Podcast appearances and mentions of Anita Hill

Episode 20In this podcast, professional astrologers Chani Nicholas, Thea Anderson, and Eliza Robertson look to the sky to make sense of what's happening here on Earth.This episode brings you into the astrological group chat to talk through how the Full Moon in Scorpio, the Uranus cazimi, and Jupiter's square to the lunar nodes have manifested IRL. We get into everything from the Democratic cover-up of Joe Biden's decline to the start of the Diddy trial, the fire at a 166-year-old plantation, and the selection of the new Pope — then we break down how these key astrological events have shown up in the collective. We also look ahead to Saturn's shift into Aries and unpack what that transit means for anyone entering a Saturn return, or any other significant Saturn transit. We rant. We reflect. We keep it real. There's a lot to get to, so let's get going.Content warning: sex trafficking, sexual assault, genocide, slavery, murder, wildfiresTimestamps:(00:00) - Welcome to Down to Astro episode 20(08:56) - Personal stories from the Scorpio Full Moon(15:00) - Political reflections: Joe Biden's Scorpio stellium(21:00) - The Diddy trial: uncovering dark secrets(26:56) - Cassie's case and the Mars Synodic Cycle(36:44) - Historical parallels: Anita Hill and Cassie(38:16) - Mars cazimi, 1991 and now: South Africa in the news(42:22) - The Full Moon and high-profile trials(44:48) - The importance of centering survivors(48:08) - Saturn, Ceres, and Cassie on the stand(50:42) -  Burning down the past: Neptune and the Nottoway Plantation fire(57:39) - The Scorpio Moon, the Mars–Pluto opposition, and global politics(01:07:39) - Power outages, tech failures, and the Uranus cazimi(01:14:04) - The significance of Jupiter's square to the nodes of the Moon(01:18:21) - Jupiter, ChatGPT, and the impact of tech in higher education(01:22:44) - The astrology of Pope Leo XIV(01:30:45) - Saturn's shift into Aries(01:37:40) - Navigating your second Saturn return(01:39:45) - Saturn squares: key Saturn transits in your 30s and 40s(01:41:09) - Upcoming astrological shifts: Saturn in Aries and Jupiter in CancerThis episode was recorded on 5/20/2025.For more astrological insights, download the CHANI app or follow CHANI on Instagram, TikTok, and Bluesky.The song “Midas,” featured in the podcast, was created by NISHA and is available wherever you listen to music.This episode also mentioned the following creative works:Original Sin: President Biden's Decline, Its Cover-Up, and His Disastrous Choice to Run Again by Jake Tapper and Alex ThompsonWe Do Not Care Club series on TikTok by @justbeingmelaniDoppelganger by Naomi KleinP.S. The transcript for this episode is available here.

Welcome to the fifth season of ShiftMakers. In these challenging times – whether we're dealing with concerns about the current political landscape, global issues, or personal struggles – part one of this special two-part episode features an impressive collection of renowned women from host Marianne Schnall's archival interviews, offering wisdom and advice for meeting challenges with strength and resilience. The following thought leaders share powerful insights on viewing hard times as opportunities to learn and grow, drawing on history for encouragement, taking time for self-care, holding onto hope, and much more: Stacey Abrams, Maya Angelou, Cori Bush, Brittany Packnett Cunningham, Sally Field, Jane Fonda, Roshi Joan Halifax, Anita Hill, Arianna Huffington, Luvvie Ajayi Jones, Elizabeth Lesser, Wangari Maathai, Amy Poehler, Gloria Steinem, V (formerly Eve Ensler), and Oprah Winfrey. This episode is also available in video form, featuring archival video clips and captions, which can be found on Spotify or Marianne Schnall's YouTube channel.  To learn more about Marianne Schnall, please visit MarianneSchnall.com Podcast Art by Kyle Hollingsworth kyle-creative.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Översiktsserien fortsätter. Det kommer handla om upprörande konst, underminera aborträtten, nomineringen av Clarence Thomas, Anita Hill skandalen, Tailhook- och Packwoodaffärerna, Rodney King, upplopp i LA och rollen som Reagans arvtagare. Bild: Clarence Thomas, med fru Virginia i bakgrunden, svärs in som domare i högsta domstolen av domaren Byron White 1991. Källa: WikipediaPrenumerera: Glöm inte att prenumerera på podcasten! Betyg: Ge gärna podden betyg på iTunes!Följ podden: Facebook (facebook.com/stjarnbaneret), twitter (@stjarnbaneret), Instagram (@stjarnbaneret)Kontakt: stjarnbaneret@gmail.comLitteratur översikt USA:s historia- Liberty, Equality, Power: A history of the American People, John Murrin, Paul Johnson, James McPherson, m.fl.- Give me liberty: An American history, Eric Foner- America: A concise History, James Henretta, Rebecka Edwards, Robert Self- Inventing America: A history of the United States, Pauline Maier, Merrit Roe Smith, m.fl.- Nation of Nations: A narrative history of the American republic, James West Davidson, Mark Lytle, m.fl.- The American Pageant, David Kennedy, Lizabeth Cohen, Thomas Bailey- Making America: A history of the United States, Carol Berking, Robert Cherney, m.fl.- America: A narrative history, George Brown Tindall, David Emory Shi- The American Promise: A history of the United States, James Roark, Maichael Johnson, m.fl. - The American People: Creating a nation and a society, Gary Nash, John Howe, m.fl.- Of the People: A history of the United States, James Oaks, Michael McGerr, m.fl.- The enduring vision: A history of the American People, Paul Boyer, Clifford Clark, m.fl.Litteratur för denna era:- Deadlock and disillusionment, Gary Reichard- The age of Reagan, Sean Wilenz- The American Century, LaFeber, Polenberg, Woloch. - American Dreams: The United States since 1945, H. Brands- Recent America: The United States since 1945, Dewey Grantham- Restless Giant, James Patterson Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Following a contract lapse into the new year, the City of Atlanta has entered into a multi-year agreement with Policing Alternatives & Diversion Initiative (PAD). The nonprofit organization offers wraparound services to people experiencing extreme poverty, substance use and mental health disorders. Moki Macias, the executive director of PAD, and her client, David Lee, talk with Rose about the PAD program, the new contract and what’s next for the organization. Plus, we revisit Rose’s conversation with Anita Hill. The longtime lawyer and educator reflects on her 1991 testimony that the then-Supreme Court nominee Clarence Thomas sexually harassed her. She also talks about her ongoing fight to end gender-based violence and the inspiration behind her book, “Believing: Our Thirty-Year Journey to End Gender Violence.”See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Host Marianne Schnall shares a collection of insights on "What would it mean for the U.S. to finally elect a woman president?” from her recent interviews with an esteemed group of thought leaders about Kamala Harris's historic run for President. They each share their perspectives on what the possible impact of finally breaking that glass ceiling would be (1:23), how it could open doors for women and girls (5:46), and also broaden our cultural perceptions of leadership across generations (13:12). They also elaborate on the potential global impact of a Harris Presidency (16:31), what it would mean for the U.S. to join the ranks of other nations who have women heads of state (17:44), and much more. With quotes from Ted Bunch, Glynda Carr, Jasmine Crockett, Anita Hill, Carol Jenkins, María Teresa Kumar, Barbara Lee, Kimberly Peeler-Allen, Nancy Pelosi, Ai-jen Poo, and Erin Vilardi.

President Trump's rally at Madison Square Garden in New York City. We're joined by John Dombroski, founder and president of Grand Canyon Planning. Using the term "democracy" versus "republic." Anita Hill's guest essay in The New York Times "The Smearing of Kamala Harris."See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Send us a textIn this episode we listen in on a number of the giant figures of the era in the United States Senate as they debate the confirmation of Judge Clarence Thomas. It is a whose who of some of the the towering political figures of the era. They will debate Clarence Thomas's political positions, their concerns about his Judical rulings, and his positions on natural law, and abortion rights but always the question of sexual harrassment will linger in the air. We will also feature commentary from the coverage of NBC News with Tom Brokaw and Andrea Mitchell as they count the votes right up until they actually do vote on the nomination of Clarence Thomas, the numbers will be close as the Senate prepares to vote.  Questions or comments at , Randalrgw1@aol.com , https://twitter.com/randal_wallace , and http://www.randalwallace.com/Please Leave us a review at wherever you get your podcastsThanks for listening!!

Send us a textIn this episode we hear the Senators ask questions of both Clarence Thomas and his accuser, Anita Hill. The questions and the answers can be at times graphic, deeply personal, and revealing. The Senators often were portrayed as sexist for the grilling they put to Anita Hill. However, some questions needed to be asked, like why did she stay in touch with Thomas for years after the alleged harassment had occurred. To both of their credit, they answered them all and I will leave it to you to decide as you listen if you find one more credible than the other as the hearing unfolded.  Questions or comments at , Randalrgw1@aol.com , https://twitter.com/randal_wallace , and http://www.randalwallace.com/Please Leave us a review at wherever you get your podcastsThanks for listening!!

Send us a textIn this episode we hear directly from the accuser and the accused just as if it happened yesterday. This episode will also have both of the people involved give addresses and opening comments from both the Chairman , Joe Biden, and the ranking member, Strom Thurmond. It is a fascinating look back at  tumultuous times and you will get to hear both sides of the argument as we feature both the accuser, Anita Hill, and the accused Clarence Thomas as they open up their lives for close examination  .   Questions or comments at , Randalrgw1@aol.com , https://twitter.com/randal_wallace , and http://www.randalwallace.com/Please Leave us a review at wherever you get your podcastsThanks for listening!!

This Day in Legal History: Anita Hill Testifies in Clarence Thomas Confirmation HearingOn October 11, 1991, law professor Anita Hill testified before the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee during the confirmation hearings for Supreme Court nominee Clarence Thomas. Hill, who had worked under Thomas at the Department of Education and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), accused him of harassment. Her testimony detailed allegations of inappropriate behavior by Thomas, igniting a national conversation about sexual harassment in the workplace.The hearings were televised and widely watched, drawing public attention to issues of power dynamics and gender in professional settings. Hill's testimony was met with intense scrutiny, and she was questioned by the all-male committee, led by Senator Joe Biden. Despite the controversy, the Senate ultimately confirmed Thomas to the Supreme Court by a narrow vote of 52-48.Hill's courage to speak publicly about her experiences had a profound and lasting impact. It helped raise awareness of sexual harassment and workplace rights, influencing the way such cases were viewed and addressed in the years to come. Her testimony is often seen as a pivotal moment in the evolution of the #MeToo movement, decades before it formally emerged.Donald Trump's legal troubles are far from over, with seven significant cases involving him still in the lower courts. These include two federal criminal cases, two state-level criminal prosecutions, and three civil lawsuits. The federal criminal charges, pursued by Special Counsel Jack Smith, focus on Trump's attempts to overturn the 2020 election and his retention of classified documents. If Trump regains the presidency, he may try to pardon himself or have the Justice Department drop these cases. However, state criminal charges, such as his conviction in New York over hush money payments and the Georgia election interference case, are beyond the reach of a presidential pardon.Civil cases against Trump include a New York fraud judgment related to his business practices and two defamation lawsuits from writer E. Jean Carroll. If Trump loses the 2024 election, these cases are likely to proceed and could eventually reach the Supreme Court. The Court has already ruled that former presidents have immunity from prosecution for actions taken as part of their official duties. The outcome of these cases, particularly any involving the Court, may depend heavily on the results of the November election. If Trump wins, the state cases will at least ostensibly remain–but it is likely that his administration would move to end some or all of the federal cases against him. Election may decide if Trump's legal woes reach US Supreme Court or wither | ReutersOn October 10, 2024, Boeing filed an unfair labor practice charge with the National Labor Relations Board against the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, the union representing around 33,000 striking workers on the U.S. West Coast. The strike, which has lasted four weeks, involves workers at Boeing's factories, including its facility in Renton, Washington. Boeing accused the union of failing to negotiate in good faith, alleging a pattern of bad faith bargaining and spreading misinformation to union members about the status of negotiations. This comes amid an ongoing labor dispute, with Boeing workers demanding better terms, while the company attempts to resolve the strike and resume production. The outcome of the charge could influence future labor negotiations between Boeing and the union.Boeing files unfair labor practice charge against striking union | ReutersItaly is considering expanding its digital services tax (DST) in the 2025 budget, which could reignite trade tensions with the United States. The DST, originally introduced in 2019, imposes a 3% tax on revenue from digital transactions by large tech companies like Google, Meta, and Amazon, many of which are American. The tax currently generates around €400 million annually, but Italian policymakers are exploring ways to increase revenue by raising the tax rate or lowering the revenue thresholds for companies subject to the tax.The U.S. has consistently opposed unilateral DSTs, viewing them as unfairly targeting American companies, and previously threatened tariffs in response to similar taxes in Europe. Although a prior agreement prevented such retaliation, Italy's new DST expansion could bring this issue back to the forefront. If the U.S. imposes tariffs, it could harm key Italian industries like manufacturing and agriculture, potentially straining diplomatic relations and weakening Italy's influence in international tax reform discussions.Italy's move reflects frustrations over stalled global tax reforms under the OECD's Pillar One framework. While expanding the DST might provide short-term fiscal relief as Italy faces rising debt and inflation, it risks further damaging trade and diplomatic relations with the U.S.Italy's Digital Tax Gambit—Will US Trade Retaliation Follow? This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.minimumcomp.com/subscribe

This week's “Extra Sugar” was inspired by Designing Women, S6 E7, “The Strange Case of Clarence and Anita”.  That would be Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas (then nominee) and Anita Hill, the woman who testified he had sexually harassed her years earlier when he was her supervisor.  We'll talk about the aftermath of her testimony and then discuss where we are now. Our conversation circles issues of sexual misconduct, harassment, and assault, so please take care of yourself. 

Send us a textThe accusations against Clarence Thomas explode on to the scene just the day before he was going to be voted on for placement of the Space Court. The news was a bombshell in the hearings and the two sides were aimed for a fight. In this episode we listen to the man that had originally employed Clarence Thomas as he worked his way up the legal ladder to serve as a District Judge and now a potential Supreme Court Justice.  Senator John Danforth will step up and hold a press conference in defense of his former employee who was now poised to become the a Supreme Court Justice, or maybe not.This is the opening act for the hearings that will get underway later the next morning.  Questions or comments at , Randalrgw1@aol.com , https://twitter.com/randal_wallace , and http://www.randalwallace.com/Please Leave us a review at wherever you get your podcastsThanks for listening!!

In our second episode, we're digging into all things Mary Jo. How did season 6 treat her? Is she up or down? We'll discuss our picks for her best and worst episodes, as well as her cringiest and funniest moments. We're also trying out a new segment “Technology Takedown” where we upend a plot by simply adding one magic ingredient: a smart phone.  Come back on Thursday for an “Extra Sugar” inspired by Mary Jo's rant over the outcome of Anita Hill's testimony back in 1991. 

Send us a textIn July of 1991, Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall announced his retirement as a Supreme Court Justice. That would set off the second ugliest fight to date to fill a Supreme Court seat. Only the fight over the nomination of Robert Bork was tougher and Bork lost. Clarence Thomas was a conservative justice, he was young at age 43, and had had a distinguished career as the head of Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and he served on the District of Columbia Court of Appeals, He was a Yale Graduate and he had an undergraduate Degree from Holy Cross. He would also be the second African American to sit on the Supreme Court but he was not a liberal nor a Democrat. That guaranteed him a fight on issues concerning Civil Rights, Affirmative Action, and Abortion rights. Those fights turned out to be only the first round of the Hearings to confirm him. An accusation had been made in some of the FBI reports that had been checking his background and in typical Washington style, it got leaked. That led to round 2 and a long debate about the sordid tale of sexual harassment between the Conferee and a former employee he had at the EEOC, Dr. Anita Hill. This is the story of some of the most heated hearings ever held on Capitol Hill.  Questions or comments at , Randalrgw1@aol.com , https://twitter.com/randal_wallace , and http://www.randalwallace.com/Please Leave us a review at wherever you get your podcastsThanks for listening!!

As the country is poised to possibly elect our first woman president who is also a woman of color, host Marianne Schnall asks law professor and activist Anita Hill to share her insights on the historic moment we're in. Hill discusses the engagement she's seeing from women and the younger generation in this election (3:10), the sexism and racism VP Harris has been facing (11:31), how our perceptions of leadership are evolving (16:09), the importance of diversity in leadership and politics (22:57), the significance of Black women leaders throughout history (20:08), her advice for young people today (35:14), and much more.

In this episode of "Ken Hance: The Best Storyteller in Texas," Kent explores a range of compelling topics. The episode kicks off with the saying "war is hell," leading to a discussion on the recent Israel-Gaza conflict and the innovative tactics of the Mossad. Chancellor Hance also shares personal anecdotes, including a kidnapping story that underscores the impact of stress. The conversation also touches on the importance of verifying health information online, the significance of civic engagement, and strategies for managing stress. The episode concludes with reflections on Thanksgiving planning and historical insights from international trips. [object Object]Saying of the Day: "War is Hell" (00:00:20) Discussion on the implications of the recent conflict in Israel and Gaza. Mossad's Innovative Tactics (00:01:23) Insight into Mossad's use of pagers for targeting militants, leading to significant casualties. Impact of Warfare on Communication (00:02:41) How terrorists adapted their communication methods in response to Israeli tactics. Hezbollah's Response to Israeli Tactics (00:04:09) Details on the aftermath of the pager detonations and Hezbollah's reaction. Rules of War Debate (00:05:29) Discussion on the violation of war rules by both Hamas and Israel. Historical Context of Conflict (00:06:43) Comparisons to past conflicts and the challenges of negotiating peace. Future of Warfare Techniques (00:09:19) Speculation on how the tactics used might change future warfare. Supreme Court Tenure Discussion (00:10:39) Reflection on the lengthy tenures of Supreme Court justices and its implications. Clarence Thomas and Anita Hill (00:10:45) Recap of the significant events surrounding Clarence Thomas's confirmation hearings. Supreme Court Structure and Changes (00:11:41) Concerns about altering the structure and lifetime appointments of justices. Bobby Sing's Unique Achievements (00:13:43) Highlighting Bobby Sing's success across multiple football leagues. Stress Factors in Life (00:15:04) Discussion on money and economy as primary stressors for individuals. Health Impacts of Long-term Stress (00:16:10) Exploration of how prolonged stress can lead to health issues. The Anatomy of a Kidnapping (00:16:22) Overview of Dr. Steve Burke's experiences and insights on stress from his kidnapping. The Anatomy of a Kidnapping (00:17:47) Discussion about a book on kidnapping and the author's experience being held for 10-12 hours. Public Awareness of Health (00:19:07) Speakers reflect on how the internet has made the public more informed about health issues. Impact of Elections on Stress (00:19:57) Exploration of how upcoming elections can cause stress and their importance on various government levels. Handling Stress Through Music (00:20:52) Advice on managing stress, including listening to music and talking to supportive friends. Thanksgiving Planning (00:21:51) Speaker shares personal anecdotes about Thanksgiving planning and family dynamics during the holiday. Avoiding Political Discussions (00:23:02) Discussion on the challenges of avoiding politics in social situations, especially for politically active individuals. Upcoming Congressional Trip (00:23:40) Speaker mentions an upcoming trip to Ireland with former members of Congress, highlighting the historical aspect. Reagan and Gorbachev Meeting (00:24:08) Reflection on a historical meeting between Reagan and Gorbachev, and its portrayal in a movie. Wrap-Up and Saying of the Day (00:25:21) Conclusion of the episode, reiterating the saying of the day: "war is hell."

Lights on! A bombshell report reveals Felon Trump's hand-picked NC Governor candidate Mark Robinson as a self-proclaimed “Nazi perv,” while VP Harris holds a powerful and star-studded campaign event with Oprah in Detroit. Robinson wants to be compared to Clarence Thomas, so we'll take a trip down memory lane with Anita Hill and more women we should listen to, thank you very much. Kamala continues to surge, as does early voting, so MAGA Republicans are ramping up their attacks on the electoral process from Georgia to Nebraska. And Haitians fight back as Trump and Vance continue to terrorize Springfield with vile lies. Jessica Denson reports this and more on this LIVE episode of Lights On. Miracle Made: Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made! Go to https://TryMiracle.com/LIGHTS and use the code LIGHTS to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF. HumanN: Find out how you can get a free 30-day supply on bundles of new SuperBeets Heart Chews Advanced and save 15% for a limited time only by going to https://GETSUPERBEETS.COM, promo code Jessica Support Jessica Denson's legal fund here: http://thejessicadenson.com/donate Subscribe to Jessica's Youtube: https://youtube.com/@JessicaDenson07 Remember to subscribe to ALL the MeidasTouch Network Podcasts: MeidasTouch: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/meidastouch-podcast Legal AF: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/legal-af MissTrial: https://meidasnews.com/tag/miss-trial The PoliticsGirl Podcast: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-politicsgirl-podcast The Influence Continuum: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-influence-continuum-with-dr-steven-hassan Mea Culpa with Michael Cohen: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/mea-culpa-with-michael-cohen The Weekend Show: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-weekend-show Burn the Boats: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/burn-the-boats Majority 54: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/majority-54 Political Beatdown: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/political-beatdown Lights On with Jessica Denson: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/lights-on-with-jessica-denson On Democracy with FP Wellman: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/on-democracy-with-fpwellman Uncovered: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/maga-uncovered Coalition of the Sane: https://meidasnews.com/tag/coalition-of-the-sane Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this introductory episode of our special election series, host Marianne Schnall shares how her young daughter's question, “Why haven't we ever had a woman president?” led to Schnall interviewing some of today's most respected voices on women's leadership for her 2013 book What Will It Take to Make a Woman President? Now, with Kamala Harris' run making the themes around electing a woman president more timely than ever, listen to insights from Anita Hill (10:19), Gloria Steinem (11:32), Congresswoman Barbara Lee (8:45), and New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof (9:40) on the importance of having more representation and diversity, Kirsten Gillibrand (12:22) and Cecile Richards (13:00) on protecting women's rights, Nancy Pelosi (22:41) and President Jimmy Carter (6:42) on the need for more women in Washington, and many other voices and topics. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Show Notes Episode 455: We Have Clearance Clarence Part Three of Summer Series 2024 This week Host Dave Bledsoe stumbles in a butch lesbian bar and finds himself among people who will FINALLY buy him drinks. (They found him so harmless they adopted him!) On the show week we talk about the horniest Supreme Court Justice nominee since Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr., Horny Clarence Thomas! (Check your coke cans for pubes folks!) Along the way we chart Dave's evolution from misogynist pig to soft soy boy. (One of the few good things he's done with his life!) Then we dive right into our story about a young man, an abusive grandfathers and his dream to eradicate Civil Rights for African Americans and finally repeal that pesky 13th Amendment.(He might just do it!) We follow his life journey from black radical to radical fascism with stops in pornography, misogyny and gross sexual harassment on the way! We meet Anita Hill, the woman who stood up to Horny Clarence but was not a match for Genial Joe Biden.  Finally, we examine the legacy of Anita Hill for women and how Clarence Thomas fucking won in the end. (Not a happy story.) Our Sponsor this week is Rent-A-Justice, when you don't have enough money to buy a Supreme Court Justice outright you can rent to own one!  We open with news coverage of Horny Clarence and close with Clarence Carter who be strokin'! Show Theme: Hypnostate Prelude to Common Sense The Show on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheHell_Podcast The Show on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/whatthehellpodcast/ The Show on Youtube:  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjxP5ywpZ-O7qu_MFkLXQUQ The Show on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/whatthehellwereyouthinkingpod/ Our Discord Server: https://discord.gg/kHmmrjptrq Our Website: www.whatthehellpodcast.com Give us your money on Patreon  https://www.patreon.com/Whatthehellpodcast The Show Line: 347 687 9601 Closing Music: https://youtu.be/NO0SFWYIZNg?si=uol1gdDxQQjihJ28 We are a proud member of the Seltzer Kings Podcast Network! http://seltzerkings.com/ Citations Needed: Wikipedia: Clarence Thomas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Thomas#Early_life Unforgiven https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/11/12/unforgiven Ex-Companion Details ‘Real' Thomas https://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/23/us/politics/23thomas.html Opening Statement of Anita Hill to the Senate Judiciary Committee https://web.archive.org/web/20180304163805/http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/PDFFiles/Anita%20Hill%20-%20Opening%20Statement.pdf Senators' Private Deal Kept ‘2nd Woman' Off TV : Thomas: Democrats feared Republican attacks on Angela Wright's public testimony. Biden's handling of the hearing is criticized. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-10-17-mn-911-story.html Becoming the Third Wave by Rebecca Walker https://heathengrrl.blogspot.com/2007/02/becoming-third-wave-by-rebecca-walker.html Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Lisa MacLean, founder of Moxie Media - the first female-founded political direct mail firm in the U.S - talks her path to politics...starting in St Louis and then Vassar, to impactful DC internships, managing campaigns in California and eventually starting her own mail firm in the late 1990s that recently celebrated its 25th Anniversary. In this conversation, Lisa talks overcoming adversity as a young woman in politics, the nuts and bolts of how she started her own firm, some of her big races and wins, direct mail best practices and trends, and much more from her 30+ years as a top political operative.IN THIS EPISODEGrowing up middle-class in the St. Louis suburbs...The searing experience in 9th grade that drove home the importance of politics...How the Senate vote to confirm Clarence Thomas changed the course of Lisa's career...Lisa talks what it was like to go to college at Vassar in the late 80s...Lessons learned during and after the 1992 "Year of the Woman"...A personal story Lisa tells about a very difficult experience as a young woman in a media firm...How Lisa decided to start her own direct mail firm and how she got it off the ground...The biggests changes in direct mail over Lisa's 25 years in the business...Some of the memorable races where Lisa feels smart direct mail made a difference...The direct mail trends Lisa is monitoring...Lessons Lisa learned in running and growing a successful mail firm over 25 years...The story behind the name "Moxie Media"...A glimpse into living in rural, coastal Washington (state)...AND Jill Alper, Sasha Bruce, Andrea Campbell, Yadira Caraveo, Amy Chapman, Tony Coehlo, Michael Dukakis, free shrimp cocktail, Patty Garamendi, The Good Neighbor News, Lisa Grove, Anita Hill, Trish Hoppey, Mary Hughes, Tishaura Jones, Celinda Lake, Kevin Mack, Hal Malchow, Laurie Moskowitz, Pat Moynihan, Adnaan Muslin, Amy Pritchard, Rich Schlackman, Amy Simon, Heather Stone, Clarence Thomas, tomboys, Henry Underhill, Karen White, the Womens Information Network, Harriett Woods...& more!

Tawny and Lisa talk with composer Melissa Dunphy, an award-winning composer who specializes in vocal, political, and theatric music. Her work includes, LISTEN (2019), two choral movements set to testimony by Anita Hill in 1991 and Christine Blasey Ford in 2018. They talk about creating art as a tool for healing trauma and understanding ourselves. Creating art is for everyone, whether you consider yourself an artist or not. Music Minute features classical music, opera, and a lot of Nine Inch Nails. Check out Melissa's website and her podcast, The Boghouse.  Check out this easy-to-read book about classical music. Order Tawny's book, DRY HUMPING: A Guide to Dating, Relating, and Hooking Up Without the Booze Sign up for Tawny's newsletter, "Beyond Liquid Courage" Order Tawny's new NA drink, (parentheses) Sign up for Tawny's Nonfiction Book Proposal Boot Camp here. Order Lisa's memoir, Girl Walks Out of a Bar

Despite best intentions, sexual harassment is still a very prevalent issue that impacts the legal profession on a wide, wide basis to this day. In this episode, Rio sits down with the founders of Women Lawyers on Guard to discuss their work to confront sexual harassment, and other issues impacting women in law and what you (yes! You!) can do about it. — Rio Peterson:  Hello, everybody, and welcome to In Brief episode 83, Women Lawyers on Guard. My name is Rio Peterson. I am the Bar Partnership Strategist at ALPS, and today, I'm going to be chatting with two fantastically inspiring women, Cory Amron and Corrine Parver. Cory, Corrine, thank you so much for joining us. It's great to have you.  Corrine Parver:  Thanks so much.  Cory Amron:  Thank you, Rio.  Rio Peterson:  Thank you.  Cory Amron:  I'm really pleased to be here.  Rio Peterson:  Wonderful. So, before we dive in, I know we've got a really interesting conversation ahead of us today, which I've been very looking forward to for the past few weeks, since we had our first chat. But before we started, I wanted to find out if you could tell us a little bit about you, who you are, where you live, where you came from. Corey, why don't we start with you?  Cory Amron:  Okay, great. Alphabetical order. I live in Arlington, Virginia, right outside of Washington, D.C. I've been here for yeah, 30 some-odd years. I'm now retired, but I worked primarily for a number of law firms that, some of which are no longer around, but most recently retired from the firm of Vorys, Sater, Seymour and Pease, which started as a Midwest-based firm, here in D.C.  I have been working over my 40-year legal career not only day-to-day clients, et cetera, but also on women's and diversity issues. So, for instance, I was the chair of the American Bar Association's Commission on Women in the Profession, the second chair. In 1991, I took over right over right as Anita Hill was testifying in the Senate at Clarence Thomas' confirmation hearing. So, that was kind of a trial by fire.  Rio Peterson:  Right.  Cory Amron:  So, I've also had a lot of experience working on sexual harassment and things like that, and then, fast-forward, co-founded Women Lawyers on Guard in 2017.  Rio Peterson:  Great. All right, fantastic. Corrine, how about you?  Corrine Parver:  I'm also a retired lawyer. First career was as a physical therapist for 15 years before going to law school. So, I went to law school primarily because I wanted to work in the health law area. My practice, when I was a partner in a law firm, was geared towards policy, regulations, as opposed to litigation.  After I retired from practicing law, I was a law professor for close to 10 years, where I created the Health Law and Policy program at American University Washington College of Law and enjoyed teaching the young students and remained involved with the law school over the past few years, even though I am retired from actually teaching, and joined forces with Cory and our gang of warriors in 2017 to now be the president of Women Lawyers on Guard Action Network.  Rio Peterson:  Got it. So, you both retired to then go on to do more incredible things in your post-retired life. Fantastic. Now, you mentioned you both founded and you run Women Lawyers on Guard. We know that's a nonprofit organization that's been doing some really especially important work around understanding and addressing sexual harassment in the legal profession, and that's what obviously what we're here to talk about today. So, before we really dig into the deeper part of this conversation, I'd love for the audience to learn a bit more about what Women Lawyers on Guard does. What is your mission? Why don't you tell us a little bit about how everything got started?  Cory Amron:  Okay, so in the end of 2016, I was a member of a national network of women lawyers, and we decided that we really needed to do something, both to protect women's rights that we had worked so hard over 40 plus years, and also expand women's rights into the next couple of years. So, we organized Women Lawyers on Guard that first year, in 2017, to bring together our volunteers, because as I said, we have a network around the country, with the legal needs of other nonprofits.  Corrine and I went around and met with a lot of nonprofits and asked them what their legal needs were, because we weren't quite sure what exactly we wanted to do. We wanted to do something. And frankly, our volunteers didn't know exactly what they wanted to do, either. So, this was sort of marriages made in heaven, and we would match our volunteers with those legal needs.  After about a year or so of doing that, we decided we really needed to focus our areas, and that's when we did some very heavy-duty strategic planning and came up with three areas that we were going to focus on. So, sexual harassment obviously was key, because right at that time, #metoo exploded, but we decided also that we were not going to just do one area, but we also picked women's reproductive rights, which actually at that time was not exploding but is of course now, and gender and workplace equity. Those are the three.  Rio Peterson:  Right. I'm curious to know, how was it that sexual harassment and this area was something you both identified as an area that you wanted to be involved in? Is this something that's impacted you directly in your life? I mean, you both had pretty incredible, long careers, so I suspect that at some point, you may have encountered this.  Corrine Parver:  Well, as Cory said, the #metoo explosion made it even more impressed upon us that we needed to speak up for this particular area, and there were other groups that were focusing on, for example, Hollywood and the restaurant industry, and the marketing and public relations areas. We thought we needed to focus on the legal profession, and that's because we had heard stories for years, the years that we practiced, that this was a concern with people.  We wanted to be able to represent their interests and try to do something about it, and that's how we got really involved in focusing on the legal profession, because no other group was doing that on a national basis. There were some people statewide doing certain surveys and the like, but not on a national basis. And because we were, and are, a national organization, that's what we decided to focus on.  Cory Amron:  And just if I could add too, that when we started to talk to lots of people in the profession when #metoo exploded, and came to determine really that there were those who didn't see it happening in the legal profession, either because well, because it wasn't happening to them, and so they just thought, "Well, we have all of these policies, and we have these trainings, and that's ... we're good to go."  Then, we talked to other people, and not just young people, who said, "Oh my God, let me tell you what happened yesterday to me," or to my colleague, or to somebody I was in the room with, et cetera. It was like, "Ugh." We'll get into our survey, but that's kind of what led us to do that.  Rio Peterson:  Got it. Right. Absolutely. So, really realizing that despite best intentions, this is still a very prevalent issue that impacts the legal profession on a wide, wide basis. So, let's talk quickly a little bit about DWL's mission. I know you mentioned that you focus on three areas, and what is the overarching mission of your organization?  Cory Amron:  Well, we have a very broad mission because again, as I mentioned, we didn't quite know what we were going to do at the beginning. So, our mission is that we are a national network harnessing the power of the law to ... well, to go after and make sure that people have equality, they have justice, and there's equal opportunity for all. So, it's a very broad mission. We have a 501(c)(3), which is the one behind me, and we have a 501(c)(4) which is what's behind Corrine, so that we can do different things in these spaces with the different organizations.  For instance, obviously we do a lot of programming around these topics, and of course with the pandemic, we've been able to do that around the country. We not only sign onto amicus briefs, but we've also written amicus briefs, particularly one in the Dobbs case, on behalf of women lawyer organizations, which of course was ignored. We do studies, obviously we'll talk about them, and initiatives around these various topics.  And of course, we have this network that we activate when needs be, and we also advocate. As I said, we have different arms that we can do different types of things, but we've done lobbying and with letters, advocating to policymakers. We sign petitions, and we get out there and march.  Corrine Parver:  I've had some really interesting experiences doing that. One of the other things that we do also is work in coalition with other groups there from out of the University of Texas, The Council on Women and the Law and the National Conference of Women Bar Associations, and the National Association of Women Lawyers. So, we have done programs with all of those groups and attended various coalition meetings to learn about what these groups are doing. The American Bar association also, as Cory had mentioned earlier, has a commission on women in the profession, and we are looking to collaborate with them, as well.  Rio Peterson:  All right. Fantastic. I know we're kind of deviating just a little bit, but we will definitely be talking about the survey, but I'm curious to know, so obviously, you're doing a lot. You're doing a lot of work, and so is the organization run primarily by volunteers? I'm guessing you have a pretty incredible team.  Corrine Parver:  Yes, we are. We are 100% volunteer-driven, and it's pretty much been the same board of directors that have been together since its inception. We've had some people go into certain government roles that prohibited them from continuing to be on our board, but they all, they continue to support us. We have a Facebook presence. We have a LinkedIn presence, and Instagram, trying to make ourselves known via social media. So, through that, we get our messages out to the various communities.  Rio Peterson:  Got it. Oh, fantastic. Fantastic. It's really wonderful that you're devoting your time to this undertaking. It's fantastic.  Cory Amron:  And we're always looking for more to grow our network.  Rio Peterson:  Fantastic. I think at the end of the chat, we'll have a chance to ... We'll plug and let everyone know where to get ahold of you and how they can participate.  Cory Amron:  That's great. That's super.  Rio Peterson:  All right, so now, we've kind of alluded to a survey a few different times, so I would love to dive into that, because it's really, really fascinating. So, in 2020, I know you published a report titled Still Broken, and that shared the results of the national survey that was conducted by Women Lawyers on Guard, and the intention of the survey was to better understand not so much the prevalence of sexual harassment but rather the experience of those affected by it, in addition to uncovering the impact that this has on the legal profession. So, I would really love to know if you could share with us some of the methodology behind the survey itself, and expand on how the survey is different from typical surveys about sexual harassment.  Corrine Parver:  What we were very fortunate in being able to collaborate with a well-known researcher who is a woman by the name of Dr. Arin Reeves, who is also a lawyer in addition to having her PhD in certain aspects of statistical analyses. We put together a group that went through the actual drafting of the survey questions, and it took us a good couple of months to be able to go back and forth to hone in on all the areas that we wanted to investigate.  Rio Peterson:  Right.  Corrine Parver:  Cory?  Cory Amron:  Yeah, so what else? My job actually was sending this out and trying to get people to respond it. So, it was not a survey where it was a closed box of respondents. It was a survey where we were just trying to get as many people as we could to respond to it, both women and men. Lo and behold, we did get a representative sample, even though we hadn't put that sample together, but we analyzed it afterwards and compared it to the demographics that the ABA keeps about lawyers, and was very representative of the box of the profession and where people were geographically, and ages and things like that. So, it was, we felt, a pretty good picture of what was going on.  We were also, because we asked people to tell us the sort of 10-year tranche when something that they were talking about in the survey occurred, we were able to measure change over time, and I think that's one of the things about the survey that's been extremely valuable, to be able to say, "This was like this, and now it's like this."  Corrine Parver:  We also gave the respondents the opportunity to comment throughout the survey questions. So, when it came time to look at an issue of great import, we allowed comments.  When we collated all the information, we gathered literally hundreds of different comments from our respondents, and included some of the quotes from their comments in an appendix in the Still Broken report. So, I would encourage everyone who listens to this podcast to actually go online to our website and read the report, and also the appendices, so that they can see the lasting effect of some of the experiences that they went through.  Rio Peterson:  Absolutely, and that's something that really stood out to me when I was reading the report. I think it's very often that we overlook the context surrounding these types of experiences, and I found that that really just added so much depth to understanding the issue and just understanding the experiences of those who have been impacted by sexual harassment in their workplace and just in all different ways. It was really unique, I think, the way that you've approached this. Yeah. Can you share with us some of the results of the study?  Cory Amron:  Yes, absolutely. Well, first, I guess I wanted to say some of the positive things that we saw. There were some. For instance, we asked about the culture of harassment within the person's employment setting, and as I mentioned, these are settings all across the board, everything from the judiciary to academia, to law firms and associations, the government, et cetera.  What we found was that, at the very least ... We gave them choices. They could say it was often part of the culture. In other words, it was just ubiquitous. Or they could say it was part of the culture, so it was within certain departments, or groups, or whatever. Or they could say it was rare, rarely manifested itself.  So, 30 years ago, we found that the respondents said 51% of these incidents were often, often part of the culture, 38% just various departments, and only 10% was it rare. Now, we've found, and these will be easier to see when the people read the report, 25% was often. So, it went from 51% to 25% was often.  Rio Peterson:  Wow.  Cory Amron:  So, that actually shows that there is change, and that the change is for the better. However, they also said that 48% part of the culture. So, if you add often and part together, you find what you see is that 30 years ago, 89% of these cultures had either often or in some places in the employment setting, whereas now, it's 73%, right?  Rio Peterson:  Yeah.  Cory Amron:  So, it's better, but it's obviously not right. So, that's one of the more positive aspects. Another positive aspect we saw was that, we asked about, in one place, who was doing the harassing. We found that a lot less now from professors in law school and a lot less now from judges in court. However, partners-  Corrine Parver:  And there's always a however.  Rio Peterson:  There's always a however, yeah.  Cory Amron:  However, partners and supervisors still kind of similar statistics from 30 years ago, and now, there's maybe somewhat more from clients.  Corrine Parver:  Another positive finding was that, in comparison over the 30-year span that we asked about, is that there were fewer sexual assaults and rapes nowadays than occurred in the past, although I think what we saw an increase in was a lot of verbal comments, name-calling such as the like. So, there was a plus on one side, but then again, the bubble expanded in another area where there is more name-calling and appearance criticisms, et cetera.  Cory Amron:  So, some of the negative results that we found were, as we mentioned, it's still insidious, and we called it insidious and alarming, the incidents. We'll talk about some of these things later, but the barriers to reporting were absolutely identical today as they were 30 years ago, things like, they didn't think they would be believed, or they thought they'd be retaliated against, nothing was going to happen, et cetera.  The price to the people who were harassed, and by the way, most of these people are women, not all of them, but most of them, was just devastating, and long-lasting. I mean, there was one quote where, "Even though this happened once while I was a law student over 30 years ago, it still haunts me."  So, the consequences to the people who are harassed, long-lasting anxiety in the workplace, fear of retaliation, loss of productivity, loss of confidence, and in the entire workplace, you find loss of productivity, anxiety, et cetera, things like that. So, the consequences to the workplace, even if it's not just the people who are harassed, is consequential, and in fact so consequential that we made a determination, not statistically, but that the consequences to the people who were harassed was greater than the people who were doing the harassing.  Rio Peterson:  Right. Right, and unfortunately, that sounds ... Yeah. That sounds not surprising.  Cory Amron:  Yeah, unfortunately.  Corrine Parver:  Another major finding that was a little bit surprising to us was that people at every level of the profession have experienced harassment of one form or another. Professors, judges have responded to us that in their capacity at really the highest levels of the profession still have experienced that kind of harassment.  Cory Amron:  Partners, general counsel.  Rio Peterson:  Yes. I think that was something that really disappointed and surprised me deeply. You would think that, once you reach a certain level in your career, you maybe garner enough respect that that type of behavior is curbed in others, but that doesn't seem to be the case, and I definitely found that to be very surprising and discouraging, in a lot of ways. I mean, you work really, really hard to get to where you are, and you still have to [inaudible 00:25:49] that same sort of nonsense, it's very disappointing. Yeah.  Cory Amron:  Yeah. I think we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that, at least the way that we look at this, that sexual harassment is not a sexual thing. It's a control thing. And so people find ways to control other people, whether those people are partners or associates, or supervisors, or general counsel, whatever. This is a tool that some people use to control others. So yes, it's somewhat surprising, but maybe not so if you look at it through that lens.  Rio Peterson:  Right. Absolutely. That's an excellent, excellent way to think about it. Was there any other findings that you both found surprising?  Corrine Parver:  I think the numbers that we were able to calculate on the issue of reporting sexual harassment, that was a bit surprising, that the vast majority of people don't report. Either they don't have the right circumstances in their place of employment for them to report an incident. For example, if there is someone working in a small law firm, and there is on HR department, or even if there is, it could be the spouse of one of the senior partners, or the named partner of the small firm. How do you go about doing the reporting in that circumstance? So, the numbers were really quite staggering, as far as many people not reporting incidents.  Cory Amron:  It was something like 86% currently are not reported.  Rio Peterson:  Wow.  Cory Amron:  Mm-hmm.  Rio Peterson:  Wow. That's a very large number. So, I know that the goal of this study is not only to understand these experiences, but also to take these findings and use them to impact some kind of positive change in the legal professional. So, I'm curious to know, thinking about all these points that we've just touched on, what were some of the recommendations that came about as a result of the survey?  Cory Amron:  Yeah, go ahead.  Corrine Parver:  No, go ahead.  Cory Amron:  No, you. No, you.  Corrine Parver:  There's so much that we want to say, we want to make sure we get it all in.  Cory Amron:  Right, right, right. Well, I just want to mention three, three recommendations. There were a lot of recommendations, and Corrine, please pick up after I finish. The three that I want to mention are the reporting, because of just the terrible statistics, something we call transparency, and also individual accountability.  So, the reporting, you can have the greatest policies, and training, and all that in the world, but if people don't feel comfortable reporting, and of course all the barriers that we just mentioned, then you're not going to hear about it. You're not going to be able to fix it. So, you need not only better reporting mechanisms, you need multiple reporting mechanisms, and you need support for reporting. That somewhat goes to the culture, so that has to come from the top down. I've heard male general counsels say that if you put better reporting mechanisms into place and your reporting goes up, you're actually doing a good job, because now, you're finding out about things that were happening that you did not know about before because there were too many barriers. So, reporting.  The second thing is transparency, and what that means is what the workplace knows. Oftentimes, in the statistics that we found from the survey, we found that even in the 14% of incidences that were reported, 50% of those, there was absolutely no consequence, and another 20%, the person who'd been harassed was never told what the consequences were.  So, knowing what happens and what steps the employer took is key, I think, in first of all creating a culture of A, reporting, and B, a lot less sexual harassment, but it also, everybody knows that it happened. I mean, if the employer thinks that this is under wraps and, "I'm doing my privacy thing by not telling anybody what we did," which employers do say, "Oh, privacy, and we can't tell anybody," everybody knows what has happened, and everybody needs to know that something was done about it. And it doesn't always have to be the person was fired, okay?  Which gets to individual accountability. In the most egregious cases, the person actually is let go, and if it's a law firm, sometimes what happens is they just go across the street with their clients, leaving the firm to clean up the mess, because now, there is not only somebody who's been harassed, but now, you have ... and particularly because a lot of these people are rainmakers, so you're leaving behind a lot of people who now have no work to do. And in the worst possible case, people are suing employer, and the employer now has to come up with funds to settle these lawsuits. Sometimes, the individual goes off Scott free.  So, there needs to be individual accountability. We've been looking and talking to a lot of people about the ethics requirements and disciplinary requirements, and that's okay, as far as it goes, but there has to be a lot more thought given to how to make sure that the individual is accountable for what they've done.  Corrine Parver:  So, the consequences really aren't just for the individual who was harassed, but to the location of the employment, the place of employment, whether it's even government, or a small firm, or a large firm. The business imperative exists for companies to act properly in informing the employees or partners, but the people in the workplace what has occurred, because the gossip will permeate the institution. People will know, as Cory mentioned, and so the consequences financially and otherwise are of concern.  Cory Amron:  But there are also a lot of positive things that employers can do to get ahead of the situation before it gets to that point. So, positive reinforcement for mentoring and for let's say 360 reviews to try to figure out what's going on, to putting in place conversations about what is appropriate, what is not appropriate in this particular organization. I know of general counsels who go, and magic partners, who go around to all of their offices to lead by example and talk about what the culture of the place is. So, positive reinforcement, not just always negative consequences.  Corrine Parver:  Two important recommendations that really laid the foundation for the next initiative that came out through the publication of the report and the survey findings, is that we need to come up with a creative way in order to make a shift in the landscape. Not that the teachings and videos for example that companies use to inform their employees about the latest EEOC regs or what has happened from the Supreme Court in cases, what the obligations are, the dos and don'ts, focusing mainly on the don'ts, the recommendations to engage in conversations with primarily, at least initially, with men, to involve men and to have men become active allies for their female colleagues. Out of those recommendations came our Conversations With Men initiative.  Rio Peterson:  Yes. Yes, absolutely, which is I thought just so creative. So, why don't we just, yeah, let's dive into it. Would you like to tell us a bit about it? The initiative is Conversations With Men, and so what does that look like?  Corrine Parver:  A good segue into it.  Rio Peterson:  Segue.  Corrine Parver:  Which is still going. The power of male allyship is, we deem to be, quite significant and crucial, and a lot of the work that's being done in the legal profession on these issues has been done by women, primarily. You'll have a lot of women's initiatives in law firms, women in charge of mentoring and education that really has nothing to do with the practice of law but working in legal employment settings. So, that has been something that we wanted to make sure that we were able to develop an initiative that would address those issues.  Cory Amron:  Yeah, and we did a lot of research just looking at who was doing what and what exactly were they doing in the male allyship space. We talked to some of the experts, people who've written books on the topic, and we convened some thought leaders to talk to us about what we might be able to do.  We also convened what we called an expert taskforce. We had people on that taskforce like Chai Feldblum, who was an EEOC commissioner. She was the author of the seminal work on sexual harassment in the workplace for the EEOC. Corrine mentioned that our Still Broken survey was spearheaded by Dr. Arin Reeves. We got her also to help us structure these conversations, because we wanted them to be open and honest with prompts and very thoughtful information.  But we also decided, with the help of that expert task force, that the facilitator should be ... We knew the facilitator was going to be a professional, but we decided that it was going to be a male. We thought that was important because we wanted no barrier to honest conversation. If they wanted to talk about their locker rooms, go for it, okay?  But we couldn't find a male facilitator that had this expertise. I mean, there's just a tiny handful of these people. So, we paired up a professional facilitator, who was actually a clinical law professor at Harvard of facilitation and mediation, we paired him up with Dr. Reeves, and together with Women Lawyers on Guard, we structured the sessions.  Rio Peterson:  Right. Let's talk a little bit more about those sessions. What did the mechanics of those meetings look like? I know this is still, this project is ongoing. So, how did it start? What was the first couple sessions like?  Corrine Parver:  Well, we decided that we would ask our network of women lawyers to nominate men to participate in the focus groups. We sent letters to ... Once we had the information about the men they were going to nominate, we realized quickly that everybody was very enthusiastic and accepted the invitation almost instantly.  Rio Peterson:  It's what you planned, right? [inaudible 00:39:46].  Corrine Parver:  Right. So, we convened focus groups of 10 men, and each of the focus groups met twice. They had an initial meeting with the facilitator. We also had a male note-taker who was introduced at the start of the session and then sort of was blank space afterwards, so that we were able to get notes from each of the sessions.  Cory Amron:  Anonymous, by the way.  Rio Peterson:  Right.  Corrine Parver:  The people did not know each other, who were in the groups. We made sure that the groups were diverse in every respect you could think, area of the country, legal place of employment, seniority, and the like.  Cory Amron:  Race, ethnicity.  Corrine Parver:  Ethnicity. Yeah. We tried to over every-  Cory Amron:  We had gay guys. We had a disabled person. Yeah.  Corrine Parver:  We had professors. We had judges, partners in law firms, general counsel of corporations. So, we had 50 people in the five focus groups. They met twice officially, and the facilitator had a curriculum and encouraged ... Really, it wasn't a lecture type of curriculum. It wasn't professorial. It was a true conversations that were structured over issues of sexual harassment.  Rio Peterson:  Right, and so for the first session, they would have a discussion and talk about things, and then what happened in the second session?  Cory Amron:  Well, first of all, before they got to the first session, they were told that they should read Still Broken.  Rio Peterson:  Got it.  Cory Amron:  We gave them a bunch of resources to look at, but Still Broken was at the top of the list. So, the conversation centered around what was happening and what they had read, what they had experienced, the types of prompts that was structuring the discussion. By and large, these were guys who obviously had ... well, had been nominated, right? So, they wanted to be there. By and large, they were shocked and credulous. They were just like, "Wow, really?" Because again, they were the ones that really weren't seeing it, for the most part. There were some that were working in their places of employment on these issues, but for the most part, these were people who were not seeing it.  So, in between the first and the second session, they were asked to talk to women in their lives, their relatives, their colleagues at work, their neighbors, whatever, just to ask them, "Just talk to me about sexual harassment." Not were you sexually harassed, but just talk to me.  To a person, when they came back into the second session, they were blown away. Absolutely blown away. They had no idea that their wife, let's say, this was the way she comported herself, or this is what the experiences that she has seen, or just that part of their life, their lived life. So, they were extremely, very, very impacted by this.  Rio Peterson:  Right. So, you mentioned that initially, this was two sessions, but that these conversations are still continuing today. Can you tell me a little bit about that?  Corrine Parver:  Well, we had provided the men with some active ally actions that they could take once the two sessions, two conversations were complete, and it was an extensive list of things that they could do. About a dozen or so of the 50 men decided that they wanted to continue the conversations with the facilitator, and they've been meeting now how long, Cory? Over a year.  Cory Amron:  Over a year and a half.  Corrine Parver:  Yeah, with a facilitator.  Cory Amron:  Every month.  Corrine Parver:  Once a month, every month. We are now seriously trying to plan the next cohort of 50 men.  Rio Peterson:  Yeah. Did it surprise you that they wanted to continue the conversation?  Corrine Parver:  Yeah.  Rio Peterson:  Yes?  Corrine Parver:  Yeah. Yeah. We were constantly getting feedback, whether through the notes from the note-taker or from our conversations with the facilitator, which we held religiously. Some of the discussions also entered into the area of gender discrimination and the role of women in the legal profession, which was fine with us, if the conversations expanded to include that type of discussion. The facilitator always brought the focus back into what are the active ally actions were they engaging it, et cetera? So, they didn't veer too far off of the topic, but they obviously were seeing changes that they were able to impart within their places of employment, and they were just enjoying the comradery that was developed and, "This is what happened to me and my firm," type of discussions.  Rio Peterson:  Right.  Cory Amron:  One thing that I also appreciated and would not have otherwise appreciated was how they talked about the nuances of what maybe ... Like if you were a bystander, and you saw this happening, they brought a lot of that into these discussions and talked over, "Oh, what should I have done?" Or, "What did I do, and was that the right thing to do?"  Talking about these nuances, I think made them realize that you know, not every situation is the same, and you just don't have one script that you can work off of in every single situation. So, I thought that was fascinating, that they came to that realization and were very, very attuned to not necessarily what they wanted to do, but what the person that was being harassed, I hesitate to say needed, but from that person's perspective, what might the bystander do?  Rio Peterson:  Yeah, what could be helpful or useful in the moment.  Cory Amron:  Yes. Right.  Corrine Parver:  Which is what led us to develop a Bystander Intervention Toolkit, which we're in the process of finalizing.  Rio Peterson:  Oh, fantastic. I think that's such an important way to help people frame a situation, is perhaps not so much think about yourself in that moment, but how can I be of service? How can I be helpful? And also, the importance of recognizing it's a dynamic issue. There is not a one-size-fits-all solution for every situation, and that's a really powerful tool. I mean, it sounds like it's inspired some pretty tangible, positive change, really, at the end of the day.  Corrine Parver:  Right.  Rio Peterson:  I'm curious to know, how does that make you both feel? Do you feel accomplished and fantastic about that? Because you should. It's pretty amazing.  Corrine Parver:  Thank you. I think the bystander toolkit will really be of help, particularly when these occurrences take place in a group setting. One of the things, the surprising things also that we discovered was that it's not just in a single office with one-on-one interactions. It could happen, and does happen, in group settings.  So, if you're a fella, and there's five guys around and one woman, and someone makes an untoward comment, how should you react? What are the things that you could say or do in the moment to diffuse a situation or, "We don't talk like that around here," or things like that, you know? "That's very surprising you should make a comment like that," and the like.  Cory Amron:  And actually, sometimes they are coming to the realization that the person who's being harassed has it under control and that it's best not to be the knight in shining armor zapping in or whatever, being patronized or whatever. So, that's also an important perspective, trying to discern the difference between those situations. It's hard.  Rio Peterson:  Right, trying to navigate the nuances.  Cory Amron:  Mm-hmm.  Rio Peterson:  Certainly not a map we're all just born with, so it's very, very important. Oh, that's fantastic. So, we've got the bystander toolkit coming up, where you're working on facilitating a second round of conversations with men. What else is next? Is there more on the horizon for Women Lawyers on Guard?  Cory Amron:  Go for it.  Corrine Parver:  Well, I don't know that we can talk too much without getting our board approval on that.  Rio Peterson:  So yes, but to be coming soon.  Corrine Parver:  But I think in the other areas that we're working on, the reproductive healthcare rights, is a never-ending avenue for us to give our assistance. There's been so many court cases that have altered the landscape, and so that is something that's taking up a fair amount of our time right now, as well.  Rio Peterson:  Right. Absolutely. It's a massive mountain to scale, that one. Yeah. Well, this is fantastic. I know we've got just a couple more minutes left. I would love for you to tell us how people can get involved with Women Lawyers on Guard. Where can they find you? How can they lend their support?  Corrine Parver:  That's a wonderful question to end with.  Cory Amron:  Well first, if there's anybody who would like to nominate a guy for our upcoming sessions, we would love to hear from them. My email address is C Amron, so camron, C-A-M-R-O-N @womenlawyersonguard.org. So, we'd really love to hear your nominations.  Corrine Parver:  And we'd love to have you join us. There is no fee to join Women Lawyers on Guard. The website is www.womenlawyersonguard.org, where you can see all the reports of the work that we've accomplished thus far and also take a look at some of the amicus briefs that we've participated in. That's all online. We would love to have your listeners join our mighty band.  Rio Peterson:  And we would love for them to do that, as well, and we'll make sure to put the website and your email, Cory, in the show notes so that if anybody would like to get in touch, they have an easy way to do that, and definitely nominate someone to participate in more Conversations With Men. That'd be fantastic. Well, thank you both so much. This has been really incredible. It's really incredible work that you're both doing, and I'm very happy we got to discuss it today.  Cory Amron:  Well, thank you.  Corrine Parver:  Thank you. We really appreciate you inviting us.  Cory Amron:  Yes, and ALPS has been a stalwart supporter of ours, so we're very appreciative about that.  Rio Peterson:  Oh, wonderful. Well, hopefully once you have the toolkit out and the next round of Conversations With Men, we can do this again, keep the conversation going.  Cory Amron:  Sounds good.  Corrine Parver:  That's a date. Thank you.  Rio Peterson:  Wonderful. All right. Thank you so much, everyone, and this has been episode 83 of In Brief, and we will see you next time. There we go. We're done.  Corrine Parver:  Yay.  Rio Peterson:  Wonderful. Oh, thank you both so much. That was fantastic.  Corrine Parver:  I'm glad that you found it worthwhile. Good.  Rio Peterson:  Yeah, absolutely.  Cory Amron:  Yeah. Thank you for your enthusiasm. It wasn't just like, "Oh, let's see, what's the next question?"  Rio Peterson:  Well, it's definitely something I feel is very important, and it hits close to home in a lot of ways. I'm just so blown away just reading through Still Broken and the Conversations With Men. It's just such a fascinating approach, too. The way you've tackled this issue, it's really inspiring. I've really, really enjoyed digging into your work and getting to talk with you both about this.  Corrine Parver:  Thank you.  Cory Amron:  Thank you, especially because there have been some who have looked at the construct that we're trying to bring forth, which is active male allies, and said that they can't ... not that they can't support the initiative, but they can't use their DEI dollars for it because it doesn't either A, they can't see the obvious impact on women, or B, they can't spend money on something that is just male-oriented. I'm like, "But you don't see the tunnel."  Corrine Parver:  Yeah, very frustrating.  Cory Amron:  Yeah, it is. It's very frustrating.  Rio Peterson:  There's a very larger picture you're not seeing there.  Cory Amron:  Yeah.  Corrine Parver:  And for us, the funding issue becomes an issue. It's very important that we can be able to garner sufficient funds to keep these programs going, because we don't have a fee to belong to the organization. So, like what ALPS has given us in contributions has been very important.  Rio Peterson:  All right. Well, hopefully we can keep that going, keep that support coming.  Cory Amron:  Thank you so, so much.  Corrine Parver:  Thank you.  Rio Peterson:  Absolutely.  Cory Amron:  Great to see you.  Rio Peterson:  Great to see you both. So, I will let you know when the episode publishes and we can tag you in the social posts, and get the word out there. Yeah.  Cory Amron:  Great. Great.  Corrine Parver:  Thank you.  Cory Amron:  Great. Thank you.  Rio Peterson:  Thank you both so much. I hope you guys have a great day.  Cory Amron:  Thanks. You, too.  Corrine Parver:  Bye.  Rio Peterson:  Bye-bye. 

Recognizing that we cannot achieve gender equality without also advancing racial equality, host Marianne Schnall has devoted this episode to looking at the intersection of gender and race and exploring how we can move the needle on both. Beginning with archival wisdom from her interviews with Black women thought leaders —Anita Hill, Maya Angelou, Congresswoman Barbara Lee, and others—who offer their perspectives on both anti-Black racism specifically, as well as equality for all marginalized communities, Schnall then shares her conversation with esteemed civil rights activist and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw who discusses two key terms she coined, “intersectionality” (14:10) and Critical Race Theory (18:14), the importance of uplifting Black women's stories (25:50), her calls to action for creating a more equal world (28:30), and much more. For more information about Marianne Schnall, please visit MarianneSchnall.com  For more information about Kimberlé Crenshaw and her work, visit aapf.org For more information about Tandem please visit tandemequality.org Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The recent ruling by New York's highest court to overturn Harvey Weinstein's 2020 rape conviction has sent a wave of shock and disappointment through advocates of the #MeToo movement. Weinstein remains jailed for a rape conviction in Los Angeles, but the New York ruling still raises questions about justice for sexual assault survivors. Amna Nawaz discussed those concerns with Anita Hill. PBS NewsHour is supported by - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/about/funders

[This episode originally aired June 2021]. Get to know Anita Hill, professor and lawyer. She read us the story of civil rights icon Rosa Parks. Anita tells us what Mrs. Parks' story means to her, and what we can learn from her about the role of law in making the world a more fair and just place. Credits This podcast is a production of Rebel Girls and is based on the book series Good Night Stories for Rebel Girls. This episode was produced by Isaac Kaplan-Woolner. Sound design and mixing by Camille Stennis. This episode was written by Alexis Stratton and proofread by Simi Kadirgamar. Executive Producer is Katie Sprenger. A big thanks to the whole Rebel Girls team who make this show possible! Original theme music was composed and performed by Elettra Bargiacchi. For more, visit www.rebelgirls.com. Until next time, stay REBEL!

[This episode originally aired June 2021.] In December 1955, Mrs. Rosa Parks made history by standing up to unjust segregation laws in Montgomery, Alabama, when she refused to give up her seat on a bus to a white man—a courageous act that helped launch the now-famous Montgomery bus boycott. In the years that followed, Parks was often characterized as a seamstress who was simply tired after a long day. However, Parks wasn't tired from work—she was tired of being mistreated! While Parks is best known for that brave act of resistance, her activism spanned decades—and she continues to be a role model for rebel girls throughout the world today.    About the Narrator Anita Hill grew up on a farm in Oklahoma, the youngest of 13 children. She graduated from Oklahoma State University and received her J.D. from Yale Law School. Starting her career in Washington, D.C., Hill worked in private practice as well as at the Education Department and Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. In 1989, Hill, was the first African American tenured at the University of Oklahoma, College of Law. Currently, she teaches courses on gender, race, policy and law at Brandeis University and serves as counsel to the law firm of Cohen, Milstein, Sellers and Toll, where she advises on class action discrimination cases. Professor Hill leads the Hollywood Commission working with entertainment industry companies and unions to eradicate harassment, discrimination and power abuse. She serves on the boards of several non-profit organizations and has authored a variety of publications, offered television and radio commentary, and presented to hundreds of audiences around the globe Credits This podcast is a production of Rebel Girls and is based on the book series Good Night Stories for Rebel Girls. This episode was produced by Isaac Kaplan-Woolner. Sound design and mixing by Camille Stennis. This episode was written by Alexis Stratton and proofread by Simi Kadirgamar. Executive Producer is Katie Sprenger. A big thanks to the whole Rebel Girls team who make this show possible! Original theme music was composed and performed by Elettra Bargiacchi. For more, visit www.rebelgirls.com. Until next time, stay REBEL!

Jessica Bennett has spent a prolific, award-winning career writing and reporting about gender, sexuality, politics, and culture, including as the first-ever Gender Editor for The New York Times, and now as a contributing writer & editor. She has profiled - and shaped our collective understanding of - numerous public figures including Jennifer Aniston, Pamela Anderson, Monica Lewinsky, E. Jean Carroll, Governor Kathy Hochul and Anita Hill. Jessica's book, "Feminist Fight Club," offered solutions for fighting workplace inequality and gender bias, and her current podcast, "In Retrospect," with co-host Susie Banikarim, looks back on cultural moments from the past few decades and rethinks our collective - and often extremely dated - response. It's all giving her a lot to think about right now as she ponders what's next in a decimated media environment as it seems like, yet again, everything is changing. In this episode of "Your New Life Blend," host Shoshanna Hecht sits down with Jessica to discuss our shifting attitudes as a society (and as an ambitious, high- achieving women), how to carve out your own job description, and above all, how to roll with an ever-changing world when sometimes what you really want is a nap.Website:https://www.jessicabennett.comBooks:Feminist Fight Club: A Survival Manual for a Sexist Workplace This Is 18: Girls' Lives Through Girls' Eyeshttps://www.jessicabennett.com/booksNew York Times stories:https://www.nytimes.com/by/jessica-bennettPodcast:In Retrospect with Susie Banikarim and Jessica Bennetthttps://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-in-retrospect-with-susie-122206786/Social Media: https://www.instagram.com/jessicabennetthttps://www.linkedin.com/in/jess7bennetthttps://twitter.com/jessicabennett

词汇提示1.awry 错误的2.backlash 反对3.tassels 流苏4.menstruate 来月经原文Naomi Wolf : 'A Woman's Place' (1)Even the best of revolutions can go awry when we internalize the attitudes we are fighting.The class of 1992 is graduating into a violent backlash against the advances women have made over the last 20 years.This backlash ranges from a Senator using "The Exorcist" against Anita Hill, to beer commercials with the "Swedish bikini team."Today I want to give you a backlash survival kit, a four-step manual to keep the dragons from taking up residence inside your own heads.My own commencement, at Yale, eight years ago, was the Graduation from Hell.The speaker was Dick Cavett, rumored to have been our president's"brother" in an all-male secret society.Mr. Cavett took the microphone and paled at the sight of hundreds of female about-to-be- Yale graduates."When I was a graduate," I recall he said, "There were no women.The women went to Vassar.At Vassar, they had nude photographs taken of the women in gym class to check their posture.One year the photos were stolen, and turned up for sale in New Haven's red-light district.His punch line, "The photos found no buyers."I'll never forget that moment.There we were, silent in our black gowns, our tassels, our brand new shoes.We dared not break the silence with hisses or boos,out of respect for our families, who'd come so far; and they kept still out of concern for us.Consciously or not, Mr. Cavett was using the beauty myth aspect of the backlash: when women come too close to masculine power, someone will draw critical attention to their bodies.We might be Elis, but we still wouldn't make pornography worth buying.That afternoon, several hundred men were confirmed in the power of a powerful institution.But many of the women felt the shame of the powerless: the choking on silence, the complicity, the helplessness.We were orphaned from the institution.I want to give you the commencement talk that was denied to me.Message No. 1 in your survival kit: redefine "becoming a woman."Today you have "become women."But that sounds odd in ordinary usage.What is usually meant by "You're a real woman [sic] now? "You"become a woman" when you menstruate for the first time, or when you lose your virginity, or when you have a child.These biological definitions are very different from how we say boys become men.One"becomes a man" when he undertakes responsibility, or completes a quest.But you, too, in some ways more than your male friends graduating today, have moved into maturity through a solitary quest for the adult self.翻译娜奥米·沃尔夫:《女人的位置》(1)即使是最好的革命，当我们内化了我们所对抗的态度时，也会出错。1992届毕业生将在一场针对女性在过去20年里取得的进步的暴力反弹中毕业。从一位参议员用《驱魔人》来攻击安妮塔·希尔，到“瑞典比基尼队”的啤酒广告，都出现了这种反弹。今天我想给你们一个反击生存工具包，一个四步手册来防止龙在你自己的头脑中居住。八年前，我自己在耶鲁大学的毕业典礼是“来自地狱的毕业典礼”。演讲者是迪克·卡维特，据传他是我们总统在一个全是男性的秘密社团里的“兄弟”。卡维特先生接过麦克风，面对数百名即将毕业的耶鲁女学生，他的脸色变得苍白。“当我毕业的时候，”我记得他说，“没有女人。女人们去了瓦萨学院。在瓦萨学院，他们给体育课上的女性拍了裸照，以检查她们的姿势。有一年，这些照片被盗，并在纽黑文的红灯区被出售。他的妙语是:“照片没有找到买家。”我永远不会忘记那一刻。我们静静地站在那里，穿着黑色长袍，戴着流苏，穿着崭新的鞋子。出于对远道而来的家人的尊重，我们不敢用嘘声或嘘声打破沉默;他们不作声，是出于对我们的关心。不管有意无意，卡维特都是在利用这种反对的美丽神话方面:当女性过于接近男性权力时，有人会把批评的注意力吸引到她们的身体上。我们可能是Elis，但我们仍然不会让色情作品值得购买。那天下午，几百人在一个强大的机构的权力下得到确认。但是，许多妇女感到无能为力的耻辱:沉默、同谋和无助。我们是孤儿院的孤儿。我想给你们在毕业典礼上的演讲，我被拒绝了。你生存工具箱里的第一条信息:重新定义“成为一个女人”。今天，你们已经“成为女人”了。但这在日常用法中听起来很奇怪。“你现在是个真正的女人了”通常是什么意思?当你第一次来月经时，或者当你失去贞操时，或者当你有了孩子时，你就“成为了一个女人”。这些生物学上的定义与我们所说的男孩变成男人的方式非常不同。当一个人承担责任或完成任务时，他就“成为了一个人”。但是，在某些方面，你们也比你们今天毕业的男性朋友们更加成熟，你们是通过对成人自我的孤独追求而走向成熟的。

The South London singer-songwriter Raye joins Emma Barnett following her record breaking six wins at the Brit awards this weekend. Raye tells us about her grandma Agatha who joined her on stage after winning Best Album for My 21st Century Blues. She also talks about being a woman in the music industry and the strength she has found from fellow female musician Charli XCX.The English channel has always held an allure for endurance swimmers the world over, but the first British woman to complete it was Mercedes Gleitze. She achieved this feat in 1927 and a new film, Vindication Swim, recreates that moment in history. Kirsten Callaghan plays Mercedes, she joins Emma along with the current channel swimmer Sarah Philpott to explain what it's like to spend that long in open water, and what drives women to do it.It's the Oscars this weekend, the first ceremony since the Academy introduced new diversity rules for all candidates. But almost seven years since the start of the Me Too movement - has Hollywood really become a safer place for the women who work there? According to the latest survey by the Hollywood Commission, which was set up in 2017 to help stop workplace harassment and discrimination in the entertainment industry, there's still a lot of work to do. Emma speaks to the chair of the Hollywood Commission, the activist, academic and author Anita Hill.If you had 20 minutes with the Prime Minister what would you use your time to ask? Grazia magazine, ahead of International Women's Day this week, chose to focus on the personal and the domestic in a series of three videos which have had a lot of reaction online. Lindsay Nicholson, writer and former editor of various women's magazines including Good Housekeeping and Cosmopolitan, joins Emma to discuss.Children with a disability, or limited mobility, often need some type of adjustment to garments so they can wear them. It's known as adaptive clothing and whilst there are a growing number of brands offering this, they're not widely available on the high street. My next guests are trying to raise awareness of this with a fashion show. Andrea Jester is a leading hand and upper limb plastic surgeon at Birmingham Children's Hospital, and Carmen Burkett is a fashion lecturer at South and City College in Birmingham. They've teamed up to put Andrea's young patients - or models as they've become - in touch with student designers.

Ibram X. Kendi is a National Book Award-winning and #1 New York Times bestselling author who has dedicated his life to educating all Americans, from grade school to adults, on the unvarnished history of the United States. His latest release, Barracoon: Adapted for Young Readers, is a middle-grade offering for the critically acclaimed Barracoon: The Story of the Last “Black Cargo,” written by the legendary writer, anthropologist and folklorist, Zora Neale Hurston. The book tells the story of Cudjo Lewis, one of the last-known survivors of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade who shared his story with Hurston in 1927. Kendi tells I SEE U that it's more important than ever for young people to understand slavery and its origins, particularly when book bans targeting writers of color are on the rise. Join us as I SEE U travels to the downtown Houston Public Library where host Eddie Robinson chats unguarded with one of the most sought-after historians in the country, Ibram X. Kendi. The author of the award-winning Stamped From the Beginning — now a Netflix documentary — chronicles the creation of racist ideas and myths which were used to codify discriminatory policies that have affected inequalities in everything from health to wealth in America.

(Season 8 is in partnership with ⁠ADCOLOR⁠. ADCOLOR champions diversity and inclusion in creative industries) Shawn Finnie is an entertainment executive with over a decade of experience and most recently served as the Executive Vice President, Member Relations and Awards to the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences. He oversaw member relations, and global outreach for the organization's global membership of more than 10,000+ artists, filmmakers and executives as well as overseeing Academy Awards processes for submissions, rules, and voting. He has created, hosted, and co-produced various pieces of award winning content for the organization such as “Academy Dialogues: It Starts with Us”. Focused on race, ethnicity, gender, history, opportunity, and the art of filmmaking, these discussions featured high-profile figures such as Bryan Stevenson, Whoopi Goldberg, Lee Daniels, Lulu Wang, Eva Longoria, Roger Ross Williams, Delroy Lindo, Anita Hill, Geena Davis, and Ava DuVernay. In addition, he co-produced additional digital content series such as: Academy Greenroom, Academy Panels and Oscar nominee content. Finnie launched Academy Affinity groups. This member led, staff supported group(s) were created exclusively for members to amplify the voices in the following communities: Black, Indigenous x Native American, Middle Eastern, West Asia North African, LGBTQIA+, Asian, Latinx, and AccessAbility. The focus of the groups is centered around community, advocacy, empowerment and education with the intention to create equity for all voices to impact systemic change. Finnie's focus is Community, Culture, and Connectivity. He is signed to United Talent Agency as a speaker and has collaborated with multiple organizations, communities, and leaders to speak and share personal experiences and initiate action-oriented conversations surrounding mental health, personal journey, and dealing with adversity. He is committed to ensuring that solid representation of diverse voices and backgrounds are included, engaged, and activated.

Marie Griffith, PhD, John C. Danforth Distinguished Professor in the Humanities at Washington University in St. Louis. She served for 12 years (2011-2023) as the director of the John C. Danforth Center on Religion and Politics and the editor of the Center's journal, Religion & Politics. Her research focuses on American Christianity, including the changing profile of American evangelicals and ongoing conflicts over gender, sexuality, and marriage. Author of several books, including Moral Combat: How Sex Divided America and Fractured American Politics, the book discussed in this episode. Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you're enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/supportTo get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.comFollow on Instagram @uncertainpodcastTranscript is unedited for typos or misspellings[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain. Hello. How are you? How are you hanging in there? I hope you're doing okay. I'm doing semi okay. It's been a lot inundation with this very real, very damaging type of abuse. One thing that you may or may not know is folks who have experienced spiritual abuse and folks who have experienced sexual abuse.They're very similar to each other. Spiritual abuse and sexual abuse are very, very similar. The impact is very, very similar because it is so, so vulnerable. You are so vulnerable when this happens and it violates our intimacy and it violates our very souls in a way that maybe other abuse doesn't. So if you are traumatized.By the abuse that you experienced in a church [00:01:00] or a high control environment or religious environments in your family. There's a reason for that. It makes a lot of sense. It's very, very serious trauma. So one of the things that we discussed in this episode is how the folks who. experience sexual abuse when they go to the religious institution where they experience that abuse and say, Hey, help me, this happened, this was awful, please help me.When they get dismissed or falsely accused or sidelined or silenced, that that is sometimes worse than the sexual abuse that they experienced in that institution. This episode is with Marie Griffith. She is the author of Moral Combat, How Sex Divided America and Fractured American Politics. It's an intense book.A lot of research went into this book. She's also a scholar [00:02:00] and a professor of religion at Washington University. And one of the things we will also discuss in this episode is how she literally taught a class on abuse in the church in a secular university. What? Crazy, crazy, crazy. Great conversation, lots of mind blowing moments about the connection between sex and sexual abuse and the rampant abuse that is happening in the evangelical church right now.Enjoy, or don't enjoy, but take it in for sure. And as always, take care of yourself, get some rest, give yourself some time after this episode to go for a walk, take a sip of water, breathe. You're okay, wherever you are, you are okay, take a deep breath, you are safe, you are here, you are now, you are present, you're going to be okay.[00:03:00] Here is my interview with Marie Griffith. Katherine: Hi, Catherine. Oh, how are you? How are you? And I have your big book here. This was a lot of work. She took this.Marie: And that was like I don't even want to tell you how many years. I mean, it was really sort of 15 years. I did other things as I was doing that, Katherine: but yeah. Yeah, just like the amount of research that went into just like one chapter I was like, this was a very large endeavor. But how are you this morning? How are you doing? How is your writing? Is it like a writing sabbatical? Is that kind of what this season is called?Marie: Yeah, I'm on, I'm on research leave. You know, it's just a standard leave that scholars get every few years. So but yeah, it's focused on working on this book about sexual clergy, sexual Katherine: abuse. Oh, my gosh. Did I know that? Did you tell me about that? I don't know if I knew from Marie: that [00:04:00] I had taught that course on the abuse crisis in modern Christianity.And so the reason I taught the course was because I started doing research on clergy sexual abuse in both the U. S. Catholic Church And evangelical groups, particularly the Southern Baptist Convention, although not only Katherine: the Southern. Okay. I don't know if I knew that the book itself was about clergy sexual abuse.So I definitely want to hear so much about that. Really excited to talk to you. I'm just like, as I'm like reading this book, I'm like, okay. We just need to be friends because I like everything that you research and everything that you're, I'm like, it's all like stuff that I'm like thinking about constantly.And then just like even reading your book. And then when Megan told me that she literally had a class on like abuse that is happening in the church, I was like. Wait, who, like, led this? Whose idea was it to have this class? Like, tell me, tell me so much more. And so that's why I was, like, very [00:05:00] interested to talk to you.And so I would just love to hear very just to start how you got into doing what you're doing and how this became important to you. Marie: Sure, sure. Yeah. And thank you so much. I really love your podcast and admire the work that you do too, Catherine. So thank you. Well, I am from Chattanooga, Tennessee originally.I was raised Southern Baptist. I grew up in the 1970s and 1980s. So as you may know, that was a time of just tremendous change in the culture, but also for Southern Baptists in particular, and within evangelical Protestantism more generally. The church I grew up in was a really, I thought of it as just a very kind of, you know, ordinary.Church, it was 1st Baptist Church Chattanooga, you know, the kind of flagship Southern Baptist Church of the city. But the, the kind of tensions in the Southern Baptist Convention. Between, [00:06:00] you know, for shorthand, let's say the fundamentalist and the moderates, because that's, you know, what they called each other, at least at the time was really strong.And my mother was the pastor's secretary over a number of years, and she cared deeply about these issues. My dad was the deacon chair for a number of years. So this was dinner table conversation. What was happening within the denomination and. My parents were both moderates. And so I kind of heard that side of it.And it was really painful. A lot of the pastors that I had that worked at our church felt very betrayed by things that happened, convention politics and all of that. And when I left for college, I thought I left it all behind. I mean, it was really painful enough that I just turned my back on a lot of that.But I found myself studying religion and really sort of wondering how all of that came to be. So in some ways, I mean, I think that has, explains a lot about my career, why I became a [00:07:00] scholar of American religion. I've focused on evangelicals. I focused on women. I focused on debates over women's roles, sexuality, and sex.And now clergy sexual abuse. So it really is. There's a personal story behind that, as I think it is for so many scholars. Katherine: Absolutely. And then have you been able to trace? So you're working on a book right now about clergy sexual abuse. And then your book that I was reading before we interviewed.Moral combat. The subtitle is how sex divided American Christians and fractured American politics. Have you been able to trace? The link from this divide to clergy sexual abuse, is that pretty, a pretty clear link for you? Marie: I think so. And, you know, I, critics may argue with me, and they have every right to argue with me, but what I see from the sources, the [00:08:00] long historical sources that I've looked at over many archives that really begin in the really the late 19th century, but certainly by the 1920s and the birth control movement has been a real power struggle within American Christianity, Catholicism as well as, as, as Protestantism, I should say over leadership, over theology, and maybe more than anything else over the appropriate role of women and, and how to think about gender, how God created men and women.and what their appropriate roles are supposed to be. I think we can see that debate starting with The birth control movement, really going back before that, but my book started with the birth control movement, moving through debates over literary censorship sex education in the public schools, homosexuality, same sex rights, abortion, reproductive rights, sort of all the way through.And so, you know, that's, that's an [00:09:00] oversimplification to some degree, but I do think that those wars over sex. over gender, over, over women and, and women's roles in the public sphere and in the family explain an awful lot of our conflicts culture wars conflicts as they are. And, and I do think that's what's led us to the current moment and the, the real fervor over clergy sexual abuse.Katherine: Yeah, and just all of it packaged together when you, and when you put sex sexual abuse itself, and you, and you realize that sexual abuse itself is really not about sex, it is about power, and you, and you see the power dynamic happening in these debates, and like, it's about who's going to get it. To be in charge, basically and, and then you add that in with this dynamic of sexual abuse happening and like less about just [00:10:00] urges that need to be fulfilled, but more about like who gets to be in charge and who gets to have a say and who gets to decide.It makes so much more sense through that lens than just like. Sex addiction which is what it sometimes gets boiled down to, but it's, but that's, it's way more than that one. It's something this rampant. And so I see the connection. And it's, it's, it's pretty, it's pretty clear to me. But I would love to hear So you taught a class and what was the class called?Can you confirm the name of Marie: that? Sure. Yeah. The class was called the abuse crisis in modern Christianity. Katherine: Okay. And what led you to teaching that class? And then what were, what were the, the, what was the process of getting that class to Marie: be taught? Yeah, yeah, no, and it's maybe my favorite class I've ever taught, so I just want to say that at the outset, which sounds strange [00:11:00] because it was also the most painful class I've ever taught, the most difficult class I've ever taught.You know, you all, this sort of Me Too, Church Too movement that's been so extraordinarily important over the last, seven or eight, 10 years, again, going longer than that, even, but really these this past decade. I have so many undergraduate students who have come to me with stories of sexual assault or sexual abuse, and I realize it's something that college students are grappling with.All the time. But there are, at least in the institutions where I've taught, there are almost no classes, you know, that address that it's it's sort of we're expecting our student life personnel and our R. A. S. And people who aren't even trained in some cases to kind of be the ones to manage. sex on campus or the sexual lives of our students.And so, and as I was doing the research on clergy sexual [00:12:00] abuse and just realizing how rampant some of this has long been and still is, it felt like something that I thought students would take a real interest in. So I taught the course, I put it on the books for fall of 2022. I limited it at first to 15 students and I immediately, when registration opened, it immediately filled up and I had.double that number of students on the wait list. And so I wound up with about30 students that, that were there off all undergrad, except for one graduate student. And that was, that was Megan. Katherine: And then and so you didn't have any trouble like hot, like saying, Hey, I want to offer this class. Was that something that you did you have any hurdles with the institution offering the class?Marie: Well, that's that's a very good question. You're the first person to ask me that. As it happened, I was at the time the director of the Danforth Center on Religion and Politics, which is our unit. And [00:13:00] so I was able to just offer the class and it really didn't go through any kind of Katherine: formal approach.I could do whatever I want. Marie: if I teach the course again, which I definitely plan on doing, it's possible that I would get some pushback. But the course really it was, it got very high course evaluations. I think the students were saying, these are conversations we all need to be having, and we're so thankful to be having it.So I think I would be able to make the argument that this is an important course Katherine: to keep on the books. Absolutely. And then you had, I know that Megan had mentioned I think like a former nun and like a former prosecutor that you had in. Was it more of a like a, a workshop style, lecture style, or was it more like you teaching and then you would occasionally have people come in?Marie: Yeah. Well, the course met twice a week for an hour and 20 minutes, and I did very little lecturing. I mean, I would set out the context, you know, for a short period [00:14:00] at the beginning. But as you say, I brought in a lot of experts. I brought in lawyer, a lawyer who has prosecuted these cases and worked a lot with sexual abuse survivors.I brought in Catholic survivors. I brought in a Catholic survivor who is now working for the Catholic church on prevention programs. You know, and has very much considers himself a devout Catholic still archivist, just a whole range of different types of people. We talked to journalists. I just wanted them to really see Things from a wide range of perspectives.I will say that when I started the course, most of my research until then had focused on the Catholic Church. So it was maybe overly focused on Catholicism. And I wish I had had time to do more. with evangelicals, with Mormons their orthodox Jewish cases and coverups of sexual abuse. Muslim communities in [00:15:00] the U.S. have grappled with this. So, you know, it's almost an overwhelming amount of material and WashU is a very multicultural, multi religious university. So, you know, I think covering these power dynamics, as you say, this is not just about sex, it's really about power and gender. Covering these across different religious traditions, I think is a really important, Katherine: you know, thing to do.Absolutely. And I still think that the Catholic church is the most well known. I was at a, I was at a class. Sunday night and I had your book with me to just like read while when there was like not stuff going on or while I was like waiting for people and and somebody was like, Oh, what's, what's that book about?And so I like, I talked a little bit about the book and then said, I was interviewing someone who taught a class and abuse in the church. And they were like, Oh, like the Catholic church. And I was like, well, I was like actually like I focus on like the evangelical church. And the person that I was talking to you was actually someone who like attends.Church [00:16:00] and and so it was almost like they just like had no idea that that, but that was like happening within the actual like regular everyday evangelical churches, I think a lot of evangelicals will still try to like, think, oh, that's a Catholic church problem and that happened over there in the Catholic Church, when it is.very rampant in the evangelical church across every denomination. Like I haven't, I have not met or encountered the denomination yet. That was like, Oh no, we're good. We don't have that. That doesn't, that doesn't happen. And so I'm really, really grateful that you were teaching that class and just like thinking of the students that got to be in there and be a part of it.And I got to have that conversation. I'm just like. Woo, would I, would I love, you know, I went to seminary and I'm like for grad school and I'm like, would I have loved to have a class like that in seminary? Yes, but they're not going to have that kind of class in seminary. Like critiquing the church that they're like creating ministers for.[00:17:00] And, and someone asked me that the other day of like, did you ever have a class on like abuse in the church? And did anyone ever talk about like clergy abuse or spiritual abuse or anything in seminary? I was like, no. It was like it did not exist. It was like that didn't happen at all. Marie: Well, I think, I think you're absolutely right.I am hopeful. I feel like in a lot of the conversations that I'm having now, and I, you know, I'm doing interviews with survivors, but also with. Pastors with people working for the church, developing curricula and training programs, you know, for pastors in seminary. I mean, I actually feel some hope that there's so much energy around bringing some of that knowledge into the seminary classroom requiring.No, in some way, either at the local church level or at seminary. Now it's difficult because as you know, church autonomy is a hugely important principle for groups like Baptists [00:18:00] and other, a lot of other evangelical groups. And so requiring a church. To have a training or requiring certain courses, even in seminary is it's it's hard.And I think a lot of these denominations right now are debating this issue. But still, I think people realize more and more. I mean, the Southern Davis Convention has had Terrible PR over the last several years around its own cover ups of sexual abuse. It's starting to look as bad as the Catholic Church's cover up, right?And so I think Southern Baptist leaders I've talked to, they know they've got to do something. And not just for optics, they've really got to do something, you know big to, to bring knowledge to this issue. So I am hopeful that some of that, what you didn't have in seminary You know, the next generation is going to have some version of Katherine: it, at least.Absolutely. Yeah. Cause I just, I mean, you can't ignore it at this point. It's, it's everywhere. It is everywhere. What was the response? [00:19:00] So you said that you got a really good response from your students in terms of just like evaluations at the end. What was some of like the personal response of students within the class?Marie: Yeah, and I want to say, you know, I gave a lot of trigger warnings at the outset. In the course description, I said, if this is a personal issue for you, Really think hard before you take this class, but come talk to me and I can help you find resources if you want to find resources, but I warned people we're going to read graphic, you know, accounts of sexual abuse.It's hard, even for those of us who are not survivors and I do not consider myself a survivor. It's still it's grueling. It's wrenching it. Keeps you up at night when you read the stuff. So I, I really warned students and I warned them on the first day of class and, and all of that nonetheless, you know, kind of midway through, I knew that I had three or four students who were struggling they [00:20:00] were not getting their work in, you know, I reached out to them and they admitted to me, like this was bringing stuff up for them.So I found myself just saying, don't worry about deadlines. Like take care of yourself, you know, and I told students in class if you need to take a break when we're in class, you know, I've never said this in any other class, but I'm going to tell you now you can walk out and walk around and get a drink of water and come back when you can.And I'm not going to penalize you for that. I, you know, your mental health. is most important here and come talk to me. So students expressed appreciation, you know, in their evaluations that I had been flexible about that as I think anyone should be. One suggestion they did have for me about changing in the future is that my very first minister probably should have been a counselor, probably should have been someone who could come in and talk about trauma and not just the trauma that abuse survivors that we're reading about have suffered, but trauma that you might feel.You know, absorbing [00:21:00] these stories. And so I take that to heart. And I think when I teach the class again, I teach the class again that I'm going to do that first and make sure that I've got better supports set up for students. If, if the, the sort of secondary trauma or tertiary trauma of reading and absorbing all of this gets Katherine: to be too much.Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I can imagine that that would be, that would be. A great idea. To start it out that way. What were some of the people that you brought in, was there someone that like really stood out to you that a story that they told really resonated with you? Marie: Yeah. Well, you know, they, they all stand out for me, but I'll just tell a couple of stories that I think the students found particularly meaningful. And I should say again, to go back to the personal and the student said, it wasn't just hard for them. You know, they loved the class.They loved getting to think about this and process this. And I think they all. felt that this would really shape them going forward. Help [00:22:00] them be better friends and, and helpers of other people who've gone through trauma. You know, I think for a lot of us who aren't survivors, we don't realize how deep the trauma goes until you read and learn.You've got to be educated about that. And I think these guests really helped do that. So I had guests two of the guests have been. Leaders in an organization called snap the survivors network of those abused by priests, which was founded primarily as a Catholic organization for Catholic survivors of clergy abuse, and they really went back into first kind of realizing that the abuse that they had experienced, trying to tell going to church authorities and having in their cases door slammed against them over and over again.And that the trauma of that was worse than the original sexual abuse itself. Right. I'm sure you hear this over and over again. Very Katherine: common. Very common. [00:23:00] Marie: And I think for students to hear their story, but also, you know, they helped create SNAP. They've been public spokespeople across the country. They have helped so many people, so many victims.And, you know, I think educated so many of us who are not victims. about this, that the students found them really inspiring. That was, that was really great. And David Clossie, who was the longtime leader of the SNAP, I'm just lucky because he lives here in St. Louis. And so he was able to visit our class in person along with Barb Doris who was also a SNAP leader, but he's a very emotional person still.And he cries a lot and he'll tell you that. So he'll tell stories and he is, his emotions are right there. But he has also processed it. He has sort of come out on top of it and he's just a really inspiring figure. So students really loved hearing from him. Another standout, I'll just mention just one more.We had a local lawyer and I won't mention her [00:24:00] name because she's really had a tough time. She has worked on a lot of different clergy, sexual abuse cases in the states of Illinois and Missouri primarily, and the laws here. are really, really tough. I would say they are stacked against victims in a lot of very concrete ways.And she talked to us about that and really educated us about the law. And it got so bad for her that after 25, 30 years or so of practicing and working in that area, she just was burned out. She realized that she She could even be a suicide risk after all that she had to leave. And so she went and is now in a completely different field of law.And the students were really, I think, moved by her. Some of my students want to go to law school. They want to work in that area, but they also recognized, you know, what she had to say about the toll that this can take on people. Who really try to find justice for survivors, because it's a lot [00:25:00] harder in some states than others, but it's hard everywhere.Yeah. Katherine: You know? Yeah. It's just, yeah. It really, the justice system doesn't work in favor of of someone coming forward and saying, this happened. Especially if there's, if there's not like, Capturing physical evidence of something like that is just not easy. If it if it even is possible. Yeah, that is, that is really really incredible.Did you have anything else to say about the class and then I would love to just talk a little bit about book. Marie: . No, I would just say that I would encourage if anybody is interested in thinking about teaching a class like this for undergrads, for grad students, seminary students, feel free to contact me, rmg567 at gmail.com. And also I'll just say, I'm still, you know, interviewing survivors and people and would love to hear from folks, but I would just really encourage people to consider doing it. I think. Think it's a very, I, I'm so glad that I was able to do it, [00:26:00] and I will keep teaching that class until I can't teach anymore in retirement.Katherine: Oh, I'm so glad. I'm really, really glad that there are dozens and dozens of more students who are going to get that class so I'm really glad to hear that. So switching to talking about this book, Moral Combat that I mentioned.Earlier, the subtitle has sex divided American Christians and fractured American politics. And then I want to hear about a little more about the current book that you're working on as well. But my main question about this book is why sex? Why is sex such a big deal? What is it about sex that is making it this thing that divides people?Marie: Catherine, that is the question. That is absolutely the question. That's really the question that sent me on the journey to write this. And I don't know if even now I have an answer to it. And really, I came to it thinking like, you know, sex is not a big [00:27:00] topic in the New Testament. It's really not compared to caring for the poor.Caring for the poor, caring for people, helping the world, helping those in need, visiting the prisoner, feeding the hungry. Those are the themes, right? Those are the crucial, crucial themes. They're not the only themes, but that, to me, is so obviously the core that Jesus taught, that that should be the obsession.And it's not. It's, it's not, it's not to say churches don't care about those things, of course they do. Catholic, Protestant, they all care about those things, but the thing that has seemed to be the obsession is around disciplining people for their sexual behavior. And that just struck me and, and it was true in my Southern Baptist upbringing.I mean, that was just like, you know, a very strong theme in life generally. So I think I've always wondered. Why is something like [00:28:00] that so important? And you know, it's partly, I mean, our sexuality goes to the core of who we are, right? In every aspect of our lives. And if we wanna discipline people into being certain kinds of people, that's sort of a really key area.You know, that, that the rules need to be sort of upheld and abided by. But to me, I honestly feel and I know a lot of folks would disagree with me on this, but I think a lot of Christian leaders have really gone way beyond anything, you know, biblical to create systems and structures and rules. That, that weren't really of, of great interest or concern to Jesus or to to any of these early teachers.The early church fathers, you know, once Jesus is dead and Paul's dead and the kind of church is sort of coming into being in the early centuries, those leaders carried up, cared a lot about sex and disciplining the flesh and celibacy of [00:29:00] course, and, and thought the body was evil and thought sexuality was sort of this evil demonic force.That's kind of where a lot of this influence comes from. If, if you, if you're more interested in going back to a biblical view of Christianity, I just think a lot has been invented, has been weaponized, has been interpreted a specific way to make sex more important than it, than it really ought to be for, for Christian for Christians generally.Would Katherine: you say if... If it's about power, let's just theorize that it's about power. Is there a possibility that sex is just an easy thing to control? And it's more just like open and, you know, like, you can hide it but like something like, attracted to the same sex and you want to have that kind of relationship or, or like that physical act of Being with someone and having [00:30:00] intercourse and like, like those are just like physical things and it's just like an easier thing to control and because it's more like out there could that be a reason why this is the thing if it's about power?I don't know.Marie: No, I think that's definitely part of it. And of course, sex is tied to reproduction, too, right? So it's not just about sexual behavior. It's about, you know, women bearing children and whose children will they be bearing. So, you know, we know that in cultures all across time and place that we've been able to study, sex is also very important in societies.It's not just Christians who have made sex important. So I want to be clear about that. And part of that is because it is still, in many cases, about power. Men want to know that the children their wives are bearing are their children. Like, that's, that's one thing that anthropologists have, have a lot of times talked about.Kinship relations and, you know, these kinds of things. So, sex has been important in part because it is... [00:31:00] deeply tied up in in reproduction. And, and I think our reproductive politics today, a lot of the, you know, the, the refusal to see that the way to reduce the abortion rate is to make contraception more available to prevent problem pregnancies and unwanted pregnancies.But you don't see this huge push on the part of Christians, mostly. To provide free birth control and to make sure that there's sex education in the public schools of a certain kind, those issues often, you know, are still kind of, you know, forbidden and go with anti abortion politics. So I think the reproduction part is really a key part of this, but, but yes, I think it is also about power and.restricting women's movements, restricting you know, this huge portion of their lives and, and, and making a certain model of marriage, you know, seem like the norm, seem like the God ordained norm. There's one norm for marriage and, and that's [00:32:00] it. And you know, really, I think there's had to be a lot of.Inventiveness to make that seem like, you know, something that God so deeply cared about right, Katherine: right, right. So would you say that aside from it being a sex thing, that it really is a gendered thing? I know you had mentioned that earlier and like more about dare we say it's control of women and it's not just about.celibacy and like purity. It's really about the purity of women. Oh Marie: yeah. I, I, I think the sources bear that out very, very clearly that the, you know, the, the sort of purity obsession has always been the purity of women. It's not to say men's purity hasn't been talked about and emphasized to a degree, but men have been far less punished for sex outside of marriage and sometimes not punished at all compared to the, the sort of discipline.of women for, for, for that. So [00:33:00] I think it's very much about gender. The book, Moral Combat, you may remember, you know, I start the book with the suffrage movement, the women's suffrage movement, because that, to me, in some ways, is, is one of the, the kind of, of the core culture war issue we we almost think now so women got the right to vote in 1920, of course, and we kind of think of that as like, Okay, well, that happened and then everything you know, everybody accepted that.But in fact, there was so much energy against allowing women to vote, you know, it was very close that the, you know, the states had to ratify, you know, this amendment Tennessee my home state was the final one to ratify it. I'm proud to say. My grandmother was a suffragist who, who marched for that, but it wasn't easy.And the animus against women voting or women having something like equal rights, at least in that one sphere, you know, that animus didn't go away. And so I think a lot of what [00:34:00] you see in these later movements against birth control. Against homosexuality, against sex education, against reproductive rights.The roots are there in the anti suffrage movement. So it's very much about women, about a desire for women to stay in their place. And let me say clearly, it's not just men who have wanted that. I don't write this as a men against women yeah.just as many women are invested in that kind of patriarchal hierarchical system because they benefit from it in some way economically, socially. And so patriarchy, or I want to say misogyny, these are systems held up, I think equally by men and women in many, many cases. And and that's a crucial part of the story that we also sometimes I think tend to forget.Katherine: Yeah. And I think it's a, it's harder. , I would just say from just like [00:35:00] purely from a personal personal perspective to see women fighting so hard for these things. And when I see women upholding it and defending it just it feels very different and it lands very different than like a man.Upholding it and and defending it as well. But it's also true. It's also very, very true. And, and I, and I learned that very quickly working in and very patriarchal spaces that just because there was a woman in the room didn't make it safer and didn't necessarily mean that women were actually respected in that space., and yeah, absolutely. And then I don't remember the name of the person, but the person that was fighting for Susan's Someone maybe fighting for contraception and like the main argument was that it was gonna allow women to be loose and, and have sex with anyone they wanted. And, and she was just like, give us a, give us a break.Maybe we just like, just want to have freedom. Maybe that, [00:36:00] maybe that's what it, maybe it has nothing to do with promiscuity and just like, just like that being the argument, like, and that is. It's still the argument and that's why I like the church isn't, you know, pushing contraception and making contraception available as a, as a potential solution to mitigating abortion is because it's, it's that same thing, like present day, that same argument is just going to give them license.Yet we're not talking about that for men, like men who don't have to most of the time. deal with a fear of getting pregnant. Like that's not something that men have to carry. So we're not worried about them. We're not worried about it in that, in that context. And so, oh my gosh, there's so many, so many things.Is there anything else you want to say about that? And then I'd, I'd love to hear about your, your latest that you're working on now. Marie: Sure. I think you're right. I mean, just. stress. I think what [00:37:00] you're saying is we're still having the same debates that we were having in the 1920s.It's a maybe a modernized version of it. But I do think our contemporary debates over abortion and and even to some degree, sexual abuse, sexual harassment, you know, I write about Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas and also about Paula Jones and Bill Clinton, the kind of sexual harassment wars of the 1990s, some of which has been a little bit Thank forgotten.Those were really critical to because it was about how are women treated in the workplace and what is okay and what is not okay. And it's shocking to think what we used to tolerate. You know what? I mean, my mother, who's now in her eighties, she'll tell me what she tolerated as a secretary, you know, in the 19 sixties and seventies and in the church.Well, yes, in the church and outside the church, both the kind of soft sexism that we all accepted. Not so soft sometimes. So anyway, I would just say that I do think we learn a lot from history [00:38:00] and that reading up on these earlier debates, I think really sheds important light. On the kinds of arguments that we're still having now, both within the church and within our larger culture.Yeah, Katherine: and then just like the context of history about just like history just like repeats itself and then repeats itself and repeats itself and, and it's typically about one group of people or one set of people wanting to be in charge, and in America, it's about like the religious right. It seems wielding Christianity and this war for morality as the way to have power and be in charge and just even just thinking about like very recent election and political figures who, who didn't give a shit about, actual Christianity.They just got people. You know, whipped up into a frenzy and made them fearful of, , the trans, the trans [00:39:00] agenda, the figurative trans agenda. And before that it was the gay agenda, and then the feminists, and the feminists are after your children, and and then, and then now, like, making abortion the thing and it's about, like, saving children, but it's not about saving children, it's about this, like, control thing and so that to me is, I mean, just intersects with my work, and is, is pretty scary to me that this, And there was kind of just this out of body experience a little bit just like reading the book and thinking about that and then I'll have those moments at times of like, this was the sect, and I came from a very fundamentalist world that was, was very militant in fighting abortion and getting, you know, Christian people that they claimed were Christians into politics and fighting, against like sex, sex education in school because it would just give people license to promiscuity.They were very, very militant and it's just a very out of body experience to think like that was a sect that I used to be a part of. And I believed they were good people, and [00:40:00] some of them are very good people and, and that the outside world was bad, like those, those bad people that are pro abortion or pro, pro same sex marriage, and to think just like how militant it was.Now, like looking back on it and just like how just active it was and genuinely good people within it. Absolutely. 100 percent at the same time, people who are just wielding this for power and, and wanting to like claim all of this power in the name of Jesus. And it's, it's scary. It's, it's real.Marie: I would just say I, yeah, that is, that's it's so true. I, I see it as a true tragedy that Christianity has been so weaponized in this country and elsewhere, not just in the U. S. And all the time and energy and money that has gone into some issues at the [00:41:00] expense to, in my mind.Of the poor and the suffering and other, you know, really critical issues and how blase we are about economic inequality in this country and, and the state of the poor and suffering of many kinds. To me, it's a tragedy, you know that that we allowed ourselves to get so hung up on particular issues, and have just been almost blinded.To what I see is really the core message, Katherine: In the Bible. How does that. Message tie in with what you're working on right now. Marie: Yeah. Well, it's you know So now this is a hard it's a it's an even more grueling Project as you can imagine because a lot of my sources now are interviews And I really spent a few years now and i'm really in the thick of it now that i'm on leave Interviewing, you know, survivors mostly, but also family members, pastors, you know, people, as I said earlier, just like [00:42:00] my class, different visitors coming from different places, but the vast majority are survivors, survivors of childhood sexual abuse, of abuse when they were teenagers, and also adults, you know, adults, largely women I've interviewed so far, but of course there are men too, you know, who have been abused as men sexually abused.And abuse happens everywhere. You know, abuse happens absolutely everywhere. The church is not, you know, the only place it happens. But cover ups feel different in different spaces, I think. And the, the degree of the cover up in the church, Is so disillusioning for so many people, the spiritual abuse, the spiritual damage that that has caused people in many ways.That's sort of the big takeaway for me right now is just how profoundly damaging. Sexual abuse is for people when they are not believed, when they are not treated with love and care. [00:43:00] And, when they are prevented from seeking justice, it's crazy making. I mean, people can just go absolutely crazy.And the degree, you know, the levels of substance abuse and all kinds of. You know, self destructive behaviors that emerge from that is just stunning. And, we've learned a lot about this since 2002. And that 2002 is an important year because that was when the Boston Globe broke the big stories, the early stories about abuse in the Catholic Church in the, in the archdiocese of Boston.And, you know, that kind of began this trajectory of attention to the abuse crisis, at least within the Catholic Church, and then more recently in Protestant groups, too. But I think we still have no idea the scope, the scale, the damage that has been done and is still being done because of the cover ups, because of bullying by pastors who refuse to acknowledge this problem [00:44:00] and women who enabled them pastors wives or, or church staff or others who just don't want to believe this is true.And so really, enable abusive environments to thrive. It's a hard subject. And, you know, I want to write a book people want to read. So I've got to find a way to be, you know, I want to say Here's what we do, like here's where hope is because otherwise who wants to read a book that's such a downer? But I think we all need to be better educated about the realities out there so that we can be equipped to know what to do about them.Katherine: Mm hmm. Is there any Distinction made or is this part of the scope of the book where you're outlining just the difference between someone who experiences that sexual abuse and cover up within a spiritual context versus. Or, you know, Hollywood, is there a distinction made at all?Marie: Yeah. And, you know, a lot of the guests who came to my class, we asked them this and I asked [00:45:00] survivors this, I think so because so let me separate out Catholics and Protestants here because one, one big difference between, I think what Catholics are taught about priests and what Protestants are taught about ministers is the sort of stature of the priest.So traditionally Catholics were really taught that priests. It's were of a higher order, almost a human being, they, they had a sacramental status closer to God. They were the closest thing that anyone was going to get to God. And the kind of deference that that created is part of why children felt they couldn't tell if a priest abused them, because it was, this was God.And I think the damage for them, it was as if God Had done the abuse and that's very hard to get over and I've heard this from some Protestants, too I think evangelicals at least for me don't have quite the same, you know, the the pastor is still a human being He's perhaps been called, he's [00:46:00] got a calling.And so there's still, you know, a lot of deference given to him. But I thought when I started this project, okay, there's a difference in how pastors are viewed. But I am coming to realize that in a lot of these evangelical churches, It's pretty close to the same as the Catholics were taught that pastor.He's on a higher level And what he says, people believe there's been a lot of abuse of women working for churches. You probably know if I had a lesson for listeners right now, I would say if any pastor comes to you And asks you to come work for his church A red flag up in your mind because he, if, if the pastor needs a new church staff, they need to open the search.They need to go through HR. They need to have a whole process like companies have, like universities have not, you are being targeted. I think in many, many cases, if someone comes to you and says, Hey, you know, you're doing a great job in the church. Come work for me. I have heard so many [00:47:00] stories from women now.That's where it starts. Or, or maybe she was already being grouped, you know, she's come to the pastor for counseling, she's having difficulty in her marriage or some kind of difficulty with her children. And just, there's a certain kind of pastor who will target the vulnerable in that way.Now, let me say clearly the vast majority of pastors are not abusers, I definitely believe that. But. There, there are a lot more than I think most of us are aware of people or maybe that because once they reach that position of power, they become sort of convinced of their own authority in a way and they become abusive.I don't know the psychology of it. I don't know how all that works. But I think that's really critically important for people to, to recognize. Katherine: Absolutely. Yeah, and I would say like maybe the distinction between like the Catholicism, the elevation of a priest is it's elevated institutionally, whereas, at least what I have seen [00:48:00] when it's a pastor in that place they've sort of put themselves there, and it's not necessarily.Institutionally across the board, that's what the institution is pointing people towards, but they have managed to get into that position and created that for themselves. Marie: That's a very good point. I hadn't thought of that. And I think that's a very good point, but the ones who are best at it, they persuade everyone in the congregation that they deserve to be in that place.Right. But you're right. It's the kind of, the, the charismatic leader, you know, the Ravi Zacharias or, you know, at the local level, whatever, you know, person that is. But you're right. They managed to kind of accrue that charisma and that sense of leadership themselves. Katherine: Yeah, and maybe the institution comes after in terms of picking it up and not addressing it and not feeding into it.Chicken or egg. I don't know which comes first. Well, this has been really great and I'm just, I feel like there's so much more to talk about, [00:49:00] but I will wrap us up there. Is there anything else that you wanted to share as we Wrap up the interview part. Marie: No, I would only ask if anyone listening is interested in talking to me.I really am. I am trying to interview as many people as I can survivors, but also people who want to work for reform in the church and don't know how family members. friends of people that they worry are being abused. Counselors, anyone, if you are interested in speaking with me, my email is open. R. M. G.567 at gmail dot com. And I would welcome correspondence with people. I am willing for anyone who wants to be anonymous, to be anonymous. I'm keeping confidentiality from people. A lot of people have very good reason to be confidential. They have children. Sometimes an abuser is, is someone's spouse or ex spouse, and they really don't want their children to know, right?There's all kinds of reasons. And I'm sensitive to that and we want to protect anyone and not [00:50:00] re traumatize them. But yes, I welcome anyone to contact me who would be Katherine: interested and your timeline for. When they hear this episode versus when your book is coming out. So timing, when is, when are you hoping to finish?Marie: Well, I'm a scholar, not a journalist and scholarship is slow. So this book is going to be, you know, a few years in the making realistically. So it's not like I've got a deadline, you know, of the end of October or something, I I'm on leave all of this year, the 2023, 2024, I could. Here and Katherine: anytime. All right, great.And I will put that information in the show notes so people can easily access and thank you so much for your time and all of the work that you're doing. Marie: Thank you, Catherine, for all the work you do. Yeah, I love your work and you keep at it. Katherine: Thank you.Thank you so much. Uncertain is produced, recorded, edited, and hosted by me, Katherine Spearing. Intro music is [00:51:00] from the band Green Ashes. I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. And if you have, please take a moment to like subscribe and leave a review. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time.

Dr. Anita Hill joined Radio Boston to talk about her long career of advocacy and her upcoming performance with the Boston Symphony Orchestra.

Jim Margolis, partner at GMMB media, is a pioneering Democratic media consultant who is featured in the new documentary, The Bigger Hammer, by filmmaker Keith Gaby that focuses on the message war behind the Obama vs. McCain 2008 race (now available on Amazon). In this conversation, Jim talks his path to politics through student activism in Kalamazoo, managing House campaigns, and working on the Hill before partnering with Frank Greer to start GMMB. He also goes in depth on his work for the Obama Presidential campaigns and shares some of his favorite stories and spots from a career atop the world of political media.IN THIS EPISODEJim's early entry into politics as a high schooler in Kalamazoo, MI...Why a narrow loss in one of the first races he worked was "the best thing that ever happened" to him...Jim talks the important role Congressman Howard Wolpe played in his development...Lessons learned from his early days as a campaign manager and Hill Chief...A one-of-a-kind story from Kent Conrad's upset 1986 Senate win in North Dakota...How his partnership with Frank Greer started and Jim's early days as an ad-maker...A deep dive into Jim's role spearheading media on the Obama '08 presidential campaign...Why Jim had the '08 Democratic Convention stage dramatically changed at the last minute...Jim's 101 on producing political conventions...Jim on working for two of his most prominent Senate clients, Barbara Boxer and Harry Reid...What got Jim in Harry Reid's doghouse for a couple of weeks...Jim talks the evolution of his firm GMMB over the years...Jim breaks down the art of political ad-buying...Jim's advice to the next generation of political media consultants...AND 3/10/83, Brock Adams, Africanists, Mark Andrews, David Axelrod, blue suits, Quentin Burdick, the Chicago Tribune, Cinderella years, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, crazy hats, Fred Davis, disease implications, Byron Dorgan, ending apartheid, extra chips, fancy Florida hotels, Dianne Feinstein, Fort Defiance, Wyche Fowler, game show sets, good ears, Larry Grisolano, herculean tasks, Anita Hill, Paris Hilton, Invesco Stadium, John Kerry, Jim Messina, Michigan State University, Walter Mondale, Robby Mook, mosquito nets, Navajo reservations, David Plouffe, punch cards, Bernie Sanders, tax commissioners, Western Michigan University...& more!

It was an era bookended by Anita Hill and Monica Lewinsky. It gave us MTV's “boxers or briefs,” popularized the MILF, and spawned the first-ever “sex tape.” But what did 90s culture really teach us about love and sex? Jess is joined by sex educator and bestselling author Emily Nagoski, whose new book, Come Together, is out this month.   Guests: Emily Nagoski, sex educator and bestselling author  Further reading: She wrote a bestseller about sex. Then her own sex life fell apart. (NY Times) Come Together by Emily Nagoski (her new book) See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Author Yascha Mounk has deep doubts about the way identity and social justice is being fought for in society today. He joins Thom challenges him in a fascinating discussion.Plus - Thom reads from 'Believing: Our Thirty-Year Journey to End' by Anita Hill and 'Birthright Citizens: A History of Race and Rights in Antebellum America' by Martha S. JonesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In conversation with Dorothy Roberts One of the country's foremost authorities in civil rights, Black feminist legal theory, race, and the law, Kimberlé Crenshaw is a law professor at UCLA and Columbia Law School, where in 1996 she founded the African American Policy Forum. She is the co-author of Say Her Name: Resisting Police Brutality Against Black Women and Black Girls Matter: Pushed Out, Overpoliced, and Underprotected, and her articles have appeared in Harvard Law Review, the National Black Law Journal, the Stanford Law Review, The New Republic, and The Nation. The coiner of the terms ''critical race theory'' and ''intersectionality,'' Crenshaw served on the legal team of Anita Hill during the confirmation hearing of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas and wrote the background paper on race and gender discrimination for the United Nations' World Conference on Racism in 2001. Including a forward by Janelle Monáe, #SayHerName explains how Black women are especially susceptible to police violence and the ways in which various communities can help empower them. Addressing social justice issues of policing, state surveillance of families, and science, Dorothy Roberts's books include Killing the Black Body, Shattered Bonds, and Fatal Invention. She has also authored more than 100 scholarly articles and has co-edited six books on various legal issues. The George A. Weiss University Professor of Law and Sociology and the Raymond Pace and Sadie Tanner Mossell Alexander Professor of Civil Rights at the University of Pennsylvania, Roberts is the director of the Penn Program on Race, Science, and Society. In her latest book Torn Apart she explains that the abolition of the U.S. child welfare system-which is designed to punish Black families-will liberate Black communities. Because you love Author Events, please make a donation to keep our podcasts free for everyone. THANK YOU! (recorded 11/14/2023)

On Thursday's show: News 88.7 reporter Ashley Brown recaps Mayor Sylvester Turner's final State of the City address and briefs us on some recent developments at Houston City Council. Also this hour: A conversation with lawyer, educator, and author Anita Hill ahead of her visit to the University of Houston where she will deliver a lecture Oct. 5. Then, we learn more about a planned development in Montgomery County called Two Step Farm, which its developer believes will attract people seeking a small town feel mixed with the natural world – and music. And we listen to the final installment of Hot Stops, a series from News 88.7 examining heat at Houston-area bus stops

NPR Legal Affairs Correspondent Nina Totenberg has covered the U.S. Supreme Court for about 50 years. As she gears up for a new court session that begins Monday, Totenberg discusses the cases she's watching. She also talks about the headline-grabbing ethics concerns swirling around the high court, breaking the Anita Hill story in 1991, and her recent memoir, “Dinners with Ruth.”

NPR Legal Affairs Correspondent Nina Totenberg has covered the U.S. Supreme Court for about 50 years. As she gears up for a new court session that begins Monday, Totenberg discusses the cases she's watching. She also talks about the headline-grabbing ethics concerns swirling around the high court, breaking the Anita Hill story in 1991, and her recent memoir, “Dinners with Ruth.”

In this episode, which was originally published in August 2022, Sean Illing talks with Corey Robin, author of a 2019 book about the life and thought of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. Robin discusses how Thomas — whose concurring opinion in the case that overturned Roe v. Wade garnered recent attention — developed the ideological basis of his extremist judicial philosophy, how his views went from the hard-right fringe to more mainstream over the course of his 30 years on the Supreme Court, and how the failures of the 1960s movements shaped his fundamental pessimism about racial progress in America. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area Guest: Corey Robin (@CoreyRobin), author; professor of political science, Brooklyn College and CUNY Graduate Center References:  The Enigma of Clarence Thomas by Corey Robin (Metropolitan; 2019) "The Self-Fulfilling Prophecies of Clarence Thomas" by Corey Robin (New Yorker; July 9) Clarence Thomas's opening statement, Anita Hill hearing (C-SPAN; Oct. 11, 1991) Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison (1952) Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization (2022); Thomas's concurrence American Negro Slave Revolts by Herbert Aptheker (1943) Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution - 1863–1877 by Eric Foner (1988; updated 2014) The Culture of Narcissism: American Life in An Age of Diminishing Expectations by Christopher Lasch (Norton; 1979) The Rhetoric of Reaction by Albert O. Hirschman (Harvard; 1991)   Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area. Subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by:  Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska Engineer: Patrick Boyd Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Establishing a political and personal identity in the public's mind early on is crucial to effective campaigning and to developing a campaign that can withstand both personal and political attacks. Plus- Thom reads from "Believing: Our Thirty-Year Journey to End Gender Violence" by Anita Hill.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In honor of the holiday, enjoy this episode from our colleagues at Slow Burn. What Next resumes regular programming tomorrow. Anita Hill's accusations launched urgent and heated conversations about racism and sexual harassment. They also stoked an anger in Clarence Thomas that's never stopped raging. Season 8 of Slow Burn is produced by Joel Anderson, Sophie Summergrad, Sam Kim, and Sofie Kodner. Josh Levin is the editorial director of Slow Burn. Derek John is Slate's executive producer of narrative podcasts. Susan Matthews is Slate's executive editor. This episode was edited by Josh Levin, Derek John, Sophie Summergrad, and Joel Meyer. Merritt Jacob is our senior technical director. Our theme music is composed by Alexis Cuadrado. Artwork by Ivylise Simones. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

By a 2-0 decision, voting along ideological lines, David Waldman and Greg Dworkin decided on making a Monday KITM: The Supreme Court ended affirmative action. Americans are divided on the court's colorblind decision, literally by shade. Clarence Thomas gifted the US military and penal systems the Black people they need, well, for their own good, and to finally win that argument that he had back in college. Also, to teach Anita Hill, Ketanji Brown Jackson, etc. a thing or two.  Justice Jackson saw through all that and let Thomas know. Of course, these dissents are just liberal tears if nothing is done. It's the era of judicial “pretzeling”… if that means lying and omissions to justify decisions. North Carolina Republicans are too extreme for even this Supreme Court and are still planning to burn it all down following the court's decision. The first thing Jack Smith will do is come for the Lawyers. Will Bidenomics both help out people in rural communities… and convince rural voters to vote Democratic?

Anita Hill's accusations launched urgent and heated conversations about racism and sexual harassment. They also stoked an anger in Clarence Thomas that's never stopped raging. Season 8 of Slow Burn is produced by Joel Anderson, Sophie Summergrad, Sam Kim, and Sofie Kodner. Josh Levin is the editorial director of Slow Burn. Derek John is Slate's executive producer of narrative podcasts. Susan Matthews is Slate's executive editor. This episode was edited by Josh Levin, Derek John, Sophie Summergrad, and Joel Meyer. Merritt Jacob is our senior technical director. Our theme music is composed by Alexis Cuadrado. Artwork by Ivylise Simones. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Anita Hill's accusations launched urgent and heated conversations about racism and sexual harassment. They also stoked an anger in Clarence Thomas that's never stopped raging. Season 8 of Slow Burn is produced by Joel Anderson, Sophie Summergrad, Sam Kim, and Sofie Kodner. Josh Levin is the editorial director of Slow Burn. Derek John is Slate's executive producer of narrative podcasts. Susan Matthews is Slate's executive editor. This episode was edited by Josh Levin, Derek John, Sophie Summergrad, and Joel Meyer. Merritt Jacob is our senior technical director. Our theme music is composed by Alexis Cuadrado. Artwork by Ivylise Simones. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Anita Hill's accusations launched urgent and heated conversations about racism and sexual harassment. They also stoked an anger in Clarence Thomas that's never stopped raging. Season 8 of Slow Burn is produced by Joel Anderson, Sophie Summergrad, Sam Kim, and Sofie Kodner. Josh Levin is the editorial director of Slow Burn. Derek John is Slate's executive producer of narrative podcasts. Susan Matthews is Slate's executive editor. This episode was edited by Josh Levin, Derek John, Sophie Summergrad, and Joel Meyer. Merritt Jacob is our senior technical director. Our theme music is composed by Alexis Cuadrado. Artwork by Ivylise Simones. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today sees a moment of reckoning for Britain, as parliament votes on a report condemning former Prime Minister Boris Johnson for deliberately lying about how his own team flouted Covid rules. The result could have imposed a 90-day suspension on Johnson, but he pre-emptively resigned last week, lashing out at what he called a “kangaroo court." Now, a new video has emerged showing Conservative aides dancing and drinking during lockdown. Christiane discusses this with former Conservative MP Dominic Grieve and political reporter Tom McTague.  Also on today's show: law professor Anita Hill; author Rachel Louise Snyder; Iranian chef Nasim Alikhani To learn more about how CNN protects listener privacy, visit cnn.com/privacy

Sean Illing talks with Corey Robin, author of a recent article — as well as a 2019 book — about the life and thought of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. Robin discusses how Thomas, whose concurring opinion in the case that overturned Roe v. Wade garnered recent attention, developed the ideological basis of his extremist judicial philosophy, how his views went from the hard-right fringe to more mainstream over the course of his thirty years on the Supreme Court, and how the failures of the 1960's movements shaped his fundamental pessimism about racial progress in America. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox Guest: Corey Robin (@CoreyRobin), author; professor of political science, Brooklyn College and CUNY Graduate Center References:  The Enigma of Clarence Thomas by Corey Robin (Metropolitan; 2019) "The Self-Fulfilling Prophecies of Clarence Thomas" by Corey Robin (New Yorker; July 9) Clarence Thomas's opening statement, Anita Hill hearing (C-SPAN; Oct. 11, 1991) Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison (1952) Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization (2022); Thomas's concurrence American Negro Slave Revolts by Herbert Aptheker (1943) Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution - 1863–1877 by Eric Foner (1988; updated 2014) The Culture of Narcissism: American Life in An Age of Diminishing Expectations by Christopher Lasch (Norton; 1979) The Rhetoric of Reaction by Albert O. Hirschman (Harvard; 1991)   Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by:  Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska Engineer: Patrick Boyd Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Vox's Fabiola Cineas talks with Anita Hill, whose testimony during the 1991 confirmation hearings for now-Justice Clarence Thomas highlighted the prominence of sexual harassment and unwanted sexual advances in the workplace. Hill discusses how those hearings changed her, whether or not she has respect for the Supreme Court as an institution, and how her fight to stop gender violence continues today. Host: Fabiola Cineas (@FabiolaCineas), Reporter, Vox Guest: Anita Hill (@AnitaHill), professor, Brandeis University References:  Getting Even with Anita Hill (Pushkin) Believing: Our Thirty-Year Journey to End Gender Violence by Anita Hill (Viking; 2021) Strange Justice: The Selling of Clarence Thomas by Jane Mayer and Jill Abramson (1994) Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by:  Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska Engineer: Patrick Boyd Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices