Podcasts about Norman Mailer

Oh man, oh god, oh man, oh god! Paul, June, and Jason cover Norman Mailer's 1987 crime mystery Tough Guys Don't Dance starring Ryan O'Neal and Isabella Rossellini. They try to make sense of the movie's insanely confusing plot while discussing all the weird dialogue, the use of Pomp and Circumstance, the bad southern twangs, and so much more. (Ep. #268 Originally Released 06/17/2021) • Go to hdtgm.com for tour dates, merch, FAQs, and more• Leave us a voicemail at speakpipe.com/hdtgm• Submit your Last Looks theme song to us here• Join the HDTGM conversation on Discord: discord.gg/hdtgm• Buy merch at howdidthisgetmade.dashery.com/• Order Paul's book about his childhood: Joyful Recollections of Trauma• Shop our new hat collection at podswag.com• Paul's Discord: discord.gg/paulscheer• Paul's YouTube page: youtube.com/paulscheer• Follow Paul on Letterboxd: letterboxd.com/paulscheer• Subscribe to Enter The Dark Web w/ Paul & Rob Huebel: youtube.com/@enterthedarkweb• Listen to Unspooled with Paul & Amy Nicholson: unspooledpodcast.com• Listen to The Deep Dive with June & Jessica St. Clair: thedeepdiveacademy.com/podcast• Instagram: @hdtgm, @paulscheer, & @junediane• Twitter: @hdtgm, @paulscheer, & msjunediane • Jason is not on social media• Episode transcripts available at how-did-this-get-made.simplecast.com/episodesGet access to all the podcasts you love, music channels and radio shows with the SiriusXM App! Get 3 months free using the link: siriusxm.com/hdtgm Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The writer Tom Junod has spent a career crafting profiles for men's magazines like GQ and Esquire, often of famously complicated men like Norman Mailer, Kevin Spacey and Tony Curtis. But another man loomed behind Junod's interest in these figures, informing his own sense of masculinity and manhood: his father, Lou. Lou Junod was handsome, charismatic — a man who seemed like a celebrity, even though he wasn't famous. He was also mysterious, a keeper of secrets that have continued to reverberate through his son's life. On today's episode, Michael Barbaro talks with Junod about his new book, “In the Days of My Youth I Was Told What It Means to Be a Man,” which is part memoir and part detective story, as well as a powerful meditation on fatherhood. On Today's Episode: Tom Junod is the author of “In the Days of My Youth I Was Told What It Means to Be a Man.” Background Reading: Tom Junod Would Like to Tell You About His Father Art: Lou Junod with baby Tom in 1958. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins sits down with former NYPD officer Jimmy Dennedy and NYC Brooklyn prosecutor Michael Vecchione for a gripping discussion on violent crime, justice, and redemption. Jimmy recounts the shocking murder of NYPD officers Rocco Laurie and Gregory Foster by the Black Liberation Army, while Michael reveals the challenges of prosecuting those responsible. The conversation then shifts to something unexpected—redemption. After retiring, Jimmy began working in prison ministry, where he witnessed firsthand how even hardened criminals, including mobsters, can change their lives. This episode dives deep into: The reality of cop killings in New York City The struggle to prosecute violent offenders Inside stories from mob cases Redemption and transformation inside prisons Get the book Hard Guys Cry. If you're interested in true crime, mafia history, and real law enforcement stories, this is an episode you don't want to miss. Subscribe for more mafia history and true crime stories every week. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. [0:00] Hey, all you wiretappers, good to be back here in studio, Gangland Wire. This is Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective and now turned podcaster. And I have another retired cop here on the show, Jimmy Dennedy. Jimmy, I tell you what, I had it down, Dennedy, like Kennedy. And our friend who’s been on here several times, Michael Vecchione. Welcome, Michael. Welcome, Jimmy. Thank you very much for having us, Gary. Thank you. All right. Michael has several books out there. He’s, he’s prosecuted the mob. That’s how I got onto him. He prosecuted the, he had something to do with the mob cops, Louis Eppolito. And I can’t remember exactly now. I should have made a note on that, Michael. What was the name of that book? [0:48] The name of the book? Friends of the Family. Friends of the Family. Is that those two New York PD coppers that were in the pay of? Louis Eppolito and Louis Eppolito was one of the cops. And you know what, Gary? during the, when Jimmy, when you talk to Jimmy, Jimmy has a kind of a, an odd situation regarding Louie Eppolito. And, and it’s a good story. I think he should tell you, tell your listeners. All right. Great. We look forward to that, Jimmy and Jimmy Denity, who was a New York city policeman. And he has a book, tough dies to cry. Hard guys cry. Let me do that over again. Yeah. I said, I left, I had it written down here and he had Jimmy Denity is here with us. He is a retired New York City copper, and he has a book, Hard Guy’s Cry. So welcome, Jimmy. [1:34] Good morning. Thank you very much for having me. All right, Michael, you and Jimmy, did you guys work together a little bit on the job? Did you know each other back then? Yeah, we certainly did. We’ve probably known each other now for maybe 45 or more years. I got to know Jimmy because I got assigned a case involving, unfortunately, the death, the murder of two New York City police officers who were assigned to Jimmy’s precinct at the time in Bed-Stuy. And it was a case that had been tried twice before I got it. And there were hung juries in both of the cases. And the DA at that point was going to just simply decide to not prosecute it anymore. And the head of the policeman’s union went to the DA, the district attorney, and said, listen, just give it one more shot. So I was at the time the head of a group called the Major Offense Bureau in the Brooklyn DA’s office. And I got, I’ll never forget this. I was sitting at my desk and the boss of the unit, the bureau that I was part of, came into my office and said, come with me. We’ll go to see the DA. [2:41] I didn’t know. I thought maybe I was in trouble for some reason, but I sat down and he said, listen, I want to give you one more shot. I want to take this case to trial one more time and you are the guy that we want to do it. So I was happy to do it. I tried a lot of cases by that point. And, and the best part of the whole situation, Gary is I met Jimmy Danity. That was, he, we became fast friends and I got to tell you a little funny story. He had been involved in the two other trials. [3:11] But when he sat down with me, the first thing he said to me was, or one of the first things was, do you eat lunch? I said, yeah, of course I eat lunch. Why? He said, the guy that tried the case before you and the one before him, they didn’t eat lunch. And by the time the afternoon came, their energy was all waned, had waned. And he said, so here’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to have lunch on your desk every time you come back for the lunch break from the trial. And he did. There was a sandwich waiting for me every day when I came back, and he is the guy that brought it to me. But before the trial, we went out. Me, Jimmy, and detective from the Homicide Bureau, who was assigned to the case. [3:57] Tony Martin, went out to the scene. And again, another one of these scenes, which I’ll never forget. The scene was in the middle of Bed-Stuy on Troop Avenue. Jimmy, that was the, yeah. [4:10] Willoughby and Troop. Willoughby and Troop. So we’re on the street and the three of us are standing there right on the sidewalk. And we look around and I said to Tony, did you hit every one of these buildings looking for witnesses? Because there was a problem with the case with the witnesses. One had died in a very strange way. And so he looked around I don’t know if you remember this, Jimmy And he pointed to a building Diagonally across from the spot Where the two cops were shot And he said, Mike We never went into that building, And Jimmy and Tony went into the building, canvassed it and came up with two new witnesses. And so it was a wonderful experience working with Jimmy. He was a hard worker. He really was tied to this case in the sense that these guys were his friends. They were two guys who were gunned down for really no reason by a member of the Black Liberation Army at the time who was part of the Attica riots here in New York. He was actually one of the guys who started the Attica riots in New York. And he was out and he was with another guy. And we believe that they were going to meet another one of their fellow. [5:27] I don’t want to call them gang members, to set up a robbery. And that’s why they were in Brooklyn. And the case had so many ups and downs and twists and turns. And it was something which I obviously will never forget. But the best part about it, I’ll repeat myself, is that I met Jimmy Denity. And he and I have been friends from that point on until today. And so let me just get to the book because Hard Guy’s Cry to me was a labor of love. It really was. I got a call one afternoon and I’m sitting out on my deck and Jimmy calls me and we just got to talking and he asked me about doing a book about his life and his story. And I said, it’s great. There are lots of books out there about cops and street cops and what they’ve done on the street. He said, so he said, oh, but he started to now expand on it. And then he told me the second part of his career, which was the prison ministry in the federal prison and a state prison here in New York. And I said, Jimmy, you buried the lead. That’s the part of this book that I can sell to a publisher. Because Gary, you probably know this. You probably interviewed these guys who do books when they retire. This was just going to be one of those. Jimmy’s career on the street was terrific. [6:47] The only problem was there are lots of guys who have books out there like that. So when he told me the story about his prison ministry, I was working at the time with a partner of mine, Jerry Schmetterer, who has now passed away. And we both talked about it and we said, this is definitely a story. This is definitely a book. And it’s been a long journey, Jim, until we got to this point. We’ve had COVID. We’ve had the Minneapolis, the guy in Minneapolis who was killed and agents saying to us, nobody wants to publish a book about a good cop. Nobody wants to do that. You can’t sell this until I didn’t give up. I really didn’t give up. And I took the proposal and I rewrote it after Jerry died. And then I sent it out to a couple of publishers and one of them grabbed it and said, yes, I want to do this. And then believe it or not, Gary, his publishing company hit the skids in terms of being able to spend money. He went out of business. So I had one more shot and I gave it to the publisher of my novels. [7:55] And she finally is the one who said, yes, let’s do this. And then here we are today. [8:01] It’s really, again, I said this before, but it was a journey of love. It really was to tell this guy’s story. and we, I know I’m repeating myself, but we became such good friends that our families got to know each other. I went to Jimmy’s house for holidays. We really just became very good friends. And here we are. And I’m so happy that I was able to write this book because I really believe that the people who read it will say, wow, this is a great guy. This is a great guy. And he is. Interesting. Hey, Jimmy, I got a couple of questions for you. Now, you worked, that was the Rocco and Lori case, if I remember right. And everybody who worked big city policing at the time, that scared the dog shit out of us. It was like these guys just laid in wait for a couple patrolmen to walk by, stepped out and shot them. That was my impression. And I worked that kind of a neighborhood. And we were jumping. We were pretty jumpy for quite a while. And it wasn’t solved for a while. We knew it was some kind of a political act, or at least that’s what we’re led to believe. Did you guys feel the same way in New York? Let me just stop you for a second. The case that I did with Jimmy was Norman Cerullo and Christina Soames years later. The one that you’re talking about, Rocco Laurie and Gregory Foster, was much earlier. [9:21] Jimmy was involved in it because he was a good friend of Rocco Laurie. They went to the academy together. But I’m sorry to interrupt, but I just wanted to make sure that we were talking about the right thing. [9:33] So that kind of a case, you actually went through two of them. So tell us about your feelings about that. Did that, how did that affect your dealings on the street? I was in the academy with Rocco Laurie, right? And we had both come out of the Marine Corps at the same time. And we worked out together. We boxed together. And some of the guys were slacking off. The guy’s name was Mr. Clean. He was the instructor. He would say, okay, now you’re going to box with Denny or you’re going to box with Laurie. Of course, they were slacking. We weren’t slacking. Oh, God. That was me. They said, Jenkins, go over there and box with one of those guys. No brother in Lime. [10:12] So we became close we we knew his wife he knew that time it was my girlfriend but that was my wife we had gone out to dinner and he was a really good man in the academy i won the gun for physical fitness he won the gun for overall excellence and we got pictures with our guns together and stuff. So I was working at midnight with this guy, Victor Grillo, nice guy. And a job came over. Cops shot in Manhattan. We were in Brooklyn. It’s on the other side of the bridge. So we’re saying, wait. And that became the ninth precinct. That’s where Rocco worked. So we used to call him the Rock. I hope it’s not the Rock. And it turns out it was him. These guys executed him. They were basically a domestic terrorist group. They were robbing banks. They were killing cops for no reason. They just walked past them, turned around, opened up on them. And they shot them all over the face to the groin. And then they took their guns and shot them. And some of the guns actually wound up out in St. Louis or in West Area. [11:16] So did it affect me? Absolutely. I became, I don’t want to say callous, but I was very leery of everybody. [11:26] And I started, my niche was guns. I locked up a lot of guys for a lot of guns. But anything to do with it, Black Liberation Army or anything, I used to accumulate information, intelligence information, and my locker was full of it. I’d lock up a guy, and they used to have years ago the little address books. I used to take their address books, and they would ask me information, the FBI, the Major K-Squad, Jimmy, have any information on this guy? And which I did many times, right? Fast forward several years later, I’m out, and I’m having a few cocktails, and then i drove back to the precinct the 79th precinct to meet a friend of mine bobby perry, and while i was at the front of the desk there’s a place they could check your messages if anybody calls you messages so i’m checking my messages and it came over shots fired then it came over cop shot then it came over two cop shot then i drove down to my civilian car right it was dark, and it was like help you know radio card door is open you know I mean blood all over the place he also shot his friend right and he’s laying it dead with a gun in his hand his blood all over the place it was a nightmare so let me figure this out but now everybody name others coming down because he’s cop-killing students a doubleheader so to speak and then I see the blood going across the street and the blood stops. [12:53] So obviously somebody was shot. It’s not our guys. And then I assume he got into a car. [13:00] So I’m trying to figure, is he going to go to the Spanish neighborhood or deeper into the black neighborhood? And I said, let me go to the hospital. So I drive to the hospital to see if they need blood or anything. And out of the corner of my eye, when I passed Lexington Avenue, I see there had been a car accident. A guy hit parked cars. I kept going. And then I told Mike, you know, my father gave us a game when we were kids. It was called Game in the States. at a map of the united states and you had two little electric wires and you plug one into the state and there’s a list of capitals on the other side and when you hit that the light would go on you got the right answer and as god is the lord a light went off in my head just like it was the right state capital yeah went to the hospital and they did you know and then this guy paulie has ever seen him he’s crying he was in plain clothes anti-crime i said paulie listen to me Two things. Once, I want to come in the car. I’m going to go back to the scene. Because when I got there, there was a Spanish guy on the pool across the street. And he was a little biggazy type guy himself. But he used to give me information. He used to give me information on his competitors. Yeah. [14:10] Yes. So when he saw me, you know, he ran. Right? I wanted to come back and talk to him. But on the way back, I said, Paul, I’m going to stop at this accident scene. This is, it’s just there. Yeah. Go back there. Ambulance is starting to pull away fire truck was there pulling away so i went over there they said it’s an accident scene the guy’s injured i said what kind of injury is it the guy said well he dressed his wound because he won he refused medical aid this guy so i said i just dressed his wound i saw undress the wound let me look at it i’m not undressing the wound i went over and i just ripped it off and it’s a gunshot wound yeah right yeah so all he had a radio calls the sergeant down and they bring a witness from willoughby avenue she comes down she says that’s the guy who killed the two cops so we get him put him in the ambulance right in the ambulance he’s a big boy this guy right and he goes reach and grabs my gun from my holster so now it’s like an arm wrestle for the gun between me him and paulie saracena and during this arm wrestle necessary force was used and the necessary force was used until he dropped the gun or he got the gun from him. Goes to the hospital. He has a Derringer behind his belt buckle and he has police handcuff key. [15:38] These guys are the real deal. Yeah, that’s a real deal. They train for this stuff. They associate but others that train they shoot you know what i mean so it’s just uncanny that rocko was my friend and he was murdered in a double police homicide and then a few years later i lock up a guy from the same team that killed two of my friends you know it was a nightmare and then we went to trial and that’s how i met mike and it’s a very. [16:09] It’s pressing on your brain. Yeah. Something like this happens. And then, and I don’t have to tell you, Gary, but then you get other cases. So you’re making more gun arrests, but you still have this. You know what I mean? It’s, it’s tough. It’s tough. But it was. I just want to interrupt for one second. One of the, Jimmy mentioned her. They brought a witness back to the scene to identify the, the bad guy. And, uh, and she was a great witness. She was there when the shooting occurred. She was actually moving into the building that the shooting happened in front of. And so the case was, we had a couple of, she was the best eyewitness to the case. And as Jimmy and Tony Martin, the detective who were assigned together after the actual arrest, because we had, they had to get the case together and look for more witnesses, et cetera. [16:58] They went one day to see this particular young woman to talk to her and see what was, if everything was still good, if she was okay. Turns out she was in the hospital nobody knew this she had gone into the hospital we were told because she had a cold she died in the hospital gary from a cold which is what we thought turns out she had encephalitis but the thing was at the time we said who goes into a hospital number one with a cold and who dies from a cold so we at that point not me but i wasn’t on the case yet, but others. And then when Jimmy told me this later on, I said to myself. [17:42] It’s got to be some connection to the bad guys. Maybe they poisoned her. Maybe they did something and we looked into it. It turned out, Jimmy, what was the disease that she had? I think she had herpes viral encephalitis in the brain. It’s a possibility that it can be induced. Yeah. So that’s what we looked at. And the medical examiner at the time of the death never really looked. The DA who had the case at the time thought, ah, this is a slam dunk. We had this witness, that witness. Jimmy arrests the guy and he’s got the bullet, which another thing happened. He wouldn’t allow the medical people to take the bullet out of his leg. It was the cop’s bullet. Yeah. So we wouldn’t, he wouldn’t let him do it. So we had to go with a, an x-ray of the bullet at the trial instead of the bullet itself. But it was, it’s a case with, as I said before, excuse me, many twists and turns. And it’s the whole story is in the book. And I don’t want to take away from Jimmy’s story here, but I have a legal question. You couldn’t get a search warrant to take the bullet out of a person. Is that? [18:51] We tried, and you know what the judge said? No. Uh-huh, okay. I just, I never ran into that. I’ve heard that before where the bullet stays inside and you can’t get it. I just. [19:03] I tried. The judge wouldn’t give us the search, the ability to search, quote unquote, which meant taking the bullet out of his leg. Anyway, so that’s where we, that’s where we met. And it was, it was quite a case. And Jimmy, I understand you, you go through your career and you see all these horrible things and you’re harding yourself. And you know, the title of your book, hard girls, hard boys, hard men cry. I don’t know why I got hard guys cry. I don’t know why I can’t remember. I should remember from Norman Mailer’s tough guys don’t dance, but hard guys cry. And so you harden yourself all those years, but then something happened in your life. Apparently that changed, changed that. I know after I retired, partly what happened to me is I became a lawyer and I started dealing with people from not particularly criminals, but many times relatives of people who had gone to jail. And I worked for public defenders and really got to know people on the other side and realize that we’re just two sides of the same coin many times trying to get along and trying to get by. So what happened in your life that changed that, your attitude? [20:11] When I retired, there was an old man who was a farmer, and it was like a late-year-type situation. This farmhouse was falling apart. The second floor was owned by raccoons. He had electricity in one room and no running water, but he was the calmest, nicest, most spiritual guy you ever wanted to meet. Almost no teeth. He had one tooth. And there was Louis Adamski. We used to call him Louis the farmer. So I used to take care of Louis. was taking over my house for Thanksgiving, Christmas, driving down this long driveway, see how he’s doing. And I didn’t see him for a while. So I drove down the driveway one particular day and I said, Louie, I haven’t seen you. You haven’t called. He said, he had bladder cancer. I said, really? I said, wow. He said, you had two surgeries. I said, you’re going for follow-up treatment? And he said, I’m supposed to go every 90 days, but he had no insurance, zero, no Social services, nothing. And the doctors were suing him. And they wanted his farm. He owned one-tenth of his farm. It had about 80 acres. But it was heirs. Everybody in his family had passed away. I said, Louie, you got to get follow-up treatment. So there was a city that’s not about a half hour away called Newburgh, New York. And there was a urologist I was familiar with. So I told him the story. This guy has nothing. He said to me, if you will drive him, I will treat him like the president of the United States. [21:40] So for two and a half years, just about every month, sometimes twice a week, it all depends when his visits were, I would drive Louie. So it was like an all day affair almost because I have my own business, so I don’t show up for work. What do I care? So I take care of Louie all this time and my friends are patting me on the back saying, oh, you’re Louie’s angel. So one particular day we go in and… [22:03] He, if Louis checker, he calls me into the, uh, his consultation room and he says, so your friend’s cancer is back. She got to be kidding me. He said, yeah, I feel it on his prostate. He said, he has someone for biopsy Friday. This was on a Wednesday. I said, I don’t know how he’s going to get there. It’s an old day. I said, doc, listen, I’m married to this guy for two and a half years. I said, I’ll take him. He said, you sure? It was an old day. I said, doc, I don’t care. He said, all right. He said, I’ll tell you what, as long as you’re going to take them, your PSA is just borderline high. He said, I feel there’s nothing on your prostate, but if you’re going to take it, let me give you a biopsy too. I said, fine, I don’t care. So I take, we both get the biopsy. The next Wednesday, he calls them both of us in. I have cancer as well, worse than his, right? So he got radiation. I went out to New York City. There was a top flight surgeon in Columbia Presbyterian Hospital. And I told him the story like I’m telling you now. So he said, you got to cut that out of there. You don’t want it in there. So they cut me a half. They took it out. And in the recovery room, he comes in and he says to me, you weren’t Louis’ angel. Louis was your angel. He said, you had a C-grade cancer. It was starting to spread, but I got everything. [23:15] So he said, you would have been dead about a year and a half. He said, because you had no signs, no symptoms. By the time you had the symptoms, it would be all over. Yeah. So it changes the way you think that I was invited to go on to this, a religious retreat weekend, a Cresillo weekend. I didn’t want to go. I’m not a holy roller. It’s not my cup of tea, but I socially boxed in like friends. So then your wife has to go too. So my wife, Noraline said, oh, I’ll go. And I said, oh, yeah, now I got to go. So I go on this week. it’s it’s thursday friday saturday sunday you can’t bring a watch you didn’t have cell phones then right so you’re stuck there so i went and i hooked up for a couple of other ex-marines and this actor mike was poorly he was on the sopranos so i sit in the back like we’re just going to ride this one out oh we can write it out it turns out that it was very moving, it’s very moving and people spoke that thought they were like punks i knew them indirectly they had quite a story to tell and then, weekend was over and on the way back it was November and I was telling Mike I rolled the windows down it was like spring, spring in my mind you see things differently like these computer generated pictures you see what it is but if you stare at it long enough another picture comes out within the picture and kind of life came out of life for me I saw things differently, Then these guys asked me to go into the prison. [24:42] Listen, I say, listen, you’re a carpenter. You’re a plumber. You don’t know what these guys are. I’ve thrown these guys down stamps and shot a guy at my house. Crazy. Again, I’m socially boxed in. So we go up to the prison. It was 41 of us, 41 of us. It’s called the Kairos. It’s an interdenominational… [25:01] Prison ministry. So I sit in a big circle, piece of paper, it passes around. When you get it, you have to say who you are, where you’re from. So I get it. I said, my name’s Jimmy Danity. I live in Orange County, New York. I’m married. I have two children, and I retired from the Oak City Police Department. They booed me. I told Mike, it was like an old dog growling. Yeah. Yeah. I said, what am I doing here? So the next day, because you had to sleep up in the prison too, The next day, you’re at a table. So you have an inmate on either side. So there’s like maybe nine people at the table. And there’s three of us, six of them. And don’t ask them what they did. Never referred them as a prisoner, as a resident. They were like, guys, I grew up with their neighbor. I said, what did you do? You stupid. So it becomes, it was a religious weekend. But also, it’s practical life. And you guys were good. You know what I mean? I got along well with them. So we did every day and it was friday saturday sunday they finished and that’s it i’m done i’m done with this i said i’d do it and i’m saying i wonder if any of my guys would show up to a wednesday night they have a wednesday night follow-up at this organization i wonder if any of my guys would be there so you know what let me show let me go to one wednesday right all my guys. [26:22] Oh, my gosh. And that was the only, Gary, that was the only table where all of them showed up again. So that’s why he knew that this was the right thing for him. I’m sorry, Jim. I just want to know. And so this was still in the prison. Yeah. Back up the prison. Yeah. And they invited these guys. If you want, you can come to this follow up. At that time, every Wednesday at six o’clock, they could go into the chapel to this particular group meeting. So I just want to see if any of my guys are going to show up. They all showed up and then the volunteers drop off and then i said let me do another wednesday, and another wednesday and it comes like everybody wants to talk to you it’s like when you go into the pet store where puppies say they want you to pick them like pick me and it you get you wind up with a group i tell mike they’re my guys and then you wind up it’s a spiritual thing no question about it right it’s brand involved and everything but you go through life with these guys and a lot them have a lot of crazy situations yeah and one guy is a mafia guy and i think frankie and he wants to say jimmy this new guy he wants to talk to your jug it’s all right so he takes me behind this little interdenomination altar they got there right so i said hey don’t you he says remember me i said no he said you should you broke my nose so i said when did i break your nose He said. [27:46] Yeah, in the park on 53rd Street where we used to play hockey. He said, your brother, I remember you. I mentioned his name, his last name. I said, you were messing with the park attendant. I slammed a basketball in his face. You know what I mean? He never forgot it. They told Frankie, yeah, he was crazy before he went to the Marine Corps. I’d make guys in there. [28:04] I worked. Yeah. The drug cases that they had. [28:09] You know, I knew who their bosses were. I testified in Philadelphia against one of these guys’ big bosses. And it’s just, it was like almost an inside straight. It was like meant to be. It was meant to be. And then my parish priest, so then I started, I was in the denominational night. The Catholic guys had nothing. I started a Catholic night with a few other good guys, my friend Brian and a few other guys, right, on Thursday. So now I’m going there Wednesday and Thursday. So my parish priest said, the state maximum security doesn’t have anything like this. Let’s start one there. So I’m going Wednesday, the federal prison, Thursday to the state max. You know, and it, I did it for 25 years, two days a week. Wow. And if the guys in Brooklyn, where I was a cop, knew I was doing this, they say, wrong guy, definitely. Somebody else, you got the wrong guy. Yeah. It’s the way the good Lord leads you. Now, something changed in your life and it’s not like you had any control of it. It just, it changed. You opened yourself up. It seems to me like it. And you just didn’t have any choice but to go down this path. And you know what it is also, Gary, it’s also like you’re preventing crime. You’re doing the same thing only from the inside. From the inside, you want to change the way they think, the way they act. And there’s a million things I could tell you how I was able to change things in a prison. They’re going to stab somebody. The guy who was a rat. [29:32] And they didn’t like him. I didn’t like him. And I told him, listen, I like the guy. He said, you like the guy? Don’t get involved in this. I said, do what you want to do. I like the guy. They never touch the guy. Because if they do something like that, then they’re going to hurt you. [29:46] Gary, I think Jimmy should tell you, he’s talking about the effect he had on these guys. What really was the point of the prison ministry was to essentially make these guys, I think, better people and to change their lives. I think you should tell him, ask Jimmy, tell him the story of the Boston mobster because this one, this story has, it really hits home as to exactly what effect he had on someone who was one of guys that you might have on your show. someday. This guy was a really bad guy. And he was up there with Whitey Bulger, et cetera, in Boston. So I think it’s worthwhile to tell the story. And it really hits home in terms of how effective Jimmy was after being effective on the street, locking up these guys, what he did with the prison. So if you have a bit of time, I think it’s worthwhile to hear the story. Yeah, let’s hear it. I always want to hear stories about mobsters, anyhow. Yep. Go ahead, Jim. We were up at the federal prison, and it was during the holiday season, right? And the volunteer chaplain was Father Paul Papara, and he was giving a talk on forgiveness. So we had all these wise guys. It was a mess. They had all different guys. This particular time, a couple of wise guys, they had their arms folded, and they said, Father, you want me to forgive the guy that ratted me out? [31:05] He’s home with his family, and I’m here doing X amount of years left on my bid. So I raised my hand. so I said listen if this guy is lying and put you in prison for no reason shame on him he should rot in hell but if he just exposed what you did anyway you know you did it if you did it the good lord see you live in a fishbowl the guy just exposed you for what you did that’s, You have no bitch here, pal. Jimmy, this guy Jimmy, he’s a different name than him. Jimmy stands up and he says, listen, I’ve been in jail. I’ve killed people. I don’t want to, I forgive anybody. I want forgiveness. I’ll forgive anybody. So that was it. Eventually, Jimmy, a couple years later, goes home. So he called me at my office a couple years later and he wanted me to write a letter of reference to work at the docks with Homeland Security. I said, I don’t know how to write it. Put down that I was a prisoner and just what you thought of me. No problem. So I met him in the prison, stuff like that, right? [32:03] About a year after that or so, I get a call from him again. He says, hey, Jimmy, you got time? Hey, Jimmy. I said, good. I got all the time in the world for you. He said, what’s up, pal? He said, I was on a train platform. He says, and I see this guy. Him and his associate tried to kill me. They had stabbed me 13 times. He said, I already took care of his friend. And I walked up to him like a face-to-face with him. Then he recognized me the guy turned white and urinated all over himself because he knows he’s there jimmy says to me i put my finger on his face and i told him you know that thing you’re worried about right get out of here i forgive you i get the fuck out of here now and he says to me jimmy it would have been easier for me to clip this guy and to forgive the guy but i forgave him, And I’m saying, Jimmy, I’m so proud of you, I can’t, just, and he, for him to call me to tell me how he responded to that situation, you know, which was completely out of character to the old guy, the old Jim. He was very proud of himself, and I was very proud of him. [33:09] So that’s the story Mike has told. It was the story, quite frankly, Gary. Didn’t he have one of the Westies in there with him? They were some particularly brutal crew in New York City. Yeah, yeah, he did. [33:25] We had a few of them up there. We had Jimmy Coonan, who started the Westies. Oh, okay. Jimmy was there, and I was friendly with Jimmy because I knew guys that he knew. The guys at Otisville Prison is a high medium. [33:38] Lewisburg is a max so when guys behave even a max they could come down to the media so when he came down he never came to the services and stuff we were talking all the way on the side but another fellow was a Westie a tough guy you know what I mean they would, drive through jewelry stores, 50 miles an hour go inside and rob everything but they would go in there before with their girlfriends looking good dressed nice they knew where this stuff was and they would take everything and he wound up getting locked up for almost like a Lufthansa type thing at the airport only they got caught so he was at my first weekend in the prison and we became very close friends and I tried to help him and he responded very positively, and he’s sitting in a circle there’s a cross, whoever has the cross has the microphone, nobody interrupts when you’re done, the next guy talks, he was talking and we finished, the Spanish kid so the Spanish kid is talking and he’s talking, so I told him what are you talking for Rich he can’t be talking like that the kid’s talking so he didn’t come for a few months then he comes back right and we’re sitting there talking and then he has a cross and he puts his head down. [34:54] And he starts talking and he says, you know, something happened to me. You can’t explain it. You had a Spanish kid in the next cell, right? It was a new guy. They robbed the sneakers and the kid had no sneakers. I know he’s got his head down. Now I’m thinking maybe he robbed the kid’s sneakers, right? He says, I gave him my sneakers because I had an extra pair. And as he’s telling the story, his head is down. The floor is gray, but getting darker, the teardrops. He’s telling the story he’s crying and then he says maybe I’m not all bad after all yeah I said how can you think of yourself like that he eventually goes home so, we my wife Norley and I get invited to his wedding which is a no-no but the guy was home so and the wedding is on Mulberry Street in Little Italy. [35:46] Yeah so we go down at the wedding and we’re like the oddball there but He could introduce us to enough people, you know, and if you see change in people, it’s wonderful. If on the street, if you go to these religious retreats, people go jumping out like a gazelle. But in prison, if an elephant jumps in it, it’s a miracle. Yeah. I mean, if you see somebody that thinks that they’re ugly, they’re not ugly inside. So I found it very rewarding. And. They, I didn’t think they’d respond to retired law enforcement, but they responded well. Yeah. Because I spoke their language. Yeah. So it lasted 25 years, Gary. Yeah. I’ve got a couple of guys here in Kansas city that it’s not a spiritual kind of a thing, but I’ve become friends with them. And one guy told me, he’s fine. He said, he said, I can talk to you and you understand what I’m talking about. He said, all the rest of the people in my life anymore, cause he’s out of the life. He said, they don’t understand what I’m talking about. He said, I don’t have to get back into life, but I can talk to you and you know, you know, the people I’m talking about, you know what I’m talking about. I said, yeah, I do. [36:56] So obviously in case it was pretty obvious that we were, when we started to hear all these stories, when he told, told Jerry and I the story of the, the mobster who was crying because given the sneaker, that’s where the books, the title of the book comes from, art guys cry. But there’s one other guy in there that you should ask him about. And that is we had this, I don’t even know what to call him. He was really an oddball guy, a criminal in New York. He was a rich guy who owned a lot of, he ran art galleries and collected art galleries and collected paintings and got into the art world and was advising rich people as to what art they were buying. And it turns out he was basically a sadist. And he had another guy with him who he and the other guy wound up, he didn’t get charged with this, his partner did, wound up killing somebody. And when they found the body buried laying in the woods in upstate New York, he had one of those. [38:02] Sadomasochistic masks on him, his black mask. And this individual was one of Jimmy’s guys and he was a hardcore, am I right, Jimmy, in terms of not wanting help at all. He was just the kind of guy who, you know, if you help them, it was going to be a miracle. And he did. He helped them and it’s a miracle. And it’s worthwhile to tell the story about this guy. His name was Andrew Crispo. He’s no longer alive. And he was all over the newspapers here in New York City because of the whole masochistic, the sadomasochist activity that he was involved in. And that the picture of the dead body with that black mask on was all over the newspapers. And this guy, we have his picture in the book. If you see him, it’s butter wouldn’t melt in his mouth. He looked like the nicest guy in the world. Businessman. Turns out he was really one of the worst guys in terms of how he treated people. And Jimmy finally got to him. It was, to me, one of the more miraculous transformations when I heard all of the stories was this one because of what he was on the outside and what he became after Jimmy had him and he got out. He did not repeat his life the way that he was before here. Chris Bowe was a tough guy, right, Jimmy, in terms of getting to him? [39:28] Andrew, Sky Andre brought him down to one of our groups. And he asked me if he could bring his friend down the shirt. Everybody’s welcome, of course. And you’ve been around tough guys your whole life. Everybody’s a tough guy. You’re a tough guy. Everybody’s a tough guy. This guy had no muscle tone. He was like ashing in color. He looked like a raccoon. He had like rings around his eyes. And he was like creepy, creepy. So he came. And then he came for about seven years all the time. You get to know him, right? And he got grabbed for that sero-masochistic murder, but they couldn’t prove it. He got locked up, attempted kidnapping, the three-year-old daughter of the federal trustee. That’s why he was in jail now federal jail but he if you make a long story short he, doesn’t know who his parents are right and i’m not bleeding on i’m just telling you the way it is, he was dropped off at an orphanage as an infant and i was there for sentencing and this is what the judge said mr crispo he said before i sentence you i’d like you to know that i researched your history as a newborn you were dropped off in an orphanage right you remain there for 18 years where you were repeatedly beaten up and raped and. [40:47] But after leaving there, you managed to raise yourself up to get on the top of the art world, even owning a world-renowned art gallery in New York City. He said, for that, he said, I give you credit. However, then he banged him for seven years on the other thing. But he came down, and he had nothing spiritually. And if you sit with him and you talk with him, he kind of listened. He came around. [41:13] Like I told Mike, there was another guy. colombian guy his wife used to bring his daughter to work all the time so he came into the group a little late and he’s crying and then i said what’s the matter he said he said i’m not gonna see my daughter for two weeks i said well the comment told me once there’s a price for loving the price for loving is the absence of love you have to experience the love to miss it mr andrew who was sitting on our group andrew could you tell him a little bit about yourself oh yeah he said see the visiting room that you were in with your wife and the child, I’ve never been in there, and I’ll never be in there. And they said, there’s nothing worse than being alone, than being alone and no one cares. [41:56] And he came, and the rings went from his eyes, and then he became involved in all this other stuff. And he actually became a kind guy. He got involved with the church and things like that. And then he eventually went home. I’ll tell you the money he had. You need the money for an appeal? He sold one painting for $2.46 million. Oh wow the attorney’s fee that’s just one thing he had money but he had nothing yeah he had nothing and then when he went home he used to correspond you know and he’d write beautiful things thanks for the prayers thanks for your wife how’s your dog it’s not the same guy but he wasn’t like like what he’s tattooed tough guys he was like creepy tough and at the end when he left my opinion He was not. So if you can help somebody, it’s nice to help somebody if you can. Yeah. That’s interesting. That’s a true shift in the personality and to give somebody some spiritual hope in their life that they can, from what you’re describing to what he was to what he left when he left. That’s amazing. Exactly. That’s an amazing story. [43:01] There it is. Cry, The Journey of a Tough Cop from the Mean Streets to a Prison Ministry, Jimmy Dennedy and Michael Vecchione. Jimmy and Michael, I appreciate you guys so much for coming on and telling these stories. And guys, there’s a lot more stories just like this and better in the book. I’ll have links to get it down in the show notes. [43:22] And guys, you got anything last words you want to say? Anything you left out? [43:28] Gary, listen, keep getting those pension checks. [43:33] Yes, I will. I told my wife, Nora, put my feet in potting soil. If my toenail grows, that’s a sign of life. Keep getting that check. Really? [43:44] Thanks so much, Jimmy. All right. I just want to thank you. You’ve been terrific. And I hope that, I really mean this when I say this, people who get this book and read it or listen to it or however they want to get it into their, their mind, they’re going to love it because this guy’s story is just fantastic. And we touched on a few things, but we didn’t really touch, we didn’t get into the real meat that that’s there. And it’s, it was a, again, a pleasure to do this. So I’ve got one guy, I got one guy I talked to that has prison stories. I tell you what guys, there are so many great stories that come out of the penitentiary. It’s just, it’s amazing. I think part of these people don’t have much else current to talk about, so they tell stories from their past, and you get some great stories coming out of the prisons. Thanks a lot, guys. Gary. Thank you. God bless my friend.

“If you write something you think is really fanciful today, tomorrow's news headlines might be telling the exact same story. That's the challenge of writing realism today — when everything feels so sci-fi and so dystopic.” — Fred Lunzer Boy meets girl meets AI therapist. That is the premise of Sike, the debut novel by Fred Lunzer. Adrian is a rap ghostwriter who has never met any of the rappers he writes for. After a relationship collapse, he signs up for Sike — a Facebook-style AI psychotherapy app that tracks your every move and emotion via smart glasses and guides you toward mental contentment. He meets Maquie, a venture capitalist and Sike refusnik. You can imagine the rest. Sike is a self-consciously “realist” love story set in a world where AI therapy is ubiquitous. Lunzer wanted to write AI fiction that is realistic rather than dystopian or utopian. He started it speculatively. By the time he'd finished, ChatGPT had launched and what he'd once fancifully imagined had become reality. It's the futuristic writer's permanent predicament. Make the future believable before it becomes so familiar that we barely notice it. Turn science fiction into social realism. Five Takeaways •       AI Fiction Without Dystopia: The Gap Lunzer Is Filling: Almost all AI fiction is either utopian or dystopian. James Bond loves gadgets. Most literary fiction treats technology as vaguely grubby and pushes it into genre. Lunzer's ambition: find the realism. Write about a world where AI is already everywhere, the initial fears are already past, and we've reached the same ambivalent relationship with it that we have with our smartphones. We don't know what model we have. We barely think about it. That's where the interesting questions live. •       Reality Caught Up Before He Finished: Lunzer wrote Sike speculatively. By the time he finished, ChatGPT had launched. William Gibson's observation: the future is already here, just unevenly distributed. His corollary: if you write something fanciful today, it's tomorrow's news story. Lunzer's solution to this perpetual problem is to stop writing near-future speculation and instead set the story in a world where the technology is already past its introduction — where the hype is over and the real reckoning begins. •       Realism Is the Hardest Genre Right Now: Andrew's observation: the best AI fiction is realist. Ishiguro's Klara and the Sun treats unimaginable things as taken for granted. That's the technique. Lunzer agrees — and notes that realism is particularly hard to write now because everything already feels surreal. Trump, AI, the state of the world: if you'd described any of it thirty years ago, people would have called it fiction. The challenge of the realist novelist in 2026 is to find the quiet normality inside the chaos. •       Non-Polarising AI Fiction: Lunzer deliberately avoided writing a book that slams Meta, or that is obviously pro- or anti-AI. He calls it non-polarised. In Sike, some characters love the AI therapy app, some refuse to use it. No one is obviously right. The book's thesis — insofar as it has one — is that the interesting questions about AI are not the ones about whether it's good or bad, but the ones that arise once you've stopped arguing about that and started living with it. •       The Economics of Writing: Trenches, Not Glamour: Lunzer has a day job — AI researcher at Sony. Sike was his first published novel, not his first written. Before it: a travel narrative about the Japanese restaurant industry that went nowhere, and a novel about a global pandemic finished in early 2020 and overtaken by COVID before any publisher would touch it. His verdict on the publishing world: not glamorous. A lot of books. A lot of writers. Not much money except for a few. He got an advance. Most debut novelists don't earn it back. The lesson he draws from Norman Mailer: writing a good novel is like learning to play the piano well. It just takes time. About the Guest Fred Lunzer is an AI researcher at Sony and the author of Sike: A Novel (Celadon Books, 2024; paperback 2026). He was born in London and lives in West Sussex, England. References: •       Sike: A Novel by Fred Lunzer (Celadon Books, 2024; paperback 2026). •       Kazuo Ishiguro, Klara and the Sun — the key comparison text referenced in the interview. •       William Gibson — two quotes referenced: “The future is already here, just unevenly distributed”; and the observation about reality catching up with fiction. About Keen On America Nobody asks more awkward questions than the Anglo-American writer and filmmaker Andrew Keen. In Keen On America, Andrew brings his pointed Transatlantic wit to making sense of the United States — hosting daily interviews about the history and future of this now venerable Republic. With nearly 2,900 episodes since the show launched on TechCrunch in 2010, Keen On America is the most prolific intellectual interview show in the history of podcasting. WebsiteSubstackYouTubeApple PodcastsSpotify Chapters: 

Lou sits down with investigative journalist and TV producer Rob Rosen, whose debut book Crimes of Omission: Distorted Justice, The Media's War on Truth is available for pre-order now. Rob produced A Reasonable Doubt on HBO Max, which led to nine wrongful conviction releases, and spent years at KCBS covering the OJ Simpson trial alongside Harvey Levin. This one gets into it. Media bias, the Michael Brown case, hands up don't shoot, the real BLM story, empathy as a weapon, and the stat that will stop you cold.  TOPICS COVERED: 00:00 — Intro: Rob Rosen, investigative journalist and HBO producer 04:00 — Why Rob wrote Crimes of Omission and what broke him in 2020 07:00 — How newsroom monoculture shaped anti-police coverage 10:00 — Ferguson and Michael Brown: what Eric Holder's DOJ report actually said 15:00 — The full Michael Brown story the media buried — including his mental state 20:00 — Hands up, don't shoot: why it never happened 22:00 — Philando Castile, Diamond Reynolds, and what the dash cam showed 28:00 — The stat: how many unarmed Black men did police kill in 2019? 32:00 — A Reasonable Doubt on HBO Max: nine people released, the system mostly works 36:00 — The Serial podcast, credulous journalism, and how Reasonable Doubt was born 40:00 — Weaponized empathy: Norman Mailer, OJ Simpson, Luigi Mangione 45:00 — Suicidal empathy and Queers for Palestine 48:00 — BLM: what their own website said that journalists refused to report 54:00 — Defund the police was literal — Hawk Newsome said so on Rob's own podcast 57:00 — Why we don't have a shared reality anymore and what journalism has to do about it  PRE-ORDER Rob's book — Crimes of Omission: Distorted Justice, The Media's War on Truth: https://amzn.to/4triFFV  Watch A Reasonable Doubt on HBO Max  The Lou Perez Podcast: Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-lou-perez-podcast/id1535032081 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2KAtC7eFS3NHWMZp2UgMVU  Lou's book — That Joke Isn't Funny Anymore: https://amzn.to/3VhFa1r  TheLouPerez.com |  info@thelouperez.com  Newsletter: https://substack.com/@louperez #MediaBias #CrimesOfOmission #Ferguson #BLM #TrueCrime #LouPerezPodcast #Journalism #MichaelBrown #WrongfulConviction Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Lou sits down with investigative journalist and TV producer Rob Rosen, whose debut book Crimes of Omission: Distorted Justice, The Media's War on Truth is available for pre-order now. Rob produced A Reasonable Doubt on HBO Max, which led to nine wrongful conviction releases, and spent years at KCBS covering the OJ Simpson trial alongside Harvey Levin. This one gets into it. Media bias, the Michael Brown case, hands up don't shoot, the real BLM story, empathy as a weapon, and the stat that will stop you cold.  TOPICS COVERED: 00:00 — Intro: Rob Rosen, investigative journalist and HBO producer 04:00 — Why Rob wrote Crimes of Omission and what broke him in 2020 07:00 — How newsroom monoculture shaped anti-police coverage 10:00 — Ferguson and Michael Brown: what Eric Holder's DOJ report actually said 15:00 — The full Michael Brown story the media buried — including his mental state 20:00 — Hands up, don't shoot: why it never happened 22:00 — Philando Castile, Diamond Reynolds, and what the dash cam showed 28:00 — The stat: how many unarmed Black men did police kill in 2019? 32:00 — A Reasonable Doubt on HBO Max: nine people released, the system mostly works 36:00 — The Serial podcast, credulous journalism, and how Reasonable Doubt was born 40:00 — Weaponized empathy: Norman Mailer, OJ Simpson, Luigi Mangione 45:00 — Suicidal empathy and Queers for Palestine 48:00 — BLM: what their own website said that journalists refused to report 54:00 — Defund the police was literal — Hawk Newsome said so on Rob's own podcast 57:00 — Why we don't have a shared reality anymore and what journalism has to do about it  PRE-ORDER Rob's book — Crimes of Omission: Distorted Justice, The Media's War on Truth: https://amzn.to/4triFFV  Watch A Reasonable Doubt on HBO Max  The Lou Perez Podcast: Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-lou-perez-podcast/id1535032081 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2KAtC7eFS3NHWMZp2UgMVU  Lou's book — That Joke Isn't Funny Anymore: https://amzn.to/3VhFa1r  TheLouPerez.com |  info@thelouperez.com  Newsletter: https://substack.com/@louperez #MediaBias #CrimesOfOmission #Ferguson #BLM #TrueCrime #LouPerezPodcast #Journalism #MichaelBrown #WrongfulConviction Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Fiction has “lost its ambition,” and not only that, “its centrality to the culture,” Sam Kahn says in a recent piece on “Castalia,” his popular Substack newsletter. We explore that proposition in our wide-ranging conversation about contemporary fiction and its ailments. What's especially sad about the diminished role that fiction plays in the culture is that, in our Age of Upheaval, circumstances beg for the sort of wide-angled treatment that novelists like Saul Bellow and Norman Mailer supplied in their day. What happened? Kahn is also an editor at the digital-magazine Persuasion and he edits “The Republic of Letters” on Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

Fiction has “lost its ambition,” and not only that, “its centrality to the culture,” Sam Kahn says in a recent piece on “Castalia,” his popular Substack newsletter. We explore that proposition in our wide-ranging conversation about contemporary fiction and its ailments. What's especially sad about the diminished role that fiction plays in the culture is that, in our Age of Upheaval, circumstances beg for the sort of wide-angled treatment that novelists like Saul Bellow and Norman Mailer supplied in their day. What happened? Kahn is also an editor at the digital-magazine Persuasion and he edits “The Republic of Letters” on Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/literary-studies

Fiction has “lost its ambition,” and not only that, “its centrality to the culture,” Sam Kahn says in a recent piece on “Castalia,” his popular Substack newsletter. We explore that proposition in our wide-ranging conversation about contemporary fiction and its ailments. What's especially sad about the diminished role that fiction plays in the culture is that, in our Age of Upheaval, circumstances beg for the sort of wide-angled treatment that novelists like Saul Bellow and Norman Mailer supplied in their day. What happened? Kahn is also an editor at the digital-magazine Persuasion and he edits “The Republic of Letters” on Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/popular-culture

Joe Flaherty was a dock worker and high school dropout on the wrong side of 30 when he found an unexpected writer's life beginning as a columnist for the Village Voice. A couple years later, he was running the 51st State campaign of Norman Mailer and Jimmy Breslin as two of the city's most famous writers made their bid to run it on a 51st State platform built around the idea of giving New Yorkers more control of their own neighborhoods and slogans including “No More Bullshit” and “The Other Guys Are The Joke.” Joe's son Liam joins Lit NYC to talk about the very different Park Slope he grew up in, what his father accomplished in his short life before succumbing to prostate cancer at just 47 years old, what his dad would make of Mamdani's new era, and much more.

Giovanna Granato"Tripla eco"H.E. BatesAdelphi Edizioniwww.adelphi.it«Dopo sessant'anni di scrittura e di lettura, metterei H.E. Bates tra i migliori autori di racconti del mio tempo» (Graham Greene).Traduzione di Giovanna GranatoSiamo nel cuore vivo, intimamente vulnerabile, della campagna inglese, la seconda guerra mondiale è al terzo anno e il marito della protagonista è da tempo prigioniero dei giapponesi. Isolata, lontana anche dal minuscolo centro abitato, la donna conduce un'esistenza selvatica, scandita dai ritmi della natura, e solo l'irruzione di un giovane soldato in licenza, refrattario alla vita militare, rompe la solitudine. Quando il ragazzo decide di disertare, lei lo asseconda e, in virtù della sua bellezza eterea, quasi femminea, non esita a travestirlo in modo da farlo passare per la sorella agli occhi di eventuali curiosi. La relazione sembra reggere sui trampoli del magato idillio, finché un brutale sergente della polizia militare non s'invaghisce della «sorella», con le conseguenze del caso. Tutto rimarrà ambiguo sino all'ultimo, prima di convergere nell'esito beffardo tracciato a punta secca dalla sorte.Rarissimo è incontrare un racconto così calibrato, perfetto in ogni dettaglio, dalla cadenza del fraseggio al susseguirsi delle stagioni, dai colori del paesaggio agli umori dei personaggi, dai tuoni alle risate, fino al senso di prigionia che la neve insinua nell'«estasi del vuoto», nell'incosciente attesa di uno sparo, o della sua eco. E non possiamo che essere grati a Bates per questo incontro.Giovanna Granato ha fatto della traduzione il suo unico mestiere. Oltre a buona parte dell'opera di David Foster Wallace, ha tradotto Colm Tóibín, Edna O'Brien, Flannery O'Connor, Norman Mailer, Emma Cline, Martin Amis, Michel Faber. Nel 2019 ha vinto il premio Letteraria della città di Fano per la traduzione di La casa dei nomi di Colm Tóibín.Diventa un supporter di questo podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/il-posto-delle-parole--1487855/support.IL POSTO DELLE PAROLEascoltare fa pensarehttps://ilpostodelleparole.it/

Twice winner of the Pulitzer Prize, firstly in 1969 for The Armies of the Night and again in 1980 for The Executioner's Song, Norman Mailer's life comes as close as is possible to being the Great American Novel: beyond reason, inexplicable, wonderfully grotesque and addictive.The Naked and the Dead was acclaimed not so much for its intrinsic qualities but rather because it launched a brutally realistic sub-genre of military fiction - Catch 22 and MASH would not exist without it.  In Tough Guy: The Life of Norman Mailer (Bloomsbury, 2023), Richard Bradford combs through Mailer's personal letters - to lovers and editors - which appear to be a rehearsal for his career as a shifty literary narcissist, and which shape the characters of one of the most widely celebrated World War II novels. Bradford strikes again with a merciless biography in which diary entries, journal extracts and newspaper columns set the tone of this study of a controversial figure. From friendships with contemporaries such as James Baldwin, failed correspondences with Hemingway and the Kennedys, to terrible - but justified - criticism of his work by William Faulkner and Eleanor Roosevelt, this book gives a unique, snappy and convincing perspective of Mailer's ferocious personality and writings. Daniel Moran earned his B.A. and M.A. in English from Rutgers University and his Ph.D. in History from Drew University. The author of Creating Flannery O'Connor: Her Critics, Her Publishers, Her Readers, he teaches research and writing at Rutgers and co-hosts the podcast Fifteen-Minute Film Fanatics (Twitter @15MinFilm). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

Twice winner of the Pulitzer Prize, firstly in 1969 for The Armies of the Night and again in 1980 for The Executioner's Song, Norman Mailer's life comes as close as is possible to being the Great American Novel: beyond reason, inexplicable, wonderfully grotesque and addictive.The Naked and the Dead was acclaimed not so much for its intrinsic qualities but rather because it launched a brutally realistic sub-genre of military fiction - Catch 22 and MASH would not exist without it.  In Tough Guy: The Life of Norman Mailer (Bloomsbury, 2023), Richard Bradford combs through Mailer's personal letters - to lovers and editors - which appear to be a rehearsal for his career as a shifty literary narcissist, and which shape the characters of one of the most widely celebrated World War II novels. Bradford strikes again with a merciless biography in which diary entries, journal extracts and newspaper columns set the tone of this study of a controversial figure. From friendships with contemporaries such as James Baldwin, failed correspondences with Hemingway and the Kennedys, to terrible - but justified - criticism of his work by William Faulkner and Eleanor Roosevelt, this book gives a unique, snappy and convincing perspective of Mailer's ferocious personality and writings. Daniel Moran earned his B.A. and M.A. in English from Rutgers University and his Ph.D. in History from Drew University. The author of Creating Flannery O'Connor: Her Critics, Her Publishers, Her Readers, he teaches research and writing at Rutgers and co-hosts the podcast Fifteen-Minute Film Fanatics (Twitter @15MinFilm). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/literary-studies

Twice winner of the Pulitzer Prize, firstly in 1969 for The Armies of the Night and again in 1980 for The Executioner's Song, Norman Mailer's life comes as close as is possible to being the Great American Novel: beyond reason, inexplicable, wonderfully grotesque and addictive.The Naked and the Dead was acclaimed not so much for its intrinsic qualities but rather because it launched a brutally realistic sub-genre of military fiction - Catch 22 and MASH would not exist without it.  In Tough Guy: The Life of Norman Mailer (Bloomsbury, 2023), Richard Bradford combs through Mailer's personal letters - to lovers and editors - which appear to be a rehearsal for his career as a shifty literary narcissist, and which shape the characters of one of the most widely celebrated World War II novels. Bradford strikes again with a merciless biography in which diary entries, journal extracts and newspaper columns set the tone of this study of a controversial figure. From friendships with contemporaries such as James Baldwin, failed correspondences with Hemingway and the Kennedys, to terrible - but justified - criticism of his work by William Faulkner and Eleanor Roosevelt, this book gives a unique, snappy and convincing perspective of Mailer's ferocious personality and writings. Daniel Moran earned his B.A. and M.A. in English from Rutgers University and his Ph.D. in History from Drew University. The author of Creating Flannery O'Connor: Her Critics, Her Publishers, Her Readers, he teaches research and writing at Rutgers and co-hosts the podcast Fifteen-Minute Film Fanatics (Twitter @15MinFilm). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/jewish-studies

Twice winner of the Pulitzer Prize, firstly in 1969 for The Armies of the Night and again in 1980 for The Executioner's Song, Norman Mailer's life comes as close as is possible to being the Great American Novel: beyond reason, inexplicable, wonderfully grotesque and addictive.The Naked and the Dead was acclaimed not so much for its intrinsic qualities but rather because it launched a brutally realistic sub-genre of military fiction - Catch 22 and MASH would not exist without it.  In Tough Guy: The Life of Norman Mailer (Bloomsbury, 2023), Richard Bradford combs through Mailer's personal letters - to lovers and editors - which appear to be a rehearsal for his career as a shifty literary narcissist, and which shape the characters of one of the most widely celebrated World War II novels. Bradford strikes again with a merciless biography in which diary entries, journal extracts and newspaper columns set the tone of this study of a controversial figure. From friendships with contemporaries such as James Baldwin, failed correspondences with Hemingway and the Kennedys, to terrible - but justified - criticism of his work by William Faulkner and Eleanor Roosevelt, this book gives a unique, snappy and convincing perspective of Mailer's ferocious personality and writings. Daniel Moran earned his B.A. and M.A. in English from Rutgers University and his Ph.D. in History from Drew University. The author of Creating Flannery O'Connor: Her Critics, Her Publishers, Her Readers, he teaches research and writing at Rutgers and co-hosts the podcast Fifteen-Minute Film Fanatics (Twitter @15MinFilm). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/american-studies

Twice winner of the Pulitzer Prize, firstly in 1969 for The Armies of the Night and again in 1980 for The Executioner's Song, Norman Mailer's life comes as close as is possible to being the Great American Novel: beyond reason, inexplicable, wonderfully grotesque and addictive.The Naked and the Dead was acclaimed not so much for its intrinsic qualities but rather because it launched a brutally realistic sub-genre of military fiction - Catch 22 and MASH would not exist without it.  In Tough Guy: The Life of Norman Mailer (Bloomsbury, 2023), Richard Bradford combs through Mailer's personal letters - to lovers and editors - which appear to be a rehearsal for his career as a shifty literary narcissist, and which shape the characters of one of the most widely celebrated World War II novels. Bradford strikes again with a merciless biography in which diary entries, journal extracts and newspaper columns set the tone of this study of a controversial figure. From friendships with contemporaries such as James Baldwin, failed correspondences with Hemingway and the Kennedys, to terrible - but justified - criticism of his work by William Faulkner and Eleanor Roosevelt, this book gives a unique, snappy and convincing perspective of Mailer's ferocious personality and writings. Daniel Moran earned his B.A. and M.A. in English from Rutgers University and his Ph.D. in History from Drew University. The author of Creating Flannery O'Connor: Her Critics, Her Publishers, Her Readers, he teaches research and writing at Rutgers and co-hosts the podcast Fifteen-Minute Film Fanatics (Twitter @15MinFilm). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/journalism

Georgio, rappeur, a découvert tard qu'il pouvait aimer lire. Mais il s'est bien rattrapé depuis. Il aurait pu venir au micro de Passion Passions pour dire combien il aime la littérature en général. Mais ça n'aurait pas été Passion Passions, ça aurait été La Grande Librairie. Il aurait pu venir se confier sur son dernier album, Gloria, et sur sa tournée en répondant à des question écrites sur des panneaux en carton, mais ça aurait été Quotidien. Alors il est plutôt venu évoquer sa passion pour un livre en particulier : Le Combat du siècle, de Norman Mailer. Dans cet épisode, on parle donc du Combat du siècle, de Norman Mailer ; du "combat du siècle", commandé par le dictateur Mobutu, qui opposa Mohamed Ali et George Foreman au Zaïre en 1974 ; et de la passion des détails et des impressions personnelles de Norman Mailer. Attention, spoiler : à un moment, Georgio vous dévoile qui a gagné le combat. Mais bon, c'était il y a 51 ans, c'est pas plus mal de se mettre à jour. Hébergé par Acast. Visitez acast.com/privacy pour plus d'informations.

For lonely young men who have forgotten how to read, the LA Times book critic Bethanne Patrick some some simple advice: Get Queer Quicker. And to make her point, Patrick discusses five great books on today's male identity crisis - including from Keen On alums like Jessa Crispin and Andrew Lipstein. Patrick argues that reports of the literary man's death are greatly exaggerated - he's just evolved beyond the Philip Roth archetype. From Michael Douglas movies to Danish masculinity models, from toxic fathers to cross-dressing ceramicists, these books reveal how modern men are navigating identity in an era where traditional patriarchal roles have crumbled, replaced by what Crispin calls a system where "you just need to buy your way to the top." So today's anxiety-ridden men who want to get beyond the self-stimulation of Portnoy's Complaint, go to your local (indie) bookstore and GQQ. You'll find that the pages of today's books on the dilemma of maleness are a lot less sticky. 1. The Literary Man Hasn't Disappeared—He's DiversifiedReports of the "death" of literary men are exaggerated. Today's prestigious male writers are just "less likely to also be straight and white"—think Ocean Vuong, Kwame Alexander, and Alexander Chee rather than Philip Roth and Norman Mailer.2. Gen Z is "Getting Queerer Quicker"Younger generations are rejecting rigid gender binaries in literature and life, refusing categories like "romances are for women, thrillers are for men." They're making intentional choices about identity rather than accepting traditional roles.3. The Crisis is About Class, Not Just GenderBoth Jessica Crispin and Jared Yates Sexton argue that male identity crisis stems from economic inequality. The old patriarchy based on "role and responsibilities" was replaced by a system where "you just need to buy your way to the top"—leaving working-class men adrift.4. Men Need Permission to Read DiverselyPatrick's husband didn't read fiction until audiobooks gave him privacy from judgment. Men face social anxiety about being seen reading "feminine" genres, but when freed from scrutiny, they explore widely—from cozy mysteries to historical novels by women.5. Publishing's Gender ParadoxThe industry is "largely female...up to a certain level, but the C-suite people are still predominantly male." This creates resistance to books addressing men's real struggles, making important works like Richard Reeves' Of Boys and Men hard to publish through traditional channels.Keen On America is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit keenon.substack.com/subscribe

Becky, Jo, and Holly talk about books of the 1960s including: To Kill A Mockingbird by Harper Lee, Franny and Zooey by J.D. Salinger, From the Mixed Up Files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler by E.L. Konigsburg, The Very Hungry Caterpillar by Eric Carle, Where the Wild Things Are by Maurice Sendak, Rosemary's Baby by Ira Levin, The Outsiders by S.E. Hinton, The Young Unicorns by Madeline L'Engle, Miami and the Siege of Chicago by Norman Mailer and much more! Holly recommends: The Acid Queen by Susannah Cahalan, The Life You Save May Be Your Own by Paul Elie, The Fire Is Upon Us by Nicholas Buccola, The Moviegoer by Walker Percy

We're still not done with Libra – or Libra is not done with us! In Episode 28, DDSWTNP pick up threads left hanging after our three-part treatment of DeLillo's JFK novel. While tackling a wide variety of subjects, this episode homes in on Anthony DeCurtis's 1988 interview with DeLillo for Rolling Stone (and later re-published in expanded form), “An Outsider in This Society.” We're led to discuss DeLillo's canny interview articulations in general, his method of writing by day and reading more history by night, and his reply to the suggestion that on the basis of Libra some readers regarded him as “a member of the paranoid left”: “I don't have a program.” Along the way we also draw in vivid evidence of how DeLillo subtly reworked the voice of Marguerite Oswald from testimony in the Warren Report, what fellow Oswald novelist Norman Mailer had to say about Libra, and all that is illuminated by an exchange of letters to the New York Times between DeLillo and one of the Warren Report investigators. We also try here to understand as fully as possible the nuances of DeLillo's ideas about historical fiction that emerge in the incredible DeCurtis interview: what DeLillo means when he says Libra is “a piece of work which is obviously fiction,” touts novels' ability to “redeem” readers' “despair,” and makes the powerful claim that “fiction rescues history from its confusions.” We quote enough that listeners will get plenty of insight even without having read the DeCurtis interview in full, and we look forward to applying many of the lessons about history learned here to future works like Underworld. “Some stories never end,” as DeLillo writes to begin “Assassination Aura,” and that's true of this episode's cover image, which uses a National Enquirer cover from March 2025 about new releases of JFK files. The interlude clip near the beginning is from Oswald's August 1963 interviews on WDSU-TV in New Orleans. Finally, as we note in the episode, thanks to Joel in Toronto for an Instagram comment (we're @delillopodcast) that inspired our return to the DeCurtis interview. Texts mentioned and discussed in this episode: Aristotle, Poetics. Trans. S.H. Butcher. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1974/1974-h/1974-h.htm Roland Barthes, “The Death of the Author.” Trans. Richard Howard. https://writing.upenn.edu/~taransky/Barthes.pdf David W. Belin, “‘Libra' and History.” Letter to the editor, New York Times, September 4, 1988. https://www.nytimes.com/1988/09/04/books/l-libra-and-history-487988.html Mark Binelli, “Intensity of a Plot [interview with Don DeLillo].” Guernica, July 17, 2007. https://www.guernicamag.com/intensity_of_a_plot/ Marc Caputo, “CIA admits shadowy officer monitored Oswald before JFK assassination, new records reveal.” Axios, July 5, 2025.https://www.axios.com/2025/07/05/cia-agent-oswald-kennedy-assassination Hal Crowther, “Clinging to the Rock: A Novelist's Choices in the New Mediocracy.” In Introducing Don DeLillo, ed. Frank Lentricchia, Duke UP, 1991, 83-98. Anthony DeCurtis, “‘An Outsider in This Society': An Interview with Don DeLillo.” South Atlantic Quarterly (1990) 89 (2): 281-304.            (Expanded version of Rolling Stone interview published November 17, 1988 (see https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/qa-don-delillo-69452/). Also published in this expanded form in Introducing Don DeLillo, ed. Frank Lentricchia, Duke UP, 1991, 43-66; and in Conversations with Don DeLillo, ed. Thomas DePietro, Jackson: U of Mississippi P, 2005, 52-74. See as well https://perival.com/delillo/ddinterviews.html.) Don DeLillo, “Jack Ruby's Timing.” Letter to the editor [reply to David W. Belin], New York Times, October 2, 1988. https://www.nytimes.com/1988/10/02/books/l-jack-ruby-s-timing-312488.html Paul Edwards, “Libra at Steppenwolf: John Malkovich Adapts Don DeLillo.” Text and Performance Quarterly (1995) 15:3, 206-228. Gerald Howard, “The American Strangeness: An Interview with Don DeLillo.” Hungry Mind Review, 1997. (“Mailer calls him Doctor Joyce. You and I know that he's a priest.”)http://web.archive.org/web/19990129081431/www.bookwire.com/hmr/hmrinterviews.article$2563 Douglas Keesey, Don DeLillo. New York: Twayne Publishers, 1993. On DeLillo's creation of Marguerite Oswald, see pp. 194-96. Thomas LeClair, “An Interview with Don DeLillo,” Contemporary Literature 23.1 (1982): 19-31. (Republished in DePietro, ed., Conversations.) Norman Mailer, Letter to Don DeLillo, August 25, 1988. In Selected Letters of Norman Mailer. Ed. J. Michael Lennon. New York: Random House, 2014. 1092. David Remnick, “Exile on Main Street [interview with Don DeLillo].” New Yorker, September 7, 1997. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1997/09/15/exile-on-main-street-don-delillo-profile-remnick Jean Stafford, A Mother in History. New York: Farrar Straus & Giroux, 1966. David Streitfeld, “Don DeLillo's Gloomy Muse.” Washington Post, May 13, 1992. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1992/05/14/don-delillos-gloomy-muse/5187a6b7-f1f4-4199-9c05-f0b78cc77777/ George F. Will, “Shallow Look at the Mind of an Assassin [review of Libra].” Washington Post, September 22, 1988 (Libra as “an act of literary vandalism and bad citizenship”). Errata: It was Voltaire – not Pascal or Rousseau – who said, “If God did not exist it would be necessary to invent him.” And Underworld's 1990s scenes begin in 1992, not 1991.

"Eminent Jews" author and New Yorker writer David Denby discusses Leonard Bernstein, Mel Brooks, Betty Friedan, and Norman Mailer in this conversation about identity, legacy, and the American Jewish experience with political commentator Joe Klein in a program of the Temple Emanu-El Streicker Center.

We're talking with historian and journalist Tim Shenk about creating a professional relationship with our writing. In addition to being an assistant professor of history at George Washington University, Tim is a senior editor at Dissent magazine, and has written for the New York Times, the Nation, the New Republic, and Jacobin, among other publications. He is also the author of three books, most recently, Left Adrift: What Happened to Liberal Politics. Tim talks with us about balancing academic and journalistic writing; a typical writing day; how academics come to write op-eds in publications such as the NYT; what it means to shift away from a grad student mentality about writing; why good writing begets more good writing; what an academic can expect from a trade press editor; why academic move back and forth between academic and trade presses for different kinds of projects; and why it's a good idea for academic writers to sometimes curb our inner Norman Mailer. Don't forget to rate and review our show and follow us on all social media platforms here: https://linktr.ee/writingitpodcast Contact us with questions, possible future topics/guests, or comments here: https://writingit.fireside.fm/contact

Goodfellas meets Savages meets Catch Me If You Can in this true tale of high-stakes smuggling from pot's outlaw years. Richard Stratton was the unlikeliest of kingpins. A clean-cut Wellesley boy who entered outlaw culture on a trip to Mexico, he saw his search for a joint morph into a thrill-filled dope run, smuggling two kilos across the border in his car door. He became a member of the Hippie Mafia, traveling the world to keep America high, living the underground life while embracing the hippie credo, rejecting hard drugs in favor of marijuana and hashish. With cameos by Whitey Bulger and Norman Mailer, Smuggler's Blues tells Stratton's adventure while centering on his last years as he travels from New York to Lebanon's Bekaa Valley to source and smuggle high-grade hash in the midst of civil war, from the Caribbean to the backwoods of Maine, and from the Chelsea Hotel to the Plaza as his fortunes rise and fall. All the while he is being pursued by his nemesis, a philosophical DEA agent who respects him for his good business practices. A true-crime story that sounds like fiction, Smuggler's Blues is a psychedelic road trip through international drug smuggling, the hippie underground, and the war on weed. As Big Marijuana emerges, it brings to vivid life an important chapter in pot's cultural history.https://amzn.to/3TMQu4xBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-opperman-report--1198501/support.

In 2003, when the author James Frey published his first book, A Million Little Pieces—a gut-punch account of his experience with addiction and rehab—nobody could have expected what would come next. Thanks to an Oprah Book Club endorsement, A Million Little Pieces was instantly catapulted to bestseller status, but soon blew up in scandal after Frey admitted to having falsified certain portions of the book, which had been marketed as a memoir. The drama that ensued sparked a media controversy—one that now, around 20 years later, feels petty and misplaced, especially in the context of today's cancel-culture climate. More than 10 million copies of A Million Little Pieces have sold since, and Frey is still at it, writing, publishing, and pushing the boundaries of his art. His latest novel, Next to Heaven, is a rollicking, raunchy, absurd-yet-not satire about money, murder, and the all-too-human desires for power, pleasure, and greed. On the episode—our Season 11 finale, in which Frey sat lotus for the entire duration—he reflects on the A Million Little Pieces saga; his long-term study of Taoism; writing as a gateway to vulnerability; and why love, for him, is the greatest drug there is.Special thanks to our Season 11 presenting sponsor, Van Cleef & Arpels.Show notes:James Frey[5:08] “Tao Te Ching”[5:08] Lao Tzu[5:08] Stephen Mitchell[5:08] Taoism[8:51] Cubism[13:11] “A Million Little Pieces” (2003)[14:16] “Next To Heaven” (2025)[14:16] New Canaan, Connecticut[17:14] Jackie Collins[17:14] “Hollywood Wives” (1983)[17:14] Danielle Steel[21:35] Honoré de Balzac[29:37] “Katerina” (2018) [29:37] “Full Fathom Five” (1947) by Jackson Pollock[37:14] “Larry King Live” (2006)[39:09] “Tropic of Cancer” (1971)[42:24] “Up to Me” (1985)[44:20] “Kissing a Fool” (1998)[52:22] “My Friend Leonard” (2005)[52:22] “Bright Shiny Morning” (2008)[52:22] “The Final Testament” (2011)[58:56] “Author Is Kicked Out of Oprah Winfrey's Book Club”[58:56] “James Frey: ‘I Always Wanted to Be the Outlaw'”[01:03:18] Bret Easton Ellis[01:03:18] Jay McInerney[01:03:18] Norman Mailer[01:10:54] Rashid Johnson[01:10:54] HBO's “Native Son” (2019)

So who killed JFK? We still don't know, but we're concluding our series on DeLillo's conspiratorial history with Episode 27: Libra (3). This episode begins by focusing on the unexpected injection of humor and depth that comes with Jack Ruby, another reluctant shooter, in the novel's second part. We draw into this episode some comparisons of Libra to other artists' paranoid visions of conspiracy, including Oliver Stone, Norman Mailer, and Thomas Pynchon. We spend ample time on the newspaper-clipping and TV-watching of CIA wife Beryl Parmenter, one of several figures here who make Libra a canny narrative of media and information history. And we close with detailed debate and speculation about why DeLillo's concluding “Author's Note” – with its powerful notion that “readers may find refuge here” – has changed over the years. Like Nicholas Branch, we're overwhelmed by all that still could be said about Libra (and we may still say it in a future episode!), but we conclude our three-part analysis here. References and corrections for this episode: “Don DeLillo: The Word, the Image, and the Gun.” BBC Documentary, September 27, 1991. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DTePKA1wgc Sigmund Freud, “Mourning and Melancholia.” chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~cavitch/pdf-library/Freud_MourningAndMelancholia.pdf JFK (dir. Oliver Stone, 1991). Frank Lentricchia, “Libra as Postmodern Critique.” In Frank Lentricchia, ed., Introducing Don DeLillo (Durham, NC: Duke U. Press, 1991), 193-215. George F. Will, “Shallow Look at the Mind of an Assassin.” Washington Post, September 22, 1988. Correction and references on Carmine Latta and Sam Giancana: DeLillo's character Carmine Latta is indeed based on Carlos Marcello (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Marcello), but we misstate the name of mobster Sam Giancana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Giancana). Interlude clips include the voices of Jack Ruby and Marguerite Oswald.

With his fantastic new book, EMINENT JEWS (Holt), writer and critic David Denby explores the impact on American culture of Jews Unbound through profiles of Leonard Bernstein, Mel Brooks, Betty Friedan, and Norman Mailer. We talk about how he selected his four subjects, how each of them came of age in an environment that Jews hadn't experienced in millennia, the ways each handled the responsibilities of family against their careers, the difference between "Jew" and "Jewish," and which one unfolded the most to him over the course of writing the book. We get into why Bernstein's greatest role may have been as a teacher, how Mailer's magnetism persisted way beyond its expiration date, how Friedan changed the world but was always challenged by her midwest upbringing, and whether Brooks was being disingenuous when he made musical numbers of our the Inquisition and Hitler. We also discuss judgements David made over the course of his career as a movie critic, what he did when he finally gave up reviewing and how he eased back into the cinema, why he revisited the Lit Hum course at Columbia a few years ago, after previously revisiting it 30+ years ago for Great Books, his take on my my lightning round of classic lit questions, his non-Le Carré experience in East Berlin, his reaction to my parents taking me to History of the World: Part 1 when I was 9, and more. Follow David on Instagram • More info at our site • Support The Virtual Memories Show via Stripe, Patreon, or Paypal, and subscribe to our e-newsletter

New York Times bestselling author, veteran film critic, and New Yorker staff writer David Denby chats with Zibby about EMINENT JEWS, which profiles Leonard Bernstein, Mel Brooks, Betty Friedan, and Norman Mailer. The conversation spans from Denby's early years under the mentorship of Pauline Kael to his decades-long career at The New Yorker, before diving into the cultural impact and complex legacies of the book's four iconic Jewish figures. Along the way, they discuss the evolution of Jewish identity in American media, the legacy of Bernstein as portrayed in Bradley Cooper's Maestro, Mel Brooks' fearless comedy, and what it means to reclaim the word "Jew."Purchase on Bookshop: https://bit.ly/42QJ84lShare, rate, & review the podcast, and follow Zibby on Instagram @zibbyowens! Now there's more! Subscribe to Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books on Acast+ and get ad-free episodes. https://plus.acast.com/s/moms-dont-have-time-to-read-books. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

When Mary Dearborn finished her doctorate at Columbia University she knew she wanted to write biography. She went on to a forty-plus year career in writing biographies whose subjects including Peggy Guggenheim, Norman Mailer, Henry Miller, Ernest Hemingway, Anzia Yezierska, and most recently Carson McCullers. We talk about the challenges of writing biography for trade press publications; writing the trade press book proposal; changes in the publishing industry; reaching a broader readership; struggling with self-promotion and changing social media norms; and why it's invigorating to remember that presses actually need good writers. Don't forget to rate and review our show and follow us on all social media platforms here: https://linktr.ee/writingitpodcast Contact us with questions, possible future topics/guests, or comments here: https://writingit.fireside.fm/contact

Who are the most symbolic mid 20th century American Jews? In Eminent Jews, New Yorker staff writer David Denby tells the remarkable stories of Leonard Bernstein, Mel Brooks, Betty Friedan, and Norman Mailer. He explains how each embodied a new Jewish confidence after WWII, contrasting with earlier generations' restraint. Each figure pushed boundaries in their own way - Bernstein through his musical versatility, Brooks through his boundary-pushing humor about Jewish experiences, Friedan through her feminist theories, and Mailer through his provocative writing style. Five key takeaways * Post-WWII Jewish Americans displayed a newfound confidence and willingness to stand out publicly, unlike previous generations who were more cautious about drawing attention to their Jewishness.* The four figures in Denby's book (Bernstein, Brooks, Friedan, and Mailer) each embraced their Jewish identity differently, while becoming prominent in American culture in their respective fields.* Mel Brooks used humor, particularly about Jewish experiences and historical trauma, as both a defense mechanism and a way to assert Jewish presence and resilience.* Each figure pushed against the restraint of previous Jewish generations - Bernstein through his expressive conducting and openness about his complex sexuality, Friedan through her feminist activism, and Mailer through his aggressive literary style.* Rejecting the notion that a Jewish "golden age" has ended, Denby believes that despite current challenges including campus anti-Semitism, American Jews continue to thrive and excel disproportionately to their population size.David Denby is a staff writer at The New Yorker. He served as a film critic for the magazine from 1998 to 2014. His first article for The New Yorker, “Does Homer Have Legs?,” published in 1993, grew into a book, “Great Books: My Adventures with Homer, Rousseau, Woolf, and Other Indestructible Writers of the Western World,” about reading the literary canon at Columbia University. His other subjects for the magazine have included the Scottish Enlightenment, the writers Susan Sontag and James Agee, and the movie directors Clint Eastwood and the Coen brothers. In 1991, he received a National Magazine Award for three of his articles on high-end audio. Before joining The New Yorker, he was the film critic at New York magazine for twenty years; his writing has also appeared in The Atlantic, The New York Review of Books, and The New Republic. He is the editor of “Awake in the Dark: An Anthology of Film Criticism, 1915 to the Present” and the author of “American Sucker”; “Snark”; “Do the Movies Have a Future?,” a collection that includes his film criticism from the magazine; and “Lit Up,” a study of high-school English teaching. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit keenon.substack.com/subscribe

Holly screams "Oh man! Oh God! Oh man!" after a viewing of Tough Guys Don't Dance (1987), a bonkers, sleazy, drug and sex fueled neo-noir from novelist turned director Norman Mailer. The late, demented Wings Hauser co-stars alongside Ryan O'Neal, who plays an ex-con with two severed heads in his drug stash. Listen as we try to sort out the most convoluted mystery plot since The Maltese Falcon featuring grifters, witches, sadomasochists, and more on this week's exciting episode! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Merriam-Webster's Word of the Day for March 1, 2025 is: factoid • FAK-toyd • noun A factoid is a brief and usually unimportant or trivial fact. Factoid may also refer to an invented fact believed to be true because it appears in print. // The book is really just a collection of interesting factoids. See the entry > Examples: "Straight from the [Lake Como, Italy] hotel docks, our captain showed us around the various villas and properties dotted around the lake, peppering in some historical and pop-culture factoids, like how the idyllic Villa Balbianello was featured in the Star Wars prequel films." — Nashia Baker, Architectural Digest, 7 Dec. 2024 Did you know? In his 1973 book Marilyn (about Marilyn Monroe), Norman Mailer describes factoids as "facts which have no existence before appearing in a magazine or newspaper, creations which are not so much lies as a product to manipulate emotion in the Silent Majority." Mailer's use of the -oid suffix (which traces back to the ancient Greek word eidos, meaning "appearance" or "form") follows in the pattern of humanoid: just as a humanoid appears to be human but is not, a factoid appears to be factual but is not. The word has since evolved so that now it most often refers to things that decidedly are facts, just not ones that are significant.

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit smokeempodcast.substack.comEli Lake is not a historian but a “journalist who loves history.” The former “Re-Education of Eli Lake” host and current Free Press contributor comes on Smoke for the second time to discuss his latest pop-history podcast, “Why We're Obsessed with JFK Conspiracies.” As usual, Lake puts his own distinctive spin on a story that may have been told before, yes, but not this way.First, though, Nancy and Sarah have to talk to Eli about Israel. Eli explains that what happened to the Bibas family has hardened his heart, but he's trying not to let it radicalize him. We talk morals and ideologies, the horrors of war, and the necessities for civil society.Also discussed:* “A rabbit hole the country has never been able to climb out of”* Eli teaches Sarah some Yiddish* “If Baruch Goldstein had been Palestinian, they'd be naming schools after him.”* Gaza-lago?* On conspiracy susceptibility: “It's either, ‘You're a moron' or, ‘How can you be so naive, kid?” And yet we want to believe …* Eli coins new and helpful word: Mono-cause* JFK is the “octopus conspiracy”* Even LBJ thought something weird was going on …* The unspeakable abuses exposed by the Church Committee* We are a pro-Norman Mailer podcast!* Nancy says something profound?* Sarah quotes Timothee Chalamet award speech, nobody cares* Editor's note: Hal Ashby directed Harold and Maude* Second editor's note: Waylon Jennings sand Dukes of Hazzard theme song* “What happened to normal movies?”* The Emilia Perez kerfuffle is so 2020Plus, Eli is such a good guest he brought his own outro (AND wrote Nancy a Sleater-Kinneyesque theme for her new interview series CHEFS TALK), Nancy and Sarah wrassle over what movie wins Best Picture, we imagine a woke Dukes of Hazzard, and much more!

Here's a fun share from American author Norman Mailer on the Hipster's relationship to sexuality and orgasm. Enjoy!*Source: "The White Negro" by Norman Mailer (1957)

David Lynch passed away on January 15th, 2025, leaving behind a body of work that reshaped the landscape of cinema and television. Few artists have delved as deeply into the strange, the beautiful, and the terrifying as Lynch, and few have had as profound an influence on Weird Studies. His films have long been a touchstone for JF and Phil's discussions on art, philosophy, and the nature of the weird. To honor his memory, they decided to devote an episode to Lynch's work as a whole, with special attention paid to Eraserhead—the nightmarish debut that announced his singular vision to the world. A study in dread, desire, and the uncanny, Eraserhead remains one of the most disturbing and mysterious works of American cinema. In this episode, we explore what makes it so powerful and how it connects to Lynch's larger artistic project. To enroll in JF's new Weirdosphere course, It's All Real: An Inquiry Into the Reality of the Supernatural, please visit www.weirdosphere.org. The course starts on Thursday, Feb 6, at 8 pm Eastern. A video for the piece For David Lynch is available on Pierre-Yves Martel's YouTube channel (https://youtu.be/3d73NWXWgyY?si=kHr9yZV2As9wLzSe). REFERENCES David Lynch, Eraserhead (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074486/) David Lynch: The Art Life (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1691152/) Victorian Nelson, The Secret Life of Puppets (https://bookshop.org/a/18799/9780674012448) Norman Mailer, An American Dream (https://bookshop.org/a/18799/9780812986136) Laura Adams, "Existential Aesthetics: An Interview with Norman Mailer” George P. Hansen, The Trickster and the Paranormal (https://bookshop.org/a/18799/9781401000820) Carl Jung, The Red Book (https://bookshop.org/a/18799/9780393065671) Jack Arnold (dir.), The Creature from the Black Lagoon (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046876/) Noel Caroll, The Philosophy of Horror (https://bookshop.org/a/18799/9780415902168) Gilles Deleuze, The Logic of Sense (https://bookshop.org/a/18799/9780231059831) Jack Smith, “The Perfect Filmic Appositeness of Maria Montez” (https://www.scribd.com/document/249415272/The-Perfect-Filmic-Appositeness-of-Maria-Montez) David Foster Wallace, “David Lynch Keeps his Head” in A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never do Again (https://bookshop.org/a/18799/9780316925280) Arthur Machen, The White People (https://shortstoryproject.com/stories/the-white-people/) William Shakespeare, Macbeth (https://bookshop.org/a/18799/9781451694727)

J. Michael Lennon, Emeritus Professor of English at Wilkes University in Wilkes-Barre and authorized biographer of Norman Mailer: "Norman Mailer: A Double Life" issued by Simon & Schuster, speaking about the recently released work by Mailer titled, "Lipton's: Mailer's Marijuana Journal: 1954-55" co-edited with G.R. Lucas and Susan Mailer. Also about a recent documentary, "How to Come Alive with Norman Mailer" by Jeff Zimbalist and released by Zeitgeist Films. For more information: www.jmichaellennon.com/ www.zeitgeistfilms.com/

This Day in Legal History: Gary Gilmore ExecutedOn January 17, 1977, Gary Gilmore was executed by firing squad in Utah, becoming the first person to be put to death in the United States after a 10-year pause in capital punishment. This execution followed the Supreme Court's landmark 1976 decision in Gregg v. Georgia, which reinstated the death penalty under revised statutes that addressed prior concerns about arbitrariness and fairness. Gilmore had been convicted of two murders committed during robberies in Utah and notably refused to appeal his death sentence, demanding instead that it be carried out promptly.His case drew significant public and media attention, particularly as it coincided with the reopening of the death penalty debate in the U.S. After the Supreme Court's 1972 decision in Furman v. Georgia temporarily invalidated capital punishment, states had revised their laws to provide more structured sentencing guidelines. Gilmore's execution marked the first test of those reforms.The event reignited intense national debates over the morality, fairness, and efficacy of capital punishment. Proponents argued that it served as a deterrent and a just response to heinous crimes, while critics questioned its alignment with human rights principles and pointed to racial and socioeconomic disparities in its application. The firing squad method itself sparked further controversy over humane execution practices.Gilmore's case also influenced popular culture, inspiring Norman Mailer's Pulitzer Prize-winning book The Executioner's Song. His willingness to accept the penalty became a focal point in discussions about agency and justice within the death penalty system. The debates sparked by his execution continue to shape U.S. legal discourse, reflecting unresolved tensions over capital punishment in the American legal system.Pam Bondi, Trump's pick for attorney general, disclosed a net worth of $12.2 million, including nearly $3 million in Trump Media shares received after the public debut of Truth Social's parent company last year. Her financial disclosures, submitted during the Senate confirmation process, revealed significant earnings linked to Trump-related entities since leaving public service in 2019. Bondi earned $1.1 million as a lobbyist with Ballard Partners, a firm led by Trump fundraiser Brian Ballard, and $520,000 from the Trump-affiliated America First Policy Institute.She also reported earning $203,738 in 2024 as a lawyer with Panza, Maurer & Maynard, where her clients included Pfizer. Bondi's stake in Trump Media Technology Group includes $3 million in stock and warrants valued at $3.9 million as of December 2024, acquired as compensation for consulting services. Her financial disclosures showed $1.7 million in liabilities, largely from real estate mortgages and notes payable to relatives. Democrats expressed concerns about her close ties to Trump during her Senate hearing, questioning her independence if confirmed as attorney general.Trump AG Pick Bondi Discloses $3 Million in Truth Social StockDemocratic attorneys general are preparing to defend key Biden administration policies as Donald Trump is set to begin his second term as president. With Trump's plans to reverse rules on immigration, the environment, and transgender rights, AGs from over a dozen states, including California, New Jersey, and Michigan, have moved to intervene in legal cases. One major effort involves defending a Biden rule providing health insurance to immigrants brought to the U.S. as children, which is currently challenged by Republican AGs.These Democratic coalitions are also seeking to uphold Biden-era regulations on environmental protections, gun dealers, and firearm devices that allow rapid firing. New Jersey AG Matt Platkin emphasized their focus on protecting residents' rights and ensuring Trump's administration adheres to the rule of law. This strategy mirrors actions during Trump's first term when Democratic AGs filed 155 lawsuits against his policies, achieving an 83% success rate. However, the current legal landscape presents new challenges, with a more conservative judiciary shaped by Trump's earlier appointments. Democratic AG offices, however, are now more experienced, having honed their strategies in prior legal battles. Political experts anticipate numerous lawsuits targeting executive actions Trump may issue early in his term.Democratic states brace for Trump by launching defense of Biden policies | ReutersIn the latest development of the ongoing saga surrounding 97-year-old Judge Pauline Newman, the Federal Circuit's Judicial Council has dismissed her appeal against suspension as "meritless." In a brief filed with the DC Circuit, the Council, alongside the Department of Justice, argued that Newman's claim—that her suspension amounts to unconstitutional removal without impeachment—should be rejected under the Judicial Conduct and Disability Act.Judge Newman, the oldest active federal judge, was suspended after refusing to cooperate with an investigation into her mental fitness. Her second one-year suspension from hearing new cases remains in effect, though the government maintains it is not permanent and could be lifted if she agrees to participate in the inquiry. Newman has challenged the suspension through administrative proceedings and an appeal in the DC Circuit, where her court, known for its jurisdiction over patent cases, is also located.The brief, representing Chief Judge Kimberly A. Moore and the Judicial Council, asserts that Congress distinguishes temporary suspensions from removal. Newman's legal team, the New Civil Liberties Alliance, continues to argue her case.97-Year-Old Judge's Suspension Appeal 'Meritless,' Council SaysThe Biden administration will leave enforcement of the TikTok ban to the incoming Trump administration, signaling no immediate action to force the app offline when a new law targeting the platform takes effect. While TikTok itself could shut down to highlight the law's impact on its 170 million U.S. users, the Biden administration stated it will not enforce the ban, instead emphasizing that TikTok should operate under American ownership. The law imposes penalties on tech companies like Apple and Google if they continue providing services to TikTok while it remains under ByteDance's ownership, exposing them to significant financial risk. However, any delay in enforcement would require the president to grant an extension under strict conditions, none of which TikTok has met. Efforts in Congress to extend the deadline have stalled, with security concerns raised by lawmakers like Senator Tom Cotton blocking attempts to provide ByteDance with more time to divest.President-elect Trump has signaled openness to negotiating a resolution to keep TikTok operational, citing its value to his campaign and young voters. Discussions within his team include a potential executive order to delay the ban while exploring ways to safeguard user data. The Supreme Court has yet to issue a ruling on the law, though justices have expressed concerns about national security risks tied to TikTok's Chinese ownership. Meanwhile, Democratic leaders, including Senator Chuck Schumer, are urging further action to balance security, privacy, and the platform's continued availability.Biden administration will leave it to Trump to implement TikTok ban - ABC NewsThis week's closing theme is by Giuseppe Verdi (1813-1901). Verdi is one of the most celebrated composers in the history of opera, renowned for his ability to blend dramatic storytelling with deeply emotive music. A central figure in 19th-century Italian opera, Verdi's works, including La Traviata, Rigoletto, and Aida, remain staples of the repertoire worldwide. His music often reflected his passion for Italian nationalism and human emotion, making his operas timeless in their appeal. Among his earliest triumphs was Nabucco (1842), a work that established him as a leading composer and marked the start of his long and illustrious career.Nabucco, Verdi's third opera, tells the story of the plight of the Israelites under the rule of the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar (Nabucco). Its overture, a brilliant instrumental prelude, captures the opera's dramatic intensity and stirring themes. The piece begins with ominous, foreboding chords that hint at the struggles to come, followed by a sweeping and heroic melody that reflects the resilience and hope central to the story. The overture's dynamic shifts and richly textured orchestration showcase Verdi's ability to infuse orchestral music with the same dramatic power found in his vocal writing.Notably, Nabucco became a symbol of Italian unification during the Risorgimento, with its famous chorus "Va, pensiero" resonating as an anthem of liberation. While the overture does not include this iconic melody, it captures the essence of the opera's emotional and political undertones. As this week's closing theme, the Nabucco overture offers a perfect blend of drama, passion, and triumph, embodying Verdi's mastery and the timeless power of his music.Without further ado, Giuseppe Verdi's overture from Nabucco. Enjoy! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.minimumcomp.com/subscribe

Split a pastrami sandwich with Martha Thomases as we discuss her theory that your popularity in high school determines whether you'll move to New York, why she was into DC rather than Marvel at the start of her comics fandom, Denny O'Neil's explanation of the true difference between Metropolis and Gotham City, the realization she had at 35 as to the true reason her parents allowed her to read comics, the weirdness of Little Lotta and Baby Huey, why she was more nervous meeting Denny O'Neil than she was meeting Norman Mailer, how Dakota North was born, our mutual love for the She-Hulk TV series, selling comics to comics fans vs. selling them to potential readers who don't yet know they'd like comics, and much more.

 In their epic showdown, “The Fight of the Century,” Muhammad Ali takes on the Champ, Smokin' Joe Frazier. It's a stunning exhibition of strength, pain, and violence. Their fight is covered by many great writers, who transform Ali into an avatar of the age as they celebrate his ascendance as the People's Champ. A new boxing contender enters the scene: the giant George Foreman while Miriam Makeba wins hearts as she's dubbed Mama Africa by her fans.   REFERENCE MATERIALS: "Ali: A Life" by Jonathan Eig "The Fight" by Norman Mailer "Ego" (Life magazine Cover Story, March 19, 1971) article by Norman Mailer "The Redemption of the Champion" (Life magazine, Sept 9, 1966), article by Gordon Parks "Shadow Box" by George Plimpton  "Ringside: A Treasury of Boxing Reportage" by Budd Schulberg  "The Greatest, My Own Story" by Muhammad Ali (autobiography) "Smokin' Joe" by Joe Frazier and Phil Berger (autobiography) "Smokin' Joe: The Life of Joe Frazier" by Mark Kram Jr.  "By George" by George Foreman (autobiography) Miriam Makeba FBI file (available online at: https://vault.fbi.gov/miriam-makeba)See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lauren Oyler's “Revenge Plot”, a literary diary of her trip to this year's Republican convention in Milwaukee, is the cover story of this month's Harper's. So when I talked today with the Berlin based writer, we discussed both the revengefulness of the Republican party and what she calls the “risk aversion” of the Democrats. While Oyler cares a lot about the outcome of today's election, she is wary of what she calls the “constant catastrophizing” both on the left and right of American politics. While this probably won't be the final election in the history of American democracy, she suggests, it might be the first 21st century Presidential contest not dramatically shaped by the internet. LAUREN OYLER's essays on books and culture appear regularly in The New Yorker, The New York Times Magazine, London Review of Books, Harper's Magazine, Bookforum, and other publications. Born and raised in West Virginia, she now divides her time between New York and Berlin.Named as one of the "100 most connected men" by GQ magazine, Andrew Keen is amongst the world's best known broadcasters and commentators. In addition to presenting KEEN ON, he is the host of the long-running How To Fix Democracy show. He is also the author of four prescient books about digital technology: CULT OF THE AMATEUR, DIGITAL VERTIGO, THE INTERNET IS NOT THE ANSWER and HOW TO FIX THE FUTURE. Andrew lives in San Francisco, is married to Cassandra Knight, Google's VP of Litigation & Discovery, and has two grown children.Keen On is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.TRANSCRIPTAndrew Keen: Hello, everybody. The day has come, it's Tuesday, November the 5th. Election Day. We don't know who's won, but many people are going to the polls. One person who won't be going to the polls is my guest today, Lauren Oyler. She's a distinguished American writer, bestselling writer, essayist, critic. But she happens to be, as I joked before, we went live in exile in Berlin. She lives there in Germany, but she's also the author of an excellent piece, it's the cover story of Harper's this week: "Reunion or Revenge: The GOP Identity Crisis." According to Lauren, they're on the brink. I'm not sure of what. Lauren is joining us from Berlin in Germany. Lauren, what's the view from there? Americans looking as crazy as ever?Lauren Oyler: We're looking for a bar to go to. To be honest, we've been we've been we've been caucusing, trying to figure out where we can watch the the results. And we just found there's one place. But, you know, it doesn't the results aren't really start coming in until midnight here. So the debate is about whether we will stay up--or, people have some bad memories of doing that in 2016. I personally have a bad memory of doing that in 2016 as well. So the view is we're looking at our phones.Keen: So I assume the bad memory was not that you drank too much or ate too much.Oyler: No, I did. I certainly did. I'm just I was with my boyfriend at the time and we had gotten in a fight earlier that day about Hillary Clinton. And I, I just remember being like, I just don't care. I just don't care. And then we went to the bar with our friends and got quite drunk. And and then we were walking home and I didn't live here at the time, so I didn't have we didn't have cell phone service. So we walked home at like three in the morning. We were really drunk and we were like, Well, we won't know anything. And then we got home and we like, laid in bed in the dark and and looked at our phones and we were like, no, this is terrible. So and then just laid in bed again, really drunk looking at our phones.Keen: It's something that could have occurred in one of your books or maybe in a in a DeLillo book. So are the Germans shocked? I mean, they they they've made a culture out of being a shock to other people that they particularly shocked this time around?Oyler: No, I don't think so. I remember right before I went to report this story, I was in a restaurant down the street from my house and I listened to--I was overhearing a conversation with this German guy, was talking to these people and he was like, he was he was like, Yeah, have you heard they have the plague in Colorado now? He's like, Yeah, this is crazy. Imagine if we had the plague in Berlin. Like, it was really like, I don't really think they sort of like, Yeah, this is crazy, but it's, you know, it's not it's not the first time. And I think to and in Europe, it used to be that you were reviled as an American. Certainly when I first moved here in 2012, there was still that kind of anti-American sentiment. But now far right populism has spread across the West and everybody is sort of commiserating with with you and just kind of like, you know, it could happen. It could happen to us at any time. It basically is the idea.Keen: The plague has come home to Germany from Colorado. So let's get to the piece, Lauren, you went to Milwaukee to cover the GOP's identity crisis. And it's a long essay. Very...to use the word Oyler-ish in the sense that it's it's a very creative piece of work, creative nonfiction, although some people might say there's a fictional element there. What was your overall take on this odd convention and why was it that it's almost five months ago now?Oyler: Yeah. Well, I think the big the the big concern that I had going into it was that, you know, you're right, it would be coming out it came out in the middle of October, and I would be reporting on something that had happened in July, which, of course, in the past would have been perfectly normal for this kind of piece of this kind of like literary new journalism type thing. Many, many great pieces about political conventions that I'm sure your listeners, listeners will be familiar with, things like Norman Mailer, they come out late. But, you know, now--Keen: It's timeless as well in their own way. I mean--Oyler: It's supposed to be timeless, but now everybody's sort of attitude towards the news is like, I need to hear it right now. And then it the cycle, the cycle, the cycle and it goes away. So you sort of forget about it. So I kind of was grateful for the assignment because the assignment was basically like write something of lasting literary value about about the circus and spectacle, which was very interesting. And, you know, it was sort of you're following the news as it's happening and you're like, well, I can't really like you just have to be aware of the general narrative as time has gone on, you can't really be too obsessed with anyone's story because as I learned when former President Trump was almost assassinated while I was on the plane there, like something can just completely derail the whole plan. But I had never been to a political convention before. I was surprised at how much I enjoyed doing that kind of reporting. And I was surprised at how at the dissonance between what was being reported by these live up to the minute coverage, like blogs or social media or things like this. The difference between the analysis that those those journalists would generally produce and what I was interested in or even like what I thought the mood was, frankly, as, as the title of the piece and the sort of the tag line suggests, like it was a bit fraught, I think, for the Republicans. I think I think the liberal media generally tends to want to keep to the storyline that they are evil masterminds of the chaos that they saw. But I what I saw there at least, was kind of a fracturing basically.Keen: Right? I mean, I think that the more I watch or listen to liberal media or mainstream media, they behave as if they're the grownups and. And perhaps some of these photos actually underline the fact that it's the Republicans who were the children. For better or worse, they're out of control. They need to be sent to their room and perhaps spanked, although I'm guessing most liberal media people don't believe in spanking anymore. I'm curious, Lauren. I had lunch with Rick MacArthur, the publisher of Harper's few months ago in New York. And like all publishers of traditional magazines, he claims poverty, not enough money to go around. Couldn't you find someone a bit closer? I mean, I assume he paid for you to fly from Berlin to Milwaukee. That's quite a long way. Why didn't he find a local person, or do you think he chose you, or they chose you, the editor chose you because you bring a slightly foreign perspective?Oyler: Do you don't think I'm such a good writer that it's worth flying me over there?Keen: Did they pay for first class?Oyler: No, it was was economy, which was good, actually, because I got I had some interesting conversations with my senior and they did say, you know, we won't pay for paper business, but I did buy the expensive internet in the end. But and I think I was staying in a Hampton Inn. Do you know how do you know how the--Keen: My God. So they put you up in a Hampton Inn?Oyler: Do you know how it works? So when you go to a convention, there's like the convention as the press, the press corps or the convention, if you like, a place to stay. And so many of the delegates were staying like in Madison, Wisconsin, or in Illinois, and I was in the same hotel as the USA Today people. So that speaks to me being like the, you know, the national and the the government's like belief in the value of Harper's magazine in comparison to other other places. So it was maybe like 20 minute drive away anyway. Non sequitur. So why do you think they asked me to go? Maybe because I do have a little bit of foreign perspective, I think to it is not you know, it is nice to have a literary writer juice politics coverage. You know, there's a long history of this. Norman Mailer is a wonderful introduction to this book that I have about ranting about journalists and reporters and why it's important to bring a novelistic eye to things. Joan Didion, obviously famously, and all sorts of other examples. George Saunders did a did a Trump rally in 2016. I think Patricia Lockwood did one as well. So I think there's that kind of tradition that that Harper's is a part of and wants to sort of continue in the face of maybe people saying that literary writing has no place in society anymore. But also, I assume that my being from Appalachia has something to do with it because, yes, as you say, I live in Berlin, but I was born and grew up in West Virginia, and although we did not know J.D. Vance was going to be selected as the VP when they assigned me this piece, it wasn't always a strong possibility. And I think the region sort of exerts a pull on the national media at least every four years. So I would assume that that also has something to do with it.Keen: That's interesting that, you know, the the other side of the Appalachian coin from J.D. Vance. You mentioned earlier, Lauren, that the the media reported on this differently from bloggers and some of the online crowd. What are the differences? Can you generalize about how the USA Today crowd covered it verses bloggers who perhaps weren't there or watching online?Oyler: Yeah, well, I think there is a certain kind of convention story that is just like we're here, there's someone on TV, they're doing a stand up. They have someone shooting them and they're just like, I'm here live at the convention. Like, here's how crazy it is. But the thing that I talk about in the piece especially is this Ezra Klein sort of blog about the convention. And I believe the headline that he wrote was for his podcast about it was I watched the Republican National Convention. Here's whatever, and that kind of dramatic headline style that that has been honed on the Internet--Keen: And this was a New York Times piece--Oyler: Well, the New York Times Piece...I watched the Republican National Convention on television. Why does that...anyone can watch the Republican National Convention on television. And they want it to be like a dramatic sort of...a little bit dangerous feeling that it did have at points. But but the thing that was surprising to me was how unenthusiastic many of the people there were or who were just there because, you know, they go every been ten times or whatever.Keen: I mean, you have some great photos in the piece of people looking pretty miserable, which of course probably makes most of us feel better about it. And I mean this one in particular for people watching a couple of white middle class people with cheese hats, one with a "Make America Great Again" sign, the other, "bring back common sense." They look most uncommon and most miserable.Oyler: And it's not to say that there wasn't, there were many sort of disturbing moments of enthusiasm, I think. But they weren't always the people on stage that you would--the biggest applause that I remember was not for Trump or for J.D. Vance. Of course, those went on forever. But this sort of passion, like the sort of scary passion that the media wants to find it in the Republicans. I noticed it most with Peter Navarro, who had just gotten out of prison that day and offering to give a trial, which was so bizarre and people were just screaming their heads off for him.Keen: And he's a China hater.Oyler: Yes, I can never remember what the sort of White House department of something that they invented that he was the head of. It was some kind of trade council.Keen: Like Go to War with China Department.Oyler: Yes. Yes. And he had just been let out of prison and he was missing a tooth. Which was really bizarre. And then Tucker Carlson, everybody was going crazy for it because he's like a celebrity. But there was not this kind of excitement for, say, Kid Rock or something like this. Or even Hulk Hogan.Keen: Yeah. So here's the question for you. Lauren, I think you're as well-positioned in every sense to to answer this question, which is the question I struggle with and I've talked to I've talked about endlessly on this show and I haven't resolved I'm sure I've bored most of my viewers and listeners. You mentioned Hulk Hogan, of course, the ultimate wrestler. In fact, I had Peter Osnos on the show last week. It was the original editor of Art of the Deal, and he said when he was editing out of the deal, he went with Trump to a wrestling contest, and Trump was enormously popular there back then, 30 or 40 years ago. To what extent is this whole--and I use this word carefully--spectacle, just wrestling. To what extent is it just another version of reality television and everyone understands in an odd kind of way that they're participating in this weird narrative. You've done a lot of thinking and writing on this in terms of the Internet, although some of the people participating in this are pre-Internet people. I mean, Trump is Mr. Reality television. So this goes back before the Internet. But to what extent is this, I don't know, reality, hyper reality, beyond reality, and how does it connect with--there is a reality of America on November the 5th, 2024. I hope that's a--I'm not sure it's a particularly clear question, but gives you an opportunity to talk about how you perceive this whole spectacle or circus.Oyler: Well, I think it's I think that the Republican Party and I think the American society in general, certainly American media, has been in a kind of transitional phase since 2020. Don't quote me on that, but like generally, like since Trump's term was a very crystal clear political moment in the country, I think. And it did make a lot of people sort of immediately think back and say what, what did I miss about the last ten, 15 years that led to this? Like, why didn't I see this coming? Why didn't I expect Donald Trump to be elected president in 2016? And that led to all this kind of--the things that you're referencing, which are, you know, reality, the effects of reality television and the effects of social media, you know, the sort of the the sense that--the desire for kind of like a more immediate relationship to our media that develops--all these things kind of developed in tandem, which is to say that, you know, someone who's watching the Hills on MTV, which is sort of my demographic, is not going to be the same kind of person who's watching wrestling per say. But there are many things that those two kinds of programing have in common, right? And it is kind of the ironic presentation of reality and scare quotes, right? And I think that Donald Trump, obviously a reality television host himself and and and certainly involved in professional wrestling can like sort of tap into could tap into that. But I don't think we're in that period anymore. I don't you know nobody is we aren't I hope we don't have graduate students writing dissertations on the on the Kardashians anymore which is what, you know that was such a prominent force in the media and in the sort of 2010s during Obama's administration. And I don't know exactly like what is next, right? The conversations we're having now are all about AI. They're all about Elon Musk. But it's certainly not this like pro-wrestling spectacle thing anymore. And I think you can see that because it's not as if that was that was not new, part of part of the spectacle that was created by the by the Hulk Hogan stuff was like that it was so surprising. But you can't keep bringing Hulk Hogan out every for, you know, you can't have them every four years. I'm sorry.Keen: An immortal Hulk Hogan or for that matter, Trump.Oyler: Yeah, yeah. And I do think that--picking J.D. Vance as the vice presidential nominee does indicate that they are trying to sort of move forward and kind of set the path for Trumpism after Trump. As many...that's not my phrase. It's a phrase everybody everybody uses, because also Trumpism is the most successful kind of Republican movement in a long time. You might remember the Tea Party didn't arrive. But there's a lot of dissent about that, I think. I think a lot of older people in the party that I talked to when I was at the convention were dissatisfied with Trump. And they would say, you know, I actually never liked him. I didn't vote for him in the primary in 2016. I would prefer he not do this. I overheard a man giving an interview to some some wire service and he, he really sounded like he was having an identity crisis. Like he was like, I don't know. This is not the party I grew up with. This is not the party I joined. What am I going to do? So there are lots of these older guys who feel that way. And then on the other side, there are lots of these young guys who I talked to who are kind of young Republicans in their early 20s, and they also don't really care. It's not like they're excited about Donald Trump. They're like excited by the kind of meme-ified free market capitalism opportunities that the Republicans sort of scoop up, right? Like they like crypto. They like, you know, they're like they have some really confused ideas about tariffs, which if you if you press them on it a little bit, you would say maybe you actually should vote for a Democrat because Trump is just putting more tariffs on things, just all sorts of things.Keen: By the way, it's the first time in this conversation, Lauren, I've heard the the West Virginian twang when you when you said tariffs. Say it again.Oyler: Tariffs? I mean, I can do it all day if you want. I was anticipating you asking me to perform the accent. Maybe when we talk about a little bit more about J.D. Vance.Keen: Yeah.Oyler: But but, yeah--Keen: Tariffs, and what about China? Could you do China?Oyler: Well, you know, I lived in Beijing for about two months.Keen: I mean, JD, is he the fool here or is he the one who's being made to look like a fool, do you think?Oyler: I think he's allowing himself to be made to look like a fool. I don't think that...Keen: Does he know what he's doing here?Oyler: Yeah. I mean, does he know what he's doing entirely? No. Does he know what he's doing? More than, like, Donald Trump's kids? Yes.Keen: It isn't hard, especially the boys. The girls disappeared, right? I think our girls have disappeared.Oyler: And yeah, good for them. I think I saw on Twitter that it's Ivanka's 43rd birthday today.Keen: Maybe a happy birthday, Ivanka, if you're well, I'm sure you've got better things to do. Although, she does seem to be participating. I'm sure she's severely embarrassed now by the whole thing.Oyler: Yeah, I think that that's a big issue for, you know, they're just they're struggling to have like a base for Trump anymore. And there is like a base for Republican, like a Republican Party base. But it doesn't seem like there's that many.Keen: Yeah, and your essay is entitled "The GOP's Identity Crisis." Maybe it should be "The Trump Family's Identity Crisis."Oyler: Yeah. I mean, he's he's not going to be around for that much longer.Keen: Yeah. I mean, what you said was interesting about talking to a lot of older people who suggested they don't like Trump. I mean, if he loses today, who knows what's going to happen? But if he does indeed lose and relatively decisively in the sense that it's clear that he lost. Do you think the knives are going to be out in your experience in Milwaukee? Yeah, there are enough people in the Republican Party will say enough is enough. This guy's a loser and we need to move on.Oyler: I mean, I think you can't lose two times in a row. You know, I mean, I think that there is enough...It's it's hard to say, well, what are the billionaires going to do? Like, what's Elon Musk going to do? What? Like, where's the money going to go? I don't know. I think they are trying to set up...to me at the convention, it seemed to me that, like J.D. Vance and Vivek Ramaswamy are the are the people that are sort of creating the most enthusiasm. But at the same time, you do have this kind of thing which the Democrats start with in 2016 and in 2020, which is that the younger members of the party have sort of radically different kind of Internet inflected ideas about what they want from the party. And the older guard is sort of scandalized a little bit by that. And it's kind of like a power struggle that will be interesting to watch if if Trump loses. And even if he wins, frankly.Keen: The narrative, the traditional narrative in mainstream media over the last few days has been mostly about men. Men, male and female voters, black and white voters, which is always a feature. And young and old voters. What wisdom did you derive on those fronts from from Milwaukee? Were there any young people there or any black people there? Were there any women there?Oyler: Were there any young people, black people or women there? Yes, there were there. It does skew older. It's very white. And, you know, the women who are there generally wives, even if they're also delegates, like they're not the main event. They don't have a Sarah Palin at this point right? There was...many of the women who spoke on stage were given a pink backdrop. They're very welcoming to women and minorities and young people. The rhetoric is all very much, we're not racist. America is not racist country. This is not a racist party. Over and over again, Tim Scott gave a big speech about how the Republicans aren't racist. Amber Rose Kanye West's ex-girlfriend, gave a big speech about how Republicans aren't racist. There was all this kind of state saying how not racist they were. And, you know, on the ground, obviously most people are white, most people are old, and most people are men. So, it was not super convincing, but it is kind of interesting to watch them say that because, of course, even ten years ago, they would have never cared about any of that, any of those kinds of points.Keen: Early on in the piece, you mentioned DeLillo. To what extent did he, especially in White Noise, did he predict all this? I mean, not just him, but that school of American writing.Oyler: But do you think they're predicting it or they're just observing their own time, and actually, it hasn't changed?Keen: I guess, yeah. I remember a review, I think it was Andrew Hagan's review in the New York Review of Books after 9/11, in which they were reviewing one of one of DeLillo's books about terrorism. I know Hagan wrote about DeLillo in the sense that reality kind of overtaking, maybe, his prediction or his his kind of work. It must be, again, to use a word, surreal here to to see this world that DeLillo already imagined in practice.Oyler: Well, I think he's probably talking about Underworld. But I think it's maybe our idea of of history being kind of flawed rather than DeLillo's being overtaken. I do think DeLillo has some struggles writing about the Internet, but that's fine. But I think, too, because I was reading so much of these convention pieces from the 60s and 70s, the conversation is the same. And that's nonfiction, right? And so I actually think this kind of like apocalyptic rhetoric and and ever greater spectacle, it does sort of get ever greater, but it has always been getting ever greater. And so I don't know that DeLillo has been like overtaken, because also people can read. People read, you know, Libra now, which is all about in the wake of the failed assassination attempt on Trump. Everybody was talking about Libra, which is about the assassination of John F. Kennedy, and the kind of, let's say, deep state apparatus surrounding that event. And also, you know, White Noise is a satirical novel. But but I think there was sort of some airborne toxic events in the United States.Keen: Yeah. I mean, he actually did write that in the book. I think about that. In a small town.Oyler: Exactly. But I believe White Noise is based on also a real incident. And DeLillo tends to work with actual news stories. Underworld is also sort of heavily researched and based on on on real, real events. So I think actually, maybe we we have to sort of admit that like as as as writers, as pundits, as journalists, as as whatever, it's in our best interest to say now is totally different. Right now, more than ever, everything's totally different. We're in a new paradigm. We're in a new era. This is especially bad. You know, you keep hearing this is the most important election of our lives. And we've been hearing that for every single election. And it's always been that kind of story. I can't really remember what your question was, but my my feeling about DeLillo is, like, amazing author. One of the best we have.Keen: Yeah, I know. I agree. And this idea of it being the most important election and of course, until the next one. This idea of an identity crisis. Lauren, what is an identity crisis? You noted that America is in a transitional stage. I mean, countries are always in transitional stages. They're always changing. Gramsci I think wrote that these kind of periods are a time for monsters. So we imagine the worst. What, to you, is an identity crisis, and why is the GOP going through it and not the Democrats? Might one argue that it's actually much healthier to face up to this crisis than to basically ignore it as the as the Democrats seem to be doing?Oyler: Yeah. Well, I think the Democrats, for all their faults, sort of dealt with this in the last two elections. And actually, you could say too the election of Barack Obama in 2008 was also a kind of identity crisis moment for them because the party didn't really want him, right? And Hillary's people, I believe, in 2008 were really critical of anyone who would go work for Obama, and it was it was actually like quite a big conflict. So you could say that basically the Democrats have been going through it as well. And now they've kind of they lost so humiliatingly in 2016 that they kind of had to do something about it, and they basically strong armed the left wing of the party in 2020, which for people of my generation, it was quite upsetting or like, galvanizing in some way, but you just don't really see so much...for someone who was really paying attention in 2020, the dissent against Kamala Harris is so much less than the dissent against Joe Biden in 2020. Does that sound right to you?Keen: Yeah, but I'm not sure you...I mean, if America is indeed in what you call this transitional stage where things the nature of the country, perhaps what we might think of as its kind of operating system is changing so dramatically. The Republicans are trying to face up to it and perhaps making fools of themselves, but at least they're addressing it. Why? Why the Republicans? Why the Democrats? So maybe America really isn't...I mean, this idea of a transitional stage is always true. So it's no more transitional in 2024 than it was in 2020 or 1920.Oyler: Yeah. Well, I think the Democrats have proven themselves to be quite denialists, right? Like they're very centrist. So the radical wing of the Republican Party. You could argue that J.D. Vance is part of part of the radical wing of the Republican Party. So I just think that the the Democrats are risk averse. They're very risk averse. And the things that they want are a return to normalcy when Republicans want like a radical reshaping of the government and society. They want...I went to some Moms for Liberty event where, you know, they weren't talking about this on the convention floor, but the Republicans give hearing to people who want to abolish the Department of Education. I can't remember what Trump's specific view on that is, but that's an incredibly radical proposal.Keen: I mean, Michael Lewis wrote a whole book on that: The Fifth Risk.Oyler: Yeah. But, it's not inconceivable that they would do that.Keen: Well, they did it. I mean, they did it in in 2016. I don't know if you're with the Department of Education, but some of these departments, they essentially shut down or appointed people with so hostile to the bureaucratic state that they by definition were going to ruin it.Oyler: Yeah. And then there was the the acronym R.A.G.E, Retire All Government Employees, and this kind of stuff. So but my point is that they you know, they see themselves as a revolution--the Republicans see themselves as a revolutionary party, and the Democrats are emphatically not. They're defining themselves against Republicans. So they're like, of course we're not America is not in an identity crisis. We just need to, like, get back to normal. But to go back to the phrase identity crisis, I think, too, is a reference also to J.D. Vance, whose whole career is, I argue, based on a sort of perversion of liberal identity politics, or an appeal to a kind of liberal identity politics. And the Republican Party's use of him or his use of them, is also based on this kind of Appalachian identity he has has created for himself in the media.Keen: Lauren, whatever happens today, the country's still profoundly divided. One side's going to win, one side is going to lose, but not by much. Lots of people have written about America in a process of divorce. You've presented the Democrats as denialists and the Republicans as so aggressively trying to figure themselves out in a slightly absurd way. Is this like a kind of traditional divorce where one partner denies there's any problems and the other exaggerates them? I don't know what the outcome of that kind of divorce usually is.Oyler: I don't know. Are you divorced?Keen: Yeah, but I'm not a denialist.Oyler: So you're so you're like--Keen: I mean, I was divorced.Oyler: What?Keen: I mean, I was. So...I've married and divorced.Oyler: Okay. But you have been through that. You've experienced--Keen: Yeah, I've done a divorce. Have you?Oyler: No. Never been married.Keen: But you've written about maybe not marriage, but you've written about...split ups, shall we say? I mean, you book Fake Accounts, which was a big hit, is about individuals and how they relate to one another. Is this like, maybe not a divorce, but a breakup in a in a weird kind of way, which, you know, you can't really breakup because you can't split the country in two?Oyler: Well, I don't think so, because I think it's probably...the thing about a romantic relationship is generally you are choosing in some way at least, to be in it and you're sort of declaring your your desire to be in it at some point in time. So if you're breaking it up, you're kind of it's seen as a failure, right? Whereas if you're an American citizen and you were just born in the country, you can't really control where you were born and you can't really, you know, there are only so many things you can do about that, and about your stake in the American political system and whether it breaks out. But are you asking for going is if this sort of south is going to secede or something like that--Keen: No, I'm saying, does this all tie into perhaps our therapeutic culture? I mean, is it coincidental that the kind of language that's being used both by the participants and observers like yourself is the same kind of language used by therapists, people addressing marriage breakups, relationship breakups, denialism, risk aversity, revenge plots, all this sort of thing?Oyler: Well, I think all the political parties are just made up of individual people, and as an individual person, the metaphors that we have at hand are our personal interpersonal metaphors. But I believe I'm a little rusty on this, but I believe Civilization and Its Discontents by Freud makes a similar kind of argument, right? Which is that there's a interpersonal metaphor that can be expanded to encompass the society. And you can read society psychoanalytically. I'm not a Freudian or even pro psychoanalysis per say, but it's not like it's actually not a new tendency that we we want to speak in these terms, especially in politics, which is different from government, right? Like in politics, all of the rhetoric, all of the language that politicians use and that they construct in order to make their case is incredibly personal and incredibly designed to incite emotion. That may remind you of things that happen in in private life, say. But I mean, are we getting a divorce? Like, we can't get a divorce. The Democrats or Republicans can't get a divorce. Maybe they need to grow up rather rather than split up.Keen: Finally, Lauren, I think your latest collection of essays is, No Judgment, I'm being critical...one of your strengths as a writer, thinker, or broadcaster, is your distance. I saw you had two interviews recently, one with GQ that says you don't take your work too seriously and then one with Vanity Fair, which suggests you care a lot. I wonder, and that's probably true of most of us, that we both hopefully don't take ourselves too seriously, but we also, in our own way, care a lot. Is this something that we should care about? I mean, so much hysteria. You noted earlier, every election is the most important election in American history. 2028 will no doubt be the same. You write without judgment, I think, that the piece also is written, in a sense, without judgment. But are you concerned with America? I mean, is this something to really worry about, or is it just one more scene and in the surreal history of the United States of America?Oyler: Well, I think, of course, it's something to care about. The idea I don't really care about things is obviously not totally true. But I think you can't care about the horse race aspect of of politics and you can't...the constant catastrophizing in the media hasn't worked. It's not accurate and it doesn't work. But of course it would be...I would prefer Donald Trump not win. Like, that will have many effects on even the country where I live, which is Germany. But to that point, I don't live in the United States and I don't live in the United States kind of for political reasons. And, of course, it shouldn't be a horrible catastrophe there the way that it is. Should care about it? Yeah. I think that if people don't care about it, or especially if young people don't care about it, it is a sense of that nothing that you do really matters, and like throwing stuff at the wall to see if it sticks politically. And that moment where everyone thought that they could do sort of political activism on social media has thankfully gone away. But there's been nothing to replace it to produce the kind of political subject for young people. So, I don't you know, I don't know what to do.Keen: Yeah,  it's interesting. I mean, I want to end this now because you've been very generous with your time. But I think your point, which hasn't really been made before...2024 is the first post-Internet election. Before, everyone was always obsessed with the Internet, always talking about how important it is. And now, you just don't read much about it. It's either it's the electric system, so it's just sort of ingrained into the system, or we've gone beyond the Internet, God knows where. But the Internet doesn't really feature in the discussion anymore.Oyler: No, I think that that's true. And I think that that's good because people are sort of accepting that it's a part of life now. I think the reason we focused on it so much in the previous two decades was because it felt like things were really radically changing. And maybe this sense that I have that we're transitioning into a new era and we don't really know what is the important thing to focus on is because it was so clear, I think, for many people that things were changing in a particular way with social media and social media was having these kind of drastic facts. And some people were in denial about that, and they would say, social media does matter. It's not real. Now, you can't really say that. But I think I noticed just before we got on the call that there was a New Yorker news, a breaking news story that The New Yorker published that that Russia was sort of inserting like kind of really bizarre election interference propaganda that was so bad. And it's not even going to be a big news story, right? Whereas that was such a huge news story in 2016 and 2020. And now we just sort of accept, yes, the foreign governments are going to attempt to use the Internet to interfere in our elections and we will almost certainly do the same. So, to relate this back to your question, should we all care? I think it's good to be realistic about these things, but it's hard to know where to put the emphasis at this point.Keen: Well, Lauren, Lauren Oyler, the author of Revenge--Revenge Plot, Not Revenge Post.Oyler: I thought you were going to say "romantic movie," which is cool.Keen: You've given me the title of this piece. 2024 is the first post-Internet election. I think that's very profound of you. Thank you so much, Lauren. And I hope I hope you're happy, because I think you and I probably agree on the kind of outcome of the election. But it's not the end of the plot, the revenge plot, whatever other kind of plot you want. We have to get you back on the show, Lauren, once the fog has cleared and we have a better idea of America post-2024. Thank you so much. And keep well and safe in Berlin. Really, I really appreciate it.Oyler: Thanks. Have a good night. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit keenon.substack.com/subscribe

The Woody Allen movie, "Manhattan," includes a scene where two couples are walking and the one played by Michael Murphy and Diane Keaton unveil their Academy of Overrated.  To this body they assign Gustav Mahler, Isak Dinesen, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Lenny Bruce, Norman Mailer, Mozart, , Vincent Van Gogh, and Ingmar Bergman.  The co-hosts on this recording, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian), consider their own list of overrated theologians.  The ones discussed are Karl Barth, the recently deceased Juergen Moltmann, and C. S. Lewis.   The reason behind raising the question is not to belittle any of these theologians' achievements but to consider how it is that a theologian -- when there are so many -- emerges as the "go to" authority for ending a doctrinal debate.  It also relates to confessional Protestant theological traditions in which those students training for a specific communion are going to be much more likely to read theologians in the Lutheran, Reformed, or Anglican traditions -- instead of reading broadly in the theologians who transcend specific Protestant communions.  A final thread of conversation was whether the "big names" of Protestant theology can survive in an age of megachurches and church planting networks.   The sponsor this time is Ethan's Donut Factory in downtown Hillsdale, Michigan. 

The Fight by Norman Mailer (1975) vs Just Add Water: My Swimming Life by Katie Ledecky (2024)

Send us a textMeg looks into the violent backstory of Norman Mailer's protégé Jack Henry Abbott. Jessica tries on Sandra Garratt's modular system of new wave fashion: Units.Please check out our website, follow us on Instagram, on Facebook, and...WRITE US A REVIEW HEREWe'd LOVE to hear from you! Let us know if you have any ideas for stories HEREThank you for listening!Love,Meg and Jessica

For almost sixty years, Norman Mailer was a fixture on the American literary scene, seemingly as well known for his feuds and personal exploits as he was for his prize-winning novels and groundbreaking journalism. But what was the man really like? As the Library of America commemorates the life and career of Norman Mailer with an edition of his early masterpiece The Naked and the Dead, Jacke talks to the editor of that book, J. Michael Lennon, who was intimately associated with Mailer as both friend and professional colleague. Enjoyed this episode? You might also like to try some of these from our archive: 627 Hemingway's "Hills Like White Elephants" (with Mark Cirino) 143 A Soldier's Heart - Teaching Literature at West Point (with Elizabeth Samet) Conflict Literature (with Matt Gallagher) Help support the show at patreon.com/literature or historyofliterature.com/donate. The History of Literature Podcast is a member of Lit Hub Radio and the Podglomerate Network. Learn more at thepodglomerate.com/historyofliterature. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Joseph McBride - Into the Nightmare - My Search for the Killers of President John F. Kennedy and Officer TippitSep 21, 2022Back to November 1963 and the fateful events which were to change America and the world.Ed Opperman is joined by Joseph McBride.From Amazon:“AMERICA'S NEED TO WALK INTO THE NIGHTMARE . . .” . . . was how Norman Mailer predicted the tumultuous period that led to President John F. Kennedy's 1963 murder on a public street and the fifty years of controversy that have followed that turning point in our nation's history. Journalist and historian Joseph McBride, a volunteer in JFK's 1960 Wisconsin presidential primary campaign, began studying the assassination minutes after it happened. In 1982, McBride launched his own investigation. Both epic and intimately personal, Into the Nightmare: My Search for the Killers of President John F. Kennedy and Officer J. D. Tippit incorporates rare interviews with key people in Dallas, archival discoveries, and what novelist Thomas Flanagan, in The New York Review of Books, called McBride's “wide knowledge of American social history.” McBride chronicles his evolving skepticism about the official story and shines a fresh, often surprising spotlight on Kennedy's murder and on one of the murkiest, most crucial aspects of the case, its “Rosetta Stone,” the Tippit killing.Joseph McBride is an American film historian, biographer, screenwriter, author and educator. He has written numerous books including biographies of notable film directors, a book on screenwriting, an investigative journalism book on the JFK assassination, and a memoir of the dark years in his life.He also serves as professor in the Cinema Department at San Francisco State University.Book: Into The NightmareWebsite: http://www.josephmcbridefilm.com/(domain registered, website under maintenance at time of posting.Twitter:Bio: WikipediaOther Books: How Did Lubitsch Do It? What Ever Happened to Orson Welles?: A Portrait of an Independent Career The Whole Durn Human Comedy: Life According to the Coen Brothers Frank Capra: Castastrophe of Success Political Truth: The Media and the Assassination of President Kennedy Searching For John Ford: A Life Two Cheers for Hollywood: Joseph McBride on Movies Hawks on Hawks (Screen Classics) Writing in Pictures The Book of Movie Lists: An Offbeat, Provocative Collection of the Best and Worst of Everything in MoviesBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-opperman-report--1198501/support.

Elizabeth talks with journalist Tricia Romano, author of the new oral history The Freaks Came Out to Write: The Definitive History of The Village Voice, the Radical Paper That Changed American Culture. Tricia, who was a contributing writer at the Village Voice for nearly a decade covering New York City's nightlife and club scenes in the early 2000s, spent six years and hundreds of hours interviewing the newspaper's former staff, dating back decades to its founding in 1955 by Norman Mailer, a psychotherapist, and an editor. Tricia discusses the white macho roots of the publication and its eventual evolution to include female, queer, and Black writers who helped the Voice redefine itself. She also talks about the Voice's prescient coverage of Donald Trump and his father Fred Trump, and the paternal influence that a complicated editor there had on her own life. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/tell-me-about-your-father/support

The Salty Lunatics - Madaline SotoApril 12Shauna from the Salty Lunatics has information on the grim case of Madaline SotoFrom NBC News:The body of missing Florida girl Madeline Soto was found in a wooded area Friday afternoon, the Orange County Sheriff's Office said, hours after the department said they believed the 13-year-old was dead.Her mother's boyfriend is suspected of moving her body and the case is a homicide investigation, Sheriff John Mina said at a news conference earlier in the day.Madeline's body was found around 4:30 p.m. by Osceola County Sheriff's Office search teams in a wooded area off Hickory Tree Road, the Orange County Sheriff's Office said in an update."Madeline's family has been notified. We have no additional information to release at this time. Kissimmee PD is the lead agency in this homicide investigation. That work continues," the sheriff's office said.The sheriff's office previously said Madeline was last seen Monday morning when her mother's boyfriend, Stephan Sterns, 37, dropped her off a few blocks from Hunter's Creek Middle School in Orlando.Salty Lunaticstiktok0:00Change progress51:45The Salty Lunatics - Madaline SotoMarch 29Shauna from the Salty Lunatics has information on the grim case of Madaline SotoFrom NBC News:The body of missing Florida girl Madeline Soto was found in a wooded area Friday afternoon, the Orange County Sheriff's Office said, hours after the department said they believed the 13-year-old was dead.Her mother's boyfriend is suspected of moving her body and the case is a homicide investigation, Sheriff John Mina said at a news conference earlier in the day.Madeline's body was found around 4:30 p.m. by Osceola County Sheriff's Office search teams in a wooded area off Hickory Tree Road, the Orange County Sheriff's Office said in an update."Madeline's family has been notified. We have no additional information to release at this time. Kissimmee PD is the lead agency in this homicide investigation. That work continues," the sheriff's office said.The sheriff's office previously said Madeline was last seen Monday morning when her mother's boyfriend, Stephan Sterns, 37, dropped her off a few blocks from Hunter's Creek Middle School in Orlando.Salty Lunaticstiktok3moI am following this case also. 0:00Change progress50:52Joseph McBride - Into the Nightmare - My Search for the Killers of President John F. Kennedy and Officer TippitSep 21, 2022Back to November 1963 and the fateful events which were to change America and the world.Ed Opperman is joined by Joseph McBride.From Amazon:“AMERICA'S NEED TO WALK INTO THE NIGHTMARE . . .” . . . was how Norman Mailer predicted the tumultuous period that led to President John F. Kennedy's 1963 murder on a public street and the fifty years of controversy that have followed that turning point in our nation's history. Journalist and historian Joseph McBride, a volunteer in JFK's 1960 Wisconsin presidential primary campaign, began studying the assassination minutes after it happened. In 1982, McBride launched his own investigation. Both epic and intimately personal, Into the Nightmare: My Search for the Killers of President John F. Kennedy and Officer J. D. Tippit incorporates rare interviews with key people in Dallas, archival discoveries, and what novelist Thomas Flanagan, in The New York Review of Books, called McBride's “wide knowledge of American social history.” McBride chronicles his evolving skepticism about the official story and shines a fresh, often surprising spotlight on Kennedy's murder and on one of the murkiest, most crucial aspects of the case, its “Rosetta Stone,” the Tippit killing.Joseph McBride is an American film historian, biographer, screenwriter, author and educator. He has written numerous books including biographies of notable film directors, a book on screenwriting, an investigative journalism book on the JFK assassination, and a memoir of the dark years in his life.He also serves as professor in the Cinema Department at San Francisco State University.Book: Into The NightmareWebsite: http://www.josephmcbridefilm.com/(domain registered, website under maintenance at time of posting.Twitter:Bio: WikipediaOther Books: How Did Lubitsch Do It? What Ever Happened to Orson Welles?: A Portrait of an Independent Career The Whole Durn Human Comedy: Life According to the Coen Brothers Frank Capra: Castastrophe of Success Political Truth: The Media and the Assassination of President Kennedy Searching For John Ford: A Life Two Cheers for Hollywood: Joseph McBride on Movies Hawks on Hawks (Screen Classics) Writing in Pictures The Book of Movie Lists: An Offbeat, Provocative Collection of the Best and Worst of Everything in MoviesBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-opperman-report--1198501/support.

We're kicking off a month of Patreon requests with a request from Dallas Novell; 1982's TV movie The Executioner's Song. Based on a book by Norman Mailer with a screenplay by Mailer -- and maybe Tracy Keenan Wynn -- it's the story of the last nine months in the life of Gary Gilmore which stars Tommy Lee Jones as Gilmore and Rosanna Arquette as his girlfriend, Nicole Baker.Made for TV Mayhem's Amanda Reyes and Wake Up Heavy's Mark Begley join Mike to discuss the film, capital punishment, and more while director Lawrence Schiller talks about how The Executioner's Song came about.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-projection-booth-podcast--5513239/support.

In 1956, Richard Wright spoke of islands of free men at the first Congress of Black Writers and Artists in Paris. James Baldwin critiqued the event for Encounter, the CIA's propaganda magazine. We take a close listen to the original recordings. Shownotes: Merve Fejzula and Cedric Tolliver both wrote about the 1956 Congrès des écrivains et artistes noirs. Darryl Pinckney wrote on Norman Mailer and Denis Leroux wrote on Antoine Bonnemaison. Support ToE and get access to the incredible exclusive bonus companion series to Not All Propaganda is Art by subscribing at https://theoryofeverything.supercast.com/, or subscribe directly in Apple Podcasts by hitting “Subscribe” right on the show page.

This week, Kara and Liza recap the episode “Solitary” (Season 11, Episode 3). Plus, they cover four different real-life events: the murder of Mary Rogers, the disappearance of Margot Kidder, the release of Herman Bell, and Norman Mailer's involvement with convicted killer Jack Abbott. In support of the SAG-AFTRA strike, there will be no guests on this episode. SOURCES:Mental FlossChicago TribuneThe New York Times 1The New York Times 2The New York Times 3The New York Times 4The New York Times 5The Washington PostCBS NewsWikipedia - Norman MailerWHAT WOULD SISTER PEG DO:Time: The Kalief Browder StoryNext week's episode will be “Manhattan Vigil” (Season 14, Episode 5).See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.