Podcasts about michelle oh

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by Hannah Davis (@rooted.with.hannah), a Registered Dietitian and certified meditation teacher who specialises in women's health, hormones, and autoimmune conditions. After being diagnosed with Hashimoto's while navigating early motherhood, Hannah shifted her clinical nutrition practice to focus on uncovering the deeper root causes of symptoms like fatigue, cycle irregularities, and PCOS. We dive into how nervous system dysregulation often underlies hormonal imbalances and why functional testing, mineral status, and emotional safety are crucial for true healing. From decoding PCOS types to understanding thyroid antibodies and the connection between trauma and calcium retention, Hannah offers a deeply integrative and compassionate lens for supporting women on their fertility and healing journeys. This conversation is packed with practical tools and fresh insights—don't miss it! Key Takeaways: PCOS is not just about ovarian cysts—it's a metabolic and inflammatory condition with many root causes. Nervous system regulation is foundational for hormone balance, digestion, and fertility. Functional lab testing (like Dutch and HTMA) reveals hidden patterns traditional labs may miss. Excess calcium in tissues may indicate trauma or over-supplementation with Vitamin D. Diet, stress, sleep, and gut health all influence autoimmune and hormonal symptoms. Guest Bio: Hannah Davis, RD (@rooted.with.hannah) is a Registered Dietitian and certified meditation teacher with advanced training in functional nutrition, lab testing, and spiritual psychology. She specialises in supporting women with hormonal imbalances, autoimmune conditions like Hashimoto's, and chronic fatigue through an integrative approach that blends clinical science with deep nourishment and nervous system healing. After navigating her own health challenges postpartum, Hannah now helps women reclaim their energy, resilience, and sense of safety through 1:1 coaching and group programs at Pivot Nutrition Coaching. She's especially passionate about working with mothers, self-healers, and cycle-breakers who are ready to feel like themselves again. Links and Resources: Follow Hannah on Instagram Visit the Pivot Nutrition Coaching website Book Mentioned: The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com  To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility  The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/  Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/  Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care. ------------- Transcript: # Audio: TWF 340- Hannah [00:00:00] [00:01:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey. **Michelle:** Welcome to the podcast, Hannah.  **Hannah:** thanks for having me. **Michelle:** So I'm very excited to have you on. We're gonna be talking about a lot of really cool topics, but before we get started, I always like to start out with kind of like an origin story and learn how you got into the work that you're doing.  **Hannah:** Yeah. I am a registered dietician. I've been mainly practicing medical nutrition therapy for the last 10 years in a more clinical setting. And you know, and then [00:02:00] I became a mom. I have two. One's almost eight, you gotta say almost eight. And the other one's, and the other one's nine. So they're really, they're really young and I, you know, working at the hospital part-time and I started noticing. **Hannah:** My own symptoms of, of things that just felt like off. And simultaneously I was also becoming more interested in learning about more integrative functional nutrition. And so that really led me down. It, it started off as, oh. A way for me to kind of figure out what was going on with me, because of course, like so many of my, the clients I work with now you know, you go to the doctors, you ask for some labs to be done and they just say, oh, you're absolutely fine. **Hannah:** You might just be stressed. You're stressed out, you're a young mom. Of course it's normal to feel exhausted all of the time and stuff like that. So, I just was like really interested [00:03:00] in doing more digging and so I, we got some training in advanced lab testing and more like integrative functional nutrition. **Hannah:** And so. From there I was able to figure out what's going on with me, and I, I actually have an autoimmune condition. It's called Hashimotos. And so that really affects, you know, your, your energy levels, your, your gut health, your immune system obviously is involved. So I, it was so incredibly validating and it really excited me. **Hannah:** I was like, I feel. If I can figure out a way to use advanced lab testing and combine that with my. More of my more clinical, you know, expertise and combine that together to really like, help women feel empowered about how to support their health and, and how they feel and their showing up in their lives every [00:04:00] day. **Hannah:** And so it just really, really excited me. So that's kind of what got me started with that. And then I, I pivoted towards, towards that about three years ago started my own virtual practice working more in like the women's health space. So like hormones, gut health, autoimmune conditions. **Hannah:** And then I, as I was doing more of that work, I was like, okay, there's. I'm seeing a common theme here. These women at their root, cause a lot of the time is nervous system dysregulation. And I got really. Tired of just saying over and over again. You know, you need to manage your stress a little bit better. **Hannah:** I wanted to be able to give them so much more than that. And obviously I knew that from my own journey. I really had to integrate that. And so, but I wanted to like, figure out how to help my, my clients integrate that. So then I became a certified meditation [00:05:00] teacher. And spent a year studying spiritual psychology, which is like a blend of Eastern ritual and practices with western psychology. **Hannah:** That, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So now I really like to supplement my, programs with giving my clients tools on how to regulate their nervous systems as well. And so, we'll, you know, you know, it's more of like life coaching almost. And then maybe we'll integrate some, some things like, meditation or breath work together. **Hannah:** It really just depends on what the, how the client wants to be supported. So  **Michelle:** Awesome.  **Hannah:** Yeah.  **Michelle:** You know it's interesting 'cause I  **Hannah:** Yeah. **Michelle:** an episode on. Nervous system. Really the vagal tone and  **Hannah:** Yes. **Michelle:** there's a link with a weaker vagal tone and things like endometriosis or  **Michelle:** PCOS, and I thought that was just fascinating. [00:06:00]  **Michelle:** So, yeah, I'd love to really kind of dig deep on all of these things. So just for people listening and they're kind of like hearing nervous system for the first time. 'cause well maybe they've listened to my podcast, maybe not when I talked about the nervous system. But what should people, like, explain the nervous system, explain how the nervous system ties into certain conditions. **Hannah:** I mean, that's a very, like, that's pretty broad because it's like, you know, it really depends on what. **Michelle:** the nervous system like tie into certain conditions?  **Hannah:** I don't know what condition it doesn't, honestly. Uh, the more, the more I get like deep in the weeds with this, so, you know, a lot of my clients we, you know, so I am typically working with people with autoimmune conditions and hormone. I balances gut health, that kind of stuff. And I, you know, I would say the nervous system impacts all of those areas [00:07:00] because ideally, especially when we're talking about women's health and like hormones, things like that we really just want to create safety in the body, right? **Hannah:** So that we can. Manufacture hormones and ovulate naturally and things like that. So, and then, you know, inflammation's another, another piece of that. It really just, it's a great way to, like, it just connects to everything right. **Michelle:** Yeah, well the vagus nerve is incredibly important when it comes to gut health. the stronger the vagal tone, the better the vagus nerve, the better. It's able to lower inflammation in the body.  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** fascinating and interesting. And so what are some of the things that you do suggest for people. they wanna regulate their nervous system and support that aspect.  **Hannah:** So First of all, I think it's important to just figure out what are the systems for that client? What are [00:08:00] the systems that are working for them and what's not? And really get really honest about that. And then, you know, it could be something like starting a. **Hannah:** Very doable meditation practice or some breath work like before, before meals, right? Getting into rest and digest me activating that vagus nerve so that we can digest our food properly. So it really just depends on what is feels a lot most aligned for the client and, and is doable for them. But also I think another big piece of this, which is not really talked about often is eating for blood sugar balance. **Hannah:** Because even like blood sugar swings throughout the day can cause fluctuations in your mood and your anxiety and cravings and all, all of, and even inflammation as well. So  **Michelle:** that  **Hannah:** like a whole body [00:09:00] approach. Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** It's such a good point. And I remember like looking into this and researching like just really the gut brain connection and. And it's interesting 'cause you can see it really go both ways. So if you have imbalanced gut microbiome that can ima impact your brain and your mood and your state and your emotions. **Michelle:** And it actually is linked with certain emotional um, imbalances or like mental disorders. It's really fascinating. And then they found. On the flip side that people who meditated for many years, like Tibetan monks, they had a really vast microbiome that was a lot more enriched and had a lot more diversity. **Michelle:** So it's really fascinating how you really can literally get it at both ends or either end.  **Hannah:** yeah. Like I tell my clients all the time, if you're breathing into your shoulders, the majority of the time it's gonna signal, [00:10:00] or that's gonna signal to the brain that you're in fight or flight. So it's gonna send all the blood to your extremities. It's not gonna be sending the blood to, you know, your, your GI track and your, you know, your organs there. **Hannah:** And so. it's gonna be a lot harder to digest your foods, whereas if you are really taking these deep breaths into your belly, it's sending all the blood there. And that's, that's a, and I mean, I often get skipped, you know, people are just like, no, just gimme a, just gimme a meal plan. I wanna feel better. **Hannah:** I wanna lose weight, or I wanna, you know, but it's like, you really gotta think about not just what you're eating, but how you're eating, like what your nervous system state is. You know, when you're, when you're eating food.  **Michelle:** That's so true. It's  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** true. And it was funny 'cause I was reading about that and it was one of the things to do is just stand. This is why they say like, don't drive and eat at the same time. Because when you're driving naturally, you're gonna be in a little bit more of a fight or flight or kind of ready for anything and. Also just to kind of throw it out [00:11:00] there, it's not bad to be in that state, in that sympathetic state. It's part of life. It's just that sometimes you need that and then sometimes you need the other. But what you're saying is so true, like it's actually like becoming mindful of getting yourself into that state and maybe  **Michelle:** doing those exercises to get yourself in more parasympathetic state, which is more of  **Michelle:** the rest and digest, so that you're priming your body when you do eat. To digest better. So I think  **Hannah:** Yeah. Of course, and, you know, if you're digesting better, you're absorbing nutrients better, which is gonna impact your energy levels, your mood, your hormones, everything. So yeah, there really, I feel like the more I get into it, the, more I see that there really isn't an aspect of our health, our med, our metabolic health, everything that is not touched by, your nervous system. **Michelle:** Yeah, it's really fascinating. I like, the more I dig into this, the more I'm just like so [00:12:00] amazed at how Willy, you know, it's the nervous system is kind of like this wiring of like. Information.  **Michelle:** It's almost like information that kind of signals to your body, all kinds of different states, but especially that safety. **Michelle:** I agree with you. You know, when you, when you feel safe, you can be more creative. And what does that mean really in the body fertility and it also regeneration growth.  **Michelle:** So yeah, it's pretty cool,  **Hannah:** Yeah. And I mean, hormones, that's how hormones work too. They're just chemical messengers in your body. **Michelle:** right? and so talk about PCOS, 'cause I know that you work with P-C-O-S-A lot just to cover. 'cause I think of people don't really understand it fully because it is you know, there's so many different types of PCOS and people get confused and sometimes people show PCOS symptoms, but then some doctors, and we don't know if they're just not like looking. Thoroughly into it. Dismiss it. Oh, that's not PCOS. So  **Hannah:** Right.  **Michelle:** that and just kind of, **Hannah:** Yeah.  **Michelle:** [00:13:00] it is,  **Hannah:** Okay, well, we'll just start what, like, so what is PCOS? So PCOS stands for polycystic ovarian syndrome. So a lot of people get confused by that right off the bat. They think, oh, so that mean I have cysts on my ovaries. Does that mean that I have it? So it's actually not a physical ovarian condition, like of the presence of cyst, but it's rather a hormonal condition and it's a, what I like to call a spectrum condition. **Hannah:** You know, 'cause there's different varieties and there's different root causes. It's important to understand, first of all what kind of PCOS you have and what the root causes are which is why we, we use functional lab testing in practice. But but yeah, I think a lot of women often it's like a long confusing road full of mixed messages of like just lose weight advice,  **Michelle:** Yeah,  **Hannah:** [00:14:00] you know. **Michelle:** really thin. PCOS patients, so that's where it can get so confusing for  **Hannah:** Right, right, right. And so, A-P-C-O-S isn't in an ovarian condition, you know, what exactly is going on? I mean, in a nutshell, it's basically, blood sugar issues plus inflammation, plus genetic susceptibility, which is going to lead to the ovaries to begin to produce large amounts of androgens. **Hannah:** So, you know, and I say genetic susceptibility because, you know, just because you have like insulin sensi or insulin resistance or diabetes, that doesn't mean you automatically are gonna get PCOS. Some people just have really sensitive ovaries right. And so they're, they're going to develop the, the condition, so I like to talk to my clients about well first of all, we start by running some tests [00:15:00] to find out, you know, what what their root causes are. And then we're gonna really go deep with, you know, working on the blood sugar issues with the inflammation, real food strategies lifestyle interventions, things like that. **Michelle:** One of the things that I find is pretty common just in my own practice, is that. **Michelle:** there's a huge link of gut imbalance  **Michelle:** or, you know, gut microbiome  **Michelle:** imbalance and inflammation, you know, that is part of the contributor to the inflammation and can really impact PCOS conditions.  **Hannah:** Yeah. Because you know, if we, if that inflammation in the gut is going unchecked you know, that's also gonna drive that insulin resistance even more.  **Michelle:** Yeah.  **Michelle:** what are some of the tests that you do for PCOS? Functional  **Hannah:** Well, yeah. Well, first of all, I, I like to start with a Dutch test. It's a, have you heard of [00:16:00] Dutch? The Uhhuh? Yeah. Oh, you do? Okay. Yeah. So I would run a Dutch you know, so that we,  **Michelle:** out just for people  **Hannah:** yeah. Yes, **Michelle:** I've never heard of it before. So it's dried urine testing for comprehensive, or I forget  **Hannah:** it's a Dr. It's a. Yeah, yeah. Dried urine test for comprehensive hormones. I know I used to think, oh, it's of Dutch, like it's from the Dutch, like, you know, but it's just an abbreviation.  **Michelle:** right, right.  **Hannah:** But yes, it's a very unique way to look at hormones. 'cause traditionally before this test was available, you would have to rely on blood work for hormones. **Hannah:** And, you know, saliva for cortisol, which is okay, but it's just not great. So this test really helps us get a lot more specific, a lot more personalized, and helps us get some answers that would probably. Be left unanswered if we were just, you know, looking at, at blood work alone. So, you know, it's gonna tell us, you know, give us a snapshot [00:17:00] of all three sex hormones, estrogen, progesterone, testosterone. **Hannah:** It's gonna show us how they're being metabolized in the liver. And then what I really like is it looks at your cortisol awakening response. So someone is struggling with sleep, mood, energy levels. Things like that that could also be driving your symptoms and, and your inflammation as well. So I, mm-hmm. **Michelle:** cortisol is your friend in the morning.  **Hannah:** Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And then I like that it also has that organic acid test at the end there, which some of those other markers are gonna be important for looking at, for hormone production. So it's nice if they include that. So I, I like to do a Dutch, I also like to do HTMA testing, which stands for hair tissue mineral analysis. **Hannah:** Because, you know, you know, when we're looking at hormones it's, you know, we, we also wanna be, look thinking about minerals too because and not just like, our minerals through blood [00:18:00] work, but more on a cellular level. Like what is the body doing with those minerals? And how is your body utilizing them? **Hannah:** Are they even getting up into the cell? So, and we can, you know, you know, minerals, they impact hormones, which means they're gonna impact PCOS. So I like that one too. And it's like a little, it's a, it's a nice way to, I like it 'cause it's, it shows your body's like, it's like a blueprint. It shows you your stress pattern. **Hannah:** know how your body is using minerals after you've maybe gone through a season of. Really high stress and you know, the fertility journey too is so stressful on its own that I'm like, yeah, let's look at what your body does with all this stress and how we can really like, you know, deeply nourish your body and, you know, make it feel safe for ovulation. **Michelle:** Yeah, I know that there's a lot of minerals that you can't really test in blood and for example, magnesium. That's a **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** one to test for. So does this test for magnesium as well, like all [00:19:00] minerals or,  **Hannah:** yeah, yeah. It looks at all of the minerals. Specifically the ones that I'm gonna be focusing on. The minerals that impact PCS would be magnesium, zinc, calcium, iron selenium iodine. So, you know, and in a nutshell, you know, these, these minerals. they can exacerbate insulin resistance, hormonal imbalances, oxidative stress, which is important for like egg quality, sperm quality, things like that. **Hannah:** So women, get your men to your partner.  **Michelle:** Yes.  **Michelle:** So, so this is a hair test.  **Hannah:** yeah, it's a hair. They're using just like a teaspoon amount of your hair to analyze the mineral content in your tissues. **Michelle:** Fascinating. I know they've done those for like heavy metals and, and just testing the  **Hannah:** Yeah, yeah,  **Michelle:** I haven't heard of the mineral testing yet.  **Hannah:** yeah. And this, yeah. And this test does include heavy metals and we look at, mm-hmm.  **Michelle:** heavy metals. Oh, [00:20:00] okay.  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** it's really high. Just like for people that don't have symptoms sometimes I almost feel like it's like high for everybody.  **Hannah:** The heavy metals. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and  **Michelle:** somebody who's not, who doesn't have like,  **Hannah:** yeah, and I mean, we we're exposed to heavy metals all of the time. It's, you know, it's, there's, it's kind of impossible to get around it, you know? It's in our food, our water, the soil, you know. And so my approach is, you know, we might see like an acute. **Hannah:** Exposure to the heavy metals. But what we wanna see is that you, you're able to detox and excrete those heavy metals safely. You know, that's why, you know, we have our detox organs, our liver, right? And so if I ever see those metals like pushing into the tissues, it's just a really good indication that, hey, your liver needs some. **Hannah:** Some attention, like we need to work on supporting that. And also working on not just our [00:21:00] detoxification organs, but our drainage pathways. So like our lymphatic system you know, making sure we're having daily bowel movements that we're sweating all of that. All of that stuff. Yeah.  **Michelle:** Yeah. **Michelle:** for sure. I think that that's key is really detoxifying, and I think that it, you had a good point. You mentioned the word safely because  **Michelle:** that can be an issue, like if you detoxify too harshly. I'm really big on that, especially when you're trying to conceive and you're actively trying, you definitely don't wanna do something that's so strong that it actually circulates more toxins in your bloodstream.  **Hannah:** That's right. Yeah. **Michelle:** So they have like binders, right? Or things  **Hannah:** Yeah, That is one approach for me. I rarely will do like a heavy metal detox with somebody. I will just wanna work with them on, you know, first the foundational things of, are we optimizing the gut health, the, you know, the liver function are we getting those drainage pathways [00:22:00] open? **Hannah:** Because your body should be able to do all that on its own if it's, you know, optimal. but I mean, if someone's already doing like a gut protocol or something with me, then yeah, they, they'll be taking like those types of supplements and then it'll, it'll still act on the heavy metals and things like that, as. **Michelle:** Interesting. So, what are some of the nutrient and lifestyle interventions specifically that you would do for PCOS? Or have you seen, because I, I do know that  **Hannah:** yeah.  **Michelle:** different types, so that could  **Hannah:** Yes.  **Michelle:** the type,  **Hannah:** Yes. Yeah. **Michelle:** the things that people should kind of like look out for, think about?  **Hannah:** Yeah. Yeah. So the first step is, is gonna be improving the quality of your food choices. So, you know, removing inflammatory oils, added sugars a lot of like processed, like ultra processed carbohydrates and, you know, with chemical and artificial additives. Things like that, you wanna replace them with whole real foods. **Hannah:** It's really that simple.  **Michelle:** Yeah. I [00:23:00] know,  **Hannah:** Yeah. Yeah. And then also, you know, the goal is to eat a sufficient amount of carbohydrates to promote ovulation, but while still focusing on those whole real. Food sources, like starchy veggies fruits and then unprocessed whole grains and legumes.  **Michelle:** So really from natural sources,  **Michelle:** complex car carbs. So it's not like simple carbs, not white, you know, avoid those like.  **Hannah:** Yeah. Right. So you, and you would want to make sure you're getting adequate amount of carbohydrates, but you know, if we're also dealing with insulin resistance, then we also need to be talking about you know, maintaining adequate calorie intake and just aiming for. Balance across all the macronutrients. **Hannah:** So, you know, we're pairing those carbohydrates with good quality sources of protein and healthy fats. And, if you're eating a more whole food carbs diet like. Your carbs are coming [00:24:00] from fruits like, and like root vegetables and things like that, then those foods are naturally gonna have more fiber in them, which is also gonna help with things like insulin resistance. **Hannah:** And then I would also be focusing on gut nourishing foods, like, bone broth probiotics from fermented foods, cultured. Products. And then lots of prebiotic fibers. So it also just making sure you're eating a wide range of, plant fibers. Like we're not just eating the same, spinach every day. **Hannah:** You know, let's really mix that up. Maybe like arugula, kale, you know. So that would be the where, where I would start with foods strategies. And then for lifestyle I would be really focusing on exercise. This is a really crucial tool in repairing insulin sensitivity and managing blood sugar levels. **Hannah:** So first I would just focus on increasing your daily movement. So, you know, maybe try tracking your steps. And then maybe you would wanna consider adding in some resistance [00:25:00] training and some short hit style workouts. Since those really show the most metabolic improvements. In general I would avoid, I would avoid like, really long duration cardio on a regular baseball basis, since that's like very stressful on the body. **Hannah:** So exercise is number one. Stress management is key. I know we've already kind of touched on that a little bit. You know, that's a big piece of hormonal. Balance balance since the, your adrenal health, you know, has the ability to impact the function of your sex hormones. I would just evaluate the sources of your stress. **Hannah:** You know, I like to think of it like a bucket, like a stress bucket, and we have all these different inputs pouring in. Some of those things we can't really remove, but some things we can, you can control your nutrition and your sleep quality. You know, you can maybe work on energetic boundaries, right? **Hannah:** Maybe you wanna include things like meditation or [00:26:00] journaling, acupuncture, right? Those are all really nice ways to support yourself. And then sleep. Sleep is also like so major. That's when you know when you're, you can get good quality sleep at night. That's when your, your body's repairing tissue. **Hannah:** And it, it has a lot to do with your hormones, like in like your like your hunger hormones, those ones and then also like cortisol, melatonin, things like that. Everything that just keeps all of the systems working together smoothly. So, yep. Do you. **Michelle:** of sleep. There's a, there like a lot of times we'll increase sugar cravings 'cause you want that quick energy. So  **Hannah:** Yes, **Michelle:** that's one example of how that can impact  **Hannah:** exactly. Yeah. Yeah. If you have like one poor night of sleep, it increases your hunger hormone levels pretty significantly. So we'll see that that issue popping up time and time again. Yeah, so.[00:27:00]  **Michelle:** yeah. And I also have heard, in some  **Michelle:** of like go, literally pivot into autoimmune and how you can address that in the case of Hashimoto's? **Michelle:** 'cause it is so prevalent and a lot of people have it. The first thing that I say is, cut out gluten, corn, and dairy and soy if you can. Now, I always say if you can't do all of them, at least cut out the gluten entirely and talk to us about like what you've done and what you've found to be helpful. **Michelle:** 'cause it is something that if you catch early, you really can sh shift a lot just from diet alone.  **Hannah:** Oh, yes. Yeah, and I've helped. Hundreds of women with that. Exactly. Just you know, we [00:28:00] see, I've seen different stages of, Hashimoto's. You know, so if it's like, you know, stage one where we're seeing the presence of antibodies and maybe they have symptoms, maybe they don't. A lot of those women typically will present with like subclinical hypothyroidism. **Hannah:** So like their thyroid labs look fine. But they're like, I, feel tired all the time. I'm constipated. I can't lose weight, you know? So the first thing I would start with is kinda getting ahead of things with, 'cause the majority of your immune system is in your gut. So I would be doing a GI would run a stool sample, a GI map and see what's going on there. **Hannah:** Because there's different things that could be driving. That immune response. Yeah. It could be coming from things in the diet like gluten. And that test certainly will show us if you're having an immune response to gluten. So in those cases, I would have those clients cut, cut that out. And some people they, they don't, they don't run the test and they [00:29:00] cut out gluten, but they just feel better without it. **Michelle:** See that a lot.  **Hannah:** mm-hmm. I do too. Just kind of anecdotally. I was just gonna say that I think it is because of like, what, what they're spraying on our crops.  **Michelle:** Yeah, **Hannah:** Yep. know that it can impact hormones like big time, that's  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm.  **Michelle:** one for sure.  **Hannah:** Yeah. So, and then, you know, obviously if there's a inflammation or like leaky gut.  **Hannah:** You know, we're gonna wanna address that anyway because that could be driving that immune response and making your symptoms worse, making the antibodies levels worse, right? So I really wanna just get ahead of it with the gut number one. **Hannah:** And then I like to do mineral testing as well, since so many minerals, not only impact PCOS, but they impact your thyroid.  **Michelle:** That's a huge  **Hannah:** Yes, selenium. This is a common thing that I see. I'll see really high amounts of calcium in the [00:30:00] tissues. And that's gonna block your thyroid hormone from getting up into the cell. **Hannah:** So like maybe their thyroid panel looks great, but that, or they're already taking a thyroid medication, but they're, they feel like it's not doing anything for them. I'm like, look, you have a lot of calcium in your tissues. And so like, that's your thyroid hormone's not even getting up into the cell. So of course you wouldn't feel an impact there. **Hannah:** And that also is. **Michelle:** actually? What causes that? Calcification?  **Hannah:** So, I typically see that from over supplementing with vitamin D. So, that will pull the calcium out of the bone and teeth. And put it into the tissues. Yeah. A lot of people get put on vitamin D by their doctor, like maybe they had low levels at one point, and then their doctor never talked to them about weaning off of the vitamin D. **Hannah:** They just kept taking it.  **Michelle:** too high. Yeah.  **Hannah:** Yeah. Or they'll start them off like a really high dose, like I've seen like 50,000 units of, of vitamin. Yeah. [00:31:00] And they, and they just keep taking it like, then they're never told like, Hey, you're actually supposed to tapered off of that after a couple months. I've also seen an influx of people on vitamin D, zinc you know, ever since the pandemic. **Hannah:** So they just kept taking it and they don't know how that's impacted their. Mine. So, so yeah, that's one culprit. I, I'll see. The other thing that I notice, and this is pretty prevalent in the autoimmune community is, and I don't think it's talked about a lot, is significant trauma and certain types of trauma. **Hannah:** It, it's like we call when we see this pattern on an htm. It, we call it a calcium shell where the calcium and the magnesium levels are really high in the tissues. And then we are like really depleted in things like potassium and sodium and other secondary minerals. And it's kind of like the body's way of shielding itself from feeling [00:32:00] big, like feeling really big emotions. **Hannah:** So like a lot of these clients, I, I'll talk to them about this and they have such a flat effect, like with the then we start moving the calcium out of the tissues and then they become, they're, it's like they really need more emotional support throughout that process. It's very interesting. I'm about to actually do an HTMA on myself. **Hannah:** It's been a couple of years, but I've just gone, I'm grieving my mom right now and I, yeah, and it's just been a really rough couple of months. I've just been just going through the motions and kind of in that, like taking care of her, taking care of my girls. Like just everything that we've gone through leading up to this point. **Hannah:** And I'm like, I am so curious to know what's going on with my minerals right now. I would not be surprised if I was having calcium going into my tissues. 'cause I believe that's what was my pattern last [00:33:00] time I ran the test a few years ago. So.  **Michelle:** Oh, that's interesting.  **Hannah:** It's like, yeah, this is my, my unique pattern, you know, so I see that a lot with Hashimoto's and yeah, and, and it's interesting because that pattern, like the high calcium in the tissues and the low potassium, that's really really common with like thyroid stuff in general because, you know, first of all, that calcium's blocking the thyroid. **Hannah:** Hormone from getting up into the cell. It's also gonna be blocking insulin signaling. So there is gonna be a lot of blood sugar swings, and that's gonna be driving the inflammation, making that worse. And then the low potassium, well, you know, potassium is needed for thyroid function as well. So, I see that pattern a lot with that population and it's so fascinating. **Hannah:** And I would just say like, I wouldn't say it's like. It's more like anecdotal, right? Like and you probably see that too in your practice. Yeah. Yeah.  **Michelle:** For different things, not this [00:34:00] specifically, but Yeah. **Michelle:** I mean, you see a lot of that and that's, that matters just because studies are very expensive to have and you can't  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** rely just on studies. You have to really rely on data in general, like your own experience  **Hannah:** Oh, absolutely. **Michelle:** there's so much information that you can get just from that. And then, couple of things. One of the things is, I know that Zyme has been shown to really help, it's an enzyme, it's a pro oleic enzymes that break apart, like fibrous tissue. So I'm curious to  **Hannah:** Oh **Michelle:** if it would help with excess calcium or, you know, deposits because it, it works to break down  **Hannah:** yeah,  **Michelle:** really needed in the body.  **Hannah:** yeah. Yeah.  **Michelle:** up.  **Hannah:** Yeah. That is interesting. Yeah, because when we see, usually the calcium in the tissues is also associated with things like restless leg syndrome, kidney stones, gallstones, all that stuff, you know, because it's just calcification of the tissues. [00:35:00] Right. What I do is I'll get, if that person is, has actually been on vitamin D what I'll do is I'll say, okay, let's just pause on the vitamin D and then I'll get them on, a form of vitamin K two that will target that calcium in the tissues and, and bring it, redirect it back to the bones. So we'll do that for several months. And if that person's still concerned about their, their vitamin D levels and say, let's just get that checked, you know, and depending on where you're at with that, you, you either, you know, probably need supplementation time from time to time, or maybe just during the winter, right? **Hannah:** But it's not a long term. You know, supplement for you because of this pattern, this pattern that you typically have. **Michelle:** Another thing that I was gonna mention is, we were talking about like, antibodies.  **Michelle:** I remember, One of my patients mentioning she had like a, 'cause I was talking to an REI and I was gonna have him, I had him on the podcast and so she had some questions and she had a very low amount of [00:36:00] antibodies that are considered normal. And he said no, because the presence of any antibody, and that's what's crazy to me.  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm.  **Michelle:** normal in labs  **Hannah:** Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. The reference ranges for conventional labs or like in more like conventional healthcare settings. They're not, they're designed to show like if you have a chronic disease or not. Not necessarily if you're optimal. Right. Like thriving, you know? **Michelle:** have any, even if it's like minute, it means that there's an autoimmune, like  **Hannah:** Right. And.  **Michelle:** your thyroid.  **Hannah:** Yeah, and I mean, my first thought is like, and just because I've worked in that arena for so long, is I think it's just because they need to have a diagnose, a diagnosis for a chronic disease, number one, so that they can build insurance and blah, blah, blah.  **Michelle:** Yeah, yeah, yeah.  **Hannah:** So they typically can't treat you. They can't, they [00:37:00] technically can't treat you. **Hannah:** Like they don't really run on a, it's more of like a sick care model. It's not really, they can't really treat you for like prevention. Right. That's not like that that's not how insurance companies work. So, I think that that's, that's my theory on that. But, you know, but to, to answer your question, yes, I, I see, low levels that aren't considered Hashimoto's,  **Michelle:** Right?  **Hannah:** but I would label that early stages or stage one, and I would say, let's work, let's, let's order GI Map. **Hannah:** Let's look at what your minerals are doing like that impact your thyroid. Let's just, just start helping you feel better right away so that we can go into remission. I would much rather my client like, just go ahead and work on those things instead of waiting until it's like, you know, now we're seeing tissue damage, you know, and there's a lot of practices. **Hannah:** I don't,  **Michelle:** it if it's early enough, like, but if it's  **Hannah:** yeah.  **Michelle:** really like far gone,  **Hannah:** Yeah. It can, and I don't know if you've run [00:38:00] across this a lot in your practice or with your clients, but I've been told a lot of times that they weren't even able to request or see a specialist or an endocrinologist, I guess, until they were able to see tissue damage. And it's like, wouldn't you wanna just prevent the tissue damage? **Michelle:** crazy to me. Yeah.  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I'm, you know, I just like to get on it like right away, even if it's like, you know, your antibodies are like five, you know?  **Michelle:** yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Really low, but still,  **Hannah:** Yeah. Really low. Yeah. It's worth working on. Yeah. **Michelle:** I had actually just recently, I had a case where her TSH was like five and she's young, she's in her twenties. And I'm  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm.  **Michelle:** not normal.  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** just a little abnormal. **Michelle:** But that's not a little abnormal for try somebody trying to conceive.  **Hannah:** Yeah.  **Michelle:** and under. So if you  **Hannah:** Mm-hmm. **Michelle:** the thing. If you go to a general doctor or even an ob, they are a little more general in women's health.  **Hannah:** Yeah. **Michelle:** they're not going [00:39:00] to look at it the same way as an REI is gonna look at it, which is a reproductive endocrinologist and they're gonna  **Hannah:** Right.  **Michelle:** it a completely different perspective.  **Michelle:** Yeah, so it's, so those things I think a lot of people just don't realize and they're going in and they get the wrong information or they don't get like the full information and many years go by and it's kind of like, you know, that's why it's so important to really get ahead of it. **Hannah:** Yeah, absolutely. I think you're, you're worthy of feeling better, you know, if, does it have to be something that's chronic or.  **Michelle:** Right.  **Hannah:** Like full on disease state before just feeling better. **Michelle:** Yeah, for sure. So for people who, you know, are curious and wanna learn more about what you do,  **Michelle:** um, what are some of the things that you offer online? Where can people find you? I.  **Hannah:** So for people who are wanting to work one-on-one with me or maybe just start off with [00:40:00] a consultation or some have some labs done you can find me at through Pivot Nutrition Coaching. So the website is pivot nutrition coaching com. And then if, for my social media, I'm on Instagram with Hannah. **Michelle:** Awesome. I'll have all the notes anyway. If anybody like is curious or wants to know exactly how it's written out or find the link, you can find those on the episode notes. So Hannah, thank you so much for coming on today. It was a great conversation. I love really digging deep on just what goes on with these conditions that so many people hear about that are trying to conceive, but they don't really understand it. **Michelle:** And I think. There's so much power and knowledge and understanding and kind of like going beneath the surface. So I think this is one of the things that I like to do on the show is really to educate people on like really what's going on. So you've really shared some great, valuable information, so thank you so much, Hannah.[00:41:00]  **Hannah:** Thank you so much for having me and I, I think that this is such an important, important conversation to have and a valuable platform, so it's really an honor to be here. And hope we can chat again soon. **Michelle:** Thank you.         

On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome Kerry Hinds @fertilebodyyoga, founder of Fertile Body Yoga, who shares her inspiring fertility journey and how yoga became an essential part of her path to motherhood. Kerry opens up about her struggles with infertility, navigating IVF abroad, and ultimately conceiving naturally after stepping away from treatments. She also discusses the benefits of fertility yoga for calming the nervous system, enhancing blood flow, and creating a supportive environment for conception. In this episode, you'll learn how yoga can help balance your nervous system, why feeling safe is essential for fertility, and practical ways to integrate fertility yoga into your daily routine. This heartfelt conversation is filled with wisdom, hope, and practical tips for anyone on their fertility journey. Key Takeaways:  Kerry's personal fertility journey and challenges with IVF The pivotal moment when she conceived naturally after stepping away from treatments How fertility yoga supports the nervous system and reproductive health The importance of feeling safe and creating space within the body Practical tips on incorporating breathwork, movement, and mindfulness for fertility Guest Bio: Kerry Hinds @fertilebodyyoga is a certified E-RYT, RPYT, Relax and Renew® teacher, fertility yoga instructor, and Reiki practitioner. She founded Fertile Body Yoga to support individuals on their fertility journeys. Drawing from her personal experiences with fertility challenges, including undergoing treatments and experiencing pregnancy loss, Kerry offers compassionate guidance to her students. She leads weekly fertility yoga classes and provides various mind-body support programs through the Fertile Body Yoga Virtual Studio. Kerry is also the host of the "Fringe Fertility" podcast, where she explores holistic and alternative approaches to enhancing fertility. Websites/Social Media Links: Learn more about Kerry HindsFollow Kerry Hinds on Instagram Listen to her podcast: The Fringe Fertility For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle's book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ ---------------- Transcript: # TWF: Kerry Hinds [00:00:00] Episode number 329 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. My guest today is Carrie Hines. Carrie is the owner and founder of Fertile Body Yoga, a virtual yoga studio that is dedicated to supporting women navigating their fertility journey. She offers both live stream and on demand fertility yoga classes. and small group programs that embrace the complete journey physically, mentally, emotionally, energetically, spiritually, and socially. Carrie has been teaching yoga for over 20 years and has been specializing, teaching, and training almost solely fertility yoga for eight years. Her classes and offerings are informed by her own experiences with pregnancy loss, years of IVF, and eventually completing her family with two children. Carrie has supported thousands of women on their fertility journey so far and is on a mission to help women conceive and birth with yoga and community. Carrie also [00:01:00] hosts Fringe Fertility, a podcast that highlights supportive fertility practices beyond the doctor's office. **Michelle:** Welcome to the podcast. Carrie. I'm so happy to have you. **Kerry:** Thanks for having me, Michelle. I'm so happy to be here and spend some time with you today. **Michelle:** Yes. I would love for you to share your story first of all I love fertility yoga. I always suggest for my patients and my clients to do it It's something that I've personally myself have been really transformed by yoga in general. Many different types of yoga, a huge believer in it. And I also think that it's a, I call it an intelligent exercise. It's something that's been around for thousands of years and [00:02:00] really is a medicine in its own. So I would love for you to share your story and how you personally went through your own journey, but also how you combine fertility with yoga. **Kerry:** Okay. Yeah. I'll try and be a little bit concise cause I could go on and on for the, for a long time about this topic. But you know, as many listeners out there, you know, I didn't really start thinking about having kids till I was in my mid thirties. I took me a while to find the person I wanted to share my DNA with. Right. So when I did, we got married we moved to Germany and We went to Germany with the intention of this would be a good time for me to have kids. He's going to do his PhD. Germany has so many great social supports for families and so on. So we're like, Oh, it's just skim the cream off the top of that social system. And so when we got there, as often [00:03:00] happens, things don't go as planned when it comes to fertility. So we rolled into IUI. So we tried for six months, we found a clinic and. You know, we lived in old Eastern Germany, so it was hard to find English speaking doctors. So it was a very interesting time of my life. Not only was it just stressful in general dealing with what's going on and is this ever going to happen to living in another culture, another country? I didn't have a ton of support around, but then trying to navigate a new language that I was not fluent in. at all. So, I, you know, had one amazing friend there who spoke fluent, fluent German, American woman. And she's like,I will help you. And she went into those appointments with me, **Michelle:** oh **Kerry:** did all the **Michelle:** What a great friend **Kerry:** I know, I know. It was so amazing because I was so [00:04:00] lost at that time trying to figure out, like, just what's going on, but then how to say it in a different language or understand it in a different language. So for anybody who's doing this, fertility journey overseas or is here in North America It's not your mother tongue English, and you're trying to figure it out, I see you, I understand how this can add an extra level of stress to it. So we. You know, during that time, I actually went and did a yoga teacher training cause I was like, this isn't working. I want to do something for myself. So let's go get a yoga teacher training. I'd actually been teaching yoga for years before this was, so I've been teaching yoga for 20 years far before, This, you know, all these 200 hour yoga teacher trainings that, you know, you can sign up for one. No problem now. But back then it was your teacher [00:05:00] tapped you on the shoulder and said, Hey, do you want to be like, let's do this. And so that's kind of how I started yoga. But then when I was in Germany, I was like, okay, I need to, let's make this legit, right? Let's go get the training. I love it. I was teaching in Germany and so on. So that was sort of the, the main integration of the yoga into the fertility journey was just taking that bigger step to get the certification. And then, yeah, we went, we did IUIs. The first IUI was successful in that I got pregnant and, you know, 10 week ultrasound, there was no heartbeat. So we lost that baby. Yeah, and it was again, different culture, different bedside manners, different, it was just so stark. That's the word I could use for it. Shocking. It was just like, okay. The baby has no heartbeat. We're booking you in tomorrow for a DNC. Be there at 6 a. m. [00:06:00] You know, there was no time to, to, to absorb what was, to breathe, to figure out what I wanted. it was just like this snowball that was just like, okay, this has happened. You're going to do this. You're going to be better than you're going to start again. And you're going to keep trying and trying. So that's a whole other rabbit hole we could go down. But yeah, it was, it was a lot. It was a lot. And so we ended up going to do IVF, and this was, you know, 15 years ago. So things were maybe a little different than they are now. LikeICSI was just sort of a, more of a thing, right? It's Ooh, we're going to do this new cool thing. ICSI. I was like, okay. And they're like, and then there's embryo glue and we'll glue your embryo to your uterus. And it was all cutting edge at this time. And We did it. We did many cycles frozen cycles fresh cycles. Yeah, so many cycles and [00:07:00] nothing stuck, right? We had been doing IVF for two years and we kind of just paused and said, Is this, do we want to keep doing this?is this how we envision our life to be? And we wanted kids for sure, but we also wanted to start living our lives again. So that was a very pivotal moment in our journey is when we stepped away from IVF. We said, okay, we're done. I had gained weight. I wasn't feeling like myself. My body was weirdly puffy in different places and just, I was unhappy and I was emotional and I was just like, let's. Let's, let's walk away. And I remember my fertility doctor at the time, he said, you know, your chances of getting pregnant naturally are like one in a hundred million. Like you shouldn't be walking away from IVF. And I was like, you know, I'm okay. Like [00:08:00] I just, I need a break. And I walked away and a month and a half later I was pregnant. **Michelle:** Wow **Kerry:** intervention. And then nine months postpartum, I also was pregnant again by accident because we thought we had our miracle baby, right? So we were like, okay, whatever. And then I was pregnant again and through the whole journey, I was using yoga for my body, but more so for my energetic health, my mental, emotional health. So when we ended up coming back to the U S and moving to Boston, that was one of the first things I did. I did a prenatal yoga teacher training and I said, Hey, can we do fertility yoga? And she's like,I don't, I'm sure. I have no idea what it is. Tell me what it is. I'm like, either do I, but I'll get back to you. And that's sort of how the fertility yoga started. And [00:09:00] nobody was really doing it eight years ago. It was, **Michelle:** It's true **Kerry:** Like, there was nothing. There was a few people, there was a couple books out on it but I really spent a lot of time explaining. what it was that we were trying to do when we were doing like a fertility focused yoga practice. So that's kind of the story. That's the evolution. **Michelle:** Well, I love the story. I don't love that you went through the suffering through the story But I love the fact that you can it Prove with your story that when people tell you when you hear from doctors that you have one in a million chance or whatever that is, that is not necessarily the truth. That is their opinion. They say it very factually, and I think that that's where it gets very confusing for people. They say it very factually, and I'm not dismissing what doctors say because a lot of times it could be very accurate or they can, but I, I, what I don't love is Is when things are predicted because the body can be [00:10:00] so unpredictable. And it can also show so many signs that defy what it's going to do. So that's where, you know, I say just have an open mind or getting a second opinion is great. So, but I do love hearing those stories because I think when people who are going through that now and are probably listening to fertility podcasts because they want to get. Answers and hear other people's stories and when they hear stories like that it sparks some hope in their hearts So I think that that's really important **Kerry:** Yeah, I often get Students they'll ask me well what was it like right because this is what we want This is people don't want to do IVF if they don't have to and they're like, what was it? what happened and I was like, I cannot tell you I can't tell you a hundred percent that it was the yoga that I was doing or you know All the other lifestyle changes I was doing but something came [00:11:00] together You magically all together at the right time and this baby happened and if I had to choose one word for it, it would be exhale because there was this feeling that my body was no longer having to perform like it felt safe because I wasn't going in for you know, all these procedures and like they're. You know, minimally invasive, but you're still like vaginal ultrasounds and people poking around down there and all the operations that come with it. Anesthesia, all those sorts of things. And yeah, it's, it's a lot. So my body was like, whew, thank you. Thank you. Let me just be. And I think the mental piece was just like that. I wasn't going to go back to it. At least anytime soon. So my, my body was actually believing [00:12:00] me, right? And I don't think it's It's something that you can fake. It's not a time, like I had to go through those two years of IVF and pregnancy loss to get to that point. I don't think that there's we can't just kind of skip over it and be like, Oh, I'm just going to think this now and I'm going to get pregnant naturally. So it's a process. That's it. you know, everybody's journey is different and we just need to give ourselves a little bit of space sometimes to integrate what's going on and give our bodies that exhale, which is so important. Mm. **Michelle:** I love that you say that because actually exhaling longer can simulate your, parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest mode, which many times the majority of us in response to life are in the fight or flight mode. And especially when we feel unsafe. And I love that you use the word safe because when we feel unsafe, Then [00:13:00] we're really not in a creative mode. We don't create even like mentally when we're not feeling safe. **Kerry:** Yeah. **Michelle:** When we feel safe, we're able to create, we're able to let go and our body's able to create, and that's a, it's a state of growth. So I love that you talk about that. And I think that one of the commonalities between yoga and acupuncture, which actually they're related in  many ways. And because it's really about moving the energy because yoga is connected to Ayurveda. Ayurveda has Marma points and yoga is actually a branch of Ayurveda. it's part of the medicine of the physicality of the body and moving the energy. **Kerry:** Yep. **Michelle:** Qigong is sort of the yoga of Chinese medicine. So it's very related. And I think one of the biggest commonalities or one of the ways I think it really works is it's all about the nervous system. **Kerry:** 100 percent it, the nervous system. Like when I, [00:14:00] even these days I, when I'm talking to somebody, I'm like, I'm talking to a person. Yes. But I'm interacting with a nervous system. So with the words that I'm saying my body language or how I look at them, right? Like it, it all is interacting with third nervous system. So how are we working with nervous systems? And when we show up, in fertility world supporting people. For me, the huge part of fertility yoga is how do we harness this parasympathetic, I call it rest, digest and reproduce. That's what I call it, just  **Michelle:** Yeah. I love that. Yes. **Kerry:** Because what it is, it **Michelle:** Yup. **Kerry:** It's what yoga is so good at, sadly, right? Like our Western culture view of yoga has been a little focused almost exclusively on exercise and gymnastic style yoga. But [00:15:00] really traditionally, like you said, it was about the marma. It was about the energetic lines running through you and wherever you find that imbalance, you can work with the energetic field to create balance again. And as you know, the Marma points and acupuncture and pressure points are like following very similar lines and it's powerful. But it's subtle, right?  **Michelle:** Right. it's **Kerry:** explain. Yeah, like it's hard to explain exactly what's happening but it is, it's so powerful and it can really be transformative for how we, how we navigate the journey as embracing that, the quiet side, the quiet side of things. **Michelle:** Yes. And I think that the way we connect with it is through feeling. Right. Because that is ultimately how we do it, but we can't feel or pay attention to what we're feeling when we're distracted all the time by the noise of the world. So we're constantly disrupted by the [00:16:00] noise. It's very disrupting actually for our nervous system. We don't realize it because we're so used to it. You could be used to things that are really not healthy for you and listen, you know, hearing the outside noise. And the loud noises of construction, you know, the normal life, if you're living in the city, the constant sirens and honking, and, you know, those things are actually very taxing on the nervous system. And they put us in a fight or flight mode because our bodies don't really recognize them isn't in the natural world. So it stimulates a more fight and flight response. So having that counter balance with practices like yoga. In calming the nervous system. And what I love about yoga is that it includes breath, all the things that really stimulate the vagus nerve mantra sound. So you're able to tune your vibration and breath. Which is also very calming because if you exhale longer, like there's certain controlled breath [00:17:00] where you're able to control your brain through breath and even movement, somatic energy work and emotions that we can at least much more easily, like that control, but manage with our  bodies.  **Kerry:** Yeah. I couldn't say it better myself, Michelle. That was perfect. I think one thing, right, like we, we, we know that the fertility journey is stressful. We know that life is stressful. We know that we're probably living in a heightened state in our sympathetic more than we, we would like to. And yeah, the yoga piece can just. hit so many things. And one thing we need to remember is that we are created like evolutionarily are, you know, we are more attuned to the stresses, right? For survival. So the loud, the loud noises, it [00:18:00] alerts us to look around and see, Oh, is there something coming for me? Or the bright lights and things like that. Like we're just constantly Like our bodies are looking out to keep us safe all the time. And we're tuned to that, right, that our bodies are naturally tuned to go in that direction. And there's way more stimuli that will take us that way. And then with the other side, the parasympathetic, we have to work harder and more intentionally to go there. And I think that is one of the things that is the hardest is you actually need to train the system to be more fluid. It's not the stress isn't going to go away. Stress isn't going to go away, but if you are training your nervous system to float more evenly back and forth between the two and taking the time to go parasympathetic as best that you can, whether it's with the breath or [00:19:00] with yoga or going for a walk in nature or anything like that You're rebalancing, but we have to make more effort that is just the way we're, we're built. And yeah, like things that will help us be calmer are like dim lights, quietude, support. So like lying down flat. So our body doesn't have to be alert, like even sitting, we have to be alert.  So we might not fall over weight. Unless you're claustrophobic, of course so yeah, there's lots of things that we can add, and yoga does that. Restorative yoga, which is a huge piece of how I teach fertility yoga it, that is what it does. those are the things that we're embracing when we do restorative yoga.  **Michelle:** I love restorative yoga. **Kerry:** Me too.  **Michelle:** Oh, it feels so good. It really just feels so good. And you know what? I love to. I remember taking a yoga class and the teacher after we're laying in Shavasana said, allow the ground to support [00:20:00] you. And I'm like, just the thought of that changes. My experience laying down right now **Kerry:** Yes. Yes I say that too in my yoga classes or I'm like the earth is coming up to hold you and you Let the earth hold you like it's like a two way street. It's like here I am I'm here, but you need to let go into it too. Yeah, it, there's so many wonderful things about restorative yoga. I mean, it's not the only part of fertility yoga the way I teach it, but it is definitely a huge part of what I like to emphasize to help train the nervous system that like,  Oh, Oh, I remember this place of calm and safety, right? And then if we can condition it with at the beginning of every Shavasana or every restorative yoga pose, you do three big, deep breaths, long exhales. The body then starts to put it all together. and [00:21:00] say, Oh, when she takes three big, long, deep breaths, it's time to relax. It's time to release and let go. So we can, there's so much we could do to support ourselves on that level, I think. But yeah, society makes it hard. **Michelle:** Right, so it's almost like a triggering relaxation response To something that you repeat over and over again I always say likeif you do meditation and you burn a specific incense That's clean or something that I'm even in the central oil Like diffuse a specific one every single time you start to meditate you're immediately going to It's almost like pavlov's dog. You're always going to associate it with meditation time and our scent brings us Right there because it's so connected our olfactory nerve, which is really responsible for our sense of smell Is connected to our brains directly **Kerry:** Yeah. And certain smells will be more grounding and, you know, so choose your smells. wisely, I would say, you know, where like,citrus [00:22:00] and high notes are a little bit more stimulating where like the deeper tones like sandalwood and like the earthy green trees, those sorts of things can just be really calming. And then plus the volatile oils that are in evergreen trees are calming to the nervous system. **Michelle:** Yeah. It's not amazing. **Kerry:** You know, so why not put those in your diffuser like use all the tools that you can and and and then things smell good **Michelle:** Yeah.  **Kerry:** like  I just  **Michelle:** who doesn't like that? **Kerry:** Yeah Yeah, **Michelle:** That's awesome. So just take people through, likeif they've never really heard of fertility yoga, like what differentiates fertility yoga from regular yoga  or other types of yoga? **Kerry:** Whoo. So the first I would say are the people that are in the class so it is just really dedicated to holding space for those that are trying to conceive and it can be anybody from, Oh, I'm just [00:23:00] thinking about it, but I, my periods have been a little weird all my life. I just want to get in tune with my body to those who have, you know, eighth round of IVF, like really deep into the journey. So I think the community piece is really important because, People like to be seen and understood. And when we do a check in at the beginning of our classes, even though it's online and there's all these little squares and so on on the Zoom room, people, you see people nodding and oh, and like sending hearts and doing all the things. And just creating community around that as opposed to if you went to a regular yoga class and you walked up to your teacher and said, Oh, by the way, I'm doing a stim cycle right now. They're not going to know what to do with you. They're not going to know how to keep you safe, nor are they going to know how to nurture that part of the cycle. So that's the 2nd piece is. Becoming or recognizing [00:24:00] where you are in your cycle and then matching the energies of that time. So follicular phase is a little more. Woo woo, woo hoo, right? Springtime, and follicles are growing, you have more energy because of the hormones, and an ovulation, you're just like the queen bee, right? So these are the energies that we would say, okay, if you're in the follicular phase, you're gonna do this twist, and so on, and blah blah blah. And then you would say, okay, oh, you're in the luteal phase, things are a little quieter, You might be pregnant, you're in the two week wait, you're post transfer, you're stimming, like all these things, then we need to be a little quieter with the body and give the pelvic area a little bit more space. So we would work with that and do some modifications for that. So really following the cycle. So when I'm teaching, I'm constantly, Okay, if you're in the follicular phase, you're going to do this. If you're in the luteal phase, you're going to [00:25:00] do this. So not only am I keeping people safe, but I'm also like finding the nourishing pieces as well. So it's like,I'm boosting that energy and keeping you safe where you wouldn't be able to do that in a regular class. And then the movement piece. Is really just like slow flow, somatic movement, a lot of it's pelvic centered, but not always because we hold tension and all different places in our body, the chakra system, the energetic system, right? We want it flowing as well as possible for many reasons. So it's lots of ooey gooey, juicy sort of moves in and around the pelvis. So what else did I forget? Oh, and of course the yoga wisdom part of it, right? The energetics, the, the wisdom. So I teach, I'm very thematic when I teach. So I will choose a theme and it may [00:26:00] come from yoga. For example, I did a class or I'm doing a series right now. We're doing an elemental series. So it's five weeks. Perfect. Five elements. Let's do this in yoga anyway, or in Ayurveda. So I'm like, we started with earth, like, why is earth, why is grounding important in fertility, then water and fire and so on. So, yeah, just bringing a new perspective into it, like something to be like, oh, okay, I get it. I get that, I need to be grounded and feel safe for fertility to I don't want to say be boosted, but to be, to feel safe, your body, or to be working at full capacity, whatever is happening in your body, your body needs to feel safe for the fertility hormones. Whew.  **Michelle:** I'm sure there's a lot more even that you might not even realize it, you know, because when we feel safe, I [00:27:00] mean, there's so many things that our bodies naturally do. And our bodies are so intelligent. And it puts us into a growth cycle in general, like our bodies are able to regenerate and repair when it feels like it's getting rest, the proper rest. So, also uh, something that I've noticed, and I do have some patients, it's really interesting because it kind of correlates with jaw tension, but it usually correlates with hip tension. **Kerry:** Hip and pelvic floor, probably. Yeah. **Michelle:** And so that's something that I always think about with fertility yoga is really kind of like getting that area more free because it correlates to the first and second chakra. And the first chakra is really that rooted chakra, the place that we feel safe, and that holds up the second chakra, which is really where our fertility is. So in order to have that active, you know, it depends on that foundation of safety. **Kerry:** Yeah. **Michelle:** So also the blood flow, I'm [00:28:00] sure. **Kerry:** Oh, yeah. Yeah. See, there's so much. I like so many things. But yeah, so that somatic slow flow movement that's pelvic centered, of course, it's like, it's energetic, like bringing energy in and like moving energy, which is really important when we're in our lifestyle of sitting stagnant a lot of the time. And yeah, the blood flow, Like this gentle squeeze and release, right? Like it's constantly bringing in new oxygenated blood into the organs of the pelvis. And I think often in yoga, we don't think, we don't think about the organ level. when we're moving our bodies. And that's what I love about the Ayurvedic yoga. It's more okay, this is happening in your body. let's look at the liver, right? So you're doing side bends and the liver and the spleen and just incorporating more of those, organs, like the systems of the body. It's not just about. the [00:29:00] large muscle groups and releasing tension, which feels great and is lovely and good for energy and marma points and things like that. But we can also work at the organ level and the hormonal level. **Michelle:** Yeah, for sure. And do you also include pranayama? Yeah. **Kerry:** I do breath work. I don't do we're going to do half an hour pranayama every time, but I will integrate breath work or pranayama techniques. When they're suited for the theme or what we're doing with our bodies, sometimes mudra as well. So like, let's, Which is our hand gesture. Yeah. It's like a seal. **Michelle:** again, see, it relates to the meridians and the energetic connections in the body. It's like our body's like a circuit. So putting our fingers together in certain positions will actually link that circuit and, and have it continue. **Kerry:** Yeah, yeah, and [00:30:00] I was never really into mudras  for quite a while of my yoga journey like I was like Oh, yeah, let's I'm gonna stick my fingers together do whatever all the things that you know Yeah, mudra and so on that you see all the time and then someone actually sat down and we we I learned and I experimented with like slowly touching your fingers together and then like you know, do you want to increase something or decrease something, et cetera. And it was actually very profound.  And that energetic piece, I believe it, and it's now Ayurveda as well. And in yoga, energy is the thing that connects. The element that connects body and mind. Right. We're always talking about body and mind, but what is it that's, that's going on to connect those two? It's the energetic body. And pretty soon I am hoping western science will get on [00:31:00] board. It slowly **Michelle:** It is. It's really fascinating. I mean, that's a lot of Dr. Joe dispenses. He's always talking about like energy frequencies, and he talks about how we can connect and he does a lot of scientific research on it actually. So he looks at the brain waves and how they respond to certain meditations and certain energy movements. He does also breath a specific breath. And a lot of people have Kundalini awakenings. That's what it, I mean, he doesn't call it that. He talks about it more scientific and he talks about chakras. He doesn't call it chakras. He calls it energy centers. And it's basically the same thing that we've been, you know, we've been taught years ago, thousands of years ago. And ultimately, I mean, people are having Kundalini rising. They, they see this light, they feel this incredible energy just shooting through their spine from the base. It opens up cause that's where the Kundalini of people haven't really learned about that. They say that there's this [00:32:00] dormant energy at the root of your spine. That's always there, but it's sleeping. And so sometimes  doing. Yep. And when we do breath work or certain types of exercises, it can actually awaken that when that awakens, a lot of people have spontaneous healing, spontaneous remission, and it's really fascinating. So his work is also very much based on quantum physics. And if you look at a lot of the old work and teachings of ancient cultures. They describe pretty much what we're learning as quantum physics. And it ultimately comes down to the fact that we are mostly energy and much, much, much, much less matter than we really think we are. We're like 0. 0000001. It's like a million tons of zeros. And then one, that's how our matter is. And if we actually Take it like the space actually is way more in between the [00:33:00] particles in our bodies and just what we  see. So it's kind of like an illusion. It's really fascinating. So we really are vibratory beings, which is why vibration sound really impacts our bodies. I can nerd. I  **Kerry:** I, I'm going to go, I'm going  to,  **Michelle:** all day long. **Kerry:** I know me too. Well, I, well, there's two things I wanted to talk about, but first I want to talk about space and spaciousness, openness. And I often say to my students, like magic happens in the space. So when we think about the body, We need space in our body, openness, spaciousness, for our body to function, right? between the synapses, there's a little gap, right? It's tiny,  but it's there. And that we have, we need to have space, the womb, let's not forget, that is space. openness, spaciousness, [00:34:00] right? we have to have space in our digestive track and air and things like that to keep it moving. And now I'm like going off the deep end and also Ayurveda of course, right? anything that is moving in our body is the air and ether element and ether is spaciousness, it's openness. And so I often emphasize this idea you in class of creating space. When we move our pelvis, we're creating space. We're opening up, we're releasing blocked energy, if you will, or like stagnant blood, like we are getting things moving. And when things are moving, the magic happens, right? Like the space, we need that spaciousness. Oh yeah. I  **Michelle:** that.  **Kerry:** Yeah. The **Michelle:** Well, it's, it's so cool. I mean, cause, cause that's one of the things that Joe Dispenza does is he first, he almost puts you in an induction with his [00:35:00] meditations and he says space, and he wants you to focus on like this endless space. But the reason why is there's a rhyme. There's a reason for everything that he does is that when our minds focus on space, it actually creates. I don't know how to how he described it. Actually. I mean, I go to so many of his stuff, but I don't remember everything but he said that when you do that, I think it takes you almost to a different mind. Mental frequency brainwave when you start to focus on space. **Kerry:** Well, so Yoga Nidra, which we had talked about previously, but Yoga Nidra, which is like a 5, 000 year old technique that the yogis came up with it is about, it is about that. It is about slowing down your brainwave to delta wave, which is what your brainwaves would be like if you were in deep sleep. And why do we love deep sleep so much? Because that's when we heal, that's when we [00:36:00] process and calibrate and so on. Our organs are doing their cleaning up and all that and it's so important and it's definitely related to fertility that deep sleep state. And Yeah, with Yoga Nidra, we're purposefully going there, but being conscious when we're there. So it's an experience that we would never do. We would never get to that state on our, on our own naturally. Like we'd either be in deep sleep or we wouldn't be in Delta. So this is what I love about Yoga Nidra. And like you were saying, just even the concept of thinking about. Space or expansiveness or you know, you're in an airplane, you look out the window and all you see is infinite space. it never ends. It just goes on and on and on. Right. But yeah, it does, slow us down. It slows down the brainwave so we can get out of the, the gamma or the, you know what we're in right now [00:37:00] talking. **Michelle:** Yes. And it also gives you a sense of freedom. You just feel this like sense of peace and freedom from that space. Cause then you're like, ah, you know, there's just so much, and there's so many possibilities and it's open. And so for people actually who have not heard of yoga, Nidra, can you explain what it is exactly? **Kerry:** Okay. So yoga nidra, like I said, it's thousands of years old. It has so many benefits. I mean, it's so many like deep healing, but also like physical deep healing, but also mental emotional. So it takes, you know, sort of these deeply ingrained, maybe even ancestral patterns that we have, we can start to change those patterns. The body can process all of those things. It's so, it's. It's, it's the Soma we say in yoga, it's the sweet nectar. [00:38:00] It's the nectar that we want for our bodies, especially during fertility, but also to for overall health and longevity. We want to have that sweetness and that nectar in us. And what I use it for, I do a ton of Yoga Nidra in classes. It is It is a progressive deep relaxation technique. It that it has been, Huberman has taken it and called it non sleep deep rest because it's more palpable to Western mind. So it's been an eye rest and all these things. So it's yoga nidra has been taken and repackaged in many different ways for our Western minds. I love the traditional one. Of course, I'm sure you probably do too. And. Yeah, you just, you go  ## Marker **Kerry:** progressively to put your body to sleep. So you go through body parts and you relax those body parts and we can, instill or implant a message. [00:39:00] We call it sankalpa, but you can call it whatever you want. Affirmation, it's not quite the right word. Intention maybe of what deep healing you want to happen. And that's sort of implanted throughout the deep relaxation part. And then yoga nidra is actually a state. It's not the progress of getting there. So yoga nidra is when you are, your body's asleep, you're conscious. But your brain is in these sort of Delta waves and sometimes you get there, sometimes you don't, and sometimes the journey is joyful to, to get there too, right? So it's not oh, you have to get to that state to get any benefit. You're still getting all that parasympathetic work going on. The body feels safe and protected. And most people feel very blissful. afterwards, they often say, Oh, it's like hypnotic that there's like this [00:40:00] hypnosis. And my voice too, I think it's like low and like kind of slow and steady. They're like, Oh, I just hear your voice and I start to relax. Right. So it is a really powerful tool. And if I were to choose one thing, like people say, what yoga pose should I do to help my fertility? If I could choose one thing I would say do Yoga Nidra for at least 40 days straight **Michelle:** Yeah, **Kerry:** and see what happens. I think it's perfect. And I have a program, 40 days, a 40 day program where you have the option to do Yoga Nidra every day if you wanted to, or meditation. So yeah, it's, it's perfect. It's really powerful. really **Michelle:** is so cool. And I'm excited actually to have you as a guest contributor to my fertility hypnosis toolbox. Soon. I know a lot of people, listeners are probably on there, so you guys I'll be very excited. I think by the [00:41:00] time this is out, probably going to  **Kerry:** it. to you. I promise. I will do it. I feel honored  **Michelle:** have time. you have time.  **Kerry:** Yeah, I  know. But I wanted to make it, this is me. I want to make it, I don't want to just maybe take an old recording that, you know, It's, you know, been out there for a while. Like I want to make new things for you and also like, where do we need the yoga nidra the most? Like the two week wait, perfect time, um, after law. So you know, I want to theme them so that there's it hits home for what people need the most. **Michelle:** Well, I'm so grateful for that and I'm grateful for this conversation. I think this is awesome. I can nerd out on this stuff  **Kerry:** too. Me too. Me too. I **Michelle:** I think we're on the same page. **Kerry:** I am **Michelle:** fascinating.  **Kerry:** nerdy about it. And, **Michelle:** Yeah. **Kerry:** and, I mean, I know, I love what you do. All the messaging that you're sending out there to those that are on this journey, I think it's so valuable and, [00:42:00] and needed. we need more voices that are like, here, right? here, **Michelle:**  the ancient stuff, kind of like the bridging that ancient wisdom, that ancient nurturing, really connecting with nature. Cause I know that you also are a big fan of nature and being out in nature. And I think that really just kind of coming home to like our authentic authenticity of, as humans, and sort of the tribalness that, you know, coming home to really our roots and the sacredness that we have also as women. I think that that's there's so much power in that. And I think that a lot of people are thirsting for that. And that's why I nerd out on this. I say, it's you know, I could say my brain nerds out now, but I think my soul nerds **Kerry:** Mm. Oh, I love that. Yes, my soul nerds out on it. That is so good. I love that. I'm gonna use it  if I  can't  **Michelle:** said, well, Carrie, like I, we had such a great conversation also on your podcast, **Kerry:** yes  **Michelle:** guys. Yes. I highly recommend you guys [00:43:00] check out her podcasts. Fringe fertility. So it is definitely like something that I highly suggest. Cause you're going to get more of this amazing conversation on there and she has other guests on there. So yeah, very  **Kerry:** thanks for the shout out for the podcast. Thank you. Yeah. Well, it was a pleasure to be here today and sharing this conversation. I could just do it forever and ever. **Michelle:** for sure. And also before we go, how can people find you? What are the best ways? **Kerry:** sure. So yeah, I have a website Fertile Body Yoga. So it's a virtual yoga studio dedicated to fertility. So fertilebodyyoga. com. That's probably the, the lead in place to find me. I'm on Instagram as well. I'm not a huge Instagrammer though. And lately, I'm feeling like I just might need to walk away because for my mental health. But I do have an Instagram account. It is fertile body yoga there. And yeah, like I'm always doing [00:44:00] some great collaborative workshops and I have a retreat coming up at the end of April. You can cut this out if it's not the right timing, but so an in person retreat in New Hampshire at the end of April with. Two lovely co creators. So that, that's the big thing. That is huge. This has been years in the making and it's  finally  **Michelle:** That's so exciting. Well, congratulations. That's really cool. **Kerry:** Yeah. Thank you. **Michelle:** Awesome. Well, Carrie, this has been a pleasure and we really do have great conversations. I could tell you that we definitely are very aligned in a lot of the way we view the body and really view the fertility journey. And also thank you for sharing your own experience and now sharing your story. Cause I think that a lot of people will be inspired by that as well. So thank you so much. This has been amazing. Perfect.  **Kerry:** Thank you. for having me.[00:45:00] [00:46:00]     

If you want to get support directly from us to grow your podcast, join our FREE community: The CoachCast AcademyIn this episode, Justin interviews Michelle Oh, co-founder of Roll AI, a groundbreaking platform for podcasters. Michelle dives into how Roll AI leverages advanced technology to transform your phone into a powerful recording tool, delivering Netflix quality video with ease. She also highlights the platform's AI driven features that help to simplify the post production process. If you want to elevate your podcast's video quality without investing in expensive gear, this episode is a must listen.Key Topics Discussed:Advantages of using a phone's back cameraFeatures on the Roll AI platformAI advancements in video editingPhone cameras vs. DSLR camerasFuture developments of Roll AIOur Partners:Find guests for your show and get paid for interviewing them with PodMatchTurn your podcast into tons of content automatically with CastMagic.ai

Dr. Angela Thyer and Judy Simon discuss their book 'Getting to Baby' and the importance of nutrition and lifestyle in fertility. They share their backgrounds and how they came together to help women improve their nutrition and health for better fertility outcomes. The book covers the connection between food and fertility, the importance of whole foods, debunking misconceptions about diet and fertility, and the benefits of intuitive eating and cooking. They emphasize the need for diversity in food choices and the impact of processed foods on fertility. The book also includes practical tips and recipes to support a healthy pregnancy journey. The conversation covers topics such as the importance of breakfast and meal timing, the impact of nutrition on fertility, the role of integrative medicine in fertility treatment, and the power of lifestyle choices in influencing fertility outcomes. The guests emphasize the importance of combining foods and the role of vegetables in supporting digestion and overall health. They also discuss the impact of stress, sleep, and epigenetics on fertility. The conversation highlights the need for a multidisciplinary approach to fertility treatment and the importance of finding a supportive healthcare team.   Takeaways Nutrition and lifestyle play a crucial role in fertility and improving fertility outcomes. Eating whole foods, including a variety of fruits, vegetables, plant-based proteins, and whole grains, is important for fertility. There are many misconceptions about diet and fertility, such as the need to cut out carbs or follow specific diets. It's important to focus on nourishing the body with whole foods. Intuitive eating and cooking skills are valuable in creating a healthy and sustainable approach to nutrition. Diversity in food choices is essential for optimal fertility and overall health. Processed foods can negatively impact fertility, and it's important to prioritize whole foods. The book provides practical tips, recipes, and a six-week blueprint to support a healthy pregnancy journey. Breakfast is an important meal for fertility and overall health. It is best to have a substantial breakfast with protein, fiber, and vegetables. Meal timing is crucial, and it is recommended to have more calories earlier in the day and fewer at night. Combining foods, especially vegetables, can support digestion and nutrient absorption. Stress, sleep, and lifestyle choices have a significant impact on fertility outcomes. Epigenetics plays a role in fertility, and lifestyle choices can influence gene expression. A multidisciplinary approach to fertility treatment, including integrative medicine, can provide comprehensive support. Finding a supportive healthcare team is essential for navigating the fertility journey.   Guest Bio: Judy Simon Judy Simon, MS, RDN, CD, CHES is an award winning registered dietitian nutritionist who specializes in reproductive health. She is the founder of Mind Body Nutrition, PLLC and a clinical instructor at the University of Washington. Judy's expertise includes fertility, PCOS, eating disorders, weight inclusive medicine and reproductive health.  Judy has held leadership roles in the American Society of Reproductive Medicine Nutrition Special Interest Group and is a Fellow of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics.  Judy integrates mindfulness, intuitive eating, eating competence, while taking a non-judgmental, inclusive down approach to help people have healthier, more fertile lives.  Judy is the co-founder of Food For Fertility program and co-author of the upcoming (April, 2024) book Getting to Baby A Food-first Fertility Plan to Improve Your Odds and Shorten Your Time to Pregnancy, Ben Bella Publisher   Guest Bio: Angela Thyer Angela Thyer, MD is board certified in Reproductive Endocrinology and Infertility, Ob/Gyn and Lifestyle Medicine. She is a founding partner of Seattle Reproductive Medicine. Dr. Thyer completed her undergraduate education at Duke University, medical school at the University of Cincinnati College of Medicine, residency at Oregon Health and Science University, and fellowship at the University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio. She completed The Culinary Coaching program through the Institute of Lifestyle Medicine in 2020 and became a certified plant-based chef through Rouxbe in 2022. She and Judy Simon, MS, RDN created the Food for Fertility program and have co-authored a book coming out in 2024, Getting to Baby: A Food-First Fertility Plan to Improve Your Odds and Shorten Your Time to Pregnancy which highlights the best foods to optimize fertility.   Website & Social media links (Facebook, instagram, twitter)   Instagram: @angelathyermd Website: angelathyermd.com     For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   Click here to find out how to get the first chapter of "The Way of Fertility" for free.   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/         Transcript:   Michelle: So Angela and Judy, welcome. Angela: Thank you so much. We're excited to be here, Michelle. Michelle: So I'd love for you guys to give a background first. , I'm very excited to be talking about your new book, Getting to Baby. I would love for you first to share your background so people can know more about you and what got you to doing this type of work. Angela: Okay. Sure. I'm a reproductive endocrinologist and infertility specialist. So first I trained in OBGYN and then specialized in reproductive endocrine and infertility. And then I got board certified in lifestyle medicine. So, which is a more holistic kind of way to look at all healthcare, more of a preventive lens of like, how can we look at lifestyle measures to, you know, really help people in all phases of their life. Angela: And I've always been interested in food, nutrition, exercise. And so over the years, it just became a bigger and[00:01:00] bigger part of my practice. And I've always been interested in obviously hormones, but metabolism and Judy and I started working together at the university of Washington. And we found we had this common interest in really helping women, you know, work together to improve their nutrition and health, which subsequently leads to improvement in their fertility. Michelle: Oh, totally. Judy: And I'm a registered dietitian, as Angela mentioned, and my master's is in community health education. And I sort of went through traditional training, and when I came back and re entered, you know, medicine, gosh, about 20 ish years ago, all of a sudden, PCOS and all these things that I had never really learned about just came front and forward. Judy: And so I was fortunate to connect up with Angela and really do the deep dive into, Hey, what do we know about insulin resistance? How is this affecting fertility? And these were things that traditionally I hadn't been taught. [00:02:00]So really, I think we kind of joined each other's worlds. You know, I joined American Society of Reproductive Medicine and, you know, joined all the fertility docs. Judy: And You know, Angela would come to the nutrition conferences. So we did a lot of cross pollination and from that we went off and both started into private practices and she'd refer these amazing patients and we decided, wow, we're seeing them one at a time. Wouldn't it just be the coolest thing if we could start classes? Judy: So about 12 ish years ago, we started the food for fertility classes where we brought women in who were trying to conceive. Many of them had PCOS, endometriosis. unexplained, lots of different diagnosis. And that's who we brought the food and the people and the lifestyle into the classroom, which is really why we wrote the book. Judy: It's kind of, we took all our years of experience, science and knowledge and said, let's make it accessible to more people. Michelle: That's awesome. And so [00:03:00] talk about the book. What's in the book? And obviously it's for people trying to conceive, getting to baby. What were the top things?  Angela: Yeah. Well, we, we started off by, you know, kind of, we always want people to understand the whys, you know, why this, why that what's the connection, what's the underlying biology and physiology? And then what evidence do we know? A lot of nutritional studies about fertility or observational studies, like they'll a population will be observed and they'll say, okay, people who ate these kinds of diets or these kinds of foods had higher fertility and more successful outcomes than people who ate this kind of diet. Angela: So, you know, we, we want to, wanted to present all that information. So people kind of have background and good knowledge and can kind of say, oh, okay, well. Maybe that would be a good idea for me. You know, it's not, it's, it's a broad spectrum of what, you know, a good diet could look like. It's not just one thing. Angela: Obviously [00:04:00] mainly plant forward. Cause I think we all need to eat more fruits and vegetables and plant based foods. But there is room, you know, for some animal foods too, especially things like fish and whole fat dairy, which have shown to increase some fertility benefits. So, you know, we kind of go through all the food groups and talk about what's, what we, where we have evidence, what's good, what's not so good and what vitamins and minerals and nutrients they're adding. Angela: And then, you know, some of the biggest things that we're like, if you want to incorporate this, it's a really, it's a how to. Right. So we wanted to make it like accessible in this sense that anybody at home could be like, Oh, okay. I, gosh, I just want to add one little thing this week. What would I add? What can, what's my takeaway? Angela: What's my smart goal? So people can kind of set their own goals and try to move forward with that, making a little progress at a time. And then the greatest thing I think is sharing stories from our patients who are just fabulous[00:05:00] women who've been on their own journey. And we had so many stories, we couldn't even share them all in the book. Angela: But kind of telling these journeys that sometimes took months, sometimes took years and how they were able to incorporate changes and see changes in themselves. and feel increased energy and then kind of have improved fertility. Maybe if they had a partner, you know, their partner's health was also improving at the same time. Angela: And so many of them were successful either With natural conception, or if they were infertility treatments, having better success in those treatments and making better quality embryos that we were like, wow, you know, that's really what's in the book. So as much as we could share and keep it accessible and reasonable in length. Angela: That's, that's what the book's about. Michelle: I found it very user friendly and I really enjoyed the image of the plate and how half of it was greens, which is great because I do believe that it's so important to get the greens. And there's so many nutrients that you can get[00:06:00] from that. And you talked about some misconceptions too, like on treating PCOS and like common misconceptions on what to eat for fertility. Michelle: So I'd love to touch upon that. Judy: Yeah, well, one of the things that we tried to bring out in the book is when we first started doing our classes, a lot of the reasons women would be referred to us as we'll just go lose weight. So nothing, you know, focusing on their health and we're like, Oh no, no, no, this is not a weight loss class. Judy: This is totally about how to nourish yourself. And actually. Take away the shame and guilt in, you know, whatever size body you have being able to get the benefits of the nutrition and the lifestyle. Right? So, for example there's a lot of people that would come in with a whole list of foods that they thought they shouldn't eat because somebody told them that. Judy: And we're like, well, are you allergic to them? No. Well, okay, you know, here's a safe And that's what we tried to do in the [00:07:00] book. Like showing in all these different, you know, sure, maybe you can't tolerate dairy. Here's a sub, here's something else you can, you can place out so that everybody would feel included, that anybody could be in the classes, read the book and really get the benefit out of it. Judy: So when, when you talk about myths, probably the biggest one is, you know so many women are told cut out carbs. Cut out carbs and we're like, Oh no. Well, what's in whole grains and ancient grains. We know those inositols we hear about in PCOS. Guess where they come from? White beans, buckwheat. So we're saying where can you get these ancient grains are just so filled with minerals and also really showing that looking at the quality of carbs that you're choosing most of the time is actually going to be beneficial. Judy: And this is kind of relief for women to hear like, I don't have to starve myself. I get to eat and try new things. Michelle: Yeah. That's such a good point. And also, cause a [00:08:00] lot of times when people have carbs, it's simple carbs or juices where you're taking basically, even if it's fresh juices, like we're really meant to have the whole fruit, right? The fiber like, and digest it slowly so that it's not a sugar spike. I'd love for you to talk about that too, the importance of, of actually having the whole food. Angela: Yeah, we definitely talk about kind of it being a whole food diet because that is so important and The issue with I mean, yes, you can get some of the nutrients if you juice But you're also gonna get mainly sugar without the fiber if you've removed the fiber. So the fiber is so important both to slow down your digestion and really pay attention to gut health. Angela: And I know you focus a lot on gut health. You know, that's where so much of our health overall starts. And there's so many connections between the gut and the mind and the body and the hormones and everything else, every, every system. And so, having that [00:09:00] fiber in your diet, really from whole foods. I mean, especially plant based foods, right? Angela: Because animal foods don't have fiber, but the plant based foods really then is is great food for the microbiomes, the microbiome, our microbiome and the bacteria, the 3 trillion bacteria that live in our gut. And it helps create, you know, it's more anti inflammatory because so many people kind of can get. Angela: almost a chronic inflammation from not eating enough fiber, not feeding their microbiome. And then that can lead to more issues in more body systems that they may not even be aware of. But nobody is, you know, advertising whole foods, like whole foods. So much of what people see and kind of the noise that feeds in is just, you know, everything else that's marketed in a box or a bag or somebody. Angela: And so that's what, and so sometimes those help people put health claims on other products that [00:10:00] aren't whole foods and then whole foods kind of get neglected. And so, yeah, we definitely want to say, you know, it's important. And we talk about eating the rainbow and the colors because each colors, providing different phytonutrients. Angela: And so, you know, you want that broad range because the more diversity you have in your fruits and vegetables, the more diverse a microbiome you're going to develop, the better protection for your immune system and just make everything else work better in your whole body. Michelle: I love that you talk about diversity because actually a lot of people end up developing sensitivities even if it's healthy food that they eat all the time and it's important to have diversity because it really allows the body to get so many different benefits and also not get too intolerant of one specific thing. Michelle: The body likes diversity. Judy: Absolutely. And we really wanted people to feel inclusive with the book. So that's why there's so much [00:11:00]culinary medicine, like just basic skills. Here's how you can throw something together without even a recipe, you know, just really, you know, five steps to a great salad. What should it have, you know, different things like that. Judy: And we also wanted it to really highlight the, All the global cuisines. And so for example I see a large population of South Asian women, right? And so there's, there, there always were like their diets too high in carbs. And we talked about what are all the wonderful things that herbs that you're using, the dolls, you know, the pulses, but we tried to make sure we had things from all regions because unfortunately a lot of people here in the medical world, like, Oh, just eat the Mediterranean diet. Judy: We're like, Oh no, no, no way. That that's so exclusive. It's not inclusive. We want to talk about, you know, foods from, you know, West Africa or Central America, a lot of the indigenous healthy foods, and then also what's seasonally available. And so one of the things that we really tried to [00:12:00]share is a lot of different types of foods. Judy: Simple preparation, but let people start where they're comfortable. So if you're a chef that only has three or four recipes and you're still sort of using some are processed foods, maybe they'll start with adding a soup or adding some vegetable dishes or adding a salad and letting them know you're going to get benefits from those first steps. Judy: Because some people feel like, like I just talked to someone, she goes, I'm trying to be all in, you know, trying to be perfect. Do you know what I mean? Michelle: Yeah, Judy: And that's stressful. It's stressful to feel like you're getting a grade on your diet. And we want people to feel like it's fun. They're having a date night with their partner and maybe they're trying a new recipe in the book. Judy: Or they got inspired because there is a lot of pressure when people are trying to conceive. And the book is also for those people who are like, Hey, we want to get pregnant in the next year. What's the path to a healthy pregnancy? We have no idea how long it's going to take, but [00:13:00] what's going to prepare us? Judy: And you know, Michelle, that like 50 percent of pregnancies are unplanned. So a lot of people, you know, maybe they're exposed to a lot of those fertility disruptors, and if they would have known even a few months in advance, they could have decreased some of the risks, you know that could impact their fertility and pregnancy. Michelle: definitely. I remember seeing something, it was about a burger or like a chicken sandwich or something. It was a sandwich with a bun that the woman just kept in her closet and just saw what happened and it was not, it was not good. Breaking down and I'm like, whoa That is crazy. Like things are supposed to break down if they don't break down and they don't yeah Just break down like what happens in your body So talk about the importance of eating whole foods. Michelle: Listen, we're going to have processed food once in a while. It's not like, you know, end all be all like, it's not one thing or another, obviously, [00:14:00] but talk about the importance of really being intentional about choosing more whole foods in your diet.  Angela: Well, you know, I do think, I think that everybody's so different in what they eat, but I think that, yeah, the ultra processed foods and processed grains, so like breads, cereals, pastas, Anything it's just so it it's everywhere, right? It's it's you can't get away from it and it's become normalized And it and so it has become acceptable and ordinary And the problem with those foods is yeah, you don't need to say i'm not never going to eat that again But it replaces it, you know, it takes the place of whole foods. Angela: And so I think you know Where do you get whole foods? Well, it's hard to get whole foods You You know if you're eating If you're buying foods at convenience stores or fast food restaurants or even regular restaurants Sometimes i'm surprised that menus don't have Kind of like more vegetables available when we talk about the fertility plate[00:15:00] and the whole plate being half Vegetables, right? Angela: You're not going to get that in a restaurant, like the restaurant usually. So, you know, we, we have talked to women, we didn't really talk about this that much in the book, but like, I think some of the women gave us examples of, you know, planning when you go to a restaurant, gosh, what can I eat from this menu that would be more of a whole food, what are the, sometimes the side vegetables are something they'll order from some of those things to say like, yeah, I don't need to necessarily go for the most. Indulgent luxurious meal. I want to go for the whole foods cause I know that's what my body needs. So we talk about being intuitive eater or competent eater. It, you know, I don't think this is taught well in schools. So, you know, to, to be honest, nobody, it's nobody's fault. Like where you are, it's a growth opportunity for everybody to be like, Hey, I didn't really get this education growing up. Angela: My parents worked. I didn't, you know, I didn't cook that much growing up, but now I'm an adult. And I need to really learn about [00:16:00] nutrition and what my body needs and how to heal myself through food. And what that might mean is I need to cook more. And if I don't know how to cook more with whole foods, You know, there's opportunities to learn. Angela: There's so much now available on YouTube, or that's both good and not so good, but you know, you can find the good, the good things and learn to cook with whole foods and buy things like our book, which are trying to teach people almost some intuitive cooking skills. Cause you don't always want to be cooking from a recipe. Angela: You want to get some basic staples and some comfort in the kitchen and some things you really are good at, and then always build new and add new. Okay. But yeah, so that was like one of the tenants of our philosophy of how we taught was, let's talk about, you know, building a meal. Let's talk about what vegetables are going to be in the meal, what protein is going to be in the meal. Angela: And for us, that was mainly going to be a [00:17:00] plant based protein. So either beans, lentils. tofu or tempeh or edamame, so a soy based protein, or fish, since all of those have been shown to increase fertility. And then whole grains, those ancient grains, so not processed and kind of putting that all together and nuts and seeds and other things that provide those denser nutrients. Angela: And really starting with like cutting things up, like, okay, let's prep everything. Let's do the mise en place. Let's get everything ready. Let's plan meals. So you're going to have leftovers. because it takes work and effort. You don't want to put all that effort in and then only eat once. So you want to have some leftover meals that you can repurpose throughout the week or free some of these meals that you're going to be able to then thaw out next week or next month when you're more time pressed, and you know, you've got your own freezer meal that you've prepared that you're going to be able to thaw out and cook and have a nutritious, delicious, quick meal, right? Angela: So it's just a, I think it's a mindset, right? [00:18:00] It's a different way to think. And, and everybody can get there and just build that knowledge and build those skills. And that's exciting. Michelle: It is exciting. I find that whenever you're learning something new, like you, you make it more complicated in your mind. You're like, oh, I have to do this whole thing. But you don't realize, like as you learn it, you could really strategize and make it so much easier and cheaper. You could save money that way. Judy: Absolutely. Michelle, you bring up a really good point. And what's really fun is a lot of the women who've taken classes or patients of ours, like even after like two years after they have their baby, I'll get an email. You know, I saved all those recipes from class and I still love the, you know, the quinoa mango black bean salad. Judy: It's so delicious in the summer. I take it to parties or one patient just wrote me about the soca bread made out of chickpeas that they start to add them to their repertoire or you want to increase their self efficacy, their confidence and their competency. And then when they do eat out, you know, maybe [00:19:00] they do broaden and they, you know, they go for an Indian meal or an Asian meal and they know like, Hey, I'm going to order one whole vegetarian. Judy: So I get more broccoli and veggies like they know how to order and feel good. When they go out or they travel, you know, how can I take that and keep it better? And, you know, just really, you know, giving them that support. And so in the book, for some people, this is really new. We kind of do like a six week blueprint, but we also say like, If you feel pretty good on some of the skills and you've checked the box, awesome. Judy: Work on some of those things that you, you want to build up stronger in your repertoire. And if you feel like you need more time, I remember when our class switched to virtual and we started to go to every other week, the women were like, this is kind of good because I have more time to work on my goals. Judy: I kind of like that other, remember the every other week model? You could do that with a six week plan. Maybe I'm going to try to do this over twelve weeks, you know, three months, give myself some time to To try new things.[00:20:00] And the thing is you're getting the benefit with every step you take. There's a benefit, you know? Judy: And so the cool thing for us is sometimes at the end of the class, women who didn't eat in the morning, they like. You know, we started eating in the morning because of class and the food was really good. They started regulating their cycles, Michelle. It was amazing. And one of our last live classes before COVID, I remember one table of four, they were all kind of waiting to get their cycles and things and getting ready for IVF. Judy: And they all went on to conceive. They all got their cycles and went on to conceive. And that was just, the cost of food and, you know, putting a little bit of time in so that lifestyle does make a difference whether someone's going for art treatment or they're, you know, they're, you know, they're just maximizing their fertility options. Michelle: Yeah, there was actually a study on girls in college that skipped breakfast and how it impacted their cycles I thought that was interesting[00:21:00] Judy: I would guess negatively. I'm thinking if Michelle: Negatively, yes negatively. Yeah. Yeah, Judy: You know, I just want to check. Michelle: They most of them started regular and it they became irregular. Judy: You know, and people are getting into a lot of fads where they're really time boxing their food. I just talked to someone in a smaller body and she says, I'm trying to eat clean. So I only eat between this time and this time. I go, Michelle: Mm hmm Judy: you should eat when you're hungry. Your body needs nourishment all day, not just eight hours. Judy: So sometimes we see people that are going to overboard. And they're restricting, and then their reproductive axis is not getting the nutrients it needs. And I'm like, that's not what you want to do for ag health. That's not what you want to do for reproductive health. If you feel cold at night and you're, and, and you know, and as we know with, you know, acupuncture and Chinese medicine, energy is such an important concept. Judy: So if you're freezing all of a sudden, and you're starving [00:22:00] yourself, you're not nourishing your body. Michelle: Absolutely. And actually in Ayurvedic medicine, they say that when the sun is out, that is when, because we, you know, we, we respond to the elements. And when the sun is out, especially like around 12 PM, you should have your largest meal because it increases your own digestive fire because we get influenced by nature. Michelle: And actually the morning you should have breakfast, you should have food during the day when the digestive fire is. Increase the most and when you shouldn't is as it gets darker like a couple hours before you go to sleep That's when you can give your body a break. So it kind of According to Ayurveda, it's a little bit more flipped than what's typically done where people skip breakfast. Angela: Right. And, and, you know, that, that exactly parallels some of the metabolic studies, right? So what Ayurvedic medicine is known for so long, right? And then Western medicine has to come and prove it that like our digestion is[00:23:00] better in the morning and the way glucose and, and. nutrients are processed in the morning is better when we have more energy and we're more active throughout the day. Angela: And then at night, things are winding down and slowing down and you want your body to relax for sleep and not be digesting a big meal. And, and we do talk about that, but it is really hard for people to flip to try and get more calories and earlier in the day when fewer at night when the typical pattern is, is the opposite. Michelle: and it's going to give them a lot more productivity and energy to have a good breakfast because you know, protein, you got those good fiber and vegetables and berries and, really start your day right. Judy: We encourage people if they're really set in a way, we're like, we'll do it as an experiment. Be curious. Try it on the weekend. Maybe try it on the weekend because you don't want to change your flow. See how your energy feels, especially when people are telling us they're fatigued. Judy: They're like, I'm so tired. And it's [00:24:00] like, and most of their energy intake is at night. They wake up not hungry. You know, we do try, you know, try to flip that around and that's part of that intuitive eating and eating competence and see where your body, because really people know a lot about their body and so we want them to be in tune to that too and trust that. Angela: And I was just going to add that, you know, sometimes people have these ideas of what a typical breakfast, lunch, and dinner is and what food should be part of those meals. And we say, Hey, that does not have to be the case either. I love a breakfast salad. I love eating my leftover dinner from the night before for breakfast. Angela: If I've made something delicious, I made this great stir fry and I've had a little bit because it's late, but I'm like, I want to have that for breakfast. I'm going to have a big bowl, you know, so I love having those other things early in the day because I do feel like it gives me great energy. And then the other thing that we talk about is, you know, the[00:25:00] walking after meals and especially getting outside early in the morning and getting that sunlight to really Start your day and, and get your clock going and how important those rhythms can be to recognize that you have, your body has a rhythm, sleep consistency is important, exercise and movement throughout the day is important, all these other things that we want to build in, you know, to our base for overall wellness to support fertility. Michelle: Yeah. I love it. I love it that you're a doctor and you're interested in this because unfortunately it's not as common. Like people don't know about all of these things about really connecting with nature and the nutrition aspect of it. So it's amazing. It's so well rounded because you have like so many different backgrounds and perspectives on Judy: We, we, we, yeah, we try to bring it all together and that's why this book would have been much longer if our publisher didn't say stop, you know, it was like twice as long. You'll see when you're writing your book, you want to share everything. And so we did include [00:26:00] two chapters on like boosters and disruptors, you know, talking about stress and sleep. Judy: And then also some of the disruptors like, you know, alcohol, cannabis, endocrine disruptors, because we didn't want to scare people, but we felt they needed to know. And you know, science based, evidence based, but we did put it at the end. You know, we really focus on the food and feeding yourself because really that's what our program is all about. Judy: But we find that when they put it all together and they get to those boosters and they add the movement and the stress and so many of our patients, patients who do acupuncture will say, well, that's one of the ways I always say, what do you get out of it? Cause I always want to know. And they go, Oh man, I'm such a good place to do. Judy: I leave in my stress level is so much better. I go, then that's something you want to include in, in, in what you're doing for your health. If you have the privilege and you have the accessibility to it. So we, we try to make everything accessible. Because there's so [00:27:00] many women and men who don't have access to medical care when it comes to fertility. Judy: It's really the underprivileged do not have access or such limited access that we thought if we could at least cover the main things and it could be, you know, available in libraries or, you know, things like that and audio books that that would be a way that more people could really have that information. Michelle: Well, it's great information. And also, I love that it talks about. combining foods, in Chinese medicine, we have a lot of formulas of herbs. So each herbal formula has different herbs and they work together as a symphony. And a lot of times they'll include ginger or digestive herbs to help assimilate. Michelle: So working together, And a certain symphony is what makes it that much more beneficial for the body. And I like how you talk about the importance of combining foods. You were talking about putting [00:28:00] vegetables because if you just eat meat without vegetables, it's not going to be able to simulate as well and digest as well without those vegetables helping in that fiber. Angela: Right. The vegetables are actually pretty protective, right? So I mean, there, you know, there have been studies that look at people who eat just more of an all meat diet and then people who eat more of a vegetable based diet, but with meat and the gut is healthier, right? If you incorporate those vegetables the, the, because the fiber from the vegetables is so protective. Angela: That then you are able to digest the, the meat and make use of the nutrients in the meat as well. So I think that's, that's great advice. And I think that, you know, out here we're in Seattle. And so we have a lot of, you know, we have a number of people who are trained in acupuncture. They are, you know, trained in traditional Chinese medicine. Angela: And we have always basically said, you know, gosh, I don't know that area, [00:29:00] but I trust. The practitioners in my area who knows so much this has been around for so long that let's, you know, combine and talk about the best of all worlds and support everybody's health. And then the same with fertility clinics, like some people really are going to need that extra step of a traditional IVF clinic. Angela: They might need insemination. They might need IVF. And then all these other things are going to be supportive and enhance their success because it's so expensive. And the last thing you want to have to do is multiple cycles. And so the more efficient you can make each cycle by bringing your best self forward into the process and taking the time, like a lot of people, you know, want to kind of take a lot of time to get to a fertility clinic. Angela: And then once they get there, they want IVF yesterday. Like they want to be pregnant yesterday. So And it's still really about the time and the investment in, [00:30:00] you know, producing optimum health for you and your partner. And so that, you know, it might take a good three months, right? Of preparation to say, let's make sure when you do IVF, if you need IVF and you're going to do it, that everything's perfect. Angela: As great as you can make it going into the cycle instead of just like, Oh, there's an opening next week. Let's get started. You know Michelle: I wish all reproductive endocrinologists spoke like you Angela: Oh, yeah. Thank Judy: she, and she, and she walks the walk, you know, for all the patients we've had together. A lot of times after that initial consult, she'd be like, okay, I want you to do, you know, food for fertility and work on nutrition and lifestyle for three months. You know, let's see, you know, what we can do with some of these biomarkers that are, that are elevated in a very positive way. Judy: And then quite often during that three months, a woman starts cycling. I always, I remember saying to Angela once years ago, I go, What if you put the [00:31:00] fertility clinics out of business? I mean, we were kidding, you know, when I said that they have the role. So please don't think I'm saying that, but you know, we did. Judy: And she's like, great. She was like, wonderful. Let's help people on the easiest journey. Let's not, you know, when someone gets sent to me and they've already had three failed IVFs. for whatever reason. And they're like, okay, I want to work on my nutrition. I'm so happy to work with them, but I feel really bad because they're pretty wounded because they've been pretty disappointed and let down. Judy: And sometimes it was something obvious that nobody ever brought up, you know, their eating disorder, their PCOS, that things could have been optimized first. So I think that's where we all work together. So I feel like that's why when you work in integrative planning, You know, practices. We, we work with, you know, fertility yoga instructors that we really trust and, and, and, and D's and dietitians and, and, you know, we know which clinics are going to be weight shaming, you know, we want to know [00:32:00] where can our patients put the best team together, where can they get support groups from resolve or other organizations so that they feel as fully supported as they go on this journey, because a lot of people, Never expected this. Judy: They just, I went through unexplained infertility for years. Never thought that was in the bags for me, but it was like. You know, you feel helpless. So having a community, and I think when we all work together interdisciplinary, you know, and we know the best people to send our patients to, or best organizations, or how to check, we really help them. Judy: We really, we really can help. So we're excited about you, you know, your future book. Yes. I mean, you know, I was just coming first, but yeah, looking for resources is so important, Michelle. Angela: And I, right. And I think, you know, those resources are great. And then also if somebody is seeing somebody and it's not clicking. You know, it could be it could be their doctor. It could be their [00:33:00] dietitian. It could be whatever They you don't have to stay with the same person. You can actually go get another opinion you might You know, click better and work better with someone else who Has different information even it's not all the same. Angela: So each of us don't necessarily provide the same information or You know, it's an art and a science and I think we all feel that that we connect with people It's so important, but we all connect differently And and as an individual each person should really You Make the most of that and, and really make that work for them. Angela: They're the ones they're invested in it. Michelle: That is so true. Absolutely true. I've seen people who have been going for years to one reproductive endocrinologist and then when they changed different approach, different energy, just like, and it was a different outcome, Angela: Yep. Michelle: you know, it happens.  Judy: And if you make a change, [00:34:00] no one's mad at you. We all want the same end result. I always tell them all the clinics in this town, they're all friends. They all know each other, you know, professionally, they all know each other. They're going to send your charts. Judy: They're not going to hold them back. You know, everybody does want a positive outcome, you know, to take place. Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. I mean you know, not always the case, , but when it is, it's amazing, and it's true you really do have to find that alignment and I always say, you know, it takes a village and creating a team of different people that can support you in different ways. Michelle: When going through this, but of course nutrition is so important in Chinese Judy: We all eat. Michelle: Yeah, we all eat and we eat for a reason a good reason, right? Angela: Mm hmm. Michelle: And the spleen and stomach are actually the center and they're like the mother in a sense, you know the nurturer Aspect of our bodies and that is really where everything else gets built they [00:35:00] talk about pre heaven chi pre heaven energy in the kidneys And of course the kidneys are really important But sustenance, the energy with which we can sustain and increase after our genetics is food, Angela: Right. And I think, you know, that's just kind of being understood. I mean, I think in science, Yeah. We now are recognizing, you know, there's genetics, and then there's epigenetics, which is how the genes are expressed and the epigenetics is how we influence which genes are expressed. And that has to do with our nutrition, our stress. Angela: Our sleep, our movement, our community, our mental disposition, our mental health, our optimism. All these things have a huge impact in our health by the epigenetics. And I think people sometimes think it's just genetics and things are. A predetermined and it's going to be one way and it's totally [00:36:00] not. You have so much influence as a, as an individual about what path your life can take and how your health is affected by these decisions you make every day. Michelle: which is so empowering, I think, to know that you actually can have a hand in your Angela: Mm hmm.  Judy: , I was just thinking we almost wanted to add a whole another chapter on epigenetics, but we had to pull it back. So we just kind of sprinkled it in, you know, the lifestyle things. But even when we work with people who are using donor eggs, their health will have an impact on these epigenetics. So that really empowering that mom, you are the full mom, you know, even with a donor egg, what you eat, your life, your health. Judy: Is going to have an impact on your baby. And I think that really helps people to know that Michelle: That is such a good point. It's really true because it's, it's all important. It's all parts of the [00:37:00] whole.  That's where you do have control right over your lifestyle. And these some of these decisions because you don't always have control over your fertility. I mean, certain aspects are just out of your control, and you do feel that helplessness. Angela: And so I think where you can feel good and feel empowered is, you know, these are the actions I can take. These are the steps I can take. I am making progress. I am growing as a person. I'm helping myself. I'm helping my community. Whatever the case may be, I try to recommend not kind of losing yourself in just trying to get pregnant. Angela: Really recognize your, yourself as a whole person and all the things you are providing to, to your community through purpose and service and love and, and everything you're doing is just, it's key to who you are and it brings you strength and peace. And that's just really [00:38:00] Great to know and you, those are decisions you can make. Angela: That's not something out of your control. Michelle: That's so important. And thank you for bringing that up and you guys, I could talk to you guys for hours cause you know what, you know what I love? Well, first of all, your knowledge, you guys are very knowledgeable about what you're talking about, but the passion , and the compassion. With which you are operating  Michelle: I think we both have one major thing in common is that we love this community and it's a beautiful community to serve. And so for people who want to find you or read your book, how can they find you? Judy: Well, the book is available at all major books, booksellers and many of the independent ones request it getting to baby book.com. It will be released April 9th. So I'm not sure when this is released, but April 9th will be released. It can be pre-ordered. You can follow me at Fertile Nutrition or on my website, mindbody nutrition.com [00:39:00] and Angela. Angela: And you can also request the book from your library. So libraries don't automatically stock books, but if individuals make a request to a library, the library can order the book. So that's something to know as well. And then I'm at AngelaThiremd. com or at AngelaThiremd on Instagram. Michelle: Awesome. It was such a pleasure meeting the two of you. You guys are so nice and so knowledgeable and just really lovely to talk to. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. Angela: Thank you, Michelle. Judy: Michelle. Thanks, Michelle. Angela: to you as well. 

On tomorrow's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Alana McGlashan of @thenurturedwomban_ shares her personal fertility challenge story and experience with Asherman's syndrome. She discusses the complications she faced after a miscarriage and the diagnosis of severe Asherman's syndrome. Alana shares her journey of healing and preparing her body for conception, as well as her experiences with pregnancy and loss. She emphasizes the importance of connecting with the heart and womb, and the power of self-trust in the healing process. I was deeply moved by her story of hope and how she found strength to listen deeply to her soul's calling and knowing that she was meant to have her children. Be sure to tune in!   Description:   Alana experienced miscarriage, Ashermans Syndrome & infertility on her journey to conceive. Navigating Asherman's Syndrome was one of the hardest times of her life as she was told due to the severity she may not be able to have children. Sending her on a healing journey that although may have taken 2 years, she now has 2 children later. The medicine she found on her journey she now shares with women in her 1:1 energetic womb explorations, helping women to rewrite the story they have been told on their own fertility journey & setting the foundations for profound healing. You can find her on Instagram @thenurturedwomban_     For more information about Michelle, visitwww.michelleoravitz.com   Click here to find out how to get the first chapter of "The Way of Fertility" for free.   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:     [00:00:00] Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Alana. Alana: Hi, how are you going? Michelle: Good. So I'd love for you to share your story. I know that it's been a very personal fertility challenge story and definitely defied the odds from what you were told. And I love stories of hope. So I'm very excited to have you on and share your story and your experience with Asherman's syndrome, which I think a lot of people aren't really aware or may not even be aware that they actually have. Alana: Yeah, absolutely. And at the time, you know, I had no idea what it was and it was something I was searching for in the hopes to hear hope, because I was just hearing a lot of stats and a lot of Let's say stories that I didn't, I didn't want to hear at the time. So I felt pregnant and lost that little baby at 10 weeks. Alana: And I was a scientist working in Sydney, which is from [00:01:00] where I live, two hours travel away. And I went to the early early pregnancy. room, and they gave me all these options of what you can do next. And. At the time, everything, I would say I was heavily in my masculine energy. Like all just do the things, list out the steps and we will follow them to become parents. Alana: And because I traveled so far away, I took the option of a DNC, which is a dilation and curette. I'm not sure if that's called anything else anywhere else. And it's just basically the surgical removal. Yeah. Okay, cool. And yeah, and I woke up to complications after that. And, you know, after being told like, it's so routine and I just thought, you know, it would be simple. Alana: We do this and then I have a bleed and we can start trying again. And I woke up to, yes, as I said, complications. And [00:02:00] feeling really disorientated and I just felt really in my gut like wow what what just happened and they kind of just brushed me off and My doctor, then later, just was like, okay, well it's been six weeks, you haven't got your bleed back. Alana: Sometimes women need a little bit longer. And I just knew in my gut things weren't right. And for me, I had no period. So 12 weeks, post that surgery. I still had no period. Yeah. And I think maybe around the eight weeks I, I was like, no, my gut's telling me something's not right. I'm going to book a specialist appointment and because they take so long to get into, I thought I'm just going to book it now. Alana: And if I don't need it, then I can cancel it.  Michelle: Did you, did you know anything at the time? Did they say something was off or you just kind of felt Alana: yeah, they, there was nothing ever mentioned of Ashman syndrome. The only thing that they mentioned, I mean, they obviously mentioned some risks that can happen and the risks, risks are a perforated uterus, but it's so [00:03:00]routine that if that was to happen, that was really negligence. And that was all that they had described as a potential risk. Alana: So I hadn't even heard of Ashman's by this point, like, and so I followed my gut, made this appointment and it must have been around the four month mark after surgery and I told him my story thinking I was just going in there to get a tablet that would just help kickstart everything. Maybe I just needed some help to get things along. Alana: And again, you know, I was, I was very naive at that time on, of my cycle and understanding my body. And I walked in and told him my story. And basically he said, we, there's something called Ashman syndrome, and I feel that this is, this is your situation. And. We need to get in and have a look like, cause he could do it via scans and then go in and do surgery, but he's like, due to the nature of how long you've already waited and the scar tissue that would be there if it was [00:04:00] confirmed. Alana: We need to get this cleaned up ASAP basically. Michelle: Before we continue on the details, I want people to know like, what is Asherman's syndrome? Alana: So Ashman's syndrome is basically where scar tissue grows inside the uterus and reduces your fertility as a result from some form of surgery. So they might try and say just from DNC, but if you have a baby and maybe there's retained placenta and they clean it out that way, any sort of surgical intervention within your uterus, Could potentially scar. Alana: And I think what's important for women to know right now is that any change in your period. Or if you're experiencing difficulties falling could be a sign. I have no women after, so the percentage is actually quite low. I forgot to look it up before we jumped on today of Ashermans. But The other women that I had sort [00:05:00] of searched for to bring awareness to our local hospital and their procedures, they had their period, but their periods just were different, a little bit lighter, maybe they didn't go as long, there was just a lot less. Alana: small signs, which they quite easily then got fobbed off as just being paranoid in a sense. And then all turned out to have different stages of Ashman's, whereas I had none and my stage was quite high. Actually the highest he had seen in my local area. So that was not good news for me. Michelle: Yeah. Alana: yeah, so long story short, he said we need to operate and Confirm, and if so, it's a 20 minute procedure, I'll be in and I'll be out. Alana: And, I thought, oh, I thought my legs were pulled out from me at that moment, but from that surgery I woke up and I felt really disorientated, as you do, and he's standing there waiting for me to wake up to tell me that, [00:06:00] yes, I've confirmed it's Ashman's Syndrome, however, it is so severe, I I've been in there for four hours and I can't see without risking damage to your uterus. Alana: And I need to do some further tests before we continue. And I remember the first thought I thought of was, am I going to be able to have children? And he had this solemn look on his face and he goes, I have no idea what's possible right now. And I was just. Gutted. Absolutely gutted. Michelle: Wow. That is so real. I mean to be in a situation like that and just thinking, okay, I'm going to go in and have the surgery and everything's going to be fine, it's going to be, what did he say? 20 minutes? And to actually see that it's really severe so what happened after that?  Alana: Yeah, so I then had to go you have to allow a little bit of [00:07:00] time for some healing and they put in, I think it depends for the surgeon, but I got a gel put in that just kind of tried to help what he did pull away with the scar tissue not to reform because there is a risk that as he opens it up, like the little spindles might. Alana: touch and then start to pull together. So they put in this gel that lasts, I think, for four weeks. So I had to wait a month. And then he sent me for a we call it here a sonar histogram. So it's just a ultrasound where they insert water into your uterus. And then they can see like a good picture, the flow, if there's any blocks. Alana: And I think for women that might have blocked fallopian tubes, sometimes they use this and it can either unblock or at least identify that the fallopian tubes are blocked. And, I'm just going to say that was the worst pain I had ever been in getting that. And again, no one warned me that it could be uncomfortable. Alana: And I wouldn't say uncomfortable [00:08:00] was the word. And I was just so lucky. I had a girlfriend who came with me and just said, look, I can, I can sit here and hold your hand while they do this. And it probably turned out the reason why for me it was so painful, but I have now heard many other women describe it as quite excruciating. Alana: Is that my, most of my uterus? was scarred to the point that it was nearly completely shut. Michelle: Oh, wow. Alana: And so they were trying to obviously shove water in it and like open it up when it could not. And so that again was like a really hard thing to take. And the specialist had said that he will have to do this with multiple surgeries. The good news is there is a side, there's a little part that is open and he believed if he could get to there, then he could. Remove the rest and it may take a few surgeries, but he just wanted to take his time. Alana: He didn't want to [00:09:00] cause more damage. And so we had just resigned to the fact that this is a process that needs to be done and there's no rushing it. And the good news was the next surgery, he was able to remove all the scar tissue. And again, he inserted the gel so that the hopes that nothing would close back up. Alana: And then I had another follow up, just normal ultrasound, because I said, I was too scarred to have that other ultrasound again and yeah. And then from there he's like, okay, this is great. You know, we've got, we've got rid of it. The uterus has opened back up. It's gone to normal shape again. Let's work on your lining. Alana: So a. Do I call it a symptom afterwards? Is that Your lining may not become thick again. And he is also an IVF specialist. So he was really [00:10:00] wanting my lining to get to a certain thickness that he would put his, or would want his IVF patients to be on which just was not happening. And at first it was really disheartening. Alana: And so he'd reached out to, there's a guru in Sydney, and then he went further. I think it was It was overseas and he just said, you know, like some of them don't come back, you know, any thicker. And that is, that is their lining. And so obviously being a scientist, I had read all the papers, read all the stats and nothing was looking great to have a baby. Alana: Some women had not many in the severity that I had. And if they did have one that were high risks the risk was the placenta could attach to your uterus muscle. And just a whole heap of other things that you really don't want to hear when all you want to do is be a mom. [00:11:00] And yeah, so it was like, I just kept going to this place and this place just kept giving me the answers that did not agree with what was in my heart. Alana: And I just thought this can't be my story. This can't be my only story. And I just had this feeling to expand where I was looking. And so I started to research other modalities. And I thought, you know what, if I can just help support my body, who knows what's possible. And I ended up finding a traditional Chinese medicine practitioner who specialized in fertility and I went there weekly for two years. Alana: Yes. And I felt good. I felt like this was where I was meant to be, but it was really hard to hear the things that she[00:12:00] was saying. Like your body can be trusted. Your body can self heal. Everything's possible because at the time I was so, as I said, in my masculine energy of stats and facts that. Michelle: hmm. Alana: how, how, and it wasn't until obviously with the, with the acupuncture and the herbs, my mind started to heal, my heart started to heal, that then my womb had a chance to heal. Alana: And of course it sent me on this huge journey, deep dive into energetics of the womb and its capacity, its ability. And I started to believe that, whoa, okay. She's a powerful organ, and not just organ, portal for creation. And, Alana: Right? Tingles! Yeah! Michelle: Yeah. When you said heart, that struck me. 'cause I know that the heart's connected to the uterus. Alana: And, [00:13:00] it wasn't, it took me a long time to put two and two together. And, your emotional state. And like, the womb is the element of water, so your emotions. And it's the sister heart, right? So of course, our emotions are going to get stored in our uterus. And if she's too busy trying to hold our emotions that we're not processing, how was I giving her the space she needed to heal in the timeframe I wanted, you know? Alana: And it was just, my world had opened up. I still had at that time stayed close to the medical system. There was still fears, you know. that if I had fallen pregnant what that then might look like, what that journey may look like. And we decided to focus not on a baby at the moment, just focus on healing, get married. Alana: And I fell pregnant on my honeymoon or I found out on my honeymoon and we were so excited. But [00:14:00]again, I decided not to get a scan until a bit later, but that, that Bubby had decided only six weeks was it's time on this earth. And as, Sad as that was. It actually gave me the biggest sense of hope. And I realized the message was just give me time, Michelle: Oh, Alana: me time. Michelle: wow. Alana: And so I was like, okay, this is possible. That was without intervention. That was without any other, cause I had a lot of fear around anyone going in my uterus again, because of course I trusted someone to go in there and do their job. And I came out damaged and that really, and that like, not just you were hurt from that. Alana: That changed the projection of my life completely. And so I had a lot of mistrust. I didn't want anyone to go near it if I could help it. So I really wanted that natural approach. And as I said, as that strength between [00:15:00] heart and womb grew, I knew that that was going to be possible and I just had to trust that you know, the divine timing of trusting and surrender is not the easiest thing to fall into or follow, but. Alana: I just had to trust that my heart was guiding me on the path that, that then needed to be. Alana: Sorry, that brings up lots of emotions thinking about back then. Alana: And so, yeah, it was, it was actually quite interesting that the divine timing of the, that baby that I then lost the second time, my family suffered a significant loss in like my immediate family not long after. And. I believe that that baby also knew that it wasn't the time because I needed to be there for my little brother. Alana: And it was, I was just, [00:16:00] you know, at the time you just think, wow, I'm cop and blow after blow. But when you had the little bit of space, you just thought, well, how would I have been able to grow a baby right now? Like I am in so much grief. It, it was insane. And then once He was better. I went on a Bali trip with a best friend and we just, she's like, you just need to, you know, live life a little bit. Alana: And we went on this retreat and it was when we came back from that, we were like, okay, I feel like we're in a good place now. Like I'm in a good place. Let's just see what happens without the pressure and the timing and the scheduling. I didn't want conceiving to be a job. I really wanted it to be from the heart. And it was about, yeah, because I feel like when you're struggling, you really take the heart out of conceiving and conception. Michelle: is, you are, every single thing is a quote. I'm like, this is amazing. This is really, I'm [00:17:00] feeling this. Alana: Conception isn't just the creation between man and woman, Michelle: Yes. Alana: It's a co creation with the spirit of that baby and what it, what fuses that love, you know? And. I wanted the next baby to be strong, strong enough to like, whatever we needed to go through, we had each other. And.  Michelle: Like the stuff that you're telling, like it's making me emotional. Just so you know, like I'm really feeling every word that you're saying, not to interrupt, but continue. Alana: I probably needed that pause for a second. Yeah. And so then we found out in February I was pregnant and you know what? I knew, I knew instantly this was the baby, that this baby was going nowhere, that they were here and. My dreams had come true. There were still fears around the placenta attaching to my uterus and what that could mean. Alana: And at the end of the [00:18:00] day, I have resided to the fact that if this was going to be my only baby, so be it because I wanted this baby. And. Yeah, I was in, I was, I had an OB because if things did start to go south, we wanted to be on that early. But anyways, I had a beautiful pregnancy. No complications. Alana: The placenta was in a great spot. And it even got to the point, because most, the stats had suggested that women with Ashmans have. a caesarean. And again, that fear of do not go near that part of my body. I don't want you there. I really didn't want it if I didn't have to. And I said, can I, can I try, can I try and go natural? Alana: Like everything is going well. There is no indication of anything wrong. And it was looking good and she thought possibly, but then my son decided to stay in the breech position and [00:19:00] I was not in the place that I am in now where I would continue with a vaginal birth. I mean, I was born a breech baby vaginally. Alana: And so I found it really hard that the quote I was told was that we have lost the art to birth a breech baby or the skills, not the art. And I was like, Oh, okay. And then today I think, I'm sorry, who's birthing the baby? Michelle: Mm hmm. Alana: The mom, Michelle: Right? Alana: the mom is birthing the baby. Not you. Yes, you're assisting, but yeah, so, You know, my views today would have changed on that. Alana: But at the time, again, as I had mentioned, I, we just wanted the baby. And she did give me options to do that, like manipulation, my traditional Chinese medicine practitioner, she was doing all the things to create the space. Yeah. Everything. I had everything going. I had it at home on my toes. I was doing the [00:20:00] upside down poses, which mind you made me feel absolutely terrible. Alana: And so I just said to my husband, I can't do this. Like. This feels wrong. And and I have to resign to the fact that. He found his position and he was not moving and that's where he wanted to be. And then it was my choice to decide how then that, that became our birth together. And so we had a cesarean beautiful little boy, everything great. Alana: It all went great. And so afterwards, because of the scarring and that fear that I had around my uterus, I didn't want to fall back in a place of like dissociation and detachment from it. Like I had. Started to rebuild this relationship with my womb. And now they've just. Also added another scar. And I was like, well, I've had one baby who's to say I can't have another like, and so I went on another deeper journey again. Alana: And with my practitioner of healing this scar tissue and softening it before it has the chance to [00:21:00] really harden in preparation for the next baby. And. Michelle: And this was acupuncture or another Alana: Acupuncture at the beginning. And then it was probably for the first six months I did acupuncture and she showed me how to self massage my scar tissue. And what else did we do? There was just a lot of hands on touch. And I think her focus was to remind me that you can still have loving touch on your body. Alana: After everything I had gone through. And after six months, It got a little bit hard with a little baby cause she was in Sydney where I had found it cause it was close to where it was really hard to get up to her. And now that he was starting to move and be mobile, it was a lot harder to have a session on my own. Alana: And so then I started looking at other modalities. I thought, well, okay, I've done all the acupuncture. Let's see what else there is. And I come across a lady who did Yoni steaming and she did energetic [00:22:00] support. Consultations beforehand. And it became just a really beautiful practice where I could turn within and I could nourish myself and just steam and just visualize the blood flow going back to my uterus and everything being soft and really in that feminine essence, that feminine energy to allow that nurturing to happen to my womb. Alana: And I went weekly. Until my bleed came back, which was 14 months post as I was a breastfeeding mom postpartum. And, you know, we were kind of on this urgency, let's, let's fall pregnant straight away because of everything we had. We didn't expect it to take two years to get our son. And I'm already in my thirties. Alana: So there was like that time pressure to, all right, if we want more children, cause you know, we had always talked about having four and we're like, Oh gosh, I don't know if four is going to happen now, but if we can get. You know, on the roll, we'll see what happens. And so I had to reduce my breastfeeds to get my bleed [00:23:00] back so that we could fall pregnant. Alana: And when we decided to start consciously conceiving, so I think it was just the month of that I ended up with my bleed. I started to feel this essence, this person, this spirit around me. And it was the first time I had really started to attune into these senses. And. I just could feel this girl, this pink. Alana: I could see pink around me when when she'd just show up. And it was really interesting because the month I fell pregnant. So obviously that two week wait, I couldn't feel her. I didn't know where she was. And I was like, Oh, I feel like she's here. And I was pregnant and I didn't tell anyone apart from the lady that I went to Yoni steaming, because we'd always talk about, you know what, what do I feel like a baby might be? Alana: And I was like, to be honest, I can actually sense this female around me. And I just get these glimpses of[00:24:00] pink like a pink orb and yeah. And then it turned out I had a daughter and what was beautiful about that pregnancy, I mean, we didn't find out. I like to just wait till birth to find out what the gender of our babies are. Alana: And. I did not want to go back to the hospital system. I didn't want to be put in a place where they would just see my history and then start to implement things that then of course would lead to other interventions that I didn't want. I didn't want to be supported in that way. I knew the capability of my body. Alana: I, like my pregnancy was again, a really gentle, easy pregnancy. I mean, I was very sick, but overall easy. And. I decided to home birth. And again, that was like a huge thing. Like in my immediate community, you know, no one does that. And so I didn't want to tell anyone cause I didn't need anyone's opinion [00:25:00] to discourage me from this because I had, I think it was just before I tested on a stick and I only tested on the stick to show my husband, like I didn't, I already knew I was pregnant. Alana: I had this vision that the birth would be at home. And so I really just wanted to trust that That was again, where I needed to go and I needed to trust. And that took a lot of self confidence to be able to say, no, this is, this is what I want to do and why. And yeah, I had my daughter at home and now I always knew that like my journey was. Alana: A lesson to be learned. It was a, because if I continued on the path I had continued, I would not be the woman I am today. I wouldn't be the mother I am today. I wouldn't be making the choices I've been making for myself and my family today. And it was like a realignment, but also a [00:26:00] gift for medicine for me to be able to share with women. Alana: And, you know, I want my story to be heard, but I've also then set up my own business so that I can still be at home with my babes because I want to raise my children. And I want to help women who feel like their story is just hurdle after hurdle. And what I've learned in this, this journey is like what we see in our physical body is only the tip of the iceberg. Michelle: Oh, yes. Alana: Yeah, and like when we're looking and talking about our womb, the energetic womb, there is so much she holds and there's so much healing that needs to start there. And the first thing I like to check with women is that connection between heart and womb, is there coherence and resonance? How are they emotionally feeling? Michelle: my language. Alana: right. And, [00:27:00] and that's why I, I love listening to your podcast because I just was like, you get this.  Michelle: I feel the same way about you, by the way. Alana: And now I, I want women to like know how important it is to care for your womb and what we're seeing as manifestations on the physical side, the root cause. The reason that you may not be seeing change is not in the physical. It's in your energetics. Yeah. Michelle: 100 percent Oh my God. I mean, I'm telling you, like, I'm so moved by your story, but also it just fascinates me like beyond fascinates me. When you were saying that you're a scientist, like from somebody who came from a science perspective and background, and yet, even though you were still there, you still had your inner voice. Michelle: Letting know something was off, like the doctors didn't tell you anything was off. Nobody came to you after[00:28:00] the surgery and said, you know, something looks off. You figured it out. You knew it from the inside out. The wisdom within your body spoke to you Alana: Absolutely. Michelle: heard it. Alana: Yeah. And I think sometimes for women, if you allow that external noise to be too loud, you're going to feel it in your heart. You're going to feel it as grief, as sadness, as like, why is this happening? But that noise is too loud. Michelle: Mm Alana: And. You know, if, if all you take away from my story is that deep knowing it's okay to know that your path could be different and maybe that's your sign to go searching elsewhere Michelle: I mean, yeah, it's incredible. First of all, it takes a lot of courage. Oh, I mean, it takes a [00:29:00] lot of courage to hear something from an authority figure, especially if it's like people you're relying on and in the medical community and I'm just FYI, I'm not saying not to listen to your doctors but for your specific journey, your journey Had twists and turns and part of it did rely on you listening to your own gut and, and really getting to the bottom of it. Michelle: And you remind me a lot of a patient who came on the podcast, her name was Amy and she was in her forties. And she also was told she couldn't get pregnant with her own eggs and that she was approaching menopause. And she ended up having two babies afterwards, healthy babies. And she had this determination in her. Michelle: She was just, there was this. Kind of strength. And her voice was so loud, like her inner voice and not her voice. Her inner voice was so loud in telling her, no, no, no, no, no, you gotta, and she had this [00:30:00] determination within her that I see in you. And it's not something that is easy for everybody to answer that call. Michelle: Like it's not an easy call to answer Alana: No. And it's, it's a fire within, but it doesn't mean it's an easy path. And it's like, you have to have the courage to continue to choose, to continue to choose what you know to be true. And I had many challenges. There was many times where I was like, well, I feel like the universe sometimes goes, are you sure? Alana: Because you can choose here if you want to, because we were given choice on this, on this earth. Right. And you can choose to go this way because maybe you believe this is easier. Or keep going as a reminder, you know, just to, to, to choose and yeah, that fire and that courage, like there was a lot of times where I felt like, I don't know, [00:31:00] you know, because you don't know, there's so much unknown and the world really like thrives on structure because that brings safety and that brings knowing and this path can be so unknown and all, all you can do is put one foot. Alana: In front of the other and trust yourself, just trust in yourself, because then the pieces will start to fall and they will start to come. Yes, you may need to choose yourself, but keep choosing yourself and your baby. Because if you desire a baby, that desire is meant for you. Can you trust that? Michelle: You know what they say, there's that Rumi quote, it says, what you seek is seeking you. Alana: Yeah. Because otherwise, why would we? Why would we have that desire to do so? Michelle: I really believe that. That, thank you for saying that because I really, really believe that to be true. And I think a lot of people. learn from so many different opinions and so much of that noise, outside [00:32:00] noise, it dilutes their faith in that being true. Just because we don't have proof for something doesn't mean it's not true. Alana: Yeah. And you get to, you get to decide what's true for you. And I think that's when you come back to the medical system and your doctors is just having a place of discernment. Is this really true for you? And you know, if you can come from a place of self-trust and that self-trust guided you to go there, absolutely listen to that. Alana: Like my message is, listen and guide from within. Michelle: And when you talk about that heart, well, like there's this heart brain coherence, but the heart has. An energy field that's stronger than any other organ in our body. And people think it's all in the brain, but the heart actually has a way larger magnetic field. It has such an important role on our mind and it has such an important role on our uterus, [00:33:00]which is life giving and love gives life, breathes life. Michelle: So talk about that resonance and that coherence and what you've learned about it. When it comes to the heart and the uterus. Alana: so I want to start with a quote from Joe Dispenza that I had just recently heard, and it kind of just put the words to place of what I was feeling, and it, he says, We only accept, believe, and surrender to the thoughts that are equal to our emotional state. We only accept, believe, and surrender to the thoughts that are equal to our emotional state. Alana: And I was like, they're the words that I'm kind of searching for. Right. Because a lot of my sensations that come through me are feelings. So I knew the heart needed to heal and healing the heart allows for the womb to heal and this relationship, this agreement between the two, like the womb holding on temporarily to [00:34:00] emotions, to. Alana: then return to the heart so the heart can process and leave our body. And so there was a lot of practices that I have incorporated and I still do them daily where I will do a little visualization and my intention is always love. And You can still have love and gratitude, even if you're feeling deep sadness. Alana: And it's not about, I don't want to be sad anymore. Let's reject that. This is grief is one of the deepest emotions you can have that has profound healing when you allow it to run its course. Michelle: Yes. Alana: And I think for women who are trying to conceive, when you're struggling, the thoughts that start to come up why me? Why is my womb not working? I can't, I [00:35:00] can't fall pregnant. I can't do this. You know there is anger, there is a disconnection and disassociation from your womb and really. In this society, we are already starting from a place of disconnection from our first bleed and reconnecting, honing in. And sometimes it's as simple as 30 seconds, close down your eyes, put your hand on your womb. Alana: You take a deep belly breath, Alana: visualizing your hands that are warm. That mama hug that you just love to feel. Wrapping around your womb. Alana: And then telling it, I love you. Thank you for everything you are doing. [00:36:00] I know you want this too. Alana: And then bringing your hand back to your heart space. Alana: Feel that heartbeat. Alana: Your own rhythm. beating in your womb Alana: and feel the love between the two. Alana: Maybe you like to envision a rope, a golden cord, connecting, vibrating, Alana: sending out this beautiful white light. That's so strong and so pure.[00:37:00] Alana: Feel it wrap around your body, Alana: feel it encapsulate you. Alana: And then on your next inhale, breathe it all back in, breathe it into your cells, every inch of your being, physical, emotional mental and spiritual Alana: and opening your eyes and practicing a simple visualization I found daily was strengthening this reconnection. It allowed my inner voice to be heard. It built trust and surrender to the process because pregnancy, birth, motherhood, it is all setting you up. It is not something that you can plan out. Alana: The key is surrender. Michelle: hmm. Oh, [00:38:00] yeah. Alana: I get reminded of that every day. Michelle: Yeah, I think we all do, even though we've been on the path for a long time, the spiritual path really, that is in the path of truth and alignment. It doesn't matter. We get reminded every single day and I can literally talk to you for hours. I mean, There's just so much, so much information, so many things, so many ahas that I felt talking to you and I really truly think that you are so aligned in, I mean, I literally think that you're channeling wisdom. Michelle: You're very much connected to that. I can feel it. I could feel the truth in your words. I can feel the alignment I feel the awareness and the knowing and the true knowing of thyself. I think know thyself that's like the key and the only way to do that is to get quiet and To connect with your inner wisdom and to hear what your body is telling you because the more you hear it The more your connection with it gets stronger. Michelle: And of [00:39:00] course I can talk to you for hours, but we don't have as much as I wish, but, but I would love for you to share how people can find you and how people can work with you. Alana: Yeah, absolutely. Michelle: are inspired, which I know they are from your story. Alana: So you can find me on Instagram at the nurtured woman. Womb, W O M B A N and currently the way to work with me is through my one on one sessions and they're energetic womb explorations for one hour where we can just dive into your current state, your desire, and really start honing into this connection between heart and womb with then obviously the opportunity to extend. Alana: But That is the point of contact. Michelle: Awesome. Well, I definitely feel you are connected to that womb. wisdom and I know that womb wisdom does actually speak to us. So Alana, [00:40:00] thank you so much for coming on here today. Sharing your incredible story, like really incredible. Like I felt it on every level of my being. It got me emotional listening to your story. Michelle: And I thank you so much for coming on today. Alana: you so much for having me. It was such a pleasure.

Dr. Katie Lee is a dentist, speaker, author, and coach who lives in Aurora, Colorado. Dr. Lee graduated from University of Illinois at Chicago in 2010 and was an owner-partner in over 80 DSO supported dental practices throughout the US and served as Clinical Partner overseeing 5 states. Currently, she consults for health technology companies and provides implant education for general dentists. Dr. Lee has two passions in her profession: dentistry itself and making other dentists successful. Her passion about the oral systemic health link comes from personal experience. Dr. Lee was involved in an ATV accident as a teenager, which left her without many teeth and rendered her jaw immobile. Dr. Lee experienced how oral health affects systemic health and the benefits of dental implants. Her first-hand journey in recovering from the effects of dental trauma led her to specialize her career on the mouth-body connection® and dental implants. Dr. Lee searches for proven technologies that improve clinical outcomes and the patient experience and loves to educate her peers on those technologies. Dr. Lee authored a book entitled Saved By the Mouth to educate patients and clinicians on the importance of oral health. Dr. Lee has won many accolades, including Top 40 under 40 Dentists in America, and International Woman of the Year in Dentistry. She has been featured on local Fox and NBC news stations discussing the importance of oral health.     https://www.instagram.com/katieleedds/   https://www.facebook.com/katieleedds   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:   https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/           Transcript:   Michelle Michelle: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Lee. Katie: Thanks. I'm really excited to be here. Michelle: I'm so excited to have you on actually, this is a first, I have never spoken to a dentist on this podcast, but it is such an important topic because there's such a correlation between inflammation in the mouth and also unexplained infertility. And I'm very excited to get started before we get started. I would love for you to give us a little bit of a background on yourself, how you got into the work that you do. Katie: Sure. Absolutely. Thanks for having me on. I feel honored that I'm, I'm the first. Hopefully, I don't mess it up for the rest of us dentists out there. My journey into dentistry was. Of tragedy. So when I was in high school, about 14 years old, I was involved in a ATV four wheeler accident where I crashed into a telephone pole headfirst without a helmet on, broke every bone in my face from my eyebrows down and naturally, or I [00:01:00] guess as expected, lost a ton of teeth and my jaws were wired shut immediately, even though I had lots of teeth that were displaced and broken. Katie: And, they were wired shut for two months. I'm I couldn't eat and so I was on a liquid diet and My family didn't really know anything about nutrition. So I was Having pudding jello ice cream, you know with Hershey's syrup box mashed potatoes You know all the things that you should not eat to be healthy or maintain your teeth And so I just started developing a ton of dental infection And, , that combined with not being able to eat nutritious foods, you know, my body really started shutting down. Katie: , I lost a ton of weight, my liver enzymes spiked, my kidneys started shutting down. And so I learned from a very early age just how much your oral health affects. Not only your mental and emotional health, but your, your physical health as well. And, you know, it was nine surgeries in four years, , that it [00:02:00] took to reconstruct my face and my jaw. Katie: And then once that was done and only then was I able to my teeth and, and finally replace the missing teeth and fix my smile. So that really. Got me interested in what I do. And then once I got into dentistry, you know, I started going down this journey of oral systemic health. And from a personal experience, I had a lot of fertility issues. Katie: I went through about six years in fertility treatment. And so just really started diving into, you know, how can. How does the mouth affect this and what can I do as a dentist to help other people? Michelle: Yeah, I mean it's definitely something that I think a lot of people do not I don't want to really correlate, but let's, let's actually really break this down because like , how can your teeth impact your body?  Katie: From a high level? Start there? Yeah. So, , there's a couple different ways that the teeth and gums are really affected to the rest of the body. And, the first way that I About is bacteria. So our body [00:03:00] has types of microbiomes and the first real microbiome that we get or we're introduced to is the one in our mouth and we get that, you know, we used to always think that babies were sterile. Katie: We know that they are introduced to some bacteria when in utero first microbiome that we get introduced to is through the mom's vaginal canal. And then Through breast milk and from family members when we're kissing, , and, you know, eating and drinking after them, we get this whole microbiome and the microbiome in our mouth is super important because it's what establishes and feeds our gut microbiome. Katie: And so we know that when we develop dysbiosis in the mouth, what actually happens is that bacteria then go through our gum tissue, or we swallow 80 trillion bacteria a day. And so the bacteria that are in our mouth. We'll go to other places in our body that they're not supposed to be and start to cause damage. Katie: So that's one way that the mouth affects it. And then the other way is through inflammation. So again, when we have these foreign invaders in our mouth, what we know [00:04:00] is that our body elicits an immune response. And that immune response, unfortunately, doesn't stay localized to our mouth. It will break down our gum tissue, making our gum tissue permeable, again, allowing what's in the mouth to get to the rest of the body. Katie: But it also triggers an inflammatory response in other parts of the body, too. And this becomes really important in fertility, because that's when people can start to develop things like endometriosis, pelvic inflammatory disease, and things like Michelle: yeah. And also, as you're talking about this, I'm thinking about all these like alcohol rinses, you know, mouthwashes. So that's huge because people are like, oh, I want to get rid of my mouth bacteria because I want to really clean mouth. So like, But that messes up the good bacteria. So talk about that. I mean, you know more about this than I do Katie: Yeah, no, I mean, that is such a good point. I'm so glad that you brought that up, because The way I was trained, even 10, you know, back in, I graduated in 2010, you know, we were [00:05:00]taught the, the more it burns, the better it's cleaning, right? Like you want something in there that's burning. You want something that's 99 kills 99. Katie: 9 percent of all bacteria. But what we know is that's actually really bad. And to your point, , those types of products are not selective. So they're killing everything that's there. The good and the bad, when really we want to control the bad, support the good. and kind of let the body do its own thing. Katie: The other thing that's damaging about alcohol mouthwashes is that it dries out your tissues. And we know that when you have dry mouth or dry tissues, the bad bacteria love to go to those surfaces and take up shop. And it really supports them colonizing and growing their little, , microbial communities. Katie: So we want to have saliva. Saliva protects our teeth and gums from bad bacteria. So an alcohol containing product is not good for our health. Michelle: Now what does a person do if they were a c section Katie: Yeah. So, you know, there's lots of things that people can do throughout their life to [00:06:00]support their microbiome, you know, C section babies. We know that unfortunately they, they don't get exposed to the. you know, good vaginal bacteria during birth, but there's lots of things that they can do to support their microbiome. Katie: So I'm a, you know, people always talk about taking probiotics and probiotics are great. And what probiotics do is they're actually going to put bacteria into the body. , so it'll, it'll help replenish the bacteria that is missing from the gut. What people also don't understand is that they need to feed the good bacteria that they already have. Katie: So you cannot forget to take. Prebiotics, eat prebiotic food, take prebiotic, supplements. That way you can feed and help nourish the bacteria that's already there. Michelle: Yeah, Katie: We're introduced to so many bacteria every single minute of the day. You know, I, I wouldn't be as concerned once you get into adulthood about having a c section or being a c section baby because by that time you've been exposed to really everything that you need in your life. Katie: At that point it's just about nourishing and keeping it in balance. Michelle: Yeah. For sure.[00:07:00] It's interesting cause I was actually at, , microbiome labs. So are you familiar with them? So they actually have an enzyme like mouth. It's like a mint freshener, but it's like an enzyme one. And there was a guy who was talking about oral health. It was a presenter and he was talking about that and I thought that was really interesting and he also talked about Mouth breathers people who go to sleep and yeah So let's talk about that because that's really important and it's a big thing now people actually tape their mouth Katie: I know, it's just that you don't. Yeah, thank goodness for Instagram, you know, because you'll see someone on Instagram taping their mouth and all of a sudden everyone wants to tape their mouth, so this is really important because You know, there's a really good book out there for people to read called Breath by James Nestor I don't know if you've heard of it. Katie: A patient actually recommended it to me And it basically talks about that over time because of our high processed diet We've gone from eating You know, super fibrous, tough [00:08:00] foods to eating high processed carbohydrates and softer foods. And because of that, the structures of our skull and jaws have actually, , shortened or shrink. Katie: And because we have smaller jaws, it's why we no longer can. Make room for our wisdom teeth. So most people actually have to extract their wisdom teeth now. And what we know is that the smaller our jaws are, the less room in our mouth for our tongue and our airways actually start to shrink. So what happens is when we go to bed at night. Katie: our tongue falls to the back of our mouth and our airway collapses and we essentially start choking on our tongue. And so we start to breathe through our mouth. And the problem with this is our nose is, is such a, an incredible organ. It's designed with. millions and trillions and billions of of cilia in there to filter out the pollutants in the air. Katie: But when we're not breathing through our nose, we're taking in all of that dirty air through our mouth and it goes straight into our oral [00:09:00] cavity. We're introducing new, , microbes into our oral cavity that disrupts our microbiome. We're drying out our tissues. And again, we talked about dry mouth leads to increased bacteria formation, increased plaque formation, but then all that dirty air is also getting into our lung system, , which is not good and will trigger an inflammatory response. Katie: And so people don't realize that mouth breathing. causes or exacerbates allergies, , it also causes oral dysbiosis in the microbiome and therefore gut dysbiosis. And so one of the things that people need to do is to retrain themselves, how to breathe through their nose. So really great way to do that is by mouth taping. Katie: And a lot of patients will say, well, doc, I, you know, I can't breathe through my nose even during the day. And I'll say, well, you've got to retrain yourself how to use that part of your body that you haven't been using forever. So I encourage them to start taping during the day, you know, maybe just do 15 minutes at a time and slowly the nose will start to open up and work again.[00:10:00] Katie: Now, if someone has something more severe, like sleep apnea, they absolutely need to get a sleep test, , to get that diagnosis and then get treatment because. Sleep apnea is where you're actually choking at night. You're not breathing. You're waking up more than five times per hour because your oxygen is desaturating more than, more than 10%. Katie: And so those people need supplemental treatment such as a CPAP or an oral appliance or something like that. But sleep apnea is horrible for your brain. It kills brain cells. It's really hard on your heart and it's fatal if it's left untreated. It's just a matter of when. So I'm really glad that you brought that up. Michelle: that's actually really scary I do know that there's a correlation with weight gain And sleep apnea. So like, it's interesting because it's the whole thing. Like if you're taking care of your body and you're healthy, that impacts all the other things in your life, like your sleep. Katie: Definitely. Sleep apnea, what happens is when you, you know, when you're asleep and you stop breathing, what [00:11:00] happens is your body sends this rush of adrenaline to your brain stem to wake you up enough to take a breath. When you're doing that, you're stressing your body out, so cortisol is released. Katie: Cortisol causes systemic inflammation if it's released at high levels over time. , we also know that it, , lowers our insulin Michelle: Right. And then we gain weight because of that. Katie: yes, making us crave carbohydrates, making us gain weight. And so a lot of people have probably noticed that, and I, I notice this all the time. If I don't get a good night's sleep, I, all I want the next day is carbs, right? Katie: Carbs, Michelle: It's the quickest energy. Katie: I want. So it is crucial. Michelle: Yeah, for sure. I mean, cause that's what it is when you're tired, you want quick energy and the body knows instinctively that you'll get it with carbs. Katie: Absolutely. Michelle: course, that's not a very good source of energy. It's not, , an efficient one. Katie: Yeah, you run out of it very quickly. Michelle: And then other questions that I have is over brushing. Michelle: So some people think, okay, after everything that I eat, I'm going to brush my [00:12:00]teeth. What are your thoughts on that? Katie: Yeah, so there's a balance there, right? And what people want to try and avoid is brushing immediately after eating and drinking. Because we know that after you eat and drink, the pH in the mouth is going to go down. So what happens is we put something in our mouth, the mouth is the beginning of our digestive system. Katie: And so our body releases an enzyme in the mouth called amylase. And this amylase is an enzyme that starts to break down the carbohydrates in our mouth. So in order to do that, the pH has to drop. The pH also drops just because most of the stuff we put in our mouth is acidic anyway. And so you combine acidic food and drink with an acidic pH from, from the amylase secretion, and you're setting yourself up for a disaster of erosion and cavities. Katie: And so if you're going to eat or drink something, I always recommend to wait at least 30 minutes, before you brush. But people absolutely need to brush minimum twice a day. I mean that's like non negotiable I always recommend morning and night [00:13:00] if they can get one more in there during the day. That's great But if they can at least do two minutes morning and night, I think people are going to be pretty satisfied with Michelle: yeah, for sure. Now my other question is mercury fillings. Katie: yes Michelle: Yeah, let's talk about that because for a while, oh, it was like no big deal and now they're finding that it is. So it's kind of like brushed off a lot of times. I remember going to the dentist and asking for the white filler and, and he was kind of giving me pushback on that. Michelle: Yeah. Katie: And there's, unfortunately, you know, a lot of dentists out there that still believe that way. , and, you know, I hope your audience doesn't crucify me with this because I don't believe this. But their, their mindset is, and it is true, mercury fillings are stronger than the white composite fillings. Katie: Also, they're less technique sensitive when putting them in so if you're putting in a white composite filling little dental nerd out here You have to have everything completely Isolated [00:14:00]otherwise the white filling won't bond to the tooth and the filling will fail really quickly and the patient will get decay right underneath that Filling when you're packing in the mercury fillings. Katie: I mean, you're literally just Katie: It's called an amalgam, so it's an amalgamation of all this material. And so it doesn't matter if there's saliva. It doesn't matter if there's blood. , because it's not bonding to the two structures. So the dentists don't have to be as careful and think about it. I mean you're working in the mouth where there's tons of saliva and bleeding and things like that. Katie: So they're much Less technique sensitive to put in and they are stronger. , now the downside is they're filled with all kinds of things that are terrible for you. And we know, you know, think if you think about a mercury thermometer, right? There's a very small amount of mercury in that thermometer. But if a thermometer breaks in school, they shut the entire school down and call in a hazmat team to come clean it up, or a biohazardment team to come clean it up. Katie: Yet we're plugging this stuff into people's teeth. And the hard [00:15:00] thing about teeth, or the thing that people need to understand is that teeth are organs. And they have a blood supply, and they have a nerve supply, and to put that, that type of material, especially mercury, near blood supply that's connected to the rest of the body, or nerves that are connected to the rest of the body, in my opinion, is dangerous, you know, if we just use a little bit of common sense. Katie: And so I don't like mercury fillings. And now we're left with a bunch of patients that have them in their head Now, what do we do to remove them because you can't just go in and start Drilling them out and creating all this mercury vapor, right? Because it's not good for the dentist or the patient Michelle: So there's a biological dentists that specifically specialize in removing them. What are your thoughts on that? Katie: I I think it's really important to Go to someone that understands how to remove them correctly correctly. I would not consider myself You know the gold standard biologic dentist, you know, and the fact that I do all zirconia [00:16:00] implants and things like that But I definitely believe in safe amalgam removal because it's actually more dangerous for the provider who's removing the, the mercury filling and the assistant who's suctioning everything out than it is for the patient because we're creating all this vapor that's coming out of the mouth. Katie: Sure, it's coming into your body, but we're the ones that it's getting on our skin. You know, it's settling up next to our thyroid. So a lot of dentists have thyroid issues, myself included. This happened to me early on in my career when I started learning about this, they have fertility issues. , and so it's really important that dentists understand how to remove them safely. Katie: So I, I definitely, if I was having mercury fillings removed, I would make sure my dentist knew how to do it appropriately. Michelle: Yeah. Oh my god. You're giving such good information I really appreciate it because I think these are all questions that people have and you're giving a very well rounded very balanced Information Katie: I always say, you know, there's amalgam dentists, right? Like the traditional You know, every day dentist , and then there's the biologic dentist that do everything on the opposite end of the spectrum. Katie: I would say I'm [00:17:00] over halfway to the biologic dentist, but not all the way quite there. Michelle: Well, I guess it's kind of like traditional medicine. Katie: Yes. Traditional medicine. Yes, Michelle: It's, it's a little bit more of a holistic way to look at Katie: Yes. Yeah, Michelle: , and of course, even with what I do, even though I specialize in alternative medicine, I'm very much in the world of Western medicine because a lot of my patients need sometimes like conventional medical care  Michelle: so it's nice to have a balance of both. Katie: Yeah. I still, you know, I joke all the time. I still believe in science, right? , I still do testing. I still do modalities. There's a time and place for everything. I just think we need to be a little bit smarter about how we approach, you know, healthcare and dentistry and, , not use bad materials that we know are horrible for us. Michelle: 100%. What I'm finding actually is a lot of people in my world are very much now into studies and science. So there is a bridge that's coming together. And I see a lot of, REs that I have developed great relationships with are [00:18:00] very open to what I do to help their patients. So I'm starting to see this shift of everybody coming together, which I love. Katie: That makes me happy because, you know, I did infertility treatment for six years and I saw some of the best specialists in the country. Not one asked them about my oral health. And there's so much research out there about how oral health affects infertility and you know Thank goodness. My oral health was fine. Katie: Of course. I checked it before, you know, I went and did all this stuff But you know, it was just kind of shocking to me how siloed and hyper focused they practiced, you know, and just looking at the reproductive system and nothing else Michelle: Oh, yeah. And even in Spain, they'll check even the vaginal microbiome, which I find so interesting because there's a correlation between that being off and then fail transfers. So they do that like automatically and it increases their success rates and they'll give them like vaginal, Probiotics Katie: I love that Michelle: And, and that's like a thing here. It's not so as we [00:19:00] learn, I mean, and then of course, when I read it starts with egg, that's what really got me into the whole teeth thing and then seeing the science with that. And now, like, even for my intake form, I always have a section that talks about like, have you ever had dental work done because it's important, but you know, you learn, it's not something that I knew like automatically, but as I got more into it. Michelle: I learned. Another thing that I wanted to ask you, what are your thoughts about fluoride? Because I know this is a very hot topic. Katie: Hot topic right, you know, I think I think it's a, another conversation like mercury, right? I think for a very long time, we had this major issue of, we call it caries in the dental field, which is just cavities. And so we had, you know, dental decay is like the number one disease in the world. And we had all these. Katie: You know, kids and people that had rampant decay and instead of looking at diet and microbiome, which is what we should have done, we said, okay, well, let's create some sort of chemical or product [00:20:00] that we can do to treat right. We're treating the symptom, not the original form of what's causing it. And so they created this. Katie: But what we now know is that when you. swallow it and you ingest it systemically, it's not good for you. It's a, it's a neurotoxin. And there's so many, I think there's so many other ways that we can combat dental decay where we can get around using fluoride. Now, if I have a patient that comes in that's refusing to do any of these other things that I'm talking about, and they're a teenager, and they have rampant decay everywhere and I know they're not going to make any lifestyle, nutritional, or oral habit modifications. Katie: May I put some fluoride on their teeth? Sure, but it's going to be something that's isolated that they're not going to ingest and swallow. My preference is to not use that because I know that even if I put a little bit in their mouth, it's still going to get in their system. But not treating someone with rampant decay and having Having them lose teeth because of it, or worse, develop an abscess, which we [00:21:00] know abscesses are horrible for our overall health. Katie: To me, that's doing more harm than painting a little bit of fluoride on teeth. But I actually recommend to use products like Nanohydroxyapatite is awesome. It was developed for NASA a long, long time ago to help astronauts, , you know, to prevent them from, from getting decay. So if it's good enough for NASA, it's good enough for me, right? Katie: So I love Nanohydroxyapatite. I love M. I. paste. , I also love arginine. Arginine is something that a lot of people don't know a ton about, but there's a ton of research out there showing that toothpaste that are high in arginine, like Tom's for example, , prevent tooth decay and also help treat tooth sensitivity. Katie: So I think we have Michelle: I love Katie: so many great things out there that we could use in addition to, you know, making sure that we're balancing and nurturing our microbiome. Not eating Jolly Rancher is incredible. Michelle: Yeah, exactly. My kids have been fluoride free. They don't get fluoride. They've been using fluoride free toothpaste. [00:22:00] They have never had cavity. Katie: Amazing. Yeah, and they, and they should never need it, right? Our, Michelle: They floss too. Katie: Yeah, I mean, so there you go, right? And, but what people don't understand, and I would have patients come into my practice, and they would say like, well, I want fluoride free. And I'd say, okay, tell me about your diet. And it was breads and pastas and carbs and sugar and five cokes a day. Katie: And they don't brush or floss their teeth. And they think oil pulling is going to solve everything. You know, and I'm like that, we can't do that, right? We need to, we need to intervene here. But if, someone takes a holistic approach to their oral health care, they should never need fluoride. And we know that our cavity causing bacteria really peaks and starts to decline in mid thirties. Katie: And so if parents are healthy, Their kids are going to be healthy because you're number one modeling healthy lifestyle But number two you're transferring all of your microbiome to your kids And so another thing that people don't realize is that if a parent's mouth is Full of [00:23:00] cavities and gum disease the kids mouth is going to be full of it because you're sharing the same bacteria So good for you for you being healthy and then keeping your kids healthy, too. Michelle: Thank you. I love how balanced this conversation is. It's amazing information. , I just love this because it's so important and it's, it's information that a lot of people just don't have access to, and it's not even like, sometimes it's not even knowing that you need to have access to certain information, but it's like. Michelle: So important. And it could be like that one thing that people are not looking into when they're going through fertility treatments or just challenges overall, Katie: Yeah, and we know that fertility treatment actually increases our inflammatory levels and increases the leakiness of our gum tissue. So if the mouth isn't healthy to start, or even if there's a little bit of dysbiosis going on, fertility treatment is just going to exacerbate it. So it's best to get it treated, you know, it's safe to do it during pregnancy, but it's always best to do it beforehand. Michelle: Yeah, [00:24:00] for sure. So now, let's talk about Peelu gum. So you hear about Peelu gum, , that it's very good for your teeth. I just was wondering what your thoughts on it or if you know, like how it can impact Katie: I actually don't know what that is. Michelle: Oh, so Peelu is from a tree. It's the Peelu tree, I believe. And so they create this gum and it's sugar free, but it's like natural sweetener and it's supposed to actually help clean the teeth. Katie: Okay. Michelle: Yeah. So look into that. Yeah. If you find out anything, email me. Katie: Yeah. Do you know what the sweetener is in it? Is it Xylitol or do you know what's in it? Yeah. So anything with Xylitol I love, , Xylitol is a natural sweetener that tricks the bacteria in your mouth to thinking that it's sugar because that's what the bacteria thrive on. Katie: So the streptococcus mutans cavity causing bacteria in the mouth. What it does is it feeds off of sugar, so that can be sugar from candy or gum or, you know, breads, pastas, processed [00:25:00]carbohydrates, things like that. And then it excretes lactic acid on the teeth and that's what causes cavities. So xylitol, what it does, is the bacteria still thinks it's the sugar that it wants to eat, but once it eats it, it can't metabolize it, so it actually starts, from ingesting the xylitol. Katie: So I love that. I'm gonna look that up. I haven't heard of that Michelle: Yeah. They have it at Whole Foods. It's kind of like a more natural, you know, more natural, but it's supposed to be good for the teeth. Like I think that back in the day people used to chew on it. It was from trees and they would just chew on the actual whatever that was. But Katie: which that's good too, because again, you're chewing on fibrous branches, right? And that's really good to stimulate saliva. It's really good to work on your jaw muscles and it's really good to develop the structural skeleton of the jaw on the face. So Michelle: yeah, so maybe, a little gum chewing is okay. Katie: Oh, I love gum Michelle: strength. Katie: recommend it all the time. Yeah. That's actually one of the things that I do recommend for my patients. , because you know, like I mentioned, it stimulates [00:26:00] saliva. Saliva is like our best protector that we have of our teeth because it neutralizes the pH. It actually coats our teeth in, You know, this like biofilm, right? Katie: That's super healthy. So it protects the teeth from getting any bad bacteria stuck to it. So I'm a big fan of chewing gum. I think it's great. I recommend it for patients all the time. As long as it's sugar free, of Michelle: Yeah. So this might be the ideal thing, the Peelu gum. Katie: Yeah. Michelle: I happen to love it. So it's kind of my guilty pleasure. I try not to do it too much cause I know like it's just, you don't want to wear down your teeth, but Katie: should, I mean, you shouldn't, unless you're really grinding it, like you shouldn't be wearing down your Michelle: right. So it's, it probably protects it anyway. Okay. Well that's good to know. Cause I Katie: habit to do. Michelle: I learned something new. It's nice to hear that you, that you actually promote that or that you support doing that. That's awesome. Wow, this is great information. I know you also have a book about the mouth. Katie: Yes, so I wrote a book called Saved by the Mouth and it's all about how oral health [00:27:00]affects , virtually every organ system in the body. So we talk about brain health, heart health, cancer, fertility, of course, , aging, gut health. And so I wrote it from the, or I wrote it as if I was having a conversation with a patient because I wanted the information to be easily digestible. Katie: And entertaining. And so every, as entertaining as Michelle: I love that. Katie: guess. And so every chapter actually talks about a situation that I had with a patient in my practice and them having to deal with whatever ailment they were dealing with. And so it's, I think it's really relatable. It's a quick read. Katie: , and what I like about it too is it also goes over super simple daily modifications that people can do to improve their oral health and it doesn't have to be like a life changing makeover. They're just small things that you can do to improve health and then also what to ask your dentist for and you can go to any dentist and ask this. Katie: It doesn't have to be a biologic dentist. You know, asking for things [00:28:00] like salivary testing, that's super important to know what's in your microbiome. Asking for your gums to be measured, so you actually know if you have a gum infection, things like that. Michelle: Fantastic. And then you had also talked about how like when people are pregnant, sometimes people will say, don't do any dental work during that time. So talk about that. Cause that sounds like it's an important thing for Katie: it is. It drives me insane. , and I was trained that way, by the way. So, you know, people aren't doing anything wrong. It's, it's, it's, you know, a product of the education system, unfortunately. But what we know is that when people have gum infection, it affects fertility in all sorts of ways. You know, it. It affects not only men, or not only women, but also men. Katie: And We know that if once a woman is pregnant, if she has gum infection, she is 30 to 50 percent more likely to have a preterm birth, a low birth weight baby, or stillbirth. And we know that of [00:29:00] pregnant women, about 40 percent of them present with some sort of gum infection, whether it be gingivitis or gum disease. Katie: And yet, 56 percent of pregnant women avoid the dentist. So, with those statistics alone, you know, it only makes sense that we need to be treating our oral health ideally before you even start to try and get pregnant because it will help you get pregnant. But, you know, I, I always get questions from patients being like, well, I'm pregnant now, you know, what do I do? Katie: I, I feel like I might have something going on. Well, you absolutely should go to the dentist and get this treated because you want to try and avoid any sort of pregnancy complications and, and again, patients with perio infection gum disease or gingivitis are at much higher risk for, you know, having a complication with their baby. Katie: And we know that if they get perio treatment while pregnant, their medical costs will reduce about 74%. So it's very important for the outcome of the pregnancy for the mom, but also for the outcome of the pregnancy for the baby. Michelle: Wow. That is Katie: the [00:30:00] dentist. Michelle: important. Chinese Katie: I don't get elective care now What I'm what I'm not saying is to go get veneers done. Katie: Like so I don't want people to mishear me I'm saying, you know If you have a gum infection or tooth abscess, you absolutely should go get that treated while you're pregnant All elective care can can wait until after baby's here. Michelle: Such a good point. Interestingly enough, Chinese medicine, the teeth are an expression of the kidneys. Chinese medicine, the kidneys are not what we look at in conventional medicine. The kidneys are actually what houses your reproductive essence and health. So it's so crazy how there is this correlation. Michelle: I see this a lot. I see this quite often, actually, even with, the heart and brain different. Topic, but the heart houses the brain. This is how we're taught in Chinese medicine. And now they're seeing in heart math that there is this correlation between the heart and the brain. And there's a communication between the heart and the brain that it's measured. Michelle: So it's interesting how science is [00:31:00] connecting, you know, you're connecting the dots between what was talked about in Chinese medicine. That may not. Initially makes sense, but then you're seeing in science things that are proving those things. So it's pretty wild that we're coming to this place where it's bridging. Michelle: You're actually seeing the two connecting. Katie: knew about the meridians in the teeth, but I did not know about the kidneys and fertility in teeth. That just like really blew my mind. Michelle: Yeah, for sure. And it's interesting because as a child, you know, when they're, when they're little, you know, their, their body's developing and as they get closer to kind of reproductive years, that's when their real teeth come out. And then as, , the reproductive health declines and they're getting really old, the teeth fall out. Michelle: So it's kind of like this connection to essence. Katie: I just got goosebumps. Michelle: Very fascinating. It's just, the human body is Katie: And it, it's also tied with, with microbiome, right? Like when we're born, our microbiome [00:32:00] is the least diverse. , and the least strong. It's also the strongest, like what you say, in our reproductive year. So I always tell people, you know, when you're in your 20s, and, you know, you're invincible, and you can go out every night, and not get any sleep, and eat whatever you want, and never get sick, that's when your microbiome is the best. Katie: But then also, as you age, our microbiome starts to deplete again, in not only numbers, but also diversity, and then that's when we die. So it's, it's funny how this all Michelle: Yeah. Isn't that interesting? We have these like peaks and then valleys, so it's pretty wild. Katie: that is wild. Michelle: Yeah. So we're like building and then we're kind of sloping and going down. And then also I was curious to know your thoughts about like neem rinse or a tea tree, you know, instead of obviously alcohol, what are your thoughts on Katie: Yeah. Yeah. I, I love neem oil. I actually use neem oil in my hair all over my face, like all the stuff. I think anything that you can do to be more natural is [00:33:00] totally fine. I think the key is, is that patients need to make sure that they are healthy first. A lot of times I'll have people come in and they'll be like, you know, I haven't gone to the dentist in 10 years because I oil pull or I, you know, I use essential oils or rinse with coconut every day, but their mouth is a mess, right? Katie: And they've inflammation everywhere and calculus everywhere and cavities. And so I always tell people is go to the dentist. Get a clean bill of health or if you're not healthy at least have them You know clean you up and get you healthy and then use those tools to maintain yourself over time You know when patients don't floss their teeth they get little clicks Or little nodules of calculus that build up in between their teeth under their gum line. Katie: There's nothing but mechanical debridement that will remove that. And there's no amount of oil pooling in the world that will treat that. And that's what's going to cause gum infection and gum disease. So, you know, if people want to use neem rinses and tea tree and things like that, great. Tea tree is also good for pain. Katie: You know, if someone has a little [00:34:00] ulcer in their mouth, it's great for that. Very antibacterial, neem is great for that, antifungal, all those things. But get clean first, get a clean bill of health, and then use those tools in your toolbox to maintain that bill of health. Michelle: Yeah, definitely. No doubt. I'm every six months we get our teeth cleaned. It's, it's important to actually get it because you feel it. You feel all the calcification and I even have my own little scraper. Sometimes I'll just get in between, in between times. Cause I'm like, I can't wait until the next six months. Michelle: Cause it does, it builds up. And then if you have tea and all kinds of different things, like it just, it's there. Katie: Yeah, so when we have plaque, plaque starts forming on our teeth just a couple hours after we're done brushing. So that's why ideally, if someone can brush three times a day, that's great. At least twice, you know, you'll be okay. But what happens is, once that plaque sits there, it starts to really mature. Katie: And it gets really, it gets harder to remove because the, the extracellular matrices of the bacteria really start to connect and, and strengthen its attachment to the teeth. Then we mix it with the minerals in our [00:35:00] saliva, and then it hardens and it calcifies into calculus or what people know as tartar. Katie: Once it's hardened, you cannot get that off unless you remove it with a scaler or something like that. And so it is important to go in and get it removed. Because, you know, even with a scaler, I do it to scale my teeth all the time. There's places you can't obviously reach, you know, like underneath the gum tissue in between that have to be removed. Katie: And so I actually recommend for people to go in to see their dentist about every three to four months, even if they are healthy. Because we know that bacteria repopulate about every 90 days. , and so in my opinion, six months is too long. Someone like you who's super healthy, you know, probably doesn't need to go in. Katie: But for the vast majority of Americans especially, they should be staying every three to four months for sure. , to prevent disease. You know, we, It's crazy. Cause the six month timeframe came about because of insurance. It, Michelle: No, that's exactly why we do six months. Cause our insurance pays for that. Katie: yes. It was never a medically, , [00:36:00] science based driven Michelle: Isn't that amazing how the Katie: Yeah, it was, it was dictated by insurance and it's only after. You get an irreversible diagnosis of gum disease, which is irreversible Once you have that once you have gum disease, we know you have that bacteria in your heart We know it's in your brain We know it's all over the body But it's only until you get that irreversible diagnosis of gum disease that now your insurance will allow you to go in every every three Months, that's crazy In my mind, why not go every three to four months and prevent an irreversible disease? Michelle: totally, but you know common sense common sense Doesn't always translate into the system Katie: wish we used our brains more. In Michelle: Yeah, that's crazy. So another question I have lastly like this is another thing My mom sent me this video on Facebook of a dentist showing how to properly Brush the teeth. So we typically will just keep going back and forth, but he said, all you have to do is [00:37:00] kind of go from the gums up, gums up to remove the food, because when you're going back and forth, all you're doing is just mixing the bacteria in the same space. Michelle: You're not moving it up. So just wanted to ask you what you thought about that. Katie: Oh, yeah, I mean, you can, you can do that. Sure, it's fine. The, the point of brushing the teeth, you know, what I always tell people is, the saying is brush your teeth, but what we're really saying is brush the gum line. And so, plaques sits on our, two places. One is it sits on our gum line. That's where it starts to accumulate. Katie: Then it also sits on top of the teeth in the little grooves. So to prevent cavities, you want to brush the tops of the teeth to get everything, get all the food out of the grooves of the teeth. But the most important thing, especially to prevent gum inflammation is to brush along the gum line of the teeth. Katie: And the goal of that is to disrupt the biofilm. So sure, if you're brushing up like that's great, you're brushing it away from the gums. But what you really want to do is just do whatever you can to disrupt that biofilm because you're going to spit it out. Once you get the plaque [00:38:00] biofilm disrupted, it's loose. Katie: You're going to spit it out in the sink. You know, I can't even get people to brush twice a day for two minutes, let alone having them do something as technique sensitive as that. So I just tell people angle your toothbrush at 45 degrees. Right at the gum line. Use an electric toothbrush because it'll be gentle. Katie: Don't get a hard, hard or medium bristled toothbrush. Very light pressure. Plaque is so soft. You don't have to use any pressure. You just want to disrupt that biofilm along the gum line. Spit it out. Rinsing afterwards is great. Luff, you know, obviously everyone needs to floss every day. , and then tongue scraping is really important. Michelle: Awesome. This was great information. I'm so happy that I had you on today. So this is just such great information. So for people who want to learn more about you and read your book, how can they find you? Katie: Yeah. So, , they can follow me on Instagram. I'm pretty good at, at, , responding to the DMS on Instagram. , so [00:39:00] katyleedds on Instagram. My website is also katyleedds. I do Salivary testing for fertility patients. And so if someone wants to check their microbiome and see if they have the bacteria that impact, , Fertility, we do saliva tests for them remotely. Katie: , and then my book is called Saved by the Mouth. They can get it off my website or on Amazon. Michelle: Well, Dr. Lee, it was such a pleasure talking to you. I really enjoy your mind and picking your brain I just love how well balanced your information is and, and also just, it's priceless. It's so important. Katie: Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity

Allison is a Traditional Chinese Medicine Practitioner and Integrative Health Practitioner based out of Vancouver British Columbia. She is a fellow of the American Acupuncture and TCM Board of Reproductive Medicine (ABORM) and a member of the Obstetrical Acupuncture Association (OBAA). With additional training in fertility and reproductive health as well as her personal experience with stage 3 endometriosis, Allison is particularly passionate about treating endometriosis and chronic pelvic pain. Website: https://www.seaofqihealing.com/ Instagram: @sea_of_qi_healing Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sea_of_qi_healing For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ Transcript: Michelle:[00:00:00]Welcome to the podcast, Alison. Allison:Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Michelle: Well, I'm so excited to have you on and I thoroughly enjoy your Instagram, by the way. Allison: Oh, thank you. Michelle: you guys got to check out her Instagram. I have it in the episode notes. You have so much great information. Allison: Oh, thank Michelle: You're, you're really knowledgeable about your topic. Allison: Yeah, I, love doing any kind of, I love the social media part. I love educating. I love trying to have like a fun humorous spin on it too. So I have fun with my social media. Michelle: Awesome. So for the listeners , I would love it. If you can give us a bit about your background and how your own personal journey really got you to the work that you're doing. Allison: Sure. So I'm an acupuncturist and integrative health practitioner based out of Vancouver, B. C. And I have, special interest in kind of fertility, reproductive health, hormone health, menstrual cycle stuff. I was kind of thrown into that field of work upon graduating school. And[00:01:00]that's kind of when I fell in love with it, when I started learning more about the menstrual cycle and hormones and fertility. Allison: And I realized how much there is to know and how, how many, People who menstruate don't know about their hormones and fertility and so I thought it was such an important aspect of health to to educate more on and it wasn't until a few years into my practice that I was actually diagnosed with my own kind of hormone issues as well. Allison: So that's when I was diagnosed with gynecological condition and Andever since then, I've just been obsessed with learning everything I can about endometriosis and hormones and trying to help people that are kind of in the same shoes that I am. Michelle:  So,so tell us, well, how, how did you actually get into it? Did you, did you work for somebody who specialized in fertility? Michelle: When you got out of school, Allison: Yeah, so the clinic that I wanted to work at that I was kind of interning atin transitioning[00:04:00]into that was their kind of their their bread and butter. So they did a lot of fertility and women's health. And so upon graduating and starting to work there, it was just kind of part of my education of like all my program. Allison: You know, extended learning and mentorships and stuff were under people that specialized in fertility, so I had this, like, really great knowledge base and, you know, experience right off the bat, which was really crucial for specializing in this, and it was, yeah, it really, really helped a lot. Michelle: that's awesome And so I know that we hear a lot of common myths I mean one of the things I think that was eye opening for me is like Menstrual cycle like pms and all of the things that we have are actually not normal Even though they're common you don't realize this until you learn what you learn And that's when you're like, oh my god, this is actually not normal and it's It's an imbalance and we can work on that. Michelle: Like it almost feels like we just accept it as reality. So I'd love it if you could talk about some of the common myths[00:05:00]that you see and like, let's bust them. Allison: Yeah. I feel like that's a really huge one that like PMS and period pain is normal. And like to an extent, likea little bit of PMS, like a little bit of menstrual discomfort to an extent can be normal. I mean, your body's doing, you know, a very physical thing, but if there's like really severe PMS, that's really disrupting your quality of life. Allison: If there's really painful cramps, that's impacting your ability to go out with your friends or work or any of that, that's a, that's absolutely a sign that something is wrong, that there's a hormonal issue, there's inflammation, there's something else going on that we need to look further. And you're right, we are just kind of like programmed as women as like, this is just how it is. Allison: We just, you know, suck it up and get on with our day and that's just kind of how I feel like a lot of us, especially my generation, we were just kind of programmed to do that. This is just a part of being a woman and this is a normal part of being a woman. But in fact, our period and it's kind of like our monthly report card of how everything in her body is doing. Allison: And[00:06:00]it's such a great visual of like okay, these are my PMS symptoms and this is kind of what it's telling me. And then this is how my periodis. And this is what it looks like. And this is what it feels like. And that's also telling you so much information about your hormones. And I think that's kind of what I really love about Chinese medicine too, because even. Allison: If things are like, you know, normal, according to Western medicine, like I have a lot of patients with really bad cramps that go to their doctor and they're like, well, everything in your blood work is normal. Your ultrasound's normal, but they're still having like debilitating pain. And that's when I think like Chinese medicine. Allison: is really powerful because we'll obviously see like, Oh, you've got no tons of liver cheese stagnation or blood stasis, or I'm seeing so many symptoms of coldin the uterus. And it's almost like really, it's just really empowering. I feel like for the patient too, where it's like, no, we don't see everything like checked off as normal, even though your blood work and ultrasound is okay. Allison: I mean, that's really great too. But for Chinese medicine, we're always looking at[00:07:00]this deeper underlying pattern and all these subtleties. And it's kind of painting this picture of the imbalance. Michelle: Yeah, totally. It's it was really eye opening for me because I had one patient with severe PMS to the point where she was like, I have to avoid people because I'm just not like a kind person around that time. And she was just, and she was actually a friend of mine and I was like, you know what, I'll help you. Michelle: No problem. And so she started coming in And one time she wasn't trying to get pregnant and she was like, she thought she was going to be late because she was like, I'm not getting any of my symptoms and I'm supposed to get them right around this time. Something's off. And then all of a sudden she just gets her period. Michelle: She goes, what? She's like, I just got my period. And I'm like, exactly.I'm like, Allison: I love that. Michelle: G is flowing really freely right now. That's why.Allison: Yeah. That's like the magic of Chinese medicine. Michelle:Totally! Allison:The surprise Michelle: total flow. Yes,[00:08:00]exactly. It's like the flow, Allison: Yeah, your period should kind of sneak up a little bit on you. Yeah. Michelle: Yeah. I mean, you do feel, you know, you definitely like feel your body's cues and the same thing with ovulation. When you get really in tune with your body, it is important to be able to like pick up on the details, but it shouldn't be so severe to the point where you can't, like you said, you can't deal with normal life events. Allison: Mm hmm. Yeah, definitely. Michelle:So what are some of the most common things that you see when itcomes to the menstrual cycle irregularities? Regarding fertility,Allison: Yeah, so there's a lot of different patterns and that's kind of the really funpart about Chinese medicine is that we're kind of like little detectives and we're like piecing together every symptom and kind of painting this picture of what's going on internally with the patient. So I mean, like each organ system has its own characteristics and they all kind of play a role in fertility and overall health. Allison: Because we don't really[00:09:00]think of in Chinese medicine as, Oh,the reproductive organs are just their own specific thing. It's kind of the wholebody has has a, has a play in it. So like what you're talking about, the liver chi, the liver chi is so tied to menstrual health. I am working with liver chi day in and day out when I'm working with fertility and endometriosis and hormone health. Allison: So the liver chi is like really, really important to makesure that everything's moving smoothly in the body and that's emotionally and physically. And then like the spleen chi and stomach chi in the digestive system is also really important because we want to make sure that your body is able to get all the nutrients that it needs and there's not a lot of inflammation there. Allison: We want to make sure the blood is moving really smoothly, like blood stagnation, cheese stagnation digestive deficiencies. I see that a lot. And then the kidney organ system is also really tied to fertility in Chinese medicine because it's kind of like, gives you that kind of DNA deep level energy to the egg cells and the sperm cells. Allison: And so making sure that those are really healthy because a lot of poor lifestyle or[00:10:00]genetics can impact the kidney energy system. So we always want to kind of help support the kidney energy with fertility. Michelle:Yeah, for sure. What I find really interesting and hopeful about really how Chinese medicine talks about the kidneys and talks about like the essence is, is that there's like pre heaven and post heaven. And so yes, pre heaven, we can't really do much about because that's pretty much what comes from our parents. Michelle: But post heaven is really how we choose to live our life. And we've seen that we can actually reverse age like biological age through the choices that we make. And I find that to be great. It's very empowering to know that your choices can make a difference on your body. Allison: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that kind of goes back to where I really feel like Chinese medicine is such an empowering medicine because there's so much that you can do, diet, lifestyle, herbs, supplements, acupuncture, all those things really can have such a huge positive impact. And it's kind of like, yeah, I love the pre heaven and post heaven. Allison:We are[00:11:00]kind of given what we're got with like our basic genetic blueprint, but our post heaven essence is like epigenetics, where we have the huge percentage of, you know, influence over our health, no matter what our genes are saying and we have so much influence over that that part of it, and I think Chinese medicine plays a huge role in that. Michelle: And do you find that there is a correlation because I mean, listen, we're living in a, a very toxic life, like the environment, everything's just like around us and the foods that we eat, the extra ingredients that they put in it's it's the reality is that you really have to be careful on what you expose yourself to, what kind of cosmetics. Michelle: and the endocrine disruptors, I feel like that really bogs down the liver and It weakens its ability to do its job. And then sometimes I'll see things like Fibroids or certain things kind of popping up because the body's not able to likereally clear up the toxins. Michelle: And sometimes I'll find that the[00:12:00]person is working in an environment that has more toxins than normal. And so we have to kind of work extra, a little extra to release that or clear that out. And even for IVF, I like to do that as well. Right after retrieval do some kind of like very mild, you know, nothing too harsh But like mild liver detox to just help the body release the excess hormones, you know Because I really feel like that aspect of it can really impact the way the reproductive health expresses itself. Allison:yeah, I completely agree. I think there's a lot of, a lot of things in our world right now that are impacting our liver. And we are, as Chinese medicine practitioners, seeing that reflected a lot in liver cheese stagnation. And I think that's why there's so much PMS and period pain and infertility kind of that's pretty rampant because we are seeing, like I don't think I have a single patient where theirliver didn't need like a little bit of support in the Western sense and in the Chinese. Allison: medicine sense.[00:13:00]So yeah, I do love that you that you do payattention to that. And especially like post IVF or something, when all those medications you're it's really working the liver and not that those are bad medications at all because they're really useful and they're doing really wonderful things for patients to help reach their, their goals. Allison: But yeah, you're right. I do think there is a place where we can kind of help support the liver, especially post IVF. Michelle: Yeah for sure. So as far as endometriosis, I know that like gut health is really, really, really important when it comes to endometriosis. So the inflammation, how that impacts leaky gut. So what are some of the correlations or like the patterns, not necessarily just with Chinese medicine, and you could talk about that as well, but like just some of the links that you've noticed or the things that tend to go hand in hand. Michelle: With endometriosis. Allison: Yeah, that's a really good question. I love that you asked that because endometriosis is such a full body disease, like it's not just[00:14:00]something that's happening in the pelvis. So yeah, the gut connection is huge. I find that to be honestly, like one of the biggest roots of something that we need to focus on and kind of like rectify with a lot of my patients with endometriosis because the gut is such a foundational pillar of health. Allison: And so if there's anything going on there with like leaky gut ormicrobiome or their subclinical gut infections or SIBO or whatever is going on, then we really need to work on. Kind of correcting the dysbiosis because not onlydoes that create a lot of inflammation, but there's also such a huge microbiome and bacterial component to endometriosis. Allison: Like, there's so much research coming out about how people withendometriosis have different vaginal and uterine microbiomes. And all of our microbiomes in our body are connected. So I really do feel like if we focus a lot on gut health and working on any kind of issues that are super apparent there, then it makes such a huge difference in like overall inflammatory levels, which are totally going to[00:15:00]help with a lot of the endosymptoms and the endo pain.  Allison:But also kind of helping with the microbiome component is really important for fertility because we do know a good vaginal and uterine microbiomeis super important for fertility, but I also find it really helpful for endosymptoms. And then I also love looking at the nervous system because I find that if we're kind of like, if we've got some like circadian rhythm dysfunction, because we're not sleeping well or we don't have good sleep hygiene or if we're just kind of continuously operating out of fight or flight mode and we're just never in parasympathetic mode, that's going to totally cause a lot of inflammation in the body and that's going to absolutely affect your endometriosis. Allison: So those are two things that I find. a lot of people with endo can benefit from working on. And that's, yeah, correcting any gut dysbiosis and really working on gut health. And then also really working with the nervous system. Like we really need to work on this chronic stress epidemic and like having a good circadian rhythm. Allison: I've been doing a[00:16:00]lot of, I've been like looking a lot into like the cortisol awakening response lately. I've been really nerding out about it and how it's how your cortisol levels like really need to have that initial spike in the morning. And not only for you to like feel good and get out of bed, but also it's areally important indicator of like inflammatory levels in your body. Allison: And there's also a really important autoimmune component. And we do know that endometriosis has this kind of auto-immune overlap with it. And so any of my patients that I am hearing like, Oh, how do you feel like when you get out of bed? Like, how long does it take you to kind of feel alive in the morning? Allison: Once you get out of bed, if it's like, Oh, two hours and five cups of coffee. I definitely know that there is some cortisol awakening response that we need to kind of work on in order to like really help with the immune and inflammatory stuff. So, yeah, those are a couple of things that I'm always looking at for my endo patients. Michelle: That's really great information. Vaginal microbiome I think is huge because I actually was at a mega spore[00:17:00]biotic on the microbiome labs.They had a little conference and I listened to a lecture by Dr. Jolene Brighton and she was talking about the vaginal microbiome and Allison: Oh, I love her. Michelle: She's amazing.Michelle: She always has great information. She just always delivers. And so she talked about that and she said that in, in Spain, they'll always check the vaginal microbiome. And especially when people are doing IVF and transfers specifically. And I had one of my patients going to Spain. Michelle: A lot of people go to Spain. I mean, they save money. The only thing is they lose money with the flights and everything, but they're really good doctors and like the clinics are great. And so what they do is they actually have, I'm almost like always on a protocol to check their vaginal microbiome. Michelle: They always check it before transfers and they have these women going on vaginal suppositories for the microbiome to support it. And I had. A recent patient who was like advanced[00:18:00]maternal age and she's pregnant. But she was on the suppositories. Michelle: They were checking and making sure because they said that she was mentioning that there's a link between, I guess, imbalanced vaginal microbiomes, a little different in the sense that it's. Like, you don't want diversity. You want it to be more like a specific type of strain. She was saying that there's a connection between a poor balance of the vaginal microbiome and recurrent miscarriages, unexplained infertility and failed transfers. And that's huge. That's so important. And nobody really checks here. Like. In our world, North America. Allison: Yeah. Well, actually in Vancouver, where I am, there's one clinic that does for some patients. And I, I have like the past, yeah, the past year. So I've been having a lot more patients do some microbiome testing. They'll do the swab. It's called the Emma Ellis. I think that they do it here. In in a couple of the clinics and they'll do the probiotic suppositories. Allison: And I honestly like tell my patients to go get them[00:19:00]too and jerk them where they can find them because I think it's always a benefit. Like it's not, it's such a harmless intervention. It can only help like and it's, they're so easy to do. It's so affordable. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and it does improve transfer results and pregnancy rates and everything, and so, yeah, I'm, I'm a huge fan of  Michelle: no brainer. Allison: testing for fertility. Allison:Yeah, Michelle: Yeah. It's a no brainer. And I think that it's so important and I, I'm so glad you brought it up. And I'm glad to know that some places are doing it places. I haven't seen it yet. I haven't seen that to be like really. And I've been actually running it for some of my patients. But I'm glad to Allison: Oh, nice. Michelle:people are starting to do that. Michelle: That's great. And then as far as a nervous system and circadian rhythm, that's huge because it's kind of like, I always look at it almost as like the second-hand is going to impact the hour hand. So like the second hand could be like our 24-hour cycle versus our 30 day cycle or[00:20:00]infradian rhythm. So the circadian rhythm impacts the infradian rhythm. Michelle: So it's important to have a good circadian rhythm. Interestingly, if I lookback, I had, I also have a history of We all started as patients, a lot of us. So I have a Allison: Yeah, right? Ah. Michelle:I did was I, I used to have the worst circadian rhythm. I used to not beable to wake up in the mornings. Michelle: Like I would, if left to my own devices, I would stay up until like, I would sleep until 2 PM some days when I was like younger in my twenties, andthen I'd. I'd stay up till two, three, four sometimes. I mean, I was just completely off and I don't know, I always blamed it on college or whatever, but it was just definitely my rhythm. Michelle: It was just the way my body was. And now I'm much more regular just over time. And it kind of synchronized with like my, menstrual cycle. So is that something that you see often?[00:21:00]Allison: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, and it always kind of goes back to like, Chinese medicine roots of like, we, we need to sync with nature. Like, when the sun's down, that's our yin time. That's not the time to do a lot of work or exercise. That'sthe time that we're supposed to be slowing down. We're supposed to be asleep.  Allison: Like, I'm always coaching my patients, like, I want you in bed. by 10pm, 11pm at the latest. I do not care if, like, you're naturally a night owl. Like, that is the kind of ideal Chinese medicine bedtime. Because we really do get those better hours of sleep in the earlier hours of the night. We get that deep, restful sleep. Allison: And it really does make a huge difference. I've been, yeah, personally, like, really prioritizing regular sleep cycle the past couple years. And it's been, like, revolutionary for me for how I feel like mood and energy, but also I my endosymptoms and I also had an autoimmune disease. And so it's been really helpful for that. Allison: So I think it's really easy to overlook the basics of like, well, I'm gettingmy eight hours, even if I'm going to bed at 2am or,[00:22:00]you know, sleep, I'm getting enough, I'm getting about six, seven hours. That should be enough. But it's like really irregular times. Like your body can't really cope with that. Allison: And I think it's really important that we go back to these like. Super basic principles of like, are you sleeping on time? Are you eating at regular intervals?Are you doing regular movement? Like these really basic things, these small habits really add up to make such a huge difference in health problems and especially even like super complex chronic health problems. Allison: It can be really revolutionary. Michelle:Oh yeah. And there's definitely studies that have been linked to irregular periods and also infertility when it comes to having night shifts. So like night shift hours, it really impacts the reproductive health. So it's really fascinating because it's not just the hours. It's really when it's the, when. Michelle: not just the amount. Allison: Mm hmm. Michelle: So I studied Ayurvedic medicine. That was also very eye opening when it comes to like really understanding the rhythms of nature and how[00:23:00]our bodies synchronize and also the elements of food and really understanding like how our bodies do better. Michelle: It's almost like really understanding the time cycle of the day and optimizing it. And when it comes to intermittent fasting. Fasting itself is actually really, it could be very beneficial if done right. And I want to say that like really,really in strong words, if done right, because I personally, from what I understoodand how much I've, I've learned as far as the sun goes, like the sun helps our acne, which is our digestifier. Michelle: So if we, the best time to eat really is during the day. So breakfast lunch, lunch should be the largest meal of the day and that's when you should have those difficult to digest proteins and have that like during that time because at that time the sun is at its highest Where the day is the most young it could be and so you want that young energy that[00:24:00]fire to be supported by nature's rhythms to help your own digestive fire and And then what you could do if you want to fast is fast at night versus in the morning. Michelle: And that's what a lot of people do. They'll fast in the morning and it's been shown that it could possibly not be great for women because it's been mostly studied on men and they have a completely different rhythm. So that's something that I always suggest. If you really do feel that you need to fast for a little bit and have like a little break digestive wise, it's better to do it when the sun goes down. Allison: Yeah, I completely agree. And I do feel the same about fasting. Like, I, to an extent, I like fasting, like, you know, a good maybe 12, 13 hours, maybe 14 hours for some metabolically flexible people, but I've always been a huge component of breakfast just because, in Chinese medicine, like, the stomach channel, time, is in that morning, and that's kind of always when historically theysay that's a great time to eat,[00:25:00]and I feel like, yeah, this huge intermittent fasting kind of craze can be good to an extent and when utilized properly, but I'm always going to go back to, like, what have we been doing for 2, 000 years that has been working really well? Allison: Like, I think there's a lot of parts to Chinese medicine where yeah, a lot of the health trends and health fads are just not going to resonate, and that's kind of,like, always my good reminder of like, okay, well, let's go back to what nature and what has been working for humans for, you know, thousands of years. Allison: Right. Michelle: think about like the light cause like light light hygiene, cause you want to call it, you want, you want to get exposure to light early in the morning so that your body knows. Cause that's how our bodies respond. Our bodies really respond to light. So I always kind of, I always prescribe this, like go early in the morning, get some sunlight while it's safe early, early. Michelle: And then of course, obviously protect your skin if you're skin sensitive and especially later on, but like early in the morning, it's easier. For your body to process.[00:26:00]I almost kind of compare this in my mind as like a hose of water. So you want water. When it's trickling, it's much easier to drink. Michelle: And then like in the middle of the day, when it's like shooting out, you're, you're going to choke. It's too much. So it's better to have it early in the morning. We're able to really get the vitamins. And I remember my grandmother always telling me early morning sun will give you the most vitamins. Michelle: That's how she explained it. The most nutrients. And she was right. She was right. She said that. She's like early morning sun. That's what you want. And so, and not only that, it also anchors the circadian rhythm and then also getting moonlight. So like not having the fake light, dimming the light at night, and that could really, so that's why I would say like light hygiene is to kind of dim it at night so that we go back to our roots. Michelle: And this is just, it's what nature has intended for us. Allison: Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. All of that. I mean, it's always a good reminder to go back to[00:27:00]nature of, like, the super basics. When it's dark, like, it should be dark. It should be quiet. It should be in. It should be asleep. And then, yeah, during the daytime, that's when things are active, including our digestive system. Allison: Like, it seems, yeah, nature was designed for it to be pretty clear to us,like, what we're supposed to be doing. Michelle: Yeah. For sure. And what are your thoughts about taking melatonin supplements? Allison: think it can be helpful. I mean, I am not a huge and high dose melatonin. So I'm more of like the one to three milligrams because that's kind of akin to what is naturally produced in the body. There are a lot of there's some research that shows that a high dose can be good for endometriosis, like even up to 10 milligrams because of its antioxidant effect. Allison: But I, I've, I've only had it be helpful for a small group of patients, like not a lot. So it's not my favorite one to go to because I just, I don't think that it's going to be hugely beneficial for the circadian rhythm. But I do find it[00:28:00]helpful for some patients and I love it as like a general antioxidant. Allison: If your levels are kind of low because you know, we're not, we have so much light in the night time and stuff. So our bodies are naturally kind of, I bet a bit melatonin deficient. If it's, if you're taking a decent dosage of like one to three milligrams and it's really helping you sleep and you're noticing a huge difference, awesome. Allison: But I also see a lot of patients where it doesn't do a lot for them or it makes them feel groggy. And so I think it's a really case by case dependent. Like if it works for you and you're on a good dosage, awesome. If it's not, like I'm not too hard pressed, like there's a lot of other alternatives. I like, I love a lot of adaptogens and stuff. Allison: too, that can kind of help reset their circadian rhythm too. So, yeah, it's not my absolute favorite go to but there is like some really good research with it for fertility and egg quality because of its antioxidant effect. So I don't hate it. Michelle: Yeah. Well, the great thing is, is that getting that early morning sunlight induces cellular melatonin. So it actually brings that out of you, so it is a great way to get that, Allison: that is true. Michelle: natural light,[00:29:00]but also through light therapy. So light therapy can help that as well. Michelle: So is there anything else that you're like passionate about, excited about that you're like learning about recently that you're finding is really helpful for your patients? Allison: Besides the cortisol awakening response, which I've been really nerding out about and just like cortisol in general, I find it's such an underrated hormone and people are either like, Oh, we want to squash it or we want to raise it. But that's like so much more complex and intricate than that. So I've been really kind of diving into that and like some more Dutch test stuff. Allison: I find, I am always just learning, I love learning so much about estrogen metabolism and methylation because I find that a lot of patients who are struggling with reproductive health stuff and fertility and especially endo and stuff a lot of them are, we're just not metabolizing and methylating estrogen correctly. Allison: And so it's, that's causing a lot of symptoms. And so I've been really kind of doing a lot of research into that, which I've been finding so interesting. So yeah, I feel like that's kind[00:30:00]of, yeah, liver, cortisol, all that kind of Michelle: stuff, liver stuff again. So what, what have you. Allison: Always back to the liver. Michelle: Yes. What have you seen is effective for estrogen metabolism. Allison: yeah, well, it depends, like, at which phase people are having the issues. If it's, like the metabolizing into the 4 2 OH, or if it's, like, the actual methylationprocess, because there's different, you know, supplements and herbs that all, I'll recommend. So that's why I really love testing. So we can really like see exactly where the issue is, or if it's in phase three estrogen metabolism, where we really need to focus on the gut health again because there's too much beta glucuronidase,that's recirculating estrogen levels and stuff. Allison: And so there's different things that we can do for that. But yeah, I just love like, The basic things that your liver needs is like magnesium, B vitamins enough protein, enough iron. Like there's some really basic stuff that I think, if a lot of if we're just really focusing on through like healthy nutrition and stuff, then alot of that stuff can be helped. Allison: [00:31:00]So we don't, honestly, we don't even need like, crazy amounts of supplements and herbs if there's these issues going on. Sometimes your body just needs like a really basic levels of magnesium and B vitamins and hydration and amino acids and stuff and then all these things can kind of work efficiently. Michelle:Yeah. Sometimes I find just warm water and lemon on an empty stomach every day because lemon is like the sour taste for the liver. Just something like that. It's such a simple, it's so simple. It's almost too simple that people think it's like, how could this work? It's too simple, Allison: Yeah. Michelle: amazing that I find. Allison: Yeah, that's kind of how I feel about like castor oil packs, too. Michelle: Yeah. Oh, yeah. So talk about those because that that's actually really effective I find and moving like the lymph and moving that stagnation. Allison: Absolutely. Yeah, I'm a huge fan of castor oil packs, especially like after my patients have endosurgery where they have laparoscopic abdominal surgery to remove the endo lesions. I love using[00:32:00]castor oil packs post operatively to help like reduce scar tissue formation and to really help with the healing process and the blood circulation and lymphatic movement and everything. Allison: So castor oil packs are basically you apply castor oil to the abdomen or liver and then you place a heat pack on it and you kind of just relax with the heat. To as the oil kind of seeps into your skin and does all the magic that it needs to. And it is such like a simple intervention just like warm lemon water in the morning that I find is just such an easy thing to do. Allison: It's really cost effective, it's really relaxing. Like it doesn't take a lot of effort. You can do it like while you're watching tv. Like it's a really easy thing to kind of incorporate into, into your life. But I do find it really, really helpful for like reducing period cramps, helping people to recover post abdominal surgery for liver detoxification. Allison: Like done regularly, it can, you know, have a lot of really positive impact. Michelle: for sure And what are your thoughts on when to do it on the menstrual cycle because I do hear like conflicting perspectives on when[00:33:00]you should do it and then you can also move it at certain times to the liver rather than the abdomen. Allison: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, so I'll never recommend it during menstruation, or like at least during your heavy days because I do think it can cause a little bit too much blood circulation and that just might increase the bleeding. And then I'll never recommend it after ovulation if you're trying to conceive. Allison: So if there's any chance of pregnancy, we kind of just want to like take care of that like precious area. We don't want to do anything to moving or detoxing. Like that's even like a point in the menstrual cycle where I won't do too many abdominal points. Like I kind of just like let your body do what it needs todo. Allison:Like it knows how to do it. I'll do a lot more distal stuff to kind of help with blood circulation and hormone balance and whatever we're working on. But yeah, anytime that there's any chance of pregnancy, I like to leave the lower belly alone. Michelle: No, it's true. I, I do the same thing. Actually. I do like right after ovulation. I tell them not to do it and they're like, and it pretty much[00:34:00]minimizes the window to like, after period, you know, in between that point, but I, usually like to be a little more conservative on that as well, unless you're trying to prepare your body ahead of time. Allison: I'm definitely on the cautious side. Michelle:Yeah, me too. You might as well. Yeah, totally. So this is great. Great conversation. I'm sure we can keep talking about all kinds of topics and questions.And so if people want to work with you, so you do Dutch testing, you do sometesting and you do some online work. Allison: Yeah, so I'm CFG healing on all the social medias and my website. I'm seeing patients in person in Vancouver and Burnaby, British Columbia, and I do see a small amount of patients virtually. So if you're elsewhere and want to work with me, we can do some telehealth. Michelle: Fantastic. Well, Alison, it was awesome speaking to you. And thank you so much for your insight and information. And guys, I[00:35:00]definitely recommend you check out her Instagram because it's like loads of information. You're going to learn so much. I'm learning so much because I love really collaborating and talking to other practitioners because you can always learn something new. Michelle: That's what I find. You just can always learn something because everybody has a different perspective. Allison: Yeah, that's so true, and I'm an avid regular listener to your podcast, and I could say the same. I always learn so much from you and all the people that you interview, so thank you for doing what you do. Michelle: Oh, that's awesome. Well, I admire you. So that's really nice to hear that coming from you. So thank you so much, Alison, for coming on today. Allison:Thanks, Michelle.            

Monica digs into the Democrat race for president in 2024 (and yes, the race is on), dispels the myth of Biden inevitability, and talks with Joel Gilbert, creator of the documentary and book "Michelle Obama 2024" about the increasing possibility that Michelle Obama may end up the nominee. Buckle up!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Monica digs into the Democrat race for president in 2024 (and yes, the race is on), dispels the myth of Biden inevitability, and talks with Joel Gilbert, creator of the documentary and book "Michelle Obama 2024" about the increasing possibility that Michelle Obama may end up the nominee. Buckle up!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Get in the hot seat! Anne & Lau put on their casting director hats as they host live auditions with members of the BOSS community. There is something magical about a live audition…especially when the casting directors switch up the script at the last minute. These auditionees were on their toes, reading cold & nailing it. Anne & Lau share their favorite tips for before the audition & reflect on all that went right (and wrong). Stay tuned to hear who got a callback + will be featured in next week's episode. Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Woohoo!. Hey everyone. Welcome to the Vo BOSS podcast and the Business Superpower series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, along with my very special guest co-host Lau Lapides. Woohoo. Lau: Hey everyone. Anne: Hey Lau. Lau: Happy Saturday. Anne: Lau, we have a extra special podcast edition today. We are doing live auditions for the very first time, and I am so excited. Lau: I love it. I love it. It's my specialty. I can't wait, Anne, can't wait. Anne: And we are going to be having people come on doing live auditions as well as people in the audience and will be joining us later on for a Q and A. So I am so very excited. Now, live auditions. Remember back when before the pandemic, when we would go into studios and audition for direct -- casting directors? Ugh. Lau: And that required us to actually see other human beings and talk to them and maybe even shake their hand? Anne: I know. And you know what? And you know what? One of the most important things about that is, is that we would not see the script until we walked into that studio. And there was always the possibility when we actually got into the room, they would change the script on us. Lau: Yes. Anne: So guess what, Lau? Lau: What, Anne? Anne: The client has changed the script. Lau: Ooh. Anne: So for our auditioners out there, and everybody in the audience, I'm sorry, but we had to throw the wrench into the, the loop of things. And we now have a different script that we will be sending to you to live audition with. So I know that Carol is out there waiting to send that new script out with new specs, and we will continue on with the auditions. And I have to say, I just love, I love the Internet and I love technology because it allows us to really do something really cool like this. Lau: Yeah. It's totally amazing. Completely amazing. And you know, just a moment on that real cold impromptu, last minute script, because I know so many voice actors are like, what do you mean? What do you mean? What do you mean? Meanwhile, you have to calm down and take a breath because so many of us are either on a pay-to-play site, or we're on hold with our agent, or we're working with casting on a project, and it's happening fast. It's coming and going really fast, and you guys are really getting used to turning things around fast. So the idea of a cold script should not put you out at all. It should be kind of like a fun challenge for you and really in your wheelhouse as a pro VO of something that really you need to be able to do. Anne: Yeah. And I can't tell you the countless number of times I've been on a live session where, you know, in the moment they're changing the script. And so you really have to be able to have those muscles to be able to quickly adapt and give the client what they're looking for. So I will say that this was a, a kind of a, a completely different script , but you know, remember we are here for educational purposes, and we hope all of you are going to really enjoy and reap the benefits of this exercise that we're going to be doing. I will go through the specs. Because this is for educational purposes, the specs for this script, uh, are open to all genders and ethnicities. And I will read the specs out loud here. Our FVO is a great actor, there we go, who can effortlessly imbue meaning and nuance into the story. They have lived a rich full life, having seen the world with all its wonders and is able to speak about their experiences with confidence and authority while their delivery has a poetic cadence . And by the way, you guys are all getting this. Um, this is done subtly and with a light touch. They never come across as dramatic, performative or as if they are laying on the gravitas. They are natural and have an air of lightness to the read that balances out their connection to the emotion perfectly. And as always, nothing smooth, nothing polished or announcery at all. . So we've got, that's a big paragraph of specs, Lau. What do you, what's your thought about specifications and when talent, you know, read the specs? Are they, you know, are they trying to match those specs exactly? Or what's important, uh, when it comes time to actually doing this audition? Lau: Great question. And I'll tell you, there's a lot of theories and philosophies about your descriptions, your breakdowns, and how to handle them. One of my favorites as a coach that I use all the time is to ask the talent to not read the specs up front. Now, this -- I'm not talking about today, because today's session is a live session, and so time is of the essence. But if you were at home and you had a day or two days to turn around an audition, it's a really interesting and telling exercise to not read the specs at all and give your takes and give a whole bunch of takes. And then go back and read the specs and see what did I bring from my point of view, from my interpretation and what kind of matches what the vision of the producer is? Am I in that realm? Am I not in that realm? Anne: Excellent points. Yeah. Let's have Michelle come on in. Hey, Michelle. Lau: Hey Michelle. Michelle: Hi. Can you guys hear me okay? Anne: We can, we can. Thank you for being the first one. I'm excited. Michelle: Oh my goodness. Okay. I just I'm excited to be here as well. Anne: Okay. So would you like a second, because you just got it? I mean, Lau and I can just discuss one other thing quickly about once you're in front of the mic and you're doing a live cold read, Lau, what is your best advice? Oh, for talent? Lau: Oh, wow. That's, that's a great question. First of all, have fun. Enjoy it. You're gonna get very few of those, right, Michelle? I mean, it's just like an exciting, energized, kind of dopamine experience. And for those of us who live on high octane junkies, we love that stuff. It's real time interaction, which I love. And so I would say make sure you're breathing. Make sure you're nice and warmed up, and you take breaks when you need to take breaks. Well, you'd be given a break after you read -- and make specific clear, active acting choices, Michelle, like, don't, don't, uh, generalize it. Don't just fly through it for the sake of time. Really make specific choices that you can change. And you should always have a good two to three really unique interpretations that you could do if they said, yeah, that's good, but can you change it out? You can change it out. Michelle: Got it. Thank you. Lau: Awesome. Anne: So when you're ready, feel free to slate and audition please. Michelle: Michelle Dillard. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you very much. Michelle: Thank you. Anne: Okay. Onto our next auditioner. Uh, on my list. I have Ryan, I hope it's Geiser. Lau: Hello. Anne: Hello, Ryan. Ryan: Oh, cool. I'm in. Lau: Hey Ryan. Ryan: Hi. Lau: Welcome. Ryan: Thank you. Uh, so I'm Ryan Geiser, non-union, MCVO. Um, our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. I was, uh, taking notes, just so you know that if I'm not responding right away, I'm taking notes. So thank you very much. Our next contestant , our next auditioner, I have, uh, Rosie, uh, Roberson? Lau: Yes. Anne: All right. Rosie. Rosie: Hello, everyone. Anne: Hello, Rosie. Nice to see you. Rosie: Well, I'm glad I got in . It's a little tricky there. Just let me know when to start. Anne: Okay. Well, we're ready. Rosie: Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with Expedia membership, you, you can save up at 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors and even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Awesome. Thank you very much. Okay. Our next, I have Manny Cabo. Manny: Hey ladies, how are you? Anne: Welcome. Manny: Welcome. Anne: Thanks for, thanks for joining us. Manny: Oh, thanks for having me. This was a last minute thing. I was, I just got off Covid for like two weeks, so believe me, this is a breath of fresh air. Anne: Oh, lovely. Well, I'm glad you're feeling better. Manny: Yeah, me too. Anne: All right, well, we are ready when you are. Manny: All right, let's do this. Here we go. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors and even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you so much, Manny. Awesome. Next on my list, I have, uh, Josh Wells. Josh. Josh: Hi. How's it going, Anne? Nice to meet you. Hi Lau. Anne: Hi. Nice to meet you too. Welcome. Thanks for joining us. Josh: Yeah. Super excited. Anne: We are ready when -- we are ready when you are. Josh: Heck yeah. Cool. All right. Josh Wells, non-union, Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. Thank you very much. All right. Um, up next, we should have Kelly White. Kelly White. You are next for the live auditions on VO BOSS. Kelly: Hello. Anne: Hi, Kelly. Kelly: Hi there. Nice to meet you Anne. Hi, Lau. Anne: Yes. Wonderful to see you. Kelly: Thank you. Anne: All right, well, we are ready when you are. Kelly: Okay. Kelly White. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Fantastic. All right. Who do I have next? I have Alicia Hiller. Alicia: Hello. . Anne: Hello. Welcome. Alicia: Good -- good to meet you. Hi, Lau. Anne: Yes. Thanks for joining us today. All right, we're ready when you are. Alicia: Alicia Hiller. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Fantastic. Thank you so much. Ah, Aria. Fantastic. Real cold read. All right. So we are ready when you are. Aria: Okay. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever they are. And with a new Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a new hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places when we know a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. All right, cool. Thank you, guys.wor Anne: Thank you. All right. Um, and now Carole. Carole, we're ready when you are. Carole: All righty. Thank you. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors and even more places knowing we got great deal -- knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. Carol. Just remember a lot of times we have auditions with instructions, right? It's important to just go through those instructions too. And I know like you know, there's a lot of people who like, you know, and the forms we'll talk about, well, you know, should I get SourceConnect and then, you know, or should I wait until I get my first client? And this would be one of the reasons why , why you wanna make sure you test out all those tech things first. I am proud to be able to to give you this technical -- these technical issues to help you to learn because you know, it's all our mission, right, Lau -- our mission is to educate. Lau: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm like, you know, I'm not a negative Nelly at all. But I'm very much a realist and I say to folks, even if you've used your program, even if you've used your booth a million times, get in there early. Because anything that can go wrong probably will. And you wanna be able to have time to troubleshoot that and not miss out. So it is a good lesson. It is. Anne: Nicole. Nicole: Hi. Anne: Hi. Welcome. Nicole: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited. Anne: Yes, absolutely. Well, we are ready when you are. Nicole: Okay. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. There you go. Anne: Thank you so much. Nicole: Thank you. Anne: I remember being in the LA area, and of course, Lau, I mean, maybe if you ever had to run into the city to do a live audition, right, traffic, traffic. And so when the audition time was slotted right, you would I -- you would pray that there was no traffic jam that would be holding you up. And if you did hit a traffic jam and you got there late, sometimes you missed the audition. Sometimes you got there way early and that therefore you had the script. So I kind of like how we're really mimicking this. You would, you know, you'd be able to practice with the script a little bit longer if they had a, if you had a line in front of you. So, you know, I feel that there's all these -- this tech issues are kind of mimicking the traffic that we would hit when we would be, you know, in the car on the way to the studio. And thankfully now, we can, you know? Lau: The, the one, the one element of this that I think is really different and unique to the circumstance, that is sometimes we can't help tech glitches when they happen, and sometimes we can. And so just kind of knowing the difference. Like I'll give you an example. For instance, if someone knows that they have to be on a laptop and have to go through Chrome in order to do the audition, it's really on that person to go on a laptop and go through Chrome. That's something that could be avoided, but all of a sudden my transmission is bad because the hurricane, all of a sudden, you know, my lights go out. You know, that's something I can't help. So I think being able to determine what I sort of have control over and I sort of don't have control over -- and then the other thing too, and this is just me, you and I are exactly alike in this way, Anne, I will leave four hours early to get to an appointment, knowing that if I'm three hours early, I can do my work, I can have coffee, I can shop, I can do whatever. I don't wanna do the last minute thing ever. Like that really stresses me out. And so just for everyone coming in, like leave yourself plenty of time. Anne: Oh, fantastic. Stephanie. Stephanie: Hi. Anne: Welcome. Stephanie: Thank you. Shall I? Anne: Thanks for being here. Yes, we are ready when you are. Stephanie: Okay. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors even in more places, knowing we got a deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you so much. So Lau, I have my notes ready and you have your notes ready. Let's talk. Lau: I do. And I am wondering whether it's now or maybe later, if we could also go over some of our top kind of rules of the road in this kind of an audition. We talked a little bit about it throughout, but like, what are our top, you know, 5, 6, 7, 8 things that we wanna see people be prepared to do or not do that happened today? Like, because here's the thing, from the talent's point of view, they see nothing. Like they know nothing and see nothing. You, I ,and Sean we're doing this whole massive thing -- and Carol -- this whole massive thing to make this session run. Anne: Right, behind the scenes. Lau: I would love to share a little bit of that so that again, we can go back to what is in my power to change and control and prepare for and what is really not. Anne: Fantastic. Lau: Are you okay with that? If we like just throw a few rules of the road in? Anne: Yeah, absolutely. So let's go ahead and start, Lau. Lau: Okay. I'm gonna start. So one of the things that is -- and again, I'm sharing this educationally, I don't want anyone to feel like we're chiding you or, or, or, you know, cussing you out or anything. It's not about that. This is about education. So that when you're on the real deal in the real scene, a lot of this will sort of dissipate, and you'll be able to work streamlined like a pro. So this entire time, and you'll see my head was down a lot when you see the video of this -- why? Not because I was falling asleep, because I was constantly texting, constantly emailing and helping people troubleshoot all along the way. Now I'm not the tech person to help you troubleshoot. I was expediting those emails and texts over to Anne, over to Sean, over to Carol where they needed to go. In the real world, you won't be able to do that. This is not the real world. This is our educational fun forum. But in the real world, there will be no one to text, no one to email, and no one to help you tech troubleshoot. So, simple things to avoid, I really want y'all to avoid is knowing the device you have to be on, knowing the, uh, uh, application or the program you need to be on, testing it through, preferably the day before rather than the day of. And also being in a solid space where you've got some audio integrity. You're not in the middle of a huge room or in a car or in a big living room to get the best quality that you can get. So those are all, in my mind, things you can somewhat control so that you can get to the next step, which is your talent, your work, your audition. Many of you couldn't get to it fully, 'cause I know most of you. You just couldn't get to it fully because you were so concerned about the tech, about all the tech stuff that was going on. Anne: And, and also, I do wanna say that those instructions were sent out a couple of days in advance, even though our, we changed the script on you. The instructions were sent out. And, and look, most people, if it's going to be a technical, you know, if it's going to be something technical like this where you're joining, uh, remotely via, you know, SourceConnect, ipDTL or some other form like Riverside, it is definitely advantageous to, uh, to test that technology out. You know, it's always wonderful to have a group of, you know, of, of colleagues that you can work with at any given time and say, hey, look, can you help me test? I mean, there's a lot of you know, forums and groups out there that say, hey, I need to do a SourceConnect test right now. Can you help me somebody test with me? So make sure that if this is something that you need to, to do, to do it in advance. And especially if, you know, a lot of times we're asked to record as well, and this could just be something maybe we're recording in, you know, through, uh, SourceConnect Now, or we're recording locally or whatever it is, Make sure that you hit that button and test it in advance. And so not having the technology throw your performance, which I'm sure it probably did for some of us a little bit, and I feel like, I feel like I might have heard that in some of your reads. Um, and as well as, you know, everything that you can possibly do to make that session go smooth. And also, you know, trying not to let that show when you get in the room to actually do the audition. Right? It's in and out and no excess. Nothing necessarily in terms of like, not too much small chat because -- Lau: Anne, you took it outta my head. You took it right outta my mouth. That was my next point, was like, there used to be an ad campaign many years ago for a deodorant, never let 'em see you sweat. That's where like, we're an actor. We're an actor, we're an actor. And what do actors do? They have to act. And that doesn't mean in the role all the time, that means as a business person, like you have to make your client feel like everything's okay. Anne: Oh yeah, absolutely. Lau: Don't worry about it. The sky isn't falling, even though it may not be okay. And you may not be able to audition and they may be disappointed. Don't let them feel like you are disappointed, you're upset, you're worried, you're scared, because that, that mirrors onto them. And then that, that becomes a, like a, you know, a, a slippery slope as they say. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Lau: You know? Anne: Absolutely. Lau: But then being said, Anne, I do wanna congratulate everyone for the ones that -- actually most people were able to get in and show up and do -- almost all. And I just wanna give you a huge round of applause in kudos for doing that, despite your issues and your tech glitches and your confusion and your craziness. Look, you did it. You showed up. You went through it. That's the pro that we wanna build onto. Anne: Yeah. And I, and I wanna say thank you, really. I mean, this is, this was the first time that we've done this. And I think that it's, I like to believe that it's educationally valuable to, you know, the community. And I thank you for being a part of that, uh, from the bottom of my heart, really. Um, I'm really proud of all of you. Number one, it's a Saturday. So thank you for coming out and doing that and then dealing with tech frustrations. And so let's talk a little bit, Lau, about selections. Do you, do you -- Lau: Let's. Do you want to create our shortlists? Anne: I think we should create our shortlists. So first of all, I'm gonna say uh, you know, for, for a lot of the people, I feel that because it was a cold read, there were a lot of reads that sounded a little bit cold read. Um. And so if you had time, right, if you were not the first person, literally, or even if you were the first person, like the, I think my suggestion would be out of the mouth immediately once you get that script. Um, you know what I mean? Get that, get those words out of your mouth because that becomes muscle memory. That's gonna help you make it not sound like a cold read. It's gonna help you get the context of the script quickly. And remember, we are storytellers. We need to tell the story. Even though this was a short script, there was a definite story there. And I needed to feel, above the words coming out correctly, I needed to feel the warmth, the emotion, the point of view. Lau: Mm. I love all that. And as an actor, I mean, I think, you know, we have to choose very specific, very quick actor choices. We don't know if they're gonna work. We don't know how they're gonna land, but we have to be connected to something that's real. We have to know who am I speaking to and what am I connecting to. I like to use props. I mean, I'm a big prop -- like even if I'm, you know, if I'm doing a, a makeup ad, I might have my lipstick ready to go. You may never see it, right, 'cause I'm a voiceover. So you may never see it, but I feel it. I smell it. It's in my hand. There's something, you know, visceral about stuff that is real, that I can hold, I can use, I can feel. I like that. And engaging the body as well. So whether I'm sitting, I'm standing, whatever I'm doing is like, how does this translate within my body? Where's the energy coming from? You know, some of you came in with really warm, rich, textured sound, and that felt right to me. It felt like a way to go. It felt like a path. And as I watched you, I could sort of see where that vibration was coming from. I could sort of see where that was coming from today. So I think not disconnecting your head and your voice from the rest of your body and your spirit is super important. Anne: Now I'm also gonna point out that, you know, part of the specs and, and I think part of what I think innately most people are looking for in this style of, of script is something, you know, uh, not, uh, nothing smooth, polished, or announcery at all. Okay? So that's hard when you're doing a cold read. So the sooner I said, the sooner you can get that script outta your mouth -- and by the way, if you weren't one of the first few that came on board, you know, maybe that's something you were doing in the background right? Until we called you, because we definitely had enough time now through this whole process where people towards the end had a good, ample amount of time to kind of get a feel for that script, you know, and, and really, and do and, and just really feel the copy, understand the copy, know what story you're telling. Natural, and again, I'm looking at some of the specs that we were looking for, you know, natural, not performative, not laying on the gravitas, um, an air of lightness to the reed, which I liked. Um, there was some really nice light reads in there that I liked. Um, what else can I say about, you know -- and I think following the specs is one thing, but then adding something different, right? In addition to making it that non-announcery, telling the story, there, there, I think trying to incorporate something that's a little bit different, a little bit unique, uh, something that you think no other talent is going to give, right? That might surprise us. So I had a couple of, you know, as I was typing madly my notes, a couple of melodies that I heard in there that were really nice, There was like a, a, a lilt on one of the words or maybe a little point of view that was different than I was anticipating, which made me stand up and take notice. And guess what I did, Lau? I actually starred those, uh, those reads. And those are the people that I am, I have on my list to call back. So. Lau: They got Anne's gold star. That means something. Anne: They got my stars. Lau: That means something, right? I love that. That's great. I love that. Oh, there's a point I was just gonna make and I forgot what I was gonna say, but, but I'm hearing you on what you're saying, Anne, because I think that the, that that disappointment, if you will that word disappointment of, I'm ready, I'm prepared, I'm doing this -- wait a second, I'm not doing that. I'm doing something else. Whatever that is, that disappointment, that surprise, that let down that, that confusion, like, it's really important to feel that and be in that space. Certainly as casting as you are, as agent as I am, we're constantly dealing with that. Just when I think it's one thing and I know it, it turns into something else and I don't know it. And typically it's because of priority. So if someone switches a script or someone switches an audition, it's typically, typically because another audition came in that's much more time sensitive. So we have to, I might love say Manny or Kelly or Stephanie, but I also kind of love them for this new one that came in. So I want them to put that on hold just for a second and take this script and do it. So being able to improvise, impromptu, shift fast, interpret fast, I think is really important. Anne: Yeah. And, and before we actually I think reveal, because you and I, I mean, I have my list and you have your list, so we need to agree upon five people that we're gonna be calling back. Uh, I, I really just wanna say that, that it's something, that's something different, right? Uh, the more that you can practice reading your scripts, I mean, I can't say enough how, how important it is to just find different scripts, read, practice all the time, audition -- it, it just helps you to be stronger. And get feedback from, you know, from coaches and, and people that you trust that have been in the industry, that can really help you to, to, you know, uh, perform better and make those bold moves, and workout groups I think are so important. Um, like I have my VO Peeps group and every month, you know, we are working out, and, and, and I know that Lau, you have the same thing. Uh, those are so important to help you get that practice under your belt so that you can -- you need to experience all the different styles, all the different reads in order to make mistakes and grow from them. Lau: Absolutely. Anne: Think it's all about growth, all about growth as an actor. And, and if you're not doing something every day that is voiceover, that is, uh, you know, looking at different scripts, scenarios, practicing, working, uh, I, I think you're, you're missing the boat on growing as an actor. Lau: Right, right. And I think it's also the how we deal with stress. How do we balance, how do we manage time? How do we manage our crazy lives when this stuff comes in? Because you -- you know, I always say be careful what you wish for. You might get it . And when it comes in, it always comes in at the most in inopportune times. It always comes in at the time when you're the busiest, and you're working, and you have events, and you have kids. It always does 100% of the time. So you kind of always have to set your life up that I can go in the space, I can do this quickly, I can make it happen even though I've got a whole bunch of layers going on around me. They don't need to know about it. As we always say, uh, leave your trash at the door. You can come get it on your way out. Don't bring it into the studio. Um, and, and being able to really practice that, really practice that skill along with your actual delivery skill. 'Cause it's a whole other skill, that's an executive functioning skill. That's like, how do I manage 25 things at once and how do I make those 25 things all feel important and all feel like I'm not getting crazy? Like, that's, that's a functioning skill that we have to practice and we have to really work on every day along with the actual acting skills. Anne: Yeah. Right. Lau: That is, we work -- Anne: On, Oh, I'm sorry. I, I was just, I was thinking, I was thinking, uh, while you were talking. Now as we reveal -- Lau, I'm gonna have you read, you know, maybe a list or a couple of people that you, that you kind of have selected and we'll see if we agree. Lau: Yeah. Actually, can I ask you, Anne, just to crosscheck, how many out of our list do we have that actually auditioned? Or maybe I should say how many did not audition? 'Cause it seemed like most auditioned. Anne: Three, uh, three did not. Um. Lau: Okay, great. Yeah. So we had 12 -- Anne: Well, actually, actually two out of the list did not, and then you added, uh, Brit, so. Lau: Okay. So we actually had 12 or 13? Anne: Yep. We actually had 12. Lau: Fantastic turnout. Anne: Out of the original list we had 13. Yeah. Lau: Don't you think that's -- Anne: That's fantastic. Lau: That's a fantastic turnout because we always have, in any audition, a percentage of people who do not audition. There are no shows where they just don't audition for many reasons. So that's actually very high, that level of -- Anne: And they didn't even know their script. Well, they -- Lau: And they didn't know anything and they still showed up. Anne: Yeah. That's good. So. Lau: But see, I think that's a testament. I wanna, I wanna make mention, I think it's a testament to Anne, to myself, and to the nature of this whole group, this whole community of how much we trust each other, we care for each other. And you're just getting to know Anne, many of you, and, and she's part of our community now. And like, like-minded people hold each other up, motivate each other, inspire each other, and through the difficult moments, get each other through it. And that's exactly what happened today. Exactly. And so I just wanna call attention to that from a, a, a social and, and professional friend network, but also a community, sort of inspirational, motivational, holding each other through this. You guys did that, even though you may not have talked to each other. You may not have met with each other. You did that in the space, you did that in the online space. And that's -- Anne: And in the chat. Lau: -- so important to do. Absolutely. The chat. That was great. Okay. So how many, Anne, you think are we gonna shortlist here? Would you say six? Anne: I've, I've got five marked. Lau: Okay. Anne: I've got five marked. Lau: Okay. Anne: Um, so that I'd like to hear, and I, and I just wanna say one other word. Not only was it how I wanted to hear that script in terms of the specs, because consider I am the client or I'm, I'm with the client or I'm representing the client, how I wanted it to be that non-announcery warm feeling with all the, with all the feels, uh, in that description. It's also water. I feel like the voice also, if it hadthe sound that I was looking for. And so there are some that I feel out of the five, I feel some did one better than you know, the other. Um, but they all had something that made me put them on the short list. Lau: So, Okay. So, uh, uh, first of all, everyone had something that I could potentially work with. I would just wanna say that I'm not just saying that to butter people up. I'm saying everyone has a unique quality that I could really direct and work with, but based on what we were looking for and what our vision is, here's some of my top peeps. Okay? I'm just looking my list. Okay. So Manny is one of my tops. Okay? Anne: Agreed. Lau: And I have Kelly, who's one of my tops. Anne: Okay. Lau: And I have Nicole. Anne: Yes. Lau: And I have Aria, and I have, uh, Josh. I wasn't sure how many we're looking for. So -- Anne: Five. Lau: So that's, that's five. I have more. But we'll stop at that. We, we'll stop at that. Anne: Okay. So I have -- I agreed with you on Nicole, Manny, uh, Josh, and then I also had, uh, marked Alicia and uh, Carole. Lau: Good. Three outta five ain't bad. . Anne: Yeah. So, uh, we definitely have the three. Now let's just discuss. Let's just discuss because I think, uh, for me, Nicole had a nice hush that says some of the, the notes that I wrote about Nicole that I really liked. And, and Nicole was also second, so she didn't have a ton of time to prepare. Um, and she came through even with that. Now -- Lau: And you know what I loved about Nicole is when she delivers, there is something that is transfor -- transports me when she speaks that I'm in a different world. I'm in a different mode, I'm in a different world. There's something a little bit magical about her sound that I caught right away. And about her essence, because we were meeting her and seeing her on camera, there's very calm, sort of meditative, logical head on the ground feel to her. And I, that all kind of went together as this really lovely package of someone who I felt really safe with, I felt really good with. Anne: Awesome. Uh, uh, Manny, like from the first few words, I kind of had him marked already. He started off, he started off with a real warm, nice, friendly, uh, not announcery style. And that's what I really, you know, I immediately wrote, you know, stars there. Lau: Yeah, he's super pro. He has a pro sound. There is a polish there without sounding overly announcery. Um, there's a clarity there, and there's also this kind of like sexiness to it that I didn't expect, uh, because I wasn't looking for that. So there was this, uh, appeal to it that, that I really liked. It was almost essential appeal without asking for that, which I liked. Um. Anne: Uh, fantastic. Lau: And he seemed very sure of himself. 'Cause I had not met Manny at all. Anne: Very confident. Lau: He was brought over by a dear friend. And we literally met today when he came in, and I just, I just loved his presence. I just loved his confidence, and I just loved his kind of chill, laidback, but professional guy persona. He had a persona that was very strong that I heard his sound. Anne: Yeah, I agree. I completely agree. Um, Josh, now I have Josh. Um, there was a word of course I was typing so furiously that I couldn't type the word correctly, but he had a word in there that caught my attention, and it was the timbre and the lilt of the word. So as I was mentioning before, sometimes it's just something a little bit different that captures your attention. Um, and so that's one of the reasons why I marked him. Uh, and then, so there's where our three agree upon, and so now we just have to talk a little bit about our ex, our next two. Lau: And I wanted to make mention about Josh too Because Josh, and I don't know, I don't know if this is age related or, or what, but there's, he's right in the middle. There's an interesting gray zone that he's in between that cool -- Anne: Yes, I agree. Lau: -- surfer dude, laidback guy. And someone who's a little bit more professional and on it, someone who's a little bit more with it, the guy in the know. So he has that standup comedy, funny, fun appeal to him, but he has the serious enough that he can land it and have some ethos there. Anne: Agreed. Agreed. Lau: That's why I love Josh. Okay. Um, okay. The two outside of that, yours was Carol and Alicia. Anne: Carol and Alicia. Yes. Lau: You know, close second, this is what people spend fighting behind closed doors about for like hours or days is like you're kind of fighting over people who are all talented. Anne: And that's it. I think, you know, and, and here's the deal, here's where it comes in. So Lau and I are gonna discuss who those other two are gonna be. And, uh, this is probably what happens in most casting , right, offices or whoever's fighting you for the client. And we'll just go back and forth, uh, on the reasons why, you know, we either want this for the callback, right? And, and even what during the callback we'll be figuring out, well, you know, what is the reasoning for any one particular voice? And sometimes you just don't know what that is, and it's not always based on performance sometimes. Lau: No. It's just sometimes it's just like an instinct, a feeling, an impulse. And, and in my mind I'm thinking some of these people are like, oh, okay, so if this person can't do it, they're booked, or they get sick or whatever, then this person could easily go in. Totally. So it isn't the case where I really love this person and I really don't love this -- It's not always that case. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Lau: There's a lot of like, gray zones of people that kind of fall in the same grouping, but that just don't make it to the booking, you know? Um, so Carol's voice is fantastic. I mean, it's very, to me, very corporate sounding. It has very businessy, corporatey, flight attendant-ish, finding the exit kind of sound. I like it. I love it. It's, I felt it was a little bit too objectified, a little bit too removed for the level of warmth that I was, was looking for this 'cause it is travel. When I think about travel now, and I think about number one, trying to reach the younger people, the younger generation, I think about a slightly, you know, not younger -- younger is a mythical word. It's just like a slightly more, more energized or more youthful kind of thing. Anne: Sure. I get that. I get that. Lau: And then also a, a, a little bit of like boxy or squareness in terms of it. Anne: But now when I, of course, Carole, as you said, more corporate and of course, you know, I'm very attuned to the corporate ear because I do a lot of that myself. Now, I'm also gonna say for Carole and thinking of travel, I was thinking, oh, she would make me feel comfortable on a plane, like if she were the flight attendant and so Expedia. So that was one of the reasons I thought it fit. But I'm going actually, and I'll cede you Aria because I love Aria. Lau: You'll raise me Aria. Anne: I'll raise you Aria because even though I didn't check her, I do love that voice. She's got that youthful, that youthful style if that's the market we're looking for. Um, she, you know, we did give her a different script immediately. Like she literally had no time to even voice it and have it come out of her mouth. So I have to take that with, you know, a little bit, uh, you know, a grain of salt because she really didn't even get it out of her mouth, except that was the first time. So for me, I had written that it was a little fast, but I understand why, because it was the first time coming out of her mouth. Now if I'm going on my gut and saying, you know, could you convince me, Aria, um, yeah, you could because of, because I like the timbre, the tone of her voice, the demographic is there for the script. And, uh, so yeah, that's my, that's my thoughts. Lau: And, and you know, I just wanna point out that, you know, if we don't forget about who are really, who's our target demographic for this, and is like both of these women could absolutely deliver this script. But when we get back to, you know, who the client really wants us to be looking at, it's really that, you know, 18 to 35 demographic. Because let's be honest, that's most of the people that are on like Travelocity, Kayak, Expedia, and going up-up-up -- not to say the 40 and up are not doing it, but for this particular one, one of the goals is to kind of find someone who has a bit more energized or youthful presence. Anne: All right. You've convinced me. Lau: So anyway, so that's one issue there too as well. Okay. Anne: Yep. You've convinced me. Lau: Okay, so Alicia kind of fits that. Anne: Okay. Lau: Alicia kind of fits that. Anne: Oh yes. Lau: Um, and I love her quality. She's got a rocky, dirty sort of like textured young sound. So I do like it. I, I felt like it was a little slow, like it wasn't as energized. Anne: Yes, I agree with you there. Um, and I wasn't, I wasn't thinking slow in terms of the read, but more contemplative and thoughtful. And she was another one who had a really nice different sound on the word -- she interpreted the word color toward the end of the script a little bit differently than most other people too, so we can find our colors. And I feel like that the, the operative word obviously in, in any story that we're telling, right, there's some operative words in there that really need to kind of hit the, the listener. Color is one of those words. And she really had a different, a slightly different pitch on the word color, which is why I I marked her. So. Lau: Right. Now, here's the thing that you and I both skipped over. And you guys listening in, this happens all the time. Um, you guys both, ironically we both skipped over the fact that the client does want diversity for these roles. And I don't know how I could skip that over, but I got excited with the switch out of script, but -- Anne: Well, we did change, we did change it for this purpose to all genders and ethnicities. But you're right. I mean, diversity is something that has to be a consideration and -- Lau: Right, authentically, right, diverse. So whereas like someone like Kelly, who I know very well and is a total pro, and can do this in her sleep fits that bill in so many ways and the voice is so layered and rich and textured -- Anne: Oh, I agree with that. Lau: -- and seasoned -- Anne: I agree with that. Lau: You know, it's, we're gonna have to go back and forth on, you know, the age thing and the youthful-ness thing because she's much more of a mature sound in my mind. Anne: My only, my only comments, I mean I did, I did like Kelly, I, my only comments was that she was a little too fast on the read I thought on that. And so, but you know what I'm -- Lau: But we can direct her. Anne: I could -- okay. Lau: Where she's directable. Anne: I feel that she -- all right then, then. Alright, so then I think we have our five then. Lau: And you know how I know she's directable, for those listening in? Because we know her personally. We have a relationship with her. Anne: Okay. Now -- Lau: Normally I couldn't say that if I don't know her. Anne: That's what I'm gonna say. So, and only, and only in this instant, right, if, if you know a casting director, here's an advantage, right? Um, if a casting director has heard you before or hired you before or has worked with you before, you know, it's, it behooves you to have, you know, a, a, an excellent relationship. Or when you work with them, make it as smooth as possible. Make it easy for the casting director. Make it easy for them to work with you, and they'll remember and have you coming back. So. Lau: And quite oftentimes, the casting, we see this all the time at the agency, we'll come back to the agents and go, love it. Great. Good. Need some retakes. It's too slow, I need it, da da da da. Right? And then we can go back to those people and we know that they can do it. They're capable of it. They're willing to. Anne: Yep. All right, So then we have our list, our callbacks. We're gonna call these five people back. Nicole Fikes, Aria Lapides, Manny Cabo, Josh Wells, and Kelly White. Congratulations. I would like to give a great big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect and network like BOSSes. Find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys were amazing. I can't wait for the next episode. Lau, love you. Thank you so much, guys, and we'll see you soon. Lau: Great job. Anne: Bye-bye. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Jenn and Myron talk about fostering dogs, the Killing Eve final season, The Sandman, Michelle Oh in Everything All At Once, domestic terrorism, and why Democrats can be proud of President Joe Biden and VP Kamala Harris.

Designing an intuitive, poolside application that led to 6 gold medals When a key piece of technology broke, Swimming Australia partnered with Slalom Build to help implement a new relay application less than a month before the 2020 Tokyo Games. In this episode, Michelle Oh from the Australia market details the ins and outs of new data-driven application and shares valuable insights on what it was like to leverage machine learning and artificial intelligence to inform competitive race strategies. In this near real-time decision making app, the accuracy of data in a coach's hand is crucial - even being off by .1 of a millisecond could put a gold medal at risk. Contact: Michelle Oh Tags: Build, UI, machine learning, ML, AI, swimming, Olympics, data, analytics, Australia, race, gold medals, PEM, product engineering, AWS, application modernization, experience design, AWS Serverless Data Lake Framework (SDLF)  

Career changes are an inevitable part of life. The way we deal with these transitions will guide the way our life unfolds. Doug and Michelle discuss the dynamics of careers in the current economic environment and the factors that press many people into career transitions. When these career transition points come, it is important to embrace the challenge with an open mind and can-do attitude. Michelle helps people who are going through career changes to find entrepreneurial opportunities that are a fit for their personal and professional background. You can connect with Michelle at mcharles@esourcecoach.com Doug's business specializes in partnering with companies and non-profits to create value and capture cost savings without layoffs to fund growth and strengthen financial results.  You can find out more athttp://www.terminalvalue.biz ( www.TerminalValue.biz) You can find the audio podcast feed athttp://www.terminalvaluepodcast.com ( www.TerminalValuePodcast.com) You can find the video podcast feed athttp://www.youtube.com/channel/UCV5a4QbT-dXhpgb-8HJHdGg ( www.youtube.com/channel/UCV5a4QbT-dXhpgb-8HJHdGg) Schedule time with Doug to talk about your business athttp://www.meetdoug.biz ( www.MeetDoug.Biz) [Music] [Introduction] Welcome to the terminal value Podcast where each episode provides in depth insight about the long term value of companies and ideas in our current world. Your host for this podcast is Doug Utberg, the founder and principal consultant for Business of Life, LLC. Doug: Welcome to the terminal value podcast, I have Michelle Charles on the line. Michelle is actually an entrepreneurial career consultant. And she has the auspicious honor of being the person who initially presented expense reduction analysts to me, which of course is my core business and helping companies, nonprofits, education institutions, reduce their overhead costs, you know, without you know, without needing to resort to layoffs to do it. And so Michelle actually brought her on line, because we're going to talk today about about people's career, and the, you know, the the bumps in the road that a lot of people run into. Michelle, please tell us about yourself a little bit. Michelle: Oh, hi. Hi. Great to be here. Thank you, Doug. Well, I am a career or worship coach, I grew up, I was born in a tiny island about Trinidad in the West Indies, migrated to the United States, I eventually joined the military. And once I retired to the military, I was living my next step, after 25 years, and I decided, you know, I always had an entrepreneurial drive the motivations for, that's what I wanted to do. And that's where I started exploring Priyanka. And I found a path that led me to, that's quite my life.  Doug: Yeah, that's outstanding. Yes. And first of all, for 25 years, and it was in the army, correct?  Michelle: Correct. Yes. 25 years. Doug: 25 years, the US Army, thank you very much for your service, and quite a bit of it at that. Michelle: Thank you, as well to your service. Doug: I guess so yes, I was also in the Marine Corps Reserve, not for 25 years only for six. But but still those. Those can be long years?  Michelle:  Oh. Definitely.  Doug: So Michelle, tell us a little a little bit about some of the things that you've observed in, in helping career coach people. I mean, just because I can tell you what I've what I've observed. But people on the podcast hear enough of me talking and they want to hear you. Michelle: Well, I found that in light of the recent pandemic, a lot of people being forced out of their comfort zones, and they're exploring alternative career options, and just basic self sufficiency.  Doug: Yeah. Michelle: And they now at this point in life, they want to be more in control of their lives, their destiny, their jobs, because the job market is so uncertain that all the. The trouble is happening. Doug: Yeah. Michelle: So I'm...

James: Hey, audience. Welcome to Achieve Wealth podcast. Achieve Wealth podcast focuses on value add real estate investing. I'm James Kandasamy. Today I have an accomplished couple, Jack and Michelle Bosch. And Jack and Michelle Bosch have done more than 4000 land flips across the nation. Land flips is something very interesting to me. And, you know, it's an asset class, or an asset class, which I think is very interesting. And you can learn how we make money out of it. They've done a lot of single-family houses. And they also have done apartments; 330 units apartments. And, you know, they are continuing to look for more and apartments as well, but I think they are the masters of land flip. Hey Jack and Michelle, welcome to the show. Michelle: Thank you so much for having us, James we're excited to be here. Jack: Thank you for having us, James. James: Tell me, did I miss out anything in your credentials or you know, did I -- Jack: No, other than we're both immigrants, we both came from other countries. So we started here with, just like you, just came over from another country and so we have that in common. But now we flip now 4000 pieces of land. We teach it now; so we have seminars on that. But then for asset allocation, basically the money we make for land flips and whichever way rental properties now, we rolled that into more and more two apartments now. Michelle: Yes. James: Got it. Michelle: To produce what we call one-time cash with the land flips like you work for a once and you get paid once. We're also able to produce some cash flow because we are also able to sell those properties using seller financing, you know. James: Got it. Michelle: And so you do get some mailbox money, but those notes usually come to an end once the property is paid off. And so, we're always in the back of our minds is okay, let's roll cash profits and cash flow into what we call forever cash, which would be a partner. James: Got it. Before we go into the detail of land flipping, I want to understand your background because I know all of us are immigrants So can you tell me when did you guys move to the country? And how did you move? Were you already successful on the day that you land in this country? Michelle: Oh no. Jack: Of course, we're like, we're a billionaire. James: Did you find gold outside the boat? Jack: No. So, Michelle… Michelle: Yes, for me I came from Honduras here in 1995 to study. I came to a tiny little town like about three hours South-West of Chicago called McComb, Illinois, that's where I met this man in the middle of the cornfields. It's basically university town, you know, and nothing else to do.I came here for a business degree, my undergrad, and I was in my senior year there, my third and last year when I met Jack. We shared some upper finance courses together because he was here for an MBA, 10 months. He met me and then he couldn't leave anymore. James: Got stuck, you got stuck in the US. Jack: She's right. She summarized it. I came in 1997, Michelle was in her last year in undergrad. I did come in for a Masters to that same university that had an exchange program with the university I used to go to Germany. And I was kind of like be able to kind of accomplish three goals in one year. Number one; I was able to get an MBA in the United States because it was an accredited school and I was studying business Germany. Already had enough credits and I just needed these 10 months, was enough to give me the American MBA. They give me, I tested out and all of these other things. Number two, I was able to get credit for the missing classes in Germany. So with that, I didn't have to go back to Germany to do more classes. I completed my degree in Germany, those same classes gave me the MBA. Also helped me complete my degree in Germany and improve my English. And the fourth and most important thing, I met this one. Michelle: But to answer your question as to whether we came here successful, absolutely not. I came in with two suitcases to my name, Jack pretty much the same. You know, I was raised by a single mom and my father passed away when we were very, you know when I was very young. And it was, you know, she was sending me here to study with a lot of sacrifices. I had to take several courses, you know, take seven courses per semester, like advanced as much as possible, because I couldn't afford to be in the US for more than two and a half, three years, you know what I mean? And eating soup towards the end of the semester when you run out of money. And, but I didn't have, I did have in the back of my mind the thought that real estate has been incredibly good for my family. You know, before my father passed, he had made an amazing decision. And it was to buy a piece of commercial property that to this day spits out cash, you know, for my mother. And so -- Jack: And that piece of property brought her to college here in the -- Michelle: Got me through college. Jack: And still sustains her mom over there. Yes, in my case and my dad's, again the same thing my mom, not the same thing but similar. My dad is a high school teacher, retired now. My mom's a stay at home mom. So no, I came here with student debt. I came here with enough money to pay for one semester, I didn't have, really didn't have a clue, how I would even pay for the second semester. Luckily, I got a job at school. The first car that I bought in the US was a $900 old Chevy caprice, like the old [inaudible05:31] car that they use to drive around -- James: It had four wheels, right? Four wheels? Jack: Four wheels, yes. Michelle: And I was like Jack, why did you get this, I mean, there are so many cars, why did you get this car? And his answer was like, cars in Germany are so tiny, I was looking for the biggest car possible in the US. Jack: Like Germans and every single one of them bought the biggest car that they could find. James: That's good. That's good. Yes, I like to, that's a very interesting story from both of you, right. So I like to, I mean before we go into the technicality of the commercial real estate and all that, I like to understand a lot about the thought process and you know, the people behind it, right. Because I think that's what makes everybody successful. It's not about the tool like real estate, right. So tell me about what was your family thinking when looking about the US from outside, right? Did they think the US is the land of opportunity, easy to get rich? Or how I mean, can you talk about the process that when families outside of the country when they want to send their children to the US, what do they usually think, you know, what do they think that you kids will get here? Jack: Well, I think Michelle's mom was perhaps not thrilled that she would stay here. Michelle: Yes. James: But not thrilled? Michelle: No, yes. James: Okay. Michelle: The whole point was to come here, study, not find a husband, go back home and basically help her manage, you know, this piece of real estate and hopefully, you know, continue growing the legacy that was left to us. James: Okay. Jack: Next, get a job, right? Michelle: Yes, yes. Jack: Same thing here. My parents were absolutely not thrilled that I was staying here behind. They, I literally had the job lined up in Germany. I had the, I just put my student furniture in my parents' basement. I had a good degree from a good university and good things and they're like, what are you doing? What are you staying there? What's going on there, you're so far away. In particular, my mom had a really hard time with it for several years. But then once they saw our success, particularly once we entered real estate, and once we saw success and what that success actually means for them too and for us. It's like we don't, we see our parents, this year we see my parents three or four times even though they live in Germany. And it's like, and they, we support them a little bit financially. They get to come here and they get to spend time here. And they see that they don't have to worry about us like we're the one or like, we're my, Michelle and our family, they don't, they're like a peace of mind. They're okay. They're good. They're happy financially, they're good. So, you know what as a parent you wonder, you want to have that feeling. So they know, ultimately, it's a good decision and took them like 15 years to say that, but they did. Michelle: Yes, I mean, we also contributed to, you know, being able to retire Jack's dad before time. You know, a couple of years before he had been working as a school teacher for many, many years. And he was just at the point where he just didn't want to do it anymore but he couldn't leave it because, you know, that involved a big reduction in his pension if he did. And so we put the pedal to the metal back then and it was just through land flipping, to be able to make up for that, you know, for those two years of early retirement and being able to retire him early. So -- Jack: So he ended up retiring a year and a half, two and a half years early because of that and James: Wow, awesome. Jack: And so overall so now they totally have changed. Michelle: Yes, so family has been always I think also big why for us, a big driver to get things done. James: Got it. That's absolutely what happened, you can come here and help out your family back home. It's just sometimes people, I mean sometimes they think that okay we want to come to the US and stay here but that was not the case for both of you, right? I mean, you came to study and you're supposed to go back. But you got stuck with each other. Jack: The United States is a wonderful country to be. But then we also, we realized, I don't want to live in Honduras, Michelle didn't want to live in Germany. Nothing wrong with these two countries, they are beautiful countries but language barriers, cultural barriers [inaudible09:40] we're already here, let's try to make this work here. We got lucky, we both got jobs here. We got the job that got the visa, the h1B visa, took five and a half years to get to that process. Michelle: And it was a job, jobs we both hated. But we were handcuffed because of the, you know, green card situation. And so we had to stay but -- Jack: Yes, but yes, it was just something, let's see if we can make this work here because we like it here. And we -- James: Got it. Jack: Beautiful neutral ground also for us. James: So do you think that as an immigrant, did that whole life situation gave you a boost, a reason for you to be successful in the US? Michelle: Absolutely, it like, I think it was incredible, it gives you an incredible drive and hunger. Like I don't come from a wealthy society like Jack's, you know. I was going back to a third world country, you know, yes, from a middle-class family, but still to a very poor society. And so for me, yes, that, you know, that was an incredible drive, you know. You still go back home and those wealth disparities between the haves and have nots are brutal. And so you definitely don't want to be caught in the haves not part. You want to be caught in the other group of people. So, yes, that was definitely a big, big drive for me for sure. Jack: Yes, absolutely, yes, same here. I mean, but a different way. Here, it's more like I could, anytime I could have left and go to Germany, first-class country, Mercedes Benz, would've gotten a good job with a BMW as a business car and expense budget and staying in nice hotels and all those kind of stuff. But the overall I mean, there's something really amazing about the US and I keep saying and it's not like blind nationalism. It's just for business and for success and for comfort, and for just that particular business. It's just an amazing country. It's like so once we started setting our eyes on that, it's like, it's so easy to do this. And definitely helps to be an immigrant, I don't know if the hardship helps if you use them, right. Michelle: Yes. Jack: So we use them as fuel. We used them as a reason why we needed to succeed because we did not want to live a life like I was travelling 100%. I mean, sounds glamorous, like I was jumping the plane on Monday morning going somewhere. But I was staying in Holiday Inn Express where ants were crawling up the walls. And in some cases, and usually, in small towns, where there are five restaurants, three of them are fast foods and I was like working in some companies up till midnight and I didn't enjoy it. So I use those things as fuel to say okay, I really got to do something extra in order to succeed. Now, having said that, being an immigrant here, which as you can probably confirm, is you start, you see way more opportunity that the non-immigrant see. Because it's not normal to you, what you see around you is all new. So as it's new, you look at it from a different angle and you see the holes in it, based on compared to what you see in other places in the world. And it's like well, and any kind of opportunity that ever existed is really masking itself as a problem. So you see, like anything that created like glasses, have been created because people don't see up with eyesight anymore. The problem is the eyesight gives is the solution. So anything even multifamily is the solution to a problem. You take a problem, you take a problem property that's been run down and you make it into the prettiest property in the neighbourhood. You provide a solution for people who want to save, solid, good well-working place, affordable place to live you can make something out of that. And it's true for everything and as an immigrant, I have a feeling you see that much more than then if you're born and raised here and it's everything is just normal. James: Yes, yes. Hey, I had a friend from the UK and he left the UK came to the US and he kept on telling me this. I don't know whether the UK or entire Europe, right, I mean it's a well to do country, it's a rich country but there's no easy part to break out from your circle.You can't break out as a breakout and go to the next level, you’re always within that, you're probably working, you're earning, you're learning, you are living an average life like everybody else, but you can't break out to the next level. So I'm not sure how is that in Germany, but in the US. Jack: Plus Germans, they don't move a lot. So you're on top of it, almost like down by your social circles, that like there's a party, a thing and a friendship. So if you start breaking out, you become you're almost alienating the people around you. Michelle: An anomaly. Jack: An anomaly. James: Okay. Jack: And if you don't have the stamina to keep that off and build a new circle of friendships or so, then you're going to be pulled back down. And that's another benefit as an immigrant, it's like, hey, it's like you didn't burn the boat but you cut the ties. It's a brand new world, it's a brand new opportunity, you associate yourself and make friends with those people that you want to make friends with. And it's just a, it's almost, it's a brand new world. It's a different thing. James: Got it. Michelle: I think especially in Jack's case, you know, resonates with that because he comes from a very small town in Germany. And he's like, there are some people that even though I didn't want to socialize, I had to because it was such a small town. James: Yes, that's true. Jack: Once when I was younger I was in college, I went to study in Spain for half a year. I came back went to my favourite bar and they just asked me, hey you looked tan, what do you want to drink? So nothing changed in like eight months or so. And not a single thing had changed, the same people were sitting at the same desk, tables, in the same bar, drinking the same drink. And 20 years later, still is nothing has changed. It's still, you know, look older and unhealthier but other than that it's the same thing. James: Yes. That's maybe that's why the index happiness index is much higher in some European country. People are just happy with the way they are, right? Jack: Yes, and there's no judgment in that. Michelle: Yes. James: Why do you want to rush? Why do you want to rush? Why do you want to get rich just leave as it is, right so? Jack: Yes, there's nothing set to be there but if you have ambitions if you enjoy growth, like a bit like we enjoy personal growth. We're really on a personal growth journey, it comes with challenges, it comes with new hurdles, it comes with expansion and so it wouldn't be my work. Michelle: And those challenges, you know, are our part, we know are part of the journey. And you think that the goal is you know, a worth goal, but it's really, the goal is a being on a constant process of becoming, an expansion kinda like what Jack said. Jack: And the wealth comes as a side benefit of that. James: Got it. Got it. So let's go to your businesses. So you guys, you had your green card, you came here. You worked for how many years did you work on a corporate life? Jack: Five and a half. Michelle: Five and a half. James: Five and a half, so what happened after five and a half? When did you start your land flipping thing? Jack: Well, the land business, we started about three years in or two years in we realized this is not what we want to do with this job thing. So we started dabbling with real estate. And we really didn't find success until about four years into it, until the end of 2002. So -- James: Hold on, on the two years that you realize that your work is not the thing that you all wanting to do, right? Jack: Right. James: What was that ah-ha moment, say that? Jack: The ah-ha moment was actually, for me was the first particular day that the company of 7000 people, let go a 1000 people in one day. Michelle: Right after September 11. Jack: And the economy did a massive shift downwards, the software company that had grown from 500 people when I joined them to 7000 people, three years later to two or three years later, we're starting to go back down from 7000 to 4000 people. And they did that in one year. As a matter of fact, it was within three days, during that one year. James: Wow. Jack: So one day 1000, another day 1000, another day 1000. These cuts were like for a few months apart from each other. But the first time that happened was when they literally, left and right when they when we were at the customer side, there was a software company. But I don't know anything about software and just wasn't a business, account department. They, business analyst, we were so worried about the customer side, that the phone would ring and our network was shut down. Usually, connect the internet to our corporate networks to get to files and stuff, all of a sudden, nobody could get into the network. It's like, oh, you get it, you get it. Michelle: You know what's happening, right? Jack: We started calling people in other offices, what's going on, you get in, no, nobody could get in. It's like oh, our network is down. Next thing you know, few of them, was over the phone rings, the guy picks up and all the colour leaves his face. And three minutes later, he picks up, he grabs his stuff and says, hey guys, nice meeting you. I was just fired. And he basically picks up his stuff and leaves. And that's it. And I was like, what you mean that's it? Like, again, Germany, if somebody fires you, they have to give you three months, -- Michelle: Three months. Jack: Three months notice. James: I thought it was 12 months notice. Michelle: Yes, so then you can actually train your replacement. Jack: Train your replacement and so on and or least have to pay for three months, some company say go home, but they have to pay for three months. Here, you're off and they gave him I think of four weeks severance if they signed something that they wouldn't sue the company. So and then during the course of the day, a whole bunch of people that I knew were let go. And I was sweating bullets, obviously, you know, we both were sweating bullets, because obviously, we work -- Michelle: And at that point, I had joined actually Jack's immigration, you know, files and paperwork because we figured, okay, there are very few people trying to emigrate from Germany. And there's so many more coming from south of the border, that stuck on Jack's application. And so we were both, you know, on his paperwork. Jack: So if I would have lost that job, we would have 60 days to find another job or leave the country. So at that moment, we realized, okay, this is, we're so breaking replaceable here, we're just a number in this big wheel of 7000 people. And after the day only 6000 people were like, okay, we got it, we got to do something else. We don't like it. After five and a half in an industry, you're almost like pigeonholed in that industry. I didn't want to stay for the rest of my career in that industry. So we wanted to get out. And we didn't know how to do that we just looked around. And after a few months or weeks of looking, we came across real estate, tried all kinds of different things, but couldn't get anything to work until we came across land flip. Michelle: And I think the land flipping thing was even, like falling forward. Jack: Yes, like pure coincidences, just like -- Michelle: We're looking into taxing and taxing you know, taxing investing. And I had gone up to somewhere in Northern California to a taxing option and stumbled upon, you know, a piece of land, a lady that owned a piece of land and we auction it off. And we're like, oh my gosh, you know, how could we do something like this? But instead of waiting until an auction happens, you know, how can we get to people much, much sooner. And because if she's a, you know, an owner of vacant land and wanted out, there must be other people. Jack: So we started sending direct mail to owners of real estate who have back taxes. And only people that own land, call us back. And -- James: You know what, that is exactly happened to me. I was trying to look for houses and all the people with land call me back. I said I don't want land, I want houses. Jack: There you go, you just missed out on a big opportunity right there. James: Yes, I should have known you guys. Jack: And then one guy had a property, it was worth about $8,000. But he hadn't done it, what's called a percolation test to make sure to put a septic tank in there, to see how the water, how fast the water sinks in the ground and it hasn't passed the septic test. So to him, it was worthless and he was leaving the state and he was wanting to leave. And he's like you guys can have that thing. And it's like, well, how about $400, he's like take it. So we got this thing for $400. And we sold it literally the next day to the neighbor across the street for $4000. James: Wow. Jack: And that became the beginning -- Michelle: And that's because our negotiation skills sucked. We were, the neighbor shows up Jack: And they just offered 4000 and we said, yes. Michelle: We were ecstatic, you know. Jack: Instead of like negotiating, we're just like -- James: You were like 10 times more, that's it, done, right? Jack: Right. And then the next deal was 10,000, the next deal, babe then we got to deal with like 21 properties for $30,000 that we sold for over $100,000. And then all of a sudden things started working. And then we also realize that most people that want to get rid of these properties don't actually even own property taxes. So now we go after all the general land and we generated millions of dollars, and we started doing this part-time then. Then Michelle quit her job because she was on the visa, started this full time. And then in March of 2003, I got, we got the green card. And then a few months later we felt comfortable. Michelle: I retire again. Jack: Retire, exactly. James: So my wife styles me. Jack: Then so in October of 2003, we quit our job, but it just we stumbled into that, bonded, built it up. And then for several years, we put the blinders on and all we did was land flipping. We only put our head up when the market crashed and everyone around us was losing money and we're still making lots of money. And then that's when we started buying single families and then later apartments. Michelle: Because we could buy houses here for forty, fifty thousand dollars, you know, with five grand in repairs and rent them for anywhere between $900 to $1100. James: Yes. Michelle: So you know, it made sense. And we had all the cash profits, you know, from the land business, because that land business actually, we're able to grow it very rapidly to almost an eight-figure business. You know, the first year we did about 60 deals, the second year, we did about 120 deals, 130. Jack: The third deal, 3800 deals. Michelle: Because we use them, we figured out a way to flush a lot of these properties. And by using auctions. So we used to have big live auctions, you know, we advertise on TV, radio, billboards, periodicals, online flyers. And get like 600 people to a room here in the Phoenix Convention Center, and sell them in one day 250, 200 to 250 parcels. And so we were quickly able to scale that and -- Jack: Build a bigger operation then, with like 40 full-time people. At the auction days, we had 120 people work for us, it was a big operation and we built them. And then we use those profits to then get into the forever cash market meaning buy, put asset allocation, as I call it, take the money we made and roll it over into something that brings cash flow for the rest of our lives. Now we have like 50, completely free and clear rental properties, which now have quadrupled in value. And we still own. James: That's awesome. Awesome. It's very interesting on how you stumble upon doing yellow letters. So that's how, I mean, I was looking for houses. And I believe I look at tax lien lease, if I'm not mistaken, people who didn't pay tax because most of the people who have an empty land, they don't want to pay the tax, right? Jack: Right. James: Because I think there's no cash flow, there's nothing coming. So Jack: Exactly. James: So many calls coming back, I was surprised at the number of response, people calling, but was calling all for empty land. And I say, I'm not going to buy that. So but looks like you guys monetize that I, I should have known that. Michelle: And you know, and even there, it's like in our countries, there's no way that you're going to lose your property over for taxes. But here in the US, you do, you know, the tax lien foreclosure method or through the tax [inaudible 0:25:16]. So those are opportunities that perhaps we were able to really, you know, hold on to because neither of our country's -- Jack: We would like, it blows away that people would even let these properties go for taxes, it was a perfect opening for us. And yes, so we monetize it in two ways. We learn, we wholesale them, we wholesale them. And we still do that, we just sold one week, actually two last week and, I don't know, every week there are sales. And we wholesale them, basically we buy something for $2,000 and go sell it for 10, that's not a bad profit, right? James: Absolutely. Jack: You can live off that. And plus, they're very affordable these properties. Or what we also do is we sell a seller financing. So a couple of months ago, there was one particular deal I want to highlight, is we bought the property for $5,000, an empty lot here in the city of Phoenix. And we sold it for $64,000 with a $6,500 down payment. So if you do the math, we paid five for them, and we got 6,500. So we got all ready -- Michelle: Our money is back. Jack: The moment we sell the property, our money is back. And now for the next 20 years, we get $500 a month and we'll make over $112,000 total on a property that we have zero money in, the moment we sold it. James: That's awesome. That's awesome. So let's walk through the land, the best land flipping strategy. Right? Jack: Okay. James: Because you guys have done it many times, right? So first is where do you get the list of landowners? What the, where's the best place to find? Michelle: So there are three possible places, we are still in love with a more difficult one. Because the harder it is for me, the harder it is for everyone else. James: Correct. Michelle: So there are places like Rebel gateway or Agent Pro, where you can get lists. And I think these two -- Jack: Lists services. Michelle: List services that basically, Jack: Online lists services, James: Lists source, right? Is it list source or -- Jack: List source or logic or agent pro 24/7.com. There's a whole host of different websites. James: What kind of list should we look for? Jack: We're looking for land lists, ones with value James: Other criteria, right? Jack: Yes, land, the other criteria is that the land value is below $100,000. Typically, because we found that to be our sweet spot, now you can go up above, but then your response rates are going to drop. [inaudible27:41] the pay for these properties just skyrockets and so on. But you can do those deals like we have a student the other day that made $192,000 flipping a deal that he put on the contract for much more than we usually put the properties under contract for. It went for 80 and he sold then for, what is that, close to 270 or something or 300. And then he made his offer to closing costs 192,000. But usually beyond that, we like out of state owners, but they don't have to be out of state. So there's a couple of other criteria. Then once you get that list, -- Michelle: You send them you know, you send them a letter and you can either you know printing stuff and stamped and lick all your envelopes and your letters. Or you can send it through a mailing house if you want to outsource that and send out letters and just hold on to your seat because you're going to get -- James: You're gonna get a lot of calls. Michelle: A lot of calls. Jack: Right, you're going to get a lot of calls, exactly. We did, for example, yes, when you send out these letters also, so we don't use the yellow letter, we've developed our own letter and split tested that hundreds of times until we got it to a point where we could not improve the performance of it anymore. And so our letter sometimes, there are a few counties where you get lower response rates, but usually, you get at least a four or five, six percent response rate. And it can go as high as 15 to 20%. James: So let's say now someone calling you, say I will land to sell, can you buy from me? What are the things you look for, to see whether you want to take down their number and follow up with them? Jack: First thing is motivation. Michelle: Yes. Jack: Because almost any kind of land sells, it's just if you get it cheap enough. Now, having said that, there are certain areas, certain pockets that we don't buy. I mean, there are areas in Arizona, where its land, an acre of land is worth $500, that's not worth pursuing. So the value needs to be there. So we typically don't just go below $100,000. We also start above 10,000. So that we have, -- Michelle: So you don't get crap. Jack: So you don't get crap. Michelle: Yes. Jack: So good language here. So you gotta get you together, you don't get junk land. James: Thanks for being nice. Jack: Yes, we have that ongoing, she's the foul mouth in the family. Michelle: Hey, you throw me under the bus. Jack: So then you, yes, you sent out these letters, I thin I forget the question. James: The question is, once they call, what are the criteria -- Jack: You asked them a few questions, you go through a list of questions that we created the script for and asked like if there's early access, if there is utility to the properties, and none of those things is a deal-breaker, they just determine how much you ultimately going to offer for property. James: Got it. And how do you determine what you gonna offer? Jack: Comparables, you run for market comparables similar to houses plus there are a few extra ways, like for example, particularly in rural areas, there might not be comparables of the same size. So if you're looking at five acre parcel, and you only have like 10 and 20 acre parcels, and there's no other five acres to sold or listed, you gotta adjust for size sometimes. So basically, a 10-acre parcel is listed or sold for $30,000. Well, five acres, not automatically worth 15, it's more worth a little bit more, because in rural areas, the smaller the parcel, the higher the price per acre. Michelle: Yes. Jack: So you get down, it's like the other way around, the bigger you go, the more kind of volume discount you get on the acreage. So going from 20 to 40 is not a doubling, it's more like a one and a half times in value. James: Got it. Jack: So 20 is, so the value over 20 years because of comparable shows you that's $40,000 and an 80 is not a 20 to 40 or 40-acre parcel is not $80,000. It's more like $60,000. So there's kind of you can adjust for those things. But the nice part is we buy our properties for five to 25 cents on the dollar. So that's the key to this entire thing. Because when you buy at 10, 15, 20 cents on the dollar, you can be off in your analysis and still make money. And you can make money by selling the reseller of financing and getting a down payment that pays for the property. And you have so much margin of error and so much offer in there that it's almost impossible and I'm not saying it is but it's almost impossible to screw up. James: Yes, yes. And what tool do you use to find those comparables? Jack: We use, we go on Zillow, we go on Redfin, we go on realtor.com, we go on landwatch.com, the same free websites, because I ideally go on the MLS, but the MLS only has, doesn't have all the land is allowed land it sells like owner to owner. And also even if you have access to the MLS, we do deals from Hawaii to Florida. Our students do deals out of the country, you usually only have access to the MLS in one little pocket. So it's impossible to almost have access to the MLS all over the country. Michelle: And it's relatively easy to do the comparable analysis we develop, like our own proprietary software that basically connects through you know, to Zillow, Redfin and all these services. So when I'm at a record, you know, and I'm looking at it immediately it populates for me, you know, whatever comparables. And if it's a little bit, you know, more, if it takes a little bit longer for me to do that, it's maybe eight to 10 minutes, you know, to look up a record elsewhere, specifically, like if it's an info lot, and it's completely built out, you kind of have to like back into the value of the land by figuring out, you know, what are the average, you know, prices in homes in this area? What is the average square foot? How much would it take a builder to, you know, building your house and, and kind of that way back into the value by -- Jack: So we build five methods to the value of the thing, not less, not the least is actually assessed value, any counties the assessed value as a relationship to the market value. And if you can prove over the first 10, 20 analysis that you do that this relationship is reliable, and you can just use the assessed value too for evaluation. Michelle: In a particular county. Yes. James: So you have to pay property tax on all this land, right? Do you try to flip it within the year so that you don't pay property taxes? Jack: As a matter of fact, the way most of our students are doing this is that they don't actually ever buy the property. What they do is that they put the property on a contract and then go market the property right away, and then either do an assignment or do it what's called a double closing, where they use the same day transaction where they buy it and sell it both in the same day. And the buyer brings up all the funds that pays everyone. So -- James: That's a wholesaling technique, right? Jack: It's a wholesaling technique, James: Yes, like in houses, that's what -- Jack: Exactly it's same, the same technique just that we use land for it. And the nice part about land is there's no tenants, no toilets, no termites, there's no repairs. There's no you don't have to show anyone the property. Michelle: James and in the competition -- Jack: Is almost none. James: That's why so many people call me. Jack: Somebody on this podcast just told us that he walked away from owning land because he didn't know -- James: I know. You know, I was thinking that time why are these people selling all their land. I mean, there must be some business here. But I was so busy looking at houses, right. And I thought… Jack: Right and that's the normal thing. So there's almost no competition. And for the last 12 years, we have done this entirely, virtually we have not looked at a single piece of land ourselves. James: Yes. Jack: Google Maps, Google Earth, you can see it all, you don't, Google Street View, you can just drive by your lot, take pictures. And it's all there, no reason to get dirty and dusty out there. Michelle: And that's another thing that I think I want to add in terms of like how simple it is. And now that we've like perfected our system, how predictable it is, you know, is that when we started looking into real estate, because we're both not from here, we had no clue completely clueless about construction, about estimating repairs for kitchen or bathrooms, for flooring, for roofing, we had no idea. And you don't have to deal with any contractors, any, you don't have to deal with any of those headaches that usually you have to deal with improve property when you're dealing with land. So that's something else we forgot to mention. Jack: And that's actually why we also, the main reason why we didn't jump from that multifamily right away, but we took the bridge of single families because we first needed to learn the details of how much does it cost to rehab a kitchen and the bathroom, and the flooring and windows and things like that. We didn't want to tackle a $10 million project first. We wanted to go, start small, so we bought some rental houses with their own money so if we make mistakes, it costs us money and not our investors. And little by little we then learned and after realizing that we can manage those also remotely because our houses are in three different markets; Phoenix, Cleveland, Omaha and an even though new houses in Cleveland, I just hold a show last week. I may have a few houses that I couldn't even find anymore because I haven't, the last time I saw them was like eight years ago, and they spit out cash flow every month. The property management companies who charge them, everything is good. So after that experience was like we're ready for a step up and now buy the bigger buildings and manage them. And we can also do that remotely. James: Okay, that's awesome. So I'm thinking why did I miss this opportunity, right? And I think the answer to my question was, I do not know who to sell to. So how did y'all solve the problem? How do you go to market, okay, today you get land, how do you go and find the seller? Jack: So initially, we started with eBay and newspapers and then we figured out this big land auctions. But the big land auction stopped working about 2007, 2008. Michelle: And started doing online auctions. Jack: And then we started doing online auctions, we shifted, started everything online. So since about 2008, the middle of 2008 now, we have been pursuing and we have been selling all our land online through websites like Craigslist, through Zillow, through MLS. If you own the property, if you have a paragraph in it, it's just that you're allowed to market it. You can even a property if you own it, it's easy to sell it on the MLS anyway, if you don't own it, you can have a paragraph in your contract which we have, that allows you to market this then you can put it off to the brokerlessMLS.com for $99 goes on the MLS. Again, but in other, this land specific websites like land watch, landfliprealtor.com again, land of America and the biggest one that is right now driving the most traffic for us and everyone else is the Facebook marketplace. James: So they are people looking to buy land from people? Jack: Oh, lots of people like -- Michelle: Facebook marketplace and Facebook groups land, land groups. Jack: Yes, Facebook land groups. Yes, there's a big market. I mean, we focus on three kinds of land. Number one [inaudible 0:38:34] lots, can sell immediately to a builder. Number two, the lots in the outskirts of town, right, if this is the city right on the outskirts of the city, that's where we still buy land because it's in the path of growth. Cities like San Antonio, cities like Austin, cities like Dallas, cities like Phoenix, cities like LA, like Denver, all over the country, they're growing, their growing infill. They're there. They're growing in the outskirts of town we're there and there are two ways and the third way is we're focusing on larger acreage in the more rural areas. And that is for the multi-billion dollar market off RV, ATV's, hunters, campers, how would you love to have a 40-acre ranch out into the hills of East Texas, right? Wouldn't that be beautiful? James: Yes. Absolutely, Jack: Yes. And there's millions of people that are looking for that. And then we put the one on top because we get so cheap. If you offer those properties with seller financing, they sell very quickly. Michelle: Or a discount -- Jack: Or discount or market value, wholesale, there is price, will advertise it's a good property, it sells very quickly. And for example, one of our students just posted something that they put, they put an ad on the Facebook marketplace and within 24 hours that has 4250 people look at it and comment and message them. And obviously, they had to take the ad down and had multiple offers on the ads in one day. Now that's not necessarily typical, it might take a few weeks for the property to sell. But there are buyers with it's a b2c market right, we're the business to the consumer market. And the end consumer buys a lot of these lots and the [inaudible40:18] lots are B2B to the builders. Michelle: Yes. James: And how do you check the entitlement of the land? What is it zoned and all that? Jack: There's another company, Michelle: Yes, so you go through a title company, make sure titles free and clear. Jack: There are title companies that we use are not the same companies, different department that we use when buying a $10 million apartment complex than when we buy for it for a $30,000 piece of land. Obviously, the cost is different because they charge us a minimum cost, which is usually anywhere between $700 and $1200 a deal. But if you're about to make $50,000 on there, you can pay $800 and then make 14,200, still okay. James: What about land, which has a utility or going to get utilities, is that much higher price than? Jack: Usually it is and usually it's already, Michelle you can. Michelle: Go ahead. Jack: Usually, it's already in the assessed value included, occasionally it's not because the assessors like a year or two behind. But it's definitely already when you run your comparables, it's already in the market because that word is out and then other properties in the market are going to be listed higher, which tells you, okay, or listed or sold higher, which shows you the market value is higher. So your offer is going to be higher and the seller is going to be happy to accept it. And you make more money in the process. Michelle: And it's much more attractive to buyers too. Jack: And it sells quicker. Yes. James: Yes. So I can see people like me doing this, right, because I already have done the yellow letter marketing, I know all the languages and you know all that. But so anybody can do that, right? It's a simple business, which makes a lot of money. And you are basically bridging the gap between people who need the land versus marketing to their direct seller who is in a distressed situation or who just want to get out from. Most of the time they inherited the land, they don't want to pay tax and they just get rid of it. Jack: Looks like you talk to a few of them. James: I did, talk to a few of them. A lot of them said hey, you know, my mom gave me and she died and now I have to pay property tax on it. And can you buy it or not? Jack: Exactly right. Michelle: So you're helping them and then you're helping your buyers too. And I think the how quickly you sell the property has a lot to do with how you market the property, how what kind of listing you create, you know. There's a lot of crap where you just show a piece of dirt and no, you need to dream it, you know, you have a catchy headline. I mean, you have to understand a little bit of marketing and copy and grabbing people's attention and so on and so forth. But nothing that you can't learn. James: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And what do you think? I mean, you have a property software on it, right? What problem does it solve? Michelle: So what that does is, so back in the day, when we were starting, and we were doing in just a few deals, you know, we could manage to keep our stuff, you know, on paper, on an Excel spreadsheet. But the moment we basically started really scaling this, you know, at the point that we started doing the auctions, we could no longer continue using Excel spreadsheets, we really needed you know, a CRM. And not just a CRM to keep track of our buyers and our sellers, but to keep us organized in our process flow. From the moment that the mailing went out to the inbound call being received to are we ready on the status where we've done research and ready to send an offer, has the offer come back, accept it and we sent this out to title escrow, is it back? Is it ready to be put into the catalogue for the auction, you know, for sale? And so it basically it's a process deal flow from beginning to end for land specifically. Jack: And we build the software in-house that guides you along step by step through the process of buying a property, keep them organized, like statistics, as tax, there is a built-in buyers website, seller's website, calculator for the numbers and things like that. James: So why do you need like, you know, like you said, you have like 15 staffs, right, you have the CRM, what function does the staff do? Jack: The staff does the work, I mean, the CRM organize to work for you, but somebody needs to put in the data. And somebody really needs to press the buttons and do the -- Michelle: And somebody needs to pick up the calls from the buyers. Like we have a lady that is just in charge of that as of this position, basically, there are other people making sure that the phone rings and she's just answering them. Jack: But having said that, this is us, right, we want to spend our time with our 11-year-old daughter travelling the world. We want to spend our time focusing on apartment complexes and not focusing but spending our time, we love learning right and looking at complex deals and things like that. So after building our land business to the level that wanted to build it, we started putting a team in place of it. Having said that, we have many students that run one of them, at the top of the head, I think of one of them is also a coaching organization. He is on track this year to do 120 deals alone with one assistant with one virtual assistant. So the thing is, because it's simple because you don't have to rehab anything, because if you don't have to do anything like that, he can do a, he can do 120 deals just as a two-man or a man and woman, kind of show. And so you don't need a big staff is a point, we have a staff of like somebody picks up the phone calls, answer them they, you can outsource everything. So we use a mailing and a call center to take the phone calls, we use a mailing house to send out the letters. So what we have inhouse is somebody does the deal analysis to figure out what the properties are worth, and somebody who team of two people that prepare the listings and go sell the properties. Anything else you don't really need, anything else you can do, you can outsource. Michelle: And documentation, unless you like to work with documents, paperwork. Jack: But all of that is electronic. Again, it comes in we have buyers signed by DocuSign. We have, we scan things, we put it on to Dropbox, we use different files. We attach them to our CRM and stuff. But it doesn't require a lot of people to do this, which makes it even more profitable. James: Yes, yes. I mean, I think you've sequence it very nicely so that you can scale gracefully and you can have your own time too, awesome. Jack: Probably the biggest thing I think that this business because there's no competition and as you said the sellers have people that are, there are people that inherited this property, they're not getting 25 letters a week, like the hospitals. They're getting nothing a week, so when your letter comes in and when you make that offer, we sent the offer by mail to them, we give them 10 days to actually accept the offer. Then when we buy it, we get a contract and we have three months or four months or six months, whichever we want to close on it. So it destresses the entire thing. That means we can design this business around our lives. And so the life designing with a life -- Michelle: Retrofitting it into the business, Jack: Yes, determining when we have free time. So it's truly a business that can be done based on everyone's work schedule and in full time can be designed such that you work with around the things that are important in your life. James: So does it still work now in this economic cycle? Jack: It's actually right now is the best market that we have seen in probably 15 years. Michelle: Yes. James: Why is that? Jack: Because the market is up so it means that buyers are, still buyers will, the sellers will always be there. James: Sellers always be there, yes. Jack: There's always going to be people that inherited the property and don't want it anymore. But the buyers are right out there, right now out there in the market. They're positive, they're upbeat, they want to buy these properties. They want to take them up, take their RV's up there. Michelle: Ride their RTV's. Jack: Ride their RTV's, spilled something on it so the properties are flying off the shelves, and probably the big right now our properties and our students' properties, we see the highest margins that we've probably seen since we teach this. James: Awesome, awesome. Michelle: We have people that are doing this that are you know, stay at home moms, single moms to Rob, who's a dentist, he no longer is a, well, he will always be a dentist, I guess. But he sold his practice because, you know, 10 months into the land flip he's like, I don't need to be behind the chair anymore. And now his wife who is also a dentist is looking to sell her practice as well, to people that are having a job still in parallel because they, you know, they are already 30 something years in it. And they're like they have just one more year for their pension. So they don't want to go back and are doing it in parallel. I mean, we have -- Jack: It's across the board. Michelle: It's across the broad, from all works of life. James: Yeah, I can see anybody doing this, right? It doesn't take a lot of time and effort, not like house flipping or even rentals or… Michelle: Yes, in the house flipping world, you get a call from a seller and he says I'm interested. I mean, you better meet him at the property, like within a few hours, because you're going to have two or three people that are chasing the same house. James: Yes, yes, yes. That's what happened to me. I missed out on the land flipping, I went house flipping, life has become so busy. So coming back to the next level commercial asset, not the next level. I mean, the other commercial asset class that you guys are doing, which is multifamily, right. And you said you're doing it so can you explain that to me why you're doing that? Jack: Yes, we're doing that for long term generational wealth. So in other words, right now we do syndicate deals. So we have some deals that we make very good money, but and we have our assets and our paid-off properties. But so we wanted to take the next step in complexity, the next step and leverage the next step in personal growth. So we -- Michelle: Exactly, I think our investing has really followed our own personal journey, you know, of development and growth. So Jack: Right, so one of the things, so we started buying these properties. And the first one, we realized, we syndicate it with our investors. And then the second one, the first few we syndicate investors. As a matter of fact, the first one we came in as a junior partner. So we raised the thing, the guy that couldn't raise all the money. And the moment he was about to lose this deal and he basically said, like, if you guys raise half of the money, you get half of the deal, which is obviously a great, great deal. I've never come across that. Michelle: And we're gonna learn how to do it, as he has been doing this for many years. I'm like, that sounds like a perfect situation. Jack: But we also needed to put in $80,000 in escrow deposit, which we could have lost. So it was, he asks for something and he gave something, was a great deal. So we came in, we ended up raising 60% of the money. And doesn't matter, we didn't get more than 50% of the deal. We got in we learned a ton and then we started doing this on our own. And the first few deals like there was just, we have a lot of income, but we have like your cash availability is not always $3 million, right? So we basically looked at it as like we needed $3 million. Let's put some money in ourselves and let's raise the rest through syndications. So we did a syndication for the last few deals. And at some point of time, we might transition into doing deals without investors, the reading hold on for the long term, 10, 20, 30 years, and then our daughter can potentially then inherit and she can keep them or sell them and upgrade them and so on. But in essence, it's a way to, what attracted us to it over the single families is that there's another layer of management, another layer of separation between us and the actual issues on the problem. Michelle: Yes, because now all of a sudden, you know, when you're looking at 100 doors at a time, and that scale allows you to have you know, on the ground, a full time, you know, leasing person, a full-time person for repairs or maintenance. Another one that is turning units around, you know, we have the regional director with, you know, with the property management. And so for us, it's really a lot of asset management, but not the everyday thing of like, would you approve, you know, the repair on a toilet or on this, small things-- Jack: Which, today, I got two more in our single families because they have an authorization limit of $500 on me there because I don't trust them with more. So on a single family, so everything over $500 goes to me, which is literally something three or four things a week that happen especially in summer when it's hot, and AC breaks and so on, that are just like driving me crazy. Because every single time it's like they don't give you the information you need. They don't give you the details you need, you have to jump on the phone call, you have to email back a few times. They don't follow the instructions and how to submit it versus when you operate on a larger property, you can distance, you're removed from these things. You get a status report, you can dive in with your expert partner on the deal, I mean, the regional manager into it. And more than anything, the other thing we realized is you very well know, you can force appreciation and you can force value increase rent, which on the single-family house, you can just, you just cannot do. Michelle: Yes. And elevation is not based on the income but it's fixed but based on other properties. James: Yes, yes I always say that you can build a house, painted with gold, on real gold but the value is still going to be following the other houses surrounding it. Jack: Exactly. James: Are you guys using the depreciation from multifamily to offset the active income on your land? Jack: Yes. Of course, yes. Big time. I mean we -- Jame: That's double right. Jack: We have done on all the units we have, we have done the cost segregation study, and it is literally. Michelle: It shows a lot of the profits from the land flipping even from the educational business, you know, it's a very purpose-driven business for [inaudible 0:54:03] and it throws a nice chunk of cash. And I'm like, we need to, you know, protect that. And so we're, it feels like, you know, with apartment investing, we get to have the cake and eat it too, in terms of, you know, getting the cash flow in. Jack: We get cash flow, we get income, any cash flow, we get appreciation and we get the tax benefits that wipes out almost the entire income of the other things that we do. So it's a it's like a dream come true. Yes. James: Yes. So you want to consider real estate professional, not because of the land, but because of that single-family homes? Jack: Because of really everything I mean, Michelle: That's all we do. James: If you do just land, are you considering real estate professional? Jack: Yes, the land is real estate. As a matter of fact, I always say that when somebody says I've never dealt with land, only do houses. I said like, it's actually I said, it is actually an incorrect statement. Because you have never bought a house -- James: Without the land? Jack: What you buy is the land and the house on it. James: Yes, correct. Jack: That's truly a land transaction that had a house on it. The legal description of the property is not the house, it doesn't say it's a four-bedroom, three bath house, no, you're buying this lot, lot number 23 with whatever it happens to be on it. And what is on it is a luxury house or a dump is just defines the value differences. But so with a real estate professional, doesn't have to be defined by analysis, or commercial, or you can be land too James: Got it, got it. So let's go to a bit more personal side of it. So no technicals? So why do you guys do what you do? Michelle: I think for me, you know, in the beginning, it was about us having freedom of money, time, you know, relationships. And right now, it's about freedom of purpose, you know. It has you kind of like, you know, when you're struggling, somebody is listening to this, they're struggling, or they have a job they hate or whatever, the very first thing that you look at is how can you take care of your immediate family? When you have that taken care of, then you start looking at, okay, how can I, you know, start, you know, helping them my church or helping in my community or helping on a much, much larger scale. So for me, you know, a lot of my, you know, what drives me right now, and my purpose and my why is to become a mentor and a leader. You know, for other women to start investing in real estate, to start, you know, having their money work for them, for example, and set an example, you know, I want to be a hero for my daughter. And I want her to also grow into a lady that you know, knows how to manage your finances, that is very comfortable with investments, whether small or large and so on. So, Jack: For me, along the similar lines, I remember the year 2007, when we were and we had accomplished our first major, big financial goal, which was a certain number, I feel everyone has their number and goal in mind. And we had just moved into a gorgeous, semi-custom home that we designed from scratch up and all of a sudden, we're like, you reach those goals, and you almost like fall into a hole. And we fall in that hole because you expect to be like all candy and rainbows and everything and unicorns, but actually the quite opposite of that. But it's like for a moment you celebrate and then you're like, what now, right? So we basically sat down and was like, okay, so we can sit down now and we can go retire in essence, we can go sit down, we can do nothing. But we realized, for example, there's a charity in Michelle's home country Honduras, that we said we could go work in charities, in charitable work. But we realized, we're really very good at getting businesses to a profitable stage, we're good at kind of creating money, Michelle: That's kind of like our genius. Jack: And so that we are not the person that's going to live in the Honduran in rain forest jungle and feeding the poor, so but it's close to our heart. So why don't we stick to what we love doing Michelle: Our strength. Jack: So that we generate the money that we can be more impactful in those kinds of things. And as a side thing, I love real estate, I mean, I don't see myself not doing real estate ever. I mean, I hate it the entire the IT industry. I'm not personally involved in the continuous development of our software, because I'm kind of scarred from that time in the IT industry. I get involved into the what the vision is of it, but, and then we have a great guy that drives the implementation of these things. But we focus on deals, we focus on and if I can focus deals for the rest of my life and opportunities then I'm a happy camper, it's just what I love doing. So and it throws off money and that allows us to help more people, that is awesome. Michelle: And be transformational in the way, you know, and the way we treat our investors and the way that you know, people that want to participate in our deals. Jack: So the teaching side of things, we started the teaching side of things also kind of like almost like a mission kind of the point of view that not that we need the rest to save the world. But there are so many people out there that do real estate either the wrong way or that they don't know that there's an easier and simpler way that you can do real estate. And learn and grow build the confidence and capability in your life that then allows you to do whatever the heck you want to do afterwards that we feel like I was called to teach this and show the land flipping part of things to people. So they can also get on their own feet. And we have had years where we lost money in that business where we put it on their own pocket for and it was still fulfilling because we see the difference that it makes in the people's life. So we were committed and our core values are to be transformational. Michelle: Yes. And it's not just walking a person through a deal by really sculpting someone's spirit you know, someone's confidence, someone's courage through the process of a real estate deal. So it's incredibly rewarding work for sure. James: Okay, okay. So why don't you tell about how to find you guys. How can the listeners find you? Jack: Easiest way to find us on the land flipping side is to go to landprofitgenerator.com and you can also go to www.orbitinvestments.com, there's a link over to the land flipping side. There's a couple of other links on too. James: Okay. Michelle: I'm on Facebook Michelle Bosch, Instagram michelleboschofficial. Jack: And again on the land site we since we don't teach the apartment complex things, you do that. We have no educational things about that, we just, we do syndicate with investors. We do probably similar deals and but on our website like all the educational things all about land flipping. So we have a Facebook group called Land Profit Generator Real Estate Group. So everything we do on the land side is called land profit generator. So you look for land profit generator, you find us and orbit investments is more like the overall holding company above everything else with links to all the different pieces that we do. James: Awesome. Well, Jack and Michelle, thanks for coming in. I learned so much and I learned what I didn't miss too, but I'm sure the listeners learned a lot of things from today's podcast. Thank you for coming in. Michelle: Thank you so much for having us, absolutely. Jack: Looking forward to seeing you at the next mastermind. James: Absolutely. Thank you Michelle: Thank you, bye.

Zach sits down with Michelle Gadsden-Williams, the managing director and North American inclusion & diversity lead at Accenture, to discuss her role at work and why inclusion is placed first in her job title. They also talk about her book, Climb, and how she sees organizations shifting in the next decade to be more inclusive to trans people.Read Michelle's full bio on AIT, and check out her book on Amazon! Connect with her on Twitter!Search open positions at Accenture.com!Check out Accenture's Inclusion and Diversity Index!Connect with Accenture on the following platforms: LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, Facebook, YouTubeTRANSCRIPTZach: What’s up, y’all? It’s Zach with Living Corporate, and I’m really excited to share something with y’all, okay? Now, I shared this last week, but just in case you missed it last week I’ma share it again. Living Corporate has partnered with Accenture to feature some of their most experienced North American black and brown managing directors and share their journeys, okay? My hope is you check out this and you peep the links in the show notes to learn more about each of them, including our next guest, Michelle Gadsden-Williams. Michelle Gadsden-Williams is the managing director [and] inclusion and diversity lead for North America at Accenture. Previously, she was the co-founder and chief operating officer of women’s empowerment initiatives and diverse entertainment investments, based in New York City. Michelle Gadsden-Williams has acquired a number of community service awards and accolades for her work as a diversity practitioner. More recently, she has been recognized as a 2015 Ebony Magazine Power 100 Honoree. Over the span of her career, Gadsden-Williams has been profiled in Black Enterprise Magazine, Diversity Inc., Diversity Executive, Ebony, Essence, Fortune, History Makers, Heart & Soul, Jet, New Vision—listen, y’all. Y’all get it, right? Okay, I’ma put the whole bio in the show notes. The point is Michelle has it going on. She’s killing it, okay? Beast. Straight up. [straight up sfx] And you know what? Also put one of those “owww”. [owww sfx] Like, this is crazy. I’m just so, so impressed. Her other notable tributes include being named the 2010 recipient of the Maya Way Award for Diversity Leadership by the incomparable Dr. Maya Angelou, receiving the 2008 recipient of the Harvard Black Men’s Forum Businesswoman of the Year Award, accepting the Rainbow Push Coalition’s Bridge Builder Award by the honorable Rev Jesse L. Jackson, and being recognized with an honorary Doctorate of Humane Letters Degree from Kean University for her outstanding personal and professional accomplishments in the field of diversity and inclusion. In 2013, Gadsden-Williams was appointed as a member of the Global Advisory Council on Gender Parity for the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. Y’all… do y’all understand—like, come on. Give me the air horns right here. [air horns sfx] Like, this is incredible. I am just impressed. I mean, look, man, I’m over here—we grindin’. Like, like, like… [what more do you want from me?] Look, with that being said, the next thing you’re gonna hear is my interview with Michelle Gadsden-Williams. Check it out.Zach: Michelle, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Michelle: I am doing very well. How are you?Zach: [applause sfx] Doing really well, really excited to have you on the show. For those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself?Michelle: Sure. My name is Michelle Gadsden-Williams, and I am the managing director and lead for inclusion and diversity in North America with Accenture and the author of the award-winning book "Climb."Zach: Come on, now. [both laugh] Now--I love it. I love it from the jump. We'll be talking about Climb--we're gonna get there a little bit later in this conversation. Let's talk a little bit about the first thing you said, about the fact that you're the North American lead for I&D. And your title is I&D and not D&I. Can we talk a little bit about why inclusion has been placed firstMichelle: And this is a phenomena that's been happening, I'd say, over the past few years, where a lot of organization and diversity practitioners are starting to think of this notion of diversity as being--being a standalone entity is no longer enough, that inclusion is extremely paramount as having a culture of inclusion. So diversity is the invitation to the party, and inclusion is being asked to dance, as we say. So in my view, I&D is an essential component of everything that Accenture does, and we aim to be the most inclusive organization in the world, and so we recognize that inclusion and diversity foster greater creativity and innovation. So that's one of the reasons why we've decided to reverse it and have big I and big D.Zach: I love it, I love it. You know, and it's interesting, because a piece from Take the Lead, where you were featured, starts like this. It says, quote, "When Michelle Gadsden-Williams started working in human resources in 1990, the mission in her field was called affirmative action." And, I mean, that's really interesting, right? 'Cause we talked a little bit before we started the show--we talked a little bit about your tenure, right, and the breadth and depth of your experience, and, you know--so you started in 1990. Despite it being almost 2020, there are still folks who believe I&D efforts are some version of affirmative action. So, like, how do you, as an executive leader, navigate the fears and frustrations of those who look at I&D as a zero-sum game?Michelle: Yeah, that's an interesting question, and I'm going to go back to a piece of research that Accenture conducted a short time ago. And one of the things that we've done, earlier this year, is to take a step back and think about, you know, what is this impact of I&D in the workplace, and so we conducted a survey of about 18,000 employees of companies around the world, and we asked two very important questions, one of which was "How inclusive is your culture?" The other was "How willing are you to innovate?" And so while diversity factors very much into--and has a significant impact on--the innovation mindset, a culture of equality is the multiplier, and that's what's really going to help companies maximize innovation. So when I started doing this work many years ago, and actually it was just before 1990--yes, it was called affirmative action, and the strategy was really more about "So how many individuals of difference do you have?" So it was basically a headcount exercise. It had nothing to do with culture. It had nothing to do with inclusion. It had nothing to do about what we're talking about today. So fast forward to current day. This notion of inclusion and diversity has evolved, and now many organizations are really starting to see the true power of what this work represents, that it's not just about counting heads. It's about making those heads count and ensuring that every single individual, regardless of their difference, has an opportunity to realize their potential, realize their ambition, have a seat at the table, and to reach their career aspiration, whatever that may be.Zach: That's a really powerful point, because--it's interesting. I've been having conversations with folks who talk about inclusion, and I've asked individuals and leaders of organizations, like, "Look, how do you actually define inclusion?" And people will say, "Well, making sure everybody feels included." And I was like, "Okay..." [both laugh]Michelle: Well, that's interesting.Zach: And I'm like, "Okay..." But what I think is paramount when we talk about inclusion is the fact that inclusion from my perspective--and this may sound--maybe I'm framing it radically, but there's some type of distribution of power, right, to individuals so that they actually have a true voice. Like, I don't--I don't see a voice at the table absent some level of authority or power. And so when you talk about, like, career development and making sure that they're growing and that folks are progressing and things of that nature, what I'm hearing is--and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, so help me, keep me honest--what I'm hearing is is that part of that inclusion definition also comes with some level of--if it's, like, promotion or positioning them, positioning folks, so their voice can actually be heard in ways that make sense, right? It's not just about, you know, nodding and smiling, but making sure that they're actually empowered.Michelle: That's exactly right. We all--like, we're all sitting around a table, that it's allowing individuals the place and the space to allow their perspective or their point of view to be voiced. So we all have a responsibility to ensure that that happens, whether or not people recognize that or not. I believe that's what true inclusion is all about, ensuring that people who have a seat at that table, they believe that they matter, that their perspectives and opinions and points of view--that they matter.Zach: No, I love that. I love that, and it's so--I really do believe--and I recognize your point in that where Accenture is in their journey, in their I&D journey, but I would challenge that--as I've had multiple conversations with other leaders, HR practitioners, other folks who ascribe themselves as I&D leaders or D&I leaders--that definition of inclusion, it always falls a little bit short to me. And maybe my bar is a little too high, but I'm like, "Okay, at what point are we actually empowering these folks who have been historically disenfranchised and under-represented in these spaces with actual power and, like, authority, so that they can actually, to your point, have the space and the breadth at the table to speak and actually actualize something?"Michelle: Exactly. And I think to your point, organizations are just simply not seeing inclusion as the right thing to do anymore. It just makes all the sense in the world, especially when you're talking about creating a culture of equity and empowerment where every voice counts and all of those kinds of things. This is the action that's behind all of that.Zach: Absolutely. And speaking of action, this year marks the 50th anniversary of Pride, and our workplaces are increasingly diverse, and in that diversity, trans individuals are working in the corporate space at larger numbers than ever before, along with black and brown professionals and, of course, intersect--we can't ignore the reality of intersectionality, that we have black and brown trans professionals also in the workplace. And so how do you see organizations shifting in the next decade to be more inclusive to trans individuals, particularly trans women of color?Michelle: I believe it all goes back to culture first and for organizations to look at building cultures where every single individual feels included and where they can bring their whole selves to work. Things like the Pride celebration--we had a week-long celebration here in New York, which was amazing, and I'm still recovering from all of the celebrations--Zach: Yeah! I had some friends out there.Michelle: Exactly. I just think that it's really about focusing on the individual, their needs and wants and desires, and a lot of us have very different lived experiences outside of the workplace, and a lot of societal burdens, we bring those things into the workplace unfortunately. And so when we talk about inclusion, when we talk about intersectionality and all of those things, none of this works unless the culture is such that it encourages and fosters an environment where authenticity, where being your true, authentic self in ways that invites others to be curious about your lived experience, all of this helps an individual to be a lot more innovative, productive. They will, by nature, feel included. I just think that all of this resonates, and all of this will ensure that, you know, individuals, they will feel truly valued for their differences and to be--and feel free to be exactly who they are, that they're not just there to check a box and that they're empowered to contribute in many ways. So I just think that the underpin of all of this is around culture. It's around innovation mindset. It's about the appreciation of the differences that we all bring to the table and the understanding and awareness that we all don't experience the world, our workplaces, in the same way, and that's what intersectionality is all about.Zach: 100%. You're spot on, Michelle. It's interesting, because what your point reminds me of--we just had a conversation with Tamara, the MD out of Austin--Michelle: Oh, Tamara Fields? Yes.Zach: That's right, Tamara Fields.Michelle: [?] a friend of mine, yes.Zach: Yes, and we were talking to Tamara about the reality of emotional labor. Like, there's a level of emotional labor involved in just existing as a non-white person in a majority-white space, right? So, you know, you see something in the news--like, because we were talking about seeing whatever atrocity you want to choose from--and not to sound flippant or dismissive, but if you're looking at the border crisis or you're looking at a police shooting or whatever the case may be, absorbing that type of content and then coming into a space that is uniquely alien to you can be exhausting. And to your whole point around, like, culture, what I'm reading--and I'm not saying you're saying this. What I read that as is that organizations will--organizational culture will change as the majority allows it to change, right? Meaning that if the majority of a space are adaptive to a particular culture, then the organization will shift, but if there is collective push-back against whatever the initiative may be, then things will slow down, right? And I think we see that, not just at a macro level--or at a micro level in our working perspective, but we also see it, like--we've seen it in the history of America, and so I think that really leads me to ask, like, when you think about--when you talk about culture and culture shifting, what advice or--what are things that you've seen executives do, organizational executives do, to facilitate cultural change for more inclusive workplaces?Michelle: Well, I think there are several things that leaders must do, the first of which is they have to make I&D, inclusion and diversity, a priority. There needs to be established diversity objectives and priorities, equal pay, advancement goals. Like, all of that needs to be established in order to shift the culture to the desired state. The second thing I would say is making leaders accountable, holding individuals' feet to the fire, and we have to track progress and really have some tangible consequences where if a leader does not--is not on board, then there needs to be some sort of--and maybe it's not a consequence. Maybe that is a strong word, but there needs to be some accountability in terms of ensuring that diversity and inclusion is priority #1 if we are to create the ideal culture that we're talking about here. I also think encouraging risk taking and ensuring that employees know that they have the freedom to experiment, to ideate, to innovate, and that's what helps us all learn and grow as professionals. So I just think all of these things will help us get to that ideal state and also create a culture--you talked about the freedom to fail. I think all of this helps in that regard.Zach: No, you're absolutely right, you're absolutely right. So, you know, earlier this season we had Chris Moreland. Chris Moreland is the chief inclusion officer at Vizient, and he was on the show. He talked a bit about covering and the actions that non-majority folks in the corporate space participate in to feel safe. I think the concept of covering--I know that you're fairly, if not deeply, familiar with it, as it's been--it's a fairly established concept. We see it in a lot of whitepapers from McKinsey to Deloitte. I believe Accenture's even talked about the concept of covering within the topic of D*I or I&D. What are some of the key covering activities you believe non-majority members commit in the workplace?Michelle: Let's see--okay, so say that again. So what are some of the--Zach: What are some of the key covering activities--what are some of the key ways that you see black and brown folks covering themselves in the workplace?Michelle: Oh. I would say things like not being active or involved in workplace activities like employee resource groups and things that can be perceived as polarizing. Sometimes people of color tend to opt out of things that might look or--at least from their perception--might look [like it's] nonsensical. So for example, I'm sure you're familiar with the employee resource groups or business resource groups depending upon which company you work for, and I've had individuals not engaged because they're like, "I don't need to be a part of that. I would much rather spend my time being part of the majority population." So that's a form of covering. I've worked with Hispanic colleagues who will change their name so that it's more Anglo-Saxon-sounding versus Latino-sounding. So for example, I worked with a gentleman named Juan Guzman, and he changed his name to John Guzman, because in his view it sounded less ethnic. That's a form of covering. So, you know, the list can go on and on, but I just think that when people cover--I don't think it serves anyone well. I don't believe in pretending. I don't believe in being something that you're not. You are who you are. Be proud of who you are. We are all individuals that have a gift and talent to bring to the table, regardless of what youre last name is, regardless of if you're wearing natural hair, regardless of if you are--if you have a thick accent and you're trying to get rid of that. I just think that the more in which these environments that we're working in are receptive and appreciative of the differences that we all bring, the better off we all are and the more productive we will be.Zach: No, absolutely. I love it, I love it. And it's interesting too because I think--so I was having a conversation with--I was having a conversation, just about some strategy pieces, with a colleague, and we were talking about "How do you determine, like, the members of your D&I space?" And the conversation was around "Well, we've got to make sure they actually go to events, right? They need to go to events." And I was like--and I was trying to explain to them. I said, "Look, I would not boot people out of a group, of an ERG or whatever you call it, right, in your respective organization--I would not boot them out of something because they don't physically attend an event." I said, "Some folks genuinely don't feel safe," right?Michelle: Right. That's true. And sometimes we just have to meet people where they are, right? Because everyone is not going to be on the I&D train, majority or not. So I just think sometimes you have to meet people where they are, explain to them what the benefits are of being part of these what I think are extremely beneficial infrastructures and organizations. It's support systems. It's infrastructures. It's, you know, an informal network of individuals who look like you, and you can talk about things that are unique and specific to your lived experience. So I think the more of which we can educate the non-majority members who don't feel safe being a part of these infrastructures--we just need to continue to work on them, but some people are not gonna get on board. I mean, at the end of the day, everyone is not going to be on the I&D train.Zach: No, 100%, and, like, I think the thing is--like, my point is I've been to some--so even when I worked at Accenture, right, like, there were happy hours and things, and the events--the events were great and people showed up and things like that, but I didn't always just--maybe I had a long day, maybe I felt like it was gonna be something else I was gonna have to kind of perform at. Maybe I was just nervous. Who knows whatever reason? That doesn't mean that I didn't want to be included in the group. It's just that that is not, at that point in time, something I felt like I had the emotional bandwidth to engage in. That doesn't mean that I might still not want to talk to somebody in that group or read whatever emails y'all send out. I just--it's different, and I think it's that--I think it's really considering that--especially when you have folks who are not black or brown or whatever that, you know, depending on that diversity dimension, overseeing the group. Like, sometimes there can just be some gaps because you just have genuine blind spots, right? And just understanding, like, "Hey, this is a different space," right? You know, this is not a technology implementation where you're coming to learn about the project or coming to learn about how this software, this SAP implementation, impacts your job. This is a space that's really meant to foster empathy, authenticity, and trust, and that's a different--to me a different level of measurement, right? And you can't just be so, you know, binary with it.Michelle: Yep, fully agree.Zach: [laughs] Okay, so let's do this. Now, you already kinda--you already kinda let a little bit of the dip on the chip, but can we talk about your book Climb? I'd love to hear about the inspiration behind it and why it should be something that professionals of color--and just really anybody, frankly--should have on their reading list.Michelle: Absolutely. So the inspiration behind the book was--I've always had the intention at some point in time in my career to write a book, and it wasn't until I was at Newark Airport in the United Airlines club lounge and a young woman walked up to me and she said, "Are you Michelle Gadsden-Williams?" And I said yes, and she said, "We used to work together many years ago at Novartis, and I've followed your career and all of the wonderful things that you've done. You know, have you ever thought about writing a book like Sheryl Sandberg or Carly Fiorina or Carla Harris at Morgan Stanley?" And I said, "Yes, but I just didn't have the time to do it." And she said, "You know, you should really make the time to do it, because you have an exceptional story to tell." So it wasn't until that young woman gave me that nugget, that idea to really take the time to do it, that's when I really thought seriously about putting pen to paper and telling my story. And so the act of climbing has been defined as the act of rising, to ascend, to go upward with gradual or continuous progress, and it's a term that I've used to describe my career over the years as a woman, as a woman of color, and as a diversity practitioner, and as you and I were talking about earlier, there's some individuals who have an easy go of it and can take the proverbial elevator up to the C-Suite, and then others not so much. They have to take the stairs with a backpack and no air conditioning. There's no smooth ride to the top for any of us, and so no matter how you ascend there is a journey that we each experience which, you know, ebbs and flows and it twists and turns, but with every step you get that much closer to achieving your highest aspiration, your North Star, whatever that might be. So my book Climb speaks volumes about my professional journey, and one of the things that I'm extremely passionate about--and this hasn't changed over the years--is helping people of color to maximize their full potential in corporate America, no matter where they are, no matter what profession or industry they're in or wherever they're employed. I've used myself as the subject, the protagonist, to candidly describe my jorney, and that would be the good, the bad, the ugly, and everything else in-between. And what I wanted to do was to focus on tackling some of today's most pressing workplace issues that people of color typically run into, but more importantly I wanted to offer some pragmatic solutions. So that's why I decided to write the book. It's my version of "Lean In" through my lens, the lens of a woman of color.Zach: I love that. So you talked about some of the challenges--and again, I'm not asking you to give the sauce away for free, right, but when you talk about some of the most common challenges that you're seeing black and brown folks face in the workplace, like, can you give us an example of one of those challenges?Michelle: Oh, sure. You know, working twice--being twice as smart, twice as good, but getting half as far. You know, that's the old adage that most of us, at least those of us of color, we've heard that growing up in our households. You know, this is not, you know, just jargon that we hear on television. It's our lived reality. And so, you know, the bar is simply at a higher level for those of us of color, and most of us know that.[straight up sfx]Zach: No, you're absolutely right.Michelle: Exactly, and most people of color are over-mentored and under-sponsored.Zach: Hold on. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa. [record scratch sfx] Say that again.Michelle: Most people of color are over-mentored and under-sponsored.Zach: We gotta break that down. Unpack that.Michelle: We can have mentors all day long, people to show us the lay of the land and how to navigate and all of those things. We don't need that. We have a lot of that. We have plenty of that. We need individuals who are going to have a seat at the table, who are gonna be our advocates and champions and our, you know, sports agents sitting at that table, negotiating for us, putting our names up for promotion and for those stretch assignments where it counts. That's what we need.Zach: That is--that is so true. I've never heard it framed that way, but you're 100% right, because frankly I do believe--and in my work experience this has been the case, right? So this was the case when I was at Accenture. It was the case when I went to Capgemini as well and as I've progressed onto my current firm. There are black and brown folks around me--there are minorities around me who would show me how to do something, right, or give me the real from time to time. I was blessed with that, but what I didn't always have--and I had it more than others, to be clear. ['Cause] I have gotten promoted. Like, I've been able to progress in my career a few times, but the people fighting for me, right, the people who are really advocating for me in the same way or just even in a percentage of the way that they may advocate for someone who doesn't look like me who's doing half as much as I'm doing, right? And that's just a really good point. And it's so interesting, because when I talk to--when I talk to black and brown folks, particularly black women, the conversation often comes with a point of like, "Look, I'm working this hard, and I'm doing--I'm going above and beyond every day, and the response when I'm doing all this work is "Well, that's what you're supposed to do," but then if someone who doesn't look like me is doing, like, half of that--" To the point you talked about earlier, the old adage, which is based on history and reality. They do half of what I'm doing. They're getting their praises sung from the highest rafters, right?Michelle: Exactly. And so I think most of us who have been working in corporate spaces and places, we just understand that there's just more scrutiny on our performance, and a lot of this can lead to, you know, just lower performance, you know? Our self-esteem goes down. You know, lower ratings, lower wages, and sometimes job loss, because you're just not happy. So I just say all of this to say that yeah, the bar is simply at a different level for mostly women, but moreover [more] people of color.Zach: And you know what? So that last little point of distinction you made--and I promise I'm not trying to keep you forever, but it reminds me about the fact that you also--in the book you talk about intersectionality, and I feel like that point you just made just now was kind of an example of that. Could you unpack why you broke that out and you said "women," then you paused and you said, "Well, people of color."? Like, what was the--what caused that pause?Michelle: Well, that was just in my research for the book. Women and/or people of color, we do have similar challenges. Not quite the same, and this intersectionality that we're talking about--and this is such a topic that I have a lot of passion around, you know? I was just having a conversation with a majority female colleague of mine yesterday who just happens to be a peer, and she said to me, you know, "Michelle, we as women, we have the same challenges and we have the same barriers, don't you think?" And I had to pause for a second, and I looked at her--and I can't play poker, so I probably gave her, you know, a "Are you crazy?" kind of look. You know, as a woman and as a woman of color, my lived experience is vastly different than yours. So basically [what I said] to her is that, you know, "When I stand in my drive-way in Somerset County, New Jersey--that's not diverse at all and one of the most affluent counties in the state--but I'm standing in my drive-way and I'm holding my neighbor's child, who happens to be of the majority population, and the FedEx guy pulls up and wants to deliver a package to my home, that he automatically assumes that I'm the help and that she owns the house." You know, how often does that happen to you, colleague? How often is it when I walk into an elevator that the purse clutch scenario happens? And it happens to men of color too. So I could break it down for you in a lot of different ways, but, you know, my lived experience as a woman and as a woman of color, there's the double bind. So it's an interesting dichotomy, but it's real.Zach: [Flex bomb sfx] It is an interesting dichotomy, but it is real. Absolutely, and that's why I had to give you the Flex bomb, 'cause you're dropping straight facts. [both laugh] Okay. So look, this has been a great conversation. I'm honored and just very excited about the fact that you're here and that you joined us today. Before we go, any parting words or shout-outs?Michelle: Oh. This has been a terrific conversation, so I thank you for inviting me to be a guest on your podcast. Any parting words? You know, one of the things that my father would say to my two sisters and I growing up is, you know, "You are not here on this earth to take up space. You're here to make a difference, and it's up to you to determine what that difference is. All that I've given you is the tools, the education, and the rest is up to you." So all I will say to your listeners is you have to figure out what your passion is, what your purpose is, and determining how you plan to exert your power. You know, what are some of the kinds of things that give you fulfillment? You know, what feels natural to you? What qualities or attributes do you enjoy expressing to the world? And then just go for it. Anything is possible. Anything is. We just need sponsors, mentors, and others, other allies, who are gonna help us get to that next level. And if there's anyone out there who thinks that they can do it alone, I believe that they're sadly mistaken.Zach: And that's absolutely right, 'cause if you think--if you really think that in this space, as a black or brown person, that you're gonna navigate these historically-white spaces by yourself? Hey, I'm looking at you--Michelle: Exactly. I mean, we're working in institutions that weren't historically built for us.Zach: Absolutely.Michelle: We were not welcome, so therefore we have to be twice as good, twice as smart, Ivy League-educated or whatever the case is. We know that we need to do alllll the extras in order to get to where we want to be.Zach: No doubt. And I was just trying to say that if you really think you can do it by yourself, I'm looking at you like [haha sfx].Michelle: Exactly. Exactly.Zach: Well, Michelle, I just want to thank you again, you know? At some point in the episode we typically drop some Jamaican air horns, because--[Michelle laughs, Zach laughs] Out of thanks or out of exuberance, and I'm just gonna say I'm gonna drop these out of thankful exuberance right here... [air horns sfx] because this has been a dope, dope episode, and I look forward to having you back. Thank you so much.Michelle: Absolutely. I look forward to coming back and wishing you all of the success in the world.Zach: Thank you. Peace.Michelle: Peace.

asset title: Grammar Lesson 5: Disappearing Reflexive Verbs, Use of Coupons filename: tafalado_gra_05.mp3 track number: 31/46 time: 9:39 size: 6.79 MB bitrate: 96 kbps Here's a trick question for Spanish speakers: Would it be better in Portuguese to say the equivalent of 'Siéntate' or 'Siéntese'? Answer: Don't worry about the reflexive pronouns. Chances are that Brazilians won't use them either. In this lesson Valdo and Michelle help the rest of us to get a sense of the disappearing reflexive pronouns in Portuguese. Michelle also adds how cool she thinks the use of coupons is here in Texas as well.DialogPortugueseValdo: Você deitou tarde ontem?Michelle: Deitei bem tarde e levantei bem cedinho.Valdo: Por que? Senta aqui e me conta.Michelle: Eu lembrei que tinha um monte de cupons que vencia hoje... daí eu corri pra loja para usá-los.Valdo: Eu acho legal esse sistema de cupons daqui. Sempre aproveito os descontos e ganho várias coisas de graça.Michelle: Oh, desculpe, tenho que ir... esqueci que tenho mais dois cupons pra usar agora à tarde.SpanishValdo: ¿Te acostaste tarde ayer?Michelle: Me acosté muy tarde y me levanté muy temprano.Valdo: ¿Por qué? Siéntate aquí y cuéntame.Michelle: Me acordé que tenía un montón de cupones que se vencía hoy ... así corrí a las tiendas para usarlos.Valdo: Me gusta este sistema de cupones de aquí. Siempre aprovecho los descuentos y gano varias cosas gratis.Michelle: Oh, descúlpaame, tengo que irme ... se me olvidó que tengo dos cupones más que necesito usar esta tarde.EnglishValdo: Did you go to bed late yesterday?Michelle: I went to bed really late and I got up really early.Valdo: Why? Sit down hear and tell me about it.Michelle: I remembered that I had a whole bunch of coupons that were expiring today ... so I ran to the store to use them up.Valdo: I love this system of coupons that they have here. I always take advantage of the discounts and I get a lot of things for free.Michelle: Oh, I'm sorry, I've got to go ... I forgot that I have a couple of coupons that need to be used this afternoon.

asset title: Lesson 17: Pronunciation of 'j', 'ge', and 'gi', Wearing That Tiny Bikini filename: tafalado_17.mp3 track number: 18/46 time: 15:02 size: 5.29 MB bitrate: 48 kbps From a North American perspective, the Brazilians have very skimpy swimming suits. However, from Valdo and Michelle's perspective, North American swimsuits are 'gigantes', 'enormes.' In the end, as Michelle explains, 'não importo, vou continuar com o meu biquini do Brasil' (I don't care, I'm going to keep on using my Brazilian bikini). As to pronunciation, did Orlando really say that he wanted to name his daughter 'Janela' (window)? Good thing he didn't!DialogPortugueseMichelle: Gente! Veja aquele cara com aquela sunga laranja gigantesca e aquela mulher com aquele biquini bege enorme!Valdo: Aquilo não é sunga de jeito nenhum. Imagina... aquilo lá é uma bermuda.Michelle: Você já reparou que aqui geralmente o tamanho das roupas é bem maior que lá no Brasil?Valdo: Lógico... principalmente nesses meses de junho e julho que as pessoas vão pra piscina, tomam uma cerveja gelada e observam umas às outras em trajes de banho.Michelle: Eh, mas isso é uma coisa mais generalizada, porque as roupas em geral, inclusive as íntimas, são gigantes aqui. Mas não me importo... vou continuar com o meu biquini do Brasil.Valdo: Então tá jóia! Michelle, dê uma giradinha aí pra todo mundo ver e eu também vou desfilar com a minha sunga.SpanishMichelle: Mira, ve aquel hombre con el traje de baño anaranjado gigante y aquella mujer en el bikini beige enorme.Valdo: Aquello no es un traje de baño para nada. Imagínate, eso es una bermuda.Michelle: ¿Ya ves que aquí generalmente el tamaño de la ropa es mucho más grande que en Brasil?Valdo: Lógico... principalmente durante los meses de junio y julio cuando la gente va a la piscina, toman una cerveza helada y se miran en trajes de baño.Michelle: Sí, pero eso es una cosa generalizada, porque las ropas en general, inclusive la ropa íntima, son gigantes aquí. Pero no me importa, voy a continuar con mi bikini de Brasil.Valdo: Entonces está bien. Michelle, modélame para poder verte y yo también modelo el traje de baño mío.EnglishMichelle: Oh my! Look at that guy with the gigantic orange swimsuit and that woman with the enormous beige bikini!Valdo: That's not a swimsuit, no way. Really... that thing there is Bermuda shorts.Michelle: Have you noticed that here generally the size of clothes is a lot bigger than in Brazil?Valdo: Right... especially during the months of June and July when people go to the pool, have a cold beer, and watch one another in their bathing suits.Michelle: Yes, but this generally applies to most things because most clothes, even underwear, are gigantic here. But I don't care, I going to keep on using my Brazilian bikini.Valdo: All right then! Michelle, turn around so that we can all see and I'll also show off my speedo.

asset title: Lesson 6: Pronunciation of Oral Diphthongs, Going to the Pharmacy filename: tafalado_06.mp3 track number: 7/46 time: 12:22 size: 8.70 MB bitrate: 96 kbps In this lesson Valdo and Michelle can't figure out why it is so difficult to get medicine from a pharmacy in the United States. This whole idea of going to a doctor first to get a prescription seems to complicate things a lot. It took them a while to get used to it, but it doesn't mean that they have to like it. As to pronunciation, today we look at diphthongs. It's a fancy word, to be sure, but it basically means that we are talking about Portuguese vowel sounds that come one right after another.DialogPortugueseMichelle: Oi Valdo, como vai?Valdo: Vou bem. Já está gastando dinheiro?Michelle: Só um pouquinho. O salário já é tão baixo, né? Eu precisava comprar uma caixa de anticoncepcional.Valdo: Mas eu soube que a lei aqui diz que a maioria dos remédios só com reita.Michelle: Meu pai do céu! Eu não tenho receita.Valdo: Então nada feito. Bom, se cuida. A gente se vê depois. Beijo, tchau!SpanishMichelle: Hola Valdo, ¿Cómo te va?Valdo: Me va bien. ¿Ya estás gastando dinero?Michelle: Solo un poquito. El sueldo ya es tan bajo, ¿verdad? Yo necesitaba comprar una caja de anticonceptivos.Valdo: Pero supe que la ley aquí dice que la mayoría de las medicinas solo sólo con receta.Michelle: ¡Mi padre del cielo! No tengo receta.Valdo: Entonces no pasa nada. Bueno, cuídate. Nos vemos después. Beso, ciao.EnglishMichelle: Hi Valdo, how are you doing?Valdo: I'm OK. Are you already spending a lot of money?Michelle: Just a little bit. My salary is really low, right? I needed to buy a box of contraceptives.Valdo: But I hear that the law says that most medicines need to have a prescription.Michelle: Oh my! I don't have a prescription.Valdo: So nothing doing. OK, take care. We'll see you later. Kisses, good bye!