Podcasts about michelle it

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome Kerry Hinds @fertilebodyyoga, founder of Fertile Body Yoga, who shares her inspiring fertility journey and how yoga became an essential part of her path to motherhood. Kerry opens up about her struggles with infertility, navigating IVF abroad, and ultimately conceiving naturally after stepping away from treatments. She also discusses the benefits of fertility yoga for calming the nervous system, enhancing blood flow, and creating a supportive environment for conception. In this episode, you'll learn how yoga can help balance your nervous system, why feeling safe is essential for fertility, and practical ways to integrate fertility yoga into your daily routine. This heartfelt conversation is filled with wisdom, hope, and practical tips for anyone on their fertility journey. Key Takeaways:  Kerry's personal fertility journey and challenges with IVF The pivotal moment when she conceived naturally after stepping away from treatments How fertility yoga supports the nervous system and reproductive health The importance of feeling safe and creating space within the body Practical tips on incorporating breathwork, movement, and mindfulness for fertility Guest Bio: Kerry Hinds @fertilebodyyoga is a certified E-RYT, RPYT, Relax and Renew® teacher, fertility yoga instructor, and Reiki practitioner. She founded Fertile Body Yoga to support individuals on their fertility journeys. Drawing from her personal experiences with fertility challenges, including undergoing treatments and experiencing pregnancy loss, Kerry offers compassionate guidance to her students. She leads weekly fertility yoga classes and provides various mind-body support programs through the Fertile Body Yoga Virtual Studio. Kerry is also the host of the "Fringe Fertility" podcast, where she explores holistic and alternative approaches to enhancing fertility. Websites/Social Media Links: Learn more about Kerry HindsFollow Kerry Hinds on Instagram Listen to her podcast: The Fringe Fertility For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ ---------------- Transcript: # TWF: Kerry Hinds [00:00:00] Episode number 329 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. My guest today is Carrie Hines. Carrie is the owner and founder of Fertile Body Yoga, a virtual yoga studio that is dedicated to supporting women navigating their fertility journey. She offers both live stream and on demand fertility yoga classes. and small group programs that embrace the complete journey physically, mentally, emotionally, energetically, spiritually, and socially. Carrie has been teaching yoga for over 20 years and has been specializing, teaching, and training almost solely fertility yoga for eight years. Her classes and offerings are informed by her own experiences with pregnancy loss, years of IVF, and eventually completing her family with two children. Carrie has supported thousands of women on their fertility journey so far and is on a mission to help women conceive and birth with yoga and community. Carrie also [00:01:00] hosts Fringe Fertility, a podcast that highlights supportive fertility practices beyond the doctor's office. **Michelle:** Welcome to the podcast. Carrie. I'm so happy to have you. **Kerry:** Thanks for having me, Michelle. I'm so happy to be here and spend some time with you today. **Michelle:** Yes. I would love for you to share your story first of all I love fertility yoga. I always suggest for my patients and my clients to do it It's something that I've personally myself have been really transformed by yoga in general. Many different types of yoga, a huge believer in it. And I also think that it's a, I call it an intelligent exercise. It's something that's been around for thousands of years and [00:02:00] really is a medicine in its own. So I would love for you to share your story and how you personally went through your own journey, but also how you combine fertility with yoga. **Kerry:** Okay. Yeah. I'll try and be a little bit concise cause I could go on and on for the, for a long time about this topic. But you know, as many listeners out there, you know, I didn't really start thinking about having kids till I was in my mid thirties. I took me a while to find the person I wanted to share my DNA with. Right. So when I did, we got married we moved to Germany and We went to Germany with the intention of this would be a good time for me to have kids. He's going to do his PhD. Germany has so many great social supports for families and so on. So we're like, Oh, it's just skim the cream off the top of that social system. And so when we got there, as often [00:03:00] happens, things don't go as planned when it comes to fertility. So we rolled into IUI. So we tried for six months, we found a clinic and. You know, we lived in old Eastern Germany, so it was hard to find English speaking doctors. So it was a very interesting time of my life. Not only was it just stressful in general dealing with what's going on and is this ever going to happen to living in another culture, another country? I didn't have a ton of support around, but then trying to navigate a new language that I was not fluent in. at all. So, I, you know, had one amazing friend there who spoke fluent, fluent German, American woman. And she's like,I will help you. And she went into those appointments with me, **Michelle:** oh **Kerry:** did all the **Michelle:** What a great friend **Kerry:** I know, I know. It was so amazing because I was so [00:04:00] lost at that time trying to figure out, like, just what's going on, but then how to say it in a different language or understand it in a different language. So for anybody who's doing this, fertility journey overseas or is here in North America It's not your mother tongue English, and you're trying to figure it out, I see you, I understand how this can add an extra level of stress to it. So we. You know, during that time, I actually went and did a yoga teacher training cause I was like, this isn't working. I want to do something for myself. So let's go get a yoga teacher training. I'd actually been teaching yoga for years before this was, so I've been teaching yoga for 20 years far before, This, you know, all these 200 hour yoga teacher trainings that, you know, you can sign up for one. No problem now. But back then it was your teacher [00:05:00] tapped you on the shoulder and said, Hey, do you want to be like, let's do this. And so that's kind of how I started yoga. But then when I was in Germany, I was like, okay, I need to, let's make this legit, right? Let's go get the training. I love it. I was teaching in Germany and so on. So that was sort of the, the main integration of the yoga into the fertility journey was just taking that bigger step to get the certification. And then, yeah, we went, we did IUIs. The first IUI was successful in that I got pregnant and, you know, 10 week ultrasound, there was no heartbeat. So we lost that baby. Yeah, and it was again, different culture, different bedside manners, different, it was just so stark. That's the word I could use for it. Shocking. It was just like, okay. The baby has no heartbeat. We're booking you in tomorrow for a DNC. Be there at 6 a. m. [00:06:00] You know, there was no time to, to, to absorb what was, to breathe, to figure out what I wanted. it was just like this snowball that was just like, okay, this has happened. You're going to do this. You're going to be better than you're going to start again. And you're going to keep trying and trying. So that's a whole other rabbit hole we could go down. But yeah, it was, it was a lot. It was a lot. And so we ended up going to do IVF, and this was, you know, 15 years ago. So things were maybe a little different than they are now. LikeICSI was just sort of a, more of a thing, right? It's Ooh, we're going to do this new cool thing. ICSI. I was like, okay. And they're like, and then there's embryo glue and we'll glue your embryo to your uterus. And it was all cutting edge at this time. And We did it. We did many cycles frozen cycles fresh cycles. Yeah, so many cycles and [00:07:00] nothing stuck, right? We had been doing IVF for two years and we kind of just paused and said, Is this, do we want to keep doing this?is this how we envision our life to be? And we wanted kids for sure, but we also wanted to start living our lives again. So that was a very pivotal moment in our journey is when we stepped away from IVF. We said, okay, we're done. I had gained weight. I wasn't feeling like myself. My body was weirdly puffy in different places and just, I was unhappy and I was emotional and I was just like, let's. Let's, let's walk away. And I remember my fertility doctor at the time, he said, you know, your chances of getting pregnant naturally are like one in a hundred million. Like you shouldn't be walking away from IVF. And I was like, you know, I'm okay. Like [00:08:00] I just, I need a break. And I walked away and a month and a half later I was pregnant. **Michelle:** Wow **Kerry:** intervention. And then nine months postpartum, I also was pregnant again by accident because we thought we had our miracle baby, right? So we were like, okay, whatever. And then I was pregnant again and through the whole journey, I was using yoga for my body, but more so for my energetic health, my mental, emotional health. So when we ended up coming back to the U S and moving to Boston, that was one of the first things I did. I did a prenatal yoga teacher training and I said, Hey, can we do fertility yoga? And she's like,I don't, I'm sure. I have no idea what it is. Tell me what it is. I'm like, either do I, but I'll get back to you. And that's sort of how the fertility yoga started. And [00:09:00] nobody was really doing it eight years ago. It was, **Michelle:** It's true **Kerry:** Like, there was nothing. There was a few people, there was a couple books out on it but I really spent a lot of time explaining. what it was that we were trying to do when we were doing like a fertility focused yoga practice. So that's kind of the story. That's the evolution. **Michelle:** Well, I love the story. I don't love that you went through the suffering through the story But I love the fact that you can it Prove with your story that when people tell you when you hear from doctors that you have one in a million chance or whatever that is, that is not necessarily the truth. That is their opinion. They say it very factually, and I think that that's where it gets very confusing for people. They say it very factually, and I'm not dismissing what doctors say because a lot of times it could be very accurate or they can, but I, I, what I don't love is Is when things are predicted because the body can be [00:10:00] so unpredictable. And it can also show so many signs that defy what it's going to do. So that's where, you know, I say just have an open mind or getting a second opinion is great. So, but I do love hearing those stories because I think when people who are going through that now and are probably listening to fertility podcasts because they want to get. Answers and hear other people's stories and when they hear stories like that it sparks some hope in their hearts So I think that that's really important **Kerry:** Yeah, I often get Students they'll ask me well what was it like right because this is what we want This is people don't want to do IVF if they don't have to and they're like, what was it? what happened and I was like, I cannot tell you I can't tell you a hundred percent that it was the yoga that I was doing or you know All the other lifestyle changes I was doing but something came [00:11:00] together You magically all together at the right time and this baby happened and if I had to choose one word for it, it would be exhale because there was this feeling that my body was no longer having to perform like it felt safe because I wasn't going in for you know, all these procedures and like they're. You know, minimally invasive, but you're still like vaginal ultrasounds and people poking around down there and all the operations that come with it. Anesthesia, all those sorts of things. And yeah, it's, it's a lot. So my body was like, whew, thank you. Thank you. Let me just be. And I think the mental piece was just like that. I wasn't going to go back to it. At least anytime soon. So my, my body was actually believing [00:12:00] me, right? And I don't think it's It's something that you can fake. It's not a time, like I had to go through those two years of IVF and pregnancy loss to get to that point. I don't think that there's we can't just kind of skip over it and be like, Oh, I'm just going to think this now and I'm going to get pregnant naturally. So it's a process. That's it. you know, everybody's journey is different and we just need to give ourselves a little bit of space sometimes to integrate what's going on and give our bodies that exhale, which is so important. Mm. **Michelle:** I love that you say that because actually exhaling longer can simulate your, parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest mode, which many times the majority of us in response to life are in the fight or flight mode. And especially when we feel unsafe. And I love that you use the word safe because when we feel unsafe, Then [00:13:00] we're really not in a creative mode. We don't create even like mentally when we're not feeling safe. **Kerry:** Yeah. **Michelle:** When we feel safe, we're able to create, we're able to let go and our body's able to create, and that's a, it's a state of growth. So I love that you talk about that. And I think that one of the commonalities between yoga and acupuncture, which actually they're related in  many ways. And because it's really about moving the energy because yoga is connected to Ayurveda. Ayurveda has Marma points and yoga is actually a branch of Ayurveda. it's part of the medicine of the physicality of the body and moving the energy. **Kerry:** Yep. **Michelle:** Qigong is sort of the yoga of Chinese medicine. So it's very related. And I think one of the biggest commonalities or one of the ways I think it really works is it's all about the nervous system. **Kerry:** 100 percent it, the nervous system. Like when I, [00:14:00] even these days I, when I'm talking to somebody, I'm like, I'm talking to a person. Yes. But I'm interacting with a nervous system. So with the words that I'm saying my body language or how I look at them, right? Like it, it all is interacting with third nervous system. So how are we working with nervous systems? And when we show up, in fertility world supporting people. For me, the huge part of fertility yoga is how do we harness this parasympathetic, I call it rest, digest and reproduce. That's what I call it, just  **Michelle:** Yeah. I love that. Yes. **Kerry:** Because what it is, it **Michelle:** Yup. **Kerry:** It's what yoga is so good at, sadly, right? Like our Western culture view of yoga has been a little focused almost exclusively on exercise and gymnastic style yoga. But [00:15:00] really traditionally, like you said, it was about the marma. It was about the energetic lines running through you and wherever you find that imbalance, you can work with the energetic field to create balance again. And as you know, the Marma points and acupuncture and pressure points are like following very similar lines and it's powerful. But it's subtle, right?  **Michelle:** Right. it's **Kerry:** explain. Yeah, like it's hard to explain exactly what's happening but it is, it's so powerful and it can really be transformative for how we, how we navigate the journey as embracing that, the quiet side, the quiet side of things. **Michelle:** Yes. And I think that the way we connect with it is through feeling. Right. Because that is ultimately how we do it, but we can't feel or pay attention to what we're feeling when we're distracted all the time by the noise of the world. So we're constantly disrupted by the [00:16:00] noise. It's very disrupting actually for our nervous system. We don't realize it because we're so used to it. You could be used to things that are really not healthy for you and listen, you know, hearing the outside noise. And the loud noises of construction, you know, the normal life, if you're living in the city, the constant sirens and honking, and, you know, those things are actually very taxing on the nervous system. And they put us in a fight or flight mode because our bodies don't really recognize them isn't in the natural world. So it stimulates a more fight and flight response. So having that counter balance with practices like yoga. In calming the nervous system. And what I love about yoga is that it includes breath, all the things that really stimulate the vagus nerve mantra sound. So you're able to tune your vibration and breath. Which is also very calming because if you exhale longer, like there's certain controlled breath [00:17:00] where you're able to control your brain through breath and even movement, somatic energy work and emotions that we can at least much more easily, like that control, but manage with our  bodies.  **Kerry:** Yeah. I couldn't say it better myself, Michelle. That was perfect. I think one thing, right, like we, we, we know that the fertility journey is stressful. We know that life is stressful. We know that we're probably living in a heightened state in our sympathetic more than we, we would like to. And yeah, the yoga piece can just. hit so many things. And one thing we need to remember is that we are created like evolutionarily are, you know, we are more attuned to the stresses, right? For survival. So the loud, the loud noises, it [00:18:00] alerts us to look around and see, Oh, is there something coming for me? Or the bright lights and things like that. Like we're just constantly Like our bodies are looking out to keep us safe all the time. And we're tuned to that, right, that our bodies are naturally tuned to go in that direction. And there's way more stimuli that will take us that way. And then with the other side, the parasympathetic, we have to work harder and more intentionally to go there. And I think that is one of the things that is the hardest is you actually need to train the system to be more fluid. It's not the stress isn't going to go away. Stress isn't going to go away, but if you are training your nervous system to float more evenly back and forth between the two and taking the time to go parasympathetic as best that you can, whether it's with the breath or [00:19:00] with yoga or going for a walk in nature or anything like that You're rebalancing, but we have to make more effort that is just the way we're, we're built. And yeah, like things that will help us be calmer are like dim lights, quietude, support. So like lying down flat. So our body doesn't have to be alert, like even sitting, we have to be alert.  So we might not fall over weight. Unless you're claustrophobic, of course so yeah, there's lots of things that we can add, and yoga does that. Restorative yoga, which is a huge piece of how I teach fertility yoga it, that is what it does. those are the things that we're embracing when we do restorative yoga.  **Michelle:** I love restorative yoga. **Kerry:** Me too.  **Michelle:** Oh, it feels so good. It really just feels so good. And you know what? I love to. I remember taking a yoga class and the teacher after we're laying in Shavasana said, allow the ground to support [00:20:00] you. And I'm like, just the thought of that changes. My experience laying down right now **Kerry:** Yes. Yes I say that too in my yoga classes or I'm like the earth is coming up to hold you and you Let the earth hold you like it's like a two way street. It's like here I am I'm here, but you need to let go into it too. Yeah, it, there's so many wonderful things about restorative yoga. I mean, it's not the only part of fertility yoga the way I teach it, but it is definitely a huge part of what I like to emphasize to help train the nervous system that like,  Oh, Oh, I remember this place of calm and safety, right? And then if we can condition it with at the beginning of every Shavasana or every restorative yoga pose, you do three big, deep breaths, long exhales. The body then starts to put it all together. and [00:21:00] say, Oh, when she takes three big, long, deep breaths, it's time to relax. It's time to release and let go. So we can, there's so much we could do to support ourselves on that level, I think. But yeah, society makes it hard. **Michelle:** Right, so it's almost like a triggering relaxation response To something that you repeat over and over again I always say likeif you do meditation and you burn a specific incense That's clean or something that I'm even in the central oil Like diffuse a specific one every single time you start to meditate you're immediately going to It's almost like pavlov's dog. You're always going to associate it with meditation time and our scent brings us Right there because it's so connected our olfactory nerve, which is really responsible for our sense of smell Is connected to our brains directly **Kerry:** Yeah. And certain smells will be more grounding and, you know, so choose your smells. wisely, I would say, you know, where like,citrus [00:22:00] and high notes are a little bit more stimulating where like the deeper tones like sandalwood and like the earthy green trees, those sorts of things can just be really calming. And then plus the volatile oils that are in evergreen trees are calming to the nervous system. **Michelle:** Yeah. It's not amazing. **Kerry:** You know, so why not put those in your diffuser like use all the tools that you can and and and then things smell good **Michelle:** Yeah.  **Kerry:** like  I just  **Michelle:** who doesn't like that? **Kerry:** Yeah Yeah, **Michelle:** That's awesome. So just take people through, likeif they've never really heard of fertility yoga, like what differentiates fertility yoga from regular yoga  or other types of yoga? **Kerry:** Whoo. So the first I would say are the people that are in the class so it is just really dedicated to holding space for those that are trying to conceive and it can be anybody from, Oh, I'm just [00:23:00] thinking about it, but I, my periods have been a little weird all my life. I just want to get in tune with my body to those who have, you know, eighth round of IVF, like really deep into the journey. So I think the community piece is really important because, People like to be seen and understood. And when we do a check in at the beginning of our classes, even though it's online and there's all these little squares and so on on the Zoom room, people, you see people nodding and oh, and like sending hearts and doing all the things. And just creating community around that as opposed to if you went to a regular yoga class and you walked up to your teacher and said, Oh, by the way, I'm doing a stim cycle right now. They're not going to know what to do with you. They're not going to know how to keep you safe, nor are they going to know how to nurture that part of the cycle. So that's the 2nd piece is. Becoming or recognizing [00:24:00] where you are in your cycle and then matching the energies of that time. So follicular phase is a little more. Woo woo, woo hoo, right? Springtime, and follicles are growing, you have more energy because of the hormones, and an ovulation, you're just like the queen bee, right? So these are the energies that we would say, okay, if you're in the follicular phase, you're gonna do this twist, and so on, and blah blah blah. And then you would say, okay, oh, you're in the luteal phase, things are a little quieter, You might be pregnant, you're in the two week wait, you're post transfer, you're stimming, like all these things, then we need to be a little quieter with the body and give the pelvic area a little bit more space. So we would work with that and do some modifications for that. So really following the cycle. So when I'm teaching, I'm constantly, Okay, if you're in the follicular phase, you're going to do this. If you're in the luteal phase, you're going to [00:25:00] do this. So not only am I keeping people safe, but I'm also like finding the nourishing pieces as well. So it's like,I'm boosting that energy and keeping you safe where you wouldn't be able to do that in a regular class. And then the movement piece. Is really just like slow flow, somatic movement, a lot of it's pelvic centered, but not always because we hold tension and all different places in our body, the chakra system, the energetic system, right? We want it flowing as well as possible for many reasons. So it's lots of ooey gooey, juicy sort of moves in and around the pelvis. So what else did I forget? Oh, and of course the yoga wisdom part of it, right? The energetics, the, the wisdom. So I teach, I'm very thematic when I teach. So I will choose a theme and it may [00:26:00] come from yoga. For example, I did a class or I'm doing a series right now. We're doing an elemental series. So it's five weeks. Perfect. Five elements. Let's do this in yoga anyway, or in Ayurveda. So I'm like, we started with earth, like, why is earth, why is grounding important in fertility, then water and fire and so on. So, yeah, just bringing a new perspective into it, like something to be like, oh, okay, I get it. I get that, I need to be grounded and feel safe for fertility to I don't want to say be boosted, but to be, to feel safe, your body, or to be working at full capacity, whatever is happening in your body, your body needs to feel safe for the fertility hormones. Whew.  **Michelle:** I'm sure there's a lot more even that you might not even realize it, you know, because when we feel safe, I [00:27:00] mean, there's so many things that our bodies naturally do. And our bodies are so intelligent. And it puts us into a growth cycle in general, like our bodies are able to regenerate and repair when it feels like it's getting rest, the proper rest. So, also uh, something that I've noticed, and I do have some patients, it's really interesting because it kind of correlates with jaw tension, but it usually correlates with hip tension. **Kerry:** Hip and pelvic floor, probably. Yeah. **Michelle:** And so that's something that I always think about with fertility yoga is really kind of like getting that area more free because it correlates to the first and second chakra. And the first chakra is really that rooted chakra, the place that we feel safe, and that holds up the second chakra, which is really where our fertility is. So in order to have that active, you know, it depends on that foundation of safety. **Kerry:** Yeah. **Michelle:** So also the blood flow, I'm [00:28:00] sure. **Kerry:** Oh, yeah. Yeah. See, there's so much. I like so many things. But yeah, so that somatic slow flow movement that's pelvic centered, of course, it's like, it's energetic, like bringing energy in and like moving energy, which is really important when we're in our lifestyle of sitting stagnant a lot of the time. And yeah, the blood flow, Like this gentle squeeze and release, right? Like it's constantly bringing in new oxygenated blood into the organs of the pelvis. And I think often in yoga, we don't think, we don't think about the organ level. when we're moving our bodies. And that's what I love about the Ayurvedic yoga. It's more okay, this is happening in your body. let's look at the liver, right? So you're doing side bends and the liver and the spleen and just incorporating more of those, organs, like the systems of the body. It's not just about. the [00:29:00] large muscle groups and releasing tension, which feels great and is lovely and good for energy and marma points and things like that. But we can also work at the organ level and the hormonal level. **Michelle:** Yeah, for sure. And do you also include pranayama? Yeah. **Kerry:** I do breath work. I don't do we're going to do half an hour pranayama every time, but I will integrate breath work or pranayama techniques. When they're suited for the theme or what we're doing with our bodies, sometimes mudra as well. So like, let's, Which is our hand gesture. Yeah. It's like a seal. **Michelle:** again, see, it relates to the meridians and the energetic connections in the body. It's like our body's like a circuit. So putting our fingers together in certain positions will actually link that circuit and, and have it continue. **Kerry:** Yeah, yeah, and [00:30:00] I was never really into mudras  for quite a while of my yoga journey like I was like Oh, yeah, let's I'm gonna stick my fingers together do whatever all the things that you know Yeah, mudra and so on that you see all the time and then someone actually sat down and we we I learned and I experimented with like slowly touching your fingers together and then like you know, do you want to increase something or decrease something, et cetera. And it was actually very profound.  And that energetic piece, I believe it, and it's now Ayurveda as well. And in yoga, energy is the thing that connects. The element that connects body and mind. Right. We're always talking about body and mind, but what is it that's, that's going on to connect those two? It's the energetic body. And pretty soon I am hoping western science will get on [00:31:00] board. It slowly **Michelle:** It is. It's really fascinating. I mean, that's a lot of Dr. Joe dispenses. He's always talking about like energy frequencies, and he talks about how we can connect and he does a lot of scientific research on it actually. So he looks at the brain waves and how they respond to certain meditations and certain energy movements. He does also breath a specific breath. And a lot of people have Kundalini awakenings. That's what it, I mean, he doesn't call it that. He talks about it more scientific and he talks about chakras. He doesn't call it chakras. He calls it energy centers. And it's basically the same thing that we've been, you know, we've been taught years ago, thousands of years ago. And ultimately, I mean, people are having Kundalini rising. They, they see this light, they feel this incredible energy just shooting through their spine from the base. It opens up cause that's where the Kundalini of people haven't really learned about that. They say that there's this [00:32:00] dormant energy at the root of your spine. That's always there, but it's sleeping. And so sometimes  doing. Yep. And when we do breath work or certain types of exercises, it can actually awaken that when that awakens, a lot of people have spontaneous healing, spontaneous remission, and it's really fascinating. So his work is also very much based on quantum physics. And if you look at a lot of the old work and teachings of ancient cultures. They describe pretty much what we're learning as quantum physics. And it ultimately comes down to the fact that we are mostly energy and much, much, much, much less matter than we really think we are. We're like 0. 0000001. It's like a million tons of zeros. And then one, that's how our matter is. And if we actually Take it like the space actually is way more in between the [00:33:00] particles in our bodies and just what we  see. So it's kind of like an illusion. It's really fascinating. So we really are vibratory beings, which is why vibration sound really impacts our bodies. I can nerd. I  **Kerry:** I, I'm going to go, I'm going  to,  **Michelle:** all day long. **Kerry:** I know me too. Well, I, well, there's two things I wanted to talk about, but first I want to talk about space and spaciousness, openness. And I often say to my students, like magic happens in the space. So when we think about the body, We need space in our body, openness, spaciousness, for our body to function, right? between the synapses, there's a little gap, right? It's tiny,  but it's there. And that we have, we need to have space, the womb, let's not forget, that is space. openness, spaciousness, [00:34:00] right? we have to have space in our digestive track and air and things like that to keep it moving. And now I'm like going off the deep end and also Ayurveda of course, right? anything that is moving in our body is the air and ether element and ether is spaciousness, it's openness. And so I often emphasize this idea you in class of creating space. When we move our pelvis, we're creating space. We're opening up, we're releasing blocked energy, if you will, or like stagnant blood, like we are getting things moving. And when things are moving, the magic happens, right? Like the space, we need that spaciousness. Oh yeah. I  **Michelle:** that.  **Kerry:** Yeah. The **Michelle:** Well, it's, it's so cool. I mean, cause, cause that's one of the things that Joe Dispenza does is he first, he almost puts you in an induction with his [00:35:00] meditations and he says space, and he wants you to focus on like this endless space. But the reason why is there's a rhyme. There's a reason for everything that he does is that when our minds focus on space, it actually creates. I don't know how to how he described it. Actually. I mean, I go to so many of his stuff, but I don't remember everything but he said that when you do that, I think it takes you almost to a different mind. Mental frequency brainwave when you start to focus on space. **Kerry:** Well, so Yoga Nidra, which we had talked about previously, but Yoga Nidra, which is like a 5, 000 year old technique that the yogis came up with it is about, it is about that. It is about slowing down your brainwave to delta wave, which is what your brainwaves would be like if you were in deep sleep. And why do we love deep sleep so much? Because that's when we heal, that's when we [00:36:00] process and calibrate and so on. Our organs are doing their cleaning up and all that and it's so important and it's definitely related to fertility that deep sleep state. And Yeah, with Yoga Nidra, we're purposefully going there, but being conscious when we're there. So it's an experience that we would never do. We would never get to that state on our, on our own naturally. Like we'd either be in deep sleep or we wouldn't be in Delta. So this is what I love about Yoga Nidra. And like you were saying, just even the concept of thinking about. Space or expansiveness or you know, you're in an airplane, you look out the window and all you see is infinite space. it never ends. It just goes on and on and on. Right. But yeah, it does, slow us down. It slows down the brainwave so we can get out of the, the gamma or the, you know what we're in right now [00:37:00] talking. **Michelle:** Yes. And it also gives you a sense of freedom. You just feel this like sense of peace and freedom from that space. Cause then you're like, ah, you know, there's just so much, and there's so many possibilities and it's open. And so for people actually who have not heard of yoga, Nidra, can you explain what it is exactly? **Kerry:** Okay. So yoga nidra, like I said, it's thousands of years old. It has so many benefits. I mean, it's so many like deep healing, but also like physical deep healing, but also mental emotional. So it takes, you know, sort of these deeply ingrained, maybe even ancestral patterns that we have, we can start to change those patterns. The body can process all of those things. It's so, it's. It's, it's the Soma we say in yoga, it's the sweet nectar. [00:38:00] It's the nectar that we want for our bodies, especially during fertility, but also to for overall health and longevity. We want to have that sweetness and that nectar in us. And what I use it for, I do a ton of Yoga Nidra in classes. It is It is a progressive deep relaxation technique. It that it has been, Huberman has taken it and called it non sleep deep rest because it's more palpable to Western mind. So it's been an eye rest and all these things. So it's yoga nidra has been taken and repackaged in many different ways for our Western minds. I love the traditional one. Of course, I'm sure you probably do too. And. Yeah, you just, you go  ## Marker **Kerry:** progressively to put your body to sleep. So you go through body parts and you relax those body parts and we can, instill or implant a message. [00:39:00] We call it sankalpa, but you can call it whatever you want. Affirmation, it's not quite the right word. Intention maybe of what deep healing you want to happen. And that's sort of implanted throughout the deep relaxation part. And then yoga nidra is actually a state. It's not the progress of getting there. So yoga nidra is when you are, your body's asleep, you're conscious. But your brain is in these sort of Delta waves and sometimes you get there, sometimes you don't, and sometimes the journey is joyful to, to get there too, right? So it's not oh, you have to get to that state to get any benefit. You're still getting all that parasympathetic work going on. The body feels safe and protected. And most people feel very blissful. afterwards, they often say, Oh, it's like hypnotic that there's like this [00:40:00] hypnosis. And my voice too, I think it's like low and like kind of slow and steady. They're like, Oh, I just hear your voice and I start to relax. Right. So it is a really powerful tool. And if I were to choose one thing, like people say, what yoga pose should I do to help my fertility? If I could choose one thing I would say do Yoga Nidra for at least 40 days straight **Michelle:** Yeah, **Kerry:** and see what happens. I think it's perfect. And I have a program, 40 days, a 40 day program where you have the option to do Yoga Nidra every day if you wanted to, or meditation. So yeah, it's, it's perfect. It's really powerful. really **Michelle:** is so cool. And I'm excited actually to have you as a guest contributor to my fertility hypnosis toolbox. Soon. I know a lot of people, listeners are probably on there, so you guys I'll be very excited. I think by the [00:41:00] time this is out, probably going to  **Kerry:** it. to you. I promise. I will do it. I feel honored  **Michelle:** have time. you have time.  **Kerry:** Yeah, I  know. But I wanted to make it, this is me. I want to make it, I don't want to just maybe take an old recording that, you know, It's, you know, been out there for a while. Like I want to make new things for you and also like, where do we need the yoga nidra the most? Like the two week wait, perfect time, um, after law. So you know, I want to theme them so that there's it hits home for what people need the most. **Michelle:** Well, I'm so grateful for that and I'm grateful for this conversation. I think this is awesome. I can nerd out on this stuff  **Kerry:** too. Me too. Me too. I **Michelle:** I think we're on the same page. **Kerry:** I am **Michelle:** fascinating.  **Kerry:** nerdy about it. And, **Michelle:** Yeah. **Kerry:** and, I mean, I know, I love what you do. All the messaging that you're sending out there to those that are on this journey, I think it's so valuable and, [00:42:00] and needed. we need more voices that are like, here, right? here, **Michelle:**  the ancient stuff, kind of like the bridging that ancient wisdom, that ancient nurturing, really connecting with nature. Cause I know that you also are a big fan of nature and being out in nature. And I think that really just kind of coming home to like our authentic authenticity of, as humans, and sort of the tribalness that, you know, coming home to really our roots and the sacredness that we have also as women. I think that that's there's so much power in that. And I think that a lot of people are thirsting for that. And that's why I nerd out on this. I say, it's you know, I could say my brain nerds out now, but I think my soul nerds **Kerry:** Mm. Oh, I love that. Yes, my soul nerds out on it. That is so good. I love that. I'm gonna use it  if I  can't  **Michelle:** said, well, Carrie, like I, we had such a great conversation also on your podcast, **Kerry:** yes  **Michelle:** guys. Yes. I highly recommend you guys [00:43:00] check out her podcasts. Fringe fertility. So it is definitely like something that I highly suggest. Cause you're going to get more of this amazing conversation on there and she has other guests on there. So yeah, very  **Kerry:** thanks for the shout out for the podcast. Thank you. Yeah. Well, it was a pleasure to be here today and sharing this conversation. I could just do it forever and ever. **Michelle:** for sure. And also before we go, how can people find you? What are the best ways? **Kerry:** sure. So yeah, I have a website Fertile Body Yoga. So it's a virtual yoga studio dedicated to fertility. So fertilebodyyoga. com. That's probably the, the lead in place to find me. I'm on Instagram as well. I'm not a huge Instagrammer though. And lately, I'm feeling like I just might need to walk away because for my mental health. But I do have an Instagram account. It is fertile body yoga there. And yeah, like I'm always doing [00:44:00] some great collaborative workshops and I have a retreat coming up at the end of April. You can cut this out if it's not the right timing, but so an in person retreat in New Hampshire at the end of April with. Two lovely co creators. So that, that's the big thing. That is huge. This has been years in the making and it's  finally  **Michelle:** That's so exciting. Well, congratulations. That's really cool. **Kerry:** Yeah. Thank you. **Michelle:** Awesome. Well, Carrie, this has been a pleasure and we really do have great conversations. I could tell you that we definitely are very aligned in a lot of the way we view the body and really view the fertility journey. And also thank you for sharing your own experience and now sharing your story. Cause I think that a lot of people will be inspired by that as well. So thank you so much. This has been amazing. Perfect.  **Kerry:** Thank you. for having me.[00:45:00] [00:46:00]     

In the first of a special series, Morgan Stanley's U.S. Thematic and Equity Strategist Michelle Weaver discusses new frontiers in artificial intelligence with Keith Weiss, Head of U.S. Software Research.----- Transcript -----Michelle: Welcome to Thoughts on the Market I'm Michelle Weaver, Morgan Stanley's U.S. Thematic and Equity Strategist.Keith: And I'm Keith Weiss, Head of U.S. Software Research.Michelle: This episode is the first episode of a special series we're calling “Big Debates” – where we dig deeper into some of the many hot topics of conversation going on right now. Ideas that will shape global markets in 2025. First up in the series: Artificial Intelligence.It's Friday, January 10th at 10am in New York.When we look back at 2024, there were three major themes that Morgan Stanley Research followed. And AI and tech diffusion were among them. Throughout last year the market was largely focused on AI enablers – we're talking semiconductors, data centers, and power companies. The companies that are really building out the infrastructure of AI.Now though, as we're looking ahead, that story is starting to change.Keith, you cover enterprise software. Within your space, how will the AI story morph in 2025?Keith: I do think 2025 is going to be an exciting year for software [be]cause a lot of these fundamental capabilities that have come out from the training of these models, of putting a lot of compute into the Large Language Models, those capabilities are now being built into software functionality. And that software functionality has been in the market long enough that investors can expect to see more of it come into results. That the product is there for people to actually buy on a go forward basis.One of the avenues of that product that we're most excited about heading into 2025 is what we're calling agentic computing, where we're moving beyond chatbots to a more automated proactive type of interface into that software functionality that can handle more complex problems, handle it more accurately and really make use of that generative AI capability in a corporate or in an enterprise software setting as we head into 2025.Michelle: Could you give us an example of what agentic AI is and how might an end user interact with it?Keith: Sure. So, you and I have been interacting with chatbots a lot to gain access to this generative AI functionality. And if you think about the way you interact with that chatbot, right, you have a prompt, you have a question. You have to come up with the question. going to take that question and it's going to, try to contextually understand the nature of that question, and to the best of its ability it's going to give you back an answer.In agentic computing, what you're looking for is to add more agency into that chatbot; meaning that it can reason more over the overall question. It's not just one model that it's going to be using to compose the answer. And it's not just the composition of an answer where the functionality of that chatbot is going to end. There's actually an ability to execute what that answer is. So, it can handle more complex problems.And it could actually automate the execution of the answer to those problems.Michelle: It sounds like this tech is going to have a massive impact on the workplace. Have you estimated what this could do to productivity?Keith: Yeah, this is -- really aligns to the work that we did actually back in 2023, where we did our AI index, right. We came up with the conclusion that given the current capabilities of Large Language Models, 25 per cent of U.S. occupations are going to be impacted by these technologies. As the capabilities evolve, we think that could go as high as 45 per cent of U.S. labor touched by these productivity enhancing. Or, sort of, being replaced by these technologies. That equates to, at the high end, $4 trillion of labor that's being augmented or replaced on a go forward basis. The productivity gains still yet to be seen; how much of a productivity gain you could see on average. But the numbers are massive, right, in terms of the potential because it touches so much labor.Michelle: And finally on agentic, is the market missing anything and how does your view differ from the consensus?Keith: I think part of what the market is missing is that these agentic computing frameworks is not just one model, right? There's typically a reasoning engine of some sort that's organizing multiple models, multiple components of the system that enable you to -- one, handle more complex queries, more complex problems to be solved, lets you actually execute to the answer. So, there's execution capabilities that come along with that. And equally as important, put more error correction into the system as well. So, you could have agents that are actually ensuring you have a higher accuracy of the answer.It's the sugar that's going to make the medicine go down, if you will. It's going to make a lot easier to adopt in enterprise environments. I think that's why we're a little bit more optimistic about the pace of adoption and the adoption curves we could see with agentic computing despite the fact it's a relatively early-stage technology.Michelle: You just mentioned Large Language Models, or LLMs; and one barrier there has been training these models. It requires a ton of computing power, among other constraints. How are companies addressing this, and what's in the cards for next year?Keith: So, if you think about the demand for that compute in our mind comes from two fundamental sources. And as a software analyst, I break this down into research versus development, right? Research is investment that you make to find core fundamental capabilities.Development is when you take those capabilities and make the investment to create product out of it. Thus far, again, the primary focus has been on the training side of the equation.I think that part of the equation looks to be asymptotic to a certain extent. The – what people call the scaling laws, the amount of incremental capability that you're getting from putting more compute at the equation is starting to come down.What people are overlooking is the amount of improvement that you could see from the development side of the equation. So, whereas the demand for GPUs, the demand for data center for that pure training side of the equation might start to slow down a little bit, I think what we're going to see expand greatly is the demand for inference, the demand to utilize these models more fully to solve real business problems.In terms of where we're going to source this; there are constraints in terms of data center capacity. The companies that we cover, they've been thinking about these problems for the past decade, right? And they have these decade long planning cycles. They have good visibility in terms of being able to meet that demand in the immediate future. But these questions on how we are going to power these data centers is definitely top of mind for our companies, and they're looking for new sources of power and trying to get more creative there.The pace with which data centers can be built out is a fundamental constraint in terms of how quickly this demand can be realized. So those supply constraints I don't think are going to be a immediate limiter for any of our names when we're thinking about calendar [20]25. But definitely, part of the planning process and part of the longer-term forecasting for all of these companies in terms of where are they going to find all this fundamental resource – because whether it's training or inference, still a lot of GPUs are going to be needed. A lot of compute is going to be needed.Michelle: Recently we've been hearing about so called artificial general intelligence or AGI. What is it? And do you think we're going to see it in 2025?Keith: Yeah, so, AGI is the – it's basically the holy grail of all of these development efforts. Can we come up with models that can reason in the human world as well as we can, right? That can understand the inputs that we give it, understand the domains that we're trying to operate in as well or better than we can, so it can solve problems as effectively and as efficiently as we can.The easiest way to solve that systems integration problem of like, how can we get the software, how could we get the computers to interact with the world in the way that we do? Or get all the impact that we do is for it to replicate all those functionalities. For it to be able to reason over unstructured text the same way we do. To take visual stimuli the same way that we do. And then we don't have to take data and put into a format that's readable by the system anymore.2025 is probably too early to be thinking about AGI, to be honest. Most technologists think that there's more breakthroughs needed before the algorithms are going to be that good; before the models are going to be that good.There's very few people who think Large Language Models and the scaling of Large Language Models in themselves are going to get us to that AGI. You're probably talking 10 to 20 years before we truly see AGI emerge. So, 2025 is probably a little bit too early.Michelle: Well, great, Keith. Thank you for taking the time to talk and helping us kick off big debates. It looks like 2025 we'll see some major developments in AI.And to our listeners, thanks for listening. If you enjoy Thoughts on the Market, please leave us a review wherever you listen to the show and share the podcast with a friend or colleague today.

innovative strategies from Gulsen Berkin Cinar and Michelle McLean, who are back after five years to share their secrets. From capitalizing on Amazon influencer opportunities to selling seasonal products, they reveal methods where people are earning up to $70,000 a month with no investment. Join us as we explore the incredible journey of a family-run Amazon business that skyrocketed from modest beginnings to a seven-figure revenue before being sold. Gulsen shares the thrill of launching a new brand and expanding into platforms like Shopify and Walmart. Michelle, driven by her passion for seasonal products, recounts her success with Amazon products during Christmas, illustrating the excitement of spotting and profiting from trending items. Dive into the world of Amazon influencers and affiliates with Michelle's expert tips on maximizing commission potential by reviewing higher ticket items. Discover how you can earn substantial income through Helium 10's affiliate program, even if you're just starting out. We'll also guide you on signing up for this lucrative opportunity and highlight the benefits, including lifetime recurring commissions and other rewards. Don't miss this episode, which is packed with actionable insights and real-life success stories designed to help you thrive in the e-commerce world. (Time Stamps) -  In episode 596 of the Serious Sellers Podcast, Bradley, Gulsen, and Michelle discuss: 00:00 - Boss Ladies Making Money Online 03:09 - Amazon Influencer Affiliate Program 03:47 - Amazon Business Exit and Brand Scaling Success 10:23 - Influencer Program and Earning Commissions 14:17 - First Amazon Product Review Videos 20:08 - Product Sourcing and Market Research 22:48 - Amazon Affiliate and Reviewer Earning Potential 29:02 - Helium 10 Affiliate Earning Potential 32:47 - The Power of Consistent Growth 34:29 - Helium 10 Affiliate Discount Opportunities 38:01 - Affiliate Program Sign-Up and Benefits ► Instagram: instagram.com/serioussellerspodcast ► Free Amazon Seller Chrome Extension: https://h10.me/extension ► Sign Up For Helium 10: https://h10.me/signup  (Use SSP10 To Save 10% For Life) ► Learn How To Sell on Amazon: https://h10.me/ft ► Watch The Podcasts On Youtube: youtube.com/@Helium10/videos Transcript Bradley Sutton: Today we've got a couple of boss ladies on the show who haven't been in the podcast in five years and they're going to be talking about cool ways that they're making thousands of dollars in their spare time by being either an Amazon influencer or selling seasonal products, along with a way that some people with no investment are even being paid $70,000 a month from Helium 10. How cool is that? Pretty, I think. Important message, guys. On October 23rd, Amazon is changing the window for which you can look back and claim that they owe you reimbursements for lost and damaged products at FBA warehouses. It used to be 18 months, but now it's going down to only 2 months. So, if you have never used a reimbursement service or Refund Genie, now is the time. Last week, I ran Refund Genie on two different accounts and got a total of over $5,000 back for those sellers. And don't forget, unlike a lot of services out there, Helium 10 doesn't take any commission on what we get back. If we say you're owed ten thousand dollars and you get back ten thousand dollars from amazon, you keep ten thousand dollars with no commission to Helium 10 at all. Refund Genie is now available to anybody who has a Helium 10 Platinum Annual Plan or higher. So, to get an estimate about on how much money you could get back, go to h10.me/refundgenie. If you've never used a Helium 10 coupon, use the code SSP10 to save money if you need to upgrade to a Platinum Annual Plan.   Bradley Sutton: Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Serious Sellers Podcast by Helium 10. I am your host, Bradley Sutton, and this is the show. That's a completely BS-free, unscripted and unrehearsed organic conversation about serious strategies for serious sellers of any level in the e-commerce world, and we've got a couple of people here that are super, super old school here at Helium 10, including the one person, the only person who has been at the company here in United States side longer than me, and then another person who was one of my first hires here at Helium 10 just a couple months after I got started. So, Gulsen and Michelle, welcome back to the show.   Michelle: Hello   Gulsen: Hello   Michelle: wow, I feel so old.   Bradley Sutton: Well, hey, that's why I'm also I'm wearing the old school Helium 10 logo shirt here to kind of like reminisce about our old days, you know, way back then in the WeWork. Now I say welcome back to the show because there's been a huge gap since Michelle and Gulsen have been on the show the word now in episode I don't know like 580 something or 590 something. Their first time on the show was episode 86, way back in December of 2019. So, if you want to get a little bit more of their backstory, go ahead and see if you can find I don't even know if you can find such an old episode, but episode 86, where we had them and some of the other members of our crew all together on one episode. But I was like you know what? It's been years since you guys have come on and each of you have interesting things to talk about. So, let's go ahead and have you guys uh back on. So, first of all, um, let's start with uh, Gulsen. Now what about you? And you know you've since before you even worked at Helium 10. You know you've had like a family Amazon business. Um, ven offline, obviously you're my co-worker, but we've never really talked about that in a long time. Like, are you guys still selling on Amazon? You selling on other market? What have you guys been doing with that side of your things?   Gulsen: Yes, so you don't know this, but you know we were running that Amazon business with my husband and last year December we sold that one and the first call I received. Now my husband is building another brand.   Bradley Sutton: Well, hold on. I want to talk about that. I didn't know that you were right, I had brand and I want to talk about that. I didn't know that. You're right, I had no idea. So how did you find a buyer for the business? What was it like through an aggregator? Did you use a service or just networking?   Gulsen: Yeah, he was with a partner and um, he was always getting those questions like, um, if he ever likes to sell his shares and stuff, but at the time it was very good season to do that move last year December. So yeah, and it. You know it was very stressful and long journey for years but I'm so happy that we came to that ending and he took like a few weeks refresh and now he's on top of it another brand by himself right now.   Bradley Sutton: Okay, so what did he scale that brand to like? what was the peak yearly sales like approximately?   Gulsen: Yeah, so by the time he started it was about four hundred dollars per month.   Bradley Sutton: Four hundred thousand dollars ?   Gulsen: Four hundred Dollars.   Bradley Sutton: Four hundred. Oh, when he started, you said yeah, okay, I was like about to say well, who is buying an amazon business that grosses $400 a month, like good grief? Okay, that makes sense now. So that was when he started, and then he scaled it to what?   Gulsen: Yeah, the time he moved out that they were at monthly six figures.   Bradley Sutton: Oh wow. So definitely a seven-figure brand, oh yeah, that is pretty cool and then and then. So now he's starting from scratch or like something similar, or, and he's already launched, or he's just in the planning stage right now.   Gulsen: From scratch it's already launched and now, um, this time we just wanted to want it to be more on like brand side. We still use, of course, amazon and we will try to start selling on Walmart as well, but now we're just trying to be so heavy on Shopify, building the brand awareness, and then, of course, the goal is the goal again, selling it. But to me, you remember my Amazon account. I was so like a Grand Bazaar Amazon account. I still have it and still is my passion to find those seasonal items.   Bradley Sutton: But you're not still. Have you been off and on selling products on that account?   Gulsen: Yes, yes.   Bradley Sutton: Oh okay, I didn't know that. Okay, cool, but only seasonal.   Gulsen: Only seasonal and I know you don't really like it when you do Amazon for patient. But that account you saw that it's such a passionate account only the products I really like to spend my time on and not really that profitable, but still nice. And I feel like I still like to spend a lot of time on Black Box trying to find products and then search them on Alibaba, even if I'm not going to invest. I think it started to be like a habit for my life. And, yeah, the last time I found something it was a toy product. I never recommend anyone to, you know, join a toy business, but this one was crazy because, like it was selling on Amazon about like $26, the price to import and everything was about 450. So now it's just, you know, um, making my mind so busy like should I really launch a toy product? But it's so competitive and, yeah, I might be needing to pick your brain about it very soon.   Bradley Sutton: Okay, I thought you were saying you already did this. I was waiting for the results. This is what you're planning. What is something you've already done in the last year or so that really was a good experience? When you just found some random product and then it was able to sell during the season. Can you give an example?   Gulsen: Yeah, I can give you an example. What's so funny is I really like to look around a lot while shopping, like actual shopping, Like I'm touring the Costco, Sam's Club, these places and like Bluetooth Beanies. I don't know if you remember them.   Bradley Sutton: It's like you have a beanie, but then there's like headphones or something inside. Oh, okay.   Gulsen: Inside the beanie there were headphones and the first time I saw them like we were shopping on Sam's Club. The first time I saw them, we were shopping on Sam's Club and Charlie, my husband, he was telling me you know what? This product will go viral. And then we sourced it and, oh my God, it was such an amazing experience because that product really went viral.   Bradley Sutton: So, you sourced it, not to piggyback on the listing, but you made your own listing a brand new. You just found it in Alibaba. So how much did you sell of that product?   Gulsen: Yeah, during Christmas time we sold close to 1,000 units   Bradley Sutton: 1,000 units at what price?   Gulsen: I believe it was about $14,000, $14,000, $15,000.   Bradley Sutton: Okay, so a nice little five-figure a month there on one product or two.   Gulsen: yeah, it was amazing but, like I said, it was seasonal and now like I don't even think anyone is going to search for Bluetooth beanie, but we were one of the first listings on amazon selling that product.   Bradley Sutton: Nice so finding products at Sam's Club in Costco. I just go there for like free samples and a dollar 50 hot dog and stuff. But now, now I know I need to start looking out for products. All right, let's switch to Michelle now. So, Michelle, you know, in the beginning at Helium 10 and the last time you were on the podcast you like, like your experience with Amazon was pretty much just interacting with Helium 10 and interacting with, interacting with our customers. But now you're not necessarily an Amazon private label seller. But tell us what you are now in that definitely has to do with the Amazon ecosystem.   Michelle: Yeah, of course you know really quick. I wanted to say how far back I've been, you know, just to give some clarity for people listening. When I first started Helium 10, my daughter was eight months. She's going to be seven years old in November. So, this just goes to show like how old I am.   Bradley Sutton: I don't need any reminders for that.   Michelle: Yeah, I was just thinking about that and I was like, oh my gosh, it's been almost six going on seven years, so that's insane.   Bradley Sutton: That's crazy, that's great. And then I remember how it was like your desk was like behind mine, so I need to check on what you're doing. I just like turn around, we're all in that little, we work there. And then I got to move to like this little, literally a closet. You know, the affiliate team office was like this little that used to be a storage closet and then it became my office.   Michelle: And then what? Six or been very exciting, and I honestly love building relationships and speaking with different people around the world. It's awesome. So now what I'm doing is I've learned and I've kind of just jumped on ships with the Amazon. Influencers program is something that you don't need to really invest money in. It's more of just investing your time and basically you are reviewing products and then when you review them, you upload them to Amazon and Amazon does all the work for you and you just earn commission off anyone that watches your video.   Bradley Sutton: How do you even find out about that people are doing that, because I think nowadays some more and more people know about it, but like I didn't really know about it until somebody like I don't know maybe I saw a video on it or something but how do you even know that this was something that people do?   Michelle: Yeah, it's actually really funny. So, I was just searching, looking for new influence affiliates to join Helium 10 and you know, the algorithm just picks up and all of a sudden, you're seeing like people selling you courses and it's like, hey, the Amazon review program. And I was like, what is this? So, I dived into it and I just started following and I was like you know what? I've never been one to just like jump and, you know, spend a lot of money on products, but this seems like something I can do. And I did it kind of just more of like as a test and, um, it was, yeah, I got like approved right away and then I did the second approval and I got approved in that and now it's just putting videos up on Amazon and the more videos you put there, the more commission you make. And you know it really just depends on the type of video you make as well, of course, the quality and everything. But it's really fun and I feel like for me being like a really busy full-time mom um, and you know, working full-time this is something that I can do, that I don't have to just like run a business. It's just more of yeah fun on the side.   Bradley Sutton: yeah, like even us, you know amazon sellers, like we all have families, like this is something, and maybe your daughter is a little bit too young still, but you know this is something, is something that you know you got like teenagers or even, um, you know, maybe preteens a little bit. You could almost have them like make some of these uh videos and it's like something super simple. Obviously, you know adult needs to set it all up, but it's not like rocket science where you have to be a pro influencer. Uh, you know, in order to make these review videos, a lot of them are just like kind of like unboxing and how you're using it right.   Michelle: Yeah, you know what Funny thing is? My daughter got her first brand deal.   Bradley Sutton: Oh well, okay. Well, maybe she is old enough, I guess. Okay, my bad.   Michelle: Yeah, so there's. There's Amazon sellers looking for people to or, you know, other people to review their product. And one was a mom who just came out with a kid's face wash and she was like hey, I saw your daughter on Instagram. I would love for her to review my product. My daughter is all about skincare because of YouTube and she absolutely loved it. She did it and I just got another email yesterday from another seller who saw her video on that listing asking if they can review her skincare product now and I'm like wait, she's starting to get all these deals, she's only six.   Bradley Sutton: Wow.   Michelle: It is really cool. Of course, you know you need to be in it as a parent, but it is really fun and I've seen a lot of married couples, even like a husband will have his own and then the wife has her own and they just capitalize on that extra income.   Bradley Sutton: Interesting. Now, what's the? I mean, there's a difference, necessarily, between like, almost anybody can sign up to be an Amazon affiliate but then to be an Amazon influencer. Do they still require that you have some kind of social media account that has X number of followers? And then, if so, like what is that requirement?   Michelle: Yeah, so that's a great question. So many people get confused between the Amazon Associates program and that is basically offsite commission. You have to have a website; you get the affiliate link and then you basically drive traffic from your website to Amazon with the Amazon reviewers' program. That's onsite commission and you necessarily don't need a huge following on social media. You just need to have good engagement for the first two steps. So as long as you get engagement, you build your, your engagement, you sign up and you get approved, you don't even need to worry about that social platform anymore. It's just like building up that reviewer's videos and then just letting Amazon do that for you.   Bradley Sutton: Okay, excellent, excellent. Now, um, what was the very first video that you did Like? What was it for? Do you remember what it was?   Michelle: Yeah, so, amazon. In order for you to get approved for the second step you actually need very first video that you did like what was it for? Do you remember what it was? Yeah, so amazon. In order for you to get approved for the second step, you actually need to submit three product review videos. So, it's not only one, it's three. So, I did a dog uh feeder, so it's basically a dog bowl but like it has a puzzle inside for your dogs, um, to slow their feeding. And then then I did a Spanish book, and then I did a I don't want to say dupe, but I did a smart watch that you know looks like a brand name like Apple, and that actually got approval. So that got me three. That got my first three approvals for the Amazon reviewers' program.   Bradley Sutton: Your style of doing Amazon business, like why do you think this is kind of good? Like it's obviously not for the kind of person who's like trying to build up a brand and, you know, be able to exit like your husband did with his brand. But what kind of person is what your model is of? Like these seasonal products in here or there? Like are you even putting it on a brand registry or you're just doing generic brands? Or how are you doing these listings?   Gulsen: No, no brand. How are you doing these listings? No brand registry. And I think that what I'm doing is great for who is working like typical 9 to 5 that would like to get extra site income. And also, like you know, before working at Helium 10, I did supply chain my entire life, so I'm so close to those sourcing agencies or the places in like. I'm originally from Turkey. I know a lot of Turkish manufacturers. Plus, I have very good experience in Far East so it's so easy for me to source products. So, I feel like it is mixed for me. If you really like sourcing trying to find new people on the manufacturing end or sourcing end and if it's giving you pleasure, then that's great because then the money comes itself. But it's not something that you can quit working on your corporate and rely on those seasonal items.   Bradley Sutton: now, for example, that, what do you say? beanie, Bluetooth, Bluetooth, beanie, whatever it's called? Um, you know, you, you grossed I don't know fifteen thousand dollars, twenty thousand dollars or whatever from it. Yeah, was that all one order from the manufacturer and you only did one? And then, if so, like what was that initial investment? Like landed to amazon, like the price of the products and then the importation, and landed to Amazon, like, how much did you invest in that project?   Gulsen: It was like we created two orders the first order, it's like it was gone like in the very first month and a half, and then, since we foresee it, we had to place another order and we did the same quantity and I think we invested about maybe $7,000 in total.   Bradley Sutton: In the first order and both orders together.   Gulsen: The first order, like both orders together, could be around 14K, but it includes everything. Everything like it's includes about two thousand of those Bluetooth beanies and the import and the shipping. So, we had to act quick so we couldn't really do a vessel.   Bradley Sutton: Wait, the first order was 2,000 units   Gulsen: It was 1,000 and 1,000.   Bradley Sutton: Okay so you have, you sold all of them?   Gulsen: yeah, so the first.   Bradley Sutton: I thought you only sold 1000 units. You actually sold 2000 units.   Gulsen: it was during Christmas time. We sold about 1000 and that's why we were so high and excited. We ordered the second order and then those um the remainders. I think we have left about like 300 pieces left and then we started to get orders, maybe once a week and like bi-weekly.   Bradley Sutton: No, not so yeah you sold way more than like 20. You know like we're talking more like 20, 30 000, so seven thousand dollars to invest. And then are you just doing the regular private label ways to get on page one like, hey, I'm gonna run some PPC and try, I mean like that's how you did it.   Gulsen: Yeah, we were so lucky because we were one of the first listings, as I said, and organic, we were already on the page one for that Bluetooth beanie. But then of course you know how it goes Competition comes so crucially and we had to run PPC but still it wasn't that competitive because we were there at the beginning and we sent all inventory to FBA but then we had to take some inventory back and started to sell the rest as FBM.   Bradley Sutton: You should see me about those. I'll start shipping them for you. You can pay my kids to do that. Okay, so then I mean, that's fascinating. I don't know how I didn't know all of this stuff that you're doing. Yeah, you know what.   Gulsen: Funny enough. Actually, it's not about me, but again, like with my husband. Do you remember those fidget spinners?   Bradley Sutton: Yes, yes.   Gulsen: Yeah, he was also like one of the first listings with those fidget spinners on Amazon. Like I think he has a good sense of finding what will come to be a buy.   Bradley Sutton: Well, how did you and he validate that thing? Because you know like it's different when you're trying to be the first kind of like we were kind of like the first coffin shelf. You know there's not like a bunch of data where it's like oh, I know all the main competitors and what they're ranking for and stuff. So, what did you guys use to validate? Like, did you buy some from Costco and just put it up and do a test listing to see how it goes? Or how did you have the con? I mean, cause $7,000 is still $7,000. You know that's a lot of money. Like you got to have some kind of confidence that you're going to be successful. So, if you couldn't see other beanie uh, Bluetooth, Bluetooth beanies, people having confidence what numbers or what were you looking at that made you go ahead and pull the trigger on that order?   Gulsen: Yeah, the thing is I can source those products so quickly because of my connections. So, with that fidget spinner we didn't really do any drop shipping. We just found the manufacturer and I still doubt it was the manufacturer. I still feel like we were talking to a trader at that time. But we got the products in like in 10 days when we decided to go.   Bradley Sutton: Oh, no, the beanie, though that's the one I'm wondering. Yeah, the beanie, you saw it in Sam's Club. It's not like hey, let me go to. Oh, there's a nice product Sam's Club, let me go ahead and drop $7,000. I'm sure you must have done some kind of research or something to take a look.   Gulsen: Yeah, so, uh, what was really very surprising to me when you go to Alibaba or like, let's say, DHgate, and search for some products, you would see tons of manufacturer putting the same picture of the product and selling them. That time, when we check for the Bluetooth beanies, we only sold two, two manufacturers on Alibaba and at that time I was like wow, like this is amazing, because the manufacturers are not just saturating the market. Yes, so it was one of the insights for me. And the second one was it was I believe it was right before the Halloween and you know, like during Christmas times. It's amazing product that you can put in those stockings and not very expensive, but still, it would make your grandchildren so happy to have a gadget like that. It's great if you're like, if you do ski, snowboarding and stuff, you don't really worry about you. So, we believe in the product too.   Bradley Sutton: But was there a search volume at the time, like was anybody searching that at all in Helium 10? Or there wasn't even search volume for that keyword yet.   Gulsen: I don't remember that we saw a huge amount of search volume.   Bradley Sutton: interesting, all right. So, hey, like that's really getting ahead of the, you know, similar to like what we did with the wooden egg tray in project X, where there was nobody searching for wooden egg tray but we're like, hey, I think this is going to be a hot product. All right, that's very interesting, I like that method. Now going back to Michelle, um, let's say I start my, my um influencer account. Would you suggest the first thing to do which actually is me I've had, because, I don't know, I'm lazy, I guess, but like should is the first thing I should do is just go around my house and look at stuff that I bought from Amazon or that stuff that exists on Amazon and start making videos of those things? Is that like a good first step for somebody just getting started?   Michelle: yeah, so not a lot of people know this, but Amazon has it. Use your phone, the Amazon scanner app, and you can go around your house and scan anything and then you find stuff that are actually being sold on Amazon. And I do that. And when I first started, I did a lot of my higher ticket items. So, like my bed frame I got on that wasn't on Amazon and I checked and it was. I'm sorry I didn't get it from Amazon, but when I checked it was on Amazon and so I reviewed it. And then I reviewed like my sofa. My couch was there. I got my couch from an outlet and my couch was also on Amazon. So, I would say to focus on like your higher ticket items, but then also mix it up and do some mid-level, like $20, $30, $40, because those are what's going to give you commission. And if you start a lot of people focus on like really small items, like $10, $12, you're only going to see change. So, you want to have a mix of both and the more videos you bring in, the better. I would also say to look at your like how many influencer videos are there right? Like you don't want to review a product and there's so many review videos that you're not even going to be seen, so that's something else to look out for.   Bradley Sutton: Like what's the best opportunity? Like obvious, it's like, is it something that's selling really well, so that you know there's a lot of you know people getting on that page, and at the same time, maybe like there's not that many influencer videos on that page? Like, is that how you prioritize it? Like, let's say, you could do like 30 things and you're like, okay, how do I know which ones I should do first Because I can get the most money? Would that be what you're looking at, or is there other factors involved too?   Michelle: Yeah, so I try to see how many product listings there are. So, I'll give you an example. Like the smartwatch that I did, that was one of my like it's still actually selling really well and because there's multiple, actually there's only like 50 or 100 people buying it per month from what Amazon showed, but there's a lot of sellers that had it as well, and so I realized that people were watching my video and then they were going on to another listing and then they were like, okay, I really want to get this watch, and then they were just purchasing it. So that's one way. So, you also just want to make sure that there's demand for it, like people are buying it. Right, if you have a rug and you're going to review it and you go in and like there's bad reviews, it says from Amazon, this product is most likely going to get returned, probably not the best one you want to start with.   Bradley Sutton: My next question, uh, would be is just, you know, to give people an idea of the potential here? um, what are some success stories you've heard about, like how much money people are making? And then you, your exact example. You obviously work full-time for Helium 10, so it's not like you're just sitting in your house all day doing video I hope not, otherwise our boss might not be happy about that but you're just doing it here and there in your spare time. Since you already have a full-time job, how much are you grossing every month from this?   Michelle: Yeah, so Amazon's commission is uncapped. You can basically make as much. I just recently started, June, and I'm already about last month I made $600 and then all together it's probably about a thousand, but it hasn't even been a full three months. So, you know, with and I only have a hundred and like 60 videos on my Amazon storefront. So of course, the more videos I'm going to have, the more I'm going to be able to make. I I'm in a lot of Amazon reviewer groups and people make who've been there for like 12 months a year two years can make at least three to $6,000. So, like my goal is to put as many videos as possible and I'm trying to get to like 500 videos for Christmas, because I know that during Christmas time it's going to be really busy. So, I'm really excited to see if I can get at least up to two to three thousand dollars by Christmas in a month.   Bradley Sutton: How much time does it take you to make these videos? Because I know like they actually don't necessarily need like super crazy professional video production and seven different scenes and Steven Spielberg quality. But it's like you just use your cell phone, if I'm not mistaken, right, and then and then what program are using for like cut it up and then put some like captions, and is that basically it? So, what's the time constraint? And then, what are the tools you're using to, to, to put it all together?   Michelle: So that's a great question. Because I'm such a you know I'm busy, everything. I try not to put as much time into this and you really don't because people want to see reviews that are very authentic. They don't want to see like commercials or advertisements, they want to see real people making reviews. So, I just scan it. If I see that it's on Amazon, I will quickly get my water bottle, or if it's a product of a water bottle, quickly get it. Put my phone, place it so I can see myself in it and make a quick 30 to 45 second review video. Make sure the audio is good and I use CapCut. Capcut is free. You can also purchase it and I purchased it because you can enhance your audio, you can clean it up and you can also slice it up. So, in all, it takes me maybe like five minutes per video per product, because you get better as you go and then you just float.   Bradley Sutton: Awesome, awesome, okay, cool, I'm going to get my kids started on that then. Now let's switch gears and talk about what you guys do here, because this is another way that people can make money without having to invest too much money and that's being an affiliate. And so, let's just talk about the extreme, just to get people excited here. Some affiliates here at the company how much money are they grossing? How much money is Helium 10 paying them per month in additional things like cars and stuff like that? So just like get people excited about this subject.   Gulsen: It's really crazy, because some affiliates are making about $70,000 per month.   Bradley Sutton: From Helium 10? Okay, I might be in the wrong position here. What in the actual heck? I had no idea.   Gulsen: But it's not that, so we also pay for their cars.   Bradley Sutton: What are some cars that we're paying for people.   Gulsen: What I remember, we have like one, I believe, Tesla Model S and G-Wagon and a Mercedes, RV minibus and yeah, these are the ones.   Bradley Sutton: In addition, making tens of thousands, even up to 70,000, that okay. Now I think we have you got my attention already, like I didn't even know that we were at that level yet, and so okay. So, what about you know what? What are the ways that that that people are getting to that level? Obviously, no, we're not going to sit here and say, hey, anybody can just make $70,000 a month from Helium 10. But basically, how are they doing something like that? Either of you can answer this.   Gulsen: Yeah, it is. If you have an audience this is only what matters engaged audience you can be a very popular YouTuber, you can be running a course, you can be a great blogger, or you're just someone spreading the word about how to sell on Amazon and the software that's helping with it. Because we pay lifetime recurring commission 25% and on top of the commission we have extra rewards. I'd like Michelle to talk about them yeah.   Michelle: So I will say, some of our top affiliate, like producers, that we pay out high commission, it's because our program is so lucrative and, again, it's 25 lifetime commission. So, some of our affiliates have been here for three, four years and they're still making commission with us on top of the extra bonus program rewards that we're paying for their cars or we're paying for their restaurant dinners, like we pay for so many things. And I also want to clarify, like we don't only pay out top affiliates, like we have a bonus reward program that also pays our smaller guys, like if you're just starting out, we're actually going to update our program, so you're going to receive $500 just for bringing in 10 new subs.   Bradley Sutton: I think what you know, one thing that I want to double click on right there that you said is like the lifetime commission. So, theoretically, you know, let's say, I have this channel where I'm talking about Amazon, but, for whatever reason, I'm like you know what? YouTube shut me down. I no longer have a YouTube channel; I'm just going to stop this. But I had signed up 100 people to Helium 10. Let's just say it's the cheapest plan, so they're paying Helium 10. Those 100 people are paying Helium 10 100 times $100. Okay, all right. So hey, wait, wait, hold on, I'm going to. I'm about to do some advanced math here. So those customers are paying helium 10, $10,000 a month, but every month the affiliate is getting 25%, right? Yeah, so then that's a wait 0.25 times 10,000 is they're getting a check for $2,500 a month. But let's say, today my YouTube channel shut down and it shut down for a year, next year. Let's just say, if those hundred people are still paying Helium 10, they never even did anything, they didn't make one more video, they didn't like help these people at all. They're still getting a check for $2,500 a month, every month from now until infinity, as long as those members. So that that that's that. That that's what I think is really good about our, our system.   Bradley Sutton: Now, uh, Michelle, you know, we obviously talked about one side of the spectrum where it's big influencers or people who have this big course or big YouTube channel or something. Obviously, it's a no brainer to sign up, you know, to be an affiliate, because instantly they're probably going to start making tons of money just because they're going to be able to sign up people. But again, we're talking this episode is kind of like about making money without too much investment. What if I'm just an average Joe? Maybe I'm just an average Joe Helium 10 user out there I know Helium 10 well or I'm just listening to this podcast somehow and I don't have a YouTube channel. I don't have a big popular blog or, you know, Instagram, with a hundred thousand followers. What's a way that I can scale up? I mean, I can still be an affiliate even if I have nobody just at least get started. But how can I scale up my platform in order to start building up? How much Helium 10 is paying me?   Michelle: Yeah, so that's a really good question. I would say consistency, and that goes for everything that you do, right. If you are an average girl, like we've seen this. Like we have people sign up and they don't have like a big platform. However, like they're consistent with growing their audience, whether they you know what I decided I'm going to be a YouTuber. Now I'm going to start posting YouTube videos consistently and on top of that, I'm going to start posting Helium 10 demos, because I am a Helium 10 wizard, so why not share my knowledge? Or I'm going to start my own community on Facebook. Um, and they're consistent with growing their audience. They can eventually start growing commission, because all it takes is one person to get inspired and sign up for Helium 10 with your affiliate link and then, all of a sudden, it's three months in, you're like 10, 15, 20. And you're already, like you said, grossing like $2,500. And you haven't even done much. And you know, like I said, it's really about consistency and it's really fun, because I enjoy speaking with a lot of these smaller affiliates and encouraging them and then seeing their growth. It's insane.   Bradley Sutton: Maybe I don't even have plans for making a community, but I mean, I guess theoretically, hey, I'm in, I'm in Facebook groups or uh, I post in in in X, uh, you know, like threads about, you know, formerly Twitter and as far as Amazon, I'm on Reddit and stuff like I could just share the coupon code here and there when people talk about it, and even without either, like being an influencer, I could be making commission. I just sign up. One person sees that code. You know that maybe my Reddit post is indexed by Google and then somehow somebody lands on it and I never even touched that person or had anything to do with them. They thought they use my code. I've got that revenue for life. So that's, that's something guys out there. You know you don't have to be some big influencer. If you're just a regular Helium 10 user and you know you have friends interested in Helium 10, give them a discount. You know, get a discount code Affiliates get discount codes that other people can't get and you're helping your friend out and now you're going to you know what.   Michelle: Let me just join, for instance we just had a webinar and Riley was in it and he taught, talked all about q4 and how to you know create a good listing for q4, how to prepare. That was a webinar and now they have the opportunity to share an affiliate link with their friends or family there and who, anyone else that they know who's selling on Amazon. And if that person decides like hey, this was a really great webinar, I, I really need Helium 10 now because I want to make sure my listing is great, like, oh, now there's a coupon code attached, so just like that, just by sharing a resource and how Helium 10 can help, they can easily earn and make money with it.   Bradley Sutton: that's a good point because it's not like, oh, I need to be a Helium 10 expert or an Amazon expert. If you've got the audience, like actual evangelists like myself, Carrie, Shivali, we'll go on the channel like, hey, we'll do a video and you don't even need to bring the expertise, because we've got it and you just provide the audience. And then I wish I need to arrange something. These affiliates are making so much money and I'm the one who's doing these videos and I'm not seeing any part of this. Something doesn't feel fair there. But anyways, take advantage of it guys. Take advantage of it. I'm not getting any money, but I'll be supporting there. Gulsen. Anything else to say about our affiliate program?   Gulsen: Yeah, I think our affiliate program is offering money and also offering a bunch of information and the trends. So, we're like at Helium 10, we are not just like, hey, promote us and get the commission. We are helping a lot for our affiliates to grow. So, some real-life experiences like one of our affiliate's accounts get hacked and he was having hard time dealing with Google so we were there for him and we helped him to get his account back. Or I was on a call with one of our affiliates chief marketing officers because he was curious about the latest trends and I was giving him my two cents about what they should be else doing to boost their reach, like getting more students.   Bradley Sutton: Haven't some like giving you access to like their YouTube channel and you go in there and optimize. Like you're literally in their YouTube and fixing for them and stuff like that.   Gulsen: I didn't want to talk about that one, but yes, this happened as well. Yeah, so, like Helium 10 is the only platform where you have your dedicated account manager. We are not a platform like your account is managed by a team of VAs or you're just talking to some AI generated chat box, so it's like you work with us and you also have a marketing manager that you don't need to pay. So that's why I really find it very beneficial for our affiliates. And the other thing is we work with thousands of affiliates and we know we see what's working, and we see what used to be working before but not anymore, or what's failing. So, it's good that we have this experience without really facing the actual work. So, it's always good to share what's working with our other partners to help them grow and win together.   Bradley Sutton: So, if you guys want more information, want to sign up right away there's no sign-up charge or no entry fee or anything like that. Just go to h10.me forward, slash, crush it, crush it. Two words, but it's together, no spaces. H10.me forward, slash, crush it and sign up. If there might be a little box that says, how did you find out about this or something, make sure to say that you heard about it on the podcast. Right before I started at Helium 10, I actually had signed up to be a Helium 10 affiliate and then Michelle was like my affiliate manager and stuff. So, yeah, we've come full circle here, but I want you guys to go ahead and crush it as well on there. So that's super cool. And then remember, guys, it doesn't matter where you are in the world. You know we've got affiliates in in Pakistan and Tajikistan and Japan and Korea, and I think the only country we don't have affiliates is North Korea. So, every other country in the world we've got affiliates because you know you've got an audience everywhere there and obviously Helium 10 works in so many different countries. So, make sure to sign up, all right, guys.   Bradley Sutton: So, uh, one more note is where you know Michelle is actually going to be doing like a little mini course in helium tend to help people learn more about being an Amazon influencer, so be on the lookout for when that, uh, when that comes out, and Gulsen is going to be working on the course of Turkish cooking for Helium 10. I'm just playing, but, uh, we'll have to think of a course that you can, uh, you can make for us too. But, thank you, thank you both, so much for uh coming on here. It's great to see, uh, you know people who were there from almost day one, uh, from when I started here at Helium 10, and, and we're the, we're, we're going to be like the trio here who keeps on going to, are doing.   Michelle: Thanks, Bradley, thank you for having us.

Bex Riley (Rebecca Riley) is a professional in the field of learning and development, passionate about empowering others to achieve their goals. With an impressive background in running, she has completed multiple marathons, integrating her competitive spirit and community support into her training. Bex uses her skills to elevate others, fostering confidence and capability in both her professional and personal life.Episode Summary:In this special episode of the She Who Dares Wins podcast, host Michelle sits down with her close friend and marathon running partner, Bex Riley. They delve into their journey of training and completing the grueling Leeds Marathon, overcoming personal and physical challenges. This episode not only shares their marathon story but also dives into themes of resilience, empowerment, and the importance of community support.Through their candid conversation, Michelle and Bex explore the mental and physical demands of marathon training, particularly for women balancing work, family, and their personal health. They recount their Sunday therapy runs, the unexpected hurdles like running solo as women, and the emotional highs and lows that come with such a monumental challenge. Keywords like "marathon training," "women empowerment," "mental resilience," and "community support" are thoroughly explored, making this episode a rich resource for anyone looking to push their limits and find inner strength.Key Takeaways:The importance of having a training partner for motivation and support during marathon preparation.The unique challenges faced by women runners, including safety concerns and balancing menstruation with training.The psychological benefits of running, including mental clarity and stress relief.Incremental goal setting as a strategy to achieve seemingly impossible tasks.The significance of role models and community in empowering individuals to overcome their fears.Notable Quotes:"Sometimes you miss out on massive opportunities by not doing things because you're scared of not achieving them." - Bex Riley"The hardest bit of the marathon is not the training. It was that marathon." - Bex Riley"If I've committed to do something, I have committed to do it." - Michelle"It's really interesting because the more you talk to people and the more you listen to other people's opinions, advice, whatever it is, I think the more you can push yourselves to do this." - Bex Riley"Don't question yourself." - Bex Riley's advice to her twelve-year-old Get Your Runna Free TrialSign up link - https://join.runna.com/lKmc/partnerrefer?deep_link_sub1=SHEWHODARESWINS Sign up code (2 weeks free) - SHEWHODARESWINSPlease support the show at www.patreon.com/shewhodareswins Listen to all our 5- 10 minute exclusive bonus episodesShop merch www.shewhodareswins.com Pod10 for 10% off Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Unlock the secrets of skyrocketing your e-commerce sales with TikTok Shop! Join us as we sit down with Michelle Barnum-Smith, a leading expert on TikTok Shop, who will reveal why this platform is revolutionizing e-commerce and how you can tap into its immense potential. From unparalleled user engagement to an all-inclusive buying experience that supports brand building and data transparency, Michelle dissects the unique advantages TikTok Shop offers over traditional platforms like Amazon. Get ready to learn how full visibility of sales data and direct customer interactions can transform your business. In this episode, we explore the seamless customer journey on TikTok Shop from sparking awareness to completing a purchase all within the app. Discover how the shift from traditional influencer marketing to a collaborative affiliate model is empowering creators to drive sales through direct rewards from TikTok. We also get into TikTok's growing prominence as a search engine for younger generations and the new shopping features that make discoverability effortless. This is a golden opportunity for sellers to leverage TikTok Shop's innovative ecosystem to maximize engagement and boost sales. Prepare to be inspired by real-life success stories and practical tips for setting up your very own TikTok Shop. We cover everything from business registration and linking social accounts to optimizing your listings and content for viral success. Michelle shares invaluable insights on inventory forecasting and the ripple effect of TikTok Shop's success on other platforms like Amazon. Plus, learn the importance of adhering to community guidelines to avoid account suspensions and ensure your business thrives on TikTok Shop. Don't miss out on this comprehensive guide to navigating and conquering TikTok Shop's dynamic marketplace! In episode 578 of the Serious Sellers Podcast, Bradley and Michelle discuss: 00:00 - Exploring TikTok Shop for Sellers 02:56 - TikTok's Influence on Consumer Purchases 06:23 - Enhanced Shopping Experience on TikTok 09:32 - Maximizing Sales Through TikTok Shop 11:04 - Reviving Live Selling With TikTok Shop 16:22 - TikTok Shop Viral Success Stories 16:40 - Success Tips for TikTok Shop Setup 19:55 - Maximizing Marketing Opportunities on TikTok 25:11 - TikTok Shop Guidelines and Best Practices 26:40 - Navigating TikTok Shop Suspension Guidelines 33:48 - Effective Creator Outreach Strategy Guide ► Instagram: instagram.com/serioussellerspodcast ► Free Amazon Seller Chrome Extension: https://h10.me/extension ► Sign Up For Helium 10: https://h10.me/signup  (Use SSP10 To Save 10% For Life) ► Learn How To Sell on Amazon: https://h10.me/ft ► Watch The Podcasts On YouTube: youtube.com/@Helium10/videos Transcript Bradley Sutton: TikTok shop is one of the hottest marketplaces in 2024 to sell on. Today we're going to do a deep dive into everything you need to know to get started selling on that platform. How cool is that? Pretty cool, I think. Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Serious Sellers Podcast by Helium 10. I'm your host, Bradley Sutton, and this is the show that is our special Freedom Ticket monthly workshop, where we actually film live a training, a deep dive training, into a certain aspect of e-commerce and we put it later into Freedom Ticket so that you guys can benefit from it. But you guys here on the podcast are going to get the benefit of getting this training too. Now today's guest is going to be Michelle Barnum-Smith, who is definitely an expert in the field of TikTok shop and she's going to do a deep dive into like hey, what do you need to do to get started and what are some best practices? You know we've had some people on this podcast who sell on TikTok shop. You guys have heard them doing some crazy, crazy numbers, some of them even doing more than their Amazon business. So if you guys want to know what's involved with getting set up on this platform, this episode is going to be for you.   Kevin King: Now, Michelle I've known for quite some time, and so today she's going to be showing you why you need to be considering TikTok and talking about some of the opportunities that are there and what she's doing to help herself and her clients actually crush it. So please welcome Michelle.   Michelle: Today we've got lots of ground to cover and we're going to be talking about the TikTok shop opportunity. Just like Kevin said and Shivali said, unless you've been living under a rock, it is all the buzz, and rightly so. Some people don't realize this, but TikTok shop was born from a hashtag and the whole idea of TikTok made me buy it. This hashtag has been around for several years and it basically was like hey, I discovered this on TikTok and I went and bought it. And here I'm showing it off again because TikTok made me buy this. And essentially, TikTok shop allows businesses to showcase through engaging short videos, live streams and creator collaborations, and users can discover and purchase products directly within the app, creating a smooth and convenient shopping experience. And we're going to talk about, like, just how powerful this really is for you as brand sellers.   Michelle: So the opportunity of a TikTok shop has never been hotter. I mean, essentially, we're talking about a billion monthly users. They're on the app 17 times a day, with 83% of people saying that TikTok has influenced purchase decisions on what they're doing and what they're buying. So consumers are on TikTok specifically to be entertained. They hang out for hours. One and a half billion monthly user base spending an average of 95 minutes a day on the platform. I want you to think about that. That's like at least three episodes of your favorite show on Netflix. It's, you know, it's like people are just like scrolling, scrolling, scrolling and, um, all, all times of the day, like, like we saw in that previous stat of 17 times. You know, essentially starting the app 17 times a day, kind of crazy. Um, they offer a frictionless buying experience from creator to product page, to checkout to back to scrolling in seconds, which is one of the huge reasons why TikTok and TikTok Shop is such a powerful opportunity for sellers, right this second, so you can literally go from an organic discovery experience to a checkout experience in just seconds, and you can amplify that opportunity with some certain promotional activities that we'll talk about. So, bottom line, TikTok shop really helps build brands, not just sell products, so they have more high quality traffic, more sales and repurchases, have full visibility of data, end to end loop closing data.   Michelle: So one of the things that I love so much about TikTok shop is having previously just used TikTok to drive traffic to Amazon. So I have tried it a whole bunch and it is so frustrating because Amazon's a black hole. They don't share data back with you. So if you've ever tried to run ads, drive influencer content, even do social media like, just focus on the social media side of TikTok or Instagram or Facebook or whatever it might be. There's no data back from Amazon, even with using attribution, because Amazon attribution is 55% inaccurate to actually tell you what converted, what drove sales. It's kind of like a guess most of the time and if sales rise you're kind of like, okay, well, what contributed to that In TikTok shop? You know exactly what contributed to that sale. You know exactly what social posts drove how many sales. Which affiliate is your number one affiliate? If you're running ads, you know exactly how those ads are performing.   Michelle: It allows you to speak directly with your viewers as well, your customers, your prospects, every step along the way. It's you the face of the brand, your brand, interacting directly with customers. So most of the time, most sellers, most consumers, don't realize that there's sellers behind their brands on Amazon. They just think that they're buying a product on Amazon. That's not the case with TikTok. TikTok gives sellers opportunity to interact directly with the customer on every step of the customer journey. So there's no question who is? You know who this relationship is with and there's serious marketing opportunities, and I'm such a marketing geek. I love all of the marketing opportunities that TikTok has. Just this, just today, they released promo codes. Super excited about that. So let's talk about the full shopping journey within TikTok. Essentially, TikTok allows you to discover through shoppable content and through short videos and lives to select, basically go and learn more from about the product on the product detail page and then actually check out and buy, place orders and check out without ever leaving TikTok. So why this is so significant? As a marketer and as a seller myself, if I have, let's say, the counter to that is on Instagram and if you've ever been influenced on Instagram, you know, let me know, raise your hand, you're watching, you're watching that content and then the person is saying, oh, go to the link in my bio and you go to the link in your bio in, and it's some linktree that may or may not have been updated and that link might take them to Amazon. Take you to Amazon, where their Amazon storefront is like laid out, all for you to have to sort through just to find the product that you were interested in that caught your attention for just a second, that interrupted your entertainment experience that you were there on Instagram to experience, and now you can't even find what it was that caught your attention. You just give up in frustration.   Michelle: What I love about TikTok shop is that you can go from being entertained seeing a shoppable video, seeing something that a creator is promoting, to all the way to checkout in just seconds and back into your entertainment. That experience has very little interruption. So TikTok has several ways to checkout. Essentially, you have the opportunity to go from a shoppable video to a TikTok shop where you can see that brand's full lineup of offerings, and go to the product detail page where you can then check out. But this is not typically the shopping experience. Usually, it's you see a video. It takes you directly to the product detail page and then you just check out. These are the things and ways that you can build your brand on TikTok shop directly. So let's talk about the customer journey on TikTok versus Amazon. So previously TikTok, when it was just a social media channel, sat a little bit higher up in the customer journey. So if you guys aren't familiar, the customer journey is this idea of a funnel or this process where somebody goes from awareness to consideration, to purchase, to customer service, to going deeper in their rebuy or loyalty to that specific brand. So previously, TikTok the app, the social media side of TikTok was just in the awareness phase, the awareness and consideration phase. Just like Instagram, it was like a place of discovery, a place of entertainment, a place to maybe get educated, but it wasn't a place to purchase. That was where you would go to Amazon, and Amazon fit squarely in the consideration phase, like I need more information, I'm aware of my need already and then I'm going to purchase. So essentially, Amazon is solution solving. It's a search engine for buying. Customers are already aware of a need. They search, research and buy on Amazon.   Michelle: Buyers don't hang out on Amazon for fun or entertainment, despite Amazon's best efforts with Amazon Lives, Amazon Post, Amazon Inspire, and that's really why TikTok shop has taken over in that regard. Not necessarily like I'm not saying that Amazon's going away anytime soon. Obviously that's a huge opportunity, but TikTok shop now owns the entire customer journey, from awareness through consideration, purchase, the customer service experience, all the way to rebuy opportunities, average order value increases, um rebuy rates, all sorts of things that TikTok shop makes available to sellers to be able to do and accomplish all within the TikTok shop platform. Are you guys seeing the potential and the opportunity here? And, as a marketer, this is why I'm so passionate about it, because if you own the awareness, if you are the one creating the awareness of the need and you immediately go into a checkout scenario, you win. The checkout is not okay we're making you aware and then you're being taken to a page where you and 100 other competitors are then brought up with different options and people are overwhelmed with options. It's not like that. It's literally going from awareness to checkout to back to entertainment in a matter of seconds. So TikTok really comes down to need awareness. Their focus is on entertainment and education and their goal is to keep users on the platform with their addictive algorithms. Users are made aware of products and the purchases is done within TikTok shop with quick checkouts and then buyers are back to scrolling within seconds. So that's really kind of the crux of TikTok shop there and live selling. I don't know if you guys have seen have been on the platform yet, but live selling it really had its heyday. I feel like you know as far as US consumer behavior goes in, like the late eighties, early nineties, Saturday morning infomercials Anybody remember those?   Michelle: I know I was like, always sucked in. I was always sucked into those Um. And then there's QVC and home shopping network where, you know, basically little ladies hang out to buy kitchen kitchenware, but TikTok shop, specifically, is bringing live, selling back, and it's crazy's crazy, the amount of organic viewers you get checking out your products live, seeing what you have to offer live, you know, and it's a form of entertainment, so they're already on there to be entertained and then they get to watch you pitch whatever it is that you have. That's kind of crazy. And also creators we have this. Creators have been kind of like put up on this pedestal as influencers, right, and this kind of title and with that has come a little bit of a combative nature. When it comes to working with brands, right, how many of you have worked with an influencer where you've reached out to them, you've tried to recruit them and they're charging like a couple hundred dollars of post to like two thousand dollars a post, five thousand dollars a post for the honor to get to work with them. Anybody experience that. And then you're like, um, what did I get from that? I got a post. Did it do anything, right? So the awesome, the awesome thing with working with creators now is that they essentially become affiliates because TikTok is rewarding them for sales that they make through the platform. So creators are now motivated to work with brands and to push products and seek out opportunities. It's no longer just like oh well, I'm a creator and so my creative needs are above your needs as a brand. Now they're willing to be more collaborative with brands in and focusing on content that converts and that drives sales, because, at the end of the day, they want to make money right and we all want to make money, and so it makes it more of a win-win relationship. So that's one of my favorite things about this kind of shift is it goes from the honor of working with a creator and an influencer to now like okay, we're affiliates and we're in this together.   Michelle: So there's kind of four native ways to discover and buy on TikTok. There's the browse area, which is shoppable videos. That's what you would generally see if you're just scrolling through TikTok. You're going to have some content that is just entertainment content. You're going to have content that's educational and informative and that sync to and our shoppable videos, basically, and shop pages. That's where you know brands show up with their brand presence, um, live shopping, like we discussed, and the shop tab. So that's the new kind of search functionality within TikTok. That's all about finding and discovery and searching for solutions. It's kind of crazy, but TikTok has now become a search engine for a certain demographic. Anybody who's less than 25 years old, instead of going to Google with their questions first, they're going to TikTok with their questions first, and it used to be that videos were what was served first in the search results and now it's product. Are you picking up? What I'm putting down? Like this is this is a significant opportunity. This is such a crazy shift and I will say that every almost like 80 to 90% of the in TikTok shop contacts that I have were recently recruited from Amazon. Like Amazon employees are moving over to TikTok shop just like clawing their way over here. So it's very soon there's gonna be some aspects that are native to Amazon that we'll start seeing show up in TikTok shop, especially this kind of search portion, the shop tab, and then the buying experience, like we've talked about, is very seamless, from the product page to the checkout page. You literally can like sync your Apple Pay with TikTok shop, click the side of your phone gosh and be back to doom scrolling in seconds, if I haven't, you know, beat that into you enough.   Michelle: But let's talk about this idea and this question is TikTok shop just a distraction for you as sellers? I hear this kind of objection a lot, and from really big sellers, and so I'm a little surprised. I'm always a little surprised because, like Kevin said, I think that if you have an opportunity to make money, are you going to say no to that opportunity, especially when it's relatively zero to low cost to get started? You already have inventory. You just bring it over to TikTok. So let's talk about just some case studies really quick. Every time I talk to an Amazon seller who is looking to expand off Amazon or diversify their revenue off Amazon, they're usually happy with like, hey, if I can get 5% of my Amazon sales off Amazon, like my Shopify site or Walmart or Etsy or something, I would be happy if just 5%. So here we have a few sellers and I'm just going to cruise through here. This brand got serious about TikTok shop beginning of April and year to date, they are 8% of their Amazon sales on TikTok shop. This brand launched in September of 2023 with TikTok shop. They're one of my brands and we immediately went viral. Immediately, like the bestseller that we had became a bestseller on TikTok shop and then, as we got to know our audience a lot better and affiliates a lot better, launching products on TikTok shop with them, we saw halo effect on Amazon. Every single time that we launched a new product on TikTok shop it would go viral. It would go viral on Amazon as well. Rank would skyrocket and along with sales. So their year to date revenue is 11%.   Michelle: Our biggest struggle with this brand is every time we go viral. Like it's really hard to forecast inventory for going viral. So we keep running into like our bestsellers going out of stock because they just take off. They just take off, so that I guess that is like one of the sides of TikTok shop that is a warning is that your shop could go viral and with your inventory. This seller I did a big training in Cancun back in February and in and around TikTok shop this seller was doing two sales a day before my training and after that, um, 180 sales in the week following. So I was a little proud of that. And then subsequently, uh, we've been working together and now their brands, their, uh, they have 15% of their total brand revenue, uh, of their Amazon revenue they're making on TikTok shop. I'm not going to talk a lot about these brands, because these brands are just like killing it. They're 16% of Amazon sales for this brand. This brand, gosh, they're just like. I just met with their category manager last week, their new category manager. They're number one in their category on TikTok shop, all of TikTok shop, and their year to date is 17% of their Amazon sales. So I guess you have to ask yourself, like, is it worth getting started? Like, yes, I think the answer is obvious, right, like I'm not doing a sales pitch here guys. I don't like this is you already have the inventory, right? You're already selling on Amazon. It's not too much more difficult to extend, uh, what you're doing and get started with that same inventory on TikTok shop as well. So, but there's some nuances to it and I want to talk about those nuances. So there are some keys that are necessary to a successful setup on TikTok shop. So this is where we're getting a little bit down into some specifics. On setup, I am not walking you through step-by-step a setup step-by-step at this point. This is not necessarily how to. This is more of kind of like lessons learned from setting up over 30 brands personally on TikTok shop and some of the nuances, some of the troubleshooting, some of the kind of like things to avoid, basically from a high level perspective.   Michelle: So this is kind of my setup checklist to be successful, this is what. These are all the things that you have to do one time during a setup. You need to get through your business registration. You need to complete that. You need to link a TikTok social account that is US based based with your TikTok shop seller account that is US based. You need to create or connect a TikTok ads manager to that account ads manager account to your TikTok shop account. You need to get your shipping set up and your listing set up and your content optimized for TikTok shop. You need to import available reviews, meaning, if you have like and this is all legal TikTok shop owns well, TikTok is owned by a company called ByteDance and ByteDance owns lots of different tech companies. One included is the main tool that's used for importing reviews. So if you have a Shopify site or another website with reviews on it, then you can bring those reviews over. If you don't, you can import reviews from Amazon to your website and then import those reviews from Amazon. It's a little bit of a process. It's a process, but you only have to do that once. To help you build up, to start the process of building your review presence, you need to select and implement promotions for your listings, such as pre-shipping with qualifications, product discounts, flash sales. Now the new promo codes that are released, and for select accounts, if you qualify, there's now a customer marketing whole section where you can go back and offer, you know, present offers in app. So showing up in the customer's TikTok inbox, basically like they already bought from you once, or, if they're a potential client, you can get directly inside of TikTok users' inboxes with your offers. My marketing heart, it just loves this from an opportunity perspective and we can actually measure how many sales converted from those messages. I love email marketing, I love SMS marketing, I love all of that, but sometimes we just can't close all the loops. And when we're talking native platforms and the marketing opportunities that are native to that platform, we're able to see all those loops close. When it's when we're talking native platforms and the marketing opportunities that are native to that platform, we're able to see all those loops closed and the associated data with that. So we know what further to invest in, what's working, what's not working, and then, of course, they're the final step in success. A successful setup is making sure that you have an affiliate plan set up for affiliates creators to find your products and to start promoting them and to make sure free samples are available. We'll show that here in a second.   Michelle: Okay, the second thing that you need to make sure that you do is to review the prohibited products list. So just because you can sell something on Amazon and Shopify doesn't mean you can sell it on TikTok shop. And this is probably like the number one thing that I see sellers screw up on, um, that they just like rush to get all of their products on TikTok shop and all of a sudden uh, they didn't ever check prohibited products and all of a sudden their account gets deactivated. Um, because they're promoting products or promoting it in such a way that's against, that's either prohibited products or against community guidelines in how you talk about it. So the most suspensions and account deactivations could be avoided by checking this first. So essentially, just, I mean you could even just search for it TikTok shop prohibited products policy and go on there or also look at their restricted categories on there as well to see is my product a prohibited product? I've been surprised how many products are not allowed on TikTok shop that are allowed on Amazon and, of course, on Shopify. You can sell whatever the heck you want to. So it's definitely one of those things that just because you can sell it somewhere doesn't mean you can sell it on TikTok shop.   Michelle: And this is just from a having been through it so many times. Business registration is not what it used to be. In September, I was able to get just like a ton of brands on TikTok shop with very little effort. Now there's a few more steps. Now there's a few things that kind of slow people down. It's amazing to me how many sellers just like give up. They just roll over and they're just like oh no, I can't get it to work. And I'm like guys, you are Amazon sellers, it is selling on Amazon is not an easy thing. Why are we giving up so easily? Have some like, have some resilience here. Also, TikTok shop like says oh, your account setup failed. I wish they would use different language, because sometimes it's not true failure and sometimes it's like they're just um, you get to a certain place in the process and then the system is moving you forward, but it needs more information, like you need to submit additional documents or you need to submit them in a certain way, and so it says failure, but really it just means like you need to go add more, add more documentation or whatever it is that they're actually asking for. So my advice to you is just keep pushing forward, keep pushing through that. It is worth it in the end. And just as a little like hack is any requested documentation, even if it says that they accept PDFs and PNGs, only submit them as JPEGs. Like their system, their bots read JPEGs and more often than not they don't read PDFs. So just, even if it says it'll accept a PDF, just submit it as a JPEG. Okay, cause it will help you. And especially if you're talking to support, support. It's so crazy because support can't see submitted PDFs or PNGs, but it can see submitted JPEGs. Does that make sense? So that's a little, a little note for you to take and make sure that you're doing Okay.   Michelle: This is relatively new and this has to be. This is around community guidelines. Community guidelines were updated mid last month and essentially it's just saying hey, this is the way that we behave on our platform. So there's, they become a lot more strict about what creators as well as sellers can and can't say on their product. You know, on the platform and that includes your listings and what you say about your products, especially, um, you know if something has an effect on weight or weight loss, physical performance or physiological effects or changes. So in this example, I had a seller reach out to me and they're like I don't know what I did wrong, I don't know why this account is frozen, or this product is frozen, I don't know what's wrong with it. And all I had to do was read through the title to see what the issue was. They're essentially saying this eliminates snoring and enhances facial structure and post-workout recovery claim, claim, claim, claim, claim, like you're physiological effects, physical performance, eliminate snoring. You can't say that on Amazon had. Like how can you say that? Like you can't say that on TikTok shop either? Um, and if you have any product in and around weight loss, I'm not saying it's not possible to sell on TikTok shop, it absolutely is. But how you talk about it is really critical. You cannot say weight loss, you cannot say metabolism, fat burning oh my gosh. I had another brand that was just like beside themselves. They were so like offended that TikTok shop suspended their product, their you know key seller, and I was looking through their account. It was like weight loss, metabolism, dah, dah, dah. And I'm like you can't say those things. You. You failed TikTok, you know like. You showed up like, oh well, we can sell it on Shopify. Yes, you can sell it on Shopify, because on Shopify you can say whatever the heck you want about your product. There's nobody policing what you can and can't say on your Shopify site. But this is their market and so they get to say what you can and can't say. And it's not just what you say in the text, in your title, in your bullet points, it's also what you say in the images, on the products themselves as well. So if you have packaging that you're showing and it's making claims. You got to scrub that. You got to like, get rid of it if you have infographics. So that's why I say you're not just pulling over everything that you've created for your Amazon listing or your Shopify listing. You got to be really careful in what you're bringing over and being aware of these community guidelines and what you can and can't say. These are the main ones. It's worth looking at, it's worth reading through and I do talk about that extensively in my course where I detail and outline it, but these are the top ones.   Michelle: Okay, focus on your bestsellers. I often see that the second somebody gets started on TikTok shop, they bring their whole category, their whole catalog of offerings over at once and I really advise you to just test the opportunity and to learn the platform and which of your products is the best opportunity first. So too many products are a distraction to affiliates and your ops team. So, like in this example, this brand brought over gosh all of their products and anytime that they were doing creator outreach they basically all of their creator and targeted plans was just like hey, here's everything that we sell and that's a lot, that's too much. So instead we shifted their focus to okay, what's your best seller on Amazon, what's the one with the best reviews, the strongest call to action, the most obvious for how it helps a consumer? And they're like, okay, this one, their free sample request took off, the affiliate performance took off, their sales took off. So just don't flood. It's a distraction for your team. It's a distraction when you start to reach out to affiliates, so just focus on your best sellers first. Now hear me out. This is probably the biggest warning that I have for you. Second to prohibited products okay, so this is probably the biggest area that I want you to be really careful with. And don't use the shortcuts, okay. So oftentimes I see that sellers are you're on Amazon, you're on Shopify and there are apps available within TikTok shop where you can just sync your Shopify account or sync your Amazon account and sync over your listings. So all of your listing content immediately gets imported into TikTok shop, and I have seen so many issues with this. Like I've said so many times, there's things that you're saying on your listings that you can't say in a TikTok shop, and what happens, guys, is that your listings are not reviewed by human beings, right, they're reviewed by bots, and what I have seen happen so many times is that people have seen those listings and they bring over their entire catalog, like we just talked about, and they're making claims or bringing over prohibited products or something like that that they didn't know.   Michelle: I didn't know and immediately they get account violations and account violations and they get a million account violations and then their account gets suspended because there's a limit to your account violations that you can receive, and then you lose your account, your account gets deactivated and it's over before you begin. So that's an extreme example, but I have seen that too many times to count what also happens, especially in the case of Shopify. For example, if you're syncing your listings, let's say you want to make a change to your TikTok shop listing, like your price or your title or something like that, because your listings are synced with these apps. You can't do that because Shopify and the Shopify listing owns the TikTok listing, so you have to go and make the change on Shopify If you want to make that change, show up on TikTok. You see how that's a problem, right? So and it's not an easy fix, it's not, it's not just like a quick separation, um, because I have a seller, like I've talked about. He's number one in his category and he set this up, his like. When he first got set up, an account manager told him to do this and they didn't know. These account managers have no clue, they really don't, um, and so he is dealing with this issue. If he were to try to separate at this point, he would have to create a new ASIN, for lack of a better term. A new listing for one of his best sellers and one of the big areas of social proof on TikTok shop is to see how many people have purchased the product. He would lose all of that history on that listing that now has like a hundred thousand purchases. So, yeah, it's, it's like a serious deal. So please don't do that. If you're wanting any kind of true shortcut, use the bulk uploading options. This is new the import product upload accelerator. Go this route if you're looking for shortcuts. But, like I said, I really do want you to like set up your listings manually first, at least the first couple, so you understand what TikTok is really looking for, so you can then go and add more products in the future.   Michelle: Offer free shipping. Oh, my goodness, we're running out of time, guys, we'll send you these slides. Basically, bottom line, you set up the free shipping opportunities within the promotions tab and not when you're setting up your shipping templates and your shipping solutions. So it's a promotion and you can apply all sorts of qualifications to qualify for free shipping and fulfilled by TikTok is now a thing, and they're gonna start pushing this really, really hard. So start with your Amazon inventory, start selling via Amazon MCF syncing with TikTok shop. Once you've proven the opportunity for your brand, immediately apply for FBT as soon as you set up your TikTok shop account so that when you prove like, hey, is this an opportunity for me, cause MCF is expensive, you want to get that inventory into FBT and start taking advantage of the opportunities and like super cheap pricing that they have for fulfillment over there. Okay, I'm going to cruise through this, but, just like I showed you, there's kind of like the setup checklist and then there's the ongoing success checklist. This is what you need to do ongoing, daily, weekly, monthly to be able to make sales on TikTok shop. Really, what it comes down to is working with creators, making sure you have your free samples turned on. I have my three S's to targeted outreach, which is search, sort and then save. And just a warning if you are using bots or planning to use bots, that gosh. They've now put regulations in place where new sellers are limited and restricted on how many people they can reach out to because of these messaging bots that are out there. So I really recommend focusing on target collaborations versus and reaching out to creators that way, versus messaging and spamming methods. So this is my search and sort and save method. Essentially, you're under the find creator tab and you're searching via relevant search terms for your brand or your category. You're sorting I like to sort by GMB, and if they're fast growing that's even better, because then they're hungry, they're starting to see success, but they're not so successful yet that they you can't get the time of day with them. And then you hit the little save button over here and then when you go to target collaboration up here, you can import your saved folks I recommend at least 50 per day that you're reaching out to via this message.   Kevin King: Thanks everybody for showing up today. We'll be back again next month to do this again on a whole new topic. Remember there's a replay of this, if you missed part of it, in Freedom Ticket inside the Helium 10. So if you're a member of Helium 10 at any level, there's a little button somewhere up around the top in the education section or resources section that says Freedom Ticket. You'll be able to find this recording in a few weeks in there, added as a permanent addition to the Freedom Ticket. So thanks everybody for coming today and thanks again, Michelle.   Michelle: Thank you, bye, guys.

Dr. Angela Thyer and Judy Simon discuss their book 'Getting to Baby' and the importance of nutrition and lifestyle in fertility. They share their backgrounds and how they came together to help women improve their nutrition and health for better fertility outcomes. The book covers the connection between food and fertility, the importance of whole foods, debunking misconceptions about diet and fertility, and the benefits of intuitive eating and cooking. They emphasize the need for diversity in food choices and the impact of processed foods on fertility. The book also includes practical tips and recipes to support a healthy pregnancy journey. The conversation covers topics such as the importance of breakfast and meal timing, the impact of nutrition on fertility, the role of integrative medicine in fertility treatment, and the power of lifestyle choices in influencing fertility outcomes. The guests emphasize the importance of combining foods and the role of vegetables in supporting digestion and overall health. They also discuss the impact of stress, sleep, and epigenetics on fertility. The conversation highlights the need for a multidisciplinary approach to fertility treatment and the importance of finding a supportive healthcare team.   Takeaways Nutrition and lifestyle play a crucial role in fertility and improving fertility outcomes. Eating whole foods, including a variety of fruits, vegetables, plant-based proteins, and whole grains, is important for fertility. There are many misconceptions about diet and fertility, such as the need to cut out carbs or follow specific diets. It's important to focus on nourishing the body with whole foods. Intuitive eating and cooking skills are valuable in creating a healthy and sustainable approach to nutrition. Diversity in food choices is essential for optimal fertility and overall health. Processed foods can negatively impact fertility, and it's important to prioritize whole foods. The book provides practical tips, recipes, and a six-week blueprint to support a healthy pregnancy journey. Breakfast is an important meal for fertility and overall health. It is best to have a substantial breakfast with protein, fiber, and vegetables. Meal timing is crucial, and it is recommended to have more calories earlier in the day and fewer at night. Combining foods, especially vegetables, can support digestion and nutrient absorption. Stress, sleep, and lifestyle choices have a significant impact on fertility outcomes. Epigenetics plays a role in fertility, and lifestyle choices can influence gene expression. A multidisciplinary approach to fertility treatment, including integrative medicine, can provide comprehensive support. Finding a supportive healthcare team is essential for navigating the fertility journey.   Guest Bio: Judy Simon Judy Simon, MS, RDN, CD, CHES is an award winning registered dietitian nutritionist who specializes in reproductive health. She is the founder of Mind Body Nutrition, PLLC and a clinical instructor at the University of Washington. Judy's expertise includes fertility, PCOS, eating disorders, weight inclusive medicine and reproductive health.  Judy has held leadership roles in the American Society of Reproductive Medicine Nutrition Special Interest Group and is a Fellow of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics.  Judy integrates mindfulness, intuitive eating, eating competence, while taking a non-judgmental, inclusive down approach to help people have healthier, more fertile lives.  Judy is the co-founder of Food For Fertility program and co-author of the upcoming (April, 2024) book Getting to Baby A Food-first Fertility Plan to Improve Your Odds and Shorten Your Time to Pregnancy, Ben Bella Publisher   Guest Bio: Angela Thyer Angela Thyer, MD is board certified in Reproductive Endocrinology and Infertility, Ob/Gyn and Lifestyle Medicine. She is a founding partner of Seattle Reproductive Medicine. Dr. Thyer completed her undergraduate education at Duke University, medical school at the University of Cincinnati College of Medicine, residency at Oregon Health and Science University, and fellowship at the University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio. She completed The Culinary Coaching program through the Institute of Lifestyle Medicine in 2020 and became a certified plant-based chef through Rouxbe in 2022. She and Judy Simon, MS, RDN created the Food for Fertility program and have co-authored a book coming out in 2024, Getting to Baby: A Food-First Fertility Plan to Improve Your Odds and Shorten Your Time to Pregnancy which highlights the best foods to optimize fertility.   Website & Social media links (Facebook, instagram, twitter)   Instagram: @angelathyermd Website: angelathyermd.com     For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   Click here to find out how to get the first chapter of "The Way of Fertility" for free.   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/         Transcript:   Michelle: So Angela and Judy, welcome. Angela: Thank you so much. We're excited to be here, Michelle. Michelle: So I'd love for you guys to give a background first. , I'm very excited to be talking about your new book, Getting to Baby. I would love for you first to share your background so people can know more about you and what got you to doing this type of work. Angela: Okay. Sure. I'm a reproductive endocrinologist and infertility specialist. So first I trained in OBGYN and then specialized in reproductive endocrine and infertility. And then I got board certified in lifestyle medicine. So, which is a more holistic kind of way to look at all healthcare, more of a preventive lens of like, how can we look at lifestyle measures to, you know, really help people in all phases of their life. Angela: And I've always been interested in food, nutrition, exercise. And so over the years, it just became a bigger and[00:01:00] bigger part of my practice. And I've always been interested in obviously hormones, but metabolism and Judy and I started working together at the university of Washington. And we found we had this common interest in really helping women, you know, work together to improve their nutrition and health, which subsequently leads to improvement in their fertility. Michelle: Oh, totally. Judy: And I'm a registered dietitian, as Angela mentioned, and my master's is in community health education. And I sort of went through traditional training, and when I came back and re entered, you know, medicine, gosh, about 20 ish years ago, all of a sudden, PCOS and all these things that I had never really learned about just came front and forward. Judy: And so I was fortunate to connect up with Angela and really do the deep dive into, Hey, what do we know about insulin resistance? How is this affecting fertility? And these were things that traditionally I hadn't been taught. [00:02:00]So really, I think we kind of joined each other's worlds. You know, I joined American Society of Reproductive Medicine and, you know, joined all the fertility docs. Judy: And You know, Angela would come to the nutrition conferences. So we did a lot of cross pollination and from that we went off and both started into private practices and she'd refer these amazing patients and we decided, wow, we're seeing them one at a time. Wouldn't it just be the coolest thing if we could start classes? Judy: So about 12 ish years ago, we started the food for fertility classes where we brought women in who were trying to conceive. Many of them had PCOS, endometriosis. unexplained, lots of different diagnosis. And that's who we brought the food and the people and the lifestyle into the classroom, which is really why we wrote the book. Judy: It's kind of, we took all our years of experience, science and knowledge and said, let's make it accessible to more people. Michelle: That's awesome. And so [00:03:00] talk about the book. What's in the book? And obviously it's for people trying to conceive, getting to baby. What were the top things?  Angela: Yeah. Well, we, we started off by, you know, kind of, we always want people to understand the whys, you know, why this, why that what's the connection, what's the underlying biology and physiology? And then what evidence do we know? A lot of nutritional studies about fertility or observational studies, like they'll a population will be observed and they'll say, okay, people who ate these kinds of diets or these kinds of foods had higher fertility and more successful outcomes than people who ate this kind of diet. Angela: So, you know, we, we want to, wanted to present all that information. So people kind of have background and good knowledge and can kind of say, oh, okay, well. Maybe that would be a good idea for me. You know, it's not, it's, it's a broad spectrum of what, you know, a good diet could look like. It's not just one thing. Angela: Obviously [00:04:00] mainly plant forward. Cause I think we all need to eat more fruits and vegetables and plant based foods. But there is room, you know, for some animal foods too, especially things like fish and whole fat dairy, which have shown to increase some fertility benefits. So, you know, we kind of go through all the food groups and talk about what's, what we, where we have evidence, what's good, what's not so good and what vitamins and minerals and nutrients they're adding. Angela: And then, you know, some of the biggest things that we're like, if you want to incorporate this, it's a really, it's a how to. Right. So we wanted to make it like accessible in this sense that anybody at home could be like, Oh, okay. I, gosh, I just want to add one little thing this week. What would I add? What can, what's my takeaway? Angela: What's my smart goal? So people can kind of set their own goals and try to move forward with that, making a little progress at a time. And then the greatest thing I think is sharing stories from our patients who are just fabulous[00:05:00] women who've been on their own journey. And we had so many stories, we couldn't even share them all in the book. Angela: But kind of telling these journeys that sometimes took months, sometimes took years and how they were able to incorporate changes and see changes in themselves. and feel increased energy and then kind of have improved fertility. Maybe if they had a partner, you know, their partner's health was also improving at the same time. Angela: And so many of them were successful either With natural conception, or if they were infertility treatments, having better success in those treatments and making better quality embryos that we were like, wow, you know, that's really what's in the book. So as much as we could share and keep it accessible and reasonable in length. Angela: That's, that's what the book's about. Michelle: I found it very user friendly and I really enjoyed the image of the plate and how half of it was greens, which is great because I do believe that it's so important to get the greens. And there's so many nutrients that you can get[00:06:00] from that. And you talked about some misconceptions too, like on treating PCOS and like common misconceptions on what to eat for fertility. Michelle: So I'd love to touch upon that. Judy: Yeah, well, one of the things that we tried to bring out in the book is when we first started doing our classes, a lot of the reasons women would be referred to us as we'll just go lose weight. So nothing, you know, focusing on their health and we're like, Oh no, no, no, this is not a weight loss class. Judy: This is totally about how to nourish yourself. And actually. Take away the shame and guilt in, you know, whatever size body you have being able to get the benefits of the nutrition and the lifestyle. Right? So, for example there's a lot of people that would come in with a whole list of foods that they thought they shouldn't eat because somebody told them that. Judy: And we're like, well, are you allergic to them? No. Well, okay, you know, here's a safe And that's what we tried to do in the [00:07:00] book. Like showing in all these different, you know, sure, maybe you can't tolerate dairy. Here's a sub, here's something else you can, you can place out so that everybody would feel included, that anybody could be in the classes, read the book and really get the benefit out of it. Judy: So when, when you talk about myths, probably the biggest one is, you know so many women are told cut out carbs. Cut out carbs and we're like, Oh no. Well, what's in whole grains and ancient grains. We know those inositols we hear about in PCOS. Guess where they come from? White beans, buckwheat. So we're saying where can you get these ancient grains are just so filled with minerals and also really showing that looking at the quality of carbs that you're choosing most of the time is actually going to be beneficial. Judy: And this is kind of relief for women to hear like, I don't have to starve myself. I get to eat and try new things. Michelle: Yeah. That's such a good point. And also, cause a [00:08:00] lot of times when people have carbs, it's simple carbs or juices where you're taking basically, even if it's fresh juices, like we're really meant to have the whole fruit, right? The fiber like, and digest it slowly so that it's not a sugar spike. I'd love for you to talk about that too, the importance of, of actually having the whole food. Angela: Yeah, we definitely talk about kind of it being a whole food diet because that is so important and The issue with I mean, yes, you can get some of the nutrients if you juice But you're also gonna get mainly sugar without the fiber if you've removed the fiber. So the fiber is so important both to slow down your digestion and really pay attention to gut health. Angela: And I know you focus a lot on gut health. You know, that's where so much of our health overall starts. And there's so many connections between the gut and the mind and the body and the hormones and everything else, every, every system. And so, having that [00:09:00] fiber in your diet, really from whole foods. I mean, especially plant based foods, right? Angela: Because animal foods don't have fiber, but the plant based foods really then is is great food for the microbiomes, the microbiome, our microbiome and the bacteria, the 3 trillion bacteria that live in our gut. And it helps create, you know, it's more anti inflammatory because so many people kind of can get. Angela: almost a chronic inflammation from not eating enough fiber, not feeding their microbiome. And then that can lead to more issues in more body systems that they may not even be aware of. But nobody is, you know, advertising whole foods, like whole foods. So much of what people see and kind of the noise that feeds in is just, you know, everything else that's marketed in a box or a bag or somebody. Angela: And so that's what, and so sometimes those help people put health claims on other products that [00:10:00] aren't whole foods and then whole foods kind of get neglected. And so, yeah, we definitely want to say, you know, it's important. And we talk about eating the rainbow and the colors because each colors, providing different phytonutrients. Angela: And so, you know, you want that broad range because the more diversity you have in your fruits and vegetables, the more diverse a microbiome you're going to develop, the better protection for your immune system and just make everything else work better in your whole body. Michelle: I love that you talk about diversity because actually a lot of people end up developing sensitivities even if it's healthy food that they eat all the time and it's important to have diversity because it really allows the body to get so many different benefits and also not get too intolerant of one specific thing. Michelle: The body likes diversity. Judy: Absolutely. And we really wanted people to feel inclusive with the book. So that's why there's so much [00:11:00]culinary medicine, like just basic skills. Here's how you can throw something together without even a recipe, you know, just really, you know, five steps to a great salad. What should it have, you know, different things like that. Judy: And we also wanted it to really highlight the, All the global cuisines. And so for example I see a large population of South Asian women, right? And so there's, there, there always were like their diets too high in carbs. And we talked about what are all the wonderful things that herbs that you're using, the dolls, you know, the pulses, but we tried to make sure we had things from all regions because unfortunately a lot of people here in the medical world, like, Oh, just eat the Mediterranean diet. Judy: We're like, Oh no, no, no way. That that's so exclusive. It's not inclusive. We want to talk about, you know, foods from, you know, West Africa or Central America, a lot of the indigenous healthy foods, and then also what's seasonally available. And so one of the things that we really tried to [00:12:00]share is a lot of different types of foods. Judy: Simple preparation, but let people start where they're comfortable. So if you're a chef that only has three or four recipes and you're still sort of using some are processed foods, maybe they'll start with adding a soup or adding some vegetable dishes or adding a salad and letting them know you're going to get benefits from those first steps. Judy: Because some people feel like, like I just talked to someone, she goes, I'm trying to be all in, you know, trying to be perfect. Do you know what I mean? Michelle: Yeah, Judy: And that's stressful. It's stressful to feel like you're getting a grade on your diet. And we want people to feel like it's fun. They're having a date night with their partner and maybe they're trying a new recipe in the book. Judy: Or they got inspired because there is a lot of pressure when people are trying to conceive. And the book is also for those people who are like, Hey, we want to get pregnant in the next year. What's the path to a healthy pregnancy? We have no idea how long it's going to take, but [00:13:00] what's going to prepare us? Judy: And you know, Michelle, that like 50 percent of pregnancies are unplanned. So a lot of people, you know, maybe they're exposed to a lot of those fertility disruptors, and if they would have known even a few months in advance, they could have decreased some of the risks, you know that could impact their fertility and pregnancy. Michelle: definitely. I remember seeing something, it was about a burger or like a chicken sandwich or something. It was a sandwich with a bun that the woman just kept in her closet and just saw what happened and it was not, it was not good. Breaking down and I'm like, whoa That is crazy. Like things are supposed to break down if they don't break down and they don't yeah Just break down like what happens in your body So talk about the importance of eating whole foods. Michelle: Listen, we're going to have processed food once in a while. It's not like, you know, end all be all like, it's not one thing or another, obviously, [00:14:00] but talk about the importance of really being intentional about choosing more whole foods in your diet.  Angela: Well, you know, I do think, I think that everybody's so different in what they eat, but I think that, yeah, the ultra processed foods and processed grains, so like breads, cereals, pastas, Anything it's just so it it's everywhere, right? It's it's you can't get away from it and it's become normalized And it and so it has become acceptable and ordinary And the problem with those foods is yeah, you don't need to say i'm not never going to eat that again But it replaces it, you know, it takes the place of whole foods. Angela: And so I think you know Where do you get whole foods? Well, it's hard to get whole foods You You know if you're eating If you're buying foods at convenience stores or fast food restaurants or even regular restaurants Sometimes i'm surprised that menus don't have Kind of like more vegetables available when we talk about the fertility plate[00:15:00] and the whole plate being half Vegetables, right? Angela: You're not going to get that in a restaurant, like the restaurant usually. So, you know, we, we have talked to women, we didn't really talk about this that much in the book, but like, I think some of the women gave us examples of, you know, planning when you go to a restaurant, gosh, what can I eat from this menu that would be more of a whole food, what are the, sometimes the side vegetables are something they'll order from some of those things to say like, yeah, I don't need to necessarily go for the most. Indulgent luxurious meal. I want to go for the whole foods cause I know that's what my body needs. So we talk about being intuitive eater or competent eater. It, you know, I don't think this is taught well in schools. So, you know, to, to be honest, nobody, it's nobody's fault. Like where you are, it's a growth opportunity for everybody to be like, Hey, I didn't really get this education growing up. Angela: My parents worked. I didn't, you know, I didn't cook that much growing up, but now I'm an adult. And I need to really learn about [00:16:00] nutrition and what my body needs and how to heal myself through food. And what that might mean is I need to cook more. And if I don't know how to cook more with whole foods, You know, there's opportunities to learn. Angela: There's so much now available on YouTube, or that's both good and not so good, but you know, you can find the good, the good things and learn to cook with whole foods and buy things like our book, which are trying to teach people almost some intuitive cooking skills. Cause you don't always want to be cooking from a recipe. Angela: You want to get some basic staples and some comfort in the kitchen and some things you really are good at, and then always build new and add new. Okay. But yeah, so that was like one of the tenants of our philosophy of how we taught was, let's talk about, you know, building a meal. Let's talk about what vegetables are going to be in the meal, what protein is going to be in the meal. Angela: And for us, that was mainly going to be a [00:17:00] plant based protein. So either beans, lentils. tofu or tempeh or edamame, so a soy based protein, or fish, since all of those have been shown to increase fertility. And then whole grains, those ancient grains, so not processed and kind of putting that all together and nuts and seeds and other things that provide those denser nutrients. Angela: And really starting with like cutting things up, like, okay, let's prep everything. Let's do the mise en place. Let's get everything ready. Let's plan meals. So you're going to have leftovers. because it takes work and effort. You don't want to put all that effort in and then only eat once. So you want to have some leftover meals that you can repurpose throughout the week or free some of these meals that you're going to be able to then thaw out next week or next month when you're more time pressed, and you know, you've got your own freezer meal that you've prepared that you're going to be able to thaw out and cook and have a nutritious, delicious, quick meal, right? Angela: So it's just a, I think it's a mindset, right? [00:18:00] It's a different way to think. And, and everybody can get there and just build that knowledge and build those skills. And that's exciting. Michelle: It is exciting. I find that whenever you're learning something new, like you, you make it more complicated in your mind. You're like, oh, I have to do this whole thing. But you don't realize, like as you learn it, you could really strategize and make it so much easier and cheaper. You could save money that way. Judy: Absolutely. Michelle, you bring up a really good point. And what's really fun is a lot of the women who've taken classes or patients of ours, like even after like two years after they have their baby, I'll get an email. You know, I saved all those recipes from class and I still love the, you know, the quinoa mango black bean salad. Judy: It's so delicious in the summer. I take it to parties or one patient just wrote me about the soca bread made out of chickpeas that they start to add them to their repertoire or you want to increase their self efficacy, their confidence and their competency. And then when they do eat out, you know, maybe [00:19:00] they do broaden and they, you know, they go for an Indian meal or an Asian meal and they know like, Hey, I'm going to order one whole vegetarian. Judy: So I get more broccoli and veggies like they know how to order and feel good. When they go out or they travel, you know, how can I take that and keep it better? And, you know, just really, you know, giving them that support. And so in the book, for some people, this is really new. We kind of do like a six week blueprint, but we also say like, If you feel pretty good on some of the skills and you've checked the box, awesome. Judy: Work on some of those things that you, you want to build up stronger in your repertoire. And if you feel like you need more time, I remember when our class switched to virtual and we started to go to every other week, the women were like, this is kind of good because I have more time to work on my goals. Judy: I kind of like that other, remember the every other week model? You could do that with a six week plan. Maybe I'm going to try to do this over twelve weeks, you know, three months, give myself some time to To try new things.[00:20:00] And the thing is you're getting the benefit with every step you take. There's a benefit, you know? Judy: And so the cool thing for us is sometimes at the end of the class, women who didn't eat in the morning, they like. You know, we started eating in the morning because of class and the food was really good. They started regulating their cycles, Michelle. It was amazing. And one of our last live classes before COVID, I remember one table of four, they were all kind of waiting to get their cycles and things and getting ready for IVF. Judy: And they all went on to conceive. They all got their cycles and went on to conceive. And that was just, the cost of food and, you know, putting a little bit of time in so that lifestyle does make a difference whether someone's going for art treatment or they're, you know, they're, you know, they're just maximizing their fertility options. Michelle: Yeah, there was actually a study on girls in college that skipped breakfast and how it impacted their cycles I thought that was interesting[00:21:00] Judy: I would guess negatively. I'm thinking if Michelle: Negatively, yes negatively. Yeah. Yeah, Judy: You know, I just want to check. Michelle: They most of them started regular and it they became irregular. Judy: You know, and people are getting into a lot of fads where they're really time boxing their food. I just talked to someone in a smaller body and she says, I'm trying to eat clean. So I only eat between this time and this time. I go, Michelle: Mm hmm Judy: you should eat when you're hungry. Your body needs nourishment all day, not just eight hours. Judy: So sometimes we see people that are going to overboard. And they're restricting, and then their reproductive axis is not getting the nutrients it needs. And I'm like, that's not what you want to do for ag health. That's not what you want to do for reproductive health. If you feel cold at night and you're, and, and you know, and as we know with, you know, acupuncture and Chinese medicine, energy is such an important concept. Judy: So if you're freezing all of a sudden, and you're starving [00:22:00] yourself, you're not nourishing your body. Michelle: Absolutely. And actually in Ayurvedic medicine, they say that when the sun is out, that is when, because we, you know, we, we respond to the elements. And when the sun is out, especially like around 12 PM, you should have your largest meal because it increases your own digestive fire because we get influenced by nature. Michelle: And actually the morning you should have breakfast, you should have food during the day when the digestive fire is. Increase the most and when you shouldn't is as it gets darker like a couple hours before you go to sleep That's when you can give your body a break. So it kind of According to Ayurveda, it's a little bit more flipped than what's typically done where people skip breakfast. Angela: Right. And, and, you know, that, that exactly parallels some of the metabolic studies, right? So what Ayurvedic medicine is known for so long, right? And then Western medicine has to come and prove it that like our digestion is[00:23:00] better in the morning and the way glucose and, and. nutrients are processed in the morning is better when we have more energy and we're more active throughout the day. Angela: And then at night, things are winding down and slowing down and you want your body to relax for sleep and not be digesting a big meal. And, and we do talk about that, but it is really hard for people to flip to try and get more calories and earlier in the day when fewer at night when the typical pattern is, is the opposite. Michelle: and it's going to give them a lot more productivity and energy to have a good breakfast because you know, protein, you got those good fiber and vegetables and berries and, really start your day right. Judy: We encourage people if they're really set in a way, we're like, we'll do it as an experiment. Be curious. Try it on the weekend. Maybe try it on the weekend because you don't want to change your flow. See how your energy feels, especially when people are telling us they're fatigued. Judy: They're like, I'm so tired. And it's [00:24:00] like, and most of their energy intake is at night. They wake up not hungry. You know, we do try, you know, try to flip that around and that's part of that intuitive eating and eating competence and see where your body, because really people know a lot about their body and so we want them to be in tune to that too and trust that. Angela: And I was just going to add that, you know, sometimes people have these ideas of what a typical breakfast, lunch, and dinner is and what food should be part of those meals. And we say, Hey, that does not have to be the case either. I love a breakfast salad. I love eating my leftover dinner from the night before for breakfast. Angela: If I've made something delicious, I made this great stir fry and I've had a little bit because it's late, but I'm like, I want to have that for breakfast. I'm going to have a big bowl, you know, so I love having those other things early in the day because I do feel like it gives me great energy. And then the other thing that we talk about is, you know, the[00:25:00] walking after meals and especially getting outside early in the morning and getting that sunlight to really Start your day and, and get your clock going and how important those rhythms can be to recognize that you have, your body has a rhythm, sleep consistency is important, exercise and movement throughout the day is important, all these other things that we want to build in, you know, to our base for overall wellness to support fertility. Michelle: Yeah. I love it. I love it that you're a doctor and you're interested in this because unfortunately it's not as common. Like people don't know about all of these things about really connecting with nature and the nutrition aspect of it. So it's amazing. It's so well rounded because you have like so many different backgrounds and perspectives on Judy: We, we, we, yeah, we try to bring it all together and that's why this book would have been much longer if our publisher didn't say stop, you know, it was like twice as long. You'll see when you're writing your book, you want to share everything. And so we did include [00:26:00] two chapters on like boosters and disruptors, you know, talking about stress and sleep. Judy: And then also some of the disruptors like, you know, alcohol, cannabis, endocrine disruptors, because we didn't want to scare people, but we felt they needed to know. And you know, science based, evidence based, but we did put it at the end. You know, we really focus on the food and feeding yourself because really that's what our program is all about. Judy: But we find that when they put it all together and they get to those boosters and they add the movement and the stress and so many of our patients, patients who do acupuncture will say, well, that's one of the ways I always say, what do you get out of it? Cause I always want to know. And they go, Oh man, I'm such a good place to do. Judy: I leave in my stress level is so much better. I go, then that's something you want to include in, in, in what you're doing for your health. If you have the privilege and you have the accessibility to it. So we, we try to make everything accessible. Because there's so [00:27:00] many women and men who don't have access to medical care when it comes to fertility. Judy: It's really the underprivileged do not have access or such limited access that we thought if we could at least cover the main things and it could be, you know, available in libraries or, you know, things like that and audio books that that would be a way that more people could really have that information. Michelle: Well, it's great information. And also, I love that it talks about. combining foods, in Chinese medicine, we have a lot of formulas of herbs. So each herbal formula has different herbs and they work together as a symphony. And a lot of times they'll include ginger or digestive herbs to help assimilate. Michelle: So working together, And a certain symphony is what makes it that much more beneficial for the body. And I like how you talk about the importance of combining foods. You were talking about putting [00:28:00] vegetables because if you just eat meat without vegetables, it's not going to be able to simulate as well and digest as well without those vegetables helping in that fiber. Angela: Right. The vegetables are actually pretty protective, right? So I mean, there, you know, there have been studies that look at people who eat just more of an all meat diet and then people who eat more of a vegetable based diet, but with meat and the gut is healthier, right? If you incorporate those vegetables the, the, because the fiber from the vegetables is so protective. Angela: That then you are able to digest the, the meat and make use of the nutrients in the meat as well. So I think that's, that's great advice. And I think that, you know, out here we're in Seattle. And so we have a lot of, you know, we have a number of people who are trained in acupuncture. They are, you know, trained in traditional Chinese medicine. Angela: And we have always basically said, you know, gosh, I don't know that area, [00:29:00] but I trust. The practitioners in my area who knows so much this has been around for so long that let's, you know, combine and talk about the best of all worlds and support everybody's health. And then the same with fertility clinics, like some people really are going to need that extra step of a traditional IVF clinic. Angela: They might need insemination. They might need IVF. And then all these other things are going to be supportive and enhance their success because it's so expensive. And the last thing you want to have to do is multiple cycles. And so the more efficient you can make each cycle by bringing your best self forward into the process and taking the time, like a lot of people, you know, want to kind of take a lot of time to get to a fertility clinic. Angela: And then once they get there, they want IVF yesterday. Like they want to be pregnant yesterday. So And it's still really about the time and the investment in, [00:30:00] you know, producing optimum health for you and your partner. And so that, you know, it might take a good three months, right? Of preparation to say, let's make sure when you do IVF, if you need IVF and you're going to do it, that everything's perfect. Angela: As great as you can make it going into the cycle instead of just like, Oh, there's an opening next week. Let's get started. You know Michelle: I wish all reproductive endocrinologists spoke like you Angela: Oh, yeah. Thank Judy: she, and she, and she walks the walk, you know, for all the patients we've had together. A lot of times after that initial consult, she'd be like, okay, I want you to do, you know, food for fertility and work on nutrition and lifestyle for three months. You know, let's see, you know, what we can do with some of these biomarkers that are, that are elevated in a very positive way. Judy: And then quite often during that three months, a woman starts cycling. I always, I remember saying to Angela once years ago, I go, What if you put the [00:31:00] fertility clinics out of business? I mean, we were kidding, you know, when I said that they have the role. So please don't think I'm saying that, but you know, we did. Judy: And she's like, great. She was like, wonderful. Let's help people on the easiest journey. Let's not, you know, when someone gets sent to me and they've already had three failed IVFs. for whatever reason. And they're like, okay, I want to work on my nutrition. I'm so happy to work with them, but I feel really bad because they're pretty wounded because they've been pretty disappointed and let down. Judy: And sometimes it was something obvious that nobody ever brought up, you know, their eating disorder, their PCOS, that things could have been optimized first. So I think that's where we all work together. So I feel like that's why when you work in integrative planning, You know, practices. We, we work with, you know, fertility yoga instructors that we really trust and, and, and, and D's and dietitians and, and, you know, we know which clinics are going to be weight shaming, you know, we want to know [00:32:00] where can our patients put the best team together, where can they get support groups from resolve or other organizations so that they feel as fully supported as they go on this journey, because a lot of people, Never expected this. Judy: They just, I went through unexplained infertility for years. Never thought that was in the bags for me, but it was like. You know, you feel helpless. So having a community, and I think when we all work together interdisciplinary, you know, and we know the best people to send our patients to, or best organizations, or how to check, we really help them. Judy: We really, we really can help. So we're excited about you, you know, your future book. Yes. I mean, you know, I was just coming first, but yeah, looking for resources is so important, Michelle. Angela: And I, right. And I think, you know, those resources are great. And then also if somebody is seeing somebody and it's not clicking. You know, it could be it could be their doctor. It could be their [00:33:00] dietitian. It could be whatever They you don't have to stay with the same person. You can actually go get another opinion you might You know, click better and work better with someone else who Has different information even it's not all the same. Angela: So each of us don't necessarily provide the same information or You know, it's an art and a science and I think we all feel that that we connect with people It's so important, but we all connect differently And and as an individual each person should really You Make the most of that and, and really make that work for them. Angela: They're the ones they're invested in it. Michelle: That is so true. Absolutely true. I've seen people who have been going for years to one reproductive endocrinologist and then when they changed different approach, different energy, just like, and it was a different outcome, Angela: Yep. Michelle: you know, it happens.  Judy: And if you make a change, [00:34:00] no one's mad at you. We all want the same end result. I always tell them all the clinics in this town, they're all friends. They all know each other, you know, professionally, they all know each other. They're going to send your charts. Judy: They're not going to hold them back. You know, everybody does want a positive outcome, you know, to take place. Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. I mean you know, not always the case, , but when it is, it's amazing, and it's true you really do have to find that alignment and I always say, you know, it takes a village and creating a team of different people that can support you in different ways. Michelle: When going through this, but of course nutrition is so important in Chinese Judy: We all eat. Michelle: Yeah, we all eat and we eat for a reason a good reason, right? Angela: Mm hmm. Michelle: And the spleen and stomach are actually the center and they're like the mother in a sense, you know the nurturer Aspect of our bodies and that is really where everything else gets built they [00:35:00] talk about pre heaven chi pre heaven energy in the kidneys And of course the kidneys are really important But sustenance, the energy with which we can sustain and increase after our genetics is food, Angela: Right. And I think, you know, that's just kind of being understood. I mean, I think in science, Yeah. We now are recognizing, you know, there's genetics, and then there's epigenetics, which is how the genes are expressed and the epigenetics is how we influence which genes are expressed. And that has to do with our nutrition, our stress. Angela: Our sleep, our movement, our community, our mental disposition, our mental health, our optimism. All these things have a huge impact in our health by the epigenetics. And I think people sometimes think it's just genetics and things are. A predetermined and it's going to be one way and it's totally [00:36:00] not. You have so much influence as a, as an individual about what path your life can take and how your health is affected by these decisions you make every day. Michelle: which is so empowering, I think, to know that you actually can have a hand in your Angela: Mm hmm.  Judy: , I was just thinking we almost wanted to add a whole another chapter on epigenetics, but we had to pull it back. So we just kind of sprinkled it in, you know, the lifestyle things. But even when we work with people who are using donor eggs, their health will have an impact on these epigenetics. So that really empowering that mom, you are the full mom, you know, even with a donor egg, what you eat, your life, your health. Judy: Is going to have an impact on your baby. And I think that really helps people to know that Michelle: That is such a good point. It's really true because it's, it's all important. It's all parts of the [00:37:00] whole.  That's where you do have control right over your lifestyle. And these some of these decisions because you don't always have control over your fertility. I mean, certain aspects are just out of your control, and you do feel that helplessness. Angela: And so I think where you can feel good and feel empowered is, you know, these are the actions I can take. These are the steps I can take. I am making progress. I am growing as a person. I'm helping myself. I'm helping my community. Whatever the case may be, I try to recommend not kind of losing yourself in just trying to get pregnant. Angela: Really recognize your, yourself as a whole person and all the things you are providing to, to your community through purpose and service and love and, and everything you're doing is just, it's key to who you are and it brings you strength and peace. And that's just really [00:38:00] Great to know and you, those are decisions you can make. Angela: That's not something out of your control. Michelle: That's so important. And thank you for bringing that up and you guys, I could talk to you guys for hours cause you know what, you know what I love? Well, first of all, your knowledge, you guys are very knowledgeable about what you're talking about, but the passion , and the compassion. With which you are operating  Michelle: I think we both have one major thing in common is that we love this community and it's a beautiful community to serve. And so for people who want to find you or read your book, how can they find you? Judy: Well, the book is available at all major books, booksellers and many of the independent ones request it getting to baby book.com. It will be released April 9th. So I'm not sure when this is released, but April 9th will be released. It can be pre-ordered. You can follow me at Fertile Nutrition or on my website, mindbody nutrition.com [00:39:00] and Angela. Angela: And you can also request the book from your library. So libraries don't automatically stock books, but if individuals make a request to a library, the library can order the book. So that's something to know as well. And then I'm at AngelaThiremd. com or at AngelaThiremd on Instagram. Michelle: Awesome. It was such a pleasure meeting the two of you. You guys are so nice and so knowledgeable and just really lovely to talk to. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. Angela: Thank you, Michelle. Judy: Michelle. Thanks, Michelle. Angela: to you as well. 

Dr. Katie Lee is a dentist, speaker, author, and coach who lives in Aurora, Colorado. Dr. Lee graduated from University of Illinois at Chicago in 2010 and was an owner-partner in over 80 DSO supported dental practices throughout the US and served as Clinical Partner overseeing 5 states. Currently, she consults for health technology companies and provides implant education for general dentists. Dr. Lee has two passions in her profession: dentistry itself and making other dentists successful. Her passion about the oral systemic health link comes from personal experience. Dr. Lee was involved in an ATV accident as a teenager, which left her without many teeth and rendered her jaw immobile. Dr. Lee experienced how oral health affects systemic health and the benefits of dental implants. Her first-hand journey in recovering from the effects of dental trauma led her to specialize her career on the mouth-body connection® and dental implants. Dr. Lee searches for proven technologies that improve clinical outcomes and the patient experience and loves to educate her peers on those technologies. Dr. Lee authored a book entitled Saved By the Mouth to educate patients and clinicians on the importance of oral health. Dr. Lee has won many accolades, including Top 40 under 40 Dentists in America, and International Woman of the Year in Dentistry. She has been featured on local Fox and NBC news stations discussing the importance of oral health.     https://www.instagram.com/katieleedds/   https://www.facebook.com/katieleedds   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:   https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/           Transcript:   Michelle Michelle: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Lee. Katie: Thanks. I'm really excited to be here. Michelle: I'm so excited to have you on actually, this is a first, I have never spoken to a dentist on this podcast, but it is such an important topic because there's such a correlation between inflammation in the mouth and also unexplained infertility. And I'm very excited to get started before we get started. I would love for you to give us a little bit of a background on yourself, how you got into the work that you do. Katie: Sure. Absolutely. Thanks for having me on. I feel honored that I'm, I'm the first. Hopefully, I don't mess it up for the rest of us dentists out there. My journey into dentistry was. Of tragedy. So when I was in high school, about 14 years old, I was involved in a ATV four wheeler accident where I crashed into a telephone pole headfirst without a helmet on, broke every bone in my face from my eyebrows down and naturally, or I [00:01:00] guess as expected, lost a ton of teeth and my jaws were wired shut immediately, even though I had lots of teeth that were displaced and broken. Katie: And, they were wired shut for two months. I'm I couldn't eat and so I was on a liquid diet and My family didn't really know anything about nutrition. So I was Having pudding jello ice cream, you know with Hershey's syrup box mashed potatoes You know all the things that you should not eat to be healthy or maintain your teeth And so I just started developing a ton of dental infection And, , that combined with not being able to eat nutritious foods, you know, my body really started shutting down. Katie: , I lost a ton of weight, my liver enzymes spiked, my kidneys started shutting down. And so I learned from a very early age just how much your oral health affects. Not only your mental and emotional health, but your, your physical health as well. And, you know, it was nine surgeries in four years, , that it [00:02:00] took to reconstruct my face and my jaw. Katie: And then once that was done and only then was I able to my teeth and, and finally replace the missing teeth and fix my smile. So that really. Got me interested in what I do. And then once I got into dentistry, you know, I started going down this journey of oral systemic health. And from a personal experience, I had a lot of fertility issues. Katie: I went through about six years in fertility treatment. And so just really started diving into, you know, how can. How does the mouth affect this and what can I do as a dentist to help other people? Michelle: Yeah, I mean it's definitely something that I think a lot of people do not I don't want to really correlate, but let's, let's actually really break this down because like , how can your teeth impact your body?  Katie: From a high level? Start there? Yeah. So, , there's a couple different ways that the teeth and gums are really affected to the rest of the body. And, the first way that I About is bacteria. So our body [00:03:00] has types of microbiomes and the first real microbiome that we get or we're introduced to is the one in our mouth and we get that, you know, we used to always think that babies were sterile. Katie: We know that they are introduced to some bacteria when in utero first microbiome that we get introduced to is through the mom's vaginal canal. And then Through breast milk and from family members when we're kissing, , and, you know, eating and drinking after them, we get this whole microbiome and the microbiome in our mouth is super important because it's what establishes and feeds our gut microbiome. Katie: And so we know that when we develop dysbiosis in the mouth, what actually happens is that bacteria then go through our gum tissue, or we swallow 80 trillion bacteria a day. And so the bacteria that are in our mouth. We'll go to other places in our body that they're not supposed to be and start to cause damage. Katie: So that's one way that the mouth affects it. And then the other way is through inflammation. So again, when we have these foreign invaders in our mouth, what we know [00:04:00] is that our body elicits an immune response. And that immune response, unfortunately, doesn't stay localized to our mouth. It will break down our gum tissue, making our gum tissue permeable, again, allowing what's in the mouth to get to the rest of the body. Katie: But it also triggers an inflammatory response in other parts of the body, too. And this becomes really important in fertility, because that's when people can start to develop things like endometriosis, pelvic inflammatory disease, and things like Michelle: yeah. And also, as you're talking about this, I'm thinking about all these like alcohol rinses, you know, mouthwashes. So that's huge because people are like, oh, I want to get rid of my mouth bacteria because I want to really clean mouth. So like, But that messes up the good bacteria. So talk about that. I mean, you know more about this than I do Katie: Yeah, no, I mean, that is such a good point. I'm so glad that you brought that up, because The way I was trained, even 10, you know, back in, I graduated in 2010, you know, we were [00:05:00]taught the, the more it burns, the better it's cleaning, right? Like you want something in there that's burning. You want something that's 99 kills 99. Katie: 9 percent of all bacteria. But what we know is that's actually really bad. And to your point, , those types of products are not selective. So they're killing everything that's there. The good and the bad, when really we want to control the bad, support the good. and kind of let the body do its own thing. Katie: The other thing that's damaging about alcohol mouthwashes is that it dries out your tissues. And we know that when you have dry mouth or dry tissues, the bad bacteria love to go to those surfaces and take up shop. And it really supports them colonizing and growing their little, , microbial communities. Katie: So we want to have saliva. Saliva protects our teeth and gums from bad bacteria. So an alcohol containing product is not good for our health. Michelle: Now what does a person do if they were a c section Katie: Yeah. So, you know, there's lots of things that people can do throughout their life to [00:06:00]support their microbiome, you know, C section babies. We know that unfortunately they, they don't get exposed to the. you know, good vaginal bacteria during birth, but there's lots of things that they can do to support their microbiome. Katie: So I'm a, you know, people always talk about taking probiotics and probiotics are great. And what probiotics do is they're actually going to put bacteria into the body. , so it'll, it'll help replenish the bacteria that is missing from the gut. What people also don't understand is that they need to feed the good bacteria that they already have. Katie: So you cannot forget to take. Prebiotics, eat prebiotic food, take prebiotic, supplements. That way you can feed and help nourish the bacteria that's already there. Michelle: Yeah, Katie: We're introduced to so many bacteria every single minute of the day. You know, I, I wouldn't be as concerned once you get into adulthood about having a c section or being a c section baby because by that time you've been exposed to really everything that you need in your life. Katie: At that point it's just about nourishing and keeping it in balance. Michelle: Yeah. For sure.[00:07:00] It's interesting cause I was actually at, , microbiome labs. So are you familiar with them? So they actually have an enzyme like mouth. It's like a mint freshener, but it's like an enzyme one. And there was a guy who was talking about oral health. It was a presenter and he was talking about that and I thought that was really interesting and he also talked about Mouth breathers people who go to sleep and yeah So let's talk about that because that's really important and it's a big thing now people actually tape their mouth Katie: I know, it's just that you don't. Yeah, thank goodness for Instagram, you know, because you'll see someone on Instagram taping their mouth and all of a sudden everyone wants to tape their mouth, so this is really important because You know, there's a really good book out there for people to read called Breath by James Nestor I don't know if you've heard of it. Katie: A patient actually recommended it to me And it basically talks about that over time because of our high processed diet We've gone from eating You know, super fibrous, tough [00:08:00] foods to eating high processed carbohydrates and softer foods. And because of that, the structures of our skull and jaws have actually, , shortened or shrink. Katie: And because we have smaller jaws, it's why we no longer can. Make room for our wisdom teeth. So most people actually have to extract their wisdom teeth now. And what we know is that the smaller our jaws are, the less room in our mouth for our tongue and our airways actually start to shrink. So what happens is when we go to bed at night. Katie: our tongue falls to the back of our mouth and our airway collapses and we essentially start choking on our tongue. And so we start to breathe through our mouth. And the problem with this is our nose is, is such a, an incredible organ. It's designed with. millions and trillions and billions of of cilia in there to filter out the pollutants in the air. Katie: But when we're not breathing through our nose, we're taking in all of that dirty air through our mouth and it goes straight into our oral [00:09:00] cavity. We're introducing new, , microbes into our oral cavity that disrupts our microbiome. We're drying out our tissues. And again, we talked about dry mouth leads to increased bacteria formation, increased plaque formation, but then all that dirty air is also getting into our lung system, , which is not good and will trigger an inflammatory response. Katie: And so people don't realize that mouth breathing. causes or exacerbates allergies, , it also causes oral dysbiosis in the microbiome and therefore gut dysbiosis. And so one of the things that people need to do is to retrain themselves, how to breathe through their nose. So really great way to do that is by mouth taping. Katie: And a lot of patients will say, well, doc, I, you know, I can't breathe through my nose even during the day. And I'll say, well, you've got to retrain yourself how to use that part of your body that you haven't been using forever. So I encourage them to start taping during the day, you know, maybe just do 15 minutes at a time and slowly the nose will start to open up and work again.[00:10:00] Katie: Now, if someone has something more severe, like sleep apnea, they absolutely need to get a sleep test, , to get that diagnosis and then get treatment because. Sleep apnea is where you're actually choking at night. You're not breathing. You're waking up more than five times per hour because your oxygen is desaturating more than, more than 10%. Katie: And so those people need supplemental treatment such as a CPAP or an oral appliance or something like that. But sleep apnea is horrible for your brain. It kills brain cells. It's really hard on your heart and it's fatal if it's left untreated. It's just a matter of when. So I'm really glad that you brought that up. Michelle: that's actually really scary I do know that there's a correlation with weight gain And sleep apnea. So like, it's interesting because it's the whole thing. Like if you're taking care of your body and you're healthy, that impacts all the other things in your life, like your sleep. Katie: Definitely. Sleep apnea, what happens is when you, you know, when you're asleep and you stop breathing, what [00:11:00] happens is your body sends this rush of adrenaline to your brain stem to wake you up enough to take a breath. When you're doing that, you're stressing your body out, so cortisol is released. Katie: Cortisol causes systemic inflammation if it's released at high levels over time. , we also know that it, , lowers our insulin Michelle: Right. And then we gain weight because of that. Katie: yes, making us crave carbohydrates, making us gain weight. And so a lot of people have probably noticed that, and I, I notice this all the time. If I don't get a good night's sleep, I, all I want the next day is carbs, right? Katie: Carbs, Michelle: It's the quickest energy. Katie: I want. So it is crucial. Michelle: Yeah, for sure. I mean, cause that's what it is when you're tired, you want quick energy and the body knows instinctively that you'll get it with carbs. Katie: Absolutely. Michelle: course, that's not a very good source of energy. It's not, , an efficient one. Katie: Yeah, you run out of it very quickly. Michelle: And then other questions that I have is over brushing. Michelle: So some people think, okay, after everything that I eat, I'm going to brush my [00:12:00]teeth. What are your thoughts on that? Katie: Yeah, so there's a balance there, right? And what people want to try and avoid is brushing immediately after eating and drinking. Because we know that after you eat and drink, the pH in the mouth is going to go down. So what happens is we put something in our mouth, the mouth is the beginning of our digestive system. Katie: And so our body releases an enzyme in the mouth called amylase. And this amylase is an enzyme that starts to break down the carbohydrates in our mouth. So in order to do that, the pH has to drop. The pH also drops just because most of the stuff we put in our mouth is acidic anyway. And so you combine acidic food and drink with an acidic pH from, from the amylase secretion, and you're setting yourself up for a disaster of erosion and cavities. Katie: And so if you're going to eat or drink something, I always recommend to wait at least 30 minutes, before you brush. But people absolutely need to brush minimum twice a day. I mean that's like non negotiable I always recommend morning and night [00:13:00] if they can get one more in there during the day. That's great But if they can at least do two minutes morning and night, I think people are going to be pretty satisfied with Michelle: yeah, for sure. Now my other question is mercury fillings. Katie: yes Michelle: Yeah, let's talk about that because for a while, oh, it was like no big deal and now they're finding that it is. So it's kind of like brushed off a lot of times. I remember going to the dentist and asking for the white filler and, and he was kind of giving me pushback on that. Michelle: Yeah. Katie: And there's, unfortunately, you know, a lot of dentists out there that still believe that way. , and, you know, I hope your audience doesn't crucify me with this because I don't believe this. But their, their mindset is, and it is true, mercury fillings are stronger than the white composite fillings. Katie: Also, they're less technique sensitive when putting them in so if you're putting in a white composite filling little dental nerd out here You have to have everything completely Isolated [00:14:00]otherwise the white filling won't bond to the tooth and the filling will fail really quickly and the patient will get decay right underneath that Filling when you're packing in the mercury fillings. Katie: I mean, you're literally just Katie: It's called an amalgam, so it's an amalgamation of all this material. And so it doesn't matter if there's saliva. It doesn't matter if there's blood. , because it's not bonding to the two structures. So the dentists don't have to be as careful and think about it. I mean you're working in the mouth where there's tons of saliva and bleeding and things like that. Katie: So they're much Less technique sensitive to put in and they are stronger. , now the downside is they're filled with all kinds of things that are terrible for you. And we know, you know, think if you think about a mercury thermometer, right? There's a very small amount of mercury in that thermometer. But if a thermometer breaks in school, they shut the entire school down and call in a hazmat team to come clean it up, or a biohazardment team to come clean it up. Katie: Yet we're plugging this stuff into people's teeth. And the hard [00:15:00] thing about teeth, or the thing that people need to understand is that teeth are organs. And they have a blood supply, and they have a nerve supply, and to put that, that type of material, especially mercury, near blood supply that's connected to the rest of the body, or nerves that are connected to the rest of the body, in my opinion, is dangerous, you know, if we just use a little bit of common sense. Katie: And so I don't like mercury fillings. And now we're left with a bunch of patients that have them in their head Now, what do we do to remove them because you can't just go in and start Drilling them out and creating all this mercury vapor, right? Because it's not good for the dentist or the patient Michelle: So there's a biological dentists that specifically specialize in removing them. What are your thoughts on that? Katie: I I think it's really important to Go to someone that understands how to remove them correctly correctly. I would not consider myself You know the gold standard biologic dentist, you know, and the fact that I do all zirconia [00:16:00] implants and things like that But I definitely believe in safe amalgam removal because it's actually more dangerous for the provider who's removing the, the mercury filling and the assistant who's suctioning everything out than it is for the patient because we're creating all this vapor that's coming out of the mouth. Katie: Sure, it's coming into your body, but we're the ones that it's getting on our skin. You know, it's settling up next to our thyroid. So a lot of dentists have thyroid issues, myself included. This happened to me early on in my career when I started learning about this, they have fertility issues. , and so it's really important that dentists understand how to remove them safely. Katie: So I, I definitely, if I was having mercury fillings removed, I would make sure my dentist knew how to do it appropriately. Michelle: Yeah. Oh my god. You're giving such good information I really appreciate it because I think these are all questions that people have and you're giving a very well rounded very balanced Information Katie: I always say, you know, there's amalgam dentists, right? Like the traditional You know, every day dentist , and then there's the biologic dentist that do everything on the opposite end of the spectrum. Katie: I would say I'm [00:17:00] over halfway to the biologic dentist, but not all the way quite there. Michelle: Well, I guess it's kind of like traditional medicine. Katie: Yes. Traditional medicine. Yes, Michelle: It's, it's a little bit more of a holistic way to look at Katie: Yes. Yeah, Michelle: , and of course, even with what I do, even though I specialize in alternative medicine, I'm very much in the world of Western medicine because a lot of my patients need sometimes like conventional medical care  Michelle: so it's nice to have a balance of both. Katie: Yeah. I still, you know, I joke all the time. I still believe in science, right? , I still do testing. I still do modalities. There's a time and place for everything. I just think we need to be a little bit smarter about how we approach, you know, healthcare and dentistry and, , not use bad materials that we know are horrible for us. Michelle: 100%. What I'm finding actually is a lot of people in my world are very much now into studies and science. So there is a bridge that's coming together. And I see a lot of, REs that I have developed great relationships with are [00:18:00] very open to what I do to help their patients. So I'm starting to see this shift of everybody coming together, which I love. Katie: That makes me happy because, you know, I did infertility treatment for six years and I saw some of the best specialists in the country. Not one asked them about my oral health. And there's so much research out there about how oral health affects infertility and you know Thank goodness. My oral health was fine. Katie: Of course. I checked it before, you know, I went and did all this stuff But you know, it was just kind of shocking to me how siloed and hyper focused they practiced, you know, and just looking at the reproductive system and nothing else Michelle: Oh, yeah. And even in Spain, they'll check even the vaginal microbiome, which I find so interesting because there's a correlation between that being off and then fail transfers. So they do that like automatically and it increases their success rates and they'll give them like vaginal, Probiotics Katie: I love that Michelle: And, and that's like a thing here. It's not so as we [00:19:00] learn, I mean, and then of course, when I read it starts with egg, that's what really got me into the whole teeth thing and then seeing the science with that. And now, like, even for my intake form, I always have a section that talks about like, have you ever had dental work done because it's important, but you know, you learn, it's not something that I knew like automatically, but as I got more into it. Michelle: I learned. Another thing that I wanted to ask you, what are your thoughts about fluoride? Because I know this is a very hot topic. Katie: Hot topic right, you know, I think I think it's a, another conversation like mercury, right? I think for a very long time, we had this major issue of, we call it caries in the dental field, which is just cavities. And so we had, you know, dental decay is like the number one disease in the world. And we had all these. Katie: You know, kids and people that had rampant decay and instead of looking at diet and microbiome, which is what we should have done, we said, okay, well, let's create some sort of chemical or product [00:20:00] that we can do to treat right. We're treating the symptom, not the original form of what's causing it. And so they created this. Katie: But what we now know is that when you. swallow it and you ingest it systemically, it's not good for you. It's a, it's a neurotoxin. And there's so many, I think there's so many other ways that we can combat dental decay where we can get around using fluoride. Now, if I have a patient that comes in that's refusing to do any of these other things that I'm talking about, and they're a teenager, and they have rampant decay everywhere and I know they're not going to make any lifestyle, nutritional, or oral habit modifications. Katie: May I put some fluoride on their teeth? Sure, but it's going to be something that's isolated that they're not going to ingest and swallow. My preference is to not use that because I know that even if I put a little bit in their mouth, it's still going to get in their system. But not treating someone with rampant decay and having Having them lose teeth because of it, or worse, develop an abscess, which we [00:21:00] know abscesses are horrible for our overall health. Katie: To me, that's doing more harm than painting a little bit of fluoride on teeth. But I actually recommend to use products like Nanohydroxyapatite is awesome. It was developed for NASA a long, long time ago to help astronauts, , you know, to prevent them from, from getting decay. So if it's good enough for NASA, it's good enough for me, right? Katie: So I love Nanohydroxyapatite. I love M. I. paste. , I also love arginine. Arginine is something that a lot of people don't know a ton about, but there's a ton of research out there showing that toothpaste that are high in arginine, like Tom's for example, , prevent tooth decay and also help treat tooth sensitivity. Katie: So I think we have Michelle: I love Katie: so many great things out there that we could use in addition to, you know, making sure that we're balancing and nurturing our microbiome. Not eating Jolly Rancher is incredible. Michelle: Yeah, exactly. My kids have been fluoride free. They don't get fluoride. They've been using fluoride free toothpaste. [00:22:00] They have never had cavity. Katie: Amazing. Yeah, and they, and they should never need it, right? Our, Michelle: They floss too. Katie: Yeah, I mean, so there you go, right? And, but what people don't understand, and I would have patients come into my practice, and they would say like, well, I want fluoride free. And I'd say, okay, tell me about your diet. And it was breads and pastas and carbs and sugar and five cokes a day. Katie: And they don't brush or floss their teeth. And they think oil pulling is going to solve everything. You know, and I'm like that, we can't do that, right? We need to, we need to intervene here. But if, someone takes a holistic approach to their oral health care, they should never need fluoride. And we know that our cavity causing bacteria really peaks and starts to decline in mid thirties. Katie: And so if parents are healthy, Their kids are going to be healthy because you're number one modeling healthy lifestyle But number two you're transferring all of your microbiome to your kids And so another thing that people don't realize is that if a parent's mouth is Full of [00:23:00] cavities and gum disease the kids mouth is going to be full of it because you're sharing the same bacteria So good for you for you being healthy and then keeping your kids healthy, too. Michelle: Thank you. I love how balanced this conversation is. It's amazing information. , I just love this because it's so important and it's, it's information that a lot of people just don't have access to, and it's not even like, sometimes it's not even knowing that you need to have access to certain information, but it's like. Michelle: So important. And it could be like that one thing that people are not looking into when they're going through fertility treatments or just challenges overall, Katie: Yeah, and we know that fertility treatment actually increases our inflammatory levels and increases the leakiness of our gum tissue. So if the mouth isn't healthy to start, or even if there's a little bit of dysbiosis going on, fertility treatment is just going to exacerbate it. So it's best to get it treated, you know, it's safe to do it during pregnancy, but it's always best to do it beforehand. Michelle: Yeah, [00:24:00] for sure. So now, let's talk about Peelu gum. So you hear about Peelu gum, , that it's very good for your teeth. I just was wondering what your thoughts on it or if you know, like how it can impact Katie: I actually don't know what that is. Michelle: Oh, so Peelu is from a tree. It's the Peelu tree, I believe. And so they create this gum and it's sugar free, but it's like natural sweetener and it's supposed to actually help clean the teeth. Katie: Okay. Michelle: Yeah. So look into that. Yeah. If you find out anything, email me. Katie: Yeah. Do you know what the sweetener is in it? Is it Xylitol or do you know what's in it? Yeah. So anything with Xylitol I love, , Xylitol is a natural sweetener that tricks the bacteria in your mouth to thinking that it's sugar because that's what the bacteria thrive on. Katie: So the streptococcus mutans cavity causing bacteria in the mouth. What it does is it feeds off of sugar, so that can be sugar from candy or gum or, you know, breads, pastas, processed [00:25:00]carbohydrates, things like that. And then it excretes lactic acid on the teeth and that's what causes cavities. So xylitol, what it does, is the bacteria still thinks it's the sugar that it wants to eat, but once it eats it, it can't metabolize it, so it actually starts, from ingesting the xylitol. Katie: So I love that. I'm gonna look that up. I haven't heard of that Michelle: Yeah. They have it at Whole Foods. It's kind of like a more natural, you know, more natural, but it's supposed to be good for the teeth. Like I think that back in the day people used to chew on it. It was from trees and they would just chew on the actual whatever that was. But Katie: which that's good too, because again, you're chewing on fibrous branches, right? And that's really good to stimulate saliva. It's really good to work on your jaw muscles and it's really good to develop the structural skeleton of the jaw on the face. So Michelle: yeah, so maybe, a little gum chewing is okay. Katie: Oh, I love gum Michelle: strength. Katie: recommend it all the time. Yeah. That's actually one of the things that I do recommend for my patients. , because you know, like I mentioned, it stimulates [00:26:00] saliva. Saliva is like our best protector that we have of our teeth because it neutralizes the pH. It actually coats our teeth in, You know, this like biofilm, right? Katie: That's super healthy. So it protects the teeth from getting any bad bacteria stuck to it. So I'm a big fan of chewing gum. I think it's great. I recommend it for patients all the time. As long as it's sugar free, of Michelle: Yeah. So this might be the ideal thing, the Peelu gum. Katie: Yeah. Michelle: I happen to love it. So it's kind of my guilty pleasure. I try not to do it too much cause I know like it's just, you don't want to wear down your teeth, but Katie: should, I mean, you shouldn't, unless you're really grinding it, like you shouldn't be wearing down your Michelle: right. So it's, it probably protects it anyway. Okay. Well that's good to know. Cause I Katie: habit to do. Michelle: I learned something new. It's nice to hear that you, that you actually promote that or that you support doing that. That's awesome. Wow, this is great information. I know you also have a book about the mouth. Katie: Yes, so I wrote a book called Saved by the Mouth and it's all about how oral health [00:27:00]affects , virtually every organ system in the body. So we talk about brain health, heart health, cancer, fertility, of course, , aging, gut health. And so I wrote it from the, or I wrote it as if I was having a conversation with a patient because I wanted the information to be easily digestible. Katie: And entertaining. And so every, as entertaining as Michelle: I love that. Katie: guess. And so every chapter actually talks about a situation that I had with a patient in my practice and them having to deal with whatever ailment they were dealing with. And so it's, I think it's really relatable. It's a quick read. Katie: , and what I like about it too is it also goes over super simple daily modifications that people can do to improve their oral health and it doesn't have to be like a life changing makeover. They're just small things that you can do to improve health and then also what to ask your dentist for and you can go to any dentist and ask this. Katie: It doesn't have to be a biologic dentist. You know, asking for things [00:28:00] like salivary testing, that's super important to know what's in your microbiome. Asking for your gums to be measured, so you actually know if you have a gum infection, things like that. Michelle: Fantastic. And then you had also talked about how like when people are pregnant, sometimes people will say, don't do any dental work during that time. So talk about that. Cause that sounds like it's an important thing for Katie: it is. It drives me insane. , and I was trained that way, by the way. So, you know, people aren't doing anything wrong. It's, it's, it's, you know, a product of the education system, unfortunately. But what we know is that when people have gum infection, it affects fertility in all sorts of ways. You know, it. It affects not only men, or not only women, but also men. Katie: And We know that if once a woman is pregnant, if she has gum infection, she is 30 to 50 percent more likely to have a preterm birth, a low birth weight baby, or stillbirth. And we know that of [00:29:00] pregnant women, about 40 percent of them present with some sort of gum infection, whether it be gingivitis or gum disease. Katie: And yet, 56 percent of pregnant women avoid the dentist. So, with those statistics alone, you know, it only makes sense that we need to be treating our oral health ideally before you even start to try and get pregnant because it will help you get pregnant. But, you know, I, I always get questions from patients being like, well, I'm pregnant now, you know, what do I do? Katie: I, I feel like I might have something going on. Well, you absolutely should go to the dentist and get this treated because you want to try and avoid any sort of pregnancy complications and, and again, patients with perio infection gum disease or gingivitis are at much higher risk for, you know, having a complication with their baby. Katie: And we know that if they get perio treatment while pregnant, their medical costs will reduce about 74%. So it's very important for the outcome of the pregnancy for the mom, but also for the outcome of the pregnancy for the baby. Michelle: Wow. That is Katie: the [00:30:00] dentist. Michelle: important. Chinese Katie: I don't get elective care now What I'm what I'm not saying is to go get veneers done. Katie: Like so I don't want people to mishear me I'm saying, you know If you have a gum infection or tooth abscess, you absolutely should go get that treated while you're pregnant All elective care can can wait until after baby's here. Michelle: Such a good point. Interestingly enough, Chinese medicine, the teeth are an expression of the kidneys. Chinese medicine, the kidneys are not what we look at in conventional medicine. The kidneys are actually what houses your reproductive essence and health. So it's so crazy how there is this correlation. Michelle: I see this a lot. I see this quite often, actually, even with, the heart and brain different. Topic, but the heart houses the brain. This is how we're taught in Chinese medicine. And now they're seeing in heart math that there is this correlation between the heart and the brain. And there's a communication between the heart and the brain that it's measured. Michelle: So it's interesting how science is [00:31:00] connecting, you know, you're connecting the dots between what was talked about in Chinese medicine. That may not. Initially makes sense, but then you're seeing in science things that are proving those things. So it's pretty wild that we're coming to this place where it's bridging. Michelle: You're actually seeing the two connecting. Katie: knew about the meridians in the teeth, but I did not know about the kidneys and fertility in teeth. That just like really blew my mind. Michelle: Yeah, for sure. And it's interesting because as a child, you know, when they're, when they're little, you know, their, their body's developing and as they get closer to kind of reproductive years, that's when their real teeth come out. And then as, , the reproductive health declines and they're getting really old, the teeth fall out. Michelle: So it's kind of like this connection to essence. Katie: I just got goosebumps. Michelle: Very fascinating. It's just, the human body is Katie: And it, it's also tied with, with microbiome, right? Like when we're born, our microbiome [00:32:00] is the least diverse. , and the least strong. It's also the strongest, like what you say, in our reproductive year. So I always tell people, you know, when you're in your 20s, and, you know, you're invincible, and you can go out every night, and not get any sleep, and eat whatever you want, and never get sick, that's when your microbiome is the best. Katie: But then also, as you age, our microbiome starts to deplete again, in not only numbers, but also diversity, and then that's when we die. So it's, it's funny how this all Michelle: Yeah. Isn't that interesting? We have these like peaks and then valleys, so it's pretty wild. Katie: that is wild. Michelle: Yeah. So we're like building and then we're kind of sloping and going down. And then also I was curious to know your thoughts about like neem rinse or a tea tree, you know, instead of obviously alcohol, what are your thoughts on Katie: Yeah. Yeah. I, I love neem oil. I actually use neem oil in my hair all over my face, like all the stuff. I think anything that you can do to be more natural is [00:33:00] totally fine. I think the key is, is that patients need to make sure that they are healthy first. A lot of times I'll have people come in and they'll be like, you know, I haven't gone to the dentist in 10 years because I oil pull or I, you know, I use essential oils or rinse with coconut every day, but their mouth is a mess, right? Katie: And they've inflammation everywhere and calculus everywhere and cavities. And so I always tell people is go to the dentist. Get a clean bill of health or if you're not healthy at least have them You know clean you up and get you healthy and then use those tools to maintain yourself over time You know when patients don't floss their teeth they get little clicks Or little nodules of calculus that build up in between their teeth under their gum line. Katie: There's nothing but mechanical debridement that will remove that. And there's no amount of oil pooling in the world that will treat that. And that's what's going to cause gum infection and gum disease. So, you know, if people want to use neem rinses and tea tree and things like that, great. Tea tree is also good for pain. Katie: You know, if someone has a little [00:34:00] ulcer in their mouth, it's great for that. Very antibacterial, neem is great for that, antifungal, all those things. But get clean first, get a clean bill of health, and then use those tools in your toolbox to maintain that bill of health. Michelle: Yeah, definitely. No doubt. I'm every six months we get our teeth cleaned. It's, it's important to actually get it because you feel it. You feel all the calcification and I even have my own little scraper. Sometimes I'll just get in between, in between times. Cause I'm like, I can't wait until the next six months. Michelle: Cause it does, it builds up. And then if you have tea and all kinds of different things, like it just, it's there. Katie: Yeah, so when we have plaque, plaque starts forming on our teeth just a couple hours after we're done brushing. So that's why ideally, if someone can brush three times a day, that's great. At least twice, you know, you'll be okay. But what happens is, once that plaque sits there, it starts to really mature. Katie: And it gets really, it gets harder to remove because the, the extracellular matrices of the bacteria really start to connect and, and strengthen its attachment to the teeth. Then we mix it with the minerals in our [00:35:00] saliva, and then it hardens and it calcifies into calculus or what people know as tartar. Katie: Once it's hardened, you cannot get that off unless you remove it with a scaler or something like that. And so it is important to go in and get it removed. Because, you know, even with a scaler, I do it to scale my teeth all the time. There's places you can't obviously reach, you know, like underneath the gum tissue in between that have to be removed. Katie: And so I actually recommend for people to go in to see their dentist about every three to four months, even if they are healthy. Because we know that bacteria repopulate about every 90 days. , and so in my opinion, six months is too long. Someone like you who's super healthy, you know, probably doesn't need to go in. Katie: But for the vast majority of Americans especially, they should be staying every three to four months for sure. , to prevent disease. You know, we, It's crazy. Cause the six month timeframe came about because of insurance. It, Michelle: No, that's exactly why we do six months. Cause our insurance pays for that. Katie: yes. It was never a medically, , [00:36:00] science based driven Michelle: Isn't that amazing how the Katie: Yeah, it was, it was dictated by insurance and it's only after. You get an irreversible diagnosis of gum disease, which is irreversible Once you have that once you have gum disease, we know you have that bacteria in your heart We know it's in your brain We know it's all over the body But it's only until you get that irreversible diagnosis of gum disease that now your insurance will allow you to go in every every three Months, that's crazy In my mind, why not go every three to four months and prevent an irreversible disease? Michelle: totally, but you know common sense common sense Doesn't always translate into the system Katie: wish we used our brains more. In Michelle: Yeah, that's crazy. So another question I have lastly like this is another thing My mom sent me this video on Facebook of a dentist showing how to properly Brush the teeth. So we typically will just keep going back and forth, but he said, all you have to do is [00:37:00] kind of go from the gums up, gums up to remove the food, because when you're going back and forth, all you're doing is just mixing the bacteria in the same space. Michelle: You're not moving it up. So just wanted to ask you what you thought about that. Katie: Oh, yeah, I mean, you can, you can do that. Sure, it's fine. The, the point of brushing the teeth, you know, what I always tell people is, the saying is brush your teeth, but what we're really saying is brush the gum line. And so, plaques sits on our, two places. One is it sits on our gum line. That's where it starts to accumulate. Katie: Then it also sits on top of the teeth in the little grooves. So to prevent cavities, you want to brush the tops of the teeth to get everything, get all the food out of the grooves of the teeth. But the most important thing, especially to prevent gum inflammation is to brush along the gum line of the teeth. Katie: And the goal of that is to disrupt the biofilm. So sure, if you're brushing up like that's great, you're brushing it away from the gums. But what you really want to do is just do whatever you can to disrupt that biofilm because you're going to spit it out. Once you get the plaque [00:38:00] biofilm disrupted, it's loose. Katie: You're going to spit it out in the sink. You know, I can't even get people to brush twice a day for two minutes, let alone having them do something as technique sensitive as that. So I just tell people angle your toothbrush at 45 degrees. Right at the gum line. Use an electric toothbrush because it'll be gentle. Katie: Don't get a hard, hard or medium bristled toothbrush. Very light pressure. Plaque is so soft. You don't have to use any pressure. You just want to disrupt that biofilm along the gum line. Spit it out. Rinsing afterwards is great. Luff, you know, obviously everyone needs to floss every day. , and then tongue scraping is really important. Michelle: Awesome. This was great information. I'm so happy that I had you on today. So this is just such great information. So for people who want to learn more about you and read your book, how can they find you? Katie: Yeah. So, , they can follow me on Instagram. I'm pretty good at, at, , responding to the DMS on Instagram. , so [00:39:00] katyleedds on Instagram. My website is also katyleedds. I do Salivary testing for fertility patients. And so if someone wants to check their microbiome and see if they have the bacteria that impact, , Fertility, we do saliva tests for them remotely. Katie: , and then my book is called Saved by the Mouth. They can get it off my website or on Amazon. Michelle: Well, Dr. Lee, it was such a pleasure talking to you. I really enjoy your mind and picking your brain I just love how well balanced your information is and, and also just, it's priceless. It's so important. Katie: Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity

Allison is a Traditional Chinese Medicine Practitioner and Integrative Health Practitioner based out of Vancouver British Columbia. She is a fellow of the American Acupuncture and TCM Board of Reproductive Medicine (ABORM) and a member of the Obstetrical Acupuncture Association (OBAA). With additional training in fertility and reproductive health as well as her personal experience with stage 3 endometriosis, Allison is particularly passionate about treating endometriosis and chronic pelvic pain. Website: https://www.seaofqihealing.com/ Instagram: @sea_of_qi_healing Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sea_of_qi_healing For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ Transcript: Michelle:[00:00:00]Welcome to the podcast, Alison. Allison:Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Michelle: Well, I'm so excited to have you on and I thoroughly enjoy your Instagram, by the way. Allison: Oh, thank you. Michelle: you guys got to check out her Instagram. I have it in the episode notes. You have so much great information. Allison: Oh, thank Michelle: You're, you're really knowledgeable about your topic. Allison: Yeah, I, love doing any kind of, I love the social media part. I love educating. I love trying to have like a fun humorous spin on it too. So I have fun with my social media. Michelle: Awesome. So for the listeners , I would love it. If you can give us a bit about your background and how your own personal journey really got you to the work that you're doing. Allison: Sure. So I'm an acupuncturist and integrative health practitioner based out of Vancouver, B. C. And I have, special interest in kind of fertility, reproductive health, hormone health, menstrual cycle stuff. I was kind of thrown into that field of work upon graduating school. And[00:01:00]that's kind of when I fell in love with it, when I started learning more about the menstrual cycle and hormones and fertility. Allison: And I realized how much there is to know and how, how many, People who menstruate don't know about their hormones and fertility and so I thought it was such an important aspect of health to to educate more on and it wasn't until a few years into my practice that I was actually diagnosed with my own kind of hormone issues as well. Allison: So that's when I was diagnosed with gynecological condition and Andever since then, I've just been obsessed with learning everything I can about endometriosis and hormones and trying to help people that are kind of in the same shoes that I am. Michelle:  So,so tell us, well, how, how did you actually get into it? Did you, did you work for somebody who specialized in fertility? Michelle: When you got out of school, Allison: Yeah, so the clinic that I wanted to work at that I was kind of interning atin transitioning[00:04:00]into that was their kind of their their bread and butter. So they did a lot of fertility and women's health. And so upon graduating and starting to work there, it was just kind of part of my education of like all my program. Allison: You know, extended learning and mentorships and stuff were under people that specialized in fertility, so I had this, like, really great knowledge base and, you know, experience right off the bat, which was really crucial for specializing in this, and it was, yeah, it really, really helped a lot. Michelle: that's awesome And so I know that we hear a lot of common myths I mean one of the things I think that was eye opening for me is like Menstrual cycle like pms and all of the things that we have are actually not normal Even though they're common you don't realize this until you learn what you learn And that's when you're like, oh my god, this is actually not normal and it's It's an imbalance and we can work on that. Michelle: Like it almost feels like we just accept it as reality. So I'd love it if you could talk about some of the common myths[00:05:00]that you see and like, let's bust them. Allison: Yeah. I feel like that's a really huge one that like PMS and period pain is normal. And like to an extent, likea little bit of PMS, like a little bit of menstrual discomfort to an extent can be normal. I mean, your body's doing, you know, a very physical thing, but if there's like really severe PMS, that's really disrupting your quality of life. Allison: If there's really painful cramps, that's impacting your ability to go out with your friends or work or any of that, that's a, that's absolutely a sign that something is wrong, that there's a hormonal issue, there's inflammation, there's something else going on that we need to look further. And you're right, we are just kind of like programmed as women as like, this is just how it is. Allison: We just, you know, suck it up and get on with our day and that's just kind of how I feel like a lot of us, especially my generation, we were just kind of programmed to do that. This is just a part of being a woman and this is a normal part of being a woman. But in fact, our period and it's kind of like our monthly report card of how everything in her body is doing. Allison: And[00:06:00]it's such a great visual of like okay, these are my PMS symptoms and this is kind of what it's telling me. And then this is how my periodis. And this is what it looks like. And this is what it feels like. And that's also telling you so much information about your hormones. And I think that's kind of what I really love about Chinese medicine too, because even. Allison: If things are like, you know, normal, according to Western medicine, like I have a lot of patients with really bad cramps that go to their doctor and they're like, well, everything in your blood work is normal. Your ultrasound's normal, but they're still having like debilitating pain. And that's when I think like Chinese medicine. Allison: is really powerful because we'll obviously see like, Oh, you've got no tons of liver cheese stagnation or blood stasis, or I'm seeing so many symptoms of coldin the uterus. And it's almost like really, it's just really empowering. I feel like for the patient too, where it's like, no, we don't see everything like checked off as normal, even though your blood work and ultrasound is okay. Allison: I mean, that's really great too. But for Chinese medicine, we're always looking at[00:07:00]this deeper underlying pattern and all these subtleties. And it's kind of painting this picture of the imbalance. Michelle: Yeah, totally. It's it was really eye opening for me because I had one patient with severe PMS to the point where she was like, I have to avoid people because I'm just not like a kind person around that time. And she was just, and she was actually a friend of mine and I was like, you know what, I'll help you. Michelle: No problem. And so she started coming in And one time she wasn't trying to get pregnant and she was like, she thought she was going to be late because she was like, I'm not getting any of my symptoms and I'm supposed to get them right around this time. Something's off. And then all of a sudden she just gets her period. Michelle: She goes, what? She's like, I just got my period. And I'm like, exactly.I'm like, Allison: I love that. Michelle: G is flowing really freely right now. That's why.Allison: Yeah. That's like the magic of Chinese medicine. Michelle:Totally! Allison:The surprise Michelle: total flow. Yes,[00:08:00]exactly. It's like the flow, Allison: Yeah, your period should kind of sneak up a little bit on you. Yeah. Michelle: Yeah. I mean, you do feel, you know, you definitely like feel your body's cues and the same thing with ovulation. When you get really in tune with your body, it is important to be able to like pick up on the details, but it shouldn't be so severe to the point where you can't, like you said, you can't deal with normal life events. Allison: Mm hmm. Yeah, definitely. Michelle:So what are some of the most common things that you see when itcomes to the menstrual cycle irregularities? Regarding fertility,Allison: Yeah, so there's a lot of different patterns and that's kind of the really funpart about Chinese medicine is that we're kind of like little detectives and we're like piecing together every symptom and kind of painting this picture of what's going on internally with the patient. So I mean, like each organ system has its own characteristics and they all kind of play a role in fertility and overall health. Allison: Because we don't really[00:09:00]think of in Chinese medicine as, Oh,the reproductive organs are just their own specific thing. It's kind of the wholebody has has a, has a play in it. So like what you're talking about, the liver chi, the liver chi is so tied to menstrual health. I am working with liver chi day in and day out when I'm working with fertility and endometriosis and hormone health. Allison: So the liver chi is like really, really important to makesure that everything's moving smoothly in the body and that's emotionally and physically. And then like the spleen chi and stomach chi in the digestive system is also really important because we want to make sure that your body is able to get all the nutrients that it needs and there's not a lot of inflammation there. Allison: We want to make sure the blood is moving really smoothly, like blood stagnation, cheese stagnation digestive deficiencies. I see that a lot. And then the kidney organ system is also really tied to fertility in Chinese medicine because it's kind of like, gives you that kind of DNA deep level energy to the egg cells and the sperm cells. Allison: And so making sure that those are really healthy because a lot of poor lifestyle or[00:10:00]genetics can impact the kidney energy system. So we always want to kind of help support the kidney energy with fertility. Michelle:Yeah, for sure. What I find really interesting and hopeful about really how Chinese medicine talks about the kidneys and talks about like the essence is, is that there's like pre heaven and post heaven. And so yes, pre heaven, we can't really do much about because that's pretty much what comes from our parents. Michelle: But post heaven is really how we choose to live our life. And we've seen that we can actually reverse age like biological age through the choices that we make. And I find that to be great. It's very empowering to know that your choices can make a difference on your body. Allison: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that kind of goes back to where I really feel like Chinese medicine is such an empowering medicine because there's so much that you can do, diet, lifestyle, herbs, supplements, acupuncture, all those things really can have such a huge positive impact. And it's kind of like, yeah, I love the pre heaven and post heaven. Allison:We are[00:11:00]kind of given what we're got with like our basic genetic blueprint, but our post heaven essence is like epigenetics, where we have the huge percentage of, you know, influence over our health, no matter what our genes are saying and we have so much influence over that that part of it, and I think Chinese medicine plays a huge role in that. Michelle: And do you find that there is a correlation because I mean, listen, we're living in a, a very toxic life, like the environment, everything's just like around us and the foods that we eat, the extra ingredients that they put in it's it's the reality is that you really have to be careful on what you expose yourself to, what kind of cosmetics. Michelle: and the endocrine disruptors, I feel like that really bogs down the liver and It weakens its ability to do its job. And then sometimes I'll see things like Fibroids or certain things kind of popping up because the body's not able to likereally clear up the toxins. Michelle: And sometimes I'll find that the[00:12:00]person is working in an environment that has more toxins than normal. And so we have to kind of work extra, a little extra to release that or clear that out. And even for IVF, I like to do that as well. Right after retrieval do some kind of like very mild, you know, nothing too harsh But like mild liver detox to just help the body release the excess hormones, you know Because I really feel like that aspect of it can really impact the way the reproductive health expresses itself. Allison:yeah, I completely agree. I think there's a lot of, a lot of things in our world right now that are impacting our liver. And we are, as Chinese medicine practitioners, seeing that reflected a lot in liver cheese stagnation. And I think that's why there's so much PMS and period pain and infertility kind of that's pretty rampant because we are seeing, like I don't think I have a single patient where theirliver didn't need like a little bit of support in the Western sense and in the Chinese. Allison: medicine sense.[00:13:00]So yeah, I do love that you that you do payattention to that. And especially like post IVF or something, when all those medications you're it's really working the liver and not that those are bad medications at all because they're really useful and they're doing really wonderful things for patients to help reach their, their goals. Allison: But yeah, you're right. I do think there is a place where we can kind of help support the liver, especially post IVF. Michelle: Yeah for sure. So as far as endometriosis, I know that like gut health is really, really, really important when it comes to endometriosis. So the inflammation, how that impacts leaky gut. So what are some of the correlations or like the patterns, not necessarily just with Chinese medicine, and you could talk about that as well, but like just some of the links that you've noticed or the things that tend to go hand in hand. Michelle: With endometriosis. Allison: Yeah, that's a really good question. I love that you asked that because endometriosis is such a full body disease, like it's not just[00:14:00]something that's happening in the pelvis. So yeah, the gut connection is huge. I find that to be honestly, like one of the biggest roots of something that we need to focus on and kind of like rectify with a lot of my patients with endometriosis because the gut is such a foundational pillar of health. Allison: And so if there's anything going on there with like leaky gut ormicrobiome or their subclinical gut infections or SIBO or whatever is going on, then we really need to work on. Kind of correcting the dysbiosis because not onlydoes that create a lot of inflammation, but there's also such a huge microbiome and bacterial component to endometriosis. Allison: Like, there's so much research coming out about how people withendometriosis have different vaginal and uterine microbiomes. And all of our microbiomes in our body are connected. So I really do feel like if we focus a lot on gut health and working on any kind of issues that are super apparent there, then it makes such a huge difference in like overall inflammatory levels, which are totally going to[00:15:00]help with a lot of the endosymptoms and the endo pain.  Allison:But also kind of helping with the microbiome component is really important for fertility because we do know a good vaginal and uterine microbiomeis super important for fertility, but I also find it really helpful for endosymptoms. And then I also love looking at the nervous system because I find that if we're kind of like, if we've got some like circadian rhythm dysfunction, because we're not sleeping well or we don't have good sleep hygiene or if we're just kind of continuously operating out of fight or flight mode and we're just never in parasympathetic mode, that's going to totally cause a lot of inflammation in the body and that's going to absolutely affect your endometriosis. Allison: So those are two things that I find. a lot of people with endo can benefit from working on. And that's, yeah, correcting any gut dysbiosis and really working on gut health. And then also really working with the nervous system. Like we really need to work on this chronic stress epidemic and like having a good circadian rhythm. Allison: I've been doing a[00:16:00]lot of, I've been like looking a lot into like the cortisol awakening response lately. I've been really nerding out about it and how it's how your cortisol levels like really need to have that initial spike in the morning. And not only for you to like feel good and get out of bed, but also it's areally important indicator of like inflammatory levels in your body. Allison: And there's also a really important autoimmune component. And we do know that endometriosis has this kind of auto-immune overlap with it. And so any of my patients that I am hearing like, Oh, how do you feel like when you get out of bed? Like, how long does it take you to kind of feel alive in the morning? Allison: Once you get out of bed, if it's like, Oh, two hours and five cups of coffee. I definitely know that there is some cortisol awakening response that we need to kind of work on in order to like really help with the immune and inflammatory stuff. So, yeah, those are a couple of things that I'm always looking at for my endo patients. Michelle: That's really great information. Vaginal microbiome I think is huge because I actually was at a mega spore[00:17:00]biotic on the microbiome labs.They had a little conference and I listened to a lecture by Dr. Jolene Brighton and she was talking about the vaginal microbiome and Allison: Oh, I love her. Michelle: She's amazing.Michelle: She always has great information. She just always delivers. And so she talked about that and she said that in, in Spain, they'll always check the vaginal microbiome. And especially when people are doing IVF and transfers specifically. And I had one of my patients going to Spain. Michelle: A lot of people go to Spain. I mean, they save money. The only thing is they lose money with the flights and everything, but they're really good doctors and like the clinics are great. And so what they do is they actually have, I'm almost like always on a protocol to check their vaginal microbiome. Michelle: They always check it before transfers and they have these women going on vaginal suppositories for the microbiome to support it. And I had. A recent patient who was like advanced[00:18:00]maternal age and she's pregnant. But she was on the suppositories. Michelle: They were checking and making sure because they said that she was mentioning that there's a link between, I guess, imbalanced vaginal microbiomes, a little different in the sense that it's. Like, you don't want diversity. You want it to be more like a specific type of strain. She was saying that there's a connection between a poor balance of the vaginal microbiome and recurrent miscarriages, unexplained infertility and failed transfers. And that's huge. That's so important. And nobody really checks here. Like. In our world, North America. Allison: Yeah. Well, actually in Vancouver, where I am, there's one clinic that does for some patients. And I, I have like the past, yeah, the past year. So I've been having a lot more patients do some microbiome testing. They'll do the swab. It's called the Emma Ellis. I think that they do it here. In in a couple of the clinics and they'll do the probiotic suppositories. Allison: And I honestly like tell my patients to go get them[00:19:00]too and jerk them where they can find them because I think it's always a benefit. Like it's not, it's such a harmless intervention. It can only help like and it's, they're so easy to do. It's so affordable. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and it does improve transfer results and pregnancy rates and everything, and so, yeah, I'm, I'm a huge fan of  Michelle: no brainer. Allison: testing for fertility. Allison:Yeah, Michelle: Yeah. It's a no brainer. And I think that it's so important and I, I'm so glad you brought it up. And I'm glad to know that some places are doing it places. I haven't seen it yet. I haven't seen that to be like really. And I've been actually running it for some of my patients. But I'm glad to Allison: Oh, nice. Michelle:people are starting to do that. Michelle: That's great. And then as far as a nervous system and circadian rhythm, that's huge because it's kind of like, I always look at it almost as like the second-hand is going to impact the hour hand. So like the second hand could be like our 24-hour cycle versus our 30 day cycle or[00:20:00]infradian rhythm. So the circadian rhythm impacts the infradian rhythm. Michelle: So it's important to have a good circadian rhythm. Interestingly, if I lookback, I had, I also have a history of We all started as patients, a lot of us. So I have a Allison: Yeah, right? Ah. Michelle:I did was I, I used to have the worst circadian rhythm. I used to not beable to wake up in the mornings. Michelle: Like I would, if left to my own devices, I would stay up until like, I would sleep until 2 PM some days when I was like younger in my twenties, andthen I'd. I'd stay up till two, three, four sometimes. I mean, I was just completely off and I don't know, I always blamed it on college or whatever, but it was just definitely my rhythm. Michelle: It was just the way my body was. And now I'm much more regular just over time. And it kind of synchronized with like my, menstrual cycle. So is that something that you see often?[00:21:00]Allison: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, and it always kind of goes back to like, Chinese medicine roots of like, we, we need to sync with nature. Like, when the sun's down, that's our yin time. That's not the time to do a lot of work or exercise. That'sthe time that we're supposed to be slowing down. We're supposed to be asleep.  Allison: Like, I'm always coaching my patients, like, I want you in bed. by 10pm, 11pm at the latest. I do not care if, like, you're naturally a night owl. Like, that is the kind of ideal Chinese medicine bedtime. Because we really do get those better hours of sleep in the earlier hours of the night. We get that deep, restful sleep. Allison: And it really does make a huge difference. I've been, yeah, personally, like, really prioritizing regular sleep cycle the past couple years. And it's been, like, revolutionary for me for how I feel like mood and energy, but also I my endosymptoms and I also had an autoimmune disease. And so it's been really helpful for that. Allison: So I think it's really easy to overlook the basics of like, well, I'm gettingmy eight hours, even if I'm going to bed at 2am or,[00:22:00]you know, sleep, I'm getting enough, I'm getting about six, seven hours. That should be enough. But it's like really irregular times. Like your body can't really cope with that. Allison: And I think it's really important that we go back to these like. Super basic principles of like, are you sleeping on time? Are you eating at regular intervals?Are you doing regular movement? Like these really basic things, these small habits really add up to make such a huge difference in health problems and especially even like super complex chronic health problems. Allison: It can be really revolutionary. Michelle:Oh yeah. And there's definitely studies that have been linked to irregular periods and also infertility when it comes to having night shifts. So like night shift hours, it really impacts the reproductive health. So it's really fascinating because it's not just the hours. It's really when it's the, when. Michelle: not just the amount. Allison: Mm hmm. Michelle: So I studied Ayurvedic medicine. That was also very eye opening when it comes to like really understanding the rhythms of nature and how[00:23:00]our bodies synchronize and also the elements of food and really understanding like how our bodies do better. Michelle: It's almost like really understanding the time cycle of the day and optimizing it. And when it comes to intermittent fasting. Fasting itself is actually really, it could be very beneficial if done right. And I want to say that like really,really in strong words, if done right, because I personally, from what I understoodand how much I've, I've learned as far as the sun goes, like the sun helps our acne, which is our digestifier. Michelle: So if we, the best time to eat really is during the day. So breakfast lunch, lunch should be the largest meal of the day and that's when you should have those difficult to digest proteins and have that like during that time because at that time the sun is at its highest Where the day is the most young it could be and so you want that young energy that[00:24:00]fire to be supported by nature's rhythms to help your own digestive fire and And then what you could do if you want to fast is fast at night versus in the morning. Michelle: And that's what a lot of people do. They'll fast in the morning and it's been shown that it could possibly not be great for women because it's been mostly studied on men and they have a completely different rhythm. So that's something that I always suggest. If you really do feel that you need to fast for a little bit and have like a little break digestive wise, it's better to do it when the sun goes down. Allison: Yeah, I completely agree. And I do feel the same about fasting. Like, I, to an extent, I like fasting, like, you know, a good maybe 12, 13 hours, maybe 14 hours for some metabolically flexible people, but I've always been a huge component of breakfast just because, in Chinese medicine, like, the stomach channel, time, is in that morning, and that's kind of always when historically theysay that's a great time to eat,[00:25:00]and I feel like, yeah, this huge intermittent fasting kind of craze can be good to an extent and when utilized properly, but I'm always going to go back to, like, what have we been doing for 2, 000 years that has been working really well? Allison: Like, I think there's a lot of parts to Chinese medicine where yeah, a lot of the health trends and health fads are just not going to resonate, and that's kind of,like, always my good reminder of like, okay, well, let's go back to what nature and what has been working for humans for, you know, thousands of years. Allison: Right. Michelle: think about like the light cause like light light hygiene, cause you want to call it, you want, you want to get exposure to light early in the morning so that your body knows. Cause that's how our bodies respond. Our bodies really respond to light. So I always kind of, I always prescribe this, like go early in the morning, get some sunlight while it's safe early, early. Michelle: And then of course, obviously protect your skin if you're skin sensitive and especially later on, but like early in the morning, it's easier. For your body to process.[00:26:00]I almost kind of compare this in my mind as like a hose of water. So you want water. When it's trickling, it's much easier to drink. Michelle: And then like in the middle of the day, when it's like shooting out, you're, you're going to choke. It's too much. So it's better to have it early in the morning. We're able to really get the vitamins. And I remember my grandmother always telling me early morning sun will give you the most vitamins. Michelle: That's how she explained it. The most nutrients. And she was right. She was right. She said that. She's like early morning sun. That's what you want. And so, and not only that, it also anchors the circadian rhythm and then also getting moonlight. So like not having the fake light, dimming the light at night, and that could really, so that's why I would say like light hygiene is to kind of dim it at night so that we go back to our roots. Michelle: And this is just, it's what nature has intended for us. Allison: Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. All of that. I mean, it's always a good reminder to go back to[00:27:00]nature of, like, the super basics. When it's dark, like, it should be dark. It should be quiet. It should be in. It should be asleep. And then, yeah, during the daytime, that's when things are active, including our digestive system. Allison: Like, it seems, yeah, nature was designed for it to be pretty clear to us,like, what we're supposed to be doing. Michelle: Yeah. For sure. And what are your thoughts about taking melatonin supplements? Allison: think it can be helpful. I mean, I am not a huge and high dose melatonin. So I'm more of like the one to three milligrams because that's kind of akin to what is naturally produced in the body. There are a lot of there's some research that shows that a high dose can be good for endometriosis, like even up to 10 milligrams because of its antioxidant effect. Allison: But I, I've, I've only had it be helpful for a small group of patients, like not a lot. So it's not my favorite one to go to because I just, I don't think that it's going to be hugely beneficial for the circadian rhythm. But I do find it[00:28:00]helpful for some patients and I love it as like a general antioxidant. Allison: If your levels are kind of low because you know, we're not, we have so much light in the night time and stuff. So our bodies are naturally kind of, I bet a bit melatonin deficient. If it's, if you're taking a decent dosage of like one to three milligrams and it's really helping you sleep and you're noticing a huge difference, awesome. Allison: But I also see a lot of patients where it doesn't do a lot for them or it makes them feel groggy. And so I think it's a really case by case dependent. Like if it works for you and you're on a good dosage, awesome. If it's not, like I'm not too hard pressed, like there's a lot of other alternatives. I like, I love a lot of adaptogens and stuff. Allison: too, that can kind of help reset their circadian rhythm too. So, yeah, it's not my absolute favorite go to but there is like some really good research with it for fertility and egg quality because of its antioxidant effect. So I don't hate it. Michelle: Yeah. Well, the great thing is, is that getting that early morning sunlight induces cellular melatonin. So it actually brings that out of you, so it is a great way to get that, Allison: that is true. Michelle: natural light,[00:29:00]but also through light therapy. So light therapy can help that as well. Michelle: So is there anything else that you're like passionate about, excited about that you're like learning about recently that you're finding is really helpful for your patients? Allison: Besides the cortisol awakening response, which I've been really nerding out about and just like cortisol in general, I find it's such an underrated hormone and people are either like, Oh, we want to squash it or we want to raise it. But that's like so much more complex and intricate than that. So I've been really kind of diving into that and like some more Dutch test stuff. Allison: I find, I am always just learning, I love learning so much about estrogen metabolism and methylation because I find that a lot of patients who are struggling with reproductive health stuff and fertility and especially endo and stuff a lot of them are, we're just not metabolizing and methylating estrogen correctly. Allison: And so it's, that's causing a lot of symptoms. And so I've been really kind of doing a lot of research into that, which I've been finding so interesting. So yeah, I feel like that's kind[00:30:00]of, yeah, liver, cortisol, all that kind of Michelle: stuff, liver stuff again. So what, what have you. Allison: Always back to the liver. Michelle: Yes. What have you seen is effective for estrogen metabolism. Allison: yeah, well, it depends, like, at which phase people are having the issues. If it's, like the metabolizing into the 4 2 OH, or if it's, like, the actual methylationprocess, because there's different, you know, supplements and herbs that all, I'll recommend. So that's why I really love testing. So we can really like see exactly where the issue is, or if it's in phase three estrogen metabolism, where we really need to focus on the gut health again because there's too much beta glucuronidase,that's recirculating estrogen levels and stuff. Allison: And so there's different things that we can do for that. But yeah, I just love like, The basic things that your liver needs is like magnesium, B vitamins enough protein, enough iron. Like there's some really basic stuff that I think, if a lot of if we're just really focusing on through like healthy nutrition and stuff, then alot of that stuff can be helped. Allison: [00:31:00]So we don't, honestly, we don't even need like, crazy amounts of supplements and herbs if there's these issues going on. Sometimes your body just needs like a really basic levels of magnesium and B vitamins and hydration and amino acids and stuff and then all these things can kind of work efficiently. Michelle:Yeah. Sometimes I find just warm water and lemon on an empty stomach every day because lemon is like the sour taste for the liver. Just something like that. It's such a simple, it's so simple. It's almost too simple that people think it's like, how could this work? It's too simple, Allison: Yeah. Michelle: amazing that I find. Allison: Yeah, that's kind of how I feel about like castor oil packs, too. Michelle: Yeah. Oh, yeah. So talk about those because that that's actually really effective I find and moving like the lymph and moving that stagnation. Allison: Absolutely. Yeah, I'm a huge fan of castor oil packs, especially like after my patients have endosurgery where they have laparoscopic abdominal surgery to remove the endo lesions. I love using[00:32:00]castor oil packs post operatively to help like reduce scar tissue formation and to really help with the healing process and the blood circulation and lymphatic movement and everything. Allison: So castor oil packs are basically you apply castor oil to the abdomen or liver and then you place a heat pack on it and you kind of just relax with the heat. To as the oil kind of seeps into your skin and does all the magic that it needs to. And it is such like a simple intervention just like warm lemon water in the morning that I find is just such an easy thing to do. Allison: It's really cost effective, it's really relaxing. Like it doesn't take a lot of effort. You can do it like while you're watching tv. Like it's a really easy thing to kind of incorporate into, into your life. But I do find it really, really helpful for like reducing period cramps, helping people to recover post abdominal surgery for liver detoxification. Allison: Like done regularly, it can, you know, have a lot of really positive impact. Michelle: for sure And what are your thoughts on when to do it on the menstrual cycle because I do hear like conflicting perspectives on when[00:33:00]you should do it and then you can also move it at certain times to the liver rather than the abdomen. Allison: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, so I'll never recommend it during menstruation, or like at least during your heavy days because I do think it can cause a little bit too much blood circulation and that just might increase the bleeding. And then I'll never recommend it after ovulation if you're trying to conceive. Allison: So if there's any chance of pregnancy, we kind of just want to like take care of that like precious area. We don't want to do anything to moving or detoxing. Like that's even like a point in the menstrual cycle where I won't do too many abdominal points. Like I kind of just like let your body do what it needs todo. Allison:Like it knows how to do it. I'll do a lot more distal stuff to kind of help with blood circulation and hormone balance and whatever we're working on. But yeah, anytime that there's any chance of pregnancy, I like to leave the lower belly alone. Michelle: No, it's true. I, I do the same thing. Actually. I do like right after ovulation. I tell them not to do it and they're like, and it pretty much[00:34:00]minimizes the window to like, after period, you know, in between that point, but I, usually like to be a little more conservative on that as well, unless you're trying to prepare your body ahead of time. Allison: I'm definitely on the cautious side. Michelle:Yeah, me too. You might as well. Yeah, totally. So this is great. Great conversation. I'm sure we can keep talking about all kinds of topics and questions.And so if people want to work with you, so you do Dutch testing, you do sometesting and you do some online work. Allison: Yeah, so I'm CFG healing on all the social medias and my website. I'm seeing patients in person in Vancouver and Burnaby, British Columbia, and I do see a small amount of patients virtually. So if you're elsewhere and want to work with me, we can do some telehealth. Michelle: Fantastic. Well, Alison, it was awesome speaking to you. And thank you so much for your insight and information. And guys, I[00:35:00]definitely recommend you check out her Instagram because it's like loads of information. You're going to learn so much. I'm learning so much because I love really collaborating and talking to other practitioners because you can always learn something new. Michelle: That's what I find. You just can always learn something because everybody has a different perspective. Allison: Yeah, that's so true, and I'm an avid regular listener to your podcast, and I could say the same. I always learn so much from you and all the people that you interview, so thank you for doing what you do. Michelle: Oh, that's awesome. Well, I admire you. So that's really nice to hear that coming from you. So thank you so much, Alison, for coming on today. Allison:Thanks, Michelle.            

Kaely McDevitt is a Registered Dietitian specializing in nutrition for women's health. She owns a virtual private practice where she and her team help their clients reclaim their energy, optimize fertility and overcome hormone symptoms through personalized nutrition. Having experienced the pitfalls of a conventional approach to women's health firsthand, Kaely is passionate about empowering women to build health from a place of connection: to self, to nature and to community. Links: Kaely's Gift: https://kaelyrd.kartra.com/page/foptin Instagram: @kaelyrd Website: https://www.kaelyrd.com Doors are closing soon for my Wholesome Fertility Transformation Program! Join us today! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/Fertility-Transformation-Group-Coaching For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ Transcript: Michelle:[00:00:00]Welcome to the podcast. Kaely: Thanks so much for having me, Michelle. Michelle: love to have you on love to talk to dietitians, nutritionists, and I would love for you to share your backgrounds and how you got into women's health and fertility. Kaely: Sure. Yeah. So I'm a registered dietitian and I went that path with my career thinking that I would work in sports nutrition. It's what I was passionate about at the time. I kind of grew up as an athlete and as fate would have it, I dealt with a whole bunch of hormone health issues while I was in school, becoming a dietitian and was spending all of my free time outside of school trying to understand more about how the female body worked, how the menstrual cycle worked, the influence of hormones on nutrition and ultimately had a bit of a crisis of faith of what I was learning because it really wasn't helping me optimize my hormone health. Kaely: A big part of my story was actually some pretty significant symptoms related to birth control. So shortly after getting my credentials, came off birth control,[00:01:00]navigated that whole chaotic season of my life of getting back into hormone balance. And when I looked up from that, I realized how a lot of women, friends, family members even, were hungry for nutrition for women's health specifically. Kaely: Because almost no nutrition research is ever done on women. So pivoted away from sports nutrition to women's health a little over a decade ago, and have been running a virtual private practice where my team and I help women all over the country end hormone symptoms, optimize fertility, get pregnant, and really just feel at home in their bodies again. Kaely: And I'm very thankful for that pivot because I can't imagine working in another space. Michelle: Amazing. I love it. I find working with women personally, like so rewarding, especially when it comes to fertility health, it's really amazing because the thing is, you know, what you're talking about is so important food is like at the center of everything, but here's the thing. I think what a lot of people think. Michelle: Is that their symptoms are just[00:02:00]genetics or it's just something that they have to deal with and little is talked about. How our choices and food choices can make a difference. And the thing is part of like having a choice is really knowing what to look for because sometimes you don't really know that you even have a choice. Kaely: Yep, totally. Michelle: And when you talked about, you talked about birth control, that's like abig thing too, because I think that that's another aspect. I mean, that's really beenmy story is that I didn't realize that I had a choice with my regular periods and theonly choice I was given. By professionals that I turned to was the birth control pill for many, many years until, and I always knew intuitively that there must besomething else that's out there that's better because I'm like, there's just no way that this cannot be fixed. Michelle: And I knew thatit was a bandaid because obviously if you take it off, it's right back to what it was. And the doctor told me that. So I remember thinking like, this[00:03:00]just doesn't make sense. However, I didn't have a better option at the time. So a lot of people are in that same position. They really don't think that there's a better option. Michelle: And a couple of things with the birth control pill, number one is that when you're on it for a long time, it can impact. Your body's nutrients and how you process nutrients that can impact your gut. I mean, there's so many things So I want to start with that because I mean there's so much to unpack but like I want to start with that what have you seen like that? Michelle: The pill does to the body What are the things that it depletes? What are the things that you like to address? After a person's been on the birth control pill for so many years. Kaely: Yeah, absolutely. So we don't have a ton of research on this yet. I think it's growing slowly. But what I've seen in practice and even experienced personally was a depletion and a lot of really important nutrients. So at the time that I came off birth control, I was working for a corporate wellness[00:04:00]company that did Micronutrient testing for their corporate clients, which was a little unusual for the time, but really cool. Kaely: And so I'm like, I'm a dietician. I'm following all these food rules that I was running marathons. I thought I was gonna have this like beautiful report come backand it came back and I was deficient in more things than any of the clients that I had been helping. And it was a big aha moment for me to start digging into the influence of birth control on nutrients. Kaely: And what I've continued to see over the last 10 years in practice is a big depletion in our B vitamins. So kind of the whole B complex, a lot of antioxidants are lower too. So we'll see things like vitamin E, vitamin C and selenium be lower post birth control. Magnesium and zinc are commonly lower post birth control. Kaely: And when we think about the nutrients involved in ovulation, in fertility, in being able to carry a pregnancy, I mean, everything that I mentioned is part of that. It's part of energy production and protecting an egg and[00:05:00]follicle health.So those not only can contribute to a lot of the symptoms post birth control, butdefinitely have an impact on, on fertility post birth control too.Michelle:Yeah. No doubt. And what about as far as gut health have you seen witha birth control pill? Kaely: Yep. So we see a change in the microbiome with hormonal birth controluse, and it's a shift away from gram positive to gram negative bacteria, which caninfluence the way that we recycle estrogen in the body. So it can contribute to that state of estrogen dominance. We see an increase in like the gap junction between cells in the gut or a common term for that would be leaky gut. Kaely: So more likelihood to have systemic inflammation, more likelihood to have inappropriate reactions to food post birth control. And then another big area thatgets taxed while on birth control is the liver, gallbladder, and kind of greater biliary tree. You know, the liver is already an[00:06:00]extremely busy organ and it is having to work over time to process and filter the hormones coming in from birth control. Kaely: And those hormones influence the contractility and the composition of the bile, so we see that whole biliary tree impacted by birth control too, which of course influences the way that we're able to get excess hormones out of the body,the way that we're able to absorb fats from our food and our fat soluble vitamins. Kaely: So those would be the main areas. So nutrients. gut and then liver and gallbladder health. Michelle: And what are some of the protocols? And I'm sure similar to my work. Every person is unique, so the protocols are gonna change depending on the person and the condition. There are symptoms as well and like just how their body reacts but typically if somebody's been on the birth control pill for a very long time what are some of the things that you suggest for them to do? Kaely: Yes. So we'll start with food, right? Being in the nutrition space,[00:07:00]we always want to start there. And I always say that nutrient dense whole food diet is non-negotiable when we're talking about coming off of birth control and recovering from However long that season of life was so sticking with food and in the real form as often as we can. Kaely: So good quality proteins, nice pigmented produce, healthy fats alot of just micronutrient rich foods to help accommodate for the deficiencies that came from the pill. So we would start with that, the foundation of the diet. We'd work on supporting the gut. So looking at the types of fibers in our diet, potentially leveraging some probiotics support. Kaely: In my experience, spore based probiotics have been really helpful at trying to adjust the changes that happen post birth control. And then I love to bring insome liver gallbladder support too. So maybe we'll do things like castor oil packsor bitters or bring more bitter foods into the diet to help get that good bile flow going again. Kaely: Those would be my kind of three areas to start with.[00:08:00] Michelle: And, okay, so let's talk about spore based probiotics, because a lot of people listening might not realize the difference between the probiotics. And I, I personally love them as well. I think they're great. And just talk about the differences and why that would be more beneficial over the typical probiotics that you'll find. Kaely: Sure. Yeah. So spore based probiotics are delivered almost identical to how we would find them in nature in the soil, which I think is a cool and important detail here. So they're going to be encapsulated inside that spore, which means they have protection from our digestive process. So they're a lot less likely to get broken down by stomach acid in the stomach and actually make it to their target site, which is the large intestines. Kaely: One of the main complaints of your kind of run of the mill probiotics is that they're either not even viable, you know, at room temperature, or that once they'reingested into a body that is warm and has stomach acid and digestive enzymes, itgets broken down and denatured.[00:09:00]So the spore based probiotics, in my experience, have just been a lot more effective at actually changing the terrain of the large intestines and actually a lot better tolerated to what, which is what I've seen because they're making it to the large intestines and not the small intestines where they might contribute to some symptoms. Michelle: Right. For sure. And for SIBO, that's like the big one because sometimes people with SIBO, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, don't really do well with the type of probiotics we used to use because they already have too much bacteria so that it can also exacerbate it. Michelle: So. Yeah, I personally love spore base because it goes right to the targeted area and I've seen a lot of amazing results with my patients as well. Kaely: Absolutely. Michelle: And then another thing that you brought up, which I thought was really interesting is the bitter taste. So it's interesting because we do take a lot of supplements sometimes and those supplements are, have[00:10:00]certain bitters are supposed to be good for your liver. However, The taste of bitter is also part of the medicine, tasting it. Kaely: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we've got those taste receptors all over our tongue and they're not there for no reason when they interact with bitter compounds in foods. They're actually stimulating our digestive juices and, you know, ancestrally speaking, bitter foods would have been a lot more common. I think the modern human palate has been refined to the most degree of comfort. Kaely: So we've like stripped the bitter stuff out of our diet. We like cut the thingsout of our food that we don't want anymore. And so we're missing out on that interplay of bitter foods and how that actually really supports digestion and evenblood sugar. So bringing in things like fennel seeds, like that's a really nice DIY bitter is just chewing on a couple of fennel seeds as we're preparing our meal, we could sip some diluted apple cider vinegar and water. Kaely: We could have a splash of cranberry juice and some sparkling water, or we could even[00:11:00]just start to bring in more bitter foods into our day to day, like adding some arugula into our salad mix instead of just spinaches or lettuces. Bringing more citrus zest into things instead of just the fruit. So I think that bitter influencing or including more bitter compounds in our diet as a whole is great. Kaely: And then we can also use bitter tinctures to actually interact with those taste receptors right before meals. Michelle: Yeah, it's it's something that for sure we've like really veered from because we do like our certain tastes. And I think about like Indian restaurants, sometimes you'll find that they have a bunch of, well, they're coated in sweetness, but they have fennel seeds and they have a bunch of seeds for people to have. Michelle: Like at the beginning of the restaurant, so you could take a little bit, putit in your hand or take it afterwards and it helps the digestive process, which Ayurveda is based on really using a lot of spices, to help digestion. And I think that's another[00:12:00]thing that we lost more modern times. Kaely: Yep. Absolutely. We've just like restricted and restricted the acceptable range of flavors to very bland things and lost out on that. Michelle: And also, I mean, another really important aspect is just all of the excess ingredients and fillers and You know, something that is really terrible for a microbiome, which is like thickeners that they use in a lot of processed foods. And it can really make a huge impacton your microbiome, which impacts how youabsorb those nutrients. Kaely: Absolutely. We have a lot of fake foods now in addition to losing out on the nutrient density of food. So we're hungrier than ever for nutrients, even though we're getting more and more processed foods. Michelle: And I tend to see a lot of people with lower progesterone symptomssuch as like mid cycle[00:13:00]spotting or like a shorter luteal phase. What are some of the things that you've seen and what have you, how have you approached that?  Kaely: Yeah, we see a ton of low progesterone in our practice. And actually something that I've said for a number of years now is that it feels like we have an epidemic of low progesterone. And that's because we only make progesterone if we ovulate. And we only ovulate if the body feels safe and has the raw materials that it needs to. Kaely: And, I'd argue that, you know, the lifestyle of the modern woman isn't conducive for safety or nutrient availability either. So, a lot of the main symptoms that we see, like the ones you mentioned, you know, a short luteal phase symptomatic periods, and that's because progesterone helps balance out the effects of estrogen. Kaely: So, without enough of it, we tend to have heavier, more painful, clottier periods. We see fertility issues because progesterone is necessary to carry a[00:14:00]pregnancy, so whether it's not conceiving at all or early miscarriages we see a lot of sleep and digestive symptoms in the luteal phase with lower progesterone. Kaely: And then because there's such a close relationship between progesterone and the thyroid, we see a lot of hypothyroidism as well with low progesterone. Michelle: And also people can in fact, ovulate, but still have low progesterone. Kaely: Absolutely. Yep. And it's all in relation to how much estrogen, right? So we could have true low progesterone or just low progesterone relative to the amount of estrogen at that time. Michelle: So if it's like estrogen dominance Kaely: Right. Michelle: And did you have you ever noticed, see, this is actually something interesting. I had a guest on talking about the menstrual cycle and she talked about how the corpus luteum, which means yellow bodyis yellow because of the, betacarotene..[00:15:00]And so she said that sometimes she will give like a therapeutic dose of beta carotene. Michelle: And I started using it in my practice and I have seen impacts. Now I wouldn't use it for everybody. I also kind of look at it as sort of a more young You know, yin and yang, it's more of like a heating, usually progesterone and kind of the second half of the menstrual cycle is more of a yang phase, which is like amore warm energetic phase of the cycle.Michelle:But if you look at also foods, and I've learned this with Ayurveda, someof the warming foods have warmer colors, which is kind of interesting in its ownbut what are your thoughts on that and have you worked with that in your practice?Kaely:Yeah. Yeah. I, I definitely agree. And I think, you know, vitamin A or betacarotene is one piece of that puzzle, but there's so the corpus luteum is soantioxidant rich or an antioxidant meeting because of the[00:16:00]mitochondrialdemand on that area. So we see a lot of benefit from vitamin a, we see vitamin E being really helpful and then some antioxidants like selenium can be really helpful for that too. Kaely: But yeah, I think if we look at warm foods highly pigmented foods, they tend to be really rich in those nutrients that we're targeting. So I think it makes a lot of sense from like an Ayurvedic perspective too. Michelle: Yeah, and I just think about egg health. I mean, cause ultimately, you know, egg health, it's like the follicle itself. And then that impacts, you know, if you have good healthy eggs, that's going to impact the corpus luteum. I mean, it's like the follicle with the egg, but it's all one part, it's a whole. And so when you're addressing all of those things, it's going to impact. Michelle: All of the different aspects, really, of the menstrual cycle. So as far as fertility goes, what are some of the common symptoms that you[00:17:00]see? The, like the most common symptoms that you'll see with the people that come into your practice. Kaely: Yeah, so for most of our clients that are seeing us for fertility, we've got probably about half of them are on the like proactive side of things they want to start trying to conceive soon, or maybe they've just recently started and realize they wanted to do some like proactive conception planning and make sure that their nutrients Kaely: And then the other half have been trying to conceive for some time, so maybe they have had no successful pregnancies or maybe they've had recurrent miscarriage. We also serve clients that have been through assisted reproductive technologies without success and want to explore things in the functional nutrition space.  Kaely: So we kind of see the whole gamut between, you know, just preparing for that season of life and then those that have been in the trenches[00:18:00]of infertility and want to explore some other options. Michelle: In our pre talk, you were talking about the downfalls of nutrition. What are some of the things that you see in general, like in society? That are impacting people's ability to truly, like, process and then get stronger from within. Kaely: Yeah, I, this is one of the things that I get most soap boxy about because I just personally really relate to it having gone to conventional schooling for nutrition and just seeing firsthand really what's being taught there and, and see how it didn't play out favorably for my own hormones. But if we think about, you know, the women in childbearing years now grew up in like the eighties, nineties. Kaely: 2000s. And there was a new diet being marketed to women, like every other day, something completely different each time we went through a season of like really low fat being the main focus, low fat, low calorie. Then we went through really low carb being the focus and cutting out, you know, even[00:19:00]things like fruits and some starchier vegetables. Kaely: We've just been through a lot of extremes all the while having the message that thinnest is best. For women. So when we take it back to the foundation of fertility, like we've talked about already, this is safety in the body and abundant energy. You know, we can't support a new life. We can't even support the hormone production and ovulation without those things. Kaely: So if we're consistently under eating either from just a caloric perspective or cutting out large amounts of macronutrients, whether it be carbs, proteins, or fats, you know, we can't expect fertility to happen. Unhinged at that point or uninhibited at that point, because we lack safety and nutrient availability. Kaely: And then even just maintaining really unrealistic goals for body composition for women can be a big hindrance for fertility as well. You know, stored body fat is. safety net. So if we have really, really low body fat as females, which would[00:20:00]be the recommendation on your average grocery store tabloid we're going to run into some fertility issues too. Kaely: So I just think between the diet culture and body image messaging that most women grew up with paired with the fact that almost no research in the nutrition space is done on women because we have the variables of hormones that make a laboratory setting, really difficult. We have, you know, half the population that is struggling to figure out how to eat in order to support their own physiology and that confusion and kind of applying what we're seeing other people doing or applying what men are doing has led to a lot of hormone infertility issues. Michelle: No doubt. I see that with intermittent fasting, too, because it was mostly tested on men. And nobody really checked on women and what I've heard is that if you were to do that, because there are some benefits of fasting to not do it all the time, maybe to do a periodically to kind of like reset the system. Michelle: But another thing too, is that I[00:21:00]see, you know, besides sometimes people being really underweight and not having the energy stores, but. Sometimes people have the energy stores, they become overweight, but they're not, it's not because they're eating a lot. It's just their body's not able to process that energy. Michelle: And perhaps they're not getting the nutrients they need to get the energy to break down the energy, if that makes sense. Kaely: Right. Absolutely. Yep. Yeah. That's that whole, you know, predicament of the modern human eating more food than ever, but being nutrient starved. You know, we're, we have access 24 seven access for the most part to really calorie dense foods, but they're not nutrient dense and we need both in order for that system to work well. Michelle: Yeah. Because if you don't have both, then you're not able to even use the energy that you do have. It just doesn't, it doesn't process. It doesn't translate. Kaely: Yep. And something that you mentioned with the intermittent fasting and just, you know, if we want to leverage the[00:22:00]benefits of fasting in women, you know, we do it in a, in a different way than we would with men. We would do things, you know, for shorter duration or for specific seasons. And I think that hits on a really big point for nutrition for women's health. Kaely: And that's having to acknowledge that we're cyclical beings. And that it's okay that we need to change our approach to food, to exercise, to the way we're living our lives based on what's going on in our cycle. And I know this is something that you speak on often. It's one of my favorite things as well. Kaely: You know, our culture thinks that we should feel the exact same way andshow up the exact same way every single day. But if you're a cycling female, I mean, you're going through four different seasons every single month and those have different demands. Michelle: Absolutely. And so what have you seen? I know how I see it from kind of a little bit more of a Chinese medicine perspective, but I'd love to hear your takeon like the different seasons and because I just love this topic. It's so much fun. Kaely: I love it too. And I think it's so liberating.[00:23:00]Yeah, it is. I remember feeling like so much relief when I realized that it's actually really normal that my motivation is not the same every single day. I remember feeling like I should show up as the same version of me all the time as a, as a business owner. Kaely: And even in, you know, my relationships and that's not the case. So what we see in our clients or just a general overview of this, you know, the, the menstruation or period phase being winter leading into spring, which is the follicular phase and the building up of estrogen and then ovulation being summer,kind of like peak. Kaely: And then coming into fall in the luteal phase and then back into winter and the hormone environment of each of those seasons influences the way that we metabolize our food and even the way that we keep blood sugar stable. So what we find to be most supportive from like a purely nutritional standpoint. Kaely: Is that we actually do better with a little bit more carbohydrate in that follicular phase. So kind of[00:24:00]spring season leading into summer because estrogen keeps us insulin sensitive so we can handle more carbohydrates more efficiently. And that can support that increased like external energy output that comes with the spring and summer seasons or follicular inovulation. Kaely: And then once we move into the fall season, so we start to have progesterone produced after ovulation, and progesterone actually helps us metabolize fats a little bit better, and then it stimulates our thyroid. So our metabolic rate and actually internal heat is highest in that second half of the cycle, but we're not quite as sensitive to insulin anymore. Kaely: So we finda little bit less carbohydrate in that season, a little bit more fats for the satiety. And then we even find reducing the intensity and even volume of exercise in that second half being really important too, because our external energy output tends to be lower in the fall and coming into winter. Kaely: And[00:25:00]then during the actual period, we see this so often in our clients, and I definitely live this personally, if we don't allow for a true winter. Like a true couple days of actually just resting and not putting our foot on the gas pedal and not forcing workouts, even if we don't feel well. If we skip that wintering, we see that impact the energy and output of the next cycle. Kaely: So if we can really honor the winter, slow down, take care of ourselves,listen to ourselves, we feel so much better throughout the subsequent cycle. Michelle: I just love that you just said that. It's so true and I, when I finally got to the point in my life where I honored it. For myself because I was I would work out throughout my period and and now I get to this place where I actually honor it and I don't and I give myself a couple of days where I'm just like allowing myself to rest and once you accept it because it's always habit. Michelle: You know, you get[00:26:00]into habits and you almost have to change your your definition of what things are, because in your mind, it's like, I have to do things in order to be productive and that's my reality. And then when you start to realize, I can also listen to what that reality could be and listen to my body and what my body's telling me. Michelle: And when you start to really honor that, it's a game changer. I mean, I'll say that it's a game changer. Kaely: Yeah. Oh yeah, I totally agree, and when I finally started to honor thatmyself, it was like a huge lightbulb moment, and it just changed things for me, you know, personally and professionally, if I could actually fill my cup during thatwinter, things just played out so much better. Michelle: Yeah. And I see it also just with how we eat, you know, and just like eating past our feeling full or not eating enough and just kind of holding out because we want to be thin and, you know, we, you discussed that before, but[00:27:00]it's just not listening to our body. Our body is so intelligent. Also, the mindfulness of eating is a big one.  Michelle: It's just, if you chew your food more, just that alone can make such a difference on how you're able to process it and getting all those enzymes from your saliva. It's like the simple things. We have teeth. For a reason, Kaely: Hmm. Yeah. And like eating away from some kind of other distraction, like the TV screen or your computer for work or scrolling emails or social media on your phone, it is, it's always the simple stuff. And I think at the end of the day, if we really want to feel amazing as women and support fertility, it's just getting back in touch with the amazing innate wisdom that the body has. Kaely: And knowing that the entire, like, diet and like, body image culture isdesigned on you being disconnected from that. So, it's literally an act of rebellionto do it differently, and it's it's really how things will change[00:28:00]in the women's health space. Michelle: It's the best kind of rebellion you can get into. And Kaely: Yes. Michelle: I'll tell you this, like another thing that is that the spleen and stomachthey, they have a very important role. I mean, they, they are the role for our digestive system in our body from a TCM traditional Chinese medicine perspective. Michelle: And the spleen, one of the functions of it, or it's connected to a lot ofthinking. So when we think too much, and it's funny, cause when I was. studying this, the guy, our first teacher when we first started said, your spleen is going to get crazy, you know, and your digestive system is going to get impacted by all the memory and all of the studying that you have to do in this course. Michelle: So just keep that in mind. You might need to start like working on it,taking extra herbs tosupport that. And. What you said was so important because when you're eating and you're watching TV or your mind's going somewhere else, then you're taking that energy, that mental energy[00:29:00]that could go towards your digestion somewhere else. Michelle: So it's interesting that we say that, but it's even separate from traditional Chinese medicine. People say that or realize that, but this is a thing in Chinesemedicine. It really is like your mental energy gets taken away from your digestive system. And if your digestive systems off, it will impact your, your gut microbiome impacts. Michelle: We know this through science, your brain activity and how you canthink and function. So I find it fascinating when. Modern daytimes, like the thingsthat we discover really do correlate and have a connection with what traditional Chinese medicine has been talking about for so many years. And Ayurvedic medicine as well. Michelle: Pretty cool.Kaely:Yeah, that's really cool. Thank you for sharing that. I also, I'm just fascinated when you see the same themes in really different schools of thought. So that's really cool. Michelle: Yeah. But it comes down to really listening to our[00:30:00]body because our bodies are so intelligent. I mean, it's before we were able to rely on any other person to tell us. You know, animals don't have that. They don't go to doctors if they're out in the wild, you know, they have, they have their instinct because their bodies have to tell you, like, it's a survival thing. Michelle: Your body has to tell you, you have to have that communication. However, our minds can overpower a lot, like our thinking brain can overpower alot of that. So coming back to yourself and your senses and your connection with your intuition. And your own body awareness to let you know, I think even if you have that down, you can even figure out what you're sensitive to, like what kind of foods agree with you, don't and most people do, they don't just don't realize it or they don't listen. Kaely: Yeah, completely agree with that. And it's something that we often work on kind of right in the beginning of serving a client is trying to get more in touch withthat[00:31:00]intuition and build that autonomy muscle, because it really does take some practice and agood Question that we like to ask, and if you're listening and curious where you fall on this, it's taking inventory of the, like, health decisions you make, and asking yourself how many of those decisions are coming from someone else's recommendation, or a list, or an idea of what you should do. Kaely: And I know when I was kind of early on in my hormone health journey myself, I was thinking like, wow, I'm eating these foods that I actually don't feel great when I eat, but I'm eating them because someone else decided that they were healthy. Or I'm limiting my intake to X. Michelle:my God. Yes. Kaely: Yeah, you know, we're doing, we're outsourcing all of those decisions andignoring the fact that we actually don't feel well, or we actually aren't seeing theoutcomes that we want to see, but we're like, somebody else said this was healthyand what I should do, so I'm gonna do it. Kaely: So I would just spend some time evaluating that. How many of thosedecisions come from someone outside of you, and are they in complete opposition with[00:32:00]how you're feeling, and where can we start to honor that? Because Like you said, you know, your body knows. It's so smart. It's so wise. And it has really great ways of communicating its needs. Kaely: We've just got to get back into the practice of listening to that.Michelle:Yeah. No doubt. I mean, even spinach. I mean, there's certain things thatare great for some people, but for other people, they just don't do well with it. And they can, you know, totally ignore that cause they're like, no, but that's supposed to be really good for you. It's your vegetables. It really, it could be the best thing ever for person A and for person B it's like the worst thing ever. Michelle: So it really depends on your, how your body's responsive to that specific food. Even bone broth, which I love, there are certain people that tend to have higher histamines when they take it. So it impacts them in a really adverse way. So it, it truly, truly depends because for some people, for many people, it's like liquidgold. Michelle: I call it, it's really great for the[00:33:00]body. It has amino acids. It's really building and has good fats, healthy fats and great for your with collagen for your gut. But for some people, they just don't dowell with it. Kaely: Yeah, we are all very unique in that sense and that's where kind of blanketed one size fits all nutrition gets us in a bad way because it plays out so different from person to person. Michelle: Yeah, for sure. So well, this is great information. I really enjoy talking to you. I think nutrition is so key. It's really, really important for anybody who's trying to conceive. And for people who want to find you or would like to work with you, how can people find you? Kaely: Yeah, so you can find me. I mostly on Instagram. So my handle is Kaley RD, so K-A-E-L-Y-R-D, and my website is the same. So you'll find information on our general philosophy and ways to work with us there. And then I believe I sent you[00:34:00]guys a link if I didn't already I will right after this call Michelle, but We've got a free six part email series on Pregnancy prep process and it outlines kind of key nutrients to be thinking about in that season some good books the typeof testing that would be helpful to do in the 6 to 12 months before conception time frame and They're just things that we've gathered over the years that can really helpPrepare someone mind body spirit for the conception journey and just a real proactive approach to that. Kaely: That's totally free Michelle: Awesome. Well, I appreciate that. Thank you so much for bringing thatto our audience. And I loved having this conversation, Kaylee. It's definitely a passion of mine and really is just so important. So thank you so much for coming on today. Kaely: Thank you so much for having me. This was a blast.

Welcome to DAY 4 of the Healthy Movement Challenge!  ***IF you are listening beyond real time you can STILL SIGN UP!*** Sign up now for the FREE Healthy Movement Challenge! In this challenge we are addressing the idea of fun, healthy movement to help you with mindset around exercise and boosting your emotional/mental/physical health. This is a fun challenge and it will hopefully challenge you to see exercise differently. Make sure you have your workbook and let's get started on DAY 4 of our Healthy Movement Challenge! Today we are talking about: can a fitness app really help keep you motivated? What about various chores around the house? Any tool we use will help with our motivation...IF we utilize it! One of the intentions of this challenge is to help you recognize the importance of moving your body daily. If you are not in the habit of regular exercise than it's time to take a good hard look at WHY?  We are looking at some different ways you can incorporate fun, healthy movement into your lifestyle without even leaving your home.  Tune in and find out how fitness apps and your home can help keep you motivated for fun, healthy movement daily!! I pray this encourages you and blesses you in some way today! XO, Michelle   **It's Day 4 of our exciting and free challenge! Listen in and join our Treasured Wellness community to be a part of it!** ***IF you are listening beyond real time you can STILL SIGN UP!*** Sign up now for the FREE Healthy Movement Challenge! Let's DO IT!! Know that you want to be ALL IN for 4 months of intentional lifestyle change and rid your body of toxic inflammation? Want to also improve your immune system as you begin to implement fresh, consistent changes? I have your back! Make the changes you need to move the needle forward in your health in a way that is doable. The SHAPE ReClaimed Anti-inflammatory Lifestyle Modification Program is for you!   Do you want a functional eye on your labs? In one 60 minute session I can help you to understand your lab results using a functional health approach. We will discuss lifestyle tweaks you can make to improve your health so you can be proactive in caring for yourself well.  Schedule your one time Lab Analysis Session Constantly tired and feeling stuck on how to increase your energy? Book your 1 hour FATIGUE FREEDOM COACHING SESSION for only $47! In just one hour you will get clarity on what your personal fatigue causes or triggers are so that you can be intentional in your day to banish them and have more natural energy. You will walk away with a simple customized holistic health plan to take the next steps to where you want to go in your health journey. Grab your session now!   Join me in my FB Group, Holistic Health for Christian Women over 40, to be supported, encouraged and educated in your health https://www.facebook.com/groups/933692933927629   Want more FREE tips on how to regain your energy in a natural way using clear daily action steps along with some delicious and supportive recipes? Grab my FREE Foggy and Fatigued Blueprint   **Catch the Treasured Wellness Podcast on https://christianmix106.com/   YouTube  AND https://actsmediagroup.net/radio-free-america-internet-radio/   Related Episodes: Ep. 121 Do you trust yourself for your own fitness goals? Ep. 118 Do you start a new diet or eating plan only to give it up? Ep. 129 Can self care reduce inflammation?

Michelle's first birth began with an induction via an artificial rupture of membranes at 42 weeks per the recommendation of her midwives. Looking back, Michelle realizes that many factors contributed to what may have been a preventable Cesarean. Right after the first trimester of her second pregnancy and at the height of COVID, Michelle's husband deployed. Knowing he wouldn't be home for her birth, Michelle did everything in her power to fight for the redemptive VBAC she deserved. We are in awe of Michelle's strength, resilience, and all of her impressive victories along the way!PLUS…as a certified professional midwife, educator, and a monitrice/labor/bereavement doula with a wealth of knowledge and experience, our guest cohost, Katrina, shares her top five tips on how to have your most empowering birth experience. Additional linksReal Food for Pregnancy by Lily NicholsKatrina's WebsiteKatrina's InstagramHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Welcome, everybody. You are listening to The VBAC Link Podcast. This is your host, Meagan and we have a cohost today. This actually is someone I know personally too. She is one of our VBAC doulas and she's even a midwife now. This is Katrina. Katrina: Hello. Meagan: Thank you so much for being with us today. Katrina: Thanks for having me. Meagan: It's so fun to have you. She used to live here in Utah and then she moved far away. Not really that far, but you feel so far now. Katrina: Yes, yes. I know, I miss everybody.Meagan: But you are doing amazing things where you are at. You are in California, right?Katrina: I am, yes, here on the central coast, so San Luis Obispo county. Meagan: Perfect. Do you want to tell everyone what you are up to these days? Katrina: Sure, yeah. A lot is going on for me. I am a licensed midwife– a certified professional midwife. I'm an educator. I do placenta encapsulation. I'm a labor and bereavement doula. I have a small and intimate practice here on the central coast in Templeton, California where I offer midwifery services, clinical sneak peek, gender draw, monitrice and doula services, encapsulation, and well-woman care. Meagan: Holy smokes. Katrina: A little bit of everything, but I love it all. Meagan: I don't know if you have enough fingers and toes for all of the things you are dipped into, but that is incredible. Holy cow. Katrina: Thank you. Meagan: We're going to make sure everybody if you're in her area, we're going to make sure to have all of her information so you can find her here in the show notes. So don't hesitate to check those out and go find her. She's incredible, you guys. Katrina: Thank you. Meagan: No, thank you. I'm going to turn the time over to you to read a review and then we are going to jump into the incredible story that we have today. Review of the WeekKatrina: Yes, so I have a review to read today that was sent in by Elizabeth Herrera. She says, “Wishing I had Apple Podcasts right now to leave a review. I hope this does the trick. Thank you so much for creating this whole community. After my emergency Cesarean in 2019, I looked up everything possible about being able to VBAC. This led me to your wonderful podcast and blog. I devoured everything. I owe much of my knowledge to you all and to my doula. I'm happy to say that I had my VBAC on March 31st and it was a magical experience. Thank you all so much for all of the materials you have provided which helped me succeed. I hope one day to share my story on your podcast. Many, many thanks.”Meagan: Oh, I love that. We want to keep reminding you guys, we are always taking submissions for podcast recording and I am going to be recording– we are kind of backed up, so if you want to share your story on the podcast or if you want to share your story on social media which we are also doing, please email us or go to our website, thevbaclink.com/share and you can submit your story. Because we don't have as many podcasts as we do posts on social media, feel free to post your information there and we are happy to post your story and share. Every single day, people are searching our Instagram looking for stories to read because they want to hear them. They want to read. They want all of them. I'm sure if you are preparing, you know what I'm talking about. You want it all. You want to digest it all. So if you want to read or share, head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. Michelle's Story Meagan: Okay. Michelle from Iowa. So excited for you to share your story. As I was reading through a little bit about your summary of everything, one of the things that stood out to me and connected was the feeling of not wanting to be recovering from a Cesarean with a second child, with a little one already around. Even though you have lots of support around, not wanting to have to recover and do that alone because your husband was deployed.My husband wasn't deployed, but he didn't have a lot of time off and had to go right back to work so I was like, “Oh my gosh. I don't if I'm going to recover.” I did have to recover with that because I did have a repeat Cesarean, but I was like, “Oh, I understand that want so badly to not have to have that second Cesarean to recover and raise two kiddos without that support, right?”Michelle: Yes, yes. Meagan: I connected with that so much. But okay. And I also connected with your baby turning breech a couple of times. That's so stressful. Michelle: Yes, I was so scared. Meagan: Oh my gosh. With my VBAC, my little guy kept flipping. I'm like, “No. I am not going to have a repeat Cesarean because this guy cannot keep his head down.” Okay. We would love to turn the time over to you and share your story. Michelle: Yes. Jumping in with my first pregnancy, I thought it was a pretty healthy pregnancy. It seemed pretty normal and everything. I didn't have any gestational diabetes. I did end up with quite a bit of fluid retention starting pretty early on, but my blood pressure is always really low, so my midwives weren't really worried about it at all. I had hospital-based midwives for that birth. Looking back, my diet was not good at all. I remember I would read about if you have a craving, just have a little bit of it even if it's something that's not super healthy. So I'd have a tiny little bowl of ice cream, then I'm like, “Well, that's not enough. I have to have a giant bowl of ice cream too.” Meagan: Uh-huh. That's the thing is that sometimes those little tastes can be eating the whole gallon of ice cream.Michelle: Yes, and then when I stopped working at 39 weeks, I didn't feel like cooking myself lunch, so I would just have a microwaved s'more for lunch. Just in general, I was not very good, but I thought I felt okay for being pregnant. Like I said, I didn't have any gestational diabetes, but I was measuring a little bit big around 33 weeks, so they ended up wanting to do a growth scan. That came back just fine. He was in the 50th percentile, around that area, except for his head. His head was in the 98th percentile. I do have big heads in my family, so I wasn't too worried about that. My midwives, most of them, weren't too worried about that, but there was one that kept bringing it up when I would see her. She'd be like, “Oh. Maybe he's having a hard time–” we didn't know it was a “he.” “Maybe the baby's having a hard time engaging because he has a big head, whereas some of the others were more encouraging. It was like, “Maybe he had a growth spurt in his head and the rest of his body will catch up later.” But this one midwife just kept mentioning that. That same midwife, I also noticed, where some of the others would spend several minutes feeling around my belly to make sure they knew what position he was in, I had one check where she felt for his head, “Oh, his head's down,” so she just listed him as OA and didn't check anything else. Yeah. I didn't think too much of it at the time. I got along with her personally and everything. We're going along and I'm trying to do everything naturally, so I just kept waiting to go into labor and it didn't happen. We get to 42 weeks and I'm not ready to wait anymore. I'm comfortable waiting anymore. My midwives are not comfortable waiting anymore, so I went in for an induction. Because I wanted to do everything naturally, what they suggested and what I agreed to was to have them break my water to have my body go into labor on its own. The midwife that was on that day was this midwife who kept doubting that I would be able to. She never said, “I don't think you'll be able to push out the baby with a big head,” but she kept mentioning his big head even when I went in for the induction. So I had them break my water. I think I was probably, I want to say 2-3 centimeters before they broke it and I think I must have been 4 centimeters because she must have stretched me to 4 centimeters because she said, “You're now in active labor,” which didn't make sense to me. Meagan: Yeah. Michelle: I was having some contractions that morning, but I didn't think that I was in active labor.Meagan: Nothing substantial to be in active labor. Michelle: Yeah. But yeah, she must have thought, “Oh. You're in 4 centimeters so you're in active labor.” Anyway, so I was walking the halls and I was in the tub. Things were going okay. I eventually ended up with the epidural and everything and Pitocin. I kept dilating. Everything was going fine. But 12 hours later– and I had multiple, multiple cervical checks. I get to about 12 hours later. I'm basically fully dilated. I'm 9.5 centimeters and I've got an interior lip. She keeps telling me, “He hasn't descended at all.” And then she did say, “He descended a little bit, but it's just the molding of the head. He's not actually descending.” His heart started getting a little bit elevated, so they started worrying about an infection. I was a little bit confused about it at the time, but I wasn't able to think too much of it because my epidural had fallen out. So I'd had all of this build up into transition and everything plus Pitocin without being able to feel it, and now I'm feeling everything. So I wasn't able to think too much of it, but they just took me back for a C-section. We agreed to it, but we didn't ask any questions. My question that to this day I have not had answered is, “Why didn't they have me at least try to push? I was basically dilated.” But in my head at the time, I was just like, “Well, she must just know that he is stuck, so he needs to come out.” Like I said, she didn't really believe in me. I guess she just didn't think he was going to come out. Plus, it was probably 10:30 at that point, so I don't know what time shift ends, but I just felt like she didn't really try. She wasn't in the room that much. She didn't really give me that many suggestions, just was there and gone. Meagan: Kind of left you feeling hanging. Michelle: Mhmm, and unsupported. Yes, yes. So they took me back for the C-section and everything went pretty well. I had a pretty good recovery, but even from the day after my C-section, I was planning for a VBAC.So at my 6-week follow-up appointment, a different midwife from the same practice looked at my chart and she was like, “Yeah you can probably have a VBAC no problem with a smaller baby, just 7-8 pounds.” she looked at my chart and say I gained 55 pounds with my pregnancy and she was like, “Next pregnancy, just eat popcorn and salad and you'll grow a smaller baby and be just fine.” Meagan: Oh! Oh. Well…Michelle: Yeah. So I started looking around after that trying to find out what my other options were for the next baby. At about 7 months postpartum, I was able to find a home birth midwife who said she would be able to see me for a VBAC. She would do nutritional counseling because she was like, “Yeah, that swelling was probably because you didn't have enough protein in your diet.” I'm like, “Yeah, that probably makes sense.” So she said that she would see me for a VBAC whenever that would happen. She would do nutritional counseling and be able to do a home birth at least out of the hospital because I did live kind of far away from a hospital. I wasn't necessarily comfortable doing an actual home birth.Also, about 1-2 months, somewhere in there, after our son was born, we did find out that my husband was going to be deployed. He's with the National Guard, so we didn't know when it was going to happen. We knew it was going to happen, but thankfully, we had quite a bit of warning. I know some people in the regular Army are living far away from family and deployments can happen at a moment's notice. Thankfully, that was not the case for us. Since he's National Guard, we were able to live where we live. We were able to live close to family. Meagan: Yeah. Michelle: So I'm very thankful for that. And again, we knew that the deployment was going to be coming. We had lots of notice instead of not very much notice. But that did make it very difficult because we didn't know exactly when it was going to be. We wanted to try to plan for another baby and that made it difficult to do because we didn't know how to time it. Obviously, things don't always work according to plan anyway. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Michelle: But we ended up getting pregnant when my son was 19 months old. Basically how it ended up working out was I was right at the end of my first trimester when my husband left. I was thankful he was there for at least the first trimester. That helped so much. Meagan: Absolutely. Michelle: And that was the beginning of COVID, so he was actually home quite a bit. He took a few extra weeks off of his job to quarantine and stuff, but also just to be home which was so nice. But when I got pregnant, I started looking around for out-of-hospital options because that's what I really wanted this whole time. No one in my area wanted to see me for a VBAC because I hadn't had any vaginal births before. I didn't have a proven pelvis. Even the home birth midwife who had said she would see me for a VBAC wanted me to have a vaginal birth in the hospital before seeing me for a VBAC later. But she did agree to see me for nutritional counseling and to be my doula in the hospital with this particular midwife practice. Meagan: Great. Michelle: Yeah, that seemed agreeable to me. I had come to the point where I believed in my body's ability to birth a big baby, but at the same time, I was ready to commit to a much healthier diet in order to be able to hopefully grow a smaller baby so that I wouldn't have to fight with any providers about it to have them not try to use scare tactics or anything. I read the book Real Food for Pregnancy by Lily Nichols. Such a good book. Meagan: I love that book, yes. Michelle: I felt so much better through my whole pregnancy even in the first trimester just focusing on eating protein with every snack, trying to go for more complex carbs, keep my blood sugar helped so much with morning sickness and I just felt so much better. Meagan: Good, that's awesome. Katrina: No, I was just going to say that nutrition– we don't really often put too much time or thought into it but it can make such a difference in terms of how we feel, how we carry our babies, and even just our mental capacity and caseload when we're well-nourished. Meagan: Mhmm. Michelle: Yes. Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say that it's crazy how just switching it up ever so slightly can truly impact, like you said, the way you felt and then even outcomes as well. And recovery. Katrina: Absolutely and kudos to that midwife who stepped up and helped you with that nutritional component because I do feel like oftentimes, that's one of the pieces and elements that is left out of prenatal care.  Michelle: Yes. Katrina: We talk about, “Are you exercising?” We weigh you. We say, “Oh, you're gaining too much or not enough,” but that piece of, “Okay, well what are you eating? What are you taking in? Is it processed foods? What are you eating?” I think sometimes, is just really overlooked even though it can have such a monumental impact on you, your body, and your baby. Michelle: Yes. And like I said, after my first, they would be like– the only nutritional guidance I got was, “Oh, you can eat popcorn and salad.” That's just not really helpful. Meagan: No. Katrina: No, it's not. Meagan: Not necessarily the tips that you had been wanting with you. Michelle: Yeah, so then the midwife practice that I was seeing close to where I lived– like I said, another hospital-based midwife practice. Again, I felt like I could get along with the midwives personally, but just every now and again, some less-helpful pieces were sprinkled in. For instance, I mentioned that one of the reasons I really wanted a VBAC was because we wanted to have a big family and I didn't want the size of my family determined by the way I give birth. So she was just like, “Yeah, I understand that, but you know, you might get to four kids and not really want anymore anyway.” I'm like, “Okay, but that's still not how I want my family size to be determined.”Katrina: Right. Michelle: I just felt like there was a lack of trust from the beginning. I just felt like I wasn't able to make my own choices. They used a VBAC calculator to determine whether I was even eligible to be in their practice. They had a 41-week deadline where I had to have the baby or be induced. I was like, “I went to 42 weeks last time and I'm okay with doing that again. I'm all set to do that again.” But if I didn't agree to be induced by 41 weeks, I would risk out of their care and I'd have to be seen by the OBs who are not as VBAC friendly. I also felt like I didn't have any choices with the glucose test. I asked about alternatives and they didn't allow any of that. I asked about if I was to agree to be induced, how would I be induced? Their preferred method of induction was the artificial rupture of membranes which I was absolutely deadset against. I feel like that's the number one reason I ended up with a C-section with my son because I felt like–Meagan: Mmm, too early? Because then with the decels and all of that? Michelle: Yeah, the infection risk as well as my feeling that since it was so early and he was kind of high beforehand, I just felt like it had him settle in a bad position and he couldn't get out of it. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Totally. Michelle: So I was deadset against artificial rupture of membranes, especially artificial rupture of membranes as the induction method. And then they would do Pitocin after that. But they wouldn't do a Foley bulb or anything because apparently somehow, they said that it increases rupture risk. I was like, “That doesn't sound right to me.” Even when I went in for my anatomy scan, because it was COVID like I said, and I had heard so many other people be like, “Yeah, I was able to do a video call with my husband because he wasn't able to be in the room for the anatomy scan.” I thought I would be able to do the same. They were absolutely like, “No way. You can't have any sort of video recording device.”I had a total breakdown at that point. I was like, “This is one of the very, very few parts of my pregnancy that my husband can be a part of because he's gone. He's never going to be able to feel her kick because she was too small before he left and she is going to be born by the time he gets back. He can't feel her kick inside me. There's no other part that he can be a part of.” Finally, they at least let me have him on an audio call. Meagan: Oh my gosh. I'm just over here shaking my head. Katrina: I know. Well, and how disempowering for them to pull everything away from you like that. Especially during COVID. Michelle: Yes. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. And unfortunately, we know you're not the only one that had similar situations like this. I was so frustrated and I'm still frustrated just listening to you. Oh, I'm sorry. Michelle: So yeah. Again, just a lot of things where I just felt like I didn't have choices and didn't have a lot of trust. Finally, my breaking point was when I got to my glucose test. I felt great afterward. I was just like, “I'm so excited to get my results. I feel good that I passed. I want to get my results and get on with my life and not worry about it anymore.” I waited for the call with my results and I didn't get one. It just kept not coming and finally, I don't remember if it was a day later. It was far after I was supposed to get my results. I finally got a call and they were like, “Our lab lost your sample. We weren't able to test it.” Katrina: Oh no. Michelle: I had to go back in and do a second one-hour glucose test and I felt horrible afterward. I had such a bad headache, heartburn, and stomachache. You name it. I got my results back and it was pretty high. I was like, “I don't even trust that this is actually my result because they lost my sample last time.” That's when I realized that I just didn't trust this practice. I know it's a good practice. I even heard a story on this podcast from someone who went to the same practice and had a great experience. It's a good practice. It just, in my situation, I didn't feel like I had the choices that I wanted. Meagan: Yeah. Well, just when you hear, “Oh, this VBAC-supportive provider was super amazing,” that's great for them, but it may not be the right supportive provider for you. Katrina: Right. Meagan: It's the same thing with location and everything like that. Even though there are some people who have had amazing experiences, that doesn't mean that it's the right place or you are feeling the support that someone else may have felt. Michelle: Yeah. So at that point when I finally realized that I don't trust this practice, I called the midwife who was going to be my doula and she was like, “Yeah, I've been kind of holding onto this, but if you feel like you don't trust them, maybe you should just go to Iowa City.” I had been thinking that too, so I was like, “Yeah. I think it's time.” So I switched to Iowa City, but because she is a home birth midwife as well, she wasn't able to make the trip with me because she had her own clients for home birth. So I had to find a new doula. I switched practices around 29 weeks, so then I was 31, 32, 33 weeks looking for a doula and all of the doulas in my area were booked. I finally found one and even though I was traveling to Iowa City which is about a 2-hour drive for me, I wanted to choose one from my own area just in case something happened. I was due in December so if there was a snowstorm or if I was having a really fast labor and I couldn't make it all the way, I still wanted to have my doula with me. I chose one from my own area. I was finally able to find one, and then now that I was traveling for two hours, I'm like, “There's no way that I'm going to take a 3-hour glucose test because that's now a 7-hour ordeal trying to drive two hours while starving and then three hours there, then two hours back while having a glucose hangover.” I just decided that I was going to test my glucose every day. I thought at first that they were going to let me do it just for a week, but then they said that since my one-hour test was already elevated, they wanted me to do it for the rest of my pregnancy. I'm like, “You know what? That is still worth it.” I started doing the 4-hour round trip every two weeks and then every week. It was a lot, but it was totally worth the peace of mind just knowing that if for whatever reason I do end up with a C-section, it's going to be because I actually needed it and not because I was scared into it, because they didn't have enough patience or anything like that. And plus, I was able to listen to The VBAC Link podcast on the way. That was my companion for the drive there. I started doing all of the things for prep– eating the dates, drinking the tea, doing the walks, and going to the chiropractor. Apparently, I created too much space for my baby because then at 37 weeks, I found out that my baby was breech.  That particular day, my midwife made it a little bit scarier like, “Oh, you can try the ECV. These are the things that you can do, but if your baby's breech, then you're going to have to have a C-section.” That was a stressful day and a long drive home. That same day, I found out that I had been exposed to COVID. I ended up testing positive for that. I didn't end up having any symptoms beyond regular pregnancy symptoms. My nose was already stuffy every day. I was tired because I was 37-38 weeks pregnant trying to chase around a 2-year-old by myself, but everyone thought I was going to die. It was just like, “I'm fine. Just leave me alone.” But within the next couple of days, I was doing the Miles Circuit every night. One night I fell asleep doing it and when I woke up, everything was different. All of her movements were different. I was like, “All right. She's head down again. We can keep going along.”We were able to confirm at my next appointment that she was, in fact, head down. I finished my quarantine. I was able to start going back to the chiropractor. I got to 40 weeks and my little gymnast keeps doing flips and she was breech again. Meagan: Oh, so stressful. Katrina: Yes. Michelle: Yes, but a little bit less stressful this time just because my midwife was so much calmer about it. She was like, “If baby is still flipping around at this point, she can do it again.” That helped so much just having her calm presence with the whole thing. We went ahead and scheduled the ECV just in case. She was like, “Well, if we have the ECV and it's successful, we will just go ahead and induce you because you are already 40 weeks, and that way she doesn't have a chance to come out of your pelvis and flip again.”I was able to flip her again with the Miles Circuit. At that point, I started belly binding because I think I had a pendulous belly probably, looking back. I just think that my uterus was a little tipped forward so she couldn't settle in my pelvis and had all of that room to be free-floating and flipping around. So then we get to 40 weeks and 6 days. I started feeling some contractions. It was 12:30 in the afternoon. I was like, “This feels a little bit different.” I hadn't had any Braxton Hicks contractions that would be a little bit uncomfortable. Mostly, it was just tightening like, “Hmm. This one actually is a little bit uncomfortable.” But it didn't really feel like too much yet so I just went about my day. I was scared to lie down because I didn't want it to stop. I didn't want to rest. My mom came in that evening because I was supposed to have an appointment the next morning, but the contractions kept going. Toward the evening, I finally started contacting my doula, the hospital, and then my sister-in-law who was going to drive me to the hospital. I tried doing some resting. I took a bath and then I was able to put my son to bed as an only child for the last time. I was glad that I was able to do that. Just one last moment of normalcy. Yeah, so we made the 2-hour drive. We made it to the hospital at about midnight. I was about 4 centimeters. They were able to confirm on the ultrasound that she was head down still. I did make a point to wear my own gown for laboring because I didn't want to get into that patient mentality. One thing I did not do that I wish I would have is I did not wear my belly binder, so I think she was still kind of floating around a little bit. I got to my room. They were able to have me on the wireless monitor so I could keep moving around. My belly was so round that they had a hard time keeping it on her. This whole time, I still didn't really even feel like I was fully in labor. I was able to have a conversation and I definitely wouldn't have gone yet if I didn't have a 2-hour drive. My doula kept encouraging me to rest which I did not want to do. I wanted to be up and moving during the contractions. I felt like if I was on the bed and a contraction hit, then I couldn't get up to move and it just made it so much worse. Probably at 5:30-6:00 in the morning, she fell off the monitor which I didn't think too much of. The nurse came in to adjust it. She's moving it all around and she finally finds the heartbeat way up high on my abdomen which is where they had always found her heartbeat when she was breech. Meagan: I was going to say, I bet your heart was thinking, “Breech!”Michelle: Yeah, I was in total panic. I was like, yeah. I was panicking. I couldn't stay calm during contractions. I couldn't relax during contractions anymore. I was just in total panic. My doula and my nurse and everything kept trying to keep me calm. I was just like, “Just let me panic for a minute. This is scary. I don't want to be calm right now.” Meagan: Yeah. That's a valid feeling. It's okay to get it out and process it versus having to hold it in and deal with it until later. Just let it be for a second. Michelle: Yeah. It was around 7:00 a.m. when they made it in. The ultrasound confirmed that she was still head down. My thought now was probably that she was descending into my pelvis and where they were able to find it changed. She was still head down, so we were good to go. At that point, I still couldn't calm down. I was still in that panic mode. I wasn't able to cope anymore. So I was like, “As long as she comes out vaginally, I don't care. I wanted to go all-natural, but now I don't care. Just give me the epidural. Get her out.” My doula was like, “Yeah, you can have the epidural if you want, but let's try the shower first.” The shower was awesome. Instant relief. Immediately, I was like, “I can think clearly again. I can relax during contractions.” But then almost immediately after that, I started wanting to push. I told my doula, I was like, “I feel like I'm going to push her out really fast.” My doula was like, “Well, you still will need to probably pace yourself. The first time pushing, it's probably going to be a while.”I got out of the shower. She encouraged me to labor down on the toilet. That's when I started actively, involuntarily pushing. My water broke almost right away and it was kind of funny because I immediately hopped off of the toilet. I thought I had accidentally pushed out my baby in the toilet, but it was just my water breaking.” Meagan: It's crazy how sometimes, that water right? Michelle: Yeah. Meagan: We never know how it's going to happen or what it's going to feel like, Michelle: Yeah, and again, it hadn't happened naturally for my first either. I wasn't ready for it even though I had been in labor for 19 hours. I just wasn't ready for it. But yeah. They got me off the toilet. They could see, obviously, that I was pushing so they were like, “We'd better go check and see if you're complete.” They tried to get me back to the bed and someone told me that they wanted me on my back for a cervical check. I wanted to go on the bed and go on my hands and knees, but I was told that I had to get on my back. I made it on the bed. I made it on my side and I was like, “I'm not moving anymore. I'm done. I'm not moving anywhere.” So then I was complete. They were letting me push. I was like, “Well, that's good because there is no way I'm going to be able to stop even if you tell me that I can't.”Katrina: Yeah, once your body takes over control, that's it. Michelle: Yeah. I felt really good having my legs closed trying to push, but they had me keep opening my legs. In retrospect, I can't help but wonder if they would have let me have my knees together and my feel apart if that would have felt better for me, but that's not what happened. The funny thing is what I remember most is what I could hear throughout this whole thing. When they were trying to open my legs for me or getting things ready and I didn't like it, I just remember saying, “No, no, no.” I just remember thinking even at that moment, I just feel like I sounded like my son. I feel like I sounded like my two-year-old, but that was all I could say at the time. And then I just remember the sound of myself grunting while I was pushing. I remember the sound of everyone in the room really loudly saying, “Yes, yes, yes! Push!” They weren't coaching, but really loudly encouraging. Behind all of that, what I really remember and what really stands out to me is that I was able to have my husband on FaceTime and his voice being the calm voice, just the calm, steady encouragement. That was so helpful. Yeah, that's what I remember most, and being on my side. What I did really like about it was being able to completely and totally relax my whole body in between contractions. If I had been on my hands and knees, I would still have to hold myself up. But being on my side was total rest during contractions which was really nice. Meagan: Really lovely, I'm sure. Michelle: Yeah. So then she was born at 8:14 a.m., so I had been in the hospital for 8 hours. She was born OP. I only pushed for 11 minutes. Meagan: Whew!Katrina: Wow, that's amazing. Michelle: Yeah. My first thought is, “Yeah, I probably could have–” She was a lot smaller than my son, but if he was in a good position and she was OP. If I could push her out in 11 minutes, I probably could have pushed him out if he had been in a good position. To everyone who doubted me, I'm pretty sure I could have done that. But I was able to announce the gender because we didn't know beforehand, so I got to do that. I got to cut the cord which was great and very special. I did end up having a third degree tear and definitely some sacral bruising which makes sense because she came out really fast and she was OP. She was just over 2.5 pounds smaller than her brother. It kind of makes sense where she got all of that extra room to be flipping around. But even with some of the bigger injuries of the third-degree tear, I still felt like what most people describe as a second-degree tear, so I had a pretty easy recovery. It was still easier than a C-section even though I had an easy recovery from my C-section. I will say that I did also have a little bit of a lack of immediate connection just being completely unmedicated and not quite expecting her to come that fast. My first thought when they pulled her out and put her on me was, “Where did this baby come from? This is not my baby.” But of course, it was because no one else brought a baby in from another room. This is my baby that I just pushed out. Meagan: Just magically appeared right here. “I did do something before this.” That's so cute. Michelle: But yeah, she was the first vaginal birth out of all the grandkids on both sides of the family. They've all been born by C-sections for various reasons. Meagan: Oh, really? Michelle: Yeah.Meagan: Interesting. Michelle: My parents have six kids. The first two were born vaginally, but then they had some pretty adverse birth injuries, so they had her have C-sections for the last four of us, so on my side of the family, she is the first baby born vaginally in 40 years. Katrina: Whoa. Michelle: So that was pretty cool being able to break the traditions and set my own standards and goalposts. Meagan: Yeah. Katrina: Yeah. Meagan: That's fun, so what did everybody think when you were like, “Hey, I want to go for this VBAC” in your family?Michelle: Well, my mom definitely understood but didn't understand. I mean, for the most part, my family was pretty supportive. My husband was very supportive. His mom has eight kids. They were all natural. The last one was a home birth, so they are all on board with all-natural. So yeah. They were supportive for the most part. Like I said, my mom understood but didn't understand. She didn't understand not wanting to be induced.Meagan: Didn't fully understand. Michelle: Yeah, she didn't understand me wanting to make my own decisions rather than just following whatever the provider says. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense. Well, congratulations. Michelle: Thank you. Katrina: Yeah. Michelle: It's been a little while now. She'll be two in December and it's great too because I never was able to decide where to start on writing down a birth story or anything, so it's nice being able to fully get it out all in order and everything. Meagan: Mhmm, I love it. Awesome. Well, Ms. Katrina has a little bit of our end-of-topic. You know how at the end of episodes, we like to share an extra topic? I'm so excited to hear what she is going to bring to you. Katrina's 5 TipsKatrina: Yes, yeah. I have a few tips that I'd like to share and then I have a little bit of a piece of home birth after Cesarean that I wanted to share that I attended. The beliefs that you hold in the abilities of your mind and your body are hugely influential in preparing for your birth. The following are some tips that I've put together to support an empowering birth experience. The first is to cultivate your physical, mental, and spiritual strength, stamina, and endurance. The second is to love yourself. Be mindful of your nutrition and your hydration. Manage your stress. Make yourself a priority when it comes to self-care in both emotional and physical elements and prioritize your rest and sleep. Number three: build the best birth team you can and one that will support you in all components of your pregnancy, labor, birth, and postpartum periods including emotional, mental, and physical support. Don't forget that this birth team works for you and you can replace team members at any point if they no longer align with your values and your goals. Number four: arm your toolbelt with knowledge. Practice physical positioning and utilization of your comfort tools. And lastly, number five: move, move, move. Your mind, body, and baby need movement and motion throughout your pregnancy, labor, birth, and beyond. In closing, I just wanted to share that I trust birth fully. I believe in personal autonomy, informed decision-making and consent, and birth options for all birthing people. I wanted to share– like I said earlier, I had the honor and privilege of attending a beautiful home birth after a Cesarean just over a year ago. This family was amazingly strong and determined. They birthed their baby in the comfort of their home at 42 weeks on the dot and had a beautiful baby boy who was 11 pounds and 15 ounces. Meagan: Whew! I love it. That just gave me chills because it's like, yes. This is possible. This is possible. Katrina: It is. It's possible. Women and birthing people are amazing and incredible. I truly believe following your intuition and seeking the support that you feel that you need and desire is just monumental in terms of the entire birth experience. Meagan: It goes back to even proven pelvis and all of that, right? Why, why, why do we have to prove ourselves? Why do we have to do that? Because I feel like, when someone says, “I can't do this because you have to prove to me,” and then if we don't “prove” in the way that they see it, then we feel like we failed. This failure word, this word fail comes up way too often and I don't like it. I don't like it. Katrina: Right, and ultimately, everyone should have the opportunity to have a trial of labor. There's no reason to not let people do that. Meagan: Absolutely. I agree. Absolutely. I love it. Thank you both for being with me today. So happy that you were both with me. Katrina: Thank you and congratulations, Michelle. I love your story. Michelle: Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me on. It's an honor to be able to finally share my story. It's great to be on after listening throughout my pregnancy and everything. Meagan: Yes, yes. I love it. Well, thank you both for your time, and again, congratulations, Michelle. Katrina, I'm blown away by all of the amazing things that you are doing. You always have been amazing, but it's like you just keep adding to this amazing resume. I'm so happy for you. Katrina: Thank you. Thank you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

For more information, visit the show notes at https://plutusfoundation.org/2022/rahkim-sabree-hubris   Welcome to Series 6 of the Plutus Awards Podcast hosted by Michelle Jackson. Our community is filled with hundreds of stories from creators and entrepreneurs just like you. And through this show we share these stories of challenges and successes from bloggers to podcasters, from writers, speakers, and more. In this season we talk about a somewhat taboo topic — the deadly sins that personal finance (and other content creators) can make. We share lessons learned, how to avoid these mistakes, and the fact that we're all human, putting our creative work out there into the world. This season's conversation is about the inherent risks we're taking in developing online brands, our own hubris, and the impact that how other people perceive us can make us or break our online brand. Today's guest is Rahkim Sabree and in this episode we talk about hubris. Just because we built something doesn't mean that our audience wants it. Learn the lessons learned from the mistake of building out a product without talking to your audience. We've all done it before and how Rahkim is avoiding making that mistake in the future. Rahkim Sabree – The Sin of Hubris: How to Use Insight From Your Audience Notes and summary from this episode Rahkim-I'm Rahkim Sabree, I'm an author, columnist, speaker and financial coach. Got into financial education about 10 years ago. I talk about financial empowerment, financial trauma and financial mindset. Michelle-How would you describe what your business is to other online entrepreneurs? Rahkim-It evolves part of me feels like I act like a consultant and stepping into an influencer role. My business model is definitely digital media. Michelle-This season of the Plutus Awards Podcast we're talking about the 7 deadly sins that creators need to be aware of making in their businesses. We're definitely talking about this with a lot of empathy. How did you even get into this space? Rahkim-I fell in by accident. A happy accident. I spent 10 years in the banking industry. And one of the things I realized was that there was a lot that I didn't know about money. In my banking career I had to learn about the products in order to sell them. I realized what I wasn't exposed to growing up. For example-the idea of homeownership. It didn't occur to me that homeownership was available to me. I shared my knowledge with my friends and family because they also didn't know. Michelle-What's interesting around your brand and mission is that it's positioned around firing your boss. Rahkim-The best decision I've ever made and the hardest decision I've ever made. I had to figure out how I was going to move forward and figuring out how I was going to survive. It's been a liberating experience, but the biggest takeaway for me is that my mental health has improved significantly. The idea of “I fired my boss” is to take back your power. Michelle-What are some of the ways your building out your brand and components of your business? Rahkim-I like this question. When I first started I didn't know what to do. A lot of the growth I've experienced is based on a combination of things. Being active on Twitter, reels, etc. But, what solidified my credibility was contributing to publications and being featured. People look at you as a thought leader. Michelle-You're talking about building up your authority. What about building out how you're making money? Let's deep dive into the product's conversation and the deadly sin related to product. Rahkim-Most of my money comes from solidifying that credibility. I do a lot of writing and the writing brings in income. I wouldn't have gotten paid for my writing if I was writing for free first. I also do some social media management, get paid to speak and one-on-one financial coaching. Going into products I was approached by a coach to build out a course. I was like “oh, ok.” I'd never thought about creating a course and this should be easy. I was convinced to do it and paid the coach to help me with it. I drank the kool aid. I thought I was going to pay a high ticket price, etc. Then, I would invest in Facebook ads. I spent 4 figures in Facebook advertising no sales, 4 figures in retaining the ad agency, 4 figures for the coach. And the thing that I learned in hindsight I didn't ask my audience is this what they actually wanted (from me). The difference between my content and the course is that it's not sexy. It's not “I'm going to bring your credit score to 850 in 30 days” I was advised to market it differently and I knew that I couldn't because the content was about abstract topics and the psychology of money. Not sexy. I really didn't test the market and I assumed that I knew best and that they would buy. Michelle-That's a hard lesson especially because you developed a course and you have to factor in the time that you took to do that. I think a lot of content creators make this mistake. It's hard to hear from people to pre-sell a product. It feels weird to make sales on a product that doesn't feel real. Rahkim-The coach did give me the advice to run a pre-sell and it didn't really work. The coach and I even worked out what the revenue would like for pre-sells vs. post sales. The coach and I were friends prior to this and I trusted that their expertise was aligned with what they were articulating based on our friendship. This did have a negative impact on our friendship. There was very minimal involvement with the coach; they were theoretical versus on-hand. In hindsight I should have asked for a case study showing their results with other clients. Michelle-You're in the process of developing new products and how does this experience influence that process? Rahkim-There's definitely trauma associated with it. I haven't abandoned the course and it lives in two places and rebranded the content and repriced it. As far as moving forward, I have a better pulse on what my audience resonates with. My favorite platform to test content on is Twitter and then Instagram is a close second. And then launching a pre-sell around these products to see the pace of buy in versus engagement. Because someone likes an idea on a post doesn't mean that they're going to buy something. There's so much momentum with the Great Resignation and Work From Home because of the Pandemic. It doesn't just mean quit your job. Michelle-What types of products are you looking at and why? Rahkim-I am working on a book. That's the biggest product that has gained a lot of momentum. I've started some pre-sells around that. The process of emptying my mind of all of those experiences and the real, raw things about being in corporate America (has been hard) Michelle-I know that a lot of people in the PF space write books as a way to get in front of other people and launch your brand. Are you prepared for some of the energy around the book and the reception of the book? What are you doing to get the book out there?Are you worried about missing out on this wave of interest? Rahkim-That's a good question. But, I got burnt out. I got to a point where I felt like I was done and then I looked at the word count and it wasn't enough. I took a pause and in taking a pause to take the time to decompress and heal. I've been able to reflect and let those experiences marinate. I've asked my audience for some grace. I just continue telling my story. My audience has grown during this time due to viral posts and national television coverage. Michelle-It's an evergreen topic. I think that you've tapped into a feeling and sentiment that had really good timing with millions of people (in the U.S.) quitting. Rahkim-When I hit a one year mark having made that decision and people congratulated me. Michelle-What's your goal for next year? Rahkim-To continue to be free. Continue the momentum, continue to find ways to make income as an entrepreneur. It's a little scary. Making smart choices financially to allow me to sustain this lifestyle.

Vallejo Police Det. Jarrett Tonn shot Sean Monterrosa in the back of the head on June 2, 2020, amid wide-scale looting following the police murder of George Floyd in Mineapolis. Since then, Tonn's been fired — and soon likely rehired — and the California Attorney General is still deciding whether he'll face criminal charges. At the same time, Sean's sisters, Michelle and Ashley, are trying to avoid burning out while fighting for justice for Sean and on behalf of the dozens of other families impacted by police killings in Vallejo.  EPISODE: [scanner traffic] In the early morning hours of June 2nd 2020… caravans of burglars continued to break into businesses all over Solano County… stealing what they could… trying to get guns, pot, cash and prescription medications.  As police officers from across the area scattered throughout the city to respond to the roving thefts…  SCANNER: If anybody passes that, we're coming from Concord. …Vallejo Police Detective Jarrett Tonn… badge number 673 and a member of the department's SWAT team… was scared.  He'd heard ANTIFA was coming to town. TONN: And there had also been some online social media chatter about specifically those people and Antifa actually, coming into Vallejo to, to do violence and cause harm.   Shortly after midnight… Tonn and two other detectives witnessed a group of people breaking into the Walgreens on Redwood Street. Captain Lee Horton… badge number 5-43… told them to drive into the parking lot… as he went around the back… hoping to box in the looters.  As the detectives drove in… Horton warned over the radio… that the suspects could have weapons. HORTON: Wearing all black. It looks like they're armed. Possibly armed. Horton would later tell internal investigators… he broadcasted out that the subjects were possibly armed… because one of them had something in his hand. HORTON: I saw some kind of object in his hand but I couldn't identify what it was. That person was 22-year-old Sean Monterrosa… a first generation San Francisco native…and the son of Argentinian immigrants. A carpenter by trade… Sean had a roofing hammer tucked into the pocket of his hoodie. Video surveillance footage released by Vallejo police shows him trying to break into a locked cabinet in the Walgreens pharmacy… just minutes before he was killed.  SCANNER: Shots fired. Suspect down.  DISPATCHER: Copy. Shots fired, suspect down on Redwood.  Tonn… who had already been involved in three shootings since joining Vallejo police in 2014…  was sitting in the middle of the backseat of an unmarked pickup truck. Before it had even come to a full stop… he fired his high-powered rifle five times through the truck's windshield… hitting Monterrosa once in the back of the head…  killing him instantly. TONN: Hey, he pointed a gun at us.  TONN 2: Hey, he tried to pull a gun out on you know, pointed a gun at us.  Despite finding out that the suspected gun was actually a hammer… Vallejo internal affairs investigator… Detective Kevin Rose… badge number 680… let Tonn run with the idea that he found himself in immediate danger.  ROSE: Do you feel like you had any other options?  TONN: No, none whatsoever. ROSE: Were the suspects immediate actions prior to your firing your weapon indicative of any other action to you? TONN: The only thing and again, this is why I say, now that I know after the fact I'm 100% baffled of what could have happened. Everything he did at that time, and still my mind that was the actions of someone who is going to take you know, you know, attack us and try to kill us…  [fade under] Sean's death came in the middle of international protests over the police murder of George Floyd… which happend just a week earlier. Sean's killing thrust his older sister Michelle… and younger sister Ashley… first into a panicked rush for answers… and now a years-long quest for justice… that they're still figuring out how to sustain.  MICHELLE: Fuck the police, fuck the police, fuck the pigs, took my brother, too. And I don't want anyone to go through what we went through. Enough is enough…  ASHLEY: We just buried our brother yesterday…  The Monterrosa sisters vowed to be the last family to have a loved one killed by the Vallejo Police Department. Officers there have shot and killed 18 people since 2010.  As of this recording… current Vallejo Police Chief Shawny Williams… the first Black man to hold the seat… has managed to keep his officers from killing anyone for the last two years… something the department hasn't been able to do for decades.  But following the killing of Sean Monterrosa…  something different happened. KQED's THE BAY:  Ericka Cruz Guevarra: Vallejo police chief Shawny Williams has served a notice of intent to fire officer Jarrett Taan who shot and killed 22 year old Sean Monterosa in June of last year.  Sukey Lewis: This is a really big step for the city in terms of being able to point to something to show you know civilians who have been criticizing the police department and the accountability process that look we're firing moving to fire this officer who you know was involved in this very high profile controversial shooting. In December… Jarett Tonn became the first Vallejo police officer in at least 20 years to lose his job… directly related to killing someone on-duty. It was one of several reforms Michelle and Ashley are happy to see finally happening within the Vallejo Police Department.  MICHELLE: We've seen progress and it took a lot for us to step back and kind of analyze the wins the many victories and wins we've had in between, obviously, the Attorney General taking on the case was huge too, Tonn being fired is huge.  That was until last Friday… when sources confirmed to the Vallejo Sun that Jarrett Tonn is likely to get his job back… because a mandatory review hearing for law enforcement officers facing discipline… overturned his termination for use of force violations.  While the Monterrosa family was upset about Tonn returning to the Vallejo Police Department… they still await to hear whether he'll be charged with a crime.  MICHELLE: There's a lot of little things playing but I don't think the outcomes are any different, or demands are still always the same… the California DOJ can bring, go arrest him and bring those charges forward.  State Attorney General Rob Bonta agreed to investigate Monterrosa's killing… but only after his predecessor… Xavier Becerra… and Solano County District Attorney Krishna Abrams… both refused. BONTA: Jobs have easy parts and they have hard parts and it's really important that we do all the parts of our jobs. Sometimes a specific issue or case has a lot of public interest and public scrutiny, we must still do our job in those cases. The shooting remains a political issue in the hotly contested Solano County DA's race. Abrams' opponent… Chief Deputy DA Sharon Henry… says Abrams abdicated her responsibility. HENRY: Officer involved shootings, those decisions should be made by the local district attorney. If a shooting happens in Solano County, the decision should be made by the Solano County DA. My name is Brian Krans. I'm a reporter with the Vallejo Sun. In this episode… we're going to look back on the Vallejo police killing of Sean Monterrosa two years later…  ONE YEAR RALLY: Song: “...Sean Monterrosa…” We're also going to cover why the police killing is still a major political issue at the county and state level… and hear from the Monterrosa sisters about their fight for justice… while grieving in public… and still trying to find some semblance of normalcy in their lives. ASHLEY: We can scream and bleed and do whatever we can and sometimes they just won't even listen. And it's like we're screaming at a brick wall. Sometimes that's what it feels. Yeah.  MICHELLE: It's just a lot and you know, the system expects families to keep going, keep trying to like, find normality after all, all of this, and it's hard for everyone. Everyone interprets trauma differently. But it's just fucked up [laughs]. Yeah INTRO

What are the regulatory pathways used in the United States versus the European Union (EU)? Dealing with regulators can be challenging and emotionally draining. Win in the U.S. and EU marketplace by delegating all things regulatory to a grief counselor. In this episode of the Global Medical Device Podcast, Jon Speer and Etienne Nichols talk to Michelle Lott, Founder and Principal of leanRAQA. Also, she served a four-year term on the FDA's Device Good Manufacturing Practice Advisory Committee (DGMPAC).Michelle is on a mission to help smaller companies with regulatory strategy, planning, submissions, audit preparation and remediation, due diligence, quality systems, and compliance.Some of the highlights of this episode include:Why new clients work with Michelle: It's easy to find a competent regulatory person, but how many are you going to enjoy working with and able to make you laugh when you really feel like crying?Even with the adoption of EU MDR, people are still in denial when it comes to those with certificates that expire in May 2024 and think they still have time to get certificates reissued.Several small companies, as well as large corporations, are choosing to not go to market or withdraw products in the EU because of the lack of value and revenue.The cost, clinical data, and limited number of notified bodies are some of the biggest challenges for those in the EU versus U.S. market.Companies should perform a market analysis to determine if their revenue model will support year-over-year costs and third-party fees to stay in the EU market.The impact to quality in the European healthcare system could turn the U.S. into a destination for medical tourism. It could happen if an analysis is not done by the government or competent authority.A quality management system (QMS) has to have an ISO 13485 certification in the EU. The U.S. doesn't require a QMS until a product is put into commercialization and meets performances, standards, and expectations.According to Michelle, the five stages of regulatory grief are denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance.Memorable quotes from Michelle Lott:“If you don't have a relationship with a notified body yet, you're already almost too late. You just can't make any commitments to or marketing plans for the EU right now, in terms of timing.”“The first thing is to do that market analysis, and then, if they decide that Europe is still something that they want to do, second, you need to get in line with a notified body.”“There's no such thing as grandfathering underneath the EU.”“There were 18,000 certificates issued under MDD, and only one percent of those have made it all the way through MDR.”“To properly prepare technical documentation, it is truly a cross-functional effort and it's going to require a lot of very in-depth expertise.”Links:Michelle Lott on LinkedInRegulatory + Quality Assurance (leanRAQA)leanRAQA - Free GuidesRAQA Today PodcastFDA - Device Good Manufacturing Practice Advisory Committee (DGMPAC)European Union - Medical Device Regulation (EU MDR)ISO 13485FDA - Quality Management System Regulation (QMSR)True Quality 2022The Greenlight Guru True Quality Virtual SummitGreenlight Guru YouTube ChannelMedTech True Quality Stories PodcastGreenlight Guru AcademyGreenlight GuruGlobal Medical Device Podcast Email

In tonight's episode, I'm joined with my sisters as we come together to speak on topics that others refuse or are afraid to speak about and discuss conversations that are much needed. So tonight we are having the discussions!!!Follow the Ladies:Mz. Ty - Red Lipstick Vibes Podcasthttps://www.youtube.com/c/RedLipstick...Kyia - Juss Kyia Real Talk Dailyhttps://www.youtube.com/c/JussKyiaRea...Michelle - It's Mi, Chelle Podcast on IG @its.mi.chelleCharice - Grown Ass Folk Podcast on IG @grownassfolkpodcast Support the show (https://paypal.me/pillowtalkwithquaash?locale.x=en_US)

On the last Wednesday of every month, Christy & Michelle answer listener questions live on the show - YAWA! This month we're answering questions about: engagement parties, a ceremony planner, a bride with fibromyalgia and eloping in France! We're able to produce this podcast because of YOUR support. If you want to learn more, check out our Patreon Page (https://www.patreon.com/thebigweddingplanningpodcast). If you want to become a Patron (https://www.patreon.com/thebigweddingplanningpodcast), and get exclusive access to our monthly newsletter, bonus episodes, and more, check out our Patreon Page (https://www.patreon.com/thebigweddingplanningpodcast)! A giant thank you to all of our Patrons, who help keep this podcast running! Learn more by checking out our Patreon Page (https://www.patreon.com/thebigweddingplanningpodcast). Plan your wedding using The Big Wedding Planning Master Class (https://www.thebigweddingplanningmasterclass.com/). A self-paced digital course created with love for you by Christy & Michelle. Question #1 I got engaged in December 2020 and my wedding is in May 2022. I'm doing a destination wedding with about 40 vaccinated people. This was planned with Covid in mind. We are fortunate enough to be able to have our wedding at a winery that has a bnb which we were able to rent out for all of our guests. So we will have our own little bubble for our wedding weekend, which I'm so excited for. I do have a lot of family members who would still like to celebrate me and my fiancé and while I appreciate that, I kind of feel uncomfortable throwing any type of engagement party or bridal shower where I have family that's attending but not invited to the wedding. I just feel like I don't want to be throwing a party and expecting people to feel like they need to help me throw a party or give me gifts or anything, especially if they're not coming to my wedding, which is absolutely not what I want. My mom and soon-to-be mother-in-law though is constantly reassuring me that, that's not what people are thinking and people just want to celebrate us, but I just wanted to know your thoughts on having a bigger engagement party or bridal shower as opposed to the not having a wedding that would include all those people that are invited to the precursor events. AnswerChristy: If they want to host a party for you, the guests at that party are more likely to be there for them and less for you. Not to say it's not about you, it is. But there is less room for the weirdness of them not being invited to the wedding. Try to get out of your own way a little bit. This party could be a totally hands off, fun day for you. People do just want to celebrate you with your mom and mother in law. Michelle: It does feel a bit weird. And can be easy to gravitate to the awkwardness of expectations. However, when people have a destination wedding, they never invite everyone or at least not as many people as they would if it were local. As long as most of your guests are aware that you're having a very small wedding, and that your mom and mother in law just want to have a party/celebration, then it could be really good. Let them handle the whole thing. The wording of the invite should be about a celebration of you getting married. If the original driver for a small wedding was covid safety, make sure they know that too. Question #2 2 questions - one is regarding a catering coordinator, and the second is about getting ready time for 6 ladies. 1. Do I need a ceremony planner? We have booked a caterer, and their services come with "Basic Coordination". It seems like this coordination covers everything we need for planning the reception, but their planning is very hands-off when it comes to the ceremony. Do you think we should hire a planner to just cover the ceremony? 2. Getting ready schedule: We are going to have an 11am ceremony, and I am a little worried about the getting-ready schedule in the morning. Our photographer would like to have our first look at 9am. I'm a morning person, and I'm happy to wake up around 6am but don't want to wake up earlier than that so that I'm not panicked about sleeping the night before. Do you think there is a reasonable way to fit this into the morning without making everyone wake up too early? Is it reasonable to ask a hairdresser to only spend 30 mins max on each person's hair? What if the bridesmaids come to the venue a bit later than me because they don't need to be ready by the first look? Answer 1. It depends. Is your ceremony at the same place as your reception? Is your officiant a professional, or a friend? Is there a venue manager? (I'm thinking about who will be there to manage Strike at the end of the night.) If there is a venue manager, you can probably get away without one. If not, and your officiant is not a professional, and the venue isn't necessarily used to weddings, you should definitely hire one. Also, the final chapter in our masterclass is all about this. Including ceremony, rehearsal, layout, etc. 2. Totally have your gals do their own makeup and talk to the hair stylist about your desire to keep this part of the day pretty short and simple - I think 45 minutes per lady is what she is going to prefer. She should be able to help you with a timeline. And if she can bring an assistant, you'll be able to get more done in less time. Also - bridesmaids usually know that part of the 'job' is waking up early and being there whenever the bride tells you to be! Question #3 I hope I'm not jumping the gun in my question, but I have a big one (in my opinion). I have a chronic illness, fibromyalgia. It can be very tolling on me. Fibromyalgia causes widespread pain and serious fatigue. There are times when I just can't function because of my illness and I want to stay in bed. I am worried that this could happen to me on the big day OR that I may not be able to enjoy the big day as much because I will be overexerting myself. Often, when I overdo myself or have higher than normal levels of stress then I suffer the consequences. We recently celebrated our engagement with an engagement party, and man oh man was that tough!! I was a social butterfly, greeting and celebrating with all my guests. I was spent by the end of the night, and don't even get me started with my recovery over the next couple of days. I'm bumming out/worrying that I won't be able to celebrate in the bedroom on my wedding night, if you know what I mean ;). I'm wondering what advice you may have for a chronically ill bride to be? I know what I can do on my end, such as resting leading up to the day but I'm curious if you have specific ideas on what I can do on my wedding day to make things easier on me. I hope my question can help many individuals because I can only imagine I'm not the only one that suffers from some type of chronic illness. Answer This is such a good question - I'm glad you wrote us! And I'm really glad that you are finding the podcast helpful with wedding planning so far. I don't know what I have any good advice for you since you know your own body and your ebbs and flows with this illness. I know you are already thinking of mitigation strategies...I haven't worked with anyone with chronic pain like this, but I have worked with a groom with intense social anxiety and he ended up cutting out of his own reception about three hours early on the wedding night. I think you need to give yourself a lot of grace and ask your close friends and family to help you manage things on the wedding day...like, have a few Plan Bs for the whole wedding weekend..."if this, then this", type of stuff. Your people want to help you enjoy the weekend to YOUR fullest extent and they will likely be a lot easier on you than you are on yourself! Also, please know that most people don't actually ef on the wedding night. Everyone is exhausted/drunk/over it/exhausted again. You have plenty of time for that later! And staying in one location will definitely make it easier on you and everyone else! I think you should make sure to take a few days off before the wedding, and a few days off afterwards, honeymoon or not. Take care of yourself and listen to your body. I hope this helps a little! We do have an episode coming out soon with a health and wellness advocate and she talks about events for people with autism and other issues/illnesses, and how to create a fun environment for everyone, but I don't know that she speaks to chronic pain specifically. Question #4 For background, we are eloping to France next April and then hosting a small (35-ish people) dinner party at a resort venue in Sonoma County, California next May after we get back from our honeymoon. We live in Michigan with family and friends all over the place. My question is: the venue for the dinner is beautiful but I would like to add perhaps some flowers or greenery to the table. The majority of our budget is going towards the elopement and the venue/food/beverage fee for the California dinner party so I need to find a very low-cost option. I've looked into decor rentals and they are beyond what I would want to spend for a simple, 3-hour celebration dinner. I also thought of having guests each bring a bouquet to display on the table but we are already asking them to fly across the country and book accommodations so that doesn't seem fair. I would love your thoughts on how I could add something to the plain white linens that are included with our venue space. Traveling from Michigan, I won't have much room to bring things with me since I will also be bringing my wedding dress to wear for everyone. Answer This dinner sounds absolutely lovely. In Sonoma, you are surrounded by beauty, and the food/ wine will be wonderful. I don't think you need to do much for decor. If you can't afford rentals - and it's wine country where they are VERY expensive - then totally scrap the idea. White linens, regular chairs and tons of bud vases with grocery store flowers will 100% do the trick. For greenery - you can get fresh eucalyptus branches and snip them ahead of time, then use them on any supplemental tables, like a dessert table, or a welcome table, or as a runner in front of you and your fiancé at the table. Little candles are always beautiful and photograph really well (just make sure you ask the venue about candle rules too - little tea lights in glass votive holders are usually fine). I like save-on-crafts.com for vases and candles. You can also get really cheap glass vases at Walmart or the dollar store. If you're going with small vases, it's easier to do your own flowers. But you need a LOT, imo. Still very affordable. Links We Referenced: save-on-crafts.com (https://www.save-on-crafts.com/) The Big Wedding Planning Podcast is... * Hosted and produced by Christy Matthews and Michelle Martinez. * Edited by Veronica Gruba. * Music by Steph Altman of Mophonics (https://www.mophonics.com/). * On Instagram @thebigweddingplanningpodcast and be sure to use #planthatwedding when posting, so you can get our attention! * Inviting you to become part of our Facebook Group! Join us and our amazing members. Just search for The Big Wedding Planning Podcast Community on Facebook. * Easy to get in touch with. Email us at thebigweddingplanningpodcast@gmail.com or Call and leave a message at 415-723-1625 and you might hear your voice on an episode * On Patreon. Become a member (https://www.patreon.com/thebigweddingplanningpodcast) and with as little as $5 per month, you get bonus episodes, special newsletters and Zoom Cocktail Hours with Christy & Michelle! Our Partners (https://www.thebigweddingplanningpodcast.com/partners) Special Deals for Listeners - TBWPP Enthusiastically Approved! Wedfuly (https://wedfuly.com/bigwedding/) SuitShop (https://suitshop.com/?utm_campaign=EngagedLeads&utm_content=BWPPPartnership&utm_medium=BWPP&utm_source=ReferralLink) The Flashdance (https://www.theflashdance.com/virtual-party-the-big-wedding-planning-podcast) Cactus Collective (https://www.cactus-collective.com/the-big-wedding-planning-podcast/) Unboring Wedding Academy (https://www.unboringweddingacademy.com/bigwedding/)

Karlie & Josh got engaged a month before the United States shut down due to the COVID-19 Pandemic. Despite the challenges and uncertainty, they were married in May of 2021. Karlie is an avid listener of The Big Wedding Planning Podcast (https://www.thebigweddingplanningpodcast.com/) AND a user of The Big Wedding Planning Master Class (https://www.thebigweddingplanningmasterclass.com/). With our help (yeah, we love hearing that!), Karlie was able to plan a wedding that most of her family and friends had never experienced before. Big Takeaways Karlie & Josh were on a strict budget, and could not afford a wedding planner. However, they were able to pay to consult with a wedding planner multiples times. Having that resource of someone who can help suss out details and ease stresses is a big game changer, even if they can't be included in the whole process Karlie & Josh also purchased The Big Wedding Planning Master Class (https://www.thebigweddingplanningmasterclass.com/) to guide them in their planning and really iron out the details. Assigning people to tasks at specific times, and having the whole day lined up before it starts allowed them to enjoy the day without sweating over each detail when they should be celebrating. Before the ceremony, they opted to exchange gifts and read their vows to each other. These things helped ease the stress and nervousness. They read the more generic vows during the public ceremony, but kept the self-written, more intimate vows private between the two of them when they saw each other the morning of the wedding day. Remember even the most thoughtful beings are still human, be gentle and forgiving with your partner. They will mess up sometimes. The day was a success, but the best day in their opinion was the day after the wedding. Being done with the stress of it all was the biggest relief and it was the day they started off as a married couple. Quotes “You're just like those people that kind of pick you up, and dust you off.” - Karlie to Christy & Michelle “It gave me the great fondness, and love in my heart that all my guests had the ability to do what they wanted to do.” - Karlie “It hit a point where he was like, ‘Karlie, had I known that it was going to be that bad, I would have hired a wedding planner. We would have made it in the budget, because this is just a lot on us right now.'” - Karlie (What Josh told her after the planning) “Value your sanity, more than you value your wedding.” - Karlie (Karlie' advice to those planning a wedding) Plan your wedding using The Big Wedding Planning Master Class (https://www.thebigweddingplanningmasterclass.com/). A self-paced digital course created with love for you by Christy & Michelle. The Big Wedding Planning Podcast is... * Hosted and produced by Christy Matthews and Michelle Martinez. * Edited by Veronica Gruba. * Music by Steph Altman of Mophonics (https://www.mophonics.com/). * On Instagram @thebigweddingplanningpodcast and be sure to use #planthatwedding when posting, so you can get our attention! * Inviting you to become part of our Facebook Group! Join us and our amazing members. Just search for The Big Wedding Planning Podcast Community on Facebook. * Easy to get in touch with. Email us at thebigweddingplanningpodcast@gmail.com or Call and leave a message at 415-723-1625 and you might hear your voice on an episode * On Patreon. Become a member (https://www.patreon.com/thebigweddingplanningpodcast) and with as little as $5 per month, you get bonus episodes, special newsletters and Zoom Cocktail Hours with Christy & Michelle! Our Partners (https://www.thebigweddingplanningpodcast.com/partners) Special Deals for Listeners - TBWPP Enthusiastically Approved! Wedfuly (https://wedfuly.com/bigwedding/) SuitShop (https://suitshop.com/?utm_campaign=EngagedLeads&utm_content=BWPPPartnership&utm_medium=BWPP&utm_source=ReferralLink) The Flashdance (https://www.theflashdance.com/virtual-party-the-big-wedding-planning-podcast) Cactus Collective (https://www.cactus-collective.com/the-big-wedding-planning-podcast/) Unboring Wedding Academy (https://www.unboringweddingacademy.com/bigwedding/)

Joffre: ¡Hola a todos! Mi nombre es Joffre, hoy hablaremos acerca de la expresión “arar en el mar”, se atribuye esta expresión al libertador Simón Bolívar, que al ver como sus ideas de libertad terminaron en batallas entre los pueblos. Además, trataremos de encontrar su equivalente en inglés, para eso tendremos la ayuda de nuestras amigas Nancy, Michelle, Belkis y Jess. Además, escucharemos ejemplos de español e inglés con nuestros amigos Alfredo y nuestro amigo John desde Chicago. ¡Iniciemos! ¡Arar en el mar! Nancy: Esa es la frase de Bolívar, ¿no? Joffre: Yes, I believe that Simón Bolívar used that phase many years ago, so, arar en el mar. Nancy: That will be it. Joffre: Have you heard that expression, Jess? “Arar en el mar”. Jess: No, I haven't heard that one. That's a new one for me. Joffre: (Risas) What about you, Belkis? Belkis: Yeah, definitely I've heard this one (Risas). Joffre: Could you tell us the meaning of that phrase, Belkis, please? Belkis: Mmm I think is like when you actually work really hard for something and then at the end it's not what you expected, it could be something like that. Joffre: Uh-huh. Nancy: The literal translation is plowing the sea, right? It's like plowing the sea. Joffre: Uh-huh. Nancy: So, we have a phrase, I think maybe not exactly the way you described it Belkis, but we have a phrase, it's like “herding cats”, like “herding cats” like it's impossible to herd cats, right? Joffre: Okay, to herd cats? Nancy: To get them to do what you want them to do. Yeah, herding is like me or you, you are moving cows or sheep around, right? You herd them too, you get them to follow along, but you can't get cats to do that. Joffre: Okay, yes, it's like Belkis said, it is like when you are, let's say that I'm trying to or someone it's trying to teach me to play the guitar and it's taking like one year and I'm not learning anything. Nancy: Uh-huh, okay. Joffre: That person say: No, “estoy arando en el mar”. I'm wasting my time Nancy: Uh-huh. Joffre: Because he's not learning anything. Hasta ahora Nancy nos ha enseñado que arar en el mar puede ser equivalente con “herding cats”, que sería como pastorear gatos, son rebeldes y no vas a lograr que todos te hagan caso, que todos vayan a un lugar común. “Estas arando en el mar” cuando quieres que todos los gatos estén en un solo lugar. Escuchemos un ejemplo con nuestro amigo Alfredo desde Ecuador. Alfredo: Para mi “arar en el mar” sería como cuando yo le crio a mi hijo con principios, con valores, con buenos modales, enseñándole todo lo mejor que yo pueda porque siempre los padres queremos lo mejor para los hijos, pero en alguna parte de la vida mi hijo se desvía por el camino del mal metiéndose en drogas, en licores, en cosas malas, entonces, eso para mi sería haber arado en el mar porque no sirvió de nada todo el esfuerzo, todo el afán que le puse. Michelle: I think in English we also say, “labor in vain” “I'm laboring in vain”. Nancy: Laboring in vain, yes. Michelle: Doing a lot of work but not getting anywhere. Joffre: Exactly, “laboring in vain”. Velkis: Yeah. Nancy: Yes, I think that is more than like “herding cats”, yes (Risas) Nancy: That's what I do with my family, I try to herd cats to get them to do something and it doesn't work. Michelle: That's what our captain always says about our team: - Trying to get you ladies on the field is like “herding cats”! Michelle: It's a little light harder than “laboring in vain” that is a little bit more serious. Nancy: Yeas, exactly, you're right, uh-uh. Jess: We have a similar, well, I think, perhaps more similar to Spanish version we have in England, I'm not sure if it's common in ****NO MORE SPACE HERE**** FREE COMPLETE TRANSCRIT AT https://cutt.ly/LxsIwYg***

Are pursuing better movement and better physiology mutually exclusive? There appears to be a divide between performance and health. Many argue that you cannot get bigger, stronger, faster, while still moving like boss. Others fear pushing heavy weight, relegating their program to mostly ground-based breathing resets. But does it have to be this way? That's the question that Michelle Boland, Tim Richardt, Francis Hoare, and I wrestle with, proving several examples of how this dichotomy is more often than not FALSE! In this podcast, you'll learn: How Francis was able to put on 11 pounds in one year and have better range of motion throughout his body The false dichotomy between performance and health How to increase movement in those who already have lots of muscle mass, but seek to move better and have less pain How the general population can increase fitness, muscle growth, and movement all at once Getting a training effect to those who are in pain Key Performance Indicators (KPIs) for moving well Are basic resets necessary to maintain movement options? How to balance expansive vs compressive activities Pairing respiration with training How to balance client's wants and needs The big rocks to maximizing movement options How to decide what your body composition should be Ready to move better, get stronger, and become an absolute savage? Look below to watch the interview, listen to the podcast, get the show notes, and read the modified transcripts. Check the video here. Learn more about our guests More Train, Less Pain Podcast - A podcast specifically designed around engineering the adaptable athlete. Michelle Boland Michelle is the owner of Michelle Boland Training which provides many services including, in-person 1:1 training sessions, coaching people remotely, writing training programs, and educational content for fellow trainers and fitness professionals who want to take complex training concepts and turn them into real outcomes for clients. Michelle has a bachelor's degree in Nutrition, a master's degree in Strength and Conditioning, and a doctorate in Exercise Physiology. Michelle was previously a strength and conditioning coach at a Division 1 institution and Director of Education at a private training facility. Instagram: dr.michelleboland Work with Michelle: https://michelle-boland-training.mykajabi.com/Work_With_Me Tim Richardt Tim Richardt is a Doctor of Physical Therapy, Strength and Conditioning Coach, and Owner of Richardt Performance and Rehabilitation located in Denver, CO. He specializes in the treatment and preparation of humans that like to run, lift, or play in the mountains. He currently offers personal training, physical therapy, and professional mentorship services.   His website Instagram: @Tim_Richardt_dpt Francs Hoare Francis Hoare is a Performance Coach and the Member Experience Director at Elevate Sports Performance & Healthcare in Las Vegas. He has helped hundreds of people of all ages and abilities improve their health, lives,l and athletic performance. Hitting the path to your goals efficiently requires being specific. Francis excels at creating programs tailored to your needs and goals. If you need someone to hold you accountable with high energy, Francis is one of the best in our industry. His motivational tactics ensure you both get challenged and succeed. When Francis is not coaching, he spends his time with his wife and two daughters, in the mountains or devouring a pint of Ben & Jerry's.   Instagram: @FrancisHoare and @ElevateSPH Show notes Here are links to things mentioned in the interview: Here is Francis' before and after pic [caption id="attachment_13492" align="aligncenter" width="500"] More gains AND better movement? Sold![/caption] Ben House - A master of science and training Mike Israetel - A bodybuilder with a unique approach to getting hyooge! Costa Rica Underground S&C 2018 Retreat Review -  This is what we reference on the bro retreat, where we discuss hypertrophy and more Peep the video below to see how my getting fat took away my squat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEZZEWyBN78 The drunken turtle is a great move to improve backside expansion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjmjUihXtrs Lucy Hendricks - An excellent coach who does a great job of pushing physiology while improving movement options. Bill Hartman - Daddy-O Pops, the godfather of many of the movement concepts we discuss. Georgie Fear - My nutrition coach, and a master of behavior change Modified Transcripts A hypertrophy and movement case study Zac Cupples: How can I get huge as all hell while still moving well? How can I preserve these two qualities? That's why I wanted to bring my boy Francis here. He is a very effective case study of how we were able to do merge these two goals. Here's his story: Francis Hoare:  The last six years, five or six years or so, been doing a lot of running, 35, 40 miles mostly, mostly trail running. I competed in Spartan races, couple 24-hour races in there as well just for fun. I would spend quite a bit of my vacation time, go into places like Yosemite or Glacier National Park and either getting a cabin and going into the parks and doing a lot of hiking and running or backpacking. Because of my exercise choices, I had a fair bit of strength, but more biased toward rock climbing, American Ninja Warrior type stuff, a few lifting sessions per week, and about 8-10 hours of running each week. The issue was this style of training led to my like calves constantly hurting, hips constantly hurting, stuff like that. I was getting burnt out from the running. I decided to take a break, then quarantine it. It was the perfect time to put on some weight! I just met Dr. Zac and instantly, the stuff that he was talking about just captivated me. This stuff was hard. It would torture you, yet at the same time I'd feel good afterwards. I had a pump and felt more mobile. That's where it started. Zac: We spent the first couple blocks testing you and trying a few different interventions just to see what would work. And then- Francis: There was a lot of learn by doing. Because we weren't working with clients during the quarantine, I was able to wrap my head around all this stuff that Zac was talking about. It helped me troubleshoot what areas to improve movement-wise. If there were times where Zac was giving me some high-level stuff, and it just wasn't connecting with me, so we could pull the ropes back and build from the ground up. It was super beneficial as a strength coach. Once our gym, our facility was able to open up, I had a whole new set of tools to work with my members with. Zac: After you built that foundation, you took the concepts and ran with it for yourself. With more of a hypertrophy-focus. Francis: This all started in April. So, I did not rush this process at all, which, which helped me immensely. I knew I wanted to put on weight but didn't have a specific number. I just wanted to feel better and move better. My first girl was learning the basics movement-wise; starting with squatting, tucking, etc. I paired all that with eating more. I was keeping things in the 8-12 rep range, and that's how the process started. Zac: Yeah. And so, I'd say, correct me if I'm wrong, we probably spent a couple months building the movement foundation, and then you just kind of made it more hypertrophy volumes and and intensities for the last four or five months. Francis: No, I think I'm about eight weeks in to, you know, what on paper would look more like a hypertrophy phase, I was able to put on some weight again, just by hitting reps of 8 to 12 and doing new stuff and not running. Zac: Always good. Always good to know. Francis: Late October we really buckled down. Holidays are coming out and I'm going to eat a lot. So, let me take that guilt away from eating a lot by going into an official hypertrophy phase and yeah, all we did was we picked up the movements that we liked, assess how progress was going, and kept it simple over a 4–5-week span. I kept the load down and switched to what I call the 2020 workout—two seconds on the eccentric, two seconds on the concentric, no pausing in between, always staying under tension, never going all the way down or all the way up. You do that for 10 reps, obviously the time should work out to 40 seconds, doing four sets in a row with little rest. I'd do that for my big lift, then do 10 reps of three accessory moves with 30 second's rest. Four more sets of that. So, I'm doing only one movement at a time, knocking out all the sets, then I move on to the next movement. It takes about 30 minutes, which is perfect for my busy work and life schedule. Zac: How much weight have you put on over the year? Francis: 11 pounds so, from 152 to 163. Zac: That's a pretty good change in a year! On my on my end, at least with the movement testing, we had some great changes movement-wise: Hip flexion improved from (left/right) 110 bilaterally to 125/140. Hip internal rotation improved from (left/right) 35/15 to 30/40. Which I'm cool with as it's more symmetrical. I think it was really cool to see because I think a lot of people see this false dichotomy between moving well and getting big. You can only gain muscle by using machines, back squatting, and deadlifting. Yet Francis didn't do a single back squat. Francis: I haven't squatted more than 100 pounds. Zac: But you're doing things well. You're getting tension where you need to get tension. You were able to pack on size without losing movement. In fact, across the board your table measures improved. There may be a path where movement and performance diverge, but not for the overwhelming majority of us. Most of us aren't the elite bodybuilder who is debating whether or not to start using gear. Pursuing hypertrophy and better movement is absolutely doable for the general population. How those with substantial muscle mass can improve movement options Michelle Boland: Why I wanted to jump in this conversation is I want to talk about tearing down vs building up. How do you deal with less loading. I struggle with this personally because of the deep held traditional beliefs and expectations of not only my role as a strength conditioning coach and the years I've spent training. This started with a same as a Francis. Quarantine hit, and I had to think about what my training needed to look like. Evaluate the good and bad. My body shape is closer to a female cross-country runner, I enjoy running, but I went big into the bilateral lifts. Consequently, I've probably kept 12-15 pounds of muscle mass on my frame, past the point of probably where my body wants to be. I shifted to running a bit more and working out from home during the quarantine. Because I didn't track too much, I dropped about 11-12 pounds pretty quickly, and probably all that was muscle mass. This led to feeling some fear of switching my training, but I recognized some mistakes that I've made. My question involves those who have a lot of muscle mass and are currently dealing with aches and pains. If you look at the long game, this may lead to major issues like joint replacements in the future. It's a difficult perspective, but many leaders in the field have been ex-powerlifters who've had a shift in perspective.  What are some strategies these people can employ? I'm sure some muscle mass will be lost in the process, but can they maintain some and move better? Zac: What does it take to grow muscles? The big hypertrophy keys are volume and mechanical tension. That's really it. Kudos to Ben House and Ryan L'Ecuyer for teaching me that. Not once did these two mention back squat or bench press being essential. Hell, even most elite bodybuilders are doing machine-based work. Volume and tension are the key, the modalities are likely irrelevant otherwise. Michelle: Yeah, 100%. Much of what we focus on is isolation exercise to alter position and shape change. One thing I definitely missed was something that Francis stated before, and that's tempos. I think that is a huge factor, especially with pairing movements, simply phases of movements with phases of respiration, the tempo, kind of prescription of exercises is, I think, something that would have maintained kind of gains in something that I'm trying to do now. Francis: And I think stacking helps target the muscles you want better. Squats for example. If you can shift to sandbags and still torch your quads and glutes without back tension, that's a win. Tim Richardt: Another thing that Francis mentioned with what you guys outlined earlier, which I thought was really interesting was just the skew towards higher rep ranges. People talk about getting big, getting strong. 5x5 doesn't quite produce as much of the volume and mechanical tension as the higher rep ranges do. Going after 10, 15, 20 rep maxes lets you maintain movement quality, maintain the stack, and get a lot more of a training stimulus with a lot less of those deleterious secondary consequences that we're trying to step around. Zac: If you don't consider body position, then your only option to create tension is heavy loads. When I was in Costa Rica, I was teaching some bigger dudes the way I coach squatting. Admittedly, I wasn't coaching the squat as well as I am now. I was overtucking and flexing, which led to some trepidation with them. Regardless, with very little weight, their quads were absolutely destroyed. The only other way that sensation could be recreated is through heavy weight. Conversely, we just don't have data to support it one way or another aside from anecdotes. Is the only reason that you got this tension is because it's a novel position that you're not normally in? Or is it we're actually targeting the quads more? That's just something I don't know or have an answer to. What I have seen is those who do a lot of hinge-based work (I consider a back squat along this line) lose movement options. I think to preserve health of the tissues and joints, probably worthwhile to throw in at least some type of stuff that contrasts that. Francis: Depending on the person, I don't think you need to go all one way. If buy-in is limited, then give them a couple breathing resets at the beginning, for their warm up, give them one or two movements to do throughout their set. And take it from there, especially if there's someone who refuses to give up something like deadlifting or back squatting. Try to offset that with their accessory work. Michelle: I think the best thing you can do is every coach needs a coach. My current coach is Eric Huddleston. He's done a great job putting programs together that feed into what I want to be doing and will do. I told him I'm not going to lie on the ground and do resets. Some clients will be that way. ] But he does an amazing, amazing job at creating exercises that just build those concepts in; using tempos paired with phases of respiration; almost like an active reset. With this, I've noticed muscles gains and better movement quality. And he only programs about six exercises per session. The false dichotomy between performance and health Tim: I just want to circle back to something Zac mentioned a couple minutes ago, we have two somewhat incomplete truths. On one hand, we have that being strong is absolutely badass and having some muscle and the ability to produce power is kind of the sign of a healthy human right? It's the strength training is good paradigm. And then there's a lot of people that just say, you know, strength training tightens up joints and muscles, and it leads to an achy, stiff human. And neither of those two statements is completely true nor completely false. It reminds of the interplay between bulking and cutting. For 99.99% of people, it's probably not a thing.  Most individuals tend to be so detrained that they don't need to worry about a specific bulking protocol or cutting protocol. You can do both with intelligent eating and intelligent training. And I think what you guys have outlined is sort of the intelligent eating, intelligent training approach to improving movement options and improving like muscle bulk strength power output concurrently, which is cool. Zac: Even this conversation to some degree is more focused on how coaches can get themselves as jacked as possible. For most of our clients, we are lucky to get them in the gym three times per week! Francis: You definitely have those less dedicated, but I also have people I've trained for years that I'm excited to implement some of this stuff. After the quarantine ended and our gym opened up, we started focusing on stacking; spending a few phases getting good at that. We built our initial phases on that, then were able to focus on more specific qualities. It's not necessarily the what? But the how? And why? And that's where you can get really deep in all this stuff. Tim: And Zac, I might respectfully disagree with the point that you made a couple minutes ago. I think that the people that come to see, you, Francis, Michelle, myself, they tend to be people that are either bad at exercise or just really beat up. If we take those people that have a limited movement option repertoire, and a lot of things are going to hurt, if we can get them a training effect while furthering their movement options, then they don't feel like they're bad at exercise anymore. As opposed to the typical gym where someone might be back squatting on the first day of their program, potentially experiencing pain associated with that.  That's not going to retain clients very effectively. So, I think this stuff really becomes paramount to ensuring a long-term positive client experience. Zac: I would agree with you. Back squats and similar moves have a much higher technical demand than say a goblet squat or a sandbag squat. Francis: You can hand someone a 50-pound sandbag on a ramp, and torch them. It makes your coaching job that much easier. Key performance indicators for better movement Tim: I think one big problem in our industry is not defining terms especially well, this is something that Doug Kechijian talks about all the time where we say things like we want to move well, we don't want to lose motion, but we don't really have a clear idea of what that means. Zac, Francis, what were some of the Key Performance Indicators (KPIs) that you tracked every few weeks as Francis was putting on muscle? And how would you recommend people approach that? Zac: Francis is so lucky because I can table test him on a fairly regular basis. The issue with Francis is many of the standing measures I normally recommend he was pretty good it. His toe touch and squat were full. But if you are limited in those moves, you can always pursue getting them better. They can also be a good gauge on if you are going in a good direction or not. Personally, if I get too fat, I lose my ability to squat and I got a really good video of that happening to me. In the video, I was 200 pounds. Fat as shit. It was a Herculean effort to squat below parallel, I just couldn't do it. But now that I'm leaner, I can squat fairly easily. The key KPI is you need to find stuff that you're limited in, and then just recheck that periodically to make sure that you still have that. That could be an Apley's Scratch test where you check shoulder internal and external rotation. If you get bigger and lose motion, that doesn't mean you need to stop pursuing hypertrophy. You just need to change something to restore some of that motion. It could be getting on the ground and doing a reset. Maybe it's re-evaluating your exercise selection. It's not a matter of maintaining certain movements at all times, but can you get into positions that you should be able to. For Francis in particular, we looked at hip and shoulder range of motion predominately. Francis: Trunk rotation was another thing we tracked. But I also didn't have the toe touch down pat. Zac: You didn't? Francis: No, not at first. But an exercise like drunken turtle cleaned most things up fast. It's easy as a coach to check range of motion, but don't be afraid to use your Coach's Eye too. It can be sometimes hard to describe or put KPIs to good movement, but you also kind of know when you see it. I think this better translates to stuff clients care about as well. Zac: Another example, Lucy Hendricks, she went through a phase where her clients were deadlifting a lot, and subsequently lost their ability to perform a loaded squat well. You could use that as a KPI for your clients. Basically, you have to find a movement that is on the cusp of your capabilities, and then you would just continue to recheck that. Tim, in your case, I think a toe touch is a really good move, because you are right on the edge of being able to get that. if you started severely losing that those gains, we might look at making small tweaks to your program to get that better. Pairing resets with heavy lifting Tim: Is there still a time in place for load it up, and then we'll reset it before you leave? Zac: For me, resets are basically regressed versions of positions that you are trying to get into. For example, Michelle is a good mover and well versed in the knowledge realm. She may be able to attain the positions she needs with loaded exercises. If you can stack and achieve a full squat position under load, I don't see a need to drill down to something less than that. Because you can attain the position that you need. But with the people we work with, they don't have that movement capability. So, we have to choose an activity that has more constraints to it, or get them on their back more, because they don't know how to get their bodies in the positions they need to. Francis: We do work with athletes too and sometimes they come to us on a much shorter timeline than we would want. We understand they have to perform. We can't put our vision ahead of them for that if they are close to in-season. Sometimes the priority is pain freedom. If we can get them out of pain, that can increase buy-in and allow us to do what we need them to do. For me, I didn't deadlift for three months. If you had asked me a year ago, what was my best lift? It would have been deadlift. Me stopping deadlifting was trusting my coach. We have to ask where does this person want to go? How quickly? What kind of trust can you build with them and take it from there. There's not necessarily a broad stroke answer there. It definitely needs to be individualized. Zac: it doesn't mean that a deadlift, back squat, and bench press are bad exercises. In fact, they're quite good if you are chasing force production. I'm currently working with an optometrist and in their field, they look at convergence and divergence. Convergence is really focusing in on a specific point, and then divergence would be looking further out. And it was interesting because she was talking about that, I saw a parallel in the movement realm. She noticed that people who are really good at converging have a tendency to sit with their knees together and be more perched and upright, which is, you know, extension, internal rotation, force production-based qualities. People who are better at diverging, looking further out and seeing large amount of space, sit more chill. Divergence is more expansion and external rotation. Vision drives many of our motor responses. When she's prescribing exercises, you can totally work on convergence-based activities. But these moves can be overdone, creating a loss of divergence in the process. I think the movement realm operates similarly. You can do back squat, and you can do deadlifts. And you can do these activities that drive more force production, more internal rotation, more compression, or whatever stuff you want to say. But if that's all that you focus on, you can potentially lose the other side of that equation. It doesn't seem to be the case where if you do a lot of stuff that is more expansion-based that you lose the ability to compress, because Francis can still deadlift a fair amount. We're tweaking some of your techniques, though. Programming improved movement options Tim: Would it be fair to say that if the goal is maintaining or improving movement options, your initial bias and program is going to be towards more squatting and counternutated-types of activities? Zac: Yeah. The only time I won't do that is if a client is pursuing a sport or thoroughly enjoys a bias towards force production For example, I have one guy right now who we're working through some shoulder pain with benching, but he wants to bench and back squat. Cool, you can keep doing that, I'll just tweak everything around that. Now if I have a situation where I have free rein with someone's program, they don't deadlift for the first couple blocks. The reason being is that most people have movement restrictions. My frame of mind is to first improve movement options as much as possible so their movement menu is larger. It seems like starting with a focus on front-loaded squatting, unilateral work, and considering ribcage structure helps with that. Tim: Branching off that topic. Something I've seen Michelle do a lot is pairing different phases of breathing with different phases of motion. Is that something that you've been utilizing with yourself and with clients recently? Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. That's something I've definitely been doing with my clients and also doing on my own training. It's made a dramatic impact in how I feel. I think the key with implementing is marketing appropriate expectations and linking these activities towards the client's goals and how it can benefit them. Zac: Could you expand upon that, Michelle? Michelle: It's not that we're doing it bad. We just have to indentify our ideal clientele, and make sure I provide a clear message on how I train and what people can expect from me. By doing that, the people who approach working with me have changed. I think I just got better at talking to people about reaching their goals, while also including maybe some other factors with that. Zac, I think you do probably one of the best jobs at that; talking to people who want performance gains but also addressing any nagging aches and pains. Being clear that training or lifting weights doesn't have to hurt. The mainstream fitness industry doesn't seem to think that way. Tim: I think, you know, I think it's really interesting because when I think when Zac and I first got into the field of physical therapy, what, six, seven years ago, there was still a pretty big bifurcation between strength coaches and therapists, there weren't a lot of therapists that were strength coaches or word trainers. I mean, one doesn't even come to mind. It's positive to see both of these fields merging together, and starting to view training and rehab as the same thing, just different points on the same exact continuum. We are less in silos. We don't worry about waiting until table tests are perfect before training, yet we also don't let people go back squat until their eyes bleed. I think everybody has a much better appreciation of what loaded activities might do to a person's range of motion, as well as what ranges a person might need in order to do the activities they want. Francis: We see a lot of people who had a coach or doctor say they can't do an activity. We rephrase that by saying we can help you get there. We may need to shelve it now and work on a few other things first, then go from there. Seeing the look of relief of rewarding. We are either here to help people enjoy their life better or perform better depending on what exactly they're after. For us at elevate, it's all about physical freedom, and not telling people no, but telling them Yes. Zac: if you can keep that end goal in mind and relate activities to that goal, then it's more likely that that person is going to be up to doing things that maybe aren't as sexy, like being on your back and doing breathing exercises, or not back squatting. Francis: Or just training more. I f we get you out of pain, your likelihood of training more goes through the roof, and then your likelihood of success of success goes through the roof. Zac: You can't hit volume and mechanical tension if you can't train. Michelle: Yeah, that's, that's a difficult one. If people aren't coming to see me, you know, they're probably not training. So, getting in people in the gym for training sessions, multiple times a week can be a big challenge with a lot of general population clients. I'll just talk about myself. if I go to a physical therapist, I have a certain expectation of what that session is going to be like, versus coming to see your strength conditioning coach, I personally get a lot of people who really hard workouts. There are different expectations in those realms. Zac: Francis does a really good job with classes and custom training of marrying those two things where you can give someone a really good training effect, while still helping them favorably movement-wise. Francis: Yeah, just if you communicate with them and check to make sure they're feeling the right things, you can make all this stuff incredibly taxing and difficult in the moment for sure. They might scoff at you because they're moving less weight than what they're used to, but wait to see how they feel with it. Conversely, if they come in and they're strong. Don't be so set in your ways that you don't give them heavier weight. But that's always our job's challenge; getting people to do the right things but be happy with what they're doing. You just have to be on top of it and have conversations with your clients. Explain the “why.” Though it can be hard in classes or small group sessions. The harder it can be explaining what's going on. If it's someone new, you might have to give him a call or text after the session. Finishers and conditioning sets at the end are always a good way to get them. A couple minutes on the assault bike does wonders. Michelle: I think that's a huge point. Clients remember what you sent them home with. Francis: It helps them walk out of your session with them feeling like they achieved something. Tim: It seems like the programming keys then include: Squats Unilateral activities Alternating activities Slower tempos The stack Are there any other major keys? Zac:  Ideally, with all of the tenants that Tim outlined so eloquently, you should be doing some type of breathing during specific components. Generally, that'll involve inhaling during the eccentric, and exhaling during the concentric. But you have to look at what you are specifically trying to make eccentric? What are you trying to make concentric? Suppose I'm doing a lat pulldown. Generally, we would exhale on the pull and inhale on the way up. Well, what if my predominant limitation is actually expansion on the opposite side? Well, I could totally inhale as I pull down to open that up. But for the overwhelming majority of people, that could be a little bit too into the weeds. I probably program that more with coaches than general population. For them, it's stack, full breath excursions during iso holds, then inhale on the eccentric, exhale on the concentric. But, Michelle, I'd be curious to hear how you're incorporating phases of respiration into some of the training stuff that that you're talking about? Michelle: You hit it on the head. I'm just making sure that people are going through phases of respiration that mimic their phases of movement. So, it's the eccentric concept that you just mentioned, and then have been messing around with a lot of inhaling the top position, holding my breath down, exhaling up, just kind of getting more into that and getting my clients used to it. So, adding more and more as I go and progressing with that stuff over time. Zac: How about yourself, Tim? Tim: I think that's a really interesting idea, Michelle. I so I guess the notion there would be that you're trying to create a bunch of expansion before you go into the range of motion that you're trying to load? Michelle: Yeah, I'll have to give my coach Eric credit for that. We do a lot of oscillating isometrics—dropping an object and going to the bottom catching it. And a lot of is inhaling on the top, holding my breath down, and then exhaling up and pausing at the bottom. So, I think it's finishing that yielding strategy. So, I'll definitely give him credit for introducing me to that. Tim: With my own training, I focus on getting full respiratory excursion through a range of motion. It seems most folks are just bracing and then like getting a little bit of airflow in whatever area we tend to be more hyper mobile at. So, slowing things down, which again, that tempo helps with and actually. Also focusing on global ribcage expansion with whatever you are doing. Zac: I think another thing that's vastly underutilized if you need to get extra volume, is machines and blood flow restriction training. Both are awesome ways to incorporate volume, especially if you get someone who has a low movement menu to choose from. This is especially true if you have someone post-op or morbidly obese. So, Tim, how are we going to get you huge? Tim: I think personally the passion lies in moving very quickly up mountains. So probably we're looking to keep me tiny yet powerful so that I can charge you up some tall stuff and hopefully not perish. Zac: That's reasonable. Well, that makes sense since you said that my 13,000-foot climb was nothing! Tim: And not to talk shit on your 13,000-foot climb. I think it's so complex man. Zac: Yeah, you totally talk shit. That's fine. Ask Francis, I'm probably one of the biggest shit talkers out there. Tim: Selfishly, I'm just trying to get you out to Colorado. Deciding on body composition goals Zac: When do you decide that you need to get bigger and when do you decide that you need to get leaner? I talked with my nutrition coach Georgie Fear. If you're not following her, you should, she's really intelligent. We got myself to a point where I'm fairly lean. And it's like, where do I go from here? And she had a really good point of does your body do all the things that you want it to do? Tim, in your case, if you're trying to climb mountains, do you need to put on more or less muscle mass to be able to do that and then just let the ascetics do what they need to do? I'd be curious to hear everyone's thoughts. Francis:  If I go back to running, I'll wonder how I'll feel about things body-wise. Michelle: Aesthetics really isn't my goal. It's more of how I feel and how I perform. I think it's just kind of what you're used to. You get used to certain body image looking at yourself. Since my frame is small, missing 11 pounds is a very noticeable difference. But I think that was because of my reduced fitness that happened over quarantine. I needed to get back on a training regimen. Surprisingly, I was still capable of moving a lot of weight. I think I just needed to build consistency. My bodyweight is back down to undergrad size, but I'm still capable of moving weight. But now, I can recover a lot faster compared to when I prioritized the barbell. Sum up Performance and health can be pursued simultaneously if you use volume, tension, and good exercise selection Intensity can help muscle-bound folks move better Pursue many expansive-based exercises to offset compressive-based exercises Emphasize stacking, single arms reaches, and more to preserve movement.

Scott and Michelle offer these practices to keep in mind at any stage of a health journey. Mindfulness. Take just a few moments to be present and distraction-free. Don't overcomplicate the journey. Overthinking and overcontrolling quickly lead to anxiety and depression. Taking small, practical steps will get you where you need to be. Share your journey with others, but not everybody. Close friends can keep you accountable and motivated. But your journey is intimate and won't always be pretty.  Have the right reason. There is something intrinsically motivating you to live a better life. Don't confuse that with the urge to suddenly identify as a health nut. Living in the past isn't productive. Your body changes, and your lifestyle changes. What worked then might not work now. Take this into account when evaluating what exercise is right for you and what you expect your body to do and look like. Limit social media. It's a time suck. Sleep well and take time to relax. The hours between 11-3 AM are our best opportunity for quality sleep. Don't skip it. Let go of toxic relationships. You can't easily avoid people, but you can let certain people in closer while others remain at a distance. Setting personal boundaries with even your loved ones will lead to healthier relationships. TranscriptMichelle: Welcome to the Totality Living Well podcast where we probe into the nitty-gritty aspects of health: the good, the offbeat, and even the controversial things that aren't always discussed. Whether you've had a long-standing curiosity or simply want to know more about a topic, we're here to explore the solutions and answers to empower you in body, mindset, and spirit.Scott: Hey guys, Scott and Michelle Williams here. Healthy living consultants, certified in nutrition fitness and neuromuscular massage.Michelle: We're parents, business owners, and understand the challenges that life can bring with keeping the elements of your own health on track while ensuring that the kids, parents, pets, and loved ones in your life are also taken care of with the resources they need for health and longevity.Scott: We're so glad you joined us.Michelle: Seeking to live a life of health for many entails acknowledging a specific need, setting a goal for improvement, and then implementing the necessary steps to reach that goal. But that's not always as easy as it sounds is it, especially when it comes to all of the factors pertaining to real life. If it were that simple, then the health and wellness industry wouldn't be as big as it is. Welcome everyone to our podcast today. I am Michelle Williams, along with my fabulous husband Scott Williams from Totality Living Well. And today we're going to be addressing the one issue that can trip us up as we aspire to reach any health goal, or really any goal. And that is energy drains.Scott: That's right. The topic needs to be discussed because as health professionals, we've seen so many people out there that really and truly want to make a change. And they come to us and they're so excited about doing that. And so many things start to get in their way, and they just don't understand why they cannot get to that point.Michelle: So, the last time we left you with some tips on how to really get cruising on your health journey. And why don't you recap those for us?Scott: Practicing mindfulness in your life is such an important mindset on this. It's not just about your body, it's about your body, mind, and your spirit. Self-care is vital for us: to take care of others, we've really truly got to be able to take care of ourselves to begin with. And don't overcomplicate the journey. The journey can be simple, you just have to get moving, you don't need to assess every single thing that you see in a magazine or everything everybody else is doing.Michelle: And that leads to this valuable insight that we want to share is how to reach those goals without the distractions and those things that can deplete our journey. So, we've got a long list of sneaky little traps that can be avoided, if we know what they are. And we're just going to share those with you and just go ahead and dig in.Scott: Sounds good.Michelle: Okay, so the first one, I think it just goes in right with that third tip of don't overcomplicate the journey, and that's overthinking the journey. I guess just any client we've really worked with who gets kind of caught up in—you know, I'm guilty of doing this myself: individuals who really want to control the journey ahead, and one way to kind of think that they can do that is by overthinking. And ultimately, when I started thinking about this, I started thinking about overthinking really kind of has a couple of different underlying reasons. One is maybe a lack of organization. Two would be a lack of confidence or having self-doubt about the journey ahead, and then not fully having a defined goal or being fully committed to that goal. And then when I started thinking about that a little bit more I thought about overthinking maybe is actually something that stems from worry or desperation to really want to accomplish that goal. So, it's not really something that's counterproductive for us, and when you think about it, it's more of a mind issue. So, that effort to control the whole journey ahead by overthinking is really the one thing that makes you lose control, and it just totally self-sabotage is the entire thing. So, basically, just keep it simple.Scott: Right, exactly. Because people do come in with great goals. And I think that what they're looking for is they're looking for validation in that goal; they want you to validate what they're trying to achieve. Sometimes it might not be their actual goal, but they think, “Oh, but this is going to make me healthy and/or this is going to make my professional that I'm working with think that I'm on the right track.”Michelle: Like, I'm truly invested in that.Scott: Exactly. And sometimes you have to take a step back and figure out realistically, it's like, how do you look at the baby steps of this goal and come back to kindergarten as opposed to running as a senior. And really, and truly taking the steps to go level by level to achieve those goals.Michelle: I think one of the things that goes along with it, and it's not really part of the notes that we had kind of things that we wanted to discuss today, but also overtalking about something; just talking incessantly about, “I'm going to be a vegetarian,” “I'm a vegetarian,” “Oh, my new vegetarian diet.” I mean, just for example.Scott: Oh, yeah.Michelle: And then just that constant talk, talk, talk, it's almost like there's a way to have that proper accountability, but there's also a way that people try to convince themselves and they're not really realizing that they're convincing themselves. So, I think that overtalking goes right in hand-in-hand with overthinking.Scott: I think so too, and I think what happens is, people need to keep that to one or two people that can actually really help them kind of just grab forward and go with that, but not talk to everybody about it. Because everybody just gets tired of hearing it because all they want to see is, “Okay, you're doing that. So, what's the result? What's this look like?” You know, they look at you and go, “Well, you're a vegetarian, or you've done this, or you've done that. What was your goal truly about? And are you really achieving it, or do you look the same as you did a month ago when I saw you?”Michelle: I think one of the things, too, is like, if someone establishes a goal and it's not for the right reasons to accomplish something, but rather to make it an identity, that's when you see a lot of that happen. People are kind of wanting to establish something to be known for.Scott: Right, exactly. Because everybody wants to be popular in the public. Everybody wants to be known for something. And sometimes that is lack of what they had as a kid as far as the compliments from people as a child, and they're still trying to feed that back into their lives.Michelle: Yeah. And when we do start working with clients for their health journey, we really do assess where they are in that whole goal-setting place in life because there are different phases: there's that pre-contemplation, and then there's the contemplation, all the way up to action. And so when someone's finally in that action phase, they're still not overthinking. So, I think that that's probably a kind of a good sign of not being fully ready to move forward.Scott: It is truly. And that helps them really assess because sometimes they think they come in, and they're like, “Yep, here's the money, let's go.” And they think by hiring you, or by having someone holding you accountable, it's going to just flip a switch, and all of a sudden—and their goals are going to just happen magically. And really, and truly, we got to step back and see why.Michelle: Another big energy drainer that I see with people who do overthink is living in the past. And I know that you can speak to this just the same, where we meet with people—and let's just say middle-agers, okay. Let's just say somebody who had a great football career when they were teenagers, and they ate the house down, and they can't understand what the age of 45 they're gaining all this weight. They never had that problem before. Well, are you moving the way that you moved when you were a teenager, you know, to warrant eating that? Another thing would be from ladies, I hear, “Well, I know exactly what to do. I'm just here for the accountability, and what I've done has worked in the past.” And I kind of laugh to myself, “Well, if it worked in the past, why are we here?” Because if you lost that weight before you had children, and you were in your 20s, and you knew what to do, and you were radically going for it, and then, later on, you have children, and you haven't lost that baby weight and it's been 15 years, since you've lost that baby weight, what worked then, chances are it's not going to work now. And so we have to always be mindful and reminding ourselves and other people that what has always worked doesn't always work. I know personally, there are times in my life, I guess, I found myself wanting to detoxify from childhood, processed meats and things like that, where going vegetarian was a great thing for me. Ultimately, going vegan was nice for a little while. And I had my children and Mama wanted some meat, and so that meat-eating diet kind of came back and it was right for me at that time. And as a nutrition specialist coaching other people, one thing that we can say is that there's not a one size fits all approach to diet and to exercise, movement, that kind of thing. And you think about it: babies have a totally different requirement, from a nutrition standpoint than a toddler. A toddler's got a totally different need than a teenage boy playing football. That teenage boy playing football has a totally different dietary need than someone who's going to be hitting the big three-oh for their milestone birthday. And that person is still going to be different from what a senior needs. So, we all need different things at different times. And living in the past, it's a comfort to say, “I've been there, I've accomplished, I knew it worked,” but the mind needs new things, the body needs new approaches based on what our resources are, what our routines are, what the current body is, what we have and that kind of thing. I know, you've seen that too.Scott: Exactly. When I was in my teens I worked out, I played sports. When I got into my 20s, I started mountain biking. At that point in time, you go to mountain bike ride and burning and 3500 calories a day. And I could eat like a house, and realistically, it wasn't a big thing. Then I rolled into my 30s, kind of got away from that kind of conditioning, went back into the gym and started a little bit more about building muscle, and then I had to retain correct nutrition, and not just caloric density, to actually rebuild the body that I wanted to. And then in my 40s I started looking ahead, and all of a sudden, all the active things that I did, my joints weren't exactly wanting to do it as much anymore, and then you should have a shift of metabolism. And you have to realistically figure out what is your goal right now because what you're doing in your 40s is not what you were doing in your 20s. You have to have that reality check; you're not going to have what you had in your 20s, but how do you make your best 40s?Michelle: Right, and a 50-year-old cannot look like their 20-year-old self. It's just, it doesn't matter how many times they go to have their hair done, or go under the knife, or have all these aesthetic treatments, it's a different body, and it is about embracing what you have to work with, in the current moment.Scott: Exactly.Michelle: So, I guess I would just say, to remember that today's a new day; yesterday's the past and just don't go back. Just leave it in the past.Scott: Leave it in the past.Michelle: Yeah, set your new goals for the day ahead.Scott: Right, and just make sure that you're—just find that mindset that you're good with that. And I think that's what people stumble with is you've got to look at yourself and go, hey, I am great where I am, and I can be the best 40-year-old, 50-year-old, 60-year-old that I can be out there, versus some of the people you see out there that are in your same age range. One of the big things that we talk a little bit about as far as time and things that take away from, I want to talk a little bit about social media. Everybody wants to get on social media; social media, it's just such a trap out there. And realistically, you spend 10 minutes here, you spend 20 minutes, there, you spend 30 minutes there, and all of a sudden you say, “Well, I just don't have time to go to the gym anymore,” or, “I don't have time to eat right,” or, “I don't have time to sit and read and meditate a little bit.” If you look at some of those trackers out there, you can actually really tell what you're doing with each thing that you have on your phone, you can see how much time you're wasting.Michelle: It's crazy. I mean it, it becomes addictive.Scott: It does.Michelle: I mean, not only to the kids but adults too. I can log in not even realizing that I'm logging in to check my feed. I don't even think that I'm doing it; I'm doing it subconsciously. And I can look down and think that maybe 5 or 10 minutes has gone by, and it's been an hour plus.Scott: Right.Michelle: And I just read feeds. Boy, I could have really read a good chapter in a book. [laugh].Scott: Yeah, getting caught up. Or I could have actually got up and went for a walk, and then got some sunshine.Michelle: Yeah, no kidding. I agree; social media is a huge energy trap. And I think just checking email also, it can be a big distraction, too.Scott: Yeah, because we have so much junk email out there. If everything could filter out all of the junk, and you could truly just get the true emails you need each day, that would be great.Michelle: Yeah, I think it's the same thing. I think just setting designated times and timelines for looking at those kinds of things is a huge help.Scott: Yeah. And then beyond that, it's just like, we spend so much time doing some of that stuff, we stay up too late. We stay up too late on social media, we stay up too late in emails, we stay up too late watching TV, some people stay up too late playing video games. And when you stay up too late, you throw off your entire next day.Michelle: Well, especially when it's time and again. Because okay, yes, there's going to be the big ball game that comes on, and that's going to run late into the night, and we want to see that; we don't want to record that; we don't want to watch what's more fun to watch live. I mean, certain things need to take place in real-time.Scott: Oh, exactly.Michelle: And kids might have sports. And a lot of those times we know from when our kids were in cross country. We didn't get home until 10 o'clock at night, sometimes. It was a school night.Scott: It was crazy.Michelle: It was. So, I mean there are times when we have to kind of make the exception, but I do think it builds up, like what you're saying. And then that really wears the body down and the mind down.Scott: It really does because you actually then to start the next day, you want to eat everything that you can because your body is deprived of what it needed for rest. So, now it's going to try to replace it with calories.Michelle: Yeah, it messes up that leptin and ghrelin hormone balance of when you are hungry and how full you are, and those just get really whacked out when you don't get that sleep. And then too, I have learned from multiple sources time and again at different seminars and from various educators, that the time period that you can sleep between 11 p.m. and 3 a.m. are valid for regenerating the body, resetting the body. So, yes, you can go to bed a little later than what you want to be, if you can stay asleep and get good quality sleep in that little window of time, you're at least doing yourself a favor.Scott: Definitely. But four hours sleep isn't quite enough for the night.Michelle: Yeah, not for the norm. I mean, there are some rare individual, I guess, that can get by with that, but that's certainly not me.Scott: Me either. [laugh].Michelle: And we have taken a couple of supplements before that have helped us. Obviously, we recommend everybody check with their health care provider and professional before doing anything, but we've had great experience with melatonin and [00:15:58 methionine], which is an amino acid, just bringing calm to the body, helping it turn off. Soaking in a hot bath with lavender and Epsom salt.Scott: Yeah, a lot of relaxation type things before bed.Michelle: And turning lights out. Turning lights and electronics out and just, you know, unplugging.Scott: Right. Easy, soft music, something just that relaxes you down.Michelle: Right. And you were saying that it does throw off the way we eat. So, that brings us to our fifth energy drainer. And that is living on a poor diet. I mean, you think about it, you're tired, you're running late for work, you haven't prepared anything for lunch, or even breakfast and you're going by the drive-through. First thing you're going to do is grab that fast sandwich, that biscuit, whatever, and that's not really giving you quality nutrition. So, over time, your body's getting dead food; it's getting processed food, and it can't regenerate by its divine design. It's one thing to grab that one meal on a quick whim, but to make that your lifestyle, that starts to add up, and that starts to make you feel pretty lousy. And when I teach kids, one of the slides that I have is garbage in, garbage out. So, what you take in, that's what you're going to be putting back out. And a lot of times, that's really lousy energy—Scott: It truly is.Michelle: —you know, and irritability, and not being able to be on your game. So, I even use that with the chefs that I teach at the college for the Culinary Institute. They want to know, why is healthy food, all that important? And I'm like, let's just rewind down to the basics: it's an energy drainer. You don't feel good, and you're not living that quality life.Scott: Yeah, exactly. It's one of those things that, if you were around from different decades, as we were, and if you can realize the fact that why can they still sell a hamburger for the same price they did when we were kids.Michelle: Or the ice cream sandwich that never melts on the sidewalk. [laugh].Scott: [laugh].Michelle: That's really weird.Scott: And we watched the kids get fast food type things around here that you look in a cup and it's still there the next day, and you're like, why is that still in a full form?Michelle: Yeah, that's really freaky. You know that Twinkie test, I've never taken the Twinkie test but apparently, they don't rot at all, they're so loaded. [laugh]. I remember eating Twinkies when I was a little girl. I was given one to—my mom gave it to appease me before breakfast, so I wonder if those Twinkies are still with me? Well, basically getting good fresh enzymes, and that means the colors of the rainbow that are grown in nature your red, orange, yellow, green, blue, fruits, vegetables and get those in when you can even if you do have to merge that with foods that aren't ideal, and they're more of the grab-and-go if you can grab that salad or even a juice, that's better for you, getting those life enzymes.Scott: Definitely. Exactly. When we go into another step of life as far as things that actually drain us as well, and we started looking at relationships. Being out there, and toxic relationships, and negative people, and—Michelle: No, not in this day and age. [laugh].Scott: And just the negative side of everything. You look at—if you turn on the news, everybody's hating on everybody. And it's like, when did we start becoming such a society of hate, and where did the love go? And so, the more that you can separate yourself from those types of things, the better that you do with life if you begin your day with more positivity.Michelle: There's this book that I have been reading, and it's pretty neat. It's called Your Body Believes Every Word You Say. And this lady was really ill, and she couldn't figure out how to get well. And then she started changing the way that she thought and the way that she spoke and her body responded, and it's a pretty cool story. I don't know who the author is, but it's a pretty good book. And it's true. It's like, the words that you are around and the words that you speak, they do either make or break you. And when you are around that negativity—and sometimes you can't help it. Sometimes you work with someone, and you see someone every day and they're just really a downer. But that's where you have to kind of dig deep and control the way you respond.Scott: Exactly. And when you get yourself together, the more you are in tune with your life and the more balanced you are, the more that you will start to attract. I was telling Michelle this, that when you do that, you're going to become a magnet. And people magnetize towards you that are people that love you, and people magnetize [00:20:29 who are do] people that hate you. And the responses are so different. You get people that love you, and realistically, you can't get away from them because they want more and more from you, and you get people that hate you, and they'll snub you, and walk away, or talk bad about you.Michelle: Yeah, you've kind of said, too, that when you start that positive journey in making strides for your health or trying to establish healthier habits in your lifestyle, you get people who kind of want to pull from you because they want a piece of that too. And you're a little bit stronger than they are, or you've got people who kind of… they're not so happy because it, maybe, makes them aware that they've got something that they should probably change, you know, they want to change. So, those are the people that kind of start hating on you. You know, you're going to get it both ways.Scott: And when we go places with Michelle, it's like, when she's in balance, and everything is feeling good—and that's the majority of the time, it's like, we get people that just magnetize towards her, in the stores that we go to, and they want interesting information, they want topics, they want tips. Just because we did some time on TV, they know us a little bit better. And it takes so much time out of our day sometimes, and I like to push it on through, but she magnetizes people that really and truly want part of what she has, or you see people that walk by us and kind of give us a look kind of like, “Eh, who are you?” So, it kind of feeds both ways.Michelle: Yeah. And I think having a positive attitude makes me want to engage with people as well. So—Scott: It does.Michelle: —there are those times that you tell me to just sit in the car while you run in and out. [laugh].Scott: That's right, I tell her, I say, “We only got 10 minutes, I'm going to go in here, I'm going to get this handled, and I'm going to go.” Okay because I like to say, “Hi, bye,” but I'm not wanting to overly engage because usually, I've got a time schedule to keep.Michelle: There you go. So, we've got another energy drainer. Why don't you tell us about this one?Scott: You know, this is about—Michelle: Saying yes to so much.Scott: That's right. And realistically, it's like, everybody wants to please people. So, when people want your time, when they want your volunteerism, when they want your help, we all want to say yes because we want to be a pleaser.Michelle: We want to be part of the solution.Scott: Right. We want to help people get through something. And it's so hard that realistically, you just have to stop sometime and say, “Okay. Can I really achieve this? Is this going to put me over the top? Do I really have time to do this?” And you have to say no, sometimes.Michelle: Yeah, you have to guard your time. And just remember that the opinions of others doesn't define you. And you remind me of that all the time because I want to say yes to people. I want to give. I want to help other people. But sometimes I don't reserve what I need to for my own self-growth.Scott: Exactly.Michelle: And I remember when I first started practicing it—I don't know if I'll ever master it, but I try—but I know the kids were little, and a parent asked for me to volunteer for something in a classroom, and it was the first time that I thought, “I'm going to practice saying no,” and it didn't really go over all that well. And I threw it back in her lap, I guess, and she was kind of offended, even though it was nice about it. And it's never easy. So, I think that's just an ongoing thing that I'm learning to practice. But it does; it pulls you in so many directions, and it can drain you of your energy.Scott: Oh, exactly because you'll get stressed out because you took on too much.Michelle: Yeah there are ways to say, “You know what, thank you so much for thinking of me, but I don't think that's going to work out right now.” You don't have to just do a hardcore, “No.” Or, “Heck no.” You can—Scott: Right.Michelle: —be, you know—Scott: Diplomatic.Michelle: Yeah, diplomatic. And it's very awkward at times, even being diplomatic.Scott: It is. Definitely.Michelle: I'd rather say no through text than I would face. [laugh]. So, you do. You have to guard your time. And I think that leads into our next energy drainer and that is not front-loading your day, with self-care in body, mindset, and spirit. Because we get so busy during the day and we can have all of these intentions and then they fall through and at the end of the day you think, “Well, what did I even get to do for myself?” And that can lead to resentment, more fatigue. You think, “I didn't even make any progress today.” But if we can start the beginning of the day doing some sort of self-care that—and I love to start with exercise. In an ideal world, I'd be up at 5 a.m. every day doing my gym time. Sometimes that's not very conducive, especially if I have an early morning commitment of some sort. But I do like to do that. That's one of the things that I feel like it sets those feel-good hormones, those endorphins in the right direction, and I'm able to think clearly through the day. And you, you start the day with reading, and meditating, and saying a prayer. And you're very consistent with that.Scott: But I have to be because I feel like if I don't get started off in the right boat, somewhere down the road, when the day gets overwhelming, I feel off, you know? I feel like my energy isn't there, my motivation isn't there, even just a little saddened sometimes. So, realistically, it's like, I need to take that time in the morning to start my day with who I'm going to be.Michelle: Yeah, I mean, I do think that there's a lot to that. It could be something just as simple as reading something inspirational, taking a moment to just be grateful for something, moving your body. You don't even have to go anywhere, just move for five minutes, stretch, anything like that. And then start the day with something healthy, start the day with a good hydration, something like that. It's pretty pivotal in the direction that it can take you. So, there you go; those are our energy drainers. And one of, I guess, the overlooked things that could be included in that morning routine would be making sure that you have your day planned out the night before.Scott: Yeah.Michelle: I don't know if that's an evening routine, or if that's a morning routine, but they kind of like, merge together.Scott: They do they really do because if for some reason you didn't get your clothes cleaned, you didn't prepare meals the night before, you don't have your water—I fill my water jug every night, almost every single time because I like cold water.Michelle: And I don't, and I don't like cold water. I don't fill my water jug and I end up drinking yours. [laugh].Scott: Exactly. That's what always happens, unfortunately. But those are some of the small things I put into place because I know if I do that, then the next day is going to at least start pretty well.Michelle: Yeah, exactly. So, I think that if we are mindful of these energy drainers, and we know, kind of, the impact that they can have on our lives, it just helps us to be better prepared, so that we can shift accordingly. And that doesn't say that we're going to live a life of perfection. But being mindful, that's huge.Scott: Yeah, and I think at least it helps you identify them maybe before they come, and how you're going to handle them.Michelle: Exactly. So, three tips that we want to leave our listeners with today—and we really do appreciate you listening to our insights on energy draining—that we want to leave you with: setting personal boundaries for yourself that you will and will not allow in your life. That's huge because that gives you kind of an automatic roadmap to follow.Scott: And I think one of the most important ones for me is scheduling time for yourself and holding those appointments. Don't let anybody get in your way. Don't let the kids, the dog, the cat, a client, anybody take your time because that time is valuable to your balance.Michelle: You don't have to say, “Oh, I'm getting my hair done,” or, “Oh, I'm going to take a nap,” or whatever that appointment time is with yourself, you can just say, “I'm sorry, I already have an appointment at that time.” It can be that simple. I think the third one we want to leave you with, too, is to have a saying, or an affirmation, or some sort of quote that can help you get back onto task if you feel yourself thrown off during the day. Sometimes all you need is a simple reminder to just help you refocus.Michelle: Elements of living a healthy lifestyle come in various forms. Sometimes we don't have all the answers we need, and sometimes we don't even know that we have a need until we have important discussions.Scott: That's the inspiration behind why and what we do with Totality Living Well and helping others live a life of true balance in body, mindset, and spirit.Michelle: We love hearing your comments, questions, and feedback as you navigate your own health journey. We're grateful that you've taken this time to join us. You can keep up with the latest on the podcast through Apple, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you choose to listen to podcasts.Scott: You can also follow us on Facebook or Instagram by following Totality Living Well.Michelle: And check out our website totalitylivingwell.com for other tips and customized health programs available.Scott: We'll see you next time.Michelle: Remember, keep your health front and center. It's priceless. In great health, always.

In this episode of Totality Living Well, Scott and Michelle introduce themselves and how they came to be health coaches in Knoxville, Tennessee.  Scott and Michelle began their health journeys early in life.  Scott remembers meeting Arnold Schwarzenegger and admiring his bodybuilding as much as his ballet training.  Michelle questioned everything as a kid. She wanted to figure out why her family members suffered from diabetes and heart conditions. She even questioned what lunch ladies were serving her in school, which led to some awkward conversations. Having lived in both Colorado and Tennessee, Scott and Michelle acknowledge the health gaps between Western and Southern America. The couple discuss how their love story intertwined with their health and business goals. Ebbs and flows are a part of everyone's lifestyle. When your healthy habits are right on track, Michelle says that's when real life will set you off balance. As an adult, parent, and businesswoman, she's been there and survived.  TranscriptMichelle: Welcome to the Totality Living Well podcast where we probe into the nitty-gritty aspects of health: the good, the offbeat, and even the controversial things that aren't always discussed. Whether you've had a long-standing curiosity or simply want to know more about a topic, we're here to explore the solutions and answers to empower you in body, mindset, and spirit.Scott: Hey guys, Scott and Michelle Williams here. Healthy living consultants, certified in nutrition fitness and neuromuscular massage.Michelle: We're parents, business owners, and understand the challenges that life can bring with keeping the elements of your own health on track while ensuring that the kids, parents, pets, and loved ones in your life are also taken care of with the resources they need for health and longevity.Scott: We're so glad you joined us.Michelle: Welcome listeners to the introductory Totality Living Well podcast. My name is Michelle Williams, and I am joined today by my husband Scott Williams. We are co-owners of Totality Living Well, a health and wellness company based out of Knoxville, Tennessee. And we are stepping into the podcast world to share our life experiences and expertise in health and wellness, and we are so honored that you have chosen to listen to our first episode.Scott: Thank you for joining us today. We're excited to talk a little bit about who we are and how we came about. Michelle and I met here in Knoxville about seven years ago, and we both were looking at, just, the community and basically what we felt was missing here. And basically just the concepts of health and wellness, and how people actually looked at this community and health and wellness, both coming from a different geographical area of the country. And we both looked here and said, “Wow, we could really do some great things here.”Michelle: Yeah, one of the things that we noticed, too, that the idea of health and wellness for a lot of people entailed getting a prescription filled, and then going to grab their salad at a fast-food restaurant, and maybe just doing a little bit of something here and there—mowing the yard for a little exercise. And we wanted to introduce people to a way of living that we had grown accustomed to, especially out in the West. We each came from Colorado, where it's pretty much a health mecca, but I guess we've always lived a life of health and wellness. So, Scott, why don't you just share with everybody how you got started?Scott: Yeah, when I was a young kid—I actually grew up in the Midwest, I mean Indiana, and up there was meat and potato country. They did three vegetables and boiled them to death and that was about it. But once I moved out to Colorado, I saw just a little bit more about how to treat your body, really. And then I got an opportunity. My father took me to an early contest of Arnold Schwarzenegger in Columbus, Ohio. So, I got to meet Arnold initially and was very inspired by him. But then also for people that are of our age range, I also got to meet a gentleman named Jack LaLanne. And Jack LaLanne was an icon of health wellness in the early 1900s, and he was just very inspiring. And the guy was probably in his 80s at that point in time, was strong as a house. And he just gave me advice, and he said, basically when it came to nutrition, he said he made it and he said if it came in packages, he didn't buy it. It was fruits and vegetables, if he wanted pasta, he made his own pasta, if he wanted bread, he made his own bread. He said, “You've got to stay away from the additives that are out there.” And he says that's the way for him on how he was able to keep himself in such a great condition of health and wellness. Which, you know, it went back for me as a young teenager, and I was so inspired by that. I was like, okay, right away, I went home, and it's like, I'm going to have better eating habits, I'm going to hit the gym, I'm going to exercise, I'm going to take care of myself, and just continue that the way that was, basically. And I just really got inspired by that. And I decided I wanted to help others as well.Michelle: So, Jack LaLanne asked you a question when he first met you, that actually was a life-changing question. And I ask that, a lot, of my first-time clients, too, and that question was, “How frequently do you poop, son?” [laughs].Scott: [laughs]. Exactly. And it's all about the fact is when Jack, his motto was when you ate, you should go to the bathroom. You should poop within 15 to 20 minutes after every time you eat. And, basically, if you're not doing that, then your system is not working properly.Michelle: Yeah and I think so many people, just when it comes to digestion like that, that's something that they don't really even address or think about the frequency. So, the way you eat and the way you move, all of that not only affects your digestion for the better but it also, it helps with cellular turnover and all of that. And that's just—it all fits together, and I think you saw that at an early age.Scott: Yeah, definitely. It changed my life in the way I was doing things, was before I was eating fast food, I was going out, I was doing stuff like that, and probably I didn't have very good bowel movements at that point in time. But once I got on a health train, but more vegetables in my life, and more fruits, and more things that—it made me feel so much better energetically. And it also made me just perform better as a kid. I could think better in school, I could perform better in sports. It just all around made me a better person in that way.Michelle: And then you got to meet Arnold again after you started walking that healthy lifestyle. So, tell us a little bit about that.Scott: Yeah, I mean, I got to meet Arnold a second time there. And Arnold was just such an inspiration because even though he was a bodybuilder, and everybody knew him for his muscle mass, he still was iconic because he was doing things that people didn't even think about. Arnold did ballet. And if you can believe the fact that a gentleman that size actually did ballet because, at that point in time, they didn't have any formal yoga, they didn't have a lot of formal stretching ideas. But he did ballet, which opened his body up, to be able to keep him injury free, to keep him flexible, and to be able to train harder and still care for his body in that way.Michelle: It's almost like a lot of those principles and that line of thinking is starting to come around and be more widely received, and even taught now, which is kind of cool because both of those guys were just so iconic and before their time. They just set the tone in the bar for health and wellness.Michelle: It's really cool that that all led to your next steps. And that's how you got started with your education.Scott: Yeah, so I guess basically, from that point on, I just knew that I wanted to help people. I dabbled in a couple different types of jobs, and things just weren't right for me. So, I basically knew that through personal training, through nutritional consulting, and then also 10 years, 15 years later, I went on and did neuromuscular massage work and trained in that because I started seeing the benefits of helping people that had injuries, helping people stay away from injuries, and helping people get through pain that they didn't even know they had, and how they could take that and get that out of their lives so that they actually could physically move because people would say, “I just can't exercise because my back hurts too bad.” “I can't exercise because I've got this bad neck.” But if you found a way to actually help people change that, that didn't take any effort, necessarily, for them, except for to lay on the table and actually get work done on them, and then to find out what the possibilities were. And then that always opened the door for me, too. People will say, “Well, how should I eat?” Or, “How many days a week, do you think I need to exercise?” So, basically, we could get them healthy on the table, we could change the mindset that they had. And then they start inching into interest in other realms of taking care of themselves.Michelle: And then at one point, you started helping people move, and you had this cool idea. Tell us a little bit about what you did.Scott: Yeah, so actually, um, when I was a young teenager, I decided that I was tired of the large gym scenes and all the hype about it—because all they wanted to do in the gyms were sell memberships, sell memberships, and then hope people didn't show up. Because if people didn't show up, they could keep selling memberships. If everybody showed up, they would be over-occupancy. So, I thought about it and I was talking to one of my clients at the time, and I said, “I got this great idea.” And she was a really sweet lady. She was an attorney, I think, in her probably late 50s. I had helped her—when she came to me she had a hard time lifting things. Her and her husband—I mean, her husband was like a big marathoner and she was having a hard time keeping up with him. And basically, I got her to the point where she was curling 25-pound dumbbells, and she was able to go on hikes with her husband at the end of the day and keep up with him. And so she was so excited that she wanted to help me in any way possible. So, I said, “Okay, this is my idea.” So, she said, “You know what? Come see my banker.” So, what I did in the early 90s, basically, was I started a mobile gym. So, I took a 35-foot school bus, renovated it, put equipment into it, stereo system, lights, everything you could do, and then I rolled around to businesses and homes, and I trained people in the Denver Metro area.Michelle: I love that story and I think just—I love your heart too. Of course, I'm married to you, but you've got a great heart. And then after you did that little journey with the bus, I like what you did with the bus.Scott: Well, so at that point time, when I decided to park the bus—the hard thing about the bus was the metro area was getting too busy, it was hard to get around, and truly, I needed a crew of buses. I needed five to be around different places at different locations for when people needed to be trained. So, I decided to park that situation and I got out of it, and actually got myself outdoors a little bit more. So, while I was sitting on this bus, I didn't know what to do, I thought I bought—I tried to sell it, nobody was really that interested in it. And then someone had called me up and they said, “Hey, we're really interested in your bus. We saw it.” That thing. And so basically, they came over to look at it and ended up being a family. And they were basically, like, living out of a tent. And they wanted to purchase the bus so they could actually live out of it.Michelle: I love it. And I love how your heart speaks through all of that. And I think that's part of the reason that we started working together, too. We met in Knoxville, Tennessee, after coming out here from Colorado, and you were trying to get your business up and running, and my professional background for so many years had been in marketing. And after we had become friends, I said, “Hey, let me just try pitching you to a couple of these TV stations and see what happens.” I said, “But the first thing that we need to do is, I want you to start with one word that we're going to base your whole media campaign on, your publicity.” And I said, “Take a few days, that's all you got to do.” And because this is an important word, and we need to really think carefully about that. And you said, “I don't have to think. I know my word.” I said, “What is that word?” You said, “Integrity.” I think I fell in love with you that day. [laughs]. I was like this guy really not only walks this walk, but he's got heart behind it. So, it was pretty easy to fall in love with you after that, and to start a business, and sharing our stories together and how they paralleled.Scott: You know, and I think that it was a great experience that we fell in love at that point in time. And by talking to you, I want you to tell them a little bit about your story and what drew you into health and wellness.Michelle: Okay, so I am 52. And so back in the '70s, we did not have internet, we did not have all of this immediate access to information. We had to go to the library and look things up or read the encyclopedias, and what you got from those encyclopedias, that was what you're going to get. And I was always interested in healthy eating just from a young age and noticed that a lot of my relatives kept coming down with the same types of illnesses, diabetes, gallbladder problems, heart disease, high cholesterol. Just, you name it and it was just kind of the norm. And I started thinking, “Why? Why does everybody get that when they get older?” And it was my maternal grandmother who came down with gallbladder disease. And I thought, “Well, how does that happen? What does the gallbladder do?” So, I was seven and started researching what the gallbladder did. And I learned that it metabolizes fats. And then I started looking at what we had in our foods in the way of fats, and then how we kind of started eating a lot of fats with just everything we did, a lot of processed foods. And by the time I was in fourth grade, I thought, “Well, what's it going to be like if I take 30 days, and go without sugar?” Just 30 days, no sugar at all. And then at the end of that 30 days, just binge on sugar, and go to McDonald's, and have a Sprite, and have a Big Mac, and an apple pie, or an ice cream, or anything like that. And my mom thought it was kind of funny. And so I started reading the labels. And that became not so funny to her because I was questioning everything. And then at school—I was in fourth grade—started asking the lunch ladies about what kind of sugar was in their food and nobody could tell me so I started boycotting school food. And it really wasn't funny when the principal called to meet with my mom because nobody else wanted to eat school lunch. And so that was that weird time period where everybody was like, “I want to be a movie star. I want to be a nurse, I want to be a teacher. I want to be—” anything but a nutritionist and I wanted to be a nutritionist. So, it was a fun thing for me and my grandfather. After he retired from the military, he had a huge garden in Tennessee—or in  Mississippi, rather. So, I would help him with that big garden and I learned a lot about organic gardening, which is still a big passion today with our garden, that you get to till for me every year.Scott: Of course I do.Michelle: You love me. [laughs].Scott: I do love you. That's the reason I do it.Michelle: But we do grow some superfoods. And so anyway, that was the beginning of that. And then fast forward to when I could go to college. And I did get a scholarship to a great school that had a great nutrition program. I was 17, and I chose communication of all things. But it was always a passion of mine and came back to it full circle. I now have all of the certifications in that. And I was really interested in youth nutrition when the boys were first born, and wanted to get them off to a good start. So, that was the first big interest and the first certification that I had to help them. And you and I started talking, and we realized that all generations needed good nutrition. And then I also had just my passion, hobby of running and exercising, and then I just fell in love with weight training after I met you. So, there's our story.Scott: And that's great. It's one of those things that you just evolve through life, and you really and truly grow, and you add more tools to the toolbox as you go along. And that's the nice thing about it, being a little bit more of a seasoned professional in this business is, the more people you touch and the more clients that you have, the more challenges you've seen, and the more things that you can teach them on how to apply those challenges. And all of us have challenges in life. Even today, we have our own challenges. But you have to find and look at what types of things will actually help you. And there's a lot of professionals out there, and they'll say, “You just follow my checklist. You do this, this, and this. You do it this way and you're going to have the perfect body, you're going to have the perfect life, you're going to have the perfect kids, you're going to have the perfect job.” But realistically, that doesn't work that way. Nobody out there has that perfection, and that might have worked for one individual, but that doesn't work for other people, and so you just cannot follow a standard out there. And so those are some of the things that we want to help dive into.Michelle: Yeah. And we really do take a comprehensive approach to health and wellness. And it's more than just your body which, that's a lot of what brought us into our health journey was just the interest in how movement, and nutrition, and flexibility, and all of that adds together. But then there's so much more to health. And the component of your mindset, and what you tell yourself, and the way you think, and then also your spirit. And that's what differentiates us from animals, and I think a lot of times that's overlooked with people looking at a comprehensive health and wellness program. So, when we started Totality, we said that it's going to be Totality Living Well, in body, mindset, and spirit. So, in this podcast that we are about to pursue, we're excited to just delve into all kinds of topics that maybe aren't always first and foremost in the media, or social media, or in the articles. And we're going to look at some things that can be practical in helping people move along. And I know that as a certified youth nutrition specialist, there have been many, many days with our now grown—almost grown sons who are 18 and 16, where I was like, “Do I have to really feed them today? [laughs]. It's kind of a pain. I'm getting tired of this.” And so, as parents and as business owners, we understand the challenges, and we understand real life, and we're not going to try to act like we know it all because we don't, and we are looking forward to talking with experts in different areas of health and learning from them, but then also sharing what we have learned with our listeners, and with the goal of just empowering all of you in your health journey, so you can live a quality life.Scott: And truly, that's what it's about. It's really at the end of the day, when people talk about what they want to do, so many people say, “I'm going to work hard for 30 years, 40 years, and then when I retire, everything's going to be great.” Well, you know, it really depends on what you do when you take care of yourself along the way because you can't wait until you're 55, 60 years old to start taking care of yourself. Because you'll realize the fact that, “Oh, wow, this isn't what I remember.”Michelle: Yeah. And that's one of the first things that I tell my clients. Strap in because you're about to go into a ride of your life. As soon as you commit to really taking the reins on your health, real life is going to happen like never before. And that's going to be anything from financial issues, to relationship issues, to illness. I mean, it can be anything. So, it's about walking mindfully through all of the hurdles and the challenges. And so I'm really excited about some of the things that we've got in store.Scott: I am too. And we're going to look at it from both angles because Michelle works a lot with females; I work a lot with males. And just getting a feel for what both people struggle with throughout life, and their tug of war, I would say, between taking care of themselves and taking care of their family.Michelle: Yeah. And one of the things that we want to do with our podcast, each time that we have one, is to leave our listeners with three tips. And so we started brainstorming, what could we do in this introductory podcast for three tips?And the first one is to practice mindfulness in your life with your health, but always remembering that your health is not just about your body alone. It is the body, mindset, and spirit. And I think when you do take that comprehensive view of your health, it really opens your eyes to what you can be doing for yourself.Scott: And our second step is really about self-care. It's vital. In order to take care of others, you got to take care of yourself first because if you put yourself on the back burner all the time, between your kids, your job, your husband, anything, you're going to wear yourself down. And when you wear yourself down, you're not good for anybody else.Michelle: Yeah. And then the third one, too, it's just, don't overcomplicate the journey. And I think that that comes when we do listen to so many plans that have been pre-mapped out for us. It's just like, “I've got to execute this perfectly, or it's a wash.” And it's about ebbing and flowing, and simplifying it, and just focusing on a couple of things. So, I'm very excited about some of the things that we're going to be introducing to our listeners.And we just want to thank you so much for taking the time to learn who we are and what we stand for. And we invite you to tune into our next podcast where we're going to be expanding upon the three tips that we just mentioned, and give you some valuable insights that we've discovered as health professionals in walking our lives of health.Michelle: Elements of living a healthy lifestyle come in various forms. Sometimes we don't have all the answers we need, and sometimes we don't even know that we have a need until we have important discussions.Scott: That's the inspiration behind why and what we do with Totality Living Well and helping others live a life of true balance in body, mindset, and spirit.Michelle: We love hearing your comments, questions, and feedback as you navigate your own health journey. We're grateful that you've taken this time to join us. You can keep up with the latest on the podcast through Apple, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you choose to listen to podcasts.Scott: You can also follow us on Facebook or Instagram by following Totality Living Well.Michelle: And check out our website totalitylivingwell.com for other tips and customized health programs available.Scott: We'll see you next time.Michelle: Remember, keep your health front and center. It's priceless. In great health, always.

Michelle Box is the Chief Executive Officer at Boxxbury Marketing, where she trains entrepreneurs on marketing and business development. She is a columnist, a speaker and known as the Blonde Fixer! In this episode learn from Michelle: Leadership is not about age – it's about behaviour and opportunity Experience is a great learning opportunity – take every one! There is no conventional path to CEO You don't need all the answers as CEO Don't restrict your value (price) Dive into your teams goals and drive real results Watch what you write on Social Media – it's there for good!  Join our Leadership Hacker Tribe and connect with us: Twitter Instagram Facebook LinkedIn (Steve) LinkedIn (The Leadership Hacker) Music: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMA Learn more about Michelle's work: Michelle Boxx - The Blonde Fixer - Instagram Michelle Boxx – The Blonde Fixer - Twitter   ----more----     Full Transcript  Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker.  Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you. On the show today, we have Michelle Boxx also known as the “Blonde Fixer”; before we have the chance to speak to Michelle… It is The Leadership Hacker News. The Leadership Hacker News Steve Rush: Given the environment that we are in with a global pandemic, many people are coming to terms with the fact that we may need to become more isolated. The irony is no more stark when you look at statistics that lie behind loneliness and isolation. Some research completed by campaigntoendloneliness.com found that loneliness increases the likelihood of mortality by 26 percent and comparable to well-known risk factors such as obesity and has a similar influence a cigarette smoking. And their research also shows that loneliness increases the risk of high blood pressure. So how do we mitigate some of these factors and increase connectivity? Well, I look to research for those that are most isolated at this time and look to those on the International Space Station with NASA.  In an article, it caught my eye; written by Corey Stieg of CNBC Make it, where she was following up on a tweet by one of the International Space Station retirees. Peggy Whitson, retired astronaut, spent six hundred fifty five days in the International Space Station with NASA and shares her five top tips to mitigate isolation and confinement so that this time could be useful and productive. In Peggy's tweet, she refers to these tips as behaviours or EB standing for “Expeditionary Behaviours”. They can be applied to any situation involving working remotely as a group. So while we may not have a mission to space, the mission we may have would be just getting used to each other's company, new routines and having to create new routines, so here is Peggy's top tips.   She says communication is not just about using new mediums, but about being able to share information and feelings freely, that includes talking things through and admitting where there's a misstep or a mistake, as well as debriefing when something goes right. Good communicators are also effective listeners, which often means restating what somebody said to check in what has actually been said.   Leadership (and followership). Trust and responsibility are the hallmarks of good leadership and followership, according to NASA. Those in leadership positions should lead by example and provide the resources and solutions to tasks and goals. Team members can actively contribute to the leader's plan too.   Self-Care. NASA's definition of self-care is, “demonstrating your ability to be proactive and stay healthy”. If you get enough sleep, good hygiene, spending time on non-work activities it will make you happy. We should consider this as we are all been drawn to connecting through social media. If that is a good use of our time or not.   Team Care. Remember that we are all in this together. The best way to support your team is to be patient and respectful, according to NASA. Foster good friendships and relationships with your co-workers during this time offer help to others.   Group Living. The final expeditionary behavioural or EB is about building a group culture by take into account everyone's different opinions, cultures, perceptions, skills and personalities according to NASA. NASA say respecting roles, responsibilities and workloads will all create a harmonious group living.   But be thoughtful for those that haven't got the capacity to find others and pay attention and just notice those in our communities who may need that phone call or the letter we have yet to pen. That has been The Leadership Hacker News. If you have any news, insights or stories you would like to share with our listeners. Please contact us through our social media sites.   Start of Interview Steve Rush: Today's guest is Michelle Boxx, who is the Chief Executive Officer at Boxxbury Marketing, where she trains entrepreneurs on marketing and business development. She is a columnist and a speaker. It is the blonde fixer herself, its Michelle Boxx. Welcome to the show Michelle. Michelle Boxx: Thank you for having me. Steve Rush: So your journey to CEO is not a conventional one, is it? I was doing a little bit of prep after we spoke and met, and I found a couple of videos on YouTube. One in particular as a 15-year-old high school girl addressing a political rally, tell us a little bit about that? Michelle Boxx: Yeah, absolutely. I initially started out in policy and politics, and my very first campaign ever was when I was 12 years old, and then I went on to interning in a presidential race here in the states, and then from there, I was given this opportunity. They thought would be really great at this rally to hear from a student speaker, and so they asked me; and I had not given a speech publicly before and I said, yes. Not really knowing totally what I was signing up for and then I went on to speak at this event; ended up having five hundred people at it, which is quite a lot for your first speech at fifteen years old and went on and gave that speech. It was actually kind of the catalyst to my whole political policy career and everything I'm doing now as an entrepreneur.  Steve Rush: So having so many experiences at such a young age in what most people would call an adult world and adult life, what are some of the lessons that you have learned from that time in your life that you now use in your adult life and your leadership career? Michelle Boxx: Oh, I have gathered so much. You know, I learned a lot about through policy and politics. I learned a lot about communications, of course, but I also learned a lot about leadership. You know, speaking at that, that one. You know the video you found, which it is so funny that you found it. I have tried to take it down so many times, but I have lost access to the ago. And I've found through that, I ended up launching a website a few months later that was really a policy website geared at covering legislation here in the States and I recruited a whole bunch of my fellow high school friends to help me with it, and so we would literally read legislation, we would post content every day. And so the website got 10000 page views monthly just organically from us posting this information, and so that was really my introduction into marketing, into leading the team and everything that I do now as a CEO. Steve Rush: And it is a super experience because people get often confused with leadership, has something to do with the job title or a career or a salary, but actually, what you have demonstrated is leadership is about just behaviours and we can have leadership skills and behaviours at any age, right?  Michelle Boxx: It is so true. A lot of it is really just jumping in and saying, okay, you know what, I am going to do my best here and I am going to figure it out, I mean, so many of us in life do figure things out as we go along. And so it's better to not wait for that moment of coronation, if you will, and instead just jump in and say, okay, I'm going to do my best here. This is the result we are looking to achieve and nurture these people in the process. Steve Rush: It was an early start in politics. Did that turn into a full-blown career, what happened next? Michelle Boxx: Yeah, so, you know, obviously starting out at 15. You are still in high school, so I end up graduating early at 16 and continuing in politics, so I was working in political campaigns. I became a radio media political commentator, so I had a weekly radio segment and I was a columnist as well, so I was writing a lot of publications, and so I got to work in campaigns in Nashville. I did some work in D.C., Kansas City, where I grew up and so it was really an interesting time for me because I was pretty much doing it full time but it was a myriad of things and all different aspects of policy, politics and media. Steve Rush: Given that, you were so busy at such a young age. Any regrets, anything you might look back and think, we should done that differently? Michelle Boxx: No, actually, I am incredibly proud of everything that I accomplished and showing that initiative so young. I think that is something I am proud of, it really did lay the foundation of everything that I do now. And, you know, I still had my social time with friends. I still, you know, still a very normal in a lot of ways, but at the same time, just very driven, very clear about what I wanted and I felt really blessed every day to have that opportunity. I mean, how many high school students can say that people actually cared at all what they had to say that young? So it was just a really cool experience for me.  Steve Rush: And of course, the more experiences we have, whatever age they are, that lays down those foundations that we can draw back on later in life. After your career in politics, you then became a really successful real estate agent. Tell us about the transition and the journey. Michelle Boxx: Right, so it is such an unconventional path that I took, but you know, if you can put yourself in your shoes of a high school student who is getting quite a lot of attention at a very young age, there's definitely pressure associated with it. And I think when I turned 18, 19, I just realized that I needed to maybe take a step back. I think when you are 18 or 19; you don't totally know fully what you believe on the political policy realm just yet, a lot of it has been kind of spoon fed to you, if you will. And so I took a step back and, you know, especially nowadays, I think it was such a smart move because, you know, Google, obviously, and you know, all the other search engines, they chronicle you forever. As you said, you found that video from when I was 15, and though, you know, if I had continued on down that path, I may not agree with some of the positions or the stances or the things that I had taken, and so I chose to be pretty quiet for a little bit. I actually moved to a totally different city. I got my real estate license. I had had a subscription to Forbes since really, I was probably about 15 years old, I had always read about how so many CEOs, business executives, and successful entrepreneurs have a real estate background, and so I went ahead and I got my real estate license. And then it was an interesting experience getting your real estate license at city where, you know, no one. Because real estate is very much a networking and connections kind of industry, and so I had to build everything from the ground up and I had to figure out business really quickly. When I had only been on really the policy and political end, so from there year one I think I sold only like four houses, but year two, I sold 20, and so to have that intense amount of growth obviously is considered pretty good and the industry, especially for a city that you just moved to. So I got to speak at the National Association of Realtors Conference that year, and just to talk about everything that I had accomplished. It was really cool because it's just another experience of realizing there are a lot of grit and determination that you really can succeed in any field. Steve Rush: That is great, and what you have just described is a lot of internal drive and determination and focus. Of course, we all need that external lens. During that period of growth and development for you, how did you seek and find other ways to grow and become more effective in yourself and more effective as a leader too? Michelle Boxx: That is great. I read a lot about business models actually, so it was a lot of modelling and seeing what other successful agents and brokerages throughout the United States had done, and to completely make their model my own, of course, with a few tweaks. I think if anything, that is something that has really propelled my successes to my ability to think extremely conceptually and to look at everything and say, okay. How do I break this down into a system? How do I turn this into something where, you know, is implementable for me? What are the step by steps that need to happen? And then from there going on and actually just doing the implementation. Steve Rush: And all the great leaders I've worked with, coached, supported and worked with, they'll have this philosophy of lifelong learning, don't they? Where they are able to just copy and paste and take the best bits of all of the people they work with, make it their own, also still of course maintaining that authenticity and it seems to me Michelle that you have managed to create a unique view that is also authentic. Michelle Boxx: Thank you very much. Steve Rush: You are welcome. During that period of time, transitioning from politics into real estate, what was maybe the one thing that you learned the most? Michelle Boxx: I think the realization that you can't do everything alone, that you really do need support, so you need your mentors, you need your team, you need. I think that if you have a lot of internal drive, it is very natural to think, you know what, I can figure this out on my own. I can do all of this on my own. I am independent. It is fine, and then just really putting your ego to the side and saying, you know what? I don't have all the answers. Like you said, you know, copy and paste and really having the network around you to support you along your way up. Steve Rush: And since leaving the world of real estate behind. You know, run a firm where marketing and business development of pivotal to what you help other clients with. How did that transition come about? Michelle Boxx: Well, so the way I describe political campaigns or what people should know is throughout my time in real estate, I was in real estate full time for five years. And in addition to that, I was also running political campaigns, and so it's basically like having two full time jobs or some would say that political campaigns and end up itself is two full time job. And so with real estate, you learn a lot about marketing. Obviously, you learn a lot about sales and you learn a lot about modelling and business. But then on the flip side with political campaigns, I imagine it as a business where you basically have six months to get the entire brand off the ground, to get the entire business off the ground, and you have one day, which is election day, to make all of your sales. And if you don't make all those sales, you're out of business, and so it's an intense amount of pressure. And so I really channelled all of that, and to realizing all of those experiences made me really, really effective in business and I realized that so many small business owners are really great at what they got into business to do, but they're not so great many times at the actual business end. When it comes to sales, marketing, business development, pricing, you know, all of those things. And I realized with my experience I couldn't really help them. With real estate, I felt like I was looking more for a challenge. It started to be the same thing every single day and I needed to grow, and that has just been a hallmark of who I am. And so I went ahead and started my marketing firm and initially, it was just supposed to be marketing and it moved into Business Development as well as I realized the need of small business owners and we were generating revenue a week from starting.  Steve Rush: Well that is a massive achievement and so early into new business to be driving revenue, well done you. So you've become known as the Blonde Fixer and know if anybody ever met you Michelle or seeing you, they will know the blonde bit, but the fix a bit, not so much. So what is the most common things you often find yourself fixing for others, right now?  Michelle Boxx: Sure, so the fix or term in and of itself is actually a political term. A fixer basically handles crisis management for political campaigns or candidates and that kind of thing. But I also shifted over into making it about business as well, so a lot of times for a business…so we worked with about 100 hundred businesses in our first year, whether it was on a retainer basis or just one off consulting calls. And so a lot of times I would get on these calls and I would quickly realize we're not know anything about their costs and their pricing. And so many times I find that, you know, businesses are so focused on marketing and sales and getting the revenue in. That they don't check to make sure that they're properly structured, and if you're not properly structured in terms of your margins, then unfortunately, you're going to hit a cap eventually and if you don't have the margins built in. You are going to have a lot of difficulty in scaling your business long term, so a lot of times the very first thing we do is work on the pricing, so make sure they really have a real grasp of what their costs are. And then also a grasp of what their current production limit is, whether it's a product or service, how much they can literally do right now without hiring anybody else, and then from there, we go ahead and make sure those prices are correct. For example, one of my clients we ended up increasing her pricing extremely significantly, and she said, well, no one is going to buy it at this price, and I was like, just try and you will see. And so through that and then our marketing as well, she not only was able to raise her prices, which of course, increased her margins, but then she was able to actually get more sales and she was getting before, so that's basically what we do on a day to day basis. Steve Rush: It is really interesting, isn't. What might seem obvious for most people geting that kind of basic foundations, right for their business. People often get distracted when they are running their business; the main reason is for that?  Michelle Boxx: I think it is overwhelming for a lot of small business owners. You have so many tasks that have to be done, so many hats to wear and it is easy to let things fall to the wayside. I think that sales and marketing does seem obvious when you look at it from a big picture view. But on a micro view, many times they get focused in on the creativity or the production of the product or the service that they're creating, and everybody has different personality types as well.  So I think that's why so many small business owners I mean, we really look at how critical that is, though, because the majority of small business owners do fail within five years, which is one of the reasons I started the firm. I think a lot of it is easy to get distracted. It is easy to get overwhelmed, and it is easy to just keep procrastinating and pushing things to the side and hoping they will resolve themselves, but many times, they actually just get worse. Steve Rush: And I guess just like many start up business owners and indeed most business owners, they arrived at being in their own businesses because they were good at something they were passionate about or had some real desire, but of course, that is not enough? You need people around; you have the right skill sets, the right personalities that can offer you differing views and different behaviours. Right? Michelle Boxx: Absolutely, and also, just taking a look at, again, what your skill sets are, kind of what you just touched on. And realizing that if you want to be a person that is creative and just focus on the creative end which is what many like you said, many small business owners, that's what they start their businesses is, it is a passion project. That is okay, but you have to find a way to find the right people that will be on that other side for you, and we'll be doing the stuff that you may not want to do, and so that's a lot of where we come in. It is just filling that gap. Steve Rush: Right and I also wanted to explore with you the whole principle of pricing, because when anybody runs that business and me included, getting the value vs. fee, vs. right proposition is incredibly important, and I think that confidence plays apart in that, doesn't it, particularly if you're new into business? So how do you help people with their confidence about getting the right price for the right value? Michelle Boxx: I love this topic. I love telling the story about when my first real estate sales, where I was negotiating the commission for myself, so I was talking to a prospective seller and they asked me what my commission was. And I so desperately wanted this listing because I was just starting out, and I think that there is that feeling of desperation that a lot of small business owners find themselves in when making a sale. And instead dialling into that desperation, I chose self-regulation and I took a step back, took a deep breath and said, you know what, I'm going to charge even more than I think I can get. I am going to charge way more, actually, and so I just leaned into it and said, okay, you know what, I want my permission to be this amount, and it had been about 2 to 3 percent more than a lot of people in my firm were getting. And he said yes, and that was an incredible lesson for me to realize that so many of us do undervalue ourselves and so many of us, not only we don't see our own value, but we also don't realize that we are the determining factor of our value. We sell yourself short and so really being unapologetic and realizing what is the worst that can happen? You know what they say no, or they needed to negotiate. You can always renegotiate, and that is all it is but to sell yourself short is doing your business a disservice and doing you a disservice. And It feels good internally to be compensated well for your work, and I think it's incredibly important to just always say to yourself, okay, and how much more can I charge here? Just taking that beat, making that moment. How much can I charge? There has been times with that political consulting where I have literally doubled what I thought I could get. Just to see and make it a little bit of a game for yourself, just to see what people perceive your worth to be, and you will be amazed at how little resistance you get when you confidently say it. Steve Rush: And of course, we all have a different value that we place on people's services, times and expectations but often it's our own internal dialogue that either talks us into something or talks us out of something; and actually confidence can increase value because people feel assured, they feel certain about the services and the products that they're going to get from you, right? Michelle Boxx: Of course, there are clients for every price point that you want to charge. If you have a dream amount that you want to charge and you feel like you can justify that value, then there are people who out there who are willing to pay that. Your job is just to find them. That is really all it is. It is really all that marketing and sales is. Steve Rush: So Boxxbury Marketing now in a period of growth. So what is next for you and for Boxxbury? Michelle Boxx: So what we consistently found in year one was even though we worked with, you know, over 100 businesses, that many small business owners, of course don't have massive access to capital to pay intense monthly retainers over time. And then many of them also really needed a space to learn instead of just us doing the work for them, and so we have actually we're in the process of launching 60 different courses that cover our marketing, business development, sales, pricing, and just everything that you would need to know. So 60 different courses for 60 different industries, and we have also teamed up with other knowledge experts like business accountants and attorneys. So basically, these business owners will be able to purchase something that's specific to their industry to be able to build out this business model, and then from there, they'll be able to watch and have these courses permanently, and as we add to them, they'll get the new editions as well. So we're progressively hiring a sales team that is going to be to be selling these courses out and it's just really an exciting time for growth for our Boxxbury right now. Steve Rush: Well congratulations on continued growth as well Michelle. Michelle Boxx: Thank you. Steve Rush: For all our guest that come on, the show. We ask them to share that top Leadership Hack so we can look into your mind. What is your top Leadership Hack? Michelle Boxx: Absolutely, so one thing I would say is to facilitate feedback from your team. I found that it is so important to check our egos at the door and to simply not be afraid to get that feedback. You would be amazed at the wealth of knowledge that your team, whether it is your sales team or whoever else has, even if they have not been in executive positions. Many times, they can fill in that missing piece of the puzzle, so many of us as executive type's area lot in our heads. And it's really important to rely on your team to see where those puzzle pieces are, where they can say, okay, look, actually, maybe this isn't as clear as you thought it was, or maybe we should be doing this so we can all feel a little bit more unified. And so facilitating that feedback from them and making it a two way street has been really critical to me and my staff. The next would be empathy, compassion, and kindness, putting that all in as one. A good story about this is a sale member of mine on my team. She was recently experiencing trouble with rejection and I guess there had been a couple of people who had rejected her who were not very kind. And she got all the way to the point where she was ready to quit, and she never said anything to me, which is where that facilitating feedback that I already mentioned comes in but then the other thing was she had gotten so in her own head that she felt she wasn't cut out for the role. And so when she finally came to me and she told me that she was ready to quit, I just really instead dug in instead of accepting, you know, the instant quitting and then just tried to get in with her and where she was at, and so I empathize and provided solutions to her concerns. And she's been a numerous sales positions before, and she told me that she had never had a leader tell her before that they actually cared and to show that they actually cared. And it's startling how many people don't feel like their leaders and the executives truly care about them, so really diving in deep with that and taking that time to slow down and really get into where they're feeling and then we were able to find a creative solution for her. Where she is still able to sell for us, but in a way that she does not hear the rejection in such an intense fashion. So just really customizing that for your team and being empathetic, I think is so critical. The next would be investment in the individual. It kind of ties into that empathy aspect, but I really like to dive into my team's professional goals. You know, right now we have a really, really large sales team. Over 60 people and I dive into, you know, where do you see yourself going in life? You know, how does this job help you get there? Because I know that if they are happy and satisfied, they will stay longer, but I also know that if they really feel like a job is pushing them towards their best potential and really helping them elevate, then they're going to give the best result. Really just diving into them and investing in them as an individual's critical as well. Steve Rush: Super hacks, thanks, Michelle, for sharing those. What is really important is recognizing is from a leadership perspective the more that you give and get on the agenda of others, the more that you get in return from working together. So great stuff, this part of the show also, we are going to invite our guests to share what we call the hack to attack. So this is when a situation is going particularly wrong or not worked out well, and we now use it as a tool in our kitbag to lead and support and help others. What will be your hack to attack? Michelle Boxx: So this is quite the story. When I was about 17 years old, I would say. I tweeted something on Twitter and this was, of course, in my time in politics and policy. And I tweeted something without really thinking about it. I thought it was tongue in cheek, and apparently, people did not feel that way. We ended up getting screenshotted and put on an article that was seen by twenty thousand plus people and I received over a hundred hate messages, death threats, that kind of thing overnight, which is, of course, pretty alarming when you're 17 years older anytime, frankly. And what I learned from that experience. Is one to first simmer down before you react, it was a pretty alarming time, but then I just really learned the importance of our words, that our words really have power, and it sounds trite to say, but it's so critical in terms of leadership at in terms of leading our team. Words can sting for a really long time, and so for me, it was just that reminder that, you know, to always check how something might be perceived before we choose to say it. Steve Rush: Wow, it's a massive lesson to learn at such an early age, but one I suspect you use readily when you're coaching and counselling others, right? Michelle Boxx: Yeah, absolutely. Steve Rush: And of course, communication had changed now; where we could get away with saying it and people would hear things. They can unhear those things, maybe forget it. Whereas now with texts and social media, once we have written those words, they are there forever. Michelle Boxx: Right. It just it is like a nice big punch, unfortunately, to a lot of people if you don't say things that correct way. And I think that it's just a reminder as well that. You know, when we put things in text, our tone of voice and a lot of the other senses that we use to typically engage with the world as is absent. All you got is the visual, and so to really be mindful of how that is perceived. Steve Rush: And with social media, being so present in our lives, even more important now. To the final thing I'd like to explore with you today Michelle is, if we were able to do some time-travel, go back to meet that 15 year old Michelle, who was courageous, political activist, ready to take on the world, what advice would you be giving her now? Michelle Boxx: I think that Michelle at that time was incredibly driven, but also really afraid of not getting to places fast enough, not accomplishing the dreams fast enough, and so I would really advise Michelle at that time to do something called living and day tight compartments.  And it's a concept that Dale Carnegie wrote about in his book about Stopping Worrying, and it's really to leave the past in the past. To leave mistakes in the past, of course, learn our lessons, but just leave them in the past and then also to not worry about the future and where it's taking us instead to have your plan to focus every day, minute by minute, hour by hour, focusing in on the tasks that need to get done. And once you have that plan in place, not leave it any time to second guess or to overanalyse, just implement, implement, implement, and you'll get to where you want to go. Steve Rush: That is great advice. I can resonate with that, and of course, the more that we can focus on the now being present, more likely we be in control, rather the stuff that hasn't happened or stuff that's chasing us that really helps us be present in the moment and be more focused. Michelle Boxx: Absolutely, and I think that it is really easy to not even realize how much we worry and how unproductive that really is for ourselves, as unproductive for our mental wellbeing and done for our performance as well. And so if you really start to be conscious of how much you worry every day and how much you're analyse, overanalysing and just in general getting nervous, you'll start to realize there's a tremendous amount of time every day that you waste, and so alleviating that actually makes you the most. Steve Rush: So our listeners today, Michelle, may be thinking how to find out a little bit more about the work that you do. Now you've got a strong following on social media, so how would you like our folks listening today to connect with you? Michelle Boxx: I would love everyone to check me out on both Instagram and Twitter. It is at @blondefixer, and I typically try to post helpful articles and just helpful tips in general, just things that we are implementing within our firm for our clients. I try to give free advice every now and then as well, and if you have any feedback from this episode or have any other questions, I would love for you to reach out to me there. Steve Rush: So as folks have listened here, they can go to our show notes and click on those links direct to get to your social media pages. Michelle Box: Perfect.  Steve Rush: Finally just for me. I just wanted to say a massive thank you, Michelle, for being with us on the show. I know it has been a busy time for you at Boxxbury and I'm super grateful for you sharing your Leadership Hacks. Michelle Boxx, the Blonde Fixer. Thanks for being on The Leadership Hacker Podcast. Michelle Box: Thank you so much, Steve.   Closing Steve Rush: I genuinely want to say heartfelt thanks for taking time out of your day to listen in too. We do this in the service of helping others, and spreading the word of leadership. Without you listening in, there would be no show. So please subscribe now if you have not done so already. Share this podcast with your communities, network, and help us develop a community and a tribe of leadership hackers. Finally, if you would like me to work with your senior team, your leadership community, keynote an event, or you would like to sponsor an episode. Please connect with us, by our social media. And you can do that by following and liking our pages on Twitter and Facebook our handler their @leadershiphacker. Instagram you can find us there @the_leadership_hacker and at YouTube, we are just Leadership Hacker, so that is me signing off. I am Steve Rush and I have been the leadership hacker.    

Episode 53 with Michelle Donnelly Michelle Donnelly didn't walk into her marriage hoping that one day it would end with divorce, yet this is exactly where she found herself a few years ago. Through her healing journey, God began to unfold a vision to minister to other single moms. Michelle launched a ministry called Agape Moms and now ministers to women through blogging, podcasting, and with her newly published Bible Study called Seen. #mind #body #spirit #wholeness #balance #singlemom #agapemoms #seen #trauma #healing #pain #surrender #homeschooling #divorce #teaching #community Find Michelle Online: Facebook Agape Moms Ministry Seen by Michelle Donnelly Agape Moms Podcast Michelle Mentions: Favorite Book Wild at Heart by John Eldredge Favorite Hobbies Being Outside / Hiking Interesting Fact Michelle is a single mom who homeschools her kiddos. Inspiring words from Michelle: "It really takes two people  who are committed to following the Lord to make a marriage work"

Learn More About The Content Discussed...No Boss Talk:https://nobosstalk.comMichelle Cunningham Website:https://MichelleCunninghamOnline.comMichelle’s Instagram:@directsalesmichelleThe Camp Elevate Facebook Group:hereBeth’s Instagram:@bethholdengravesBeth’s website:https://www.bethholdengraves.comProfit HER Way Course:https://www.bethholdengraves.com/profitKeynotes discussed:She's earned a six figure income consistently and led a network marketing team to over eight figures in sales, hosting home parties and Facebook parties. (01:31)I'm tired of saying I'm shy. Yes, you're shy, but don't say that to yourself. Like shy is just another word for insecure.(07:21)Then all of a sudden introvert Michelle who went from being shy to being bold is like we've got a system and it's working. So how did that look?(10:52)All I learned is change your story, make it super inspirational and then at the end give them two options.(13:14)I want to talk about owning your awesome, and that when someone owns their story, and someone has confidence, and it takes time.(16:10)When Did It Air...January 06, 2020Episode Transcript...Beth:Welcome to ‘You’re Not the Boss of Me’. If you are determined to break glass ceilings and build it your way, this show is for you. I’m your host Beth Graves and I am obsessed with helping you to not just dream it, but make the plan, connect the dots and create what you crave. Are you ready? Let’s get started.Hello. Hello and welcome to episode number 19. And Happy New Year, If you're listening to this in real time. So today I am so excited because I have been stalking Michelle Cunningham. She is my guest and you are going to love her Own Your Awesome. And you will walk away, literally fired up like pulling your car over to the side of the road and getting started taking action after this podcast. So let me tell you a little bit about Michelle and then we'll bring her on. She teaches network marketers around the world to successfully build their business through Facebook parties, home parties, and using the power of video. So after you see this wonder woman on YouTube, you are going to see the power and the impact. She's called the queen of video branding for direct sellers and teaches you to Own Your Awesome to have a massive impact for success. She's been involved in the industry for 16 years. She's earned a six figure income consistently and led a network marketing team to over eight figures in sales, hosting home parties and Facebook parties. So she's playful. She's on YouTube. She's so much fun. She's made an impact with thousands and thousands and thousands of network marketers. And so here she is. Let's talk to Michelle Cunningham.So, Hey everyone. I am so excited because I have been stalking. She's my new best friend. She doesn't know it yet. I sent her like a half a heart necklace. Her name is Michelle Cunningham and I literally have been watching her for months and months and months, obsessing over her content, her energy, her YouTube channel. And so, you know, I asked for everything so I thought, I'm just going to ask Michelle, she's super famous if she would hop on this podcast to help us hear more about how she's built her business in direct sales and thousands of others with her quirky, honest, but deliberate presence on YouTube and on social media, and just being an awesome pink princess. So hello Michelle!Michelle:Hi. That was quite the introduction.Beth:Well you didn't know like I always like to admit that I'm stalking someone because it's just weird if you don't, right?Michelle:Yeah, well I stalk people too so I totally get it.Beth:I know I just, I study, I love to study success and so I know that we have some people that may not have been introduced to you yet and now they are. And I'm super excited because after meeting you and talking with you, and we're going to give you guys this offer at the end, is I'm going to do the YouTube thing this year, and I have like seriously dark videos that are sharing my sticky note challenge and you've inspired me. So can you give us a little bit of history? I know that for those of you that, you know I said it on the intro, but give us the real version. How did you get started? When did you start realizing that the video presence was really a thing to build the business? So give us the scoop. Who are you? What do you do? Yeah, all that jazz.MichelleAll right, well I'll give you the quick background because I feel like a background is really important. I grew up incredibly poor. My mom was a single mom so I came from very little. I had two brothers and myself and everything I've ever had for in life I've had to pay for on my own. And so I grew up always wanting to be like the kids who just had like Pantene shampoo and fresh apples. So just to put it in perspective, like where I live now and what my life is like is not what I grew up as. And so I'm very thankful for life, the journey. But I'm also, it's what drove me. It was realizing like, I don't want to have a moldy basement and like snakes in my basement and have a house, I'm embarrassed by. I want to have more and so...I went to college, paid my way through college, and then entered direct sales into my life. I got my first job as a pharmaceutical sales rep and then I landed at an event, and it was a direct sales event. My coworker's wife invited me and I'm there in this hotel room, the holiday Inn, and there's a lady in the room claiming to make six figures. Another one's a millionaire, another one's driving a free car. And I'm like, dude, this is either a fantastic opportunity or this is a scam. So I went home and I told my mom at 23 years old, and she goes, Oh yeah, honey, a hundred percent scam. Do not get involved. I was not doing it. And then a week later I remembered that I was 23 and at 23 you don't listen to your mom. So I signed up anyway. And that was 16 years ago, 17 years ago.And so when I joined, there was no text message. There was no Facebook. And so they said, how you're going to build your business, honey, 23 year old, you're going to go up to strangers in parking lots, and like, Oh, that's horrifying. People doing that. Like I'm an introvert, I don't like to bother you. I don't like to be in people's way. It's just who I am. I want everyone to like me. That's just my personality, right? So the idea of approaching a stranger and having them yell at me was like my worst nightmare. And so I, for the next six years, did not tell anyone. I was involved in network marketing like for six years. But in that six years I studied it. I looked up ideas, I ordered my full inventory, I was ready to go, but I did nothing for six years. I think I held like a party or two.Beth:Wait, wait, wait, wait. I gotta repeat that. You guys six years of studying. And so many people are like, Oh, I just, I mean I was that person, Michelle, that I bought every kit, signed up for a billion things and didn't study, didn't do a thing until, you know, when I launched the current business that I'm in. But I didn't know it was six years. What made you keep holding on?Michelle:Yeah, it's just a fantastic part of the story. And it always, when I'm sharing in front of an audience, they're like, you gave me hope. Because I've been, you know, 5 years, I haven't started. I'm like, Oh you're fine, you're actually ahead of me. So for six years I loved the dream of it, but I was too shy and too nervous to approach people, you know? And I was like, but I loved it. But I was like, but I can't. And so it was self talk, this negative self talk that I had, that I don't want to bother people. I don't want to, you know. And, in that six years I tried, it's not like I did nothing. It's like I'd study an idea and then I call my recruiter. I'm like, maybe let's do your mall thing. You said we could do a scavenger hunt.Then we'd go do the mall thing. And so we'd go up to people and I actually met a lady who said, Oh my gosh, your sell for that company? I would love to host a party with you. And I'm like, really? Okay. But I got home and I was too nervous to call her. Talk about, this is not going to work. And I called her the day before the party to confirm because I was nervous. But she was like, I never heard from you. What would make you think I am going to host a party with you? And I was like, you're right. Okay, bye. So little like mouse Michelle. One day I made a decision at 29 I was fed up enough with my corporate job and I think that's when you see someone make a big change where I was like, you know what, I'm tired of being a mouse.I'm tired of saying I'm shy. Yes, you're shy, but don't say that to yourself. Like shy is just another word for insecure. There's all of these things. I was telling myself they were not serving me and I thought, you know what? What makes me different from that girl over there that's wildly confident? She just acts confident. Why don't I just start doing that? Why don't I just like stop caring and let's just like do this? Because I just made that very conscious decision. And it was January, 2009 yeah, 2009, and I went online and I found someone that worked for the company that I had signed up with. She was not my recruiter, but they have a we'll help you no matter what thing. So she, when I met her, what was amazing about this lady is, she changed my life forever because when I met her, she's 4ft 11in, tiny. She wears short, spiky hair. She doesn't wear a ton of makeup. She's not loud. She's not bold. She's not crazy. She suffers from social anxiety disorder. She fainted at her first home party.Yes, And over three weeks. Yeah. You're like, that doesn't sound like a good mentor. But see, she earned over $3 million in her career and was driving the top level car. And I was like, Oh, okay, so you're a little broken. I'm a little broken. If you can do this, maybe I could do this. And so it was in meeting her, then I met someone that wasn't perfect. Sometimes you meet people in this industry and they're perfect and they talk perfect and they smile and perfect and you're like, that's scary and weird. So she was normal. And so she taught me her system. She said, if you don't want to call people then just text people, you know, just do whatever it's going to work for you. Just find a way. And I was like, wait, I can do that. And so I actually started texting people, in that first month I made $1,000 not knowing what I was doing.Six months later, I made over $5,000, built a team of 50. A few months after that I had earned a car. That month I earned another free insurance, and then earned another car a few months later. And then four years later I learned a system that taught me how to recruit like crazy. And I taught that to my team and we went from a hundred people on my team to over a thousand and it changed my life forever. We became an eight figure sales team. My team did over eight figures in sales and just crazy, crazy. But it's just crazy to think that for that long I struggled, but it was just one day to saying, you know what? I'm fed up enough. We're just going to like make this work. Yeah. So that was the beginning.Beth:Well, and okay, a couple of things that I love is, you notice that she wasn't perfect and I think that that just like made my face light up. Even though we're on a podcast, you can't see it, because that's what I think that vulnerability of you on video is. You're the real deal in showing up and saying, we may not be perfect. And I say that all the time, is like I built my business with sticky notes because I couldn't figure out how to use the Excel spreadsheet, and I've got like, my drunk uncle was driving me around when I was trying to use systems. And you also said find what works for you but have some way that you are booking, like in your case, booking the parties, booking the shows, booking the online events. So you said something to that. I know everyone was like yeah, pulling over to the side of the road, getting out their notes on their phone. You said you developed a system that worked for your team. Do you want to talk a little bit about that? Because that's a Renegade. You are in a company that had been around forever, like the beginning of time. Everyone knew that person that had earned that car in town and then all of a sudden introvert Michelle who went from being shy to being bold is like we've got a system and it's working. So how did that look? Can you share a little bit of what that time looked like? And what you guys all did?Michelle:Absolutely. So that fourth year I had been sitting at a team of about a hundred. I was pretty consistently making about $5,000 a month and I heard a speaker that year that said, or at an event. And the one thing that I took away, she said, Hey guys, I believe that while you're on this earth you should make as much money as humanly possible. And I was like, wait, where's she gonna go with this? I don't know if that, you know, the the poor girl in me. It was like, I don't want to, I don't know if I want to hear this...because I believe that you should live completely debt free. And I was like, okay, I can get on board with that. And then I also believe you should have tons of savings for your future. I said okay, I like that you said. And I then believe you should live below your means.I do. I like to shop at target and resale shop. And you should give back frequently, generously, and anonymously. And that last line of frequently, generously and anonymously, I said to myself, Michelle, you need to step up your game. You could be helping so many more people right now. You have enough to provide for you and your family. How many more humans could you help if you decide to step up your game because the fact that you got to where you are, what if we did that same amount of crazy work like over and over and over again. And I thought, Hmm, I need it. I need to find something. And it was like a God thing. I was on Facebook that night and this cute little blonde appeared on my screen and it was a Facebook ad and she was just pretty, I just clicked on her and I said, let me see what she's all about, cute little blonde thing. And it was Sarah Robbins from Rodan and Fields, the number one seller for Rodan and Fields, and she's making like $1 million a month. I mean, it's just like something, or million dollars. I don't, it's something so insane that you're like, okay, let me learn from you a little human. So I clicked on that.Beth:I love, Love you to learn from you little human. I love it.Michelle:Yes literally, because she was just a little thumbnail is what I mean. She was a little person on my screen. I clicked on the little human and I ordered her book, which is How to Rock Your Network Marketing Business.Beth:That was my first book! I bought too! Oh my gosh, this is crazy. Yeah, that's it. It's tattered and it's highlighted and every, yes, yes, yes. Okay, keep going. I love it.Michelle:So I read the book and all I learned, you don't have to go read the book, I'll just tell you what it is. All I learned is change your story, make it super inspirational and then at the end give them two options. You can join my team today, if you decide not to do that, you can take home products. Those were two things I was missing. I was missing the inspirational story. I had a ho hum story. It was kind of inspirational but not really. So I changed my story to be like, I was the number one person in all of my company. I Owned My Awesome. So I made it like I was in a play with this amazing story and I'm glad to share it if you wanna hear how I roll it out. But yeah, that story. And then at the end I said option one, join my team.Oh, and that's the best deal of all. And then if you decide not to do that, you can take home products. And I usually was just selling product, product, product. And then after I would invite them to meet for coffee after they liked the product. This whole long three week process, which sort of was effective, but I was like, wait, if I could sign people up on the spot. And so I rolled this out for the first time in March, 2000 and gosh, I don't remember what year. But it was, I don't know, six years ago. And I roll this out and my first appointment, I had a lady over to my house, tried the product, I did my arrogance story at the beginning and it was, it was like arrogant, but I was doing what I was reading in the book and I had practiced it all day. And at the end she goes, okay. And I give her options. She goes, okay, so here's what I've decided. I'd like to join your team and I'd like to buy the whole skin care system.And I was like, ah, what the heck just happened? I'm like, that's not definitely supposed to happen. I'm like, you do want it? Yeah. And in my head I'm like, just Michelle, write it up, sign her up, sell her the thing, just do it. So I do. And she goes home inspired, which is what was different. She went home inspired and she told her husband about this inspirational woman that lived a few towns over that was on fire. It was, you know, changing your life. And the next day she called, my husband wants me to get the whole package. He wants me to get started now, because he was inspired. I had never had someone do that before. And it was in that moment that I believe like God was knocking on my head like Michelle, do more of that be loud, because by you being loud and you being proud, you can impact people's lives, you can change their financial situation.And so I had to stop being introverted Michelle and say, okay, I need to be awesome because by me being awesome, I can impact lives. And so the next lady came over that day with her husband and at the end her husband goes, yeah, you should just sign up. And so she joined my team that month. Following that system, I recruited 22 reps personally and my team followed the same system and they recruited another 20. So in one month we brought in 42 new reps to my team, of like a hundred, that's sitting at a hundred for four years. And I was like, that was awesome. Let's do that again. And so we did, we did it again, did it again. And that year I earned the top level car. We had five people become the top 1% of the company. I mean everything changed, right? I went to London that year. I mean just everything, massive movement because of a tiny little shift Owning Our Awesome lead with the opportunity to default to the products. It was such a simple idea. Yet it made such an impact.Beth:I was like, I have chills because so many times that I want to talk about Owning Your Awesome. And that when someone owns their story, and someone has confidence, and it takes time. Those of you that are listening today and you're thinking, but I haven't had the success yet. I don't have that voice that Michelle has or that Beth has. You can be that person, and there's visualization, and seeing yourself on that stage, and there's creating that story that allows you to Own Your Awesome. So I think you might be able to walk us through, if someone wants to walk away from this podcast and Own They're Awesome, and they're being coached by you. what would you tell them?Michelle:I would say to them, and I said this in my group the other day. I said, guys, what is the most you've ever sold at one party or in one day? What is the dollar amount? One girl wrote $1600 and another girl wrote $300 another girl wrote $800, and I said, do you have any idea that the average person out there, that an extra $200 a month would dramatically change their financial situation? Like do you have any idea? And the fact that you can host the party or you can be in front of humans and then two hours of your time you can make $200? That is mind blowing to most humans. That is literally mind blowing. And so if you have a story like that, like in the chat when I shared this, girls were like, Oh yeah, I made $800 in two hours. I'm like, you should be at the every appointment. Yeah, like hanging from the roof, swinging on a Tarzan rope saying, guys, I'm a big deal!I made $800 dollars, I made $400 in two hours. Whatever it is, that is such a huge story. And so putting that dollar amount into your story can make such a huge impact and can really inspire someone. So I always tell people, throw a dollar amount in there. What did you do in a two hour time span or in a day time span, one week I made this money, whatever it is, put your marketing hat on. And you know, as women, we're taught to not be arrogant, but I would say, no, no, this is Owning Your Awesome, and this is going to change lives. So put that away, the arrogance part of it and just Own Your Awesome and share those stories.Beth:And I just had this vision, because I've talked Michelle into being at real life camp. We're going to have a Tarzan rope and we are going to do an Own Your Awesome activity. We're swinging from the rope. I mean I think we should have one in our offices. I love it. Okay. So we're at this point of your business, you're teaching women to own their stories, to lead with the business, to really be real about what's happening in the direct selling network marketing industry. And that was what I needed to know for me to finally say yes and go all in what was possible and why not me? So you've got this team and you're rolling and a lot of what you were doing because of your business was a party plan business. And then you transitioned to a lot of online coaching, training and parties.Can you talk about that transition for those people that might not have the opportunity? And I always, I want to preface this, you guys, you always have the opportunity to be in a person's living room. And I know that we see a lot of things that say, build online. Never leave your house, never talk to your neighbor. But I will always tell you to earn multiple seven figures. I was willing, I wanted to be connecting with that neighbor because I know that in person and online sharing what Michelle just shared, swinging from the Tarzan rope, changing lives is in person. It's online, it's everywhere. If you are passionate, right Michelle?Michelle:It's 100%, and I built so much in my business in person, you know, then I did transition. I did a lot online. I had a lot of success online. But I, most of my clients, all that reorder from, it's all mostly in person. Yes I do get people that find me on YouTube and stuff like that. But it started, and I yes, I 100% agree with you in person. So great. And it's so good for introverts like me to be in front of people because if I'm not in front of people, I find for me it's like a muscle, I can get just quiet and not really want to be around people. And so for me, I kind of force myself to be in front of people to learn human interaction. Because I just sometimes, I just want to be home. I just want to do my thing. So getting out and challenging yourself will make you a more confident person. That's what I found and it brought me success.Beth:Well and I say to people, if I told you that your income would double, triple, that you would impact your family's life, be able to impact the lives of others because you were willing to go to that event, to go and meet with that one person. I remember early in my career, we had had a tough summer and I was tired and I was supposed to get on an airplane and go to Vegas and there was a team growing there and I made it. I think that was when I saw a rising leader, I would get on an airplane and go and meet that person in person, meet their friends, help with the event. It was an investment I was willing to make and I almost canceled this event. I thought, Ugh, I don't really want to fly that. And then my husband said, they are responsible for the money that you're making, your personal actions are, but this team is waiting for you.And I have to say, Michelle, I heard a story at that event from one of the promoters on my team and I journaled about it. And it was how the product had helped her overcome grief. And she shared with me how much she wanted to tell me that in person. And I literally said, I will never miss the opportunity to be in front of people. And it has been what drives me. So let's fast forward, because we're now quite a few years later and now you're this YouTube sensation. You've got this following that is like crazy cult like. You needed to get your systems into the hands of many. You are called to do that. So how did it go from your team to worldwide people just finding you and saying, Michelle, give me what you've got. How did you make that transition and how does your business look today?Michelle:So, it's such a great question because it wasn't ever my intention. I believe that God had a hand in this. Like there's no other good explanation and you know, depending on what your beliefs are, the universe whatever. But literally, six years ago, as an introvert, I said I'm going to start a YouTube channel. Why? Because at that time I was a little bored with my business. So you know how you have a month where you're like, I just feel bored. What can I do in my spare time? I was bored. My son was like three, so I wasn't exhausted and I think it was pregnant, like I'm going to start a little YouTube channel. Or maybe it was right before I started to get pregnant with the next one. And so I have a little, you know, I had downtime, and I don't like downtime.I don't like to watch movies. I get bored, I like to work. And so I'll start a YouTube channel, I'll just make a video. And initially I was like, I don't know what I'll make it about. Maybe I'll make it about organizing. And they made a few videos. That channel still exists. It has 900 followers. I made eight videos about organizing. It's the stupidest videos ever because I don't like organizing, not like I have a very organized office, but my house, you know it's not. So it was funny though, I was making that channel and it stressed me out cause I had to clean before I filmed, and then I was like this isn't my jam. And then one day I was like, but I really like to talk about network marketing and direct sales. Why don't I just do that?Until I started to put out what I was doing. I was just sharing my tips and I could not believe it, but people were like messaging me at 3:00 AM in the morning, and my inbox saying, Michelle, your video just totally changed my life. It changed my business. I love you forever. Oh my gosh, you're so amazing. Do you have more stuff? And I was like, I'll make more videos, I'll make some more. And I just literally for six years, I just kept putting out new videos. I tried to aim for once a week putting out a video, and that was my goal, and I didn't always hit it. I mean, you know, it was sometimes two weeks or three weeks, but I just tried to put out content. Okay. I did not think anything else beyond that. Never thought it would ever turn into else. Well, crazy.But I got a call from a company, they said, Hey Michelle, we found you on YouTube. Can you come and train our sales force or a brand new startup network marketing company? I was like, Whoa, that's awesome. And I was like, sure. And they're like, how much is your fee? I said to my husband, how much? He's like, just say something outrageous. I'm like, well, I wouldn't go there for, I'll say $2,500.00. He's like, yeah, just say that. I said that. And they said, sure. And I was like, Oh, my word, this is awesome. Right? So, say that, go and speak to the company. And a few weeks before I go, they said, Michelle, do you have any training materials? We'd like to purchase your training materials? And I was like, purchase, like I just do free training.What's this purchase stuff? Okay, yeah, I'll make a CD. So I literally went into my son's bedroom. I don't know why, that's where I recorded it. I just remember it must have been quiet in there. But I recorded my first training. It was how to generate leads and then I recorded another one, how to host a home party, how to recruit like crazy, all my secrets on three CDs and I had some artwork made and I got a thousand of them printed. And those have gone on to sell. I think 7,000 of the lead generation have been sold, you know, just crazy numbers. But it all started with that little thing and I was like, Oh, I could sell something. That's interesting. And so then, this January I decided to start running Facebook ads. I was like, maybe these could help more people.So I started to run Facebook ads and then we started to sell like a really lot of them and I was like, well maybe I could make a course. So this new business of mine just kind of started this year where it was like half CDs, but maybe I'll do some courses. So you know, I host Facebook live parties. My first one I ever hosted, we recruited 20 people in 45 minutes and we sold over $20,000 as a team. And everyone was asking me how I did that. I said, I'll make a little course about it called Mastering the LIVES. I made this course and put it out there. And I realized at that moment that when that course launched, I realized that God had said to me, Michelle, your calls are your next level, like I know that I gave you the success in network marketing but now you are called to something bigger.And I like pushed back for 10 months. I did. I said, you know what? No, I'm just, I'll just keep doing both. And I was doing both and trying to manage team and then building courses and, and it was a lot, but I just was like, no, I would go into the top of network marketing. That's what I'm doing. And he's like, but you don't understand. I've given you like literally seven times the income than this other thing. What are you doing? And so I had to honor that and say, you know what? I think you're right. I think I love training people. I love making videos. I love changing lives. I just want to do that. And I have literally like, that's all I want to do. And I made the very difficult decision to leave a team of a thousand reps, eight figures, sales team.Like, I mean, people are like, have you lost your mind? I'm like, well no. I mean it sounds silly that you would leave something this big, but I grew something that was infinitely bigger that required less of my energy. That 100% filled my cup. Yeah. And brought me 100% joy. And I live a life now that I'm like, this is my dream. I'm with my kids all the time. I make videos, I change lives and I absolutely love it and I never thought any of that would happen. But I will tell you, I have, I talked about this with Beth and she'll reveal, but I've got something coming out that reveals how I use video, and not knowing, I just did it to be nice. But that video changed my life forever, and my financial situation forever. And I now am so passionate about showing other people the power of video. You just put out free content, you help people and you accidentally make a following. It was all an accident, but it was a pretty awesome accident that happened to me and I want to show people how to accidentally do what I've done because it's awesome.Beth: I love it. And so when I look back at give back frequently, generously, and anonymously, you are not, you know, God's knocking on your head saying, look, we need to impact more people so that we can make this, not just you giving back in big ways, but teaching others to give back in big ways. The other thing I love Michelle is, you went to the top, you learned to lead, you learned what the frustration was of your people. So that, as a mentor and a coach, like you waited to coach until you had basically done it all and said, okay, I'm called to do more to impact more. And you did show up in my feed on a Facebook ad and I saw the pink office of yours. And I was like, who is this? Who is this? She's so darn cute. Who is this little person? I need to learn from her! Who is this little human? And there's so many ways that our lives run parallel. And so I'm really, really excited. Two, I'm diving in to your video launch course. We're going to put in the show notes, and what is it called again? What's the specific name of it?Michelle:It's called video creator classroom. Yes. And there's also a Facebook group.Beth:So I'm all in because one of the things entrepreneurial add that I have is, Oh, I'll start a YouTube channel. Oh, I'll do this. Oh, I'll do that. So I'm saying it here, because then people will hold me to it. That my commitment is to go all in with podcast content and YouTube content. So I'm all in, I can't wait to get started on the content and I'm following directions. I'm not doing it my way. I'm going to learn from the best. And I hope those of you listening, I can understand that free content. I have people even with my YouTube channel that will grow this year, but I made a tiny little video before we even knew how to turn our phones or have ring lights. And that one video has so many views. And I've recruited many people who have reached out to me to say, Hey, could I join your team? And I was like, what? Like out of the blue, right? You get these messages. So imagine that content that we find. So it's free, right? It's free to be on YouTube.Michelle:It's free. I had a girl, and I forgot to share this, she found me online and joined my team and added over 700 people to my downline. 700 people. And so yeah, those were the things as it was making the channel, I was like, wait, this is awesome. So you know that was happening. I was like, I can't believe this is happening. So the blessings that came from the videos, I mean there's no way my team would have grown to the size it did without her and without a few hundred people in it found me online.Beth:So this power of YouTube brings you high quality leads. and the lesson I'm taking away is do it before you feel ready. Going into your son's room, making that CD back in the CD days and saying yes before you had a perfect presentation. And then that shift that was like, you know what, I need to impact more people and I need to get out of my comfort zone and build a life for my family and for the legacy. I love those pieces. So we're going to close with one question and those of you that want to join us in this course, it is going to be Epic. I'm telling you. And we're going to give you a link below that you can get in because it's pretty new, right Michelle? This is like the first group, brand new.Michelle:Yep. So we had our pilot group go through it, and it is so great. It's just fantastic and people are just loving it and life changing things happening. So exciting. So, so yes, now the pilot groups run through it. It's ready to launch. So it's gonna launch in the next few weeks here. We're just getting all the emails ready and everything. But yeah, it's going to be fantastic.Beth:I love it. And where else? Tell them how to find you on YouTube. Find you on Instagram, Facebook, all the good things. Where do we find you? And then I have one big question to close with, so don't get nervous.Michelle:Okay, got it. So @directsalesmichelle is me on YouTube and on Instagram. And MichelleCunningham.com is my website. I just got my full name. I was so excited.Beth:That's really exciting. Did you wait a long time for your name or did you have to negotiate it? Okay.Michelle:Someone owned it. There was a girl that was a stripper that owned it to be totally honest, and I know, and then I called Wix a few weeks ago and they're like, ma'am, your name is available. I'm like, no, a stripper owns it. He goes, no, no, it's available. And I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, yeah, I have it for $600 or $700. I'm like, well, I kind of want that. I'm like, you think I can get a deal? And anyway, the stripper didn't give me a deal, but yeah, it doesn't matter. I got my name now.Beth:So a stripper owned your YouTube chat, I mean your website.Michelle:Yeah. Oh yeah. So I own Michelle Cunningham online, and then now I have Michelle Cunningham, but I haven't transferred everything over. But Michelle Cunningham redirects you to Michelle Cunningham online.Beth:I love it. I love it. Okay, here is your question. For people listening today that are ready, that need to take an action there where you were during those years of sitting around thinking, yeah, one day, maybe I'll do it. Still doing what they're not loving that they're doing. What are three things that after they finish their workout because we're in their ears or we're in the car. Three things that you can tell them to do today that will lead them to do that success that you are speaking of. Getting to the top of the company, doing all the things, having the freedom?Michelle:So three things. Number one, I would set a schedule, my life dramatically changed and I said, you know what, I'm going to hold appointments Friday at 6:00PM, 8:00PM and Saturday at 10, 12 and 2. I set a schedule and that was it. Those are the little windows that I worked, but that made such a huge impact. I got so much done in the Friday, Saturday that I worked my business. I booked appointments all during the week, but I knew on Friday and Saturday that's when I got dressed, got out of the house, did my thing. So that's number one. Set a schedule and make it. I used to do Tuesday afternoon, Friday mornings, Sunday, Thursday. And my family is like, are you going to be home today? Like no one knew anything. So when they finally knew every Friday, mommy's busy, every Saturday, mommy's busy.There was so much harmony that brought to our family. Number two, I would say positive affirmations all day long. I think as women we just are always overthinking things. So I think fill your cup with things that motivate you. I like to watch crazy people online. Gary Van Der Chuck, he swears a lot, but I do like his message. And so finding people online that have a powerful message. The Tony Robbins of the world, the Sarah Robbins, the really motivational people out there. Follow those people and absorb what they say. And my last tip would be run your own race. Run your own race. Don't look left or right. I think that when you think about what other people are doing and you're worried about what they're doing, it doesn't matter. They're on their own train track. You're on your own train track and your train track is moving. Your train is moving on your track at the rate it's supposed to move and you can make it move faster.But it doesn't matter what people do to the left or right of you. And that includes the people on your team. One person cannot dictate your success. Other people's trains have taken a break and they're having a snack somewhere. That's just fine. You keep your train moving. And so I always stayed in a very happy state because I personally worked my business and I didn't look left or right. I'm so disconnected to the world like, you know what's going on in the world. I don't watch the news, I don't watch other people and I just do my thing because I'm out here just Owning My Awesome. And I recommend the same for you because you can't really think when you don't know anything. It's great.Beth:Okay, the name of this podcast episode will be, Own Your Awesome with Michelle Cunningham. I have notes covering my desk. Michelle. This connection is so amazing because I know that, I already decided we're friends forever. Okay?Michelle:Done. When am I getting my necklace? I want to get the hat. It's actually really funny. That would actually be really fun. I totally feel the same connection to you. So like I want you to know, it's not like you're the weird friend that just likes me. I feel the same way. I also, I'm feeling like, my new best friend. I totally love her. So we're still on the same page and you're such a rock star, and you're so amazing in all that you do. And I just commend you and I am really, I've got to learn about podcasting from you because I want to start one and I've been dragging my feet a little, so it'll be good.Beth:I'll teach you podcasting. It's been such a great connection and so I want to challenge you guys to...I'm just, I'm going to go over, set a schedule positive affirmations and run your own race and just get started. Michelle is a perfect example. Before she was ready, before she had a plan, before she had the perfect pink office. But you guys are gonna be so jealous of the pink office and just do it. Get yourself started and ready and put out the free content and Own Your Awesome. Thank you Michelle. And we'll catch you guys all next week on You're Not the Boss of Me.Oh my goodness. How awesome. How awesome was Michelle today you guys? So let me just ask you to do this for me. Let's get some Instagram love today. So please screenshot this and tag us both @bethholdengrades and @directsalesmichelle and let us know that you loved this episode today. Also, there is still time. This is so exciting that ProfitHER Way is launching this month. We have so much to do and preparing your profit plan, helping you to make money your way. So go ahead and go over to bethholdengraves.com/profit if you are ready to be a part of a powerful mastermind and getting your plan in place for 2020. And as always, I'll see you over at Camp Elevate.Thanks so much for hanging with me today on the podcast and remember, you can create what you crave. If you're looking for a supportive sisterhood, I would love to see you over in our free Facebook group. As most of you know, I love camp. It's part of, 'You're Not the Boss of Me' because when we're building this thing, we're doing this thing. We need a supportive sisterhood and I also crave more fun and more connection. Join us at camp over in the Facebook world, thecampelevategroup.com or just click on the link above and we will see you around our campfire and help you to create what you crave.

James: Hey, audience. Welcome to Achieve Wealth podcast. Achieve Wealth podcast focuses on value add real estate investing. I'm James Kandasamy. Today I have an accomplished couple, Jack and Michelle Bosch. And Jack and Michelle Bosch have done more than 4000 land flips across the nation. Land flips is something very interesting to me. And, you know, it's an asset class, or an asset class, which I think is very interesting. And you can learn how we make money out of it. They've done a lot of single-family houses. And they also have done apartments; 330 units apartments. And, you know, they are continuing to look for more and apartments as well, but I think they are the masters of land flip. Hey Jack and Michelle, welcome to the show. Michelle: Thank you so much for having us, James we're excited to be here. Jack: Thank you for having us, James. James: Tell me, did I miss out anything in your credentials or you know, did I -- Jack: No, other than we're both immigrants, we both came from other countries. So we started here with, just like you, just came over from another country and so we have that in common. But now we flip now 4000 pieces of land. We teach it now; so we have seminars on that. But then for asset allocation, basically the money we make for land flips and whichever way rental properties now, we rolled that into more and more two apartments now. Michelle: Yes. James: Got it. Michelle: To produce what we call one-time cash with the land flips like you work for a once and you get paid once. We're also able to produce some cash flow because we are also able to sell those properties using seller financing, you know. James: Got it. Michelle: And so you do get some mailbox money, but those notes usually come to an end once the property is paid off. And so, we're always in the back of our minds is okay, let's roll cash profits and cash flow into what we call forever cash, which would be a partner. James: Got it. Before we go into the detail of land flipping, I want to understand your background because I know all of us are immigrants So can you tell me when did you guys move to the country? And how did you move? Were you already successful on the day that you land in this country? Michelle: Oh no. Jack: Of course, we're like, we're a billionaire. James: Did you find gold outside the boat? Jack: No. So, Michelle… Michelle: Yes, for me I came from Honduras here in 1995 to study. I came to a tiny little town like about three hours South-West of Chicago called McComb, Illinois, that's where I met this man in the middle of the cornfields. It's basically university town, you know, and nothing else to do.I came here for a business degree, my undergrad, and I was in my senior year there, my third and last year when I met Jack. We shared some upper finance courses together because he was here for an MBA, 10 months. He met me and then he couldn't leave anymore. James: Got stuck, you got stuck in the US. Jack: She's right. She summarized it. I came in 1997, Michelle was in her last year in undergrad. I did come in for a Masters to that same university that had an exchange program with the university I used to go to Germany. And I was kind of like be able to kind of accomplish three goals in one year. Number one; I was able to get an MBA in the United States because it was an accredited school and I was studying business Germany. Already had enough credits and I just needed these 10 months, was enough to give me the American MBA. They give me, I tested out and all of these other things. Number two, I was able to get credit for the missing classes in Germany. So with that, I didn't have to go back to Germany to do more classes. I completed my degree in Germany, those same classes gave me the MBA. Also helped me complete my degree in Germany and improve my English. And the fourth and most important thing, I met this one. Michelle: But to answer your question as to whether we came here successful, absolutely not. I came in with two suitcases to my name, Jack pretty much the same. You know, I was raised by a single mom and my father passed away when we were very, you know when I was very young. And it was, you know, she was sending me here to study with a lot of sacrifices. I had to take several courses, you know, take seven courses per semester, like advanced as much as possible, because I couldn't afford to be in the US for more than two and a half, three years, you know what I mean? And eating soup towards the end of the semester when you run out of money. And, but I didn't have, I did have in the back of my mind the thought that real estate has been incredibly good for my family. You know, before my father passed, he had made an amazing decision. And it was to buy a piece of commercial property that to this day spits out cash, you know, for my mother. And so -- Jack: And that piece of property brought her to college here in the -- Michelle: Got me through college. Jack: And still sustains her mom over there. Yes, in my case and my dad's, again the same thing my mom, not the same thing but similar. My dad is a high school teacher, retired now. My mom's a stay at home mom. So no, I came here with student debt. I came here with enough money to pay for one semester, I didn't have, really didn't have a clue, how I would even pay for the second semester. Luckily, I got a job at school. The first car that I bought in the US was a $900 old Chevy caprice, like the old [inaudible05:31] car that they use to drive around -- James: It had four wheels, right? Four wheels? Jack: Four wheels, yes. Michelle: And I was like Jack, why did you get this, I mean, there are so many cars, why did you get this car? And his answer was like, cars in Germany are so tiny, I was looking for the biggest car possible in the US. Jack: Like Germans and every single one of them bought the biggest car that they could find. James: That's good. That's good. Yes, I like to, that's a very interesting story from both of you, right. So I like to, I mean before we go into the technicality of the commercial real estate and all that, I like to understand a lot about the thought process and you know, the people behind it, right. Because I think that's what makes everybody successful. It's not about the tool like real estate, right. So tell me about what was your family thinking when looking about the US from outside, right? Did they think the US is the land of opportunity, easy to get rich? Or how I mean, can you talk about the process that when families outside of the country when they want to send their children to the US, what do they usually think, you know, what do they think that you kids will get here? Jack: Well, I think Michelle's mom was perhaps not thrilled that she would stay here. Michelle: Yes. James: But not thrilled? Michelle: No, yes. James: Okay. Michelle: The whole point was to come here, study, not find a husband, go back home and basically help her manage, you know, this piece of real estate and hopefully, you know, continue growing the legacy that was left to us. James: Okay. Jack: Next, get a job, right? Michelle: Yes, yes. Jack: Same thing here. My parents were absolutely not thrilled that I was staying here behind. They, I literally had the job lined up in Germany. I had the, I just put my student furniture in my parents' basement. I had a good degree from a good university and good things and they're like, what are you doing? What are you staying there? What's going on there, you're so far away. In particular, my mom had a really hard time with it for several years. But then once they saw our success, particularly once we entered real estate, and once we saw success and what that success actually means for them too and for us. It's like we don't, we see our parents, this year we see my parents three or four times even though they live in Germany. And it's like, and they, we support them a little bit financially. They get to come here and they get to spend time here. And they see that they don't have to worry about us like we're the one or like, we're my, Michelle and our family, they don't, they're like a peace of mind. They're okay. They're good. They're happy financially, they're good. So, you know what as a parent you wonder, you want to have that feeling. So they know, ultimately, it's a good decision and took them like 15 years to say that, but they did. Michelle: Yes, I mean, we also contributed to, you know, being able to retire Jack's dad before time. You know, a couple of years before he had been working as a school teacher for many, many years. And he was just at the point where he just didn't want to do it anymore but he couldn't leave it because, you know, that involved a big reduction in his pension if he did. And so we put the pedal to the metal back then and it was just through land flipping, to be able to make up for that, you know, for those two years of early retirement and being able to retire him early. So -- Jack: So he ended up retiring a year and a half, two and a half years early because of that and James: Wow, awesome. Jack: And so overall so now they totally have changed. Michelle: Yes, so family has been always I think also big why for us, a big driver to get things done. James: Got it. That's absolutely what happened, you can come here and help out your family back home. It's just sometimes people, I mean sometimes they think that okay we want to come to the US and stay here but that was not the case for both of you, right? I mean, you came to study and you're supposed to go back. But you got stuck with each other. Jack: The United States is a wonderful country to be. But then we also, we realized, I don't want to live in Honduras, Michelle didn't want to live in Germany. Nothing wrong with these two countries, they are beautiful countries but language barriers, cultural barriers [inaudible09:40] we're already here, let's try to make this work here. We got lucky, we both got jobs here. We got the job that got the visa, the h1B visa, took five and a half years to get to that process. Michelle: And it was a job, jobs we both hated. But we were handcuffed because of the, you know, green card situation. And so we had to stay but -- Jack: Yes, but yes, it was just something, let's see if we can make this work here because we like it here. And we -- James: Got it. Jack: Beautiful neutral ground also for us. James: So do you think that as an immigrant, did that whole life situation gave you a boost, a reason for you to be successful in the US? Michelle: Absolutely, it like, I think it was incredible, it gives you an incredible drive and hunger. Like I don't come from a wealthy society like Jack's, you know. I was going back to a third world country, you know, yes, from a middle-class family, but still to a very poor society. And so for me, yes, that, you know, that was an incredible drive, you know. You still go back home and those wealth disparities between the haves and have nots are brutal. And so you definitely don't want to be caught in the haves not part. You want to be caught in the other group of people. So, yes, that was definitely a big, big drive for me for sure. Jack: Yes, absolutely, yes, same here. I mean, but a different way. Here, it's more like I could, anytime I could have left and go to Germany, first-class country, Mercedes Benz, would've gotten a good job with a BMW as a business car and expense budget and staying in nice hotels and all those kind of stuff. But the overall I mean, there's something really amazing about the US and I keep saying and it's not like blind nationalism. It's just for business and for success and for comfort, and for just that particular business. It's just an amazing country. It's like so once we started setting our eyes on that, it's like, it's so easy to do this. And definitely helps to be an immigrant, I don't know if the hardship helps if you use them, right. Michelle: Yes. Jack: So we use them as fuel. We used them as a reason why we needed to succeed because we did not want to live a life like I was travelling 100%. I mean, sounds glamorous, like I was jumping the plane on Monday morning going somewhere. But I was staying in Holiday Inn Express where ants were crawling up the walls. And in some cases, and usually, in small towns, where there are five restaurants, three of them are fast foods and I was like working in some companies up till midnight and I didn't enjoy it. So I use those things as fuel to say okay, I really got to do something extra in order to succeed. Now, having said that, being an immigrant here, which as you can probably confirm, is you start, you see way more opportunity that the non-immigrant see. Because it's not normal to you, what you see around you is all new. So as it's new, you look at it from a different angle and you see the holes in it, based on compared to what you see in other places in the world. And it's like well, and any kind of opportunity that ever existed is really masking itself as a problem. So you see, like anything that created like glasses, have been created because people don't see up with eyesight anymore. The problem is the eyesight gives is the solution. So anything even multifamily is the solution to a problem. You take a problem, you take a problem property that's been run down and you make it into the prettiest property in the neighbourhood. You provide a solution for people who want to save, solid, good well-working place, affordable place to live you can make something out of that. And it's true for everything and as an immigrant, I have a feeling you see that much more than then if you're born and raised here and it's everything is just normal. James: Yes, yes. Hey, I had a friend from the UK and he left the UK came to the US and he kept on telling me this. I don't know whether the UK or entire Europe, right, I mean it's a well to do country, it's a rich country but there's no easy part to break out from your circle.You can't break out as a breakout and go to the next level, you’re always within that, you're probably working, you're earning, you're learning, you are living an average life like everybody else, but you can't break out to the next level. So I'm not sure how is that in Germany, but in the US. Jack: Plus Germans, they don't move a lot. So you're on top of it, almost like down by your social circles, that like there's a party, a thing and a friendship. So if you start breaking out, you become you're almost alienating the people around you. Michelle: An anomaly. Jack: An anomaly. James: Okay. Jack: And if you don't have the stamina to keep that off and build a new circle of friendships or so, then you're going to be pulled back down. And that's another benefit as an immigrant, it's like, hey, it's like you didn't burn the boat but you cut the ties. It's a brand new world, it's a brand new opportunity, you associate yourself and make friends with those people that you want to make friends with. And it's just a, it's almost, it's a brand new world. It's a different thing. James: Got it. Michelle: I think especially in Jack's case, you know, resonates with that because he comes from a very small town in Germany. And he's like, there are some people that even though I didn't want to socialize, I had to because it was such a small town. James: Yes, that's true. Jack: Once when I was younger I was in college, I went to study in Spain for half a year. I came back went to my favourite bar and they just asked me, hey you looked tan, what do you want to drink? So nothing changed in like eight months or so. And not a single thing had changed, the same people were sitting at the same desk, tables, in the same bar, drinking the same drink. And 20 years later, still is nothing has changed. It's still, you know, look older and unhealthier but other than that it's the same thing. James: Yes. That's maybe that's why the index happiness index is much higher in some European country. People are just happy with the way they are, right? Jack: Yes, and there's no judgment in that. Michelle: Yes. James: Why do you want to rush? Why do you want to rush? Why do you want to get rich just leave as it is, right so? Jack: Yes, there's nothing set to be there but if you have ambitions if you enjoy growth, like a bit like we enjoy personal growth. We're really on a personal growth journey, it comes with challenges, it comes with new hurdles, it comes with expansion and so it wouldn't be my work. Michelle: And those challenges, you know, are our part, we know are part of the journey. And you think that the goal is you know, a worth goal, but it's really, the goal is a being on a constant process of becoming, an expansion kinda like what Jack said. Jack: And the wealth comes as a side benefit of that. James: Got it. Got it. So let's go to your businesses. So you guys, you had your green card, you came here. You worked for how many years did you work on a corporate life? Jack: Five and a half. Michelle: Five and a half. James: Five and a half, so what happened after five and a half? When did you start your land flipping thing? Jack: Well, the land business, we started about three years in or two years in we realized this is not what we want to do with this job thing. So we started dabbling with real estate. And we really didn't find success until about four years into it, until the end of 2002. So -- James: Hold on, on the two years that you realize that your work is not the thing that you all wanting to do, right? Jack: Right. James: What was that ah-ha moment, say that? Jack: The ah-ha moment was actually, for me was the first particular day that the company of 7000 people, let go a 1000 people in one day. Michelle: Right after September 11. Jack: And the economy did a massive shift downwards, the software company that had grown from 500 people when I joined them to 7000 people, three years later to two or three years later, we're starting to go back down from 7000 to 4000 people. And they did that in one year. As a matter of fact, it was within three days, during that one year. James: Wow. Jack: So one day 1000, another day 1000, another day 1000. These cuts were like for a few months apart from each other. But the first time that happened was when they literally, left and right when they when we were at the customer side, there was a software company. But I don't know anything about software and just wasn't a business, account department. They, business analyst, we were so worried about the customer side, that the phone would ring and our network was shut down. Usually, connect the internet to our corporate networks to get to files and stuff, all of a sudden, nobody could get into the network. It's like, oh, you get it, you get it. Michelle: You know what's happening, right? Jack: We started calling people in other offices, what's going on, you get in, no, nobody could get in. It's like oh, our network is down. Next thing you know, few of them, was over the phone rings, the guy picks up and all the colour leaves his face. And three minutes later, he picks up, he grabs his stuff and says, hey guys, nice meeting you. I was just fired. And he basically picks up his stuff and leaves. And that's it. And I was like, what you mean that's it? Like, again, Germany, if somebody fires you, they have to give you three months, -- Michelle: Three months. Jack: Three months notice. James: I thought it was 12 months notice. Michelle: Yes, so then you can actually train your replacement. Jack: Train your replacement and so on and or least have to pay for three months, some company say go home, but they have to pay for three months. Here, you're off and they gave him I think of four weeks severance if they signed something that they wouldn't sue the company. So and then during the course of the day, a whole bunch of people that I knew were let go. And I was sweating bullets, obviously, you know, we both were sweating bullets, because obviously, we work -- Michelle: And at that point, I had joined actually Jack's immigration, you know, files and paperwork because we figured, okay, there are very few people trying to emigrate from Germany. And there's so many more coming from south of the border, that stuck on Jack's application. And so we were both, you know, on his paperwork. Jack: So if I would have lost that job, we would have 60 days to find another job or leave the country. So at that moment, we realized, okay, this is, we're so breaking replaceable here, we're just a number in this big wheel of 7000 people. And after the day only 6000 people were like, okay, we got it, we got to do something else. We don't like it. After five and a half in an industry, you're almost like pigeonholed in that industry. I didn't want to stay for the rest of my career in that industry. So we wanted to get out. And we didn't know how to do that we just looked around. And after a few months or weeks of looking, we came across real estate, tried all kinds of different things, but couldn't get anything to work until we came across land flip. Michelle: And I think the land flipping thing was even, like falling forward. Jack: Yes, like pure coincidences, just like -- Michelle: We're looking into taxing and taxing you know, taxing investing. And I had gone up to somewhere in Northern California to a taxing option and stumbled upon, you know, a piece of land, a lady that owned a piece of land and we auction it off. And we're like, oh my gosh, you know, how could we do something like this? But instead of waiting until an auction happens, you know, how can we get to people much, much sooner. And because if she's a, you know, an owner of vacant land and wanted out, there must be other people. Jack: So we started sending direct mail to owners of real estate who have back taxes. And only people that own land, call us back. And -- James: You know what, that is exactly happened to me. I was trying to look for houses and all the people with land call me back. I said I don't want land, I want houses. Jack: There you go, you just missed out on a big opportunity right there. James: Yes, I should have known you guys. Jack: And then one guy had a property, it was worth about $8,000. But he hadn't done it, what's called a percolation test to make sure to put a septic tank in there, to see how the water, how fast the water sinks in the ground and it hasn't passed the septic test. So to him, it was worthless and he was leaving the state and he was wanting to leave. And he's like you guys can have that thing. And it's like, well, how about $400, he's like take it. So we got this thing for $400. And we sold it literally the next day to the neighbor across the street for $4000. James: Wow. Jack: And that became the beginning -- Michelle: And that's because our negotiation skills sucked. We were, the neighbor shows up Jack: And they just offered 4000 and we said, yes. Michelle: We were ecstatic, you know. Jack: Instead of like negotiating, we're just like -- James: You were like 10 times more, that's it, done, right? Jack: Right. And then the next deal was 10,000, the next deal, babe then we got to deal with like 21 properties for $30,000 that we sold for over $100,000. And then all of a sudden things started working. And then we also realize that most people that want to get rid of these properties don't actually even own property taxes. So now we go after all the general land and we generated millions of dollars, and we started doing this part-time then. Then Michelle quit her job because she was on the visa, started this full time. And then in March of 2003, I got, we got the green card. And then a few months later we felt comfortable. Michelle: I retire again. Jack: Retire, exactly. James: So my wife styles me. Jack: Then so in October of 2003, we quit our job, but it just we stumbled into that, bonded, built it up. And then for several years, we put the blinders on and all we did was land flipping. We only put our head up when the market crashed and everyone around us was losing money and we're still making lots of money. And then that's when we started buying single families and then later apartments. Michelle: Because we could buy houses here for forty, fifty thousand dollars, you know, with five grand in repairs and rent them for anywhere between $900 to $1100. James: Yes. Michelle: So you know, it made sense. And we had all the cash profits, you know, from the land business, because that land business actually, we're able to grow it very rapidly to almost an eight-figure business. You know, the first year we did about 60 deals, the second year, we did about 120 deals, 130. Jack: The third deal, 3800 deals. Michelle: Because we use them, we figured out a way to flush a lot of these properties. And by using auctions. So we used to have big live auctions, you know, we advertise on TV, radio, billboards, periodicals, online flyers. And get like 600 people to a room here in the Phoenix Convention Center, and sell them in one day 250, 200 to 250 parcels. And so we were quickly able to scale that and -- Jack: Build a bigger operation then, with like 40 full-time people. At the auction days, we had 120 people work for us, it was a big operation and we built them. And then we use those profits to then get into the forever cash market meaning buy, put asset allocation, as I call it, take the money we made and roll it over into something that brings cash flow for the rest of our lives. Now we have like 50, completely free and clear rental properties, which now have quadrupled in value. And we still own. James: That's awesome. Awesome. It's very interesting on how you stumble upon doing yellow letters. So that's how, I mean, I was looking for houses. And I believe I look at tax lien lease, if I'm not mistaken, people who didn't pay tax because most of the people who have an empty land, they don't want to pay the tax, right? Jack: Right. James: Because I think there's no cash flow, there's nothing coming. So Jack: Exactly. James: So many calls coming back, I was surprised at the number of response, people calling, but was calling all for empty land. And I say, I'm not going to buy that. So but looks like you guys monetize that I, I should have known that. Michelle: And you know, and even there, it's like in our countries, there's no way that you're going to lose your property over for taxes. But here in the US, you do, you know, the tax lien foreclosure method or through the tax [inaudible 0:25:16]. So those are opportunities that perhaps we were able to really, you know, hold on to because neither of our country's -- Jack: We would like, it blows away that people would even let these properties go for taxes, it was a perfect opening for us. And yes, so we monetize it in two ways. We learn, we wholesale them, we wholesale them. And we still do that, we just sold one week, actually two last week and, I don't know, every week there are sales. And we wholesale them, basically we buy something for $2,000 and go sell it for 10, that's not a bad profit, right? James: Absolutely. Jack: You can live off that. And plus, they're very affordable these properties. Or what we also do is we sell a seller financing. So a couple of months ago, there was one particular deal I want to highlight, is we bought the property for $5,000, an empty lot here in the city of Phoenix. And we sold it for $64,000 with a $6,500 down payment. So if you do the math, we paid five for them, and we got 6,500. So we got all ready -- Michelle: Our money is back. Jack: The moment we sell the property, our money is back. And now for the next 20 years, we get $500 a month and we'll make over $112,000 total on a property that we have zero money in, the moment we sold it. James: That's awesome. That's awesome. So let's walk through the land, the best land flipping strategy. Right? Jack: Okay. James: Because you guys have done it many times, right? So first is where do you get the list of landowners? What the, where's the best place to find? Michelle: So there are three possible places, we are still in love with a more difficult one. Because the harder it is for me, the harder it is for everyone else. James: Correct. Michelle: So there are places like Rebel gateway or Agent Pro, where you can get lists. And I think these two -- Jack: Lists services. Michelle: List services that basically, Jack: Online lists services, James: Lists source, right? Is it list source or -- Jack: List source or logic or agent pro 24/7.com. There's a whole host of different websites. James: What kind of list should we look for? Jack: We're looking for land lists, ones with value James: Other criteria, right? Jack: Yes, land, the other criteria is that the land value is below $100,000. Typically, because we found that to be our sweet spot, now you can go up above, but then your response rates are going to drop. [inaudible27:41] the pay for these properties just skyrockets and so on. But you can do those deals like we have a student the other day that made $192,000 flipping a deal that he put on the contract for much more than we usually put the properties under contract for. It went for 80 and he sold then for, what is that, close to 270 or something or 300. And then he made his offer to closing costs 192,000. But usually beyond that, we like out of state owners, but they don't have to be out of state. So there's a couple of other criteria. Then once you get that list, -- Michelle: You send them you know, you send them a letter and you can either you know printing stuff and stamped and lick all your envelopes and your letters. Or you can send it through a mailing house if you want to outsource that and send out letters and just hold on to your seat because you're going to get -- James: You're gonna get a lot of calls. Michelle: A lot of calls. Jack: Right, you're going to get a lot of calls, exactly. We did, for example, yes, when you send out these letters also, so we don't use the yellow letter, we've developed our own letter and split tested that hundreds of times until we got it to a point where we could not improve the performance of it anymore. And so our letter sometimes, there are a few counties where you get lower response rates, but usually, you get at least a four or five, six percent response rate. And it can go as high as 15 to 20%. James: So let's say now someone calling you, say I will land to sell, can you buy from me? What are the things you look for, to see whether you want to take down their number and follow up with them? Jack: First thing is motivation. Michelle: Yes. Jack: Because almost any kind of land sells, it's just if you get it cheap enough. Now, having said that, there are certain areas, certain pockets that we don't buy. I mean, there are areas in Arizona, where its land, an acre of land is worth $500, that's not worth pursuing. So the value needs to be there. So we typically don't just go below $100,000. We also start above 10,000. So that we have, -- Michelle: So you don't get crap. Jack: So you don't get crap. Michelle: Yes. Jack: So good language here. So you gotta get you together, you don't get junk land. James: Thanks for being nice. Jack: Yes, we have that ongoing, she's the foul mouth in the family. Michelle: Hey, you throw me under the bus. Jack: So then you, yes, you sent out these letters, I thin I forget the question. James: The question is, once they call, what are the criteria -- Jack: You asked them a few questions, you go through a list of questions that we created the script for and asked like if there's early access, if there is utility to the properties, and none of those things is a deal-breaker, they just determine how much you ultimately going to offer for property. James: Got it. And how do you determine what you gonna offer? Jack: Comparables, you run for market comparables similar to houses plus there are a few extra ways, like for example, particularly in rural areas, there might not be comparables of the same size. So if you're looking at five acre parcel, and you only have like 10 and 20 acre parcels, and there's no other five acres to sold or listed, you gotta adjust for size sometimes. So basically, a 10-acre parcel is listed or sold for $30,000. Well, five acres, not automatically worth 15, it's more worth a little bit more, because in rural areas, the smaller the parcel, the higher the price per acre. Michelle: Yes. Jack: So you get down, it's like the other way around, the bigger you go, the more kind of volume discount you get on the acreage. So going from 20 to 40 is not a doubling, it's more like a one and a half times in value. James: Got it. Jack: So 20 is, so the value over 20 years because of comparable shows you that's $40,000 and an 80 is not a 20 to 40 or 40-acre parcel is not $80,000. It's more like $60,000. So there's kind of you can adjust for those things. But the nice part is we buy our properties for five to 25 cents on the dollar. So that's the key to this entire thing. Because when you buy at 10, 15, 20 cents on the dollar, you can be off in your analysis and still make money. And you can make money by selling the reseller of financing and getting a down payment that pays for the property. And you have so much margin of error and so much offer in there that it's almost impossible and I'm not saying it is but it's almost impossible to screw up. James: Yes, yes. And what tool do you use to find those comparables? Jack: We use, we go on Zillow, we go on Redfin, we go on realtor.com, we go on landwatch.com, the same free websites, because I ideally go on the MLS, but the MLS only has, doesn't have all the land is allowed land it sells like owner to owner. And also even if you have access to the MLS, we do deals from Hawaii to Florida. Our students do deals out of the country, you usually only have access to the MLS in one little pocket. So it's impossible to almost have access to the MLS all over the country. Michelle: And it's relatively easy to do the comparable analysis we develop, like our own proprietary software that basically connects through you know, to Zillow, Redfin and all these services. So when I'm at a record, you know, and I'm looking at it immediately it populates for me, you know, whatever comparables. And if it's a little bit, you know, more, if it takes a little bit longer for me to do that, it's maybe eight to 10 minutes, you know, to look up a record elsewhere, specifically, like if it's an info lot, and it's completely built out, you kind of have to like back into the value of the land by figuring out, you know, what are the average, you know, prices in homes in this area? What is the average square foot? How much would it take a builder to, you know, building your house and, and kind of that way back into the value by -- Jack: So we build five methods to the value of the thing, not less, not the least is actually assessed value, any counties the assessed value as a relationship to the market value. And if you can prove over the first 10, 20 analysis that you do that this relationship is reliable, and you can just use the assessed value too for evaluation. Michelle: In a particular county. Yes. James: So you have to pay property tax on all this land, right? Do you try to flip it within the year so that you don't pay property taxes? Jack: As a matter of fact, the way most of our students are doing this is that they don't actually ever buy the property. What they do is that they put the property on a contract and then go market the property right away, and then either do an assignment or do it what's called a double closing, where they use the same day transaction where they buy it and sell it both in the same day. And the buyer brings up all the funds that pays everyone. So -- James: That's a wholesaling technique, right? Jack: It's a wholesaling technique, James: Yes, like in houses, that's what -- Jack: Exactly it's same, the same technique just that we use land for it. And the nice part about land is there's no tenants, no toilets, no termites, there's no repairs. There's no you don't have to show anyone the property. Michelle: James and in the competition -- Jack: Is almost none. James: That's why so many people call me. Jack: Somebody on this podcast just told us that he walked away from owning land because he didn't know -- James: I know. You know, I was thinking that time why are these people selling all their land. I mean, there must be some business here. But I was so busy looking at houses, right. And I thought… Jack: Right and that's the normal thing. So there's almost no competition. And for the last 12 years, we have done this entirely, virtually we have not looked at a single piece of land ourselves. James: Yes. Jack: Google Maps, Google Earth, you can see it all, you don't, Google Street View, you can just drive by your lot, take pictures. And it's all there, no reason to get dirty and dusty out there. Michelle: And that's another thing that I think I want to add in terms of like how simple it is. And now that we've like perfected our system, how predictable it is, you know, is that when we started looking into real estate, because we're both not from here, we had no clue completely clueless about construction, about estimating repairs for kitchen or bathrooms, for flooring, for roofing, we had no idea. And you don't have to deal with any contractors, any, you don't have to deal with any of those headaches that usually you have to deal with improve property when you're dealing with land. So that's something else we forgot to mention. Jack: And that's actually why we also, the main reason why we didn't jump from that multifamily right away, but we took the bridge of single families because we first needed to learn the details of how much does it cost to rehab a kitchen and the bathroom, and the flooring and windows and things like that. We didn't want to tackle a $10 million project first. We wanted to go, start small, so we bought some rental houses with their own money so if we make mistakes, it costs us money and not our investors. And little by little we then learned and after realizing that we can manage those also remotely because our houses are in three different markets; Phoenix, Cleveland, Omaha and an even though new houses in Cleveland, I just hold a show last week. I may have a few houses that I couldn't even find anymore because I haven't, the last time I saw them was like eight years ago, and they spit out cash flow every month. The property management companies who charge them, everything is good. So after that experience was like we're ready for a step up and now buy the bigger buildings and manage them. And we can also do that remotely. James: Okay, that's awesome. So I'm thinking why did I miss this opportunity, right? And I think the answer to my question was, I do not know who to sell to. So how did y'all solve the problem? How do you go to market, okay, today you get land, how do you go and find the seller? Jack: So initially, we started with eBay and newspapers and then we figured out this big land auctions. But the big land auction stopped working about 2007, 2008. Michelle: And started doing online auctions. Jack: And then we started doing online auctions, we shifted, started everything online. So since about 2008, the middle of 2008 now, we have been pursuing and we have been selling all our land online through websites like Craigslist, through Zillow, through MLS. If you own the property, if you have a paragraph in it, it's just that you're allowed to market it. You can even a property if you own it, it's easy to sell it on the MLS anyway, if you don't own it, you can have a paragraph in your contract which we have, that allows you to market this then you can put it off to the brokerlessMLS.com for $99 goes on the MLS. Again, but in other, this land specific websites like land watch, landfliprealtor.com again, land of America and the biggest one that is right now driving the most traffic for us and everyone else is the Facebook marketplace. James: So they are people looking to buy land from people? Jack: Oh, lots of people like -- Michelle: Facebook marketplace and Facebook groups land, land groups. Jack: Yes, Facebook land groups. Yes, there's a big market. I mean, we focus on three kinds of land. Number one [inaudible 0:38:34] lots, can sell immediately to a builder. Number two, the lots in the outskirts of town, right, if this is the city right on the outskirts of the city, that's where we still buy land because it's in the path of growth. Cities like San Antonio, cities like Austin, cities like Dallas, cities like Phoenix, cities like LA, like Denver, all over the country, they're growing, their growing infill. They're there. They're growing in the outskirts of town we're there and there are two ways and the third way is we're focusing on larger acreage in the more rural areas. And that is for the multi-billion dollar market off RV, ATV's, hunters, campers, how would you love to have a 40-acre ranch out into the hills of East Texas, right? Wouldn't that be beautiful? James: Yes. Absolutely, Jack: Yes. And there's millions of people that are looking for that. And then we put the one on top because we get so cheap. If you offer those properties with seller financing, they sell very quickly. Michelle: Or a discount -- Jack: Or discount or market value, wholesale, there is price, will advertise it's a good property, it sells very quickly. And for example, one of our students just posted something that they put, they put an ad on the Facebook marketplace and within 24 hours that has 4250 people look at it and comment and message them. And obviously, they had to take the ad down and had multiple offers on the ads in one day. Now that's not necessarily typical, it might take a few weeks for the property to sell. But there are buyers with it's a b2c market right, we're the business to the consumer market. And the end consumer buys a lot of these lots and the [inaudible40:18] lots are B2B to the builders. Michelle: Yes. James: And how do you check the entitlement of the land? What is it zoned and all that? Jack: There's another company, Michelle: Yes, so you go through a title company, make sure titles free and clear. Jack: There are title companies that we use are not the same companies, different department that we use when buying a $10 million apartment complex than when we buy for it for a $30,000 piece of land. Obviously, the cost is different because they charge us a minimum cost, which is usually anywhere between $700 and $1200 a deal. But if you're about to make $50,000 on there, you can pay $800 and then make 14,200, still okay. James: What about land, which has a utility or going to get utilities, is that much higher price than? Jack: Usually it is and usually it's already, Michelle you can. Michelle: Go ahead. Jack: Usually, it's already in the assessed value included, occasionally it's not because the assessors like a year or two behind. But it's definitely already when you run your comparables, it's already in the market because that word is out and then other properties in the market are going to be listed higher, which tells you, okay, or listed or sold higher, which shows you the market value is higher. So your offer is going to be higher and the seller is going to be happy to accept it. And you make more money in the process. Michelle: And it's much more attractive to buyers too. Jack: And it sells quicker. Yes. James: Yes. So I can see people like me doing this, right, because I already have done the yellow letter marketing, I know all the languages and you know all that. But so anybody can do that, right? It's a simple business, which makes a lot of money. And you are basically bridging the gap between people who need the land versus marketing to their direct seller who is in a distressed situation or who just want to get out from. Most of the time they inherited the land, they don't want to pay tax and they just get rid of it. Jack: Looks like you talk to a few of them. James: I did, talk to a few of them. A lot of them said hey, you know, my mom gave me and she died and now I have to pay property tax on it. And can you buy it or not? Jack: Exactly right. Michelle: So you're helping them and then you're helping your buyers too. And I think the how quickly you sell the property has a lot to do with how you market the property, how what kind of listing you create, you know. There's a lot of crap where you just show a piece of dirt and no, you need to dream it, you know, you have a catchy headline. I mean, you have to understand a little bit of marketing and copy and grabbing people's attention and so on and so forth. But nothing that you can't learn. James: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And what do you think? I mean, you have a property software on it, right? What problem does it solve? Michelle: So what that does is, so back in the day, when we were starting, and we were doing in just a few deals, you know, we could manage to keep our stuff, you know, on paper, on an Excel spreadsheet. But the moment we basically started really scaling this, you know, at the point that we started doing the auctions, we could no longer continue using Excel spreadsheets, we really needed you know, a CRM. And not just a CRM to keep track of our buyers and our sellers, but to keep us organized in our process flow. From the moment that the mailing went out to the inbound call being received to are we ready on the status where we've done research and ready to send an offer, has the offer come back, accept it and we sent this out to title escrow, is it back? Is it ready to be put into the catalogue for the auction, you know, for sale? And so it basically it's a process deal flow from beginning to end for land specifically. Jack: And we build the software in-house that guides you along step by step through the process of buying a property, keep them organized, like statistics, as tax, there is a built-in buyers website, seller's website, calculator for the numbers and things like that. James: So why do you need like, you know, like you said, you have like 15 staffs, right, you have the CRM, what function does the staff do? Jack: The staff does the work, I mean, the CRM organize to work for you, but somebody needs to put in the data. And somebody really needs to press the buttons and do the -- Michelle: And somebody needs to pick up the calls from the buyers. Like we have a lady that is just in charge of that as of this position, basically, there are other people making sure that the phone rings and she's just answering them. Jack: But having said that, this is us, right, we want to spend our time with our 11-year-old daughter travelling the world. We want to spend our time focusing on apartment complexes and not focusing but spending our time, we love learning right and looking at complex deals and things like that. So after building our land business to the level that wanted to build it, we started putting a team in place of it. Having said that, we have many students that run one of them, at the top of the head, I think of one of them is also a coaching organization. He is on track this year to do 120 deals alone with one assistant with one virtual assistant. So the thing is, because it's simple because you don't have to rehab anything, because if you don't have to do anything like that, he can do a, he can do 120 deals just as a two-man or a man and woman, kind of show. And so you don't need a big staff is a point, we have a staff of like somebody picks up the phone calls, answer them they, you can outsource everything. So we use a mailing and a call center to take the phone calls, we use a mailing house to send out the letters. So what we have inhouse is somebody does the deal analysis to figure out what the properties are worth, and somebody who team of two people that prepare the listings and go sell the properties. Anything else you don't really need, anything else you can do, you can outsource. Michelle: And documentation, unless you like to work with documents, paperwork. Jack: But all of that is electronic. Again, it comes in we have buyers signed by DocuSign. We have, we scan things, we put it on to Dropbox, we use different files. We attach them to our CRM and stuff. But it doesn't require a lot of people to do this, which makes it even more profitable. James: Yes, yes. I mean, I think you've sequence it very nicely so that you can scale gracefully and you can have your own time too, awesome. Jack: Probably the biggest thing I think that this business because there's no competition and as you said the sellers have people that are, there are people that inherited this property, they're not getting 25 letters a week, like the hospitals. They're getting nothing a week, so when your letter comes in and when you make that offer, we sent the offer by mail to them, we give them 10 days to actually accept the offer. Then when we buy it, we get a contract and we have three months or four months or six months, whichever we want to close on it. So it destresses the entire thing. That means we can design this business around our lives. And so the life designing with a life -- Michelle: Retrofitting it into the business, Jack: Yes, determining when we have free time. So it's truly a business that can be done based on everyone's work schedule and in full time can be designed such that you work with around the things that are important in your life. James: So does it still work now in this economic cycle? Jack: It's actually right now is the best market that we have seen in probably 15 years. Michelle: Yes. James: Why is that? Jack: Because the market is up so it means that buyers are, still buyers will, the sellers will always be there. James: Sellers always be there, yes. Jack: There's always going to be people that inherited the property and don't want it anymore. But the buyers are right out there, right now out there in the market. They're positive, they're upbeat, they want to buy these properties. They want to take them up, take their RV's up there. Michelle: Ride their RTV's. Jack: Ride their RTV's, spilled something on it so the properties are flying off the shelves, and probably the big right now our properties and our students' properties, we see the highest margins that we've probably seen since we teach this. James: Awesome, awesome. Michelle: We have people that are doing this that are you know, stay at home moms, single moms to Rob, who's a dentist, he no longer is a, well, he will always be a dentist, I guess. But he sold his practice because, you know, 10 months into the land flip he's like, I don't need to be behind the chair anymore. And now his wife who is also a dentist is looking to sell her practice as well, to people that are having a job still in parallel because they, you know, they are already 30 something years in it. And they're like they have just one more year for their pension. So they don't want to go back and are doing it in parallel. I mean, we have -- Jack: It's across the board. Michelle: It's across the broad, from all works of life. James: Yeah, I can see anybody doing this, right? It doesn't take a lot of time and effort, not like house flipping or even rentals or… Michelle: Yes, in the house flipping world, you get a call from a seller and he says I'm interested. I mean, you better meet him at the property, like within a few hours, because you're going to have two or three people that are chasing the same house. James: Yes, yes, yes. That's what happened to me. I missed out on the land flipping, I went house flipping, life has become so busy. So coming back to the next level commercial asset, not the next level. I mean, the other commercial asset class that you guys are doing, which is multifamily, right. And you said you're doing it so can you explain that to me why you're doing that? Jack: Yes, we're doing that for long term generational wealth. So in other words, right now we do syndicate deals. So we have some deals that we make very good money, but and we have our assets and our paid-off properties. But so we wanted to take the next step in complexity, the next step and leverage the next step in personal growth. So we -- Michelle: Exactly, I think our investing has really followed our own personal journey, you know, of development and growth. So Jack: Right, so one of the things, so we started buying these properties. And the first one, we realized, we syndicate it with our investors. And then the second one, the first few we syndicate investors. As a matter of fact, the first one we came in as a junior partner. So we raised the thing, the guy that couldn't raise all the money. And the moment he was about to lose this deal and he basically said, like, if you guys raise half of the money, you get half of the deal, which is obviously a great, great deal. I've never come across that. Michelle: And we're gonna learn how to do it, as he has been doing this for many years. I'm like, that sounds like a perfect situation. Jack: But we also needed to put in $80,000 in escrow deposit, which we could have lost. So it was, he asks for something and he gave something, was a great deal. So we came in, we ended up raising 60% of the money. And doesn't matter, we didn't get more than 50% of the deal. We got in we learned a ton and then we started doing this on our own. And the first few deals like there was just, we have a lot of income, but we have like your cash availability is not always $3 million, right? So we basically looked at it as like we needed $3 million. Let's put some money in ourselves and let's raise the rest through syndications. So we did a syndication for the last few deals. And at some point of time, we might transition into doing deals without investors, the reading hold on for the long term, 10, 20, 30 years, and then our daughter can potentially then inherit and she can keep them or sell them and upgrade them and so on. But in essence, it's a way to, what attracted us to it over the single families is that there's another layer of management, another layer of separation between us and the actual issues on the problem. Michelle: Yes, because now all of a sudden, you know, when you're looking at 100 doors at a time, and that scale allows you to have you know, on the ground, a full time, you know, leasing person, a full-time person for repairs or maintenance. Another one that is turning units around, you know, we have the regional director with, you know, with the property management. And so for us, it's really a lot of asset management, but not the everyday thing of like, would you approve, you know, the repair on a toilet or on this, small things-- Jack: Which, today, I got two more in our single families because they have an authorization limit of $500 on me there because I don't trust them with more. So on a single family, so everything over $500 goes to me, which is literally something three or four things a week that happen especially in summer when it's hot, and AC breaks and so on, that are just like driving me crazy. Because every single time it's like they don't give you the information you need. They don't give you the details you need, you have to jump on the phone call, you have to email back a few times. They don't follow the instructions and how to submit it versus when you operate on a larger property, you can distance, you're removed from these things. You get a status report, you can dive in with your expert partner on the deal, I mean, the regional manager into it. And more than anything, the other thing we realized is you very well know, you can force appreciation and you can force value increase rent, which on the single-family house, you can just, you just cannot do. Michelle: Yes. And elevation is not based on the income but it's fixed but based on other properties. James: Yes, yes I always say that you can build a house, painted with gold, on real gold but the value is still going to be following the other houses surrounding it. Jack: Exactly. James: Are you guys using the depreciation from multifamily to offset the active income on your land? Jack: Yes. Of course, yes. Big time. I mean we -- Jame: That's double right. Jack: We have done on all the units we have, we have done the cost segregation study, and it is literally. Michelle: It shows a lot of the profits from the land flipping even from the educational business, you know, it's a very purpose-driven business for [inaudible 0:54:03] and it throws a nice chunk of cash. And I'm like, we need to, you know, protect that. And so we're, it feels like, you know, with apartment investing, we get to have the cake and eat it too, in terms of, you know, getting the cash flow in. Jack: We get cash flow, we get income, any cash flow, we get appreciation and we get the tax benefits that wipes out almost the entire income of the other things that we do. So it's a it's like a dream come true. Yes. James: Yes. So you want to consider real estate professional, not because of the land, but because of that single-family homes? Jack: Because of really everything I mean, Michelle: That's all we do. James: If you do just land, are you considering real estate professional? Jack: Yes, the land is real estate. As a matter of fact, I always say that when somebody says I've never dealt with land, only do houses. I said like, it's actually I said, it is actually an incorrect statement. Because you have never bought a house -- James: Without the land? Jack: What you buy is the land and the house on it. James: Yes, correct. Jack: That's truly a land transaction that had a house on it. The legal description of the property is not the house, it doesn't say it's a four-bedroom, three bath house, no, you're buying this lot, lot number 23 with whatever it happens to be on it. And what is on it is a luxury house or a dump is just defines the value differences. But so with a real estate professional, doesn't have to be defined by analysis, or commercial, or you can be land too James: Got it, got it. So let's go to a bit more personal side of it. So no technicals? So why do you guys do what you do? Michelle: I think for me, you know, in the beginning, it was about us having freedom of money, time, you know, relationships. And right now, it's about freedom of purpose, you know. It has you kind of like, you know, when you're struggling, somebody is listening to this, they're struggling, or they have a job they hate or whatever, the very first thing that you look at is how can you take care of your immediate family? When you have that taken care of, then you start looking at, okay, how can I, you know, start, you know, helping them my church or helping in my community or helping on a much, much larger scale. So for me, you know, a lot of my, you know, what drives me right now, and my purpose and my why is to become a mentor and a leader. You know, for other women to start investing in real estate, to start, you know, having their money work for them, for example, and set an example, you know, I want to be a hero for my daughter. And I want her to also grow into a lady that you know, knows how to manage your finances, that is very comfortable with investments, whether small or large and so on. So, Jack: For me, along the similar lines, I remember the year 2007, when we were and we had accomplished our first major, big financial goal, which was a certain number, I feel everyone has their number and goal in mind. And we had just moved into a gorgeous, semi-custom home that we designed from scratch up and all of a sudden, we're like, you reach those goals, and you almost like fall into a hole. And we fall in that hole because you expect to be like all candy and rainbows and everything and unicorns, but actually the quite opposite of that. But it's like for a moment you celebrate and then you're like, what now, right? So we basically sat down and was like, okay, so we can sit down now and we can go retire in essence, we can go sit down, we can do nothing. But we realized, for example, there's a charity in Michelle's home country Honduras, that we said we could go work in charities, in charitable work. But we realized, we're really very good at getting businesses to a profitable stage, we're good at kind of creating money, Michelle: That's kind of like our genius. Jack: And so that we are not the person that's going to live in the Honduran in rain forest jungle and feeding the poor, so but it's close to our heart. So why don't we stick to what we love doing Michelle: Our strength. Jack: So that we generate the money that we can be more impactful in those kinds of things. And as a side thing, I love real estate, I mean, I don't see myself not doing real estate ever. I mean, I hate it the entire the IT industry. I'm not personally involved in the continuous development of our software, because I'm kind of scarred from that time in the IT industry. I get involved into the what the vision is of it, but, and then we have a great guy that drives the implementation of these things. But we focus on deals, we focus on and if I can focus deals for the rest of my life and opportunities then I'm a happy camper, it's just what I love doing. So and it throws off money and that allows us to help more people, that is awesome. Michelle: And be transformational in the way, you know, and the way we treat our investors and the way that you know, people that want to participate in our deals. Jack: So the teaching side of things, we started the teaching side of things also kind of like almost like a mission kind of the point of view that not that we need the rest to save the world. But there are so many people out there that do real estate either the wrong way or that they don't know that there's an easier and simpler way that you can do real estate. And learn and grow build the confidence and capability in your life that then allows you to do whatever the heck you want to do afterwards that we feel like I was called to teach this and show the land flipping part of things to people. So they can also get on their own feet. And we have had years where we lost money in that business where we put it on their own pocket for and it was still fulfilling because we see the difference that it makes in the people's life. So we were committed and our core values are to be transformational. Michelle: Yes. And it's not just walking a person through a deal by really sculpting someone's spirit you know, someone's confidence, someone's courage through the process of a real estate deal. So it's incredibly rewarding work for sure. James: Okay, okay. So why don't you tell about how to find you guys. How can the listeners find you? Jack: Easiest way to find us on the land flipping side is to go to landprofitgenerator.com and you can also go to www.orbitinvestments.com, there's a link over to the land flipping side. There's a couple of other links on too. James: Okay. Michelle: I'm on Facebook Michelle Bosch, Instagram michelleboschofficial. Jack: And again on the land site we since we don't teach the apartment complex things, you do that. We have no educational things about that, we just, we do syndicate with investors. We do probably similar deals and but on our website like all the educational things all about land flipping. So we have a Facebook group called Land Profit Generator Real Estate Group. So everything we do on the land side is called land profit generator. So you look for land profit generator, you find us and orbit investments is more like the overall holding company above everything else with links to all the different pieces that we do. James: Awesome. Well, Jack and Michelle, thanks for coming in. I learned so much and I learned what I didn't miss too, but I'm sure the listeners learned a lot of things from today's podcast. Thank you for coming in. Michelle: Thank you so much for having us, absolutely. Jack: Looking forward to seeing you at the next mastermind. James: Absolutely. Thank you Michelle: Thank you, bye.

                  It's week 2 of our series on Brandi's *patented* process. We're covering the topic of word maps, mind maps, mind searches, what are they and how can you use them to guide your designs? Get out your notebooks and prepare for more insight into her secret sauce to making your best work. Process Series Part 2a: WORD MAPS!!!  Design is all about making connections, and that's what the word map does, using words in a visual way Word Maps in literatrure help you find themes and connections; they do the same for design. Themes are the same things as Concepts, and concepts are what drive our design directions Inside the Word Map is also Visual Cues to Visual Elements as well as Colors and Other related elements The word map splits into Concept Visual Elements Shapes, Colors, Typefaces Colors Research is a part of this depending on how much you know about your topic Here's a time lapse of my word map for "A Moveable Feast" by Ernest Hemingway http://www.brandisea.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/IMG_5891.mp4 Re: the concept: IF you don't have a guiding idea, you're going to be lost. You need some sort of callback point to why you're doing everything. Michelle: Have you ever seen somebody work without a solid concept in mind?Brandi: Yeah, all the time.Michelle: It's rough.       This Month’s book: We are doing book reviews on the podcast every month! If you would like to read along, THIS MONTH, we've been reading, Called to Create, by Jordan Raynor. Want to support us? Go to Patreon and help support our podcast!   Find us on all forms of social media via @BrandiSea on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and you can email us any burning questions you want Brandi to answer on an episode at brandi@brandisea.com.   THANK YOU to the ultra-talented  Vesperteen (Colin Rigsby) for letting us use his (“Shatter in The Night”) track in every episode of Design Speaks. [clear-line][clear-line] TRANSCRIPTION: Intro dude: 00:01 Welcome to Design Speaks. This lovely podcast is brought to you by a graphic design geek and a regular human being. AKA a non-designer. We're here to chat about music, pop culture, cool places or basically whatever we feel is relevant. Brandi: 00:16 Hey guys, I'm Brandi Sea. Michelle: 00:17 And Michelle. Brandi: 00:18 And you're listening to episode 84 of Design Speaks. Michelle: 00:21 On today's episode. We are continuing our series on process. Brandi's process specifically and today we're going to be covering the topic of word maps. Mind maps, mind searches, what are they? Brandi: 00:35 Word maps. I used to call them mind maps. I started calling them ward maps because it makes more sense to how I do them. Michelle: 00:43 Because they're words. Brandi: 00:44 Yeah. Because they're words. Michelle: 00:45 Their map of words. Brandi: 00:45 Um, I have, I have this whole thing of, of using words first. So small recap on what we talked about last week. Steps one and two are the client meeting and the design brief. So where we're gonna start today is taking you taking those words from question 12, which was the adjectives that your client gives you to describe their, their product or their service. And so, um, I'm going to try really hard. This is a this is a really visual thing. Michelle: 01:16 Which is funny because it's words. Brandi: 01:17 Right? So this is both. So if you know anything about what a mind map is or like, um, like free writing and stuff like that, you basically start with one word or phrase or something at the center of a page and it's either circled or in a square and you basically just let your mind go and you make connections. So design is all about making connections. So we might even have to split this part into two because there's just too much. And this is the most important part of my process without this part...

Start the new year off on the right foot, or the left foot. Incorporating wellness into your everyday workplace routine can be as easy as putting on your socks! ALPS Risk Manager Mark Bassingthwaighte chats with VIM & VIGR founder Michelle Huie who creates stylish compression socks by pairing personal expression with wellness — a perfect match for business professionals. Transcript: MARK: Hello. This is Mark Bassingthwaite, the Risk Manager with ALPS, and welcome to another podcast of ALPS in brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. And I am very excited about our guest today. I have with me Michelle Huie, and she is with a company here in Missoula known as VIM & VIGR and I'll explain to all of you in a moment why I would like to chat, I'm looking forward to chatting here with Michelle. But before we jump into our discussion, Michelle, can we take a few moments just to have you share a little bit about yourself. MICHELLE HUIE: Yeah. Absolutely. I'm Michelle Huie. I'm the founder of VIM & VIGR, stylish compression leg wear. We make stylish compression socks, compression tights, and we've been in the market for about five years. We're also based out of beautiful Missoula, Montana. Not quite in the Florence building, but beautiful Missoula, Montana. MARK: Yes. MICHELLE: And we have about 20 employees, all based here. I started the company five years ago, mainly as a personal need for myself. MARK: Yes. MICHELLE: I had a job where I was sitting for long periods of time. I'm sure we can relate to that. MARK: I can relate. MICHELLE: Yeah. And I just noticed that my legs were really tired and achy, which kind of was counterintuitive to me. I was like, "why am I tired? I've been sitting all day." MARK: Right. Right. MICHELLE: I've expended zero energy. I shouldn't be tired. And when I talked to a really good friend of mine who's a physical therapist, he said, "Oh, you should be wearing compression socks. Actually, most people have a job where they sit or stand for long periods of time and they should be wearing compression socks." So I did what most people would do, is I went online and I looked to see what options were out there for myself as a consumer. And the only thing I could find were really medical-looking or like weird— MARK: Yes. That's my impression. MICHELLE: Yeah. Like I'm thinking about my 98-year-old grandmother— MARK: Exactly. MICHELLE: Wearing these nude ... Like whose skin color looks like that? No one's. MARK: I know. I know. MICHELLE: And so I thought to myself, that's pretty much what I could find or athletic compression socks that were neon yellow or neon pink. And I said, you know, nothing really fit my professional lifestyle. MARK: Right. MICHELLE: And a light bulb went off and I said, "If I have a personal need for stylish, high-quality compression socks, I'm sure that there are a lot of people who could benefit as well. And so I really started the company mainly as kind of a workplace wellness product for myself. MARK: And that's my interest in visiting with you today. For our listeners, I assume most of you are aware, there's a real movement within the profession in the United States to focus on wellness. There's some interesting studies that have come out, really looking at depression and burnout and stress. Lawyers work long hours. MICHELLE: Right. MARK: And they have very ... Most people that are working with lawyers, are not involved in happy, uplifting times in their lives. MICHELLE: Right. Absolutely. MARK: This is a divorce, it's a bankruptcy. MICHELLE: Yeah. MARK: Those kinds of things. And there just is a lot of stress. And I'd be interested in your comments about the importance of wellness in ... MICHELLE: Yeah, I think that people, they don't think about wellness in that context. They don't think that somebody like a lawyer would have a physically demanding job. They may think like a nurse or a physical therapist or firefighter. They look at them as having physically demanding jobs. But in reality, a lot of people do, especially if you mix in high stress, poor eating. MARK: Yes. MICHELLE: Sedentary. They say sitting is a new smoking, right? That's the expression of sitting. MARK: Right. Yes. I have heard that. MICHELLE: And that's why a lot of times, I'm sure a lot of lawyers even listening now have those sit/stand desks, which is much better for you than sitting all day. And frankly, it is very, very stressful and there's a huge movement of kind of to prevent burnout. You have, for example, Ariana Huffington started her company, Thrive Global, and she wrote this book called "The Sleep Revolution," specifically to talk about preventing burnout in the workplace, because so much of it is ... It's obviously, there's physical, there's emotional, there's mental components of being healthy in the workplace. And frankly, you spend a lot more time working than you do doing anything else. MARK: That's true. Yeah. MICHELLE: And I think people kind of forget about how to stay healthy in the workplace and it's a real problem. And I think it definitely leads to a lot of burnout. MARK: And you've gone in this direction of compression socks, which I just, I love this. And for those of you listening, again, the company's VIM & VIGR. And I assume that the website is... MICHELLE: Yeah, VIM & VIGR. V-I-M V-I-G-R.com. Yeah. MARK: And I did have the opportunity to take a look at some of the product and it's great stuff. MICHELLE: Yeah. MARK: Like you were saying, it is not these neon things and the things grandma in her 90s wore. MICHELLE: Right. MARK: But how do you see compression socks, just as an example, really impacting ... Why is this important? MICHELLE: Yeah. I think that a lot of times, the perception of compression socks is for someone who is sick or elderly. MARK: Right. Yeah. MICHELLE: But there's actually a lot of preventative components of compression socks. Compression socks is technically a medical device. It helps increase circulation. It prevents ... It energizes legs. It prevents swelling. It does all these things that I call an occupational hazard of sitting or standing. Right? MARK: Yeah. MICHELLE: Sometimes you can't help but have a job where you're sitting or standing for long periods of time. And I call it the occupational hazard, right? And compression socks can really help with that. I look at launching VIM & VIGR as really beyond a compression sock, which it is, we provide that. It's all medical-grade, it's all listed by the FDA. MARK: Yes. Right. MICHELLE: But we're really focused on education and transitioning to more of that workplace wellness. If you look at our number one customer, our customers range from nurses who work double 12-hour shifts, right? MARK: Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot of time on their feet. MICHELLE: A lot of time on your feet. MARK: Yes. Yes. MICHELLE: Teachers who are on their feet for long periods of time. People who are sitting at a desk for long periods, as well. Traveling is huge. MARK: Yeah, airplanes. Right. MICHELLE: Airplane. They call them economy class syndrome, right? MARK: Oh, really? MICHELLE: Yeah, where you have DBTs, [crosstalk 00:06:23] MARK: Okay, sure. MICHELLE: It's like blood clots can happen when you're in confined spaces like that, like an airplane. And so these are real conditions that can happen that could really affect physically how you feel. And so what VIM & VIGR has really morphed into and become is, not just a compression sock company, but more of this everyday wellness company. And it's so amazing that you can just put on a pair of compression socks and do a little something for your health. Obviously, we're not saying to wear compression socks and replace exercising and eating healthy. MARK: It's not the miracle cure. MICHELLE: It's not a miracle cure, but it's just one added tool. MARK: Yes. Yeah. MICHELLE: In your armamentarium to kind of be healthier in the workplace. MARK: Yeah. I love it. I love it. Well, thank you so much for taking a little time to visit with us. And again, folks, I encourage you ... Oh boy, just ... And I really respect and admire the commitment to wellness and working with businesses of all shapes and sizes on the importance of wellness. But I also just love where you're starting with this product. It is a great ... I took a look at the site as I shared. I showed my wife, she's a physician. And her response was, "I need to show my patients these things." MICHELLE: Right. MARK: Because, yeah, again, it meets a need that's ... It allows us to be healthy and work on wellness in a way we can feel good about in terms of— MICHELLE: Yeah. And not guilt-ridden, right? MARK: Yes. MICHELLE: Sometimes with ... It's all the things you're not doing. Even the Fitbits, it's like, "Oh, you're not walking enough steps." MARK: Yeah. I haven't walked across the Serengeti yet. MICHELLE: Right. Right. Right. Yeah. MARK: Yeah. MICHELLE: And it's not supposed to be that. It's just supposed to be ... I like to look at these little things that you're going to do normal ... You're going to put on a pair of socks. Right? MARK: Yes. MICHELLE: Normally. Especially in Montana, for sure. But why not put on a pair of compression socks that can actually help you a little bit more? MARK: I agree. And I'm going to let that be the last word. Folks, I hope you found today's discussion interesting and of value. And if, at some point, you have a topic of interest you'd like to hear us chat about or a business or individual you'd like us to contact and do a podcast with, please don't hesitate to reach out to me here at ALPS. And me email address is mbass@alpsnet.com. Michelle, thank you again. It's been a pleasure. Folks, thanks for listening. Good-bye.

A letter from our founder, Michelle:“It's the end of another year, my peers. A time to reflect on all that was the year of 2018 and appreciate how far we've come and how much we've all grown this year. In today's episode, I share with you all how I've grown this year and look back on the person who I was heading into 2018." See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Have you considered investing in residential assisted living (RAL)? Do you see it as an opportunity to make money in the real estate space? Did you know that there’s several ways to make additional revenue in this area? Then, you’ll need an attorney who specializes in RAL because of associated liabilities. You could be sued several different ways because you're taking care of other individuals. In this episode, Clint Coons of Anderson Business Advisors talks to Michelle Pinkowski, an attorney, about RAL. Michelle actually developed a system for finding the perfect location for an assisted living residence and strives to impress upon people the importance of asset protection. She’s a big proponent of having enough insurance to handle risks. Highlights/Topics: Unlike flipping and fixing single- and multi-family homes, real estate investors need to understand the underlying land use for RAL Fair Housing Act: When looking for a location, identify if it’ll be assisted living for seniors, disabled adults, or recovering addicts; each group has protected disabled populations State regulations govern limits on the care you can provide, but the state licensing agency doesn't have the jurisdiction or power to make certain determinations Besides licensing statutes, you need to understand zoning regulations that define how many people you can put in your RAL home Each entity (HOA, county, city, etc.) has its own rules; don’t get discouraged/give up because one entity tells you that you can do something, but another says you can’t Don't find a house first; find the path of least resistance - the locale that will be the best place to start your search Educate yourself and do research before calling a planning department - may or may not tell you the correct information; know what questions to ask to avoid getting bad advice People open RAL homes because they want to help people and make a difference; they don't want to be litigating cases in court or facing zoning enforcement actions Utilize a professional who specializes in RAL to overcome obstacles and get your house open, up and running, and making some money off it Resources Michelle Pinkowski Zoning Hacks to Get You Started FAST Course Michelle Pinkowski’s Phone Number: 303-803-4309 Gene Guarino’s Residential Assisted Living Academy Fair Housing Act Clint Coons Anderson Advisors Tax and Asset Protection Event Full Episode Transcript: Clint: Hi, everyone. It's Clint Coons here with Anderson Business Advisors and, in this segment, what I'm going to do is talk about residential assisted living. I know a lot of you out there have seen this as an opportunity to make money in the real estate space, and I can tell you that there's just something different that everyone should be aware of when it comes to investing because there are ways to make additional revenue. As you know, I worked with Gene Guarino. He's an expert in Residential Assisted Living. Now, he was recently down at one of his conferences. He does an annual conference each year for Residential Assisted Living, and I met an individual there, a fellow attorney, that really piqued my interest because, when it comes to this space, at Anderson, we do the structuring. We set up the corporations, the LLCs, teach you how to structure your business the right way to reduce taxes and liability. One area where I think a lot of people still need help is understanding how to actually run the business, understanding that your state may have certain rules, regulations, the counties that you're getting into, the cities, and how do you navigate those because we can teach you how to go out there and set a business up, how to make money doing the business but, at the end of the day, something that I think, at Anderson, we always tell you – you always need someone who understands your particular type of business, that is, what you're getting into. You need to have an attorney that specializes in that area, especially with Residential Assisted Living because there's a lot of liabilities out there. If you've heard me talk about it before, you know that you can be sued 10 different ways and none of which you actually caused yourself but still brings liability to you because you have people working for you. You're taking care of other individuals and so that puts you in a special relationship to them. We're not going to cover that on this call today, this podcast. What I want to do is I want to bring on a special guest. This is the individual I met down there. Her name is Michelle Pinkowski and, Michelle, why don't you just introduce yourself? Michelle: Hi, Clint. Thanks for having me on. Clint: It's great. Thanks for being on. You came up to me when we were down there and we just briefly chatted. I saw a great opportunity to bring you on and get this information out to our students because we have so many clients that are seeing this as an opportunity. I want them to know that they have resources, and you're one of those resources that I feel that would be definitely beneficial to people. Why don't you tell everyone a little bit about yourself? Michelle: Thanks for that. I appreciate that. I was a practicing trial attorney for many years, and I'm a recovering trial lawyer now, how I like to say it, but I've represented–I've worked on a lot of different cases but, before I essentially retired from that practice, I spent my time representing real estate developers. It was super interesting because they had lots of different problems from construction defect cases, to people who were injured in their building, to being sued in a class action onto the ADA by disabled people, to fights with their insurance carriers, things like that. I really fell in love we that kind of law, construction law, but then made a change and started working internationally and working with countries on the policy level to develop construction permitting systems and spatial planning systems. It was kind of interesting, actually. We lived overseas for about 10 years and wanted to make our way back home and started to look at ways to re-enter. I had just finished helping a country set up their spatial planning system and teaching people about zoning and things like that, and that's when we found out about residential assisted living. We thought, "Wow, this kind of investment combines our love of the built environment in real estate with also being in a helping kind of a situation." We started researching, and that's when I really developed my system for finding the perfect location for the Assisted Living Residence. In getting to know more people in the industry, I learned that this is something that I can add value to people with because a lot of people, real estate investors, when you're looking for a single-family home to fix and flip or maybe you're doing multi-family, you don't really have to understand the underlying land use. With Residential Assisted Living, you really do have to understand that. I developed a system and started working with people in that environment, and then our practice grew once we came back to Colorado. Now, we have a whole practice area focusing on assisted living. Clint: Wow. Just what you brought up there about how you got started into real estate, you went through the litany of things that I always cover about how many different ways you can be sued. You can actually go out and teach at one of our events, it sounds like, to impress upon people the importance of asset protection. Just as an aside, how many of those individuals that you represented had structures in place? Did they all have LLCs, corporations and stuff to protect themselves or were many of them just individuals that owned the properties in their own name? Michelle: I've represented really big developers so they had a lot of structures in place and they also had a lot of insurance in place, which I'm a big proponent of, and insurance to handle the risks. Clint: Good. You started in then RAL so you came back and you saw the opportunity there. You talked about working with people, you live in Colorado. That's where your practice is. Can you operate in all 50 states? Can you help someone who is thinking about setting up an RAL, say, in Arizona or they want to set one up in Florida? Michelle: Yeah, absolutely, because a lot of the things I advise on is at the federal level, the Federal Fair Housing Act, and so we can work with clients and basically provide consulting services. Then, occasionally, we do need to work with local counsel if we need somebody on the ground or to interact with the cities or hopefully not the courts but sometimes the courts. Clint: When you're bringing up the Federal Fair Housing Act, what are some of the key points you think that people would need to know if they're getting involved in RAL that they should, of course, be aware of when it comes to that? Michelle: The first thing is to know that when someone is operating in assisted living, whether it's assisted living for seniors or disabled adults or recovering addicts because–sober homes, that's a type of group home–all of those groups are considered to have populations that are disabled, and that's what the protection is under the Fair Housing Act, is it's to protect against housing discrimination pertaining to different classes of people, including disabled people. It doesn't protect people just because they're older, but they have to be disabled, which anybody who is looking at assisted living when they're older certainly meets the definition of disabled. Clint: Okay, let's run that down a little bit. How would that apply to me? Let's say I set up my RAL and I have a corporation where I'm running the business through and I'm leasing the property. Maybe it's from a third party or maybe I own the property and my own limited liability company. Here's my corporation. I'm doing the advertising. I'm trying to bring people in. If someone came up to me, are you saying that, if I decided not to rent them the space because I looked at that individual–I thought, "Wow, there's going to be a lot of work and it's going to cost me a lot to assist them," whereas I can bring in the other guy who's not in a wheelchair, looks pretty healthy and it's not going to take as much time to make sure that they have a comfortable environment, could that be a potential threat for someone then? Michelle: Potentially. I think that's going to be governed by the state's regulations more than the federal Fair Housing Act because state regulations will kind of govern the limits of the care that you can provide. Really, the Fair Housing Act comes into play long before you ever get to that point. It really comes in when you're looking for the location for your group home at the beginning. Somebody will get interested in a space. They'll come to you. They'll say, "Clint, hey, set up my structure so that I have good asset protection," so they've got all their corporate structures set up, they've gone to Gene Guarino's class, so they're excited about how to operate the business, and then they go out and they start looking for property. Sometimes, people get confused because they'll read their state health department regulation, for example, and they'll read the state licensing statute that talks about, "You're a small facility if you're 16 and under," and they'll think, "Hey, that means all I have to do is find a single-family home and I can put 16 people in there because the licensing statute says that," not understanding that that's not–the state licensing agency doesn't have the jurisdiction or the power to make that determination. That's a whole different area, so what they really need to look at, in addition to the licensing statute, is the zoning regulations for the areas that they're interested in because it's the local jurisdictions like the city, or the town, or the township, or back east they are called parishes, all the different names of local jurisdictions, sometimes even counties. They have their own zoning regulations, and every zoning code is going to be a little bit different, and that's where it's defined how many people you can put in your home. You have to be able to find and understand that. That's where I really have been helping people because they get really excited and then they go out and start trying to find a house. It's a little bit overwhelming to confront all of the codes for all these different jurisdictions. In your area, you probably have a lot of different jurisdictions. In the Denver area, we have a ton of different jurisdictions. Clint: Everyone's a little bit different. Michelle: Yeah, everyone has their own zoning regulation. Clint: What I'm hearing is if I had a single-family home–and let's assume that I had six bedrooms–and I'm contemplating people 6, 8, or maybe 12 people in to that house, I would have to know whether or not I can actually accommodate 12 people based upon the city or the county in which that house is located, because even if the state law states that you can have up to 16 people on a property, the city is going to determine or the county will also determine whether or not you can have X amount of people. Michelle: In that particular location, yeah. Some places are a little bit backwards. Some don't recognize issues at all in residential areas and they'll say, "Oh, if it's assisted living or if it's a nursing home, you need to be in the business district," or some even say the industrial district, which is ridiculous. That's where the Fair Housing Act comes in, because the Fair House Act says, congress has determined that it's the policy of the United States to prevent housing discrimination based on certain categories, including disabilities, which means that people who are not disabled can live in a residential neighborhood and people who are disabled also have to have the opportunity to live there. Clint: Got it. I know that's one of those things. I remember, as an I aside, when I moved into my house–I don't know when it was, 20 years ago–I had a satellite dish, one with a direct TV, and they had in the CC&Rs that you can't have a satellite dish there, but they didn't understand that federal law trumps whatever CCR is. They tried to get me to remove it. I remember I went to the first meeting and I said, "First off, I'm an attorney. Do you really want to pick this fight with me? Second of all, you do not preempt federal law. Federal law states that I can have a satellite dish." I can see how this comes up because these people who sit and make these regulations for the county, they don't understand federal law and they're actually violating it many times. Don't be discouraged, I guess, is what you're selling people. Just because the local county tells you, you can't have it in a residential neighborhood, federal law is going to preempt that and allow you to have that facility there. Michelle: Yeah, that's exactly right, and it's not just the city or the county, it's also deed restrictions or HOAs like you mentioned. Clint: Yeah, exactly. Tell us about that. Michelle: It's the same principle. A lot of times, HOAs will like to have in their covenant something that says, "You can't have any business or commercial use," and they'll say, "Well, residential assisted living is a business use," but, in fact, there's a lot of case law out there where the courts have determined that it's actually a residential use because it is a way for disabled people to be able to live in a residential environment. To enable them to do that, yes, they have to have the supporting infrastructure like the caregivers and whatnot and there has to be enough people allowed in a home to make that financially viable. An HOA can't prohibit any kind of group home for the disabled, including residential assisted living. They'll try sometimes, and that's where it helps to be able to say, "Well, I'm an attorney." We have some advantage to be able to start with that statement, but I'm trying to work with people also to enable them even if they're not attorneys to be able to go in and have the firepower to make that argument. Clint: Okay, let's say this: Think about buying a property in an area that's subject to an HOA. Now, what I'm hearing from you is that the HOA is not going to preempt federal law so federal law is going to allow me to put people into that property. However, what happens if the HOA has limitation on how many vehicles you could have? They're going to say, "All right, well, fine, you can have six people in there but you can't have any vehicles in the driveway." Could they kick me on that one? Michelle: Yeah, you could still be protected by the Fair Housing Act because Fair Housing Act says that they have to make reasonable accommodations to any rules or policies to enable disabled people to live in the home, so if it's reasonable and necessary, to argue, "Look, having two cars in the driveway is not unreasonable. It doesn't change the character of the neighborhood and it's necessary to allow us to operate this group home," then they need to allow it. Clint: Okay, so there's a way around it, then? Because I can see them trying to prevent you a second way. Have you ever had–say that situation came up. What would you do? If I was in the RAL space and I was looking to put a home in and I get this pushback from someone at the HOA and I'm in, say, California. Would I then just contact you and you could send a letter off? How would you approach that? Michelle: We have to look at it state by state and what their rules of professional ethics are but, yes, we prepare a letter, either that I can send or I work with your local lawyer to send it, and it helps that I prepare the letter because I understand the Fair Housing Act. People won't have to pay to get their local lawyer up to speed, so I can work with the local lawyer and, as long as they're comfortable with my work, then they send it on their letter again. Clint: Yeah, that's really important, that people understand that because if they go to their local guy, he's not going to understand this to the level you do. That's why I brought you on, because, at Anderson, we have our platinum program where clients can call in and we don't charge them to answer their business-related questions if they're a platinum client. We get a lot of questions from RAL members about the topics that we're discussing, and that's just not our wheelhouse. Associating with someone like you is important, I think, for anybody that's looking to do this just because they're going to then be able to tap into that resource. Now, of course, it doesn't come for free but the idea here is that now you're dealing with someone who understands it and, if you do have an issue, they can go and put their local guy who doesn't necessarily understand it–because I know where my limitations are, and they should, too–and then, collectively, the two of you can assist them in getting that house open, and up and running, and making some money off of it. That's good, having a team approach, and I think Gene does that a lot in the way he teaches a class. You need to have a team, people on your side that understand your business and can help you move that ball forward, as I'd like to describe it, that they'll find success. If somebody is just getting started–let's say I'm considering starting my assisted living and I'm in Texas. How should I go about it? The structuring side, leave that alone, because you know what I'm going to say: Set up business entities, because that's what we do. I'm thinking from the regulations side. Do you first go and research the county or the city for ordinances or do you go identify the house and buy the house first? Michelle: Don't go find a house first. Do not do that. I have clients who went and bought a house, thinking that they could–their pro forma is based on a certain number of residents, 12, 14 or 16, whatever, and then they go and try to pull their permit and the city says, "Wait a minute, you can only have six," and that's really disappointing. That's why you don't want to get there. I have a methodology. In fact, I've got, on my website, an online course that people can do. It's less than two hours. It doesn't cost very much. If you want to learn how to do it yourself about how to analyze the zoning regulations in your area super-fast, you can take that course, or you can call me. I can give you some hints. I'm happy to do that, or we can do the analysis for you if you don't want to do it yourself. Basically, you need to look–what I like to do–and Gene Guarino says this all the time–find the path of least resistance. You might be in a certain area, but that area will have 4, 5, 6 or 10 different jurisdictions that have their own zoning codes. You want to quickly look at those and find out where's your best place, where's your best entrance point. For example in my county where I live, I did this analysis. I tried all this out on myself, by the way, so I know it works. In our county, I did this analysis, and some places said, "Well, you can have to eight," and, keep in mind, you still have the Fair Housing Argument. If you have somebody who has it in their code with big enough numbers that you don't have to make that argument, then it's a lot easier. One place will have up to eight and another place will have maybe up to six and another has unlimited. Then, there was one that did not allow it at all in the residential zone. I love this story because it's so dramatic. You can't have group homes for elderly disabled people but, in the residential district, you can have chickens, goats and potbelly pigs but no old people. Do not bring old people here. Yes, that is a clear violation of the Fair Housing Act, but if I really wanted to get my home open and get it opened fast and get people in there, I'm not going to start in that jurisdiction because, obviously, they're backwards. You'd use this methodology to find the best entrance point and start there. Clint: That's important, what you just said there. Michelle: It is, yeah. That way, you're not surprised. The other thing I recommend to people is do your research before you call the planning department. Some realtors I've heard say, "Hey, just call the planning department and ask them what you can do with your property or the property you're interested in," and I'm like, "No, don't do that," because they may or may not tell you the right information. I had a situation where I knew exactly what the zoning code said and I knew that I could have an assisted living residence there. I called for another reason–I don't know, maybe parking, setbacks or something–and they said, "No, you can't do that here." Of course, I was able to say, "Number one, well, I am an attorney and, two, I have read the code." At least if you're not an attorney, you can say, "I've read the code and I know that I can do that." Had I done that and I didn't know what my rights were, I might have gotten discouraged and given up on a jurisdiction that was really actually very, very favorable. Clint: See, there's two things that you mentioned that I think are really important for people who are listening to this, and that is, number one, you're doing it. That's something I tell people a lot. Whenever you're going to work with a local professional or any professional, that is, and you're in a certain space, you need to make sure that they're doing exactly what you're doing because they're out there learning the issues that you're going to be facing and they're finding solutions to those problems that you come up against because it's going to affect their business just like it will yours. That, I think, is key because so many people who are not doing it don't know what questions to ask of individuals with whom they're going to be working with. As a result, many times, you get bad advice. That is so important. I think people should really understand that. The second thing you mentioned, you had something on your website for individuals that really caught my attention there that they can go to and they can get this information on what to look for as far as the zoning for whatever state they're working in, county or city. This program that you have or information, series of videos, if they wanted to take advantage of that, how do they go there? What's the website address? What would they need to do? Michelle: My law firm is Pinkowski Law and then there's a tab that says "learning center". On that is the zoning. It's called Zoning Hacks to Get You Started Fast, and it really is. Hopefully, I'm not too boring but, if I am boring, it's only an hour and 45 minutes long. It's worth it. I've had people take it recently. He's actually somebody that later turned out to be a client but he went through the course first and it's really made our interactions go so quickly because he analyzes the whole zoning code and he says, "Hey, I think that we can do this here in this zone but not in this zone." He's totally grooved in. I think it's practical information and it doesn't cost that much, so Pinkowski Law: Learning Center. Clint: One of the things we do at Anderson–and I see that you're doing the same thing–is I tell people that, "Come to one of our asset protection events first before we start working with you so then we can educate you on what it is we're going to be doing, the importance of having LLCs and corporations," and I get a lot of pushback many times from individuals. They just want to skip that step. They say, "Well, I just want you to do it for me anyway so why would I sit through this class and learn about this?" It's because you don't know the right questions to ask then if you haven't sat through the class because we're not always going to be there with you and it makes our communication between the two of us so much more efficient. I assume that sounds like what you've done for people on the RAL space. You need to get the education first, go there, learn about this and then, when they need your assistance, they can contact you and then those conversations are going to be more meaningful because both of you are speaking out of the same book, so to speak, when it comes to addressing these issues. Michelle: That's very true. I think if you're going to be in any space or do any business like real estate investing, the more competent you can be, then the more things are going to come your way. I've had some really good things come way just because, over the last year, I made it a point to study this area of law to learn. I went to Gene Guarino's three-day course and, before that, I did the online course and I went to our state administrator training course, as much as I could do to learn these things. I really encourage people to do that because, when you're competent, one, you understand it. It takes the mystery out of a lot of things, and people recognize that. People are drawn to those who are competent. You'll attract good partners, you'll attract good deals and your residents, ultimately, will understand that about you, too. Clint: The last thing you want to do is open up a space and you put in 12 people then, all of a sudden, the city comes knocking and says, "Hey, you've got to kick out eight of them because you're in violation." Michelle: Yeah, that's absolutely right. In the sober home space, group homes for recovering addicts, there is one company–I won't name them, but they would do exactly that. They were very aggressive and so they would just open up their homes, put people in them and wait until zoning enforcement knocked on their doors, and they did come knocking. There's a lot of case law out there dealing with this company, but they had a high tolerance for litigating things. I think most people who just want to open one, two, three, or even 10 Residential Assisted Livings, they want to do that because they want to help people and make a difference; they don't want to be litigating cases in court or facing zoning enforcement actions. Clint: Exactly. The way you look at it or I always often tell people is that–let's say I hire someone such as yourself for your expertise and maybe it cost me $1000 to have this information and do some strategy sessions with you, but then I'm going to be able to open my home up and I'm going to be able to get it right from the get-go because trying to litigate this afterwards–you're going to look in a rearview mirror and say, "I so wish I would have connected with the right professional ahead of time, paid that small amount of money to get this information so we're doing it right," because litigation's not cheap. I just spoke someone today who's involved in an unfortunate situation where he lost $75,000 in a joint venture deal gone bad, and he had gone to another attorney and talked to him about it and he came to me for a second opinion. We both gave him the same advice, which is, "You may want to sue him but it's going to cost you a lot of money and you're not going to win at the end of the day." It always comes back to understanding that litigation is never where you want to be unless you're this big company who has more money than they have sense and you just want to fight it. That's not what we're going to be able to do and that's not what you'd want to do because that's going to take your eye off the ball. You're here to help people to run a business, and whenever you're dealing with the county, the city, the state or litigants, it's going to detract you and it's going to have a severe impact on your business and the success and liability of that. I hope people that are listening to this take advantage of it, reach out to you, go to your website, look at that video, sign up for that so they understand the issues that they need to be aware of going into a certain area so they're not doing what you just stated, buying into a house where you can only have chickens and pigs living it but you can't have elderly people, and so they're going to know ahead of time where they should be looking so they can plan out, come up with a business plan. Is there anything else you think that the listeners need to know about when it comes to RAL and this particular issue? Michelle: I think that, just to reiterate, understand the difference between the licensing statute and local zoning regulations. That's a big thing. You'd have to know both of them, but don't get them confused. Clint: Perfect. Excellent, and you can help them with that. Again, if somebody wanted to contact you, what's your phone number? Michelle: 303-803-4309. Clint: Right, and your website again? Michelle: Pinkowski Law, and I love talking to people. Call me for free consultation because I really like gathering data from people around the country and that's kind of fun for me to see. I can help my clients better that way, too, if I know what's going on over in Louisiana, up in South Dakota or down in Texas. Then, we can compare notes and benefit everybody and hopefully raise the waters for everybody. Clint: Absolutely, and I think, just to hit on this one more time, if you're just getting started, this is a crucial step in starting your RAL business, is going and getting this type of information because it says it doesn’t have anything to do with asset protection and business planning; this is about understanding whether or not that can actually be a viable business. For those individuals, I think it's important. Also, if you've already started in this space, you may be operating as an outlaw right now, and if you don't know what the zoning requirements are and you haven't looked into it, you better get the information and just do a top-down analysis to make sure you're complying. What I would suggest you do is go to the website there, watch those videos and then, if you need some more information, get a free consultation or sign up for a consultation time with Michelle and take it from there to make sure you're doing it right for your business. With that, I want to thank you for being on here with me today. I think everybody's going to listen to this. They're going to go, "Wow, there's so much more about Residential Assisted Living than I knew when it comes to starting that business up," and you're going to be a great resource for us so I want to thank you for coming on this podcast with me and taking the time to explain it to all of the listeners. Michelle: Thanks very much for having me. I enjoyed it. Clint: All right. I'll look forward talking to you soon.  

We are at the tail end of our busiest season, and we need to talk about it! We haven't had time to just shoot the shit lately on the podcast, so that's what we're doing on this one. Except with some jotted down notes and a basic outline in mind. Because we love you and we want you to know what's in our brains! Tips, tricks, pet peeves and a good ‘ol debriefing between your favorite wedding planner BFFs. Enjoy! Big Takeaways Lil tip: If you are doing a card box or bird cage or basket or whatever to hold cards and gifts from guests, put a card in there before the day begins. If you have a guestbook that isn't totally obviously a guestbook - then have some of your ‘maids sign it first, and then open it to that page. Sometimes guests don't want to be the first to do something at a wedding. An ‘example' is a nice indicator that it's ok and expected! Pet peeve: Signage. We've been wedding planners for a long time. We have seen a whole lot of unnecessary signage in our day. Ease up on the signage! If there's a tower of cupcakes on a table, you don't have to put a cute frame or chalkboard telling everyone there is a tower of cupcakes there! We can all see it! They look delicious! Lesson Learned: If you have a sweets table out for display before the cake is cut, people may (will) help themselves. Which is fine! Unless you don't want that. Remember - we've said it before and we'll say it again: People at weddings love cake. So if you have cake balls or cupcakes out...they may grab them before dinner starts. Also - if you are doing cake for dessert - order enough for every guest! Don't doubt us on this one, we've seen it get ugly when there isn't enough cake to go around. If it's a BYOB bar (you, the client are bringing the booze, not your guests) - better safe than sorry! Over-order so you don't run out. And make sure your caterer has ordered enough corresponding glassware for the booze you're bringing. Remember - people drink more than usual at a wedding. We talk a lot about catering and staffing on this one - examples of what NOT to do. Bottom line - the caterer and the wedding planner work very closely. Both parties need to be on board. Hire carefully! And don't skimp on staffing. Oh! And always go with a double-sided buffet if you can! Quick tip! If a dancefloor is being put outside, make sure you have someone to sweep it off before the wedding starts. This is a big one: if you have a plan for an outside event - no matter what, you need a plan B in case the weather is horrible. No one can control weather! Having a plan B is crucial. But that's not the end of it. You need to NOT HATE your plan B. If the plan B at the venue sucks, try to find another venue! Don't forget about our Patreon! It's the very best way for you to tell us you love us. :) Links we referenced www.modernloveevent.com/bigwedding Quotes “It just feels super damn good to help people. And to put out there what's in our heads!” - Michelle, on how it's not about the money (but we do need money, so become a patron please) “This is the kind of stuff that we would share with each other. Like, wedding planner real talk. We're uploading/downloading our thoughts and experiences from the last few events we've done.” - Christy “I always schedule Last Call at least 30 minutes before the last dance. And that's something that should be set on your timeline and that the catering company is aware of and that the DJ can announce.” - Christy “The caterer is the hub of the wedding.” - Michelle “It was wonderful because the two grooms were wonderful. And they knew that this wedding ceremony was going to be extremely personal and special no matter if we had to do it in a broom closet.” - Christy “We like to talk about these weddings when they're fresh on our minds. It's nice to do a recap!” - Michelle Get In Touch EMAIL: thebigweddingplanningpodcast@gmail.com FACEBOOK: @TBWPpodcast INSTAGRAM: @thebigweddingplanningpodcast BE SURE TO USE THE HASHTAG: #planthatwedding TWITTER: @TBWPpodcast PHONE: (415) 723-1625 Leave us a message and you might hear your voice on the show! PATREON: www.patreon.com/thebigweddingplanningpodcast

Leaders’ operating rhythms or schedules rarely make time to just sit and listen to their employees. By listening, it aligns leaders with employees to increase the bottom line. It makes all the difference in the world. A team listening environment correlates with financial performance and employee satisfaction, productivity, and retention. Michelle K. Johnston, a university professor in the United States, is an expert in leadership communication. She makes the connection between leaders listening and the positive impact on financial performance. She describes the importance of pausing and silence to understand what you are thinking, and the continuous effort to learn from and listen to your staff. People want to know they are being heard and that their thoughts become part of the leadership team’s action plan.Michelle explains the role of engagement surveys and the differences between qualitative and quantitative feedback. Tune in to Learn Educational role models who influenced and taught Michelle how to listen How your teammates make you feel matters Become comfortable with silence and pauses; be patient and reassuring Team Listening Environment (TLE) Scale and financial performance Employees who felt listened to, valued, and understood had higher financial performance Tell Me/Listening Tour: Learn what’s keeping employees from high performance, making money, etc. Listen to employees and make meaningful connections, have someone else take notes and collect data Employees feeling heard in the moment and subsequently Go back to the beginning to be self-aware and know how to listen and tell stories Provide opportunities and exercises to find and create meaningful connections Elephant in the Room: What’s not being said; create a safe environment and make a difference Quantitative Feedback: Been there, done that. Nothing changes. Qualitative feedback should be utilized and makes a difference. Links and Resources: Michelle Johnston Larry Barker Quotes: What I have found, it’s the qualitative feedback that makes all the difference in the world. - Michelle It’s ok to pause and to be comfortable with silence and collecting your thoughts. -  Michelle Want to create a big impact? Subscribe to the Deep Listening podcast and never miss an episode. If you have any suggestions, questions or recommendations for people to interview for podcast please email podcast@oscartrimboli.com.

We're so stoked to have newlyweds on the podcast! You may remember Dre from our awesome ‘Groom Interrupted' episode #40 (link below). He talked about what wedding planning was like from a groom's perspective and gushed about how in love he is with his lovely bride, Andrea. Now we talk with both of them about 1 month after their wedding. Christy was a guest and we had lots of questions about their experience - what they loved, what surprised them, what decision they are SO glad they made, and what challenges they faced. Andrea gets emotional, the cat gets stuck in a bag, and we all have a grand ol' time catching up and breaking down one of the happiest moments of their lives. Big Takeaways The officiant in Dre and Andrea's wedding was Andrea's dear friend and she was a HUGE part of their wedding ceremony success. (Christy can attest, it was a VERY successful ceremony.) Andrea and Dre appreciated every minute their friend spent researching and crafting the ceremony script. It was unique and personal and heartfelt. Picking the right friend to be your officiant is a very big decision - and Dre and Andrea made the right one! The ceremony script is extremely important. Don't let it get lost in the mix of details and logistics and planning! Andrea talked a lot (through tears) about the priority she placed on being as present as possible on the wedding day. They tried to do as much work as possible planning the wedding and then they both let go and let the show go on, as Dre described. Remember to take a breath before you walk down the aisle. Take it all in. You're always going to remember the moment before you walk down the aisle. Dre and Andrea said the best decision they made - other than marrying each other - was hiring an awesome videographer. Their highlight video was available almost immediately and they loved being able to share it with friends and family. Capturing the vows, ceremony readings, and toasts was huge, and those moments would not have been documented as thoroughly with photography only. Videography is often something that couples decide they can't afford, and it sinks to the bottom of the priority list - check out this couple's reasoning for hiring one, and maybe reconsider your decision to skip videography. Curating the guestlist was tough for Andrea and Dre - they passed on some great advice: Choose people that know both of you, or know you as a couple. We agree. If you have a B list and it's time to move people from the B over to the A...think about the people that know you and your fiance together. Sharing responsibility in wedding planning...be deliberate and detailed if you are the ‘main' wedding planning partner. This advice is straight from a type A bride, Andrea. Ceremony Readers: If you can pick someone that is a performer, do it! Andrea and Dre had a groomsman do a reading during the ceremony (Poem, by Allen Ginsberg) and he did such a wonderful job. No surprise, he's a classically trained actor. It was a memorable moment in a memorable ceremony. Our lovely couple didn't have a DJ, and it was fine! The music was great, because Dre and Andrea spent a lot of time and thought putting together a killer playlist on Spotify. We're sharing their playlist in the link below! Links we referenced Dre's first episode on our show The Videographer Dre and Andrea hired and LOVE Dre and Andrea's highlight video Their Spotify wedding playlist (If you have a Spotify account.) Quotes “You sound wasted.” “Oh. Crap.” - Michelle and Christy, on the perils of recording late at night! “I made a pact with myself before I walked...to be present. Be as present as possible. Remember this.” - Andrea, on centering herself on her wedding day “Even though it was a big wedding, that moment made it feel so intimate. Like a dinner party...it felt like, WE are in this.” - Andrea on her wedding ceremony “If you're gonna give your husband two options, make sure you like them both.” - Christy, summing up marriage “We weren't sure if we were going to hire a videographer or not and it ended up being the best decision we made.” - Dre “Drones are the shit right now in wedding videography.” - Michelle “It's an added cost, for sure. But it's worth it to do your homework and find someone that's really good. It's the difference between seeing a blockbuster movie and a crappy student film.” - Dre, on the virtues of a videographer “Both of you had a really palpable joy about marrying each other.” - Christy, to the lovely bride and groom Get In Touch Let us know if you have any questions you need answered on the show or if you want to share your own wedding planning experiences! TWITTER: @TBWPpodcast EMAIL: thebigweddingplanningpodcast@gmail.com

Here at The Big Wedding Planning Podcast, we want to take a little step back. A deep breath. And talk about perspective. We know wedding planning is fun and all encompassing and, at times, very stressful. We talk about weddings on the podcast and we hope we make your planning experience easier and more interesting. We hope we give you permission to DO YOU, and to truly take in the whole experience. But we want to also acknowledge that life doesn't stop just because your wedding is coming up. We realize that you may be going through other BIG life events at the same time you plan your big day. So in today's episode, we just want to take the time to consider the big picture. Big Takeaways You may be dealing with something really hard, or complicated, or super celebratory while you plan your wedding...and to that end, we suggest taking care of yourself and your needs. This is easier said than done. We get it. So if you need a reminder to take the time and love yourself, and work it out, just listen to this episode again! And maybe consider a therapist and meditation. Self care is of the utmost importance! Reversely, while you are blissfully planning your wedding and living in perfect wedding planning land, someone you love may be going through something not as awesome. So try to be sensitive to that. Ask questions! Don't forget to diversify your conversation points. No one wants to hear about your wedding allllllll the time, trust us. Big News Michelle's sister just got engaged! In Paris! Congratulations! We can't wait to dish about it...when your sister is a wedding planner...a blessing or a curse? A blessing, we say! More big news! We are teasing you in this episode because we're going to have an amazing guest on the podcast soon. Stay tuned! Links we referenced Our itunes reviews! Hey! We are planners for hire! Michelle, Allure Consulting Christy Matthews Events Quotes “It's hard for someone to listen to someone else talk about their wedding all day long when you are going through a divorce.” “It's also boring.” - Christy and Michelle “It's worth noting that wedding planning is not the end all be all...it's a party.” - Christy, not to minimize it! “Life doesn't stop just because you are planning your wedding.” - Christy, and maybe the succinct summary of this episode “There's this date coming that you're so looking forward to... but it's still so important that you don't let it be all consuming and you're taking the time to appreciate the world around you. Appreciate the people around you...talk about something other than weddings.” - Michelle, encouraging you to practice mindfulness “We don't want to be insensitive to those of you who are also dealing with other things. So we want you to hear us when we say, people care.” - Christy, noted Get In Touch Let us know if you have any questions you need answered on the show or if you want to share your own wedding planning experiences! TWITTER: @TBWPpodcast EMAIL: thebigweddingplanningpodcast@gmail.com

Listen to the witty banter of Cheryl Kaye and her guest Michelle Fern as they discuss the difference between cats and dogs and how to teach fur kids to behave when guests visit. They are always a lot of laughs - don't miss this episode! Questions or Comments? Email Cheryl at cheryl@petliferadio.com More details on this episode MP3 Podcast - Cheryl and Michelle – It’s Training Cats and Dogs on Pet Life Radio

So….who is supposed to give a toast at your wedding? What are the rules? Are there rules? In this episode, Christy and Michelle discuss the toasts, which by the way is Christy's very favorite part of a wedding. #maketoastsgreatagain Click HERE to become a premium subscriber and unlock all of the amazingness:       Ad-free, full length episodes      The TBWPP Wedding Planning Resource Center with  Access to 6 mini courses of The Big Wedding Planning Master Class  Wedding Planning Templates and Tools Big Takeaways Typically, you have a welcome toast or blessing. Then, sometime during dinner, the Best Man and Maid of Honor give toasts. At cake cutting, the couple themselves might want to give a toast to say thank you to their guests. But...as always, we emphasize that ‘typical' might not be for you! -A new trend with gay weddings is a toast during the ceremony. So fun! -Remember - it's a toast, not a roast! Oh, and 5 minutes is a looooong time to talk. -If there is someone that you definitely DON'T want to give a toast at your wedding, make sure you tell your planner, or if you don't have a planner, tell your DJ or emcee to be vigilant with the mic. -People can toast with whatever they are drinking. Champagne is nice, but not a total necessity. Links we referenced We didn't Quotes “I have a confession to make. I eat a LOT of fast food. I probably have fast food -- my ears are burning because I am so filled with shame -- 4-5 times a week.” - Christy. Confessing her fast food addiction to Michelle (It took us a while to get around to actually talking about toasts. We were catching up!) “When else in your life are you going to be in a room where people are going to stand up and tell you how much they love you? Your funeral. That's it. ...I'm of the mind that the more people that want to toast, the better. Let's just figure out the best way to time it all out.” - Christy. We told you she LOVES toasts! “Good rule of thumb. Whoever is hosting the event - they are the ones that give the welcome toast.” - Michelle. See, sometimes we have easy-peasy real-world advice! Get In Touch The Big Wedding Planning Podcast is… Hosted and produced by Michelle Martinez  Music by Steph Altman of Mophonics  On Instagram @thebigweddingplanningpodcast and be sure to use #planthatwedding when posting, so you can get our attention! Easy to get in touch with. Email us at hello@thebigweddingplanningpodcast.com or Call and leave a message at 415-723-1625 and you might hear your voice on an episode Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So….who is supposed to give a toast at your wedding? What are the rules? Are there rules? In this episode, Christy and Michelle discuss the toasts, which by the way is Christy's very favorite part of a wedding. #maketoastsgreatagain Big Takeaways Typically, you have a welcome toast or blessing. Then, sometime during dinner, the Best Man and Maid of Honor give toasts. At cake cutting, the couple themselves might want to give a toast to say thank you to their guests. But...as always, we emphasize that ‘typical' might not be for you! -A new trend with gay weddings is a toast during the ceremony. So fun! -Remember - it's a toast, not a roast! Oh, and 5 minutes is a looooong time to talk. -If there is someone that you definitely DON'T want to give a toast at your wedding, make sure you tell your planner, or if you don't have a planner, tell your DJ or emcee to be vigilant with the mic. -People can toast with whatever they are drinking. Champagne is nice, but not a total necessity. Links we referenced We didn't Quotes “I have a confession to make. I eat a LOT of fast food. I probably have fast food -- my ears are burning because I am so filled with shame -- 4-5 times a week.” - Christy. Confessing her fast food addiction to Michelle (It took us a while to get around to actually talking about toasts. We were catching up!) “When else in your life are you going to be in a room where people are going to stand up and tell you how much they love you? Your funeral. That's it. ...I'm of the mind that the more people that want to toast, the better. Let's just figure out the best way to time it all out.” - Christy. We told you she LOVES toasts! “Good rule of thumb. Whoever is hosting the event - they are the ones that give the welcome toast.” - Michelle. See, sometimes we have easy-peasy real-world advice! Get In Touch Let us know if you have any questions you need answered on the show or if you want to share your own wedding planning experiences! TWITTER: @TBWPpodcast EMAIL: thebigweddingplanningpodcast@gmail.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDmrG6HSV0I Get the podcast on iTunes. Call the NINJA Hotline - (323) 834-9132 - and your question/comment will appear in a future edition of CPA Reviewed. Today's Podcast Giveaway: NINJA Ten Point Combo (x2) Today's Call-in Topics: What to do while you wait for CPA Exam Scores - move on to next section? Study the section you're waiting on? Staying fresh/motivated while you go through the CPA Exam Noteboards - What's the deal? Auditing question re: Testing of Controls Today's Email Questions: Norma - I have 2012 study material from my video course and Wiley and the 2013 NINJA Notes. I am planning to take all four parts this year. Do you think I can get away with using the 2012 videos and Wiley material, vs. purchasing 2013 material? Randy - What recommendations do you have for preparing for the tax preparer and ethics related questions on REG? Maggie - Do you know when the audit reporting standards are changing on AUD? I heard everything is changing starting July 2013. Brian - I didn't do all that great on REG. I think the problem I had was reading the chapters too much and not working the questions enough. Would it be a good idea if I focused all my energy on your NINJA notes, flashcards, and multiple choice questions and shy away from the textbook? I feel like I learn better reading cram notes than reading from the text. Have you seen any other student study in this manor and succeed? Hershey - I am preparing for FAR and planning to sit for the test in May. But now I am thinking that I should instead sit for Audit since it is going to change in July. What do you think? Shauna - Is there a complete IRC database online similar to the one in the exam software (other than the one available in the AICPA sample test program)? Adam - I studied my butt off for Audit using a video course and the Wiley test bank. I came out of the exam feeling like I got every question correct. I could not have felt more confident on the exam and the material. I got my score and ended up with a 71. I'm in complete and utter shock at my grade. Have you heard of this before? I feel like my exam was switched with someone else's. Sylli - I need to send my resume to one of the Big 4 firms, but I haven’t started taking the exam yet. Should I put the name of my review course in my resume? Andrew - I failed REG for the second time. The simulations are killing me. What can I do to improve in the sims? Michelle - It has been a long time since I have taken the exam and I am very nervous about starting this again. I do not remember the information about the new test format for each part, I do not know when the scores come out. I am like a new student with an old past. Please give me your advice on how and where I begin.   Free NINJA CPA Review Materials   Want to Study Less & Get Higher CPA Exam Scores? Can I send you $162.12 of Free CPA Review Materials that will help you... Study Less Avoid Common CPA Candidate Mistakes Get Higher Scores Spend More Time with Friends and Family Finally Pass and Get On With Your Life?

asset title: Grammar Lesson 12: Personalized Infinitive, Paying for your Education filename: tafalado_gra_12.mp3 track number: 38/46 time: 13:07 size: 9.22 MB bitrate: 96 kbps Not only are Brazilians thought of as being very friendly, now they even want to personalize their infinitive verbs! Valdo and Michelle lead the way in showing us how to do the same. Culturally, we talk about the price of education in the United States. And take a peek at this picture! Orlando's really into the Texas Pride. Hook 'em Horns!DialogPortugueseMichelle: É bom fazermos as contas porque esse mês vai ser duro pagar a universidade.Valdo: Quando eles mandarem o valor a gente se preocupa com isso.Michelle: Mas é importante não esquecermos que as universidades públicas aqui nos Estados Unidos não são gratuitas como no Brasil.Valdo: Pois é, e como custa caro! Por isso é que depois de terminarem os estudos os alunos estão todos pobres e endividados.Michelle: Ainda bem que para as universidades públicas no Brasil só basta passarmos no vestibular e pronto.Valdo: É verdade. Para os alunos freqüentarem as universidades privadas no Brasil, eles têm que pagar, mas para cursarem as públicas, que são mantidas pelo governo, não.SpanishMichelle: Sería bueno preparar el presupuesto porque este mes va a ser duro pagar la universidad.Valdo: Cuando ellos mandan la cuenta nos preocupamos mucho.Michelle: Pero es importante recordar que las universidades públicas aquí en los Estados Unidos no son gratuitas como en el Brasil.Valdo: Es verdad, y qué caro es! Es por eso que después de terminar con los estudios los alumnos están pobres y endeudados.Michelle: Lo bueno de las universidades públicas en el Brasil es que nada más se necesita pasar el vestibular y ya.Valdo: Es verdad. Para asistir a las universidades privadas en el Brazil, hay que pagar, pero no para matricularse en las públicas, que son mantenidas por el gobierno.EnglishMichelle: It would be a good thing to do our budget because this month it is going to be tough to pay for the university.Valdo: When they send the bill we really get worried about things.Michelle: But it's important to remember that public universities in the United States are not for free like they are in Brazil.Valdo: Right, and it is expensive! That's why after students are done with their studies they end up poor and in debt.Michelle: Fortunately in public universities in Brazil you just need to past the vestibular and that's it.Valdo: That's true. For those students who would like to attend a private university, they'll have to pay. But for those who enroll in the public ones, which are paid for by the government, they don't need to.

asset title: Grammar Lesson 7: Para with Indirect Pronouns, Ice Water at Restaurants filename: tafalado_gra_07.mp3 track number: 33/46 time: 12:23 size: 8.71 MB bitrate: 96 kbps For all of you who learned how to speak Spanish, we all relive the nightmare experience of learning direct and indirect object pronouns. Lo is direct, le is indirect. When you use both put the indirect first; but you can't say le lo, so change le to se and then say se lo, as in se lo di 'I gave it to him' ... Bad memories for sure, but the good news is that none of that happens in Portuguese. In fact, Brazilians hardly ever use indirect objects. Instead they just say para ele 'to him', para ela 'to her', para eles 'to them'. That's what Orlando, Valdo, Michelle, and Jose Luís talk about in this lesson, which is just para vocês!DialogPortugueseValdo: Por que o garçom trouxe tanta água para aquele povo da outra mesa?Michelle: Aqui é um costume servir água nos bares e restaurantes para os clientes mesmo quando se pede outra coisa pra beber.Valdo: Garçom, traga duas cervejas pra gente, por favor. Nada de água!Michelle: Valdo, e pede pra ele uma salada de palmito também.Valdo: Puxa! O garçom só fica dando água pra eles, olha lá. Eles vão ficar bêbados com tanta água!Michelle: Aqui é impressionante... assim que você chega, a primeira coisa que eles fazem é entregar um copo cheio de água com gelo pra você.SpanishValdo: ¿Por qué el camarero les trajo tanta agua a aquellas personas de la otra mesa?Michelle: Aquí a los clientes es normal servirles agua en los bares y restaurantes aún cuando piden otra cosa para beber.Valdo: Camarero, tráiganos dos cervezas por favor. Y nada de agua!Michelle: Valdo, pídele que traiga una ensalada de palmito también.Valdo: Uau, el camarero continúa dándoles agua, mira. Se emborracharán con tanta agua.Michelle: Aquí es impresionante ... luego que vengas, la primera cosa que hacen es entregarte un vaso lleno de agua con hielo.EnglishValdo: Why did the waiter take so much water to those people at that other table?Michelle: Here it's customary to serve customers water in bars and restaurants even when they have asked for something else to drink.Valdo: Waiter, bring us two beers please. And no water!Michelle: Valdo, ask him to bring a heart of palm salad too.Valdo: Wow! The waiter keeps on giving them water, look at that. They are going to get drunk on so much water.Michelle: It's impressive here ... as soon as you arrive the first thing they do is bring you a glass full of ice water.

For all of you who learned how to speak Spanish, we all relive the nightmare experience of learning direct and indirect object pronouns. Lo is direct, le is indirect. When you use both put the indirect first; but you can't say le lo, so change le to se and then say se lo, as in se lo di 'I gave it to him' ... Bad memories for sure, but the good news is that none of that happens in Portuguese. In fact, Brazilians hardly ever use indirect objects. Instead they just say para ele 'to him', para ela 'to her', para eles 'to them'. That's what Orlando, Valdo, Michelle, and Jose Luís talk about in this lesson, which is just para vocês!o drink. Valdo: Waiter, bring us two beers please. And no water! Michelle: Valdo, ask him to bring a heart of palm salad too. Valdo: Wow! The waiter keeps on giving them water, look at that. They are going to get drunk on so much water. Michelle: It's impressive here ... as soon as you arrive the first thing they do is bring you a glass full of ice water.

asset title: Lesson 22: Epenthetic Vowels (wow, fancy word!), Fast Food filename: tafalado_22.mp3 track number: 23/46 time: 11:50 size: 8.32 MB bitrate: 96 kbps Epenthe ... what? Epenthetic vowels. We know, it sounds like a tropical disease, but it's really the linguistic feature that produces such great Brazilian words as 'piquenique' for picnic. Valdo isn't sure he can bring himself to say 'hoti doggie' for 'hot dog,' but he has no problem with 'fasti foodi.'DialogPortugueseValdo: Você já observou como a comida daqui é diferente da nossa?Michelle: É óbvio que sim! E o mais absurdo é que a gente não tem opção: é fast food todo dia!Valdo: Você está absolutamente certa! No Brasil, nós nunca substituiríamos um prato de arroz e feijão por um pedaço de pizza ou por um hot dog.Michelle: É verdade. Nossa comida é digna dos deuses!Valdo: Ainda bem que nós não somos adeptos a esse sistema, né?Michelle: Pois é ... apesar do nosso ritmo de vida ser igual, sempre optamos por ter pelo menos uma refeição de verdade.SpanishValdo: ¿Ha observado usted como la comida de aquí es diferente que la nuestra?Michelle: Sí, es obvio. Y lo más absurdo es que no hay otra opción: es fast food todos los díasValdo: Absolutamente, usted tiene toda la razón. En Brasil, nunca substituiríamos un plato de arroz y frijoles por una pizza o por una hot dog.Michelle: Es verdad. Nuestra comida es digna de los dióses.Valdo: Felizmente no somos adeptos a ese sistema, ¿verdad?Michelle: Pues sí ... puede ser que nuestra ritmo de vida sea igual, pero siempre hay opciones para comer una comida de verdad.EnglishValdo: Have you ever observed how food here is different from ours?Michelle: It's obvious yes. And the most absurd thing is that we have no options here: fast food every day!Valdo: You are absolutely correct. In Brazil we would never substitute a plate of rice and beans for a slice of pizza or for a hot dog.Michelle: That is true. Our food is worthy of the gods!Valdo: It's a good thing that we aren't very adept at their system, you know?Michelle: You're right ... even if our rhythm of life is just like theirs, we'll always take time to at least have a real meal.

asset title: Lesson 21: Pronunciation of Syllable-final 'l', Making Prints of Digital Photos filename: tafalado_21.mp3 track number: 22/46 time: 13:20 size: 9.38 MB bitrate: 96 kbps If you would like to say the name of their country correctly, Michelle and Valdo are here to show us how to say 'Brasil,' which really comes out more like 'Braziw.' That is the trick in lesson 21. They also share their experience at self-service digital photo machines.DialogPortugueseValdo: No Brasil a gente sempre tem alguém que revela as nossas fotos. E aqui, qual é o procedimento ideal?Michelle: Aqui não falta lugar que tenha essas máquinas de alta tecnologia para imprimir fotos multicoloridas.Valdo: A última vez que revelei as minhas a cor azul ficou muito saltada. Não gostei do resultado final.Michelle: Eh, aqui quem revela as fotos somos nós mesmos. É só salvar num CD ou levar o cartão de memória da máquina, selecionar no painel as fotos que você quer e imprimir no papel.Valdo: Nada mal, hein? Culturas diferentes, né? Mas é fácil usar essas máquinas? É igual a um caixa eletrônico?Michelle: É super fácil. Você pode revelar mais de mil fotos e o custo não é alto.SpanishValdo: En Brasil siempre hay alguien que revela las fotos. Y aquí, ¿cuál es el procedimiento ideal?Michelle: Aquí no faltan lugares donde hay esas máquinas de alta tecnología para imprimir fotos de colores.Valdo: La última vez que revelé la mías el color azul quedó muy fuerte. No me gustó el resultado final.Michelle: Sí, aquí revelamos las fotos nosotros mismos. Es solo grabar en un CD o llevar la memoria de la cámara, seleccionar en la pantalla las fotos que desea y luego imprimir en el papel.Valdo: Está bien, ¿verdad? Culturas diferentes, ¿no? ¿Es fácil usar esas máquinas? ¿Es igual a un cajero automático?Michelle: Es súper fácil. Se puede revelar más de mil fotos y el costo no es alto.EnglishValdo: In Brazil there is always someone who will develop our pictures. And here, what's the best procedure?Michelle: Here there is no lack of these high tech machines where you can get colored prints.Valdo: Last time I developed (my pictures) the blue color came out too strong. I didn't like how they looked.Michelle: Here you can develop your own pictures. You just have to save them to a CD or take the memory card, select the prints you want on the screen and print them out on paper.Valdo: Not bad, right? Different cultures I guess. But is it easy to use these machines? Is it like an ATM machine?Michelle: It's really easy. You could print out a thousand pictures and it doesn't cost a lot.