Podcast appearances and mentions of Don DeLillo

What does the déjà vu allegedly caused by the Airborne Toxic Event have to do with a disease called Jumping Frenchman? How is Jack Gladney's “day of the station wagons” connected to the first female NHL player's longing for quaint hometown holidays? In Episode 24, DDSWTNP continue our White Noise residency by showing listeners all the hidden connections between DeLillo's most famous novel and his most obscure: Cleo Birdwell's Amazons, his pseudonymous 1980 collaboration with Sue Buck, written as a kind of lark but we think absolutely integral to the satiric vision of White Noise five years later. Our discussion suggests all the ways in which DeLillo seems to have used Amazons as a “laboratory” of sorts, developing Cleo's thoughts on ad shoots, celebrity athletes, Americana, and an ex-player in a deathlike suspension into the richer, more in-depth meditations on similar topics in White Noise. Naturally we give major attention to Murray Jay Siskind, a sportswriter in Amazons who's become an Elvis scholar in White Noise, expressing above all our gratitude that DeLillo came back to him and transformed him, reshaping an already very funny snowmobile obsessive into a Mephistophelean wit and one of the darkest, most memorable characters in the corpus. Those who haven't gotten to read Amazons but know other DeLillo will get a ton out of this episode, for we end up drawing surprising connections not just to White Noise but Americana, End Zone, Great Jones Street, Underworld, Zero K, and others. Turns out this prank of a novel in 1980 paid many dividends for DeLillo. Tune in to hear some fun thoughts as well about a prank of our own: an April Fool's post about a brand-new DeLillo novel we put on social media a few weeks ago. Texts and quotations referred to in this episode: “Pynchon Now,” including short essay on Pynchon's example by Don DeLillo, Bookforum (Summer 2005). https://web.archive.org/web/20050729023737/www.bookforum.com/pynchon.html Ernest Becker, The Denial of Death (Free Press, 1973).  John N. Duvall, “The (Super)Marketplace of Images: Television as Unmediated Mediation in DeLillo's White Noise.” In Mark Osteen, ed., White Noise: Text and Criticism (New York: Penguin, 1998), pp. 432-55. Adolf Hitler, “Long Live Fanatical Nationalism” (text of speech). In James A. Gould and Willis H. Truitt, Political Ideologies (New York: Macmillan, 1973), p. 119. Gerald Howard and Mark Osteen, “Why Don DeLillo Deserves the Nobel: A Conversation with Gerald Howard and Mark Osteen,” Library of America, January 17, 2024 (source for Howard's remark that DeLillo's manuscripts need no editing).https://www.loa.org/news-and-views/why-don-delillo-deserves-the-nobel/

durée : 02:57:02 - Les Nuits de France Culture, archives d'exception - par : Catherine Liber - Trois heures avec cette figure majeure de la littérature américaine qui s'est fait connaître avec sa "Trilogie new-yorkaise". Pour cet entretien réalisé entre Brooklyn et Paris, l'écrivain s'est entouré de nombreux amis : Jacques Dupin, Sophie Calle, Don DeLillo, Hubert Nyssen... - réalisation : Virginie Mourthé - invités : Paul Auster Écrivain américain; Sophie Calle Artiste plasticienne française; Hubert Nyssen Fondateur des éditions Actes Sud; Jacques Dupin; Siri Hustvedt Écrivaine et essayiste; Don DeLillo Écrivain; Philippe Petit Funambule

Begrepet "The Great American Novel" ble oppfunnet av John Williams De Forest i 1868, og siden den gang har debatten gått høyt: Er DETTE den store amerikanske romanen? Eller hva med DENNE? 22. mars 2025 er det klart for Klassikerlørdag på Sølvberget, hvor litteraturformidler Tomas Gustafsson og professor Janne Stigen Drangsholt møtes for å diskutere Underworld av Don DeLillo - en bok som ofte nevnes i Great America-sammenheng. (00:00) The Great Norwegian Surprise (02:53) The Great American Novel (10:22) Hva er det typisk amerikanske? (14:38) We have always lived in the castle (16:55) Underworld av Don DeLillo (20:10) Store amerikanske romaner i 2025? (25:02) Kandidater (33:35) En mannlige greie? (38:03) Den store NORSKE romanen? (43:18) Den store norske innvandrerromanen --- Innspilt på Sølvberget i mars 2025 Medvirkende: Tomas Gustafsson, Ruth Stokke Haaland og Åsmund Ådnøy Produksjon: Åsmund Ådnøy Alt om Sølvberget: https://www.sølvberget.no

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit smokeempodcast.substack.com“It was a very bad night for American boobs,” Sarah observed of the 2025 Oscars, where a conspicuous fashion trend has gone mostly unnoticed. Nancy and Sarah are on record for believing boobs are magic, so why did so many gorgeous actresses hide their tractor beams under a bushel? Could it be a sign of fashion's increasing androgyny… or Hollywood's increasing irrelevance? Then, Nancy goes on a multi-part rant about the Tate brothers coming back to the U.S., while Sarah ponders how those two became avatars of American manhood. Finally: Body language in the Trump-Vance-Zelenskyy showdown.Also discussed:* McDonald's serves the world's best Diet Coke* Please don't tell Sarah you appreciate her* 75% of Eagle Scouts are girls?* “Your Dune 2 fan is not watching the Oscars.”* “Boys just want the pretty girl in math class.”* Is J.D. Vance being cast as the heavy?* The end of reading?* Don DeLillo was “a beautiful culmination of the 20th century.”* Why Sarah shies away from talking politics* Has news replaced our need to read tragedy?Plus, Smoke gets a “Dear John” letter, the mystery of Gene Hackman's death, and much more!PS: Spare a thought/prayer for Kat Timpf, recently diagnosed with cancer, whose boobs are rightly being used right now only (or mostly!) to feed her newborn son. Love you Kitty Kat, godspeed xxActual footage of Sarah watching Oscar dresses on the red carpet …Oscars fashion fun behind the paywall, only for paid subscribers …

Roll film! In Episode 23, DDSWTNP continue our White Noise residency by heading to the movies (or the TV screen) and examining Noah Baumbach's 2022 film adaptation of the novel. We discuss the drive over the years to adapt the supposedly “unadaptable” DeLillo for the screen, the 2020s context of this film, and our varied reactions to successive viewings of it over the two-plus years since its release. Other topics include the central performances (especially Adam Driver as an unexpectedly good Jack Gladney and Don Cheadle as a refashioned Murray Siskind); Baumbach's successes and failures at re-ordering DeLillo's dialogue and visually distilling certain themes; and his shaping of the narrative as a “meta-cinematic” journey through his personal film history and a mixture of genres. Reviews by Tom LeClair, Marco Roth, and Jesse Kavadlo figure in our analysis, and we close by considering whether we do in fact “need a new body” in the film's concluding supermarket song and dance number, which in our view captures some of the novel's themes and distorts others. We'd love to hear on Instagram or email what you think of the film and our reactions, too! We also take a little time to correct a historical error in our Episode 19 on Rachel Kushner's Creation Lake. Texts and sources for this episode: White Noise (dir. Noah Baumbach, 2022) (Netflix). Film adaptation pages at “Don DeLillo's America”:http://www.perival.com/delillo/whitenoise_film_2022.htmlhttp://perival.com/delillo/ddoddsends.html Patrick Brzeski, Alex Ritman, “Noah Baumbach on Getting LCD Soundsystem to Create New Track for ‘White Noise,'” The Hollywood Reporter, August 31, 2022.https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/venice-noah-baumbach-white-noise-lcd-soundsystem-1235209318/ Jesse Kavadlo, “Don DeLillo's ‘White Noise' Remains Unfilmable,” Pop Matters, January 11, 2023.https://www.popmatters.com/white-noise-noah-baumbach-unfilmable Tom LeClair, “The Maladaptation of White Noise,” Full Stop, December 29, 2022.https://www.full-stop.net/2022/12/29/features/tomleclair/the-maladaptation-of-white-noise/ Jon Mooallem, “How Noah Baumbach Made ‘White Noise' a Disaster Movie for Our Moment,” New York Times Magazine, November 23, 2022.https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/23/magazine/white-noise-noah-baumbach.html Marco Roth, “Don DeLillo on Xanax,” Tablet, November 3, 2022.https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/don-delillo-xanax-white-noise-noah-baumbach

Kate Wolf and Medaya Ocher are joined by Deborah Treisman, the fiction editor at The New Yorker and host of The New Yorker's Fiction podcast. Deborah is the editor of a new anthology of short stories, A Century of Fiction in The New Yorker, 1925-2025, which features some of the incredible writers that The New Yorker has published over the past 100 years. There are stories by J.D. Salinger, Philip Roth, Muriel Spark, Vladimir Nabokov, Jamaica Kincaid, Mary Gaitskill, Don DeLillo and Zadie Smith and many, many more. Deborah discusses how she put the collection together and how she thinks about the short story as a form.

Kate Wolf and Medaya Ocher are joined by Deborah Treisman, the fiction editor at The New Yorker and host of The New Yorker's Fiction podcast. Deborah is the editor of a new anthology of short stories, "A Century of Fiction in The New Yorker, 1925-2025," which features some of the incredible writers that The New Yorker has published over the past 100 years. There are stories by J.D. Salinger, Philip Roth, Muriel Spark, Vladimir Nabokov, Jamaica Kincaid, Mary Gaitskill, Don DeLillo and Zadie Smith and many, many more. Deborah discusses how she put the collection together and how she thinks about the short story as a form.

Allt viktigt ska hända sedan, inte nu. Mattias Hagberg söker en motlitteratur som visar oss bort från en värld där alla vill äga undergången. Lyssna på alla avsnitt i Sveriges Radio Play. ESSÄ: Detta är en text där skribenten reflekterar över ett ämne eller ett verk. Åsikter som uttrycks är skribentens egna.Don DeLillos sjuttonde roman ”Noll K” från 2016 inleds med en mening som jag har svårt att släppa:”Alla vill äga världens undergång.”Det är en märklig rad. Nästan obegriplig.”Alla vill äga världens undergång.”Vad betyder den? Hur kan den ens vara möjlig?Jag återkommer till den där meningen, med ett möjligt svar, men för att nå dit måste vi gå en omväg, en omväg som börjar i samma roman, men som snart kommer att ta oss någon helt annanstans.”Noll K” är en text om döden, och om det eviga livet. I en nära framtid håller tekniken på att göra verklighet av kristendomens löfte om evigt liv. På en hemlig ort i Centralasien finns en högteknologisk anläggning, kallad Konvergensen, där världens miljardärer kan frysa ner sina kroppar för att en dag bli upptinade när medicinen gjort sådana framsteg att de kan leva för alltid.Konvergensen är uppståndelsen från de döda som teknologisk vision. Ja, mer än så. ”Noll K” är en roman om tidens slut, som bär tydliga paralleller till kristendomens urmyt – föreställningen om undergång och pånyttfödelse.Don DeLillo är en författare som ständigt återvänt till domedagen. Redan i de första romanerna från början av 1970-talet är motivet tydligt. Som i ”End Zone” från 1972, om en ung amerikansk fotbollsspelare, Gary Harkness, som blir besatt av kalla krigets massförstörelsevapen och av den ömsesidiga utplåningen. Det är en roman som slutar i ett sammanbrott – inför det moderna kriget verkar förståndet inte räcka till – kapprustningen har, vad man skulle kunna kalla, bibliska proportioner, som så många andra av våra samtida globala hot.Och mycket riktigt gör Don DeLillo just den kopplingen. I ”End zone” låter han huvudpersonen, Gary Harkness, spekulera:“Science Fiction har precis börjat komma i kapp Gamla testamentet... Polarisen smälter. Världens mineralreserver minska. Krig, svält och pest…”Ja, det sena 1900-talet och det tidiga 2000-talet är onekligen en apokalyptisk tid – i ordets ursprungliga bemärkelse. De latenta faror som legat förborgade i det moderna samhället har slutligen börjat uppenbara sig, och världen skälver.Men det som intresserar Don DeLillo är inte i första hand samtiden globala kriser, utan undergången som litterär genre, som social konstruktion, som ett raster som lägger sig över verkligheten och erbjuder vissa snäva tolkningar.“Science Fiction har precis börjat komma i kapp Gamla testamentet…”Han vet att vi måste gå tillbaka till ”Bibeln” för att förstå något väsentligt om vår samtid, för att kunna se apokalypsen för vad den också är – en berättelse, en fabel som format och omformat vår förståelse för världen, och därmed vår förmåga att agera.Den antika judendomen var en religion, om man nu ens kan prata om religion vid den här tiden, som särskilde sig från andra kulter kring östra medelhavet genom att fokusera på tiden och på historien, och på en gud som ingriper i världen.Under århundradena kring vår tideräknings början renodlades sen denna syn på tiden till en egen litterär genre – apokalypsen – först av judiska skriftlärda och profeter, senare av kristna intellektuella. Apokalypsen blev en litterär stil, med en egen och tydlig form, enkel att sammanfatta: Tiden har en riktning, den har en början och ett slut, och innan slutet kommer skall allt viktigt uppenbaras – ofta under katastrofala former.Strukturen finns i judiska apokalypser som ”Daniels bok” och ”Enoks bok”, och den finns i nästan alla kanoniserade kristna texter, som ”Markusevangeliet”, Paulus brev och ”Uppenbarelseboken”.Med andra ord: Den västerländska synen på tiden och historien är en litterär konstruktion, sprungen ur ”Bibelns” berättelser, en konstruktion som format hela den västerländska förståelsen för världens som framåtskridande, kris och återfödelse.Och därmed blir det också möjligt att förstå Don Delillos märkliga påstående att ”alla vill äga världens undergång.”Vad han vill ha sagt, tror jag, är följande: Om föreställningen om undergången och pånyttfödelsen är en av våra starkaste kulturella bilder – en sorts rotmetafor som dyker upp överallt i vårt samhälle – blir det oerhört väsentligt vem som kontrollerar den bilden.Tänk bara på de socialistiska staterna i öst som levde på föreställningen om den kommande förlösningen när det klasslösa samhället äntligen skulle bryta fram.Eller tänk på nyliberalismen med sitt löfte om marknadens frälsning.Eller på högerradikalernas tro på det gamla lyckorikets återkomst.Eller på föreställningen om att ny teknik plötsligt ska rädda oss från klimatkrisen.Allt viktigt skall hända sedan, i framtiden. Inte nu. Inte här. Utan sedan.Men, om allt detta bara är litterära bilder frammanade ur judendomens och kristendomens grundläggande förståelse för historiens riktning, då måste det också gå att erbjuda alternativ – andra slags berättelser. Ja, jag tror det. Och det är just detta som gör Don DeLillo så relevant. Hans romaner är inga regelrätta berättelser, de har ingen tydlig början eller tydligt slut, snarare handlar det om tillstånd. Om en sorts motlitteratur som betonar det varande, i motsats till det kommande. En sorts litteratur som vilar i nuet, i språket. Det är som om han vill säga: Allt det viktiga kommer inte hända sen. Det enda vi äger är detta nu.Nästan alla Don DeLillos romaner bär på en scen där allt detta blir extra påtagligt. Det handlar om ett slags vardagliga mirakel; ofta en soluppgång eller solnedgång. Och ”Noll K” är inget undantag. På romanens sista sidor åker huvudpersonen buss över Manhattan, när han upplever ett ögonblick av ordlös närvaro i stunden:”Bussen gick tvärsöver stan, från väst till öst, en man och kvinna satt nära chauffören, en kvinna och en pojke längst bak. Jag satte mig mitt i någonstans, utan att titta på något särskilt, tom i skallen, nästan åtminstone, tills jag började lägga märke till ett sken, en flodvåg av ljus.Några sekunder senare var gatorna fyllda av detta ljus av det döende dagsljuset och bussen verkade vara bringaren av detta strålande ögonblick. Jag såg på skimret över mina händer. [–-] Vi var mitt på Manhattan, med fri sikt västerut och han pekade och tjöt mot den flammande solen som med kuslig precision stod och vägde precis mellan raderna av skyskrapor.” Mattias Hagbergförfattare och journalistLitteraturDon DeLillo: Noll K. Översättning Rebecca Alsberg. Albert Bonniers förlag, 2016.

We've arrived at the big one, the breakthrough book of 1985 – White Noise. In Episodes 21 and 22, DDSWTNP extend our White Noise “residency” and turn in-depth attention to DeLillo's most popular piece of fiction in another double episode.  Episode 21: White Noise (1) takes an expansive view of the novel's narrative and goes into depth on (among many other subjects) the iconic opening chapter's commentary on America and Americana, the meaning of Mylex suits, Jack's relationships with Heinrich and Orest Mercator, and what it means to be a rat, a snake, a fascist, and a scholar of Hitler in this book's universe. Episode 22: White Noise (2) interprets passages mainly from the book's second half, including scenes featuring the dark humor of Vernon Dickey and of SIMUVAC, the meaning of DeLillo's desired title “Panasonic,” Jack's shooting of Willie Mink (and what it owes to Nabokov), a riveting fire and a fascinating trash compactor cube, and the Dostoevskyan interrogation of belief by Sister Hermann Marie. Every minute features original ideas on the enduring meanings of White Noise in so many political, social, technological, and moral dimensions – what it teaches us about the roots and implications of our many epistemological crises, how it does all this in writing that somehow manages to be self-conscious, philosophical, hilarious, and warm all at once. Texts and artifacts discussed and mentioned in these episodes: Ernest Becker, The Denial of Death (Free Press, 1973).  Adam Begley, “Don DeLillo: The Art of Fiction CXXXV,” The Paris Review 128 (1993): 274-306.            (DeLillo: “And White Noise develops a trite adultery plot that enmeshes the hero, justifying his fears about the death energies contained in plots. When I think of highly plotted novels I think of detective fiction or mystery fiction, the kind of work that always produces a few dead bodies. But these bodies are basically plot points, not worked-out characters. The book's plot either moves inexorably toward a dead body or flows directly from it, and the more artificial the situation the better. Readers can play off their fears by encountering the death experience in a superficial way.”) Buddha, Ādittapariyāya Sutta (“Fire Sermon Discourse”). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80dittapariy%C4%81ya_Sutta Don DeLillo, White Noise: Text and Criticism, Mark Osteen, ed. (Penguin, 1998). ---. “The Sightings.” Weekend Magazine (August 4, 1979), 26-30. Mary Douglas, Purity and Danger: An Analysis of Concepts of Pollution and Taboo (Routledge, 1966). Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov (1880). Franz Kafka, “A Hunger Artist” (1922). Édouard Manet's Olympia (1863). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympia_(Manet) Vladimir Nabokov, Lolita (1955). Mark Osteen, “‘The Natural Language of the Culture': Exploring Commodities through White Noise.” Approaches to Teaching DeLillo's White Noise, eds. Tim Engles and John N. Duvall (MLA, 2006), pp. 192-203. Ronald Reagan, “Farewell Address to the Nation,” January 11, 1989. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjECSv8KFN4            (“I've spoken of the ‘shining city' all my political life . . .”) Mark L. Sample, “Unseen and Unremarked On: Don DeLillo and the Failure of the Digital Humanities.” https://dhdebates.gc.cuny.edu/read/untitled-88c11800-9446-469b-a3be-3fdb36bfbd1e/section/be12b589-a9ca-4897-9475-f8c0b03ca648(See this article for DeLillo's list of alternate titles, including “Panasonic” and “Matshushita” (Panasonic's parent corporation).)

We've arrived at the big one, the breakthrough book of 1985 – White Noise. In Episodes 21 and 22, DDSWTNP extend our White Noise “residency” and turn in-depth attention to DeLillo's most popular piece of fiction in another double episode.  Episode 21: White Noise (1) takes an expansive view of the novel's narrative and goes into depth on (among many other subjects) the iconic opening chapter's commentary on America and Americana, the meaning of Mylex suits, Jack's relationships with Heinrich and Orest Mercator, and what it means to be a rat, a snake, a fascist, and a scholar of Hitler in this book's universe. Episode 22: White Noise (2) interprets passages mainly from the book's second half, including scenes featuring the dark humor of Vernon Dickey and of SIMUVAC, the meaning of DeLillo's desired title “Panasonic,” Jack's shooting of Willie Mink (and what it owes to Nabokov), a riveting fire and a fascinating trash compactor cube, and the Dostoevskyan interrogation of belief by Sister Hermann Marie. Every minute features original ideas on the enduring meanings of White Noise in so many political, social, technological, and moral dimensions – what it teaches us about the roots and implications of our many epistemological crises, how it does all this in writing that somehow manages to be self-conscious, philosophical, hilarious, and warm all at once. Texts and artifacts discussed and mentioned in these episodes: Ernest Becker, The Denial of Death (Free Press, 1973).  Adam Begley, “Don DeLillo: The Art of Fiction CXXXV,” The Paris Review 128 (1993): 274-306.            (DeLillo: “And White Noise develops a trite adultery plot that enmeshes the hero, justifying his fears about the death energies contained in plots. When I think of highly plotted novels I think of detective fiction or mystery fiction, the kind of work that always produces a few dead bodies. But these bodies are basically plot points, not worked-out characters. The book's plot either moves inexorably toward a dead body or flows directly from it, and the more artificial the situation the better. Readers can play off their fears by encountering the death experience in a superficial way.”) Buddha, Ādittapariyāya Sutta (“Fire Sermon Discourse”). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80dittapariy%C4%81ya_Sutta Don DeLillo, White Noise: Text and Criticism, Mark Osteen, ed. (Penguin, 1998). ---. “The Sightings.” Weekend Magazine (August 4, 1979), 26-30. Mary Douglas, Purity and Danger: An Analysis of Concepts of Pollution and Taboo (Routledge, 1966). Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov (1880). Franz Kafka, “A Hunger Artist” (1922). Édouard Manet's Olympia (1863). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympia_(Manet) Vladimir Nabokov, Lolita (1955). Mark Osteen, “‘The Natural Language of the Culture': Exploring Commodities through White Noise.” Approaches to Teaching DeLillo's White Noise, eds. Tim Engles and John N. Duvall (MLA, 2006), pp. 192-203. Ronald Reagan, “Farewell Address to the Nation,” January 11, 1989. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjECSv8KFN4            (“I've spoken of the ‘shining city' all my political life . . .”) Mark L. Sample, “Unseen and Unremarked On: Don DeLillo and the Failure of the Digital Humanities.” https://dhdebates.gc.cuny.edu/read/untitled-88c11800-9446-469b-a3be-3fdb36bfbd1e/section/be12b589-a9ca-4897-9475-f8c0b03ca648(See this article for DeLillo's list of alternate titles, including “Panasonic” and “Matshushita” (Panasonic's parent corporation).)

Looking to start reading Don DeLillo, or already a fan and looking for ways to persuade your friends, relatives, or students to finally access the wonders of White Noise? In Episode Twenty, DDSWTNP offer an introduction to White Noise for the first-time reader of DeLillo, focusing on elements of plot, action, character, humor, and voice that often present stumbling blocks to initiates. We help listeners navigate DeLillo's most popular novel, the “gateway drug” to the joys and challenges that a lifetime of reading his corpus holds in store. We also answer key questions like how to regard Hitler Studies and whether you need to know anything about “postmodernism,” philosophy, or how a media theorist might read the Most Photographed Barn in America before entering DeLillo's world (spoiler: no!). Longtime listeners to the pod will find here, we hope, an episode to send along to anyone they've given a copy of White Noise for Christmas or ever told, “Hey, you should read Don DeLillo.” The first of several episodes to come from us on White Noise as the novel turns 40, this podcast will be followed in 2025 by our deep dives into the novel itself, its massive body of criticism, and the recent film adaptation – so stay tuned, and may you be immensely pleased. First-time readers of White Noise looking for illuminating critical and contextual reading should try some of the essays and excerpts collected in Mark Osteen, ed., White Noise: Text and Criticism (New York: Penguin, 1998), as well as the many excellent resources at Curt Gardner's website “Don DeLillo's America” (http://perival.com/delillo/delillo.html). But as we suggest in the episode, mainly we advise just going back and re-reading all your favorite scenes, or even the whole thing!

A&E on the American election and its overlay with David Cronenberg’s 2012 adaptation of Don DeLillo’s 2003 novel Cosmopolis.

POST FACE, émission présentée par Caroline Gutmann Elle reçoit Bruno Corty pour son "Dictionnaire amoureux de la littérature américaine" aux éditions Plon. À propos du livre : « Dictionnaire amoureux de la littérature américaine » paru aux éditions Plon Bruno Corty est passionné par la littérature américaine depuis l'adolescence. Après avoir rencontré nombre de ses auteurs, il nous livre son abécédaire amoureux, un voyage dans le temps et l'espace, un hommage à celles et ceux qui l'ont fait rêver, qui l'ont bousculé et bouleversé. Il était une fois l'Amérique. Dès l'enfance, Bruno Corty a plongé dans ses espaces infinis, marché avec Thoreau, descendu le Mississippi avec Mark Twain, pris la mer avec Jack London et Herman Melville, tremblé avec Edgar Allan Poe. Pendant ses études, il s'est passionné pour les romans de Dos Passos, Faulkner, Fitzgerald, Hemingway. Devenu journaliste littéraire à la fin des années 80, il a découvert, sur les conseils d'amis éditeurs, les littératures de genre, du fantastique au polar. Il a eu la chance de rencontrer beaucoup d'auteurs : Norman Mailer, John Irving, James Ellroy, Don DeLillo, Russell Banks, Paul Auster, Richard Ford, Jim Harrison, James Salter, Stephen King... Son Amérique à lui raconte la Génération perdue, la Deuxième Guerre mondiale, la Chasse aux sorcières, la Beat Generation, les années Kennedy et Marilyn, le Nouveau Journalisme, le Viêt-Nam, Dylan prix Nobel. C'est New York et Los Angeles, San Francisco et la Louisiane, Jim Morrison et Patti Smith, Elia Kazan et Michael Cimino, des chanteurs, des poètes, des cinéastes devenus écrivains. La littérature américaine a deux siècles. C'est peu et c'est gigantesque au regard du nombre de ses chefs d'œuvres : de Moby Dick à Sanctuaire, de La Lettre écarlate à L'Attrape-cœurs, de Gatsby le magnifique au Dahlia noir, de Manhattan Transfer à L'Adieu aux armes. Bruno Corty, rédacteur en chef du Figaro littéraire, nourrit depuis toujours une passion pour la littérature américaine. Il a logiquement publié des textes sur les deux monstres que sont James Ellroy et Bret Easton Ellis. Il a également participé au manifeste L'aventure, pour quoi faire ?

In Episode Nineteen, DDSWTNP turn outward to a discussion of Rachel Kushner, whose Booker Prize-nominated Creation Lake, a 2024 novel about the folly of espionage, revolutionary violence, life underground, and confronting modernity with ancient practices in rural France, solidifies its author's reputation as a key inheritor of DeLillo's influence and themes. Creation Lake is narrated by a nihilistic spy named Sadie Smith who infiltrates a farming commune called Le Moulin and grows enchanted with the claims of their cave-dwelling philosophical advisor, who argues that Neanderthal life thousands of years ago holds the key to reshaping humankind. In it Kushner explores the legacy of France's 1968 while echoing The Names, Great Jones Street, Ratner's Star, Mao II, and other DeLillo works, as we outline in our discussion. We find rich references as well in Creation Lake to Nathaniel Hawthorne, Joan Didion, Michel Houellebecq, and Kushner's own previous works, especially The Flamethrowers and The Mars Room. Listeners looking for new writing reminiscent of DeLillo and those already knowledgeable of Kushner's works will find plenty here, and we hope this episode will be the first of several over time dedicated to DeLillo's massive influence on exciting new world literature. Texts and quotations mentioned and discussed in this episode, in addition to Creation Lake and those by DeLillo: Joan Didion, Play It As It Lays (1970) and Slouching Towards Bethlehem (1968) Dana Goodyear, “Rachel Kushner's Immersive Fiction,” The New Yorker, April 23, 2018 (includes discussion of Kushner's friendship with DeLillo) Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Blithedale Romance (1852) and The Scarlet Letter (1850) Michel Houellebecq, Serotonin (2019) Rachel Kushner, The Flamethrowers (2013) and The Mars Room (2018) ---. “Rachel Kushner: ‘The last book that made me cry? The Brothers Karamazov,” The Guardian, October 5, 2018 (source of this answer: “The book that influenced my writing: Probably novels by Joan Didion, Denis Johnson and Don DeLillo. But a whole lot of other books, too”) “In a real dark night of the soul, it is always three o'clock in the morning, day after day.” (F. Scott Fitzgerald, “The Crack-Up” (1936)– a line mangled slightly in the episode)

Flat-World Fiction: Digital Humanity in Early Twenty-First-Century America (University of Georgia Press, 2021) Dr. Liliana Naydan analyses representations of digital technology and the social and ethical concerns it creates in mainstream literary American fiction and fiction written about the United States in the first two decades of the twenty-first century. In this period, authors such as Don DeLillo, Jennifer Egan, Dave Eggers, Joshua Ferris, Jonathan Safran Foer, Mohsin Hamid, Thomas Pynchon, Kristen Roupenian, Gary Shteyngart, and Zadie Smith found themselves not only implicated in the developing digital world of flat screens but also threatened by it, while simultaneously attempting to critique it. As a result, their texts explore how human relationships with digital devices and media transform human identity and human relationships with one another, history, divinity, capitalism, and nationality. Dr. Naydan walks us through these complex relationships, revealing how authors show through their fiction that technology is political. In the process, these authors complement and expand on work by historians, philosophers, and social scientists, creating accessible, literary road maps to our digital future. This interview was conducted by Dr. Miranda Melcher whose new book focuses on post-conflict military integration, understanding treaty negotiation and implementation in civil war contexts, with qualitative analysis of the Angolan and Mozambican civil wars. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

Flat-World Fiction: Digital Humanity in Early Twenty-First-Century America (University of Georgia Press, 2021) Dr. Liliana Naydan analyses representations of digital technology and the social and ethical concerns it creates in mainstream literary American fiction and fiction written about the United States in the first two decades of the twenty-first century. In this period, authors such as Don DeLillo, Jennifer Egan, Dave Eggers, Joshua Ferris, Jonathan Safran Foer, Mohsin Hamid, Thomas Pynchon, Kristen Roupenian, Gary Shteyngart, and Zadie Smith found themselves not only implicated in the developing digital world of flat screens but also threatened by it, while simultaneously attempting to critique it. As a result, their texts explore how human relationships with digital devices and media transform human identity and human relationships with one another, history, divinity, capitalism, and nationality. Dr. Naydan walks us through these complex relationships, revealing how authors show through their fiction that technology is political. In the process, these authors complement and expand on work by historians, philosophers, and social scientists, creating accessible, literary road maps to our digital future. This interview was conducted by Dr. Miranda Melcher whose new book focuses on post-conflict military integration, understanding treaty negotiation and implementation in civil war contexts, with qualitative analysis of the Angolan and Mozambican civil wars. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/literary-studies

Flat-World Fiction: Digital Humanity in Early Twenty-First-Century America (University of Georgia Press, 2021) Dr. Liliana Naydan analyses representations of digital technology and the social and ethical concerns it creates in mainstream literary American fiction and fiction written about the United States in the first two decades of the twenty-first century. In this period, authors such as Don DeLillo, Jennifer Egan, Dave Eggers, Joshua Ferris, Jonathan Safran Foer, Mohsin Hamid, Thomas Pynchon, Kristen Roupenian, Gary Shteyngart, and Zadie Smith found themselves not only implicated in the developing digital world of flat screens but also threatened by it, while simultaneously attempting to critique it. As a result, their texts explore how human relationships with digital devices and media transform human identity and human relationships with one another, history, divinity, capitalism, and nationality. Dr. Naydan walks us through these complex relationships, revealing how authors show through their fiction that technology is political. In the process, these authors complement and expand on work by historians, philosophers, and social scientists, creating accessible, literary road maps to our digital future. This interview was conducted by Dr. Miranda Melcher whose new book focuses on post-conflict military integration, understanding treaty negotiation and implementation in civil war contexts, with qualitative analysis of the Angolan and Mozambican civil wars. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/intellectual-history

Flat-World Fiction: Digital Humanity in Early Twenty-First-Century America (University of Georgia Press, 2021) Dr. Liliana Naydan analyses representations of digital technology and the social and ethical concerns it creates in mainstream literary American fiction and fiction written about the United States in the first two decades of the twenty-first century. In this period, authors such as Don DeLillo, Jennifer Egan, Dave Eggers, Joshua Ferris, Jonathan Safran Foer, Mohsin Hamid, Thomas Pynchon, Kristen Roupenian, Gary Shteyngart, and Zadie Smith found themselves not only implicated in the developing digital world of flat screens but also threatened by it, while simultaneously attempting to critique it. As a result, their texts explore how human relationships with digital devices and media transform human identity and human relationships with one another, history, divinity, capitalism, and nationality. Dr. Naydan walks us through these complex relationships, revealing how authors show through their fiction that technology is political. In the process, these authors complement and expand on work by historians, philosophers, and social scientists, creating accessible, literary road maps to our digital future. This interview was conducted by Dr. Miranda Melcher whose new book focuses on post-conflict military integration, understanding treaty negotiation and implementation in civil war contexts, with qualitative analysis of the Angolan and Mozambican civil wars. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/american-studies

Flat-World Fiction: Digital Humanity in Early Twenty-First-Century America (University of Georgia Press, 2021) Dr. Liliana Naydan analyses representations of digital technology and the social and ethical concerns it creates in mainstream literary American fiction and fiction written about the United States in the first two decades of the twenty-first century. In this period, authors such as Don DeLillo, Jennifer Egan, Dave Eggers, Joshua Ferris, Jonathan Safran Foer, Mohsin Hamid, Thomas Pynchon, Kristen Roupenian, Gary Shteyngart, and Zadie Smith found themselves not only implicated in the developing digital world of flat screens but also threatened by it, while simultaneously attempting to critique it. As a result, their texts explore how human relationships with digital devices and media transform human identity and human relationships with one another, history, divinity, capitalism, and nationality. Dr. Naydan walks us through these complex relationships, revealing how authors show through their fiction that technology is political. In the process, these authors complement and expand on work by historians, philosophers, and social scientists, creating accessible, literary road maps to our digital future. This interview was conducted by Dr. Miranda Melcher whose new book focuses on post-conflict military integration, understanding treaty negotiation and implementation in civil war contexts, with qualitative analysis of the Angolan and Mozambican civil wars. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/religion

Flat-World Fiction: Digital Humanity in Early Twenty-First-Century America (University of Georgia Press, 2021) Dr. Liliana Naydan analyses representations of digital technology and the social and ethical concerns it creates in mainstream literary American fiction and fiction written about the United States in the first two decades of the twenty-first century. In this period, authors such as Don DeLillo, Jennifer Egan, Dave Eggers, Joshua Ferris, Jonathan Safran Foer, Mohsin Hamid, Thomas Pynchon, Kristen Roupenian, Gary Shteyngart, and Zadie Smith found themselves not only implicated in the developing digital world of flat screens but also threatened by it, while simultaneously attempting to critique it. As a result, their texts explore how human relationships with digital devices and media transform human identity and human relationships with one another, history, divinity, capitalism, and nationality. Dr. Naydan walks us through these complex relationships, revealing how authors show through their fiction that technology is political. In the process, these authors complement and expand on work by historians, philosophers, and social scientists, creating accessible, literary road maps to our digital future. This interview was conducted by Dr. Miranda Melcher whose new book focuses on post-conflict military integration, understanding treaty negotiation and implementation in civil war contexts, with qualitative analysis of the Angolan and Mozambican civil wars. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/science-technology-and-society

In Episode Eighteen, DDSWTNP wish our author a happy 88th birthday and talk about the international life he led between the mid-1970s and early 1980s. We follow DeLillo abroad, covering his year in Canada (1975) and his much-discussed time living in Athens (1978-1982), tracing influences of these experiences on portrayals of national identity and language in The Names especially but other works too. Central to understanding this period is the powerful change in method that DeLillo made at his manual typewriter that inspired slower, more “serious” work. For those who already know the biography pretty well we also have in this episode some surprising details garnered from his letters in these years to editor and friend Gordon Lish, the remarkable story of DeLillo's response to a Utah banning of Americana in 1979, and connections between the 1981 Athens earthquakes DeLillo lived through and the 1988 short story “The Ivory Acrobat.” We end by considering the “toxic spill” of the news that greeted DeLillo on his return to America in 1982 and energized the writing of White Noise, and we announce too some upcoming episodes that will close out 2024! As is often true, we get significant help in this episode from interview excerpts and more collected at Don DeLillo's America: http://perival.com/delillo/delillo.html Texts referred to and quoted from in this episode: Ann Arensberg, “Seven Seconds” (1988), in Thomas DePietro, ed., Conversations with Don DeLillo, University of Mississippi Press, 2005, 40-46. Adam Begley, “Don DeLillo: The Art of Fiction CXXXV,” The Paris Review 128 (1993): 274-306. Don DeLillo, The Engineer of Moonlight, Cornell Review 5 (Winter 1979), 21-47. [Incorrectly placed in Epoch in episode.] ---, “The Ivory Acrobat,” Granta (Issue 108, 1988) (and collected in The Angel Esmeralda: Nine Stories). Robert Harris, “A Talk with Don DeLillo” (1982), in DePietro, ed., 16-19. Gordon Lish Manuscripts (1951-2017), Lilly Library, Indiana University (https://archives.iu.edu/catalog/InU-Li-VAC9786). Mervyn Rothstein, “A Novelist Faces His Themes on New Ground” (1987), in DePietro, ed., 20-24. Jim Woolf and Dan Bates, “Davis Official's Action Dismays, Horrifies Author of ‘Americana.'” The Salt Lake Tribune, August 31, 1979.

Political noise is as American as baseball and apple pie and in this election season it's impossible to tune it out completely: it's on our televisions, radios, phones, and computers. Brian DePalma's Blow Out (1981) follows a man who is able to hear something underneath all the noise: a perfect character to think about this election season. The real debate for Mike and Dan is whether or not the film makes a statement about the United States and each takes a different side. But they do agree that Blow Out is a wonderful downer and one of DePalma's best. In this episode, Mike mentions Don DeLillo's Underworld, which offers a conspiratorial tone that contrasts with the one that marks Blow Out. Follow us on X and Letterboxd–and let us know what you'd like us to watch! Incredible bumper music by John Deley. Also check out Dan's new Substack site, Pages and Frames, for more film-related material. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

Political noise is as American as baseball and apple pie and in this election season it's impossible to tune it out completely: it's on our televisions, radios, phones, and computers. Brian DePalma's Blow Out (1981) follows a man who is able to hear something underneath all the noise: a perfect character to think about this election season. The real debate for Mike and Dan is whether or not the film makes a statement about the United States and each takes a different side. But they do agree that Blow Out is a wonderful downer and one of DePalma's best. In this episode, Mike mentions Don DeLillo's Underworld, which offers a conspiratorial tone that contrasts with the one that marks Blow Out. Follow us on X and Letterboxd–and let us know what you'd like us to watch! Incredible bumper music by John Deley. Also check out Dan's new Substack site, Pages and Frames, for more film-related material. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/film

In Episode Seventeen, DDSWTNP briefly discuss new Nobel Laureate Han Kang before digging into “A History of the Writer Alone in a Room,” DeLillo's acceptance speech for an award he did win, the 1999 Jerusalem Prize. In this unpublished, hard-to-find text, DeLillo tells the humbling story of the novelist at frustratingly slow work, “shaped by the vast social reality that rumbles all around him,” in a narrative that conjures scenes that resonate with Libra, Mao II, and other of DeLillo's portraits of the artist (while also raising the question of whether DeLillo has a cat). Novelists Thomas Mann, Philip Roth, and William Gaddis make their way into our analysis of this miniature fiction, and we consider as well the meaning of the Jerusalem Prize, the “nonchalant terror” of everyday life, and the young woman writer the essay at its end envisions taking up this legacy of lonely work. Texts mentioned or cited in this episode: Don DeLillo, “A History of the Writer Alone in a Room,” 1999 Jerusalem Prize For the Freedom of the Individual in Society acceptance address. Jerusalem: Jerusalem International Book Fair, 1999. Reprinted in German translation (“Der Narr in seinem Zimmer”) in Die Zeit (March 29, 2001). See also: https://collections.library.yale.edu/catalog?op=AND&sort=score+desc%2C+pub_date_si+desc%2C+title_si+asc&search_field=advanced&all_fields_advanced=&child_oids_ssim=17371596&commit=SEARCH ---. “On William Gaddis.” Conjunctions (Issue 41, Fall 2003). https://web.archive.org/web/20031123133017/http://www.conjunctions.com/archives/c41-dd.htm[Incorrectly placed in Bookforum in the episode.] ---. “The Artist Naked in a Cage.” The New Yorker, May 26, 1997. “Don DeLillo: The Word, the Image, the Gun.” Dir. Kim Evans. BBC Documentary, September 27, 1991. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4029096/ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DTePKA1wgc&t=63s William Gaddis, The Recognitions. Harcourt Brace & Co., 1955.

In Episode Sixteen: “DeLillo's Sentences,” DDSWTNP take a brief break from analyzing full novels to do some very close reading of single sentences from across DeLillo's career. Style and craft, sound and rhythm, and what makes DeLillo (as one critic puts it) a poet writing prose—these are subjects we consider as we look closely at the lines noted below and try to figure out what DeLillo means when he says in 1997, “At some point you begin to write sentences and paragraphs that don't sound like other writers'.” This episode is a deep dive into DeLillo's language but also a pretty good introduction for those just starting to read him. #donutmaker #thehemingwayand DeLillo lines analyzed in this episode: “Much of the appeal of sport derives from its dependence on elegant gibberish. And of course it remains the author's permanent duty to unbox the lexicon for all eyes to see—a cryptic ticking mechanism in search of a revolution.” End Zone (113) “New York seemed older than the cities of Europe, a sadistic gift of the sixteenth century, ever on the verge of plague.” Great Jones Street (3) “Around the great stadium the tenement barrens stretch, miles of delirium, men sitting in tipped-back chairs against the walls of hollow buildings, sofas burning in the lots, and there is a sense these chanting thousands have, wincing in the sun, that the future is pressing in, collapsing toward them, that they are everywhere surrounded by signs of the fated landscape and human struggle of the Last Days, and here in the middle of their columned body, lank-haired and up-close, stands Karen Janney, holding a cluster of starry jasmine and thinking of the bloodstorm to come.” Mao II (7) “The last sentence was, ‘In future years, of course, men and women, in cubicles, wearing headphones, will be listening to secret tapes of the administration's crimes while others study electronic records on computer screens and still others look at salvaged videotapes of caged men being subjected to severe physical pain and finally others, still others, behind closed doors, ask pointed questions of flesh-and-blood individuals.” Point Omega (33) Other texts cited in this episode: “Tom LeClair.” Interview by Andrew Mitchell Davenport. Full Stop, May 19, 2015. https://www.full-stop.net/2015/05/19/interviews/andrew-mitchell-davenport/tom-leclair/ “‘Writing as a Deeper Form of Concentration': An Interview with Don DeLillo.” Interview by Maria Moss. Conversations with Don DeLillo. Ed. Thomas DePietro. Jackson: University of Mississippi Press, 2005. 155-68. “Exile on Main Street: Don DeLillo's Undisclosed Underworld.” Interview by David Remnick. Conversations with Don DeLillo. 131-44.

Notes and Links to Chris Knapp's Work      For Episode 255, Pete welcomes Chris Knapp, and the two discuss, among other topics, a fascination with Elena Ferrante, James Joyce, and other dynamic writers, the interplay between journalism and fiction writing, seeds for his debut novel, the significance of its title, the drawbacks and benefits of writing about such recent times, and salient themes and issues in his novel like colonialism, marital alienation and connection, ennui, and the creep of dystopian mores.      Christopher Knapp's work has appeared in print in the Paris Review and the New England Review, and online at Granta and n+1, among others. He's been a work-study scholar at the Bread Loaf Writers' Conference, and earned an MFA in Creative Writing at the University of Virginia. His novel, States of Emergency, was published on September 3 by Unnamed Press. He lives in Paris with my wife, and teaches in the journalism program at the Sorbonne.     Buy States of Emergency   Chris Knapp's Website   At about 2:50, Chris talks about what it's been like in the run-up to publication  At about 4:00, Chris describes his early literary life and battles with spoilers At about 7:10, Pete and Chris discuss and cite the greatness of Faulkner and Joyce's work At about 9:30, Pete highlights a wonderfully Joycean sentence (one of many) from Chris' novel At about 10:25, Chris shouts out inspiring and thrilling writers, including Rachel Cusk, Don DeLillo, and Sebald, and Elena Ferrante At about 14:10, The two discuss Paris and Naples and prices and experiences At about 16:30, Chris responds to Pete's questions about the interplay between his journalistic background and his fiction writing At about 19:45, Pete and Chris reflect on the interesting ways in which the book's narrator functions in the book and connects to  At about 21:15, Chris speaks about seeds for his novel  At about 22:20, The two discuss Chris deciding to start the book with a heat wave and political and cultural  At about 24;45, Chris talks about the fertility procedures that run throughout much of the book and the way waiting relates At about 27:00, Chris delineates between hope and optimism and how these two qualities characterize the narrator and his wife Ella At about 29:20, The two discuss ideas of sympathy and empathy and comfort and shared pain At about 31:50, Chris responds to Pete's questions about the narrator's writing and charting his and Ella's experiences  At about 32:45, Chris reflects on the narrator's writing and the way that Ella sees him and his writing; he references Raven Leilani and writing on grief At about 34:45, The two discuss the ways in which French colonialism and racism is seen (or not) in the book and in the world At about 36:40, Pete highlights the dark humor of the book, and Chris expands on some of the humor and how it flows for him At about 39:35, The two discuss the “carnality” of a climatic scene in Ella and the narrator's relationship  At about 42:20, Chris charts the importance of a getaway for Ella in Skopje At about 44:20, Pete cites a period of separation between the two main characters and asks Chris about the significance of the book's title At about 49:00, Chris responds to Pete's questions about the drawbacks and benefits and vagaries of perspective in the novel At about 55:25, Chris reflects on narrative and its connections to history and to the novel At about 57:00, Pete compliments two anecdotes/scenes from the book, compares Ella's story of the French and Algerians to Wolff's “In the Garden of the North American Martyrs,” and Chris expands on the views of the narrator's family At about 1:02:50, Chris gives contact information, book purchasing info, and social media info At about 1:04:20, Chris talks about what he's working on and wants to write about in the future          You can now subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, and leave me a five-star review. You can also ask for the podcast by name using Alexa, and find the pod on Stitcher, Spotify, and on Amazon Music. Follow me on IG, where I'm @chillsatwillpodcast, or on Twitter, where I'm @chillsatwillpo1. You can watch this and other episodes on YouTube-watch and subscribe to The Chills at Will Podcast Channel. Please subscribe to both my YouTube Channel and my podcast while you're checking out this episode.       I am very excited about having one or two podcast episodes per month featured on the website of Chicago Review of Books. The audio will be posted, along with a written interview culled from the audio. A big thanks to Rachel León and Michael Welch at Chicago Review.    Sign up now for The Chills at Will Podcast Patreon: it can be found at patreon.com/chillsatwillpodcastpeterriehl     Check out the page that describes the benefits of a Patreon membership, including cool swag and bonus episodes. Thanks in advance for supporting my one-man show, my DIY podcast and my extensive reading, research, editing, and promoting to keep this independent podcast pumping out high-quality content!    This month's Patreon bonus episode features segments from conversations with Deesha Philyaw, Luis Alberto Urrea, Chris Stuck, and more, as they reflect on chill-inducing writing and writers that have inspired their own work.       This is a passion project of mine, a DIY operation, and I'd love for your help in promoting what I'm convinced is a unique and spirited look at an often-ignored art form.    The intro song for The Chills at Will Podcast is “Wind Down” (Instrumental Version), and the other song played on this episode was “Hoops” (Instrumental)” by Matt Weidauer, and both songs are used through ArchesAudio.com.     Please tune in for Episode 256 with Andrew Maraniss, a New York Times-bestselling author of narrative nonfiction. His first book, Strong Inside, about Perry Wallace, the first African-American basketball player in the SEC, won the 2015 Lillian Smith Book Award. Andrew recently launched a series of early chapter books for young readers, BEYOND THE GAME: Athletes Change the World, which highlights athletes who have done meaningful work outside of sports to help other people.    The episode will air on October 1.    Lastly, please go to ceasefiretoday.com, which features 10+ actions to help bring about Ceasefire in Gaza.

In this episode, Steve and Paromita sits down with author Benjamin Liar to discuss his latest book, The Failures, an epic blend of science fiction and fantasy. They dive deep into the inspiration behind the story, which Benjamin has been developing for over 30 years, exploring its intricate structure, interlocking puzzles, and multi-dimensional characters. The conversation covers themes of nature, the loss of connection to the natural world, and the beauty of simplicity.They also discuss their favorite books and authors, including China Miéville, Jeff VanderMeer, Neil Stephenson, and Ursula K. Le Guin. The guest reveals how Le Guin influenced his pseudonym and shares his thoughts on the blending of science fiction and fantasy genres. In the final part of the episode, Benjamin talks about his journey to publication, the collaborative process behind the book cover design, and his openness to future writing collaborations.Tune in for an engaging conversation filled with insights into the creative process, worldbuilding, and the complexities of The Failures.Find Benjamin here: https://www.benjaminliar.com/Send us a textSupport the showPageChewing.comPAGECHEWING: Comics & Manga PodcastFilm Chewing PodcastSpeculative Speculations PodcastBuy me a coffeeLinktreeJoin Riverside.fm

In Episode Fifteen, DDSWTNP take on The Names, a Greece-based story of a strange “abecedarian” murder cult, a novel regarded by DeLillo as his turn toward more “serious” writing and placed at or near the top of many a reader's list of favorites. We discuss The Names as an examination of the “Depravities” and guilt of being an American in the complex late-1970s world of corporations, risk analysis, bank loans, and intelligence covers that narrator James Axton navigates, and we ask why The Names puts this geopolitical tumult (including the 1979 Iranian Revolution) in the context of ancient languages, ritual sacrifice, and a dissolving marriage and family life for James. Language-obsessed Owen Brademas (the archeologist and “epigraphist” who is drawn relentlessly to the fascinating cult) and filmmaker Frank Volterra (perhaps a sly satire of a certain American auteur?) figure in this story of religion, aesthetics, and the enduring appeal of violence, but we turn at the end of this episode to the nine-year-old author Tap, Axton's son, whose misspelled, highly spirited tale of the spirit to which his tongue might “yeeld” lets DeLillo showcase all the ways to use the alphabet to salutary and generative ends. #getwet #themindslittleinfinite We also announce the winner of our Amazons raffle and say thanks to all who have supported and continue to support us at buymeacoffee.com/delillopodcast. Texts mentioned and discussed in this episode: Burn, Stephen J. “‘A Paradigm for the Life of Consciousness': The Pale King.” David Foster Wallace and “The Long Thing”: New Essays on the Novels, ed. Marshall Boswell. New York: Bloomsbury, 2014. 149-168.  “Don DeLillo: The Art of Fiction CXXXV,” Interview with Adam Begley, The Paris Review 128 (1993): 274-306. “A Talk with Don DeLillo,” Interview with Robert Harris, in Thomas DePietro, ed., Conversations with Don DeLillo, University of Mississippi Press, 2005, 16-19. The Godfather (1972) and Apocalypse Now (1979), dir. Francis Ford Coppola. (We have the dates on both films slightly wrong in the episode.) Hearts of Darkness: A Filmmaker's Apocalypse (1991), dir. George Hickenlooper and Fax Bahr Viet Thanh Nguyen, The Sympathizer. Grove Press, 2015.

durée : 02:56:59 - Les Nuits de France Culture - Trois heures avec cette figure majeure de la littérature américaine qui s'est fait connaître avec sa "Trilogie new-yorkaise". Pour cet entretien réalisé entre Brooklyn et Paris, l'écrivain s'est entouré de nombreux amis : Jacques Dupin, Sophie Calle, Don DeLillo, Hubert Nyssen... - invités : Paul Auster Écrivain américain; Sophie Calle Artiste plasticienne française; Hubert Nyssen Fondateur des éditions Actes Sud; Jacques Dupin; Siri Hustvedt Écrivaine et essayiste; Don DeLillo Écrivain; Philippe Petit Funambule

In Episode Fourteen, DDSWTNP turn our attention for the first time to DeLillo's drama – and to a largely unknown work by DeLillo as playwright, a 1966 radio play and disturbing take on U.S. race relations titled Mother. We cover the circumstances of the play's original broadcasts, its re-emergence in an internet archive recording more than 50 years later, and the strange way in which this story's armchair progressives and Billie Holiday fans, Ralph and Sally, end up making a fetishizing travesty of civil rights and racial integration in the play's brief 27 minutes. Topics include the importance of radio to Mother's themes of media occlusion, moral numbness, and erasure; what DeLillo means by Ralph's “white malady” of transparency and how it reworks images from another Ralph's Invisible Man; and what this play has to do with contemporaneous issues like interracial marriage in Loving v. Virginia. We talk extensively as well about how Mother presages parts of the early novels, from jazz love in Americana to Taft in End Zone and Azarian in Great Jones Street. Before (and after) listening to our analysis, take in this troubling 27-minute play at https://archive.org/details/pra-BB3830.01 Our raffle for a hardcover Amazons has been extended to August 1 – donate and enter to win at https://buymeacoffee.com/delillopodcast Texts mentioned and discussed in this episode: James Baldwin, The Fire Next Time. Dial Press, 1963. Samuel Beckett, Endgame. 1957. Don DeLillo, The Mystery at the Middle of Ordinary Life. 2000.https://muse.jhu.edu/article/30660/pdf Ralph Ellison, Invisible Man. Random House, 1952. “The writer is driven by his conviction that some truths aren't arrived at so easily, that life is still full of mystery, that it might be better for you, Dear Reader, if you went back to the Living section of your newspaper because this is the dying section and you don't really want to be here.” (Thomas LeClair, “An Interview with Don DeLillo,” Contemporary Literature 23.1 (1982): 19-31) Eugene Ionesco, Rhinoceros. 1959. Mark Osteen. “Chronology.” In Don DeLillo, Three Novels of the 1980s. Library of America, 2022. Jean-Paul Sartre, No Exit. 1944.

Another big budget comedy that flopped super hard and was almost universally hated? Don't mind if we do. It's LAND OF THE LOST (2009)0:00 Intro2:04 Show & tell7:56 This week's movieLAND OF THE LOST DIRECTED BY: Brad SilberlingRELEASED: June 5, 2009STARRING: Will Ferrell, Anna Friel, Danny McBride, Jorma Taccone BUDGET: $100MBOX OFFICE: $68.8MEST. LOSS: $75MNEXT EPISODE: It's our first Cronenberg AND first Pattinson! We're doing the 2012 Don DeLillo adaptation COSMOPOLIS. 

We were joined by Kevin Kautzman and Brad Kelly from the Art of Darkness podcast for this episode! We talked about Point Omega, by Don DeLillo, a short, mysterious novel published in 2010. If you haven't listened to Art of Darkness, we highly, highly recommend you do.VERY IMPORTANT INFORMATIONhttps://artofdarkpod.com/If you ever cared about us, you'll send Art of Darkness your money: https://www.patreon.com/artofdarkpodJack has published a novel!Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Tower-Jack-BC-ebook/dp/B0CM5P9N9M/ref=monarch_sidesheetApple Books: http://books.apple.com/us/book/id6466733671Our Patreon: www.patreon.com/TheBookClubfromHellJack's website: www.jackbc.meJack's Substack: jackbc.substack.comLevi's website: www.levioutloud.comwww.thebookclubfromhell.comJoin our Discord (the best place to interact with us): discord.gg/ZMtDJ9HscrWatch us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0n7r1ZTpsUw5exoYxb4aKA/featuredX: @bookclubhell666Jack on X: @supersquat1Levi on X: @optimismlevi

Chapter 1What is 80In the book "80" by Damon Zahariades, we are taken on a journey through the powerful concept of focusing on the most important tasks in our lives. The main character, a young man named Alex, finds himself overwhelmed by the endless to-do lists and distractions that come with modern life. However, after stumbling across a book that discusses the idea of only focusing on the top 20% of tasks that will bring 80% of the results, Alex decides to give it a try. As he begins to implement this strategy in his daily life, he soon discovers a newfound sense of productivity and fulfillment. Through Alex's story, Zahariades teaches us the importance of prioritizing our time and energy on the tasks that truly matter, in order to create a more meaningful and fulfilling life.Chapter 2 Meet the Writer of 80Damon Zahariades uses precise language and a concise writing style to effectively convey the emotions and meanings of his book "80." Through his skillful use of words, he paints a vivid picture of the characters' experiences and emotions, allowing readers to connect with the story on a deep level. Zahariades masterfully crafts each sentence to evoke a specific emotion or convey a particular message, making his writing both engaging and impactful. His ability to distill complex ideas into clear, concise language ensures that readers are able to easily understand and connect with the themes and lessons explored in "80." By employing a concise writing style, Zahariades is able to deliver his message in a powerful and compelling way, leaving a lasting impact on his audience.Chapter 3 Deeper Understanding of 80The 1980s had a profound influence on literature, culture, and society, shaping the way people think and interact with each other. It was a decade marked by significant political and social upheaval, technological advancements, and cultural shifts.In literature, the 1980s saw the rise of postmodernism, a movement that challenged traditional narratives and storytelling techniques. Writers like Don DeLillo, Salman Rushdie, and Toni Morrison used experimental forms and perspectives to explore themes of identity, power, and the nature of reality. This era also saw the emergence of diverse voices in literature, with authors from marginalized communities gaining recognition and influencing mainstream literary trends.In terms of culture, the 1980s were characterized by a vibrant and eclectic mix of music, fashion, and art. The decade saw the rise of iconic musicians like Madonna, Michael Jackson, and Prince, who pushed the boundaries of popular music and inspired a generation of artists. Fashion trends of the 80s, such as neon colors, shoulder pads, and bold prints, continue to influence contemporary fashion designers and stylists. In art, the 80s saw the emergence of movements like Neo-Expressionism and the Pictures Generation, which challenged traditional artistic conventions and explored new ways of representing the world.The 1980s also had a significant impact on society, with key events like the fall of the Berlin Wall, the AIDS crisis, and the rise of neoliberalism reshaping global politics and economics. The decade witnessed the spread of consumer culture and the rise of technology, with advancements in personal computing and the birth of the internet revolutionizing communication and entertainment. These changes transformed the way people lived and interacted with each other, paving the way for the digital age we live in today.Overall, the influence and significance of the 1980s on literature, culture, and society cannot be understated. The decade sparked important conversations about identity, power, and social justice, and continues to shape the way we think about art, politics, and technology. Its legacy lives on in the work of contemporary writers, artists, and activists who draw inspiration...

SPECIAL SUMMER EPISODE: A Conversation w/ Ann Powers, author of Traveling: On the Path of Joni MitchellFor Part Two of our celebration of Joni Mitchell, the great ANN POWERS, esteemed rock writer and NPR music critic, joins Mark for a conversation about her brilliant new book Traveling: On the Path of Joni Mitchell. Topics include: the question of critical enthusiasm, Ann Beattie, Don DeLillo & Don Henley, Joni's plug into the pulse of the culture, Joan Didion and Play It As It Lays, Roberta Flack, Miles Davis, Art Nouveau and Don Juan's Reckless Daughter, Joni's evolving obsession with rhythm (and percussionists), Los Lobos, Chaka Khan, Prince's song for Joni, the Jazz Fusion scene of the mid-1970s, Jaco Pastorius, Brandi Carlisle and the Joni Jams, Taylor Swift and a celebration of the studio nerd, the underrated Larry Klein, Joni's relationship with the press, Joni's live performances, Michelle Mercer, and what moment in music Ann would travel in a time machine. Plus, a passionate reappraisal of Joni's four 1980s albums on Geffen Records and the value of meeting (and not!) your musical heroes. Special thank you to Dey Street Books and Mr. Brian Ulicky for his assistance with this conversation.Order Ann's book at your local independent bookstore here!

Ask literary critics to name the greatest American novelists of the past 50 years and Don DeLillo's name is sure to be there. DeLillo, now 87, has written more than 18 novels and has won awards ranging from the National Book Award and PEN/Faulkner Award to the Library of Congress Prize for American Fiction.   Discussing his career during this episode are Jesse Kavadlo and Aaron DeRosa, both members of the Don DeLillo Society. Kavadlo is also a professor of English and humanities and the director of the Center for Teaching and Learning at Maryville University of St. Louis, and DeRosa is also an assistant professor of 20th and 21st century American literature at California State Polytechnic University.  Learn more about Don DeLillo here: https://delillosociety.com/  Novelist Spotlight is produced and hosted by Mike Consol, author of “Lolita Firestone: A Supernatural Novel,” “Family Recipes: A Novel About Italian Culture, Catholic Guilt and the Culinary Crime of the Century” and “Hardwood: A Novel About College Basketball and Other Games Young Men Play.” Buy them on any major bookselling site. Write to Mike Consol at novelistspotlight@gmail.com. We hope you will subscribe and share the link with any family, friends or colleagues who might benefit from this program.

In Episode Thirteen, DDSWTNP follow the puck into the corners with Cleo Birdwell, first female NHL player and ostensible author of the farcical, sex-fueled, “intimate” memoir Amazons, the 1980 satire of a “pseudo-profound” America that DeLillo co-wrote with Sue Buck. Amazons is a sports novel with perhaps more interest in “strip Monopoly” than hockey, more investment by Cleo in her Badger Beagles youth softball team than the New York Rangers. We discuss how this odd book came to be, how it was marketed, how DeLillo never fully owned up to it, and its nevertheless surprising place in his career's development, a comedic lark and palate cleanser in which he makes significant moves toward the vision of White Noise. These include a disease called Jumping Frenchman, simulated death in the American home, and the character Murray Jay Siskind, seen here writing about athletes and a deeply corrupt snowmobile industry before becoming the Elvis scholar readers of the later novel know. In an episode with insights for those who have read this rare book and those who haven't, we show that Amazons, least-discussed of DeLillo's works, really should not be that! Support our work and enter the raffle to win a hardcover Amazons: buymeacoffee.com/delillopodcast Discussed in this episode: Gerald Howard, “The Puck Stopped Here” (2008)https://www.bookforum.com/print/1404/revisiting-cleo-birdwell-and-her-national-hockey-league-memoir-1406 David Marchese, “We All Live in Don DeLillo's World. He's Confused By It Too” (2020)https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/10/12/magazine/don-delillo-interview.htmlAn excerpt:You know who else shows up in two of your books? Murray Jay Siskind. Both times described as having an “Amish” beard. Murray Jay! Remind me, what book is he in?“White Noise.”And where else?“Amazons.”Oh god. How do you remember that? I don't remember that.I think I just got a scoop. I don't know if you've ever publicly acknowledged that you wrote “Amazons.”I probably did, somewhere or other. [Laughs.] Maybe to an interviewer from Thailand. Susan Sontag, “The Pornographic Imagination” (1967), in Styles of Radical Will (1969). Idries Shah: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idries_Shah Jumping Frenchmen of Maine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_Frenchmen_of_Maine

“If my college-age self, reading White Noise, had thought I would one day be discussing word placement with Don DeLillo, I would have had a heart attack,” Deborah Treisman says in this episode. Since those days, in her role as fiction editor at The New Yorker, she has indeed discussed word placement with Don DeLillo, whose stories include “Midnight in Dostoyevsky” and “The Itch.” Treisman has helped bring that kind of story to a wide audience—it's all part of her work at the center of one of the major institutions in the history of American fiction. In this episode, then, we talk about The New Yorker and other forces sustaining short stories. As unruly and unclassifiable as short stories can be, they often live in some august realms: in The New Yorker, for example, or major MFA programs. And elite organizations tend not to do well with unruliness or unclassifiability. But when it comes to short stories, the great achievements of literary institutions have come from the pursuit rather than restriction of short fiction's possibilities. Those possibilities are frequently found far from the publishing industry's hubs: Tayari Jones describes, for instance, how writers can do their best work by leaving the publishing capital of New York City for home, wherever it may be (Atlanta, in her case). Thriving U.S. institutions with a commitment to short stories all rely, in some way, on voices and tendencies beyond those institutions. The New Yorker, says the literary scholar Andrew Kahn, “for a long time has had a very, very diverse and interesting and jumbled-up catalog.” And the writer Justin Taylor says, of MFA programs, “the institutions are not the ivory towers they think they are. They're deeply reflective of the cultures that are producing them.”  Guests: Deborah Treisman, fiction editor at The New Yorker Tayari Jones, author of An American Marriage Becca Rothfeld, critic at The Washington Post and author of All Things Are Too Small Justin Taylor, author of Reboot Andrew Kahn, author of The Short Story: A Very Short Introduction Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In Episode Twelve, DDSWTNP interview Curt Gardner, creator and keeper of “Don DeLillo's America,” a prolific and comprehensive website that for nearly 30 years has been the go-to spot for information about DeLillo, from reviews, appearances, and novel publication histories to news of film adaptations and play performances. We cover Curt's stories of first discovering DeLillo in 1981, what he learned about the writing of Amazons at the Harry Ransom Center, and the letters he's exchanged with the man himself as he's built his site. We had a really fun time trading stories, insights, and interpretive connections with Curt. After listening to this in-depth interview, check out the riches of “Don DeLillo's America” at http://www.perival.com/delillo/delillo.html Support our work: https://buymeacoffee.com/delillopodcast Mentioned and discussed in this episode: Ant Farm, “The Eternal Frame” (1975):https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg1FCjvZ_jA DeLillo, Don. “Notes Toward a Definitive Meditation (By Someone Else) on the Novel ‘Americana.'” Epoch 21.3 (Spring 1972): 327-29. ---. “The Sightings.” Weekend Magazine (Toronto) 4 August 1979: 26-30.  ---. “Total Loss Weekend.” Sports Illustrated Nov. 27, 1972.https://web.archive.org/web/20090210115257/http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1086811/index.htm “Is cyberspace a thing within the world or is it the other way around? Which contains the other, and how can you tell for sure?” (Underworld) Game 6: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0425055/ LeClair, Thomas. “Missing Writers.” Horizon Oct. 1981: 48-52. 

Often hailed as the quintessential exemplum of Reagan-era postmodernism, Don DeLillo's eighth novel, White Noise (1985), is part academic satire, part media excoriation, and part exploration of the "simulacrum" or simulated feel of everyday life. With its absurdist asides on the iconicity of both Elvis and Hitler, the unrelenting stress of consumer choices (the supermarket is the site of modern neuroses), and the pharmacopic management of anxiety, the novel can sometimes feel a little smirky, a little too self-consciously zany, in its treatment of 1980s' suburban life. But readers interested in what DeLillo has to say about the emotional connections between husbands and wives and fathers and children will find a deeper, more somber effort to de-clutter the static of misinformation systems and chemical controls, whether in the blood or in the air, to forge organic bonds. To call White Noise the Babbitt of the "Greed is Good" era is no slight---DeLillo may have written better and more important books (including Libra, his treatment of the conspiracy theories surrounding the Kennedy assassination) but this is the novel that best captures the weird unease of the second-to-last decade of the twentieth century.    

Episodes Ten and Eleven: Running Dog (1 and 2) unpack DeLillo's frightening post-Vietnam War vision of a nation marked by pornographic personhood, corrupt politics, and an openness to fascistic fantasy, all centered on the quest for a rumored film of an orgy in Hitler's crumbling Berlin bunker. Pornographers and their well-armed henchmen, obsessive collectors of erotic art, and military men driven by profit saturate this narrative of New York and the Texas desert, while attempts to expose and subvert their cons by a journalist and a strangely spiritual intelligence agent reveal that all who resist these forces may end up mere lackeys and running dogs. DDSWTNP also draw clear links to U.S. politics in 2024, with orange make-up on a senator and a satire-proof dictator who dons the look of a clownish entertainer turning Running Dog, read now, into another of DeLillo's uncanny prophecies of an image-mad American culture's very grim potentials. #imperialistlackeys #thegreatdictator #hitlerhumanized #acourseindying In this episode we also announce your chance to support our podcasting work and contribute to our trip this year to DeLillo's huge archive at the Harry Ransom Center in Austin, Texas! If you enjoy this podcast we hope you'll support us at https://www.buymeacoffee.com/delillopodcast Texts and sites referred to in this episode: Mark Binelli, “Intensity of a Plot” (interview with Don DeLillo), Guernica, July 17, 2007. https://www.guernicamag.com/intensity_of_a_plot/ Don DeLillo, “Silhouette City: Hitler, Manson, and the Millennium.” Dimensions 4:3 (1989: 29-34. Rpt. In Mark Osteen, ed., White Noise: Text and Criticism (Penguin Books, 1998), 344-352. “Don DeLillo's America – A Don DeLillo Site”: http://perival.com/delillo/delillo.html Vince Passaro, “Dangerous Don DeLillo.” New York Times Magazine, May 19, 1991. https://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/magazine/dangerous-don-delillo.html

Episodes Ten and Eleven: Running Dog (1 and 2) unpack DeLillo's frightening post-Vietnam War vision of a nation marked by pornographic personhood, corrupt politics, and an openness to fascistic fantasy, all centered on the quest for a rumored film of an orgy in Hitler's crumbling Berlin bunker. Pornographers and their well-armed henchmen, obsessive collectors of erotic art, and military men driven by profit saturate this narrative of New York and the Texas desert, while attempts to expose and subvert their cons by a journalist and a strangely spiritual intelligence agent reveal that all who resist these forces may end up mere lackeys and running dogs. DDSWTNP also draw clear links to U.S. politics in 2024, with orange make-up on a senator and a satire-proof dictator who dons the look of a clownish entertainer turning Running Dog, read now, into another of DeLillo's uncanny prophecies of an image-mad American culture's very grim potentials. #imperialistlackeys #thegreatdictator #hitlerhumanized #acourseindying In this episode we also announce your chance to support our podcasting work and contribute to our trip this year to DeLillo's huge archive at the Harry Ransom Center in Austin, Texas! If you enjoy this podcast we hope you'll support us at https://www.buymeacoffee.com/delillopodcast Texts and sites referred to in this episode: Mark Binelli, “Intensity of a Plot” (interview with Don DeLillo), Guernica, July 17, 2007. https://www.guernicamag.com/intensity_of_a_plot/ Don DeLillo, “Silhouette City: Hitler, Manson, and the Millennium.” Dimensions 4:3 (1989: 29-34. Rpt. In Mark Osteen, ed., White Noise: Text and Criticism (Penguin Books, 1998), 344-352. “Don DeLillo's America – A Don DeLillo Site”: http://perival.com/delillo/delillo.html Vince Passaro, “Dangerous Don DeLillo.” New York Times Magazine, May 19, 1991. https://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/magazine/dangerous-don-delillo.html

In Episode Nine: Players, DDSWTNP follow the bored, hollow lives of Pammy and Lyle Wynant as they pursue “the glamour of revolutionary violence” and the hope for pastoral peace, taking them from the World Trade Center and New York Stock Exchange to a Maine island and a Toronto motel room. While at heart DeLillo's first major analysis of the mind of terrorism, Players is a surprisingly personal novel that unravels the form of the political thriller and shows him writing about sex and grim seduction in ways he did nowhere else. Our topics include terrorist intrigue and indoctrination, uncanny prophecies of 9/11, a JFK assassination conspiracy, the troubling immateriality of money, the psychology of suicide, and the pervasive power of fear. #mistersofteevoice #themovieandthemotel #terrorispurification #weknownothingelseabouthimReferences in this episode:Tom LeClair, In the Loop: Don DeLillo and the Systems Novel. U. of Illinois P., 1987.“I was sailing in Maine with two friends, and we put into a small harbor on Mt. Desert Island. And I was sitting on a railroad tie waiting to take a shower, and I had a glimpse of a street maybe fifty yards away and a sense of beautiful old houses and rows of elms and maples and a stillness and wistfulness—the street seemed to carry its own built-in longing. And I felt something, a pause, something opening up before me. It would be a month or two before I started writing the book and two or three years before I came up with the title Americana, but in fact it was all implicit in that moment—a moment in which nothing happened, nothing ostensibly changed, a moment in which I didn't see anything I hadn't seen before. But there was a pause in time, and I knew I had to write about a man who comes to a street like this or lives on a street like this. And whatever roads the novel eventually followed, I believe I maintained the idea of that quiet street if only as counterpoint, as lost innocence.”—“Don DeLillo: The Art of Fiction CXXXV,” Interview with Adam Begley, The Paris Review  128 (1993): 274-306.

In this episode, I speak with the political theorist Patrick Deneen about Don DeLillo's award winning novel, White Noise.  We explore the novel's undercurrents of existential angst in a world of distraction, amnesia, and unfulfilled longings. I hope you enjoy our conversation.

In this episode, I speak with the political theorist Patrick Deneen about Don DeLillo's award winning novel, White Noise.  We explore the novel's undercurrents of existential angst in a world of distraction, amnesia, and unfulfilled longings. I hope you enjoy our conversation. www.sacredandprofanelove.com

In 1817 and 1818, the discovery of two sets of Czech manuscripts helped fuel the Czech National Revival, as promoters of Czech nationalism trumpeted these centuries-old works as foundational texts of a national mythology. There was only one problem: they were completely forged. In this episode, Jacke talks to David Cooper about his new book, The Czech Manuscripts: Forgery, Translation, and National Myth, which looks at why people were so eager to fall for this hoax - and what happened when the truth was learned. PLUS Jesse Kavadlo, President of the Don DeLillo Society and editor of Don DeLillo in Context, discusses his choice for the last book he will ever read. Help support the show at patreon.com/literature or historyofliterature.com/donate. The History of Literature Podcast is a member of Lit Hub Radio and the Podglomerate Network. Learn more at www.thepodglomerate.com/historyofliterature. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In Episode Eight, DDSWTNP take in the wide range of DeLillo's corpus through passages chosen and recorded by listeners. Great renditions of DeLillo's many voices abound, from the sinister to the hilarious to the highly lyrical, and we offer our analysis of the language he brings to power, embodiment, and violence. His most popular novels, White Noise and Underworld, are well represented, but so too are some excellent, more obscure picks from Ratner's Star, Libra, The Body Artist, and more. Huge thanks to all those who celebrated DeLillo by reading and submitting a passage! #vegetoid #americansinourschools #uncollectedgarbagedistrict #bodywork #peace  Readers, texts, and page numbers in this episode: Americana: Andrew (36), Dave (134)End Zone: Donna (239)Ratner's Star: Jae (131)The Names: Robert (235), Mike (266)White Noise: Gavin (147), Andy (12), Mike (302), Matt (311)Libra: Matt (393)Underworld: Sam (41), Ben (785), Ursula (826)The Body Artist: Yonina (59)Cosmopolis: Matt (99)Point Omega: Raoul (28)“Human Moments in World War III” (The Angel Esmeralda): George (43)

On this week's episode, I have author Shelia Heti, book writer of Pure Color, Motherhood, Alphabetical Diaries, and many many more. We talk about how I discovered her writing and why Pure Color meant so much to me. She also explains her writing process and how she approaches a story. There is so much more.Show NotesSheila Heti Website: https://www.sheilaheti.com/Sheila Heti on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheila_HetiMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptSheila Heti:That's what I was thinking.Michael Jamin:It was work harder.Sheila Heti:I was like, I got to work harder than any other writer alive.Michael Jamin:And what did that work look like to you?Sheila Heti:Just always writing and always not being satisfied and being a real critic of my work and trying to make it better and trying to be more, try to get it to sound and more interesting and figure out what my sentences were and letting myself be bad and repeat myself until I got better. And I don't think that I ever let that go. I'm not sitting here today saying, I work harder than any other writer alive. I do remember having that feeling when I was young. That's what I need to do. That's the only wayMichael Jamin:You're listening to What the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.Michael Jamin:What the hell is Michael Jamin talking about today? Well, ladies and gentlemen, I'm talking about, honestly, one of the greatest, I feel, one of the greatest writers of my generation. Yep, yep. Her name is Sheila Hedy. She's the author of I guess 11 books, including Pure Color, although it's spelled with a U, the Canadian Way, a Garden of Creatures, motherhood, how Should a Person Be? And her forthcoming book, alphabetical Diaries. And she's just an amazing talent. So she's an author, but I don't describe her this way. And by the way, I'm going to talk about Sheila for about 59 minutes, and then at the end I'll let her get a word and then I'll probably cut her off. But I have to give her a good proper introduction. She's really, really that amazing of a writer. So author isn't really the right word. She really is, in my opinion, an artist who paints with words.And if you imagine going up to a Van Gogh painting, standing right up next to it, and then you see all these brushstrokes, and then you take a step back and you're like, okay, now I see the patterns of the brushstrokes. And you take a little step back, oh, the patterns form an image. Then another step back, you say, oh, that's a landscape. It really is like that with her writing. She has these images that she paints with words, and then they form bigger thoughts and you pull back and it's really amazing what she does and how she kind of reinvents herself with each piece. And so I'm so excited and honored she for you to join me here so I can really talk more about this with you. Thank you for coming.Sheila Heti:Yeah, thanks. That introduction made me so happy. Thank you for saying all that.Michael Jamin:Lemme tell you by the way, how I first discovered you. So I have a daughter, Lola, she's 20, she's a writer, and we trade. I write something we trade. It's really lovely that we get to talk about. And so she's off at school, but she left a book behind and I'm like, all right, what's this book she left behind? Because that way I can read it and we can talk about that, have our book club. And she left Pure Color. And I was like, oh, I like the cover, so I'll take a look at it. And what I didn't realize, it was the perfect book to discover you by because it's book about among other things, about a father's relationship with his daughter. So I text her, I say, I'm reading pure color. She goes, Sheila Hedy's, one of my favorite authors. If I could write anybody, it would be her. I'm like, all right, well, I got to continue reading this. And then a couple of days later, I get to the part and I send her a text. I say, you and me would make a great leaf. And she goes, that's my favorite part. The tree. That's my favorite part.You're also an interviewer. You've interviewed some amazing writers. Joan Didion, Margaret Atwood, big shots. And so I'm sure as an interviewer, you give a lot of thought to your first question. So I was trying to, I better give a lot of thought to my first question, and I kept coming back to the same one, which is pure color. It's such a big swing. If you were to pitch me this idea, you'd say, I'm going to write a book. It's about a father's relationship with his daughter, but it's also about a woman's unrequited love with her friend, but it's also about the soul and what it means to have a life. I'd say, I don't know, Sheila, that's kind of a big swing. I don't know about this, but you hit it out of the park, you did it. It was beautifully done. And so my first question is, you come up with an idea like this, where do you get the nerve to think that you can actually pull this off? This is really where do you get the nerve to think that, okay, I'm going to do this.Sheila Heti:The nerve.Michael Jamin:Well, it's such a big swing. It's like, how do you know you can do this? Do you know what I'm saying?Sheila Heti:Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I don't know that I could do it. So it's nice to hear. I mean, I don't think that you ever think you're going to be able to finish the book that you start, and then when you finish a book, you never think you're ever going to start a new one. That's sort of where I am right now. In that confused place. There's a part of it that always feels like, I dunno how to explain it. I mean, I don't know how to answer that question. It's a weird process. There's no process. There's no system to doing it, and then you hope you did it. You feel good and it feels done, but you dunno how you ever got there.Michael Jamin:And how do you know you arrived? How do you know when it's time to quit on something? And do you ever quit on something?Sheila Heti:Yeah. Yeah, A lot. A lot. But usually not like three or four years in, usually 60 pages in or something like that.Michael Jamin:60Sheila Heti:Pages is when you start thinking this is not working.Michael Jamin:Is it a gut feeling? How do you knowSheila Heti:Your curiosity runs out?Michael Jamin:Your curiosity runs out. Okay, so you get bored by it yourself?Sheila Heti:Yeah.Michael Jamin:Is that what you're saying?Sheila Heti:Yeah, it's just like, that was fun. That was nice. That was a good couple of weeks. I was really excited. I really thought this was going somewhere. And then it just ends. It's like a relationship. You think, oh, this is so great, I'm going to be with this person. And then after six months you're like,Michael Jamin:I was kidding myself. But you're writing. I have so much I want to say, it seems like you reinvent yourself with each piece. You know what I'm saying? It's like pure color is very, very different from how should a person be, which I was like, okay, I want to read this. I'm not sure how should a person be, which is extremely different from alphabetical diaries, which is almost like an experiment. And I wonder, do you get pushback from your agent or your publisher? Do they want you to do the same thing? We know it works.Sheila Heti:No, I think that at this point there's no expectation of that. When I wrote my second book, there was a feeling like that's not the first one. And there was some disappointment and the publisher said, this book doesn't count as your next book. In part, I think it was so different, but I think at this point that's, I mean, I've been publishing for 20 years. That's not really what people say to me anymore.Michael Jamin:Really? What do they say? They say, oh good, this is fresh. And it's more from you.Sheila Heti:No, I mean, I guess I changed publishers a lot more than other people do. So my publisher of motherhood didn't like pure color, so they rejected it. So I found a different publisher and the publisher of Tickner, my second book didn't like how should a person be? So I found a different publisher. So I think I move around a lot for that reason.Michael Jamin:Is that common with authors? You have to tell me all about this author thing? No, it's not really common.Sheila Heti:No. Usually you have one publisher and one editor and you just stick with them for a long time. SoMichael Jamin:It seems though you came up through the art. Alright, I have this idea of who you are from reading your books. You have, it's all very personal what you write and which makes it brave. It's brave for a couple of reasons. It's brave because you're being so vulnerable, you're putting yourself out there, but it's also brave. I feel like you're trying something new each time and that could fail. And so that to me is part of what makes your writing so exciting. But do you have any expectation when you're writing something which is so different, do you have an expectation of your reader how you want them to react?Sheila Heti:I mean, I want them to get to the end of the book. That's what I want. I want to draw them through, but I don't think I have a feeling like, oh, I want them to be sad on this page and I want them to be curious of this page and feel this way on this page. I just want them to be interested enough to get to the end. So how do I keep that momentum up and how some people conversation, they have long monologues, they're like a monologue, but I'm not because I'm always afraid people are going to lose interest. So I kind of feel like the same with my book. I'm always afraid that somebody's going to lose interest. So I'm always trying to keep it moving,Michael Jamin:But it's not an emotional reaction. I mean, your writing is very philosophical to me. When I'm reading your work, I feel like maybe this is my theory about what you have, and I'm sure it's not right, but it's that there are passages which I feel are so rich and so smart, and I have so much thought that I have to go back and read it again. So I'm wondering if that's what you're thinking. I want to write something that makes people have to read it again.Sheila Heti:No, I never think that because a very fast reader, and I don't reread passages and I don't read slowly. So for me, I'm always thinking that people are reading. I'm always imagining the person reading kind of fast,Michael Jamin:But thought. I mean some of them are really, some of your thoughts are very deep and very profound, and I'm like, I'm not sure if I understood all this. I got to read it again. I mean, don't you think? No.Sheila Heti:Yeah, I guess so. I don't know. I don't really think about that. I don't really think about the person, the reader in that way of like, are they going to have to read this again? Is this going to be hard for them to understand? I think my language is very straightforward. Yeah. I don't know how I think about the reader. I think of myself as the reader. So I'm really writing it so that I like every sentence. I like the way it turns. I like the pictures it makes.Michael Jamin:But when you say I want them to get to the end, what are you hoping they'll do at the end? Is there any hope or expectation?Sheila Heti:Well, I think especially in pure color, the end is really important. It kind of makes the whole book makes sense. And motherhood too, and maybe less how should a person be and less alphabetical diaries. But I think in some cases, a book, I'm somebody who doesn't always read books to the end. I like getting taste of different author's minds and so on. But I think in the case of some books, you have to read it to the end to really understand the whole, so that's in the case of pure color, why I wanted people to get to the endMichael Jamin:BecauseSheila Heti:It makes the beginning mean something different. If you've read.Michael Jamin:It does. I mean it is, and it's about processing grief. So do you outline when you come up with an idea, where do you begin?Sheila Heti:Well, with pure color, I thought I want to write a book about the history of art criticism. So I always start off really far away from where I end up. I always think that I want to write a book of nonfiction and I'm not a good nonfiction writer, so it always ends up being a novel. But I think I usually start off with an, well, in the case of this book, I also started off with this title that I had in my dream. The title was Critics Bayer, BARE. So I was thinking about art criticism and so on, but then I don't know, the books kind of take on their own direction. I never really understood when people said that they had characters that sort of did things that they didn't expect. But I feel like that is true sometimes of the book as a whole. It moves in a direction I didn't expect, so I couldn't outline.Michael Jamin:You don't outline all. And so does it require you to discover what the story is then once you find it, toss out the stuff that's not the story orSheila Heti:Yeah, I basically write way too much and then just cut and try to find the story and move things in different orders and try to find the plot after. I've written a ton of stuff already,Michael Jamin:Because I know from reading, you come from the art world, you're an artist and I think you hang out with artists, people, so you talk about what art is, is that right or no, do not shatter what I think of now. That's not itSheila Heti:Mean and relationships and all that kind ofMichael Jamin:Stuff and relationships. Because I mean, I don't know, it seems like that's why I say you're an artist. You have these conversations even about what art is. And do you draw inspiration from paintings when you approach?Sheila Heti:Yeah, I'm interested in the book as art. I think more than storytelling. I'm interested in the book as sort of an experience that you're undergoing in different way from just the experience of being told a story. I don't think that I'm so interested probably in the things that a lot of other novelists are interested in, character and plot and conflict and all those things.Michael Jamin:Well, it's really, I've heard you say this, it's really, you're writing various forms of you and it's very personal and very intimate. But you also made the distinction in something I read where there's Sheila, the author, then there's Sheila, the character. Is that right?Sheila Heti:Yeah. I mean, in two of the books there's kind of a character that sort of stands in a way for me, but it never really, it doesn't feel like a direct transcription of myself or my life or my thoughts. There's always this feeling of maybe it's like how actors are, there's a part of yourself that goes into the character and there's other parts of yourself that are left out.Michael Jamin:And so I was going to say, is there stuff about you that you leave out, for example? I mean, how should a person be? Or alphabetical diaries, it feels like we're talking about you, right?Sheila Heti:Yeah. Well, how should a person be felt? A lot like a character pretty, I was thinking about Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan. This was like 2005, and Britney Spears and these kind of women in culture that were bad girls and doing things sort of the subject of so much attention and so narcissistic or considered Narcissistic and the Hills, which was a show that I really loved. And sort of thinking about this character in the book being a voice that was somewhere between me and those girls. So there was this, this layering on of personalities, which I'm not thinking about. What does it mean to try to be a celebrity? What does it mean to be one? To be looked at, to idolize oneself? Those are my diaries. So there wasn't a sense of a character in the same way, but because the sentences are separated from one another, I guess it's like I don't feel like I'm telling anybody anything about my life. There's no anecdote in there.Michael Jamin:But I see that's the thing. And we'll just talk about alphabetical diaries because you're telling with such an, let me tell people what it's, so it's basically an ordinary diary is chronological. This is what I did today and this is tomorrow, whatever. But you grouped your diary by the first letter of each sentence, which organized, and this is again, another high degree of difficulty. This could have easily been gimmicky, but it was a rethinking of what a diary is. And when I say patterns emerge, so for example, when you get to D, these was do not whatever or do this or that. So you hear, okay, so here's a person creating rules for themselves. And then an E was even though, so now they're creating rules, but creating exceptions for these rules, making allowances. And so what you have is, and was so interesting about it, many of these thoughts were contradictory.So you're painting a picture of this person, but in one sentence, okay, maybe she's dating this guy. And the next sentence, this other guy, I'm like, well, what's going on here? Then I realize, oh, this is not chronological. And so I'm getting a complete picture of this person, which is so interesting, but, so I know who I guess know who you are, but I don't know who you are today. I know who you are as this arching thing in your life, which is so fricking interesting. And that was where the thought process going into this,Sheila Heti:Yeah, mean. So it's like 10 years of diaries and I put it into Excel and the a z function. So it's completely alphabetical first letter of the sentence and then the second letter and the third letter. And it was just, I mean, I guess I wanted to see exactly that. What happens if you look at yourself in that way? Do you see patterns? Do you understand yourself in a different way? Not narratively, but as a collection of themes or Yeah, exactly. That a scientific or sort of a cross section of yourself.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Sheila Heti:And it worked that way. I think with the diaries, what you do see is, oh, there are sort of these recurring thoughts and these recurring themes and these recurring ways of perceiving the world and perceiving yourself that persists over 10 years. That actually the one self, you think of yourself as this thing that's constantly changing through time and especially a diary gives you that feeling, but then when you do it alphabetical, the self looks like a really static kind of thing in way, no, I'm actually just these few little bubbles of concerns that don't change,Michael Jamin:That keep recurring when, by the way, when people say everything's been done before everything's been written, it's like, well, you haven't read Sheila Heady. Start reading hers. This is different. This why's so interesting about, that's why I think you're such an amazing writer, and it totally worked. Totally. You get a picture of this person and the recurring themes and recurring worries and, and even one of them, some things that struck me, there was one passage where it's like you go into a bookstore and you're like, isn't this also novels? Isn't it also unimportant? And I'm like, no, if it was, you wouldn't be doing this. So this was just a thought that you had at one point. It's not how you feel. It's how you felt at this one moment, right?Sheila Heti:Yeah, yeah. Literary fiction. Yeah. Like what a little tiny thing that is.Michael Jamin:But when people, okay, so now we have this picture of you and when you go do, let's say book signings or whatever, and people come up to you, they must have a parasocial relationship with you where they feel they know you. Your writing is so intimate. And what's your response to that?Sheila Heti:I think that's nice. I mean, I think that that's kind of the feeling you want people to have is it is your soul or your mind or whatever that you're trying to give people. And so if somebody feels that they know you well, in a certain sense they do. I mean, obviously not that well, they knowMichael Jamin:What you share, but there's, okay, I don't know what kind of music you like. I've read to all this stuff, but I know your insecurities and fears, but I don't know what you think is funny. I don't know what music you like. There's stuff you held back.Sheila Heti:Yeah, absolutely. But I think that's like, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. People aren't really very weird with me. Ed books or things, people are just pretty nice. And I never get this. I, I've rarely had interactions that feel creepy or weird or presumptuous or any of those things.Michael Jamin:Well, I'm not even going even that far, but they feel like they must feel like they know you certainly, but they know what you share. They know as much as you share. Right?Sheila Heti:TheseMichael Jamin:Kind of brave, bold decisions you make to create all this stuff. Is there a writer whose work you emulated in the beginning? Where do you begin to come up with this stuff? Was there someone who you wanted to write? Just like,Sheila Heti:I mean, I really loved Dostoevsky and Kafka and the heavy hitters. Yeah, I mean, I just loved all the greatest writers,Michael Jamin:But did you want to write like them?Sheila Heti:No, I mean, I think the closest I ever felt like I wanted to write a writer was, do you know Jane Bowles? BOW Elliot? She was married to Paul Bulls.Michael Jamin:No, to me, much of your work felt a little bit like it. Tall Cals, some of it works. Some of it was very ethereal and meditative.Sheila Heti:Yeah, I mean, I think Jane Bowles was the only one that I really felt myself imitating her sentences. She wrote a book called Two Serious Ladies, which I still really love. That was the only time when I felt like I was falling into somebody else's cadences and rhythms and so on. AndMichael Jamin:What happened whenSheila Heti:That was with my first book, the Middle Stories, and then the second book was written was so different. The second book I wrote was in such a different style that left me, but maybe there's still a way in which I still do. I think she's probably the writer that I write the most, if anyone. But I mean, she only wrote one book. So it's a very different kind of life than the one that I've had. No, I'm just always just trying to keep myself interested. So I think that I don't ever want to, I a very, I just want it to be fun for me. And so if I was to write the same book again, it wouldn't be fun. And books take five years to Write, or this diary book took more than 10 years to edit. So by the time I'm done a book, no, I'm such a different person than I was in some way when I started, even though I just said that you don't really change, but there's a way in which you get tired of thinking about the same things over,Michael Jamin:But then you think it would be hard to not constantly tinker with it. Isn't that part of the problem?Sheila Heti:I like constantly tinkering with it. That's fun.Michael Jamin:But then you have to let go. But how do you let go of it though?Sheila Heti:Well, at a certain point you start making it worse. You're like, oh, I think I'm starting to make it worse. You start to become self-conscious, and then you start to want to correct it, and then you start to want it to sort of be the person that you are today rather than the person you were five years ago. But you've got to honor the person that was five years ago that started the book. So you can't carry it on so far that you become, you've changed so much that now you're a critic of the book that's going to destroy the book.Michael Jamin:Yeah. See, that's so interesting. That's something I think about quite a bit. Yeah. How do I just let it go? And that someone else, it's funny when you talk about the language, because that's one thing that struck me about pure color. Your sentences are written in very, they're very, it's kind of brief, very, I dunno what the best way to describe it, but it's almost terse. And to be honest, if you had told, as I'm reading this, I could have thought this was said 150 years ago, and then occasionally you say you make a reference to something modern Google, and I'm like, oh, wait a minute, this takes space today. So that was a conscious, obviously decision that you made to kind of give it a timelessness.Sheila Heti:Yeah, I always kind of want that because I think that's my hope for a book is that it could be understood in a hundred years or 500 years, or you need Plato today, you want to write something that people could understand in a thousand years.Michael Jamin:But you know what I'm saying, the language, it almost felt, but your language is different though, in an alphabetical diary. Well, obviously since it's a diary, but man, so to me it's like you're not doing, like I said, you're not doing the same thing. I don't know, it could have been two different authors. That's what I'm saying. I guess it felt like two very different pieces and it was just wonderful. But when you say, so what then? Because like I said, you have these art friends, I have this whole life for you, you have these because you went to art, you studied art, and you hang out with a bunch of artists and you talk about art, and I want to know what these conversations are because we don't talk about art and TV writing. No one, we don't think we're doing art, but I feel like that's what you guys are doing. So do you talk about what the whole point of art is?Sheila Heti:I think I did when I was younger,Michael Jamin:Right? Then you grewSheila Heti:Out of it when I was in my twenties. And then you kind of figure that out for yourself in some way. Well, then you have your crises and whatever, and then you got to think about it and talk about it again. But no, I think these days what I talk about with my friends is just whatever the specific project is, whatever problems you're having with a specific thing, mostly complaining, the difficulty of not being able to pull it off or feeling like you are stuck or you're never going to be able to write it. I have these three other writers that I share my work with we're meeting tomorrow. So before I got on the call with you, I just sent something off to them, and tomorrow we're just going to have read each other's things and talk about how we feel about it. But for me, I'm just like, I think what I need at this point from them is reassurance, honestly.Michael Jamin:Reassurance,Sheila Heti:Yeah. Because you're so lost in the middle and you don't know what you're communicating and if you're communicating anything, and is it worth continuing? Should it just all be thrown out? There's so much doubtMichael Jamin:Because it's so very humble of you. You're a master writer, and yet you make it sound like you're still a student. You know what I'm saying?Sheila Heti:I mean, you think, I don't know if it's the same for you, but don't you think you're always kind of a student? BecauseMichael Jamin:Whenever you start, yeah, yeah. Look, yes. When every time you're looking at that blank page, I dunno how to do any of this.Sheila Heti:Yeah, exactly. You always feel like you're back at square one somehow.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Sheila Heti:Although now, not exactly square one. I've been starting this new book this week, and again, it may get to 60 pages and fall away from me, but now I have a different feeling that I had when I was in my early twenties. The feeling I have now is like, oh, I did that. Oh, I've had that thought before. Oh, I've written senses in that way before. What I'm trying to do now is none of the things that I've already done. They just, and so, yeah, where is this part of myself that I haven't written from yet? So that's kind where I'm now. So it's not really starting from square one, but it's still just as hard,Michael Jamin:Right? Because you feel like you've said everything you had to say or done everything you wanted. Is that what it is? Or,Sheila Heti:I know what my sentences sound like, so I feel like, oh, I'm not surprised by that sentence. That sounds like a sentence that my, I feel like I'm, you get this rhythm that is very pleasurable to write if the sentences have a rhythm, but now I'm just like, I'm tired of that rhythm. That rhythm can only give me one kind of sentence or one kind of thought. So I'm trying to figure out what else is there inside.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I imagine that's hard for someone. Basically, you're a physician who's made a hit and another hit, and what if I don't do it again? How do I do it differently? Or how do I reinvent myself now?Sheila Heti:And even just what's the meaning in this for me now? With every book, there's a different phase of life you're at. And I'm 46 now, so I dunno how old you are.Michael Jamin:How dare you? I'm 53.Sheila Heti:Yeah, I figured you were just a few years older than me. So it's a very different age to write from because you are not hungry in the same way you were when you were 23 and you were both in houses. You have accomplished certain things. And so what's the deepest part of yourself that still needs to do this when you're 23? Every part of yourself needs to do it in this extreme way. You've got to make a life for yourself. You've got to prove to yourself, you can do it. You've got to make money, you've got to all this kind of stuff. So what's the place at 46 or 53 that you're writing from that is just as vital and urgent as that place at 23?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I think actually that's why I started changing mediums. I've kind of done this headcount thing. What else can I do?Sheila Heti:So the essay, the podcast? Yeah.Michael Jamin:Well, most of the essays, the essay started the whole thing. It was like, it's funny, in your book or a couple of times, you mentioned, should I go to LA? And I'm thinking, why does she want to go to la? What was that about? What'sSheila Heti:That about? I've got family there. When I was a little kid, my parents used to put me on a plane. I was five years old and I'd be sent to LA and I had relatives and I would stay with them. And it was just, to me, it's such happy childhood memories and I just love Los Angeles. Whenever I go back, I think this is a place in the world besides Toronto that I'd most like to live.Michael Jamin:Really? So different.Sheila Heti:Yeah. I just love it. Yeah, so I love everything. I love it.Michael Jamin:Oh my God, I don't what, I've been to Toronto. I had, well, then ISheila Heti:Remember that LA's in America, and then I like, no, maybe not.Michael Jamin:Yeah, good point. Good point. So there's something else. I remember what I wanted, what I want to say. You had in one book, it was like, you're lamenting. I hope I never have to teach. And now you're teaching, right?Sheila Heti:Yeah, just for this one year.Michael Jamin:Okay. What was that about that decision?Sheila Heti:Well, I love teaching and I wanted the money because I didn't want to have to feel like I had to rush to start a new book. So I just wanted a year where I didn't have to have that anxiety of what's my next book going to be like, I've got to start. I've got to get a certain ways in and then sell it. And I like teaching a lot, and I just felt excited about the idea, but it was supposed to be a two year position, and now I've just changed it to a one year position. It becomes too much, even one day. And teaching a week is like, there's no point to writeMichael Jamin:Because you have to read all the whatever they write on the side. You're saying, well,Sheila Heti:I've got to commute two hours to get there, and then two hours home, and then, I don't know. And then your brain just sort of stays in that university space with your students for three or four days, and then you have two days where you're not with them and then you go back to school.Michael Jamin:So what does your life really look like? Your writing life? What is it like to be an author on a dayday basis?Sheila Heti:What your life is all day long? You're either writing emails or you're writing writing. Probably spend more time writing emails and doing correspondence and businessy stuff than writing. Writing, and then all the life stuff, walking the dog, doing household chores. I don't have a very regimented existence, but I just sitting in bed and being on my computer, that's sort of myMichael Jamin:Favorite. That's where you write on laptop. Oh my God, my back would kill me. But something else you said, because I really was turning to you for answers as I was reading it. I'm like, she's got the answers. And you said, and you're like, I don't have the answers, but no, I'm like, no, she's got the answers. And you said, art must have at one point, art must have humor. I think you said that in How should a person be? And I was like, really? That's what you guys think. There has to be humor in art.Sheila Heti:Oh yeah. You got to know where the funny is. Yeah, I think,Michael Jamin:Sure. I don'tSheila Heti:Understand. It's the two. I read your essay. It was very funny.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But thank you. But I have an intention. I have an intention when I write, but I don't understand why you think there has to be humor. Alright. Why do you think there has to be humor it in art?Sheila Heti:Humor's such a part of life. I mean, if you don't have humor in life or art, you're missing a huge part of the picture. I mean, it's all, it's just the absurdity of being a human. It's,Michael Jamin:Well, see the thing as a sitcom writer, look, I'm grateful to have made a living as a sitcom writer. It's what I wanted to do, but it's not like anyone looks at what we do. It's like, oh, that's high art. They go, it's kind of mostly, people think it's kind of base. And I think, and when you think about even at the Oscars, when they're fitting the best picture, it's never a comedy. It's that the comedies are not important enough. And so that's why I had this feeling like, well, can humor be an art? Can it be, ISheila Heti:Mean, I think great art always has humor in it, but it's the same thing in literature. The funny writers are not as respected as the serious ones, but I think that they're wrong. I mean, Kurt Vonnegut, I love Kurt Vonnegut. He's extremely funny, but he's never had the same status as somebody like, I dunno, Don DeLillo or whatever, because he's not serious enough. But I think it's a very, who are the people that are making that judgment? That the solemn writers that have no humor are the best writers. They're just idiots. I mean, it's not the case.Michael Jamin:I gave my manuscript to one publisher. I was rejected from him, and he wrote, he was very kind. He goes, oh, this book really works. I like it, but it's not high literature. And we do high literature here. And I was like, how dare you? I was like, well, I totally agree. It's not high literature. Not that I could write high literature, but I didn't set out to do. But there was still that sting of what you're doing is not important because it's funny.Sheila Heti:Yeah. That's a stupid editor.Michael Jamin:Well, he got the last laugh. Wait a minute, wait a minute. But yeah, I don't know. Okay. But is humor in painting and humor in all art? I mean,Sheila Heti:Yeah, levity. Well, just that scent, that aspect of life. That is the laugh that is that bubbling up laughing. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's joy. Joy and humor are very closely connected. And a work of art without humor is a work of art without joyMichael Jamin:AndSheila Heti:Wants to take that in.Michael Jamin:Then what is art? I'm honest here. You learned this when you're 20 and I haven't learned it yet. So what is art to you and what's the difference between good art and bad art?Sheila Heti:It's a reflection of the human experience. It's like an expression of what it feels like to be a human, that a human is making for another human.Michael Jamin:Okay, so it's this interpretation of what you feel, what it means to be human, is that right?Sheila Heti:It's an expression of what you feel like it means to be human.Michael Jamin:Right. Okay. And then how do youSheila Heti:That in an object?Michael Jamin:And then how do you know if it's good art or bad art?Sheila Heti:I mean, there's no consensus, right? You liked pure color, but a lot of people don't. There's just no consensus because it touched you, but somebody else thinks it's the worst book they've ever read, and that's okay. I mean, I think that that's right. We can't all speak to each other. We're not all here for all of each other.Michael Jamin:Oh, just because you mentioned that it was so touching this one moment, it really hit me where you explain how you felt the father, how his love for his daughter was so much that it put pressure on her not to have her life because her life was so important to him. And I thought, oh crap, I hope I'm not doing that because my feeling is no, it's just pure love. It's an expression of pure love. But from the other side, I can see that.Sheila Heti:Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's what I was thinking about in that book. That's the sort of tragedy ofMichael Jamin:Yes,Sheila Heti:Families and friendships and so on, that we want to love each other, but we can't in the way that we want to.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content, and I know you do because you're listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com. And now back to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about?Michael Jamin:It was just so beautiful to express that as two souls stuck in a leaf, where is this coming from? It felt completely appropriate, but also almost out of the blue. And that's what was so amazing about that whole section. Thanks.Sheila Heti:Yeah. I don't even remember where that idea came to me. I don't know if you feel like this with your writing, but sometimes you remember exactly where an idea came from. You can even picture yourself being right there having it, and sometimes you almost have anesia around it,Michael Jamin:Really? And what about the part? There was so many lovely moments of this woman working in a lamp store, and she has to turn the lamps on every single lamp on, and it's almost like, I got to do this, but there's her counterpart who has to turn the lamps off at the end of the day, something equally horrible. It was really funny, and it was just, I don't know. Did you ever work in a lamp store?Sheila Heti:No. No. But there was this lamp store that I used to pass on the way to one of my first jobs, and I would look in the window, and I did eventually buy a lamp from that store with all the money I had in the world. But I never worked in a lamp store, but I was obsessed with this lamp. I really thought it was going to change my life.Michael Jamin:And do you still have it?Sheila Heti:No. It got broken in aMichael Jamin:Fit ofSheila Heti:Rage situation. Yeah, it got broken rage.Michael Jamin:I was stuck on a paragraph I wrote against this important list. ItSheila Heti:Was in the box on the floor, and somebody stepped on it. And anyway, it's sad, but whatever.Michael Jamin:Okay. But alright. So much of it felt like, yeah. Okay. So it was a version of you that wasn't exactly, but where was this coming from? You said you had a point you were making. I don't rememberSheila Heti:Where, because at some parts you remember where they came from and some parts you justMichael Jamin:Kind of pull out of, pullSheila Heti:Out of. You don't remember how they came about?Michael Jamin:Yeah. I don't know. I always feel like when I'm writing, if there's an idea that has a strong emotional reaction, like, okay, maybe there's something there.Sheila Heti:A strong emotional reaction in you.Michael Jamin:Yeah. In me. I have a terrible memory, but if I remember something, why do I remember it? There must be a reason.Sheila Heti:You have a terrible memory too,Michael Jamin:And you wouldn't know it, but I guess you document everything in your diary.Sheila Heti:I mean, the diary is usually not about things that happened. It's more about the feelings that I'm having in the moment that I'm writing it. I wish that my diary was more about things that happenedMichael Jamin:Really Well, you get to decide what you put in your diary.Sheila Heti:I know usually when one writes a diary, it's because you're in a moment of high emotion that you need to get your feelings out.Michael Jamin:Do you write every day in your diary?Sheila Heti:No. No, no. Just when I need to. And I don't even really do it anymore now.Michael Jamin:Interesting. Yeah, there is. There's something else you said about it. Yeah. There's so many moments that were so interesting. Like you said at one point that the men you date don't understand you. I'm like, well, don't they read your book? I mean, why don't you just give 'em your book and didn't understand you?Sheila Heti:No, I mean, I don't know.Michael Jamin:You don't know. We'll get back to, I don'tSheila Heti:Even think that it's really all Yeah, like you were saying earlier, it's not really you. It's just an expression of a corner of you.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I don't know. But do you really feel that? I mean, I'm going back and forth. You'll see I contradict myself, but what you write is so to me, it feels so personal. I don't know how it cannot be you.Sheila Heti:I mean, I don't know. When I'm working on it, it doesn't feel like me. It just feels like writing on a page. It feels very plastic. I don't feel like it's me.Michael Jamin:So there's no, wow, because there's no inhibition there because it's very intimate. There's no inhibition. You don't feel to be judged. This is just a character named Sheila, by the way.Sheila Heti:I mean, I just don't think about it. Just I have this, that part of my brain is not awake when I'm editing or writing that people that are going to think it's meMichael Jamin:Or whatever. Well, that's bold. That really is bold because the notion that you're not worried about being judged, you're not worrying about expressingSheila Heti:Yourself. I worry about being judged for an email that I send. That's a stupid email much more than I ever worry about a book.Michael Jamin:Really? Really? Yeah. Your book is permanent and it's your art.Sheila Heti:But I have so much control over it. I have so much. I take so much time with it. It's not spontaneous. It's really thought through. So I'm not, and it's art. It's not me. An email is me. A book is not, it's its own thing.Michael Jamin:Okay. How should a person be? I mean, this to me felt like this is your struggle. It was really interesting when it was a narrative struggle about a woman trying to find herself in a brief period of time. And I felt like, no, this is you. Right?Sheila Heti:I mean, it doesn't really feel like that. No.Michael Jamin:Alright. This interview's over. That's why I think when I said, you're brave, I think that's what makes you brave, is that this fearlessness of I can put it out there and I'm not really worried about it.Sheila Heti:Yeah. I just don't care. I care about being judged as a human in the world, as a person, but not through my books, not through your I care about it and Oh, she's wearing a really stupid outfit. I care about it in all those ways that everybody does, but not via the books. Not as the books as a portal to judgment about me.Michael Jamin:Wow. Wow. I I don't know if you know how profound that is. To me. It really is. Yeah, because it gives you so much freedom to write then.Sheila Heti:Yeah. I mean, but fiction is different from essays. I think with essays you do feel like it's you, but with novels you don't. Or I don't,Michael Jamin:Yeah. But I guess, and I didn't really know this term, it's auto nonfiction, which I guess is this term. I was not familiar withSheila Heti:Auto fiction. They call itMichael Jamin:Auto fiction. That's what I meant. Auto fiction. Yeah. And soSheila Heti:I like auto nonfiction though. I think that's how it should start to be called.Michael Jamin:Really? Yeah. Just by my dumbest. Yeah. But when you call it auto itself, so I don't know.Sheila Heti:Yeah, I didn't give it that term. The critics give it that term, auto fiction, but all writing is auto fiction. All writing comes from yourself. It's a really silly term, but I mean, they guess they use it for people that write characters that have their name. Which again, that's only, and how should a person be? Does the character have my name? None of the other books.Michael Jamin:Well, okay, but Well, theSheila Heti:Diaries, obviouslyMichael Jamin:The diaries, but also I also know that pure color was taken from your life. I mean, we know that inSheila Heti:A lot ofMichael Jamin:Ways. So I also want to know about this, and I know I'm concentrating on how should person, well, on both of 'em I guess. But this play that you were commissioned to write, how does that work that you were tortured by throughout the whole book? You felt like you couldn't come up with anything good. How does that come about? So a local theater said, will you write us a play?Sheila Heti:Yeah, yeah.Michael Jamin:And it was their idea.Sheila Heti:Yeah. Yeah. They commissioned a play for me,Michael Jamin:But they said, I mean, this is what we want it to be about. Or they said right aboutSheila Heti:It was a feminist theater company, and they said it could be about anything as long as it was about women in it. And I really had the hardest time. I mean, I wrote a play, I'm sure you experienced this in Hollywood, and then there was a lot of notes. And in theater we call it dramaturgy. And I got so confused and I just couldn't make the play better from the notes. And it was just this torture, because when you're writing a book, or at least in my case, editors aren't like that. They're not giving you their notes to make the book something other than what you want it to be. But in theater, what's this character's motivation? Why does this happen here? There was just so much feedback and I just lost my sense of what I liked about it and what it was.Michael Jamin:And then how did you find it ultimately? You were happy with it, weren't you?Sheila Heti:Ultimately, I just, when it got put on a couple years after, how should a person be was published, it was just my original draft. So I never ended up editing it according to any of the notes in the end.Michael Jamin:Wow. So you won that battle?Sheila Heti:I guess so you did. It wasn't them who put it on. It was some other, some kid.Michael Jamin:Oh,Sheila Heti:I mean, he's not a kid anymore, but he seemed like a kid at the time.Michael Jamin:But you also do something called trampoline hall, which struck me as really fun. It seems like you're just part of this artwork. You make art. Well, I don't care what it is. Let's just do something weird and interesting until trampoline hall, which I love the premise of it's you say people deliver lectures on subjects they don't know anything about.Sheila Heti:Is that what it's, it's not their area of professional expertise. So they can do, oh,Michael Jamin:So they are experts.Sheila Heti:They can do research for their talk. It's just that it can't be their professional expertise.Michael Jamin:So they're not talking out of the rests. They're talking to about if they know No. Oh, okay.Sheila Heti:They do the research. Yeah. And then there's, so the talk lasts about 15 minutes, and then there's a q and a, and then So there's three of those and night, and yeah, it's been running once a month in Toronto since December, 2000 or 2001. Them. I haven't been involved in it. You them? Oh, no, no. I mean, I started it, and my friend Misha Goberman is and was the host, but after about three or four years, I left around 2005 or so. But he still keeps it going. So now I used to pick the three people every month, and I just used to, when I was in my twenties, I had crushes on people all the time. And it was fascinated by people in such a way that it was a way of having these friendships where I would go out with them and talk about what their talk was going to be about, and then I'd see them on stage.And it was just a way of being with people. My life is not really like that anymore, where I'm coming into contact with so many people that I just have to have a show and put them on stage. I find 'em so fascinating. And the culture's changed because again, in the early two thousands, there weren't, the internet wasn't what it is. And I just felt like there's all these smart people with all these interesting things to say, and nobody's paying any attention to them. And here's a venue for them. You obviously don't need that, a barroom lecture series for people to have a voice in this culture anymore. Yeah,Michael Jamin:Right. That's right. Now you deal with students, young people. And so what's your take then, as an artist, as you deal with people of this younger generation? What do you see?Sheila Heti:I don't know. I mean, I only see them through a very narrow lens. You don't show your teacher that much of your life. I see them sitting in a classroom for two and a half hours once a week. I've only done it for seven weeks.Michael Jamin:But you read their work or you pretend to?Sheila Heti:I read it. There's not that much. I mean, I don't know. You can't really generalize about a generation. Every person's different.Michael Jamin:One of the stories in my book is about that. It was about me trying to, being in a creative writing class, trying to impress my teacher, and just having no idea how to write, just none. And feeling complete. You're smiling. You can relate or you see it.Sheila Heti:Well, because I'm smiling, because yeah, that's how people feel. And it's sort of a failure of the way that creative writing is taught that makes a person feel like they can't writeMichael Jamin:Well. Okay. So what's the first thing you tell? What's the most important thing you tell your students then maybe?Sheila Heti:Well, I try to show them all these examples of, so-called bad writing and stuff that's intentionally boring and that's badly put together because I just think it's a better route. You're more likely to become a good writer if you are trying to do something bad than if you're trying to do something good. If you're reading the greatest writers and you're trying to emulate them, and you're all intimidated and blocked and nervous, and you're trying to write in a style that has nothing to do with yourself.Michael Jamin:So then how does showing them something bad help? Do you say, go ahead and write or write. What's the point of showing them somethingSheila Heti:Bad? I don't want 'em to try to write. WellMichael Jamin:Write Well, you don't, but you don't want 'em to write schlocky or poorly written stuff either.Sheila Heti:I'd rather have them write basic. I don't know. I just think when you're trying to impress, when you're writing to try to impress somebody, it's just you're starting off on completely the wrong foot. I want them their writing. So for example, in this class, one of the first experiments we did was I told them to go into their messages, their text messages, threads, and to copy out every single text message that they'd sent and put that in a document and make it a long sort of monologue, because that is actually what they write. That is what they're writing. You got to start from what you're actually saying and what you're actually writing, not this imaginary idea of what writing is.Michael Jamin:Right, right, right. That's exactly right. So there's this thought of what writing should be and what writing, how get, I guess, how did you get over that, especially when you were writing your favorite authors were the greats. How did you find the confidence to have your own voice, I guess?Sheila Heti:Well, when I was young, when I was a teenager, I read all the Paris Review interviews, and I just got the sense like, oh, there's no way to do it no one way. Everyone has their own way. Faulkner has his way, and Dorothy Parker has her way, and John au has his way, and there's just no consensus. And so you just have to figure out your own way. That's what they all did. I just sort of saw that's what each one of them had done.Michael Jamin:See, that's where I struggled with, and you're getting my therapist now and my creative writing teacher when I was starting to write this book. Because as a TV writer, my job is not to have a voice. My job is to emulate the voice of the show or the characters. And I'm a copy. I'm a mimic. That's what I do. And that's what I've been doing for 27 years. And then to write, this was an experiment to me. What would it be like to write just whatever I want to write with no notes, no one telling me what to do. And it was very scary in the beginning. And it was very, I loved David Sari. How can I do him? And so I wrote a couple of pieces. I studied him, I read all, I've studied books over and over again. He was so entertaining. He writes so beautifully. And I read it over and over again, and I wrote my first pieces, almost like I was doing him. And I felt, oh, this is good. And then I let it sit for a couple of weeks, and then I read it with fresh eyes. And this is terrible. It sounds like someone pretending to be him is terrible.Sheila Heti:Yeah, yeah. But that's a stage that you still probably learned a bunch by doing that, maybe about structure or about something.Michael Jamin:No, not that I learned that I felt like I was a pretender, but my thought was, well, he's doing it. He's successful. I write and now I perform my pieces as well, which is what, and I tore a little bit, and I thought, well, if it works for him, why reinvent the wheels? He's obviously got a market. And then I realized I had to come to the conclusion that it was almost heartbreaking. I can never write like him. I can't, no matter much. I want to, it'll never happen. And then I had to let go of that, and then had to come to the more, even a larger, heartbreaking realization was like, oh, I have to write me. And who the hell is that?Sheila Heti:And how did you find it?Michael Jamin:It was a lot of just drafts after draft. And then the problem, and this is something else, but I find some of the earlier pieces are very different from the later pieces. And I've tempted to go back and change the earlier ones. But like you're saying, I'm also tempted. I feel like I can't, can't, it's time to let 'em go.Sheila Heti:Right. That was that person.Michael Jamin:But it's all in the same book, and it felt like, well, should there be any kind of, is that okay? Is it okay to feel like each one's a little different from the other? I don't know.Sheila Heti:Yeah. I don't know. I mean, are the early ones still good, even if they're different?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I think they're good. I'm not sure if anyone else would notice except for me, but I noticedSheila Heti:Maybe not. Yeah, probably. Yeah. And I think it's okay if they're a little different from each other.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I don't, well, we'll find out. But that was very difficult for me to figure out how to, and I turned a lot to, and I wonder if you do this, you kind of answered a little bit. I didn't want to turn to other writers. I turned to musicians to music. Do you do that asSheila Heti:Well? Which musicians?Michael Jamin:It was turning to musicians to find out what is art? What am I supposed to be doing here? Yeah.Sheila Heti:I always look to painters for that.Michael Jamin:So painter, is it contemporary painters orSheila Heti:Contemporary or not contemporary?Michael Jamin:And how do you pull, what are you looking for them? Yeah. When you look at a painting, how does that help you?Sheila Heti:Well, how does it help you to look at musicians?Michael Jamin:Well, there's two things with music, and I feel like music is too, they're telling us, they get to tell a story with lyrics and with music. So if you didn't hear the lyrics, maybe you'd still get the sentiment of it. And so I feel like they have two tools where we only have one because they can set a mood just for the tune. And so I looked to them for the intimacy in their bravery. You'd look, okay, Stevie Nicks, she's singing about herself. That's all she's doing. And okay, you can do that. It just felt so vulnerable to be doing this.Sheila Heti:Yeah.Michael Jamin:And that's why I'm shocked that you're so brave about it.Sheila Heti:I mean, it's the only job is to not care about yourself in relation to it, that the book matters. And you don't matter.Michael Jamin:Right. That's your job is to put the art first. Right.Sheila Heti:To not do things because worried about what people will think of you. That's the first. And I guess when I was younger, I was reading so many avant-garde writers that did that in such flamboyant ways. It just seemed to me the only Henry Miller, it just seemed to me maybe the first lesson, not even a conscious lesson, just like, oh, clearly he's not worried about what people are going to think of him or his reputation among decent people.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. And so you don't have that, obviously, you don't have that worry.Sheila Heti:No, but I don't know. A lot of decent people.Michael Jamin:Yes, you do. But yeah, I don't know. Again, it's what makes you, I don't know, such a fantastic writer. I mean, I want everyone to read your work because it's really fantastic. I have some questions here that I have to ask from. So my daughter, Lola, I tell her she's a way better writer than I was at her age. But the truth is, she may be a better writer than I'm now, but I don't tell her that part. But she has these questions. She put down some questions like, damn, you've got some good questions. So I can't take credit. I can't take credit for this question. GiveSheila Heti:Me Lowes questions.Michael Jamin:Okay. First of all, she says, what are your dreams for your writing, and how do you let them go while also keeping them alive? Oops. I dropped a rock.Sheila Heti:My dreams. You dropped a rock.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I dropped. I have magic crystals by my computer that are supposed to make my work better.Sheila Heti:Oh, what kind of rock is that?Michael Jamin:It came out of my head. You want some? Yeah. I don't know. They're magic, but they're on my computer. So what are your dreams for your writing, and how do you let them go while also keeping them alive? And I guess what she means is, I guess, ambitions at the age You were talking about that young age.Sheila Heti:Young. Yeah. How old is she? 20.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Sheila Heti:When I was 20, my dream was to be the best living writer, just to be the best novelist, just to work harder than any other writer alive. That's what I was thinking. ItMichael Jamin:Was work harder.Sheila Heti:I was like, I got to work harder than any other writer alive.Michael Jamin:That's what I was. And what did that work look like to you?Sheila Heti:Just always writing and always not being satisfied, and being a real critic of my work and trying to make it better, and trying to try to get it to sound more interesting and figure out what my sentences were, and letting myself be bad and repeat myself until I got better. And I don't think that I ever let that go. I am not sitting here today saying, I work harder than any other writer alive. But I do remember having that feeling when I was young. That's what I need to do. That's the only way it's going to work.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That importance. Yeah, becauseSheila Heti:It's just so hard. It's just so hard to write. Well, to write anything good for people.Michael Jamin:I think you give the perfect answer on that. I'll give her another theSheila Heti:Parental answer. In any case, work hard.Michael Jamin:Work hard. Well, but it was really,Sheila Heti:It's true. I think it's true that, and I remember being her age and interviewing this older Canadian writer, Barbara Gowdy, who I really loved, and she told me, and she's terrific. She told me, I was writing for the student newspaper, and she said, it's funny, I've got my students who have talent, clear talent, and then I've got these other students who don't seem to have so much talent, but the ones who don't so much talent work really hard, and they end up doing better than the ones that have talent. And I thought, oh, I never even would've known that. I would've thought that. I didn't know that hard work meant could mean more than talent. So hopefully you have talent, and then you can also make the choice to talentMichael Jamin:Work. And you learned this at a young age, you're saying thisSheila Heti:Part? I mean, my mother was also just very strict about working hardMichael Jamin:Right.Sheila Heti:Studies and stuff.Michael Jamin:Interesting. Yeah. She's a delian mom. Hungarian.Sheila Heti:Yeah.Michael Jamin:Do you speak any Hungarian?Sheila Heti:No. Do you? No.Michael Jamin:No, I don't. But I do know there's a Hungarian expression that really helped me. I'll tell you what it is. So do you speak any other languages?Sheila Heti:No,Michael Jamin:No, no. That's your next task. I wrote about this in one of my stories as well. There's a Hungarian expression where it says, okay, so let me take it back. So I learned to speak Spanish as a teenager and then Italian as an adult. So each time when you learn a new language that you're not born into, there's that moment where it's like it's really hard to talk. It takes months and months, and then finally one day you open your mouth and the words just come out without thinking just like that magic. And it's turning on a light bulb. And I've had a hard time explaining to people what that feels like. But then I discovered a Hungarian expression, which said it perfectly. It says, when you learn a little language, you gain a new soul. And I thought, that's exactly what it feels like, because you're talking, you're like, who is this? I don't speak this language. Who am I? That's incredible. And you talk about soul so much in your work. I thought maybe that's something you had experienced.Sheila Heti:I never got that far. I mean, I studied French and I never got close to a new soul. I didn't have always translation.Michael Jamin:You're always translating in your head,Sheila Heti:Right? Yeah.Michael Jamin:It's just that moment, like, I don't know who I am. And then you find yourself reacting differently. And also using, if I find myself, I can't say, I don't know how to say this, so I'll say it this way, which is not how I

Jacke continues his Emily Dickinson series with a reading of Poem #32. Then Professor Patrick Whitmarsh stops by for a discussion of his new book Writing Our Extinction: Anthropocene Fiction and Vertical Science, which examines works by Don DeLillo, Karen Tei Yamashita, Reza Negarestani, and Colson Whitehead (among others) to see how post-Oppenheimer authors have responded to the existential crises of climate change and the nuclear age. And finally, Kurt Vonnegut's biographer Christina Jarvis selects two books to be the last ones she will ever read. Help support the show at patreon.com/literature or historyofliterature.com/donate. The History of Literature Podcast is a member of Lit Hub Radio and the Podglomerate Network. Learn more at www.thepodglomerate.com/historyofliterature. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We talk about the January 6th Committee's work with Luke Broadwater, who covers Congress for the New York Times. He was in the Capitol the day of the assault, and has reported on the Committee's work from the beginning.John Powers reviews Noah Baumbach's film adaptation of Don DeLillo's White Noise.The list of authors Robert Gottlieb has edited include Joseph Heller, Toni Morrison, John Le Carré, Katharine Graham, Bill Clinton, Nora Ephron and Michael Crichton. The documentary Turn Every Page, by his daughter Lizzie Gottlieb, examines his decades-long editing relationship with Power Broker author Robert Caro.

Jon Mooallem met with the director Noah Baumbach to discuss his latest film, an adaptation of Don DeLillo's 1985 novel “White Noise.”The pair explore the recent chain of personal and public events in Baumbach's life, including the toll of the coronavirus pandemic and the death of his father, and how this “routine trauma” has affected his work, and why it prompted him to create a discombobulated, “elevated reality” for his film in the vein of David Lynch, the Coen brothers and Spike Lee.This story was written and narrated by Jon Mooallem. To hear more audio stories from publications like The New York Times, download Audm for iPhone or Android.