually have two different periods of time in a menstrual cycle where you could potentially recruit [00:21:00] follicles. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** You could have a follicular phase where there's a certain cohort of follicles recruited, and then you have a follicle that forms creates a corpus glut.  **Michelle Oravitz:** um, protocols  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yep. And then you basically go through the follicular protocol and then a few days after a retrieval, instead of waiting for a new follicular cohort or follicular recruitment from the first half of your menstrual cycle, you actually use the luteal phase and you recruit those follicles that would've actually died off or have been prematurely recruited in a prior cycle. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So **Michelle Oravitz:** that's So  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** you just do a similar, I guess, um, medicine,  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** go right back into it.  **Michelle Oravitz:** do the same exact thing, but right after ovulation.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Fascinating. That's really interesting.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah,  **Michelle Oravitz:** has been your experience with that?  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** I think it's, honestly, it's mixed. Um, so far, you know, our data from fertility and sterility and A SRM, it, it shows support for these DUO STEM [00:22:00] protocols, saying that if patients don't have that great quality of eggs or if they have a very low number, maybe they'd benefit from starting the meds earlier and recruiting follicles. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** A little bit earlier. Um, so we've seen positive results so far. A lot of work to be done in terms of really understanding it. Um, and of course, as a new attending, I have a lot more experience to kind of build on. Um, but I, I have seen success from it. **Michelle Oravitz:** That's fascinating. Are there any other new technologies, like new add-ons, um, that you've seen, that you've found to be really cool or interesting?  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** I think the biggest thing, actually, kind of going back to our whole topic for today is fertility preservation cancer patients. One of the biggest things that I've learned recently is that we used to start fertility, um, patients. You know, only in the beginning of the cycle days, two or three is technically like when most. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Most clinics, um, start patients, but for our cancer patients, sometimes you don't have that time. You don't wanna wait a full month to [00:23:00] restart, um, your, you know, your menstrual cycle and then do the fertility preservation and then delay chemotherapy a full month. So we started doing what we call random starts. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So you basically start a patient whenever they come in. You know, it could be the day after your consultation, the day of your consultation. I've kind of seen all of the above. Um, and we've seen really good success with random starts, per se. Um, and we've been doing a lot more of that, where it's not as dependent on where you're at in your cycle. **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, obviously there's a difference in outcomes. You might not be a great candidate for it, so definitely it's worth talking to your doctor about it. But it kind of gives relief to our cancer patients where if you have a new cancer diagnosis and you're like, oh, I just finished my period, like, I can't even start a cycle until next month. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** That's not always true. Um, so it's always worth it to go into see a fertility specialist and just get, you know, get the data that you need right away, and then you can make a decision later on. **Michelle Oravitz:** For sure. Um, Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** and I wanted to kind of cover a lot of different topics 'cause I know that [00:24:00] some people are gonna wanna hear what you have to say that don't necessarily, or, uh, have cancer. But it is important. I, I think that, you know, if you get to thirties and you haven't gotten married or you don't have a partner, I think it's really important to preserve your fertility in general.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** important thing. And then if you were going through a cancer diagnosis and you decided to preserve your fertility, um, guess more for women because they're eventually going to be thinking about transfers after they go through treatment. So what are some of the things that they would need to consider as far as that goes? **Michelle Oravitz:** Like after the  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** then they go through the cancer treatments. Um, and then what, how long should they  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** yeah. Like what does it look like? So I've had patients that come back, you know, in my fellowship training I did a, a couple research projects on patients that came back to pursue an embryo transfer, um, after chemotherapy agent. And basically compared them to how they did, um, [00:25:00] compared to patients that didn't have cancer and just froze their embryos or froze their eggs and then came back to pursue a transfer and. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** I think the, the most reassuring thing from the preliminary data that we have is saying that there's no difference in pregnancy rates and no difference in life birth,  **Michelle Oravitz:** Awesome.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** of whether they had chemotherapy or not. After freezing those eggs and going through fertility preservation.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Amazing.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, in terms of where your body needs to be, I think the oncologist, we, we wait for their green light. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** We wait for their signal to say, you know, she's safe to carry a pregnancy.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** And then once we do that, we basically treat you like any other patient. So if you're coming in for a cycle, if you're having periods, then it's reasonable to try a natural cycle protocol, wait for your body to naturally ovulate an egg. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** And instead of obviously hoping that egg will fertilize, we, um, use a corpus luteum. We use the progesterone from the corpus luteum to really support this embryo being implanted into the uterus. Um. Yeah. [00:26:00] And then there's also another side. I mean, some patients don't get their periods back and they always ask like, what if I never get my period back? **Dr. Nirali Jain:** What if I'm just like in menopause because of the chemotherapy agents? And for that, we can start you on a synthetic protocol or basically an estrogen dependent protocol where you take an estrogen pill for a certain number of days. We monitor your lining, then we start progesterone, um, to support your hormones from that perspective instead of relying on your ovaries to release the progesterone that they need, um, and then doing the embryo transfer a few, few days after progesterone starts. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So there's definitely different protocols depending on where your menstrual health is at after the chemotherapy or after the cancer treatment. Um, but it's important to kind of just know that. That there's options. It doesn't mean that it's the end of the road if you all of a sudden stop getting your period. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, for sure. I mean, 'cause you, technically speaking, you can really control a lot of that. More so for transfers  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yep. **Michelle Oravitz:** Retrievals really is kind of like what [00:27:00] eggs you have, what the quality is. But people can be in complete menopause and you guys can still control their cycles for transfer, which is kind of. A huge difference  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah,  **Michelle Oravitz:** in the  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** exactly. That's exactly right. Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** interesting. Any other, um, new, new things that you're, you guys are excited about? I always like to hear about like the new and upcoming things  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Of course.  **Michelle Oravitz:** actually before, which I thought was fascinating. Yeah.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** I feel like there's always like updates and, and new data and things like that coming out, but just know, I think it's important for patients to know, like we're constantly, we're, the reason I chose to even pursue this field was because it's new. Right. There's something that we are discovering every day, every year, and that's what makes our, our conferences so important to attend, um, to really just stay up to date. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, but we are, uh, constantly updating our embryology standards, the way we thaw our eggs, and the success rate associated with a thaw and [00:28:00] how we treat our embryos and the media that we use, right? Like, so we're really thinking about the basic science perspective every single day, and that's what makes this field so unique. **Michelle Oravitz:** It is really awesome. And so do you guys specialize specifically on, um. Egg freezing and, and I mean specific fertility preservation in patients that do that have cancer that are going through treatments, do you guys specialize specifically in that? I mean, I know you do range  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. Yeah, because it's such a small community, we all have our own niches and we all kind of have our own interests and  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** no like specific training. There are a couple courses that you take that I took in in training as well, just to kind of understand what it sounds like to, I. Council of fertility preservation, patient with and without cancer. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, and then, you know, you kind of just learn by experience and you form a niche for something that you're passionate about. 'cause that's what makes you, you know, really thorough in, in your treatment. [00:29:00] So that's one of my interests. Um, and, but I would say,  **Michelle Oravitz:** training for that. It's just like  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** just know how to treat that in  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** exactly.  **Michelle Oravitz:** especially if you're interested in doing that.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Exactly. That's exactly right. It's kind of, it just comes with the experience comes with your mentors and who you're surrounded by, and everyone kind of helps each other get to that point. But there are several specialists in our practice at RMA that specialize specifically in fertility preservation in cancer patients. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So we have a close communication with our oncologist and they know who to refer to within the practice because everyone has their own little interests.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Amazing.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** Um, definitely. I, like I said, I really enjoy picking your brain because it's a lot of fun for me. I, I do  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Totally.  **Michelle Oravitz:** acupuncture, so  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** and I, I think that it's just so crazy that our fields don't work together. I mean, we kind of do, but I think, I just feel like it would be so great  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** exactly.[00:30:00]  **Michelle Oravitz:** the expertise because you guys have immense. Benefits like in, in, uh, technology and incredible innovations and, and then the natural aspect of really understanding the, the body. And I, I just think that it would work so amazing together if it was more of like a thing. 'cause it, I know in China they actually combine the two  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah.  **Michelle Oravitz:** eastern.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, I mean I think that that's so important and there is data that shows, you know, there's actually a recent study that came out just a few weeks ago on the benefits of acupuncture for fertility patients. And we know that, I mean, I recommend it to all of my patients, specifically the day of the embryo transfer. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** We, luckily, we offer it on site at RMA and we have acupuncturists that come in and, and do a session before and after the embryo transfer, and I think. A lot of that is targeted towards stress relief. But I also think that holistically it's important to feel at your best when we're doing something that's so crucial to your, to your health. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So to really focus on the diet, focus on stress relief, [00:31:00] focus on meditation, yoga, whatever it takes to get to your best wellbeing when you're going through fertility treatments, um, is so important. So I appreciate  **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** like you that really specialize in the other side of. Of this, because I do consider it still part of the holistic medicine that we need to really maximize success for our patients. **Michelle Oravitz:** Awesome. Well,  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** Jane, this is such a pleasure Of talking to you. You've given us some, so much great information and we've definitely dived into a, do a topic that I don't typically, I haven't yet spoken about. But, um, that being said, it's such an important topic to talk about. And thank you so much for coming on today. **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh,  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** course. **Michelle Oravitz:** I get off, how can people find you?  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** That's a great question. So I have, um, a social media page. I, it's called Expert nc. So like EGG,  **Michelle Oravitz:** I  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** um, expert nc. Try, tried to make it a little bit humorous. Um, but I'm all over social [00:32:00] media and would love to hear from anyone that is listening. I, you know, every, every day I get different, um, dms and I'm happy to respond. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** I love hearing about everyone else's. Stories and things like that. Um, so that is kind of my main, main social media platform. Um, and then through like RMA and Reproductive Medical Associates, we also have a YouTube channel. We have an Instagram page, um, of our office available, um, as well that is public. **Dr. Nirali Jain:** So you can find us pretty easily if you just kind of hit Google. But um, yeah, I'm kind of developing my social media platform as the expert and I hope it grows.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Love it. Great.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah.  **Michelle Oravitz:** was such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you. so much **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Thank you. **Michelle Oravitz:** today.  **Dr. Nirali Jain:** Of course. Thank you so much for having me.  [00:33:00]   

On this solo episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I dive into a powerful and often overlooked connection in reproductive health, the link between endometriosis and vagal tone. While many approaches to managing endometriosis focus on supplements, surgery, or hormonal therapies, few consider the role of the vagus nerve in regulating inflammation, digestion, and nervous system balance. In this episode, I break down how vagal tone directly influences endo symptoms, and why it could be the missing piece in your healing journey. I also share practical and accessible tools to stimulate vagal tone, from breathwork and cold exposure to acupuncture and mindfulness techniques. Whether you have endometriosis or are simply looking to support your fertility naturally, this episode offers actionable insights to help you regulate your body's stress response and boost overall well-being. Key Takeaways:  Endometriosis is not just a hormonal issue—it's also tied to inflammation, gut health, and nervous system function. Research shows women with endometriosis often have lower vagal tone, which can worsen symptoms. Improving vagal tone can reduce inflammation and support digestion, egg quality, and hormonal balance. Simple practices like belly breathing, humming, and ear massage can stimulate the vagus nerve. Heart rate variability (HRV) is a useful tool for tracking nervous system health and vagal tone.   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care. --- Transcript: Michelle Oravitz: [00:00:00] Episode number 337 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today we're diving into a powerful and often overlooked connection when it comes to reproductive health and specifically with endometriosis. And this is the link between endometriosis and vagal tone. So that is definitely something that I haven't heard of originally when I first got into this work, and it's definitely something that you don't really see much out there. So endometriosis is a chronic inflammatory condition where tissues similar to the lining of the uterus called the endometrium grow outside of the uterus. The tissue can be found on ovaries, fallopian tubes, and outer surfaces of the uterus, and even at times. On the bladder or the intestines, if it's really, really severe each month, just like normal, you shed the [00:01:00] uterine lining and misplaced tissue responds to those hormonal changes. So this can cause a lot of pain and it can also lead to inflammation scarring and the formation of adhesions, which are bands of scar tissues that can cause organs to stick together. So some of the common symptoms include chronic pelvic pain, painful periods, so you can really feel severe pain where it's to the point where you can't really function when you're getting your period. It can also happen to increase pain during sex, and many times it is linked to a lot of digestive imbalances and microbiome imbalances as well. This can often cause issues. Also trying to conceive, in many cases people might need surgery. There are many different things that people can do. Of course there are supplements that people can take. And today I'm gonna talk more about the connection between the [00:02:00] vagal tone and endometriosis. So it's really fascinating. It's not something that you'll find often, but I'm very excited to share this. And if you wanna find out more, stay tuned. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey. / Michelle Oravitz: Episode number 337 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today we're diving into a powerful and often overlooked connection when it comes to reproductive health and specifically with endometriosis. And this is the link between endometriosis and vagal tone. So that is definitely something that I haven't heard of originally when I first got into this work, and it's definitely something that you don't really see much out there. So endometriosis is a chronic inflammatory condition where tissues similar to the lining of the uterus. Called the endometrium grow outside of the uterus. The tissue can be found on ovaries, fallopian tubes, and outer surfaces of the uterus, and even at times on the bladder or the intestines if it's really, really severe. Each month, just like normal, you shed the [00:01:00] uterine lining and misplaced tissue responds to those hormonal changes. So this can cause a lot of pain and it can also lead to inflammation scarring and the formation of adhesions, which are bands of scar tissues that can cause organs to stick together. So some of the common symptoms include chronic pelvic pain, painful periods, so you can really feel severe pain where it's to the point where you can't really function when you're getting your period. It can also happen to increase pain during sex, and many times it is linked to a lot of digestive imbalances and microbiome imbalances as well. This can often cause issues. Also trying to conceive, in many cases people might need surgery. There are many different things that people can do. Of course there are supplements that people can take. And today I'm gonna talk more about the connection between the [00:02:00] vagal tone and endometriosis. So. It's really fascinating. It's not something that you'll find often, but I'm very excited to share this and if you wanna find out more, stay tuned.  So now that I mentioned what endometriosis is and really the condition and how it can impact your fertility health, I'm gonna also talk about vagal tone and really what the connection is between the vagal tone and endometriosis. If you heard some of my earlier episodes, you'll know that I talk a lot about the vagus nerve and about how the nervous system is so impactful when it comes to reproductive health. It's gotten to the point where that has become my [00:03:00] obsession as a fertility practitioner. It is so important and it really explains the yin and the yang process and really how the body's able to get into a homeostasis and regulate itself. And it's so pivotal when it comes to fertility health. So the vagus nerve is a cranial nerve, and it's the largest cranial nerve in the body, but it plays an incredibly important role. And I've mentioned this before, but I'm gonna mention it again in case you haven't seen it before. What it does is it actually communicates with the enteric nervous system which is your digestive nervous system, and it's , hundreds of millions of neurons that go throughout your whole digestive process. And it can be one of the causes for people having issues with digestion when there's a low vagal tone. Because it is so impactful when it comes to digestion, and one of the things that Vagus nerve does is that it impacts the parasympathetic or rest and digest [00:04:00] aspect of the body. So when your body is in parasympathetic, that is the optimal time to digest food, and it can also cause a more. Calm state of mind where your body is not in fight or flight, but it's more regenerative. So when it is in fight or flight, it's a little bit more of a sympathetic response. Now, there's nothing wrong with being in the sympathetic response. It's not like the bad state to be in. It's actually part of our nervous system and part of the autonomic nervous system, which composes of both the sympathetic and the parasympathetic. But when it becomes too chronic, then it can cause a lot of different problems, and the body gets into a more survival state. So vagal tone basically refers to the vagus nerve's ability to function. So the stronger it is, the stronger it functions, the stronger the vagal tone. One of the ways that you can actually measure vagal tone is through something called heart rate variability, HRV, [00:05:00] and you can see many different apps, many different devices that actually measure that. And HeartMath Institute also discusses a lot about that, and they talk about the heart brain coherence, and they look at. Heart rate variability and vagal tone. And there was actually certain types of exercises, , that you can do to actually increase vagal tone and increase heart rate variability and also increase. Just by doing so, heart, brain coherence. So the higher the heart brain coherence and the higher the heart rate variability, the more calm we feel, the better state that we have. And apparently in conditions of endometriosis, the vagal tone. Is actually lower. So one of the things that I would definitely suggest if you do have endometriosis is to improve that vagal tone. And I'm gonna be discussing many, many different ways to do that. So as we know with endometriosis, one of the things that it's linked to is [00:06:00] digestive issues. And the higher the vagal tone and the better the biggest nerve is functioning, the better it can talk to and basically communicate with the enteric nervous system, which is really your. Digestive nervous system. And so we know that when we stimulate the vagus nerve, it can actually improve your digestive system. And when that happens, you're not only improving your ability to take in nutrients, but you're also decreasing the inflammation in the body, which is really pivotal when it comes to not just endometriosis, but egg quality and overall. Fertility health. So this is something that anybody who's going through the fertility journey, male or female, can benefit from regardless if you have endometriosis or not. So just to kind of go back on the endometriosis topic, one of the ways really the only true way that you can know if you have endometriosis is by getting [00:07:00] a laparoscopy. It is a surgery, so I'm not saying to go and do that. However, if you suspect that you might have endometriosis based on inflammation, gut imbalance, really strong menstrual pain, pain with periods and kind of lower back pain around that time, then you could still do this because you're gonna benefit from it anyway. So I would go and talk to your doctor if you do suspect that you have endometriosis to get your options. So besides looking at heart rate variability, you may kind of realize if your heart rate variability is high or your vagal tone is high based on how well you get back from really stressful situations. So if you are the type of person that. Gets anxious pretty easily. Startles really easily has like an off nervous system, gets really nervous around people. That's okay to a certain extent, if it's not [00:08:00]chronic, if it's not something that's really impacting your life. But if it is impacting your life and it's something that happens and when you get out of those environments that trigger that. You continue feeling like that, that may mean that you have a lower vagal tone, which means that you're not able to adapt from one state of stress to a more calm state of your nervous system. So while that doesn't confirm heart rate variability, and ultimately the best thing to do is really to measure it, and you can measure it with many devices like even, or ring, you know, there's many devices that actually track your body and your heart rate variability. And that would be the ultimate way to confirm it, but there are definitely symptoms that you can feel as well. So studies do confirm that women have a lower vagal tone if they have endometriosis, and that a lower vagal tone is also linked with higher inflammatory conditions. , some of the things in life that can impact [00:09:00] vagal tone really do have to do with high stress. So if you're constantly exposed to high stress in your life, that can impact your vagal tone. And also, I've mentioned this before, it's really important to know that if you do have high stress. It's not the end of the world if you have some stress, but high stress chronically can really impact your overall health and it can also throw off your nervous system balance. So even if you have IBS or any kind of gut conditions or inflammation or bloating, I'll be covering things that will also benefit you as well. So what's pretty amazing is that there have been studies, actually animal studies that have shown that increasing that vagus nerve stimulation, which will improve the vagus nerve function has been shown to decrease lesions in animals of endometriosis. This is thought to be because vagus [00:10:00] nerve stimulation can regulate and decrease inflammatory markers in the body. So I'm gonna cover a few ways that you can stimulate your vagus nerve overall. I. So breath work is amazing and it works with the diaphragm, especially belly breath. So as a child, you probably knew how to breathe. You'll see babies breathe from their bellies because that belly breath is actually the way we're supposed to breathe. But as we get older, we actually learn habits that are not really great for breathing. So belly breath is really good. So you could put your hand right underneath your. Ribs, which is where your diaphragm is, and start to use that, really the diaphragm as a muscle and breathe in and out and do this a couple of times a day to retrain yourself. To breathe from the belly. I remember not doing that. And then years ago, learning and retraining myself to the point where it became unconscious and I was just a [00:11:00] belly breather. And it really impacted how I felt in general because I used to have generalized social anxiety. And I remember going in for body work. A massage and the woman said, oh, you're a belly breather. So it, it is something that I was like, oh, I'm so happy. I'm so proud of myself that I actually trained myself. I wasn't even focusing on trying, and she noticed it. So it is something that you can train yourself. It's a habit that we have. It becomes unconscious. So just like a good habit can become unconscious, a bad habit can become unconscious, but you can also change that bad habit to a good unconscious habit. So I've talked about slow, deep breathing, but you can also do something called box breathing, which is inhale to four, hold to four, exhale to four, and then hold out to four. And then you can slowly increase that with time. I remember when I used to teach Kundalini yoga, we had something called, it was like the meditation [00:12:00] aspect of the yoga training, and it was something called the 16 seconds.  breath. We would breathe in so it's not quite the box. It would breathe in to 20, hold for 20, breathe out to 20 and that's 60 seconds. And doing so really calms the mind. And of course you'd have to work yourself up to doing that and not do that right off the bat. 'cause it is very hard and it is a practice you have to build up to. So another thing that can help stimulate the biggest nerve is cold exposure. Now with Chinese medicine, you may have heard me say that it's not really great to have chronic cold exposure. So I often tell people, keep your feet warm or put socks on and don't put your feet on cold tile. Now this is. A chronic thing, this is doing something day in and day out. And also we do have our first kidney point on the bottom of our feet. The kidneys are in charge of our reproductive health, so you don't want that coldness from the tile to come up from the feet [00:13:00] into the channels. So this is why I say that for a day in and day out. But once in a while, you can give yourself a little cold exposure. Doing so, like maybe doing a quick cold shower once in a while is okay. Now, if you are, of course this isn't for everybody. If you are somebody who tends to be cold all the time, this may not be for you. But what they do find is that that quick stress effect of the cold exposure, like even a cold plunge. Can actually stimulate the vagus nerve. So it's a quick stress response. And then the body goes from stress, which is the sympathetic to parasympathetic. It starts to stimulate that nervous system regulation. Another thing that can really be beneficial is gargling or humming. And I personally love to ohm. If I feel really stressed, even if I'm driving, I just om or hum what humming does. Is, it actually slows down your breath. And you may have heard me say this before in [00:14:00] previous episodes, is that when you breathe slow and deep, you actually calm your nervous system. So, and especially your exhale. So the longer your exhale, the calmer your nervous system, and the more it's gonna go into parasympathetic mode. So when you're inhaling and you're exhaling with a hum, it slows it down. It actually stops it from being cleared fast. Of course, meditation and mindfulness. Now, what meditation does is it really gets us to a state of receptivity and a state of listening. When we're in meditation, we're paying attention to ourselves, even ourselves, when we're anxious or we're feeling uncomfortable. When you're feeling that sensation, it's almost like a somatic acknowledgement of your body sensation, so you're aware, you become more aware. Of what happens when you are feeling uncomfortable, and then having those times during the day is really beneficial for that mindfulness to increase. Because the more [00:15:00] you give yourself opportunities to pay attention to yourself, your mind, your body, how it feels, the more mindful you become, the more you can get really tuned in with your nervous system. And that awareness has been shown to really improve your overall physiology, which in turn. Can help your nervous system regulation and your vagal tone. And of course, one of my favorites is acupuncture. Acupuncture can help tremendously, and we actually have a bunch of points that I use often to stimulate the vagus nerve, and part of it is an ears. So another thing that I would suggest if you can't get to acupuncture is just massage your ears or even massage your feet. Anything that really stimulates that calming effect. The ears are one of the ways that we can access the vagus nerve. So I hope you enjoyed this episode, and feel free to share this with anybody that you think can benefit from this information. [00:16:00] It is information that you may not often hear. I haven't heard about it before until I stumbled upon it and I was like, Hmm, that's very interesting. And then the more I learn about the nervous system, the more impacts I see that it has over reproductive health. So I hope this was beneficial for you and. If you ever have any questions, ideas, or thoughts for future episodes, you can always reach out to me and DM me on Instagram where I am very active and my handle is at the wholesome lotus fertility. So thank you so much for tuning in, and I hope you have a beautiful day. So that concludes today's episode. You can find all of the links mentioned on the episode notes. If you're enjoying these episodes, please take a moment to share and leave a review. Reviews mean everything to podcasters and I really enjoy hearing from my listeners.  

On this solo episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I explore one of the most underrated yet powerful organs in your fertility journey, the liver. From both a Chinese medicine and Western medicine perspective, the liver plays a pivotal role in hormone balance, detoxification, and emotional regulation. I break down the signs of liver qi stagnation (hello, PMS and irritability!), how stress directly impacts this organ's ability to function, and why supporting your liver is essential for optimal fertility and menstrual health. You'll learn practical ways to give your liver the TLC it needs, from stress-reducing rituals to the best foods and herbs that support detoxification and hormone balance. Whether you're trying to conceive naturally or going through IVF, this episode is packed with tips on how to nurture your body's natural detox pathways and create a more fertile environment from within. Key Takeaways:  The liver plays a crucial role in managing hormones, detoxifying the body, and supporting menstrual health. In Chinese medicine, liver qi stagnation often caused by stress is a major pattern that affects fertility. PMS symptoms like irritability, bloating, and breast tenderness can stem from blocked liver qi. Western medicine highlights the liver's role in clearing excess estrogen, important for conditions like PCOS, endometriosis, and fibroids. Supporting the liver with stress management, acupuncture, breathwork, and liver-friendly foods can significantly enhance fertility outcomes.   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care. --- Transcript: Michelle Oravitz: [00:00:00] Episode number 336 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today I am going to be talking about the liver when it comes to Chinese medicine, as well as how western medicine perceives it and understands it, and why it is really an important organ when it comes to your fertility health. So stay tuned. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey. / Today I'm going to be talking about the liver when it comes to Chinese medicine and how it is perceived as a very important organ when it comes [00:01:00] to fertility, health and menstrual health. And as we know, menstrual health is really the heartbeat of fertility health. Then also as it is seen through a Western medicine lens. I'm not a western medicine doctor, but there is a more conventional way of looking at the liver, which is a bit different as you'll see to how Chinese medicine perceives the liver. So the liver's role according to Chinese medicine is to ensure the free flow of qi, which is life force vitality or sort of an energy, but it's way more than that. also stores blood. And is really important to prepare the body right before a woman begins menstruation. It is very much related to emotions, and its emotion is anger. I. So when the liver is stagnated and is not able to ensure the free flow [00:02:00] of QI in the body, it can cause stagnation. And one of the biggest things that causes liver chi stagnation is stress. So it's actually one of the most diagnosed condition and pattern liver tree stagnation of all patterns. It is one of those things that a lot of people, and this actually reflects the state of the world today, because we just have so many demands and we're constantly being bombarded with information news. And the pace that we're going on is not a typical natural pace that we're used to or ancestors used to have, where we used to be a lot more connected with nature, which calms our nervous system and helps with stress. So some of the common signs, and it could be some and not all, or you know, the, any one of these really. If you have a few or a number of these symptoms, it might be showing that you have [00:03:00] liver chase stagnation. So you may have noticed that at times when you feel really stressed, you hold a lot of tension in your upper shoulders. That is actually a response to liver cheese stagnation. You may have also felt like you're sighing really strongly when you're stressed. That is liver cheese stagnation. It's a feeling of fullness in the chest where you feel like you need to blow off steam. I. If you felt really angry, and I mean really angry, that is definitely liberty stagnation. Or if you're feeling more irritability, that comes and goes. That is also liberty stagnation. I. Liver cheese stagnation can also impact PMS. So PMS really means premenstrual syndrome, so it could be an umbrella of many different things that can come up, and it doesn't necessarily have to be irritation. It could be other things as well. So one of those things are irritation [00:04:00] or fatigue or just really any symptoms that you have before your period. Constipation, bloating. Breast tenderness, mood swings. So those are all things that can be really under the umbrella of PMS, really having any kind of even cramping before you get your period. What that shows is that there is energy that is stuck, and since the liver has an important role of storing the blood and preparing the body for the menstrual cycle, what happens is. It also has a role for ensuring the free flow of qi, and when it is trying to do one thing, it's not, and it doesn't have as much energy to begin with, then it's not able to do all of its functions all at once. And of course, it becomes very busy. Right before a woman has her period, because it's preparing that, plus it's doing its regular job of ensuring free flow of qi. [00:05:00] So when that free flow of QI is being backed up or stagnated from the tenseness of stress, then it's not able to do its job and therefore women will experience PMS symptoms. And what happens now and what I see often in my practice is that. Women do have a lot of stress, so they may show up as having many different patterns at once. So stagnation is considered a full pattern, and then there's deficiency because sometimes a full pattern can actually cause deficiency because if something gets jammed up and blocked that being full, so it's more like a blockage. It can cause the body to not get the nourishment and. Energy that it requires, so that a stagnation, so a full type pattern can cause a deficiency. And then sometimes a deficiency can cause a full pattern and sometimes can, and sometimes deficiency can cause a full pattern. And then what can happen too is when the cheek gets stagnated for a very long time. It impacts like the next in [00:06:00] line, which is blood. And when blood gets stagnated, it can cause things like fibroids because then it becomes more of a mass. And so ultimately liver cheese stagnation is one part, but it can continue and progress to something way more severe. It can also impact endometriosis as well. And then liver cheese stagnation can also impact the spleen. So the elements of the liver when it is too stagnated can actually what's called overact on the spleen. And the spleen in Chinese medicine is in charge of your digestion. So if you've ever been in a situation where you feel really stressed, some people will either wanna overeat and then some people won't be able to eat at all, and sometimes their stress will end up. Being felt in the gut, and that is your liver overacting on your spleen and stomach, which is your digestive system in Chinese medicine. so conventional medicine sees the liver as having a [00:07:00] very important role when it comes to detoxification of your body. It really is the main organ, except of course there's other ones like your colon but the liver will detoxify a lot of chemicals and what happens often too is if your colon is backed up, it actually makes the job of the liver in cleansing your system harder. So in order to really take care of the liver, you don't just focus on the liver, you also focus on your gut health. So as we're seeing both in conventional medicine and in and in Western medicine and in eastern medicine, the liver and digestive system do work hand in hand, even though they're two different systems in the body, but ultimately the whole body has many different systems that work like a symphony. Now, how this relates to your menstrual cycle Is that one of the things that the liver does is remove excess [00:08:00] estrogen from the body, so it is important to remove excess estrogen. And nowadays we also have a lot of. Hormone mimicking chemicals like xenoestrogens, which are fake estrogens, that the body confuses for estrogens. And ultimately, when we start to get something called estrogen dominance, it causes things like endometriosis and fibroids, many different conditions, and it can also throw off our estrogen progesterone balance. Then ultimately because hormones are this intricate, delicate symphony, it can impact your hormones as a whole. This can also cause irregular cycles, which is obviously very important to regulate when you are trying to conceive. The liver also has an important role in regulating glucose and insulin, which is really important for many [00:09:00] conditions like PCOS, which tend to have many, there's many different types of PCOS, but most of it, the majority tend to have a link with insulin resistance, so that is really important as well. Some things that people might feel when their liver is more sluggish is they will feel more sluggish and tired. They'll feel hormone fluctuations. they'll have more PMS, and they might even see some skin issues like acne where their body is trying to cleanse itself. They might also feel bloated and constipated, and sometimes even might have a little more sensitivity in their right upper quadrant, which is the right section, right under the ribs. Ultimately, you want your body to be free of toxins and you want the energy to flow in order to have an optimal menstruation for women and really have optimal fertility. So there are definitely things that you can do to help your liver. [00:10:00] One of the biggest things, as we mentioned before, is actually managing stress. So in Chinese medicine, we really don't see a difference between the body, the mind, and the spirit. And there are so many different aspects that come together to really create our health. And that is why our mind and how we feel and our emotions are just as intricate and just as important as really what we put into our bodies through food and how we move and our exercise and our sleep. So all of those things really matter when it comes to your overall health and ultimately your fertility health. So some ways you can manage stress is. talk to somebody when you have a lot going on. It's really important because we as humans are meant to connect with others and it actually feels good for us to connect with community. It's important, however, to find people that you feel safe with and not people that will make you feel worse [00:11:00] for feeling your feelings. So it's important to have a safe space to talk and maybe perhaps a community. There are many different communities out there when it comes to fertility health and you can also find psychotherapists that's specifically work in the fertility category. So they really understand the stressors that come specifically from being on the fertility journey. So those are really great to seek out and there are many people that are professionals in that category. I. Another thing that is super, super important, and it's something that I actually wanna do a whole other segment on, which is breath work. So through breath work, you can actually stimulate your vagus nerve and regulate your nervous system. So it's really, really important to learn how to breathe because through the breath, that is one of the easiest ways to truly communicate with the brain that you feel safe. Then when you create a feeling of safety, your body will automatically feel at ease and it can let [00:12:00] go, and you'll also feel like you're thinking more clearly because when your liver is able to ensure that free flow of Qi, your body overall feels so much better. Meditation. I am a huge fan, and that is something that I have been doing for many years and has completely changed my life, so I highly recommend getting into meditation. You can get into many different meditations, and one of the things if you're just getting started and you don't know much. Is something that I recommend often to my patients and my coaching clients is to look into, um, something called the Headspace series. Headspace is an app, a meditation app, and there's a series on Netflix, and most everybody has Netflix. And they go through many different types of meditations. They explain exactly the science behind it and what those types of meditations do, and then at the end of each segment, they will cover and kind of guide you through that particular meditation that they spoke about. And I highly recommend doing [00:13:00] that because then you can try out different forms of meditation. The two main forms are. Paying attention to your breath or repeating a mantra in your mind. And there are many specific mantras and a lot of 'em are seed mantras that you can find from Vedic traditions, which is ancient India. And those work really amazingly. And of course, acupuncture. I'm a huge fan. it changed my own life and it helped me so much and this is really what inspired me to do it myself and to go back to school for it. Acupuncture is amazing for relaxing, but it's also great for so many other things, but it also can help with moving that energy blockage. So through acupuncture it ensures more free flow. And one of the things that I noticed when I first started acupuncture was that I came in for my periods. They did regulate and then I realized, hey, I'm a little less stressed at work. I feel a little better if somebody says something that's challenging for me to hear. I felt better [00:14:00] and I was able to receive it better. So that was one of the things that I noticed, and it was probably because, and now I understand it better. My energy and my free flow of QI was much better since I was going to acupuncture. So that is something that I highly recommend. And then just to keep in mind, things like alcohol and caffeine do get filtered by the liver, so having too much caffeine and alcohol has contributed to higher incidences of inflammation and endometriosis, and also fibroids. So the reason being is because those are things that need to get filtered by the liver. If you're giving the liver more work to do and it's going to be taxing, then it is going to impact how it is able to do its job. You ultimately don't wanna give it more toxins to worry about. So it really is something that it needs to filter out. So one of the things that you could do if you suspect that you have a more sluggish liver, or you need to give it a little [00:15:00] more TLC, I would definitely either lower your intake of alcohol and caffeine, and ideally it would be best to eliminate it completely. Similarly, you wanna avoid processed food that have ingredients that you cannot pronounce, all of those chemicals. You also wanna avoid environmental toxins, plastics, really things that will also contribute to a heavier load on the liver. You also want to ensure that you're getting proper sleep. Not only is that going to help your nervous system, but it's also gonna regulate your body overall and your overall chi. It's also going to help the liver. So one of the things that the liver does, as I mentioned before in Chinese medicine, is it soars the blood. And I remember one of my teachers early on telling me. Well, teaching the class that when you lay down, if you're really, really feeling tired and you feel really stressed, just laying down makes it easier for the liver to [00:16:00] store the blood because obviously you're not standing and you're laying. and by doing that, you're actually supporting the liver. So even taking naps sometimes can really help. There are definitely foods that can help, and cruciferous vegetables are amazing and these are really important, especially if you have endometriosis or fibroids. they specifically are really beneficial for the liver, but they're also great in eliminating toxins from your colon as well. So cruciferous vegetables are broccoli, cauliflower, and brussel sprouts. Other things that you can consider are dark leafy greens. And I would suggest cooking them slightly, not overcooking them, but those are actually really beneficial. And it's beneficial to cook because it can help your spleen digest it better. Lemon water on an empty stomach, because in Chinese medicine, the taste. Let me see. Lemon water is amazing because also in Chinese medicine, the taste for and an Ayurveda, the taste for the liver is [00:17:00] sour. And sour tastes and bitter tastes also support detoxification of the liver, so bitter greens think about things like that that will also support the liver. so examples of that are dandelion and turmeric And as far as herbal supplements, you may have heard of milk thistle. Sometimes they'll have a combination tincture that you'll find in health food stores of milk thistle and dandelion. And one of the things that I also wanna mention is that if you are going through IVF and what I typically will suggest to a lot of my clients Is to work on your liver or maybe have a little time in between treatments if possible, so that you're able to assist and maybe take those herbs like milk thistle and dandelion root, and then also something called sulforaphane, which is made from cruciferous vegetables, and it can also detoxify and support the liver. It's important to give [00:18:00] yourself that extra support if you know that your livers already being bombarded with a lot of excess hormones, which happens with cycles. So it is nice to give yourself a little break afterwards where you're able to assist the body in flushing it out. And magnesium is also a very key mineral to help support the liver's function. so ultimately you gotta love your liver. I mean, it has an incredible, incredible role when it comes to your overall health and when it comes to your fertility health. So it's important not to bombard it and really kind of take it as a two step to support it with the right foods, to eliminate things out outside in your environment or even the things that you're eating to encourage a healthier, happier liver. So I hope you enjoyed today's episode, and feel free to share this with anybody that you think can benefit from it. Thank you so much for tuning in [00:19:00] today, and I hope you have a beautiful day.[00:20:00]   

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I'm joined by Jiaming Ju @kunhealth, a second-generation traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) practitioner and health economist who co-founded Kun Health with her father. From leading one of the world's largest longevity data projects to creating personalised Chinese herbal formulations, Jiaming brings a rare and fascinating perspective to holistic fertility care. We dive deep into the roots of Chinese medicine and its powerful role in treating unexplained infertility, recurrent miscarriage, and postpartum recovery. Jiaming shares why customized herbal medicine—rather than a one-size-fits-all approach—is key, and how stress, liver qi stagnation, and over-medicalisation can often stand in the way of conception. We also discuss the importance of preparing the body and mind for pregnancy, how men's health is often overlooked in fertility journeys, and the practice of wu wei—doing nothing—as a healing principle. This is an eye-opening and empowering conversation for anyone navigating fertility or seeking a deeper understanding of the interconnectedness of health, mindset, and tradition. Key Takeaways:  Chinese herbal medicine offers a deeply personalized and effective approach to treating fertility challenges, especially unexplained infertility and miscarriage. Liver qi stagnation and chronic stress are common root causes in fertility struggles. True healing goes beyond quick fixes—it involves preparing the whole body and mind for pregnancy, not just aiming for a positive test. Partner health, especially sperm quality, is often under-acknowledged and under-tested in fertility journeys. Practicing wu wei—intentional rest and non-productivity—can help calm the nervous system and enhance reproductive health. Guest Bio: Jiaming Ju is the co-founder of KUN Health, where she partners with her father to offer personalised Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) care rooted in decades of lineage and wisdom. Before stepping into the world of herbal medicine, Jiaming led one of the largest global data projects on aging, spanning from New York to Singapore. With a background in health economics and longevity research, she brings a unique perspective to healing—bridging ancient Chinese traditions with modern insights. Together with her father, she helps individuals restore balance, improve fertility, and honour the heritage of Chinese medicine through customised herbal formulations and deep one-on-one care. Websites/Social Media Links: Learn more about KUN Health hereFollow Jiaming Ju in Instagram —------------- For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ _____ Transcript: **Michelle Oravitz:** [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast Jiaming.  **Jiaming Ju:** Thank you for having me.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yes. I would love for you to share your background. I know you're second generation, um, traditional Chinese medicine practitioner, which is really cool. Um, I love the fact that you actually have your roots there and your father does too, and I feel like. That kind of takes it to a whole other level when you're working and learning from your parents. So I'd love to hear your background and have you share it with the listeners. **Jiaming Ju:** Uh, so I'm a health economist first. So I was in health, I was in economics basically for 10 years. Um, and. I think before Covid I was running one of the largest think tank on longevity, uh, data collecting in the world at the time in Singapore. Um, and then I came back to the States in 2019 and decided to [00:01:00] retrain for four years. It takes four years in California. And then, um, that's when also around the same time I opened Quinn.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Awesome. So, um, do you Longevity? I think of longevity and I think about fertility. 'cause a lot of times when we treat fertility, we're actually doing a lot of anti-aging. Um, we don't call it that 'cause we're working on mitochondria and really kind of getting the health, um, of the eggs and the uterine lining. So tell us about your experience with fertility and what you've, um, what you've seen. In practice. **Jiaming Ju:** Well, I mean, I work with a lot of people who have unexplained infertility. That's actually an area that, um, that I work a lot in. And, uh, this applies to both men and women among my patients. So I will have. A lot of patients who, uh, you know, they probably had a failed, failed rounds of IVF. [00:02:00] Um, and then that's when we work together. I also have a lot of patients, um, who have repetitive miscarriage, uh, which is increasingly, uh, common, unfortunately. And then I also work with a lot of women on postpartum, which is more on the traditional side, as you know, in Chinese medicine.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yes, and so I know that we often get asked this, and I get asked this too, but I love always hearing the different perspectives on Chinese medicine. To explain to people in layman terms, why does acupuncture and Chinese medicine, I know Chinese medicine's a big umbrella. Acupuncture is really one part. I think most people think just acupuncture, but of course there's MOA herbs. I mean, there's so many different things. There's also auricular, you can get really detailed on that. So can you explain what Chinese medicine could do really to regulate periods, to regulate ovulation? Just kind of help fertility.[00:03:00]  **Jiaming Ju:** Well, I mean, first off, I think I grew up in the Chinese medicine family business, so to me it's very bizarre when people separate them. Um, you  **Michelle Oravitz:** the acupuncture and the herbs and the, **Jiaming Ju:** treatment from the, herbal treatment. However, I think, um, customized herbal formulation has always been the elitist form of Chinese medicine. It takes a lot of family lineage. Um, you know, pre bottled stuff aside for the modern human really, you know, whether you have fertility issues or not is really that one has to take a one-on-one approach to effectively treat something that's very complex. So having said that, um, I only work at Quinn for customized herbal formulation, so we don't do, although I'm licensed, I don't do acupuncture, uh,  **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, got it. Oh, I didn't know that. I thought you did acupuncture as  **Jiaming Ju:** no I don't.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, okay.  **Jiaming Ju:** We have all of you guys who are.  **Michelle Oravitz:** actually, um, I know in China they do separate it. A lot of times people will get really, really [00:04:00] focused on one aspect.  **Jiaming Ju:** Um, yes and no. I think in if, because in China and Korea they have TCM hospitals, right? So you have different departments where post-stroke, you go first off to the acupuncture people, which is the physical therapy part of Chinese medicine. And then. Depending on the severity of the stroke, you likely will get customized herbal formulation on top of that. Um, I usually say that, um, acupuncture is amazing, is like a great deep spring cl that everyone needs it often, um, customized herbal formulation and diagnosis is more like a renovation, so they're entirely different projects. I think when you consider a human as a house, right, you're building a house, you need, you have different needs. Um, in terms of female, I think we go back to the topic. I always like to talk about how, uh, women are fundamentally very, very important in Chinese medicine [00:05:00] because Chinese historically are obsessed with babies. Um, so this is the reason why a long time ago in all these empress, like, you know, like palaces, you will have. Uh, a whole college of hundreds of royal physicians, and they're all Chinese medicine doctors. And their goals are not only to keep, to make sure the emperor can live for as long as possible, is to make sure all these concubines can produce as many kids as possible. So this is why I think the, the practice, um, has a lot more interest in the history, right? The history is being that. We love kids and you want, China has one of the largest population in the world throughout history and you know, so it has a lot of that. You want kids and you need to care about women's health. So in a nutshell, I really like what you mentioned before, like when I actively worked as a, basically a longevity economist and my job was to advise countries in terms of, um, you know, fertility policies, aging population, right? How can you encourage, [00:06:00] and I often say that women's. Women friendly policies are essentially longevity policies. You don't have women giving birth to kids, then you won't have a, you know, sustainable population. This is one of the same. So I really liked you pointed that out. That is totally right. I think not many people think like that. Um. And so in a nutshell, like there is the historical interest then that would mean that in terms of research, there is the interest in the research, there is interest in data, there is, uh, Chinese medicine has been around for 3000 years and gynecology in particular in that field has been around for 3000 years. This is very different with how western medicine has developed. Right? Like c-section technique for example, was developed, I dunno, a hundred years ago, like it is very. It's, it is, it is. So it's really like not comparable in terms of history, even sheer patient number and uh, patient cases. So I think Chinese medicine really in many ways excel in understanding women's health [00:07:00] and fertility. I.  **Michelle Oravitz:** For sure. And I, I always say like with medicine, one of the key things that you wanna look at is how well does it age And Chinese medicine ages really well. So a lot of times you'll see new things, new pharmaceuticals, and then a couple years later you find out it's not as great and then something else comes out with Chinese medicine. I mean, it looks at nature, it really looks at like the elements of nature. That is something that is consistent. It's just part of really understanding that and then understanding ourselves. So I think that that is so cool about Chinese medicine. **Jiaming Ju:** Right. The internal is very much so the physical, right. I have, I'm sure you have too, a lot of patients who on the surface they're like. Really healthy. Uh, but they haven't had a period for three years. So, you know, this is, this is not, and then they will spend the money on Botox. But which then you're like, okay, you look good for maybe a [00:08:00] month, and then you have to do this again. Right. It, it is very different perspective. I think, um, many people say that, you know, why do, for example, in the practice of, uh, postpartum recovery, right? I'm sure you see it, and I see it a lot from the practice where. People who don't have, who are not on top of their health condition, especially in terms of digestive health. I'm more prone to have thyroid issues or, you know, uh, preeclampsia in the last trimester and then post burst. This doesn't only drag their health just downhill. And then also impact how you're going to have a second kid or a third kid if you want to. It really completely like, you know. Like it really completely wrecks your house in a ways that you didn't even see this coming. And that is a completely different perspective, right? Because often I will have patients who say that, oh, you are the first person who listens. How do you know I have these issues? Before I even tell you, I. It is really patterns. And I go back because [00:09:00] I am a nerd and I am an economist. Like I go back to data collecting Chinese medicine like in my father's, you know, practice. Like he will start seeing a kid at the age from the age of five and then she's, he sees the same kid when the kid is 35. You see a person's in a whole families right Conditions throughout their whole life, and That's The best possible data collection you can dream of, and you can think of. This is not just a, oh, here is some pills for antidepressant, for postpartum depression. Like give a women a pill like that. They will still have gazillion other issues, like what does this solve? And you will hear often for people who have postpartum depression, for example, right? Like they will then be dependent on depre antidepressant for the rest of their life. Then one questions. What does that serve? Right? Where does that put you as a human? Do you feel like you are out of control for your own health? Um, so Yeah. it's a different approach.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, completely. Uh, it's interesting you say about [00:10:00] antidepressants because I feel like it's almost, um, a screen in between me and the person. I feel like I'm not able to fully get through to the person with the treatments because there's something in the middle, in the way I. And um, and of course I don't tell them just stop because I know that that is a whole process. They have to be under the care of a doctor and tell them how to come out of it, because it's not something that you can just suddenly take out. I often feel like that. And I'd much rather if I can just treat it with nothing else, it'll be a lot easier. And then another thing too is um, that I thought you said that was really interesting and true is, um, you know, I think a lot of times often people just want that positive pregnancy, but you talked about something that is actually crucial. If people want a healthy pregnancy and then also healthy afterwards for more kids, you really have to think big picture and not just quick fix. And I [00:11:00] think that we're so conditioned for the quick fix that we don't think about the whole garden and really tending the soil. And I always think about it like that. It's like, yeah, we could throw a seed in and maybe that's gonna sprout. But if we don't give it the conditions it needs, those roots aren't gonna go deep and it's not gonna be a sustainable, like rooted sprout, which I think similar with pregnancy, you want not just pregnancy, but you want a healthy pregnancy, and you also want a healthy mom and baby. You need it all. It's not like you can have an unhealthy mom, healthy baby. You have to have the whole picture working together. **Jiaming Ju:** I think that's why like many people getting on IVF, and if you consider it a percentage of success rate for IVF is actually not that high. Right? Um, and then everyone is, and a lot of people are disappointed because they feel like I paid all this money and I, I, I got it. Why is it not happening? I think first off is because we're all conditioned to think that pregnancy is such a simple thing, right? You do it and you'll get [00:12:00] pregnant. Uh, the, in Chinese medicine we always say mental is the physical and vice versa. The impact of stress of our day-to-day demand, of being a modern human, whatever, whatever that means, has a huge number in other fertility potential, right? I often says to, I often say to my, uh, patients, um, and I say like, you know, often because. My patients might, in the middle of it, they're, they didn't come to see me For, fertility, but like after they healed from like long covid or something, they're like, I want to have kids. You know? Now I can really think about it and I will usually say that, you know, definitely be careful with like when you wanna get pregnant, because the healthier you are, the fertile you are, the more fertile you are. Often I think in this society where we talk about IVF technology, ever since it has been introduced, it has become a thing where people feel like, oh, so long as I do it right, I will, it will happen. And often people get very disappointed when [00:13:00] it doesn't happen. And I'm sure you see in your practice a a lot in recent, in the past five years, you know the, there is an increasing percentage of people who have to DOIs. IVF like twice or three times and still maybe without success. Right? Um, so I think there is a lot of, um, a lot to be said about looking at fertility, not just as a functionality that you as a woman or you as a human will just somehow have, but it's really about your overall health, right? Like, and I often talk to people who have repetitive miscarriage. I'm like, your digestive health is everything. Who is gonna carry the baby is gonna be you. Now, if you are having, already having like nausea, dry gagging, like five times a day, even when you're not pregnant, your chances of basically having repetitive miscarriage is probably quite high, right? So we have to fix what's, what is the fundamental thing. It is. Not that let's have a kid, because often [00:14:00] I, um, and I very, I talk about this not very often. But I do treat kids, and you often see a lot of kids who have incredible intolerance for food early in age is due to the fact that mother had a very difficult pregnancy.  Um, so this is very much so linked. It's not, like you said, it's not like the mother has to be in perfect house. So you have a chance, the mother and father in perfect house. So you have a chance of this baby being in perfect house often, even if you could get pregnant, if you have a kid who has so many problems, um, in the first two or three years there, basically. Um, you know, there was one time with a patron of mine who, when he came to see me, he was two and a half years old and he was basically deemed a failure to thrive because he couldn't gain weight and he was having leg diarrhea. Often. He was having crazy eczema. And then you find out the mom during [00:15:00] pregnancy and before pregnancy had a lot of issues. So this is all interlinked. Yeah.  **Michelle Oravitz:** it really is. Another thing I see often is people who do IVF and then they go to the doctor and the doctor says, well, you barely have anything. You really need to start immediately. And I always encourage them, spend a little time prote, you know, preparing yourself if they've never, if they haven't come to me and I say, you're much better off waiting a few months. Taking care of yourself, nourishing yourself, then doing IVF, then rushing into it. 'cause we're just looking at numbers and not kind of thinking about the quality and the preparation.  **Jiaming Ju:** Mm-hmm. ' **Michelle Oravitz:** cause in three months, it's not like you're gonna just lose everything. It's gonna just drop off a cliff. I mean, it's gonna be a few more months. You're gonna be in much better position. **Jiaming Ju:** I think that's totally true. I mean, in, in the old country, in East Asia, when you prepare for pregnancy, six months is very standard. That's when your partner quits smoking. They quit drinking, you know, you both eat [00:16:00] healthy. All of those stuff, Right. Um, and in this country we don't, it's almost like nobody necessarily prepare it. Everyone just expect it would just happen until it doesn't happen after a while and suddenly it goes from, oh, I'm really casual about it, to now I'm in a panic. I must do IVF. Right? Um, and. A large, obviously unexplained infertility has a lot to do with, there are multiple root causes. One of the most common ones I have seen is actually intense liver g stagnation, where often a women consider themselves as a failure for not being able to get pregnant. And the more you and I usually be able to tell with a patient when the first, for the first consultation, they'll say, I need to be pregnant by this date. **Michelle Oravitz:** Right. **Jiaming Ju:** You're not a machine, we're not ai. It doesn't work like that. And often, I also, I don't know whether you experienced this in your practice as well, but I [00:17:00] often, uh, I always ask about better the partner, uh, or whoever, is the sperm donor better? They have tested, oftentimes they have not.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, I agree.  **Jiaming Ju:** has done all the  work then,  **Michelle Oravitz:** I've seen that a lot and and sometimes the doctors don't even mention it.  **Jiaming Ju:** Right. And it is shocking to me because as we all know. through research, uh, I believe it was the newest study done using collective data from Europe, uh, the sperm quality, both in terms of speed and quality per say, is 50% lower than like. 20, 30 years ago, and this is understandable due to drugs, due to not sleeping, due to not taking care of ourselves, Right. Due to stress. So why is it always that we're plowing the field of a women? And I always say this, I said the worst thing would be I'm p plowing your field. And the seed is subpar then. So,  **Michelle Oravitz:** Correct.  **Jiaming Ju:** right? Like, it's so, like, it's So easy. for the man to get checked. [00:18:00] It takes no time at all.  **Michelle Oravitz:** I know. **Jiaming Ju:** So like how is it in this, like, you know. this is almost common sense both in terms of money, in terms of time, get your, get your sperm donor, you know, partner  checked first. Um, it's, uh, It is interesting. **Michelle Oravitz:** It is for sure. And then also, I mean it's, what's interesting is, yeah, you can get checked and everything looks normal and they're like, everything's perfect. But then the DNA might have something off, which. A normal analysis does not cover that. It's a special test that people take after, and usually they won't do that unless there were like miscarriages or there were failures with, um, the embryos to grow. So they'll, they'll then they'll check the sperm. DNA fragmentation. **Jiaming Ju:** It is always a little too late. And interestingly, um, I think even given my own experience, like I have two kids and they were born in different, two different countries, and I. Uh, [00:19:00] the second one who was born in the us I think the, the, even the md, the gynecologist like checkup is very minimum. There was, you know, like if you want like a, a better, clearer picture, you gotta pay more. Like there is like, I think the, the, the standard of what women are provided in this country in terms of like basic, you know, um, like a, a basic kind of gynecological service, um, throughout is very low compared to other countries. Uh, but I mean that also creates a lot of. Tension and anxiety from first time moms. Right. You don't know. And then you show up and then you said you're having some pain and doctor's like, it's okay. And then You know, there  **Michelle Oravitz:** supported because you know, internally something's off. Like, you're like, I know something's off. I'm not crazy, but like, ah, you're fine. It's in your head.  **Jiaming Ju:** right. And I think through and, and I think that's really the fundamental difference between [00:20:00] Chinese medicine and western medicine. Right. Chinese medicine. This is why a lot of people ask me, they're like, you're a Columbia educated economist. You wrote for the Economist magazine, and then you know, you run Nobel Prize winner think tank like, but like Chinese medicine, it must be so different. It's actually not. Health economics is all about getting subjective health data from. The person you interview, that's not so different from what, what we do in Chinese medicine. It's about you being the patient who knows best about your health, right? So if you say you have a pain, you have a pain, I'm, I'm don't live in your body. I don't get to judge you. I think this is also the reason why so many people feel heard. Chinese medicine clinics, um, where they feel like you're just another pregnant person, like time is up, you are leaving. So it's um, it's a very different process. Yeah.  **Michelle Oravitz:** It is such a different process and I actually remember myself the first time I went to an [00:21:00] acupuncturist. This is like kind of what started it all. I was, uh, in a completely different career and I all I could get from every single doctor I went to was the birth control pills. And people hear hearing this, a lot of my listeners already know my story, but it was just basically I had irregular periods and that was the only answer I can get. Never made sense to me on a intuitive sense. I was like, this just doesn't make sense. There's gotta be something. They're like, Nope, that's just your body. The only time you can have normal periods is if you take this. So I went through 12 years of that and the first time I met. My first doctor, Dr. Lee, who's from China, and he actually happened to specialize in gynecology. He sat with me and one of the biggest takeaways, like the biggest impacts that it had, was him listening to me and asking me questions and showing me interest in every part of my life. And I was like, wow, this is crazy. This is so cool. I've never gotten this much attention from anybody [00:22:00] on like, what's going on in my body? **Jiaming Ju:** right.  **Michelle Oravitz:** And then, um, so that was really fascinating. Of course, that did change my period and I was resolved. I, I did the, you know, real raw herbals and the acupuncture. But then also, uh, looking back when I went to school, one of my teachers said, and it kind of like never left my mind that part of the healing, like the therapy starts before a needle goes in. Just by listening and the second you feel heard, that by itself has an impact on your healing. **Jiaming Ju:** Right. The, the physical is mental and that is, um, observed and in every single way we treat patients. I have, I would just say like 90% of my patients not only have like physical ailments, they have a lot of like mental. Concerns as well. Right. Um, and usually as both the, the [00:23:00] mental improved physical improvement and vice versa. And this usually seems very, like, it's like a huge surprise or a big relief to the patients because they're like you. I mean, I, I didn't have to take antidepressant pill for this whole time. Right. Um, it's, I think is, is is, it is a very interesting. Myth we are told, um, and I, I don't mean this as a, as a, something like a, like I'm simply raising this as a question. How is it that we all come in different shape and form, race, color, experience, lifestyle, choices, all of that, and sexes. And then when you say, okay, someone is suppressed, you give everybody exactly the same. The only thing that varies is in the dosage. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yep. **Jiaming Ju:** Isn't that weird?  **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm.  **Jiaming Ju:** Right? Like it, and if you ask people who are depressed, um, I'll give you an example because I have a lot of A DHD patients, um, [00:24:00] especially, um, and The first thing I always ask when I examine the tongue, um, for A DHD patients is better. You have anemia. And often they do. Um, but as we know in Chinese medicine, even if the lab says you don't have anemia, your tongue can tell me you have anemia. The, the chance of you being anemic and showing a DHD symptoms is very high. So is that actually a DHD or not? Oftentimes is actually not true. A DHD. This is the reason why a lot of women who, uh, thought they have a DHD got on A DHD medication and then they crash when they don't take the medication, right, their energy crash, their focus crash. Then if, I mean, this is really a questions like if you take something, it works. The minute you stop, it doesn't work. Did they ever work? Right. It's almost  **Michelle Oravitz:** it resolve it? It's not resolving, it's not a, a true solution.  **Jiaming Ju:** Right. And then [00:25:00] when we talk about pregnancy, it's a similar process, Right. Is this just we implant a child in your body? Great. I'm glad technology works, but I think if I recall back in the days when, uh, IVF was invented, It was not supposed to be used so widely in today's environment. It was for, I believe, for specific reason, Right. There was a, a really strong infertility, I believe structurally for. Was it the researcher? We invented it. So like it was not supposed to be. It's the same thing with C-section. It was not supposed to be widely used. Like today's, I remember when I lived in Singapore, uh, C-section was so popular. It was like, you can pick your date. It was a thing you can pick, pick a auspicious date to give birth to your child, and everyone goes to have a csection on the same day. It wasn't designed like that. It wasn't meant to be used like that. So I think. Modern human need of getting things done. [00:26:00] Like I need to have a child. Here is the child, and here the child is delivered like this need of doing, boom, boom, boom. Just click on your life. To-do list is preventing us to see the garden you talked about is preventing us from really taking care of ourselves and really do the way that we are supposed to do that. Nature enables it because we probably wants too much. I don't know.  **Michelle Oravitz:** It's a too quick to, you know, quick fix. It's, it's going against the dao. It's going against that present moment, that being present because I, my theory or 'cause it wasn't really something that I specifically learned, but like, the more present you are, the more life force q you have because you, in this portal, your energy, your attention, like you said, no separation between the mind and the body. So the more present we are, the more energy could be here. If our minds are here and then it's somewhere else, or our bodies are just here and our minds somewhere else, we're scattered all over the place. [00:27:00] And, uh, so let's actually go back 'cause I thought that was really interesting what you were saying about the liver chi, like really, really severe liver cheese stagnation. Uh, for people listening, I've talked about the liver before, but liver cheese stagnation is severe stress. It's really being, to me it's kinda like being in major fight or flight chronically. **Jiaming Ju:** Mm-hmm. And it is interesting because the liver store is the blood. So some people will say like, especially, it's funny because I lived in New York for a long time and I will always spot a patient from New York, uh, from a mile away because whenever you ask them like, are you stressed? They're like, no, they look really stressed, but they're like, no, I can't handle it. This is intense Stress.  Handling it, you know,  doesn't  **Michelle Oravitz:** first of all, I lived in New York, so I know exactly what you're talking about. 'cause I'm a re recovering New Yorker. And then secondly ahead, I have a, like, I have a patient I could just picture in my head right now. I'm like, how are you doing? Everything's perfect. Everything's fine. Sleep is good. Good, good, good. Great. You know, and I'm like, she, and, [00:28:00] and then like every needle that goes in, oh, oh, you know, she's. **Jiaming Ju:** I think this is the hardest lesson in life. Um, I feel. Um, is to desire something and not getting it, like, either, not on your timeline or like not the way you want it. And I think, um, liver cheese stagnation is exactly that. I mean, traditionally we say, oh, it's anger is more manifested in road rage. But really in today's society, I like to interpret liver cheese technician manifested in ways. That is like a mild, like a irritability, like a constant irritability. You're just waiting people to, to do something wrong and you are snap at them, right? We are all familiar with that kind  **Michelle Oravitz:** It's resistance. It's resistance to life.  **Jiaming Ju:** frustration, right? You're like constantly frustrated. Someone [00:29:00] else got a promotion, you think you are deserve the promotion, you're not seeing anything frustration. It is. What you think in your head you deserve. And the reality, and there is a gross, like mismatching here. Um, and I, every single time I have a patient who comes because of, you know, infertility issues and I will always spend so much time talking to them about their psychology, like mental health. I, the way I do consultations. I have a huge part, at least I think. Total 30% of my total questions about the mental this matters in particular to people who have been having difficulty pregnant because, and I explain it to my patients like this, if you are so stagnant, if your body is so full of stagnation and cheat, where do you think a baby can sit? The baby. The baby has nowhere to sit. There is no room for the child. And [00:30:00] that in a way. Is indeed the hardest lesson because to be pregnant, to be a parent to me personally, I think is the hardest thing in life is, is the uncertainty. You can do everything you do. Right, right. In, in parenthood. You don't know how it's gonna turn out, and this is, this process actually start from getting pregnant. Like so many people feel so certain, oh, I just do it, you know, a couple of times. And during ovulation I will be pregnant. It doesn't work like that in Chinese medicine. You know, when it advocates for healthy pregnancy, it is the Jing, it is the Chi, it is the Ansys, it is the spirit and body of you and your partner.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yep. **Jiaming Ju:** I'm not even a religious person, but I would say that is rather agno agno agnostic like process, right? Because it depends. You need a bit of luck For a [00:31:00] person who is intensely chi stagnant, they don't believe in luck. You, I'm, I don't know whether you've checked this with your patients,  **Michelle Oravitz:** yeah. No, they, they put everything on their shoulders. They think that it's all up to them, and that's why they feel like they need to control, and it's being in that fight or flight because you're in survival mode. And when you're in survival mode, there's not plenty to go around. You need to scrounge and you need to work, and you need to fight to get whatever you need. And that's, um, that's ultimately, you know, from an observer's perspective. Yeah, that's what I see. **Jiaming Ju:** Right. And it is, you will see whenever that happens, you know, it's almost like you as a provider, you are being told like. This is the only thing you're doing. You're, you're giving me a child and then like, this is never gonna work. This is never gonna work because liver cheese stagnation. Really, I feel like clinically is one of the major reasons for unexplained fertility. And that in turn frustrates the person even more because you're telling them structurally there is nothing wrong, [00:32:00] but they just cannot get pregnant no matter what they do. Right. Um, so this is already a deeply frustrating process and telling them that, leave it to. Just follow the protocol and leave it to fate. And you, I will always notice that 50, not 50%, like you always have like 20% of people or 30% of people who are just not, they'll ask you like, what are the best thing I can eat to make this happen faster? Right? Like, what, what is, um, you're going against what you, you know, you're, you're doing exactly the opposite of what you're supposed to. Um, but that is hard. I think  **Michelle Oravitz:** It is hard. Yeah. It, it's, it's one of those things that is often missed and I, I, I actually wrote a book about that. 'cause in the book I don't give any diet tips or anything. Like, I'm like, that's not what's needed. Because everybody can look up like the best diet and there's plenty of great books about what can help. And of course everybody's different and, you know, really understanding kind of your own sensitivities and et cetera. But. [00:33:00] My point is, is that many times people going through the fertility journey are actually very smart. They're very educated, and they educate themselves on. Supplements and what to do. And so they're, they, they have that down, but that's not what it's about. I mean, it's about also the nervous system and I, I say the nervous system 'cause it's more late layman terms, but it's ultimately what the QI does. Like the QI needs to move and to flow. And if we're in this fight or flight, it's stagnates. And so you see that often? **Jiaming Ju:** I think that's really true because it is really about the difficult, the most difficult thing in life is to dive into uncertainty.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. **Jiaming Ju:** You have two types of people who, well, you have three types. One type who just like go with the flow, right? Nothing wrong with that. You have one type who always wanna get ahead before everybody else. They always wanna know everything that's supposed to be done, it comes to being pregnant, having a healthy delivery, [00:34:00] that's actually not how it works. And I think that's, you gotta have a openness. To say, I'm going to dive into this uncertainty because you know what, when a baby is here, when you have to raise this child, right, um, you're gonna need that when they start going to school or even when you homeschool them. It doesn't matter. Like you cannot control everything. And I think that is a very important thing that, uh, really starts even during pregnancy preparation.  **Michelle Oravitz:** You know, I will say it's kind of like meeting the love of your life  **Jiaming Ju:** Right,  **Michelle Oravitz:** and you're not like, you are gonna be the one that I marry. You know, you can't, you, it doesn't work like that. Then the person's gonna wanna run, run away.  **Jiaming Ju:** right. you. can't just come with your list and be like, well, You check every single list here. Right. Um.  **Michelle Oravitz:** it's gotta be a little more romantic and have those, you know, moments of quiet and silence and, and kind of have this dance [00:35:00] happen. **Jiaming Ju:** Yeah. But you know, I, I think the world has in increasingly, has increasingly become a place where. People want bandage solutions. And I think that where, uh, the economy, if you're looking at some like rising industries, that that's what it gives like, right? A product. This is especially the case in America where it's all about something has a product, right? Like what is the one-off solution you could give to that? But things where humans have been doing for centuries, like procreation. Defies the odd of that, no matter how many one-off Band-aid solutions you're gonna have, it's not going to click. And I keep telling this to all my patients who not only just for fertility, but for every odd syndromes under sun, as I have a lot of patients who have very difficult, complex disorders, [00:36:00] is that. When you commit to something that is trying to get pregnant or trying to get better, it's like when you go to a Taoist pimple or you go to any church or any religious place you go and you put a slice of your peace of your heart and peace of your mind there because you are really committed right in that given moment. And that's all I'm asking for as a provider. Um, I always don't always go into it with. But what about this? What about this? What about this? Like, why don't we settle this one first? Um, so, you know, talk about nervous system. You can come down first. Otherwise your nervous system is all over the place where you are like, you're not doing anything like, you know, fully. So.  **Michelle Oravitz:** And what other suggestions do you ever give people, um, suggestions that they could do outside of the. What you're helping [00:37:00] them with. Because I would typically say even like you can come in, do the acupuncture, even take the herbs and supplements. But if you're going back and having a crazy stressful time, then it's going to pretty much negate a lot of what we did. So I'll suggest things even like rounding or spending a little time in the morning of silence or peace just to kind of get themselves into a partnership really with me on their health. **Jiaming Ju:** Um. We have a 16 page behavior report that we customize for every single new patient, um, that I will hold 'em to it. That includes  nutrition and also lifestyle tips for people who try to get pregnant specifically. Um, I give, like, I consider this not as tips. I consider this as just like you need to do it is to get your [00:38:00] husband or your partner or whoever donates the sperm tested as soon as possible and making sure they're not drinking like six. Bottles of beer a day. Like, you know, like if you're in this like, you know, situation prep, pre uh, preparing for pregnancy, they should too. Um, and I usually advocate for morning intercourse rather than night intercourse. During ovulation to increase the chances. Um, and there are a bunch of specific ones. I usually give like on a patient to patient base, but I also will tell people to, um, spend at least one or two hours of, of a day to practice the Daoist principle of Uwe. **Michelle Oravitz:** I love that. That's my favorite, by the way.  **Jiaming Ju:** and I, you know, your New York patients will be like, no. But like, um, can I actually go cycling during that time? I'm like, no. The point of Uwe is you do nothing productive. [00:39:00] Then they have, you put them in a conundrum because they're like, then I'm just wasting my time. I'm like, no.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Wait, so people who don't know wwe, can you explain. **Jiaming Ju:** So WWE is the Daoist principle of doing nothing. Um, it's a practice I regularly issue to people to forcefully calm their mind. So I give a bunch of suggestions through what you can do for your wwe. Like for example, uh, you can knit, but not because. You're knitting for a nephew or something, you're learning to knit, not because you're good at it, it is because you want to. So it's to completely deviate from a lifestyle where we are chasing daily achievement all the time, right? It's more about resting your body and mind and focus on what matters on the present, which traditionally you to think it doesn't matter. So one of my favorite thing, even when I lived in New York City, was to really sit in a random coffee shop and just sit there, read my book or like judge [00:40:00] people's sense of fashion. So I will like people judge when I'm in the cafes. Like, what did you do during that time? Nothing. But I always feel like, great.  **Michelle Oravitz:** But it's like effortless effort. You're still there. It's not like you're totally inactive. You're, you're still there, but you're like in this neutral flow  state.  **Jiaming Ju:** Right, and then that's very important because there is nothing more difficult to a person who tries to get pregnant than thinking they're losing time. They're being told that they're losing time. They're late by every possible doctor under the sun. But you know, that is a time, is a, being late or not is a relative concept, as we say in Chinese medicine,  **Michelle Oravitz:** It's true. **Jiaming Ju:** So oftentimes you'll see people like signing off for IVF, not because they're physical ready, It's because they are told they are short on time, right? You don't do this now, you can't do it in three months. But statistics don't work like that. Like you said, you know, [00:41:00] within three months, your body's not going to dramatically change. You, you must well spend the time to take care of yourself, then really increase your chances rather than, I'm gonna dive into this when I'm super stressed. Um, pinning so much hope on this. Um, so yeah, again, I mean, I, I think that's really the thing, like having a child and being pregnant is not just something you must do in life. It's a, it's more than that. It's a mild, it's, it's, um. It's a face in life. One doesn't have to have it, but if you do decide to have it, I, I really think that people need to take a broader view on it.  **Michelle Oravitz:** 100%. I think that is so beautifully put because it is a big picture and it's um, you can't just take the part and then look at the part and say, okay, that's it. You have to look at like. How it interplays and works together as a [00:42:00] whole organism. And that's when you get the big picture. And, um, yeah. And I think about like, you know, the yin and the yang, you know, being too young all the time, you're gonna burn out the yin and that's ultimately the nervous system right there, having that balance. **Jiaming Ju:** Yeah, exactly. I think the society demands us to constantly deliver.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. **Jiaming Ju:** The question is, what are you delivering? There isn't a return policy for a parent once the child is here. You are responsible for them for life. Um, so this is not just, I'm just, I just wanna get pregnant. This is a how it's going to completely transform your life wrecking you because your identity will be rewritten the minute you are pregnant, uh, when you become a parent. Um, and I think people need to probably, you know, take it, I always say like, take it more seriously, but [00:43:00] also take it less seriously. I. Because I think people take it really seriously on the, am I pregnant or not pregnant part, Right. But that don't take that too seriously, but like people need to consider what that means. The implication at your health more seriously.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, for sure. And so if people, and it's, it, it really helps to have somebody to work with because I think that. There's a lot of reminders that can be done from somebody who's looking at it more objectively and not in it because it's very hard to understand, um, what you're sharing if you're not working with somebody else. And I think that that's like the benefit on top of obviously getting the therapy, but also getting, you know, the treatments and also. Getting that perspective because when you're too in it, it's very hard to decipher. So I think that that is very priceless. Um, so for people who want to work with you, what do you offer? **Jiaming Ju:** [00:44:00] I think the, if you're interested in, and I always say this as a dare and those are kinds of my favorite tongue, tongue readings to do, is that people who say like, no, I won't tell you anything. I just give you my tongue, and then they're completely in shock when I spell out all your, their life secrets. So I think That's the number one thing you can do. Um, and in these tongue readings, I also give three quick suggestions, but I give a very good overview of like what you're not telling me about what's happening, wizard Health. Um, and that's a very fun thing to do. 'cause everyone has a tongue, right? And tongue reading is one of the most traditional things we offer in Chinese medicine. Uh, but usually the serious, more serious part. Is the one-on-one consultation with me online. And um, and then customized herbal formulation. I would say like 95% of my one-on-one patients on customized herbal formulation. And then. We do the monthly follow up for [00:45:00] that. And then there is also a bunch of digital small booklets, recipe books like that we, um, that I have written. For example, I have a postpartum recipe booklet that I highly recommend for anybody who is pregnant. And you don't know what, what really you heard about this myth about Chinese women eating different things postpartum. You don't know what that is. Uh, I wrote. A 20 page I believe, recipe book that  includes breakfast, lunch, and dinner and snack. Uh, for that. So That's a lot of like self study resources as well. Yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** That's great. Um, sounds awesome. And you do raw herbs.  **Jiaming Ju:** no, I only do gran.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, granule, which is so easy, but it also is effective because it's easy to digest, easier  **Jiaming Ju:** right. And everything is made to order. So we have patients from Scotland to, to Singapore. It's, it. is we, so it's, uh, everything is made to order and I co-write a formula with my dad for every single [00:46:00] patient. So,  **Michelle Oravitz:** Fantastic. And how can people find you? **Jiaming Ju:** Uh, you can follow us at Quinn House, KUN House. Uh, I believe we're on TikTok as well, but I never check TikTok. I'm a little bit scared of TikTok, so, um, Instagram is my  **Michelle Oravitz:** It's funny, I never got into TikTok too. I just do reels on Instagram. I just love Instagram. **Jiaming Ju:** Yeah, I think TikTok is a little bit of a wild scenario, but, um, yeah, Instagram is where I, I think do the most, so.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Awesome. Well, it was such a pleasure talking to you. You sound like a wealth of knowledge and I love your perspective and really how you understand, um, really from diet and, and also herbals, which is an art in itself. So thank you so much for coming on today. It was such a pleasure talking to you.  **Jiaming Ju:** you. [00:47:00]     

On today's episode, I'm joined by Dr. Peter Martone @drsleepright, an educator, injury prevention specialist, and chiropractic expert who has spent the last 25 years transforming health by helping people sleep better through spinal alignment. After a personal injury led him to uncover a surprising link between poor sleep posture and chronic health issues, Dr. Martone developed what he calls the “Corrective Sleeping Position” a method that supports spinal health, optimises vagal tone, and enhances parasympathetic nervous system function. We dive into how nervous system imbalances impact fertility, why improving sleep is about who you become, and how simple shifts in your sleep setup can profoundly change your energy, hormone regulation, and overall wellbeing. Dr. Martone also introduces his animal sleep avatar test and shares practical advice on how to align your body and mind for optimal healing, starting in bed!   Key Takeaways:  The autonomic nervous system plays a central role in fertility, especially the parasympathetic (rest and digest) system. Correct spinal alignment during sleep can reduce nerve interference and improve organ function, including reproductive health. Many fertility challenges can stem from imbalances in vagal tone and nervous system inhibition. Dr. Martone's “Corrective Sleeping Position” helps improve heart rate variability and promotes deeper healing at night. Sleep isn't just about rest—it's about becoming a better, more aligned version of yourself. Guest Bio: Dr. Peter Martone @drsleepright, is an educator, injury prevention specialist, and patient care health practitioner with over 25 years of experience in improving biomechanics and overall wellbeing. As a chiropractor and exercise physiologist, he has long held the belief that spinal structure directly impacts the function of the central nervous system, and that interference in this system is often at the root of chronic health issues. Today, Dr. Martone uses this foundational principle to help people achieve W.A.Y. Better Sleep, a transformative approach that supports healing through sleep posture and nervous system alignment. His groundbreaking techniques have been featured on CBS, NBC, Fox News, and more than 50 international podcasts. Dr. Martone now travels the country teaching individuals how to reclaim their health, starting in bed. Websites/Social Media Links: Dr. Peter's WebsiteFollow Dr. Peter on Instagram Check out Neck Nest here —------------- For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ Transcript: [00:00:00] Episode number 334 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. My guest today is Dr. Peter Martone. Dr. Martone is an educator injury prevention specialist and patient care health practitioner who has been focused on improving patients biomechanics for over 25 years. During his private practice as a chiropractor and exercise physiologist, Dr. Martone always believed that the structure of your spine affects the function of the central nervous system, and this interference is at the root cause of most of the chronic problems people face. Dr. Martone now uses this principle as the cornerstone to help people get WAY better sleep. His techniques have been featured on C-B-S-N-B-C, Fox News and over 50 international podcasts. He currently travels the country teaching people how to regain their health in the bed by getting [00:01:00] way better sleep.  Michelle Oravitz: Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Marone.  Dr. Peter Martone: Thank you so much for having me. I can't wait to dive in. Michelle Oravitz: Me too. So I'm really intrigued. We have not had a chiropractor yet on the show. However I love chiropractic work and I also believe. That it can help a lot with the nervous system. And I often talk about the nervous system and how that impacts fertility. So I'm really excited to have this conversation. And before we get started, I would love for you to give us a bit about your background and how you got into the work that you do, and especially when it comes to [00:02:00] sleep.  Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah. Wow. That's like a, it's a big zigzag. A lot  Michelle Oravitz: It always is.  Dr. Peter Martone: we  Michelle Oravitz: It always  Dr. Peter Martone: wait. I never thought up. I never like, woke up one day and said, oh, you know what? I'm gonna be in the most exciting field of my life. I'm gonna be in the sleep industry. Like, it's so, it was like so boring. But you know, it, so what I was, I'm a chiropractor, I'm an exercise physiologist, a nutritionist. I've always loved the to help people. Improve their function and quality of life by changing their lifestyle. So I was, I was, I was big on helping people, what's called balance, the autonomic nerve nervous system. So there's, in our, in our system, we have organs and our organs are typically not controlled by like the conscious nerves that controlled by like autopilot stuff, which is the sympathetics and the parasympathetics. So what I found a long time ago is that most people when they have chronic illness or dysfunction. They have an imbalance within that autonomic nervous system. So I [00:03:00] spent a good part of my first 15 years in practice helping people balance their autonomic nervous system until finally, and I always had bad back, which isn't really what brought me to chiropractic. What brought me to chiropractic is I got adjusted once and my stomach problem went away, and, and I'm like. I'm a chiropractor, I have a bad spine, and I was in a little bit of an injury mountain biking, and I finally herniated my disc. So I was in the emergency room. I'm sitting there saying, how can I come to this? I've been helping people with back pain and wellness, and I'm now hooked up on Dilaudid because I'm in the emergency room because I'm, I was just, my back finally failed. And in your own brain? at a subconscious level, I felt like I was a failure because I'm like, how can. I not help myself, so not a really good place to be. And then, so out of big lows, a lot of times you can learn from those. And, and I have a very [00:04:00] competitive mind, so I'm like, I gotta figure this out. I have to figure out why I had disc issues and, back problems. So I started reviewing x-rays. I reviewed 3000 x-rays and I found a pattern. And that pattern was I had loss of cervical curve in my neck. And, and due to an adaptation, which I found is that it, it adapts with a, what's called a SOAs, major muscle spasm in your lower back, and the SOAs attaches directly to a disc. So I'm like, holy Mac, maybe I had a neck issue, no pain in my neck. Maybe I had neck issue all this time, and it was messing with my lower back. So I'm like, well, how do I fix that? I've been getting adjusted. I'm like, the only time I can do it is a one third of my life. I ba basically do nothing and that's sleeping. So I started to cha, I was always a side sleeper. I curled up in a ball and my back was always twisted. I had shoulder issues and I'm like, you know what? I bet you it's alignment when I'm sleeping. So I started [00:05:00] to put pillows under my neck and I started to force myself to sleep in a specific position, which we now call the corrective sleeping position. Then once I started to. Have my patients sleep in those positions. Now, their chronic issues I've been dealing with, they're needing me so much less because their body's healing really at night while they sleep, which now, hence now another 10 years later. I am in the sleep industry after 25 years of zigzag, right? Michelle Oravitz: That's so interesting. And so how have you noticed that impact? Well, actually let's take it back to like why chiropractic works, not just for the spine. I think people think, just like you said, you went for for back pain or for the stomach pain, or you ended up getting your stomach issues resolved. People don't, may not realize that chiropractic work. Can impact [00:06:00] internal organs, systems and other things other than just your back.  Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah. So let's look at, so this is gonna be a really different way for people to think, okay, but I'm going to make it and break it down into a very simple analogy. If you go to into a room and there are lights in the room, and then you take the dimmer switch and you dim the switch down to 50%. Somebody walks into this room, they're like, wow, it's really, it's not light in this room. Now what you would do is you go to the Dimmi switch and you turn it up. Well, now in our current paradigm, people don't even look at the dimmi switch as the problem. They look at the light bulb, which is the organ. Nobody looking at the nervous system going to that organ. They all look at the organ. So they'll put new bulbs in there. They'll put a transformer in there that puts more energy at the bulb when. The pressure, the, the, the li the, the dim switch being down is an issue. [00:07:00] So the spine is basically your fuse panel to the body and, and it's set up where these nerves come out of these holes in the spine. And if the spine's out of alignment or your hips out of alignment or your neck's out of alignment and you have these curves, you're putting pressure on a nerve. There's research that's been done. Pressure equal to the weight of a quarter on a nerve will cause a nerve to malfunction by 60%, leaving it only with 40% function. So think about that. If the nerve is only functioning at 40%, how can the organ be healthy? And nobody on the planet looks at that as cause of disease, except chiropractic. Everybody looks at it like, oh, you just get your spine adjusted 'cause you're in pain. I was never in the industry for pain. And I tell my patients, listen, I'm a little different. I said, look, I wanna help you with the pain, but if you are walking with one shoe on and one shoe off, you're gonna have back pain. If I just focus on [00:08:00] your back and I don't create it, don't fix the imbalance, then you're just gonna be dependent on what I do. And that's the same thing. Now, when we help our clients with chronic illness and fertility and breathing issues and digestion issues, the first thing we do is align the spine, turn up the dimmer switch. Then we see what happens. Internal organs. Michelle Oravitz: Interesting. And so what I know that obviously. Because I know in Chinese medicine there's so many different reasons that cause one thing, so we look at the root cause for fertility conditions. What have you seen so far? I.  Dr. Peter Martone: That is so great. So that's a great question. Now when within our sleep system we the, the, I guess you can say the crust. That, that connects all the, all the other, like everybody give anything that most of the experts tell you, you can Google, right? Oh yeah. Room temperature and beds and all this stuff. It's all [00:09:00] Googleable. But the crust that holds all of the, be the missing pieces, the crust, and that's, we live our life through our nervous system and everything we say, do function, feel, happens through that system. So when you look at fertility, don't look at it as the infertility, as the issue. That's the outcome. Look at it as. What controls fertility? People would say hormones, right? What controls hormones? Nervous system. Okay. What specific nervous system? That nervous system is called the parasympathetic nervous system. The parasympathetic nervous system is your thrive nervous system verse, your survive nervous system, which is your sympathetics. So you can either run from a tiger and you're in survive 'cause your body needs to get away from it. You can sleep and thrive. So our bodies thrive at night and survive during the day. So it needs to be a balance. The three systems that are controlled by your Thrive system. And when you have infertility, you have [00:10:00] an issue with all three of these systems. It's immune system, it's digestive system. It's reproductive system, so anybody that has an issue with one or of them has an issue with all three of them because you have an issue with parasympathetic inhibition. So, so it's not that you're just all sympathetic dominant because you're, you know, you're, you're super excited, you're inhibited because you're dimmer switch is down 50% and nobody's addressing it. So most of the time what we see with our, our patients that have infertility, they have issues at the atlas, which is right at the brainstem, and it's due to loss of function there, or it's down in the Coio plexus, which is in the, which is in the, in the, in the coic, which is in the pelvis. So a lot of times it's pain associated, but there's also digestion issues. There's eczema, there's skin issues, there's all of these other issues. But all, all that's telling us is the nervous system imbalance. Michelle Oravitz: That's interesting. It's interesting that you pointed [00:11:00] behind the ears because that's where you can stimulate the vagus nerve.  Dr. Peter Martone: Correct. That's, that is the reason why, 'cause it's true to the carotid sheath. There's three nerves that go through there. It's the vagus, the glossopharyngeal, and the spinal accessories. So, lot, lot of times if, if a, a woman has infertility, she has definitely a loss of cervical curve, but. Her hands might fall asleep or she has a thyroid issue also because of that forward posture, or she gets reflux because of the upper portion of the stomach is also addressed by the carina, which is, you know, the cough reflux Michelle Oravitz: Interesting. And do you see this for men? Men as well?  Dr. Peter Martone: I do, but a different manifestation of symptomatology. A lot of times that's gonna be a low testosterone. That's gonna be like especially with men with the prostate is a, is a big issue at that area, but men, women, some, a lot of times will have it. We're, we're seeing it now more than ever in women. I have my own theories on it, actually. I believe it's covid [00:12:00] vaccine, but they we're seeing a lot of heart palpitations, so we're seeing a lot of imbalance within the arrhythmia of the heart. That's why I am I have these rings on. I always measure my heart rate variability and that's what  Michelle Oravitz: Oh yeah. I love that. The HeartMath.  Dr. Peter Martone: clients. Yeah, absolutely. Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, so, so talk about that. I talk about it a lot too, but I always like to get different perspectives. 'cause I feel like even if it's the same topic, if somebody else talks about it, you might get something different. So,  Dr. Peter Martone: This is so great. So the, so just to understand what heart rate variability is, is your heart needs to beat. And when you're running from a tiger, your body wants a very rhythmic beat so that the muscle in the brain can really consistently know the amount of sugar that the organs are getting, right? So the, so when you're sympathetic dominant, which means you're in survival, you have a very rhythmic heart rate, which means if you, let's say, have a a heartbeat of 60 beats per minute, every second you have a beat. And that's what [00:13:00] people think is good. That is really bad to have that chronically because you put the same stress on the heart and the heart will fail. So when you're, when you're in thrive or you're parasympathetically dominant, your body's ready for anything. So the heart rate is very in irregular interval. So instead of every second, maybe it's 0.75 seconds. Then the next one is 1.1 second. Then the next one's 0.5 seconds. Then the next one's 0.8 seconds. So it's done. So you're, you're spreading the stress around the heart, which is a very healthy thing to do for the heart. But what that's telling us is when you are, when your heart rate variability is high, your parasympathetic dominant. When your heart rate variability is low, you're sympathetic dominant. So most people that have dysfunction, especially in the, in the autonomic nervous system or in the parasympathetic nervous system like fertility, they're going to have low HRV readings because they're going to be [00:14:00] sympathetic dominant. Whether it's due to parasympathetic inhibition because you're, you're turning, you're putting pressure at the brainstem on the vagus nerve, or it's due to you just so stressed that you never turn this on into weak muscle, whether it is, you can analyze that through these trackers and then, and then we can then, let's say meditate and then connect the subconscious brain to a scent every time you meditate and then take a heart rate variability reading. Then know what improves your high rate variability during the day, then connect you to a scent any other time. That's a scent. So when you smell the scent, your HRV comes down and then you can start to retrain the  Michelle Oravitz: It's an association.  Dr. Peter Martone: Yes. Michelle Oravitz: That's interesting 'cause I've said that before. You know, that's what in India they used to put the incense on during meditation. So immediately when you smell it, it puts you in that state so that it's quicker to get into a deeper state of meditation. And it's kind of [00:15:00] interesting how really the heart becomes so adaptive when we're in this rest and digest mode. The parasympathetic. And it's also more creative in a sense because it's not, it doesn't act predictably. It's creative based on the needs, And that's  Dr. Peter Martone: becomes creative when  Michelle Oravitz: and your body becomes creative,  Dr. Peter Martone: then yeah, the mind becomes creative because you're taking the blood from the, what I call the immature, ignorant child brain, right? Or the Yeah, the, the, the, the  Michelle Oravitz: reptilian  Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah. Reptilian brain. And it starts to transfer it to where really, where you can get true inspiration and innovation in, in, in, in that, in the back portion of the brain. So you can, you can start to think better and consequently. You, we, my, my daughter's now working on one of my companies and she's like, dad, I don't care what's mindset mastery? Because we have five core elements of sleep. I'm like, honey, mind [00:16:00] mindset mastery is like everything, right? If you, if you can master your thoughts, remember thoughts, create an adaptation within the nervous system. So if you want to. Be sympathetic, dominant, fair anxiety, financial stress, relationship, stress, hate, envy. Those are sympathetic emotions. If you want parasympathetic emotions, focus on gratitude, love, caring, prayer. Those are parasympathetic emotions. So if you can master the mind and focus the thought, which you can. Then you can focus the neurology, which is the real step in bringing back control in chronic illness. Michelle Oravitz: So fascinating. I love this topic and I love how you could look at it in so many different ways, but there's so many different schools of thought and they all kind of point to the same thing, even like ancient. Teachings and then now some of the current [00:17:00] research that's coming out. And it's fascinating because it really is something that can be measured, like you said, with the heart rate variability and also the heart brain coherence, and that they do actually communicate, you know, there's a communication between the two and the fact that people do have a choice in this, I think that that is often missed. I think that people don't realize that they actually have a choice.  Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah, and I think that that's, you know, that is a great. Way to say it, right? You do have a choice. And, and like I told my daughter, I'm like, you have a choice on what to think, right? And, and, and, and what we focus on is what we become.  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm.  Dr. Peter Martone: When you are looking like, think about this. So I'm not, we haven't even talked about sleep. I've only talked about my intention. My intention is balance, the autonomic nervous system and health. Sleep is, you can't just put your head on a pillow. Buy. Buy a new what? Buy a new pillow. Buy a new [00:18:00] bed, buy a new sleep supplement and get better sleep. So what we talk about is who do you have to become to do what you need to do during the day? And then sleep is a byproduct of living a healthy life in our intention is everything. Our intention is balance in the nervous system. Yes, I wanna help you sleep, but I didn't enter the sleep industry to make you a better sleeper. I'm there now. I entered the sleep industry to allow you to become a healthier individual. So who are you when you're waking up? I want that to be a better version of you, A more energetic version of you. So we have this animal sleep avatar test that we have people take. It's a free test. And what animal do you sleep like? And then based on what animal you sleep, like I can give you. The tips specific to how you sleep and tell you how you need to fall asleep because each animal needs to fall asleep differently. Michelle Oravitz: That's fascinating. That's so, so I'd love to hear how you approach sleep altogether, like how [00:19:00] your method works to doing that. You'd mentioned obviously figuring out really how you sleep, what type of animal but how do you really help people? What are the different steps you take them through?  Dr. Peter Martone: So the, the, so think about, think about the, let, let's look at sleep as an analogy. This is a analogy that we're actually putting into our way Better Sleep program now is think about it as a, a battery charger. Okay? First thing you do with the battery charger or a charger is you have set up. So first have to set it all up, plug it in. You have to, you know, do a whole bunch of stuff to set up. Set up is how you fall asleep. Okay? I have three steps. It's called the triune of sleep, so we put people to sleep. Then we have the five core elements of sleep, which is when you're sleeping, are you waking up refreshed? How much. Is your energy being recharged? Are you only recharge it from, you know, zero to 25%, [00:20:00] 25 to 50%, 50 to 75? Or are you waking up like me? You are freaking ready for the day because your battery is so full. So most of the time where, where it, it's too complicated to dive into the five core elements 'cause there's just so much. That you have to do. It's, it's, it's, it's be, do, have, it's changing your life, eating right, being fit, and thinking well. So, so we, we have different roadmaps on every month. We change a different lifestyle habit to be, make somebody become healthier and then a better sleeper. But I think really where, where the most applicable advice I can give you right now is the setup in talking about what we call the triune of sleep. This is what 99% of the people on the planet get wrong. And this is why really my first step was figuring out the triune. And then the other step, you know, is different. So the triune of sleep is [00:21:00] this. You have three things at play when you need, when you're falling asleep, you have the body, the need, the needs of these three things, the needs of the body. The needs of the subconscious brain and then the needs of the conscious brain. Okay? The body wants alignment. It just doesn't want to be in pain. It just, it needs to be in a pain-free situation. The average person tosses and turns 20 to 40 times a night because the body's in pain. That's it. That's why we toss and turn, so. The next thing is the subconscious brain. The subconscious control sleep. The body pain will interfere with sleep or the subconscious control, sleep, the subconscious need. Safety. The sub body just wants to feel safe and protected. I grew up in Malden, Massachusetts and it was on a busy street, and every once in a [00:22:00] while the kids would bang on my window to play a prank. I was on the front, front porch, so I thought when I went to sleep I was going to get abducted every single night. So the only reason I could, I would be able to fall asleep is I'd have to put all my stuffed animals around me. I'd curl up in a ball to feel safe, then I would be able to fall asleep. So think about that. When you put your kids to sleep, there's subconscious need for sleep, and the reason why they wanna sleep with you is safety. And now the. The conscious brain, it's where everything screws up. It's like, oh my God, I wanna feel comfortable. You're not comfortable 'cause the body isn't comfortable. What you mistake for comfort is safety for the con subconscious brain. So the conscious brain screws everything up. So we have a whole host of things that we do to get people mindset mastery, to get them out of their consciousness, and we can go over some of those. So to set the try put, most people put themselves to sleep with their conscious brain thinking they're comfortable. We want to [00:23:00] reverse the triune, put the body in an aligned position. I, I'll show you that in a second. It's called the corrective sleeping position. This position inherently is unsafe for the subconscious brain. That is where people take an animal sleep avatar test to develop to, to identify the amount of safety that needs to be created by each avatar. So you have a gorilla and armadillo and an ostrich. Ostrich, it wants to stick its head under the ground. Right. It is so timid. You know, that's where abuse relationships, those are timid, timid people that need so much safety created. You know, when you sleep, it's gonna be very difficult to get them to sleep in a line position. Then you have the armadillos, which are like 60% of the population. They curl, they, they, they need safety, but they curl up in balls. They, they like to have their, you know, on their side with that pressure on their  Michelle Oravitz: That's me.  Dr. Peter Martone: And then I can tell 'cause your head's tilted [00:24:00] and then, and then  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, is it  Dr. Peter Martone: it is, and then when, and then the gorillas, they can, you know, they can fall asleep anywhere. So, so depending on what avatar you are, then we give you advice and tips based on your avatar to  Michelle Oravitz: husband's a gorilla  Dr. Peter Martone: yeah. Right.  Michelle Oravitz: anywhere  Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah.  Michelle Oravitz: with his mouth open.  Dr. Peter Martone: And then and then, and, and then, and then from there, then we teach you to, to shut down the conscious brain. Michelle Oravitz: Got it. That's interesting. So what's the proper position?  Dr. Peter Martone: All right. Is this, is this on video?  Michelle Oravitz: Well, it is for some people  Dr. Peter Martone: Okay. So then what you'll do is  Michelle Oravitz: you guys could check, check it out on YouTube if you wanna check this out.  Dr. Peter Martone: and then you explain what I'm doing. Okay.  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm.  Dr. Peter Martone: Alright, so the position is typically, hold on, I gotta, I don't, I've shorted an out outline. Alright, I'll  Michelle Oravitz: Okay. He's moving away from his mic, so I'll have [00:25:00] to explain. I.  Dr. Peter Martone: Okay. All what I have right now is I have a a neck nest. That's the pillow we created, but you can do this with a soft down pillow or, and, or, you know, any type of  Michelle Oravitz: so he's got basically a pillow. that looks like it's gonna support his neck, Right?  Dr. Peter Martone: Yep. So the one thing with sleep is, or, or anytime you support something in the body, you weaken it. I, that's why, you know, sneakers or art supports, it weakens the foot. Back support weakens the back chair. Support weakens the back. A pillow defined as a support for your head. Anytime you support your head, you weaken the cervical curve. So what you wanna do is you wanna support the neck, but let let the head hang off the back of the pillow so it's not supported  Michelle Oravitz: So basically just have a pillow for your neck.  Dr. Peter Martone: And then you don't want the head supported because the weight of [00:26:00] your head will cause a, a sense of distraction. And that distraction will reinforce the curve in the neck, aligning it, improving vagal tone, improving the function of the vagus nerve. So just by sleeping in this position, you're gonna improve higher rate variability by 10 to 30%. Michelle Oravitz: Interesting. Okay, so he's basically laying on his back and he is got something that looks like a bolster, but it's soft and it surrounds his neck. He put, he has it supporting his neck and it surrounds on the side, and then his head is not supported behind it. It's just laying back.  Dr. Peter Martone: Yes. And that's, that's the design that we created with the Neck Nest. So I'll, this is, so I'll show you now how to do it with like a sound. It would be. It has to be a soft, soft pillow. This is what I used before we created the ness. So I, I would put pillows on their edges [00:27:00] and see a pillow is support for your head. You do not wanna support your head when you're sleeping on your back. You want to support your neck and allow the head to hang off the back. Michelle Oravitz: Okay, so now he's using it with a pillow, but having the pillow on its side, so it's basically not laying flat and it's a very soft pillow, so he's able to adjust it.  Dr. Peter Martone: of your head is unsupported. That is really, really, really important. Michelle Oravitz: That's interesting. I'm gonna try that.  Dr. Peter Martone: It's,  Michelle Oravitz: I'm gonna try that.  Dr. Peter Martone: That's awesome.  Michelle Oravitz: So you gotta train yourself to be a back sleeper.  Dr. Peter Martone: Yes. Well, you have to train yourself to fall asleep in that position. Remember, when you are trying to start to get to that type of mindset where you gotta be a back sleeper, you're not in control. All you have to train yourself to do is fall asleep in that [00:28:00] position and go take your animal avatar test, and then it'll tell you how to, how you need to create safety to start in that position because you won't be able to shut off the brain. Actually, you know what? Let me give you another tip. Because this is important. If you're gonna start to fall asleep in this position, a lot of times people will feel like they're falling backwards or they, they, they'll, they'll, they'll lose their breath because their body does not like that extension, because of the vestibular. You feel like you're, you know, you, you're, you're, you're,  Michelle Oravitz: you're not supported.  Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah. Yeah. Your, well, your body your body's brain or valid system doesn't like it. So you can use either a bed wedge or something and sleep slightly sitting up.  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm.  Dr. Peter Martone: another way that I do this  Michelle Oravitz: So he's saying to put a bed wedge if that's the case. If it makes you feel uncomfortable Or not safe and supported, you can use a bed wedge. [00:29:00] And then on top of that, use that neck support that he was mentioning before.  Dr. Peter Martone: if you don't have a bed wedge, which a lot of people don't, you can put two pillows. See how I have two pillows down there Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. So instead of a bed wedge, you could put two pillows to support your back.  Dr. Peter Martone: and then  Michelle Oravitz: So that it elevates you  Dr. Peter Martone: And then you're sleeping elevated. Michelle Oravitz: got it. Yeah. So you could elevate yourself to make That, an easier way to fall asleep. Interesting. Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah. that  Michelle Oravitz: you got me curious. And that helps your vagus nerve and it helps get you in parasympathetic mode, which helps your hormones. Gets you in creative mode, which of course the physical creativity is your fertility. Dr. Peter Martone: And that you can't Google,  Michelle Oravitz: No, that's really fascinating. So how can people find this or really find out how [00:30:00] to like learn all of these amazing techniques?  Dr. Peter Martone: they can take they can go to Dr. S-L-E-E-P-R-I-G-H-T, that's dr. Sleep right.com. They can take a free animal sleep avatar test and then, then you're in our world, you'll get some you'll get anytime we do like sleep things, you can do that. And then there you can find out about our programs. And then if you wanna dive deeper and, and look into Neck Nest, there's you can get a link for to Neck Nest from there. Michelle Oravitz: That's so interesting. Dr. Peter Marone. This is really, really fascinating. I've never had anybody come on here and talk about it with also, I mean, first of all, talk about this subject, but also with such a unique approach to sleeping.  Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah, thank you. It's we put a lot of, a lot of sleepless nights into it and you know, now it's, it's act two, it's, my mission is to change the way the world sleeps. Helping them get way better sleep. And the way [00:31:00] is awakening the full potential of a well-rested, aligned you and the you's important. It's who do you need to become to have the be be the best version of you? And, and it's, it's not, I wanna have it right. I want to have better sleep. Then you're just gonna go from what to what? To what, to what to what. And it's like, who do you need to become to change your mind to be able to get there? Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. And so really the idea is getting into that state and the new habits will help you stay asleep.  Dr. Peter Martone: It's, it's, it's amazing how it, once you start to work on the drills of the 10 minute sleep ritual, which is putting yourself to sleep for the setup. Then the five core elements of what you do during the day is fun because now you're just becoming healthier and  Michelle Oravitz: Right. Feel more arrested,  Dr. Peter Martone: gonna make you a better sleeper. As long as you get the, if you don't plug the, the charger in you,  Michelle Oravitz: then you're grumpy. you don't wanna learn anything.  Dr. Peter Martone: exactly.[00:32:00]  Michelle Oravitz: We don't wanna be grumpy,  Dr. Peter Martone: No  Michelle Oravitz: we wanna feel good. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing this amazing information. And so, so you gave them the email. Is there, I mean the website, is there any other place that people can find you or learn  Dr. Peter Martone: We're, we're on Instagram at Dr. Sleep Wright. We're on TikTok now. We just had one thing go over a million views.  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, cool.  Dr. Peter Martone: It's. Sleep. Right. So, Dr. Sleep Wright is the is the brand that you'd be able to find me on. Michelle Oravitz: Fantastic. Well, thank you so much Dr. Martone for coming on. today. This is a great conversation.  Dr. Peter Martone: Thank you for having me. Michelle Oravitz: Awesome. [00:33:00]   

On today's solo episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I'm sharing one of my greatest passions Ayurveda, and how this ancient healing system can deeply support your fertility journey. Ayurveda, which translates to “the study of life,” is a holistic approach that brings harmony to the body, mind, and spirit. In this episode, I'll walk you through the three doshas Vata, Pitta, and Kapha, and how understanding your unique body type can empower you to make daily choices that support reproductive health and overall well-being. You'll learn how to identify your dominant dosha, how to nourish and balance it with specific foods, yoga practices, and self-care rituals, and why Ayurveda is such a powerful and intuitive tool for restoring balance. Whether you're new to Ayurveda or looking to integrate it more fully into your life, this episode is filled with practical guidance to help you feel more connected, grounded, and supported on your path to fertility. Key Takeaways:  Ayurveda is a holistic science that balances the body, mind, and spirit to promote fertility and overall health. There are three primary doshas Vata (air & ether), Pitta (fire & water), and Kapha (earth & water) each with unique physical, emotional, and energetic characteristics. Understanding your dosha helps you make personalized lifestyle and nutrition choices that support hormonal balance and reproductive health. Vata types benefit from warmth, grounding, and healthy fats; Pitta types thrive on cooling, anti-inflammatory foods; and Kapha types need stimulation, lighter foods, and movement. Daily practices like dry brushing, self-massage, and tailored yoga routines can deeply support nervous system regulation and fertility. Ayurveda provides intuitive and practical tools you can apply daily to feel more balanced, energised, and connected to your body. ✨ Take the Dosha Quiz here to discover your Ayurvedic body type! For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ ----- Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.  

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined once again by Katie Beecher @katiebeecher_medical_intuitive, a licensed professional counselor and medical and emotional intuitive. With over 35 years of experience, Katie has a unique ability to create detailed physical, emotional, and spiritual reports and even symbolic paintings using just a person's name and age. In this powerful conversation, we dive into how fertility challenges are deeply tied to the body's messages, unresolved trauma, and even spiritual guidance. Katie shares insight into Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome as a hidden factor in infertility, the emotional layers of miscarriage and loss, and the importance of connecting with spirit babies. We also explore how symptoms are not something to fear—but invitations to tune in and heal. Whether you're on a fertility journey or simply seeking a deeper connection to your body and intuition, this episode is filled with wisdom and compassion. Key Takeaways: Symptoms are not your enemy they are messages from your body and spirit. Anxiety, trauma, and stress disconnect us from our bodies, blocking healing and fertility. Spirit babies often communicate with future parents and may arrive through various paths—including adoption or donor eggs. Conditions like Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome can go undiagnosed but play a significant role in reproductive health. Empowering your intuition and setting boundaries are crucial for emotional and spiritual readiness for parenthood. Healing is not about control—it's about partnership with your body, your spirit, and the wisdom within. Guest Bio: Katie Beecher is a licensed professional counselor and renowned medical and emotional intuitive with over 35 years of experience. Known for her unique ability to create detailed wellness reports and symbolic paintings using just a person's name and age, Katie has been featured in over 200 media outlets including Goop, Poosh, and Kora Organics. She is also the author of Heal from Within: An Intuitive Guide to Wellness, a practical guide that teaches readers how to access their own intuition, cultivate self-love, and heal holistically. Katie's work is deeply informed by her personal healing journey from bulimia, Lyme disease, and depression—an experience that began when she courageously sought help as a teenager and has since inspired her life's mission. Websites/Social Media Links: Katie's InstagramKatie's FacebookWatch her on YoutubeGet her book: Heal From Within: A Guide to Intuitive WellnessRead here blog: The Common, Frequently Overlooked Disorder That May Connect All of Your Mystery Symptoms—------------- For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com  To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility  The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/  Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.   Transcript: # TWF: Katie Beecher (audio) [00:00:00] Episode number 3 32 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. My guest today is Katie Beecher. Katie is a licensed professional counselor and medical and emotional intuitive. With over 35 years of experience, Katie is featured in over 200 media outlets including Goop, Courtney Kardashian's website and Miranda Kerr's Gora Organics blog and has taught a week long workshop. At the Omega Institute, she has a unique way of working with clients, creating a detailed, individualized, physical, emotional, and spiritual report and symbolic painting before ever seeing them, talking with them, or seeing a photograph using only their name and age. Katie's first book. Heal from within. An intuitive guide to wellness uses practical tools and techniques Katie uses in her own medical and spiritual intuitive readings. The book teaches you to be your own medical intuitive, using [00:01:00] Katie's revolutionary step-by-step process for connecting to intuition and spirit, finding self-love and empowerment as well as to heal physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Heal from within is filled with remarkable stories of healing from her years of experience, as well as her own healing from bulimia, Lyme disease and emotional illness at the age of 16, without telling anyone, including her parents, Katie contacted her pediatrician and began therapy for a severe eating disorder and suicidal depression. She has been healed for over 35 years. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility [00:02:00] journey. **Michelle Oravitz:** Welcome back to the podcast, Katie. I'm so happy to have you back. **Katie Beecher:** This is a really great topic and I work with it a lot, so it's nice to, uh, podcast. **Michelle Oravitz:** So good. So I remember our first podcast episode. We talked about how about your gift really, and how you also incorporate art, which I thought was so cool. **Katie Beecher:** Yes. **Michelle Oravitz:** and so now since then you've started to see a lot of people. With fertility, like specifically fertility people are coming to you like about loss miscarriage and also spirit babies, like future babies and babies who have, yeah. **Katie Beecher:** I mean, I've, I always worked with a little bit but yeah, lately, like the past six months or so, I've really been getting a lot of fertility people. And, and I really, really, my heart goes out to them. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, for sure. And I feel like it's kind of like you're being called, you're being summoned. **Katie Beecher:** Yes. **Michelle Oravitz:** it's like a need, it's like a need in that world to really [00:03:00] become a messenger in that space. I wanted to get your thoughts, like, why do you feel like we're living at this time right now? Like this time it seems to be more needed than ever. Like the, the fertility space, like there a lot more people are experiencing that. There's a lot more of that happening now, and I wanted to get, get your take on it. **Katie Beecher:** Yeah, I mean, I think some of it gets down to just lifestyle changes and people having children getting married later, having children later, you know, decide to do that. And that's kind of. Age isn't necessarily a fertility block as we know, but it definitely can complicate things, you know? So I think that's a piece of it. I don't know if there's more stress than in the past. It feels like it, **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah  **Katie Beecher:** for sure. So, and we all know that stress plays a big part in it with the cortisol and the, you know, effects on the immune system and, and all those kind of things. So I think that's also it. And [00:04:00] I feel like people have more of a need to communicate with spirit in terms of their own personal relationship with their intuition. Their body and a lot of people for various reasons are kind of out of body and,  **Michelle Oravitz:** Right. It's true.  **Katie Beecher:** it's really hard to know what your body needs for fertility or anything else if you are not in it or if you feel like it's your enemy or you can't listen to the signals it gives you in terms of self care, for example. You know, so.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, I agree. I also like noticed, I remember I read your book and it's, I feel like with you, it's what's cool. What I really like is that. You not only are connected to spirit, which I think that most people who don't really understand it think it's kind of like somewhere up in the clouds or it's not like real, or I not, it's hard to like kind of, look at because it's not something that could be looked at. It's something that's more experienced. But what I find that's interesting about you is that you [00:05:00] really pull it into the body **Katie Beecher:** Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. **Michelle Oravitz:** you kind of like the intelligence in your body. It's almost like the, the messages that your body's giving to you. And that could be considered Yeah. Like intuitive, but that's actually like something we all have. **Katie Beecher:** Yeah, no, it's true. I try to, you know, make it not woo woo because it's really not, and we all have medical intuition. We use it all the time. Like, you know, if you get a stomach ache, it's, you immediately start thinking. and problem solving. Like, was it something I just ate? Do I need to have crackers? Do I need to get some seltzer? Do I, you know, have to, aol, do I need to lay down? Do I need to go to the hospital? So whether it's you or your kids, right? Because we're, we do it for our family members also. so I think it's something that naturally happens. My abilities take it to the, you know, nth degree, which is different, but it doesn't mean that people don't have medical intuitive abilities who don't do what I do. **Michelle Oravitz:** 100%. I think so too. It's, [00:06:00] not I think it's something that we've all been given because we need to have it. We need to know what's going on with our body and we can have it too. It's not something, and I think that sometimes we also give the power away. I. To other people to dictate kind of what we should do with our own bodies, and we also overlook our own intuition on what our bodies are telling us because we don't trust that. I mean, it really kind of goes on and on. **Katie Beecher:** It, it really does. And I think people, if you have trauma or illness or something, the thought is that these, these feelings in your body, are scary or that there are enemies or we have to fix them and obsess about them. And a, I think a more practical way of looking at it is what is my body telling me? What is my intuition telling me? You know, if my chest is tight, that may be my intuition yelling at me that I need to do something different or whatever. Even like anxiety [00:07:00] is so big and I look at anxiety as number one. It's very natural. It's a survival mechanism, right? We've always had it. We've always needed it. And it's letting, it's letting you know that something isn't right. So it may be danger or it may be that you're letting people take advantage of you, or not setting boundaries, or that you're not doing self-care or you're doing something against yourself, or it just means something's wrong that we need to take a look at. And the more you push it down, the stronger it gets. So then it becomes this big thing in and of itself, you know? **Michelle Oravitz:** But it's actually just trying to guide you. It's kind of trying to get your attention and that's why I always say like symptoms, it's so funny 'cause we get really annoyed with symptoms. But symptoms are our best friends. They're the best things that we could have. It's such a, a, genius design of our bodies is to let us know what's going on and to guide us. It's when we fight with the symptoms, they grow bigger and bigger and then they become like really hard to manage. **Katie Beecher:** And then what happens [00:08:00] is the more we ignore, the worse they get and the more that they need to interfere with our help, our happiness, and our help, and, and it's not even necessarily our faults because. We have a culture of just, you know, grin and bear it, kind of get through it, you know, just don't even, you know, and, and there's something to be said for that as well, but like, you can't ignore what your body is telling you. And then also expect to be healthy and happy because you, you're either here or you're out here.  And if you're out here. It's impossible to be present. Most of us live in between, like I, I live out there too, so, but I be here, you know, in order to function and and help people too. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. And then so talk to me about some of the cases that you've seen of late. You know, 'cause you've been talking to more people. I know we were talking before [00:09:00] about a lot of loss, and I think that that's a really important topic because it's so confusing, it's heartbreaking. It's just really hard for people, especially because not a lot of attention goes on that type of loss. Like pregnancy loss. It's not given a ceremony. It's not unless the couple decides to do it. So I think that, and then the community, sometimes couples go through it alone, so I think that it's a very unique type of loss in that way. It could be really, really difficult because of that. **Katie Beecher:** like I said, I really feel for people and a lot of it is, things that some, if you haven't been through it, like a miscarriage or, or whatever, or a fertility journey. Right. If you haven't been through that, just like if you haven't been through anything, it can be hard to understand what a person's going through. But I was working with somebody recently and she been trying to get pregnant for. I guess like five years now. And she's in her forties. And she's gotten pregnant through [00:10:00] various means, but they were all chemical pregnancies, so they only lasted about a week or so. And then even with the egg retrieval all of her embryos have seemed to have some abnormality, so. There's nothing that she can do, you know, in terms of, of fixing that. And then the, the question is like, does that mean that every time I try to get pregnant, there's gonna be something wrong with the baby? And is there something wrong with me and is there something wrong with my body? And just like, and this person, I really feel for her 'cause she's doing it alone. She doesn't have a partner, you know, and so there's not even anybody to help. Kind of support you and pick up that slack, you know? And that, that loss just then turns, I think, to sheer terror of, ah, and then  **Michelle Oravitz:** right. Every single time you have to go through it, you're, you're not gonna be able to feel safe. **Katie Beecher:** and there's A-P-T-S-D [00:11:00] component to it of, do I get my hopes up? What if I get hurt again? What if I, and, and all of those feelings of grief and loss and everything come back every time you even think about doing it again. You know, **Michelle Oravitz:** Right. **Katie Beecher:** and I just, like you said, it's not, and I think things like your show and other things have helped people be able to talk about it more. You know, but it is a foreign concept to a lot of people. **Michelle Oravitz:** For sure. And so what do you see, do you see like a spiritual component to it? Is there some message or something that they need to like address that they feel um, at least to get through it, you know, to get them stronger? Mm-hmm. **Katie Beecher:** so it's, I I pick up a really mixed bag of things. It's not uncommon for me to pick up. Physical or emotional issues that need to be addressed before a healthy pregnancy can take place. And so, things [00:12:00] like Lyme, because Lyme can get passed on, you know, to your kids. And if you have that, there's a lot of reasons why you need to heal as much as possible, you know, before you can have healthy pregnancy. What I pick up on a lot is something called ER Danlos syndrome. Have you heard of that before? **Michelle Oravitz:** No. **Katie Beecher:** So Ler Danlos, the, one of the most prominent symptoms of it is hypermobility. So being ultra flexible, but even that can, can be different in every person. But it's a connective tissue disorder and it's collagen and elastin that are always inflamed in your body. So you have this ongoing inflammation, but EDS impacts virtually every area of the body. **Michelle Oravitz:** Wow. **Katie Beecher:** It's really, really crazy. I have it, my daughter have it has it also. So I feel like a Guinea pig, you know, having, and then I can help a lot more other people, which is. Is good. And then I end up helping a lot of families 'cause it's genetic. So people are like, oh, I didn't know I had it. That [00:13:00] sounds like my mom, but that sounds like my sister. Or, you know. But the thing about it is that because your organs can be lax because there's inflammation, because all sorts of things and it screws up your hormones. It a million things that can be a real, a hidden cause of infertility. **Michelle Oravitz:** Wow, that's crazy. 'cause I've never heard about. **Katie Beecher:** Yeah, it's not uncommon. It used to be considered a rare disease and there's 13 different types, so all except the most common type are pretty rare. But the most common type is not rare at all. I pick it up all the time and it's been getting more media attention, which is good. Because doctors are really bad at diagnosing it. 'cause there's all these symptoms and so when you go to a doctor, usually all insurance allows them to pay for, is that one symptom? Like, which is crazy because you need to look at the whole body  to  **Michelle Oravitz:** Wow, that's so crazy. And what could you do about it? **Katie Beecher:** So, you can't [00:14:00] cure it, but there's a lot you can do. And so a lot of it is like testing for histamine sensitivities, for example, histamines come into it. They do all sorts of different, you know, testing for autoimmune things and just that kind of thing is, is valuable. But what was the most helpful to me in my treatment was getting to work with physical therapists who were specialists in EDS. And I was able to see like which parts of my body were really stiff. 'cause you can be stiff, not just  flexible, right? It all, it moves around your body all the time. 'cause your tendon ligaments are going like this. And so what was tight? What was loose? What was weak? Was strong. Different sides of the body are different. It ex like it can show if you have a, a loose area, other areas get tight to overcompensate for it. So, I've been able to like do things like before I do my pole dancing and aerial arts and stuff like [00:15:00] that. There's certain exercises and things that I need to do in order to not injure myself again. And even things like, it makes you more susceptible to bone density issues, right? Because it does, it can't, you can't hold up your muscles and bones with loose ligaments. So there's a lot of things. And in terms of pregnancy, right? People with EDS are more prone to things like placenta previa and all sorts of different complications, even like miscarriages and stuff. Implantation issues, just all kinds of things. Endometriosis, so many things. But during pregnancy, as you probably know, our ligaments and our hips loosen up anyway, right. So if the doctor knows that you have EDS, there's things that they can do, exercises they can give you, things that they can do to, you know, watch for. And also like maybe if things are really loose, you might need a a cesarean, you know, before another person would, or [00:16:00] even like. Anesthesia, for example. People with EDS, sometimes anesthesia works, sometimes it doesn't work, sometimes it works too much. So it's, you know, those kind of things that you can kind of prepare for knowing what conditions people  **Michelle Oravitz:** Could it impact like an incompetent cervix? That's, uh, so that's another one. You'd get a cerclage to keep it closed. **Katie Beecher:** Exactly, exactly. Yeah. It affects the whole body, 'cause connected tissues everywhere,  including the brain.  **Michelle Oravitz:** crazy. **Katie Beecher:** It is, it's really, and it's, it's so gratifying to work with people with it who have been told they have everything else, like fibromyalgia. Don't even get me started on that diagnosis. But, you know, that's what comes back a lot because  they don't know right, what the root causes are. And even like, like pots you know, like I said, histamine sensitivities, like there's so many side. Side things that are basically created when we have inflammation and when  our organs aren't doing what they  **Michelle Oravitz:** It can impact your gut. I mean, it [00:17:00] impacts so much. **Katie Beecher:** huge. Yeah. And the earlier you get diagnosed, the better. And my daughter and I have this running joke. Oh, it's EDS, you know, but I wasn't diagnosed until my fifties and she got diagnosed when she was 25. so  **Michelle Oravitz:** so crazy. Wow. That's actually eyeopening. 'cause it's not something that I've heard. I, because I, I see patients all the time. They're always giving me their doctor's diagnosis. I would've remembered it 'cause it's a very unusual **Katie Beecher:** Right, and there's a spectrum, so it, there's hypermobility and then like everything else, it's a spectrum. So even if you don't have full blown EDS,  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah.  **Katie Beecher:** person, it, it can still affect you. **Michelle Oravitz:** Are there any functional medicine approaches that can help it inflammation?  **Katie Beecher:** like definitely, you know, supplements that help with inflammation  and, you know, natural stuff. There's a a  **Michelle Oravitz:** Or even collagen, taking collagen or like bone broth. I don't **Katie Beecher:** yes.  **Michelle Oravitz:** are the things that I think off, off **Katie Beecher:** [00:18:00] Yeah. It's kind of a mixed bag because part of it is that we don't process collagen. **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, I **Katie Beecher:** Right way. However,  I find taking collagen very helpful.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Okay, got It It could be also, like certain people might benefit, certain people might not. It's kind of like a, it's not a one size fits all, even if you have it. **Katie Beecher:** exactly. And like I use dma. Which is kind of a weird little thing, but I use it for hair growth, but it also is silica, so it helps your bones and, and you know, and then um, there's a supplement I like called Liga plex too, which also helps with adrenals 'cause it messes with your adrenals, messes with your nervous system, the whole whole thing. A lot of people with it are neuro neurodivergent links, eating disorders. It's, it's really, wow. really, because you don't have a. Sense of your body. So your your proprioception is off and your body image is off, and  **Michelle Oravitz:** That's interesting. It's so crazy to me [00:19:00] because um, you know, so many people go through these things and they think it's their fault. They don't realize that there is another explanation kind of lurking underneath that is causing them to feel the way they're feeling and they feel the shame and kind of guilt for getting to the place that they're getting to, but they just don't realize why. Mm-hmm. **Katie Beecher:** My daughter actually just from me being me, you know, and then the, she has the same and different symptoms, even though we have the same subtype of EDS, but she actually went to her doctor and. Told the doctor all about this stuff and the doctor's like, well, that's too rare. That doesn't, you know, it really even barely ever happens. And you know, the, just gave her medical gaslighting. And thankfully I have two stubborn adult children who, you know, she went to somebody else who had more of a background in it. She got officially diagnosed, she went back to that doctor, **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. Good for her because sometimes that's so frustrating. Yeah. Yeah. **Katie Beecher:** She was like, uh, this is what I have, and you told me I didn't. And like, you really need to know [00:20:00] more so you can help other people. And the  **Michelle Oravitz:** Right. Yeah, it's good. It's good. I like it when that happens. 'cause it's not, not to sort of, it's more to, to educate them like I to come back. 'cause patients educate me all the time. Like I think that as doctors, you need to let your patients educate you because that's how you learn, that's why it's called a practice. You have to connect and really listen to your patients if you really wanna become a good practitioner. In general. Yeah, **Katie Beecher:** Yeah. And I think the best practitioners have medical intuitive abilities. **Michelle Oravitz:** true. And I'll be honest, it's interesting because like, I definitely have always been sensitive. I do think that I'm intuitive. I don't like, uh, it's not something that I kind of go forward with, but it's true. Like people that work with me know that, but. I will never override another person's intuition. So if somebody tells me they don't feel right about a supplement, even if the textbook tells me that is the perfect supplement for them, I [00:21:00] will say, listen to your body. That's always, just listen to your body, you know best. And I think that, I think that that is just kind of like a do no harm. You have to really respect the person's inner intelligence that they only connect with. **Katie Beecher:** Yeah, and teach people how to trust it, like as accurate as my guides are, and it's really amazing. I tell people I don't want. You to trust my intuition over yours. Like I want you to consider what I'm saying, but it doesn't mean that like I wanna teach you how to develop your intuition. I wanna  teach you how to talk to your spirit  **Michelle Oravitz:** Well, that's your book. Your book talked a lot about that. It was like empowering your own in innate intuition. **Katie Beecher:** Exactly. And we do need other people. We do. You know, 'cause we have blinders and we have fears and all kinds of stuff that can get in the way in our own agendas and you know. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. **Katie Beecher:** But I think when you talk to people and they think about times when they're in, when they trusted their intuition, they can be like, like miraculous things [00:22:00] happened. **Michelle Oravitz:** It's true. It really is true, and sometimes it's interesting. Sometimes in order to trust your intuition, you're actually. Given a very difficult choice to make. You have to like do something that is hard to do or like go against people's opinions or go against what your initial expectation was, but then it becomes so worth it, it it, you start to realize there's a reason for that. **Katie Beecher:** Yeah, I totally agree. And it's, if I hadn't gone through some of all of the stuff that I've gone through, I wouldn't have learned how to, you know, develop and trust my intuition and my weird abilities. And it was really through that diversity and. I like to tell people that other people's pain or your own pain might be the greatest gift you've received. It doesn't make it any easier, but you know, if you can respond to it and figure out what you need to do to take care of yourself and maybe learn to trust spirit instead of feeling [00:23:00] alone all the time, like. There's so many benefits to it that yeah, even though it's not an exact science and you don't always  trust it, you  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, everything's so unique. I think that that's like on earth, like every person is so unique. Every path is so unique. Even if you have like this, a similar type of path, it's still unique. You were just talking about uh, EDS and how it's unique with every person that has it. And the same thing with fertility. So like people going through that, you know, going through those challenges, it's like any kind of challenge in life really. You know, where something is there. To guide you. I've seen it. I've talked to enough people. I've been doing this in, you know, the podcast since 2018. I've talked to enough people to hear stories and how their end, like the end point. They always look back and they're like, I wouldn't have changed it. But when they're in it, they're like, I don't want this. But then afterwards they're like, oh, wow. Now I see. It's like hindsight shows [00:24:00] you the reason. **Katie Beecher:** A lot of the time too, I find that people have, who are having fertility issues, they have really difficult people in their lives or they hate their job or something like that. So it requires setting boundaries. Especially if you know, you and your partner don't agree on some really important parenting issues or values or what I see a lot too is people who are concerned about their parents or in-laws. And how they're going to be with their children. And so it can be an amazing opportunity to stand up to them and set limits with stuff. Maybe you would've taken from your own parents or an in-law for yourself and you're like, no way you're treating my kids like that. Or saying that around my kids are doing, you know? I got a lot ballsier for sure when I had kids and I. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, yeah, yeah. You, and then that's really, I think that that's one of the things, [00:25:00] like, I feel like fertility challenges set you up for parenting because you, you start, you start with advocating for yourself, and eventually you're gonna have to make very difficult decisions with kids and advocating for them, even in the medical com, you know, system. I, I've had it for many things. Doing things that, uh, is a little outside the box. I didn't want fluoride, my kids' teeth, and people look at you sideways, but now it's coming out that it's not good. And not being political, like I'm just saying in general, like in general, it's coming out that fluoride is not good for you and it lowers the IQ of kids. It, it is what it is. Yeah. **Katie Beecher:** I know it's, and that's, I know so many challenging things because yes, it benefits teeth, but oh my God, all the other stuff. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. And there are other things that can benefit the teeth. Uh, vitamin D. Yeah. So many things. So, so it's kind of like that, like it doesn't [00:26:00] end, you know, these challenges never end. And I think that what you're saying is so important, like really setting boundaries and standing up for what you know to be right. It's really listening to your heart, your integrity, and kind of like staying in your integrity. I feel like that might be difficult at first, but it actually makes your life easier. **Katie Beecher:** Does. Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** It's kind of like the the trick thing that people don't realize. **Katie Beecher:** No, I, I tell people it's like training a dog, like you're setting boundaries with your dog so that they don't, you know, pee in the house or  they,  you  **Michelle Oravitz:** be happy later. **Katie Beecher:** so, and that's, that's how you parent too, and that's how you deal with, with other people in your life.  You know, it's not a negative. Maybe it'll make people angry at you. You know, maybe temporarily, maybe not, but, oh, well, Yeah. Listen, if people are angry at you, when you're not doing something to intentionally hurt them and you're just kind of speaking your truth, then that's a they problem. Oh, it. **Michelle Oravitz:** You know? It's like, you know, you're [00:27:00] not like trying to hurt anybody. You're just speaking your truth. Then that's, you know, you can't, you can't really control that. And I, and I say you have to stand, definitely stand your ground. I agree with you. I mean, that's definitely a big thing. Do you through spirit babies, like get messages for things that they want their future parents to know? **Katie Beecher:** It works a lot of different ways, so, encourage,  **Michelle Oravitz:** Right. I think that's the theme for today. It's not a one size fits all. **Katie Beecher:** No. I get messages from children who who were not able to come through as healthy pregnancies. That's a good way to put it. Even people, and it's awful. If, if you've had an abortion and now you're trying to get pregnant, there's like can be so much guilt  **Michelle Oravitz:** It could be in mind off. I know. I, I've talked to so many people **Katie Beecher:** Right. So I talk to them. I also am able to talk to babies and children who are coming to them. And it's [00:28:00] fascinating because it's, it's often biological children, but sometimes it's also children who are going to come to people through adoption or. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yes. I just got the chills 'cause it's true. Like it that it's still your child. Yeah. **Katie Beecher:** Like, I see it all the time where there's a mom or a parent, you know, parental group, whatever you wanna call them. And there's this child on the outside and they're not necessarily a baby. And that's often my signal. My guides are like, this person needs to help whoever this is. That's they're gonna connect with whoever this is. And it may come to them, they're not expecting, you know, but, and as we know there so many kids who. In need of good parenting and, and foster care system's awful. And, you know, and all those things. and it is very delicate to bring up,  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, it's true. It's true because, uh, people have their own plans.[00:29:00]  **Katie Beecher:** know, and, and of course they want biological children and of course, you know, so I, I totally get that. But I am honest with people when I do my readings and I'm just like, Hey. This is coming through,  **Michelle Oravitz:** I think you have to be 'cause you're a messenger and you can't change the message if that's what it is. And I had Dr. Lisa Miller on who had gone through, actually it was very interesting. She had gone through her fertility, like a fertility challenges and. Went through so much to try to conceive and she kept getting this inner voice come to her and say, if you if you can conceive, would you adopt? Or something like that. Like, I don't remember the exact sentence, and would you still adopt? And she was like, no, I, I want my own baby. And then it kept coming to her. And then at one point she just happened to be, I think I was staying at a hotel or somewhere where. [00:30:00] There was a program on kids that were orphans, and one of them was inhaling some kind of chemical and said, the reason that he does that is because he doesn't feel love. Like he doesn't have anybody that loves him. And of course, you know, anybody has a heart and hears that their heart breaks. But for her it was like this next level of, uh, wow. Like it really shook her. And at that point it was, it. It was her and her husband, and there was a reason why the TV couldn't work and it had to be on that, and they ended up adopting in that. And the night before she went to adopt, I think it was outside of the country, she heard the voice again, the question come back to her, would you adopt if you can conceive naturally, would you adopt? She said, absolutely. And that month she also conceived. you know what I mean? And it was like those children were supposed to meet and be SI **Katie Beecher:** Yeah, exactly.  **Michelle Oravitz:** was just [00:31:00] the whole thing. So crazy. **Katie Beecher:** The person um, that I recently worked with, I saw a young boy and an older girl and I said, one of them is not going to come from you. And and I'm like. There's gonna be some child you hear about, or some show is gonna come on, or some program or something you come across on the internet, and it's going to open your eyes or open your heart to the possibility of adoption. It doesn't mean that you're not gonna be able to have your own. Biological person too. But yeah, I literally saw them together holding hands and it's, I get a lot of images through my, you know, with my guides. But I totally felt like, you know, she's like, I really don't even wanna go there. I said, I understand and I'm not telling you what to do. All I'm saying is look into the possibilities even doing a donor egg, because that might take that fear. of having, you know, a child [00:32:00] that is really disabled or something like that, you know, because, and I'm not, that's not a judgment call. She told me the first time she got pregnant, she had this overwhelming fear that there was something wrong with baby. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, it was like that intuition. **Katie Beecher:** Exactly. And then it didn't, it wasn't viable, you know, so it turned out she was right. I  said, see, so your intuition's working,  **Michelle Oravitz:** Right. Although I just took this for people listening, just 'cause you have a thought like that doesn't mean it's gonna happen. There's a difference between fears and sometimes fears can trick us, but then there's also intuition and that is real. Like it's a, it's a, it feels different. **Katie Beecher:** It's true. And, and especially, I mean, any new mom or anyone, time you, you know, you get pregnant of course. You're like, I would want this to go, well, this  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, you're gonna, you, and sometimes your mind goes into all kinds of places. What if it happens like this? Or that doesn't necessarily mean it's your intuition. Yeah.  **Katie Beecher:** Yeah.  There's a difference between fear and I. Yes.  **Michelle Oravitz:** It's happened to me before. Yeah. No, no. 'cause I know, like my, I, I know myself. Like if I, you know, I'd be like, oh [00:33:00] my God, well if I feel that, does that mean that it's real? And, it feels like that. Yeah, for sure. Like when you're actually going through it. But sometimes you do have like this real strong nudge, like knowing which is different. But again, it's harder for people who don't like, do what you do to really distinguish the, Difference. How can people, actually, that's a good question. How can people figure out what's my intuition and what's my fear? be a perfect person to ask. **Katie Beecher:** sot book I. And it talks about all of this stuff, but I really, I'm glad that you mentioned it because people will say to me like, how do I know it's my intuition or not just a voice in my head or something I made up right? Or fear or whatever. So what I tell people is, whatever you get when you're communicating with intuition, just allow it to be there. Write it down. It's a written technique thing. Write it down. Just allow it to be there without judgment, without fear. And then if something does come through that's scary. Then address [00:34:00] that and just be like, okay, hello voice. You know, what is this thing that I'm really afraid of? Why am I afraid of it? What can I do about it? Is this an intuitive feeling or is it just a fear? You know? So that way you are not pushing it down,  **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm.  **Katie Beecher:** addressing it. **Michelle Oravitz:** Right. Right. That's a good point. 'cause sometimes we'll push it away. **Katie Beecher:** Right. And this way you can problem solve. Like I'm, I'm really afraid you know that there's gonna be something wrong with baby. And then, so that may prompt you to be like, okay, ask your doctor if there are tests that you can do to, you know, so  **Michelle Oravitz:** you  can be proactive. Yeah. **Katie Beecher:** You know, like in my own case, I felt like something was off. We had an amniocentesis and it,  gonna get into this whole thing, but it showed like a potential, really like huge problem, like. Like still a born person. Yeah. It was really, really scary. And the doctor's, like, most of the time we don't even find this this thing with the cerebral spinal fluid, unless there's an autopsy and it [00:35:00] like, doesn't affect most people, but, but it could be worst case scenario. So they're like, you can do nothing or whatever. And I'm like, no, I want the amnio. I wanna know, do the genetic testing. And, and it was torture because at that time it took a month. Sales. But I was glad I did 'cause they're like, everything is normal.  So, yeah. And you could carry that fear or you could be like, I'm gonna do something about it and find  **Michelle Oravitz:** Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And that's where you're being guided to resolve and that's, that's what I like about how you approach this is because you approach it from a very realistic way where you're actually using action in order to, but also intuition and you're bridging the two. **Katie Beecher:** Yeah, I like to give people actionable steps. You know, and okay, yeah, all these things are happening and you can't control them and it feels awful and you don't feel like you have any power, and, but what kind of things can you do? Even if it's just not just, even if it's, you know what? I can't control what's [00:36:00] going on right now, but I need to go take a walk, or I need to go work out, or I need to go do something creative to calm down my nervous system. Let out the stress that is an actionable response. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yes, that is true. And your nervous system. I am obsessed with the nervous system. I talk about it a lot because it's an information, it's an information system. So basically it's an antenna like, and if it's not if it's chaotic, you're not gonna get the message. It's static. **Katie Beecher:** Exactly. **Michelle Oravitz:** You need to regulate it. And that's part of the whole reason why I think stress is, you know, is such a factor. We're constantly fight or flight. We need to even it out and kind of take the other, you know, the other balance of rest and digest and kind. I think that when we do that, we're able to get the messages more clearly. **Katie Beecher:** Oh my God. Yeah, absolutely. Even my, you know, my own self if I'm feeling out of it or whatever, I'm just like, you can't go into your reading list this way. You know, you can't create your report and painting and all that. So you need to go do something to [00:37:00] chill. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. **Katie Beecher:** Be in a better space. So yeah, it's not just regular people, it's also people who do this for. **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, it's every person. Every person with a nervous system. And it also puts you in a more creative, like when your nervous system is balanced, you're also more creative. You're able to be more creative. And what is fertility? It's your physical body's creativity. **Katie Beecher:** It, it is so true. And our bodies are just so tuned in to what we are thinking and feeling. A, a quickie uterus story this actually happened to me, so going through a bunch of really intense stress with husband's job and stuff like that, so life was really freaking chaotic and I had been painting every day and I'm like. I just lost the desire and I don't paint like black daggy things anyway, so I just was like too depressed to do anything. And ended up having really bad abdominal pain for a full year. Really bad ing abdominal pain like in, in bed. [00:38:00] Never knew when it would start and like crazy. 8 million tests of course, and no one could really find anything. They did take my appendix out and found a cancerous tumor on my appendix. **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh wow. **Katie Beecher:** A rare cancerous tumor. So that obviously needed to come out. Um, So that was a good thing from all this crazy. But ultimately the doctor was finally like, okay, your uterus feels weird. And so I'm like, I, I've had my children. Well, I'm not doing this pain anymore. Please just, you know, let's end this. So, woke up from the surgery and she said, we had to take one of your ovaries too. I'm like, okay. And she said, I've never seen this before in anyone. I'm thinking, yeah, it's me. My, my fallopian tube had wrapped around my uterus, **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh my God. How can they not see that in the ultrasound? **Katie Beecher:** well, it was adhered to it, and I guess the angles, it  just  didn't, didn't show up. But I was like, I know exactly what that is. That is me. I cut off my creativity. I cut off that [00:39:00] connection to myself, so my body responded by literally choking off. Center, which is  **Michelle Oravitz:** Wow. Isn't that crazy? That is so crazy. But I see stuff like that a lot. Like, you know, a thyroid or like throat. Conditions. And the people also at the same time have a difficulty expressing themselves to the most pivotal person in their life. And you know, and sometimes just releasing that and all of a sudden tears and things come out, our bodies, you know, it's like that book. Uh, your body keeps the score. true. **Katie Beecher:** It, it's, and you know, Carl Young and other people like that have been talking about it for, I don't know, long, long, long time. And now just we're, we're just catching up now. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, and it also gives you symbols. It'll give you like a reflection of metaphors. **Katie Beecher:** Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It's, it's really fascinating and like, I like to teach people how to talk to your uterus, talk to your eggs. You know, talk to your [00:40:00] hormones, whatever's going on, and treat them as your friends. Not something that you hate or that is broken, or that you have to obsess about or even fix. Of course, the goal is to heal. But, and I did this with healing from my eating disorder, was, what do you need from me? Why is this happening?  **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm.  **Katie Beecher:** are there things I need to change in my life? What are you trying to tell me? How can I help you heal? So, treat it like a team member **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, I **Katie Beecher:** that is in it with you that's helping you make changes rather than feeling like it's foreign  or you're out of your body. You hate your body. It feels  like  it's.  **Michelle Oravitz:** thing. It's that, that kind of myth of the separation. **Katie Beecher:** Exactly. Exactly. So that takes so much of the anxiety out of it also. 'cause you're like, okay, I do have [00:41:00] some control over this. It's not just this, my body that's doing all these things that I don't want it to do and can't understand. Like  **Michelle Oravitz:** Right. It's, it becomes more whole, like you feel more wholeness. With that, it becomes more complete. There's more closure too because you're allowing whatever it needs to be expressed to express itself. I remember seeing Dolores Cannon, I'll see sometimes like reels or different things and she was talking about how your cells in your body, like look at you kind of like your executive function as a God and like whatever you say, it's like, oh, that must be true. And that's really how your subconscious mind works and that's why hypnotherapy works because it's kinda those suggestions. Ultimately come from the top. Your conscious mind can make those choices and then repeat it, repeat it, repeat it until it gets into the subconscious mind. Your body and your cells are part of that subconscious mind. **Katie Beecher:** It's true. And even just I'll be, you know, freaked [00:42:00] out about something, whatever, before I go to poll and, I'll have a great class burn off all this energy and I'll come back and be like, what was I even thinking about? Or a totally different perspective what was bothering me before. So, so much is our mindset. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, it, it really is everything. 'cause it's like how we experience our world and you could take like 10 different people with the same exact life and they'll experience it differently. **Katie Beecher:** Yeah, it's, it's so true.  Um,  **Michelle Oravitz:** have choice. **Katie Beecher:** we do, so I'd like to encourage people who are dealing with fertility difficulties to not see their body as the enemy. To be open to all sorts of possibilities. When we release some of that anxiety and stress, we're more creative, like you said. So maybe you, you think of a, a problem solving strategy that no one's brought up before, you know, or that you haven't, [00:43:00] or maybe your body will be like. Oh wait. I thought it was this, this, and this, but maybe I need to have my hormones checked, or maybe the testing wasn't accurate or maybe like it just frees you up  to  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah.  **Katie Beecher:** more answers. **Michelle Oravitz:** I see it a lot of times with my patients. So what you're saying is actually very accurate, like. I think that once people, and I see it also once they do acupuncture or like dirt, certain practices, they'll start to uncover things and they'll get ideas and they're like, oh, that's interesting. Somebody said some, something about that. Or they'll listen to a podcast and hear like the guests and they're like, oh my God, I think that that's my route. And it just kind of, they start to align and then find answers. So  **Katie Beecher:** I mean, being a control freak, which I'm guilty of you **Michelle Oravitz:** All of  us.  **Katie Beecher:** freakiness. Right. And anxiety just, it interferes more than we realize, and it's almost like people are addicted to anxiety, **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, 100%. Joe [00:44:00] Depen always talks about that, and it's true, like you could, you could be addicted to stress and like the adrenals and the, and you could get addicted to the hormones that anxiety and stress. Give you, you just are so used to it that that feels normal. And that's why, you know, abusive relationships you'll tend to gravitate 'cause that feels normal. **Katie Beecher:** And also if you're stressed out and your life is chaotic, it's impossible to think about your own needs and your own goals  **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm.  **Katie Beecher:** your own issues. So it's a way of avoidance, like every addiction is, you know, it's a way of avoiding stuff that you need to take care of or that's painful or whatever. So it's really sad that that people sort of. Choose that route, when they do have choices, it's not, not making people out to be, you know, that they're, it's their fault or anything. But we do have a lot of choice in, in what we do and how we interact with people. And just setting boundaries or not is a great [00:45:00] example, you know. **Michelle Oravitz:** I agree. I mean, I think that finding, figuring that out and kind of realizing that we actually have so much more power over our lives. I think that that's like that first step of empowerment. You're like, oh, wow. So I think that absolutely, it's true. We do have choice. Yeah. **Katie Beecher:** Right. And even like now, it's a bit of a crazy time. You know, and, and I'm sure a lot of people are feeling like. I can't change a society or, or a government, no matter what side you're on, whatever, you know, but there's too much there and I have no power. And it's, even fertility is just such a huge issue, right? But if you start being like, what can I do to take care of myself? What can I do to control my issues or when I feel like I'm spiraling? And then. Maybe I have more power than I think in terms of like getting together with like-minded people or fighting for your issues or you know, [00:46:00] something. So I just, that powerlessness is just such an awful feeling. **Michelle Oravitz:** it is, and it it all has a place too, in some weird way to teach us or to bring us back to ourselves. I always kind of have the belief that all roads lead to the light. ' cause eventually, even if it's like a really tough time, it'll eventually lead you to some kind of light. **Katie Beecher:** That's very true. And also on the subject of control, I like to tell people it's not all or nothing. So it's not like you're in control mode, all obsessed. You know your agenda. And the only alternative is to totally step back and give all that up. The way that I like to describe it is spirit intuition. It's there as a helper and letting it, like I recognize myself if I'm going too hard on an agenda or forcing something, whatever, and I can just be like, okay, this isn't working. So step back, allow intuition to come into your life [00:47:00] as a protective guiding force, and it tells me when I need to take action and what I need to  do. It gives me ideas. It helps me problem solve, so I'm not giving up any control. I'm gaining more by letting Spirit into my life. **Michelle Oravitz:** I love that. I think that's so important and I, I'm very spirit forward. It's like my, I, I can't do anything without my, I call them like my invisible assistants, and I'll tell you like when you lean on them or him, I, you know, whatever it is that you feel connected to. I see them as his team, you know, but, but yeah, I, whenever you lean on that intelligence, it always shows up. Like it almost always shows up like in incredibly miraculous ways. And I see it with my patients. I see it with my clients. Like that's the crazy thing is like the, the stories that I hear all the time. So it's real, like it's legit. And, uh, I think [00:48:00] it's so cool. So. For people listening now and they're like, okay, I wanna work with Katie. Like how, what kind of offerings do you have **Katie Beecher:** Sure. So I basically do two types of readings. One is what I call a full reading. And it comes with a four page report and an intuitive soul painting  and.  **Michelle Oravitz:** that. I think **Katie Beecher:** I know just with the name and age, I prepare the full report and the painting. I send it to them. We meet for an hour, we discuss everything I've sent and then a million things, more people can ask whatever they want and more stuff comes up. And then I also have an offering for just an hour without the report and painting. So it all depends on kind of what people want and what they can afford, and, you know, stuff like that. They're both effective. And I do sometimes offer a 30 minute too, although it's not on my schedule,  but it's an option. So yeah, those are basically the two. And then if people even like, they have questions about what we [00:49:00] talked about, I encourage them to email me after. So it's not just like you have a question, you have to make an appointment after I. **Michelle Oravitz:** That's **Katie Beecher:** Yeah, so because we talk about so much everything, emotional, physical, spiritual, that's impacting you in a positive or negative way, we talk about it. So it's a lot. But yeah, it's a pretty amazing process. I also teach people how to connect to their intuition and their bodies during the visit if that's something they wanna do.  So,  **Michelle Oravitz:** And how can people find you? **Katie Beecher:** So the easiest way is my website, katie beecher.com. but  **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm.  **Katie Beecher:** Instagram and Facebook and, and all of the  **Michelle Oravitz:** I follow your Instagram. I love her Instagram. It's so cool. And I love all the, all the things that you do. Like, uh, all the, what was it? The poll work. I think that's so cool. That's hard. That's not easy. That it, it's not as easy as it looks. I could tell you that. You, you have to use a lot of core. **Katie Beecher:** You use your whole body. It's really crazy. And when you have EDS, movement is [00:50:00] one of the most important things you can do. What I do is a bit extreme and I've had injuries because I've dislocated things, but still the best thing I've ever done for myself. And I really encourage movement for stress relief and  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. Well, good for you. It's amazing. So thank you so much, Katie. This is, uh, it's always a pleasure talking to you. I really enjoy it, you know, it's really fun and I think it's important too. It's important. I really love talking about connecting to that, like the spirit or energy, you know, I think it's so important. I think it's a lost art. In a way, because we've gotten so just into science now we're coming back. Now we're bridging it, which I like. **Katie Beecher:** Yeah. No, I agree. I. **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. **Katie Beecher:** Because you're letting your guard down in a way,  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yep.  **Katie Beecher:** you know? But  **Michelle Oravitz:** But that's where the power is. That's the portal. All right. Thank you [00:51:00] [00:52:00]   

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by fertility expert, acupuncturist, and conscious work practitioner, Lorne Brown @lorne_brown_official. Originally a CPA, Lorne's personal health journey led him to discover the transformative power of Chinese medicine, ultimately changing his career path. Now, as a leader in integrative fertility care and the host of The Conscious Fertility Podcast, Lorne bridges the gap between science and spirituality to help individuals optimize their fertility and overall well-being. In this episode, Lorne shares how conscious work plays a powerful role in fertility, explaining how subconscious beliefs and emotional resistance can impact reproductive health. He discusses the mind-body connection, the importance of inner healing, and how shifting from stress to flow can create profound changes. Whether you're on a fertility journey or simply looking to align with your highest self, this conversation is packed with insights on conscious transformation, holistic healing, and the power of perception.   Key Takeaways: Lorne's personal journey from accountant to acupuncturist and fertility expert. How Chinese medicine and holistic healing transformed his health and career. The mind-body connection and how stress impacts fertility. How subconscious beliefs shape our reality and can either block or support conception. The power of inner work and emotional healing in reproductive health. How shifting from resistance to receptivity can improve fertility outcomes. The role of consciousness in creating meaningful change in health and life. Insights from The Conscious Fertility Podcast and how Lorne helps patients find balance through a holistic and energetic approach. Guest Bio: Dr. Lorne Brown @lorne_brown_official is a leader in integrative fertility care, blending Chinese medicine, mind-body healing, and cutting-edge therapies. A former Chartered Professional Accountant (CPA), his personal health journey led him to acupuncture, herbal medicine, and holistic fertility support. As the founder of Acubalance Wellness Centre, he introduced low-level laser therapy (LLLT) for fertility and pioneered IVF acupuncture in Vancouver. He also created Healthy Seminars, an online education platform, and hosts The Conscious Fertility Podcast, where he explores the intersection of science, consciousness, and reproductive health. Websites/Social Media Links: Learn more about Lorne Brown, visit his website hereFollow Lorne Brown on InstagramListen to Conscious Fertility Podcast For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   -------- Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care. ----- Transcript: [00:00:00]  Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility [00:01:00] Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey. **Michelle Oravitz:** Welcome to the podcast, Lauren. **Lorne Brown:** Hey, Michelle, glad to be together with you over whatever we call this technology. I think yours is the Riverside. Yeah, I had a good time interviewing you for my Conscious Fertility podcast, so I'm looking forward to having more conversations with you because that was a lot of fun for me. **Michelle Oravitz:** It was a lot of fun for me too. And I actually it was really, really nice. And to see that we have very similar views just on reality and health and fertility, **Lorne Brown:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** it was a lot of fun. And so last week actually for everybody's listening, that was the first time we actually officially met via zoom. **Lorne Brown:** Yeah. But we know each other. We're part of the, the ABORM, right? The Acupuncture TCM Reproductive Board of Medicine but yeah, [00:02:00] like the first time you and I had real conversation rather than chat conversation. **Michelle Oravitz:** Which is awesome. I **Lorne Brown:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** it. And I think that we're so aligned in so many ways. I think that we both love the whole bridging of science and spirituality. We're kind of nerds in that department. **Lorne Brown:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** for people listening, I would love if you can introduce yourself. I know we also have, we started out with very different backgrounds. And went into acupuncture, you have like kind of a similar cause you started in accounting, right? **Lorne Brown:** Yeah, so, I am a CPA, so a Certified Professional Accountant back in the day they were called Chartered Accountants in Canada and because of health issues and having such a a response to Chinese medicine in particular eventually I, I was the, one of the controllers and tax guys at this time with ocean spray growers here in B. C. and I left that position so I could go back to school and study Chinese medicine as my second career. So that's kind of a little bit about my background. And then eventually **Michelle Oravitz:** [00:03:00] Like what made you think about doing Chinese medicine? **Lorne Brown:** I was ill. I had um, you know, back in the day, this is in the eighties and early nineties. So this Chinese medicine wasn't as available. This was before websites, right? Where you could really see what other people were doing and learning. And so I had severe gut issues, you know, diagnosis IBS, chronic fatigue, candida and you know, I got scoped through all each end and eventually and I tried different Western approaches and eventually it was the herb, Chinese herbal medicine actually that dramatically changed it so much. So, I mean, I have some memories. I did a bachelor of science first in math. That was my first thing. Then I went and did accounting in McGill. And and then I went and became a CPA, back then CA. They changed the letters for the designation. And I remember when I was at McGill I was already seeing alternative medicine doctors, in particular Chinese medicine. And I remember [00:04:00] s for the first time, how much clarity, because I had, I didn't realize how much brain fog I had. And so the clarity I had, I was in the classroom, I just realized how easy things were going in, and I was just remembering things, and I just felt like things were almost in slow motion in a good way, like a professional athlete when they can see the court. And physically, I just felt I had so much endurance, so much energy. I was just I felt great. And you know, when you've been feeling poorly for so long, That I thought that was normal. And then I got, you know, the illness was so bad while I was early days in my accounting studies at McGill. it interfered with my, my studies. It interfered my life. I almost couldn't get outta bed sometimes with the fatigue and the brain fog. And so I had an I had an aunt who was into this stuff. , I was, wasn't right. Remember, it came from Bachelor's Science Math in Duke County. I was, I think I was always open-minded. Look what I'm doing, but it wasn't kind of on my radar. And she's the one that suggested I see her Chinese herbalist. And you know, I was desperate. I was living in Montreal, Canada. She was living in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. So [00:05:00] I, I got on a plane and flew to see her person because I wouldn't know who to go see right back then. And you know, through dietary changes and herbal medicine. It, it transformed my life and funny story because, you know, I do acupuncture like you do. I always had a fear of needles, right? I never was a big fan of needles. So the first time I was getting acupuncture, the acupuncturist who treated me, I have everybody lying down, but he had me sitting up on the table. Right on the treatment table. I was sitting and he's putting these needles in me and he's like, are you okay? I guess he could see I was going a little green and I'm trying to be, you know, tough guy. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm fine. Next thing I know flop, I passed out on the table. **Michelle Oravitz:** do. **Lorne Brown:** So. Yeah. So now I receive it. I love it. Now I give it. But I did. It's a mind over matter, right? I did have that fear of needles, which is why I started with the herbal medicine. Most people like, Oh, I'll do acupuncture, but they maybe have an aversion to the herbs or the taste of the herbs. I was the other way [00:06:00] around. I got introduced to Chinese medicine through the herbal medicine. And then I was like, Oh, I'll try the acupuncture too. and, you know, I stuck with it, obviously. And, and eventually went back to school and now I can I receive it and I can give it and I have so much compassion for those who have a fear of needles, but usually if they come in and try it, they realize it doesn't feel like needles that you're getting. And now with technology, I have low level laser systems as well. So I can do laser acupuncture for those people that just cannot. Experience acupuncture because it's so stressful for them. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, for sure. So that's that's one of the things or sometimes starting them out with baby needles because the baby needles are really, really, really super thin. You can barely feel it. **Lorne Brown:** Yeah, I mean, I, I mean, I just give them the acupuncture for the first time and, and they're nervous. But, you know, they let me put in one needle, then another, then a third. And that's all I'll do for the first visit for people who have a big phobia. But like you and I know, and those that have received it, it's not like getting a [00:07:00] needle at the doctor when you get a shot or blood drawn. And so you really, you know, once they're in, it takes like a minute to put them in. Then you go and tell a beautiful rest, la la land for 30 to 45 minutes on the table. So all worth it for most. **Michelle Oravitz:** totally worth it. For sure. So talk about why you got into fertility specifically. **Lorne Brown:** Yeah, and I'll keep it short, but it was, it was never my intention. My intention was to treat gut issues, digestive issues, because that's what brought me to the medicine. So I thought I'd be, and that's what I set out to do, IBS, irritable bowel syndrome, Crohn's, colitis, severe bloating, constipation, diarrhea, that kind of stuff is what I thought I would be seeing. and I did see a lot of that, and in our medicine, when we treat, we do a very Detailed history and we treat holistically so we can't just focus on the gut health just like for fertility We don't just focus on the women's ovaries, right? We focus holistically and so most people that come to health professionals back then And [00:08:00] I started in 2000 and now still are female And so I'd always do a menstrual history and the the menstrual history is such a great guide for health, right? We can get so much information. That's why I prefer treating women over men. I treat both women who are menstruating. Help me diagnose them from a Chinese medicine perspective because I get so much information from their cycle history. And so as I was treating their bloating in their IBS, or they're alternating between, you know, constipation and diarrhea, or even colitis and Crohn's symptoms. They noticed their PMS went away, they noticed their menstrual pain went away, their irregular bleeding, the spotting, all those things changed. So I became popular. with women's health in general. So I was just doing women's health. So I was seeing people with perimenopause and menopausal symptoms and with painful periods. That was what I was seeing. And back then, again, the web wasn't a popular thing. I was advertising a magazine with a focus in women's health. And this woman who found me was going through an IVF and she was [00:09:00] going to see one of our colleagues, Randine Lewis, in Houston. So I'm in Vancouver and she flew to Houston to see Randine because this was before Zoom. And she, Randine told her she needs regular acupuncture at least once a week so she's going to enter herbal medicine. So she has to find somebody local because it wasn't reasonable or cost effective for her to fly weekly to Houston from Vancouver, right? Nobody was focusing on fertility, but she found me women's health. So she came to my clinic and told me her story and asked if I'd be willing to follow Randine's acupuncture prescriptions and her herbal suggestions and do that for her in Vancouver. And I kind of said cheek cheekily, but in a funny way, in a cute way, as a non aggressive way. So basically you want me to be like a monkey. And put the points where Randine tells you, tells me, and prescribe the herbs where Randine how Randine tells me. She goes, yeah. And I'm like, I'm in. That sounds great. I get to learn from somebody. Because what our audience doesn't know, [00:10:00] Randine was already focusing with fertility. And she had already had this draft book, which came out shortly after, called The Infertility Cure. First of many of her books. So, I thought it was a great opportunity to be able to learn from somebody with more experience and, and not have responsibility to the outcome. And so, and then women who are going through IVF and struggling with fertility, they talk and By 2004, I only would take reproductive health issues. That was all I would take because I was too busy, and I started hiring associates and training them because I couldn't handle the load myself. Now, here we are recording this in 2025 I have multiple associates in our clinic. And that do focus on fertility and myself personally, I still see a lot of reproductive health. But I'm so into the conscious work now. Cause I have low level laser therapy that we use for fertility, but I use that for so many other things. Brain health pain, pain injury. And I do a lot with pure menopausal symptoms. So, I would say, and half my practice, when I look at my [00:11:00] schedule is conscious work. Right? Is that mind body work? Half my practice is that. They still get acupuncture and low level laser therapy as part of the treatment but they're coming in with, I'm wanting belief change work. and I do see a lot of reproductive health, but I see everything now. So it's, it's kind of gone full circle. Because of the conscious work, because conscious work is my passion. And so whoever comes in the door that's looking for change, they may want a relationship change or want a relationship, job changes, finances. They want a baby, they want a healing. Basically, they want to be happy and they realize they can't get it from the outside. So they're looking for help on the inside to have that transformation. And that's why we use it for fertility because it's such a powerful tool when you can heal the mind, the body follows really well. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. No doubt. So talk about the conscious work, specifically. What does it entail? Mm-hmm **Lorne Brown:** Yeah, well, I'm trained also as a clinical hypnotherapist, and I've done a lot of what they call energy psychology modalities. So I'm trained in [00:12:00] Psyche, emotional freedom technique, Bankstein healing method, you know, energy type medicine. But from the clinical hypnotherapy perspective and what I would call conscious work, it's inner work. It's waking up to your true nature. It's waking up to what some people would call higher self, what they would call consciousness witness consciousness. You'd have to be open and appreciate that there's more to this world than meets the eyes. And so we have a Newtonian science world, what's considered a materialistic world, and those are things that we can kind of measure. And then there's the science, the new science called quantum physics. Which understands there's so much more to this reality than what we see and when you have these shifts inside it has your your perception to the world You see it differently and you can think of it as if you live in a building Let's say your your life is a building, you know On the first floor if that's where you live, you're going to have a certain perspective of what your neighborhood is And it's going to be very limited because you can only see from the first floor. And as you move up, if the 20 store [00:13:00] building, if you live above 10 and you start to live on the 15th floor, you have a different perspective of what is in your neighborhood than the person who lives on the first floor. And so conscious work is about kind of getting to a different perspective. I we know, you know, through so much more research now that we perceive the world. Through the lenses of our subconscious programming, you know, and so how we see the world is through the lens of our subconscious and that subconscious programming is is inherited and imprinted on us inherited like literally few generations before we know this through um, research on Holocaust survivors and their children and grandchildren. And we know this through the study, the cherry blossom study on mice were stressed and traumatized and it got passed down to their grand pups. I won't go into the study because it's **Michelle Oravitz:** and DNA. **Lorne Brown:** Yeah, it gets tagged. It's not a genetic mutation, it's a tag. So it can, one generation get tagged, and one generation you can heal it. So, you see the world through the lens of your subconscious, and that lens is based on your history. And [00:14:00] so, I heard a teacher of consciousness once say, Reality's white snow, let's pretend that. And then you have red glasses. I have orange glasses. Some of the listeners have blue, green, white, yellow. We're all seeing white snow, but we're all experiencing it, perceiving it differently because of our lens. And if we want to have a different experience to see that reality, we got to change our lens. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yes. **Lorne Brown:** You know, or we're both fans of Joe Dispenza, right? We both run retreats, and **Michelle Oravitz:** we're Joe Dispenza groupies. **Lorne Brown:** yeah, I like, I like his work. I like his retreats and his books. And in his book, Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself, I think it's where he said it. I've read all of his books and been to many retreats, but I really liked how he said your personal reality is based on your personality. And you can't have, how do you expect to have a different reality if you bring your current personality into your future? You're gonna get the same thing. Right. And so this is about having that shift because, you know, we're going kind of into a rabbit hole here, but if you're open for it, **Michelle Oravitz:** No, I'm totally open for it. And my, my listeners are used [00:15:00] to it, **Lorne Brown:** okay, you know, God, I see they're allowed to, or Gandhi, I've seen this quote attributed to both, but it kind of goes like your beliefs lead to your thoughts, which lead to your feelings, which lead to your actions and behaviors, which lead to your habits. which leads to your destiny. Basically they're saying is your behaviors are always congruent with your beliefs. And when they conflict the program, the belief is going to win. And if you do a behavior long enough, it becomes your habit. So it becomes a reality. So we often want to go and work on the outside world. We often want to go work on a behavior, but the behavior stems from a belief or a program often unconscious. And so we'll self sabotage ourselves, even though we really want to lose that weight. We go and we diet, we exercise, but that's a behavior. But if you have a program that, you know, I'm not beautiful, right, or I'm not thin enough, then the subconscious wants congruency, and it will find a way to sabotage that. [00:16:00] Consciously or unconsciously, it'll happen. And so rather than going to work on the behavior, we go to work on the program, and then it flows down, and the behavior changes naturally. **Michelle Oravitz:** It's so true. And it's almost that, you know, that saying whether you think whether you Think you can or can't  **Lorne Brown:** you're right. Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** it's just a matter of what we choose and I think the key with this is that people don't even realize It's almost like they're so asleep in the matrix **Lorne Brown:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** is such a great movie, by the way, because of that reason, it really shows us how, if we just knew that that was the case, **Lorne Brown:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** had those beliefs and it impacts our reality, then we would make a difference. But I think the problem is, is not even knowing that it's even there. **Lorne Brown:** Yeah. Well, of course, and I don't know if the age has changed, but it was my observation that around age 40, people start to realize that they need to do their inner work. the drug doesn't work anymore. The antidepressant isn't working, [00:17:00] or they're in a third relationship. It's not working. They change cities. Like it's not working. The changing the outside is only temporary. So somewhere around 40, maybe it's younger now cause things seem to be speeding up, but around age 40 people come in there and they don't know what they're looking for, but they know they're looking for it. And you and I have language for this, right? They're looking for inner work, conscious work, but they kind of know that I know by getting a new relationship, it's not going to help. I got it. Something's not right. about me. And I, you know, I'm going to give an example because the relationship one comes up a lot in my practice when people come and see me. and I share this as an example of self sabotaging programs and why I like the conscious work. And we can talk about how this plays with fertility as well and baby manifestation. This actually wasn't my patient, but it was somebody who shared it. And I loved this case so much because it, it really is a great explanation of of belief change. So She was around 45. She was a lawyer and she had become aware that she was somehow sabotaging relationships. No matter what [00:18:00] relationship she went in, like she would find some not such great guys in her opinion, but she actually realized she found some good guys too. But for some reason, even she knew there was a button and she, she knew she shouldn't push that button, but she would push the button even in her mind when she knew this isn't going to work out. And the, and the relationship would collapse. So at her clinical hypnotherapy session, She got regressed and in this regression, she's experiencing herself as a four year old and she's remembering her mom is making dinner for her and her older sister was around seven and she promises the girls that they get popsicles if they eat all their dinner. So her older sister. Eats her dinner fairly quickly and gets a popsicle. And she, she being for living in that theta brainwave living in the moment, it's not eating quickly. And all of a sudden she sees her sister with a popsicle and she goes, I want a popsicle and her mom's tired end of day. And she angrily says, no, you haven't eaten your dinner. You don't get your dinner to you. You don't get your popsicle till you finish your [00:19:00] dinner. And it probably wasn't said in a loving way. And this triggered the four year old. And like many four year olds, she got. You know, she had a little four year old temper tantrum, and that set off her mom, and then she got sent off. To her room without dinner and without popsicle. And in her story, she's thinking in her dialogue that mommy likes, mommy likes and loves my sister more than me. Mommy doesn't love me. I'm not lovable. And she has this aha moment when that program really started for her. I'm not lovable. Now, remember I said the subconscious and the conscious want congruency. The heart and mind want congruency. When it conflicts, the heart, the shen, the subconscious, wins. And so, she would have a relationship, and if this guy was doting and loving her, her subconscious goes, that's not who we are, we're unlovable. And she would Consciously or unconsciously sabotage the relationship. So in hypnotherapy work, we're able to bring her 45 year old self back and reparent doing her [00:20:00] child work and shift that. And I often say in my practice, I have a an approach. Notice, accept, choose again. Notice everything is neutral and we give it meaning. Neutral. She just did not get a popsicle. Neutral. The meaning she gave it was I'm not lovable, right? And children that are in theta, meaning they're in, they're sponges. They don't have that prefrontal development to discern things. They just take things in and we don't know why. But you know, if you're a product of divorce, which a lot of people are It's usually for the children. It does some form of scarring, subconscious scarring, right? Because the children feel like they're responsible. It's their fault. So guilt shows up or shame shows up. Not safe. So all these programs come up and when I distill them down, I see people that are worth hundreds of millions of dollars. I see people that can't afford my services, right? And based on what they get paid, right? And when you distill it down, the stories are, can be very different, but when you still it down, it's I'm not enough, right? I'm not lovable. [00:21:00] I'm not pretty enough. I'm not thin enough. I'm not smart enough. It's kind of, I'm not enough when you distill it down, whether you're worth a couple hundred million or whether you're scraping things together. So. Notice everything is neutral. We give it meaning. And when we believe in the story, we make it real. So this is not to believe in the story. And that's kind of that materialistic side, right? And we use these tools conscious work to go in and clean up the operating system. And here's an important point I want to share with our listeners is You know, you have this hardware, but the hardware functions depending on the software and I got multiple stories like this, but I'll give you a couple, you know, they have done research on those with multiple personality disorders and depending on the personality, right? One will need reading glasses. One will not. One's blood tests will be diabetic and the other one will not. Right? I mean.  **Michelle Oravitz:** to orange juice. **Lorne Brown:** Yeah, when we allergic not so same physical body. So from a journalistic point of view, this makes no sense, but from a quantum perspective, it does. Right. And and we've heard people [00:22:00] with near death experiences. I've, I've heard through a colleague of one before, and I just, I'd met one recently, actually, and she's written a book on it, Anita, where she, yeah, it's great, right? **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. Yeah. **Lorne Brown:** So, you know, her story is she. Developed cancer, funny thing, not so funny, but she always had a fear that she would die and get cancer. So, you know, you got to be careful where you're putting your focus, right? She did everything she could to not get cancer. She got cancer and she was ridden with tumors and she's in the hospital and her husband's by her side. And the story goes that she goes unconscious. So they tell her, say goodbye. She, this is it. She's, you know. She's going to die and she's got, they got on some medications too, I believe for pain relief. And I think it was a day or two later, she opens her eyes and she has an experience of a near death experience where we won't go into it today where she sees other. Family members are beings, but not the personalities like she just knew who they were, but she realizes she's coming back and she knew she was coming back [00:23:00] different. It wasn't like a full lobotomy, like 180 degree turn, but she had a personality change, right? And she knew her cancer is gone. And when she woke up, she tried to convince her husband her cancer was gone. And he's like, you know, no, you know, they got the doctors. She was able to re Share stories of conversations that they had outside when she was in the coma in another room. She forbade him. She could, you know, she knew what the doctor's shoes look like, right? Everything. So **Michelle Oravitz:** that's that bird's eye view. **Lorne Brown:** she was outside the body, but her cancer went away without any medication. After that, she woke up from a coma. And her cancer just resolved herself. So there's that personality. So her personality changed and her physical body changed, right? Because of this and going back to our friend Joe Dispenza, Dr. Joseph Dispenza and your listeners check out his book. They're supernatural the placebo and breaking the habit of being yourself. That's a really good one breaking the habit Right. It's a good one to start with. He talks about you can use matter to change matter, which can be slow. That's for our fertility patients taking supplements. [00:24:00] That's IVF, that's diet matter, change matter, or you can use energy to change matter, which can be spontaneous. Like what happened with Anita, which when her cancer went away, right? Is it went away pretty quickly, right? **Michelle Oravitz:** There's people with well, we see it all the time at Joe Dispenza's work stage four cancer. It just, it goes away. **Lorne Brown:** Yeah. So that's working with a different, dimension of yourself, right? If you want to speak. So the conscious work that I use is how to tap into that, how to tune into it. And it came from my experience, right? I, I've learned this and developed this from many people I've studied with. And I'm a kinesthetic learning. That's learner. That's why I've learned psych KFT, Marissa peers, rapid transformational therapy, Ericksonian The guy just. Love it, right? I think it started from insecurity. Not enough, not smart enough. So I kept on doing things which brought me my success outside, but inside it wasn't enough. So I kept on learning and learning and learning. And then eventually, you know, you're brought to your knees, which I was. debilitating anxiety. And I go in and do the [00:25:00] inner work and I have the transformation. And then I'm kind of at peace. Don't feel like I need to do too much. But now there's this new drive, this overflowing, wanted to share. It's a different feeling. It's comes from peace. It doesn't exhaust you. Right. And so I think on the outside, if I was looking at me, I looked. Similar as in go, go, go. Always learning, always doing right. But I was coming from fear and lack for many years, my doing and stuff. So my doing just got me more fear and lack because I could never feel that void. Now I'm going, going, going, but it's coming from feeling more whole and complete and I'm not attached whether I do it or not, right? I'm not attached to it so much. And but yet I'm still doing it. But now I feel Charged by it. **Michelle Oravitz:** That's so great. I mean, don't you see the yin and the yang too, in a lot of this **Lorne Brown:** Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** the harmony, the **Lorne Brown:** Yeah, and you got to keep going into the end So you then you have the young and it happens, right? So, you know, I go inside I become quiet and and then all of a sudden all this [00:26:00] activity and inspire thought comes through me And then I I want to go in and see if I can manifest it, right? **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. And everything kind of goes in pulses, you know, there's a, there's pulses, even with like experiences that we have in life, there's ebbs and flows. I think that we get impatient or we think that it's going to be forever, but nothing lasts forever. It's like the good news and the bad news, nothing lasts forever. **Lorne Brown:** Right? Yeah, it's the good news and the bad news. Yeah, in that sense, don't be attached. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, true. **Lorne Brown:** Which is a practice. **Michelle Oravitz:** it is, and it's something that the ancients have been telling us this whole time. They've told us to go within, they've told us not to be too attached, to learn from nature, to learn from what's around us. to flow, flow with it. **Lorne Brown:** And a tip for our listeners, because again, I teach what I've experienced. Many people may be going, well, I've read these books and I know all this stuff and I haven't had a shift. I was that guy where I had read everything and took courses, but I didn't do the process work. I, I conceptually understood it. I could teach it. But I wasn't living it. And it wasn't until I actually did the process work that the [00:27:00] transformation started happening, the awakening started happening. And so that's kind of, you know, with my patients, when I work with them, they want to get in the head and understand, which I love. We got to understand when you understand the why behind it, they say that the how becomes easier. The why is, you know, how does it work? And then the how is, what are you going to do? But if it's just an intellectual discussion you'll have a mind shift. But you won't have a trait change. And what's the difference? A mind shift is that temporary, you feel excited, this makes sense. It feels excited, but it's a shift. It's like when you pull an elastic band apart, it's neuro elasticity, it stretches out, this feels good. But within an hour or two, or a day or two, it goes back to its normal shape. So you haven't made a neuroplastic change, you just made a mindset shift. And if you do that daily, multiple times, it eventually become neuroplastic. And what I mean neuroplastic is if you stretch out a piece of soft plastic and you let go, it stays stretched. So that's the trait change. So repetition or doing many things that create a mind shift regularly often will give you [00:28:00] neuroplasticity changes, right? That hold becomes a trait. That's that, you know, do certain actions over and over again. So that's one way. But then there's other. faster ways to do neuroplastic changes, which doesn't just require repetition. That is one of them, but there's other processes I use. Part of my hypnosis practices and other energy psychology tools is what they're often called now to help make that neuroplastic change, not just from repetition, but from doing these Process work and we call it process work because it's not it's not done. It's a it's a bottom up process versus a top down So i'm not a counselor a therapist. That would be somebody who's doing a top down Let's talk about this and there's some benefit to it. The clinical hypnotherapist perspective is a bottom up meaning Your tyra box said this once your issues are stuck in your tissues So when you have these emotions rarely does somebody say I feel it in my head It does happen once in a while. Most people feel it in their throat, in their chest, in their stomach. It's in your cells. And we got science to talk about [00:29:00] how the microbiome changes with stress and emotions. **Michelle Oravitz:** images of people, all people that were angry, all people that were sad. And they would notice that it would light up in certain spots consistently in the body, which is really fascinating. You can probably find it online. **Lorne Brown:** cool. Absolutely. And, you know, we know like we got serotonin receptors in the gut. Now the heart's being known as a, as a second brain may have more what the read off of it more than the brain and, and then dispensa and heart math talk about heart brain coherence. So we're. You know, I look at it this way is, you know, back in the day of Galileo and Newton, the days when we thought that the sun revolved around the earth and the earth was flat, it was hard for society to shift and science to shift, right? Cause everything we understood the way we could look, it was like, no, no, the world's flat. It look at it, you can tell, look, look outside, doesn't look round or look, look, you can tell that. the sun is going around the earth. Look in the sky. It's so obvious. And you [00:30:00] can't tell me the earth is spinning. We would feel it, right? And now today, most people realize that the earth is round, not flat. There are so few flatters out there. They realize the earth is spinning and that the earth goes around the sun. But there's your perception, you know, there's the first floor view. From my view, the sun is going around the earth. I see it rise and set, right? I can see it float around. I'm standing still. I'm pretty sure about it, but that's a illusion. It's not a complete correct perception on that first floor when you go to a higher floor. So in this case, when we go into space, We can see that it's actually the earth that goes around the sun and the earth is round. And then if we go to a higher floor, we're going to probably get a whole other understanding of what's going on in this human experience and purpose and what's your individual purpose. And people have spoken of it. I haven't tapped into that aspect. I've had those. Non medicated, so non psychedelic experiences where I've tapped into profound peace, where I've tapped into bliss.[00:31:00]  I've also, through psychedelics, I've only done it once, so I'll never do it again, where I tapped into my shadow, right? Accelerated my journey, but I wouldn't wish that upon anybody, going into my shadow work unprepared. **Michelle Oravitz:** 'cause if you, you have to be ready for it. That's **Lorne Brown:** I wasn't ready for it. I, I, I cheated. I cheated with psychedelics. And it put me into my shadow grateful now because and here's a litmus test for myself. So I share this with the listeners as well. If you. don't like your life now, then I'm pretty sure you're still living in kind of a victim mode. You don't like your past and you'll have all the evidence to say why you don't like it. And if you can love your past, no matter how bad it is, then I know you love your now. I know you love your life. Why? Because You realize that who you are today is based on everything that's happened to you and you and because you love where you are today, you would never want to change your past because you love your day. Doesn't mean you want to relive your past, but you're grateful for. You don't regret it because you love today. [00:32:00] But if you hate your past, then it's I'm pretty sure you really don't love it. your day. And there are some terrible things that have happened to people. And I've seen people who've had terrible acts done to them. They would never ask to go do it again, like, but they also say, I love my life now. And so I wouldn't change anything in my past. So that shows you that's healed, right? That vibration that's healed. And so, because there's only this moment. So I find conscious work powerful when you bring it to reproductive health. I want to quote our Randine Lewis friend who wrote the book, The Infertility Cure, many books, but I remember hearing her talk about when women get into a later stage of their reproductive years, especially into their forties she said, you know, at the beginning, you know, reproduction is, it's a, it's a youth game, Jing, we call it essence Jing, it's the physicality, right? You got to have good physicality and it, and that happens with the youth. We see it around us, right? Like, a 90 year old and a 20 year old, the same person or different [00:33:00] physically. But there's something about spiritual maturity and sometimes, and this is where it kind of ties into Dr. Jo Dispenza, matter change matter. So that's the physical, the Jing. And then there's energy that can change matter. And that's what we call the Shen, the spirit tapping into that consciousness. And she says, when you're younger, you can be spiritually mature because you have such good Jing, it overrides everything. And so you can be a drug addict. And you're 20s and getting pregnant all the time, right? Poorly eating, all that stuff. And then if you get into your 40s, the physicality you want, but it's not enough, you need to, as she said, have your shit together. So that's, I'm quoting her. And sometimes that's when we see what we call miracles. It overrides the physical. And you really need to do that spiritual, the spiritual maturity happens. And so, you know, have both. Add to that her excitement with donor egg back in the day when we were having this conversation was she couldn't wait to meet the Children that were born through donor egg cycles because she [00:34:00] says currently this was way back when in early 2000 people were born with either young mothers, so physically strong, spiritually immature. They're in their twenties, early thirties or they're born with women in the early forties. physically not as strong, but spiritually more mature. So they didn't have both. She goes, but with the donor egg cycle, they get the gene from the, the egg. So a physical, physically strong, younger woman, and they are gestated. And raised by spiritually mature women. It's going to be the first time where they get both strength from the physical and strength from the spiritual. So she was quite excited. It was a different perspective to look at the Dorae. She was like, I wonder what kind of children these are going to be, right? So,  **Michelle Oravitz:** amazing. And actually it's really interesting. I don't know if you've seen this yourself, but sometimes the donor egg and the child looks like the mother. **Lorne Brown:** yeah, well, not surprising. I, I, I can't quote you on this, but I remember that they've done this in animals where you put him in a different, like, I don't know, [00:35:00] a donkey into a horse or something like, and it comes out looking more like the the mother. Like the, the horse. So, because don't forget you start as, you know, You know, a bunch of cells, right, you know, when you go in and you're grown, so you are influenced because you're, you're taking in in Chinese medicine talks about this, the emotional well being of the mother during pregnancy will impact the nervous system and the emotional personality of that child. And so what you're eating and what you're doing is helping grow that child. So we have what we call prenatal Jing, you know, for our listeners. So you get that from the mother, the father, and then. throughout pregnancy. And then postnatal Jing is what you, what happens after you're born. So your diet lifestyle. And so everything is impacting you up until you're born. That's what we'd call your genes. And in Chinese medicine called pre pre pregenetic destination, right? Prenatal, prenatal essence. I don't know if I said, if I use the right word, prenatal essence or prenatal Jing is what happens. So, yeah, I love [00:36:00] that story that she looked a little bit like the mother, not surprising. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. And I've actually seen it because I, one of them she's somebody that I'm friends with on Facebook and she's also been on the podcast, Nancy Weiss. She's a spirit baby medium, is a whole other **Lorne Brown:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** topic. Right. But she. donor embryos and one of her daughters, she put a side by side picture of herself when she was younger and the daughter, and it was crazy. How similar they looked and then I've heard another story of somebody with freckles that she's had freckles But the mother of the donor did not and her husband did not So she always wanted a child with freckles and sure enough one of them got freckles  **Lorne Brown:** Very cute. Yeah, And that, there's so much things we don't understand and the donor egg cycle, I don't know if you've seen this, but with my patients, they only have one regret and it's a great regret that I've always heard when I've heard any regrets, I don't hear it often, but I hear it [00:37:00] and they say that the only regret I have is that I didn't do this donor egg cycle sooner because I don't, I realized I could have been with this baby I, I waited, I, you know, cause they're doing other things and understand there's a process to come to this place where you're ready to do donor a. But that's a great regret. Meaning they love this baby like from day from day one implantation, right? They have this connection. They're their mother. And and. It's, it's, that's great news, right? Cause so many people understandably have to get their head around about not using their own genetic material, right? And when you get there, when you surrender, which is part of conscious work, right? And the resistance drops and you get into flow and receptivity, the experience can be beautiful. And then regardless, even if you don't, when that baby's born, you're like, what the heck? I've been waiting for this forever. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yes. And that's another thing. So looking at the same thing from different lenses and different perspectives, and then you can kind of think, [00:38:00] okay, I may have wanted it to go this way, but perhaps it can go another way. And I'll still get the end goal, which is really to become a mother. **Lorne Brown:** Yeah, that's the end goal. And that's what we want to focus on. And from the conscious work, you know, we, we hear so often in manifestation work and in teachers of consciousness, not to be attached to form an outcome. And I'm a practical guy. So the left brain, my math background, my accounting, I'm, what I would say my feet are on the ground and my header is in the clouds, not just, you know, some people either their head in their clouds. So some people in our industry just head in the clouds. So it's hard to bring it to this earth or my old profession as a accountant, the feet are on the ground, right? I feel like I'm, I'm doing both of that.  So. I want to share this because this worked for me. And again, I often share is, you know, it's easy to say don't attach to form an outcome. That's easy to say you're not the one that has, you want this form an outcome. So it's, you can't fool the universe. You can't pretend, right? Really pretend, but you can do [00:39:00] practices. And I have found this line and I didn't come up with this. I heard this from somebody else and I was like, brilliant. And it works for me and it's worked for hundreds of other people I've worked with this or something better. Yeah. I want this or something better that had such a different vibration to it because you didn't choose your desire So I will never say you can't have you can't want this You can't desire this because you didn't choose it. I I prefer chocolate ice cream over strawberry. I can't tell you why it's just it is I just like I want chocolate ice cream. I don't really want strawberry ice cream. It's just What is, and so, but when you have a desperate need for it, that if I can't have this, then you create resistance and that impacts the field and that cannot be healthy. But if you have a desire, you want it, but you also know you're going to be okay, whether you have it or not, that doesn't add resistance to the field. And so often we, cause if you get focused on has to be this way, then you're not leaving yourself open to other things that [00:40:00] can bring you that same experience. Right? Because what does the baby bring to you? Right? You know, why do you want the baby? What's it gonna bring? What's gonna be different? What are you gonna experience? You know this kind of work, right? Because then you could get little, I call them Drift logs or kisses on the cheek from the universe where you know what it feels like you're practicing what it feels like and it's This or this or something better and then all of a sudden it that same experience comes to you But it's a different manifestation physically. So you're like, oh You know getting that feeling and so you're you're starting to get it from other places as well You're experiencing it. And when I say get it from other places I want to use that loosely is you have learned to Elicit that experience inside of you and then you're starting to see it manifested on the outside so because you don't want to have to get it from the outside because again, then you're not whole and complete This whole work is about becoming whole and complete where it's cut. You are it's It's you're making it inside of it. You're tapped into a part of yourself higher than I guess the ego self to use that language. And then it becomes fun to [00:41:00] see if you can manifest it on the outside, but you're already experiencing the feeling. Hence it's easy not to be attached because you're already feeling the joy or the love or the nurturing of something else, right? And the being of service to something else, you're already bringing up that experience. So you don't need it on the outside, but then all of a sudden you see it on the outside and that just bumps it up a bit. It amplifies it. And so you get, but it's temporary, that amplification. And then when you come back to your set point, that set point is peace and joy anyhow. So you're good. **Michelle Oravitz:** So it's unconditional peace and joy. It doesn't have a condition on it. You choose to just have that. **Lorne Brown:** Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** you can, and I think that that's the big thing is that people don't realize that they can actually do that. They could bring it up through just meditation and different practices that they can bring it up in themselves. **Lorne Brown:** Yeah. You tap into that. And I mean, I've, I've had that. I have glimpses. I have experiences of it. And for now the language is I'm, I'm tapping into my true nature and everybody has this true nature, your witness consciousness, your higher self, you want to give it a word. [00:42:00] And. I think we might have talked about this when I interviewed you on the Conscious Fertility podcast, but it's not all positive. It feels good. You still get uncomfortable feelings. You're just not at the full effect of them. So you experience the sadness. You can experience fear. You can experience guilt or hopelessness, but it moves through you like a song on a radio, 90 seconds, and it passes through you. And then you're back to that peace. And So if you're able to not get into the story and you can experience it, you still feel these uncomfortable feelings, but there's a, there's could be an underlying peace or even beauty behind some of those feelings. You're just not at the full effect of them and they just don't last for, for weeks. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. Well, the untethered soul, I think that was like a big game changer for me, that book **Lorne Brown:** Michael Singer's book. Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** Singer, he's amazing. And I think that it really was about like allowing discomfort to happen without judgment, without that kind of good or bad, that neutrality, just kind of allowing it to happen. And I have an [00:43:00] example because I burned myself. I remember it was a Friday night and I was exhausted. I was so tired. I couldn't wait to sleep. And I burned my thumb. was like, man, and it was a stupid thing. Cause I was so tired and I touched something and I knew I shouldn't have done, it was just like, without thinking. And I was like, how am I going to sleep with this burning sensation? It was like the worst feeling ever. You know, it's like when you first burn yourself. And I remember thinking to myself, maybe it was like my higher guidance, something resist the burn. So I was like, okay, let me try this. literally felt, I closed my eyes and like, I imagined myself just kind of going through the fire with my hand and almost. Accepting it, inviting it, allowing it. And literally within five minutes, the burn went away. **Lorne Brown:** Yeah, and that's the quantum. That's energy changing matter and you use the awesome word resistance Right resistance is futile to quote the Borg from Star Trek Resistance is futile for those Trekkies out there When you add resistance basically you amplify the burn you amplify the [00:44:00] suffering or take from the Buddhist quote pain is inevitable the burn hurts Suffering is optional. That's where you amplify and when you can lean into it versus it's counterintuitive because we should run away from it. We think, right? And I had that similar experience in the nineties. I I had read, I read dr joe dispenses book, but I didn't understand it. I kind of read it, but Didn't catch very much of it the first read and one day when I was studying to write the exams to become a chartered accountant, a CPA I had sadness come over me real, and it was a new thing. I wasn't something I really experienced this kind of sadness that I could recall. And I don't know why I did this, but there's again, another part of you leading the way here. I decided to, in the middle of the day, I had shared accommodations. I was living with a female and she had Yanni and the Ghetto Blaster. Back in the day, it was Ghetto Blasters. with cassettes, maybe CDs. She had some incense burners. So I lit that and there was like lavender rose in it. And I went in the [00:45:00] bath and just decided to experience the sadness. So as I'm listening to the sad music, there's some incense and candle lit in the middle of the day in the bath, hot bath. I'm so going into the sadness. Tears are rolling down my eyes. And in a moment I'm in full bliss. Like I'm like bliss. Like. But I I don't do drugs, but what except for that psychedelic experience, what, what a good high would be like, it was like, and honestly, if that's what it feels like, I understand why people would do drugs. It was just bliss. And I'm like, you know, try to be sad. Because I was like, this feels great. Can I be sad? I couldn't be sad. And it was only later I had that experience first. And then I read dispenses book. Sorry, not just Ben's, Eckhart Tolle's book, Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now is what I meant. And the line where he says, you, when you're present, you can't suffer, because when you're regretting the past or fear in the future, you're not in the present. But if you're in the present, he says, even sadness can be turned into bliss. And when I read that line in the book, [00:46:00] I had my aha moment because I had that experience. And now the process that I do in my conscious work is about lowering the resistance. Somebody says, what are you doing? You're tuning into your, your wist witness consciousness. You mentioned Michael Singer, the untethered soul. He often says he doesn't use tools or do tools, but he kind of does. And and I have a process that I believe brings down the resistance. My experience, people, I've worked with and then you have that flow and receptivity and sometimes I just have peace. Maybe it's at, you know, if my, if I'm frustrated or fear, it's a seven out of 10, it'll come down to say a two or one. So peace in an unhappy situation still, right? But peace. So the resistance is low. Yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** flow in that moment. And it's interesting because I, my litmus test is, are you present? Really? That's the question. I, a lot of people that I work with is, are you present? Like, cause many times when they share things that are uncomfortable for them, they're not really in the present moment. They're either [00:47:00] expecting a future or thinking about a past or something that happens. So the present moment's always the antidote. To everything. If we **Lorne Brown:** present. And that's what the mind does. It's the nature of the mind. You can't get mad at the mind for thinking because that's its nature to be like getting upset with water for being wet, right? It's its nature. So you're fighting with reality. However, there's tools to help you get present and these uncomfortable feelings can become portals to presence. Right. And you're not wallowing them and, and embellishing them, you know, you're not inflating them. You're leaning into them and observing them. So I think what's happening, my experience, my understanding to this point is when we really get practice at noticing and observing them and accepting them, I think we're tuning, we go into present moment, but we do this by tuning into our witness consciousness because the mere fact of witnessing them, not, it shouldn't be this way. It's not fair, like getting into the head. But. **Michelle Oravitz:** neutral watcher. **Lorne Brown:** get into the watching, just getting practice at watching, then you [00:48:00] tune into your witness consciousness and that nature of you is peace and joy. So you tune into it. So wherever you put your energy is what's going to grow. So if you believe in the story and you're at the effect of the story, then you're You're unconscious and you're experiencing it. You're suffering right now. You've amplified the negative situation if you're able to observe it I'm not saying you'll like it. We're not doing a spiritual bypass here, but getting practice at observing at it I believe you tune into the witness consciousness and It's nature's peace and joy and the metaphor I use for this Michelle is when we so Tell me how this lands for you and I'm curious for your audience because this for me was my another aha moment just like what's going on here because I'm having these experiences and I want to have language to share with the people I work with. So if you buy an apple, you have to consciously you Michelle ego Michelle has to pick up the apple and chew it. But after that, Michelle, you're not going release salivary enzymes in your mouth. Like I got to do that. Nobody talked to me. Nobody talked to me. I'm getting acid into [00:49:00] my stomach now. Okay, I cannot. Walk up the stairs because my intestines are now absorbing the all these B vitamins or same thing when you sleep when you go to sleep You're unconscious. You're not breathing yourself. You're not pumping your blood Or pumping your heart circulating your blood your autonomic nervous system is doing this another part your subconscious program is doing this, right? The autonomic nervous system. Well same thing. I don't believe for me that I let go of these programs or emotions anymore. Not Lauren Brown ego. Just like I don't release the salivary enzyme. All I have, I believe it's my witness consciousness does this. It's what's metabolizing these uncomfortable feelings and old programs. And how do we do this? Well, first you have to make the unconscious conscious. So that's my notice step. Everything is neutral and then we give it meaning. Don't believe in the story. When you do, you make it real. So don't take it personally. Then I have multiple tools during the accepting part to surrender to what is, not fight it. Doesn't mean you're resigned to it. Doesn't mean you like it. We're just accepting that this is how I feel right now. And you [00:50:00] accept it and you start to observe it and get really, this is a skill. You get practice at observing it. And by that observing, you tune into the witness consciousness and it is what lets go the feelings. It's what metabolizes it. So, so. It's the intelligence. And so give it a conscious divine. I don't know if it's a part of me or part. I don't know. All I know is Lauren Brown is not doing it. Just like Lauren Brown gets to choose to bite the apple. Lauren Brown gets to choose to notice, not take it personally and observe it. That's all I do. The digestion of the apple is outside of my ego, my conscious mind, the digestion and the alchemy of these emotions where I was sad, went from sad to bliss. Right or go from fear to just feeling at peace. I'm not doing that I don't believe I let go of it and this ties into Michael Singers He says that these I don't know what he calls them Sankara's or something these these these energy blocks. They're [00:51:00] there So you're not experiencing your true nature You're all blocked up with these old programs and beliefs and feelings, but when they get released they move up and out You have this space now where you get to experience yourself. So that's how he describes it. Does, I mean, the, the metaphors and the concepts, yeah, the bottom line is you got to do the work you get. That's my point. It's nice to understand. A lot of us cannot confirm or prove anything, but when you have the experience, you don't care because the experience is peace and peace. It was nice. **Michelle Oravitz:** It is. **Lorne Brown:** I'm not at the, I'm not at the state, I'm not at the stage where I can equally treat fear and, and peace or fear and love together. Like some people say you get to a place where you don't, you don't judge either. You're, they're just vibrations. You're okay. I definitely prefer peace and joy and bliss over fear, shame, guilt, just so you know. Yeah. **Michelle Oravitz:** really our true default **Lorne Brown:** Yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** is in that nature and that's the Buddha [00:52:00] nature. That's kind of like **Lorne Brown:** yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** like form and we learn the other things. **Lorne Brown:** yeah, **Michelle Oravitz:** habituated through habits. So bringing this into fertility, which I think is actually very relevant, even though, you know, it's kind of like this big grand concept, it could totally apply to going through IVF, going through the resistance. And also in the IVF, you get so focused on the numbers and the analytical, where sometimes you need to kind of. move back and allow yourself the space and the, and to really take care of your wellbeing. And that's kind of like a, my big thing about that, which always tends to kind of fall in the back burner burner. **Lorne Brown:** yeah, yeah, you're going through the journey and anyhow, so that's all thing pain is Inevitable suffering is optional. I don't think anybody would want to go through an IVF However, if you're going through it, you could go kicking and screaming and suffer through it, or you can go through it and, and not amplify the difficulties of it. And that, again, is a skill set, because [00:53:00] IVF is not easy. As you know, the research shows it's like getting a cancer diagnosis or terminal diagnosis, infertility. So I want to clarify that we're not dismissing it. The conscious work is about being authentic. It's actually about feeling your feelings. However, with a different lens and developing a skill set, a process, so you can metabolize it, right? But yeah, if you're going to go on this journey, if you're in this journey, you didn't choose it, but you're in it. And so how do you use it as, as they say in the conscious teachings, how do you make it as, how is this happening for you versus to you? What does that mean? How do I get out of victim mode? Because it doesn't serve you to being accountable, responsible. What does that mean? Accountable responsible does not mean you blame yourself or you blame other accountable. Responsible means that if you're having the experience, then that's all you need to know that you're responsible for healing it because you're the one having the experience. If you if you it wasn't your responsibility, then you wouldn't be having that experience. And there's so many experiences [00:54:00] happening around the world at one time, and each individual is only aware of so many the ones that they're aware of that are triggering them that they're experiencing. That's, that's all you need to know that that means you're accountable, responsible for that. The stuff that's happening around the world that doesn't trigger you, it's not your responsibility to do the inner work around it. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. Well, I mean, I can keep talking to you forever and of course we just talked about one subject, so perhaps I'll bring you back for other ones as well. But this is this is definitely the kind of thing that I'm very interested in and I nerd out on this all the time. It really is something I think about every single day. I think that it is when you really are bringing up your consciousness and becoming more aware in your life and. Really being the creator of your life or owning that you are a creator in your life I just think it brings another element of purpose and meaning everything. **Lorne Brown:** Yeah. We all want to be happy. And we think different things outside of us will make us happy. This work brings that kind of [00:55:00] happiness. And if, to kind of wrap this part up on consciousness from the materialistic and then the quantum perspective, you know, when we, when we're unconscious, or when we're in that state of fear, we don't feel safe, right? Then our body goes into survival mode, right? The fight or flight. And so, our resources are not available for healing. creativity and reproduction because they're in survival mode, you know, blood gets drained from the, the thinking brain goes, the blood gets drained from the digestion reproduction. And so, but when you feel safe, which is what conscious work is, so here's on the material level, you free up resources for healing, creativity, reproduction. And we know this, that the unsafe hormones of cortisol. and adrenaline and epinephrine, all those things affect inflammation, the body, the effect, your immune system, your hormonal system, your gut microbiome. And when you feel safe, you're releasing the

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I dive into why your nervous system may hold the key to conception. We all know how stress can impact fertility, but did you know that your nervous system plays a direct role in reproductive function? I'll break down how chronic stress and nervous system dysregulation affect hormone balance, digestion, and overall well-being. In this episode, I'll also explore the yin and yang dynamics of the nervous system through the lens of Traditional Chinese Medicine and share practical strategies to restore balance, enhance relaxation, and support your fertility naturally. Key Takeaways:  Chronic stress can put the body into survival mode, diverting energy away from reproduction. A harmonious balance between action (yang) and rest (yin) is essential for optimal fertility and overall well-being. Stress impacts digestion, which in turn affects fertility. The vagus nerve plays a key role in restoring balance. Proper sleep helps regulate hormones, maintain circadian rhythms, and support menstrual health. Practices like yoga, qigong, breathwork, grounding, and acupuncture help shift the body into a restorative state conducive to conception. The heart-uterus connection in Traditional Chinese Medicine highlights the role of oxytocin in conception and reproductive health. ---- For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ Transcript: [00:00:00] [00:01:00]  Michelle Oravitz: Welcome back to the wholesome fertility podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orobitz. And today I'm going to be talking about something absolutely crucial for fertility. And you may have not guessed this, but it's your nervous system. We all know how stress can impact fertility, but did you know that your nervous system plays a direct role in reproductive function for both men and women? Today, we'll cover how nervous system dysregulation affects fertility, why stress hormones like cortisol disrupt reproductive balance, and how to regulate your nervous system to boost your fertility. And because I love blending Western science and traditional Chinese medicine, we'll [00:02:00] also explore the yin and yang dynamics of the nervous system and how keeping these energies in balance is key for optimal fertility. So let's dive in. So first I'm going to talk about the autonomic nervous system, and it is basically what is hidden in the background, taking care of your body at all times, whether you're conscious of it or not. So for short, we can call it ANS. So the ANS controls involuntary functions like heart rate, digestion, and reproductive function. It has two main branches. One is called the sympathetic nervous system, and you may have heard this referred to as the fight or flight. And the other is the parasympathetic nervous system, and that is considered the rest and digest. So if you want to think of this as the yin and yang, the yang is more active and it would be more of the fight or flight. Which isn't a bad thing 'cause you know, everything that we have in our [00:03:00] bodies are there for a reason. And the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest, would be considered more of a yin, which is more in its potential and it's more calm and inert. So when these two systems are in balance, everything works really well, and ultimately we need both in order to survive. And that is why it's there in the first place. But when stress takes over and the body shifts into survival mode, then this is considered more chronic stress. It's something that happens all the time. So we're not meant to have this So fight or flight mode happen chronically, we're meant to have it to take us out of danger, but we're not always in danger and we'll still feel it because of our stressful thoughts or stressful situations in our life will cause us to feel like we need to survive. So when this happens chronically, it creates a sympathetic nervous system in overdrive and this can directly [00:04:00] impact fertility. So just to recap on the yin and yang, if you haven't heard about this before, the yin is a more feminine, quiet, calm state. And it's more receptive. It's cooling. It is considered the moon, whereas the yang is the sun. It's more active. It moves a lot. It moves quickly. It is more the fight or flight. It has a yang energy and the yang could be more heating. So like I said, it was, more representative of the sun and mobilizes energy for action. Generally, although fight or flight and rest and digest are just one examples that have yin and yang qualities, we have yin and yang aspects of our bodies really for everything. And in order for our bodies to thrive in general, the yin and yang have to have a harmonious state. So they need to work together as a couple. And when that happens in a harmonious balanced [00:05:00] state, that is when we thrive. And you can think about it as homeostasis. The body likes homeostasis and homeostasis is really vital in order for our bodies to thrive. So we can also look at actions that we're doing. If we're doing things that are too young, too active, like type A personality type of thing, where we have to get everything done, everything on the checklist has to get done, and we're not really taking time out for the rest and digest, or for time to just get more. restorative, restorative sleep, restorative rest, or do things that are less action oriented. When we don't have that balance, then we go into a more overdrive aspect of the young, and that can burn us out. And it's important to know that when we get into a survival mode, our bodies and our minds are not focused on any kind of creativity whatsoever because we have to survive and the body's always going to favor survival over [00:06:00] reproduction. So if reproductive energy needs energy, then it's going to basically tap. It's kind of like our savings account. And the body, if it's really depleted, it's going to tap into the savings account and use that for survival, which means that it's taking energy away from reproduction. And when energy is being taken away from reproduction, then it's not going to reproduce because that is not priority. The priority is survival. So, Having this chronically can really, really wreck havoc on your hormone balance and really impact so many different systems. It can impact how you sleep. When people feel really stressed. Then they're going to have a really hard time falling asleep because their nervous system is constantly wired and ready. You know, when we're in a survival mode, we're not going to want to sleep too deeply because look at our ancestors. If they knew that they were in danger. [00:07:00] They were going to be a lot more awake. You see a lot of cats with their ears open. Their nervous system is very receptive to any kind of noise. So small noises can wake us up and we're not going to be in a state where we can just let go and feel safe. And ultimately being in the rest and digest mode really means feeling more safe. Another thing to consider is the fact that our rest and digest mode, I mean, based on the actual description of that means that it's restorative, the rest, but it also helps digestion. So we know that high stress that is chronic can lead to issues with digestion. So Our digestive health is incredibly important when it comes to fertility health. In Chinese medicine, we look at the spleen and the stomach as a pair. And those organs are actually, even though the spleen in Western medicine is more something that works on our immune system, which the spleen and stomach do to some extent, [00:08:00] because when our digestive health is really healthy, our bodies have enough energy to fight off any outside impacts. any disease, really. So it gives us the energy that we need. So we need our digestive system to work properly in order to nourish our bodies so that our bodies are able to get energy. Plus it also, with a healthy digestive system, you have less inflammation and a lot of imbalances with the digestive system or even our gut microbiome can impact. autoimmune conditions or our immunity and have it a little more hyperactive because there's chronic low grade inflammation at all times. So those are things that are actually really, really important. And as we know, chronic stress can impact our digestive system. So we have a relationship really between the brain and the gut is absolutely real And it is mediated by something called the vagus nerve.  And that is a cranial nerve that is in [00:09:00] charge and actually having it stimulated can impact your heart rate and it can impact your digestive system. SoSo it has a direct communication between the brain and it has a direct communication to the enteric nervous system. Michelle Oravitz: So the enteric nervous system is basically our digestive nervous system. it runs from your mouth all the way down to your anus. So it's basically your whole digestive system has its own nervous system. And this is called the enteric nervous system. So your thoughts and your emotions and your emotional state can indirectly impact your nervous system of your gut through the vagus nerve. So your thoughts and emotional state and stress levels can impact your gut health through the nervous system. And of course, if your sleep is impacted, this is going to cause your hormones to get impacted because sleep helps restoration. It also helps deplete excess hormones and balance [00:10:00] hormones altogether. It also impacts our circadian rhythm. And for women, this is really important when it comes to their menstrual cycle, because our circadian rhythm, which is our 24 hour clock also impacts our infradian rhythm, which is the 28 to 29 day cycle, which is our menstrual cycle. And when it comes to Chinese medicine, our heart health or heart state is really, really important when it comes to fertility health, it has a direct line of communication. And a really,a direct vessel to the uterus, which through something called the bow my channel. And this is really important for conception. So many times when our hearts are not in the right place, then it can impact really how our uterus and our womb reacts. So it is one of the really most important things is really connecting to that heart center. And also we know that the love hormone oxytocin increases around ovulation and it increases [00:11:00] after intercourse. So we know that there is something to that. It has to be there for a reason if it has a role to play in conception. Although this aspect has not really been studied as much in depth.   We know that it wouldn't be there unless it had played a role. And   Most of the studies done on oxytocin really are geared towards labor and the body going into labor. So we know that if that's the case, and in Chinese medicine, the heart opens the uterus, that's its role. Then perhaps the heart opening the uterus opens it in labor, but perhaps it also opens it in receiving new life. Because as we can see, the levels increase around time. which is optimal time of conception around ovulation. And after a woman has an orgasm, it also increases for men as well. But in this case, I'm talking more about women because it has a role on the womb. So in cases of men, [00:12:00] their sperm health can get impacted by a dysregulated nervous system. So it's important for men to also have The proper rest and proper nervous system balance. So we also know that with men it is important to have the Yin and Yang balance as well. When it comes to overall, you know, Yang is more of a male energy and they do have a lot of that heat. But also the sperm is really surrounded by Yin fluids. So it is very Yin also in nature, even though it's very quick swimming. So it's important for both to be in balance for men as well. So again, going back to the nervous system, we're thinking about something that's active, but something that is also restorative and having those two opposites in balance. So a couple of things that you can do to balance the nervous system, and this can be done for both the men and the women, is to do things like yoga or qigong, because [00:13:00] with moving the body, you're able to really restore a state of balance. safety in the body and where the body feels safe, it has more energy for its creativity. So the body's creativity is fertility, but the same thing happens with the mind. When the mind is in chronic stress, the last thing it thinks about is creating and innovating. And usually when the mind feels safe, it will be more open we'll have more energy to create. So another thing that can be done is grounding. Grounding is incredibly calming and it also calms the nervous system because most of the time it's done outside. Although you can get a grounding mat if need be, which is something that you can purchase online, and you can use indoors. Grounding has an impact to regulate your circadian rhythm. It also helps you sleep really well at night. And it also has an impact on lowering inflammation on the body. This is scientifically proven and there's research on [00:14:00] this and there's studies about this and it's pretty amazing. It also decreases the time for wound healing, which means that it heals the body really quickly. Native Americans have always talked about why it is so important and actually that the body can become sick if it doesn't ground. So grounding is incredibly important and one of the things that is often missed these days because we have rubber soles and our feet don't really have many opportunities to ground into the earth. And what grounding really means is having your feet touch the earth, whether it's sand, dirt, or grass. An opportunity where it's able to touch the earth directly. And by doing so, It actually impacts your body's electromagnetic frequency. Another thing that can be done besides yoga and qigong is also breath work. Breath work also has a direct impact on the mind. When your mind is nervous or stressed out, you typically will have that [00:15:00] reflect in your breath by being short what happens is when we're more relaxed, we actually breathe slower and deeper. So by breathing slower and deeper, you're actually able to impact the body. and create and induce a more calming effect immediately. And also by using belly breath, you can use the diaphragm. So it's diaphragmatic breathing, which can also impact your nervous system and calm it down. Something else you can do is humming. And by humming, you're creating a certain vibration that can impact your vagus nerve. So it basically stimulates the vagus nerve which can also have a very calming effect on your nervous system. You can also listen to music. So the sound vibration in certain types of music, not all music can have a very calming effect on your nervous system. And examples for that are solfeggio frequencies [00:16:00] and even sound bowls and even classical music. So those are sounds that can create more coherence and order in your mind and your body. Something else that you can do is also do some heart math exercises. Heart math institute is something that I would definitely suggest looking into. And what they study is the connection between the heart and the brain. And when your nervous system is more calm, it shows. And when your heart brain coherence has increased, there's more coherence and order and that induces a state of more calm and a more restorative state in your body. And of course I am very biased, but, I am very big on acupuncture, which is really how I got into it. I started out as a patient myself and acupuncture, the practice of acupuncture and getting treatments for acupuncture can be incredibly beneficial for your nervous system. It is so powerful isbecause it gets you into a state of deep relaxation. [00:17:00] And when you're able to deeply relax, your body is able to restore itself and regenerate and repair. So on that topic, one of the ways that it does that is using ear points, but you can actually use your fingers and massage your own ears because your whole body is reflected in your ears. You could do the same thing for your feet as well. And I would suggest also starting out a really nice sleep hygiene routine, which means lowering lights about an hour to two hours before you go to sleep. That is going to help restore your sleep. The more sleep you get, the more calm and at ease your nervous system is going to be. So those are my tips for calming and restoring your nervous system. So that concludes my tips on balancing your nervous system. and I hope that this episode shed some light on how intertwined our nervous system is with our fertility health And why it's so important to [00:18:00] nurture a balanced nervous system state. If you have any questions and have any ideas for future episodes. Feel free to reach out to me on instagram and my handle is at the wholesome lotus fertility I'm very active on instagram. So that is the best way to find me so thank you so much for tuning in today. Have a beautiful day. [00:19:00]   

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome Kerry Hinds @fertilebodyyoga, founder of Fertile Body Yoga, who shares her inspiring fertility journey and how yoga became an essential part of her path to motherhood. Kerry opens up about her struggles with infertility, navigating IVF abroad, and ultimately conceiving naturally after stepping away from treatments. She also discusses the benefits of fertility yoga for calming the nervous system, enhancing blood flow, and creating a supportive environment for conception. In this episode, you'll learn how yoga can help balance your nervous system, why feeling safe is essential for fertility, and practical ways to integrate fertility yoga into your daily routine. This heartfelt conversation is filled with wisdom, hope, and practical tips for anyone on their fertility journey. Key Takeaways:  Kerry's personal fertility journey and challenges with IVF The pivotal moment when she conceived naturally after stepping away from treatments How fertility yoga supports the nervous system and reproductive health The importance of feeling safe and creating space within the body Practical tips on incorporating breathwork, movement, and mindfulness for fertility Guest Bio: Kerry Hinds @fertilebodyyoga is a certified E-RYT, RPYT, Relax and Renew® teacher, fertility yoga instructor, and Reiki practitioner. She founded Fertile Body Yoga to support individuals on their fertility journeys. Drawing from her personal experiences with fertility challenges, including undergoing treatments and experiencing pregnancy loss, Kerry offers compassionate guidance to her students. She leads weekly fertility yoga classes and provides various mind-body support programs through the Fertile Body Yoga Virtual Studio. Kerry is also the host of the "Fringe Fertility" podcast, where she explores holistic and alternative approaches to enhancing fertility. Websites/Social Media Links: Learn more about Kerry HindsFollow Kerry Hinds on Instagram Listen to her podcast: The Fringe Fertility For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ ---------------- Transcript: # TWF: Kerry Hinds [00:00:00] Episode number 329 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. My guest today is Carrie Hines. Carrie is the owner and founder of Fertile Body Yoga, a virtual yoga studio that is dedicated to supporting women navigating their fertility journey. She offers both live stream and on demand fertility yoga classes. and small group programs that embrace the complete journey physically, mentally, emotionally, energetically, spiritually, and socially. Carrie has been teaching yoga for over 20 years and has been specializing, teaching, and training almost solely fertility yoga for eight years. Her classes and offerings are informed by her own experiences with pregnancy loss, years of IVF, and eventually completing her family with two children. Carrie has supported thousands of women on their fertility journey so far and is on a mission to help women conceive and birth with yoga and community. Carrie also [00:01:00] hosts Fringe Fertility, a podcast that highlights supportive fertility practices beyond the doctor's office. **Michelle:** Welcome to the podcast. Carrie. I'm so happy to have you. **Kerry:** Thanks for having me, Michelle. I'm so happy to be here and spend some time with you today. **Michelle:** Yes. I would love for you to share your story first of all I love fertility yoga. I always suggest for my patients and my clients to do it It's something that I've personally myself have been really transformed by yoga in general. Many different types of yoga, a huge believer in it. And I also think that it's a, I call it an intelligent exercise. It's something that's been around for thousands of years and [00:02:00] really is a medicine in its own. So I would love for you to share your story and how you personally went through your own journey, but also how you combine fertility with yoga. **Kerry:** Okay. Yeah. I'll try and be a little bit concise cause I could go on and on for the, for a long time about this topic. But you know, as many listeners out there, you know, I didn't really start thinking about having kids till I was in my mid thirties. I took me a while to find the person I wanted to share my DNA with. Right. So when I did, we got married we moved to Germany and We went to Germany with the intention of this would be a good time for me to have kids. He's going to do his PhD. Germany has so many great social supports for families and so on. So we're like, Oh, it's just skim the cream off the top of that social system. And so when we got there, as often [00:03:00] happens, things don't go as planned when it comes to fertility. So we rolled into IUI. So we tried for six months, we found a clinic and. You know, we lived in old Eastern Germany, so it was hard to find English speaking doctors. So it was a very interesting time of my life. Not only was it just stressful in general dealing with what's going on and is this ever going to happen to living in another culture, another country? I didn't have a ton of support around, but then trying to navigate a new language that I was not fluent in. at all. So, I, you know, had one amazing friend there who spoke fluent, fluent German, American woman. And she's like,I will help you. And she went into those appointments with me, **Michelle:** oh **Kerry:** did all the **Michelle:** What a great friend **Kerry:** I know, I know. It was so amazing because I was so [00:04:00] lost at that time trying to figure out, like, just what's going on, but then how to say it in a different language or understand it in a different language. So for anybody who's doing this, fertility journey overseas or is here in North America It's not your mother tongue English, and you're trying to figure it out, I see you, I understand how this can add an extra level of stress to it. So we. You know, during that time, I actually went and did a yoga teacher training cause I was like, this isn't working. I want to do something for myself. So let's go get a yoga teacher training. I'd actually been teaching yoga for years before this was, so I've been teaching yoga for 20 years far before, This, you know, all these 200 hour yoga teacher trainings that, you know, you can sign up for one. No problem now. But back then it was your teacher [00:05:00] tapped you on the shoulder and said, Hey, do you want to be like, let's do this. And so that's kind of how I started yoga. But then when I was in Germany, I was like, okay, I need to, let's make this legit, right? Let's go get the training. I love it. I was teaching in Germany and so on. So that was sort of the, the main integration of the yoga into the fertility journey was just taking that bigger step to get the certification. And then, yeah, we went, we did IUIs. The first IUI was successful in that I got pregnant and, you know, 10 week ultrasound, there was no heartbeat. So we lost that baby. Yeah, and it was again, different culture, different bedside manners, different, it was just so stark. That's the word I could use for it. Shocking. It was just like, okay. The baby has no heartbeat. We're booking you in tomorrow for a DNC. Be there at 6 a. m. [00:06:00] You know, there was no time to, to, to absorb what was, to breathe, to figure out what I wanted. it was just like this snowball that was just like, okay, this has happened. You're going to do this. You're going to be better than you're going to start again. And you're going to keep trying and trying. So that's a whole other rabbit hole we could go down. But yeah, it was, it was a lot. It was a lot. And so we ended up going to do IVF, and this was, you know, 15 years ago. So things were maybe a little different than they are now. LikeICSI was just sort of a, more of a thing, right? It's Ooh, we're going to do this new cool thing. ICSI. I was like, okay. And they're like, and then there's embryo glue and we'll glue your embryo to your uterus. And it was all cutting edge at this time. And We did it. We did many cycles frozen cycles fresh cycles. Yeah, so many cycles and [00:07:00] nothing stuck, right? We had been doing IVF for two years and we kind of just paused and said, Is this, do we want to keep doing this?is this how we envision our life to be? And we wanted kids for sure, but we also wanted to start living our lives again. So that was a very pivotal moment in our journey is when we stepped away from IVF. We said, okay, we're done. I had gained weight. I wasn't feeling like myself. My body was weirdly puffy in different places and just, I was unhappy and I was emotional and I was just like, let's. Let's, let's walk away. And I remember my fertility doctor at the time, he said, you know, your chances of getting pregnant naturally are like one in a hundred million. Like you shouldn't be walking away from IVF. And I was like, you know, I'm okay. Like [00:08:00] I just, I need a break. And I walked away and a month and a half later I was pregnant. **Michelle:** Wow **Kerry:** intervention. And then nine months postpartum, I also was pregnant again by accident because we thought we had our miracle baby, right? So we were like, okay, whatever. And then I was pregnant again and through the whole journey, I was using yoga for my body, but more so for my energetic health, my mental, emotional health. So when we ended up coming back to the U S and moving to Boston, that was one of the first things I did. I did a prenatal yoga teacher training and I said, Hey, can we do fertility yoga? And she's like,I don't, I'm sure. I have no idea what it is. Tell me what it is. I'm like, either do I, but I'll get back to you. And that's sort of how the fertility yoga started. And [00:09:00] nobody was really doing it eight years ago. It was, **Michelle:** It's true **Kerry:** Like, there was nothing. There was a few people, there was a couple books out on it but I really spent a lot of time explaining. what it was that we were trying to do when we were doing like a fertility focused yoga practice. So that's kind of the story. That's the evolution. **Michelle:** Well, I love the story. I don't love that you went through the suffering through the story But I love the fact that you can it Prove with your story that when people tell you when you hear from doctors that you have one in a million chance or whatever that is, that is not necessarily the truth. That is their opinion. They say it very factually, and I think that that's where it gets very confusing for people. They say it very factually, and I'm not dismissing what doctors say because a lot of times it could be very accurate or they can, but I, I, what I don't love is Is when things are predicted because the body can be [00:10:00] so unpredictable. And it can also show so many signs that defy what it's going to do. So that's where, you know, I say just have an open mind or getting a second opinion is great. So, but I do love hearing those stories because I think when people who are going through that now and are probably listening to fertility podcasts because they want to get. Answers and hear other people's stories and when they hear stories like that it sparks some hope in their hearts So I think that that's really important **Kerry:** Yeah, I often get Students they'll ask me well what was it like right because this is what we want This is people don't want to do IVF if they don't have to and they're like, what was it? what happened and I was like, I cannot tell you I can't tell you a hundred percent that it was the yoga that I was doing or you know All the other lifestyle changes I was doing but something came [00:11:00] together You magically all together at the right time and this baby happened and if I had to choose one word for it, it would be exhale because there was this feeling that my body was no longer having to perform like it felt safe because I wasn't going in for you know, all these procedures and like they're. You know, minimally invasive, but you're still like vaginal ultrasounds and people poking around down there and all the operations that come with it. Anesthesia, all those sorts of things. And yeah, it's, it's a lot. So my body was like, whew, thank you. Thank you. Let me just be. And I think the mental piece was just like that. I wasn't going to go back to it. At least anytime soon. So my, my body was actually believing [00:12:00] me, right? And I don't think it's It's something that you can fake. It's not a time, like I had to go through those two years of IVF and pregnancy loss to get to that point. I don't think that there's we can't just kind of skip over it and be like, Oh, I'm just going to think this now and I'm going to get pregnant naturally. So it's a process. That's it. you know, everybody's journey is different and we just need to give ourselves a little bit of space sometimes to integrate what's going on and give our bodies that exhale, which is so important. Mm. **Michelle:** I love that you say that because actually exhaling longer can simulate your, parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest mode, which many times the majority of us in response to life are in the fight or flight mode. And especially when we feel unsafe. And I love that you use the word safe because when we feel unsafe, Then [00:13:00] we're really not in a creative mode. We don't create even like mentally when we're not feeling safe. **Kerry:** Yeah. **Michelle:** When we feel safe, we're able to create, we're able to let go and our body's able to create, and that's a, it's a state of growth. So I love that you talk about that. And I think that one of the commonalities between yoga and acupuncture, which actually they're related in  many ways. And because it's really about moving the energy because yoga is connected to Ayurveda. Ayurveda has Marma points and yoga is actually a branch of Ayurveda. it's part of the medicine of the physicality of the body and moving the energy. **Kerry:** Yep. **Michelle:** Qigong is sort of the yoga of Chinese medicine. So it's very related. And I think one of the biggest commonalities or one of the ways I think it really works is it's all about the nervous system. **Kerry:** 100 percent it, the nervous system. Like when I, [00:14:00] even these days I, when I'm talking to somebody, I'm like, I'm talking to a person. Yes. But I'm interacting with a nervous system. So with the words that I'm saying my body language or how I look at them, right? Like it, it all is interacting with third nervous system. So how are we working with nervous systems? And when we show up, in fertility world supporting people. For me, the huge part of fertility yoga is how do we harness this parasympathetic, I call it rest, digest and reproduce. That's what I call it, just  **Michelle:** Yeah. I love that. Yes. **Kerry:** Because what it is, it **Michelle:** Yup. **Kerry:** It's what yoga is so good at, sadly, right? Like our Western culture view of yoga has been a little focused almost exclusively on exercise and gymnastic style yoga. But [00:15:00] really traditionally, like you said, it was about the marma. It was about the energetic lines running through you and wherever you find that imbalance, you can work with the energetic field to create balance again. And as you know, the Marma points and acupuncture and pressure points are like following very similar lines and it's powerful. But it's subtle, right?  **Michelle:** Right. it's **Kerry:** explain. Yeah, like it's hard to explain exactly what's happening but it is, it's so powerful and it can really be transformative for how we, how we navigate the journey as embracing that, the quiet side, the quiet side of things. **Michelle:** Yes. And I think that the way we connect with it is through feeling. Right. Because that is ultimately how we do it, but we can't feel or pay attention to what we're feeling when we're distracted all the time by the noise of the world. So we're constantly disrupted by the [00:16:00] noise. It's very disrupting actually for our nervous system. We don't realize it because we're so used to it. You could be used to things that are really not healthy for you and listen, you know, hearing the outside noise. And the loud noises of construction, you know, the normal life, if you're living in the city, the constant sirens and honking, and, you know, those things are actually very taxing on the nervous system. And they put us in a fight or flight mode because our bodies don't really recognize them isn't in the natural world. So it stimulates a more fight and flight response. So having that counter balance with practices like yoga. In calming the nervous system. And what I love about yoga is that it includes breath, all the things that really stimulate the vagus nerve mantra sound. So you're able to tune your vibration and breath. Which is also very calming because if you exhale longer, like there's certain controlled breath [00:17:00] where you're able to control your brain through breath and even movement, somatic energy work and emotions that we can at least much more easily, like that control, but manage with our  bodies.  **Kerry:** Yeah. I couldn't say it better myself, Michelle. That was perfect. I think one thing, right, like we, we, we know that the fertility journey is stressful. We know that life is stressful. We know that we're probably living in a heightened state in our sympathetic more than we, we would like to. And yeah, the yoga piece can just. hit so many things. And one thing we need to remember is that we are created like evolutionarily are, you know, we are more attuned to the stresses, right? For survival. So the loud, the loud noises, it [00:18:00] alerts us to look around and see, Oh, is there something coming for me? Or the bright lights and things like that. Like we're just constantly Like our bodies are looking out to keep us safe all the time. And we're tuned to that, right, that our bodies are naturally tuned to go in that direction. And there's way more stimuli that will take us that way. And then with the other side, the parasympathetic, we have to work harder and more intentionally to go there. And I think that is one of the things that is the hardest is you actually need to train the system to be more fluid. It's not the stress isn't going to go away. Stress isn't going to go away, but if you are training your nervous system to float more evenly back and forth between the two and taking the time to go parasympathetic as best that you can, whether it's with the breath or [00:19:00] with yoga or going for a walk in nature or anything like that You're rebalancing, but we have to make more effort that is just the way we're, we're built. And yeah, like things that will help us be calmer are like dim lights, quietude, support. So like lying down flat. So our body doesn't have to be alert, like even sitting, we have to be alert.  So we might not fall over weight. Unless you're claustrophobic, of course so yeah, there's lots of things that we can add, and yoga does that. Restorative yoga, which is a huge piece of how I teach fertility yoga it, that is what it does. those are the things that we're embracing when we do restorative yoga.  **Michelle:** I love restorative yoga. **Kerry:** Me too.  **Michelle:** Oh, it feels so good. It really just feels so good. And you know what? I love to. I remember taking a yoga class and the teacher after we're laying in Shavasana said, allow the ground to support [00:20:00] you. And I'm like, just the thought of that changes. My experience laying down right now **Kerry:** Yes. Yes I say that too in my yoga classes or I'm like the earth is coming up to hold you and you Let the earth hold you like it's like a two way street. It's like here I am I'm here, but you need to let go into it too. Yeah, it, there's so many wonderful things about restorative yoga. I mean, it's not the only part of fertility yoga the way I teach it, but it is definitely a huge part of what I like to emphasize to help train the nervous system that like,  Oh, Oh, I remember this place of calm and safety, right? And then if we can condition it with at the beginning of every Shavasana or every restorative yoga pose, you do three big, deep breaths, long exhales. The body then starts to put it all together. and [00:21:00] say, Oh, when she takes three big, long, deep breaths, it's time to relax. It's time to release and let go. So we can, there's so much we could do to support ourselves on that level, I think. But yeah, society makes it hard. **Michelle:** Right, so it's almost like a triggering relaxation response To something that you repeat over and over again I always say likeif you do meditation and you burn a specific incense That's clean or something that I'm even in the central oil Like diffuse a specific one every single time you start to meditate you're immediately going to It's almost like pavlov's dog. You're always going to associate it with meditation time and our scent brings us Right there because it's so connected our olfactory nerve, which is really responsible for our sense of smell Is connected to our brains directly **Kerry:** Yeah. And certain smells will be more grounding and, you know, so choose your smells. wisely, I would say, you know, where like,citrus [00:22:00] and high notes are a little bit more stimulating where like the deeper tones like sandalwood and like the earthy green trees, those sorts of things can just be really calming. And then plus the volatile oils that are in evergreen trees are calming to the nervous system. **Michelle:** Yeah. It's not amazing. **Kerry:** You know, so why not put those in your diffuser like use all the tools that you can and and and then things smell good **Michelle:** Yeah.  **Kerry:** like  I just  **Michelle:** who doesn't like that? **Kerry:** Yeah Yeah, **Michelle:** That's awesome. So just take people through, likeif they've never really heard of fertility yoga, like what differentiates fertility yoga from regular yoga  or other types of yoga? **Kerry:** Whoo. So the first I would say are the people that are in the class so it is just really dedicated to holding space for those that are trying to conceive and it can be anybody from, Oh, I'm just [00:23:00] thinking about it, but I, my periods have been a little weird all my life. I just want to get in tune with my body to those who have, you know, eighth round of IVF, like really deep into the journey. So I think the community piece is really important because, People like to be seen and understood. And when we do a check in at the beginning of our classes, even though it's online and there's all these little squares and so on on the Zoom room, people, you see people nodding and oh, and like sending hearts and doing all the things. And just creating community around that as opposed to if you went to a regular yoga class and you walked up to your teacher and said, Oh, by the way, I'm doing a stim cycle right now. They're not going to know what to do with you. They're not going to know how to keep you safe, nor are they going to know how to nurture that part of the cycle. So that's the 2nd piece is. Becoming or recognizing [00:24:00] where you are in your cycle and then matching the energies of that time. So follicular phase is a little more. Woo woo, woo hoo, right? Springtime, and follicles are growing, you have more energy because of the hormones, and an ovulation, you're just like the queen bee, right? So these are the energies that we would say, okay, if you're in the follicular phase, you're gonna do this twist, and so on, and blah blah blah. And then you would say, okay, oh, you're in the luteal phase, things are a little quieter, You might be pregnant, you're in the two week wait, you're post transfer, you're stimming, like all these things, then we need to be a little quieter with the body and give the pelvic area a little bit more space. So we would work with that and do some modifications for that. So really following the cycle. So when I'm teaching, I'm constantly, Okay, if you're in the follicular phase, you're going to do this. If you're in the luteal phase, you're going to [00:25:00] do this. So not only am I keeping people safe, but I'm also like finding the nourishing pieces as well. So it's like,I'm boosting that energy and keeping you safe where you wouldn't be able to do that in a regular class. And then the movement piece. Is really just like slow flow, somatic movement, a lot of it's pelvic centered, but not always because we hold tension and all different places in our body, the chakra system, the energetic system, right? We want it flowing as well as possible for many reasons. So it's lots of ooey gooey, juicy sort of moves in and around the pelvis. So what else did I forget? Oh, and of course the yoga wisdom part of it, right? The energetics, the, the wisdom. So I teach, I'm very thematic when I teach. So I will choose a theme and it may [00:26:00] come from yoga. For example, I did a class or I'm doing a series right now. We're doing an elemental series. So it's five weeks. Perfect. Five elements. Let's do this in yoga anyway, or in Ayurveda. So I'm like, we started with earth, like, why is earth, why is grounding important in fertility, then water and fire and so on. So, yeah, just bringing a new perspective into it, like something to be like, oh, okay, I get it. I get that, I need to be grounded and feel safe for fertility to I don't want to say be boosted, but to be, to feel safe, your body, or to be working at full capacity, whatever is happening in your body, your body needs to feel safe for the fertility hormones. Whew.  **Michelle:** I'm sure there's a lot more even that you might not even realize it, you know, because when we feel safe, I [00:27:00] mean, there's so many things that our bodies naturally do. And our bodies are so intelligent. And it puts us into a growth cycle in general, like our bodies are able to regenerate and repair when it feels like it's getting rest, the proper rest. So, also uh, something that I've noticed, and I do have some patients, it's really interesting because it kind of correlates with jaw tension, but it usually correlates with hip tension. **Kerry:** Hip and pelvic floor, probably. Yeah. **Michelle:** And so that's something that I always think about with fertility yoga is really kind of like getting that area more free because it correlates to the first and second chakra. And the first chakra is really that rooted chakra, the place that we feel safe, and that holds up the second chakra, which is really where our fertility is. So in order to have that active, you know, it depends on that foundation of safety. **Kerry:** Yeah. **Michelle:** So also the blood flow, I'm [00:28:00] sure. **Kerry:** Oh, yeah. Yeah. See, there's so much. I like so many things. But yeah, so that somatic slow flow movement that's pelvic centered, of course, it's like, it's energetic, like bringing energy in and like moving energy, which is really important when we're in our lifestyle of sitting stagnant a lot of the time. And yeah, the blood flow, Like this gentle squeeze and release, right? Like it's constantly bringing in new oxygenated blood into the organs of the pelvis. And I think often in yoga, we don't think, we don't think about the organ level. when we're moving our bodies. And that's what I love about the Ayurvedic yoga. It's more okay, this is happening in your body. let's look at the liver, right? So you're doing side bends and the liver and the spleen and just incorporating more of those, organs, like the systems of the body. It's not just about. the [00:29:00] large muscle groups and releasing tension, which feels great and is lovely and good for energy and marma points and things like that. But we can also work at the organ level and the hormonal level. **Michelle:** Yeah, for sure. And do you also include pranayama? Yeah. **Kerry:** I do breath work. I don't do we're going to do half an hour pranayama every time, but I will integrate breath work or pranayama techniques. When they're suited for the theme or what we're doing with our bodies, sometimes mudra as well. So like, let's, Which is our hand gesture. Yeah. It's like a seal. **Michelle:** again, see, it relates to the meridians and the energetic connections in the body. It's like our body's like a circuit. So putting our fingers together in certain positions will actually link that circuit and, and have it continue. **Kerry:** Yeah, yeah, and [00:30:00] I was never really into mudras  for quite a while of my yoga journey like I was like Oh, yeah, let's I'm gonna stick my fingers together do whatever all the things that you know Yeah, mudra and so on that you see all the time and then someone actually sat down and we we I learned and I experimented with like slowly touching your fingers together and then like you know, do you want to increase something or decrease something, et cetera. And it was actually very profound.  And that energetic piece, I believe it, and it's now Ayurveda as well. And in yoga, energy is the thing that connects. The element that connects body and mind. Right. We're always talking about body and mind, but what is it that's, that's going on to connect those two? It's the energetic body. And pretty soon I am hoping western science will get on [00:31:00] board. It slowly **Michelle:** It is. It's really fascinating. I mean, that's a lot of Dr. Joe dispenses. He's always talking about like energy frequencies, and he talks about how we can connect and he does a lot of scientific research on it actually. So he looks at the brain waves and how they respond to certain meditations and certain energy movements. He does also breath a specific breath. And a lot of people have Kundalini awakenings. That's what it, I mean, he doesn't call it that. He talks about it more scientific and he talks about chakras. He doesn't call it chakras. He calls it energy centers. And it's basically the same thing that we've been, you know, we've been taught years ago, thousands of years ago. And ultimately, I mean, people are having Kundalini rising. They, they see this light, they feel this incredible energy just shooting through their spine from the base. It opens up cause that's where the Kundalini of people haven't really learned about that. They say that there's this [00:32:00] dormant energy at the root of your spine. That's always there, but it's sleeping. And so sometimes  doing. Yep. And when we do breath work or certain types of exercises, it can actually awaken that when that awakens, a lot of people have spontaneous healing, spontaneous remission, and it's really fascinating. So his work is also very much based on quantum physics. And if you look at a lot of the old work and teachings of ancient cultures. They describe pretty much what we're learning as quantum physics. And it ultimately comes down to the fact that we are mostly energy and much, much, much, much less matter than we really think we are. We're like 0. 0000001. It's like a million tons of zeros. And then one, that's how our matter is. And if we actually Take it like the space actually is way more in between the [00:33:00] particles in our bodies and just what we  see. So it's kind of like an illusion. It's really fascinating. So we really are vibratory beings, which is why vibration sound really impacts our bodies. I can nerd. I  **Kerry:** I, I'm going to go, I'm going  to,  **Michelle:** all day long. **Kerry:** I know me too. Well, I, well, there's two things I wanted to talk about, but first I want to talk about space and spaciousness, openness. And I often say to my students, like magic happens in the space. So when we think about the body, We need space in our body, openness, spaciousness, for our body to function, right? between the synapses, there's a little gap, right? It's tiny,  but it's there. And that we have, we need to have space, the womb, let's not forget, that is space. openness, spaciousness, [00:34:00] right? we have to have space in our digestive track and air and things like that to keep it moving. And now I'm like going off the deep end and also Ayurveda of course, right? anything that is moving in our body is the air and ether element and ether is spaciousness, it's openness. And so I often emphasize this idea you in class of creating space. When we move our pelvis, we're creating space. We're opening up, we're releasing blocked energy, if you will, or like stagnant blood, like we are getting things moving. And when things are moving, the magic happens, right? Like the space, we need that spaciousness. Oh yeah. I  **Michelle:** that.  **Kerry:** Yeah. The **Michelle:** Well, it's, it's so cool. I mean, cause, cause that's one of the things that Joe Dispenza does is he first, he almost puts you in an induction with his [00:35:00] meditations and he says space, and he wants you to focus on like this endless space. But the reason why is there's a rhyme. There's a reason for everything that he does is that when our minds focus on space, it actually creates. I don't know how to how he described it. Actually. I mean, I go to so many of his stuff, but I don't remember everything but he said that when you do that, I think it takes you almost to a different mind. Mental frequency brainwave when you start to focus on space. **Kerry:** Well, so Yoga Nidra, which we had talked about previously, but Yoga Nidra, which is like a 5, 000 year old technique that the yogis came up with it is about, it is about that. It is about slowing down your brainwave to delta wave, which is what your brainwaves would be like if you were in deep sleep. And why do we love deep sleep so much? Because that's when we heal, that's when we [00:36:00] process and calibrate and so on. Our organs are doing their cleaning up and all that and it's so important and it's definitely related to fertility that deep sleep state. And Yeah, with Yoga Nidra, we're purposefully going there, but being conscious when we're there. So it's an experience that we would never do. We would never get to that state on our, on our own naturally. Like we'd either be in deep sleep or we wouldn't be in Delta. So this is what I love about Yoga Nidra. And like you were saying, just even the concept of thinking about. Space or expansiveness or you know, you're in an airplane, you look out the window and all you see is infinite space. it never ends. It just goes on and on and on. Right. But yeah, it does, slow us down. It slows down the brainwave so we can get out of the, the gamma or the, you know what we're in right now [00:37:00] talking. **Michelle:** Yes. And it also gives you a sense of freedom. You just feel this like sense of peace and freedom from that space. Cause then you're like, ah, you know, there's just so much, and there's so many possibilities and it's open. And so for people actually who have not heard of yoga, Nidra, can you explain what it is exactly? **Kerry:** Okay. So yoga nidra, like I said, it's thousands of years old. It has so many benefits. I mean, it's so many like deep healing, but also like physical deep healing, but also mental emotional. So it takes, you know, sort of these deeply ingrained, maybe even ancestral patterns that we have, we can start to change those patterns. The body can process all of those things. It's so, it's. It's, it's the Soma we say in yoga, it's the sweet nectar. [00:38:00] It's the nectar that we want for our bodies, especially during fertility, but also to for overall health and longevity. We want to have that sweetness and that nectar in us. And what I use it for, I do a ton of Yoga Nidra in classes. It is It is a progressive deep relaxation technique. It that it has been, Huberman has taken it and called it non sleep deep rest because it's more palpable to Western mind. So it's been an eye rest and all these things. So it's yoga nidra has been taken and repackaged in many different ways for our Western minds. I love the traditional one. Of course, I'm sure you probably do too. And. Yeah, you just, you go  ## Marker **Kerry:** progressively to put your body to sleep. So you go through body parts and you relax those body parts and we can, instill or implant a message. [00:39:00] We call it sankalpa, but you can call it whatever you want. Affirmation, it's not quite the right word. Intention maybe of what deep healing you want to happen. And that's sort of implanted throughout the deep relaxation part. And then yoga nidra is actually a state. It's not the progress of getting there. So yoga nidra is when you are, your body's asleep, you're conscious. But your brain is in these sort of Delta waves and sometimes you get there, sometimes you don't, and sometimes the journey is joyful to, to get there too, right? So it's not oh, you have to get to that state to get any benefit. You're still getting all that parasympathetic work going on. The body feels safe and protected. And most people feel very blissful. afterwards, they often say, Oh, it's like hypnotic that there's like this [00:40:00] hypnosis. And my voice too, I think it's like low and like kind of slow and steady. They're like, Oh, I just hear your voice and I start to relax. Right. So it is a really powerful tool. And if I were to choose one thing, like people say, what yoga pose should I do to help my fertility? If I could choose one thing I would say do Yoga Nidra for at least 40 days straight **Michelle:** Yeah, **Kerry:** and see what happens. I think it's perfect. And I have a program, 40 days, a 40 day program where you have the option to do Yoga Nidra every day if you wanted to, or meditation. So yeah, it's, it's perfect. It's really powerful. really **Michelle:** is so cool. And I'm excited actually to have you as a guest contributor to my fertility hypnosis toolbox. Soon. I know a lot of people, listeners are probably on there, so you guys I'll be very excited. I think by the [00:41:00] time this is out, probably going to  **Kerry:** it. to you. I promise. I will do it. I feel honored  **Michelle:** have time. you have time.  **Kerry:** Yeah, I  know. But I wanted to make it, this is me. I want to make it, I don't want to just maybe take an old recording that, you know, It's, you know, been out there for a while. Like I want to make new things for you and also like, where do we need the yoga nidra the most? Like the two week wait, perfect time, um, after law. So you know, I want to theme them so that there's it hits home for what people need the most. **Michelle:** Well, I'm so grateful for that and I'm grateful for this conversation. I think this is awesome. I can nerd out on this stuff  **Kerry:** too. Me too. Me too. I **Michelle:** I think we're on the same page. **Kerry:** I am **Michelle:** fascinating.  **Kerry:** nerdy about it. And, **Michelle:** Yeah. **Kerry:** and, I mean, I know, I love what you do. All the messaging that you're sending out there to those that are on this journey, I think it's so valuable and, [00:42:00] and needed. we need more voices that are like, here, right? here, **Michelle:**  the ancient stuff, kind of like the bridging that ancient wisdom, that ancient nurturing, really connecting with nature. Cause I know that you also are a big fan of nature and being out in nature. And I think that really just kind of coming home to like our authentic authenticity of, as humans, and sort of the tribalness that, you know, coming home to really our roots and the sacredness that we have also as women. I think that that's there's so much power in that. And I think that a lot of people are thirsting for that. And that's why I nerd out on this. I say, it's you know, I could say my brain nerds out now, but I think my soul nerds **Kerry:** Mm. Oh, I love that. Yes, my soul nerds out on it. That is so good. I love that. I'm gonna use it  if I  can't  **Michelle:** said, well, Carrie, like I, we had such a great conversation also on your podcast, **Kerry:** yes  **Michelle:** guys. Yes. I highly recommend you guys [00:43:00] check out her podcasts. Fringe fertility. So it is definitely like something that I highly suggest. Cause you're going to get more of this amazing conversation on there and she has other guests on there. So yeah, very  **Kerry:** thanks for the shout out for the podcast. Thank you. Yeah. Well, it was a pleasure to be here today and sharing this conversation. I could just do it forever and ever. **Michelle:** for sure. And also before we go, how can people find you? What are the best ways? **Kerry:** sure. So yeah, I have a website Fertile Body Yoga. So it's a virtual yoga studio dedicated to fertility. So fertilebodyyoga. com. That's probably the, the lead in place to find me. I'm on Instagram as well. I'm not a huge Instagrammer though. And lately, I'm feeling like I just might need to walk away because for my mental health. But I do have an Instagram account. It is fertile body yoga there. And yeah, like I'm always doing [00:44:00] some great collaborative workshops and I have a retreat coming up at the end of April. You can cut this out if it's not the right timing, but so an in person retreat in New Hampshire at the end of April with. Two lovely co creators. So that, that's the big thing. That is huge. This has been years in the making and it's  finally  **Michelle:** That's so exciting. Well, congratulations. That's really cool. **Kerry:** Yeah. Thank you. **Michelle:** Awesome. Well, Carrie, this has been a pleasure and we really do have great conversations. I could tell you that we definitely are very aligned in a lot of the way we view the body and really view the fertility journey. And also thank you for sharing your own experience and now sharing your story. Cause I think that a lot of people will be inspired by that as well. So thank you so much. This has been amazing. Perfect.  **Kerry:** Thank you. for having me.[00:45:00] [00:46:00]     

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by Dr. Nayan Patel @aurowellness, a pharmacist, researcher, and glutathione expert, to explore the critical role glutathione plays in fertility and overall health. Dr. Patel shares his journey from traditional pharmacy to developing a breakthrough delivery system for glutathione through the skin, and why this antioxidant is essential for protecting egg and sperm quality. In this episode, you'll learn how oxidative stress impacts fertility, why diet alone might not be enough, and how his innovative technology can support the body's natural detoxification process. Be sure to tune in for this fascinating conversation packed with practical advice and insights for anyone on the fertility journey! Key Takeaways:  Glutathione is the body's most abundant and powerful antioxidant. It plays a vital role in protecting reproductive health by reducing oxidative stress. Most oral supplements don't get absorbed effectively, making Dr. Patel's skin-delivery innovation a game-changer. A healthy lifestyle and cysteine-rich foods are essential for maintaining glutathione levels. Guest Bio: Dr. Nayan Patel @aurowellness is a highly sought-after pharmacist, wellness expert, and thought leader in his industry. Since 1999, he has collaborated with physicians to custom-develop medications and design patient-specific drug and nutrition regimens. As the pharmacist of choice for celebrities, CEOs, and physicians alike, Dr. Patel is recognized for his innovative approach to health and wellness. He is the author of The Glutathione Revolution: Fight Disease, Slow Aging & Increase Energy, which distills over a decade of clinical research on the master antioxidant, glutathione. His patented technology for delivering glutathione topically has revolutionized how the body absorbs this essential molecule. From this breakthrough, he also created the Auro GSH Antioxidant Delivery System, a skincare line designed to deliver antioxidants more efficiently and effectively than ever before. Websites/Social Media Links: Learn more about Dr. Patel's Products Follow Dr. Patel on Facebook For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com  To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility  The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/  Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ ------------------------------- Transcript: # TWF: Dr. Nayan Patel [00:00:00] [00:01:00]    **Michelle Oravitz:** So welcome to the podcast, Dr. Patel. **Dr. Nayan Patel:** Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate the time today. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yes, I'm very excited to talk about what we are going to discuss, which is glutathione. But before we get to that, I would love to get your backstory and how you got into the work that you're doing today. **Dr. Nayan Patel:** Oh my god, absolutely. So start off as a pharmacist, as a career as a pharmacist, and after graduation [00:02:00] from pharmacy school. In Southern California, we were, we were trained to take care of the patient's needs and medications. And very quickly I realized that the medications we have at that time were actually not solving any problem. They were just maintaining people's problems. And very, very early on, you know, you have an aha moment in your life. That oh my god, what what did I just do right? Oh, I'm just not solving any problems So I had to turn my career to a completely different angle no former educations in in making medications or doing compounding or customizing medications that dive into the that practice and 25 years later here we are today and looking back at that and said, what a journey, what a turning point I had, because it shaped me for who I am today. I had the privilege of making medications and design treatment plans and drug plans for so many individuals helping them in their health and wellness journey. And then all [00:03:00] roads led to me to a discovery of a novel technology that can deliver glutathione. And it all started because I was just curious to find out how we can help people solve their own problems instead of trying to figure out medications to solve the problems. Right? Even though glutathione is not a, it's, it's something that body produces internally we're using it as a supplement today, but. And overall my goal was not to do anything and just enhance the body's own ability to to defend itself. And so here we are today it's a very interesting career for me for sure. **Michelle Oravitz:** For  sure. And first of all, just for people listening that don't really know much about glutathione, I'd love for you to share really what it is and also why it could be so challenging to supplement with. **Dr. Nayan Patel:** Absolutely. so the glutathione in a nutshell Is three amino acids coming together in a single chain. It's a one of the smallest form of peptides we have You two amino acid chains, three amino [00:04:00] acid chains, four, five, 30, 40, 50, and thousands of the chains as well. The simplest form, of course, is glutathione, which is about three amino acids coming together. It's by far the most abundant molecule produced in the human body. And if that's produced so much, we ought to know what it's supposed to do for us. And so that's what my research came back for 140 years that we have known about glutathione. Nobody's ever figured out how to actually get inside your body. And so, 60 years ago, 70 years ago, we had a medication approved by FDA to enhance glutathione level. And as of today, that is the only medication that has been approved ever. In the whole, in the whole world, which is N acetylcysteine, which is one of the amino acids that's been used to produce chlorothione. And that's the only thing that has been available for the last 60, 70 years. **Michelle Oravitz:** So let's talk about what so we definitely, that's one of the things that um, I've been doing for egg health and also sperm [00:05:00] quality, cause it's such a high potent antioxidant. And one of the things that I have always suggested is N acetylcysteine because that's the precursor and we knew that that was like the one way that the body was able to produce it. Okay. Thank you. But then there were some supplements that still supplement with glutathione, liposomal, like different ways, which I know are not really shelf stable. So there's always been challenges with that, but before we continue on with that, I'd love for people to hear, like, what glutathione can benefit, how it can benefit the body. **Dr. Nayan Patel:** So, I understand your audience is interested more in the fertility side of the whole thing. So, you're dealing with rather younger individuals overall which is a good sign because younger patients have, everything at their disposal for the body to respond to even the smallest amount of nutrients that they receive. If the same amount of nutrients is given to an 85 year old person, they're not [00:06:00] going to feel anything, right? But if 20 year old person gets a small amount of good nutrition, they respond very, very well. And so I want to make sure that people understand that **Michelle Oravitz:** And also just to kind of mention um, sometimes we have 40 year olds too, that are trying to conceive or like trying to do IVF. So just kind of like, yeah, the whole, **Dr. Nayan Patel:** They're still spring chicken to **Michelle Oravitz:** okay. Okay. It's good for them to hear that. **Dr. Nayan Patel:** I mean, I've helped people in the very, I mean, in the late forties to get babies as well. So it's not something that's not doable. It's just gets incredibly hard after the age of 40. So it's, not that easy to do so, but the glutathione has multiple properties and understanding what glutathione does is, monument in over. in our therapies because with the two things that we do know is it's the ability for glutathione as an antioxidant to detoxify, neutralize all the free radicals in your body. But the second component is also help you detoxify by conjugating [00:07:00] inside your liver with metabolites and chemicals binding to them. So we can basically get rid of it from from your body. So the two functions that we do know That exists today. There's a lot more research still existing that we need to do. So we, we still are urging researchers to go back and use this new technology product and see if we can find out more things that glutathione can do for us. So one two the sperm or the egg quality is dependent on how your body is able to neutralize those free radicals. Those free radicals are actually toxic to all the embryonic membranes and embryos itself and the quality of the sperm and the egg itself. And neutralizing those free radical of body, there's three ways to do that part. One, you take outside products like vitamin C, and vitamin E, and CoQ10, and and C60s, and I mean, methylene blues, I mean, there's a slew of products that says, oh, we are so called antioxidants, right? So that's [00:08:00] category one. The category two of the products are produced endogenously inside your body are enzymes like catalase, supra oxide, puase, SOD, for short glutathione peroxidase, or GPX for short. So these are the enzymes that the body produces to deal with the oxidative stress or the free radicals. Okay, so those are the category one are the category two. The third category is only one product, which is glutathione. And if you look at it, the body produces so much of glutathione, and the effects of glutathione is so powerful, that if you combine the category one, which is all the antioxidants from outside sources, and the enzymes that your body produces, those two combine, Glutathione can surpass the antioxidant properties. And so I want listeners to understand very carefully is that the glutathione needs to be a basic cornerstone in everybody's arsenal. Every medicine chest in the world should have a [00:09:00] bottle says glutathione And in that bottle either you have a product or it have a note saying that eat healthy food to Let your body produce its own glutathione Either way that note has to be there on every medicine chest out there and you're right There's so much noise out there I want to cut to the noise today because if you just put your favorite search engine or your ai robot is going to tell you hey glirathion, there are a thousand different products out there. Choose one You Right. And as a consumer it's very hard to find out what to choose correctly and people hide behind a great technologies that that exists in the world and said, Oh, my, my product uses this technology. So it's the best one in the world. And you mentioned liposome technology, by the way, I just will let, you know, we were one of the very first few people that actually use liposome to produce the first liposomal glutathione. This was 25 plus years ago, right? And we made the liposome because at that time that was the [00:10:00] best technology that existed in the pharmaceutical world. And the doctor that owned the patents for those came to me and said, Hey, we've been very successful in making this for medications. Can you help me make nutraceuticals with it? Like vitamin C and CoQ10 and PQQ and S Xanthine and Glutathione and so on and so forth. And so we made the products for that doctor. And then a couple of years later. Some work, some did not work. Gluten was one of the products that did not work. So I go back and says, why is that working on everybody? The question I always ask is, hey, it helped my girlfriend. How come it's not helping me? Or it helped my sister. Why, how come it's not helping me? What, what, what am I, how am I different than the other human beings? and in reality, only your face is different. Internally, we are identical. A body has the same heart, the same organs, everything is the same, right? So we have not changed for the last 40, 000 plus years, [00:11:00] how to expect that I'm different than my sister, or I'm different than my girlfriend, or whatever, right? Maybe your genomic mixture is different, but your overall organs and organ systems are identical. And so to me, I said, okay, if it works in one person, it should work on everybody. If I get absorption in one person, I guess you should get absorption in everybody. What's the rate limiting factor? Why is it not happening? And so I didn't have answers at that time. I did not know what to do. So next story is that, okay, you know what? I'll make the intravenous form of glutathione. Hey, if I inject him into the bloodstream, my job's done. Again, took me a few months to figure that portion out how to make that part. And yes, This is long story short, we were Well, again, we were one of the first company pharmacy early on in 2001 to make the injectable form of glutathione. Now, very quickly, we realized that the effects of this glutathione was very short, right? And then I looked back in the research and said, there was a study done in 1991 [00:12:00] saying that if once you inject glutathione, it only stays in the body for between four It takes five to 15 minutes and everything gets destroyed or gets, get, get, it gets into the urine and you pee it out, but an hour and a half later, there was an increase of cysteine, which is one of the amino acids that went up in the blood. And so the researchers concluded that the body was breaking down this glutathione and cysteine was getting reabsorbed by the body and cysteine is being used for your body to produce its own glutathione. I said, okay, I don't care how the body makes it. As long as the body has a gluten, I don't care. But the results were very short lived. And I don't know if you know this thing, but back in early 2000s, one of the doctors came to me. I said, Hey, if it's short lived, that's okay. Let me take you to Vegas because when people drink, they deplete their glutathione levels. If it only stays for 15 minutes, I can revive somebody who's passed out drunk of their minds and I can get them. So. He literally took this product to Vegas and [00:13:00] start helping patients. I read scripts for those kinds of things. And again, I have nothing to do with it. I, unfortunately, I was just the supplier and I was just the maker of the product, but we saved so many lives. We helped so many people, but we were, we learned one thing that the action was not long term. And if I want the long term benefits, because if it's one of your patient, if it's one of your listener, who's, who's trying to get pregnant she, or he has to plan for A 30 day cycle, not a 15 minute. Give me some push right now and I'll be done. No, it's a 30 day cycle. You have to plan everything methodically, right? What am I supposed to do from day one to day seven and from day seven to day 14. And after ovulation, what do I do? And after post ovulation, if there's an embryo implantation, what do I do? And so on and so forth. It's a, it's a whole process and your body needs to be clean this whole time. And none of the products were actually getting the results I was looking for. Later on, I found out, this was 2011 [00:14:00] University of Texas in Austin did a study on the liposome technology product of glirathione. And what they found out was same thing that they saw in intravenous form. The body actually breaks down the glirathione, never absorbs a single molecule of it. Absorbs the cysteine and cysteine is later used to produce his own glutathione. And the end story is, it still works. It still works. But people need to understand, just because it works, it does not mean your body absorbed it. And there's a there's a difference between that one and maybe some people may not appreciate that part But I do appreciate that part because in my case i'm dealing with thousands of patients across the country across the globe now And I want to make sure that I want to give assurance to everybody that hey if I give you a glutathione product No matter what it is going to get inside your body [00:15:00] and absorb it And so the liposome technology product was great until now People got a lot of people got results for almost 80 got results from it but not because it absorbs it because the body was able to Conjugate or take the cysteine and make its own glirathione today Today the things have changed now. Why? because 15 20 years ago We started doing gene testing gene snips You Right at that time it was nobody can afford it. I was fifteen twenty thousand dollars for a blood test Oh gosh, no, nobody can afford that today Same test is 200 bucks 300 bucks, **Michelle Oravitz:** Right.  **Dr. Nayan Patel:** right? So now what's happened is that now everybody's doing these gene testings And finally got hey, do I have gene mutation where my body cannot produce gluothione if the answer is yes Then I don't care how much product you take from outside sources, the body is not [00:16:00] able to effectively produce glutathione correctly all the time. And so that to me is one more proof, one more proof that we need a product that your body can actually accept it, incorporate into their own DNA and use it when it needs to. Anyways, I just went off too many tangents no, Thanks very much, interesting. I want you to continue. So how did you find out and, and like how did you discover the product that you have now and what kind of technology does it use and how does it really impact the body? Absolutely. Those **Michelle Oravitz:** nerd in me wants to know **Dr. Nayan Patel:** Yeah. All great, great questions. And I want to, I really want to be an open book. I don't want to hide any information from anybody so that I'll be more than happy to open it up and let everybody know. So earlier when I first started the book. So we had a, we had a couple of barriers. One, what we knew was the body's not going to take any peptides, any amino acid chains to get it to and incorporate it into their own DNA. [00:17:00] What we, what I found out was the body has to make 100 percent of all peptides in the body, the body has to make it. Right. So we knew that I knew that part very early on. So I said, okay, there is no way on earth I'll be able to make a product that your body can use it up. Okay, so now I had to figure out Okay, how do I get this simple tripeptide three amino acid chain peptides into the body? So I first of all, I want to do, I want to create a stable molecule because if I have a stable molecule in my lab, I can work with it. If it's unstable, I don't have time to really experiment on it, right? So my first goal was to make a stable molecule. So that we achieved pretty fast. It took us a couple of years when we got the stable molecule. We took it by mouth. Again what we saw was Sistine went up, so it was not working really, it was getting broken down. We scored into the nose, I said, and if the nose was burning, I said, oh, nobody's going to use this on a daily basis. Of course not, right? It's not a, it's not a fun thing to do. I knew the [00:18:00] injectables was a little bit of an uphill battle because it requires FD approval and all those things. I said, you know what? The only route that was remaining was skin route. And of course, skin is a physical barrier, right? So it's a physical barrier that I have to overcome. And the physical barrier is, is a particle size barrier. So I had to reduce the particle size so small, It can get through the cracks or the pores of your skin and get inside your body. So that was the first challenge I had, which we were able to crack the code in about a couple of years. We had to take this peptides, twist it in such a form that doesn't get broken apart and gets a small, you know, like when you twist the towel, you know how it gets smaller and smaller and smaller, but you twist enough, it can get really small. And so that's what we did with this molecule. It forces microscopically, and we were able to reduce the particle size to much smaller. We got to the skin. The bigger challenge is this glutathione is inside your cells. So now the issue is that, [00:19:00] okay, we release a particle size, we get through your skin. Now, so the physical barrier, we, we all work in the physical barrier. The second was a chemical barrier. Because the cell wall is a lock and key. Hey, you say the magic word and the castle opens up and you can go inside. But if you don't say the magic word, the castle will never open for you. So the question then becomes is that what does the body needs? What does the cell needs to survive? All your mitochondria, the energy powerhouse in your body is in the cells, right? And that to produce the energy, what you need is carbohydrates and sugars. I cannot give you sugars because I give you diabetes and we already have an epidemic of diabetes in the United States across the world nowadays so I said, okay, how do I get a polysaccharide sugar type molecule? That doesn't doesn't do anything about the sugar is completely inert FDA has tested it out and it's completely safe to give to anybody pregnancy no pregnancy children's everybody And can I use that molecule? So we found [00:20:00] dextrin technology. This was a technology that has been out for about 20, 30 years now, but there are no good medications in the world. As even in today's state, there's not too many medications out there. People are still dabbling around. those technology products. And so we use the technology to literally, instead of working with medications, we start working with glutathione. We do the sugar molecule and stuff inside with glutathione. It's like, do you need M& Ms? Do you need **Michelle Oravitz:** No, not anymore,  **Dr. Nayan Patel:** Not anymore,  Okay, Good. Good. Do you, do you eat M& Ms for the peanuts or for the chocolate? **Michelle Oravitz:** I guess well, I used to like the chocolate ones when I was really, really little. And then later on peanuts, **Dr. Nayan Patel:** Exactly. But the thing is, you don't eat M& Ms for peanuts, you eat M& Ms for the chocolate. But the peanut inside, if you get a peanut, do you spit it out? Or you know what? It's not so bad. I can use it up. **Michelle Oravitz:** It's like I compare it to like, you know, the being able to take those pill things for your dogs where you put it inside a treat and get the dog to eat it. And[00:21:00]  **Dr. Nayan Patel:** That's exactly right, right? So I took the carbohydrate, the sugar molecule, stuffed the glutathione inside, you know, so the body, when the carbohydrate hits the cell wall, the cell goes, oh, I can use this up. Right? And sucks it in. Inside is glutathione. But he goes, well, I can use this up too. It's not something new to me, so I can use this up too. Right? And so now, it's like you somebody tells you that, hey, I have a billion dollar coming to you, but it's coming in the mail. Well, that's not helping me right now, but if it hits my wallet, gosh, I can spend it today. Right? So, you can check the mail, it's in a transit, but until it hits the wallet, you cannot do anything about it. Saving glutathione, if the glutathione is in your body, but it's not inside your cell, the, the cell says that, okay, I need the glutathione, but it's way out there. It's not in my cell. I cannot use it up. Here we got inside the cell directly. [00:22:00] When we did that part, like magic just happened. All of a sudden, the body has a product. The body needs it. The money's in the wallet right now. I can go spend it today. And the body can actually use the glutathione immediately To start doing what? Two things that we know of as of right now. One is start neutralizing all the free radicals. That's number one. Number two, start getting my liver cleaned up and start detoxifying all this, all this metabolism in my system. When you do those things up, all of a sudden your whole body or your temple, your, your the sanctuary in your body starts getting healed from inside, starts getting cleaner. And all of a sudden the, main thing, which is our sperm and the eggs. Are not been invaded or not been attacked by this toxic chemicals. **Michelle Oravitz:** Right? **Dr. Nayan Patel:** And so that's, there's, there's my technology. We discovered this in 2007, as you can imagine 2007 it was too far [00:23:00] ahead of the game. There was nothing in the world that exists something even close to this thing. And so there was no studies being done. There's no research articles published. There's nothing out there in the world that I can fall back and say, Hey, go ahead and use it safe. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah.  **Dr. Nayan Patel:** do that part. So it took me another 13, 14 more years to literally do everything that I can do on my own. I have no funding. I did everything on my own. I put every single thing I have back into this to basically research it out. Apply for the patents, all my work that I did. I, in fact, I published a book about three, four years ago. All the work I did for the first 13 years, I put in a book. I said, Hey. Guys, here's read it, right? This is this is all my work and it's just success stories that I've given to patients and clients and And found friends and family that uses product and and see how how much benefit they got in different areas of life right if you're an athlete versus if you have metabolic disorders versus you have [00:24:00] metabolism, defects if you're on the spectrum because spectrum patients have some sort of Metabolism issues of detoxification issues that they cannot clear the toxins out of the body And they are the autism or aspergers or whatever they got right? So i've all the stories and I have some stories about horses and and dogs and how how they it helped them as well in their in their wellness, thing as well as anyways So that's all the stories in the book the glutton revolution. That's my book. But after everything got done We had a pandemic **Michelle Oravitz:** Right. **Dr. Nayan Patel:** the product was not even released yet You And the pandemic comes around and I've been begged by all the doctors around the country. I said, oh my god Please give us the access to the glutathione because I was working with doctors So they knew about this product, but none of the consumers knew knew about it And so that's when we actually did a soft launch. We didn't have a bottling. We didn't have a boxing. We have nothing at that time No website, we had a website, but it was like a nothing nothing crazy So 2021 [00:25:00] was the first launch of the product now we are here today, but, so anyways, so thanks for asking me this question, but I just wanna make sure the story **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, no, I love the story because I think also I have very, very smart listeners, I'll be honest, like with a fertility journey, they are so educated. You know, it's such a motivator to really educate yourself. And a lot of times if I work with people in person online, I see the most educated people, they really know a lot. So I wanted to kind of have a background to really explain how the process works. Cause I feel like it's very empowering for them. And the two things that I know, like an N acetylcysteine. So that works as a precursor to get the cysteine. And then from that gets the body to produce glutathione. And then your product works through the skin and then is enveloped by the carbohydrates, right. Or the yeah,  **Dr. Nayan Patel:** is, it, it's, it's a polysaccharides is what we call 'em. And it's embedded inside that one. It's the, analogy I can [00:26:00] give you is that, hey if you need money, there's two ways to get money. One is I'll give you a job. You work at it. And you, you share your trades and then for the reward, I'll give you money. The second part is here's the money in your wallet. I'm not going to give you too much of it. I'm just going to give you enough to survive the rest. You still have to go make it yourself. Right. And so the second part, I give you enough to survive. Your body says to make the rest of the glutathione from the foods you eat and things like that. but a lot of people need, just need a little edge over everybody else. So I just give them extra glutathione to make sure that they are able to use up right now, because when you have a problem today, if you need the money today, and if you give you a job, I said, that's good, but I need the money now. I don't need money two weeks from now.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah.  **Dr. Nayan Patel:** And so that makes it very, very useful. And in, in certain cases, I'm not saying that is good for everybody. What I am saying that is good for everybody, but the product may not be good for everybody,[00:27:00]  but having a healthier lifestyle, having the cysteine rich diet. Is absolutely a must I don't care what what age you are, right? That is absolutely a must So if you do that, if you have a healthy lifestyle, that means avoid the toxins that depletes the glutathione levels Having the diet that consumes that gives all the amino acids those two things combined Will will give you a fighting chance for long periods of time where you don't need any supplementations The supplementation is very good for people that need extra help or temporarily And then once your body gets under control then you can stop it, too **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. And then, so the couple of questions that come to my mind is you know, I'm, I'm a, also a big believer, obviously it sounds like it's doing something, but I'm also a big believer that like nature has a very a method for its madness. And I'm wondering, is there a reason why it's under such lock to allow um, glutathione in by itself, rather than having the body produce it? It was just [00:28:00] kind of like something that came to my mind.  **Dr. Nayan Patel:** know.  **Michelle Oravitz:** you were mentioning that. **Dr. Nayan Patel:** and you're right. I mean, the body is, is equipped to deal with, because any peptides that you, that the body can accept from outside sources can actually get embedded into your DNA. And so having the purity, what if you give somebody else's DNA inside your body? **Michelle Oravitz:** Right. **Dr. Nayan Patel:** Wow. Right. Think about it. Think about it. You're injecting somebody else's DNA. Some, some of the protein from something else that is not made by humans. The body is going to start going to cycle, react to it and say, Oh my God, what if well, we have vaccines right nowadays. What are the vaccines are proteins by outside of viruses, right? How about we use those embedded into our own DNA? So that's the, that's a scary part to me. And so that's the reason why a body does not allow anything from outside sources to get inside your body. It's very [00:29:00] very protective. Glutathione we do know is produced endogenously. It's inside your body, making sure that the glutathione the raw materials that we use Is of the highest highest quality. I would say 99. 99 percent pure is what we need. Otherwise, we just going to have a chance of making sure we have a chance that we can harm our body. And so just so for when I, when I first heard that in 2007, I quickly, I realized that I have to bring manufacturing in house. I can't trust anybody to do this for me. It literally took me eight years to build my own plant out small plant But just enough so that I can control every single thing making sure the water that I use is the highest quality Everything that goes inside is for the highest quality products. That's why I had to Ensure that so I brought everything in house. It was too costly to make it It's still too costly to make it and to [00:30:00] reduce the cost. I had to make sure that I I am, I'm going straight from the manufacturers to the consumers and there's no too many middlemen in between to reduce the cost down. And so we've been doing whatever it takes and you're right. The by doesn't take it. So having that technology to bypass this is somehow empowering that we can do that part. But it's scary is that we can use the same technology to, to hurt somebody too. **Michelle Oravitz:** Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And thank you for answering that. And also, my question is, what have you seen in the research? Like, what have you seen short term, long term, because you, it sounds like you guys have been working with us for a long time, in the response of people's bodies and conditions. **Dr. Nayan Patel:** Absolutely. So just FYI of a human body gets everything gets, gets redone every 30, 60, 90 to 120 days. That means you get new cells in your bodies all the time.[00:31:00]  The body is constantly constantly making new cells, better cells so that you can rejuvenate yourself from inside out, right? So the body is, it's like you're having a house, constantly remodeling your house from inside all the time, right? So no matter what happens, if I make a hole in the wall, you know what, a few months from now it'll be a brand new wall again. I don't have to do anything, just have to wait and don't make it further damage the wall, right? And it'll be repaired by itself. So the body repairs itself. The issue is that. The glutathione can actually improve the repair process to the point where it repairs better. And you can feel the effects much, much faster. Now certain organs take them 12 to 18 months to repair. For example, liver, it takes a long time to repair. So, any, if you're looking for benefits for liver health that may take anywhere from 12 to 18 months. Even though if I have doctors I work with all the time and the doctor says, Oh, my, the liver function tests are coming normal. I said, just because the tests have [00:32:00] no, that doesn't mean the liver is normal, right? I guess you're right. Absolutely right. So they do ultrasounds. They do scans and things like that to figure that portion out. But again, it takes them 12 to 18 months to fix it. At a short term people when they have have issues with oxidative stress. The biggest issue I've seen is these are, these are people that have some gene mutations that cannot produce, they cannot conjugate and make enough glutathione. They have this brain fog that has been lingering on for decades, decades, right? For 10, 20 years sometimes. Of course, these are older people. These are not 20 year olds. And so they've been struggling and All of a sudden, they use a gluotide and about 15 minutes later, they can just see the, just brain just opens up. Now, it is not a, it's not a something to improve your memory. It's not this magic pill that you see in the movies. It's here, one pill, my brain just fires up and I'm, I can think and I can do anything I want to do. It's not that pill, it's a **Michelle Oravitz:** but I'm sure it can prevent things like Alzheimer's or things like that. Mm hmm, [00:33:00] mm **Dr. Nayan Patel:** well, Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and things like that as well. But in the short term, when people see the brain fog clears up, all it's doing is reducing oxidative stress. **Michelle Oravitz:** hmm. **Dr. Nayan Patel:** If you need to reduce oxidative stress, so I've seen results as much as 5 to 15 minutes. Up to two to four weeks in most individual And two three to six months in I would say 99 of the people they see some improvement in their health and wellness and they're most of them are working with the physicians So they're doing some blood tests before and after the doctors are saying what the heck you're doing I don't know what you're doing, but keep on doing it. It's very good for you. So  **Michelle Oravitz:** That's really interesting. And then also, if you were to get, you know, outside source of glutathione, the body feels the glutathione, will it make an impact on the body's own production of glutathione now that it feels that it has more. **Dr. Nayan Patel:** Absolutely. And the thing is [00:34:00] the the biggest concern that people have that hey What if if I take glutathione from outside sources with my body shut down his own production? And yes and no, I think the body probably may reduce the production, it probably will not shut it down because keep in mind when we're comparing, because most people have been burned by, hey, if you take steroids, your body will, it'll blow up like a balloon and because the body is not able to make its own regular, its own steroid production, which is true, which is 100 percent true. endocrine system is tightly regulated from your gonadal hormones, your pituitary and your ovaries and your testes and to the brain, which is the pituitary the hypothalamus, right? So they both work together, your brain tells your ovaries to produce the hormones, the ovaries produce the hormones, the ovaries cannot produce the hormones, The brain is going to keep on sending signals. Can you do more? Do more? Do more? Because I can't do anymore. I'm already tired. I'm burnt out. I'm just, I'm shriveled up. I can't do anymore. Right? Versus if you [00:35:00] take a hormone from outside sources, it affects straight to the pituitary. And the pituitaries will shut down and say, Hey, no more producing hormones. You got too much. I don't know where it's coming from,  but  **Michelle Oravitz:** like a thermostat,  **Dr. Nayan Patel:** Right? It's a negative feedback. But when it comes to glutathione, glutathione is not triggered by any brain or hypothalamus. Glutathione is taking three amino acids together, two enzymes, two molecules of ATP, which is energy, and one molecule of NAD for electron transfer. All this to come together to make glutathione. Right? Now this same energy, ATP energy, NAD energy is being used in thousands of chemical reactions that happens every single day. So keep in mind, if your body does not have to produce glutathione, your energy is never wasted. It's used to do other reactions all day long. But the good thing is that glutathione is by far the most abundant molecule produced in the human body. [00:36:00] And after a couple of weeks or so, the body is saying, hey, everything is not working great. Now for two weeks later you see some increasing energy because now the energy is is Getting excess and your body goes. Oh my god. I have excess energy now all of a sudden. It's not a car It's not a caffeine type energy It's not like jumping up and down type of energy, but you do feel good from inside out Right. You do feel good. And all of a sudden you pick up other habits, walking, jogging, cycling, you know, or just going out and just, you just have this, this energy inside your body that you want to do other things. You just feel alive from inside. And so, and then when you stop the glutathione, the body says, okay, oh, should we have, we need more glutathione. So the first energy goes towards producing glutathione, but if you have enough glutathione, that energy has been used to produce other peptides. Keep in mind, a muscle needs what? 6, 100 amino acids coming together. Takes a lot of energy to produce muscle fiber. So if you're not [00:37:00] using the energy to produce glutathione, hey, hopefully it goes to producing more muscle mass. I'm hoping for that. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. . And is there like a limit on how long you should take it? you know, is there a limit that you have? **Dr. Nayan Patel:** So, I do know that your body needs glutathione until the last day you die. So, until that day, you have to take it. After you're dead, I'm not sure if your body needs glutathione or not. So, that's a joke. I'm sorry. But your body needs glutathione to survive. Every single day. So the needs are going to be the endless. the better question to me is that do I need to supplement every single day of my life? That's a way better question for me to answer is to that that question came to me in my mind long time ago as well. And so what I have found out is that the body needs glutathione. to survive. Your body has the ability to produce glutathione, plenty of it on a daily basis. And what I found in [00:38:00] my research that up until about the age of 30, there is no need for any supplementation. None. Improve your diet, reduce your exposure to toxicities. You should be fine. **Michelle Oravitz:** Right?  **Dr. Nayan Patel:** Between 32, 35, if you have a healthier lifestyle, don't drink alcohol. Don't expose yourself to heavy levels of toxicities. Don't do sunbathing a whole lot. And having a very clean diet, you might still be okay. 35 to 40, I would say 80, 90 percent of the people may need to supplement gluathione, over 40, I have yet to find somebody who has normal levels of gluathione and so the question that I ask is, Hey, what's Well, my mom in the fifties and sixties never had to use a gluathide, and she lived for long periods of time, so why is it today, right? But keep in mind, at that time, sixty years ago, maybe the world population was three billion, now we are eight billion population. And who are the biggest polluters in the world? Is it the [00:39:00] animals or the humans? **Michelle Oravitz:** Humans. **Dr. Nayan Patel:** Humans. Animals don't even wear clothing. They don't even do anything. They don't have to build any houses and, and destroy the world. They just live, enjoy the world and leave the world the way it was when they came in. Us humans wants to fly, wants to build a hundred story buildings and wants to drive cars and wants to do all kinds of things. So we are the biggest polluters and the pollution has literally what more than doubled in the last 60 years. So if we say that the, the modernist society is polluted, the answer is absolutely yes. And it's not, it's not like we are turning the tables and we're going on the other way around. So like it or not, nobody's willing to give the modern day conveniences at this point. They don't, they're not going to do that part. So the question is that yes, Maybe my mom did not need gluten until the age of 50 or 60 [00:40:00] maybe. That's dropped down to 30, 35 or 40 at this point. And I'm scared for my kids because they may need glutathione at the age of 25 That's that's not a good thing to do, but it's just just telling us that our memory is getting more and more polluted and we need to figure out every single thing that we can do to enhance our body to stay clean from inside. **Michelle Oravitz:** And is there a benefit to taking N acetylcysteine as well as the, the skin,  um, supplementation?  **Dr. Nayan Patel:** okay, so NAC or cysteine so there are about eight essential amino acids that you have to take every single day Cysteine is not one of them Cysteine, Glycerine, and Glycine. Those are the three amino acids that's used to produce glutathione. Those three are not even in the part of the eight essential amino acids. So if you take cysteine and the glutathione topical version that we have, the cysteine is not going to be used up to produce glutathione at all. It may be used up for some other components, but not for [00:41:00] glutathione. I would suggest that if you're doing that part, then save your money and just improve your diet, right? If you have the money, I would rather you invest in those eight essential amino acids. Those are much better to do that, like Lucid and Proline. And so those are much more better to for you to use it on a daily basis. I'd rather you spend the money on that than to spend the money on the SysTeam. **Michelle Oravitz:** Got it. And then what are some of the foods and, that you would recommend for the glutathione diet? **Dr. Nayan Patel:** Michelle, I've been told not to advise people on diet **Michelle Oravitz:** Okay. Thank you **Dr. Nayan Patel:** is worse than the religion and politics. So I'm going to tell you one thing. All right. So everybody has a, has an AI robot. Everybody has access to AI robot. Go type it up.  Sistine rich foods. **Michelle Oravitz:** Sistine Richards **Dr. Nayan Patel:** You're going to get your vegan choices, vegetarian choices, carnivore, [00:42:00] paleo, Atkins. I don't know what a longevity diet. I don't know. Don't die diet. I, I don't know. There's so many diets out there right there right now. All these diets are going to be satisfied if you just type in the word system food and see what food are you willing to eat and make and have a variety of foods from that list that you consume on a daily basis. Like what's in that list? I, you know, on an everyday basis, every single day.  **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah **Dr. Nayan Patel:** in there, asparagus in there, there's oysters and chicken and turkey. And I mean, you can name it, right? There's so much stuff is in there that you can consume. It's not a small list, right? But you have to make it a part of the routine. But that's just one thing. That's just one thing. The second part, which is utmost important, is limit. Limit your exposure to toxicities, **Michelle Oravitz:** yes true [00:43:00] Oh, **Dr. Nayan Patel:** pure. Right is important and because of that guess what my technology I even dove into the skincare as well because because most of my customers were females. Well now they are like 50 50 today But at that time all my customers female and they look at the technology and say hey Can you give me all the antioxidants for my face as well? I said sure. It's that's easy, right? So I just went got all the antioxidants and I said, okay Put it squeeze the size right so I can shove a whole bunch of stuff into this couple of products And so I have like seven or eight different antioxidants in full concentration and some are even more in like two creams right And then two of the serums I give like 10x of what you what you get from any of the products in the marketplace today so I give you a vitamin c and glutathione in a very high concentration to your skin Gets your skin completely disperses really really fast and gets gets to the all the skin in your whole body And so anyways, so I did that [00:44:00]  **Michelle Oravitz:** if you do that, To your face, is that the same thing, the same technology that will get glutathione in your cells? So it's kind of like two in one? **Dr. Nayan Patel:** So it is, it is it's the same technology, but what we have to done is we have to identify the speed and how deep I want to go inside. So the skincare is more  for,  **Michelle Oravitz:** different. It's more  **Dr. Nayan Patel:** yeah, but I would always say that if you're using both that do not double up, do not double up, right? If you're using both that your skincare routine, as is the way it's been introduced to you, and then just add on the, the top of glue that just once a day. **Michelle Oravitz:** I  **Dr. Nayan Patel:** And you, and you still get the, I mean, you get full benefit. That's the ultimate Longevity hack is what I call them, right? Cause the beauty is inside out. The ultimate longevity hack is you do the full skincare routine and just do once a day of the glutathione. If you don't do the skincare routine, just the glutathione twice a day is, is, is, is what you need. That's an ultimate bio is, [00:45:00]  **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, that's great.  **Dr. Nayan Patel:** I have. **Michelle Oravitz:** Well, listen, I mean, I'm curious. I'm sure people listening are very curious, how can we find out more? How can we buy this stuff and get ahold of it? **Dr. Nayan Patel:** Absolutely. So, my website is oral wellness. com. A U R O wellness. com. Go to the website. There is a two part on the top is skincare and wellness. Otherwise you can go to oral skincare. com as well. The same thing. My urge is that if you are any of this patients that is Not able to give up monitor conveniences or you may suspect that you may have low glutathione levels I would probably strongly suggest you try it for 30 days It is,  we do offer a hundred percent, a hundred percent money back guarantee. We don't charge shipping and handling. We'll refund you everything, right? We will, we will do full refund of everything. Cause I just want people to try it out. And once you try it for 30 days and if you see slight benefit of [00:46:00] it then it's the best thing that can happen to you for the rest of your life. It's one thing that I have, I have customers for now for 17 years, since the first we discovered this product. That will, that's like a, it's a go to product in the arsenal. It's like, it's always there. And I'll tell you, I'll give you another analogy right now, because I wanted people to really understand what this is, because as you age, your body is deteriorating, is diseased, and it is, is, is breaking down, right? It's like. You go to your, when you go to your home you leave your door open. And as soon as I leave the door open, the dust, the wind blows the leaves inside. And so what you do is you bring your vacuum out or your, or your broom out and start sweeping and guess what? There's more dust and more leaves coming out. Right? So what do you do? I'll say, Oh my God, I forgot to close the door. Once you close the door, you can literally clean the whole house from inside and make [00:47:00] it brand new again. Right? Oxidative stress, oxidative stress, production of free radicals is the opening of the door analogy in your body. Oxidative stress is not doing anything, but it's allowing every single thing to come inside your body. And destroy the body from inside and unless you block that and close it up You cannot buy your body does not heal from inside, right? So the glutathione is actually closing the door is actually closing the door and then allowing your body to what to start getting? Cleaned up from inside and start repairing itself inside So at the bare minimum at the bare minimum if you do for four months You're going to have every single day Products in your body, every single cells, organs, every single thing you're going to have allowed them the chance to [00:48:00] regenerate self. **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah.  **Dr. Nayan Patel:** after four months, yeah, it's after four months, it's like game over. So I have people that even today's they, they said, I know what I have to do. It's just that I just keep on forgetting. I said, that's okay. You know, close the door first. You know, it's, it's no fun sweeping and wrecking your house every single day. **Michelle Oravitz:** No, no, it's not. I agree. Wow. This is amazing. Really, really fascinating information. I just love the fact that you have a background from, from ecology. I mean, that you understand it really from the inside out and that you were able to apply technology and really understand it from your perspective and that you had these ideas to create a product like that, that's really cool. **Dr. Nayan Patel:** and I, I wish I had this product when we were going through our early on in my life because my wife had a hard time conceiving and it took us nine years to have a first son. Yeah, and it's not that we were trying for nine years. It's just that [00:49:00] after marriage, it took us nine years to have the first son and we only tried for maybe about a couple of years before. And then. We did, I think we did one, one, I think two IVF cycles. And I said, this will be the last one. We'll never do it again because I know the damage it causes to the human body. And I wasn't the one suffering, but I know it was going to destroy her body for the rest of her life. So I was not willing to put up with make her go through the process, even though it was like something that is so blissful to you, right? When you have a kid. So, yeah, we did all the traditional because I was pharmacist. I knew I'll do all the hormone therapies. I did all the hormones correctly. Everything was just fine, but she just was not producing any follicles. The follicles were there, but they're not producing any eggs. I knew that it was oxygen stress, but at that time I had nolu thi product in me. And So uh, it is just so unfortunate, right? But today you have that if you are a young person that is trying to conceive you have this thing, [00:50:00] at the very least, just use it for a few months. It gives it by the chance. And and, and hopefully you have a healthy baby. That's, that's always my **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, that's the hope. Yes. And sending all of that good, good energy and good thoughts to everybody listening. So thank you so much, Dr. Patel for coming on. This is a great conversation. I will have all the links to the website and everything in the episode notes for people to view if they want to stop, stop the car and then go look, but thank you so much for coming on today. This is a great conversation. **Dr. Nayan Patel:** Appreciate your time today. It's my pleasure to be here today. Thank you. [00:51:00] [00:52:00]     

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by world-renowned fertility specialist and Harvard-awarded scholar, Gabriela Rosa @dr.gabrielarosa, founder of The Rosa Institute. Gabriela has dedicated her career to helping couples overcome infertility, miscarriage, and failed treatments to create healthy families. With over 20 years of experience, her Fertility Breakthrough Program™ boasts a remarkable 78.8% success rate, even for couples who had previously faced long-standing fertility challenges. In this episode, Gabriela explains why infertility is a symptom of deeper health issues and shares how addressing these root causes not only improves fertility but also enhances overall health. She also delves into her innovative, evidence-based approach that combines modern science and natural medicine to deliver transformative results. Be sure to tune in for this enlightening conversation packed with practical advice and hope for anyone navigating the fertility journey! Key Takeaways: Infertility, miscarriage, and failed treatments are symptoms of deeper health imbalances. Gabriela's Fertility Breakthrough Program™ has helped thousands of couples worldwide overcome complex fertility challenges. Addressing the root causes of infertility leads to better reproductive outcomes and long-term health benefits. Low AMH does not mean no baby—natural conception is possible with the right interventions. Fertility challenges are clues pointing to underlying health issues that need attention. Thorough testing and a personalized approach are key to addressing unexplained infertility. Integrating natural and modern medicine optimizes fertility outcomes and overall health. Ignoring infertility as a symptom can increase the risk of chronic illnesses like diabetes and cardiovascular disease. Fertility is a whole-body process—issues with egg or sperm quality often stem from broader health concerns. Community and support are essential for navigating the emotional challenges of infertility. Guest Bio: Gabriela Rosa @dr.gabrielarosa is a world-renowned fertility specialist, author, and Harvard-awarded scholar. She is the founder of The Rosa Institute and creator of the Fertility Breakthrough Program™, which has transformed the lives of over 140,000 couples in 110+ countries. Gabriela's work focuses on addressing the root causes of infertility using an evidence-based approach that combines modern science with natural medicine. With extensive training in reproductive health, naturopathy, and public health, Gabriela is passionate about empowering couples to achieve their dream of parenthood while improving their long-term health and well-being. Websites/Social Media Links: Website: https://fertilitybreakthrough.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FertilitySpecialistGabrielaRosa  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.gabrielarosa/  Fertility Breakthourgh Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fertilitybreakthrough/  Fertility Breakthourgh Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rosainstitutefertilitybreakthrough  For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com  To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility  The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/  Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/  Transcript: [00:00:00]  [00:00:04] [00:01:00]  [00:01:47] ​ [00:01:47] **Michelle Oravitz:** Welcome to the podcast, Gabriela. [00:01:55] **Gabriela Rosa:** Thank you so much, Michelle. It's so lovely to be here. [00:01:58] **Michelle Oravitz:** So lovely meeting you. We just [00:02:00] had a really nice pre chat and I would love for you. I always like to hear an origin story. I would love to get your background and how you got into the work that you're doing right now. [00:02:11] **Gabriela Rosa:** And sure. Look, I think if for me, I've been doing this work since 2001. So it feels like a very long time, probably because it is. when I start seeing my patience, babies graduating from university. I'm [00:02:23] **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh my God. That is crazy. Cause you look so young. [00:02:27] **Gabriela Rosa:** Oh, thank you. It must be all those herbs and nutrients, you know, but, it's funny because like, that's exactly last two years ago, I had this experience of like seeing, literally seeing one of my babies graduating from university and thinking, Oh my God, where did the time go? [00:02:44] You know, like, that's just crazy, but, but it's, it's been wonderful. It's been a wonderful journey. don't know that I have. In a way, I think that, you know, we, as, Steve Jobs says, you can't, or said, you can't join the [00:03:00] dots in advance. You know, sometimes you can only join the dots in retrospect. And as I look back, I think, you know, I don't know that I planned to be where I am, but in a way I plan to be exactly where I am, if you know what I mean. [00:03:14] It's a very strange kind of [00:03:17] **Michelle Oravitz:** It found you. [00:03:19] **Gabriela Rosa:** certainly found me, that's for sure. and it was really through my experiences with patients that That it shaped the specific area that we focus on because we really only treat couples who typically have been experiencing infertility, miscarriage, failed treatments, and really have, you know, have tried everything and nothing has worked like that's who we treat. [00:03:41] And it certainly didn't start out that way. My, passion when I first started doing what I do was that I wanted to make sure We had a contribution to making the world a better place, one healthier baby at a time. And I really had in my young mind that I wanted to help as many people who wanted to have a baby to [00:04:00] prepare, to do preconception preparation, to be the healthiest version of themselves because we know epigenetics matters. [00:04:06] We know that the way in which, you know, prospective parents go into a conception attempt and certainly conception in general will. either increase or improve the health of a child or, decrease it, you know, there is no zero net some kind of effect. There's only ever always positive or negative effects. [00:04:26] Neutral effects are generally kind of weighed down to negative effects. So for me, and I'll talk more about that if you want to, but, you know, for me, it was that whole idea that I wanted to ensure That we were making that contribution. And it was interesting because although some people were really interested in being the healthiest that they could be, most people were not, most people are like, Oh, this is just too much work. [00:04:50] Let's just start trying. And if we have a problem, then we can do something about it. And that was never really my attitude towards it because the way that I see certainly the [00:05:00] work that we do. There is another layer to it, which is not so much about the physical and the functional. Although, of course, we address that our program has a 78. [00:05:09] 8 percent success rate for people who previously, you know, were infertile, lots of failed treatments and all of those things. And we validated those results through my masters in public health at Harvard. So we know that, you know, what we're doing certainly makes a difference. But. It really, for me, the undercurrent and the underlayer of why I wanted to do this work was actually for self actualization of the patients who came to us, you know, it was for really being able to reach one's full potential in terms of health and how that impacted other areas their life. [00:05:43] And that's how I wanted to work. And the people who were coming in for preparation really were not into that kind of work. And so I started to see that the people who are more in alignment with the work that I wanted to do and the legacy that I wanted to leave in the world were the people who [00:06:00] were having difficulty. [00:06:01] And so I started to kind of focus more and gravitate more towards, you know, those, challenging experiences and how to help people overcome them and, Transition and almost kind of transmute what they were going through. And about five or six years into it all, I had a patient who really changed the trajectory of my whole career. [00:06:25] And she had been referred to me by a friend who thought that she should have a conversation with me. She had been infertile for 10 years. She had done multiple failed IVF cycles at the time. And even though now I talk about that case and it's kind of like, Every day in the office for me at the time, it was the first time that I was seeing that. [00:06:44] And so I was like, Ooh, I don't know that we can help that kind of sit or that I can help that kind of situation. You know, I don't know that there's much that I can do, but she was really insistent and quite adamant. I actually talked to her the other day and told her this story because she didn't even know. [00:06:57] Yeah. And she was like, Oh my God, that's so [00:07:00] amazing to know. But you know, it's, what I ended up happening was that because she was so insistent at doing something, she said to me, she said, look, it's going to be my last try. I'm not going to do any more treatment after this. You know, I'm getting older. I don't want to continue this. [00:07:15] It's been long enough. So I said, look, that's fine. Let's do what we need to do and we'll see what kind of result we get. And Three months later, after years of nothing working, she was actually, it was about four months later, she was pregnant and I was like, Oh, okay. So there's, there's something here, you know, but then at the same time, I thought, Oh, that's, that's strange. [00:07:33] I actually doubted my own, my own results, you know, I was like, Ooh, I don't know, I don't really know if this is just one of those. Luke situations, you know, one of those kind of like random occurrences. But then there was another patient who came to me not long after her, who was infertile for 19 years and yeah, and then I was really like going, [00:07:54] **Michelle Oravitz:** Wow. [00:07:55] **Gabriela Rosa:** I really don't think that I can do anything for you. [00:07:57] She was 44 by the time she came to me. I [00:08:00] had a conversation with her. I said, look, it's not usually, obviously what walks through my door is not 19 years of infertility, but just recently I had a lady who had been trying for 10 years. We can give it a go and see what happens. And we did that. About five or six months later, she was pregnant. [00:08:15] And so I was like, okay, now to, you know, randomness can occur, but to is a bit like a lot. and so I started to, after we had that, success, so I had that kind of experience. I started to then really decide that, okay, you know what, I'm only going to treat people who have been. Trying for more than two years and nothing has worked. [00:08:37] And I did that for many, many years. And when I finally went to do our study for the for the fertility breakthrough program and its results when I was doing my masters at Harvard, we realized that Yes, we had a 78. 8 percent live birth rate for people who had been infertile for almost four years on average, plus or minus almost [00:09:00] three years. [00:09:00] So it really helped me to realize that, okay, this definitely makes it, you know, what we do and the methodology that we use, and that obviously I've developed over the years. really does make a difference to address these really difficult, complex cases of couples who, and individuals as well, you know, sometimes we do get solo reproduction patients who come to us who have been experiencing FALD, or egg cycle, or IVF cycle, but mostly couples who know that there is more that they kind of intrinsically know there's more they can do, but they don't know what. [00:09:34] And they also are very unclear typically about why it's not working. You know, they have these unexplained diagnosis of either infertility or failed treatment or miscarriage, and they keep being told, Oh, everything is normal. Just keep trying. And we know that clearly, What is normal is that you have sex, you get pregnant, you hold your baby, that's normal. [00:09:59] A [00:10:00] deviation from that tells me that, okay, there's more that we need to ask in terms of what's going on here and certainly more that we need to answer if we're going to get somewhere. So that's how it all started. And I guess that's how it's going, you know, [00:10:13] **Michelle Oravitz:** That's awesome. I mean, those stories are pretty amazing. I mean, really, really like shockingly amazing. And a couple of things came to mind as you were talking about it. And I love the fact that you were saying about really approaching a person that To make them more vital, like to really improve their overall wellbeing. [00:10:33] And rather than just focusing on disease, you're really focusing on their health and seeing them in almost a positive light. And it is actually, we don't really notice this, but it is actually a perspective. of many healthcare professionals or like older types of healthcare, like not older, I guess more like conventional. [00:10:53] Sometimes they'll focus more on the symptoms and we always say like root cause versus symptoms rather than just [00:11:00] focusing on treating disease. It's like treating health and really kind of a more positive way to approach the journey. [00:11:08] **Gabriela Rosa:** You know, what's interesting is that we see these days that fertility, and I say fertility rather than infertility. Fertility is highly medicalized, right? So it's, it's about finding the problem and treating a problem as if The ovaries and the testicles, i. e. the egg and the sperm, were the only parts that make this process happen. [00:11:36] And we know that it's not. And, you know, what's interesting about it, and I think that, you know, to speak to what you're talking about, the issues here are so much greater than where we find ourselves, because it's a, it's a healthcare system problem. The reality of it is that when it comes to prevention, typically public health is focused on [00:12:00] prevention and the healthcare system is focused on the treatment of disease. [00:12:03] And we see that when it comes to fertility a lot and what ends up happening as a result of it is that It really is just focusing on like, it's almost like, you know, you've got a sore finger. Okay, let's chop that off and fix that problem. Hopefully you don't get to chop it off, but you know, that's typically how it, how it's approached. [00:12:24] And so what ends up happening is that the entire context of the human being that is meant to produce the result of, which really fertility is a, is an outcome. But it's also a retrospective outcome. You know that it's you're holding a baby once you are, like whatever happens before that moment happens is essentially a part of what is going to lead to whatever outcome you have. [00:12:51] And so I always talk about it from this perspective. If you are experiencing Challenges in terms of getting pregnant, keeping a healthy pregnancy to term, [00:13:00] these are end results of many biochemical chain reactions that start all the way, you know, way before the result is meant to occur. What IVF tries to do is immediately work from like the immediate part that you can see, i. [00:13:15] e. egg and sperm. But the reality of it is that there's only so much leverage when it's not very much that you can get from only trying to address those cells, as opposed to all of the biochemical pathways that are leading to the creation of the cells in the way that they are. And that's part of why IVF its own, often fails, because one, it's not looking and addressing What are the reasons as to why we need IVF to begin with? [00:13:41] And what is it that we need to do to improve the chances of conception occurring, whether it's via natural conception or via IVF? I also want to really kind of underline and highlight the point that whether we're talking about any kind of reproductive challenge, whether we're talking about [00:14:00] infertility or miscarriage or failed IVF treatments, It's almost like those are clues. [00:14:05] They're not results. They're not the outcome because the outcome of reproduction is a baby. So if we're having failures in that process that are leading us to not hold our baby, it tells us that, okay, the clues that we have are the symptoms that we're experiencing. Infertility, miscarriage, failed treatments. [00:14:26] Those are symptoms. Right, really to a large extent. And what that means is that we need to treat them as such, because if we don't address the red flags that are infertility on its own, miscarriages on its own, and failed treatments on its own, because failed treatments is relevant here, because the that you have an egg and a sperm together, you have an embryo. You have a baby right in that moment. You have a baby when you transfer an embryo for treatment, [00:15:00] you are pregnant at the time of transfer. No matter what you are pregnant. So if you don't see a positive pregnancy test. That tells us that implantation has failed and that tells us that, okay, there's something there that we need to address. [00:15:14] Why is it failing? Most doctors, most providers don't care about it. They literally just say, oh, you know, it's a like, it's a numbers game. It's the luck of the draw. Just keep trying. Everything is normal. Just keep trying. When I hear that, literally, this is why I have so much gray hair. Because when [00:15:30] **Michelle Oravitz:** But you have beautiful skin. [00:15:34] **Gabriela Rosa:** when I hear that, I just go, Oh my God, like, how can we keep believing this lie that everything is normal, just keep trying whilst we're having very clear symptoms, infertility, miscarriage, failed treatment, that things aren't quite right. [00:15:49] What we also know about these symptoms, and I like to call them symptoms because really, That is what they are. They're telling us that there is some imbalance within the system that [00:16:00] often left unaddressed will lead. It's not may lead. It is will lead to other health conditions being developed in the long term. [00:16:09] And we know that being studies about this that show that. For people who have an infertility diagnosis and just bypass it with any other kind of treatment rather than addressing IVF etc, rather than addressing the issue, what happens is that the risk and the rate of all cause mortality in the future is higher. [00:16:35] So people who are diagnosed with infertility who don't treat it. actually die from all other causes, cancer, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, at a higher rate than people who actually address their problems. And this was demonstrated to happen and be true for females and for males. So literally, if you're not addressing infertility as a symptom, [00:17:00] you are digging yourself a hole sooner and at a younger age than you otherwise would want to. [00:17:07] Now, I know that this is unpopular and most people are going to feel very confronted by hearing something like this, but the reality is that, sure, you can go and bypass infertility and the symptoms of infertility and go into IVF and get a baby. But are you going to have the quality of life and the ability to be here to raise that child in the long term? [00:17:29] That's a very important question that people need to ask themselves before they simply just jump onto, you know, overcoming the issue with a band aid and just fixing it as opposed to actually truly addressing the root cause of the problem and finding what is the problem. You know, because there are things, for example, if you have antiphospholipid syndrome, which increases the risk of miscarriage, that's also a marker for cardiovascular disease in the long term. [00:17:59] So you're [00:18:00] literally like, if you are ignoring it for, and just take heparin, take whatever to be able to actually take home a baby and not really addressing the underlying concerns that your body is telling you than a present. Well, You are certainly increasing your risk of cardiovascular disease in the future. [00:18:18] And like that, there are many other examples. I'll give you an example of insulin resistance. You know, like I was diagnosed with PCOS when I was 18, I had to really understand how to take care of my body in the best possible way to have regular cycles, despite being told by a medical doctor that. I probably would never have Children. [00:18:37] I was able to conceive two babies twice, literally one and two kind of attempts later by understanding what it is that I needed to do in a holistic way for my body. Now, had I not done that and just jump bypassed the problem with taking metformin, not that I'm saying it can't be a part of the solution, but it can't be the whole solution, right? [00:18:57] I would have probably at this stage in my life right [00:19:00] now. Have pre-diabetes or have already have diabetes because we know that insulin resistance leads to pre-diabetes, which leads to the development of diabetes and that women with PCOS have and are at highest risk. Now by me ignoring my insulin resistance, yes, I'm increasing the risk of implantation failure. [00:19:21] infertility and diabetes in the long term. And like I said, if I don't address that at the, at the point in the time that it matters to overcome fertility concerns and fertility challenges, I am choosing diabetes in the long term. So, and we know that one of the biggest killers in the world these days is diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and cancer. [00:19:43] And there are many cancers that are associated with the insulin resistance condition, resistance conditions and pre diabetes. So again, you know, I already have a family history of cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and cancer. Do I want to add to that? No, thank you. [00:19:59] **Michelle Oravitz:** [00:20:00] Yeah. I mean, wow. You know, this is such an important topic that you're bringing up and it's something that I don't even think has really been brought up to this level on my podcast and I've been doing this since 2018. I mean, yes, I've talked about how, like I've had people on and say almost like going through the fertility journey saved my life. [00:20:19] I mean, so yes, people have acknowledged it, but to this detail that you're mentioning, I think it's just so important for people to hear. And I think it is important. It's one of those painful truths. And I think it's important for people to face it and acknowledge it because ultimately you can ignore it, but it's going to come back. [00:20:38] It's not like ignoring it makes it go away. [00:20:41] **Gabriela Rosa:** exactly. And I think that that is, you know, if, people take nothing else out of this conversation today, I think what's important is to understand that you cannot bypass infertility and still be healthy in the longterm. You have to work with your body to understand why is it giving you these symptoms? [00:20:58] What is it that you can do about it? [00:21:00] Not just hearing a doctor say, Oh, everything is normal. Just keep trying. And yet having completely either it. Out of range or out of optimal range test results and continue to think that, well, IVF must be the next solution because it is not. IVF can be part of a solution and it's a wonderful part of the solution for couples who really, truly need it. [00:21:23] And truly, it was developed for women. with tubal factor infertility. So people who had blocked fallopian tubes for some reason, it wasn't developed for the variety of fertility concerns or issues and, causes that we have today. So we can't just expect that we are going to bypass the problem and are going to have absolutely no negative effect in the long term. [00:21:48] And I think that that's a really important thing for people to understand is that. Yes, you might use it as a way to support a process, but not without [00:22:00] addressing, and certainly not by ignoring what's causing it to be needed to begin with. I think that one of the biggest things, and for me this is, you know, something that I'm exceptionally passionate about, is helping people get answers. [00:22:15] you know, we even have a full free program that we give to people. That is a four week program. It's called the fertility challenge. It's completely free. It's literally worth thousands of dollars. And what it does is it helps people to understand, okay, let's understand the diagnosis. For you. Let's understand what are the things that are not working in the way that it needs to and change that. [00:22:38] You know, the objective really is to get answers, get clarity, to be able to personalize the implementation of whatever it is that you need to do so you can conceive however it is that you're going to conceive and finally hold the baby. Not continuing to go out and around in circles until you run out of time completely, because that is sadly what [00:23:00] happens to so many women, so many couples, they try, and I talk to them all the time, and it's heartbreaking, you know, people who have been trying for 10 years to have a baby and feel like, gosh, I'm at the end of my rope, I need to figure out how else I can do this, or I'm really come to terms with never having a baby, you know, like this is the decision and the place that so many of the patients who come to Mirat and I so hope and wish that people can actually have this clarity, have these epiphanies way before they are at that stage. [00:23:32] stage where they literally have their back in a corner and there's nowhere else to move. So those are important things for me. I think that it's, you know, getting clarity and getting answers is the number one thing that's actually going to enable you to implement the right strategy in terms of treatment because you can line up. [00:23:54] 10 men with poor sperm morphology. And you can have 10 [00:24:00] reasons as to why that sperm morphology is problematic in all of those different men. Right? So it's not one size fits all. Exactly. I didn't know for somebody, let's say that they have heavy exposures to like, I've had farmers in my program, you know, heavy exposures to heavy metals and, and heat and, you know, all sorts of things. [00:24:20] And then I've got doctors, heavy exposure to radiation and so on. So, you know, it's, it's one of those things that you really have to understand the context specific need for the patient to be able to properly and effectively address it. Otherwise you're literally just trialing and erroring until. [00:24:38] Unfortunately, many people run out of time altogether.  [00:24:42] **Michelle Oravitz:** I think that the biggest problem is that people just don't even know what they don't know. So they go to doctors and then, I mean, I was one of them and people know this, you know, my listeners know this. I've been on the birth control pill and that was like my solution to irregular periods and it was just like, [00:25:00] take this. [00:25:00] And this is the only thing you can do. And apart from this, there's nothing you can do. And that's, um, you know, such a straight statement and such a definitive statement. Statement that I don't know better. So I just believe it. And then until years later, I find different modality and realize, Oh no, there is something I can do. [00:25:17] So like  [00:25:18] **Gabriela Rosa:** There's lots.  [00:25:19] **Michelle Oravitz:** I didn't know. I did not know what I didn't know until I knew. And so this is why I love having people like you on here, bringing light to this because people need to hear this. Cause I think it's going to start to like light up something in their minds. It's like, Oh, wow, this is something that I can really. [00:25:36] Look into that's number one is people don't know what they don't know. But also number two is that they don't even know they can do anything about it. Then there's a lot of things that you could do about it. And you know, there's so many people say like, Oh, there's nothing you can do. There's no cure. And a cure is kind of like a, you know, very definitive word, but treatment. [00:25:56] I mean, there's things that you can do that actually [00:26:00] can impact it. It's just that that is not something that is in the conventional world. [00:26:06] **Gabriela Rosa:** Yeah. And you know what else is interesting, and I think that this is important for people to understand as well, because it's, it's a bugmare of mine, which is when people go to their doctor and the doctor runs some tests and then they go back for results and they literally are told, Oh, we've done all the tests. [00:26:22] And everything is normal. Now, let's peel this back and let's explain what all the tests actually means because all the tests does not mean all of the tests, okay? And everything is normal definitely doesn't mean that if you're still not holding a baby. And let me explain what that, what I mean by that. [00:26:39] When it comes to the fertility guidelines around the world, which is what doctors will most of the time will be following guidelines because they don't want to be seen as being stupid amongst their peers. Okay, so what happens with this? doctor will typically refuse to prescribe or request a test result unless they [00:27:00] feel validated in doing so. [00:27:02] Okay. And the reason for that, and I've had this conversation with doctors, my own providers, as well as colleagues who tell me this, they say, I can't ask for this test because it's not going to be either approved by insurance, or I'm going to be criticized for requesting this test to which I reply. Well. [00:27:22] What is currently in the guidelines when it comes to fertility diagnosis is that you check for patency in the fallopian tubes, so are the fallopian tubes clear, and usually that's tested these days, it used to be an HSG, these days it's by Hycose, ultrasound with fluid in the tubes and, you know, dye spilling through if the tubes are clear. [00:27:45] The other test that is done is typically your kind of general FSH, LH, estrogen, progesterone. Progesterone typically recommended on day 21 of the cycle, which also is not necessarily the right thing because some women have irregular cycles and [00:28:00] lengthened cycles and irregular ovulation. So really progesterone should be occurring seven days post ovulation and not at day 21 of the cycle, particularly if a woman has lengthened cycles or shortened. [00:28:13] cycles. It doesn't mean that a woman is not ovulating in those two instances. It just means that pinpointing ovulation becomes more difficult. And that is pretty much, and then of course, sperm parameters. Most people that come to me, believe it or not, despite years of infertility, have not had a semen analysis done. [00:28:30] or don't have a recent semen analysis that really understands what's going on with sperm right now because sperm changes literally every four months. And so you can have the flu and end up with zero sperm. It actually can happen. And you know, that doesn't mean that that person is azoospermic forever and always, it just means that they've had a severe infection that has wiped out their for a sperm cycle or for a period of time. [00:28:57] So Understanding that the major [00:29:00] things, and some doctors are more thorough and some will prescribe or refer, recommend further tests, but as a bare minimum, they're looking for hormonal balance, looking for ovulation and looking for tubal patiency and sperm parameters. So those are four things. [00:29:15] Out of literally thousands of tests that could be done and that needs to be looked at. And of course, needs to be personalized because testing is also expensive and you don't want to be wasting time doing tests for no reason. So, you know, there is a balance to that. But it's not enough to have four tests and not really exactly know what it is that's being tested. [00:29:37] And your doctor tell you, Oh, you know, we've done all the tests and everything is normal because very little is going to be picked up unless there is some serious major issue. Very little is going to be picked up by those four, you know, four things being tested or four areas being tested. What's going to happen is that you may end up with some clues about what else needs to be tested, but [00:30:00] Typically, it's going to be insufficient to gain a proper diagnosis. [00:30:05] to which what happens from there is that people get diagnosed with unexplained infertility. And hence why unexplained infertility is the major, the biggest category of infertility diagnosis, because more tests have not been done. Now, typically, and this is when [00:30:23] we're  [00:30:23] **Michelle Oravitz:** I mean, that is such a good statement. Keep going. Sorry. [00:30:28] **Gabriela Rosa:** the thing about it is that that's what we're talking about conception and conception attempt failures, which IE infertility is what, how it's labeled. [00:30:38] But when we're talking about miscarriages or implantation failure, it's even worse. Because, guess what? The healthcare system expects that a woman has to have at least three miscarriages before testing is done. Now, really? I mean, I don't know, for anybody who has ever had one miscarriage, it's traumatizing enough. [00:30:58] Waiting to have three [00:31:00] before you actually do any further testing, to me, is pretty extreme. That's why, you know. It's unacceptable. It's, as a woman, I think it's just like, it's ridiculous, right? Now, the other thing then that happens is failed IVF You end up with an embryo. Most people who go into IVF, and it's not everyone, but most people will end up with at least one embryo, and there will be a decision to transfer said embryo. [00:31:23] If it doesn't work, and of course, if the cycle gets cancelled for any other reason before we get to that stage, or even then. after getting an embryo, i. e. embryo doesn't develop, doesn't, you know, there's no blastocysts to transfer, whatever it is. Every single one of those points of failure, so to speak, needs to be questioned and needs to be specifically tested and addressed because otherwise, again, you can end up with the same problem. [00:31:51] Now, In the case of IVF, it's more problematic because it's also extremely costly. In the United States, an average IVF [00:32:00] cycle costs about 17, 000 U. S. dollars. And around the world, you know, the price varies. But let's just go with the United States data. And we look at an average cost of 17, 000. That is whether you get to transfer or not. [00:32:13] you are paying that money. [00:32:15] **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. [00:32:16] **Gabriela Rosa:** you have an embryo or not, [00:32:18] you are paying that money. So the thing about it that I questioned is like, okay, and there are published studies that show that in order to have a close to 80 percent live birth rate, cumulative rate for IVF, i. e. having a baby, close to 80 percent cumulative rate of chance of having a baby, you have to have eight IVF cycles. [00:32:39] That's the average. Now imagine, imagine eight times seventeen thousand dollars, I mean for some people that's a house. [00:32:48] **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. [00:32:49] **Gabriela Rosa:** Right. So no wonder people can't afford to go and do IVF. No wonder there are so many challenges. But even if you can afford it, would you rather do something else first to [00:33:00] understand what is the cause and address that before going and doing another cycle? [00:33:04] You know, we have so many patients who come to us after failed cycles and go, look, I want to prepare to have another better cycle. Typically, those people end up conceiving naturally. They didn't even need IVF to begin with. And when they do, they end up having one or two maximum cycles afterwards, once you understand what the problem is. [00:33:23] So again, hence the critical importance of understanding what is the problem you are dealing with, rather than just expecting that you are going to be okay with some unexplained diagnosis. for your expertise. [00:33:37] **Michelle Oravitz:** So walk us through, like, if you have certain cases, like the ones that you were mentioning, that are really, really complex and many, many years of dealing with. really being on this journey, what are some of the steps you would take? You had mentioned doing testing and functional testing also just for people listening, if you don't know about it, is a lot more in depth and [00:34:00] detailed than what you'll typically get when you go to the doctor's office. [00:34:03] **Gabriela Rosa:** Yeah, no, I agree with that. And look, the testing piece, it's almost, it's a science and an art, right? Because it's almost like you need to balance. various things when requesting a test, you have to balance what is the return on the knowledge that you're going to gain? What's the time spent? What is the money spent? [00:34:22] What are the things that are actually going to give you a lot to be able to do about it versus not very much for a very expensive test? So there's, so for me personally, and certainly, you know, in the first time method, what we use in the pro in our programs, really, what we're looking at is we kind of go back to the drawing board, we collect all the data. [00:34:42] We really look at everything that the patient brings from their lived experience, whether it's test results, other things that they've done, whatever it is, we collect and analyze all of that information to really first understand, okay, what has been done? Where are the gaps? Where are the places of opportunity? [00:34:58] What are the things [00:35:00] that. we need action that is absolutely urgent. And one of the things that we don't actually need to address because there will be addressed as part of addressing the, you know, some of the basic major root issues, root causes. So it's understanding that nuance that actually ends up being able to direct a path, particularly in those cases that we treat that are very difficult and complex because you can do a thousand tests. [00:35:28] You know, there's thousands of tests that you can actually do. Will you do them? No, no. So then we have to really be able to identify, okay, what are the red flags that if we were to understand more about them? Or where the gaps that if we don't know is going to change the direction of our, say, of our choices, then we're starting to look at those things, you know, in cost effectiveness, cost effectiveness analysis, which is a big [00:36:00] field of science, really, the idea is this, if you are going to treat anyway, don't test. [00:36:07] Right. So for example, and there are pros and cons to this, but you know, there are certain things that you're going to treat anyway. So is there a need to test it? Sometimes there is. But sometimes there really isn't and that's the thing that we really need to kind of balance in the whole scheme of things is the things that are going to be absolutely essential and the things that are not really going to be that important. [00:36:34] **Michelle Oravitz:** And what were some of the protocols or what are the types of ways that you treat people or. What is included in the protocols? [00:36:44] **Gabriela Rosa:** It's depends because it's very personalized, you know, so we will use a blend of medical. treatments and even medical diagnostics, of course. And we then are going to utilize the best of all of the worlds that we have access to, whether it's [00:37:00] naturopathic medicine, integrative medicine, traditional Chinese medicine, lifestyle medicine. [00:37:04] So we then are putting together a very personalized process. That is going to help that individual that is part of that couple. Because like I said, you know, you have 10 different men, you have 10 different reasons. Therefore, we need to understand what is the reason here and what do we then make as recommendations. [00:37:24] My biggest focus always is minimum effective dose. I want to do the least possible to get the biggest resolved. Right. That is my focus. So I'm always assessing and addressing the case from that lens of like, okay, what do I need to touch? What do I have to leave alone? Because there are certain things that, you know, for example, I'll give you an example of heavy metal toxicity. [00:37:46] Heavy metal toxicity is a really tricky one. In some cases, it will increase the risk of miscarriage. Like, hugely. I had patient once who basically had 40 times the, elevated rate of what's kind of acceptable in a [00:38:00] human. And essentially had had 8 miscarriages a result, was coming to me to figure out, okay, why am I having miscarriage after miscarriage, even though I'm getting pregnant, she was only 30. [00:38:10] So we went on to identify that she had really high level of mercury toxicity, which was causing these miscarriages. And there were other factors too. So we addressed all of it and we had to make a decision in her situation to actually go for medical chelation therapy. Because what ended up happening for her with that high level is that she was going to continue miscarrying. [00:38:32] And we also knew that chelation therapy would take a long time because it doesn't work quickly. It took us 12 months of treating her, doing chelation, doing retesting, more chelation, more retesting to actually get to a point where she could start trying to conceive again. So it's not everybody has that kind of time, which means that we might find high heavy metals in a person and have to leave it alone because literally we have two years until this [00:39:00] is all over, right? [00:39:01] So it just depends on the situation and we have to make those critical clinical decisions that are going to really help the outcome that we are looking for. So it's highly personalized. So it's not. I don't have, we have a framework that we make sure that we don't leave things to chance, that we really are, you know, checking off every box, but we don't have a, this is the only way that we do this because we have to ask and answer questions and address and adapt accordingly. [00:39:29] **Michelle Oravitz:** So I guess, my question wasn't specifically like a protocol that's customized, like for all, cause I get it. We do the same thing, but do you use, what kind of tools do you use [00:39:39] **Gabriela Rosa:** Oh, we use all sorts of things from, yeah, from drug therapy to herbal medicines, to nutritional supplementation, to exercise, to sleep, to diet, like, All of the things, you know, so in terms of what it is that we're going to use, we're going to use whatever it is that we need to use. You know, sometimes we find infections that we're not going to waste time [00:40:00] trying to use. [00:40:00] I was just going to go straight to antibiotics. You know, because that's just the thing that's [00:40:04] going to give us the result the fastest. So, again, even the treatment part is going to be very, I guess, personalized to whatever it is that that person needs, because at the end of the day, I want speed.  [00:40:18] **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah,  [00:40:19] **Gabriela Rosa:** speed and I want effectiveness. [00:40:21] So it's, it's balancing all of those worlds. [00:40:24] **Michelle Oravitz:** definitely have a unique perspective though, in a sense that you use tools that are conventional and, a little bit more alternative and holistic. So it is a really great combination because you can get amazing results with both. Yeah. [00:40:41] **Gabriela Rosa:** way that I see it is like, we really do want to blend the best of both worlds. We don't want to say, Oh no, this is not something that we use. I'm not. Look, honestly, I am not, I'm not a purist. I'm not a purist, you know, like, I don't think that there's only one way to do things. [00:40:57] I think I always am looking for what is the best [00:41:00] way to do something, you know, what's going to get us the outcome that we're looking for, balancing all of the constraints and challenges and situations that we have in front of us. So, but how? And I always say to my patients, I'm completely impartial as to how you get pregnant. [00:41:15] I don't care if we have to use IUI, IVF, you know, like I don't care donor egg. That's not the thing. The thing is, if my patient comes to me and says, look, I'm, I want a baby no matter what. we are going to explore every, every opportunity to be able to do that. Then I also have some patients who come to me and say, I will only try natural conception. [00:41:36] I'm like, okay, cool. Let's explore and make sure that we maximize that opportunity. You know, what are the things that we need to do? But it's, values and preferences of the patient that will determine where we go and what recommendations we will make. [00:41:52] **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. I love that. I mean, I think that that ultimately just shows that you're present with your patient because that is [00:42:00] ultimately what it is. It's not a one size fits all because then it's something that you pre craft and just give out. But when you're present with a patient, you're able to really assess what you have in front of you specifically. [00:42:11] One topic that I did want to actually ask you about, you know, to get your thoughts, A lot of times people will come in with like, What they say, quote unquote, low AMH, which as we know, sometimes fluctuates in itself, but people get really hung up on it in response to how their doctors get really hung up on it, and I've seen this my, in my own office is that it really doesn't make as much of. [00:42:38] I guess the challenge is people think it does. I've seen people with very low numbers that were told that they needed egg donor conceive naturally like multiple times after that. So I just wanted to get your thoughts on that. [00:42:50] **Gabriela Rosa:** Yeah, absolutely. It's a great question. And look, you know, what happens is that AMH levels, which measures the ovarian reserve, it's measuring the hormones that are excreted by [00:43:00] the eggs themselves, right? And so the more of AMH you have, the more eggs you're likely to have, the less AMH, the less eggs you're likely to have. [00:43:08] Yeah. Does it mean that if you have low AMH that you can't conceive naturally and what is the best way to conceive? Well, actually, all the science shows that if you have low AMH, typically the best option for conception is actually natural conception or IUI. As opposed to IVF. Most, and this is why most women with lower MH go to their doctors and they refuse to do IVF cycles if they are good doctors. [00:43:35] If they just want to take their money, they might not be that kind of doctor. Right? And so the reality of it is that Low MH in itself does not preclude a woman from conceiving with her own eggs naturally. I see the same thing in my clinic. In fact, our study, our Harvard study shows that even in the very low MH category, the less than one, the one to four is low, less than one is very low. [00:43:59] [00:44:00] We had the majority of patients conceive by natural conception in that category group. So very possible, very doable. However, it's not as easy as it used to be. Thank you. Right. When a woman had higher AMH, and this is also part of the reason why you need to make sure that you're addressing the full context of the patient, because a woman's ovarian reserve is just going to, it's going to decline at the time, no matter what. [00:44:26] And if you're treating the wrong problem, i. e. let's say, for example, we have very poor sperm quantity, quality, you know, all of those things. And you are continually treating the woman because she has low ovarian reserve. Well, you're actually leaving a lot on the table because she probably with a better sperm partner would actually have already conceived. [00:44:50] And so it's about understanding, again, this is where I always say fertility is a team sport. And I say that for a reason. You can't expect that a woman [00:45:00] with lower age is going to conceive with crappy sperm. If you have a lower age, what you need is superhero sperm, right? And so it's, and men's sperm quality decreases over time as women's fertility decreases over time. [00:45:14] So it's a, it's a matter of understanding. What it means, like, for example, if you have just low AMH and your FSH is normal on day two, then you have a much better chance of conceiving and taking home a healthy baby, whether it's naturally or any other way, than a woman who has low AMH and high FSH. [00:45:34] Because then, if you're having high FSH, it's telling you that already on day two, your ovaries are already struggling to release the eggs that are remaining. So that tells me that, again, IVF is definitely not the best option, and you need to figure out, okay, what else is there that you can, what are the levers that you can pull, because probably egg quality is [00:46:00] not going to be enough. [00:46:01] Right? And so then you have to address and adjust treatment accordingly. But just as a full answer to your question, just as a, as a very big summary, Lower MH does not mean that you can't conceive. It does signal the onset of perimenopause. Typically ovarian reserve lowers quite significantly five to ten years before menopause, and particularly for women who smoke, that happens even five years before women who don't smoke. [00:46:30] So it's certainly if you, if you are trying to get pregnant and you smoke, well, you better stop. Right now, because you are definitely almost kind of poisoning your chances of taking a healthy pregnancy to term at any point, like you're literally certainly decreasing your chances by at least five years compared to non smoking counterparts. [00:46:54] And if your partner smokes secondary, you know, kind of smoke is also going to be a problem. [00:47:00] So, and of course, that's going to be a problem for sperm. So there's all of those, those contexts as well that we have to take into account. But yeah, it's, it doesn't necessarily translate that low AMH means no baby or low AMH means that it must be donor egg situation. [00:47:15] We had patients, and again, this is in our analysis, the majority of patients who had low AMH were told that they needed to have donor egg. We, in the entire sample of 544 patients, we only had 5. 6%. actually need donor egg. So, and the majority were consuming naturally. So, you know, I take that with a very large grain of salt. [00:47:38] **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. And this is why you have to get many multiple opinions and really do your research and find the right practitioner. Maybe a couple of different practitioners. but I love your approach and I think that a lot of what you're saying, first of all, it makes a lot of sense, but it's also, is research based and empowering for people listening. [00:47:59] [00:48:00] And so for people listening who are interested or want to learn more about your work, what are the things that you offer online, like [00:48:08] **Gabriela Rosa:** Yeah. So [00:48:09] **Michelle Oravitz:** far away, [00:48:10] **Gabriela Rosa:** they can go to my website, which is fertilitybreakthrough. com and they can also search my name, which is Gabriella Rosa, G A B R I E L A R O S A. they will find, I have my book, Fertility Breakthrough, Overcoming Infertility and Recurrent Miscarriage When Other Treatments Have Failed free on YouTube and Spotify. [00:48:29] So they'll be able to get the audio version there. It's also available on Amazon and every other bookseller. And of course, as I mentioned earlier, you know, we have the free fertility challenge program that is designed for couples who want to overcome infertility and miscarriage, and most importantly, want to find answers, you know, and want to know what it is that they need to do and how to personalize their journey so that they can hold their baby sooner, [00:48:53] **Michelle Oravitz:** amazing, and you work one on one as well, right? [00:48:56] **Gabriela Rosa:** our team does absolutely. So, yes. [00:48:59] **Michelle Oravitz:** [00:49:00] amazing, Gabriella, this is an amazing conversation. I've seen you around before. I've looked at your information before we spoke and I was very impressed and this exceeded my expectations. So thank you so much for coming on. [00:49:14] **Gabriela Rosa:** Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a real pleasure. [00:50:00]       

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by the incredible Dr. Alice Domar, a pioneer in the field of mind-body medicine and a leader in reproductive health psychology. Dr. Domar shares insights from her decades of research and work with patients experiencing infertility, diving deep into the emotional and physical toll of fertility challenges and how stress can impact reproductive outcomes. We discuss the groundbreaking research that links stress reduction to increased fertility success rates, the importance of patient-centered care, and how mind-body practices can transform the fertility journey. Dr. Domar also shares her thoughts on spirituality, the power of connection, and how fostering a sense of belonging can help patients navigate the emotional rollercoaster of infertility. This episode is packed with valuable insights and hope for anyone on the fertility journey. Be sure to tune in as you won't want to miss this eye-opening and inspiring conversation! Key takeaways: Stress significantly impacts reproductive outcomes, and reducing stress can improve success rates in fertility treatments. Research shows infertility patients often experience anxiety and depression levels similar to those with major illnesses like cancer or heart disease. The brain and body are constantly connected, and managing stress through mind-body strategies can positively influence fertility. Connecting with spirituality or a higher power can help individuals cope with the emotional challenges of infertility. Isolation is common for those facing infertility, but connecting with support groups or programs can provide invaluable relief and healing. Cutting-edge research using physiological devices to measure stress in real-time may revolutionize how stress is addressed during fertility treatments. Empathy, connection, and compassionate care are essential for improving the patient experience and outcomes. Guest Bio: Alice “Ali” Domar, Ph.D. is a pioneer in mind-body medicine, focusing on the relationship between stress, medical conditions, and lifestyle habits. She is Chief Compassion Officer at Inception Fertility, part-time associate professor at Harvard Medical School, and senior staff psychologist at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center. Dr. Domar is the author of Conquering Infertility and Finding Calm for the Expectant Mom and serves on advisory boards for Parents Magazine, Resolve, and Easy Eats. Her work has been featured in Redbook, Health, and BeWell.com. Websites/Social Media Links: https://www.instagram.com/inceptionfertility/ https://inceptionfertility.com/about-us/our-team/ https://www.preludefertility.com/  

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle and Lindsay Goodwin @fertilefrequencies explore the intersection of spirituality and fertility, discussing Lindsay's journey as an intuitive medium and healer. They delve into the concept of spirit babies, the emotional and subconscious factors affecting fertility, and the importance of surrendering to the process. The discussion emphasizes the integration of mind-body techniques and the role of emotions in manifesting desires, particularly in the context of fertility. Lindsay shares insights from her new podcast,'Fertile Frequencies,' aimed at providing support and guidance for those on their fertility journey.       Guest Bio:   Lindsay Goodwin is a fertility support and reproductive medicine pioneer who uniquely blends spiritual and energy healing techniques with scientific approaches for a truly holistic experience. With credentials as a certified master life coach for self-mastery, a certified NLP therapist, a hypnotherapist, a licensed acupuncturist, and a board-certified herbalist, Lindsay brings a unique comprehensive approach to health, personal growth, and awakening the power within.   As a certified fellow on ABORM and a spiritual fertility medium, Lindsay uniquely empowers clients to overcome health, emotional, and mindset challenges. She achieves this through a blend of evidence-based practices and energy tools, helping individuals overwhelmed by stress, life demands, and fertility obstacles to conquer anxieties, setbacks, and past traumas. Her work fosters new patterns that usher in joy, fulfillment, freedom, and the renewed energy to hope.   Lindsay's profound personal transformation further enriches her expertise. A near-death experience prompted her awakening to the divine power within us all, leading her to integrate science, consciousness, and the unseen energies for healing and abundance. Her leadership in higher consciousness, mindset, and physical health has guided countless individuals to reclaim their lives and achieve a state of harmony, growth, and fulfillment, and to know that they are so much more than just their physical bodies!   IG: @fertilefrequencies  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@FertileFrequencies Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/7usDvORdMFGzO2EILBsBju Website: https://garnetmoonlove.com/the-empowered-fertile-code-program/ Free Gift - Fertile Affirmations & Spirit Baby Connection: https://lindsay-goodwin-garnet-moon.mykajabi.com/fertile-affirmations-audio     For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Check out Michelle's Latest Book: The Way of Fertility! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:    Michelle (00:00) Welcome back to the podcast Lindsay.   Lindsay Goodwin (00:03) Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here, Michelle.   Michelle (00:06) Well, I love having you. We just had a whole long pre-talk. We just always connected. I always connected with you like from day one. So, and I love just seeing how you're progressing as a practitioner. And also as I was reading her bio, I mean, I really feel very aligned with how you see your healing, how you approach things, how you are staying in your truth with the   connection that you feel to spirit and also acknowledging how important that is in the healing process. And I think that, and we talked about this, there's this whole science versus this, it could be both. And I think that now we are moving into a place where we're actually bridging a lot of what has been shown that is sort of, it's being revealed almost like all the things that the ancients have been talking about for thousands of years.   is now starting to become revealed through science. And it's kind of interesting how that is happening right now in this time that we're living. We're starting to see a lot of things, even that the heart houses the mind through heart math, those kinds of things about coherence and how our heart is the the creative center and all of these different things, which I'm sure you're also very into. So I would love for you to just a quick   I mean, you've been on here before, but just a quick like background on you and how you got into this work and how you also in your own spirit, your own journey, connected with spirit and realized the importance of that when it comes to healing.   Lindsay Goodwin (01:51) Yeah, well, Michelle, thank you so much. And absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more. We are definitely so aligned and I absolutely love the work that you're doing as well. And it's absolutely wonderful to meet other practitioners, healers, providers that are on the same path and are here to really help so many people that need it. So thank you so much. So really about how I got started. Well, I'm actually born intuitive medium. So as a child, I...   was very in tune almost as if I could hear people's thoughts. I just knew things that were much greater than what a three year old child because I remember about back when I was about three should know at that age and I also would see energy orbs. I just would know things about people know a lot about their emotions just was very intuitive. And so then as a child I grew up I run the age of seven is generally when we start to be conditioned and that's really when   The subconscious mind really starts to form is around the age of seven So that's when I kind of lost it and I started to try to fit into society like most of us And then when I was going through a divorce in my late 30s, I had a spiritual awakening I was actually robbed at gunpoint and during that experience I had an out-of-body experience   and I met what I refer to as God or universal energy, source energy, whatever you prefer to call it. And I was wrapped in gold light. It was almost like time had stopped. And the energy that was in the room, I do remember that it was radiating from behind the gunman that had the gun to my back. So the universe was also protecting them. So it was not only protecting me, but everyone because we are all connected. We're not separate. And so   It was really interesting to me. And there's also that saying, know, the universe. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty crazy. The universe always has your back. So, you know, I see things very I see things symbolically, but also that was very literal, like that saying the universe always has your back. I had a gun in my back, but there was this energy that was protecting me and the gunman. So during that time, I was not thinking about what you normally would think you would think about when you're going to lose your life.   Michelle (03:45) That's interesting.   Lindsay Goodwin (04:10) I wasn't thinking about my family. I wasn't thinking about my dog that I had at the time. I was only thinking about what I was seeing and I was seeing angels as well as this energy that I am speaking of this gold light. And I saw one of my spirit guides, his name is Bill. He was there and he had just transitioned out of his body back into spirit about six weeks before this had happened. And I saw my grandparents. And so I was told at this time,   that you need to wake up, you need to do what you're supposed to be doing, and you're gonna go back and you're gonna do this work. And so I remembered that, wow, I remember all these things, what I would experience as a child. It was like this beautiful kind of bittersweet sort of experience that happened because it woke me up. So after that, I really just all the intuitive stuff started coming in. I started taking a really strong interest in numerology.   consciousness and it just has opened up. And then I started getting a lot of messages from the babies. So I was a acupuncturist at the time. was and I still am an acupuncturist. And I was getting a lot of messages from babies and whether they would be in the aura of the person that I was treating, or they would actually be in the womb space and I would get messages from them.   I have regular dreams from what I call spirit baby guides that will come and share information with me about how to help people as well as people that I am working with. And so it's been very apparent and made very apparent to me what my job is. And I do not only treat fertility, I work with people on a just a very   helping people across the board with helping them really understand themselves. But fertility is a big part of my job. probably about 50%.   Michelle (06:08) Amazing. so spirit babies have always really intrigued me. And what is it that you feel orbs or what exactly do you feel when you see those spirit babies attached to your patients?   Lindsay Goodwin (06:25) Yeah, absolutely. So they can be sparkles. I see a lot of sparkles. The orbs of colors that I generally see will be blue, white, gold, sometimes purple, sometimes I will see pink. There have been times I have seen green. But the colors are specific. I haven't quite figured out why I only see certain colors.   Michelle (06:47) Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (06:48) but they're very beautiful. They're like, if someone is sitting in my office or if I'm doing a virtual session because I work with people globally, that I can actually see these sparkles that will actually start to just come off of them or around them. And that could be a spirit baby. It could also be a passed on loved one that is guiding that particular person on their journey.   Michelle (07:03) Mm.   Lindsay Goodwin (07:11) But we're talking about spirit babies today. So definitely just the spirit in general could have that sort of sparkly sort of energy that I'll see in the person's energy field, which could also be known as biofield, which would be more of a scientific term if we're talking about auras. And then I just, see a lot in my third eye. So your third eye is right between your eyebrows. If people know about chakras, I know that you do, Michelle.   And so I get these thought forms. Sometimes they'll actually be words that will come across. Other times they'll be visuals like I will see the baby. I actually will see what they look like as well as their gender. They will show me different artifacts or objects that relate to the person that I'm reading so that that person will know that I'm actually telling them something that they can link up to and I'm not just making it up.   So that's one thing I've realized over the years with the spirit babies and just the spirit world in general is that things will come through that will resonate with you to confirm with you that you're not alone.   Michelle (08:18) Right. That's amazing. And what do you find or what are the messages that you get for people who are struggling to conceive yet they have a spirit baby around them? Like what is the holdup for the spirit baby coming through?   Lindsay Goodwin (08:33) Well, that's a very common question and there could be a bazillion different things, but I'll tell you some common areas that I see. There could be, you know, it could be that maybe subconsciously, this is where the subconscious mind comes in, which is really powerful. You're into that as well as also a certified hypnotherapist that our subconscious mind will create energy blocks and will make it so that we're thinking things under the radar.   Michelle (09:02) Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (09:02) that could   be patterns about, maybe I won't be a good mom, maybe I won't be a good dad, maybe I won't be a good parent. And it could relate to some sort of traumatic event that happened. Maybe you had a mother that was emotionally unavailable. You couldn't speak your truth. You know, not necessarily saying that your parents were bad. It could be that maybe they just were dealing with their own things that were going on. And so you could be carrying around that trauma and not even realize that you're carrying it around. So...   Michelle (09:08) Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (09:32) People often ask me, why is it so easy for some people to get pregnant, but it's difficult for me? Why have I had so much loss? Or maybe I have never even had a pregnancy or maybe I have secondary infertility. And the answer that I often get is that I remind people and letting them know that everybody's journey is different. And when we sign up to have these human experiences, we're coming in and we're creating different experiences.   Michelle (09:51) Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (09:58) based on what our soul wants to learn in this physical 3D reality. And so if we're comparing our lives to other people and that, well, this person over here got pregnant really easily. Why is this person getting pregnant that doesn't even want the baby? Is this because everyone's journey is different as well as your spirit baby's journey is different. And so it could be a good example would be is that maybe you're someone that wanted to have a   lot more wisdom before you became a parent. Maybe you're someone that didn't want to be like your mother with your child. Maybe there was a lot of healing that needed to happen before your child actually would show up physically because you wanted to be in the best version of yourself to be able to give this child the life that maybe you didn't have.   Michelle (10:30) Mm-hmm.   Yeah. I mean, there's the thing that I find is that, and I've gotten these ideas and downloads through meditation, through even going to Joe Dispenza events, because you're so immersed that you get these downloads, is that we are just simply not aware of the big picture. And we try to make conclusions based on parts and those parts of our life. so it's very hard to make a very   big picture conclusion when we don't have the big picture in front of us. And so part of that is really trusting that there's something else that does see the big picture that we're connected to and being able to surrender that. And that's another thing too that I've noticed is the surrender part. I think we're so conditioned to go after it that sometimes I like to kind of like think about, you know, the Chinese,   Lindsay Goodwin (11:26) Yeah.   Yeah.   Michelle (11:49) handcuffs or the finger cuffs or whatever. The faster you pull, the more you pull tightly and forcefully, the more you get stuck. Creating that kind of flow in your life will allow you to get the lesson faster, I feel like, and then you move faster. That's what I've noticed. Have you picked up on that?   Lindsay Goodwin (12:14) yeah, absolutely. I mean, I have a client that I've been seeing since August and we've got some really good news yesterday. Her AMH went from a 0.44 or something like that to over 1.1 something. Yeah. And it's amazing. I just, it's yes, yes, absolutely. And she's in her forties. And I just, told her, what I tell my clients is you did that.   Michelle (12:31) Wow, that's amazing. That's great to hear for people to hear.   Lindsay Goodwin (12:44) You did that. mean, of course, supplements help acupuncture, but you did that because you have learned to let go of things that are no longer serving you. You're starting to really trust yourself. Your body is saying, yes, yes, yes, because your mind is saying, hey, I know my worthiness. I know that I deserve to be a mom because if I didn't deserve to be a mom, I wouldn't desire it.   Michelle (12:45) Yes. Right.   Lindsay Goodwin (13:10) Okay, and so she is really now believing that this is truly happening for her. It's a knowing now rather than it just, I'm looking for hope, I'm looking for encouragement, will this happen? She's actually knowing that it's happening and her body is responding to it because of her mind power. So I, you know, to get back to what you were talking about, you know, with surrendering, I often tell people with manifesting, whether it's a baby, because babies are manifestations.   Michelle (13:10) Mm-hmm, right.   Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Lindsay Goodwin (13:40) It's a partner, it's a business, it's a new house, whatever it is, it's better health. What we do, and this is challenging because we're not taught this, but as little kids, we know this. We put out into the universe that, okay, I'm gonna manifest this. You have to almost take it and put it up on the shelf and leave it there. You have to be unattached. Yes, exactly, you have to be unattached.   Michelle (13:40) Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah.   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You almost have to forget about it.   Yeah.   Lindsay Goodwin (14:10) to the how, the when, what it's gonna look like. And you're living your life and you're enjoying your magic and your light and your family and all the things that make you happy. I mean, when our perspective shifts, our whole world shifts. You can look at something one way or you can look at it another way. If you're looking at things and that things are abundant or you're looking at things of what I don't have,   Michelle (14:13) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.   True.   Lindsay Goodwin (14:38) That's a very different feeling. And we know that the universe is responding to how we feel.   Michelle (14:44) yes. Yeah. It's the feelings. Yeah. The feelings really make a huge difference. And that's what they found actually in the research that Joe Dispenza does is because the researchers come up and talk and they say the two things that they saw, you know, the combination is thought emotions and emotional state. So that's one of the reasons why he focuses a lot on the heart and also this joy and the love.   Because when you feel those emotions, you can feel those emotions in very challenging times, yet you still can be very elevated. And I can tell you this, I I went through the loss of my father and it was a very challenging time to see him go through the transition. I knew he was gonna transition. I knew that I was witnessing to that. At the same time, I was able to get into a state of such love.   Lindsay Goodwin (15:38) Yeah.   Michelle (15:39) that   I felt more alive than like ever before. It felt like such a pivotal and sacred time, even though it could be judged as like this bad, dark time. And yes, it had very difficult, painful aspects to it, but the way I'm describing it now is it's a more neutral way. So you could look at something and acknowledge the pain in a more neutral perspective.   rather than looking at it and saying, this is good, this is bad. Because ultimately by doing that, or saying something's bad, you're limiting yourself. We were talking about that before. You're limiting yourself to that aspect of it. And that will impact your energy and how you're able to really show up in your life. And the energy impact can for sure impact the AMH. So all of these things that suck our energy throughout our life,   and mentally in the background are going to definitely impact the energy that can go into procreation. So it's this whole big picture.   Lindsay Goodwin (16:46) It really is. And you know, I love what you're saying. It's about giving meaning to things. know, once we give meaning to things, then it takes on its own energy. neutral is a very powerful way of explaining it. And I know that that can be challenging as a human being because we're encoded with emotions. It's part of the experience. But when you can learn, like the Buddha says, and I'm not Buddhist, but just, know, I love   Michelle (17:07) Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (17:16) history and there's a lot of philosophies that are great, is that when you can live in that middle place, you know, rather than being too up here or too down here, you're just neutral. That's really when the manifestation happens. That's really when the happiness, that's where the joy is, because you're not attached to anything.   Michelle (17:23) Mm-hmm.   Yep. Yeah.   Yep.   Yes, it is. It's that golden path. know, Eckhart Tolle refers to that as the present moment. And Chinese medicine can refer to that or Taoism as flow. You know, that is that golden path that is, it's neither one extreme or the other. It's here in the center. It's that neutrality.   And many different ancient cultures have been pointing to that. And many different spiritual teachers refer to that because that is the portal. And Eckhart Tolle says that that present moment is the portal really to the endlessness. So it's, it's when we're able to really let go and, know, also not the, not get hung up on the past and hold on to all of that and not get too identified with the future.   just really being in that center moment. If you think about that, if you truly, truly get into that state, you're very free. You're free. And when you're free, energetically, you're able to really connect to a wealth of power and energy to create whatever you need to create.   Lindsay Goodwin (18:47) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I have to add to that, you know, I don't know if you ask yourself this, but I find it quite interesting if we're just talking about Chinese medicine. How is it that ancient philosophers of Chinese medicine came up with everything that they knew about the internal parts of the body and the spiritual energy with no diagnostics, no MRI machine, no ultrasound, no ability to look at the blood. They were channeling.   They were channeling energy.   Michelle (19:19) 100%. 100%. They were connected to that wealth of intelligence that we all have. We all are connected to. And I love that you mentioned that because you and I are both interested kind of like in the scientific research of the spirituality and like really understanding that because it's a great tool and it could be used as a great tool. However, they didn't have that back then.   Lindsay Goodwin (19:21) Thank   Absolutely.   Michelle (19:45) And so that just shows, and it's actually being proven just by itself, that just shows that there is an intelligence that we are connected to, that we can connect to without necessarily having to dissect it.   Lindsay Goodwin (20:02) Yep, absolutely. And I say this often too, if science was a silver bullet for everything, are people not able to get pregnant with IVF?   Michelle (20:12) Right. my God, such a good point.   Lindsay Goodwin (20:16) I mean, it works for a lot of people. I'm not anti Western medicine or modern medicine at all. I think it's great. I believe in integrative medicine. Yeah, absolutely. And that's, think what makes what we do so powerful too. We can see both sides of the coin and really help people to understand their bodies, but also understand that, wow, we've got this energy part that can't always be proven. Right. And so   Michelle (20:19) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Me too, yeah.   Yes, 100%.   Yeah.   Lindsay Goodwin (20:44) you know, it's just that's, that's what people want. That is where we are going as an energy collective as integrative. It's not, you know, one side, one sided, you know, this is an integrative process that's happening because science is great. mean, there's so many wonderful, just advantages to live in this time where we have science, because for example, if someone has   Michelle (20:52) Mm-hmm.   Yes, yeah, it's whole.   Lindsay Goodwin (21:13) Say they have a partner that has some sort of DNA issue with their sperm and if they get pregnant naturally, they've had several miscarriages and that's painful to go through. IVF would be a great option because then we can create an embryo that is healthy and then we have a healthy baby. They're not going through that emotional roller coaster. It's not just that. I'm just giving one example.   Michelle (21:20) Mm-hmm.   Correct.   Lindsay Goodwin (21:43) Okay, but when we're just saying that it's just one way or the other, it's making it very limited for people. And I don't think that that's fair. This is my opinion and I know that you're on the same page too. But like, this is what we are going to see further that we go into just where we're headed as just humans. People want more of the energy.   Michelle (21:43) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (22:11) options in health in general. You're moving away from being, I'm going to take this pill and that pill and I'm going to, you know, people don't want that anymore. I don't want that. I mean, you and I haven't been wanting that for years because we wouldn't be where we are if we did. And again, I'm not, I'm not knocking. I'm not talking bad about science. I think that, like I said, it's, it's wonderful. It does wonderful things.   Michelle (22:13) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah.   Lindsay Goodwin (22:38) but we have to open our mind a little bit more to things.   Michelle (22:41) For sure. There's definitely a place   for everything. And I think that as you're talking about that, I'm thinking about the neutrality aspect of it, looking at it objectively and saying, Hey, you know, this is one tool and then this is another tool. And sometimes this tool is a tool that can be very beneficial, but it shouldn't be the only tool because there are other tools like energetic that we don't necessarily see that can be very beneficial. And in fact, sometimes can enhance the, maybe the medical tools.   Lindsay Goodwin (22:49) the   Yeah, absolutely. Well, they have found studies, know, Harvard Medical School for, it was not contemporary medicine, but it's the alternative side of the medical school. They did a study where they found that they had two different groups. And the one group that followed a mind body, which what was included with that was meditations, mindfulness, as well as visualizations.   Michelle (23:38) Yeah.   Lindsay Goodwin (23:38) Hypnotherapy,   medical intuition, mean, all these energy modalities, they had a 55 % success rate of healthy babies, where the other group that didn't follow that particular program chose not to do it or just didn't do it the way that it was designed for them had about a 20 % success rate. So we really are seeing that when we are integrating, like you just stated, these mind-body techniques that   Michelle (24:07) Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (24:07) they can   really enhance these medical therapies that people are using with Western medicine like IVF.   Michelle (24:15) yeah, it is so powerful and I'm glad that finally there's attention put on it because I think that because it's so abstract, a lot of these visualizations or visualizations being different than what you just said, like which is more mindfulness, but in general, like getting into the state of our being that is more abstract. It's not something that we can easily dissect or it's not as tangible as others.   And I think for that reason specifically, it can be very easily ignored. So I love the fact that there is data showing the evidence of that working because it's powerful and I think it'll get more people on board to do that. And not only will it help their fertility, but it's also going to help their life.   Lindsay Goodwin (25:04) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, because you know, it's I have a lot of vivid dreams, one that I had earlier this year. And I'm not religious in any way. But I get messages in there what they are. And the message was is the kingdom is within you. And we all know that if people read the Bible, or they've seen that. And again, I'm not necessarily a pusher of the Bible by any means, I'm a spiritual person. So I don't push any sort of religion. So very open.   Michelle (25:22) Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (25:34) But, you know, it's interesting to me because when I was having this dream, it was a presence, it was a consciousness. And again, I think that this was source energy God, which is all of us anyway. It's we're not separate from that, like you stated. And so there was these all these lapis lazuli stones that were coming out of what I know to be my body.   Michelle (25:48) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Lindsay Goodwin (26:04) And I did not know, but in the Bible it states that Lapis Lazuli was made, that was what the throne of what God, I guess in the Bible, was actually made from. So it was very powerful and that shook me up. If the robbery and the out of body experience didn't, that one did, that we're all so powerful.   Michelle (26:04) Mm-hmm.   wow.   Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (26:33) And you   don't necessarily have to be having dreams like I do. I'm here to share these dreams. I'm here to share this information, just like you, to help people to realize that you have the power to create and be anything that you want. You have the power to heal yourself. And by no means disclaimer, am I recommending that people stop taking their medications or stop their treatment? But you do. You have the power, but it's   Michelle (26:55) Yes. Yeah.   Lindsay Goodwin (27:02) really starting to believe that and that can take some healing work, know, working with someone that can help you with that. But I always tell people when they work with me, we're not meant to work together forever. We're meant to get the work done that we're meant to do together and then you're going to be better and you're going to find your own magic. And then you're going to be able to help other people by you just being you. Yeah.   Michelle (27:04) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Yes, it does happen often.   And then what are some things, because we talk about the mind body and obviously there are certain techniques, like we talked about mindfulness. What are some techniques that people can look into that can help them utilize this incredible force of their mind?   Lindsay Goodwin (27:47) Yeah, absolutely. So techniques that I use would be hypnotherapy, which I know you use as well, Michelle, and neuro linguistic programming, which is NLP, which is being able to tap into the subconscious mind. It also is the study of body language. So it's the study like the FBI uses it to be able to solve cases and be able to tell if people are telling the truth or not.   Michelle (28:07) Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (28:11) Now that's a really powerful way to be able to work with somebody too, because sometimes you could even be lying to yourself, not even realize that you're doing it. So I'm able to see really, and it does not, we can be virtual, does not necessarily have to be in person. Energy has no barriers with us being across the world or across the country like you and I are. And so we can use these tools to be able to tell what's going on in somebody's subconscious mind.   Michelle (28:17) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (28:39) probably are not consciously aware of. So then what we do is I use different tools to be able to help them to learn how to reprogram those behaviors because the subconscious mind doesn't know the difference between real and fake. So if you're constantly unconsciously telling yourself, like I was stating before, that I don't know if I'm going to be a good parent. I don't know if this is going to work out for me. What if I've had clients, for example, that have had maybe their   Michelle (28:41) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (29:09) their mom had secondary infertility and they heard about that. I have one actually that's happened to and she did not even realize this. And then when she started working with me, we identified that her mom had secondary infertility when she was trying to have her. So she'd been constantly telling herself since she was about 12 years old that she was gonna have infertility, infertility, infertility. I have another client I worked with years ago that did IVF.   Michelle (29:23) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (29:36) And she had some of the lowest AMH that I've ever seen on somebody that was young. I mean, she was under 30. And she we identified and figured out that her aunt had infertility. And she had been telling herself over and over again, she was a little girl that she was going to have infertility. Well, she did one baby with IVF, all the other ones like three more three or four more came naturally. So once she got over that   that subconscious belief that she was going to have trouble with having a baby, then she just had babies naturally. So was something that she needed to get over in her journey. So NLP, Neuro Linguistic Program is really powerful. Visualizations are really powerful, mindfulness, meditation. I do a lot of visualization with my clients as well as helping them with their chakras, which are the energy centers located in the spine.   to really identify also my medical intuitive so really identify where there's imbalancing happening and then figuring out what emotions are attached to that what sort of traumas are attached to that for example a lot of women have a blocked throat chakra which when we have a blocked throat chakra yeah it is yeah yeah exactly that will block up the womb space   Michelle (30:47) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, and lapis lazuli is good for that.   And it's interesting how the thyroid impacts reproductive, organs and health.   Lindsay Goodwin (31:08) Yep. It's the biggest one. It's the biggest gland in that endocrine system. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, we could go into endocrinology and the spiritual. That's always fun. Yeah.   Michelle (31:19) Yeah, but also expression, know, so that expression   opening up the heart, heart opening up the uterus. I mean, there's so many aspects and that's the thing too with chakras is that yes, they each have their own indication and behaviors and patterns, but they also have an interlinking workings with each other.   Lindsay Goodwin (31:42) Yep. It's all connected just like the Chinese philosophers of Eastern medicine.   Michelle (31:48) Yeah. Amazing. This is so interesting. mean, I can talk to you for hours. I can keep talking about like everything, but I wanted to ask if people are interested. I know you have a new podcast, which is awesome. And so talk about your new podcast and also talk about how people can reach out to you if they want to work with you.   Lindsay Goodwin (31:53) same.   Yes.   Yeah, absolutely. So new podcast is fertile frequencies. I created that. Thank you. I created that because I really wanted to bring more of an integration of the unseen energies of the energies of spirit babies, energetic, spiritual fertility, which by the way, is not religious, it is spiritual, it's energy. Often that's a question that people will ask me about. That's kind of why I call it more energetic spiritual fertility. So people kind of understand this from an energy standpoint.   Michelle (32:13) I love that.   Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (32:40) And so really talking with people, giving you the encouragement on your fertility journey, knowing that this is manifesting for you, understanding more about your physical body, but knowing that your fertility is way more than just your physical body. So we do get into some of the dynamics of things like egg quality, as well as IVF, talking about nutrition, different supplements.   I do talk about that, but I'm more about the energy. I feel like there's a lot of information out there about the physical side of fertility. So a lot of great content creators, like people, and of course you have a great podcast as well, that are already doing that. So there's not enough of the energy. So yeah, so that is a lot if you're into that, which if you listen to Michelle's podcast, I'm sure that you are into the energy side of fertility.   Michelle (33:07) Mm-hmm.   Yep.   I agree.   Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (33:31) And so just started that, I'm gonna have some really great experts on there. I'd love to have you on there as well. That's coming up. So it's definitely getting bigger than I think I was expecting it to. I think it's just time. It's time for this message to be out. Yeah, it's aligned, exactly. I do have a fertility program coming out as well. Of course, it's coming out in this month.   Michelle (33:46) It's time. It's aligned. time.   Lindsay Goodwin (33:56) And then I do have a VIP fertility program where you can work one-on-one with me and I do design a unique fertility program for you that has the physical aspects in it, but I do walk you through, help you with changing some of those subconscious patterns, helping you to really manifest the healthy pregnancy that you're looking for. And if you're interested in that, I do offer a 45 minute call where we can go through the program and I can meet you and we can answer any questions. I can answer any questions that you have.   and see how I can help. I'm only going to work with people that I know I can help. So I'm very honest about that as well. I think integrity is a huge part of this. So first step is seeing if we're a good fit. And then I also have some free resources as well. If you'd like to, I have an ebook on fertility, some seven essential steps to download, an ebook download to help you with some of those essential steps getting started on your fertility journey, or if you're someone that   Michelle (34:30) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, for sure.   Lindsay Goodwin (34:55) has been trying for a while. That would be helpful as well. And I do have a fertility affirmations and meditation available that you can download that is a free download as well. definitely I'm now on Insight timer. So you can download it on there. Yeah. So yeah.   Michelle (35:09) Mm-hmm. awesome. Cool.   That's great. And all of Lindsay's information will be in the episode notes in case anybody wants to find it. Lindsay, I absolutely love talking to you. I feel so aligned with your way and method of teaching and also your perspective on fertility and health.   So it's always a pleasure talking to you. Happy new year. Well, right now it's, by the time this airs, it's going to be way past new year, but it is January 1st today. So thank you so much for coming on.   Lindsay Goodwin (35:34) you   Yeah.   Thank you so much, Michelle, and thank you to all of your listeners and so much love and encouragement. And just know that it's all happening for you.

On this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I dive deep into a fascinating and vital topic—how stress impacts the gut-brain connection and, in turn, your fertility health. We'll explore how chronic stress affects your nervous system, gut microbiome, and hormonal balance, and I'll share actionable tips to regulate your nervous system, support gut health, and optimize fertility. Tune in to learn how to empower your mind and body for a thriving fertility journey!     Takeaways   The gut and brain are connected via the vagus nerve, creating a two-way communication system that influences stress and digestion. Chronic stress diverts blood flow away from vital organs, impacting digestion, hormone balance, and fertility. Practices like diaphragmatic breathing, meditation, and ear massage can activate the vagus nerve, promoting a"rest and digest" state. A diverse and healthy gut microbiome supports hormonal health, reduces inflammation, and enhances fertility. Emotional stress drains the body's reserves and can lead to hormonal imbalances like lowered progesterone levels. Mindful eating habits, such as chewing food thoroughly and avoiding distractions, improve digestion and gut health. Acupuncture and other TCM techniques help regulate the nervous system and support overall fertility wellness.     For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Check out Michelle's Latest Book: The Way of Fertility! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility     Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/       Transcript:   [00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. On today's episode, I'm going to be talking about a topic that I've talked about before, but it's a little different. And I am going to be discussing stress and its impact on fertility. Now, I've spoken about stress before, we've had many, many different episodes talking about how stress can impact fertility, and I know a lot of people say, Oh, does it really impact fertility? Yes. When it gets broken down, absolutely, and indirectly in some ways. So today I'm actually going to be talking about the gut brain connection, how stress can impact the gut and how the gut. is super important for fertility health. So stay tuned. So I find this topic actually really, really fascinating because the [00:01:00] gut is super smart. Actually, it has its own nervous system and it's really fascinating just how it runs. And I tend to be really fascinated by the nervous system as it is. And I think that the nervous system is one of the things that We don't really pay that much attention to, but it really does make a difference on so many factors and so many things in our body. And really, it makes such a difference and influence on how we feel in our life and how we perceive the world as well. And if you really think about the influence of stress on the nervous system, then you can see how it really is a Such a direct relationship. Stress is really how our nervous system reacts and responds to the life around us. Now, I always say this, I've said this before, and I'm going to say this today again, is that it's not about   [00:02:00]eliminating stress or eradicating stress. As a matter of fact, stress can actually make us stronger. So having moments of stress, I mean, if you think about going to the gym and building muscle, One of the reasons why we get stronger is because of the stress and stress can also impact the bones and help the bones. So having that extra stress actually strengthens the bones. So stress can actually be something that can be alchemize to help our bodies to help our life like if you have difficulties or challenges in your life, you'll find that it actually makes you stronger and it makes you smarter and it gets you to think about things differently than you would have normally. And if you don't have that element of stress, then you don't really have that opportunity of growth. So stress is incredibly advantageous when it is not chronic when it's not all the time and we as humans and this is really like even how we learn about the body through Chinese medicine   [00:03:00] is that A lot of things in our bodies and a lot of things in nature run in pulses, it runs in rhythms. So when you have something all the time without that break, that's when it can lead to imbalance. So when you have like pulses of stress or things that come and go, That is when the body is able to have the pulse and then it goes back into a more yin phase. I've spoken about the yin and the yang, which are really two opposing opposites that need each other in order to create harmony and balance. And that harmony and balance is something that conventional medicine will say or call homeostasis. And homeostasis is basically a state that the body always strives for in order to thrive. And that is the ultimate. So homeostasis is that balance that keeps us in check. It keeps the hormones in check. It keeps everything in check. Now, in order to have that, we   [00:04:00] can't have too much yang or too much yin. We need the two. And this is how we have a pulse. A pulse is something that goes back and forth. and that back and forth is what keeps things in balance. So it can go back and forth, but then eventually grow into strength. So having that stress, but then having that recovery and that combination of the two is what actually gets us stronger. However, many cases our nervous system is hyper stimulated, hyper meaning over. So overstimulated by electronics, by sound, by things that are typically not occurring in nature if we were to be living really in accordance with nature and what we used to do in the past when we didn't have all these man made things like light at night or really loud noises from the garbage truck things that are   [00:05:00]really not Something that you find in nature sounds that you don't really hear in nature, bright lights that you don't see in nature, things that are not typical to what our bodies are actually programmed to be used to, and also to understand the process. So when we have that extreme hyper stimulation all the time, and now I'm not even talking about the emotional stress. I'm just talking about. So I'm going to talk about the stressors that we are exposed to day in and day out that also stimulate our nervous system. And by stimulating it all the time, it actually weakens it. It makes you more tired. So in Chinese medicine, we talk about excess and deficiency, and that's kind of like the yin and the yang. And when we have too much excess, it can lead to deficiency because the body has to process that excess. And when there's just too much coming at it at once, it can make it more deficient. Just think   [00:06:00] about a computer. If you're throwing in so many different software and really loading it up over time, it's going to get slower and it's going to get in the way of its ability to process signals and it takes a little longer to do things. So now that we covered that aspect of stress, there's also emotional stress, and if you notice, emotions actually take a lot of energy in the body, and so having that stress chronically of emotions, that drains the body of reserves, and it can also impact it. how we feel and impact the state of our brains. And it also has been shown to create a more incoherent state of brain waves. And that's been studied and observed in HeartMath Institute where they study the heart brain coherence. And it's really, really fascinating work because they're actually seeing that there's a relationship between the heart and the brain and the heart has   [00:07:00] always been in Chinese medicine said to house the brain, which is interesting because nobody really understood from a conventional medicine perspective, what that really meant. Or it was kind of like, okay, well that's, I guess their perspective on it or their theory. But now science is actually showing that that is really in fact true. And as a matter of fact, the heart acts as a brain and it can really pick up on things before the brain even picks up on them. So your heart is in a sense even more powerful than the brain itself. Now when it comes to the brain and stressors and impacts of the stressors on the brain, that can impact a fight and flight. response from your body. So we know one thing that's really fascinating is that there's a bi directional relationship between the brain and your gut. So your gut has its   [00:08:00] own nervous system and it's called the enteric nervous system. And your brain is connected to the central nervous system and that central nervous system gets information from the brain and it also receives information from the body. So how that is connected to the gut is through the vagus nerve. So the vagus nerve is kind of like playing operator and it has a bidirectional communication pathway from the enteric nervous system, which is our gut nervous system. And that basically runs from your mouth to your anus. So basically it runs throughout the whole thing and it has hundreds of thousands of neurons and that is pretty fascinating. But the fascinating thing is that it is connected via the vagus nerve to your brain and your brain connects with your gut. So when you have stressors that are impacting the integrity of the way your brain is   [00:09:00]functioning, when there are too many Difficulties and coherences  and dysfunctional stressors  that can impact your nervous system and also impact you to be more in a fight or flight situation. state, then that can impact your gut health as well. So when the vagus nerve is activated, the vagus nerve can get you into a more rest and digest state. And that rest and digest state is optimal for your digestive system. And that is what you want. You want your body to be in a state of where fluids can flow freely, because you'll find that if you are in a fight or flight State your mouth gets really dry. It's like the fluids get like dried up and  what happens is in those situations where your body perceives a danger, it knows that it can't focus on anything else, but the ability to run or to fight if you can't run. So what   [00:10:00] happens is your body automatically will start to send it. blood to the arms and to the legs and away from your organs. So that, where does that move away from? It moves away from your heart. It moves away from your liver. It moves away from all your internal organs, moves away from your digestion. It moves away from your uterus and your ovaries. And to have yourself be in a state that is chronically like that, it's going to impact how your body is going to nourish itself and regenerate. And that of course is going to impact your fertility health. So yes, stress can really, really impact fertility health. But a very big reason for why is also because it impacts your gut health. And your gut health is central to your fertility health. It can impact how your body is able to process nutrients, how your body is   [00:11:00] able to get energy, how your body deals with inflammation, and how your body's immune system operates. All things that contribute greatly to your fertility. fertility health. And it also impacts your body's microbiome, not just the gut microbiome, but it can also influence your vaginal microbiome and your uterine microbiome. So it can impact so many things and it's such a trickle effect. And that's the thing with a body that is so amazing, but also can be challenging for, you know, Sometimes conventional medicine to approach, because if you take pieces of the body or parts of the body and just focus on that part, you're just not going to get the full picture. And this is why I love Chinese medicine is because it looks at the full circle, the full picture and how all the different parts work together. And it's like a big, huge web that   [00:12:00] intercommunicates with each other. So when you start to realize that. You don't need to really figure it out all together, and that's a thing that I do want to stress in this. Um, no pun intended, but I do want to mention that ultimately all the things that I'm telling you is really to give you a big picture about it, but you don't have to figure out exactly how it works. It's really more an understanding. of really what stress can do to your gut. The reason I say this is because your body's actually really intelligent and your body knows what to do. So when you get it to a state where you regulate your nervous system, and I'm going to be sharing things and to do's towards the end of this. So you can keep listening to find out. But when you do get yourself to that state, Then your body knows exactly what it needs to do. You don't have to figure it out and you don't even have to tell the body what to do. The body already knows what to do. All it needs is an environment that feels   [00:13:00] safe for it to do so. Another thing to note is that the brain. not only impacts the gut, but the gut can also impact the brain. So the gut can also impact our ability to produce serotonin, which is a neurotransmitter that impacts your mood and overall wellbeing. So if you have any kind of issues with your gut, it can also impact the brain and that can create more stress. So it's bi directional. And that is what is so fascinating about this is that you can really impact your gut through your brain and you can impact your brain through your gut. So besides stress impacting your gut, I also want to mention that it can also elevate cortisol levels, which cortisol is a hormone and again, cortisol has a lot of benefits for the body as well, but you don't want it to be chronic. When it's chronic, it can suppress ovulation. It can also  Lower progesterone levels. So that's one of the   [00:14:00] reasons why somebody can have lowered progesterone is from high stress. And progesterone is really important. It's important for fertility, obviously, but it's really, really important for pregnancy. So to, in order to sustain a pregnancy, you need good, healthy amounts of progesterone. So, I wanted to mention a couple of really interesting studies and one of them was the study on Tibetan monks and what they did was they actually looked at the gut microbiome of those Tibetan monks and also neighbors and so basically what they found was that, um, the microbiome of the meditators and the microbiome of the neighbors. And they both ate similar foods. They were exposed to the same water. They lived in the same area. The only difference really was that the meditators meditated all day. And what they found was that the gut microbiome and the meditators was a lot more enriched and a lot more   [00:15:00] diverse than the ones of the neighbors. And that's pretty fascinating because What that shows you is that there are types of microbiome and what it looked like for the meditators is associated with a lot less risk of inflammation and risk of heart disease and lots of different. autoimmune conditions. So it protected them basically by having that enriched gut microbiome. It protected their bodies, but it also shows us that their meditations have something to do with the gut microbiome. Something else that I want to note Is if you've been listening to me, you probably are sick of hearing me talk about Dr. Joe Dispenza, because I absolutely have been so influenced by his work. And when I went to his retreat,  they basically studied the participants blood and their gut microbiome is one of the things that they study in brain waves and amongst many other things. And what they   [00:16:00] found was that when they take the stool samples of the participants from the beginning before they actually start the week long meditation retreat, they check their stools before and then they check it afterwards and they find that it's drastically different and it has way more diversity in their microbiome and it's associated with much better health. Okay. And so that's pretty fascinating. And that's something that I directly had experience to watching. So it seems like basically that through meditation and through mindfulness practices Or any kind of practices that lower stress that that can impact the gut microbiome, which is fascinating because then it gives us a lot of power. It gives us a feeling of empowerment that you really can make a difference in your gut just through your mind alone. Another really fascinating study that I found was that they   [00:17:00] had correlations between certain types of mental disorders and some of them were even mild depression or mild anxiety all the way leading to bipolar and other types that were more severe. And what they found was that there was an interesting pattern of the microbiome and it was a similar type of microbiome pattern where it showed some microbiome dysbiosis that related to the mental condition. that the person had. So depending on what it was, there seemed to be a pattern in their gut microbiome, which is another incredibly fascinating thing. And something that I also heard about was fecal implants, I don't necessarily suggest it. I think it's still an experimental phase, something that you might want to ask your doctor about if you really have gone through a lot, but. Definitely do your   [00:18:00] research because I know that it's not something that I think that it's not something without any risks at all. But what they found, which was fascinating about this, is that when they did the fecal transplant, the person would basically take a transplant of poop, it's kind of gross, from somebody who has a really good enriched microbiome. And they basically transplanted that poop from that person to the other person, who'd take the poop and put it back. into the person who had dysbiosis or issues with their gut. And what they found was that it influenced their gut health because what happened was that microbiome would start to populate and grow in numbers for the person that needed it. And they found that not only did it help in many cases with gut conditions, but it also helped with mental conditions. Um, it helped with ADHD and many other types of mental diagnoses. So it was [00:19:00] really, really, really fascinating that that can really make such a difference, but it can. So it is kind of cool to know this because then you realize that yes, I can approach this through the gut itself. Which a lot of people do, but many times people get so focused sort of on like the physical body that they ignore the mental body. And I find that I meet a lot of people, whether it's my clients or in person or online. where they have spoken to functional doctors, they know pretty much what supplements to take, what to eat, and they figured it all out and almost to a point where it caused them a lot of mental stress. But the focus was so much just on the physical that the mental was ignored. And it is something that is easy to ignore because. It's something that we don't really see, we can't touch, it's something that kind of operates behind the   [00:20:00] scenes, and most of the time, our eyes, when they're open, are focused on the world around us, so it's easier for us to focus on that. and not close our eyes and go within, which is what a lot of these mindfulness practices teach us. And this is actually something that I cover a lot in my book, the way of fertility, because I thought it was so important. What I found just really in working in this field is that That is the most ignored aspect of our being and it's because it can be actually really frustrating to deal with. It's frustrating to do something and work with something and focus on something that we can't really hold and it's not as tangible. And it feels like we have less control, but ultimately by doing so and allowing ourselves to experience that feeling, the feelings that come up with it, that's when we actually do start to feel   [00:21:00] more of a sense of control. So it's kind of like a little paradox in its own experience. but I do highly recommend looking into it. But I'm going to talk about not just the mindfulness aspect, but I'm also going to talk about really tangible ways that you can impact your nervous system. And of course I'm going to mention acupuncture. And that is something that I do. And acupuncture, is incredibly beneficial on regulating the nervous system. It works on your circuits, basically. I mean, to really say it in the most simplest way, obviously, acupuncture is a lot more complex than just calling it circuits, but it's really beneficial. To say circuits, it makes it easier for the mind to really envision. Do you basically have circuits in your body and that circuits and the pulses that the circuits bring, which is really the channels inside your body. When you're stimulating that with acupuncture, it can really help regulate   [00:22:00] the nervous system and basically restart that. And so what that does is over time and not in the beginning, sometimes in the beginning you could feel more tired, but over time it'll increase your energy. But also will help you feel calm at the same time. So I call it calm alert. And I love that combination when you're calm and you're alert, which is the opposite of like having a lot of coffee to try to like force yourself to have energy and then you're jittery. So no, no jitters, you're super alert, but you're also calm. It's like the perfect combination. So acupuncture can really support that in many different ways, not just by regulating your own patterns, but also by stimulating the channels and also by doing auricular therapy, which is really addressing the points on the ears. The ears are one area that make the vagus nerve accessible. The vagus nerve, which is that go between your brain and your gut is really, really important. , when it gets stimulated, it   [00:23:00] actually stimulates the rest and digest part of your nervous system. So that could be really, really impactful on your gut health. And so one of the ways that you could do this, so acupuncture is one of the ways, but one of the ways that you could do this at home is simply by massaging your ears every single day. You could do this at night and you could do this in the shower. Or you could do this whenever you remember to do it. But massaging your ears can almost immediately have an impact on the nervous system. So it not almost immediately. It actually does have that. So that's something that you might want to do. And while you're doing that, You can also do some deep breathing. So working that diaphragm. So diaphragmatic breathing where we're breathing from the belly, that's ultimately the best way to breathe. We are trained over time and conditioned to breathe through the ribs and. while   [00:24:00] the ribs are part of how we breathe, the most effective way to breathe is through the diaphragm. So you can practice this by putting your hand on your belly and feeling your belly go in and out and train yourself to do that. Get back into that. And you can actually train yourself to do that. I used to not do that. And I, Now I train myself to do that. That is just the way I breathe. It's not going to give you a huge belly. You know, people are so afraid of that, that they start to breathe the wrong way. And ultimately it helps oxygenate your body much better, but then also when you're doing some breathing exercises, it can also calm the vagus nerve. One of the ways to do this is by inhaling to four counts, holding your breath and then exhaling to eight counts. So when you exhale longer than you inhale, you get yourself into a more rest and digest mode.   [00:25:00] If you have issues sleeping at night, this is a great exercise to do and you could literally combine that with massaging your ears and also slowing down your breath and holding it on the inhale and holding it a little bit on the exhale. So controlling that breath. And then filling up the lungs all the way and then exhaling all the air out. Another thing that you can do is hum. So humming that vibration sound from your throat can actually impact and stimulate the vagus nerve. So that's another way to stimulate the vagus nerve. And generally speaking, things like yoga, qigong, and movement that becomes more conscious can also regulate your nervous system. And you can also, as you're laying down, if you have any issues falling asleep, you can also do something called Yoga Nidra. You can find many different ones on YouTube   [00:26:00] where they guide you through focusing on the different parts of your body. But becoming aware of your body sensations is another way to really make that strong connection between your brain and your awareness and your body. So that is really what I have for the mind. But then when it comes to your gut, you could do a lot of things too, to support your mind and to support your gut. And so my number one rule for this, number one, is chew your food. Chew your food so that it becomes complete mush. And I remember hearing, when I was studying Ayurveda, I remember hearing my teacher shared this quote, and I was like, oh my god, this It's true. And he said, drink your food and eat your drink. So I'm like, okay, you know, it's kind of weird to hear the first time you hear about it, but drink your food, meaning you choose so well that you basically have a smoothie   [00:27:00] in your mouth, ready to like swallow like a drink. And then also taking your time with it. The drinks and the soups and kind of giving yourself a little more time in your mouth because what happens is Your saliva has these amazing enzymes that help break down your food Once it enters your gut so that is the first process and probably the most important because you want to start that foundation of digestion right and that foundation starts with mastication which is chewing and combining that with with your saliva. So not only liquefying it, but also liquefying it with liquid gold, which is digestive enzymes that you're able to really get into the food so that the food is able to process and the digestive system doesn't have as hard of a time doing what it does because the digestive system process is actually very energy   [00:28:00]consuming and that is one of the reasons why we need to rest and digest. We get more tired after we eat because our bodies need energy in order to digest. So when you're doing that, you're actually making it easier and creating a much more efficient digestive process. Secondly, if you're going to have proteins, Combine them with vegetables or some fibers so that you're able to process it and really chew it. But also the biggest, most difficult to digest meals should be eaten when the sun is strongest outside. What that does is that our bodies respond very much to the environment and it will respond to that digestive fire. So having that sun very strong will impact our Agni, which is the digestive fire, and that will impact how we're able to process food. And I also suggest eating less at night. As the sun goes down, your   [00:29:00] digestive system also starts to sleep. So it's important during that time to go easy. And you can have soups, steamed vegetables, really, really light meals at night. and then allow your stomach and your digestive system a little fasting time in the evening before you go to sleep. Your sleep is going to be a lot better because again, all that energy that usually goes into digestion can go into repair, into balancing hormones, into replenishing your body as you sleep. Plus your sleep will be deeper and better if you, don't have too much in your stomach. I also highly suggest getting on a good probiotic. And the one I like, and again, it really depends on your gut condition because you might need different protocols, but the company I like is microbiome labs and they do gut testing. They also do,   [00:30:00] they have lots of different supplements. Megasporbiotic is the most common one  for people with really complex digestive issues, they might benefit from going with something a little more gentle than Megasporbiotic and doing like a one strain in the beginning so their body gets used to it. But I highly recommend their products because they are really, really top notch. And lastly, you could do this while you shower, you could do this after your shower, massaging your belly is one of the most impactful things, not just for your gut, but it can also impact your uterus and get more blood flow to that area. So really just massaging in clockwise circles. So as you're looking at your belly, circle around your belly button and you can do a wide circle until you get closer to the belly button and then go wide again and then go back and forth like that. Then you can go   [00:31:00] from the top of the rib cage down to the belly button and then from your pubic bone up and from the sides towards the center of your belly button and diagonal. And really you are intuitive and your hands are intuitive. So your hands will figure out how it feels good to massage your belly. So you can press in certain points that feel like it needs more movement or if it feels stagnant and you'll get to feel what you need because that's ultimately what happens when we start to connect with our bodies. And lastly, just a really good habit to get into is mindful eating, becoming aware of what you're eating and not doing other things like watching TV or being on your phone, just sitting and looking at your food because you do start salivating when you look at your food. Looking at your food is also the beginning of digestion. So becoming mindful with your food, also tasting your food, chewing your food, and     [00:32:00] becoming aware of how certain foods make you feel and really connecting with that because that will connect you to intuitive eating, where you intuitively know what is good for you and what is not good for you. So that concludes today's episode, and I hope you enjoy this. To me, this is a really fascinating topic, and it's something that I think a lot of people should really give attention to, because the mind and the gut are really both important things in life. when it comes to your fertility health. And it also will help the process so that you don't feel as stressed and you feel more ready and equipped to get through this. because we know the fertility journey is challenging as it is. So I hope you feel more empowered with this message. And if you guys feel connected to the content that I am sharing, please subscribe. And I would be so grateful   [00:33:00] for a review. Thank you so much for listening in and I hope you have a beautiful day.

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Vida Delrahim and Ronit Menashe share their personal journeys from corporate careers to founding WeNatal, a company focused on improving fertility through better prenatal supplements. They discuss the importance of addressing both male and female health in the preconception phase, the science behind their product formulations, and the need for education and resources for couples trying to conceive. Their mission is to empower individuals with knowledge and high-quality supplements to enhance fertility outcomes.   Takeaways Ronit and Vida met at Nike and became best friends. Ronit's experience in functional medicine changed their trajectory. Miscarriages led them to explore fertility solutions more deeply. Men contribute to 50% of miscarriages due to sperm quality. WeNatal was created to support both partners in fertility. Their prenatal supplements are designed for bioavailability and effectiveness. They focus on simplifying the supplement process for women. Education is key in supporting couples on their fertility journey. Their blog offers valuable resources for those trying to conceive. They emphasize the importance of quality ingredients in supplements.   Guest Bio:   Ronit Menashe and Vida Delrahim are the founders of WeNatal, a prenatal supplement company that is transforming the fertility space with the first prenatal supplement optimized for her AND him. WeNatal's mission to change the narrative surrounding fertility and reproductive health is personal; after suffering miscarriages a week apart, Ronit and Vida were given little direction on what to do differently. More importantly, the health of Ronit and Vida's partners(including the health of their sperm) was completely missing from their fertility dialogue with their doctors… something had to change. That is why WeNatal was born, to shift the fertility journey from "me" to "we.” WeNatal is revolutionizing the prenatal space and backed by industry leading Functional Medicine doctors, nutritionists, and fertility experts, including Dr. Mark Hyman and Kelly LeVeque. With 24 key clean, bioavailable nutrients, WeNatal steps up where other supplements fall short for all things preconception to postpartum for both parents and baby.     Websites/Links:    Free Preconception Guide:  WeNatal.com/guide     https://www.instagram.com/we_natal/?hl=en   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Check out Michelle's Latest Book: The Way of Fertility! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast for Neat and Vita.   Vida Delrahim (00:02) Thanks for having us. We're so excited to be here.   Ronit Menashe (00:04) So happy to be here.   Michelle (00:06) Yes, so happy to have you guys. And I know that you guys have such an interesting story, first of all, on how you met and also the experience you guys went through together. So without giving anything away, I would love for you guys to share your stories, your personal stories and how that eventually led you to doing your passion project.   Vida Delrahim (00:26) Yeah, I'd love to. So it's fun story because we never envisioned to be in the supplement space. And in fact, Ronit and I met in our corporate careers at Nike close to 18 years ago and became best friends and really just kind of embarked in life together. Ronit went on to work in the functional medicine space and we should all thank our lucky stars that she did because it kind of completely changed our trajectory. So.   I had a miscarriage right when she was having her first daughter. And of course the answers we were given were very dismissive. They were typically like very common, keep trying, you're lucky you even got pregnant, could be the stress, could be a slew of things. They just kind of shove you along as part of the process. And I didn't know any better, of course, having my first and Ronit was actually in the functional med space, immersed and kind of taught me things like, have you checked your thyroid? Have you done this? Have you done that?   Lo and behold, I had Hashimoto's, I didn't even know about it. Just that simple act of fixing my thyroid with medication and visiting an endocrinologist allowed me to have a healthy baby girl. And then fast forward to 2020, I had another miscarriage. And a week after, Ronit had one. And I think this was, it happened a week apart. This was a little bit shocking because...   Like I kind of just accepted that this stuff happens, but Ronit working alongside Dr. Mark Hyman, who's very amazing functional practitioner, she was all about the root cause. She was all about the answers and the questions and the answers she was given was very similar, but she wasn't willing to accept that. Like, you know, there's nothing you can do as an answer.   Michelle (02:02) Mm-hmm.   Ronit Menashe (02:03) And I think for me, Michelle, the reason why it was so shocking was because I was a huge fan of functional medicine for so many years and I already was doing all of the things, or at least I thought I was. I had already cleaned out my house from plastics. I had already, you know, was eating organic food. I was focusing on movement. I was taking pretty good supplements.   or at least what I thought was good supplements. And I was shocked. And when I started to dive into the root of what was happening, because it didn't make sense to me that my doctor said, there is nothing you could do to improve your fertility, literally. It is just common, just keep trying. I thought that makes zero sense. And I'm gonna learn about how to improve my egg quality. I thought.   Michelle (02:48) Mm hmm.   Ronit Menashe (03:01) It was a net quality issue. was 41 at the time. That's what made sense to me. And my biggest aha was when I learned that 50 % of miscarriages happen because of sperm quality. And that was when I called Vida and I said, Vida, did you know that men contribute to 50 % of miscarriages and that 50 that   that sperm quality is easily improved using antioxidants like CoQ10 and AC. In fact, studies after studies show that when men take an antioxidant blend in high dose bioavailable forms, they can quadruple their chances of their partner getting pregnant and having a live birth. So,   That was our big light bulb moment when we thought like, my God, we need to create a prenatal for men. And we need to scream this from the rooftops that men have a huge role, huge role in improving fertility outcomes and pregnancy outcomes for their families. And that was where we started our journey.   Michelle (04:13) It is so important. can't even like tell you. It's so crazy because I have people that go to their doctors and so many times they don't even check the men. And also the DNA fragmentation, which is a whole other thing. Cause like, yeah, you can have perfect sperm numbers and motility and morphology. But if the DNA is off and that can get really impacted by the antioxidants,   then that can make a big difference on so many things on IVF, is so expensive too. So I love that you guys bring this up. It's so important.   Vida Delrahim (04:50) It's so important and how is it that we're so far in like medicine and women's rights, but like yet the burden of fertility still solely is falling so Ronit and I knew that was like the beginning of our mission that one, women and men deserve better products because we can talk about how   once we uncover the fertility and the supplement space, we learn so much, but also that they both need to be leveling up their health. They both need to be part of the conversation. And WeNatal was really born to really level up both partners and bring them together during this journey and give them the best tools and the best nutrition to level up their health in this crucial timeframe, which is preconception.   Michelle (05:32) For sure, and we're neat. So you had a different background and you changed your career like me.   Ronit Menashe (05:38) Well, my background was in marketing. That's where Vida and I met at Nike. And I fell in love with functional medicine when I got into CrossFit and I learned about the Paleo diet. And then I learned about functional medicine. And then I started to do, you know, become, I became a functional medicine patient myself. And this was a year before, you know,   we need years before we natal. And I just fell in love with this idea of medicine of the root cause. And once you learn it, you can't unlearn it. Like that's how you think about everything. It's like, even when, you know, your child has a tantrum nowadays, you're like, okay, like it's not them. Is it there? Is it that they're tired? Is it that they're hungry? Is it that they had sugar? You know, you, you   Michelle (06:27) you   Bye.   Ronit Menashe (06:35) learn about root cause medicine, you realize it, you know, that just everything is connected. And so for me, that was, you know, a big change in my career because I was focused more on marketing. And then I wanted to get into the functional medicine space. I took Chris Kresser's adapt course and, know, kind of started to learn about becoming a practitioner, but   it ended up serving me very well when I met Dr. Mark Hyman and I worked on his private practice and worked on his private practice more from like operations. And then I worked with him on his book launches. So still kind of like in the business side of things, marketing side of things, but more focused on this space that I love so much, which is functional integrative medicine.   Michelle (07:26) That's amazing. so I'm sure with that background, and also realizing that there is a need for this. It really inspired you to do, to have this supplement company.   Ronit Menashe (07:38) 100%. We spoke to Dr. Hyman when we first came up with the idea and he said, I always treat the man when a woman comes to me with infertility. And so what we wanted to do with WeNatal is be able to give everybody access to this kind of functional medicine approach, which essentially means optimizing male fertility and female fertility before trying to conceive.   what it looks like is nourishing your body and kind of, creating that optimal soil for conception. And, know, we always say when you improve your health, you're improving your fertility. And when you're improving your fertility, you're improving your health. And we hear from so many customers that, you know, let's say men, for instance, they're taking we natal for him. And all of a sudden they have a libido all of a sudden.   They have energy, they focus, their hair is growing. So that's kind of the side effects and the byproduct of working on improving your sperm and egg quality is you actually also feel good when you're nourished. You feel good when you're depleted from nutrients. Of course, you're going to be tired. And so many people just accept   this notion of like, I'm getting older so I should be tired or I'm getting older I should be losing my hair or I'm postpartum I should be   Michelle (09:06) Like it's normal,   normal versus common.   Vida Delrahim (09:08) Exactly.   Exactly.   Ronit Menashe (09:09) Exactly. Exactly. So   yes, these things are common, but they're not normal. And Vida and I just, you know, had this like life circumstance where we realized like it's our mission now to educate people on the importance of preconception, that there is so much you could do as a couple. He needs to be part of the equation. And when we started WeNatal, we didn't know if the men would be into it, but we're happy to say   Our we-natal men are amazing. We have so many incredible couples that are doing this together from day one. And we're always saying like, they're gonna be the best dads. If they are participating in fertility so early, they are amazing parents already.   Michelle (09:56) So yeah, for sure. And talk about like the different ingredients or the and what they do when it comes to both egg and sperm quality. And you can take your time on this   Ronit Menashe (10:08) for sure. Well, you know, here's the thing. We didn't think that the world needed another prenatal for women because there are so many prenatals out there, thousands. know, and. But when we started to dive into it and particularly for us, we were taking these packets made out of plastic that had seven pills in them.   And we just thought women deserve better. Why do they need to take seven pills? Why do they need to throw out plastic every day? Like we care about creating these healthy little humans. What about the environment? there was that. Then when we looked at the lower level prenatals, we noticed that a lot of the ingredients were not bioavailable. So what does that mean?   not everybody could utilize the nutrients that are part of those prenatals. So let's use folic acid as an example. When a prenatal has folic acid, that is the synthetic form of folate, which a lot of prenatals on the market, like if you go to a CVS or a Target, they have folic acid. And if somebody has the MTHFR genetic mutation,   They cannot utilize that folic acid. And so that nutrient is actually harmful to them. So for we natal, all of our nutrients are bioavailable. They're all in the methylated B form. like methyl folate or 5MTHF. So first of all, we have bioavailability. Second of all, comprehensiveness.   A lot of the prenatals on the market have 12-ish ingredients. We have 24 nutrients and we wouldn't leave one nutrient out. And it's very important because each and every one of our nutrients that are in our prenatal serves a very specific purpose for mom and baby and health of the pregnancy. And then you have...   dosages because even if something has 24 key ingredients like we natal the Dosages make a big difference. So using choline as an example choline We natal has 400 milligrams choline is crucial for baby brain development and the research shows that a pregnant woman needs 450 milligrams and a lactating woman needs 550 milligrams the average   Choline intake in the American diet, which you get choline from egg yolks is around 180. So we natal has 400 to be able to support that postpartum mom and obviously the pregnant mom, but there are prenatals on the market that have 50 milligrams. Now this is crucial for cognition of baby, brain mass, baby brain development.   Michelle (13:15) Mm-hmm.   Ronit Menashe (13:22) And so we were like, we have to create a prenatal for us because what we were doing is we were taking that base prenatal. We were adding choline. We were adding vitamin D. We were adding folate. We were adding iron. And most women are not going to do that. Most women are not going to, you know, take 10 plus pills a day and spend all that money on   all of these nutrients. We were doing it because we were immersed in the research and we saw how important these nutrients were. But we wanted to create a product that made it simple and easy for women and men to take their prenatal. Our packaging is beautiful and the reason is, well, first of all, we love nice things, but also,   Michelle (14:15) Thank   Ronit Menashe (14:16) We   wanted it to be part of people's home, people's life. So they're not hiding their prenatals in their, you know, cabinets that they can take it every day because consistency, like everything in health and wellness, consistency is what's going to make the biggest difference. And so that's kind of from a high level. And then, you know, you asked me what's in the prenatal and we can geek out a little bit more on the nutrients and what they do.   But what's not in the prenatal is also a big, big key because a lot of supplements on the market have a ton of additional ingredients and those ingredients are harmful for fertility and just overall health. And so it's important. We always say it's important to look at the nutrition facts.   but also look underneath the nutrition facts like what else is in there that shouldn't be in there and we natal doesn't have any additional fillers. And we do that because we manufacture in smaller dosages. We're not manufacturing in mass. Our shelf life is only two years where it's not like some prenatals that their shelf life is forever.   which, you know, for us, we're fine. We're doing things in smaller batches. And, you know, from a business perspective, it complicates things, definitely complicates Vida's life because she's on the operation side of things, but we're doing the right thing for the consumer. And that's what matters to us the most.   Michelle (15:43) .   So I know that like for my patients, for example, I'll give them certain supplements, preparing, including a prenatal, but then I'll also add more supplements that I don't necessarily have them continue taking after they're pregnant. So some that are more like to beef up the quality of the eggs. Do you guys have different ones or is it like certain? Yeah.   Vida Delrahim (16:13) Mm-hmm.   Ronit Menashe (16:16) Yes.   Yes. So we have our foundation support, which is the prenatal for him and for her. That is the multivitamin for men slash sperm support. And for women, it's the prenatal that has key nutrients for before, during, and after. But for those who want to beef up their egg quality, and we could talk about the scenarios in which you would need this product or not.   Michelle (16:35) Mm-hmm.   Ronit Menashe (16:44) We have a product that we launched this year called Egg Quality Plus, and it's five nutrients in one. So it's the five nutrients that we were taking after our miscarriage, CoQ10, NAC, PQQ, alpha lipoic acid, and L-carnitine. And what these nutrients do is they help improve egg quality. How do they do it?   Michelle (16:49) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Ronit Menashe (17:12) These nutrients are very specific nutrients that help improve mitochondria. We know that the three months before you ovulate, the egg that you ovulate with is going through all these processes that are very complex that require very strong mitochondria. So your mitochondria is like the battery of the cell. And if the battery is low,   that process is not gonna go well and you're gonna end up with chromosomal abnormalities. So it's important to quote unquote charge the battery before you start trying so that when that process does take place, it happens with no or limited errors, if that makes sense. So we recommend for women who are either older or maybe had recurrent miscarriages or   Michelle (18:00) Yeah.   Ronit Menashe (18:09) Just wanna know that they did everything possible in the preconception timeframe to take Egg Quality Plus with our prenatal, which the prenatal also includes nutrients that help improve egg quality like folate, vitamin D. By the way, 4,000 I use a vitamin D. I don't think any prenatals on the market have that. And then, you you talked about in the postpartum phase, like for us,   what was very important to include in our prenatal is iron because in the postpartum phase and in third trimester, a lot of women are very depleted from nutrients because you require more iron in that timeframe and just to help with postpartum recovery and all of those things. So our prenatal has iron in it as well.   So what we wanted to do with the prenatal is be able to simplify people's lives and give them a tool that they can use before, during, and after. Then if somebody wants that extra boost, they could get that Egg Quality Plus B4. And that's kind of the philosophy. We wanna make it simple and easy. And the other thing that I didn't mention is our prenatal dosage is three pills a day. And so...   Michelle (19:13) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm   Ronit Menashe (19:31) We just don't think it's realistic to ask women to take eight pills plus per day for their prenatal, especially in their first trimester when they're nauseous and they're throwing up and they can barely stomach any food.   Michelle (19:41) Yep. yeah, for sure.   And then as far as the iron, I know there's many different forms of iron and some can cause constipation. So I just wanted to ask about that.   Ronit Menashe (19:53) Yeah, so the forms, we didn't get into the like real geekiness of our forms, but every single one of our forms are the best form that we can find. And we use a patented iron that doesn't constipate called ferrochell. And we do the same with some of our other ingredients, like our choline is microencapsulated. Every, our selenium is this like super special selenium.   Every single one of our nutrients is sourced from the best of the best because we feel like women deserve the best. This is such an important time in people's lives and the nutrients really make a big difference and can make or break your journey.   Michelle (20:43) I love that. I love that you're really putting attention to detail because it does make such a difference. And the thing is the thing, the reason why I'm asking also is just from my perspective as a practitioner, I'm always looking for supplements that can address so many issues. And what I find myself doing is getting a bunch of different things and then having to give so many different supplements and so many different bottles. So I love the fact that you guys have   this really like thought out. It's really nice.   Vida Delrahim (21:16) Well, that's essentially what   Ronit was doing with me when we were on this journey together. She was AKA my doctor. And she's like, look at all the research shows that you need add iron you add this and so it ended up being I don't know Roni at some point I swear it was like 1215 maybe capsules because of all the additions some of it was drops. I could not keep up Ronit was a champion at taking supplements she could like down 10 at a time. I was nursing a couple meal   Michelle (21:41) Yeah.   Vida Delrahim (21:43) And of course   I wouldn't even comply. And so that was when also the idea of we need to like the ease and simplicity is so important. We're all busy, but we want to know that we're giving our body the best nutrients. I had guilt about not taking enough because I literally just couldn't down pills as quickly as some people can. And so the fact that we're able to get these 24 quality bioavailable ingredients into three capsules took us years. And we're so proud of that because it is the nutrient density of six to eight capsules in three.   And so that's what we were doing. We realized it wasn't feasible for everybody. Not everyone is at a road who can just chug them along. We realized this world had to be reinvented.   Michelle (22:23) yeah, for sure. Well, this is great. mean, lots of great information. I'm looking at your website right now, actually. Yeah, you guys definitely, it looks like you guys did a lot of research and you also have a blog, which is great. Cause I think it's so important to educate people that are on this journey.   Ronit Menashe (22:44) Well, that is exactly what we didn't have. It's so hard to reliable information that you can trust. And so we have an amazing blog and we put out so much great content on literally any topic under the sun from what to do if you just got diagnosed with gestational diabetes to, okay, how do you create a clean nursery to you know how to you know the fertility crisis you know we span everything on the blog and we share about it in our newsletter and we have an amazing guide with nine preconception tips if your listeners want to go to we natal.com slash guide they get our free couples guide and it's a really great starting point and a lot of the things that couples could do to support their fertility is free it doesn't have to be like   complicated or fancy. It's a lot of like free things. And so that guide is a really great resource.   Michelle (23:50) Awesome. Well, this is great information and you guys, this isn't a sponsored episode. It really is me wanting to find out more because there are amazing new things out there. And I think that it's important to hear all the different perspectives and really get it from the founders. So thank you guys so much for coming on and for people who are looking to learn more, how can they find you guys?   Ronit Menashe (24:19) They on we natal.com our website on social. We're very active and that's where we also share a lot of the new research at we underscore natal. And also we're happy to hear from your listeners. Anybody has questions or needs help or needs us to point them in the direction of some something or some article they can DM us at our, on our Instagram where we're most active.   Michelle (24:49) Awesome. Well, I loved this conversation and I loved all the details and the nerdy aspects of it because for me, I really liked the breakdown. think one thing that I find is that you want to find the smartest audience. It's usually a fertility audience. They're so smart because they do so much research on their own health and they really look into much more than the doctors give them. so,   So I know that they like to find out really detailed information. So thank you for that. And thank you so much for coming on today.   Vida Delrahim (25:26) Thanks for having us. We're excited to support you and your community.   Michelle (25:31) Awesome.   Ronit Menashe (25:31) Thanks, Michelle.  

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I dive into the nuances of positive thinking and why it can sometimes be counterproductive during the fertility journey. While positive thinking is often praised, it can sometimes invalidate our true feelings, create shame, and hinder emotional flow. I share insights from both personal experiences and the principles of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM), emphasizing the importance of emotional authenticity and achieving a state of neutrality to support fertility and overall well-being.   Takeaways:   Toxic positivity can be harmful. It may invalidate genuine emotions and create shame or pressure to feel a certain way. Neutrality is key. Balancing yin and yang allows for emotional flow and supports both mental and physical well-being. Emotions are energy. Observing and processing emotions without judgment promotes natural healing and balance. Practical tools: Meditation, mindfulness, journaling, and therapies like acupuncture can help create flow and harmony. Limit external pressures. Set boundaries and curate your environment to avoid triggers, allowing for peace and authenticity.   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   [00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Today I am going to be talking about why positive thinking isn't always so positive, especially when it comes to the fertility journey and why it could sometimes be a trap. So stay tuned. So today I want to discuss the hidden pitfalls of positive thinking when it comes to your fertility journey and why it is not always as positive as we intend for it to be. So there's a good reason why positive thinking or the movement of positive thinking has made such a huge impact on a lot of people. And you'll hear a lot about it. When it comes to so many different things when it comes to work when it comes to your body when it comes to like so many things and The reason why I think it is so impactful is the aspect of it of really guiding our minds [00:01:00] to the possibilities of things happening and There's definitely benefits to that However, it could be a trap. It could be a trap to think positively and I'll explain why, especially when it comes to the fertility journey. Sometimes it can actually make things worse.   So, you may have heard of the term or the phrase, Toxic positivity. So yes, anything can become and turn into something unhealthy, even positivity.   You may have been in a situation where you were trying to explain how you were feeling to somebody you really care about, and you just needed to get A load of emotions off your chest. And as soon as you do that, the person says, well, you know, maybe it's this, maybe it's that, or trying to sort of shift the way you're looking at things. And then you find yourself feeling worse.   The likelihood of why you were feeling [00:02:00] so bad is because in so doing in, you know, the good intention of your friend or your family member to try to get you to just stay positive or, another example is going to a dinner party and being told, Oh, you know, people sometimes at the last minute when they start to feel relaxed, that's when they start to get pregnant. So you get stories like that over and over again, but the reason why it could be so detrimental and it can actually have an impact that's the opposite is because you start to feel invalidated for your feelings and you're not feeling like whatever it is that you're experiencing is valid and you shouldn't feel that way. And there's almost an element that sometimes can turn into a level of shame you. In feeling that you can't just feel how you're feeling without, I guess, a positive judgment. So positivity, just like [00:03:00]negativity, it could be a judgment on something. And it can also get you into a state where you don't really feel authentic. You're feeling like you have to be a certain way and that doesn't come from where you're truly feeling. It doesn't really align with how your current state is. So when you're constantly going against yourself, then it can cause you to feel worse.   So ultimately the reason why you would even implement anything as positive thinking is to feel better.   So when you're trying to implement something that you don't really feel aligned with, then it can add an extra added pressure to your already pressure filled journey trying to conceive. So then on top of all of that, you feel shame or bad or guilt for feeling negative emotions. And these negative emotions are actually very normal emotions to have. And sometimes you start to beat yourself up because you think to [00:04:00] yourself, well, is it because I wasn't being positive that I'm not conceiving? Am I not being positive enough to make my fertility work? And then it gets you onto this whole other rabbit hole of thoughts and ideas that again, only make you feel worse.   So let's just look into why those things make you feel worse. It's because you are feeling your truth of emotions and regardless of it feeling, I guess, negative, but again, that's a judgment. By denying that, by saying, by putting that judgment of this is a negative feeling and I have to feel much better, then there's pressure and there's also resistance that's being created.   In regards to what is for you in this present moment. So rather than putting judgments on anything that you're going through emotionally, and rather than looking at emotions as inherently good or bad, allow them just to be what they[00:05:00] are. And this is one of the things that is so powerful about a mindfulness practice is that we're not trying to suppress anything.   You're just allowing things to be. And so emotions can be like energy. And this is one of the reasons why Chinese medicine, the way we focus on the body and the thing that actually heals the body. Is creating a sense of flow. So when you're taking something and you're either constricting and you're not really aligning, you're resisting or you're attaching too much, then you're not allowing a state of flow and you're not allowing this state of yin and yang balance. So suppressing or denying emotions positivity can actually create an emotional backlog and it can lead to increased stress and even physical symptoms. that the fertility journey can often come with grief. It can come with anger. It can come with frustration. It can come with fear.   All these feelings deserve to be acknowledged and processed just like anything in [00:06:00] life. So if those things are suppressed, that is not true positivity. On the other hand, allowing yourself to feel the feelings and go through the motions and allowing them to move as their normal progression is naturally that can allow a spontaneous feeling of joy from that release of emotions. So there's a difference between trying to force joy and trying to force positivity than to be in a natural spontaneous state of joy. by allowing yourself that space and that freedom of allowing yourself to really just truly freely express yourself.   Now that doesn't mean to express yourself by hurting other people. You know, there's, everything's in a balance. So you use your expression in a way that doesn't really harm other people or doesn't impact other [00:07:00] people other than allowing them to be part of your journey or being there as a support but really processing emotions in a healthy way. Sometimes this means going and seeking therapy from a qualified professional and ideally somebody who really understands your specific needs. So it could be , somebody who specializes in fertility, wellness, so it's important to have somebody who's really trained in that specific specialty.   And I also want to note that processing emotions is very distinct from staying in those emotions. So there's a difference between allowing emotions to move through because naturally if you really allow emotions to go freely they're gonna come and go and they're not gonna stay stagnant. When you find yourself almost persisting in those states of emotions all the time, that too is not a natural state.   [00:08:00] That's actually forcing yourself to stay in it because either we feel shame or we feel we deserve to feel that way or that we don't personally allow ourselves to move through it until we get that object of desire, in the case of fertility, it's conceiving. And what happens is even if you do get conception and conception occurs, you'll realize that through that stagnation of emotions, that once you do get what you desire, those emotions don't necessarily go away.   And that actually takes a lot of people by surprise as well.   Processing emotions definitely requires us to be accepting of our state, accepting of what is in this moment, accepting how we feel in this moment, and really truly like giving ourselves that self compassion and that full acceptance of us. in our state, how we are in this moment, and when we do so, we're allowing the process to happen and unfold as it needs to naturally.   But it is [00:09:00] important to either get proper support if need be, depending on how extreme those emotions are and depending on if we don't feel like we can get through it by ourselves. And it's very important not to have shame around that and to be able to ask for help when we need it.   So taking this to ancient Chinese philosophy and really the Tao, which is what Chinese medicine is based on. If you haven't heard the earlier podcasts that I've had where I talk about the Dow and I talk about how it really translates as the way and allows life to flow best in the state of balance and not extremes.   So those are things that are really important. So being too positive is actually considered an extreme. Having something where it's not natural for us and we're kind of forcing a smile is considered an extreme. It's not considered a state of balance If you look at it from a [00:10:00] Chinese medicine perspective and ultimately it's really realizing that there is no good or bad when it comes to emotions and there is no good or bad when it comes to states. The best possible harmonious state that you can be in is allowing both the yin and the yang, which are complete opposing forces to harmonize and work to balance each other together in complementaries.   And really understanding that yin represents stillness, receptivity, coolness, it's more inert, and yang represents . activity, action and heat. And so many times through the fertility journey, we can be very proactive. We want to do a lot and sometimes we're feeling the feelings that we have. We can go into a yin state and allow ourselves to process that and to be in stillness and to be giving ourselves that space to process whatever it is [00:11:00] that we need to go through, knowing that this harmony, there is no good and bad, and that really ultimately it's about listening to our hearts and allowing what is in its full entirety with no judgment.   So you may be asking, where do I go from now? I don't want to feel horrible. I don't want to feel like this difficulty. And I want to think positively because thinking positive can help. Improve physicality and it can help improve a lot of things. And yes, there is truth to that.   Absolutely. But it's important to keep it in balance. And ultimately what a lot of the ancients say in a lot of ancient traditions is really neutrality is key to flow. So neutrality  is the ultimate state. of yin and yang balance. So when you have both opposites harmonizing, you create a neutrality and that neutrality, that homeostasis is the key to flow [00:12:00] and that allows the flow of your divine intelligence in your mind and your body. And when I say your mind, those are the things that really connects you with your intuition, where it allows you to have the clarity of mind so that you are able to create consciously.   And yes, absolutely. You can create consciously in your life. However, if you're creating from a state of stress, then that will taint and underlying the intention of where you're coming from in your creation. So yeah, 100 percent we are creators and 100% thinking in a way that is positive can really impact your journey.   So I'm not negating that at all. However, doing so from a place of neutrality so that there's no major attachment and no major resistance to what you don't want or attachment to what you do want. Having a state of neutrality where you're coasting through that, first of [00:13:00] all, is a possibility on the fertility journey. I work with so many people and it is a possibility in the fertility journey. I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that is not possible for me until I have the baby. And that is a misconception because I've seen the possibility of it and I can guarantee you, you can get to the state of neutrality through that.   And by doing so, you're actually creating more space in your life in doing so. Now that doesn't mean negating how you feel. And part of getting to that state of neutrality is allowing yourself that space to be in your own authenticity, whatever that may look like at the moment.   So I want to make a couple of really key points here is that neutrality, when I talk about neutrality, neutrality is not indifference. So it's not meaning I don't care about anything. I'm just going to be completely numb because that's actually going all [00:14:00] the way to the yin and then trying to be too . positive could be trying too hard and going all the way to the young. It's actually going in the middle. So neutrality is not being indifferent. Neutrality doesn't mean you're not doing anything. It's creating a state of equilibrium and flow where your emotions can rise and fall without pulling you out of alignment.   And you can imagine it like a river flowing smoothly. So knowing that obstacles come and go, but the water continues to flow in So when it comes to Chinese medicine perspective, flow is bi directional. It impacts the mind and it impacts the body. If you create flow in the body through Chinese medicine, through herbs and acupuncture, And even Qigong or yoga. So this isn't just for acupuncture. You can create flow in the body many different ways.   It will create and reflect as flow in your mind. And if you [00:15:00] create flow in your mind by doing things like meditation and calming your mind, or even chanting or humming, which I guess is also physical, then that will create coherence and flow in your body. So ultimately, when you have flow and coherence in your body and your mind, it will impact your fertility.   And that is how I approach my own treatments towards my patients. And also the course that I do when I work with people online, it's all about creating this flow because when you do get this flow, That is the optimal state for your body to conceive. So for example, emotions are very much linked to our organs and you may have heard me talk about this before, but like things like worry or thinking too much can actually impact your digestive system and having, , An imbalanced digestive system will actually cause you to worry more. So sometimes[00:16:00] you'll feel certain emotions that are very much linked to the state of your organs.   And anger can disrupt the liver chi or stress can disrupt the liver chi by constricting because the liver is in charge of creating free flow in your body. And so the liver is basically your best friend when it comes to flow, if it is in the right balance. Similarly, if the liver is not optimal, it is going to feel more disrupted when we have other things going on in our life. So it can cause us to feel more stress. So all of these things are bidirectional and fear , is tied to the kidneys, which are really incredibly important when it comes to reproductive vitality and health.   So one of the best things that I can mention is if you look at emotions as you would energy, basically, where you look at it from an objective perspective, and a sense of neutrality where you're looking at the emotions as energy or even getting into your body state [00:17:00] when you're going through the emotions and saying, where do I feel this?   When you start to look at your body and not think about the ideas and the stories that are connected to the emotions, you'll be able to create a sense of separation because you're observing when you're observing, you can separate.   So a couple of practical steps to creating this neutrality is through your acknowledgement of how you're feeling. And you could do this, like I said, through your body or even through journaling. So you can write down certain things, how it makes you feel, and also talking to a friend or a family member or a therapist, depending on how much you feel you need and what you're able to process alone.   Another technique that can help us really become more neutral is things like meditation, mindfulness, even yoga, , Tai Chi, moving your body, able to really feel and process your emotions somatically through your [00:18:00] body can help. And then meditations really through your mind, but observing of your body.   You can do that, or you can think about your observation of your emotions or your thoughts and watching them, observing them so that you're over time training your mind to separate from that and not get pulled in to those emotions and not get pulled into the ideas or the judgments of them. And you're just able to see it from an objective perspective.   Another thing I am personally biased to is acupuncture and herbal support, and those things can definitely help through the physical body and through certain points to, to, balance the nervous system and also create a sense of peace. So that can help a lot with processing emotions. And that is one of the ways you can actually get extra help if you feel like sometimes those emotions can be very overwhelming.[00:19:00] Acupuncture helps tremendously in allowing yourself to process those emotions. I have a lot of people release a lot of emotions while they're doing acupuncture and it could be very, very supportive. There's a lot of. herbal formulas that can support your mind. They can support even the sleep, which in during the sleep, you're actually processing a lot as well.   So sleep is really important in processing emotions and processing  stress as well.   And then also adopting a both and mindset, which gives you permission to feel both hope and frustration, joy and sadness at the same time, allowing yourself to be okay with having opposing emotions for the same exact thing. So then it gives you the space to also feel joy at times and also feel sadness and not giving yourself all or nothing in this whole process.   And I think that doing that takes out [00:20:00] the extra added pressure or the guilt that you feel when you do have moments of joy after grieving a loss, really just allowing yourself the space and the freedom to just be however you want to show up. And lastly, limit external pressures. If you find that people are adding more pressure or giving you that toxic positivity, then yes, feel free to set those boundaries. Sometimes it can be just not even mentioning specifics, but just really setting the boundaries and creating space between you and certain people that you feel are adding too much pressure to you.   You could also limit external pressures by creating almost a detox of certain social media accounts that tend to bring up feelings of pressure to be extra positive because it seems like those people have that type of life and that ultimately many times is not really what it [00:21:00] seems to be.   It's something that we perceive and make meaning of. So if those things do trigger a lot of those pressures, I definitely suggest limiting that as well.   And also taking walks in nature, sometimes nature reminds us how things can be opposing, but perfectly beautiful in their imperfections. So sometimes just walking and observing and listening to the sounds of the leaves blowing in the trees and feeling the wind on your face and just taking yourself into a moment of presence that will ultimately lead you to some sense of neutrality where you almost forget where you are and you can just be perfectly present.   By doing so, you're giving yourself a little space and a break from everything, the good, the bad, or the judgments of those, and you're allowing yourself to be fully present. And by observing things [00:22:00]around you, you can actually get yourself to that state of neutrality. I highly recommend doing that. It can really impact your consciousness. And at least at the very least, it can give you a little mental break.   Remember that balance is key. And ultimately, I mean, that is how Chinese medicine works. That's how I get the body to be in a state of healing. And I say state of healing because ultimately it's the body that heals itself. We're just creating a state of neutrality and a state of balance. So that is ultimately what feels the most authentic to us because it's innate.   So I hope that you enjoyed this episode and feel free to reach out to me with any questions or ideas or thoughts for new future episodes on my Instagram. You can DM me there and my handle is at the wholesome lotus fertility. And if you guys enjoy this podcast, then please subscribe.   And it makes me really happy to [00:23:00] get reviews on Apple music. I read all of them. So thank you so much for tuning in today, and I hope you have a beautiful day. 

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Sarah, a woman I worked with, shares her deeply personal fertility journey that was close to four years. She shares her struggles, the various treatments she explored, and the spiritual practices that helped her find hope and healing. She emphasizes the importance of perseverance, the role of alternative therapies like acupuncture, and the significance of finding the right medical support. Sarah's story is one of resilience, faith, and the power of belief in oneself and a higher purpose.   Takeaways   Sarah struggled with unexplained infertility for three and a half years before seeking treatment. She explored various treatments, including acupuncture and IVF. Visualization and spiritual practices played a crucial role in her journey. Finding the right medical support made a significant difference. Sarah emphasizes the importance of not giving up on the journey. She believes in the power of intuition and listening to one's body. Connecting with nature helped her find peace and clarity. Nutrition and blood flow are essential for fertility. Sarah's experience highlights the importance of sharing stories for hope. She encourages others to start their journey sooner rather than later.       For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) I'm so excited to have you on today, Sarah, to share your story. Thank you so much for being willing to open up and inspire others with your journey. I'd love for you to introduce yourself and share a bit about your experience.   Sarah (00:20) Thanks for inviting me, Michelle. My name is Sarah, and I struggled with unexplained infertility for three and a half years. I had multiple tests and examinations, visited several doctors, and went through all the standard procedures, but no one could pinpoint the issue.   During my research, I discovered that acupuncture could be helpful for infertility, as it promotes relaxation and balance. Along with acupuncture, I learned about the importance of the right supplements. That's when I found you, Michelle, through your amazing reviews online. I reached out, explained my situation, and shared how I'd been following everything the doctors recommended, eating healthy, but still had no success. What struck me immediately when I met you was your energy and positivity. You weren't just an acupuncturist; you were like a life coach, guiding me step by step. During our first visit, you assessed my needs, recommended supplements, and started a treatment plan. After just one session, I felt significantly more relaxed. I also started practicing the visualization techniques you suggested, spending time at the beach, watching the sunrise, and focusing on restoring my energy.   After five treatments, I was able to get pregnant naturally. It was an incredible moment, and I can't thank you enough for your guidance and support. Michelle (03:17) I appreciate your kind words, Sarah, but I want to highlight the effort you put into this journey. You took initiative, embraced the practices, and made significant changes—that's a big deal.   Sarah (03:28) Thank you. It was a challenging road, but your support made all the difference. To give some context, I had tried naturally for three and a half years. Then, I underwent four IUIs, but none were successful. During one of those cycles, I worked with another acupuncturist, but it didn't help. Eventually, I decided to move on to IVF. My first IVF attempt wasn't successful. The clinic retrieved a few eggs, but only two made it to embryos, and the fresh embryo transfer didn't work. That experience was emotionally draining. The clinic's lack of support left me feeling alone and uncertain. That's when I turned to you. We started acupuncture and supplements, and your guidance helped me approach the process differently. I switched to a new clinic, which was much more supportive. They recommended combining acupuncture with IVF, and this time, everything felt more aligned.   Michelle (06:01) It's amazing how much the right environment and support can make a difference.   Sarah (06:22) Absolutely. The second clinic was so thorough and caring. They retrieved more mature eggs, and six of them made it to embryos. We planned a frozen embryo transfer but decided to wait a few months to let my body recover. Meanwhile, I continued with acupuncture and the protocol you recommended.   Then, something unexpected happened. Before the transfer, I got pregnant naturally. It was a complete surprise. I couldn't believe it after everything I had been through. Michelle (08:27) That's incredible! Your story is so inspiring because you had every reason to feel defeated, yet you never gave up. What kept you going? Sarah (10:00) I'd say it was a combination of faith and determination. I also had a dream after my first failed IVF that really stuck with me. In the dream, a man in brown clothing with a beard stood over me and placed his hands out, giving me energy. It felt like a message not to give up.   Michelle (12:14) That's so powerful. Dreams can be deeply meaningful, especially during such emotional journeys.   Sarah (13:32) It was. That dream, combined with my spiritual practices, gave me strength. I started focusing on connecting with God and nature, walking barefoot in the sand, and appreciating the present moment. I also began meditating and visualizing my body healing and preparing for pregnancy. Those practices made a huge difference. Michelle (17:22) It's amazing how those connections to faith and nature can create such profound shifts. And I remember when you first came in, your hands were very cold, which indicated poor blood flow. Improving circulation was a key part of the treatment. Sarah (18:45) Exactly. My hands aren't cold anymore, and I feel so much healthier overall. The blood flow improvements and supplements were game-changers.   Michelle (19:58) Blood flow is essential for nourishing the body and supporting fertility. In Chinese medicine, when the blood isn't circulating well, it can cause stress and other issues. Supporting the body holistically allows it to do what it's meant to do naturally. Sarah (22:33) I agree. Another big takeaway for me was learning that not all clinics or protocols are the same. Switching to a more supportive clinic and waiting for my body to recover before the frozen embryo transfer were critical steps. Patience and intuition played huge roles.   Michelle (23:44) Your intuition and persistence were key. And I'll admit, when I first met you, I had a feeling you'd be successful. But I always try to stay neutral because I never want to give false hope. It's about supporting the process and trusting your body.   Sarah (24:26) Thank you for believing in me. That belief made such a difference, along with everything I learned about visualization and spirituality. I've come to realize how powerful those tools are.   Michelle (29:23) It's true. Visualization and faith are incredibly powerful. Thank you so much for sharing your story, Sarah. Your journey will inspire so many others who are navigating similar challenges.   Sarah (30:02) Thank you for having me, Michelle. I'm so grateful for the opportunity to share my story and hopefully give hope to others. Never give up—the results are worth it.   Michelle (30:30) Absolutely. Thank you again for opening your heart and inspiring others.

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I dive into the fascinating world of cold plunges—a trending wellness practice that seems to be everywhere lately. I explore the science behind cold exposure, its incredible health benefits like boosting mood, metabolism, and reducing inflammation, and how it impacts fertility for both men and women. Drawing on both scientific insights and Traditional Chinese Medicine perspectives, I share practical tips on how to use cold plunges mindfully and discuss when and how they might be most beneficial. Whether you're curious about trying a cold plunge or wondering how it fits into your fertility journey, this episode offers a balanced and intuitive approach to this powerful practice.   Takeaways   Cold plunges boost mood, energy, and metabolism by activating the sympathetic nervous system. Brown fat activation improves metabolic health and insulin sensitivity. Helps regulate testicular temperature for male fertility but may lower testosterone levels. Reduces inflammation, improves circulation, and supports metabolic health for female fertility. Best done during the follicular phase, not during menstruation. Alternating cold and hot exposure stimulates yin and yang balance. Limit to once a month to avoid creating a "cold" pattern or energy depletion. Pay attention to how your body feels; avoid if it feels draining. May benefit those with PCOS or insulin resistance. Pair with heat exposure for a balanced effect. Avoid overdoing extreme temperature practices for fertility balance.   Research on cold plunges:  https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3895006/#:~:text=Cold%20exposure%20increased%20metabolic%20rate,in%20body%20weight%20or%20adiposity   https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33764169/   https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9518606/   https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1890772/   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:     [00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today we're going to be talking about a hot topic, but it's not so hot. We are talking about cold plunges and you may have heard about the benefits. It seems to be, again, a hot topic, something that you see many people talking about. You see lots of influencers getting to cold plunges. You see them popping up in all kinds of spas. So I wanted to talk about the benefits and not just the benefits, but if they are good for fertility, I often get the question asked by my patients and my fertility clients. So let's dive in.  So, let's talk about the science behind cold plunges, really what they do to the body and what they really are. So cold plunges is really going into very, [00:01:00] very cold water, like ice water for a short amount of time. So it could be 30 seconds, it could be up to a few minutes, which honestly I could never do a few minutes of it, but it's really just immersing the body in very cold water and then coming out. Obviously you don't want to stay too long because that's not healthy either. And what that does is it actually activates your sympathetic nervous system, which is the fight or flight response. And when that happens, it actually like stimulates the body and a surge of beta endorphins and noradrenaline occur, and that can impact your energy, it can impact your mood, it also activates brown fat tissue and increasing metabolism, so many different health benefits can occur, and that includes increasing metabolic rates, so It can force the body to work harder to maintain its core temperature, and then what it also does is it forces [00:02:00] the blood to go inwards so that the heat is protected and the blood goes towards your organs. It's also shown to help with insulin sensitivity, so it can improve your response to insulin. And since it helps with metabolism, it can also help with weight management. I personally have done cold plunges in the past, and I will say that it has a very relaxing impact on my body. , not relaxing when you're doing it. Absolutely not. It's very, very stressful actually. And you can feel stressed when you're doing it. And it also causes you to breathe really fast. and it causes, you could definitely feel the stress. So when you're going through that, you're obviously going through some stress cause your body's not used to taking that temperature. But then after you get out, you start to feel the endorphins and you start to feel really relaxed. When I have done it, I've done it in a spa setting where you can [00:03:00] do the cold plunges and then you can go into a warm environment and then go back and forth a couple of times. So what that could do is it actually from a Chinese medicine perspective, what I see it as is that you are forcing yin and yang. mechanism in your body by doing that, it actually wakes up that yin and yang response in the body. And it forces you to go from really cold to really hot to really cool to really hot. And what that can do is when you're forcing that dial, that your body's going to start to regulate itself. It almost instigates or It prompts the body to regulate itself and create balance. There have been a lot of studies that have been published, and it has been found to show lots of health benefits, including health and mood, cardiovascular health. So it definitely seems to be beneficial overall for the health. Now, when it comes to male fertility, the idea is, is[00:04:00] that temperature is really important and it plays a very, very important role when it comes to the testicles. And sperm production requires a temperature of about 3. 6 to 7. 2 degrees Fahrenheit lower than the core body temperature. And this is why the testicles are located outside of the body. So you may have often heard that for male fertility, it's important that they don't heat up the testicle area. So many times people will say not to go into spas or saunas or steam rooms and to avoid hot tubs. And that is the reason why is because having that high temperature is going to cause issues with the sperm production. But it also is the reason why a varicose cell impacts sperm health is because the varicose cell is basically a varicose vein, a vein that's [00:05:00] expanded in the testicular region. for your attention. And where there's blood, there's heat. So because it's expanded, there's more blood volume and that blood volume creates more heat around that area, which impacts sperm production. So the thought is, is that , cold plunges can also maintain the optimal temperature for sperm production by lowering the temperature of the body. However, what's been shown in some cases is that cold stimulation actually decreases testosterone levels by sometimes up to 10%. Is something to definitely consider. So the question is, should you as a male start to do cold plunges or should you just avoid heat and that is. definitely something to consider. So  When it comes to female fertility, we know that other benefits are reduced [00:06:00] inflammation for cold plunges, stress reduction, improved circulation, metabolic health. So these are all things that can definitely benefit female fertility. , Now, my thing is, is that I would not suggest to do this all the time if you were to do it. I think that doing it once in a while, maybe once a month, and then also including some, heat exposure for women back and forth, just once in a while to reset the system of the body probably won't hurt. And if anything, it might activate the body and create a more calm response in the body. And as I always say, it's really important to listen to your body. Ultimately, when you feel good, you feel good. it is your body speaking to you and communicating that whatever you're doing makes it feel good. So it is important to follow that. However, if you feel more fatigue, more drained, then your body's telling you maybe don't do it too much. I [00:07:00] personally think because it is an extreme type of stimulation, it might be best to Do this more of a once in a while thing, so no more than once a month, and it might be beneficial to do it once a month because you are stimulating , the yin and yang response for a female body, and you're also possibly lowering inflammation for both male and female. However, doing it more, could also impact having too much cold in the system and I often talk about this in general, that with female fertility specifically, it's important to keep a warm womb and to also not put your feet on cold tile. I always talk about drawing up cold. Now that is also a chronic thing. So doing this all the time. Is a different story than to do it really quickly and then you're right out and then your body has enough time to [00:08:00] regulate so that you're not really doing this chronically and you're not creating like a cold pattern from this quick exposure. So there's a difference between doing something habitually and chronically versus doing something for a quick exposure. It also might help for specific conditions. So my thought would be based on the fact that it lowers inflammation, And of course, again, there's not a lot of studies on this. So this is just really my perspective on it. The fact that it lowers inflammation and the fact that it can increase metabolism and increase insulin sensitivity, I would say it may benefit anybody who's a little more overweight or has PCOS with insulin sensitivity or insulin resistance. So I would say why not try it out, try it once and then don't do it like too many times, too much[00:09:00] repetition. I would definitely try it like about once a month just to get things stimulated. I would also say that I would avoid doing this during the menstrual cycle. I would do this only in the follicular phase after the bleed before ovulation. That would be the only time that I would suggest doing this  for women. I would also listen to your body and not overdo it, not stay too long inside the cold plunge especially if it's your first time and you're not used to it. So, test it out. But again, isn't something that I suggest doing on a regular basis. And similarly, I would say the same thing with hot yoga. Hot yoga is great once in a while in moderation, especially if you tend to be something called yin deficiency, you find that your fluids are low, you tend to be more dry, your skin is dry, and you're thirsty a lot. I would definitely suggest,[00:10:00] not to do hot yoga all the time. And I would say I would only suggest it once in a while.  If you have a strong constitution that is able to withstand the heat and not get fully, fully depleted for those individuals, I would definitely say once in a while to do hot yoga if it really relaxes you, that's okay. My concern is not to get too depleted by extreme heat or extreme cold. And so it's important to really consider that when you're trying to conceive, you don't want to overdo anything and cause too much stress on the body. A little stress is okay. That's actually normal and it actually helps your body to get stronger. But you just don't want to overdo it. So it really, a lot of this is intuitive. A lot of it is common sense. A lot of it is really paying attention to your body and your body sensations and what your body's telling you. So that is my two cents on the cold plunges. I know this [00:11:00] is a little shorter of an episode compared to what I usually do, but , I felt like it was an important thing to address because it does seem to be a topic that comes up a lot as of late so Those are my thoughts on it. I definitely think it can Stimulate that yin and yang balance by forcing the body. Sometimes that's okay, but you just don't want to do this all the time. So I hope that helped you answer your questions if that was on your mind. And I want to say thank you so much for tuning in today, and I hope you have a beautiful day.

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I speak to author of “Carry On” @carryonthebook Shea Bart Andreone @shea_andreone . Shea shares her deeply personal journey through fertility challenges, pregnancy struggles, and the emotional rollercoaster of loss and hope. She discusses her desire to become a parent, the difficulties she faced with hyperemesis gravidarum, and the heartbreak of losing a pregnancy. Ultimately, Shea emphasizes the importance of resilience and the joy of welcoming her children into the world. In this heartfelt conversation, Shea Bart Andreone shares her journey through the challenges of parenthood, including loss, the search for control, and the importance of community support. She discusses her book 'Carry On', which compiles true stories of individuals navigating the complexities of starting a family. The conversation emphasizes the significance of hope and resilience in the face of adversity, and the need for emotional support in healing. Be sure to tune in as you won't want to miss our deeply touching and hope filled conversation!   Takeaways   Shea always wanted to be a parent and started her journey with high hopes. Fertility struggles are common and can be emotionally taxing. Hyperemesis gravidarum is a severe form of morning sickness that can lead to significant health challenges. Shea experienced extreme nausea and weight loss during her pregnancy. The emotional toll of pregnancy loss is profound and can lead to feelings of guilt and despair. Shea's journey highlights the unpredictability of pregnancy and the importance of being adaptable. The desire to have children can drive individuals to persevere through immense challenges. Finding peace is possible, even amidst uncertainty. Loss can lead to discovering new activities that provide control. Writing can be a powerful outlet for processing experiences. Community support is crucial for those facing fertility challenges. The journey of parenthood can be isolating without connection. Stories of others can provide comfort and understanding. It's important to seek out community and support during difficult times.   Guest Bio:   Shea Bart Andreone was raised in Queens, New York, but moved west and loves California. She is a writer of numerous plays, essays, and maintains a blog called Twig Hugger. Shea has written multiple articles for mom and parent-oriented platforms (The Next Family, Motherfigure, LA Parent, Your Teen Magazine, and Chicken Soup For The Soul). Carry On is her first book and she hopes that it can provide hope and comfort to those who are on the fertility journey.    Websites: https://sheabartandreone.com/  Instagram: @carryonthebook @shea_andreone  X: X.comCarryOnTheBook   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast,   Shea Bart Andreone (00:01) Thank you. Thanks for having me.   Michelle (00:04) Yeah, it's a pleasure having you and I would love for you to share your story and what got you inspired to write your book Carry On. would love for you to share that with the listeners.   Shea Bart Andreone (00:17) I would love to. So I always loved kids. I always wanted a younger sibling. I wanted to babysit when my parents decided they were never gonna have another child. I'm the youngest with a big age gap. So I took on all things that could keep me around.   Michelle (00:36) Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (00:45) kids so that I felt like I could be a big sister or a babysat. And I taught kids and ran day camps and stuff like that. I always knew that I wanted to be a parent and start a family. So when I did finally find the person to do that with, I thought, okay, well, when we get to that moment, it's just gonna be easy peasy and   you know, that's so exciting. We make the decision and we go. And of course, like every listener of your podcast and many, many more people around the world, it doesn't always work that way. So it took me quite a bit of time to figure out what to do. You you're instructed pretty quickly to try for longer and   I just, think I knew something was going to stop me unless I got help, but I, I did see my regular OB at the time and she suggested that we do an HSG, where they flush the iodine up your fallopian tubes. And she discovered that, I, I, you can really feel that.   Michelle (02:04) Not a fun test.   Yeah, it's crazy, but I hear so many things, so many stories, and I just wish doctors would just let people know like what's coming.   Shea Bart Andreone (02:19) Yeah, like exactly what you're gonna feel. Yeah, no, we have to experience it for ourselves. So that resulted in finding out that I had a fibroid right at the opening of my uterus. So I had scheduled the surgery to get it removed and somehow in...   Michelle (02:21) Yeah.   Yeah.   Shea Bart Andreone (02:48) that, well, not somehow. We know how making babies can work. I guess my husband and I were continuing to try and because of the HSG, it pushed the fibroid a little bit out of the way and I was able to actually conceive. But the fibroid and the pregnancy, they were fighting for the blood supply.   Michelle (03:16) So just backing up, were you about to do surgery for it, but then you stopped because you got pregnant?   Shea Bart Andreone (03:22) Yeah, so I scheduled a surgery and then ended up in crazy, crazy pain. like pain I'd never experienced before, like just shocking, like sharp, sharp pain. And I ended up calling the doctor and she said, go to the emergency room. And it was in the emergency room that I found out I was actually pregnant.   Michelle (03:30) Mm.   wow.   Shea Bart Andreone (03:52) And I was told basically, you gotta just kind of deal with this because they didn't know which one would win out. So I waited and I took whatever I could for pain, but not a lot, because I was like, well, I think I had a feeling like, no, no, no, I'm pregnant. Like, this is amazing.   Michelle (04:06) Got it.   wow, you felt it before they confirmed it?   Shea Bart Andreone (04:22) No, no, no. I definitely didn't know when I went in, but once I was, I was very protective. I was like, no, I don't, you can tell me all you want that like, there's a chance this won't stick, but I'm going to protect this. So I was very, very careful. And then in the end, that doctor was really not helpful. And I had like,   Michelle (04:25) Okay.   Yeah.   Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. For sure.   Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (04:51) crazy pain on the following Monday and ended up like my sister-in-law said, just go to my doctor, just go to my doctor. So I went to her doctor and I had a very like strong clear line in the sand that I would not go to a male doctor. And I felt like at that point I was like, okay, like we all have things on this journey that we think we're not gonna do. And we think we're gonna like,   Michelle (05:09) Mm-hmm.   Yes.   Shea Bart Andreone (05:19) okay, I'm never gonna do IVF or I'm never gonna do IUI and I'm not gonna, and then like, you're like, well, I'm gonna change that. So I started with him and I really do think that because of that situation, I ended up in the right hands. So luckily for me, like that pregnancy ended up sticking.   Michelle (05:22) It's true.   that's great.   Shea Bart Andreone (05:49) and that fibroid eventually just sort of died off. However, within, I think I felt good for like two weeks and then I started feeling symptoms of hyperemesis gravidarum, which is, yeah, a few weeks in, I started feeling severely nauseous and,   Michelle (06:06) Mm-hmm. You mean early in the pregnancy.   Mm-hmm.   Right.   Shea Bart Andreone (06:18) I thought, okay, well, this will pass. This is what they tell people, like, know, morning sickness, but it's not morning sickness. Hyperamesis Gravidarum is like, if I threw up eight times in a day, that was a really good day. And I broke all the blood vessels in my face daily from the pressure of vomiting. And the blood vessels in my eyes were...   Michelle (06:35) Wow, yeah.   Shea Bart Andreone (06:48) Like my, I had bloodshot eyes and just could not remember a time that I liked food. Like it was so awful to me. Like the idea of it, sipping water, anything. And originally, like...   Michelle (07:04) Yeah, that's that's a big thing, too, because people get dehydrated.   Shea Bart Andreone (07:08) Yeah, yeah, and I tried everything. tried like, you know, motion sickness bands and you know, there were lollipops that were supposed to help and ice pops and nothing, nothing, nothing. And I just didn't want anything. And that, you know, began the insane journey of my pregnancy because that led me to lose about 15 pounds.   Michelle (07:18) Mm-hmm.   Wow.   Shea Bart Andreone (07:37) And my doctor didn't quite realize how bad it was. And when he did, he was like, I am giving you medication that is going to stop the, you know, the vomiting for a few days and you have to eat. If you do not gain weight by Monday or stay the same, I have to admit you for a feeding tube. So we took the weekend.   Michelle (07:54) Yeah.   Wow.   Shea Bart Andreone (08:06) And my husband was like, can you think of anything, any food you ever liked? And I was like, pizza.   Michelle (08:18) Ha ha ha ha!   Shea Bart Andreone (08:21) For like kid food, I went to growing up, had, I think was, had Elio's frozen pizza and tater tots. And I was like, I don't even know where that came from, but okay, let's try that. And the medication was so intense that you basically like, you could eat and then you'd fall asleep. And so that started on a Friday and Saturday midday, I woke up and I felt like,   Michelle (08:23) Yeah.   The simple things.   Shea Bart Andreone (08:51) I couldn't stop moving. Like I was very restless. And I felt like this must be what restless leg syndrome is like, but it feels like this for my whole body. And that was crazy because I'd never experienced a situation like that before where you feel like it's out of control. Like you can't say kind of wreaks havoc on your mind because you don't want to keep moving, but you are.   Michelle (08:53) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   wow.   Shea Bart Andreone (09:21) Yeah.   Michelle (09:21) Yeah, yeah. Is that from, was that from the medication side effect? my God, you poor thing. You got tortured.   Shea Bart Andreone (09:25) Yeah.   It's the yeah, it got worse too. Then I got jaw lock.   Michelle (09:31) no.   no.   Shea Bart Andreone (09:37) So like my entire jaw just locked to one side. And once that started, it didn't let go for 16 hours.   Michelle (09:42) no.   my God.   Shea Bart Andreone (09:51) And the only thing that would help is sometimes I could put all my upper body weight over my husband's shoulder and it would like kind of fall. And at one point in that time it moved to the other side, but it was so uncomfortable and so painful. And I remember walking to use the bathroom at some point and looking at the toilet and thinking, I'd actually rather throw up than this. Like, I'm like.   Michelle (10:01) Mm-hmm.   Mm.   poor thing. my gosh. And was that also from the medication? Wow.   Shea Bart Andreone (10:24) Yeah. And it's interesting how your brain can only focus on one thing at a time, because in the back of my mind, I was like, how could I remain pregnant through all of this? my body is going through so much trauma right now. I don't know how. And   Michelle (10:34) Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (10:49) I knew that my husband was thinking the same thing, but we weren't discussing it because I was so distracted by the pain and the discomfort. But I knew that he was calling the doctor and trying to find out like, would this baby be okay? And fortunately he got the answer that like, this, guess what you eat doesn't.   Michelle (11:08) Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (11:18) always and what you what medicine doesn't always go fully like you do filter those things out to a degree. And I remember the next, you know, that was over the weekend and I went back and I, I was able to maintain my weight. So he did not have to send me to the hospital. But I remember, like waiting with bated breath to see that ultrasound on Monday morning. And   Michelle (11:46) Yeah.   Shea Bart Andreone (11:46) there was the baby inside with its legs crossed and an arm back and like yeah I've been fine in here.   Michelle (11:55) lounging. That's amazing.   Shea Bart Andreone (12:00) Like, I know you've been in hell, but I'm having a vacation.   Michelle (12:03) I'm sure you tell the story. It's interesting because my mom actually reminded me again. You have stories that you just keep hearing over and over and over again. But truthfully, mean, suffered secondary infertility to conceive me. So I'm kind of a product of secondary infertility. And she's tried and tried and tried. She said every time I get my period, I cry.   Shea Bart Andreone (12:06) Yeah.   Michelle (12:28) And it was really the stories of the people that I treat. It's so crazy how that comes full circle. And I'm kind of like the proof that a woman can go through all of this and still have a baby. And she also had the same thing. I don't know how severe it was, but to the point where she lost so much weight, she was under a hundred pounds and her doctor said, listen, we got to abort this child. You're not going to survive. And she's like, no way.   You know, and it was, it's pretty crazy. You know, you go through this journey and then you advice that you're like, no, no, no, no, no, this is not happening.   Shea Bart Andreone (13:04) Yeah, you get advice and then also like you try again and willingly enter something this crazy because the power and the, you know, the need and the, yeah. Yeah. That desire to have children is, is pretty huge. pretty, it's, it's, it's quite magical and   Michelle (13:10) Mm-hmm.   The belief really, right? The belief in that desire.   Shea Bart Andreone (13:34) wondrous, I think. Yeah. Yeah.   Michelle (13:37) I agree. I think it's meant to be there. Like, I don't think that it's a random thing. People feel that really strong calling and I don't think it's random. It's not just something that was kind of planted there for no reason. I think it's because you're meant to find the baby in one way the other. Like you were saying before about how maybe you don't expect it to be IVF, but maybe it is, and then you can kind of go back and forth. But even with...   egg donor or embryo donor or even adoption. I've had people talk about that and they said I was meant to have that baby. Like it was that calling. just that I was trying to control how it was going to show up.   Shea Bart Andreone (14:17) Yeah, yeah, it's really wild. mean, the things when you listen to other people's stories, sometimes you're like, why didn't you stop? And like, mean, or how did you keep going? How did you persevere? like, I follow someone online who is pregnant right now. And this is the first positive pregnancy test that she's gotten in over eight, like in eight years of trying. While you wait.   Michelle (14:28) Mm-hmm.   I think I saw that one. Yes. It was amazing. It was really, my God, I got the chills with the video that she showed. was like, that was amazing.   Shea Bart Andreone (14:47) Yes, it was amazing!   Yeah, like to see that double line. yeah, that's a long time. And people go through a lot. And it is not something for anyone on the outside to judge or decide or advise on because that desire, like you said, it's pretty wild. Yeah, yeah.   Michelle (14:57) Yeah, after eight years.   Yeah.   It's real.   Shea Bart Andreone (15:22) So in the end, I did get a very healthy baby and a baby girl. did not find out the gender and in the middle of a contraction, my husband, we had names for both a boy and a girl and in the middle of a contraction, my husband goes, I gotta tell you something. I don't like the boy's name. And I was like, I can't talk to you right now.   Michelle (15:45) That's funny. That is so funny.   Shea Bart Andreone (15:52) So for that sake, we were very happy to have a girl. Like we were happy to have a girl anyway. think we admitted to each other we really wanted a girl, but like, obviously we would have been over the moon for anything except that I don't know what we would have named that boy. So, you know, when she was about...   Michelle (15:59) Yeah.   Yeah, that's so funny.   Shea Bart Andreone (16:17) close to three. I wanted some time. I was really, really enjoying just like feeling healthy and raising a baby and not rushed to have another one. And so I thought, okay, well, when she like goes into preschool, then I can try to do this again. And this time I did get pregnant right away. And   was pretty sick right away as well. And my doctor found this team that like sends an IV, like teaches you guys, like a couple to do their own IVs. And I was set up to give myself, to put a port into my belly every morning with an IV that I wore as a pack.   Michelle (17:01) Mm.   Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (17:16) that was to help me to stop throwing up. And unfortunately,   I feel like, you know, anything I deal with, like there's research that comes out like a year or two later that like, that could have helped me in that situation, but unfortunately it didn't. But the medicine that was given to me at the time is no longer on the market for pregnancies because it can stop the heart from beating. So in...   Michelle (17:33) wow.   Uh-huh.   my gosh, wow.   Shea Bart Andreone (17:55) you know, at our 12 week ultrasound, which I was hoping to celebrate, was, and talk about like power and instinct. That morning, I felt like something was wrong. And I don't know where that feeling came from, because it's too soon at that point to really feel anything, you know.   Michelle (18:15) my gosh.   Shea Bart Andreone (18:24) moving around, but I just felt like something was wrong. And I remember looking at the sky and it was like this perfect blue and telling myself that no matter what happens today, that sky is still going to be blue. And just to hold on to like, not everything is lost. And I don't, I really don't even know why I felt this like foreboding, foreshadowing feeling. but   Michelle (18:43) Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (18:54) know, the doctor was, we were waiting in the room for the doctor and my husband was joking around and I said, I don't know, I don't feel like joking around. you know, when the doctor came in all friendly right away, I said, don't feel, I feel like some, I was very straightforward in a way that I don't think I usually am. And I was right, there was no heartbeat.   Michelle (19:03) Mm-hmm.   Wow.   Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (19:21) and I was too far along to like have anything done in the office. So I had to get checked into the hospital and yeah, it was really, really rough and awful because I felt like...   I tried so hard to do the right thing and to like keep everybody healthy. And it was awful doing like, you know, the port and injecting myself every day and all of that. And it still didn't work. So we ended up naming that baby, the name that I...   Michelle (19:43) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (20:08) show is with my, what I thought with my husband, but he didn't really like it. And I said, I know you didn't really like this name, but can I use it for this baby? And in that moment, he said, yep, but why don't you give all the other names that we're not gonna use next time. And that was the first time I heard him agree, like, we'll try again.   Michelle (20:13) you   wow.   Shea Bart Andreone (20:34) I hadn't thought that, like, guess it was, like, it was a lot for me, but I knew I wanted to try, but I kind of felt like, like I said about advice that came from others, like, it felt like everything in the universe was saying, you have gone through enough, take your one child, be grateful and move on. And for him to say, we will try again, it just gave me such a sense of relief that we were on the same page.   But we did agree that no matter what happened, this would be the last time because our daughter couldn't live through that again. And we couldn't, you know, do that. So we were gonna, so we tried again this time with no medication and only an IV for fluid. So I...   Michelle (20:59) Yeah.   Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (21:24) It's strange, hyperemesis is a weird thing. Like I definitely got it all three times that I was pregnant, but with the first one and the third one, the time of day that I could eat was totally different. I, with this, the last pregnancy, I could eat something in the morning, but once like one o'clock came, that's it. Like the gate was closed. Like there's no more putting any food or liquid into your body.   Michelle (21:30) Mm-hmm.   huh.   Shea Bart Andreone (21:54) so I did what I can, like I did what I could to eat before that time. and you know, we navigated it and, and I had a healthy baby boy. so I, I am very, very grateful and definitely, I'm aware, especially when I talk to others that are in the middle of their story.   Michelle (22:07) amazing.   Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (22:24) that   You don't know how your journey is going to end. really don't know how you're going to get to where you get to. But,   I know it's so cliche, like, whatever is supposed to happen, like the end of the story, it works out in the end. Like whether or not you get the biological child or adoption or foster or five dogs.   Michelle (22:56) Yeah. Yeah.   Shea Bart Andreone (22:58) you find peace at some point. I, my heart, yeah, my heart goes out to the people that are still in that journey and they don't have the ending yet.   Michelle (23:02) Yeah, I mean that makes sense.   Yeah, it's the ending. It's, things start to make sense at the end. And then you realize, had it not been for that exact moment, the genetics, all the alignment wouldn't be that exact child that you have. And, you know, obviously when you're holding that child in your hands, you're like, I wouldn't change this for anything. but sometimes it can be really scary because when you're going through it, you're walking into like a dark room, cause you have no idea how things are going to play out.   Shea Bart Andreone (23:37) Yeah. Yeah.   Michelle (23:38) And that the unknown, as we know, is like the scariest things for humans. all, nobody likes that. It's just the unknown. And especially when it comes to such a strong desire that is so primal. Yeah.   Shea Bart Andreone (23:43) Yeah.   Yeah, yeah. And so universal. mean, it's just procreating. That's what we think we're wired. I mean, we are wired and we think that we're meant to do it and it doesn't work out that way for everybody. So in all of that, for me though, especially in the miscarriage part, I felt like   Michelle (23:59) Yep.   Yeah.   Shea Bart Andreone (24:21) I didn't know who to go to and I didn't know where to, like, didn't feel, obviously I had at the time, like a three year old. And so either everyone around me in my circle at the time had a second child already or was trying to. And I didn't, I don't want to go to those people in that time.   So I ended up calling a friend of mine who had also lost several babies at the same week because I needed very specific support at that time. Like someone who really   Michelle (25:00) wow.   Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's somebody who can understand.   Shea Bart Andreone (25:09) Yeah, like understand exactly. And I talked to her and then she maybe led me to someone else. And I discovered that each woman that I spoke to had felt such a loss of control with their trajectory of what they had planned.   that they found activities that they could control to keep them a little bit grounded. It's such an ungrounding time. And one of them was like painting pottery, you know, plant pots. One ran a marathon. One was cooking and started to become a chef.   Michelle (25:45) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (26:06) And I realized that there were these like stories of activities that have, and, you know, hobbies or whatnot that came out of this. And I, I was like, okay, I got to find my, activity. So, and, and like I said, like something I can control, something I can, you know, seek from start to finish and have an outcome.   Michelle (26:07) wow.   Shea Bart Andreone (26:36) because I can't do that with a baby.   Michelle (26:36) Mm-hmm.   That's so interesting. This is the first time I've ever heard anybody put it in that way. I find it so interesting and I think that is really powerful.   Shea Bart Andreone (26:48) Yeah, it made sense to me once I realized this common thread. I was like, I get it. So I took up sewing and realized really quickly that is not going to be my thing. was one of those things I was always curious about and I like maybe took an eighth grade and didn't totally understand it. And so I was like, I'm going to try it now. And I was like,   Michelle (26:57) Mm-hmm.   Which that happens too.   Shea Bart Andreone (27:18) Nope, don't have any control over this either. But I was writing and I decided, that is something that I can do and I really love it and it can be an outlet for me. And so I decided to, because I couldn't think about anything else, to compile these stories from people.   Michelle (27:19) Yeah.   Shea Bart Andreone (27:47) and their hurdles and their stories of trying to become a parent. And that is how the book, Carry On, came to be. And it is stories of infertility and adoption and fostering. And most stories in the book have a happy ending, but not all the stories in the book.   Michelle (27:57) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (28:18) And yeah, mean, a lot of them, like when you're in the, if you, before you get to the end of that chapter for that person, you're like, whew. But there, you know, every story has a beginning, a middle and an end. so it's been, it, it, it's been wild to, interview people and learn about people. And you know, it is, because it's.   Michelle (28:29) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (28:47) It's my book and I put it together with all these different people. I thought I was done with it a couple of years ago. And again, talk about control and you think you're going to put a deadline on yourself and it has a life of its own. But I made a fairly new friend in the last few years.   Michelle (28:56) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm. Things change.   Shea Bart Andreone (29:17) And we got to know each other over something completely unrelated to fertility. And it was actually like activism against violence for something. we just connected and realized like, we should be friends, but we were so busy focusing on the cause that it took like a couple of months for us to get together and go for a walk before I like.   looked at her and said, so what do you do? Who are you? And she asked the same of me and I said, you I'm working on this book. And she said, if I had known you before, I probably would have been a chapter in your book.   Michelle (29:49) Yeah.   my gosh, wow.   Shea Bart Andreone (30:05) And it took me another couple of months of getting to know her and realizing that like, actually her story really does belong in this book and it is my book. So even though it's been done for a while, I'm adding it. So her story is one of the chapters in the book and she's the one that drew the line in the sand and said, I am never doing IVF. Like that's as far as I'll go.   Michelle (30:16) Mmm. Wow.   Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (30:34) And if she didn't do IVF, she wouldn't have her child.   Michelle (30:41) Wow, it's amazing how that happens.   Shea Bart Andreone (30:44) Yeah, and she and her story is really fascinating too because   Like mine, her health was at risk, you know, in order to have her child, but she, you know, went through 20 weeks of pregnancy with twins via IVF and unfortunately she lost those babies. And then, you know, knew what to expect the next time around. But when she wanted a second child,   it was just too much for her to like endure again, but it wasn't an option for her to not have a second child. So her second child is actually adopted from Ethiopia.   Michelle (31:33) my is beautiful.   Shea Bart Andreone (31:36) So it's a pretty amazing story.   Michelle (31:40) That's amazing. That's so beautiful. I had a guest, a previous guest, Dr. Lisa Miller. She wrote The Awakened Brain. She has an incredible story and it was, she was struggling to conceive for years with her husband. She had a voice in her head that kept saying, would you adopt if you had a child? If you were able to conceive, would you adopt? And she kept saying no. And then,   Shea Bart Andreone (31:48) yeah.   Michelle (32:04) one day randomly they saw something on TV. think they were either, I don't know if she was in hospital or a hotel. I don't remember exactly what it was, but like the TV wouldn't change. And it was stuck on this channel of a child that didn't have parents and her heart just blew wide open.   and her husband as well. And they're like, that's it. We're adopting. The second they decided to adopt and they got everything in order, she conceived. And she was meant to have her adoptive child. It was like something was calling her in that direction. She kept putting it off. And then all of sudden, boom, like in the right time, it was like, that was it. And then what happened was she heard that voice again in her mind.   if you were able to conceive naturally, would you still adopt? And she said, absolutely yes. Like after she decided and saw the child and it was just so powerful and she was getting all kinds of crazy signs. There was a duck that left an embryo in her door. It was right after she had a challenge conceiving. was just, it was so crazy. Like all these weird signs and it just tells you that they were part of a very cosmic intelligence.   there's got to be some kind of order that we're part of because it can't you can't explain that otherwise. There's something else. There's some other kind of divine intelligence. Yeah, yep.   Shea Bart Andreone (33:31) Yeah, whatever you want to call it, it's out there. So did she end up adopting a child and having a biological child?   Michelle (33:40) Yep. Yep. And she feels that her adoptive child is her child. Like that was the child she was meant to have. And then also her child and they were also meant to be together. It's amazing. It's just so wild on so many levels,   Shea Bart Andreone (33:56) Yeah, yeah, I just met someone I did a panel for a fertility expo and the woman sitting next to me had dealt with secondary infertility and had no issue getting pregnant with her first child and then her second child just she could not get pregnant, could not get pregnant and they had been on a list for fostering.   kids and I didn't go like she wasn't ever planning to adopt but just to help other people and to take in another child and she was thinking she was going to get like a teenager and somehow they were called randomly like two years ago with a newborn that was available and so she has raised that you know baby since birth and   Michelle (34:29) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (34:52) now is trying to adopt the baby. of course, two years, you know, year and a half into having that baby, she did get pregnant and now has three children.   Michelle (34:55) wow.   Wow. wow. you just don't know how and that's the part of relinquishing control. Like we know we have the desire and the desire is there for a reason. We just, we almost have to rely on that divine intelligence for the how. I think that that's what it is. And when we fight that, that's where I feel like it doesn't stop like you from having it eventually, but it stops the process. It delays it. think when we fight   Shea Bart Andreone (35:17) Yeah. Yep.   Michelle (35:30) that divine intelligence, that flow that's trying to move you in a certain direction.   Shea Bart Andreone (35:34) Yeah, it's really true. And also, I don't know why I keep coming back to this today, but that middle part of the story, you have to find a way to be uncomfortable in that disequilibrium and manage it, because it's not going to stay like that. It won't. Yeah.   Michelle (35:50) Mm-hmm.   Right. This too shall pass.   Shea Bart Andreone (36:01) Even like in every situation, every, like this week, my daughter was expecting to get, she had worked really, really hard for a slot and an opportunity to do something. And they were looking at 10 people and knocking it down to six. And she ended up in the bottom four and did not get that opportunity. And I'm shocked. She's shocked, she's devastated.   Michelle (36:28) Mm.   Shea Bart Andreone (36:30) And as a parent, have that like, don't really want to be more upset for them. Like there's a fine line. You got to balance like your own emotions before you like, you know, and I just like the last couple of days, I've been like, okay, what's going to happen next? Because somehow something is going to make this better. Like, and I know something will happen. Like, but I feel like I'm on the edge of my seat sort of waiting for news.   Michelle (36:37) Mm-hmm.   Yep.   Mm-hmm. Yep.   Shea Bart Andreone (37:00) and that is familiar to me for like, you know, all the waiting and the waiting and the waiting of like, well, what's going to happen? Something is going to happen. Something exciting at some point. And you might have some pretty upsetting moments along the way, but something is going to happen.   Michelle (37:21) Yes, I actually remember hearing, I don't remember where it was, but it was a rabbi who said that there was like a saying that everything in the end works out. And if it's not working out or everything in the end is good. And if it's not good, it's not the end. And I'm like, I love that. Yeah.   Shea Bart Andreone (37:36) at the end. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, I definitely feel that way.   but we get like, it's so global. It's so like, you know, whatever your politics are, you can feel like, shoot, you know, that happened. You know, like, we feel this universally, like many, many times, and it shifts, things shift. And then, yeah, and the story ends.   Michelle (38:03) They do.   Yes. Yeah. Things definitely shift. I'm also kind of into Kabbalah right now, like, cause it's very similar to quantum physics. And I love that, how Joe Dispenza talks about that. But I find that a lot of like ancient traditions teach about, and these are things that aren't necessarily, you don't need to see them as like a religion per se. It's actually a way of life. It's almost like a science of life. And they talk about how, things do come up.   It is really for your soul to evolve. And sometimes those difficult things, like the second we react to them, then we sort of block ourselves off from the light and that like wisdom. But when we allow them, and this is, you know, they talked about it in Zen Buddhism, that's truly going with the flows. Like even when things are not comfortable, if you just allow for it to move and don't fight it.   with the non-resistance, then it actually helps to grow your soul, your spirit, your personality, your mind, your ability to handle things. It's pretty wild, but in some senses that   challenge   is what helps us. And the same thing if you look at a butterfly or even like a plant coming out of a seed and that hard shell and that fighting and that   challenge   of trying to get through. so it's painful, but they do it in that   That aspect of it, the difficulty, the challenge is really what helps us to become more of ourselves.   Shea Bart Andreone (39:44) Yeah, to get to the other side.   Michelle (39:46) Yeah, it's pretty wild. But like you said, it's universal. It could be applied to anything in your life. It could be applied to anything, to getting a job, to marrying the right partner. And it's very similar and also just any kind of challenges that happen in your life. And I've seen it so many times, just like you, like so many stories of people that had they looked at their history and said, okay, well, since I've never gotten pregnant,   Shea Bart Andreone (40:01) Yeah.   Michelle (40:12) before, like the one we just spoke about eight years of never getting pregnant, you could look at the history and say, based on the history and since it's been so long, that's going to probably be my future. And logically, it makes sense to think like that, but it's not necessarily the case for many people.   Shea Bart Andreone (40:15) Yeah.   Yeah. Yeah, and that belief of holding and hope, hope is like.   Michelle (40:35) Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (40:38) That's such a challenging topic because it is the first thing to go, I think, when you're challenged and faced with a big hurdle to overcome. It's hard to think you can hold on to any sort of hope, but that's pretty much the key.   Michelle (41:00) Yeah, it is. it's so interesting that it's so hard because the journey by itself, you're also faced with a lot of professionals that are giving you stats and numbers. And sometimes when you go into that, that's like a hope killer. It'll immediately say, well, I guess you can't really do it because look at your numbers are terrible. And based on this, it's just not possible for you. And so many people still conceive despite that and have healthy   children, know, births. So it's interesting how also the journey, the fertility journey just happens to be one that you're faced with a lot of hope killers in general. And so having to really stay grounded and really stay close to that desire and keep that like in your heart.   is very challenging. and you mentioned something that was actually really powerful. And I think that that is something that everybody should be given as a resource is just community connecting with people that know exactly what you're going through. And having that support is tremendous. And it's just nowadays, it's getting better than it used to. I feel like it used to be worse. Now we have social media.   We have lots of groups, we're connecting. And I think that that's huge. And I think that people who go through miscarriages doctors should be required to give them resources because you're dealing with a traumatic event and then you're sent home. And I think that that is not right. It's, it's like unethical to not provide support for people going through that.   Shea Bart Andreone (42:44) I agree, and I think that is a big flaw in our medical community, like our medical world. takes, I mean, I don't want to be, put anybody in boxes, but the majority of the people who become doctors are very cerebral and understand the logistics of the physical body and don't always necessarily take into account the emotional side.   Michelle (43:13) Mm-hmm.   Shea Bart Andreone (43:14) I would say most for me of the doctors that I have seen don't handle the emotional stuff very well. And I think we're learning that mental health is such a massive, massive element that cannot be ignored and needs the attention. And I do think when you said it's getting better community wise, it is, from what it start like...   There, know, hundreds of years ago and in other countries still today, community is everything surrounding people. And I would say Western medicine has, you know, unfortunately kind of cut that out. And like even in other countries, I think it's France where you're, once you have a baby, you're, you're provided with physical therapy for the woman who gave, you for you as a woman.   Michelle (43:49) Yeah, it's just true. Yeah.   Shea Bart Andreone (44:12) You're given attention to heal yourself. And here we're sent home. You just had a baby. Bye. You're good. Not even 24 hours of any instruction. If you adopt a baby, you have to go through many, many, many hours of training. But on the other side, if you just birthed your own baby, you're sent home. Good luck.   Michelle (44:20) Yeah.   Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Shea Bart Andreone (44:39) So yeah, would say lack of community is still huge. And yes, you can find that online, but...   Michelle (44:49) Right. It's not the same as actually having a physical community.   Shea Bart Andreone (44:52) Yeah, and we still don't provide that for each other. And there's no wonder to me why doulas and midwives and lactation consultants and postpartum doulas are in such high demand. And unfortunately, that's a luxury.   Michelle (45:13) Mm-hmm. Right, right. It's a luxury and it's expensive. Not everybody can afford it.   Shea Bart Andreone (45:17) Yeah, but I understand the need for it. It makes perfect sense to me because it's like we're thrown into this dark tunnel without any light provided. It would be nice for someone to sit by your side and tell you how it's going to go. And yes, mothers and sisters and friends can do that to an extent, but yeah, it feels like there's a need.   Michelle (45:21) Yep.   Shea Bart Andreone (45:47) And yes, you can Google anything and you will find out.   Michelle (45:51) It's not quite the same. Actually, if anything, it gives you more anxiety. It's so important. And I think that it's true. I, as you're talking, I'm like, this is basically the building blocks of society. Like if you have a good foundation that's done with love and wisdom and carries on like traditions and history that people have learned from and can teach it. I mean, it feels like almost there's a gap because   Shea Bart Andreone (45:54) Yeah.   Michelle (46:21) It used to be that way really back in the day. And then there was this gap with industrial age and we've sort of gotten more separated and now we're thirsting for it. And there is a very big demand for that.   Shea Bart Andreone (46:35) Yeah, yeah. So that I, you know, not that a book can can cover that, but I feel like the aspect of why I chose to write this is just if it could help one person not feel as alone as I felt before I started finding these people. That's the goal because   I just, think even people who can find access to other people sometimes are afraid to like make that like leap to go find a support group or talk to other people. Like, you know, I have a friend right now, a very close friend dealing with cancer and she has three kids and there are so many groups available to them to...   Michelle (47:25) I'm sorry to hear that.   Shea Bart Andreone (47:33) speak to others who are dealing exactly with what they're dealing with, but they don't want to go. Yeah. I, you know, whatever way someone can find that community, whether it's through a podcast or, you know, or a group in the park or a Facebook group or, you know,   Michelle (47:37) Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. It's so personal.   Shea Bart Andreone (48:01) or in a book, just hope for people that they find people to connect to so they don't feel alone.   Michelle (48:09) Yeah. I love that you wrote this book. think having stories is so powerful and just knowing these true stories and that people went through them and then you can relate to the challenges and then you can see how it ends for some people. I think that it's so powerful not to feel alone. I think that that's the big key is just not feeling alone. And like you said, the key is hope.   So for people who are listening to this, and I'm sure a lot of people are going to be wanting to look at this book right now, how can they find the book? How can they find out more about you?   Shea Bart Andreone (48:44) My website is sheabartandrioni.com and the book is available on Amazon. It's also available in certain bookstores. You can walk into your local bookstore and order it through them if they don't have it. And the book is called Carry On and the subtitle is True Stories of the Heartbreak and Wonder of Trying to Start a Family.   Michelle (49:15) Well, first of all, I really enjoyed this conversation with you today, Shay. This is really so heartfelt and it just, it was so symbolic of like the power of the human spirit and going through that and just everything that you shared today and opening up and I really appreciate you coming on. I really, really enjoyed   this conversation with you   Shea Bart Andreone (49:36) Thank you. Thank you. was nice to meet you.   Michelle (49:40) same. And also just for the listeners, if you guys want all of the links that Shay just mentioned are going to be in the episode notes, so you don't have to memorize everything that you just heard. You could just go back to the episode notes. So thank you so much for coming on today, Shay.   Shea Bart Andreone (49:55) You're most welcome.  

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Kelly Meehan of @spiritbabymedium discusses her new book,'Notes from a Spirit Baby Medium,' and explores the themes of intuition, spirit baby communication, and the importance of community in the healing process. She emphasizes the connection between past experiences and intuition, the mystical journey of conception, and how babies communicate with their parents. The discussion highlights the significance of understanding one's own energy and the role of community in fostering healing and connection. In this conversation, we explore the profound connection between emotions, consciousness, and the external world. We discuss the importance of self-awareness, the journey of awakening, and the challenges of navigating personal healing while supporting others. Our conversation also delves into the complexities of grief and loss, particularly in the context of miscarriage, and highlights the significance of spirit baby communication as a resource for healing.   Takeaways   Kelly's new book focuses on spirit baby communication. Intuition is a natural instinct that everyone possesses. Past experiences can hinder one's ability to trust intuition. Community plays a vital role in healing and connection. Babies are evolving and communicate with their parents. Frequency affects conception and the energy of babies. Meditation helps in understanding and connecting with intuition. Awareness of one's own energy is crucial for personal growth. Our consciousness can impact the world we perceive. Awakening can happen suddenly, like a light switch. Navigating personal healing requires setting boundaries. Grief and loss are unique experiences for everyone. Self-compassion is crucial during times of loss. Presence and connection are vital in supporting others. Emotions dictate much of our health and well-being. Meditation can aid in processing grief and loss. Spirit baby communication offers a unique healing perspective.     Guest Bio:   Kelly Meehan is a healing visionary, author of Notes From A Spirit Baby Medium - Everything you need to know about spirit baby communication, a birth advocate, and a holistic mother to her sons Rain and Forest. Her loving support and teachings focus on spirit baby communication in conception, energetic fertility wellness, intuitive health with medical intuition, pre-birth pregnancy communication, and sacred grief support in all areas of birth loss(miscarriage, stillbirth, termination & newborn to toddler). Kelly understands how to listen to the unseen and deeply felt world of spirit baby and conscious parenting.   Kelly shares her newest published book *Notes from A Spirit Baby Medium- Everything you need to know about spirit baby communication*This insightful book explores Spirit Baby Communication 101, testimonials and real messages from spirit baby, and how to bring intuition & psychic self awareness into your conception, pregnancy, and or healing birth loss. Available for purchase NOW! Amazon & Ingram Spark.   Kelly is the creator and host of SPIRIT BABY RADIO podcast with over 200 episodes by the end of 2024. She has been in the media on birth related and spiritual podcasts and radio shows as a guest expert, being invited and attending over 40 online global summits with topics such as: fertility, pregnancy, grief, and spirituality. She has been featured in Blogs and magazines, and articles.  She has been on a TV Show (Nighttime Prime) Nick MOMS sharing her work.     Websites:   https://www.newearthchildren.com https://www.spiritbabyacademy.com   Social Media:   Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/spiritbabymedium/ Facebook:Spirit Baby Medium/Medical Intuitive Facebook:  SPIRIT BABIES: Conscious Conception, Intuitive Pregnancy, & Motherhood Facebook: The After Life of Spirit Baby- Healing, Connections, & Love Twitter: @SPIRITBABYRADIO YouTube:www.youtube.com/@spiritbabycommunication   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Check out Michelle's Latest Book: The Way of Fertility! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:     Michelle (00:00) Welcome back to the podcast, Kelly.   Kelly (00:03) Thank you for having me again.   Michelle (00:05) I'm so excited to have you back. first of all, congratulations on your new book.   Kelly (00:12) Yay, thank you. Do want me to tell you the title? Yes.   Michelle (00:15) Yes. Tell us the title and tell us all about it. You've been on the podcast before. If you want to give us kind of like a brief background for people who are hearing you for the first time and haven't heard the podcast before, I would love for you to share your background and then also talk about your new book.   Kelly (00:26) Yes.   Yeah, thank you. As always, I love Michelle and her work and yay. And I remember when you were writing your book, I was like, it was motivating me. was like, we're kind of like near each other, but then yours came out and it was awesome. And then I'm like, wait, where's my book? And so I'm Kelly. I go by Spirit Baby Media, medical intuitive and mentor. And I support that conception and pregnancy, birth loss in many different psychic energetic ways.   Michelle (00:37) I love Kelly!   you   Kelly (01:03) And my new book is called Notes from a Spirit Baby Medium, Everything You Need to Know About Spirit Baby Communication. And yeah, what else are we sharing? What do you want to know?   Michelle (01:15) Okay, let's talk about it all. Let's talk about first of all, what intuition is how you connect with it and how you've kind of like, figured out that you have that.   Kelly (01:27) Yeah, I love it. I actually I'm not going to divulge too much of this. I share a story in the beginning of the book on what brought me into the work. And it is a really fun story. And was like, Whoa, it's there. And so really, basically, I've always had extra sensory perception. I was born very different. Not only was it traumatic. I know we all have very traumatic, but sometimes in the trauma, you know, you work harder as the infant to be in the world. And sometimes it does open up other   levels of perceptions and abilities. And I didn't really fully discover that until I was a teenager. I feel like puberty is a very big time of expression. Puberty, you know, we can even go into like moon paws, I call it menopause, like these big, you know, shifts in our physiology, but also into our consciousness. And I just had feeling, perceptions, and it was nonstop after that until today. And I brought it.   my energetic psychological background, brought it into the energy of children and babies and supporting, again, the psychic, the energetic, the spiritual in therapeutic and loving ways. And the book has been written over a decade of my heart in the work. It's like, what have I seen? What have I known? And spirit baby communication is a term, but also,   There's not a lot of books now more after 2020. I feel like there's way more information. But before that, there really wasn't a lot about the before life. And I thought I've been writing the book for a long time and I go into the really the great mysteries because it's not like here is the here's the secrets of the before life, right? It's just like the afterlife of death. There's things that we feel and know because I do feel like it is inside us. There's a wisdom inside us that   Michelle (03:10) Mm-hmm.   Kelly (03:19) we are always in relationship with. my mission is to share that. And you just talk about intuition, it's all connected to that because we are naturally instinctually intuitive beings. And we can bring that in any part of our lives, whether in conception, outside of conception. And it's very valuable because we're all born too. We're all, my often joke is you were once a spirit baby being too. we don't, right?   Michelle (03:42) Mm-hmm.   I love that. That's great. It's true.   Kelly (03:49) Nobody thinks about that, but like, you know, let's say someone's on a fertility journey and they're struggling. Have you ever looked at your own birth into the world? Most people would say no. I don't know. My mom says it's good or she didn't like it or I wasn't breathing or she had birth loss before me or after and like, whoa, those are big things to the foundational formation of your reality and the consciousness of your parents in those times.   Michelle (03:59) Right.   Kelly (04:18) through loss, through struggle, through whatever, and they seep through, right? And so, yeah, remembering we were once all spirit baby beings and we come into this world and many of us, you know, looking to deepen that connection, like where are my children? I'm ready for that next level. And then I feel like then, know, Michelle, then the lessons begin. You know, there's, I don't think it's ever easy.   Michelle (04:35) Mm-hmm.   Yes.   Kelly (04:45) You know, like some people say, I guess it's all your perception of ease, right? Because having children is a huge heart commitment. It's not, you know, just, I don't think it's nonchalant. I think it's something powerful in in-between worlds that we bring life into this world. And that's something to reflect with too. It's incredible. And sometimes it takes longer for some people. And some people are still working towards it, you know?   Michelle (05:12) For sure. And I was thinking while you were talking, there's just so much we're not conscious of. I think about that, like when it comes to intuition, it's just that we all have it. It's built in. It's kind of part of our working. it's part of what made us. It's that connection to why we're here.   but we're so not conscious of so many things and we're not conscious of things that can actually provide us empowerment.   Kelly (05:43) No, and I blame culture, society, and subconscious programming. I have to laugh. We have to laugh sometimes because it could be very serious and there's a lot of fear. But I know me and Michelle, talked before, we're very optimistic, and even beyond that for the future that...   Michelle (05:51) Yeah.   Kelly (06:03) people will be intact with trusting their intuition more and more. And it's a really beautiful thing because your intuition is your own. It's not my intuition. Right? It's like, and that's the beautiful intelligence of just being alive and having a body is that we get to use our energy and connection with it in different ways. And sometimes we need to really slow down and be in the quiet, right?   Michelle (06:13) Yeah.   Kelly (06:27) through different practices to find our way, right? Especially when it's noisy, noisy life, noisy town, or maybe noisy city, noisy even upbringing, or maybe there's old energies that are noisy as well. But intuition is, to me, is a basic instinct. It's just like, yeah, like there, and you...   We do all use it all the time. Even if people feel like, I don't know if I use it. I'm like, you can distrust it and ignore it, but it's still there, right?   Michelle (06:57) Yeah, for sure. Without a doubt. I feel like we all remember a time where we didn't listen to it and it was something important. We all remember those times. We're like, I knew it. I knew it and I didn't listen. And of course we remember it it was such a strong lesson. We felt it and we're like, my God.   Kelly (07:07) Yes. Yes.   I think those are good when they happen. You know why? Because then it goes, you go, my gosh, like, see, like I told you so. And then you get to go, I feel like we get to stop and pause and have that awareness. And awareness is everything. And then almost to me is like creating a map of it, like a design.   Like, that's that connection and let's see what happens. And then you may be playing around with fear and intuition for a little bit to find the differences, which is very natural. But once we get really clear on ourselves, which is really through embodiment practices, through really healing our old traumas and our wounds, especially with parents, mother and father energies are so big because we get from that and we're like sifting through and finding where we are. And in that, you know,   Michelle (07:55) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Kelly (08:02) I pride myself in my intuition and I say that with such my own reverence because I do feel like I'm very intuitive and there's no shame in that. And I feel like are there times where I'm unintuitive? There are times where I'm fearful, but not unintuitive. I'm always intuitive, but the fear, if I know, I know myself very well that when fear comes up and there's sometimes, you know, I've managed it where it's fleeing these days.   Michelle (08:18) Mm-hmm.   Kelly (08:32) But sometimes big things will come in and I'm like, that sucks. I have to say it. I'm going, ooh, that's an unwinding. was like, ooh, this is big. And sometimes it has a lot to do with our, actually all the time it has to do with our past. Because present time, there's nothing wrong in the present time. And so, you know, it's like, learning the difference. And I do talk about that in my book, On a Conception Journey, Pregnancy Journey.   Michelle (08:36) Yeah.   Yeah, right.   Kelly (08:59) healing through lost journey, but I just think basic human nature journey, you're born, you're in a body, you were a baby being, it's like, you know, we're coming into re-remembrance more than anything with it. And that's great. And again, like you were saying, like, yeah, like, I've had times growing up where I could have been in bad situations, you know, when you're like in your 20s, like.   let's go party or do this. then something always shifted me and then something weird would happen. And I was like, whoa, what is that? So it also is very automatic pilot too. Sometimes we're not getting that like loud sound. it's, when that happens, I go, wow, okay. I was like, wow, I'm an automatic intuitive pilot sometimes. And I love that because it just means I'm just connecting with nature and just being, right?   That feels important.   Michelle (09:54) Yeah, for sure. And also talk about connecting with your own intuition as a person who may not be used to doing that.   Kelly (10:03) So the biggest obstacle to trusting intuition is going to be your past, right? And the environment that you're in creation with. just like, you know, because think about it when we were little children, we were so pure and intuitive and everything was connected. But then we become a part of the world in a way where we take on our families loads and lessons and it can even go further back. And we do sometimes have to find our way back to it and move into what was always there.   Michelle (10:08) Mm-hmm. Like the memory.   Mm-hmm.   Kelly (10:33) Right? So I think if somebody's saying, well, I'm not intuitive and I don't know what I'm doing, I'd say, are you grounded in your body even? And where is your body? Like, what is this vessel? And where is your own heart energy? Right? There's so many different ways we can take it. And then I think that hanging out with other people of like heart, like mind is infectious. And it will change our frequency and vibration to be in those spaces.   Michelle (10:41) Mm-hmm.   Kelly (11:00) So communities, this is the future forward energy is all about community. Even I just presented on an energy lecture for fertility community and the women were just amazing because it's like they have that synergistic connection and they were more connected than they probably realize, right? Because that's what we do. We may not even realize it. And I love that because it makes life more spontaneous and but also we're relational. We want connection.   Michelle (11:02) Yeah, this is true, 100%.   Mm-hmm.   Right.   It's true. it, I feel like when you combine energies, just multiplies the vibe.   Kelly (11:38) Yes. Yes.   Michelle (11:40) And when you are going through, you know, I'm going to give you an example. have one of my patients and it happens sometimes where it takes a really long time for them to conceive and they struggle and they go through IVF and then that doesn't work. And I had one actually recently who after finally, after a year and then some of coming to me, she finally spontaneously got pregnant.   but she had connected with her spirit baby because she got these crazy signs that were insane. I'm going to eventually have her on the podcast once she gives birth because I want her to get through it and then have her come on so she could tell the story. but so I have people going through that, but like before you even get to that point,   It could be so daunting. And then you're just wondering why is this not happening? So I know for every individual, it's very unique, but I wanted to get your thoughts on that. Like why sometimes it gets derailed. It eventually happens, but why it can get derailed for so long. And is that something that connects with the spirit of baby's timing or what are your thoughts on that?   Kelly (12:52) There's probably a lot of different answers for that one, right? Because everybody has their own connection and journey. And it is quite baffling when you're like, deepening and working and then all of a sudden, wow, what just happened? And I think it's pretty even more profound that she actually received communication and that she listened. Yeah, you gotta tell me when this episode comes because I'm so curious.   Michelle (12:55) Yeah.   She got crazy communication. Some of the stuff was so insanely, it was crazy. She'd get bottle of wine. It was a name that she just knew that it was going to be the name and then she saw the name on TV and then she'd get a bottle of wine with that name and it's not a typical average name.   Kelly (13:29) Yeah.   Yeah, yeah, yeah.   Michelle (13:34) And it was a girl's name and she knew it was going to be a girl based on that. And even when she got pregnant, she was like, I know it's going to be a girl. She told even the doctors like, whatever, I know it's going to be a girl. And it was a girl. It was just so insane and like really amazing. she kept seeing that before she even conceived. And she kept seeing that also when she had her failed retrievals and she was going to do another retrieval. And that's when she conceived naturally, just spontaneously. But it's   Kelly (13:41) Bye.   Yeah.   I love that. Yeah.   Michelle (14:03) know, it kind of defies the odds because you're like, well, I don't have any proof right now. And I can base it on my history and say, how's, how's this possible? How would this happen? But then it does.   Kelly (14:17) This is where I'd say, yeah, this is where I'd say some things live in the realms of mysticism, right? Especially with baby. And I know I've seen stuff like this happen before where it's like the struggle, the struggle, the struggle, and then pushing with intervention and all of a sudden baby comes naturally. And I've seen this with a few different women over the years. And it's like, it blows them away and they're so confused and everything comes down to frequency.   Michelle (14:44) Mm-hmm.   Kelly (14:44) And when I use the term frequency, every single person is set in tone to a certain frequency. And we can even look at it as though we have a sound to us. And you know this because think about people that you meet and you're like, do not get along with them or they don't even see you because your frequencies are different radio stations. And there's nothing wrong with that. And babies are coming in, they are coming in more evolved.   Michelle (14:56) Yeah. Yeah.   Right.   Kelly (15:08) And I'm not saying that the mother or father are not evolved enough, but there's something in the energy field from the history, sometimes from ancestors and the past that is still in clearing. And sometimes it has nothing to do with the mother or the father in a sense, but also has to do with the baby. But also sometimes it's just one side of the lineage of the energy in the family without blaming anybody. There's a lot of parts to that. And I feel like   when we can build a communication practice that feels connected and sometimes babies will just come in as that. It's just like, I'm coming in, please listen to me. I'm gonna send you signs, I'm gonna like throw it in your face. And some people, by the way, you know this, some people would still ignore it, right? It's like, so I suspect a lot of the women that I meet, especially over the many, years, oftentimes miss the sign symbols.   Michelle (15:48) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Right. Yes.   Kelly (16:04) that are coming through and they'll say something and I'm like, you literally just told me, I don't know if you realize that, that is your baby communicating. It was like, whoa, really? Because we're looking for something really big, right? And you can get those big signs, but you're gonna have to go deep into your multi-dimensional self. You're gonna have to really cut away this reality in a way that is gonna let your own energy grow and see the very many possibilities.   Michelle (16:34) Yes, key.   Kelly (16:34) And if you can't, it's okay. I have a friend who sometimes I talk to her and she's like, I don't know what you just said, right? So I'm like, yeah. I love her and it's just like, but it's so honest. Yeah. And this is the story of my life. I'm starting to get used to that because I just got into this massive rant yesterday with my husband and he's just like looking like, okay.   Michelle (16:46) I can relate to that.   Kelly (17:02) I was like, I know it doesn't make sense, but I was like, it's hard to put the energetic frequency vocabulary into this earth body and knowledge. It's almost like it feels a lot harder. I know many of you that are tuning in, are in communication more than you realize. Some will be very visual and feeling and auditory and others, it may be more dull. But what I do know is that babies do hear their parents. And so even if you're in...   I'm communicating one-sided or through a serenade, through song, poetry, through words, through journaling. Your baby hears you, 100%. And the whole part of trusting that is like, feel like babies are awakening parents to wake up to themselves, to know who they are. And so many women I see is like, especially when there's a miscarriage or later loss, right? You are literally being initiated into two worlds of energy. And there's a deep healing in that and it's...   It's not so scary. Yes, grief is just terrible and my heart goes out and we feel it, but something else is like cracking through. It's like people use the word bringing heaven to earth, right? How are we going to do that? How are we bringing the death space, the heaven space, the earth space all together in a way where there's a sense of understanding harmony and connection? Well, we are in many different ways and some would disagree, but you know, again,   the energy of the baby realms, not even babies, so much more advanced. They're in communication with us all the time and we just have to be open. I say listen, but I know listen is a challenging word, but it's true. It's like full on body-heart listening. How about that?   Michelle (18:41) It's like receiving really. That's how I see it. It's kind of like being in a receptive place where I feel like sometimes you can get really used to speaking rather than receiving. But I'm talking about the subtleties too, you know, I think the subtleties are things that we don't often hear. And that's why I think meditation is so powerful because it gets us quiet enough to be able to receive, to almost kind of improve our antenna.   to receiving something outside of this world.   Kelly (19:09) I feel like, yeah, I love that. The three things I wanna say when you said that came up in my mind is like, really to achieve really good kind of spirit baby, fertile energy connections, conception struggles, is number one is knowing yourself in meditation, but not doing it without two and three. So two I would say is, do you have a healer, a guide?   coach or somebody that can actually work in love space with you. It's not just, I'm going to give you these instructions. Like I'm holding energy and love and connection with you because the practitioners and the healers, if their frequency is more elevated, guess what? You're not going to come in their space unless your frequency wants to move into that. And the third one would be people. I feel like community togetherness. I feel like those three is like literally just the best equation.   for healing and being heard and moving into your psychic space because think about it. You meet, you know, I know you meet many women as I do where they feel like I call, I'll call it right now a psychic loneliness. They have these extra sensory perceptions. They feel like they're alone.   Michelle (20:16) Mm-hmm.   Kelly (20:21) what am I doing with it? I feel like I'm just, it's not worth anything. And then you see the light or at least I do in them, they just start sparking up like, my gosh, you see me, you hear me, you know me, I'm allowed to speak this way. And then it adds to the journey, adds to their up leveling of their own inner frequency of co-creation really with life and where you want it to, where they're wanting to go and build those next parts, you know?   Michelle (20:47) Definitely. Well, I don't know if you know this, you probably know this, that I'm like, really love Joda Spence's work and I just came back from a retreat and every time I go, I learned something new. And one of the things the big thing that he really talks about is that   we hold a frequency, our emotions hold a frequency. And so when we have certain emotions, what we typically do is we wait for the outside world, which really is our manifestation of whatever is going on inside internally. When we wait for the outside world to shift so that our inside can feel better, but it's actually the opposite. It's kind of holding a frequency that we want or an emotion or a vibration that we want, and that will influence the outside world.   Kelly (21:33) you   Michelle (21:33) there's a lot of science that is showing us that our thoughts and our consciousness and our controlled consciousness and kind of like lasered perspective and perception can impact matter. And they're seeing that with there's a show that I was watching on Gaia. I forget what it was called. I think it was like the creative universe or something like that. But   Kelly (21:47) Hmmmm   Michelle (21:56) I remember the exact name. And they were talking about these professors at major universities talking about quantum physics and how we are so attached to an old paradigm of reality, which is way more materialist, but that is such a small perspective in that whenever we see something that's outside of that, lot of times scientists will dismiss that because it doesn't fall under their   Kelly (22:10) you   Michelle (22:24) perspective and what they have solidified as real. And so it becomes very dogmatic and we're not really seeing the truth of reality and the truth of reality does not just consist of the matter. It also consists of consciousness and the interplay between the two. And it's really fascinating. So basically our consciousness can impact the world in which we're seeing this,   Kelly (22:32) Mm.   Michelle (22:51) that our consciousness is perceiving. And not only that, this is starting to become realized in science. So this is what's crazy about it is you were talking about us reawakening, but it's not just within ourselves. We're actually starting to see this in the world.   Kelly (23:11) And I think we're gonna start seeing more. I that there's gonna be more, I call it almost like a light switch. Like some of us will be in the trenches like waiting around like, what's happening? I always have to laugh like, what's happening? Like are people, yeah, yeah. So what's gonna happen with a lot of the sleepers? It's gonna be a light switch and so all of a sudden people are just gonna be on. It's some of the people that slow. I feel like for me it's like,   Michelle (23:23) Yeah, there are the people that are sleeping when you're sleeping. You don't want to wake up. It's too comfortable.   Mm-hmm.   Kelly (23:39) I felt, actually felt like an awakening at 15 years old. So I've had to go through the trenches for, along the trenches. I think more of the awakenings came in the 1950s even, but it's like, and then it's been a journey where it's like, am I allowed to speak this way in a dense world where they're like, no, I was like not allowed to speak this way. I was very shy, quiet, kept things very inward. And of course the, you know.   Michelle (23:42) Mm-hmm. You were one of the first early risers.   Kelly (24:06) as humanity keeps shifting, we have permission, right? It's like, all of a sudden we're allowed to own our own connections and we see it more and more, but it's gonna be like a light switch. But I love what you just shared. That's freaking amazing because when you said that, it made me think of like water. You know, people are doing these experiments again where they're like yelling at water and like, this like really, but like not just yelling at the water, but like giving your like dark energy to it and then connecting with, and you're just thinking.   Michelle (24:10) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Yeah, you could see the crystals.   intention.   Kelly (24:35) my gosh, because when you think about we're made up of so much water, it's like, my gosh, like what is the impact on that? And you're right, there is the science spirit kind of, I always feel like they touch each other, but I still really feel they're supposed to be separate. They can intertwine with each other and science believes that they have to prove everything, but they can't, it's silly to me. And I feel like we're evolving out of that because everybody...   Michelle (24:39) Yep. Yeah.   Yes.   Kelly (25:04) has a different energetic perspective, but also we're in different frequencies. So we're not gonna have the same things. It's like medicine, it's like healing. Yeah.   Michelle (25:12) But it is a form of communication where it's going to awaken people who are very, or identify as more science-based minded. And so that it does include that group of people.   And I think that that's important as well, because for a while what happened was in this documentary, that one guy was saying that people used to believe in transcendence and they believed in this kind of like a, this spiritual world until science came along and then dismissed it. And then they said, well, that can't be true. And so that it kind of like took us away from that spiritual aspect. And it was kind of looked down upon from, an educational perspective. And then.   Kelly (25:25) Yeah.   Hmm.   Michelle (25:52) Now they're starting to see it. Now, of course, the idea is, that when consciousness is able to impact reality, there is no way you're going to fully be able to dissect that. It's just not going to be possible because it's constantly ever flowing, ever changing as much as your imagination. So you can never really that down. However, it still gives way to somebody who's completely asleep and does not.   Kelly (26:02) No.   Yes.   Michelle (26:19) look at the spiritual aspect naturally as we do to open up to it. So kind of like in some weird way, I believe that it's meant to be because it is one way to get everybody on the same page. And then eventually, of course, really awakened.   Kelly (26:30) Hmm.   Yeah, you say that I get this image of somebody wrapped up in their little blanket on the bed in their slumber. Like, hello, it's time to wake up. It's time to wake up. Let's shake things up. But some things do get really shaken up and other times you, you know, I've watched a lot of people involved and from afar and some more intimately. And it's quite fascinating because somebody that has future information at times or medical intuition, I want to fix everybody and heal them.   Michelle (26:46) Yes. Yes. It's like bright light.   Mm-hmm.   Yes. I totally understand you. I get you. I feel the same way.   Kelly (27:09) And then I have to step away and look and go, it's none of my business, right? Yeah. This is a good one. You tell yourself it's none of my business because we're not in charge of that. think that if we are evolving in our own space, then we ripple, right? And I know you know that it's like, that's the piece because I had to watch it. Yeah. Especially with family. Family is really hard, right? Family, you're just like,   Michelle (27:25) Yes. I think that's the hardest part of doing our work or being healers. It really is. Yes, that's the hardest part. I think that's the biggest challenge is like when you know what you know and you know that it can benefit somebody and you could be like, here, I'll give you the key. I know exactly what you need, but you can't say that. You can't until they're ready or they ask because   Kelly (27:47) It's very painful. I've even seen that with friends of friends and I'm like, just walk away Kelly, because you just, I'm like, can't, it's hard. We all have different levels of suffering. But then when you see people really suffering and you're like, ugh, like, yeah, it's like, okay. And then I have to go inward to my own suffering and go, what is that? What is the need?   Michelle (27:57) Mm-hmm.   Kelly (28:10) I know you want to help that person, but they are not there. They don't want that. And it's like, I just have to send that with love and just peace and not dwell on it. Right? Because it's like, that's all we can do.   Michelle (28:11) Right, exactly.   Yep, 100%. It's like, you're just aware of it. It's almost like being like a neat freak or like a personal organizer for a living and then going to a really messy place and you're like, okay, I just have to let go of that right now and just let it be.   Kelly (28:32) I wanna like, yeah, yeah.   Yeah, and then ground into our own self, create our own boundary and then just be like, okay, it is what it is. But I think I always wonder if that will be ongoing in my reality because of who I am. Like I just see things through a different lens and I know that and I've accept that. And I used to think it was really bad. And I used to think that something was wrong with me. And now I've moved into deeper levels of self love that I...   Michelle (28:42) Yeah.   Kelly (29:05) perceive things differently and it's okay if people don't understand it. It doesn't really matter. I say as long as we're just connecting with love and respect and presence with each other because we're not gonna all understand our own individual journey, especially in conception. know, some struggle, everybody struggles in a different way or even birth loss. Everybody miscarries in a different way. Yes, there's like, there's a topic, there's this, that, but the impact.   Michelle (29:10) Yeah.   Yeah, for sure.   That's true.   It's true.   Kelly (29:32) is gonna be very unique for each person. And it is a real deep spiritual calling when there's this conception struggle or there's loss. If we can just begin more to nourish it, even in the medical environments, to look at it, and I'm sure you do, from that more whole space, but also like, okay, you're a physical body, but how are you feeling in your emotions? Like, our emotions dictate so much of our health, you know?   Michelle (29:54) Yeah.   yeah, big time. And I think a big part of it is really not learning how to process them or having that shut down that aspect of it. know a lot of people, they go to the doctor, they miscarry in the hospital or the doctor says, just go home and go back to your life. And there's no, there's no in between. And I mean, their spouses aren't like,   skilled in therapy, like they don't know how to go through it either. And so it's kind of like, it's a really difficult thing because you're just like, now what, how do I process this? And part of it is really allowing yourself to digest emotions, just like you do food, you need to process it so that it doesn't sit and stagnate and then get stored in the body.   Kelly (30:42) I've had women speaking about miscarriage for a moment, because this is a very big topic I can get into because it's a lot of my specialty accidentally has come through in my work over decade. And what I noticed is that the biggest thing when a woman goes into has a miscarriage, the first thing I want them to go into is tenderness and self-compassion. And I say, you don't have to think about what the next step is. There's no plans. And women that don't slow down, I see they have a major   Michelle (30:50) Yeah.   Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Kelly (31:12) traumatic energetic wounds to heal. And it's okay, that may or may not happen, but it's more of like addressing, can you slow, because I, you know, a woman has lost, there's pain, there's feeling, I don't want to slow down, right? Maybe that's even it too. And everybody says I'm okay, I'm moving forward, but then I hear, you know, I've many times where, well my partner, especially male partner,   Michelle (31:14) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Kelly (31:33) They don't understand. I don't know if they feel anything or sometimes they feel so wrecked inside. They don't know how to deal with it. And I'm like, what is this what we're doing to the world of like, know, miscarriages of birth loss. There's even if it's the tiniest spec, there's a connection there and the body feels the separation of light. And there is no respect and women need to intuitively, right, wake up.   Michelle (31:38) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Kelly (31:58) to feel like they deserve that. But when we're in grief, we're not very clear when we're in literally the traumatic moment of grief. You're not like, okay, I'm gonna go, you know, do this, do that. I remember my recent deaths I've had to deal with. My friend was like, what do you need? And I said, I don't know. And she's like, well, let me do something. I'm like, I don't know. Because I was just so in the weeping.   Michelle (32:02) That's true. Yeah. It's true.   Yeah.   Kelly (32:25) the overwhelm, the visitation and the healing of it. And what she did was so communal, she brought me over homemade soup and bread. And I remember just not eating like at all because that's where I was in the beginning. And I'm just like, I guess I can try to eat. And it just lifted my spirits. I'm like, yeah, I need food. And just to have her there and just to share some memories and feelings. And it was like, this is what we're not taught, right? It's like, so.   Michelle (32:35) love that.   that's really beautiful. Yeah.   It's true.   Kelly (32:55) when there's a loss or birth loss, infant loss, child loss, and you're not in it, like maybe it's a friend or a family member, you have to step in. They're not gonna ask you anything. And I feel like, yeah.   Michelle (33:05) Right, that's true. And just really the presence. I think the presence is the medicine. That's the comfort.   Kelly (33:12) Yeah, and it's gonna happen. There's gonna be, know, loss is gonna happen, but it's again, I think addressing it. And I do have a whole chapter on miscarriage specific loss, but I also have something really cool in the book. I feel like I haven't shared this enough. I keep forgetting. There are seven QR code meditations in the book that you can actually click and listen live. Not live, but like it has music to it. And then they're made specifically through certain areas where one is pregnancy.   Michelle (33:30) Ooh, I love that.   Kelly (33:41) One is conception, I have a couples one you can use. I also have for fertility, like embryonic connection, miscarriage, I even have stillbirth, which is, know, later loss. I even have termination. There are specific meditations made that I feel like can just help provide that heart communication and just moving forward with spirit baby awareness. Yeah, I love that I was like, put that in there.   Michelle (34:02) Mm, I love that.   Kelly (34:07) And then it has a link too. if you can, you like, can't use the QR code. There's a link and it's like literally linked to my website and you'll have it forever and you can download them. And there are some favorites people are telling me right now, like, I really love this one. And I do it all the time. it's really fun to hear that because it was one of my favorite ones that I made like a long time ago. And it's interesting that people are so linked in and some are more visual feeling. It's a little bit of everything. Cause I know we have a little   you know, we all have different connections. And so that you get that in the book as well.   Michelle (34:36) It's true.   my God, I love that. Well, you guys got to check out her book. It is amazing. It is notes from a spirit baby medium, everything you need to know about spirit baby communication. It is an amazing book. I've read it myself.   I got to have an insider's peak before it came out. And and I just know Kelly comes and does her work from the heart, like fully full on from the heart and from the light. And really anything that she talks about, is aligned with light. So I highly recommend you guys check out her book.   Kelly (34:58) That's right.   Michelle (35:19) I highly recommend you guys check out her and for people actually who do want to check you out, how can they find you?   Kelly (35:28) So the best way to reach me is at newearthchildren.com or it's also spearbabymedium.com and my Instagram, a lot of people love connecting there is at Spear Baby Medium.   And you can, yeah, check it out. And there's even a book page so you can access the book. And it's offered through Amazon. It's offered through IngramSpark, which is global distribution Barnes and Noble. And you can get paperback or an ebook. And I just recently put on my website a PDF because I don't have ebooks. so if you're like, I want that PDF. There you go. I have everybody covered.   Michelle (35:59) Mm-hmm.   Perfect. And she also has an amazing podcast.   Kelly (36:09) Yes, thank you Spirit Baby Radio, which I'm coming up to 200. Yay. Thank you. Yay.   Michelle (36:13) Amazing. Congrats and congrats on the book and always amazing talking to you. And I'm so happy you got to come on today and thank you for joining us today.   Kelly (36:27) Yes, as always, Michelle, I love you. Thank you for having me. It's always fun. And I'm very excited to keep sharing the beautiful work, similar to what you do, bringing in that deep level of consciousness, healing. And I know you bring spirit baby energies into your space too. Thank you.   Michelle (36:44) Awesome. you.  

In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Dr. Amelia Kelley @drameliakelley , a trauma-informed therapist, discusses her journey and insights into high sensitivity, coping mechanisms, and the impact of trauma on mental health. She explores the differences between empathy and compassion, the importance of understanding one's nervous system, and shares her personal fertility journey, highlighting the integration of holistic approaches such as acupuncture and herbal medicine. In this conversation, Dr. Amelia Kelley and Michelle explore the complexities of pregnancy loss, trauma, and the role of the nervous system in fertility. They discuss the importance of letting go of control and embracing spirituality, as well as the dynamics of being a highly sensitive person (HSP). The conversation delves into the benefits of body awareness and how it can aid in healing, while also addressing the challenges HSPs face in relationships and daily life. Ultimately, they highlight the adaptive nature of high sensitivity and its prevalence in the population, encouraging listeners to embrace their sensitivity as a gift rather than a burden.   Takeaways   Coping skills should be viewed as a lifestyle. High sensitivity is a genetic trait, not a flaw. Empathy can have negative health effects. Highly sensitive people require more alone time for regulation. Generational trauma can impact reproductive health. Understanding one's nervous system is crucial for coping. Holistic approaches can aid in fertility journeys. Stress and nervous system balance are crucial for fertility. Highly sensitive people (HSPs) experience the world differently. Body awareness can enhance healing processes. HSPs often respond more positively to therapeutic interventions. High sensitivity is an adaptive trait found in many individuals. Embracing sensitivity can lead to greater self-awareness and compassion.   Guest Bio:   Dr. Amelia Kelley is a trauma-informed therapist, author, co-host of The Sensitivity Doctor's Podcast, researcher, and certified meditation and yoga instructor. Her specialties include art therapy, internal family systems (IFS), EMDR, and brainspotting. Her work focuses on women's issues, empowering survivors of abuse and relationship trauma, highly sensitive persons, motivation, healthy living, and adult ADHD.    She is currently a psychology professor at Yorkville University and a nationally recognized relationship expert featured on SiriusXM Doctor Radio's The Psychiatry Show as well as NPR's The Measure of Everyday Life. Her private practice is part of the Traumatic Stress Research Consortium at the Kinsey Institute.    She is the author of Powered by ADHD: Strategies and Exercises for Women to Harness their Untapped Gifts (whichhas a corresponding online support group!), Gaslighting Recovery for Women: The Complete Guide to Recognizing Manipulation and Achieving Freedom from Emotional Abuse, coauthor of What I Wish I Knew: Surviving and Thriving After an Abusive Relationship, as well as Surviving Suicidal Ideation: From Therapy to Spirituality and the Lived Experience, and a contributing author for Psychology Today, ADDitude Magazine, as well as Highly Sensitive Refuge, the world's largest blog for HSPs. Her work has been featured in Teen Vogue, Yahoo News, Lifehacker, Well + Good and Insider.   You can find out more about her work at https://www.ameliakelley.com.   Follow her on Instagram @drameliakelley   https://www.instagram.com/drameliakelley/   https://www.facebook.com/DrAmeliaKelley   https://www.linkedin.com/in/drameliakelley/   https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-your-corner       For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Check out Michelle's Latest Book: The Way of Fertility! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:     Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast Amelia.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (00:02) Thank you for having me. It's good to see you again.   Michelle (00:04) It's so good to see you. So Amelia's had me on her podcast, the sensitivity doctors in the past, and I would love for you to share your background. I am really interested and very intrigued by what you do because it's something that we spoke about. I totally relate to. I love the fact that you've authored so many books and have such an interesting background. So I would love to have the.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (00:26) Hehehe   Michelle (00:30) audience hear you.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (00:32) Sure. Well, I'm currently in my office. So I'm a trauma informed therapist, professor, and podcaster, which is how you and I met. And I've been in the field for 20 years now. I primarily work with trauma of various forms, but a lot of it is interpersonal trauma, relationship trauma, some issues with sexual abuse, some instances where I also work with per...   a lot of first responders, so cops, doctors, and also folks from the military. So I'd say that my work is kind of an intersection. I sometimes call myself an integrative therapist because just before our session, I was doing a yoga therapy session. I do everything from EMDR, brain spotting, yoga therapy, art therapy is actually my background, sand play therapy.   Michelle (01:02) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (01:27) I'm so into the brain too. I mean, I'm not, I would not say that my practice is comprehensive in neurofeedback. We do some minor interventions, but I love referring my clients to practitioners in the area to make sure that their brain health is on par too. And I also love referring to Carolina Clinic of Natural Medicine is my favorite in the area, but they do things like acupuncture and.   Michelle (01:40) Hmm.   Mm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (01:54) kind of holistic health, which I know really aligns with what you do. So, yeah.   Michelle (01:59) it's interesting because as you start to do anything, you start to find out how many different layers and different ways and methodologies that certain people respond to better than others. there's just so many different methods. And I think that some people just respond better to some.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (02:10) Right.   Right.   yeah. I think that's a great thing about coping skills. First and foremost, I love the idea of obliterating this idea that a coping skill is like work or that it's something that you only do when you're struggling. I think it's more of a lifestyle. And everyone is going to respond differently. Like I know I personally...   Michelle (02:35) Yes.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (02:41) water is very big for me. Like if I'm really stressed or I'm dysregulated, getting in hot water or cold water is very regulating for my nervous system. Whereas I have clients who the last thing they want to do when they're stressed or dysregulated is shower or get in water. It's actually one of the first things that they stop wanting to do.   Michelle (02:51) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:04) So it's so interesting seeing how we all respond differently, I think, in our own unique nervous system when we're under stress.   Michelle (03:11) Yeah, definitely. I find that also with my patients. mean, some people, be much more open to like things like meditation, other people, there's other ways to self soothing, which I call it, because ultimately, that's really what it is. So yeah, it definitely isn't work. sounds like work.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:20) Mm   Mm-hmm.   Right.   Michelle (03:30) but it's not work. think the biggest work is really the strategy and kind of figuring it out. But ultimately it's really there to soothe you at times that you feel overwhelmed.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:35) Mm-hmm.   Absolutely. I couldn't agree more.   Michelle (03:44) So let's talk about the sensitive person because I've always felt that that was something that I can describe myself as when I was younger. It was something that I felt I found myself more overwhelmed by noises, by certain people's energy than other people. And people would just be like, you're too sensitive or you focus on things too much. And   Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:52) Mm   Okay.   Michelle (04:08) It was something that I realized, as I met other people like me. I was like, wait, this is kind of a thing. And then when I learned about it, that it really is a thing, I found it really interesting. And it also, I found it very comforting. So it's like, okay, I'm like, I'm not abnormal. Like this isn't crazy. Yeah. So I would love for you to talk about that. So I feel like a lot of people can relate.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:14) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Right, Mm-hmm.   Definitely, and I know my aha moment was a big deal to me. It was years ago now. I stumbled upon Dr. Elaine Aaron, who is kind of the pioneer of some of the modern research on high sensitivity on her documentary, Sensitive, the Untold Story.   And it was one of those light bulb aha moments that made so much of my life make sense. Interestingly though, when I dug a little deeper, she was not the of the originator of this. It was actually research done in the 80s on babies and their responses to different stimuli. Things like they had...   Michelle (04:59) you   Mm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (05:17) auditory stimulation with like a creepy face making sound. had light stimulation, physical stimulation. And what they found was that the babies who were more reactive, they were calling high reactive babies, you know, which down the road became high sensitivity. But the really interesting thing is that the researchers went and followed up with these babies who are now in their midlife, you know, they're in their   I'd say probably 40s at this point, 30s and 40s. And they're finding that those high reactive babies still are more reactive adults. And so this doesn't mean someone who's highly emotional or can't control their temper when we think of reactivity. It's more, what is your reaction to sensory input? And certain brains, it is genetic.   Michelle (06:07) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (06:10) So it's a predisposition. It is a genetic trait. It is not a diagnosis. It is not something to fix. It is rather something to learn from and grow with and manage and live life in that way. And so it's highly genetic. And for that reason, I'm not surprised I have kids who are definitely highly sensitive. And high sensitivity can express in so many different ways. It can look like   Michelle (06:10) you   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (06:39) hypersensitivity to medication, sensitivity to light, to sound, to being rushed to other people's emotions. That's a big part. The empathy piece is very strong. I think it's really important to understand the difference between empathy and compassion when we consider highly sensitive people. you, like when I say that, does that make sense to you? Do you want me to unpack that?   Michelle (06:52) Mm-hmm.   It does. mean, so what I'm perceiving in that is that empathy is kind of like almost giving more of your own personal energy to something versus just feeling compassion and understanding that another person's emotions or perspectives without almost taking it on. I'm not sure if I'm on or not.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:08) Mm-hmm.   Well, mean, I think that's we can all define it differently, but I guess if I was going to scientifically define compassion and empathy. So empathy is our ability to feel what someone else is feeling. We all tend to know that definition. However, the interesting thing is that empathy has a negative impact on your immune health and it increases inflammation. Right. And so when we consider the fact that highly sensitive people   Michelle (07:34) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Well, that's interesting.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:56) have more active mirror neurons, which means the areas of their brain designed to plan social interactions, problem solving around social interactions, and even something as simple as, as a highly sensitive person, one of my ways to decompress is to watch like trashy reality TV at night. And so I will find myself as I'm watching these dating shows, smiling with the contestants.   Michelle (08:15) Yeah   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (08:23) or frowning with them. Sometimes I kind of laugh when I catch myself doing it. As a highly sensitive person, those areas of the brain are so much more active. And so it does make us have higher levels of empathy. But when you consider the fact that that can negatively impact your body, if you don't have enough boundaries around them, empathy is pro-social. It helps us get along, but also too much can be draining.   Michelle (08:32) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (08:50) And so compassion is actually kind of the anecdote to empathy because compassion is centered around the desire to act or help. And so this, when we think of self-compassion, the act of speaking to yourself kindly is an act. So you empathize for yourself, I feel bad today because I made a mistake. Just thinking of an example. The compassion is,   Michelle (08:50) Right.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:18) I'm going to choose to speak to myself kindly and with love because that will be curative for me. Whereas if you stay in an empathy response, you just continue to feel bad about whatever mistake you made, right? And so for highly sensitive people, it's exponentially important to lean into compassion and we can't all go out and save the world all the time. So sometimes this looks like well-wishing meditation.   Michelle (09:24) Done it.   Got it.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:46) processing with other like-minded people, those can be ways to express compassion that doesn't all have to be going out. And I remember, do you remember the movie Free Willy?   Michelle (09:58) yeah, but I don't remember if I saw it or I don't remember the actual movie. wait, though. It was the one with the whale, right? Yes. Yeah.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:06) Right, it was fiction, obviously, but as an HSP or an HSC at the time, a highly sensitive child, when that movie was over, I was destroyed at the thought of all these whales in the world who need help. And so my gracious parents who encouraged my sensitivity helped me find an organization where could adopt a whale. So it's like, and I mean, who knows what's happening. We probably paid $20 and...   Michelle (10:29) that's cute.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:34) I've adopted a whale, who knows, but it was the act of taking my empathy response and putting it into action with compassion that was curative for my little highly sensitive child heart.   Michelle (10:34) Yeah.   Hmm.   That's beautiful. actually really love that. And it also makes you feel like there's more purpose in the feelings that you're having. You're kind of taking the feelings and creating purpose with it.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:57) Absolutely. That's such a way of putting it.   Michelle (11:01) And one thing too, that I was thinking about when you were talking about being highly sensitive, which I could tell you right now, I 100 % am self-diagnosed. The nervous system, I think to myself about the nervous system and possibly that having something to do with it, just having a more heightened sensitive nervous system.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:09) Mm-hmm   Mm-hmm.   Michelle (11:22) Besides obviously the antidote and kind of like using or acting or doing, to translate the empathy, but as one part of regulating the nervous system, learning to manage the nervous system, doing things like you said, like when you get home, take a shower, do something that really connects with your nervous system, I feel like is a really great tool. And figuring out what that is, is that something that you often look into?   Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:49) Absolutely. Because if you think about just a handful of the questions that I was posing that help you identify if you're highly sensitive, a lot of them have to do with nervous system response. highly sensitives are more responsive to caffeine, drugs and alcohol, pain tolerance, hunger cues even, are more, you know, felt more intensely. So with HSPs, the nervous system, specifically the limbic   system is more active. And this is something that can be seen on actual scans of HSP brains. It is. It's wild. so I was having a really interesting conversation with Michael Allison, who is one of the instructors for the Polyvagal Institute. And he was talking about, I don't think if he really fully bought into the HSP thing, I think he sees everything through the Polyvagal world.   Michelle (12:20) Mm-hmm.   That's so interesting.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (12:48) And which I totally appreciate. There's different ways to look at our nervous systems. But he said something when we were talking about highly sensitive that really struck a chord to your point about the nervous system. He was saying when our nervous system alerts danger and for him that means the vagal break is off and the vagus nerve is overactive, the heart rate is up, fight flight. When we're not feeling safe.   It's usually because we're attending to something we think we need to attend to because it's out of sorts. And so the highly sensitive person, a look on your face could alert danger to me. Like someone seeming off or upset or concerned could signal that. And so for the highly sensitive person,   Michelle (13:23) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:42) They need more time and research has shown up to two hours of unstructured alone time per day is most quote prescribed for highly sensitive. And so the reason being is that our baseline is higher all the time. And so we need more things to regulate the nervous system so that sounds and things and emotions aren't pulling us out of our safety zone so quickly.   Michelle (13:49) Mm-hmm.   Right.   Mm-hmm.   my God, that makes sense on so many levels. I always felt like I needed, I need alone time. Like after a while, I just need to be by myself. need quiet. I need peace. And I totally understand what you're saying. And then also what's interesting is I remember when I was younger, always being afraid, like if somebody was mad at me or like, I would kind of feel a tone of like, my God, are they mad at me? And I get like really upset. And now I had to like learn to   Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:19) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Yes.   Michelle (14:42) just be like, okay, it's not that big of a deal. Maybe they were having a bad day, you know, sort of speak to myself on that, but that makes sense. And then I noticed that with my daughter, if sometimes I'll be busy and I won't respond with like a, you know, a full response, I'll be like, okay, okay, we'll talk later or whatever. Are you mad at me? And I always tell her, believe me, I would tell you I'm pretty clear about like what I'm happy about and not happy, you know.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:52) Mmm.   Hmm.   Right.   Michelle (15:07) And, but it's interesting. She'll kind of read between the lines with me. And she's like me, she just took after me. So it's kind of, yeah, so she's 19.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:12) Mm   How old is she, I ask? OK, so she's older. I was going to say, I know a great workbook, but it's for younger kids. yeah, she definitely, especially if you are too, it wouldn't surprise me that she would also be highly sensitive because it is so genetic.   Michelle (15:23) Yeah.   And she got like that more as she got older when she went to college than even before, for some reason. I don't know if maybe because she has a lot more going on or, she's starting to regulate on a different level, her nervous system. Cause I think that coming from home, things shift and change.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:39) Mm-hmm.   Right.   Totally. mean, think it's research has shown that some high sensitivity traits, you know, can be very present in childhood, but then there's other different types of traits that become more expressed later in life. But   Michelle (16:04) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:06) I also beg to say, let's look at the external factors. You look at someone who is a highly sensitive child who didn't have to raise children, work a job, manage a home. So when you just keep adding more to your exactly, that can make those traits become more expressed too, I believe.   Michelle (16:16) Yeah, right.   Yep, responsibility. Yeah, for sure.   So I want to actually take this into your own journey, because I know you've had your fertility journey, because a lot of listeners, are going through the fertility journey. And I know a lot of people just based on my own clients and patients that are very sensitive and highly sensitive as well.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:38) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Michelle (16:48) I work a lot with them on, I don't know if you've ever heard of the NADA protocol. It's really good for PTSD. NADA, it's used, it's, yeah, yeah. So NADA, and it's a protocol that they use on the ears. it's like a, it's a series of ear points that we use like altogether.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:54) No. I love learning new things. Tell me. NADA. I have nothing to write on. Okay.   Michelle (17:12) And it works on regulating the nervous system. And it actually works amazing on it's even had published studies on working with vets, people with PTSD, like really major PTSD. Yeah. Yeah, I know. It's, it's really, really interesting. And, and also interestingly enough,   Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:23) I need a pen. Let me just grab one.   Do you use the mustard seeds or is it actual needles?   Michelle (17:33) So you could use the seeds. I use needles. I use needles. then some people, no, no, they're not mustard seeds, but they're seeds. And then some of the studies that were published, I think they even added electric stimulation. And what's interesting is it's not just really great for   Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:36) They're probably not called mustard seeds. I forgot what are they actually.   Mm-hmm.   cool.   Thank   Michelle (17:51) PTSD, but it's also really good for addiction. And interesting, if you think about the two, like what do they have in common? They're kind of like, it runs, they run on a loop. You know, it's this repeated either thoughts or behaviors. And it seems to kind of have that in common. Obviously it's two different things, but sometimes can cross over.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:56) wow.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   I love that. It's funny. It looks like you're on my podcast right now. So I'm like, let me take notes on what you're saying. You're so smart and knowledgeable in these areas. I love it. I will definitely check that out. I would be so curious if that's something that there are, like I said, a lot of veterans and addicts that I work with. And so I'm definitely going to look into that.   Michelle (18:16) So.   No, no, I know. It will...   I feel the same about you. it makes for a great conversation.   Yeah, definitely look into the studies. I think that that's, seeing the studies and seeing the numbers really makes a difference. And so that aspect of it is amazing. And also Joe dispense does work a lot of what he does helps tons of people with PTSD, like, they do scans and study the brains. It's pretty impactful. Yeah. Yeah. So back to you though, I would love to talk to you about how you feel, your nervous system.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (18:47) Mm-hmm.   That's really neat.   Michelle (19:10) Like how were you able to figure out a way to balance yourself through the journey, knowing what you know, and how do you think it's impacted you on that nervous system level and like the trauma, because I know that it can be very traumatic, even though people don't often talk about it like that. It should be, it should be highlighted in that way so that more people have awareness around it because it really is a very difficult process.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:16) Right.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Michelle (19:37) has even been compared to a cancer diagnosis. It's really significant.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:41) Wow. Well, and I actually have something about my story that integrates the two. So I think when I really look now and I understand my nervous system better, I think that the generational trauma that I was carrying with me into my reproductive years that I didn't understand that I didn't understand my high sensitivity. I didn't have a name for it. I didn't realize that that's what that was. I just thought.   I just felt too much all the time. What I think that was doing was that when I was ready to try to start having a family is that I had been in flight mode. And when people think of flight mode, they think of like running the coop. I had been in flight mode being overly productive. And I laugh because I'm still overly productive, but it's in a different energy now. It's in a completely different energy than it was then. But.   Michelle (20:34) Yeah.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:39) This flight mode, think what it was doing is it was putting my nervous system in a state, like you said on my podcast, where it was never able to rest. It was never able to replenish. so my cycle was totally dysregulated. I ended up, I don't know how detailed you want me to get, but I'm happy to share. OK, OK. So I started off, we had tried to get pregnant for a couple of years and it wasn't working. And at the time, I think about it,   Michelle (20:58) you can get as detailed as you need.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:09) I was in my doctoral program. I was working at a women's clinic and the methadone clinic and trying to start my practice all at the same time and just live life and be like a normal adult. And so we went the route of Western medicine at first. I love my doctor and he worked with me through the whole journey, but we tried Clomid and I got pregnant. But I think now that I know what I know about egg quality, thank you, Rebecca Fett. She's amazing.   Michelle (21:19) Bye.   Yeah, she's phenomenal. I know I've tried, but she like, she wasn't really doing them. Maybe she is now, but let me know if you get her. She's great. Yes.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:40) my gosh, I need to get her on my podcast. Let's like.   We're going to like, we'll just go not tap, tap, tap. Come on. now that I understand what I know now about egg quality, I think that the clomid forced an egg that really wasn't ready to be fertilized. And so we miscarried that baby. And that was the first miscarriage and definitely the most shocking and painful miscarriage. From there, did my, one of my, I think healthier   trauma coping mechanisms is research. And so I just dug in and I created this kind of like wellness plan for my husband and I had like printouts. What I didn't realize is that I was basically creating what Rebecca Fett recommends without realizing what in the world I was doing. And so I had us on a laundry list of vitamins and supplements and all these things. We got pregnant again, very.   Michelle (22:33) and   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (22:45) very luckily with our daughter, who is now nine. And then that was the end of that. was like, OK, that went OK. Maybe it was just like that first miscarriage. Lots of people have it, statistically speaking. Then we were trying for our second child. And I feel like that's when I really got introduced to the world that you're in, which is the Chinese herbal medicine and acupuncture, because we   I think I had already started working with my acupunctures at that time. again, we were having a hard time getting pregnant. And so they put me on like the most disgusting tea, but it was some sort of tea regimen and these herbs. And I was doing really cool acupuncture to your point with like the little electrodes and all of that. And I did get pregnant again, but that time ended up being a molar pregnancy.   Michelle (23:26) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:42) which you know what those are assume or I don't know if you're listeners.   Michelle (23:46) Yes, I remember learning about it. haven't had any of my patients have that, but I remember learning about it actually in school.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:54) Right. So the trauma of the first miscarriage was, would almost call that like acute trauma, whereas the trauma with the molar pregnancy. So a molar pregnancy, for anyone listening who doesn't know, is when the sperm and the egg join and the DNA markers are not turned on. So no actual baby starts forming, but a mass starts to form. And your body thinks you're pregnant, and so it spikes your HCG actually above kind of average levels.   I thought I was pregnant with twins. was so sick. So I go in and I'm, I want to say eight, seven, eight weeks at that point that I thought and they scanned and there's no baby, which felt like a miscarriage, but it wasn't. But what happened after it was that I still had to do a DNC and then I had to do monthly HCG tests to make sure that my levels were dropping because if your levels of HCG go up at any point, have to   Michelle (24:26) Mm-hmm.   Right.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:52) do chemo. So this was this chronic six month period where we couldn't try again. And every month I was going in afraid for my health.   Michelle (25:00) Mm-hmm.   my gosh.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:05) Right. So that was a totally different type of trauma. And then we got pregnant again. And that one we lost at 10 weeks because it was a little boy with downs. And then we finally got pregnant with our son that we have now. But I would say during that journey of those miscarriages, that was when I really dug deep into   Things like I was saying, like really taking everything serious with Chinese herbalism, looking at what I was putting in my body, looking at what was around me, my stress level, mean, meditation, really anything I could to balance my nervous system. And to your point, I think the nervous system played a role finally in us getting pregnant with our son because I think when you were on my podcast, I told you that   Michelle (25:47) Yeah.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:58) I was doing all these things, it wasn't working, and then finally I did that, quite essential, fine, I give up. I'm not doing this anymore. I went to my acupuncturist and I said, just do stress this time. Don't do any of the fertility treatments, please. I just don't want to even think about it anymore. And then it's so obnoxious to say, but three weeks later we got pregnant.   Michelle (26:04) Mm-hmm.   It's not, it is, it's something that I'm, well, I'm not just, know why you're saying that because people are like, what the heck? Like, it's kind of like the just relax kind of thing. saying just relax is not helpful. That's why people are like, okay, well then how, you know, that's the how, like, how do I relax? so actually let's talk about that. Cause that, that is a big thing. That's a big thing.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:32) Right, right.   Right. Well, I I let go of the outcome. Yeah, I think for me, it was letting go of the outcome. And I think that allowed my nervous system to get back to a safer baseline. To your point about asking about high sensitivity, I think what used to be the stress was work and school. The stressor became the goal.   Michelle (26:52) Yeah.   Yes. You know, I just hadn't, an aha, but if you want to continue, I did, I just had an aha. It's like you're taking on the responsibility of the goal. You think that it's all up to you and you're taking that weight on your shoulders. And I think that that's what it is is, and, I'm kind of thinking back cause I had Dr. Lisa Miller. I don't know if you've heard of her. She's yeah, she's amazing. You would love her. And I think she would be great on your podcast. So put her down as a   Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:06) Which, what? Ooh, no, I wanna hear it.   Mmm.   Mm-hmm.   I've heard that name.   and a jotter down.   Michelle (27:32) as an option or somebody. She went through the fertility journey, but separately from that, she's also a professor in Columbia. I think you would love talking to her because you're a professor as well. And she's a psychotherapist and she is studying spirituality in the brain.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:41) good. Yeah.   that's interesting. Okay.   Michelle (27:50) It's fascinating. And so they found looking at, scans of brains and how they're functioning, where they're lit up, that spiritual people who are spiritual have different brains, their brains look different. And this could be the same brain of somebody who used to not be spiritual and then became spiritual. It doesn't matter. And what's interesting is, so this is my, as you were talking, not to interrupt, hopefully you're trained a thought, but   Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:05) Interesting.   Mm-hmm.   Michelle (28:18) can come at life taking on the responsibility of every single part of our outcome and like fully micromanaging ourselves and bearing that weight or when we're spiritual, that means that we believe in a higher power or some kind of higher intelligence. We're relying on something else and not carrying all the weight. So we're just basically giving our intention out there, but, but also feeling safe enough. Like you said, safe, word safe.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:28) Thank   Mm-hmm.   Yes.   Michelle (28:46) to let go. So that was kind of my heart just came out.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:48) Hmm, absolutely. No, I love it. mean, the connection makes so much sense because and it kind of makes me think of why it doesn't have to be quote religion that someone leans into. It doesn't. It can literally be if you're someone listening who is an atheist and staunchly does not believe in a higher power, it could be energy. I mean, we can't there's no denying scientifically there's energy. mean, even   Michelle (29:01) Mm-hmm. No, no, it doesn't have to be religion.   Right?   True.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:18) plants have been proven to grow better when we speak to them because of the energy and probably the carbon monoxide, but like you're a carbon dioxide, but not monoxide. I'm not breathing carbon monoxide, but you can't deny energy. even if someone is not religious or I would say, I would want to ask her actually, does this hold true for someone who's not quote spiritual, but   Michelle (29:25) Yeah, yeah, yeah, dioxide. Totally. understood. Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:44) who gives up things to the idea of energy. I want to ask her that.   Michelle (29:48) That's a great question. when you do have her on, let me know, because I'll be listening to the podcast.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:53) for sure. For sure. Thanks for the tip for the, I'll definitely check her out and reach out.   Michelle (29:57) Yeah, but it's fascinating. And I think to myself, I think that that might be that trusting in something else, trusting in an outcome or kind of releasing or relinquishing that burden and that responsibility. And that I guess that that was the aha is like taking on that responsibility of really trying to, take on the outcome, like as if you really have all of the responsibility and how it turns out and that burden and that feeling and that blame.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:06) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Now I'm having an aha. Well, yes, I'm having an aha because high sensitivity. So I was talking about the mirror neurons earlier and the empathy overload with highly sensitives. Highly sensitive people, we do tend to naturally take on the responsibility of other people's emotions. And we also, even one of the questions that Dr. Aaron poses is,   Michelle (30:29) Tell me. This is great. We bounce off each other really well.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:54) Do you know how to make people comfortable in a room? Like things like changing the lighting and the volume and the temperature in the room. I think even as a highly sensitive person, we kind of naturally take on the responsibility of the environment. And that's why some HSPs who are not high sensation seekers, who are just, you know, kind of more of the traditional introverted expression of it, they really get overwhelmed in social settings and they don't love hosting.   Michelle (31:19) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:23) because it's too much to micromanage. I'm a high sensation seeking HSP, so I do enjoy hosting and having people over at my home. However, the hours leading up to the event, I need quiet and calm. I've got like a hairpin trigger nervous system leading up to inviting people in my space, even though I love it. It's like this weird.   Michelle (31:24) you   Mm-hmm.   Hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:52) dichotomy. yeah, letting go of responsibility, think, releases the nervous system of a highly sensitive person as well.   Michelle (32:00) Yeah. And it's so interesting that you're saying that because like, I look back at my childhood, I was a really good imitator. And that just makes sense because you pick up on the little details of people's behavior and energy and you mirror that like literally.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:09) Mmm. Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm so curious and envious because I'm terrible at accents. Like, terrible. Really? Mm-hmm.   Michelle (32:26) Yeah, I used to, I would do it even when I wasn't trying. I would start to take on like, I would do it on purpose and when I wasn't trying, like I would just pick up on like certain behaviors or certain like tones and things. And I would kind of like take on like the energy of friends that would have very specific ways of talking. And I would almost be like, like I would catch myself. like, that's weird. I don't want to do that.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:35) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   You're like, I don't want to look like I'm really imitating them. This might get awkward.   Michelle (32:55) For sure. But it's just so fascinating. and then you're talking also highly sensitive persons that they could also have glucose sensitivity. You were saying you were talking about the physical sensitivity, right? Like that sometimes it could be allergies or other things and it's not just emotional.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:06) Mmm.   Mm-hmm. Well, so if you think about, it's not that they're going to have more unstable blood sugar from a technical medical stance. It's that the highly sensitive nervous system can sense peaks and valleys more than someone who is not highly sensitive. So they might respond more to hunger cues and may feel more   Michelle (33:29) Mm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:39) panic or anxiety or stress in the state of hunger. So they may be more likely to be the person that reaches for something to re-stabilize glucose. But then you can see how depending on someone's metabolic health, that might not fit well into whatever their health goals are. So I think of my non- he's actually quite highly sensitive now, but my husband- I'm going grab water.   Michelle (33:43) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Got it.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:08) Sorry. My husband, who is a little bit less sensitive and has a more stable metabolic system, when he's hungry, it doesn't cause as much distress.   Michelle (34:08) Sure.   Got it.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:20) If that makes sense.   Michelle (34:21) a body awareness thing. because HSPs are probably much more aware of how their bodies feel because a, immediately feel it. And then that impacts their emotions or how they feel mentally. Cause a lot of emotions get processed and they're really felt in the body. think, a lot of times people don't realize that it's why somatic.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:39) Mm-hmm.   Michelle (34:43) work can be so beneficial. Have you looked into somatic work?   Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:48) I do offer some forms of somatic work. I am not a somatic-experiencing practitioner. That takes a full, it's almost like a whole separate degree. But I actually find what you're saying very important to highlight, too, because HSPs, while anyone listening might think, goodness, OK, I'm highly sensitive. Now what? Does this just mean that I'm in for it? Everything's going to be harder?   Michelle (34:57) wow.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:14) The good thing, the hopeful thing is that HSPs also respond more to positives. So they feel more positive sensation from things like a massage or acupuncture or homeopathy or different aromatherapies. They're really going to benefit from it. I think that's why   Michelle (35:20) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:39) My HSPs tend to stay in therapy longer. So HSPs are kind of a stronger ratio in therapy, not only because the world can feel more traumatizing at some points for HSPs, but because they just get so much out of it. I think it also leads to things like food can taste even better. Music can sound even more beautiful. Movies can be even more moving. So there's these...   Michelle (35:58) Mm-hmm.   There's benefits.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:09) Yeah, there's this, I wouldn't give it up. I wouldn't want to be less sensitive just because it would make me a little bit less likely to reach for a snack in the afternoon. So there's this yin and yang to it.   Michelle (36:14) brain.   Yes.   For sure. I actually like just from my own journey based on that, what I offer a lot of my patients and I always talk to them about it when I perceive that they get overwhelmed by stimulation. That was really how I saw it. I would say that it's not about changing that it's a gift actually, cause it could also teach you to be very aware of other people's feelings and   Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:40) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Right.   Michelle (36:50) And that can be a great thing for healers, to be honest, because you're a lot more likely to be able to understand the people that you're working with. It's not about changing. It's more about managing, kind of figuring out ways to stabilize so that it works for you.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:53) Mm-hmm.   Right.   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Right.   Absolutely. And I think that's the whole key of identifying whether or not you're one and why it's important. I've had clients who come in with a laundry list of diagnoses from other practitioners, usually because what's going on is trauma and it's being misdiagnosed as many other things, just my clinical opinion. But when I say maybe you're also highly sensitive, sometimes they just throw their arms up like another thing. And it's like, no, no.   Michelle (37:36) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (37:37) This is a key. This is a huge level of insight that can inform everything from your fertility journey for people listening, from trauma, from navigating. Anytime something stands in your way of getting where you want to be, if you know, well, I'm highly sensitive, so I will be more likely to succeed at this thing or accomplish this thing or feel better about this thing if I take my sensitivity into account.   Michelle (38:01) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:07) Perfect example, I had a very heavy day yesterday. had, I think, eight clients, a podcast, an interview, and a class. It was too much. It was a heavy, heavy day. I get home and my husband had managed to fix the voice-changing microphone toy that my kids have that had been broken that I wasn't rushing to fix. so I come in the house. They run to me. They're so excited to see me, so I'm excited to see them.   Michelle (38:17) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Ha ha ha!   Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:35) and then they start in on this microphone. The last thing I wanted was to hear that microphone. But I know I didn't want to ruin their fun. So I know about me that I am going to be sensitive to sound when I'm overstimulated. So I went into my bag. I got my loop earbuds. If no one's ever heard of them, they're great for dampening noise around you, but you can still hear people. Popped my earbuds in. I didn't feel like I had to mask the issue of being sensitive to the noise.   Michelle (38:56) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:03) My family knows this about me. It wasn't anything against my kids. It was just, I'm going to pop these in so you can still have fun, but I can feel peaceful. And that's, think, a compassionate way to care for yourself is when you know these things about yourself, you can do things to help you still integrate and feel happy and peaceful in your life, but not have to push away what really is true.   Michelle (39:17) Mm-hmm.   I love that. actually really love that. It actually, the idea of highly sensitive, I don't mind it. Although I do think that there's definitely a lot of labels. I don't see this as one because the reason why I'm saying this, it reminds me of human design where you find out your strengths and sensitivities.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:42) Yes.   Michelle (39:47) and I think that once you know those, so it's not like a disorder, you know, cause we, think we hear all these different labels. think of it as like all these disorders. It's not no. And so that's the thing with this. I feel like it brings a lot of clarity. I, as a sensitive person   Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:54) Mm-hmm. It's not even a diagnosis.   Michelle (40:05) it really makes me understand myself more and manage it more. Just like you said, and I think that that is the key rather than getting frustrated with my husband who likes to really over explain. And sometimes I'm like, okay, my brain is like just on fire right now. And I have to explain that to, like, I know to explain that to him, like, it's not you, it's just me. He like right now I'm overloaded with information. I need a little quiet.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (40:10) Mm hmm.   Mm-hmm.   my gosh.   Yes.   Right.   Mm-hmm.   Michelle (40:33) So I think that when you do that, you'll also come at explaining things in a way that's more compassionate and easier to communicate rather than getting frustrated because you'll understand yourself better. And you understand sort of the situation that somebody else might not have that level of sensitivity and you do so they may not realize it. And I just feel like it really puts so much clarity to the situation.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (40:41) Right.   Right.   Right.   absolutely. if you happen to have kids or if you're on this fertility journey and in the future you're blessed with kids, the likelihood of them maybe being sensitive is quite high. And so you will be able to model for them. I joke one day, my daughter was probably three or four at the time, and she kept asking me for things in the bathroom. like, what is she doing? I walked in and she was laying in the tub with a book and a cup.   Michelle (41:17) Yes.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (41:30) and a towel over her face. And I'm like, what are you doing? She goes, I'm being mommy. I know, but it made me really proud too, because I'm like, OK, great. So this has been modeled for her. And you know, one thing we didn't even mention that we probably should have mentioned at the very beginning, high sensitivity is not abnormal. It's an adaptive trait. And it is a third. Up to a third of the human population is highly sensitive.   Michelle (41:35) That's really cute.   Yeah.   you   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (41:59) And there are ranges. So you have high sensitivity, medium sensitivity, and there are actually people who are low sensitive as well. Like their nervous system takes a lot of stimulation to be activated. And you might notice if you start learning this about yourself, you'll be able to start reflecting on people in your life and how you respond to them. And there might be people you can get to depth with a little bit more easily. Those might be your other co-HSPs.   Michelle (42:12) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (42:29) And this is not just humans. The research shows this is in hundreds of animal species, even bugs. So it's everywhere. It's part of nature. It's part of nature, essentially.   Michelle (42:38) Wow, that's fascinating. That's so interesting. It's wild. You know, and I think to myself, like one of the things that I noticed, and it's so interesting that you said this, because I noticed that my patients, One of the things that I really observe is how they respond to treatments. Not everybody responds as quick.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (42:52) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Michelle (42:58) Some people take a little longer. so I can come up with like my first protocol, but then I realized I need to shift it a little bit, depending on how they do, or sometimes I'll even use baby needles on people who are very, very sensitive. Cause I don't want to overdo it with their nervous system. They don't need the strong needles. They don't need the strong stimulation cause they feel it already. And the people that have that body awareness   Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:04) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Mmm.   Right.   Right.   Michelle (43:22) is that when they have that body awareness, I feel like they respond to treatment a lot faster.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:28) Mm hmm. Yep. You're right. Just like we were saying that you'll get more good out of the good.   Michelle (43:31) Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So interesting. I can talk to you for hours. I really enjoy our conversations. It's a lot of fun. I'll come back and then I'll have you back because I'm sure we can come up with like all kinds of things to talk about.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:37) I know I have to have you back now.   Well, and you know the funny thing, so I'll tell your listeners my podcast is The Sensitivity Doctor, and I have folks on all the time to talk about different topics around sensitivity. Do you know I have not had an episode literally just talking about what it means to be a highly sensitive person? I would love to have you on to have a chat about what it means to another highly sensitive person, and we can just unpack it. Because we talk about it extraneously around it, but I'm like,   Michelle (44:04) really?   Let's do it. Let's do it.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (44:16) Yeah, we should just unpack what that means. So I would love to have you back.   Michelle (44:20) That would be great. I really enjoy talking to you. can just like totally pick your brain. You're so interesting to talk to. I got really, and I love your energy and you're also the way you approach it in such an empowering way. I love that. Like I think it's just amazing. yeah, yeah, this is fun. I'm really excited. I actually met you.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (44:26) thank you. You too.   Mm-hmm. Thank you.   Yeah, it was a good it was a good meeting   Michelle (44:41) it was definitely a great meeting. So I would love for you to share for people listening and if they want to learn more, if they want to read your books, how they can reach you and how they can work with you.   Dr. Amelia Kelley (44:47) Mm-hmm.   Sure, so as I was mentioning, I do have my podcast that comes out every Thursday. But if you want to learn basically anything that I have to offer, it's on my website at AmeliaKelly.com, and that's Kelly with an EY. And I have links to my Psychology Today blog. It's called In Your Corner. I've got meditations on Insight Timer on there. There's a couple different quizzes, like if you want to figure out if you're in a...   trauma bond, if you want to learn if you're a highly sensitive person, I have an assessment on there. I also offer what I think to be the most important tools from some of my books that I want to make available to everyone for free, like the safety plan of how to get out of domestic violence situations, suicide safety plan, gas lighting checklist, like some of the things that I feel like everyone really should just have. You don't need to go buy the book.   Those are available too. So you can also find links for all my books and I also have a group that I meet every Tomorrow actually it's meeting. It's every other Thursday It's called powered by ADHD and it's for women with ADHD and sometimes we have guest speakers on which we're gonna have tomorrow night so I'm excited about that and I love that because it's a resource that women anywhere in the world can reach out You don't have to be in the state of North Carolina where I'm licensed. So   virtually anyone who is a woman or identifies as a woman can join that.   of course. Thanks for having me. Yeah, you'll come back. Awesome.  

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Samantha Bonizzi shares her deeply personal journey through pregnancy loss, the challenges of trying to conceive, and the emotional rollercoaster of navigating IVF. She emphasizes the importance of community, support, and mental health resources during such a difficult time. Samantha also discusses her motivation for co-authoring a book that shares stories of fertility loss and hope, aiming to help others feel less alone in their experiences. Samantha highlights the significance of self-care, therapy, and trusting one's intuition throughout the journey to motherhood.     About Samantha:   Samantha is a writer with a background in public relations and communications. She spent her early career working in PR for lifestyle brands and has since transitioned to a corporate internal communications role at a tech company.    She grew up in New Jersey, where she's lived most of her life (besides a brief stint in New York City), and now resides just outside Montclair with her husband and mini bernedoodle. She loves the area and has written several stories about things to do and places to go for a local lifestyle website, The Montclair Girl. She also loves reading, working out and doing yoga, hiking and being outdoors, and traveling.    Samantha has always had a passion for wellness and women's health, which has taken center stage in her life since experiencing pregnancy loss and fertility challenges. Now, she wants to pay what she's learned forward and is on a mission to help women who find themselves on similar paths.   IG: @sam.bonizzi  IG: @thelosseswekeep  Website: https://samantha-bonizzi-bookshop.square.site       For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Be sure to check out our Fertility Empowerment Holiday Bundle here https://www.michelleoravitz.com/fertilityempowermentbundle before it's gone!    Check out Michelle's Latest Book: The Way of Fertility! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Samantha.   Samantha Bonizzi (00:02) Thank you so much for having me. Excited to chat with you today.   Michelle (00:05) Me too. So excited to chat with you and I've worked with you before and I'm excited to have you on and super excited that you co-authored this book. And I would love for the listeners to hear your journey and really what inspired you to share your story with others.   Samantha Bonizzi (00:26) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So just to take a bunch of steps back and kind of share what led me to this point, I guess to start, know, we, my husband and I wanted to start a family. And so like most of our generation, you know, I was on birth control for 12 years and in talking to my doctor about, you know, starting to try.   It was as simple as, know, get off birth control, start trying and see what happens. It should happen pretty quickly if you're lucky. So that's exactly what we did. Sure enough, we were pregnant within a few months of trying, which we were, you know, very excited about, of course, and, you know, just thought we were lucky in that it happened to us so quickly. We   You know, initially, I've kept the news to ourselves for the first eight or nine weeks. And at that point, things had been going well when we went in for our first initial appointments. You know, we saw the heartbeat. The doctor said everything was looking good. The first big milestone, of course, is that 12, 13 week appointment when you go in for the genetic testing. And, you know,   Like I said, up until this point, we at first were being pretty discreet with the news, but we did start to share with close family and friends. We weren't shouting it from the rooftops yet, but we definitely, you know, we were excited. And so we started to tell some of our immediate circle. and so we went in for that appointment, pretty naive. think, we, I had, of course, as a woman, you're familiar with the fact that miscarriages can happen.   My mom had even had two miscarriages during her, after she had me before my brother. But it wasn't something that we really talked about. And it wasn't anything even in my immediate circle in terms of friends or close family members, anything that they had gone through. So I was pretty naive going in. I think we went into that appointment.   excited to just be in an ultrasound and see the baby. It had been five weeks, I think, since I had been in for an appointment. So we were just, you know, excited to see the baby. And even when the nurse was doing the initial ultrasound, the baby came up on the screen. We were like, we didn't notice anything was wrong. We were just like very excited. And then all of sudden we did notice that the technician went quiet. You know,   Michelle (03:07) Mm.   Samantha Bonizzi (03:16) she was kind of dynamic with us in the beginning when we first came in and then all of a sudden her her demeanor changed right away. And then at that point she left to go get the doctor. The doctor came in and simply told us that we didn't have a viable pregnancy. And it was it wasn't our doctor because it was like this genetic doctor that was doing this particular scan for us. So luckily our doctor was in   Michelle (03:42) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (03:45) the same building. So we're able to be like ushered into see the doctor right away and kind of walk through what our next steps would be. But we were just very shocked. We were not expecting that to happen, especially, you know, getting up until that 13 week mark is where we were at. So we kind of felt like and I think also I didn't understand the concept of a missed miscarriage, which is what happened to us.   Michelle (03:51) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (04:14) When I thought of a miscarriage before, assumed it was something that happened where you started to bleed and it happened at home and you know clearly like you are having a miscarriage. So when I went in there and they told me we didn't have a viable pregnancy, I didn't know what that meant, how that happened, why that happened. So it was all very shocking, I would say. So it was at that point, we talked to our doctor, he recommended having a DNC.   Michelle (04:23) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (04:42) which is what we did a few days later and you know, you go into the hospital and that was my first time in that hospital where I thought we would be delivering our baby and then you have to go in there and remove the baby. so that was really, I guess, a surreal moment. and you know, to be frank, like the DNC procedure is pretty quick and painless and you wake up and you're just, the baby's gone. It's not.   Michelle (04:53) Wow, yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (05:10) inside of you anymore. And you're just kind of left unsure of what to do next. They don't really provide you with any resources. They just send you on your way. And in talking with my doctor, he was like, you know, we'll follow up with the results. Like that's part of the reason we did the DNC so that they could test the tissue to kind of confirm because they had he had projected it was likely a chromosome issue. But they wanted to make sure of that. So   said they would follow up in a few weeks. And in terms of like getting pregnant again, it was really like, you could start trying as soon as you get your next period. It's up to you in terms of when you're emotionally ready. Like, well, how am going to know if I'm emotionally ready? Like, this is such a shock to the system. So, you know, I think at that point I was shook for sure. And like I said, I didn't have anybody in my   Michelle (05:54) Yeah. Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (06:06) immediate circle who had been through anything like that. So I kind of didn't know where to turn. At the same time, I didn't really go out and seek a lot of resources because I felt like, you know, the way the doctor described it, it was something that could happen to anybody. It was a spontaneous thing. You know, it's not an indication of there being a problem with you being able to hold on to a pregnancy. So just try again.   And so I think I was just determined, you know, I'm a very, I have a very, I think, know, type a personality where I'm like, okay, let's just like get it done. Let's keep trying. We can do this. And so I was sad, of course, but I was also at the same time, like so determined to just make it work the next time. And so we did really jump into trying again right away. And I think we were pregnant three months later.   Michelle (06:44) Hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (07:05) and you know, I think when you deal with a pregnancy after loss, you're robbed of a lot of things. there's no longer like an immediate joy of a positive pregnancy test because it's like quickly followed with fear and anxiety. It's the same thing can happen to you, you know, going, going into an ultrasound is scary because especially if that's where you found out about your miscarriage, there's a sphere that you're going to receive the same news.   Michelle (07:29) Bye.   Samantha Bonizzi (07:34) And, you know, all those things were definitely building up in my head when we found out we were pregnant. At the same time, I just felt like surely it wouldn't happen to us again. You know, I was sure that we had paid our dues and like this was something that just randomly happened to us the first time and that we would be okay. And even as the doctor, you know, he had flagged   a few concerns, things like the fetal heart rate and the size of the sac and those types of things. And he of just had us continue to come back every two weeks to kind of check on those markers. But I still was like, no, this is gonna work. And so when he told us eight weeks that it would again wasn't a viable pregnancy, I think I was even almost more shocked.   Michelle (08:13) you   Well.   Samantha Bonizzi (08:28) than the first time and you would think that, okay, you've been through this, you know how to deal. It wasn't like that because after the second one, it was almost worse because the realization set in that this wasn't just a spontaneous thing that happened to us. Like to have these miscarriages back to back, I felt like, okay, something must be wrong. Either I've done something to deserve this and I'm being punished or something is wrong with us where this isn't working.   Michelle (08:32) Right.   Samantha Bonizzi (08:55) I think especially being in that short time window too. And when you see everyone around you, like I had all my friends were having babies at that time and it worked for them. Why isn't it working for us? So it was again a shock. I think at that point I told myself we need to slow down. We need to kind of understand if   there is an underlying issue we need to kind of reassess before we just jump into trying again. And I don't know if that's, I don't know exactly what led from the first to the second. And if we did try too soon, I'll never know how those answers, but I just felt like we had to slow down and just reassess what was happening. So at that point, I, you know, I started to go to a fertility clinic, started to have all the testing.   that they recommend for recurring pregnancy loss. And that took a few months. And through all of that, they said everything seems to be fine. It's likely due to poor egg quality or bad luck that this happened, which is on one hand reassuring because when there's not a glaring issue, you at least know, okay, well, this is, you know, there's not something, you know, glaring that's   preventing this from happening. But on the other hand, it's like, if it's bad luck, then why is this happening? And that's actually the title of my chapter is, if nothing is wrong, then how do we fix it? Which is how I felt. You're telling me nothing's wrong, well then what is our path forward? And really it was left unclear. It was, you could do IVF and potentially reduce your risk of miscarriage because you could do things like,   Michelle (10:30) Right. Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (10:46) you know, the genetic testing and everything where you have more of a chance of having a healthy embryo. But that's not a guarantee. Or if you feel more comfortable trying it naturally, you can do that. And so there was this sort of leaning recommendation towards IVF. But then you're like, well, this is a fertility clinic. Do they just want me to do the IVF? Is this really what's best for us? So   Michelle (10:53) Right.   Right.   Samantha Bonizzi (11:11) In hearing all that, you you kind of go through, at least for me, I went through sort of a spiral of guilt around, again, why was this happening? If there isn't a, if there isn't a medical reason, what is the reason, you know, kind of searching for answers in all of it? So you, you know, I definitely went through spirals of why me. And I think what helped at that point was just like hearing other people's stories.   And it really took a lot of effort for me to find those people to connect with on the topic who had been through it. Like I said, I didn't have anybody I knew personally who had been through it, at least on a close knit level. So it was like taking to social media and being connected through friends to other women who had been through something similar and who came out on the other side.   Michelle (11:50) Hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (12:09) And I think that was what was most helpful. I did support groups as well. And I think that was also helpful in just having those regular touch points with people who are going through the same thing that you're going through and just got it. So I think between those two things, that, that really helps with those negative spirals of emotion that I was feeling. you know, in considering IVF, which was a big decision,   Michelle (12:09) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (12:38) It was talking to people who had done IVF and really understanding the process from them that sort of gave me the push to give it a shot. think ultimately it came down to just what I thought best in my gut for us, like in talking to my husband about it. And we felt like it was the right call for us. But again, it was a very hard decision.   Michelle (12:55) Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (13:09) I think, yeah, it was tough, but we ultimately decided to go through with the IVF. And I'm very grateful that we did because we were lucky enough where we had a successful retrieval and a successful transfer. And I'm currently nine months pregnant. So that's kind of where I'm at in a nutshell. And what led me to the book,   Michelle (13:30) Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (13:37) I had been connected, the lead author, her name is Jamie Christ. She was somebody I was connected to through my cousin who actually lives in Miami. And when I was in Miami visiting her, my cousin, that's when I wanted to see you and I was going through the fertility treatment. But my cousin connected me with Jamie as one of those women who had been through something similar to what I was going through to kind of talk through different.   Michelle (13:47) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (14:04) aspects of the journey and resources and things of that nature. And so we kind of just kept in touch and then she was looking for authors to join her on this anthology project that she was working on. And I decided at the time I hadn't found out I was pregnant. I didn't even find out I was pregnant yet. I was just about to transfer when I decided to do it. But it was something, you know, during my journey   Michelle (14:28) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (14:34) I had been journaling a lot and kind of writing about my experience and I always thought, you know, it would be great to share this one day. And so this felt like the right opportunity to do that and to start talking about it and sharing my story. So I joined Jamie and eight other authors, including myself on this book called The Losses We Keep, Our Journey of Fertility, Loss and Neverending Hope.   And it's just a compilation of our stories. So we each have a chapter and we share, you know, what we went through and every story is unique and different. So there's really something for everybody who's either going through, going through it or know somebody who's going through it. So it's really beautiful how it all came together and yeah, kind of what led me there.   Michelle (15:26) I that's so beautiful that first of all, I think there's something therapeutic about sharing your story and getting your story out there. Plus, that is going to help others And it's kind of interesting when you were talking about your experience with a doctor and it was kind of like you went and then they're like, okay, you know, well, it's good luck next time. And then you're off.   with no guidance whatsoever. I hear that story time and time again. I hear it so much that I'm don't they create some kind of like the mental health aspect? Why don't they create some kind of support for people? Because I feel like that's part of the whole process. I feel like it should be part of it. When you're going through a loss like that, and it's often your first loss and   you don't know who to talk to and you might not have a community. Some people don't have anybody like at all. So I just don't understand why I feel like it should be protocol for people going through it. And so that's why I love the fact that you actually wrote the story because I feel like when people hear other people's stories, I think the biggest thing and tell me if this is accurate, it's just knowing that you're not alone, that you're not like alone in this experience.   Samantha Bonizzi (16:24) Yep.   Yeah.   It says that's exactly right. And that was a big part of my why too. was partly being therapeutic and kind of being able to get all of this out there and get it on the page and share it. But it was also being able to help other women feel less alone because that was something I so needed when I was going through it was to have that sense of community or just.   hearing people who had been through the journey and who ended up on the other side. And that's a lot of what Jamie talks about too and why she started this project was because when she was going through it, like, yes, there were resources that you can find in books and things, but at times could feel sort of negative. And she just needed the optimism. And this is really, you know, it's meant to be a beacon of hope for women who are going through it. Yeah.   Michelle (17:25) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Yeah, I love that. Yeah. It's just, it's something that is so needed. because I think when you're going through that, you really don't have any guarantee. you just don't know how tomorrow is going to be and like how it's going to work out. And it's always kind of like having faith. Okay, well, you know, my past has been disappointment and loss and hurt and pain. And so is my future going to look like that too?   Samantha Bonizzi (17:46) Yeah.   Michelle (17:58) And then what I also thought was really interesting, and I think it's great that you bring up is that when you talked about IVF and you considered it and all the different thoughts that you have, all these things that you think in the back of your head, like, well, are they trying to sell this on me? These are those little thoughts that we all have, but we don't always speak or even acknowledge. It's kind of like sitting there behind everything.   Samantha Bonizzi (18:22) Yeah.   Michelle (18:24) So when you're thinking that what I found really amazing with how you described it is that you assessed, kind of sat with it and you also address the fact that you're like, wait, rather than saying, okay, this is better luck next time, let me try again, again, because there's nothing wrong and kind of going with what you were being told, you let your inner guidance, your inner wisdom, I call it, it's almost like our inner compass leads you to   uncovering more and you're like, wait, I'm not going to put myself through this again, before I get more information. And then also when you got information, you assessed everything and you listened to your gut. always talk to people about that because even I, as a practitioner, cannot bypass that. that's your, you have the intelligence inside your body, inside your mind that guides you to what is right for you.   Samantha Bonizzi (19:22) Yeah, I mean, that was a big, big part of it because it was such a, it was such a heavy decision and you could weigh out the pros and cons all day long. But at the end of the day, it's just what you feel in your gut is right. And I think for us, and I say us, cause it really was a joint decision between my husband and I, even though it was my body, we just felt like we needed to try something different. You know, what we had done historically wasn't working and you know, we trusted   Michelle (19:46) Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (19:51) the doctor that we were working with and we trusted the clinic and I had done a lot of the leg work to get us to that point. I switched fertility clinics, I switched doctors even at that fertility clinic once I was there. So I felt like I had done so much to get us to that point and it felt like the right next step. mean, there was certainly doubt in all of that because I didn't know, I didn't know what was going to happen and the thought of IVF is scary. When you haven't been through it, you don't know.   Michelle (20:07) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (20:20) And I had never dealt with anything medically before either. So even just like being in and out of the doctor and all of that and dealing with doctors, I wasn't used to that. So that was something I really had to orient myself around and learn how to talk to doctors and advocate for ourselves. know, like with all the testing and everything, there were moments where I really did have to advocate and push for more testing and push for them to test my husband's sperm because there was...   Michelle (20:37) Right. Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (20:48) point one which they didn't want to and you know that would feel good to have it be put on the women. So there was a lot of moments where you kind of have to, I don't know, you kind of learn and grow from it I think and that's at least what I tried to take from it but it was all definitely a challenge but yes I agree that just listening to your intuition at the end of the day is what's gonna push you forward.   Michelle (20:51) Yep.   Totally.   Yeah, no doubt. And I know that the community was like a big thing for you too, is just connecting with other people helped you get strength, but also clarity, I imagine.   Samantha Bonizzi (21:29) Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think, like I said, it was, was in talking to other women who had been through it. And I think, you know, I, when you envision how you start a family, you never envision there to be challenges like this, miscarriages, fertility treatment, all of that. And so, because it was just such a new concept that you kind of have to orient yourself around, it's helpful to hear from other people who had   been through it and can kind of help shed light on the experience and make you feel like, okay, this is actually a moment of strength and not a weakness. It's not a moment of weakness that we are now having to resort to fertility treatment and we can't get pregnant the natural way, which I hate that concept of natural versus medicated. Yeah, it's all natural, right? And that was what   Michelle (22:24) it's all natural. It's a baby. Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (22:29) I told myself in the end, I don't care the path that we get there anymore, I just want the baby in our arms. And so whatever it takes to get there, I will do it. And that helped me, I think come to terms with IVF as well, is that it's the destination that matters, not the journey.   Michelle (22:36) Yeah.   I love that. actually really love that you're saying that because it's true. It's almost like that. As soon as you surrender the how it seems to make things a lot easier, then you're just like, okay, and then because you you're moving with the flow of the how, rather than resisting it at every point, because that resistance is only going to cause more stress.   Samantha Bonizzi (22:51) No.   Yes.   It does.   Yes, exactly. And I think that was a big part of it. When I was going through the testing and everything, it was like, I was trying to gain so much control over every little aspect. I mean, and not even just with doctors, but in, you know, the lifestyle changes that I was making and putting effort into my diet and the supplements and the environment, all those things that you hear about that are supposed to help the fertility and   I think there's definitely some merit to it, but at the same time, it gets exhausting. Just having to, you want to think that you have, yeah, and you want to think you have some semblance of control over the situation, in which for me, it was very much a coping mechanism, because I felt such at a loss with everything, that I was like, okay, if I do these things and I control these things, at least I can, you know, feel like I'm doing something and I'm making, and I'm getting momentum towards, you know, the end goal here.   Michelle (23:46) It's a lot. It's a lot of pressure.   Yeah.   Samantha Bonizzi (24:08) But I think I became very burnt out by it all. so I think the other appealing thing with IVF was like, can kind of surrender to the process and trust the doctors and just choose this as my path forward. And there was some comfort in that.   Michelle (24:26) Yeah, because it's almost like a plan is in place and you're just like following this plan and then you have a direction to go in.   Samantha Bonizzi (24:32) Yeah, yeah, exactly.   Michelle (24:35) And what are other coping skills that you found doing this? Because I know obviously community is tremendous. I know that that is really because we really need people. We're such social beings. We need people. We need to hear that we're not alone. We're not the only ones thinking certain thoughts or feeling certain feelings. So having that community it eases the load, that kind of personal load.   But what are other things that you've done that you feel have helped you in the process just for people listening?   Samantha Bonizzi (25:06) I think therapy was a big one and finding the right therapist who, for me at least, who understood what I was going through and kind of had a more specialized focus in everything maternal health. I had dabbled in therapy before and I was seeing a therapist when I first got pregnant, but I decided to switch after the miscarriage and find somebody who   Michelle (25:21) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (25:36) like I said, was specialized. And, you know, I felt like could get me through the specific situation that I was going through. And I think that was really important for my healing journey, was having that regular touch point of therapy, of talk therapy, and just having an outlet to get everything out and work through whatever it was that I needed to work through.   you know, it's something where you have your friends and family and your partner, but you at the same time might feel like a, at least for me, I felt like a burden a lot of the time, like not really wanting to put that on everyone else around me. So having that like consistent therapy appointment was just always a good outlet for me to kind of sort through the ins and outs of what I was going through. So I think therapy was a big one. And then just like,   generally self-care, whatever was going to get me through, whether it was like making that massage appointment or whether it was related to fertility or not. think just having, getting out for the walk with the good podcast and like prioritizing that, like there was no limits to my self-care time, I think during that window.   Michelle (26:42) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (27:00) you know, whatever I could do to make myself feel better in the short term or the long term was what I was doing.   Michelle (27:06) That's so important because it's kind of like a self-soothing. I think that that is a really good skill to have, to find ways to make yourself feel better. Sometimes that gets neglected. It's not something that we're actually raised to think about. Oftentimes it's actually quite the opposite. We feel guilty about it. We're like, you know, what are you doing sitting around? You're not doing anything. So you feel almost guilty about it. And it's a conditioning because it's really something that is so important really for   Samantha Bonizzi (27:10) Yeah.   Michelle (27:35) our bodies, for our nervous systems. I often talk about nervous system because it's so important for fertility health, but it's also important for your emotional state as well. And I also love that you brought up therapy, but specifically with somebody who is specialized in your specific needs, which there are out there just for people listening.   And you can find people who are very specifically specialized in this field and understand the process. They understand the grieving process and how, you know, there's patterns to every type of emotion. So I think it's really important. Yeah, for sure. And I think also you'll talk to somebody who understands you specifically and what you're going through.   Samantha Bonizzi (28:12) Yep. Yeah. So important. Yeah.   Yes, yes. And it's that and even now it's all connected. Like she, my therapist understands my journey and what got me to this pregnancy and now helping me through this pregnancy and all the other anxieties and fears that I now feel being pregnant after pregnancy loss. There's a lot of nuance to that. having her as part of...   Michelle (28:42) Mm-hmm.   Samantha Bonizzi (28:49) the lead up and into kind where I am now has been really helpful. And even as I enter into postpartum, you know, I think everything around motherhood, it's all there's, and I don't, I'm almost, I'm about to embark on motherhood. So there's a lot to learn, but there's, you know, there's a lot of fear and anxiety. The worrying never stops. So I'm so grateful that I found the right person.   Michelle (29:03) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, that's true. mean, your emotions and everything that you're going through, doesn't just stop when you get to the place that you're looking to get to, you know? So there's always something and it is really important to address because it will come up sometimes and it legitimately is PTSD. mean, so you're going through something and then you were saying about going back to the doctor's office. Yes, because it's like the sensations, the lights, the visuals, all of the things.   Samantha Bonizzi (29:23) Yeah.   Michelle (29:41) those are all reminding us of the last time we were there and all the things that we went through in that time. So it's really important to at least even acknowledge that and know that those things can come up and that they're normal. Like it happens really, can't even think of one patient that has not gone through that, that I've worked with.   Samantha Bonizzi (29:42) Yeah.   Yeah, and that's been the challenge is sort of having to like relive your past traumas. You know, when it comes to pregnancy after loss, you have to do the things that are hard that remind you of the bad times. You know, like you said, going into those ultrasound appointments and dealing with being in the same room you were in when you found out about your pregnancy loss and how to get through that. And   therapy did really help me with that, kind of being able to ground yourself in reality and like, what do I know is true right now? And I think the fact of keeping, you know, reminding myself that this is a different pregnancy with a different outcome with a different story was really important and a concept I kind of picked up from therapy and also support groups and things like that. So   There are all these coping mechanisms at the end of the day. It's still hard, you kind of, there's no way to go but through yeah, it's so true. And so, you know, in order to get there, I had to get pregnant again, had to go through the first trimester, had to get through the ultrasounds in order to get to where I am now. So.   Michelle (31:01) Yeah.   I love that thing. It's true.   Mm-hmm   Samantha, you are so articulate. You're really good with your words. You're really good at describing your experience I could feel the emotion in your voice, even when you're explaining it, like really, like you really walk us through that exact experience very well. Like you could really, really feel it. So first of all, I think it's just, takes a lot of courage to express things or to speak about things that are so personal.   Samantha Bonizzi (31:21) Thank you.   Thank you.   Michelle (31:45) And I know that you're doing this really for the benefit of people listening. So for that, I really want to commend you. think it's just beautiful. And that's kind of like the beauty of life is when you're able to take something that is so hard and so personal and know that you kind of like, it's like alchemy, know, something that can be so painful could serve a purpose for somebody else hearing it.   And then just to also share in that, I guess, that human So thank you so much for sharing that. And for people who want to read this book, how can they find it? How can they find you?   Samantha Bonizzi (32:21) Yeah, absolutely. So we are available. The book is available on Amazon or really wherever you purchase your books. And we've been out for about two weeks. So it's fairly new out in the market, but we're excited about it and hope you'll, whether you're someone going through it or you know somebody going through it. Like I said, there's a story in there for everybody. So we hope it touches you in some way.   I'm the best place to find me is Instagram. So I'm at Sam dot Benizzi. And yeah, I'm public on there, but send me a DM. I'd love to connect.   Michelle (33:03) Awesome. I'll have all the links in the podcast episode notes. So if anybody wants to go in there, you'll find the website and the Instagram and Samantha, you're just such a doll. Like I always liked you from the beginning when he first came in. You just have such a good energy about you. And I just, I really, yeah, I loved, I love having you on here and having this conversation with you. And then just the fact that you co-authored a book is just amazing.   Samantha Bonizzi (33:14) Yeah.   Thank you. Likewise.   Thank you so much for having me and giving me a platform to continue to share. it's been great to connect with you. Like I said, was one time, but you really left a mark. So I'm glad we can kind of stay in contact about it as well.   Michelle (33:47) Awesome. Well, thank you so much.   Samantha Bonizzi (33:49) Thank you.

In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I sit down with Dr. Marc Sklar to delve into evolving perspectives on fertility, especially for women over 40. We discuss the need to shift our focus from quantity to quality in fertility treatments, and the empowering impact this has on women navigating their fertility journeys. We cover the realities of IVF, the importance of patience, self-advocacy, and creating space for personal growth and healing. Marc and I also explore complex factors such as genetics, autoimmune issues, and male-related factors in recurrent pregnancy loss. This conversation is full of valuable insights for anyone on their fertility journey, promoting a holistic approach to healing and growth.   Takeaways   A shift in mindset is crucial for couples seeking fertility care after 40. Quality of eggs and embryos becomes more important than quantity as women age. Understanding hormones is important, but shouldn't be the sole focus. Regular ovulation is a key indicator of fertility, regardless of age. Real-life success stories provide hope and perspective for those trying to conceive. Patients should feel empowered to advocate for themselves in medical settings. IVF is not a guaranteed solution and should not be the first option considered. Donor eggs can be a valuable option, but should not be the first recommendation based solely on age. The energetics of fertility are crucial for healing. Recurrent pregnancy loss can stem from various factors, including genetics and autoimmune issues. Male factors contribute to 50% of miscarriages, often overlooked. The importance of the uterine environment in fertility cannot be ignored. Quick fixes are a societal conditioning that impacts health decisions. Understanding the microbiome can enhance fertility treatments. Emotional states can significantly affect physical health and fertility.   Be sure to check out our Fertility Empowerment Holiday Bundle here https://www.michelleoravitz.com/fertilityempowermentbundle before it's gone!   Guest Bio:   Dr. Marc Sklar — a.k.a The Fertility Expert — is a natural fertility specialist helping couples get pregnant for 21 years. He's mission is to help you feel HOPEFUL and CONFIDENT about your fertility journey again.    In addition to his Doctor of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine, Dr. Sklar trained at the Harvard Medical School, Mind/Body Medical Institute. He is the creator of Fertility TV, MarcSklar.com and ReproductiveWellness.com, and a Fellow of the American Board of Oriental Reproductive Medicine and Medical Advisor for Symphony Natural Health.   As well as his online program, he also supports his community via his highly popular YouTube channel: FertilityTV where he shares information packed videos to educate his followers on all things fertility.    The Fertility Expert lives in San Diego, with his wife and two sons, where he has his clinic Reproductive Wellness. He also works with couples all over the world through his fertility online coaching - the Hope Fertility Program.   FERTILITY TV WEEKLY EPISODE - http://bit.ly/thefertilityexpert FACEBOOK - https://www.facebook.com/thefertilityexpert INSTAGRAM - https://www.instagram.com/the_fertility_expert/     For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Be sure to check out our Fertility Empowerment Holiday Bundle here https://www.michelleoravitz.com/fertilityempowermentbundle before it's gone!   Click here to get free access to the first chapter in The Way of Fertility Book! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome back to the podcast, Dr. Scalari.   Marc Sklar (00:03) Welcome, well, thank you for having me. It's automatic. But no, it's awesome to reconnect. It's been a while and I'm excited to have a conversation that we both are passionate about, which is everything fertility.   Michelle (00:07) I know it's automatic. Yes.   For sure. We're like, you could say we're a little obsessed, right? With fertility. It's like, live it, we breathe it, So awesome. actually today we're going to talk about a couple of different topics, but I wanted to talk to you about pregnancy after 40. Cause I know that a lot of what we hear out there, even about,   Marc Sklar (00:25) 100%. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.   Michelle (00:46) how even after 35, it's considered a geriatric pregnancy, which I don't know about you. just don't love that term at all. It's icky. yeah, because I'm sure you see most people like closer to the age of 40 and doing really well. So I'd love for you to talk about it, your experience with that, and also some really cool examples of how it can work despite all of the naysayers.   Marc Sklar (00:55) Yeah, not a fan of it.   Mm-hmm   Yeah, so I think, I so many things I want to talk about when you say this that I need to prioritize it in a good way. here's a couple of things that I think are really important. One is, I think our perspective about fertility, and when I say our, not ours as practitioners and doctors and providers, but more like ours as in like,   the couple who is seeking care during this time and wanting to get pregnant in their 40s, I think a mind shift has to happen. And I think that they need to think about their fertility in a slightly different way. If we are thinking about our fertility and reading everything that is really focused on   couples that are 30 or 35 or whatever age in their 30s, then we're going to be skewed differently about our own fertility and our approach needs to be different. And so I say that in the sense that, you know, we have to have a different reality of what is okay and what we're trying to achieve. A woman who's in her 30s is trying to get as many eggs as possible.   Michelle (02:43) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (02:43) So they have as many options when they have their embryos created and they are, you know, it's usually more about in general and this is a making a generalization, but it's more about quantity versus quality. We're like, let's have as many as we have so that we can choose the best quality of those and then we can move forward, you know, with our pregnancy. And...   the approach may or may not be in those situations about egg quality, because there might be other variables that are impacting their ability to conceive. Whereas I think when we are 40 and older, my approach really shifts. I don't care about quantity. I'm really, really focused on quality. And I think that mindset has to be different as a couple.   because then we were not as disappointed like, I didn't get that many follicles and they didn't retrieve as many eggs as I would have hoped. But because that's all we hear about. We hear about, look, we need all these eggs, we need all these embryos. But the reality is, is when we get older, I don't need 20 eggs or 20 embryos, I need a couple good ones. That's really what I'm looking for is a couple good embryos.   to work with and to transfer. So I think really a mind shift needs to happen and our perspective on fertility needs to change. And so for reading and understanding things as if we were 30 versus 40 or older, then we're gonna have, I believe, skewed perspective on our fertility journey. So that to me is number one. Number two is we do all get caught up in our hormones and some of that is appropriate and some of that is not appropriate.   Is it appropriate to understand where our hormones are at when we're at any age? 100%. Is it important to understand what our estrogen is doing and what our progesterone and FSH are doing? Absolutely. Is it important to know what our AMH is? Yes. Should we get caught up in AMH and make our whole focus about AMH? No.   The research doesn't promote, doesn't support these variables. Even FSH, AMH are not good indicators for a couple's ability to conceive and have a healthy pregnancy. Are they important for us to just have a baseline and understand? Yes. Will they potentially or can they potentially influence your IVF protocol? Yes.   But that doesn't mean we as couples need to get wrapped up in those numbers and make our fertility all about that because it shouldn't be. My rule of thumb is are you having a regular cycle? Check. Are you ovulating regularly? Check. Is your bleed healthy? Check. You can conceive.   Michelle (05:40) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (06:00) Do we have to look at these other variables? Do we need to check your thyroid? Do we need to work on your adrenal glands and stress? Do we need to make sure your gut is healthy? Do we need to make sure all the systems are functioning properly? Seem analysis is good. Fallopian tubes are open. All of those things are still important. But the main thing that as long as you're ovulating, you can get.   And I think that's a really important piece. Now, we're not talking about IVF or not IVF right now. It's just like conception at 40, right? And or older. And so I think if we just focus on the right things and don't get bogged down by these little details of someone who might approach things a little differently if they were 30, then our approach will be better. It will be healthier.   Michelle (06:37) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (06:57) you'll be more grounded in your approach. And we could focus on the areas that really need attention and support. And so I think that piece is really important as we are in our 40s, approaching fertility, still wanting to conceive. If we're always comparing ourselves to other women and other circumstances, we're gonna lose sight of what we need to do and always be trying to like catch up or do what they're doing. And I think that is...   That can really push us down the wrong road. I say this because truly I work with so many women who are over 40. And I see this time and time again. So it's coming from a lot of experience working with women over 40. And I have a wonderful story to share of a woman who is, and everyone will gasp when they hear, okay, when she conceived she was 48.   Michelle (07:55) That's awesome. I love that.   Marc Sklar (07:55) She is, I just spoke to her two days ago. When she delivers, she will be 49. Okay? And I'm not saying she didn't have a long journey.   Michelle (08:08) Was this natural or was it IVF?   Marc Sklar (08:11) This time was natural, but I'm not saying she didn't have a long journey. She did. I'm not saying it was easy. It was not. It was a long journey. It was difficult. Miscarriages, conceiving naturally, conceiving through IVF, long IVF protocols, multiple clinics, like all these things. So it wasn't easy. It was long, but she's 32 weeks pregnant right now.   Michelle (08:40) Wow, amazing.   Marc Sklar (08:41) And I say that because it's possible. It can happen. And these are the sorts of things we see on a regular basis. I'm not saying it's easy at 48, not at all. But I say that for some perspective on the process. Okay. And I think that, you know, do I think everyone could last for seven plus years trying? No, I don't think that's for everybody. She was never going to give up.   Michelle (08:51) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (09:11) Like regardless, like she was never going to stop and never give up until she was pregnant. And that's what she told me. She's like, I'm not going to stop and I'm determined. I was like, okay, I'll support you. Right. That, that, that process is not for everybody. Some people will be on it for a year or just have one or two IVF transfers. And they're like, this is too much. I'm done. I'm going to move on. And I respect everybody's path in that process, but   Michelle (09:21) Wow, amazing. Yeah.   Right.   Marc Sklar (09:39) I want everyone to know it's possible and that's why I share that story. I think it's possible regardless of age with the right support and the right process and the right focus of our attention.   Michelle (09:51) I love that. I really do. And I love the stories because I think that there's so many people that can benefit and you have that sign hope in the background. And it's true. Like those are, but stories, real life stories, there's nothing like real life stories to provide real hope. Cause you can hear, you know, there's a chance of this or a chance of that. But when you actually see an example of somebody going through those challenges that you are and having a successful pregnancy,   Marc Sklar (10:00) Yeah.   Michelle (10:21) I think that there's nothing that compares to that.   Marc Sklar (10:24) Yeah, absolutely. And I love to bring in stories wherever possible. And she was just at top of mind because I just booked her two days ago. So yeah.   Michelle (10:33) That's awesome. You know what I find really cool is the Guinness Book of World Records, the oldest pregnancy is 58 and it was natural. And it was a woman in England who, you know, in England, they don't have a lot of sunlight and, know, and vitamin D access naturally. So I thought that was really cool. But it's, it could be done. It's possible. Just like you said, and I love that you said   Marc Sklar (10:45) Wow. No.   Michelle (10:58) as long as you're ovulating, there is a possibility that you can get pregnant.   Marc Sklar (11:02) Yeah, yeah, we see this, we do see this all the time. Look, as soon as you hit 35 and 38 and certainly 40 and older, you're going to read things and hear things that say, you can't, it's not possible, you won't, you need donor, you need IVF, whatever it is that you're gonna hear, you're gonna hear it all.   I think the hardest time is when you hear it from the person on the other side of the desk in a white coat that says to you, your only option is donor, just give up. And we all hear variations of those words, whether it's not possible, just use donor, whatever variation of that, of what I just said, when you go into an office, whether that's your OB,   Michelle (11:46) True.   Marc Sklar (12:01) or your REI or whoever it might be, and you're sitting down talking to them and they see your age, they assume certain things and they make certain judgments. And they express those verbally to you. And you hear that and that registers in your brain that embeds into your brain. And you start to believe it. Well, yeah, right.   Michelle (12:22) It's nocebo.   True.   Marc Sklar (12:28) I've never heard it, say it. really like that phrase. Yeah.   Michelle (12:31) You're never going to be able to get it out of your head now. Every time a woman comes in and tells you the story.   Marc Sklar (12:36) Yeah. And so look, they said this to you, it and our our brains are really strong and we imprint with these negative things very easily. It's much harder to imprint with all the positive, it takes more effort. And so it imprints into our brain. And now we start to believe it. Well, Dr. So and so said, it's not possible, I'm not going to do it, I can't. And then we repeat that to ourselves so often that   Michelle (12:49) Right. It's true.   Marc Sklar (13:05) Now our body and our brains believe that to be true. so if someone says something negative to you, you have to work double or triple as hard on yourself to get that out. And you need to express to them, I didn't come here to hear negativity. I didn't come here for you to tell me that I can't. I'm determined to get pregnant.   Michelle (13:09) 100%.   Marc Sklar (13:33) And it's fine if you're not able or willing to help me, I'll go someplace else, but I don't need you to tell me that I can't do it, because I know that I can. And you have to do it in that moment. You have to say that in that moment to them, because what you're saying to them is repeating it back to yourself to retrain yourself and get rid very quickly, get rid of that negative comment so it doesn't embed into your brain, into your conscious.   Michelle (13:52) Yeah.   Marc Sklar (14:00) But it also allows them, they need to be woken up. One, they need to be told this is not okay. And two, you have to have the power and the strength to verbalize that truth to them. Okay. You might not be getting pregnant in the conventional way that you thought or they thought. You might not get pregnant in the way that they would like you to. It doesn't mean that you cannot get pregnant. It means that it might take longer. It might be a different path. It might be...   whatever. And so I think it's really important in those moments to stand up for yourself and verbalize that and let them know they might not like it. It's okay. Yeah, you didn't like what they said to you. So it's fine.   Michelle (14:41) Yeah, exactly.   Totally, totally. And that's like really taking your power back regardless, ultimately it's your journey. You're not there to make the doctor feel better.   Marc Sklar (14:53) Right, listen, I think that's such an important piece. Unlike most other medical visits and specialties, you are a consumer buying their service. Just because they're wearing a white coat and they have MD after their name does not mean   that they get the say in everything. It's your journey, it's your process. You're paying them a lot of money for their service. And even if you have insurance coverage, by the way, it's still insurance coverage that can go someplace else to pay for somebody else. So it doesn't have to go to them. And so...   You have the power, like they make it feel like they have the power and they control the situation. I want you to know you have the power. You control the situation and your outcome. It's your dollars that you're spending. You are and should be an equal participant in this process with them. And they don't have to dictate everything. Now, I'm not saying, you you're telling them the protocols to use all the time, but   It needs to be a joint effort in this process. It's totally different than going into a different medical environment and a different provider for different services. They're not charging you $20,000, those other people, for a service that's elective. So stand up for yourself. Have that empowerment to do so.   Michelle (16:34) Yeah.   Right.   Yeah. And another point that I want to make is, you know, when you're working with a doctor, it doesn't matter how qualified, like, I feel like they should believe in your outcome. If they're doubting your outcome, find another person.   Marc Sklar (16:57) Yeah, right now, 100%, 100%. Look, I am not opposed to donor egg. I think that donor egg is something that is super valuable and has its place. What I don't like is that just because of your age, someone is telling you, need to use donor egg. What they're really saying,   And there is certainly a place for donor egg. have lots of women that I work with that use donor egg very successfully and I'm a big proponent of it. But what, why they are telling you just based on your age to use donor egg is because their success rates are impacted by your age and the challenge, the potential challenge of getting pregnant at your age.   Michelle (17:51) Right.   Marc Sklar (17:55) And so for them and their success rates, they have higher chances with using donor egg and they would just prefer, it's an easier process, they would prefer that you use donor egg for that purpose. Okay, now again, does it mean that it's not the right decision for some? It just means that I think if they're just making that decision based on age, I think there's a lot of other pieces that need to be looked at before that decision is made.   Michelle (18:24) What you just said is so important because it's the reality. Really if the system, it's the reality because their ability to really stay on top of their game is for their statistics to make them look really good. And it's human nature. They're going to be thinking about that when they're talking to you, regardless if they're, you know, they can be great doctors, the two can coexist, but   They're also in a business. So it's important to keep that in mind in the realistic aspect of it is that it's going to make them look better. They don't want to take a risk. They see it as a risk, but that doesn't mean that just because they see it that way, that that's really the case for you.   Marc Sklar (18:54) 100%.   Right, yeah. Look, absolutely. I say this also from, so everyone knows who's listening, 50 % of the couples that I work with, 50 % of them are doing IVF. I could group IUI into that as well, so IUI or IVF, some form of assistive technique. Of that number, about 15%, use donor egg.   Michelle (19:33) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (19:34) So I'm fine with it. I'm happy to support you with it. I just often think that choice is made prematurely or that push in that direction is done prematurely without really giving you a fair chance, really looking at your case as a whole versus just looking at you as an age, as a number.   Michelle (19:56) Same thing with IVF. I also find that with IVF that people will start out maybe three months and they're young and they're like, you know, I just want a baby now. So I'm going to go to IVF. And a lot of people have a preconceived notion just because you're paying a huge amount of money and that there's technology involved that doesn't give a guarantee. in fact, I've seen people get more successful naturally, even at an older age than going through IVF.   Marc Sklar (20:05) Easy.   Well, the success rates for IVF for those who are listening and aren't aware are relatively low. You know, in your, from 30 to 35, those success rates are around 35 to 40 % ish. You know, depending on the clinic, some clinics might have a little higher, some a little bit lower, but roughly, you know, in the United States, that's an accurate statistic. It only goes down as you get older. And if you look, because most clinics,   Michelle (20:50) you   Marc Sklar (20:56) Don't have to report, but most clinics do report their statistics. If you look at statistics for IVF in their 40s without donor egg, those statistics are very, very low. So then you have to ask yourself, is this worth the money or can I get the same or better statistics and results trying naturally by addressing the root issues, by focusing on the things that I need to focus on, by getting healthy.   are those better for me? Are those odds better? One of the beautiful things you mentioned it with, you work with younger women and after three months they move forward with IVF. One of the beautiful things that's happened over the last 20 years is that fertility treatments and the fertility journey has become something that is more accepted and people are more willing to talk about it. And as a result of that,   marketing towards those communities has increased dramatically. And as a result, IBF has been spoken about more frequently because of that marketing. And so it's become so much more commonplace that couples who want to get pregnant, young, try for three months or six months, hey, it's not working.   you know, so and so did IVF and got pregnant or so, you know, we should just go do IVF. And they don't know the real statistics. They believe that it's a hundred percent successful. And as a result, it becomes the first line of treatment versus, you know, what used to be the third or fourth or fifth line of treatment, right? Well, I used to go to my OB and they used to do that. And then I would try other things. Now it's like, I'm not pregnant. Let's just go do IVF. Right. And so so many couples end up doing IVF.   thinking it's faster or more convenient without really working on themselves. And in turn, then they realized later on, I really shouldn't have started this way because it's not a guarantee. I haven't been successful. So they go there very prematurely. My preference would be is to see couples have patience. Take a step back. What's not working for me?   Michelle (23:03) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Marc Sklar (23:17) What do I need to improve and correct? And let's work on the root issues so that way you can be successful moving forward. And I had a conversation two weeks ago with a woman. I talked about it briefly this week on my Instagram stories because I think we were both frustrated with each other during this conversation. She has a history of repeated chemical pregnancies.   And she is frustrated with the lack of results and I've just started working with her. And so I asked her, know, she, and as we just started working together, she had another chemical and I asked her to stop trying for a little bit. I'm like, you're just having these ongoing chemicals and we're really not able to make progress. I just wrote out this plan for you. I want to give it some opportunity. You know, it's the end of the, it's close to the end of the year.   How about we just take off right now through the end of the year? Let's just take a break. Let's enjoy life and let's work on ourselves. And she felt like she was wasting time and she was feeling, I could feel her as soon as I said it, like getting anxious about like just the time of giving, creating this time to, and she's in her early forties. And she said, you know, I don't think I'm gonna do that. I can't do that. I'm gonna.   Michelle (24:19) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (24:44) I'm going to keep trying because I feel like I'm wasting time. We had this back and forth, this long conversation back and forth. I'm going to totally support her and respect her decision about how she wants to move forward. I just don't agree. Sometimes taking a step back and working on ourselves and creating space is progress towards our ultimate goal. I know that we think that if we're not actively having intercourse and trying to conceive at ovulation every month, that we're wasting time.   Michelle (24:57) Yeah.   yeah.   Marc Sklar (25:15) Well, in a situation like this, we're just spinning our wheels. If all we do is continue to do the same thing every month, expecting a different result, I don't know how that's gonna change. So we need to give ourselves a little bit of opportunity. And she's so worked up about it and anxious about it, she's trying to control every aspect and she's scared. She's making this decision out of fear.   Michelle (25:19) Totally.   Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (25:43) So one, the decision's being made out of fear, and two, she's trying to strangle, like, I'm gonna control all of this. It's not, we are typically not successful if we make decisions out of fear, number one, okay? And number two, the more we try to strangle something, the more you strangle it and you don't allow it to be successful.   We need to create some space, some room for things to occur. Okay? And I'm a big proponent of this, like, let's just take a step back. Let's take a deep breath. Let's understand, let's give ourselves some space and not have to be so stressed about this. Most things, if you think about it, are created in space, in a little bit of a vacuum. Sorry, not a vacuum, in a little bit of a space. If we have this vacuum, we're constantly trying to control it. There's no space for creation.   Michelle (26:19) Yep. Yeah.   Marc Sklar (26:39) There's no place for an opportunity for something to be created in. So I think it's, know, painting a beautiful painting is created from a blank canvas. It's created from space. And the same thing with our life. We need to create an opportunity for life to be created. And so that means not straining, not holding on so tight, not trying to control every little thing.   Michelle (26:52) Mm-hmm. Yep.   Marc Sklar (27:08) Let's take a step back. I'm not saying you don't like do the right things. I'm saying we don't try to control all of those things so closely. And I think this is really such an important lesson for all of us because our tendency when we're told is I'm gonna do it differently. I'm gonna add this in like, right? And you're just like more and more and more more and more. So that's like this stranglehold that happens.   Michelle (27:29) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (27:35) And I want us all to just let go a little bit more. It doesn't mean you're giving up. It doesn't mean you're taking a break. It doesn't have to be. It means you're just not holding on so tight to the outcome and the process. And I think this is so, so valuable for us. Difficult to do. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's so valuable. you know, I know her and I, were both...   kind of frustrated by the conversation because it didn't feel like she was listening to me and she didn't feel like she wanted to move on with my recommendations. She felt frustrated by me asking her to take a break. But I say it out of all love, like that is what I feel like is going to be the most beneficial for her in that situation. And I've had these conversations with others in the past and I'm just saying this from experience. So for all of you listening, sometimes we just gotta let go a little bit.   We've got to just ease up just a little bit.   Michelle (28:31) love this.   Yeah, no, I love this so much. you have no idea. Cause it, think that like you just said, you've had so much experience, you've seen this. And when you do something over and over again for many years, what happens is you start to get a feeling for it. You know, my husband works in the ER. He's starting to have a feel. He gets a sense when somebody's really sick or somebody saying they're sick, you start to get a sixth sense. You know, maybe we can't measure that, but it's a real thing. And I love that you talk about that. Cause to me that's   Marc Sklar (28:37) Yeah.   Michelle (29:04) being in a state of flow, being in a state of flow is the same exact thing that happens in our body when our chi flows and our vitality is able to feed all of our organs. cannot happen when it's constricted. And then going inward. Yeah, that's just going into the yin. You can't be constantly yang. You have to go back into the yin as well. And yin is incredibly productive.   Marc Sklar (29:25) Yeah.   Michelle (29:28) Like what happens when we're sleeping? We're in a state of yin. It's the most productive thing your body can do. You can't possibly have so much going on without that kind of like inert state. know, so it's, yeah, it's totally important, but also I don't know if you ever follow Dr. Joe Dispenza. I'm obsessed with his teachings. And have you ever done his meditations? So his meditations, he actually takes you through a form of induction, which   Marc Sklar (29:48) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   No.   Michelle (29:58) It's not hypnosis, but he gets you into a state of space, of becoming aware of space. Because when you become aware of space and everything that he does is based on science. actually has a whole research team on this. And this idea of kind of allowing this state of space, as they learn in quantum physics, you know, getting to this place where we're not locked in to the material world. We're not locked in.   We're kind of like moving back so we can allow this divine intelligence to take over. And then, and then it fixes things. It takes care of your body. does what it needs to do. Cause that's not our job. Our job is yet to direct and to intend, but our job is not to fix every single thing. When we try to do that, all we're doing is getting in the way of this divine intelligence. So I love that you're saying this because it totally like, it totally speaks the language that I'm feeling when it comes to.   fertility health and overall health like every way really.   Marc Sklar (31:00) Yeah, I agree. it's something I talk about. I have to do it, I feel like, repeatedly to the same person to get them to hear the message. And it's not intuitive. Like, personality-wise and for many of us, our goal is like, just want to fix it. I want to solve it. I want to do it. That creates this stranglehold. And so it's not intuitive for them to kind   Michelle (31:08) Yeah, because it's not common knowledge. It's not common.   Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (31:30) pull back a little bit and feel like that's moving forward. But it is.   Michelle (31:34) Yeah. Yeah, totally. Cause I mean, we have, we're conditioned to, you know, to first of all, get quick fixes. I mean, this is, we've been conditioned for years and this is all marketing for quick fixes, like quicker, faster, better, you know, and we also are conditioned to no pain, no gain. You know, you have to work for it. You have to get it. You have to be on top and   Marc Sklar (31:46) Mm-hmm.   Michelle (31:59) So over time, this is just a habit. That's going to be our knee jerk reaction or response to pretty much anything, but it's not necessarily the response your body needs.   Marc Sklar (32:10) Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's actually with the younger generation, that's only getting worse. Maybe not the no pain, no gain part, but the quick fix. That's our generation. Yeah. The younger generation is like, I don't want any pain, but I want all the gain. Yeah. And the quick fix, you know, part of it is because of the phone.   Michelle (32:20) Yeah, that might be more our generation. This is true. It's true. Yeah. I just want to be on my phone.   Dopamine.   Marc Sklar (32:39) the dopamine, but also like this, as much as Amazon has been a great service to so many people, it's a huge disservice. We, and especially the younger generation, expect everything now in a day. Right? That's the quick fix. That's like immediate gratification. Free delivery, two days. Now everyone expects free delivery and they want it there in two days. And it doesn't work like,   Michelle (32:55) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Marc Sklar (33:09) The world doesn't typically work that way, but they've preconditioned us to this. And that's to our detriment, right? Because that gets translated across the board to all aspects of our life. Now we want things faster. We more immediate gratification. it should have been fixed. Why didn't they get back to me, right? Like all of these things, I think that's a problem. Yeah.   Michelle (33:32) I'm like, we're on the same page. 100%. Yeah. And I think that, yeah, it just, these are mental patterns that we're constantly repeating. And I'll be honest. I mean, ever since I had my phone, I just don't feel as sharp. I don't remember as much. My attention can't stay on one thing. And even me, I'm aware of this and it's impacting me.   Marc Sklar (33:41) Mm-hmm.   Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. One of my favorite things to do both to bother my children and because it's beneficial to them is if we need to order something from Amazon, I put it on the longest shipping option as possible. Like if it says one week or two weeks, that's what I pick. Every time. I mean, unless I like immediately need something, whatever. But like.   Michelle (34:08) that's smart.   That's actually really smart.   You need it. You'll use it when you need it.   Marc Sklar (34:18) Yeah, but like in general, I use the longer shipping option because I'm trying to retrain their minds to be like, it's not here yet. Okay, we'll come. It's not, it's not the end of the world, right? It will arrive. and usually Amazon gives you a little benefit for that delay, by the way. Yeah.   Michelle (34:36) Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. It's a little cheaper. That's really smart. That is actually really, really smart. And then you can put things in one box. So it also is good for the environment. So when it comes to recurrent pregnancy loss, because you'd mentioned you're talking about chemical pregnancies and what are some of the common factors that you've seen clinically?   Marc Sklar (34:46) Yeah, and good for the environment.   Yeah.   Yeah, so chemical pregnancy could be a little bit different, but if we're talking about, you know, reoccurring pregnancy laws or, you know, multiple miscarriages, then the, there are four buckets that I put things into. The first bucket is one we have to look at and analyze, but one we potentially can't do much about, which is genetics, right? Is there some sort of genetic abnormality that's occurring potentially?   Michelle (35:24) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (35:30) due to my genetics or the combination of mine with my partners and what's that going on. I might end up with five causes actually now that I think about it. The next one is autoimmune issues. I find this is a huge reason for reoccurring pregnancy loss. will say also I find this is a big reason for secondary fertility issues.   Michelle (35:41) Hey, good.   Marc Sklar (35:59) with recurrent pregnancy loss. So secondary meaning you've been successful with the pregnancy one time or multiple times, and then at some point you're trying again and you're not successful, but in this case you've had, let's just say a loss. And so I would say I find that autoimmune issues are much more common in that situation because something happened in one of the previous pregnancies or postpartum that caused some sort of autoimmune issue that has triggered this outcome or contributed to this outcome.   Michelle (36:26) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (36:28) Another one is blood clotting factors, that there is some sort of, you know, some issue, whether that's genetic or not, because it doesn't have to be genetic, that is contributing to more clotting factors that doesn't allow for that embryo to implant properly, and you could have a miscarriage. So that's three. Four, uterine issues.   That could be wide, that could be like a bigger bubble that doesn't get talked about as frequently. So what's going on in implantation that might be contributing to that? Is there an infection, a virus, a bacteria? Is there inflammation? Is there endometriosis? What is going on inside the uterine cavity and with the endometrium that could be causing this pregnancy or multiple pregnancies to not be able to be held?   And then the last one, which is male factor. So 50 % of all miscarriages are male factor related. Most typically in those, it's going to be some sort of DNA fragmentation issue. So the DNA of the sperm has been compromised in some way and that's contributing to that loss. That's the one that unfortunately we don't talk about as much because, like why would a male...   Michelle (37:43) Mm-hmm.   Marc Sklar (37:57) contribute to the miscarriage, you know, and they're not carrying. So that one gets ignored, but something that needs to be ruled out. So those are the, I said four, but really five, those are the five reasons that, you we should look at.   Michelle (38:10) Yeah, for sure. And also the microbiome, know vaginal microbiome can impact a lot.   Marc Sklar (38:14) Yeah, so that I look at that in that fourth one with the uterine environment. So to me, that microbiome is a piece that I look at when I'm evaluating that. Yeah.   Michelle (38:23) Yeah. And I feel like, I feel like they should always look at that, like before transfers. mean, cause people are paying so much money. And I know in Spain, it's more commonplace for them to give vaginal, suppositories for, probiotics. And I feel like it would really be very helpful for a lot of people.   Marc Sklar (38:33) Yep.   Great.   Yeah, I've started running that test much more frequently in the last year. And I can't say I run it for everybody because at some point I'm just balancing cost of things, right? Like we could run every test under the sun. It's just like, it's a matter of cost. But certainly if I see implantation failure, if I see chemical pregnancies, you know, these are the sorts of things that for sure I'll start to look at.   Michelle (38:48) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Chris. Yeah.   Yeah, for sure. I mean, we could talk for hours, I love that we talked about, first of all, it's really interesting just to get your take on things and to hear from another person who's doing the same thing, But also, you know, I love the fact that you were talking about the energetics of it, because I think that when you do this long enough, you start to see patterns and you could start to see how emotions can really constrict the chi, you know, from our perspective.   Marc Sklar (39:38) Yeah, sure.   Michelle (39:39) So I think that that is really important because yes, we could look at all the little details and the numbers and the stats, but the energetics aspect, we can get so kind of like focused on the small parts. And then sometimes it's good to kind of go zoom back and see the bigger picture. So I thought what you said about that to me was very, very powerful.   Marc Sklar (40:01) Yeah, all of these things, like everything we talked about today is so valuable for those individuals who need that specific message, right? Like we're all in a different place and we all have our own journey, but hopefully, you know, the messages we shared today and the information we shared today really resonated with those who are listening.   Michelle (40:10) Yeah.   I'm sure they did for sure. mean, was a really valuable information. So it's been great having you back, Dr. Sklar. It's been too long and we should do this every so often because I feel like we're never going to really run out of things to talk about. Thank you so much for coming on.   Marc Sklar (40:34) I agree. I'm happy to be on any time. Yeah,   Yeah, I appreciate it and wishing everyone success on their journeys.

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I speak to Dr. Jeff Gross, a top Neurosurgeon who has a background specializing in athletic injuries and spine procedures. Dr. Jeff shares his journey from spinal neurosurgery to the forefront of regenerative medicine, focusing on the transformative potential of stem cells and exosomes. He explains the science behind stem cells, their applications in treating joint degeneration, and their role in anti-aging and fertility. Dr. Jeff also discusses the regulatory landscape, the cost of treatments, and the exciting future of stem cell research, including innovative approaches to enhance mitochondrial function which has a lot of promise when it comes to egg and sperm health.   Takeaways   Stem cells can be used to treat various conditions, including inflammation. Accumulation of inflammation is a key factor in aging and conception challenges. Exosomes may play a significant role in the benefits of stem cell therapy. Regenerative medicine is evolving rapidly, with new research emerging. The cost of stem cell treatments can vary but is becoming more accessible. Stem cells are sourced from well-regulated donor programs in the US. Direct injection of stem cells may yield higher doses than IV administration. Future research may explore the use of exosomes in fertility treatments. Dr. Jeff emphasizes the importance of personalized treatment plans.      Guest Bio:   Dr. Jeffrey Gross graduated from the University of California, Berkeley with a degree in biochemistry and molecular cell biology. He earned his Doctor of Medicine in 1992 from the George Washington University School of Medicine. He contributed to virology research during his studies. After graduating, he undertook a residency in neurological surgery at the University of California, Irvine Medical Center until 1997. He then pursued a Fellowship and Chief Residency in Spinal Biomechanics at the University of New Mexico until 1999. Licensed in California and Nevada, Dr. Gross has SPINE practices in Orange County and Henderson, Nevada. A trained neurological surgeon, he specializes in athletic injuries and spine procedures, and offers longevity and biohacking consultations. He achieved board certification by the American Board of Neurological Surgery and is a member of several prestigious medical societies. He has written textbooks and articles in his area of expertise and is a peer-reviewer for the state of California and a scientific journal. Since 2020, Top Doctor recognized Dr. Gross as a leading Neurological Surgeon. He also received HealthTap's 2022 Top Doctor Award as a top Neurological Surgeon in the U.S. Dr. Gross founded ReCELLebrate, focusing on anti-aging and regenerative medicine. The mission for ReCELLebrate emphasizes offering modern biochemical treatments and considering surgery as a last resort.     Websites: https://recellebrate.com/ https://www.instagram.com/recellebrate/ https://www.tiktok.com/@recellebrate https://www.youtube.com/@stemcellwhisperer https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffrey-gross-md-5605605/       For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Check out Michelle's Latest Book: The Way of Fertility! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Jeff.   Dr. Jeff (00:03) Thank you so much for having me. Nice to see you.   Michelle (00:06) Nice to see you as well. So you definitely have a very long, impressive background. So I'd love for you to share your story on how you got to really to the anti-aging stem cells work that you do, So I'd love to just get a quick background so the listeners can hear.   Dr. Jeff (00:26) Sure, thank you for that. It was by accident of sorts, maybe directed accident because I was practicing as a spinal neurosurgeon, taking care mainly of neck and back trouble, some other neurological issues, nerve problems, things like that. But my practice was highly consultative, a lot of opinions, second opinions. I was seeing patients who had neck and back problems that were perhaps...   mistreated or not fully treated elsewhere. And I was kind of, I was kind of a catchall for that. But my patients came to me one at a time. And these are patients that had tried different things and they just didn't work adequately. Like physical therapy, like anti-inflammatories, like rest, like, you know, chiropractic, acupuncture, maybe spinal epidural injections or things like that.   And they'd come in and say, well, you know, help for a minute, but just wasn't enough. I'm still having a lot of trouble with my neck or back or pinch nerve or whatever. And I say, well, the next thing on the menu is to talk about surgical options. And they'd say, well, I'm not that bad. So wait a minute. Okay, good. Cause I was hoping you would say you're not ready for that. Cause I really didn't want to offer that to you. Cause I've always been on the slow to operate side of things. So, a lot of them would say, well, how about lasers or how about.   Michelle (01:37) Mm-hmm, yeah.   Dr. Jeff (01:52) herbs or how about cannabis or how about stem cells? And I heard the stem cell one more than once and chance favors the prepared mind. So my undergraduate background is in molecular cell biology, which is kind of the stem cell, know, root of stem cell biology. And, you know, when you get whisked off from undergraduate to med school and residency and practice,   you don't really get to apply that cool science. So the nerd part of me took over and said, I wonder what's happened in all these years since I went to undergraduate, you know? So instead of going to the Stodgy Neurosurgeon Convention every year, or more than one, where the same people pat themselves on the back for saying the same things for decades, I decided I'm going to open my mind and start going to stem cell and regenerative medicine meetings.   Michelle (02:46) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (02:46) So I can offer this to my spine patients. So I did that and I not only brought back a new tool to offer them, but it blossomed into so much more. You can't get access to regenerative medicine, stem cell medicine, and I'm using those phrases sort of interchangeably here, and not say, I'll help your knee or your ankle or your shoulder or your...   autoimmune issues or other hyper inflamed states. Or, you you read more and you see accumulation of inflammation is really the aging process. And if you can fight against inflammation accumulating, you're fighting against aging. So the whole anti-aging umbrella opened up and here I am, you know, six years later where spinal medicine is only a small percentage of my practice and I love it.   Michelle (03:33) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   That's great. So, so for people listening, some people might be like, okay, I kind of heard about stem cells, but what exactly are they? So just for people listening for the first time, we're really not understanding that aspect of like what they are. Cause we hear about it a lot. And over the years, like you said, stem cell research has really drastically changed and has gone into so many different things. Sometimes we hear about like   Dr. Jeff (03:45) So.   Yeah.   Michelle (04:12) you know, back in the day about them growing a liver, like, you know, the possibility of growing organs through stem cells. for people who are really new to this, I would love for you to break it down.   Dr. Jeff (04:15) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   sure, let's do stem cell 101. That's great. and being a fertility podcast, this is relevant probably more than any other area of medicine because fertility and creating an embryo is, you know, creating a group of stem cells that divide and grow into a fetus who's made of all stem cells, right? And then,   Michelle (04:28) Hahaha   Right.   Dr. Jeff (04:54) then that fetus is born and it's a baby and the baby grows for 18, 20, 25 years, whatever. And that growth requires stem cells. And then after that, an adult has to maintain, has to replace, has to restore, has to regenerate and that requires stem cells. So what are these? They are cells from which other cells arise, from which other cells stem from. Okay? So, and they are...   Michelle (05:20) Mm.   Dr. Jeff (05:24) They are powerful because there are different types, right? We throw out the phrase stem cells, but when you're a one cell or a two cell or a four cell embryo, you have these omnipotent cells. They can form any part of your body. They are amazingly powerful. As those divide and differentiate, meaning take on some specific characteristics, they become less powerful and more directed, and those are called pluripotent.   And a pluripotent might be able to regrow a limb. And as you, as you, and many of your listeners probably know, there are certain species that can still do that. Like a starfish, you cut off a leg of a starfish, it can regrow it. Or a tail of a lizard or a limb of an axolotl, which is a strain iguana like creature from Mexico. So there are many examples in biology where these pluripotent stem cells can be called upon. And you mentioned maybe regrowing a liver someday.   that will probably require some knowledge of pluripotent stem cells, which are being looked at. However, after these stem cells sort of retain, we bank them in our body as adults, those are called multipotent. So they can't regrow a limb, they can't regrow an organ per se, although they can replace some organ cells and regenerate. And you were always replacing cells, we're replacing skin cells and   you know, hair follicles and all kinds of things that require stem cells. If you have an injury and you cut yourself, you, require stem cells to help come repair that. and you know, we make new blood cells all the time that requires stem cells in our bone marrow. So we are using our stem cells. This is not new. We just know more about it now. And the whole move in regenerative medicine is, is to take   Michelle (07:03) Mm.   Dr. Jeff (07:19) a lesson from that biology and use it strategically to help somebody do something they need.   Michelle (07:27) So interesting. So give us a couple of examples on how it works in the body. Like for somebody who needs it, for example, whereas like a therapy.   Dr. Jeff (07:34) Well, the-   Right. So the low hanging fruit as an example, are joint degeneration. Also called arthritis or osteoarthritis vaguely, or some people it's called bone on bone if it's bad enough. Right. And these are your painful joints. It could be from an old injury, an old arthroscopic surgery. It could be from just, you know, accumulated wear and tear. And this is a problem with the joints where the cartilage   is, you know, down and the joint is painful. You can't use it as well stiffness, et cetera. And it slows people down. And when you slow people down, particularly in their older years, they're less mobile and then they can't maintain their bones, their bone density, AKA, you know, the one way to fight osteoporosis is weight bearing exercise. So if you can't, if your joints hurt, you're not going to do it. And muscle mass, cause both bone density and muscle mass are correlated with longevity. So if you keep moving.   You maintain your muscles and bones, you'll live longer statistically. So in any event, we want to preserve joints. And that's kind of why I got into this field. I'm a structural guy of the spine and it easily extrapolates to the other joints. And most of the research, the well-published research comes from knees and other joints. And just parenthetically, most of the good published research that we follow, because we're not just shooting from the hip here.   We do shoot some hips, but it comes from Asia and Europe. The United States is behind, although we can do these things. And, you know, we can talk about that later, but the short of it is we have a really good track record of helping people with degenerated joints in reducing pain and improving function. And we do have some examples with where we've done some MRIs.   Michelle (09:09) Ha ha ha!   Dr. Jeff (09:37) before and after and the after MRIs have shown some regrowth of like knee cartilage, for example, and things like that. you know, we're not allowed to make any claims because we're not yet approved for marketing claims, but I can show examples and I have to say like you invest in stocks, know, past performance does not guarantee future results or something like that, but in medicine, never, yeah, yeah.   Michelle (10:01) Right, and each person is different and unique. Yeah.   Dr. Jeff (10:05) But anyway, it's better, listen, if you want to try to avoid a joint replacement surgery, it's worth looking into. So whether it's spine or joints, so that's the easy stuff. Low hanging fruit, I call it. The other stuff is anything with an inflammatory problem in your body can potentially have benefits from regenerative medicine on its face being a natural anti-inflammatory. So for example, autoimmune problems with hyperinflammation.   You know, like rheumatoid arthritis, thyroiditis, inflammatory bowel syndromes, MS, things that have an inflammatory component. Also, most diseases of aging are diseases of inflammation. So coronary artery disease, Alzheimer's, things like this, all have an inflammatory component. And this allows me to overlap into your area is there are some causes of fertility.   issues that have an inflammatory component, whether it's a uterine issue or ovarian failure. And sometimes fighting that inflammation, whether it's through lifestyle changes, diet, exercise, mindfulness, sleep, reducing mental stress, all those things can help reduce the inflammation and help potentially lead to successful pregnancy. The same can go for use of   regenerative biologics like stem cells, and they're not the only thing we use. And there are wonderful publications. And before we got on this, I refreshed my knowledge by doing a little homework. And there are even newer publications on use of these things to improve fertility. Now, most of these are from China because they are way ahead of us. But that doesn't mean they can't be applied here outside of China.   Michelle (12:01) Interesting. So interesting. So how do they get these stem cells?   Dr. Jeff (12:07) So stem cells and other related biologic material in the US comes from a well-regulated donor program. Typically the donors are women who are planning to have a C-section. Some of the labs even recruit the donors in the first trimester, make sure they're having a healthy pregnancy, they're not using substances they shouldn't be using, they take their prenatal vitamins, they're not in any high-risk behaviors.   And at the time of the C-section, they simply, and once the mother is congratulated with her new baby, they take the amniotic fluid, they take the umbilical cord, they take the placenta and they put them on ice in a sterile fashion and they go to an FDA compliant certified lab that can test and screen the materials, make sure there's nothing in there, no diseases, no problems, and then make it available to clinics and end users like myself.   So there are myths that all kinds of crazy stuff are happening out there, but not here in the US. We use highly regulated donor processes.   Michelle (13:19) When you have the stem cells from donors, can they be multiplied or is it just like a finite amount? Whatever is there is there.   Dr. Jeff (13:28) They can be, there are labs that put them in culture, would let them grow and divide and that's one thing that can be done. Now, just like anything, a copy of a copy of a copy tends to lose its vitality. So, things like telomere length, which is an aging marker, that changes with each division of a cell. So I don't like to use a divided material.   Michelle (13:50) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (13:58) I use just fresh first pass stuff. Maybe your listeners are a little young for this, but there's a really funny movie called Multiplicity, where Michael Keaton clones himself, and each clone is a little bit wonkier than the original. if you want a good laugh, yeah, check out that movie. But in short, I prefer the actual native original self.   Michelle (14:15) Comedy used to be so much better.   Right. Got it. Is this similar to cord blood, you know, when they, when the baby's born and they say, do you, you know, you can opt to do that and then store   Dr. Jeff (14:27) When we do self,   Yeah, let's tap into that for just a second and unpack it if it's okay. know, historically you would be offered to donate or not donate, but store your umbilical cord. And the purpose of that was, God forbid your child gets leukemia in seven years, you have a matched set of cells that they culture, they do divide.   Michelle (15:01) Mm-hmm. Right.   Dr. Jeff (15:02) and replace the child's bone marrow, you don't have to worry about a donor or a match. Now you can do that and you can also use, in some labs we'll use those umbilical cord cells as a source for any other future purpose, whether it's a joint problem or what have you, they're now doing that. In fact, you can use that for family members as well. So the reasons for a bank in your umbilical cord, and they probably won't tell you in the pamphlet, because it's not yet approved for marketing claims.   Michelle (15:19) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (15:31) is much more than just, you know, just in case there's a case of leukemia, you need a full bone marrow replacement.   Michelle (15:39) So interesting. how, when you do have the stem cells, first of all, it must cost a fortune, it sounds like, it's limited. It's not something that you, because you're depending on donors.   Dr. Jeff (15:52) No, well, there's a little bit more to it. And that, and I keep using the phrase stem cells and other biologics. Let's, let's talk about other biologics for a minute because some of these other biologics are less expensive and here in the U S it's, it's affordable. You don't have to necessarily leave the country and go to go to central America or, you know, Hong Kong to get this or Europe. A lot of the professional athletes historically went to Europe, but they're, they're getting it here, here in the U S too.   Michelle (15:59) Okay.   Mm-hmm.   that's good.   Dr. Jeff (16:22) But we found out that if we gave you stem cells, let's say you came over and I hooked up an IV and we gave you stem cells, in 10 to 14 days, those would be out of your system. However, the benefits would go on for weeks or months or even some of the benefits would be prolonged. So why is that? If the stem cells are gone, what's going on? Well, it turns out the stem cells aren't really doing all the work. The stem cells are delivering cell to cell communicating and influential   Michelle (16:31) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (16:52) biomolecules, peptides, growth factors, small RNAs from cell, from the stem cells to your cells, reinvigorating and activating your cells to do that work. And those, those communication packets are called extracellular vesicles or for short exosomes. And you may have seen this, a lot of estheticians use them. You know, they can do the atom to your microneedle facial.   Michelle (17:11) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (17:20) It's sort of an advanced vampire facial with these exosomes. So the exosomes are probably doing most of the work that the stem cells were doing. And there are advantages. They penetrate tissue better. They're easier to store and handle. They'll cross the blood brain barrier if you want them in your brain and nervous system. And they're less than half the price of stem cells. So we can do things that used to cost, you know, 20, $30,000 out of this country.   for less than half of that here, because the big cost is the materials, these biologics. So what does it cost was your original question, but now that you know we're using these exosomes preferentially in a lot of these cases. And by the way, as an aside, all stem cells, sorry, start over, all cells make exosomes. We're using stem cell derived exosomes from amniotic fluid, which is quite abundant. So there are really no cells in this.   Michelle (18:11) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (18:19) There's no matching that needs to be done. and it's, it's wonderful. So, the, you know, for example, treating a knee, if we're trying to repair a knee, help someone heal a knee, we're asking their cells to do the work. We're just providing the, the, the re-instruction to tap back into the original factory that made that joint in the first place. And something that like that is kind of two doses of biologics, one above one below the knee.   the injection, the facility and everything where we do it as sterile. All that is, you know, in the nine to 12,000, depending on what we're doing. So it's not, it's not crazy. And IVs, if we do an IV, that's anywhere from like 4,000 to 8,500, depending on the dose.   Michelle (18:54) Mm-hmm.   And how many times would somebody have to do that?   Dr. Jeff (19:07) Maybe once. Usually the joints are one and done and then they go back to their normal wear and tear. So is it possible someone's going to come back in in 20 years and need it again maybe, but that's okay. We follow a French protocol that has published 15 year follow-up and we follow that protocol how they do it. And they've had over 82 % of the patients had wonderful results at the 15 year mark. We're waiting for them to publish the 20 year mark.   Michelle (19:10) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (19:35) So we're not making this up. We're just duplicating what's already been done and good science that's out there.   Michelle (19:42) And for inflammatory conditions, autoimmune conditions, or even fertility, well, you know, because it's secondary to that a lot of times. Do you use IV? So really get it right into the bloodstream. Okay.   Dr. Jeff (19:51) Right, right.   Yeah, I would definitely. yeah. Yeah. And that's how we approach anti-aging anyway. People are biohackers, anti-agers that come in. This is what we do. And we, we do an IV. We, we try to figure out a dose that makes sense for that person based on the budget and their age and maybe their inflammatory markers and their blood tests and other things. And then we see how long it lasts. And some people get a year, two years. Some people get, you know, six months.   Some people come in preventively and do every three months a lower dose. just, we customize it for the individual.   Michelle (20:33) And that crosses the blood brain barrier. So it's good for brain health, really for just everything. The system.   Dr. Jeff (20:37) Yeah. Anywhere there's an inflammatory burden, we'll do it. But exosomes do cross the blood-brain barrier. And let me go off script here for a second. For listeners that have been pregnant before, in later trimesters, a pregnant woman has glowing skin and her hair is growing wonderfully. And typically, there's not a lot of joint pain, maybe   Michelle (20:43) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (21:06) low back pain from carrying the weight, why is that woman in, you know, not having this great skin and all that, it's because that woman is getting a daily dose of stem cell derived exosomes because they also not only cross the blood brain barrier, they cross the placental barrier. So what we do is almost simulate that in a single dose.   Michelle (21:25) Mm-hmm. Got it.   That's so interesting. in that case, when you are doing IV, is that also one and done?   Dr. Jeff (21:37) No, like I was saying, it depends on what benefits someone gets and for how long they last. It could be depending on the person's need. Now, if it's someone who's got an inflammatory problem and they're just trying to get pregnant, could be a one and done. If it's someone that has benefited from it and wants to do it repetitively, then we would help support that and make it available.   Michelle (21:43) I see.   Mm-hmm. Done.   Have you heard of this being used and injected directly into like uterus or those areas or is it typically more like IV?   Dr. Jeff (22:11) So not into the uterus, although there are examples in men of injecting the testes where they're not producing adequate sperm counts. I think IV would be a first. So I didn't read anything about ovarian injection yet. Could that be coming? Possibly. IV is obviously an easier thing to do. So I would try the IV first. But you're right, you're going to get a higher dose if you inject directly.   Michelle (22:20) Mm-hmm.   Or ovaries maybe?   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Jeff (22:40) That might be something to look at. haven't done it. We do have some sexual health shots we do at the exosomes now where we do P shots and O shots for men and women respectively for improvement in sensation, lubrication, that kind of.   Michelle (22:53) Mm-hmm.   I know that they do PRP with the ovaries and I think also uterus. So that's why I was asking because it's kind of similar, you doesn't have the same exact substance, but it's the idea of stimulating.   Dr. Jeff (23:14) No, I completely agree with that. PRP is basically a very lower, it's the lowest end self-donated regenerative medicine. And it probably contains some cells and some exosomes in there.   Michelle (23:21) Mm-hmm. Right.   So interesting. that's really fascinating. for you specifically, like if people wanted to work with you, do they have to come visit you, your office, where you are?   Dr. Jeff (23:38) Not necessarily. So, you know, most of what we do, we start out remotely. The vast majority of my patients come from somewhere other than Las Vegas, where I'm located, actually Henderson, Nevada, which is a suburb of Las Vegas. Most people start remotely. We do a lot of the blood tests or if they need MRIs or what have you remotely, and we only invite them to come to town if there's a reason to come to town. We do have some other colleagues in other parts of the states too that can do IVs.   things like that so we can sometimes refer. Yeah.   Michelle (24:09) Mm-hmm. It's really fascinating. It seems like state of the art. It's like the new thing that's coming out.   Dr. Jeff (24:13) and   It's a, and there are things coming. if you'll allow me to just jump there for a second. you know, we are working on some projects here at, at my practice. one of them involves exosomes that are stuffed with extra mitochondria. And for those of you that don't know, that's a small part within the cell. It's kind of a cell within the cell. we learned in high school biology, it was the powerhouse of the cell. made the energy, but it actually does much more.   Michelle (24:22) of course. Yeah.   Hmm   Dr. Jeff (24:46) And some causes of infertility relate to poor mitochondrial activity in the cells of the ovaries and things like that. So we're looking at exosomes that could be overstuffed with, that can donate more mitochondria. So that could be very useful. There are many other reasons to do that as well. And then we're even involved in a project that may be useful to help patients with cancer. And this is a particular exosome.   that comes from a certain type of immune cell, a T cell in our body, whose job is to identify, circulate around the body, identify, and then selectively remove or kill an abnormal cell like a cancer cell. So imagine that as an augmentative therapy or even as a preventative. Yeah, so we're hot on that trail. That's coming soon to a, to a re-celebrate clinic near you.   Michelle (25:36) That's fantastic.   I love that. That's awesome. That's really amazing. And what have you seen so far in regards to fertility? you seen people do this treatment and it work? with fertility, there's so many different reasons for why. I mean, it could be so many different. It's really a range of underlying conditions, but what have you noticed so far?   Dr. Jeff (26:03) Correct. So honestly, I don't have a fertility practice that's pretty far afield from what I do. I do a lot of structural work, a lot of joints, a lot of spine. We do some autoimmune and a few other things. But I have talked to colleagues, fertility specialists in the past, and we've talked about exosomes. I was at a biohacking conference in Texas last year.   Michelle (26:11) Yeah.   Dr. Jeff (26:32) the Dave Asprey event and someone came up to me and asked me about fertility. So I know it's on my radar. It's just not something we put out there necessarily. had one gentleman that had low sperm count. We had talked about doing something for him, but he didn't do it yet.   Michelle (26:34) Mm-hmm.   But have you seen or through colleagues or any studies that have shown even just IV, doing this with IV that it's helped?   Dr. Jeff (27:00) I've only read the abstract of some of the Chinese studies because we don't always get the full article translated. But most of those studies speak to direct injection. They have a lot of animal studies. So I don't have information on the clinical use of...   Michelle (27:07) Okay.   Dr. Jeff (27:25) exosomes personally for fertility, but I know that others have talked to me about it. So it's being done. And I, I did look it up online before we met today and you can actually find, there was a clinic in Europe that was advertising it for this purpose for fertility. Yeah.   Michelle (27:31) Mm-hmm.   Interesting. Yeah, which I'm sure people don't really have to go all the way to Europe. I'm sure also if you get the IV and your body's going through this anti-aging and your mitochondria are benefiting and also, which is very much linked to aging eggs. So you want to like revitalize and reawaken and also lower inflammation that also helps with egg quality and sperm quality.   Dr. Jeff (27:54) and   Michelle (28:08) So this is just definitely something that I found when I saw you, I was like, this is really interesting. I think that it's something that people should be hearing about. And I'm sure I wouldn't be surprised if in the future, a lot of fertility clinics are going to start looking into this as well.   Dr. Jeff (28:26) Yeah, no, the one that was advertising is an international fertility group, I think, in Eastern Europe. And they specifically have a webpage on this. Now, we can't have those webpages here in the US because we are not yet approved for marketing claims.   Michelle (28:32) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm. Right.   It's so interesting how all that works. But yeah, this is great. This is a really interesting topic and really great information. I love like cutting edge stuff. I love that it's kind of like to be continued because you're still like, You already have learned so much, but of course, there's so much more coming, which is exciting. I find it really exciting.   Dr. Jeff (29:00) Yeah.   I do too. have this renewed interest. know, I'm, I'm a self admitted nerd. So this is, gets me back into things that are very exciting. I don't get to do the same thing day after day anymore. that's, that's.   Michelle (29:19) I love that.   Yeah, for sure. So awesome. So for people who want to learn more about you and what you do, how can they find you?   Dr. Jeff (29:30) Check out Re-Celebrate because you're celebrating the renewal of your cells. That's spelled R-E-C-E-L-L-E-B-R-A-T-E. And that is our website is recelebrate.com. Instagram is recelebrate at recelebrate it. LinkedIn, Pinterest, YouTube, but just type in recelebrate, you'll find it.   Michelle (29:52) Awesome. And you'll find it also in the episode notes. So I'll share all the links in there, as well as information about Dr. Jeff. So this is a great conversation. This is really, really great. And I appreciate you coming on and explaining it so nicely and really breaking it down for us, you know, people that don't have that background. So thank you so much for coming on today, Dr. Jeff.   Dr. Jeff (30:03) Yeah.   you   It's been my pleasure, thank you for having me.

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Caryn Johnson of @_bondlife shares her personal journey through infertility, detailing her struggles with unexplained infertility and the eventual discovery of autoimmune issues affecting her reproductive health. She emphasizes the importance of understanding the immune system's role in fertility and the impact of lifestyle factors such as diet, stress, and environmental toxins. Caryn advocates for women to take charge of their health by educating themselves and seeking out supportive healthcare practitioners. She also discusses her supplement line, Bond, which aims to address these issues holistically.   Takeaways   Caryn's journey began with unexplained infertility. She experienced multiple failed IVF attempts. The immune system plays a crucial role in fertility. Many women with unexplained infertility have underlying immune issues. Stress and lifestyle factors significantly impact reproductive health. Gut health is linked to fertility and autoimmune conditions. Caryn's research led her to create a supplement line, Bond. Advocacy and education are essential for women facing infertility. Environmental toxins can affect fertility outcomes. Women should empower themselves with knowledge about their health.   Guest Bio:   Caryn Johnson is the Co-Founder and CEO of BOND, an innovative line of supplements reimagining hormone and reproductive health, inspired by her experience with infertility. The former Vital Proteins Chief Marketing Officer launched BOND in the Fall of 2023, fusing her professional expertise with her passion to help women take a more proactive and empowered approach to caring for their cycle and reproductive health.   In 2017, when trying to start a family, Caryn learned she was autoimmune infertile. What she discovered was a stark reality - the lack of open conversations and support for women facing similar struggles. The doctor's office often left much unsaid, and the information available was surprisingly scarce. Shocked by the limited support system in place, Caryn recognized the need for a change. She leaned on her industry knowledge and contacts to advocate for herself and uncover invaluable resources. Her personal journey became a catalyst for a larger mission to make her learnings accessible to women everywhere. It was this experience that led her to create BOND.    A natural born innovator, Caryn is disrupting the marketplace with this new line of products that offers women the opportunity to take control of their reproductive health before it's too late. BOND's proprietary formulations, designed to preserve fertility potential and lay the foundation for a healthier body, feature science-backed ingredients that work together to balance hormones, protect egg health, and provide cycle support. With BOND, Caryn aims to address women's health more holistically and encourage a more proactive conversation around reproductive wellness.    Caryn's career began in marketing and public relations where she worked with many notable beauty brands and PR firms before being recruited as the fifth employee at then startup, Vital Proteins. She was the first marketing hire at the organization and ultimately, became the company's Chief Marketing Officer leading the team through the brand's acquisition by Nestle Health Sciences. Following her tenure at Vital Proteins, Caryn took on the challenge of leading Owlet, a baby monitor company focused on preventing SIDS, where she served as Chief Marketing Officer and successfully guided the company through its initial public offering.   Caryn lives in Chicago with her husband and two children Elijah and Ruthie.    You can use coupon code THEWHOLESOME for 20% off all products. https://bond.life       For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Check out Michelle's Latest Book: The Way of Fertility! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Karin.   Caryn Johnson (00:02) Thank you. Thank you for having me.   Michelle (00:05) It's so nice to meet you. And I know that you do a lot of amazing work helping women I also know that you have your own story that you can share. And I would love to hear your story and really what got you inspired to do the work that you're doing.   Caryn Johnson (00:21) Yeah, absolutely. So I'm here to share really the start of how I got to where I am today. And that really is rooted in finding out that I couldn't get pregnant. So we can start there and then we can get into all of the details together. But my husband and I met when I was young, early 20s. And by the time we got married many years later, we were already   most right away to start having a family. There was a piece of me inside that knew that I was gonna have some sort of issue. I don't know, you already mentioned that you do visualizations to me before we started. So, you know, like I just had this feeling whether I manifested it for myself or not. I, you know, we did the full year of trying to get pregnant to no success and then went back to our doctor.   Michelle (01:03) Yeah, yeah.   Caryn Johnson (01:18) my typical OB-GYN and started the path of IUIs, did four IUIs, had beautiful eggs, each IUI, and reacted to the medicine quite well, but never got a positive from any of those. So we were recommended to move towards IVF. found a reproductive endocrinologist in Chicago, which is where I was located at the time.   started the path to IVF and went through the process of an egg retrieval. Ended up seeing similar to what we saw in the IUIs, which was that my reproductive system performed quite well. And I was able, they were able to retrieve just about 30 eggs from one retrieval, which is quite high, borderline too high, but.   just shows like the reaction to the medicine and the overall viability of my reproductive system. Of that, I had really normal odds and was able to bank close to 14, I believe, quality grade embryos. So I was really excited to move into implantation because at that point,   I just really thought like whatever was unexplained is just kind of, you know, over to the side now. you know, all these things are just working out in my favor. So this is gonna be, you know, it for me, which a lot of women I feel like go into IVF feeling like the IVF center is like the place where you get your baby, which isn't always true. So.   I started doing implantations and I started losing babies. Prior to that point, I had never even tested positive in any sort of like regard for a pregnancy test. And I wasn't one of those that, you know, jumped right off birth control, you know, to move into conception. I hadn't been on birth control for many, many, many, many years, you know, prior to this point. But the implantations started failing and   My doctor said, this embryo was only attached for two hours, maybe a couple of hours is what they said. I just thought, how on earth, like why on earth would something attach for just a couple of hours and then that be the situation where   It just doesn't work out from there. Like what is happening? And you know, got immediately, the immediate response was bad odds. You know, this happens, miscarriage happens. Just keep going. You know, one in four, in eight, you you get all the stats and there's definitely a piece of that when you're not working with really good quality embryos. But you know, I was, I knew that everything was genetically great. knew.   and had no reason to believe that my body wasn't in working order to, you know, produce a pregnancy. So I just started pushing harder and getting a little bit more more fearful of continuing down the path of losing babies because I just, it hit me so hard. Even the loss of two hours, I mean,   I just like, I've never felt sorrow like that. And I didn't, I just didn't feel like myself or really anyone should have to like continue down that path for like the sake of odds. So I started doing my own research and I was at the time experiencing some issues in my digestive system. I also now looking back had a definite cortisol issue.   which relates into the picture, but I was a CMO at Vital Proteins at the time, which is that blue tub collagen company. And so I had a high stress level and I knew that something was going on in my digestive system. This was, you know, 2016, 2015, 2016, 2017. So.   Michelle (05:39) yeah.   Caryn Johnson (05:58) almost prior to when we really started, you know, as a world, as a community talking about the microbiome and gut health. But I sought out a naturopath who ended up doing a blood panel on me and told me that I had, you know, hundreds of food sensitivities, which is a   a classic sign of gut dysbiosis, but at the time it wasn't translated back to like an issue in the microbiome. It was treated as like, yes, you have all of these, you have all of these issues with, you know, different foods, just avoid them. And that will be the solve versus, why do you have like, you know, why do you have a hundred things that you can't eat?   Michelle (06:42) Hmm.   Caryn Johnson (06:46) like watermelon seeds up to your typical gluten, et cetera. So I just started doing my own research online and I found a book called, Is My Body Baby Friendly? It's written by Dr. Alan Beer, who is now deceased, but it's over 700 pages of the science of how the immune system works with your reproductive system, your hormones, et cetera.   in order to effectively procreate or in order for conception and implantation to occur. And that's when I realized there was something greater going on in my body outside again of just my reproductive system that we just hadn't figured out yet. So I read the book Front to Back. It's a very science heavy book. So I had to do a lot of like   thinking about new terms and figuring and trying to remember what I was learning. At the end of the book, there was a recommendation at the time, there are more doctors now, but at the time for three doctors that practice this type of medicine, which is the field of reproductive immunology. And so,   Michelle (08:01) Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (08:03) One of those doctors, Dr. Joanne Kwok-Kam of Rosalind Franklin ended up being in my backyard essentially 45 minutes away in the Chicago area. So I took that as a sign that I needed to call and get additional help above and beyond my RE who was doing the IVF. And I called over there and was immediately put on a six month wait list.   So proceeded with the next round of IVF because I was already on some hormones. So I was already going through the round. I had at that point only done my own research. So I wasn't really sure what was going on in my body or if I could believe what I had read because my doctors that were helping me with the IVF weren't really like saying that   They believed in the immunology side of things. They hadn't seen enough research, et cetera. So I wasn't really getting support on what I was researching. So it was around the holidays, October-ish, when I ended up calling into the clinic and I ended up getting a call right around   Thanksgiving that they had a cancellation and I got moved up on the wait list. So I ended up getting into the reproductive immunology clinic many months before they said I would two weeks before my next IVF transfer and that was just an awesome Hail Mary. They did a full ultrasound. So tip to toe thyroid, you know, your whole stomach area inside and outside.   And then they do the craziest blood panel that I've ever done. don't know how you can even draw that much blood, but vials and vials of blood to look at immune markers in addition to hormone markers, vitamin markers, and your typical blood panel. And they called me back 48 hours later and said, need to cancel this implantation. You have the highest level of antibodies that we've ever seen.   not that we've ever seen, but that we're able to track. So you're past like where the chart goes essentially. So if you proceed with your implantation, it's almost definitely gonna end in a miscarriage because your body is gonna fight it off. And at that point I was terrified because that was like the first real something's actually wrong with you that I had heard.   Michelle (10:21) wow.   Wow.   Caryn Johnson (10:50) Everything else was just unexplained, unexplained, unexplained. And I just went into shock. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know who to believe. You know, I had two sets of doctors saying different things. So I proceeded with the implantation and I ended up implanting both a boy and a girl embryo. And then   started treatment right away on my immune system through the reproductive immunologist. So what they did was they put me on a series of pretty intense medications to quiet my immune system. And then I did what is called IVIG, which are blood transfusions or infusions that essentially look   to wash your blood of the antibodies that are over protecting the immune system. So I went into this protocol and I ended up getting pregnant. It was positive right away. we saw, so the clinic ended up treating me one to three times a week with this IVIG infusion, which they're about two to three hours long based on, they're based on body weight.   Michelle (11:50) Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (12:14) I was in their office, you know, at least one to two times a week, also for an ultrasound. So I knew by five weeks that both embryos had attached. you know, at that point, my immune markers were even more all over the place. We couldn't get my immune system to a stable level by any means. And I ended up losing the girl embryo at seven weeks.   her heartbeat slowed and then ultimately it stopped, which is one of the symptoms or issues when you have an autoimmune issue going into a pregnancy. So, you know, that was so sad and devastating and she was higher up in the womb than the boy embryo. So at that point,   It was pretty much 50-50 odds of if she was going to end up coming out and bringing him with her or if she was going to be what's called a vanishing twin, which is when your body reabsorbs the pregnancy for the sake of the other pregnancy, which is really the best case scenario because then you don't lose the other baby.   Michelle (13:18) my gosh.   Caryn Johnson (13:36) I was put on bed rest. This was the start of my bed rest between six and seven weeks, which continued until I gave birth, basically. I was able to go to work, but that was pretty much it. And I lived in fear that we were going to lose a little boy, but I ended up reabsorbing the girl embryo. So she never came out and we just really aggressively treated my immune system.   which held on until 34 weeks when I went into basically how the immune system works during the pregnancy is during the first trimester, there is more inflammation that can be in the body and then it has to subside for the second trimester to continue successfully and then your inflammation increases and that's   eventually causes or is part of why you go into labor. But my inflammation and my immune system increased really fast. my water broke early and I ended up having him, you know, early but he was healthy because some of the immune medications included steroids. So he was a little bit bigger than, you know, your typical   34, 35 weaker. But I was able to carry my son and that really started my story of what the heck happened and why is autoimmunity so under researched when it comes to your reproduction and your fertility chances and how can I actually do more now that I have my children here.   Michelle (15:06) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (15:33) to support other women so they don't have to go through this amount of trauma, right? But also this amount of like research and advocacy for themselves because at the end of the day, like we just can't expect that from everyone and we shouldn't. We should be able to support. Yeah, so I'll take a breath there.   Michelle (15:40) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Wow, that's incredible story. And I mean, it's it's mind boggling, you know, that, nobody really talks about something that is so prevalent. And I do see that a lot, actually. And it could be the reason why you have unexplained infertility or why transfers don't work. And I speak to Amy Ralph, Amy Ralph, she's a   Caryn Johnson (16:19) Yeah.   Michelle (16:20) she does the same thing, Chinese medicine. And she talks about this a lot. She says, if you miscarry or you have repeated transfer failures with a good embryo and your doctor doesn't look into like what your lining is doing and how your immune system is working, then go to a different doctor because it's so important to look into that because you could spend so much time.   and you can spend so much money and just so many precious years going through so much loss for something that could be treated but can also be prevented. So I'd love to actually get your input on what you've discovered and how the gut relates to it but maybe other things that you've noticed or learned for the listeners.   Caryn Johnson (16:59) Absolutely.   Yeah, absolutely. And I think what you're saying is just incredibly important. Like the immune system, I feel like is the secret starting point to a lot of issues. And what's happening in medicine right now is a lot of women are walking away with an unexplained infertility diagnosis, but they're accepting that as a diagnosis, right? When it's not, it's just, it's not an answer.   And if you look underneath kind of that answer, you see a lot of crazy statistics, such as over 65 % of women who have unexplained infertility actually have an issue in their immune system. And then similarly over 60 % have an issue in their metabolic system. So blood sugar, insulin, know, early signs of PCOS, et cetera. And then.   Michelle (18:05) You   Caryn Johnson (18:10) When you look, you see that there are deep, deep nutrient deficiencies happening in this group of women as well. So you're looking at vitamin D deficiencies, vitamin B deficiencies, magnesium, omegas. All of these start with modulations that occur in the immune system as well. So when you think about it on a deeper level and from the research that I've done,   Michelle (18:23) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm, yeah.   Caryn Johnson (18:39) you're looking at something that's happened to you before it's affecting your hormones and triggering one of these other issues in your reproductive system. So like for instance, not only do I have, you know, autoimmune infertility, I do carry PCOS and adenomyosis as well. And for me, and based on the research that I've done, those are secondary factors.   to my immune system modulating and creating an overly inflammatory environment in my body, which then produced those issues. So we're not going up far enough in the chain of our bodies as to understanding our full systems. And again, it kind of goes back to like what's happening in medicine, which is that our doctors are   Classically trained in our reproductive organs, right? So they know our uterus they know our ovaries they understand how those work, but we need to get into you know, a new phase where we have Practitioners that understand how all of the systems are working together in our body Including our immune system and our endocrine system because they do have such a big and almost starting impact   Michelle (19:57) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Caryn Johnson (20:07) on what's happening with our fertility.   Michelle (20:10) yeah, I completely agree. And I also I'm wondering, like, what have you seen? Because I think that when you talked about the food sensitivities, you were saying that it's okay, I'm allergic to so many things, or I'm sensitive to so many things, but why? So like, what are the things that you've seen that cause it to begin with?   Caryn Johnson (20:28) Yeah.   Yeah. So there are a couple of things that I see as a starting factors. One is overall stress. So if you can't keep your stress in check, you can't keep your cortisol levels in check, then your adrenal function will not perform in the rest of your hormones will not function correctly, which then trickles into some of these other problems. and then you get into other factors like what you're putting in your body.   the nutrition that you have or you don't have. They're saying the American diet is still between 60 and 80 % processed food. So we're putting still mostly junk into our systems that's modulating and creating these environments that we don't want. Number three is dysbiosis of the gut, right? Which is a huge factor in   Michelle (21:13) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Caryn Johnson (21:31) overall well-being and then your chances at fertility because what happens is that if your gut is in dysbiosis, your mucosal lining is disrupted and all of the toxins that are supposed to be in this like, think of it like pipe in your body, piped to get to the outside are now permeating that pipe and moving into your system and causing again, these major inflammation issues.   these, this uproar of immune response that is hard to counteract. You know, once you have that level of bacteria and then toxins that are entering the bloodstream. And then the last kind of reason that you would be kind of in this situation is just based on what's going on in your environment. So are you living in a city, you know,   that a lot of people in Detroit, for instance, there's a bigger rate of infertility there versus, you know, your non-city residents. It's also based on the toxins that enter your home. So are you getting rid of your plastics? Are you looking at the cleaning supplies you're using, the makeup you're putting on your face? It seems simple, but this toxic overload, again,   Michelle (22:52) Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (22:55) creates this inflammatory response, which modulates your immune system. So those are really the four categories that kind of put you in this place. And then it kind of gets into epigenetics, which is like, you know, you've created this new world for yourself that your body has become. And, you know, is it going to be like that or are you going to be able to get yourself out of it?   Michelle (23:23) Yeah. my God. It's so important and it's true. We hear all the different factors and actually those toxins and the endocrine disruptors can be found in food, I mean, through pesticides and that can also impact your gut dysbiosis. so it's just, it's like an entangled web and it really is like a reflection of how we're living today and what's allowed in this country, which   Caryn Johnson (23:38) Yeah.   Yeah.   Michelle (23:50) I'm starting to get more and more frustrated with, you know, the fact that other countries are protecting their citizens more from chemicals and pesticides and things that are harming not only our health and chronic disease, also future. it's, it's unbelievable. And for that reason, I often tell people just go gluten free. It's not that.   Caryn Johnson (23:58) Yeah.   Gosh, get me started on glyphosate. It's so sad.   Mm-hmm.   Michelle (24:16) It's not that wheat is bad. And actually, as a matter of fact, a lot of people don't have those same responses if they go to Spain or Italy, even though it's not considered GMO, they have genetically modified it over the years. So there's so many aspects. So sometimes I'm just like, just remove it, And I see people feeling a lot better.   Caryn Johnson (24:26) Right.   Yeah.   Michelle (24:41) just from that, and especially with autoimmune conditions, actually that like going gluten free can really help. That's what I've seen.   Caryn Johnson (24:50) Yeah, no, definitely. It's just our food source is really sad. And it's just, it's so hard to pinpoint at the end of the day because no one really has the exact answer. But I just like, you see the data, like women who are eating on a Mediterranean diet have a lower risk of endometriosis.   Michelle (24:55) Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (25:15) women who have like vitamin sources through green leafy vegetables don't have as much PMS. So like the correlations are there. It's just like, how do we get people to make better decisions for their body and understand like, don't be me, don't make bad decisions and then get into a position where you can't have the life that you wanted or dreamed of, or you have to fight so hard for it because   Michelle (25:16) Right.   Yes.   Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (25:43) of choices you made earlier in your life from lack of knowledge, you know?   Michelle (25:47) Right. Yeah, totally. And then I also look at the nervous system, which is what you're, I feel like it's really linked to the cortisol issue, like the high stress, because we're constantly being bombarded with too much information. Really, I think too much information that our nervous system is able to translate. And I think that takes a trickle down effect into our bodies. I'm very big on like mind body because of that, you know, like that, that's one aspect, but of course, I mean, there's so many   Caryn Johnson (26:02) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Michelle (26:16) Like I said, it's like a web and every single piece matters. And that's what you were talking about before with medicine, looking at the body as a whole, as a functioning system, rather than just one part.   Caryn Johnson (26:21) you   Right, right. And just going back to your comment on cortisol, you know, a lot of it does start with cortisol because if you put yourself into too high of a cortisol state, your body doesn't produce enough hormones. It basically triggers all of your other hormones to act inappropriately. It goes into your progesterone receptor.   Michelle (27:00) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Caryn Johnson (27:00) pretends it's progesterone and then it goes on your thyroid and says slow down, slow down. Your body doesn't have enough energy for this and your thyroid slows. So it's really like easy to dismiss like, yeah, I'm so stressed but I don't have to be stressed today and to understanding like if your body is in a constant state of stress, like the impact it can truly have on your system and on your hormones because   Michelle (27:27) Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (27:30) I guess also people think of like cortisol is like over here and then estrogen and progesterone as like over here because they work through different axes of the body, right? But it's all related because if you knock one off, you're messing with the others. So I just, I wish people ultimately would understand that cortisol is a huge starting factor to their fertility journey as well.   Michelle (27:38) Mm-hmm.   Right. Yes.   Caryn Johnson (27:57) and to a hormone journey if they're not on the road to fertility.   Michelle (28:02) Yes, because ultimately the body's always going to favor survival. And when you're in high cortisol, your body's basically or something is signaling your body to let it know it's not safe. So when you're constantly in this state of feeling unsafe, your body's going to worry about other things and put off other factors that it would normally pay attention to when you do feel safe.   Caryn Johnson (28:08) Yeah.   Right.   Michelle (28:32) And being in this chronically is just not conducive to high vitality period.   Caryn Johnson (28:32) Right.   Yeah, I feel like at least we're in a better state of mind, like as a world where, you know, 10 years ago it was chic and cool to be like chronically stressed and like drinking like three cups of coffee in the morning and like running yourself ragged. Like I feel like everyone understands a little bit more that they shouldn't. It's just about like knowing your body and actually being able to say to yourself like, no, this isn't how I should.   Michelle (28:52) It's true. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah.   Caryn Johnson (29:09) be feeling. This isn't how I want to keep stress or maintain like my day-to-day life.   Michelle (29:17) No doubt that we are getting educated like never before. like, it's, it's one of those things that when like the information comes out and we start to open our eyes, it's painful because we're realizing things that are not working. However, even though it's painful, it's actually helping us in the long run. And it's kind of like the, blessing and the curse of social media and all of the technology, but the blessing is information.   Caryn Johnson (29:28) Right.   Yeah.   Michelle (29:45) that is very important for us to know it's important for us to receive. So that aspect of it is really important. And then talk to us about your supplement product bond. And I know that you created that based on really your own frustration and it's become your baby. And I want to know what specifically or how does that address autoimmunity conditions for people who are going through that or?   Caryn Johnson (30:03) Yeah.   Michelle (30:14) least thinking maybe to look into their immunity in regards to their fertility, listening to this.   Caryn Johnson (30:21) Yeah, absolutely. So I launched Bond just about a year ago. I concepted it. took a year prior to that from concept to launch.   So really it started in the world of advocacy for me. I was just really looking to help other women getting involved in some Facebook groups, some communities. you know, there's not a lot of knowledge, a lot of people talking about this yet. There certainly wasn't, you know, even just a few years ago. so I, I took a speaking opportunity in Detroit and   I went to Wayne State University, which is where they do a lot of the research for autoimmune infertility. the main head of that clinic asked me to come and speak to the researchers because they do all of this research and it's isolated into their facility. They don't actually see the impact of what's going on with women who are going through this.   Michelle (31:24) Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (31:25) so I got to share my story and, you know, had a really nice day there learning and seeing their facility, their lab, what's going on. And on the drive home is really when it clicked for me that there's a lack of, or there's a gap in what's going on research wise and, know, what's being discussed and what's being carried out and brought to.   the consumer or the public's attention. And I just felt like if I didn't take a larger stand to do something bigger to help women, that we'd be many, many more years behind even. So I went back to my house in Chicago, sat in my basement and did just clinical research for months. And I logged over 300 clinical studies, all centered around   the immune system and how it relates to hormones to the reproductive system and built my thinking for original skews, which were, which are daily balance, which is our best seller conception boost, vitality, and cycle care on this thinking first. so it really started with research before it was brought forward to healthcare practitioners and then formulated out.   And a lot of the research that went into each of the products is above and beyond supporting the reproductive organs. So when you look at daily balance as a whole, it has 15 vitamins and nutrients in it. And a lot of those vitamins and nutrients were chosen to not only support hormone balance, but to take that up a level and to support the immune system as it relates to being a predecessor to hormone balance. So   adding a vitamin D, which is a huge hormone regulator, putting fiber, five grams of it into a supplement so that women are potentially protecting their gut lining better and producing those short chain fatty acids that are going to protect their gut in a way that just probiotics don't. Adding in a probiotic blend that   we studied as being healthy strains, or not healthy strains, but strains from healthy fertile women. So really focusing on these immune factors and how they pull into the world of fertility. But to the public now, you know, almost simplifying that message and making it more of like the underlying theme because we're still not necessarily totally there.   so the ingredients exists in these formulas with so much thinking and thought as it relates to the whole body. and then the formulas come out and, they're focused on hormone balance, right? As well as we have a conception product, and then we have our cycle care product, which is focused on, PMS support. So PMS, symptom alleviation, and then hormone detoxification.   Michelle (34:16) Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (34:44) So they all have an immune angle, also address a hormonal need.  And the other great thing too is that you can shop at a discount as a special thanks for listening to us here. You can head over to the link. We'll link it here with this podcast episode and use the code, the wholesome to get 20 % off your order.     Michelle (34:54) Awesome. And do you have information on your site, just like support for people wanting to learn more?   Caryn Johnson (35:00) Yeah.   Yeah, absolutely. we're starting to add more and more to our site. I wrote a white paper on how the microbiome affects fertility that you can download off of our website as well to get more information. And yeah, we share a lot on social too with, you know, article connections there. So that's another great way to keep up with kind of like up and coming research that we're seeing.   Michelle (35:32) Mm-hmm.   Caryn Johnson (35:33) But yeah, I would say too, just going back to one other thing you mentioned earlier on the, on the doctor front, the best thing to do as a consumer, like when you're hitting these issues is to bring the articles in and show them to your doctor and choose advocacy for yourself. Because I found that the response from them is far greater when you have data in your hands as to why you want to.   Michelle (35:51) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Caryn Johnson (36:03) add a supplement, think about a different form of medication, think about a different program that might make sense for your system. So I would say, you know, that is as important as ever. And, you know, what we try to do more and more is link that PIMD article, like when we post something so that you can find the actual source and see for yourself, you know?   Michelle (36:24) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Caryn Johnson (36:31) read the information and make smart decisions.   Michelle (36:31) Mm-hmm.   I love that. That's great. I'm all about empowerment. think that we need a lot of that now. So this is great information. I really appreciate you sharing your story for people listening. And for people who want to find you and learn more, how can they find you?   Caryn Johnson (36:41) Yeah.   Thank   Sure, so our website is bond.life. Our Instagram is underscore bond life and we're, you know, a newer company. I'm still really involved on our social. So we love to take DMs and interact with people one-on-one that way. If you have any questions or want to get into, you know, what you might be experiencing and what our different products are, like we're happy to get into it with you and.   I will say for anyone that wants to shop on bond on our website, absolutely love to support you. And again, really the place to start with, with us is our daily balance product. has the baseline of nutritionals you need to support your   nutrients stores, your hormonal balance, and of course, your immune system. that is our purple bag on the website there. But Michelle, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate this opportunity.   Michelle (37:57) Yeah, it was great having you on and having this conversation, which I feel like is so important because it is kind of like the big question mark that a lot of people are facing when they're trying to conceive. So thank you so much for coming on.   Caryn Johnson (38:09) Yeah, you're welcome.        

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Sonia Ribas @soniaribascoach shares her journey from a marketing executive to a fertility coach, emphasizing the importance of holistic approaches to fertility. She discusses common challenges faced by individuals trying to conceive, the often unnecessary reliance on IVF, and the critical role of personalized treatment plans. Sonia highlights the impact of oxidative stress on fertility and the significance of mindfulness and community support in the fertility journey. Her insights aim to empower individuals and couples navigating the complexities of fertility.   Takeaways:   Sonia transitioned from a marketing executive to a fertility coach after discovering her passion for holistic health. Many individuals seek help too late in their fertility journey, often after failed IVF attempts. Statistically, 50% of IVF cases may not be necessary, highlighting the need for proper preparation. A holistic approach to fertility considers physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual factors. Oxidative stress negatively impacts egg and sperm quality, making lifestyle changes essential. Personalization in treatment is crucial; what works for one person may not work for another. Mindfulness practices can help manage stress, which can be harmful to fertility health. Community support is vital; many women feel isolated in their fertility struggles. Education and actionable steps are key components of effective fertility coaching.   Guest Bio:   Sonia Ribas, MBA, HHC, RYT Sonia is a sought-after LA based Fertility Coach and a Mom of 3. In her last 15+ years, she has successfully coached thousands of couples struggling to conceive. Her highly personalized, transformational and integrative lifestyle-based approach, which covers everything from nutrition to wellbeing, makes her an expert guide in her clients' path towards Parenthood. She helps couples 1on1, in groups and in collaboration with Fertility Clinics around the world, in order to help patients boost their fertility from every possible angle and maximize their chance of conceiving, both naturally and via IVF.   Besides helping couples conceive healthy babies, she is a wellness educator and extremely passionate about inspiring people around the world to lead healthy lifestyles. She constantly collaborates with International lifestyle media outlets and companies as a consultant, speaker, educator and expert Health Coach.    You can find her at soniaribas.com and on Social Media @soniaribascoach.     For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Check out Michelle's latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Sonia.   Sonia Ribas (00:02) Thank you so much, Michelle.   Michelle (00:04) Yes, I would love for you to share your story of how you got into this work that you do.   Sonia Ribas (00:11) Okay. Yeah, let's go for it. So I always say, sometimes you find things in life. Sometimes things find you. In my case, fertility found me. So in my previous life, as I like to call it, I was marketing executive and director for multinationals. And then I found yoga and I fell in love with hot yoga at the time to the point that I left my job and I went travel the world.   and I created one of the first online yoga studios in the world. And as I was doing that, yeah. And I was, was doing that occasionally. I was also teaching private sessions and, I was living in Boston at that time and I had a client who was originally from India and she was my yoga student and she was great. And then she was relocated back to India. And then she called me and she said,   Michelle (00:45) cool.   Sonia Ribas (01:06) Hey, my OBGYN says I'm not going to be able to have children and I'm devastated. And I was like, wow. And she said, you're the only person I trust. And I was like, well, wait a second. Like I'm not a fertility person, you know? Like I'm into healthy lifestyle. I'm a yoga instructor. I know a thing or two about these things because I follow it, but not fertility. And she said, Sonia, you're the only person I trust. So.   Michelle (01:32) Wow.   Sonia Ribas (01:33) This is 15 years ago. So I teamed up with my mother, who's a traditional Chinese doctor in Spain. And we teamed up together and we put together a holistic program. That was the very, very first version of what I do today. And, you know, we created meditation videos, yoga videos, lots of herbs, supplements, diet, lots of mindset tools and things like that. Things that we were coming up with. And I did a lot of research as well.   to understand, you know, I'm a research nerd, so to understand what works, what's proven, et cetera. So we created the first version for her and her labs improved a lot and she got pregnant naturally. So her OBGYN in India started referring people my way.   Michelle (02:16) All right.   Sonia Ribas (02:22) So yeah, the rest is history. So I started informally doing fertility coaching without being certified. My mom was helping me, but at some point my mom said, you know, I have a full practice in Spain. I think it's time for you to go on your own. So this was 15 years ago. So obviously fast forward, I got certified. I became a health coach and I got a lot of certificates in medicine and women's health and a lot more. And then   I started practicing fertility coaching 15 years ago, then I had three kids of my own. So I perfected my method with obviously my own experience. And yeah, by now we've helped make more than a thousand babies.   Michelle (03:08) Amazing, that's incredible. So cool.   So what are some of the common things that you see when people come to you for fertility? Like some of the common stories that people share on their journey I know that's a big question, but whatever comes first.   Sonia Ribas (03:27) Totally. So what I wish I would see, first I'm going to tell you what I wish and then the reality is, because sometimes it helps understand what I wish I would see is I wish I would see more people come earlier. So I always use the analogy of a wedding, know, the same way as you prepare for a wedding. And if you think I'm going to get married, you don't just show up in your sweatpants at your wedding, right? You prepare, you get a dress, you prepare a set, you know, you get the whole thing going.   Michelle (03:41) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Sonia Ribas (03:57) I wish it would be the same for having a baby because there's a lot of things that we would prepare in advance. There wouldn't be so many headaches and so many heartaches. Now, the reality is that I see people when they're on the desperate side, when they've been trying for a while and it has the journeys longer than they anticipated or when they've been told IBF is their only option.   Michelle (04:14) Mm-hmm.   Sonia Ribas (04:23) or even worse when they've tried IVF or IUI and it didn't work and then they come to me as a better alternative, more empowered version to get pregnant.   Michelle (04:35) And you say you had mentioned that you think that many times in many cases, people don't really need IVF. What has your experience been with that?   Sonia Ribas (04:46) So statistically, 50 % of IVF cases are not needed. So that right there tells you what happens, right? So a lot of people are thrown into IVF because that's the nature of the Western medical approach to fertility. In some cases, it works. In many cases, it doesn't work. And when it doesn't work, most of the times it's because the person was unprepared or the couple was unprepared or because it was not needed.   So I always say, I always use the analogy of a car. So if your car doesn't work, what do you do? You take it to the mechanic and the mechanic tries to jumpstart the battery. So that's IVF. IVF is jumpstarting your system. You might or might not be ready for it. It might or it might not work, but the process is very expensive, very invasive, and it has side effects potentially for the rest of your life. So it's not something to take lightly.   Michelle (05:19) Mm-hmm.   Sonia Ribas (05:42) It's not like, hey, I'm going to get my whatever. It's not like I'm going to get my teeth cleaned. No, it's an invasive thing. So what I say is going back to the analogy of the car, if your car doesn't work, you can take it to the mechanic, you can open the motor and have a look. Clean whatever needs to be cleaned, repair whatever needs to be repaired so that when you try to switch it on, it will switch on without being jump-started. It will switch on natural.   So this is what we do here. And I always say to people, hey, if down the line, it hasn't happened naturally and you want to continue trying IVF, by that time you'll be ready. Look, I always go back to statistics. IVF without preparation is about a 20 % success rate. IVF with the proper preparation and optimizing your system is an 85 % success rate. So if you're going to throw yourself into this process,   At least prepare yourself so you can optimize your chances of success.   Michelle (06:46) And what are some of the things that you see that people need when they come to you? Like, What are some of the more common things that you see?   Sonia Ribas (06:56) So we here, we leave no stone unturned because everybody needs a combination of factors and everybody is really different. So for some people, it's more the physical side. For other people, it's more the mental, the past traumas, the blockages, the limiting beliefs energetically. So we leave no stone unturned. We cover everything from the physical layer, the mental, the emotional, the energetic, and the spiritual layer. So we have a holistic approach.   to fertility, which I love your podcast is wholesome because we use that word all the time as well.   Michelle (07:31) Yes, for sure. mean, there's so many different layers. Some of the things that I personally see is a lot of people are given diagnosis and I guess in the journey, it's very easy to get a lot of limiting labels thrown at you. And I really say thrown at you. mean, I was one of them. had my own issues with my menstrual cycle.   growing up, but not realizing that I had other option. And I think that a lot of times is that people don't realize that they have options and they don't realize or aren't really told along the way, unless they find the right person, that there are alternatives and things that they could do to improve their state. I think that that was, that's the biggest hurdle is just really not even knowing anything else exists.   Sonia Ribas (08:25) Absolutely. Yeah, so a lot of the things we do is education because people obviously you don't know and people go to Dr. Google, which is probably the last thing you should be doing because it's nerve-wracking. So we do a lot of education, but we step a lot into action. We're very, very action and results oriented. I always say to my clients, we are here for transformation. And if we are here for transformation, we need to combine information,   plus action. So everything we offer here is very, very action oriented, whether it's on the diet side and we roll up our sleeves and we create personalized diets for our clients. But also, for example, on the movement side, we give them a lot of tools. Like it's not just, go move and go exercise, but we give them a lot of exercise videos, yoga videos, strength training, like all the tools they can actually go and implement with real actionables.   Michelle (09:24) And when you talked about percentage of improvement for IVF, if you're prepared versus not prepared, is that anything specific to your work or something that you've seen? How do you base that?   Sonia Ribas (09:38) No. Yeah. So that's kind of like statistics that we draw in our practice. mean, the fact that IVF is around a 20 % success rate is known. That's not something that I've decided. That's something that's published. Obviously, it depends on the age brackets and all that, but we can call it an average. And then what I see is I have a lot of people who've tried IVF, and they come my way after a number of failed rounds of IVF.   Michelle (09:43) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Sonia Ribas (10:06) And then we can draw statistics of like, from these people, how many people then have a successful IVF after? And it's about 85%.   Michelle (10:13) Yeah, that's awesome. it's good to know. I'm curious because I'm a little bit of a numbers nerd myself and I like to kind of get like data and I hearing just things even with like studies and so kind of jogged my curiosity. That's awesome and I agree. I do Chinese medicine. I also do fertility coaching, but ultimately,   Sonia Ribas (10:19) Me too.   Michelle (10:35) when you do make these changes in your lifestyle, you really can optimize a lot of your wellbeing, but it's almost like you're the way I see it is you're triggering an anti-aging because that's really what fertility is. It's kind of like anti-aging treatment. If you think about it, it's the same thing. It's just really optimizing your health, optimizing your mitochondria and your body's energy so that it's able to   Sonia Ribas (10:52) Right? Yes.   Michelle (11:02) produce, reproduce, but that's ultimately like turning back the clock, which we can actually do. something that you can actually do with lifestyle, which is why I find it so empowering in general. I find that a lot of people also feel that it's not just empowering for conceiving, but it's empowering as they get older as well.   Sonia Ribas (11:12) Yes.   Yes, yes, exactly. So what we do here is reverse the effects of oxidative stress. So as you say, it's kind of like the anti-aging version of fertility.   Michelle (11:36) And what are some of the things that you find or some of the ways you approach that just for people listening that are curious, like, cause some people know, you know, that that can impact equality as we age, oxidative stress gets higher, but some people might not, you know, it might be like new terms if they're just listening to this now and they're first starting this journey. so let's kind of break it down for the listeners if they're hearing this and why it's so impactful for   not just egg quality, but for sperm quality as well.   Sonia Ribas (12:09) Yes, there's a massive difference though. obviously as you age, oxidative stress happens. It's the byproduct of being alive. It's funny because my dad always said, you know, when my dad drinks or something and I say, hey, dad, this kills you. He says, you know what? Living kills me. Being alive means that you are subject to the process of oxidative stress. Everybody's subject to that. Now there's a difference between egg and sperm. Eggs,   Michelle (12:27) Mm-hmm.   Sonia Ribas (12:38) You are born with your set of eggs. I cannot take out your eggs and replace them. They are there. We can do a lot of things to optimize their functioning, optimize their quality. As you said, optimize the mitochondria and make them fitter and stronger and better working, but they're the same. Now, sperm on the other side is regenerated all the time. The sperm that's ejaculated today is not the sperm that will be ejaculated tomorrow or in three weeks.   That's why it's a lot easier. In my experience, it's a lot easier to improve sperm quality than egg quality. But we can work on both and we definitely have great success on both. But every time that I get a couple that have a combination of factors, I always look at the male and I say, okay, you're on the lucky side. If you do this program, I can guarantee for sure that your sperm will improve no matter what.   Michelle (13:39) So let's talk about the egg quality and how oxidative stress impacts the egg quality and like what people can do, generally speaking to improve their quality of eggs.   Sonia Ribas (13:44) Okay, yeah.   Okay, great. So how it impacts egg quality is, well, it's in a number of ways, but primarily two very strong ways. One of them is genetically. It affects the DNA structure of your cells, including the DNA structure of your eggs. So when your eggs produce embryos, it might be that the embryos are genetically not normal. So that's when we see genetic things happen, even not viable.   So that's one thing that happened. The other thing that is very visible that happens is that the mitochondria, which is the energy factories of the cells, get affected. So they're not as strong. This is why we recommend supplements like CoQ10, for example, to boost the functioning of the mitochondria. Now, what do we do holistically in this program to optimize that quality? It's one of my favorite topics in the world. Thanks for asking me that. So it's a holistic approach.   We boost fertility, we boost equality from every possible angle, everything lifestyle-based and everything is research-based here. So everything we offer here has been proven at some point by research papers. So we work on 15 factors. So my program is 15 modules plus a bonus module, that's male factor. So for 15 modules, we deep dive into 15 areas of your lifestyle.   that need to be optimized because they're strictly related to fertility. So if you optimize those areas of your lifestyle, you are boosting your fertility and your egg quality no matter what. And those are, there's a physical layer, there's a mental layer, emotional layer, energetic layer, and spiritual layer. So we combine things like diet, hydration, supplements, weight management, movement. We talk about inner dialogue, emotions.   cortisol, stress, everything that happens related to your stress hormones, sleep patterns, circadian rhythms, your relationships, your toxic relationships, your conflict, your libido, your sex drive, your relationship, your connection to your partner, environmental toxins, empowerment, your connection to your inner power, limiting beliefs, empowering self-affirmations, meditations, cycle syncing. also do   sit cycling, and then connecting to your group. So I think it's very important. And that's something we never talk about, which is like, can throw a lot of things at you. But if we don't find your version of what I'm talking about, it's not going to work. So that's why it's very important, the concept of bio-individuality, which means a person's food is another person's poison. Right?   Michelle (16:34) Yeah, it's true.   100%.   Sonia Ribas (16:45) Everything needs to be personalized to you because we are here to deliver results for you, not for your neighbor. So what works for your neighbor and your cousin might be very different. Some people have night shifts. Some people have preferences on food. Some people have cravings. Some people turn to different things to deal with emotions. Some people have past trauma, most of us. Like all of this is very, very personal. So what I'm very fascinated about and obsessed about is   Michelle (16:53) my god, so true.   Sonia Ribas (17:15) How do we go in the trenches with our clients? How do we help them land all the recommendations into their real life so that we can truly move the needle for them?   Michelle (17:28) Yeah, I love that. It's so true because that is something that I often see is, especially when they first come to us because they're like, you know, my best friend, she also struggled with fertility. She tried this herb and it helped her. And I wanted to try it too, or somebody else tried DHEA, which is a hormone and I want to try it too. And it is a hormone and it is something that I always recommend never take anything like that.   unless you get tested and see what's going on in your body. Because for one person, it could be amazing. It could be a game changer. But if your body has a completely different makeup and imbalance of hormones, it can actually be detrimental. So I'm really glad that you brought that up because everybody's so unique. literally are like, our bodies are like fingerprints. And I love that saying one man's food is another man's poison. It's 100 % true.   Like somebody can thrive, actually dairy has been shown to help with many women who are trying to conceive full fat. It's been shown in studies. I'm also a nerd with that. Like I love that because it's true. Like then you could see, okay, for the majority, yeah, it can actually be really beneficial. However, if you have a dairy sensitivity or an allergy or it causes more inflammation, or as in Chinese medicine, we look at like dampness.   which is an element, I'm sure your mom has taught you about that. Then if that's the case, that would not be great for that particular person. it's so important for people to realize that, yes, you listen to podcasts and you read about it and you go down like Dr. Google, as you said, and you can learn a lot of things. However, your body is so unique and your body needs a customized plan.   Sonia Ribas (19:03) Thanks.   Yes, absolutely. And even a step further, your body today is different than your body in two weeks because you are a woman and you are in the waves of your menstrual cycle. So if you're ovulating today, you'll feel strong, you'll feel energetic, you'll feel social. And in two weeks, as you're about to menstruate, you'll feel like a completely different person.   Michelle (19:33) Yes, that's true.   Sonia Ribas (19:52) And that's something I like to talk about because I get a lot of men kind of like asking me how true this is, how is PMS real? Is she making it up? you know, they just, because they're flat, they don't understand the fluctuations of hormones. And I do a lot of education on that, on cycle syncing, how this is real and how life is a lot easier if you serve the waves of your cycle.   instead of fighting it or instead of just acting as if it doesn't exist.   Michelle (20:24) Totally. I call that just kind of personal flow. In Chinese medicine, we do a lot of like physical flow with the meridians and our qi. But when we have flow in our life, that's really what it looks like. It's really understanding, not fighting, kind of going with that, riding those waves. So yeah, I totally agree.   Awesome. And so what are some of the, love talking also about the mind and how stress can impact our bodies. I understand this from a Chinese medicine perspective. I also, we know that when we're in fight or flight, basically the energy rich blood rich areas are going to be our arms and legs or limbs so that we can either fight or run. And it takes it away from our vital organs and including the uterus. So   let's talk about that. Let's talk about how stress can impact fertility and why it's so important to address that aspect of ourselves.   Sonia Ribas (21:27) Okay. I love, this is one of my favorite topics. So when it comes to stress, I always say there's two kinds of stress. There's useful stress and there's chronic stress, which is not useful. So stress is a natural response and it's actually very useful response to danger and to situations in life that need for you to be pumped with certain hormones called disall adrenaline to react.   Like if there's a lion about to chase me, I need to experience stress so that I can react and save my life, right? I need to run or hide or something, right? So that's useful. And in certain situations in life, that's very useful. Now we have in our modern society normalized a stressful feeling to the point that because we have deadlines, have infertility problems, we have a lot of things going on.   Our body is constantly in alert as if a lion's about to chase me every five minutes. So that's called chronic stress and that is highly inflammatory. So if you feel you're having that, which you probably are because we pretty much all have that, you need to find ways to release that cortisol. You know, because otherwise we have what we call a cortisol intoxication or a cortisol overload.   And cortisol is highly inflammatory, even excess. So you need to find ways to release it. And this is where we step into action. So for me, for example, I need to go workout to release stress. If I don't move, I can meditate and things like that, but it's not going to be the same as sweating it out. So I do hot yoga. Hot yoga is my thing. Right. For other people, it's different, you know, there's a lot of different ways. So.   Michelle (23:10) I love hot yoga. Yeah.   Sonia Ribas (23:19) If workout works for you, great. Meditation also works for a lot of people. And if you're not meditating, I get a lot of people tell me, that's not for me. Give it a chance because meditation does not need to be a full hour in Tibet. It can be 10 minutes, five minutes sitting on your bed and just like focus on your breath, diaphragmatic breathing. As you inhale, expand your belly.   As you exhale, you contract your belly and you connect to your breath. And that in itself sends your brain signal of, am safe. And you can activate your parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest. And that's where your reproductive function thrives. If, however, you're activating your sympathetic nervous system, which is your fight or flight, then your reproductive function won't be favorized.   Michelle (24:05) Yes.   Sonia Ribas (24:13) because your body will only favorize the functions that are essential for survival.   Michelle (24:19) Absolutely.   Sonia Ribas (24:20) So another way that I always tell people to activate your parasympathetic nervous system, so to release stress, is hugging. Hugging, a long hug, also does that. Also sends that signal to your brain of, am safe, I escaped the lion, everything's good. So that also works really well. And also hot and cold therapy.   So if you're stressed and you're like, my God, I don't know what to do with myself, go take a cold shower or a hot shower or combine both or take ice water or make yourself a hot tea. Like hot and cold therapy are very good as a way to release cortisol as well.   Michelle (25:06) Interesting. Yeah. mean, there's the cold plunges. There's I'm trying to look into that as far as fertility goes. Possibly might be good for men, but I'm not sure about women quite yet. Trying to do the research on that, but I do agree. Maybe it's kind of like that initial kind of shift from one state to another that sort of breaks up the stagnation.   Sonia Ribas (25:29) Yeah, it's the shocker. I knew you're going to say that because obviously in the traditional Chinese medicine, we don't want to be cold. And I grew up this way. You always want to be on the warmer side. I remember when my mom did her internship in Beijing, it was super hot, like 110 degrees. And everybody was drinking hot tea 24-7. And she was calling me like, I don't know if I can do this, like, hot tea.   Michelle (25:31) It's a shock, yeah.   Yes.   Yeah.   Sonia Ribas (26:00) But yeah, I know very well that that's a tradition. I grew up with that. And for me, cold water is a problem too. But what I do is I shock my system and I do hot, cold, hot, cold, and I always end with hot because I cannot walk out of my shower feeling cold. But I do think shocker.   Michelle (26:17) Yes, and also the shower is not as extreme as some of these cold plunges.   Sonia Ribas (26:22) That's true. That's true. Yeah, I do think the combination though is very, very interesting. But as we said, hey, bio individual.   Michelle (26:28) Right. It's like the yin and yang. We're kind of forcing a yin and yang balance in some way. Yeah.   Sonia Ribas (26:33) Exactly. Yeah. And also, you know, try it out. Like I always say to people, don't take my word for anything. Everything we talk about, try it out for yourself and see it in your own body, how it feels. Find your own version.   Michelle (26:44) Yeah, that's right. Totally. And I think that our bodies are just so intelligent and we're made of this intelligence and it always speaks to us. It speaks to us with food. It will guide you if you're really connecting with it, which is why I love meditation so much because it really brings us an awareness to that communication. It bridges, it almost like builds this neuron, this connection between us and our bodies.   that maybe we've ignored for so long and sort of forgot really was there. That's why I love mindfulness. But also what I love about really becoming mindful and meditation is it teaches us to become aware of our body. we can catch ourselves if we're getting too stressed out about certain things, we can catch ourselves and realize, hey, I'm not actually in danger right now.   and of realize that, and that mindfulness is what is kind of on guard to check, you know, your situation.   Sonia Ribas (27:50) Absolutely. I love that you're saying that. I love mindfulness. In my program, we call it heartfulness, actually, because it's all the mindfulness principles of being aware of what you're doing, of your surroundings, being very much there. But I call it heartfulness because I like to shift the focus from here, because we spend so much time here, to here. How does it feel? How does it feel to be here now?   Michelle (27:56) Ooh, I love that.   Yes.   Sonia Ribas (28:19) Okay, you're noticing everything, mindfulness and the added touch of the heart, the feeling, the savoring. I feel we need more savoring and we need to be more connected to that concept of savoring in life. And that's one of the things that I preach all the time.   Michelle (28:38) I love that because it's almost like bringing romance back into life, right? Cause it's like those moments, just savoring those moments and bringing more romance, which really, does that do? It's like infusing meaning into the moment. And there's more meaning, there's more richness. And if you think about just kind of how we used to live, I think of like, I don't know, a street in Paris where people are just sitting a lot longer to talk and eat and take their time and really tasting everything.   Sonia Ribas (28:42) I love that. Yeah, totally.   Michelle (29:05) I think that when you're doing that, you're really infusing kind of that chi life force energy into your moments in life, which ultimately I think impact your body.   Sonia Ribas (29:16) Yes, and fertility is about that. Fertility, a concept for me of fertility, the essence of boosting fertility is adding that boost of life into your life. More grace, more flow, more enjoying, more savoring, more being here, more embracing, empowering yourself.   Michelle (29:29) I love that.   Yeah, I love that. That's so true. mean, really, ultimately that's it's just a richness. It's kind of like living in an energy rich state, which ultimately, mean, that's it's kind of like just energy being really efficient and thriving through your body. And that's when your cup overflows, you're able to bring more life forth. And that's yeah. Also, I think that also when you're working in this work,   You start to see patterns and you start to see how clearly what's crazy about it is that in order to reproduce, we need all this energy, but like the fertility journey on its own can be so taxing and draining, which is why it's important to have somebody who understands it to guide you and to help you with that ultimately. And, or even a community or friends or connecting with others going through it, because I think that helps as well.   having that sense of support.   Sonia Ribas (30:37) Absolutely. Absolutely. You don't need to go through this alone. I think that some things in life are meant for you to do alone, some things are not. And fertility is definitely not one of them. I am always shocked when I read statistics that about 63 % of women with fertility problems never talk about it with anyone. It totally breaks my heart.   Michelle (30:47) Yeah.   That's sad. Yeah. see it too. mean, people, when they first come to my office, they're like, they feel so relieved. They're like, I can't really talk about this. Even with my husband sometimes, I'll say.   Sonia Ribas (31:09) Totally. Yeah, totally. They're so scared of ruining their marriage if they talk about it. And in my program, we combine private coaching with group coaching. And I have a lot of people at the beginning of the program who are unsure about the group coaching at the beginning. And they're like, I'm not sure, you know, it's kind of private. Then they give it a go. And then by the end of the program, when they give me feedbacks, I always ask for feedback at the end. They say, my God, the group sessions were the best. It's a group.   They call it a mouth hug. And feeling seen, feeling validated by women who are in the same season in life is so, so therapeutic.   Michelle (31:39) Yes. Yeah.   my God, yes, I've seen the same thing and I've seen people in the programs connecting and having lifelong relationships because afterwards I'll find out they're still in touch and it's amazing. Yeah, it's really, and I think that also we're meant to meet the right people at the right time, even people going through the same journey and they become really like lifelong friends.   Sonia Ribas (31:59) I think.   Exactly, exactly. Those people were meant to cross paths and to continue some journeys together. Absolutely.   Michelle (32:19) Yes, awesome. So if somebody's hearing this, is there like a word or a sentence or some kind of inspiring tip that you can provide? Somebody's going through it right now, going through the fertility journey and obviously going through the struggles that we all know are very real.   Sonia Ribas (32:37) Yes. So I think that my summary for today is you don't need to do this alone, especially this week. I'm very sensitive to this because I've seen a lot of people who have chosen to do this on their own and to continue struggling on their own. it totally breaks my heart. So in terms of your chances of success, in terms of how enjoyable this will be in terms of your own journey and your own experience, don't you ever think you need to do this alone? You know, there's help out there that can make it so much better for you.   and embrace it.   Michelle (33:10) Awesome. And so if people are hearing this and they want to find out more about you, how can they find you?   Sonia Ribas (33:16) Okay. So the two ways, easier ways to find me is my website, sonyarebus.com and my Instagram page, which is Sonia rebus coach.   Michelle (33:27) Awesome. So Sonia, thank you so much for coming on. I have all your information on the episode notes if anybody wants to find it. And this is a great conversation. I love that you're really into empowering couples. And ultimately, I think that that is so needed in this world. So thank you so much for coming on today.   Sonia Ribas (33:50) Thanks for having me, Michelle.    

Welcome to The Wholesome Fertility Podcast! Today, I'm addressing an important topic that has come up frequently in my office: fertility-friendly lubricants. Many people don't realize that certain lubricants can negatively affect sperm movement and reduce the chances of conception.   In this episode, I discuss the common issue of vaginal dryness, especially when using fertility medications like Clomid or Letrozole, and how this can be an added challenge for those trying to conceive. I also explore natural ways to boost cervical mucus production, including staying hydrated and making dietary adjustments to improve moisture levels in the body. Additionally, I'll be highlighting fertility-friendly lubricant brands such as Pre-Seed and Good Clean Love, and why choosing products that mimic natural cervical mucus is so crucial.    If you're trying to conceive, this information will help you optimize your chances and ensure you're not unknowingly using something that could hinder your fertility.   Takeaways: Avoid harmful lubricants: Most standard lubricants can be toxic to sperm or slow their movement, which can impact conception. Natural cervical mucus is ideal: Keeping hydrated and consuming foods rich in omega-3s and antioxidants like vitamin C can help increase your body's natural moisture levels. Fertility-friendly lubricants to consider: Products like Pre-Seed, Good Clean Love, and Premom are formulated to be sperm-friendly and closely mimic natural cervical mucus. Vaginal dryness and medications: Fertility medications such as Clomid and Letrozole may cause dryness, making it important to find safe solutions that support sperm health.     Check out Michelle's latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   [00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Today I'm going to be talking about something that I have not talked about yet, but it is an important topic because I've had a lot of people in my office come in and ask me about the specific topic. And a lot of times it is very important when it comes to fertility because People often don't realize that there are certain things that can actually be harming your fertility. So stay tuned because you're not going to want to miss this. So today I'm going to be talking about lubricants. This is actually a very common thing that people use lubricants and they don't realize that the majority of lubricants are actually not great for sperm. They're either toxic for sperm or they can impact how the sperm travels and slow down the traveling and fertilization of the egg. [00:01:00] So when it comes to fertility. It's a completely different ballgame, and it's really important to choose lubricants, if necessary, that are sperm friendly. So today I will be talking all about that. So first of all, I wanted to start out by saying, talking about why women can be dry, and sometimes it really is a cervical mucus thing, and And where it comes to cervical mucus, there are definitely things that you can do to impact cervical mucus naturally, but not just cervical mucus. It's also when taking certain fertility medications such as Clomid or Letrozole, those two medications can impact vaginal dryness as well. And this can be extremely frustrating when people are trying to conceive and women are having to have the difficulty and discomfort of vaginal dryness. And at the same time also timed [00:02:00] intercourse. So it kind of puts a whole other challenge to the whole challenging situation to begin with.   So according to fertility and sterility, Vaginal dryness has actually been reported in about at least 46 percent of all reproductive aged women, which is actually really high considering. So this is really important because when it comes to baby making, it's really important that a woman feels comfortable because if a woman is dry, it can cause more irritation. It can even cause bleeding. And we don't want that because when that's the case, then you're feeling more stress in really trying to conceive. So many times people will want to find lubricants and they'll find things that are over the counter or certain products that they don't realize are actually harming the sperm. So they're using this and I've had people come in and say that they've dealt with it. the discomforts of vaginal dryness[00:03:00] and didn't really realize, but for the whole time they've been trying and sometimes it's close to a year they've been using lubricants that are not necessarily great for the sperm and didn't even realize it. So this is why I find it so important in the podcast and in general to give information to people because many times nobody really tells you this stuff. You really think that, okay, what's the big deal? It shouldn't make a difference, but it really does. And the same thing also with figuring out the fertile window. All of these things are typically not things that you learn, not in school and oftentimes not even at the doctor's office. So it is really important to understand your body and understand really like how to optimize your fertile window and how to optimize your chances of conceiving and what those certain things are that can impact. that process. So like mentioned before, [00:04:00] a lot of these lubricants can impact sperm movement and impact how sperm is able to fertilize. And this can obviously be an issue because the sperm needs something that's similar to the cervical mucus, which is why the cervical mucus is so important because it It protects the sperm, but it also is created in a beautiful way to allow the sperm to move as fast as possible and most efficiently so that it is able to get to the egg and fertilize for conception.   Another thing that you want to look at is pH levels and if there's any chemicals in the lubricants that are harmful to sperm. So, ideally, you really want your own body's natural lubricant, which is cervical mucus. And there are a couple of things that you can do to improve that. And then I'll go over some other alternatives if that is not [00:05:00] working. But really what you want to do is increase your, in Chinese medicine speak, yin. Estrogen is a really important hormone in that process during the follicular phase that leads up to ovulation because estrogen is a very yin hormone. Yin is an aspect of the yin and yang that is more moist, more cooling, more feminine. So we want to bring in more moisture and we want to make sure that the body holds in that moisture. So there are definitely things that you can do to improve that and the first thing and it's the most obvious thing and I've seen it be the single handedly like the easiest way for people to improve cervical mucus is hydration. You would be shocked At how important it is to just hydrate because cervical mucus is majority is water. It really consists of water. And so if somebody is dehydrated and I've had a lot of people in the healthcare industry[00:06:00] that come in as patients, they just say they don't have time to drink. And I really push them on this because eventually they can actually shift that. It's just easier not to drink. So it's not that you can't drink. It's just that it. Tends to be easier and then it becomes a bad habit. So a lot of these people that are nurses, a lot of people that are dentists that are in the healthcare field don't really feel like they have an option. I work with them on that and they do change that. So it is possible. Anything's possible.   It's just a matter of putting a little more effort to get in the habit. We're just have water with you to just ensure that you're having it and also having water in the morning. , listen, you know, it might be a little inconvenient to have to go to the bathroom a couple of times extra, but it is really important and it really can impact your cervical mucus in a huge way. I've had people that have noticed vaginal dryness and that they've also had many times where [00:07:00]they were not seeing the same kind of cervical mucus that they used to see when they were younger. And all they did was increase the hydration. and that within a couple of months really shifted things and they started to see it. They actually saw when they wiped that they had more cervical mucus and more like egg white consistency on the peak days. So that is actually a very easy way to do this. And as a rule of thumb, you want to take whatever your weight is in pounds, take that number, divide that in half, and that amount in ounces is what you want you know, to drink every day. So say you're 120 pounds. So divide that by half, that's 60. So you take 60 ounces per day is the rule of thumb of water. And ideally you have that in containers that are not plastic. So either glass or stainless steel. And then also make sure to filter that [00:08:00] water. So you know, just kind of a side note, I always talk about that with my patients. So that's really, really important is to increase hydration and part of hydration also is not just water is from time to time to make sure that you're getting electrolytes as well. You also want healthy carbohydrates. So carbohydrates can also help and carbs can help the yin aspect of our body. So it helps your body absorb and , keep itself hydrated. So that you're able to retain a little bit more water because that water is important to retain in order to hydrate your body in many different ways, including cervical mucus. Another really important vitamin that impacts cervical mucus is actually vitamin C. And you can also increase citrus fruits in your diet. This is something that has been shown to improve. cervical mucus. So these are things that you want to do naturally. Ideally, if you could do things naturally, then you're using your own body's [00:09:00] natural lubricant, which is optimized for sperm health and to protect sperm and to help the chances of conception. So ideally you want to try to get it where your body's doing this. Another important antioxidant is vitamin E as well. And that can help regulate estrogen in your body.   You also want to get foods that are rich in omega 3s. Omega 3 fatty acids are really great for cervical mucus. And if you think about it, just oils in general, healthy oils. So, things like coconut oil that you're taking internally. I know some people use it physically, like as lubricant. I'm not a huge fan, but, Take things oils internally because when you're increasing those oils, which are very Yin substances, you're also improving your own body's ability to moisten itself. And you can also get, , those oils through nuts and [00:10:00] seeds, which are very rich in what we call in Chinese medicine, Jing. Jing is really fertile essence. It's really essence of the body. Okay. And if you think about seeds or nuts, they're basically seeds ready to sprout, which is ultimately like what egg and sperm are. So they're fertile, they're fertile by nature, and they have everything that they need and all the resources within it's the seed in order to fertilize and become fertile. So you want things in nature to borrow from so that it improves your own ability to fertilize as well, which of course is conception.   So, here are things to consider if you were to buy fertility friendly lubricants. So, you want to find something that's water based so that it doesn't decrease sperm motility  because that would be the most similar consistency to natural cervical mucus. You also want lubricants that are free[00:11:00] from parabens, fragrances, or any kind of chemicals, and ultimately to be the closest mimicking of natural cervical mucus.  And here are some brands that are the most fertility friendly. And the first one is precede fertility lubricant. You'll see that very often it's available on Amazon, many different places. And then also good clean love biogenesis fertility lubricant. Another one is conceived plus fertility lubricant. And there's also Nautilus, the lube lubricant. And there are many different ones that you'll see. You'll also see Lola, fertility friendly lube, penchant organic. So these are things that you want to definitely look up and make sure that it says fertility friendly. And I always recommend just do your own research and really look into it. Look at the [00:12:00] reviews and find what you think is best for you but ultimately, like I said before, the best thing that you can do is try to get your own natural lubricants going, especially during the fertile window. If you have that a little bit more than, And I also recommend having sex outside of the fertile window.   I often recommend that. And in that case, you don't have to worry quite as much. I still would use natural ones though, personally, because also when your body receives the sperm outside of the fertile window, then it will, lower its immunity so that you are able to receive the sperm because it's considered like an invader through the body.   So you're able to really lower the immune system, which typically would happen in the second part of the menstrual cycle, which is the luteal phase that you're able to receive the sperm. So the more access your body has, or the more interaction it has with a [00:13:00] sperm, even if it's outside of the fertile window into the luteal phase, the more it becomes open to receiving it. And another plus for that is just really being able to connect outside of the fertile windows so that there's no timing on it. And it really is something that you can put towards your relationship with your partner so you can have that connection. And ultimately that is such an important part of the whole process because I know so many people tell me.   And express how difficult it is to have to. put the pressure of timing and when they could do it. And when you open it up to more of a larger window outside of it, there's less added pressure and there's more time for connection. And as I mentioned this in my book, the way of fertility, which I highly recommend you check out because a lot of the things that I talk about are [00:14:00] all bundled up in there described perfectly because I repeat myself a lot. And this is one of the reasons I wrote the book is because I wanted to put all of my ideas and thoughts and all of my findings and lots of the information that I got from, , ancient wisdom and really the basis of Chinese medicine into a book where you can find it with exercises. But I talk about the connection between the partners and really having that connection because when you do have that connection and you really feel turned on, you will naturally also produce more natural lubricant.   So those are natural processes of the body, but it all starts with the mind. So a lot of it really starts psychologically and it's It's about connecting, opening the heart. So I talk a lot about that in the book. You can look at the episode notes to find out more on how to get that. And I will also list these fertility friendly lubricants that I mentioned in the episode[00:15:00] notes. And you can always reach out to me. on Instagram. I'm always there and my handle is at the wholesome Lotus fertility. If you have any questions you want to reach out, you can find me there. So thank you so much for tuning in today and I hope you have a beautiful day. 

In our conversation, Ylette shares her unique journey through motherhood, her connection with spirit babies, and the importance of intuition in the process of conception. She discusses her experiences with pregnancy, loss, and healing, emphasizing that these moments can also offer sacred element. Ylette also highlights the significance of community and support for women navigating their own journeys, encouraging them to trust their intuition and embrace their power.   Takeaways   Intuition plays a crucial role in understanding and connecting with spirit babies. Healing from past trauma is essential for creating a nurturing environment for new life. The experience of loss can be both painful and sacred, offering profound lessons. Surrendering to the process of conception can lead to unexpected outcomes. Building a supportive community is vital for women on their fertility journey. Trusting one's intuition is key to navigating the complexities of trying to conceive. Healing is a layered process that requires ongoing self-reflection and care. Nurturing oneself is essential for preparing to nurture a child.   Guest Bio:   Ylette is the visionary behind Xio by Ylette, a jewelry business that draws inspiration from her Latin roots and the enchanting magic of the cosmos. As an intuitive guide, she empowers women to reclaim their voices and rediscover their inner magic, allowing their light to shine brightly and illuminate the world. Ylette holds a heartfelt belief that when we do what sets our soul on fire & let that light sparkle, we inspire the entire world to glow in harmony.   Passionate about motherhood, Ylette is devoted to helping mothers become their best selves, fostering love and nurturing for their children who will become the shining legacy of the future. Through her Mystic Mama Collective membership, Ylette holds space for mothers and women committed to walking the path, emphasizing the importance of balancing our human and soul aspects. This balance, she believes, helps us find the magic in the mundane and better navigate the journey with purpose. Through her whimsical approach and profound wisdom, Ylette weaves a tapestry of light, love, and magic, touching the lives of women and children alike.   Social Media: Instagram: @ylette_   Check out Michelle's latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Ylette   Ylette (00:02) Hi, hello, I am so excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me and having me on.   Michelle (00:07) Yes. So I have, we follow each other on Instagram. I watch your Instagram and I really love it. I loved your energy. And I was like, I really liked this girl. Like I got to have her come on. And you also, I knew that you were like working with spirit babies and I was like, my gosh, I really, really jive with her energy. So I'm so happy to have you on here. And I would love for you to introduce yourself and give us a little bit of a background and how you got inspired to do the work that you do.   Ylette (00:37) Hi, so my name is Ile   I got pregnant at 24 years old, had my daughter at 24, then turned 25. And I want to talk a little bit about that story because it is a big part of what shaped me into who I am today and connecting with spirit babies along the way. But I currently channel spirit babies. I am an intuitive. I study astrology, something that came very easy to me. I feel like when I went to school, I was that kid that barely retained anything. I mean, I could memorize something and throw it on a paper. So I always had good grades.   but I feel like none of it really made sense to me and I didn't retain much. I did get a master's in psychology. I am currently by day a school counselor. And then I say a school counselor by day, I read the stars and connect with the cosmic energies by night and juggling mom life. But it wasn't until I found astrology that I felt like, whoa, I am home because it came so easy to me. And it was so intuitive that the chart, I just opened it up and I feel like I was being led.   So I always say that I open someone's chart and the chart speaks to me. I don't do, your son is in this, your rising is in that. I'm like, we're gonna open up. We're gonna go wherever the chart leads me because I feel like astrology is so vast that if you start with just the surface level things, you can be there for hours. So I'm like, we're gonna go deep, Mercury and Scorpio, Scorpio, and we're gonna go deep right away. So that astrology really opens me up and strengthen my intuitive gifts.   Michelle (01:36) That's cool.   Mm -hmm.   Ylette (02:05) So that's what I'm doing now. I'm kind of like balancing both being a school and connecting with spirit babies and doing astrology readings on the side. But what started this whole journey is when I was 24   I got pregnant with my first daughter, Sophia, really young. I mean, I think young for me. And while I was pregnant with her, I had had before, because I did suffer when I was younger, some sexual trauma and abuse, and you know, the body holds on to all of that. And so I had, I remember I had gone in for a pap smear maybe like two years before I conceived my daughter, and I had some cancerous cells on my cervix.   Michelle (02:33) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Ylette (02:44) So I had the procedure to get a leap and do and have, you know, a piece of my cervix removed and all of that. And so when I told the doctor, when I had gotten pregnant with Sophia, that I had that procedure, they were like, now all of a sudden he was a new doctor. You're high risk. We have to do a bunch of ultrasounds just to make sure that your cervix is okay and it's not opening. And so I was having a lot of ultrasounds. And when I went in for my, I believe 16 week ultrasound, there was a tech that measured the cervix and I was having different techs measure it and   What I found out later is that when different techs measure the cervix, they can get different numbers, so it's not really super accurate. So the tech was like, your cervix is super sure, and the doctor came in and he's all concerned, he's like, we're gonna have to do a cerclodge. So I imagine I was 24 years old at the time, I was so nervous, I wasn't confident, not in my power, I'm like, okay, you're the doctor, you know best.   Michelle (03:33) So for people who aren't hearing this, when the cervix is really short, it could be considered like an which can cause miscarriage. And a cerclage is a way to keep it in place   Ylette (03:43) Yes.   Right. So the stitching. So I was like, okay, let's do this. And even my mom had freaked me out because she's like, that happened to your grandma in Cuba. She lost a bunch of pregnancies because her cervix would open and they had to end up sewing her up. And that's how she had me. And then, you know, my brother and I was like, okay, well, I guess this is it. And my partner at that time was like, are you sure you don't want to think about this? And I was like, no, the doctor knows best. So let's just go. So I went in for the procedure.   I had it done the minute that I got out of surgery. I felt they had given me Tylenol coating. Now I know that it makes me throw up. So I don't take that anymore. But they had given it to me and I threw up. And when I threw up, guess I from the epidural, I urinated on myself and they thought that my water broke. So they were like, I was 18 weeks and they're like, your water, your water broke. We're going to do the like I think it's called the Fern test. They do to check if there's amniotic fluid.   Michelle (04:41) Hmm?   Ylette (04:44) until they did the test and it came back positive and they're like, for sure your water broke. Later I found out those can get false positives. So they were like, your water broke, we're gonna have to take the baby out right now. And I was like, what? And they're like, yeah, I'm so sorry. Like they didn't even hold me, they didn't allow any space for me to grieve or have all of these feelings. And I'm 24 years old just sitting there in the recovery room. My mom is next to me.   Michelle (05:00) Wow, that's so crazy.   Ylette (05:10) We get the news we're both freaked out. My mom instantly pulls out her Bible. She starts the up praying and I'm freaking out, but I was like, well, I mean, I guess, I guess if you're telling me that this is what's going to happen, this is what's going to happen. So they take me upstairs. They start that same day. They removed the sirclage that they had just put in. So talk about trauma. It went back in there. I was raw and just, and they removed it. And then they started putting servadil.   Michelle (05:31) my God.   Ylette (05:39) to start trying to soften my cervix. like, well, you you have no water, you're gonna keep leaking. Baby can't grow without amniotic fluid. So we're just gonna have to remove the baby. And the whole time I was freaking out, they put the cerclage, nothing was working. I think they put it three, I mean the cervidil, they put three different rounds of cervidil. Nothing was working, my cervix was tight. And all the while I could feel my baby moving. It's like whenever a doctor would come in, my baby was like, boom, Sophia, like, mom, pay attention.   Michelle (06:02) my god.   wow.   Ylette (06:09) elbow me, she would move around and I would tell my mom, I'm like, mom, I feel her moving. I feel her kicking. It's almost like she's trying to tell me something. So this is where it gets really crazy. And I'm just like, wow, divine intervention. So we have a nurse come in and my daughter, my due date with my daughter Sophia was July 10th, 2010.   And the nurse comes in and I see that she's wearing, because I'm big into jewelry. I didn't mention I also have like a jewelry company named after my grandmother, which I do a lot of Zodiac jewelry. So the nurse comes in and the first thing that I notice, of course, is that she's wearing a necklace and she has a cancer Zodiac on it. And I go to her, my God, my daughter was supposed to be a cancer. She's supposed to be born July 10th. And the nurse was like, what? My birthday is July 10th.   Michelle (06:47) Hmm.   Wow.   Ylette (06:59) And I was like, my God, like what a coincidence her name was Gloria. And at the time I was going to name my daughter Sophia Bella. And I was like, wow. And the nurse, she did like the little doctor. She's like, listen, honey, I hear the baby moving around in there. There's water in there. You don't continue to leak. You need to get up out of this hospital and go because your baby is fine. And if you continue to stay here, they're going to end up doing something that is going to cause you to abort this child. And I feel like she's fine.   in came another nurse right after her name Sophia. And she was like, the same thing happened to me. I had a little tear in my sack and it kind of sealed over. I was on bed rest and my son is here, born healthy. And I was like, you know what? I talked to my mom, was like, we need to go. When the doctor found out that I needed, that I was going to get up and go and like sign myself out, they came in, a specialist came in and was like, your baby can be born with this and this and this and it's not going to develop.   Michelle (07:42) Yeah.   Ylette (07:54) all of these things to scare me. And in that moment, I just felt so confident and so secure after talking to Gloria and that, you know, her coming in, which I feel like she was my earth angel with the little cancer zodiac necklace. I was like, no, I'm going to get up and I'm going to go and my baby keeps kicking me. And I trust that this is the right decision. I ended up leaving, found another doctor. The doctor's like, your cervix is fine. There's no issue with your cervix.   Michelle (08:20) my God.   Ylette (08:22) You don't even have to be on bed rest. Like, get up, do whatever you need to do. And my daughter Sophia was born July 10th, 2010, and I named her Sophia Gloria after the nurse.   Michelle (08:32) my God, that is crazy. Yes, that is insane. just, my God, you have to listen to your intuition. think that that's like the, the of the story.   Ylette (08:34) Isn't that insane?   Yep. Yep. And it's so hard to do, with all of the fear and they just instill so much fear. And if you don't do this and if you don't do that, and it took so much within me to be like, you know what? I'm not, I'm going to go. And I remember my mom and I went to church every Sunday and we would pray and I was like, it makes sense that my daughter's name is Sophia. Sophia Christ consciousness, divine wisdom. And even in her astrology chart, she has so much   old soul energy. She's a cancer rising cancer son, almost a cancer moon in the 12 house in Gemini. And I was like, this is just you came in to really activate me and really put me in touch with my intuition. And ever since then, I completely changed. can ask anyone and they will tell you pre Sophia and post Sophia, you were a completely different person.   And I had a friend who, she actually went on a fertility journey and she was having a lot of miscarriages and she heard, I think she went to a fertility specialist and they gave her the book. What's that book called? The Spirit Baby book by Walter. Yeah. And.   Michelle (09:53) Spirit Baby? Yeah.   Ylette (09:58) She gave it to me and I was just so interested in it I started reading it and that book activated me. It was almost like a remembering. So when I started reading that book and I was like, wait a minute, it makes so much sense that we can connect to the souls of the babies that are going to come in because we are souls. And at 18 years old, I had read many lives, many masters. And when I learned about past lives, I was like, it was another like remembering. was like, I knew it. I know I've lived many lives. So when I read spirit babies, I'm like,   Michelle (10:18) Hmm?   Ylette (10:27) course, this makes so much sense. So I started connecting. I started doing the meditations in the book and I started connecting with my before I got pregnant, actually this happened. Now that I'm remembering reminding what, cause my husband and I wanted her and I was like, okay, if you're listening to me, if you're close, send me yellow butterflies. Every time that I would go out, three little yellow butterflies would flow around me.   Michelle (10:44) Mm -hmm.   wow.   Ylette (10:50) Even my husband would play golf and he'd send me a picture. said, look, a yellow butterfly would land on his golf ball. And I was like, this is so legit. I ended up getting pregnant and it was the most connected that I have felt to any   I would call in the guides. I would call in my ancestors. It was just such a spiritual experience.   So fast forward, I think a lot of us went through a lot in 2020 and it's almost like if our world got turned upside down. I know for us, even like with our business, we went through these highs, these lows and a lot of transformation. And so fast forward, we moved from Miami to Orlando. And so fast forward to this year in March,   I started seeing some yellow butterflies Like I was just seeing them randomly. was like, well, maybe, you know, I'm just seeing yellow butterflies because we live in a very lush neighborhood. We have a lot of trees. Okay. Yellow butterflies. The eclipse hits. Surprise. I ended up finding out that I'm pregnant. We weren't expecting it.   but I feel like this is the thing the one that kind of transformed me because Prior to that I had channeled. I think it was in 2021 a message about mothers needing to really Cleanse and clear any trauma that is held in the womb to be able to hold the vibration of the new children   So a lot of things that I've been channeling is that these new babies that are coming in, they're really high vibe. Like their vibration is different. Even the way that we are experiencing karma, their experiencing karma is going to be different because these new souls really come to anchor the light. These are awakened souls. These are, you know, children from the stars. And I started channeling that information, but I didn't fully understand it. And I kept channeling things about the mother wound and   Michelle (12:28) Okay.   Ylette (12:41) clearing the womb and how much trauma we may be holding in our womb. But again, I was like, I've kind of dealt with that. I I went through my trauma. had the whole thing with the sirclage, but I've dealt with that. But healing is very layered. And when we think that we've healed something, another thing kind of comes up for clearing and healing. Exactly. We're peeling back the onion. And so I thought, okay, well, you know, I've healed all of that. So   Michelle (12:54) Mm   Mm Yeah. It's like an onion.   Mm   Ylette (13:11) When I got pregnant this last time, it ended in a miscarriage. And I almost knew because I had been living so, you know, when you get into a stage where you just feel like numb and you're disconnected and I felt very disconnected from my creativity, very disconnected from my heart, just kind of going through the motions of, you know, work And I didn't feel like myself. I didn't have any passion.   And so when I went to the doctor, I remember I was like eight weeks pregnant and I went to the doctor and they couldn't find a heartbeat. It's almost like I knew I was like, I'm disconnected from my heart. And the most powerful, I will say now experience that I have had has been experiencing a miscarriage.   Michelle (13:49) Mm   Ylette (13:58) because I was able to hold the pain and the joy and almost like life inside me, but then a death as well. And when I passed the baby, I passed the baby And I woke up and I was in my kitchen.   And I felt this one big contraction and I thought, the baby's coming. And I passed the baby and when I look, it was like the full baby in the sack, in the water. Yeah, I even have, I mean, it's kind of intense graphic, but I do have a picture of it because I wanted to keep that. And it was, I remember just looking down and holding her because I think it was a girl. And in that moment,   Michelle (14:26) wow.   Ylette (14:44) I looked down and I was like, wow, this, this little tiny thing in the water, just perfect, this little embryo. And I cried. And I, at that moment, I held both joy and sadness. It was like they both coexisted at the same time for me. And it's almost like this peace, the sense of peace washed over me. And I felt like this   this clearing, this cleansing, almost as if this soul, this baby, this experience came to me to help me release all of that trauma that still lingered in my womb, anything that I still hadn't dealt with, anything that was still stored in there. And it was just so beautiful and so magical. I just, I took her and I buried her. have this huge grandmother oak tree in the front and I did a whole little ritual and I just felt   like this purity come over me, like this cleansing. And I finally understood what I had channeled in that message of cleansing and clearing the womb. And sometimes it's through our grief that we learn the biggest lessons and we can hold, like if we really surrender to it, because I remember coming back from the hospital and asking God, I was like, I'm not going to ask for a miracle. I'm not going to ask. I'm just going to ask that whatever needs to be done right now.   Michelle (15:59) Mm   Mm   Ylette (16:08) I give it to you, I can't hold this, I can't carry this, I trust in you and I trust that I'm gonna be led through this process for my highest and best good. And it was a level of surrender that I feel like I hadn't reached before. And when I finally let go and I let this process just crack me open, it was this unfolding that really my heart just blasted open in a different way. And...   Michelle (16:21) Mm   Mm   Ylette (16:34) even though it was painful, it was so magical. It was so magical. And I think that sometimes it's hard to really surrender and lean into that when we are going through something so difficult, right? Because it's hard, pain hurts. And when we long for something so much or when we want something so bad, it's so hard. Because everyone's like, surrender. trust. It's easy to say, but it's so hard to do.   Michelle (16:46) Mm   Yeah.   Yeah, it really is. But I think about it. I think about so many things. mean, I think about Eckhart Tolle's teachings. I've always been really into his teachings. And he told a story about Buddha and that he had, a disciple or one of his disciples after Buddha died. He cried and cried and cried and cried. I mean, I think it was like he cried all night long, just couldn't stop crying, just like allowed himself to feel the depth of the pain and woke up the next day enlightened.   Because he allowed himself to walk through that darkness, like fully unimpeded. And how often do we do that? We try to stop it. It's almost like we're going through it. We try to stop it. We're trying to protect ourselves. And what do we do? We actually hold it in our tissues. Yeah.   Ylette (17:31) The darkness.   We stuff it. I tell my students that actually, I'm like, gotta allow yourself to cry and let the emotions just move through you. Feel it, go there, be vulnerable. Even if you do it by yourself and just let it crack you open and cry and release. And we feel so much better usually after, but it was a huge lesson for me this year in that experience in surrender. it's like an initiation process.   Michelle (18:01) Yeah.   Ylette (18:13) Right? That you're going to...   Michelle (18:13) I get that. I get that. my father passed away. I watched him go through the motions and I literally saw it was so crazy. I've never had an experience like this before because I never had someone so close to me, like naturally die. So they have what's crazy to me that I never knew before, that there are signs almost like you see it with babies, but they have different levels of growth.   They start crawling, they start walking, start teething. The same thing happens when people die. They start to have, they call it the rattle. And it sounds horrible to talk about, but it's not. I think that that's our own human judgments on things. Yes, it's sacred. It's sacred. And so I was like, okay, look, this is crazy because I was at the hospice and...   Ylette (18:46) Mm   Because there's beauty in that process too. That's what I've learned. Yeah, that's what is so sacred.   Michelle (19:06) you read these books and they tell you there are signs to death. Like you can certain behaviors, certain expressions, certain things, And I saw my dad looking up at one point and he was looking at something and I'm like that to me reminds me of either a newborn or a cat that zones out into seeing something that I don't see. And I'm like, this is crazy.   Ylette (19:11) Yes.   Michelle (19:29) It was almost sacred and sad all at the same time. I remember thinking like, if you just allow yourself, we like to judge and we like to label, just as it's the human condition, if you just allow yourself to move out of that for a second, just for a split second, move out of the judgment of the meaning that you're placing on this moment and what it is and the label of it.   Ylette (19:32) Yeah.   Michelle (19:54) If for one second you move out of that and you really open up to whatever that experience is, it's insane, but you can find a gift in that.   Ylette (20:03) Yes, a thousand percent. I think that, because I went through the hospice experience too with my grandfather and my grandmother, and it almost felt like it's that feeling of when you're just dancing between worlds. It's almost like being in a hospital waiting for someone to give birth and then for someone to just cross over. It's that liminal space where it's sacred and you get to hold it. And I feel like it is true what you're saying that   Michelle (20:24) Mm   Ylette (20:31) know, birth, we're always celebrating it, but death is sad and scary, but it's also very sacred. And I think it's important to also hold space for that and to honor how magical that transition can also be when we've, you know, completed this cycle and we're ready to go. And they are in tune with that space that is magical. Cause I remember my grandfather would say that he was seeing his mom and he was seeing friends of his that crossed over.   Michelle (20:37) you   Yeah, they do. They see.   Ylette (20:57) And in that moment when I was talking to him, even though I know that he was going and it was very sad, was also, wow, you're so, you're dancing with the magic, with the divine, with those moments. Yes.   Michelle (21:10) It's that connection, the portal opens. And so what I found actually, had a patient, she was trying to conceive for years and her grandfather had just passed away and she felt was just in her bones. Like she just knew that he was gonna open a portal for her and shortly after she conceived. And then she was even like after her first baby, she was on the birth control pills and regardless.   she got pregnant, which is really, I don't even know how that happened. But it was just like that. It was like something opened up and it was just like, boom, it was this connection of like death and birth and that cycle and that opening. It was really crazy.   Ylette (21:43) opened up.   Yes. Yes, that's exactly what I, yes, I I love it. And think that's exactly what I went through with this but wow, how sacred is this moment as well of loss and death and returning to the earth. And it's like, we come in, we go out and, but our souls are.   immortal, they're eternal. And I think that there is much work to be done for us to be able to hold space and really honor how sacred something like that can also be. And I think as women too, it's so important to hold space for it all. I even think that, you know, that something that has come up for me a lot now too, with this fear of like, you know, announcing like, I'm pregnant now is just what if I use it? What if   and not wanting to say anything, but I'm like, it's so important too to have community and have a community of women that know that you are pregnant and that you can share if something does go wrong with so that you don't have to go through it alone so that they can hold space for you so that whatever it is that you're going through, you have that community of friends and people that are like, my experience may be different from your experience, but I feel you, I got you, I'm holding space for you. I think as women, that is so important for us to have.   Michelle (22:56) Yeah.   Yeah.   Ylette (23:02) because the journey is personal, but it's also collective. And I have a lot of friends who are currently struggling to conceive. And I have one, you know, she's a little bit older and she's struggling to conceive. And I gave her this book. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's called, what is it called? Something Choice. I'll have to get you the name. Mary, is it Mary's, Rosa's Choice?   But the minute that I started reading it, it talks a lot about the mother wounds and things that we haven't explored. And I'm like, wow, there's so many things that when we're on the trying to conceive journey come up for us or when we're pregnant come up for us. it's an initiation within itself, that journey of trying and struggling and learning to surrender and learning about your power and learning how to hold your grief, letting others support you.   Michelle (23:57) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Ylette (23:57) really having that community and trusting in a bigger plan, even though it's so hard. It's so hard when you're in the moment, because we want what we want.   Michelle (24:06) It could feel, you know, for some people they've expressed, You're like stuck in this place and you just want to move on. You want to start your family and you're like, when is this ever going to happen? And then you can kind of get into this whole mindset there where you're like, what's happening, the doubt and the fear. And it could be really tough.   Ylette (24:10) Yes.   It's, yeah, I had a friend who, and you know what's been something that I've noticed and obviously everyone's story is different, but, and the friends that I have had is when they have reached that point of surrender, where I had a friend who was, think she was trying for almost two years and she was like, you know what, like I'm okay with whether it doesn't happen or not. I've come to a point where, you know, I'm happy, my husband and I, and I have my nieces and nephews and I'm okay and I'm good.   She ended up getting pregnant the month after. She's like, I feel like when I turned it over and I was just like, like, you know what, God, like I'm okay. If it doesn't happen, she ended up getting pregnant. I've heard a lot of stories where women, they make a decision where it's, know, we'll adopt or we're, and then something shifts and something happens. And again, everybody's story is so different because we don't know what one.   woman is going through versus another, whether baby is thinking, Hey mom, I really need you to, you know, move to this new house when this happens, then I'll come through. Cause babies remember spirit babies, they know and they see what we don't. So what we're trying to force something or push something or think we want it now, sometimes babies are wait, wait.   Michelle (25:33) Mm   Ylette (25:39) Hold on, I'm coming, but wait, because there's little pieces that need to be moved. Maybe there's something like, want you and daddy to get closer. There's something in the relationship where I want to bring you guys closer. it's hard for us to let go because we don't see the big picture. But in working with the spirit babies, something that I have found is that they see big picture. And when we work with them and something as simple as,   Michelle (26:00) Mm   Ylette (26:04) It doesn't have to be complicated, just journaling to them, pretend that you're, you know, write them a letter, connect to them. Hey baby, this is my lie. If I am your mom, tell them about you. Start a specific journal where you go just to talk to them and ask for signs. I'm like, usually the first thing that comes to your mind is a sign. You start creating that connection where even if you're struggling to conceive, I feel like just knowing that   you have this bond and you have this connection is so healing and so comforting because even if it takes longer, even if baby isn't meant to incarnate in this lifetime, if you're, I am a big believer, if you have that desire in your heart to have a child, you feel connected to a child, your child is there. Sometimes they're not always meant to incarnate.   Michelle (26:53) I say the same thing all the time. It's so funny. A lot of what you're saying are things that I feel deeply. Yeah.   Ylette (26:59) Yeah, because it's sometimes they're not meant to incarnate, but they're meant to serve as our guide. They're meant to work with us. So I always say if you feel that desire, if you're trying to get your baby is there and you can connect with them, whether it's through journaling, through meditation, through asking for signs and then surrendering and allowing yourself to receive synchronicities, numbers. And you start building that connection, which a lot of babies, they   Often I've heard from other women that I've talked to too is like the baby wants that. They want to start building that connection before and then they'll end up getting pregnant or it'll be a little bit easier for them to get pregnant. But babies are like, no, I want to connect with you now. I want you to get to know me now. I want to guide you. Because even working with them, they can help guide us to, if I'm waiting for my mom to get a better job, mom, hey, I'm over here. Connect with me, work with me. And then once you start   Michelle (27:40) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Mm   Ylette (27:52) Surrendering to that opening up to that you see how little things start shifting and things start moving But if you have a desire Let go of the how you got to let go of the how and just allow You know God spirit to deliver because it can look so different from the way that you thought it was gonna look like if you have something in your mind where you're like I'm gonna get pregnant by this agent. This is gonna happen by this agent. This is what and it's like no, no Let's surrender to that connect with your baby and be like, know what baby   I surrender to you. I surrender to how you want to be conceived, how you want to be born, how it's going to look. Like maybe it can even be through adoption or we just don't really know. But I do believe that if you have the desire, baby's there.   Michelle (28:35) Well, there has always been that saying, If there's a desire within you, there's also possibility in the, ethers. And that's why, that's where the desire is born, actually. It's like from that possibility, it's like landed as a seed. And so that is something that I definitely don't think we should ignore. And we should also give it the merit that it deserves. And I have...   Ylette (28:42) Yes.   Michelle (28:59) one of my patients just recently, she was starting to ask for signs. We talked about that. And she's like starting to ask for signs. And then she started asking for specific signs and the signs that she got were insane. Because she would even say a name that she always wanted for her daughter. So she knew it was going to be a daughter and she described exactly what it was and all this stuff. Like she was struggling to conceive for about a year and half before she came to me. She saw me for a whole year. So I'm giving you kind of this background so you can see that she really struggled.   Ylette (29:04) Mm   Yeah.   Michelle (29:29) but the signs were so insanely accurate. Like she would see this name on a wine bottle that she received. She would see this when she would go on a treadmill. It was like the last person's like name that they input there. It was crazy. and it wasn't like a common name. So it was really, really crazy.   Ylette (29:42) What?   Michelle (29:52) that and then other signs she said, okay, let me give you a specific sign that's different. And she would start seeing that. I mean, so she would come and tell me the stories. I'd get chills every time. And I was like, my God, this is crazy. So then finally she gave herself like a certain timeline. She said, if I'm not pregnant by this time, I'm going to go to do IVF. She went and did IVF and she was all excited. She like just felt like she really knew. She knew, she knew she did IVF. Unfortunately, completely couldn't even get an embryo.   So it was really, really sad. was devastating to watch. I felt like I was already failing her because she's been coming to me for a year and I'm like, my God, I really, I really want to see this for her. Like it was just, I can see the tears and, then she said, okay, let me just do this other one. She got a loan and everything. Let me try this other retrieval. Again, a second time, she just out of nowhere gets pregnant naturally. It just comes out of nowhere. And I was like, it was like that. And she's like, I know it's going to be a girl.   Ylette (30:42) you   Michelle (30:48) We don't know yet. I mean, she's still in her first trimester. We're going to find out soon. But she's like, I know it's a girl. Yeah. And it was just crazy. the signs, 100%. I always tell people, ask for those signs. They will come to you. I mean, the stories I heard, I can write a book just on the signs, just on the signs themselves.   Ylette (30:49) huh.   Yeah.   How exciting, you know?   Yes.   And I think that it's also important to share those stories and to listen to those stories because it also gives you hope when you're on that trying to conceive journey. And I am big on listening to other stories and I love stories of hope and everything is so different for everyone. And some babies do prefer like, okay, I want to be born through IVF. That could just be part of your journey because there's something there for you. Right. Yes.   Michelle (31:35) or a surrogate or even an egg donor. I've had one where I had a guest, she's a fertility coach. She had two embryo donors, like complete embryo adoptions. And she knew that she wanted to do it and she felt connected. It was just crazy. mean, she had a crazy story herself, but very, very interesting how that happened.   Ylette (31:49) Well.   that you feel the call and that's where that surrender piece comes in where it's like, just let go of the how. Forget of how you imagined you want it to look. Just focus on what is it that you want. You want to bring in a baby closer, start connecting to the baby and let go of the how and then just allow it to be delivered to you. Whether it's surrogate, IVF, adoption, just let go.   Michelle (32:03) Yeah.   Yes, 100%. Yeah.   Right, the how, because it's a conversation, it's a dance. And if we're just talking, it's not a conversation. If we're just telling it how to be, it's not a conversation. We have to, yes, we could talk, but also receive and kind of go back and forth and allow that.   Ylette (32:22) Mm   Exactly.   And that's that feminine, right? Because that's the most feminine thing that we can do is just being in that surrender, in that flow state. you have to be so vulnerable, which I think is why it's so hard for so many of us to really just be open and just be fully surrendered and open because we have to feel safe in order to be able to.   Michelle (32:54) It's scary. That's scary. Like it's a scary thing. I always kind of like look at even the chakras and I learned that when I was studying Ayurveda, mean, the chakras are literally vortexes in our bodies. And what's interesting is cause when I studied acupuncture, I started seeing that there are points that correlate and correspond and even have the same indication for that specific chakra location. So that to me is almost like confirmation cause it's two different sciences, but then.   What's interesting to me is that you have the root chakra, that's the first one, and that pretty much holds up everything else. It begins there, it begins with feeling safe. Once you have that rooted establishment, that's established and you feel safe and you're grounded, then you can create. That's a second chakra. You cannot create without a feeling of safety. And so it's all about feeling safe. And then,   Ylette (33:30) Thank   Yes.   Michelle (33:52) The nervous system we know, it plays a huge role on your body and also your reproductive health. And right now, the way we're living, and I'm talking about the collective, it is such an assault to our nervous system. I can't even tell you, like in so many ways. So it's important to kind of get ahead of that, not to side direct the conversation, but it's just so important.   Ylette (34:04) Yeah.   Yes.   Yeah. Yeah. And I think you're doing wonderful work in the world, which is so, so important and being able to, it makes sense why you feel that strong Kwan Yin energy, being able to hold space because you're holding space in order for women to feel safe and feel surrendered. Right? So they come to you and they're   playing in that feminine energy where it's like, this is me, I'm vulnerable. You're meeting people at their most raw, their most vulnerable moments, you know, even from a point of desperation and to feel safe with you. I'm sure like it's so important because then they can fully surrender into the process and go through it with someone that they feel safe with. Because at the end of the day, it all goes back to that, that safety and intimate relationships. see it too. When I, even when I do counseling sessions, it's like if   the person doesn't feel safe, they're not gonna open up and they're not gonna be able to receive anything. So the growth comes from first the safety, the surrender, the vulnerability and then allowing yourself to be able to receive. But that's, it's so feminine, right? Cause even when we're having sex, it's like you have to feel safe to open, to surrender and then to be, to be penetrated, to receive. And it's, it's, it's hard. It's hard.   Michelle (35:06) Yeah.   Mm   Mm   Yes, it could be very hard for sure. so for people like, cause I think that a lot of people will ask like, what's the difference between my thoughts and my intuition? what, like if the spirit baby is speaking to me, how do I know that it's the spirit baby? How do I know that it's not just me thinking or making it like a thing? So what would you say to that? Cause I think that that's a very big question for people who want to get into the intuition, want to connect.   directly with your spirit baby.   Ylette (36:02) I think that when it comes to, like everyone receives intuitive hits differently. But for me, it's always that knowing, that inner knowing, that feeling. I think that you'll just know and it'll be specific to you. And you have to trust that, I call it the little heart string, like when your heart goes, and you kind of just know, you need to trust that feeling because thoughts are more fearful and they're gonna be, no, that's not real, that's not.   Michelle (36:06) Mm   Ylette (36:30) But when you get an intuitive hit and you see something and it takes you back, like you have to trust like that wow factor, like that feeling of where we can be walking down the street, right? And I'm trying to conceive, I'm trying to get pregnant and I know that my sign is a yellow butterfly and I see the yellow butterfly and it's gonna hit me, it's gonna stop me, it's gonna go, Whereas my friend would be like, cool, a yellow butterfly. So you have to trust that feeling that you get, that gut feeling and that feeling in your heart where you're   just going to know. And your thoughts are anxiety versus intuition is it's going to sound fearful. that doesn't exist. That's scary. But you have to kind of drown it out because it's really hard to silence the mind. And the logical mind always gets in the way. But intuition isn't logical. And the more we allow ourselves to really play in that realm of imagination. And I say be a little delulu because you got to be a little delulu in order to really start testing that intuition.   Michelle (37:13) Mm   I like that.   Ylette (37:30) Is when things are going to open up and it you don't need anyone else to validate it for you There's no convincing because you're just gonna know and I always tell people that I love pointing people back to themselves because a lot of Women because I have this membership circle that I actually just reopened It's called the mystic mama collective And what I love to do is I love to point women back to themselves because I don't want you to come to me for validation I need you to trust what you are getting   and know that it is for you. Because like I said, the yellow butterfly may be mine, but yours is gonna be something different and it's gonna make sense to you. And you're just gonna know it in your heart. And the more that you start to trust that and put aside the logical mind that tells you, that's not real. Because society tells us that so many things aren't real, right? And it's this conditioning and you have to kind of just silence that and trust, continue to trust. And the more that you trust...   Michelle (38:22) Mm   Ylette (38:24) the louder that it gets and the easier that it gets to start following that intuition. Because if you're, let's say you and I are both walking down the road and I'm meant to go right and you're meant to go left, you're gonna be like, I think left. And I'm like, no, I think right. But if you start convincing me to go left and I'm like, I'm really feeling like I gotta go right, but you said I should go left. Maybe I should go left. That's when we start getting into trouble. So sometimes we have to realize that what may be true for you is great, but it's not true for me. And I gotta,   Michelle (38:44) Yeah.   Yes.   Ylette (38:54) start learning to really trust myself. The more that we do that, the louder and clearer it's gonna be and the easier it's gonna get to start following our intuition. Because we know even like we know as women like you know when it's time to end the relationship, you know when it's time to leave that job, you know when things are no longer in alignment but what keeps us there longer than we need to be?   Michelle (39:09) Mm -hmm. Yep.   Yeah, right. We'll convince ourselves out of it. You know, everything that you're saying could be applied to creativity. And that's why I think that like the single most greatest thing you can do actually to impact fertility is become creative. Start to do creative things. Even if you're not considering yourself as a creative person, you are creative. We're born creative. Our decisions of how we're going to drive somewhere is using your creativity. You're always using your creativity. It may not be an art per se.   Ylette (39:30) Yes.   Michelle (39:45) But you're always creating anyway, because you have to, because that's how we think. That's how we pivot.   Ylette (39:47) You're something.   And another thing too that I was told to is find something, like, fair babies, let me know, find something that you can nurture, whether it's a garden, a pet, a plant, a project, get into that energy of nurturing something. Just practice nurturing. It puts you in that feminine energy of taking care of something, nurturing yourself, which is a huge one. A lot of times it's like, what are you doing for yourself?   Michelle (40:03) I love that.   Yeah.   Ylette (40:21) in order to create this space. Because if you're constantly go, go, go, go, go, well, then how are you going to then bring in a child who's going to need so much attention and space and nurturing? So practicing nurturing yourself to taking a bubble bath, getting your nails done, getting your hair done, even, you know, putting on some jewelry, putting on some makeup. It's a way of you honoring that divine feminine and being able to nurture yourself. Everything is connected, even though it seems like, what does this have to do with that? It's all connected.   Michelle (40:45) Yes. 100%. Yes. It's the big picture. It's the big picture perspective. my God, I love this. I could talk to you for hours, by the way. So for people who want to reach out for you, you do readings. Do you astrological readings? And could you like, yeah.   Ylette (40:51) Yes.   I know!   Yeah, so right now I'm about to open my books again. I would do like spirit baby readings, card readings. I have I do astrology readings as well and I have my membership circle. So right now I have the free community space which women can just join and we do updates in there. I am going to open up the paid membership now which we're going to be doing like moon circles and just a space to go deeper for those who really want to do the work to get in tune with their intuition and learn.   And I'm also working on a spirit baby course on how to communicate with your spirit babies. So that is coming with meditations. We're also going to look into some of the things that may be blocking like mother wounds and things like that, because that's what has really been coming up for a lot of women that I talk to is a lot of mother wounds and fear around mothering, mothering themselves, mothering others, issues with their own mothers or how they were mothered, because we don't even realize, but   Michelle (41:35) I love that.   Ylette (42:01) all of that programming or the experiences that we went through.   Yep, it's in there and that fear that we carry of, am I gonna be a good mother? That's a huge one. Am I gonna fail at this? Am I gonna? So I think the work is just bringing women back to themselves and having them just trust themselves. I'm really big on trust yourself. Don't come to me for validation. I can hold space for you, but you have the power. It's all within you. You gotta trust yourself.   Michelle (42:29) Love that. That's awesome. So how can people find you?   Ylette (42:34) So you can find me on my Instagram it's at let's while eat TTE underscore and then I have links and bio there to everything I've kind of been a little MIA from that because I've been feeling so sick Honestly, this is the first Pregnancy that I was feeling so sick and I think I kind of manifested that too because of the fear of the miscarriage from the other one So it was kind of like that   Michelle (42:46) Mm   Ylette (42:59) little thing where it's like, cause you know how everyone tells you, if you're nauseous, then it's a good sign. If you're nauseous, means things are going well. And I think I've manifested that, I swear to kind of keep me like, yeah, like, no, no, it's okay. It's okay. Cause I'm gonna get something wrong. this, you know, cause when you go through something like it is traumatic, you go through an experience like that and, it's hard to kind of lean into that joy. Cause you're just holding your breath. It's almost like,   Michelle (43:04) Mm   Yeah.   In check like to calm you down.   Yeah.   Yes.   Ylette (43:27) I just feel like I've been holding my breath, of like, you know, even talking about it now.   Michelle (43:31) I see this all the time. It happens with like almost all my patients. mean, I would say all of them. Yeah.   Ylette (43:38) Yeah, it's hard. hard to feel that joy, which is kind of sad because then you look back and like, I wish I would have been more. But it's just telling yourself if something is meant to happen, it's going to happen. Kind of let it go. But I still dance with the... It's a dance, right? No one's perfect. I dance with the fear and the surrender and the joy.   Michelle (43:50) Yeah.   Absolutely. Yes. a good thing for people to hear because like, even though you and I, teach a lot, we talk a lot, you know, we go, we're human too. Like we still, even though I'll teach something, I still sometimes have my own struggles walking the talk and you are experiencing that too. And that's kind of like that human aspect of it that we are all practicing and going through it.   Ylette (44:06) Mm -hmm.   Michelle (44:22) even though we know, we know it, we never get to this kind of like this place of perfection, everything working out like all the time exactly how we teach it, you know? Yeah.   Ylette (44:31) Exactly. That's the thing too is, and I think that it's important too, and it's powerful for us to as teachers also be walking the walk and going through our own experiences because it does show those that we work with. Like I'm here with you. I'm human too. I don't really like like people. I'm like, don't place me above. I bleed. You you cut me. I bleed. I'm human. have anxiety, so much anxiety. The difference is that I do the work because I say that the work that we do   Michelle (44:46) Yeah, totally.   Yes.   Yeah.   Ylette (44:59) helps us get through these moments, but it doesn't mean we're exempt from them. We're gonna go through them.   Michelle (45:03) No, no, no, no. Yeah. We're not exempt. As long as we're humans, we're not exempt. no doubt. Wow. So, Ylette this is a great conversation. you so much for coming on today.   Ylette (45:09) not exam but the work just kind of helps out it kind of helps out but yeah.   Thank you for inviting me, I feel so honored.  

In today's episode, I interview Josh Dech. In our conversation, Josh discusses the critical role of gut health in overall well-being, emphasizing that gut health impacts not just digestion but various aspects of health, including fertility. He shares his journey from being a paramedic to a holistic health practitioner, highlighting the importance of understanding inflammation, dysbiosis, and the gut microbiome.    Josh challenges conventional medical perspectives on chronic diseases and discusses the significance of dietary choices, the role of probiotics, and the hidden threats posed by parasites. He advocates for a comprehensive approach to gut health, including the five Rs of gut health, and stresses the importance of working with health professionals for optimal results. Be sure to tune in!   Takeaways   Gut health impacts everything, not just digestion. Inflammation is a sign of the body wanting to heal. Dysbiosis is an imbalance in gut bacteria. Symptoms can indicate underlying issues. Diet plays a crucial role in gut health. Conventional medicine often overlooks root causes. All diseases have a root cause. Probiotics can be beneficial but vary in effectiveness. Parasites can significantly affect gut health. Working with a professional is essential for healing.   Guest Bio:   Josh is a Holistic Nutritionist specializing in Crohn's and Colitis, and other related gut issues. After reversing over 250 cases of bowel disease, previously thought to be impossible to fix, he's been connected to some of the world's most renowned doctors.   He's since been recruited to the Priority Health Academy as a medical lecturer, helping educate doctors on the holistic approach to gut health, and inflammatory bowel disease; and has launched a top 2.5% globally ranked podcast.   https://gutsolution.ca   https://www.instagram.com/joshdech.health/       For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Click here to get free access to the first chapter in The Way of Fertility Book! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/           Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Josh.   Josh Dech - CHN (00:02) A pleasure to be here, Michelle. Thanks for having me on board.   Michelle (00:05) Yeah, I'm very excited to pick your brain. We just had a little pre -talk. I'm excited to really get into all the details of the gut nowadays we're starting to see just how impactful it is, but not just for digestion, which is like most of the time when you hear about gut, you think, okay, how's my digestion?   It's about everything. It's kind of like the center of everything. It impacts fertility.   But before we get into that, I'd love for you to share how you got into this work.   Josh Dech - CHN (00:36) I'd love to. Sure. You know, I think my entire career, I often like to describe it as a series of accidents just pushing me into one direction or another. And I used to be a paramedic and I loved it. You know, I love being in healthcare, but it wasn't very long until I realized it was actually sick care. It wasn't what I wanted to actually be doing. You know, I picked the same people up for the same things. Maybe 20 % of your calls were actually trauma, like car accidents and stuff like that. The other 80 plus percent was medical.   So we're talking people coming in for the same issues, heart issues, diabetic issues, strokes, very preventable things. Almost 99 % of them would be preventable through just simple lifestyle, nutrition and basic changes. And, you know, I ended up leaving that career after a short little stint and got into personal training in my early twenties. And that was more what I wanted to do. And I was a woman who came to see me at age 57, right at the beginning. And this is, this story is just, it'll knock your socks off because it really shows you what's possible.   So she's 57 years old. She came to see me. She was on 17 pills and a shot of insulin for breakfast. She had nine more pills and insulin for bedtime. So we're talking 26 pills a day, two shots of insulin. She had CPAP machine to sleep. She had high blood pressure. She was on disability at work as well on the list. So 27 floors up, but there was a fire. She had to stand there and wait for someone to come get her because she couldn't physically take the stairs. And that was the state of her health at 57. And so here we are two years later, she's 59 years old now.   Michelle (01:54) my God, wow.   Josh Dech - CHN (02:02) She's off all but two medications, no longer needs CPAP. She's no longer on disability, high blood pressure gone, it's totally normalized. Even her eyesight improved. She got her glasses prescription downgraded. And now he or she is 59 years old, Michelle, it gets even better. I told you, knock your socks off. We entered into her first weightlifting competition and she broke a world record in the raw power lifting federation in Canada at 59 from previously being on disability. And this is the power.   Michelle (02:14) Wow.   Yeah   Josh Dech - CHN (02:30) really truly the human body to go from 26 pills and insulin and disability to breaking world records right till she was in her mid 60s 62 63 when she retired from weightlifting but that's what the body can do it's consistently all the time it is working to heal you to improve you to rebuild you to build you stronger yet somehow we find ourselves continually going back the other way i'm getting it must be because i'm older it must be because you know i'm just getting sick it must be just genetic it must be this must be that   She was told all of her shit was genetic. None of it was. Her body was trying to heal her but it wasn't given the tools conditions and circumstances to do so until it was and then it did. And this is the power of we'll say holistic health is a super broad overarching spectrum but dealing with basics of nutrition and gut health and wellness at its root we can see that the body is so capable of healing itself and it's the most important thing you could ever do is give your body what it needs.   Michelle (03:01) Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (03:29) That's sort of how we got here.   Michelle (03:29) That is so powerful. Yeah, I that's so powerful because I, well, I think that the big thing that really gets in the way is kind of how we view our bodies or how we're taught to view our bodies. I want to say that we're conditioned to view our bodies because I think on an innate level, we do know that we can heal ourselves.   There's definitely like an innate knowing that you have and intelligence that you connect with with your body. But most people do not know based on how we're educated that their body can heal itself and that there is a choice outside of the 26 pills.   Josh Dech - CHN (04:02) Yes.   Yeah, right now you've been told there's nothing you can do right now you've been told your issues are genetic right now you've been told your only hope is medications to manage the symptoms there's nothing that can be done. But we need to understand as I learned throughout my career going back to school now specializing in gut diseases. Our guts really are at the epicenter of most of these things. And once you understand how it works, how it's connected, and how it's responsible for every aspect of your well being.   I argue sometimes that it well may be more important than our DNA. And once we can understand this concept, then we can start to look outside of what we think we already know, what we've been told. It unlocks a whole new, a whole new world for you. I'm singing a lot of it in my head now, a whole new world, but it opens all this stuff up for you. And then everything is possible. Everything you've been told becomes something of the past. Your whole paradigm begins to shift. And finally, you can look at yourself and go, wait a minute.   Michelle (04:37) You   Josh Dech - CHN (05:03) wait a minute, there, I don't have to be on these medications. I don't have to just deal with this. I don't have to just live with this because my body is trying to heal me. What is it trying to heal me from? And then you start unraveling. That's the thread that pulls apart the whole sweater.   Michelle (05:17) Yeah. And also inflammation is kind of at the heart of this because I know that it can impact so many things. know for fertility, it can impact your uterine lining. It can impact egg quality. it's very much linked with things like endometriosis. I mean, there's so many things and it just goes on and on and on. So let's talk about inflammation because that's really at the heart of all of this. Like when you address the gut health,   actually addressing inflammation. So talk about that. Talk about the Western approach to that and how you see inflammation occurring in the body.   Josh Dech - CHN (05:55) Yeah. Inflammation is always a reaction. Your body is healing you from something. And in the Westernized world, here's what I'll say. Imagine you're out going for a walk and you step on a nail and the nail goes right through your foot and you go into your doctor. The doctor looks at that nail and goes, wow, it is really swollen, really inflamed, but it's kind of just part of your body. Now there's nothing we can do about it. So what we're going to do is give you numbing cream for the pain. And if it gets infected, we can manage that as things get worse.   In worst case scenario, we'll just cut your foot off. That's absurd. may, you'd lose it. You slap the doctor, but here we are, we're going in and you got say a gut disease where I specialize like Crohn's, colitis and other gut disease. You go into your doctor, they go, wow, that inflammation is really bad. It's just genetic. It's part of your body. There's nothing we can do. We're going to manage it with quote numbing cream. So medication, anti -inflammatories. And when you get infected, we'll treat it as it comes up. And if worst case scenario, we'll just cut the organ out.   You should be slapping your doctor just like you would if it were your foot because it makes no sense. Inflammation, the very fundamentals of it is your body healing you from something. So let's apply this to Crohn's and colitis, right? Where I specialize is Crohn's, colitis and severe IBS. People are told it's genetic, it's autoimmune, there's nothing you can do. It is what it is. well, it will manage it or hopefully not cut out your bowels. Looking at this, it's not just genetic. It's not just autoimmune. It's not just unknown.   And I can break those down in about two minutes there, Michelle, really for you to basically, those are the three legs that Western medicine stands on to say you have to medicate it. I can break those with their own data and say it doesn't make any sense. But the idea being these inflammatory conditions we're told we're stuck with, yet we can reverse them 99 % of the time to full healing. Inflammation is your body healing you. We have to ask what is it healing you from?   So in the case of your intestines, they will, it's autoimmune and genetic, it's attacking your own body. Well, what if, what if your body is attacking something like your microbiome and your own tissues are caught in the crossfire, right? You get a nail in your foot, your body's not attacking your foot. That's not why you're inflamed. It's creating white blood cells or immune activity in response to attack the nail that's in your foot.   Michelle (07:50) Mm   Mmm.   Josh Dech - CHN (08:13) We don't question that. go, obviously it's infected. There's something that's wrong. When we get a condition like Crohn's or colitis or some other inflammatory condition, we go, it's attacking me. That doesn't make any sense at all.   Michelle (08:13) Mm   That's so interesting. So how do you see that specifically Crohn's is it the gut microbiome imbalance that's causing all of this? I think it's fascinating that you're saying this because I always talk about like symptoms being your friend. And it's actually just one of the intelligent aspects of your body to give you the alarm, to give you a heads up. Hey, pay attention.   Josh Dech - CHN (08:36) Yeah.   Mm   Michelle (08:52) So it is really fascinating to look at it that way rather than a nuisance.   Josh Dech - CHN (08:52) Yeah.   Yeah, I see it cascading down as a few different things. So number one, we all have dysbiosis now. Dysbiosis just means an imbalance in bacteria. But we know through the work of someone like Justin Sonnenberg that we can see what's called inherited dysbiosis. Our microbiomes are passed down from our mothers and her grandmother and her great, great grandmother before that. We get these dysbiotic states handed down and the more toxic our world gets them, the the dysbiosis becomes.   Michelle (09:06) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (09:26) So think of it this way, Michelle, great, great grandmother, we'll just round number just to visualize easier. Say they have a thousand microbes. Great grandmother gives birth to your great grandmother, who's given 800, who gives birth to your grandmother, who gets six, to your mother, who gets 400, to you, who gets 200 microbes. You now have inherited dysbiosis. Of course your gut's getting worse, which explains the rise of gut disease we've seen over the last...   50 to 75 years, we've seen these numbers compounding gut disease getting worse in the 1950s, Crohn's and colitis. There was about, I think it was maybe five or 10 in 100 ,000 people had this disease. To the 1970s, you're now 25 to 40 in 100 ,000 who have the disease. 1990s, you're about 150. And now today, it's 456. Almost 5 % of people now have bowel disease in North America.   And so what we're seeing now is this continual growth from like whatever it was, 0 .0005 % to 5 % growth in bowel disease is because great great grandmother had a thousand, now you've got 200. This is inherited dysbiosis. And there's a direct correlation to the amount of pesticides we use, to the chemicals we put on our food, to everything. And now what happens, this dysbiosis, this is the moat around the castle. This keeps the bad guys out.   Michelle (10:39) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (10:49) This is your defense mechanism. 90 % of your immune system is made there, or 70 to 90%, I should say, up to 90 % of your neurotransmitters, what your brain needs, all these leaks that happen in the gut when we're inflamed, it opens up the door for toxins to travel anywhere in the body through your lymphatic system or your bloodstream. And so we have our defenses lowered from 1 ,000 to 200, say. We don't have the same robustness to our body.   Michelle (10:54) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (11:16) which means other invaders, mode is empty, invaders can enter the castle. So now we've got three big issues that really are the roots of bowel disease. Number one is going to be microbial imbalances. So this is that dysbiosis we inherited, which lets in overgrowth of fungus, which should be in our gut, but in smaller levels it overgrows. We see overgrowth of E. coli, a big one I see. Michelle has parasites. I'm talking three, four foot worms coming out of people, which yeah, which.   Michelle (11:20) Hmm.   Mm God.   Josh Dech - CHN (11:45) has never been detected and will never be seen on your blood work from your doctor. So we see microbial imbalances. We also see toxins which contribute to this number of 200. So pesticides in 1990, right, we had let's go back to the 50s. We talked about say five or 10 in 100 ,000 to 1990 where it was about 150 to today where it's almost 456 per hundred thousand people with bowel disease. In the 1950s there was a handful of pesticides for use.   1990s it was 700 to 900, today it's 18 to 20 ,000 different pesticides approved for use in North America. And so this is a direct correlation, also looking at processed foods and packaged foods and seed oil consumption, the decrease in natural foods like eggs and animal fats, the increase in these artificial foods that we're now taking in. I'm not even arguing are animal fats good or bad for your heart, what I'm saying is we've eaten less of them than ever before and have more diseases than ever before.   Michelle (12:39) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (12:41) And so we have to look at these correlations and go, wait a minute, something is up. Now I'm a big fan of red meat and fatty tissues. I eat a lot of fat and a lot of meat and my body's amazing, my blood is great, right? But this is what we see, microbial imbalances, toxicity from foods, from the environment, from other places. And then we have again, a dietary nutrient deficiency. So diets, 60 to 80 % of the standard American diet is processed, refined. comes from a bag, a freezer, a box or a drive -through.   We have nutrients in our soil. Back in 2008, there was a study from the University of Texas who estimated you need eight oranges today to get the same level of nutrition that your great great grandmother would have out of one single orange due to tilling of the soil, the pesticides, right? Modern farming. So we have dysbiosis, which leads to toxins coming out or your toxins contribute to this as well. We have nutrient deficiencies because our food is more fake.   Michelle (13:22) Yeah, crazy.   Josh Dech - CHN (13:36) And then we have microbial imbalances overgrowing. No wonder your body's throwing a fit. Because since the beginning of time, whether you believe it was 5 ,000 years or 500 billion years, since the beginning of time, we've never had these issues. In fact, still today, the further away you go from the Western world, where we're eating all this food and covered in these toxins and these chemicals, the further away you go, the less disease you see. There's a direct correlation to living back naturally. Hunter gatherer tribes, they're like, what is infertility?   What do mean back pain? what are arthritis, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, kidney disease, liver disease, diabetes. What are those? They don't skin issues, acne. These are things we call normal. They've never seen it before. And this is why this is how we get disease. Yeah.   Michelle (14:16) Yeah.   That is so crazy. I mean, it's really crazy. It's crazy to think about and it's crazy that this is acceptable and that there's no regulation and nobody's really protecting the health of the people. mean, enough is enough. Like it's just so frustrating because we, because people know that it's bad. They know it and they do it anyway. And, and in many countries, many of these pesticides are banned and they know that it can impact fertility. Now they're linking a lot of them.   Josh Dech - CHN (14:33) I hear you.   Michelle (14:50) So it's so frustrating. It's so frustrating for me to see my patients having to climb an uphill battle just so that they can protect their reproductive health. Like it's just crazy. And also it's interesting that you were talking about how the dysbiosis has passed on from situations or conditions such as Crohn's disease.   Josh Dech - CHN (15:03) Yeah.   Michelle (15:15) And it's interesting because like people would say, it's inherited, it's DNA. You would think that it's kind of the DNA, but it's actually, you're saying that it's the dysbiosis that's being passed on. I'm sure there's some level of DNA, like susceptibility as well, but that's kind of an interesting take or an understanding of it because you're like, okay, like that's not something that people thought about. And we know very well.   Josh Dech - CHN (15:33) sure.   Well, I'd love to...   Michelle (15:43) that the mother passes on her microbiome to the baby.   Josh Dech - CHN (15:48) She does. Yeah. I'd love to break those three things for you I could Michelle and just a matter of minutes. You know, we look at IBD Crohn's colitis. It's just genetic. It's autoimmune or there's no known cause. Well, we just talked about number one. These are the three pillars that stands on for your doctor to say it's meds for life or surgery. That's what they have.   Michelle (16:06) So you're saying this is the perspective of medicine, what you just said. Yeah. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (16:11) Yeah, sorry, let me clarify. So if you've been diagnosed with Crohn's colitis or even IBS, you've been told it's genetic or it's an autoimmune condition or there's no known cause. That's what your doctors told you to date. And they say your best bet is medication or surgery. That's your only hope. What I'm saying is none of that makes sense. And I'll tell you why idiopathic means no known cause. We just talked about seven different causes inherited dysbiosis increase in toxins and chemicals. The last hundred years we've had   80 to 100 ,000 new chemicals added to our lives, most of them in our food. And so what you put in your gut, you're going to tell me doesn't affect my gut. That's nonsense. That's number one. So there has to be a cause because we've seen cases, even looking at the data per CDC, about 3 million cases worldwide in 1990. Today it's seven to 8 million. So cases have doubled, almost tripled in the last 30 years. So there has to be a cause. So it can't be unknown. Like they say it is number two.   Michelle (17:08) Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (17:11) They say that it's just genetic. Well, 50 % of those seven or eight million cases, North America is less than 5 % of the population. They have 50 to 60 % of all the world's cases of bowel diseases. So when 5 % has 50 % in the last 30 years where it's blown up, it cannot just be genetic. That would take thousands of years and most of those things weed themselves out of the gene pool. The last one is it's autoimmune.   Well, looking at the actual antibodies per studies, the ones that we see, even like P. Anka, we call it. This one, 70 % of those with ulcerative colitis will have this antibody. Well, it can be caused by mesalamine, a drug they use to treat Crohn's colitis, by stress, by fungal infections, by other bacterial overgrows, antibiotics. These antibodies, only 40 to 60 % have any antibodies at all. And the ones that do,   can be very well explained by nearly anything else that can go on inside the body, such as dysbiosis states, parasites, infections, antibiotic use, the very drugs in Miran, azathioprine, the ones they use to treat Crohn's and colitis can cause these antibodies. So it can't be autoimmune. And even if it was truly autoimmune, at least 50 % don't have any antibodies at all, but you're treating it like it's autoimmune. So the three pillars they have to stand on, Michelle, to say you need drugs for the rest of your life.   Michelle (18:23) Wow.   Josh Dech - CHN (18:34) There's no hope for you. Your life is basically ruined. It's management or we cut the organs out. None of it makes any sense by their own data. And this, this little perspective shift changes everything.   Michelle (18:41) No.   My God, this is so important. It's so important that people hear this because I think that we just take it for what it is for truth, absolute truth. When we go and I've had, I've had the same situation for my irregular periods, but you know, it could be anything. And then you're going and you get an answer that, you know, just doesn't seem to feel right. And you talk about the possibility to cure diseases. Can all diseases be cured?   Josh Dech - CHN (19:12) Yeah, it's really interesting because I like to throw that question out there because the word cure is sort of a dirty word in the Western world. It's not something they are. And most doctors are because it's a huge claim to make. I cannot legally in my practice, because I'm not a medical doctor, right? I work with doctors, I'm a physician's consultant, and that's all great, but I'm not a doctor. I cannot legally use the words cure, treat, or heal in the context of what I do. But what I can say is this.   Michelle (19:20) Yeah, people are afraid of it. Yeah. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (19:43) I believe all diseases have a root. Disease is not innate to your biology or DNA. We even talk about genetics, right? Let's go back to the genetic weak link of bowel disease. Sure, you get five people in a room, Michelle, you expose everybody to mold. One gets really bad periods. One gets Crohn's or colitis. One gets asthma. One gets Parkinson's disease. Another one gets nothing. Because when your genes are exposed, say dysbiosis, it puts stress on the genetic links, the genetic chain.   When you're toxic or infected, it puts stress. There's a study called neutrogenomics, which is nutrients and genetics and their correlation and reactions together were depleted. So these genes are getting stretched and pulled on the chain. The weak link is the one that snaps first. So there's no doubt there's a genetic component to bowel disease or what you're dealing with, but there are things that are stressing that chain. If you can pull down the stress and give your body what it needs to simply function normally, you're going to be just fine.   Michelle (20:28) Mm.   Josh Dech - CHN (20:42) Your body's gonna do what it has to do. It's gonna heal itself. And these quote genetic conditions sort of just go away because they were never really genetic. It was just exploiting what may have been a weak link. You go, well, I had my gene tested. I've got the MTHFR, so I can't methylate. I can't do this. Every form of natural nutrients that comes from the soil, that comes from animal meat, that comes from the earth in any way, your body will use a methylate.   It's all the artificial or fortified versions. It's the folic acid. They spray on the grains and crops. It's not the actual nutrients from earth. It's the artificial stuff you can't use. So don't beat yourself up about it. Just grow your own food.   Michelle (21:11) Mm -hmm. Right. Correct. Yeah.   Ooh, I love that. It's so true and it's so nice to hear it put in that way for people listening to this that's a huge issue for a lot of people trying to conceive because for so long, they've been having folic acid and also if they're eating grains, even if they don't want folic acid, it's kind of like shoved in our faces. So we're forced to eat it. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (21:41) Yes, and folic acid is basically poison. I mean, we know, right? Tested like MTHFR, popularized gene, there's a snip in there, changes your morphology, how your genes will activate. 44 % cannot use folic acid, but doctors give folic acid to 100 % of women who are pregnant. Why? If you can't use the folic acid, it actually can cause blood pressure issues. It can cause all kinds of issues, cognitive impairment, anxiety, depressive issues, gut issues.   Michelle (22:02) Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (22:10) probably fertility issues, right? I can't speak to that one specifically, but I would guess through the chain of events. Well, there you go. So you're being given a drug that almost 50 % of the population can't, I call it a drug because it's artificial, that you cannot use that can cause other health complications. Well, no wonder you have gestational diabetes. No wonder you have hypertension. No wonder you have these, you know, prenatal conditions. The Western world treats pregnancy like a disease state. You are sick. We have to treat you, but it's not.   Michelle (22:14) Yeah, yeah, it does. For some people, yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (22:40) In the inflammatory markers you get from pregnancy, all these different things, they're actually normal and they're actually a biological beneficial process, which is also connected to your gut, oddly enough.   Michelle (22:52) Everything's connected to your gut. So talk to us. It really is. The more I do this, the more I realize this. It's kind of like just everything's the center. Even Chinese medicine, the spleen and stomach are the digestive couple. And every couple, there's like a yin and yang pair of organs. Every one of them has a different direction. The spleen and stomach is the center. It's kind of like where everything comes from.   Josh Dech - CHN (22:54) All of it.   Mm   Michelle (23:20) So it really is so important and that's, it really comes down to your gut health. So talk to us about like what people can do and really how like kind of take us through like the inflammatory process or the anti -inflammatory approach to your gut.   Josh Dech - CHN (23:38) Yeah, first thing is we just have to remove the nail. That's it. You know, your body is reacting to so much and I describe it like this. Picture your body's like a cup of water. I I got a cup of water next to me here. So picture this cup gets full and fuller and fuller. As the cup starts to fill up, you start to develop symptoms. I'm having menstrual issues. I'm having PMS. I'm having some infertility. I'm having some skin issues. I'm not sleeping. I'm having anxiety, depression, gut issues, et cetera. These are the symptoms you develop.   Michelle (23:41) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (24:07) Now when that cup finally overflows, you now go into your doctor and they say, you have this disease. Cause they're looking at everything that's gotten wet. go, yep, this is just a condition you have. The floor is wetiosis. All right. And they go, this is just what it is. We don't look at what led to it. We don't look at what contributed instead. We go, yep, it's just part of your disease process. It's part of your body. Here's some management for your symptoms. This is numbing cream on the foot. That's what it is. Rather than taking the nail out.   Michelle (24:07) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (24:35) And so we're looking at disease, understand something's filling your cup. And this is how we can begin reversing it. Number one, we have to look at one, what is filling the cup? So this is going to go back to your environment, back to your gut, your microbes, that when the defenses came down, the moat was empty. What came into the castle? That's number one. Number two, how do we drain the body? Cause everyone talks about detoxing. You'll hear 10 day detox, seven day detox, 24 hour detox is always something to sensationalize. But there's all these detoxes.   Michelle (25:01) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (25:04) Yes, your body is detoxing constantly on its own and yes, sometimes it can use some support. There's a good reason for that. But something we often miss is called drainage. Detoxing is gathering the trash. Drainage is bringing it out to the curb. So yes, your liver, your kidneys, your bile ducts are one that most people miss, gallbladder and bile ducts. That's one of the most crucial parts of healing and inflammation. We have to look at your skin, your sinuses, your lungs.   Michelle (25:19) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (25:31) Lymphatics, even your blood, these are all drainage or detox pathways. They help move and transport and organize toxins, but also get them out of the body. So sinuses, skin, lymphatics, et cetera. This is drainage. If we don't have this properly supported, I don't care how many parasite protocols you take or antifungal meds you take or how many detoxes you do. If it's not getting out of the body, it's just moving or it's still collecting. And so it's continuing to fill your glass. Right?   Michelle (25:56) Right.   Josh Dech - CHN (25:58) Your doctor looks at all the things filling up your glass. They don't use it to figure out what's happening or what's causing it. They use it, what's called diagnostic criteria. So they are looking simply to check the symptoms, do their tests in order to meet what fits this box. Once you have enough checks to color in this box, we then can give you these drugs in this order. If they don't work, snip, snip, here's your surgery. And the idea is again, disease is innate.   Michelle (26:23) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (26:25) You just have these symptoms, therefore you just have this condition. There's nothing we can do. And here's how we'll manage. Rather than looking at your symptoms that led to the disease in reverse engineering the process, what is filling your glass and preventing it from emptying? If Western medicine did that, they'd be bankrupt, which is probably why they don't. Because you're talking the three biggest industries, Michelle, in North America are healthcare, so hospitalization, health insurance, and pharmaceuticals.   It makes up 18 % of the entire US GDP. So 18 % of the entire income of the United States of America is healthcare. Yet they are the sickest country on earth. Six out of 10 adults have some kind of chronic illness or chronic inflammatory condition. Six out of 10, it's $4 .7 trillion a year to manage disease. It'd probably be more like 50 to 100 billion. So pennies on the dollar really, if you actually cured everything.   So there is a huge financial incentive to not actually hear anybody. That's messed up.   Michelle (27:26) That's so crazy. I mean, I think it's so messed up. I mean, it's really messed up. think a lot of people know this and there's definitely a lot of money moving around between the food industry and the pharmaceuticals, which I mean, you know, like why.   Josh Dech - CHN (27:44) Yeah, yeah. You get a CEO who goes from Bayer Monsanto, who by the way, just paid out $11 billion with a B, $11 billion in lawsuits because their glyphosate product caused so many cases of cancer. There's over a hundred thousand lawsuits pending. They paid it over 11 billion with another 30 to 40 ,000 lawsuits still pending. And guess what? They're still allowed to use the product. Even though it's been proven hundreds of thousands of times to cause cancer and other dangers.   because super unethical, we live in a horribly unethical system based on lobbying. Get one more for you. There's a chemical called chlorpyrifos. It's an organophosphate. Organophosphates are nerve agents. If you've ever heard of sarin gas, for example, used in the Tokyo subway attacks in the eighties in Syria against the Halabja people, it's a nerve agent. It is a toxin, organophosphates, particularly sarin gas.   Michelle (28:15) It's so unethical.   Yeah.   Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (28:41) Well, there's 800 plus organophosphates of the same class, these nerve agents that are used on our food. One recently was re -approved for use called chlorpyrifos just back in November 23 or December 23, was re -approved for use. Well, this was being explored in the 1930s and 40s by Nazi scientists as chemical warfare on humans, but they put it in our food. Then you get people going, well, the poison makes the dose. Okay, I get that. Yeah, if it was.   Michelle (28:47) Mm   man.   Josh Dech - CHN (29:09) microns of chlorpyrifos, your body would get rid of it. But we got over a billion pounds of chemicals every year on our food that we consume. We've actually consumed now four times more pesticides per person than we used to in the 90s, because there's so many more of them. The poison that know, the dose makes the poison. Yes. But we've also 17 times our dose, of course, we're so toxic, of course, everyone's poisoned. And so these are the things we have to consider.   Michelle (29:34) Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (29:37) But circling back, these are the toxins contributing to your glass filling up. So you want to empty the bathtub, turn off the tap, right? So let's put a hole in the toxins. Simple as the clean 15 and dirty dozen list from the EWG, Environmental Working Group. Go organic where you can, or just don't buy it, right? There's a lot of other ways. It doesn't have to have the organic label. I don't buy all organic. There's a farmer's marketing in my house.   Michelle (29:45) Yeah.   Right.   Josh Dech - CHN (30:02) And I talked to the farmers, they do one fungicide spray at beginning of the year on the ground, and then all their crops grow. That is a risk reward ratio I'm willing to accept. It's the same price, but there's one spray instead of the average strawberry has like 12 pesticides on it. And so that's what I'm willing to accept for myself. And I will adapt to the rest. And so turn off the tap, start changing out the toxic environment, start making some of these better modifications. One of the top toxins or pollutants for humans is actually recirculated indoor air. Open your windows.   Michelle (30:03) Mm   Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (30:32) Just where you can, open them up, let some fresh air come in. And this we can start, this is turning off the tap. Then we can open our drainage and detox pathways. And then we can begin removing the invaders that came into the castle. And then we can begin repairing and rebuilding the walls and everything that was destroyed after these invaders came in. That's sort of the process affectionately typically referred to as the five Rs. There's sort of an acronym we can use in there for that, but that's the idea.   Michelle (30:33) Hmm, yeah.   Yeah. And a lot of people just say, then I'll just get probiotics. But then I, I'm learning, you know, that not are created equal. So I wanted to get your thoughts on that. Like I just, the different types of probiotics, everything comes out. Another company says, ours is special because of this, that, and the other. Then there's a spore based probiotics, which are more likely to survive our entire tract. So.   Josh Dech - CHN (31:04) Mm.   Yes.   Michelle (31:26) I'd love to pick your brain on that.   Josh Dech - CHN (31:29) I'd love to sure. So spore based probiotics, they're more like seeds, and they're typically coded to get to the large intestine. This is where 90 % of your intestinal bacteria actually live is in the large intestine right where it connects to the small intestine and that whole area there. That's where most of them live. And so the spores will get there the like seeds that plant and grow trees that bear fruit. We have other probiotics, which you're right, not all are made equally, a lot of them will come in, they're dead, but you still can get benefits. If you think about   Let's go to pro, pre and post biotics, right? The three things I think we often get mixed up. I think of it like fish in a fish bowl. Probiotics are the fish, the living organism that swim around in the bowl. Prebiotics are fish food and postbiotics are what the fish poop out. If you look at your bacteria the same, they're your fish in your fish bowl, the living organisms, the probiotics are the fish. This is what moves around and engages with your body. They do so much for you. They produce vitamins and minerals and nutrients.   Michelle (32:04) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Josh Dech - CHN (32:28) help balance hormones and detoxify and help with your immune system. They do all kinds of great things, mostly through how they signal to the body. But then your prebiotics are what they eat. So this is going to be your fibers, it's going to be your carbs and starches, some proteins, there's going to be some things that they will consume, which creates the post biotics your body likes, the short chain fatty acids and minerals or the vitamins and all these things. And so we consume probiotics, a lot of them we eat are dead.   So you're still getting the postbiotic or the bacterial poop, if you will, of all the benefits, which come in, come out in a couple of days. It might be very short term and they're kind of out the door, but along the way they can have a lot of really good beneficial signaling to the body, to the immune system. It's like a radio signal. They come in and out beep, beep, beep, beep, they send signals back and forth. Your body makes changes. On the other hand, what a lot of people don't recognize is maybe if you have a condition like SIBO, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth,   Michelle (33:00) Mm   Mm -hmm.   Josh Dech - CHN (33:25) you have a bacterial overgrowth. Sometimes adding probiotics in, there are classes of bacteriums called bacteriocins, which will kill bacteria. So they might be beneficial in SIBO. For example, lactobacillus reuteri or rooteri, call it tomato tomata. But this one can act as a bacteriocin has been shown in clinical to be beneficial in a lot of cases for SIBO to reduce the bacteria. On the other hand, some might contribute to the problem. I had a client with parasites.   Michelle (33:42) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (33:55) And she was consuming a lot of probiotics, which were higher in histamines, which contribute to the issue because parasites also can create histamine issues. Even bone broth was bad for her gut because it's high in histamine. And so it made her issues worse. so considering we got probably a thousand, maybe 2000 species, seven to 9 ,000 strains of bacteria makes 15 to 20 million different bacteria. In fact, there's a hundred, think it's 130 times more DNA in your gut bacteria.   Michelle (34:07) Mm -hmm, right.   Josh Dech - CHN (34:25) than you actually have in the rest of your body. 23 ,000 genes or so in your human genome, 3 million genes inside of your bacteria. So you take this handful of probiotics out of 3 million different genetic strains, it's like a grain of sand on a beach. It may help, it may not. I wouldn't rely on them as a fix all. And there's a lot of ways in there where you can actually cause more problems. You could put black sand on a white beach and you're gonna notice it until it gets mixed in and disperses enough. It can create a problem. And so we have to really   Michelle (34:39) Yeah, yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (34:54) keep an eye on what we're putting into our body. I think throwing probiotics in sort of willy -nilly can lead to a lot of issues.   Michelle (35:02) Yeah. What about a Sporebase, which are better for SIBO? What are your thoughts on that?   Josh Dech - CHN (35:07) Well, spore based, see they're better for SIBO. I've heard that as well. I think my initial thought is look, they get to the large intestine, less so the small intestine. So we're not contributing to the small intestinal issues. But one of the contributors I do see of SIBO, for example, would be parasites. They tend to hang in the bile ducts, like we talked about there, the all important drainage pathways in the liver of the appendix and what's called the ileocecal valve. So right where your small and large intestine will actually connect.   Michelle (35:16) Mm   Mm   Mm -hmm.   Josh Dech - CHN (35:37) Parasites can hang out in these issues actually messing with your valves. So even if you have spores going into the large intestine, they can still backflow because the valves will say are broken or jacked up can get into the small intestine. And a lot of SIBO conditions are fecal microbes. So large bowel microbes getting into the small intestine where they should not be. And these areas can cause a lot of problems now too. So I don't know if I'd say they're better for or maybe just less bad then, but maybe it can contribute to the problem. It's hard to say.   Michelle (35:40) Mm.   Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (36:07) But ultimately, know, SIBO is a really nasty condition to have to deal with, but I've seen it as one of the roots that can develop into Crohn's or colitis as well, other bowel diseases.   Michelle (36:17) Wow. And what about parasites? So what are some of the things that you can do to, because a lot of times you won't see that in like more generic tests.   Josh Dech - CHN (36:27) Yeah, they're very difficult to detect parasites. Even some of the best testing you'll get for stool testing, you're 40 % accurate unless you're finding ovum, live worms or protozoa eggs, et cetera. You know, there's about a million different types of parasites estimated that are available on planet earth. About 1400 can infect humans and you know, it's like, well, I've taken ivermectin or I've taken babendazole or fembendazole some kind of Zol, which is supposed to be good for parasites and they can be.   Michelle (36:35) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (36:55) But of the 1400 types, you might not be targeting more than three or four. And again, if your drainage pathways aren't open, you're not really going to be successfully clearing stuff. And so we're looking at parasites. say testing is relatively inaccurate. We have to go by symptoms and even blood, blood chemistry. It's not something I'm an expert in, but I do know people who are very proficient in what's called functional blood chemistry. Well, they'll look at your blood work and go, definitely you have a parasite and here's where I think it is or what type I think it is, which   To me is like wizardry. I just have no idea. I'm not that good at blood work, but it's really amazing art. so testing is not amazing for them. Most doctors believe parasites are a third world problem because that's what they were told 20 years ago in med school. But look what we have, the level of immigration we have, the level of import export we have, the level of accessibility for traveling all around the world that we have. Maybe if they used to be, but they're everywhere now to the point where if you've got a pulse, you probably got a parasite.   Michelle (37:32) Mm   Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (37:51) The question is, it causing you a problem right now or not? Because parasites, fungi, bacteria, viruses, they all live in harmony in a healthy gut. With great great grandmothers, 1000 microbes. But now we've got 200 microbes, this dysbiotic state, these opportunistic parasites or fungi or bacteria now overgrow because they have the room to do so. Nothing's keeping them in check. And now they're a problem. So this isn't to say parasites are all bad. Sometimes they're very, very good.   Michelle (38:19) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Josh Dech - CHN (38:21) but they're now becoming problematic because we're all so sick.   Michelle (38:24) So what do you do and what are some of the symptoms that people can have?   Josh Dech - CHN (38:28) so many. So we look at parasites, again, going through symptomatology, I like that we bring this through, because symptoms often speak louder than testing. That's something you have to keep in mind. Again, a parasite test at 40 % accuracy can come back negative 10 times in a row. So we have to look at, you know, abdominal pain. Do you have pain when you palpate or press around the liver, the gallbladder? Do you have all your organs? So looking at tonsils, appendix, gallbladder, if you've lost those, there may be a parasite route.   Michelle (38:38) Mm   Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (38:58) back pain, hip pain, like joint pains, seasonal allergies or other allergies that seem to come up. If you have gut issues and gut symptoms, for example, that may be come and go. So every couple of weeks up and then they're down or seasonally, for example, this could be parasites due to their life cycles, high cholesterol or liver enzymes that are elevated, frequent sinus infections, anemia, because parasites will actually eat iron. They can eat   like lungs, liver, kidneys, they can eat iron, they can eat lymphatic fluids if you've got lymphatic issues, mumps chronically, tonsillitis chronically, these can be parasitic issues in nature. Even infertility. Parasites love especially female reproductive organs. So PCOS can sometimes be a parasitic issue at the root or a metabolic issue which may have a parasitic component because parasites can get to these areas in your body.   actually encapsulate them in a cyst or a tumor, hence cancers, which is actually a protective mechanism or thought to be protective, where it's trying to enclose these things in rather than DNA mutating and causing a problem. We can have anxiety, depression, hair loss, early hair loss, liver enzymes are elevated, think I mentioned that, psoriasis, eczema, really classic symptoms, rashes and hives, that's just a handful. There's probably 50 or 60 symptoms that could be parasites.   but we have to go back to context. You know, have rashes and hives, okay, well could be something else. There could be parasites. Let's look at the rest of the symptoms. I'm not saying if you have one of these things or all these things, I mean, if you have all these things, probably parasites, but if you just have a few, it could be something else, but I wouldn't rule parasites out.   Michelle (40:34) Mm   And what do you usually do to treat them?   Josh Dech - CHN (40:43) Great question. This is something that can be very finicky. Again, a lot of people I talk to, you're hearing this going, I've taken a parasite protocol, I've done a cleanse, it didn't help. You're trying to evict tenants from the building. Are the doors unlocked? And so if you're trying to get rid of parasites, is your drainage open? So we have to work on drainage support. What we do with clients, it's a combination of a lot of things. There's supplementation, there's nutritional, there's lifestyle. Sometimes it's a combination of acupuncture enemas, like coffee enemas.   Michelle (40:57) Mm   Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (41:13) There's a lot of different things we can utilize the open drainage pathways, but everyone's different. And it's something that it really should be done on a supervision. I know you're hearing this right now. Go, I can do that. I can do acupuncture might help you. It might not. It is, but I don't want you putting yourself in the hospital. I have to say that because we can move too many toxins too quickly. You can actually create a commonly known Herc's Heimer reaction, Herc's H -R -X. And this Herc's Heimer reaction is just   Michelle (41:13) Mm   Mm   Yeah, that's important.   Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (41:41) Basically, you're taking too many toxins, you're mobilizing them and your body can't get rid of them properly and you're making yourself very ill. So this is definitely a professional supervision issue, but these are things we can do. So number one is drainage in tandem with or post actually getting rid of or reducing your toxic loads for no longer, right? Turn off the tap. We have to open the drainage pathway so things can get out. We have to begin removing very systematically the problem. I've got clients say 10 of them who are taking the exact same parasite protocol for parasites.   Michelle (41:45) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (42:11) but what they're actually doing is that they're taking them 10 different ways, right? Some of them are tapering in one day on, seven off, one day on, six off, one and five. Some are doing full moon protocol. Some are high dose, some are low. Some are cycling through. Some are consistent dosing. Everyone's different based on their presentations and going the wrong way can make people very, very sick as well. So it's a bit of a tailored and catered process, but the gist would be drainage support.   antiparasitic, supporting what your body lacks or needs, mitochondrial support, so cellular health and cellular well -being, because that's really where drainage and detoxing starts, is at the cellular level, not the macro level so much. And this is sort of a brief overview of that might look like.   Michelle (42:55) So interesting. And another question that I have, a lot of times you'll hear about the keto diet and how I'm not big on fad diets in general, because it's like everything's customized, but you hear about the benefits for some people. The thing with that is that there's barely any fiber. It's really, really low in fiber. So I just wanted to get your take on that.   Josh Dech - CHN (43:05) Sure.   Sure. It was really interesting. Look at someone like Michaela Peterson, right? Does an amazing job with the lion diet, which is basically red meat, salt and water. I am not against it. I think it's a great therapeutic diet. I'm not sold entirely. I've met with some amazing carnivore doctors and specialists, but I will say I don't believe plants are inherently bad for humans. I do believe an animal based diet tends to be better, but the question has to be asked, is it the pesticides and the chemicals on our food that makes plants the problem?   Is it plants themselves? Is it the GMOs and the crops that never existed even 100 or 500 years ago that were not accustomed to eating? The arguments can be made for dairy, where humans have only really domesticated dairy animals for 10 to 15 ,000 years. So are we really adapted to eating dairy? Have we developed or evolved these enzymes and processes to properly assimilate dairy? So the argument about plants versus animal -based   I can put it on a very macro level without getting to the nitty gritty and say this. The bigger fish in the bowl, we talked about prebiotics, they eat fiber, right? The bigger fish in the fish bowl will eat first. If you have an overgrowth of bad bacterium, we'll say, we'll say opportunistic, they're causing you problems and they eat first, they poop out problematic things. So going to the lion diet, you're not gonna get nearly as many microbes eating meat, for example, as they would fibers or starches or sugars. So if you cut those things out right away,   you've reduced the poop or the byproducts, we call them endotoxins of these microbes by simply cutting fiber. And so you may be starving some out, you may be just not getting over gross, you may be no longer contributing to poisons or toxins so much. And there's two arguments to be made. Well, the beef or the animal might filter the toxins. The other argument is what's called bio magnification, which is where it condenses all these toxins in the tissues, which you then consume. But you can't argue with the data, millions of people.   Michelle (44:49) Mm   Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (45:15) all over the world go carnivore or keto and feel better. The question is, do I believe carbs are inherently bad for you? No. Do I believe they should be more sparingly? Yes, just simply biologically. but, but, but this is the big but, we have to understand that your current state of health and how it's utilizing what you're putting into it makes all the difference. You could put gasoline into a car and it's going to drive for miles. You put gasoline into a car that's on fire and it's going to make a bigger fire.   Michelle (45:19) Mm   Mm   Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (45:45) So it's not the fuel source necessarily that I believe is the problem as much as the body you're putting it into and what's going on on a microbial level.   Michelle (45:51) Yes. that's so important. And I think that, yeah, a lot of what you're saying is so important, but that's really the key crux of it is that your body and your body's condition and your snapshot in time at this moment has unique needs, even unique to five years ago, the same body, which actually it's a different body because the body changes all the time. So it is really important that you work with somebody.   Josh Dech - CHN (46:04) Yeah.   Michelle (46:17) and not do this at home on your own and not self -diagnose because it could be very tempting to do. This is great information, but just hold yourself back from self -diagnosing. Reach out to people like Josh. So actually my next question, if people do want to work with you, how can they reach you? How can they find out more about your work and what you do and get help with their own gut and inflammation?   Josh Dech - CHN (46:19) Yes.   Yeah, I'd love to be able to help Michelle. The quickest way to reach me, you can find everything you need through our website, gutsolution .ca. We got clients in 26 different countries and all the concurrent time zones. So don't worry about where you're located. We can help. That's gutsolution, all singular, .ca for Canada. You can find our podcast, Reversible, where it's about the gut. It's all how all things impact the gut and vice versa. Michelle, we had you record an episode there recently and it's how our gut and our world interact. It's called Reversible.   Reverse Able, the Ultimate Gut Health podcast. And there's also one we released recently about, I'd say six or eight weeks ago, it's called Reversing Crohn's and Colitis Naturally. And it's all about just Crohn's, Colitis and the cruxes and the roots and how we actually get at the root causes of these. But all that can be found, the website, the podcast, contact, help information can all be found at gutsolution .ca.   Michelle (47:37) And how do you work with people?   Josh Dech - CHN (47:38) Yeah, contrary to what most people believe, we don't actually need to see you in person at all. Strictly through symptoms, I get photos if we need them. We'll have you take pictures of your fingernails, pictures of your tongue, for example. It's part of Chinese medicine, as you know, can give us lots of information. We look at blood work. We'll look at your symptoms. We'll look at you as an individual. And we'll spend, I'll spend 30 minutes to an hour on a first call. We get someone through the program and register. There's probably 100, 200 different questions.   Michelle (47:49) Mm   Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (48:08) Extremely thorough intake we do secondary interviews then we do programming and we actually work with you on a weekly basis for 16 weeks very hand -holding process and that's what it looks like because Dealing with bowel disease, know that things can change in an instant You can go from healthy to a flare or healthy to sick to constipation to diarrhea What your doctor does is here's a med see me in three to six months. We'll see how you're doing That doesn't help. You're barely managing and your body can be so finicky   Michelle (48:33) Mm Yeah. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (48:37) And so our job is 16 weeks. And I'll tell you, Michelle, we had a lady recently came out of our program was working not with myself, actually, with Curtis, one of our other specialists. And 16 weeks, she came out after 15 years. She was diagnosed in 2013, a couple of years of bowel disease before that. Her colon was so severe, she described it as squirrels with razor blades running around on her insides. So severe, they were on the cusp of cutting her bowels out. 16 weeks, she came back, her doctors jaw on the floor is like, I've never seen anything like this.   Michelle (48:58) my God, wow. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (49:06) perfect colonoscopy. had one little speck left that we're still obviously going to be fixing, but it took 16 weeks. That's it. And not everybody responds as well. Some respond quicker, but this is what's possible. And I just really want to encourage just if you're listening to this right now, you're like, I've got Crohn's colitis or even severe IBS. I've been told it's genetic autoimmune. There's no known cause. So much can be done. Just start with the website. There's podcasts on there. There's information on that. There's videos on there.   Michelle (49:14) Wow.   Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (49:35) There's so much about it that we just want to creak that door open for you and show you what's possible. But again, just head to gut solution .ca and do some diving.   Michelle (49:44) Awesome. Josh, this is amazing. Really, really amazing. And also so important. I can't even stress it enough. I see it a lot even in my patients that come in. and something that I think everybody listening to this, if you're trying to conceive,   you have to go check out Josh and listen to his podcast and learn more because I think it's just so valuable. So thank you so much for coming on today. This is great.   Josh Dech - CHN (50:07) Thank you.   It's been a pleasure, Michelle. And if I could leave one little nugget, if you're considering, if you're trying to conceive or have plans in the future, get ahead of the gut because you can, we talked about great grandma passing down this dysbiosis to you, you can pass down disease to your children. It'll be called genetic. I've seen babies, know, infants. I'm talking a couple of months to two, three years old with bowel disease because we just didn't know ahead of time that we need to be dealing with our gut issues before having children.   because these are the issues we can pass. All those opportunistic microbes, the fungi and parasites, they will come from you to your baby. And this goes both ways. The sperm quality has a lot more to do with it than we used to. We used to say, well, everything's up to mom. It is in development, but even the sperm quality, if mom or dad have gut issues, there's a much higher risk for your baby having some kind of issue down the road. And I just really want to encourage you, if you think there might be gut stuff where you know there's a diagnosis, start there.   long before conception, only will it help in your ability to conceive but to carry a baby to full term and have a healthy baby to give them the best possible future. That's where we start. We have to start in your guts.   Michelle (51:20) So important. Thank you so much, Josh.   Josh Dech - CHN (51:23) A pleasure, Michelle. Thank you for having me.    

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I speak to longevity expert Leslie Kenny. @lesliesnewprime   Leslie shares her personal journey of overcoming autoimmune diseases and infertility through patient empowerment and alternative therapies. She emphasizes the importance of partnering with doctors and exploring alternative treatments that resonate with individuals. Leslie's story highlights the power of lifestyle changes, such as an anti-inflammatory diet and the use of anti-aging molecules like spermidine in improving health and reversing the aging process.    Our conversation covers the topic of spermidine and its role in healthy aging. Spermidine is a compound found in our diet and produced by our gut biome. It is correlated with healthy lifespan and can be obtained from plants and fermented foods. Our conversation also touches on gluten-free options for spermidine, the importance of fiber in the diet, and the potential benefits of systemic enzymes.    Leslie also shared her personal experience with hypothyroidism and the importance of finding a doctor who will help you uncover solutions for your reproductive health.    Podcast Takeaways: Partnering with doctors and exploring alternative treatments can empower patients to take control of their health. Lifestyle changes, such as an anti-inflammatory diet, can have a significant impact on autoimmune diseases and overall health. Anti-aging molecules like spermidine and rapamycin have the potential to slow down the aging process and improve fertility. Maintaining a balanced hormonal system is crucial for reproductive health and overall well-being. Spermidine can promote cell renewal and recycling. Spermidine is correlated with healthy lifespan and can be obtained from plants and fermented foods. Fiber is important for the gut biome to produce spermidine. Finding a doctor who believes in you and is willing to explore your symptoms is crucial.   Guest Bio:   Leslie is a longevity expert, and co-founder of the prestigious Oxford Longevity Project, a non-profit that brings scientists together to discuss breakthroughs around the science of ageing and autophagy, which is our body's natural cell recycling system.   www.oxfordhealthspan.com - Use coupon code WHOLESOMELOTUS for 15% off all items!   https://www.instagram.com/lesliesnewprime/ https://oxfordlongevityproject.org       Learn more about my new book “The Way of Fertility” here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:   https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast Leslie.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (00:02) Thanks so much for having me, Michelle. It's a pleasure.   Michelle (00:05) So I would love for you to share your story of how you got into the work that you do today. And I know that you're very passionate. We just had a little pre -talk and I'm very excited to get started.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (00:14) You   Well, my story is one of patient empowerment, just like you. And it started, as it can with many women, with a fertility quest. So in my mid to late 30s, I really wanted to have a baby and found that I was having problems. So started with IUI, did three of those, didn't work, and then moved on to IVF.   And it was as I was doing my fifth IVF round with donor eggs, I might add, and being mixed race, I'll tell you, it's not easy to find a donor, you know? And it was a high stakes game, as it were. And right before embryo transfer, I began to notice pain in my hands. I was having trouble.   Michelle (00:54) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (01:08) using scissors, turning doorknobs, turning faucets. And I just thought, strange, I think this is probably what arthritis feels like. I better just have it checked out since obviously I want this IVF with donor eggs to go perfectly. And I went to the doctor, she ran some tests. I thought, you know, they'd say, you know, it's something, have steroids do something that I'd heard of before. And instead she called me and asked me to have a meeting with her in her office.   Michelle (01:17) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (01:38) and always a bad sign, right? If they can't explain it to you over the phone, and if it's not the nurse telling you, there's nothing to worry about. So I went and talked to her and she said, you do have arthritis, it's rheumatoid arthritis. This is where your body is attacking your joints. And here are some pre -filled syringes that you can inject into your belly, they're immune suppressants to basically   Michelle (01:40) Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (02:08) halt your immune system from attacking your body. And, and I immediately said, Hmm, don't I want my immune system to be strong? Like, don't I need that? And she said, well, normally you would, but in this case, it looks like your body is fighting cancer, except you're trying to destroy your own tissues. So I thought, okay, well, fine. Got the drugs. these are tiny diabetic needles. It'll be okay.   And then she said, but you also have something else. You have lupus. And that I'd never heard of. It was almost as if she'd said, you you have funny tree disease or something. It just made no sense to me. I didn't know what it was, had never heard of it. And I said, what's that? And she said, another autoimmune disease. And I said, okay, so what's the prescription for that?   And she said, unfortunately, there isn't a prescription for that. There's really nothing that we have right now to treat it. And you will slowly and progressively get worse. And I said, this is really not a good time for me to have this happen because I'm doing my fifth IVF with donor eggs. I'm waiting for embryo transfer. This is a terrible time. Can't we do something?   something else, anything else? Is there anything I can do? No, there's nothing you can do. Like, could I do my diet, my sleep? No, there's nothing you can do. Well, but what about this round? You know, I've done a lot to tee this up and a lot of money has gone into this. As you probably know, I've put in over a hundred thousand US dollars at this point in time into all of these treatments. And she said, I wouldn't do it. Don't do it.   you have a good five years left. And I thought, okay, well, that's a big statement to make. And I was so gobsmacked by it.   Michelle (04:08) That's crazy.   Wait, wait, She was saying you have five years left to live? Is that what she was saying?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (04:16) That's how I interpreted it. That's how I interpreted that if I, if this was successful, if this round was successful, I would only be able to parent this child for five years or four years, I guess, as it were. And I, it was a lot to process. you know, if you're a patient and you're told you have one thing that's a lot to take on, you know, and then you're thinking about.   the treatment protocol and the things you have to do. And I think already, if it's not a tablet to swallow, but you're injecting yourself, that's another big thing to take on board. Then an illness that you've never heard of before where they say there's no treatment, there's no cure, and then she says five years left. I'm thinking in the back of my mind, thinking, have this, I want to become a mother. I have this.   cycle I have to go through, we're going to embryo transfer. My uterus has to be in good shape. What are you doing? What are you saying? How does this impact that? Because I've got acupunctures lined up for embryo transfer, right, before and after. And so I did have at least the presence of mind to say to her, can I, well, could this be a false positive? She said, no, we've done multiple types of tests.   Michelle (05:11) Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (05:35) and they all come back consistently indicating that you have these diseases. So then I said, can I test again? And she said, she shrugged her shoulders and said, sure, it's your insurance. So I vowed then and there that I would test again. And in the meantime, I would do everything possible. didn't matter what it was, whether it was my in uterine massage, which I did, or visualization, which I did.   Michelle (06:00) Mm -hmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (06:05) or trauma work, which I did, or, you know, new therapy, intravenous immunoglobulin transfusions, which I did, an anti-inflammatory diet. I was gonna do it all. I was gonna throw the kitchen sink at it. And any woman who is trying to get pregnant knows exactly where I was and that feeling of, I've gotta make this happen. And I will just pull out all the stops. We're doing a full court press, right? And...   And so I did all those things and I came back within six months for a regular sort of review with your doctor. She opened the folder and she clearly not looked at the results ahead of time. And she said, well, look at that. You, don't have lupus and you don't have RA. And I said, would you like to know what I did? And she said, no, that's okay.   Michelle (06:54) What?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (07:04) And I said, well, that is, you know, that's pretty, that's pretty groundbreaking, right?   Michelle (07:11) Yeah,   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (07:12) so in any event, I was so, I was so shocked by all of this and, really for me, the penny dropped that doctors don't know everything that we treat them as if they must, that they are the Oracle and that they are the, the guide to whom we can outsource our health problems.   Michelle (07:23) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (07:35) But in fact, we have to work in partnership with them. And sometimes they're not willing for insurance or liability reasons to talk about or consider alternative therapies that might work. But we patients have the opportunity to explore those things that resonate with us that might have a meaningful impact. so my journey has really begun   Michelle (07:38) Yes.   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (08:04) as a patient advocate, really telling other women, you have more power than you think to move the needle on your health. And as a matter of fact, the things that you do might even be more important than what happens when you go to your acute care doctor, right? When you go into the doctor's office or into a hospital. And it has then...   taken me on a journey all the way to Oxford, England, where I ended up meeting a wonderful group of scientists here, a number of whom I helped fundraise for their companies for, all in the regenerative medicine space, and some of whom I've worked on longevity, healthy longevity advocacy.   other scientists whom I've worked on to bring an interesting anti -aging molecule called spermidine to market. So those are the...   Michelle (09:04) Yes. Is that, that's, that comes from   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (09:10) We can get it from wheat germ. We can get it from mushrooms. can get it from a huge variety of foods that are all plants. Essentially, if you want spermidine, it's almost exclusively in plants. only animal source is chicken liver, which is ironic because, of course, I remember my mother saying, you have to eat chicken liver. So moms do know, right? They've got a wisdom.   Michelle (09:19) Mm   Mm -hmm.   Yes.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (09:36) But it comes from plant sources. We also make it in our tissues. We moms make it in our breast milk. When we give it to our babies, it's there to help them grow. Men, of course, make it in their seminal fluid. is in there because DNA wraps itself around spermidine. And it's very tightly wound.   Michelle (10:00) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (10:04) Normally DNA is wrapped around something called histone bond. It's too big to really fit into semen. And it's also there in semen as an anti -inflammatory because it turns out that when men make sperm, it's a high reactive oxygen species event. Women and men can both make it in our gut biome as well. so those would be the main, the three sources would be from our tissue production.   Michelle (10:27) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (10:33) And that falls, that declines dramatically similar to the decline in production of estradiol, progesterone, testosterone, melatonin as we get older. And then the second area is the microbiome and then third is from our food.   Michelle (10:51) So interesting. So let's go back and talk about what, what do you think it was specifically that changed? Like, what do you think happened with your body? Because you came into the doctor and you had all the signs that showed that you had two different autoimmune diseases that she could pick up. And then you changed your diet, you changed your lifestyle. You really went through so much. and of course it's hard sometimes to figure out exactly what specifically, but now that you know what you know, and this is   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (11:03) Yeah.   Yum, yum.   Michelle (11:21) the work that you're doing. What are some of the things that come to mind?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (11:22) Hmm.   I went on an anti -inflammatory diet. So one of the first things I did was I researched a lot about both of these illnesses and I could see that inflammation was part of the root cause. And I'd heard about a diet called the Zone Anti -inflammatory Diet. This was popular in the early 2000s. And so I did that and that had a high emphasis on omega -3fatty acids.   on extra virgin olive oil. These are anti -inflammatories. It had a high emphasis on plants. And so my diet changed dramatically from more meat and charcuterie, sort of salami, these types of things over to plants. I also eliminated things which were known to be inflammatory triggers for me. So I had an allergy test done.   I could see that dairy was a problem, gluten was a problem, eggs happened to be a problem, which was a shame because I loved eggs. But we can't eat them every day and think the body won't notice. We have to kind of mix it up and have a diverse diet. So I essentially removed the inflammatory triggers to the immune system. I added in things that were naturally anti -inflammatory, like the omega -3s. And at the same time, when I did the intravenous immunoglobulin,   Michelle (12:44) you   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (12:50) I reset my immune system and there were studies in, there were small groups of patients with both rheumatoid arthritis and lupus who had done IVIG already in 2004 when I was diagnosed and I could see it work for them and I sort of felt like I have nothing to lose. It's kind of this or I wait for the inevitable.   And I did have people tell me, don't do the IVIG, because this was the time of mad cow disease. And people were quite concerned about prions, these proteins in blood plasma. And they were worried that you might be able to get that or hepatitis C. These were things that had been transmitted through transfusion products previously. But I still felt that, what, five years?   Michelle (13:25) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (13:49) I have nothing to lose. So I'm so glad that I did do that. know that everyone has to weigh up the risk -benefit analysis of any new treatment and their own situation. But for me, that was a decision that I made, and I'm so glad I did, because I spent 20, my insurance company spent $24 ,000 US on two transfusions, eight hours in total. And I have   Michelle (13:52) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (14:19) Going into remission meant that I have foregone over a million US dollars worth of immune suppressing drugs or chemo drugs because often we autoimmune patients get moved on to methotrexate, which is a chemo drug. I've not had to do any of those over these 20 years. And of course, I also don't live in pain and I don't.   Michelle (14:29) Mm Right.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (14:45) live in fear of because I'm suppressing my immune system, I have to avoid social situations where people might have a cold and give it to me and compromise my immune system. So it was a fantastic outcome for me. It's not one I think a lot of people hear about, but I think they should.   Michelle (15:06) for sure. I mean, it's good to hear everything. And I agree with you that everybody has to really assess their own personal situation. I think, I believe in the innate intuition that's kind of like our body's intelligence speaking to us, just like it does when we have an allergy or we feel some things off when we eat something. So I think that that is a really important component to that. And it's the thing that spoke to you when you were at your doctor's office, because it,   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (15:20) Yeah, agreed.   Yeah.   Michelle (15:36) You could have just said, okay, I'm going to completely bypass any questions that I have and fully just accept everything that I'm given. But something inside of you said, wait, hold up. Let me just do this again. Let me look at this. me think about this. So I really believe in that. think that is so important and important for people to hear because so often we do that. We bypass our own internal judgment and knowing.   You said something important is partnering up with your provider so that it's not an all or nothing. Of course you're going to utilize and you did, you got benefit from getting those tests because that woke you up to doing so many new and amazing things in your own life and implementing a better diet and so on. As far as Omega -3 goes, this is just something that I've been hearing of late.   that some of the supplements go rancid and that it makes it worse. it, have you heard about that?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (16:36) Yeah, I've heard that. Yeah, and apparently what you need to do is take this supplement and put it into the freezer. And if it gets cloudy, that is what I've heard is that then that's not good. It's supposed to remain clear throughout. I'm not an omega -3 fatty acid expert. I have lived for a number of years, very nearby one here in Oxford, Professor John Stein.   Michelle (16:45) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (17:05) who's done a lot of the research on mental health issues and omega -3s and how important they are for brain health. But yeah, I think, you know, get it from your diet first and foremost. Fatty fish is a great source, right? Yeah. Salmon, if we, you haven't already eaten all of it. Yeah.   Michelle (17:18) Right. Good fish. Yeah.   Wild caught, yeah. Yeah, I know. It's so crazy. Well, also just the mercury in some of the salmon, you know, the chemicals, but wild caught, I always say just.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (17:33) Yeah, wild caught. Yeah. And also anchovies, mackerel, sardines, right? The small fish are a really good source of omega -3 fatty acids. And those tend not to have the mercury. Obviously, if we're trying to get pregnant, mercury, definitely not your friend. So yeah.   Michelle (17:38) Sardines, yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah, for sure. I always say, you know, if you're not going to have it when you're pregnant and if you don't have it when you're trying to get pregnant because tuna, for example, they always caution not to have that because of the high mercury, but you don't want that in your system if you're trying to conceive. So for I was very intrigued by your story and I was also intrigued by what you do because when you think about egg quality, sperm quality and really reproduction,   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (18:02) Yum. Yum.   Hmm.   Michelle (18:18) you think anti -aging, that's like ultimately anti -aging in a nutshell. Like that's really what I do for people that I work with. And it benefits me because I'm like, okay, you know, I'm just going to apply a lot of these things as I learn. it definitely, but that's what it is. It's anti -aging. Like I'm big on meditation, which has also been shown take our clocks back, but food and diet and certain supplements,   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (18:20) Mm -hmm. 100%. Yeah.   Yeah. Yeah.   Michelle (18:46) can actually shift and slow down your aging or sometimes even like reverse your biological clock. And I know you're the expert in this specific topic. So I'd love for you to talk about that and what has been discovered and seen in this subject.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (18:57) Sure.   So when we are at our peak health is when we are reproductively capable. And we visually know this when we go out and we see a woman with glossy long hair, with long eyelashes, with healthy radiant skin, of healthy body weight, we know that that is someone who is   who is really attractive and why are they attractive? Because they are at their reproductive height. And interestingly, all of the things I have described are also linked with your spermidine levels. And so that's quite interesting. But also, your hormones are in perfect balance when you can reproduce and that includes not just the usual female sex hormones,   Michelle (19:36) Mm   Mmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (20:01) but also your thyroid hormones. So I'm also a Hashimoto's survivor as well. And so I'm a hypothyroid patient and that is also really important. So it's got to be in perfect balance then. And one of the things that happens with some of these anti -aging molecules is that they extend fertility.   Michelle (20:07) Mm   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (20:28) partly by reversing your age, but they will start the reproductive cycle back up for some people. And it kind of depends how far away from menopause you are. But we've certainly had clients who've said, what happened? I've been in menopause for two years and I've gotten my cycle back. And...   On the one hand, want to say, congratulations, that's great. But they're thinking, this means I can't wear white trousers now, right? And I thought I was done with the pads and the tampons. So I know it's a little bit of a double -edged sword. We women are often thinking about, how do we get rid of our cycles? But in fact, they are nature's way of saying that we are in peak health and are capable of bringing another life into this world.   Michelle (20:55) Hahaha   Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (21:22) You know, we do have to bear that in mind. Of course, the same is true for men. And we know there's a problem with testosterone declining in young men, whether it's due to endocrine disruptors in our food and our water supply, toxins in the air. There is a challenge to men as well. And we do want to see them at their reproductive best in order to be at optimum health, too.   And that is also something that these geroprotectors, these senolytic drugs, these anti -aging molecules can do. They seem to restore fertility in men as well as women.   Michelle (22:03) Amazing. And so let's break it down for people who have never heard of these molecules and these supplements and spermidine. So take a step by step, like, so that people listening can understand what it is.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (22:07) Yeah.   Sure. OK. Well, first, me just say that there are scientists believe that there are 12 reasons why we get older. And these are known as the hallmarks of aging. And they include things that you and your listeners will have heard of before, things like inflammation, leaky gut, stem cell exhaustion or dysfunction, mitochondrial dysfunction.   So, you know, where you have no energy. Telomere shortening. So telomeres are at our in caps and they limit the number of times that we can replicate ourselves. So all of these reasons why we get older, scientists have looked at different molecules that can inhibit those, you know, us going down those pathways. And they have a list of these molecules that   inhibit certain numbers of molecules. And the two that do the most are one called rapamycin, which is a bacteria, and the other one is spermidine, which we manufacture ourselves, like I said, in our gut, in our tissues, and also we get from food. But importantly, it is found in both breast milk and in sperm, and it's so necessary for the survival   the start and survival of the next generation, that it's also in the endosperm of all plants. So these two molecules, rapamycin and spermidine are kind of the darlings of the anti -aging set. And one of spermidine's superhero powers is that it activates cell renewal and recycling.   So if we think about staying in perfect health, one of the first things we want to do is make sure that we can do is every day oven cleaning, right? And the cells do have that function. Maintenance, exactly, exactly. Now, when we're young, it happens naturally and we don't think anything of it, but as we begin to age, that process falters and the cells, the dysfunctional cells,   Michelle (24:16) Mm -hmm. It's a maintenance.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (24:32) which we call senescent cells, they begin to stack up. And the more of these senescent or zombie cells that we have, the less well the other cells function. And I sometimes say that these zombie cells are a bit like your uncle Ted who has too much to drink at a wedding, and he begins to say inappropriate things.   Michelle (24:45) Mm   you   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (24:56) and do really silly stunts and you just think, okay, we got to get Ted over with pot of coffee in the corner away from everybody else or he's going to ruin the party for everyone else. This is what senescent cells do to you. You have one senescent cell and it begins to leak inflammatory contents to the other cells nearby and zombie -izes them and does the same to the other cells. It's a cascade effect.   Michelle (25:09) Mm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (25:25) That is what spermidine can actually, one of the things it can help with in particular with immune cells, it can prevent those immune cells, well rather it can rejuvenate senescent immune cells and that is the work that was done at the University of Oxford.   Michelle (25:43) That's amazing. you moved there to work with them in the research?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (25:48) Well, I came here anyway. I came here because my ex, now sadly my ex, but we have two wonderful children together. He was from Oxford and moved here to be closer to his family and still close to them and absolutely fell in love with the town and just the vibe. University towns are definitely my kind of place.   Michelle (26:09) Hmm. That's nice.   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (26:18) Just the scientific rigor here in the life sciences, it's phenomenal. It's really impressive.   Michelle (26:29) That's amazing. so the two things you're saying are spermidine and rapamycin. and so spermidine is something that you could take from supplements, but not so much rapamycin.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (26:39) You can't, no, not rapamycin, no. It's not something you're going to find in food. So it was basically isolated on Rapa Nui, which is one of the Eastern islands. And one of the pharmaceutical company, a researcher basically took it back home to the United States and it was later researched and found to do.   some really amazing things, one of which is that it can suppress the immune system. And this is important for people who have organ transplants because the tissue match is not perfect and their bodies necessarily want to reject any foreign material in their bodies. So if you give these patients immune suppressants to stop the rejection of the organ, they can live quite nicely with   Michelle (27:16) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (27:33) with that organ and continue in reasonable health, understanding that their immune system has been suppressed. Spermidine, though, of course, it's in our diet. It's something that our gut biome, if it's not been compromised by too much exposure to broad spectrum antibiotics, it can make. And in all of the longevity hotspots of the world, these populations of healthy centenarians, their spermidine levels are   high, they're similar to those of people who are in their 50s. And it's correlated with healthy lifespan. So I always recommend that people try to get more plants in their diet because you will get spermidine in your plants. If you can have fermented foods,   Michelle (28:12) Mm   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (28:29) If you don't have a problem with histamine load, and some people do for allergy, you know, if they've got allergies, but if you don't have a problem with histamine, then, you know, kimchi, sauerkraut, even things that are long matured like cheese. And a lot of people can say, I'm not allowed cheese because it'll make me gain weight. Well, yes, but there is also some spermatine there. The longer the maturity of the, of the cheese, the more it's been aged, the higher the spermatine content.   Michelle (28:45) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (28:58) Usually these are harder cheeses like a Parmesan or a cheddar. These would be good sources. And then for individuals who need extra, then a supplement makes sense. But I always say, get it first from your food. Please do not rely on a supplement, right? That's not doing, it's a disservice to think that you can just have a bunch of little pills on your plate.   Well, at first you're not going to get any satisfaction from it. But the other thing is that we need the fiber in those plants because that fiber, although our bodies don't, don't digest it, the gut biome needs that. And so you, you want to also feed the colonies in your gut biome that can make more spermidine for you. You know, we have these little pharmaceutical factories that make   Michelle (29:46) Mm   Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (29:54) everything from B vitamins and serotonin, one of the happiness hormones, and spermidine. So why waste it? actually in our supplement, the wheat germ derived one, we have a fructo -oleigosaccharide in there, an FOS, can selectively feed the bacteria that make spermidine. And the reason I want it there is because that's also what's in breast milk. In breast milk, you have   these fructo -aligosaccharides, you have spermidine, sperminine, another polyamine that actually helps turn good genes on, bad genes off, and then a precursor polyamine called putrescine. So you want some fiber, basically, that's the takeaway. Please, you want the fiber, yeah, exactly, because it's always better to, what do they say? Teach a man to fish, feed him for life, right?   Michelle (30:38) With the spermidine. Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (30:49) rather than just give him the fish. And that's kind of what we want to do. We want to train your body to make more of it, especially as you get older, because you'll have to eat increasing amounts of plant material to make up the shortfall of your tissue production of spermidine going offline.   Michelle (30:57) Right.   It's fascinating. So wheat germ is not necessarily gluten -free. For people who are gluten -free, what do they do?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (31:16) Well, OK, so yes, obviously, this is a problem in particular for autoimmune patients. And I went on the autoimmune paleo diet myself. I got rid of all gluten. I was off all lectins. Gluten is most famous lectin. So I had so many autoimmune patients getting in touch with me who'd heard my story that I actually looked for a plant source high in spermidine that was not a lectin. And I found it in an unusual strain of chlorella.   Michelle (31:28) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (31:45) So I went to Okinawa and had to test 120 different strains, substrains of chlorella to find the single one that had very high expression of spermidine. And we commissioned that to be grown in open -air freshwater ponds that are on land in Okinawa, but next to the ocean, but not in the ocean.   Michelle (31:46) Mm   wow.   It's wild.   huh.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (32:11) And that's what we use in our gluten -free product, which also has Okinawan autumn turmeric and has Okinawan lime peel. So lime peel has another autophagy activator. That's that cell renewal process. This autophagy or cell renewal activator is called nobilitan. And it's also in bergamot, in bergamot, the citrus fruit.   Michelle (32:16) Mm -hmm.   Mm   Mm -hmm. Right.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (32:38) And that actually, interestingly enough, is an Earl Grey tea. So if you're going to drink a tea, maybe some Earl Grey, you'll get some nobilitan in that. But that formulation was especially made for celiacs and for other autoimmune patients who really wanted the benefits of autophagy but couldn't use the defatted wheat germ version that we had brought to market first.   Michelle (32:42) wow. Interesting.   Mm   Mm   Amazing. Let me ask you a question. Have you looked into enzymes, pro proteleic? No, enzymes that are actually systemic enzymes that you have on an empty stomach. like things like wobe enzyme and yeah. And I think that there's another one, it's Nuzheim or there's another pretty well -known company. And I think it's from Europe.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (33:11) You mean like digestive enzymes or?   I've taken wovenzyme.   So yeah, wabenzim is German. I took that, gosh, maybe it's been around for decades and it does work. I took that from my, interesting. I took it, I didn't know that. I took it for joint pain. And so this was something that I was taking as a way to try and treat myself for the rheumatoid arthritis. So it didn't, it wasn't enough for that. I think it can help.   Michelle (33:40) It was beneficial for thyroid. Yeah, yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (33:59) more mild things, but definitely these are of benefit. And having a coach like you, who, you know, a trained practitioner who knows about all of the menu items that could be selected, you have the different tools, right? It's overwhelming as a patient. I mean, even just having my doctor say, just inject this one drug, that was like, whoa, can I get my head around the idea of injecting myself, right?   Michelle (34:13) Yeah, like different tools.   yeah.   Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (34:29) So you do need a guide and I think it's great that you've got that knowledge that you can share with your clients.   Michelle (34:37) Thank you. also, so for people who are interested, is it mostly the spermidine that you're focused on?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (34:45) Yes, so basically we are a small all -women company and you know, women -led companies, we get around 2 % of all venture capital funding. We don't have venture capital funding like our competitors. We very much are growing organically and are looking at really focusing on something that we know very well and making the most excellent   Michelle (34:49) Mm -hmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (35:13) product on the planet. And for me, with my group of advisors, this has been the right thing to do because we've had so many raw material manufacturers and suppliers come to us telling us, try this spermidine. And when we tested in the lab, we see that it's basically a tiny amount of wheat germ, and it's been cut like a street drug with synthetic spermidine.   Michelle (35:15) Awesome.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (35:42) And the problem with synthetic spermidine is, firstly, OK, I am biased against the synthetic because I watch my mother take the synthetic HRT. I'm so glad I'm on bioidentical HRT. But the synthetic has never been tested for safety or efficacy in humans. So I'm reluctant to bring a product to market that has not been tested. And when it comes to fertility,   Michelle (35:43) wow.   Mm   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (36:11) We know that in mouse studies where they have used synthetic spermidine, small amounts seem to help. But then when you give just a little bit more, it actually impairs fertility. so with these...   Michelle (36:22) wow. That's important. That's really important, you guys, to listen to that because that's huge.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (36:28) Yeah, that's huge. So the problem is finding the Goldilocks zone. Each of us is bio individual. We have different ethnic difference, genetic differences, age, body shape, height, and metabolism. All of these things mean you want the right amount for you, but we don't know what that right amount is when it comes to synthetic spermidine. With plants, however, it's not a problem.   because the body recognizes this, we have co -evolved with plant -derived spermidine for millennia. So when there's too much, the body says, right, we're going to turn this into spermine, which is going to help with turning good genes on, bad genes off with the DNA methylation. But this doesn't happen with the synthetic. I think that on the fertility front, as a woman, I would never make that.   Michelle (36:55) Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (37:21) I would never go for something that might possibly hurt my fertility.   Michelle (37:25) absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's a complete waste of time because you're trying to do all these other things and then you're going to take something that's not, that's a risk. and then I was curious, it says you were talking about it you were saying that sometimes they'll find it in certain mushrooms, cordyceps by any chance.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (37:30) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   Mmm.   it will be in cordyceps. It will be in all mushrooms and the ones that have the highest amount of swirmed in our shiitake, oyster and trumpet, but all mushrooms will have it. And, know, if you, if you don't have a problem with, mushrooms, know, this is fall, it's autumn. This is the right time to, you know, get some mushrooms into your stews and your soups and,   Michelle (37:43) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Awesome.   Mm -hmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (38:06) It's really, it's so, so good also because it's got vitamin D and we're just coming off of this period where we've soaked up the vitamin D from the sun over the summer, but now we're going into winter and we're gonna get less. So there are so many reasons to get it also a wonderful source of fiber.   Michelle (38:16) Yeah.   Yeah, amazing. So if people are interested and want to learn more and then also want to look at your products, how can they find you?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (38:32) They can go to Oxford HealthSpan, like the span of a bridge, it's all one word, .com. And if they're interested in learning more about healthy aging, we do bring breakthrough scientists who talk about things, not just about cell renewal or autophagy, but talk about other things as well. We also have them talk about, say, NAD, things like this. That's at the OxfordLongevityProject .org.   Michelle (38:56) Yeah.   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (39:01) And then I have kind of a side hustle helping my girlfriends with gray hair reversal. And that's on Leslie's new prime. Spermadine helps with that as well. It helps with hair health and eyelash and eyebrow health. That is on Leslie's new prime on YouTube. So L -E -S -L -I -E is how I spell my name.   Michelle (39:08) nice.   Fabulous. Leslie, this was fascinating. I really enjoyed talking to you. And also a key point, you got pregnant naturally at 40. Okay. important thing to mention. And I kept thinking about it as we're talking about, wait, wait, let's go. Let's go talk about that, even though it's kind of the end of the episode.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (39:34) I did at Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a, it's a happy ending. So, so the fifth IVF with the donor eggs didn't work. As a matter of fact, the embryologist said on embryo transfer, said, I don't know why you didn't use your eggs. Your eggs are better than this younger donor. I was like,   You're kidding me because I can't tell you how much I just sacrificed to pay for that. And, but, know, basically fast forward, I adopted a little girl from China. So I became a mom. become parents, you know, mother is a verb. It's not a noun. So that was, that was great. And as I was taking care of her, I still felt very, very tired and I couldn't understand what was going on, why I saw these other moms.   Michelle (40:02) wow.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (40:27) running around with scout troops, planting gardens, walking dogs, five children. You know, why? How do they do it? They're the same age and they have so much more energy. And I just, I did go to Dr. Google. I put in every symptom I had and it came up hypothyroid. So then,   The GP here in the UK said, no, you're in the normal range. No problem. I went to a private GP. No, you're normal. I went to a private endocrinologist. No, you're normal. And I just thought, I know I'm not. These doctors keep telling me I'm normal. I know. We patients always, if you do feel like that, follow your intuition, find a doctor who believes you, and we'll run the test. We'll work with you to uncover the mystery. It's like a murder mystery, right? So.   Michelle (41:09) Yes.   Yes.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (41:14) So I went on patient forums. Patient forums have been great help. Went there and people said, there is one doctor who will help you and he won't just look at your blood test. A lot of doctors look at thyroid problems and they only look at your blood test, your TSH, your T3, your T4. I went to him and he looked at clinical symptoms and he also ran a cortisol test. And he said that my...   Michelle (41:33) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (41:43) Cortisol was the lowest he had ever seen. It was so bad, he didn't know how I was standing in front of him. And I had classic cold hands, cold feet. Yes, my hair was thinning. I was exhausted. I was breathless as I went upstairs. I was losing the outer third of my eyebrows. These are all clinical symptoms of hypothyroidism. He then said,   Michelle (41:50) Wow.   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (42:09) What you need to do is address your adrenals first because of the cortisol problem, and then two weeks after that, take some thyroid. And because I actually do not convert levothyroxine, which is a standard thyroid hormone that most people get, like 60 % of all Americans will get that, but I can't convert it into the bioavailable.   Michelle (42:22) Mm   Right. Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (42:33) thyroid hormone known as T3. And your cell receptors only have receptors for T3, not for levothyroxine. So if you've been taking loads and loads of levothyroxine, you still feel wiped out. You probably are just like me and have a genetic, you're genetically challenged and you can take a test with Genova diagnostics. I think it's called the DIO2 genetic test, D -I -O -2. And   Michelle (42:35) Mm   Mm   Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (43:01) here in the UK cost about 75 pounds and you then can get T3 prescribed either synthetically or you can do what I do and Hillary Clinton also does. take something, we take a desiccated pig's thyroid. In America there's Armour, There's Armour, there's Urfa, there are a few brands and that within, you know, two to three weeks basically on that   Michelle (43:16) Is that armor? Yes, yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (43:29) Pregnant right away. No idea. Had not even, didn't check if I was ovulating. You remember the days when you're like, you've got a thermometer under your tongue and you're checking, am I ovulating? Could it be now? And all the calendar work that you've got to do when you're trying to get pregnant, none of that. It just happened. And I was so shocked. yeah. So my daughter, Marguerite, was born, you know,   Michelle (43:38) Yeah.   That is so crazy.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (43:57) Eight months later, was just one day shy of being premature, so I got her over the premature line. And 10 out of 10 on the Apgar score delivered at age 43.   Michelle (44:08) Amazing. mean, that is just incredible. I'm sure, I mean, I'm so excited about this episode because I just feel like it's mind blowing, first of all, just all the different stories. And it also covers things that I feel are really important. advocating for yourself as a patient. I mean, that is huge. And I think a lot of us have been in those kinds of situations. You said something that I was like, wow.   That's a quote, find a doctor who believes you. You know, because also getting different opinions is super important and it's a game changer. It'll totally change your whole journey.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (44:37) Yeah, yeah, yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah. Well, look what this doctor did for me. So what none of the doctors had realized with those other two autoimmune conditions was that I had my autoimmune, the system, the immune system had not only attacked my joints and my organs, but it had attacked my thyroid. And the way that he could see it was, you know, he could see with.   Michelle (45:07) Mm -hmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (45:11) that I had all the clinical symptoms, but with an ultrasound, he could see that I had only one eighth of a thyroid left. I had so little viable thyroid left. There was just nothing of the organ left. yet, because he didn't want to fall in line here in Britain, he was actually hounded by the British Medical Council.   Michelle (45:23) Wow, that is so crazy.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (45:35) Mary Schumann, the thyroid advocate in the United States, who's written a number of thyroid patient handbooks, actually got a campaign together to try to gather signatures. And he had tens of thousands of signatures from grateful patients. But the medical council actually wasn't listening. They wanted their protocol to be followed. And it had to be a blood protocol.   Michelle (45:55) It's so crazy to me.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (46:02) And this is the problem is the blood does not show everything. But of course, we patients get these data points 24 -7.We know if our hair is falling out, if we can't shift the weight, if we can't walk upstairs without getting winded, if we've got cold hands and cold feet, our partners know because they tell us, God, you're freezing. What's going on? So we need.   Michelle (46:06) you   Yeah.   Mm   Yeah, yeah, totally, totally.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (46:30) Our partners know it. If, if you happen to be sleeping with a doctor, maybe he can be a prescribed for you and he'll believe it because of the cold feet. but otherwise, you know, you have to rely on your powers of persuasion to find a doctor who's willing to go the extra mile with you and get curious. I only ask that I just find a doctor who's willing to get curious with you.   Michelle (46:35) Right? Yeah.   Yeah, I love that. I love that. Well, I mean, I could talk to you for longer than we have. But let's say this is amazing information, like really, really, truly amazing. And I love your story. And I love the way you truly believed in yourself. And that's something that I want to tell everybody who's listening, just believe in yourself because you know, and you know what? The body is so forgiving, way more forgiving than we give it credit for. It's just a matter of   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (47:21) 100%.   Michelle (47:22) figuring out like what is it exactly that it needs, like just figuring it out, its own way of communication. So thank you so much, Leslie, for coming on today.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (47:28) Yeah.   absolutely. Thank you for having me on. really appreciate it. It was lovely chatting with you, really fun. And keep going with your amazing work. Women need guides they can trust like you, who are willing to take the extra time to get curious and share the knowledge that you've gained over the years and the hard work you put in to get pregnant yourself, right?   Michelle (47:57) Thank you so much.    

In this episode of *The Wholesome Fertility Podcast*, I dive into the journey of trying to conceive in your 40s, focusing on how to balance realism with optimism. I debunk common myths around age and fertility, offering a comprehensive look at how aging affects reproductive health from both Western and Traditional Chinese Medicine perspectives. I'll share practical strategies to enhance fertility naturally, including dietary adjustments, lifestyle changes, key supplements, and the power of the mind-body connection. We'll also discuss how to navigate medical interventions like IVF, with a focus on protocols that prioritize egg quality over quantity. Whether you're just starting your fertility journey or looking to improve your chances of conceiving later in life, this episode is packed with insights, encouragement, and actionable advice to help you take control of your reproductive health.   Learn more about my new book “The Way of Fertility” here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:     [00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I am your host, Michelle Oravitz. And today, I am going to talk about a topic that I think is so, so important. And I'm sure so many people out there are listening to this and wanting to know more. So today I'm going to talk about all things getting pregnant in your 40s.   So, typically, what drives me absolutely crazy is hearing that you're considered a geriatric pregnancy once you're pregnant after age 35. So, I think that's absolutely ridiculous. And working in this field, I work with so many people either approaching 40s or after 40s and I just recently had a patient at 46 who is pregnant and thriving. So, there are so many stories out there that will definitely contradict. all of the fear and all of the questioning and the[00:01:00] doubts in women getting pregnant in their 40s. So I feel really passionate about this. If you are in your 40s and you're trying to conceive, I highly recommend you listen to this episode.   So I'm going to be realistic and optimistic at the same time when it comes to getting pregnant after 40. So the realistic aspect of is, the more time you're like living and elements of the earth, you are going to have natural wear and tear. You're going to also have a natural decline in certain factors of your body.   And That could be, I guess, the realistic news. However, the optimistic news is that we can actually do a lot to improve whatever it is to slow down the aging process. And we can do a lot also to improve the quality of our cells and, , Our cellular regeneration and also the energy overall chi [00:02:00] overall blood and really support our body and our body is forgiving.   It has been designed to be very forgiving. It's also been designed to reproduce. So if you give it the resources. Yeah. Then it will start to heal itself, , it will replenish itself, and it'll produce better outcome when it comes to reproductive health. So as far as the realistic part, let's talk about really what happens as women age. And when it comes down to really being in your forties. Now I will kind of bust a myth here because a lot of times they say women are the only ones that have biological clocks and men don't. And that is a myth. It's absolutely not true.   And as a matter of fact, nowadays, unfortunately, there's a lot going on that's also impacting sperm health, even for men in their reproductive age. So it does definitely impact, and get lower with age for men as well. So typically the things that will decline with age, [00:03:00] from a TCM perspective, traditional Chinese medicine perspective, women will definitely overall, their kidney chi, the kidneys in Chinese medicine are really, in charge of reproduction and they have very important roles from the moment the woman goes into puberty until afterwards towards the end they start to decline. So the reproductive health of the kidneys, there are two aspects of it. I've talked about this before you get pre heaven chi and post heaven chi. And so you can get The pre heaven chi is basically like genetics. It's what you're born with. It's essence that you're given really at birth. And you could look at like all the eggs that a baby has. If it's a female, it already is born with the eggs. And so all of that is there once a woman becomes more ripe, which is towards reproductive age When that aspect of her body starts to activate, some people are [00:04:00] born with a much better inheritance of qi and others have a little less. However, we also have what's called post heaven qi and post heaven qi is something that a lot of times the spleen and stomach are really in charge of and the spleen and stomach are in charge of digestion. So the things we eat, how we choose to live.   The amount of stress we have in our life, because stress can really deplete a lot of the qi, the energy. , qi, by the way, is life force vitality. So, all of those things come in and play a factor on how a person's overall health and overall reproductive health is impacted.   The good news, again, is that you can actually reverse your biological age. And this can depend on many different factors. And I'll talk about that as we continue. But some of the things to keep in mind is that, yes, as people age, [00:05:00] their overall ATP in the cells, which is really energy units in the cells, in the mitochondria, they lower with time. So that actually decreases. And when ATP decreases in cells, it actually decreases also the quality of the cells. And since egg cells are the largest cell in a woman's body, it's really important that they are robust with healthy mitochondria so that they can create a lot more ATP energy units because it takes a lot of energy to conceive. It takes a lot of energy for the egg to fertilize with the sperm to create a healthy embryo because it's a lot of force. And if you look at any seeds, really any seeds anywhere, and this is why eating seeds is actually so beneficial because seeds have a lot of what we call Jing. [00:06:00] Jing is essence. And so that essence is basically very similar to conception.   Because seeds have everything they need, all the nutrients kind of sitting there and their potential is there for growth. So they're primed and ready with the right environment to grow and sprout. So that is why one of the things we often suggest is to is to eat lots of seeds and people use seed cycling and I say either seed cycling or just eating seeds, either way you are going to get that essence and that jing through food. So your digestive health is really important as far as taking that quality and translating them into your eggs and translating them into your cells, essentially. And also over time as the egg quality declines, that impacts how much the follicles will grow, and it can impact the follicular [00:07:00] phase of the menstrual cycle, which is the first phase of the menstrual cycle from the time a woman gets her period. up until the time she ovulates and little by little that time can decrease and that can also be a reflection of how the follicles are growing and if they're maturing enough and it typically can decline with age.   Another thing that can decline is also the progesterone. So from either not ovulating or also from just the quality of the eggs because the outside of the follicle is the corpus luteum. So when the egg comes out of the follicle, what's left over is the corpus luteum, which is where the progesterone comes from earlier on.   And if a woman gets pregnant, that progesterone will last for a few months until the placenta starts to provide the progesterone. If a woman is low in progesterone, she may need to get excess. [00:08:00]progesterone extra from her doctor, or sometimes people try to do it bioidentical. So there are definitely many things that a woman can try and many interventions that she can try in order to help her conceive if she's at a later maternal age.   However, I've seen people conceive naturally at a later maternal age after 40 by implementing many lifestyle changes, including which really is at the heart of everything is supplements and diet, but died even more than supplements. And so if you have, say food sensitivities or you're, experiencing digestive discomfort or digestive issues that's going to impact the supplement absorption.   So it doesn't really matter if you don't take care of your gut health. It doesn't even matter what kind of supplements you have. And yes, maybe it's going to make a little bit of a dent, but it's not going to be as effective as if you get your digestive [00:09:00] system in order.   So what are things that can impact egg quality? So My suggestions here are multifold. I mean, there's so many different things that I can suggest, but I'm going to suggest the big ones that I think are the most crucial. And omega 3 fatty acids and antioxidants are really, really, really crucial. When it comes to egg quality, getting those healthy fats and healthy fats, like really, really good healthy fats, omega 3 fatty acids less omega 6, which are pro inflammatory, you want anti inflammatory, you want antioxidants, and really, an anti inflammatory diet would be the best bet when it comes to egg quality. So you want a lower inflammation because higher inflammation can decrease egg quality. You want to remove things like sugar, processed foods. All of those things can impact [00:10:00] inflammation, but it also can impact your gut and you want a good healthy microbiome so that you're able to really translate what's in the food, even if you're eating right into the nourished energy and the chi and the life force and the blood that will support egg quality.   You also want a healthy exercise routine. So you want like a good opportunity for your body to get oxygen because oxygen plays a really important role when it comes to increasing the ATP and the energy units in the body and exercise as well. So if you over exercise, so here's the key over exercising, you're going to deplete your energy under exercising, you're going to deplete your energy being in a healthy BMI, a healthy weight. is the most ideal.   So the ideal BMI for getting pregnant is between 18. 5 and 24. 9. It's known as the healthy range. Anything lower or anything higher can contribute to a more [00:11:00] deficient state, believe it or not, even having excess and having a higher weight can be deficient because your body's carrying the weight and it's not using the energy properly. Sunlight also impacts melatonin in your cells. So believe it or not, even though melatonin is something that many people take and it's used at night or it's Considered something that impacts sleep. It also impacts the cells and works as an antioxidant and One of the ways to do it is by taking supplements But I would definitely suggest getting sunlight early in the morning, because if you get sunlight early in the morning, your cells will start to make cellular melatonin, and that can impact your egg quality as well. Another thing that we know can really act as an anti ager is meditation. By meditating, you can actually slow down and reverse your biological age. There many studies that show. that there's so [00:12:00]many physiological improvements that can happen from meditation, but not just meditating things like yoga as well. Things that really calm the nervous system, like even chanting has been shown to have many beneficial aspects, but it also.   Can increase nitric oxide chanting does. So there are a lot of things that you can do that are free and really are so minimal. Like it doesn't even take that much time out of your day that can improve and reverse your biological age. Meditation has been shown to help people live longer, it increases well being, and it also works on your emotions. And believe it or not, emotions are actually pretty high maintenance, especially difficult emotions. If you think about it, it really uses up a lot of energy, so it's not a energy efficient aspect of us. Now, it does happen from time to time and it's normal to have those emotions, no doubt, but[00:13:00] if you have it chronically, it can really, really deplete the energy of the body.   Think about times where you've had a very heightened sense of emotion or a difficult day and you've really, really, it got the best of you. Think about how depleting it was and how depleted you felt. Sometimes people need to sleep just to kind of overcome all of the emotions and all of the drain that it's given them so emotions can be really, really taxing, but then on the other hand, elevated emotions can actually provide more energy. So things like laughter are really healthy. I oftentimes tell people to do that, especially before transfers, because if you are getting a transfer, it's been shown to help the transfer stick.   So laughter therapy, if it helps with transfers. It really helps with everything else. It was just one study on that, but laughter is healthy in general. So watching [00:14:00] things like comedies will take the edge off of the fertility journey, just to have a little break mentally because we know that it can be really, really taxing and difficult as it is. So I always say, if you're going to have those things happen or things that are challenging that you're dealing with, you obviously can't take that away because it's just part of life and it's part of the process. But what you can do is counteract it with other tools and other things that you can least bounce out or alleviate or take the load off. And I highly suggest laughter therapy. That's huge. But also exercise and yoga, things that really calm the nervous system, because it helps you sleep. And sleep is another really, really important factor that can also help with age related fertility conditions. So getting sleep is incredibly nurturing.   It also helps your body organize and balance hormones. It's so important to get your [00:15:00] overall chi increased, which think ATP, think about your mitochondria, your cells, rejuvenation. Sleep is incredibly important. The key with sleep is not to have too much sleep and not to have too little. So about eight to nine hours or seven to nine hours, ideally eight would be great.   Supplements you might want to consider are a good prenatal supplement, omega 3s, vitamin C and E, because they're high in antioxidants, but sometimes the prenatals have a good amount. Glutathione is really important, NAC and please don't take this as medical advice. Definitely speak to somebody about, you know, Taking this because it's not for everybody, not all supplements are for everybody.   It really is dependent on your unique circumstance and you can also get your DHEA. tested to see if it's low because many women after 40 can [00:16:00] benefit from taking DHEA depending on their condition. For some people, it can have an adverse effect if it's too high. So it's important to really look at it because it is a hormone. If you are considering IVF, My suggestion is to inquire about a lower dosage protocol because from what I've learned from speaking to other practitioners and also speaking to my patients and seeing people doing a lot better, women who have a lower reserve may do better with lower medication protocols because it works more on the quality than the quantity. Because if you try to work on the quantity, then the quantity is already low. So it's better for fewer eggs to take in the medication and grow. And from what I've seen. People have done better with that. if they have [00:17:00] lower reserve. But again, this is a question for your doctor.   You want to make sure that they're on board. You may want to get multiple opinions and see what everybody thinks, because you'll find different opinions on everything when it comes to fertility and when it comes to doctors.   And lastly, you want to also track your cycle. And I wouldn't just do it with LH sticks because LH sticks are just going to show your brain wants to get your body to ovulate, but it doesn't really confirm ovulation. I highly recommend trying BBT charting for at least two months. I have a couple of episodes on that. If you want to look into different methods that you can choose to track your fertile window, you could check out episode number 299. I cover many different ways to track it, how to track it and ways that are a little more convenient than just doing the BBT, which I do highly still recommend to at least to do it for two [00:18:00] months.   The important thing is really to understand it and to understand your fertile window and really understand what is happening and when you are most fertile. It could help you also in understanding whether you need to address the follicular phase or the luteal phase or what's happening because if your luteal phase is short or the temperature is too low, that could be possibly significant in showing that you have low progesterone and something that you might want to mention to your doctor or your natural health practitioner.   So those are all things that you want to know. If you do have any questions, I am very active on Instagram. You can DM me and my handle is at the wholesome Lotus fertility. Thank you so much for tuning in today and I hope that you found this information helpful. If you have any other ideas or topics, again, feel free to DM me on Instagram and thank you so much for tuning in.   I hope you have a [00:19:00] beautiful day. 

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome Desi Barlett!   Desi shares her background and how she got into supporting women through life's transitions. She explains kinesiology and its connection to yoga and the body's movements. Desi discusses the importance of releasing emotions stored in the body and the three common areas where tension is held: hips, shoulders, and jaw. She also highlights the significance of starting the day with intention and meditation.   Episode Takeaways Kinesiology is the study of the human body and its movements, and it can be used to support women through various life transitions. Emotions are often stored in the body, particularly in the hips, shoulders, and jaw. Releasing tension in these areas can lead to emotional and physical well-being. Meditation and breathwork are powerful tools for maintaining and cleansing the mind and body. They can help release emotional weight and provide clarity and focus. Starting the day with intention and proactive decision-making can set the tone for a successful and fulfilling day. Starting the day with a morning ritual and setting intentions can lead to success in all areas of life. Traumatic events can lead to finding one's calling and purpose in life. Connecting with the heart and the uterus is important for fertility and conception. Listening and being heard are essential for healing and creating a supportive environment. Desi offers resources and support for women on their fertility journey.   Guest Bio:    Desi Bartlett MS, CPT E-RYT, is passionate about sharing the joy of movement. With over 25 years of experience in health and wellness, she holds a bachelor's degree in kinesiology, a master's degree in corporate fitness, and is currently pursuing a doctoral degree in exercise science. Originally from Chicago, Desi is also a proud mother of two and an internationally published author. Desi is currently launching an innovative subscription platform, Desibodymind.com, offering a holistic approach to health and wellness through meditation, yoga, and fitness. At the heart of her philosophy is the belief in the interconnectedness of mind and body. As a women's health expert with advanced certifications in yoga, personal training, prenatal and postnatal fitness, and group fitness, Desi has garnered a roster of private clients that includes household names like Ashley Tisdale, Adam Levine, Kate Hudson, and many more. Her expertise has been showcased on major networks such as ABC, NBC, FOX, Univision, Hallmark, and Lifetime. Desi's influence extends beyond her client base through multiple online classes including DailyOM, Beachbody, and iFit. She is also the author of Your Strong, Sexy Pregnancy: a Yoga and Fitness Guide, a comprehensive guide  and co-author of Total Body Beautiful: Secrets to Looking and Feeling Your Best After Age 35. Now, Desi brings her wealth of knowledge and experience to Desibodymind.com, where individuals can access transformative content designed to strengthen both their physical bodies and mental well-being. Whether you're a seasoned practitioner or new to the world of holistic health, Desi's platform offers something for everyone. Join Desi, who lives on the picturesque island of Oahu, on a journey to cultivate strength from the inside out.   www. desibodymind.com   Instagram is @mothersintolivingfit and @desibodymind     For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Desi.   Desi (00:03) Thank you so much. Aloha from Hawaii. This is a beautiful morning over here on the island and I'm so happy to connect with you.   Michelle (00:11) I absolutely love Hawaii, by the way. Been there, it's so magical. I have to say, I really miss it now. We've been there like two years ago and I can't wait to come back.   So I'd love to hear your background. What got you started in this work that you do?   Desi (00:29) So my mother was a hippie and she was a disciple of Goswami Kriyananda at the Temple of Kriya Yoga in Chicago. So I grew up with meditation and yoga since the time I was six years old. When I was in college, I got really deep into fitness and I pursued two degrees. I've got my degree in kinesiology and my master's in corporate fitness. And actually I'm on the brink of getting my PhD right now. I'm also in kinesiology. And so I've just been   Michelle (00:37) Love that.   Awesome.   Desi (00:58) extremely passionate about helping women through all transitions of life for many years. I have two children and I know that pregnancy and fertility especially can be such a journey. So it's my pleasure, my privilege, my honor to really support women through all of life's changes.   Michelle (01:18) Amazing. First of all, I actually took a little and found it to be fascinating. So I'd love to actually start there for people who have never heard of it. would love for you to share it for somebody who's like never heard of it before and   Desi (01:33) kinesiology is all about the study of the human body. And what we look at is biomechanics and you know, like what muscle is specifically working when you're moving your arm, let's say zero to 45 degrees and then 45 to 90 degrees, et cetera. And so what I've learned is not only anatomy and physiology and really understanding the body from the inside out,   Michelle (01:47) you   Desi (01:57) but how the body moves. So when you layer that on with yoga and all of the esoteric teachings, it's so fascinating to me because what I'm seeing now is that what the yogis have been teaching quite literally for millennia is what we're discovering today. So for example, when we talk about something like yoga nidra, which is yogic sleep, when we go into progressive relaxation,   Michelle (02:17) Yes.   Desi (02:26) So for example, some of your listeners might've enjoyed a meditation where you close your eyes, slow your breath down, relax your feet, let that feeling of relaxation move to your ankles, and you go through the entire body. What we know now is that there are specific physiological processes that are happening inside of your body that promote this relaxation and restoration on a cellular level.   So on the one hand, I'm full blown science nerd, and on the other hand, I'm like super duper hippie. And when I can prove one with the other, it lights me up.   Michelle (03:04) I totally get it. Say no more. Because I feel the same way. And you know what's really cool? The more I'm doing this, the more I have guests on the podcast, the more I'm realizing, wow, we're actually at a place that we've wanted to go for so long. And people always thought that science had to be completely different from spirituality, that the two could not connect. But   I'm seeing more and more that they're actually connecting in a beautiful way.   Desi (03:33) Absolutely. And I think that really also speaks to what you do and what you offer women so beautifully as well in terms of acupuncture. And know, when we're starting to understand like in yoga, we call them natties, the energy lines, we're starting to understand that there's a reason that people have been talking about this for so many years and it's because it really works.   Michelle (03:49) Mm   Desi (03:57) So when we're able to bring this knowledge and education to women, especially on a fertility journey, I think it can be such a gift because it's not woo woo, know, there's actual science that's involved. And so if I'm asking you like, hey, let's take this step together and let me support you. I'm doing so from a place of feeling like I can actually help empower you. This isn't just us wishing.   Michelle (03:57) Mm   Love that. That's beautiful. I really love that. So talk to me about kinesiology, like what got you into it and how can you bridge that or like use that in your teachings and your practices?   Desi (04:37) I went to ASU and I was originally a broadcasting major and I had a dance class and I noticed that my knee hurt all of the time. And so I went to the university doctor and he said to me, he's like, no problem, you are not injured. You just need to strengthen your quads. And I said, what's a quad? And so he explained to me and his fate would have it that very evening I met   second place Miss Olympia on campus. And I was telling her what was going on. And she's like, all good, girl. I've got you. I'm going to take you to the gym. She introduced me to the leg extension. And I fell in love with fitness. And my joke is that that evening I walked into the gym and I never left. So what I've learned is that you can strengthen your muscles, your joints, your connective tissue. But while you're in the gym or on a yoga mat, we're also strengthening our minds. In order to push through that next rep or to lift the heavier weight, something is happening in our minds as well. We're making a decision to commit to the next level. And I truly believe that that's all applicable to our daily lives. When we feel stronger and our bodies and our minds, we can take that strength, that power into everything that we do with a sense of confidence. Like if I can lift that 200 pound   whatever, of course I can take this conference call. We're good.   Michelle (06:02) totally. I always say that. I mean, the challenges and sometimes I'll take a course or an exercise class and, and I'm like, my God, I'm dying. like, I love taking the class because I feel so much more motivated when I have a teacher and the teacher's like, I know this is hard, but get through it, go to your breath, you know, and then it gets me to my breath. And I'm like, okay, focus on my breath. And it makes you strong.   internally, like you learn to deal with things that are not easy. So I 100 % agree with what you just said. I totally feel that way myself. not just that, I am so fascinated by connecting with the body. somatic therapy, where it really, you connect with your body in order to process emotions and to process   Desi (06:45) Yes.   Michelle (06:50) your internal state. I mean, there's so much more to that than what I'm explaining because that's not specifically my specialty, but it's really fascinating to me because I've learned more and more as I'm doing this. And even with what I do that we process emotions physically a lot more than we think. We think it's all up here in our minds, but it really so much of it is in our bodies. And actually when we do get into our bodies,   That is how we're able to manage them more easily. And it doesn't feel as overwhelming as when we're thinking about them or just staying in that mindset.   Desi (07:31) Amen. So somatic therapy, remember reading about it the first time probably about, my goodness, 30 years ago, there's a wonderful book by Barbara Brennan. If I remember correctly, I think it's called Hands of Light. And she was a nurse, if I remember correctly, and working with people, and noticed that when she would touch certain parts of their body, it would trigger a memory. It would trigger an emotional response in many cases.   Michelle (07:43) Mm   Desi (07:56) Way back when, when I was like a little baby fitness teacher, I remember working as a personal trainer in Chicago. This is like 1996. And I would, I would touch people to stretch them, you know, like just relax your trapezius or let me help you with your hamstring stretch. And I felt and experienced and saw the same thing. When you're that close to someone's energy body.   you can almost feel or I can feel the memory. And I'm like, whoa, what was that? But I didn't have the tools at that time to say, know, enjoy a very deep breath. Let's let it go. And let's let that experience be sort of like a cloud and just let it move on by. We don't have to attach to it. In yoga, we have a technique called neti, neti, neti. I am not this thought. I am not this body. I am not this experience.   Michelle (08:30) Interesting.   Desi (08:52) You're the one who's all the way behind all that, right? So now I have the tools to help women especially and empower them. So when there's been trauma, we can talk about it when necessary, especially if I'm working with your body. The body is such a sacred space and it's our temple. So if I have the privilege and the honor of helping to guide your body, of course I'm going to approach it with a deep sense of reverence.   Michelle (08:56) Right.   Desi (09:19) And any feeling or emotion that's popping up, we'll say hello to it. We'll see where it comes from, if it needs to be explored more. But let's also start to focus on what is the intention? What do you want to feel today? So if you're waking up with a feeling of like chaos and my gosh, and I'm not sure what the next move is, and I've got this whole to -do list, and I've got this and that, and on and on and on, and the mind is spinning. Well, where do we want to go? Is the intention perhaps?   grounding and then I can help you start to ground and breathe and feel your lower body and so when things come up we can absolutely talk about that and move through it but let's also be really really focused on where we're going so we're not getting lost in a constant loop of what was.   Michelle (10:08) Mm   And do you see that a lot with the people that you're working with where they have like a real release or something old comes out when they're stretching in a certain way or they're a lot of times in the hips I hear that a lot of people hold a lot of tension in their hips and emotions there as well.   Desi (10:27) Yes. So three places in the body that tend to store a lot. Number one, as you said, in the hips, specifically the psoas, the hip flexors tend to hold a lot of old tension around fight or flight. So I know you and I have spoken before about fight or flight. Think about it, Michelle, if you're if you're getting ready to like either dig in and fight or just hightail it out of there, what activates the hip flexors? Because that's what activates what you're going to run.   or when you're going to stay and squat and push. So it's totally normal to.   Michelle (10:56) Right.   Desi (11:01) the body or for the body to tell us rather, hey, I need to release all this because I didn't even use it. You know, I realized I was only on the 405 freeway. I didn't need to fight or flee. It was just my body spinning out because there was so much stress. So that's where something like yoga comes in and deep hip openers and release. And we can let all of that go. But getting back to my original   Michelle (11:09) Bye.   Right.   Desi (11:28) point, the other two places in the body where we tend to store particular emotions, and this isn't one size fits all, you you might experience one thing somewhere else in the body, totally normal. But generally speaking as human beings, the second place where we tend to store it is in the shoulders. And so especially in our modern day like tech neck kind of world, you kind of notice that the voice goes up and the shoulders go up when we get stressed.   Michelle (11:46) Mm   Desi (11:55) And that also has to do with like fear and anxiety. So we're carrying quite literally the weight of the world on our shoulders. So we can start to release that and relax the trapezius and breathe into that. And then the third and final common place for us to store a lot of muscular tension is in the jaw. And pound for pound, this is like the strongest part of the body, which is crazy.   Michelle (12:17) Mm   Desi (12:23) That's why when we grind our teeth, can quite literally take bone through bone because it's so strong. So this is usually related to words left unspoken, needing to speak your truth, let it out. And how many times in this lifetime have we been told like, just it won't serve you to tell your boss off or that kind of thing. Yes, that's true. But when and where do we actually get to release it?   Michelle (12:24) That is pretty crazy.   Desi (12:52) Have you gone for a walk this morning and just, just let it all go with a great big exhale? It can help. I'm of Mexican ancestry, I'm Mexican and Russian. And I remember when I lived in Mexico, I learned the expression, ay un dicho, caerita te ves mas bonita. It means when you're quiet, you look prettier. And so there's this messaging around like, it in. And so I'm here to tell you like,   Michelle (12:55) Yeah.   Yeah. Yeah, get it out. It's true. It's true. I've been a meditator for a while and I think that I think everybody should at least try it because there's so much benefit to going internally because it really connects you to listening to your body and listening to what's going on. And of course too many meditators will understand this. think if they hear this,   Desi (13:20) Let it out.   Michelle (13:43) is that you get a lot of downloads. actually allows for an opportunity for a lot of intuitive downloads. And unless you really allow yourself that space, you may not realize that. But I think a lot of people who everybody that I've talked to that meditates is like, my God, that happens to me. So, so therefore my conclusion is that when you sit and meditate, you do get intuitive hits and downloads. And so one of the things that came to me   Desi (14:01) Definitely.   Michelle (14:12) is it's like maintaining and cleansing. It's like you need to maintain your mind and your body by cleansing and releasing often just like you do anything else, even in your household, even the oil in your car, everything, even your body when you're releasing waste. I you need to release energetically. And I think that's something that is so often ignored. And people could just   get in a habit of holding and holding and holding. And it's almost like emotional constipation. Like you literally are holding it in. I know I'm really great with analogies, but you really like literally are holding it in. And so, they say kind of like you're holding so much weight and holding onto so much of the past or things that are holding you back, it's true. Like there's really truth in that.   And so sometimes when I get quiet, that's when I start to feel, I'm holding a lot. I wasn't even aware of that. And I think that that's what is so beautiful specifically with yoga, because yoga is movement and meditation and mindfulness at the same time and breath work, which is a whole other thing, because in the breath work, you can release so much as well.   Desi (15:27) Amen, yes. So meditation is sort of like brushing your teeth. It's something that we can do daily and it's a cleanse as you were saying. And so if we can simply take the time to connect, I like to share with folks that you can do it first thing in the morning. So when you first wake up in the morning, before you even open your eyes, slow the breath down and perhaps you even go back into the dream state and just ask yourself,   your higher self, show me, show me, show me. What am I meant to do today? What is the dream of my life and how can I take the next step? What is the right next step? And let it reveal itself to you. So in the same way that we have this muscular body and all of the beautiful processes that are happening every day, obviously, of course, we have the vital organs. And it's so interesting to me because   the yogis when they started to understand the chakras and the energetic body, it really lines up to like the organs in our body. So what you're talking about specifically is third eye, right? And so third eye relates to the pituitary. And this is vision beyond what's in front of our eyes. And I think we've all experienced this, whether you're daydreaming or in a deep state of prayer for those of who   for those of you who pray, there's this moment of being able to see like, that's the next right step. And you can breathe into it and you can feel that peace within your body. But if you go directly from the sleep state to the phone and CNN, Fox, like, boy, there's so much happening right now in the world, it will pull you off your center immediately.   Michelle (17:00) Mm   No, Yeah.   Mm   Desi (17:16) Before you give yourself to the world, I'm just gonna ask you to give yourself a moment to breathe and really decide for yourself, where is it I wanna show up today? How can I be of service? And I feel like that sets you up for success.   Michelle (17:35) I love that. I love that because it is a proactive way to really approach your day. And I always talk about the proactive versus reactive because yeah, we can react. We get our phone or somebody wants something from us. Then all of our actions are reactions really to something else that's pulling on us. And so when we do that at the beginning of our day, before we have any pull,   whatsoever. I just think that is so beautiful and that is so wise to start off your day with your own intention, with your own calling, with your own moment. I just think that is a hugely powerful practice. And I know that people who do things like that are more successful, like not just in their business, but I mean, they use this for business   because it works in the business because it's powerful in general. So you could use this for anything, for your personal life, for everything.   Desi (18:33) Absolutely. And to your point, I think it was probably three, four years ago, all of a sudden I started hearing about morning rituals. And I'm like, all right, the marketing folks have gotten a hold of this technique. And I don't judge. I love it. I love that the word is spread out to everyone because if it works, it's universal truth.   Michelle (18:41) Yeah.   totally. You can apply to everything for sure. But I remember watching Miracle Morning And then I read the book. It's fascinating. highly recommend people watch the video, which is free. You could find the video for free, but you can also get the book. And I thought it was fascinating. He basically looked, he pulled all the things that people who are successful in their life or like   felt control over their life. What did they do? What's their like magic ingredient? So he would find things like meditation in the morning. It all started in the morning because in the morning it's you're getting in before everybody else gets you. Just like you said, you know, before anything else happens, get yourself then catch it. It's like getting your, know, when you're telling your boss something and you're catching him right before he goes into the meeting into the craziness. And so it's a good time to catch yourself as well.   Desi (19:46) So I'd love to just also talk a little bit about the why behind all of this. So it's all so fascinating and what we're talking about. You and I are so aligned with our messaging and being of service to women and really empowering women with the tools that they need to create the dream of their lives. And I wanted to share for a moment part of why I do this. So.   I love yoga and meditation and fitness and all the things. And it's been such an integral part of my life and my path. And I don't know why, Michelle, but I'm called to share this story today. On September 11th, 2001, I was on a plane. I had gone home to Chicago for my 30th birthday and I was going back to Cabo San Lucas, Mexico, where I lived at the time. And I heard over the intercom, we need to make a landing right now.   And as soon as we landed, I got off the plane and I saw the television screens. We landed in Tulsa, Oklahoma, obviously not the intended place. I was supposed to go all the way to Mexico. And I saw on the screen tower two and the plane hitting tower two. And so I was in Tulsa, Oklahoma for three days waiting for travel to be available again. And I   I made the mistake of watching a lot of the news and it was so heavy to take all of that in because I could feel so much pain, not just my own but those around me. And so I turned off the television and I used my tools and I went into a very, very deep state of meditation. And I said, show me, show me, show me, how can I be of service? How can I help?   And what I heard at that time, and I don't usually share this because it feels so deeply personal, but because we're talking to women on a fertility journey, that's personal and I wanna meet them where they are. I heard, share your gifts, share your gifts, share your gifts. And for me, what are my gifts? My gift to this world is helping you to feel good in your own body.   helping you to feel strong and capable and flexible and do anything that you want. So when the international borders finally opened again, I went to Mexico, I sold everything I had. I jumped on a plane and moved to Los Angeles two weeks later. And the reason I moved to LA specifically is because as silly as it might sound to some, it was really important to me to do.   yoga and fitness DVDs in English, in Spanish, to do prenatal fitness, yoga, all of the things. And so LA was the right fit. And LA was such a gift to me because it also, it led me to my husband and having babies and writing books and all the things. So I just really highly encourage you when there is trauma or pain or doubt, go within, listen.   get so quiet that you can actually hear this is the next right step.   Michelle (22:54) Thank you so much for sharing that. and I know it was a very personal story. So thank you so much for sharing that. That is a really, really profound, because I think that oftentimes it's such a human reaction when something bad happens or you're feeling emotions that are overwhelming, you want to either distract yourself or make it stop. I think of the saying, the only way out is through.   And I can't say just how true that is. there's, there is no other way, cause it will come back up. And I see that all the time when people come in for acupuncture, or even people say when they're doing yoga, they get into a certain stretch and it does come out because it's being held. If it doesn't go through, it's being held.   Really, if you look at like ancient culture and ancient tradition, ancient wisdom, they always say to go within. They're always pointing you inward. It's incredible.   Desi (23:52) Absolutely. because of so much of what you've studied comes from China and so much of what I've studied comes from India, we have this Eastern perspective that we can weave into the Western. Eastern isn't necessarily better. Western isn't necessarily bad. And I hear some people saying like, it's so Western. I'm like, well, Western also brought us like antibiotics. So we don't want to throw it away.   Michelle (24:14) Right, totally.   Desi (24:17) But we can weave that wisdom of centuries old Eastern traditions into what we know now.   Michelle (24:25) Yeah, absolutely. Amazing. so working with fertility, I know you do fertility yoga as well. What are some of the things and the tools that you use to help women when they're trying to conceive?   Desi (24:40) So a lot of what I do in addition to strengthening the body and making sure that the body feels ready to carry a pregnancy is meditation. We go into a very deep state of meditation. I often have women bring one hand to the heart and one hand to the womb, close your eyes and communicate with your baby and invite your baby into this space.   Michelle (24:58) Love that.   Desi (25:04) on his or her own divine right timing. It's not up to us. And as much as we want to decide like, it's today, it's this week, it's this year, that baby, that soul, in my opinion, has its own path. And so we honor that and we talk to the baby and we say, hey, know, however it is that you're going to come through, if it's through my body and this vessel, I welcome you.   If it's through another woman's body or another means, I honor you, but I'm ready to receive you in my arms. And so we make this heart to heart call, essentially, you're calling in the baby and you're letting the baby and the soul know I'm ready for you. again, however that comes is beautiful.   Michelle (25:56) Yeah, I love that. And what's really amazing is that there's this heart uterus connection with, so the heart basically is connected to the uterus. think we spoke about that when I was on the live. Did we talk about that?   Desi (26:08) We did, and it was the first time I've ever heard anyone say it. So I'd love if you could speak more about it because you intrigued me and I'm like, I love this.   Michelle (26:17) yeah, it's incredible. I talk about this a lot. actually like have a whole chapter on in the way of such an integral part really of conception, the heart plays a very strong role. I think it's overlooked a lot. And this is one of the reasons why your emotions make such an impact really on everything. I mean, you could say also fertility, but really everything.   but the heart specifically has a role in opening the uterus. So it has a role in labor as well. And what's really, really fascinating is that oxytocin, is coined as the heart hormone, the love hormone, which is one of the other things that I'm seeing as bridging science of the new to the old teachings is that oxytocin   has an impact on contracting the uterus. And it's one of the things that gets things started in labor. So when you're opening the uterus, it's opening for both taking in and taking out. So Ina Mae Gaskin she was midwife and I remember hearing this phrase from her that says the same energy that gets the baby in gets   gets the baby out. well, oxytocin also plays a role around ovulation. increases. Why is that? It's not random. Why would it increase around ovulation? Why would it increase after orgasm? Like around that time? Why would it do that if it had no role? Nothing is left with no role. Like everything's planned in our always something that's there for a reason.   So I always found that interesting because that's kind of like how we measure it in conventional medicine or modern science. And it really correlates to that. And I love the fact that you said that you put your hands, which I think your hands too have so much energy. And when we love somebody, we put our hands on them. So I love that you put your hands on your heart and your womb because having that connection, even touching it, when we're touching something, we're placing our intention there.   And also, you know, our arms are kind of connected via the heart. So it's almost like a circuit that happens energetically. And I'm like, I just think that is amazing that you do that.   Desi (28:39) It's so interesting that you say that it's like a circuit because if you look at all of the older like statues of the divine feminine, that's how their arms are held. And like you're saying, it's a continuation of the heart energy or the heart chakra energy that travels through the arms and the hands as conduits. And to go back to like muscular science nerd speak,   Michelle (28:57) Mm   Desi (29:02) If I put my hands on one of your muscles while you're training, the muscle can and or will contract up to 50 % more efficiently if I'm touching you. So if a trainer is, isn't it cool? If a trainer is like tapping on your bicep while you're doing a bicep curl, it isn't just like, hey, Michelle, this is the muscle. It's to activate that muscle for that muscle to go, wait, yeah, I'm supposed to contract. So in the same way,   Michelle (29:02) You   That's so cool.   That's fascinating. That is amazing.   Desi (29:31) Cool. So in the same way that we can remind the muscles, we can remind the organs and the energy body, like, hey, I see you, I feel you, but let's do, let's show up in the way that we're supposed to today.   Michelle (29:47) I love that. Thank you for that information. Cause that, I mean, that is blowing my mind. I didn't even realize that it was like that responsive, but it makes sense. It makes sense. That would be responsive to touch in general. Like, and we know that that love and touch even for premature babies helps them dramatically. So I always say, you know, if that love and touch helps that, why wouldn't it help the conception as well? And I just think that kind of centering in.   So continue, so you were saying that connecting with the heart and the uterus and just really like getting into your body and making that connection is one of the first ways that you start.   Desi (30:27) Yes, I work with so many women who don't ever think about their uterus or their womb. And when I say words like vaginal canal or entroitis, there's still a little bit of this puritanical energy that I think we carry, especially in the United States. And you'll hear almost like the little beavis and butt head giggle very often. I do it too.   Michelle (30:46) Mm   Desi (30:50) They said that. And so I go back to how you were saying that there's a reason for everything. One of my very first jobs, my goodness, I think I was like just barely 18, was as a weight loss counselor. Do remember Jenny Craig? We used to make us say like all of these ridiculous words like gas bubbles and   Michelle (30:52) You   Yes.   Desi (31:20) Constipation. We just, had to see all these words over and over and over so that we were really, really comfortable saying it without giggling because we needed to be able to speak to people about what was happening in their GI system and if that was related to holding on to weight. So when I'm speaking with women, I like to use the words and let's talk about your womb and your vagina and your uterus and the energy that we're bringing into these areas so that we can start to wake it up.   So it's not just like, yeah, down there. I hear a lot of people say down there. And I'm like, down where? Like, let's talk about it. Let's talk to our bodies. And if we want our bodies to be responsive in the way that we want a dear friend to be responsive and to show up for us, let's talk to it with love and respect and by its correct name.   Michelle (31:51) Mm   Mm -hmm. Yeah. I love that. really love that perspective of just really being there and seeing it for what it is and honoring it and not pushing it away uncomfortably and just really taking it in because I do feel like your body and your intention.   and your own energy and emotion towards it.   Desi (32:37) Amen. And so what I teach women is about the energetic body and chakras. And the second chakra is, of course, where we unite with another. So if the first chakra is the foundation, we are we're standing on our own as as women or as men. It's the individual. The second chakra is where we come into communion with another. We share our body with another. If we are wishing to conceive, that's the energy that we bring in.   So going back to like Ina Mae Gaskin and the energy that you conceive with is the energy that helps with labor and delivery. How do you want to bring a baby into this world? Is it with love and union and respect and reverence? Yeah, for me, yes. So we got to talk about it.   Michelle (33:25) Yeah.   for sure. And I also think that I also love working with chakras. I had a background in Ayurveda. So we talked about the chakras and then even Chinese medicine, you can see that there are certain points that correspond to those chakras. what I first saw, it's a thing. It's a vortex on your body. has energy. You can feel it. And even just thinking about it in meditation, just your thought alone, your awareness can release it and work on it. And   Another thing is, so we talk about the chakras, we talk about all the different things, but the chakras are interrelated. They communicate, they're, especially the neighboring ones, they are related. So I always think about like the first chakra is safety. If you're not feeling safe, can impact your period. It can impact your reproductive health. So it's almost like you need to be safe in order to create. you're,   know, second chakra is depending on that foundation of the safety and that rootedness and that groundedness. If you're in survival, you can't create cause you're too busy surviving.   Desi (34:40) Yes. And to your point, you were discussing, you and I were chatting the other day about how the body holds on to the energy in the arms and the legs when it's in fight or flight. So it can hightail out of a stressful situation. So how are you supposed to conceive in that environment? So it's interesting that every other chakra is individual or communion with another.   Michelle (34:52) Yeah.   Mm   Desi (35:07) So we have first is just you, second is the sexual energy, third is your creativity, fourth is love. And so we kind of go back and forth between this me on my own and me with another. And so I think that's really fascinating. So we can start to explore with our partner if we're wishing to conceive, how do we share our energy with one another? And then getting back to nerd science, because I always take it back there, it's also   Michelle (35:15) Mm   Desi (35:36) important to think about how each chakra relates to the endocrine system. And so second chakra, you know, then we're talking about like reproductive hormones. And I learned this because I have thyroid issues. And so I've been on Synthroid for like 35 years. And yes, I'm ready to get off it. And yes, I need to work with an acupuncture as like yesterday. But what I learned is that   Michelle (35:46) Mm   Desi (36:01) fifth chakra or the voice and listen to my voice tremble as I even say that it it's related to the thyroid. So what's happening in in the second chakra and the reproductive hormonal response it's all related and it's my honor and my joy to teach women about their bodies physically and their energy bodies.   Michelle (36:03) Mm -hmm.   Desi (36:27) And I have to just take a moment in gratitude for you because again, I feel this resonance and alignment and you and I speak the same language of Eastern and Western blended.   Michelle (36:40) Yeah, I feel the same way, Desi. I actually really feel resonant with you and what you're saying. I'm like, you're speaking my language. And I think also about the how in between the heart and the mind is the voice. It's kind of like the go between with your heart, which is right there. And so when we're aligned with that, with the love,   I think that that is very healing, just really loving ourselves, accepting ourselves, allowing ourselves that beautiful gift of expression.   Desi (37:12) Amen. And so when we're speaking to one another, just as humans, if I'm working with a client, for example, that's where I always start. Hey, how are you? And actually listening. I don't want to just hear that. Fine, how are you? But like, really, how are you? What's happening? What's happening in your body, your mind and your heart? And let that come through. And as they share their voice,   Michelle (37:25) Mm   Desi (37:38) That's when I start to get impressions of like, okay, we can go here, we can go there. But the simple act of sharing our truth is so important.   Michelle (37:48) without a doubt. I think just listening, just because so many people feel, this is what I hear, that they're not being heard. A lot of times when they go to the doctor, they say, like, I don't really feel like I was heard. I didn't really get a chance to ask my questions. I asked my questions, but they dismissed it. And I feel like that just by itself can really impact you on so many levels of feeling, you know, that feeling of safety or being held or being supported.   So I think just being there as a space to listen and for people to be able to express themselves is such a gift that you can give them. And it was interesting because yesterday we happened to have a live yesterday on Instagram. And you were saying that you really feel in your gut, like I was aligned. I feel the same way about you. I feel in my heart that you are very passionate. Like you are coming from such a   purposeful place with the people that you're working with and with your work, which is really amazing. I love it. I really appreciate that. And to see that, I think that if all of us found our true purpose and work through that passion, that's how we heal.   Desi (39:00) Amen. Yes, thank you. Thank you for saying that. It's received and appreciated. And again, I made a vow to the universe on that day in 2001. This is why I'm here. I continue to honor it, to renew it, and I wake up with my heart full every day.   Michelle (39:24) I love that so much. So for people who are listening to this, because I'm sure that a lot of people are really inspired by everything that you're sharing, how can they find you? How can they work with you? Because I know that you do bring out a lot of your lessons out for people to receive.   Desi (39:41) So you can find me really easily through my website. It's desibartlett .com. I have a whole new subscription platform on there for folks who want to enjoy the body mind workout, which is a combination of meditation, yoga, and fitness. I also have books available that are on there, one of which is called Your Strong Sexy Pregnancy, a yoga and fitness guide. And there is a fertility section in there. So if you're thinking, wait, I'm not pregnant yet.   please know that there is a message there for you as well. I'm also super active on Instagram. You can find me at mothers into living fit. So however I can best help support you on your path, I'm here.   Michelle (40:25) Awesome. Desi, this was such a great conversation. I've really enjoyed all of the conversations that we had even leading up to this. And I'm just so excited to meet another practitioner who I resonate so much with and has so much soul really in what they're doing. So thank you so much for coming on today.   Desi (40:45) Thank you, Michelle, and thank you for all that you're doing and for letting me be a part of it. It's my pleasure.    

On tomorrow's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome Dr. Sarah Wilson of @embracefertility. Dr. Sarah Wilson shares her personal journey with reproductive health and how she overcame challenges with her period and fertility. She emphasizes the importance of understanding one's own body and advocating for oneself in the medical system. Dr. Wilson discusses the role of the immune system and gut health in reproductive health, highlighting the connection between inflammation, gut bacteria, and hormonal balance. She explains how basic blood work can provide valuable insights into one's health and offers practical tips for addressing gut health issues. Dr. Sarah Wilson discusses the importance of gut health and its impact on overall well-being. She explains how the gut microbiome plays a crucial role in maintaining a healthy immune system and how imbalances in the microbiome can lead to various health issues. Dr. Wilson emphasizes the need to create a hospitable environment for beneficial bacteria to thrive and shares insights on the use of probiotics and spore-based organisms. Dr. Wilson provides practical tips for improving gut health, such as eating whole foods, avoiding processed foods, and managing stress.   Guest Bio:   On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome Dr. Sarah Wilson, ND. Dr. Sarah Wilson discusses the importance of gut health and its impact on overall well-being. She explains how the gut microbiome plays a crucial role in maintaining a healthy immune system and how imbalances in the microbiome can lead to various health issues. Dr. Wilson emphasizes the need to create a hospitable environment for beneficial bacteria to thrive and shares insights on the use of probiotics and spore-based organisms. Dr. Wilson provides practical tips for improving gut health, such as eating whole foods, avoiding processed foods, and managing stress.   Takeaways:   Advocate for yourself and seek answers when faced with reproductive health challenges. Understanding the role of the immune system and gut health is crucial for reproductive health. Basic blood work can provide valuable insights into one's health and help identify patterns and tendencies. Addressing gut health issues, such as inflammation and imbalances in gut bacteria, can positively impact reproductive health. Maintaining a healthy gut microbiome is essential for overall well-being and a strong immune system. Creating a hospitable environment for beneficial bacteria to thrive is crucial for gut health. The gut-brain connection and the enteric nervous system play a significant role in gut health. Managing stress, eating whole foods, and avoiding processed foods are important for improving gut health.       Dr. Sarah Wilson, ND, is the visionary founder of Advanced Women's Health, leading a healthcare revolution across Canada with clinics in Ontario and British Columbia. Overcoming her own health challenges, Sarah is dedicated to empowering women to reclaim their vitality naturally, merging research-backed expertise with her passion for Naturopathic Medicine. Beyond her professional pursuits, she is the Mom to two latino boys under 5 and is a self-proclaimed personal development and mindset fanatic.   www.advancedwomenshealth.ca Instagram: @embracefertility @drsarah_nd @advancedwomenshealthclinics https://www.youtube.com/@embracefertility https://www.linkedin.com/in/naomi-woolfson/     For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Wilson.   Sarah Wilson (00:02) Thank you so much for having me. I am so excited. I just really can't get enough of sharing all of the information that women need about reproductive health and empowerment. So thank you for having me.   Michelle (00:14) Love it. So I'd love for you to share your background and how you got into the work with reproductive health.   Sarah Wilson (00:21) It's such a huge conversation, I think such an important one because for so many of us, we get into it because we needed the medicine, right? And we explored that. So my story I always say is a really winding one. I was in and out of hospital my whole life until I was 18 and I was diagnosed with celiac disease, but I didn't fit the bill. And it was a naturopathic doctor that really pushed for that initial diagnosis. And so then, as we all do,   Michelle (00:28) Mm -hmm, yeah.   Mm -hmm.   Sarah Wilson (00:49) I avoided my calling and was trying to figure out how to recover and how to work within this and lost my period for almost five years. And so during this time, I was a researcher and I was seeing different naturopathic doctors. I was seeing different conventional doctors and specialists and people just kept saying they didn't know what was going on and they couldn't figure out why I was, like I wasn't exceptionally lean during much of that period of time. Like they just couldn't piece it together.   Michelle (00:58) wow.   Sarah Wilson (01:18) I had a doctor, think it was 21, 22, that was like, you might never have kids on your own. If you wanna get pregnant, come back to me, I'll give you a pill, we'll wish you the best.   Michelle (01:28) So nonchalant.   Sarah Wilson (01:31) And I just, I always say there's a few breakdown to breakthrough moments in my life and that was a big one where I was just like, absolutely not. I have the world available to me. I have all of this research. There must be something I can figure out. So that proceeded to really get me to push to work and find the research and piece things together. And I did bring back my period. And then when it came back, it was exceptionally painful. I was passing out. I had been on birth control.   Michelle (01:37) Mm -hmm. Yeah, good.   Mm -hmm.   Sarah Wilson (02:00) since I was 13 because of the amount of pain and heaviness. And so that's what it was like, okay, now we have to navigate this world of endometriosis and what that means. so yeah, now fast all the way forward, I became an astrophysicist doctor. I have two babies with two tries. I do not live in chronic pain and I'm just so passionate about taking all that research. I had to figure out myself and...   Michelle (02:09) Mm   Mm   Mm   Sarah Wilson (02:26) had to bring into practice and navigate how to bring into practice to now be able to give that to patients across advanced women's health clinics in Canada. it's just, it's a very empowering end to a really challenging journey, which I think so many people listening have.   Michelle (02:44) Yeah, for sure. What I love about what you were saying is that knowing that inner knowing you're like, no, absolutely not. Like you knew it in your heart. Because a lot of people hear that. And then they're like, okay, I guess that's just my fate. And I love, you know, I love when people are like, no, I'm gonna take no for an answer. I'm gonna figure it out. and it's also an intuition. It's like your own intelligence within you telling you, no, there's more to look into. I had a similar   thing a little different, but similar. so what was it, let's kind of go back just because people might be in similar situations with their period, listening to this. What was it that really caused the five years without period? was it being on a pill for a long time? What was it that caused that?   Sarah Wilson (03:29) So I was actually, my presentation of celiac disease was very different. I was 100 pounds heavier than I am now. I perfectly, I exercised and I was obese. And so what, the brain is such a beautiful thing. And what I believe happened is that being obese, going through puberty programmed my brain for what body fatness, quote unquote, I needed to have in order to be safe to have a baby.   Michelle (03:36) Mm   Mm   Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Sarah Wilson (03:59) And so for most people, they lose their periods around 16, 18 % body fat. I tend to hover around 23, 24. If I dip below that, then my period starts to go as long, it goes wonky. It's much better now, but the research suggests that when you have inflammation interacting with your brain, when you have cortisol interacting with your brain, what happens is we actually change how sensitive we are to the signals between the brain and the ovaries.   Michelle (04:08) Mm   Mm   Sarah Wilson (04:28) And so I think that in combination with all these set point theories, there's so many things happening now in the world of set points, that combination is what it was. So for me, getting my inflammation under control, which we'll talk about, getting an understanding that I had stress, but it was physiological stress. I had nutrient deficiencies, I had bacterial overgrows, I had inflammation, like I had all of those pieces.   that were interacting with my brain and my hormones. And so I just needed to go through step by step. I needed to work on my gut microbiome. I needed to work on the nervous system component. But fundamentally, I needed to understand that my body, the way it works and its sensitivity is set at a slightly different point than other people's.   Michelle (05:18) Yeah, well, for sure. I mean, I think that that's really at the crux of everything is that everybody has their own different set point and different like, you know, responses, their bodies respond to different foods, different environments, different stress factors, just so many things. And I think that that's the key. I often see a lot of people sometimes come in to see me and they're well, I'm taking this kind of like,   combination herbs that I saw online or, you know, so, that's, that's one of the things that I really try to stress to people is that everybody's so different. And so when you were going through that, you were uncovering it. Obviously you had a natural path that you were working with. Yeah, multiple. So they, you had a team.   Sarah Wilson (05:58) And multiple. Yeah, absolutely. And I think I always say I'm the most energetic scientist you'll ever meet in your whole life. Like data informs every single decision. And then you sit in front of the person in front of you and you say, OK, what's their energy? Right. Like what? How do you need to to build those things together? And so, yeah, I had a team I had.   Michelle (06:09) Mm   Mm right. Totally.   Sarah Wilson (06:23) And I had multiple naturopathic doctors try to work their way through it. I had OB -GYNs and my family healthcare team trying to help navigate it. And it was just, I was in the typical situation. I was in the situation that 90 % of my patients are in. Everyone's like, you're fine. It's fine. Your blood work is fine. Right? And that's, think, even for me doing research, one of the projects I was on was we were studying metabolically healthy people, metabolically unhealthy people.   Michelle (06:41) Right, exactly. Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (06:52) We were studying them in lean and obese categories. And so the labs going through and they're pulling all this data. And it was the first time that I'm sitting there going, huh, okay. So we can have people that are metabolically very healthy and overweight. And we can have people that are very lean and extremely metabolically unhealthy. And this was, it was such a formative experience because I remember sitting there going.   Michelle (06:55) Mm   Mm -hmm, right.   Sarah Wilson (07:20) The blood work, the way we're reading it right now means nothing. Right? Like we need to be rude.   Michelle (07:25) There's so much more. It's just a snapshot. It's like a small, it's a small little slice. And I think that's something that I often see too, is that we make such generalized assumptions based on such a small little snapshot. And while that snapshot is very important, it's, it's kind of a piece to the puzzle. It's not the end all be all it's part of the whole picture.   Sarah Wilson (07:28) Exactly.   Exactly, and if we use a conventional reference range that's defined based on disease, like I think in North America, we've really lost the understanding that there's a line between health and disease. Like you don't just jump from one to the other like long jump, right? It's not like I'm healthy today and tomorrow I have a disease. Like there's this spectrum of dis -ease as we make our way to a condition. And I think identifying patterns in labs.   and identifying tendencies is arguably more important than the snapshot itself, you're 100 % correct. And so we have to look at that data holistically and say, how is that changing? How is that modifying over time? But also I think there's so much research now where we can give people back the keys to the castle with that basic blood work, right? Even for example, everyone has had what we call a complete blood count. We've had multiple of them. So that's...   A complete blood count is when we're looking at your red blood cells and your white blood cells. We're looking at the breakdown of those things. It's the thing you get when you walk into the doctor's office, when you get when you walk into the hospital, et cetera. They're always just saying, what's your white blood cells? What's your red blood cells doing, et cetera. And there's two white blood cells called neutrophils and lymphocytes. They are just representing two aspects of our immune system that are fighting bacteria and viruses and they're helping to support the system.   But there is a ton of research coming out to show that the ratio between neutrophil and lymphocytes can tell us about the inflammatory status of the body. So if your NLR, as we call it, neutrophil to lymphocyte ratio, is higher than 2 .5 or 3, chances are you've got an immunological underpinning to what's going on. And so for me with endometriosis, I was in the hospital a while ago now, and I was having a flare, and I was worried about ovarian torsion, because at one point I had had a 10 centimeter endometrial.   Michelle (09:30) Mm -hmm.   Sarah Wilson (09:40) like it was very, very large and it's not there now, but I just wanted to go in and make sure that there wasn't something happening because it felt different. And my NLR was six, but outside of that, it was one or two. So this is something I always say to patients, you can even empower yourself just looking at that number and being like, if that number is jumping high and it's correlating with my symptoms, if I have worse menstrual pain or worse mood challenges or   Michelle (09:42) Mm -hmm.   Mm   Mm   Mm -hmm.   Sarah Wilson (10:08) I get pregnant and these things jump and then I have a loss, what could that be telling you about your immune system? And I think there's such simple things. Of course, we can run super comprehensive panels of labs and get all of the autoimmune tests. And like I've heard you talk about them on the podcast before, right? You can get really comprehensive panels and that's wonderful. And I love that as a doctor and a researcher, I love data. But what I love even more is saying, let's look at the past two or three years.   Michelle (10:26) Mm   Mm   Right.   Sarah Wilson (10:37) What are these basic blood markers telling us about your tendencies and how much we need to dig into different components of health, like your immune system, your blood sugar, those types of things?   Michelle (10:48) So you could see this basically on just general blood work.   Sarah Wilson (10:53) Exactly. And so that's where I think for me.   Michelle (10:55) And do people often look like, do doctors even know to look for that specific thing? So it's kind of one of those things that people don't really look for, but you can kind of dig up your own stuff and just look at the ratio yourself.   Sarah Wilson (11:07) Exactly. Exactly. And that's why I think I come on these podcasts and I do these things because not everyone has access to a naturopathic doctor. Not everyone can be a researcher. Exactly. So to be able to look at that and start to question, even when I was in the hospital, I was like, are you concerned about that? And they're like, maybe you have a bacterial infection. It's not a big deal. Okay. Okay. Right? But it's...   Michelle (11:16) Yeah, that's very empowering.   Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (11:30) It's those things that I want people to be able to grab onto and access for themselves because what I know to be true in my practice, seeing so many people, is when you give women access to information about their bodies, they change communities, households, everything. Like it is the most empowering thing for me to come on a podcast and talk about something and then...   Michelle (11:46) Mm   Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (11:57) get someone message me and be like, my friend of a friend of a friend told me to look at this and now I'm concerned about it. And I'm like, yeah, you should probably get that investigated. And then it's ovarian cancer. You know what I mean? Like this is how powerful just these conversations are.   Michelle (12:08) my God, yeah.   Yeah, it's very powerful. mean, obviously when you do see that something's off, it'll get you at least to take the next steps or to investigate it more because you can't really make, you know that something's going on, but you have to like really move further and see what it is. But at least it's going to be an alarm to let you know something's going on.   Sarah Wilson (12:35) Mmm.   And a direction, right? I, every day, pretty much at this point, I'm talking to someone who's like, everything I was told was unexplained, right? And in the fertility world, if you're unexplained infertility, you either have a baby or you don't, right? So there's clarity in that, no one's saying, your infertility is in your head. But in every other aspect, there's not those clear end points. And so,   Michelle (12:40) Mm   Mm -hmm.   Mm   Sarah Wilson (13:07) if someone's dealing with chronic pain and they aren't getting investigated for endometriosis or some other condition, they can be told it's all in their head. So even if they can see on basic blood work, one or two things that are off, it's like, there, go there, let's do this. And I think that's what's so exciting to me.   Michelle (13:24) Mm -hmm. Right, right.   Yeah, definitely huge. So talk about the immune system. this is one of the things that you can look at, I know that there is a lot of a connection with autoimmune conditions and the gut health and, high inflammation and leaky gut. So talk about that, how people can look into it and how they can address it.   Sarah Wilson (13:53) Absolutely. So I actually also was a microbiome researcher at one point in my profession. It's so important. And even now, like post pandemic, we've seen it so much more important because historically, what do we always say? Is 60 to 80 % of your immune system lives in your gut. Okay. So there is within your gut, there is, it's so interesting. Picture a PVC pipe, right? On the inside, if there's Play -Doh.   Michelle (13:59) awesome. Amazing, though, but it's so important.   Mm   Mm   Sarah Wilson (14:23) that's where the bacteria live, right? But that's actually outside of your body. And so that play -doh is either poop, in those of us who are lovingly chronically constipated, or it's the mucosal lining that the bacteria live within. So that's where the immune system is really, really critical, is within that putty lining. And so what happens is that immune system's job, because it's technically outside of your body, mouth.   Michelle (14:26) Mm   Mm   Sarah Wilson (14:51) all the way down to your anus is outside of your body. Its whole job is to say, are you a food and you're safe? Are you a bacteria and you're safe? Are you a virus and you're not safe? Are you a bacteria and you're not safe? And the whole job of that immune system is to sample and navigate. Do I need to kick off an inflammatory response or do I not? Am I safe or am I not? And so what we're looking at is when we start to have allergies.   and we start to have food responses and all these food sensitivities when we start to have bloating and gas changes in bowel movements. That's all telling us that our immune system either one has identified a bacteria or virus that needs to go and it's kicking off a response to it or two, it has what we call lost oral tolerance. It has lost the ability to know between what's good and what's bad.   Michelle (15:46) Mm.   Sarah Wilson (15:47) And so in both of those situations, that is going to result in inflammation, not just local to our gut, but throughout what we call our peritoneal cavity, right? So that's gonna be your ovaries. I always say, your bowel and your ovaries and your uterus are friends. Like for those of you who can't see it, they're touching, they're friends. So we have that inflammation in our reproductive system. We have that inflammation affecting our liver.   then it goes into our bloodstream. It affects our joints, it affects our brain. That's why we talk so much about the gut brain connection, because there's that inflammation there. But as a practitioner, my job is to sit here and say, is it that we have so much inflammation? There is this absence of an ability to regulate, should I fight this or should I not?   Is it that there's so much damage being caused by inflammation that now we have leaky gut or impermeability, right? Because the immune system will cause damage and it's trying to fight something and there's collateral damage. So is it that or is it that there's bacteria that need to be modified? And so I think it's really helpful, even like thought experiment to think about it in that way, because so much of the time when it comes to the gut, we   Michelle (16:43) Mm   Mm   Sarah Wilson (17:05) are assuming that our symptoms are wrong. Like, what's wrong with my gut? Right? Like, we're a victim to it. Like, our immune system is doing something bad. But nine times out of 10, it's trying its best to protect us. And so our job is to say, what is it protecting you against?   Michelle (17:08) Mm -hmm. Right.   Mm   Mm   Right.   Sarah Wilson (17:25) So when we're navigating and we're going through then, we hear all about probiotics and we hear all about these different things and all of them can be helpful and have their place, right? We hear about armor colostrum all the time these days on different podcasts, right? We hear about all these things. And so I always say, think about them and put them in the context of what I just said. So if we don't have enough good bugs and we add probiotics, which are good bugs,   Michelle (17:36) Mm   Mm right, yeah.   Sarah Wilson (17:52) then that will take us so far. for, again, for those of you who can't see, I've got my hands up, right? Picture it like a bar graph. So if you don't have enough good bugs and that bar is low and you have too many bad bugs, then the dominant state is bad bugs. So if you add a whole bunch of good bugs, then eventually you can turn that dominant state into good bugs. But probiotics are transient, they leave the system. So you still have that low grade bad bug situation.   Michelle (18:06) Mm   Sarah Wilson (18:21) So this is where we hear about berberine, right? We hear about oregano, we hear about black cumin seed, we're hearing so much about all of these herbs now, because what they're doing is they're breaking down the bad bugs to allow the good bugs to grow, to repair the lining. it's, there's such a huge dance with the bugs in the gut and the immune system and how that affects the rest of your body, but what we know for darn sure is that   Michelle (18:23) Mm   Right.   Right.   Sarah Wilson (18:49) There are overgrowths that are happening more than they ever have been before of bad bugs. We know that.   Michelle (18:55) Right. So we're talking about things like SIBO, you know, just that, because that ultimately it starts to kind of go from like the bowels all the way up.   Sarah Wilson (19:04) Yeah, exactly. So SIBO is small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. So it's overgrowth of good bugs in the small intestine. We also have what we call CFO or overgrowth of yeast in the small intestine because the immune system can't defend against the yeast. Then we have bad bugs and parasites, right? So this is where we hear an overgrowth of, I'll throw some names, like Pseudomonas, C. difficile, Clostridium species, E. coli. We have an overgrowth of bad bugs in that situation. And those can be   Michelle (19:11) Mm   Mm   Mm   Mm -hmm. Bye.   Mm   Sarah Wilson (19:34) upper but they can also be lower down. And so that's always what we're navigating is saying, okay, is there, if you have an overgrowth of good bacteria and you add more good bacteria, you're gonna be the person who feels awful on probiotics. You take them, you're gassy, you're distended, okay, in that, yeah.   Michelle (19:49) Right.   Unless, unless they're spore based.   Sarah Wilson (19:56) The SBOs are such an interesting conversation. They're such an interesting conversation because most of the research is coming out of two labs. And so I agree to some extent and I'm pensive. Yeah.   Michelle (19:59) Yeah.   Mm -hmm.   Okay. No, tell me, tell me. I want to hear it because, because I've always been told and I've always learned that spore -based probiotics, because, they, they bypass the small intestine, they go all the way down to, you know, the colon that, and then they, and then they flourish and they change the pH and they, they make it so that it's more hospitable for the good bacteria to grow and not the bad bacteria. A lot of times there's like die -off symptoms and it   Sarah Wilson (20:32) Exactly.   Michelle (20:36) kind of shifts, even though it's transient, it does shift the pH to create it where it's better for a healthier environment.   Sarah Wilson (20:47) Absolutely. So it's just like that bar graph, right? I always say if you give the environment for the good bugs to grow and there's not too many bad ones, then they will grow and take over. If you ever, I always tell people picture like an octopus or a cuttlefish, you know they change colors really rapidly? Our bacteria do the same thing. It's called quorum sensing. And so essentially if you create a hospitalable environment, you have enough mucus. This is the other thing, right? Bacteria need mucus.   Michelle (20:49) Mm   Yeah.   Yeah.   Mm -hmm. Yeah. Mm -hmm.   Mm The mucosal lining. Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (21:13) Exactly. So if you have that integrity, you add probiotics, and then you can change from a red environment, inflamed, the pH is off, there's bad bugs growing to a good environment. If you don't have that mucosal lining, if your immune system is too grumpy, or if you're in a situation where there's too many bad bugs, then you can't fix it by adding more.   Michelle (21:17) Mm -hmm.   Mm   Mm   Mm   Sarah Wilson (21:40) And so that's where we're using antibiotics and antimicrobial herbs and things like that to get that down. Going back to the SBOs, the thing I find really interesting is there's so many, I could like nerd out on this stuff all day long as you can tell, but there's so many factors, right? So when we talk about it bypasses the small intestine, what they mean in that situation is that all bugs are either acid sensitive, temperature sensitive,   Michelle (21:54) It's great stuff though.   Sarah Wilson (22:09) oxygen sensitive or yeah, I went through acid. Those are honestly the main ones. There's nitrogen sensitive, things like that, but those are the main ones. So what they're saying is the acid sensitivity means that they will get, and the temperature and oxygen sensitivity means they're gonna get lower down. But what we're seeing more and more and more is that people's stomach acid is off, their pH is off throughout their whole system. They have all kinds of,   Michelle (22:32) Mm   Sarah Wilson (22:37) you know, temperature sensitivity changes. And we have all kinds of changes in the hydrogen, methane and oxygen levels within our gastrointestinal tract. So what happens is we're not actually controlling where it's going. We're controlling at what environment it takes hold. And because there's so much dysfunction within the gastrointestinal tract in so many of our patients, I'm concerned that it actually could take hold.   and be present at higher levels of the gastrointestinal tract contributing to issues. And I've seen some... Yeah, that's BOs. Yeah.   Michelle (23:10) You mean the spore based ones, the spore based? you, because from what I understand, looking into it is that it won't activate until it gets to the large intestine.   Sarah Wilson (23:23) And that's based on the pH, the oxygen level and the temperature and all of those pieces.   Michelle (23:29) Okay, I see. So you're saying that it could be a different pH and everything will shift if things are so off, up, you know, higher. Got it.   Sarah Wilson (23:36) Exactly.   Exactly. And I've seen severe constipation in patients that take SBOs. It's like the only side effect I see, because you're right, there is a lot less bloating gas, those like three to five day battle between the good and the bad bugs. There's less of that for sure. But I have seen like enough patients that got me saying, okay, what's going on there that take it.   Michelle (23:47) Mm   Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Mm   Sarah Wilson (24:04) and immediately they're super constipated. So we actually use them a lot in diarrhea because of the benefit of that. But it's definitely a space I'm watching the research. It's super interesting. I think just like, so I was, my God, how many years ago now was I a probiotic researcher? least 10. It's a different world, right? Like how exactly, so.   Michelle (24:10) Mm -hmm.   Yeah.   Mm -hmm. yeah, they're learning so much so fast. Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (24:30) Exactly. So that's where I always say, you know, you're a good practitioner when you want to refund everyone every five years. You're like, what was I doing? So I think it's just an evolving conversation, but they definitely do have utility for sure. I think there's just, for me, just having been in a research environment, I know how controlled all of those situations are. And so then when they come out into our patient situations,   Michelle (24:35) Yeah.   Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (24:56) We just need to apply different lenses of thought to it.   Michelle (25:01) Or I mean, you can also add something like Trifola while they're doing that so that you're kind of like counteracting the constipation aspect or maybe some more fiber eventually when they're ready, you know, because sometimes too much of that when things are not great can exacerbate.   Sarah Wilson (25:17) Absolutely. And like we have studies now that are coming out to show that it's alarming. Over 50 % of people have what we call retained fecal matter, which is like constipation when they don't know constipation. And so I think there's so much that we're finding out and there's so much that's going on within the gut microbiome world that will be.   Again, I'm just always so curious to see where it goes and to see what happens with it. Because even I wrote a book in 2018, I guess. So I was writing in 2017 on insulin resistance and how that worked. And like I talked about in Cretins in a big section of that book. This was like pre -Ozempic days. And people at that point were like, what is she talking about? And now it's so accepted. And that's what six years later, right? They're just like, of course.   Michelle (26:08) Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (26:11) So, so much changes so quickly. And I think just staying on top of it is something I value so much. Like even today, I'm teaching an intensive on post -viral immunology for other practitioners, right? So, I'm always trying to navigate what do I see in practice? Because we see thousands of people in advanced women's health. And how is that showing up in the research? And how do we mesh those things and adapt with those things? Because things change so quickly.   Michelle (26:14) Yeah, for sure.   Mm   yeah, definitely. No, I agree. mean, everything just kind of out does itself. Something new comes along. what I find really fascinating is the gut brain relationship and the enteric nervous system and also the vagus nerve and how that impacts. It's kind of like the go between our brain and our gut. And, and also   Sarah Wilson (26:50) Yeah.   Michelle (27:01) the research on that where they've done like studies on meditators and like people in Tibet, Tibetan Buddhists, compared to people that are neighbors that eat the same food, they live in the same environment, but the gut microbiome of the meditators is so much more enriched. So it's kind of like a buy between, yes, we could work from the gut to the brain, then we can also work from the brain to the gut. And it's pretty fascinating.   Sarah Wilson (27:12) Yeah. Yeah.   Absolutely, and even to see the amount of research on people's levels and how that is directly related to yeast infections. We know that that whole gastrointestinal tract, vaginal microbiome, they are so, so, so closely tied to our nervous system and stress response. There's so much, I do.   Michelle (27:34) Mm   Mm That's interesting.   Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (27:52) stool testing on myself pretty frequently. I would say even more so than patients, I do it on my family. And it's so interesting to see how it shifts because again, diet and lifestyle can stay very similar. So it's like interesting what caused that shift, what caused that shift, how was stress involved with these things. it's, yeah, it's so fun. It's so fun.   Michelle (27:58) Yeah.   Mm -hmm.   Yeah, it's fascinating for sure. And then also, think about the gut microbiome, I think about the changes, I think about inflammation. I think about the additives we're eating and we're exposed to. mean, those are the biggest things because it feels like it's outside of our control. I mean, it kind of is until we know about it. It's, know, we go eat some places, we have no idea what they're adding and we know that   Sarah Wilson (28:33) Mm   Michelle (28:40) thickeners, I mean, there's so many things that can be added. We know that they can really throw off the gut microbiome and that throws off inflammation. So it's kind of like an unintended consequence because you're not, most of us don't know that unless we're doing what we're doing and learn about it.   Sarah Wilson (29:00) And then you're looking, is there SLS in this? Is this disrupting my microbiome?   Michelle (29:04) Yeah, but that's what it is. And that's why when people say, I guess, to simplify it is just don't eat processed food as much as, try to avoid it as much as possible. Because even like the good kind can impact your gut. mean, like good processed food, because of all of the excess ingredients that they add in there, that could really throw off your microbiome. That's why when people say just, I guess, like, if you want to say something that's more generalized, is more whole foods, foods that come from the   earth and also foods that are not sprayed with toxins, know, I mean, to try to avoid it. It does feel like an uphill battle.   Sarah Wilson (29:44) Patients are so overwhelmed, right? It's you're trying to eat whole foods and then you look and they're like, okay, well, what about genetically modified agents? And then what about what's being sprayed on them? And I always say that in of itself is a stress response, right? So we talk about stress and then we make food such a stress. And so I always say to people, the reality is that you could probably do better than you're doing right now.   Michelle (29:45) Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (30:12) and what feels reasonable, what doesn't feel overwhelming, right? And we'll actually sit there and go through and say, okay, I need you to eat a low insulin demand approach, because insulin is such a huge inflammatory compound. Insulin is the hormone that controls blood sugar, but it's like 75 plus percent of us are insulin resistant in today's day and age. So it's a huge, it's an epidemic. So I'm like, okay, don't eat a ton of carbohydrates,   Michelle (30:14) Mm   Yeah. Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (30:43) I hate good carbs, bad carbs, but berries, all of those highly colorful fruits and vegetables, don't count them. Eat away, enjoy your life. I'm not talking about that. We all know we shouldn't eat as much bread. Deep fried foods are not helping anyone, right? The starchy carbohydrates, rice, like that. We have to watch those things. We built a culture on creating addiction to carbohydrates. So we have to be careful of those things. But it's like, how can you add two servings of vegetables? If you can...   Michelle (30:52) Yeah.   Nope.   True.   Sarah Wilson (31:12) buy local and you know where they're coming from, rock on. Like it's summer here right now. There's farms that I know do not spray anything, but they cannot certify organic because they can't afford it. Okay, wonderful. I can go there, right? Buy frozen organic. It is pretty much the same price to buy frozen organic as it is to buy broccoli right now, right? And saves my life prepping it. It is picked right.   Michelle (31:26) Yeah.   Mm -hmm. 100%.   Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (31:41) It is frozen right away. There's benefits to it. So it's like, do that. Okay, then we look at our meat. How, or if you're eating meat or not, How is it being raised? Would you want to go visit that farm? Because if you would not feel good around that, then energetically that has an impact, right? What hormones are going into it? We look at those things. And the reality is, if you can't...   afford to make those choices wonderful. That happens. What do we do to feel the best about the options that we have in front of us? Fundamentally, I always say balance blood sugar and a nervous system that is stable and you're not having anxiety every time you put food in your mouth because you don't know what's in it. That is going to take us almost just as far as micromanaging every piece and every ingredient. Whole foods more often   eaten away that fills you up, that makes you feel good. And everything else from there is customizable. But I think I hear so many patients, they get so caught up in fresh, organic, grass fed, grass finished, researching the farm, and then they end up in McDonald's.   Michelle (32:57) Yeah, that's not good. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (32:59) because they're so overwhelmed, right? They're like, I'm just hungry. And so I always say like a happy balance is always gonna be the goal.   Michelle (33:08) Yeah, no doubt, for sure.   Sarah Wilson (33:10) And your microbiome loves colors and there's not many of those at McDonald's, so. Exactly.   Michelle (33:14) Yeah, variety for sure. Yes, totally. And then you were talking about like symptoms even without a diagnosis,   Sarah Wilson (33:24) So the blood work is one piece, right? So even without a diagnosis, you can do complete blood count. You can do something called a C -reactive protein, which is a marker of gut inflammation, liver inflammation. You can do an arethrocytes sedimentation rate. These are blood markers. But I also say, if you are struggling with joint aches and pains, if you feel like you're just getting older, if you are dealing with brain fog, if you...   Michelle (33:26) Mm   Mm   Sarah Wilson (33:53) have pain with your periods that we have normalized so much as a society. If you have period poops, if you have PMS that is affecting your quality of life, like we have so many of these symptoms that we've been told, I'm just getting older, I have aches and pains, I'm just bloated and gassy, it's not a big deal, I just have brain fog, I'm losing my memory, right? I can't remember where I put my keys.   I'm dealing with like menstrual challenge. That is all inflammation based, all of it. And as someone I think who lives in this world all the time, it's so easy to forget what it feels like to feel crappy until you get hit. And I have two small children. I have a two and a five year old. And so we're sick all the time, right? Like it's just the reality, daycare, school, people get sick. And   It's so easy to just again, lose track of what good actually feels like. And it doesn't include those things, right? You should wake up in the morning feeling rested, unless you have a child who has nightmares about monkeys, which happened to me. Right? But you should be able to sustain that energy throughout the day without eating food. You shouldn't have to compromise your activity and your work schedule based on pain.   Michelle (35:05) Right.   Sarah Wilson (35:17) and energy levels and your menstrual cycle or your digestion. And so many people are living in that state where they are.   Michelle (35:22) Yeah.   And so when you do have people that come in with inflammation, what are some of the ways that you address that   Sarah Wilson (35:33) absolutely. So my belief structures, there's only five to seven causes of disease, right? So we go through blood sugar dysregulation and insulin resistance, the gut microbiome, immune dysregulation, we've got liver issues, we have nutrient deficiencies, the nervous system, and then we have the components of cellular energy production, or what we call our mitochondria, right? So these are the components of health. And at the end of every piece of that,   you're going to have a stress response and an inflammatory response, which is what most people are dealing with in today's day and age is they're struggling between that balance of stress response and inflammation. So my job is always going through those components and saying, which are the top two or three for you, right? If we're talking about microbiome issues and the immune system as two key pieces.   And then we say, okay, let's compliment that with the nervous system because we just talked about that. If those are someone's top three pieces, then first and foremost, we have to go through and say, what are the biggest obstacles? What are your gut symptoms? Does that suggest that you might have an overgrowth of methane species? Right? Does that, that tends to be constipation, lots of gas that doesn't smell great. Is it suggesting that you have hydrogen overgrowth? Right?   that's lots of gas that doesn't necessarily have a smell. We can go through, pick those apart. Do you have a history of parasites? Right, do you camp a lot? Those pieces, we're using antimicrobials in those situations to try to create some stability. We're trying to understand how that's gonna relate to blood sugar, et cetera. When it comes to looking at the immune system, there are key nutrients like vitamin D. If you don't have vitamin D,   at the right level, which most of us do not, that's a master controller of your immune system. So we need to have that in place. We also need to look at your viral history. So we know right now, research is showing that you can retain components of viruses for years. We've seen that people have reactivation of chronic viruses and those are directly affecting the lining of their uterus, they're directly affecting their ovaries.   Michelle (37:44) Mm   Sarah Wilson (37:55) and their whole pelvic health. So in that situation, we're saying, okay, what antivirals need to come into the mix? And what do we need, again, to look at from a holistic perspective? I know you've had so many people on here that talk about NAC and N -acetylcysteine and alpha -lipoic acid and CoQ10. And oftentimes what they're doing is just helping with those inflammatory cycles.   Michelle (38:22) Mm   Sarah Wilson (38:22) right, they're helping to restore balance to that inflammatory pathway. And then the nervous system comes in because that affects blood flow that affects your immune system's ability to do its job. And we say what works for you? Is that nerve nerves, right? That's where our valerian our passionflower, our zycephos come into the mix and are so beautiful. Is that going to be something where it's we're looking at meditation and walking?   and all of those pieces. that's really the approach I take, is I say, in those five to seven different causes that someone could have, what are the most important pieces for them? And then we dig into it at depth to say what components, whether that's using blood work, whether that's using functional testing, honestly, at this point, having seen as many patients as I've seen, sometimes it's insane. You're like, okay, I think we need anti -microbials.   some valerian and passion flower, and we need to correct the nutrient deficiencies that are present with respect to vitamin D and some of those antioxidants. We need to get enough protein, more colors, Bob's your uncle. But it's, I always say, health is so simple, and we have so much time and energy dedicated to making it really hard. And...   Michelle (39:31) Right.   Sarah Wilson (39:42) the more sophisticated I get, the more sophisticated the research gets, the more I go down rabbit holes, the more I come back to the same things. And I think there's so much peace in that too, to know that, yes, I have a lot of patients with very chronic health issues, with very significant imbalances, but the body wants to come back to those places and we just need to figure out which levers to pull to get it back to health.   Michelle (39:49) Right.   I love how you put that. It's true. It's just like, are the levers to pull, to try to help it do its job. what it wants to do really, it's like its purpose.   Sarah Wilson (40:24) Exactly. it's so, like sometimes you're pulling the same levers in rotation, right? You're like, okay, blood sugar, stress response, liver. And then you're like, inflammation, gut microbiome, stress response, blood sugar, liver. It's, you sometimes have to cycle back to those pieces. There's like the layers of the healing onion. So as we always say, but it's, there's so much simplicity that can be had within all of it. And I really want people to feel that because I think,   Michelle (40:28) Mm -hmm.   Right. Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (40:50) There's a lot of energy now being dedicated to feeling like health is gate kept and it's not, right? This is why we come on these podcasts. This is why we do these things. If anyone today says, I feel empowered, I can take action here. I'm gonna add more vegetables. I'm gonna add more colors. I'm gonna go for a walk after my meals, ideally in nature. I'm gonna look at what brings me joy.   Michelle (40:57) Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (41:17) and include more of that. I'm gonna work on my boundaries, I'm gonna correct my nutrient deficiencies, and I'm gonna look at my microbiome. You will get so far, so far in your health. And that to me is just, it's so beautiful.   Michelle (41:26) Yeah.   yeah, for sure. mean, it's really empowerment. So, well, this is great. You shared so much amazing information. I could definitely keep talking to you because there's just so much that we can keep unpacking. But if people are interested in working with you, want to find out more about you, how can they find you?   Sarah Wilson (41:53) Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you. know I was, these are always such loaded conversations because we start and it's like, do we go here? Do we go here? So exactly.   Michelle (42:00) I know. There's just a, a, branches out and it has, it starts to take a life of its own. And then I'm like, okay, well, we still can't keep going, going, going. at one point.   Sarah Wilson (42:11) I know totally. Yeah, so I, as I said, for anyone listening in Canada, I own Advanced Women's Health. So we have clinics across Ontario and BC and we're expanding. I have a whole team of practitioners that do clinical rounds every day and I work with all the time. For those of you in the US, I do have courses where I train naturopathic doctors. So if you like this approach and you want people who are in the US and beyond.   then you can always reach out to my team as well. Their email is just info at advancedwomenshealth .ca and they've got that list of practitioners. So in either situation, we can help you out. I also poke around on Instagram. I do not post on there as much as I should, but it's always a goal. And yeah, I'm just so happy to connect with the audience.   Michelle (42:52) Amazing. Well, Dr. Wilson, this was very informative and I love the fact that you do so much research and this is based on like real data and real information and you really understand it. Your mind tends to work that way, which is awesome because you have to find a career where your mind is really able to absorb that information and then apply it. And it sounds like you found a perfect.   career for what you do and you're passionate about it as well.   Sarah Wilson (43:20) Thank you. Yeah, no, I'm so fortunate. I love what I do. And like, I'm so fortunate that I get to build a team of people that begrudgingly love my brain. They're always on calls because we meet every day. So our team of practitioners meets every day and they're always asking questions and I'll spin out on something and I'll be like, welcome to the Ted Talk. Sorry, that just happened.   Michelle (43:31) No, it's very interesting.   Amazing.   That's great. Well, that's how you know you love it. That's how you know it.   Sarah Wilson (43:44) Yes. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, thank you so much for having me. It's been such a joy. yeah, I just I love sharing this information. I'm happy to come back and share more anytime.   Michelle (43:55) Yes. So thank you so much for coming on.    

On today's episode, Dr. Laurena White and Michelle discuss the importance of preparing the body for pregnancy, especially for women who have irregular menstrual cycles or reproductive health issues. Dr. White emphasizes the need for a holistic approach that combines traditional and Western medicine. She shares stories of women who were told they had premature ovarian failure but were able to conceive naturally with the right support. Dr. White also discusses the misconception of a 'geriatric pregnancy' at age 35 and the importance of making lifestyle changes to create a healthy environment for conception.   Episode Takeaways:   Integrative care and a holistic approach to healthcare are essential for providing comprehensive and effective treatment. Unexplained infertility requires thorough examinations and consideration of both male and female factors. Birth control can have long-lasting effects on the body and may require time for restoration before attempting to conceive. Preconception care is crucial for optimizing fertility and should include lifestyle changes and seeking the right practitioners. Finding the right practitioner who listens and takes a personalized approach is key to a successful fertility journey.  Preparing the body for pregnancy is crucial, especially for women with irregular menstrual cycles or reproductive health issues. A holistic approach that combines traditional and Western medicine can be beneficial in optimizing fertility. Making lifestyle changes, such as improving sleep, nutrition, and stress management, can create a healthy environment for conception.   Guest Bio:   Dr. White is obsessed with health, wellness, and most importantly...healing. In 2018, when she embarked on an entrepreneurial journey and centered her firm around an integrative womanist ethic of care, she had a vision that bonafide healing of chronic, complex health conditions ought to be more attainable, inclusive, and (yes)enjoyable. Within a few years of launch, she had grown a profitable, bootstrapped firm with a full-time team of one to a 15-person team in two additional locations in the Washington, DC metro area.    With over 20 years of service and experience in the field of women's health ranging from labor support doula to obstetrics/gynecology and reproductive endocrinology/infertility including acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine, she is a positive disruptor. As the Chief Operations Officer of The Eudaimonia Center, an integrative reproductive medicine and women's health firm, she leads a team that facilitates the health, wellness, and healing of complex women's health challenges including but not limited to uterine fibroids, endometriosis, polycystic ovarian syndrome, chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, and fertility challenges without the use of unnecessary pharmaceutical drugs (including synthetic hormones and painkillers) and fruitlessly invasive surgical interventions. In a country whose healthcare system falls woefully short of addressing the comprehensive needs of “the least of these”, namely Black women and their children, she aims to revolutionize the industry one healing experience at a time by being fertile ground in a barren land.    While building a firm may have looked effortless from the outside, starting a business with no resources or funding quickly forced her to realize that early-stage entrepreneurship was anything but transparent. She began documenting her experiences and learnings while focusing on helping more women learn about integrative health, the womanist ethic of care, and the true meaning of healing. She has reimagined what comprehensive women's healthcare could and should be.  As a result, she integrated her firm by forming a synergistic flow between conventional medicine and traditional medicine modalities, so the care women receive is not only transformative, but it's also restorative.    Social media Facebook - The Eudaimonia Center  Instagram - @theeudaimoniacenter  LinkedIn - Laurena White, MD, MPH, DiplAc Twitter - @eu_daimonism  Website link - https://laurenawhite.com/ Podcast: https://womenshealthwisdomandwine.buzzsprout.com/     For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Dr. White. I'm so excited to have you today.   Laurena White (00:03) Thank you so much, Michelle. glad to be   Michelle (00:06) So Lorena and I spoke on her podcast. She had me on her podcast, Women's Health, Wisdom and Wine. She loves wine and I do too. And she actually just came back from Paris. So I'm sure you've had some good wine there. And Lorena, if I may call you Lorena, Dr. Lorena, I feel like you're a friend, so I'm calling you Lorena. Yeah, so she's incredible. She has such an incredible story. when   Laurena White (00:20) Definitely.   Of course, yes. Yes, we're colleagues, yes.   Michelle (00:34) talked to her, met her the first time. I actually, before even meeting her, I took her class on fibroids and it was such a great class and I remember recognizing her and your story is so amazing. And I would love for you to share your story because I think it's fascinating. What I love about your story specifically is first of all, you've been to Cuba, which is freaking awesome. But then also the fact that you have   Laurena White (00:56) Yes.   Michelle (01:00) like a foot in both worlds of Western and Eastern medicine and really integrate those two. And also what I love about you is that have a different approach. You really look at people as a whole and really spend time to get to know them and listen to them. It's just, I if I can clone you, like, it would be awesome.   Laurena White (01:04) Yes.   Trust me, I'm working on it. I am trying to clothe myself because I really do feel like how we practice and how our firm works is how I feel and this isn't with no hubris, but how medicine should be. And I honestly believe that we are better together. And so often it's us versus them. And that's not just in medicine, but it's almost in everything. There's just these power dynamics that are not serving.   Michelle (01:31) Yes.   Laurena White (01:46) the people or the population that we desire to serve, they're trying to serve others' egos. And that's one of the things that frustrate me. That's why I integrated our firm, because I truly do believe in an integrative approach to care. And we have added a womanist ethic of care to that component that takes it even a notch further. And so the original question was kind of telling how I got started or how I got from there to here.   Michelle (01:51) Mm   You have to tell your story because it's so cool.   Laurena White (02:12) I'm gonna try to summarize it as quickly as possible. I always knew I wanted to be a physician. I thought I wanted to be a pediatrician. But once I got to my Peds rotation, I realized I love the children, but I could not stand their parents. And that wasn't going to end up with a good career for anybody nor happy families. And I didn't think I was interested in...   women's health from the OB -GYN perspective, just because I thought who wants to look at vaginas all day? Like that's just not seemed like something that I wanted to do. However, when I got to that rotation, I started with OB and life changed. Literally my life changed because from even before I helped deliver a baby, it was about, I had been exposed to women's health. had been involved with women's circles in my own family.   through vaginal steaming, I had been a doula, labor support doula, so I had been around that aspect, but I realized there's so much more to conception and childbirth, and that 10 months in between, there's so many things that can go wrong, and we don't even talk about those aspects. And so really being able to bear witness to that miracle of birth, I realized that the word miracle is exactly what that is, because we only see those perfect endings.   when we're on the outside, don't see the everything that goes on in between and what a lot of moms have to go through, not just to get pregnant, but to stay pregnant. And so really being able to bear witness to that miracle of birth, it brought tears to my eyes. And I started wearing goggles because my colleagues are like, you cry at every birth, suck it up. And I was like, and I, you know, I tried, I was like, why do I do this? I was like, why do I cry every time?   Michelle (03:52) I'd be the same.   Laurena White (03:56) But it's, mean, I'm a softy, I'm in love with love, and I think that, you know, mother -child relationship, you know, it's it's overpowering, it's overwhelming in terms of how intensely bonded that can be when it's healthy and when that whole process just unfolds right in front of your eyes from the time someone, you know, tells you, hey, I'm pregnant, or I think I'm pregnant, to the time, like, you're literally holding that baby in your hands, presenting them to their parent.   So it was amazing. And so by the time I got to my Gain rotation, I also realized, hey, this is so much deeper than I thought it would be. It's about education. It's about empowerment. It's about making sure people know their body parts. And not just with 12 and 13 year olds, but also with 41 and 42 year olds who have had children and still don't know where babies come from. And so I was like, I can be an educator as well through this process. And it   that was also empowering for me because I knew there was still work to be done. So in between those things, I worked for a federally qualified health center, loved my job, but it was burning me out. I was a sister, a friend, a transportation, a social worker, interpreter. The good thing that I do speak more than one language, so that helped. But it was just a lot for what was supposed to be a basically checkup appointment or an annual visit or.   you know, something like that, and it turned into a lot of other things. And when you're helping the indigent and the English as a second or fourth language, and those who just are either immigrants or underhoused or unhoused, I mean, it's just, it was just a lot. And as much as I, my personality doesn't have a switch off valve to say, okay, this is outside your lane.   it sees a person who needs help and it's like, okay, you're the one here and they're asking for you and they're sitting in front of you now. So do something. But I was quickly getting burnt out because there was just so much every single day that I was getting home just exhausted. Happy that I was able to do the things that I was able to do, but still just really, really exhausted and burnt out because there wasn't enough time for me, my family, or the other things, aspects of my life that were also important. And   After that, I was like, I also wanted to get out of Pennsylvania. And so I wound up working for the Surgeon General during the Obama administration. I was a women's health consultant there and one of the sweetest jobs I've ever had in life. That was after though, I came back from Cuba. I lived in Cuba for six years. And then I lived in Haiti for two years. And that's where I realized what kind of physician I wanted to be. So Cuba and Haiti back to Pennsylvania, then DC and...   When the administration changed, everything for me changed. I knew I could no longer stay in working in that administration the way that I had been. My job was not secure. Things were changing at a pace that wasn't healthy for me, wasn't healthy for my position, it wasn't healthy for my reputation. And so I realized, hey, it's either gonna, you're gonna either go back and get an MBA or you're going to open up your own firm and figure it out.   Going back to school, I'm a nerd and I love studying. I love all those things. So going back to school was not even a big deal for me. I had already gone back to school to become an acupuncture. So going back to school again to get an MBA was just par for the course for me. But I realized I wanted to do this and I knew knew how to take care of my clients, my patients. So I was gonna start there. And that's what I did in 2018. We opened up our own firm. I opened up my firm   started with me and three other part -time people and practitioners, and now we're up to 15, plus myself, and we have two locations, working on our third. So yeah, it's been a whirlwind. It's been, it's like all these good things. It didn't necessarily start off that way. Like the first three months when I opened the door, I was like, where are all the people? They say you build it and they'll come. And that is not how it works.   Michelle (07:39) It's amazing.   Yeah. Yeah.   Laurena White (07:57) You build it and you spend a lot of time looking at the window wondering is the electricity, know, is the phone jack working? You pick it up. Okay, there is a dial tone. So the phone does work The doors bolted shut like what is going on and It just is one of those things like you know building something from the ground up is just not the what you see in the movies There's a lot of heartbreak. There's a lot of other kind of stuff that goes into that but it never has been not rewarding and it definitely   built my character in ways that I didn't know I needed building. Patience is not one of my virtues, and so that definitely showed me, know, dig deeper and harder and into making the thing that I wanted to see come to fruition fully become what it is now. And it's growing.   Michelle (08:41) Awesome. And also, I mean, really based on your background, I imagine there's not a lot of places like yours.   Laurena White (08:48) that I know of. When we started, one of my mentors was in California and she was shutting down her, shuttering her whole office because she's like, it's too much work, know, between trying to do all the integrative aspects of things and then insurance. And it was wild. And so just when I was opening up, we had been talking for maybe three or four months and she's like, I can't do this anymore because it's just too much work. And I was thinking, know, in California where everything is so progressive and everybody is,   what I feel is already advanced and she's having issues. What is that going to mean for me? But I realized I believed in what we do, the work we do, how we do it, our approach. And I bet on myself and I still continue betting on myself because I don't believe that we're, you we got this far just for it to be a flop or a failure. I believe we're steadily growing and people are steady realizing that there are other options. Even if it's not us, there's something else out there.   And I think part of that is realizing that it doesn't have, you don't have to be stuck in the same Western medicine system, not being valued, not being seen, not being heard. And with us, you've seen, and valued. And I think everyone deserves that. And as people are starting to realize that they're becoming empowered and whether they choose to work with us or somebody else, they're realizing that they have other decisions that they can make and they don't have to be stuck in a rut.   with providers and practitioners that aren't taking care of   Michelle (10:12) I think that's huge because I think most people don't really think that they have an option or they just think they don't even know that anything else exists. so talk about that. Like what's the ideal way a patient should feel like when they come in, like what are the things that should be looked at? Cause I, from what I hear a lot is that people want to get like certain   worked on or more blood worked on, say, you know, their TSH is off and they want to do a full thyroid, there's a lot of pushback from their doctors or, you don't need that. this is fine. And then sometimes even other intuition, they're like, no, I feel like I need something. And then later on, they find out that intuition was right. They had like a hunch and you know, that's it's a real thing intuition, you know, so, so talk to, because I want people hearing this.   Laurena White (10:46) Mm Yeah.   Right.   Yeah.   Michelle (11:05) that are really on the journey, they're going through all of this. I want them to know like what they can have, what should be the quality of care that they should be receiving.   Laurena White (11:05) huh.   Absolutely. And I think that you hit the nail on the head is that, especially as women, we have that thing, whether you call it intuition or a feeling or whatever you want to call it, it's there. And a lot of times we ignore it because it doesn't fall in the parameters of what everyone else is saying or what the doctor told you or what your friends tell you or something else. But you're constantly being told, no, you're normal or you're fine or it's something else other than something that you know.   Michelle (11:44) It's like a dismissal. Yeah.   Laurena White (11:45) It'd be off. Yes, complete, yes, that's the word, dismissal. And that's where the womanist ethic of care comes into place, is that when you tell us there's something off and I can't pinpoint it based on my diagnostic skills, which I do take pride in, then it's like, okay, then let's figure it out together. What have you tried? What works? What doesn't work?   I'm not one for just running a bunch of tests either, just for the sake of running tests, but I also realized that with blood work, physicians primarily get reimbursed on the basic blood work. There are other blood work that is so expensive that is not covered by insurance and it's out of pocket. So they don't run those because they're not going to get reimbursed. Or they're looking at normal ranges. If it's between this and this, it's falling in the normal range, but they're not looking at ratios.   And so you're getting your blood work panel back and it says everything's in the normal range, but some of those ranges are not in the normal ratio. So when you're just looking at numbers and everything says normal and they're just saying, okay, everything's normal, but the ratios are off, that's an explanation for potentially some of the conditions or the symptoms that one is experiencing. But also are they even running the right tests? And if they're not running the right tests or the correct tests in order to make the accurate diagnosis,   they're going to continue telling you that there's nothing wrong. Everything's fine to the point of even hinting that it's in your head or you're making it up, which is also one of the things that really annoy me because when someone is telling you there's something wrong and it's not the first time and it's not the complaining Janeys, but someone who does the things and they, and you can see that they've been at this for years, months. Now's the time for me to listen because there's something that's clearly not being addressed.   Michelle (13:09) Mm   Laurena White (13:33) And that's again where the womanist ethic of care comes into place because if I don't have the answer, we're gonna seek and find it together. I do believe I'm a solution finder. I don't call myself a problem solver because who wants to chase problems? I don't. I wanna find solutions. Yes. Yeah. I mean, who wants to, you run away from problems. You don't run to them, but you run to solutions. And so when we're working together, talking about your symptoms, really asking the questions that we learned.   Michelle (13:42) Love that.   I love that though. Solution Finder. That's awesome.   Yes.   Laurena White (14:02) in acupuncture school that we never ask in Western medicine. We're talking about your sleep, your diet, when you eat, how you eat, your bowel movements, your urinary habits, your sleep, whether you dream, are you how to call all these idiosyncratic questions that are never asked in Western medicine, but they're more comprehensive because if you have trouble falling asleep or trouble staying asleep mean two completely different things. And when we just ask,   Michelle (14:30) Mm -hmm. Right.   Laurena White (14:31) How are your periods? And someone says, okay. Okay, regular, good, mean absolutely nothing to me because it tells me nothing about you. When I ask you how are you sleeping and you're saying, fine, I don't know what time you go to bed. I don't know what time you wake up. I don't know if you wake up three times in the middle of the night. I don't know if you're having hot sweats in the middle of the night. Are you dreaming? Are your dreams vivid? How many times are this happening per night? Some people think that if they're dreaming, it's a good thing. But when you're dreaming and you remember your dreams,   you might as well be awake. So you're not waking up well rested because your mind is still going. Your mind is still engaged, just like where my mind is engaged right now as I talk to you. So if you're remembering your dreams every single night and they're vivid, you're not well rested. But some people have been thinking, I have a dream every night or I have these very wild dreams. And they're thinking it's something that's a yes, yeah. And it's like, whoa, no, those vivid dreams are actually keeping you from getting a well night.   Michelle (15:20) Right, this is all Chinese medicine, yeah.   Laurena White (15:27) Well rested night sleep and yes, we all dream but for the most part You don't remember them and that means you've been in deep sleep and getting that well rested restorative sleep So they're just nuanced things like that that I find that we do differently and really help us be able to get to the healing aspect of things instead of the symptom chasing things and so When we really take time to ask the right questions to get the right answers. We're able to get results   with clients that have never been able to get results in any other capacity because we're looking at the root cause, the underlying condition, and not just the constellation of symptoms.   Michelle (16:07) For sure. And one of the things that I hear a lot is, you know, the unexplained infertility diagnosis. And I'm sure for you specifically, you're like, wait, because you look at it in so many different ways that you could probably pick up on things that the next OB will not be picking up on.   Laurena White (16:12) Yes. Yeah.   Mm -hmm.   Right. Yeah. Well, I unexplained infertility and we always like to say fertility challenges instead of infertility because that kind of borderlines on like you are sterile and I'm like, and it could be your ovaries. It could be your womb. It could be a lot of different things. So you're just having fertility challenges. And so when I look at unexplained, my thing is, OK, maybe it's unexplained under Western medicine guidelines. But when I look at things, I'm looking at OK.   Michelle (16:33) I know I don't like the word, the I word either.   Laurena White (16:51) Let's look at your period in all its four stages. Is it the follicular phase? Is it the luteal phase? Okay. Is it menstruation? Is it that second part of your follicular phase? Are you ovulating? And is your luteal phase short or long? And are you hot? Are you cold? Like all those different aspects. How healthy are they? So if I look at your cycle length and your cycle length is 21 days, you're probably not ovulating. And if you are ovulating, then your luteal phase is probably super short.   And even if you had a perfect product of conception, there's no place to land. So now we're dealing with, is it your ovaries or is it eaters? So, and then, you know, the other end of the spectrum, if your cycle length is maybe, let's say 45 days, and we're talking still consistent 45 days, then you're probably not ovulating until more toward like day 28, day 30, something like that. But everyone's telling you, you ovulate around day 14. So you're having sex around day 14 and there's no egg there.   you're not getting pregnant. So I think a lot of those things are just the easy things that we don't even, we take for granted. And then when there's irregularities, what is the irregularity and where is it coming from? And I am not an, I'll say it out loud, I'm not an advocate of birth control because it is a synthetic hormone and an endocrine disruptor. And when people are on birth control for years at a time, sometimes decades at a time, it messes up the whole entire menstrual cycle.   not just the menstrual bleeding part, the menstruation part, but the actual day one to day one component. And so some of that work that we're doing is trying to get the cycle to some level of regularity where the person knows, okay, you're ovulating now because why you're looking at your cervical mucus. Some people don't even have any cervical mucus or know when and how to check it. And so those are things that we don't even have to argue about. If you're seeing cervical mucus, now we can time some things because you are ovulating.   If you don't know how to look for those things, now it's my job to help you start ovulating. Or, wow, your cycle length is too short. Or your cycle length is too long. Or you have a blocked tube. All of these things we can work with, but it depends on what you already know about your cycle or don't know about your cycle. And I think unexplained infertility is one of those catch -all phrases because people don't take the time to do the proper examination.   not just physically, but to ask the right questions. And sometimes simply asking the right questions, I find out, your cycles are too short or you're ovulating early, and day 10. And if you're ovulating at day 10, the egg isn't mature enough. Even again, if there's perfect sperm, it's not, you know, it's not gonna be fertilized well enough to implant. Sometimes it's, you know, the uterine lining is too thin because the luteal phase is too short. And then my favorite, sometimes it's not the woman.   Sometimes it's her male partner who refuses to get checked, who refuses to go get a sperm analysis, who does or...   Michelle (19:38) Right. my God. Yes. Totally. Yes. And then I've even heard some some REs not even asking about the husband. I'm like, what? that. It's so bad. It is. It's it's so horrible. Yeah.   Laurena White (19:51) Which is criminal, yeah. To me, that's criminal. Yeah, it's worse than bad because now you have this woman jumping through all these hoops, getting pricked and prodded and poked and stabbed and all these things. And it's like, wait a minute, do we know what your partner's sperm analysis is? Has he had it? he knows his sperm as well. Based on what? Because he can ejaculate? Do you know the contents of   Michelle (20:18) Right, exactly.   Laurena White (20:20) Can you tell me? Can he tell me? Can you tell me what the semen concentration is? Can you tell me what the sperm count is? Can you tell me what the sperm shape is? Can you tell me what the mortality is? If he can tell me those four things every time he ejaculates, then we have no problem. The fact is he can't. And until you get an examination, none of us can. Somebody has to look at those things. And it could be, yes, he has great sperm count, but are they messed up from years   let's say smoking or over a simple thing is he's a avid bike rider and that will aspect sperm. But there things that we can do even with men that are easier than the things that we do with men. They can take their herbal blend and in two months, boom, sperm count is healthy because men make sperm at a different. Yeah, it's just definitely simpler. So it's not as invasive. doesn't require as much. Definitely changing some habits and making some lifestyle changes. But I   Michelle (20:49) Right. Exactly.   Right? Totally. Yeah. It's more simple, for sure.   Laurena White (21:18) that's my biggest pet peeve is that we are still not addressing male and female factor. And when they're both male and female factor issues, both of them need to be addressed. And a lot of times partners are just not willing to do that. And that can be diagnostic in terms of the healthiness of that relationship.   Michelle (21:29) absolutely.   Yes. And also, I mean, I love that you mentioned birth control because so many doctors will put people, including myself when I was younger, like on the birth control pill and be like, okay, when, when you're ready to get pregnant, you just get off and you just try. Right. It's just, no, it does not.   Laurena White (21:44) Mm -hmm.   No, it doesn't work that way. It doesn't work that way. And I wish it would, then we wouldn't have as many of these problems. You could just stay on the birth control pill till you were ready and boom, as soon as you stop taking your pill, everything, but it doesn't work that way. It hijacks your body's endocrine system. And so just because you stopped taking it, it has been a threshold. And I say, if you were on it for six years, it's going to take a lot of intensive work to clear that actual synthetic hormone from your body and   help your body realize what its endogenous hormones are supposed to be doing because they've been unemployed for the entire time that you're on birth control. Yeah. So it's just not that easy. that has not been, don't, people don't necessarily educate clients and their patients about that turnaround time. And they're misinformed. And unfortunately that misinformation leads to potentially some life, life changes and lifestyle changes that aren't taking place.   Michelle (22:26) It's true. Yeah. Yeah, it hasn't been used.   Laurena White (22:48) when they could and should be happening and unnecessary and undue harms when people are trying to conceive.   Michelle (22:56) Yeah, for sure. So for people who are trying to conceive, what are some of the steps they should take with doctors? how should they find the right practitioner? like it's a game changer when you find the right practitioner.   Laurena White (23:07) Yeah. Yeah, I think the first thing is being like, do some research, find out people who had some great relationships, but don't necessarily take that for, you know, the lock, sock and barrel because it could be, hey, this person liked them because they were in and out. They told them what to do, how to do it. And they just did it and they appreciated that. Some people want a little bit more handholding. They want to feel coddled. And I will say the IVF industry or   know, ART as an industry is not about a lot of soft and mushy, cuddly aspect. They're a machine. They get people in so they can get people out and, you know, cycle after cycle. And if your provider is just like, OK, you had had an unsuccessful cycle and they're like, OK, we'll try again next month or we can start again next month. That's a red flag. Your body's not ready. Your body is not ready for another cycle.   Michelle (24:00) my God, I'm so happy you're saying this. Thank you, Lauren. Honestly, that is so important.   Laurena White (24:03) It just is not going to happen. Yes.   Yes. And that's money. Your body is not ready. If you had, let's say you're you went through everything and in what's the month? be in August. August. was an unsuccessful, whether it be a transfer or retrieval. And they're like, OK, we'll try again in September. Your body is so not ready for that experience. And I believe the industry as a whole preys on women and their vulnerable vulnerability and their desperation.   For some women, yes, they undergo five, six cycles and they're successful. I am under the guise that after three cycles, especially with no time in between, enough time for restoration and ability to recover, it's not gonna happen. And does it happen? Yes, absolutely all the time. But like, that's not a guarantee. A lot of people think, I'm gonna do IVF and I'm guaranteed a baby. The answer is you're not. And it costs a lot of money for IVF.   So going back to that original question, what should you be doing? There's a thing called preconception care. How are you taking care of your body before you even start to try to get pregnant? Most people try to like, the moment they're trying, they're like, I'm gonna get healthy once I get pregnant. That is the worst time to start trying any new exercise routine, new dietary lifestyle change. That stuff happens before you get pregnant. That's the first thing.   And then it's the interconception care. What are you doing if you're planning on getting pregnant again? What are you doing during that time? And really being able to do some of these things. Like a lot of people will come to me and they're like, I'm having my transfer today. Can I come in and get an acupuncture treatment or I'm having my transfer today? And I've never seen them before. And my thing is absolutely. But keep in mind, these things work better and best as preconception care. When you've been seeing your acupuncturist, you've been seeing your massage therapist, you've been seeing   you know, sometimes you've been seeing your own mental health therapist before or leading up to trying to get pregnant. And not everybody has this luxury because they get pregnant by accident or it wasn't planned. But for those who are planning or even thinking about it, start working on yourself months ahead of time, at least three. And the older you are, probably six, because your body's doing different things. Your hormones are doing different things. And especially if your hormones or   menstrual cycle is not regular or short or there's some other type of aberration, whether it's long, short, irregular, have fibroids, endometriosis, PCOS, all those things. you need a lot more, a lot more time ahead of time in order to make sure that you're prepared for pregnancy. So I think really being able to work with a physician or a provider who is not afraid to work with a traditional medicine provider or team, because again,   We're doing a lot of the heavy lifting that they're not gonna do or they can't do or won't do because all they're gonna do is stick to a protocol. Your injections, it has to be on this day, this time, but the preparation for making sure that that goes well starts three to six months ahead of   Michelle (27:14) Yes. Amen. Cause I do, I do get people come in like a week before their transfers and while yes, it's going to help. Anything's going to help. It's still not the same. I wish I had more time, you know, but you know, what, can you do? Okay. It's like the times pass. We're here now. Like, let's just do what we can.   Laurena White (27:22) Yep. Right.   Not. Yes.   Yeah. Yeah, but that's how they've been educated. But that's how they've been educated. Well, acupuncture can work for transfer or retrieval. And so that's what they do. They find any acupuncturist on the corner or in their neighborhood or, you know, sometimes it's the acupuncturist in the facility that they, you know, they happen to be using for their, A or T or their IVF. And that's they do. Even if that person has no   Michelle (27:43) Mm   Yeah.   Laurena White (27:58) direct specialization in gynecology and obstetrics issues associated with balancing the things that may be off because of IVF. And I think a lot of times we forget that IVF is still a synthetic process. Yes, it's getting into a place, but you're being pumped with hormones at a level that are ungodly in terms of what your body produces normally. They are synthetic.   Michelle (28:15) Mm -hmm.   Laurena White (28:24) And so that's when a lot of women start being sad and depressed and bloating and crampy and angry and mood swings and all these things and water retention. And they're like, I'm just trying to get pregnant. And your body turns into a completely different entity that you are not familiar with because you're undergoing a process that is not natural. That is not in, especially in terms of hormone production that you're getting in ways that your body was never designed to experience.   And yes, it is a means to an end for some people, but there also needs to be a way to balance that so that while this aspect is happening, the Western medicine side has its place, but there also needs to be space created for the traditional medicine side that can balance some of those things while you're going forward toward accomplishing that goal of conception and healthy pregnancy.   Michelle (29:15) Yeah, for sure. also having a little, you know, when you were talking about a breather for your body and just really like supporting the liver, supporting the detoxification of those excess hormones. And because then you allow your body to kind of come back to that homeostasis, it's really important to do that. Our bodies are just not machines. I mean, it's important to respect that the process of our bodies and really what they're going through. And I think that   Laurena White (29:21) Yeah.   Yes.   Yep.   Michelle (29:44) That is something that needs to be thought of for sure. And another thing that drives me crazy, we were talking about the I word, is geriatric pregnancy at 35 years old. I see an eye roll. I knew you were going to feel the same way. It's absolutely ridiculous.   Laurena White (29:48) Wait.   Yeah.   Yes.   Again, we have the finite, yes, we have a finite amount of eggs. That's not that we're not gonna, I'm not gonna even begin to argue about that. But first we need to realize that the egg quality, some of those things were influenced by our moms and our grandmas. So when you were born, some of your eggs are, it was your grandma and your mom's fault. Like that's just, you got what they gave you. But then at 35, yes, things do change a little bit, but it's not a cliff. You're not like dropping off a cliff.   Michelle (30:15) Mm -hmm.   Laurena White (30:30) and everything is dried up and the whole geriatric pregnancy nomenclature is like, how are we doing this? How are we doing this to women and why? And why are you scaring them into thinking that at 35, if it's not done, wrap it up? Because we've seen people, especially with acupuncture, they're in their 50s. They're still menstruating. And I think if you're still menstruating, there's an egg in there somewhere. Again, what the quality is, I don't know.   Michelle (30:37) Just that word. It's like ridiculous. Yeah.   Mm -hmm.   Right. Yeah.   Laurena White (30:59) but there's an egg in there somewhere and are you ovulating? Not sure. But if you believe it and you know, we've done your AMH and we're looking at your FSH and hey, then, and so 52 has been my oldest client that has gotten using her own eggs. But yeah, and she had IVF too, but there were, you know, there were her own eggs and everything else, but we worked together because she needed the extra help that IVF was definitely not going to provide. And.   through that process of nurturing her, building up her yin, building up her kidney function, all those things, things that they're not even beginning to talk about in Western medicine. It's like, you need an egg donor. Based on what? Because she's 50? That's not enough. That is not an answer. Your age is just not enough. And egg quality is a thing. Egg count is a thing. All those are definitely aspects that need to be taken into consideration, but everybody's not born the same.   Michelle (31:29) Mm -hmm.   Right. Yeah.   Laurena White (31:54) So there's premature menopause where you're in your 40s or earlier than your 40s and yeah, you have no more eggs and you hit premature menopause. But that's also not always just because there's signs doesn't mean or symptoms doesn't mean that's the actual diagnosis. Said main client, she came in and they told us she was premature ovarian failure.   and she was hitting early menopause and I looked at her I was like, your constitution, even when she came to the office, I like, just don't think so. Yeah, was like, I mean, maybe, but I mean, cause it does exist, but her pulses and everything were vibrant. She was strong. mean, just constitutionally, she did not look that way. And I said, let's give it three months. And in three months, not only was she pregnant, she's gotten pregnant again after that.   Michelle (32:17) Mm   I know you could see it.   Mm -hmm.   Mm I had the same thing. I had similar stories. It's crazy. Yeah.   Laurena White (32:46) And so my thing, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, why give somebody a, you just told someone who's like, at that time she wasn't even early. She was maybe not even 40 yet. And they were like, yeah, you're premature ovarian failure. You're going to need an egg donor, all these things. I'm thinking, it just didn't resonate with me. And again, could have been 100 % wrong. But my thing is you just need to tweak the things that are in balance.   Michelle (33:02) Mm   Laurena White (33:11) And for her to have a baby and again, natural pregnancy, there was no IVF, there was no nothing. And in three months of working together, not only was she pregnant, we continue working together and she's pregnant again. And it's like, so how do you tell someone that? Yeah, you tell somebody that, but that messes with someone's psyche. Someone who's been planning and thinking, and now they think that they have received what I call a reproductive health death sentence.   Michelle (33:16) Mm Yeah.   Mm -hmm. Amazing. I love those stories.   for sure.   Laurena White (33:39) because not only are their dreams not gonna come true, now they have to reroute everything. And my thing is not only, is it not like, we got one. No, you've had two. And now she's like, I don't want another one. if, she's like, I know definitely working with you. If I don't want another one, I need to make sure my appointments are scheduled sporadically because she's like, you will get us pregnant. And so it's just one of those things like that frustrates me. the nomenclature that we use.   Michelle (33:40) Mm -hmm.   That is so funny.   Well, it's the power of suggestion, right? I mean, you're looking to an authority figure and you're getting this diagnosis and you're like, okay, well, I guess that's my, that's what it is. That's my future.   Laurena White (34:06) Yes, yes.   Mm -hmm. Yep.   That's what it is. Yeah. And it's, it's not only disempowering, but it's also setting someone else up to not believe in themselves, to not understand their bodies in a way that dispel that information or go and conjure. Cause if your doctor says it that, Hey, you're in premature ovarian failure. Why wouldn't you believe   And unfortunately it takes someone like me, our team to be like, I don't know. It could be true, but something's not matching up. And I think so often we get to that place at around 35 where doctors are just quick to say, okay, well, you're going to definitely have to have IVF or you're definitely going to have to have this, or you're definitely going to have to have an egg donor because your body won't do X, Y, Z anymore based on what? yes. Your AMH is a little higher, but that means we just have to work a little harder or a little longer.   Michelle (34:42) Right, exactly.   Laurena White (35:10) to counteract those natural processes of life by helping your body remember what it can do. And that does mean making some lifestyle changes. Yeah, because your body still can do it. It's just saying, hey, it's a lot harder now. But also, what are you willing to do? Are you willing to make lifestyle changes? Stop eating some of the things that you've been eating. Stop going some of the places that you've been doing. Start getting some sleep that you haven't been doing or getting. You may need to have...   Michelle (35:17) Ooh, I love that. I love that.   Yes.   Laurena White (35:39) you know, seven hours of sleep instead of trying to survive on four because you need that restoration for your body, for your cells, for your eggs, for your ovaries. So your body can do that work. You may need to eat different types of food, eat differently. And yeah, maybe you might need a massage or you might need something for stress relief or you might need some acupuncture and some herbal blood. You might need some of those things to help your body recalibrate.   So it knows and remembers what it is capable of doing. But staying on that same path, you're right. It might be a dead end, but there's also a way to turn that around. And when we do those things, anything is possible.   Michelle (36:17) just love that sentence that you help your body remember because it's true. Your body knows your body's so smart and intelligent. It was designed to self -heal. That's really at the core of Chinese medicine. Naturopathic medicine says it too. It's really knowing that even Western medicine, they call it homeostasis. We call it yin and yang balance. But ultimately you create that environment where your body comes back to itself.   Laurena White (36:26) Yep.   Yes.   Mm -hmm. Right.   Yes.   Michelle (36:45) And that's the beauty is that we do have resilient bodies and we have that ability. think that that's just remembering and having that hope that just because it's not showing up that way now or expressing itself that way now doesn't mean it's never going to is just making those shifts. think a big hurdle is really changing habits. People love their habits. They love their routines.   Laurena White (36:49) Yes.   Michelle (37:07) Even if it's not the healthiest, you know, and sometimes even the husbands, like, to try to get them to stop drinking as much or whatever, whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah.   Laurena White (37:08) Alright.   Yes. Or smoking or whatever, or bike riding, whatever, sitting in a sauna, you know, all those different things. Yes, they provide a benefit, but they're not providing the benefit that you need right now. And all of us have habits and all of those habits address some need that we have. Otherwise, they wouldn't be habits, the good ones and the bad ones. We all have vices and yeah, something sometimes they're vices that   Michelle (37:25) Yes.   Yes. Yep. Yeah, it's true.   Laurena White (37:40) air -quilt healthy vices, but sometimes they're vices that we know aren't good for us, but it feeds some type of initial need. But when it's time to do this type of work, which is the growing of a baby, the creation of a baby, we've got to make those shifts because now baby is requiring more of us than we require of ourselves. And I think that's the bottom line is that baby's going to get theirs first. And if you're not ready to create space for that baby to have a healthy environment,   Michelle (37:59) Yes.   Laurena White (38:07) maybe that's not your priority. And I think that's a lot of times when things aren't necessarily happening, it's that wake up call like, I need to take the step back. And some of these things that are self -serving now need that energy needs to go toward serving the baby in terms of not as growth and development, not just in utero, but preconception wise. And I think when people make those shifts, that's their first step in motherhood is doing something in service to   unborn baby, even preconception wise. And when they make that shift, it's like, it starts to, this is motherhood. You know, this is that service to something bigger, bigger than me, which is that pregnancy. And not just for that nine months, but before babies even conceived.   Michelle (38:54) Yeah, no doubt. Amazing. mean, I can talk to you for hours. just, I love the fact that you have, yeah, you have such a beautiful perspective and you really look at like every aspect and kind of like the core of a person, spirit wise, mental wise, physical wise, like in all different ways. And I think it's really cool to have the vantage point that you have of   Laurena White (38:58) Of course, I know I love talking to you.   Michelle (39:21) both worlds. I do believe that the two need to work together because there's benefits from every perspective. For people who want to find out more, you have an amazing podcast. So if they want to learn from you or if they might live close to you and can actually see you in person, how can people find   Laurena White (39:24) Absolutely.   Thank you.   Go to our website, larenawhite .com. That's my first and last name. And we do telehealth visits, so you don't even have to be in the DC metro area. We have a network of providers all around the country. So even if it's not us and maybe you're working with us in some virtual component or remote component, and we'll connect you with a provider in your area who does the work that we do, that we believe in, that we trust, and we coordinate care. So it won't necessarily   Michelle (40:06) Love that.   Laurena White (40:07) disjointed, we definitely talk about, you know, all the different aspects that we just talked about here, just so we're all on the same page and, you know, really working together with you. Because for me, it's more important that our clients receive what they need, even if it's not with us. And I'm not too proud to say like, hey, maybe somebody else can do this better or differently. And maybe I'm not everybody's cup of tea, but I do want everyone to get the things that they need.   Again, the podcast is also on our website and I'll make sure that, you know, the link goes in the show notes as well. And yeah, the ability to work with us, I teach, so I always have courses online as well for providers and clients alike. Sometimes providers want to get information because we do have, we address complex women's health. Yes, yeah, and   Michelle (40:53) True. And we do have a lot of providers listening to this podcast, by the way.   Laurena White (40:58) Because we, again, I have my own set of mentors who I feel like they have gotten, you know, I go to, I study, I love what I do. And I feel the only way to get better is continuing to do the thing that I do well better. Because if I can get great results in three months, what if I could get those same results in two and a half? Again, those two weeks mean something. And so really being able to not only open up my network of other providers who,   Michelle (41:12) Yes.   Laurena White (41:25) not necessarily are like me because there are not many, but if I can find an acupuncturist in your city or state who works with, know, Western Mediterranean providers who are open to that partnership, that's gold. That is gold. I find that it's, it's this challenging. Sometimes people don't, we'll work with everybody because I don't have any shame and I definitely have confidence in my own skill set and I will work with anyone.   Michelle (41:40) Yes, it is gold.   Laurena White (41:53) at the behest of what's best for our clients. And a lot of times other providers, because I do use traditional medicine for a lot, they think it's, I guess, threatening their practice or what they're, know, and in the bigger scheme of things, if we're helping our mutual client get their needs met, who cares who gets the credit? The point is, like, it's just, to me, it's one of those wasted energy aspects because   Michelle (42:12) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Totally. Totally.   Laurena White (42:21) We're not working for our own reputations. We're working for the benefit of the client. And if we're working together, we all win. And so that is my, that has been my, it's because it just, I don't know, to me it's all common sense, but I realized the longer I do this, common sense is just not that common. And there, we're still like, know, you know, egos and all the different other ills of the world.   Michelle (42:28) I love that. This is why I love you.   Laurena White (42:45) And that's the one thing I, you know, is just continue to doing the things and the work that I know works. And again, if you go to the website and the email, you'll be able to find us anywhere. And if we can't help you, then we'll know someone who can.   Michelle (42:57) thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your wisdom. And it was really important for me, for the listeners to hear really what you can get from a   care provider and what you should be getting from a healthcare provider. So thank you so much for coming on today.   Laurena White (43:15) And thank you for allowing me to be your guest. I appreciate it. You know, I love talking to you as well.    

I am thrilled to have one of my practitioner certification graduates and fellow acupuncturist, Dr. Melissa Levy. Dr. Levy is a practitioner with a passion for health, wellness, and fertility. Originally from the Philadelphia area, she ventured to Florida to pursue her education at the University of Tampa.   A personal health journey changed the course of Dr. Levy's life. Facing health issues that Western medicine couldn't address, she discovered holistic practitioners who listened and considered the full body as a unit. This holistic perspective helped her understand her body better and manage her hormonal imbalances through acupuncture. This transformative experience inspired her to become a Doctor of Acupuncture and Functional Medicine Practitioner.   Dr. Levy holds numerous certifications, including Certified Functional Medicine Practitioner, Certified Health Coach, and Certified Fertility Coach. As a board-certified diplomate of Oriental Medicine by NCCAOM and a licensed Acupuncture Physician in Florida, she founded the Integrative Wellness Center (IWC) in 2019. Her vision was to create a healing sanctuary for individuals, especially those who have lost hope. Her evidence-based practice model combines patient values, the best research evidence, and her clinical expertise to offer exceptional care. Initially, her onsite clinic in Jacksonville allowed her to help only local patients. Realizing the need to reach more people, she created online programs and coaching services to share her knowledge with individuals in different locations. Dr. Levy's goal is to provide the best comprehensive care to those who need it and are willing to make changes to better their health and lives. She aims to change how healthcare is delivered by providing exceptional, holistic care. Her mission extends beyond treatment; she strives to educate all her patients about the advantages of living a holistic life. Each encounter is an opportunity for her to positively impact her patients' lives, and she approaches this with unwavering dedication and care. Dr. Levy offers in-person appointments at her clinic in Jacksonville and provides virtual functional medicine consultations for Florida residents and functional health coaching for individuals everywhere.    Websites: https://www.healthbymelissa.com https://www.iwcjacksonville.com   Instagram: @dr.melissa_levy     For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Melissa Levy. I'm so excited to have you on.   Melissa Levy (00:04) Yes, I'm so excited. I'm looking forward to this, being able to talk with you again and just dive into what I do and the world of fertility.   Michelle (00:12) Yes, and I'm so I was lucky enough to work with Dr. Melissa Levy and she was one of my students for my fertility practitioner course. I have to say, I just have to say this. Well, she's kind of stands on her own anyway. Yes, she got an extra certification, but she's like just a phenomenal like knows what she's doing type of practitioner and   I mean, you really like went into everything like no stone unturned. I just love your motivation, your passion. Like, and it was it's legit. I just want to say that.   Melissa Levy (00:46) Well, I think we even talked about this, like we're kind of just a lifetime learner. even though, you know, when I saw this course that you had, I was like, well, why not learn a little bit more? You know, I'm always diving into something, learning something new. And it just, the field that we're in, it's just kind of never ending of things you can learn and kind of better your education and further it. So it was great to just learn a little bit more and then the more you learn, the more you're open to and the more people you meet. So it was a great experience. So thank you.   Michelle (01:13) Yeah, and I feel like you were already well versed. I mean, you stand alone on your own. So it was just awesome working with you. But I would love for you to share your background and how you got into wanting to do this   Melissa Levy (01:26) Yeah, of course. I just remember being, I think most people have a similar story is like growing up, you're not really taught anything about your cycle. I had issues with my cycle. It's probably about 16 and I really didn't get my cycle yet. So I just remember going to the OB and they're saying, oh, all right, well, here's birth control. And I'm thinking in my head, great, now I'll be normal and...   you know, have a normal cycle. And so I didn't know any better and most people don't. So from the age of 16, I was on birth control to help regulate my cycle. And then also having ovarian cyst, I had surgery, I believe my junior year of high school for like a big ovarian cyst, which they thought was endometriosis. So, you know, I'm 16 and they're telling me, hey, you've endometriosis without even looking, you know, looking at anything, just throwing names out there, which I think is something that happens a   You know, people just kind of throw diagnoses and needs out there without really having an idea of exactly that's what it was. So being young thinking, I've endometriosis. What is this? You know, looking it up, being scared, and then getting surgery and them telling me it was a dermoid cyst, which is completely different, which was still kind of weird. But so that was just my first experience. And I just never had normal cycles really ever. And then going.   Michelle (02:32) Wow. Yeah.   Melissa Levy (02:41) into my college years. I was always an athlete, so I was personal trainer. I was working a lot, really stressed, a lot of stress on my body. So I just didn't feel good. I ended up getting Bell's palsy, which would not get better. And I was just on antibiotics and steroids for about a year or two years, just seeing tons of different doctors.   Michelle (03:00) wow.   Melissa Levy (03:03) not getting any answers. I think the thing that really frustrated me the most was going to a neurologist that I drove two hours to see and saw him for maybe five seconds. So it was just taking medicine, being on birth control, being on prednisone for that long, you feel terrible. So my gut health, my skin health, acne, hormones, nothing felt right. And I look back at pictures of myself from those years and   Michelle (03:14) Wow.   Melissa Levy (03:29) thinking I was healthy because I was a trainer and constantly working out and I had a lot of stress in my life as well. Looking back, I just looked unhealthy. I looked puffy and just all the medicines that they had me on, I didn't know any better until I got into the world of more holistic healing and learning more, being in that fitness and health. I was a personal trainer, group fitness instructor, yoga. I always wanted to help people and I think...   Michelle (03:42) with her.   Melissa Levy (03:54) this experience really helped me want to understand the body more and I know there's a better way of healing. So I was introduced into more like holistic health and acupuncture. And then from there, I just kind of fell in love with the medicine. when I started acupuncture school, as a student, you're able to get, you know, like $5 treatment. So we were getting treatment constantly and I was actually able to get off birth control and regulate my cycle, which took a little bit going off birth control. skin was...   a hot mess, probably because being on the antibiotics for so long, not even thinking twice about it. But I think within like the three months of just Chinese medicine, herbs, and getting acupuncture pretty consistently, I was finally able to get at least a regular cycle and, you know, just been working on it and haven't really had too many hormonal issues, you know, since then, but it's just a lot. You learn a lot about yourself, I think. And in a way, it's a good thing because then it brought me to where I'm   and I can have a lot of empathy for my patients and saying, hey, you I've been there, you know, I had the horrible migraines, I had the horrible skin and all things I just were told were normal. And last thing I'll say, I'll never forget. I remember I went, I was in acupuncture school. So I was learning a lot, as you know, you start learning things, you know, things that, you know, maybe aren't right that doctors sometimes may tell you. I remember I went to the OB and I was like, hey, you know,   I was told I had, I had an ultrasound done and the tech told me, Hey, it looks like you PCOS. Once again, just throwing things out there. And I was like, so I brought it up to my doctor. was like, I had an ultrasound. said it looked like I had something called PCOS. She's like, no, you don't. You just probably have endometriosis. take some Advil and birth control. And that was my conversation. I, I just left and I was like, what in the world? was because I knew better at that point. And I just left.   Michelle (05:21) Wow.   my god. Wow.   Yeah, so you could recognize, yeah, that wasn't cool.   Melissa Levy (05:43) Never going back to this doctor again and not saying everyone's like that. But I think for women, just, we're so, we're just, we're told that, you know, that's just normal, you know, having pain from menstrual cycles, having hormonal balances, all that stuff's normal. you know, Advil and birth control are the solutions to everything. the more I learn and especially getting into functional medicine now, you know, having the acupuncture practice for several years,   I've got more into functional medicine and I think that really connects the dots a lot for me too. I'm getting in hormone health and know, detoxification. So there's so much that as women that we're not even taught about our cycles or so I think just spreading the awareness, I think more women are wanting to know more and   Michelle (06:28) Yeah, for sure. I know one of the things that really struck me when I was going to school. Of course, I had a very similar situation as you or story where I was given birth control pills as well. I think our stories are actually very common. A lot of people go through this. Yeah, I was so many. I've had so many guests, just guests tell me this, but then I've also had patients come to me and say that they've been put on birth control for this, that and the other.   Melissa Levy (06:42) Really?   Michelle (06:54) that had nothing to do with like their actual like root cause. Yeah, it's crazy. It really is crazy. being told, you know, or believing that certain menstrual cycle irregularities are normal. I think that that was the biggest aha for me when I was going to school is that certain things that we thought were normal, like having diarrhea if you have your period or constipation before or breast tenderness   Melissa Levy (06:59) That's crazy.   Mm -hmm.   Michelle (07:20) PMS or even cramps that it's actually common. So we think it's normal, but it's actually not normal. So, so what are some of the things that kind of like you saw that you felt like, my God, like I can actually resolve   Melissa Levy (07:26) Yeah.   Yeah, I think a lot of it was just the mood stuff too. Like I would turn into like just a different person. Like along with that, just hormonal stuff like PMS, just all that stuff that we're told is just normal. I just like dread it heading my cycle all the time. And so I think it gets to a point where it might not always be perfect. know, things happen, whether it's stress induced, you know, if you're having a   month, you know, maybe some of those symptoms pop up and it's a way of your body telling you like, Hey, maybe, you know, check in with yourself, check in with your hormones. What's going on this month that some of these symptoms came back. And I think what you said is definitely true is I'll even do my interviews with my patients and I'll say, so how's your menstrual cycle? it's like perfect. It's normal. Okay, good. So what's that like? Tell me like, do you have PMS? yeah. Yeah. I always have PMS. had   My breasts hurt so bad. I get really moody the first day and cry. I'm like, you know, so that we're told that that's still normal, which is still a thing, but yeah.   Michelle (08:24) Mm   Yeah, it becomes almost like a background thing that's just like, oh, that's just that. Like it's normal, it's okay. And I think another thing too is just having that something I frequently see, oh, I have a perfect 28 day cycle like textbook, so everything's perfect. But then you start to really dig in like, when are you ovulating? You know, is it early or you know, nobody really knows because they'll either just do LH or not really look into   Melissa Levy (08:35) Yeah.   Michelle (08:59) if it's confirmed ovulation, because you could still get a bleed. So there's a lot of those little intricacies that you often don't find in mainstream medicine.   Melissa Levy (09:08) And I think that's another thing is like we're never taught to really understand our cycle. So when I am working with fertility patients, I'm saying, oh, are you ovulating every month? Yeah, on day 14. Okay. Are you checking your basal body temperature to see that rise in progesterone? No, no. Like I just, on day 14, I just ovulate. know, so it's, some people don't even understand that there are signs that our body tells   And it's not just day 14 that we ovulate, which could really impact fertility because then we could be missing our fertility windows. So there's just that lack of education and how we need to understand. we're never taught, I mean, no one ever taught me that. I had no idea until I got into this medicine that, day 14, or what is cervical mucus? Am I having that? And sometimes I ask women, do you have cervical mucus? Oh, I have no idea.   One of those things that were never, I mean, no one's taught me. And I just think there's not enough time, obviously, in appointments and with your regular OB. So I think that definitely impacts fertility for sure.   Michelle (10:05) Yeah, I often find too that people don't even really know much about their blood because they use tampons the whole time. That's another thing that I often talk about because it is, first of all, I don't love shoving anything up there. When your body's trying to release, you're basically putting a stopper in a sense. I mean, of course it doesn't stop, it absorbs, but still it's not quite the same.   Melissa Levy (10:12) Mmm, yeah.   Yeah.   Michelle (10:29) as really letting it out and letting it flow and letting that gravitational pull release, whatever, not stagnate it. But if you have to, if you must, I'm not saying everything's 100%, but seeing what the blood looks like actually can tell you so much about your period or tell your acupuncture so much, but even you, there's a lot of information out   Melissa Levy (10:36) Yeah, of course.   Of course, mean, once again, lot of my patients, unless they've been coming to me for a while, they know to look. Otherwise they're like, you said, I have no idea. I use a tampon. Are there clots? I have no idea. know, it's those things that, know, until, unless you've had acupuncture, you're probably not looking for it. And it tells us.   a lot. Our body gives us these signs and symptoms, the tongue, the pulse, the color of the nails, the skin. So all those things give us lot of information, especially the blood. What does it look like? How many days are you bleeding? Are you clots? it spotting? Are you bleeding a lot? Little, is it scanty? So definitely that's a great point. And same thing with the tampons. It's a really good point about stopping and not stagnating the blood.   Michelle (11:34) Yeah. And I think that because our life is so busy, it's like, you know, it's almost like too busy and really kind of, it's important to allow yourself that rest if you can, with the menstrual cycle. I think that we don't really get that accommodation often just in the world. But yeah, you know, so you see a lot of those kinds of things just from asking people questions and how did you decide you wanted to work with fertility? What was your   your initial pull.   Melissa Levy (11:59) Yeah, so I was.   pretty much a general seeing a little bit of everything. And I still do, but I think women's health is something that I've always had that love for just because there is such a lack of it and such a need for it. And then I think once I had my son, it kind of gave me that extra like fuel and that like just to learn more and more to, because it's such an amazing love to be a mom. And I want to be able just to give that to as many people and help as many women as I can. So I think that is the thing that really kind   pushed it to kind of dive all into fertility. What all can I learn? How many people can I help? And what is going on? And why is our fertility issues seem like it's kind of becoming more common. And it's one of those things where like cycle issues are an issue or they're prevalent. But now it seems like same thing fertility. It's just like, yeah, I'm having trouble getting pregnant. So it seems one of those things that's just becoming a normal common thing, which I think is sad.   Michelle (12:51) Yeah, yeah, for sure. What are some of the things that you see just clinically? Like what are some of the things that you notice that might be contributing to people having trouble conceiving?   Melissa Levy (13:03) Yeah, definitely. So I see stress, definitely, as you probably know. know, we've been, acupuncture has been saying for thousands and thousands of years, the connection between our uterus and our shin, which is our mind. So most women, we have a lot of responsibility.   Michelle (13:06) Mm -hmm.   Right, and just if people don't know, the heart houses the mind. So the heart houses Shen, which is kind of like the spiritual aspect. Well, spirit, mind, combined.   Melissa Levy (13:26) Mm -hmm. Yeah, and it's so we've known this for about 3 ,500 years or more. But I think nowadays women are living in a more stressful environment. There's so many responsibilities that we have. Some women have multiple kids already and they're juggling work and family and.   just the pressure. So there's definitely a lot more stress. And if your body's in that fight or flight, you know, it's not going to prioritize, you know, reproduction. If your body thinks, my gosh, I'm in immediate danger. Your body's not like, okay, well it's great time to get pregnant. So I think definitely stress is something I see. I see gut health definitely. you know, so many things come down to our gut and they say, you know, they talk about, you know, our   Michelle (13:51) Yes.   I want to talk about that. That's a good, yeah, it's important.   Melissa Levy (14:10) hormones or our body kind of being like that bathtub analogy where, you know, our gut is kind of like that sewer line kind of taking everything out. And if things are clogged up and backed up due to underlying gut infections, which I see very common and, you know, from a Chinese medicine perspective, we look at that as the dampness, the spleen. So the other thing I find so cool and interesting is, you know, Chinese medicine has been talking about all this stuff for 3500 years. And then when you learn like more of the conventional and   functional medicine, it's the same stuff, you know, just in different terminology. So gut health is so important for fertility. And then from a Chinese medicine perspective, we talk about the spleen and the stomach, and it has a huge relationship to our fertility and our overall health. So that's deficient. And we've known that forever. So it's one of those things where I think gut health is so common and such a big topic right now. But it's not a new thing. I think it's something that we've known for so long,   Michelle (14:53) Yeah.   Melissa Levy (15:04) Now we're recognizing, wow, our gut is really, important. And so I think that's huge.   Michelle (15:10) for sure. I will say too, like the gut mind connection, also that's spleen and stomach, they govern thoughts. So literally our thoughts can impact our digestion. Like if there are stressful thoughts, overwork, overworrying, that can impact our digestion. But now they're seeing it's fascinating because I've been researching it, the enteric system, which is your gut nervous system. And then the CNS, which is essential nervous system, which is connected to the brain.   Melissa Levy (15:17) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Michelle (15:36) And so how your thoughts can impact your via the vagus nerve, like there's this back and forth bi -directional communication. And it's fascinating how like Chinese medicine has been saying this forever. And now we're like literally seeing that they're seeing that people with certain types of mental disorders have a different gut microbiome than...   Melissa Levy (15:49) I know.   Mm -hmm, so interesting.   Michelle (16:00) It's fascinating. And then also they're saying that people that meditate for a long time have a different gut microbiome that's more diverse and more rich, enriched.   Melissa Levy (16:10) Yeah, I mean, our mind is, I you talk about that so much, and it's like, how much can we stress it? It plays a big role in, it's sometimes not something that's easy to overcome, and it takes sometimes time to maybe make some lifestyle changes or be able to do things that, sometimes you obviously can't change your environment around you if it's situational, but do things for your body that can kind of offset some of that stress. And then also, working with the gut.   Michelle (16:34) Yes.   Melissa Levy (16:36) going to be really important. it's kind of like that vicious cycle of, if your guts impaired, then it can affect your mind and your mind is going to affect your gut. So it kind of just rotates through. So, you know, when we talk about holistic medicine, we're talking about not just singling in on one thing. We're looking at everything. We're looking at the gut, right? Because if you just want one, you know, you're forgetting about everything else and everything is so connected. So you have to look at everything.   Michelle (16:54) Yes. Yeah.   It is, without a doubt. It's a, cause you were just mentioning two like major things, which is stress and then the gut. But those things are interconnected. They're like pieces of a puzzle. And that's, that's really the beauty I think of Chinese medicine is that, and also functional medicine is that it looks at things holistically, like in all the different parts. And I love that you also do functional medicine and testing. And because I think it's really important to really look beneath the hood.   and see what does your gut microbiome look like. So what could people get from like say a gut testing?   Melissa Levy (17:37) so much. So your whole gut microbiome, can tell us so much. So what I see a lot is I'll have a patient come in and they'll say, hey, you know, I'm not feeling good. My hormones are a mess. I can't get pregnant, but my blood work, everything looks fine. So then, you know, I look at it. Yes, everything looks fine. Yeah. And then as an acupuncturist, we take two seconds. We look at their tongue and pulse and we can say, whoa, there's definitely a lot going on. And   Michelle (17:53) So then they get the unexplained infertility diagnosis, right? And then they come to you.   Melissa Levy (18:04) I like to order things like the GI map, which definitely is my favorite test by far, because it doesn't just say yes or no, you have something. It will give you the value. So it's qualitative PCR. So it looks at all the gut microbiomes, looks at parasites. It looks at H. pylori, which is so common. Yeah, so our gut microbiome. And it's not even like looking at...   know, what can we do to fix it? So sometimes I've had patients, looks at beta glucuronidase. It looks at calprotectin levels. it looks at so many different things to see if there's any gut inflammation in the body. is there dysbiosis? Is there maldigestion? Maybe you're not absorbing all the nutrients. So there's definitely a lot. And, if people even have cycle issues, I've had patients who have irregular cycles and we don't do anything else, but do a GI map and heal the gut. And their cycle regulates by itself on that. So there's so   Michelle (18:53) That's amazing.   Melissa Levy (18:54) much if you have someone that can actually read the GI map and knows how to understand it and what the patterns are, it is so beneficial. So I really love the GI map. It could tell us so much about the gut.   Michelle (19:04) Amazing. And so what are some of the things or implementations and just to kind of give us examples of different conditions. And clearly this is not a one size fits all, which is why you have to test. Cause you could see like what's going on specific to the patient.   Melissa Levy (19:10) Yeah.   Of course. Yeah, exactly.   Yeah, so I mean, I would say some things that I see a lot on the, just on the GI map, for example, like I'll see H. pylori a lot. And then with H. pylori, you'll see things like strep and staph infections as well in the gut. And what that does a lot of times is cause hypochlorhydrial low stomach acid, which is sometimes called things like parasites. You're not killing off things if you have low stomach acid and then maldigestion issues. So just doing things like mindful eating. So taking time and chewing your food, digestive.   enzymes are really important. And then I love antimicrobials like olive leaf and oregano. They're really great. Olive leaf is antioxidant. It's antimicrobial, antiparasitic, anti -yeast. So that's something I use a lot with my patients that have any type of dysbiosis or overgrowth or opportunistic growth in their GI map.   Michelle (20:08) Have you heard of Mastic for... Yeah. Rachael.   Melissa Levy (20:10) Yeah, mastectomy. Yes, that's really common. And usually if you have, it depends like what bacteria or overgrowth you have. For example, like H. pylori typically means at least like three types of urge to kill because it is very stubborn. So usually using mastectomy, leaf, oregano, black cumin seed oil is amazing. And that is good against H. pylori. It also helps regulate blood sugar, which is another huge thing I see with fertility issues is blood sugar regulation.   That's another thing that can affect our cortisol levels and our hormones. So I put a lot of people on black cumin seed oil as well, and that's antioxidant as well. So those are things that I definitely recommend for things, but it really depends on what bacteria, what overgrowth, what patterns you're showing. But just common things I see is like hypochloridia, low stomach acid. I see a lot of like dysbiosis, leaky gut, and then really just taking the measured measures and really just putting it into phases   what can we do, remove the gut infections and then build up that gut wall and build up that diverse microbiome again. So it takes time. It's not something that happens overnight. But then I also think looking at why, why do we have this in the first place? Why do we have these gut infections? Why is it stress? it our diet, environmental things as well?   Michelle (21:19) Right, right.   Yeah, you think of like Sleen Yang deficiency because the fire, know, that digestive fire really is in Ayurvedic medicine, Agni, fire is really what kind of kills off all of those opportunistic bacteria and infections. But if we don't have that digestive fire, all the things that we learn about don't eat ice cream, don't have ice cold drinks, because what you're doing is you're actually diluting that fire.   Melissa Levy (21:28) Yeah, exactly.   Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Yeah, no, I love that. never thought about that as like the that looking at that as like the stomach acid and that's such a great, great way to look at that. And that's the thing I always come back and find these awesome like relationships between Chinese medicine and conventional or functional medicine. It's like, it's all the same stuff. We just called it different things in a sense. it's, and now that we've all this research that shows and validates everything we've known for a long time. So I do like, you know, combining the two of those in such a great.   Michelle (22:06) Yeah. Yes.   Melissa Levy (22:17) great practice to be able to do   Michelle (22:18) Yeah, no doubt. when it comes to certain conditions, have you had people where you suggested, okay, you you'd need antibiotics for this because it is kind of like really strong where they sometimes they need a stronger one. And then with that kind of help to navigate and kind of work it out with probiotics.   Melissa Levy (22:38) Yeah, so I haven't had to really refer out for any antibiotics because most herbs and supplements usually are. There's research that shows that they are pretty good at eradicating most things and they have multiple functions and a more broad spectrum. But then, yeah, then adding in the probiotics and different types like espilarity is really good at helping with H. pylori and then doing, that's another thing I love about the GI map is it'll let you know like what's overgrown, what's deficient. So let's say you're a   Michelle (22:49) Mm -hmm.   Mm   Melissa Levy (23:04) huge overgrowth of lactobacillus because of maybe hypochondria, right? You're not breaking down the food, so then it starts fermenting and you get that overgrowth patterns, which we see a lot. Then you probably might not want to take lactobacillus probiotic. You probably want to do something a little bit more diverse.   Michelle (23:22) Right, or maybe a spore -based, right? A spore -based.   Melissa Levy (23:24) Yeah, or like a school -based probiotic, which are getting more popular now. But then another thing I see a lot too, which I've been seeing a lot more recently is there's something called acromantia. And I see a lot of people that have none detected at all in their gut. And that's a really good thing. And that helps with our gut mucosal lining. And also they show that people have low acromantia, have more things like insulin resistance and obesity. And that's something I keep seeing a lot is there's...   Michelle (23:38) wow.   Wow.   Melissa Levy (23:52) like zero detected in the gut.   Michelle (23:53) Wow, that's so interesting. You know, I have learned a lot that some of the ingredients that we see in processed foods actually shift the gut microbiome dramatically. And I wonder, I mean, if it's like that or toxins that we're exposed to, I mean, there are things that are really literally like we don't even realize have a role or play a role in our   Melissa Levy (24:04) Yeah, I believe it.   Yeah. And I think another thing is like we, that I see a lot too, is we get into like routines of food and we'll eat the same food over and over again. And I remember like Chinese medicine school, they talk about that. They say your body doesn't want to eat the same thing over and over again, like mix it up. Don't eat, you know, chicken and broccoli for every, you know, every lunch the whole week, because your body wants that diversity. And now we see that with the gut microbiome is like the more diverse you eat, the more different foods you're eating, the more diverse your gut microbiome. You don't want to keep eating.   Michelle (24:34) Yeah, it's   Melissa Levy (24:44) the same seven foods all week long, you and I know some people kind of get into that routine of things is that's all they eat.   Michelle (24:48) Yes.   Right, and they talk about eating for seasons too, because during that season, whatever that weather or the climate, your body's reacting and what will grow around you, the food that grows typically is there to balance that   Melissa Levy (24:54) yeah.   Mm -hmm. Yeah, like the seasons and that's something I mean, I think a lot of people don't do as well as eating up the seasons and it's one of the things we don't think about.   Michelle (25:06) fascinating.   you don't think about it because you don't even know because everything gets shipped from everywhere. So you're like, I don't know what's growing now, like here, you know, and I think that that that's like another thing that that and also the endocrine disruptors, all these things that you have to do a little more homework for, but it's not as intimidating as it originally sounds. It seems a lot worse. This is actually why I will say worth hiring a fertility coach.   because you have a lot of that extra time, like all of that is done for you. And, you know, that's the benefit.   Melissa Levy (25:44) Yeah, for sure. And I also think, like everything's so individualized too. Like what might be good for one person, you know, isn't the main focus that someone else needs. There's so much and it can definitely be overwhelming. Like when you start to think about it, like detoxification and basal body temperature and ovulation, the food, it's like, sometimes that stresses people out and it's like, we don't want this to be stressful. And I also have had patients that'd be like,   Michelle (26:00) Yeah. Yeah.   Melissa Levy (26:07) you know, they're like, well, this person get pregnant and they're not eating, you know, super, super healthy, but everyone's bodies are different. You know, we have epigenetics and different stress and everyone's bodies can handle things differently and like that toxic load. And so it's hard to compare yourself to someone else, which is never a good thing to   Michelle (26:14) Right. Yeah.   It's true.   no, absolutely. somebody might be less tolerant for one thing, but more tolerant for another. And that might be completely opposite from the next person. So you just never know. You really need to like honor your own like body's personality type, I like to kind of say, because it has its own signature, its own personality. Like everything is unique, you know, even though we have the same makeup, you know, we all have like the same organs   Melissa Levy (26:34) Yeah, exactly.   Yeah.   Exactly.   Michelle (26:53) of but each person responds differently really to food, environment. I love the saying, one man's   is another man's poison, it's could be something incredibly healthy, but one person could be allergic to it and have a horrible reaction to   Melissa Levy (27:02) yeah.   Yeah, exactly. even going, I always go back to Chinese medicine, but no, it's like food therapy and you know, I have patients come in and they're like, I look at their tongue and pulse and I'm like, well, you shouldn't be eating these foods. They're like, yeah, but they're so healthy, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, they are healthy foods, but not healthy for you at this time of what you have going on in your body. If you've got a heat and inflammation and you're eating spicy, hot, warming foods, you're going to feel a little worse, right? Versus someone who's maybe a little bit more deficient.   Michelle (27:35) bright.   Melissa Levy (27:37) and really needs more of that warming food. it always comes down to individuality, whereas everything similar is yes, we want to make sure we have a good healthy gut and blood flow and mind, but everyone's situation is going to be a little   Michelle (27:50) totally. Like it makes me think of like the somebody who's really thin and like super cold all the time, but all they want to eat is raw foods and salads and like juice. You know, all of that has such a cold nature. You're just exacerbating like the symptoms and making it worse.   Melissa Levy (28:06) yeah. Yeah. It's not as people don't want to hear that. I'm like, well, stop juicing. And I'm like, well, it's so wealthy. going eat a little bit more soups in it. And it's not like you can ever do it, but it's all about balance. And I think, you know, things always come back to balance. And we live in a world now where everything's such an extreme, we're either completely vegan or completely keto or completely, you know, one thing and it's, we're working out so hard and won't do anything or we're not working out at all. So it's how can you find that balance   Michelle (28:17) Yes.   Right, yeah.   Melissa Levy (28:34) eating a whole diet and maybe doing more yin or calm or exercises during certain part of the cycle and then doing more intense if you want. everything comes back to balance, which is something I think is hard.   Michelle (28:47) Yeah, no doubt. But it's an art. then once you figure it out, because I think that we're primed for it, we're designed for balance, our bodies know, and our bodies communicate with us when things are out of balance. If we're too hot to want to cool down and vice versa. So it knows what to do. It's always communicating. Sometimes we want to ignore that communication. Over time, we stop hearing it, but it's kind   Melissa Levy (29:03) We have.   Michelle (29:11) coming back to it is a lot easier than I think a lot of people think because we're primed for it. We're designed to be connected to that. So I know that you work with a lot of people online. So you're able to basically have consultations with people and do testing of all kinds, like different functional testing based on that either customize, but also that you have a program for people who may not commit to like   Melissa Levy (29:35) yeah.   Michelle (29:37) a one -to -one, but they can also just take your course as   Melissa Levy (29:41) Yeah, of course. So, yeah, so I wanted to try to make a course that was like great for like good for anyone, right? So it's easy to understand, but it kind of covers a little bit of everything. A lot of education, like I said, a lot of it is sometimes women don't understand their cycles or even know when they're ovulating. So there's modules that talk about cycle education. How can we, you know, increase our sperm or egg qualities to talk about the man and the woman talking   functional tests. So if you're like, hey, I want to get some testing, but I don't want to work with someone or I don't know anyone or my doctor won't run these, you can go online to our Rupa store and just put in your own order. You know, I always recommend obviously going over with it with a doctor, but I give you the option, the option of like functional ranges and the standard ranges, which are going to be different. Functional ranges are like optimal where we want you to really be. And we talk about yoga, mindfulness.   supplements. So we talk about a lot in the program. It's self -paced, which is so nice. So had people say, I love it because I can go back and listen to it over and over and over again. And so it was a really fun to make and I love being able to provide that information to people.   Michelle (30:50) Awesome. And I actually got to see behind the scenes, look at it and it is really, really very thorough. It has a lot of information, really, really well done. I have to say, I really admire you as a practitioner. think you are amazing at your craft, like truly. Really so honored to have been able to work with you and like get to know you, but you really are amazing at what you do. I think that part of it   Melissa Levy (30:58) Thank you.   Michelle (31:15) just being really passionate, but also having that drive to keep learning and learning and learning. And I think that that's what keeps us going as practitioners.   Melissa Levy (31:23) Yeah, definitely. thank you. So sweet. Yeah. We love what you do. You just want to keep learning and it's fun.   Michelle (31:30) It is fun, right? Well, that's what you want to find. You want to find a coach or has fun doing what they're doing because that's that's ultimately it's a good sign that they love what they do and they're good at it. So, Melissa, such a pleasure having you. If people want to find you, how can they find you?   Melissa Levy (31:37) Yeah.   Yeah, of   Yes, thank   So I actually have a clinic in Jacksonville. Then I also work online with people with Health by Melissa .com or Integrative Wellness Center of Jacksonville .com. do virtual and in -person visits.   Michelle (32:01) Awesome. Melissa, thank you so much for coming on. was such a pleasure talking to   Melissa Levy (32:04) Yes, thank you. Thank you.     

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome Dr. Allison Snowden.   Dr. Allison Snowden is a renowned healer, coach, medical intuitive, and Theta® Healing Expert with over 15 years of experience serving thousands of clients and students from around the world. She offers highly sought-after services including in-person and virtual healing sessions, group sessions, and retreats. Dr. Snowden also trains other healers and medical professionals through her signature programs and courses within the Awakening Institute.   She holds a Doctorate of Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine from the Pacific College of Health & Sciences in San Diego, CA, and has advanced training through the Theta® Healing Institute. Dr. Snowden continues her professional development through regularly attending courses, workshops, and seminars. Her diverse, multi-disciplinary experiences in healing, yoga, integrative medicine, traditional medicine, and Theta® Healing enable her to help patients prevent and recover from trauma-related damage by identifying and releasing the root causes of illness and challenges.   Episode Takeaways: Trauma can have long-lasting effects on the body and mind, and it is important to address and heal it. Reconnecting with our bodies and listening to their messages is essential for healing and well-being. Theta Healing is a powerful technique that combines belief system work and trauma healing. Healing trauma and shifting belief systems can lead to embodiment, empowerment, and a more fulfilling life. Societal beliefs and conditioning can have a significant impact on women's bodies and hormones. Understanding one's own trauma history is crucial for women's health and fertility. The nervous system plays a role in storing information and can affect overall well-being. Tapping into divine wisdom and living in one's truth can lead to healing and empowerment.   Website: https://drsnowden.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drallisonsnowden/     For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Check out Michelle's latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Snowden. So nice to meet you. And as I'm sitting here, I see you. Not everybody's going to be seeing this because it's a podcast, but I see a beautiful flower of life behind Dr. Snowden. And we both are like really obsessed with that symbol. So we'll definitely talk about that. But before we get started, I would love for you to introduce yourself.   Dr. Allison Snowden (00:02) Hi.   Michelle (00:28) Give us your background, how you got inspired to do the work that you do today.   Dr. Allison Snowden (00:34) Great, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me on here. My name's Dr. Allison Snowden. I'll just go with the formal and then I'll get into the real juicy stuff, right? I have my doctorate and master's in Chinese integrative medicine. I also did massage therapy for about 10 years as well.   and also did a lot of energy work training, Reiki, all of the ones. Like I think my whole 20s and 30s, I was just doing extra seminars. So I definitely am an education junkie because, know, in my, just in my value system, really what we take out of this world is experiences, knowledge, and like our consciousness.   And so I really value investing in my education, but then also just in really upleveling my consciousness. And my journey as a healer, think, I feel like I was born, I was born into a healing family. I was born, my mom's a nurse, my dad's a physician. So I feel like it's just a part of my blood and my   I feel like my first initiation in that was my sister had childhood cancer when I was six. And so she was really sick for a year. And I think that's just when that part of me was activated of like, how can I help her? What is going on? And also just really just wanting to understand.   why the human body isn't working, what is going on. So I think that was the first initiation. And I also, it was very hard for me because I was a very empathetic, very sensitive child, very shy. People that I meet now, you my 40s, they're like, you're shy. And I was like, yeah, I worked really hard on it. And so it was really...   Just seeing her go through chemo, she survived. And then for about 10 years, she would just get sick. And so they didn't know she had an autoimmune deficiency at that point. But I just saw her getting sick, missing school. She had to be on IV antibiotics. And I was just like, why? This just seems like it's not getting anywhere. Like it's just the cyclical thing.   I also was mortified at how people treated her sometimes. I'm very mortified on how people treat chronic pain patients and just people in general sometimes. I mean, let's just be honest, like the lack of sometimes kindness and compassion just for people that are going through something, just for the normal person sometimes isn't there. And that like, I saw, I witnessed that as an observer.   you know, going to get my sister's homework and my sister always looked beautiful, even though she had cancer or she had, you know, like, you know, high mono levels or, and so like a lot of people just didn't have like a scarcity of compassion. So that was very, that, that was very impressionable on me at that age. It actually really mortified me. because I never thought that there was like   there's always endless compassion. is, you know, how does it hurt someone to give someone compassion? So at a young age, I didn't really understand that. And then I just saw a lot of death. And so I was like, in this kind of, you know, I grew up in like, you know, upper middle class, you know, society where it looked like our life was, you know, picture perfect. And it was, I had a lot of love in my family,   You know, my sister was continuously sick. They didn't know. And then everyone who she went through chemo with was just dropping dead. And so there was just a lot of death. So I started to pray to God. was like, I want to understand what the hell life is about. Cause I see, you know, it's, it's something to see when you see your sister who's getting a spinal tap done and they didn't, you know, use any anesthesia.   Michelle (04:25) wow.   Dr. Allison Snowden (04:42) and you see how all of this stuff, it's just like micro traumas. You see this and you're like, what is going on? So I just prayed and my cousin died around when I was 14, just in an accident like that. So it was just kind of like all these things. And I think I just had an existential crisis and I was just praying very hard. I didn't know about manifestation back then.   I didn't know any of those principles, but I just was like, God, show me what life is about. God, what happens when you die? I need to know what like I just had this overwhelming need to understand. So a year and a half later, sister is yet again in the hospital and they just find out that she has an autoimmune disease that was associated with her.   cancer, was Burkett's lymphoma and it was associated with a CD4 immune disease. And so they were like, do not go on spring break. My parents had already paid for it. I already had a friend coming. So we went and I'm not going to get into like the details of that, but I had a near near death experience. I was assaulted and then run over by a motor vehicle that was going about 60 miles per hour.   Michelle (06:00) my God. Wow.   Dr. Allison Snowden (06:01) So I had a near -death experience. I, you know, shot out, like, if anyone's listening to this, I know it's not a death podcast, but I   Michelle (06:11) No, no, talk about it because I actually find this really interesting and I think we can learn a   Dr. Allison Snowden (06:16) The, I, cause my cousin died of a violent, you know, pretty catastrophic motor vehicle accident. And I always worried that he was in pain and he died alone. And like, I just like created this drama in my head, like how horrible it was for him. And I'm just here to say that that doesn't happen. It's very quick. I didn't feel a thing. And,   I went up into this unconditional love of just pure bliss, love, all knowing, homelessness. And I was, I always say to people, that was the best vacation I've ever taken, you know, like literally just unconditional love. It's beyond time and space. and I felt like I was just restored and we remembered a lot of things when I was up there. but it was part of my path, I think to,   be a healer and really to understand trauma and also how to heal it and also especially with women as well. And so I had all of these different downloads up there and I decided to go back and when I was almost, and when you decide it's like faster than light, know, it just is like you're in your body.   Michelle (07:14) Yeah.   Dr. Allison Snowden (07:29) I was like, as I was going in, that voice of the divine was like, bring this energy down to earth. And I was like, what? I mean, I would be sitting in the hospital and like, am I supposed, like, can you like translate that for me? Like, can you like give me a to -do list? Like, what do you mean? Right? So, you know, I come back.   There is a whole drama of getting me back home. I had to have emergency surgery and then I was in the hospital, in and out of the hospital for about three years. And then I had like more years of just, you know, just nutrient deficiencies that no one found because I was not going to a functional medicine doctor or someone who really took time. had a thyroid condition, no one diagnosed. I just,   The lack of care in the aftermath of that really made me suffer. And it's not that anyone had any bad intentions. It's just like in our medical system, it's like once the bones are healed, which took three and a half years, which was insane. So many orthopedic surgeries, because my bones wouldn't heal, because they were so badly broken. Like once they were healed, they're like, you're good. And I'm   Michelle (08:32) It's the system.   Dr. Allison Snowden (08:48) well, what happened to my last three years of my life? And then, I felt like that's when all the emotional stuff came up because before I was just like, so focused on getting, you know, you know, let's heal this leg, the arm, the, know, like all of this stuff, learning how to walk again, how many times, you know? And so then it was like, Whoa, just what happened. And so, and that's when like a lot of, you know,   I mean, depression, PTSD, all of that stuff. you know, like, I think, like, the psychiatrists said, they're like, you know, I was crying. And I felt like I was grieving and they're like, more than three weeks. well, you're depressed, all this stuff. you know, I think it's there's a there's a whole conversation that can be had around the medicalization of just life events and   you know, how that intersects and how we can support, but how does that repress it? Because I really feel like when our body, when we grieve, when we cry, there's such an, it's, you know, like in Chinese medicine, it's like the tears are the, like, the liquid of the liver. It's like there's change coming. So I really feel like, yeah, that could be a   conversation there, but I just was like a mess. had chronic pain. was diagnosed with fibromyalgia, depression, PTSD, anxiety. then I was told I was always going to be in pain. So that was like my first mission to get myself out of physical pain. And that took a while. And I also wanted to run again. And everyone said I was crazy. And I actually did that.   about 10 years, but it was great. The thing that I think I really wanna like share, and I always try to like distill, cause I always like to share when I'm talking about my story, cause my story is super dramatic and I know this,   the power that like we all come from that source energy and we all have access to it. And we all have the right to have that, you know, that that connection, that direct connection. And if I can do it, you can do it. You know, I think sometimes people are like, well, I can't because I didn't have a near death experience or da da da da. And I'm like, no, you can't, you know. And I really feel   Michelle (10:52) and   Dr. Allison Snowden (11:13) in modern times, we've really got disconnected, with our bodies. We've really gotten disconnected with our own power because we've outsourced our healing to other healers, to a system. And we've really, as, us women, like our, we've, we've our body and our power has been dispersed. And so I really feel that as a woman.   because I am a woman, some people are like, ask me about like men's journeys, men healing. I'm like, I don't know, I'm a woman and like, I know what I know. And I've had trauma, I've had sexual trauma and I think women as women, we need, we are much more prone, like sexual violence is very.   is one of the most costly things for a woman to go through just on a psychological level of recovery. And also, I think our whole spiritual journey as women, this is just my view, is really reclaiming our power and our safety and reclaiming our body too. And what happens is with trauma or with sexual assault   something or even just emotional abandonment, there's like this unsafety wound that comes up. And if you know the chakras, that's kind of in the first and the second chakra. And if you don't have your power, you don't have your safety, you're not anchored, you're not grounded. And then you have people that always are ruminating, overthinking, trying to   Michelle (12:36) Hmm.   Mm   Dr. Allison Snowden (12:49) figure out all the little details of the plan before they get started, that fear is there. so I've just been on a journey. I started practicing doing massage while I did massage. And Ray, he started teaching that, then went to grad school. And I was always working through that. And then I started my practice in 2013.   And I've always just been a healer healing myself and then sharing it with others. know, like I always feel like I'm, I'm just so pro client, pro patient, because I resonate more with that role than I do like, you know, Dr. Allison, you know, like I'm, I am in the trenches with, I've been in the trenches and I've been really bad physically, mentally, emotionally.   and I got through it and I tried a lot of things that didn't work and I went on a lot of U -turns, you know, but I kept on going. And so I feel like I'm just a really good resource for anyone that has, because I've just been studying medicine and been in -depth training on many different platforms, functional medicine, theta healing.   subconscious reprogramming, other subconscious reprogramming stuff, and then functional medicine, and then Chinese medicine, and then also massage and energy medicine. all of our energy, our muscle, you know, our physical being and our energetic being, these are all interconnected. And also really, I've done a lot   training and then also research into, you know, nervous system and how do we heal trauma? and what does that feel like and how is that, experience and how is that experience within my body and how does that shift my hormones? How does that shift my perception of reality of reality now and, you know, reality there and, and how does that affect   you know, my mood and my thoughts. So, I felt like I was like thrown into the flat fire of just, you know, a mess of just, you know, medical, I mean, it was a medical miracle, I survived. And another miracle that like I didn't have brain damage or anything like that. So,   But I'm just really just on a mission to really help people heal faster and more effectively and really reclaiming their power and also reclaiming their power and their relationship with their body. I think when we have trauma and this can be emotional trauma, can be physical, sexual, a lot of women internalize it because maybe there's not an outlet for anger or maybe that's   Conditioned into us and so it gets turned inward and that is like, you know, then there's like that inner war And so I just really love working with women helping them reconnect to their power and and to their healing potential and their body and the wisdom of their body Because   Michelle (15:50) Mm   Dr. Allison Snowden (16:07) You know, our body has so much to tell us if we just listen. And I think just modern culture, you just because of the indoctrination of marketing or whatever, social media, know, all of that, you know, has really disconnected us from like the amazing wonderment of our body. And   You know, our bodies are our best friends. They are our co -pilots. You know, it is it is the sacred vessel that is holding our soul and it's constantly communicating with us. And in fact, my body and my soul, like when I need a message, my body and my soul are working together to get my attention. You know, they're not my body is never in pain just to I think one of the things that humans do and I've done   Michelle (16:46) Mm Yeah.   Dr. Allison Snowden (16:55) is like we get mad at our body because we think our body is falling apart just to spite us. Or just, and I just have to tell you that there's nothing more far from the truth. Like our body is like, I had this, I had this moment where I couldn't sleep because I was so uncomfortable in my body. Like after going through that many surgeries,   Michelle (17:02) Mm -hmm.   Dr. Allison Snowden (17:21) You know, I just didn't, couldn't feel comfortable in my body. I was in pain and my leg was hurting and I was just like, you know, I mean, I'm like, and, I heard this voice that was like, put your hands on your leg. And I was like, okay. So I like put my hands on my leg and, and my, my body started talking to me and was like, Hey, miss.   Stop hating me. I did not do this to you. I this happened to us This is You know horrible for me I'm working 500 million times harder than right leg over there and all you can all you can do is like Send me hatred and how ugly I look because it was like skinned and looked very You know, I couldn't move my   And she's like, you think I ruined your life? I did not ruin your life. This happened to us. So stop sending me hatred. And if you want me to heal faster, and if you want to help the process, send me love. And I was like, whoa. So I call my left leg the sassy left leg. It always tells me the truth, you know? And I think a lot of us   Michelle (18:33) wow.   That's profound. Yeah.   Yeah.   Dr. Allison Snowden (18:45) badly to our body. I I guess it's somewhat natural if something hurts maybe to get angry at it. But I guess really just to our body is in pain for a reason. There is it's a signal and your body has a language with you. And if you can get beyond that, your body is supposed to perform at like 100 percent no matter what, no matter what you do to   Michelle (19:00) Yes.   Dr. Allison Snowden (19:12) that is the internal dialogue or how you treat it or how you, you know, fill it up with and, you know, treat it like sleep, you know, self care or lack of self care. You know, our ego just thinks where it's just supposed to perform and just always be like on without like any, any like check -in. And so I think just there is such a magical world of your relationship, like you within you and you within your body, you know, and like,   my body whenever I've been pain free the second time, because I had a weird septic infection like six years ago. That was another weird medical thing that I went through. But I've been pain free from that for about four years. And anytime there's something going on with my body, I'm like, what,   What do I need to do? What are you trying to say to me? And also going into like what I do full time now, I was in functional medicine and Chinese medicine for a good 10 years. And then I started to notice, you know, with like my pain patients, my patients with autoimmune or, you know, menstrual stuff. There's like all these different things and we were pretty good at getting them better, but there's a subset of people   who weren't getting better. And I could see in their eyes, they wanted to get better. And there was just this like, there's something that I wasn't getting. And I was like, this is nervous system, this is trauma stuff. And so I took a theta healing class, and my first theta healing class, and I was like, wow, I'm home, like home as in the vibration of when I crossed over. And I just   Michelle (20:43) Yes.   Dr. Allison Snowden (20:55) felt so much better. And so I took another class, another class, and then I like took all the classes and the teacher trainings in like two years, which was like crazy fast track. also, and so with theta healing is, it's the, and I practice trauma -informed theta healing because some people that practice theta healing or energy medicine or Reiki or that, they're   trained to understand what trauma, disassociation, what different things are like. And that lack of knowledge can sometimes create maybe a gap in how they see the client. And a lot of untrained, even acupuncturists, medical doctors, and you'd be surprised how many psychotherapists aren't trauma -informed, which I was like, wait, shouldn't they all be?   that can actually like that ignorance can end up hurting the client, know, blaming them in some way, insinuating some way that they don't want to get better. And that's like so far beyond what the reality is. But with Theta Healing, it's the intersection. So between belief systems, old   that's stored in the body. And so it's a technique to really release these old imprints that are in our organs. You know, if you've had sexual trauma, it's in the tissue, you know, of our second chakra, like our body holds memory. And it's an intersection with that and belief systems and, you know, emotional   know, unconscious emotional patterns that just come up. And I think this is, it is such a powerful access because belief systems and your consciousness and how you feel and your inner state, your like inner atmosphere is everything. Because if your inner state, if you, you know, the thing with with trauma is people are   Michelle (22:49) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Dr. Allison Snowden (22:56) It's in the past. Actually, guys, newsflash, if you have unresolved trauma, it's actually not in the past. It's operating as it is alive now. And this is not the fault of the person who was traumatized. It's because how the brain operates, because we, you know, I know I exist beyond this physical body as this energetic being that doesn't need a body because I crossed over,   Michelle (23:08) Yes.   Dr. Allison Snowden (23:24) You know, right now I'm in a body and I'm in a nervous system and I have a brain. And I think that was what was so peculiar to me because I had this enlightened experience about, you know, fear is not real. You know, all that really matters is loving yourself and loving others. And then I go totally down to this   15 year old body and I get anchored back in and my soul gets anchored back into this nervous system that's like, oh no, it's not about love. I couldn't sleep. My body was traumatized. So I was just like, I felt slightly imprisoned by that trauma. Because I knew how beautiful life was and what my soul was capable of. I had   I had to face and heal the trauma and it was a very, I tried everything. So I feel like I've been my first patient always and my first testing ground. And so if something works for me, I'm like, you know, I want to share it because like, I know, and I think when you've suffered in,   you know, a lot like, I always said, if my suffering, if I get to help other people and their suffering, and I see it, I see it now every day, and it's one of the most amazing things about my job. You see people's affect and just their whole state change and their whole world opened up when they heal old traumas, old belief systems.   And we have so many belief systems and programs, we've been programs that are operating below our consciousness, and it's just on automatic. And I really do think that this is also the kind of meeting point between healing and also enlightenment, healing and total embodiment, like   embodying your power, being in your body. I mean, really in your body. Because I gotta tell you, if you've had any trauma, emotional trauma, medical trauma, you're probably not totally present. You're not totally grounded in your root chakra. And I can remember people being like, you need to ground. And I'm like, great, well, I just did.   Michelle (25:35) Yes.   Dr. Allison Snowden (25:44) 90 minutes of yoga, that didn't work. I did yoga for 13 years. That didn't, I mean, it helped, but it didn't, it didn't, you know, lock me in. And so I really do think that I'm so grateful that I stumbled onto this technique because it really, in a laser way, really did a lot of good healing work in a really short amount of time.   And I never thought it was possible. Like I never thought it was possible for, cause you know, I'd lived with like 20 years of anxiety and PTSD managing it, managing this condition. And it was like two years ago where I, you know, I'm healing, teaching, I'm taking more courses and there is a healing that happened. And I just, I was like, Whoa, I'm in my body. And I was like,   this is really nice, you know? And then I started to talk to women and I'm like, when I talk to them, I'm like, and I'm intuitively tuning in, what I see is like, okay, they have their programming from society that's been indoctrinated. I'm supposed to have a baby at da -da -da -da, I'm supposed to do this. My husband wants this, this person wants this, this person wants this. I gotta get the kids, da -da -da -da -da.   all these different things. I want to please everyone. How can I please any everyone? Then there's the unconscious resentment because who's going to take care of me? And so when I scan someone, I can feel all of these little programs operating like going like that with women. And, you know, that's usually from like a fawn response, you know, of like people pleasing because all of us, I don't know, maybe not all of us, because that's the generalization. But a lot of girls are conditioned to   you know, if we please others and that's good girl, you know, maybe that's changing. mean, I was born in the eighties, so maybe that's different. But so how is that relevant to like, you know, fertility to women's health is that all of this is operating within your body. And these programs and and and these beliefs are very strong. They affect your hormones. They affect.   if your cortisol is going up, you know, it is, I know there's some trauma survivors who are like, people are like, oh, just, you know, stop being so stressed. Well, that's a little complex. If you've had abuse, if you've had neglect, you know, it's, it's not, it, you know, like going to the doctor or being like, oh yeah, just do some 10 minutes of meditation. So yeah, no, that, that probably is not going to solve it, you know?   So first you have to know yourself and know, and I think what the thing is is that a lot of people, my story is very dramatic and they're like, she had trauma. there's, it's pretty dramatic. But I wanna say that a lot of times if you have large gaps in memory of your childhood, if you have certain fears or things like that that you can't trace   your body remembers what your mind doesn't. And so, and there really isn't really true suppression of it because, you know, it's either gonna come out in your mental health, your perception of yourself or in your habits or your lack of self-love. Cause a lot of times we, in order to deal with trauma, we turn into self -hatred or we recreate those mean voices inside our own internal narrative.   And that has consequences on our body. So, or, you know, it'll show up as an autoimmune disorder later or cancer, you know, so it's there, you know, we're gonna, I feel like people deal, I have that, have a catalyst, whether it's, you know, trying to have a baby, or having a disease or an accident or something where it really, you know, makes us look inward.   Michelle (29:42) Yeah, for sure. And you know what, I thought about so many things when you were talking and I can really relate coming from my own experience and wanting to do more for others. And I think that a lot of us in the healing world started out as our patients, as patients ourselves and work through a lot to see that we can do that. I think a lot when I think about trauma, I think a lot about the nervous system. And you've mentioned   the nervous system is kind of like a channel of information and think about just experiences in life. We store information. We're living in a time where we are, are bombarded with information. Women are growing up with all kinds of information, not all true. A lot of it's not true. And then we take in that information, store it in our body. And it's not based in truth, not based in reality. And you had mentioned kind of connecting with that divine wisdom.   that is always there waiting for us to tap into. We have that, it's our birthright. So, I mean, so many of these things I really relate to, and I think that that's what it is. It's really creating, really living in our truth, because I feel like the truth is kind of like the light, the purification, the shedding of things that are not true. And I kind of feel like that's, you know, if you think about trauma and all these beliefs,   there are basically untruths, things that are not true that we are taking in, we're storing in our body and it doesn't align with our consciousness. And when you said like that we're not in our bodies, I totally relate to that. You think about shamanistic work. They always retrieve souls. They retrieve part of ourselves. Like part of ourselves leaves our body. People talk about this in, you know, horrible victims, know, victim situations where they leave their bodies and   It's kind of like a part of our soul leaves. And I talk a lot about this, you know, with Qi, with Qi life force vitality. When we create awareness, our awareness actually opens us up to more Qi. And when we lose that Qi and our awareness is off or out, then we're lacking that life force vitality. And so that consciousness or the lack thereof, if we have a lack of consciousness in certain parts of our body, then it causes more opportunistic.   energy to come   Dr. Allison Snowden (32:01) Exactly. it's, I think, it's our truth and our power, right? Like, I think, I really do think as women, because those are the, like, because I've been working and scanning a lot of people for a long time. And probably one of the most common patterns that I see is just disempowered, like, root and sacral   And so when those chakras are disempowered, I'm like, there's a safety issue. Then there's a power issue, a sexual issue, a creativity issue, a receiving, because if you've had sexual trauma, there may be some issues of receiving things from others, right? All trauma is usually, unless it's hurricane or like   Michelle (32:34) Mm -hmm.   Dr. Allison Snowden (32:49) you know, national disaster, all trauma is usually delivered somewhat by through another human. And so that really, that, and you know, that is real. And then a lot of us to put another, you know, nuance on that, a lot of people, especially if they had childhood trauma, neglect, abuse, a lot of people don't even know that that wasn't, you know, neglect or abuse.   until they're older, just how our brain is developed and how that happens. But also if then, if there was something like molestation or sexual trauma, there's, most people are gaslit about that. And I don't know, I was just like scrolling on something. I was looking for something on the internet and then, I don't know, I saw something.   Michelle (33:27) Mm -hmm.   Dr. Allison Snowden (33:35) I guess it was like on Facebook and there's these like raw stories about just people's childhoods. And I just like went into the comments and I sometimes do this. I feel like it's sometimes just some of my advocacy. I'm like just two comments, Alice, and then you have to get back to work. just people like someone saying, her story is not making sense or da -da -da -da.   Michelle (33:58) questioning.   Dr. Allison Snowden (33:59) you know, questioning her and I'm like, no one wants to go through this, you know,   Michelle (34:06) There's a lot of that out there. It's really sad to see.   Dr. Allison Snowden (34:10) It is, and it really is. so, I mean, just to anyone who's, know, and I've spoken out about my experience, like, and some people are like, you know, like, you know, all of these different things. And I'm like, think our culture is like a major issue with judgment. And I just...   Michelle (34:30) Big time.   Dr. Allison Snowden (34:33) It is just amazing to me. You know, like I, you know, the lack of empathy, the lack of real inner connection to self and real connection to others and that like people just say things like just I think they're just getting out their anger and, you know, like forgetting that these are human beings that may read these comments. But, yeah, I mean, I think   But yeah, like with the gas lighting. So that's another thing that happens with trauma or wasn't that bad or that type of thing. So I really do think also it's like with trauma, if you didn't have someone to help you process the emotions, trauma is also what didn't happen. So if someone wasn't there for you, if someone wasn't there to help you process your emotions,   Maybe you didn't have parents that knew how to process emotions, because they were dysregulated all the time. So just the part of feeling and learning that skill and feeling is really important. know, like as in Chinese medicine, our emotions, the over or under expression of our emotions can cause disease, you know, or the stagnation of that can cause disease. And that's why I love   Michelle (35:43) Definitely.   Dr. Allison Snowden (35:47) Chinese medicine as like my base point because it acknowledges that now, like now if you look in the research, like in the seventies, was like psycho neuro immunology was just coming out and people were like, this is such, you know, BS, but like now it's like, yes, like it's, it's validating that, you know, everything is connected to everything.   and this old like Dick Hart kind of the mind is over here and the body's here and they operate like is just kind of actually like real just it that's that's been disproven over and over. But our.   Michelle (36:29) I think we're definitely moving into a new era. I really do. feel like things are breaking down. hard to watch, but I feel like things are breaking down that are not working. And I think people are starting to see it. People are starting to see the staleness of some of the old systems. just doesn't really, it's not relevant. You know, and I think that it will, it's interesting. say old system is ancient medicine has been around forever, but they consider the spirit.   They don't just look at us as a body. They acknowledge   Dr. Allison Snowden (37:00) Yeah, yeah, the spirit, the emotions, also all of the little intricacies of life and nuances and connection. And I think that's where you were talking about the nervous system. I think there's, love, like, have you heard of polyvagal theory? So   it's about just the different branches of the nervous system. And like our ventral vagal part of our nervous system is the most like new evolutionary. so ventral vagal is like our social aspect. Like you're safe, I can connect to you and I can connect to myself. And   but if we go into sympathetic or into, you know, kind of shut down freeze mode, those are the different stress stress points. So like when you're in those different nervous system, states where you're, if you've been in a collapse mode or freeze mode, you're like numb withdrawal, there's, there's a physical symptoms that go with it. And then also mental, like emotional aspects that go with it when you're in fight flight.   your nervous system and your perception, your body is really like being like, it is not safe for me to connect out there, you know, and it's looking for cues for danger. And so how, how Theta healing and the work that I do is that I work with the individual because unhealed belief systems from trauma or just even conditioning. and a lot of these are subconscious unconscious.   in our they're alive in your in your nervous system and they'll, you know, turn on your stress response when it's not needed. Right. So when you heal a trauma, then, you know, it's no longer in your consciousness. It's no longer, you know, disrupting you or, you know, there are I never had like issues with remembering my trauma, but there are people who have repressed trauma and more shut down mode. But.   I just, I don't know, I, for me, I thought like I was just going to have to manage my PTSD because I tried so many different, you name it, I tried all of the things. I had, you know, I never ever gave up, but I was like, hey Al, you know, like maybe this is, you know, and I was like, I'm never gonna stop trying. And, you know, it wasn't,   you know, one class or one session, or even, you know, it was a cumulative of a lot of work with me, because I had such extreme, like, violence that was, that my body remembered. But, like, I did get there where I finally was like, my God, I feel, I feel safe.   Michelle (39:40) Amazing. That's awesome.   Dr. Allison Snowden (39:41) And girls, like all the women on here, that is the best thing I've ever felt in my life. And it is the best thing. Like I want that for every woman because when your soul is like anchored into all your chakras and you feel safe in your body, like there's your heaven on earth.   Michelle (40:04) I love that. my God, that's powerful.   Dr. Allison Snowden (40:06) It is, it is, and I like literally, I'm like, you know what? No one, no amount of money could make me like give this away. Like not that I could, but, but like, it's, I think what happens is, is sometimes our ego, I'm, I'm sure, cause we're all human. We've done this. when, or this is how my ego worked. Alison, when you, when you have the boyfriend, when you have, this or the marriage or, or you have this much. Yeah.   Michelle (40:16) yeah.   The conditions, all the conditions, yeah.   Dr. Allison Snowden (40:34) external, all the external, this is how everyone's ego tricks them. When you achieve something outside of yourself, then it will change how you feel inside. And hey guys, it does for like maybe a day or maybe a week or maybe the honeymoon period for three months or something. But eventually, you know, like that is not the way. And   Michelle (40:50) Right, yeah.   Dr. Allison Snowden (41:02) It's like really changing our programming. So our programming, our conditioning from childhood, our identities, our stories that they show up as narratives. Because when we're little, our brain, when we experience pain as a little kid, we're trying to understand how to not make that happen again. And from our little brain that is under, that is not an adult brain, that doesn't see adults as flawed human beings,   the little child brain is like, my parent is not paying attention to me, then there must be something wrong with me. And then there's that adaptation. Maybe I'll just be more perfect. Maybe I'll work hard. So then you have all of these adults that are just living these adaptations from, and I'm not shaming that at all, because we all do it, because we all have to survive, and we all are coming from that.   Michelle (41:47) Mm -hmm, that's   Dr. Allison Snowden (41:55) There's a lot of talk about authenticity, but do people really think that their authentic self is their stories, their ego tells themselves or the stories that their trauma tells themselves or the stories that the bullies at school back in fourth grade tells them? And how do you really know that it's healed? Right? Cause there's a lot of people like, don't, especially men, they're like, I don't need healing, I'm over that. And I'm like, well, let's ask your body. And so with thinking healing,   We like in a session like I do we make in theta healing the subconscious is divided into four different levels So in other other systems, it's not divided in that but in theta healing we have The core level which is this life. So in utero up to you know this moment in time Genetics, so, you know what in our bloodline what   and also what traits carried the genetics forward, know, what belief systems. And then there's the historic, which is the collective consciousness, because we're all connected and that all these collective thoughts, but then also past lives. So, and then the deepest part is your soul, because your soul, guys, maybe you forgot it for a little bit, but all of us have this energy and we decided, or we are incarnated for a reason.   And each of you, because I've been over on that, I've peeked behind the other side, each of us have a specific, a very specific reason why we're here and different experiences we want to experience and different virtues and different virtues as in compassion, love. You we want to grow through our consciousness, our frequency.   grows through experience. And as we have different experiences, we get to learn a lot. And I really love this part of Theta Healing because   Our soul, and I can speak to this, I think sometimes, so when my soul, when I was overlooking the earth and I saw my body and I saw what was happening or what had happened, I mean, my soul was like, well, you it was almost like, I mean,   I thought I was gonna survive this, but okay, I'll get another body and we'll just go back down there. You know, it's like, I think sometimes we get so entrenched in, know, this is who I am, I'm this. Yeah, attachment. Yeah, to this body, to whatever, even the drama that's going on, even the politic, you know, all of it, it's like there. And it's like, but from your   Michelle (44:25) The attachment to like this. Yeah.   even the problems and yeah.   Dr. Allison Snowden (44:39) soul's perspective, like a little drop in the bucket, you   Michelle (44:43) right. It is. Yeah. I mean, we do, we can get very sucked into, to so many different things. And you could see it kind of in the micro too, like just throughout your life. If you have something that you're thinking about, write it down. Actually, my husband said that, a friend of his mom said, write down whatever   put it in your drawer, open it up a month from now, and then ask yourself again, are you still as upset? And he did that. And he said that really, and he was a teenager at the time, he said that really opened my mind to just how things end up working out and how much energy we put into problems. But this is amazing information. Of course, I can speak to you for hours, but we're kind of nearing the end.   If people are interested, like what's the process, how can they find you and how can they work with   Dr. Allison Snowden (45:28) Yeah. so I'm on my website is www .doctor Snowden. That's dr sn o w d e n .com. And then I'm on instagram at dr Allison Snowden. And through there I do one on one. And then what I'm really passionate about. I love doing my one on ones.   and I love teaching others to access this and to do it to themselves because we all need help. But I really think this is a skillset that is going to be like, you know, brushing your teeth, like for mental, emotional, spiritual balance that, and it's powerful. You know, if you have a limiting belief.   Michelle (46:00) That's amazing, I love that.   Dr. Allison Snowden (46:17) Like you can say, I don't believe that, but guess what guys, your body believes it. like, just cause you say you don't believe it, like there is that. it's, so Theta, I do Theta healing classes and it's a curriculum. So you have to do them, you have to do them in order. The next one is in September. So I usually have a beginning cohort in September and January. And sometimes I do a mini like condensed, like,   Michelle (46:21) Mm -hmm.   Dr. Allison Snowden (46:41) session in June. So I really just, think if you want to just upgrade your life and heal, like, and also in these classes, we have professional healers, we have doctors, we have healers, but then we have just regular people that just want to, you know, get more connected to their intuition to heal themselves, like quicker and faster. And it's such a simple thing and everyone can learn how to do   And I want, like, I just, like, one of my dreams, like, is I just want to get, like, I want this to just be like, because, you know, when I was talking about this when I was like in 99, you know, now it's like 20, 24, but I just, I'm pretty excited like you, because we've come a long way, but, you know, I think everyone, you know,   Michelle (47:09) I love that.   Dr. Allison Snowden (47:38) needs to learn at least the basics of self -healing. Because you   Michelle (47:42) 100%. They should teach us this in school. mean, it's just, it's empowerment 101. I mean, really, like, just be able to be empowered like we're, it's our birthright   Dr. Allison Snowden (47:45) Right?   it is. And so I just I love that. That's just like my my thing right now is just to get a lot of people there's the first four classes are weekend classes. And then the one that if you guys want a miracle or want a whole paradigm shift, intuitive anatomy is a 15 day class and we go through you would love this other healers like love this. So we go and clear each system. So the circular   the digestive system that has a lot of abuse programs in it. So we have a whole day and about 200 beliefs that we check and we do healings and clearings on. And like people just feel different things like discipline. It's amazing when your perspective changes, your physiology changes.   Michelle (48:34) Amazing. Awesome.   Your whole world changes. love it. I love it. This is of course all the stuff that I love talking about. And I'm so happy you came on. Your story is so inspiring and I love what you're doing for so many other people. Guys got to check out her Instagram. It's a lot of fun. She shares a lot of awesome information. I really enjoy it myself. Dr. Allison, it was such a pleasure to meet you. I knew that I was going to like you and thank you so much for coming on.   Dr. Allison Snowden (49:02) good   gosh, I like, I love talking to you and you have such a, like just a beautiful energy and like just really like my, you know, I, cause I do a lot of different podcasts and I just felt so like at home here. And I just like want to share that with you because it's just like, I just like your energy is just so welcoming and so loving. And I just like, I'm like, God, I just love my like Healer Women. We're just   I just, you know, we, you know, I just absolutely had such a, it was so great being in this space with   Michelle (49:39) Aww.   that means a lot to me. really, I really received that and, and I appreciate it. feel likewise. I mean, I really love your energy, so I think it's synchronistic. So thank you again so much.   Dr. Allison Snowden (49:57) You're welcome. Sending you so much love and thank you for listening, anyone who's listened. And if you have any comments or questions, feel free to email us or send us a DM. And we're here to help you guys heal and love your body, love your life, create what you want.   Michelle (50:16) Amen. Awesome.   Dr. Allison Snowden (50:18) Yes.    

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome back Rosanne Austin @rosanneaustinfertility. Rosanne has been on my podcast before, so if you want to hear her backstory, you can check out our first conversation on Episode 216. In our conversation, Rosanne shared her Fearlessly Fertile Live World Tour and her upcoming book, The Feminine Fertility Cure. She shares her motivation for going on the tour and the impact it has had on women. Rosanne explains the importance of reconnecting with femininity for fertility and discusses the historical context of the masculinization of women.Her book aims to educate women about the masculine and feminine energies and how they relate to fertility. The conversation explores the paradigm of progress and success that has been ingrained in society, emphasizing the importance of education, financial independence, and career achievements. It discusses how this paradigm has influenced women's choices and perceptions of femininity. The conversation also highlights the need for women to reconnect with their feminine nature and desires, and how this can positively impact fertility. It addresses the societal pressure on women to conform to a masculine ideal and the negative impact it has had on women's happiness and fertility rates. Rosanne shares practical steps for women to tap into their feminine power and improve their fertility.     Takeaways The Fearlessly Fertile Live World Tour allowed Rosanne Austin to connect with women in person and witness the impact of her work. The book, The Feminine Fertility Cure, explores the historical context of the masculinization of women and educates women about the importance of reclaiming their feminine nature for fertility. Reconnecting with femininity is crucial for fertility. Feminism should be about equal rights for men and women, including the right for women to choose to stay feminine. The paradigm of progress and success has influenced women's choices and perceptions of femininity. Reconnecting with feminine nature and desires can positively impact fertility. Societal pressure to conform to a masculine ideal has negatively affected women's happiness and fertility rates.     Guest Bio:    Rosanne Austin, JD, PCC, received her coaching training from the honored Coaches Training Institute in San Rafael, California. She is certified by and a member of the International Coach Federation, which is the leader in professional training, standards, and ethics for coaching professionals. Rosanne is also a proud member of California State Bar. She received her Juris Doctorate from University of the Pacific, McGeorge School of Law, where she was on the Dean's List and received the Witkin Award in Expert and Scientific Evidence. She also holds a Bachelor of Arts in History from San Francisco State University, graduating Summa Cum Laude.   Rosanne's professional background has given her the honor and opportunity to directly impact thousands of people's lives, at a time when they were vulnerable, fearful, heartbroken, and at a crossroads.   Rosanne is the author of 3 bestselling books and her work has been featured on leading podcasts such as The Doctor Mom Podcast, Infertility in the City, The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Infertile AF, Finding Fertility, The Hormone Puzzle Podcast, The Egg Whisperer Show. She has also had leading fertility experts such as Dr. Zaher Merhi, Dr. Aimee Eyvazzadeh, Dr. Robert Kiltz, and Dr. Christiane Northrup on her top 1% Fearlessly Fertile Podcast.   When she is not writing, mentoring, speaking, teaching, leading her transformational events and programs, or loving on her husband and son, Rosanne gives back by serving organizations committed to providing resources to survivors of Human Trafficking and for the protection of abused/abandoned dogs and cats.   https://www.frommaybetobaby.com https://www.instagram.com/rosanneaustinfertility/       For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Check out Michelle's latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:     Michelle (00:00) Welcome back to the podcast, Rosanne.   Rosanne Austin (00:03) Thanks for having me, Michelle! Such a good place to be!   Michelle (00:07) Yes, so excited to have you back. know I love you if I have you this many times back to the podcast. So I want to talk about your upcoming book that is coming out, The Feminine Fertility Cure. But I also want to talk about maybe before that, your tour that you just   Rosanne Austin (00:20) Yes.   Michelle (00:29) had but are continuing soon.   Rosanne Austin (00:31) Yes. Yeah. Well, so this so we started this year in March. We started the Fearlessly Fertile Live World Tour, which is kind of hilarious because I I was thinking to myself it was last October when this idea came to mind. So October 2023. And then we start all of the stuff that goes into it by January 2024. So I'm a pretty quick mover.   like, want to make a decision. let's just go on a world tour. And it was funny because the thought behind all this leading up to the book and everything else that I'm doing right now was a desire to really connect, to connect with the women who love the work that I do or who are curious or maybe just starting their fertility journey. But I was pretty sick of sitting behind my computer.   Michelle (01:00) You are, man.   Rosanne Austin (01:28) and being just disconnected, right? Like you and I both know because we're cool and we do this work is that we know we're energetically we're connected, but I think there's something dramatically different and rich and really colorful and just super interesting about connecting with people in person.   Michelle (01:28) Hmm.   Rosanne Austin (01:51) And so I just said, fuck it, let's go do this. And I'm like, I don't know how to do it world tour, but I do know how to travel. So the team and I just sat down together and kind of mapped out the cities where we thought we could have the most impact. And we just started traveling. So it's not like I had any experience prior to actually doing it, but I think doing it is the best possible teacher. So we started on the West coast of the United States. We did San Francisco, LA.   San Diego, and then we went on to the East Coast where we did DC, New York, New York City, and then we went up to Buffalo, because interestingly enough, I have a sizable audience in Buffalo, New York, and then we went to Toronto and Montreal. And all of those locations were just fantastic, just getting to hug my ladies, hold their babies, and really see the   fruit of what I put out in the world, but more importantly, how women take that message, apply it to their own lives, and are creating these insane results. So it was from the East Coast. We came home to Texas for a couple weeks and then got back out on the road and we started in Europe in May. So we did, my gosh, it feels like.   It was just a few weeks ago, it feels like, you know, we got back on June 3rd, but we were in Florence, Paris, London, Manchester, Birmingham, and we're in Edinburgh. And then it, yeah, it was like, boom, boom, boom, boom. tell ya. But it was great, you know, when we were filming the whole thing, our intention is to complete a documentary.   Michelle (03:33) That's awesome.   Rosanne Austin (03:43) on the work that I do and the impact and all of that good stuff to really inspire women to look beyond their current circumstances and stay focused on their vision for their lives because I met so many women along the way, some women that I had never met, some women who I just read the book or some women who were just listening to the podcast that were creating such crazy results.   And it's hard to wrap your head around. So that was also like, that was part of the intention was to get back into the trenches, but it was also to see and assess for myself what the impact could be so that I could get better at what I do. So I can really see, you know, how can I take this to the next level? How can I serve at a higher level or what the vision might be? So it's been wild. It's been really crazy. And actually,   Michelle (04:17) and then.   Rosanne Austin (04:38) At the time of this recording in a couple of weeks, I'll be in Chicago. And then we have a few dates in here in Texas. And then January, we're looking at New Zealand, Australia, Singapore, or Dubai. So it's a legit world tour. Yeah.   Michelle (04:52) love that. my god, that is just so freaking, And I love your dedication. I know you talk about like hundreds of thousands of women that you're gonna like help them conceive. I don't know if it already happened. I don't like at this point. But I know that you really have such a passion about spreading this message and empowering so many women, so many couples and   How did you decide on the locations, first of all? Did you do it based on like a survey of some people like knowing where they live or the audience?   Rosanne Austin (05:27) Well, you know, it was kind of, it was sort of both where I'm like, I'm looking at, okay, what are the major metropolitan areas? And so it wasn't like, it was strategic from that point, but it also had to be cities I was interested in going to. Like if I'm not interested, I don't go. And if I'm not interested, my energy's low, I can't, you know, because the energy in the room.   Michelle (05:40) Yeah.   I can't imagine your energy being low because I feel like you're so aligned you would never do anything that wouldn't be.   Rosanne Austin (05:52) Yeah, well, I mean, but that's kind of part of it is that, you know, but the energy like that that I was getting from being in all of these different places. And it was because I consciously chose them and was excited about them. And the women showed up like it was it was really cool. It was really, really cool to see and to watch that growth and and really   Michelle (06:09) Amazing.   Rosanne Austin (06:22) You know, because it's kind of funny because I still see myself as you know that former prosecutor with this just this idea. But it you know, so many years later, it's not just an idea. It's an actual movement. It's a phenomenon. So it was exciting and it was such a gift. It was very humbling. I would say is another thing that came up. It was very humbling to see how when women make a decision and how when women are really committed to the dream.   Michelle (06:36) Mm -hmm.   Rosanne Austin (06:51) that they can make anything happen. I mean, I sat there with women who had been told so many different times and in so many different ways that having a baby was impossible. I mean, women who had stillbirths, women who had devastating losses, second trimester losses that were in the room holding babies. I mean, it was breathtaking. And I don't think I have fully processed it, like, because I'm always on the go. I'm always like,   Michelle (07:07) Okay.   Wow.   Rosanne Austin (07:21) kind of moving through to the next project. But it was, you know, when I have quiet moments, which I do have, but when I sit and really think of the enormity of it, it's extremely humbling and it's a real testament to the human spirit. I mean, that's, I mean, the reason why I do this work is, you know, one, I find it exciting and I love learning. I'm a perpetual student. I love keeping my edge sharp.   Michelle (07:38) I love that.   Rosanne Austin (07:48) But it's also like, I really love watching these women wake up to their own power, because that's at the essence of what I do.   Michelle (07:56) Oof.   I love that. I love that. And I think that that's why I love you so much. I truly do because I feel I could really relate to that because it's just it's freaking amazing. There's nothing like it because people do have power. I think that seeing people not know that they have that is painful. And you want to make sure that everybody that you really come into contact realizes just how powerful they are.   So I'm sure based on what you're telling me that you have some incredible stories. So if anything jumps out, I would love to hear about it.   Rosanne Austin (08:37) Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, but we share that commonality in the work that we do is that it is the essence of what we're doing is trying to well, and I only try to wake up people that want to be awake. So much like you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Much like you is that when the student is ready, the teacher appears. And that's what we're there to do based on our expertise, our training, our background, our commitment.   Michelle (08:51) Mm -hmm. You have to. You can't. You can't force it.   Rosanne Austin (09:07) we come in and we say, hey, there is another way. And let me show you this modality. And you know, because that's, people have to understand that fertility is like a mosaic. They are all these different pieces. And no matter how you arrange those pieces, you are always the foundation. You are always the glue that keeps everything together. So when you are not aligned or when you have a belief system that keeps you stuck repeating old patterns, then,   It doesn't matter. It's funny, we were talking about this earlier, but you can't out supplement, you can't out yoga, you cannot out treat a belief that says you can't have what you want or you're not worthy of what you want. Or that you have no power, essentially. I mean, because it's all lies. I mean, think about what we were talking about before about the energy in our bodies, the meridians, all these things. When we were talking about your book, like,   Michelle (09:56) Yeah.   Rosanne Austin (10:05) It is the essence of saying you have the power. So anything that separates you from that reality is no good. So this work is really about coming back to understanding that you are the foundation. Once you have that foundation and then you add the beauty of what you do or the beauty of what other people do and medicine and all these other things, you can get to a place where...   Michelle (10:09) Yeah.   Rosanne Austin (10:31) you realize that you're making these things that you want, you're making them your reality. Baby, home, car, profession, all of these things that come together to create a really full life. So it's, yeah, it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool shit.   Michelle (10:46) I just had a vision in my head as you were telling me that of like a computer. You can have like state of the art parts and everything put together, but if the program is not installed, that is going to help you get from A to Z.   Rosanne Austin (11:01) Yeah, no, that's a beautiful metaphor. That's like the perfect metaphor. I'm gonna borrow that. I'm gonna borrow it. I'm gonna say thank you, Michelle Orovitz for this amazing visual here because it fucking makes sense. Yeah.   Michelle (11:06) Take it, take it, it's a gift. Yes. Yeah.   And physical parts itself is doing all the things, out supplementing and all of that for sure. And so let's talk, I'm very excited to talk about this, the feminine fertility cure. tell us everything.   Rosanne Austin (11:29) Duh.   okay. So this this book is many, many years in the making. So and it actually Yes, yes, yes. Well, and it was funny because I actually can thank Chinese medicine for this because when I was on my own journey, I had no idea I was stuck in my masculine or my yang as you would say it. And   Michelle (11:38) Those are always the best ones.   Rosanne Austin (12:00) I thought I was kind of a weirdo. I just thought, you know what, I got this problem. Like I'm not able to receive, on the exterior, I'm, you know, yeah, I'm feminine. I wear makeup, I got cute clothes, I get my nails done and all that. I had all the physical outward trappings of femininity, but my energy was decidedly masculine. Now I was starting to ask questions about why that was.   At first I thought, well, it's just my profession. As a prosecutor, it's decidedly masculine profession. You have to armor up. You're going into a courtroom, possibly with a homicidal maniac or a serial rapist. You gotta have your armor up. But what I found out is that the armor was never coming off. And as I started, when I got on my journey and then I started teaching other women what I had learned and then I left my work as a prosecutor,   and really went full throttle into what I do, I started seeing a pattern that a lot of other women I was serving also had this problem with a disconnection to their femininity. And I observed it for a while and I'm like, okay, let me just take note of this. Let me just take note. And...   Michelle (13:12) Yeah.   Rosanne Austin (13:19) I was like, well, there's something to this, you know, this idea of conceiving is all about receiving. And if we're stuck in our masculine and disconnected from our feminine, how the hell are we ever gonna receive from our partner and conceive? So I really started to take note. And because I serve such lovably type A recovering control, freaky professional women, you know, at the top of their game who are primarily in more   Michelle (13:32) Yeah.   Rosanne Austin (13:49) masculine professions, it, so many of us get stuck and I'm like, well, how the fuck do we get unstuck? And then I started to work through that. I looked at what I was doing. How was I reconnecting with my feminine? And I'm like, okay, so let me take what I learned, start teaching it. Let me start studying more. Let me explore more of this feminine. So when I started incorporating this kind of work into what I was doing, I saw the results skyrocket.   Michelle (13:56) Mm -hmm.   Mmm.   Rosanne Austin (14:18) within women to help them reconnect to the feminine. But what was more interesting and the questions that I started answering with this book, The Feminine Fertility Cure, was where the hell did this start? Because you don't just have a couple generations of women completely disconnected to their feminine. Where did this start? So I started doing research, and this is where it gets super interesting. I'm like,   Michelle (14:40) Hmm.   Rosanne Austin (14:46) If you look, and I only speak about the United States because that's where I live, that's what I know, that's a culture I was raised in. But if you look at what has happened to women ever since the women's movement, it's actually quite shocking. And through the research and watching it myself and being caught up in it myself, we really got this message that   since the women's movement in the 1960s, I use in my book, the Kennedy administration as kind of this line of demarcation that post the Kennedy administration in the United States, there was a concerted effort to masculinize women, to take us away from our feminine nature. And we were sold, well, I don't really call it sold, I call it a fucking scam. In my book, we were scammed out of our femininity because what we were told is that, yeah, get out in the workplace, you know,   get yourself out of the shackles of domesticity and you're gonna be free. But what was really happening was a systematic masculinization. So we were taken away from our feminine nature and told that you have to work hard, you have to dress like a man, you have to pack up your emotions, you have to conform, separate yourself from your spirituality.   Michelle (15:48) Okay.   Rosanne Austin (16:08) and femininity is weak, we started to see all of these things that if you wanted to be a successful woman who represents progress, be more like a man. And the data's undeniable. It's undeniable. Like, because you think about it, and of course, I went into a profession that, as like I said before, as a prosecutor is very masculine. There's nothing feminine about anything that you're doing there.   And when you spend long enough in that masculine mode, you get disconnected from the feminine. You don't even know what it is. Like, you'd be surprised, Michelle, how many physicians, surgeons, lawyers, engineers that I work with, like when I say the feminine, there's like this giant question mark over their head, like what? You know, but when you look at some of the propaganda that we were fed as   Michelle (16:45) Hmm.   Rosanne Austin (17:05) you know, anyone born post Kennedy administration. The idea was, is that in order for you to be free and to have progress, you got to go into life in a certain way and it's decidedly masculine. So what this book is about is educating women about basically how that happened, educating about what the masculine is, what the feminine is, how it directly connects to fertility because   Michelle (17:34) Yeah.   Rosanne Austin (17:34) I don't care what anyone says. Having a baby is the most fucking feminine thing you will ever do. And this is why trying to do it from young in your terms or like a man in mine, I watch women try to get pregnant like a man all the time and men don't get pregnant, okay? We as women do. And when you're trying to do a decidedly feminine thing like a man, you find yourself with problems. And another thing about   Michelle (17:47) Mm -hmm.   Rosanne Austin (18:04) The masculine, which, and I've got nothing on the masculine. I've got no complaint because the masculine and the feminine work synergistically. You and I know this. One is not better than the other. That's not what I'm saying here. But what this work is about and what I get into in this book is really encouraging women to reclaim. It is all about reclamation. Reclaim your feminine nature because   Michelle (18:26) Yeah.   Right.   Rosanne Austin (18:31) It's from the feminine that you are going to heal what ails you when it comes to your fertility. Because when you think about the masculine, it's go, go, go, do, do, do, you are not enough, you just work harder, do more, be more perfect and this will happen. The feminine, I mean think about what the feminine stands for. It's the spiritual, it's the nurturing, it's the fertility.   Michelle (18:58) creative.   Rosanne Austin (19:00) Yeah, it's the creative, it's the surrendered, it's the open, it's the receptive, all of those things. I mean, those are some important things when you're trying to conceive. But when we're stuck in man mode, we are completely cut off from that. And then we keep beating our head up against the wall trying to figure out why I have so much inflammation. Why do I have all this stuck energy? Why do I feel like nothing's moving? It's because you're stuck in man mode.   and I want to say this because some, you know, this, I want to be super clear, like this book is not political at all. Some will probably read this book and accuse me of being anti -feminist, but I come from the perspective, I look at feminism as in a very legalistic way, that men and women have equal rights. That's it. That's it. Any, for me, anything beyond that?   starts to get far afield, people abuse it, all this other stuff. So I come from the perspective that, you know, because around that time people will say, well, you don't think that was a good time because this is when, you know, feminism rose up. Well, yeah, and so did a lot of other things. Okay. So I'm looking at this strictly from when we look at feminism and believing that men and women have equal rights under the law. And we say that a woman   deserves to have a right to choose in just about everything in her life and that also includes staying feminine, right? Because the messaging that we got was the only way to be successful is to act more like a man. Think about this, Michelle. So I'm 50 and I do not recall ever hearing messaging that staying home and having babies and being in a relationship was a legitimate option.   Michelle (20:35) Is it?   Rosanne Austin (20:51) The only thing I ever heard was leave the house, never depend on a man, get an education, make a bunch of money and be untouchable, right? That was the paradigm of progress.   Michelle (20:56) Mm -hmm.   You see it everywhere. You see it on TV shows, on movies, like everywhere, everywhere.   Rosanne Austin (21:05) Yeah, that was the paradigm of progress and success. And think about it, I remember, and this is like, this just shows how deep the programming is. I remember a girl in my high school class who wanted to get married and have babies. And I remember thinking, poor thing, that's a life thrown away.   Like how anti -woman is that shit? I mean, that's how deep the programming was. And I thought I was the quote unquote feminist back then. Like not respecting that woman's desire and her otherwise legitimate choice to live her life with traditional feminine pursuits, right? And the whole point of this is not to say it's bad to have a profession or it's bad to stay at home. It's none of that.   It's a masculine paradigm that tries to force us into choosing. Rather than saying, okay, we as creative, resourceful, and whole women get to move through those things. You know, like you might do time as a prosecutor, you might do time as a physician, and then decide that your soul is saying, I really want to go home, I want to get pregnant, I want to have babies and chickens and a garden. Like that's legit.   Michelle (22:01) Right, yeah, good point.   Rosanne Austin (22:27) But yet that, you know, so much of the messaging up to this point has been, that is the lesser choice. Like the feminine is the lesser choice or the feminine is the weak. And so everything that I'm talking about in this book is saying, look sister, your fertility and your issues with fertility right now are a wake -up call. It's a wake -up call to come home to the fucking feminine because...   Your femininity, your feminine is your fertility superpower.   Michelle (22:58) love that. my God. So many things come to mind. And I'm thinking about the Yin and the Yang. Like imagine the Yin and the Yang start arguing with each other or like fighting like each other's nature. Well, you should be like this. You should know like everything in nature has the Yin and the Yang. They need to be there. They need to be there. Otherwise, this is what my professor told me when we first learned about it. Like when Yin and Yang separate, there is death because we need the Yin and Yang for vitality.   Rosanne Austin (23:23) Mmm!   that's so good.   Michelle (23:26) So we need that and it's like really to kind of bring it to that and I am going to talk science right now because in so there's been a couple of studies that I saw about having sex outside of the fertile window. When women are more sexually active, which they naturally would be if they felt connected with their partner. It's just like a natural tendency. But what happens physiologically?   is when they are more sexually active, unprotected, even outside of the fertile window into the luteal phase, you know what happens? A woman's immune system starts to change from what it was before. And what happens is the immune system starts to bring its arms down a little bit more. It starts to become more receptive, more calm. It lowers itself. It stops being in such a fight mode, ready to attack.   And design. When it does that, when it knows, okay, I'm in receptive mode here, we're having more sex, I'm getting familiar with the sperm, I allow it in so that this isn't an invader. I'm receiving, inviting, allowing. So this is literally like what you're telling me here.   immune systems don't do that because they don't receive they they're putting out it's a different energy it's a different flow it's a different direction.   Rosanne Austin (24:48) Mmmmm   Yeah. that's so beautiful. I love that you shared that because, you know, it's a really warped thing that we have gotten into as women. And when you think about it, it really is insidious.   Like why, I mean, we even see this today because we were talking about, like if we look at the women's movement from the 1960s, like the intention was good, of course. We want women to have equal rights under the law as men. That's obvious, that's basic, it's a human right. But when you look at how that got warped and then it's like, okay, well, if you really wanna be free, get out of the house, do all this stuff, start acting like a man, you know, we even see images in media.   Michelle (25:25) Mm -hmm.   Rosanne Austin (25:41) and film and all this other stuff of women being, you know, having sex like men, which is wildly unnatural. Like that's not our natural state as women to be like predators in that sense, you know? Yeah.   Michelle (25:56) we have more oxytocin and it actually is meant to connect us more to one person.   Rosanne Austin (26:03) Right, right, right. And then, you know, we see this ripple effect that it's had and we look at since about 1970, and women will have to take a look at the book to get the dates right. I have so many dates and numbers, you know, stuck in my head from having done the research, but it was around 1970 that we started to track women's happiness on a consistent basis. So we have data going back to   Michelle (26:19) Yeah.   Rosanne Austin (26:32) approximately from 1970 to about 2006, that tracks with not only did the birth rate go down, because we have things like, you know, no fault divorce, we have the advent of birth control, abortion being legal, all of these things, these new cultural things that happen, that as women left the home, pursued education, made more money, had fewer children,   there's actually an inverse relationship. So the more educated a woman became and pursued those more masculine results, the less happy she became. And I believe the number is 35%. happiness has dropped by 35%, the more educated that we became and the more separated from the home. Now what's funny is this research that came out of the Wharton School of Business showing that like is the   Michelle (27:16) wow.   Rosanne Austin (27:31) antithesis of what we were sold about the women's movement, that we would be happier when the data shows quite opposite. And then you look at the issues that we have today with dismal and terrifying birth rates. We went from one in eight couples struggling with fertility to one in five.   Michelle (27:50) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. That's crazy. Yeah.   Rosanne Austin (27:54) I think the average woman today, I think the number was hovering about 1 .7 children per woman. That's not even sustainable population growth at this point. So there are so many things that, and there's so many things that go into it. I'm not just saying that it's because we all become masculine. There's also plastics in our food. There's also glyphosate and rampant, overuse of medications and all kinds of   Michelle (28:06) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.   Rosanne Austin (28:23) you know, fluoride in the water. I'm gonna put my tin foil hat on right now, people can see it. But it's actually not, yeah, I mean, there's just so much stuff that has changed, but you can't deny that our attitudes have changed. And you know, women are having babies later. And I think that's a beautiful thing, but it also is indicative of a systemic cultural shift to say that, well, you don't have babies until...   Michelle (28:29) The radiation, everything.   Rosanne Austin (28:50) You've made this much money, you've had this much education, you've done X, Y, Z, you've published this number of papers. It's, in a sense, like, I really feel like women have been conditioned away from having the highest degree of choice. And it's heartbreaking. And then when women finally are in their 40s and they're trying to have babies, they go into the fertility world hearing that the window is closed.   Michelle (29:18) Mm -hmm. Right. Right.   Rosanne Austin (29:18) and too bad for you. So it's like, it's like you can, you find yourself getting to this place where you're saying, well, is this all there is? Because having babies is not just a fleeting desire, it's a longing. And if it was made, let's just say like it's a passe idea to be at home, have babies and pursue a happy home life.   If that was just passe and everyone's beyond it, tell me why the fertility industry is a multi -billion dollar industry. People still want it. This is why you have women getting to 45, meeting the right partner, and then longing to have a baby because it's innate in us. It's innate. It's fascinating. It's super, yeah.   Michelle (29:55) Yeah.   Yeah.   Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah.   It is fascinating. And the fact that you're really looking at the research and you actually have numbers and percentages, that is what is so cool about this. And I think also, you know, all the messages that we get, you know, you're too old, but did you know, do you know what the highest, the Guinness Book of World Records, highest naturally conceived and birthed child, highest age?   Rosanne Austin (30:35) No, what maybe in the 60s?   Michelle (30:37) You're going to love this and you could use this. Use this all you want. And I know you will because it's so freaking good. 58. 58. And it's a woman from the UK, Dawn Brooks, I believe was her name, and from the UK of all places where there's a lot of deficiency in vitamin D. But yeah, yeah, she did. And then I think about, actually, I remember Tori Quisling had mentioned   Rosanne Austin (30:46) I love it.   Michelle (31:02) She didn't mention the name, but she had mentioned how one person breaks the record and then other people hear about that and then all of a sudden they're breaking the record. And that really goes to the Roger Bannister effect where they said, there's no way you could break that four minute mile and then one person breaks it and then four others do within a couple of weeks from that.   Rosanne Austin (31:15) Mmm.   But yeah, but that's also like a scriptural reality too. I mean, you look at ancient books, you hear about women being fertile at times, whether people choose to interpret that as a metaphor or not is their business. But you hear about women being able to do miraculous things very late, allegedly in life. And so this is why I wanted to write the book because I find that when women tap back into their femininity,   Michelle (31:28) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Rosanne Austin (31:53) They tap back into the love of self. They tap back into self -care. They tap back into their truest desires. They speak them, they rest. Instead of doing what they should do, they do what they desire to do. It drops the level of stress and puts them in a more receptive yin mode. And then we see women, I mean, I've seen this in my own practice. You see women who were given single digit odds.   Michelle (32:01) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Love that.   Rosanne Austin (32:22) going and getting pregnant with ease when they go, they tap back into their nature. You know, it's just, it's fascinating. So like I had a woman that was in my program who was 52. And what was interesting about her was that she had this longing. She had this longing. She had, you know, she was a successful business owner. She was like, I just don't feel like my life is complete.   Michelle (32:27) Thank you.   Rosanne Austin (32:50) I am intended to be a mother. I'm intended to be a mother now. And she pursued this child. And now her son's like probably a year and a half old now. Like it's just fascinating. And what it required for her to get there was tapping back into that feminine desire. So my objective in this book is to educate women about what the feminine is, show them how it has been.   programmed out of us and ultimately what to do to reclaim it. Because we see that once you improve your self care, the stress level goes down, the data shows consistently that when cortisol levels are high, it takes longer for women to get pregnant and it negatively impacts results in controlled environments like IVF. Like they've seen this. They've even tested hair samples.   women with the highest concentrations of cortisol have the biggest struggles. And it's just wild. And so when you think about this from a mindset perspective, and you think about the very masculine messages women have gotten about what success means, it's like when you change your mind about what success looks like, and you start looking at it from a feminine perspective, then you can start changing the game.   and you can heal yourself, you can heal your fertility, and you'll do that through a more open mind, more receptive, look at different opportunities and different things that come up. So it just gives us the ability to tap into our innate feminine nature so we can do the innately feminine fucking thing that we're trying to do. So yeah, so that's the essence of what the book is about. And...   Michelle (34:36) Yeah.   Rosanne Austin (34:42) Women can find the book anywhere the books are sold and it'll be out August 2nd.   Michelle (34:50) I love that. And so question, as far as momentum goes, because I know that when we're in a path, we're on a path and we just keep going, going, going and say we're like on a masculine path or we've been conditioned, I find that it's just like you start to take a momentum and it's very hard to switch gears and shift back, even if it is our nature. So just if anybody's listening, what are some of your thoughts or anything you want to share about like really   getting to that place of switching gears.   Rosanne Austin (35:22) Okay, one of the greatest ways to switch gears is to look at your fucking results. If you do not like your results, you have to have the humility and the open heartedness to say, what I am doing is not working. And to say that from a loving perspective. Like I don't look at things not working or mistakes or things that have happened in a negative way, right? They're just new.   Michelle (35:34) Mm -hmm.   misalignment.   Rosanne Austin (35:46) Yeah, and it's just, it's more nudges in the right direction. So if you don't like the result that you're getting, then you have to ask yourself, what isn't lined up here? What can I do better from a loving perspective, from the perspective of commitment to what I say I want? And one of the first steps is how connected am I to my feminine? Or what is my thought process? What are my thoughts telling me?   you know, are my thoughts sounding more like a man, like, mm, you know, wagging the finger saying, you're not enough, this is stupid, why are you doing this? It's decidedly more masculine, right? When we're in our feminine, there's gonna be nurturing that's saying, hey, hey, babe, you know what, this isn't working. Let's look at something, some other options, right? It's decidedly different in energy. So number one, if you wanna switch gears, look at your result. From a completely dispassionate place, just say, hey,   is what I'm doing working and if it is not, what can I do differently? That's like the first step is that level of awareness. And then the second step would be to decide to be different. Now I know that that may sound vague, but in some ways it kind of is because for everyone the pursuit is gonna be different. What do I need to do different is gonna look different for everybody. I come from the perspective that it all starts with us.   It all starts with the mind because when your mind is lined up, then you'll do the right physical things. You'll pursue different things like your work. You'll pursue different avenues and a constellation of new opportunities will show up because you were different. So number one, look at the result. Number two, give yourself the opportunity like, hey, what can I do differently here? Truly from a place of, hey, I'm super committed to what I want.   and I wanna get there. So if I can love myself enough through this process and give myself plenty of runway to try things, it's more likely that I'm gonna get there than if I keep my narrow vision that there's only one way to get there. Because the feminine is all about the meandering. It's all about the exploration. And...   Michelle (37:59) Yeah.   Rosanne Austin (38:02) You know, if it was as simple, Michelle, as a sperm and an egg coming together, then not one of us would suffer on this journey. But we know that, you know, everybody's different and the journey is nonlinear. So it's like, open yourself up, try something new. Try the feminine fertility here. See if that works for you. Because I've seen women around the world tap into this power and create insane results. And it's my sincere hope that women listening will do the same.   Michelle (38:15) Right.   I really think that you're doing the right thing for your purpose. Like I really do. I feel like you are truly activated and doing your purpose and working your purpose because I feel like you're really making so many transformations happen. And I see it. I mean, it's literally happening around the world and it is a movement and this is why I love you so much. And I could keep talking to you for hours. I know you have to go.   I would love it if you just tell people how they can find you. Otherwise, I know the book's gonna be everywhere. Books are sold, right?   Rosanne Austin (39:07) Yeah, yeah. Well, I love you too, Michelle. And I really appreciate the support that you give to my work. And we're such a great pair because our work is so synergistic. And it's just fantastic. And I'm really honored to share that with your audience. And here's the thing. I like to encourage women, look, trust yourself. Trust yourself.   You have this ability to do this and there's nothing to be afraid of when it comes to the feminine. The feminine is your fertility superpower and the feminine is not just pink and sparkly shit. It's going to be expressed in your own unique way. And the sooner you make up with her, the sooner that you make her okay to be back in the room, she's gonna be your BFF. She is your fertility BFF and she's gonna show you the way.   Michelle (39:51) I love that.   Rosanne Austin (40:00) So I'm really excited to get this out in the world. I really hope women receive it with the love that it was written. And yeah, thanks for having me on. Thank you for sharing this.   Michelle (40:06) Beautiful.   thank you so much for coming on. It was awesome.   Rosanne Austin (40:13) Thanks, Michelle, bye!  

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Naomi shares her personal fertility journey and how she discovered the mind-body link in fertility. She emphasizes the importance of mindset and emotional well-being in the fertility process. We discuss the concept of toxic positivity and the need to embrace and process uncomfortable emotions.    Naomi highlights the science-backed positive psychology techniques that can reduce stress and improve fertility success rates. Mind-body techniques can improve mental health, relationships, and overall quality of life.  Naomi emphasizes the importance of feeling good and finding joy during the fertility journey. She shares the power of hypnotherapy and emotional freedom technique (EFT) in shifting beliefs and accessing the subconscious mind.    Takeaways The mind-body link plays a crucial role in fertility, and mindset and emotional well-being are important factors to consider. Toxic positivity can be harmful, and it is essential to embrace and process uncomfortable emotions. Science-backed positive psychology techniques, such as mindfulness and hypnosis, can reduce stress and improve fertility success rates. Mind-body techniques not only improve fertility outcomes but also enhance mental health, relationships, and overall quality of life. Managing stress and finding joy during the fertility journey can improve overall well-being and increase pregnancy success rates. Hypnotherapy and emotional freedom technique (EFT) can be powerful tools in shifting beliefs and accessing the subconscious mind. Challenging medical assumptions and seeking second opinions can provide new perspectives and options for fertility treatment. Feeling good and having positive emotions can have a significant impact on fertility and overall health. The Embrace Fertility Method offers a comprehensive approach to fertility support, incorporating various techniques and personalized guidance.     Guest Bio:    Naomi Woolfson, of Embrace Fertility, is a trauma trained therapist specialising in supporting women emotionally and energetically to conceive, carry and birth the babies they long to hold.   Alongside supporting clients globally in one to one therapy and coaching sessions Naomi runs an online 12 week mind-body group programme guiding women through the 5 steps of her unique Embrace Fertility Method; Comfort, Coping, Connection, Clearing and finally Creating.      Naomi hosts the Embrace Fertility podcast offering emotional support and sharing mind-body techniques to help you feel calm and confident and ultimately find yourself again while waiting for your baby.   Personally Naomi and her partner went through almost 4 years of infertility, IUI's, IVF, anxiety, surgery and a miscarriage before conceiving both of their children naturally.   Visit www.embracefertility.co.uk for instant access to Thrive - A deep dive into the science backed mind-body techniques to emotionally and energetically thrive while trying to conceive. 3 x 30 min videos.    Naomi also offers specialist pregnancy support and runs the hypnobirthing course Embrace Bump to Baby of which the first week is free.    Instagram @embracefertility https://www.youtube.com/@embracefertility https://www.linkedin.com/in/naomi-woolfson/   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Check out Michelle's latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Naomi. I'm so excited to have you on today.   Naomi (00:04) Thank you for having me.   Michelle (00:06) Yes. So I would actually, first of all, love if you could tell your story because I know you've been through your own fertility journey. And I also, of course, I'm going to be very excited to talk to you today because as you know, this is like I nerd out on like the mind, body and just like how the mind works. And so I'm really excited to have you on. And then I just wanted for you to introduce yourself and give us your background.   Naomi (00:34) Yeah, so I went through infertility myself. We ended up having four rounds of fertility treatment. I was actually diagnosed with endometriosis as a teenager and told that I would probably need IVF to have children. But got married and I was like, nope, that's not gonna be me. I could be one of those women with endometriosis that just gets pregnant and it's fine. And I was very into the law of attraction and the secret and...   manifesting and set those intentions. I just set the intention. I was like, we're ready for a baby now. Come on. And then nothing happened. And then, you know, I was manifesting, I was doing my vision boards, my affirmations. And instead of getting a baby, I got ovarian cysts and ended up needing to have surgery. And they were like, you really, you know, really push you like into treatment now, like your endometriosis is getting worse, like every month you're not getting pregnant.   endometriosis is spreading. So I had a laparoscopy, they removed the cysts, did some laser action on the endometriosis, did treatment, didn't work, did more treatment, didn't work. And I was getting more and more anxious, more and more depressed. I was like, this isn't how it's supposed to be. And was feeling awful. And then found out about the mind body link and learned that it wasn't the fact I wasn't getting pregnant.   Michelle (01:34) Hehehe   Naomi (01:57) that was causing the anxiety and the panic attacks. It was my thoughts about the fact I wasn't getting pregnant. And this blew my mind because I was so interested in meditation and the law of attraction and all these things already, but I'd never really put that together. I was like, all right, so that means I don't have to wait till I get pregnant to then be okay. And they're like, yep, that's it. And I was like, no, don't believe that. That, just no.   And then as I was practicing mindfulness, like really getting in touch with what was going on and the beliefs I had about pregnancy, the beliefs I had about my body, came to this place of acceptance and actually felt happier then than I ever had in the past, even though I was yet to be pregnant. And then actually our fourth round of fertility treatment was successful and I got pregnant, but then I miscarried.   Michelle (02:47) Mm.   Naomi (02:54) And instead of going back into depression and anxiety, I actually felt hopeful for the future and then conceived naturally three months later after the miscarriage and then have my daughter naturally two years later. And so throughout all of this decided that I had to share these techniques. So I actually left my career in design while I was going through IVF, retrained as a hypnotherapist and was actually working and supporting women in this field like two years into my journey and then it was like another two years before I got pregnant myself.   Michelle (03:29) That's such an amazing story. And I love it for so many different reasons. And again, I apologize for the background noise if anybody's hearing that. but it's, it's incredible in so many ways. You know, the book I thought about when you were talking about that, have you ever read Man's Search for Meeting by Victor Frankel? And that blew my mind because I think that we are so conditioned and I think it is kind of like second nature to say, okay, well,   Naomi (03:45) Mm. Yeah.   Michelle (03:55) We can't possibly feel good if we're going through something that is difficult. That book specifically was like the most extreme of like what you could possibly go through. He was, you know, in a concentration camp. I mean, so you can't get worse than that. And the way he discussed about how we have one freedom that's left over, and that's the freedom of how we choose to view things.   And I think that is so profound because I really do feel like people think that they have no choice. So how did you finally, not just realize this, but also because you could realize it and you can hear it. And then sometimes you can fight that. So how did you like surrender to that and say, okay, you know, there's maybe, maybe it is how I'm looking at it. Cause that's a hard thing to go through.   Naomi (04:50) Yeah, and it was very much that I did fight it because my friend actually bought me that book like while we were going through Yeah, and I was like Why aren't you giving me this like well, that's depressing literally just put it on my shelf and I was like I'm too depressed to read something because it was so triggering and was and I was like I you know, I can't read that and it wasn't until like years later that like picked off the shelf and I was like this is what   Michelle (04:55) This book that I just mentioned? wow.   Naomi (05:18) that's why you wanted me to read it. But at the time I just wasn't receptive to that. But also with when people first started saying to me, it's like, you can be happy even without a baby. And all I could hear in that was them telling me to stop wanting a baby. And I was like, I've wanted a baby since I was like two and a half and my mum had my younger brother. I can't switch off me wanting to be a mum.   who I'm supposed to be, that's what I'm supposed to be. I really believed that. I was like, I can't turn that off. And then it was as I got deeper into it, they're like saying, they're not saying turn that off. They're saying stop desperately wanting it so much and believing that that's the thing that's suddenly gonna make everything okay. Because it's also they now I'm supporting women, they get that positive pregnancy test and they don't go, amazing. Well, I feel amazing now.   Michelle (05:47) Yeah.   Naomi (06:11) just a whole new set of worries come in, a whole new set of anxiety, because then they're like, well, now I need to get to the eight week scan, now I need to get to the 12 week scan, so here's a 20 week scan. Whereas if you can learn to come to that place, and I think for me, it was a combination of mindfulness meditation, journaling, emotional freedom technique, really exploring what my thoughts were doing to me. Like my thoughts were literally making me physically sick.   Michelle (06:17) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Naomi (06:40) having panic attacks, I wasn't sleeping, my digestion was all over the place, I had IBS and it was because of my my thinking I was making myself ill and it was only when I really sort of started to accept that that I could start to change whereas to start with was like no I just need to get pregnant as quickly as possible that will fix the anxiety I won't have panic attacks anymore once I'm pregnant, it'll be fine but obviously then it was months and months and months more of trying to conceive and it's living in that discomfort where you don't need to. So that's what I talk about a lot. It's like you don't have to live in this waiting zone of limbo. You can be happy now, you can be joyous now and still really, really, really want a baby and still be doing all the things you need to help you get pregnant, but not have that desperation and that like, if this doesn't happen this month, the world will end.   Michelle (07:37) Yeah. I mean, what you're saying right now is so profound and true and important because I think that part of it is just how we've been conditioned just as a people. I think everywhere, modern day times, everything's a quick fix. And really the outside is revered as like really the material world is revered as like the end all be all where in ancient times they've always pointed us internally.   Go within, go within, go within. The answer is within. And now you tell somebody that they're like, what do you mean? Like within, I want to get, let's be realistic. Okay. You know, so what's, but what is reality ultimately, right? But a reflection of our internal world, but we're trying to fix the reflection. I mean, this is really how I see it. There is a reflection. We know this also with quantum physics. There is something to that, that   Naomi (08:15) Thanks.   Michelle (08:35) everything that happens outside of us is really reflection. And that's not, I just want to say this, not to blame anybody. This isn't saying that it's your fault or anything like that, or that you can control everything. Not at all, but that internal world does have an impact really on your life. And I think that it's often overlooked, it's often ignored, and we get so hyper -focused on really what I would call the reflection rather than going.   within and starting from within where that in tandem is really beneficial. So not that the outside means nothing and it's just an illusion, but it is really important to address the inside. And I think that you're saying that you can actually feel happy and at peace while you're going through something difficult would be very hard to believe for a lot of people. And this is what I love is that you   have been there. It's not like you're just saying, you know, hypothetically, it would be really like easy for you. No, you know, you actually went through this and discovered it on your own journey.   Naomi (09:44) And I think that's so interesting is like, you know, now I have my two kids, they're both ginger, they're both born in June. It's like, it literally, the way it turned out, even though it took more years to happen, what I wanted has now, now exists. I wanted ginger babies, I wanted them to have June birthdays so we could have a giant bouncy castle, you know, garden birthday party. These things all happened, but now there are other things in my life.   that test me in the same way. And it's remembering, it's like going, you know, we'll feel happy and relaxed, like when we get to this point or, you know, summer holidays are a few weeks by a lot, we're just going to just get through these few weeks. And again, it's like we're rushing through life instead of being like, well, where's the joy in today? How do I want to be today? And instead of just being like, here's my to -do list, I'm going to plod through and cross through these things off. And it's like, well, no, every day.   Michelle (10:21) Hehe.   Mm -hmm.   Naomi (10:42) can be that gift and can be that, how do I wanna show up? And so it's like, you learn these techniques and it's not just to get you pregnant and then you're like, brilliant, pregnant now, can throw all this in the bin and move on. It's like, it's been constantly helpful throughout pregnancy, throughout labor, while the kids were tiny, like now they're starting to get bigger, you know, it's more dealing with the emotional storms that they're.   Michelle (10:56) Mm -hmm.   Naomi (11:09) going through rather than physical things like when they were younger. And so it's having these tools and techniques to fall back on each time and being like, they're my rock, like they're my foundation of how I do life. And so then if I don't practice them and kind of fall off the wagon, and then I'll really notice that. And it'll be like, you know, if you haven't brushed your teeth, you can really feel it and you're like, my teeth don't feel quite right. I feel the same now. It's like, if I don't meditate or don't journal,   Michelle (11:24) in.   Yeah.   Naomi (11:38) or I walked in the woods, I'm like, just my mind feels a bit icky, a bit like, I'm not, what's wrong? I haven't been for a walk. I haven't flossed my teeth. You know, it's that same, like, sort of, just something feels a bit off.   Michelle (11:43) Young.   Yeah. And I think that, we almost don't realize like how off we feel until we start to do things that are good for us. And then we're like, this feels really good. And I can't really go back because then that doesn't feel right. And I think that that's what it is. I feel like meditation is like mental hygiene. It's like   Naomi (12:09) Yeah. Yeah. And it's so often people are, they get really busy. And so you're like, I'll drop that. And I love that quote that it's like, if you're, you know, if you're, if you're busy, you should meditate for an hour a day. If you're really busy, you should meditate for two. And I just love that because it's so true when we get busy, we're like, we drop the things that are really good for us and can allow us to traverse the busyness and the things in life.   in a much more elegant way.   Michelle (12:38) Yes, totally. It's almost like when you're taking, I always look at the branches and the flowers and everything really comes from the root. And if you're ignoring the root where everything comes from and really not feeding the plant itself and nourishing, how is it supposed to sprout? How is it supposed to flower? You can't expect it to do that unless you're taking care of it. And I think that we need to, we must.   care of ourselves, like in every way. If we're expecting things from our body, if we want longevity, I mean, that's really the core of vitality.   For sure. And then let's talk about, okay, so we hear, and this is a pretty common thing in the fertility world, you know, this idea of, obviously there's science -backed positive psychology, which we know about, and then there's something called toxic positivity, which isn't as helpful. And then what happens is, which I find to be a shame, is that sometimes people get so like turned off.   by that, that they're not even willing to look at the science which actually can in fact help.   Naomi (13:47) Yeah, definitely. I think because there's this whole kind of culture of, if you just relax, it will happen. If you just stop thinking about it, if you just like the best yet, it's like, if you just stop trying, then you'll get pregnant. And I always used to say, it's like, this isn't going to be an immaculate conception. Like if we stopped trying, there will be no baby because we're not trying. And what people are trying to communicate is stop being so desperate. Stop like desperately   Michelle (14:07) Right, right.   Naomi (14:16) grasping for what you want, but if you tell someone who really wants something to stop wanting it, or you tell someone who's really stressed to stop being stressed, or you tell someone who's really worried to stop worrying, all you're doing is adding another worry, another stress, onto that list because now they're like, hang on, you're basically now saying that's my fault that I'm stressed, that I want it too much. And saying to a woman who's like, I was so   Michelle (14:32) Mm -hmm.   Right.   Naomi (14:44) sure I wanted to be a mum and I was so ready and I couldn't understand how my husband and I when we were newly married   We had like our home, like we were all ready to go and it wasn't happening for us. And I couldn't understand why like babies were being sent to other couples who, or you know, single men who weren't ready and didn't actually even want a baby. That was so confusing to me. And so then people saying to me, it's like, stop wanting it so much, like just stay positive and stick a smile on. And when I started researching into more, it's actually really, it can be really negative for you.   to try and remain positive all the time, because we're not designed to stay positive all the time. We're actually hardwired to notice the negative more than the positive to keep us safe. we're literally like primed like the whole time checking. And then if you take that, and it's also where like, we shouldn't really call any emotions negative. If we feel emotions that feel uncomfortable in the body that we label as negative.   we like shove them down and we're like, I don't want to feel like I don't want to feel. And so we try and numb out, scroll on our phones, like, you know, drinking, partaking in habits, like watching TV that we don't really want to watch, like all these things or comfort eating, things to kind of numb out these feelings and we shove them down. And all that happens is they build and they build and they build. At some point they'll come out. For me, it's panic attacks. For other people, it can be like a burst of rage or it can be just like bursting into tears in a meeting.   because there hasn't been an outlet to feel, experience, embrace those emotions that you're feeling. And once you start doing that, I can feel petrifying because so many of us, since we were like small children, you fall over, you cry, and you're told, you're okay. Don't cry. Stop crying. Here, lolly or here, have a toy. Here, be distracted. Swallow that pain down. No, we don't want to see it. That's not welcome here. And so when we start,   Michelle (16:30) Right.   Naomi (16:41) And a lot of the time the emotions we have, yeah, you're like, it's not okay for me. You know, I shouldn't cry, especially if it's like, if you're like really probably ugly cry like, you know, and you're like, like.   Michelle (16:42) It's that judgment. You feel that judgment.   I between. I only have an ugly cry. I almost wish I was one of those people that just like has a straight face and a beautiful tear. Nope.   Naomi (16:56) I guess you see my... little tear.   It's so raw and it's so animal. We're not used to allowing ourselves to really express ourselves in that way. And this is why I love emotional freedom technique, that you're literally using a technique that says, I embrace and accept all of this stuff. It's uncomfortable and I don't want it, but it's part of me, therefore I accept it. And as soon as we accept something, the resistance to it lessens. And then we're like, maybe that isn't as...   Michelle (17:24) Yeah.   Naomi (17:31) awful as I thought it was going to be and you can just sit with things a little bit. I've gone from a complete to a complete, but yes, so with toxic positivity, you're kind of basically going like, I'm fine. Everything is fine. Even, literally even women who've like had a miscarriage haven't told anyone, still gone into work, done these massive presentations and they're like.   Michelle (17:33) Yeah.   Yeah, keep that smile on your face.   Naomi (17:54) and then they wonder where they get home that night, go completely batshit crazy out their partner and have a full down meltdown and it's like it had to come out at some point and you've let it build and build and build instead of giving yourself the time and space to go I'm gonna sit and I'm gonna feel this now.   Michelle (18:14) Yeah, it's so important. And I've really like, I love the book, The Untethered Soul. He talks a lot about leaning into those uncomfortable emotions, because our knee jerk reaction is to stop anything that doesn't feel comfortable or good. And that is where the blocks happen. Because what we're doing is we're not actually removing it. We're actually keeping it in place by like not allowing it to process and to, I feel like it's like   emotions. You have to almost digest it so that it can go through and be processed because it's important to do that. But I love that book because he describes it in such a clear and easy to understand way on how you lean into it. Basically, you just sit with   Naomi (18:48) Yes.   Michelle (19:07) So it's not this internal denial of emotions. what's the science -backed positive psychology that you were referring to?   Naomi (19:17) Yeah, so a lot of my work, so my training is in cognitive hypnotherapy and everything, the training I'm in was like look at those studies, look at, you know, what's the evidence behind this? So we can obviously experience these techniques ourselves, see what many clients and seen the shift, seen the transformations that happen when they use these techniques and we do this work.   but I love going to the studies as well to really back up and go, because so many people are still like, that's really woo woo, that's really like out there. And I'm like, we've got studies. So some of them, to share through the negative ones to start with, are that women undergoing infertility treatment experience the same level of stress, anxiety and depression as women who have cancer, HIV or heart disease.   Michelle (19:51) Mm -hmm.   love it.   Naomi (20:09) So this is a real serious thing. This isn't like, I'm a little bit stressed because I can't have a baby. This is like massive, huge stress caused by the fertility treatment. So however stressed you were in life before this point, the treatment itself is adding to it. So in the post -traumatic stress disorder can develop in a third of women after miscarriage or eptopic pregnancy.   Michelle (20:14) Mm -hmm.   Naomi (20:34) and women who've experienced at least one unsuccessful IVF cycle and had depressive symptoms before continuing treatment experience the lowest success rate, which is probably one of the most depressing statistics I've ever had. You've had treatment to help you have a baby, it hasn't worked, and then if you start getting depressed about it, the next treatment has a lower chance of success. It's just such a depressing statistic.   Michelle (20:47) Mm -hmm.   Naomi (21:03) So of every statistic, I'm like, well, let's find the flip side of that. So that's a percentage of people. This study is saying this. Of every study, I like to find the flip side that backs up what that's saying, but with the positive or the opposite information. So that's where we come to things like using mindfulness is effective in reducing anxiety in women going through infertility by 76%.   Michelle (21:06) Mm -hmm.   Naomi (21:32) and reducing depression by 46%. Using hypnosis during embryo transfer can significantly improve IVF success rates and implantation rates. Depression, anxiety and stress among couples using emotional freedom technique was significantly less than those not using it. And the studies that show by practicing mind body techniques, you can actually double your chances of pregnancy success.   And they've shown that women going through the mind body studies at the IVF Boston Clinic, we're just having a better success rate within the six months that followed of them practicing these techniques. So this is kind of a slow burn. These aren't like, meditate for a day. You're going to get pregnant. This is more like, this is a lifestyle choice that I'm then implementing. I'm making this part of my, my life for the next few months. And then you're going to be improving your   Michelle (22:17) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Naomi (22:29) chances and I've done a little, let me show you that. So these are the things that mind body techniques decrease are anxiety, depression, stress, anger, worry, jealousy and fear. And it improves quality of life, your relationship with others and yourself, resilience, hope and pregnancy success rates. So it's very much like the pregnancy success rates always say is like the cherry on the top. All the other things are like, that's what we want to be focused on. We're getting you happy.   managing stress, getting you to feel really good. And then a pregnancy is like, yay, that's the extra bit, but we're doing this for you and your wellbeing.   It's like getting you feeling good, improving your quality of life during this time allows you to then be making decisions from a place of confidence, calm confidence, rather than a place of fear. Like I felt like I kept going into treatment because I was being told that was the only option for me, that that was the best option for me. And for the first...   three rounds of treatment I did, I was so stressed, I hated it. And it was just so, so hard. And then I started practicing these techniques. So the fourth round of treatment I did was a breeze and so, so different from the three before. Then I got pregnant naturally anyway. So it's like, but it's having these techniques that made what I was going through, it just felt completely different on that fourth round.   Michelle (23:42) Mm -hmm.   Yes. And also, I don't know if you've heard of the study about laughter therapy after transfers improves the chances of pregnancy mean, that's pretty wild, like that endorphins and laughter and being in this kind of state that's elevated could really impact that ability for it to stick. And then I suggest for people to do it really throughout the IVF, like just...   Watch comedies. Don't watch anything too heavy. Lift your emotions I'm like a huge fan of Dr. Joe Dispenza's work and I've been going to   and he talks a lot about the studies and really the two main things that they deduce from everything, from the techniques that he does, the two big things are your thoughts and your emotions.   So it's not just your thoughts. This is kind of like the emotions are sort of like that magic ingredients that activates the thoughts. That's why some people have a hard time with just doing affirmations because when you're just thinking or saying the same thing over without any emotion tied, then it's not as effective. So having a heightened state of emotion is what really impacts a lot of what happens in our bodies and how our bodies respond.   people really overcoming major, major diseases that they are told by the experts cannot be overcome because that is working through that material world versus the quantum, which is really where our minds, the worlds of our minds, that is the thing that we can access that we can't access through the material world. Yes, we could try to do things. We can...   take things out and do the surgery and do all the physical things that we need that take a little longer and are more dense. It's a more dense approach, not to say that it shouldn't exist. But then there's the other non -dense approach, which is the mind and coming to that place where you're able to shift things in a different level. Just like you said with meditation, you want more time, meditate longer. That's because you're going to a place where you're able to, I believe,   make magic and so elevating that emotion and now we know really with studies like the heart math, I'm sure you've looked into that, right? Heart math and how our hearts and brains have a coherence. Well, Chinese medicine has been saying that for thousands of years and then we know that the heart impacts the uterus. So having that heart and now we're seeing it in studies. I mean, all the things that you're listing are pretty much   pointing in that direction, how we feel in our life, how we feel in our world. And I think the biggest thing that you said that was just so spot on is that you can actually feel good while going through these things. Like that is the biggest like, my God, because I think that a lot of people don't really realize it. This is why I want to repeat that again, because you can feel good. You could thrive.   Naomi (27:02) Yeah.   Michelle (27:05) while you're going through this journey.   Naomi (27:08) I remember that like once I'm actually crying like tears of joy and still trying to conceive I kind of remember what happened it was something like really small thing like I think I was just sat in the park and the sun was saying and it was so beautiful and I just sat and I just had a little cry but of joy and I don't think I'd ever cried from from joy before and it kind of was like wow that this feels   so powerful, I'm so overcome with positive emotion right now that I'm having this massive physical reaction to it. And I was just like, that's pretty special. That's pretty special that I'm now so open and I've managed to clear all of, because before I used to have this ongoing repetitive thought of like, what if you never get pregnant? What if the endometriosis just gets worse and then...   you have to have a hysterectomy and then that's it. Like, you know, it's like the thoughts were just this, they're like churning, churning. I'd like to wake up in the morning and my thoughts would just, would just be like attacking me. And it was then when I learned it's like my thoughts aren't deliberately doing this to make me feel really ill. They're doing it because they're trying to protect me what my, my inner self is. So do quite a lot of parts work with hypnotherapy. So the part of me that was petrified that I never get to be a mom. So it was telling me all these thoughts and telling me like,   Michelle (28:15) Mm -hmm.   Naomi (28:33) Get on it, do more treatment, like do more acupuncture, do more herbs, do all the things, do it all today. You need to think. And then the part of me that was like, it's gonna be okay, like I can walk this path, I can do what I need to do to support myself. It's gonna be okay. And when I could get myself into this place, I could see things like the sunset and I could be touched by that instead of being so blocked off by the light, the fear and the worry and the just.   Michelle (28:57) Mm -hmm.   Naomi (29:03) what if never and everyone else has that and I'm getting left behind and how does that, how do I traverse that? And it's like just bringing yourself totally back into the present moment and being like, and sometimes that's so hard. Like meditation for me was almost impossible to start because I just sit there and my mind would be like, yay, you're really listening now. Let's give you everything. And like only just so much.   Michelle (29:08) Mm -hmm.   Yeah.   All the fears.   Naomi (29:29) yeah, all that stuff. So emotional freedom technique for me was amazing because I remember saying that intention. I think we were about a year into trying to conceive and I set the intention that what I wanted was a way to turn off my mind. I was like, I'm going to be able to turn off my mind. I just want to press a mute button and just have my thoughts be quiet. And meditation didn't work for me like that. Like so many people are like, we just learned to meditate. That just didn't happen. It just, my thoughts got louder. Whereas with EFT,   because I had a process and a way to work through the thoughts. I remember the first time I had a kind of blank mind of just quietness and I was like...   Michelle (30:02) Hmm.   Ha ha.   Naomi (30:09) too far away from what I was capable of at the time.   Michelle (30:13) So that's interesting. That's actually really good information because I know a lot of people have a hard time with meditation. Although I do think you could get there through meditation, it is a little bit more torture. Like if you don't do other things. So I think that that's a really good thing for people to hear is maybe to look into emotional freedom technique as a sort of in -between to get you from point A to point Z. So you're able to really get in there and feel more peace while you're meditating.   Naomi (30:27) Yeah.   Yeah, to support the work you're doing alongside. Yeah.   Michelle (30:44) quick question just for don't really know as much about hypnotherapy, like why is it so powerful?   what are the things, because I know because I'm trained, but like the subconscious mind, talk about like the beliefs that are in there that are so like lodged into the makeup of our being that they almost take over our free will and talk about why it's so important to have those types of therapies to shift those really ingrained beliefs.   Naomi (31:20) Yeah, so I think for me, like to set it with a story. So for me, because I've been diagnosed with endometriosis and that was due to incredibly painful periods, the beliefs I had that I just wasn't aware of were my body is broken. You know, I have endometriosis, therefore, like I had this, even though logically and on the surface I could say, I'm not gonna need treatment. You know, we're just gonna have our babies naturally.   I think I was really holding that belief of like, you know, a doctor, person in authority had told, so, you know, like a man in his like fifties had told 19 year old me, you're probably gonna need IVF to have babies. Like, you know, buckle up, that's probably what's gonna happen. And I'd like taken that on as a belief. And so for me, it was working through, and I didn't trust my body because of the endometriosis and because of the pain I'd experienced, I could only link like,   pregnancy and birth with a lot of pain because people had said to me, giving birth is like, you know, period pain, but like a thousand times worse. Whereas because I had period pain that had meant, you know, I'd nearly passed out from the pain that I'd nearly rang, you know, an ambulance to come and collect me because I collapsed on a walk. So in my head, I was like, that's period pain. Birth is worse than that? God. Whereas then now I've given birth twice. One birth was pain free. One birth was   Michelle (32:22) Mm -hmm.   Naomi (32:44) painful but only for 15 minutes because she came in such a rush and birthed herself, I was in labor for 40 minutes. I now know the people that said, you know, labor was like pain, but worse. One probably hadn't practiced hypnobirthing and weren't like prepared for what their body was going to do, but also probably had like little tiny cramps that were like, little thing, not like massive endometriosis cramps. So for me, it was unpicking all these beliefs of what, what   Michelle (32:59) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Naomi (33:12) my body meant like what my fertility meant and they can be like yeah like you said like deep inside that we're not even aware of but they impact the way we think the decisions we make the behaviors we have and so for me like whenever it was my period i was so used to just taking painkillers pushing on through my cycle ended up flying from london to glasgow and back for a one -hour meeting on the first day of my cycle and i haven't made traces and we were trying to   trying for a baby. So I was obviously massively disappointed that I wasn't pregnant, had horrific cramps, took a load of painkillers, got on this plane and I got home at, you know, like nine o 'clock at night that evening. And I was just like, what am I doing? Like I'm just pushing, pushing, pushing myself for my job. Like why on earth didn't I just say I can't fly up that week?   Obviously, you know, I didn't feel in a position at the time to go, I'm probably going to be getting my period then. But it's like, I should have, you know, it's like now, if I was in that position, I would be like, I have endometriosis, that's not gonna, that's not gonna work for me. That's not, I can't, I can't basically. Physically, I'm not gonna be able to do that. It's gonna need to be shifted. Although saying that, I wouldn't say that now because now, now I don't have really painful periods because I've dealt with all the things with my period. So that's something to say as well. It's like,   Michelle (34:06) Yeah.   Naomi (34:35) I just accepted that I would always have incredibly painful periods. And then when I worked with an acupuncturist, when I worked through the beliefs I had about my body and about pain and about rest, I was then having pain -freeperiods. The point I would like get my period and I'd literally be like, whoa, what's that? because I had no cramps, I'd had no buildups. I literally be like shocked when I saw red, because I'd just be like, I wasn't,   Michelle (34:39) Hmm.   Mm -hmm.   great.   Naomi (35:02) Yeah, it was such a different experience. So we need to, if you can really get to inside, and this is the joy of hypnotherapy, that we can access the subconscious mind in a really safe way and be like, what's in here? What are the things that are not serving you? What are the beliefs that we can choose to let go of and choose to install new beliefs? So in the latest trauma training I've done over the last couple of years,   I'm actually taking the beliefs you have, removing them and installing new beliefs. And that like absolutely fascinates me. And in the space of two weeks, clients being like, this is how I feel. This is what I believe. This is what I'd like to believe, but that's complete BS. Not a chance. I don't believe it. And then we do the work and by the end of the two weeks, and then they're kind of like, yep, I am like, yep, that's my new belief. That's new way of.   thinking, feeling, experiencing the world literally in new thought pans that then changes their behaviors, changes the way they make decisions about, you know, not just their fertility, but their relationships, their work, their health, all these areas. And it seems so, it seems so simple to me because I'm in this work all the time, but obviously people are really like, my God, like this is huge. Like I don't, I used to believe this and I believe this. my God. And I'm like.   Of course. And it's like, and they're like, it's massive. Like one client said it was Superman, like supercharged, these thoughts and like just like completely defeating Luke.   Michelle (36:31) amazing.   Naomi (36:41) Lex Luthor when she never thought that would be possible whatsoever and just changing that just being like God   Michelle (36:46) Yeah, I love that. Because, you know, thoughts give power and then they can also take away power depending on the thought. And also when you talked about like an older man, an authority figure, you know, how you said your experience was with your doctor. Keep in mind when you're trained in hypnotherapy, they talk about that.   They talk about one of the things that can hypnotize people. is because when you see somebody as this authority figure and you view them in this high regard, which we do a lot of times with   behind their names or after their names, then we could give them our power and allow whatever they're saying to have absolute authority over us. And that could be in a sense,   hypno session right there,   Naomi (37:39) Yeah, and yeah, it's like you need to be, I think, love the work we do. We're not hypnotizing people, we're de -hypnotizing them. And we're bringing you back out of the trance state that you've been living in, like especially around birth. And we still set up society, society's just set up to basically tell us birth is to be feared, birth is painful, birth is all these things. That's not true. And so we can...   Michelle (37:46) Yeah, my God, I love that. Yes.   Yeah.   Yeah.   Naomi (38:06) de -hypnotize ourselves   Michelle (38:08) I love how you put that because it is, it's kind of like waking up, becoming more conscious in our life, becoming more conscious of our power and what we really can do for ourselves. And I think that that's, that's the biggest thing. I really feel very passionate about it because I myself have had times where   I felt completely powerless in my life and I believed a lot of things about myself and my body. And so I think that when you come out of that, you're like, everybody needs to know this. Like everybody needs to know, you know? And I think we have that in common.   Naomi (38:43) I think that's what's so exciting because I work with so many women that are like, my doctor's told me this, as if it's a fact. And I'm like, have you got a second opinion? And they're just like, well, no, but they work on Harley Street and they're top of their game. And I was like, you might want to get a second opinion on that. Then they go and get a second opinion. And they're like, no, they've told me, actually, that my results don't mean that at all. And I'm like, hmm, hmm.   Michelle (38:54) Exactly. third opinion.   There you go. Yep.   Naomi (39:11) Because when you work with so many women in this field and people have very similar stories and like medical backgrounds, for example, and so you can be like, well, this person was told this and now this person is being told this, like, let's just not take that as, you know, that is what is. Especially when it comes to age or medical conditions like endometriosis, PCOS.   Michelle (39:19) Yes.   you   Naomi (39:37) there was some doctors that very fixed in this then means this. And it's like from, you know, my case on paper, I wasn't supposed to get pregnant naturally twice, but I did. They can't explain it. There wasn't anything medically different. But it's like, it happened when it happened and then it happened again. So it's like, why was that?   Michelle (39:42) Bye.   Right? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Exactly.   But so first of all, I can keep talking to you for hours. I think that we have a lot in common. We are very into, the power of our minds and empowerment and really kind of like setting people up for empowerment. So for people listening to this, I'm sure a lot of people are really fascinated by everything that you're sharing. How can people find   Naomi (40:24) Yeah, so the best place to find me is on Instagram. That's where I hang out, have a lot of fun on Instagram. So just embrace fertility. My website is embracefatility .co .uk because I'm based in England and my podcast is basically embrace fertility everywhere. I run a 12 week course, the embrace fertility method, sharing the techniques and some of the techniques I've been talking about today. So emotional freedom technique.   mindfulness, CBT, hypnotherapy. And then I also work with clients one to one for a minimum of 12 weeks support. So everyone that works for me does the Embrace Fertility Method and then can add those sessions on. And yeah, just come say hi on Instagram.   Michelle (41:10) Awesome. Naomi, I love talking to you and I'm so happy we connected and thank you so much for coming on today.   Naomi (41:20) Thank you for having me, it's been fun.  

In today's episode, I'll be discussing different methods to track your fertile window, highlighting the pros and cons of each.    We'll explore: Smartphone apps for tracking cycles Ovulation predictor kits (OPKs) The fertility awareness method Basal body temperature tracking Cervical mucus observation Wearable fertility trackers Hormonal urine tests   By the end of this episode, you'll have a clearer understanding of how to accurately determine your fertile window and optimize your chances of conception.    If you'd like discount codes to Mira and other helpful fertility resources, you can visit: https://www.thewholesomelotusfertility.com/fertilityresources   Check out Michelle's latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility Follow Michelle on Instagram @thewholesomelotusfertility  Facebook https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ for more tips and updates. For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/     Transcript:   fertility window [00:00:00] On today's episode, I'm going to talk about different methods that you can use to track your fertile window, which ones are good and the pros and cons of all of them, because I know that this is actually a very common question. And a lot of times I actually see patients, when I first see them, we find out that they weren't really having sex at the right time. So they were waiting too late or they weren't tracking as well, or they thought that it was exactly a certain time and they didn't have it any other time. So I do find that a lot of people get confused exactly as to how to track their fertile window, when they should have sex. And I think that one of the biggest reasons why people get confused is because of the movies, those comedies and shows that we've seen. They make it seem like it's like within an hour, that's the time to have sex and you got to go and let's go. So, I am going to talk about different ways that you can track your [00:01:00] cycle and the pros and cons for each. So the first thing that I'm going to go over is Over is smartphone apps. So just apps basically tracking your cycle and you can find lots of those people use like low or flow. You can find tons. The list goes on and yes, even though by themselves. They are not the most effective thing. You can use them as a tool to help you track your cycle. And what I love about them is that it is like a really nice app and it makes it easy to put information down and store information, but like anything, it really depends on the type of information you put in, how detailed it is, and also not relying on its algorithm, because if you are only putting your, Time of your period and basically tracking the first day of each period it's going to automatically generate an algorithm Where [00:02:00] it guesses what your fertile window is now It's pretty obvious why that would be a problem because some people might ovulate early and other people might ovulate late So, how does this algorithm possibly know what's going on with your cycle? So that is basically where if you used a loan, it definitely does not give you enough information and enough data. And so I have seen many people, mistake their fertile window by just relying on the apps. So I do want to mention that the apps are great, but it just all depends on the kind of information you put in there. and how you use it. So it could be a great tool, just really depending on how it's used and also not being used solely as the only way you can find your fertile window. So the second way that people use, and I say people, because it's not necessarily what I recommend, although again, if it's used in [00:03:00] conjunction with other things, it can be a good tool. And that is ovulation predictor kits. So basically you can find them At drugstores and grocery stores, you can find them really everywhere and you'll find things like clear blue digital ovulation tests, first response ovulation tests, many different ovulation tests out there. And what they do is they will only measure one hormone and that is luteinizing hormone. What luteinizing hormone is, is it's a hormone that gets released from your pituitary gland in your brain. And what that does is it basically your brain has its own pulse and cycles, and when it releases that, LH, which is luteinizing hormone. It signals the ovaries to ovulate. The problem is, is that these ovulation predicting kits are only showing the prediction based on the [00:04:00] brain. And the hormone that's released by the pituitary in the brain, but that doesn't tell you whether the ovaries responded or not. So it really doesn't confirm ovulation, but it does give you an idea of when your brain is trying to signal for the body to ovulate. where that could be an incredible tool is if you already have confirmed other ways that you are in fact ovulating every single month. So most likely if you already confirmed that you're ovulating, it's a great extra tool to get an idea of when you're moving towards that direction, get an idea within that month that your body is trying again. So since you already confirmed it and you see that you have a rhythm and a pretty normal cycle. So then you can use it as a tool, but again, this is not something that I would recommend using alone because it just doesn't give you the kind of information that you want to know and it doesn't really confirm ovulation and it doesn't confirm it with other[00:05:00] hormones. So the third method, which is, it's really a couple of methods within one method, which goes under the fertility awareness method, although that is one style and it's a specific method of looking at the body. But in general,  It pretty much teaches ways to understand and read your body and your reproductive health and your cycle and to understand what's happening based on a couple of different measurements. , so the measurements used are, a lot of them are based on different tracking apps. So it's similar to what we talked about before, but Kendara Ovia fertility and Daisy, and then a lot of these have thermometers that actually come with them and they sync up with a phone. So it makes it a little easier. It's just one less step to basically taking your temperature in the morning. And having to put it into the phone. So this does it automatically for you. , so according to this [00:06:00] method, there are many different ways that you could look at your body. recognize if you're within the fertile window, the first method of really understanding your full cycle. And I recommend doing this at least a couple of times or a couple of months, meaning so a couple of cycles is tracking your basal body temperature. And you can do that with a basal body thermometer. You don't necessarily have to have one that's Bluetooth and that connects to the app. Not necessarily. You could use the app just to input information and data. And that is where the app can be very helpful because you're putting the information in there. And then you start to understand more or less what that big picture of your menstrual cycle looks like within a month.   There are definitely conditions that make the measurement more accurate. And one of them is sleeping for at least three hours before you check your temperature. And you cannot check your temperature in the morning after you [00:07:00] get out of the bed. So you can't get out of bed before you check your temperature. So the first thing you do in the morning, you wake up, and hopefully you were sleeping at least three hours before you checked, and you didn't get up to go to the bathroom within that three hour time. and hopefully you also wake up around the same exact time. However, I suggest not to let that discourage you. If you don't wake up exactly the same time, don't let that discourage you because you're still going to get a lot of good data. It may not be as accurate. And so with this, I want to say that there are certain things that are ideal, but they're not absolutely necessary. It's not absolutely something that you need to do. So one of the things that would be ideal is that you'd wake up around the same time every morning. Another thing that would be ideal is that you were sleeping for three hours. Now if you happen to wake up and go to the pee and then came back, I don't know, an hour, hour and a half before, [00:08:00] don't let that stop you. because it's still going to give you some data. So it's really progress over perfection. And you know, you don't want to like be paralyzed by the perfection, have everything perfectly or nothing, because that's going to stop you from really tracking.  So ideally, Besides the three hours before you wake up, besides having it exactly the same time every day, you also want to, and I say this ideally because it's not an absolute must, but you also want to keep the thermometer. It's a digital thermometer in your mouth for five to 10 minutes before you actually turn it on, because that is going to give you again, a really, really good accurate read. So those are the big guidelines and that's going to help you to really get a good picture on what's happening in your body. And typically you're going to want the first part of the cycle, which is the follicular phase. And that is day one of your menstrual cycle. That's your first [00:09:00] day of your full bleed until the day of ovulation. That is considered your follicular phase when the follicle grows and is preparing itself to release the egg and ovulate. The second part of your menstrual cycle is the time of ovulation until the first day of your next cycle, or it just keeps going if there's pregnancy. And that is called your luteal phase. So the luteal phase should be about 98 degrees. So you'll find that it's going to go from the follicular phase being like 97. And it's going to be like 97. 1, 97. 3, 97. 2, 97. 5. You know, it might go up and down a bunch of times, but it's going to stay generally speaking around 97. The luteal phase after ovulation will increase and it increases. It's a little bit more of a yang time. Well, the first part, which is the follicular [00:10:00] phase is more yin and more cooling. The second part, which is the luteal phase is going to be around 98 degrees. If you see that your period is late and you continue being 98 degrees and it doesn't go lower, there is a good chance that there's pregnancy. If that is unusual for you. And this is why I. I highly suggest looking into tracking for a couple of months because once you do that, even though it can be a little bit more work, it's going to give you so much information and you're going to be kind of like your own little experiment to, looking into your own rhythm and how your body is processing, whether it's moving and pulsing in a regular rhythm or it's irregular and something is a little off. So it's going to give you a lot of insight on what's going on. And it's also going to give you an idea of generally speaking, especially if you are regular, when you're ovulating. So you might ovulate a little early or a little late, [00:11:00] but you'll really get familiar on your exact cycle. If you do this for a couple of months, another thing that can help you know if you're within that fertile window is cervical mucus. So the fertility awareness method, they teach a lot about for a cervical mucus and it'll shift and change really. And there's peak cervical mucus that happens around your ovulation  that is the egg white consistency that everybody talks about. So before that you'll still have mucus, but it's not going to look quite as slippery. So it starts out a little bit more like lotiony and then it starts to get more and more moist around that time. I would definitely highly suggest drinking water because it is pretty much a lot of it is made up of water. And it need, you need a lot of water and hydration in order for your body to produce more cervical mucus. So that is like kind of one little trick that people don't realize is that it's important to be hydrated [00:12:00] during your ovulation. It is a very yin time. This is when you have all the cervical mucus and lots of fluids. So yin is all about moisture and it's all about fluid. So you want to help your body out. So not just drinking to hydrate, but you can also eat foods that have water. So lots of vegetables that retain water because your body's actually able to really hydrate when you have food that has water. So if you don't have food that has water and it's too dry, your body will need more water. It's much easier if you have that hydration also from food. Other fertility signs that they look at or, fertile window signs are position of your cervix and feeling whether it is soft or firm. So you can actually put your fingers and feel your cervix. But I remember when I first heard it, I was like, what? So I tried it and it was really fascinating because you do feel around the time [00:13:00] of ovulation or when you're fertile, it feels soft. It feels like lips. And when you're not in your fertile window, it feels like the tip of your nose. So you feel almost, more like a, like a hard plastic. Now that is totally optional. Some people prefer not to do this and some people want to really look into everything. I think it's a good thing to try just so that you could really understand your body and then you could really feel the difference because it's pretty fascinating  the contrast between the times that you are fertile and when your body's not in that fertile cycle. So the pros are, I personally believe that, this method can give you a lot of insight and it really does confirm your ovulation because you can see it in the temperature and the temperature needs to be consistently elevated and then you know that you're definitely in the luteal phase and that you have in fact, ovulated. So it does give [00:14:00] you a little bit more detailed information. It is something that also can tell you whether your temperature is off. If you're too cool. Which is something that a lot of times if you're seeing an acupuncturist, we can help because we can increase yang energy in a person's body. Also, if you have a short luteal phase, which is pretty common, we can increase young herbs, you know, give herbals. to increase that. So it really depends. Obviously, if you have a short luteal phase, it's not necessarily always yang deficiency. So it is something though that we can take a look at and really get an idea of what your body would need in order to regulate your menstrual cycle. So I find this method to be great, not just for seeing what's going on, but also in working with other people, especially people who are familiar with it, like many acupuncturists or maybe even functional medicine doctors or naturopathic doctors. And the [00:15:00] cons would be that it is a strict method and it takes a little bit more time and you have to be really consistent. , it's not as bad as it originally feels like in the beginning because I consider it like brushing your teeth. You brush your teeth, you don't think twice and it's just a habit. So it could be something that you'll eventually just do effortlessly. In the beginning it might take a little more time and a little bit more intention in your day. but over time it gets a lot easier. So some people look at this and they think it is way too stressful and it's not worth it. It really depends on you. I always suggest, try it out one month, two months. If it's so stressful that you're just like, I can't, then it's not worth it. And other ways to do this is a wearable fertility trackers. So they have these bracelets or armbands. Many different companies do this and what they do is they basically monitor [00:16:00] your skin temperature and some of them even monitor your heart rate and there are many benefits to it because they require very little effort on your part. All they do is they basically track you and in the morning they connect with the app. and they record all of that. So there's not a lot to do with that. The only thing is, is that they do tend to get expensive and so that's something to consider. And some people complain that they feel uncomfortable. I've had some patients that use the aura ring and they love it and that could also be used for, monitoring your fertile window. So that's an option. So there's also something called obvious sense, which personally, not the biggest fan of, you have to keep it in your vagina all night and it might be really uncomfortable. , plus I just, I don't know, I don't know if it has radiation. You don't want to put that up there. I know with [00:17:00] other trackers,  it measures, and then it will only emit radiation when it's connecting with the phone, but I just, I don't know. This one specific way or method just doesn't seem like it would be comfortable for me, so that's my opinion about it. And it's also something that is expensive as well. And There are hormonal urine tests that you can take Monthly, so one example, which I love and I will be putting this in the episode notes  I have a link to a discount is with Mira and Mira is a device that basically measures urinary progesterone The LH, which is what you'll find with OPK kits, but it also measures urinary progesterone, which you'll measure in your luteal phase as well as estrogen metabolites. And it has a 99 percent accuracy. And so you pee on a stick and it measures it throughout the cycle and it connects with the [00:18:00] app and then it gives you a really pretty chart and you can share that with the people that you're working with, any practitioners. I have a lot of people, a lot of my patients showing it to me or people that I work with online. So I love the fact that it measures multiple hormone levels and gives you a really nice picture of what's happening. It also can predict fertile days based on your normal, , rhythm, and then it also can confirm ovulation. So you want to make sure that you actually did in fact ovulate and by measuring urinary progesterone, you are getting that confirmation. So I guess the con would be that it is expensive and you will need to buy multiple refills. So it can be expensive and continuously expensive. So that's one of the drawbacks. I personally love it because it gives you a really nice picture and it is something that you can really measure hormonally, what's going on and get a map [00:19:00] throughout your cycle. And if you do that for at least a couple of cycles, that's another thing that can really give you a lot of information. Other hormonal tests are. Inito and then you can also look into something called Proov or Oova and they do pretty much the same so you can look at all of those and just really get an idea of the pros and cons. , so those are the different methods that you can do. The ones that I recommend personally, if you really want to get an idea of what's going on with your body and really optimize the fertile window is to really do, I think, a little bit of all of them. But the ones that I would say do not miss  is the method where you do your BBT charting and you really start to look at your cervical mucus and really understand your body. I definitely highly recommend doing that for at least a month or two. And if you don't like doing that, Then I definitely suggest either the wearable fertility [00:20:00] trackers or the urine hormone tests. But the ones that are more than just the LH, the ones that are like Mira, Inito, Proov or Oova where you can track progesterone metabolites and other hormones to see what's happening and get a clearer picture of your overall cycle. And then, of course, having somewhere where you can record your information and input your data, but not relying on the algorithm. And also, the LH is great, but it's much better if it's in combination with other hormones as well. So if there are any other questions that pop up in your mind as you're listening to this, I am so open to coming up with lots of different ideas for podcasts. If there are questions that I haven't really addressed that you're wondering, you can always reach out to me on my Instagram. And my handle is at thewholesomelotusfertility. You can DM me. for listening. [00:21:00] And I would love to hear from you. If you have any questions, I can always consider that for a future episode.   So thank you so much for tuning in today and I hope you have a beautiful day.

In this episode, I will discuss the question, "Is it normal for relationships to change on the fertility journey?" Navigating the fertility journey often brings significant changes to relationships, especially between partners. The emotional and physical strain of frequent doctor visits, unexpected news, and the frustration of unanswered questions can be overwhelming. Men and women often process grief and stress differently, which can lead to misunderstandings and feelings of isolation. Many couples choose to keep their struggles private, adding to the challenge. This journey not only affects the primary relationship but also extends to interactions with family and friends. Understanding and patience become crucial as partners try to support each other through a deeply personal and often isolating experience.   Takeaways:   Fertility challenges can significantly disrupt life and cause emotional strain. Partners may process grief and stress differently, leading to misunderstandings. Many couples choose to keep their struggles private, adding to isolation. Sharing experiences with a supportive community can be healing. Fertility challenges can put pressure on intimacy, turning it into a task. Effective communication helps in understanding each other's perspectives. Family and friends may unintentionally add stress with insensitive questions. Setting boundaries with well-meaning but uninformed loved ones is important. Couples therapy can be beneficial even if the relationship isn't in crisis. Recognizing that relationship changes during fertility challenges are normal. It is okay to decline emotionally taxing events like baby showers.   Check out Michelle's latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility Follow Michelle on Instagram @thewholesomelotusfertility  Facebook https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ for more tips and updates. For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/     Transcript:   [00:00:00] On today's episode of, is this normal? We are going to be talking about. relationship changes when you're on the fertility journey. And this is actually something very common that I see with lots of people that I work with, and it can be really confusing. And so I wanted to address topics that people come to me about and really reiterate the fact that yes, this is normal. This is actually very common for relationships to shift when people are on On the fertility journey, and then, of course, I'm going to give some tips and some things that you can do in order to make that a little bit easier. So, although I don't love this word, the I word, the infertility diagnosis has been compared to a cancer diagnosis, when couples are going through this really difficult journey of fertility challenges, it can really throw a person's life upside[00:01:00] down. And I'm sure if you're listening to this podcast, most likely you are on the fertility journey yourself and completely understand what that is like from the inside out.  It can be disruptive in the sense that you have to stop what you're doing and go to a bunch of doctor's visits and then get news that you weren't really expecting to hear, and then sometimes get the news that there is no known understanding for why things are happening, which could be very frustrating, confusing. And so basically it can really throw the reality of your life  and what you expected for your future with your partner completely upside down. Not to mention the challenges for same sex couples, I mean there's so many different factors or uncovering that you have possibly other underlying health concerns or conditions that you weren't aware of before. Or  so many couples go through this [00:02:00] by themselves. Many people do not feel comfortable sharing their experience and sharing the fact that they're trying because quite frankly it's nobody's business and it is something that you're going through on your own. So it's very personal. It's a personal thing and Many times it includes losses, pregnancy losses that people are not aware of. So then you have these different rings of relationships. So of course the most important relationship really ultimately is between you and your partner. And then you have other people in your life that are outside of that circle. Meaning the next circle, the next ring would be your family that you grew up Extended family and then outside of that is friends or people that you're close with So you have lots of different people in your life That you are related to and connect with and not [00:03:00] everybody is going to know what you are going through So it could be very challenging to go through something very difficult privately. The first relationship I'm going to talk about is really the relationship between you and your partner. And this is definitely something that I hear often being addressed and talked about with my patients and my clients, because it is something that a lot of people don't realize. That everybody deals with grief and everybody deals with fertility challenges differently. I even see many of my patients, every single one of them is dealing with them a little differently. Of course it is something that is causing anxiety and fear. This seems to be across the board. But everybody responds differently to what they're faced with. And then the same goes with couples. And the same goes with, especially, How women tend to face it versus men. And [00:04:00] I know we like to generalize, but there is a difference in a lot of the couples that I speak to and how they perceive and approach the fertility journey. Sometimes women will be a lot more emotional and they'll feel things deeper and more primal. And then sometimes the men will work and not really deal with emotions even though they are having emotions. And so it seems like to a lot of my women patients, That have talked to me and I'm kind of like the sounding board so I do know what's going on behind the scenes and They share with me that sometimes they don't feel like they're being supported enough or they will be doing everything by the book Doing all the supplements really changing everything going to the doctors doing all the tests And sometimes they won't feel the same from their partner. They'll try to get them to stop smoking marijuana or drinking alcohol or taking their supplements. [00:05:00] So there are many of those things that do happen quite often. Now, of course, I'm not a psychotherapist, but the reason I want to talk about this is because I do see a lot of couples and I do see a lot of patterns that tend to play out. So I did want to mention this in the podcast episode so that. when you are going through this, that you realize that you are not alone, that this is actually very common and very normal. And it is an extra weight of challenge that you are taking on in your life that you normally wouldn't have to, or normally wouldn't really account for in your life. So this is something that kind of, It comes out of left field for many people, and it could be very confusing. It could be very frustrating. Another thing that can happen besides the communication and besides really feeling like you're on the same page is the intimacy because there does feel like an added pressure to the intimacy. And [00:06:00] You have to have sex at a certain time. And all of a sudden, rather than having something that used to connect you, now it's something that has to be done and it becomes a means to an end, rather than the journey itself. I talk a lot about this. I talk about this also in my book, It really is important to sustain that connection with your partner. And by sustaining it, it means just really spending time. The more time you spend with the person that you're with, the more understanding you'll have. And what I mean by that is spending time doing things that you used to love doing and really nurturing the relationship in a way that for that moment, you're forgetting everything else. But you're really putting your attention towards. nurturing the relationship itself. I can't stress how important that is. And sometimes that means temporarily letting go of any frustrations that you have [00:07:00] with your partner because sometimes we can get into a cycle of blame or difficulties or not feeling heard. And I find that sometimes when we don't focus so much on fixing and instead focus on spending time together, that will create more sensitivity naturally and more compassion, empathy will grow because then nobody is on guard and aren't as defensive. So while it is important to communicate and sometimes even therapy can help. It's important to also remember the things that you love about each other and spend some quality time nurturing the relationship. What I find in general and what I found in my own relationship is that even if I'm frustrated about something, sometimes if I tackle it head on, it makes the person defensive and then nobody gets anywhere. And rather than doing that, spending a little more time hearing each other out, coming into it. With more [00:08:00]softness does tend to help something that I've also found with my patients and the people that I work with is that once they realize that. Men and women tend to process grief differently and also just different people in general, whether it doesn't matter if you're a male or female, tend to process things differently. Then they realize, coming from a perspective that they're having, that it doesn't have to necessarily be the same perspective. And that doesn't mean. That they're not processing the same amount of pain. It's just processed in a different way. And I think once people realize that, and I've had other therapists come on the podcast in the past and I've had conversations with them, and that's like a big thing that they talk about is just the way that people process things is different. When you realize that. That doesn't mean that they're feeling less than you, and that [00:09:00] doesn't mean that they're not feeling anything at all. It really makes a big difference and a shift in the way the couple communicates. So, it is important really, I mean, the big tip here is to spend some time together and create a dynamic where you are listening to each other and working together. And sometimes that means  for a moment, having less expectations and just spending more quality time and then creating that bond. Because when you create that bond, you're naturally going to communicate better. So holding hands, spending time together, getting gifts, Typically what happens is when people feel appreciated and loved on both sides, they're more apt to listen, they're more apt to hear, and it is important to communicate those feelings in a way that is So it is important to communicate for sure, and if it is something that you're going [00:10:00] through that's a little more heavy and like really, really difficult and you feel unheard, that is when I would say therapy would be a great option because although a lot of times couples think, Oh my God, if we're going through therapy, that means something is wrong. That's not necessarily the case at all. Therapy could be an incredibly useful tool for the couples, especially when they're going through the fertility journey, and sometimes insurance might even cover it. A lot of times if you're doing IVF treatments, they have people that they can recommend to help ease the process because it's known that this could be a very traumatic process. So I think one of the most important things is really realizing that this is not an easy thing to go through. And whenever you're going through something so huge in your life, it's going to impact relationships. So, other relationships that I wanted to discuss that I hear often about are relationships with [00:11:00]family members, or mothers in law, or the mothers, or sisters and brothers, and oftentimes, these are the big things that I hear. is that the couple simply does not want to talk about their personal life and they don't want to talk about their struggles trying to conceive. And they're often faced with family members constantly asking them when they're going to start a family. And this can be incredibly hurtful, frustrating, upsetting, and challenging really to face because you're sitting there with something in private and you can't address it and then you're being asked about it. And then what's worse is sometimes they do actually talk about what they're going through. It's not a secret, but then they're being given very unhelpful suggestions as if they don't already know that changing the diet is going to be great And then, [00:12:00] of course, just relax and it's going to be fine, if only it was that easy. So, there's a lot of, very frustrating comments that come, and it seems like when people don't really know what it's like,  they'll never understand quite how painful it is to go through something like this. And oftentimes, it is very well meaning, but sometimes it can come off as very insensitive. And of course, it's going to be insensitive because unless you're going through it, you're not going to fully understand it. So how can you really, truly be sensitive to the topic and understand it fully and know what to say that's going to make things better? And sometimes, People don't even want to hear anything. All they want to do is be able to talk or be left alone. So that can really put a strain on the relationship itself. And I hear this a lot and it's like certain family members or certain close friends, you know, And they just don't want to [00:13:00] deal with it. When you're going through this challenge, you just don't want to deal with that extra added pressure or extra added stress. So this is actually really common. And sometimes the only solution is creating boundaries or possibly seeing those family members a little less. Now, I know that sounds kind of harsh and I know it sounds almost overly simplistic. However, depending on the relationship, if it is causing you major stress and you're coming home and you're ruminating about it and you're thinking about it and then you're wishing you would have said this or that, and you're just, it's constantly adding an extra added stress to the already stressful and draining process of fertility challenges, then at that point you have to really almost say no to them, say yes to yourself, and look at it as saying yes to yourself, because looking at it in that way, [00:14:00] of self care can shift a little bit of the perspective and make you realize that this is really important for you. You need to protect your energy. Now, in some cases, some people are able to brush it off. It's not a big deal. I really not take it personally. Most cases, that is not the case because it is a very fragile and vulnerable time of people's lives and they just can't deal with this. It's too much. So that is when I say healthy boundaries are really, really important. And yes, you absolutely can and should create boundaries when it comes to your relationship, how people are speaking to both of you, any kind of insensitivity. You have every right to create those boundaries. You not just have a right, but it is really a priority because this is a very difficult time,  and I also want to say that you shouldn't feel pressured to let people know what's going on in your [00:15:00] personal life if you're not ready to do so. You shouldn't feel pressured to do this at work. You shouldn't feel pressured at all because it's really your personal process and you should have every right to decide when and if you are going to tell people about your personal journey. I highly suggest to while you're going through this to find a community of people that understand where you're coming from. There's so much healing and finding other people that are going through the journey with you. There's something really miraculous that happens and I've seen it in my own work and I've actually had two women who are going through a transfer at the same exact time with the same doctor. I don't know if I mentioned this on the podcast before, but. I happen to come in late on a Thursday to see both of them because they were having their procedure on Friday morning. So I came in late Thursday so that I'll [00:16:00] be able to do like the pre protocol for the transfer just so happened to be that these two women. We're going through very, very similar situations. Both of them were doing IVF because their husbands had testicular cancer and had to freeze their sperm before going through treatment. I knew at that moment that these two women had to meet and I felt like, Oh my God, this is really meant to be. And so it was amazing. So I introduced them that day and I remember going out and Outside and I see them Sitting outside talking in the corner and discussing everything and I of course couldn't tell them What their personal story was but I did say you have a lot in common. You should talk and they became friends and Amazingly both got pregnant. So they're pregnant right now as we speak And I'll tell you, it was really comforting for each of them [00:17:00] to communicate and talk and connect on this because it was something that they both had in common. They were both going through. One of them had had a previous pregnancy with a successful transfer in the past. So she was guiding. My other patient who this was her first time and she was really nervous and she was calming her down. So it was really a beautiful thing to see. So what I found through and through with so many of my patients and so many of my clients, and even in times where I've created little cohorts  of group coaching is that people connecting to others has been profound. Having this community of people going through the fertility journey and having this kind of friendship and support. is huge. So this is kind of like the opposite. So while many relationships can get impacted in not the best way, and in many situations you may [00:18:00] need to create boundaries. While that can be so, it's just an amazing opportunity to make new relationships that you will have. Literally for a lifetime, because the bond that you have with other people that are going through the same kind of pain and difficulty and challenges as you is priceless. Another question that I often hear my patients ask, and if it's normal, is when their sister in laws or sisters or even close friends are having baby showers. And they are expected to be there. And in some cases they do not know that they're going through the fertility journey. So this could be incredibly, incredibly difficult. Because it serves as a reminder of what you do not have. And it could be really tough. And one of the most. difficult aspects of this that I hear from [00:19:00] the women that I work with is that it is conflicting emotions. You're really happy for the person and you feel so guilty that it's hard for you to be happy for them. And you're feeling both emotions at the same time and you don't know what to do with yourself. So this is a really difficult time  And it's one of the most challenging states of minds where you feel so many emotions at once. You feel grief, you feel sad, you feel jealous, you feel bad, you feel love. I mean, it's just a combination and it's just a crazy mix of emotions. What I would say is you don't have to go. If it's that excruciating and that difficult, you can pass on these events. And if it means coming up with some kind of excuse because you really feel like you have to come up with it, then do it. Then come up with an excuse, make it simple, make it a simple and easy exit.[00:20:00] Of course, you don't want to have to come up with an excuse and you sometimes cannot tell them the truth because they're just not going to understand it. So sometimes you need to do what you have to do to get yourself through this difficult situation. So in those cases, My perspective is that it is okay to say no or to figure out a different way and just to not go. If you are going to be going through an extra added grief and difficulty, then Almost what's the point? What's the point of going? You're not going to feel happy in that situation and you want to be there in a positive way and you can't. And that's okay. And so in that case, I think you can create that boundary and you can give yourself a pass and you don't have to feel guilty for it. So this is kind of like my own reflection, if that means anything or if that makes you feel any better. I personally think that this is something that you can definitely bow out [00:21:00] of and you have a very good reason to do so. So really those are common things that I hear about how relationships get impacted through the fertility journey. So if your relationships are getting impacted and you're feeling a shift, I it is completely normal and very common. And it is something that is going to happen when you start to shift and you're going through your own changes and you're going through difficulties and feeling more vulnerable. You're going to have different needs and you're going to need to also cut out certain elements that are just not helping you. And I will say, It's okay to be selfish. You need to take care of yourself. So really prioritize your self care. When you are going through this journey, you are in a fragile state, and acknowledging that knowing that can help you and it can help you empower yourself because then you know, okay, I need to come up with a different [00:22:00] strategy because typically. new things will come up and we're just going to continue life the way we've always done it. But sometimes we need to shift it based on the demands of this new journey that we're on. Now, most of the time, even though those journeys can be long, I can attest because I've been working with a lot of people, is that it doesn't last forever. But when you are on it, You do need to make some shifts and changes to address the draining of energy that you're going through and to address the need for more self care. So sometimes you can do things like meditate or journal and have a place where you're able to Write down your emotions or have some kind of counseling because it's important to be able to safely process your emotions and connect with people also that are on the same wavelength that are actually helping you in this journey. And I can say that going out of your way [00:23:00] to be proactive about that. will really serve you so much because you need that support and knowing that you need that support ultimately is the first step to empowering your journey. So I hope you got some validation here on this episode because I know really that was ultimately my intention. is to validate what you're going through as completely normal. I see this all the time. It's very, very normal to go through in any kind of process that could be so traumatic and difficult. If you have any questions that you are wondering if it's normal, feel free to DM me on Instagram and my handle is at the wholesome lotus fertility. I would love to hear from you and I thank you so much for tuning in today. Have a beautiful day. 

Jenny Powers is an accomplished writer, scientist, and athlete.  She earned her Ph.D. in microbiology and immunology from the University of Colorado, Denver; her journey as a collegiate basketball player taught her to push physical boundaries even as she continually expanded her intellectual horizons. She is deeply inspired by the exploration of human nature and the study of our ancestors; her role researching and co-authoring On the Origin of Being marks the culmination of this passion to date. Jenny balances her professional endeavors with her roles as a wife and mother in Colorado.   In this episode, we discussed the evolutionary mismatch between our genetics and contemporary lifestyles, how this mismatch impacts our health, and how learning our evolutionary journey can help us return to a state of thriving.    Her co-authored book, "On the Origin of Being" covers sleep, nutrition, work and rest, and our relationship with nature.   Takeaways: Our circadian rhythms, which evolved over millions of years, play a crucial role in our health and fertility. Prioritizing sleep and maintaining a regular sleep-wake cycle supports our natural rhythms and overall well-being. Our modern diet, high in processed foods and sugar, is not aligned with our evolutionary needs. Returning to whole, unprocessed foods can support our overall health and fertility. Processed fats and sugars are prevalent in the modern diet and can have negative effects on health. Fiber is important for gut health and helps regulate insulin levels. Understanding the evolutionary reasons behind our cravings can help us make healthier food choices. Overworking and a lack of rest can have detrimental effects on our well-being. Being present in the moment and finding work-life balance is essential for a healthy and fulfilling life.   Website: https://www.ontheoriginofbeing.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ontheoriginofbeing/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ontheoriginofbeing/   Check out Michelle's latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   Follow Michelle on Instagram @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ for more tips and updates. For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Jenny.   Jenny Powers (00:01) Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.   Michelle (00:04) Yes, I'm excited to talk to you about this amazing topic and your new book. And I would love for you to first start with introducing yourself and your background, how you got into writing this recent book about where we came from.   Jenny Powers (00:18) Yeah, okay. Well, my name is Jenny Powers. I grew up as an Air Force brat, so I kind of moved all over the country and got to play basketball at the University of Colorado when I studied chemical engineering. But then I went back to school to study immunology and that's what I got my PhD in.   studying the innate immune system, macrophages and cell signaling and stuff like that. But I felt while it was interesting and fascinating, I felt like there was just, I wasn't doing what I think was in my heart, which was to be a writer. So when I had my kids, it was really kind of a nice time to make a break from academic science and move into trying to become a writer. And I actually started writing   not fiction books for kids, middle grade books for like eight to 12 year olds. So I have a couple of finished manuscripts. Nothing's been published yet. But, you know, I needed some sort of part time easy, you know, kind of fit in my schedule job. And it was incredible that I found this job opportunity with my co author, Luke Comer. He actually was looking for someone to research one of his other books, which is a nutrition book.   And when I called to interview with him, he's like, I already found a nutritionist. I'm like, man, you know, this is that's too bad. You know, this sounds like a really good fit for me. And he's like, well, what about this idea? And so something that he had been like holding in his head for the last 10 years. And it kind of started when he was looking at nutrition, like how far away are we from how how how we are living right now? How far away are we from how we evolved to live?   And it kind of applies to all so many different aspects of our lives. In this first book, we cover, you know, kind of the basics, sleep, nutrition, work and rest, and our relationship with nature. But we actually have other parts, other books in the series, hopefully that will come out that cover more like social groups and cultural things and all of these things. We're no longer living in accord with our biology and   it sounded fascinating to me because there are several parts of that where I had already started feeling not quite connected. So the one that really stood out to me when I was writing this was the work because I was a PhD student and then the postdoc and I worked 70 hours a week and I was exhausted and then I had also,   in my late teens, early twenties started suffering from depression and then feeling really connected to the environment, but then seeing what's happening to the environment. So I had already had some of these things like really affecting my life. And when Luke presented me with this idea, he's like, well, what do you think about researching this and collaborating with me for a book on this? I was like, this sounds amazing because not only do I get to use   Michelle (03:30) Yeah.   Jenny Powers (03:34) my experience as a researcher, but I get to write and I get to write about something that I grew more and more passionate about as I researched it. I like to think that I was, I'm kind of just like a reader at the very beginning when you pick up the book, you don't know anything, right? And so, but so when I picked up this project, it was a total blank slate and it was amazing to be able to have the freedom.   to research and write until I learned so much about myself and about why maybe I was feeling depressed and the things that I can do to change. And it felt really good to be able to bring this into the world. And it's been a really exciting ride. You kind of don't necessarily plan something, but you kind of like take the next step. And then there's these like little breadcrumbs that you follow. And...   I had no idea when I started this project that I'd be on podcasts and we'd have a book in the world. And it's just been an amazing, amazing ride.   Michelle (04:35) I bet. And I'll tell you, I mean, personally, I feel very drawn to this topic and I'll tell you why. I mean, this is a fertility podcast. I'm very much into that, but Chinese medicine is really my background. And Chinese medicine is really, you know, it's interesting because you look kind of back in the history and it's very old. You know, Chinese medicine has been around for thousands of years.   Jenny Powers (04:44) Mm -hmm.   Right.   Michelle (05:00) and they still don't really know the origins exactly. They estimate about 3000, but they think it's longer. But there was a lot of book burning that has happened over the years. And it's really based on Taoism, which translates as the way. And the way is living in accordance with the laws of nature and how over time, like when we lose that direction,   it can cause disease, dis -ease disease. And yeah, it's really fascinating. So I think it's really cool because this is kind of like modern research on something old, but like coming at it from a different angle, but similar, but it's deriving really at the same essence, which is.   Jenny Powers (05:29) Right, right.   Yeah, it's at the heart of what you do. Yeah. How the laws of nature, what did nature do to get us here? Because nature, I like to call it nature and evolution, they were like biohacking, right? That's like this big catchphrase nowadays, like biohacking, but you're making small incremental changes over time and then see like what...   Michelle (05:58) Yes.   Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Jenny Powers (06:15) improves how you feel and what doesn't. And so that's what natural selection does. Like the things that improved our survival and improved our, you know, our wellbeing and our equilibrium are the things that stayed and the things that didn't serve us, you know, got selected out. And so I really feel like nature knew what it was doing and it had millions of years and lots of small little incremental changes that made us who we were.   Michelle (06:17) Mm -hmm.   Jenny Powers (06:43) for various reasons, for all of the environmental selection and what we needed to do to survive. And yeah, I totally see the ancient, how ancient medicine, ancient peoples, indigenous peoples, how they approach wellbeing. It's not just treating symptoms, it's treating the holistic, the whole body.   all of these different things that I think thankfully now more and more people like yourself and your functional medicine doctors and holistic doctors, you know, people who kind of bring the old and kind of combine it with the new. I think that is really where healthcare needs to go.   Michelle (07:22) Yeah, it's really fascinating. And I think to myself, like just really how nature is. And what we've been seeing is that fertility has been on a decline and nobody really understands exactly what it is that's causing this for men and women. And there are many ideas of just environmental factors, toxins, like EMFs we don't even see, you know, we're not even aware of what's going on. It's not natural to the body. The body's not used to it. Like our DNA doesn't...   Jenny Powers (07:40) Mm -hmm.   Michelle (07:50) respond well to it because it doesn't know what it is and it doesn't know how to react. So really the basis of Taoism and all of that is that we in our nature are fertile. Nature is fertile. There's a seed in everything. Everything that grows has a seed because it wants to keep reproducing. And yeah, it's pretty fascinating. And I think to myself, some of the things that you guys wrote about were things that I talk about like sleep.   Jenny Powers (07:53) Right.   I like that.   Michelle (08:18) and the circadian rhythm. And so I would love to really start picking your brain on this because it's really fascinating. It's like really kind of coming home to ourselves and our, you know, the origin of being going back to that origin and how we can do that. Sometimes it feels like an uphill battle.   Jenny Powers (08:19) Mm -hmm.   Yeah.   Michelle (08:35) So even though fertility has been on a decline, that shouldn't make us lose hope because there are definitely things that we can do to bring ourselves back to our origins. So with that being said, I just want to always give a message of hope because there's always something that you can do. It might take a little extra work just because like the stream is a little strong right now in a certain direction that may be kind of moving us away, but there's definitely things that we can do.   Jenny Powers (08:44) Exactly. Yeah.   Right.   Michelle (09:03) And this is why I love your work so much because it sheds light on things that I think are so important. And so let's, let's cover all of it. Let's start with like the first part. And I believe the first part of it is sleep.   Jenny Powers (09:14) Yeah, yeah.   Yes, that's the kind of the first fundamental way of being that we cover. It was interesting because I've listened to a couple of your podcasts and one stood out in particular to me, the one with Alison Locke. You talked about all kinds of environmental things and sleep and I found myself like nodding along because I was like, well, yeah, health contributes to fertility. But then learning about what you guys talked about in that podcast, I'm like, my gosh, so many.   Michelle (09:31) Mm -hmm.   Jenny Powers (09:47) of the things that we talk about in our book can be applied to fertility. Because it's just in order to be fertile and like you said, to access what we're naturally supposed to do, we need to be in a state of well -being and we need to be able to be in equilibrium. Because that's what nature designed us to do. And the very first thing when you started talking about circadian rhythms, I'm like, yes, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   Michelle (09:52) Totally.   I loved it when I read it in your book. I was like, yeah, I felt the same way.   Jenny Powers (10:16) Because so many people don't necessarily understand that the very first organisms on Earth evolved for circadian rhythms. Because in the sea where everything started, the organisms knew, like, OK, well, what time of day are the nutrients most available? What time of day is the safest to undergo cell division?   You know, you don't want to necessarily undergo cell division when you're at the surface, when the sun shining on you and you might get, you know, DNA damage. So those cells evolved to respond to the rhythms of the earth, because at the very beginning of time, at the very beginning of the earth, there was night and day. You know, we had we had sunlight and we had well, later we had the moon. But so like from the very, very origins of life, we had this this rhythm that   tied us to the earth. And so even with the smallest cell. And so every living thing has circadian rhythms, has genes. I mean, someone won the Nobel Prize for, I think it was for medicine, discovering that these genes that regulate the rhythms of your body are in everything. And what's interesting is circadian rhythms are   Michelle (11:38) everything in your body or just in nature.   Jenny Powers (11:40) Well, everything in nature, but also, I think what's important is some people like, well, we're evolved past that. Like humans don't have circadian rhythms, you know, because we're sophisticated beings. And what's interesting is we haven't evolved away from circadian rhythms, but our culture has pushed us away and our technology has pushed us away. So we might not think that, we don't need these to tell us what to do because.   But the problem is our society and our individuals, we override what our body is trying to tell us. We override the signals that circadian rhythms are trying to give us. So.   Michelle (12:19) You're speaking my language. I literally say that all the time. We override it. It's, wow, I just love this.   Jenny Powers (12:24) Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, I feel like I mean, that's one of the main things in the book is, yes, the modern world is great and modern culture brings so many great things, but we have to be aware of like our bio, like we have to be aware of what our bodies are telling us. And people are so they're so focused on.   the future, or they're so distracted, or they want to stay up and watch another three episodes on Netflix and not sleep, or stay up and work until 2 in the morning. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And like you said, it all starts with a good night's sleep. And what was interesting when we were studying this is that a lot of the   Michelle (12:59) Yeah   Yeah, those things are designed to be addictive. I feel like it's like the fast food of like, of shows.   Jenny Powers (13:19) Indigenous peoples who are still surviving in these far out, you know, they've been pushed to the fringes, to not even the best, the most hospitable places on earth. They're kind of been pushed to kind of, you know, the places that we didn't want, like the modern people didn't want. But studying them, it's not like they got so much sleep and it's not like they, but what was really important was   they were completely in tune with the sun rising and the sun setting and their bodies responded to that. So when you think about nowadays, you know, we get up and we kind of have, there's someone in our book that I can't remember who was, it's like we live a twilight existence, right? We never get the same amount of light that the sun would give us, but we get it all straight through the day, right? Whereas if we were living,   according to our natures, we get lots of sunlight in the morning, really intense bright sunlight in the morning. And then it goes down. And then once the sun goes down, there's no exposure except firelight and moonlight. And what was interesting about what I love to know about blue light, because blue light is this big thing right now, right? But but the reason why we're so reactive to blue light is because that   is the wavelength of light that penetrated the sea. And so that's where life started. So the reason why we could have been attuned to any wavelength of light, but we were attuned to the blue light because of where our origins were. So getting lots of blue light, sunlight in the morning, but then not getting blue light after it goes down, after the sun goes down, it helps our bodies like reset, like, okay.   This is when our melatonin hormone is going to go up. And then once the sun goes down, the melatonin starts to be produced. And then there's this window where you're tired. And if you're listening to your body, that's when you go to sleep. And then if you're in tune with the Earth, the Indigenous people that were studied, they woke up at the same time every day and got that bright sunlight in the morning.   So it was just really amazing to see like these people, they sleep on the ground or on some skins and they sleep on their arms. And if you look at the difference, I think there's a picture in the book, like our beds are so comfortable, but they didn't even know what insomnia was because they didn't really experience it. It wasn't a problem. They were so in tune with the natural rhythms of the earth and they listened to their bodies.   Michelle (15:59) Mm -hmm.   Jenny Powers (16:07) that they just didn't have problems with sleep. And so that was a huge like eye -opening thing to me. Like you think like, humans have always struggled with sleep. And there are some people who struggle, but that what's really cool about people who have different genetics, different circadian genetics is that, you know, those night owls, people who can't fall asleep till late in the evening and have really have trouble getting up.   Michelle (16:14) Yeah.   Thank you.   Jenny Powers (16:36) that was an evolutionary advantage because there needed to be people to be sentinels to keep the rest of us safe. And because we had these amazing brains, we needed to have really good, high quality, deep sleep. And some of the reasons why, you know, maybe animals in the wild don't necessarily get really deep sleep is because   Michelle (16:44) Mm -hmm.   Jenny Powers (17:04) they have to be kind of aware of their surroundings. But humans, we got together into big groups and we protected each other. And so as our brains evolved and as our sleep evolved, we were able to get really dense, good quality sleep in a very short time. And because when you're asleep, you're pretty helpless, you know, especially some of the cycles of sleep, you're like parallel, you're literally paralyzed, your body's paralyzed.   Michelle (17:24) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Jenny Powers (17:32) So the people who are early risers or late, you know, the night owls, they're actually helped us survive because they were alert at times when the other people weren't. So I've talked to a researcher and he said, well, oftentimes people who have these delayed sleep phases or advanced sleep phases, once they realize that it's evolutionary and like, it really helps them, like put it into perspective. Nothing's wrong with them.   Michelle (17:44) It's fascinating.   Jenny Powers (18:01) It's just part of how they evolved. So all that stuff just fascinates me.   Michelle (18:02) Right.   That's interesting. That is so fascinating. Yeah. It's really interesting. But as you're telling me, it's really the regularity of that. It's that pulse, that rhythm and sticking with that rhythm. And interestingly enough, there's definitely a correlation with circadian rhythm, dysfunction and menstrual cycle health. So, and that's kind of our larger rhythm for women. And that would be an interesting topic for you to kind of go into is maybe make   series on this with women's health and the cycles and how that impacts it because it's really fascinating. I mean, we need that rhythm like our bodies really respond to that rhythm of nature. And once it has that really intact, then our bodies get more regulated. I had the same thing myself and this is how I got into Chinese medicine.   Jenny Powers (18:34) Yeah.   Okay.   Michelle (18:53) is because I had irregular periods, but I also had irregular sleep and so many irregularities. And I feel like it's almost like a train getting derailed. You have to put it back on track and then have that rhythm set again.   Jenny Powers (19:06) Right? That's exactly right. And what's amazing is that, so in the book, we don't necessarily talk about fertility, but some of the reasons why we have these diseases of modernity, and I guess you could say like infertility and endometriosis, what you and Alison talked about, which was fascinating to me, was that all the things that women struggle with, PMS, pain,   mood swings, all of those things are kind of unnatural. Like the big, the severe symptoms of menstruation that women get are unnatural. And that like blew my mind. So, but, but we don't necessarily talk about fertility, but inflammation, stress, you know, cortisol levels, your gut health, all of these things we talk about in the book and all of those things that you talk about.   Michelle (19:45) Mm -hmm.   Jenny Powers (20:04) impact your fertility. So getting a good cycle start or getting back on track is like a really good place to start. Because you know when you don't get a good night's sleep. You feel tired and being tired for your whole day just sets everything back. You can't eat properly when you're tired. You don't want to exercise when you're tired.   Michelle (20:26) Yeah. And when you're overtired, it's hard to sleep. That's the weird thing. It's kind of hard to get back into that rhythm like one way or the other.   Jenny Powers (20:30) Yeah.   Because your body is in a stress state. When you have a sleep deficit, your body starts to be in more of a fight or flight. And then your body keeps you awake because there's like, well, there must be a reason why I have to be awake right now. So I'm going to help you. I'm going to help you be awake. And all the diseases that come from, I heard you talk about shift work. People who do shift work have infertility.   Michelle (20:38) Yeah, it's very heightened.   Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Jenny Powers (21:02) You know, shift work has been classified as a carcinogen because of their dysregulated circadian rhythms. Like humans weren't meant to work at night. That's not, that doesn't tell people like, cause shift work is really important. There's so many professions that it's important to, but people who do that just need to be aware so they can compensate for that. It's, you know, it's not like, shift work bad. You know, shift work is vital for some people.   Michelle (21:05) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Right, exactly.   Mm -hmm.   Jenny Powers (21:28) But they need to know that that is going to predispose them to some things and they need to take preventative measures to make sure that their shift works and their circadian rhythms aren't, or their circadian rhythms being not in sync with the earth. They just need to remember that they need to try to mitigate some of the effects from that.   Michelle (21:46) Mm -hmm.   So when they have breaks getting like more early morning sunlight or something to kind of like quickly anchor them out, like earthing, putting your feet on the earth, like how you were saying, I thought about that when you were saying people used to sleep on the earth and how that lowers inflammation. And then also the natural aspect of really connecting with like soil and the microbiomes that impact our gut health. So let's talk a little bit on the nutrition.   Jenny Powers (21:57) Yeah.   Mm -hmm, yeah.   Okay.   Michelle (22:19) aspect of it. So what are some of the things that you uncovered that are really more natural to us? And I saw, I noticed that you talked all the highly processed food and how that is like really not in line with our own digestive system and our body's ability to process them.   Jenny Powers (22:36) Yeah, well, if in the book we talk about how from when we have the common ancestor with chimpanzees and bonobos. So we talk about kind of what their diet would be like and how changes in the environment changed our diet. And so, and then changes in the environment and then changes in our diet actually were some of the things that allowed us to evolve bigger brains because   when the environment changed, when the great rift came in Africa and split Africa into East Africa and West Africa, the East African side, the climate changed so much. It lost trees, it became more savanna, it became more grassland. And in order to survive, the animals, the early primates that were stuck on that side needed to evolve or they wouldn't survive. They lost their tree food, which was mostly fruits.   leaves and things like that. Food became farther apart. So we lost our ability to climb through trees, but we gained bipedalism and stature and being able to hold things in our hands when we walked. And we needed to find new sources of carbohydrates. So we started finding really high quality dense carbohydrates in like roots and tubers and things like that.   we really didn't need when we lived in the trees because we had all this fruit to feed our brains. But some of the cultural things that we needed, like now, so now all the animals, there were bigger animals and, you know, on the savanna. And so we had to increase our intellect in order to be able to eat, you know, eat the larger animals and to figure out how to dig up those tubers. So our brain size evolved, our intellect evolved.   But then in order to support that brain and our intellect, we had to find the foods that supported the evolution. So like the story of nutrition and the story of evolution, especially the evolution of our brains is so tied together. So, you know, it's like if you talk about nutrition, you have to talk about the evolution of our nutrition if you want to talk about the evolution of our bodies, because our big brain and another...   Michelle (24:52) Mm -hmm.   Jenny Powers (24:55) reason why we got big brains is because we were able to, our guts were able to shrink. So we have very short guts compared to other primates. And that's for two reasons. One is you were able to, all the nutrients and resources that are required to maintain gut, your gut can now be shifted over and maintain your brain. But we had shorter guts. So we needed to find   Michelle (25:17) Mm -hmm.   Jenny Powers (25:21) more energy dense food that was easier to digest. So we needed to find, we started to eat more and more animal meat and animal fat because those are easier to digest. Plants have things that are like don't eat being here. We need to kind of get rid of some of those things. But again, we got to use our intellect to learn how to hunt these bigger creatures, but also to process food. Like we, you can't eat a potato raw.   Michelle (25:37) huh.   Jenny Powers (25:50) You know, but we learned how to process food to make it easier to digest. So our guts could remain small and we'd still get all the nutrients that we need, but our brains will still also get what it needs. So we started to process foods. And when I mean process, it doesn't mean like the modern day processing of foods, because when our ancestors processed foods, you know, cooked it or grounded or fermented it, they still ate the entire food. They still ate the whole food.   Michelle (25:51) Mm -hmm.   Yeah.   Mm -hmm.   Jenny Powers (26:20) There was nothing that got thrown out. And so they processed the food to make it easier to digest. All of the nutrients of the food came into our bodies. And for our gut health, that was really important. The fiber was really important that we would eat. And so now these ultra processed foods that we have nowadays, there's just no fiber in them. It's just sugar.   Michelle (26:20) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Jenny Powers (26:46) The consumption of this much sugar, it doesn't have any precedence. Yeah, and yeah, let's not even start talking about all the artificial stuff that gets put in there. So yeah, you were saying like our bodies just don't know how to handle it because over the last 300 years, so the agricultural revolution changed eating forever. But I feel like in the last 200 years since the industrial revolution, things have changed so quickly.   Michelle (26:50) and chemicals.   Yeah. Yeah.   Jenny Powers (27:15) I mean, we're eating, I think we went from eating like four pounds of sugar a year, like 300 years ago, and now people eat 150 to 200 pounds of sugar a year, which is just totally crazy. And something you talk about in the book, it's like we have this evolutionary mismatch because genes can't evolve that quickly, right? We can't rely on our bodies to adapt to this much sugar intake.   Michelle (27:26) That's just crazy. Yeah.   Jenny Powers (27:45) But something that's really cool about humans is a lot of these big things in our life, big hurdles that we needed to get over, we didn't need to evolve because we have our intellect and because we have culture. And so we could bypass evolution to fix problems. So what the good news about this is we can still bypass our lack of evolution to fix this problem, right? Because if we know   But the way we're eating, our bodies literally have not adapted. It takes hundreds of thousands of years for adaptations to make its way through an entire population. But if we know it, we can intellectually make the changes we need to make. So that's the good news. We don't have to be like, well, I wish our bodies would catch up so I can continue to eat this highly processed food. No, just stop eating it.   Michelle (28:35) you   Jenny Powers (28:40) eat the whole foods. And then you don't have to worry about, you know, that your body's not, that your body's mismatched because now you're now living more in alignment with what your body wants.   Michelle (28:41) Yeah. Right.   Yeah, I mean, it's just so important because it is something that a lot of people are talking about now. Luckily, I think it's becoming like more front and center. For a little while there, nobody even paid attention to it. And it was also as interesting because people were like afraid of fats and everything with sugar. For a I think we were completely as a society blind to it. Until recently, I think people are starting to wake up to it.   Jenny Powers (29:01) Yeah.   Right?   Right?   Yeah, yeah, and when those studies came out, that demonized fat.   Michelle (29:27) they were funded by sugar companies.   Jenny Powers (29:29) Exactly, yeah, because its own findings came out about sugar, but for some reason, the establishment focused on fat. And so, and there is, we do have a problem with fat, not because we're eating necessarily too much of it, it's because we're eating all the wrong kinds of fats, in the wrong ratios. And so, but also we're eating like, the fats we're eating are like,   Michelle (29:41) Mm -hmm.   right trans fats and yeah.   Jenny Powers (29:55) processed fats, you know, vegetable, all these oils that are processed, that you stick some of that oil and all this processed sugar together and pretty much 90 % of the things in the grocery store are made up of these things. The sugar that we never used to eat and the type of fat that we never used to eat, all of these processed fats. So, yeah, I'm glad that now sugar is coming out as being a villain in and of itself, but it's also to say, well, we need, our bodies need sugar.   Michelle (30:24) Mm -hmm.   Jenny Powers (30:24) But we need to have it in a form that digests slower, that also that goes into our bloodstream slower, that helps our insulin levels be more regulated. And we need to have the fiber that's still in there to help our gut health. Because if we just eat straight processed sugar all the time, it's like, I read somewhere, it's like, you know, a fertilizer runoff causes these algae blooms. Like one type of algae just takes over an entire ecosystem because it's   Michelle (30:28) Right.   Right.   hehe   Jenny Powers (30:53) if that's the one algae that like really liked that fertilizer. But if we're just eating sugar, all the beneficial gut bacteria, they're like, no, I want fiber. But this one gut bacteria is like sugar, sugar, give me more sugar. So you lose, you know, one dominates and you lose the diversity of the bacteria in your gut.   Michelle (30:56) Right.   Yeah.   Well, when you were talking before and you were saying about how they ate the whole fruit or the foods and they didn't take parts, it wasn't like, like it was really eaten with a fiber. So usually the things that have naturally sugar have fiber as well. Most of the time you'll find, you know, fruits, most of them have fiber. So having even the juice of just natural fruits.   Jenny Powers (31:31) Yeah.   Right?   Michelle (31:41) is not quite the same as having it as its whole, like in its whole nature.   Jenny Powers (31:45) Right, right, exactly. Because, I mean, it's funny because our whole goal, evolutionary goal, in order to feed our brains with our shorter guts, we needed nutrient -dense, easily digestible food, right? But we took it way too far because when we were doing it right, it was just us preparing the food, right? As soon as we had the technological advancements, for now, now we don't prepare the food.   and the industrial complex prepares this food, it's no longer in our control. And so what sells most? The things that are most palatable, the things that are energy dense, and the things that are easy to digest. And so with the advent of technology and the Industrial Revolution, we took that evolutionary goal way too far because it was a goal of ours.   Michelle (32:18) Yeah.   Mm -hmm.   Jenny Powers (32:41) There is a reason why sugar is addictive because when we ate sugar, as our ancestors ate sugar, you would receive dopamine because you needed to have glucose in your body. Your brain needs it to function. Your brain just uses sugar. Some of the other parts of your body use other things to fuel it, fats and things like that to fuel it.   Michelle (32:54) Mm -hmm.   Jenny Powers (33:09) primarily, but our brains need sugar. So there's an evolutionary reason why sugar is addictive. We just couldn't get our hands on it. We ate honey occasionally and we ate fruit. But this much sugar and process and basically like white flour, all the fiber is stripped out of it. That's pretty much just eating sugar because of the way that it just gets absorbed into your bloodstream.   Michelle (33:17) That's interesting.   Yeah.   Yeah, it's empty calories. It's just not really like, it doesn't give you much bang for your buck at all.   Jenny Powers (33:42) Right, right, right. But it does give you a release of dopamine and you feel good because we need to have that. But now again, we needed to have this instinct, but now we have our intellect. And so like, yes, we need to have a well -roundeddiet with carbohydrates and fats and proteins. But now we know intellectually, I'm craving that because I evolved to crave it.   Michelle (33:47) Yep, right.   Mm -hmm.   Jenny Powers (34:10) But I don't need to eat it. Like I can eat other things that gives me the same thing. And I find them, and I've found this and I've heard lots of people say once they start eating whole foods, the cravings for the potato chips and the brownies and the cookies, you just don't have those anymore. Right?   Michelle (34:10) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Correct. Yeah, it feels like I think the difficult thing is that it feels like it's going to be forever. The suffering or the discomfort of the cravings or the withdrawal, it feels like it's going to be like that forever. It's really not. I would say two weeks, about two weeks, maybe three, but like really even the first week is a big one. And then once you get through that, you're feeling better. And then once you overcome that, it doesn't feel like anything. You don't miss it. So, and it's just...   Jenny Powers (34:36) Right.   No. Yeah.   Right.   I don't, yeah, it's pretty amazing. I don't miss it. And then when I do, you know, have to have dessert, you know, when I'm out with friends or, you know, special occasions, I don't feel very good the next day. Like I enjoy eating it. But sometimes it's almost like, whoa, it's too sweet. But then, you know, you just have to realize, yeah, it's okay to indulge once in a while, but know that you're going to feel awful. But that also just reinforces that you're doing the right thing. Yeah.   Michelle (34:58) Yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah.   it totally does. Yeah. No, I have a lot of my patients when we talk about diet and then they go to a cruise and that's when they feel it. They're like, my God, I never realized like how this made me feel. And then they feel the difference. And I'm like, that's actually a good thing. I'm happy you went through that because it really shows you like you could really legitimately feel the difference from feeling good. When you're used to feeling bad, you almost don't know the difference until you feel good again. And that's kind of like another interesting. Yeah. You don't know better.   Jenny Powers (35:29) What?   Right?   Exactly, you don't know any better.   Michelle (35:50) But it's crazy how your body resists too much sugar. And then it starts to get insulin resistance. Like it's literally your body's like, whoa, like stop. And it kind of creates whatever ecosystem response to that. But it just shows you that your body doesn't like it.   Jenny Powers (36:09) Right? The majority of the things that people go to the doctor for now, humans never used to get. I mean, humans got communicable diseases, but now we have all of these non -communicable diseases, you know, the metabolic syndromes, diabetes, obesity, heart disease, hypertension, all of these things are solely due to lifestyle.   Michelle (36:34) Mm -hmm.   Jenny Powers (36:36) Some people who have genetic predispositions to things. So that doesn't help that the lifestyle that's presented to us, the lifestyle that's marketed to us doesn't help those people either. They have a worst time of it if they're genetically predisposed to some of these diseases. But those diseases just, we never used to die of those diseases. No worries.   Michelle (36:59) Hold on one second. Bye. My daughter.   Jenny Powers (37:05) So that was another thing. I'm like, you're right.   People, if it was a disease that affected everyone in their childhood, we would have evolved. So whatever predisposition to that disease, we would have evolved away from it because the goal of evolution is to reproduce. And if you don't make it to reproductive age, you don't reproduce. So if these problems happened early in childhood,   they would have been evolved out because you wanna get to the point where you can reproduce and pass your genes on. But all of these diseases of modernity happen after, you know, after you're fertile, after you have kids for the most part. A lot of it kind of starts, your lifestyle starts, but that's why it's just so prevalent because it doesn't affect our evolutionary success. Evolutionary success is to have offspring, right?   Michelle (37:52) Right, right.   Jenny Powers (38:04) So it's affecting us later in life and it's affecting our quality of life. So like, yeah, we might still live to be 75, but how many of those years are really good years? Like when do you start having these debilitating illnesses that affect your quality of life? So the hunter gatherers and our ancestors, you know, who we have models of today, if they get past childhood and   Michelle (38:17) Yeah, that's true.   Jenny Powers (38:33) aren't forced to leave the land and be people, become who they're not with their lifestyle changes. They live very, very healthily into their seventies. And that because they're so healthy, they're contributing members of the group. They're not debilitated to the point where people have to give them.   Michelle (38:45) Yeah.   Jenny Powers (39:00) resources, they're still in the mix, they're still contributing, and that's because they're healthy.   Michelle (39:08) Yeah, amazing. It's interesting how, I mean, just kind of being in your nature, your body responds to living kind of in accordance to the Tao. It's really like, it comes full circle to that. And then speaking of also just balance, let's talk about work and rest and how much we as Americans and really modern culture, I think pretty much anywhere   Jenny Powers (39:18) Yeah.   Michelle (39:33) overworking and there's barely any time to rest people. I actually just spoke to my cousin. She's been having gut issues and I told her eat earlier because she's been eating like really late every day. She goes, I can't. She goes, by the time I get home at 7 PM, she goes, I cannot leave earlier. I'm like, what? It just sounds so crazy. So she comes home really late and she wants to cook and have dinner with her husband. So it's   Jenny Powers (39:52) Yeah.   Michelle (39:59) really tough because I mean, it's just insane hours. Like, so how do you even work around that? But yeah, so talk about that and what you've discovered.   Jenny Powers (40:03) Yeah. Yeah.   Well, I think what's interesting about our ancestors is they didn't have to worry about work and life balance because it was integrated, right? Their work life and their home life, it was all together. So they considered there, and it was another way of looking at it holistically. Like now we think we have our work and then we have our home, but their work was part of their everyday. But they also,   Michelle (40:30) Yeah.   Jenny Powers (40:36) What was really cool is that they didn't, they worked until they had what they needed and then they stopped. It was a very, someone coined this phrase, an immediate return economy because they didn't, they had such a different concept of time than we do. And they had such, you know, they lived off the earth and they had, they knew that whatever they needed, they would be provided that they didn't.   They didn't necessarily plan for the future. They worked until their needs were met. They listened to their bodies and like, okay, I'm not hungry anymore. I'm kind of tired. I'm going to go rest. You know, agriculture changed all that because now we went from an immediate return economy to a delayed return economy. You planted crops and then you waited and everything depended on this future outcome.   Michelle (41:14) Mm -hmm.   Jenny Powers (41:30) And so in today's world, we work now and we get a paycheck later. So it's another kind of way that we delayed our return on our investment, I guess. And so the way we look at work now, we never work in the present. We're always working. There's a deadline. There's this, we have this, we have this. And so in the book, we talk about how   Michelle (41:36) Mm -hmm.   So interesting, yeah.   Jenny Powers (41:57) rest and meditation really helps because we can't go back to an immediate return economy. You can't just be like, I've made enough money. You know, I'm going to quit my job or, you know, I'm going to go home when my hours are this. How you approach work can really change the outcomes of work. Like if you're if you stay in the present moment, not only can you you lower your stress, but you can also see what's really important if you're worried about some future.   Michelle (42:04) Yeah.   Jenny Powers (42:27) project, you're not going to be very efficient in the moment doing what you need to do. So it's kind of a mindset shift. Also, I think our society puts emphasis and puts people on the pedestal who work long hours and who make a lot of money. And so that and who have a lot of stuff. Yeah, we have   Michelle (42:36) Yeah, definitely.   It conditions, it conditions you.   Jenny Powers (42:54) I mean, I think I read it and it's in the book. An entire, I don't know, group of hunter gatherers had fewer possessions than a single farmer after the agricultural revolution. They just didn't have stuff. They didn't. And so once you have stuff, now you're like, you know, you need to buy more stuff and to buy more stuff, you need to make more money. And to keep up with the Joneses, you need to make even more money so you can buy more expensive stuff.   Michelle (43:21) Mm -hmm.   Jenny Powers (43:21) and buy a bigger house and then fill that house up with stuff. And then your house doesn't fit your stuff. So now you have a storage unit where you have to put your stuff. And so our emphasis on what's important in our society and what our society values is causing this work epidemic. I also think that people need to learn from an early age not to tie their identity with their achievements.   Michelle (43:24) Right.   Jenny Powers (43:49) tie their identity with work. Because I think we live in a place where it's kind of a meritocracy, where the people who are successful...   are just people and they're just as good, you know, the people who aren't successful, who are working their butts off every day, but enjoying their life, they're still these, they're successful people, right? They're not necessarily like making millions of dollars, but we idolize those people who make so much money. When really they might not have the best work -life balance. Probably not. I mean, I've never heard someone say,   Michelle (44:26) Yeah, it's interesting.   Jenny Powers (44:29) you know, on your deathbed. I wish I had had more money, you know? Yeah.   Michelle (44:32) Right. It's 100 % true. Well, that's because it's an illusion. It's this illusion, you know, and the ancients talked about that, the samsara and the illusion. It's like a matrix. We're living in a matrix. I mean, that's, you know, it kind of is because it's, it's the set code of ways of being, and it causes us to continue moving into the future or thinking about the past and never being present. And the ancients always talked about now.   Jenny Powers (44:44) Yeah.   Michelle (45:00) becoming more present, more alive. And even with meditation, we know that it really makes your body work better. This presence, being present, having your attention is like gold. Having your attention in the now actually infuses your body with more vitality. And if you think about the ancients, I mean, their focus was 100 % when they were hunting or whatever they were doing, they were present, like really, really fully present.   Jenny Powers (45:29) Yeah, exactly. And it's almost a survival. It was a survival mechanism. You had to be present so you could be... And this is kind of dovetails really nicely into the nature chapter because they were present in the moment and they were present in their environment, right? They could say, there was a deer came through here. There's that broken branch or they hear something.   Michelle (45:46) Mm -hmm.   Jenny Powers (45:55) you know, I think that's a predator, we need to go this way. Or they're so attuned to their bodies and to the world around them that they lived in the present moment. I mean, there's this stress reduction theory of nature, that nature, natural environments lower your stress and promote recovery because...   Yes, it has information, but has low levels of information that you need to be processing at all times. But when you are downtown in a big city walking around, there's cars driving by and there's people and there's loud noises. And so your senses are overwhelmed with all of these things to process. And now, where's my phone? Now we are overwhelmed by all of this information, all of the things that are just right at our fingertips.   Michelle (46:33) loud noises.   Yes.   Mm -hmm.   Jenny Powers (46:50) So no wonder we're stressed, you know, no wonder. Yeah, we're overwhelmed all the time.   Michelle (46:53) We're overwhelmed. It's like too much, too much information all the time and it overwhelms our, our minds. And that's why one of the things that I think is actually releasing is important, especially now. So when we're meditating or releasing kind of like the excess doing less, getting more into this yin phase of less and more harmony and more quiet, that's why we need it because we are in such a young active mode.   all the time, nonstop, 24 -7. And that's considered good. I remember, because I lived, I worked in New York and it was like the city that never sleeps. That's amazing. It's like the best thing ever. And I remember what it did to my nervous system. It wasn't good.   Jenny Powers (47:29) Great. People brag about it.   Thanks.   Yeah, I remember when I was in graduate school, we used to compare, well, how late were you up last night? I was in the lab until two in the morning. Well, I didn't even go to sleep last night. It's the hustle culture that's idolized. And what needs to be idolized is the slower culture where you actually enjoy at the moment by moment. I've noticed people always say, time is moving so fast. It's because we don't spend any time in the present moment.   Michelle (47:46) Yeah.   Mm -hmm.   Jenny Powers (48:08) we're spending a time in the future, we're spending time in the past and very few people actually experience every moment in the present. And I think if we experience moments in the present, time would seem slower. Time wouldn't seem to be just rushing by, rushing by, rushing by. And I know when you have kids, it seems that way because you actually see time passing as they're growing up. But I found that I feel like   Michelle (48:17) Mm -hmm.   Yeah.   Jenny Powers (48:37) When I'm less distracted, when I'm more relaxed, when I'm in the present moment, that's when you live. There's no other place to experience life except in the present moment. Everything else is just in your imagination, in your mind.   Michelle (48:52) Yeah. And when I work with people, I always talk about that. Like, because if I can, if you can get as present as possible, and it's hard, it's hard when you're trying to get to a goal, you know, it could be the goal is pregnancy or whatever that goal is. But if you can work on getting as present as possible, you are actually infusing life force into your moment to moment. You're more alive. When you're more alive, your body's more alive. When your body's more alive, you're more fertile. So these are things that   Jenny Powers (49:15) Yeah. yeah.   Michelle (49:21) timeless again, you know, things that we've been told for centuries. And it's always go within, go, you know, where we have that innate knowing that connection with our earth that like, typically our bodies communicating with us. I mean, this is such a fascinating conversation. I could talk to you for hours because it's just, there's so much to uncover. I mean, we're really literally talking about the nature of humanity and like where we came from. And there's just so much. And I can see why you would want to do a series on this.   Jenny Powers (49:23) Mm -hmm.   I...   Right?   Michelle (49:51) And I would be fascinated by that in the future as well. But for people who are listening and they're like, this sounds really interesting. How can they find you and get to the book?   Jenny Powers (50:03) Yeah, yeah, well, we have a website, www .ontheoriginofbeing .com. There's a link to places there. You can really buy it anywhere, any online retailer that you like, Amazon, Barnes and Noble. There's other places. I know people want to support smaller businesses and things like that. But it's available on online retailers. We are...   We have our website and we're also, we have a Facebook page at On The Origin of Being and I'm most active on Instagram at On The Origin of Being. That's where we're, I try to post at least once a day, little tidbits or news or like you said, this topic is so fertile. I don't feel like I'm ever gonna run out of things to post about because even if I'm posting about sleep, there's a million things I could post about sleep.   Michelle (50:52) Yeah.   Jenny Powers (50:57) There's a million things that they post about nutrition. So it and what's what's been amazing is I was off social media for 10, at least 10 years because it wasn't good for mental health. And when you have a book coming out, you kind of have to be out there a little bit. And so I was really worried. But what I found is there is this community of people like you have like minded people who who see   who have their eyes open, who see like, this is the way we're living is killing us. And they are actually, they really, really care about other people and their health. And they really, really care about the environment. And so I feel like there's this community online that I just hope to see it swell even bigger and bigger. I've just, I felt so supportive, supported. And so it's just so nice to meet other   people who are going through this journey and who have platforms like you who wanted to want to get the word out. You know, I feel there are these just genuine people who care and that's made my experience of being back in social media and getting back out into the world and promoting this book feel so much more comfortable. Just that that's just an observation that I've had over the last few months. It's really been an amazing experience.   Michelle (52:22) awesome to hear. And yeah, it's like anything. Everything has like the pluses and minuses. And I think that that's what it is. If you come into social media, really taking advantage and using it for the good. It's like anything. It's like money. You know, people can say money is evil, but it's actually something that could be used to help a lot of people. So it depends really on the intention behind it. And I think when your intention is connected to purpose, then it's a lot of fun. Then you're like, okay, this is really, yeah.   Jenny Powers (52:35) Right?   The tool. Right.   Yeah.   I like that. I like that connections. Yeah, it's totally. It's totally neat. Yeah. So, so we're on there. Yeah, and they just came out this week. I don't know when this is going to be airing, but the book came out this week. I think we've hit some number one, like bestseller statuses on a couple of different categories. And so it's been a very exciting time.   Michelle (52:51) sucklings.   Awesome. That's great.   Amazing. Well, congratulations on the book. And this is fascinating. And I think it's so important because I think that as a society, we're craving to come back to our origins. We really crave that. And I think that we just, we lost it. And so this rekindles a memory because I think that we do store memories in our DNA. There is that kind of knowing that when we hear something, it resonates as true. There's a reason for that. I think it's cause we just, so it's a memory that got just awakened.   Jenny Powers (53:24) I agree.   Yeah.   my gosh, totally.   Yeah. Yeah. Well, the good news is we still are running our hunter gatherer software. You know what I mean? We still, we have all these capabilities inside of us still. We haven't evolved since, you know, we maybe, for the most part, we haven't evolved since we were hunter gatherers. And it's still in there. We just have to refind, we have to find it. And I think learning about evolution and learning about how we got here,   Michelle (53:51) Yep.   Yes.   Jenny Powers (54:11) will really help us make better decisions now. Because like I said, we can adapt with our minds. We can adapt to anything. We're smart. We just have to do the work.   Michelle (54:21) Yeah.   Yes. Amen. So Jenny, this was an amazing conversation. Thank you so much for coming on and I look forward to any future work that you do.   Jenny Powers (54:33) Thank you, I really enjoyed talking to you today too.  

In this episode of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle addresses common questions about menstrual cycle symptoms, discussing what is considered normal and what might require more attention. Michelle breaks down the phases of the menstrual cycle and explains various factors that can influence cycle regularity and health.   Key Points: Understanding the Menstrual Cycle Normal Menstrual Cycle Range Irregular Menstrual Cycles Common Causes of Irregular Menstrual Cycles Seeking Medical Advice Tips for Supporting Menstrual Cycle Health   Resources for the episode:   Check out my free ebook: The Best Kept Secrets to Harmonizing Your Mooncycle: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/hackyourcycle   Mira: CLICK HERE AND USE COUPON CODE WHOLESOMEFERTILITY FOR 15% OFF!   Tempdrop: CLICK HERE AND USE COUPON CODE AFWHOLESOMELOTUS FOR A DISCOUNTED PRICE!   Check out Michelle's latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   Follow Michelle on Instagram @thewholesomelotusfertility and Facebook https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/  for more tips and updates.   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/     Transcript:   Is this normal? Menstrual cycle symptoms [00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today I'm going to start a new type of series that is going to come every once in a while. And it starts out with, is this normal? Because oftentimes I do get questions, is this normal from my patients? Or sometimes people DM me on Instagram when it comes to their menstrual cycle. So I thought that would be actually a really good thing to do. Idea for the podcast because there are many things that can be normal and there are many things that. might require more attention. So on today's episode, I'm going to talk about what is normal and what is not when it comes to irregular menstrual cycles. So a menstrual cycle in general is not just the period. Sometimes when people hear menstrual cycle, they think of menses or menstruation. And the menstrual cycle itself [00:01:00] starts out from day one, which is the moment a person has a bleed, but not just spotting, but like a full bleed. And so once they have a full bleed that is considered day one of their menstrual cycle. And typically how you would know how long your menstrual cycle is, is because you would mark the first day of a real bleed to the next day of the next cycles full bleed. So whatever time that is, That is the days between your menstrual cycle and so you start out with the bleed and that is the follicular phase of the menstrual cycle where the follicle grows to be ready for ovulation. So typically about mid cycle is when ovulation usually occurs, but of course it's different with every person. And then after ovulation from that point until the first day of the [00:02:00] next cycle or continuous if there's hopefully pregnancy, but that is considered the luteal phase. And typically if you were doing a BBT charting, Just to kind of give you an image in your mind, the follicular phase, the first part of the cycle is about 97 degrees of basal body temperature. And of course it can fluctuate a little up and down. And then the second half is 98 degrees. And. Usually it increases. That's kind of like more of when you look at the yin and the yang. That's more of the yang phase versus the beginning, which is the yin phase. And if you see that the temperature is a little too low or too erratic, those are things that might want to get your attention, maybe to check your thyroid. And go to an OB just to kind of get general labs drawn or a reproductive endocrinologist, which I always recommend anyway, just to kind of get your baseline. [00:03:00] So that being said, that is the menstrual cycle. That's typically, , the different phases of the menstrual cycle. And today I am going to mention what might not seem like a textbook cycle, but it's still within the normal range. So, typically, a textbook menstrual cycle is 28 days between the first day of the first period, and To the second day of the second period, the next period, and that is textbook. And the reason why I say textbook is most of the time people do not follow what is in the textbook. It is the majority of people are around 28 days and usually they will ovulate. Around the middle, like, so about 12 to 14 days is usually when ovulation happens, but that can, that can also shift a little bit depending on the person and within a normal range. So a normal [00:04:00] range of a menstrual cycle can actually be between 21 and 35 days. Although I would say 21 days is short in my book, I would definitely try to extend it a little bit. For me personally, as an acupuncturist, I would like to have it 24 days or more. 35 days can happen and I actually prefer longer than shorter. And the reason is because for pregnancy, you definitely don't want a short luteal phase. You want to have enough time for the egg to mature in the follicular phase and you want to have enough time. For implantation to occur in the luteal phase and if the cycle is too short, you kind of wonder, is there something that's being compromised in the process. So those are the concerns that I would have. It's kind of almost like allowing enough time to cook for lack of a better explanation, but basically that's [00:05:00] what I would. And I'm not sure what you guys prefer personally. Although I've had patients before with, coming in with secondary infertility that have always had 24 23 day cycles and they got pregnant with that cycle multiple times with healthy babies. So it does happen. So I did want to kind of mention that. So if your menstrual cycle is not pretty healthy, Perfectly 28 days, don't let that get you down because it doesn't necessarily mean that you're not going to be able to get pregnant. There is a range but like I said, 21 days for me, even though that's kind of like the widely known range, that to me is a little too short. So first, let's cover what is considered like an irregular menstrual cycle or what seems to be something that would be looked at as Not normal. So some of the things that can happen is when cycle lengths vary. So every single month, it's different. One month, it's like 26 [00:06:00] days. Another month, it's 35 or longer and it really goes all across the board. There's no regularity. And when I see that, I think to myself, like the pulse is not regular. There's something's off with the pulse. So if you think about it, it's kind of like, I can compare it to like an irregular heartbeat, but I also don't want to cause any major concern. I mean, I had irregular periods for 12 years before I got my own. So. Checked and taken care of, but to me, something was off with my rhythm and eventually it can be something that can get worked out. So this is more for you just to kind of keep in mind that if that is the case, look into seeing your doctor. but also possibly seeing a practitioner and really like figure out what's happening beneath the surface that's causing the pulse to not be regular. Another thing is missed [00:07:00] periods, which is what I went through. So are you having it every other month? Are you having it every three months? Every month and a half like what's going on? Like why is it so long? Why are you getting missed periods again? This is another form of the rhythm not being a strong pulse or is your cycle extremely short? 23 days or less. Like I said, they consider 21 days to be within like the bottom range, but I personally would like it to be more. So that's another reason you have to really uncover what's going on. Is the follicular phase too short? Is the luteal phase too short? This is one of the reasons why I highly suggest doing BBT charting because it gives you a really good idea of what the pulse looks like from month to month. And even if it is stressful, it is something to kind of consider because it'll help you out in the long run.  And consider even doing [00:08:00] it for a short time or just a couple of months, almost to just measure and see what's going on.  Another concern could be unpredictable menstrual bleeding. So it's just all over the place. You never know when it's going to come. It could be too short. It could be too long. It just comes out of nowhere. Spotting between periods, so when you're ovulating, spotting between periods is really something to look into, there can be many reasons for that. Very heavy or very light periods when it's too scanty, you barely have any blood and it's like barely even fills up a pad. So that's something to consider. Like, why is there not enough blood? Because , when you see the blood, it actually shows you what's happening with your uterine lining and that can be hormonal. It could be many different reasons. Another thing to consider is. not getting periods. So I have seen a case where one woman was not getting periods, but she was ovulating. So if [00:09:00] somebody's ovulating, but not bleeding, they need to look into, is there scar tissue adhesions? Like what's going on? What's causing the blood to not bleeding? happen or the uterine lining to not increase. Something's really getting in the way of that. So that's something to consider as well. Now, if you get occasional irregular periods and you find that during those months you were traveling, you might've gotten sick. You know, there's some people that have had it with COVID or the flu. Or you're stressed, you have increased stress or you're working out a little too much. Those kinds of things are actually normal variations. It's just the body is responding to some kind of stress or that there's more of a load. And it's such a perfect example of something that I often say is that the body really needs a lot of energy in order to support its reproductive health. So this is like a perfect example of that. That sometimes things happen and people go through [00:10:00] grief, just unexpected events in life. can throw off that pulse and just kind of think about it as almost like a weather pattern that's out of norm. And all of a sudden, boom, a wind hits you from the side and that throws off that normal pulse. So then you go back on track and you're back to normal. So that can explain that. Sometimes you can have mild variation, so it's not really a huge difference. Just a few days, but really the things to consider are if you're not getting a period, obviously that's not normal. That's something to look into. And if you're getting your period way too soon. every single time. And there's no rhyme or reason or there's severe pain or excessive heavy bleeding. And of course you really need to get that checked out immediately  Because there are certain dangerous situations, and you don't want to excessively heavily bleed in general. And then severe pain could be even an ectopic pregnancy, [00:11:00] so those kind of things would definitely prompt a visit to the ER. So some causes of irregular menstruation are conditions like PCOS or thyroid disorders. Which is why it's important to go to a doctor and get a baseline test to make sure that everything's going well and that there's no underlying health factors that are causing issues with the menstrual cycle. So another thing is something called hypothalamic amenorrhea, and that is when a person expends more energy than their body is able to keep up with. So when the body is at a deficit of energy through stress or through lifestyle, like over exercise or through not eating, so they're at a deficit of the calories that they need, to support their reproductive health. That will cause the body to start to switch gears, focus [00:12:00] more on survival than it does on the reproductive health. And it shuts down hormone production, slows everything down. So it really is important to make sure that you're getting sufficient sleep and sufficient energy and with food and protein. because reproductive health demands a lot of energy  and high stress can lower progesterone, which can also impact your menstrual cycle and cause mid cycle bleeding. Other factors are just overall stress. So stress in general takes a lot of energy out of your body. So whether it's physical stress, emotional stress just not getting enough sleep. All of those things can impact a menstrual cycle, significant weight loss or weight gain. So I've seen people that have a high BMI or a low BMI similarly have issues with ovulation [00:13:00]and menstrual cycles. Other medical conditions can be endometriosis, which can cause really, really painful periods. Sometimes people will feel it in their back and they'll also tend to have gut issues. That is something that can only be diagnosed through something called a laparoscopy. So if a doctor tells you when you go to a doctor that they did an ultrasound and that you have endometriosis, I would get another opinion because they cannot tell you that and confirm that you have endometriosis unless they actually go in through a laparoscopy, which is a  surgical procedure when they go in and they check, because there is no other way to diagnose endometriosis. Endometriosis and also never self diagnose. You really want to confirm. So just because you have painful periods doesn't mean you have endometriosis and then uterine [00:14:00] fibroids. If, depending on the location that they're in, if they're inside the uterus on the actual area where the uterus sheds, it can cause really, really heavy bleeding. Endometriosis. Endometriosis. If they're within the muscle of the uterus or outside of the uterus, that usually does not impact fertility and it also doesn't really impact the menstrual cycle. Pelvic inflammatory disease can cause a lot of pain and it can also cause issues with menstrual cycles and pain during sex as well. Other factors that I've seen are birth control methods. So like birth control pills, people who have been on them for years and years and years and then as soon as they come off they don't get their period back right away. And I say right away because most of the people, actually all of the people that I've seen that have had post birth control amenorrhea Have gotten their period back. So acupuncture works really [00:15:00] well on getting a period back if it's lost, especially with birth control pill, but also with PCOS. I've had great success with that. So it is a really good way to. get that pulse back. And that's kind of what I found. Certain medications can impact menstrual cycle, environmental toxins xenoestrogens. So those are things to definitely keep in mind when it comes to other factors that can cause issues with menstrual cycles. So if you think or suspect that there's some kind of issue or abnormality with your ovulation or that your cycle's too short, too long, and you want to look into more what's going on my first thing is always get your baseline from an OB or a reproductive endocrinologist. If you're actively trying to conceive and you're listening to this podcast, most likely you are, [00:16:00] then I would definitely go to a reproductive endocrinologist and get your baseline. And if you're not interested in IVF, that's fine. They might suggest it to you. Just go. Knowing that you're going really to get the baseline test first and then you can decide whatever you want but it's good to get the information and They will know what to look for and that's kind of what's What is really good about going to a reproductive endocrinologist is because they'll really look for everything when it comes to conception and what is getting in the way of conception. So I would also highly suggest to do BBT charting. I kind of brushed upon that before, but BBT charting for at least three months because you want to see if your ovulation is normal. a happening B when it's happening and also is it regular? Is it, is the pulse normal? Like, is it [00:17:00] always the same or is it shifting all over the place? If it's the same, it's amazing because then you'll know more or less really what your regular time is. And then of course you can work on that. And if you do decide to go to practitioner, that is great information for the practitioner to know because based on that, at least for me, When I find out what's going on, I actually could work out a lot of the kinks with herbs and supplements and acupuncture. So all of those things could definitely help because if I know the temperature is low, I can work on that. I can increase it with herbs. I can do something called moxa. So that's really great information for. A practitioner to know and some Ayurvedic practitioners or nutritionists can also work it out  , so a lot of people know how to shift things based on their knowledge and their perspective. And it is a lot easier to do that if we know what's really [00:18:00] going on beneath the surface. As far as the temperature goes and like what the rhythm is. Another alternative is there are certain bracelets and devices that you can put on your arm like the Ava bracelet that goes on your wrist or TempDrop that goes on your arm and those are great because they will check your, skin temperature.  And based on that, they can see when you're ovulating and where you are in your cycle and when your fertile window is, which is awesome. And if you don't want to do that, you can also do something like Mira or Inito, which is basically little test trips. That check not just your LH, which is typically what you'll find from over the counter OPK kits which OPK stands for ovulation predictor kits. But this actually will monitor the different types and it'll give you a nice little graph and tell you what's normal, what's [00:19:00] not normal. They have an app. And if you want, I actually have a discount code for Mira, which I'm going to put in the episode notes. So you can check that out. So those are the three ways I would recommend if you really want to get confirmation. If you ovulated, , I wouldn't say I would rely on the LH sticks. They can be confusing, especially if you have PCOS and you really just are getting information about your brain releasing LH, which is trying to get the body to Ovulate, but you don't really know or can't confirm if the ovulation actually happened just based on the LH6. So if ovulation isn't really happening, it can be very confusing. So here are some tips that you can do, which generally speaking. Are going to help your body with fertility and reproductive health and are going to support your menstrual cycle health and number one is stress management. It is really, really important [00:20:00] to counteract a lot of the demands that We are having in general, like in general life, modern day times, but also all of the demands that especially are heavier during the fertility journey. So things like meditation, which I can go on and on about, which I'm sure you kind of figure that out. And even yoga, which I consider to be like an intelligent exercise. and it works really well with calming the nervous system and your nervous system matters. And this is one of the reasons I think that acupuncture works so well for fertility. It works amazing on the nervous system. It calms the body, calms the mind, and it allows your body, because when you're in this state of calm, you're able to sleep better. Your body's able to regulate itself and hormones start to regulate. So those things are really important. And then also not skipping breakfast. If you want to do an intermittent fasting, if you [00:21:00] are trying to lower the BMI, that would be the only time I would suggest to do something that is not quite intermittent fasting. Like you'll hear about it normally, but it's just eating earlier. Like having your last meal around 5 or 6 PM. Transcription Outsourcing, LLC.  And then consider working with a practitioner or somebody who really understands PCOS if that's what you have to address it with diet. And there's certain supplements that can really help. And you can do acupuncture and even massage. I'm a huge fan of because it really helps calm the nervous system. Also be sure that you're eating enough. Not under eating and not over eating. Avoid processed foods. Try to eat as many whole foods as possible and many whole food ingredients as [00:22:00] possible.  And lastly, connect with mother nature. So studies show that sleeping at certain times is better, more supportive for menstrual cycle health. One of the things that I actually forgot to mention is that sometimes shift work can impact ovulatory function and menstrual cycle function. So it's important to anchor your circadian rhythm by getting early morning sunlight. Allowing your eyes to feel the sun, so don't look directly in the sun, but allow the sun to hit your eyes from the side so that your eyes are processing that it's daytime. By doing that, you're going to anchor your circadian rhythm and that's going to impact your mental cycle rhythm, but it's also going to help your sleep wake cycle and it's also going to help your sleep. So, it is one of the hands down best practices. Besides meditation that I often recommend, and then also earthing, putting your feet on the earth. and really connecting with nature because we're talking about [00:23:00] this huge pulse and the nature always has its pulse and it continues to have that. So we always can anchor to that and use that pulse that nature has in order to help our own pulse, which is for women, the menstrual cycle. So I hope you enjoyed this episode. And if you have any questions, you could definitely DM me on my Instagram, which is at the wholesome Lotus fertility. And thank you so much for tuning in today. And I hope you have a beautiful day.

This solo episode delves into the profound impact of meditation on fertility and overall health. Highlighting the often overlooked aspect of mindset, Michelle explains how stress and the resulting cortisol levels can negatively affect reproductive health. She shares her personal insights from over 20 years of meditation practice and references ancient wisdom as well as modern research, including Dr. Joe Dispenza's work on the mind-body connection.   Key Points Discussed: Introduction to Meditation Mind-Body Connection: Practical Meditation Tips: Overcoming Common Meditation Challenges: Protecting Energy and Boundaries: Meditation Techniques and Benefits:   Check out Michelle's latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   Follow Michelle on Instagram @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ for more tips and updates.   For more information about Michelle, visitwww.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/     Transcript:   Meditation and fertility [00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orvitz, and it's been a while since I have done my solo podcast episode. And today I wanted to talk about the role of meditation and enhancing fertility. And I've talked about meditation before, but it is such an important topic that I want to talk about it again.   And so today I'm going to talk about the benefits of mindfulness or just meditation, many different types of meditation. And why it's so important when it comes to overall health and fertility health. It is often one of the things that is really missed and taken off the list. Many people who come to work with me, whether it's online or in person, they share with me that they're eating the right things, taking the right supplements, they did everything. And most of the time when I ask about the mindset aspect, it is not the same. That really [00:01:00]priority. So it is something that I find myself really taking like a session or two just discussing because it's something that can be very abstract. And of course it's invisible. Our mindset, how we think is often something that runs in the background.   And it's kind of like this programming that we have that's in the background of our life. And we often don't pay attention to it. We often actually get distracted and don't even realize that our reaction to things that are outside of us. comes from our mindset. And there are many different ways that we can react. There's many different ways that we can take it in. And so there are aspects of our mindset that we don't even realize are happening. And we may not even realize that they can impact our hormones, they can impact our sleep, and they can even impact our cravings and what we [00:02:00] eat. So this is why. I say that although it's invisible and although it is very abstract to really look at, it is so important. And it's probably, if anything, the number one priority that I usually try to address when I work with patients and when I work with my patients. Customers online.   So I know that there's also a debate on stress and fertility, and there's always the argument that people at war times are really, really stressful events, get pregnant. And while this is true and a valid argument. That doesn't take away from the fact that when people stress, that increases cortisol, and cortisol is a hormone, and that can impact many different things for both men and women, and we know that men's nervous system can impact male [00:03:00] reproductive health. And for women, cortisol competes with progesterone, and it can impact progesterone. It can also impact sleep, which has a cascade of events. It can impact hormone production and hormone  regulation. So all of these things are very important and stress does impact the body and how , the state of mind is impacts physiology. And we're seeing that. And slowly by slowly we're starting to get a bigger picture through modern research on just how much The mind can, in fact, impact the body and impact reproductive health.   So these are just some examples, but I also have my theory. So my theory is this. is that we have an incredible intelligence, this divine intelligence that programs our body. We have [00:04:00] blueprints in every single cell in our body, and that is the DNA, and it has instructions, it has information, and it can turn on and off. This is called epigenetics. It can turn on and off to be healthy or not healthy, and it can go into a state of health or dis ease, and And this really is something that happens based on our environment and our environment or our internal environment, our blood can have stress hormones or it can have hormones that are more beneficial for growth. And this responds to our state of mind. So we have this incredible vast intelligence within our body. And my belief after meditating for over 20 years, actually more now at this point consistently, I know that when I've gotten quiet[00:05:00] and this is kind of like something that I know just based on my experience.   And this is something that a lot of other meditators will say. And most of the intuitives that I have on the podcast feel that when I ask them, how do you get into your intuition? How do you connect? Most of them will say, or meditate and give yourself that opportunity to connect with that divine intelligence.   So this is what it is is that now we are living at a time where we don't have a lot of opportunity to connect with this divine intelligence. This divine intelligence is available to us because we are made with it. So we can connect with it anytime and part of, if you haven't read my book already, the way of fertility, a big part of really the inspiration for that is based on a lot of the ancient wisdom [00:06:00]that is at the heart of Chinese medicine and also Ayurvedic medicine and a lot of like these old medicines and way of life.   Thank you. And if we look back to what the ancients told us, they gave us a lot of hints and a lot of amazing, amazing information that is so rich with wisdom. And one of the things that you'll find over and over again is that they all point us to go within, which is really interesting. They always say the answer is within, and there's always kind of like this direction to go within. When you do meditate, it makes a lot of sense, but we're living in a world that doesn't even acknowledge the within anymore because there's so much distraction, there's too much information constantly bombarded with lots of information, the algorithm, all this stuff that just comes [00:07:00] at you, whether you're on YouTube, social media, or just the internet.   And while that can be great. And it could be a huge tool. And this is one of the amazing things about technology. I mean, there's a lot of benefits to it. However, there can also be an imbalance with that. And that takes us very, very much away from our wisdom and the quiet within and that part of us that knows, and this is why. I feel like it's so important to really make that space to connect with yourself because your body is so smart. It communicates with you. You can communicate with it. And my philosophy, my own perspective on this, through Chinese medicine is one of the things that I know is that the reason we do acupuncture, the big reason, I mean, obviously there's so many different people with so many different [00:08:00] needs and acupuncture is different based on those needs.   However, one of the biggest ways it works is it really creates an opening so that the chi or life force within the body, which is intelligent, by the way, that is able to go into areas that don't have as much, either they're blocked from excess or they're deficient. And they need more of that energy and more of that intelligence and more of that consciousness to fill it because once it does, then the life force comes back and that life force or that area that's, I guess you can say being ignored, because there are blockages or there's some kind of reason why.   That life force is not getting to it. Those areas can get that consciousness, that life force. And when you [00:09:00]meditate and you focus even within your body, you can actually bring that life force just with your awareness alone. So you may know that I'm a huge fan of Dr. Joe Dispenza's work. I've been to three of his retreats. Two of them were a week long, incredible, incredible retreats. And I see people overcoming major terminal diseases just from his retreats alone and also the practices that he shares. And one of the practice is. really paying attention and bringing your focus into the energy centers of the body and he'll go through the different energy centers, which in ancient times were called chakras and paying attention to them, just bringing your awareness to them brings life. So it kind of is like [00:10:00] light, almost like the light of your consciousness. You can imagine is like the light of the sun and infusing a plant or some life force living thing.   And, I think it's pretty cool because a lot of what he does and a lot of the work that he does and the meditations that he does, he actually has a research team that comes with him and they research and study. probably close to half of the participants at the retreats and they see how the meditations impact them and how they literally shift and change their way of being.   And I remember one of the things that he talked about was That when you're laying down, he has you laying down after the meditation and he said it's really good for regulating the nervous system. And when you're laying down, he said you're able to absorb almost like how hypnosis works and you're able to gain [00:11:00] suggestion or like get a programming.   But he said, it's not a programming of anything that anybody's saying. It's connecting to this vast intelligence. that we're all a part of, that we all come from. He talks about it as the quantum field of infinite possibilities, but this intelligence, this coherence that starts to happen. And the ancient used to look at it as the yin and yang balance. They looked at the harmony between the elements. They described it in different ways, but they're all pointing to the same thing. And the bottom line is, is that we are part of this vast Intricate, incredible intelligence. And when it's healthy, when it's working optimally, it is working with coherence. And when it's not.   It's moving away from that. There's less consciousness. There's less intelligence. There's a blockage to that intelligence. And you can say that's like a blockage to the chi because the chi is not just life force. Life force cannot be without the intelligence [00:12:00] that's running it. So when you are not connected to that, and that's where a lot of people have listened to some gurus talking about meditation, it's really connecting to cosmic energy, cosmic intelligence.   There's a difference between the energy that you get when you're sleeping, although very important. And there's a difference between the energy you get when you're meditating and connecting with cosmic intelligence. And so that cosmic intelligence feeds your body. And when it feeds your body, it gets you closer to better health. And as we know, fertility health relies on good health, and you need to have an overflowing amount. of nutrients, energy, chi, blood, really an overflowing. Why? Because in order to sustain another extra life, you need that overflowing of energy. When you have difficult emotions [00:13:00] and you are experiencing things that are very draining, which often can be counteracted with meditation, because meditation helps you even out that energy so that When triggers come, they will not zap you as much as they would if you're not energy consolidated, which is what happens with meditation. This is kind of part of meditation. It's a side effect, but a good side effect, one that is welcome. And that one that feels really good when you're actually getting that. So when you're able to do that and it protects you, it almost has a layer of energetic protection when you are experiencing a challenge, you're able to regulate and come back to yourself faster. And I'll tell you one thing, emotions when we're talking about an overflow of energy and all the things that we really need, because reproduction is so energy consuming. When you do experience really difficult emotions, those things [00:14:00] can really zap you out.   Your energy and we've all experienced those times where either we deal with drama or something comes up or a really difficult exchange We at the end of the day are so drained And so that's why it's very very important to protect your energy Part of it and this is kind of a side note is boundaries. Honestly, like Cutting out maybe temporarily certain relationships that are too draining. This is something that you need to protect. You need to protect your fertility journey. Like going through this is very, very taxing as it is. So it's important really to work on your energy. And one of the biggest key ways really is meditation is really allowing yourself to experience the emotions that come up, sit with it. Feel it. And I will say some of the most common things that cause resistance in a lot of my patients or my clients. These are [00:15:00] the common things that I hear when it comes to meditation and after I suggest meditation. The first one is, I just can't sit still. Well, I have news for you. Nobody can, it's because the mind is called a monkey mind for a reason, because it goes from, it's like a swinging from one branch to the next, to the next, to the next, and that is your thoughts.   So that is the typical nature of everybody's mind. It goes from one thought to the next. That's normal. So you're not really meant to stop thinking when you're meditating. You are building a muscle of your attention so that when you do have thoughts, you become aware of them. You catch yourself. You don't judge yourself. You don't say, no, no, I shouldn't be thinking, or no, no, this is bad. You just observe it. neutrally and then go back to your breath or go back to the mantra, whatever it is that you're anchoring in. You repeat that over and over and over[00:16:00] again until you can start shifting that habit of getting lost in the thought. When that happens, naturally you will learn to become more present when you are facing a trigger. So a trigger comes up. You feel it, but then your awareness becomes stronger than the trigger because you're meditating, you're training your mind to notice things. And that is when it doesn't have a hold on you. That's why some people can really get sucked into that trigger and then other people can get into the state of the executive mind function and not get triggered emotionally. When we get triggered emotionally, which does happen and there's nothing wrong with that. But when we get triggered emotionally, those are those moments that zap us the most.   So this is really about empowering your mind so that you're able to consolidate your energy as much as possible,[00:17:00] because ultimately that is going to benefit you overall if you're on the fertility journey. Another common block I see for people who are first trying to meditate is that they believe that it doesn't do anything. And, and that's another mind perspective. So the mind will give you thoughts about things to do. To deter you. It's almost like a little trickster, that freaking mind. It'll give you thoughts and it will plant ideas and you can either bite and take them as fact or realize, wait, that's just the thought. Let me keep doing this to explore. And so your mind is going to convince you that you're not doing anything, or your mind is going to convince you that you need to do a lot more or you're going to get bored. Here's the thing. If you're used to being on a certain pace all the time, it's going to feel strange at [00:18:00] first to shift that piece and get to a receptive yin state. So the yin and the yang. Yang is pretty much. Like the majority of everything right now in our world, it's just, everything's go, go, go. And too much of that burns out energy. So we need to go back to the yin. Meditation is a more yin, receptive state. And doing that, shifting gears is the most uncomfortable thing. Shifting realities, shifting gears, shifting rhythms can be very uncomfortable if you prepare yourself for that in the beginning of your meditation practice, meaning when you first start to slow down, meditate and create a practice routine, then you know that that discomfort will not last forever.   When you know that it's temporary and it's just shifting of gears, it's the turbulence that happens when you're shifting levels of consciousness. When you prepare yourself [00:19:00] for that and you just know that, then it doesn't feel as difficult. And another thing that can really help with that is becoming aware of that. Hey, That's interesting with curiosity, kind of paying attention. I feel a little agitated. What does that look like? What does that feel like? So instead of going to the thoughts of that, start feeling what your body feels like when you're experiencing that become observant of that. It's like looking at a picture upside down. You're starting to notice different things. You look at the shapes. So you're breaking down the experience of what that feels like. So that it's not so scary and your knee jerk reaction is not going to be to resist it because ultimately that's what it does. Your mind will have you resist things or get too attached and that's the push and pull that happens that causes us to have suffering.   This is what Buddha taught about. about how desire, like strong desire or strong resistance are the two [00:20:00]things that cause us to suffer because we're basically saying no to now, like what's happening right now shouldn't be, it's either missing something or it has too much of something. And meditation gets us into the neutrality of seeing things as they are without judgment. And so that we become more empowered In this moment. So ultimately a lot of what I like to put on the podcast are things that are empowering  and my top, top, top thing would be start a meditation practice daily. So one of the ways you can start a meditation practice that will be, in my opinion, a more successful way to start is to start out with just a few minutes a day. what happens is you're not going to give yourself too big of a task of meditation for too long. You just start with a couple of minutes a day. And even with like [00:21:00] five minutes a day, you're still going to get benefits just even with five minutes a day, allowing yourself The opportunity to connect with that divine intelligence, five minutes a day in the beginning. And the thing is, anybody can come up with five minutes a day. Even if you're extremely busy, you can wake up five minutes earlier and just meditate in the morning. So it's all a perspective. So what happens is when you do five minutes a day, or even a short amount of time daily, every single day, repeatedly, your mind will realize and come to terms with the fact that you now have a new habit and five minutes a day is so doable that you can make it easy to repeat something over and over and over again if it's very short and then your mind will accept it as this new thing. Once your mind starts to accept it and it becomes more natural and intuitive for you to do, [00:22:00]then You're going to even feel naturally. inclined to increase the time because your mind will start to settle over time and then it's going to want to have more of that quiet and crave it at times. And you're going to feel that it feels really good because it's going to make you feel more clear in your mind.   And you'll find that it also saves you time. So even though you're taking time out to do it, your mind will start to work more efficiently. You'll be more clear minded and more intuitive and more sharp with your work that things that usually took you longer you'll find start to get done faster. So some of the things that I would suggest if you are new to meditation that are really, really simple is every day find one specific spot in your house. that feels comfortable. It could be a room. It could be something that you're a room that[00:23:00] you're in, but maybe a little corner where you can sit down on a cushion or you could sit down on a chair or a couch anywhere that feels comfortable and quiet. And you do want to set it up so that you're not going to get interrupted for the time that you're meditating. My suggestion is this, do not do this on your bed because naturally your body associates your bed with sleep and you will fall asleep. Don't get discouraged if you do fall asleep. Sometimes people nod off and then they come back. That's okay. That's just your nervous system regulating. What I do suggest is regardless if you cross your legs or if you have your feet on the floor, always have your spine erect so that you're not laying down. I also suggest having your hands on your knees and the palms facing up. receiving energy. And you could choose to focus on a couple of different things. You can choose to focus on your breath. [00:24:00] You could choose to repeat a mantra in your mind, , and you can look up seed mantras, Which are ancient Sanskrit mantras that have an energetic frequency, even if you're thinking them in your mind. Or you could literally start to focus on the sensations in your body and scan your body and all the sensations that you're feeling at the present moment. And really bring yourself back to your body and seeing how certain thoughts impact your body and where you're feeling energetically certain emotions, because that brings more consciousness to that area. You could literally spend a whole five minutes just focusing on the uterus and focusing on that area and really, really putting your consciousness into that. The bottom line is you are finding different ways to anchor yourself into the present moment. So whether it's body sensations or a mantra or just focusing on the breath, all of those things are happening in the now. So you're training [00:25:00] your mind to focus on the present moment. That being said, you're going to find yourself wandering off and that's perfectly normal and okay. It's part of what you're doing. You're training your consciousness to catch yourself. You're catching and then you're bringing back, catching, bringing back. So you catch yourself going off, you bring yourself back to whatever it is that anchors you in the present moment.   If you find yourself incredibly uncomfortable, do not let that discourage you. Keep going. It's one of those things. When you first start working out, you're not going to feel really easy. lifting those weights. It's going to be uncomfortable. It's going to be painful. It's going to make you sore for the next couple of days. It's the same thing. Growth and shifts and changes don't happen easily. There's got to be some kind of discomfort sometimes, and that's okay. It's being comfortable with the discomfort because If you're allowing yourself to be comfortable with [00:26:00] being uncomfortable, eventually you're going to find that the things that make you uncomfortable in life will not have a hold on you as much. And you're going to feel more smooth and easy with your energy overall. And I can say for me personally, meditation has changed my life and I speak to a lot of patients and clients and I see how it impacts them and also impacts their fertility and their menstrual cycle. It's incredible. Meditation is an incredible, incredible free medicine that we all have access to and it is one of the most overlooked things. Although now, I guess it's becoming a little bit more of a thing of recent times, but I definitely highly suggest if that is something that you've not looked into or if that's something that you thought You just are not meant to do. I really hope that this episode [00:27:00] Shifted your perspective on that and if you have any questions, you can always DM me on Instagram.   I'm always there I'm pretty quick to respond Most times if I can and my handle is at the wholesome lotus fertility So I really hope you enjoyed this episode and I hope you have an amazing day.

Kathryn Bregman Ed.S. struggled for years to become pregnant.  She tried every diet, lotion and potion she could find.  She endured two rounds of failed egg retrievals until she realized her body was pristine, but her mind did not feel balanced.  She was suffering from stress and information overload. She was exhausted, defeated and depressed. Even though she was already in therapy, Kathryn hired a fertility mindset coach, which changed everything.  Within 6 months she got pregnant naturally and gave birth to a healthy baby girl at 40. After that, Kathryn made it her mission to spread the word of what she learned to completely transform her outcome. Today she is a Certified Life Coach and a Certified Miracle Minded Master Coach. She's also the only fertility coach in the world who trained directly under Marianne Williamson learning exclusive and cutting-edge coaching techniques. She works with private clients across the globe and runs online group programs where women find the authentic support that they need to become the moms they are meant to be.   You can find out more about Kathryn at: www.badassfertility.com Instagram: @BadassFertility Free ebook: https://badassfertility.com/fb-ad-habits/   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Check out Michelle's latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Catherine.   Kathryn Bregman (00:02) Hi, thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. It's an honor to be on your show and speak with you today.   Michelle (00:10) I'm so happy you're here as well, Catherine, and I'd love for you to share your inspiring story and how you got to do this work.   Kathryn Bregman (00:13) Thank you.   Absolutely, I would love to share I became inspired to be a fertility coach and work with women who are on the journey to their babies because when I was struggling to become pregnant with my daughter, who I had at 40, after struggling for about four years to conceive, after being advised to use donor different things like that, I realized that a huge,   part of my struggle in my journey was, well, there were physical things that I'll talk about in a moment. There was a lot going on in my head space that was a huge block for me because when I first started trying to conceive with my husband, I was 36. We got married, you know, 36, and I was like, already felt behind, you know, was super concerned about.   whether or not we'd be able to conceive. I'd always had like heavy periods, but never been diagnosed with anything in particular. So I felt like nervous and a little wary. And after about trying for just two months or so, we decided to use an ovulation kit. We used an ovulation kit and I got pregnant right away. And I remember thinking, my God, why do people struggle to conceive? Just use an ovulation kit.   Michelle (01:33) Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (01:41) Like it's so simple, hello, right? And then a couple of weeks later, we lost that pregnancy. And I did not get pregnant again for several years, no matter how hard I tried, no matter what we did. And I'll talk kind of briefly about that as And so it was like a famous last words kind of a And...   So after trying for about another year, you know, we did acupuncture, which I love. I'm a huge fan of acupuncture, a huge fan of herbs. I think it was really integral on my journey, but there was more blocking me that I had to get through, right? And so after about a year of trying, you know, naturally and using acupuncture, we were advised to do IVF. And when we went to do IVF, I got like a laundry list of physical ailments that...   were in my way, including a lot of stuff that I'm sure from a traditional Chinese medicine perspective, you would say is like inflammation and gut health, right? But at that point in time, I didn't know that. I just knew like, you have elevated natural killer cells, you have endometriosis, you're pre -diabetic, even though I considered myself like very healthy, very healthy eater, exercised, all those things. It was like I didn't have the right quote unquote health for fertility, right? And so,   Michelle (03:01) Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (03:02) We were advised to go straight to IVF and we did two rounds of egg retrievals. retrieved about three embryos in each, but none of them came back genetically normal after we did genetic testing. So I was pretty devastated at that point, as you can imagine, as anyone who's been on this journey can imagine. We'd been trying at that point for about two years and...   Michelle (03:17) Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (03:27) I was really, I'm like gonna cry talking about this, because I don't usually go into the details, you know, but I was just so lost and filled with shame, fear, self -loathing, you know, you name it. And I started realizing that it was like my mind was a part of the problem. And at that point, I actually started working with a coach who helped me see.   Michelle (03:50) Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (03:54) how mindset was impacting my perception of my entire situation. And I learned to stop being so obsessed with time and stop feeling like I had to rush, rush, rush and like jump into the next egg retrieval and keep going. Because at that point, I think I was probably like 38 getting close to 39. And if you're in the Western medical world, they're like, the clock is ticking every month is gonna decrease your odds.   Michelle (03:59) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (04:22) And so I was really had to step back from that mentality and really start to own what was my truth, right? And so I started to look at, okay, what are the things that I have not addressed? Because I felt like I had addressed everything, right? But after that second egg retrieval, I stepped back and said, okay, one thing I've never really done is I've never really, you know, changed my diet. I think my diet's healthy, but maybe there's something else I can do. I've...   Michelle (04:22) Yeah.   Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (04:51) exercise but I do yoga and Pilates and I was advised to do like more high intensity stuff. So I started shifting you know my diet to what would be considered like a more fertility friendly diet. I started finding the reserves within myself to do things that I didn't feel like I could have done before because my mind was in a place to be willing to go there. You know so for me like it really all started in my mind and then I'm gonna wrap up the story because I know we have a lot more.   to talk about, but I want to share that the linchpin for me was I discovered a physical therapy called Wern and it is like an, yeah, it's an external like massage technique almost, but not relaxing, very intense where they go in and they externally break down the abdominal, the tissues in your abdomen that for me were binding my fallopian tubes. And I'd been advised by my clinic, you don't,   Michelle (05:29) Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (05:48) you know, don't do that, it's just a scam, was basically what they said. But in my gut, which...   Michelle (05:50) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Even though it has research, I know exactly which one you're talking about. They have research, actual papers. Yep.   Kathryn Bregman (05:55) Yes, yes, it has published. Thank you. It has published medical research. It, you know, and I just instinctively was like, this feels right for me. This feels like part of what's my issue and I want to do it. And because I've been working on my mindset and I was like really practicing, trusting my gut, I was like, I'm doing it. You know, and I remember saying to my husband when we left our IVF clinic, when the doctor had said like, it's a waste of your money. Meanwhile, it's like, you know, an eighth of the price of IVF.   I said to my husband, I was like, I don't care what he says, we're doing it. And that was like a real stance for me. Like I really, you know, stood for something that up until that point, I had been kind of like acquiescing to the experts, you know, like you tell me what to do, you tell me what to do. And finally, I was finding my voice and doing what I felt I needed to do. And I went and I worked with an amazing woman, Susan Winograd.   Michelle (06:27) Yeah.   Yes.   Kathryn Bregman (06:49) And she, we did this thing at six days, five days, five days, six hours a day of this physical therapy. And the very next cycle, I was pregnant naturally.   Michelle (07:01) Was that the Wern are you talking about or? Okay.   Kathryn Bregman (07:01) Yeah, so it's called WURN, it's W -U -R -N, and there's another word for it as clear passage, there you go, yeah, yeah.   Michelle (07:09) Clear passage. Yeah, yeah. No, I knew clear passage. so Susan was the lady that worked on you.   Kathryn Bregman (07:15) She was the lady who worked on me, Susan Winograd, and she actually, she works in women's pelvic health. She has a podcast called Pelvicore, and she's an amazing, amazing healer, and she and I worked closely together. It's like, that's it. I was her patient for the week. I went there every day from eight to two or whatever it was, and she did this stuff, and it was very intensive, and it released emotions too. So it wasn't just physical. Yeah, but like -   Michelle (07:18) Okay.   Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Right, I've heard that.   Kathryn Bregman (07:45) childhood memories came back, like trauma came up and things that had been in my body that were literal physical and emotional blocks to my flourishing pelvic And again, for me, like you could say, if only I had done that three years ago, I could have gotten pregnant so much faster. But the truth is I had to be in the right place in my mind in order to even be willing to go there, to do that thing, to...   Michelle (08:09) Yeah.   Right.   Kathryn Bregman (08:14) get into it as deeply as I did. And so for me, and what I find with the women I work with, you know, it all starts in this willingness to start to see things differently and to understand your journey, you know, as an opportunity to like release old trauma, learn ways that your body wants to flourish and be healthy and not see that as a punishment, but a gift,   Michelle (08:26) Right.   happening for you versus happening to you.   Kathryn Bregman (08:41) Exactly, exactly, which is like so antithetical to what anybody wants to like think or feel, you know, when they're going through it. But when you start to make that shift, it's empowering. And that's what it was for me. So I got pregnant naturally. I had my daughter right like three days before I turned 40. And...   Michelle (08:48) Yeah.   Kathryn Bregman (09:02) I never went back for my third egg retrieval.   Michelle (09:04) Yeah, that's amazing. That sounds incredible. And I want to go back to when you were going through it, you know, because a lot of people go through the different phases, just like you said, people need to be ready to know that they want like something different. And so when you were in it, when you were like really in it, like knee deep thick, you know, what were the things that you were telling yourself?   Kathryn Bregman (09:23) Yes.   Hmm, good question. I was filled with fear that it would never happen. So I would look at my friends who have kids, none of whom had struggled the way that I was struggling, and think, you know, it's not like literally in words I would say they're better than me, but I felt shame.   Michelle (09:49) Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (10:00) Like I felt embarrassed. I felt like I didn't want to share what I was going through. Like for the first time, I couldn't be vulnerable with my friends who, you know, I would say up until that point, I had probably told everything that happened in my life. And I just couldn't share it because it was so, you know, for lack of a better word, like embarrassing. Even though now on the other side of it, you know, I can stand here and be like,   Michelle (10:01) Mm.   Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (10:27) There's nothing to be ashamed of. It's not, you know, it's not embarrassing, but when you're in it as a woman, it's a very different thing than anything I had gone through before.   Michelle (10:32) Mm -hmm.   Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, it's interesting how we make meaning of it when you're going through it. But even though it's not like based in absolute truth, it's not true. We know that. It still feels true when you're going through it and it still feels like very real.   Kathryn Bregman (10:47) Yeah.   Yeah, and I think about, you know, up until that point, I never realized how much motherhood defines us in our culture as women, you know, and whether we even want to be moms or don't. Just the idea of making that choice, quote unquote, right? Like that in itself is like putting you in a box. Do you have kids or do you not have kids? What does that say about you as a woman? And I think, you know, I felt...   Michelle (11:10) Mm -hmm.   Right.   Yes.   Kathryn Bregman (11:30) inferior as a woman. Like I was failing my husband, you know, that I was, you know, I even questioned like, would he be better off with someone who, who was fertile, you know, like, and, and we just, and he's, he's like my soulmate partner, you know? So to question oneself on that level just shows like how deep that like,   Michelle (11:46) Mm -hmm.   Yeah.   Kathryn Bregman (11:58) yearning for children is and how complicated it becomes when we struggle to make that dream come true emotionally, you know, not just physically.   Michelle (12:09) Yeah, I hear that a lot. I hear that a lot from my patients and the people I work with is, you know, that's my one job as a woman, like that kind of like that repeated thought pattern. And, really sad to see, you know, people going through that and really like, and even when they're saying that they're like, I know it's not fully true. I know that that's not the truth that I'm not broken. Like they know that, but they still struggle with feeling that.   Kathryn Bregman (12:14) Yeah.   Yeah.   Right.   Exactly, exactly. And that's the thing that we really work on in the BFP, which is the group program that I run. We look at the thoughts and the feelings and the actions. And when feelings come up, like I feel inferior, right? What are the thoughts that then come into your mind? And how does that affect what you're willing to do or not willing to do in order to become pregnant?   Michelle (12:50) Mm -hmm.   Right. Definitely. And so when you were talking about blocks also in your body or blocks emotionally that were impacting your body, did you ever feel or get to this place where you can actually feel that in your body? I'm sure during the clear passage was probably something that awoke in a lot of it to you, but like, were there times where you literally felt it in your body?   Kathryn Bregman (13:32) felt like when you say that like blocks or like energetic blocks or yeah.   Michelle (13:34) Yes, like blocks, energetic blocks or emotions. Were you ever able to make the connection of how that felt in your body?   Kathryn Bregman (13:43) interesting question. I mean, I think that...   I know, like, I don't know if this exactly answers it, but what's kind of coming to mind for me when you say that is I think about my lifelong relationship with my period. And I know that for most of my life, you know, it was heavy and crampy, and I really kind of resented it. You know, I had a very...   Michelle (13:58) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (14:12) like almost animosity towards my period because it seemed like it would disrupt my life. It would throw me off. You know, I would have always taking like a lot of my doll or whatever to manage it. And, you know, it wasn't until I started trying to become pregnant that I realized that that whole entire that experience is imbalanced, right? And that that wasn't actually necessary. And that, you know, if I'd met someone like you, I could have healed that so much sooner, you know.   Michelle (14:34) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (14:42) And so even though I don't know if that's really a block, but I know that I feel like that resentment towards my period was also rooted in some other feelings about being a woman, about being a woman and being like as a vulnerable, disempowering experience as opposed to a powerful one. So.   Michelle (14:58) Mm -hmm.   Right.   Right.   Kathryn Bregman (15:07) Those things that are most vital to our experience of our femininity, our ability to procreate, our ability to embrace our sensuality, our ability to, you know, really express our feminine side and use it as a source of power. For me, I was always like, it was always in my way. You know, it was always like a hindrance as opposed to a powerful tool. Yeah.   Michelle (15:12) Mm -hmm.   Mm, yeah.   That's interesting. You know, as you're talking, I'm thinking like it's really, it comes down to our relationship with our body. And it's often something that because it's like anything that's really mindset, I find that it's very hard for people to really wrap their minds around literally. Because it's, it's abstract. And it's something that sort of is in the background and we can't really touch it and feel it. I mean, we can feel it, but   Kathryn Bregman (15:41) Yeah.   Michelle (16:01) It's, it's a little bit more abstract in the sense that we have to concentrate to feel it. Because when we're distracted with outside world, we're not going to really become aware of it until something hits us. And they were like, wait, wait, something's off. And that's, I always say that that's your higher intelligence speaking with you. So like symptoms, things that come up, difficulties in life. any kind of resistance really where life resists you or you feel resistance towards life.   And of course it's like every action has the opposite reaction. So you feel like life is doing that to you. And sometimes it's a reflection of, of some kind of inner turmoil that's happening. And so it's kind of like a diagnosis of sorts, you know, obviously this isn't a technical diagnosis. I just want to get a throw. I'm not saying this literally, but like in a sense of, just really coming in and tuning in, like what is happening? Is there disharmony happening within me, within my life?   Kathryn Bregman (16:35) Yeah.   Yeah.   Again.   Right. Yeah.   Michelle (16:59) And that is the great intelligence. And it's actually such an amazing aspect of our life, like our body's symptom, all of those things. It really shows us so much about our inner terrain.   Kathryn Bregman (17:03) Exactly.   It really does. And I think that, you know, reproduction is one of the most amazing, like, synthesises of the mind and the body. You know, like, it's not like if you have a broken arm, you know, there's like a very obvious problem. But when you're talking about something like fertility, you know, what I found in my experience, and I'm sure you've seen this and I see it with the women I work with, it's like,   Michelle (17:29) Yeah.   Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (17:46) It's so multi -layered, you know? And for every woman, it's going to have, yeah, like these different components to it based on her own experiences, her own physicality, her own history in every part of herself, her emotional, her physical, her spiritual being, you know? And I think that until I was able to step back and really, like,   Michelle (17:49) yeah, big time.   Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (18:15) embrace all of that until I could see it as not just a physical ailment, but as a more like complex representation of me and not be intimidated by that, but like energized by it. You know, then I was able to really like make headway in my journey. And that's what I've seen with so many of the women I work with is like, once you can start to see this as not a punishment, you know, like we're saying, or,   Michelle (18:25) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Yeah.   Kathryn Bregman (18:44) a problem to be fixed, but rather like you said, symptoms that are showing us what's happening within us and how we can take action to heal ourselves.   Michelle (18:56) Mm -hmm.   It's interesting because there's so much choice in that. And sometimes we don't feel like we have a choice when we're in these really difficult things, we're like, well, you know, look what's happening. And we feel like we don't have a choice, which is a natural, it's, it's, it's all a progression. But then sometimes when you do actually realize and become aware of your own relationship with what's happening.   Kathryn Bregman (19:02) Yeah.   Michelle (19:26) It feels at first like you're admitting defeat.   Kathryn Bregman (19:29) Yeah.   Michelle (19:30) but it could be the single most powerful empowering thing you can do.   Kathryn Bregman (19:35) Exactly, exactly. It's so true. It's so true. And I love that you said that. Like it feels like you're admitting defeat, but it's actually the most empowering thing you can do. And I think that if you just stop at the defeat part, you are defeated, right? But if you can see beyond that and be like, wait, there's so much that's actually there to support my shift.   Michelle (19:54) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (20:04) then like a whole new world can open up and you know, your fertility can just become boundless.   Michelle (20:12) Yes. Yeah. I have one specific patient in mind and she has insulin resistance and wants to work on the baby and got a negative pregnancy test. So she was really upset. And so, and it was early on in our working together. And I'm thinking, you know, I wanted to shift sort of the perspective that,   You got to take care of yourself. You got to take care of your body. You got to work on that. Like, yes, baby is a beautiful thing and that's what we want, of course, but it's really about you and taking care of yourself and nourishing yourself and that extra added stress of demanding something from your body when your body is like screaming out for help. You know, so it's kind of like re -shifting. Let's take it one step at a time and like,   Kathryn Bregman (20:45) Yes. Yes.   Michelle (20:59) really bring it back to the nurturing that your body's thirsting for. Sometimes it's a little shift in perspective that at first feels like, this isn't exactly what I came for. I came for this, but ultimately it's that shift in perspective that our bodies are trying to communicate with us.   Kathryn Bregman (21:21) That's so true, it's so true. And I think that that's where, you know, when we can release our like death grip on time, because so often, it doesn't even matter the age. Like I've worked with women who were 28 who were worried about the clock. And I've worked with women who are 43 who are worried about the clock, you know? So it's like, it doesn't even matter what age you are, somehow in our minds we're like, it has to happen, you know, or it's never gonna happen. And that fear is actually, you know,   Michelle (21:29) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Yeah.   It's a state of mind. Yes. Yeah.   Kathryn Bregman (21:51) creating more stress and contributing to perpetuating that state of imbalance, you know, whatever the state of imbalance is within one's body. So I think that, you know, you're right when you're saying like it's about nurturing yourself and supporting whatever is, you know, not functioning optimally because then you're going to get to that place where you can really bring in a baby.   Michelle (21:53) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (22:18) And that's a mental and physical shift that has to happen because you have to be willing, you know, mentally, emotionally to, and I don't like, whenever I say let go, I feel like people misinterpret that as saying like, don't do anything. Yeah, and it's not, like it's such a.   Michelle (22:18) Mm -hmm.   Yeah.   or don't care. Yeah, right. I totally understand what you're saying.   Kathryn Bregman (22:40) Yeah, it's like that nuanced understanding, like letting go doesn't even mean no longer trying. It just means like, it's so hard to put in. Yeah, yeah.   Michelle (22:43) Yes.   Right. Finding flow, it's finding flow. So it's interesting because like, you know, you're on the right path when it feels a little more effortless. And I know it sounds and I think it's the belief that gets in the way, our belief and our conditioning that we cannot get to something that we really want unless we work hard.   Kathryn Bregman (22:59) Yes!   Yes, yes, exactly.   Michelle (23:11) And that's just a conditioning view. If you recognize that that is just how you've been conditioned to believe, then it's like all of a sudden, my God, I don't have to suffer. And actually, the more peace and the more good you feel, you know you're on the right path.   Kathryn Bregman (23:18) Yeah.   Yeah, exactly. That is exactly, exactly it. And that conditioning is so interesting because I think, you know, kind of like going back to what we were saying earlier, we have these thoughts and beliefs that we don't really realize we have internalized and that drive a lot of our thinking and decision making. And they really become obvious, I think, on the fertility journey, if you're trying for something and it's not happening. So.   Michelle (23:30) Yeah.   Yes.   Kathryn Bregman (23:56) that idea that like we have to suffer in order to get what we want is so deeply ingrained in our psyche that we don't even realize we're doing it. You know, like we just think that.   Michelle (24:01) Yeah.   Right. We don't even realize it's not true. Like we don't even question it.   Kathryn Bregman (24:12) Exactly. Exactly. And if you can't question it or see it, you have no ability to separate from it and step out of it. You know, right. Yeah. So that's I know. I know. I know. And it never ends like, you know, you just it's just like this lifelong practice, you know, and that's also why I think of the fertility journey as a gift, because.   Michelle (24:23) 100%. Yeah. It's pretty wild.   Right. It never ends.   Kathryn Bregman (24:40) it really brings home these principles that are true in so many aspects of our lives and gives you this opportunity to learn them and then use them when you become a mom, and use them going forward. So I think everyone I know who's gone through this and then come out on the other side is always grateful for it. And as much as that's a hard thing to see at the time, I...   Michelle (24:51) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   It is. Yeah. And it's interesting because you hear people like the sort of the argument against it. Well, I didn't ask to like better myself right now. I didn't ask to be put into this situation. And I get that. however, it doesn't necessarily have to do just with a fertility journey. This is the human condition. This is life. And you know what, when we don't bring that awareness, it's going to creep up other places. It just, that's the way it is. It's the nature. Yeah.   Kathryn Bregman (25:15) Right.   Yes. Yes.   Exactly, exactly, exactly. We don't choose our challenges, you know, but we choose how we handle them. We choose how we go through them. We choose how we live through them. And that's can be a very empowering thing.   Michelle (25:39) Yeah.   Yeah, it can be for sure. And of course, again, like, you know, there's no perfect way to do this either. And I kind of want to throw that out there. Like there's no perfect way. It's just really connecting with yourself. Your higher wisdom is actually customized specifically for you, perfectly for you. And that's what it is, is that there's no perfect standard, but it's your perfect standard, like whatever it is that works for you, that aligns with you. And   Kathryn Bregman (25:57) Yes.   Michelle (26:17) you know, connects with your nature.   Kathryn Bregman (26:19) Absolutely, absolutely. I love hearing you say that. You know, just it resonates for me so much and I love our conversation. I feel like every time I talk to you, I just learn more and it's so grounding. There's something about your presence is just very like soothing. So I think, yeah.   Michelle (26:37) thank you. Well, I love, I love your input too, because I feel like we're definitely on the same track. And it's just really interesting because, again, it's something that is so, it seems to be kind of behind the scenes. So when you were going through this and you finally said, okay, let me get into my body and like really acknowledge how my mind is working, the thoughts that I'm thinking.   Kathryn Bregman (26:52) Mm.   Michelle (27:04) How did you get started? Because I know that when you're in it and you're really in the thick of the emotion, it can be very overwhelming. How do you get to the place where you separate from what you've identified with for so long?   Kathryn Bregman (27:17) It's a good question. I really, it was a process and I started by really just bringing in more forms of support. So like I had said earlier, I started with acupuncture and herbs and then I moved on and at a certain point I was like, I need to go to therapy. I need to.   Michelle (27:41) Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (27:44) Like I started realizing that there were things that had happened in my childhood that could be blocking me. For example, my father passed away when I was two. And yeah, and my whole life I was like, you know, I sort of told the narrative of like, you were too young to be affected by it, right? And so I grew up with this belief, like I was too young to be affected by it. But what I realized was that,   Michelle (27:51) Mm -hmm.   wow.   Yeah.   Kathryn Bregman (28:11) it was playing a role in my fear of conceiving. There was something there about birth and death that was scary to me, and I needed to unpack that. And so going to therapy and looking at just the various relationships in my life and becoming more aware of my physical body too. I went to a somatic therapist and we would do stuff like...   Michelle (28:15) Mm -hmm.   Mm.   Kathryn Bregman (28:38) you know, this emotion is coming up, where do you feel it inside? And becoming more aware of the signals that my internal self was giving me about how I actually felt about things rather than like the stories I was always telling in my mind, you know, that maybe weren't even true. So really finding more ways to connect with my truth and, you know, seeking out other forms of support. I mean, I was like for sure.   Michelle (28:54) Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (29:06) addicted to Dr. Google, you know, like I was constantly like researching whatever I could. And I think that absolutely there were times when that was unhelpful, like Googling, you know, signs of implantation, like 10 times a day for two weeks before my period, every month, knowing that I'd read the same thing over and over again, and knowing that like, I knew it all and I didn't need to do it, but versus...   Michelle (29:08) Mm -hmm. Yep.   Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (29:33) Googling in a way that was really helpful where I found clear passage, you know and knew instinctively like this is for me, you know, so I feel it Yeah, I feel it and then because I was doing the therapy and I was listening to podcasts and I worked with a coach I actually did therapy and coaching because they're different, you know, like one was about my past and the other was about How do you want to live right now? Who do you want to be going forward?   Michelle (29:39) Mm -hmm, right. Yeah, you feel it.   Mm -hmm, mm -hmm.   Right.   Kathryn Bregman (30:01) So, and even as I say this, I'm like, people must be like, this woman is out of her mind. Like, how did she do? Why did she do all these things, you know? But at the end of the day, you've got to. Yes, thank you. You know, because I think that we have to take this opportunity of struggling to conceive and treat it like the opportunity that it is and that it can be and leverage those resources, bring on.   Michelle (30:02) Yes.   sure everybody's relating though. I feel like everybody's relating to this. Yeah.   Kathryn Bregman (30:31) board, the experts who know how to help you uncover the blocks, whether they are emotional, rooted in your past, in your body, all of those things combined because really at the end of the day, more and more, I think we find they're all connected. But needing to look at the different entry points to uprooting the blocks, which is going to be different for each person.   So really like doing all of those things in combination with each other over time. And one thing I will say too, about like four or five months before I conceived, my husband and I went to a five days silent meditation retreat, which, my gosh, yeah, I recommend it for everyone. I would love to do it again someday.   Michelle (31:20) I want to do that so bad.   My husband wouldn't survive though, because he talks so much.   Kathryn Bregman (31:31) It's like a strange experience as a couple because like you kind of want to communicate but you can't talk, you know, so it's like it's a strange dynamic but it was so good and so powerful and it set the tone for me to start doing like a mindfulness meditation practice every morning for just five minutes and I really found that that five minutes and then over time, you know, my practice has evolved but just that five minutes.   Michelle (31:49) Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (31:58) is like the foundation for me of finding that connection to my inner self, setting myself up for the day to respond to that inner voice, to hear it and to trust it. And that was transformational. You know, it gave me like a good foundation in that experience to then carry it on in this small but consistent way.   Michelle (32:03) Hmm.   Right.   Kathryn Bregman (32:25) that I think really, I know has had a deep impact then and continues to now.   Michelle (32:30) I love that you mentioned that because I happen to be a huge fan of meditation and mindfulness. It is the key. And you know what I love about what you just said? It was only five minutes a day. It's just give yourself, even if five minutes a day, like put it this way, when you charge your phone, even five minutes is going to juice it up and you're going to get something right. And it's kind of like downloading that software from cosmic.   Kathryn Bregman (32:35) Yeah. Yes, it's like the key, you know, it really is.   Yes! Yes! Yes!   Michelle (32:59) intelligence. And that's how I see it. It's just giving your mind, body, and soul an opportunity to download that intelligence.   Kathryn Bregman (33:09) Absolutely. I agree 100%. I know that it's true in my own experience. And you know, when I was...   Michelle (33:15) Most people are the people that I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I have to say this. The only people that will totally understand what I'm saying are the people who have practiced.   Kathryn Bregman (33:25) Yeah, it's true because once you do it, it is one of those things that like you have to experience it to know. And it's not like some big secret, anyone can do it, you know? And it's really just about sitting down and I do this, you know, again with the women in the BFP because I'm like, this is what's going to help us step away from that inner chatter and all the negative voices that are telling you.   Michelle (33:48) Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (33:50) you waited too long, it's never gonna happen. It can happen for other people, but not for you. Whatever those voices are, this is the tool to learn that they're not you. That there's some other part of you that is more authentic, that's connected to your real truth, which is that you know in your heart, you are meant to be a mom. And that that baby is calling you. And that's why you're even.   Michelle (33:55) Mm -hmm.   Yes.   Kathryn Bregman (34:17) going through all this stuff to begin with because it's meant for you. But all of those voices in your head are gonna take over unless you learn to connect and listen to the softer, more still voice within. And I'll just say too, I think that that five minutes a day is so key because we often make it really complicated and like, well, how, I can't do that, other people can do that, yeah, or.   Michelle (34:21) Right.   All or nothing.   Kathryn Bregman (34:45) Well, my voice was going the whole time, so what was the point? But, you know, I always tell people, like, if your voice is going the whole time that you're breathing mindfully and you became aware of the fact that your voice was going the whole time, you just separated yourself from that voice. Like, that is the point. The point is to see it.   Michelle (35:00) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm. Right, right. It's not to stop the thoughts, but it's to watch it, to become aware.   Kathryn Bregman (35:09) Right. Yeah. Yes, to become aware of it. And I studied my coaching, my coaching background. I trained with Marianne Williamson and she, she's amazing. And that was a life -changing experience. And I really take to heart. She always said five minutes a day, five minutes a day is all you need. You know, so I'm like, okay, I can say it with confidence because that's what I've been taught, you know, and I know from myself, it's true.   Michelle (35:21) It's so awesome. Yeah.   Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Yep. Yeah. yeah. And I actually sometimes I'll even say start with two minutes a day. Because if you repeat that, if you repeat that in the beginning, then you're like, OK, your mind accepts the fact that this is part of your practice. And then naturally, you're going to want to extend it. You're going to be like, OK, this is too little. Let me just do a little more. And then you'll you'll find that you're you know, you're almost like, you know how they say, like, if you don't drink a lot of water, you sort of suppress that thirst.   Kathryn Bregman (35:43) Yeah. Yup.   Yes. Yeah.   Michelle (36:06) And then you don't feel thirsty anymore. And then the more you start drinking water, the more you awaken that thirst. It's the same thing with meditation. And meditation is for everybody. We are wired to do it just like we are all wired to sleep. We are all wired to pee and poop and eat. And, you know, it's like part of, it's just part of what resonates and works with us as humans.   Kathryn Bregman (36:12) Yes. Love.   Yep, absolutely, absolutely.   Michelle (36:32) And so what words of wisdom or tips would you give people who really are finding themselves lost? And we've all been there. We've all been there with different things and different times of our life where we get so sucked into how we're feeling and the emotions can be so hard to remove yourself from. So if somebody's really going through it right now or just like coming back from the doctor and getting bad news and really getting in their heads, what advice would you give them?   Kathryn Bregman (37:01) That's a good question. I would say that...   If you look to examples of women who have defied statistics, beaten the odds that they were given, who've become pregnant despite their struggles, know that they are not any different from you. You have the same capacity within yourself to bring home your baby.   And if you trust the inner wisdom within you, which may sound elusive or confusing, but take it in small steps, one baby step at a time, you will get there. You absolutely, 100 % will get there.   Michelle (37:49) Amazing. Those are powerful words, Catherine. So for people who would like to work with you, like what do you offer and how can they reach you?   Kathryn Bregman (37:59) Yeah, absolutely. The best way to reach out to me is actually to find me on Instagram at Badass Fertility. It's my handle, so. Badass Fertility, thank you. And you can always DM me directly. I'm on there all the time and love to go back and forth. I have a podcast, the Badass Fertility podcast. So if you like listening today, that's a great way to hear me weekly. And then I run group programs for women who.   Michelle (38:08) I love that.   Kathryn Bregman (38:28) who can come together. And a lot of the tools that I'm talking about here, we use in a variety of contexts. And I also work with women one -on -one. So if you are interested in either of those options, you can always reach out to me on Instagram for information or go to my website, badassfertility .com.   Michelle (38:48) Awesome. And I will have all of these links in the episode notes if anybody wants to find Catherine, I love talking to you. I felt like that the first time we talked, you're you are a badass woman, a badass coach, and I'm so happy we connected. Thank you so much for coming on today.   Kathryn Bregman (39:05) Me too. Thank you so much. I love all the work that you do. I just, I love your book, by the way. Amazing, amazing book. It's such a gift to the world. So thank you. It's an honor to be here today.   Michelle (39:12) thank you.  

Dr. Armando Hernandez-Rey is Conceptions Florida's medical director and triple-board certified in Reproductive Endocrinology and Infertility; Obstetrics and Gynecology; and Surgery. Dr. Armando Hernandez-Rey has over 24 years of experience in the medical field. He graduated from Universidad Autonoma de Ciencias Médicas de Centro America in 1998. He attended medical school at the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine for his specialization in Obstetrics and Gynecology. He specializes in treating patients with polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS), recurrent pregnancy loss (miscarriage), and severe endometriosis. He is especially interested in fertility preservation (eggfreezing) for patients who must delay childbearing for personal or medical reasons, including cancer and systemic lupus erythematosus. Dr. Hernandez-Rey is an assistant clinical professor at the Herbert Wertheim College of Medicine at Florida International University and serves as an ad-hoc reviewer for the prestigious peer-reviewed journal, Fertility and Sterility. He has also published several articles and chapters in medical literature.   Website https://www.conceptionsflorida.com Instagram https://www.instagram.com/conceptionsflorida/ Facebook https://www.facebook.com/conceptionsfl Tiktok https://www.tiktok.com/@conceptionsflorida     For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Hernandez -Ray.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (00:04) Thank you, Michelle. Thanks for the invitation. It's really an honor and a privilege to be on your show, on your podcast.   Michelle (00:09) Yes, well, I've heard a lot about you over the years because I've had a lot of patients go to you. And one of the things that I've heard is that you do really well with surgeries and fibroids and you're able to in and   but in a way that still preserves fertility. So that was one of the things that I've learned.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (00:32) Well, reproductive endocrinology and infertility as a subspecialty is a surgical subspecialty as is OB -GYN, which is a mandatory path to get to the infertility route. Unfortunately, a lot of the newer generation is not operating because they're not taught, not through no fault of their own, they're not taught. The reality is that it is...   Michelle (00:47) Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (00:55) for a myriad of reasons this phenomenon has happened. Number one, the minimally invasive surgery tract has been developed where you have the person who's really just really perfected their obstetrical skills. And then you have the gynecologic oncology route and the pelvic urogynecology or pelvic reconstruction route and the minimally invasive surgical route. And a lot of the reproductive endocrinologists,   have said, you know what, I'm going to forego surgery and I'm going to refer it out. My personal philosophy, and this is in no way critical to absolutely anybody, it's just my own, is that I went into medicine to be a surgeon, I actually wanted to be an orthopedic surgeon. I ended up not liking it, I had a very bad fracture when I was in my teens playing competitive soccer, and I really had some PTSD from that fracture, so I just couldn't see myself doing   orthopedic surgery, but I somehow found my way towards OBGYN, absolutely loved it. And eventually towards the reproductive endocrinology route, which encompasses a lot of surgery, should you allow it. And so yes, like you said, fibroids are an important part of fertility. you, tubal reconstruction used to be much more important than it is now. People are more, are bypassing that route and going directly to in vitro fertilization.   Endometriosis, as I said, I was running a little bit late today. I was in a very, very complex endometriosis case with a patient with bilateral endometriomas and complete frozen pelvis and scar tissue. And, you know, just a little bit longer, I had to work with the colorectal surgeons to do some resection of the colon because it was, you know, endometriosis is such an awful, awful disease. So yes, to answer your question, I...   Michelle (02:41) Yeah.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (02:44) Absolutely love surgery. I think it's an integral part of the infertility journey to get a patient from being infertile to getting them to a high level of success with any sort of treatment. And hopefully it's more conservative than having to resort to artificial insemination or in vitro and with just surgery and corrective surgery, we can help the couple achieve a pregnancy.   Michelle (03:07) Yeah, and I think it's important because I think that a lot of people might not realize that there are certain people that specialize in this or have experience doing that, doing surgery and really getting in there because it is important to find somebody who's specialized if you have a complicated case.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (03:23) I think it's important. I think people feel well taken care of. Again, my perception, people feel well taken care of when everything is done in house. Meaning, you know, there's no messages that get lost as you refer a patient out who may have the minimally invasive surgery knowledge, but not necessarily the focus on infertility, reproductive endocrinology.   Michelle (03:33) Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (03:50) specialist has and I think people feel comfortable with that.   Michelle (03:52) Yeah, absolutely. Because there's some people that will take out fibroids, but they're not doing it with fertility in mind. You know, for many women, it could just be just taking out fibroids, but you're doing these things with fertility in mind.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (04:07) There are many great surgeons out there that are not infertility specialists. You know, I want to make sure that I'm clear. I just think that I was, I always love surgery. I happen to do surgery and I feel my patients feel very comfortable with me doing the surgery and not being referred out. It's what I think. You know, the journey, the infertility journey is very complex. It requires a lot of a woman in particular more than the male and to be   Michelle (04:25) Yeah.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (04:36) you know, passed around, it gets complicated. And I think it's nice to be able to offer that service to patients.   Michelle (04:44) Yeah, for sure. And then you do specialize in miscarriages.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (04:49) Sure, I mean, I think we all really have a focus on on as you know, we're all specialized in miscarriages and and PCOS and all that there's some people that tend to see More miscarriage patients or they people will refer miscarriage patients to us We have a particular kind of focus on that, you know, I think a lot of it is   genetic, a lot of it is immunologic, a lot of it is just taking a holistic approach to things and not just focusing on one or the more common causes of infertility. And even now, I think that, you know, the use of supplements, which maybe 15 years ago was maybe considered some snake oil. Now, I think there's a lot of provocative data that has shown that supplements do work, in particular in   Michelle (05:18) Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (05:44) cases with recurrent miscarriage. And now we have the ability to measure those levels and we are now ability to supplement those levels and they have tremendous impact positively on these patients.   Michelle (05:57) And what supplements have you seen help with miscarriages?   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (06:02) Well, I think a lot of it has to do with what the cause of the miscarriages is. Oftentimes, believe it or not, miscarriages can alluded to fibroids, it could be anatomical, sub -mucosal myoma. Well, there's not gonna be any supplement that's gonna help with that. It's just purely the surgical route or the diminished ovarian reserve,   Michelle (06:07) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (06:29) cause for recurrent miscarriages, which is older women or ovaries that are behaving or eggs that are behaving older than what their chronological age would dictate, you have a higher chance for aneuploidy. And in those cases, there's a variable cocktail of supplements that we use, including ubiquinol, including N -acetylcysteine, including vitamin E, even melatonin has been shown to be very, very effective. And I can go on and on, even alpha lipoic acid.   Michelle (06:50) Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (06:57) as well. There's some very nice studies coming out of Mayo Clinic that have shown that aflalipoic acid is very, very good for recurrent miscarriages. So again, things that we thought were, well, they can't hurt, now we know that they absolutely help.   Michelle (06:57) Yeah.   Right. Yeah. I mean, that's great because it just helps to know that there's something that people can do that really does make a difference. And it's not just like in theory with miscarriages when it comes to immunology. I'd love to talk about that because I know that that's a big one. Actually, I did see a study that showed that women who have are more sexually active, that their immune system calms down. It behaves differently in the luteal phase.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (07:31) Mm -hmm.   Michelle (07:44) so that it's able to receive life so that it's not seeing like the sperm as an invader the, yeah.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (07:50) So women that are more sexually active than others, it's probably a function of repeated antigen exposure, which is the more the woman is exposed to the antigens of the sperm, more there becomes an acquiescence by the immune system to be more receptive of that embryo. Because remember, the embryo is   Michelle (08:06) Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (08:19) a haplotype, meaning it's half female, half the woman, half the mother, and half the male. And the only genes that the immune system of the mother has got to harbor the pregnancy are her own. And so oftentimes the immunologic processes are heightened because it does not recognize the male antigens that are formed part of the embryo in general. But as a whole, I mean, recurrent pregnancy loss,   Michelle (08:33) Mm -hmm. Right.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (08:47) is, is a small portion of the general population and, it's skewed towards advanced maternal age and advanced paternal age. so the immunologic component, while absolutely important, I think it's the one where we're still not a hundred percent sure how to absolutely treat it. Although supplementation and.   immune suppression definitely are known to work. It's the testing that I think we still need a lot more work in doing because you know people talk about NK cells and you know that was part of my thesis when I was a fellow. So we talk about NK cells and ANA and antiphospholipids and all of that and the reality is that these tests have very very   poor sensitivity in the realm of immunologic infertility or reproductive immunology. And so you may have COVID and then you can test positive or lightly positive for NK cells. And so I think that the overwhelming response by the treating physician is, well, they're positive, they must be immunologically incapable of handling a pregnancy. So therefore we should treat.   Michelle (09:40) Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (10:04) with nowadays what we use as intralipids. Back in the day, we used to use IVIG that has kind of fallen by the wayside a little bit. I think it's better to treat empirically than to have someone treat or test for all of these different immune markers that really, really in the presence of immunology and reproductive immunology,   They have very low sensitivity. Now if you're treating or you're looking for lupus or rheumatoid arthritis or mixed collagen disorder or Sjogren's for sure, they are your go -tos every single time.   Michelle (10:44) And what about a PRP for ovaries? What has do you do offer that?   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (10:50) ovaries. American study of reproductive medicine came out with a black box warning that they do not recommend PRP for ovaries. Now, PRP for recurrent implantation failure, poor lining development, there is some very robust data that there may be some room or benefit for this.   Michelle (10:57) okay.   Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (11:14) And we do do offer that. We do not offer intra ovarian PRP because ASRM has a huge black box warning on this. It's a liability. The potential for infection is there. Tubo ovarian abscess have been reported, adhesions, periovarian adhesions, and with very little to no benefit whatsoever. I mean, the whole premise for it is that we are...   Michelle (11:16) Okay.   wow, okay, I didn't know that.   Mm -hmm.   Okay, got it.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (11:42) regenerating the follicle complex and therefore improving egg quality and that definitively has not been shown to be the case. Although anybody who suffers from that as I would be would be like, slide me up. But unfortunately, you know, it's very easy for us to fall prey to things that we desperately want without having the medical literature to corroborate it or back it up.   Michelle (11:49) Got it.   Right.   Got it. So that's actually showing to not necessarily be what a lot of people originally thought, but for the uterus, it has been shown to help.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (12:15) Yes, we are doing PRP installations and very select group of women with those diagnoses in particular. And.   Michelle (12:25) So who would be a good candidate? Somebody who's had failed transfers, inflammation.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (12:30) Yes, someone with very high quality embryos, high quality embryos that are not getting pregnant. Also patients, for example, patients who have adenomyosis that do not develop a nice lining, a thickened lining. Those have been shown. Our numbers are very small, you know, by no means.   Michelle (12:42) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (12:53) they are in the realm of what a randomized controlled trial should be. We're following the data from the randomized controlled trials and from the literature that's out there. So patients with adenomyosis who have poor lining development, recurrent implantation failure, so patients with euploid embryos, that means a normal embryo that's tested that looks to be high quality. Also, after a second implantation failure, we'll...   offer that to the patient as a possibility.   Michelle (13:19) Mm hmm. Got it. Awesome. And then also we were talking about Ozempic pre -talk. So I'd love to get your... Yes. Yeah. Ozempic babies.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (13:24) the topic du jour these days, right?   It's right. So as we were discussing, I mean, this, this phenomena is not really a phenomenon that's surprising at all. It is just a, a byproduct, a side effect of, of how the medication works and the effects that positive effects that I have on women with in particular, and ambulatory disorders, specifically polycystic ovarian syndrome, which is often tied to or associated with insulin resistance, obesity, sometimes even overt.   type 2 diabetes and the elevated levels of insulin, the elevated testosterone levels, they all work together to create this sort of environment within the ovary and the system of the female which creates an ovulatory disorder or dysfunction. And as a woman loses weight by virtue of the way that these GLP1s or glucocortes   Michelle (13:58) Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (14:22) Glucagon like peptides work They're very successful. They're very good at number one slowing gastric emptying which in turn slows down the release of sugar into the blood system to the Number one number two it stops the the release of glucose produced by the liver and Number three increases insulin levels so increase insulin levels helps get the the   the sugar into the muscles out of the circulation and out of stimulating the ovaries and the theca cells to produce more androgens which then get produced produce more estrogen which then stops the hypothalamic pituitary ovarian axis from functioning correctly and as these levels drop patients automatically begin to have spontaneous ovulation if the system is working and the male has normal sperm and they're sexually active.   this is how the ozempic baby phenomena occurs. And what we discussed also is that the concern is of the downstream consequences of ozempic babies given that the current recommendations are to have at least a two month washout period before anybody starts to try to conceive.   Michelle (15:32) So two month washout means like really not trying anything. Yeah. And then also, I know like naturally, myonocytol is really helpful as well for insulin resistance. It might take a little longer. And then also metformin has been used as well.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (15:37) No exposure, right? No exposure.   Yeah. Yes. So, my own hospital is, is a, is a great product. my own hospital alone, although you will find oftentimes my, my own hospital with a D chimeric, hospital and really the literature shows that my own hospital by itself is the one that truly has the most benefit might be hard to find.   Michelle (16:06) Right, yeah.   Right because for a little while they said my own hospital and dechiro, but now they're going back to saying just my own ocital, correct?   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (16:23) Yeah, well the way that it's normally found in the body is at a ratio of 20 to 1. And that's what those supplements show, 20 to 1. Although we know now that in the ovary it's almost 40 to 1 ratio of myoinocytol to D -chimeric, inocytol.   Michelle (16:30) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (16:49) Myo Inositol is actually not an essential vitamin, but it's considered like a vitamin, but it's in the category of B8 It's a glucose like peptide that basically helps to Help the system function by processing the circulating blood sugar in a way that's more physiologic and there by lowering insulin levels and thereby also helping tremendously with   Michelle (16:56) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (17:16) regularity of cycles and even spontaneous ovulation as well. And metformin obviously is medication that's been around for many, many years. It is somewhat of a controversial drug. It is an anti -aging drug even these days because we know that insulin levels are so profoundly toxic for aging for the muscle and for the system in general.   Michelle (17:29) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (17:45) And so we know it works, we know that it helps with the efficiency of insulin. And so it's certainly been used for many, many, many years in the presence of patients with polycystic ovarian syndrome. I would challenge people to be a little bit more meticulous about using it in patients who are the lean PCOS.   Michelle (18:11) Right.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (18:11) or the skinny PCOS or the ovulatory PCOS even though insulin levels have been shown to be higher, slightly higher in...   Michelle (18:19) So you're talking about being cautious with metformin, not necessarily myonositol. Yeah, yeah.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (18:22) Metformin, you also don't want very high levels of myelonostetal because they can be, you know, there is some quote unquote toxicity. I think the recommendations are up to four grams per day. I think all the recommendations are four grams per day in two divided doses, two grams in the morning and two grams at night. I've seen patients be on eight grams and 10 grams and toxicity really starts happening around the greater than 10 gram dose.   Michelle (18:29) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (18:52) I in our office we only use it, you know, what's recommended which is the four gram total per day two grams in the morning two grams at night and I don't think it's the end -all be -all I don't think it's you know treating anything in life is multi -pronged. It's not just one single thing perhaps but I definitely believe very wholeheartedly that it does assist in in adjunct treatment, although we certainly have patients put patients on on myocytil and combined with   Michelle (19:06) Yeah. Right.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (19:20) diet and exercise and have been able to achieve pregnancies on their own, which is obviously what we want instead of having to go through treatments.   Michelle (19:27) That's great. I mean, I will say that I was very surprised this past year. two different patients came from different, different places, not yours, it was other doctors, but I think the nutritionist there suggested metformin when they did not have insulin resistance or PCOS for egg quality.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (19:47) Yeah, I'm not familiar with any studies that have shown that have improved that. In fact, when I was a fellow, we were, just as I was coming into fellowship, where I trained, Rutgers was involved with a very well known and publicized study, it's called the PP COAS study, which looked at patients on placebo versus metformin alone versus metformin with Clomid, sorry.   placebo versus clomid versus clomid with metformin and there was no difference in pregnancy rates or anything else. I'll go one step further with them going back to the myonocytol. It has even been shown to decrease the rates of gestational diabetes and so in our patients with PCOS with who are you know   Michelle (20:18) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (20:39) Stage one, type one obesity, type two, we'll continue them on the myonostetal throughout the pregnancy and when they leave us and go to their OB -GYN, in our referral letter back, we'll say that we're recommending for her to continue on myonostetal because there have been improvements in sugar levels and glycemic control and reduction in gestational diabetes overall.   Michelle (20:54) Yeah, that's good to know.   another big one is vitamin D. A lot of people, even though we're in Florida here, we have a lot of sun. A lot of people are very deficient in vitamin D.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (21:11) Yeah, What it is is a combination of things. Number one, we're not as sun exposed as you think we are. You know, we're always in a car, we're always indoors, it's very hot. And yes, we go out to the beach and there is a lot of sun, but we become very, very sensitive to the sun and to the untoward effects of the sun.   Michelle (21:17) Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (21:35) So we protect ourselves tremendously. That's number one. Number two is that I think the levels are set higher than what the average person can sustain with just diet and sun exposure. And actually the recommendations now in the infertility world that when you order a vitamin D from Quest, they'll tell you that the levels are, you want them at   Michelle (21:38) Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (22:04) definitively above 20 Certainly above 30 and now recently now the recommendations are that for them to go above 40 and and and Yeah, I'm not yeah, so I heard I've read 40 I it was a Paper that came out of Either the Lancet or   Michelle (22:11) Yes, yep, I've been hearing that or even 50. Yeah.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (22:27) or fertility necessarily, anyone, one of, that they recommend now for vitamin D levels to be above 40. So that's really hard. I mean, I work really hard. I take a lot of vitamin D and I'm just barely scraping like 50. You know, I take about 5 ,000 units a day, which is what we're recommending nowadays, 5 ,000 units of vitamin D. And I take that every single day and I barely scratch,   Michelle (22:38) Mm -hmm.   Yeah.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (22:56) you know, 45, 50 every time I get an average check. So I'm not getting as much sun as I think I am, number one. I am out fairly often. I do play some golf, not enough. And yet it's not enough. So definitely supplementation's important.   Michelle (23:03) Mm -hmm.   Yeah, magnesium is also important. That's another thing. It's to not be deficient in magnesium because magnesium plays an important role of our absorption of D, which, you know, obviously doing this, I learned, I was like, that's might be deficient magnesium and be taking a lot of D and then their body's not processing, which is why it's important sometimes even in foods, foods have everything. So like,   even beef liver, you know, from Chinese medicine perspective is so beneficial because it has iron, but it has it in a combination of nutrients that helps the body absorb it.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (23:46) Yeah, B6, B12 are incredibly important for iron absorption as well. So all of these things are extremely important. Everything is all intertwined and we're just learning about this. And for us, I've really gotten grabbed hold of this whole longevity thing, hence my aura ring and all of this. And...   Michelle (23:57) It is.   Yeah.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (24:09) I'm just trying to apply a lot of the things that we know today work for longevity medicine and anti -aging principles to the infertility world because it's all intertwined. It's all intertwined.   Michelle (24:16) Yeah.   without a doubt. It's funny because that you say that because I always say it's pretty much anti aging. Yeah.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (24:26) Yeah, totally, totally. They're even coming up with a way to stop menopause.   Michelle (24:36) wow. How?   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (24:37) which is extremely interesting. Believe it or not, recombinant antimullerian hormones.   Michelle (24:42) How is that? Explain that.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (24:46) So the way that antimullerine, the function of antimullerine hormone at the level of the ovary is that it stops follicular recruitment. That's why women with PCOS have higher AMHs and therefore they have higher egg counts and higher, they tend to go into menopause later on, et cetera. That's because they have high levels of antimullerine hormone. So by reproducing or creating it in the laboratory and then from an early stage,   This is in its infancy, by the way, okay? So this is, yeah, this company, I believe she's a Harvard scientist, biochemist or something, who's coming up. My point is that, listen, that it's all intertwined, aging and even in menopause, for God sakes. Now I've been doing this for so long that I now,   Michelle (25:18) It's new.   Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (25:39) seeing menopausal patients who were like, you know, listen, you took care of my baby, you're a reproductive metachronologist, you understand the science, will you treat me? And, you know, like, and I realized, like, somewhere, some women got like, they got a some bad luck thrown their way because, you know, with the WHI results and the way they were interpreted, they made hormones bad. And somewhere along the way, someone said,   It's okay for women to suffer from menopause, just suck it up. Like it's not okay. That's not okay. That's not okay. And so if you start from very early on and, you know, and, and really practice what you preach, which is healthcare and not sick care, which is what we practice in the United States, you know, we're just very, we, we're not proactive. We're reactive to when a patient is sick instead of early intervention, early screening and all of that.   Michelle (26:25) Yeah, absolutely.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (26:30) And that goes for the infertility world and that goes for a woman's long reproductive life extending past menopause. I think we still have a lot of challenges to overcome, but I think that we're heading in the right direction. Sorry to digress a little bit. I went off on a tangent there for a second.   Michelle (26:43) Yeah, for sure. no, it's okay. But you know what? I love the passion and I love that, that, you know, ultimately is great. It's important, very important, because it's true. And I agree a lot with what you just said, that we should be proactive when it comes to healthcare. I mean, really when it comes to so many things and something else that I...   that I read, it was an animal study. It was a study on, I believe it was like, I don't remember which kind of animal it was. I think it was like either sheep or cows or some form of those where they actually gave them oxytocin right before IUI. And that improved the chances of the conception rates, which I thought was very interesting because I think that that's one of the things with IUI that's missing because obviously you're taking away the connection.   that is usually there when you're just under natural circumstance. And I thought it was interesting because I was looking into it for something else to understand from a Chinese medicine perspective, because they have this heart -uterusconnection, that connection, the bonding. And so what I found was interesting too is that oxytocin increases around ovulation and after intercourse. And usually what they look at it as its role is usually for labor.   not so much conception. So I was just going to kind of like pick your brain on that. Any thoughts on that?   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (28:13) Well, I mean, oxytocin is secreted at the time of... I'm not sure of ovulation, I didn't know that. But definitely at the time of...   Michelle (28:21) or it increases around that time, like right before ovulation in the cycle, a woman cycle.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (28:27) What we know that it's involved is at the time of orgasm. And so this may promote uterine contractility, which is what is used for intrapartum, to promote contractility of the uterus, to promote descent and eventual delivery. And we know that it's intimately involved in orgasm, we're seeing.   Michelle (28:33) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (28:55) during intercourse and orgasm and so with you know the projection of with the secretion of oxytocin and it causing uterine contractility obviously not at the same level that it does during labor but at smaller amounts then I can see how there could be a role for oxytocin in artificial insemination.   Michelle (29:18) even in fertility in general and because it's got to be there for a reason why would the body produce it around that time?   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (29:25) Well, yeah, I guess, but it's either IUI or IVF and we definitely don't want oxytocin during the IVF cycle.   Michelle (29:33) Right, because you don't want to contract, right?   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (29:35) Right, because we're transferring an embryo where there should not be any oxytocin. And you can have the most beautiful embryo, but if you screw up the embryo transfer, through no fault, just because it's a difficult transfer for a myriad of reasons, and you cause uterine contractility, then there's a high likelihood of pregnancy not occurring during that time.   Michelle (29:57) Right. I think it would be an interesting thing to look into for IUI. There might be something to it, because if it works with animals, and the animals obviously have similar certain functions that we do, mammals, that seems like an interesting thing.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (30:10) Yeah.   I think there's not going to be a lot of resources put into improving IUI, to be honest with you. IUI, I think it is what it is. And I mean, I think the majority of research is going to go to improving even more IVF rates, because I think ultimately patients are going to want to go more.   Michelle (30:22) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (30:40) towards IBF, no matter how hard we try to say, hey, listen, there's this option or this option or this option. It's more become a more of an instant gratification society. Number one, number two, people are waiting longer. So therefore they're more pressed for time, if you will. And I think there will be less of a motivation to go down a treatment option that frankly,   Michelle (30:48) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (31:07) You know, has a low pregnancy rate.   Michelle (31:09) Right. And then my other question is, what are your, thoughts about a lower intensity cycle?   like lower amounts of hormones for older women. In some cases I've heard it might be a little better. you do? Yeah, yeah.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (31:24) We use it all the time. Yeah, we use it all the time. I think it's...   a very successful option in cases with severely diminished ovarian reserve. I think that the senescent ovary does not do well with high impact medication or high doses of medication separately, but you know, jointly the medication costs are exorbitant and you end up having the same number of eggs that are mature, that get fertilized with a mini stent protocol as you do with   Michelle (31:38) Okay.   Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (31:59) a high dose regimen.   Michelle (32:02) Okay, so you've seen good success with that.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (32:06) Well, I mean, not good success because generally these cases are, we've seen success. Let's call it that. Because the patients that you're treating with these medics, with this protocol are patients who are POI, you know, premature ovarian insufficiency, diminished ovarian reserve, poor egg quality, high rate maniploidy. So these are your poor responders essentially. And they're very...   Michelle (32:12) Yeah, okay.   Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (32:34) specific factors that propel a woman to have success with this protocol compared to her twin sister with almost the same testing who doesn't do as well.   Michelle (32:47) Got it. And then lastly, we talked about this in the pre -talk, let's talk about marijuana and sperm, data is showing. Yeah.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (32:55) I don't do it myself, but I have no problem with people that do. What the data has shown that we're just becoming more and more familiar because the overwhelming number of people who are using cannabis and open about it, which is the second part, which was very difficult to conduct studies because it was so people were ostracized. They were looked at.   not the wrong way and seen as in the fringe. And now it's, you know, it's so mainstream. but so now we're, we're keenly aware, of patients were able to analyze them and what we know without a shadow of a doubt that the potency of the cannabis that's being produced these days is anywhere between eight to 12 times more potent than I think I use the joke of the guys at Woodstock back in the sixties, right?   Michelle (33:21) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (33:46) where everybody was getting pregnant and everybody was high on life, all of those things. And then what we've also known, which I did mention, is that using the vape pens, whatever types of inhalers as opposed to the traditional joint, if you will, increase the potency of that by a factor of two to three. The cannabis that was already potent to begin with.   Michelle (34:08) Yeah.   Right.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (34:14) So what you're seeing in males in particular, and I'm not sure that the literature is so complete on the female aspects, are that we're seeing a high levels of fragmentation. And what fragmentation is, is imagine that sperm is like an Amazon box. And inside that box, there's a porcelain doll that's wrapped in these packing cubes. They're held very, very tight. And under...   Michelle (34:26) Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (34:40) The best of circumstances, those packing cubes are wound so tight, packed so tight that nothing, if I kick the box off the Amazon truck, nothing is gonna happen to the porcelain doll. Well, as fragmentation occurs and it happens under natural conditions and old guys like me, you know, patients who, occupational hazards, firefighters, exposed to toxins, a lot of people who use fertilizers, et cetera, et cetera.   you see high levels of fragmentation. I'm talking about DNA fragmentation. And so what we're seeing is high levels of fragmentation at the level of the DNA of the sperm, which has significant effects on embryo quality, embryo development, and pregnancy rates, and high levels of aneuploidy, which is abnormal embryos. So,   Michelle (35:10) So you're talking about DNA fragmentation. Yeah. Yeah.   Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (35:33) You know, I'm not here to like, you know, slap you on the wrist and say don't smoke weed, but really that's what you're facing. And we know that this happens in women with cigarette smoking. Like this is a well -known cause of an accelerated transition to perimenopause. You know, 65 % of women who smoked a pack a day for greater than 15 years will go into menopause before the age of 40, assuming they started before their 20s. That's a pretty...   Michelle (35:40) Bye.   Mm -hmm.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (36:03) ominous number, actually. Thankfully, not many women smoke these days, cigarettes anyway. So I guess the results of cannabis on females is yet to be elucidated, but we definitely have some pretty compelling evidence in terms of the male data that show that it can have detrimental or deleterious effects on sperm quality and not necessarily on numbers.   Michelle (36:04) Yeah.   Mm -hmm.   right, which is what people look at usually when I mean, that's like the, the analysis is always on numbers shape and, numbers shape it. Yeah. And morphology and they won't necessarily look at the DNA fragmentation. That's actually not something that REIs usually initially look at.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (36:33) Exactly.   the thesis in morphology.   is done in a well not initially unless there's comorbid situations or things that raise your red flags. For example, advanced paternal age, we always do it. Particularly in egg donor cycles, right? Because patients will be like, well, I'm using an egg donor and why don't I have bad energy? Well, because your husband could be 70 or 60 and   Michelle (37:11) Yeah.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (37:14) And then their fragmentation is completely elevated and through the roof. So yeah. So, you know, firefighters, occupational hazards.   Michelle (37:18) Right. So, yeah, it's important. It's important for people to hear this because they can go in and say, the semen analysis was perfect. But that, like what you just said, is not really checked. So they may not, in a healthy, like, younger guy.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (37:35) It's not as nuanced as we once thought it was.   Michelle (37:38) Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. It's, it's fun. It's always fun for me to talk to our, our ease, you know, just to get, to pick your brain and get your thoughts. and you're my neighbors. So it's pretty cool.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (37:50) That's right. Thank you very much for the invitation. This was really fun. We spoke about a wide array of different topics here. So this was really nice to connect this way.   Michelle (37:53) Yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah, for sure. And I know that a lot of people are going to be like, this is interesting information. Cause I know that what you just mentioned, a lot of it is not common knowledge. people don't know automatically hear about this or really know to think about asking about it. So, so I appreciate all your information, all your good, good data. And, for people who would like to work with you or in town, how can they find more about you?   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (38:27) Well, we are at Conceptions Florida. We have two offices in Merritt Park, Coral Gables and one in Miramar and hopefully soon also in Boca. And I'm there Armando Hernandez -Ray, MD I'm sure. Easy to find these days on Google, but I'm happy to help in any way that we can. We've been doing this for a long time, quite successfully, thankfully. And we take a lot of pride, humbly speaking, but probably also.   in having a good footprint in South Florida and the infertility world and trying to offer the best care possible.   Michelle (39:01) Awesome. Well, this was such a pleasure and thank you so much for coming on today.   Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (39:05) Thank you, Michelle.    

After being told at a young age that she might struggle getting pregnant, without receiving adequate support or guidance, Dr. Kelsey embarked on a mission to offer better healthcare to women. She firmly believes women deserve the information to make quality decisions, the support they need to be successful, and the confidence in knowing they are doing everything within their power to make a baby.   Through her 3 pillar Fertility Success System, Dr. Kelsey and her team have helped bring hundreds of babies into the world using evidence-driven medicine and supporting couples regardless of where they are in their fertility journey. When she's not helping couples reach their fertility goals, you can find Dr. Kelsey spending time with her 2 kids, watching trashy reality tv when they go to bed, and enjoying time up north by the water.    Free Webinar: Five Strategies to Build Fertility Confidence: https://kelseyduncan.com/ondemand/   Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fertilityconfidencemethod/   Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@dr.kelseyduncannaturopathi9750   Fertility Confidence Podcast Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2xctPYL5cxoI1zFwSZJUmf?utm_medium=share&utm_source=linktree Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/fertility-confidence-podcast/id1553380342?itsct=podcast_box_link&itscg=30200 Website: https://caredforwellnessclinic.com/podcast/      For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:01.572) So welcome to the podcast, Kelsey.   Dr. Kelsey (00:04.43) Thank you so much for having me. It's nice to see you again.   Michelle (00:07.236) Nice to see you as well. So I was on your podcast. Now you're on my podcast.   Dr. Kelsey (00:11.566) Yeah, getting very familiar, which is always good.   Michelle (00:16.26) Yeah, for sure. So I'd love to have you share your story, your background story, which I always love hearing how you got into the work that you're doing today.   Dr. Kelsey (00:23.346) That's it.   Yeah, amazing. Well, it started with an acne journey, which I feel is very common as a young woman, but I had really horrible cystic acne. And I went through all the traditional medical route of what can you do to help me? It was a 14, 15, 16 year old girl. I was really looking at anything to make my skin clear. So,   I was really just routinely offered various forms of birth control and some different antibacterial creams. And anytime I went on birth control or any of the birth controls they switched me on to, I never felt great. I was incredibly nauseous for a good portion of the month. It was really impacting my quality of life. But like I said, my skin felt like my number one priority. So I just sort of like suffered through that for many, many years.   Michelle (01:07.812) Mm.   Dr. Kelsey (01:22.158) And then I actually saw a naturopath in my journey once I was probably 19 or 20. And I just had one appointment with her. And it was like finally being heard after so many years of feeling like no one was taking me seriously of, you know, she's just another.   that doesn't like her skin, like nothing crazy. And it wasn't, you know, this huge, profound like skin clearing experience either, but it was something that made me really start to question my journey and route in terms of how, what I wanted to do with my life. I knew, I always knew I wanted to be in medicine and help people. I just wasn't fully sure at that point what that really looked like. And so it was my first introduction to naturopathic medicine.   And it felt really lovely. And I just kind of kept going through I thought I was going to be a pharmacist kept going through the motions of like going through that journey. And when that didn't work out, I had this like light bulb moment of like, well, I really liked that. Like, why don't I see you know what that's all about. And the stars sort of aligned that I had all the prerequisites to apply the applications were open, it all kind of worked out really well. And I landed myself.   Michelle (02:18.788) well.   Dr. Kelsey (02:41.038) in naturopathic college very shortly after I graduated. And fast forward a few years, I then had another experience in the medical community that pertained to my fertility. And it was my like last ditch effort in my hormonal birth control phase of again, trying to figure out my skin. And I was told that we would likely struggle, I'd likely struggle to get pregnant whenever the time came. Here's another.   you know, birth control prescription, like, see you later. And that was sort of the breaking point for me of like, okay, at that moment, it wasn't like, hugely about the fertility piece, though that was, you know, a big factor for me of like, my gosh, you know, I have to have this conversation with my boyfriend, who's now my husband, but   you know, what is that gonna look like and where the heck do I go from here? And it really propelled me into the field of women's health medicine in general. But I also felt very fortunate that I got this warning when I was young that my fertility is something I need to pay attention to. And a lot of women don't get that, right? We often don't.   Michelle (03:53.86) Mm -hmm.   Dr. Kelsey (03:54.446) get to even start having these conversations until sometimes you're six months into trying and then you're like, what the heck, it's not easy, what's going on? And now we're learning, whereas I, you know, my journey wasn't awesome, but I was blessed with this opportunity to really dig into that piece many years before we were even ready. And I attribute that to our very fortunate success down the road.   Michelle (04:00.452) Right. Yeah.   Dr. Kelsey (04:20.558) of being able to set my body up for success and have those conversations. And I was obviously already embedded in a community that took a very natural whole body focused approach. And when I came out of school, I knew that that's where I was meant to kind of put my expertise was in helping couples, A, hopefully, you know, create content and get the word out there that like we should be having these conversations.   earlier than when we're even ready, but be okay, if you're not getting the support on your fertility experience in mainstream medicine, like guess what, there's other options. And that's how Fertility Confidence Method came to be.   Michelle (04:50.212) Yeah.   Michelle (05:05.604) That's awesome. We have very similar stories. We talked about that before. And if I might ask, what were they basing the fertility, well, what they were perceiving as fertility issues on?   Dr. Kelsey (05:09.678) I see you. I see you.   Dr. Kelsey (05:19.534) Yeah. Yeah, I was trying to, it was a botched IUD insertion, which if anyone listening has ever, you know, had an IUD put in or unfortunately had a similar experience to me, it was not awesome. So there was a lot of like medical trauma that came out of that appointment just as a whole. But she kept telling me that like my uterus was a funny shape. It wasn't.   Michelle (05:26.436) Mm -hmm.   Michelle (05:40.772) wow. Yeah.   Dr. Kelsey (05:48.814) the way that it should be, that there was something wrong with it. And it was quite literally just based off that, you know, assessment alone. There was never an ultrasound done. And I was 21. Like, I didn't know any better at the time to like ask more questions or get more knowledge at that moment. I did seek that out down the line and was told like, you know, yes, there are factors here, but like,   let's just try and see what happens. And I had put my body in a very, you know, privileged stance at that point of like, I had years to work on egg quality and balance my hormones, you know, coming off of birth control, I actually had quite a few hormonal issues with that, that the birth control was just masking for me this whole time, right? So I had years to fix that.   Michelle (06:36.516) Yeah.   Dr. Kelsey (06:43.15) But the physical piece that they made like a big stink about truly at the end of the day, I don't think was as big of a factor as they made it seem, which is another big piece of the story of like getting factual information into the hands of women so that we're not, you know, walking around thinking we're barren because I spent a good portion of my 20s assuming that because that's how it was explained to me. It wasn't really.   Michelle (07:10.148) Yeah.   Dr. Kelsey (07:11.246) discussed in an appropriate manner, right?   Michelle (07:14.98) Totally. And I've heard people say, you know, they've been told, you have PCOS, you're likely to have issues getting pregnant. You're going to have a hard time. Like really, it's just, just give that information to somebody, get that in their mind and then let them leave the office. Yeah. Yeah. There is a thought.   Dr. Kelsey (07:23.598) Yeah.   Dr. Kelsey (07:30.798) Yeah, let's actually help them. What does that that conversation can happen in a far more appropriate manner that supportive versus like you're going to struggle. It's like, well, okay, we know this is here. We know that this has the potential to decrease fertility rates. So let's, you know, dig deeper, find the root cause work on that. So that's not your story. Instead of just   Michelle (07:44.132) Mm -hmm.   Michelle (07:58.084) Yeah.   Dr. Kelsey (07:58.702) putting women on birth control and saying like, when you wanna have kids, we'll just see what happens is kind of the route with PCOS. It's the route with endometriosis as well often, any sort of like period concern. That's sort of how we tackle it, unfortunately.   Michelle (08:03.812) Totally.   Michelle (08:08.676) Mm -hmm.   Michelle (08:16.1) Yeah, it is unfortunate, but it is out there, which is why I like getting this message out for people. I've had naturopathic doctors on before, but somebody might be just kind of stumbling upon this podcast. I would love for you to just give an overview on how that's different than mainstream medicine and how you guys approach really the body and like health.   Dr. Kelsey (08:26.35) Mm -hmm.   Dr. Kelsey (08:38.446) Yeah. Yeah. I love to explain it in a way of like, in terms of like a general practitioner, we're not vastly different, but we have different tools in our toolkit. So we still learn a very similar education as your like standard GP, obviously, when we're getting into like more specialty realms, that's a different journey. But we are more focused on looking at the body as a whole and getting down to the root cause versus treating the symptom, which tends to be how mainstream medicine approaches the majority of complaints, right? I often call it it's reactive healthcare when we're going that route. It's like, I have a problem, this might fix that problem. And if that works, cool.   we're not gonna dig any deeper. And if that doesn't, we might then assess different. Whereas with naturopathic medicine, we really don't wanna be just putting band -aids on things. We wanna be getting down to the root cause and understanding like, why is this happening? And what is our body trying to tell us? And the reality is, is that a lot of times with hormones, for example,   we, you know, there's supplements and things we can all read about and blogs and see on TikTok. But at the end of the day, if it's your gut, that's the problem. Like none of those things are going to help you. So we want to just pick away at the pieces and see in the layers of the body versus just looking superficially at the front. And then we use our different tools. So for me, for example, and not all NDs are going to   hold the same value, but it's all about gold standard of care for me. So I'm not anti -pharmaceutical. I'm not anti -mainstream medicine. A lot of my clients work with fertility clinics still. I think there really needs to be a synergistic approach between Western medicine and alternative care. I think that's the way of the future to lessen the burden on mainstream medicine truly, but we're going to come in and look at, okay,   Dr. Kelsey (10:53.006) How are you eating? How are you sleeping? What's your stress like? Are you moving your body? Like there's so many fundamental pieces of health that don't really get talked about in mainstream medicine. And for two reasons, one, they're not trained in that realm. You know, their nutrition training is like a day or something like that. Like it's not a lot.   Michelle (11:06.084) Mm -hmm.   Dr. Kelsey (11:19.47) They don't learn about supplements unless they're pharmaceutical branded and they don't have the time, right? Like here in Ontario, we have quote unquote free healthcare, but your appointments are like seven to 10 minutes and then they got to see the next person and the next person. I know it's like that in many places. So we're now not getting the time to have these fundamental conversations. It really is just how quick can I fix the problem?   So as an ND, I have the flexibility of having longer appointments if I'm in private practice and spending the time and doing the digging. And I have the extra training to put the pieces of the puzzle together from a whole body systems approach.   Michelle (12:06.404) And how do you uncover it? Do you do different testing? Like what's the difference between the testing that you would run versus the testing that people would get more mainstream?   Dr. Kelsey (12:13.71) Yeah.   Dr. Kelsey (12:17.454) Yeah, we run a lot of blood work with our clients, which is similar to what, you know, your fertility clinic would run. But I do find that in the fertility realm specifically, lab assessment is still very surface level. Like your first kind of look at, I'm walking into the clinic, my first appointment, they're going to do some testing. It's still not deep enough for the majority of couples. So we're then getting that unexplained tag instead of actually going down that next rabbit hole. So we dig a little bit deeper just with a variety of labs looking at nutrient deficiencies and blood sugar management and things like that, that the clinics don't often look at first and foremost, unless there's like a big glaring red flag in your health history, then they might. And then we do sometimes use some various functional testing, it depends who I'm working with. So,   And for me with testing, I really wanna make sure that we're using resources, we're spending money and we're ordering tests that are going to change the treatment protocol. So I'm always very strategic there with like what makes sense per couple in terms of what we wanna look at. And then if any of you listen to the Fertility Confidence Podcast or follow me, you'll know I'm very passionate about male fertility. And so regardless of where you're at in your journey,   It's not all about you and your partner needs a semen analysis. Even if you're one month in, doesn't matter. We need to be uncovering that as well. So if that's not something that's been done early on, and usually if a couple isn't in the fertility clinic realm yet, I find that their doctor might run them some labs, but their partners are kind of just left off to the side for a while. And in our world, that's not okay. It's a whole couple approach. We want to see both factors.   Michelle (13:45.572) I'm going to go ahead and close the video.   Michelle (14:07.876) Mm -hmm.   Michelle (14:12.036) Do you typically see both at the same time every time you speak to people?   Dr. Kelsey (14:17.358) Yeah, we want to, yeah, we use a very whole couple approach. So I want to make sure that we're not missing something. And I've missed things before by not having their partner in on the assessment or doing that testing or having those conversations and then having them down the line and being like, damn, we just like wasted so much time by not doing this earlier. So   Michelle (14:26.884) Mm -hmm.   Dr. Kelsey (14:43.342) Right from the get -go, like I said, no matter how long you've been trying, no matter if you've had kids previously or not, we wanna see those numbers. And at the very least, we wanna get partners involved in prenatal care, even while we wait for a semen analysis, because sperm's 50 % of the equation. And all the things we talk about from female perspective and egg quality and blood sugar and balancing hormones, we could literally...   Michelle (14:56.964) Mm -hmm.   Michelle (15:02.052) Yeah.   Dr. Kelsey (15:12.462) flip that script to men and it's equally equally as important. So that's another big piece that's missing in the conversation right now.   Michelle (15:21.06) Yeah, it's true. And what do you find is a core reason for men having sperm quality issues or even motility and count? Like what are some of the factors that you've seen impacting that?   Dr. Kelsey (15:40.27) Yeah, I think they need to do more research in the overall why, but we've seen in the data that in the last 40, 50 years, sperm numbers have decreased a significant amount, and they're decreasing at a rate of something like 2 .5 % a year right now. So there's a huge issue happening. And the reality is, is I don't think we'll ever fully know why, but I think we can make some assumptions.   Michelle (15:58.66) That's crazy.   Dr. Kelsey (16:09.582) One of those assumptions being our environment is very different than it was 50 years ago. We're exposed to more chemicals, toxins, pesticides, radiation, and they need to do more data into that. There's a recent study that's kind of circulating right now about glyphosate being found in semen specifically. And so now we're starting to see direct correlations, but there's already lots of research in men who have   high levels of parabens or phthalates in their urine having lower sperm quality and count numbers. So we know that environmental toxins are likely a culprit of the global decrease. And I do think that stress is probably a contributing factor. Life is different now. We live in a very go, go, go society. If you're not hustling, you're not winning. And I think we don't take...   Michelle (16:46.244) Mm -hmm.   Dr. Kelsey (17:08.686) enough, you know, as we could have this whole conversation for women as well. But, you know, cortisol is in men and cortisol impacts many things. And there's a really fascinating study that looked at men who lived in like war zones and men who like college men, for example, who had to write exams.   Michelle (17:15.012) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Dr. Kelsey (17:31.758) And they did see a decrease in those time periods in their sperm numbers. So we know that stress plays a factor. So that's my assumption right now. Like I said, I don't know if we'll ever fully, it's so multifaceted that I'm not sure we'll ever have like a clear answer, but I think environment is playing a role. And I do think that stress is likely playing a role and we can couple in, you know, with our environment, food quality.   Michelle (17:31.812) Mm.   Michelle (17:40.676) Mm -hmm.   Michelle (17:47.524) Yeah, for sure.   Dr. Kelsey (18:01.71) Overall has gone down, processed food and the access to processed food and our consumption of sugar has gone up over the years. All of these things, they're all playing a really big factor in not just how a male's body makes sperm, but testosterone levels, which are also important for sperm production.   Michelle (18:09.828) huh.   Michelle (18:23.364) Yeah, a couple of things came to mind. I actually remember reading something about sperm production and count relating very much to nervous system imbalances, which really kind of speaks to the stress aspect of it. But also, I mean, you see, I see guys carrying their phones in their front pocket.   Dr. Kelsey (18:34.254) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Yeah, totally.   Dr. Kelsey (18:44.142) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Michelle (18:44.9) It's got to play a role. I mean, we're, you know, we know that that's what's happening recently is that like technology is increasing and there's so many more waves that we're exposed to that we have not been exposed to before.   Dr. Kelsey (18:57.838) Yeah, we need more research for sure. I'm always scouring for EMF data because I get asked all the time, right? And I'm like, we don't, we know a little, but we don't know a lot. Like, we don't know enough to be like, everyone put it all away. Like, this is the culprit, right? But but that is one really easy recommendation, like just in case that we can give and we know that phones are giving off, you know,   Michelle (19:05.284) Yeah.   Michelle (19:12.292) Mm -hmm.   Dr. Kelsey (19:24.334) lots of things and we also know that they get warm, right? And testicular heat is a big factor. And so I'm in Southern Ontario and yeah, yeah, no kidding. Yeah, just put it in your back pocket. That's what I tell my clients. I say, if you're moving around, put in your back pocket. When you get there, when you get to wherever you're going, if you can take it out of your pocket and put on the table, just do that.   Michelle (19:29.892) Yeah.   Michelle (19:33.956) I would say be careful anyway, even if you don't have the data. I mean, don't wait for the data to be careful. Yeah, I see the same thing.   Dr. Kelsey (19:52.558) Like just get in the habit of not always having to have it in your pocket. And that was something I really had to train my husband with too, because he would just leave his phone in his front pocket all the time. And I was like, we just, just, it's super simple. You just have to change your habit. And it feels weird at first, sure. But overall, like, and not just in the fertility journey, but it is likely causing testicular damage. And so when we're thinking whole health long -term,   Michelle (19:53.092) Yeah.   Michelle (20:04.132) Yeah.   Michelle (20:09.54) Yes.   Dr. Kelsey (20:22.094) We don't want that either, right? Because now we're gonna have testosterone issues and now we've got all the fun side effects of that as well.   Michelle (20:24.932) Nope.   Michelle (20:30.564) I just remember a couple of years, and this is before it was as strong as it is now. I remember seeing this maybe even like 2008, 2009. There was a girl and her mom that went on the Dr. Oz show. And the girl at the time, I don't know if you remember, sometimes girls would put their cell phones in their bra. She would always put it on her right.   Dr. Kelsey (20:45.55) Mm -hmm.   Dr. Kelsey (20:52.942) Yep.   Michelle (20:55.012) side of her brow or like one side over the other. And she ended up getting an aggressive tumor, cancer at 18 years old. And she said, there's no way that this naturally happens for an 18 year old in the same exact spot that she kept her cell phone. So I want to get this message out. And this is years ago, like years and years ago. And that never left my mind. And I was like, you know, that   Dr. Kelsey (21:02.408) Yeah.   Dr. Kelsey (21:11.886) Yeah.   Dr. Kelsey (21:17.198) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Yep.   Michelle (21:24.068) is not, it cannot be random. It cannot be just left to chance. And this is way back when, when the technology and the radiation was less than it is today. So I'm thinking people need to pay attention to that.   Dr. Kelsey (21:33.038) Yeah.   Dr. Kelsey (21:38.446) Yeah, yeah, there's this whole like when we look at the sperm decrease data, it's starting looking at like 1940, like we didn't have cell phones back then, right? Like that is a big change in our society that has to be playing a role with both men and women in some way. And whether or not we'll see like the good confirmation, like you said, it doesn't matter. Like it's an easy change that we can.   Michelle (21:48.644) Yeah. Yeah.   Michelle (21:57.796) Yeah.   Dr. Kelsey (22:06.382) you know, feel comfortable with the assumption that it's likely not nothing. Even if it's just a small piece, every little bit helps. And so it's not a pill. It's not something you have to buy. You literally just have to move it off of your body.   Michelle (22:10.788) Yeah.   Michelle (22:16.644) No.   Right, right. We're such creatures of habit though, so I get it. Like it is hard. It's hard to break a habit. If you're used to something and actually there's science behind it because like you have a certain pattern, certain triggers and certain behavior that it feels very like unnatural to change. So, you know, it's a known thing, but it's not forever. You're going to eventually shift it. Same thing with diet, you know,   Dr. Kelsey (22:23.694) Yeah. Yeah.   Dr. Kelsey (22:40.174) Mm.   Michelle (22:48.932) Diet is very behavioral and that's one thing that I noticed too. It's not something that is just physical. It's not just something that like impacts your nutrition. I mean, yes, it does, but like the behavioral aspect is a big component to it. What have you seen as like pretty common, I guess, lifestyle choices that happen that you feel need to get attention?   when it comes to fertility health from both men and women or both.   Dr. Kelsey (23:23.214) Yeah, I think like we can talk a lot about the nutrition angle for sure, but a really big one that doesn't get as much attention that actually has fascinating research behind it is sleep. And, and again, kind of in our like higher stress society and our go, go, go lifestyle, we've sacrificed sleep to like fit it all in, right? And,   Michelle (23:37.22) Hmm.   Michelle (23:46.948) Mm -hmm.   Dr. Kelsey (23:48.238) From a male side of things, we have research showing men who sleep less than seven and a half hours a night have lower sperm numbers and poor quality. And we also see by increasing sleep, those numbers actually improve. So it's not just the detriment, but by actually improving the habit, we see improvement, which is what we want at the end of the day. And we see similar patterns with women.   Michelle (23:58.436) Mm -hmm.   Michelle (24:03.588) wow.   Dr. Kelsey (24:14.766) as well in terms of hormone disruption and cortisol and cortisol is an umbrella hormone, right? So it's going to impact everything. So I think that that's a big piece for a lot of couples where they're like, I feel like I'm doing everything. But if we're still, you know, lying in bed, scrolling on our phones or watching shows till midnight or later, and then getting up to start our day at like six, six, 37, you're and you, you know, you've always done that. So it just, it's a habit. It just,   feels normal in your body to live off five, six hours of sleep, but you're likely not getting enough deep or REM sleep in that timeframe. And that long -term is going to contribute to hormonal dysregulation, but it also can be impacting your fertility journey from a root cause perspective if it's impacting cortisol in that way. So sleep is always like a sneaky one, I feel, where people kind of, when they come in and work with us and we start talking about it, they're like,   Michelle (24:52.74) Mm -hmm.   Dr. Kelsey (25:13.838) I never thought of that. And it often, women definitely have sleep issues and things to work on, but it almost always is like, yeah, I sleep well, but my husband stays up till like one, two in the morning and he's a night owl, right? Like that's just his normal and that's his habit. And it's not a quick switch to go to bed earlier because your body's not used to it.   Michelle (25:15.108) Yeah.   Michelle (25:36.452) Right, yeah.   Dr. Kelsey (25:39.694) I notice that all the time. I don't know if you notice this, Michelle, but like if I have a couple late nights and then I'm like, okay, I gotta go to bed like at a normal time. I'll just, my body's like, well, you're not ready for sleep. Like I thought we were staying up late now, right? It becomes a bit of a struggle. This was me last night. I'm like, we were away for the weekend. I was like, okay, I really need to get some sleep. And my body's like, do, do, do. So it takes time. So if you're working on sleep, we don't want you going from.   Michelle (25:52.196) Yeah. Yes. Yep. It's true. Yeah.   Michelle (26:02.34) Yeah.   Dr. Kelsey (26:08.046) Midnight to be like, okay now you go to bed at 930 because you're probably gonna lie there very Frustrated and then the frustration is just gonna keep you awake so I usually tell people like go back in 15 minute increments every few days or even every week and just work yourself back into that more like appropriate Crocadian rhythm time frame because we all can go to bed at 9 930   Michelle (26:11.748) Right. Yeah.   Dr. Kelsey (26:36.59) What's happening for our night owls is they're pushing past their natural sleep signals and getting a surge of cortisol around 10, 10 .30. And once you get that and your body's like, we're not sleeping. Okay. Like, let me help you know. Right. And then you're like, well, why to wake? So now you're just paying up later. And so we need to find everyone's sweet spot is a little bit different, but in general, like most humans,   Michelle (26:51.908) Yeah, and then you wake up.   Michelle (26:56.42) Right.   Dr. Kelsey (27:05.134) do better being asleep before 1030. And for some people, that's really early. So it takes time to sort of shift that back. But we do see in the data that longer and better quality sleep improves fertility parameters, which is really like simple thing to change.   Michelle (27:26.756) my God, I feel like that by itself is a game changer because it's going to also impact what you eat the next day. If you're tired, you tend to go for sugar and it impacts how like, you know, your cravings. So it's such a cascade of events when you're not getting the rest that you need. And then it also goes back to the nervous system because your body's able to regulate or rejuvenate and really heal itself too.   Dr. Kelsey (27:31.758) Mm -hmm.   Dr. Kelsey (27:35.662) Yeah, yeah. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Dr. Kelsey (27:50.702) Yep. Totally.   Michelle (27:56.644) when you're going through that and clean out hormones. And I mean, there's so many things that sleep does and I love sleep. I really do. But I've always been a night owl. And you know what, my hormones and my menstrual cycle was very regular when I was younger and I had a very irregular circadian rhythm. So it really was thrown off and looking back on like it makes a lot of sense. But I think the devices too, like having it at night.   Dr. Kelsey (28:02.83) Yeah.   Dr. Kelsey (28:19.278) Hmm.   Michelle (28:22.82) those things are giving your brain a signal that it's daytime when it's really not. And that's why one of the, you know, sleep hygiene, like lowering the light so that you're not getting bright light and it's not confusing your brain. But also like what you said, I loved what you said about 15 minutes, because I think that the big part about it is really wrapping your mind around the, the,   Dr. Kelsey (28:38.862) Yeah.   Michelle (28:49.38) idea, you know, we sort of like judge the idea of like, my God, before 10 o 'clock, no way or 1030. Like that's crazy. So it's kind of like the judgment that we have on that seems like that's not me. And so I think being aware of that, that block that you could have very easily and then just easing into it, but not ruling it out because it could really impact. I mean, cause we'll do anything else. Like why not?   Dr. Kelsey (28:55.982) Yeah. Yeah.   Dr. Kelsey (29:06.222) Yeah. Yeah.   Dr. Kelsey (29:16.846) Yeah. Yeah. It's free. I'm trying to tell people it's free. Like we don't have to do anything crazy. We just, it's going to take time and we have to be okay with that. And we have, we're okay with flexibility because you don't have to be perfect to get pregnant. You're, you're going to have some late nights and then you're probably going to have some retraining of your brain to do. Like I was easily falling asleep by nine 30, 10 o 'clock before I went away this weekend. And then now,   Michelle (29:17.54) Look into that as well, because it's huge. It's free. Yeah. Yeah.   Michelle (29:28.964) Yeah.   Dr. Kelsey (29:46.862) like, okay, now we gotta start over and that's okay. Like, nothing wrong with that and there's gonna be times where that's worth it to you to go back to your night owl tendencies but the consistency of the majority of the time we are getting to bed at an appropriate hour for your cricketing rhythm and for your hormones and giving your body the time that it needs like for the nervous system like you said to rejuvenate and recoup and.   Michelle (29:49.316) Yeah, right. Yeah.   Michelle (29:57.604) Yeah.   Dr. Kelsey (30:14.67) and deal with all the stuff from the day before. And that really does bleed into your decision -making the next day, your nutrition, your cravings, but also your ability to handle stress in general. So that I think is a huge win for a lot of women and men, especially if we're identifying on our intake forms that...   Michelle (30:18.532) Yeah.   Michelle (30:23.555) It does. Yeah.   Michelle (30:31.236) 100%.   Dr. Kelsey (30:42.126) they're really, really stressed and then they're only sleeping five to six hours a night. It's like, well, we're never gonna be able to manage the stress that you are having unless we give your body the tools to do so. And sleep is a really big one.   Michelle (30:58.5) Yeah. It's like you need energy to cope with stress. Right. Well, to conceive, I mean, think about all the mitochondria we have in the egg cells and the, you know, like it's there for a reason. I mean, we need it. And, and actually on this topic, let's talk about melatonin because I know that melatonin is actually really important for egg quality, possibly sperm quality. I know more for egg quality. What are your thoughts on that?   Dr. Kelsey (31:01.358) Yeah, you need energy to live, so just go to sleep. Yes.   Dr. Kelsey (31:18.35) Hmm.   Dr. Kelsey (31:27.822) Yeah, I love melatonin. The IVF research is good in terms of seeing higher numbers of embryos form. So we make that assumption from an antioxidant perspective that it's improving egg quality, which we want. But we also see melatonin improving implantation rates in IVF pregnancy. So we're actually not just seeing.   a clinical pregnancy or we're not just seeing an embryo development improvement, we're actually seeing clinical pregnancy rate improvement. So we like melatonin and how I approach it is like, this is not for sleep. So it's not just for people who don't sleep well because the majority of time people who don't sleep well, it's actually not a melatonin problem. There's usually more of a sleep hygiene issue that has to be dealt with or stress, right?   Michelle (32:12.004) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm. Yes. Mm -hmm.   Dr. Kelsey (32:18.094) So I get asked that a lot, I was asked that just last week actually, like you put melatonin in my plan, but like I sleep well, do I still need to take this? And it's like, yeah, we're actually not using it for sleep. Maybe it might help you get deeper sleep, awesome. If it makes you feel groggy and gross in the morning, some people just can't hack melatonin, I can't. It does not, it makes my sleep opposite. So some people react poorly to it.   And if that's the case, it's just not the product for you on your fertility journey. And that's okay. No, there's lots of other things we can do. But the research is compelling enough. I'd love to see more male research because we haven't or I haven't seen a ton or anything really like pushing melatonin from a sperm perspective yet. But given the power of the antioxidant potential that it has, it wouldn't surprise me if it was also a really good option for men as well.   Michelle (32:49.636) Right, right.   Michelle (33:15.012) Yeah, cause we know that both men and women can benefit from antioxidants in general and really antioxidants work as an anti -ager. I mean, it's funny cause if you think about fertility health, just think anti -aging, like that's the protocol. And we can luckily, I mean, there are definitely things that we can do to actually change the biological clock, which is fascinating.   Dr. Kelsey (33:19.534) Mm -hmm. Yep.   Dr. Kelsey (33:27.79) Right. Yeah. We're literally wanting to turn the clock back a little bit.   Dr. Kelsey (33:41.198) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Michelle (33:43.204) Awesome. I mean, this is great conversation. We can keep talking. And I love, I really love the things that you brought up because they're important, you know, especially like the sperm, which gets ignored often. Sleep was another thing really that gets ignored often. And then the question about melatonin, I love melatonin and I love about what I love about it is that it's non habit forming. So you can get off of it and it's not going to impact your sleep.   Dr. Kelsey (34:08.398) Hmm.   Yeah, and people are always afraid about that. So I think that's a really important piece.   Michelle (34:13.188) Yeah, yeah. For sure, no doubt. So for people who are listening and want to hear more about you, you have a great Instagram also, by the way, with lots of amazing content. So how can people find you?   Dr. Kelsey (34:23.566) Thank you.   Dr. Kelsey (34:27.694) Yeah, come find me on Instagram at Fertility Confidence Method. And then I also host the Fertility Confidence Podcast. So there's tons of resources and information inside there. I do have a on -demand webinar that you can download. It's an hour long. We talk all about the fundamentals and five strategies to build your fertility confidence. So you can grab that at downloads .kelseyduncan .com slash on -demand.   Michelle (34:54.212) Awesome. Well, Kelsey, this is such a great conversation and we definitely hit it off from the beginning. I agree on a lot of what you talk about.    Dr. Kelsey (35:01.654) Thank you.   Dr. Kelsey (35:13.486) Mm.   Michelle (35:21.668) But thank you so much for coming on today.    Dr. Kelsey (35:26.734) thanks for having me, Michelle.

Sophia Ruan Gushée is a nontoxic lifestyle expert and author of A to Z of D-Toxing: The Ultimate Guide to Reducing Our Toxic Exposures and several detox workbooks. She is praised by experts in both medical and wellness fields for her practical approach to avoiding toxins and cultivating a healthier home environment. Sophia served on the Brown University School of Public Health Advisory Council and Well + Good Council. A graduate of Brown University and Columbia Business School, Sophia has helped thousands of people enjoy healthier lives by simplifying nontoxic living, while protecting the ease and convenience of modern life.   https://www.ruanliving.com/nontoxic-cleaning-guide-may   Website & Social media links (Facebook, instagram, twitter) - Instagram: @ruanliving, https://www.instagram.com/ruanliving/ - Facebook: Ruan Living, https://www.facebook.com/ruanliving - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/srgushee/ - TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ruanliving     For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:01) Welcome to the podcast, Sophia.   Sophia Gushee (00:03) Thank you for having me.   Michelle (00:05) It's a pleasure to have you and to talk about something that I feel is so important. It's definitely like an uphill battle. I think that a lot of people are facing, but can be done in a easier way and approached in easier way. And I'm really happy to have you on to talk about this important topic. But before we get started, I would love for you to introduce yourself and give us a background and what got you into the work that you're doing.   Sophia Gushee (00:34) I'd be happy to. I never could have imagined that I would be focused on simplifying non -toxic living. I grew up in upstate New York, always interested in eating healthy. I grew up in a tennis loving family. I exercised a lot since I was really young. And yet I always felt poor energy, felt really bad. And since...   People always said to me, you're the healthiest person I know. And I felt really bad. I just thought something was wrong with me. I ended up after graduating from college, working on Wall Street for about 10 years in distressed investing. So I would focus on high risk, high return investments with imperfect information. And my job was to figure out.   what are the value creation strategies we can execute to create the most value? And when I became a mom at age 34, I started accidentally learning about toxic chemicals, heavy metals, and radiation from what I was buying for my infant. And since I never heard about this before, my like,   highly respected physicians never put it on my radar. My reaction ended up being very similar to what I did professionally with distress investing. I had to figure out are there credible sources to back up what I'm reading? What are the good facts? Why do the physicians not know about this? And what's a reasonable level of concern?   always I ended up finding enough information that made me want to make a healthier choice. And I ended up developing a platform and a lifestyle to simplify how to make safer choices with shopping and simple things you do at home. So Ruan Living is based on the easy things you can do to reduce your toxic exposures. I ended up   spending about eight years sharing the science that I learned about that I wish I knew sooner in a book that was published in 2015 and that's called A to Z of Detoxing, The Ultimate Guide to Reducing Our Toxic Exposures. But since I never wanted to read a book about this, I just wanted an informed mom to tell me what I should know and what I could do in as little time as possible. And I never found that resource. I've been   building offerings to serve that desire of my younger self because learning how to not buy toxic exposures to bring into your home should not be as hard as it's been.   Michelle (03:40) Oh my God, when you said simplify, I'm like, yes, that is exactly what we need because I find, and I found this when I first started working with fertility and of course learned about what the impacts were from these endocrine disruptors and the toxins that were exposed to from the chemicals that are in our products to our like healthcare and not healthcare them.   I mean, the clean products in our, not clean products, I don't know why I'm getting, I'll delete this part. Cleaning products in our house, you know, there's so many different ways that it sneaks in, but it also in receipts, you know, things that you would never even consider. And then also pesticides and I mean, you can just like, you can keep going and EMFs too. That's another, that's a whole other topic.   Sophia Gushee (04:15) cleaning products.   Michelle (04:36) But yeah, we're exposed to a lot of things that we're not supposed to be exposed to. And when I first learned about this, I remember myself feeling overwhelmed, but then also being afraid to overwhelm my patients and my clients, because it can be really overwhelming to hear about. First of all, it makes you feel bad and then worried like, well, what happened up until this point? You know what I mean? I've been doing all these things and not realizing that I'm harming my body.   But secondly, how does one get started? You know, that it feels like such an uphill battle and it feels like it's so overwhelming. I think that that was one of the things that I always struggled with in explaining things to my patients.   Sophia Gushee (05:21) It's hard. Not everyone wants to know. And so I don't push it on people. But for those who are curious, I want them to know what I have to offer so that they can learn to modify things in their lifestyle and their purchases that they don't mind making. And the thing...   Michelle (05:25) Mm -hmm.   Sophia Gushee (05:49) The main thing is, I forgot to finish a point I started with. Even though I felt really poor energy most of my life, it wasn't until after I started detoxing my home and detoxing my diet and other things to reduce my toxic exposures that I started to feel better than ever. And this is now during a stage in my life where I don't eat as well as I used to.   I don't exercise as much as I used to. I have three kids, so I've been busy with that and working a ton. I don't sleep as well, and yet I feel better than ever. And I really do believe it's the reduced body burden that I undoubtedly now have. And when I look at images of mice who have been exposed to a lot of bisphenol A,   a popular hormone disrupting chemical found in many household products like plastics. And I see how obese the mouse is in comparison to the control mouse who was not exposed to BPA. I think that's how I felt like all of high school. So what I encourage people to do is to follow an elimination diet. Pick one thing.   one change you don't mind making often cleaning products is a really good start or your food containers or your pots and pans. Most people don't feel an emotional connection to those things and make a small change. And over time, you're going to feel really good about it, whether you feel better or you're just feeling empowered and you'll feel ready for another change. And over time,   There are a variety of symptoms that are alleviated for a lot of people, whether it's skin issues or energy or other outcomes. A lot of studies actually show that these toxic exposures are influencing reproductive health and assisted reproductive technology outcomes. So if you're struggling to get pregnant,   and you want to do everything you can for the healthiest pregnancy outcome possible, then detoxing your home and the other aspects of your life that you can do at a pace that's comfortable for you will be an invaluable investment for yourself and your offspring and also their offspring.   Michelle (08:35) Absolutely. Actually, let's talk about pots and pans because I feel like that's always a confusing subject. What are good ones that you recommend?   Sophia Gushee (08:47) I stick to the materials that have been around since before the Industrial Revolution. So cast iron, stainless steel, and glass are the staples in my home. After about 12, 13 years of just those pots and pans, which are black and metal, I went through a period of really missing color. And so I bought a ceramic   Michelle (08:58) Mm -hmm.   Sophia Gushee (09:17) cast iron skillet thinking at the time based on my research that that was probably safe and then after spending probably about $200, very expensive pan, but it was a very pretty pink. I read that it could have lead in it and so my practical approach is I'm not going to throw it out. I like seeing the color around. I use it sparingly and   Acidic foods like tomatoes can wear at the coating of cast iron and stainless steel. So you want to try and not like make tomato sauce in those materials. And so I eventually bought glass cookware. And so the glass is for the tomatoes and other acidic foods. But I also use the...   ceramic glazed cast iron sometimes.   Michelle (10:19) Got it. But the ceramic glazed cast iron, you were saying sometimes it can have lead. Is that what it is?   Sophia Gushee (10:25) Yeah, studies on ceramics and ceramic glazed cookware have found mixed results. Some of them have found lead and probably other toxic chemicals too. It's just, you know, if they were just testing for lead, that's all they're going to find. But if they tested for a longer list of things, I have no doubt they'd find other things.   Michelle (10:37) Mm -hmm.   God, I wish they just didn't do this in the first place. So it would make our life so much easier. No, that they didn't put these chemicals in there or these like things that are harmful for the human body.   Sophia Gushee (10:54) that they don't test.   Well, they serve a purpose. I mean, sometimes these toxic exposures or substances are there accidentally, not intentionally. But sometimes lead is often used in many household products to create a desired color, to create weight in costume jewelry and children's jewelry. So if you think about it, this   Michelle (11:08) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Sophia Gushee (11:27) like let's call it fake jewelry is made out of plastic. That's pretty light to make it feel more weighty, like a real, like, I don't know, heavy gold necklace. Heavy metals are used. And when lead has been replaced, it's often been replaced by cadmium, another heavy metal that is also toxic. So I have a 40 -day home detox that really tries to...   Michelle (11:49) Mm -hmm.   Sophia Gushee (11:55) inform your common sense in this way because it's not really practical or effective to avoid chemical by chemical. I started out when I started learning about this topic, I developed a list of chemicals to avoid. So I'd read product labels to avoid BPA or phthalates or parabens. And then I just realized that substitute chemicals are   Michelle (12:07) Mm -hmm.   Sophia Gushee (12:24) not always safer, sometimes they're more harmful. So BPA, for example, is a chemical that is used in the inner lining of canned foods and plastics on receipts, as you said earlier. In trying to use a safer formula or less controversial one, manufacturers would replace it with things like BPS or others.   and scientists have found that BPS can be even more harmful. And so I ended up, you know, it is, we're now shifting, like governments are shifting towards regulating families of chemicals, which is much more impactful. For example, California is looking to regulate the family of forever chemicals, not just specific ones, like specific forever chemicals, like   Michelle (12:56) Oh, wow.   Mm -hmm.   Sophia Gushee (13:22) PFOA or PFOS. But I actually in my book, A to Z of Detoxing, identified what I call household repeat offenders. So as you get to know materials or just things like, like I was saying, colors in your home, in like costume jewelry and ceramics, and understand that colors are used.   for example, lead and cadmium used to create weight or lead is used to deepen, I think it's red or orange. I specify this in the 40 day home detox program. It just tells your common sense, oh, that's high risk. Most likely there's a heavy metal in there to create that rich deep color or to create weight for plastic. But...   Michelle (14:10) Mm -hmm.   Sophia Gushee (14:19) I forgot your question.   Michelle (14:20) Oh, no. I mean, it's just, it's just, yeah, it's all, it's all important. Like I think it's all important because when it comes to really understanding and kind of navigating through this, it could be very overwhelming. And one of the things is like you were saying, when you're focusing on one ingredient at a time, I mean, who can remember all of those things? That's the reality. Another thing that comes to my mind too, is you would think like,   Sophia Gushee (14:23) Pots and pans, lots of hands.   Yeah.   Michelle (14:48) water or like a sparkling water, I know a lot of them have forever chemicals in them.   Sophia Gushee (14:56) Yeah, water is tricky. Bottled water will have lots of micro plastics or nano plastics if it's in a plastic bottle, but even tap water can get contaminated through the pipes and the kitchen fixtures. So I think it's really worth investing in a water filter that is comfortable for your budget.   Michelle (15:06) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Sophia Gushee (15:24) Any level of filtration is better than none. But just going back to pots and pans, just so listeners know there's a resource. I have a blog on my website that's the most popular blog on my website and it's on pots and pans. And so I list the specific ones that I use for my home because it is, I research every product I can. I find it.   Michelle (15:26) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Sophia Gushee (15:51) not only important but intellectually really interesting and even some stainless steel pots and pans, you know, they're not all the same and glass is not all the same. So I try and make it really easy for people to click and buy if that's what they want to do or share my thought process so people can do their own research.   Michelle (16:01) Mm -hmm.   Right.   That's awesome. So you do have a lot of resources on specific brands or what you've looked into that is clean. Like another thing is spatulas, you know, they say that the silicone spatulas are better because they could withstand high heat, but then sometimes they, they overlay rubber, which isn't good. So I don't know. What are your thoughts on that?   Sophia Gushee (16:43) I'd like to use the example of chocolate chip cookies. There's so many formulas, there's so many recipes for chocolate chip cookies. I grew up with chocolate chip cookies being made of white... Well, if you think about it, I grew up with chocolate chip cookies being really unhealthy. They were made of white sugar, white flour, bad oils. And nowadays there's some really great...   Michelle (16:55) I am now craving chocolate chip cookies.   Sophia Gushee (17:12) paleo recipes made of almond flour. I'm making it up. I don't know if it's almond flour, but like super healthy flour, healthier sugars, healthier chocolate. It can almost be healthier than most American breakfast options. And that idea is true for plastics, for silicone.   for glass, for stainless steel. It depends on the recipe. And so silicone, I'm skeptical of. I'm sure like ideally medical grade silicone is what you wanna use. So for things like pacifiers or baby bottle nipples, I did my best to find medical grade silicone. For cooking, I avoided silicone and plastics for a while.   Michelle (17:43) Mm -hmm.   Sophia Gushee (18:07) I would just use wooden spatulas and metal just when I need it. But you want to be careful not to use metal on cast iron and stainless steel because the scratching of the surface, even if you have nonstick pots and pans, scratches just facilitate the leaching of chemicals and metals into your food. So wood is better. But sometimes, like if you're making pancakes or you want to scoop up an egg,   from your pan then silicone. I finally bought one silicone spatula.   Michelle (18:43) So yeah, so in certain circumstances, but ultimately would be the best.   Sophia Gushee (18:50) Wood is ideal. And if I remember correctly, I read this trick to tell if silicone was high risk. And if you bend it, like some bakeware is made of silicone, even a spatula, you can maybe like bend the tip. If you can see, let's say your spatula is a blue silicone. If you see a little white and you bend it, then that's a signal that it might not be the healthiest.   Michelle (19:14) Right.   Sophia Gushee (19:20) So let's go.   Michelle (19:20) Right, because it has rubber inside. Yeah, I remember reading that as well. I was like, oh, that's interesting. So some are just better quality that they're like more thorough or there's a certain grading, right?   Sophia Gushee (19:23) Yeah.   next.   Yeah, there are love different levels of purity.   Michelle (19:38) Awesome. And then are there filters you recommend? I know I'm getting into the details, but I know that I have those questions and I think a lot of people do. It's like all those details are things that people know because water is so important. And of course they had Berkey, which was huge. Now they shut down. So like what's next? Yeah, I heard this is what I heard. I mean, I have, I have one and I have one at my office, but I know, but I did actually hear.   Sophia Gushee (19:42) Yeah, I know, I'm happy to see it.   versus Chess now.   Michelle (20:08) And I don't know that they had like a lawsuit and they lost. And so they shut it down. So now that there are other companies that distribute them, but you don't know which one's official. So it's kind of, I'm not sure.   Sophia Gushee (20:26) Excuse me.   I have spent so much time on water filtration and air filtration. I...   Michelle (20:33) Yeah.   Sophia Gushee (20:40) This is what I do. I have, I'm so paranoid about what's in the water that I have invested to the best of my ability. And so under our kitchen sink, we have a nine stage water filtration system. So there's reverse osmosis, which removes everything, but one water.   Michelle (20:59) Mm -hmm.   Sophia Gushee (21:09) expert explained to me, I'd never heard it before and I couldn't verify it online, but it kind of made sense. One water expert said to me that if you're drinking water that's stripped of everything and therefore unbalanced, as it goes through your body, it's looking to balance itself so it can leach your bones of minerals and take in other ways.   Michelle (21:28) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah, I heard about that.   Sophia Gushee (21:33) So that made me really nervous. So I also have other materials in the water filtration system to rebalance the water. There's also activated carbon. And in our country home, we also have, our country home is in an area that has cancer clusters. So I'm even more paranoid about water out there. So I have a whole house water filtration system. So it's about, I think,   Michelle (21:55) Oh, wow.   Sophia Gushee (22:03) I don't know how many pounds, like a huge tank of activated carbon in our basement. So all the water entering our home gets filtered through the activated carbon and then distributed throughout the rest of our home, which was important to me at the time I installed it because my young kids were taking long backs. And...   Michelle (22:26) Mm -hmm.   Sophia Gushee (22:29) but I still felt like I don't think that's enough, because there's just so much bad activity around our country home with a pharmaceutical company there and like some industrial activity. And so I also installed this nine stage water filtration system under the sink. But if you can't do that for whatever reason, then even a...   picture with activated carbon is better than nothing. When I travel, I have water bottles that have a water filtration system in the water bottle. Because I notice when I travel, I end up not really drinking water because I'm afraid to drink water. And so that's helped. But my kids won't use it. They all have it, but they refuse to drink from it. So I'll keep trying.   Michelle (23:00) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   I know the kids don't like to listen to us sometimes, but also when you use that, so you were talking about that charcoal. So that's not reverse osmosis. It's too simple. Right. So it just basically cleans it out with the charcoal.   Sophia Gushee (23:37) That's not.   the water filter, the water bottle.   Michelle (23:44) The water, yeah.   No, no, the water filter in the house. You had mentioned that you had the charcoal and then you had the night.   Sophia Gushee (23:51) The basement has just the activated charcoal. And so that's actually a specific thing you want to ask for because not all charcoal is the same. So you want activated charcoal. And that just absorbs a lot of toxins. But after the water gets distributed through the pipes, it's going to pick up other things from the pipes.   Michelle (23:59) Okay.   Sophia Gushee (24:18) But also I don't think the activated charcoal is necessarily getting the forever chemicals or nanoplastics. So that's why I feel crazy talking about this or admitting it, but I then have the nine -stage water filtration system underneath the spout for drinking water. And it's just for drinking water. I don't use it for cooking.   Michelle (24:41) Mm -hmm. It's not crazy. That's the thing. It's not crazy to want clean water. You know, it's really not. It's just so common to really be exposed to things we shouldn't be exposed to that we have to go out of our way to add all these reinforcements in order to just have clean water, you know, in our life.   Sophia Gushee (25:07) Plus, I was learning about all the contaminants in water with really young kids and during pregnancies and nursing and knowing how influential these toxic exposures can be to young developing life. I would do anything to protect my children from these endocrine disruptors and neurotoxicants and carcinogens.   So I did my best, but it was really hard to figure out. It really took probably over 10 years because not all the water filtration experts had a holistic understanding of my concern. So it just took many conversations and it took a while to find experts that were informed.   Michelle (26:02) And are there ones you recommend or do you have anything on your website of which types of water filtration you recommend from like a pitcher to something under your sink?   Sophia Gushee (26:15) I don't remember if I do in the blog. I have a detox Academy. It's a membership where that's where I am much more personal about the products in my home. I share a lot on the blog too, but I often, I, I often want to be able to provide more context for things because nothing's perfect. So I just want to be able. So in my detox Academy, there's more context for.   Michelle (26:28) Mm -hmm.   Yeah.   Sophia Gushee (26:44) the pros and cons of a product, why I chose it. So for example, sunscreen. I reevaluate every year. It's highly complex. When my kids are really young, there is a certain brand of sunscreen that was rated the most non -toxic, but it's a thick white cream. So as my kids became more verbal, they're like, no. And now they're teenage girls. And so,   Michelle (26:48) Mm -hmm.   Yes, and the kids don't like it. They don't like it. Yeah.   Sophia Gushee (27:14) branding matters, you know, like there are a lot of things that go into whether a teenage girl is going to reapply or apply sunscreen. So I had to go more toxic with some products. And so I just explain a lot more of those personal things in the detox academy because I was raised being told if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all. And so I just am shy or reserved about.   Michelle (27:17) Oh yeah.   Mm -hmm, right.   Sophia Gushee (27:43) talking about brands or products that are more toxic, but in the detox academy, I'll say, you know, this brand has a higher toxicity rating, but I use it because if I don't, then my children won't reapply sunscreen.   Michelle (27:45) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   But no, it makes sense. I mean, I think it is something that can be addressed in a balanced way because otherwise, I mean, it'll, it'll create your, you know, it'll really create a lot of stress, which I feel like is also toxic. So you got to do it in a way that's balanced and sensible and a way that works.   Sophia Gushee (28:21) Yeah, it's really important to not aim to be perfect about it and non -toxic does not exist. That's why I often say, like my podcast is called Practical Non -Toxic Living because you also have to enjoy life and that means taking risks and branding.   Michelle (28:30) Right.   Yeah, it's true.   Sophia Gushee (28:48) Brings a lot of joy to teenage girls.   Michelle (28:50) For sure. Well, I'm glad that you're saying that because I think that that is, you know, it's definitely an important aspect to address because I do think that that's what happens. It's like with anything you start to learn about it. You almost become almost like a toxic phobe. It's just like we become germaphobes when we have that microscope that we could see what it looks like, you know, so it starts to get in our minds and we're like, oh my God, I don't want that.   And there's this like high level of resistance. And the truth is we really can't resist all of it. We cannot go completely clean. So it is important to realize that always it's never going to be perfect. And that's okay. I mean, part of it is obviously trying to alleviate the body's load, but it also, another part of it is actually making the body adaptable, you know, so the body adapts because the body knows how to detoxify as well.   I mean, I know there's activated charcoal that people can take as well to help take out the toxins or bind to toxins in the body. So it's a real holistic balance for sure.   Sophia Gushee (29:58) I really think of it as yoga off the mat. And I just, I support conscious, just conscious choices and whatever you choose, you shouldn't judge yourself. I had a client who was trying to help her mom detox her home, just detox cleaning products. And the mom was so resistant. And finally, after a few years, the mom finally admitted,   Michelle (30:09) Mm -hmm.   Sophia Gushee (30:28) I just love my certain perfume and my red lipstick and I'm so afraid you're going to tell me it's so toxic I can't use it. And I said, tell your mom that she can hold on to what she loves and there will be plenty of other changes that she won't mind making. And that's really my philosophy. Hold on to what you love or what brings you great convenience. Let's work together on finding the changes you won't mind making.   Michelle (30:37) Yeah.   Yeah.   That's actually really important. I mean, I will say like that, you know, my daughter likes this one perfume and, and it's not a non -toxic perfume, but I feel like if I get so strict, it's going to cause the opposite effect. And I said, okay, it's not a big deal. Just put it on your clothes, not on your skin. You know, sometimes you just do it once in a while and it's not like every day. So it's like, I think that that's a great way to look at it. It's just like, it doesn't have to be.   all or nothing and a little bit it's not going to like be the end all be all like make such a big deal.   Sophia Gushee (31:36) I'm sorry. It was really meaningful to me when I spoke to the former dean of the School of Public Health at Brown University, Bess Marcus, who did a lot of research on behavioral change with smokers, cigarette smokers. And a lot of her research in the 60s and 70s, she ended up using in her visits.   to physicians to educate physicians on what scientists were understanding about the health risks from cigarette smoking. And after a while, a lot of when she would revisit the physicians, they often were really demoralized and they would say, I tell my patients that if they don't stop smoking cigarettes, their chances of lung cancer are gonna be much higher, but they won't quit. So what's the point?   There's no point. And she said, the research shows that a patient, a smoker needs to hear this message at least seven times before the smoker will consider changing. So you have to be among the voice of seven, which helped me so much because if you're trying to educate your children, for example,   Michelle (32:48) Mm.   Sophia Gushee (33:01) to know that your goal shouldn't be to get them to stop something right away and listen to you, but just to be among the voices of the messages that will give them the right information or the right goals, then at some point, maybe they'll listen to it, but you really can't control other people. You shouldn't try. It'll just ruin your relationship. And so all we can do is just try and be a voice out there without the expectation of,   Michelle (33:21) It's true. Yeah, 100%.   It's true.   Sophia Gushee (33:31) controlling behavior.   Michelle (33:33) Oh, 100%. I think that you teach and if people want to take it, they take it. If they can't, if they don't want to, you know, we're all given free will. I have a very big proponent of that because it's important to respect that in others. And ultimately it's their decision. Um, but educate, I, I'm really big on, I think that it's so important to educate people and let them know, because then, then you can make an informed decision. However, that decision wants to end up.   but you can make an informed decision because you have information to make that decision. And then if you choose to ignore certain things, that's your choice, but you at least you know before making that decision.   Sophia Gushee (34:14) Yeah.   Yeah, I just think people have a right to know if you're a health conscious person, then often this is an overlooked pillar of health that can be really empowering.   Michelle (34:29) of without a doubt. And then let's talk about actually EMFs, because you had mentioned that I've seen that on your list. So EMFs are definitely something that a lot of it's invisible. So I think that sometimes out of sight out of mind, we can't smell it, we can't really hear it. It's like invisible, but we know it's there and we read about it, but sometimes forget about it. And it's something that we use, especially like if you're going to a library, I mean, anywhere that   even a hotel, you know, with all the wifi, it's there in so many places. So talk about the role of EMF and how that can impact reproductive health.   Sophia Gushee (35:14) I'll start by trying to explain EMFs in a way that can maybe help listeners visualize it, because I think that has helped me. So I now think of EMFs as just radiation. It's just energy. I think of it as energy. And our cell phones, for example, will maybe use energy from a 3G wavelength or   maybe 4G also and 5G and Bluetooth, then cellular, 3G, 4G, 5G, Bluetooth, Wi -Fi, cellular, their energy wavelengths will differ, but also like the, there are other things about the wavelengths that will be different. So Bluetooth, for example, will be something like,   whereas Wi -Fi will maybe be more gentle. And if you think of sound as energy too, but that it's almost like a harsh wavelength, it's pecking at our membranes. So if you have Bluetooth earphones in your ear, the...   Michelle (36:31) Mm -hmm.   Sophia Gushee (36:42) that part of your skull is actually really vulnerable. So even if you're not using the earphones, it's open. So the earbuds are still trying to, they still emit energy towards each other through your skull. A wonderful scientist named Debra Davis, she's highly accomplished. She,   Michelle (36:49) Because it's open. It's open.   Sophia Gushee (37:11) She was integral in banning smoking on cigarette planes decades ago. She has been, God bless her, she's been pioneering science on how these electromagnetic fields from our technology are affecting our health and development and reproductive health outcomes. Side note, she won a Nobel Prize with   Michelle (37:18) God bless her.   Sophia Gushee (37:40) Vice President Al Gore on their work for climate change. So she's an amazing scientist, but she...   I just lost my train of thought.   Michelle (37:55) That happens to me all the time. We were talking about the earbuds and the yeah.   Sophia Gushee (37:59) the earbud. She has, uh, she's published a few wonderful books, but she just re -released a book called Disconnect, which explains the science on how radiation from things like our cell phones and laptops are threatening our health and wellbeing. So if listeners want to get a great overview on that, I highly recommend Disconnect. And I also have...   one podcast episode with Debra Davis on the Practical Non -Toxic Living podcast if they want to listen and her executive director is on another one. But she and another great scientist, David Carpenter, were part of a team that filed a lawsuit against the FCC for not considering   the scientific studies, the peer -reviewed scientific studies that have come out since the wireless standards were set in 1996. And the judge ruled in their favor. But the judge said to the FCC, you have these list of things you have to now respond to, but there's no deadline for the FCC to respond by. So progress isn't really going to go anywhere, but at least the judge acknowledged that   standards need to be updated and the FCC needs to consider what scientists have learned since 1996. But studies have shown that laptop radiation and cell phone radiation near like the male reproductive area damages sperm quality. So men should be really mindful of where they place the laptop and...   Michelle (39:44) Mm -hmm.   Sophia Gushee (39:51) If you're going to have a cell phone on your body, ideally you don't, but that's really hard to do nowadays. If it is on your body, the perfect solution is to turn off your phone. Most people can't do that. The next best thing is to disable cellular Wi -Fi and Bluetooth. And so I just work on having my family members, my children and my husband use airplane mode to disable those things.   Michelle (40:19) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Sophia Gushee (40:21) And so when you're walking, just know you're taking, you're disconnecting, taking a little break. And then when you need to check your messages, then you can easily enable all that. So that's, that's how I approach EMFs. So male sperm quality, sperm quality is easier to measure than female reproductive health. So even though they're,   scientists don't know how radiation affects our ovaries or the DNA in our reproductive in the ovaries, that doesn't mean that it doesn't cause harm. It's just the studies for women are much more complex.   Michelle (41:10) Right, right. I mean, if it impacts men, you would imagine, I mean, and then a lot of people put their laptop on their bodies or they put like other devices on their bodies. I've, you know, people have the Apple watch, you know, all the basically the smartwatches and it's constantly on their body. And I, I look at it from a Chinese medicine perspective and how we have energetic meridians and we do have an energetic body around us.   and it's intelligent. So having anything interfere with that definitely impacts our bodies and our vitality. And, you know, so I definitely think about that. And let me ask you, what are your thoughts? Because some people say the 5G is like the most strong radiation. So I always have my kids opt in for LTE.   And I do myself on my phone because I'm like, okay, maybe it's a little less radiation. Maybe it's not as good quality, but like the radiation is a little lower. I mean, I don't even know anymore.   Sophia Gushee (42:17) They, again, all the like 3G, 4G, 5G, they're just different layers of energy. And so I think of the home as a sea of radiation. So the more you can take out or silence, the better for you, the less burden on your body. So it's hard. I mean, I live in New York City and I think what I aim to do with, I'm always using airplane mode.   Michelle (42:22) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Yeah.   Sophia Gushee (42:47) which annoys most people that they can't call me and reach me right away, but so be it. But my, you know, I have to work within like, what can I ask of my family that won't have them completely reject everything I ask. And so for me right now, I'm just trying to get them to use airplane mode when they don't need to be wirelessly connected. If you're able to,   Michelle (42:51) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Yes.   Sophia Gushee (43:16) have your family, your loved ones do even more than that, then that's better. It's just less of a stressor on your body. And so I just want to make the point again that some of these wavelengths like Bluetooth can weaken your membrane. So for example, studies show that cell phone radiation can weaken the blood brain barrier.   which protects our brain from toxic compounds in the blood. So just keep in mind that idea that if you never give your body a break from a growing intensity of radiation in our environment, at home, school, work, even public areas, then your organs like your brain are more likely to...   be more vulnerable to toxic compounds in your blood and elsewhere. So that's why it's just important to be mindful and to be able to create recovery periods for your body. And so the bedroom is a great area to focus on. It's hard to control many things in life and sometimes even in our homes if we live with other people.   Michelle (44:29) Mm -hmm.   Sophia Gushee (44:39) But the bedroom is a really good focus because hopefully you're sleeping seven to eight hours. You won't miss being wirelessly disconnected. So just make that energy in your sleep area be as silent as possible so your body can get higher quality sleep and be more resilient to what we can't control.   Michelle (45:02) Yeah, one of the things that I love is earthing or getting a grounding mat because it does absorb excess like, you know, frequencies in our body just brings it down and it does it's been shown to help with inflammation. I mean, it does so much so much to help the body. I feel like it is one way we can kind of organize our energy again, like our body's energy.   a way that is, you know, it gives us something that we can do to help. And then I've also read about shungite. And I think that there was a study done on shungite because of its high carbon content that does tend to neutralize radiation.   Sophia Gushee (45:49) Yes, I'm actually wearing a shangite now.   Michelle (45:51) Oh, look at you and I have this look.   Sophia Gushee (45:57) Bye.   After talking to scientists about different EMF protection products and other experiences, I'm now at a place where I like to assume they don't work just because I don't want to have a false sense of security. Because some products, some EMF protection products, especially ones that you plug into an electrical outlet, sometimes they cause more   Michelle (46:21) Right.   Sophia Gushee (46:33) harm than good or they just create. So for example, you can, for example, I have a router which I can't move outside a daughter's bedroom. So her bedroom gets a lot of radiation and an EMF expert recommended paint that   to paint her walls, special paint that would block out the radiation. It took me years later and another EMF expert to realize that the cell phone towers beaming into her bedroom from outside her apartment that are on rooftops across the street.   bounce off the walls of her painted walls and create a chaotic energy that's even more stressful for my daughter's body. I don't really know what's true, what the big picture is, but it just made me nervous about. That's one example among others that made me feel like I don't really know how to use these things safely. And so I am.   Michelle (47:28) Mm.   Yeah.   Yeah.   Sophia Gushee (47:51) Like I think shungite probably does work, but how much shungite do we need? Like plants do detox the air, but for plants to be an effective air purifier, you probably have to live in a greenhouse. You need a lot of plants.   Michelle (47:55) Bye.   Right, right, right. This is true. I mean, yeah, we could definitely like, we can keep going and dive deep and, and, you know, enter the rabbit hole, go down the rabbit hole with so many of these things. So I definitely, I could see that for sure, but it is important to know.   Sophia Gushee (48:23) But natural ways of earthing, like I'm a big proponent of, which is just skin contact with earth. I really like on grass and soil, the sea is great, immersing yourself in sea water and the ocean, those are really excellent healing ways to ground.   Michelle (48:32) Yeah.   No doubt nature is incredible and it really knows how to balance us. I mean, because we are part of nature, it's designed that way. So it is pretty amazing. So, I mean, this is just such a great conversation. I could literally pick your brain for hours. And I love some of the things that we talked about, really good information. And for people who are interested and want to learn more, how can they find you? Where should they go?   on your website or, you know, navigate through this.   Sophia Gushee (49:19) My website is great. The newsletter is the best way to follow the podcast, the detox academy, 40 day home detox and new blog articles and so much more. So I also have detox workshops online. So Ruan living R U A N is a Nancy living .com has also and I can share this link with you. I have a free.   non -toxic cleaning guide, which is super helpful in explaining the safest way to clean your home.   Michelle (49:58) Awesome. Yeah, that would be great. So Sophia, thank you so much for coming on today. This is such an informative episode. I really appreciate everything that you shared today. So thank you so much.   Sophia Gushee (50:11) My pleasure.

Alexandria DeVito, MS, CNS, is a functional nutritionist who specializes in fertility and preconception health. She is the author of 9 Months Is Not Enough: The Ultimate Pre-pregnancy Checklist to Create a Baby-Ready Body and Build Generational Health. She is also the founder and CEO of Poplin, the first pre-pregnancy wellness company. Prior to founding Poplin, Alexandria worked in management consulting at McKinsey & Company. She holds an MBA from Harvard Business School. She also has a master's degree in nutrition; extensive training as a doula, yoga teacher, and personal trainer; and is an Institute for Functional Medicine Certified Practitioner, all of which inform her approach to pre-pregnancy wellness.   https://getpoplin.com https://www.instagram.com/getpoplin/ https://www.facebook.com/getpoplin   Click here to find out how to get the first chapter of "The Way of Fertility" for free.   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/   Summary of this episode:   Alexandria DeVito shares her journey from working in the corporate world to becoming a fertility health advocate. She obtained an MBA from Harvard and a master's degree in nutrition while working in healthcare. She then trained in functional medicine and started seeing clients as a nutritionist. Many of her clients were struggling to conceive, which led her to focus on fertility health. The conversation explores the challenges of fertility struggles and the lack of preconception health guidelines in clinical practice. It highlights the emotional, physical, and financial toll of fertility struggles and the need for better preparation and support. The conversation discusses the importance of preconception care and the impact it can have on the health of both parents and future generations. It highlights the challenges faced by females in accessing comprehensive medical care, which often focuses on contraception rather than preconception care. The conversation emphasizes that there is no such thing as starting preconception care too early or too late. Our bodies were designed to conceive, but our modern environments create a mismatch. Factors such as nutrition, supplements, and stress can affect fertility.      Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Alexandria.   Alexandria DeVito (00:03) Thank you so much for having me.   Michelle (00:05) So we just had a really great pre-talk and we definitely are on the same page on so many things. And what I love about you is that you are here really to empower couples on the fertility journey. I got to look at your book. I was very excited because I feel like I really resonate with the   And I just love the fact that you really approach it from such an empowering perspective. Absolutely love that. But for the listeners, I would love for you to share your background, how you got into the work that you do.   Alexandria DeVito (00:38) Hmm, you got it.   Yes, I mean, I think there's a lot of alignment philosophically about, you know, just how much more agency we have over our reproductive health and all the different ways that we can prepare to conceive, which I'm sure we will talk all about. So I came into the world of fertility actually, initially through the corporate world. So I was doing corporate consulting and was working in healthcare, largely with pharmaceutical companies and medical device companies. So I kind of learned the healthcare landscape from that lens.   enjoyed working in healthcare. I thought it was just such an incredibly impactful field. And at some point I decided that I wanted to switch from what I felt was operating in a more reactive model of healthcare to a more proactive one. And so that was the impetus for me to go back to school. I went back and got my MBA from Harvard and then I also did a part-time Masters in nutrition on the side.   while I was doing my MBA. And that was my way of adding more tools into my toolkit that were more holistic in nature. And then I finished both of my master's degrees, and I did training and functional medicine, and started seeing clients one-on-one as a nutritionist. And basically what ended up happening was I had a lot of clients that were struggling to conceive, and they had been on fairly long journeys, sometimes a year, two years, three years, and they were being   ping-ponged between different providers and they still weren't getting the answers that they so deeply desired and they were not getting pregnant. And it really struck me, why was this happening? And so you know initially they were saying like do you have any other suggestions? Can you tell me what I should be doing? And this was also happening with friends. Friends of mine were also struggling coming to me not in a professional capacity but in a personal capacity asking for my advice and guidance.   And initially I was really perplexed, right? This seems like an important problem. This seems like a solvable problem. What the heck is going on here? And so inspired by my functional medicine training, I started running these really broad panels of tests that.   essentially were screening mechanisms. I looked at the clinical literature and saw all the reasons that could potentially interfere with someone's ability to get pregnant. And once I started running these broad screening tests, a whole bunch of things started flagging that my clients, other providers, had never even tested in the first place.   And that was what really inspired me to say, wait a minute, like, why are we waiting until someone is several years into a fertility struggle? It is emotionally, physically, financially draining in most cases. Why are we waiting to find out these things that we could have found out before they even started their journey? And so that really inspired my exploration of preconception health, which is essentially the preparation period before and between pregnancy is, which we can talk more about.   And I realized that there have been preconception guidelines over 40 years at this point, but they're not being implemented in clinical practice. And then certainly, if we think about ancient practices, which this is your specialty, these have been around for thousands and thousands of years. But we're not implementing them.   And so I just felt that there was an opportunity to rewrite the dialogue and to really give people so many more tools to prepare to get pregnant like they prepare for any other major milestone, a wedding, a career, right? Even buying a house today has more infrastructure and support. And so that's really been my journey and the impetus and really spreading the word around this concept of preconception health and all the things that you can do on both a macro level and a micro level.   to optimize it and build generational health.   Michelle (04:25) I mean, I love this topic and I just, you know, it pains me that it's not mainstream, that this is just not information that people get. And I feel like they do get it after digging and finding. it would be so nice if people just knew this information because it's so important. And so let's go to that topic of really preparing the body.   Alexandria DeVito (04:33) Mm-hmm.   Michelle (04:52) because I think that is just something that most people don't even consider. Nobody really is told that. It's not something that anybody really has access to. I mean, the only access that you really have is like high school health education, where they tell you not to conceive and that anybody blinks and they get pregnant. And so just about your body and how it really works. And then,   Alexandria DeVito (05:07) Hahaha   See you soon.   Michelle (05:20) it's that like the red pill that we swallow and realize like what's really happening and what's the reality and it's so different than what we've been told. So let's talk about preconception care like why is it important and how long do people really need to consider preparing themselves before conception?   Alexandria DeVito (05:42) You had so many important points in what you just said that I, you know, I think it's actually really helpful. I want to elaborate on them and, you know, and amplify what you said. First, right, I think it's true. We don't get updated sexual education information in most cases, right? The last time most people had any sort of sexual education, it may have been in middle school or in high school, where presumably the goal is to prevent teen pregnancies. So the message that we are giving people...   in that context is very different from the message that we might want to give to someone who's in their 20s, 30s, 40s, who's actively trying to conceive, right? But there aren't great mechanisms to update that information, right? And so I think that's one of the first challenges. I think the second challenge is that we are very bifurcated in our medical care for females, where we're either focused on contraception, so preventing pregnancy, or pregnancy.   right, managing a pregnancy that is already in process. But this intervening period, this preconception period, when once we are stopping contraception and pursuing pregnancy, is almost been forgotten about. And I think it deserves its own conversation. And that's why I'm so happy to be here today talking about it, is I didn't even know preconception was a thing before I started researching it. And proper preconception care has   big benefits. Number one is it makes it easier to get pregnant, and then number two, it increases the likelihood of having a healthy pregnancy and a baby. And it's certainly been known, been shown to reduce the complications of any sort of birth complications, pregnancy complications, and then also fertility challenges. And so this is relevant, whether it's your first pregnancy or your fifth pregnancy.   it's relevant whether you're 23 or 43, right? And sometimes it can be even more relevant for subsequent pregnancies because a female's body can be so depleted of nutrients in a previous pregnancy or hormones may be dysregulated. I'm sure this is something that you see a lot of the time as well, right? And so what you do in the preconception window is incredibly important because it's been shown to affect the lifelong trajectory of the health for your child through the epigenetic markers in egg.   and sperm. So it's just such a profoundly impactful time period where you're not only affecting your health and your reproductive partner's health, but that of your future child and even your child's children and beyond. It's wild.   Michelle (08:18) Right. I know, isn't that crazy? The thought of that. Yeah. It's pretty wild. So how long would you say, generally speaking, how long do you think people should really consider pre-conception care, like before even conceiving?   Alexandria DeVito (08:34) Yes. So what I generally say is, look, there's no such thing as too early. So if you're an overachiever and you want to start this early and you're thinking about pregnancy even in a couple of years, no such thing as too early. There's also no such thing as too late. Even if you've already struggled to conceive and or are about to pursue an assisted reproductive cycle, you can still be making these changes. Your body is incredibly, incredibly resilient. That being said, generally speaking,   what I recommend is usually about a year, right? So kind of what you're doing in the three, six, 12 months prior to conceiving is the timeframe that your body is gonna be most susceptible, either positively or negatively, to what's going on in and around your life cycle. And that is true on the female reproductive side, where the last stage of egg maturation is around three to four months and kind of their susceptibility to what you're eating.   environmental toxins and you're stress-loaded in that period of time, and sometimes we need multiple of those cycles. And the same thing for male sperm development. That's around three months, so again we may need multiple cycles depending on our starting point. But it actually takes about a year, the current literature is saying, for an egg to kind of move from its you know essentially sleeping beauty like state all the way through to ovulation. So that's just the time periods when we're thinking biologically what we want to keep in mind.   Michelle (09:58) And so what are the things that you would suggest or what are some of the things that you would say people should look at? I mean, I know there's so and I know nutrition's a huge part in certain supplements, but I'd love to get your, your thoughts on that.   Alexandria DeVito (10:12) Absolutely. Yeah, so here's what I would generally say. Our bodies were designed to conceive, but our modern environments were not. Right? And so there's a mismatch now between our genes and our environment.   and our environment today is communicating to our bodies that we are in a reso unsafe environment on a pretty regular basis. And when we are in a reso unsafe environment, our body down-regulates reproductive function because it says, wait a minute, probably not the best environment into which to bring a child, so let's put it on pause right now. And so when I think about what are the factors that are driving   as auspicious to conceiving. There's the macro level and then you know kind of what's going on for most of us, and then there's the micro level. So I'll split it into those two. On the macro level, you certainly alluded to several of these, right? We're eating a lot of food and we're getting not very much nutrition, right? So we're eating more food-like substances, less food, less nutrient density of food, less balanced.   Michelle (11:13) Mm-hmm.   Alexandria DeVito (11:20) diets, more blood sugar imbalanced diets, right? So these sorts of things are not conducive to fertility, and that's become the norm, not lately. A second big one is environmental chemicals that are coming at us through our food, our water, our air, our personal care products, our home care products, and I think particularly for females who are using, tend to use more personal care products than our male counterparts. You know, if   One of your products has these endocrine disrupting chemicals in them, probably not that big of a deal, but when it's kind of like our shampoos and our conditioners and our makeup and you know our lipstick and our soaps and right, you know, it starts to add up and our bodies were just not designed to deal with this level of toxic load. Our bodies can naturally detoxify, but when it's all day every day, it becomes much, much harder for our body to excrete these compounds that we're not meant to be dealing with. So environmental toxins are another one.   Stress levels, I think are another important one. We are more stressed and stretched than ever before. The data suggests this. We are sleeping less soundly and less cumulatively. And what happens there is our sex hormones and our stress hormones are in the same biochemical pathway. And our bodies will always prioritize survival over procreation. So kind of what, to what I was saying earlier, if your body thinks, oh, this is, we're in war basically, or we're in an unsafe environment,   it's going to down-regulate reproductive function and switch from making your sex hormones to making your stress hormones because it thinks it's adaptive, it thinks it's protecting you. And what happens then is you don't have the raw materials, A, to get a regular menstrual cycle and ovulate, but then B, to carry a baby, right? So that's a big one that I see. And then the last kind of big one that I'll touch on is just movement. We've...   significantly increase the sedentary-ness of our jobs even, and we you know we don't have to walk more than five feet if we don't want to right there's planes, trains, automobiles, right even scooters can kind of get us from point to point, and so when we think about movement the important thing about movement is that when we are moving we are getting you know this is very much in your realm right we don't have stagnation right so   whenever we have good blood flow, that means we're moving oxygen, we're moving nutrients throughout our body. When we're sitting for long periods of time, we're essentially compressing our reproductive organs and creating stagnation, which is not great for kind of getting the things to go where they need to go. So those are the big ones on the macro level that I see, and I'll just briefly touch on the micro, which is that part of what was the impetus for me building the pre-pregnancy testing company that I now run, Poplin, is that   know, it was inspired by what I saw working as a nutritionist, that there's all these things that we can test in advance to understand what's going on for you uniquely. Right now in fertility we treat in many cases all 25 year olds as equal, all 35 year olds as equal, and that's cellularly just not true. So if we can understand what's going on in your unique body, then we can have a much better intervention plan rather than kind of doing all the things you can do, the specific things that are relevant to you and your physiology.   Michelle (14:24) Right. Yeah.   Oh my God. Yeah, for sure. And a lot of people are not really getting the tests, even if they are available mainstream. I'm always like surprised when people get there just the TSH and very high and nobody looks to see is it antibodies that's causing that. Like, there's no antibody testing. And I've even had patients go to their doctors and ask for it. And they're like, I don't know why you need it.   Alexandria DeVito (14:57) Mm-hmm.   Michelle (15:05) And I'm like, really? Like just, it boggles my mind. So it's again, a shame that people have to really search it and seek it, but if you are able to, I definitely highly suggest that. I think it's a game changer to be able to really see what's going on and to do the functional testing. Cause functional testing is a lot more detailed than what we'll see in just like a doctor's office or So I think it's huge.   Alexandria DeVito (15:32) I agree and I'm obviously hugely biased here so you know everyone has to take you know my opinion with a grain of salt but I've just seen you know because we're testing such a wide array of markers like I've never seen a test come back without something that you know someone could be working on and I've never had someone say you know I wish I didn't do that testing right   Michelle (15:50) Yeah.   Alexandria DeVito (15:50) it's really empowering. I think sometimes we can get scared and say, well, what if we find something out? And, you know, I don't want to know. But the things about the testing that we do, at least, is that everything on the test, except for blood type, is modifiable, which means you can do something about it. It's not some test result where you then are just, you know, sitting there, twiddling your thumbs, wondering, you know, what to do. You can modify it through diet, lifestyle, supplementation.   Michelle (16:05) Right.   Alexandria DeVito (16:19) Alternative therapies like the work that you do, right? Enhancing blood flow, managing stress levels, all of these things can really improve these biomarkers and you can see it in black and white, right? You can take the test, you can make lifestyle interventions and then you can take it again and you can watch your progress.   Michelle (16:19) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Not only that.   I feel like people feel a certain way or they feel sluggish and they think it's them or something's wrong with them. And when people get that confirmation, and this is kind of like, I mean, it's obviously related because everything's related to fertility. Because you were saying what you said was so true. And I say the same thing. It's your body's going to want to survive. And if it doesn't have the means, regardless of the fact that it's going to also influence reproductive health, but it also influences your quality of life.   Alexandria DeVito (16:44) Hmm   Michelle (17:06) people actually see that and they realize, oh my God, this is what explains it. Because I think there's nothing more frustrating than getting that unexplained diagnosis. And when you actually see beneath the surface what's really happening and it gives you an explanation, I feel like that by itself is so empowering.   Alexandria DeVito (17:14) Very funny.   Michelle (17:26) And I agree a lot of times with functional medicine, yes, we can change diet, we can address what's going on. We can see the inflammation. And then let's talk about gut health, because I know that that's like a big thing. A lot of people hear about gut health. And at first, I think when people start the fertility journey, they think it's just, let's focus just on fertility. But then you don't realize, like, there are so many different factors that come into play.   Alexandria DeVito (17:36) Yeah.   Michelle (17:51) And there are different systems and all the systems come together to create the whole of you. And gut health is incredibly important, even in Chinese medicine, you know, the clean stomach or the center, really the center that makes the blood, supports your body's processes and energy. So I wanted to get your perspective on gut health and also to explain it to people who are first hearing about it. Like why does gut health   matter so much when it comes to fertility health.   Alexandria DeVito (18:22) And I want to hear more from your perspective too, because I think this is where it's so beautiful to hear that the different modalities and how they're looking at things differently. And in a lot of ways, there's just this underlying similarity between the philosophies too. So I think, you know, what you said is spot on, right? Fertility is an extension of our overall health.   A lot of times we treat fertility as this below the waist conversation, or we treat it as solely a function of your hormones. And it is those things. It does involve your reproductive organs, and it does involve your hormones. But if we're just looking at those things, we're just kind of like looking through, you know, at-   20-30% of the equation, we're missing all of the other stuff going on in your body. And that's why when we look at testing, we're looking at your blood status, your hormone status, your metabolic status, your nutrient status, your immune status, all of these things affect your fertility. And you're talking about gut health, incredibly important.   thing. When we think about gut health, just to give a few examples with my nutritionist hat on, just because you're eating, let's say, a quote unquote healthy diet does not mean you are digesting and assimilating those nutrients. So if we're eating in a stressed state, if we're eating while we're standing up, if we are judging the food that we are eating, all of these things actually decrease the amount of nutrition that we can extract from that meal. So that's just   Michelle (19:30) Right.   Alexandria DeVito (19:46) first really important principle.   The second one is if you have happened to have been on hormonal birth control for any period of time, the literature is fairly clear that hormonal birth control can disrupt our microbiome. And so if we're not taking compensatory action to address that, then you're likely to be dealing with a disrupted microbiome. And then again, right, that may feed certain cravings. It may mean you're not, again, extracting nutrients as effectively from the foods that   eating. It may mean that you're dealing with symptomology like bloating and gas and discomfort after meals that are certainly...   not very pleasant right? And so you have kind of all of these different components when we think about gut health and if you just think about it from like a nutrient perspective, our gut is the way that our body helps us digest and assimilate. So if we're eating all these foods and we're not actually getting the benefit of the foods that we're eating, we're more likely to be in a nutrient deficient state. And nutrient deficiencies can delay time to pregnancy and they can also affect   And so what we're kind of consuming in the three to four months prior to conceiving is what you actually have to offer to that baby in that first trimester. So ensuring that your nutrient stores are replete before that period of time is incredibly important.   Michelle (21:12) Oh yeah, absolutely. Chinese medicine, It actually is what extracts into blood and blood is really important for women, uterine lining, but it also feeds the ovaries. So yeah, and it's amazing how now we're starting to find out a lot of things with research. And I love that. And it's also interesting because people do go on the birth   not only impacts the gut microbiome, but also impacts your nutrients in your body, depletes certain nutrients. So for people who have been on the birth control pill for many years, I think that that's one of the things in mainstream they'll say, oh, you could be on the birth control pill for many years. And then the second you stop, you could just go ahead and get pregnant. So what   has been your experience for people who have been on birth control pill and some people for over 10 years. And what are some of the things that you would look at and want to address to regulate and prepare people for conception? Yeah.   Alexandria DeVito (22:16) Such a great question. So I mean, I think there's the talking about birth control can be such a.   an important and also sensitive topic because I think it's, you know, I have such reverence for the freedoms that it has afforded myself for many years and also many, many women to pursue their lives as they deem fit, pursue their careers. And at the same time, I think we now have a generation of women who have been on hormonal birth control, as you said, from very early reproductive years, and we now have more information about the side effects.   you know, I'm a big believer in this concept of informed consent, which means you get to decide what is best for you, and the only way you can decide what is best for you is if you're given all of the information to evaluate the pros and cons of this. And for, you know, many women, even understanding some of the things that we're about to talk about, they still may make the same decision, but that is not the point of informed consent. The point of informed consent is that you get to know all of this information and then decide what is best for you. And so what I think   about hormonal birth control. Certainly what was not communicated to me is that, as you said, there are very well established nutrient depletions. And we've known this, you know, for almost 50 years now, by the way. So like the nutrient depletion side of this has been very clear. So nutrient depletions in many B vitamins, vitamin C, vitamin E, and then also in certain of the minerals, so like magnesium, selenium, and zinc.   And so what I would say there is you have a couple options, but number one is supplementing alongside hormonal birth control if you're still on hormonal birth control and are thinking about getting pregnant, not imminently, but in the future. And also if you go off of birth control, making sure that you're repleting those nutrients, because those are nutrients that are incredibly important for fertility and pregnancy.   Michelle (23:58) Right.   Alexandria DeVito (24:11) So I would say that as one piece, right? Certainly around the microbiome, we talked about that. And so giving your gut additional support might be helpful, right? Eating.   probiotic foods, eating prebiotic foods, sometimes adding additional supplementation may be necessary. And you can understand if you're experiencing any sort of digestive upset, that may suggest that there's something going on with your gut. So a lot of yeast infections can sometimes indicate, okay, there's an imbalance in what's going on in your gut.   Michelle (24:41) Mm-hmm.   Alexandria DeVito (24:45) If you're having immune challenges, a lot of times that can actually be linked to what's going on in your gut. Issues with digestion or motility, a lot of people don't even realize that the daily bowel movements are normal, and so if you're not having daily bowel movements, that actually means you're constipated, and so many people are walking around constipated and not even realizing it. So all of these things can be manifestations of, you know, A, our lifestyle, and then also can be a function of long-term   hormonal birth control use. So just understanding that. And what I generally say is that coming off of hormonal birth control, if you've been on it for many years, is an active rather than a passive process. So if you are just aware of some of these side effects of being on hormonal birth control, you can be a much more empowered user to take compensatory actions to address them.   Michelle (25:36) That's such a good point because I think in many cases people don't really feel like they have an option, but they need to still learn about what they can do in order to empower themselves. It's definitely such a good point to bring up. I was going to ask you just kind of a side note, what are your thoughts? Because I'm reading a lot about it as of late, systemic enzymes, enzymes are really, really important, but I'm reading a lot about how   Alexandria DeVito (26:04) Hmm.   Michelle (26:06) amazing it is for the body, for inflammation.   Alexandria DeVito (26:11) bit about them too. I haven't done the requisite deep dive that I would need to give a really thorough opinion here. It does seem to be showing some promise and you know I think there are some potentially interesting applications out there, but you'll have to stay tuned on that one because I need to research them a little bit more before I get into thinking about kind of what are the best suggestions for folks and kind of what are the specific instances that I think they can be.   Michelle (26:27) Yeah.   Alexandria DeVito (26:37) used in? What do you think is the most intriguing application so far?   Michelle (26:41) It's incredible. So for example, wobe enzyme, which as of late, it's been out of stock for so many, but there are a lot of different places that do offer systemic enzymes. And basically what they do is they really break apart fibrin and you know, even plaque in our circulation system and our veins and arteries. And   it could really help lower inflammation. There's been a lot of research on specifically whoope enzyme and they've even researched it for recurrent miscarriages which I find really interesting. it can also help in certain cases of autoimmune conditions has been shown to help with Hashimoto's. There's so many things that I'm reading about it and I'm really fascinated. So I'm starting to dig in a little bit more.   and finding it to be a really amazing thing. And I think what happens is as we get older, we decrease the amount of enzymes our bodies have and enzymes are so brilliant, your body's so brilliant. It knows what to basically clean out and it will never affect your tissues. So it's really fascinating stuff.   Alexandria DeVito (27:50) It is. The autoimmune conditions are the ones that I've seen some applications for. And it is really interesting to think about because certainly we're seeing autoimmune conditions on the rise and pretty precipitously. And autoimmune conditions are disproportionately present in the female population. So it's something that's important to be aware of. I think it's 80% of autoimmune diagnoses are in females. And on average, it takes about   immune diagnosis. So it's just, it's wild. It's wild to think about that. And a lot of times, autoimmune conditions can have non-specific symptoms, which is why sometimes it can be hard to address. We do autoimmune screening, testing it at Poplin, and one of the reasons that we do it is because there's been such a precipitous rise in autoimmune conditions, and we're seeing a lot of people flagging for indications of autoimmune conditions. And it's not a diagnosis. You have   Michelle (28:21) Isn't that crazy? Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Alexandria DeVito (28:50) diagnostic testing to get an autoimmune diagnosis, but it's a first step to say, okay, might there be some autoimmune processes going on? And a lot of times that will initiate people into conversations around family history that they, you know, weren't aware of but that they then become aware of around autoimmune conditions. And, you know, there are certainly plenty of things once you know that you're dealing with it that you can start to do to manage it in collaboration with your doctor.   Michelle (28:51) Mm-hmm.   Alexandria DeVito (29:16) So I think that's an area that's certainly right for a lot more research. And I'm excited to see that there are potential other alternative therapies as well.   Michelle (29:23) Yeah, it's pretty fascinating and really looping back to the gut health, there's such a connection with gut health and autoimmune conditions. And right now we know that so many of the ingredients that we find in processed foods impact our gut health. I mean, some of the medications we take. So it's kind of like you were saying earlier, even just environmental.   Alexandria DeVito (29:28) Yes.   Michelle (29:45) It impacts our gut. it's not something that we can avoid, which makes sense to why so many people are experiencing that. You also have to be proactive in, like you said, like the environment. We're not living in a very fertile friendly environment. So you have to be proactive in looking into it and researching it and then figuring out what's going on with your specific body and then what you can do about it.   Alexandria DeVito (30:10) Absolutely, I think it's true. You know, I wish it weren't the case. I wish we had, you know, better regulations in this in this area. And I wish that we could play in a safer sandbox, I guess, is the is the way I would say it, you know, but you know, unfortunately, until regulations catch up, or, you know, until we are in a place where these, these chemicals aren't around us in such a profound way, we have to take a lot more personal responsibility. And so, you know,   Michelle (30:22) Yeah.   Alexandria DeVito (30:38) it can sometimes feel overwhelming because there's a lot to learn around, you know, trying to understand, okay, well, what are the things that I want to be keeping in and around me? What are the things that I don't want to be keeping in and around me? And I just, you know, generally encourage people to be gentle with themselves as they maybe go kind of room by room, starting to look at the different things that are coming in, identifying potentially major sources or things that you're using frequently to start to minimize all these assaults that we have on our system, right? Because our body   as I was saying earlier, and it was designed to regenerate and heal. And so it's really our job to figure out kind of what are the fertility blockers in our environment, right? And to remove those, because once you remove those, the body heals itself, right? It's miraculous. And so it's, you know, systematically finding, okay, where are these things in and around my environment that are not so consistent with my goals right now?   Michelle (31:21) Mm-hmm. It does.   It's so funny. I feel like we're like mentally related because a lot of things that you're saying are things that I felt for forever. I mean, I really like relate and I say it over and over again, because it is really true. It's just that hope that knowing that your body's incredible. It's so intelligent. It's beyond intelligent. And it's just a matter of really finding things and anything's possible. Truly, if you put your mind to it.   And for just for people to hear about, I would love, and I would love to know also, what does poplin offer? Like what are some of the things that people can get tested?   Alexandria DeVito (32:13) Mmm.   So Poplin's designed a pre-pregnancy test for females and for males, and the idea is that we look at a vast array of biomarkers that are like 70 plus. So the idea is essentially that we're looking across five different categories of health. So I mentioned them earlier, blood status, your hormone status, your immune status, metabolic status, and nutrient status. And within each of those categories, I'll just talk briefly about some of the most common things that we see, but the idea is to identify things that could be red flags or yellow flags,   with your ability to get pregnant or sustain a healthy pregnancy and have a healthy baby. So in blood status, this is where we're looking at the health of your blood cells, red blood cells, white blood cells. And so a lot of times there, we'll also look at iron storage, so your ferritin levels. And in your world, I'm guessing you see this manifested in a slightly different way, but we see a ton of iron deficiency. And a lot of times people are just coming in and   Michelle (33:09) Mm-hmm.   Alexandria DeVito (33:14) requisite iron is going to be really hard to, you know, to get pregnant and to sustain a pregnancy. It's a really important nutrient. So that's one that we see really commonly when we think about hormone status. That's the category that most people think about when they think about fertility. We're looking at a lot of different hormones there. As you, as you mentioned earlier, we look at TSH. We also look at seven other.   thyroid function markers, right? So we are looking at thyroid antibodies, but then we're also wanting to look at what else is going on with your conversion of thyroid hormone, and sometimes your TSH is not as sensitive of a marker as some of the others, and so it will change later in the disease process, and so using markers that are a bit more sensitive to catch things earlier is important.   Michelle (33:37) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Alexandria DeVito (33:59) When I think about metabolic function, we look at blood sugar in that category. We also look at cholesterol. So a lot of times blood sugar function can interfere with regular ovulation. So we wanna understand what might be going on there that could interrupt.   ovulation or even egg quality. I know this is something that you've covered before, right? Our blood sugar is intimately related to certainly our hormone function, but also egg quality and sperm quality. And then nutrients we've talked a lot about, but I'm still consistently seeing low vitamin D, low omega-3s. So these are things that are fairly easily addressable if you know that they're present. And so those are ones that we are seeing commonly. And our, you know,   Michelle (34:33) Mm-hmm.   Alexandria DeVito (34:44) choose to address that, in some cases through diet and in some cases through additional supplementation.   Michelle (34:51) And are people able to just go on and do it for themselves or do they need a provider to access the tests?   Alexandria DeVito (34:58) people can access it directly themselves. That's exactly what we're designed for. I think what I realized when I was working as a nutritionist and I was trying to get some of these tests like have other providers run the testing was that a lot of providers wouldn't run the testing. They wouldn't run as comprehensive of a panel as I thought was necessary. And it's really not their fault. It's because in most cases, insurance is driving care. Care is not driving what is reimbursed through insurance. And so providers are stuck even if they wanted to run it,   they don't have the codes to be able to do it. So it is, you know, offered out of pocket. You can use HSA or FSA dollars for it. But the idea is that you know exactly what you're getting, you know exactly what you're paying, and then you can have this information. And most of the time, even though most doctors will not necessarily run the tests up front, once you get the results, you can bring those tests to your doctor and they...   will engage with you and can help you address what might be going on, whether or not that's chronic disease management, medication, or further conversations about the patterns that are being seen. And with the purchase of your test, you also get a call with one of our pre-pregnancy educators, so you can talk about next steps as well to make sure that you're equipped for what would be most helpful.   Michelle (36:14) Okay, so that you'll have somebody to explain to you really what the test means.   Alexandria DeVito (36:19) Yes, and it's also explained in our app as well. So for each item, it says kind of what is this and what is the implication on fertility as well. So the idea is to just give you some context for what you're looking at, and then you could also speak with someone to ask additional questions about if there's anything that's still confusing.   Michelle (36:41) Awesome. I mean, I think that's great. I think it's great for people to be able to do it for themselves if they don't, if they're not working with somebody and, have that accessible for so many people because going through this could be so daunting and then just not really understanding. And then just getting, you know, doors closed, like, no, you can't continue looking into this, or it's just unexplained. So like, what else is going on?   Alexandria DeVito (37:06) That's so well said. I mean, I think I'm consistently surprised at how dismissive sometimes people can be about getting information about your own body. And I really do believe, like, don't let any, if you desire information about your body, don't let anyone tell you that you don't have a right to that. I think that is, you know, just not true.   And so everyone has a different relationship with data. For some people, they feel it is empowering. Most people, I find, feel it is empowering to understand what is going on for yourself. And if that's you, if you feel like you want to understand, okay, what is my baseline? What is my pre-pregnancy wellness? What am I working with? Then I'd invite you to look into that because I think it's so much more impactful to have that information and then have paths to follow than be dealing with this kind of black box, right?   Michelle (37:46) Mm-hmm.   Alexandria DeVito (37:59) to be a black box, though we often treat it as such. There's so many indicators that our body is giving us through our menstrual cycles, through our symptoms, and then through, you know, physiologic testing like blood testing and urine testing. There's so much information that our body is giving us about what's going on that we can use to understand earlier indicators of fertility than just getting pregnant.   Michelle (38:21) Absolutely. So for people who want to find out more about you, and do you work with people one on one still what do you offer?   Alexandria DeVito (38:32) Yeah, absolutely. So if people are interested in the book, that's...   at 9mon the number nine, and that has all the information about kind of how to prepare to get pregnant and many of the factors that I talked about. I also talk about testing in the book as well. If people are excited about getting tested and are interested in getting tested, that's through Poplin, and the website for that is getpoplin.com, G-E-T-P-O-P-L-I-N. I'm not working with clients one-on-one anymore. It's only through Poplin these days, so if that's something that you're interested in,   encourage you to come join us. We have an incredible set of pre-pregnancy educators as well who are deeply passionate about the space just like you and I are, Michelle. And so if you want to get a little bit more insight into what's going on with your body or your reproductive partner's body, that's what we're here for.   Michelle (39:24) Awesome. Well, Alexandria, I feel like we're on such similar pages on our approach to fertility And I love the fact that you're all about empowerment and education and getting people to really understand.   that their body is incredible and so intelligent and so powerful and that you can actually do something about it. So I had such a great conversation with you today and thank you so much for coming on.   Alexandria DeVito (39:52) Thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure. And please keep doing what you're doing. It's absolutely incredible spreading the word and serving in this space. It's beautiful.  

Paul F. Austin is one of the most prominent voices in the world of psychedelics. As the founder of Third Wave, he has educated millions on the importance of safe and effective psychedelic experiences. A pioneer at the intersection of psychedelics, personal transformation, and professional success, his work has been featured in Forbes, Rolling Stone, and the BBC's Worklife.   Paul helps leaders, creatives, and pioneers leverage psychedelics for exponential personal growth and professional development. He views psychedelics as a skill refined through mentorship, courageous exploration, and intentional use. According to Paul, learning how to master this skill will be crucial in the story of humanity's present-future evolution.   Note: Psychedelics are not legal in most U.S. states so it's important to take this episode as educational and not medical or suggestive advice. This is a potent controlled substance and this episode is not intended to recommend or suggest that anyone take it.    Website & Social media links (Facebook, instagram, twitter)   Social Media Paul F. Austin: - IG: https://www.instagram.com/paulaustin3w/ - X: https://twitter.com/PaulAustin3w?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor - LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-f-austin/   Social Media Third Wave - YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCATHWJYqouqzF3-5GMIaOuQ - FB: https://www.facebook.com/thirdwaveishere - X: https://twitter.com/thirdwaveishere - IG: http://www.instagram.com/thirdwaveishere - LI: http://www.linkedin.com/company/third-wave-psychedelics/   In this conversation, Paul Austin discusses his personal journey with psychedelics and how they have impacted his life. He explains the potential therapeutic benefits of microdosing psychedelics, such as psilocybin and ketamine, and how they can help with mental health issues and even fertility. Paul emphasizes the importance of finding a qualified practitioner and following a safe and responsible approach when using psychedelics. He also shares resources, such as his podcast and coaching program, for those who want to learn more.   Takeaways Psychedelics, when used responsibly, may have therapeutic benefits for the mind. Psychedelics can promote neuroplasticity and reduce inflammation in the brain, leading to positive changes in mental health. Finding a qualified practitioner and following a safe approach is crucial when using psychedelics. Resources like podcasts, guides, and coaching programs are available for those interested in learning more about psychedelics.   Click here to find out how to get the first chapter of "The Way of Fertility" for free.   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast fall.   Paul Austin (00:01) Thank you for having me on, Michelle.   Michelle (00:03) I'd love for you to share your background, how you got into this work. And then we'll obviously dive in a little later.   Paul Austin (00:10) Well, the topic we're covering today is or has been a fairly taboo one. And the place that I grew up in was raised in that was, I would say particularly so. My family was pretty religious growing up. So we were in church every Sunday. This is, I grew up in Michigan in the Midwest and.   at the age of 16, I started to smoke a little cannabis and soon after that tried alcohol for the first time. And then a few years after that started to work with LSD and mushrooms. And early on in that journey, like pretty much right after I started smoking weed, my parents found out that I had been, you know, trying cannabis and they sat me down and   Uh, one Sunday after church and my dad looked at me and was like, you know, I haven't been this disappointed since my brother passed away in a car accident 35 years ago, something like that. So it clearly pained my parents. I mean, it clearly impacted them way more than it impacted me. There's this very negative. Mine was very positive. So it just became clear at that point in time that we were just, we were of different perspectives, which I accepted and was fine with. I was much more the rebel and you know, uh, the   person who was skeptical of groupthink and was always asking questions and sort of being a little bit of a menace. I was definitely a little bit of a menace growing up as a young kid. But that then matured into, oh, I would like to choose a path that's more unconventional that, you know, most people don't necessarily follow. So when I was 21, I moved to Turkey and I had been influenced by my early LSD and psychedelic use. I had had these experiences with...   either by myself or with a small group of friends in the woods, in nature, and always just felt very creative from that place and wanting to sort of paint my own picture or dream my own dream or create lifestyle design in a way that I felt was very intentional. And so I thought the first the first path coming out of university would be fun to travel. So I taught English in Turkey, and then I started a business in Thailand like an online   business, like a sort of early digital nomad remote work lifestyle. And I was traveling all over. I'd go to Vietnam. I'd go to, you know, I did road trips all across Europe. I went to the Amazon for a conference in Ayahuasca at one point. So very nomadic traveling all over. And soon after that phase started, I moved to Budapest and I worked with LSD again and had a very profound experience. And this was 2015. And at that point in time, I was   noticing more people were talking about psychedelics. There are more conversations happening around them, more research being published. So I started Third Wave as an educational platform resource for like cultural or legalization of psychedelics. And the story kind of like this first chapter sort of concludes when in 2018, Michael Pollan's book came out, How to Change Your Mind. I gave it to my dad to read and he read it.   And soon after he started to microdose and then soon after that, I guided him through a high dose psilocybin journey. So, you know, this is almost 13, 14 years after that initial conversation we had, their minds had been changed quite a bit. And now my parents are, you know, fully supportive and behind what I do professionally and all those sorts of things. So what I've sort of learned over the last 10 years being professionally involved in this work is.   you know, if we have our own experiences with them, we speak from that place, you know, we, it's, it's good not to sort of willfully push it onto others, but providing education, providing context, providing answers to questions if they're interested. That's really what I strive to do and support people in, in and on their path with psychedelics and microdoses.   Michelle (04:13) Yeah, I mean, I know this sounds almost like a random topic to be putting into fertility work. I like to kind of talk about everything. I think everything that could be medicinal for yourself on a psycho spiritual, level to me is welcome. And I'm interested because I see a lot of really emerging   data, information about how this can help people, like deeply in a different way than some of the pharmaceuticals, which if anything, kind of like push down what we're really feeling and like going into the root of what's happening in your body or your mind can impact your body and can also impact your mind and it can also impact how you perceive the world. And I had one of my patients, actually a couple of patients, um,   do this, microdose. And they've come to me and told me, one of them, I remember her having major anxiety and I was helping her prepare for IVF. She had many failed rounds and was going through this for many years and young woman, you know, too. So she was young and she's like, I don't understand why we can't start a family. And I felt her anxiety, like literally can feel her anxiety every time she used to come in. And I would talk to her about meditation and different things. And then,   One day she came in and I felt like she was like a different person. And she told me that she started microdosing and that it really helped her tremendously come out of anxiety. And shortly thereafter, she ended up getting pregnant. She had a positive outcome. So I was like, okay, this is interesting. And I've talked to another patient of mine who had miscarried. And after many years of trying,   and finally got pregnant and miscarried and went through a lot of anxiety around it. And she told me, and for a while actually, I didn't hear from her. She needed a break. And it's so very often this happens with this field. You know, people go inwards and try to figure out or take breaks really from trying anything because it could be so emotionally exhausting. And she said the one thing that really helped her is she microdosed as well. And then I started watching, I love Gaia.   TV, I watch a lot of topics on there. And they were talking about microdosing and really the power of psychedelics and how it can impact the mind. And I'm just intrigued. And then your people reached out to me. I'm like, you know what, this is a really interesting topic and I really want to look into this. And you're right. It is kind of a taboo because it's considered a controlled substance, but it is a lot of people are starting to look into it for therapeutics because they're seeing that it   has an impact on almost rewiring the mind. And I find that really intriguing. So I really want to talk about like, how does this work? How does it work on the mind? Like, what's it? What's the impact like for microdosing, for example, psilocybin? Like, how does that work?   Paul Austin (07:16) Thank you.   So when we think about the mechanism of action of low doses of psychedelics, there's the protocols that we can follow, like do it twice a week or do it three times a week. The prescription sort of being minimum of one month up to three months and then take a two to three week break and cycle off of it. So that's very much the what of.   Microdosing. The how is where you get a little bit more into why this might be impacting fertility, why this may be impacting our body's sort of sense of homeostasis or, you know, a sense of vitality or full health. And that really looks at its impact on certain neurotransmitters like serotonin and dopamine. It has a positive impact on both.   So it helps with focus, attention, motivation. It also helps people to feel better, to feel good. And that mechanism of action also plays out in its impact on neuroplasticity and the production of BDN -Apran -Gerab neurotrophic factor, which is a precursor to neuroplasticity. So what we know about microdosing is that when it's done in a consistent rhythm,   Ideally combined with some form of practice like meditation or yoga or just more mindfulness around what we eat. So some sort of intention is weaving through it. It can drive towards a number of beneficial outcomes depending on the context. So some people will say, oh, this really helped me to get off my SSRIs. This helped me to get off certain benzodiazepines. This helped me to get off.   ADHD medication, some people will be like, Oh, this really helped me to find my rhythm again in work and I was able to access flow or some people are like, Oh, this really helped me manage or heal my relationship or help me to heal fertility issues. So it depends on the context depends on the intention behind the overall experience. But the driving factor is is that impact on neuroplasticity.   Michelle (09:30) Mm -hmm.   Paul Austin (09:31) and what it does to the prefrontal cortex in terms of helping us to plan and think and change and shift. But it also has a really an impact on the amygdala, which is our field response center. So oftentimes people notice they become more courageous. They're more willing to sort of step outside their normal bounds of what's comfortable. And that sense of courage allows people to explore new territory, to try new things, which can often lead to beneficial outcomes.   Michelle (09:51) Mm -hmm.   Paul Austin (09:58) because so oftentimes we get stuck in ruts, we get stuck in default patterns, we get stuck in doing the same thing over and over again. And we often need a little push to break those habits and those cycles and learn to be, to sort of, I would say, regulate ourselves in the midst of uncertainty and chaos.   Michelle (10:17) Right. And then just to kind of be clear, it's not, you're not getting the courage, it's not like you're going to be more of a risk taker per se. It's just, it gives you more of that feeling where you're able to more.   Paul Austin (10:32) Yeah, it depends on the context, right? There are some people who certainly they go drink ayahuasca, they smoke five MEO, or they do these more higher therapeutic doses of psychedelics and they it impacts them in such a way that they make decisions that sometimes they later regret like this is part of the education around responsible psychedelic use is if you have a really big experience, give it time before you're making any major life decisions.   Michelle (10:49) Mm -hmm.   But with microdosing specifically, it's not. Yeah, yeah.   Paul Austin (10:58) with microdosing not so much, right? And so that's sort of the upside or benefit, especially to someone who's fairly new to this is it's almost like contained risk taking, you know, not unhealthy risk taking or not impulsive behavior that could be detrimental or maladaptive, right? We're really looking at just a slight uptick in, oh, I'd like to try a new thing. Like I think it would be helpful to do something that's slightly uncomfortable. Like,   Cold plunging would be a really good example. Cold plunging is very uncomfortable. But we know that it's very beneficial and very safe. And so that's really for a lot of people would be a risk, but it's a very healthy potential beneficial risk.   Michelle (11:28) Mm.   Yeah.   Right.   And neuroplasticity, people are hearing that for the first time, it basically means that you can rewire your brain and kind of make changes. Is it beneficial in the sense that it almost allows you to change habits more easily than without it?   Paul Austin (11:56) So there's been some interesting research on octopus with MDMA. So octopi are normally very independent. They're not really all that social. And there was a researcher at Johns Hopkins who gave them MDMA. And noticed that for this critical learning period of time, they were more pro -social, they played together, they were in that way. And that taught them these new patterns and new behaviors that they continued to exhibit after the MDMA totally passed through their system two weeks, three weeks later.   And so the sort of, that's probably one of the most interesting elements. Cal Berkeley, UC Berkeley is now carrying out further research on that. They just received a $6 million grant from the Bob and Renee Parsons Foundation. Bob was the founder of GoDaddy and is now supporting psychedelic research. And so they're studying what is that critical learning period after we do a high therapeutic dose. And what it looks like is it's two to three weeks.   where there's this open window of change in your brain where it just becomes easier to try new things, to weave in new patterns and weave in new behaviors, to develop what's called cortical plasticity, to develop more gray matter in the brain. All of this helps our brain become younger, communicate better, helps us to have more energy.   And it's also related to just overall inflammation, which it could be the tie into fertility as well. When we're looking at overall, you know, holistic health metrics to track and understand it's inflammation. And psychedelics are shown to have a beneficial and positive outcome and impact on lowering inflammation. And because, and that's also, it's also why it has an impact on neuroplasticity. Because when we lower inflammation in the gut, we lower it in the brain.   Michelle (13:22) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Paul Austin (13:41) when there's less inflammation in the brain, the brain becomes younger, it becomes healthier, it becomes more like a sponge, if you will. And so that impact on inflammation, I think is responsible for a lot of the, there are people who heal shingles with microdosing. There are people who have gotten through Lyme disease with low doses of psychedelics. There are people who found beneficial outcomes for cluster headaches, which are one of the most, like,   Michelle (14:04) Mm -hmm.   Paul Austin (14:09) just awful feelings in the world and then fertility as well. So when I look at that overall holistic impact, I'm really wanting to understand its impact in inflammatory markers in particular, and if by significantly reducing those, it helps to create more space for things like babies.   Michelle (14:28) So MDMA is that what is in psilocybin, like mushrooms?   Paul Austin (14:35) MDMA is also known as ecstasy psilocybin is what's in mushrooms. So psilocybin is also produced synthetically That is a tryptamine. It's a certain typical classic psychedelic MDMA is what's called allophenethylamine and it has a methamphetamine component It's more stimulating which can really help with PTSD in particular. So MDMA will be approved by the FDA most likely this year   Michelle (14:40) Uh huh.   Mm -hmm.   Paul Austin (15:00) to treat PTSD. So by the end of this year, there will be medically available MDMA for people who have PTSD. Psilocybin will be a few years on, but it's currently legal in Colorado and Oregon and potentially soon in California and other states.   Michelle (15:16) So if somebody was to, were to want to do this therapeutically, are you able to do this therapeutically, psilocybin other than those states?   Paul Austin (15:27) Well, yes and no, right? Like there are, there are plenty of people who work with psilocybin in underground circles. There are a lot of people who grow their own mushrooms. We have a little cute grow kit on third wave where we make it really easy for you to grow your own mushrooms. There are a lot of people who fly and travel to Oregon or they fly and travel to Colorado. I also had a previous project many years ago where I set up a legal center in the Netherlands.   We'd have people fly over there, a lot of Americans fly over to the Netherlands to do a high dose retreat experience. But all of the policy is really focused on these high dose therapeutic experiences. There isn't a lot that's done specific to micro dosing. So one project that I've been focused on building has been something called the micro dosing collective, which is a 501c3 nonprofit to pass policy.   related to adult use of psilocybin so people can have access to microdosing and can do it at home legally. Right now, most of this is illegal. But it's...   Michelle (16:36) Yeah. So obviously I don't want to like be telling people to do anything illegal, especially here on the podcast. Like I don't want to, you know, that's not the message here, but I do want people, if they're interested to know what avenues they could do that was, legal.   Paul Austin (16:53) which are basically these retreat options, I mean, in Oregon and Colorado. We also on third wave, we have directory of clinics, ketamine clinics. Ketamine is legal and used widely for various issues and conditions. It's very safe, it's very effective. It's been approved by the FDA for treatment resistant depression, but generic ketamine is also widely available. So folks wanna stay on the right side of the law. So to say, ketamine clinics are great.   Michelle (17:02) Mm -hmm.   Paul Austin (17:21) a lot of retreat centers in Oregon and Colorado that are starting to open as well as Costa Rica, other places in South America, the Netherlands, even Canada. So there are more and more options that are coming online. And again, by the end of this year, MDMA will be medically available. My expectation is that within five to six years, we'll see widespread accessibility through various channels of psychedelics and plant medicines. And...   Even now, if you kind of know how to look or where to look and Third Wave is a great resource for that, you can do things that are totally legal and very effective currently. There are lots of options for that.   Michelle (17:56) Let's talk about ketamine because I actually have heard, I remember going to a conference and they talked about ketamine and the benefits that... What I like about it, I mean, obviously this isn't my specialty at all. I don't really know about my medicine in general. It's not my specialty, but I know that a lot of my patients coming in,   they were taking antidepressants, like a lot of things that I hear is it's very hard to get off of it. Sometimes people would say they almost feel like a numbness in their emotion. It sounds like what's being given mainstream is not the best option, like for long -term, and it's not a real solution. It's more just let's get through this. And I'm not saying to get off anything. If you are on it, obviously listen to whatever   Your doctors are telling you, you know, whoever you're choosing to work with, it just doesn't seem to me from listening to what my patients are telling me that it is something that is long -term or root, you know, like a root cause perspective. Whereas what I'm understanding from ketamine and even microdosing just based on what I've heard is that it gets into the root.   of what's happening gets you really to the root to clear out what it is that's causing the depression or any kind of anxiety. So I've heard a lot of great things about ketamine that it works, it sustains itself. If you do it, it actually has a lasting effect and changes and rewires the brain, which is what got my attention. Because it's much better if you don't have to   something for the rest of your life. Or that if you get off of it, you're going to have all kinds of symptoms. So it's so much better to know that there's something out there that could possibly really make a lasting healing effect on the mind. So talk to us about ketamine. And obviously that is legal. And it's something that it's a great option, it seems like for a lot of people, like who should look into it or consider it and who should not.   Paul Austin (20:11) The academies are great.   Michelle (20:12) So it's three questions.   Paul Austin (20:14) Yeah, I'll do my best. If I don't cover anything, we can circle back. But ketamine's a, it's a class, it's a disassociative. It's been used since like the 1950s as an anesthetic in emergency rooms. It's one of the most widely used drugs in the world. It's incredibly safe at even very high doses for sedation, especially of young kids in the ER. And they found out, I don't know, maybe 20, 25 years ago that it had antidepressant effects.   Michelle (20:17) I'll remind you.   Paul Austin (20:41) And so it's fantastic for suicidality. It immediately interrupts those thought patterns. It's one of the best currently available treatments for suicidality. It's really helpful for depression. A lot of therapists are now using lower doses of ketamine within a therapeutic practice. So they'll do a two hour session instead of a one hour session and guide someone through a low dose of ketamine as part of that container. That's what we call a psycholytic approach. It's similar to microdosing or low dosing, but just slightly more.   And ketamine is legal everywhere. It's widely available. There are in -person clinics. There's also the opportunity to do ketamine at home. I've done both. I've gone into clinics and worked with ketamine and I've also done it at home. Both have upsides and downsides. The IV ketamine, which happens in a clinic is more intense and it's more of a sterile, a bit of more of a sterile environment.   Some clinics don't provide great support. Some clinics do. You want to work in a, go to a clinic that provides great therapeutic support as part of your treatment protocol. At home, you have a friend or a family member who's sitting for you and virtual coaching, but the ketamine is simply sent to your home. You do it in the safety of your own home. A lot of people enjoy that. And as long as they get the dosage correct, you know,   adverse outcomes are minimal. They happen, but they're very minimal with ketamine. And I think it could be a really great bridge or sort of transition point for, especially if people are on SOS or on antidepressants, it may be a new useful modality that could be helpful and effective. This isn't necessarily the case for everyone, but maybe 60 to 70 % of people find that ketamine works for them and is effective. And, you know, I think it's...   It's for me at least and for a lot of people I would say there's something deeper in mushrooms and ayahuasca and these classic psychedelics that ketamine doesn't offer as much. Ketamine is good to do every now and then. I love to do it in combination with body work or massage because it has an anesthetic effect so I can work with practitioners that can get deep into tissue and fascia which can be very, very helpful for just creating more space in the body.   So I have very intentional use cases for it in specific contexts, but by and large, I try not to use it much because it is a disassociative, it can be addictive. If you do it consistently for a period of time, it can cause bladder issues. And so it's good to have sort of a every now and then approach to working with ketamine after maybe an initial treatment protocol. The initial treatment protocol typically calls for six to eight to 10 treatments within the first two to three.   Michelle (23:03) Mm -hmm.   Paul Austin (23:22) to four months, right? Pretty concentrated and focused initial treatment.   Michelle (23:25) Yeah, and also, I mean, a lot of this obviously is medicinal and like any medicine, you should really be aware of like what you should do or not do. I definitely highly suggest talking to somebody qualified and obviously doing it through the   But what do you suggest if somebody's   Because it is something that like can be potentially, depending on like any trauma that you have in the past, it can potentially put you at a place of extreme vulnerability as well. What are some things that people should be aware of if they're looking into this?   Paul Austin (24:03) You wanna find a great provider or a great practitioner, someone you can trust, someone that has an ethical practice, has integrity, is compassionate, is experienced ideally. And you wanna really interview the person who you're intending to sit with or the provider or the clinic or the retreat that you're planning to go to. You wanna know these people. So I typically tell people to focus on five aspects.   There should be an assessment process. They should do an intake on your personal background and history. You know, if you're on any medications, if you do have a history of certain, you know, trauma or alcohol, whatever it is, right? All of that is important to know and for you to communicate to them in an initial intake. Then they can assess whether they can support you or whether they need to refer you out to someone who can.   support you. So that's also an important element of working with the practitioners, you want to make sure you're in good care, you want to make sure you're in the hands of someone who you know can take care of you and facilitate and guide you through a safe and effective experience. So asking, kind of getting making sure there's an intake form, asking them what they do for preparation, do they offer preparation support, what type of preparation support.   What's the experience like? How much medicine? What medicine are we taking? How long does it last? Right? And what might be some of the different elements of it? And then what do they do for integration? So going back to that critical learning period that we talked about, how do they support the integration process? Do they offer support after a, you know, working with a psychedelic experience? And then what, what do they know about microdosing? That would be the fifth one. Can, can they help coach you through or support you?   Michelle (25:40) it. I mean, this is definitely a fascinating topic, I will say. And I do think that it's, it has a huge place in the future of mind, body of medicine.   I just think that there's just so much potential here, which is why I really wanted to have you on. Like it was just definitely something that I was like, okay, this is going to be a really interesting conversation. That being said, I don't think that it's for everybody. And I definitely think that people need to like look into it, but it's,   educational. It's really important that people listen and hear that there is a potential for this. And I do think that it could be a huge asset to mind medicine and hoping that, obviously, it could be done in a way that can really benefit with qualified practitioners or people that really know what they're doing, because it is potent. That's why I say it's not for everybody. It is a very potent medicine. It's not something that should just be...   taken without thought. So yeah, if people want to learn more, what kind of resources do you offer and how can people find you?   Paul Austin (26:47) Yeah, so if this, if this made anyone curious, so they want to dive in, learn more, we have, I've hosted my own podcast for years now. We have over 250 episodes. Uh, so you can jump into the podcast. You could, we have a bunch of guides on our homepage of the different substances. You can dive into those with a lot of the research and context on them. We have the directory that I mentioned. So all of that's available. And then if there are any people who want to take the next step, who want to go deeper.   We offer coaching support as well through a one -to -one coaching program called personalized psychedelic coaching. So reach out to us, let us know how we could support. This was a fun, quick hit, quick dive into psychedelics and microdosing. And if anyone wants to reach out to me individually, I'm on Instagram and Twitter quite a bit, PaulAustin3W, so find me there.   Michelle (27:39) I'll have all the links shared in the episode notes if anybody wants to check it out. And Paul, this is a really interesting conversation. I really appreciate you coming on and elaborating and explaining more about the therapeutics of psychedelics.   Paul Austin (27:53) Thank you, Michelle. This was a ton of fun.  

Lily Nichols is a Registered Dietitian/Nutritionist, Certified Diabetes Educator, researcher, and author with a passion for evidence-based prenatal nutrition. Drawing from the current scientific literature and the wisdom of traditional cultures, her work is known for being research-focused, thorough, and sensible. Her bestselling book, Real Food for Gestational Diabetes (and online course of the same name), presents a revolutionary nutrient-dense, lower carb approach for managing gestational diabetes. Her work has not only helped tens of thousands of women manage their gestational diabetes (most without the need for blood sugar-lowering medication), but has also influenced nutrition policies internationally. Lily's clinical expertise and extensive background in prenatal nutrition have made her a highly sought after consultant and speaker in the field.  Lily's second book, Real Food for Pregnancy, is an evidence-based look at the gap between conventional prenatal nutrition guidelines and what's optimal for mother and baby. With over 930 citations, this is the most comprehensive text on prenatal nutrition to date. Lily is also creator of the popular blog, www.LilyNicholsRDN.com, which explores a variety of topics related to real food, mindful eating, and pregnancy nutrition.    Website & Social media links (Facebook, instagram, twitter)   https://lilynicholsrdn.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lilynicholsrdn/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PilatesNutritionist Twitter: https://twitter.com/LilyNicholsRDN Book: https://realfoodforfertility.com/   Takeaways Optimizing health prior to conception is crucial for a healthy pregnancy. Balancing macronutrients, such as carbohydrates and protein, is important for fertility. Including organ meats, like liver, in the diet can provide essential nutrients for fertility. Concerns about toxins in liver are unfounded, as the liver does not store toxins. Vitamin A toxicity is rare and usually associated with synthetic supplements, not whole food sources like liver. Click here to find out how to get the first chapter of "The Way of Fertility" for free.   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/   Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Lily.   Lily (00:01) Thanks for having me.   Michelle (00:02) I'm definitely excited to talk to you a lot about your book that just came out, which by the way, congratulations, it looks like it's doing phenomenal as I knew it would. it just has so many great tips and information and research.   So, before we get started, I'd love for you to introduce yourself, your background, how you got into this work, and also what inspired you to write the book with Lisa.   Lily (00:24) Yeah, sure. So first of all, thank you for the kind words in the book. We're very excited that it's been welcomed with open arms. My work, my professional background is as a registered dietitian nutritionist and also a diabetes educator. And I've really spent the majority of my career working in the women's health space, spanning the whole childbearing years from preconception through pregnancy, postpartum recovery, breastfeeding.   Also focusing on certain pregnancy complications, especially gestational diabetes. So that's really what I found working in many different areas in the prenatal space from clinical practice to public policy to training other practitioners to not just like conventional clinical practice, but my own private practice is that.   There's often a significant difference between what actually works well for helping to maintain optimal health and healthy pregnancies versus what the guidelines recommend that we do. And so a lot of the whole reason I even started writing books was that it became kind of frustrating to me hearing from clients who, or from other practitioners who were kind of dutifully following the guidelines and their clients were not getting.   Michelle (01:16) Mm-hmm.   Lily (01:36) good results. And I happen to love reading research and writing about it and having kind of worked through some of these issues myself already in practice, I decided to take to writing about it to get it to a wider audience outside of just my own clinical practice. So yeah, we now have three books. I have Real Food for Gestational Diabetes, my first one, Real Food for Pregnancy and now Real Food for Fertility.   And the whole reason that I thought adding this third book to the lineup would be helpful and why Lisa and I decided to do it together is that the whole issue of trying to have a healthy pregnancy, avoid complications, optimize your baby's development and all that, while what you eat during pregnancy certainly does matter, otherwise I wouldn't have written about it and wouldn't advocate for it.   Technically, if we really want to optimize outcomes, you want to be looking in advance of the pregnancy. You want to have a healthy lead up to that pregnancy, because a lot of the very sensitive periods of babies' development are in those early weeks. Many of us are aware of the conversation around folate and preventing neural tube defects, for example, and how you want to optimize your intake preconception. I mean, public.   Public health only calls out one nutrient, but you can extend that same logic for a number of different nutrients. And if we can optimize health prior to conception, and ideally in both partners, not just mom, but also for dad, then we can optimize the chances of a healthy pregnancy. Part of why I really wanted Lisa on board for this project, I mean, we had been talking about doing this for years.   Michelle (03:01) Yeah.   Lily (03:13) was with her expertise in the menstrual cycle and hormonal health. I mean, she works with helping couples both conceive and also prevent pregnancy using fertility awareness. It's also an important part of the conversation to get your menstrual cycle in check, which reflects that your hormones are in check and your menstrual cycle is only in a good place when your nutrient status is in check. And if you wanna achieve pregnancy, you could be doing everything perfectly right, but if you're not getting the timing right.   Michelle (03:34) Mm-hmm.   Lily (03:40) for sex, you're not going to conceive if you're not, you know, doing this in your fertile window. If you're not in your fertile window, pregnancy isn't going to happen, right? So bringing in that conversation around hormones and the menstrual cycle, kind of using your cycle as a reflection of what might be going on health-wise, which can sort of steer you in the direction of areas that need some attention, and also building in the conversation around male health and sperm quality.   Michelle (03:41) Mm-hmm.   Bye.   Lily (04:05) That's really where Lisa shines. So I think we really, you know, brought our heads together to bring you the best of both worlds so we can optimize fertility, optimize your chances of conception, and then also pave the way for a healthier pregnancy ahead.   Michelle (04:18) Yeah, I mean, it is very important to definitely start early because obviously the quality that you'll get from the sperm and the egg is going to make a huge difference in the pregnancy. So it is something that like, I remember this is way back when I was getting, when I was trying, and people were talking to me about folic acid at the time, it was folic acid, not folate. That's kind of what they were talking about a lot.   And people were saying, you have to do this way before you even start, because obviously it's such an important part, that early section. And you can't just have your body ready with all the nutrients when you give it to the body right at that point. You have to do it ahead of time, because obviously your body needs to process and it has to translate. And I remember you talking about sperm and egg.   really like the food being similar for both. And I thought that was really cool because sometimes it seems kind of like this two separate thing, but it really is ultimately like us humans, our bodies need nutrients and those nutrients help reproductive health. And it's nice to know that, you know, it's nice to look at it that way, that it really is like the quality is impacted.   similarly for men and women with very similar foods. So I wanted, I mean, I know this is a long range, but if you could just talk about like the basics, the macros, that people should be focusing on when it comes to sperm and egg quality.   Lily (05:36) Sure. Yes, there is thankfully a lot of overlap between male and female health, although there are some differences as well. But the kind of take home point is that doing a lot of the same health practices has carry over benefits for both. You don't need to be cooking separate meals for your partner just because, yeah. So   Michelle (05:53) Yeah.   Lily (05:55) Some of the things that are really key for both male and female fertility are keeping your blood sugar in a healthy range. And so when it comes to carbohydrates, for example, finding a level of carbohydrates that your body can process without experiencing significant hyperglycemia, like high blood sugar after meals, is optimal. A lot of that comes down to the quality of carbohydrates   Michelle (06:16) Mm-hmm.   Lily (06:18) less processed whole food carbohydrates, you know, your fruits, your vegetables, even a little bit of whole grains or fermented grains like sourdough, beans, legumes, like those sorts of things have much, although they do impact blood sugar levels, they have a much lesser effect on blood sugar levels than if most of your carbohydrates are coming from sugar, white flour, all the refined grains and the processed foods.   In the U.S. we're in a situation where 58% of calories on the average American diet are coming from ultra processed foods. And those are usually foods that have a base of some type of refined sugar, like corn syrup, some type of a refined starch, like white flour, low quality, like vegetable oil, seed oils, and then all the other ingredients that you can't even pronounce.   that are in there to make this food-like substance actually appeal. And so if we just shift the balance over to whole foods, massive benefits, not just for blood sugar levels, but nutrient intake. Another key one is getting your protein in check. Protein does not raise your blood sugar levels unlike carbohydrates, and so having plenty of protein with every single time you're eating, having some form of protein.   whether it's a meal or a snack, can do a lot to help blunt the elevation in blood sugar that we experience naturally from carbohydrate foods. So especially starting your morning with a protein-rich breakfast for both male and female clients is hugely important to setting the stage for healthy blood sugar and insulin levels, healthy cortisol levels, healthy hormone balance for the rest of the day. And then...   Since most of our whole food protein sources naturally come with fat. So think like eggs come with the yolk, chicken has skin, steak has fat on it, right? Like nuts and seeds have fat. If we're not taking out the fat out of our whole protein rich foods obsessively, we kind of don't even have to like really worry all that much about the fat conversation. But if you leave the fat intact in the whole food,   Michelle (08:11) Yeah.   Lily (08:16) Those foods are going to be more satiating. They fill you up, they keep you fuller for longer. They help sustain healthier blood sugar levels, and they have a number of nutrients in them that are important for our health, especially our fat-soluble vitamins. Absolutely vital that you have enough of those for fertility.   Michelle (08:30) second.   Another thing that I do notice actually with a lot of my patients, and I've seen this more recently, it doesn't always happen, but people skipping breakfast. And I wanna talk about that because I know that there's been a lot of research on intermittent fasting and it was beneficial for men and it was researched really for men. It wasn't researched as much for women.   And I just, I also know and heard that like cortisol can rise from skipping breakfast and that can throw off hormones. And I wanted to get your take on that and why it's important really to eat breakfast and have protein rich foods, especially in good healthy fats.   Lily (09:04) Yeah.   Yeah, we do have a section on intermittent fasting in the book because we're asked about it all the time. So ultimately, yeah, most of the research on intermittent fasting has been done in men. There's been a little bit of work in women and in very specific instances, which I can talk about, it can be a tool that's beneficial. But for the most part, intermittent fasting for women raises some red flags.   Primary reason is that our menstrual cycle is very sensitive to disruptions in energy intake. And not just energy intake over the whole day, but like even periods of time within the day where your body senses what we'd refer to as low energy availability. So you're not eating for certain periods of time during the day, long spans of time during the day, particularly in those who are exercising a lot.   When your body senses that there's not fuel there, the response is a reduction in your hormone levels. And so we see in women who under eat, and we even have like controlled feeding trials on this where they can measure precisely the level of caloric deficit that results in menstrual cycle disturbances. If your calorie intake dips below about 25%, so you're eating a,   quarter less food than you, your body actually needs, you see hormonal changes. Um, and within a couple of months that typically results in an issue with the menstrual cycle. Um, oftentimes it starts with like a short luteal phase or premenstrual spotting or more PMS or something like that. Um, and then ends up with ultimately complete anovulation. You stop ovulating and eventually stop cycling altogether. Um, so.   you essentially set up a situation of hypothalamic amenorrhea. So if we're restricting our food intake too low, this is going to happen. When most people do intermittent fasting, they're doing it in a way where they skip a meal. Oftentimes it is breakfast. And what we know from the research on skipping breakfast is these people are not making up the caloric deficit at their other meals. So they still over the course of the day, end up eating less food.   you couple that with the sort of mindset that most people go into intermittent fasting with. Most people who are attempting intermittent fasting are doing it with the goal of weight loss. And so there's not really an approach of, oh, I'm just gonna eat all the same amount of food in a shorter eating window. It's like, oh no, I'm going to shorten my eating window and also eat less. So the trials that have shown   Michelle (11:27) Bye.   Lily (11:29) benefits for intermittent fasting for women. And these are very small studies by the way. So, you know, take it for what it is, but these are in women who have polycystic ovarian syndrome. They were overweight or obese. And so, you know, likely have some insulin resistance going on and may benefit their hormonal profile, may actually benefit from a little bit of weight loss. It can benefit from.   reducing levels of insulin resistance. The way they implemented intermittent fasting was they consumed all of their meals between 8 a.m. And 4 p.m. They didn't skip meals and they also didn't do it in a caloric deficit They simply ate their food at an early eating window in the day and in that trial they specifically had them continue to consume the same amount of calories. Now   Michelle (12:09) Mm-hmm.   Lily (12:16) This resulted in dramatic improvement in their PCOS. You saw improvement in their insulin, their blood sugar levels, their androgens, their just the whole hormonal profile also resulted in weight loss. But these are in women who can benefit from a little bit of weight loss. They're specifically not under eating and they're also not skipping breakfast. Breakfast is a time when your body is actually expecting.   Michelle (12:35) Right.   Lily (12:38) the most amount of food. Like we have trials for women with PCOS that are not intermittent fasting trials where they test out a same diet, but a different like breakdown of when you're having your calories. So they've done like large breakfast, moderate lunch, small dinner, or the reverse, small breakfast, moderate lunch, large dinner. And when you front load your food with a greater caloric intake at breakfast, tapering down over the day, even when the calories are matched, you see greater improvement.   in their metabolic health when you're front loading your food. And so this, essentially this intermittent fasting trial kind of did the same thing. Um, by default, by stopping eating at 4 PM, you are tapering down your, you know, caloric intake fairly early in the day. That may not be realistic or achievable for a lot of people, especially if you're a working person or you have, you know, a family and they're eating dinner at like six o'clock and you're missing out. Right.   But just to say there's different ways of achieving the same thing without having to cut off your eating window so early. But the greatest importance and what I've seen the most in practice benefiting my clients' metabolic health, whether or not they're trying to conceive or pregnant or postpartum, well whatever, male or female, is getting a sufficient protein-rich breakfast in.   really sets the stage for better regulation of your appetite and hunger and fullness cues throughout the day. Less like mindless eating and overeating and just better nutrient intake as a whole. And I think any of this, any of us can very easily experiment with this, right? Notice how you feel on the days when you skip breakfast. Notice how you feel in the days when you have an imbalanced, super high carb breakfast like   bagel or cereal or oatmeal and then notice the difference on the days when you're starting your morning with like eggs or maybe like Greek yogurt or cottage cheese like or leftover dinner that has protein in it some protein rich breakfast and notice how you feel through the morning at Your appetite at lunchtime whether you get an afternoon slump It's pretty easy within a couple days to like feel the difference for this. So   Michelle (14:19) Right.   Lily (14:41) I always am like trying to bring people back to their own body. Like how do you feel when you do this? Because my experience with clients really across the board is most feel better when they're getting that balanced breakfast in versus skipping it.   Michelle (14:56) it's true. I love that you kind of get people to tune in with themselves. Like, how does this feel for you? Because ultimately, I think that that's the best experiment you can feel it from the inside out. You can really experience the feeling that it gives you. And also, Ayurvedic medicine, they always talk about Agni, which comes out, it increases, it's your own digestifier and your own digestifier is very much responsive to nature.   and when the sun comes out and during the day.   And at breakfast and at lunch, our Agni is the highest because of the way the sun is up. And during that time to take advantage of eating, because that's when our bodies are gonna be able to process and digest food the most. And we should actually taper it down towards the end of the day when the sun goes down, our digestive system goes down, our metabolism slows down, and we're ready. Our bodies are preparing for bed. And so it's very intuitive, you know, what you're saying.   Lily (15:48) Yeah, it makes perfect sense. Yeah.   Michelle (15:50) Yeah, let's talk about maybe the phases, the follicular phase and the luteal phase, anything that you can contribute. I'm sure there's just so much. So I'm going to be asking you questions where I'm sure that you can go really into detail and you're not going to be able to. But just to get like more of a general for people short   follicular phase. I know that a lot of attention is not really put on that. Most people are focusing on like luteal phase defect. as far as food, is there anything that you think about when it comes to a short follicular   Lily (16:18) I mean the follicular phase is naturally going to be shortening over time as women approach menopause. So even starting in the late 30s, you can women just start sort of prepping for ovulation like earlier, like even maybe when they're you know, towards the end of their last cycle. And so some of that may just be an age thing.   I will say, under-eating as a whole does tend to shorten the cycle length, and that would probably also carry over into the follicular phase a little bit, although we usually are focusing on the luteal phase defect, where it's getting shorter, you start having other symptoms of low progesterone levels and all of that. So I would say...   take a look at your overall caloric intake. Like are you overdoing it with the exercise and then under fueling with food as a whole? We see lower hormone levels in women who are not only under eating but specifically under eating fat. And...   Michelle (17:17) Mm-hmm.   Lily (17:18) So if that's going on, there's a possibility that your hormone levels across the board, not just progesterone, but also estrogen could be lower. I mean, we have trials where they have specifically assigned women to a low fat diet for the purpose of lowering estrogen levels because we thought maybe that would be, you know, preventative for estrogen driven breast cancers later in life, right? And it works, you put people on a low.   diet their estrogen levels plummet as well as their progesterone. So I would take a look at your macro balance are you being too restrictive on fat? Like I said since fat goes hand-in-hand with protein like other than what you're adding separate to food if you're under eating protein you're probably also under eating more likely to be under eating fat as well because they often come packaged together.   Addressing the low fat issue may also involve addressing a low protein intake as a whole. And for those who are really like aware of calories from food, you know that fat is a more concentrated source of calories. So oftentimes for people who are calorie counting and dieting, that's the nutrient that they try to eliminate the most. So I would have some awareness on that. You may want to like dial down.   the exercise a little bit as well. Typically, when we think of nutrient changes over the cycle, the luteal phase, it's a little bit mixed in the research, but generally, we expect a slight increase in calorie requirements in the luteal phase. It seems to be that the desire for more food and specific cravings are more common in those who have   hormonal issues like low progesterone levels, maybe your body's trying to like make up for it, eat a little more so we can keep that hormone production going. But if that egg was not in the best quality because it wasn't, you were undernourished during the follicular phase, you're gonna have that show up in the luteal phase as well, right? So I think it kind of comes full circle, but I would say focusing on nutrient adequacy.   Michelle (18:52) Yeah, right.   Lily (19:11) would be where I would target it. While also acknowledging the follicular phase is likely just going to get shorter over time, the closer you get to menopause. And that's not necessarily something you have to like super stress about if everything else seems to be okay.   Michelle (19:25) Another thing that I actually noticed as you were talking, it's something that I've noticed like maybe once or twice, like that there's a link for me that I've seen with vegan diets impacting a shorter follicular phase. two cases that I'm kind of like thinking in my mind. And I'm wondering if it's because you're not, you're not really getting the animal fat.   Lily (19:35) Mmm.   Yeah.   Michelle (19:45) you're not getting the same kind of protein as you would from animal protein. It's just, and there's a lot of nutrients that you're also not able to really get with a vegan diet.   Lily (19:45) and protein.   Yes, and that's definitely an area worth mentioning for sure. We have a whole chapter on vegetarian diets that goes into quite a bit of detail. So vegans in particular tend to eat fewer calories, less protein, and less fat than their omnivorous counterparts. And we do see a significantly higher rate of hypothalamic amenorrhea.   in vegetarians and vegans, likely for that reason. There also tends to be, it's not always, but there's a higher prevalence of eating disorders among that group. In a way, it kind of gives you like the perfect cover for your eating disorder. Actually, I was just doing an interview with another podcast recently where the host was talking about that being part of her history, that she did use a vegetarian diet and a vegan diet to sort of cover.   for the eating disorder. Oh, I can't have any, is it vegan? Oh no, no thanks, right? Like you could just decline food across the board because it doesn't meet whatever standards or restrictions are part of the diet. So that can be another reason where it's like, yes, there are legitimate concerns about nutrient adequacy, but also some people are doing it as a way to restrict their caloric intake as well, which.   regardless of which foods are or are not in your diet, a caloric deficit is gonna create problems. But I do see significantly higher rate of cycle issues in vegetarian and vegan clients. And this is not just my practice, not just your practice. This is like per all the documented research as well. Is that a statistically higher rate on average, even if it's not gonna affect every single person who's on such a diet.   Michelle (21:27) Yeah, I see it quite a bit. some people really take it like religiously. It's something that they really feel ethically very connected to. So depending on how people feel, and then some people just don't like the taste of meat in which I'll...   offer beef liver pills and things like that to get around that. And we talked about Oregon meats actually last time, and I loved our conversation on that. I would love to get your take again on Oregon meats and why Oregon meats are superior really. And they're so nutrient dense and supportive for overall health, fertility health,   Lily (21:44) Yeah.   Michelle (22:01) We'd love to get your thoughts on that because I thought that was such an interesting topic we spoke about.   Lily (22:03) Sure.   Yeah, so I mean, cross-culturally, there has often been an emphasis on including certain nutrient-rich foods in the diet prior to conception and during pregnancy, kind of prioritizing them for the child-bearing future parents in the tribe, male or female. And that's kind of for good reason, if you look at the micronutrient content of them.   Each organ has different nutrients that are particularly high in this organ versus that organ. Liver tends to be the most nutrient dense. There's a few exceptions for some micronutrients that are higher in like heart or spleen or kidney or some of these other organs. They certainly have their place, even if they're maybe less commonly consumed in our current Western diet. But we see...   vastly higher rates of things like higher levels of nutrients like vitamin b12, choline, iron, zinc, vitamin a certainly and liver, and many different minerals in there as well. Both the big ones like iron and zinc and some of the like minerals we need in slightly smaller amounts like selenium and whatnot copper. So   Those foods, even when eaten in fairly small quantities, kind of act as like, uh, almost like a way to fortify your diet with extra nutrients. So if anybody has ever done like a cow share, for example, where you're buying the meat from a whole animal, you can also choose to get organs, which I always do, but you get, you know, hundreds of pounds of meat, maybe from a single cow and you get one liver, right? Which might be like,   Michelle (23:35) Mm-hmm.   Lily (23:36) the biggest liver I've ever gotten was like eight pounds. Must have been a big cow. But like you you're not getting like a huge amount relative to the rest of the meat that you're getting, but by including it in your diet, it doesn't have to be every day. We're talking maybe once a week or once every other week. Having a little bit of organ meats in there really does fortify your diet with a lot of these nutrients that are in lesser quantities in muscle meat. So   B12 for example, it's like 200 times more concentrated in organ meats than it is in muscle meats. If you were to calculate out the vitamin A for liver versus muscle meats, it'd be crazy because liver is the by far the richest source of vitamin A in our diets, like bar none. So these nutrients are really vitally important to the processes of ovulation, for the formation of sperm, for the   liver and organ meats have cholesterol in them and all of our steroid hormones are built on a backbone of cholesterol. So they're giving us kind of the raw materials necessary for our fertility. So huge fan of including some organ meats every once in a while in your diet. I have to give those qualifiers because sometimes when people hear me talking about organ meats, they think that I'm eating liver like three times a day or something. And I'm like, no, maybe like once a week, but.   Michelle (24:49) Yeah.   Lily (24:49) having it as part of the diet and it often does need to be specifically something you focus on because many of us do not have the taste for including liver. It's something we have to go out of our way to find because oftentimes it's not at the regular grocery store. Like I talk about it because of its nutrient density but I also have to like you know clarify quantity and frequency of consumption. So for those who do not   want to or don't have access to or do not enjoy the flavor of eating liver or organ meats, there are yes, desiccated organ supplements on the market. And yes, I've seen those provide huge benefits for clients who aren't consuming animal foods otherwise. That and also shellfish, like oysters or clams are very nutrient dense. And sometimes I'll have vegan clients who are willing to consume those, but not organ meats, right? So whatever gets it,   gets the nutrients down the hatches, you know, whatever works.   Michelle (25:40) Yeah, for sure. And so I actually wanted to talk about two common concerns that people have with liver. They think that because it cleans out toxins, that And then also the vitamin A content, because they think about vitamin A toxicity, which is different in food versus just taking vitamin A pills. So I'd love your take on that.   Lily (26:01) Yes, so yeah, we'll cover the toxin conversation. People are often very concerned about the toxin levels in liver. If you look at the data we have on like analyzing the levels of toxins and heavy metals and other things in different parts of an animal, the liver is not particularly higher in those contaminants than other parts of the animal. So I always find it kind of weird that people want to zero in on   I'm not going to eat that because it might be higher in contaminants when it doesn't even hold true. But be the quantity of liver you're consuming relative to muscle meats. You'd probably be getting more toxins overall from the muscle meats, but also you can find a reason to make any food like evil, right? You can find a reason to avoid anything. We're not gonna eat rice because the arsenic. We're not gonna have   Michelle (26:35) Yeah, but also...   It's true.   Lily (26:49) I don't know, we're not going to have shellfish because it might have cadmium or lead, even though you don't absorb most of what's in there. We're not going to have fish because of mercury, likewise, you don't absorb most of what's in there. If you really want to take it to that level, you are going to find something wrong with every single food. With liver though, it functions more as a...   Michelle (27:06) It's true.   Lily (27:10) It's somewhat of a filter because it filters your blood, of course. It's not holding on to all the toxins, but it also transforms the toxins. But a lot of what the liver does is there's different stages of detoxification and part of what it does is attach molecules and things to the toxins to make them easier for your body to excrete.   and then they're excreted in the bile, or maybe they go through the bloodstream and are excreted through the kidneys, or maybe you sweat and you sweat it out through your skin, or maybe it grows out through your hair, but it's not holding onto the toxins. It's trying to make them less toxic so your body can excrete them through your pathways of detoxification. So I think it's silly to think of the liver as a storehouse of toxins that actually isn't really true. It is a storehouse of nutrients   Michelle (27:43) Right.   Lily (27:57) process of all the things the liver does, detoxification is just one of many, many functions. Those are highly nutrient dependent activities. So it does hold on to nutrients because you need these nutrients as cofactors for all these different liver enzymes that are actively doing so many jobs to keep you alive. So if anything the liver is a storehouse of nutrients, not toxins.   is a storehouse for vitamin A. It really is. It has more vitamin A than any other food and it is also a storehouse for a number of other nutrients as well. Whether the vitamin A and liver is particularly toxic, A, I think we have to be speaking about the quantity. As I said, I'm not recommending people consume massive quantities of liver. I'm talking three to six ounces a week, which provides   less vitamin A than the so-called tolerable upper limit. The concerns over toxicity I think are twofold. A lot of people are worried about pregnancy specifically. You have to understand the studies they use to show that an intake of vitamin A was potentially toxic to the fetus was from synthetic supplemental vitamin A.   Michelle (29:03) Right.   Lily (29:03) So you can measure the metabolites in the blood after consuming vitamin A from different sources and you do not see the spikes in the harmful metabolites of vitamin A to the same degree from whole food sources like liver as you do from isolated synthetic vitamin A supplements. That said, I still don't recommend people consume so much liver that you're exceeding the tolerable upper limit, which again, three to six ounces of liver a week is perfectly fine.   There's a caveat, if you're up in the Arctic, don't eat polar bear liver because it is ridiculously concentrated in vitamin A. You can legitimately get toxicity, but you're not getting that level of vitamin A from beef liver, chicken liver, something like that. The case studies we have on vitamin A toxicity, which by the way usually self-resolves anyways, even if it is encountered, but nonetheless. These are in people...   Michelle (29:36) Mm-hmm.   Right.   Lily (29:53) I haven't seen one documented other than there was one case study in small children who were given like four ounces of chicken liver every day. They're infants. That's too much. That's too much liver. So yeah, exactly. I'm like what? But that again in that case study that self-resolved on its own. All the other case studies I've seen   Michelle (30:04) Yeah, it's too much. It's like, how do they even eat it?   Lily (30:15) Um, we're either there's two I can think of that were polar bear liver. I've never seen one from chicken or beef liver. All the rest of the case studies on vitamin A toxicity are synthetic supplemental vitamin A, and they're usually people taking mega doses, like hundreds of thousands of I use a vitamin A per day daily for years, which if you equate that to liver would be like. Multiple pounds of liver per day, every single day for years, like   Michelle (30:37) That's crazy. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.   Lily (30:39) something that you simply don't see in clinical practice. So I do recommend that people do keep an eye on their total vitamin A intake if they're big fans of liver or if they're doing liver capsules. And particularly if you're also taking like a multivitamin or a prenatal vitamin that has that preformed vitamin A, we don't wanna go crazy overboard.   I used to never need to give this caveat, but now that everybody's talking about organ needs and so many people are supplementing, I have had people come in where they're taking like a multi-organ supplement, a liver, desiccated liver supplement, and they're taking like the highest potency prenatal on the market that already has a decent amount of vitamin A. And I'm like, okay, well, we can probably cool it on some of these. Like the risk of overtly something terrible happening is quite slim.   Michelle (31:19) Right. Somewhere.   Lily (31:25) But I do think we're at a point where I'm like, okay, if you're consuming more than about the equivalent of like six ounces of liver per week, you just, your body simply doesn't need that much. And so if you have a case like that where they're taking in liver in many different forms plus like a high potency multivitamin, or even if they're taking, you know, a separate   all that much all on top of it. I still out of an abundance of caution keep my recommended intake below the tolerable upper limit. Even if you know that level it's set very conservatively but again from the most conservative angle I try to keep it under the tolerable upper limit just to be safe.   Michelle (32:03) Yes. And then also, yeah, I mean, a lot of this is obviously common sense because like, people aren't going to eat like ridiculous amounts or shouldn't, you know, eat ridiculous amounts of anything. So it's just a matter of really balancing things out. As far as beef versus chicken liver, what are your thoughts on that?   Lily (32:20) I mean, both are nutrient dense. There's a handful of things that may be higher in chicken liver off the top of my head without looking at a nutrient analysis. And I'm pretty sure I have a table of this in my article on liver and organ meats on my website. But off the top of my head, chicken liver is higher in folate. It's a little higher in iron. Beef liver is a little higher in...   vitamin A, for example. So you'll see slight differences in the nutritional profile. They're both ridiculously nutrient dense. You will certainly have differences in the flavor. So the liver from larger animals has a richer flavor than the liver from smaller animals like chickens. So, and also the texture is different. The liver from beef is a little more tough.   versus the liver from chicken tends to be very tender. So if somebody's brand new to consuming liver, I'm probably gonna have them opt for something like chicken liver and maybe try beef liver a little later. Some of it has to do with how you cook it too. If you look at like traditional recipes for cooking liver, it's usually kind of marinated or soaked in something for a while ahead of time that eases the flavor a bit. And then it is...   pan-fried at a kind of slightly lower temp and for a short period of time. You're not overcooking it. The longer you cook it, the more that kind of metallic iron flavor comes out and the tougher that it gets. So that's my only caveat there. I think chicken liver is an easier gateway into consuming liver than beef. But you could see what...   Michelle (33:36) Bye.   Lily (33:50) what you like. You can also do, you mentioned talking about other organ meats. So heart is a very, a much more mild flavor than liver. I mean, liver has a stronger, more metallic kind of flavor. So you can also do heart. Chicken hearts are like a delicacy in many countries and South America, they're often like skewered and grilled over the fire. You can even do like I have a recipe for Thai chili beef heart skewers on my website. Those can be like   It's much larger, so it has to be sliced up and everything, but when it's marinated, I mean, it's like a more flavorful steak. Heart is a very lean meat because it's a muscle, so it really has more of a steak kind of texture. You can slow cook it. We have like a beef heart stew recipe in real food for fertility that you could make. So that's an easier one for people to try.   Michelle (34:33) Mm-hmm.   Lily (34:34) even though the nutritional profile is a little different. Like there's no concerns about the vitamin A and in beef heart, for example, but it's really rich in iron, it's rich in CoQ10, it's rich in zinc, B12, many other things. It's like a slightly more robust, very lean muscle meat kind of a flavor.   Michelle (34:39) Bye.   of course I could pick your brain for hours because you're just so well fed for information. I really enjoy talking to you. But I know that you have to go. And I would love for you to share with the listeners how they can find you and how they can find food for fertility.   And basically, do you work with people online or do you offer any?   Lily (35:10) I'm not taking one-on-one clients anymore, but I do have referrals to the practitioners I train via the Institute for prenatal nutrition, many of which also specialize in fertility as well. But yeah, you can find me on my website, lillynicholsrdn.com. As I mentioned, there's, you know, when I refer to articles, those are all on my website. There's no paywall on my website. So just click the blog tab. You can search in the search bar for whatever search terms there are.   hundreds of articles up there. So definitely take advantage of that free resource. As for my books, you can find those on my site as well. Just go to the Books tab. Real Food for Fertility has its own website, real You can download the first chapter for free from that site and also check out the book on Amazon. And as far as social media, you can find me at   Lily Nichols RDN over on Instagram. That's usually where I am. I'm also on the other platforms. I just don't spend a whole lot of my time on social media as a whole these days.   Michelle (36:08) Awesome. Well, Lily, it was such a pleasure talking to you. I love all of the information you shared, and I know that it's going to be so valuable. And you guys got to check out the book. It's amazing, Real Food for Fertility. Thank you so for coming on today.   Lily (36:22) Thank you for having me.