Podcasts about right speaker

Jasmin, Reese and Alyssa discuss the FBI raid of the home of Mayor Adams' fundraiser, what to know about the new far-right wing Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, measures being taken in Australia to address domestic violence, and a young New Jersey boy being cured of sickle cell anemia thanks to a bone marrow transplant from his brother.

Finding the right speaker for your event can be time-consuming and hard! And not just finding them, but then having the right budget can add a layer of complexity too. In today's episode I'm joined by Maggie Benjamin, General Manager of Mixi Events (part of Saxton Group) and previously Business Chicks. Maggie is an accomplished event manager with a proven ability to bring the right speakers to any event and in our chat Maggie shares her lessons and wisdom from over a decade with us. In this episode, you'll learn: How to source and vet potential speakers What to do if a speaker doesn't show up or perform How to navigate and budget for the wide range of speaking fees in the market Maggie's top tip for anyone planning business events Get in touch with Maggiehello@mixi.events or on Instagram This episode was brought to you by Events Academy - equipping admin professionals with the resources to plan successful business events

Brian Palmer is SVP of National Speakers Bureau. Over forty years ago Brian's father, John Palmer, founded National Speakers Bureau because he wanted to provide knowledgeable, ethical and creatively thoughtful options to those people charged with finding the right speakers for their audiences. In 2018 NSB became a division of Premiere Speakers Bureau where Brian continues to help his customers capture the hearts and minds of those important to them. Brian and his jazz violinist wife of 28 years, Paula, have two kids who are working hard, being good and enjoying their 20s.Brian graduated from Drake University with a BA in Speech Communications, and earned an MBA from Lake Forest Graduate School of Management. To learn more about National Speakers Bureau, go to www.nationalspeakers.comTo reach Brian: Brian@Nationalspeakers.com or 847.281.3574 ***************************************************************************If you'd like to talk to Terry McDougall about coaching or being a guest on Marketing Mambo, here's how you can reach her:https://www.terrybmcdougall.comhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/terrybmcdougallTerry@Terrybmcdougall.comHer book Winning the Game of Work: Career Happiness and Success on Your Own Terms is available at Amazon. 

Engineering Influence and the ACEC Research Institute welcomed WSP's John Porcari onto the show to discuss his work with the ACEC Research Institute on the New Partnership on Infrastructure and  Accelerator for America's new report:  "A Playbook for a new Infrastructure Partnership." Host:Welcome to another edition of Engineering Influence, a podcast by the American Council of Engineering Companies. It is my pleasure to welcome John Porcari to the program. John is a senior advisor at WSP and has an impressive history, both as the Deputy Secretary of Transportation in the Obama administration, where he was second command to then Secretary Anthony Foxx. And before that, John served two terms as Maryland Secretary of Transportation. His experience in program management, planning, design, and construction delivery is widely sought after by elected officials and policy leaders across the political spectrum. And it's fair to say that his insights and advice are of great value to presidential candidates, which comes up to a sharp focus this year with the general election. Mr. Porcari is now with ACEC member from WSP, where he oversees the firm's advisory services.Host:And not long after the ACEC Research Institute was established, WSP suggested that one of the first projects the group could undertake was the new "Partnership for Infrastructure," which is a program that's also supported by ACEC member from HNTB. Now, the Partnership's focus was to interview mayors across the country to better understand local and urban infrastructure challenges and develop a playbook of actionable recommendations. And when the project started in early March, there was a lot of buzz about the potential for an infrastructure bill, but no one could have imagined the disruptive impact of COVID-19. And on top of that, how urban protests would make us all think more about the state of America's cities. Los Angeles-based Accelerator for America interviewed the mayors for the playbook over the course of the Spring and assembled the recommendations and led the socialization of the recommendations and various online forums. The ACEC Research Institute participated in the process as an advisor and a financial supporter, but it doesn't necessarily endorse all the recommendations, but the playbook provides a great value for, firm executives and leaders in the engineering and the A/E/C space. It provides a lot of access to gain key insights into the tough local challenges facing our cities. The mayors are looking for problem solving partners to address complex societal needs. In some cases they want consulting help before they even have projects identified. Also the complexity of project finances, much more challenging today, and simply identifying funding for a list of projects. We all know what COVID-19 and the crunch on state and municipal budgets has really done to the industry. Now, this playbook is called the community serving infrastructure, a playbook for a new infrastructure partnership, and it can be found@acceleratorforamerica.org. The link to that document as well as supporting documents will be added up to the show notes on this episode.Host:That was kind of a long introduction kind of setting it up here, John, but I want to give you the opportunity. Number one, thank you for coming on. And number two, you know, for us in the beltway, you are well known as an expert in public administration, infrastructure transportation for those outside of the beltway who are politically active and are engaged in the A/E/C industry. Can you tell us a little bit more about your major interests and, and in, in, in the field and, you know, the turning points in your career that kind of got you to this point?John Porcari:Sure. Jeff, and thanks for having me here today. I, I've been very lucky in my professional career, in both the public sector and the private sector and in the public sector, as you pointed out, sort of at the local level, the state level is the Secretary of Transportation at the federal levels, Deputy Secretary of Transportation. And now in the private sector working to help clients get these projects across the finish line which is harder and harder. And we can talk about this a little bit, some of the things that are holding it back, but what's motivated me through my whole career is infrastructure is economic development. I started my public sector career as an economic development person working on major projects. And the more time I spent on economic development, the more there was a transportation and infrastructure linkage to it.John Porcari:So it's kind of a natural crossover into transportation. And that's especially true at the local level. We have this great system in the U S at the federal state and local level where each level of government has various responsibilities under our Federalist system, but we sometimes forget that the real actions at the local level. So the project decisions are at the local level, the priorities are established at the local level, and then you have to work your way through what can be sometimes some very difficult federal processes and regulations, for example, to get those local priorities built. So one of the reasons that we were very interested in working with Accelerator for America and the Research Institute to actually join us in that endeavor was we wanted to take a local lens to it and hear directly from mayors of big as the city of Los Angeles. And as small as cities like South bend and Waterloo, Iowa what on the infrastructure side they would like to change and this playbook we've put together some very specific recommendations through that local lens. That'll really help all kinds of infrastructure projects.Host:Absolutely. That's something which, you know, echoes throughout the country. I mean, my personal experience was in Congress with former Chairman Shuster, both in the personal office and then a committee and in the personal office, in his area of Pennsylvania, it was always economic development. It was always, you cannot have growth and opportunity without infrastructure, which naturally just tied directly into roads intotransportation networks, because the two are intertwined. And, and those decisions at the local level at the County municipal level really are the things that shape what that economic development is going to look like. So having a playbook, having some kind of a document, which looks and focuses in on the needs and the requirements of mayors and of people who are really active in local government is, is critical because it's not all at the top. It's not all federal. How, how did the accelerator for America? How did, how were they chosen to do this project? Why were they kind of the, the ideal group to, to undertake this?John Porcari:It's a great question. We began this discussion, this journey, essentially trying to take a local view to infrastructure by talking to some of the think tanks in the Washington area, some of the larger established organizations and it was such a different kind of view for them that they had trouble getting their heads around it. And so again, together with the ACEC Research Institute we had been working with Accelerator for America on specific projects. And as opposed to a think tank, the Accelerator is known as a do tank. These are mayors like all mayors and County commissioners and County councils that are out there working these issues every day. And, you know, if it works and, you know, if it doesn't at the local level, there's no hiding it. So a believer or not no one has done this before taking this local lens to infrastructure and tried to change federal regulations and requirements and programs to fit local needs rather than the other way around, rather than the experience of mayors and County commissioners across America is you have to kind of force fit what you're trying to do at the local level into whatever federal silo is out there.John Porcari:So we took the opposite approach Accelerator turned out to be the perfect partner for it. And the interviews, which were part of the process with mayors across the country, Republicans, Democrats, independents - party had nothing to do with it. Infrastructure had everything to do with it. And it truly is one of the bipartisan issues out there. We heard some common themes that turned into these recommendations in the playbook. Some are very specific, and frankly, some of them are relatively easy to do and would make the infrastructure work at the local level. So much easier, so much more freedom to adapt to local conditions.Host:Absolutely. It's really a paradigm shift because so much of the time we're focused on federal policy and programs. And those are developed, you know, with, with some thought and input from state DOT, administrators and such, but really it's, it's never given that focus from the local area because, you know, their needs should really bubble up and shape that policy, because if you're able to solve a lot of the problems with the local level, and a lot of the things that the consulting industry engineering consulting, engineering industry can come in and help in that process as well, understanding how to apply solutions to the challenges that are facing at the local level. It can speed project delivery can improve policy. At the national level, it seems like a natural model that hasn't been followed a lot by Congress. It's an interesting thing.John Porcari:That's exactly right. And, and the members of ACEC, I think could be very helpful in this and the the at the local level mayors and their counterparts don't have the luxury of thinking in the silos that the federal government operates in. And as you point out, the reality is that innovation doesn't trickle down from the federal level, it bubbles up from the local level and some of the more successful infrastructure work and infrastructure policies, and even projects have been local decisions that aggregate into a national system. And if, if you think about goods movement, if you think about moving people safely and efficiently they're really thousands of local decisions that together make the national policy not the other way around. We tried to reflect that in the playbook and make sure that the mayors were heard loud and clear on what their priorities were in our, in of course it varies all over the country based on local conditions, but to a person, they, they understood the fact that it's economic development it's quality of life, of their communities, it's building the economic future.John Porcari:So in one example, the highway right away is not just right away to them. It's, it's how their water and wastewater systems are conveyed as storm stormwater management. It's where broadband is bringing an economic future to these communities. And so they don't think of it as the state highway departments right away. They think of it is their economic future.Host:Yeah. And those, those city planners, those, those you know, local planners have to look forward on, on where's the growth and opportunity going to be, where can we actually create the economic development and how can we use all of those pieces of the infrastructure puzzle together to more effectively create jobs, or attract businesses? One of the big issues that we had in central Pennsylvania was trying to get headquarters with operations and, and trying to do it in such a place where you not only had right away or, or thoroughfare, but then you also have the actual wastewater, water, infrastructure, broadband, all those different aspects. And it's, it's, it's the, at the local level, you see more of the picture than you do if you're just sitting, like you said, in those silos, and you're just looking at one or two different things now, when this started, and we didn't have any idea of what was around the bend. I mean the focus of this project must have been impacted by the pandemic. And then, you know, the social issues layered on top of that kind of two part question, the first is how did it change scope, but then, you know, how did it, how did it also expand to, put a focus on to urban areas of, and their infrastructure needs and how they may have been underserved in the past and looking at what they might need to rebuild after the pandemic?John Porcari:It's a great question, Jeff. And we got some great direct input from these mayors. And so is one example. We talked to dozens of mayors across the Heartland of America small and medium sized cities where they're grappling with all kinds of issues, but, but again, trying to build an economic futureit makes sure they could do it. And as we started this project, the pandemic hit so it did change the infrastructure priority to some extent, for example one of the medium sized Midwestern cities that we were working closely with found that to do online instruction for their public school district almost 40% of their students didn't have access to broadband. You can imagine what that did to the priority of broadband relative to some of the other infrastructure priorities that they have at the same timethings like some of the transit service and planning for a future transit capacity changed as well, knowing that that economic lifeline of transit, connecting people to opportunities is, is every bit as important in some of these smaller jurisdictions as it is in large areas.John Porcari:And it was a go-no-go item for employment in many ways. So the, the it also at the same time with some of the storm events and natural disasters that we've had in the country while we were developing this, the whole idea of resilience, which really means something in practical terms terms at the local level resiliency is being able to operate your infrastructure, making sure your roads aren't flooded out and your water and wastewater systems work. And you actually have electrical power that can survive these events is something that is, is a very practical value at the local level and something that these mayors are very focused on. So as opposed to an esoteric discussion at the national level about resiliency and climate change the practical, nuts and bolts part of it is it changes infrastructure priorities at the local level. They see the facts on the ground and they have to respond to them. In real time.Host:I noticed in the last Congress near the end, the T&I Committee specifically was looking at a lot of different areas related to resiliency, and the word came up a lot more. But I don't think there was a complete appreciation for what it meant. Do you think that these stories and these recommendations from mayors can help fully flesh out federal law makers understanding of the importance of resiliency and what it means? It's not a political term, it's an actual, this is something that has to be considered.John Porcari:Yes, Jeff that's exactly right. It is not at all a political term. It's not some esoteric discussion at the local level. It's it's the practical impact of flooding where, you know, the prudent thing to do on the redesigned side is to upsize the the culverts. It's, it's where, you know, that having buried utilities makes them much more resilient for outages and storm events. The practical impact is something that we saw very clearly and heard very clearly from the mayors where they want to make sure that they're squeezing every bit of value out of harder and tax dollars for this infrastructure by making a durable. And future-proofing it to the extent that you can. So one of the great things about applying this local lens to infrastructure is it takes the kind of sterile Washington philosophical and political discussion out of this and puts the practical impact in there where these are people across the political spectrum, working side by side, acknowledging that building more resilient infrastructure is the smart thing to do from an economics point of view. And from obviously from a service delivery point of view for your city.Host:Absolutely. I know that there are four broad, which kind of form the focus of the document, and that's maximizing investment for a job and small business growth, empowering localities with effective tools and processes, funding, and financing for community serving infrastructure and making transformative investments for more resilient future, going back to the resiliency part, taking kind of that last one, since we're talking about that, like you said, the impact of, of, of looking at the local level and, and saying, like you said, you know, these power lines, you know, or what have you should be placed underground, or the covert should be made larger. I mean, that definitely will have an impact on those budgetary decisions. And, and especially with the way that the States are going right now having that cash crunch related to the pandemic how do you think the document's going to come into play with that?John Porcari:It's a great question. So there are some very specific recommendations related to resiliency, for example, that, that helped carry the argument for these cities to, to do things differently, but it also calls for a reset at the federal level. It's the, it's the local government saying, for example, that you need to form a federal infrastructure planning council. We have all of these federal agencies that don't even talk to each other, let alone work together on a regular basis at the local level, you don't have the luxury of, of building things in silos, organizational silos, this federal infrastructure planning council would be a forcing mechanism to get the different federal agencies like the Corps of Engineers responsible for all of our inland waterways, great lakes inland maritime transportation working with other federal agencies where they very seldom interact in practical terms where they do it's at the local level where you have local representatives and a local project that forces them to work together.John Porcari:So the idea is at the state and federal level to, to really highlight what some of those disconnects are, and in, in a very practical way, show how we can do a better job. And again, it recognizes the reality that's that's in our constitution and in the way we operate under federalism, but is not recognized in our institutional structures, which is those decisions and choices are made at the local level. And they should be but you don't have a federal partner that's necessarily recognizing that. And the federal share of funding in many cases in percentage terms is declining every year. So you have this ironic position of more local funding going into these projects, less federal funding, but federal regulation that makes it difficult to do business.Host:So how would that, how would that planning council be structured? Would that be executive level, or would that be kind of a congressional action? How do, how, how how's the playbook kind of see this happening?John Porcari:Well, it can be done a couple of ways, what the playbook focuses on are practical solutions. So for that planning council, the deputies level that the deputy secretaries and deputy directors in the federal departments by definition are the chief operating officers. And on, on important issues, they function is a deputy's council where they actually get together and work through issues. And what, what the playbook is saying is that for infrastructure planning at the deputy secretary at the deputy director level, we really should have that kind of coordination across the executive branch. Now, as you well know, from, from, from your background, these individuals report to all different committees of jurisdiction, but that shouldn't be the local government's problem. Right?Speaker 3:The whole idea is, is that you have the, the executive branch agencies working with each other to make it easier for the project choices and to build those projects at the local level.Host:So formalize the informal working groups into an actual council that meets and discusses infrastructure and creates a liaison for the States and for local governments to bring the ideas up, to be discussed at that operational level. That's right. And give them a specific agenda on where those barriers to cooperation are, where some of the loan programs are too restrictive and can't be used. The what you tend to do at the local level is try to get as much different kinds of infrastructure into every project that you do at the federal level. It's more of kind of a rifle shot approach where you have very narrow programs. So part of the agenda for that planning council for example, would be to broaden those programs to think more holistically to, again, frankly get better value out of these public investments by making the infrastructure more holistic and more comprehensive. It sounds fairly common sense. So, so how would, how would that, for example, you know, how would these policies accelerate, you know, improvements really that the brick and mortar infrastructure and the people really care about the, you know, you have the drinking and the wastewater, of course you know, Flint was, you know, still is the poster child for that, but then, like you mentioned earlier, we have, we have broadband, we have the issue with the gas tax and we have declining revenues, but have increasing, you know, via electric vehicle market, but we don't have a national electric vehicle charging infrastructure, you know, that's something which has to be addressed. And, and the other, those transformative areas that seem to be happening at the state and local level, of course, the States that are really ahead of the curve and trying to be centers of innovation and are starting to think of transportation, not in transportation sense, but as in mobility and, and, and as a holistic way of looking at things how would these policies help accelerate that the federal level?John Porcari:Yeah, it would do. It would happen a couple of ways. One I mentioned, which is most infrastructure projects of any size are not funded anymore. They're financed. And that's, that's a very important difference where it may be a 50 or 70 year lifespan piece of infrastructure that has a 35 year loan against it. Broadening the eligibility of those loans would be one thing, expanding the capacity of the federal loan programs, whether it's for highway or transit, water or wastewater. If you just look at the lead pipe and lead contamination issue, the, the existing federal programs capacity for loans is only a fraction of what you would actually need. And it's not just Flint, Michigan it's cities and towns across the country and rural areas. It's also other federal policies. So electric vehicle tax credits can be expanded, accelerated depreciation, all the kind of tax policies that actually trigger private sector investment in infrastructure or public private partnerships is, is something that can be encouraged through these recommendations. And the idea was to be w was, was to try to address the infrastructure needs and be agnostic on whether it's publicly addressed or privately addressed, or a partnership between the two but across the spectrum to try to identify some of these very specific recommendations that that can actually make these things happen.Host:Yeah, and that's a very important point because earlier in the couple of months ago, we did a, a round table discussion on the future of funding and transportation. And we had some, some policy think tank guys. We had Jeff Davis and Eno, and we had some thought leaders from Harvard. We had kind of a mixture and everyone agreed that, you know, reliance on farebox revenues especially now. I mean, you can't do it, you can't do it. There has to be a, there's not one solution. There has to be a number of different solutions to broaden the type of financing that you can actually go for for these projects that, you know, just relying on trust, run revenue, for example, is, is something which is, which is difficult in a time of declining revenues. Is there a recommendation on the trust fund within the document?John Porcari:It doesn't make a specific recommendation on the trust fund. The participants in this study, like everyone else acknowledged that's that it has to be changed. The system has to be changed. There's no, there's no trust in the trust fund anymore, right? If the Congress has to keep putting general funds and other monies into the trust fund, it's actually not a trust fund where and especially with the recession related to the pandemic, we're seeing trust, run revenues declining very rapidly. But the idea would be to at the local level and the federal level to open the aperture for more innovation on the funding and financing side. And there are jurisdictions that have limitations on how they can raise local funds. These local bond issuances and referenda and local other kinds of local self-help initiatives are limited in many places yet.John Porcari:They're actually the primary funding source of the local funds for many of these infrastructure projects. So opening it up across the board and making a better case that infrastructure is actually an investment. Yes, it's an expenditure, but infrastructure given its lifespan and given the economic activity that generates is actually a good investment. Whether it's airports and air service highway transit, the utilities that provide services you simply can't have economic growth and the quality of life we all want without that infrastructure investment.Host:And, and I know there, there are a couple of ideas about state local road transfers and federal funding for betterments. Can you go a little bit more into that? You know, what problems are we solving by transferring road ownership from, from state to local governments and, and what is the focus on betterments about?John Porcari:Sure, let me take each of those in turn so that the road transfer part of it is a recognition that the primary purpose of any given road may change over time. So in every state, there are state routes, the numbered state routes that were probably very important from a regional point of view maybe back to the horse and buggy days. But that state route is now main street for a town or city. And in that municipality it's serving a very different local function as opposed to the regional function that was originally built for. And so who would be the best steward of that? Who would use that right away most effectively for all the things we talked about, water and wastewater, broadband, burying electric utilities transit service, maybe dedicated transit lanes inductive charging in the next few years.John Porcari:The idea is that some of the functions of those roads, which were much more of a state function in the past local function now, it's not true in every case. The idea is to look at those individually and see where it makes sense it might have been for that state route example, 75% interest state regional traffic before. And it may be 25% now. So who would be the best steward of that? The betterment issue is a really interesting one, the when there's a hurricane or tornado or storm event that does significant damage for example, to our highway infrastructure. There's, there are emergency relief funds from the federal government to rebuild that in this highway example and until not too long ago about eight years ago, you could only rebuild that highway the same way it was built before you could not put in bigger storm drainage culverts.John Porcari:You couldn't raise the elevation. The idea of betterment is now accepted and it's federally funding eligible where you could rebuild that highway. And now you can do it with transit. You can pull it out of the flood, plain, you, you can armor it in ways where you're not rebuilding the same facility time after time with federal money, emergency relief money, every time it's common sense, but it's something that literally was not allowed until fairly recently. And so one aspect of resilience is to make sure those betterments rebuilding smarter every time is built into the core of what we do.Host:Yeah, that's a really good point and it makes complete sense. And I know, but it's the kind of thing that, that from an, you know, from an industry perspective, when, when a firm like WSP or a firm, you know, another ACEC member firm is brought onto a project, you know, they're of course working as a trusted advisor to their client to be able to say, okay, well, this road is built this way, but what we know of, you know, past events and you know, our expertise that we bring into it is that you should be improving it in a number of ways. And here is our expert consultation on how to, how to do that. And, if that idea is, is adopted by a broader swath of the States, that it means that you're going to have an improvement overall in the length and the value of infrastructure, like you said, stretching that dollar, that taxpayer dollar further, and just rebuilding a road exactly how it was. And it's just going to be washed away or destroyed in an earthquake, or what have you again,John Porcari:Right. That's right.Host:Now we talked about fund financing. We talked about the betterment issue. I know that the plan has a few deregulatory ideas on, on project delivery and cutting red tape. They include accelerated procurements reviews, the permitting, P3 processing. I, you know, we've heard a lot of these ideas from state officials. Did it really surprise you that a lot of these priorities were also coming from mayors who were interviewed?John Porcari:Not really the, the more time you spend with mayors, the more you see that they really are hands on problem solvers. So the one of the specific recommendations shortening the procurement cycle is basically the the city's asking the federal government to do what they've already done. We had a mayor for example, that during the pandemic cut their procurement times by 50% and just did it they're meeting all their legal criteria. It's there's no part of the procurement process that's been compromised, but they literally shave 50% of the time off. And the idea is if you can do that at a local level, it can be done at the federal level too. And it, if you do it at the local level and you don't have a federal partner that also cuts their response time and their review time, it doesn't help because you have to get ultimately get there. Okay. Anyway, so these are commonsense forms that don't really don't compromise the quality or the integrity of the process or the project. But what, what the recommendation is really saying is we can do it at the local level. We'd like our federal partners to do the sameHost:Now to kind of wrap it up. I know the last areas, it really kind of goes into the job creation and employment issue, which is, which is especially important now with the effects of of the pandemic on, on employment. But the playbook discusses a number of of different areas. Here are the importance of training centers of local and targeted construction hires and support for small and medium sized businesses and, and the importance of, of expanding federal research into a lot of these emerging transportation and, you know, planning and such, where do you see this going? You know, what area in this kind of gets your attention the most?John Porcari:Well from a local perspective, this was a really pressing issue as well. So part of it is trying to squeeze again, as much value as you can out of tax dollars, by making sure the money stays in the local economy, to the extent possible. You know, at the end of the day, these infrastructure jobs or jobs you can't export, they are American jobs. And as an industry, there's a lot we can do to maximize that. But it also it also talks about taking projects as an opportunity to move people up the skill scale. So if you are learning a skilled trade from a laborer to say high voltage, electrician or welder is part of that project. You have brought someone into the middle class and doing that. And there's a whole ecosystem that could be helpful to that.John Porcari:The community colleges that are operated at the local level, we'll put together a training course for anything there's demand for. And there's a little bit of a chicken and egg aspect of this, where you need to make it, if it's clear, the demand is there for skills training, as part of infrastructure construction, the training will be there through private programs to community colleges, through unions and others, lots of providers but what we have not done and, and you can't do at the local level by yourself is systematically put, put that together into a system that lifts people up that skills ladder and provides better opportunities.Host:And that that's, you know, cross jurisdictional, because that's not just, you know, infrastructure or transportation policy, but it's educational policy at the, at the national level. It's how, how do you, how do you make the two kind of fit together, which shows, you know, the size of the task, but also the value of these recommendations to inform especially federal policy makers. Since it's an election year, I can't not ask the question. How has this playbook been received by the candidates have you or anyone else from, from, you know, who were leading this charge brought this to either the presidential campaigns or, or any of the the leadership and at the federal level to say that if, as you're, as you're developing policies, keep this in mind.John Porcari:It's a great question. At the beginning of this discussion, I mentioned that this is very much a bipartisan effort by bipartisan mayors. And so the playbook recommendations have been made available across the board people on both sides of the aisle have been briefed on it. I will just tell you from my personal perspective and personal experience and full disclosure, I'm a strong supporter of vice president Biden. The uptake of these ideas and, and concepts behind it has been very positive. There's a recognition that, that again, the innovation's at the local level, the decision making's at the local level, let's make sure we're letting our local elected officials make they know what the right choices are for their jurisdictions. Let's back them up and support them with federal policies that actually help them as opposed to getting in their way.Host:That's a really good point. And I think a good, a good area to, to leave it on. John, do you have anything else to add about the playbook? It, we've covered a lot of ground here. We know a lot of the recommendations, but is there anything, any, any final parting thought that our listeners should know going out of it?John Porcari:Well, I, again, this is, this is from a local perspective and it's very practical as mayors are. So there, there's nothing in here that can't be implemented ACEC members around the country should really think about how this can help locally. To a person ,the members are working at the local level, helping with those local choices, literally use the playbook for what it's intended to be, which is a way to help you with infrastructure, construction and, and in a more general sense, help make the connection between infrastructure and economic growth and prosperity. And the fact is, you know, if we're honest with ourselves, you can look at infrastructure coast to coast here, if you're honest with yourself, and you look at that infrastructure more than likely it was built and paid for by your parents, or maybe your grandparents, and in some cases, your great grandparents. So, it is just irresponsible of us not to invest in the future. It's the best thing we can do for the country going forward in terms of thinking about the future.Host:Yeah, really good parting thoughts there, because I think that one of the things that our members are very busy running their firms are very busy of course, with the work that they have ahead of themselves and running an office from the time of pandemic. But we can't lose sight of the fact that, that from an industry perspective, we're the thought leaders who can help drive these decision making processes at all levels of government that as an ACEC member, as a professional engineer and a business leader, there's a platform and there's expertise that our elected officials can't get anywhere else. And if they're able to use this documentthe playbook as a way to inform their thinking and develop their own thinking it'll help raise the profile of the industry as a whole, which is of course, one of the focuses of the institutes, you know, one of the key missions is to support the growth and the thought leadership of the industry.Host:But, you know, from a business sense, it'll, it'll make you more competitive when you're going for business, because you can put that economic argument behind it. You can put that, you know, like non, non partisan political argument to, to tie it all together and justify a project. I guess I do want to put a plug in because the, the ACC research Institute coming up in the, in, in, in next few weeks is going to be delving into aspects of the playbook. We're going to be doing some round tables on the playbook in conjunction with Accelerator for America. And we had our first series of round tables on the future of engineering. They were very successful and we look forward to another successful series coming up in, in only a few weeks but more information on that's going to be coming up shortly.Host:So stay tuned. We are going to post up the the, the program on the show notes, we will have a link to the, to the Accelerator for America website. And then of course, that will have the link to the playbook. John, I really appreciate your time today. Thank you so much. And I know our listeners really benefited from hearing your views and your expertise.John Porcari:It's my pleasure. And I do want to thank the ACEC Research Institute, and also everyone who's involved in putting this playbook together, because it took a lot of hands to actually get a nationwide perspective here.Host:Well hopefully we can have you back on the show a little bit later after we have those round tables and kind of maybe after once we get a better idea of what happens in November, and we get a better idea of, you know, what infrastructure policy might look like and either administration it might be good to revisit these issues. So until then, again, John Porcari, He leads advisory services at WSP, but he is also just a very, very knowledgeable individual when it comes to federal and state and local transportation policy. And thank you so much for being on the show.John Porcari:My pleasure, Jeff. Thanks.Host:And this has been Engineering Influence a podcast from the American council of engineering companies. We'll see you next time.   

Doctors Robert Rowen is a world renown Ozone and oxidative medicine clinician who creates personalized treatment plans that strive to address both the symptoms and the underlying causes of disease. The most common being energy-blocking "interference fields",  toxins in the body, a compromised metabolism, stress, unbalanced emotions, and poor nutrition. Removing these hindrances often helps your body to heal. Dr Rowen uses a myriad of therapies including Ozone therapy which we do a deep dive into in this interview. Ozone and the other forms of oxidative medicine he uses helps people recover from chronic pain, chronic fatigue, arthritis, Lyme Disease, autoimmune disorders, chronic infections, immune/allergy issues, and cardiac/circulatory system conditions. The Clinic also provides supportive therapies for patients challenged with cancer. The Need for an Innovative Approach Western medicine has made great strides in emergency medicine and surgical techniques. Despite this progress, some ailments stubbornly resist conventional treatment. There is also increasing evidence that some pharmacological treatments do more harm than good. For patients with difficult medical conditions, "incurable" diseases, and for those who seek to restore their health, standard medical practices are usually not the answer.   About Dr Rowen    Doctor Robert Rowen has been practicing medicine for more than three decades. He graduated Phi Beta Kappa from Johns Hopkins University before attending medical school at the University of California, San Francisco. Following medical school and residency, he attained Board certification in two fields: Family Practice and Emergency Medicine. Finding that pharmacological medicine could do more harm than good, Doctor Rowen made the leap to integrative medicine in the 1980's. He practiced in Alaska from 1979 to 2001 before joining Dr. Su in Santa Rosa in 2001. Dr. Rowen has developed an international reputation for pioneering work in oxidation and other innovative medical treatments. He spearheaded Alaska's first initiative to provide statutory protection for integrative medical treatments and was appointed to the Alaska State Medical Board. He is a frequent lecturer on oxidation, food and nutrition, the limitations of conventional Western medicine and other topics. Dr. Rowen uses YouTube and Facebook to provide public insight into his approach, often accompanied by commentary from his patients. Dr. Rowen has received awards from the American College for Advancement of Medicine (ACAM), International Oxidation Medicine Association (IOMA), Society for Oxidative and Photonic Medicine (SOPMed), American Academy of Ozonotherapy (AAO), and other organizations for his work in oxidation medicine and advocacy for medical freedom. Dr. Rowen was awarded the Cancer Control Society's Humanitarian Award in 2013. https://drrowendrsu.com/   Link to the video on how to use ozone therapy by Dr Rowen and Dr Su. https://drrowendrsu.com/our-blog/ozone-without-borders-home-ozone-demonstration/   If you are wanting to purchase an at home ozone therapy kit please contact Kim Saxton who was on this podcast in episode 151. Kim owns www.naturalozone.co.nz and can help get you set up for using ozone for a myriad of uses at home.    We would like to thank our sponsors for this show:   For more information on Lisa Tamati's programs, books and documentaries please visit www.lisatamati.com   For Lisa's online run training coaching go to https://www.lisatamati.com/page/running/ Join hundreds of athletes from all over the world and all levels smashing their running goals while staying healthy in mind and body.   Lisa's Epigenetics Testing Program https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics/ measurement and lifestyle stress data, that can all be captured from the comfort of your own home   For Lisa's Mental Toughness online course visit: https://www.lisatamati.com/page/mindsetu-mindset-university/   Lisa's third book has just been released. It's titled "Relentless - How A Mother And Daughter Defied The Odds" Visit: https://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ for more Information   ABOUT THE BOOK: When extreme endurance athlete, Lisa Tamati, was confronted with the hardest challenge of her life, she fought with everything she had. Her beloved mother, Isobel, had suffered a huge aneurysm and stroke and was left with massive brain damage; she was like a baby in a woman's body. The prognosis was dire. There was very little hope that she would ever have any quality of life again. But Lisa is a fighter and stubborn. She absolutely refused to accept the words of the medical fraternity and instead decided that she was going to get her mother back or die trying. This book tells of the horrors, despair, hope, love, and incredible experiences and insights of that journey. It shares the difficulties of going against a medical system that has major problems and limitations. Amongst the darkest times were moments of great laughter and joy. Relentless will not only take the reader on a journey from despair to hope and joy, but it also provides information on the treatments used, expert advice and key principles to overcoming obstacles and winning in all of life's challenges. It will inspire and guide anyone who wants to achieve their goals in life, overcome massive obstacles or limiting beliefs. It's for those who are facing terrible odds, for those who can't see light at the end of the tunnel. It's about courage, self-belief, and mental toughness. And it's also about vulnerability... it's real, raw, and genuine. This is not just a story about the love and dedication between a mother and a daughter. It is about beating the odds, never giving up hope, doing whatever it takes, and what it means to go 'all in'. Isobel's miraculous recovery is a true tale of what can be accomplished when love is the motivating factor and when being relentless is the only option.   Here's What NY Times Best Selling author and Nobel Prize Winner Author says of The Book: "There is nothing more powerful than overcoming physical illness when doctors don't have answers and the odds are stacked against you. This is a fiercely inspiring journey of a mother and daughter that never give up. It's a powerful example for all of us." —Dr. Bill Andrews, Nobel Prize Winner, author of Curing Aging and Telomere Lengthening.   "A hero is someone that refuses to let anything stand in her way, and Lisa Tamati is such an individual. Faced with the insurmountable challenge of bringing her ailing mother back to health, Lisa harnessed a deeper strength to overcome impossible odds. Her story is gritty, genuine and raw, but ultimately uplifting and endearing. If you want to harness the power of hope and conviction to overcome the obstacles in your life, Lisa's inspiring story will show you the path." —Dean Karnazes, New York Times best selling author and Extreme Endurance Athlete.   We are happy to announce that Pushing The Limits rated as one of the top 200 podcast shows globally for Health and fitness.  **If you like this week's podcast, we would love you to give us a rating and review if you could. That really, really helps to show get more exposure on iTunes**   Transcript of the Podcast:   Speaker 1: (00:01) Welcome to pushing the limits. The show that helps you reach your full potential with your host. Lisa Tamati brought to you by Lisatamati.com Speaker 2: (00:12) Today, I have an exciting episode with dr. Robert Rowan, who is a oxidative medicine specialist in ozone clinician from center Rosa in California. Dr. Robin is a world renowned practitioner in oxidative medicine. He graduated from the John Hopkins university and before going into integrative medicine as well. Now, dr. Rowan is going to be talking in depth about ozone therapy in particular today, but also oxidative medicine. We did a session a couple of weeks back with Kim Sexton of naturalozone.co.nz who has ozone machines in New Zealand. And if anyone is wanting to find out more about ozone and you, if you were in New Zealand or Australia, then please you can contact Kim Sexton and listen to that episode as well. But in this episode, we do a really, really deep dive with Dr. Rob into the ins and outs of ozone therapy, what it can be used for and the dangers and the, the therapies involved. Speaker 2: (01:17) Very, very interesting story. Now, before I go over to Dr. Rowan if anyone is interested in joining us for a live webinar on epigenetics, we have an epigenetics health program that looks at personalizing every area of your health and your nutrition, your exercise, even looking at your social environment, all based on your genes in optimizing food for your genes, the right environment for you. If you're interested in finding out a little bit more about epigenetics and how it can help you and our personalized approach to health, then please register it. Epigenetics.lisatamati.com or put it in the show notes, epigenetics.lisatamati.com. We holding webinars every one to two weeks at the moment. If you'd like to join us live to learn more about that right now, over to the show with dr. Robert Rowan. Speaker 2: (02:08) Well, hi everyone. It's Lisa Tamati here at pushing the limits today. I have a really, really special trade. One of the world's leading experts and ozone therapy and oxidative medicine is to guest with me today on the show dr. Robert Rowan, who is from California. So thank you very much, dr. Rowan for joining me today. I'm super excited to have you on the show. So thank you very much for, for coming on and sharing your, your amazing wisdom. Dr. Ron, can you give us a little bit of background about the work that you do and your, your clinic and in particular about ozone ozone therapy, I've been doing those on since 1986 and it changed my life. We use those on, in many different applications and aspects. One of the large you'll have to forgive Speaker 3: (03:00) Me. My I'm not sick. I just it's in here. W I do a lot of work in chronic fatigue, Lyme disease sea foods, and ozone is almost a miracle for these people. It, it's not a hundred percent. I don't want your viewers to think that anything is a hundred percent. We'll get back to that. In a moment, I do a lot of ozone for knees joints and rebuilding tissues. And if I, like I said, I started in 1986. And when I saw the first machine I looked at, I said, ozone, that's an oxidant. Aren't we supposed to be scared of oxidants. The answer to that is no, our body is all about oxidation. There's oxygen out here in the air. We breathe it. Yeah, it's an oxidant. It's not as powerful as ozone, but PO's on his oxygen. And our own body makes ozone and most people don't know this. It may close on his part of our defense against diseases like COVID other viruses and bacteria and our bodies make a whole host of oxidants, including bleach, hydrogen peroxide, ozone nitric, oxide, something called singlet oxygen, super oxide, and more. And this is our part of our bodies. Army are defenses against infection, and it leads to a lot of really quite good things. We wouldn't be here if we didn't have it. And if we do ozone therapy, we're just augmenting natural processes. Speaker 2: (04:46) Right. It's because I, you know, I've been a little bit confused in the research that I've been doing. Cause I was like you said, originally going, hang on oxidative, oxidants aren't we meant to be running away from having oxidative stress in our cells and anti taking antioxidants. And so on, on reactive oxygen species is meant to be a bad thing. And here we are introducing an oxidant into the body. So I was a little bit like, how does that work? Is it like a hermetic stress when you introduce ozone into the body that it creates a cascade of feet? Is that what's going on? Speaker 3: (05:21) There's something called hormesis. How do you adapt to anything? All organisms adapt by a stress stress by itself. Isn't necessarily bad. If I want to build muscles, for example, I pump and that creates stress on the muscles and the muscles adapt. They get bigger, hopefully and stronger ozone is the same thing. It's like a controlled burn that stimulates our anti burning defenses so that our immune system is much more robust. Yep. Speaker 2: (05:59) Okay. So now, dr. Rowan, you have a really interesting story. Now, when I heard the story about you going to Sierra Leone a few years ago, when the Ebola crisis was fallen swing, would you mind sharing the story? I've heard it on Dave Asprey's show who I absolutely love and adore what he does. The work that he does is absolutely fantastic. He's had a massive influence on my life without knowing it all the great people that he's brought to the show. But he so he told, told the story in that interview about the Ebola crisis. And you looked at the biochemistry of this virus, this horrible, horrific virus that was taking over there, and you thought, hang on, ozone could do something here. And you went down to Sierra Leone. Could you pick up that story for us? Speaker 3: (06:52) I knew that ozone would work. I just knew it because the biochemistry of the Ebola virus and COVID virus it shows us that there's some key vulnerabilities on the viral coat. It could be knocked out by ozone that's, the sustainable of ourselves have that same vulnerability too, but ourselves can repair it, viruses and bacteria cannot repair it. So it's it's analogous to this. Here are my fingers and the viral coats have something called soft hydro groups. There's an amino acid called cysteine C Y S T E I N E. And it is active by thinkers called SOFE hydro groups. If those fingers get chopped, now it's not active anymore. And it can't get into the cookie jar. So I thought this would be useful. Somebody put me in touch with the doctor in Sierra Leone who knew the president, and we were extended and official presidential invitation to go. Speaker 3: (08:03) And I recruited a buddy of mine, Howard Robbins, who didn't want to go at first. I said, he said, you're crazy. I said, I'll go. And then he thought about it for a moment. He said, wait a minute. You're not going to get all the credit for a method that I used. He came to, and while we were there, the government shut down the project through the ministry of health. And we strongly believe, and based on some credible evidence that pharma did this, they shut it down because it would've just been too dangerous that if $5 treatment would cure Ebola and therein lies the problem. So we shut down, but we managed to get the five people after the fact. And we published it in the African journal of infectious diseases. Wow. All five patients recovered. Speaker 2: (08:57) Wow. And this is a disease that had an up to 90% death rate from, from memory. So 60%, okay. 60%. So those five people, and that must have been absolutely devastating for you. You know, you're in the middle of training, the doctors and health professionals, they're like, I was hit in the, in the gonads. I can imagine really, because it really it's big money and big pharma. Who's probably come in and shut this down so that they can sell their drugs instead. And because ozone is not going to make anybody rich, anytime soon it shut down. And this is something that you're seeing, you know, quite a lot of the, sort of this war going on, it would say there's a, there's a war going on. We think that's true. Yeah. And I think, you know, like shows like this. So that's why they're important because they make people aware of what's going on and make people ask questions and look outside the standard standard of care to, to therapies that are, that are really, really powerful. So okay. So in the light today of the Corona virus, do you see ozone as having a big role to play in, in helping people in dire straits with this? Can it perhaps knock out the Corona virus? I know we'd have to be careful what we say, but well we have free speech here and I'm not, I can say what I believe. Speaker 3: (10:31) I believe that ozone would be the treatment of choice for this virus. I said that in articles that I published in the peer review journal, I believe it's the ideal antiviral I would want to get to the patient before they're in dire straits. If they're in dire straits, they're in dire straits, you want to get too long before that. And you want to start treating them early because I mean, any, any physician will tell you it's better to take care of something earlier rather than later. Speaker 2: (11:00) Absolutely. Absolutely. And there is a lot of work going on around the world with ozone in comp and sometimes in combination with hyperbaric oxygen therapy, which is something that I've been very vocal about and, and used a lot and had a clinic here. Do you see that that's a really good combination is ozone and hyperbarics sort of related in a way Speaker 3: (11:29) They're all oxygen based therapies. Hyperbaric is an oxygenation therapy. Ozone is more of an oxidation therapy, but they all, they all possess some similar properties. Speaker 2: (11:46) And that's the whole point of both of these therapies or one of the main ones is delivering oxygen, hypoxic Speaker 3: (11:53) Tissue and getting more oxygen. Can you explain the 03? And so oxygen is O2. We know that ozone is O3, once it gets into the bloodstream. And we'll talk about delivery mechanisms in a moment what's it actually doing when it gets inside? Can you explain the mechanisms of action there? All right. Well, we breathe out. So here you have 02 in a lightening bolt or an electric discharge or ultraviolet splits it and oxygen goes careening off to an Oh two. And now you have all three. It's not a very stable molecule. It's got a half-life in Romero of about 30 minutes. And then it composes back to O2, but is extremely reactive oxygen in the air is not that reactive. If it was, we would burn up, but you need a source of ignition. Do you understand that? Yup. Yup. Mixed gasoline and air. Speaker 3: (12:52) And you need a source of ignition for it to ignite. Yup. So oxygen alone. Doesn't do it. Ozone carries the ignition. It carries the spark. When ozone is given to a, somebody, a whole cascade of things happens, ozone reacts instantly with blood components. One of the things that it does that incites is an increase in something called two, three DGP, which enables red cells to deliver more oxygen to tissues. So in that sense, it's an oxygenation treatment. Those would also improves red blood cell flexibility. So we can get through the red cell is bigger than a capillary. Yeah. And it can't get through the red cell has to flex to get through. So it improves that ozone seems to stimulate mitochondrial oxygen consumption. Okay. Mitochondria are the furnaces of the bite of the cells that have power packs that make the energy. So they are going to use a lot more. Speaker 3: (13:56) I think up to 50 times, the amount of oxygen when, when, when no, the mitochondria are in all cells and they're dependent upon getting oxygen to make energy. Now your white blood cells fight infection. And when they're fighting infection, they need 50 to 100 times more oxygen than they do when they're at rest. Wow. Anything you can do to get oxygen to them is going to help them. So hyperbaric will help them by getting more oxygen. Ozone will help them by assisting with oxygen. Ozone also stimulates a modulation of the immune system, sort of immune system is overactive like this. It brings it into balance like this that's underactive. It brings it back into balance. Ozone modulates, the immune system, ozone stimulate certain enzymes. One is called heme originates, which is an anti inflammatory enzyme. Ozone increases the NF, our pathway, which is an anti aging antioxidant pathway. And it's one of the most fabulous substances ever seen in medicine, but it's not used much because it can't be patented. So it's not pushed only people who think are using it Speaker 2: (15:17) As was some of these broad spectrum medicines as again therapies. It is the, the age old problem of you can't patent something. So therefore it's of no use to anybody doing you know, randomized control trials. So, okay. So, so ozone is very, very powerful when it gets into the body. Something I was trying to understand it doesn't make hydrogen peroxide. And isn't the hydrogen peroxide like a disinfectant Speaker 3: (15:51) Oh, zone itself is a disinfectant. Ultraviolet is a disinfectant. Bleach is a disinfected. Our body makes bleach, our body makes hydrogen peroxide. Wow. Ozone does work through hydrogen peroxide mechanisms. Speaker 2: (16:09) So it's, it does it when it, when it first enters the bloodstream, it cause as you said, it's very reactive. So it doesn't stay in its stable state very long. It, it pings off and starts to do different things. Does it, is it creating the hydrogen peroxide and please, you know, I might get this all wrong. And then it's becoming, you know, oxidants that are then doing their job in different parts of the body. Speaker 3: (16:38) When I was on enters the blood, it reacts instantly and it creates a downstream cascade of what we call ozone eyes. Hydrogen peroxide is one of them. Aldehydes cyclic oxygen compounds are still oxidants, but not as powerful as ozone those on reacts instantly. It's gone instantly. And then it leaves behind the, what we call these reactive oxygen species. And they do the work. Speaker 2: (17:11) They do the work cause we've, we've been 29. And just going back to the beginning of the conversation, that reactive oxygen species of dangerous things, and they ping around the cell and cause damage, everything has to Speaker 3: (17:22) Being balanced, Speaker 2: (17:23) Right? Speaker 3: (17:24) Here's the best way I can explain it. You're a woman. You have both testosterone and estrogen in your body. It's the balance for you? And I have the same hormones and it's a different balance for me. All right. So reactive oxygen species are in balance in our body. We cannot live without them, right? But if you get too much of them in certain forms, it can be deleterious when COVID or Ebola stimulates, what's called a cytokine storm, which is how people are dying. Now you're having overwhelmingly too much. Speaker 2: (18:01) So this was the immune system overreacting and sending out too many soldiers to fight the battle and actually shooting everything good, bad. And the ugly thing in sight, Speaker 3: (18:11) Those on ozone could help modulator Speaker 2: (18:13) That modulate. So it's a modulator. So if it's overreacting or underreacting, it will bring it into balance. Everything seems to be in medicine. The more I study, the more I learned that everything's a Goldie locks Speaker 3: (18:26) Principle, isn't it? Everything is Goldilocks. Everything has to be imbalanced. Look, they talk about the earth position from the sun is the Goldilocks zone, right? Everything is balanced. Yeah. Everything was when you when you're carrying a shopping bag, you're putting a stress on your body, your body adapts and reacts to it. It has to, and that's what life is about for both plants and animals is adaptation. So we're doing what controlled adaptation here and it's helping the immune system build its muscle. Speaker 2: (19:00) Wow. Okay. So can you can we now pivot a little bit into ultraviolet radiation because this is one of the other oxidative medicines that I I believe you're an expert and, and know about, can you earn, and this is something that has really, I've never heard of it prior to learning about you is what is ultraviolet radiation? And can you give us a little bit of the history of it and how is it being used today still? Speaker 3: (19:32) Yeah, this is provide Ozon was developed in Europe, although Nicola Tesla patented in American generator and around 1900 or so, ultra violet was developed here originally. And there was a machine called the knot, K N O T T hemo radiator. There's still a couple on the planet and it is a phenomenal treatment and it was published. There's a whole series of articles that came out in the late 30s through the 40s. Lots of them on its use in infection. And it is a sister therapy of ozone. It is an oxidation therapy because ultraviolet has ionizing radiation and it kicks off an electron. So it's considered an it's in the family of oxidation therapies. The two have very similar longterm mechanisms of actions and the articles that were published in our literature and the 1940s were simply stunning when it came to infection. Speaker 2: (20:35) Wow. And what is it actually doing in the body? So you're delivering the light somehow into the Speaker 3: (20:41) Delivering light to the blood, the blood absorbs ultraviolet. And then that simulates a series reactions, not too dissimilar to ozone. Speaker 2: (20:51) Right. Is it, is it a bit like photo synthesis for clowns? You know, is it the miter totally different? I thought, well, maybe they've got photo receptors on the mitochondria and that's, what's actually causing it. So, no, it's not Speaker 3: (21:05) In the case of ultraviolet blood drips down a chamber here on this side and light is coming through here and striking the blood as it goes. And that causes chemical changes in the blood similar to what ozone does. Wow. Speaker 2: (21:24) Okay. And is this still being used today? Because I know Ema Knott was very he had off awful travels didn't they? He, he, he was the man who invented this originally and got shut down again by people, shall we say? Can you, again some sort of mafia came along and shut down his his work along with, with other people Speaker 3: (21:54) Actually in his case, their company went out of business, went out of business because tomorrow's Fishbein who ran the American medical association. One of the pieces of this company, you said no to Maurice can have it. So Mara's felt to destroy the company and he set up a bogus study and this is what, I'm, what I've learned. And between that, and the advent of antibiotics, antibiotics were just coming out. Then it's very easy to give somebody a pill. It was a lot easier than to do a blood treatment. Yeah. So the company actually went out of business, but some of the machines survived Speaker 2: (22:36) And nowadays there are other people looking into this area of science again. Oh yes. So we can get access to new machinery. Are you doing this type of therapy? Speaker 3: (22:48) I do ultraviolet in my office. I'm very happy with it. Speaker 2: (22:53) Okay. Cause I, I don't, I'm not aware of it, anybody doing it down here, I'd be very interested to find out if it's still being done or people are picking that up again because all of these, is it similar to photo biomodulation or is that a different thing again? And low level laser therapy, Speaker 3: (23:12) Laser therapy is different. It's a different mechanism. It's different. It's different than this. Yeah. This is actually frankly, irradiating the blood it's rewriting radiating the blood with ultraviolet and it's not just ultraviolet. It's several different spectrums, but with ultraviolet being the main ultraviolet, let's see being the main spectrum. Speaker 2: (23:33) Wow. Okay. So something to do more research on and learn more about what's the, what's the ozone now, there are different ways of delivering it. And I, I've got a ozone cast here and there are certain things that I can do and certain things that I can't do as a, as a lay person in my home. Can you explain the different types of therapies and what, which ones are the most powerful and including the prolotherapy and protozoan injections, which I believe you do as well. And the other ways that you can get ozone into the body, Speaker 3: (24:11) There's, you can give ozone every way to the body that you want to give. Except one, you can't breathe, you can't breathe. It, it will be harmful to the lungs, but it can be given in the blood. You can make those on water and drink it. You can put it through a stethoscope, into your ears. Women can take it into their vagina. Oh, sexes can do rectal. I've put it in the bladder. I've injected the man's prostate. I inject joints muscle under the skin really, really safe. The only downside is if you don't do it right, it can stink. The injection itself can stink. It can be uncomfortable. But other than that, it's extraordinarily safe. I've done many, many thousands of these with not a hitch. Speaker 2: (25:03) And, and so we were doing IV therapies. This is a doctor only medical way of delivering it. Is that the most powerful way and like 10 paths or, Speaker 3: (25:17) Yeah. Those what you're trying to do. If you had a local vaginal problem, would you take it IV? No. You would take vaginal. Know if you have a local joint problem, you would take it in your joint. But if you have a systemic problem and COVID is systemic, or you have Lyme disease, which doesn't exist in Australia, I think, you know that yeah. Medical authorities don't believe that there is such a thing as Lyme disease. The American CDC says there's 300,000 new cases every year in this country. Wow. But if you have Lyme disease or a systemic problem then you want to do it systemically in your blood. Speaker 2: (26:05) Okay. And there is 10 past therapy. Can you explain what team passes as opposed to just a normal life? Yes. Speaker 3: (26:13) Therapy is very high dose ozone it's high dose. Yeah. The standard ozone therapy involves taking 200 CCS of blood and maybe 8,000 micrograms of ozone in that blood with 10 pass therapy, we're giving 144,000 micrograms. Wow. Wow. Speaker 2: (26:40) [So it's basically taking the blood out, putting the ozone, putting the blood back in and repeating that process 10 times. So we're just really is this for really acute cases where you're, you know, you've run out of options. And I think we have that here in New Zealand. I don't think we have any doctor doing that type of procedure, unfortunately, down under, or at least in New Zealand, perhaps in Australia. But, but rectally and ear and supplication and so on is just as powerful. Speaker 3: (27:13) No, it's not, I don't think it's just as powerful, but I believe the end result will probably be very similar Speaker 2: (27:21) If we haven't repeated. Yeah. can I help with brain injury? I've have just released a book relentless, which tells the story of bringing my mum back after a mess of aneurysm. They've toured with major brain damage at age four 74. And I did hyperbaric oxygen therapy with her, which was an absolute cornerstone of her therapy along with a lot of other things. And I'm only just now getting to the ozone, can that help with brain damage? I mean, she's now normal, but yeah, it can help. Speaker 3: (27:54) I would do ozone for any sort of damage because any damage involves low oxygen and getting more oxygen is critically important. Speaker 2: (28:03) Yep. Would the ear insufflation given that we hear, like, for example, can't get Ivy, we can't get anything else. Would that be enough? Speaker 3: (28:17) Everything is relative. It depends. I know people it's, I know some people have fixed their hearing, their dizziness, it fixed the respiratory infections. I've heard of the arrows on doing all kinds of things. And by the way, your viewers should know that home ozone demonstration is available for a donation of 20 us dollars toes on without borders, ozone, http://www.ozonewithoutborders.ngo/ made a video of all the homos on methods and donated it to that organization to get proceeds. Speaker 2: (28:54) Okay. So that was http://www.ozonewithoutborders.ngo/ Speaker 3: (28:59) And as in Nancy, G as in George, O as in Oscar. Speaker 2: (29:03) Okay. We'll put that in the show notes. So people can go and buy that for $20 us and get an explanation of how to set up your own home therapy, which is absolutely brilliant. Cause it is quite complicated and you need to know what you're doing and the dangers in relation to, to the lungs. Okay. Well, doctor Dr. Rowan, I just want to thank you so much for your time today. I really, really appreciate it. I, you know, it's pretty late over there. I think so. I don't want to take up too much of your time, but I just want to thank you for the work that you've been doing in this area and for sharing this, the oxidative medicine and ozones therapy all around the world. I mean, you are one of the topics fits in the world, so sick to get you know, a bit of time with you today has been a true honor. Speaker 2: (29:49) And I really, really thank you for all the work that you're doing. Thank you for having me. I hope it helps in our website. People should go to that. Cause I got information and articles that I published there. It's dr. Rowan, https://drrowendrsu.com/, D R R O W E N D R SU, .com, dr. Rowan, https://drrowendrsu.com/. Okay. I'll make sure that that gets in the show notes and if anybody has questions, they can, they can reach out to you there. So thank you very much for your time today. I really, really appreciate it, dr. Rowan. Speaker 2: (30:28) Thank you. Thank you. Thanks everybody. I hope you enjoyed that show. I just wanted to let you know a little bit of great news for the show for pushing the limits, which has been going now for five years, it's a labor of love and something that I've been very, very passionate about sharing all these great insights with you. And we've just been rated in the top 200 shows of an entire world in the health and fitness Journal. So that's a really, really a great achievement for the show. And I'd just like to thank the whole team that's in behind all this to make this happen. And we would love you to give us a rating and review if you could. That really, really helps to show get more exposure on iTunes. That would be super, super appreciated. So top 200, thanks very much for being a listener and we love your loyalty and we really appreciate you. Speaker 1: (31:13) That's it this week for pushing the limits, be sure to write review and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at Lisatamati.com.        

So often self-talk influences us what we think and do in life. But are all our thoughts our own, or are there outside forces that influence our perceptions? How can we be sure that we are listening to the right "voices"? Guest-speaker, Dr. Darryl DelHousaye (Chancellor of Phoenix Seminary) shares more on this topic in this teaching titled "Think Right To Do Right".

Of course, we all want a healthy bank account. Having a good amount of dollars within easy grasp is helpful in the case of emergencies or for medium-sized purchases where you don’t want to have to liquidate assets. But is it counterproductive to have too much cash on hand? We’ll explore that idea and other pressing questions about the role that cash plays in financial and retirement planning. Important Links Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381 ----more---- Transcript Of Today's Show: Speaker 1: Hey everybody, welcome in to Plan With The Tax Man. Thanks for tuning into our podcast. As always, with Tony Mauro talking about all things investing, finance, retirement, taxes, all that good stuff here on the show. As always, we appreciate your time. And Tony, buddy, what's going on? How are you? Tony Mauro: I'm good. Glad to be back from the holidays and getting busy. Speaker 1: I know, yeah, it's been hectic already. So we are in, this is our first, technically, this is our first podcast of the new year. So obviously the new year kicked off a little heavy, a little busy. So lots to catch up on and get into. We've got several things we're going to talk about. But before we jump into our main topic, let me ask you a question. Speaking of the new year, IRS contribution limits changed. Tony Mauro: Yeah. Speaker 1: So let's discuss that real quick. $6,000 for any type of IRA, 7,000 to 50 and older. Correct? Is that right? Tony Mauro: That is correct. Speaker 1: What else have we got? Tony Mauro: We've also increased the limits for the 401ks and some other retirement plans. Speaker 1: Okay. Tony Mauro: They're doing a $500 increase. 19,500, and then if you're 50 plus, all the way up to 26,000. And they've also bumped up the contributions on the Seps and the Simples and even the HSA. So, I would encourage everybody to check with their financial advisor or their tax man or woman to see what those are. Because those are an important piece of hopefully what you're doing to save for retirement. Speaker 1: Yeah. And it seems like they do this, what, about every other year it seems like we're touching on the fact that it's $500 bumps or so. Because I don't think it was last year, was it? Tony Mauro: They didn't do much last year, but generally they're doing something every year, just bumping them up for probably just inflationary purposes. Speaker 1: Right. Tony Mauro: Which, like I say, for those of us that are at or near those limits, I always encourage people that if they can to, you bump yours up too. Speaker 1: Right, right. Tony Mauro: Bump up the limits. Yeah. Speaker 1: Yeah. And a lot of times people feel like they're maybe behind the eight ball. I think we all get to let's say 50 and we're like, "Yeah, I probably should be putting more away." While it may not necessarily set you for retirement, let's say for the example of the 26,000 if you're 50 plus. I mean if you did that for the next 10 to 15 years, let's say from 50 to 65, that's a pretty good chunk of change you're able to put away. Tony Mauro: True. It sure is. You take the 260 and then you add a little bit of some sort of reasonable rate of return to that. And yeah, by 65 it's going to be well worth your time and effort to do that. It, more than likely if it's invested properly, diversified and all that, it's going to be well worth more than the 260 that you started with. So. [Crosstalk 00:02:33]. Speaker 1: I mean, you're probably somewhere, what, 300 to maybe 450, maybe even a half a million dollars depending on how it's invested and how the markets do over that time obviously. But certainly half a million dollars goes a long way towards a healthy retirement. Tony Mauro: It goes a long way. Speaker 1: That's [crosstalk 00:02:47]. Tony Mauro: I tell you once I turned 50 you really start thinking about that more than you ever have. So. Speaker 1: Very true. Very true. All right, so folks, again, the contribution limits have increased yet again. So, if you are not working with Tony and you're checking out the podcast, give him a call and see how he can help you out with getting yourself planned correctly for retirement. That's what he does at Tax Doctor Inc. Of course, he is an EA and a certified financial planner as well. Speaker 1: All right, so let's get into our main topic on this first one here, our podcast today. And we are going to talk a little bit about good old cash. Good old Benjamins. You've got to like the Benjamins. Tony Mauro: You've always got to like having a lot of cash. Most people wish they had more. Speaker 1: Oh, very true. All right, so we all want a healthy bank account, right? We all feel that definitely. I mean I get it. And we all have like this, I don't know, it's like a magical number that somehow seems to exist in each person's head that they want to see in their savings account or in their... Whatever, right? Like, "Oh, I don't feel comfortable if I don't have X dollars." Or whatever the case might be. And of course, like you said, we always want more. Speaker 1: But it can be counterproductive, especially again, from our standpoint here on the podcast, we're typically talking to retirees and pre-retirees. So, too much cash can get you in a little bit of trouble there because it's, not necessarily trouble, but it's just not being effective. It's not doing as much as you'd like it to do. Speaker 1: So, with that in mind, what are some of the possible uses of cash that make it a good idea to have that sufficient amount on hand? And are we talking about simply an emergency fund, Tony? Are we talking about above that where we're just, it's basically just sitting there doing nothing. Tony Mauro: Well, I think we're talking about above that. What I've seen in most people is the first thing they'll do is say, "Well, I do have a savings account." But it's just one account and that's supposed to cover their emergency fund when things break down in the house, their vacations, their Christmas fund. And so to me, I think it's more important to break off into separate accounts for every little thing. You should have your emergency fund in one account that should be funded for, if you are working, the emergency happens, you lose your job. Speaker 1: Gotcha. Tony Mauro: You've got to have living expenses for so long. But you should break up your "home repairs" fund, your travel fund, and then fund those just like you were in your own little mini business. So that way you know how much you've got to have in each of those every year, so that you don't have to stress out about when the dishwasher goes out or you want to take a vacation. Things like that. Tony Mauro: So I think the more of those you have and can fund properly over time, you're going to be much less stressed about cash. Now above those things, I don't think you should have just another, say, 40, 50... I've seen people with as much as $100,000 sitting in a checking or savings because there's just no earnings on them. Speaker 1: Yeah. And that's the counterproductive side, right? It's just basically you're losing money safely. Tony Mauro: Yeah. You're losing money safely. And if you've got all those other things covered, you probably should move that into something that at least gets you a little bit of earnings. Even if it's a CD money market, some short term type of thing. Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. I mean because when was the last time anybody had $100,000 emergency? I mean, I guess some people do depending on your lifestyle, but still. Yeah, that's not, I mean, and again, I get it. There's an emotional component to looking at it and going, "I just feel better seeing X number of dollars." Speaker 1: So that begs the question then, how much is an appropriate amount to have? I know it varies from person to person. Is there, I don't know, is there... I know for emergency funds sometimes some people will say 6 months worth or 12 months worth of expenses should you lose your job or whatever. I don't know. What's your thoughts? Tony Mauro: Well, my thoughts for emergency fund, it really runs along the general consensus with most planners is 3 to 6 months of your living expenses for an emergency fund. The key there though is that should only be for emergencies. We shouldn't be tapping that for vacations and my car breaks down. Because I think you should have a separate fund for that and that should be, everybody's different but 5, 7, $8,000 in that one, just to cover things that come up. Then beyond that, again, I'm a big different funds guy. I'm the old Dave Ramsey, the old envelope system. I like to have a fund for everything and a little bit gets allocated to each one and then I'm covered. Speaker 1: Right. Tony Mauro: But most people don't think like that but I try to get them to think like that. Because then that way once you have all that covered, you shouldn't really have a lot of cash on hand other than to pay your expenses and go out and I call it have fun with. Speaker 1: Now I hear people say stuff like any other investment, no more than 5 or 10%. You'll hear things like that as well. Tony Mauro: Right. Speaker 1: Does that fall in that same line? Okay, so you've got your buckets for your different things, emergencies and whatnot. And then additionally, sitting in cash, let's be smart and not do more than 5% or so, because again, it's not working hard for you if you have much more than that. It's just sitting there. Tony Mauro: That's right. I generally use between the 5 and 10 when we're doing planning. After, if we can get clients to use the different buckets and/or envelopes, then yeah, after that you've got enough to pay your bills every month. And you have a little bit of a cushion just in case. Then the rest should be working for you somehow. Speaker 1: Okay. Well I'm going to jump to this last question here because I think the other one we've already answered. So for maybe a client or a potential client, Tony, that comes in and talks with you, who's gotten used to having a large amount. Let's say that $100,000 person we were just talking about. And you're trying to talk with them about, okay, this is just too much sitting there. What's a way they can invest more efficiently without necessarily giving themselves a heart attack because they're watching... Let's say they're jumping into the market right now, obviously when it's new highs every other day it seems like. What's some smart ways to maybe peel that ridiculously too much cash back? Any ideas there, something you can share with us? Tony Mauro: Well, I would say the first thing is, of course, before you even put the money in, is decide on some conservative type of investment, if you will, just to get started. Of course, and everybody's different, it depends on their goals and their risk appetite and all that. But all that being aside and once you have that determined, really, I still like the old fashioned dollar cost averaging, so that depending on what you are going into, you're not just throwing $100,000, let's say into a bond fund for example. Speaker 1: Right. Tony Mauro: And then all of a sudden rates go up and the prices of the bond fund go down and then you can't figure out what happened. And that's, again, too much stress. We have all this stuff coming at us already every day. We don't need that. So that's what I recommend, is just going slow and especially in high markets, like you said, no reason to just jump on in. Speaker 1: Well, it's, what is the adage, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. Tony Mauro: A little bite. Yes. Speaker 1: Yeah. So same thing. If you do have way too much cash sitting there, don't just, and you're working with an advisor and they're deciding to do that, yeah, like you said, don't maybe just go ahead and just break it all down. Do things gradual too. Because that will help you deal with the stress or the would be "heart attack" of seeing it all go down. It's not necessarily going down, it's just going into different, hopefully, allocations and investment vehicles that are just going to make it work a little harder for you. Because I mean, interest rates are still, let's be honest, they're still pretty much garbage. Tony Mauro: Yeah. Speaker 1: So, you're not getting anything at the bank, right? Tony Mauro: No. You're not getting anything there. And we talk about, a lot about having it work for you, but at the same time preservation of principal, return of principal is, at least for most of our clients, is the number one goal. Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, I was talking with somebody a while back and they were talking about, they look at their money as different types of... Well how did they word that? Kind of different groupings of the military, like the soldiers, if you will. And each soldier, each division of money has its job to go out and conquer, so on and so forth, and be effective in recruiting more soldiers. So making more money basically. Right? Speaker 1: So you want to have jobs... Your money needs to have a job just like you have a job. What's its job, what's it doing and is it being effective in growing? And of course, some of that stuff's going to sit there. But again, if you have too much, you have what we call lazy money and you're just losing purchasing power and all that kind of stuff. Speaker 1: So that's the idea of not getting too enamored with the Benjamins. We all like looking at him, that's for sure. But we want to make sure that we're being effective and not just having too much cash, and it's sitting around not doing us any good. Speaker 1: So that was our main topic this week on the podcast with Tony. If you've got questions or concerns, as always, make sure you check them out online. You can go to yourplanningpros.com. That is yourplanningpros.com. Subscribe to this podcast while you're there at Google, Spotify, iHeart, Stitcher, lots of different platforms that you can choose from. We make it easy for you to hopefully share that as well as subscribe. And if you do have questions, always, always, always check with a qualified professional before you take any action. And you can call Tony if need be at 844-707-7381. That's 844-707-7381. Speaker 1: All right, my friend, now I've got an email question here before I let you go this week from Beth in West Des Moines. And Beth says, "Tony, I could sell the house right now for a half million and I only owe a thousand, a hundred thousand, excuse me on that. So, and I'm 57 but I'm thinking about selling it, downsizing and then using that extra cash, roughly 400,000 or so to retire now. Is that a bad idea? Tony Mauro: Well, I would say without knowing any more facts right off the top, yes. I wouldn't agree with that idea at all. Speaker 1: Okay. Tony Mauro: But there could be other extenuating circumstances. But off the top of my head, so you sell it for 500, you owe 100, so you're going to net 400,000. Granted, assuming she's lived there for two of the last five years, the gain's not going to be taxable. So throwing that aside, your first inkling is well, 400,000, that sounds pretty good. But at 57 there's a lot of life left [crosstalk 00:00:13:09] Speaker 1: A lot of retiring years, yeah. Tony Mauro: Yeah, ahead of you. And even if you can put that money to work at let's say 4 or 5%, that's going to be depleted, assuming you live to 75, 80 years old, which is the norm these days. So, if it were me... And then we're not even addressing the fact that you've got to put some of that money maybe into another place, unless you go back into a mortgage, which I don't particularly like. So I don't know how much you'd even have there to even invest. It sounds good right off the top, but I think there's more to think about there and I would definitely get some advice on that. Speaker 1: Yeah. And there's, I mean, granted she doesn't mention, we have no idea if she has any other savings set aside or retirement accounts, a 401k. We're assuming that maybe she probably does. Tony Mauro: Right. Speaker 1: So there's probably some other things in there. So definitely need some more information. And the one piece that I would definitely toss out there, Beth, as well as what are you going to do from a medical standpoint from 57 to 65? Tony Mauro: Exactly. Exactly. I mean, if you're retiring from somewhere you can't get on Medicare, so you're going to have to- Speaker 1: That's 8 years, man. Tony Mauro: ... go out and purchase insurance. Speaker 1: That's a long time. Yeah. Tony Mauro: It's expensive and so you're going to have to take that into account. So again, you've got to plan all that out and take all that into account. And then if it's still a good idea, if you think it is, then you can make that decision with all the facts. Speaker 1: Well, and Beth, you may already have answers to some of these, you just didn't share those with us. So based on this information, I would definitely say talk with your advisor and spend more time chatting about that. And look at all your numbers or reach out to Tony as well. Speaker 1: And I was thinking about it, we mentioned the medical side, Tony, it's so funny now that things are so out of skew. Remember how it used to be that if you said, "Well, I'm going to have to do COBRA for a certain amount of time." You're like, "Oh my gosh, it's going to be so crazy expensive." Isn't it wild that COBRA is not the craziest option now because things are so out of control. Isn't that nuts? Tony Mauro: It's crazy. I think, we still have to fix this- Speaker 1: Oh no, for sure. Tony Mauro: ... as a nation because it's just, it's out of control. Speaker 1: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. I was looking at some stuff the other day and it was somebody was pointing out that COBRA's not the worst option. I was like, "Wow, who would've thought that?" Tony Mauro: Yeah. Speaker 1: So there you go. So Beth, all right, so check into those things. Definitely the medical side as well, because eight years is a long time to not have something in place. Speaker 1: All right, so that's our show for this week. Thanks so much for tuning in to Plan With The Tax Man. As always, please, please, please subscribe to the podcast. We certainly would appreciate it. Share the message with someone who might benefit from that as well. That's just basically sharing the podcast with them and see if they can enjoy a little, a few nuggets of useful information that we do here from time to time on the podcast. Speaker 1: And Tony, my friend, thanks so much. I'll catch you in a couple of weeks. I hope you have a good one. Tony Mauro: All right, take care. Speaker 1: We'll talk to you next time here on Plan With The Tax Man with Tony Mauro, Des Moines' professional alternative at Tax Doctor Inc. Don't forget to go to yourplanningpros.com. That's yourplanningpros.com.

So you want a new keynote, a ‘sexier’ presentation, the perfect story, to find the funny, or better platform technique. You need a SPEAKER COACH! With myriad choices available, who is best for YOU? Darren and Mark discuss their experiences as both coach and client, and give solid advice for finding the perfect partner to help you deliver your UNFORGETTABLE PRESENTATION!

Justin Womack, the owner of JMack Media LLC, a digital marketer, copywriter, podcast manager, and Fiverr Pro joins Casey Eberhart for an interview on Casey's "Expand the Business" Podcast. In this interview, Justin discusses how earning the Fiverr Pro designation has impacted his business as well as how becoming a podcast host of two shows has moved the needle. Justin Womack is the co-host of the Marketing Geeks Podcast along with Andros Sturgeon. Marketing Geeks is a top 100 Business - Management & Marketing Podcast on Apple Podcasts and has hit as high as #1 in the category of management & marketing. Justin is also the host of a podcast that he runs for the company BannerSeason where he interviews top promoters within the company about how they leverage the company's technology to grow their businesses. If you'd like to connect with Justin Womack and take him up on a few of his offers if they are still available, check out the links below: Visit Justin Womack's website for JMack Media LLC: https://jmackmedia.com View Justin Womack's Fiverr Pro Gigs at: https://www.fiverr.com/justinwomack1 Listen to the Marketing Geeks Podcast by searching "Marketing Geeks" on your favorite podcast platform or by visiting the website: https://marketinggeekspodcast.com Register for the Marketing Geeks Podcast Launchpad Webinar on July 31st, 2019 by going to: http://podcastmasterycourse.com If you have missed the webinar, the recording will be made available to all people that donate $5 or more to the Marketing Geeks Podcast. If you'd like to make a donation to receive access to this webinar replay, please visit: https://anchor.fm/marketing-geeks/support After making a $5+ donation, please send an email to info@marketinggeekspodcast.com so that we receive your email address and can delivered your webinar replay files. Justin Womack is also a promoter of BannerSeason, a marketing company that aids to improve customer relationships, incentivize referrals, and improve customer retention. With BannerSeason, users can mail automated direct mail campaigns that include personalized cards, gifts, and swag items that are triggered through CRM actions or mobile triggers. Check Out BannerSeason and Start an Account by Visiting the Website and Using Invitation Code "START" Go to https://bannerseason.com and enter the invitation code "START" in order to create your free account. Note: Using the BannerSeason service will require depositing and spending money, but you can create a basic account free of charge by going to the site and using invite code "START." This way you can explore the platform a bit before using. Want to listen to Justin Womack's BannerSeason Podcast? Find it on Apple Podcasts at: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bannerseason-podcast-create-raving-fans-build-lifetime/id1446755681 Podcast Interview Transcript: Speaker 1: (00:03) Hey everybody. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome to today's show of expand the business. I am your host Casey Everhart and I am so excited and thrilled about today's show. You guys, we are in for a huge, huge, unbelievable treat today. Um, you know, here at expand the business, what we really try to do is bring together experts, thought leaders, people that are out in the marketplace influencing and on the verge of well on the bleeding edge of not only technology but what's working now to help people really expand their business. So we're all about marketing and we're all about like kind of on the ground knuckles in really working on what's working now to help you expand the business. And today is awesome. I have been looking forward to this episode for many, many weeks. I'm actually really surprised I was able to squeeze our guest in for the time to record this just simply because his own agency is rocking and rolling. Speaker 1: (00:58) There's so much stuff going on. So let me tell you a little bit about Justin Womack, who is our very, very special guest today. So Justin is not only is he one of the kind of guys on the bleeding edge of diff technology and the bleeding edge of digital agencies and what's working now, he works with businesses and companies all over the world, really helping them focus on generating leads, ultimately making more money for those businesses. So he has a digital agency named, uh, you know, j Mack media. You can find that@jmacmediadotcomandisjmackmedia.com. He is a cohost of a podcast called the marketing gigs, which we'll talk about, uh, throughout this. If you're not, um, if you're not subscribed to the marketing Geeks podcast, I highly recommend it. We were joking today that, uh, you know, he goes with me every morning on a, on a walk. I literally am in obsessed with their podcasts and I'm listening to an episode every day, um, over at, uh, the marketing gigs. Speaker 1: (01:57) He also has another podcast that he is a host of for a company called banner season. We'll tell, we'll get a little bit inside of that. But this dude is all over the place. He's got, um, a lot of his business comes from fiber. He's actually a fiber pro, which simply means that he's vetted by them. Uh, really they got under the hood of the business and making sure that [inaudible] delivers and drives massive value to his clients. Otherwise he would never get that designation, which gives him some unique things to market his business and market his agency on five or so. We May, we may touch on that. Um, and uh, he's got a really cool podcast course coming up that you can find out more about out podcast mastery course.com. And of course I'll put the show notes, we'll put all these links and stuff inside the show notes. Speaker 1: (02:40) So without further ado, I don't have some fancy a clapping and, and sound effect here. So let me just welcome you to do the show. So Justin, welcome buddy. Thank you Casey. I love the introduction and thank you for having me and yeah, well we are, we are thrilled to have you here. And Justin of the things that, um, I always love talking to people about is kind of a multipronged approach to marketing and generating leads for your business. And I know that, you know, you do email creation and email automation, you know, you do copywriting, you've got podcast consulting and mass, Ya know, and, and management. Uh, in fact, uh, you know, if you're listening this, this is really kind of cool because Justin actually manages our podcasts here and is really putting this show on the map. So if you're listening to this on iTunes, Spotify, stitcher, or whatever it is completely in fact, um, basically all due to Justin and his team and his organizations kind of managing and producing the whole thing. Um, not only that, he is a, an infusionsoft partner as well as a banner season automation specialist. And we'll talk a little bit about that. So Justin, let's just, uh, let's just dive right into it. I would love to know your kind of, your core philosophy when it comes to marketing and how that relates to your client's businesses. Speaker 2: (04:02) I think it starts with visibility and, um, I think if I want to give it like a few resources that I kind of base my philosophies on a great, great book influence by Robert Cialdini. Um, one of my favorite books out there that's going to hit you with all the principles of how to influence people. And I, I'm all my marketing's really based on those principles. I mean things like scarcity, social proof, um, things, just ways of, of validating your expertise. One of the things that I like to tell people is, um, Fiverr's an interesting medium because a lot of people will get on Fiverr and you might have several gigs on there, but you'll never make a sale. And when I got, when I got recruited, I was one of the first five or pros recruited on the platform. Uh, they found me because I was a partner with infusion soft. Speaker 2: (04:51) So they brought me on. Um, I did, I went through an interview process. I had to take a few, uh, like exams kind of things to just validate my skills. But once they approved me, it was interesting because all of a sudden I was getting so much traffic and so much, um, so much attention only because they had gone ahead and validated me and they were a well known resource. So this, uh, this ability to leverage social proof from high end sources like a fiber like, um, like a Casey Eberhart or like, like people, you know, like influencers out there, it's powerful, powerful stuff. So if you're able to leverage other people's, um, other people that have more influence than you do and borrow some of their credibility, that's one of the biggest ways for people to get started, especially in the beginning. Speaker 1: (05:36) Yeah. So let's, let's spend a few minutes on that. So let's take a step back. Um, just for those folks that don't know about Fiverr and what it is and kind of the platform. Okay. Talk to me a little bit about what fiber is and what the platform is and what kind of things people can find all over fiber. Speaker 2: (05:54) So fiber was started as, it's a freelancing website, number one. And it was, it was created as a way for entrepreneurs and business owners to find cheap freelance, um, services that started at $5 from the platform, watched pretty much every gig was $5 and they slowly kind of evolved. Now we're able to add upsells to their $5 gigs and then eventually now with Fiverr pro, um, the minimum I'm allowed to charge is $100 for a Gig. And I think, I believe I'm up, I'm allowed to charge up to, I believe it's five or $10,000. I haven't attempted to do that. Um, but we're, we're able to charge big bucks for five or pro gigs because they validated our skills and they understand the value of not only finding somebody that can get the job done, but somebody that actually is validated, that has good reviews because there's a lot of, um, charlatans in the internet marketing space up there, especially I'll use the word charlatans. So having somebody validate you and being able to look at reviews and things like that adds a ton of credence to, um, to getting the job done. Speaker 1: (06:57) Yeah. Yeah. And for those of you that have never been on fiber, it is a like grab a glass of wine or a beer or a cigar or whatever your vices and just sit down and go check out fibers. F I v E R r.com. I joke that and I talk about this in presentations all the time, that I once paid a guy $5 in London to wear a hot dog suit, put my website on a piece of cardboard, go stand out in the middle of an intersection and spin around screaming my website for five bucks. And I only did that. I never used it as a marketing piece or anything. I just thought if some guy's going to do that for five bucks like I'm in, right? Yeah. I have used fiber for many things. I, you know, for $5 you can go on there and get 50 business quotes with your website printed on them. Speaker 1: (07:46) You can have. Um, you can, there are, when I was in the wayback machine and I was just trying to get my name and some practice being a podcast interviewee, I went on and paid several podcasts, five bucks to be a guest on their podcast. I mean there are so many different things that you can leverage. Five or four. So Justin, let's talk about fiber pro and then I want to come back to this influence and leverage thing. What types of things, and it's all based on a review system. So when you do a Gig, you get reviewed by your [inaudible] customers, correct? Correct, yes. And so what types of things does your agency promote on Fiverr pro? Where are you finding that or what are you finding that people are coming to you, that audience of Fiverr pro? What are they looking for and what are you able to bring to the table? Speaker 2: (08:35) Well, I can tell you that the best selling gigs that I have out there are four copywriting. So people that want a both, they're like a welcome sequence written for them. Or they want a sales sequence written because they have a, they have a product that they're introducing and they have a way for people to opt in on their website, but they don't have the creativity or they don't want to spend the time to actually write the copy and set up the automation. So my team will actually go in there, set up the automation, going to a site like MailChimp or active campaign, convert kit, infusion soft, whatever, whatever they're using, we can set that automation up for them and we actually write the emails so we have a complete package to get all that done. Um, beyond that, the other Gig that's the most popular would be a podcast consulting. Speaker 2: (09:19) A lot of people are starting podcasts. They, that medium is exploding, especially in 2019 it's been, it's been growing massively for the last about five years. Podcasting has been around for probably 15 plus years, but only in the last, I'd say three to five years have they really nailed down the advertising abilities on podcasts. And because of that, uh, that's why I see this as this massive, massive growth. And plus people are just understand now how important it is to have a platform where you can be visible and get your message out directly to people. Um, there's a ton of value in that and you're building a brand reputation about yourself. So it's a way of uh, creating credibility and just getting, getting your message out there. Just having a podcast is, um, people will look at you in a different light just because you have a show. It doesn't matter how good it is or what, I mean, a lot of people won't even listen to it. They'll just see that you have a show and we'll just think higher of you because you do that Speaker 1: (10:12) well. So let's, let's push in a little bit on this, this idea of leveraging influence and we'll kind of couch out around podcasting. I'll come back to copywriting a little bit later. So with marketing gigs podcast and the other podcasts that you do, how do you use that to leverage other people's influence? Like, like let's start, let's start back in the way beginning. Why would somebody who doesn't necessarily have the credibility to consider themselves? And a quote unquote expert, why would they consider using a podcast as a way to, or what are the benefits of starting a podcast? Maybe we'll start there. Speaker 2: (10:51) Yeah. So first and foremost, there's the perceived benefit that I just kind of mentioned earlier. The PR, the perception is that anyone that has a podcast is a greater authority than somebody that does not have one. Or if you have a book, you're perceived as a greater authority, things like that. So in a lot of ways, I compare podcasting to kind of like writing an ebook was five years ago where everybody had an ebook and that added credibility. Now podcasting is the new ebook, in my opinion. It's like you have to have a podcast to have that credibility. Now, plus if you want to build relationships with high powered people in the industry, having a podcast is one of the best ways to cold outreach to big names in your industry and get them to actually to want to be on your show. So, uh, is this coming Friday we're releasing an episode of Marketing Geeks where we interviewed Ryan Laveck and he's a, he's a pretty big name. I mean he spoken on stages like traffic and conversion is huge. Yeah, he's a big name this he's written, he's the creator of the ask method. He wrote the books, ask and choose. And so we actually have him on the show. We've had Pat Flynn on the show and Lewis, Speaker 1: (11:53) one of my, Speaker 2: (11:54) one of my favorite episodes. If you guys know pat, then you have to go listen to the marketing geeks episode where he's, where he's on there. If you don't know who pat is, you have to go listen to this episode because he is a fantastic affiliate and internet marketer. He's a love's back to the future. He's a super fun guy and uh, he really just kind of keeps it real and keeps it down and dirty in terms of really talking about concepts that people don't understand. You guys did a fantastic job of having pat on the show. What was really cool is I'm, I met pat in person at social media marketing world and one of the reasons that I even got like introduced and brought up to him was because we had one of the social media marketing world reps on our show first. Speaker 2: (12:38) Uh, she happened to be from my exact hometown that I'm from, which was like a cool, uh, icebreaker. And so I found out we actually went to the same high school, different years, but which the same high school. And then when I went to social media marketing world, she came and met me and then she walked me up to Pat Flynn, introduced me, told them about my show a he, he kind of recognized my cover art. You didn't, he had never listened to the show up. But because of that introduction I was able to get him to agree to be on, to be on my podcast. So because of the podcast, that led to an introduction that got me access to Pat Flynn. And then by having him on the show, it's now opened the doors to tons of other guests that want to be on. Because, uh, I have had pamphlet on the show now, and that's probably one of the reasons Ryan Laveck came on the show because he saw that I've had guests like John lead do, most of them had flame. Speaker 2: (13:20) So, um, as you build in, as you attract some of these higher names, uh, you're, you're gonna get tons of people wanting to be on your show. Um, and, and that provides opportunities to either monetize because these are people that might want to buy programs directly from you. The guests themselves might, or their audience might want to do something with it. So if you're, if you're doing this correctly, every time you have a guest on, you shouldn't have a system set up so that they are agreeing to promote your episode and that each and every time somebody comes on, you're borrowing a portion of their audience. And if the show is good enough, some of that a portion is going to stick and they're going to become a fan of your show in a, in a subscriber. And we'll listen. Speaker 1: (13:59) Yeah. You know, it's kind of funny because when I'm out speaking in and on stages, I kind of train on this idea of why is Oprah the most powerful woman in the world? Right? And I ask audiences, Justin, you've been in the audience gives zillion times when I've asked this question, who's the most powerful woman in the world? And Oprah is always in the one or two spot, like hundred percent of the time. And really if you look at her philosophy or her formula, it's exactly what Justin is talking about. It's essentially other people's content, which is your guests plus their reach, which is their audience equals more listeners or more people in your sort of space. So you know, when Justin Interviews Pat Flynn, he's using Pat's content, Pat's reach to bring more listeners to his show, to Justin show, and pat at the same time is doing the same thing. Speaker 1: (14:51) He gets to be leveraging the marketing geeks audience, the marketing geeks content, their reach to bring people over to him. So the listeners that listen to Justin show may not have known who Patflynn was, but once they listened to that episode, they're like, oh my gosh, that dude is just awesome. I'm going to go sign up for his podcast, which is smart passive income. He is over@smartpassiveincome.com. Uh, pat. Awesome. So you really do get to sort of leverage that audience. So Justin, I can, I can hear, um, I can already hear people kind of emailing in and talking about, well, you know, I'm a network marketer or I own a roofing business, our own and massage, uh, you know, a day spa or I own a small landscaping business. Why would little oh me want to have a podcast? Why would a little owe me a need to do things like social proof and have, um, emails written? Like, why would, why would you know Bob from Bob's roofing company consider using a podcast? Speaker 2: (15:54) Excuse me. Um, I think that the main reason is that it doesn't matter how small your niches, what matters is that you're perceived as the expert in the industry. And if, if someone's going to hire a roofer and their review in between the various options of roofers that are out there, the fact that you have a podcast and you are teaching the concept of roofing or you're interviewing some of the top roofers in the industry or your bringing on people that have hired roofers and asking like, what do you look for in a roof? Or things like that. There's so much content that you can both learn about your industry and two people are going to perceive you again in a higher light and they're going to be more likely to hire the guy that runs the show on roofing. Or are they are the, the guy that, um, that teaches the concepts of roofing. Because if you're, if you're a teacher, people assume that means that you are, um, also the best implementer of doing the work. And so again, perception is reality. So as long as people perceive you to be the best, they're going to go after the best or the majority of people will. Speaker 1: (16:52) Yes. That's what I would look at. Yeah. It's kind of funny. There's a phrase that we kind of use in the speaker world and the presenter trainer world kind of behind the scenes and it is very, so it's totally cliche but absolutely accurate and it's can apply to the roofing business even and it's he or she who has the marker, makes the money and essentially it's he or she who's up doing the presentation and writing out and training is going to be the one that makes money because perception is reality. Therefore that person is perceived primarily as the expert. You know why you were explaining the roofing business or why that person would do a podcast? I just thought of of if I were a roofer and I wanted to do a podcast, I would probably interview lots of people in the real estate space because I would interview the investors, the bankers, the uh, the hard money people, the folks that are wholesaling deals out there, the real estate agents that if I'm a local, maybe it's just in my local space, but it me in with those guys and Gals to get my name out there. Speaker 1: (17:53) But the other thing that it does, you know, and just thinking about this, kind of broadening it, if I was a roofer in, you know, Pew Olic Washington, which is my hometown, I was teeny, teeny tiny little thing. Although I live in Los Angeles now, so don't, don't hold it against me, but, um, you know, you could then, if you were Bob in Bob's roofing company, you have a podcast and you wanted to interview a real estate investor in Chicago, well maybe you have a referral agreement with a roofing company in Chicago, so that if any leads come to you from that point of view, you simply pass them off to the people in Chicago and take a cut. That's just like huge leverage. Speaker 2: (18:30) Yeah. What do you give two examples here? Um, one example is Matt broadening. He's a, he's a client of mine. Um, our agency services a lot of his infusionsoft and podcasts needs, and he runs two shows now. So the first show that we developed was called the driven entrepreneur, and it was about, uh, interviewing high achieving entrepreneurs and kind of getting their origin stories in a sense. Uh, but what he realized was that he wanted to get more speaking gigs and he's kind of, uh, exploring, getting back into like corporate speaking and things like that. So He created a second show called speaking of getting booked. And this show is where he's interviewing the bookers. So he's using this as an excuse to get in with the people that are booking speakers and he's interviewing them and asking things like, what are the criteria that you're looking for? How does somebody go about contacting you directly? What would be interesting from a cold email standpoint? Like what would get your attention? Those kinds of questions. And he's building relationships with the bookers through the show because he knows that he wants to speak more and he's going to leverage those relationships for himself while he's also adding value to a ton of other speakers that want to learn the exact same thing. Speaker 1: (19:29) Plus he's playing to the bookers. Egos, right? I mean, on some level, let's just face it, you know, as a speaker, I, I know the audience by which he's trying to talk to, right? And a lot of bookers, um, are ego ego-driven, right? Our job as speakers is to get up there and do our song and dance and make them look like rock stars to their organizations. Right. So the other thing is I, what I really like about that is it would also give the audience a, a, the audience are primarily speakers and other bookers. And so if you are a speaker and you're just getting started and you haven't quite figured out how to get inside of the heads and the minds of those booking agents, then that show would play right into that. And he's kind of going behind the scenes and given everybody inside glimpses of how to help a particular group of business owners in this case, speakers save time and make more money in their business. Yeah. Speaker 2: (20:25) Yeah. And in that same regard, he also runs a speaker training program. So, Speaker 1: (20:29) oh, I'm shocked. Speaker 2: (20:30) The, the listeners of the show are likely to be speakers or want to be speakers, you know, there are aspiring, um, and so they fit right into his customer Avatar. So those, that's one of the groups that he likes to teach because he uses, he teaches NLP, but he teaches how to use NLP from the stage to be a better speaker. So He's leveraging that. Now one other example I wanted to bring is going back to Pat Flynn. Cause we talked about kind of the roofing idea of starting a podcast like that will pat started a podcast and one of the smallest niches you can imagine, he started a podcast on food truck companies. Yup. Um, and, and although he admits that it's got a smaller audience than any of his other shows, it's been one of the more profitable shows for him because he's got a very narrow niche. But these are highly qualified listeners that, um, that he's positioned himself to be an expert in food truck businesses and how to market them. And he's gotten clients off of it, even though it's a small niche audience. So doesn't matter how small it is, there's going to be, I mean, everything has an audience. You just have to be able to know how to communicate and find that audience, um, to, but it can, it can be a big thing. Speaker 1: (21:32) Well, it's kind of funny just going back to, um, Pat's food truck deal, if I remember the story correctly because I've heard him tell this story before, is I believe that it actually started with him writing an Ebook, ironically on how to help market your food truck business. And he was selling lots of those and then he started interviewing food truck owners, um, and businesses that have food trucks come out to their, um, to their location. And that's how he's built this like little cottage industry. I mean, ironically, I, uh, own part of a, a craft beer bar, a beer house up in Seattle, and we have food trucks come as opposed to us having a kitchen. Right? And so I have told several of the food truck guys that we have there about Pat's podcasts on food trucks. So it's a, for something as small and as niche and as narrow as that. Speaker 1: (22:23) Again, if, if you have an audience or you have a set of customers, it's also a way to leverage your customers. So, so Justin, just sticking on that podcasting for a second, it would also seem to me that um, whatever business people are in, whether again, you know, using either network marketing or construction or you know, airbnb properties, you could do a podcast where you're literally just talking to your customers. Yes. Why, you know, what were you looking for? What did you find was the best of the best experience? You know, what was, how can our industry or our profession better serve you as the customer? Right? Speaker 2: (23:03) Yeah, and I, I tend to teach a number of different ways of monetizing podcasts. One of them is the target market client as your guest on the show. So one of them is, is using your target market client or your customer Avatar as the person that your show is going to be interviewing. So you're attracting that person, you're interviewing them while they're on the show. They're likely to learn what it is that you do or you're going to have that a pre interview with them and you can tell them a little bit about what you do. And because again, you've leveraged yourself as the host of this show, the expert in the industry, if there's a need for it or when there's a need for it later on, they're likely to come back to you to hire you because again, you are the perceived expert and likely the real expert. Speaker 1: (23:43) Yeah. So let's have a let's about that for, let's talk about that, that strategy for a second. Um, I have been on podcasts where I walked into being a guest on somebody's show where they were absolutely targeting me as their ideal client, but they were using their podcasts to leverage me as a guest on the show. And it has to be done with the, the art of conversation because it can be very douchebaggery if you will. Um, when it comes off as you're just like, Hey, I just want you on my show. So off the air, I can tell you about how amazing I am and you can hire our stuff, right? You have to be a little bit, Speaker 2: (24:24) I don't know. Yeah, I agree. But having the podcast is a great way to open those conversations though because absolutely if you're going to, if you're going to do like the spammy type of messages on like Linkedin or Facebook where you're messaging like a thousand people at a time and you're going to your, and I'm talking about cold, where you don't know the person, you're just cold messaging looking for sales. Well, leveraging, introducing yourself and saying you have a podcast and you're looking for guests is a lot softer of an intro and more enticing than just saying you want to get somebody on the phone call because you are going to offer a free strategy session where you're gonna offer something like that because people know that being on a podcast has value to them and it's kind of an exchange of value. So, um, so yes it can, it needs to be done with a certain amount of tact. I would agree with that. But it also can be very effective because it's a great way of opening those conversations. If you're great at sales, it's a good strategy. Speaker 1: (25:14) Yeah, and I, and I think, I know you and I talked a little bit about this, a little bit about this off the air before we came on board or came on the air. But um, I think when you do that, the reality is that as a podcast store, right, the guy or Gal doing the interview, it's our job to make our guests look so much like a rockstar that that guests will actually go out and share that episode with their network because they want to make, they want to feel proud of like, oh my gosh, I was just interviewed on expand the business. Like this is awesome. If I got on here and, and Justin and I just kept trying to sell myself and you know, I kind of, you know, I, I wasn't giving you time to talk and I was kind of, you know, being confrontational and kind of just a d bag. Then the reality is you wouldn't share this with your, with your audience anyways. And the only real play I would have is the optimization of your name in the show notes or blog posts or whatever. Speaker 2: (26:13) Which, which I think is why if you're going to take this model on, you're not, you're not pitching them on the show, you're pitching them before or after the show. It's not a, I mean, the show needs to be about adding value. For the most part, it should be free value. Andy. I mean, the show is not a webinar. You're not, you're not taking the model on where every episode you're gonna have the a $1,000 paid off or at the end of every episode because that's a, it's not going to build an audience. It might get a few sales down the line. It may or may not, but it's not going to build an audience because don't want to be sold all the time. They want it. They want value. They want free value. A lot of our listeners, um, you know, they, they tell us that they're, they're looking, I mean, they basically use us as like an education resource. They're listening to marketing Geeks to learn marketing. Um, they're not, you know, they're not looking necessarily to even hire us. They want, they want to learn marketing and we're bringing on high end guests. We're discussing high end concepts and they listen to us because of that. So, um, Speaker 1: (27:09) yeah. And, and I also think what you guys do a great job of, and I think as a podcast or, or somebody that's doing this, um, as a medium to get word out or get message out, you know, content is king. Content is coaching, content is queen. Content is kind of the basis that levels the playing field between all of the entrepreneurs. But so few people will position themselves as an expert or position themselves as somebody that has the ability to interview somebody and make them look like a rock star. Then I think it helps be, it just stops people in their tracks. And so one of the things that I think a podcast can do is create that know, like, and trust factor. You know, I would make an assumption that the more episodes you guys do of marketing Geeks, the more customers and clients you're going to have for um, Jay Mac because you will have taken the time to get rid of the scary right. You've made marketing a little bit more well known. You've talked about some acronyms, you've talked about some concepts so that when somebody is ready to hire a marketing agency or bring on a copywriter or bring on somebody knowing that they need automation, your podcast really allows you to have somebody get to know you, like you, trust you and know your sensibility, know your jokes. Um, you know how your personality is, uh, right from the podcast. Speaker 2: (28:34) It's true. I got an email actually today from somebody who listened to the show. It says like, I feel like I know you. And it's just kind of funny because if somebody I've never met, I don't even know who they are other than their name in the email, but it's just a, it's true because people listen in all kinds of ways. Like I've had people tell me, they listen well, they go jogging or they go walking like you just said too. Or they, um, you know, they're, they're, they're listening in their cars on the way to work, like things like that. So it's funny how people, it builds like this, a relationship where they feel like they know you personally. And like you said, no. Like, and trust is huge, uh, influential factor in who you're going to hire for business. So a, when I can create that up, well, I mean, and it's, it's real. So I mean, they're getting to know the personality behind the name. Uh, but when I can, when I could create that, it, it, um, it definitely opens up the, the, the bigger likelihood that they're gonna want to work with somebody that they, again, they know, like, and trust. Speaker 1: (29:22) Yeah. And the other thing that it does, and, and talk to me a little bit about this, and maybe I call it something differently than what you would call it, but you know, one of the things when I was was putting the show together, I knew that we were going to be doing lots of stage swabs or a cast swaps where I do a guest spot on your show. You come to a guest spot on my show. Both people win because we're taking different, uh, taking different roles inside the episode. You know, I have a friend, Rochelle Shaw, who's going to be an upcoming guest and you know, honestly I love her shell. I've known her for a years and years and years, but she was kind of out of sight, out of mind, not from it for any other reason that we've just been really busy. And she asked me to be on her digital summit. And in that conversation I, that's when I said, oh my gosh, you have to be a guest on, on our show as well. So talk to me a little bit about the ability to leverage the platform in a stage swap scenario. Speaker 2: (30:21) Yeah, so I think it starts, I mean, so when we launched our show, I'm going to just give a little bit of background here. We actually didn't even bring a guest on for almost 10 months. Our first, uh, our first like 10 months of episodes where maybe there was like one or two exceptions to this. They were me and Andrea is my cohost giving teaching concepts. We just covered concepts. And then as we moved into year two, we started getting a ton of people reaching out to the show, inquiring about being a guest. And, um, and they were just, I mean, cause we were in the show notes of every episode or on the show, we would mention our email address on where to, where to request to either be a guest or suggested guests on the show. And over time, that's grown now to the point where we're getting like 10 to 20 emails a week of people that want to be on the show. Speaker 2: (31:04) We're turning people down now because we have to, uh, we're booked out through October right now with guests. Uh, but one of the things that I've learned over time and working with, cause I, I manage a map. Ronnie's Podcast, I'm not managing your podcasts. One of the things I've learned is the way that you, you book these people really, really matters. So we've created a form and we're using a software called JotForm, which is a, a, they have a free version and a paid version. I highly suggest checking it out, John. That's J. O. T. J. O. T. F. O. R. M. It's a very great software for creating a, an interactive form. It can integrate with like infusion soft or different email marketing platforms. Um, but what we do is we started asking questions like, would you a, do you have a podcast? Would you be willing to do a stage like a, a podcast swap? Speaker 2: (31:49) If we have you on our show, would you be open to having us on your show? Those kinds of questions. Uh, how big your social media following, are you willing to promote the show? So we're actually, we're, we're preframing the episode so that they understand that, yeah, there is an exchange here. Um, and I mean depending on, we might go a little softer on some of the bigger names like we might, you know, but if it's people that were kind of learning about, because they reached out to us and, and they don't necessarily have like a gigantic following, then we want to, we want to make it so that there is a bit of an exchange of values that we can appear on their show, they can appear on our show or they could do some sort of alternative promotion. We're, we're, we're both getting value from each other and I think that comes with preframing the relationship and having a good, um, a good forum for people with questions to fill out and information like that really, really helps the process. Speaker 1: (32:36) Yeah. So you, you brought us something in that and you just whizzed past it. So I want to like [inaudible] and that was my, my fake, um, chief for sound effects, former to VCR. Um, you want to know how big their social media following is. Yeah. So let's talk, let's talk about that from a kind of a build the tribe sort of perspective. You know, anybody that's been around this show certainly hear it expand the business or I've seen me speak or talk, you know, I'm all about building your tribe, not social media following. I mean at this point are you guys gonna really consider having a guest on the show that has like 124 Facebook followers. They hate Instagram, they got nine, they have nine Pinterest followers and they don't have a youtube channel and they've got 12 connections on linkedin. Speaker 2: (33:27) Not unless there's some kind of a celebrity that I've heard of through television or some legacy media and they just haven't adopted social media. So it's very unlikely. Speaker 1: (33:35) Yeah. And that's because as, um, you're trying to grow, you want to be able to leverage, one of the reasons why you would do a podcast, it seems to me, is to leverage into your guests network. So I just think it's really important that all business owners build that social media following or build that meetup following or build that linkedin or whatever, wherever your customers are following. Yeah. Speaker 2: (34:00) Yes. And ideally we also want to try to vet them a little bit. If we, if, if we could find the time, I mean sometimes we get so many requests that we don't have a ton of time to vet everybody, but we want to also make sure that they're getting a good engagement on their social media because it's easy to get 5,000 friends on Facebook. We're a ton of linkedin followers. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're getting a ton of engagement on the platforms. So we also want to look at like, okay, what's their, how are they perceived in the marketplace? How are, what kind of engagement did they get on social media? Those kind of metrics are also important to look at because again, it's a you, I mean, people buy fake followers still. It's still a thing you can, it used to be on fiber. You could go buy fake followers. I think they finally, um, enforced against, Speaker 1: (34:38) well yeah, well not only that fiber and forced that, but like I used to, I have a Amazon business and you used to be able to go buy reviews and by stuff like that and Facebook, I know Facebook did it. I know Twitter did it. I know Amazon did it where they started putting up fake listings, seeing who was going to buy them and then they would basically go close those accounts down. So just kind of, again, that's not really the way I would do. I W I would expand, uh, expand the business. But um, Speaker 1: (35:09) so let's, let's stay on social media. Let's stay on social media for just a minute. If somebody doesn't have a podcast, right, they, but they know they want and, or need more exposure to potential customers, potential distributors, potential vendors, whatever they want to get in front of what, what, give me a couple of things that they could do right now if they were trying to get on your show. The Marketing Geeks, like, I'll give you an example. One of the things that when I've, when I have identified a podcast that I want to be on, um, I am very strategic in that, uh, about a month before I asked to be on the show or go fill out the form that you have, I'm going to promote that podcast on my Facebook page. I'm going to tag the host in there. I'm going to go talk about how awesome their episodes are. I'm going to go actually listen to several of the episodes. So I know how the banter is that those guys or gals have on their show. So when I come to the table and fill out that form, I kind of am right there on par. I already know what you're really looking for. What kinds of things can people do? Speaker 2: (36:19) Well, I, I, it's funny that um, we had a guest on that was a special, um, he's, his specialty was called email marketing and, and he, uh, he used a strategy on us to get our show, but he talked about it too. How when you reach out to a show you want to be on, you should always at least reference a past episode. Um, make points that you actually listened to the show. Uh, give some feedback about, you know, things like that. And if you, if you could do that, even if the rest of the message is like a template, like a cut and paste template and at least personalizes it to the point that it's like, this isn't just another like fully cut and paste template that we get all the time. This is somebody who actually took the time to recognize an episode that they appreciated. Speaker 2: (36:57) They took the time to do this and, and it does stand out more. I can tell you that, um, if the first line of the email is like, or the same thing goes on like Linkedin, if I get a private message, if the first line of that private message is, feels generic to me, I'll just, I won't even read the rest. I'll just ignore it. It just goes straight into the spam box. So, um, so by recognizing that, that's a big thing. I know think that people can do, and this is a, there's a huge industry growing of these podcasts, um, what's called like a guest promoters. So they, they're like PR companies basically that are the, you, you hire them and then they have built out relationships with a ton of different podcasts and they'll get you on a ton of different shows. So that's, that's a big industry. That's like all of a sudden developing. Um, I see ads on Facebook a lot. Speaker 1: (37:41) I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm part of that, I'm on both sides of the equation. So I have a listing, there's a, I wish I knew it off the top of my head, but it's, uh, it's an email that goes out that essentially is set to, they play matchmaker essentially. Yeah. If they've got a list of podcasters and a list of guests and they send the guest to the podcasters and the podcast or to the guests and sit somewhere right down in the center. And what's great about that is it gives you exposure to people and interesting people that might be good customers or might be good guests. You wouldn't, you or I may not have access to or not even know exist. Speaker 2: (38:15) Yeah. And that, could you give an example? We had a, we had one of those companies contact us with a list of about 10 potential guests. And what really stood out stood out about that email is like, two of them were like super well or pretty well known names and big names and the rest of them I'd never heard of. So they, but they, they understand that you have to at least they have to at least provide a few of those big names to kind of get my attention. And then it's more likely I'm going to take on these other people that are probably just paid clients that are a, you know, you know, they probably don't have huge followings. Um, but it's, that's a way that they're, I think they're leveraging that, that system. Like, for example, uh, they, one of the guesses is Dan Locke, who I actually wasn't that familiar with him, but I, and I've gone on to find out that he has millions of followers and things like that and he's going to be on our show later this month. And, um, and it, he was introduced to us by one of those companies along with another list of about eight other names. And many of those other names I hadn't heard of, but that, you know, after reading the descriptions, a lot of them were, um, intriguing enough and we're bringing on several of them on the show. Speaker 1: (39:11) Well, because, because that company is leveraging the credibility of Dan's name and, and some of the other bigger names to have their lesser known names put in front of you. Right. And if you're just starting not a podcast, if you're just starting out a podcast, maybe the bigger names are going to scare you and freak you out. So you want to do some of the lesser known names to get your chops and get your practice in, um, on really kind of how, how on how all that works. Um, I know you're doing a Webinar on podcasting. Talk to me a little bit about why w on the podcast thing. You know, I know that it is podcast mastery course.com and it's, it's really to help people kind of get started down this podcast thing. I can tell you just from a guy who has done this for years, that what stops people is they're like, oh my gosh, I'm so freaked out. I got to get a studio system and I got to get microphones and I don't know how to edit it and I don't know how to come up with the music and I don't know where to post it. All that jazz. Is that kind of what this course is going to encompass? Speaker 2: (40:15) Yes, it will in a lot of respects. Um, I wanted to go to course that's, it's simple. So it's like how you can create a podcast even if you don't know a ton about technology. Um, so even if you're, yeah, even if you're not a Wiz at tech, but you want to create a show I and, and you don't even, um, and I'm going to give you a couple of different examples of how you could do it with a limited budget to get started in the beginning. And you can, you know, upgrade as your show improves. That's when you kind of make the upgrades. So like for example, like which hosting platform are you gonna use? There's free hosting platforms out there that a lot of people don't know about. One of them is anchor.fm, um, which actually got purchased by Spotify recently and is a, it's actually a very good hosting platform now. Speaker 2: (40:56) They're, one of the fears that a lot of people have with anything that's free is that you don't necessarily have as much control over your own show as if you're paying somebody else to, to host a show. So that's a fear that some people have. So some people don't want to take that risk. And so there's options like pod bean or there's options like Lipson or this options like a blueberry or what is it called? Blue, I think it's blueberry. Uh, VLU, B, r, r. Y. And uh, so there's all these different hosting platforms out there and depending on what your needs are, depending on, you know, where you, where you're at, you're gonna find you're gonna, you're gonna find that your needs very, or their needs differ. Plus, I'm, some of the podcast platforms are better at hooking you up with advertisers. So if your model that you want to pursue is monetization through advertising, actually anchored on FM is one of the best platforms that I've found that actually hooks you up with advertisers, um, pretty quickly and pretty easily. Speaker 2: (41:49) So if you could, if you're able to build a, an audience with a lot of listeners, that's a good platform to connect with advertisers. Um, a platform like pod Lipson, you have to reach a certain threshold before they'll even consider you to be added to their advertising platform. You have to have a, I've been, I think it's like 100,000 downloads before they even look at you. So it really depends on where you're at. And we kind of go, we're going to go over all the different things like your hosting. Um, you know, what's a microphone that you can get away with on a budget versus what's a microphone if you want to, if you want to have like the highest of end show, what's the best microphone to get? What um, how do I get my cover art created? How do I create the introductory theme, music, things like that. Speaker 2: (42:29) And like where do I find good royalty free music? So a lot of that stuff we're going to cover and give you the foundations. Um, and then beyond that we're going to talk about the strategies. So if you already have a podcast, it's going to be value as well because we're going to, we're going to share like things like how do you attract the best guests? If, if I want to, um, do the advertising method, how do I find advertisers, even if I'm on Lipson, I don't have that many downloads cause there are alternative advertiser platforms that we could, we'll talk a little bit about and how you can get your podcast signed up for them and then they can connect you with a potential advertisers. So our show has been monetized via anchor and it's been monetized via a platform like advertise cast. So we've had, we've had advertisers come from multiple different sources. Speaker 1: (43:12) Awesome. And you know, we, uh, here at expand the business, we are, we've chosen strategically not to necessarily do outside sponsors and advertisers. Quite frankly, you guys, it's only because I'm a control freak. I want to control the message that the audience is actually hearing. So for me, I'm just super strict in what I would ever promote and the guests I would ever promote. So the way that we will probably do it is we will eventually get to a point where to be a guest on the show is gonna mean that you quote sponsor an episode, right? So let's just throw out a number of thousand dollars to sponsor an episode, but that will give you your episode, but then you will be talked about on three or four or five episodes outside. So it's really kind of leveraging an entire entire communities. Speaker 2: (44:00) And that's a different model of advertising too, is that you control the contract. So you either, you either hire a company like that's gonna that's gonna pay you on what's called a CPM basis, which is cost per 1000 impressions or listens to your show or you control the contract and you, you sell a, a preset deal where you're going to provide so many episodes. Um, I know of a company that made a big contract with a major bank and they, uh, they're getting, I think it's like $10,000 a month, but they also agree to have one of their high end bank representatives as a guest on the show every month if they choose to use it. Um, and they are the sole sponsor of the podcast for the period of time, as long as that contract last. And, uh, but they, they privately negotiated that deal completely without using any of the advertising platforms that are out there. So that's another way of monetizing and it's actually probably more profitable that way until you start reaching those, you know, 10,000, 100,000 listeners per episode, then the standard advertising would, Speaker 1: (44:58) yeah. And, and I want to move off podcasting, but I was just thinking one more way that you could, um, use your podcast if you're just getting started is to, um, seal the deal if you will. And let me give you an example. You know, uh, Justin's show marketing geeks is all about, um, you know, marketing and what's working now and they really kind of geek out a little bit on technical stuff and all that kind of jazz. Well, let's say that there was a potential customer that was looking at hiring j Mac media and Bob's consulting firm and all things being held constant. Justin walks in and says, well, you know, we actually have the marketing used podcast. Once we, once we start working, I'd love to build a case study out of what we're doing for your organization and have you a guest on our show, it'll definitely get you some exposure into your marketplace. Yeah, he's just leveraged and sealed the deal. I'm over Bob's consulting hut that doesn't, uh, that doesn't have that, that reach to that audience. Speaker 2: (45:56) Right? It's a big value add. So even if you're selling like a mastermind program or something like that, it's a, it's a big value add that, you know, if you become a part of my high end mastermind program, you're going to get a guaranteed guest spot on my show. Something like that. And you know, our show is, we, our average is 2000 listeners in the first 30 days of a release. So that's a pretty decent audience. And so there you're going to get a pretty good exposure by appearing on our show, uh, within this first 30 days and it'll continue to grow over time. Um, but our average within the first 30 days is 2000 listeners. So it's a, it's a very, it's a very good value add. You're getting a very big stage. You'd spend thousands of dollars to get on a seminar stage, um, with a, a fraction of that audience. Um, you know, for her. Speaker 1: (46:38) Yeah. Oh, trust me, I, I know, I, I totally get it. So Justin, I know, uh, that I introduced you into an organization called banner season and banner season. For those of you who don't know, banner season is the premiere, um, site where you can customize and personalize literally one off promotional products and have them send to your customers or clients or friends and family if you want. So you can do things like customize one water bottle or one coffee mug or one box of brownies, right? And Justin, I know that the two things that I know you've brought into banner season is number one, you've done a podcast for banner season. Um, and too, they have engaged you in writing some of their emails, their communications with their new customers, they're independent referral partners. Um, so on and so forth. Talk to me a little bit about why that was an interesting project that you would take on. I mean, I know that at this point you get to sort of cherry pick the projects you work on. Why would, why was banner season something that you would kind of go all in on in terms of, um, creating an entire podcast for them as well as doing all their email sequencing and automations? Speaker 2: (47:58) Well, I mean it starts with a concept in marketing called lifetime customer value that I'm a big believer in. And what that really means is that there's certain ways that you can make money in your business. You can either sell new products, you could sell a, you could sell to cold traffic, meaning these are people that you've never heard of. You can sell to your past customers, which are people that bought from you, but they haven't bought from you in awhile. Or You could sell your current customers and one of the easiest audiences to sell to you is your current customers, but only if you've been developing a relationship with them and adding value throughout. So what banners season does, which I love, is that they, they, their business, which is not necessarily unique in that there's other companies that offer similar items, but what they do is they tailor to business. Speaker 2: (48:41) So they're, they're built for businesses that want to run their campaigns automated through like CRMs, like infusion soft or um, or ontraport or you know, big CRMs like salesforce, even, um, where you can actually, you treat like direct mail, like it's an email marketing automation campaign. So we're, we're setting up like cards that go out or gifts that go out, like they're fully automated systems because we know that adding value to our clients is going to add to our bottom line over time. Um, whether, you know, maybe not for everybody, but the clients that do buy are going to pay for the campaigns that I put out there because we're developing, you know, not only are we developing, um, stronger relationships that we're developing raving fans and what our raving fans more likely to do, but they're more likely to send you referrals because if they love you, they're going to tell their friends about you. Speaker 2: (49:27) And if they don't, they're not going to do that. So, you know, this is an awesome tool for creating, creating like raving fans that want to promote you. And so that's, I mean, I think that's what attracted me to banner season the most and now it's, you know, it's a tool that I can apply to my podcast. So we have a guest on my questionnaire now asked for the guest's mailing address in advance. That's something we added. Um, the jot form integrates with infusion soft. So I have that automatically going into my platform. Um, and I, it can trigger a, all I have to do is apply a tag and I can trigger a guest campaign. So that card in a mug goes out to the guest automatically to, to add value to them. Because I know that by doing that, they're going to be more likely to promote the show. Speaker 2: (50:09) They're gonna feel better about their appearance. I mean, it's, it's gonna, it's gonna help build my reputation in the industry. It's only, it's only doing good things. Uh, same thing goes for fiber. If I, if I have a client on fiber, uh, and I want, I mean, a lot of, there's a lot of money and engaging your old clients on a freelancing platform and you don't, if you're not reaching out to them or you're not capturing a contact information, then they're probably gonna forget about you over time unless you do some kind of like a incredible, incredible job. But even if you do that, they might forget about you because you didn't take the time to really build the relationship with them and do that. So this is like an automation tool for creating relationships. And I, that's what attracted me to it. So I, I think intuitively I knew like how to kind of write sales copy for it. And um, and so I wanted, I wanted it to be a part of this because I really believe in the, in the platform of the product. Speaker 1: (50:57) Well, what's really cool and what you really bring to the table and you know, um, as a, as a guy kind of really in the thick of it with, with banner season, one of the reasons why, you know, I made such a pitch to bring you kind of in into the fold, was that as marketers, our job really is to communicate with our potential customers and our customers and influencers in a multitude of ways where they may hear the message. So, you know, there's text marketing, there's search engine marketing, there's social media marketing, there's email marketing, there's podcasting as a way of marketing. And being able to send out a customized personalized gift, uh, to somebody is another way to reach out and touch them. So it's, it kind of just helped broad, uh, uh, fill out a broad spectrum of being able to communicate with potential customers. Speaker 1: (51:53) And even though, you know, someone like my mom can use banner season to send out, uh, a water ball here or there were Christmas cards, Christmas cards, right? Or holiday cards, you know, you've hit the button one time and send it out to everybody and it's completely personalized and customized, customizable. Um, it's such a, it's such a great tool, like you said, an in, in thank you gifts, you know, we work with a lot of, I work a lot with people in the real estate profession and one of the things that they will all tell you is like, oh my gosh, the referrals, our bread and butter of our business. And if we lose the referrals, um, we're kind of screwed. Yeah. Right. So something like this gives us one more prong to touch those, to touch those potential customers. Speaker 2: (52:35) And I think of like, I'm Ryan dice, a digital marketer has that famous quote that he or she, who's willing to spend the most to acquire a customer will always win in terms of advertising. Well, I would say the same thing applies to he or she who is spending, willing to spend the most to keep a client is always going to win as well. Yeah, you're, you're actually, you're, you're, you're making them feel special because not many people are going to go out there and spend $10 on their clients and give them a gift even though it's not a, it's not a big deal, but they're not going to do it because they just want to put that money in their pocket and they're not thinking that they're not seeing a longterm view. They're looking at short term profits, not a long term play. Speaker 1: (53:12) Yeah. I mean take banner season again, just for an example, if you guys go to expand the business.com, um, I'm going to entice you to give me her email address, right? And I'm going to do something for you that I think is, is sufficiently valuable for you to give me your exchange of your, uh, of your email. Right? So at this point, I've got a 30 minute download on how to generate more referrals now. Right? Well, if you go to expand the business.com, put your email address in there. You get get more referrals now as a, as a gift. I say on there, Hey, give me your address. I want to actually send you a surprise in the mail you do that, it triggers, it triggers about a $10 product coming out of banners season. You're going to get a thank you card and a, a treat. Speaker 1: (53:56) I'll leave it at that. Um, if you want to check that out, you can go to expand the business.com and see for yourself. Um, and you know that investment is 10 bucks. About 80% of people that opt in to expand the business.com leave me their address. So about 80% of those people, I'm already investing 10 bucks in without them ever being a customer. Number one, about 50% of those people will take that gift and that card and repost it on social media going, oh my gosh, I got that today. Which gives me another, another place to, to, to be in front of that potential customer. But it also sets up so much goodwill that when I send a second email that says, hey, go check out this particular affiliate product, or go check out this Facebook group, there's a higher likelihood that that's going to be sticky because I took the first step investing in those customers, right? Yeah, Speaker 2: (54:49) absolutely. Yeah. You've built, you've built a relationships with rapport or you, you know, you've invested in rapport with the, with a, with a prospect. So yes, there's, I mean there's a big difference between, I'm somebody that that already provided a $10 gift in advance and there's a, one of the principals in the book influence that I mentioned the beginning of the show is the, is the principle of reciprocity. And so if you give somebody a gift like in this, this is the concept that is behind every online funnel where you have this exchange of value. You're getting an Ebook, you're getting a pdf, you're getting a free recording, something like that in exchange for an email address. The reason that's more successful is because of this law of reciprocity that people feel indebted if you give them something and they're, they're more likely to want to do something in return. So you're leveraging one of the principles of influence there. Speaker 1: (55:39) Absolutely. And influence and leveraging of influence is so massive. Um, Justin, I know we've got just a few minutes left. I wanted to touch on another topic. Um, you know, I know, um, with, with Matt, you, you are part of his mastermind and you kind of helped manage and run of that. You, you are now helping us with our mastermind, a pro

Joining host James Dickson on this week’s Event Industry News podcast is Nick Gold, director of Speakers Corner. For many years, the company has been a leading supplier of event hosts and speakers, with a vast portfolio of clients. The company’s roster includes celebrity names, but also a vast list of specialised speakers that can be booked for sector-specific events.  However, during the podcast Nick explains why having a speaker that comes from the same background as the audience is not always the best option, and how some of his company’s most memorable bookings have come from the opposing scenario. 

Michael talks with #UniteTheRight with scheduled speaker James Allsup. Plus, Josh Yasmeh, Aaron Bandler, and Amanda Presitigiacomo join the Panel of Deplorables to discuss Kim Jong Un backing down, Iceland's Down Syndrome genocide, and the most liked tweet in history.

Lost in Translation, Right? Speaker; Pastor Paul F. Knight

Jamie Brooks, U.S. campaign manager for Think Beyond the Pump discusses pending legislation in San Francisco, Berkeley and Santa Monica that would require gasoline pumps to post a 'climate risk' disclosure label showing hidden costs of fossil fuels.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Nothing to the madness is next witness mean to method to the madness, Speaker 2:a weekly public affairs program here on k a l x Berkeley featuring bay area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer. And today I'm talking to Jamie Brooks, B u s based campaign manager for the think beyond the pump campaign. [00:00:30] Welcome to the program. Oh, thank you very much. First of all, what is beyond the pump? Speaker 3:Well, beyond the pump were a, a campaign happening here in, uh, the bay area, uh, that is seeking legislation to require a climate change information label or if you want to call it a warning label, be posted on each gas pump. We have a drafted legislation here in San Francisco and we think San Francisco, we'll be the first city in the nation to vote this fall [00:01:00] where we don't have a hearing dates yet. Uh, but we're, we're anticipating that a San Francisco will be the first, uh, but Berkeley and Santa Monica and southern California also have legislation to require, uh, climate change. So they're all kind of waiting on San Francisco to move. Um, it's probably important to point out too that, um, there is a sister campaign happening in Canada. Uh, it's called our horizon that has already passed the legislation into [00:01:30] law and British Columbia. So a small city North Vancouver has passed into law, so we should see climate change, warning labels, information labels being posted. Speaker 2:So who started this whole thing? Was it this horizons group in Kansas? Speaker 3:So it was, we simultaneously came up with the idea on beknownst to each other. Our horizon, we just discovered each other about probably a six months into our campaign, about three years ago. And uh, Speaker 2:wow. You've been at three years at [inaudible]. Speaker 3:Yeah, it takes a little bit if [00:02:00] you want to do legislation takes a long time, you have to be a little bit obsessive to, uh, to do something like this. And there's lots of legal, Speaker 2:is it the same in Canada because Canada Speaker 3:First Amendment laws are a little less constricting as American ones. Uh, so they have been able to pass it into law and British Columbia. Speaker 2:Does that mean it's gonna follow suit across the provinces or is there a movement to do that? Speaker 3:It'll be similar, um, to the United States. It'll pass and in [00:02:30] one city and then of the other cities within that province will take notice and it's happening kind of sporadically throughout Canada. Speaker 2:Let's take a listen to Toronto based lawyer, Robert Shirkey. Speaker 4:Our horizon is a national not for profit organization that is addressing the issue of climate change in a simple yet globally unprecedented way. And I left my job practicing law to do this because climate change is the greatest challenge of our, it is not [00:03:00] oil companies. It is not the tar sands, it, it's not pipelines just causing climate change. It's us, it's humanity. We all share responsibility for this issue. If we can shape market demand, if we can help people to connect the dots, I think that that's a way that we can transform and act on climate change. My organization is working to put climate change warning labels on gas pump nozzles similar to those we see on tobacco packages because it's [00:03:30] not until we're made to face the reality of what we're up against. It's not until we're made to feel responsible for this that we will then be able to move forward in meaningful ways. Speaker 4:What this idea does is it takes those far away consequences be the extinction of species, drought and famine or ocean acidification and through the use of image and text brings it into the here and now. It helps to mitigate the effect of the current moment bias and takes a problem of no feedback and builds feedback. [00:04:00] The placement of the warning label on the gas pump nozzle takes a problem of diffuse origins and quite literally it locates responsibility right in the palm of your hand. If we burn fossil fuels, we contribute to climate change. Climate Change Causes Arise in sea level, that then necessitates the spending of billions of dollars to upgrade our coastal infrastructure. Economists know that those costs can and should be reflected in the price of the product that's [00:04:30] actually causing the harm. And internalizing that cost through something like a carbon tax, we can show the true price of this product to the marketplace. Speaker 4:This idea, this market signal can contribute to an important cultural shift. This could be an important moral input that helps to transform markets. So we may worry about climate change, tar sands, pipelines and so on, but we never question the simple act of pumping gas. There is a complete disconnect. [00:05:00] What this does is it forces the question, if not this, then what? It disrupts the narrative and make space for a new story to be told. Businesses and governments will respond to this shift in demand. We just need to be made to want those alternatives. And this idea can be a nudge in that direction. Speaker 3:Well, let's talk about what do the labels look like in Canada and what do they look like here? Is there a difference? Well, the Canadian versions, we haven't seen them, but they're [00:05:30] s they're short of falling. The lines of being friendly, showing ways people can reduce gas consumption and also kind of a dichotomous of message want. It's kind of friendly, but it's like gasoline contributes to climate change. Uh, so they're trying to go down this middle of the road. Are they visually graphically depicting that have climate? Some of the labels, if you look at our horizon have images of dead animals from drought [00:06:00] in Africa and so they are going, ah, we don't know for sure if they're going to go down this really graphic like the cigarette labels that you're seeing, um, with people with whole tracheotomies and stuff like that. Is there any scientific literature about the effectiveness of something that is a little scarier versus something that's a little nicer? Speaker 3:Yeah, there is the, unfortunately it's, it's a little uncomfortability with this, but the research shows that tobacco labels that have graphic images are more effective [00:06:30] than just text labels only. I think the main way to look at the labels is not that they in and of themselves will change behavior in an instant, but more in how they change, how we perceive the normalization around our, in this case, using fossil fuel. And so that's their, Carmen can look at, will I even notice it? I mean, how are we going to notice that law? You may not notice the labels at first. You know, we're [00:07:00] making a few assumptions. The labels will be as visible as possible with all the competing advertising on a gas pump. So our proposal, I think if you want me to describe what are labels, they'll have a graphic image. W it's called, we're calling it, it's a little cartoon car bug with a, with a puff of CO2. Speaker 3:So they graphically communicate a friendly image of a car. But the reality of the CO2 that comes out of our vehicles and t cloud is black, [00:07:30] which in this case it is, but the colors might change depending on what happens legally. And then what we're doing underneath in terms of texts and communication as we're communicating EPA statutes. So if you look up section two oh two A, this is specifically deals with emissions that come from transportation, from cars and trucks, uh, from the gasoline that we consume. Uh, it, it shows, you know, basically already existing [00:08:00] findings on the fact that petroleum-based transportation fuels contribute to climate change and therefore have an impact on human health and welfare. So we're not making anything up here. We're just disclosing the information of already existing statute. Uh, it's particularly in section two oh two a this is an interesting area because you and I both know that there's a real challenge in getting people to react to something that they can't see. Speaker 3:Right. That's not immediate to them. [00:08:30] Exactly. Right. How can we make a paradigm shift that's, that's kind of the, the main focus of this campaign. So we're not really, as I said, we don't expect people to see the labels and then go, oh, I'm going to push my car to work. I won't start my engine. Although from a greenhouse gas perspective, that would be the best thing to do. We realized that's a ridiculous Nosha we're, we're primarily interested in how the labels will change perceptions, attitudes, [00:09:00] beliefs, the social context, the social license around using fossil fuel in our society and calling that into question over the longterm. So after someone views a label for the first time. So let's say you, let's say you don't see the labels, you're not a person that noticed them, but you run into your friend at work who does notice them and says, Hey, have you seen those silly labels on the gas pumps? Speaker 3:They're talking about climate change. So [00:09:30] the first thing that that might do is that it'll elicit a conversation that wouldn't have happened. One of the functions around changing the social norms around using fossil fuel is to kind of stimulate a conversation about the problem of climate change. The problem of using petroleum based fuels, however inconvenient or how it may be even elicits the sense of incredulity. This is a reality. Um, and we're not having that conversation. So part [00:10:00] of the way to look at these labels is not that they will necessarily make us stop using our cars right now, but over the longterm as cigarette labels, did they change the social context in order that there was a policy response? It's sort of a timeline. If you think about the first labels came out in 1965 for cigarettes and before the labels there was a general scientific [00:10:30] consensus that smoking caused FCM on cancer and all these ill health effects. Speaker 3:But socially, uh, smoking was normal. Uh, we smoked everywhere. And you know, I remember as a child, smoking was in the schools in elementary, the teachers would smoke in the teachers' lounge and the smoke would waft out into the halls. And now that would be, oh, that'd be EFL pot. That would be a major social football. But what happened with smoking labels is they went into effect in 1965 and that initial government [00:11:00] signal, that official focus on the health effects of smoking and the whole legal aspect of putting the labels on the, on the cigarette packs, that signal changed the way we perceive the risks of cigarette smoking. So no longer was it considered normal that we started calling into question. It's normalcy. It started being de-normalized. And so as a response, a few years later, uh, taxes went up on cigarettes. So in 1969, [00:11:30] cigarettes had a price increase in taxes. Speaker 3:And if you remember in 1971, the Marlboro man went off television. It wasn't necessarily that the labels elicited a behavior change in a direct sense that it's arguable that the tax had a larger increase impact on behavior. That also, you know, losing the, the tobacco company's ability to advertise on, on television also had an impact on behavior. Really, we're addressing [00:12:00] a complex issue here with transportation alone. You're dealing with, you know, land use, you're dealing with technologies, you know, what's available technologically to us. We're dealing with behaviors, we're dealing with transportation, lifestyle. And there's a tendency to think of that. We're going to fix the problem of transportation emissions with a silver bullet. And some of our, our advisors, we have one dance Sperling at UC Davis. Uh, we say, you know, [00:12:30] we're going to have this terrific technology that's going to save us, right? And he kind of smiled at us and he said, future transportation, you know, a low carbon, very low carbon. Speaker 3:The types that we need to really address the problem is going to be a mixture of things. It's not going to be a monoculture that we see today. It'd be quite different. You know, we'll have fuel cell vehicles, we'll have electric vehicles running on cleaner and cleaner and energy grid. Uh, but that won't be just it. Those, those technologies will always have limitations in comparison to [00:13:00] what we're currently used to. You know, transit systems will, will improve in the land use changes that will really require to get better transit systems in place will require a changes of social and political will that we have to change the social license around using fossil fuel and in order to achieve these objectives, these are big changes and will require a strong kind of political social response. Do you feel like the technology is there now? It's just the social will [00:13:30] that it and the political will that is lagging. Speaker 3:I think that if you just roll out an electric car and give consumers an electric car, they don't view the use of fossil fuel as, as, uh, as a serious enough problem, as a serious enough risk that that technology stands out. One of the criticisms we get is, you know, people say, well, doesn't everybody know that fossil fuel contributes to climate change? And certainly that's a legitimate objection. This is good to even think [00:14:00] about. And when you're talking about criticisms and stuff like that, but about 50% of Americans think that climate change is due to the hole in the ozone layer, so and not due primarily to the burning of fossil fuel. And this is the central issue. I think it's important to point out that in the research we've done, um, regardless of whether we already understand that fossil fuel contributes to climate change, we are as a marketplace, as a consumers of [00:14:30] petroleum-based transportation fuels, that even if we understand that they contribute to climate change, we're discounting those risks. Convenience being one. Right? Exactly. We have a tendency to discount risk of future consequences and we tend to favor the shore. Our short term needs and fossil fuel fulfills our short term needs in exceptional, extraordinary ways. Speaker 5:Right? This is the vote that happens in San Francisco. This what happens at [00:15:00] let's say San Francisco vote. Yes. Yeah. All the oil companies try to stop it. I mean, what has been the challenge against this? Speaker 3:Okay, welcome. If the oil companies don't sue and we can implement them and test them, then we have a stronger case to take it to the state. We'll say, here we go, we've got this program. We know that, you know, California's largest source of emissions comes from transportation Speaker 5:and this is how effective the labeling was in San Francisco. Right? Speaker 3:Right. And we need to [00:15:30] create support for cap and trade legislation. Um, you know, we need to accelerate California's already in place, plans to electrify the transportation system. Here's our proposal. This is happening in Canada. If oil companies intervene, which is they're likely to intervene. If it goes to a statewide measure, they're going to say, this is usurping our free speech [inaudible] and they're going to force a ballot measure. Yes. [00:16:00] If San Francisco adopts it and then the other cities fall in line out. It's important to keep in mind that we've also been talking to city of Oakland as well and they're interested but they're going to sit and wait until they see what happens with the other cities. San Francisco is the most likely candidate to go out front on this. They have the resources, they have the experience to defend themselves and these kinds of very contentious legally precarious type of situations. Speaker 3:The oil companies have already threatened. Berkeley Berkeley [00:16:30] was a ho out ahead of San Francisco. We were, you know, chasing Berkeley for for a couple of years and local politics pushed a, a cell phone warning label for cell radiation up ahead of ours and initiative got pushed into the back burner that the oil companies behind that you five, who knows the cell phone industry is just as uh, evil perhaps. They all come in. He's already had got wind of this a, [00:17:00] the western states petroleum association, um, got wind of this and basically threatened to sue that it would be a violation of their first amendment free speech. And you got into this whole issue of whether the, whether legally this is policy you're putting on oil company's personal properties and not factual information. Ray will argue that CO2 from the burning of fossil fuel is, is scientifically proven to [00:17:30] contribute to climate change. And there is no, uh, this isn't policy, this is factual information. Let's Speaker 5:say the vote occurs, there's a yes vote. So this doesn't mean there's going to be labels for a while. Correct. There. So there'll be a lawsuit, right. And they'll drag that out probably. Yeah. It's likely Speaker 3:for the more probable lawsuit that you must be thinking about it. Yeah, of course we are. Yeah. The cities will be largely in a position to defend themselves. [00:18:00] So it will be the oil companies versus the city of San Francisco. Yes. And any city that chooses to take it on. And it appears to be a tight rope for oil companies to, to walk in within the context of the investigation going on with ExxonMobil and whether ExxonMobil had already, you know, already existing science in many ways and ahead of the rest of the scientific community on the issue of climate change. And because [00:18:30] a, an oil companies, uh, staff is largely scientists. So it's interesting. It's kind of ironic. So whether the oil companies will ultimately sue and you know, drag out this issue, whether their product to be exposed to the fact that their product contributes to climate change, whether they're going to go down this road of defending themselves, uh, it's probably likely that it'll be the oil companies lobby groups that will do the dirty, dirty talking. Speaker 3:And this could be a really exciting [00:19:00] opening, this lawsuit that to me will bring this to the fore and maybe educate people a little bit more outside of here even. Right. I think it would elevate the seriousness, the urgency which we as a species as a society are discounting. It doesn't matter if we understand the role of fossil fuel consumption, we are discounting the risks because we discount risks we can't see as a species, we [00:19:30] do well at responding to dangers that we can see and the consequences in front of us. And we're not so good at these at the physics that climate change presents us to. I was kinda hoping the labels would have like burning trees and yes. Well we would, we would love that and that would probably be get struck down in the courts as a first amendment violation. So the labels that we have currently have passed a couple of rounds of, of legal scrutiny. Speaker 3:So the fact that we have that car bug [00:20:00] and the puff of CO2 is a really big deal. Yeah. But yeah, I think you raise a really, really, I think that the most exceptional aspect of this, as you know, we're, we're calling into question CO2. Does it qualify? Is it serious enough? Is Our consumption of fossil fuel, does it warrant a disclosure label? And are oil companies going to get up in front of the American people in front of the courts? And tell us that their product doesn't contribute to climate [00:20:30] change. So we're looking forward to this battle of course, or we are. So we're elevating the, the, you know, the specter of and the seriousness of this issue and we're calling into question the entire lack of even questioning, you know, using fossil fuel in a, within the context of this risk. So it's really, the labels really are about creating more congruency, you know, between the markets and what the science already knows. Speaker 3:And we're trying to, to have markets [00:21:00] reflect the most efficient way, uh, using information, putting it at the pump, not on a billboard, not on a television ad, but right when we are consuming the stuff, uh, you know, the research shows that you, you know, you start with the individual, you psychologically penetrate that personal space in order for a consumer to have gas to better internalize the risk. That's in the social science term. When we begin to internalize [00:21:30] the risks from fossil fuels, we change that social context. Uh, the research shows on an individual psychological level. When people that are internalized risks from various things, they are more likely to take action. Um, they'll probably be more likely to support a carbon tax. Exactly. These labels really operate, they're just another way of communicating costs. Uh, they operate like a carbon tax. Exactly. It's the same analogy. Speaker 3:They're more politically [00:22:00] expedient, you know, a carbon tax to get one that's, you know, high enough, uh, that will actually change behavior. Um, and this combination could be right. And the labels are really designed to be complimentary policy, uh, particularly here in California because we have cap and trade rules. We just had Jerry Brown signed an extension of the global warming Solutions Act to achieve our objectives and emissions in California. Transportation is the largest source [00:22:30] of emissions in California and all consumers, all of the U S it's the largest source. The correct emissions is a, it just a no, it just surpassed, uh, electricity generation. Just I think this year, wow. Because a lot of of, uh, coal, um, has been converted to natural gas and uh, you know, we are starting to make some dents in the electricity, uh, emissions trajectories. But now we have this 800 pound gorilla, which is our transportation choices and we are veering [00:23:00] more towards, you know, heavy usage of gasoline. Speaker 3:Again in this country, unfortunately vehicle miles traveled have gone up, consumers are favoring bigger SUVs and we have electric vehicles. But like I said before, where we haven't changed the social context around fossil fuels, right? Economic issue in a lot of these areas. It's true and if you lived in Ohio or you know, or West Virginia and you're in, your economic system is based on coal than it's going to be a lot harder conversation. [00:23:30] I worry about the time it takes to push these things along. I think that it's important, you know when you discuss matters, you know these types of things is it, we are dealing with a really complicated thing. What we're is just, we're not coming up with a solution for climate change in general here with our strategy. We're just dealing with a component within a myriad of solutions just to deal with transportation emissions and particularly [00:24:00] the way we perceive socially the use of our continued consumption, our everyday consumption of fossil fuel. Speaker 3:And not even beginning to, you know, deal with the other issues. This kind of a fantasy silver bullet, you know, that there's going to be something out there if we wait long enough, some technological solutions, you know, all we need is a carbon tax. It's, it's not, it's going to be a combination of things and just within the context of transportation fuels, we need to operate [00:24:30] on changing social norms around fossil fuels in order to facilitate a more comprehensive approach to dealing with transportation emissions just within that sector. So if you think about the little pieces of the Pie, you know, uh, electricity generation and agriculture, all of those will also need their own specific tools. You know, we're not arguing that carbon taxes are not important. They would have a broad application a and [00:25:00] efficient application on, in all of the sectors, but they're, they alone won't, won't take care of the problem. Speaker 3:Lots of research we've done on carbon taxes is in the short and intermediate term. They have very little impact on consumption, uh, in the transportation sector in particular. So people will tend to cut elsewhere. What does make a difference in the transportation second, do you do we know that yet? We, I don't think we really know yet. I think it would be a governmental leadership, just a blanket policy kind of a top down, but [00:25:30] it needs a political on social consensus for that to occur. And so we have to create markets. Again, like I said, that our markets for these, you know, these solutions, uh, that are more congruent with a science. Are you working with any other groups? Yeah, we're working with the Sierra Club, uh, in the San Francisco Bay chapter is, uh, we, they are in support and going to help us out at San Francisco League of conservation voters. Speaker 3:Yeah, those are our main environmental groups. [00:26:00] I think the issue that this label addresses, and it's important to point this out, if we all understand that there's a lot of climate denial being funded by oil companies and it's evil, unequivocally evil, but the emissions occur in the sector by the demand for the fuels. If you want oil companies to go away, you have to target demand the demand. The demand is us, it's us. We get people saying this is a guilt trip [00:26:30] or you know, people are not gonna, they're gonna ignore it because it's too negative. And it's, it's important to point out that it's an inappropriate intervention because it's targeting who chooses who, who determines the emissions. Um, and so it really matters when you switch from your guzzler, you know, your SUV to the most fuel efficient car you can buy when you, when it comes time to purchase a car or when your Carpool or when you take transit, et Cetera, [00:27:00] et cetera. Speaker 3:However inconvenient these solutions may sound to you, these behavior changes are going to ultimately determine the emissions, um, and transportation. And so if you want the all companies to go away, you make them go on to the, you know, medicine business only and are making photo voltaic solar panels in the energy sector and gone and renewable, right? Do you want the tar sands and Canada to go away? You know, those tar sands come out [00:27:30] the tail pipes of, of our SUV. [inaudible] this is the reality. So the labels are inappropriate intervention. They, they are that interface between you and your demand for the fuel. Speaker 5:Okay. Jamie, well, how do listeners who maybe have questions or w do you have a website they can go to to learn more about this and and also if they want to help you yeah. Campaign to get this passed in San Francisco. Speaker 3:Yeah. Well we would love to have people write letters to the San Francisco Board of supervisors. [00:28:00] I, the best way to reach us is Twitter at beyond pump capital B and capital p s our, we operate our website. It's our horizon.org. We share the same website with the Canadian or the Canadian groups. So we're work together and that way. So you can look us up on that. And uh, yeah, the letters matter. Just, just say I'm in support of climate change warning labels on gas pumps. You can just write a general letter. The best thing to do is to write [00:28:30] letters, write to John Avalose, the supervisor who's our sponsor. Jeremy Pollack is this legislative aid and let him know that you're in support of this, this legislation, and to just keep beating the drum. Speaker 5:Can people from outside of San Francisco should write letters, so, Yep. Okay. Absolutely. It all matters. Yes. Speaker 3:Matters. I can't tell you, it sounds so cliche, but it matters when you, when you're a politician and you see a letter of support, it gives you a little warm [00:29:00] and fuzzy feeling. Okay. And that is that we want to keep that warm and fuzzy. This is good. This is, this is the right thing to do and that energy level and keep it flowing towards San Francisco. We have Seattle also considering the city of Seattle and Seattle. We'll be sending a letter to the board of supervisors as soon as we get dates and supports the Seattle probably latch on to this legislation and it goes on. I mean, we a Newton, uh, Massachusetts and Cambridge, [00:29:30] Massachusetts were in contact with, with counselors there and those cities who are also looking. So there's a lot of looking and cities are going to have to be brave and be willing to take on the potential for a lawsuit. Um, and some very experienced lawyers have told us this could be something that could be in the courts for years and years. So you can also change the tide. It could also change the tide and change the entire question of our society using fossil fuels and energy source. Jamie Brooks [00:30:00] beyond the pump. And yes, I wish you a lot of luck. Speaker 2:Thanks again, Tricia. You've been listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley featuring bay area innovators to an and again next week, Friday at noon. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Professor John T. Clarke discusses the goals of the Mars Maven Mission.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:You're listening to KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM, university of California listener supported radio. And this is method to the madness coming at you from the Public Affairs Department here at Calex, celebrating the innovative spirit of the bay area and beyond. I'm your host. Eileen is r and today we're lucky enough to have with us professor John Clark from Boston University. Hello professor. How are you? Speaker 2:Hello. Good, thanks for having me on. Speaker 1:And Professor Clark, uh, happened to be here in Berkeley and so we got him on the show to talk about, um, [00:00:30] and innovation of his that is now, um, orbiting the planet Mars. The is shell spectrograph. So we want to talk about this and learn a little bit more about it. But first, um, I always start the show talking to someone who's invented something with the same question. What was the problem statement that you trying to solve? Speaker 2:Uh, okay, so this goes back quite a ways. Um, I trained as an astrophysicist and I built experiments to fly in space and try to analyze the data to answer particular [00:01:00] questions. Uh, the system that is flying now at Mars addresses one question, but it started about 25 years ago. Um, I was using another telescope to look at the atmosphere of Jupiter and there was something that we didn't understand and we used that instrument in an unusual way that it wasn't designed really to do. And we were able to figure out what was going on there. So I got the idea and then I built a prototype for this, a shell [00:01:30] spectrograph, um, to fly basically on a test bed on a rocket that just goes up in the space and comes right back down. You only get about five minutes of data. That's called a sounding rocket. Speaker 2:So let me back up a step. A spectrograph is a device that disperses light into the different wavelengths, the spectrum of colors and a usual, a normal spectrograph would have a certain resolution that refers to how much the light is spread out in wavelength. And a shell was a particular [00:02:00] kind of system that uses a different kinds of dispersing optic called an a shell grading. And it spreads the light out a lot more than a usual system. And to do that, you only get a look at a small part of the color spectrum, but you'd get a very good resolution on the different colors or wavelengths. Speaker 1:Now are there different, um, can you see all parts of the spectrum, just basically what it's trained on or is it only a certain part of the spectrum that it can see? Is there a specific thing you're looking for with the magnification [00:02:30] it gives you, Speaker 2:yeah, I mean, I can do an analogy here. If you are up on grizzly peak looking to her mouth, Tablo Pius low resolution system would see from Mount Tam to San Francisco and Michelle was zoomed in on the peak of Mount Tamela pious and get good resolution on that, but not be able to see anything else. Speaker 1:Ah, okay. So the problem statement of the shell spectrograph is to get deeper into the analysis of certain parts of the atmosphere by magnifying it. Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. It actually magnifies spectrum, [00:03:00] the color spectrum rather than the atmosphere itself. Speaker 1:So as a, as a scientist, um, when you, you recognize the need for this, um, how do you go about, you know, starting to build something like this and now you started this 25 years ago. So I want to kind of go through the story and understand how we've gotten from there to here. But when you first understood, wow, there's a need for this, how do you go about, do you have to go get grant funding or how does that work? Speaker 2:Well, yeah, you start out writing a proposal and maybe calling the person at NASA who would be able to find you, have [00:03:30] a conversation about whether they would be a light to see this kind of a, of a proposal. And I did that when I was assistant professor back in the late eighties and they agreed and then it took several years to develop the system and fly it. And it flew several times on these sounding rockets before we had the opportunity to propose it for this mission to Mars. Speaker 1:Hmm. So, uh, taking a step back real quick. So let's talk a little bit about your background. So your astrophysicists, where did you do your studies? Speaker 2:[00:04:00] Well, I went undergraduate at Denison University in Ohio. I went Grad School in Physics at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore. And from Hopkins I came out to Berkeley to the space sciences lab up on the hill for my first job after Grad school. What were you doing up there? I was doing the same general kind of thing I'm doing now, but I was doing it from ground-based telescopes. I spent a lot of time at Lick Observatory and Mount Hamilton in the South Bay. Speaker 1:Okay. And so, uh, from that point you got, did you became an assistant [00:04:30] professor and you saw you were working with a, uh, a telescope that was looking at Jupiter, is that right? Speaker 2:Yeah, so this was a NASA facility. There was an, a very high orbit around the earth. It's called the international ultraviolet explorer. And that's where I got the idea from Jupiter and then I realized I could apply the same kind of instrument to other planets and other problems. Speaker 1:And so, um, you started to build it, you did some space flights or I'm sorry, some, um, some tax space test space flights [00:05:00] to test the feasibility of it. And um, and this seems like it was a, it's like all kind of a lifetime project, right? You're, you're going to balance it, you know, teaching and doing your regular stuff. And this is a long term project. So take us from the time that you start doing the sample flights to now it's on the, this latest, um, mission to Mars who, tell us about that process. How do you get from kind of the samples to actually getting it onto, I'm sure lots of scientists are trying to bolt things onto something that's going to get orbit Mars. Speaker 2:Yeah, [00:05:30] it's very competitive. Um, and this is not the only thing I was doing research wise, but it was one thing kind of on the back burner for awhile. Um, in 2005, I joined the small group of people from University of Colorado and from Berkeley who were planning to propose for a small, relatively small mission to Mars. Um, so we started meeting in 2005. Uh, it was accepted in 2008 and it was launched in 2013 and it arrived at Maurice this past September and [00:06:00] we're now getting data back. So it's a long process. There's no guarantee it's going to go and there's no guarantee it's going to work even if it's funded. And, and they agreed to launch it. Speaker 1:So what is this? It's called the Maven, right? The via in it. Exactly. What is the a, the Mars Maven Maven Speaker 2:as a mission that stands, it's an acronym. Stands for Mars atmosphere. Volatile evolution experiment. So this is basically a global climate change mission for Mars to try to learn about how Mars has evolved [00:06:30] over its lifetime. In what ways have may be similar to the earth or have been similar to the earth when it was young. And in a nutshell, we think that Mars started out like the earth oceans of water. There is a lot of evidence on the surface of Mars today. You can see what looks just like river channels in flowing patterns, but it's dry. It's very dry today. Any water that's there is locked up in the polar ice caps or maybe into the surface itself like a permafrost. So the purpose of Navan [00:07:00] is to not land. There's no, um, rover a maven. It's orbiting around and through the atmosphere of Mars and trying to figure out the detailed physical principles by which the atmosphere of Mars is changing today. And then we could extrapolate back in time and understand what Mars was like in the past. Speaker 1:So is the hypothesis that, um, we can, um, try to understand better how to head off our own potential losing our oceans [00:07:30] by studying Mars or what, what's the, is it, is there that much of a analog that we can draw between that planet and our planet? Speaker 2:Well, you're painting a very particular picture there and worth looking more at a big picture. If we went to understand how planets in general work, we'd like to understand Mars that could teach us something about the earth. We're not really trying to save the Earth by sending a mission to Mars. Uh, we'd like to understand more of these principles to understand these exoplanets that are being found today around other stars. Speaker 1:[00:08:00] Yeah. And tell us about those exoplanets. What are, what are those that are being found today? These new discoveries, right. Speaker 2:There are new discoveries. The, um, technique by which these are found is the reflex motion of the star response to the gravity of the planet. So the first ones that were found were giant planets that were very close to the star. And now as the method improves, we're finding smaller planets farther away. We're not yet at the point of finding an earth, but it's getting close. Speaker 1:So we're, we're speaking with Professor John Clark, uh, [00:08:30] um, from, uh, Boston University who's, uh, luckily here in Berkeley to talk to us about, uh, the shell spectrograph that he has developed that is on the Mars Maven, um, and is, uh, helping to analyze the atmosphere of Mars. So I have one, you know, as a layman who knows nothing about this stuff, there's one thing I don't understand at all is the time lag between information gathered by Maven, right. And coming back to Earth, like how long does that take? Speaker 2:[00:09:00] Uh, well, it's minutes. It's not hours. Um, it's, uh, on the order of maybe 10 minutes. It varies a lot depending on where nick, the, uh, Mars and the earth are in their orbits around the sun. The distance can change dramatically, um, from one time of the year to another. Speaker 1:What's the mechanism through which the information is sent? Speaker 2:It's just a radio transmitter, just like Cadillacs, a little more, well, not probably not more powerful, but it's beamed back toward the earth and their large dishes on the earth, they pick up the signal. [00:09:30] So we send commands to the spacecraft and we get the data down. Speaker 1:Same Way. Wow. So it's, it's, it's, I'm much faster than I would've thought I would have. Like you hear about like these telescopes that go into deep space and, and you know, they're sending images back, but you don't even know if that telescope still exists. But I guess this is totally different because some closer away. So, um, what are the, it's, it's been orbiting Mars for the last six months or so, right? Correct. So what, what are, what are, what are you guys finding? Speaker 2:[00:10:00] Um, we're just, uh, still in the early phases of, of learning about Mars. When you first get a mission to another planet, like this one, the first thing you do is turn everything on and test it out. And you test your ability to command it, to have the onboard computer, do things in the right order and at the right time. And there's always a process of a few months where you understand how it works and, and, and fix things basically. Um, fortunately Neva is working very well. There've been some little hiccups, but basically everything's working. [00:10:30] Uh, we then get getting data back and we're now getting into more of a routine mode where we do the same thing every orbit around Mars. And then we can build up measurements over the course of a Mars year, a Mars orbit around the sun, and start to understand some of these physicals, Speaker 1:the principles. So, um, the, uh, and how long has a Mars year? Last year was about two or three years to earth years. So, and is there a, an expected lifespan of the Maven? Um, uh, is, [00:11:00] is it just called? It's, it's a satellite spacecraft. Yeah. Speaker 2:Yeah. It is a satellite. Um, it's expected to last for five to 10 years. It's built to last a long time. The prime mission for Maven is one earth year around Mars, but we expect that it would be continued for a second earth year to get one full Mars orbit around the sun. And the science team would like to go longer than that. Speaker 1:And so how did, like your involvement, cause you have one part portion of it. Yeah. Um, how, um, how does it work? Is [00:11:30] Do you have like a, I don't, I suppose you have like an iPhone app that's giving you data. I mean, where do you guys collect the information and is it, can you be constantly harvesting the information from your computer or is there different feeds coming from my phone? It's on air book. Nice. Speaker 2:Um, I mean the data come down, they go to the Lockheed's plant south of Denver and then they come to the science centers. And I would like to point out that the lab at Berkeley, the space sciences lab built several of the instruments that are on maven and several of the instruments were built, the University of Colorado. [00:12:00] And I have one channel of one instrument building Colorado. Speaker 1:Okay. And so your, your channel is, the shell spend should respect it is which is a sending back data. And what exactly in the atmosphere as the shell spectrograph looking at in Mars? Speaker 2:That's a good question. The shell spectrograph was designed to measure the ratio of deterioration to hydrogen in the upper atmosphere of Mars. So deterioration is like heavy water. It's a proton with a neutron in it and it has twice the mass of [00:12:30] a hydrogen atom. Um, the, the quick picture here is that when Mars was young, we think it had a lot of water. We think a lot of that water boiled off in the space. The gravity of Mars is only about one quarter of the gravity of the earth. So we think it lost a lot of its atmosphere. They just floated away. Well, it didn't float. Some of the atoms have enough velocity in their head pointing up. They can escape the gravity. It's a small fraction. But if that happened and water was lost water, we break up into hydrogen and oxygen [00:13:00] and about one and a 10 or a hundred thousand of those hydrogens would be deterioration. Now the hydrogen would boil off faster than the deterioration because it's half the mass. So if you lost a lot of water over time, there'd be more deterioration. And the ratio of those two gives you an idea of how much water was lost over the history of the planet. How long do you Speaker 1:thank you? It'll take to, to um, collect enough data for you to have enough to do your extrapolation that you want to make? Speaker 2:Well, we have [00:13:30] a quick look. Now we know that it's working. We're measuring deterioration and hydrogen. Now we get down into the gritty details of exactly how you analyze that and how accurately you can pin down, um, the numbers. But we don't want to just measure it to turn into hydrogen at one time. We want to look at Mars at different latitudes over the course of its seasons and find out if there are variations in the amount of deterioration in the atmosphere. Speaker 1:Now as an astro physicist, um, what is your, um, opinion of, you know, it seems like [00:14:00] the NASA has shifted years under the Obama, one of his big access to stop the space shuttle program and focus on, uh, more of these types of scientific endeavors. Is this the right move for, for us to be doing right now is going further out and looking at Mars and potentially further exploration? Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean if you ask a scientist, they'll say that robotic exploration is the way to go. It's much less expensive. You don't put anybody's life at risk and we can build very [00:14:30] good instruments to send to the other planets. But a lot of people also believe in and support, um, human space flight and getting away from low earth orbit. And that's another thrust of the current, uh, NASA space program. Speaker 1:So, uh, and so the robots like those rovers on Mars and, and Maven is communicating with those rovers. Right? Speaker 2:Uh, it's not, it's just with the earth. Speaker 1:Oh, okay. I thought that there was a relay is there's an ability for it to really, Speaker 2:ah, right. So you're ahead of me here. So maven was built by NASA [00:15:00] with a relay, so that in the future, after the maven science is more or less complete, they will change the orbit and then use the maven spacecraft to relay data from landers on the ground back to the earth in both Speaker 1:after it's kind of primary or first mission is complete. Right. So tell them, tell me a little bit, you know, and we're talking to professor John Clark from Boston University who is a part of the, uh, Mars maven team about the mission to Mars and the Michele spectrograph, [00:15:30] which he invented to help, uh, understand the atmosphere of Mars and climate change on Mars. So tell us a little bit about, um, just the, the scale of building something like a satellite that goes to Mars to figure out this problem. Like, we talked a little bit about it, but how long does it take? How many people are involved? Seems like a really big endeavor. Speaker 2:It is a big endeavor. We started out in 2005 with maybe a dozen, 15 people around the table thinking about how [00:16:00] we'd write the proposal. Um, it ended up with probably at one point a a hundred, 200 people. I'm working on developing the spacecraft and the instruments and testing them. Uh, the instruments were built at different labs around the country. Um, and then they were put together at Lucky's plant, south of Denver. The whole thing was tested. Um, and there's a lot of testing that goes on, um, with these missions cause it's, uh, you know, you launch these things, you can't go back if anything goes wrong. It's like building a car to [00:16:30] last for 10 years without ever changing the oil or filling the gas tank and you know, things can go wrong. Um, so there's very thorough testing on these things. Speaker 1:What's the failure rate of these types of, I mean, I'm sure that the level of testing is beyond what anybody could really imagine, but is what's the failure rate of these types of missions? Speaker 2:Well, if you run it long enough, something will fail 100%. What you want to do is make sure that it's built to last longer than what you need it to do. And this [00:17:00] has gotten very good at this. Um, Lockheed builds very good spacecraft. NASA builds very good instruments. The, um, so you think about a timeline for these things and how long they're going to go. And, um, I'm thinking of a, of an anecdote. I worked for NASA when I was younger and I was at the space flight center in Huntsville, Alabama where Wernher von Brown worked and they still told stories about him and they asked him, how do you make these, these rockets, you know, how do you make them work? It's very risky. Hard [00:17:30] to do. He said, well, we design it and we build it and then we tested until it breaks and then we figure out what went wrong and we tested again and we do that until it doesn't break and then it's ready to fly. So it's the testing program that's more important than trying to figure out everything that can go wrong. Speaker 1:Yeah. And so I'm, I'm a software, so I understand testing software and coming up with, you know, unit tests and system tests and really, really running through that rigor. But I would think that the level of rigor on something like this [00:18:00] must be much, much, um, greater than, than I could imagine. Is there a certain protocol that, you know, NASA puts everything that's going to go into space through that, you know, it has to pass, you know, 50 million checklists or whatever it is, or how does that work? Speaker 2:Right. There is a protocol. You will test it by vibrating the instrument, simulating the vibration of launch. You'll put it through a temperature cycle, hot and cold, more than the range you think we'll experience in space. You have to put it in a vacuum [00:18:30] to simulate the vacuum of space. There are all kinds of things like that. But the other trick that the aerospace industry and NASA use is to try to use things that have flown before that worked and not try something that's brand new, you know, improve the technology gradually and not just start from scratch. Speaker 1:So there's this, there's learnings from the 1960s missions that are kind of baked into, we just continually improve, improve, improve. Speaker 2:Yeah. But there's probably not much left from the 60s, I hope. [00:19:00] But it is Speaker 1:gradual process. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Well, um, you know what, one question that I wanted to ask you about is, uh, the, there's a certain, um, it seems like the, you know, our, um, humanities race into spaces evolved quite a bit. You know, if I Harken back to the 60s, you had a big competition, but now it seems like there's a lot more collaboration. Is that, is that from an, from a layman's perspective, that's the way it looks. Is that accurate or, we have this, you have just one [00:19:30] international space station and everybody kind of shares. And, um, so is there other other countries involved on the Maven or is it this is a NASA, Speaker 2:we have several European co-investigators. Scientific co-investigators. That's correct. Yeah. And A, we have a couple of people from Japan who are participating in the science, uh, but there's still somewhat of a competition between nations. Okay. The, uh, the Chinese who are trying to do things on their own without getting help from other countries. And, uh, I think that if China landed [00:20:00] on the moon, that might help us in terms of getting this country behind, going back and doing more things in space. Speaker 1:So do you think that there's still much to explore on the moon? We've, we've kind of given up that, uh, before we, we've given up that mission before you really figured out everything and we should've, Speaker 2:well, to me, we've learned a lot about the moon and we should be moving on and doing other things. Um, but I support, um, human space flight. Um, I personally suspect that the future of human space [00:20:30] flight is more in private companies. It might be space x, Elon Musk going to Mars, um, before the government does. And partly I say that just because companies are willing to take on more risk and do things less expensively than the government is. Speaker 1:Yeah. And, and uh, and be more disruptive but potentially be, um, more dangerous. You know, that, that's the scary part of that too. Is that what kind of, there's probably no regulation of space level or maybe there is, I don't know. Speaker 2:Well, the more risk [00:21:00] you take, the more accidents there will be. I think that's true and I expect that things will go wrong. Um, but we know a lot already in terms of building rockets and flying things, launching things into space. And private companies today can take advantage of that history of knowledge and hopefully things will go well. But in the early days of aviation, there were accidents and people got hurt, but they kept going. And that's, I think, the kind of spirit that you need to have. Speaker 1:Yeah, sure. I mean, all great explorers. [00:21:30] They're all gonna eat to cat or yeah. Serious risks with a life and limb. Yeah. I'm the worst. We're speaking with Professor John Clark from Boston University here. Kayla likes Berkeley 90.7 FM. He's a part of the Mars maven team. Uh, it's a satellite that's now orbiting Mars that is, um, uh, sending back information about the atmosphere and climate change on that planet. Um, and Professor Clark also teaches, uh, actively teaches at Boston University. What, what are you teaching there? Right now? Speaker 2:I'm in the department of astronomy. [00:22:00] I teach planetary science, uh, intro astronomy all the way from non-science major undergraduates to advanced Grad students. Speaker 1:Okay. Well I wanted to ask you about, um, you know, as someone who's studied this as a career, what is the, um, you know, in our lifetime we were to say like the next 50 years, what would you say are the big milestones in terms of space exploration that are attainable for us as a race? Speaker 2:Wow. 50 years is kind of a long horizon. Um, [00:22:30] and it's hard to predict. I th I expect that robotic missions will continue to fly over that time period. Um, I think that human space flight will develop, there are a lot of people who have decided that Mars is the place for human beings to go next. It's, um, it's very risky. There's a lot of questions about radiation, about keeping people healthy. Um, it's not going to be an easy thing to do, but I can see that happening in less than 50 years. Yeah. Now, another thing that I find [00:23:00] more interesting in the shorter term, like 10, 10 ish years, is these, um, these things like virgin galactic where they're building ways to take people up into space and come right back down. And I think that, um, a lot of people alive today will have the choice of the cost will come down as they do it more and more. I think they'll have the choice of buying a car or flying in space. It'll be at that cost level. Speaker 1:But flying is patients on a Lark just to experience zero gravity or to actually [00:23:30] go from one part of the planet to the other. Speaker 2:So when I go into a room with a bunch of students, I ask them if you could spend 20 k and flying the space, how many of you would do it? And I wait about three seconds. And then I say, if your hand isn't up, you're not going to do it. If you're thinking about whether it's a idea, yeah, you're not the ones who will be on these first slides. Speaker 1:So it's going to be some kind of a, a something for the Uber rich kind of like to say, Oh yeah, I've been in space. That kind of thing. Speaker 2:A lot of people can afford to buy a car and they might prefer to ride the bus and have the experience [00:24:00] of flying in space. Speaker 1:Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Um, what about, um, as we find these more exoplanets, um, what is your, what is your feeling on what's out there? Is there, is there life out there that we're going to be, um, able to, I know it's the million dollar question by you, someone who's studied this your whole career probably. So what's your feeling? Speaker 2:Um, well I don't, I won't give you any feelings, but I thought about it. We see so many other stars, so many other galaxies and now we're finding so many planets [00:24:30] around nearby stars. It's become clear that most stars have planets around them. They're very common. They're just, if you look at the numbers that are going to be so many of them out there, that there have to be a lot of them that are similar to the earth. And there may be forms of life that we have not dreamt of that could be on other kinds of planets. So if you just look at the numbers, the Azar, there's life all over the universe. So that's the good news. Now the other news is that as far as we know, nothing can travel faster than the speed of light [00:25:00] and at that speed there may be life all over the universe and we'll never find it just because of the distance. It's going to be hard. It may be close by. Okay. I'm not saying it's impossible, but most of it we will probably never be in contact with. Speaker 1:Do you think we'll ever be able to really know? You know, explain it. I mean this is the big question. You know, you have like religion versus science and there's this big leap of faith. You kind of have to take it either way. Like you're saying there, it's probably out there, but how are we ever going to know [00:25:30] unless they come? Someone does can travel faster than the speed of light and show up in our doorstep. Speaker 2:Well, what I described is what we understand today. Now I'm willing to change my mind that the drop Speaker 3:you're a scientist, Speaker 2:it's been, you know, very dangerous to assume that you know too much, uh, throughout history. Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, I always think about 'em, um, as again, someone who is not an astrophysicist about star trek, which is a lot of my understanding of this. And they have the, um, the premise that there's [00:26:00] higher, um, forms that are watching us waiting for us to be able to unlock some secrets of interstellar travel. And once we do, then they show up and say, okay, you know, now you have to learn how to responsibly travel. And you know, perhaps that's uh, that's out there cause there's potential to have so many different kinds of life forms up there. So Speaker 2:it's fun to think about and there's a lot we don't know. But another thing that scientists talk about is a thing called the Thermi paradox. And Rico fare made decades ago said, if there's other life in the [00:26:30] universe, where is it? How come we don't know about it? Why haven't they come here and contacted us? And that's a different way of looking at the same question. Speaker 1:Yeah. So, um, uh, in closing the professor John Clark here from Boston University and on KLX Berkeley in 90.7 FM, if you were to kind of wave your magic wand and get your wildest dreams from this maven exploration and the shell spectrograph that you put on it, what would you, what would you find out? What would be the big, you know, victory for you? Speaker 2:We would learn everything we need [00:27:00] to know about the escape of water into space from Mars to be able to go back 3 billion years and know what Mars was like when it was young. Was Mars earth-like and for how long was that earth-like? Long enough for life to begin on Mars, a questions like that. Speaker 1:All right, well hopefully we'll find that out and it's not, it's going to be pretty quick like in the next couple of years. Right. This is the great, well, best of luck. Thanks so much for the exploration you're doing for all of us. Hopefully we'll all get to learn about it. And you can follow, um, [00:27:30] the Mars may even, there's a page on NASA I believe, that you can find. You can just Google a maven and you will see that. And thanks so much for joining us, professor. Speaker 2:It's a pleasure. Thank you. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Ming Hammond is Asst. Professor of Chemistry, Molecular & Cell Biology. Her research combines Chemical and Molecular Biology, Organic Chemistry; Reengineering functional RNAs, and mechanistic studies of RNA-based gene regulation. She created the web site youstem.org.TranscriptSpeaker 1: Spectrum's next. Speaker 2: Okay. Speaker 1: Welcome to spectrum the science and technology show on k a l x Berkeley, a biweekly [00:00:30] 30 minute program bringing you interviews featuring bay area scientists and technologists as well as a calendar of local events and news. Speaker 3: Good afternoon. My name is Brad swift and I'm your host. Our interview is with assistant professor of chemistry and molecular and cell biology Ming Hammond. Her research combines the fields of chemical biology, organic chemistry, molecular biology and bioinformatics. Ming Hammond [00:01:00] received her bachelor of Science Degree from the California Institute of Technology and her phd from UC Berkeley. She created and maintains the website you stem.org this site consolidates opportunities in science, technology, engineering and math for primary and secondary school students in the Greater Bay area. Assistant Professor Ming Hammond. Welcome to spectrum. Hello. Thank you. Would you give us an overview of [00:01:30] the research that you're doing and in so doing, remind us what DNA and RNA are and how they're different. Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. I think a analogy that I like to use to describe the difference between DNA and RNA is that you can think of DNA as kind of an instruction manual for life. So that a very large instruction manual, several billion letters in length and it has all the instructions for how to make [00:02:00] all of the molecules, all the functioning parts of the cell RNA are messenger RNA is, are basically xerox copies of some pages of the DNA instruction manual that, um, gets used by the cell to translate the instructions into making proteins like enzymes and other components of the cell. Um, my lab is interested in how these RNA sequences are [00:02:30] regulated, how they're sent to different places in the cell and also how to change them so that we have, maybe we can control how the instructions are being used by the cell. Speaker 3: And so with that research, are you trying to create a generally applicable way to alter the RNA so that the gene is expressed differently? Speaker 1: Um, yes, exactly. And [00:03:00] first of all, understanding in nature how natural systems, um, control gene expression. And one reason we're interested in this is because for multicellular organisms like humans or plants, you have the same instruction manual in every single cell and yet you have multicellularity, right? So you have differences, different sets and instructions are being expressed [00:03:30] in different cell types, in different organs and in different portions of plants. For example, and were interested in understanding the basic mechanism for how the Messenger RNA is involved in ensuring that specific instructions are being followed in specific tissue types or specific cell types. Speaker 3: Does that then also include the idea that you mentioned of [00:04:00] certain of the messages are incorrect on purpose and so understanding that sounds complex, Speaker 1: right? So it's kind of interesting that one of the ways in which you can control, for example, whether a specific gene is expressed in the heart versus in the liver or the brain for example, is that messenger RNA for the same gene in the [00:04:30] brain is correct and can give rise to the proper protein and in the heart the same gene set of instructions can be spliced into messenger RNA in this specific way. That gives you a slightly different form of the protein. For example, one that has a slightly different function and therefore specific for that tissue. And then in the other case that I described, you might find in yet another tissue type that the same [00:05:00] message can be spliced so that it actually has a signal that says this is a garbage sequence, this is a nonsense message, don't follow this message. And the sal is smart enough to read these nonsense messages and know them to be nonsense. And what they do is the cell actually degrades these RNA. So for example, in that specific tissue type that the protein is never made. And so that's how you get [00:05:30] specialization of self. Speaker 3: And in your research are you trying to understand all of those cases? Speaker 1: We do most of our work in plants and we're very interested in the case where you can effectively shut off Accion in one condition, in war one cell type versus having it on or expressed in another cell type. So in plants, the mechanism that we study is [00:06:00] how these messages are lysed in these different ways. And that's called alternative splicing. And the predominant function of alternative spicing and plants appears to be this latter case where the messages either made and it's correct or it's made and has nonsense, but the reason I mentioned the other case is that it turns out something that's differentiates humans, for example, or mammals from plants. Besides the obvious differences, but a subtle [00:06:30] difference. The one I'm interested in is it turns out the majority of alternative splicing in mammals is actually to make different forms of that protein, so it's kind of interesting how the same basic mechanism is used by different organisms to do different things. Speaker 4: [inaudible]Speaker 3: you were listening to spectrum on k a l x Berkeley. Today we're talking with assistant professor Ming Hammond about [00:07:00] her work in messenger RNA and gene expression Speaker 4: [inaudible]Speaker 3: does the nonsense message have some value that you are researching that you are interested in understanding what is, what is the value of it to the, to the organism. Speaker 1: Okay. It's very important for the organism in general that the cell needs to have a way to know when a message or when a messenger RNA is [00:07:30] instructing nonsense because it's actually known that you can have mutations, for example, if you have a mutation in your gene that gives you a bad message. If sometimes that message then gets expressed as a protein, that protein with this altered function or ane may in fact lead to detrimental results, bad results for the south. Right. Um, and so, um, in general, the, there's a, [00:08:00] we call it a surveillance mechanism, so the cell is actually looking out for dad copies of the Messenger RNA. And so the cell normally has these surveillance mechanisms to, to, to play a very important role in keeping the, and keeping the cell healthy. And so I think what has happened is that the cell has started exploiting this mechanism to regulate chains for [00:08:30] tissue specificity and all of these other things I mentioned Speaker 3: in this regard. Are some cells smarter than others? Speaker 1: Hmm. I, I wouldn't say that [inaudible] Speaker 3: in terms of evolutionary activity, it would seem that this is kind of the place where that might go on in terms of changing an organism over time. How would RNA and nonsense allow for some sort of an evolutionary capacity to happen? Speaker 1: Okay. [00:09:00] First of all, the surveillance mechanism does not change the genomic DNA or she does not change the DNA instruction manual. Speaker 3: It's too far down the pipeline, right? So it's just reacting to the DNA instruction set, right? So it's really not there that any evolutionary activity is going to happen. It's going to happen at the higher lows. Right? Speaker 1: There are people that look to see for example, which, uh, which organisms do have this mechanism, right? So it's not that [00:09:30] some cells are smarter than others, but more that there are some organisms that don't have this surveillance pathway, for example. And bacteria do not, as far as we know, have NMD pathways, um, this nonsense mediated decay pathways, but a lot of organisms with a nucleus to have this mechanism. But one of the things that we're interested in in the lab is there is a lot of people that study this mechanism in humans and in other mammals. [00:10:00] And we're working in this in plants and we're looking at the comparison between them. What are the differences and what are the things that are similar Speaker 3: in your research? I noticed that there's something called molecular sensing that you're interested in. Can you explain that? Speaker 1: Sure. So, um, I mentioned that were studying how gene expression is regulated at the RNA level. And one of the really fascinating [00:10:30] things that I worked on as first as a postdoc and now that we're still working on in the lab is it turns out some of the Messenger RNA [inaudible] that exist in bacteria don't just encode the sequences for making proteins. But there is a little extra part of the Messenger RNA in the beginning part of the messenger RNA sequence that encodes what we call a ribo [00:11:00] switch. You can think about the riboswitch as basically a natural chemical sensor that's hooked up to the Messenger RNA. And what the rabis switch does is it responds to the presence of a chemical, for example, whether there is plenty of an amino acid in the south and the RNA is able to sense the presence of say the [00:11:30] amino acid and when it binds to this chemical, it changes its shape and through this confirmation or shape change, it causes the message downstream to actually get shut off. If you have enough of the amino acid, you turn off the gene that is used to make that amino acid because you don't need anymore. So I turns out there are many, many of these rabis switches [00:12:00] performing this simple chemical, boolean logic at the RNA level doing molecular sensing and in my lab were of course interested in the natural, these natural ones. And we're also interested in making unnatural ones as well. Speaker 3: And how is it that you utilize that information? Speaker 1: One way you can make use of the [inaudible] switch as I mentioned, is that its normal function is to turn on or turn off a chain depending on [00:12:30] the natural chemical logic is. So it turns out you can take the DNA sequence that encodes the ribo switch and you could put it in front of a different gene. And now that other gene also responds to this chemical. So it's actually a portable logic gate, so to speak. And what we're interested in is in making new Ribas switches, for example, making ones that can work in plants [00:13:00] because there is so far as we know, only one natural rubber switch that functions in plants and were interested in exploring whether we can transport these chemical sensors and utilize them and in other organisms including plant. Speaker 5: This is spectrum. I'm k a l x Berkeley. We're talking with the assistant professor Ming Hammond [00:13:30] about her research with messenger RNA and how it interacts with DNA genes. [inaudible] Speaker 3: so are you building those pre-IPO switches yourself or are you borrowing them from other organisms? Speaker 1: Um, well I would say it's actually a mix of both. We are also fundamentally interested in the mechanics of it too, right? How, how riboswitch with dysfunction. What is really amazing about Rabis, which is [00:14:00] is that there are so many different species of bacteria that utilize these Ribas switches and these bacteria live in all different types of climates than of them can live in extreme temperatures, both hot and cold and others are more, you know, soil dwelling organisms and live at pretty close to room temperature and all of them have the same sensor. And it's kind of an interesting question to ask how it is that the same sensor works [00:14:30] in all of these organisms? What part of the sequence of the, the switch of the RNA is responsible for for that [inaudible]. Speaker 3: So largely you, you work from the gene DNA area down into the RNA to control the expression of that gene. Speaker 1: Everything that we do does start the DNA level and we have in mind and designed for messenger RNA that we want. And then we can go back and say, okay, [00:15:00] at the DNA level, this is what the DNA instructions have to be to make that messenger RNA. And then we see, okay, let's build it weak. Then express it and see, okay, is the RNA doing? What we want it to and then further on is this messenger RNA being shut off the way that we want it to under this condition and then turned on under a different set of conditions. Speaker 3: And how do you judge whether or not you've had success? Is it pretty black and white [00:15:30] or is it somewhat gray? Speaker 1: One of the kind of very basic techniques that we use is a very simple assay. So you can imagine if we wanted to see whether under condition a this messenger RNA we designed is not making the protein versus condition B when when it is. So what we ended up using is what we call a reporter gene, a gene that expresses a protein that is fluorescent so that if [00:16:00] you shine light at a certain wavelength, you get a light emission from this protein. So we express the gene and in this case on the surface of the plant leaf and we can scan the leaf and let's say condition a is on the left hand side and condition B is on the right hand side. And we'll actually see that the right hand side, the leaf will be glowing and the left hand side of leaf not be glowing because of Ganar that we use to tact [00:16:30] the light emission from the surface of the leaf. Uh, it actually shows up as a gray scale limit. So that's how it turns out. Speaker 3: The organisms that you're currently working with, how do you select them? Speaker 1: One of the ways that you would want to select an organism is, is that other people have worked with the organism and that it's been shown by other researchers that it's easy to do the experiments that you're planning and that there are protocols developed for the experiments [00:17:00] that you're planning. And so it's kind of expedient, but we pick a plant called Nicole [inaudible], Tami Ana that is actually cousin to the tobacco plant, which is of some agricultural interests and also has been shown by other people to be very easy to work with for our experiments. Speaker 3: How has the hardware and the software that you use to do your research changed over the past? What 10 years that you've been doing this [inaudible] Speaker 1: [00:17:30] so we don't actually use much software. We can talk about the hardware. Sure we can like the development of technology to do DNA sequencing very, very rapidly has really been astonishing to see. And for my research in the RNA field, it has an equal impact I would say as well because it turns out if you want to study an RNA sequence, one of the ways we study it is that we do what's called a [00:18:00] reverse transcription. So we convert the RNA back to DNA and then we sequence the DNA that's made from the RNA. So it's kind of the reverse of the normal case of things that technology has enabled people to not just look at the human genome, but what we called a human transcriptome. So this is what are all the Messenger RNHS that are being expressed in different tissue types. And so that has led us to discovering, for [00:18:30] example, these differences in expression at different, um, messenger RNA is on a much, much grander scale. It much, much higher throughput scale than was possible 10 15 years ago. More fundamentally, it has made certain experiments that were impossible to do possible. Now the next challenge is how to sort through all that data Speaker 6: [inaudible]Speaker 5: you are tuned to k a l [00:19:00] x Berkeley. You're listening to spectrum. We're talking with Assistant Professor Mang Hammond about RNA based gene regulation Speaker 6: [inaudible].Speaker 1: Can you explain the a youth stem.org website and I believe you started this, didn't right. So my lab and I started this website called youth stem.org and the inspiration for the website is, it's actually kind of a personal story, [00:19:30] but I think it resonates with a lot of young scientists and other scientists is when I was a younger student, even before I went off to college and I was deciding what subjects I liked, what I like to do, I had these opportunities where yes, some of my science teachers saw something in me or thought that I would enjoy science and wanted to encourage me in the sciences and they would suggest that I go and do some of these programs that [00:20:00] are available in the state of Maryland, for example, where my family is from. And you know, I had a chance to work in a lab at the University of Maryland School of Pharmacy. Speaker 1: And I remember that made a really big impression on me when I was a freshman in college. And my freshman advisor asked me what I wanted to do for work study. I said that, well of course I wanted to do research in a lab because I said why I was already in a lab and in high school and I really liked it [00:20:30] and that's what I want to do for work study. And it was really exciting and really fun. So that's the origin story I guess of you stem. And in fact we have a lot of programs on the Berkeley campus for students interested in science that are, and that some of which pay actually a stipend. And not everyone can afford to pay money to do a summer program, but we have these free programs [00:21:00] that are I think really great. So I wanted to have a mechanism to point that out to local area students. Speaker 1: And the kind of idea I had was, well wouldn't it be great if we had like essentially a craigslist for bay area free local science and engineering and math programs? And so that's um, basically what we intend for a stem to be. [00:21:30] You can actually go on the website. It's you stem.org and you can click on a subject. You know, my favorite subject of course is chemistry. And so you could pick chemistry and it'll actually show you just the programs that are for students interested in chemistry. You can search by your grade and it tell you which programs are for you or you also filter by the location. So we're focused a lot on the East Bay, but there are also programs down in the South Bay down [00:22:00] in San Jose, Santa Cruz that we found in ones up in Monterrey. Speaker 3: So for people locally within the bay area who do have programs, they could contact you through the web. Speaker 1: Right? There's actually a link on the bottoms saying you're saying if you're a program director and you would like to list your program, the criteria is that we're interested in listing programs where the students can apply themselves or it can be nominated by a teacher that it's open to [00:22:30] any student that wants to apply. And uh, certainly we emphasize programs that are free or that pass state band. Speaker 3: And you recently received the NIH director's new innovator award. How did that happen? Speaker 1: Well, the short answer is I applied but um, yes. So it's, it's a really great honor to have received it and actually [00:23:00] to a members of the chemistry department received the new innovator where I this year, myself and Michelle Chang, another assistant professor in the same department. And so it, that was just really great news for both of us. And yeah, it was really a day for celebration in the lab for sure. I mean Hammon thanks very much for coming on spectrum. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. Brad. Speaker 6: [inaudible]Speaker 3: [00:23:30] irregular feature of spectrum is to mention a few of the science and technology events happening locally over the next few weeks. Rick Kaneski joins me for the calendar. Speaker 7: Come to nerd night [00:24:00] on Wednesday, January 18th at the rickshaw stop, one 55 [inaudible] street at Venice in San Francisco, doors at seven 30 show at eight. All ages are welcome to this $8 show at this month and our night copies of the inaugural issue of nerd night magazine will be given away. There's an article in there about cephalopod sex by the bay area's own. Rich Ross, Robyn, sue Fisher and Corey bloom will share their stories of liquid nitrogen ice cream. Their company smitten in San Francisco's first [00:24:30] made to order scoop shop and they will show off the engineering marvel that is dubbed to Kelvin that can churn up ice cream in under a minute. What do you love? Bounty and David Gallagher. We'll present Carville by the sea. San Francisco's Streetcar, suburb, and you CSF, Phd Student Tsai. Dear Etsy, we'll talk about antibody engineering and how artificially created antibodies can or will eventually fight disease. Visit s F. Dot. [inaudible] dot com for more information, Speaker 3: smoke [00:25:00] and mirrors is geoengineering a solution to global warming. Professor Alan Robock from the Department of Environmental Sciences at Rutgers University will address this question. Wednesday, January 25th 4:00 PM in Barrels Hall Room One 10 on the UC Berkeley campus. This event is free and open to the public Speaker 7: on Thursday, January 26th from seven to 9:00 PM the bone room at 1573 Solano avenue in Berkeley or present [00:25:30] eye to compound eye, the art and science of insect photography. In this free lecture insect photographer Becky Jaffe will incorporate and it dotes from biology, ecology and cultural anthropology to offer an engaging account of her field experiences that will inspire you to pick up the camera and look at insects with new eyes. Visit www.boneroompresents.com for more information now a few news items. Here's the Rick science [00:26:00] news reviews. A January 5th article in science by Sandra Garrett and Joshua Rosenthal at the University of Puerto Rico Medical Sciences campus in San Juan that shows that while octopuses in the Arctic have very similar DNA with warm water octopuses, their nerve cells are very different. This difference allows them to operate in the frigid waters and arises due to m RNA edits. These edits change the way that nerve cells opening includes gates to produce electrical impulses based on the species of octopus. This is the first [00:26:30] discovered example of m RNA editing to help an organism adapt to its environment and speculation remains as to how quickly and prevalent the mechanism might be. Speaker 3: In December, NASA announced seventh 2012 as the new target launch date for the space x commercial orbital transportation services milestone missions two and three. This mission begins with the liftoff of the Falcon nine rocket from Cape Canaveral boosting the Dragon's [00:27:00] spacecraft into low earth orbit. The space x dragon spacecraft will perform all of the commercial orbital transportation services, milestone mission two objectives, which include numerous operations in the vicinity of the International Space Station, and thereafter we'll perform the commercial orbital transportation services milestone mission three objectives. These include approach birthing with the International Space Station, astronauts opening the dragon spacecraft [00:27:30] and unloading cargo. Finally, the astronauts will close the space craft and send it back to Earth for recovery from the Pacific Ocean off the coast of California. This mission, if successful, will mark a major milestone in commercial American space flight Speaker 7: did January 4th issue of the Journal of neuroscience has an article by UCLA is Jenn Lang and others that reports promising anti-alcohol effects of a seed extract from the Asian Havana Dakis or Japanese [00:28:00] raising tree. This was first claimed to be a hangover remedy in the year six five nine rats that took dihydro, Myostatin or [inaudible] were found to take longer to become intoxicated and recovered four times more quickly than rats who did not take the extract. The extract further decrease the likelihood of hangover, anxiety and seizures in the rats. DSM also curved alcohol consumption. Rats consumed more and more alcohol gradually when it allowed, but d h m leased alcohol does not lead to this increased [00:28:30] consumption. DHM blocks alcohol's effects on Gaba receptors and the team has found no side effects in animal testing. They old next study the health effects on people Speaker 2: [inaudible]Speaker 4: the music heard during the show is from a low stone, a David album titled Folk and Acoustic released under a creative Commons attribution license 3.0 Speaker 2: [00:29:00] [inaudible] Speaker 4: production assistance from Rick Karnofsky Speaker 2: [inaudible].Speaker 4: Thank you for listening to spectrum. We are happy to hear from listeners. If you have comments about the show, please send them to us via email. [00:29:30] Our email address is spectrum dot k l x@yahoo.com join us in two weeks at the same time. [inaudible]. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Discuss the first Farsi immersion pre-school in the country, located in West Berkeley, which runs as a non-profit and also has outreach programs to help other communities create similar schoolsTRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:You're listening toK , a l x Berkeley 90.7 FM university and community sponsored radio. And this is method to the madness and show from the public affairs department at Calex that explores the innovative spirit of the bay area. And we're always happy to see data about the bay area because we love it. So we want to understand it more. And of course the 2010 census data just came out and I thought, I read you a few statistics that are interesting about [00:00:30] our diversity. We have three and a half million white people in the bay area. That's a slim majority, 52% congratulations to you. 1.2 million Asians, 1.3 million Hispanic, half million black and a million didn't change of the rest of us. The rest of the world population all thrown together here and experimenting with the American dream for many barrier residents whose families immigrated relatively recently. The challenge of adapting to [00:01:00] America while preserving a link to your heritage is a tricky task. But one local woman has made it her mission to create a new model for how to pass culture down to future generations. Please stay with us to hear her story. And uh, today we have with us [inaudible] y'all, them and Deb are from Gulistan kids, a preschool in west Berkeley as the first preschool of its type in, is it the country? Yeah, in the country. It's a Farsi immersion program. So welcome y'all to thank you. [00:01:30] And so y'all know, we'd like to start off the program about, um, talking through the problem statement. So you, you kind of came to this realization that there was a problem and you wanted to start, you started a nonprofit to solve the problem. So give us the problem statement. Speaker 2:Well, it happened organically actually. Um, I had my first child. Um, I am married to an American man and I live in Berkeley and I don't have any local family prisons speaking [00:02:00] family. So I um, uh, I was working, um, but after a while it was hard to manage working and I needed childcare for him and I couldn't find anybody. I couldn't find the daycare, school nanny, I was looking everywhere. So they are out there, the nannies. But um, I put a posting in the Berkeley parents network listserv here and um, the only other person that responded was another parent looking for the same thing. Speaker 1:And you were looking for a Persian speaking to any, [00:02:30] is that right? Speaker 2:Anything, any type of childcare that would be person speaking. Okay. I asked, you know, I said and nanny, daycare, co-op preschool, anything. And that was the only response I got. So she told me why I'm looking for the same thing. Will you share with me what you find? And um, we ended up meeting and from there started a playgroup. Um, and the people in that playgroup, they are all looking for the same thing. They, and basically what we was support [00:03:00] and teaching our children our language and passing down our culture. I think we all lived in this sort of vacuum. We didn't really know many run INS locally with kids. And um, and from there it became the subtle, uh, regular weekly gathering and then it became a co op and had a life of its own, but we weren't even incorporated yet. Speaker 1:So, um, a lot of the, I consider you an entrepreneur, right? Really you're really starting a new thing from scratch and a lot of the entrepreneurs that we speak with on the show have this moment [00:03:30] of inspiration where you mentioned you kind of had competing professional things in your life and you had to make this choice that how did did, was there this moment, this magical moment where like, yes, this is what I'm going to do because that's a big cliff to leave leap off of. Right? Speaker 2:Yeah. No, it sounds crazy as far as I can remember. I don't think there was a magical moment. I think it really did take a life of its own by the time, by the time that I, we made this [00:04:00] decision because we did it as a group. I wasn't the only one involved. We had that playgroup, original playgroup was very involved in the co op. Um, but by the time we got to that juncture, um, I was working my butt off and I had a newborn child and I was just in survival mode basically. Um, and it was really, I got to a place where I had to make a decision, which one did I have to stop either my work or the school and I couldn't give up [00:04:30] to school because I felt like it was too important. We were all really intertwined in it. By that point, our kids were just really thriving and w they began to have strong identities as Iranians. And it was amazing. It had exceeded all of our expectations in terms of the impact that it had on our kids. Speaker 1:Now, one of the things that I think is really unique about it is that you are, you're teaching your kids Iranian culture, but you guys all [00:05:00] were born and raised here or raised here. You're mostly American, right? So you're first generation, is that they're right? Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Some of us have lived there a little bit. Most of us. It depends. We have a little bit of everything. Yeah. Some of us lived here our whole lives. Speaker 1:Okay. So you all had this very strong desire to teach. And was it Iranian culture or was it Farsi? What was the act? Was it the language mostly? Speaker 2:I think for me it was the language and I think it was more than that. [00:05:30] It wasn't even, it was about our kids, but it was a lot. It was about us too. It was, you know, when you, as you know, when you have a child, um, especially for young mothers, but for both parents it's very isolating. And so here you are in this phase in your life where you feel very isolated. You're just, it's a whole other world that you'd send this little bubble and you're already feeling a little bit uprooted before you have children, when you're by cultural, but then you have a kid and you're just like, what? Where [00:06:00] do I belong in this world? So I think it gave us a sense of, of rootedness or you know, gave us some, some like a place where we, we could connect with people that were similar. Speaker 2:So that was as a, from a parent's perspective, um, and for kids, I think it was more about language. I think so. I mean language and culture are really very intertwined as well. Very connected. Um, this original playgroup was [00:06:30] meeting, were you guys meeting in the same place every time? We are meeting weekly in a park, so you'll see the natural progression. We'd meet weekly in a park and then the rays, rainy season started and they're like, well, what are we going to do now? We didn't want to stop. So we contacted the person center, one of our founders, um, her sister was involved with the pre one of the founders of the person center in Berkeley and they let us use their space. I went to a week and then we were like, well this is great. But I personally, I was like, well, I still need the childcare. Speaker 2:This [00:07:00] is really fun. But you know, so we brought in a teacher and then the parent would rotate with the teacher and then eventually brought in a teacher's aide who's actually still with us now. And um, and then we made a daily, a daily program is starting to rent the space of the person center and then we outgrew the person center very quickly. My kids were there when you guys were just at the Persian center. We had, I think about eight different kids had different schedules. So I think we're about eight to 10 kids total that were involved. [00:07:30] Um, but we had a waiting list at that point. We weren't even anything, you know, word of mouth. People found out about it. Yeah. Yeah. And then even then people would email me and ask me, people from other cities would ask me if there was anything similar in their area. Speaker 2:And that's when I did the research. I found out there wasn't anything anywhere. And very early on as we decided to take it to the next level, it was clear that we needed to help [00:08:00] other people create some of the programs because they were coming to me for advice and guidance. And I, I didn't want to turn anybody away. Um, so when we were filing our five, a one c three applications, we made that as part of our mission to help other communities and to be a resource for families, other schools and educators and communities to say, Oh, I want to talk about that a little bit later in the show. This is method to the madness [00:08:30] on KLX Berkeley 90.7 FM to university and community sponsored radio. Thanks for listening. My name's Eileen is art. And today we're interviewing Yalta Middelburg, executive director of Goldstone kids. And I wanted to ask, so you, um, you started to have these eight kids at the Persians Center and you did the research and found there's not really any program like the one you're trying to create. So the next step I would guess would be to create a curriculum. Speaker 1:Is that right? So how, how do you go about creating [00:09:00] one out of thin air? Speaker 2:Well, we did everything all at once. Um, there were a lot of moving pieces at the time. First we had to find, um, well actually when we're at the Persian center, the curriculum was very teacher directed, um, because we didn't have a big picture in mind. But then when we moved into our current building, we started to, once we started to settle in more, we started to develop a much more rich curriculum that was, [00:09:30] you know, just much more developed. And now it's actually quite unique and, and um, robust, I guess I don't know what the right word is, but, uh, so to answer your question, there were, it wasn't like, you know, let's sit down and tackle the curriculum. It was, okay, we got to fill the space. We've got to fill now. We had extra space, we had to get more kids, we have to figure out scheduling and, um, how are we going to deal with invoicing and, um, of the logistics that go [00:10:00] behind running a nonprofit and all the logistics of running a preschool program. Speaker 2:Um, and an afterschool program. We're not just a preschool, but also an after school program. That was starting then because some of our founding kids were going to kindergarten. Um, and so in the beginning it was just sort of winging it, but then as things started to settle in the school, then we could really put our, a lot of work can do it. And it's, um, it was a collaborative process with the teachers and, [00:10:30] um, various teachers in various stages of our development. And now it's almost complete. Like we run on an annual, um, we have an annual curriculum and it's a monthly theme, and though it's going to continue to evolve and become richer, it's pretty much set. We've, we, we came back full circle in September, so that's great. Now we're repeating. That's wonderful. So what are some of the themes? Like what do you guys go over with the kids? So we start, [00:11:00] um, in September we start with me, myself and my community. And then, and October it's me and my body. And so unit on health and hygiene and your senses as well. Um, and then in November, it's, um, different careers and vocations and how they relate to community. Then we move on just in December, we take a little bit of break and we talk about seasons [00:11:30] and holidays and cultures. Um, and we have a Speaker 1:all, is it all [inaudible] like, um, it related to Persian culture or how you're, it's just, you're talking about you're teaching the kids. He's are, and what ages are the kids? It's Speaker 2:so the kids are two to five in the preschool program. And then after school we use the same themes for the whole school. After school it goes up to fourth, fifth grade. So you're teaching a kid some universal things that they need to understand, but it's all in Farsi. [00:12:00] Right? That on the same sentence. This is Farsi English. But um, to answer your question about culture, uh, we do have a social cultural day on Fridays for the morning programs where we learn. Um, we basically teach them about one culture every week. It's actually, we used to do it just basically pick a culture out of a hat, um, every week. And then it felt like they didn't have much context. They learn about Japan and then France next week. So now it's uh, [00:12:30] over a two month period we cover one continent and every week on Fridays they're, their food relates to that culture, the projects that they have that they relate to that culture so that they have an idea of the whole world. Speaker 2:So what I tell people is that this is a program that's um, that's like if you imagine your ideal preschool or afterschool program, whatever it is, it's just ideal program that just happens to be in Persian. It's not, the focus is not teaching kids Persian. They happen [00:13:00] to learn it just by being there and being immersed in it. Yeah. And to that point, you guys have non Persian children who are now attending or on the wait list, is that right? Yes. Yeah, we do. We do. We can't bring them in all at once because when you've children who don't respond in Persian, then the, it affects the dynamic of the class. So we bring in a few at a time, one at a time per class. So you sorted out with eight kids in the playgroup, the person center, and now you guys have evolved to, [00:13:30] uh, how many kids? Speaker 2:We've over 55 55 kids and you no longer in the prison center now and we have a waiting list to 2014. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. School's good business. If you can figure out that it's actually, you know, people say that. And I do think with, uh, with a more traditional model it can be, but with our model, it's actually not, we operate at a deficit every month. Um, and the reason being [00:14:00] is that in order to ensure that the children are fully immersed in Persian and they're not all speaking English all the time, we have a really low teacher rated child to teacher ratio. So our staffing costs are much higher than any other school. What is the ratio? It's one to three for toddlers and one to four for preschoolers and for afterschool kids, which kind of, what's the standard ratios for preschoolers? Preschool is going [00:14:30] to be one to four to windows eight. And, um, oh, preschool one to four is actually very rare. Sorry, toddlers, it's one wonderful. Anyway, um, for preschoolers legally one to 12, but I think most people, it's about one to eight. For most schools when to 10, they'll have like a class of 20, sometimes with two teachers. Speaker 1:Wow. So the reason that you do that is, and the reason that you've, you're configured as a nonprofit, which is, that's unique in their preschool [00:15:00] world, right? Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. There are some there. It's not rare, but it is, it's not, it's not the most common. Speaker 1:And what's the reason that there's a, there's a, there's a vision behind it, right? Speaker 2:Yeah. The couple of reasons. One is that, um, I wanted all the decisions that were made for the organ, for the school to be based on what's best for the school and not to be, um, [00:15:30] influenced by, by profit. Uh, the other, um, is that I wanted the school to become, um, lasting organization that if I were to leave, that it would come, it would still be here. And, um, and also I'm just not a business person, wasn't my thing. But, uh, and, and also, um, practically speaking, knowing that we were going to have a deficit, we'd need to fundraise and it would be very difficult to do that as a for profit [00:16:00] organization. We thought we figured that out after we made the decision to be a nonprofit. Speaker 1:And you were planning the deputy because you wanted the load ratios to be able to get the kids to speak for us. Yeah. Yeah. You're listening to k a l x Berkeley 90.7 FM streaming on the worldwide web a k alx.berkeley.edu. This is method to the madness I show from the Public Affairs Department of Calyx that explores the innovative spirit of the bay area. I'm your host Ali Nasar and that was an old [00:16:30] Iranian folk song by the name of you who are like the long moon in the sky. And I played that because today we're talking to Yeldon Metabo, the executive director of Gulistan kids, the first Farsi immersion program for preschoolers in America located in west Berkeley. Back to our conversation. And uh, I wanted to ask you about, um, some success stories. So you see all sorts of kids coming in with varying levels of [00:17:00] exposure to Farsi. Right. Can you share maybe a story or two of, of kids who have come in and really, cause you know, everybody always says, oh, kids are sponges at that age. You tried it, you see that? Speaker 2:Oh yeah. Yeah, they are. Yeah. Um, boy, I wouldn't know which one the [inaudible] there's one in particular that stands out. Um, is actually a college friend of mine has, uh, three kids. [00:17:30] Yeah. Three kids and lives in Pleasanton, Pleasanton and has two older girls. I think they are about seven or seven and nine, something like that at the time. And a little boy who, Amir, who is, who was five at the time. And uh, he's to a Tunisian woman, adorable, wonderful woman who, who's learned to speak prison and their kids didn't speak Persian. Um, I think the older girls understood a little bit, [00:18:00] but then really not a lot. And uh, at one point my friend was like, this is, this is like our only chance we gotta get these kids to learn Persian. And so I told them, well, bring Amir here. It was his last year of preschool and I'm your did not understand a word. Speaker 2:I'm like, you would just need to say hello. How are you to him? Any kind of like, yeah, I have this look on his face. I'm such a sweet boy too. So he, he uh, he decided, okay, we're going to do, I was like, if you [00:18:30] do it, he has to come here a lot to get full exposure. So they made the commitment and they drove to Berkeley from Pleasanton every day and he worked in the South Bay. So it was a, it was insane for them, was hard. And they had two older girls that were in school in pleasant and we'd get out of school, right, like half an hour before I'm here, we'd get out of school. There's a lot of driving involved. Um, within a month I'm your understood everything. And then within, by the time the second month ended, he [00:19:00] was fluent and he was with us his whole last year of preschool. And by the time he left, he was just this totally fluent kid. And one day Allie came to my office and um, he just, he came in and he just just choked up and teared up and he's like, it's changed our relationship. I was like, I told you, but it did. It was just changed the dynamic of their relationship because they connected in a different way. It was really special. Speaker 1:Yeah. That's what's so special about what you're doing is that, um, [00:19:30] you know, people who speak multiple languages understand that there's concepts that can be talked about, ideas that can be talked about in another tongue that you can't really talk about it in English. This is different level of connection. It's not just cause English is lacking. It's every language has its own words. It's culture. That's true. I never thought of it that way. Um, and so I think one thing that's I wanted to talk about with you is that you have a program as part of goalless on kids or it's separate and um, [00:20:00] organization, the Colab, Speaker 2:it's part of the same organization, but it's like a, it's a department, I guess you would. Speaker 1:Yeah. So a part of your organization that is dedicated to helping other communities and not just Persian, Farsi, speaking communities, anybody, anyone embraced this idea of, of creating immersion programs, preschool immersion programs. So talk to us a little bit about the, the Colab, Speaker 2:the colab. We used to call it the resource center and people [00:20:30] weren't apparently the resource center and just do and doing it for anybody. So we did a little bit of brainstorming and came up with the name, the heritage language collaborative and it's exactly what that is. It's, it's collaborating with people, be they families or other or communities who want to promote their heritage language in the next generation of kids. Um, so we work with families with any background. I just worked with an Taiwanese [00:21:00] family and helping them maintain the bilingual home in different, you know, that we all have different challenges in doing that and helping them overcome those challenges. And then working with educators of different immersion programs. Um, our hope is to host workshops for starting off with local immersion schools, but then eventually national schools and developing best practices, cause they don't really exist in that field. Speaker 2:[00:21:30] Excuse me. And it is an emerging field. And then finally working with other communities. Um, and that involves both helping other communities, start schools, be they small co-op programs all the way to like a real school, um, and also producing teaching materials and books and audio books and some music cds. And, um, so right now we're in the beginning phases. I've been doing this [00:22:00] work for the last three years that we've been in our new building and we became a nonprofit. Um, but it's been hard to do that and run the school and the afterschool program, um, and tried to keep a nonprofit afloat in this economy and have two kids. Speaker 1:Yeah. Yo, by the way, you have two kids. I do that too. Yeah. Um, so okay. My native tongue is Ooredoo. Okay. So let's say I came to you and I said I want to start or do language school. You refer to best [00:22:30] practices. What are like top three best practices for listeners out there? We hopefully have dozens and dozens of languages listening to us right now. So what are the best practices that you can give people? Just, just, you know, a few choice nuggets. Speaker 2:Well, as a parent I can, would you like to know as a parent? Sure. As a parent it would be to um, work, be consistent and um, enable your children to develop the muscles and the habits to [00:23:00] speak to you in your native tongue. Um, damn, one technique uses like a sang, it's called the sandwich method. If you have to use English, then you use your native tongue first than English than the native tongue. So if you, you're speaking about a ball and the child doesn't know what a ball means, you would say TUPE in person, ball, TUPE. And um, another one is to really prompt a child to respond to [00:23:30] you in that language. Um, if they insist on speaking English and they always, every child will get to a point where they'll want to speak English to their parent. Don't. My second child hasn't gotten to that yet. It's interesting. Um, you, you just have them keep repeating it and in my case in person and prompting them to repeat it and you just keep doing it over and over again until they do it sounds painful and terrible. And it sounds like you have a terrible relationship with your kids, but it's just, it's just [00:24:00] a little bit of effort. Like everything else in parenting that eventually becomes very natural and it's actually less work than if you were to be a little bit looser about it in the beginning. Less disciplined about it. Speaker 1:Okay. Good tips. Thank you. Um, so last question I have for you is, I love to ask this of innovators, entrepreneurs, what's the vision? So you're working real hard. It's been three years and you've come a long way. You 55 kids that you're, [00:24:30] you're giving this amazing experience too. So five years from now, what will it look like? And both from the Goldstone perspective but also from colab. Speaker 2:Well, in five years we will have helped build, why are we say 10 years, 10 schools? So not sure it's five years in five schools cause it's, yeah, 10 years is easier for the colab. Um, so yeah, we'd have schools [00:25:00] all over the country, not us personally, but there would be schools that we will have helped establish however we can through consulting and sending them materials. Thanks. Um, and we'd have books published, several books published and audio cds and music cds, and we'll have an annual workshop where we host people coming in from different parts of the country [00:25:30] and brainstorming together and the school, oh, I shouldn't even say this school. There are some, there been discussions and requests from parents and other educators talking to me about, um, starting a charter school k through eight. And I've been, you know, I, this, it was, it was a big, big challenge to get to where we are now. Speaker 2:My family paid a price for it and my [00:26:00] husband was very patient with me. Um, so it's, it's hard to say yes, but it's really hard to say no to. So we're, we're exploring that and my hope is that in 10 years we'll have a team that can do that. And I can help and we'd work, we'd collaborate and it could be a Gulistan school locally. Um, I'm not into having call stands outside of the local area, um, because it's hard to manage all of that. But yeah, maybe there'd be a k through eight school in Berkeley. Speaker 1:[00:26:30] I'd like to thank Yelderman Debra for being on the show today. To learn more about Gulistan, you'd go to Gulistan kids.com. That's g o l e s t a n kids.com. This has been method to the madness on care Berkeley 90.7 FM. You can learn more about us@methodtothemadness.org and to take us out today, we're going to let a kid from Goulston give us a little Persian nursery rhyme, said to Beethoven, oh, humans in life, be kind to each other here on [00:27:00] Kale x, Berkeley. Speaker 3:Bye. See you. Bye. [inaudible] mine. And I need that. [00:27:30] Bye guys. A need. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

In 1965 Prof. Zadeh published a paper titled Fuzzy Sets in the journal Information and Control. Fuzzy Set theory and Fuzzy Logic has been hailed as a brilliant addition to Set theory. Zadeh is Prof. Emeritus of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science at UC Berkeley.TranscriptSpeaker 1: [inaudible].Speaker 2: [00:00:30] Welcome to spectrum the science and technology show on k a l x Berkeley, a biweekly 30 minute program bringing you interviews featuring bay area scientists and technologists as well as a calendar of local events and news. Speaker 3: Hi, my name is Brad swift and I'm the host of today's show. Today's interview is with Professor Lutfi Zada. He is professor emeritus in the electrical engineering and Computer Science Department of the College of Engineering [00:01:00] at UC Berkeley. Professor Zada was trained as an electrical engineer at the University of Toronto where he received a bachelor's degree at MIT where he received a master's and Columbia University where he received a Ph d from 1950 to 1959 Zara was a member of the Department of Electrical Engineering at Columbia University. He joined the Department of electrical engineering at UC Berkeley in 1959 and served [00:01:30] as its chair from 1963 to 1968 during his tenure as chair, he played a key role in changing the name of the department from electrical engineering to electrical engineering, computer science or [inaudible]. In June, 1965 professor Zada published a paper titled Fuzzy Sets in the Journal Information and control. This paper formalized his seminal fuzzy set theory. In the years since fuzzy set theory and fuzzy logic has been hailed as a brilliant [00:02:00] addition to set theory. Speaker 3: The word fuzzy is used to characterize the imprecision and uncertainty of real world phenomena that the theory embraces. Essentially, a fuzzy set is a set whose members have degrees of membership within the range. Zero and one fuzzy set theory permits the gradual assessment of the membership of elements in a set. The membership is described by a value in the interval zero to one fuzzy logic is based on fuzzy set theory where [00:02:30] sets are approximate rather than fixed and exact how's he logic embraces the concept of partial truth where the truth value may range between completely true one and completely false zero. This interview is prerecorded and edited professors Oughta. Thank you very much for joining us on spectrum. It's my player. What do you think it was about being here at Berkeley that got you thinking about fuzzy logic [00:03:00] and the work that you then published? Right? Speaker 4: What did he see? What happened is that I have always been a strong believer in mathematics. I always believed that [inaudible] is solve all problems and simply, and that's what I've learned. You can [inaudible] if you cannot solve the problem with what, you know, learn more and then you go with the, so that was my fear. But then I began to feel that there is a disconnect between the precision of mathematics and the precision [00:03:30] of the real world. So I began to feel that way, uh, in 1960160260 three during sort of that period and my feeling that there is a problem grow in 1964 then when I was visiting New York, this idea occurred to me the same to do is to introduce the concept of a presence at the class, which [00:04:00] does not have sharp boundaries. So instead of talking about something being in a class or not being in a class, you're talking about degrees to which you are a member of a class, which seems to be a very natural sort of a thing. So what is surprising is this very simple national idea was not introduced in mathematics to some degree. It is amazing. There is multivariate logic and long [00:04:30] to validate logic. Truth is a matter of degree and fuzzy logic. Everything is a matter of degree. High geologic follows for, as you said, theater, everything is relative degree. So agenda of ideological is completely different from the agenda. [inaudible] Speaker 3: so do you consider yourself a creative thinker? Speaker 4: I think so, yes. I think this is [00:05:00] my strength. Yours and cut it up with original ideas. That's my sense. There are people who are smarter than I, but they were not creative. In other words, if we took exams, probably they do better, but somehow they are luck. This particular capability. Let's see. So what is something unusual? And I must pat myself on the back. Yes. The people at my [00:05:30] age, you know, I turned 19 continue to do something and tell them, I said we won't get to being a certain kind of environment that allows me to do that. I wrote my first paper [inaudible] 1965 at that time I was chair of the department and we had, I was on editorial boards. I had recognition. I submitted a paper publication during use. We're look for them. [00:06:00] If I were not a member of, they told you the board of that journal. Speaker 4: It wasn't getting turned down but I said, man, I thought of Kirsten. See they published. Know that paper by 1965 paper is the highest side that they put in that journal to NJ 6,000 citations. The next highest cited paper that it still 1,010 times more. Yeah. If a paper has 200 200 citation, that's considered to be [00:06:30] respectable in Europe I think they would be promoted to full professorship. You need at least 50 citations. A many people don't realize that. Yesterday I gave a lecture, he wished there was a little discussion of physiologic and the number of papers with fuzzy in title I or somebody who knows nothing about physiologic. I said, your perception, how many papers you guys are children [00:07:00] have Pfizer entitled because I said was 14 and he is a professor. He was a lecturer. Another suit. I asked somebody else. 50 okay, what is the correct number? 245,000 that's a lot. 245,000 papers with Pfizer and title. That's not something that's as black and white, either some title or southern title. [00:07:30] See how many patterns? 33,000 patterns relate to Pfizer here it's a little bit of question isn't related or unrelated to what degree? This is the picture, so it shows you the degree to which competent people can misunderstand something. So we send the people to reviewers presumably who know a lot and then they say this is piece of nonsense, garbage, whatever, whatever, whatever.Speaker 3: Is this the conservative [00:08:00] nature of the math world and people in mathematics that they're very conservative. They don't want to embrace a new idea, like fuzzy logic. I just Speaker 4: have difficulty in the, unless you're very much in the spirit of what's being done. Let me see if it's very much in the spirit of waste being done. No problems. So if you have four color problem, one pheromones, serum and you prove it, no problem. But if you come up with some [00:08:30] new rules, something, something, something you may have a problem. So at the same thing got placed in music and many other things usic in particular, you know, if you can pull something that is in the spirit of what's been too great but usually a couple of something it's completely different. People would throw to later say to you, which was I happened in music, you know, mineral service here. People like that, you know, very [00:09:00] they told on music this music that you write music is a good example of the situation which uh, which outage or now I'd say of in a certain sense gets you in trouble. Speaker 3: You are listening to k a l x Berkeley. We are talking with professor and Lucky Zada the creator of fuzzy set theory and fuzzy logic. Fuzzy logic [00:09:30] found its niche in industrial controllers. It was jump-started by a Cillian and Mandani in 1974 with their fuzzy linguistic algorithm to control the steam edge. The fuzzy vacation of industrial controllers took off cement kilns and Denmark subway trains in Sendai City, Japan, elevators, consumer products like cam quarters washing machines, back home cleaners and cars. Professor Zada attributes the success of fuzzy algorithms [00:10:00] to two concepts. He introduced linguistic variables and fuzzy if then rules. The hierarchy of a linguistic variable can be described as follows. Page can be a linguistic variable. Age is made up of, for example, three fuzzy sets named very young, young and old. The membership function. Each of these sets is mapped onto a numerical scale of values. In this case zero to 100 [00:10:30] years old. Each data element can be then tested for its degree of set membership. The higher the degree associated with an element in a given set, the more reliable the membership. The importance of this concept is how widely linguistic variables can be applied to problems. If you can describe what it is you want to know or how you want a system to behave, you can build a linguistic algorithm and compute. Speaker 4: But [00:11:00] the, and let me explain why there were so many applications. So I wrote my first paper in 1965 in 1973 I wrote the paper. Yeah, we're trying to use the concept but of a linguistic variable. It didn't really sit variable. And that's why I say key concept. It's a variable whose values itself. Wars. Humans use it all the time. Talk about age. [00:11:30] You can't use numbers one, two, three, four, five. But you can use words young, not young, very young, more or less young, old, not very old village. People use boards instead of numbers. That's the point. So I caught a variable like that linguistic variable, the variables whose values are words, but those words are enablers of pleasure sets. So when [00:12:00] you say town, it is a fight. He said, if I just said it's associated with memories, your function, that means that given that particular height, you could tell it to one degree is the person who that uh, is a member of the class of thought that this is because members, your firms. Speaker 4: So then we seek malleable. It's not just something that takes those matters. He was do that, but he was do not associate, [00:12:30] but your sets with the value. That's a big difference. But once you are associated for, as he said, you can compute with those of sets. And that turned out to be a key Isaiah because there you could program in natural language. So in that people in 1973 feet, I introduce [00:13:00] two basic concepts. One was the kinds of linguistic credible and the other one the Christ. I'm still fuzzy if they're in the room today, the 95% of our application for your logic, use those two pencils and you'll begin to see why it's easier to use natural language and medication. If I asked you how do you park your car, you could [00:13:30] explain it as a natural language, but if I asked you to do it using numbers, you can do it. Speaker 4: I said if you all were there, so many fears, then you wrangling so much, then turn the WM by 70 degrees. Nobody can do that, but people can use words. So you take words and associate those labels with them and then you execute. So people find that they can solve many problems. [00:14:00] A good example is balancing the worth, inverted pendulum stick. So it 10 year old gun, right? The rules. If this angle is low, Marcela's increasing, then give it a big push to traditionary to solve the problem. People use control theater. There are differential equations. They do that not near, not necessarily a 10 year old can solve the problem. Speaker 3: When you were [00:14:30] developing your fuzzy set theory, where are you collaborating with anybody at all? At the university? Speaker 4: Nothing really. I've never been much of a collaborator. That's the way I function. So I've always been like, I'm not saying that this is a good thing. I, I'm pointing to myself as a role model, but I to I think is the opposite. I think students enjoy working closely with a supervisor, [00:15:00] but somehow I was felt more comfortable doing things [inaudible] Speaker 3: do you think your education in some, some manner helps you become more creole? Speaker 4: One of the major with, I went through the systems. Yeah. The which uh, the emphasis was on not that money, but on, uh, education and being a good student. A good relationship [00:15:30] with your professors. It was a very and very wholesome environment. I consider myself to be lucky in that I went through that kind of an environment friendly, friendly and later at the mic and uh, also at Columbia I was also in an environment that does not exist today. Unfortunately today we have money centric environment. Everything revolves [00:16:00] around money. That was not the case when I was a student at MIT when I was a student. Professors didn't know what his demeanor to go for grants, a Washington proposal late in the worries man today, unless you bring some money, they treat you like a piece of dirt. I find it very disconcerting that young people today are brought [00:16:30] up in daddy's where they're told, look, if you don't manage to get money, we will not advance you to tell you. So they have to kill themselves to try to get money. But even what they say when the wars is that the people who tell these young people, unless you got money, we want to advance your team. They know that those young people will not succeed, but they will be able then fire them at some point and [00:17:00] replace them with another cheap and naive young person they see. Right. Speaker 3: Do you see the same sort of tension between publishing and teaching historically in education? Speaker 4: Well, this has always been the case. You know, publish or perish, but they says nothing money, a centricity. This is some other century city. Speaker 3: Well, it sort of goes to the core values of the institution. Is it more important to teach or is it more important to publish? [00:17:30] Well, Speaker 4: it depends. It depends. Of course institutions. I would put Berkeley right at the very top in terms of a enlightened approach to these issues. If I lost all of my money, as I said, there was not big [inaudible] to a small thing. I was 93 days when I get this of dirt, I would be some of the places and if I did not publish and they saying, but I did some good work, I would [00:18:00] still be treated with respect. I may not get promoted that rapidly, but in other places I'm a stereo there that unfortunately these changes have not been for the better and I am very, very anti money. Three city, I see the evil effects a bit all over the place and I'll see in other countries [inaudible] Speaker 3: you are listening to k a l x Berkeley. We are talking with Professor Lockney Zada, [00:18:30] the creator of Fuzzy set theory and fuzzy logic. Lutfi Zada feels that computing with words can have an impact in fields like biology, medicine and the humanities where conventional mathematical and analytical methods are ill-suited by combining fuzzy logic with other techniques like neural networks, evolutionary computing, machine learning, and probabilistic reasoning. A new kind of computing can be realized. This week it was announced that professors on was inducted into [00:19:00] the artificial intelligence hall of fame launched by the I Tripoli Intelligent Systems magazine. Speaker 4: Do you enjoy the teaching? Yes, very much so. I've always enjoyed teaching now and let's see, I do on myself to be very lucky in that what I like to do and what I had to do were almost always coincident. Now some parts of teaching. Uh, I cannot say that [00:19:30] I like that much. For example, grading, homeworks, grading exams, you don't know, but that's the price that you have to pay. But if somebody asked me what you likes to do something else and not one microsecond, and this is wonderful though, Speaker 3: is there a part of mathematics that you find most intriguing other than what you've focused on Speaker 4: that sort of inspired you? [inaudible] and I think it [00:20:00] is really important. I think it's really important. It has to do with the capability of mathematics to solve computational problems, which are stated in a natural language. So usually when you find a problem in some books on this and then you, no bunch of numbers there, you, when this and this and this one, there is something else. Okay, that's typical problem. But suppose [00:20:30] that you have a property movies instead of numbers, you have words can mathematics. So problems of this kind. That's a question. My answer to that. My contention is no traditional mathematics cannot solve. I know you have simple problems and they give it to people who have been chasing mathematics, going some books on mathematics and we to books and this and that. They cannot solve it. Let me give you a very simple example. Speaker 4: Probably [00:21:00] John is tall. What is the probability that Johnny is short? Not One person has been able to come up with their mathematical solution. People use come and say as they say something but they cannot come with a mathematical solution. So what I have done and what I call computing with words opens that door. You added two mathematics, traditional mathematics [00:21:30] and that mathematics plus computing many words has the capability to solve problems which are stated in action. I think that this is an important capability and what is particularly striking to me is that the only system today computational system or system of computation that has that capability is fuzzy logic based computer with [00:22:00] words. So he will have mathematics, cannot solve problems which are state national language and yet it's quite obvious there are many in the real world, real vibe. There are many problems like that, but people usually solve them using sort of common sense. See, but they cannot be solved mathematically. So I feel that, uh, this is not widely recognized as yet, but I'm beginning to talk about it and beginning [00:22:30] to write about it. Speaker 5: Well, professors Oughta, thank you very much for spending this time with us Speaker 4: in the forgiven. Protect me as an opportunity to vent my views. As you can see, I express myself, uh, somewhat strongly and if I offend somebody, please accept my apology. But they tell me something about the Brahms browns had the sharp down, he was leaving a [00:23:00] party and he had the, I said, we're thinking the point he says, if there is anybody in here who I have not offended, please accept my oppose. [inaudible] Speaker 1: [inaudible]Speaker 5: a regular feature of spectrum just to mention [00:23:30] a few of the science and technology events happening locally over the next few weeks. Here's Rick Karnofsky today August 26 from 2:00 PM to 3:00 PM professor Elliot Lab with no pitch of the ECS department and the director of the Center for energy efficient electronic science. Well present, searching for the millivolt switch. Moore's law predicts smaller components leading to increased energy efficiency. Well, while wires can operate at very low voltages, current transistors can not can the transistors be replaced with new low voltage switches [00:24:00] that are matched to the fine low voltage wires. Visit the Hearst memorial mining building room three 90 today at 2:00 PM to find out the community resources for science or the crs are having a founder celebration Sunday, August 28th from four to 6:30 PM at cliff bar and company 1451 66th street in Emeryville. Crs gives practical support for it. Great Science Teaching to get kids excited about science. Dr Peter h Glick is the co founder and president of the [inaudible] Speaker 1: [00:24:30] [inaudible]. Speaker 5: It's about their experience in East Bay classrooms. Tickets are $25 for students and teachers or $40 for the general public visit. Founder of celebration, 2000 eleven.eventbrite.com for tickets on Thursday September 8th [00:25:00] from seven to 9:00 PM they called you center at five three zero San Pablo Avenue near Dwight in Berkeley. Associate a free lecture. It is entitled from auto cities to Eco cities. Examples from around the globe, they'll discuss city design from around the world. That favor is walking, cycling, and public transit. The presentation will be followed by an interactive session based on an evolving Eco city framework under development by the ECO city builders and an international advisory committee. Visit Ecology center.org for more info. [00:25:30] The exploratorium after dark is an evening series four 18 and over is that mixes, cocktails, conversation and playful, innovative science and art events. It happens the first Thursday of the month from six to 10:00 PM after dark is included in the general admission price, which is $15 for adults. Speaker 5: The theme for September 1st after dark is music and creativity. Explore unique musical instruments made by local artists. Soon came and hear Indian classical music performed by Dr Perrin, Georgia, who research is connections between music [00:26:00] and creativity as the head of the music intelligence group at the Georgia Tech Center for music technology. He'll also share his work on the creation of new technologies for musical self-expression and then you're all basis for musical emotion and the cognitive underpinnings of musical experience. Visit exploratorium.edu for more info now, two new stories, David Lipkit and Chris Todd Hettinger and other researchers right in the August 22nd issue of the proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences that they have discovered a strain of yeast and Patagonia [00:26:30] that they believe is one of the parents of the modern day lager yeast. Saccharomyces pastoral Arianna's loggers are brewed at 39 to 48 degrees Fahrenheit. The style is believed to have originated in Germany in the 15th century because low winter temperatures prevent contamination. Speaker 5: However, most Fridays of the common Ailey's sacrum IC survey see are active at higher temperatures. 59 to 77 degrees Fahrenheit. Lager, you started domesticated hybrid of the Ale yeast with a cold resistant species. The researcher's notes that the draft [00:27:00] genome sequence of the newly discovered yeast sacrifices you be honest, is 99.5% identical to the Non Ale east portion of the lager yeast genome. The journal Science reports that white researchers are nearly twice as likely as blacks to win grants from the National Institutes of health or the NIH, NIH director Francis Collins notes that she is deeply dismayed and has said that this is simply unacceptable, that there are differences in success that can't be explained. Between 2000 and 2006 [00:27:30] 29% of white applicants received funding, but only 16% of black researchers did. Hispanic and Asian scientists had approximately the same success ratio as white researchers, particularly after correcting for nationality and past research record. While reviewers do not have direct information on the race and ethnicity of applicants, it can be inferred from names and biographies. The bias seems to rise early in the [inaudible] process and the NIH is striving to find measures that will eliminate it by drawing on more minority reviewers and possibly helping applicants with their grant writing. [00:28:00] Hmm. Speaker 1: [inaudible] editing assistance from Judith White Marceline production assistants, Rick Karnofsky, the music heard during the show is from Elliston at David album entitled folk and Acoustical. Thank you for listening to spectrum. If you have comments about the show, [00:28:30] please send them to us via email. Our email address is spectrum dot k o x@yahoo.com join us in two weeks at this same time. [inaudible]. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Interviewed founder of Urban Adamah, a non-profit that is combining Judaism and sustainability to feed the poor of West BerkeleyTRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Okay. Speaker 2:[inaudible] [00:00:30] the great American experiment, the seemingly endless stretch of shops and stories from every corner of the earth. Speaker 3:A place where everyone is trying to carve out their precious plot of the free, if you can afford it, world. And a place that I call home, many people don't realize the San Pebble Avenue is actually a highway, California one two three to be exact, running parallel to East Bay, interstate 80 and a main link between the peoples of the East Bay, the Berkeley [00:01:00] portion of California one two three has been a hot topic over the last two years because it's part of the East Bay Green corridor and there's been many battles. And then Berkeley City Council about the zoning rights to west Berkeley [inaudible] as west Berkeley land owners sit tight waiting for resolution. One Entrepreneurial Organization is taking advantage of vacant land and creating a model for spirituality, sustainability, and a solution to the urban food desert. Today on method to the madness, we interview [00:01:30] Adam Berman, executive director of urban Altima in west Berkeley. Stay with us. [inaudible] Speaker 4:tell me a little bit about how you came to this idea. Yeah. Um, I've always been interested in the intersection of spirituality and environmental stewardship. Um, I grew up in a Jewish household, uh, outside [00:02:00] of Los Angeles, uh, and went to Jewish day school as a kid. And so as soon as I, um, reached adulthood, I started asking questions of Jewish tradition about how it relates to the natural world, um, how questions of social and environmental justice fit in with the practice of Jewish tradition and how Jewish tradition itself can be, uh, supportive of living a lifestyle that is reflective of as much of my environmental and social [00:02:30] values. Uh, and it turns out Judaism has a rich tradition, uh, that teaches us about caring for the Earth, um, about caring for others. Um, and in fact, if you look at it's 2000 year old history, most of the time Jews were agriculturalists. Speaker 4:So we were much more connected to the land than we are today. So for me, the integration of growing food sustainably and being an activists [00:03:00] and, uh, being someone who feels connected to Jewish tradition and part of Jewish community, part of the Jewish community feels like a seamless integration in my life. Um, my whole professional career the last 20 years has, uh, been spent in work that, uh, connects Jewish tradition and environmental stewardship. Um, my first job out of college was the director of a place called the Tebow learning center, uh, which teaches the connection between Judaism and [00:03:30] the environment, uh, to fifth and sixth graders on four day residential retreats. Uh, in New England. It's a hands on ecology, uh, program where they explore the woods, um, and learn about how Jewish tradition, uh, blessings, holidays, food, um, our awareness about how we treat others, um, all are supportive and uh, cultivate a kind of consciousness. Um, that's more, that helps us become more loving in [00:04:00] the world, which is how I understand Jewish tradition to serve me and human beings. And the tradition is a, uh, agrarian society. Um, and but dot. Kind of doesn't come to the forefront when you think about Judaism. So are you having to reinvent some of these things or is it just going back into the history and bringing them out into, to a modern day interpretation? Right? Speaker 4:What's consistent about Judaism over [00:04:30] time as far as I can tell, is our core values. What are these core values? Our core values are [inaudible], which means justice. Uh, our core values, our headset, which means compassion. Uh, we have a core value of off of Ahava, which means love. And in every generation, the Jewish communities challenge is to interpret or apply those values to whatever the, whatever reality is presenting itself. And the 21st century, we have a food system that, uh, [00:05:00] you know, is producing a billion people that are overweight and a billion people that are starving every year, um, that is producing food deserts in Oakland and in cities across the country. While there's abundance beyond belief just a few miles away, um, we look at that reality and say, you know, this is the place where we want to apply these values. So it also happens that Jewish tradition in terms of ritual and practice is very connected to the natural world. So that's a very interesting [00:05:30] and curious thing to investigate. But the motivation for this project is much more about applying Jewish traditions, core values to a pressing need that we see in the world right now, which is how do we grow food in ways that are sustainable in ways that respect the earth and in ways that provide healthy food to people who don't have access to it. You're listening to KALX Berkeley 90.7. This is method Speaker 3:to the madness. A 30 minute show about the [00:06:00] innovative spirit of the bay area. I'm your host, Darlene Izar, and we're speaking with Adam Berman, executive director of Urban Adamah, a farm that's sprouted up on San Pablo Avenue in west Berkeley. [inaudible] Speaker 4:okay, well let's talk a little bit about the project. Yeah. So how did you come to the idea, where did it start? Give me a little bit of the timeline of it. So, uh, urban, our demise is actually the successor to, um, a project called [inaudible] on demand means earth. By the way. [00:06:30] Um, and I founded this project called [inaudible] in Connecticut in 2001 and I Dima is a leadership training program. It still exists, uh, for young adults in their 20s that integrates organic farming, Jewish learning and leadership training. Um, to date, there are about 200 alumni from this program in Connecticut at still continues. It's a, it's housed at a place called the Isabella Freedman Jewish retreat center. Uh, and alumni of the program are doing amazing work in the world, both in the Jewish [00:07:00] community and in the secular world, uh, bringing their consciousness around environmental stewardship and spirituality wherever they go. Speaker 4:Uh, in 2009, I left Isabella Freedman and the [inaudible] of my fellowship and I took the sabbatical from the world of work for about a year. Um, and you, when that year ended, um, it was really clear to me that what I wanted to do next in my life was sort of create sort of [00:07:30] Adama 2.0 sort of an enhanced version of the first project. It was clear to me that the demand was there. Uh, we had 50 or 60 applicants for 12 spaces in the program each season. Um, and the impact that the fellows were having on the world, uh, Jewish and non Jewish world was tremendous. So it was clear to me that that's where the, there was a need there. Um, and there was an impact that could be made. And then there were three and as I sat with this question of how do I create the next version of other ma, um, there were three things [00:08:00] that came to my mind, uh, that informed how I wanted the new project to be different. Speaker 4:Um, the first one was where it would be located. Um, I'd demand Connecticut is two and a half hours outside of New York City, three hours from Boston. It's an hour and a half from the closest urban area. So may be a couple of hundred people visited the farm every year. And I knew that if we could bring our Dama to an urban area, thousands of people could be touched by the experience of the farm. And the farm that we have here in, in, [00:08:30] in west Berkeley is in fact an environmental education center for the whole community. We've already had, um, over a thousand people visiting the farm in just a few months that we'd been open. So the first difference between [inaudible] and urban on Dima is the rural versus urban nature of the project. The second aspect of the project that is different and that was really important to me was the social justice aspect of it. Speaker 4:You know, in Connecticut, the fellows, the program learn how to grow food sustainably and they learn about the dysfunctional system that we're part [00:09:00] of in terms of the agriculture that we're producing in this country. Um, but it's one thing to learn about food and to eat it yourself. Uh, and it's another thing entirely to grow food sustainably and give it all away. Uh, at Urban Adema here we give 90% of the food that we grow. Uh, we give it away. Right now we're giving it to the, um, covenant, uh, the Covenant Tree Church, uh, ministry, which is next door to the farm in west Berkeley. And also to the long life, uh, community health clinic, which runs a soup kitchen, [00:09:30] um, a food bank rather, uh, on Mondays and Tuesdays every week. Um, and so we're giving it away to people in need. A Jewish tradition has this notion of it's a DACA which says that 10% of what you own doesn't actually belong to you. Speaker 4:In our case, we're doing sort of reverse to DACA and we're giving away 90% of it. And so the fellows who are growing food to give it away are also spending one day a week volunteering with local nonprofits who are working at the intersection of poverty [00:10:00] and food security. So that was sort of the second piece was the social justice piece that's being manifested both in what we're doing with the food and also how the fellows are spending their time. They're not only growing food on the site and teaching on the site, but they're also volunteering at places like city slicker farms, people's grocery, Berkeley youth alternatives, all organizations that are working at that intersection, the intersection of poverty and food issues. The third, um, way that urban undermine is different from [inaudible] is that we're really designing it to be, um, [00:10:30] uh, I, what's the word? Speaker 4:Um, uh, replicable. Uh, we're designing urban Nevada to be replicable, um, where a standardizing a curriculum where I'm being pretty meticulous with documenting everything that we do. And our hope is that we have urban on demand in other cities and coming years. Um, our farm strategy is based on finding vacant land that we can use temporarily for a minimum of two years. The entire infrastructure [00:11:00] of the farm is designed to be taken down and moved with us and there are millions of empty lots all over this country, um, that are just sitting there. Uh, and if we can figure out a relatively low cost way to grow food and create community on these vacant lots, it would be a huge gift, uh, in our opinion both to the Jewish world and to the world at large was really interesting. So, um, you're talking about, you know, low, uh, ranked for these lots that obviously this is a nonprofit, [00:11:30] right? Speaker 4:Correct. So from an economics perspective, is it all donor based or uh, yes. The, the land strategy depends on getting land donated or virtually donated. So our land in Berkeley here is being donated by Wareham Development. That's giving us a use of the land for at least two years, possibly three. Um, and our sense is that there are, you know, there doesn't have to be a lot. There has to be some, uh, landowners out there who are in between development and would love to see their land at no cost to [00:12:00] them use for a public good like this. You know, what did you be a little concerned, not to be controversial or anything, but about, um, getting of Covenant Church or these types of places, giving them a lot of food, but all of a sudden, you know, your lease runs out, you can't really predict what's gonna happen next and what happens if they, you know, they get used to the food that you're going to give them. Speaker 4:Right. Uh, it's a good point. Um, I'd like to think that we'd be able to give them a lot of warning. The food that we're giving them now is supplementing food that they're buying, uh, for their, [00:12:30] for their dinners on Saturday nights. So right now we're, we're hopefully saving them money by supplying them food that's probably also better quality than the food that they're buying. Um, and I think that we'll know at least a year in advance when we're going to have to leave this site. Um, it's also true that there's a lot of empty vacant land in west Berkeley, so if we have to move from this site and two or three years, I'm hoping that we'll find another spot in the same community. This is method to the madness. A 30 minute show about the innovative spirit of the [00:13:00] bay area. You can hear this show on KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM every other Friday at noon. Speaker 4:And today we're speaking with Adam Berman, executive director and founder of Urban Dima, a urban farm that has sprouted up on San Pablo Avenue in west Berkeley in the last few months. Um, I was reading on your website about this, these age old Jewish traditions you mentioned. Um, so one of them will, these laws, um, I'm probably [00:13:30] not gonna pronounce it right. Bald Tasha Ball. Tasha elite. Volatize sweet. It's definitely, yeah. So that's a really interesting concept. That's really a big thing today. Can you talk a little bit about that? Huh. Um, well, the, the concept of [inaudible] comes from the book of Deuteronomy and there's actually a line in the book of Deuteronomy that says, if you are in battle against a city and there are fruit trees surrounding the walls of the city, even if you could help, [00:14:00] it could help you win the war by cutting down the trees at the entrance to the city, you're not allowed to touch the trees. Speaker 4:You gotta leave him there. And from that one line in the Torah, um, many rabbis and others have come up with, uh, an interpretation of what that would mean today. And at it, at its core and ball Tash cleats means don't destroy or interpreted by some is don't waste. So if we think in some ways that the challenge of [00:14:30] humanity in the 21st century with regards to the environment is how can we use our resources much more efficiently and much more intelligently? This notion of [inaudible], which is don't waste them, don't destroy, sort of fits right in. And if we were going to say, um, how would we make, you know, most of us aren't going around sieging cities and we don't have the question, you know, should I cut this tree down or should I? But in every moment we have the choice about whether or not we can use things efficiently. Uh, whether or not we're wasteful [00:15:00] choices that we make about our own consumption. I mean, they're, they're everywhere. Um, and so looking at those, this law ball Tash cleat is just one example of, you know, the Jewish community today, taking age old concepts and applying them to a 21st century ability and making that meaningful. Speaker 3:Yeah. Which is so innovative and interesting about your project. A, another one of these laws was Shmittah Speaker 4:should we shmita what's that one all about? Shimmy tie, [00:15:30] um, is a law that, uh, like many sort of Jewish environmental concepts come from the era when we were all farmers and Shmita um, is based in this understanding that the land doesn't belong to us. It's very native American in that sense. Um, and Shmita says that at the end of six years you have to let your land completely lie fallow. Insertive consistent with modern principles of organic farming. [00:16:00] There's something wise, uh, and the organic [inaudible] organic practices teach us about letting our land rest and having rotating crop cycles. Um, you know, Jewish tradition at came up with this idea of Shmita years ago basically saying you let the land rest because the land does not belong to you. It belongs to God. That was the traditional understanding of it. Um, it also happens that it makes the land more fertile. [00:16:30] So it's this beautiful notion where, again, old meets new, where a traditional understanding of something that has to do with how we relate to the creator of all life is ultra also a practice that helps sustain our inhabiting of the land and using it to sustain us. Speaker 3:Yeah, that's really fascinating concept about you're looking at these old traditions are I think, um, um, Michael pay, Pailin, pollen, Paul and Michael Pollan, the, uh, the [00:17:00] author has food rules, but yeah. Or, or you went around the world and looked at all these kind of traditional rules for food and tried to solicited for them on the Internet and found, uh, that a lot of those rules are even better than modern day in nutritional science. Cause they're just some, there's something to it. That's why he's lasted so long and that, yeah, and the consciousness of those peoples who follow those traditions, it's really fascinating. I'm one more la wanted to ask about was um, Speaker 4:[00:17:30] ah, man, these pronunciations, you would show it to me. Well, I think a p e a h [inaudible] [inaudible]. Yeah. So pay, ah, uh, literally means corner. And there is a law in the book of Leviticus that says, when you, uh, harvest your fields, you have to lead, leave the corner of your field for the poor. Over time that's been interpreted to also mean that 10% of what you earn and what you collect. [00:18:00] So if you're not a farmer, 10% of what you earn actually you have to leave for the poor. It doesn't actually belong to you. So there's this notion that in the days when we were all farmers, we don't know how big these corners were, but there were some part of the field that poor people in the town who didn't have food knew that they could go and collect. Um, and we're trying to model that actually at the urban [inaudible] farm in west Berkeley. Speaker 4:Uh, we have a tent called the Payette tent at the corner of our farm. And the idea is once we're producing enough food that on [00:18:30] one day a week we'll actually put food there and working with local social service agencies, let folks know that they can actually come and take food from the pay a corner. And it will also be a food bank as well for local people to bring cans of food and other dried goods. So it'll be a sort of a food bank that's onsite at the farm. And that's what you were referring to before is going to flipping. You're doing 90%. Exactly though, the 10% exactly. Okay, great. And what about the last one is this one will definitely not get Sar and belie a [00:19:00] m sire by allay high game. Okay. So it literally means, um, the prevention of the suffering of animals. Speaker 4:Um, and there are bunch of laws in the old testament that all have to do with how we treat animals. Um, you're not allowed to tie an ox and a donkey together if you're plowing your field because they are both have different levels of strength and it's inhumane to tie them both to the [00:19:30] same tool that's helping you plow your field. Um, you're not allowed to feed yourself before you feed your animals. Um, you're not allowed to take the egg of a mother bird. Um, if the mother bird is watching. So there's this whole list of, of Old Testament laws that collectively are called Sar by like high IEM. And we look at it today and we say, well, if we were going to take Sar by Liam seriously today, what would that mean in terms of our own treatment of animals [00:20:00] and our own consumption of animals? Speaker 4:What would it look like if we're raising chickens on our farm? What kind of space would we give them? What would we feed them? Um, if we're buying food for ourselves, what is preventing the cruelty and the suffering of animals today? Can we buy factory farm meat and say that we're following this notion of [inaudible]? So these are, this is something again, that we're struck, that we're engaging with and looking at and trying to say, how are we going to make this meaningful in the 21st century, given the reality that we're facing? [00:20:30] You're listening to KALX Berkeley, [inaudible] 90.7 FM. This is method to the madness, a 30 minute show about the innovative spirit of the bay area and I'm your host holding his arm. We expect to grow six to 7,000 pounds of food, um, this year that, you know, 90% of of which will be given away. Speaker 4:But really urban on demoss contribution, um, to the world is, it's in, is in its education and in its leadership training. Um, there are three [00:21:00] cohorts of 20 somethings that live in a house a few blocks from the farm communally and engage in a curriculum that combines, uh, urban organic farming where they're actually working on the farm, teaching on the farm to members of the community about the work that we're doing, uh, and living and engaging, uh, in, um, and, and sort of learning and approach to Jewish tradition that resonates [00:21:30] with our core values and supports them and becoming JJ agents in the world. And we have three cohorts a year, so it's 36 fellows, uh, and our hope is that they're going to go out in the world and do great things. Um, and I think that's, uh, probably our biggest contribution along with the interaction that we have with the thousands of visitors that will be coming to the farm and what they will take away from the experience. Speaker 4:And you also do camps, right? Yeah, we run out, we run a summer camp program, uh, in [00:22:00] partnership with several different, uh, bay area organizations. Uh, and we're also going to be running a program called Hebrew school on the farm in partnership with a couple of synagogues in the area. We'll be bringing their students to us regularly throughout the fall. Okay. And is there a particular, um, sect or form of Judaism that you're practicing there and there isn't? Um, we're trained denominational. Um, this summer we're running summer camps in partnership with, uh, the g the Jewish community center, uh, [00:22:30] which is, uh, I think by definition a nonreligious institution, um, and really appeals to folks who don't consider themselves, um, very traditional Jewishly. Uh, and we're also running a program with congregation Beth Israel, which is the, um, Hologic or Orthodox synagogue in Berkeley. And so I think that, um, Jews and non Jews are hope, feel comfortable at urban, on Dima. Speaker 4:Uh, we will be running programs [00:23:00] hopefully in partnership with the ecology center moving forward. The don't actually have any Jewish content that are just open to the public, uh, programs that deal with urban, sustainable agriculture. Um, and we'll, our hope is also this fall, we'll be running programs for kids in the community that aren't connected to Jewish organizations who are just interested in coming to the farm and learning what the farm has to teach them. This is a method to the madness on KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM and we're speaking with Adam Berman, executive director of urban automa. What [00:23:30] is the vision? So if you look out five years from now and you're, this is something you created out of your brain, this show is very much about innovators and we interview innovation across a wide spectrum of disciplines. Um, and I always like to ask this Speaker 3:question because it came from your brain. Where do you see it going in five years? If you could wave a magic wand and have it be exactly what you would want it to be, what would it be? Yeah. Um, Speaker 4:my hope is that there would be urban od dima farms in many [00:24:00] communities throughout this country. Five years from now, I'd like to see us in four cities. I'd like to see, uh, the urban [inaudible] fellowship become a rite of passage for hundreds of young adults every year. And I would like to see the alumni of the fellowship out in the world planting their seeds and bringing how they interpret sat deck has said and Ahava just stick justice, compassion, and love into the world in ways that resonates with their own visions. So the first [00:24:30] circle is the circle of the fellows. The second circle in terms of the vision is what happens in the Jewish community where these farms exist. My hope is that the Jewish communities, wherever the urban [inaudible] farms exist, find joy, relevancy, meeting connection as part of their urban Adam experience. Whether or not they're sending their kids for a day long program or they're sending their kids for a three week summer program. Speaker 4:My hope is that the farms enriched Jewish communal life wherever they find themselves. And then [00:25:00] the third circle of impact is in the larger world, forget about the Jewish community. My hope is that urban ended, my farms are producing tens of thousands of pounds of food that are going to people in need wherever the cities find themselves. My hope is that urban had to, my farms are a bridge between the Jewish community and the non-Jewish can be wherever they find themselves. Our food. The land is this common language is this common resource that connects us all and for urban out of our [inaudible] farmers to be a place where people come together regardless, [00:25:30] or religion or ethnicity, to grow, food, to eat, to celebrate, to sing. That's my greatest hope for what urban Audubon can be in the world. Speaker 3:Wow. Well, hopefully we'll get there. It sounds like a, you've got the passion to make it happen. If people want to learn more about it, uh, how should they get in touch with you? Www urban onto [inaudible] dot org my email is Adam at urban adamah at demise a d a m a h. Dot. Org. I look to thank Adam for coming [00:26:00] on the show today and wish him the best of luck and Urban Altima you've been listening to. Method to the madness. 30 minutes. Share about the innovative spirit of the bay area. You can learn more about our show, a method to the madness.org have a great Friday. Everyone. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.