The Net Promoter System Podcast – Customer Experience Insights from Loyalty Leaders

Episode 246: The AI future of customer service is already here—and it's better than most people think. In this episode, Deon Nicholas, President and Executive Chairman of Forethought, joins host Rob Markey to show us how some companies are already using AI to resolve customer issues end-to-end in ways we could barely imagine just a couple of years ago. Deon introduces us to agentic AI: an emerging class of intelligent agents that take real action, integrate across enterprise systems, and adapt to each customer's needs. Drawing on his experience building Forethought's platform, Deon reveals how these systems are resolving issues, improving customer satisfaction, and going live in as little as 1 to 30 days. This isn't a future promise. It's happening now. The episode explores the architecture behind agentic AI, including Forethought's use of multi-agent systems, plain-language Autoflows, and a Discover model that learns company policies from historical tickets and call logs. Rob and Deon dig into risk, hallucination, and data privacy concerns—and how to address them without six-month implementation timelines. A surprising insight? Forethought sometimes adds a delay to its lightning-fast responses. Why? To build trust through operational transparency. Deon explains how even loading dots can reassure customers that the system is working on their behalf. Guest: Deon Nicholas, Founder, President, and Executive Chairman, Forethought Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company Give Us Feedback: Help us improve the podcast (feedback link) Want to get in touch? Send a note to host Rob Markey. Key Topics Covered [1:00] Agentic AI vs. traditional chatbots [2:00] Why chatbots fail regarding decision trees and limitations [4:00] Real-time AI issue resolution and automation [7:00] AI integration with enterprise systems [12:00] Fast deployment and autoflow policy learning [15:00] Multi-agent AI systems and scalability [18:00] AI adoption challenges and business integration [22:00] Balancing AI automation and human agent handoffs [27:00] Cost comparison of AI vs. business process outsourcing [30:00] Rapid AI deployment and testing strategies Time-stamped Notable Quotes [4:00]  “With an agentic AI, you have something that has learned from your business policies. It's read through hundreds of thousands of past conversations, knows the vernacular, knows how to respond, and knows the business policy. So, instead of getting a menu of items, you just have a conversation.” [13:00]  “You probably already have hundreds of thousands of conversations, whether they're sitting in transcripts, support tickets, [or] call recordings. It turns out that is a wealth of data that can train an AI in such a way that you don't need to manually create all these rules and decision trees and workflows.” [ 16:00] “When we first launched our LLM-native AI two years ago, there were some hallucinations. But we've been able to go through, evaluate the model, fine-tune the model, and now we're at the point where it rarely happens. What we typically say to everyone is: ‘Test it. Test it before you launch it, run a 14-day free trial, proof of value, run us against anyone else in the market.'” [21:00]  “What's beautiful about all of this is now you get to the point where AI can become embedded into the ecosystem—and, ironically, make all of these human experiences better.” [21:00] “AI is making it so that when it's time to actually hand off to a human agent, you're far less frustrated, or far less likely to be frustrated. And then the humans will now be resolving issues that require more judgment and more empathy.”

Episode 245: What happens when digital transformation becomes table stakes—and customer relationships become the real differentiator? Eduardo Roma, Global Head of Customer Experience Transformation at Bain, believes companies that spent years optimizing transactions and digitizing every interaction are now unprepared for what matters most: becoming more humanized. The human element is now critical, and efficiency can't be mistaken for real connection. Eduardo outlines three forces reshaping customer experience: Digital is now table stakes, customer power has surged to new heights, and predictive, data-driven relationships are setting brands apart.  Too many organizations still equate digitization with progress while missing what actually builds loyalty: emotional relevance, early engagement, and personalized support that evolves alongside customer needs. Learn how leading firms are using data to build trust, earn loyalty, and deliver meaningful value—especially in the earliest moments of the customer relationship. And discover how to make customer engagement a true driver of growth. Guest: Eduardo Roma, Partner, Bain & Company, Global Head of Customer Experience Transformation Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company Give us feedback: Customer Confidential Podcast Feedback Send us a note: Contact Rob Topics Covered: 00:30 – Why customer experience is at an inflection point 01:00 – Digital experiences are now table stakes 02:00 – Generative AI and the shift in customer power 03:10 – Moving from reactive to proactive experience management 05:00 – The limits of digitization when every app feels the same 07:00 – Personalization that creates value, not just sells more 08:30 – The problem with local optimization in product teams 11:15 – Digital capture vs. earning engagement 14:00 – Humanizing experiences with data and behavioral science 17:00 – Creating customer value creation plans 20:00 – How new challengers are forcing incumbents to rethink CX 21:30 – Predictive, proactive engagement and relationship signals 24:00 – Why CX professionals must speak the language of value Notable Quotes: “Now that [companies] have digitized experiences, they really need to humanize those experiences through data. And what I mean by that is how to make interactions with customers much more meaningful, much more relevant, [and] much more personalized in a way that those interactions build enduring relationships with customers.” “There are way too many degrees of separation of people who understand the customers and where some of the decisions are being made. It is important for organizations to be aware of those blind spots and to close those gaps.” “The whole idea of just focusing on the experience, we need to move people beyond that. Move to relationships, to stop and think where we are on this experience pointing in time. We need a more holistic view.”  ”Now, customers are much more in control. That is [a] transformation of organizations, when they think about the reach and relevance of the relationship they have with customers.” Additional Resources: Transforming Customer Experience with AI: A Guide to Sustainable Growth (A webinar by Eduardo Roma, Rob Markey, and Phil Sager) Eduardo Roma on Three Changes on Customer Engagement (Video located on Eduardo's profile page)

Episode 244: What defines a differentiated customer experience? It starts with a clear framework for measuring intangible value and making calculated trade-offs. In this special tribute show, we revisit our 2016 conversation with Eric Almquist, a former partner at Bain & Company, on the Elements of Value. This framework transforms how businesses understand loyalty, brand equity, and growth. Inspired by Maslow's hierarchy of needs, Eric made value practical, categorizing 30 elements into functional, emotional, life-changing, and social impact levels. His research connected the dots between delivering on multiple elements and revenue growth. Learn how successful industry leaders deliberately layer value over time and how even in B2B, solutions that ease complexity can offer emotional benefits, such as hope. Eric was a pioneer in customer analytics and segmentation, his mantra being: What do customers truly value? His valuable insights continue to shape business thinking. Today we celebrate his legacy in customer experience and brand strategy. Guest: Eric Almquist, former partner, Strategy & Marketing practice, Bain & Company Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company Give Us Feedback: We'd love to hear from you. Help us enhance your podcast experience by providing feedback here in our listener survey. Want to get in touch? Send a note to host Rob Markey: https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob Topics Covered: [00:01:00] Eric Almquist discusses the Elements of Value and why they were created to help managers better understand demand [00:02:00] Eric's contributions to customer analytics, segmentation, and experimental design [00:03:00] How the Elements of Value were first developed, inspired by questions about what customers truly value [00:04:00] The connection between the Elements of Value and Maslow's hierarchy of needs and why Maslow's model is hard to apply in business [00:05:00] The four levels of the Elements of Value: functional, emotional, life-changing, and social impact [00:06:00] The impact of delivering multiple elements of value on revenue growth and customer advocacy [00:07:00] The 2016 Harvard Business Review article and how the framework connects to Net Promoter Score℠ [00:08:00] Unexpected insights from the research, including how B2B solutions can provide emotional value, such as hope [00:09:00] The evolution of the framework, from 16 to 36 elements over time [00:10:00] How value can persist across generations, such as in heirlooms and wealth preservation [00:11:00] The role of brand strategy and the caution against over-promising value in marketing [00:12:00] Closing remarks from Rob Markey, reflecting on Eric Almquist's impact and legacy Time-stamped Notable Quotes: [00:01:00] "There's a fundamental asymmetry within management that it's easier to manage the cost side than it is the demand side, because the cost, you can see, you can quantify. It's much harder to know how to increase demand, and how to increase revenue. That asymmetry is what's motivated me to develop the elements of value.” [00:04:00] "Maslow's hierarchy of needs was developed in the mid-20th century. So as we're drawing on something very old, when I talk to audiences, I'll ask them if they know Maslow's hierarchy of needs and all the hands go up, and then I ask them how many of you have used it to, say, improve a product or think of a new product, and the hands tend to go down. The reason is that it's pretty academic." [00:05:00] "We began to think about functional elements of value, emotional elements of value that could be life-changing. Following Maslow's hierarchy, the top of the pyramid, the highest level of motivation, was around altruism or charitable giving. We call that social impact." [00:07:00] "If you are delivering on zero elements of value by our threshold definition, revenue growth tends to be around negative 2%. If you're delivering on four or more elements of value, the average is 13%. Eight of the original 47 companies that we looked at were delivering on zero elements of value at our threshold. The truth is if you're delivering on zero elements of value for very long, you're probably going to be crushed by a competitor or be acquired, would be my guess." [00:09:00] "[The elements of value] really began as a thought experiment. I began thinking about all the work that I had done over all the decades, thinking about what I've heard in focus groups and interviews and observations and surveys. I began to realize value is not infinitely complex nor mysterious. There are actually things that you can point to that are appealing or not appealing.” Additional information on what was discussed in today's episode: HBR article, The Elements of Value, by Eric Almquist, John Senior, and Nicolas Bloch: https://hbr.org/2016/09/the-elements-of-value  Eric's perspective on the elements of value: https://www.bain.com/insights/eric-almquist-managing-the-elements-of-value-video/ Episode 117 of Customer Confidential with Eric, What Do B2B Customers Want?: https://baincompany.libsyn.com/ep-117-eric-almquist-what-do-b2b-customers-want  Explore the B2C elements of value in more detail here: https://www.bain.com/insights/elements-of-value-interactive 

Episode 243: At Emory University, 99% of donations come from just 8% of donors. It's a small alumni minority funding almost the majority of the university. This raises a big question: How do you cultivate loyalty among everyone else? In this episode, Emory's Chief Experience Officer, Cutler Andrews, describes how they're dismantling silos—by merging alumni relations, donor relations, and events—to offer a cohesive experience. They're seeing success. Within five years, Emory's engagement nearly doubled from 28,000 to 54,000 participating alumni. Learn how Emory's four engagement metrics (philanthropy, attendance, communications, and volunteering) feed a carefully designed funnel, turning casual alumni into potential major donors. We also explore how tracking personal preferences and tailoring interactions drives lasting impact. It's about balancing short-term fundraising with authentic relationships. How do you nurture entrepreneurs—those overlooked until “cash out”—and future big givers, without neglecting current donors? Learn how thoughtful engagement fosters trust, broadens participation, and reduces reliance on a few generous supporters. Guest: Cutler Andrews, Chief Experience Officer & Senior Associate Vice President, Emory University Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company Give Us Feedback: We'd love to hear from you. Help us enhance your podcast experience by providing feedback here in our listener survey. Want to get in touch? Send a note to host Rob Markey: https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob Time-stamped List of Topics Covered: - [00:02:19 - 00:03:00] Merging engagement, communications, and marketing: Cutler describes the creation of a unified team to orchestrate all donor-facing activities under one umbrella. - [00:03:39 - 00:04:26] Overcoming siloed teams: How sending separate letters, emails, and event invites—without coordination—diminishes the overall constituent experience. - [00:07:51 - 00:09:00] Engagement vs. fundraising: Cutler explains why alumni relations are often viewed as more feel-good, whereas fundraising may often be seen as purely transactional. - [00:14:36 - 00:16:00] Emory's four engagement buckets: How Emory measures engagement via philanthropy, attendance, communications, and volunteering—and why each bucket matters. - [00:27:00 - 00:29:00] The risk of relying on a tiny donor base: Cutler points out that roughly 99% of their funding comes from around 8% of donors, underscoring the need to reach that remaining 92%. Time-stamped Notable Quotes: [00:00:27] “Ninety-nine percent of our money comes from seven or eight percent of our donors. That's scary, because if that keeps getting smaller, it's a ton of risk.” [00:01:03] “We have all of these KPIs and goals, and the only question people ask is, ‘How much money [have you] raised?' That's part of the story, but that is the output of a greater story.” [00:06:22] “Yes, large gifts help, but alumni engagement has to serve that mission, too. It can't just be, ‘Make our alumni community feel good and give them programs.' We have to ask the questions, ‘To what end? To what value?'” [00:27:10] “All of a sudden there's an exit and there's an influx of cash, and then everybody's jumping on. It's like, ‘You haven't talked to this person at all—why do you think they'll want to engage now?' It shouldn't always be because, ‘I know in ten years, they might make a gift.'” [00:33:10] “We've seen engagement go from 28,000 alumni to 54,000 alumni in five years because of that intentionality, that creativity, and thinking through that if somebody does a great event over here, but if we can't market it over here, it's not going to do any good.”

Episode 242: Wells Fargo has established a clear position on artificial intelligence: If you can't explain how an AI model works, you shouldn't deploy it. This stance challenges the common assumption that black box algorithms are acceptable costs of advanced AI capabilities. In this episode, Kunal Madhok, Head of Data, Analytics, and AI for Wells Fargo's consumer business, reveals how the bank has operationalized this philosophy to enhance customer experiences while maintaining rigorous standards for model explainability and ethical deployment. The stakes for financial institutions are substantial. As banking becomes increasingly digitized, organizations must balance sophisticated personalization with transparency and trust. Wells Fargo's approach demonstrates that explainability isn't merely about regulatory compliance—it's a fundamental driver of business value and customer trust. Through rigorous review processes and a commitment to "plain English" explanations of algorithmic decisions, Wells Fargo ensures its models remain logical, aligned with business objectives, and comprehensible to stakeholders at all levels. This transparency serves multiple purposes: avoiding unintended consequences, maintaining human oversight of automated systems, and ensuring data-driven decisions actually drive business value. Discover how Wells Fargo's insistence on explainable AI is reshaping everything from product recommendations to customer service, while setting new standards for responsible innovation in financial services. Guest: Kunal Madhok, EVP, Head of Data, Analytics and AI, Wells Fargo Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company Give Us Feedback: We'd love to hear from you. Help us enhance your podcast experience by providing feedback here in our listener survey: http://bit.ly/CCPodcastFeedback Want to get in touch? Send a note to host Rob Markey: https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob Time-stamped List of Topics Covered: [00:04:13] Integrating data science into business decisions and ensuring data-driven insights [00:07:29] Kunal's vision for personalization and delivering relevant, value-based products [00:09:22] Wells Fargo's ability to leverage life events and transactional data to better serve customers [00:11:05] Democratizing financial advice and offering tailored advice based on customer needs [00:16:53] Using live experimentation and AI models to tailor product offers and marketing [00:19:17] Strategic investment decisions for new product launches and capacity reservations using simulations [00:22:45] Explainability, and what this looks like in action [00:37:22] Strategies around servicing interactions and the key challenges around this work that demand solving Time-stamped Notable Quotes: [00:00:27] “When a customer walks into a bank, they're expecting you to know them.” [00:04:19] “Part of my role is to make sure we use data science in every business decision we make as an organization. And what that means is not just the quality and the fidelity of data, but also that decisions are made not based on intuition, but on real data outcomes.” 00:07:29] "Good personalization is: We'll give you the right product based on your interests and your needs, and we'll deliver it in a way that you want. Which is the right channel, the right offers.” [00:12:17] “If we can add value to our customers, they expect it. I'm sure when you turn on [a streaming service] today, it gives you a whole bunch of movies, shows to watch, curated just for you, based on your past history. And if they do it well, you actually like that, because you know the next five things to watch. And while that's in entertainment—and financial products are a very different space—that's the bar our customers are expecting us to meet.” [00:22:45] “As we train our talent, we've put a high bar on explainability of the work they do.”

Episode 241: When is mastering the basics a differentiator? In an industry where complexity is the norm, Prudential Group Insurance has made a counterintuitive strategic choice. While many companies chase innovation through digital transformation and enhanced features, Prudential has discovered that operational excellence—the "absence of noise"—can be a more powerful differentiator. Abhii Parakh and Mike Estep reveal why group insurance demands a fundamentally different approach to customer experience than high-touch industries like hospitality or travel. For Prudential, success depends not on bells and whistles, but on excelling at the foundational elements: reliable execution, friction-free processes, and consistent delivery. "The absence of noise is a tremendous win," Mike emphasizes. "That's not the long-term goal for us. But if you don't get those things right, you won't get the chance to get to the nirvana state where you are separating yourself from the competition because of the experiences you created.” Learn how Prudential delivers seamless experiences across its ecosystem of brokers, employers, and employees by prioritizing simplicity and operational excellence. Discover why, in complex B2B2C environments, flawless execution of core processes can be a more powerful differentiator than feature innovation. Guests: Abhii Parakh, Head of Customer Experience, Prudential Financial, and Mike Estep, President, Group Insurance, Prudential Financial Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company Give Us Feedback: We'd love to hear from you. Help us enhance your podcast experience by providing feedback here in our listener survey: https://bit.ly/CCPodcastFeedback Want to get in touch? Send a note to host Rob Markey: https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob Time-stamped List of Topics Covered: [00:01:16] Overview of group insurance products [00:03:21] The broker, employer, and employee experience [00:06:46] Employees' challenges with insurance products [00:10:21] Eliminating friction to enable differentiation [00:19:02] Customer experience as a growth driver [00:35:48] Overcoming challenges in survey feedback Time-stamped Notable Quotes: [00:05:24] “Modern life is exhausting. The last thing you want to deal with is friction with your group insurance carrier—about reports, getting your commission check, or that we're screwing up the bill and you're getting heat from that client. It doesn't need to be rocket science. There's beauty in simplicity and intuitive experiences that are void of friction.” [00:08:31] “The absence of noise is a tremendous win. That's not the long-term goal for us. But if you don't get those things right, you won't get the chance to get to the nirvana state where you are separating yourself from the competition because of the experiences you created.” [14:01] “Feedback—while painful to hear—is something you can use as a tool to help get other people in the organization to respond and make improvements that will help you, personally, be successful because they're resolving problems of your customers.”

Episode 240: How has the Chief Customer Officer (CCO) role evolved over time? Traditionally focused on tracking metrics, CCOs now play a proactive and forward-facing role in driving business innovation. In this episode, Caroline Lombardi, Global Head of the Hospitality & Leisure Practice at Egon Zehnder, explores the CCO role's dramatic evolution. Customer experience—no longer just about tracking satisfaction or retention—has become a valuable springboard for boosting revenue and gaining a competitive edge. Successful CCOs are skilled in holistic customer experiences, from call centers to broader operations. Caroline outlines three emerging CCO models: the Operational Leader who drives change, the Innovator who turns data into growth, and the CEO Successor who integrates customer experience into business strategies. Discover how CCOs are shaping customer interactions and guiding the strategic direction of organizations. And learn why they must adopt a growth mindset to succeed, taking on revenue-generating roles and building strong, cross-functional alliances. Guest: Caroline Lombardi, Global Head of Hospitality & Leisure, Egon Zehnder Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company Give Us Feedback: We'd love to hear from you. Help us enhance your podcast experience by providing feedback here in our listener survey. Want to get in touch? Send a note to host Rob Markey: https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob Time-stamped List of Topics Covered: [01:10] How the CCO role is shifting from being a scorekeeper to focusing on growth and influencing innovation within companies [06:43] The toolkit successful CX leaders need, including operational accountability and having access to frontline teams [07:24] How transformational call center roles have become part of CX leadership, and the benefits of aligning call centers with the broader business strategy [15:36] What kinds of difficulties CX leaders face, such as building the right allies and driving change within organizations that may resist transformation [19:22] Why, from a recruitment lens, some people tend to downplay their job qualifications [23:39] The importance of getting customer experience into the boardroom to drive business results Time-stamped Notable Quotes: [11:56] “Move from scorekeeper to growth mindset and make sure the C-suite understands you can stretch your roles in more ways to add bigger enterprise value.” [12:11] “The best-case customer officer roles are really CEO successor-type of roles.” [15:21] “I can't emphasize enough: If you have the chance to run the contact center, don't think twice.” [16:03] “CX leaders by nature want to drive change. The score is never good enough. You're never done improving. You're never done innovating.” [19:06] “If you are interviewing for a position and you're not getting access to who you think the right stakeholders are, you should ask for it. And if you don't get access, that's a sign. They're hiding it.”

Episode 239: What hidden insights can customer behavior data analysis reveal about how successful one food delivery app may be over another? Discover how analysis of externally sourced customer behavior data can fuel dramatic improvements in revenue forecasts and strategic decisions. See how competitor data analysis can help identify strengths and weaknesses that are otherwise hidden. In this episode of Customer Confidential, we're joined by Dan McCarthy, director and co-founder of Theta and Associate Professor of Marketing at the University of Maryland's Robert H. Smith School of Business. Dan shares findings from Theta and Bain & Company's jointly published consumer purchase data study, “Customer Lifetime Value across Food Delivery Competitors.” Together, Dan and Rob explore how they used a proprietary database of credit card transaction data from Pyxis to track customer behavior for subscription services over five years. They describe how accounting for corresponding economic factors like seasonality and the Covid-19 pandemic helped improve forecasts of transaction velocity, spending, and retention. Learn which food delivery app had the best customer loyalty, the most customers, and highest per-customer spending. Guest: Dan McCarthy, Director and Co-Founder of Theta, Associate Professor of Marketing at the University of Maryland, College Park Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company Give Us Feedback: We'd love to hear from you. Help us enhance your podcast experience by providing feedback here in our listener survey. Want to get in touch? Send a note to host Rob Markey here. Time-Stamped List of Topics Covered: [02:00] Introduction to customer behavior analysis and business forecasting [05:15] How companies can use historical data to predict customer lifetime value [10:00] Insights from customer data and the role of subscription services [15:30] The impact of external factors like economic shifts and market changes on consumer behavior [20:00] How businesses can improve acquisition and retention strategies using data [25:00] Using customer lifetime value to forecast future revenue and business growth Time-Stamped Notable Quotes: [02:45] “The notion of having a consistent data set with multiple companies in it so you can compare … all these different food delivery companies [means] you can explicitly see them and you can see the same consumers buying across them.” [05:37] “It's primarily taking these different vintages of customers—where a vintage is defined by, ‘When did that customer make their very first purchase with your firm?'—and then within that vintage, what we want to explain is what these individual customers are going to do in the future.” [07:42] “[The data] is what allows us to say things like, is this company acquiring customers well? Are they retaining customers well? How frequently are they buying? And how does that compare across different companies?” Additional Resources: Customer Lifetime Value across Food Delivery Competitors Pyxis by Bain & Company

Episode 238: In what appears to be a paradox, Verizon is accelerating its responsible AI journey through a measured, deliberate approach—ensuring its technology is primed to enhance customer experiences when they matter most. Verizon isn't rushing to put AI in front of customers. Instead, they're deliberately building trust, refining data quality, and rigorously testing their AI tools internally. This methodical strategy might seem slow, but is accelerating their progress toward a future where AI can take on a bigger, more direct, customer-serving role. In this episode, Brian Higgins, chief customer experience officer at Verizon, explains how their thoughtful AI tool development empowers and supports employees today while laying the groundwork for handling more customer interactions tomorrow. Tools like the Personal Research Assistant are being refined internally, allowing Verizon employees to build confidence in AI's capabilities before these technologies ever touch a customer. According to Brian, Verizon has focused on “bringing humans and AI together to drive more yield.” By ensuring employees are comfortable and proficient with AI tools, Verizon is building a strong AI foundation. His team embraces a deliberate learning approach vs. rushing to deploy technology for its own sake. Learn more about Verizon's AI strategy and how building trustworthy internal tools enables smarter, faster, and more personalized customer experiences at scale. Guest: Brian Higgins, Chief Customer Experience Officer, Verizon Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company Give Us Feedback: We'd love to hear from you. Help us enhance your podcast experience by providing feedback here in our listener survey. Want to get in touch? Send a note to host Rob Markey: https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob Time-stamped List of Topics Covered: [02:15] How Verizon uses AI to empower employees and streamline operations [07:05] The strategy behind building AI tools like Verizon's Personal Research Assistant [12:45] Employee co-development and involvement in AI-driven transformations [19:30] Balancing short-term wins with long-term AI-driven business goals [25:50] Leadership commitment and the role of AI in transforming customer experience Time-stamped Notable Quotes: [02:45] “Customers don't only go into a store. They don't only go to verizon.com. They go all over the place and do all kinds of things with us all the time. You have to pull all that together into one view.” [03:46]  “If the employees aren't happy with their overall experience, it's virtually impossible for them to make the customers happy.” [05:30] “This is another tool in the toolbox, and the employees see [AI's value] right away.” [11:15] “We had to reorganize everything ... but you can't simply go back to what you were doing before. You [have] to layer in something new.” [22:45] “Our primary focus was on areas of pain for both employees and customers.” [27:21] “This is about bringing humans and AI together to drive more yield. If we were a declining business, it might have a different model. But we're not a declining business. We're a growing business. We need to get more out of the current employees we have.” [32:25] “Personalization is the material unlock—for us and our customers.” [38:32] “We had some challenging times for a few years at Verizon. There was a recognition that we needed to reorganize how the whole company was structured. And we did that.”

How does democratizing intelligence enhance productivity and drive smarter decision-making? Murli Buluswar, Citigroup's Head of Analytics for the US Personal Bank, joins host Rob Markey to explore Citi's strategies for democratizing intelligence. Murli emphasizes building a conversational intelligence platform that enables proactive and reactive insights to reduce friction between curiosity, insight, and decision-making. This approach enhances organizational efficiency, boosts productivity, and sparks more complex problem-solving. Taking a scientific approach, Citi treats customer experience as a key growth strategy. Murli shares how small improvements in customer experience can boost long-term retention and how investing in marketing to existing customers offers quick returns. Citi's in-house Journey Analytics engine integrates financial transactions, customer information, external data, and internal algorithms to identify opportunities that enhance the customer experience. This innovative approach to decision-making—a mere dream five years ago—is now a reality, delivering significant customer value and better business results. Guest: Murli Buluswar, Head of Analytics, US Personal Banking, Citigroup  Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company Give Us Feedback: We'd love to hear from you. Help us enhance your podcast experience by providing feedback here in our listener survey. Want to get in touch? Send a note to host Rob Markey: https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob Time-stamped list of topics covered: (1:07) High-level business overview for context (1:53) The democratization of intelligence (4:49) Clarifying Murli's role vs. that of a chief data and analytics officer (6:25) The transformation and aggregation of disaggregated teams within Citi—and the need for a global solution (11:42) Customer health index (19:59) Framework to examine actions, forecast outcomes, and bring more intentionality to decision-making (32:30) Automated aberration detection (37:25) Career reflections and parting thoughts Time-stamped list of notable quotes (4:21) “We are building a conversational intelligence platform that allows people to interact with data. There's both the proactive identification of things we might not have conceptualized. And there's the—dare I say—reactive component of, ‘I have a question and I want to ask the engine.'” (6:00) “That's why this notion of democratization of intelligence is important to me. If I can enable the organization to whet its curiosity and its appetite independently, and then rely on my team as we get to the third and fourth layer of sophistication, then I've improved productivity and have freed up time and energy to focus on higher-order problem-solving.” (7:19) “Perhaps about 80% of the team was focused on followership, 20% on partnership, and maybe essentially next to 0% on leadership.” (10:30) “We ended up building a software tool that essentially democratized decision-making across finance, product marketing, and my team.”

Episode 236: When telecom rivals offered lower rates and bigger networks, Macquarie bet big on customer loyalty—and won. David Tudehope, Macquarie Technology Group's CEO, joins Rob Markey to discuss Macquarie's competitive differentiator: a bold, customer-centric approach. David co-founded Macquarie to prioritize exceptional customer experience over price and network quality competition. Joining David is Joseph Michelli, author of Customer Magic: The Macquarie Way, who shares a key moment about how a product launch was postponed and short-term profits were sacrificed due to customer need misalignment. "We weren't living our purpose if we proceeded. We had to take our medicine and accept stakeholder disappointment," David recalls. That leadership decision reinforced Macquarie's culture. Transparency and real-time feedback improved employer-customer interactions, workforce engagement, and Net Promoter Scores. Sharing real, exceptional service examples inspired employees to excel when creating memorable customer experiences. Impressive results include exceptional shareholder returns and consistently having Australian telecom's lowest per-customer complaint volume. Guests: David Tudehope, CEO of Macquarie Technology Group, and Joseph Michelli, Ph.D., author of Customer Magic: The Macquarie Way Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company Give Us Feedback: We'd love to hear from you. Help us enhance your podcast experience by providing feedback here in our listener survey. Want to get in touch? Send a note to host Rob Markey: https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob Time-stamped list of topics covered: (00:00:13 - 00:01:12) Identifying market opportunities by recognizing underserved and overcharged segments in telecom (00:01:12 - 00:03:09) Initial business strategy to develop a better billing system and the importance of customer experience (00:03:03 - 00:04:54) Customer experience as a core value and how making tough decisions helps prioritize customer satisfaction (00:04:54 - 00:06:33) Navigating industry competition and differentiating through customer service in a price-focused market (00:06:28 - 00:12:06) Empowering employees with transparency, real-time feedback, and engagement strategies (00:12:18 - 00:18:19) Overcoming challenges like billing complaints and learning from feedback (00:18:19 - 00:26:28) Cultural reinforcement and how storytelling can inspire employees (00:26:19 - 00:28:12) Continuous improvement in NPS through cultural shifts (00:28:15 - 00:31:32) Self-propelled learning and institutional growth and how to develop a sustainable model for continuous improvement Time-stamped list of notable quotes: (00:05:55) "The customer experience is the compass from which we make hard decisions.” (00:05:43) "Our purpose is making a difference for customers that are underserved and overcharged." (00:8:09) "Macquarie has between zero and two complaints a year." (00:17:03) "Our real-time feedback of customer experience scores to staff has been very powerful." (00:17:38) "When we took our hands off the big levers, we actually got significant change." (00:34:42) "We found that when we educated the person on their bill, they became an advocate for us." (00:30:21) "Storytelling has been transformational for our business." (00:35:55) "Our model is self-learning and self-propelled, and it has been that way for 10 years." Additional Resources: Read Joseph Michelli's book: Customer Magic: The Macquarie Way

Episode 235: In 2012, T-Mobile lost nearly two million customers. Its revenue fell precipitously. Its situation seemed hopeless. Then came a new CEO with an audacious plan and a penchant for F-bombs. Jon Freier, president of T-Mobile's US Consumer Group, joins host Rob Markey to share his firsthand account of the remarkable corporate turnaround. Jon describes the “Un-carrier” strategy, from its risky beginnings to its industry-reshaping impact. He shares how T-Mobile broke the mold, challenged conventions, and ultimately won over customers by putting their needs first. According to Jon, “The whole premise of the Un-carrier movement was about fixing a stupid, broken, arrogant industry.” Under the leadership of new CEO John Legere, T-Mobile used data-driven insights to uncover the “bad profits” that dominated the mobile telecom industry in the US at the time. Determined to not only turn the company around but to change the industry, T-Mobile made a huge bet on customer value and what we at Bain now call Earned Growth: the idea that forgoing bad profits to deliver more value to customers would not only reduce churn but ultimately attract new customers through word of mouth. Jon shares some of T-Mobile's biggest game-changing innovations. He lays out bets on dramatic changes to handset pricing and contract renewal terms, a daring move from high-priced “buckets” of limited data to unlimited plans, repricing international roaming, and the innovative T-Mobile Tuesdays rewards program. He also highlights the impact of the “Team of Experts” customer service model. The results have been eye-popping. T-Mobile reestablished customer growth, received the highest ranking in the telecommunications & media Internet sector regarding NPS rankings (as measured by Bain's NPS Prism telecom benchmarking), and has outperformed the stock market by many multiples. Guest: Jon Freier, President, T-Mobile US Consumer Group Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company Give us feedback: We'd love to hear from you. Help us enhance your podcast experience by providing feedback here in our listener survey. Want to get in touch? Send a note to host Rob Markey: https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob Additional resources: T-Mobile's CEO on Winning Market Share by Trash-Talking Rivals Reinventing Customer Service: How T-Mobile achieved record levels of quality and productivity Un-carrier History Learn about Bain's NPS Prism Time-stamped list of topics covered: [2:29] The dire state of T-Mobile in 2012 [6:00] John Legere's arrival and the birth of the “Un-carrier” strategy [10:36] Breaking down the old telecom model: from contracts to transparency [16:28] Early signs of success and the importance of leading indicators [19:17] Overcoming internal skepticism and building organizational buy-in [21:51] T-Mobile's unique approach to customer service and the “Team of Experts” [24:27] Using data to anticipate customer needs and personalize experiences [28:14] Frontline Connect: Immersing leaders in the customer experience [30:12] T-Mobile's winning loyalty plays: unlimited data, T-Mobile Tuesdays, and Simple Global [33:27] Lessons learned and the future of customer loyalty in telecom Time-stamped list of notable quotes: [3:14] “We were losing two million customers a year … Revenues were going down, costs were going up, and earnings were plummeting.” [3:40] “Hopeless, that would be the word I would use in 2012. We're just stuck.” [5:59] “In walks a new CEO named John Legere ... dropping F-bombs in a very large all-employee meeting, and you're like, ‘Did he just say what I thought he just said?'” [12:21] “If you treat customers great and you treat them better than your competitors, guess what? They'll stay.” [14:31] “The biggest risk is doing exactly the same [thing]. Where our business was, it needed a bold shakeup.” [15:28] “You might not have to be perfect right out of the gate, but you have to be absolutely committed to steering decisions … That's where the visibility of metrics and the overall management system is critical to be able to steer to the outcomes you're looking for.” [16:07] “We just decided to have customers win first. Our employees win second, and then our shareholders ultimately winning after that.” [29:19] “I have the saying, at T-Mobile, that there's two types of people. One, those who serve customers. And two, those who serve those who serve customers. And you're in one of those two buckets. And if you don't buy into the culture, you'll never find the time to do it.”

Why do some retailers excel at creating a welcoming environment for a diverse customer base while others fall short? Bain & Company's Naiara De León and Madison Dyal Anderson discuss their research on how companies that excel in customer advocacy and inclusion consistently outperform their peers by a staggering 10 percentage points annually. Beyond quantifying inclusion's sizable revenue impact, they also share data from their survey of over 7,700 US consumers on the lasting negative psychological toll exclusion has on retail customers—and why one bad experience can turn someone off a brand forever. We analyze the root of the issue: What causes consumer exclusion in the first place? We also share examples of companies' winning inclusive strategies, from the importance of eye contact to plentiful product assortment to purposefully designed campaigns. Guest: Naiara De León, Partner, Bain & Company Guest: Madison Dyal Anderson, Partner, Bain & Company Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company Give Us Feedback: We'd love to hear from you. Help us enhance your podcast experience by providing feedback here in our listener survey. Want to get in touch? Send a note to host Rob Markey: https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob Time-stamped list of topics covered: [3:30] Research study overview and key findings [6:33] Research findings on how inclusion is universally important [8:02] Personal experiences of feeling welcomed or excluded in different stores [10:13] Balancing inclusivity with a retail brand's target market [12:16] How the feeling of belonging or being welcomed affects customer advocacy [13:04] Types of negative retail experiences that lead to customer detractors [15:00] The subtleties of interaction that affect customer perceptions of inclusion [20:14] Examples of companies that have created welcoming and inclusive atmospheres [22:10] How product assortments and staff training contribute to inclusivity [26:32] How retailers can assess and improve their levels of inclusivity for good [30:54] The greater impact of inclusive practices on strategy and market position Time-stamped list of notable quotes: [00:32] “There is this line between welcomed and belonging. The core customer needs to feel like they belong.” [2:24] “Universally, customers across all demographics desire to feel invited and welcomed.” [6:33] “Inclusion matters to everyone. It's actually pretty universal.” [10:34] “The core customer needs to feel like they belong. That's where you are tuning in to those behaviors and those customer segment needs and wants. Make people feel heard and seen.” [14:45] “[In terms of survey findings, there were] verbatims that talked about, ‘The store associate never made eye contact with me. I have hearing loss and that made [communication] very hard. English is not my first language and I need that eye contact to carry all the way through [a conversation].” [31:13] “It is quite profitable to [prioritize inclusivity] because it helps you grow. It helps you lead, versus your peers. It's also the right thing to do.” Additional Resources: Read Madison and Naiara's Bain research, In Retail, Inclusive Customer Journeys Lead to Growth

What if the key to creating truly innovative products and solutions lies at least as much in uncovering the deep emotional and attitudinal needs of your customers as in mastering technology? Eckhart Boehme, founder and managing director of Unipro Solutions, shares his approach to putting Clayton Christensen's Jobs to Be Done framework into practical use. Eckhart demonstrates how in-depth interviews with customers and their families can reveal the underlying personal experiences, emotions, and desires that truly motivate people to seek out and purchase products or services. With these insights in hand, companies often uncover fundamentally different needs than they first anticipated, sometimes even opening up new markets or uses for their products. We also discuss Eckhart's Wheel of Progress model, which he designed to reveal the hidden layers of reasoning behind customer decisions. It provides a systematic way to deconstruct customer narratives and identify the jobs that are most likely to drive customer decisions along their cyclical journeys. Learn how this model segments the customer journey into phases of motivation, decision-making, and action. He brings this all to life with a compelling case study about finding a senior living place for an elderly loved one, revealing a hidden but critical job to be done: giving the elderly parent a sense of purpose. Our conversation also lays bare some common pitfalls when applying the Jobs to Be Done framework, such as focusing too narrowly on functional jobs while missing the bigger picture of the customer's overarching goals and emotional needs. Guest: Eckhart Boehme, Founder and Managing Director, Unipro Solutions Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company Give Us Feedback: We'd love to hear from you. Help us enhance your podcast experience by providing feedback here in our listener survey. Want to get in touch? Send a note to host Rob Markey: https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob Time-stamped list of topics covered [1:19] How Jobs to Be Done goes deeper than traditional customer needs analysis [3:02] Clarifying what Jobs to Be Done entails and why it's a game changer [6:08] The Wheel of Progress model and its role in dissecting customer decisions [10:41] Applying Jobs to Be Done in complex customer service scenarios [15:00] The practical steps and challenges in implementing this framework [20:14] Examples of transformative customer insights derived from in-depth interviews [22:10] Strategies for businesses to effectively harness Jobs to Be Done [30:54] Future trends and directions in customer experience research Time-stamped list of notable quotes: [6:26] “You want to understand where the story starts. What [event] triggered people [wanting to conduct] research and go through pain. Understanding what triggers people have is very valuable because then you can start building a relationship—even before people have started going to a search engine to look for a solution." [7:51] “When we look at the customer journey, we call it ‘the cycle of progress' because we think that people make progress in cycles." [16:01] "We try to design our offerings and the marketing and sales processes to focus on helping customers make progress.” [24:23] “Jobs to Be Done helps you to do the right thing and design thinking helps you to do things right." Additional Resources: Learn more about Eckhart's Wheel of Progress Learn more about HBS professor Clay Christensen's Jobs to Be Done Theory and his famous story about how to improve milkshake sales

Episode 232: When AI Shifts the Balance of Power to Consumers: Preparing for a New Business Reality Matt Harris, Partner at Bain Capital Ventures, argues that generative AI will soon empower customers in unexpected ways. Consumers, he predicts, will soon use AI tools to continuously discover lower loan rates, higher-yield savings accounts, or more attractive insurance policies. As a result, Matt anticipates a shift in customer-company power dynamics. Imagine, for example, an AI agent able to continuously move your deposits to the highest-yielding savings accounts or refinance your loans to the best available rates with little intervention required from you. Imagine consumer tools for interpreting medical scans and providing a diagnosis to compare to your doctor's assessment. Generative AI could even transform the future of mental health therapy to be more effective, efficient, and streamlined. Join us as we discuss the present and future of consumers' newfound AI-driven power and analyze where organizations and their leaders should be pointed next to remain competitive. Guest: Matt Harris, Partner, Bain Capital Ventures Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company Give Us Feedback: We'd love to hear from you. Help us enhance your podcast experience by providing feedback here in our listener survey. Want to get in touch? Send a note to host Rob Markey: https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob Time-stamped list of topics covered: [02:53] How businesses use generative AI for productivity and future innovation [09:23] Discussion on the Gartner Hype Cycle for generative AI [17:09] What it means for customers to be “superpowered” and an overview of a few generative AI applications in finance and medicine [22:28] AI's impact on society and the future of work [27:44] Adapting to a world with superpowered customers who now demand more from businesses, emphasizing the need for deepened customer relationships and greater levels of innovation Time-stamped list of notable quotes: [10:55] "Every new technology experiences [influx and they] disillusion the rest of the market because they have these spectacular failures.” [14:20] “[Generative AI] is a much more powerful tool for customers than it is for companies. And an equal or larger part of energy should be going in these boardrooms to imagining a world where customers have the power of generative AI and the implications for your entire business model.” [18:00] “I revere doctors. But how could we expect that a single human being would have all of the medical knowledge in their head? This is something computers will be better at.” [22:16] "I think I could make an argument that generative AI, combined with predictive machine learning, and being moved forward as fast as these technologies are advancing, will be better at almost everything.” [27:53] “We should be spending as much energy thinking and worrying and planning for a ‘superpowered' customer world as we are thinking about how we use [technology] ourselves, and I'm just not seeing people doing that.” Additional Resources: Read Matt's article for BCV, The Age of the Superpowered Customer The Age of AI and Our Human Future by Henry A. Kissinger, Eric Schmidt, and Daniel Huttenlocher The AI Advantage by Thomas H. Davenport Prediction Machines by Ajay Agrawal, Joshua Gans, and Avi Goldfarb Learn about Bain's spin-off, Bain Capital, which has operated as a separate company since 1984 Learn More About Our Guest and Host: Guest: Matt Harris LinkedIn Profile Host: Rob Markey LinkedIn Profile

Discover the engine of Earned Growth as Rob Markey and Fred Reichheld, Bain Fellow and "Winning On Purpose” author, hold a working session on how references and referrals significantly contribute to organic growth. Rob and Fred unearth the pivotal role that references and referrals play in propelling Earned Growth. They answer key questions such as: How would you characterize different referral types? What are the best mechanisms for measuring and attributing value to them? How do you navigate the tricky path of fostering genuine, organic referrals at scale? Together, they explore one of the thorniest issues in accounting for the value of referrals: How much of a new referred customer's value should accrue to the referring customer versus the referred one? Guest: Fred Reichheld, Bain Fellow, founder of Bain's Loyalty Practice Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company Time-stamped list of topics covered: 02:00 - Unveiling the Referral Spectrum 08:30 - Measuring the Impact of Referrals 15:45 - Attributing Value: Who Benefits? 22:10 - Fostering a Culture of Earned Growth Time-stamped list of notable quotes: 02:25 - Rob Markey: "A genuine referral, an authentic referral, is motivated by some form of goodwill towards the recipient." 05:45 - Fred Reichheld: "Earned Growth is not just a metric, it's a philosophy." 19:30 - Fred Reichheld: "The value of a referral is the cornerstone of organic expansion.” Additional Resources: Winning On Purpose by Fred Reichheld Bain & Company's Insights on Earned Growth Guest and Host Bio Links: Fred Reichheld LinkedIn Profile Rob Markey LinkedIn Profile Give Us Feedback: Help us enhance your podcast experience by providing feedback here. Send a note to host Rob Markey: https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob

Why would a world-class sports academy invest in a student center, rather than more coaches, fancy equipment, or dorms? IMG Academy, a Florida boarding school, turns out some of the most successful college and professional athletes around. Its president, Tim Pernetti, led a massive cultural shift toward customer loyalty. Tim says IMG Academy used to be highly focused on coaching and sports operations. To be clear, that emphasis on athletic excellence helped produce a large number of highly successful athletes. But Tim and the leadership team saw the potential to add something on top of this: a focus on serving a more comprehensive set of student-athlete needs. Today, IMG Academy leverages student-athlete input to refine its program and operations. New initiatives range from enhancing dining experiences to introducing flexible communal spaces. Tim shares how an emphasis on employee recognition combines regular student and parent feedback to instill deep, enduring culture change. Guest: Tim Pernetti, President, IMG Academy Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company Time-stamped list of topics covered: [00:09:17] Global influence and expansion [00:14:25] Culture shift toward experience [00:19:57] Response to student feedback [00:25:32] Investment in campus experience [00:30:01] Recognition's impact on staff [00:35:23] Challenges in universal buy-in [00:37:09] Commitment to improving IMG Academy Time-stamped list of notable quotes: [00:04:43] “Really, [our early] focus was on intense physical training, like total immersion in tennis. And the result was ten world number ones [were trained here].” [00:07:23] “This is an environment where you're bringing people in from all over the world. You want to have good people in the environment. We put a lot of weight into that, like getting to know kids, and getting to know their parents.” [00:23:17] “We went into meetings with data and said, ‘Here's what the customer is saying.'” [00:29:16] “[At] a place like IMG Academy, we have everything from coaches, people that serve food every day, and our transportation drivers, [and people] who cut the grass at five o'clock in the morning. And I've shadowed all of them." [00:30:12] “We [recognized a tram driver] with a financial bonus and a gift card to take his wife out to dinner. This guy now is known as the friendliest, nicest, most outgoing person on campus.” [00:30:35] "The biggest tool you have in your toolkit right now is your personal and other leaders' acknowledgment and recognition when people do the right things.” Guest and Host Bio Links: Tim Pernetti's LinkedIn Profile Rob Markey LinkedIn Profile Give Us Feedback: Help us enhance your podcast experience by providing feedback here. Send a note to host Rob Markey: https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob

How can businesses transcend traditional customer service boundaries to establish new customer experience benchmarks? Stan Swinton, Founder and General Manager of NPSx, Bain & Company, discusses how a comprehensive approach to customer experience extends beyond gathering feedback or managing customer journeys. Stan details Bain's NPSx framework—comparable to a restaurant star rating, he says—which offers an extensive customer-centricity analysis via 60+ dimensions and eight pillars. Stan shares how this methodology motivates companies to strive for top-tier customer satisfaction. We also discuss the Customer Experience Roadmap and Accreditation (CXRA). Stan highlights CXRA's effectiveness in uncovering inefficiencies and enhancing customer-employee synergies. In addition, we explore why businesses frequently restrict their customer experience initiatives to areas such as feedback management, and discuss the essential role of Customer Experience Officers in achieving genuine customer centricity. Finally, we examine the constantly changing landscape of CX benchmarks and expectations, emphasizing the importance of a flexible and adaptive approach. Guest: Stan Swinton, Founder and General Manager of NPSx, Bain & Company Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company Time-stamped list of topics covered: [16:56] Role of CX: Stan highlights how the NPSx framework aids in defining company decision rights and categorizes 60 different jobs or dimensions to be coordinated. [17:50] Framework Pillars: Eight pillars provide a structured context for internal dialogue on improvement within organizations. [18:15] Framework applicability: The framework's relevance, even for companies that are just starting their CX journey or are less mature in their CX programs [19:19] Framework evolution and review: The living nature of the framework, with ongoing revisions and updates to standards and maturity scales to keep pace with current trends in customer centricity [20:10] Benchmarking and improvement: How clients sometimes feel dissatisfied with their initial ratings but are encouraged to view it as a journey toward improvement, similar to achieving restaurant rating stars in the culinary world [21:48] Identifying opportunities: How the framework allows organizations to identify their strengths and areas for improvement in customer experience Time-stamped list of notable quotes: [04:49] “We would generally work with a company first to define their taxonomy. One of the things we recognize is a lot of different industries and clients have different ways of defining their experiences. But there are standards and there are best practices that we can bring to the table to help shape that taxonomy and definitions.” [7:28] “One of the things that we recognize at Bain is that a lot of practitioners didn't come from a CX background. There aren't a lot of degree programs dedicated to CX. And when we were looking at the market, we'd say, well, how can you train yourself as a CX practitioner?” [12:31] “Our framework has eight pillars: purpose and leadership, proposition management, customer value and lifecycle management, customer journey management, customer service management, customer feedback management, customer data management, and employee experience.” Additional Resources: Bain article | The Elements of Value: Understanding the 30 elements of value for consumers can help companies gain an edge. HBR article | The Elements of Value: Measuring—and delivering—what consumers really want Guest and Host Bio Links: Stan's LinkedIn profile Rob Markey LinkedIn Profile Give Us Feedback: Help us enhance your podcast experience by providing feedback here. Send a note to host Rob Markey: https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob

How does a global medical technology company maintain customer focus while managing operational challenges during a pandemic? In this episode, Tony Ezell, executive vice president of North America and chief marketing officer for Becton, Dickinson and Company (BD), explores how integrating customer feedback into your business strategy can maintain—and even enhance—customer loyalty by helping shape business strategies that are both robust and responsive to evolving customer needs. Tony outlines how customer loyalty and adaptability are essential strategic tools in healthcare innovation. Together, we explore how BD leveraged a customer-centric approach to skillfully navigate operational continuity and customer satisfaction. We also take a short trip down memory lane to connect the dots from our chat with Tony a decade ago, exploring the ongoing impact of customer experience and Net Promoter Systems on Tony's evolving career trajectory and leadership style. Guest: Tony Ezell, executive vice president of North America and chief marketing officer, Becton, Dickinson and Company Episode Highlights Introduction and Tony Ezell's background [01:59] The balance of operational responsibilities and customer-centricity [04:53] Covid-19's impact on customer loyalty at BD [05:50] Implementing customer feedback into business strategy [09:09] BD's challenges and opportunities [12:09] Tony's NPS work [15:07] Customer feedback scores [20:07] Partnerships [21:30] Connecting the dots between 2014 and today [26:22] Driving loyalty [27:46] Quotable Quotes: "We have customers who were starting to decide whether they want to go away from us, who are now calling us to engage, to help them solve their problems again.” [01:19] “I always think about what drives loyalty, and do we know what drives loyalty? And are we actually delivering on the things that matter most to our customers, that drive loyalty? And that's what we're operating on now.” [04:33] “Our customers see us as one company, not as seven or nine different businesses. And now that we've done that, we're starting to make improvements.” [12:38] Additional Resources: Hear Tony's 2014 podcast with Rob Markey: “Breaking Down the ‘Invisible Fence'” Host: Rob Markey Get in touch: Send us your podcast feedback here. Send Rob a note here.

How does an insurance industry leader integrate a simple yet profound question—Would you do that to your mom?—to transform customer service and decision making? In this episode, Richard Watts, board member at Farmers Insurance and former sales and service president at Progressive, discusses how asking this question improves business operations. He explores how this unique approach revolutionizes customer service and sets a new industry standard for empathy and customer focus. Richard also shares insights into how this philosophy transformed internal practices, significantly influenced customer satisfaction and loyalty, and how it continues to shape his leadership and strategic decisions. We'll also revisit Richard's journey from biology to computer science and his shift toward customer-centric innovations in insurance. Guest: Richard Watts, board member, Farmers Insurance Episode Highlights Introduction and background [02:05] The genesis of the "Would You Do That to Your Mom?" philosophy [05:10] Reflections on the evolution of customer service in insurance [11:25] How empathy drives customer loyalty and business success [14:15] Challenges and triumphs in embedding this into organizational culture [18:30] The ongoing influence of this approach in Richard's career [22:45] Balancing data-driven strategies with ethical considerations [25:50] Quotable Quotes: “There isn't a single business initiative or change program that people don't say has to be CEO-led or have the CEO's blessing.” [21:19] “Having someone out there to take the machete and, hack through the jungle of all these processes, being able to go there and say, ‘Okay, we need real-time processing. We can't live with these batch systems anymore.” [22:30] Host: Rob Markey Get in touch: Send us your podcast feedback here. Send Rob a note here.

How do the needs of students at for-profit, mostly online colleges differ from those of typical college students? They often require financial aid, schedule flexibility, and academic support that can go far beyond the norm of traditional higher education. In this segment, we explore why graduation rates have traditionally been quite low at these colleges due to all the challenges students face. How do schools like this strike an appropriate balance of flexibility, support, and rigorous academic programs that will help their students succeed in the workforce? Ruth Veloria is the chief strategy officer and customer officer at the University of Phoenix. She is on a mission to help more of the school's students successfully overcome challenges so they can complete their studies and reap the rewards of their education. Ruth and the team at University of Phoenix have spent over a decade working to improve student retention and success rates. In this episode, roughly a decade after Ruth first joined Rob on the podcast, she shares how the University of Phoenix has achieved a remarkable increase in student retention rates, from 64% to 74%. They now graduate over a third more students than they did 10 years ago. Ruth discusses how the Net Promoter System helped fuel the university's deep commitment to learning from and acting on student feedback. She describes academic policies that are empathetic versus unempathetic, and how data analysis and feedback have been used to enhance student experience and to support policy and process change. Episode Highlights Overview of a subscription-like model for student enrollment [03:15] Transition of Ruth from the School of Business to strategy and customer experience leadership [07:10] Approaches to student retention and success [11:45] Utilizing data analytics and technology to improve student outcomes [16:25] Adapting to Covid-19: Impact on student experience and education delivery [20:55] Insights into student acquisition costs and orientation processes [25:30] Reflections on the implementation and evolution of the Net Promoter System [30:15] Ruth's advice for educational transformation and future goals [35:00] Quotable Quotes: “We went from a 59 Net Promoter Score up to a 73 Net Promoter Score.” [16:33] “We created a lot of entrepreneurs. We got a lot of people excited about changes they could make in the student experience.” [24:19] “We actually set up a pilot team that was using a business leader and tech leader to come together to fix application problems. In fact, we still have that today.” [25:06] Guest: Ruth Veloria, chief strategy officer and customer officer, University of Phoenix Host: Rob Markey Get in touch: Send us your podcast feedback here. Send Rob a note here.

Episode 225: How do high-quality NPS benchmarks unlock strategic priorities and initiatives? What if your NPS data seems highly counterintuitive? For example, what if Detractors seem to be more loyal than Promoters? Host Rob Markey and Jason Barro, a partner at Bain & Company and the leader of Bain's NPS Prism benchmarking service, unpack this situation in the airline industry. It's an illustration of how Net Promoter Score benchmark data might be misleading when not all customers have the freedom to choose, revealing the nuanced understanding required to transform raw data into strategic business insights. Jason and Rob use this example to explore some of the ways a sophisticated knowledge of how customers buy, the choices they have available, and how a market's competitive dynamics inform the interpretation of customer loyalty benchmarks like NPS. Episode Highlights: Introduction to Jason and NPS Prism [01:02] Using NPS Data for Market Insight [02:05] Exploring the complexity of NPS in different industries [05:12] Concept of Trapped Customers [10:17] Earned Growth Strategies [23:52] Banking and Insurance Customer Dynamics [27:22] Quotable Quotes: “The more captive you are, the more likely you are to give high share of wallet to somebody that you don't like very much.” [15:53] - Rob Markey “One of the effects we see in the Prism data for airlines more broadly is that high frequent travelers are happier than low frequent travelers.” [18:06] - Jason Barro “You can see this strategy of, ‘Earn the respect and happiness of your customers,' is a path to profitable growth, and you can see…just how much it actually matters.” - Jason Barro [23:28] Additional Resources: NPS Prism by Bain & Company Net Promoter System Overview Listen to Jason's earlier podcast, NPS Prism: The Source for True, Deep NPS Insights Bios Jason Barro Rob Markey Get in touch: Send us your podcast feedback here. Send Rob a note here. Give us feedback.

From reshaping the playful culture of the LEGO Group to cracking the customer-centricity code in the financial services behemoth Zurich Insurance, how did Conny Kalcher manage the leap? Conny Kalcher, the group chief customer officer at Zurich Insurance, is no stranger to pioneering customer-centric transformations. After retiring from a highly successful career at the LEGO Group, where she spearheaded a customer-centric transformation, Conny brought a wave of fresh perspectives and techniques to the traditionally conservative landscape of Zurich Insurance. Her global influence extends beyond corporate corridors, marked by her active membership in Bain's NPS Loyalty Forum where she contributes to the ongoing Net Promoter System revolution. As context to today's discussion, you may want to revisit the LEGO story she shared with host Rob Markey several years ago in podcast episode 55, Brick by Brick: Rebuilding the LEGO Group by Rediscovering Customer Centricity. In this episode, Rob sits down with Conny Kalcher—a trailblazer in customer-centric transformations—to explore her extraordinary transition from the whimsical world of LEGO to the structured realm of Zurich Insurance. Conny's approach to customer engagement transcends industry boundaries. She brings lessons developed in the playful, informal culture of the LEGO Group into a global insurance behemoth, drawing parallels and contrasts between her experiences. Conny's anecdotes reveal that the principles of understanding and catering to customer needs are universal, whether you're dealing with brick toys or insurance policies written in complex legalese. As Conny reminisces about her time in the toy industry, she sheds light on how the lessons learned during her tenure at the LEGO Group acted as a catalyst for nurturing a customer-first culture at Zurich Insurance. It illustrates how a keen understanding of customer sentiments can be a game-changer in any industry. Topics covered: Transition from the LEGO Group to Zurich Insurance [02:20] Customer-centric transformation [04:00] Corporate strategy and vision [06:50] Metric implementation (NPS) [07:07] Decentralized vs. centralized organizational structures [11:00] Earning customer loyalty [24:30] Quotable quotes: "Anybody who needs to change something I would definitely advise to also think about, 'How can we do processes, structures, ways of working to make people naturally change,' because people want to do the right thing, basically." [01:45] "We've defined our strategy for this strategic cycle to become the preferred insurer of our customers. So, it's all about earning the loyalty of those customers." [27:15] "My proudest moment in the Zurich [Insurance] journey is when I go to the local offices and I talk to the people there and I see the fire in their eyes, and I see the new brand on the walls, and they talk in a new kind of language that they didn't use to talk in." [32:37] Additional resources: Zurich Insurance's long-term strategy and near-term targets Episode 55 of Customer Confidential Podcast: Brick by Brick: Rebuilding the LEGO Group by Rediscovering Customer Centricity Net Promoter System overview Insurance industry reports by Bain & Company Bios: Conny Kalcher, group chief customer officer at Zurich Insurance Rob Markey

Host Rob Markey welcomes Mark Slatin, CEO of EmpoweredCX, to dissect the intricate dynamics of trust within customer experiences. Drawing insights from real-world examples, they explore the role of product and service quality in establishing trust, the impact of reliability and consistency in decision making, and the potential pitfalls of self-orientation. Delving deeper into the Trust Equation and explaining its different facets, Mark underscores the necessity of understanding the customer's journey and perspective. They address the challenges of reliability, targeted marketing implications, customer vs. company centricity, the art of meaningful recommendations, and more. And they explore how to balance customer needs with shareholder expectations. Mark also provides an analytical perspective on the integral components of trust in a business landscape. In this show, Rob and Mark discuss the Trust Equation, which you can learn more about here: https://trustedadvisor.com/why-trust-matters/understanding-trust/understanding-the-trust-equation  https://modelthinkers.com/mental-model/trust-equation Guest: Mark Slatin, CEO of EmpoweredCX

In this episode, we launch our new show name: The Customer Confidential Podcast. We chose it after seeking lots of listener and guest input and believe that the new name better reflects the show's mission—namely, to delve into untold stories of customer and industry transformations, sharing the journeys of both well-known and unsung heroes of customer centricity. We also seek out deep conversations with the thought leaders who inspire the best practitioners.  Also, in this episode, which also marks our 10th anniversary, host Rob Markey welcomes back frequent guest (and Rob's longtime mentor) Fred Reichheld, Bain fellow and founder of Bain's Loyalty practice. Rob and Fred trace the evolution of Fred's earned growth rate concept from its roots in Fred's early work on customer retention at Bain. They unravel the intricacies of customer-centric metrics and how they have changed. They note the impact of genuine referrals vs. those that are bought and differentiate between earned and purchased growth. Importantly, they acknowledge and explore challenges in quantifying earned growth and how some companies have begun to tackle them successfully. Guest: Fred Reichheld, Bain fellow, founder of Bain's Loyalty practice, and author of Winning on Purpose: The Unbeatable Strategy of Loving Customers

How do you measure patient experience and empathy within the healthcare industry in a way that truly captures real emotion and real experiences? Dr. Adrienne Boissy, guest staff neurologist at Cleveland Clinic and chief medical officer at Qualtrics, sits down with Rob Markey to discuss the need for a more comprehensive approach to capturing the patient experience. She also shares how healthcare professionals and caregivers alike can leverage compassion and self-empathy to better manage the often hard-to-handle career moments such as helping colleagues, patients, and their families process challenges together. If you'd like to provide feedback on the show, please fill out our survey here.  If you'd like to learn more about Adrienne, visit her LinkedIn.

How can an organization's passion for high-quality culinary delights forge unbreakable customer bonds? For food wholesaler METRO's customers, buying food is a personal experience. It's the art of witnessing, inhaling, savoring, and examining the produce, meat, and fish in the store—a sensory feast that leaves customers' hearts full. Creating exceptional fresh-food buying experiences is METRO's mission. In this episode, guest Peter Gries, customer and sales officer at METRO, and Rob Markey discuss why the company values its diverse customer segments. Peter also shares an insider's perspective on the change journey transforming the company's relationship with its customers. If you'd like to provide feedback on the show, please fill out our survey here.  If you'd like to learn more about Peter, you can find him on LinkedIn.

With an array of streaming platforms and the same amount of time in the day, getting an accurate read on where your customers spend their screen time has never been more important. And this shift in customer behavior has been particularly challenging for companies that rely on traditional ways to collect data on their customers. In this episode, guest David Kenny, chairman and CEO of Nielsen, and Rob Markey discuss the impact streaming has had on Nielsen's business, how the company is evolving to meet new challenges, and how strategic innovation fosters customer trust. If you'd like to provide feedback on the show, please fill out our survey here.  If you'd like to learn more about David, you can find him on LinkedIn.

In a digital-first environment, successful brands stay ahead of the curve by prioritizing agility and experimentation. Instead of merely solving problems, they drive innovative solutions to eliminate—not just mitigate—customer pain points to achieve a seamless and exceptional customer experience. In this episode, guest Joe Wheeler, CEO of CX/Digital, and Rob Markey discuss how successful brands bridge the gap between human and digital experiences and the significance of agility and experimentation as tools for achieving successful digital transformations. If you'd like to provide feedback on the show, please fill out our survey here. You can order Joe's new book, The Digital-First Customer Experience, here. If you'd like to learn more about Joe, you can find him on LinkedIn.

What makes people recommend your brand and services to others? Winning referrals are more than just a marketing channel; they're a way to turn prospects into lifelong customers through word-of-mouth advocacy based on authenticity and trust. In this episode, guest Andy Cockburn, CEO and cofounder of Mention Me, and Rob Markey discuss the effectiveness of trust-based referrals, how to integrate advocacy into company culture to unlock the transformative potential of referrals, and how data-driven approaches can optimize referrals' effectiveness. If you'd like to provide feedback on the show, please fill out our survey here.  If you'd like to learn more about Andy, you can find him on LinkedIn.

In this episode, Ben Reason, CEO and founder of Livework, and Rob Markey discuss how, by taking consumers' needs and emotions into account, design can create products and services that are both functional and emotionally appealing, making consumer experiences more enjoyable. If you'd like to provide feedback on the show, please fill out our survey here.  If you'd like to learn more about Ben, you can find him on LinkedIn.

How can companies get revenue forecasting and value creation right? By slowing down. Michael Mauboussin, head of Consilient Research at Counterpoint Global, Morgan Stanley Investment Management, and Rob Markey discuss the metrics and methods businesses can use to grow their long-term value. Make sure to listen to part two. ·        Get your copy of Michael's book, Expectations Investing, here. ·        Read Michael's Harvard Business Review article “The True Measures of Success” here. ·       Read more from Michael about the economics of customer business here. If you'd like to learn more about Michael, you can find him on LinkedIn. To offer feedback or share ideas about the show, please fill out our survey here. 

Investing in customer happiness can be the surest way to high Net Promoter Scores. But how do you accomplish that while maintaining a healthy business? Michael Mauboussin, head of Consilient Research at Counterpoint Global, Morgan Stanley Investment Management, and Rob Markey discuss how expectations investing impacts valuations and business growth. The two also share insights on how companies can build a long-term investment strategy that can withstand changes in the market while attracting and retaining loyal customers. Get your copy of Michael's book, Expectations Investing, here. If you'd like to learn more about Michael, you can find him on LinkedIn. If you'd like to offer feedback or share ideas about the show, please fill out our survey here. 

In this episode, guest Allison Hartsoe, managing director of customer and growth at EY and author of The Age of Customer Equity, and Rob Markey discuss calculating customer lifetime value, why understanding customer behavior generates more accurate revenue forecasts, and how to develop a high-quality approach to customer equity. If you'd like to provide feedback on the show, please fill out our survey here.  If you'd like to learn more about Allison, you can find her on LinkedIn.

In this episode, guest Stacy Sherman, founder of Doing CX Right, and Rob Markey discuss the importance of understanding the customer's perspective when you're trying to transform the customer experience, managing high-stakes CX for an elevator and escalator business, and why companies should consider journey mapping as a strategic tool to address consumer pain points head-on. If you'd like to provide feedback on the show, please fill out our survey here.  If you'd like to learn more about Stacy, you can find her on LinkedIn.

In this episode, guest Peter Pizzi, director of customer experience and insights at Analog Devices, and Rob Markey discuss how to focus an organization on customer feedback–based actions, the role of customer experience in tackling sales challenges, and how to make sure the improvements customers are asking for make their way onto product and functional leaders' agendas. If you'd like to provide feedback on the show, please fill out our survey here. If you'd like to learn more about Peter, you can find him on LinkedIn.

In this episode, guest Andreas Heckmann, executive vice president of product engineering and head of customer solution support and innovation at SAP, and Rob Markey discuss the past, present, and future of cloud innovation as it relates to machine learning, artificial intelligence, organizational and customer challenges and opportunities, and cost savings. If you'd like to provide feedback on the show, please fill out our survey here. If you'd like to learn more about Andreas, you can find him on LinkedIn.

In this episode, guest Kentaro Kawamori, CEO and cofounder of Persefoni Inc., and Rob Markey discuss the interconnection between Net Promoter Score and organizational sustainability. If you'd like to provide feedback on the show, please fill out our survey here. If you'd like to learn more about Kentaro, you can find him on Linkedin. Bain & Company is an investor in Persefoni. Together, we've created a unique partnership combining breakthrough carbon footprint analytics with decarbonization strategy. To learn more about our partnership, visit our partnership page.

In this episode, Jason Barro, Bain & Company partner, and Rob Markey discuss NPS Prism and how it's used across various industries to drive consumer sentiment. If you'd like to provide feedback on the show, please fill out our survey here. If you'd like to learn more about Jason Barro, you can find him on LinkedIn.

In this episode, Bain Fellow Fred Reichheld and Rob Markey discuss how Earned Growth and operational indicators can provide both inspiration and learning to an organization. We also explore companies' most common Net Promoter Score mistakes, and we participate in a live audience Q&A. Please share your feedback on the podcast here. If you'd like to learn more about Fred Reichheld, you can find him on LinkedIn. This episode was sponsored by NPSx℠, a new venture from Bain & Company that provides training, certification, technology, and community to help companies enrich their customers' lives. Learn more at npsx.com.

In this episode, Mike Salguero, founder and CEO of ButcherBox, and Rob Markey discuss how a purpose-driven, direct-to-consumer meat subscription service aims to improve people's health, mitigate environmental damage, and make farming more sustainable and ethical. If you'd like to provide feedback on the show, please fill out our survey here. If you'd like to learn more about Mike Salguero, you can find him on LinkedIn.

In this episode, Zack Anderson, chief data and analytics officer at National Westminster Bank (NatWest), and Rob Markey discuss how garnering a deeper understanding of customers' perspectives improves a company's data analytics and why a more streamlined approach to extracting customer information improves client satisfaction. Zack also highlights his top strategies to ensure consumers remain responsive and satisfied with a company's offerings, approaches, and targeted communications. If you'd like to provide feedback on the show, please fill out our survey here. If you'd like to learn more about Zack Anderson you can find him on LinkedIn.

In this episode, Evan Siegel, vice president of financial services and business development at eGain, and Rob Markey discuss why customer-focused bankers need to learn how to listen to consumers' true financial needs and wants, and why empowering consumers to take charge of their financial health wins their long-term trust. If you'd like to provide feedback on the show, please fill out our survey here. If you'd like to learn more about Evan Siegel, you can find him on LinkedIn.

In this episode, Bryan Rutberg, founder and principal of 3C Communications, shares how and when to advocate on behalf of the customers you serve, and Rob Markey discusses how enhancing relationships with customers and prioritizing frontline employees' learning opportunities builds rapport vs. merely building up scores. If you'd like to provide feedback on the show, please fill out our survey here. If you'd like to learn more about Bryan Rutberg, you can find him on LinkedIn. Download Bryan's free ebook, Love & Profit: 10 Ways to Transform Customers into Lustomers, here.

In this episode, Carolyn Saunders, former senior vice president, Consumer & Small Business (Retail), International Banking, for Scotiabank and current Bain external advisor, and Rob Markey discuss how enhancing relationships with customers and prioritizing frontline employees' learning opportunities builds rapport vs. merely building up scores. If you'd like to provide feedback on the show, please fill out our survey here. If you'd like to learn more about Carolyn Saunders, you can find her on LinkedIn.

In this episode, Nate Henderson, BILT's founder and CEO, and Rob Markey discuss how to make a great customer experience an empowering experience, how to raise Net Promoter Score℠, and how BILT leverages analytics to improve customer sentiment. If you'd like to provide feedback on the show, please fill out our survey here. If you'd like to learn more about Nate Henderson, you can find him on LinkedIn.

In this episode, Ilenia Vidili, a customer-centricity adviser and author of Journey to Centricity, and Rob Markey discuss why connecting to customers means understanding what they value. When companies use their voice to stand up for something they truly believe in or to advance and improve society, customers notice. If you'd like to provide feedback on the show, please fill out our survey here. If you'd like to learn more about Ilenia Vidili, you can find her on LinkedIn. Order Ilenia's book here.

In this episode, Jon Picoult, founder and principal at Watermark Consulting, and author of From Impressed to Obsessed: 12 Principles for Turning Customers and Employees into Lifelong Fans, and Rob Markey discuss why creating fewer problems for consumers drives more value interactions and how to deliver a cost-effective experience customers value long term. If you'd like to provide feedback on the show, please fill out our survey here. If you'd like to learn more about Jon Picoult, you can find him on LinkedIn. Order Jon's book here.

In this episode, Barbara Higgins, former chief customer officer of Duke Energy, and Rob Markey discuss what customer loyalty in the utility industry looks like as well as Barbara's strategies and techniques to cultivate lasting trust. If you'd like to provide feedback on the show, please fill out our survey here. If you'd like to learn more about Barbara Higgins, you can find her on LinkedIn.

In this episode, Dr. Jason Guardino of The Permanente Medical Group and Rob Markey discuss how healthcare organizations like Jason's are helping physicians and care facilities create meaningful and valuable patient experiences that promote better care outcomes. If you'd like to provide feedback on the show, please fill out our survey here. If you'd like to learn more about Jason Guardino, you can find him on LinkedIn.

In the workplace, biased language and treatment can often slip by without consequence, leaving those discriminated against feeling powerless or unheard. But Just Work cofounders Trier Bryant and Kim Scott believe integrating bias disruptors in the workplace can help all who experience or observe bias speak up and address it in the moment. In this episode, Kim, Trier, and I discuss how bias disruptors can contribute to a just work environment and what leadership can do to root out and recognize bias.