Fortune's Path Podcast

Ashley Kent - Founder & CEO of Clear Star Creative, a boutique marketing growth agency specializing in venture-backed health tech companiesKey Topics DiscussedBuilding a Sustainable Business and Life BalanceManaging a 15-employee company while raising two young children (ages 4 and 6)Finding joy in simple pleasures: working out, good food, and family timeThe reality of being a working mom in a small community where she's often in the minorityWhat Clear Star Creative DoesBoutique marketing/growth agency focused on venture-backed health tech startupsTwo main service phases:"Crawl Phase": Helping companies validate their target audience and go-to-market strategy"Walk Phase": Building scalable marketing and sales systems beyond founder-led salesThe Evolution of Venture CapitalShift from investing in "dreams and ideas" (2015-2020) to requiring tangible resultsVCs now demand sustainable, repeatable business models rather than relying on individual foundersImportance of building "moats" and differentiation in crowded marketsMarketing PhilosophyThree ways CEOs typically view marketing:Core revenue driverSales enablement ("make things look pretty")Brand awareness generatorFocus on impacting business outcomes, not just creating contentTaking a whole customer lifecycle approach from acquisition to renewalAI's Role in MarketingUsing AI as an efficiency tool, not a replacement for human relationshipsCurrent tech stack includes ChatGPT for ideation and image generation, AI note-taking toolsEmphasis on maintaining human oversight and the relationship-driven nature of businessThe Transition from Founder-Led SalesCommon challenge for companies in the $10-50M rangeDifference between lifestyle businesses and venture-scalable companiesBuilding repeatable systems that don't depend on the founder's personal relationshipsProduct-Led Growth in HealthcareHealthcare traditionally being sales-led but slowly adopting PLG approachesThe complexity of implementing PLG - requires buttoned-up systems and user experienceWarning about pulling product resources away from core developmentRecent Business ChallengesAshley candidly shared experiencing her "hardest six months ever":Lost entire core team within two weeksLost major clients within two monthsHad to rebuild while maintaining operations and caring for familyLearning to balance investment in clients' success with her own company's needsHiring and Team ManagementFocus on behavioral interviews and work ethic assessment90-day probationary period to ensure good fitEmphasis on preventing burnout in high-paced startup/agency environmentImportance of setting clear expectations and boundariesParenting and BusinessExposing her daughter to the business world and strong working womenBalancing being present for family while running a demanding businessTeaching children about the value of hard work and financial independenceKey Quotes"I'm in the people business. We are in the services business where we are building relationships.""If we turned [marketing] off tomorrow, would it really impact our business? Probably not... We have to make sure that we are impacting the business in every single thing we're doing.""The strategic person climbs to the top of the ladder, looks over the trees and says, 'guys, we're in the wrong forest.'""Don't let the facade fool you. It is hard as hell to do this and it will push you in every single capacity."Resources MentionedClay (AI-enabled sales outreach tool)Apollo (sales outreach platform)ChatGPT (AI for ideation and content)Clear Star Creative websiteEpisode TakeawaysFocus over busy work: Strategic thinking means identifying the one thing that will truly move the needleRelationships drive business: Especially in B2B services, human connections remain irreplaceableTransparency builds trust: Being honest about capabilities and limitations creates stronger client relationshipsSystems enable scale: Moving beyond founder-dependent operations requires intentional system buildingResilience through adversity: Even successful entrepreneurs face major setbacks - persistence and support systems are crucialFortune's Path podcast helps service and technology businesses address root causes that prevent rapid growth. Music and editing by Ted Noser.

In this episode of the Fortune's Path podcast, Tom Noser interviews Anderson Williams, Principal for Talent Development at Shore Capital Partners, a private equity firm that partners with entrepreneurs and industry executives to drive growth in micro-cap businesses. Anderson brings a unique perspective from his diverse background as a classroom teacher, entrepreneur, sculptor, painter, writer, and corporate advisor.Topics Discussed:Anderson's role leading talent and leadership development initiatives at Shore Capital PartnersHow Shore Capital works with micro-cap businesses (typically small, family-run businesses) to help them scaleThe Shore Leadership Academy's approach to developing leaders at different stagesHow Anderson's background in fine arts influences his approach to business and educationThe importance of trust and communication as foundations for leadershipThe connection between art, education, and business leadershipHow Shore Capital evaluates potential business partnershipsThe growth strategy of consolidating small businesses to create mid-market companiesKey Takeaways:Shore Capital Partners invests in micro-cap businesses with the goal of helping them scale, focusing on companies where the founders want to remain involved and grow with a strategic partner.The Shore Leadership Academy focuses on developing leadership at all levels, from first-time managers to executives, with a curriculum that progresses from self-development to team leadership to strategic business thinking.Anderson attributes much of his approach to business and leadership to his background in fine arts, particularly how it taught him to see differently, accept feedback, and continually iterate.Trust is described as foundational to leadership, with three distinct dimensions: personal trust, organizational trust, and strategic trust.The best teachers (and leaders) combine authentic passion for their subject with the ability to make content relevant to learners' real-world experiences.Anderson describes education as being about delivery, while learning is about what people do with knowledge - applying it in new and interesting ways.Shore Capital's investment strategy looks for "barbell industries" where there are many small players and a few large ones, creating opportunity to build in the middle through strategic acquisition.Business success ultimately comes from human relationships: "We're humans working together with other humans and human-created systems to provide products and services to solve problems for other humans. And we call it a business."Guest Bio:Anderson Williams serves as Principal for Talent Development at Shore Capital Partners, leading their talent and leadership development initiatives. With a diverse background as a classroom teacher, entrepreneur, sculptor, painter, writer, and corporate advisor, Anderson brings a unique perspective to leadership development. He holds a Master's in Fine Arts from Cranbrook Academy of Art and has been with Shore since 2021.

[00:00:00] - IntroductionTom: Setting up today's discussion points: establishing new standards in software, using tech for effective learning, and the possible conflict between educational system administrators and students.Guest: David Ells, Managing Director of Open LMS, an open-source learning management system provider.Overview of David's background in online learning with over 15 years of experience, including work with the Department of Defense on the Experience API (XAPI).[00:01:09] - Early Career and Entry into Learning TechDavid: Shares his accidental entry into the learning tech field after earning a master's degree from MTSU.Initial job at Rustici Software leading to a career in educational technology.Discusses the meaningful impact of developing educational tools and the transformative power of education.[00:03:53] - Importance of Experiential Learning in HiringTom: Probes the significance of certifications versus experience in hiring.David: Emphasizes experience and practical application of knowledge as primary hiring factors over certifications.[00:05:35] - Introduction to XAPITom: Attempts to describe XAPI.David: Explains XAPI's basics—data format and communication protocol for learning events, allowing detailed tracking of learning activities across various platforms and contexts.[00:07:37] - XAPI's Vision and DevelopmentTom: Shares initial skepticism about XAPI but appreciates its potential.David: Discusses the broader vision of XAPI, including data mobility and creating verifiable credentials for lifelong learning records.Insights on corporate and academic applications and interoperability with different forms of learning content.[00:10:52] - Industry Adoption and Impact of StandardsDavid: Describes efforts to establish XAPI, parallels with existing industry standards, and the critical role of adoption.Historical context of SCORM and the unique challenges and opportunities it presented.[00:15:00] - Rustici Software's Contribution to XAPITom: Questions about Rustici's role in developing SCORM and transitioning to XAPI.David: Details Rustici's research and industry contributions leading to XAPI's development and its collaborative approach.[00:21:00] - Launching and Promoting XAPIDavid: Discusses the practical and marketing challenges in launching a new standard and gaining adoption.Realizations and reflections on what might have been done differently for better adoption rates.[00:28:10] - XAPI's Broader Applications and LimitationsTom: Explores XAPI's potential beyond learning contexts.David: Outlines XAPI's flexibility, acknowledging both its strengths and weaknesses, and practical applications in data-driven contexts.[00:38:08] - Managing Data with WatershedTom: Discusses the potential overwhelming amount of data XAPI could collect.David: Describes the importance of filtering data to extract meaningful insights and the role of tools like Watershed in this process.[00:43:42] - Transition to Open LMSDavid: Talks about his move to Open LMS and the shift in focus to higher education.Differences between corporate and academic markets and the commonalities in learning management needs.[00:45:03] - Comparing Corporate and Higher Education LMS NeedsDavid: Discusses the evolving needs of universities to prepare students for careers and the corporate focus on skills-based training.[00:50:14] - Conflict Between Learners and AdministratorsTom: Expresses views on the inherent conflict between learners and administrators.David: Compares this to IT departments versus end-users, discussing the potential synergy with modern SaaS and cloud-based solutions.[00:58:16] - Future of EdTech and Learning SystemsDavid: Envisions a future where learning is skills-based and highly personalized, breaking the traditional degree format.Discusses the potential for more granular and modular learning experiences.[01:00:10] - Collaborations Between Academia and IndustryTom: Asks about formalizing partnerships between universities and industries.David: Discusses the potential for these partnerships, acknowledging existing informal pipelines and the mutual benefits.[01:02:17] - Personal Goals and Vision for Open LMSDavid: Shares his aspirations for the growth and success of Open LMS.Emphasizes the adaptability of Open LMS and its potential leadership in emerging educational trends.[01:02:54] - ConclusionTom: Thanks David Ells for the conversation.David: Expresses enjoyment and appreciation for the dialogue and Tom's writing.

JJ: "My my dad was in the music business. He did this thing called mobile recording, where he had this 18 Wheeler truck, in the back of it was a recording studio. And so he would go around the country recording, you know, all kinds of live concerts and albums. And so by the time I got to maybe, I guess, seventh grade, my summers, I was a roadie. So I did that for my summers. And that was really fun for maybe like a week or so. And then I quickly saw that oh, this is pretty hard."JJ: "To be like a techie it was all about you had to be real good at math or something. And so you had to be kind of a math nerd. And I just pictured. "Okay, I'm not that.".. But as it turned out a lot of tech is about at least I've found is more about creativity."JJ: "We've gotten deep into AI. The attitude internally we had at our company was, okay, this is both a threat and an opportunity kind of thing.""Tom: I don't think large language models are going to be with us as, like, a permanent thing. I think eventually they may turn into just like a parlor game. Sort of an amusement. It's just statistically predicting what might come next. That feels like a fatal flaw.  There's a structure problem that is fatal. "JJ: "We went years with  no formal marketing. We were working and lucky to be in a field where there's been some demand.  So just trying to do a good job and live off of referrals. Over time, as we  grew, you  want to shift from being reactive to being proactive. That's what I felt would be good to do. That's when we started investing in  marketing internally. "

"8% of the male population is colorblind, especially to red and green. And so think about the stock market and how that reads, or any kind of financial or big data company and their prevalent uses of green and red.  People see those colors in shades of yellows and beige. ...I think accessibility design is still up and coming.  I think user experience as an industry is still in its infancy... incorporating it into corporate spheres, companies, what does that mean?  I make it a business to help build toolkits on how to define what it is that we do." "Generally people put out surveys at the beginning of a workflow or when someone first drops into their site before login or after login. But where I find that type of survey being really beneficial is after they do something.  So they come there with a certain thing in mind that they want to do.  That is exactly when you should throw up those two questions: a rating scale or an open ended.""Nashville is a place of connectors: "Hey, you know what? I know this person, let me email them for you. There is that love here of  meeting, meeting people  organically.""Design principles are  value statements that describe the most important goals that a product delivers for its users.""With with product led growth, focus on customer acquisition, your expansion and keeping your clients. There's four ways to do that. First: it's with user experience and an intuitive interface. Simplify the user journey. When someone's onboarding, consider how  they quickly understand the value of the product just because of the interaction they're having with the first page or the first few pages, and then make sure that it's a consistent experience across all devices. "The second one is UI. You user interface is really the visual appeal of designing for attention. We touch on this with graphic design. It's bringing clarity and language to guide people through features.  Think of things like feedback, how do you know this is working?""Another one that helps with product led growth is interaction design. Micro-interactions, you know, something that has minimal steps to complete the task or reduce friction and encouraging people to use the product later. A notification  saying, hey, you forgot something! Those are all ways that, you know, kind of brings growth. You don't necessarily think about it.""The last one is showcasing  something that you can use for free. But then explaining: 'hey there's these other features that you might like!' And being exploratory with that."

On the risk of AI programing leading to crummy software: "At the end of the day AI is just a tool, right? And so it's how we choose to use it that could have impacts there. If we allow AI usage to be an excuse to move quickly [when developing software], but sloppily, then yeah, we're going to build more and more software that is is tenuous and has the potential of falling over."On the idea of AI being able to help junior developers become senior developers more quickly: "Unless we are intentional as an industry, we run the risk of replacing the natural apprenticeship that's been in place for a few decades."On AI taking our jobs: "Humans will always seek to work on the things that they're uniquely able to deliver value on, and I think so we'll just keep doing that in software development. But but I am worried about what the path looks like for people to get to that level of expertise."On his new venture Ducky.foo: "Ducky.foo is is the outcome of me wrestling with the disparity that AI assistants are creating in terms of junior developer versus senior developer productivity... Create a human community where more experienced developers can teach and mentor and share their hard won expertise and real world knowledge with junior developers, but do it at scale...it's not novel to think of a community of software developers of different experience levels helping each other out. But I think what is novel is that I think we can hyper scale this type of community by injecting AI into it.""Those with the most going into any kind of innovation tend to be the ones who benefit the most." Ducky.foo is hoping to stop this from taking place with AI innovation, and prevent the fruits of AI innovation from resting in the hands of the wealthy.On the toxicity of Stack Overflow and general trolling: "here's a place where AI does have a leg up. It's infinitely patient, infinitely pleasant. And so I think That's one thing we can borrow from AI as we're building Ducky.foo.”

Key Takeaways“Applying to college is a series of tasks where you need information, guidance, and you need support through your own discernment process. It doesn't have to be terrible. It doesn't have to be scary.”“I use the word discern a lot. And I do that intentionally to discern who they are. Because when you start a college as a freshman, you're not the same person you are when you finish as a senior. And we need to get that right environment where it can be flexible and support that kind of academic, social, and emotional growth.”“…what's your philosophy of education? Do you view it as a means to an end, or is higher ed kind of this banquet table, you go and you feast and you try things, and it's just important to know what you don't like as it is to find out what you do like and what you're passionate about. We need to be strategic and intentional with choices for our students.”On her pro bono clients: “Helping them realize their potential, but to also broaden…horizons…look at it through this lens.”“If someone starts off a conversation, I want my child to go to a really competitive school. There's a lot to unpack in that statement. Once we start teasing out those factors…what I'm really hearing is I just want the best for my child. I don't know what that means. I don't have language around this, so I'm going to say an Ivy, I'm going to say, the best, the most competitive and what the most competitive for I'd say the majority of people isn't always the best decision.”If you work with Beth, you're getting a process, not an outcome. It's sometimes hard for parents to understand.“Children learn what they live. When they're shown another way. They're always receptive. I always said I can work with any student - parents: That's a different story. Kids are not the issue.”“Sometimes people just need to be reminded that they can do hard things.”

2:12 - Why she became a self-pay patient after two medical bankruptcies. 9:22 - How to navigate self-pay by removing fear-based thinking (I must have health insurance) and negotiate with every single healthcare service you pay for. 11:02 - The freedom that comes with leaving health insurance behind and embracing self pay.11:58 - How hospital foundations and patient pay advocates have emerged to embrace (somewhat) self-pay.12:49 - As a high earner, she does not use these foundations, but negotiates to pay her bill. She's also a member of Christian Healthcare Ministries (CHM),  a health cost sharing ministry. 13:20 - How CHM works - you become a member, pay a monthly fee. When a healthcare episode arises, you access CHM to get your healthcare bills paid, or shared. 15:14 - Sloane details the self-pay patient journey, how self-pay doesn't trickle through to all areas of the healthcare industry, and how to educate each sector about self-pay.22:50 - How to ask for the self-pay rate as a patient.25:00 - Where Sloane negotiated for care from one provider that was 75% less than what another provider quoted. 26:35 - How physicians are fairly  knowledgeable about self pay, but those in their business offices are not. They are trained to work with insurance. She packs her "patience and grace" to ask them to do something that is unusual. 29:25 - Tom pivots the conversation to how Sloan copes with a diagnosis of a terminal illness (at age 23). She doesn't let it define her, and looks at her condition as a chronic illness. 30:23 - How Sloane and Tom agree that it is the dying person's responsibility to prepare the living  for their own death. 34:14 - Why doctors ignore DNRs (hint: it has to do with litigation). 35:10 - Tom laments that modern Stoics don't talk suicide the way the original Stoics did - it is the last vestige of our wills. 37:50 - Sloane shares her grandmother's advice about friendship: you really only need 6 friends in life; 3 on one side of the casket, and 3 on the other. 38:10 - The extreme rarity of having one really close friend. 40:00 - Shifting to business, how she found herself in Nashville's health tech scene. Pre-pandemic, it was crowded, healthy and vibrant. Backed by Nashville and nationwide private equity and venture capital firms, and also supported by local institutions like the Nashville Entrepreneur Center, Nashville Healthcare Council, local family funds, and others, founders were getting a lot of support. 41:13 - When founder-led companies become responsible for creating shareholder value. The trajectory to create shareholder value is a big change, and she learned how sales and marketing played such a significant role in creating that value. 42:35 - Creation of her secret sauce: the strategy/methodology/execution of marketing to build to exit, and understanding how to make quick pivots as needed. 44:02 - What healthcare doesn't talk about post-pandemic: the rise in chronic disease, chronic care. Fortunately, many tech companies have come forward to begin to address this issue, but the exits are not as speedy as they once were.45:29 - The role of a strategic story in an exit, and how your fly paper is still whether or not you created shareholder value. But healthcare needs to re-think intellectual property.47:00 - The other way to re-frame and look at shareholder value: the customer relationships you create. If you can own a swim lane in the market, and really own it well, that has enormous value. 48:16 - How mergers often destroy value by devaluing the brand and the culture. 51:24 - Who shaped her marketing philosophy, Marty Neumeier, who was Steve Jobs' brand mentor. She believes, as Marty maintains, that a brand isn't what you say it is, it's what your customer says it is. 54:17 - How she loves founder-led companies, and how she gets so much more out of it than what she put into it. Her emotional paycheck gets cashed every time she sees someone get a check they never thought they would get.      

Takeaways: Selling into healthcare takes a long time - for good reason.Having worked in both the education and healthcare market selling software, both are difficult markets. While healthcare has more budget than education, both take forever to make a decision.Young entrepreneurs should think about getting some enterprise-level experience before starting a company.How entrepreneurship is like parenthood: you don't know it until you try it.Early technical decisions can have an outsize downstream impact, and is perhaps more important than go to market activity.Moore's most important job as CEO was first to drive revenue, then later to set the company vision and cultivate its culture.In his current role as an advisor, he stresses operational discipline over founders habits.The number one attribute for entrepreneurial success? Being able to work through ambiguity.Managing customers and raising kids both involve cultivating their independence from you.Jason's favorite saying? "People gonna people." It's not just negative - people also do amazing things. But just know that folks will disappoint you at some point.Advice to his 23 year-old self: Push through the hard times and keep people close; don't lose your focus on them.

Takeaways: Why it's not so much that Eric is a believer in alternative assets, but that he believes in a diversification of investment portfolios. That illiquidity of alternative assets is a feature, not a bug. The legal challenges of getting Alto started took longer than the anticipated technical challenges of simplifying the workflow processes of alternative investments.The 'greater fool' theory in investments.How public markets are no longer being driven by the fundamentals of investing and operating.Alto's three levels of operation: a software business which owns a trust company and also owns a securities company.'Historically good returns' in alternative investments = returns that exceed public market returns.Bitcoin, like money, is an invention based on faith.What comprises 'luck' in business: hard work, opportunity, and a third vector: remaining open to what's happening in the market.The cost - and there is one - to entrepreneurship.

TakeawaysUnderstanding the basics of circuits and quantum computing is essential in comprehending the potential of AI.Transparency and explainability are crucial in AI decision-making to ensure accountability and mitigate bias.Data curation is a critical step in developing AI models to avoid unintended biases and improve accuracy.The application of AI in mortgage and loan decisions requires careful consideration of fairness and ethical implications. Higher education is correlated with earnings, but its correlation with credit worthiness is uncertain.Being completely blind to factors like race and gender in the hiring process may be challenging, but efforts can be made to represent everyone equally.Considering each subpopulation separately and simplifying the hiring process can help ensure fair representation.Ethical dilemmas arise when ignoring correlations that have a strong statistical relationship with outcomes.The application of AI in the hiring process can be effective when combined with human decision-making and a structured, data-informed approach.Chapters00:00Introduction and Recording Confirmation00:38Background in Physics and Engineering03:13Research in Material Design and Quantum Physics04:26Understanding Circuits and Quantum Computing06:37Transition from Research to Business11:14Impact of Ideas and Einstein's Equation13:14Ethics and Risks of Artificial Intelligence17:15Applications and Limitations of AI20:39Ethics and Bias in AI Decision-Making25:24Transparency and Explainability in AI29:29Data Curation and Bias in AI Models34:07AI in Mortgage and Loan Decisions38:15Fairness and Ethics in Lending38:41Correlation between Higher Education and Earnings39:21Challenges of Being Blind to Race and Gender39:49Considerations for Representing Everyone Equally40:24Ethical Dilemmas of Ignoring Correlations41:08Product Development and Answering Ethical Questions41:29Simplifying the Hiring Process42:02Data-Informed Recruiting and Hiring43:14Using Data to Find the Right Match44:24Simplifying the Workflow for Recruiters45:16Focusing on Skill-Based Factors in Hiring46:31The Validity of Resumes in Predicting Performance47:25Factors in Deciding a Good Hire48:15The Tricky Nature of Job Descriptions49:05The Importance of Skills and Job Descriptions50:03The Value of Experience and Starting a Business51:09The Role of Emotion in Decision-Making54:02Introducing Scientific Process into Hiring55:53The Application of AI in the Hiring Process56:58The Human Element in Decision-Making58:16Applying the Scientific Method to Business Problems59:18Learning from Past Research and Being Skeptical01:00:45Checking Assumptions and Being Discerning

Norbert talks about how Adidas starts its shoe manufacturing process, beginning with a business unit who outlines the market need in a comprehensive brief. Then, a designer group begins experimenting with colors, materials and textures. "There's 250-350 operations that need to happen to put one pair of footwear together, so it's a long process... taking up to 16 months," says Norbert.Every new material and material supplier is tested, based on internal standards. Once it moves to being manufactured on the production line, further testing and checking take place. Some analogies and differences - software vs. manufacturing: multiple suppliers and producers are comparable to software engineers writing code all over a complex systemthe value of eliminating variationunlike software, there's no opportunity to "fix it later" in manufacturing, which makes it essential to build a highly functioning quality processquality and compliance can't be an afterthought in manufacturing software and manufacturing need to focus on root cause analysis to build the most robust quality management processrisk analysis is all about error tolerance 

How can a dog get you through bad times? How does selling door to door to non-English speakers prepare you for a career in finance? What should you look for when investing in real estate? These are some of the questions we ask Rich Boucher, veteran real estate investor, dog lover, and sales expert. Rich is the Senior Director, Capital Markets for Alpha Investing, a private equity real estate firm providing investors with access to institutional-grad assets with compelling, risk-adjusted returns. Rich talks how Alpha investing chooses properties, why they only invest in properties that already exist, why high interest rates haven't hurt his business, and why he still wants to sell face to face, on this episode of the Fortune's Path podcast. The Fortune's Path Podcast is a production of Fortune's Path, where we help technology businesses create products that generate monopoly profits. Fractional product management. Product leadership coaching. Competitive Intelligence. Find your genius with Fortune's Path.

Tom talks with Chris Boyd, former VP of Product at Nashville unicorn Built Technologies and now head of product for Trunk Tools, a construction fintech startup. At Built and now at Trunk Tools, Chris is focused on solving the skilled labor shortage by enabling project leaders to increase workforce productivity, safety, and profitability by aligning incentives from top to bottom.Chris joined the Fortune's Path podcast recently from Stanford University, where he was attending a venture capital workshop for promising early stage businesses, to touch on a variety of issues like:What's the best way to incentivize workers? How does Trunk Tools provide immediate financial benefits to them?How do you bring technology to construction and improve outcomes for everybody?What is it like to build a technology company from scratch? 

Ray Guzman, CEO of Switchpoint Ventures, talks about how he joined the military at 17 years old, met his wife shortly after joining the military, and life got really real, really fast. Ray got involved in computer training with a focus on automation. Ray and his wife invested in a commuter in 1995 and became early adopters of technology. Ray tells Tom what non-technical people should know about AI. AI does a good job of stitching words together. What is sometimes lost in that is the sequence of those words don't have an appropriate meaning. The answers we get from AI, while sounding authoritative and correct, may very well be wrong, and in some instances completely manufactured by the AI. Tom and Ray discuss the problems with AI using uncredited sources to create its outputs. Ray tells a story of how ChatGPT rewrote a biography he gave it and did a better job than he would've while a friend of his asked ChatGPT to write his biography from scratch and got a response that was fictitious. Ray tells how he's learning more about mindfulness and being intentional about rest. Tom tells Ray about how his dog Margaret inspired him to become more mindful. Ray tells Tom about his spiritual practice and reading scripture every day. Tom asks Ray about how he balances his ambition with self-acceptance. Ray tells about he founded his venture studio Switchpoint Ventures and how they're working to make a difference in healthcare and other industries.

Andrew tells Tom about his book The Humility Imperative. Andrew tells how he likes speaking  about and teaching on leadership, and how the book came from requests from students to write down his message. Andrew describes how Jim Collin's Good to Great influenced his thinking on humility in business. Andrew tells how ambition directed on behalf of a cause is much more powerful than personal ambition. Andrew tells how, even now as a $20m+ business, small clients are just as important to FortyAU as they were when the business started, and serving small clients is one way FortyAU stays true to its values. Small clients have been critical to helping FortyAU weather different economic storms and grow in all conditions. Tom asks how Andrew empowers his engineers to have an ownership mindset. Self managing teams work best for FortyAU, where the pressure to perform comes from within the team. Andrew encourages his engineers to care about business outcomes and the people effected by the project more than just getting code written. Andrew talks about how software is a living product that's always changing. Tom tells how good enough and available is better than perfect and not available. Andrew says that collisions with customers make software better. Andrew tells how important it is to get feedback from users and embrace change management.  Andrew tells how morale and productivity often go down in an organization when new software is introduced. Andrew tells how his company built a tool that transformed a paper based process into an automated process, but got a lot of pushback from the customer that the software was buggy when it was not. After introspection, the customer realized they had botched their rollout and the quality of the software was high. Tom talks about how it's impossible to avoid user testing—you either do it before launch or it will happened after launch. Andrew says humility works the same way you are either humble, or you'll be humbled by circumstances. Finally, Tom asks Andrew how he wants his kids to think about business.

Luther Cale, Vice President of Clinical Programs at Healthstream, the leading healthcare talent management and clinical readiness solution, talks with Tom about how he enjoys living in Ecuador and raising his daughter there. Luther has been working from other countries for over 15 years. He tells us when it's important to be back in the office and when it's better to be remote. Tom talks about the difficulty of building political capital in a remote work environment.  Luther tells how hybrid work works best. Tom and Luther talk about using virtual reality technology in CPR training with the American Red Cross. Tom and Luther talk about the opportunity and difficulty of using all the data virtual reality collects to show learning results. Luther discusses how data needs to be managed and protected to prevent misuse. Tom and Luther discuss the management of innovation councils. Tom and Luther talk about the strategy of loss leaders. Tom asks what Luther would do differently if he could restart career. Tom and Luther discuss selling into hospitals and whether saving lives is in the economic interest of a hospital. Luther shares his hope that healthcare can become more about remaining healthy than recovering from being sick.

Long time designer, distance runner, and product leader Chris Bradle tells Tom about how his career as an athlete has effected his work in business. Chris suggested that the difference between winning new business and losing is being genuine. Tom asks if it's even a good idea to be authentic at work. Tom tells a story about getting laid off and asks if professionalism is like putting on a mask. Chris says putting on a mask is terrible. Vulnerability is not about being emotional, but about being yourself. Chris says he always knew what he wanted to do but he didn't know who he was when he was young. Tom tells how we make sense of reality by layering stories on top of what we see, but those stories are insufficient. Chris tells Tom how stories create shared meaning and understanding between different views of the same event. Chris talks about good advisors he's had and how their wisdom can help you know when it's time to exit a business. Chris talks about collecting proof before investing in a product, and how it's a bad idea  to fund product discovery. Chris talks about how sometimes it's better not to have money because the constraints make you focus on what you're best at. The pressure of constraints helps you find your scale. Chris talks about how money makes you hire people often before you have the systems in place to support all those people. Chris tells how he got involved in product management. Chris says he was trained to solve problems visually and how he now applies that process to solving problems in his product management practice. Chris didn't know he was prating product management when he built his first start-up. After he sold his business, he had to choose a lane, and chose product management. Finally, Chris talks about how success is not about results but about throwing everything you have into your task.

Nigel tells Tom about his company Foresight and how it helps other B2B SaaS companies make their customers successful. Nigel didn't set out to be an entrepreneur. He worked at DealCloud with his co-founder when DealCloud went from series A through acquisition and finally to IPO. Nigel worked in sales there but found that unfulfilling. He moved to account management and focused on giving clients more value so they would be more likely to renew, tolerate price increases, and buy additional products. While in customer success Nigel discovered a problem that had no solution and then left to create a company to build that product. One thing that drove Nigel to start his own thing was the fun he had in a small company. Instead of leaving DealCloud to go through the same process of series A to IPO, his partner convinced him to create their own company to create Foresight to address churn in SaaS. Nigel talks about how enterprise SaaS is based on managing individual accounts and how that process can be very manual. Nigel tells how account management is often reactive and fire fighting rather than pro-active and strategic. Nigel's a-ha moment came after making a presentation to a large customer who loved his software but wanted to get best practices. Nigel is able to get good response rates on assessments because they come as part of another process like a sales meeting that's already scheduled or a renewal that's coming up. Tom and Nigel talk about how a tech business can start as a services business, but Foresight was not one of those, and that's why he needed front end investment to get his business going. Tom and Nigel talk about the differences between building a business that sells a dream and a business that delivers obvious value from the start. Finally Nigel tells Tom what he plans to do with the money from his next round, which he is in the final stages of closing.

How do you manage and measure product managers? What is the Shape Up methodology and why should you care about it? How do you build a process that creates great products?These are some of the question Tom asks sales and product management veteran Amin Haidar, a six year veteran of Asurion, one of the largest and most profitable private tech companies in America. Tom first met Amin while he was still in college, working full-time at Healthstream while getting his degree. His intelligence, ambition and work ethic made a great impression on every one in leadership, To, included.Amin and Tom discuss how the Shape Up methodology works, how to choose what ideas to invest in as a product manager. Amin discusses how Asurion time-boxes work into five week chunks and focuses their teams work on one thing at a time with seven person teams. Amin talks about how avoids client commitments and manages his now timeline, how he manages urgent requests, how he judges the effectiveness of his product managers, and how he gives feedback in the moment. Amin describes product management as the art of creating a process that creates great products. Amin talks about his transition from a start-up to a large mature organization like Asurion. Amin talks about his style as servant leader and when he knows he needs to be directive and what he does to support his reports when that happens. Amin talks about how he encourages his reports to question him how he tries to have no ego with his teams. Amin talks about leadership's job is to make everyone else successful and how he creates a context for making decisions by keeping things objective as much as he can. Finally, Tom andAmin talk abut the meaning of success and raising kids.

26 year old Walter Hindman tells Tom how he became CEO after losing his job during COVID when his offer was rescinded. Walter tells Tom about Junkdrop Nashville, his junk removal business that gives reusable material to charities. Walter explains why integrity is important to his differentiation. Walter does not give his donors a tax break, but he does show them where their reusable items end up and who they benefit. Walter talks about his dream of growing Junkdrop through franchises. Tom digs into the economics and what stands in the way of scale for Junkdrop. Walter talks about who he hires and how he finds them. He talks about how important having fun is to his business. Walter talks about having to fire people. Walter tells how important earned media like being on the Today show and being written up in the Tennessean has been to his growth. Walter talks about using Google ad words. Tom tells how he felt taken advantage of by another junk removal business. Walter tells about how 1-800-Got-Junk revolutionized the junk business with their simple value—point and it's gone. Walter has taken that idea and added the charity angle so people can feel good about where the junk goes after it's picked up. Tom talks about creating a junk removal as a subscription business.  Walter talks about why he started his business and how he was able to pick who he's competing against. He tells how he had no capital when he started and how he coordinated with a local charity and used his own pick-up. Walter talks about hoarder houses and how strange the work can get. Walter tells how obsessed he gets when he loses a bid. Tom compares competitive intelligence to a musician who gets inspiration from other musicians. Tom describes how he was inspired by his old boss who was generous with his time and would talk to anyone who had a business in health tech. Walter closes out by telling us what he wishes he knew when he started the business that he knows now.

Teja Yenamandra, CEO of gun.io, a staffing and placement firm for software engineers, talks about why he took money after boot strapping his business successfully. Tom and Teja discuss the future of software engineering, automation, and ChatGBT. Teja sees automation being used for invoicing and other parts of running his business, but not for writing code just yet. Tom talks about how insight hasn't been automated yet.Teja has been a CEO for ten years, though he's less than 40. Teja loves working with people and solving problems. Teja describes how business is a canvas for solving problems, and that solving problems and making money are the most fun parts of being a CEO. “People assume I'm smart because I'm a CEO, so I'm challenged less because I have this silly job title,” says Teja. Teja talks about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and how he enjoys it as a domain where nothing is expected other than respecting others. Practicing Jiu Jitsu helps Teja get space away from work to improve his problem solving. Teja talks about how he obsesses about problems even though he knows intellectually that getting away from a problem for a while sometimes helps solve the problem. Tom talks about how meditation helps him when he's stuck even though he can never quiet his mind. Teja tells Tom what's the right cycle on which to update his clients about the progress of their engagement and how gun.io prevents surprises and avoids conflict with its clients. Teja discusses the psychology of raises and how no matter how much we're paid, we get aggravated if we go a year and don't get a raise. The conversation gets cut off when Teja loses power because of tornado winds in Nashville, but everybody ends up OK.

Long time product manager Cooper McGoodwin talks about priotizing features, delegation, and potty training his two and half year old. He and Tom also discuss the pitfalls of scrum and agile, why roadmaps are necessary but overblown, why the only roadmap that matters is the one you can keep in your head, and how prioritization should follow moral principles. Tom makes a case that bad user experience and technical debt are ethical dilemmas because people suffer for them. Cooper talks about how he needs a defensible position to make a priority decision. Tom says a lot of what we do is guess, and Cooper talks about how an OKR process leads to better data collection. Cooper tells about how he's sometimes embarrassed by his own prioritization at sprint demos. 

Ben tells the story of how he started his sales consultancy. Ben talks about getting laid off and how he helped his team, many of whom were also laid off, through the process. Ben says if you're not getting pulled into working for yourself then maybe you shouldn't do it. Tom talks about how anyone who is in the arts like an actor or a writer is in business for themself. Ben and Tom talk about how getting your first customer is what marks the start of any business. Tom and Ben discuss how we take what we're good at for granted and often give it away. Tom tells how effort is not correlated with value. Tom and Ben talk about how paying for a big outside name helps win internal arguments you can't win on your own. Ben and Tom discuss private equity minders and dumb questions from smart people. Ben talks about the managing by spreadsheet crowd and why they are often over valued. Ben admits revenue levers are critical to understand but not sufficient for success. Ben quotes Marty Cagan about how quantitative data tells what's happening and qualitative data tells why. Ben and Tom discuss how to impress someone by doing them a favor. Tom tells how his mother-in-law Betty has a super power for listening and putting people at ease and how that power translates to business success. Ben tells how he interviews people and what he looks for in sales people and why he loves YouTube. Ben asks people, “How do you know you work hard?” to discover if someone is outcome motivated and competitive and what kind of feeling to they have for their own effort. Tom ends the interview with discussing resistance, a concept Steven Pressfield writes about in his book “Do the Work.”

Katie Reilly, long-time product management leader, describes how product management is the glue between technology, sales, and go-to-market and how any organization can benefit from product management. Katie and Tom discuss how the discipline of product management is needed to make sure a product meets the needs of the market. Tom asks Katie how she applies product management to her own life. Katie tells how winning is when all boats rise - helping others achieve outcomes and how improving the offering of a business leads to better outcomes for the business. Tom and Katie talk about how parenting is like running a start-up. Katie talks about listening first and making a decision based upon those inputs. Katie tells why she loves product management, how it's central to a business but always has new challenges, and how having a direct impact on the business is important to her. Tom and Katie talk about kids and sports and having fun. Tom suggested not making kids play sports if they are not good at sports. Katie tells how series A and series B companies are where she has the most fun. Tom asks Katie about how to close the gap between founder vision and what customers want to do. Katie talks about prioritization and creating business cases for development, building a customer success team to manage inbound requests and to do outbound support and research, how she assess product managers, how she helps an organization move from web to mobile, and why knowing why something needs to be done is so important. Finally, Katie tells how she wishes she had thought bigger with her start-ups even though things worked out great.

Robert Carroll, successful entrepreneur and product leader, tells Tom about his journey as a father and how he's approached different stages of his career based on his personal needs. Robert tells about an early digital video product he built that sold for $300,000 a unit, and then discusses how a technical advantage can evaporate quickly. Tom asks if it's better to be consistently bad in software interfaces than to be uniquely good. Robert talks about how markets define standards like the QWERTY keyboard. Robert tells about creating one company to help people with physical disabilities use computers effectively and another one that helped Fortune 500 companies apply principles of product management to their sales processes. Tom and Robert talk about the psychology of pricing and why companies choose expensive options. Tom asks Robert how he decides between self funding and getting outside investors when he starts a new business. Robert talks about how understanding intent when founding a business is critical for knowing how to fund the business. Robert tells about the founding of his three businesses and how different ideas about what he wanted to achieve affected each. Robert tells how product managers need to understand the capabilities and deficiencies of the technology their products use. Tom and Robert talk about learning styles and teaching strategies, managing technical teams, and being a servant leader. Robert tells about defining clear goals for teams and his resistance to "embracing ambiguity" instead of being clear about objectives. Finally, Robert talks about being in the “fourth quarter” of his career and how he's defining what he wants to do next.

John Farkas, founder of Golden Spiral Marketing, tells how his first job working in a hardware store prepared him for a career in marketing. According to John, marketing is largely about helping people find the right tools to get a job done. John talks about how his first career in theater led to the founding of his digital agency. From theater John learned there are many different ways to get an idea across, and how important audience interactions are to communication. John followed his love of theater into production and directing. Theater production led to corporate events which led to building websites for businesses. John is a student of pragmatic marketing and believes "our opinions, while interesting, are irrelevant." The customer has the one opinion that matters. Technologists have to imagine the world in the way it ought to be while building a bridge to where users and customers are today. Marketing tells the story of how and why people should "cross the bridge" to the new way. John tells Tom to create value with his marketing. "If we're going to put a blog out, we better learn something when we write it," says John. “Do research that adds to your own knowledge and then share that new knowledge with your audience,” is John's advice for content creators. Tom asks John if activity is more important that content quality. John says social media allows us to have fun with marketing, but the end goal of marketing is serious: value creation. Tom asks John what to look for to know that a marketing spend is worth the price. John says product information takes a long time to show any return while valuable information can attract an audience. “You have to have valuable information to give away if you want to succeed in digital marketing,” says John. Tom asks John about running a family business – John's son is the leader of creative at Golden Spiral. John tells how working with family makes you smarter but requires a lot of discipline around respecting boundaries. Candor is essential for making the relationship work. Finally John talks about differentiation for software products and the importance of how value is delivered when features between products are similar. “If you understand who you are and what you bring, and you understand it extraordinarily well, you're going to see results.”

Chris Gann started in product development when he was very young, working in healthcare EDI at the dawn of HIPAA while promoting his punk band. Chris taught himself to use the resources available and "read recipes" to make new products. "I learn through doing," says Chris, "and it can be hard to give direction to others when you learn through doing." Today Chris is a leader of other product managers. When he's hiring he looks for disposition and character over direct product experience. Curiosity is the big thing for Chris. "If you already know the answer, then you're not a product manager," says Chris. Being engaged and grit are close seconds to curiosity for Chris. Chris loved playing bass in bands and feels that product managers are like bass players  – they make everyone around them sound better. Chris knows he's the right fit for product management because he's comfortable working between worlds; a negotiator with everyone else's perspective in his head. Chris can see all sides equally and believes  "objective truth is not a thing to be found." Chris feels more rewarded by curiosity then by knowing. Tom and Chris talk about the differences between committing to a course of action and making a final decision. Chris and Tom then get into a discussion of free will and agency versus determinism. "There's the grand sense of things, and there's what you're forced to live in," says Chris, a sentiment that works for product managers prioritizing work and people prioritizing things in their life. Chris and Tom wrap up by talking about strategy, how to help people say "no" to bad ideas and unproductive work, and how important expertise in a discipline other than product management is import for product managers.

Bob "Batch" Batcheler shares his secret for growing his consultancy and finding great companies. He gives his services away, and that makes people want more. Batch tells how his initial conversations lead to one of three outcomes: he has no interest (almost never), he knows someone who can help more than him, or he knows how he can help. Batch tells how his free exploration leads to a request for a commitment to an engagement, and how some of those commitments lead to full-time employment. Batch also talks about how product management is a job that requires 30 ways to say no. "Sell what's available today," is one of his mantras for good relationships between sales and product. Batch sells against alternatives rather than the ideal, and knows how to show that his product is way better than alternatives. "You don't have to be perfect, but you do have to be better than what they can do on their own or with another vendor." Batch tells how he handles the CEO who tells him what needs to be done, CEO's who are often leading organizations that lack focus and have limited ability to deliver. Batch talks about the power of focus and why that leads to more value than spreading yourself too thin. Batch enjoys being engaged and solving hard problems, and tells us why he applies Lean principles to his own life. "There's not an organization or an industry that Lean principles cannot transform," says Batch. Finally, Batch struggles with his APS beeping during a power outage.

Ann Howard, product and technology leader, talks about how leaders need to share information widely and make decisions publicly. Ann says leaders are charged with predicting the future. She lays out her method for making decisions, knowing that there are very few decisions that are irreversible. Ann describes how to scale decisions down, test them, and get information about risks, describes the differences between leadership and management, and how she builds teams that are accountable to each other. Tom and Ann spend some time talking about what makes for bad leaders. Ann talks about when people are drawn to leadership for the wrong reasons, and why you can't be a leader alone. Ann tells why she admires Ray Dalio's idea of hyper realism and the difference between kindness and niceness. Tom asks Ann who is the best leader she ever worked for and why. Tom and Ann talk about raising kids as a test of letting people fail and dig their way out. Tom asks Ann why she doesn't think of herself much when she's leading. Ann talks about how her personal story informs her desire to lead. After Ann tells a story about her daughter on the playground, Tom asks how things have changed for women since Ann was a kid.

What makes a great sales person? And how do you pick a company to invest your money and talent with? These are some of the questions we ask old friend of Fortune's Path Adam Zais. Adam is a longtime technology leader with many early stage successes and positive exits to his name. Tom and Adam discuss what the early days of the PC were like, and how Adam created a product that integrated both hardware and software to create dashboard reports. Adam talks about how reselling someone their own data in a way that helps them run their business is a product people won't just pay for, but will thank you for. Tom talks about how healthcare startups are doing this by getting usable information from the EHR. Tom and Adam talk about how innovation can come from packaging existing technologies in a new way. Adam shares a story about working for a hardware company and how it taught him that success is not always about the best idea and how he found Atria, a great company solving an easy to understand and hard to solve problem that affected a lot of people. It was the CEO and the people at Atria that made Adam want to work as the VP of marketing even if he was only the second non-engineer in a company of 19 people. After a weird digression about AI from Tom, Adam brings the conversation back to knowing where to put your money when choosing companies to invest in. It's best to have both a technology advantage and great people, but if there's no obvious technology advantage, do you trust the people? Tom brings things home by talking about the framework he uses to assess the viability of a new venture.

Carm Huntress, CEO of Credo Health and four-time company founder, talks to Tom about improving access to medical records and other things digital health. Carm explains what Credo does, and why it's good. Tom and Carm disagree about why healthcare systems spend money. Carm tells why he believes transparency and data will lead to cannibalization in not-for-profit healthcare as expensive procedures are replaced with less expensive alternatives. Carm talks about how systems like Intermountain Healthcare have found cheaper, more efficient ways to deliver care, but their processes may not be scalable across markets. Carm then schools Tom on what strategy is and why it's important. Tom transitions the conversation to talk about one of his passions, audiophile equipment. Carm talks about how high margins and addicted customers can be a recipe for success even in a small market. Carm then discusses why capital allocation is the most important skill for growing a business. Carm tells why building enterprise value is his North Star for allocating capital. Carm uses Steve Jobs as an example of how hard it is to get a business right and reminds us of Steve's many years in the wilderness before coming back to Apple for his most prolific period of creativity. Carm and Tom then talk about Amazon's narrative approach to product creation. Carm finishes with why he thinks hospitals that are building more beds are in for a reconning. Tom wraps things up with an idea for an illegal insurance product for healthy people.

Eric Caroll grew up in an entrepreneurial household. His father did the “grind” of running his own business but always made time for his family, even if it meant burning the midnight oil once the kids were asleep. Eric appreciated his dad's clear-eyed focus on what mattered most. In his career as a product leader, Eric has strived to be equally clear in his vision - for his products, for his personal ambitions, and for his family's goals. Eric discusses his daily work rituals, how he reviews goals with cross-discipline teams, and the joy of creating a product that solves users' problems. Tom asks Eric whether he would prefer to have a good boss or be a good boss. Eric explains that constantly asking “why” is the key to building up your curiosity muscle. Tom wonders if you can apply product management principles to family life and Eric gives living proof by sharing his family roadmap for 2021. Eric talks about scoping your goals to fit your means. And Tom casually mentions reading some Seneca.

Bill Horne built the foundation of his career in sales at IBM and realized his dream of becoming an executive at age 40. He is a committed lifelong learner who believes in active listening - and it shows. Bill follows staffing advice he learned from a rug merchant on a flight from Atlanta to Salt Lake City in the 1980s. And credits his mentor with teaching him how to gather and be discerning about data in new and difficult leadership situations. He also reflects on advice from IBM sales legend Monte Stern and the kind and accepting example of his wife's “Meemaw.” Tom asks Bill how you decide where to focus your energy as a leader. Bill says that the key is to start with five disparate data points before you make any decisions. But it's crucial to dial in and really listen to what you're being told - don't listen to see what fits the story that you're looking for. Tom and Bill discuss the limits of what you can control as a leader. Tom asserts that investors don't talk about customers enough in board meetings. And Bill explains that you have to tell the customer story in a language that expert money managers can understand. Bill talks about how hard it is to fire people and Tom confirms that you can't fire your kids when they fail at the tasks you've assigned them to do.

Anne Chaconas likes vanilla, but she doesn't want to be vanilla. She's visually “out there” in most tech leadership spaces and wears her beliefs on her sleeve. Anne explains that knowing yourself and being honest alienates some people but keeps the people who matter most close, forming your tribe. She hopes that her visibility in tech spaces invites other people like her to see themselves in the same spaces. Tom asks Anne if the purpose of marketing is to generate sales. She calls “total bullsh*t” and leads a conversation on building love, trust, and consistency through marketing, making connections to dating apps and parenting. Anne explains why gambling with trust is such a dangerous game. Tom and Anne talk about empathy in corporate governance, the three rules of parenting, and why Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion make some people so uncomfortable. Tom asks Anne the impossible question: How do you define love? And then he asks her about God. In the end, Anne brings it all back to a few simple rules: shut up; listen to what people need; and help them achieve it if you can.

Shannon Hooper talks about how she stays inspired by looking at what's happening on the bleeding edge of technology, particularly writing about the Metaverse – our shared digital reality. Tom asks Shannon if we behave the same way in virtual worlds as we do in the real world, and Shannon says it depends on generations. Shannon also talks about how virtual reality could be applied to therapies for addiction and PTSD.Tom and Shannon talk about how to listen to customers and why customers sometimes misrepresent their needs, why healthcare delivery was upended even before COVID-19, and why good marketers need to understand their customer's business model inside and out. Tom and Shannon also talk about scaling a market and do some on-the-fly product development for one of Shannon's favorite products. Shannon tells how the annoying habits of co-workers may be evidence of their superpower, what outcomes marketing can guarantee, and what operational and technical challenges prevent accurate marketing attribution in healthcare. Finally, Shannon tells Tom how her interest in stoicism and religion has influenced her as an executive.

What makes a good leader? Does it change with the size of an organization? How do you find your safe place when you have to make an important presentation? And why did Michael Bloomberg have a hard time connecting with voters when he ran for President? These are some of the questions we ask Church Garcia, professional speaker, executive coach, and bestselling author. Chuck tells what he learned about leadership from Michael Bloomberg, how the rule of three helps with speech writing and picking the successor to a CEO, why having a goal to build long-term value is better than having a specific exit multiple in mind, how command-and-control leadership contrasts with collaborate-and-connect and why we need both styles, why sales is a chess match, why great leaders are more adaptable than the competition, why business should adopt a scientific approach to experimentation where the only failure is bad process, how finding one thing to fix in your presentation leads to everything getting better, why leading with your heart when your customer needs data driven analysis is a mistake, and why you should never underestimate the importance of intuition.

Tom talks with innovation leader and brand builder Gavin Ivester. Gavin is the former Vice President of Design for Bang & Olufsen, the beloved maker of artful audio equipment and televisions. Gavin talks about creating a principle driven design strategy that delivered double-digit growth in a painfully competitive market, how he started at Apple where he was employee number 2,454, and how he made the change from forklift driver to designer of the original PowerBook. Gavin also speaks about the breakthrough design decision of the PowerBook that's impacted every laptop since, the implications of design principles, how "honesty in materials" promotes sustainability and superior customer experience, how great design and great craftsmanship together create longevity and explain why it can be worth paying $20k for a TV. Gavin also discusses what he learned at Puma where his career shifted from design to product as head of the footwear division, and why licensing can be a sinkhole for your brand equity. Tom ends with a discussion of "the shadow" and how it's reflected in industrial design and managing your life as a product, and Gavin takes us home by talking about the implications of having a successful career on raising children, and what products he loves.

Back in November Tom talked with Chris Boyd, start-up advisor, mentor, and one of the wisest people we know working in product management. For over five years Chris has been the head of product for Built Technologies who recently announced a series C round worth $88M.  Tom and Chris talk about Chris's transition from project manager to product manager and play a game of "spontaneous product development" to create a product to disrupt the U.S. education market. They also talk about the signs of a healthy product and how Built Technology is creating an ecosystem for construction finance and lending by automating manual processes and consolidating data. Finally, Tom and Chris talk about the profession of product management and where it's going, why business savvy is a growing need for the best candidates, and how Chris views getting inspiration from competitors.

Back in September Tom talked with Mohit Pureby, long-time food production executive, entrepreneur, and expert in the Asian market. Mohit is a 24 year veteran of Cargill, a giant in food production, and is now the Director of Distribution and Business Development, Asia at Bunge, an American agribusiness and food company. Tom and Mohit talk about how we can feed 9 billion people, Earth's estimated population before 2050, life in Singapore and how one party rule is like a large corporation, how to manage large organizations, the challenges in going international, why principles are critical for rapid growth, and how collective action can solve the environmental crisis. Tom and Mohit also talk about what technologies can help reserve our consumption trends and preserve the Earth. Mohit believes a combination of economic incentives, regulation, and conscious consumers can save the Earth from bad food production practices. See if you agree with him on this episode of the Fortune's Path podcast.

Tom explains how he wrote his book Fortune's Path: How to Use the Principles of Recovery to Find Fortune and Happiness, why he wrote it, and how he feels now that it's done. Tom also reads the 12 Steps of Product Management (we all have to manage the products that are our lives), the Forward (written by his son Joe Noser, 23) and the Introduction. Fortune's Path: How to Use the Principles of Recovery to Find Fortune and Happiness will be published by Forbes Books in November of 2021 and available for pre-sale beginning September 2.

Dan Hogan, founder of Barrel Stock Trading Company, a fund that invests in Kentucky Bourbon, talks about learning from failure and success and why we shouldn't try to choose between achievement and enjoyment. Dan believes money is the lifeblood for any entrepreneur. Dan's first investor was his father, who bought a 1984 Cadillac Fleetwood with 410,000 miles to support Dan's limousine business. Dan also started with his college roommate an event business, a retail store, and other businesses before Dan went out on his own to purchase a home health agency. Dan's experience in home health led him to found Medalogix, a successful home health data analytics and operations improvement company. Dan worked for ten years in software sales for EMC where he learned the importance of how money moves in the world. Tom and Dan talk about how businesses are like bonds, and how building a business to grow is not the same thing as building a business to sell. Dan explains why he tells young entrepreneurs to raise more money than they think they'll need, and why trying to preserve your equity at the expense of the viability of the business is a mistake. Dan and Tom talk about why seeing things through the eyes of a beginner is essential to creating a new product and to parenting, and how developing a digital voice is more important than having a great personal network, and how bourbon is like bitcoin.

Jonas Fridrichesen, long-time sales leader and Chief Revenue Officer for VerityStream, a healthcare credentialing and verification Software-as-a-Service platform, talks about leading sales teams, rising above the noise in healthcare, and why the challenger sales model appeals to him. Jonas describes how his teams have grow revenue by building awareness before demand, why he prefers sales to marketing after managing both, though he enjoys "the chess match of sales and the creativity of marketing." Tom asks Jonas about his theory that customers are like children, and Jonas talks about why building trust and creating a safe space is so important for parenting, marriage, and sales. Jonas tells how not keeping score helps his marriage even when he's unable to engage and needs to play guitar in his room, and Tom talks about how reasonably demanding customers make our businesses better. Plus, Jonas gives a great definition of emotional intelligence, Margaret makes an appearance, and Tom and Jonas talk about music and competitive intelligence.

What is performance marketing, and how do you incorporate data into your marketing? What are the jobs of marketing and sales? What’s it like to enter the workforce during an economic downturn? These are some of the questions we ask Joshua Oakes, Creator and Founder of the Who First Framework, an audience understanding, product development, and customer acquisition process for executives, investors and entrepreneurs.Joshua Oakes, twenty years veteran of client services, product management, and marketing talks with Tom about the Who First framework and how it helps businesses create and sell products effectively. Josh believes understanding your customer is always the most important thing. Who First is a structured methodology for getting verifiable data about who your audience is, what they care about, and what they think about you. Josh shows Tom what a customer interview is like using Who First and how he's working to turn his professional service into a more scalable product. Josh also talks about creating business metrics that reflect who your business is trying to serve and why he hates marketing personas. Tom and Josh then go on a run about how getting past personas is like a post-racial world, how the reality of why buyer's make purchases is often different from the demographic theory, and why Simon Sinek's Start with Why might be wrong that having a higher purpose for your business translates into measurable results.

Tom talks with multi-award winning Broadway producer Bonnie Comley, co-founder of BroadwayHD, an on-demand video streaming service for Broadway quality live theater. Tom and Bonnie talk about Bonnie's career as an actor, an on-air television personality, Broadway producer, technology start-up founder, and parent. Growing up the daughter of entrepreneurs, Bonnie learned how working in an elevator repair business can prepare you to found a digital streaming platform. Bonnie also talks about how raising money for Broadway shows is like raising money for start-ups, how just being available when someone's first choice quits can jumpstart your career, how work has changed for women since the Me Too movement, why the only people who don't fail are the ones who aren't doing anything, and why no one should end up like Charles Foster Kane.

Tom talks to Cyndee Sugra, serial entrepreneur, creator, musician, founder and Chief Strategy Officer of the Werck Group, a values-driven strategy and product consultancy firm in the Netherlands. Cyndee started, grew, and sold a successful digital agency in Los Angeles before following her dream to live in Amsterdam. Cyndee talks about how she got to Amsterdam, recovering from founder burnout, why she started her second digital agency, why values are the foundation of brand, how she works with clients in a virtual brand sprint before creating new products, what it's like working in Europe versus the U.S., how the Netherlands reacted to COVID-19 during the first summer wave, why it's harder to get funding for a business when you're a woman, what's the right way to use data when creating a product or a brand, how to manage intense creativity and ambition so they don't spoil your life, what artists and entrepreneurs have in common, and how to bridge the gap between leadership's perception of market fit and the reality of the product. Cyndee is very smart.

Tom interviews Brad Stinson, founder and CEO of the Collective Global, a culture consultancy in Nashville. Brad talks about how failure has made him an expert on the culture required to support transformational success and how the Collective Global studied a diverse set of transformational leaders to identify the steps organizations need to take to build relationships that foster success.

In this preview of episode 12 of the Fortune's Path podcast, Brad Stinson, founder and CEO of the Collective Global, a culture consultancy in Nashville, talks about how failure has made him an expert on the culture required to support transformational success and how the Collective Global studied a diverse set of transformational leaders to identify the steps organizations need to take to build relationships that foster success. Look for the full episode soon.

Mark Tochtenhagen, entrepreneur, product leader, and Senior Vice President of Product at Quovant, a private equity backed legal services and technology company, talks about the sacrifices of being a founder, what it takes to build a business, why he's an entrepreneur, what it's like to grow up in an entrepreneurial family, how to bootstrap a business, how to find product-market fit, how to get good intelligence from competitors, how product management should work with sales, marketing, and operations, incremental development,  how to deal with conflict on a development team, collecting competitive intelligence, why he likes Costco, why he loves his current job, and what he's learned from his kids about humility and compassion.

Paige Collins, Vice President of Customer Success at fast growing XOi, talks about being proactive, data driven, and obsessed with making customers successful. Paige describes how XOi navigated COVID-19 with their clients by giving things away and pursuing virtue. She also talks about how to succeed with a board, the problems many start-ups fall into, how to select great customer success talent, what product management and customer success need to do to win together, thoughtfulness around solutions, the discipline of making time to be creative, why she'd rather be a co-founder than a CEO, diversity and favoritism, and how she measures the success of her team and clients.

Brian Adams, President and founder of Excelsior Capital, super-smart, clear, and engaging investor talks with Tom about how to not let money ruin a family and why real estate is a good investment. Brian tells Tom how Excelsior Capital works, why you need to take taxes and fees into account when evaluating the return on an investment, why cash is what matters and not gross IRR, why the S&P 500 is not as diversified as you might think, why preserving wealth is so difficult if you have more than one child, why it can be tough to maintain your lifestyle after you sell your company, the psychological and emotional toll of accumulating wealth, why money is the way we keep score, whether generational wealth is a problem, and why we need a national conversation about the death tax.