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2 episodes with project include
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For a special series of episodes that will air throughout the year, Tech Policy Press fellow Anika Collier Navaroli is hosting a series of discussions intended to help us imagine possible futures—for tech and tech policy, for democracy, and society—beyond the moment we are in. Dubbed Through to Thriving, the first episode in the series features a discussion on how to build community and solidarity with Ellen Pao, currently the co-founder of a nonprofit called Project Include, which focuses on advancing diversity and inclusion in the tech sector. Previously, Pao was the interim CEO of Reddit and a venture capitalist.
Local and national advocacy organizations are suing Immigration and Customs Enforcement alleging illegal arrests, a coalition of Southeast Side neighbors is pushing back on Chicago's future Quantum Campus, and we've got thoughts on Lolla's lineup. Joining us to break it all down are Katrina Pham from Borderless Magazine and Maxwell Evans from Block Club Chicago. Plus, we're dropping our 1,000 things we love about Chicago on Monday, and we've got some live music to add to your calendars. Good News: JWF Amp'd Up Open Mic Series Want some more City Cast Chicago news? Then make sure to sign up for our Hey Chicago newsletter. Follow us @citycastchicago You can also text us or leave a voicemail at: 773 780-0246 Learn more about the sponsors of this March 21 episode: Moats Entertainment Babbel - Get up to 60% off at Babbel.com/CITYCAST Become a member of City Cast Chicago. Interested in advertising with City Cast? Find more info HERE
Tech's “meritocracy” is broken—Ellen Pao unpacks how to fix it. Alright, let's get real—tech's so-called “meritocracy” is doing more harm than good, and it's time to face it head-on. This week we're bringing you an episode of the Radical Respect podcast. Kim and Wesley sit down with Ellen Pao, founder of Project Include, to dig into how the industry's obsession with merit often masks deep-seated bias, exclusion, and outright harassment. Ellen doesn't hold back as she breaks down why quick fixes (we see you, generic unconscious bias training) just don't cut it, how unchecked bias erodes trust and psychological safety across teams, and the way Project Include is leading the charge with real strategies for change. From CEOs stepping up to own their role in DEI to addressing the messy realities of AI in the workplace, this conversation is all about building environments where everyone has a shot. Ellen's story is packed with takeaways for anyone who's struggled to balance compassion with calling out the tough stuff, and is ready to challenge the status quo and build workplaces where it's better to have a hole than an asshole. Get all of the show notes at RadicalCandor.com/podcast. Episode Links: Project Include Data & Society — Ellen Pao @ekp.bsky.social on Bluesky Reset: My Fight for Inclusion and Lasting Change Connect: Website Instagram TikTok LinkedIn YouTube Chapters: (00:00:00) IntroductionKim and Wesley introduce Ellen Pao, founder of Project Include.(00:01:37) The Genesis of Project IncludeHow Project Include started and its impact on improving workplace inclusivity.(00:05:25) Challenges of Virtual WorkspacesThe increase in bias and harassment in virtual work environments. (00:06:38) Meritocracy and the Tech IndustryThe role of meritocracy in shaping tech's culture and DEI challenges.(00:09:24) Overcoming Resistance to DEIData-backed methods for fostering DEI support among skeptics.(00:13:46) DEI as a Business ImperativeThe importance of CEO involvement in creating and sustaining DEI initiatives.(00:19:50) Balancing Morality and Market PressureHow leaders can make ethical decisions that align with DEI principles.(00:25:31) Governing AI in the WorkplaceKey considerations for ethical and inclusive AI adoption in workplaces.(00:28:33) Social Media's Role in Amplifying HarmThe need for accountability in curbing online hate and misinformation.(00:37:26) Impactful Investments in DEI-Focused VenturesStories of innovative ventures improving equity in healthcare and workplaces.(00:41:27) Conclusion Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Kim and Wesley welcome entrepreneur, investor and author, Ellen Pao. They talk about what inspired Ellen and her co-founders to start Project Include nearly 10 years ago. Historically, many firms have some sort of "bias busting" training session and then feel as though they have checked the box on this complicated topic. It has become especially challenging in recent years with notable pushback against diversity initiatives. The good news is there are still organizations that see it as a strategic advantage to their company's performance. Ellen points out how critical it is to get CEO ownership from the get go. Many diversity initiatives fail because it is delegated to a mid-level staff person who is not empowered to make any changes. So as a starting point, Project Include, will not engage with a company unless the CEO attends the planning meetings. One early effect they noticed was many CEOs feel pressure to "know everything about everything" and yet most knew very little about how to run a successful diversity program. So, part of the CEO coaching and buy in is to get them comfortable at not being the expert in this particular area. They would push CEOs to evaluate their diversity efforts as any other business project: What is working well and what is not, who is on the team, what are their metrics, what tools are they using, etc. Then, use this information to adjust as necessary. About Ellen Pao:Ellen Pao is the treasurer of the board of directors at Data & Society. She is the former CEO of reddit and the co-founder and CEO of the award-winning diversity, equity, and inclusion nonprofit Project Include. A long-time entrepreneur and investor, she is the former chief diversity and inclusion officer at the Kapor Center and a former venture capitalist for Kleiner Perkins and Kapor Capital. Her 2017 memoir, Reset: My Fight for Inclusion and Lasting Change, was shortlisted for the Financial Times and Mckinsey Business Book Of The Year.https://www.ellenkpao.com/
It’s a rare issue that can bring the political parties together in Congress, and the need to regulate social media companies ranks high on that very short list. Two industry veterans want Congress to create an agency that sets safety and privacy rules for platforms — and enforces them. The status quo, they argue, is like letting airlines fly without Federal Aviation Administration oversight. The idea comes from Anika Collier Navaroli and Ellen Pao. Pao, an attorney and now CEO of Project Include, pushed to ban revenge porn on Reddit during her tenure as interim CEO. Navaroli, an attorney and senior fellow at Columbia Graduate School of Journalism, was involved in Twitter’s decision to ban former President Donald Trump from the platform in 2021, when she was a senior policy expert there. Marketplace’s Lily Jamali spoke with Navaroli and Pao about their proposal.
It’s a rare issue that can bring the political parties together in Congress, and the need to regulate social media companies ranks high on that very short list. Two industry veterans want Congress to create an agency that sets safety and privacy rules for platforms — and enforces them. The status quo, they argue, is like letting airlines fly without Federal Aviation Administration oversight. The idea comes from Anika Collier Navaroli and Ellen Pao. Pao, an attorney and now CEO of Project Include, pushed to ban revenge porn on Reddit during her tenure as interim CEO. Navaroli, an attorney and senior fellow at Columbia Graduate School of Journalism, was involved in Twitter’s decision to ban former President Donald Trump from the platform in 2021, when she was a senior policy expert there. Marketplace’s Lily Jamali spoke with Navaroli and Pao about their proposal.
It’s a rare issue that can bring the political parties together in Congress, and the need to regulate social media companies ranks high on that very short list. Two industry veterans want Congress to create an agency that sets safety and privacy rules for platforms — and enforces them. The status quo, they argue, is like letting airlines fly without Federal Aviation Administration oversight. The idea comes from Anika Collier Navaroli and Ellen Pao. Pao, an attorney and now CEO of Project Include, pushed to ban revenge porn on Reddit during her tenure as interim CEO. Navaroli, an attorney and senior fellow at Columbia Graduate School of Journalism, was involved in Twitter’s decision to ban former President Donald Trump from the platform in 2021, when she was a senior policy expert there. Marketplace’s Lily Jamali spoke with Navaroli and Pao about their proposal.
There's no such thing as a bias-free workplace. According to Kim Scott, leaders must proactively look for and root out bias, prejudice, and bullying in the workplace. Rather than waiting for these behaviors to escalate into harmful situations, she advocates for a shared commitment in your organization to dismantle bias, prejudice, and bullying head-on as it arises. Kim Scott is a co-founder and the renowned bestselling author of the books ‘Radical Candor' and ‘Radical Respect.' She has been a CEO coach at renowned tech companies like Dropbox, Qualtrics, and Twitter. Before her coaching career, Kim was a faculty member at Apple University and led the AdSense, YouTube, and DoubleClick teams at Google. In the first episode of season two, Kim Scott discusses the importance of creating conditions for your employees to do their best work. Reflecting on her own experience, Kim candidly shares the invaluable lessons gained from early leadership missteps, including failing to be an upstander for marginalized women and overlooking her own biases and prejudices. Sharing insights from her newly revamped book ‘Radical Respect,' Kim offers practical strategies for leaders to recognize and address bias, prejudice, and bullying in the workplace. She emphasizes the need for establishing a shared vocabulary, norm, and commitment across your organization to publicly address bias, whether in remote or in-person work settings. Finally, Kim explains the business case for addressing bias and bullying, as diverse workforces perform better and retaining diverse talent is crucial for success. Tune in to discover Kim's tactical and effective strategies for fostering a culture of radical respect in your organization! And don't forget to pre-order Kim's latest book Radical Respect, coming out on May 7, 2024. . . . Like this episode? Be sure to leave a ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ review and share the podcast with your colleagues. . . . TIME-STAMPED SHOW NOTES: [04:36] Restructuring ‘Just Work' into ‘Radical Respect' [10:16] Distinguishing between bias, prejudice, and bullying [18:13] Disrupting bullying without overstepping [23:14] Preventing bias and prejudice in the workplace [26:55] Creating a shared commitment to disrupting bias [33:35] Communicating standards in ways people can hear them [39:49] The business case for addressing bias and bullying [44:37] Kim's underrated leadership advice
Baselode Energy CEO James Sykes joined Steve Darling from Proactive to provide an update on the drilling program at the Hook Project, with a specific focus on the high-grade uranium zone known as ACKIO. The company has allocated a total of 10,000 meters for the drilling program, with 7,500 meters dedicated to delineation and expansion diamond drilling on ACKIO, and 2,500 meters allocated for reconnaissance exploration in a key location. Sykes informed Proactive that Hole AK23-095, drilled at the ACKIO target, has yielded impressive results. It ranks as the fourth-best drill hole in terms of total radioactivity, with a reading of 1,019 counts per second (cps) over a 35.75-meter interval starting at a depth of 36 meters. The initial holes of the program primarily focused on infill and definition drilling of Pods 4 and 5. Hole AK23-095, on the other hand, was specifically designed for the delineation and expansion drilling of Pods 1, 2, and 7. Notably, Pod 7 remains open to the west, indicating the potential for further mineralization. With 15 drill holes completed thus far in the program, Baselode Energy continues to make significant progress in understanding the geological characteristics of the ACKIO high-grade uranium zone. The company's focus on delineation and expansion drilling aims to enhance the understanding of the mineralized pods and their potential for resource growth. The drilling program at the Hook Project demonstrates Baselode Energy's commitment to advancing the exploration and development of high-grade uranium deposits. Through systematic exploration and the evaluation of drilling results, the company is working towards establishing the project's resource potential and unlocking further value for shareholders. #proactiveinvestors #baselodeenergycorp #tsxv #find #otcqb #bsenf #mining #uranium #invest #investing #investment #investor #stockmarket #stocks #stock #stockmarketnews
Ellen Pao is the co-founder and CEO of Project Include as well as the former CEO of Reddit.Part of [ending online harassment] is just having a backbone. As a leader, just saying: “The people who are using my product and who are creating all the content, they actually matter to me. And I don't want them to be abused. I don't want them to be harassed.” It's not that hard to make that change.Notes and references from this episode: @ekp - Ellen Pao on Twitter Project Include - home page “The Reddit Revolt That Led to Ellen Pao's Resignation,” - by Alex Abad-Santos, Vox“Adam Neumann's $350 million comeback is a ‘slap in the face' to female founders and founders of color,” by Emma Hinchcliff and Paige McGlauflin“Jada Pinkett Smith and Ellen Pao - Red Table Talk” - YouTubeNotes and references from this episode: @ekp - Ellen Pao on Twitter Project Include - home page “The Reddit Revolt That Led to Ellen Pao's Resignation,” - by Alex Abad-Santos, Vox“Adam Neumann's $350 million comeback is a ‘slap in the face' to female founders and founders of color,” by Emma Hinchcliff and Paige McGlauflin“Jada Pinkett Smith and Ellen Pao - Red Table Talk” - YouTube===== Produced, hosted and edited by Stu VanAirsdaleTheme music: Sounds SupremeTwitter: @WhatCaliforniaSubstack newsletter: whatiscalifornia.substack.comEmail: hello@whatiscalifornia.comPlease subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you liked What is California?, please rate and review What is California? on Apple Podcasts! It helps new listeners find the show.
About AnilAnil Dash is the CEO of Glitch, the friendly developer community where coders collaborate to create and share millions of web apps. He is a recognized advocate for more ethical tech through his work as an entrepreneur and writer. He serves as a board member for organizations like the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the leading nonprofit defending digital privacy and expression, Data & Society Research Institute, which researches the cutting edge of tech's impact on society, and The Markup, the nonprofit investigative newsroom that pushes for tech accountability. Dash was an advisor to the Obama White House's Office of Digital Strategy, served for a decade on the board of Stack Overflow, the world's largest community for coders, and today advises key startups and non-profits including the Lower East Side Girls Club, Medium, The Human Utility, DonorsChoose and Project Include.As a writer and artist, Dash has been a contributing editor and monthly columnist for Wired, written for publications like The Atlantic and Businessweek, co-created one of the first implementations of the blockchain technology now known as NFTs, had his works exhibited in the New Museum of Contemporary Art, and collaborated with Hamilton creator Lin-Manuel Miranda on one of the most popular Spotify playlists of 2018. Dash has also been a keynote speaker and guest in a broad range of media ranging from the Obama Foundation Summit to SXSW to Desus and Mero's late-night show.Links: Glitch: https://glitch.com Web.dev: https://web.dev Glitch Twitter: https://twitter.com/glitch Anil Dash Twitter: https://twitter.com/anildash TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: It seems like there is a new security breach every day. Are you confident that an old SSH key, or a shared admin account, isn't going to come back and bite you? If not, check out Teleport. Teleport is the easiest, most secure way to access all of your infrastructure. The open source Teleport Access Plane consolidates everything you need for secure access to your Linux and Windows servers—and I assure you there is no third option there. Kubernetes clusters, databases, and internal applications like AWS Management Console, Yankins, GitLab, Grafana, Jupyter Notebooks, and more. Teleport's unique approach is not only more secure, it also improves developer productivity. To learn more visit: goteleport.com. And not, that is not me telling you to go away, it is: goteleport.com.Corey: It seems like there is a new security breach every day. Are you confident that an old SSH key, or a shared admin account, isn't going to come back and bite you? If not, check out Teleport. Teleport is the easiest, most secure way to access all of your infrastructure. The open source Teleport Access Plane consolidates everything you need for secure access to your Linux and Windows servers—and I assure you there is no third option there. Kubernetes clusters, databases, and internal applications like AWS Management Console, Yankins, GitLab, Grafana, Jupyter Notebooks, and more. Teleport's unique approach is not only more secure, it also improves developer productivity. To learn more visit: goteleport.com. And not, that is not me telling you to go away, it is: goteleport.com.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Redis, the company behind the incredibly popular open source database that is not the bind DNS server. If you're tired of managing open source Redis on your own, or you're using one of the vanilla cloud caching services, these folks have you covered with the go to manage Redis service for global caching and primary database capabilities; Redis Enterprise. To learn more and deploy not only a cache but a single operational data platform for one Redis experience, visit redis.com/hero. Thats r-e-d-i-s.com/hero. And my thanks to my friends at Redis for sponsoring my ridiculous non-sense. Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Today's guest is a little bit off the beaten path from the cloud infrastructure types I generally drag, kicking and screaming, onto the show. If we take a look at the ecosystem and where it's going, it's clear that in the future, not everyone who wants to build a business, or a tool, or even an application is going to necessarily spring fully-formed into the world from the forehead of some God, knowing how to code. And oh, “I'm going to go to a boot camp for four months to learn how to do it first,” is increasingly untenable. I don't know if you would call it low-code or not. But that's how it feels. My guest today is Anil Dash, CEO of Glitch. Anil, thank you for joining me.Anil: Thanks so much for having me.Corey: So, let's get the important stuff out of the way first, since I have a long-standing history of mispronouncing the company Twitch as ‘Twetch,' I should probably do the same thing here. So, what is Gletch? And what does it do?Anil: Glitch is, at its simplest, a tool that lets you build a full-stack app in your web browser in about 30 seconds. And, you know, for your community, your audience, it's also this ability to create and deploy code instantly on a full-stack server with no concern for deploy, or DevOps, or provisioning a container, or any of those sort of concerns. And what it is for the users is, honestly, a community. They're like, “I looked at this app that was on Glitch; I thought it was cool; I could do what we call [remixing 00:02:03].” Which is to kind of fork that app, a running app, make a couple edits, and all of a sudden live at a real URL on the web, my app is running with exactly what I built. And that's something that has been—I think, just captured a lot of people's imagination to now where they've built over 12 or 15 million apps on the platform.Corey: You describe it somewhat differently than I would, and given that I tend to assume that people who create and run successful businesses don't generally tend to do it without thought, I'm not quite, I guess, insufferable enough to figure out, “Oh, well, I thought about this for ten seconds, therefore I've solved a business problem that you have been needling at for years.” But when I look at Glitch, I would describe it as something different than the way that you describe it. I would call it a web-based IDE for low-code applications and whatnot, and you never talk about it that way. Everything I can see there describes it talks about friendly creators, and community tied to it. Why is that?Anil: You're not wrong from the conventional technologist's point of view. I—sufficient vintage; I was coding in Visual Basic back in the '90s and if you squint, you can see that influence on Glitch today. And so I don't reject that description, but part of it is about the audience we're speaking to, which is sort of a next generation of creators. And I think importantly, that's not just age, right, but that could be demographic, that can be just sort of culturally, wherever you're at. And what we look at is who's making the most interesting stuff on the internet and in the industry, and they tend to be grounded in broader culture, whether they're on, you know, Instagram, or TikTok, or, you know, whatever kind of influencer, you want to point at—YouTube.And those folks, they think of themselves as creators first and they think of themselves as participating in the community first and then the tool sort of follow. And I think one of the things that's really striking is, if you look at—we'll take YouTube as an example because everyone's pretty familiar with it—they have a YouTube Creator Studio. And it is a very rich and deep tool. It does more than, you know, you would have had iMovie, or Final Cut Pro doing, you know, 10 or 15 years ago, incredibly advanced stuff. And those [unintelligible 00:04:07] use it every day, but nobody goes to YouTube and says, “This is a cloud-based nonlinear editor for video production, and we target cinematographers.” And if they did, they would actually narrow their audience and they would limit what their impact is on the world.And so similarly, I think we look at that for Glitch where the social object, the central thing that people organize around a Glitch is an app, not code. And that's this really kind of deep and profound idea, which is that everybody can understand an app. Everybody has an idea for an app. You know, even the person who's, “Ah, I'm not technical,” or, “I'm not really into technology,” they're like, “But you know what? If I could make an app, I would make this.”And so we think a lot about that creative impulse. And the funny thing is, that is a common thread between somebody that literally just got on the internet for the first time and somebody who has been doing cloud deploys for as long as there's been a cloud to deploy to, or somebody has been coding for decades. No matter who you are, you have that place that is starting from what's the experience I want to build, the app I want to build? And so I think that's where there's that framing. But it's also been really useful, in that if you're trying to make a better IDE in the cloud and a better text editor, and there are multiple trillion-dollar companies that [laugh] are creating products in that category, I don't think you're going to win. On the other hand, if you say, “This is more fun, and cooler, and has a better design, and feels better,” I think we could absolutely win in a walk away compared to trillion-dollar companies trying to be cool.Corey: I think that this is an area that has a few players in it could definitely stand to benefit by having more there. My big fear is not that AWS is going to launch stuff in your space and drive you out of business; I think that is a somewhat naive approach. I'm more concerned that they're going to try to launch something in your space, give it a dumb name, fail that market and appropriately, not understand who it's for and set the entire idea back five years. That is, in some cases, it seems like their modus operandi for an awful lot of new markets.Anil: Yeah, I mean, that's not an uncommon problem in any category that's sort of community driven. So, you know, back in the day, I worked on building blogging tools at the beginning of this, sort of, social media era, and we worried about that a lot. We had built some of the first early tools, Movable Type, and TypePad, and these were what were used to launch, like, Gawker and Huffington Post and all the, sort of, big early sites. And we had been doing it a couple years—and then at that time, major player—AOL came in, and they launched their own AOL blog service, and we were, you know, quaking in our boots. I remember just being kind of like, pit in your stomach, “Oh, my gosh. This is going to devastate the category.”And as it turns out, people were smart, and they have taste, and they can tell. And the domain that we're in is not one that is about raw computing power or raw resources that you can bring to bear so much as it is about can you get people to connect together, collaborate together, and feel like they're in a place where they want to make something and they want to share it with other people? And I mean, we've never done a single bit of advertising for Glitch. There's never been any paid acquisition. There's never done any of those things. And we go up against, broadly in the space, people that have billboards and they buy out all the ads of the airport and, you know, all the other kind of things we see—Corey: And they do the typical enterprise thing where they spend untold millions in acquiring the real estate to advertise on, and then about 50 cents on the message, from the looks of it. It's, wow, you go to all this trouble and expense to get something in front of me, and after all of that to get my attention, you don't have anything interesting to say?Anil: Right.Corey: [crosstalk 00:07:40] inverse of that.Anil: [crosstalk 00:07:41] it doesn't work.Corey: Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's brand awareness. I love that game. Ugh.Anil: I was a CIO, and not once in my life did I ever make a purchasing decision based on who was sponsoring a golf tournament. It never happened, right? Like, I never made a call on a database platform because of a poster that was up at, you know, San Jose Airport. And so I think that's this thing that developers in particular, have really good BS filters, and you can sort of see through.Corey: What I have heard about the airport advertising space—and I but a humble cloud economist; I don't know if this is necessarily accurate or not—but if you have a company like Accenture, for example, that advertises on airport billboards, they don't even bother to list their website. If you go to their website, it turns out that there's no shopping cart function. I cannot add ‘one consulting' to my cart and make a purchase.Anil: “Ten pounds of consult, please.”Corey: Right? I feel like the primary purpose there might very well be that when someone presents to your board and says, “All right, we've had this conversation with Accenture.” The response is not, “Who?” It's a brand awareness play, on some level. That said, you say you don't do a bunch traditional advertising, but honestly, I feel like you advertise—more successfully—than I do at The Duckbill Group, just by virtue of having a personality running the company, in your case.Now, your platform is for the moment, slightly larger than mine, but that's okay,k I have ambition and a tenuous grasp of reality and I'm absolutely going to get there one of these days. But there is something to be said for someone who has a track record of doing interesting things and saying interesting things, pulling a, “This is what I do and this is how I do it.” It almost becomes a personality-led marketing effort to some degree, doesn't it?Anil: I'm a little mindful of that, right, where I think—so a little bit of context and history: Glitch as a company is actually 20 years old. The product is only a few years old, but we were formerly called Fog Creek Software, co-founded by Joel Spolsky who a lot of folks will know from back in the day as Joel on Software blog, was extremely influential. And that company, under leadership of Joel and his co-founder Michael Pryor spun out Stack Overflow, they spun out Trello. He had created, you know, countless products over the years so, like, their technical and business acumen is off the charts.And you know, I was on the board of Stack Overflow from, really, those first days and until just recently when they sold, and you know, you get this insight into not just how do you build a developer community that is incredibly valuable, but also has a place in the ecosystem that is unique and persists over time. And I think that's something that was very, very instructive. And so when it came in to lead Glitch I, we had already been a company with a, sort of, visible founder. Joel was as well known as a programmer as it got in the world?Corey: Oh, yes.Anil: And my public visibility is different, right? I, you know, I was a working coder for many years, but I don't think that's what people see me on social media has. And so I think, I've been very mindful where, like, I'm thrilled to use the platform I have to amplify what was created on a Glitch. But what I note is it's always, “This person made this thing. This person made this app and it had this impact, and it got these results, or made this difference for them.”And that's such a different thing than—I don't ever talk about, “We added syntax highlighting in the IDE and the editor in the browser.” It's just never it right. And I think there are people that—I love that work. I mean, I love having that conversation with our team, but I think that's sort of the difference is my enthusiasm is, like, people are making stuff and it's cool. And that sort of is my lens on the whole world.You know, somebody makes whatever a great song, a great film, like, these are all things that are exciting. And the Glitch community's creations sort of feel that way. And also, we have other visible people on the team. I think of our sort of Head of Community, Jenn Schiffer, who's a very well known developer and her right. And you know, tons of people have read her writing and seen her talks over the years.And she and I talk about this stuff; I think she sort of feels the same way, which is, she's like, “If I were, you know, being hired by some cloud platform to show the latest primitives that they've deployed behind an API,” she's like, “I'd be miserable. Like, I don't want to do that in the world.” And I sort of feel the same way. But if you say, “This person who never imagined they would make an app that would have this kind of impact.” And they're going to, I think of just, like, the last couple of weeks, some of the apps we've seen where people are—it could be [unintelligible 00:11:53]. It could be like, “We made a Slack bot that finally gets this reporting into the right channel [laugh] inside our company, but it was easy enough that I could do it myself without asking somebody to create it even though I'm not technically an engineer.” Like, that's incredible.The other extreme, we have people that are PhDs working on machine learning that are like, “At the end of the day, I don't want to be responsible for managing and deploying. [laugh]. I go home, and so the fact that I can do this in create is really great.” I think that energy, I mean, I feel the same way. I still build stuff all the time, and I think that's something where, like, you can't fake that and also, it's bigger than any one person or one public persona or social media profile, or whatever. I think there's this bigger idea. And I mean, to that point, there are millions of developers on Glitch and they've created well over ten million apps. I am not a humble person, but very clearly, that's not me, you know? [laugh].Corey: I have the same challenge to it's, effectively, I have now a 12 employee company and about that again contractors for various specialized functions, and the common perception, I think, is that mostly I do all the stuff that we talk about in public, and the other 11 folks sort of sit around and clap as I do it. Yeah, that is only four of those people's jobs as it turns out. There are more people doing work here. It's challenging, on some level, to get away from the myth of the founder who is the person who has the grand vision and does all the work and sees all these things.Anil: This industry loves the myth of the great man, or the solo legend, or the person in their bedroom is a genius, the lone genius, and it's a lie. It's a lie every time. And I think one of the things that we can do, especially in the work at Glitch, but I think just in my work overall with my whole career is to dismantle that myth. I think that would be incredibly valuable. It just would do a service for everybody.But I mean, that's why Glitch is the way it is. It's a collaboration platform. Our reference points are, you know, we look at Visual Studio and what have you, but we also look at Google Docs. Why is it that people love to just send a link to somebody and say, “Let's edit this thing together and knock out a, you know, a memo together or whatever.” I think that idea we're going to collaborate together, you know, we saw that—like, I think of Figma, which is a tool that I love. You know, I knew Dylan when he was a teenager and watching him build that company has been so inspiring, not least because design was always supposed to be collaborative.And then you think about we're all collaborating together in design every day. We're all collaborating together and writing in Google Docs—or whatever we use—every day. And then coding is still this kind of single-player game. Maybe at best, you throw something over the wall with a pull request, but for the most part, it doesn't feel like you're in there with somebody. Certainly doesn't feel like you're creating together in the same way that when you're jamming on these other creative tools does. And so I think that's what's been liberating for a lot of people is to feel like it's nice to have company when you're making something.Corey: Periodically, I'll talk to people in the AWS ecosystem who for some reason appear to believe that Jeff Barr builds a lot of these services himself then writes blog posts about them. And it's, Amazon does not break out how many of its 1.2 million or so employees work at AWS, but I'm guessing it's more than five people. So yeah, Jeff probably only wrote a dozen of those services himself; the rest are—Anil: That's right. Yeah.Corey: —done by service teams and the rest. It's easy to condense this stuff and I'm as guilty of it as anyone. To my mind, a big company is one that has 200 people in it. That is not apparently something the world agrees with.Anil: Yeah, it's impossible to fathom an organization of hundreds of thousands or a million-plus people, right? Like, our brains just aren't wired to do it. And I think so we reduce things to any given Jeff, whether that's Barr or Bezos, whoever you want to point to.Corey: At one point, I think they had something like more men named Jeff on their board than they did women, which—Anil: Yeah. Mm-hm.Corey: —all right, cool. They've fixed that and now they have a Dave problem.Anil: Yeah [unintelligible 00:15:37] say that my entire career has been trying to weave out of that dynamic, whether it was a Dave, a Mike, or a Jeff. But I think that broader sort of challenge is this—that is related to the idea of there being this lone genius. And I think if we can sort of say, well, creation always happens in community. It always happens influenced by other things. It is always—I mean, this is why we talk about it in Glitch.When you make an app, you don't start from a blank slate, you start from a working app that's already on the platform and you're remix it. And there was a little bit of a ego resistance by some devs years ago when they first encountered that because [unintelligible 00:16:14] like, “No, no, no, I need a blank page, you know, because I have this brilliant idea that nobody's ever thought of before.” And I'm like, “You know, the odds are you'll probably start from something pretty close to something that's built before.” And that enabler of, “There's nothing new under the sun, and you're probably remixing somebody else's thoughts,” I think that sort of changed the tenor of the community. And I think that's something where like, I just see that across the industry.When people are open, collaborative, like even today, a great example is web browsers. The folks making web browsers at Google, Apple, Mozilla are pretty collaborative. They actually do share ideas together. I mean, I get a window into that because they actually all use Glitch to do test cases on different bugs and stuff for them, but you see, one Glitch project will add in folks from Mozilla and folks from Apple and folks from the Chrome team and Google, and they're like working together and you're, like—you kind of let down the pretense of there being this secret genius that's only in this one organization, this one group of people, and you're able to make something great, and the web is greater than all of them. And the proof, you know, for us is that Glitch is not a new idea. Heroku wanted to do what we're doing, you know, a dozen years ago.Corey: Yeah, everyone wants to build Heroku except the company that acquired Heroku, and here we are. And now it's—I was waiting for the next step and it just seemed like it never happened.Anil: But you know when I talked to those folks, they were like, “Well, we didn't have Docker, and we didn't have containerization, and on the client side, we didn't have modern browsers that could do this kind of editing experience, all this kind of thing.” So, they let their editor go by the wayside and became mostly deploy platform. And—but people forget, for the first year or two Heroku had an in-browser editor, and an IDE and, you know, was constrained by the tech at the time. And I think that's something where I'm like, we look at that history, we look at, also, like I said, these browser manufacturers working together were able to get us to a point where we can make something better.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service. Although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLTP and OLAP, don't ask me to ever say those acronyms again, workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora, and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: I do have a question for you about the nuts and bolts behind the scenes of Glitch and how it works. If I want to remix something on Glitch, I click the button, a couple seconds later it's there and ready for me to start kicking the tires on, which tells me a few things. One, it is certainly not using CloudFormation to provision it because I didn't have time to go and grab a quick snack and take a six hour nap. So, it apparently is running on computers somewhere. I have it on good authority that this is not just run by people who are very fast at assembling packets by hand. What does the infrastructure look like?Anil: It's on AWS. Our first year-plus of prototyping while we were sort of in beta and early stages of Glitch was getting that time to remix to be acceptable. We still wish it were faster; I mean, that's always the way but, you know, when we started, it was like, yeah, you did sit there for a minute and watch your cursor spin. I mean, what's happening behind the scenes, we're provisioning a new container, standing up a full stack, bringing over the code from the Git repo on the previous project, like, we're doing a lot of work, lift behind the scenes, and we went through every possible permutation of what could make that experience be good enough. So, when we start talking about prototyping, we're at five-plus, almost six years ago when we started building the early versions of what became Glitch, and at that time, we were fairly far along in maturity with Docker, but there was not a clear answer about the use case that we're building for.So, we experimented with Docker Swarm. We went pretty far down that road; we spent a good bit of time there, it failed in ways that were both painful and slow to fix. So, that was great. I don't recommend that. In fairness, we have a very unusual use case, right? So, Glitch now, if you talk about ten million containers on Glitch, no two of those apps are the same and nobody builds an orchestration infrastructure assuming that every single machine is a unique snowflake.Corey: Yeah, massively multi-tenant is not really a thing that people know.Anil: No. And also from a security posture Glitch—if you look at it as a security expert—it is a platform allowing anonymous users to execute arbitrary code at scale. That's what we do. That's our job. And so [laugh], you know, so your threat model is very different. It's very different.I mean, literally, like, you can go to Glitch and build an app, running a full-stack app, without even logging in. And the reason we enable that is because we see kids in classrooms, they're learning to code for the first time, they want to be able to remix a project and they don't even have an email address. And so that was about enabling something different, right? And then, similarly, you know, we explored Kubernetes—because of course you do; it's the default choice here—and some of the optimizations, again, if you go back several years ago, being able to suspend a project and then quickly sort of rehydrate it off disk into a running app was not a common use case, and so it was not optimized. And so we couldn't offer that experience because what we do with Glitch is, if you haven't used an app in five minutes, and you're not a paid member, who put that app to sleep. And that's just a reasonable—Corey: Uh, “Put the app to sleep,” as in toddler, or, “Put the app to sleep,” as an ill puppy.Anil: [laugh]. Hopefully, the former, but when we were at our worst and scaling the ladder. But that is that thing; it's like we had that moment that everybody does, which is that, “Oh, no. This worked.” That was a really scary moment where we started seeing app creation ramping up, and number of edits that people were making in those apps, you know, ramping up, which meant deploys for us ramping up because we automatically deploy as you edit on Glitch. And so, you know, we had that moment where just—well, as a startup, you always hope things go up into the right, and then they do and then you're not sleeping for a long time. And we've been able to get it back under control.Corey: Like, “Oh, no, I'm not succeeding.” Followed immediately by, “Oh, no, I'm succeeding.” And it's a good problem to have.Anil: Exactly. Right, right, right. The only thing worse than failing is succeeding sometimes, in terms of stress levels. And organizationally, you go through so much; technically, you go through so much. You know, we were very fortunate to have such thoughtful technical staff to navigate these things.But it was not obvious, and it was not a sort of this is what you do off the shelf. And our architecture was very different because people had looked at—like, I look at one of our inspirations was CodePen, which is a great platform and the community love them. And their front end developers are, you know, always showing off, “Here's this cool CSS thing I figured out, and it's there.” But for the most part, they're publishing static content, so architecturally, they look almost more like a content management system than an app-running platform. And so we couldn't learn anything from them about our scaling our architecture.We could learn from them on community, and they've been an inspiration there, but I think that's been very, very different. And then, conversely, if we looked at the Herokus of the world, or all those sort of easy deploy, I think Amazon has half a dozen different, like, “This will be easier,” kind of deploy tools. And we looked at those, and they were code-centric not app-centric. And that led to fundamentally different assumptions in user experience and optimization.And so, you know, we had to chart our own path and I think it was really only the last year or so that we were able to sort of turn the corner and have high degree of confidence about, we know what people build on Glitch and we know how to support and scale it. And that unlocked this, sort of, wave of creativity where there are things that people want to create on the internet but it had become too hard to do so. And the canonical example I think I was—those of us are old enough to remember FTPing up a website—Corey: Oh, yes.Anil: —right—to Geocities, or whatever your shared web host was, we remember how easy that was and how much creativity was enabled by that.Corey: Yes, “How easy it was,” quote-unquote, for those of us who spent years trying to figure out passive versus active versus ‘what is going on?' As far as FTP transfers. And it turns out that we found ways to solve for that, mostly, but it became something a bit different and a bit weird. But here we are.Anil: Yeah, there was definitely an adjustment period, but at some point, if you'd made an HTML page in notepad on your computer, and you could, you know, hurl it at a server somewhere, it would kind of run. And when you realize, you look at the coding boot camps, or even just to, like, teach kids to code efforts, and they're like, “Day three. Now, you've gotten VS Code and GitHub configured. We can start to make something.” And you're like, “The whole magic of this thing getting it to light up. You put it in your web browser, you're like, ‘That's me. I made this.'” you know, north star for us was almost, like, you go from zero to hello world in a minute. That's huge.Corey: I started participating one of those boot camps a while back to help. Like, the first thing I changed about the curriculum was, “Yeah, we're not spending time teaching people how to use VI in, at that point, the 2010s.” It was, that was a fun bit of hazing for those of us who were becoming Unix admins and knew that wherever we'd go, we'd find VI on a server, but here in the real world, there are better options for that.Anil: This is rank cruelty.Corey: Yeah, I mean, I still use it because 20 years of muscle memory doesn't go away overnight, but I don't inflict that on others.Anil: Yeah. Well, we saw the contrast. Like, we worked with, there's a group called Mouse here in New York City that creates the computer science curriculum for the public schools in the City of New York. And there's a million kids in public school in New York City, right, and they all go through at least some of this CS education. [unintelligible 00:24:49] saw a lot of work, a lot of folks in the tech community here did. It was fantastic.And yet they were still doing this sort of very conceptual, theoretical. Here's how a professional developer would set up their environment. Quote-unquote, “Professional.” And I'm like, you know what really sparks kids' interests? If you tell them, “You can make a page and it'll be live and you can send it to your friend. And you can do it right now.”And once you've sparked that creative impulse, you can't stop them from doing the rest. And I think what was wild was kids followed down that path. Some of the more advanced kids got to high school and realized they want to experiment with, like, AI and ML, right? And they started playing with TensorFlow. And, you know, there's collaboration features in Glitch where you can do real-time editing and a code with this. And they went in the forum and they were asking questions, that kind of stuff. And the people answering their questions were the TensorFlow team at Google. [laugh]. Right?Corey: I remember those days back when everything seemed smaller and more compact, [unintelligible 00:25:42] but almost felt like a balkanization of community—Anil: Yeah.Corey: —where now it's oh, have you joined that Slack team, and I'm looking at this and my machine is screaming for more RAM. It's, like, well, it has 128 gigs in it. Shouldn't that be enough? Not for Slack.Anil: Not for chat. No, no, no. Chat is demanding.Corey: Oh, yeah, that and Chrome are basically trying to out-ram each other. But if you remember the days of volunteering as network staff on Freenode when you could basically gather everyone for a given project in the entire stack on the same IRC network. And that doesn't happen anymore.Anil: And there's something magic about that, right? It's like now the conversations are closed off in a Slack or Discord or what have you, but to have a sort of open forum where people can talk about this stuff, what's wild about that is, for a beginner, a teenage creator who's learning this stuff, the idea that the people who made the AI, I can talk to, they're alive still, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, they're not even that old. But [laugh]. They think of this is something that's been carved in stone for 100 years.And so it's so inspiring to them. And then conversely, talking to the TensorFlow team, they made these JavaScript examples, like, tensorflow.js was so accessible, you know? And they're like, “This is the most heartwarming thing. Like, we think about all these enterprise use cases or whatever. But like, kids wanting to make stuff, like recognize their friends' photo, and all the vision stuff they're doing around [unintelligible 00:26:54] out there,” like, “We didn't know this is why we do it until we saw this is why we do it.”And that part about connecting the creative impulse from both, like, the most experienced, advanced coders at the most august tech companies that exist, as well as the most rank beginners in public schools, who might not even have a computer at home, saying that's there—if you put those two things together, and both of those are saying, “I'm a coder; I'm able to create; I can make something on the internet, and I can share it with somebody and be inspired by it,” like, that is… that's as good as it gets.Corey: There's something magic in being able to reach out to people who built this stuff. And honestly—you shouldn't feel this way, but you do—when I was talking to the folks who wrote the things I was working on, it really inspires you to ask better questions. Like when I'm talking to Dr. Venema, the author of Postfix and I'm trying to figure out how this thing works, well, I know for a fact that I will not be smarter than he is at basically anything in that entire universe, and maybe most beyond that, as well, however, I still want to ask a question in such a way that doesn't make me sound like a colossal dumbass. So, it really inspires you—Anil: It motivates you.Corey: Oh, yeah. It inspires you to raise your question bar up a bit, of, “I am trying to do x. I expect y to happen. Instead, z is happening as opposed to what I find the documentation that”—oh, as I read the documentation, discover exactly what I messed up, and then I delete the whole email. It's amazing how many of those things you never send because when constructing a question the right way, you can help yourself.Anil: Rubber ducking against your heroes.Corey: Exactly.Anil: I mean, early in my career, I'd gone through sort of licensing mishap on a project that later became open-source, and sort of stepped it in and as you do, and unprompted, I got an advice email from Dan Bricklin, who invented the spreadsheet, he invented VisiCalc, and he had advice and he was right. And it was… it was unreal. I was like, this guy's one of my heroes. I grew up reading about his work, and not only is he, like, a living, breathing person, he's somebody that can have the kindness to reach out and say, “Yeah, you know, have you tried this? This might work.”And it's, this isn't, like, a guy who made an app. This is the guy who made the app for which the phrase killer app was invented, right? And, you know, we've since become friends and I think a lot of his inspiration and his work. And I think it's one of the things it's like, again, if you tell somebody starting out, the people who invented the fundamental tools of the digital era, are still active, still building stuff, still have advice to share, and you can connect with them, it feels like a cheat code. It feels like a superpower, right? It feels like this impossible thing.And I think about like, even for me, the early days of the web, view source, which is still buried in our browser somewhere. And you can see the code that makes the page, it felt like getting away with something. “You mean, I can just look under the hood and see how they made this page and then I can do it too?” I think we forget how radical that is—[unintelligible 00:29:48] radical open-source in general is—and you see it when, like, you talk to young creators. I think—you know, I mean, Glitch obviously is used every day by, like, people at Microsoft and Google and the New York Timesor whatever, like, you know, the most down-the-road, enterprise developers, but I think a lot about the new creators and the people who are learning, and what they tell me a lot is the, like, “Oh, so I made this app, but what do I have to do to put it on the internet?”I'm like, “It already is.” Like, as soon as you create it, that URL was live, it all works. And their, like, “But isn't there, like, an app store I have to ask? Isn't there somebody I have to get permission to publish this from? Doesn't somebody have to approve it?”And you realize they've grown up with whether it was the app stores on their phones, or the cartridges in their Nintendo or, you know, whatever it was, they had always had this constraint on technology. It wasn't something you make; it's something that is given to you, you know, handed down from on high. And I think that's the part that animates me and the whole team, the community, is this idea of, like, I geek out about our infrastructure. I love that we're doing deploys constantly, so fast, all the time, and I love that we've taken the complexity away, but the end of the day, the reason why we do it, is you can have somebody just sort of saying, I didn't realize there was a place I could just make something put it in front of, maybe, millions of people all over the world and I don't have to ask anybody permission and my idea can matter as much as the thing that's made by the trillion-dollar company.Corey: It's really neat to see, I guess, the sense of spirit and soul that arises from a smaller, more, shall we say, soulful company. No disparagement meant toward my friends at AWS and other places. It's just, there's something that you lose when you get to a certain point of scale. Like, I don't ever have to have a meeting internally and discuss things, like, “Well, does this thing that we're toying with doing violate antitrust law?” That is never been on my roadmap of things I have to even give the slightest crap about.Anil: Right, right? You know, “What does the investor relations person at a retirement fund think about the feature that we shipped?” Is not a question that we have to answer. There's this joy in also having community that sort of has come along with us, right? So, we talk a lot internally about, like, how do we make sure Glitch stays weird? And, you know, the community sort of supports that.Like, there's no reason logically that our logo should be the emoji of two fish. But that kind of stuff of just, like, it just is. We don't question it anymore. I think that we're very lucky. But also that we are part of an ecosystem. I also am very grateful where, like… yeah, that folks at Google use Glitch as part of their daily work when they're explaining a new feature in Chrome.Like, if you go to web.dev and their dev portal teaches devs how to code, all the embedded examples go to these Glitch apps that are running, showing running code is incredible. When we see the Stripe team building examples of, like, “Do you want to use this new payment API that we made? Well, we have a Glitch for you.” And literally every day, they ship one that sort of goes and says, “Well, if you just want to use this new Stripe feature, you just remix this thing and it's instantly running on Glitch.”I mean, those things are incredible. So like, I'm very grateful that the biggest companies and most influential companies in the industry have embraced it. So, I don't—yeah, I don't disparage them at all, but I think that ability to connect to the person who'd be like, “I just want to do payments. I've never heard of Stripe.”Corey: Oh yeah.Anil: And we have this every day. They come into Glitch, and they're just like, I just wanted to take credit cards. I didn't know there's a tool to do that.Corey: “I was going to build it myself,” and everyone shrieks, “No, no. Don't do that. My God.” Yeah. Use one of their competitors, fine,k but building it yourself is something a lunatic would do.Anil: Exactly. Right, right. And I think we forget that there's only so much attention people can pay, there's only so much knowledge they have.Corey: Everything we say is new to someone. That's why I always go back to assuming no one's ever heard of me, and explain the basics of what I do and how I do it, periodically. It's, no one has done all the mandatory reading. Who knew?Anil: And it's such a healthy exercise to, right, because I think we always have that kind of beginner's mindset about what Glitch is. And in fairness, I understand why. Like, there have been very experienced developers that have said, “Well, Glitch looks too colorful. It looks like a toy.” And that we made a very intentional choice at masking—like, we're doing the work under the hood.And you can drop down into a terminal and you can do—you can run whatever build script you want. You can do all that stuff on Glitch, but that's not what we put up front and I think that's this philosophy about the role of the technology versus the people in the ecosystem.Corey: I want to thank you for taking so much time out of your day to, I guess, explain what Glitch is and how you view it. If people want to learn more about it, about your opinions, et cetera. Where can they find you?Anil: Sure. glitch.com is easiest place, and hopefully that's a something you can go and a minute later, you'll have a new app that you built that you want to share. And, you know, we're pretty active on all social media, you know, Twitter especially with Glitch: @glitch. I'm on as @anildash.And one of the things I love is I get to talk to folks like you and learn from the community, and as often as not, that's where most of the inspiration comes from is just sort of being out in all the various channels, talking to people. It's wild to be 20-plus years into this and still never get tired of that.Corey: It's why I love this podcast. Every time I talk to someone, I learn something new. It's hard to remain too ignorant after you have enough people who've shared wisdom with you as long as you can retain it.Anil: That's right.Corey: Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me.Anil: So, glad to be here.Corey: Anil Dash, CEO of Gletch—or Glitch as he insists on calling it. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry comment telling me how your small team at AWS is going to crush Glitch into the dirt just as soon as they find a name that's dumb enough for the service.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.
Kate Davis talks with Ellen Pao about the rise in workplace harassment during the pandemic, what's possibly causing the problem, and what companies should be doing to fix it. Pao is a tech investor and advocate, the former CEO of reddit, and CEO and cofounder of the diversity and inclusion nonprofit Project Include.
This conversation was recorded as part of Work Shouldn't Suck's https://www.workshouldntsuck.co/ethical-reopening-summit-2021 (Ethical Re-Opening Summit) that took place on April 27, 2021. How can we and our organizations acknowledge and support the well-being of everyone as we continue to live and work through a global pandemic? Resources mentioned during session:Project Include's https://projectinclude.org/remote-work-report/ (Remote Work Report) & https://projectinclude.org/assets/pdf/Project_Include_Executive_Summary_0321_R4.pdf (Executive Summary) “https://hbr.org/2021/04/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-manager-today (What Does It Mean to Be a Manager Today?)” by Brian Kropp, Alexia Cambon, and Sara Clark via Harvard Business Review “https://www.myungrangpark.com/measuring-loss-the-inequities-in-remembrance (Measuring Loss: The Inequities in Remembrance)” by Sophia Park “https://medium.com/commonfuture/prioritizing-wellbeing-in-2020-7f7473597354 (Prioritizing wellbeing in 2020)” by Joann Lee Wagner “https://www.workshouldntsuck.co/podcast2/ep03 (Working While Grieving)” Work Shouldn't Suck podcast EP03 “https://www.indiebound.org/book/9781942094470 (My Grandmother's Hands: Racialized Trauma and the Pathway to Mending Our Hearts and Bodies)” by Resmaa Menakem “https://projectinclude.org/assets/pdf/Project_Include_Harassment_Report_0321_R8.pdf (Remote work since Covid-19 is exacerbating harm: What companies need to know and do)” by Project Include https://www.brainpickings.org/2016/06/20/the-body-keeps-the-score-van-der-kolk/ (The Body Keeps The Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma) by Bessel Van Der Kolk, M.D. “https://www.womanlymag.com/stressed-out/the-han-flowing-through-my-veins (The Han Flowing Through My Veins)” by Sophia Park via Womanly “https://hbr.org/2021/01/how-to-keep-your-cool-in-high-stress-situations (How to Keep Your Cool in High-Stress Situations)” by Robert E. Quinn, David P. Fessell, and Stephen W. Porges via Harvard Business Review SHANNON LITZENBERGER is an award winning dance artist, embodiment facilitator and experienced cultural leader working at the intersection of art, ideas and transformational change. As a dancer, performance maker and director, her work explores our relationship to land, the politics of belonging, and the forgotten wisdom of the body. She has been an invited resident artist at Soulpepper Theatre, Toronto Dance Theatre, Harbourfront Centre, Atlantic Ballet Theatre, Banff Centre, and the Gros Morne Summer Music Festival. She collaborates frequently with the Dark by Five Inter-arts ensemble and the Wind in the Leaves Collective. As a skilled freelance strategist, programmer, leadership developer, policy thinker and embodiment facilitator, she works with leading organizations in the arts, academia and the corporate sector. She is currently a faculty member at Banff Centre's Cultural Leadership Program; a Program Associate with the Cultural Pluralism in the Arts Movement Ontario (CPAMO) working on issues of equity, inclusion and pluralism; a guest facilitator of embodied practice at the Ivey Business School; a Trudeau Foundation Mentor; and a Chalmers Fellow, exploring the application of embodied practice in leadership development and transformative change processes. SOPHIA PARK (she/her) is a writer, independent curator, and general art person currently working out of Lenapehoking (Brooklyn, NY) and Gumi, South Korea. She studied neuroscience at Oberlin College, and will be a MA candidate at the School of Visual Arts in curatorial practice starting fall 2021. She's worked at the https://www.metmuseum.org/ (Metropolitan Museum of Art), and currently works at https://www.fracturedatlas.org/ (Fractured Atlas). She co-founded and helps run https://www.artwithjip.com/ (Jip Gallery), an apartment gallery turned curatorial collective, with fellow curators and friends. You can find her writing in numerous publications including Womanly Mag, Strata Mag,...
This week on All Ears, Abby is joined by Ellen Pao. Pao made headlines in 2012 when she sued venture capital firm Kleiner-Perkins for gender discrimination. In 2015 she lost the lawsuit, but it sent shockwaves throughout Silicon Valley and got people talking about the rampant bro-culture, sexism and bad behaviors that had gone unchallenged there for so long. She went on to become the interim CEO of Reddit, where she banned revenge porn and shut down some of the worst subreddits. Now she runs Project Include, a non-profit that is focused on increasing diversity and inclusion in the tech industry. In this week's conversation with Abby, she talks about the impact of her lawsuit, her brief but influential time at Reddit, Silicon Valley's obsession with 26 year-old white, cis men in hoodies, and her hope for the future of the tech industry. Tune in for a thoughtful discussion on what can go right and what does go wrong in Silicon Valley. EPISODE LINKSEllen Pao's Website Project Include Website Reset: My Fight For Inclusion and Lasting Change by Ellen Pao The Pao v. Kleiner Perkins Gender Discrimination Lawsuit The Guardian, 'They don't think it's important': Ellen Pao on why Facebook can't beat hate, 2020 New York Times, Ellen Pao Disrupts How Silicon Valley Does Business, 2015 New York Times, Ellen Pao Loses Silicon Valley Bias Case Against Kleiner Perkins, 2015 New York Times, Lawsuit Shakes Foundation of a Man's World of Tech, 2012 VOX, A Who's-Who of the Kleiner Perkins-Ellen Pao Trial, 2015The Verge, Ellen Pao shifted hiring practices at Reddit to improve diversity, 2015The Guardian, Reddit chief Ellen Pao resigns after receiving ‘sickening' abuse from users, 2015The Verge, Timnit Gebru was fired from Google–then the harassers arrived, 2021
This week, Ellen Pao (CEO of Project Include) and McKensie Mack (CEO of MMG) join Remote CEO Job van der Voort to discuss their new report on harassment in remote workplaces and share strategies for companies to create welcoming remote environments for all.
Over the past year, Covid-19 has exacerbated suffering across every section of life. Harassment and hostility, work pressure, and the strain of a pandemic, along with trauma from ongoing racism, sexism, and other discrimination, have taken a toll on our mental health. Until now, little research has been done on the impact of Covid-19 on the tech workforce. Project Include surveyed almost 3,000 people and interviewed dozens more about the shift to remote online workplaces. In their latest report, “Remote work since Covid-19 is exacerbating harm: What companies need to know and do”, they take an intersectional lens and data equity-focused approach to understand specifically who has been harmed, how they were harmed, and how to fix it.Speaker BiosOne of Silicon Valley's leading advocates for fairness and ethics, Ellen Pao is also a long-time entrepreneur and tech investor. Her landmark gender discrimination case against venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins sparked other women, especially women of color, to fight harassment and discrimination in what's been called the "Pao Effect.” Currently, Ellen is CEO of nonprofit Project Include, which uses data-based, practical solutions and recommendations to give everyone a fair chance to succeed. At reddit, she was the first major social platform CEO to ban revenge porn, unauthorized nude photos, and cross-platform harassment, with other social media sites quickly following suit. Ellen has written and spoken extensively, including in The New York Times, The Washington Post, TIME, Recode, and WIRED. Her book “Reset” recounts her long-time advocacy of diversity and inclusion and her own experiences with discrimination.Yang Hong works as Shoshin Insights, an in(ter)dependent data and machine learning consultancy with a justice-centered approach for societal issues. She's worked on the global refugee crisis, hearing aids, data poverty, climate justice, tech equity, and more. As a community builder, she has tended to gardens such as Work On Climate, Activist Teahouse, and South Park Commons. Yang is a creative apprentice to lifelong practices of tea and collective liberation.McKensie Mack (pronouns: they/them) is a trilingual anti-oppression consultant, researcher, facilitator, and the founder & CEO of MMG. MMG is a global social justice organization that specializes in organizational change management through a lens of data equity; helping people transform culture, practices, and policies at the intersection of race, gender, class, disability, and LGBTQ+ identity. Their clients are currently based all over the world in the U.S., the UK, France, South Africa, Nigeria, Germany, Spain, and Peru. McKensie is the former inaugural Executive Director of Art+Feminism, one of the largest gender equity focused projects on Wikipedia.
It’s no secret that the shift to remote work during COVID-19 has been stressful and isolating. But for many, the online workplace has also led to increased harassment, hostility, and harm. McKensie Mack, Caroline Sinders, and Yang Hong are co-authors of a new report from Project Include all about harassment, harm, and hostility in the remote workplace during the COVID-19 pandemic. The study included data from almost 3,000 survey respondents as well several first-person accounts of how remote workplaces can exacerbate harm. The report aims to provide not only a comprehensive picture of the trauma faced by various groups of tech professionals but also tools for companies to correct harm and become more trauma-informed.There are a lot of ways in which, for example, trans women and non-binary people experience transphobia in the workplace, and it's not considered to be harassment. And I think it has a lot to do with the ways in which we define what harm is. And so in our work, especially, the fact that trans people are nearly twice as likely to have experienced gender-based harm than their peers, the fact that Black non-binary people, Black women are nearly three times as likely to experience race-based harm in the workplace as their peers, it tells us a lot about the ways in which gender impacts how people are experiencing harm in a workplace and how it amplifies that experience.—McKensie Mack, CEO of MMG and co-author, Project Include reportWe talk about:Which groups have been disproportionately affected by remote workWhat we mean by “harm” and “harassment”What harmful workplace practices look like, and how workplaces can become more trauma-informedStrategies for how to handle or intervene in a harmful workplacePlus: in this week’s You’ve Got This, Sara talks steps for using your privilege to speak up against a toxic work environment. Ask yourself: what are the harmful behaviors that you've been tolerating in your team or in your company? What's stopping you from speaking up about those? Is it that you are afraid of doing or saying the wrong thing? For all this and more, head over to https://www.activevoicehq.com/podcast.Links:Project Include Remote Work ReportMcKensie MackCaroline SindersYang HongPods and Pod MappingAgainst “Feel Free To Take Some Time if You Need It”adrienne maree brown on principled struggleActive Voice
In this episode, we talk about the problematic blog post put out by Basecamp CEO and Co-founder Jason Fried, and we also get into how crypto currency miners are killing free CI. Then we chat with Hector Monsegur, security researcher and former blackhat hacker, about how University of Minnesota security researchers submitted security vulnerabilities to the Linux kernel to show flaws in the approval process leading to a call for a ban on anything submitted by umn.edu emails. Finally, we speak with McKensie Mack, founder & CEO of MMG and a co-author of a report put out by the non-profit, Project Include, about how remote work is leading to more gender and racial harassment at tech companies. Show Notes DevDiscuss (sponsor) CodeNewbie (sponsor) Scout APM (sponsor) RudderStack (sponsor) Changes at Basecamp What really happened at Basecamp An Open Letter To Jason and David Crypto miners are killing free CI Remote work since Covid-19 is exacerbating harm: What companies need to know and do University of Minnesota banned from contributing to Linux kernel
For those of us lucky enough to work remotely this past year, talking with colleagues has felt sort of like being in a chatroom with workplace messaging platforms full of GIFs and emoji. But bringing the culture of the internet to work can also be toxic. A recent study from Project Include found that some tech workers experienced more harassment on those platforms, particularly women, people of color and transgender and nonbinary workers. Meghan McCarty Carino speaks with Caroline Sinders, who studies online harassment and founded Convocation Design + Research. She worked on the report and said the abuse took lots of forms.
For those of us lucky enough to work remotely this past year, talking with colleagues has felt sort of like being in a chatroom with workplace messaging platforms full of GIFs and emoji. But bringing the culture of the internet to work can also be toxic. A recent study from Project Include found that some tech workers experienced more harassment on those platforms, particularly women, people of color and transgender and nonbinary workers. Meghan McCarty Carino speaks with Caroline Sinders, who studies online harassment and founded Convocation Design + Research. She worked on the report and said the abuse took lots of forms.
For those of us lucky enough to work remotely this past year, talking with colleagues has felt sort of like being in a chatroom with workplace messaging platforms full of GIFs and emoji. But bringing the culture of the internet to work can also be toxic. A recent study from Project Include found that some tech workers experienced more harassment on those platforms, particularly women, people of color and transgender and nonbinary workers. Meghan McCarty Carino speaks with Caroline Sinders, who studies online harassment and founded Convocation Design + Research. She worked on the report and said the abuse took lots of forms.
For those of us lucky enough to work remotely this past year, talking with colleagues has felt sort of like being in a chatroom with workplace messaging platforms full of GIFs and emoji. But bringing the culture of the internet to work can also be toxic. A recent study from Project Include found that some tech workers experienced more harassment on those platforms, particularly women, people of color and transgender and nonbinary workers. Meghan McCarty Carino speaks with Caroline Sinders, who studies online harassment and founded Convocation Design + Research. She worked on the report and said the abuse took lots of forms.
Ellen Pao, founder and CEO of Project Include, discussed the organization's efforts to promote diversity and inclusion in the tech industry. She took questions from Marketwatch technology reporter, Levi Sumagaysay. Project Include is a non-profit diversity consulting organization. Ms. Pao is the former interim CEO of Reddit. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
You can find more about Resner here. Learn more about the topics we discussed by following some of Resner's suggested links below: People to follow on Twitter: Safyia Noble, Ruha Benjamin, and Kamal Sinclair.Ellen Pao and Project Include.Eli Pariser and New Public by Civic Signals.
You can find more about Resner here. Learn more about the topics we discussed by following some of Resner's suggested links below: People to follow on Twitter: Safyia Noble, Ruha Benjamin, and Kamal Sinclair.Ellen Pao and Project Include.Eli Pariser and New Public by Civic Signals.
Ellen Pao has become a champion for fairness and inclusion in Silicon Valley as a long-time entrepreneur and tech investor. Her landmark gender discrimination case against venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins in 2012 inspired other women to stand up against harassment and discrimination in the workplace, also known as the “Pao Effect.” As the CEO of Reddit, Ellen was the first major social platform leader to ban revenge porn, unauthorized nude photos, and cross-platform harassment. Currently, she is the CEO of nonprofit Project Include, which uses data-based solutions and recommendations for equity at tech companies. Ellen joins Jennifer Palmieri to discuss whether or not CEOs have the power and technology to control misinformation and hate, what the “Bamboo Ceiling” is, and their expectations vs. reality for women in the workplace. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://news.iheart.com/podcast-advertisers
Ellen Pao has become a champion for fairness and inclusion in Silicon Valley as a long-time entrepreneur and tech investor. Her landmark gender discrimination case against venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins in 2012 inspired other women to stand up against harassment and discrimination in the workplace, also known as the “Pao Effect.” As the CEO of Reddit, Ellen was the first major social platform leader to ban revenge porn, unauthorized nude photos, and cross-platform harassment. Currently, she is the CEO of nonprofit Project Include, which uses data-based solutions and recommendations for equity at tech companies. Ellen joins Jennifer Palmieri to discuss whether or not CEOs have the power and technology to control misinformation and hate, what the “Bamboo Ceiling” is, and their expectations vs. reality for women in the workplace. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
Concerned with the ways that AI and machine learning often display biases against already marginalized groups, Laura Gomez created Atipica, a platform that uses those same tools to remove rather than exacerbate bias in the hiring process. Gomez is also a founding member of Project Include, a non-profit that aims to accelerate diversity and inclusion in the tech industry, and a member of the Anita Borg Institute for Women and Technology, as well as Code.org's Diversity Council. She describes the trends that have contributed to her company's growth and encourages founders from diverse backgrounds to engage with tech, build confidence, and drive change.
Concerned with the ways that AI and machine learning often display biases against already marginalized groups, Laura Gomez created Atipica, a platform that uses those same tools to remove rather than exacerbate bias in the hiring process. Gomez is also a founding member of Project Include, a non-profit that aims to accelerate diversity and inclusion in the tech industry, and a member of the Anita Borg Institute for Women and Technology, as well as Code.org’s Diversity Council. She describes the trends that have contributed to her company’s growth and encourages founders from diverse backgrounds to engage with tech, build confidence, and drive change.
Concerned with the ways that AI and machine learning often display biases against already marginalized groups, Laura Gomez created Atipica, a platform that uses those same tools to remove rather than exacerbate bias in the hiring process. Gomez is also a founding member of Project Include, a non-profit that aims to accelerate diversity and inclusion in the tech industry, and a member of the Anita Borg Institute for Women and Technology, as well as Code.org’s Diversity Council. She describes the trends that have contributed to her company’s growth and encourages founders from diverse backgrounds to engage with tech, build confidence, and drive change.
Ellen Pao is CEO of Project Include and author of the book Reset: My Fight for Inclusion and Lasting Change. Her book looks at power in the tech world – and why so few women and people of color hold it. She famously sued an elite venture capital firm for sexism, and in doing so set off a national conversation. As CEO of Reddit, she waged one of the first highly visible battles against Internet trolls – a topic which has since exploded as big tech companies come under heavier scrutiny. In this wide-ranging conversation, we cover a range of topics. From Ellen’s experience litigating against a powerful venture capital firm to the current state of diversity in Silicon Valley she tells her story. https://www.ellenkpao.com https://projectinclude.org https://somethingventured.us
Podcast Description “I feel that tech is capable of change. It’s still a relatively young sector. The young men who built this industry…tended to be people who themselves were not treated that well at high school. Ya know, nerds shall inherit the Earth. When you point out to some of them that they are now oppressing other marginalized groups, most of them are horrified at that idea. They want to be better. They want to change.”Sacha Judd runs the Hoku Group, a family office combining private investments, early-stage tech ventures and a non-profit foundation. She is the co-host of Refactor (a series of events around diversity in technology), and Flounders’ Club (a network for early-stage company founders). She also spends a confusing amount of time explaining why Harry Styles might be the answer to everything. Additional Resources How the tech sector could move in One Direction (hiring for diversity)Superfan! (Improving trust and psychological safety in teams and organisations)Project Include (tools and measurement for improving diversity and inclusion)Rukmini Pande on the Fansplaining podcast, talking about race and fandom Twitter Sacha Judd Become a #causeascene Podcast sponsor because disruption and innovation are products of individuals who take bold steps in order to shift the collective and challenge the status quo.Learn more >All music for the #causeascene podcast is composed and produced by Chaos, Chao Pack, and Listen on SoundCloud. Listen to more great #causeascene podcasts full podcast list >
Jason Wong is a proven engineering leader, diversity & inclusion consultant, and doughnut enthusiast. With almost two decades of experience in building and scaling web applications, he has worked in a range of industries from academia to online media and e-commerce. He helped establish web development and administrative computing at Columbia College, led development of premium video streaming services at Yahoo! Sports, and spent seven years at Etsy leading their Infrastructure Engineering team. He currently works with engineering leaders to improve their engineering management practices and establish inclusive cultures. Contact Info: JWong Works Website Twitter: https://twitter.com/attackgecko Show Notes: NCWIT Women in tech report Etsy’s recommended reading list for allies Why Women Leave Tech Maleallies.com Lara Hogan’s Ally Resources Geek Feminism – Feminism 101 Project Include
In this episode of Nevertheless Tracy Chou, Jyoti Chopra, and Anjali Ramachandran discuss frameworks, metrics and intersectionality, and ask the hard questions about diversity and inclusion. The podcast was recorded at a live event held in London in November 2018, and was a collaboration between Ada's List and Nevertheless. The event was hosted by Anjali Ramachandran, co-founder of Ada's List, a global community of those who identify as women in tech. Anjali is joined by Tracy Chou and Jyoti Chopra. Tracy is a Software Engineer who has worked at Quora and Pinterest and is well known for her work pushing for diversity in tech. Tracy is now a founding member of Project Include, and is focused on driving solutions in the space. Jyoti is Senior Vice President and Global Leader of Diversity & Inclusion at Pearson. She is a member of the Board of Advisors at Toyota Motor Company, and previously held prominent positions at Deloitte, Merrill Lynch and BNY Mellon. ---
On this episode, our guest is Tammy Cho, co-founder of BetterBrave--an online site that combats sexual harassment, discrimination and retaliation in the workplace by empowering targets and allies with the necessary resources and tools. BetterBrave offers options for women to report harassment and provides a clear outline of their rights. Users can also access BetterBrave's guide to learn steps to take before reporting an incident to HR and the importance of consulting an employment attorney as soon as possible to guide the response for optimal job protection. In our conversation with Tammy, we address the culture of sexual harassment in the workplace, the risks and harms from reporting harassment and discrimination, and the tools that BetterBrave offers employees to empower them to speak out while reducing the possibility of retaliation. We also speak with Tammy about how we, as individuals, can do more to nurture a workplace culture that incentivizes equal treatment, respect, and accountability. During our interview, Tammy and I referenced the below resources: Former Uber employee and whistleblower, Susan Fowler's blog post about her experience at Uber Forbes article: Uber Whistleblower Susan Fowler On What Every Company Should Do To Stop Harassment Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 that protected against workplace discrimination The Ledbetter v. Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co. Supreme Court Decision that decided that employers couldn't be sued if he claims were made more than 180 days from the date of hire President Obama's resetting of the 180 day statute of limitations in the Ledbetter v. Goodyear et al. ruling with each new pay check, in the Lilly Ledbetter's Fair Pay Act of 2009 Trump Revoked Crucial Protections For Women Workers The Week Prior To Equal Pay Day Why Trump suspended an Obama administration wage gap initiative The Cost of Sexual Harassment in the Workplace 11 Types of Workplace Harassment and How to Stop Them Futures Without Violence's resources on "Workplace Safety and Equity" and Project Include's website, which supports diversity and inclusion in the tech industry BetterBrave partners' Equal Rights Advocates and the Time's Up Legal Defense Fund The EEOC's most recent lawsuit against seven organizations for harassment Vox article that addresses the industries with the most sexual harassment claims More about the movement for "One Fair Wage" for restaurant workers Study: Lingering illnesses can trouble women for years after assault, workplace harassment --- Thanks for tuning in to the en(gender)ed podcast! Be sure to check out our en(gender)ed site and follow our blog on Medium. Consider donating because your support is what makes this work sustainable. Please also connect with us on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook. Don't forget to subscribe to the show!
This week we spoke to Deborah, who split her PEY between 12 months at Clarifai in New York City and 4 months at the MIT Media Lab! Notes 1:20 - getting into engineering, previous work experience and first jobs at JR Deep and with Project Include, becoming interesting in working in tech 3:45 - developing skills through attending lots of hackathons, attending TechCrunch Disrupt! 6:20 - learning about Clarifai in NYC and computer vision in school, deciding on doing PEY 10:00 - Embarking on a campaign to find a job at a startups, getting a job at Clarifai 13:00 - Work experience at Clarifai, startup work culture 18:10 - Transitioning to a role that felt more like a full-time position 20:05 - Living in Manhattan, moving to Brooklyn 22:20 - Neighborhood culture, comparing Toronto, Ottawa, and NYC, having space for personal growth 27:42 - Summer research at MIT Media Lab, "anti-disciplinary research" 30:45 - Finding out about the researcher through a TED Talk, research in algorithmic/data bias 36:17 - Other things going on at the lab, prosthetics, "do-ocracy" vs a meritocracy 39:58 - Constraints of industry vs. research, justifying research, corporate sponsored research 43:20 - Life outside of work, meeting cool hip musical friends in Cambridge 45:24 - Differences between MIT and UofT, "intersession", alumni relations 52:02 - Coming back and appreciating Toronto in a new way, changes to plans for 4th year 56:00 - Mentorship, machine learning twitter Links Twitter Campaigning for jobs, another one TED Talk on algorithmic bias Music by Shawn Lee
In the second episode of the new Product Hunt Radio, I’m joined by two amazing community-builders based in New York, Anil Dash and Allison Esposito. Anil is the CEO of Glitch, a friendly community where developers build the app of their dreams. You'll find everything from AI-powered musical spinners to multiplayer drawing game created on the platform. He's also an advisor to Medium, DonorsChoose, Project Include, and Stack Overflow. Allison is formerly of Oyster, the Netflix for books, which was acquired by Google in 2015. Afterward she founded Tech Ladies, a community that connects women with the best jobs in tech. In this episode we talk about: The good ol' days of IRC, Friendster, AIM, and MySpace. A lot has changed since then, yet they continue to exhibit some of the same dynamics and challenges of today's massive social networks. The challenges of building a healthy community on the internet in a time when careers and reputations can be destroyed in an instant. How online communities mirror offline interactions. Opening up an app has many parallels to walking into a social gathering in real life. Some of the common misconceptions people have about creating communities online and what a founder’s goal should really be in starting a community. Of course, we’ll also cover some of our favorite products that you might not know about. We’ll be back next week so be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Breaker, Overcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Also, big thanks to our sponsors, Airtable, GE Ventures, Intercom and Stripe for their support.
We’ve all heard companies talk big about how they value diversity. But many still aren’t willing to quantify how they’re doing: who works there? Who’s getting hired and promoted? Are people being paid equitably? On today’s show, we talk about diversity, data, and how one engineer’s call for hard numbers shook things up. That engineer was Tracy Chou—a leading voice in tech industry diversity and inclusion conversations. She’s a wildly talented software engineer who believes in the importance of increasing transparency among tech companies, the need for tech to value a humanities education, and the pleasures of spending way too much time on Twitter. > As an engineer, I’m so used to having to have data for everything. But the lack of data on the workforce side just felt so hypocritical to me. It seemed like it wasn’t really a problem that we wanted to solve if we weren’t even looking at the data. > —**Tracy Chou, Project Include founding advisor ** We talked with Tracy about: What the real picture of diversity in tech companies looks like and where the numbers are. Why it’s important for tech companies to get comfortable releasing data about their workforce, and why it’s critical to consider the intersectionality of diversity efforts. A nonprofit Tracy helped to found called Project Include, which shares best practices around implementing diversity and inclusion solutions. Plus, we talk about ch-ch-ch-changes and asking for help: Specifically, change at work—how we deal with it and how it can affect us emotionally and physically. And yup, we constantly have to remind ourselves that it’s ok to ask for help. The good news is, we’re helping each other do it more. Jenn even got to take a vacation complete with funnel cake, because she asked for help with childcare. Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit shopify.com/careers for more. Harvest, makers of awesome software to help you track your time, manage your projects, and get paid. Try it free, then use code NOYOUGO to get 50% off your first paid month. Transcript [Ad spot] SWB Harvest makes awesome software for tracking time, planning projects, sending invoices, and generally helping me keep it all together at work. Or at least look like I have it all together—even if I’m actually still wearing sweatpants. I love how easy it is to use, whether I’m working solo or scaling up a larger team for a big project. You’ll love Harvest, too. Go to getharvest.com to try it free, and if you’re ready for a paid account, use code noyougo to get 50% off your first month. That’s getharvest.com, code noyougo. [intro music plays for 12 seconds] Jenn Lukas Hey friends, welcome to No, You Go, the show about being ambitious and sticking together. I’m Jenn Lukas. Katel LeDû I’m Katel LeDû. SWB And I’m Sara Wachter-Boettcher. And today we are talking to Tracy Chou, who is an entrepreneur and an engineer whose push for tech companies to start revealing employee diversity data back in 2013 kickstarted a lot of huge changes in Silicon Valley, and put her on the cover of The Atlantic and Wired and a whole bunch of other stuff. It also led her to become a founding member of Project Include, which is a non-profit that is on a mission to accelerate diversity and inclusion in the tech industry. So we chat with Tracy about how she became a diversity advocate, how that’s changed her career and what she’s learned along the way. But before we do that, I just want to kind of check in with everyone. So, how’s life? JL Life’s been a little wild this week. We kicked off some really big team changes at work. You know, some small changes, some big changes, but some people’s day to days got pretty changed up. And of course, seating changes. KL Oh gosh, that can be a big doozy. How’s it going? JL [sighs] Well, I can say this. People really just don’t care for change. [All three laugh] SWB [still laughing] No! Not at all. JL You know, I’ve been thinking a lot recently about like why do people hate change so much? SWB Because we all have habits and comforts and then you take them away and it’s very hard because inside we’re all just delicate little flowers. [Katel laughs] SWB Seriously! We are! KL Yeah! SWB We are! It’s hard! KL You get used to something and you’re like ‘wait, now everything’s changing and how am I going to adapt and how am I going to deal with this.’ And I think yeah, it just, it feels like it— it can feel overwhelming and especially when it has to do with sort of changing folks that you’re working with or places you’re sitting. Like I think physical changes can impact you a lot. SWB And maybe also the thing with physical change like where you’re sitting is that nobody really realizes that it’s impacting them so much, right? People will underestimate how much of an impact that can have and so it’s the kind of change that can really affect your day to day, but that nobody’s kind of taking stock of and and it’s sort of assumed that that will just be fine. And I think that those changes are hard, right? The ones that we don’t invest enough time in planning for and understanding that there is an emotional component to it. The other thing I think about when it comes to change is that oftentimes people will know that the company needs to change and they’ll complain about the way it’s organized and it’s so hard to get anything done and etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And yet when you try to enact changes, it’s really difficult to get people on board. And I think part of that is also like change that people are choosing for themselves versus change that is being done to them. And the reality is, nobody likes to feel like there is something being done to them and so that’s one of the biggest things I always think about is how do you make this something that people feel a little bit included in or consulted on? Or at least how can you put it into terms that will help them see it as something that is going to help them in their day to day or take away some of the pain that they were experiencing in terms of workflow or whatever. And of course, that’s not always invested in and it’s also not always true! Like for some people it’s it’s not actually solving the personal problems they had even if it’s solving company problems. And then it’s like okay, how do you get people on board and sort of get them through that hard part of of shifting gears? JL One of the things we do with team changes that I think is really good is re-establish team norms. So sit down with everyone and everyone sort of discusses just like, what are the routines and what are the beliefs and the things that are important to people as a team. And I think that can really be helpful with new teammates to be like ‘here are things that are important to me, what are things that are important to you, and what’s it going to be like to live together at work?’ KL Yeah. SWB Do you have any sort of particular structure for doing something like that? JL We have the scrum masters run that and sort of they have a questionnaire list that brings stuff up. So, people eating lunch at their desks or how you use the shared space or the tables. So we—like I said, we switched the teams so we had to discuss ‘hey, can we still use this table to watch Jeopardy at lunch?’ [All three laugh] KL Very important! JL [laughing] Yeah! SWB Yeah, bullet point number one: Jeopardy! JL Right? But I mean also things like how you point stories. So pointing stories is basically a level of effort of how much an effort will take to get some sort of feature work done or something at work. We do daily stand ups at work where people tell you what your status are at meetings. You know, what time is that? Or are you doing them over Slack or like virtual stand ups? I think it can also be things like ‘here’s how I receive feedback best’ or ‘here’s how I think we should handle reviews of other people’s work.’ [5:18] SWB Yeah, I mean there’re so many questions that come up when there’s any kind of change like that. Since I don’t work in a company—but the kind of consulting I do with companies is always about change because invariably they are coming to me because they realize that their content or their user experience isn’t working as they want it to and the reason that it’s not working is always rooted in their not being able to make it work as a company. The way that they’re organized, the way they do things, who’s in charge of what. So, I have to talk to people about how their jobs are going to change and how things are going to be different. And I’m a big fan of having people practice some of those skills. So if it’s like okay, we are going to do a different kind of writing process where instead of—you know—you produce this content over here in this department and then you ship it out the door to this other department, there’s going to be a collaborative process. Well then, okay, we should practice that. And so we’ll do that in a workshop setting where we’ll pair people up and we’ll actually practice—how do we work on these things together, how do we share drafts and get feedback from each other? And I think that those kinds of low stakes practice sessions—because you’re not doing your real job, you’re just kind of practicing the new thing in a short period of time—I think that that can help people feel more comfortable with talking to people they aren’t used to talking with. JL Yeah and I mean I also think that it lets you feel more in control, and sometimes if you embrace that, if you know change is coming, you can do more exercises like that. And sort of prepare and be ready for this. So if you are expecting change or just knowing it can happen or knowing specifics, you can just be better ready I think to deal with it. KL I love thinking about kind of how a different perspective or sort of embracing a different kind of approach to the change can kind of help you through it. It makes me think of when I was at National Geographic, we would go through organization changes from time to time, but at a certain point, we actually went through a really big physical change where we went from everyone was in cubicles and not just cubes that were like low sort of where you can see everyone. It was like six feet tall and offices and everyone went to cubes that were like four feet high. So, everybody could see everybody—including managers, it was all sorts of like all different levels, and people were really freaked out. And one thing that we realized immediately was going from sort of a perceived sense of privacy to not having any, meant that we kind of had to think about the workplace etiquette a little differently and just no one had thought about that. Like no one. It wasn’t—you know—a matter of management doing something wrong or folks not thinking about it, it just was like ‘oh, wait we have to work together a little bit differently.’ And something I’ve actually seen work really well is at a co-working space I go to here in Philly. [Laughs] Someone made these little coasters that were like red light, green light. So basically you put your little green circle up if you were ready to chat to people or didn’t mind having people coming up to your desk, or you put the red one up if you were like ‘I’m going to be heads down and working on something.’ So—I just think this idea of kind of looking at things a little differently too can help. JL It’s like Fogo de Chão, [Katel laughs] the Brazilian steakhouse where green means bring me more meat and red means no I’ve had enough. KL [Laughing] Exactly. JL Yeah I mean I really like that because we used to say the universal sign was headphones, but I think we all know that doesn’t work. I was reading a bit on Harvard Business Review about this. They had some interesting things about finding humor in the situation, talk about problems more than feelings, don’t stress out about stressing out, focus on your values more than your fears—this idea that remembering that you’re you no matter what the change is can really help you. The change doesn’t have to define who you are. But something else I really liked was this like ‘don’t expect stability,’ where they talk about this 70’s research that was done where they studied two groups of managers and one group thrived and the other didn’t. And they said—you know—the adaptive leaders chose to view all changes as an expected part of the human experience, rather than as a tragic anomaly that victimizes unlucky people. KL Yeah! JL And then the struggling leaders were ones who were consumed by thoughts of quote on quote the good, old days. And they spent their energy trying to figure out why their luck had suddenly turned sour—because they kept looking back to something that wasn’t there anymore. SWB That’s so interesting too because that just reminds me so much of politics, right? You have so many people who are talking about the good, old days. And you’re like ‘wait, when were the good, old days and for whom exactly?’ And I think it’s true at work too where it’s like when people get obsessed with the good, old days, those are probably also mythical. Right? KL Yeah.. SWB They may have been good for some people in the organization but it’s undoubtedly that they weren’t working for other people. JL And the other thing that you might like if you dig in, you might be like ‘okay, well this part was good, but this part wasn’t’ and you can think about how to get that good part back. So if what you missed was that you sat with someone or you worked with someone really closely that you didn’t—you know—make sure you’re setting up time for lunch with them or maybe you set up pairing sessions where you still work together. But you know, trying to figure out what it is that you did like and then what are things you can apply moving on? What are the things that you’re excited about now? And what are the things maybe that you didn’t really like then? And maybe you didn’t get a chance to work on these exciting things or work with this person and now you do get to work with this new person or you do get to work on this new project. Or maybe this new seat allowed you to clear off the desk that you’ve been meaning to do. [Laughs] It’s funny, I was actually like—in the seating change I ended up not moving seats and I’m like ‘ugh, but I’ve got all these boxes I’ve got to bring down.’ [All laugh] KL [Laughing] You’re like ‘no, I need a move to help me reorganize.’ JL *[laughs] *Yeah, so just—like you’re saying. Trying to figure out really what are the positives moving forward? If there are things you will miss from those days, how do you keep them up and try to make the best going forward, as much as you can. I mean, It’s always hard and I don’t want to make it ever sound like that’s easy, but I think we can all do it. [11:26] [Music fades in, plays alone for five seconds, fades out] Time Trivia SWB So we’ve been talking a lot about change and our interviewee today definitely talks a lot about change in the tech industry as well so I’d like to get to that interview, but before we do, we have one last little segment. It is brand new, it is called Time Trivia. Because we talk about time on this show all the time! We need more time, we try to balance the time we have, we rant about how we are sometimes feeling a little bit unbalanced. And so our friends at Harvest wanted to see if we could stump each other when it comes to time. So let’s see. Katel, you’re up today and our theme is women authors. Are you ready? KL Oh gosh, let’s do it. JL Okay, Katel. Here is your first question. J.K. Rowling’s Harry Potter manuscript was rejected twelve times before it sold for an advance of only £1,500. Now she’s sold more than four hundred million copies. How long did it take her to write that manuscript? A) 5,000 hours, B) 15,000 hours, or C) 50,000 hours. KL Oh my gosh, this is already a lot of numbers. I’m going to say C) 50,000 hours. JL Katel— that is correct! KL [Gasps] Yayy! JL It took her six years to write Harry Potter. KL That’s a lot of hours! SWB We even tried to stump you with the twelve times £1,500, 400 million copies—you were unstumpable. Question two. More math, sorry. [Katel laughs] Emily Brontë published Wuthering Heights under the pseudonym Ellis Bell in 1847. If she’d been paid a freelance rate of $50 an hour – pretty good in 1847—how much would she have earned for her wild, passionate tale of Katherine and Heathcliff’s love? KL Ugh, I love this book. SWB Is it A) $740,000, B) $60,000, or C) $330,000? KL Ohhh my gosh, I’m going to go with B) $60,000 even though I feel like it should be more. SWB It is way more. It is actually $330,000 because it took her nine months to write that book, which is still a real short time considering how great that book is, ugh. KL Yeah, it is! I’m glad it was more than $60k. JL Okay, Katel, last question. Stephanie Myer’s classic tale of vampire love and lust—yes, Twilight—[laughs] has become a five-film series. If Stephanie had been billing her time to clients instead, how many 15 minute increments would she have billed? A) 870, B) 8,700, or C) 87,000? KL Ooh. 8,700? JL Katel, you know your 15 minute increments. That is correct! B) 8,700. SWB Two out of three, not bad. I think that’s a winning score! So, thank you so much to Harvest for sponsoring our time trivia today and for supporting women authors, which they do, and women podcasters. So check them out at getharvest.com. [Music fades in, plays alone for five seconds, fades out] [14:34] Interview: Tracy Chou SWB Tracy Chou is a wildly talented software engineer, who has also become a leading voice in tech industry diversity and inclusion conversations. She has been an engineer at Quora and Pinterest, an advisor to the US Digital Service and is one of the cofounders of an organization I am personally super fond of and that’s Project Include. She was named on Forbes’ 30 under 30 tech list in 2014 and she has been profiled in everything from Vogue to Mother Jones. So I am extremely excited to welcome Tracy to the show today. Tracy, thank you so much for being here. So, you went to Stanford, you interned at Facebook, you were one of the first engineers at Quora and one of the first engineers at Pinterest. That is kind of like a perfect Silicon Valley pedigree to a lot of people. Except, you’ve also written about feeling out of place during a lot of that time and not necessarily feeling like the industry was designed for you. And I’m wondering if we can start there—what was it like in the beginning of your career? And what was exciting about it and maybe what was not so great about it? Tracy Chou Yeah, so I grew up in the Bay Area surrounded by tech and I think that made it very easy for me to naturally fall into the tech industry. When I started working in tech I think I just accepted things for the way they were, including the lack of gender diversity, racial diversity. I honestly didn’t notice or think that things should be different. But there definitely were experiences I had when I started working that felt off, but I didn’t know how to articulate or pinpoint them. I tended to blame myself or think that there was something wrong with me when I had a lot of coworkers hitting on me all the time, for example when I was interning. And—you know—when I started working and felt like I might be treated differently, I assumed that it was because I wasn’t as qualified or there was something about the the way that I was approaching my work that was inferior and therefore caused people to treat me differently. So it took a while for me to put all the pieces together, and so I was just talking to a lot of other people in industry, other female engineers. One of my early conversations that really started to make me aware of these sorts of issues systemically, was with Tristan Walker who is an African American founder. And he had reached out to say that he had seen some of my writing about being female in engineering and wanted to share that he had similar experiences even though he wasn’t technical and he wasn’t a woman. Being the only black person in the room oftentimes felt as alienating and he could really identify with a lot of the things that I was saying. And that helped me to see how pervasive the sort of experience of marginalization is. Even though the tech industry is one that tries to pride itself on being so innovative and designing the future, being this engine of progress, there are so many ways in which it is still very backwards. SWB What year was that? That was like 2010,11,12 in there that you were really kind of getting going in your career and having those experiences? TC Yeah, the first sort of Silicon Valley tech internship I had was in 2007, but I started working full time in 2010. SWB So in 2013, you wrote this post on Medium that got kind of a lot of attention, where you were calling out the lack of data about women who are working in tech—and maybe specifically working in engineering, and the lack of success metrics attached to company’s diversity efforts. So if companies maybe had diversity efforts, they didn’t necessarily have any sense of whether they were working or not. And so that post kind of blew up and a lot of companies started sharing their numbers in a GitHub repo. And for listeners who aren’t familiar with GitHub repos, it’s just a site where you can work collaboratively usually on software projects, but you can also do things like collaboratively share data. And I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit about how that happened. First up, what made you sit down and write that blog post and did it feel risky when you did it? TC I had been working in the industry for a few years at that point and had gotten to know a number of the female engineers at other companies. And it started to be this thing that I would keep track of in the back of my head like which startups, which companies had which female engineers. Whenever I went into rooms I would automatically start counting, so it was just something that I was keeping tabs on personally. At the same time, I was looking at diversity at Pinterest and I wanted to make recommendations to the team about what we should do to be more diverse and inclusive. Facebook and Google were getting a lot of really good press around their parental leave policies, for example, and lots of companies were talking about how they were sending lots of people to the Grace Hopper conference, which is this big annual conference of women in computing. But I found it very hard to justify recommending any of those things to Pinterest because there were no success metrics. So these kind of thoughts were swirling around in my head when I went to Grace Hopper that year—this was October 2013—and I was at a breakfast where Sheryl Sandberg was speaking in front of the room and she made a comment about how the numbers of women in tech were dropping precipitously. Which, I didn’t disagree with the sentiment of, but it made me wonder what numbers she was talking about, because to my knowledge there were no numbers really out there. And so when I got home with all these thoughts rolling around my head, I ended up writing this post around diversity data. I was also reflecting on how the way we treated workforce issues was so different from the way we treated product development. As an engineer, I’m so used to having to have data for everything. We’re pretty religious about tracking all this data on our users [laughs] and understanding their behavior and that’s the way that we approach problem solving in product development. But the lack of data on the workforce side just felt so hypocritical to me. It seemed like it wasn’t really a problem that we wanted to solve if we weren’t even looking at the data. And of course I understood all the reasons why companies were skittish about even tracking the data because it would also mean that they would start to acknowledge the problem and have to solve it. But when I wrote the post, I wasn’t expecting much of a response. I didn’t think that it would be something that many people would even read, much less act on. I would also add though that in hindsight it seems like this post became big immediately and started this whole movement, but it did take some time as well. It was more of a slow, snowball effect. And so there were smaller companies that contributed their data first and the bigger companies took a little bit more time to process and work through what they wanted to do before they all started releasing their reports as well. [21:05] SWB When I look back on it, it kind of reminds me of in some ways like the moment that happened last year when Susan Fowler published her Uber blog post where there was this moment—the table had already been set for this conversation and it was just it pushed it over the edge or something. And I’m not sure if it’s exactly the same by any means, but it did really feel like a moment was happening and I’m curious, why do you think it ended up really snowballing? What was it about that moment that you think caught on? TC I think there was general appetite to do something about diversity and inclusion. More people were acknowledging that it was a problem. And I think the way that I framed it, which was, “let’s just start sharing some data,” made the problem seem a little bit more tractable. At least there was a first step that people could take. There was one thing that an individual contributor, for example, could do. So if you’re working at a small startup, you can look around the room and see how many engineers and how many female engineers and count that up and submit that data into the repository. And it felt easy, actionable, and also clear that this would contribute to a broader cause. I think I had a little bit more credibility as an engineer working at a company that a lot of people knew. And I think that piece is still important, I could speak from the perspective of being on the inside. And I think also I just got lucky. In a lot of ways I think of this project as a startup where startups have the markets that they’re going after, the products they’re trying to build. Sometimes they’re too early and the market isn’t ready for them, sometimes the product isn’t just quite right yet for people to want to engage with it. A lot of things have to come together all at once and luck, timing, all of that plays in. And somehow this Medium post in a row and the GitHub repository that I set up just happened to be just right at that time to capitalize on this increasing intent from people in the community to do something. And I think I was the right person at the right time to be pushing on that message. SWB If you’re an engineer or anybody who uses GitHub already, it’s also like, it feels sort of a natural place or a more comfortable place. TC Yeah, I think the GitHub angle was also interesting because it spoke more to engineers and people who write code, as opposed to HR. So it was getting engineers submitting their data through pull requests, and those people were less encumbered by thinking through, what are the legal ramifications and what are the HR risks here. They’re just thinking, like, this is the team that I work on, I want to report the data on the team. KL This is so fascinating to me too because in that post in 2013 you also focused really narrowly on defining the technical roles. You wanted companies to talk about actual engineers—not every other role, not business development or whatever. Sort of as a way of saying companies shouldn’t pad their numbers about the women they hire if women aren’t in those roles. And I see that point. I’m also curious if that perspective has shifted over the past few years or changed at all? TC One of the reasons why I wanted to be really specific about just tracking women in engineering is that for something that was crowdsourced, it had to be as simple as possible to contribute that data. The more you ask from people, the more drop off you get in that flow. So I wanted to make it super simple. But the other point about just looking at engineering versus the rest of it was that I did want to get away from that sort of padding of the numbers. And in the tech industry engineers are very much valued because they are the ones—we are the ones—building the products that are being sold, very close to the core value of the companies. So there’s this idea of looking at where the prestige is and how much inclusion you have there. Now that there’s more data coming out, we can see that even if you have a reasonable amount of representation across the companies, usually they’re lower ranked, few of those people are in decision-making roles. One interesting data point that I would love to see that is very hard to get is diversity on the cap table, and so that’s looking at ownership of the company—like who owns the shares. And I would suspect that ownership in these different tech companies skews very heavily white and male, because founders will have a lot of stock, early employees will have much more because the stock grants are risk-adjusted so people who are joining early will get much more stock, investors get stock, executives get a lot of stock. So even if your company has a lot of women, but they’re all in the lower-ranked, non-technical roles, the value that they get out of the company doing well is much less. So I really wanted to dig in on engineering within tech because that is so close to the core of Silicon Valley. [26:05] SWB One thing I’d love to ask about—we talked with Nicole Sanchez of Vaya Consulting back in June and her company focuses on diversity and inclusion in tech and consults with a lot of tech companies. And one of the things she said to us was that she flat out does not love the way that the numbers are being reported by tech companies right now, that there’s still a lot of gaming of the system because so much of the numbers is just about percentage of people in full and percentage of new hires, right? And that there’s not a lot of information about things like retention of those employees and seniority of those employees and, as you mentioned, who is actually getting a cut of these companies, right? Like who’s really taking home money? And so it sounds like—and I’m curious about your thoughts on this—but it sounds like the way that you were initially looking at some of these metrics was sort of really, really important at the time, but maybe isn’t quite enough to answer the questions that we have about how that industry is doing and to answer the questions that we have about whether things are getting better. TC Absolutely. I think we need much more comprehensive metrics and there is certainly gamification of the current metrics that get released. I think getting people even into the flow of releasing any data was a pretty big step. And I think it’s good to keep pushing on companies to release better data. So one obvious thing is intersectionality—instead of just putting gender on one side, race on one side, looking at those intersectional cuts and just see is it just white men and white women getting promoted? How does it look for women of color? Those sorts of questions can’t be answered if all the data is being split out. I’ve been relatively heartened by how much companies have been willing to release—enough that we can look at their data and see that in the last few years even if we’ve made some progress on gender diversity, we’ve had backsliding on racial diversity, which is not a good statement on the industry, but at least we have that data that we can even point that out and see that some of these diversity efforts aren’t uniformly benefitting different people and, in fact, are causing some harm to different groups. SWB So another thing I was really hoping to dig into that I think you kind of touched on a little bit when you were kind of talking about technical versus non-technical roles, is I’m also curious how you feel about who’s considered technical in Silicon Valley and sort of the valuing of engineers when you are also kind of thinking about sort of the appreciation for what it takes to build tech products? I was reading an article you wrote—I think last year—about realizing that it’s not really just about engineering, and realizing the value of learning things like understanding people and human behavior and communication skills and—you know—liberal arts and humanities. And the stuff that you hadn’t necessarily taken that seriously when you were in college as something that was important for ensuring that the things we’re making aren’t laced with bias or harmful to people, and being able to think through sort of the impact of our work. And so I’m curious how you think about those things together. Like okay—we value technical roles a lot and so it’s important to look at who are in the roles that we value the most. But are there also issues around the kinds of roles that are valued or the kinds of roles that even exist? And how do we sort of make sense of that? [30:25] TC Yeah, absolutely. I think our whole way of approaching technology building right now is pretty flawed. I think for a long time we’ve unquestioningly assumed that technology is always progress. So whatever we do in the software realm will be positive. And we’re seeing very clearly now that that’s not the case. It’s very easy for the software products that we’re building to be used for harm or used in ways that we didn’t anticipate. And for the people who are building these products, whether it’s the engineers running the code or everyone else involved, we do need to think more holistically and broadly and contextualize our work in society and understand what the impacts of technology are before we can assume that we’re doing good. Some people have drawn analogies after the election cycles in the last couple of years to the sorts of ethics considerations that other domains have had—so, chemical engineering or in physics. When the people in those fields realized that their work could be used to create weapons, they had to think pretty hard about doing science or doing this kind of research and I think the people in the tech industry and in software right now really need to have that same sort of introspection and deep questioning. For a long time in the tech industry, we’ve really downplayed the value of a humanities education and and I think that is problematic. You see that reflected in compensation. For example, who gets these big payouts, who gets really big salaries. It’s tricky because also the sorts of value of someone who can bring in terms of the ethical reasoning and product guidance, that work is not as easy to value, put a dollar amount on. It’s a little bit easier to look at what an engineer is producing or what a designer is producing and say this is the value of their work and it ties very directly to the final output and I think if the whole system is fundamentally shifted around, we can start to see the value that non-technical folks are bringing, then hopefully that is reflected in the compensation and payouts as well. At the same time, you have this very classic supply and demand type issues around sorts of talent that you need, so the engineering salaries will be high for a while because engineering is very obviously needed and there aren’t enough engineers to fill all the roles. Even if we were to recognize the value of the non technical work that needs to be done, if there is such a mismatch in supply and demand on the technical side, the salaries will still be higher there. So there’s a lot of things to address systemically, but I think one starting point even just within the companies that we’re looking at is trying to shift the culture to acknowledge the different viewpoints that different people from different educational backgrounds and different training can bring. SWB I think one of the things that’s also interesting and maybe compounds all of this, is the way that a lot of the kinds of roles that are more based in humanities or social sciences or that would benefit from that kind of background, they are tending to have a lot more representation of women in them, and so then you kind of have this interesting cross section of the skills are in less demand. Also we’re used to paying women less, or we’re used to putting women into sort of more caring roles versus rational roles, and so it’s hard to tease out all of those different issues that intertwine and result in gendering of who’s in what kinds of roles, and devaluing of some roles, and then also to have the conversation about well, “why is it that so many women are in these kinds of roles and not in these other kinds of roles?” And to be able to talk about all those things at the same time I think is really hard for a lot of people. It takes a lot of investment in the discussion to be able to pick apart things with that level of nuance, and I think a lot of the time organizations aren’t there yet. TC Yeah, I completely agree. [Laughs] There has been some research into when professions become more lucrative and prestigious how they—how the men tend to crowd the women out. So, there used to be more women in software engineering and they were kind of pushed out. So the 37% of CS degrees in 1984 went to women and it’s been declining, the percentage has been declining since then. But in other industries as well, one that I found kind of interesting was beer making used to be mostly women and then men found out that beer making was cool and it became all male brewmasters. Even in things like cooking, when men reach the top and become these top chefs, it’s very prestigious. Even though women still do most of the cooking around the world, it’s just not viewed as as prestigious or lucrative for them. So as you were saying, there’s all these interesting dynamics at play and it’s really hard to tease out specific effects. SWB Yeah totally—I think about some of the conversations I’ve had with folks when startups starting hiring people to do quote growth hacking and you’re like ‘wait a second—isn’t that—wait, aren’t they—isn’t that marketing? I think they’re doing marketing!’ [Laughter] But marketing was always more women in the field and growth hacking was this very hardcore bro kind of role. If anybody out there is a quote growth hacker as their title, I’m sorry if I’m making fun of your profession. But it is, it’s one of these made up titles that’s almost—I think—masculinized a lot of skill sets that were traditionally perceived as being more feminine. And then low and behold, those people are being paid a lot more money. TC I think you also see this reflected in the maker movement—where it’s been rebranded as this very male type of thing where you’re making things. But if you actually look at what is being done—creating things from the raw materials—that’s stuff that a lot of women have been doing in different domains, but it had to get rebranded for men to be super into it and for it to become prestigious. SWB Totally, like what’s not being a maker about being a knitter? TC Yeah! SWB You’re literally making things out of thread, right? [Laughs] TC Yep. SWB I’m amazed that we have not gotten to this yet because it’s so important, I want to talk about it. Okay, we have not talked about Project Include. So, you started doing all of this work to share this data that you were gathering and to talk about this issue. Can you tell us a little bit about how that grew into founding Project Include? TC Project Include was eight of us women in tech getting together a couple of years ago. So, there was a lot of discussion in the broader sphere about the problems and everything that was going wrong, but not nearly enough about solutions. And for the people that wanted to do the right thing, they still didn’t know what to do. So, we thought that the highest leverage thing we could do was write down our recommendations and resource—what we knew to be best practice around implementing diversity and inclusion. Our initial launch was just a website with a lot of recommendations—everything from defining culture, to implementing culture, to doing training, hiring, resolving conflicts, measuring progress, and also a framework to think about all those things, so it’s not just like pick and choose some of these tactics and apply them to your org and then you’ll be fine, but thinking through more holistically how to approach diversity and inclusion truly inclusively so it’s not just gender or just race or just one facet of diversity and then being very intentional about measuring progress. So, there was a bunch of these recommendations we wrote down. The feedback we got from the community was really positive and people wanted us to do more with it, which is how we ended up incorporating as a non profit and adding Startup Include as a program where we actually work with cohorts of companies on implementing these recommendations. But our hope is really to drive these solutions forward and we’re focused on startups for now. We think that the highest leverage opportunity is with startups before they become too big and are hard to steer—try to get those good practices and processes in early and hopefully some of the startups that are thinking about D&I early will end up becoming the big companies of tomorrow and they’ll already have baked in these best practices. We also acknowledge that what we think to be best practice now may change and so we really do want to build more of a community around these issues and solutions and kind of in the same way that open source software works where you put stuff out there, everyone can benefit from it. As they’re using it, they may think of ways to extend it or improve on it and they’re contributing that back to the community—we want that sort of a community around diversity and inclusion. SWB Yeah, that’s really interesting and I think it’s one thing to identify problems, it’s one thing to try to address them, but we clearly don’t really know how to fix this yet. So, I’m curious is there anything that you’ve found as you’ve been advising Project Include and sort of seeing it grow and adapt—is there anything that you’ve seen out there that you’ve really feel like you’ve been able to learn from and that’s helped to shape where you’re making recommendations now? [39:54] TC The biggest takeaways still are that you need metrics to understand where the opportunities are and also where things are going well. So we recommend that all companies do look at their data. It’s cool to see so many people trying out different things. I think it will take some amount of time before we learn which things really work in a long term sustainable way, but definitely excited to see lots of people experimenting with D&I now. SWB So Project Include, that was founded in 2016, right? You’ve got a couple of years of kind of starting to shape the organization and provide more than just your manifesto, but also the actual community and practices and working with these companies. So I’m excited to see what else comes out of that. TC Yeah, one thing we’ve been thinking a lot more about is how to achieve leverage impact across the industry and some of that is going to be working with other organizations. Earlier this year, a couple of us launched this project called Moving Forward to get venture capital firms to first of all, have anti-harassment policies and then publish them, make them available to founders and then also have points of contact as accountability. And so this came out of some of the #metoo harassment stuff that came out last year, where what we saw was that in that relationship between founders who were trying to raise money and venture capitalists that control this money, there is this gray zone of interaction where they’re not necessarily in a professional relationship yet. As in cases where there is a power imbalance, sometimes there are abuses of that power. So our idea was to push venture capital firms to be very explicit about what’s acceptable behavior between people that work at the firm and potential founders that they might want to be investing in or other people in the community. And so we launched Moving Forward, now have over one hundred firms that have their anti-harassment policies out there and the points of contact. This is something where I worked on that separate to Project Include, but we ended up realizing that there was a good opportunity for collaboration between Project Include and Moving Forward so I could serve as a little bit of that bridge. SWB That’s so cool, it’s sounds like you just have your hands into so many different parts of this problem and like trying to sort of untie the knot from lots of different angles, which I really love. TC Yeah, I mean there’s a lot to be done here—so lots of opportunity. KL That is so true. I feel like we’ve been talking a lot about your work as a diversity advocate and I just want to go back to you for a minute, because I saw you write a while ago that you don’t want to just work on diversity issues because you love to code and you like your life a lot more with that in it. How do you balance those things and stay excited about both? TC I still identify as a software engineer and someone that likes to build products and build things. Sometimes that means building teams and companies, but the diversity and inclusion piece will, I think, always be a part of my life and that conversation is still just so prominent in the industry, it’s hard to not take part of it. So that always be a part of what I do, but in my more full time capacity, I do like to be thinking just about technology, how powerful it is and how it can be used to hopefully impact the world for better. KL I’m also curious—you know—if the move from San Francisco to New York has had any impact? TC When so many things change all at once, it’s hard to say. I do think being in New York has helped to broaden my perspectives quite a bit. I’m not surrounded by tech people all the time and I like being around people who don’t think about the same things I do all the time and just to be surrounded by this greater diversity of people. SWB We talk a lot about place on the show because I feel like so many conversations in design or tech or publishing or whatever can be so limited to such narrow places, so I’m always interested in—you know—kinds of perspectives that people can bring in. So we are just about out of time and before we go, I wanted to say: Tracy, I have been personally inspired by your work for a long time and I know I’m not the only one. So I want to thank you for being on the show and ask you, is there anywhere that our listeners can better keep up with everything that you’re up to? TC The best place to keep up with me is Twitter, so I’m @triketora on Twitter. It’s t-r-i-k-e-t-o-r-a. I tweet a lot, so I also will not be offended if you follow and then unfollow because there’s too much going on, but that’s the best place to keep up with me. SWB Well I know that a lot of our listeners will definitely want to hear everything you have to say, even if you tweet all day. Thank you so much for being on the show. TC Ahh, thank you for having me! [music fades in, plays alone for five seconds, fades out] Career CHAT KL Hey y’all, time to talk careers with our friends at Shopify. This week we’ve got a tip on what to look for in a company from Shannon Gallagher, a product manager on the merchant analytics team. SG: Being a lifelong learner is super important to me. I need to constantly grow and push my boundaries. The nice thing is, that’s one of Shopify’s core values, too. When you make a positive impact here, you can move into new roles, new disciplines, and new spaces. That’s had a huge impact on my career. Two years ago, I was on the recruiting team. Now, I’m in product management… And I’m still expanding my knowledge and reaching for new goals every day. This kind of environment means I’ll never get bored—or feel like I’m stuck in one place. The point is, you’ll love work so much more if you’re with a company where the goal is growth! KL Thanks, Shannon! If you want to join a team where you can keep learning and make unexpected and wonderful moves—if you want—then you should check out Shopify. They’re growing globally, and they might just have the perfect role for you. See what’s new this week at shopify.com/careers. FYOTW JL Okay, so I’ve got a fuck yeah this week, ladies. KL Let’s hear it. JL Sutter and I are taking a vacation this week. SWB Fuck yeah! [Laughs] JL [Laughs] I know, I mean we could just stop there, mic drop. [All three laugh] JL But this vacation is to Wildwood, New Jersey—and for those unaware of the magic that is Wildwood—it’s a wonderful place at the Jersey Shore with boardwalk, food and funnel cake, and soft serve ice cream. And perhaps most importantly—it’s only a bit over an hour from Philadelphia. And here’s what we knew. We wanted some time to get away to ourselves, but we’re not really in the place where we wanted to plan something big or get on a flight. We just wanted some time with each other. That’s not because we don’t love our son, but two years ago we took a babymoon, which we gave ourselves a long weekend before a major change in our family. And we’re going to have that again soon, so we wanted to do something like that. But how do you get that time to yourselves when you have a toddler? So we were really thrown off and honestly I just—was like ‘that’s fine, we don’t really have to do it,’ like—not a big deal. But then this wild idea came to us. Why don’t we ask his parents if they’re available to watch Cooper for two nights? [45:48] KL What did they say? JL [Laughing] They said yes! KL Yaaay! JL And so it’s amazing what happens when you ask for help! KL That’s awesome. And also grandparents love to help in that way. JL It’s like—I don’t know why, but asking for what you need can be such a hard hurdle to overcome, but it can totally pay off awesomely, so I am saying fuck yeah to asking for help! KL That’s awesome. This actually resonates with me, too, because when I take time off at A Book Apart, I have to make a point of putting it on the calendar and asking folks to cover some stuff while I’m out so that I don’t have to worry about it or think about it. Because otherwise I would never actually really get time off. Like I have to actually set up that—you know—those boundaries and ask for help and I didn’t realize that until late in the game and I was like ‘oh, I actually need to raise my hand and do this so I can properly take some time off.’ So I love this. SWB I love this too because it’s actually a really good reminder for me. Because I think as both of you know—because you’ve called me on it before—I do not like to ask for help and I sort of take it almost as a point of pride to do it all myself. And that’s been good for me in some ways, but everybody needs help, myself included. And it’s one thing to ask for help, but it’s also another thing to actually accept the help and let go, right? Because part of what you’re saying, Katel, is that when you set that boundary where you’re like ‘okay, I’m taking a real vacation, can you please handle this for me’—you’re also saying ‘and I’m not going to check in so I need to be confident that it’s handled.’ KL [Laughing] Yeah. SWB Right? And I think that’s something that’s hard for me—just to fully let go and to just say ‘nope, this is handled and I’m not going to get all anxious about this, I’m just going to accept that it’s handled.’ And I realize it’s not a lack of trust—it’s like I trust them—but it’s almost like my brain doesn’t trust me enough to fully let go, you know? [Laughter] KL Yeah. SWB I have to remind myself like no no no no no, you asked for help, now your job is to take the help and then walk away. JL Yeah and it’s—it is hard to do things like that, but I think it gets better with practice. I mean, I read a bunch last year—some manager books and they talk a lot about just delegating things, delegating tasks and how important that is. But what’s really important is when you delegate the tasks, to trust that they’re going to get done and then be okay with the fact that whoever does them will probably veer from the way you were going to do it. So, we left an agenda or notes of what Coop’s normal day is for the grandparents and not to be like ‘you have to do it this way,’ but just so they have a guide-ish like ‘here’s what we would do.’ But I understand if you’re not going to do it exactly the same way and you know what, that’s okay. I’m okay with that, thank you for the help. I’m going to be able to now focus on other things that are more important than making sure that you did this exactly the way I would have done it. KL Yeah, I think that is so true. I’m thinking about this and I feel like we need to come up with an acronym for all the parts so… accept help, let go, enjoy—ALE! [Laughter] SWB That’s also what I would like to have on my next vacation. KL Yeah, exactly. [laughs] Well, fuck yeah to asking for help and to getting it, and we hope you enjoy. SWB Eat some funnel cake for me. JL Okay. [Laughing] You got it! SWB Well, that is it for this week’s episode of No, You Go—the show about being ambitious and sticking together. NYG is recorded in our home city of Philadelphia and is produced by Steph Colbourn. Our theme music is by The Diaphone. Thank you so much to Tracy Chou for being on the show today. If you like what you’ve been hearing, thank you so much, you’re the best. And you could be even more the best if you would take a moment to leave us a rating or review on your podcast listening app of choice and let your friends know about No, You Go because we’d love to have them here too. We’ll be back again next week! [music fades in, plays alone for 32 seconds, fades out to end]
Big week for social media. Colin Kaepernick tweets his new Nike ad, Nike retweets, and it’s on. Did Nike just make a big mistake, or did it lock in the loyalty of a valuable customer base? Plus, Facebook’s Sheryl Sandberg and Twitter’s Jack Dorsey go to Capitol Hill and … I know what you’re thinking, no, Dorsey didn’t go for a Civil War battle reenactment, though with that beard he’d make a dashing Rufus King – I’m just saying – with a bow tie? That’s fresh. No, they went for a Senate Intelligence Committee hearing, to talk about what they’re doing to make sure foreign powers aren’t futzing around with our Midterm elections, which are coming up in just two months. This is Fortt Knox, rich ideas and powerful people. I am Jon Fortt of CNBC. Charles Duhigg, Pulitzer Prize-winning contributor to the New York Times Magazine joins me; he has covered the legal upheaval coming to the social space. And Ellen Pao, CEO of Project Include, former CEO of Reddit, and canary in the “Me Too” coal mine joins us. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
CLOSE.IO WOMEN IN SALES INTERVIEW SERIES blog.close.io/topic/women-in-sales Host: Rebecca Luo, Close.io Account Executive rebecca@close.io, @rebeccatluo Listen: iTunes, Soundcloud, & your favorite podcast app Watch: YouTube Zainab Allawala (https://www.linkedin.com/in/zainaballawala/) is a Customer Success Account Executive at Help Scout (https://www.helpscout.net/). Zainab worked as a Strategic Account Executive at Survey Monkey and as an SMB Account Executive at Asana. She’s also previously worked as a recruiting coordinator for the Kiva.org Fellow Coordinator, at Facebook, and Google. Episode Highlights: How Zainab's political sciences studies shaped her curiosity in understanding what makes people tick in recruiting and sales How we can ensure accountability in order to be effective at diversity and inclusion? How to ensure that diversity and inclusivity is not just a vanity metric, and just not a photo-op? Resources: “Whistling Vivaldi: How Stereotypes Affect Us and What We Can Do (Issues of Our Time)”, Google’s re:work guide on un-biasing, & Project Include on ensuring inclusivity throughout the entire employee life cycle
Ellen Pao had a rough 2015. She lost her high-profile gender discrimination lawsuit against Kleiner Perkins, one of Silicon Valley’s biggest and most powerful venture capital firms. She also stepped down as CEO of Reddit after a tumultuous tenure in which she came under withering criticism for, among other things, shutting down online communities devoted to shaming fat people and posting upskirt photos. A few short years later, Pao’s 2015 looks prophetic. Her fight against Kleiner Perkins presaged much of the #MeToo movement. Her campaign to set some limits around what could and couldn’t be done on Reddit presaged the difficulties the social media giants are having as they try to rein in online harassment and fake news. Ellen Pao, I’ve come to think, was the canary in Silicon Valley’s coal mine. Pao is now the CEO of Project Include, and in this conversation, we talk about what’s changed since 2015 and how she thinks her 2015 would’ve been different if it had happened in this moment. We discuss how this era may be radicalizing young white men online and what, if anything, can be done about it. We talk about what it really takes to diversify a company — hint: much more than most companies are currently doing or are willing to do — as well as research showing diverse teams are more productive but less happy. And we look at how arguments about biological difference are used to justify the inequalities of our present society. Much of what's obsessing us in 2018 is rooted in fights Pao has been waging for far longer. It's worth hearing what she's learned. Recommended books: So You Want to Talk About Race by Ijeoma Oluo Beautiful Souls: The Courage and Conscience of Ordinary People in Extraordinary Times by Eyal Press Born a Crime by Trevor Noah Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
As tech companies come under fire for mishandling our data, with one blog post, a young software engineer forced these firms to share some of the most damning information they keep: the demographics of their workforce. Tracy Chou turned concepts familiar to her profession — like open sourcing, metrics reporting and benchmarking — to push for more diversity and inclusion throughout her industry. She discusses how the uphill battle continues through Project Include and why, in this case, a top-down approach from tech leaders is needed now.
As tech companies come under fire for mishandling our data, with one blog post, a young software engineer forced these firms to share some of the most damning information they keep: the demographics of their workforce. Tracy Chou turned concepts familiar to her profession - like open sourcing, metrics reporting and benchmarking - to push for more diversity and inclusion throughout her industry. She discusses how the uphill battle continues through Project Include and why, in this case, a top-down approach from tech leaders is needed now.
As tech companies come under fire for mishandling our data, with one blog post, a young software engineer forced these firms to share some of the most damning information they keep: the demographics of their workforce. Tracy Chou turned concepts familiar to her profession — like open sourcing, metrics reporting and benchmarking — to push for more diversity and inclusion throughout her industry. She discusses how the uphill battle continues through Project Include and why, in this case, a top-down approach from tech leaders is needed now.
On this week’s If Then, Slate’s April Glaser talks with Ellen Pao about sexism in Silicon Valley and why the tech industry hasn’t experienced the same fallout over accusations of sexual harassment and assault as the media and entertainment business. Pao discusses what gives her hope for tech and describes what she’s witnessed as CEO and founder of Project Include, a nonprofit organization dedicated to diversity in tech. They also discuss her time as interim CEO of Reddit and what platforms should do to combat hate speech and harassment on their sites. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
If Then | News on technology, Silicon Valley, politics, and tech policy
On this week’s If Then, Slate’s April Glaser talks with Ellen Pao about sexism in Silicon Valley and why the tech industry hasn’t experienced the same fallout over accusations of sexual harassment and assault as the media and entertainment business. Pao discusses what gives her hope for tech and describes what she’s witnessed as CEO and founder of Project Include, a nonprofit organization dedicated to diversity in tech. They also discuss her time as interim CEO of Reddit and what platforms should do to combat hate speech and harassment on their sites. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
This week Rafael and I get lost in Google’s increasingly large and increasingly subjective maze of products and controversies, Rafael almost invents a new musical genre and Jeremy neglects the emotional needs of his power outlets. Metrograph, Rafael’s new favourite local theatre http://metrograph.com/ Zabriskie Point, Michelangelo Antonioni http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066601/ Cancel Netflix https://www.netflix.com/CancelPlan Alien Covenant on Rotten Tomatoes https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/alien_covenant/ Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 on RT https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/guardians_of_the_galaxy_vol_2/ Frank Costanza https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gVi-kIVY4I Farewell Hulu, Hello Criterion Collection https://www.criterion.com/current/posts/4293-farewell-hulu-hello-criterion-channel Tiff Bell Lightbox Theatre https://www.tiff.net/ David Ross https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHk0XatMV6s Radical Candor, Kim Scott https://www.radicalcandor.com/ Loose Lips Sink Ships https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loose_lips_sink_ships James Damore’s Google Memo https://www.wired.com/story/the-pernicious-science-of-james-damores-google-memo/ Culture Amp https://www.cultureamp.com/ Project Include http://projectinclude.org/ Alphabet https://abc.xyz/ History of high heel shoes http://history-of-heels.weebly.com/origins-of-high-heels.html Playground http://playground.global/ Andy Rubin wants to unleash AI on the world https://www.wired.com/2016/02/android-inventor-andy-rubin-playground-artificial-intelligence/ Google X, the moonshot company https://x.company/ Google Wave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Wave Slack https://slack.com Asana https://asana.com/ Workplace by Facebook https://www.facebook.com/workplace Bing https://www.bing.com/ DuckDuckGo https://duckduckgo.com/ Back Rub http://www.businessinsider.com/the-true-story-behind-googles-first-name-backrub-2015-10 How Meta Tags affect search engines http://www.wordstream.com/meta-tags Google RankBrain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RankBrain 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing https://www.slideshare.net/GrahamMcInnes1/22-immutable-laws-of-marketing Killer robots: World’s top AI and robotics companies urge United Nations to ban lethal autonomous weapons https://futureoflife.org/2017/08/20/killer-robots-worlds-top-ai-robotics-companies-urge-united-nations-ban-lethal-autonomous-weapons/ Noise Dub https://www.last.fm/tag/noise+dub Postinternet http://www.artspace.com/magazine/interviews_features/trend_report/post_internet_art-52138 Google’s Associate Product Manager Program https://www.wired.com/2012/07/marissas-secret-weapon-for-recruiting-new-yahoo-talent/ In The Plex: How Google Thinks, Works, and Shapes Our Lives https://www.amazon.com/Plex-Google-Thinks-Works-Shapes/dp/1416596585/ Swype keyboard http://www.swype.com/ Android fragmentation http://bgr.com/2017/07/07/android-market-share-versions-july-2017/ Self Employment in the USA (10.1%) https://www.bls.gov/spotlight/2016/self-employment-in-the-united-states/pdf/self-employment-in-the-united-states.pdf Tom’s gel toothpaste https://www.amazon.com/Maine-Fluoride-Natural-Toothpaste-Spearmint/dp/B01IAE0OX0/ref=sr_1_2_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1503877330&sr=8-2&keywords=tom%27s+gel+toothpaste+8+pack Prime Pantry https://www.amazon.com/Prime-Pantry/ Constant Dullaart http://constantdullaart.com/ See Saw – Gallery Guide https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/see-saw-gallery-guide/id791643418?mt=8 Avertising Break – Zirkel http://zirkelgame.com/ Google 20% time is dead https://9to5google.com/2013/08/16/googles-20-percent-time-birthplace-of-gmail-google-maps-adsense-now-effectively-dead/ Rafael Rozendaal image search https://www.google.ca/search?q=rafael+rozendaal&rlz=1C5CHFA_enCA727CA728&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9-6ygzfjVAhVl3IMKHQS3C0sQ_AUICigB&biw=1262&bih=882 Taylor Swift deletes social media https://www.theverge.com/tldr/2017/8/18/16169342/taylor-swift-social-media-black-out-reddit-theories Field Recording: Pyry Qvick, Tampere, Finland
硅谷的性别歧视风波愈演愈烈，并引发了广泛对话。在风险投资领域，以及更广泛的男性主导的技术界，女性究竟面临怎样的挑战？硅谷媒体 The Information 长期关注性别话题，记者张煜南和我们分享了她的观察和看法。 出场人物 张晶，《第一财经周刊》驻纽约代表 张煜南，The Information 驻香港记者，负责中国创投相关报道。可以通过 yunan@theinformation.com 联系到她。 节目中提到的关键信息 "Women in Tech Speak Frankly on Culture of Sexual Harassment" (http://nyti.ms/2tv82Hw) "Silicon Valley Women Tell of VC's Unwanted Advances" (http://bit.ly/2s4Qyxz) KPCB和鲍康如（Ellen Pao）事件 (http://bit.ly/2v1Au1T) 鲍康如出版新书《Reset》讲述自己的故事 (http://bit.ly/2wvfILw) 《向前一步》（Lean In） (http://bit.ly/2jW7D9S) 非营利组织「容纳计划」（Project Include）期待让硅谷技术公司更多元 (http://bit.ly/1SMEAPQ) "Why is Silicon Valley so Awful to Women?" (http://theatln.tc/2lWVlTg) Special Guest: 张煜南.
If throwing money at problems solved them, much of corporate America would look like a rainbow coalition by now. Companies have poured millions into diversity initiatives with the aim of recruiting and retaining more women, minorities and people from underrepresented groups. But a lot of what they’ve done hasn’t worked. On this week’s Game Plan, Francesca and Rebecca ask whether companies are doing enough—and doing the right things—to diversify their staffs. Ellen Pao, former CEO of Reddit, joins to talk about Project Include, a diversity consultancy she co-founded, and how it is tackling the complex problems that keep many workforces largely male and white in a new (and maybe better?) way.
Courtney R. Snowden (@DMGEOSnowden) is Deputy Mayor for Greater Economic Opportunity for the District of Columbia. A sixth-generation Washingtonian born at Howard University Hospital, Courtney was raised in the Shepherd Park neighborhood of Ward 4, and now lives east of the river (EOTR) in Ward 7 with her young son, Malik. The Washington Post has recognized Courtney for her “keen understanding of the need to connect neighborhoods if the city is to thrive. She understands policy, is adept at building coalitions and is both smart and passionate about education reform.” Courtney is a graduate of DC Public Schools and received her B.A. in Political Science in 2000 from Beloit College. After graduating, Courtney returned home to the District to join the legislative staff of Congresswoman Tammy Baldwin (D-WI) on Capitol Hill. Courtney has devoted her life to making Washington, DC, a better place for all its residents, corner to corner. She has a record of coalition building and bringing people from different backgrounds together from across the city. As a principal at The Raben Group, a premiere progressive government relations firm, she advises the firm's clients on a variety of public policy issues through direct lobbying, strategic planning, and coalition building. Her diverse client portfolio includes Google, the Committee for Education Funding, the National Urban League, and Graham Holdings. An active leader in the city's LGBT and African-American communities and a staunch public education advocate, Courtney served as the first female board chair of DC Black Pride in 2008, and was an active member of the DC GLBT Advisory Committee. In this episode, we discussed: how the City of Washington has changed over time and DC Mayor Muriel Bowser's economic development vision going forward. how the Mayor's office is working with educators to prepare students who live in the District for careers in Science, Technology, Engineering and Math (STEM). efforts in the District to promote diversity and inclusion in the City's growing start-up sector. Resources: DC.gov - Office of the Deputy Mayor for Greater Economic Opportunity Americanah by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie On Beauty by Zadie Smith NEWS ROUNDUP The FCC has fined Comcast $2.3 million--the largest ever civil penalty on a cable operator for a practice called “negative option billing” where customers were charged for equipment and services they never requested. Comcast's response to the fine? Sorry--we didn't do anything wrong--it's just that we had some isolated incidents where our customer service representatives were just kind of confusing. Richard Gonzalez has the story for NPR. ---- The nonprofit Center for Election Innovation and Research is crediting Facebook for registering thousands of new voters nationwide. Just in California, the 17-word reminder led to over 123,000 new voter registrations on the first day alone. While Facebook was unable to provide demographic data about the new registrations, Facebook's users are generally seen as leaning female, young and Democratic. Niraj Chokshi has the story in The New York Times. ---- The American Civil Liberties Union, Center for Media Justice and Color of Change reported last week that Facebook, Instagram and Twitter provided data access to a company called Geofeedia--a company sells a product that monitors social media activity, and which has been marketed to law enforcement officials looking for intel on protesters. The advocacy groups obtained emails of Geofeedia corresponding with law enforcement about the success the company has had monitoring recent protests in Ferguson and elsewhere. Facebook and Instagram have cut off Geofeedia's access to its main public feeds. Twitter hasn't cut off access, but the ACLU's press release notes the social media network has taken steps to rein in Geofeedia. ---- Finally, it looks like billionaire investor Peter Thiel has alienated himself from a major diversity and inclusion partner after he donated $1.25 million to Donald Trump, days after Trump was caught on tape making lewd comments about sexually assaulting women. Project Include co-Founder Ellen Pao, a leader in the tech diversity debate in Silicon Valley, wrote in a Medium post that she was cutting ties with the incubator Peter Thiel Founded--Y Combinator, saying Project Include and Y Combinator's values are no longer aligned given Thiel's continued affiliation with Y Combinator.
Tracy Chou is a software engineer and was most recently at Pinterest, where she worked on the home feed and recommendations team, ads and web teams, API, growth and much more! Before Pinterest, Tracy worked at Quora, also as one of the first engineering hires there. Tracy is well-known for her work pushing for diversity in tech. In 2013, she helped kick off the wave of tech companies that began to disclose their data about the diversity within their companies through a Github repository. Tracy is now a founding member of Project Include and is focused on driving solutions in the space. She was named Forbes Tech 30 under 30 in 2014 and has been profiled in Vogue and WIRED for her advocacy. Tracy is also an advisor to Homebrew VC and on reserve with the U.S. Digital Service. She joins us to share more about her story, how she got into tech and startups, some of the amazing things she’s been able to accomplish as part of Quora and Pinterest, how she’s been challenging the status quo and championing for diversity in tech, and much more!
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