Podcasts about sandhill road

It's been a heavy week of news in Las Vegas, and our thoughts are with the victims of both recent mass shootings and their loved ones. The first happened last Friday, December 1st at a homeless encampment near Charleston Boulevard and Sandhill Road that saw four injured and one killed. The second at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas on Wednesday left 3 faculty members killed and one injured, currently in life-threatening condition. And on Wednesday, six Pro-Trump fake electors were indicted by a Nevada grand jury for pledging Nevada's electoral votes to Trump, despite lacking the authority to do so. Co-host Dayvid Figler is joined by executive producer Sonja Cho Swanson and Nevada Current reporter April Corbin Girnus to share what we know so far about these developing stories, as of Thursday afternoon. An update: Since recording this episode on Thursday afternoon, we've learned more about the alleged shooter, including the fact that he sent 22 letters to faculty in both Nevada and North Carolina, and left a document "similar to a last will and testament" in his Henderson residence. Per LVMPD: "If anyone has any information or was at Beam Hall on Dec. 6th you are urged to contact the homicide section at 702-828-3521 or by email at homicide@lvmpd.com." We're on social media: Follow us @CityCastVegas on Instagram. You can also call or text us at 702-514-0719. Want some more Las Vegas news? Then make sure to sign up for our morning newsletter here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

www.theotheeros.com LinkedIn | Instagram | X   Eros Marcello a software engineer/ developer and architect specializing in human interfacing artificial intelligence, with a special focus on conversational AI systems, voice assistance, chat bots and ambient computing.   Eros has been doing this since 2015 and even though today for the rest of us laymen in the industry we're hearing about AI everywhere, for Eros this has been something he's been passionately working in for quite a few years.    Super excited to have him here to talk to us about artificial intelligence and help demystify some of the terminology that you all may be hearing out there.    I'm so excited to welcome Eros Marcello to this conversation to learn a little bit more about AI. He is so fully well versed in it and has been working in AI at since 2015, when it was just not even a glimmer in my eyes so I'm so glad that to have somebody here who's an expert in that space.   Eros glad to have you here I would love to just jump into the conversation with you. For many of us this this buzz that we're hearing everywhere sounds new, as if it's just suddenly come to fruition. But that is clearly not the case, as it's been around for a long time, and you've been involved in it for a long time.     Can you take us to as a creative, as an artist, as an architect, as an engineer take us through your genesis and how did you get involved and how did you get started. Let's just start at the beginning.   Eros:  The beginning could be charted back sequentially working in large format facilities, as surprise surprise the music industry, which you know was the initial interest and was on the decline. You'd have this kind of alternate audio projects, sound design projects that would come into these the last remaining, especially on the East and West, Northeast and So-cal areas, the last era of large format analog-based facilities with large recording consoles and hardware and tape machines.  I got to experience that, which was a great primer for AI for many reasons, we'll get more into that later. So what happened was that you'd have voiceover coming in for telephony systems, and they would record these sterile, high-fidelity captures of voice that would become the UI sound banks, or used for speech synthesis engines for call centers. That was the exposure to what was to come with voice tech folks in that space, the call center world, that really started shifting my gears into what AI machine learning was and how I may fit into it. Fast forward, I got into digital signal processing and analog emulation, so making high caliber tools for Pro Tools, Logic, Cubase , Mac and PC for sound production and music production. specifically analog circuitry emulation and magnetic tape emulation “in the box” as it's called that gave me my design and engineering acumen. Come 2015/2016, Samsung came along and said you've done voice-over,  know NLP, machine learning, and AI, because I studied it and acquired the theoretical knowledge and had an understanding of the fundamentals.  I didn't know where I fit yet, and then they're like so you know about, plus you're into voice, plus you have design background with the software that you worked on.  I worked on the first touchscreen recording console called the Raven MTX for a company called Slate Digital. So I accidentally created the trifecta that was required to create what they wanted to do which was Bigxby which was Samsung's iteration of the series for the Galaxy S8 and they wanted me to design the persona… and that as they say is history. Samsung Research America, became my playground they moved me up from LA to the Bay Area and that was it.  It hasn't really stopped since it's been a meteoric ascension upward. They didn't even know what to call it back then, they called it a UX writing position, but UX writers don't generate large textual datasets and annotate data and then batch and live test neural networks. Because that's what I was doing, so I was essentially doing computational linguistics on the fly. And on top of it in my free time I ingratiated myself with a gentleman by the name of Gus who was head of deep learning research there and because I just happened to know all of these areas that fascinated me in the machine learning space, and because I was a native English speaker, I found a niche where they allowed me to not only join the meetings, but help them prepare formalized research and presentations which only expanded my knowledge base.  I mean we're looking into really cutting-edge stuff at the time, AutoML, Hyperparameter tuning and Param ILS and things in the realms of generative adversarial neural networks which turned me on to the work of Ian Goodfellow, who was until I got there was an Apple employee and now it's gone back to Google Deep Mind. He's the father of Generative Adversarial Neural Networks, he's called the GANfather and that's really it the rest is history. I got into Forbes when I was at Samsung and my Hyperloop team got picked to compete at SpaceX, so it was a lot that happened in a space of maybe 90 days.  Katty You were at the right place at the right time, but you were certainly there at a time where opportunities that exist today didn't exist then and you were able to forge that.  I also can see that there are jobs that will be coming up in AI that don't exist today. It's just such an exciting time to be in this space and really forge forward and craft a path based on passion and yours clearly was there.  So you've used a lot of words that are regular nomenclature for you, but I think for some of the audience may not be can you take us through…adversarial I don't even know what you said adversarial … Yes Generative Adversarial Neural Networks. Eros A neural network is the foundational machine learning technique, where you provide curated samples of data, be it images or text, to a machine learning algorithm neural network which is trained, as it's called, on these samples so that when it's deployed in the real world it can do things like image recognition, facial recognition, natural language processing, and understanding. It does it by showing it, it's called supervised learning, so it's explicitly hand-labeled data, you know, this picture is of a dog versus this is a picture of a cat, and then when you deploy that system in production or in a real-world environment it does its best to assign confidence scores or domain accuracy to you know whether it's a cat or a dog.  You take generative adversarial neural networks and that is the precipice of what we see today is the core of MidJourney and Stable Diffusion and image-to-image generation when we're seeing prompts to image tools. Suffice it to say generative adversarial networks are what is creating a lot of these images or, still image to 3D tools, you have one sample of data and then you have this sort of discriminator and there's a waiting process that occurs and that's how a new image is produced. because the pixel density and tis diffused, it's dispersed by you know by brightness and contrasts across the image and that can actually generate new images. Katty So for example if an artist is just dabbling with Dall-E, let's say, and they put in the prompt so they need to put in to create something, that's really where it's coming from, it's all the data that is already been fed into the system. Eros  Right, like Transformers which again are the type of neural network that's used in ChatGPT or Claude, there are really advanced recurrent neural networks. And current neural networks were used a lot for you know NLP and language understanding systems and language generation and text generation systems. Prior, they had a very hard ceiling and floor, and Transformers are the next step. But yeah more or less prompt to image. Again tons of training that assigns, that parses the semantics and assigns that to certain images and then to create that image there's sequence to sequence processes going on. Everyone's using something different, there's different techniques and approaches but more or less you have Transformers. Your key buzzwords are Transformers, Large Language models, Generative AI, and Generative neural networks. It's in that microcosm of topics that we're seeing a lot of this explode and yes they have existed for a while. Katty Where should somebody start? Let's say you have a traditional digital designer who doesn't really come from an engineering or math background like you didn't and they can see that this is impacting or creating opportunities within their space-- where should they start? Eros First and foremost leveling up what they can do. Again, that fundamental understanding, that initial due diligence, I think sets the tone and stage for success or failure, in any regard, but especially with this. Because you're dealing with double exponential growth and democratization to the tune where like we're not even it's not even the SotA state-of-the-art models, large language models that are the most astounding. If you see in the news Open AI is and looking at certain economic realities of maintaining. What is really eclipsing everything is and what's unique to this boom over like the.com bubble or even the initial AI bubble is the amount of Open Source effort being apportioned and that is you know genie out of the bottle for sure when it comes to something of this where you can now automate automation just certain degrees. So we're going to be seeing very aggressive advancement and that's why people are actually overwhelmed by everything. I mean there's a new thing that comes out not even by the day but seemingly by the minute. I'm exploring for black AI hallucinations, which for the uninitiated hallucinations are the industry term they decided to go with for erroneous or left field output from these large language models.  I'm exploring different approaches to actually leverage that as an ideation feature, so the sky is the limit when it comes to what you can do with these things and the different ways people are going to use it. Just because it's existed it's not like it's necessarily old news as much as it's fermented into this highly productized, commoditized thing now which is innovation in it and of itself.   So where they would start is really leveling up, and identifying what these things can do. And not trying to do with them on their own battlefield. So low hanging fruit you have to leverage these tools to handle that and quadruple down on your high caliber skill set on your on what makes you unique, on your specific brand, even though that word makes me cringe a little bit sometimes, but on your on your strengths, on what a machine can't do and what's not conducive to make a machine do and it's does boil down to common sense.  Especially if you're a subject matter expert in your domain, a digital designer will know OK well Dall-E obviously struggles here and there, you know it can make a logo but can it make you know this 3D scene to the exact specifications that I can? I mean there's still a lot of headroom that is so hyper-specific it would never be economically, or financially conducive to get that specific with this kind of tools that handle generalized tasks. What we're vying for artificial general intelligence so we're going to kind of see a reversal where it's that narrow skill set that is going to be, I think, ultimately important.  Where you start is what are you already good at and make sure you level up your skills by tenfold. People who are just getting by, who dabble or who are just so so, they're going to be displaced. I would say they start by embracing the challenge, not looking at it as a threat, but as an opportunity, and again hyper-focusing on what they can do that's technical, that's complex, quadrupling on that hyper-focusing on it, highlighting and marketing on that point and then automating a lot of that lower tier work that comes with it, with these tools where and when appropriate. Katty I would imagine just from a thinking standpoint and a strategy standpoint and the creative process that one needs to go through, that's going to be even more important than before, because in order to be able to give the prompts to AI, you have to really have to strategize where you want to take it, what you want to do with it,  otherwise it's information in and you're going to get garbage out.   Eros Right absolutely. And it depends on the tool, it depends on the approach of the company and manufacturer, creators of the tool. You know Midjourney, their story is really interesting. The gentleman who found that originally founded Leap Motion, which was in the 2010s that gesture-based platform that had minor success.  He ended up finding Midjourney and denying Apple two acquisition attempts, and like we're using Discord as a means for deployment and many other things simultaneously and to great effect. So it's the Wild West right now but it's an exciting time to be involved because it's kind of like when Auto-tune got re-popularized. For example it all kind of comes back to that music audio background because Autotune was originally a hardware box. That's what Cher used on her song and then you have folks that you know in the 2010s T-Pain and Little Wayne and everybody came along it became a plug-in, a software plug-in, and all of a sudden it was on everything and now it's had its day, it had 15 minutes again, and then it kind of dialed back to where it's used for vocal correction. It's used as a utility now rather than a kind of a buzzy effect. Katty Another thing to demystify.. Deep fake—what is that? Yes deep fake, can be voice cloning, which is neural speech synthesis and then you have deep fakes that are visual, so you have you know face swapping, as it's called.   You have very convincing deep fakes speeches, and you have voice clones that that more or less if you're not paying attention can sound and they're getting better again by the day. Katty What are the IP implications of that even with the content that's created on some of these other sources? Eros The IP implications in Japan passed that the data used that's you know regenerated, it kind of goes back I mean it's not if you alter something enough, a patent or intellectual property laws don't cover it because it's altered, and to prove it becomes an arbitrary task for it has an arbitrary result that's subjective. Katty You are the founder and chief product architect of BlackDream.ai. Tell us a little bit more about that what the core focus? Eros: So initially again it was conceived to research computer vision systems, adversarial machine intelligence. There's adversarial prompt injection, where you can make a prompt to go haywire if you kind of understand the idiosyncrasies of the specific model dealing with, or if you in construction of the model, found a way to cause perturbations in the data set, like basically dilute or compromise the data that it's being trained on with malice. To really kind of study those effects, how to create playbooks against them, how to make you know you know zero trust fault tolerant playbooks, and methodologies to that was the ultimate idea.  There's a couple moving parts to it, it's part consultancy to establish market fit so on the point now where again, Sandhill Road has been calling, but I've bootstrapped and consulted as a means of revenue first to establish market fit. So I've worked for companies and with companies, consulted for defense initiatives, for SAIC and partnering with some others. I have some other strategic partnerships that are currently in play. We have two offices, a main office at NASA/Ames, our headquarters is that is a live work situation, at NASA Ames / Moffett field in Mountain View CA so we are in the heart of Silicon Valley and then a satellite office at NASA Kennedy Space Center ,at the in the astronauts memorial building, the longevity of that which you know it's just a nice to have at this point because we are Silicon Valley-based for many reasons, but it's good to be present on both coasts. So there's an offensive cyber security element that's being explored, but predominantly what we're working on and it's myself as the sole proprietor with some third party resources, more or less friends from my SpaceX /Hyperloop team and some folks that I've brokered relationships with along the way at companies I've contracted with or consulted for. I've made sure to kind of be vigilant for anyone who's, without an agenda, just to make sure that I maintain relationships with high performers and radically awesome and talented people which I think is I've been successful in doing.  So I have a small crew of nonpareil, second to none talent, in the realm of deep learning, GPU acceleration, offensive cyber security, and even social robotics, human interfacing AI as I like to call it. So that's where Blackdream.ai is focusing on: adversarial machine intelligence research and development for the federal government and defense and militaristic sort of applications Katty This image of an iceberg comes to mind that we only see in the tip of it over the water you know with the fun everybody's having with the Dall-Es and the ChatGPT's but just the implication of it, what is happening with the depth of it ….fascinating!! Thank you you for being with us and just allowing us to kind of just maybe dip our toe a little bit under the water and to just see a little bit of what's going on there. I don't know if I'm clearer about it or if it was just a lot more research needs to be now done on my part to even learn further about it. But I really want to thank you for coming here. I know you're very active in the space and you speak constantly on about AI and you're coming up soon on “Voice and AI”. And where can people find you if they wanted to reach out and talk to you some more about this or have some interest in learning more about Blackdream.ai? The websites about to be launched Blackdream.AI. On Linkedin I think only Eros Marcello around and www.theotheeros.com,  the website was sort of a portfolio.  Don't judge me I'm not a web designer but I did my best. It came out OK and then you have LinkedIn, Instagram its Eros Marcello on Twitter/X its ErosX Marcello. I try to make sure that I'm always up to something cool so I'm not an influencer by any stretch or a thought-leader, but I certainly am always getting into some interesting stuff, be it offices at NASA Kennedy Space Center, or stranded in Puerto Rico…. you never know. It's all a little bit of reality television sprinkled into the tech. Katty: Before I let you go what's the last message you want to leave the audience with? Eros:  Basically like you know I was I grew up playing in hardcore punk bands and you know.  Pharma and Defense, AI for government and Apple AI engineer, none of that was necessarily in the cards for me, I didn't assume. So my whole premise is, I know I may be speaking about some on higher levels things or in dealing more in the technicalities than the seemingly, the whole premise is that you have to identify as a creative that this is a technical space and the technical is ultimately going to inform the design. And I didn't come out of the womb or hail from you know parents who are AI engineers. This isn't like a talent, this is an obsession.  So if I can learn this type of knowledge and apply it, especially in this rather succinct amount of time I have, that means anyone can. I mean it's not some secret sauce or method to it, it's watch YouTube videos or read papers, you know tutorials, tutorials, tutorials. Anyone can get this type of knowledge, and I think it's requisite that they do to bolster and support and scale their creative efforts. So this is gonna be a unique situation in space and time where that you know the more technical you can get, or understand or at least grasp the better output creatively the right it will directly enrich and benefit your creative output and I think that's a very kind of rare symmetry that isn't really inherent in a lot of other things but if I can do it anyone. I love it thank you for this peek into what's going on the defense component of it, the cyber security component of it, the IP component of it… there just so many implications that are things we need to talk about and think about, so thank you for starting that conversation. Absolutely pleasure I appreciate you having me on hopefully we do this again soon.    

There is only one Silicon Valley. Countries around the world have tried and continue to attempt to recreate the magic of Sandhill Road. But there will be only one Silicon Valley. So what can different startup ecosystems do to emulate the success of Silicon Valley? This week on The Startup Podcast, Chris Saad and Yaniv Bernstein dive into the key tenants on creating your own Silicon Valley.  What marketplaces do NOT work Why governments need to focus on only ONE place to strive for ecosystem success and change taxes to persuade foreigners to move How to capitalise on your area's natural advantages How to elevate expatriates How to take big bets effectively  Government. Education. Economics. AI. This podcast covers it all and more.  Whether you're a government official, startup founder or operator or someone interested in the startup landscape, this episode is a goldmine for opportunities to make your startup and startup ecosystem a global force.     The Pact  Honour The Startup Podcast Pact! If you have listened to TSP and gotten value from it, please: Follow, rate, and review us in your listening app Follow us on YouTube Give us a public shout-out on LinkedIn or anywhere you have a social media following  Key links Follow us on YouTube for full-video episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNjm1MTdjysRRV07fSf0yGg  Get your question in for our next Q&A episode: https://forms.gle/NZzgNWVLiFmwvFA2A The Startup Podcast website: https://tsp.show  Learn more about Chris and Yaniv Work 1:1 with Chris: http://chrissaad.com/advisory/  Follow Chris on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrissaad/  Follow Yaniv on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ybernstein/

A New Church in Rattoo St Augustine Wilson Gun 1887 In this special episode Danny Houlihan returns once again to Ballyduff and through the faded brown documents and old newspaper clippings from old scrap books of the day takes a journey back in time at a part of a shared shared history between Ballyduff and Ballybunion a unique Church commissioned by the late Wilson Gun and his wife of Ballyduff North Kerry Ireland in the year of 1877 and 1879.  Indeed not many visitors to the area may know that located on Sandhill Road in Ballybunion there were two former Protestant Churches located there, the old Killehenny built after the Great Irish Holocaust of 1846 & 1847 and another St Augustine which is now the town library and is used by everyone and is well worth a visit. The church has a unique past, its beginnings originated in Ballyduff, its foundations, stone laid upon stone in the shadow of the famous round tower in Ballyduff just outside Tralee North Kerry 3 miles distant from Ballybunion, this church was moved stone by stone to Ballybunion in 1957 If you would like to support my research which is ongoing and podcast episodes, why not Buy Me a Coffee this will be used to update my research and equipment, I will give everyone who contribute a shout out in my series. Just click on the link below to support in any way big or small thank you.buymeacoffee.com/yxqdanny  

In this week's episode, cycling journalist and former CyclingTips Editor-in-Chief Caley Fretz joins Randall to discuss cycling's changing media landscape, the economic headwinds facing professional journalists, emerging models for supporting quality reporting and story-telling, and how the meaning of cycling changes as one pedals through life. Also: press-fit bottom brackets, hookless road rims, and too-stiff components and frames. Episode sponsors: Thesis Bike and Logos Components  Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Links to Caley's work: The Road to Nairo's House: https://cyclingtips.com/2018/01/the-road-to-nairos-house/ The Teaching Toe Strap: https://www.velonews.com/news/road/the-toe-strap/ Tales From The Tour: The Rest Day Pose: https://cyclingtips.com/2018/07/tales-from-the-tour-the-rest-day-pose/ Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello and welcome to the gravel ride podcast. I'm your host Craig Dalton. This week on the show, I'm handing the microphone off to my co-host Randall Jacobs. Who's got veteran cycling journalists, Kaylee frets on the pod. To discuss some of the challenges and opportunities facing cycling journalism. You may know Kaylee from his work as editor in chief, over at cycling tips. And prior to that over at Velo news, both publications have undergone some downsizing of late. The economic headwinds facing professional journalists. Our strong, particularly in the cycling world. If we want to have quality reporting and storytelling. A new model needs to emerge. I don't know where this is all gonna end up, but I was super excited that Kaylee agreed to join Randall on the podcast. To just get his perspective and to get into some good old fashioned by geekery. Before we jump in we need to thank this week sponsors from thesis and logos components As many of you know, I'm a long time it's thesis. OB one rider for a limited time thesis is offering $500 off a thesis, OB one with access custom wireless shifting, and your choice of high-end carbon wheels. It's a bike that I can personally attest, stands up to every other carbon bike out there on the market at a really great price. One of the things that I've always appreciated about thesis is that they allow. A unique level of customization. So if you want size appropriate cranks down to, I think 160 or 165 millimeters, you can do that. You can get your stem size, you can customize everything. Based on a free one-on-one consult. So go check out thesis.bike, or contact. Hello at thesis stoplight to get started. I also want to give a shout out to logos components. Logos just receive huge recognition from bike packing.com and was awarded the gear of the year award for the wheelset category in 2022. You might recall an episode. We did a while back on how to choose a gravel wheel set, where Randall went through detail by detail on the design considerations When constructing a carbon wheelset I encourage you to listen to that as it provided a lot of riders with reflection on what they were looking for and what all the different things were, all logos wheels are built on proven open standards with non-proprietary components and with a manufacturing precision. That rivals anybody in the industry, the wheels are backed by Logus is five-year warranty, lifetime at-cost incident protection. And a US-based warehouse and support team to keep you rolling for many years to come. So head on over to logos components.com and use the code community free shipping all one word to take advantage of a free shipping offer. With that business behind us I'm going to pass the microphone back over to randall and his conversation with kaylee frets [00:03:06] Randall R. Jacobs: It's been quite a bit. I think I last saw you at Sea Otter. How have you been? What's going on in your world? [00:03:11] Caley Fretz: Well, I'm unemployed as of November 15th. I mean, yeah, let's just, we can get that one right outta the way. Right. I was part of the layoffs at Outside Inc. To be somewhat differentiated from Outside Magazine for anybody out there. I mean, outside Inc. Does own outside magazine, but it also owns lots and lots of other things. Yeah, myself the editor-in-Chief of Venu as well and two of the CT staff, two really core CT staff. Matt, our managing editor, and Dave Rome, one of our tech editors and, and kinda a legend in space. We're all let go on the same day on November 15th. So I am currently super fun employed and I think after we chat today, I'm probably gonna go skiing cuz it's snowing up in the mountains right now. And so I'm, I'm somewhat enjoying myself. But, you know, fun employment brings with it some level of stress as well, . So that's, that's how I'm doing right now. Yeah. [00:03:59] Randall R. Jacobs: Well, and I appreciate you sharing. I think last we rode together. You were still living in Boulder and you've since moved to beautiful Durango. When was that move? [00:04:07] Caley Fretz: That was shortly after we had our, our first child. My wife grew up here and, and we have grandparents here to help with childcare and all the rest. And we just wanted to get off the front range. No offense to the front range. There's too many people and there's fewer people here. And I can go skiing 18 minutes from here, from my door, and I can't really complain about that. [00:04:27] Randall R. Jacobs: Housing costs are probably a little bit less bonkers out that way as well. I was in Denver and particularly Boulderer lately, and it is nuts. [00:04:34] Caley Fretz: it's a little bit better here, although not as, Not as good as it was four or five years ago. It, it, it's a zoom town, right? So in the last couple years it has, it's gone up like 28% or something ridiculous in, in 2021. We love it here. It's amazing. Durango, the bike community here is, is unbelievable. The mountain biking is unbelievable. And there's nobody that, you have not as many people to share all the trails with. So I, we like that bit of it as well. [00:04:59] Randall R. Jacobs: Very, very cool. And so let's just dive into, cuz, cuz I've been curious share a bit about your background. So I, I've only known you as, you know, in your role as, as a journalist and editor at Cycling Tips. But how do you end up on this path? [00:05:13] Caley Fretz: Oh I mean, how far back do you want to go? I, I, I started racing mountain bikes at 12 or 13 years old. My dad was a cyclist. My dad was, I think one of the founding members of the Penn State cycling team, collegiate cycling team back in the day. So I grew up around bikes and I grew up around bike racing and watching the tour and all these things. And yeah, started racing when my family moved to Burlington, Vermont back in the day at Catamount Family Centers. Anybody who, yep. Very, very northeast connection. That's where I, that was all my youth. Yeah. Any, any any new [00:05:45] Randall R. Jacobs: and, and your dad is still in Vermont, if I recall [00:05:48] Caley Fretz: Yeah, yeah. He he actually just retired, but he, he used to run a small like sort of children's museum aquarium thing called Echo on the, on the waterfront in Burlington. And yeah so, so grew up, grew up racing, grew up around bikes, and went to school out here in Colorado. Mostly to ride by bike to, to ma major in bike racing, pre primarily . Much to my parents chagrin, I would say. And let's see what it, what would've been like junior year, summer in between junior and senior year of, of college. Shout out to a friend of mine, Brian Holcomb, who's still in, in the bike world basically came to me and was like, Hey, you should, you should be an intern at Be News. And so I did that and I, and I, I became an intern at Bean News and worked the summer there. And Ben Delaney was the editor-in-chief at the time, and Ben was, Ben was kind enough to bring me on in a, in a kind of part-time capacity that fall. and then it kind of just went from there. So, so yeah, a couple folks who were still floating around the bike world, I, I owe a lot to at this point. Ben and, and Brian and Zach Vest, who was sort of one of my first mentors and has been a, a marketing manager at Niner and a other, a Scott and a couple other places recently. Math yeah, and just kinda worked from there. So I was a tech editor at sort of tech writer at Be News for a couple years, tech editor at Be News for a couple years. And then kinda worked my way into bigger and broader beats basically, and, and kind of stepped into the racing space a little bit more. Became, I think it was like think it was senior editor or whatever the title was at the end of my, my Bella News tenure which was 2017 which is when Wade Wallace got in touch from cycling tips and he was actually just looking for a person to fill a somewhat similar role, kind of like a features writer do a bit of everything kind of writer. And I loved the idea. I loved cycling tips. I loved the brand. I loved everything that stood for, I loved the fact that it was kinda an up and comer and I had been at Villa News long enough that I was just was looking for a change basically. And so I, I jumped ship from one to the other, from Helen News to ct. Remained really good friends with lots of folks at, at vn particularly guys like Andrew Hood who had done a bunch of Tour de France with and things like that. It's like no hard feelings in that, in that jump. Just wanted something new. And within about a year of that for a number of different reasons Wade had promoted me to editor-in-chief at ct. So that was around 20, mid middle of 2018. And it was an interesting time kind of from a business perspective cuz it was near the end of a period when, when CT was owned by bike Exchange in Australia and we were about to be purchased by Pink Bike. And with all of that happening and then in particular with the purchase from Pink Bike we got a bunch more resource and really could expand into what I think most people probably know, cycline tips as now or maybe we'll say six months ago what they knew it as up, up until quite recently. And yeah. I'm trying to think this, there's not my time. My my time as EIC of, of CIP is, is obviously I think what most listeners out there would probably know, if not of me, then you at least know CIP and you know what we were trying to do there. [00:08:52] Randall R. Jacobs: I know how much grief there is out there for, that core team having been broken up. A lot of people, myself included, who value the perspective that you bring to the industry. It's not simply you know, flipping press releases which, you know, there's a place for like, there's, you know, some people that's, they wanna see what the press releases are but doing really interesting journalism. One of your colleagues Ian tralo, he's done some interesting pieces on Central Asian despots in their role in cycling and on the Afghan women's cycling team. And the controversy with how the UCI was prioritizing getting certain members of that team and the organization out of Afghanistan when the US was backing out. Like, this is not your standard bike industry journalism. And that's an angle that I think is going to be very much missed in the vacuum that's created by your departure and the departure of others from that team. [00:09:42] Caley Fretz: Yeah. It's a sad thing. I think the overwhelming emotion for a lot of us is, is just sadness because we spend a lot of time building this thing and a lot of time and energy and effort and, and yeah. No blood, but probably some sweat and tears in there. And yeah, and it feels that's just sad. You know, I. I enjoyed my time there tremendously. I enjoyed working with people like Ian, with James Huang, with Dave, who got laid off alongside me. It was just a really, I can't say it was massively surprising giving a number of things that I can't actually talk about. But I I, oh, I am still very saddened by it. Yeah, I mean, it's not gonna be what it was because a bunch of the people are gone like that, that, that I can say . Yeah. [00:10:28] Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah. Now, remind me, when did James join the team? Because he, he's someone I've admired for years [00:10:33] Caley Fretz: yeah. He, he joined a, I think about 18 months before I did. So when, when bike exchange, when, when Wade first sold a, a large portion of cycling tips to bike exchange that was sort of the first. Let's say capital infusion that, that the company got. And a lot of that was used to pick up kind of high profile folks, particularly in the United States which is what's sort of their next, the next market that, that Wade wanted to go after. So that was, they picked up James and they picked up Neil Rogers in the us as well as some other folks like, like Shane Stokes in the uk or Ireland, I believe he is right now. Yeah, so, so that was all a little bit before I got there. And part of my, sort of what they asked me to do, what Wade asked me to do when, when I became editor in chief was to figure out exactly how to best use people like James, who do phenomenal work. I mean, I, I, I maintain to this day that the three-person team, the three-person tech team that, that we had at Zeman Tips over the last year which would be James and Dave Rome and Ronan McLaughlin in Ireland as well. Was the best anywhere in cycling media? There's no, there's no question in my mind about that. And so basically trying to figure out how to steer that talent was one of the big things that I was tasked with doing over the last three, four years. [00:11:44] Randall R. Jacobs: Well, and you know, when you read a review from any of those team members that you're, you're getting it straight you know, for better or for worse for the brands that are at the mercy of, of that team. But honestly, it keeps the industry honest. And I recall early in my career in the bike particularly James' writing be being something that I referenced constantly. And in fact, when I was at one of the big players, if I needed to make an argument, I would oftentimes grab an article from someone like him to bring to the argument like, no press fit is not acceptable. And we're gonna spend the extra money and add the weight, and we're gonna tell a story about how a two piece thread together is a better solution. And honestly, it's a solution to fix what was broken when you went, you know, but that's, that's a, that's a, a hobby horse that I think we've all been riding for some time. [00:12:29] Caley Fretz: love hearing that though. I, I genuinely love hearing that because I mean, oh, first of all, James would also love hearing that. He'd be very proud of that fact. I think and yeah, like we, we know that that was the case, right? I mean, we, we the three of us have been making a, a podcast called Nerd Alert for, for, for the last year and a half or two years or whatever. And I got a fair number of, of Less than pleased emails off the back of, of that podcast. Cause we were quite honest in our assessment of what we thought was happening in the industry. And in particular, like I haven't been a tech editor for. Eight, nine years. I'm just a cyclist at this point. But Dave and James are so deep inside it and think they spend so much of their lives thinking about that stuff that yeah. You, you can't ignore their opinions, right? You absolutely can't ignore their opinions. And I think that's, that's a testament to one, the fact that they do their research. And two the fact that they've been right a number of times. And like over the years, I would say that CT is, was known as the anti press fit media outlet, right? Which is like, there are worse things to be associated with, I think, than hating on creaky bottom brackets. Like, who, who wouldn't wanna hate 'em? Creaky bottom brackets. That makes perfect sense to me. [00:13:33] Randall R. Jacobs: Well, and it, and it's deeper than just a creaky bottom bracket. It's detracting from this experience that we are all so passionate about. And so, I think that having someone out there who has influence saying no, this is not the way it should be. Hear the arguments and, and, you know, let a case be made. Hey, you know, come on the podcast and talk about why you think press fit is, is the best way to go about it if you really wanna make that case. But yeah, it's an approach that I, you know, I, I'll take you up on it, but I, I'd probably be on the same side with you on more or less every issue with the exception of maybe a few nuances here and there. But yeah, actually let's have some fun with this. Other stuff other than press fit bottom brackets that would be your hill to die on. [00:14:15] Caley Fretz: well. So actually Dave Ro and I so reminder, Dave Ro and I were both just recently laid off. And so our free, we, we are free to do whatever we want. I don't have a non-compete or anything like that. Right. So, we've kicked, we've kicked off a little podcast and. [00:14:28] Randall R. Jacobs: What is it called? [00:14:29] Caley Fretz: It's called, [00:14:29] Randall R. Jacobs: do people find it? [00:14:30] Caley Fretz: well at the moment it's called the redundant placeholders because we have no idea what to call it. So if you search it, I think any of the, any of the podcast platforms, if you search redundant placeholders, able to find it, you can also find it on, on any of my social channels. I'm at K Fretz on everything cause I'm the only person on the planet with my name. So that's very handy. Anyway David and I were talking about like, okay, so if we were actually literally talking about this yesterday, which is why it's funny that you bring up bottom brackets. Like if, if the bottom bracket the anti press fit bandwagon was the one that we were leading before, what's our, what's our new thing that we get to hate on? And we've actually decided that one of the things that we're most interested in pushing, and if you listen to the episode from this week, you would, you would hear this is bikes that are too stiff and just stuff that's too stiff. So specifically Dave, this, this week brought up the topic of of handlebars that are just like, Way too stiff. Right? Just, just ridiculously stiff. We were talking about the, the 35 mill trend on in mountain bikes, which I hate. And like, I've got a, you know, I've got a giant, I've got a giant trail bike with 170 Mill fork, and then I wanna stick like a, just a two by four in my hands. I don't really understand why I want to do that. And I've ended up with like, like more sort of hand cramp and hand pain on this bike than I've ever had previously. And it's got more travel than any bike that I've, I've had previously. So that, those two things don't really line up in, in my head, right? And, and so Dave and I were basically talking about pushing, pushing back on this need for for stiffer and stiffer and stiffer and stiffer all the time. And the fact that a lot of us don't need that, or really don't want it either. Not only do we not need it, we really don't want it because it makes the broad experience worse. I told a little story about how one of the best bikes I've ever ridden was a not particularly expensive mazzi steel frame, steel fork, steel frame. Then I put a pair of zip 3 0 3 carbon wheels on, so nice, nice light stiff wheel set with a somewhat flexi bike, flexi fork, flexi flexi frame. But it rode like an absolute dream, you know, 27 2 post it might have even had, it might have even not had oversized bars. I can't remember. This is, this is like eight, nine years ago now. And I loved it. I absolutely loved this bike. It, it, it got up and went when I asked it to, and I think the wheel set made a huge difference in, in that. But then it, it cornered like an absolute dream and it was comfortable and it was, it was just beautiful. And it was a, a not particularly expensive steel mozzie, right? Like . So that's, that's, that's the that's the high horse upon which we find ourselves now. The fight for less stiff. Bicycles, I think is what we're gonna go after next. [00:17:06] Randall R. Jacobs: Well, and you can kind of take that a step further, talking about steel frames, for example. If you get a steel frame, even a, a pretty decent steel frame at say o e m cost is going to be quite a bit less than a monocot carbon frame. And you don't have all the tooling costs and everything else, and you can change the geometry if you need to without having to retool. And those bikes are gonna be inherently more affordable at the same time. And unless you're an elite racer who's having to sprint off the line or so on, you know, you either spend less money for an equivalent bike that suits your needs well and is comfortable, or you spend the same money and you put it into say, better wheels. You don't get the cheap out wheels with the three Paul hubs that fall apart and in a year and what have you. Yeah, that's one I'll join you on. [00:17:46] Caley Fretz: So that, so [00:17:47] Randall R. Jacobs: right. So I'm joining the battalion. What? [00:17:50] Caley Fretz: That's what we're pushing from [00:17:51] Randall R. Jacobs: I've got another one for you. And, and this, this one I don't think you'll disagree with cuz we talked about sea otter hooks, bead hooks. So bead bead hooks on any real wheels that are marketed for use with road tubeless. [00:18:05] Caley Fretz: I, yeah. I, I don't feel like I am, I, I like having this conversation with James or Dave around because they know the actual technical reasons. You, yourself probably in the same boat. You know, the actual tech technical reasons why this is, this is a, a terrible idea or a good idea, I guess if, if you're talking other direction. I just know that as a, essentially, like I am kind of just a consumer these days, right? Like I said, I, I, I have not been a tech editor. It has not been my job to follow. Bicycle technology for close to a decade now. So I'm basically just a, a, a heavily invested consumer who pays, you know, quite close attention, right? And as a heavily invested consumer, I cannot figure out if my wheels and tires are going to kill me at the moment. And I think that that is not really an acceptable way forward. I don't , I don't think that that should be allowed in the cycling space. And I, and I, every single time I say that, I get a bunch of hook list aficionados coming back at me saying that, oh, it's quite easy. This works with this and this. I'm like, yeah, but I, I, as a person who does not want to go through a bunch of like charts to figure out what tire to run, I don't want that. Just put hooks back on my rims. I don't care about the 40 grams or whatever. It's, I just don't care. [00:19:14] Randall R. Jacobs: Well, would you like some more ammo for those arguments when they come up? [00:19:17] Caley Fretz: give me more. Am. [00:19:18] Randall R. Jacobs: All right. So, so first off the, it used to be the case that it was a substantial, you know, a reasonable weight penalty and higher cost that is substantially mitigated by new forming techniques for the bead hooks and mini hooks that you can create that have the same impact resistance as hook list, add about five, maybe 10 grams per rim at the high end. And cost, yeah, the cost is a little bit higher, but, you know, insurance premiums aren't cheap either. And if you have a single incident, that's gonna be a problem. So, you know, it was an obvious investment when we made that choice for any wheel that we're marketing for use with anything, say smaller than a 34. Plus you get the compatibility with non tules as you well know. But the other part is you think about the fact that there are compatibility charts that exist, right? [00:20:05] Caley Fretz: I don't want [00:20:06] Randall R. Jacobs: that [00:20:06] Caley Fretz: in charts. [00:20:08] Randall R. Jacobs: yeah. It, it's like if that is the case, then maybe the tolerances are too tight and it, it's actually, I'll tell you from the inside, it, it's actually worse than that because any good company is going to check every single rim for its bead seat circumference, right? So those are pretty easy to get within spec. And then the tires, the tires are not all checked. To my knowledge. They're kind of randomly checked. So, okay, now you, now you could have a variation. You only need one. That's not to tolerance, but let's say both of those are in are intolerance. Well, now you have the. and if the tape is too thick or too thin, or someone puts two layers on, they replace the tape or whatever. Maybe it was intolerance initially, but, and then you change it and you know, you do two layers. Now the bead is too tight, it wants to drop into the channel and then pop over the edge of the, of the hook. And so it's just not good. It's just all sorts of not good [00:21:03] Caley Fretz: I hate it so much. It's just, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I always, I was cognizant when, back in, when we were making the Nerd Alert podcast that, you know, we didn't just want to complain about things. Right? Like, we didn't just want to tell the industry that it was, it was doing things wrong. Cuz most of the time this industry does great things and they build lots of amazing bikes that I love to ride. There's just a couple things like this that are like, what, what are we doing? Like, is, is this, is this the beam counters? Is it the gram counters? What counters are, are causing ? This particular, it must be the bean counters at this point. But I hate it either [00:21:42] Randall R. Jacobs: Bean counter. And then, then also the, the marketing hypers. Right? So there's a new thing. Hopeless is a new thing. Car, car wheels don't have hooks. Why do bicycle school wheels have hooks? Well, you know, because it's 110 p s i that people are sometimes putting in there. That's why [00:21:57] Caley Fretz: car wheels have 33 Psi . Yeah. It's like a mountain bike tire. Yes. Well, I, we agree on that point. And I, I think that that is one that we will continue to complain about. And I will just continue to be annoyed that I, that I can't feel confident in what I'm writing without doing a bunch of, of searching and Google searching, and I don't want to have to do that. [00:22:15] Randall R. Jacobs: Nor should your average rider need to rely on that in order to be safe like that. That's the part that I find kind of, kind of bonkers. [00:22:23] Caley Fretz: Average rider doesn't even know to do that. That's the problem. [00:22:26] Randall R. Jacobs: yeah. True. And the la the last part of that is why do the tire pressure recommendation charts kind of go to 70 proportional with the weight and then they just kind of taper off. You know, that that also kind of tells you something about the confidence in this you know, particular combination of tire and rim and, and pressure and so on. But all right. Should we, well, I guess we hop off this high horse then. That was good fun. I could do this all day. So you mentioned Ben Delaney, and he's an interesting person to bring up because he's a, a mutual acquaintance. Also somebody who's writing, I've been reading since my early days in the industry and also somebody who has been trying to figure out how to navigate the changing landscape in cycling media, which the business model for, for media in general has undergone a dramatic shift. And in his case, he's has his new YouTube channel and is doing freelance work for certain publications and is making a go of it that way. But how would you describe the industry dynamics as having changed during your time in the media side? [00:23:29] Caley Fretz: Oh, I mean, I would say I was relatively insulated from it personally for a long time. And until I kind of reached a, a, a level of management, so to speak, that it became my problem , I didn't spend a whole lot of time thinking about it. Yeah, Ben was unfortunately the, the, the, the victim of a, an outside layoff a, a while ago. So he's been making a solo go of it since I think May or June of, of, of last year. Or this year, 2022. And yeah, like his, his he's experimenting and, and it's, it's good to, I like watching him trying to figure this out, right, because I feel like he's kind of doing it for all of us at the moment and, and trying to figure out exactly, you know, various ways to, to make this thing work and. He is, got his, his YouTube channel's. Great. I mean, I watch it all the time. I'm actually gonna be on it sometime soon. I just, just recorded a thing with him picking our favorite products of the year. I think I went in a slight, I think I went in a slightly different direction than, than probably most of his guests. Cause my favorite product was bar Mitz for my cargo bike. So slightly different place than, than probably a lot of folks he's talking to. But the, the media as a whole, I mean, it's rough out there. It's rough out there, right? Like I have spent an inordinate amount of time thinking about this and trying to figure this out over the last couple years as has like weighed my former boss at C T E before he left over the summer. As is everybody, I mean, frankly, like as is Robin Thurston the CEO of outside, right? Like he is genuinely trying to make this thing work. And at the moment as layoffs kind of. It's hard, right? It's really, really hard to, to get people to pay for something that they haven't had to pay for historically, you're, you're trying to put the genie back in the bottle, right? That's what we are trying to do. And it's really, really, really difficult. And then, frankly, it's one of the things we were most proud of at Cycline Tips is that we did have this core, hyper engaged audience that was willing to pay us for, for what we did. And not only just pay us for like, the content that they had access to, but pay us for the whole community that we had built. Right. I mean there, there's a, there's a Velo Club, which is the, the sort of membership program. Atip, there's a Slack group for Velo Club which I, which I'm concerned about right now. But that group of people, couple thousand people not, it's not the entirety of the membership. It's, it's like sort of the most hardcore of the membership, I would say. And it's a couple thousand people. It's sort of like its own little private forum, right? And, and they support each other and they ask each other questions, and they ask us questions asked, past tense, asked us questions. You know, when, when, when they had a tech question, they, they, they ping James and they had a racing question. They, they would, they would ping me or they would ping Matt e or something like that. And they would also just answer each other's questions. And they've built this, this incredible community there. That for me, underpins any successful, particularly sort of niche media or, or, or, or vertical media business. Because those are the people that not only are they giving you money to, to keep lights on, but they're, they're your, they're your biggest advocates, right? They're your, your most important advocates in the space. They're the people that, that tell their friends. They're the people that get other people signed up. They are, they're more important than any marketing spend you could, you could ever possibly utilize. Right? So that, that was one of the things we were really proud of the last couple years. And I think that that is a model in some ways for, for, for going forward. So, you know, like I said, I'm, I don't have a non-compete. I can start anything I want right now and, and I, and to be, to be very blunt, like I fully plan to I think that, [00:26:54] Randall R. Jacobs: think you absolutely should at this. You clearly have an audience that that misses your voice and that values what you brought to the table. [00:27:00] Caley Fretz: Yeah. And, and I would say it like, honestly, it's, it's even, it's less my voice and it's more like Dave Rome and Matt and like the rest of the crew because I, I, I do like to put, you know, put the folks that that were writing day, day in, day out for ct, like, well ahead of anything that I was doing. But I, I did spend more time than they did thinking about how to, how to build a media business. And so, yeah, I, you know, we wanna, we wanna, we wanna do something here. That there's it's only been a couple weeks since we were, we were. Let go. So we're still figuring out what the details are. But like I said, you know, we've already kicked off a little podcast. We know that there's a lot of people out there that are kind of waiting for this. And we will, we will just try to give them what they want, I guess. I mean, my, in my mind, the, ideal sort of media entity of the future and I, I've used this term a couple times with, with Dave in, in talking about these things is, is essentially an aggregation of niches or niches if, depending on which pronunciation you prefer. So rather than try to go really broad and talk about a little bit of everything, which, which tends to be kind of the model across most of cycling media, I prefer a concept where you, you essentially allow editors to. To dive into their, their interests and their strengths. Right? You know, you take, you take Dave Rome and you say, Dave, you love tools. You're real weirdo about it. But we appreciate your weirdness and we, we, we embrace it and, and do it. Like, tell me everything you can possibly tell me about tools, because I'm pretty sure there's an audience there. And even if it's not that big, even if it's a couple thousand people, if they are hyper engaged with you, a couple thousand people in a recurring membership model, recurring revenue model is enough to pay Dave plus some, right? And then you sort of, you take that concept and you, and you expand it out. And yeah, it's, it's, it becomes the basis by which you can build a, a, a media entity. That I think is, is sustainable. Not none, nothing I'm saying here is wholly original, right? Like this is the broadly the direction that a lot of different media entities are going. Anybody sort of follows that world. There's, there's like, there's a new politics site called S four that is essentially the same rough concept, right? You, you dive headlong into, into particular beats. You provide a ton of depth in those beats. You hit the, the audience, people who, who really care about that particular topic, and you pull that group in and then you do the same thing over here and you pull that group in, you do the same thing over here, and you pull that group in. And there's for sure people that care about more than one obviously. But you really, like, you focus really deep on each one of these things. And that's the, that's the, if I could build something and, and I, you know, like I said, I, I intend to try, that's the concept. I think that that makes the most sense to me from a. from a business perspective, from an editorial perspective, from from every perspective I can, I can think of, basically. [00:29:59] Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah, so I've had folks like Russ Roca from PathLessPedaled. On the pod. He has a YouTube channel you may or may not be familiar with, but that's become his livelihood, right. And he has sustainers through Patreon. He doesn't do endorsements and things like that. I don't think he's doing any sort of sponsored episodes or anything of that sort. And he's been able to make a living. And there are obviously plenty of YouTuber influencer types who may have less scruples about promoting things and things of that sort. But who I'm curious, either within bike or, or outside a bike what projects do you see succeeding in the model that you could imagine emulating or building upon? Because I've seen a bunch of attempts at it and it's, it's a really tough nut to [00:30:43] Caley Fretz: it's a tough not to crack. I, I would say that the biggest and most obvious is the athletic, which was just purchased by the New York Times for something like, I think it was 425 million. Now, so the sort of caveat around that is that that's probably less than they were actually hoping for. This is a, a VC funded media entity that, that primarily covers ball sports. And their whole thing was you take, you, you, you essentially apply the beat reporter model of like a local newspaper. You know, you, you, the, the, the Denver Post for example, will have a Broncos beat reporter. Then all they do is talk about the Broncos, right? And, and they're even allowed to kind of be fans of the Broncos a little bit. They take that and they apply it to every single ball sport. So both types of football, you know, baseball, basketball, all the rest. And they apply a beat reporter to every major team. And sometimes more than one beat reporter to, to really big teams. You know, like if we're talking English, English Premier League you know, Manchester United has a couple different writers on it. Aston Villa has probably won, right? So, but, but, but even so, if you're a massive Aston Villa fan and you just want your Aston Villa News, you can go, you know that the athletics gonna have it cuz they have a person who is dedicated to your team and nothing else but your team. So you can also get like, okay, well I want some broader, I want World Cup news, I want, I want the Manchester United news. I want the Ronaldo news, but I really want my Aston Villa guy, right. That is essentially the same model that I'm talking about where like, I believe that people really want Dave Rome's tool. They probably also care about lots of other things that, that we will write about. But they really want Dave room's tool stuff. And that's probably the thing that's actually gonna get them across the line from a, from a membership perspective, right? Is that deep, deep, deep love of this one thing that a content creator they like is talking about. That's the kind of thing that, that, that moves the needle in. So yeah, the athletic is, is kind of the biggest, most obvious example of this kind of working. They made I think some strategic areas early on in the way that they pulled staff together that made it quite an expensive organization to run. And I think that's part, probably part of the reason why they didn't get quite as much cash for it as they thought. But still building a media a media entity from nothing in the last, I think it started five years ago or so. I remember sitting at a Tor de France press buffet with some of the. The British. So at the time it was, you know, sky Era. A lot of big name British sport writers, sports writers were coming over the tour, and a couple of those guys were talking about job offers from the athletic and actually like how insanely well paid they were going to be So I think [00:33:13] Randall R. Jacobs: And the, these are full, full-time positions. We're not [00:33:15] Caley Fretz: oh, yeah, yeah. [00:33:16] Randall R. Jacobs: Just shifting everything to freelance. Like so [00:33:18] Caley Fretz: No, no, no. These are, yeah, [00:33:20] Randall R. Jacobs: models Do. [00:33:21] Caley Fretz: no, I mean, I don't, I mean, perhaps they're contractors or something, but like, you know, the, the, these individuals are writing a, a story a day most of the time about the particular beat that they're talking about. A story every other day, depending on the, on the, on the writer probably. But anyway, yeah, about about five years ago. So you see, you know, you've got a media entity that's only about five years old and just sold to the New York Times for half a million or whatever it was, or sorry, half a billion. [00:33:43] Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah. [00:33:43] Caley Fretz: a pretty, that's a success story in my mind. And shows that the. The model can work, I think. There's no guarantees and that's a scale that I don't really have any need, want, or desire to come anywhere near. But I do think that the core essentially value proposition of membership that they, that they showed worked, can work elsewhere. It can work in cycling, can work across endurance media, I think. [00:34:12] Randall R. Jacobs: Well, and again, with my kind of very cursory understanding of the space, they were required by the New York Times, which itself went through its own economic model crisis and had to make the switch to a paywall. And the quality of the content was sufficient that they're, they're making such large acquisitions, so they must be doing something right. They're, they're not the failing New York Times. As some folks called them a few years ago. I think there's also something to be said for consolidating quality and having the interaction of the sort that you did at at cycling tips, not just through Velo Club but also just the comments section. It, it was a very unique space and your team was in there. Interacting and the, the nature of the communication that I saw, the way that your readers were engaging there, it didn't seem hierarchical at all. It was a conversation with, with you and your team and that that was very, very cool to see. And that was something quite special that I think is more a consequence of the people involved than of the particular platform as special as cycling tips was. And I was one of the early readers that was, those are my racing days when it was literally just the blog and it was pointers on how to train. It was the cool thing at the time. And. Actual cycling tips. Yeah. That name was, was a direct, directly correlated with the contents. But I don't know if I've shared this with you, but in addition to the podcast, which is founded by Craig Dalton we also started this Slack community called the Ridership, which also is bit over a couple thousand members, and also has these like healthy dynamics. We call it a, a community of Rogers Helping Riders. And that was directly inspired by what you guys do at Velo. like saw what you were doing over there was just something that wanted to emulate, found inspiring saw a place for. And I'd be curious one of the things that Craig and I have talked about, is some form of shared platform that's somehow democratically governed. Where content creators and those who are engaging with their content who wanna support them and so on, can all meet and having that be something centralized in the sense that it's all meeting in the same place, but decentralized in terms of the governance structure, and then maybe even set up as a non-profit. I'm curious if you've had any thoughts around that sort of thing. [00:36:35] Caley Fretz: Yeah, I've actually sort of played around with similar ideas. We, yeah. In this, well, and again, in the sort of couple weeks that I've been thinking about, really thinking about this now we thought through, so, so ironically, one of the things that. There's been a fair number of complaints around with outside was was essentially like web three and, and NFT stuff. However some of that technology would actually make something like what you're talking about potentially work quite a bit better. Again, I haven't spent, we, we didn't go too far down this, this, this rabbit hole cause we feel like getting something off the ground relatively quickly is, is, is a priority. But I agree that, that something platforms work, right? Like that's essentially, that, that's all YouTube is, is just a platform for other people to, to, to put content on. They monetize it over top. They give you a cut, they take most of it. That's a, it's a pretty good business actually. So like could you do that for endurance sports, perhaps? Probably. Are there enough? Are there enough really high quality individual content creators out there to make that work? Probably, maybe like, are, are there enough Ben Delaney's, who would love to probably work with a platform that, that increased their visibility? But, you know, in, in exchange for a cut of whatever he's making, probably. I mean, that's essentially the, the deal that he's made with YouTube, right? Like we were saying. I think there's something there. I don't, I think it'd, I think it'd be incredibly difficult to, to get off the ground and would almost have to be quite organic and you'd have to be kind of willing to, to sit on it and let it grow for quite some time or, or sit on a bunch of investment money and, and do it that way. Which I don't necessarily have the time for at this point in time, but I like the idea. I really, I like, I genuinely, you know, I've, I've had a lot of conversations with other people in, in bike media over the last couple weeks because for obvious reasons, people giving me a ring. They're saying a lot of 'em are saying basically like, Hey, I'm sorry just checking in on you. Stuff like that. And we, and we get to talking about this sort of thing. And one of the things that keeps coming up is this desire to stop competing so directly with each other as bike media, right? Like the space is too small. We all do our own thing. We talk to maybe the same audience in general, but we talk to them in very different ways. And you know, like I I I, I, I've been on the phone with editor in chiefs of, of, of a couple different major bike outlets in the last week and all have said something along those lines. And I think that some sort of collective would, would hit the same. Yeah, it would hit, it would hit the same. there, right? Of a, of a desire to provide a space for everybody to just create really good work that they actually get paid for. Cuz that's the hard thing again, you're still talking about putting the genie back in the bottle. You're still talking about trying to get people to pay for, for something that they historically haven't paid for, or you're running an advertising based model, which is incredibly difficult. And in part, and this particular moment is very, very difficult. I mean, you know, Robin, the CEO of outside mentioned that specifically in the letter that came along with with these layoffs is like the advertising world out there right now, particularly in endemic media, like cycling is bad. It is bad news. You know, they're, they're looking into 2023 and seeing and seeing steep drop-offs in the amount that that is being spent. So you've run up against kind of similar problems, I think with that model. But it is certainly something that is The incentives to me feel like they're lined up for creators in a, in a model like that, right? Because they, if done right, they would directly benefit from their, their work. Whereas, you know, something that's always kind of frustrated me in this space is like, the value of myself and, and, and editorial teams have increased the value of entities tremendously o over my career. And then they get sold and I see none of it And so like that, that the incentive, [00:40:24] Randall R. Jacobs: and [00:40:25] Caley Fretz: structure is not, is not great within most of bike media [00:40:29] Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah. It's bad enough in the tech space where there are stock options, but generally to the founder goes most of the spoils. Even though and I say this as a founder, I don't create most of the value, right? Nothing that, that I could do would get off the ground without all the other people who make it happen. And so, it's only right that there be a distribution of ownership and a sharing of the rewards if there's success, which in turn incentivizes success. In the case of cycling tips, in reading the comments it's very clear that the readership knows it. They're not there for cycling tips. Cycling tips is the bander under which all the people whose perspectives they valued. It's where those people are. And so, your standalone brand and that of your colleagues, has value and has value in particular, if it's brought in a single place where people can interact with you as, as they had in the past it's a terrible thing to lose. And you know, whatever the reasons for it, obviously there are economic headwinds. But it's, it's unfortunate. But there's a saying that I, I live by that seems to apply, which is change happens when the fear of change is less than the pain of staying the same. [00:41:36] Caley Fretz: Hmm. [00:41:37] Randall R. Jacobs: And there's nothing quite like a radically changing economic model or layoffs or things like that that make staying the same, really painful. And so whether the fear has changed or not, time to take the leap and people like yourself and Ben and others have been making that leap. I wonder you mentioned that some sort of platform would have to. Either be funded by a bunch of VC money, which honestly I don't, if you wanna end up with a small fortune, start with a big one. Throwing VC money at things is a really good way to end up with Juicero. I don't know if you recall that [00:42:10] Caley Fretz: Oh, yes. [00:42:11] Randall R. Jacobs: 130 or 160 million of Sandhill Road money lit on fire for a a glorified electric press for If anyone's curious, look this up. It is. It'll, it'll make you feel that yeah, it, it'll make you question the judgment of, of Silicon Valley in a way that I have learned too from the inside over the years. But the organic piece let's, let's unpack that cuz I, I have a couple of ideas that I'd like to bounce off of you. So platforms like YouTube, I suspect it's gonna be very hard for somebody who has an audience on YouTube or who wants to build an audience to leave YouTube. But having a platform that is essentially an a. So if you're a content creator, wherever your content is, this is the one place where you can find all of it along with, categorized content from other players. So you want to learn about tools you have, Dave Romes YouTube videos about tools. You have his podcast about tools. You have other content creators content there. And then it becomes kind of platform agnostic like you can be anywhere, but this is the place where you go to find it. And this is the place where you go to interact. Cuz the YouTube comments, that's not an interaction space that's largely a trolling space or, or it's a largely one directional sorts of conversation happening. Even, even the healthiest version of it is still not a conversation. But if you have a YouTube video embedded in a a community, [00:43:27] Caley Fretz: Mm-hmm. [00:43:28] Randall R. Jacobs: Now all of a sudden people are in digital community together and not just over say Dave and his tool-based content or his tool focused content. Not to say that's all he does, but using that as an example, but also Dave in community, in his local chapter, right. In his local riding community. And in the context of a place where people are also going for, James' bike reviews and you know, your Twitter de France coverage and, and things like this that's one model that I've wondered, like if there was such a platform. [00:43:59] Caley Fretz: how, how, how do you monetize it? Is it, is it pay? Walled, [00:44:03] Randall R. Jacobs: That's a big question, right? [00:44:04] Caley Fretz: Well, so, so, the reason I ask is because I, I, like, I would see a couple different options, right? And, and we're getting into real sort of media theory here, but , [00:44:11] Randall R. Jacobs: This, this was actually part of the conversation I wanted to have with you long before all these changes. And it's something we've discussed on the pod before as well with other content creators. [00:44:19] Caley Fretz: I, I think So I, I'll say that first and foremost that I'm, I'm not anti paywall. I know some of the, some others are in, in the media space, but I fundamentally believe that if done properly you're essentially only targeting. So, so, so I'm, I'm a big advocate of what, what we call meter paywall, which is basically you get a couple free stories in a given amount of time whatever the number is, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, whatever you want. And then at some point you, you pay right? Now, the nice thing about that is that you know, if we, if we take a, let's take a hypothetical cycling media outlet with somewhere in, you know, we, we'll call it, we'll call it 2 million unique users a month, right? You've got 2 million people showing up at a website every month. The number of people who are actually gonna get to the paywall that are gonna go to enough stories to get to that paywall is probably something in the neighborhood of like, Less than 5% of those people. It's a tiny, tiny, tiny number because a huge number of those people are coming in from Google. They're, they're, they're seo, they're coming into SEO stories, they're coming into, you know, how to bet in my disc brakes. And they're, they're in and they find out how to do that and they're out. Right? And that's the only interaction you have with them. And they're useful from a page view perspective if you're monetizing that. But they're not particularly useful from a membership perspective cuz who's gonna pay to get one story, right. That, that's, that doesn't make any sense. So you're really only trying to monetize your super users. So your super users are that 5%, the people that actually end up hitting paywall. And part of the reason why I'm not anti paywall is because those people that, that, that small group of people that is coming back day after day after day after day, they value you. And if they truly value you, they should pay for you. , like, I don't have any problem with, you know, we put a ton of time and energy and effort into this and it is our jobs. And we need to get paid. And if people, if people appreciate what we're doing enough to come back every single day and they're not willing to pay for that, then as far as I'm concerned, they need to look at themselves and, and, and ask why. Right? Like, all I'm asking for is, is, you know, eight bucks a month or whatever to continue doing so that, so that you can do something that you do every single day that you enjoy, that you, that you gain information and entertainment from inspiration from even. I think that that's a pretty reasonable trade off. I don't really have any problem asking the super user to do that. I think that there are other paywall versions of a paywall that, that I, that I don't agree with, sort of philosophically, I don't agree with paywall in a hundred percent of content. I also think that that just ruins your discoverability and it, it, it doesn't allow anybody [00:46:49] Randall R. Jacobs: was, I was gonna say, is [00:46:50] Caley Fretz: Yeah. Then nobody, [00:46:53] Randall R. Jacobs: thing or is it more just practically like, you're, you're gonna cut off all the channels for discovery? [00:46:58] Caley Fretz: Both. Yeah. I, I, it, it realistically, yeah. Like I said, your discoverability goes to zero. People can't tell that you make good content. I have kind of a similar issue with the, the like premium content model. So you, you know, you give away your, your crappy stuff for free and the really good stuff you gotta pay for, like, I don't like that either. Cause why then anybody's strolling around your website, it's gonna be like, well, it's the only thing is I can read are crap. So why would I pay for the, i, I don't know that [00:47:23] Randall R. Jacobs: poor, it's a poor pitch. [00:47:24] Caley Fretz: It's a bad pitch. So, so I have issues with that. I also just like philosophically, you know, the, the sort of fully hard pay wall that you can't read anything without paying beyond the discovery of discoverability problems. I just kinda have issues with that because like if we do write a, how to bet in your disc brake so they don't make noise story. Like, I want people to be able to access that, right? Like, then I don't have to listen up. people's loud disc breaks. You know, like people, I, I have no problem sort of providing that much content to somebody for free. And I think that the fully pay well in that is, is, is isn't great. But again, I I'm not against paywalls in general. Meter paywalls I think work quite well. They yeah, we know that they're effective. They can be incredibly effective, particularly if you have this sort of requisite essentially story volume to make them work and, and sort of audience size to make them work. So given that like the, the sort of concept that you are talking about, paywall seems like a, like a, a, a good way forward because again, you're sort of avoiding the avoiding the need to, to chase advertising dollars constantly. And this is, this is gonna be somewhat a reflection of what I'm thinking for, for. For myself going forward, obviously you're avoiding, you're, you're avoiding chasing advertising dollars incessantly, which, you know, I'm not against advertising either. I think the right advertising partners can be, can be crucial, right? They provide lots of actually value to an audience at some point, right. You know, the fact that you get bikes to test the fact that you have a good relationship there. Those, those are all valuable things. So not, not anti advertising either. I'm just more anti, constantly chasing every single cent you can possibly get out of advertising. And the, and the sort of the, the, the extra resource that, that very concept requires. And so yeah, some sort of like membership driven thing lines up with the sort of ethos of what you're talking about, which is very community driven. We know communities are willing to invest in their own space where they can be a community. And so that would make sense as well. And if you start to do things like add too much advertising to something like that, then you do the incentives start to shift. Cuz you start working for the advertisers instead of working for the community. And that I think goes against the whole ethos that you're talking about of the sort of communal thing. So that would be my, that would be my 2 cents on, on, on how to build something like that. Like I said, it is a concept that, that we played around with and I've played around with in my head for, for some time actually. I personally, again, it's more of a, more of a time issue for me than anything. Not that I don't think it could be cool and don't think it could work. I just think that the, to build that community would take quite a bit of time. And also figuring out the precise method of paying. So the other roadblock that I, that I came across when I was thinking through this was the precise method of paying content creators in that scenario, it's quite complicated. Cause are you paying them? Are you paying them by page view? Are you paying them? Is there a tip jar? Is there some sort of, of, you know, rank voting system when people sign up, like, I like these three creators and I don't like these three, and so the top three get, get my money. And the, and the other three don't. That starts to create some perverse incentives toward bad content as well, right? And, and essentially that's the, that is the YouTube problem. The YouTube problem is that YouTube is incentivized for clickbait. It's incentivized for garbage content, , because that's, that's the stuff that gets picked up. And think about, think about your average, like YouTube headline or YouTube sort of, title card. Versus what you would find on a, a site like cycling tips these days. Right. It's a dramatic difference. Like we, we would have to change headlines depending on whether it was going on YouTube or going on on the site back in the day. Cuz YouTube is incentivized to be like all caps and exclamation points and somebody crashing in the title card and all these things that we kind of hate because that's what you end [00:51:25] Randall R. Jacobs: Kaylee, Fritz destroys X, Y, [00:51:27] Caley Fretz: Exactly. So after the monetization question, how do you actually split up that money with the content creators? It's a, it's a, again, I like, I love the, the idea, I love the concept, but the sort of those particular decisions. Be crucial to success and crucial to it actually working for the people that, that you, that you know, that you want, want, would want it to work for. And it'd be hard. It'd be really hard. I I don't have the solution to those questions, which is why I, again, thought through a lot of this and, and thought through a similar concept, not, not identical but a similar concept and, and basically came to the conclusion that in the near term, a a slightly more traditional model is not the worst thing in the world, right? Like, build really good content, pay people for it make people pay for it. , that's essentially the, that's the, the, the three part business plan of most membership driven media entities these days. Does that all make sense? I feel like I went in a bit of rant there. [00:52:31] Randall R. Jacobs: Not at all. Not at all. And in fact, it's a conversation I'd like to continue cuz I have a few ideas that probably we, we don't want to dedicate a whole episode to just this conversation. But certainly appreciate you pulling back a curtain on the sorts of questions that you as an editor in the space and an editor for one of the most respected publications in the space and for good reason, providing that perspective in the sorts of things that you are thinking about from this new Vantage point is very much appreciative. So thank you for that. I wanna go in a completely different direction. What are the pieces that you've written that you most enjoyed or found most challenging, or that were most meaningful for you as a writer? [00:53:08] Caley Fretz: Hmm. Internally at cycling tips. We called them riddles. It was a, it was a coin, a term that I intro coined for his little, the little essays. Right. There's a couple of those that I, that I really enjoyed writing and, and liked writing. It's just sort of the pure act of, of, of sort of language, basically like playing with language. Which is still fundamentally like why I started doing this to begin with is cause I really enjoyed doing that. And the last couple years have stepped away from writing almost entirely. Not entirely, but almost entirely. And, and so when I did get a chance to write, it was always, it was always meaningful and I, and I liked it. That tended to be at things like the Tor de Frances where, you know, I would essentially send to myself cuz I, I wanted to go cover the to Frances again. I had plenty, plenty, plenty of, plenty of talented, talented writers that, that reporters that could have gone instead of me. But at some point you pull the boss card and I'm like, I'm gonna the tour So, so yeah, there's a couple pieces on that front. Actually one of the first pieces I ever wrote for segment tips it's, it was called The Road to Niro's House. And it was about a trip that my wife and I and two friends took to Columbia. And it, it, like half the photos are broken on it now. It's, it's, it's from like 2017 like 6,500 words of a trip around Columbia and all the sort of things that, that riding in Columbia. Particularly in 2017 meant sort of keeping in mind that that, you know, a relatively large and disastrous war there only kind of wrapped up around the 2010 mark depending on who you ask . So I, I, I really enjoyed that piece. And then, yeah, like these, these little riddles, you know, there's a couple that I've written over my career that I that you tend to write them in 20 minutes, right? Because something just hits you in the head and, and you just, I mean, you just get it out, but it, because of that, it's, they're very pure. I think. I wrote one about the toe strap that my dad would use to attach a sock full of Tube tire, co2, you know, flat fixing implements underneath his saddle. Right? And he would, he would strap this thing underneath his saddle with a, with a strap, like a tube sock underneath his saddle with a, with a, with a tow strap, like a leather tow strap. And, and I, and I wrote this story about how, like, you know, I just remember when I was 12, 13 years old. And you know, my dad is obviously a much stronger cycl cyclist than me at that point. And just like, you know, trying to stay on his wheel with this like, toe strap dangling in front of me as like the, you know, I'm just, I'm just, I just need to stay on the tow strap. Wrote a piece about that at some point that I, that I ended up, I, I really liked. And it was meaningful to me because of my, my relationship with my dad is like very tied into my relationship with cycling because we grew up doing it together and, and still ride together when we can and things like that. There was one about eating Castle and Carcassone during a rest day, Tor de France that I liked. Again, these, you know, [00:55:59] Randall R. Jacobs: Castle in Per, [00:56:01] Caley Fretz: Castle is is like a, [00:56:03] Randall R. Jacobs: I'm, I'm, I'm not so [00:56:04] Caley Fretz: is like, is like a meat, like a meaty stew thing you know, white beans and, and, and some, some meat. And Carcassone is a town in southern France with a big kind of world heritage site castle over top of it. And it's always hot as hell there. They often have restage there at the torque. It's always hot as hell. And I have yet to find a hotel or an Airbnb there that has air conditioning. So you're always just like baking, you know, second rest day of the Tor De France. You know, I, I think I was sitting in a cafe. And I had a couple roses like you do and, and eating a castle, which is also hot. So I'm like, I'm hot eating a hot castle and just watching the world kind of go by like the sort of Tor de France rest day world go going by and, you know, like Greg Van Ama coming up and, and stopping at a red light. I'm this, I've wrote the story a while ago and I'm trying to remember what I even talked about. You kn

This week's guest has the true street cred in identifying dominant companies early, before markets take hold. Dan Ahn is the co-founder and managing partner of Clearvision Ventures, a leading, evergreen venture capital fund, which he founded to help world-changing entrepreneurs.    In this episode, we talk to Dan about investing in ChargePoint and what it was like to have a front row seat during the cleantech bubble. Dan also shares what he looks for in founders, and what he saw into the future of  EVs (electric vehicles) that most investors on Sandhill Road failed to see.   Learn more about Dan Ahn's work at Clearvision Ventures.   ClimateTech with Kentaro is produced by our incredible team at Persefoni and Hueman Group Media.  Learn more about Persefoni and our climate management and accounting platform by subscribing to our weekly newsletter!

This week's guest has the true street cred in identifying dominant companies early, before markets take hold. Dan Ahn is the co-founder and managing partner of Clearvision Ventures, a leading, evergreen venture capital fund, which he founded to help world-changing entrepreneurs.    In this episode, we talk to Dan about investing in ChargePoint and what it was like to have a front row seat during the cleantech bubble. Dan also shares what he looks for in founders, and what he saw into the future of  EVs (electric vehicles) that most investors on Sandhill Road failed to see.   Learn more about Dan Ahn's work at Clearvision Ventures.   ClimateTech with Kentaro is produced by our incredible team at Persefoni and Hueman Group Media.  Learn more about Persefoni and our climate management and accounting platform by subscribing to our weekly newsletter!

When Andrea Gardiner first saw an image of pioneering female rock climber Louise Shepherd hanging off the side of a sheer rock face, it was like a punch in the chest. It was the realisation for Andrea that if one woman could climb some of the most challenging rock faces in the world, there was no reason that she could not do the same. So began a life of adventure, including skiing in world championships and climbing most of the cliffs depicted on the apple screen saver. Along the way, Andrea has herself become a role model, blazing the trail as one of the very few professional women venture capital investors as the founder, CEO and chief investment officer of Jelix Ventures. Andrea is convinced that disruptive, scalable, technology businesses are critical for the future economic prosperity of Australia and is passionate about backing daring technology founders to make the world better. Her experience as a corporate lawyer, investment banker and a natural entrepreneur, enable Andrea to meticulously select, execute & manage investments all with an eye to mitigating risk. Because you learn some good habits as a world class rock climber and your life depends on excellent preparation! Links and resources Andrea Gardiner on LinkedIn Jelix Ventures Podcasts and books Origins Secrets of Sandhill Road by Scott Kupor Venture Deals by Brad Feld Other Louise Shepherd For more information about Scale: Scale Investors Scale Educated

On this week's episode of Inside Outside Innovation, we sit down with Todd Embley, Senior Startup Advocate for Agora. Todd and I talk about the new technologies and trends from no-code tools to embedded audio and video platforms, that affect how we see, hear, and interact with each other. We also explore how companies are tapping into startups and startup ecosystems to enable founders to build and impact the world more effectively. Let's get started. Inside Outside Innovation as the podcast to help new innovators navigate what's next. I'm your host Brian Ardinger, founder of InsideOutside.IO. Each week. We'll give you a front row seat into what it takes to learn, grow, and thrive in today's world of accelerating change and uncertainty. Join us as we explore, engage, and experiment with the best and the brightest innovators, entrepreneurs, and pioneering businesses. It's time to get started. Interview Transcript with Todd Embley, Senior Startup Advocate for AgoraBrian Ardinger: Welcome to another episode of Inside Outside Innovation. I'm your host, Brian Ardinger, and as always, we have another amazing guest. Today, we have Todd Embley. He is a Senior Startup Advocate for Agora and a formerly with China Accelerator. So welcome to the show, Todd, Todd Embley: Thank you, Brian. It's good to be here. Brian Ardinger: I'm excited to have you because we've met a while back early in my startup days when I was running NMotion. You were in China. And we met at some global accelerator network conference. I think it was in San Diego, perhaps. So, you spent a lot of time in Asia, as I did. And recently moved back to the states, working for a interesting company called Agora. We had a chance to run into each other again in Lincoln. Todd Embley: Yeah. Thanks very much. I actually did come back from China and moved to the U.S. but now I'm back in Canada. I am Canadian and I'm living in Western Canada. Brian Ardinger: I wanted to start the conversation with the most recent company that you're with is a company called Agora. It's an interesting company for a couple different reasons. And it's a real-time engagement platform that a lot of popular companies are using to build on top of like Run the World, which is something that we've used for our IO Conferences and that. And some of our IO Live events. I think you guys provide like the SDKs and the building blocks to enable these types of startups to build off of. So, I I'd love to get your take, not on just Agora, but you've got an interesting role there as a Startup Advocate. So, what is a Startup Advocate? Todd Embley: It's a great role, for those of us who aren't necessarily adept at selling. And we fall under marketing. And the role is really, if I were to compartmentalize everything that we're about and our ethos and thesis. Is go out into startup land and be as helpful as possible. Try to integrate. You know, we sponsor. I run workshops. I meet with lots and lots of entrepreneurs all the time, and we're just out there trying to be as helpful as possible. And the great thing that the company and the founders and senior leadership have all gotten behind is just be out and be as helpful as possible. And wear the t-shirt while you're doing it. That's almost the be all and end of it. And for those that are really interested in what Agora is and what Agora does, then we can get into that. But essentially, we're not trying to put it in front of everybody and not trying to blast everybody with, with Agora specifically. The team is comprised of people who have been entrepreneurs, been in startups, been in VC, run accelerators. And who have just a lot of empathy for startups and that's kind of where it begins and ends. Brian Ardinger: We see a couple of different companies use this approach of startup advocate type of program to help build their business. Walk me through like, what are the benefits and the reasons why a corporation would want to put together some type of program around this.Todd Embley: You know, I think AWS and what they've been doing for as long as they've been doing it are kind of the benchmark. And they were, I would say the pioneers, at least the most famous pioneers of running programs like this. Our senior leadership had an opportunity in China to talk to the heads of AWS Activate in China.And they divulged some interesting statistics, which I think were the precipice of Agora wanting to build their own startup team as well. And that was that after 15 years of them having a program, they will now attribute up to 65% of AWS revenues today to the activities, you know, over the last 15 years, of their startup program.And what we're trying to do is invest in our future huge customers. Knowing that the world's next billionaire companies, trillion-dollar companies. The unicorns of the future are still just startups today. And if we want to align ourselves correctly with what it takes to build a startup and how hard it is, let's maybe try to get out of their way at the early stages while they're trying to cross the early chasms of, you know, and the difficulties of what it takes. So, from a revenue perspective or from a cost perspective, let's give our stuff for free. You know, until you, their revenue. You can't get blood from a stone. So, while they're still searching for product market fit and revenue, let's let them use our software for free until such time as they are then finding product market fit and then able to start generating revenue. And only at that time, should we then start to talk to them about actually paying for the service? Brian Ardinger: That makes sense. And obviously it seems to be working. I think I read on your website, you've got over 50 billion minutes of engagement on the platform. Probably going up as we speak. I don't know if you can speak to any specific use cases or specifically what you do when it comes to helping these companies get up and off the ground. Todd Embley: Sure. As you alluded to, there are some famous companies that have been using us, especially in the real-time audio space. There are a few NDAs in place. So, you could mention who those companies are. And by all means it's pretty widely known. I necessarily can't speak directly to who some of those more famous ones are. But the nuts and bolts of the program essentially boils down to free minutes. So, my Director, Tony Blank. He and another friend of ours, Paul Ford, used to do this at SendGrid. And that's where they were a big supporter of the Global Accelerator Network where you and I met in the beginning and then the Twilio acquisition of SendGrid. So, he was there. And they were doing a great job as well. And leading on some of the data from their experience there, or Tony's experience there, and then understanding our business and the data that we had over the years that Agora has been thriving. We positioned the amount of minutes at 1 million, we figured 1 million minutes of Agora should be enough for most companies to achieve product market fit and revenue.If you haven't achieved product market fit and revenue, after using a million minutes of Agora, you may have some underlying other issues that are getting in the way of that. But we really feel that upwards of 80%, even 90% of companies who do achieve and use up the million free minutes, should be at a position of having raised money and are revenue positive.At which time we feel comfortable to say, okay, though, now we do have to, for our business purposes, need to, to work on something and we'll hand them over to sales in a gentle way and work on getting them some discounts and start forecasting future usage and things like that. But those are the nuts and bolts.In our world of real-time video, real-time audio, just the real-time engagement aspect of it. There are certain verticals that are really taking off. I think health is obviously a big one where you have doctors and patients or therapists and their clients. We're seeing a lot in fitness, so for coaches training. Doing big group classes. Education is probably our biggest. I think that's a pretty obvious use case of doing real time lessons with teachers and things. But we're also seeing a lot of activity in the area of gaming where people want talk to each other. They want to be on video with each other while playing games together. Live performances and experiences around online virtual concerts or comedy shows or things like that as well. There's a lot of added context that you can get from engaging in real time, over video. That you couldn't get at an actual conference.You know, there are solutions coming around blending those where you might be at the concert, but you'll also have on your phone different camera angles that are available to a viewer. And you can get other contextual information that is happening plus chats with other people at the concert or something like that.And then, you know, a lot of multi-verse. A lot of VR stuff. I mean, I had a conversation with a startup out of New Zealand who was working in the overcoming therapy space, where if you had a phobia of dogs, you know, a psychologist would work with their client, and they would go to a kennel and slowly start to integrate and learn how to overcome. But now we can do that in a VR environment, but overlay a lot of very interesting artificial intelligence, facial recognition. Stuff like that to really be able to measure the things that are almost imperceptible to the human eye, to understand like the dilation of their pupils when faced with a small dog versus a big dog or different breeds or something, just giving a lot more contextual information to help a psychologist really work with their client to overcome a phobia. So, it's fascinating to work with the startups because they are thinking of use cases that we even within Agora can't think of. The Ewing Marion Kauffman FoundationSponsor Voice: The Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation is a private, nonpartisan foundation based in Kansas City, Missouri, that seeks to build inclusive prosperity through a prepared workforce and entrepreneur-focused economic development. The Foundation uses its $3 billion in assets to change conditions, address root causes, and break down systemic barriers so that all people – regardless of race, gender, or geography – have the opportunity to achieve economic stability, mobility, and prosperity. For more  information, visit www.kauffman.org and connect with us at www.twitter.com/kauffmanfdn and www.facebook.com/kauffmanfdn. Brian Ardinger: Well, and that's an interesting thing because the platform itself is really robust. You can do video calls and voice calls and interactive live streaming and real-time messaging and white boarding. And like you said, the toolkits are there. And I think this fits into one of those trends that we've been talking about, where it's never been easier for a startup founder to find the tools they need. They don't necessarily have to build everything from scratch nowadays. They can find partners and no code, low code tools and things like that to get up and going and testing the marketplace a lot easier than ever before. And get to those use case scenarios that a platform tool provider may not have thought of originally. I'm curious to get your take on some of this accessibility to tools that founders didn't have maybe, you know, 10 years ago when we started in this business. Todd Embley: Yeah, it's amazing. I think back to, I used to be with SOSV was the fund, and we were doing kind of an internal conference for all of our portfolio, all of our mentor network. Everybody that had ever been involved with us, including investors in Agora or LPs. And we had a guy named Dave McClure come and speak. And somebody had asked him is your eight-year-old daughter learning how to code. And he said, let me rephrase that. I think what you're asking me is do I think that it is important for very young people to learn how to code and essentially that's what you're looking for. And he said, you know, coding is like learning any other language, you know, in the development of the brain and how that enables young people to really grow. But it is in his opinion, he said it is just kind of a commodity. He said coding is probably going to become a commodity. And we've seen that in the low-code no-code explosion.And then he thought, you know, design would probably not be that far behind. I mean, there probably will be a day in the future where our phones will know everything they need to know about us, where you won't have to necessarily code or design the UI UX CX, of how an app works and feels. Because it can just deploy to our phone and our phone can tell the app how to develop itself as it lands on our home screen, in the way that we prefer it to be from colors to where the settings are or where our profile lives.And we can navigate that so intuitively. It has been absolutely amazing. And I think, you know, as we go, we've launched our app builder where pretty much anybody, even without any coding experience can go on and within 20 minutes create a video conferencing tool that they can use for their family reunion. You know, that is super easy. So yeah, it's been amazing. Brian Ardinger: It is kind of crazy to think what are the uses. I'd imagine obviously COVID has changed the dynamic landscape for you guys, especially. And so maybe let's talk a little bit about that. Some of the trends you're seeing with the move to more remote and more virtual environments. Todd Embley: Anybody who just watches the stock price of Zoom over the last couple of years would understand exactly where this industry has gone, but then factors like the quote unquote Zoom fatigue. And now we're seeing people that want to have more control over the layout and the design and the backgrounds and the information and the chats and emojis and music and all these other things that you can build into it. Because you know, now for instance, all our conferences went virtual, right? So we are now having to figure out how did you run a web summit or you know, like an East Meets West, that Blue Start-ups does in Hawaii or something. How do we now do this online and create a really great experience where everybody can still try to achieve those same outcomes for why they attended in the first place. It's been a pretty amazing growth that has really kind of pushed the boundaries.The work from home, I think has been the biggest thing where everybody's now at home. So, there's working with colleagues. There is collection of data. There is monitoring output and outcomes. And, you know, as a department or as a salesperson or marketing has changed. How do we do now market to people who aren't leaving their homes anymore that has now all changed.It's been such a game changer just in the future of work. I wouldn't say it necessarily changed course, but COVID has absolutely accelerated what we were already starting to think it would be. You know, it's done some damage to the world of coworking spaces, right. Or in-person accelerators or incubators. It's changed how we, even as a startup team go out and find partners and find startups to introduce them to Agora. So, it's had a tremendous impact. Brian Ardinger: You spent a lot of time ecosystem building for lack of a better term. You know, you go to different communities and see what the landscape is in the startup world. And then again, try to help founders navigate that. So, what are you seeing when you travel around to different startup communities and that. What's maybe different than it was five or six years ago? Todd Embley: There's a lot of factors. Entrepreneurship and startup land, as we know it, just even in the last 20 years, let's say since the .com boom and bust. And then, you know, Paul Graham kind of the Godfather of the accelerator starts Y Combinator in 2005. And so, the way investors started investing, and then there was, you know, a lot of information and then Crunchbase and others started coming around. And then, then we had 10 years of data from Crunchbase, somewhere around 2013. That we're now measuring how well people were investing, how well-performing that whole venture financial class was doing.And we've seen things where investors are now looking more at timing of solutions versus not just team and problem, but they had so many investments that were either too early, too late. And they started to recognize that. A lot of funds are starting to look internally and seeing, trying to reinvest inside the value that they've created to capture more of the food on the table versus being so outwardly focused. For our jobs, even in doing ecosystem development, how to startups find us versus how do we find them? If there's no meetups. If we're not able to do in-person startup weekends, then how are we able to find them, to attract them, to support them and to help them. How are investors doing their due diligence? You know, things like DocSend. Right.Having that digital data room with a lot of analytics built into it. So that founders can now not only see who's entering and who's looking at their due diligence documents at, but where in the deck are they spending time? On what slides, what is important? Where are they stopping? Where are they looking at? There's a lot of data and information that they can measure from that as well. I'm not exactly sure if that answers the question, but it is so drastically different. And now we're going back into, you know, web summit is in-person. I'm going to be going to that next week after we record this. That is going to be a different experience as well. And then there's the hybrids that are kind of doing both. It's changed a lot. Brian Ardinger: It is definitely interesting. You know, it's always been hard to find startup founders. A lot of times they're heads down doing their thing. You know, over the last five or six years pre COVID, you started to have a different environment where things like coworking spaces and events like Startup Weekend and that, started to bring some of those folks out and started to get some energy. And then COVID kind of slap that in the face to a certain extent. But now what I'm seeing at least is more collaboration across different communities. So even though I'm based in Lincoln, Nebraska, the network and our reach to different communities for the startups in our backyard, has increased and been beneficial from the standpoint of they're no longer having to be in the middle of flyover country. They can access folks that wouldn't necessarily in the past look outside of their own Sandhill Road area. So, I guess there's pros and cons to this new environment, but I was curious to get your take on that as well. Todd Embley: Constraints, breed Innovation. And COVID has drastically brought a whole new set of constraints just by not being able to meet in person as much. So, I think it's the development and the investment in developing a different skill set. You know, you take one sense away, the other senses improve. And so, we've had to become better at being able to build relationships. And we have video. And we have voice. But suddenly we're tuning in to the video and tuning into the voice. We may not have the same social cues and we may not have the same physical cues to be picking up on things. We used to train entrepreneurs on how to pitch in person. You were on a stage facing an audience. You were standing in front of an investor at a meetup. Here's how you do it. Here's how you talk. Here's how you hold yourself. Be careful of your hands. Don't shift your feet around. You know, there is all these, you know, all this kind of training, which has had to change. Which has had to develop. And now we're reaching out, we're developing partnerships and I think I've seen a lot of ecosystems lean in on having silos or verticals that they're starting to own to be seen as a place.And accelerators are now going virtual, where they're pulling from anywhere. Right. We have a focus. We're vertically focused. And so even if you're in Brazil or you're in Russia or wherever, this is the accelerator that you want to join because the world has just been absolutely flattened. And now this is the best place. This is the best accelerator, and you don't have to fly in and live here. Right? So now you've seen costs of living. People are moving out of the main centers. It's just, it's been a tremendous change. Brian Ardinger: You've spent your life helping founders. And I'd love to get your input on for our founders that are listening to this show. Some of the biggest obstacles or barriers or things that you've seen or can help them overcome. Are there particular tips or tricks that founders should be paying attention to nowadays?Todd Embley: I still think it all starts with the problem. And I still find myself having to talk about deep diving into the problem discussion. And there has been a penchant for the snapshot. And of the landscape as it is today. But I think what we're starting to understand. And what I'm seeing from a lot of questions that come from investors, is it's not as much about what. It's about why. And when you're pitching or talking about what you're doing, you have to start layering in the why.This is our go to market strategy. Great. Doesn't really matter, but why did you choose that? They're being measured on the way they think. The way they process. The way they built. What data did you take in. Which did you keep? And which did you throw away and why? And then what decision and strategy did you make off of that data?And why did you decide to strategize that? Why are you deciding to build this next? Why is this the next iteration of what you're doing, this problem that you're trying to solve? Anybody can Google and get a lot of data on a problem that exists today. But do you have a deep understanding of how we got here? You know, we have this Canadian kind of saying of the Wayne Gretzky, don't go where the puck is, go, where the puck is going to be.And as investors, we're always trying to find the entrepreneurs who are good at figuring out where the puck is going to be. But the only way that they can figure that out, isn't understanding just where the puck is, but how the puck got to where it is. Because only then do we understand the speed and the trajectory and are able to extrapolate off of that to know where it's going with some reasonable degree of accuracy. But we'll never get it right. But that I think is always be factoring in your why. Nobody is going to be blown away by your what because you're still early stage. Unless you have a hundred thousand downloads or a million MRR, you know, it's just not that impressive. Because the only thing that matters is what people use and pay for.So, knowing that. Now, we're just trying to measure size you up as a founder. So lean in on all your why of everything that you're talking about so that they can understand how you develop, how you price, how you see the world. Be unique, be different. For More InformationBrian Ardinger: Solid advice. Well, Todd, I want to thank you for coming on Inside Outside Innovation and sharing your insights and your experiences from the many years of being in the trenches there. I want to encourage people to check out Agora and that. If people want to find out more about yourself or about the startup program at Agora, what's the best way to do that? Todd Embley: Yeah. I mean, if they want to connect with me, LinkedIn is great. Just Todd Embley. I will generally show up. That's a great way to do it. And I'd love to connect. And I love to meet with everybody. And then agora.io/startups is where the entrance to the startup program lives. But Agora.io is where most of the information about Agora lives. And we're happy to talk to anybody, especially partners. Anybody doing events. Anything out there. We'd love to be a part of it. We'd love to sponsor. And try to add value. Brian Ardinger: Well Todd, thanks again for coming on the show. It's great to see you again and look forward to continuing the conversation in the years to come. Todd Embley: Thanks, Brian. It's been great.Brian Ardinger: That's it for another episode of Inside Outside Innovation. If you want to learn more about our team, our content, our services, check out InsideOutside.io or follow us on Twitter @theIOpodcast or @Ardinger. Until next time, go out and innovate.FREE INNOVATION NEWSLETTER & TOOLSGet the latest episodes of the Inside Outside Innovation podcast, in addition to thought leadership in the form of blogs, innovation resources, videos, and invitations to exclusive events. SUBSCRIBE HEREYou can also search every Inside Outside Innovation Podcast by Topic and Company.  For more innovations resources, check out IO's Innovation Article Database, Innovation Tools Database, Innovation Book Database, and Innovation Video Database.  

EP280 - Anker Innovations Head of Global Communications Eric Villines Eric Villines is the Global Head of Communications for Anker Innovations. Anker is one of the most successful brands to be started on the Amazon platform. In this broad ranging interview, we discuss the origin story of Anker, their evolution from early Amazon FBA seller to Global Omni-channel brand. Eric covers their incubator, Anker Innovation, and their Amazon FBA consulting service OceanWing. We also discuss his recent book, Get Funded!: The Startup Entrepreneur's Guide to Seriously Successful Fundraising. Episode 280 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded on Wednesday. November 17th, 2021. http://jasonandscot.com Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of GetSpiffy and Co-Founder of ChannelAdvisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing. Transcript Jason: [0:00] Welcome to the Jason and Scot show this is episode 280 being recorded on Wednesday November 17th 2021 I'm your host Jason retailgeek Goldberg and as usual I'm here with your co-host Scot Wingo. Scot: [0:15] Hey Jason and welcome back Jason Scott show listeners Jason is a fellow Gadget addict one of our favorite brands that we love from consumer perspective is Anchor and then we also spend a lot of time here on the show talking about anchor because it's a very interesting brand that is one of the few that we call kind of digitally native Amazon born so today on the show we are very excited to welcome Eric villines he is the head of Global Communications at anchor and is based out of Sunny Seattle Eric welcome to the show. Eric: [0:50] Thanks for having me we've also been having about two months of rain so we're living up to our our cliche. Jason: [0:59] That for the last two months that might have sounded bad but being here in Chicago I have a feeling that rain is about to start looking pretty good to me. Eric: [1:07] Yeah means known cold and wind. Jason: [1:09] Exactly all of the above although it's been pretty mild so far. Eric before we jump into all the anchor discussions we always like to get sort of a brief background about our guests and maybe you could tell us what your role is an anchor. Eric: [1:25] Sure so I run Global Communications at anchor Innovations which is essentially a fancy way of saying public relations. Which in time it's sort of corporate Communications you could be crisis Corporate social responsibility and then obviously the most exciting part of what I do which would be product PR dealing with the media on reviews and, I'm getting the word out of on the cool gadgets we. Jason: [1:51] That's awesome so does that mean you have one of everything. Eric: [1:55] I have two of everything. It's a funny story I've worked in consumer electronics for a long time and I remember Steven Yang who hired me personally for the role, I remember I was in China and I said I want to make sure that I've got budget to give everyone on my team, you know one of the products and he giggled and I'm absolutely serious, we all have to you know live it and breathe it and love it and know the good and the bad aspects of all of our products because we're talking with the media all the time so I kind of. I'm kind of insistent that everyone on my team has the products and then the other part is we all we can never run out of battery that's like that's like a major faux pas here, if I ever hear the words even coming out of my own mouth that my phone is almost out of juice that's super bad as a charging company. Jason: [2:45] That does seem off brand I am I have a little bit of a fetish for your products and the thing I've noticed is every time I have a family gathering I get completely cleaned out. Eric: [2:57] Oh yeah there is. Jason: [2:58] So I yeah I didn't realize you were in such a replenishment category but it's ended up being one for me. Eric: [3:04] It's funny because I started out an entertainment before I came into consumer electronics and one of the first things I did here because I'm just using my own family Dynamics as I have three children. And my wife of course is involved in this as well and we steal each other's cables constantly and then we lie to each other, about you know and it's gotten so bad that people take you know colored Sharpies and all sorts of things but we had done a survey, on you know what are some of the most irritating things that happen in the family and this came in like is a top four. People stealing each other's charging components and then lying about it so it's a national issue that we just haven't spent enough time talking about. Jason: [3:48] Yeah we'll have to dedicate a whole nother show to solving that problem one last product related question do you have a favorite anchor products. Eric: [3:57] Well gosh I so we have these new cables that you said fetish I don't want to take it too far but it's. It's the material that's made out of is reminds me of certain things and that Dominion but it's a super soft latex like, cable that seems to never because of the material it seems to never not up. And that's one of my favorite things and they come in all these super cool colors and that's really new for us we've always offered two colors a beautiful white and the Beautiful Black Version, and so this year we started getting into more colors and that's been really exciting because that's a really easy way to distinguish your product from say your son's because you can have different colors but the material it's really nice I keep them in my bag I've got him for all my products. Those are really cool we launched a new line of Mag go products which we have a desk version which allows you to, put your phone against and it'll you know magnetically charged it but the battery is removable so you can actually bring it with you, so it serves two purposes and I keep that like in the kitchen so when I'm cooking and I have my recipes but then I can grab it and go. So those are really cool but I mean man we launch new products every day so you ask me next week I'm going to tell you something completely different. Scot: [5:23] Yeah this is an unsolicited but my favorite is there's a little Hub you guys have for the Macbook so I can just plug in one USB C and I've got this thing I'm looking at it now it looks like a mutated octopus with with 800 things, poking out of it that I no longer have to plug into my MacBook so you're you're saving me a lot of ports which I really appreciate. Eric: [5:40] Yeah as they move to usb-c only but you still had a myriad of other things you needed to connect to it. Scot: [5:47] Yeah well now the magsafe is a now they're back yeah they decided they're giving you guys too much Martin said so now they now they have like they're like oh man when you need to add more stuff you know. Eric: [5:57] Well I've talked to a lot of pro users and they're really excited to see the HDMI cable come back it's just a you know it's a strong connection that cables is still different. And sometimes it's a huge hassle putting a hub attached to the computer and then attaching your HDMI cable and everything else to it. Scot: [6:16] Yeah absolutely especially when you're traveling and you're popping into someone else's conference room you'd never have that one little cable, so we obviously we talked a lot about anchor on the show and we can just kind of stopped fan blowing on the on the user side would love to hear kind of your view of the founding story of anchor, you know we kind of classify it as you heard is this kind of like Amazon born would love to know how you guys tell that story. Eric: [6:43] Yeah I mean it's you know I had relatives that move during the Dust Bowl and move to Pasadena and built. You know a chain of gas stations and it's this true Americana story but he what's interesting is I think Steven Yang story is very similar it is that that's story of an idea and perseverance and building and Global brand that. People have in their purses and backpacks even if they don't know it's anchor there's a strong probability that it is and that's that's one is exciting the others a branding dilemma. But Stephen was a senior engineer in California at Google and he had he was trying to find a new battery for his Toshiba laptop. [7:32] And as he was looking online including Amazon and the Toshiba websites he realized he had sort of two choices you either going to buy the one from Toshiba that was super expensive, for take a chance, on all of these other versions white-label versions and unknown brands on Amazon and and purchase one from their sort of buyer beware. And he kind of had a light bulb moment and thought you know this is this is ridiculous like who are the people that are putting these online how they've been tested how can I know that, what I'm buying is going to work with my laptop and you know give me a year of battery life. Long story short he moved back to China with his wife who was then his fiance he took a small loan from his mom. And he started anchor and in the beginning what Stephen did was go around to different factories and and Developers, and with his engineers and they went and tested all these batteries so in the beginning it was a white label play was him finding and filtering through. [8:38] I'll just say it a lot of garbage and trying to find the absolute best, alternatives to all of these laptop batteries and they started selling those through Amazon and that was the first point was the easiest place for them and selling specifically and exclusively to the United States. A year later it was a massive success beyond anything that he had ever imagined, and the next logical step was to take that concept and move it into mobility and start looking at mobile phones and chargers and portable batteries and all these things that were at the time, really starting to come out but the big difference when he went into Mobility is the idea was we need to get as fast out of, the white labeling as we can because we have some ideas that even these these smaller factories and people that were producing, can are doing that we can find ways to make it better, so that sort of unearth the world of you know contract manufacturing where they're Engineers were developing and designing, you know the specifics and then Contracting manufacturers to develop those products and the rest as they say is history. Ironically today we are celebrating our 10-year anniversary actually last month. [9:58] And that's a pretty big deal so we went from a guy and his wife. And a little mama money from his mom to a you know a multibillion-dollar company. With multiple Brands and over 3,000 employees all around the world. So in addition to charging which is still a huge huge part of our, DNA we've developed a number of Brands subsequently over the last three to four years everything from robotic vacuums and future robotic products, to home security high-end true wireless headsets. Smart Home Entertainment pet products baby socks I mean like you know smart baby socks I mean just like the whole gamut. [10:45] And the sort of the common line through all of this is that Steven and his team are constantly looking for areas within an emerging or establish consumer electronics area where they can bring value. And you know usually we might come in and the play might be okay we're going to come up with a really great product that's going to be, a little lower cost and that gets our foothold and then the the long-term strategy is then to LeapFrog over the competitors with something truly innovative. And this is kind of a phenomenon that's worked really really well. For Stephen and his engineers and the marketing teams and all of our sales people around the world. Scot: [11:28] Did he have an industrial design background hurry just had the pain and kind of cheeses and created the company from there. Eric: [11:37] Well he's a Hitman he's a True Blood engineer so I mean he's he's right at that right at the hardware level and into coding and all of that so the industrial design. Was not his core competency so bringing in people that that could fill in, those areas and ultimately well they say 10 years later we brought color right but of course then we had great devices that worked really well but we're but when we look at industrial design, I would say that you know that's what's going to propel us over the next 10 years with with the Thinker charging. Scot: [12:14] Yeah it's been the you know I really like kind of the functional but still kind of modern kind of vibe you guys have with your products it's really nice is he still with the company is you still still involved. Eric: [12:27] Yeah yeah I mean I talked to him regularly he is very approachable. It's interesting because he shares his office with two other people at the company and it's kind of this kitchen table set up he doesn't have a private office, because there's so much collaboration and you look around the company we're all like that even though I'm in Seattle, and in my office I do the same thing with my team we just take some long tables and we connect them up and everyone just sits on them because it's like jazz we're just constantly. You know coming up with ideas and talking and it's just more efficient. Jason: [13:06] I do want a Lobby by the way I feel like you have some cool colors now you have like a like a lavender and a mint but what you really need is like a retailgeek blue I think would be. Eric: [13:18] Retailgeek blue yeah. Jason: [13:20] Yeah I could send you the PMS colors at that. Eric: [13:22] Okay yeah send me the Pantone colors yeah the, yeah I mean we I would think the colors are sort of muted so they're they're a joke they don't offend anyone so they're not they're not super striking their kind of muted across the color spectrum but so far they've been. They've been received really really well there's there's an old joke and consumer electronics that people are always screaming for color. And then when you look at the sales and you find it's the white and black that sell the most. So it's like you need to have the color but in the end most people end up choosing the the kind of safer black and white. Jason: [14:05] Yeah now I actually I'll be honest the style of the colors fine and actually think they are attractive kind of pastel colors but the it's just nice to have a diversity because I actually have a system like I have one color for my USBC cables. Eric: [14:19] Mmm. Jason: [14:20] One color for my lightning cables so that I can you know quickly distinguish them in my back. Eric: [14:24] You're not messing around man. Jason: [14:27] I have a little I have a problem. So I it's funny in the early days of these kind of digitally native direct to Consumer Brands there used to be this religious battle there were companies that were like. And the path to the customer through Amazon we're going to sell this stuff on Amazon and I would characterize anchor as the poster child for the most successful brand that was born. By primarily making themselves available on Amazon and selling through Amazon's traffic. But for every company like that there was another company that's like that's crazy Amazon is going to steal your customer and knock you off and they're all these you know potential, downfalls to Amazon and you know we should own the customer ourselves and we should have our own website and so increasingly that became the Shopify contingency and so it used to be, you know a company was either an Amazon company or a Shopify company. And more recently I feel like the increasingly the answer is not or it's and that. You know the consumers on Amazon so you need to be on Amazon but you also do have consumers that want to buy direct and you should have your own website and. My proof point for that is I want to say in the last year or so anchor has launched its own Shopify site so I now can shop anchor on Amazon but also on your own direct website is that like. [15:54] Like you got did you guys have debates and conversations about that and was that a very overt decision or is it just something where you just swept up a Shopify side at some point and you really still think of yourself as an Amazon only company. Eric: [16:07] Well there's a lot to unpack I'm going to I'm going to try to I'm going to try to find the question in that statement, the first of all we started definitely start on Amazon and one of the things I would argue about Amazon is that it is direct, so whether you're selling on your website you know or you're selling on Amazon you're ultimately. [16:29] Selling direct through the Amazon platform and you're engaging with your customers and your you know you're dealing with customer service and all the things you would normally do so I think Amazon has been a great partner and it is it continues to be definitely a big part of our DNA. But as we evolved into different regions around the world you know that there are different channels, that in our sort of different stages of development but the omni-channel approach meaning, you know in our case Amazon which is always a big part of us our own website which is great for Branding and direct connection and through our Retail Partners because in the United States were sold everywhere we're sold at you know Best Buy Walmart Target, Etc you can go to medium art overseas, so we don't see ourselves as just a single Channel we definitely are see ourselves is an omni-channel but I think you know Amazon is provide us an incredible platform to launch on, the ability the ability I think for a person that has a great product looking to sell something and any part of the world where Amazon is is so convenient and so easy. [17:41] And you know the financial Commitment if you're just starting out and you're Distributing your products the platform has evolved its improved. And it's ultimately pretty easy to get going on the platform without you know a tremendous amount of financial backing. Jason: [18:02] Yep and it is interesting because you have you know been a heavy practitioner on the platform from the early days in it does feel like it's evolved a lot. From your guys's perspective do you still feel like there's a. Competitive advantage in knowing the platform better than other sellers like it feels like there's a lot of levers to pull now and I mean you know different companies with different levels of sophistication in their Amazon presents. Why does everybody learning all the best practices now and they're sort of parody or do you feel like you guys can still kind of win more than your fair share of eyeballs on Amazon. Eric: [18:38] I mean we we've been doing this for you know for 10 years now and so they're the they're the tools and there's the Instinct and then there's the the lessons learned from the billions of mistakes that we've made, along the way and I don't know those things are those things are harder to I think grass for people that are just coming into the space so I think we absolutely have an advantage, but you know I mean I think it's not magic it takes a lot of work and a lot of patience, and a lot of observation, you know if you're putting a listing on Amazon and you're putting that listing in Italy or France or the UK or whatever, you know simply Translating that listing into the local language is just the bare minimum I mean you're dealing with customer service and being able to communicate. With customers being able to deliver products on time being able to answer their questions be able to take returns and then that's you know even before you've really thought about marketing because there are. [19:44] Something like nine million sellers on Amazon right now and that is a huge ocean, just filled and filled with Fish And you are you're battling against the the those eyeballs every day. Organic search or even direct search you're going to you know if you go up and look for toothpaste I mean you know, in the search engine you're going to see a myriad of players in there including you know ones that are common Brands to others that seem interesting and what's going to draw the eyeball away from the common brand that everyone knows too, the new brand what's going to make the consumer just try and reach out a discover you and take that extra effort so everyone going on to any platform, that may deal with a bunch of Brands is dealing with you know millions of competitors and it stopped. [20:39] I think getting set up on the platform and getting started is easy but that's that's you know that's step one, but then you got to get people seeing your listings and you got to get people reading your listings and you got to get people putting stuff in their shopping cart and clicking the shopping cart and, fulfilling and then you know being there at the end of that process to give them great customer service in every language, where you're selling that product because if you can't do that and that last part is critical, you're going to get bad reviews and people don't buy products with two and sometimes even three star ratings when you're dealing with you know consumer electronics they're looking for four and five. So you could have the greatest product in the world but you could have a lot of mad consumers out there where you haven't done right by them and they're not going to give you some great star ratings and you can pretty much. You know kiss your Prosperity goodbye. Jason: [21:33] Yeah I sometimes describe it as a. A darwinian meritocracy that like you know if you think about old school if you sell a product to Walmart and they give you shelf space and you screw up and run out of stock, you lose all the sales while you're out of stock but the day you restock your back on the Shelf your kind of entitled to that that shelf position. The duration of a program but you have to earn that visibility in the front of the Amazon shelf what every minute through a wide variety of best practices and if you screw up, you fall off that shelf and when you get back in stock you don't get your spot back you got to climb back up the hill. Eric: [22:10] Yeah yeah I mean especially now in today's climate there's a lot of. Material shortages and other things and that's been you know super painful for four people across every, line of business not just consumer electronics and that very same thing you know you're working hard to develop customer base and then, you don't have the materials to produce the products or the factories that you're working with and then you can't fulfill you been all this great marketing you brought everyone to your front door and then, grab we don't have any products, and that's it's painful to see for especially you know entrepreneurs and people new to the game because they have brilliant ideas and great products and. You know they've done an amazing job building word-of-mouth and it's super sad to see that fail at that last step. Jason: [23:03] For sure that actually is a great segue we're recording this in mid-november double 11 day just happened Black Friday is next week. As we sit here I think there's something like ninety one container ships off the coast of Long Beach either a bunch of cool new anchor products like trapped in those boats what's holiday looking like for you are you guys well well stocked and well positioned. Eric: [23:30] I think we are with some things and we could be better and other things I mean again we have the advantage of having a lot of skus so we I would say it's easier for us, to adapt, then than others and you know I can say from my perspective if I go out on a media to and September and I show a lot of really cool gadgets. And then we reach the end of October and I'm like well crap so that isn't coming we're going to we're going to delay that because of something it is what it is what we're used to it. But we have so many skus that you know we were Prime day or Black Friday or Cyber Monday or just basic Christmas shopping or Hanukkah shopping we've got something, so we can adapt it will get past it. Jason: [24:23] Yeah speaking of which I given that you're in the consumer at Rackspace is CES ordinarily a big part of your marketing mix. Eric: [24:32] I would say it is I think in the new world order it isn't as important for us. But we you know we've done Big Boost and we've done stuff and you know our sales teams of gone out there I think it's wait and see. This January we've done some some interviews with with media and I think we found that maybe forty percent of those that normally attend are coming, the rest are waiting and seeing we didn't do a booth this year I've also heard from our sales team that their counterparts at some of the retailers may not be coming in January as well. So I don't know is it going to be like a bad prom or nobody dances. I think we're going to have to wait and see I think maybe for many it's going to be a real last minute decision. Jason: [25:25] Yeah it's interesting I've attended like 28 CES has and I'm not going and, talking which I used to catch a flu at CES every single year so it's the I'm not care. I think Tom Clancy wrote a book where like the terrorist likes bedspread the biological Weapon by disseminating it at CES just for. Eric: [25:47] Perfect yeah I think it's you know I think people I think you have to have a vaccination card this time around to get in I think that's what I've heard but yeah I mean from point A to Z you know your. There's a lot of airplanes. Jason: [26:02] I'm kind of curious I think less people are going to but then the magic question is. Does that kind of will they discover that the world didn't end when they didn't go and put your point like does that accelerate the changing World Order and CES becomes less important or you know is this just going to be a down year and next year they'll be back to normal I think, that's going to be interesting to watch. Eric: [26:22] Yeah I mean there's CS is just the beginning you've got Mobile World Congress you've got aoife you've got you know as we move into next year and all of them are going to have to be making those tough decisions. And then I think that the repercussions of companies that didn't go in the world didn't sink either going to be wondering you know what are these what's the value of these trade shows. To us as a business you know I think for us they're valuable you know on the one end of the communication Spectrum it's super beneficial to scale our pitching by having an enormous number of people from all around the world in ones. But it's also very noisy so you know you're competing with a lot of large names. And we've always been very Scrappy so we tend to do a lot of are moving and communication before CES. And after CES or even entirely outside of the you know the wake of any of these trade shows. So and that's that's generally how we've been successful. Scot: [27:27] Brickell any other interesting holiday Trends or anything you guys noticed as we've kind of gone through covid and or kind of hopefully coming out the back side. Eric: [27:37] Yeah I mean I you know not to sound boring but charging is always a big thing during the holidays people bought their new iPhones people are buying new MacBooks people are buying peripherals. And you know around that time usually you know a couple of weeks later when they lost their cables already or you know they realize they won't one for travel and they wanted to stay home and they want one in their home office and they want one in the kitchen, so it's always a good time for us in that category, so charging definitely the other big part of our business right now is audio so our sound Core Audio brand, we develop a super popular line of true wireless headphones the Liberty series, and one of the things that makes it unique is we work with a bunch of grammy award-winning Engineers to help us tune them, so they would come out of the box sounding like the mix that the engineers originally in planned versus over based or over traveled, that's been really really popular for us all around the world I mean as far as India hugely popular in the United States the UK Germany, Emerging Markets that's a big thing and then I'd say home security that's been a big a big Boon for us we launched our home security brand yuffie about three years ago. [28:59] And you know we're developing a lot of unique products in that space that separate us from the rest for one we don't we don't use the cloud when you buy the product at your. [29:12] All of the footage is captured on a secure SD card that's integrated either into the base station or the independent products that you put outside the house. Which is really cool and we have millions of users around the world right now, using that product because they see it not only is protecting your security but also their privacy. [29:32] You'll see a lot of people do personal gifts to themselves during the holiday so a lot of those those big, tend to be you know people in a house saying hey how about we get this for ourselves for Christmas, and and we recently launched a super-smart robotic vacuum called the X8 it's are you fee robotic vacuum. That's super smart so instead of bumping into walls and trying to figure things out at uses both Visual and Laser mapping. And will actually draw up a map of your house that you can look at on your phone, and see it's how it's found the most ingenious way of cleaning around chairs and couches and other things and making sure that it can do everything and then you can create zones, I didn't say well I just want to let stay away from the baby room because the baby's sleeping but you can clean this Zone and that zone and this Zone. That's been really popular and we had been doing kind of lower in robotic vacuums until that point. Entry level and this was one of our first push and super-premium summarize forleo some but that LeapFrog, so in the beginning we might find Our Place coming in as as a lower-cost alternative that still is super quality, and then with the X8 we're doing the LeapFrog moment and trying to jump past the competition with the technology. Scot: [30:59] Frankel, so one of the things we want to do is Pivot you guys have some other innovations that are not gadgets or charging or anything like that, you guys launched a new division that both Jason and I were excited to learn more about called ocean wing. My guess was it was drones but I think that's wrong tell you tell us more about what ocean when you. Eric: [31:24] Yeah so I say first with the title but when I first started working with anchor Innovations in the United States over four years now, I was actually working for ocean Lee that was our that was how we presented our Corporation, and the the story is that it was ocean Wing to essentially take our technology and fly across the Pacific or Atlantic Ocean and bring it to the United States. So when the idea came up of developing a Consulting business, under anchor Innovations the ocean Wing name came up again and simple it's actually makes a hell of a lot more sense for this than it may have Hazard LLC in the United States when we were bringing anchored to the United States. [32:14] But long story short we established in 2019 so we've been around awhile we have about 200 employees around the world. And the long and the short of it is that we're trying to take the the decade of experience that we've developed. Again with all those mistakes along the way to become you know the 7 billion dollar, consumer electronics company and give people an option to improve their business lines, so that's from the beginning to the end of the process and what we're looking for is companies that have already gone in and let's just say made their first 10 million, and they've hit a wall. [32:55] Because they haven't been able to expand the business or scale either through supply chain issues through fulfillment customer service maybe the advertising has become, complicated and convoluted because they've developed so many skus there's just so many problems that when someone reaches a certain point and they want to get to that next 10 or 20 million dollars when they're doing business, it's a different skill set, you know what they've done is worked it to a certain point and they is try as they might they can't get past that threshold and that's where we come in, so we're developing essential overall Amazon selling and operations processes that could be digital marketing marketing insights, advertising management helping them develop their Brand store and their product pages to customer service and relationship management which I mentioned earlier is. Reticle to get those star ratings in a good place through good authentic communication with your customers in a great experience with the products. [33:59] Obviously e-commerce and all the financial systems, and then what we're dealing with a lot these days is supply chain and Logistics management so you get yourself to a certain point and there's a lot of people that are coming to us and that is the area, where they're really hurting the most and they need help they need help developing new contacts new supply chain partners, for how do I deal with the issue if you're dealing with something that might spoil like we're dealing with a company that, deals in collagen and when something spits on one of those tankers out in the middle of the ocean for too long when it arrives in the warehouse, it's past its fresh state so you've just lost all that inventory so each client is unique, but with this kind of broad scope of things that we can help them with and we can help audit the business and hopefully help them transcend whatever's keeping them from moving to that next 10 and 20 and 30 million dollars. Jason: [34:59] Very interesting so going back to our earlier conversation this is sort of a way for other young young Brands to leverage all the expertise and skills you guys have have built-in staying on top of this ecosystem. Eric: [35:14] Exactly it's an opportunity for us to take what we've learned and apply it to that young brand I couldn't have said it better myself. Jason: [35:22] Yeah and it at this point is ocean Wing primarily focused with Amazon distribution or would they also leverage all the other distribution channels that you guys have expanded into. Eric: [35:36] Yeah I mean I think I think our sweet spot is definitely FBA so specifically Amazon. That is not to say that we can't help them with other things like supply chain and Logistics but for us, it's a recipe and you know where we've had our success with the clients have come in or people that have been focused on Amazon and then we can kind of look at what they're doing and we can evolve the recipe a little bit, and and get it all the ingredients in place and help them be successful because they all work together, so but I would say Amazon is definitely our primary focus right now at least dealing with businesses that are on Amazon that isn't to say that these businesses are you solely focused Amazon because they're not but Amazon is a key Channel especially if they're going globally and that's where we come in. Jason: [36:31] Got it and obviously over the last year there's kind of been a lot of Buzz around these I'll call them FB a roll ups where you know these, these companies have raised a bunch of money and they go out and acquire Brands and aggregate them and try to help them with their Amazon presents and we you know we've followed thrash Co and perch and, and all of those is, is this kind of your version of that do you see your value prop being different than those other companies or is it just that you have. Sort of more experience and and product scale than some of these companies. Eric: [37:05] How to say this without sounding like it like it's not a jerk but the again we this is what we do, this is how we built our business so we can take. The lessons learned the hard ones too and we can apply it to our clients and I think that alone is super unique that we're a company that's already done this and you know in spades, and now we can apply those learnings to irregular company the other part of it is that most consultancies are focused on Consulting, and but we're a consultant that actually you know rolls up our sleeves and gets into the nitty-gritty of the business and helps and and and that's really depending on the level of the contract or the engagement but you're not only dealing company that can come in and, say some pretty words and show you a powerpoint of what you should be doing, but you know we've already done it and we can roll up our sleeves and get deep in there with you and help you do it or do it. And then that last part in terms of supply chain and and Logistics and you know dealing with manufacturers around the world or suppliers and stuff I think that's a definitely a secret sauce because of our relationships. In China and around the world that we can bring to bear that others can't. Scot: [38:23] So I'd be remiss as the entrepreneur on the show if I noticed in your bio on LinkedIn you have written a book and it's very much in my wheelhouse it's called get funded the startup entrepreneurs guide to seriously successful fundraising I wish I'd had this 20 years ago but I'm glad it exists now tell us tell us about this book and how it came to be. Eric: [38:46] Well my writing partner John Biggs is a little bit of a media icon we've known each other for I think I took them on a media tour maybe 12 13 years ago and. [38:58] We just became very good friends and our families have subsequently traveled the world with each other and we just kind of dig each other and we both have the same kind of sense of humor and sensibilities. [39:10] A couple of years ago he reached out to me that he had been approached by McGraw-Hill to write this book, and thought that I could help provide sort of the second part of the book so the book is broken out into two parts one is is about financing but written in such a way that whether you're trying to develop a taco truck, or you know a retail store or something else what are the different options out there from let's say SBA Loans to even using cryptocurrency, 22 you know set up fundraising all the way down to the meetings and how you value the company how do you pitch people, how do you put presentations together, so very very very this is not this is for the person that was really starting out with very limited knowledge, on the fundraising process and how do you present yourself at the end of the day so John really focus more on the fundraising side and I focus more on the presentation skills, how to pitch how to talk how to prepare how to answer questions the technical aspects of doing a presentation when everything goes wrong. Obviously if I could if I could rewrite a whole section on this now since the book was published last year in September I probably be a whole section on how to pitch during covid because that was. [40:35] That was definitely not it was not a reality when we were writing the book but it was definitely a reality by the time the book was published and I hope and we've heard, the people the industry has adapted that investors and seed funders and people are hard at work and investing but, for the person that might not have the background in this I still think the book for evaluating your company, getting all your ducks in a row building your presentations and how to pitch is still very valuable. Scot: [41:12] Very cool yet this kind of books I think they're kind of Evergreen and it's kind of a little snowball kind of effort so be patient it'll it'll catch up. Jason: [41:22] I am curious it does feel like there's a little bit of a disruption in the fundraising World why you know there for a long time there's this kind of traditional VC path, and obviously there's still a lot of money that flows through that path but I feel like the the role of Angel Investors and sort of other untraditional fundraising. Is becoming more common than it used to be like you guys try to cover that those kind of approaches in the book as well or is it mostly focused on on moving through Sandhill Road. Eric: [41:52] Well it's we wanted it in some ways to be the antithesis of Silicon Valley so for those people that are going down that road you know inevitably they're going to partner up. Let's say at the app generation. They're going to partner up and kind of go down that road our book really tries to focus everything from the pros and cons of using your own credit card friends and family, crowdfunding as I said SBA Loans if you're a minority or women owned business looking at options they're looking at. Prices and options like through FedEx has a great program for entrepreneurs and trying to cover the whole gamut, so we could make fundraising more reasonable and open to the entrepreneur is opposed to. Yeah the tech bro going to Silicon Valley and looking for for someone's bill. Scot: [42:45] Awesome I had one follow-up on Ocean we just took kind of clarify it for listeners you guys are your kind of more in the agency side of things you're not going out there and finding, new brands that are also born on Amazon and acquiring of in kind of rolling them up like the thrashes of the world is do I have that right. Eric: [43:04] We're talking about anchor Innovations right. Scot: [43:07] Yeah the ocean Wing synchronization set. Eric: [43:12] Well on the ocean on the ocean Wing side it's definitely consultative but I mean those things are going to evolve as the business comes in and I don't know if you mean like Financial stakes and the business and stuff but. I mean who knows right if if something came along that looked amazing and a great partnership I'm sure we would consider that. On the anchor Innovation side I think you'll be seeing and you know in the future probably incubator initiatives and things like that, it would be to me it would be a personally exciting to get involved in as seeking out and finding you know exciting. Developers all around the world we tend to be very myopic here and look at the United States as being, where everything's happening and I'd say you know maybe from apps and things like that might be true but when you're looking at Innovation and medicine or innovation and Robotics or innovation and Farm Technology or whatever, you really have to look outside and around the world and you're going to find that Innovation and really unique an unassuming places. So is is if we do get into more ink you know becoming more of a global incubator, I would imagine in our direction would be all over the place and looking in places like India and Africa and you know wherever cool things are being developed. Scot: [44:34] Cool so no almost boundless growth opportunities for you guys it sounds like an exciting time. Jason: [44:44] Well this is certainly going to be a exciting and different holiday season and this is going to be a great place to leave this conversation because it is happen again we've Perfectly Used up our allotted time, But Eric we really appreciate your time and enjoyed hearing about anchoring some of the exciting new initiatives there. Eric: [45:05] Thanks God and thanks Jason. Scot: [45:07] Yeah if anyone wanted to follow you or you are you big on Tick-Tock or I said it's usually or Twitter or LinkedIn or you publish their and then where should they go for some good the latest Anchor Information. Eric: [45:22] Someone can connect with me on LinkedIn my focus to be quite Frank with you as I'm So Married to my work as I tend to focus my communication through work as opposed to myself. I think it's one of those things when you work in Communications you got to be careful about what use you say. So mostly I'm just talking about my company in the things that we do. Jason: [45:49] Awesome well we will put a link to your LinkedIn profile in there and certainly some links to Anchor and until next time happy commercing!

Diabetes sometimes leads to loss of vision. What if there were a simple screening device to find out who is at risk? Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand, a Canadian ophthalmologist and founder of two start-up companies, invented a hand-held device that in minutes measures the eye’s electrical waves to detect patients who may be suffering from diabetic retinopathy. Hildebrand talks about the challenges in moving from academia to the start-up world. “It was hard to get somebody that understood what we were doing to fund the company and run it,” Hildebrand said, “so I drew the short straw.” *This episode is a re-release.* TRANSCRIPT: Intro (00:01): Inventors and their inventions. Welcome to Radio Cade the podcast from the Cade Museum for Creativity and Invention in Gainesville, Florida. The museum is named after James Robert Cade, who invented Gatorade in 1965. My name is Richard Miles. We’ll introduce you to inventors and the things that motivate them, we’ll learn about their personal stories, how their inventions work and how their ideas get from the laboratory to the marketplace. Richard Miles (00:40): An EKG for the eye is helping people with diabetes to keep their eyesight. Welcome to radio Cade, I’m your host, Richard Miles. And today I’m talking to Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand and ophthalmologist and founder of two startup companies. Welcome to Radio Cade, Lloyd. Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (00:53): Thank you very much. It’s good to be here. Richard Miles (00:55): So Lloyd, I got to say you’re the second Canadian I’ve interviewed in the last three days. And our listeners may begin to think I’ve fled to Manitoba, Saskatchewan or somewhere, but I promise from the beginning, no hockey jokes, no references to Molson or any of that nonsense. Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (01:08): Okay. At least it’s not February and 40 below zero. Richard Miles (01:12): Exactly. But I did want to comment on that. Actually, you were born in Canada and you grew up in Brazil. You came back to Canada for medical school, you practice in Iowa for a few years as a physician, then some training in Oklahoma, you worked in Portland, Oregon for a while. And now you’re either in New York or Las Vegas. I can’t remember where you are at the moment. Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (01:30): I’m in Las Vegas now. Richard Miles (01:31): So the obvious question is, are you on the run from the law or sort of what explains your trajectory, give us a snapshot of Lloyd Hildebrand and why it is you in so many different places? Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (01:39): Sure. I was born in Canada and at age four, my family moved to Brazil, Southern Brazil. All my parents were missionaries there. And I lived there till I was age 16. I came back to Canada and finished high school and went to do my undergraduate work in my medical school in Winnipeg at the University of Manitoba. I then went into primary care and was a primary care physician for almost a decade one year in Canada, and then move to council Bluffs, Iowa, where I joined two of the Canadian physicians there in a primary care setting, doing family medicine there, obstetrics. I then went back to training in ophthalmology at the University of Oklahoma in Oklahoma city at the Dean McGee eye Institute, which is a large regional well known academic center and did a fellowship at a family plastic and reconstructive surgery in Portland, Oregon. That was a one year program. And I was recruited back to the University of Oklahoma at that time. And I spent 22 years there on faculty and went through the full academic career there. I retired in 2016 to go to New York and work on an artificial intelligence project. I worked a couple of companies that were working with IBM Watson at the time. And after that project is completed, now I’ve decided to come to Las Vegas, Nevada and I start work on Monday, two days from now. Richard Miles (02:55): You’re quite the traveler. I did note that you’ve actually hit both coasts and the dead center of the United States, Canada and Brazil. So you’ve got the hemisphere pretty well covered. Lloyd, let’s talk about your core idea that you’ve been working on for a while, but I think is fascinating. I think that what we’d like to spend most of our time today talking about, and then later the company or the companies that you have founded to spread those ideas. So let’s start talking about diabetes, which isn’t obviously connected to eyesight for a lot of people, but tell us what is the connection to vision? And then what is the problem that you are trying to solve? Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (03:29): Sure, well, diabetes is the largest growing problem and growing very rapidly at epidemic proportions, diabetes really does a lot of its damage in terms of damaging the end organs, The eye being one of them, the kidney, the heart, and the brain are also organs that can be damaged. It’s usually damaged to the small blood vessel of the eye and that’s called diabetic retinopathy and diabetic retinopathy is actually the leading cause of preventable blindness in working aged Americans. So it’s a major cause of vision loss. The real challenge in diabetic retinopathy is that it’s easily treated. They’re very effective treatments and there’s very, very good research, probably one of the best research diseases in our scientific literature. And yet at the same time, it’s best treated when patients are asymptomatic. So therefore patients with diabetes, there’s a guideline recommendations for them to have an annual examination or evaluation of their retina to see if they have treatable disease. And if you treat the disease, you can prevent the blindness. If they start having symptoms, you can prevent the progression, but it’s very difficult to reverse the vision that they’ve already lost. So therefore the real challenge becomes how do you treat people in a timely way? And the way to do that is to evaluate them regularly and have a reliable test for doing that. The result of the healthcare system though is that only about 40 to 50% of people have that test done on a regular basis. And as a result, a lot of disease go detected until it becomes symptomatic. And they’re behind the eight ball in terms of treatment at that point in time. Richard Miles (05:05): Can you give us a sense of the magnitude of the problem and do you know, what is the percentage say of people who are going to develop diabetic retinopathy? If they’re not checked? I mean, reminds me a little bit of skin cancer or certain forms of skin cancer, right? Where if you detected easy to treat, if you don’t detect it, it’s highly lethal. What are we talking about in terms of those folks who don’t get checked? Are they in big, big trouble? Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (05:27): 80% of people will develop diabetic retinopathy at some point in their lifetime of the disease. And there are certain risk factors that are associated with it. How long you’ve had diabetes, how poorly controlled it is. So the hemoglobin a one C level or the level of blood sugar that you have also it’s associated with a higher risk of patients with high blood pressure and high cholesterol and triglyceride levels. So high lipid levels. So all three of those states combined to increase the risk of the patient in doing this. So the relative risk of people developing vision from this, there were about 40,000 people a year that go blind from diabetic retinopathy. So it’s significant and there’s a much larger group of people that then have what we call moderate vision loss and moderate vision loss. Wouldn’t be so moderate to you and I. It’s the loss of the ability to read newsprint and loss of the ability to drive. So they’re very, very significant impacts in terms of people’s lifestyle and activities of daily living. Richard Miles (06:24): It sounds like if you have diabetes or if one has diabetes, you should at least be aware of the problem. But if I understand it correctly, from what I’ve read, the key is you may get this recommendation from your primary care physician and then you get a referral to a specialist and it’s in that scene, right? That a lot of people just don’t get around to doing it, or they don’t want to do it or whatnot. And so a lot of people who are actually told are aware that this may be a problem, don’t do the critical follow-up and there for, they go largely undiagnosed. Do I have that right? Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (06:53): That’s correct. So the big challenge in the healthcare system is what I call people falling off the wagon. And you fall off the wagon from the primary care setting to the eye care environment where the eye exam needs to be done. Part of that is because it’s asymptomatic people, don’t perceive the importance of it. Part of it is it takes time. It costs money to do that. Part of it is that there’s some resistance on the eyecare environment in terms of getting appointments in a timely way. So there’s some inconvenience factor in that as well. And some of it is just that people aren’t even referred for it because again, it’s the asymptomatic disease. Richard Miles (07:27): So tell me then about the technology that you’ve developed to make this more efficient. I assume a primary care physician can do this in his or her office or pretty rapidly, so you no longer have to refer them to a specialist. Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (07:40): Yes. So again, drawing back from my experience as a primary care physician, diabetes has exploded since I last practiced as a primary care physician, but nonetheless, it was an important part of our treatment as well. And so one of the things that primary care physicians do very well is tests people find out when they hit a threshold of disease that needs a specialist and then send them onto a specialist. So our idea is if we could provide a test for a primary care physician to do that was reliable and accurate and convenient for them to do. And generally you have to consider also the economic aspects of it so that they can actually make some revenue from doing this. But that would be something that could help us address this issue because it would avoid patients having to move from the primary care setting to the eye care setting until they had what we call threshold disease or disease severe enough to need treatment. So the initial application that we did is we use the photographic technique to do this. There was a photographic technique developed by the national institutes of health that was used for all clinical trials that were done for the FDA, for the new treatments, for new therapies and for epidemiologic studies. And that technique was developed on film, very similar to the view master film reels of cartoons that we used to watch as kids, little view masters. And it used that ability to create stereo by creating these two different views, our initial solution for doing that in the first company, I started took photographs and converted that process from a film based process to a digital process, created a reading center. So the photographs could be done in the primary care setting sent to the reading center and a report sent back to the primary care physician with a red and green label on it, a lot more detail if they wanted to, but they knew that if it was ramped, they needed to send the patient onto the ophthalmologist for treatments. So what we’re using now instead of imaging technology is we’re using a different form of imaging electrophysiologic imaging, where we actually measure the electrical activity of the eye to determine whether or not there is disease present there. And so that’s where the EKG of the eye analogy comes from. So it’s simpler to do doesn’t require the challenges of imaging, particularly in patients with cataract, because it doesn’t require us to image through the eye to get the data and it can be done much quicker and the reimbursement model is better. So there are several different advantages to the techniques of doing that currently. So part of that then was developing the service in such a way so that it could be delivered in the primary care setting. The workflow would not interfere with how the primary care physician does his or her work, and then setting up a reading center to be able to interpret the data and then report it back and doing this all through a cloud based architecture for doing it, and then important to the primary care physicians that we be able to integrate this into their existing healthcare infrastructure, their EMR systems, and that isn’t such a trivial thing to do either. So once we got all of that established, we were actually rolling out our pilot site and then our pilot site was very successful. And once we were successful with that, we were really working on commercial deployment and that’s when COVID hit. So we have to shut down for awhile. And now we’re reopening at this point and time. Richard Miles (10:42): So that makes it sound like this idea should spread like wildfire, right? Because it sounds like a quite superior way of handling it. And probably it’s going to save if not lives, at least people’s vision. Let’s talk now about the companies that you founded, not just the origin story, sort of like the day, but also a little bit about the experience of doing so, because you’re not the first one that we’ve had on the show. They come from primarily an academic background. They hit upon a great idea through their research, or they are collaborators on somebody else’s original insight. And most of them find it a very challenging transition to go from the academic world in which you do research and you publish and you then move on to the next research and you don’t have to worry about who’s paying for the little lights over your head or air conditioning or any of that. When they go into this world, in which your idea doesn’t sell itself, it has to be developed it has to be tested. It has to be marketed, it has to be distributed. How did you get, first of all, the idea that you wanted to do this to be involved yourself, right? Cause there’s another path and simply you could license the technology. And a lot of people do that and you move on to whatever else you want to do in life, but you decided to take the hard road and actually get involved in not one but two companies. So tell us what was the impetus for doing that? And describe for us maybe your first, I dunno, six months, what was it like and what did you learn in those early days? Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (12:01): A little bit of this is the story of necessity is the mother of invention. So a lot of this was stimulated by a need. I had to do something to do that, to keep the idea alive. We developed the technology in our labs and we had actually continued to grow and develop the idea. We’re validating the idea through research grants and doing it through the traditional academic settings. We had a very large national trial that was going to be done, which is going to be the largest clinical trial ever done through the VA system. It was funded. We got the highest scores ever granted the program. And then for some unknown reason, it was rescinded. Again, I’m still not clear on why that happened. It was an almost $10 million grant, which at the time was the largest grant ever granted the University of Oklahoma health sciences center. So when that happened, the university said, look, either you have to abandon the idea or what you need to do is commercialize this idea and license it out. So we said, fine, we’ll do that. And we had obtained a patent for it at the time. So we thought we had some very tangible intellectual property license it out, but again, those things are a little bit challenging to do. And it was hard to get somebody that understood what we were doing to fund the company and then to run the company as well. There were two other co-inventors with me and they asked one of us to step out. And so I actually took the short straw and stepped out of the academic environment on a leave of absence from the university, just as I was about to hit tenure, my tenure promotion. It was a bit of a challenge and it was something that I hadn’t done before. And I remember the driving force behind my initial business plan was the Ernst & Young book, How to Write a Business Plan. And I literally followed that line by line chapter by chapter and develop a business plan for doing that. And I started marketing the business plan locally in Oklahoma, at the time it was hard to do that because a lot of people didn’t really understand what we were doing and the.com was booming at the time. So I packed everything up and I went to California and I started cold calling people on Sandhill Road. Richard Miles (13:59): Did you have any mentors at all that you turned to, or that offered you advice or was it just the Ernst & Young book and trial and error? You know, their whole bunch of small steps when you start a company that you don’t even think about filing for registration and finding an office and getting office furniture, all those sort of things that in other circumstances just appear out of nowhere as you do your work, did you have a roadmap or did you just day by day figure out, well, I guess I’ve got to do this and I guess I got to do that. Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (14:25): So it’s not that there weren’t mentors, but at that point in time, especially in our academic environment, we were fairly immature at this concept of commercializing technology. So I was a little bit of a pioneer in all of that. And I think I suffered a lot of the arrows that pioneers have in their backs as a result of that as well, but still I did have good mentorship from some business people in the community, some people inside the university and then some of foundations that supported research at the university and these people were early investors in the idea, if nothing else, they provided me with encouragement. But much of what I had to do is really learn on the job OJT for sure, on the job training for the largest part of it. And the most frustrating part about it was that we really had an investor community in the Southwest in Oklahoma and in the region that really didn’t understand the digital world and the digital technology. And that changed dramatically when I went to California, didn’t move there. But when I went there to visit with investors there. Richard Miles (15:23): Primary care physicians are your principle market. I take it right. I mean, they’re the ones who you really expect this, or at least their hospitals will buy it for them. Once you had the product up and going or something to offer, was it a struggle at all? Or was it difficult to sell them on this idea? I mean, having been one yourself, you knew the language, at least that wasn’t a hurdle, but were there cost considerations or ease of use consideration? Did they said like, yeah. Okay. It looks great, but you know, we’re just going to stick with what we do and that’s fine with us. What did you encounter that at all? Or was it an easy sell? Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (15:52): It was not an easy sell, as you can imagine. Medical systems are very resistant to change. First of all. So innovation is difficult to get implemented in medical systems. And there’s plenty of doors in terms of how long that takes somewhere between 7 to 14 years to really get that kind of adopted change. That was one of the points of resistance. So one of the main concerns that they had is the reimbursement issues and the reimbursement issues were complex because of the regulatory events around reimbursement. So Medicare and CMS had certain regulations that we had to follow. There were anti kickback rules that had to be followed as well because of self referral issues. And there were some telemedicine laws that were also pretty antiquated at that point of time, particularly anything that was done out of state. And when that happened, then we also have to follow other new rules in terms of licensure to be able to do this in other States. So there were significant complications to doing that. And then there was the natural resistance of the medical system to changing anything that they’re doing. There was some resistance from organized ophthalmology as well, which seemed to think that this was a threat because the ophthalmologist perspective of the problem is I see every diabetic that comes in and I examine them. What they don’t realize is that 60% of them aren’t making it in. Right? And so that was also one of the burdens that we had to overcome in order to do this. Richard Miles (17:13): I think you pointed out an under-appreciated problem or problems in the medical device or healthcare industry, and that this is classic third payer problem, right? Where even if the physicians themselves love the product or love the technology very often, they’re not the ones paying for it, nor do they have to deal with the regulatory hurdles necessarily in getting to use it. So did you find yourself having to spend a lot of time at Medicare offices in Washington or with regulators and insurance companies convincing them, this was a good thing for the field? Or how did you negotiate those hurdles? Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (17:48): So we actually had to develop a strategy who we call coverage and reimbursement. So first of all, we had to change the policies and make this acceptable in order to do that, we went to the accreditation body. First of all, MCQA that this would meet the quality regulations that were part of the heat it’s report card, which is the report card, measuring the quality of a health plan performance on all of this. So that’s the first thing we had to do. Then we had to go to individual payers in each marketplace in order to get them to provide coverage and the reimbursement for this. So part of that is that we did a technical assessment. There are these organizations that the Hayes group does technical assessments of new technologies that come out, get that done. They review the literature and then provide a judgment on whether or not this is a qualified test to be done. We then went into individual marketplaces and we, first of all, tried to get Medicare coverage for that region. And we did that by visiting with people at CMS central office in Baltimore first, and then with the local carriers and the local carriers each made their own decisions. There’s an interesting story about our initial visit to CMS. It was actually on 9/11 and it was at nine o’clock on 9/11. So you can imagine what that was like. As I was walking into the building, the building was streaming out and we were meeting with the director of CMS at the time Dr. Sean Tunis. And he asked us and said, do you want to stay for the meeting or not? And we said, well, if you’re willing to meet, we’ll still meet, but we understand if you don’t want to do that. And we met and then lights were all grounded by them. And so we rented the last car at the airport and drove 24 hours, back to Oklahoma city. So it’s a very memorable day when we got that, but it was also a very good meeting with Dr. Tunis. Richard Miles (19:29): Wow. You probably carried out one of the only previously scheduled meetings and actually finished it on 9/11. I was in Washington at the state department and it was quite chaotic and, um, yeah. Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (19:38): It was very, very tense and we had just driven from DC to Baltimore. So during that time, it was a very interesting time and very chaotic time. Richard Miles (19:47): Let’s go back a bit now about the company. So you have two companies, right? The current one is Trinoveon did I pronounce that correctly or how you did, but then the first one was called Inoveon, right? Correct. Okay. What’s the meaning behind those words? And what’s the difference between the two companies? Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (20:02): Well, Inoveon was the initial company that we did and really the name was an aggregation of the word innovation and eon, the age of innovation. And so that was really the concept behind it. And our mission really was the prevention of diabetic blindness, because that was our whole mission in doing that. And so we set that up and we developed the technology. We developed all of the protocols with the protocols, the workflow, the business model, the regulatory model, and then the competency reimbursement and coverage decisions with all the health plans. We went through some ups and downs. We had several investors cycles and all of that. And ultimately, we sold that company to a German company that was a health IT company based in Germany, focused in, on the ophthalmology space and the largest provider of EMR systems for ophthalmology in the world. That company was then acquired in the sharks and minnows game by Topcon, which is a large Japanese ophthalmic company. And they were very interested because they were developing the devices that we were using to do the imaging. And so this was a natural fit for what they wanted to do. However, they also had an internal team that was working on their own solution for this. And so when they acquired the company, they basically mothballed the company. But the residual of all of that was that we had one of the largest datasets for annotated data that had very high quality data and evaluations in it that were commensurate with the research quality data that the NIH trials had done. So we had about 3 million images in that dataset. So as a result that became valuable to some of the artificial intelligence groups that were out there, the Googles of the world, and some of the large pharmaceutical companies that were developing and some of them are device companies. And so that data set has become the core of some of the big data analytics that has gone into some of the automated image reading systems that are out there. The challenge with imaging system and reading is that there are some significant operational challenges doing that. Diabetics have a large incidence of cataract. So when you have a cataract, it’s difficult to get a good image. And when you don’t get a good image, you can’t get a good test result. There are other workflow issues and the cost of the equipment and the operation of the equipment is also complex. So we thought that might be a better way to do this. So after that company was sold and spun out and was doing all of those things, we continued to work on other new innovative technologies to solve the same problem. And that’s the origin of trying to Trinoveon. Richard Miles (22:26): So the difference in, let me see if I have this straight part of what the challenge was. You’ve got all this data, but the ability to interpret the data and is that where the AI comes in, it just makes it more efficient and more accurate. Is that correct? Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (22:37): That’s part of it. We still haven’t validated that it’s more accurate. We had human readers doing it. We had a very, very high quality system doing it. In fact, in daily routine operations, we actually matched or out performed research, trial quality data in our reading centers. So that was still difficult to do. The second part of it is that what’s happened in the retinal imaging. It’s become more of a screening technology rather than a diagnostic technology. And so what they’ve done is dummy down some of the questions that they have, and trying to just basically find people that have some disease and just get those people over. And so they can eliminate about 50% of the population that way. Richard Miles (23:15): I see. I hadn’t thought about that key difference between screening and diagnostic. One is just kind of bare minimum to do with a triage sort. Right. And then the other one is to really try to understand the disease Lloyd, tell me, how do you spend your days now in terms of the life cycle of the company? Are you still primarily on the research and development end or strategic management or.. Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (23:36): So the answer is yes, to all of those as you do at small companies, there is a difference with Trinoveon, so first of all, the technology is different instead of technology we’re using electrophysiologic imaging. Richard Miles (23:49): So it’s the electrical activity, not actual photos that makes this so much simpler or relatively less complicated than the systems that are in place now. Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (23:58): Yeah. So the technology of the device is actually quite complex, but what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to simplify all of the workflow for the primary care physician. So it can be done simply by a medical technician and can be done in less than five minutes. That was really the goal of what we were trying to do. So we’ve systematically operationalized all of those aspects with a device that used to be a desktop device that you put your head into now its a handheld device, much like an ice cream scooper has a little cup on it like that, that you put over the eye and the electrode that goes onto the lower eyelid and attaches to the device. And then a series of flashing lights that trigger the electrical activity in the eye and auto correct any errors in it, getting a valid test. And once a valid test is done, it notifies the user of that. And they put it into a little holster and that holster sends it over the internet to our reading center. And then we send the report back to them. Richard Miles (24:52): Is something that if you went to your doctor, it would only be done if you were diabetic or is this potentially something you would do as a normal battery things that physician’s assistant will do before you see your primary care physician or is that over kill? Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (25:05): So one of the critical elements of everything that we do is we try and make sure that there’s a very solid, scientific and clinical foundation behind it. So what we’ve done is we’ve only validated this approach for diabetic retinopathy at this point, electrophysiology of the eye is done for other conditions, such as glaucoma. Hypertension can also make some changes in the eye, but we haven’t validated that clinically, but those are some future applications that we had anticipated will happen. Richard Miles (25:31): Wow that sounds exciting. So usually what I’d like to do is give everyone on the show, a chance to dispense the many nuggets of wisdom that they’ve accumulated in their scientific and entrepreneurial journeys. And so I’m guessing that from time to time, you were asked for advice maybe from other startups or even other physicians who might be thinking of something similar, have you accumulated a short list of things that you wouldn’t do again, knowing what you know now or pitfalls you definitely stay away from if you were say, asked to serve as a consultant to somebody else’s business. Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (26:00): Yeah. I think one of the real lessons that I’ve learned is that perseverance is probably as important as brilliance or intelligence in this game. Is that really persevering with the idea believing in it? And then when the naysayers come, it’s much easier to say no to something than to say, Oh yes, that’s wonderful. That was work. So I think you have to have perseverance and you have to be a little bit immune to some of the critique and criticism that are out there. Even from environments like the academic environment. Some of the harshest critique we took was actually from our research and development group at the university that was supposed to be supporting us for doing this. We had to work through constitutional amendment to the state constitution, which prohibited faculty from participating in equity positions in company. And so we have to work through a lot of these different issues in order to be able to even achieve it. Now, fortunately, we paved the path for other people to do it, and it’s a leisure to doing it, but they’re facing other challenges as a result. But I think perseverance is one of the key things. And I think the other one is really having a solid foundation for what you’re doing. That’s based in scientific merit, particularly in medical applications that has the validation to it always gives you the high road. And so when you face those challenges, knowing that you have that behind you, I think it’s a very, very powerful tool. Ultimately, sometimes it’s harder to sell people on that because they don’t believe you can do it, but once you can prove that you can do it, then I think it becomes a real selling point. Richard Miles (27:29): Right, because there’s nothing like confidence in your product. If you know it works, then it’s that much easier to go out and tell other people, I guess in many cases it’s a chicken and egg thing, right. You know that a certain trial probably will confirm or make confirm, but you need money to do that trial. And so how do you split the difference? Like, you know, I’m very, very confident, but I’m not certain and get somebody to fund that. Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (27:49): The other lesson that you learn is that leadership in a company like this is lonely, it’s lonely at the top because ultimately somebody has to make the call. What’s your priority and spending, are you doing it on marketing? Are you doing it on research? Research people are pulling for more data, the marketing people just want more money, so they can go out and tell the message, right? And so you have to make all of these decisions, how much to invest in technology. And so when you’re making that final decision, I think you really have to think about what are the basic principles that you’re going for. What are the metrics that you’re using to assure that your decision is a good decision, then how do you implement that decision and not lose your organization. Richard Miles (28:25): The other comment I was going to make Lloyd is when you said that you didn’t get the support, maybe you’re expecting from the academic community. I was gonna say, I’m shocked, shocked to hear that that would take place pettiness in academia. And it reminds me of that famous. I think it’s a Henry Kitchener quote in which he said the fights in academia are so vicious because the stakes are so small. Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (28:43): Well, that’s right in academics. And in a lot of ways is a very individual sport too, right? It’s a lot about how do I develop my own career and how do I prosper in that career? And so each individual achievement has to be allocated to somebody. And so that is one of the challenges. The second one is that entrepreneurship wasn’t typically viewed as part of the academic journey. And now I think a lot of those things have changed in some of the academic settings and entrepreneurship actually does count for some of that. So I think those are good changes. Richard Miles (29:13): Yes. And you’ve made a very impressive and rare transition, most academics. In fact, most academic adventures at some point say, you know, this is just not worth it. And I’m going to either get bought or let this go to somebody else. Although I guess you had the best of both worlds you got bought and you kept going, so that’s even better, but I commend you for sticking with it Because it is a tough road, lots of very bright, energetic, committed people who don’t ultimately succeed through a combination of circumstances. So congratulate you on doing it. Not once, but twice. Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (29:40): I tell my children find something you do in life that makes it easy to get up in the morning. And usually that means that you find something significant. And when you experience a blind person and particularly somebody that’s blinded from something that was avoidable preventable or treatable, then you really realize the pain and suffering that you can prevent by doing something significant is really relevant to the world. And it’s meaningful. And I think that’s the main thing that drives me. I work in other blindness prevention programs internationally as well, cataract blindness that’s for example, and all of these activities I think are centered on this focus that I’ve tried to put into my career, which is how do we leverage information technology to give us better clinical tool. We have a lot of administrative tools in medicine that really encumber us more than they help us. So I’m really focused much more on the clinical side. It’s how do we get good tool to help us do this? And that was part of the work in AI that I’m very interested in continuing to foster as well. Richard Miles (30:35): Lloyd, thank you very much. These have been very inspiring, encouraging words. My takeaway from this is I need to start booking more Canadians clearly. Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (30:43): That’s probably a good thing to do. Richard Miles (30:46): Right, thanks very much for being on Radio Cade and hope to have you back at some point. Dr. Lloyd Hildebrand (30:49): Absolutely. Thank you very much for the opportunity. It was a pleasure. Outro (30:53): Radio Cade is produced by the Cade Museum for Creativity and Invention located in Gainesville, Florida. Richard Miles is the podcast host and Ellie Thom coordinates inventor interviews, podcasts are recorded at Heartwood Soundstage and edited and mixed by Bob McPeak. The Radio Cade theme song was produced and performed by Tracy Collins and features violinists, Jacob Lawson.

Link to Need That's Macbook Giveaway: https://bit.ly/needthatgiveaway High school ruined reading for me. But I've now realized the power of them. Individuals fit decades of experience into a 200-page book that costs the same amount of a few coffees at Starbucks. In this episode you will here from these individuals: Abishek Raja: Student at Cornell. Book recommendations: Blitzscaling by Reid Hoffman, Startup of You Jesse Kay: Founder of Vyber Media and the Makin Lemonade Fund. Book recommendations, Zero to One by Peter Thiel, Outsiders by William Thorndike, and Secrets of Sandhill Road by Scott Kupor Justin Lafazan: Co-Founder and Co-CEO of Next Gen HQ. Book recommendations, High Output Management by Andy Grove, Atomic Habits by James Clear,

Telecom software maker Metaswitch Networks was bootstrapped for the first 25 years of its profitable existence before the team decided to take outside investors including Sandhill Road standout Sequoia Capital. A few years after Sequoia invested in the London-based company, Chris Mairs, who was Metaswitch’s chief scientist, asked a Sequoia partner what the key requirements were for investing in a company. As Mairs recalls the conversation, the Sequoia partner highlighted three things. 1. The people. 2. The business needed to be quite young so there was plenty of opportunity for growth. 3. The Sequoia team needed to be able to bicycle from Sandhill Road to the company’s head offices. Metaswitch had only one of those right. The only one that mattered.

Hoje falamos com André Levi, CFO e partner do fundo de venture capital DCM Ventures, localizado na lendária Sandhill Road em Menlo Park - no coração do Vale do Silício.André nos contou sobre a sua fascinante história de determinação e foco até se tornar CFO da DCM. Ele também falou sobre as principais startups do portfólio e sobre sua lógica de investimento, dada a sua atuação global. André compartilhou a sua percepção sobre o atual momento positivo do ecossistema empreendedor brasileiro e os impactos disso na atuação de um fundo.Para você que se interessa em inovação, empreendedorismo, venture capital e finanças, essa discussão será um prato cheio.

In early 2017, frustrated by her own challenges in raising money on Sandhill Road, Astrid Scholz partnered with Jennifer Brandel and Mara Zepeda to author "Zebras Fix What Unicorns Break" -- an article that challenged the VC-dominated paradigm of startup capital, and championed the cultivation of zebras over unicorns. In this episode, Astrid shares her perspectives on the need for alternative models by which startups can raise capital, and explains what she means by a zebra.

In this ep: >> The relationship between VCs and the Startup >> The entrepreneurial process >> "We are wrong more often than we're right" >> Nailing the pitch process >> Why 'egomaniacal leaders' can be a good thing >> Vitamins vs aspirin: nice to have vs must have solutions  >> The pace of change and future of jobs due to automation >> Scott's book recommendations:        > Masters of the Senate: The Years of Lyndon B. Johnson        > Devil Take the Hindmost        > Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialised World

Today on Product Hunt Radio, I make the trek from San Francisco down to Sandhill Road to talk to Andrew Chen and Ada Chen at Andreessen Horowitz. Their matching last name is not a coincidence — yes, they are siblings. Andrew Chen is a relatively recent addition to Andreessen Horowitz team, where he's a General Partner focused on consumer and SaaS. Prior to joining the illustrious firm, he led growth teams at Uber. He's also a prolific writer with more than 650 essays over the past decade covering startups, growth, and more. Fun fact: he coined the term “mullet business” which we touch on during the podcast. (Where's a mullet emoji when you need it!?) Ada Chen has a unique background, operating at companies with massive scale, including Mochi Media, LinkedIn, and SurveyMonkey, as well as startups at the earliest stage. Today she advises several startups and is the COO of Notejoy, a collaborative notes app for teams, which she co-founded with her husband. In this episode we talk about: The uniqueness of the Silicon Valley tech ecosystem, how network effects conspire to create a “rich get richer” situation for cities, and why new communication tools enabling distributed teams to work together across continents could mean that there will be no “next Silicon Valley.” Ada shares her insights on the contrasting skill sets needed when working at a big company versus a small startup, after having herself gone from a small startup to a huge organization like LinkedIn back to a two-person startup with her husband. How to port the concept of OKRs — objectives and key results, a personnel management framework originated by legendary Intel CEO Andy Grove — to your personal life from your business (and why you would want to). We talk about you can use them to help manage your exercise, social life and relationship with your SO. Of course, we also chat about some of their favorite products, including an app that lets you pop in to a luxury hotel for a few hours to shower or have a nap, a super cool way to greet visitors to your office, and a new app for emailing yourself. We’ll be back next week so be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Breaker, Overcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Also, big thanks to our sponsors, Airtable, GE Ventures, Intercom and Stripe for their support.

Interview - Jay Kinder In today’s episode we have Jay Kinder, who has been in real estate for 20 years and started his own independent brokerage company prior to transitioning to eXp Realty. We hear about Jay’s previous experience, why he chose eXp Realty, how eXp differs from other companies and how you can learn more about opportunities with eXp. Learn More about eXp Realty - Click here to watch a quick 7 Minute Intro Video. Remember our disclaimer: The materials and content discussed within this podcast are the opinions of Kevin Cottrell and/or the guests interviewed.  This information is intended as general information only for listeners of the podcast. Listeners should conduct their own due diligence and research before making any business decisions. This podcast is produced completely independently of eXp Realty and is not endorsed, funded or otherwise supported by eXp Realty directly or indirectly.   In this episode Recruiting and retention challenges as an independent brokerage or large mega agent team Why Facebook comments are not the best way to reach people How many agents the number one franchise system in the world is netting vs. how many agents eXp Realty is netting Agent attraction Importance of speed to market Company culture Roadmap for vetting Want to Learn More about eXp Realty? If you are interested in learning more about eXp, reach out to the person who introduced you to eXp or one of the contacts below to inquire or ask questions. If you are seeking further information, eXp has Lunch and Learn opportunities, weekly live webinars and other resources such as pre-recorded videos that can be sent to you. YouTube videos are also available online. Contact Jay Kinder, email at Jay@Jaykinder.com Contact Gene Frederick, text 703-338-1515 Noteworthy “It just seems more real so we just thought all in all it is a better platform. It just made sense to us to be at eXp.” “I think people think, you know, it's all about how much you're putting into it. It's incredible how quickly it grows underneath you with people that you're not talking to every single day.” “Essentially, if you look at a cloud-based brokerage like eXp Realty your single cap gives you access nationwide because it's a single brokerage, not each office is independently owned and operated like in a franchise system.”   PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION KEVIN: Welcome to the show. Jay how are you. JAY: I'm doing great. Kevin how are you doing buddy. KEVIN: Fantastic looking for this conversation. I think a lot of people are when they listen to this. Before we get into sort of the meat of the topic on the eXp for agents that may not know your background why don't you give a quick bio and background before we jump into the details. JAY: Yes sure. I've been doing this 20 years now so I got into a real estate a pretty young age. My dad owned a, bought actually in 1997 a Coldwell banker franchise from being an independent. And then I got into a real estate late that year. And so about 20 years now that I've been selling real estate I was very fortunate to invest in myself go to every conference anybody who sold anything for real estate agents. They have my credit card. That's for sure. I was fortunate to be pretty successful early on. My first you know four five years were pretty good. I ended up I think number two in the world for Coldwell banker for several years. Selling I think at the peak of my career five hundred and something homes kind of went on to start a coaching and consulting company with my business partner Mike Reese who is also a real estate agent. I kind of got him into real estate and we just found that we really enjoyed helping real estate agents grow their business. That was something we were very passionate about. We started our own company together as well probably in 2014. I think officially we restarted up and brand new brokerage together. We both had our company separate but we put one together and started growing that in about 2015 16 17 and then obviously last year we joined the eXp. KEVIN: So for listeners I want to give some context to this Jay and I think first met we were trying to figure it out before we started recording somewhere around 2004. We were both in Austin, Texas. I was living in Austin at the time. Jay was down from Lawton, Oklahoma and Chad Goldwasser had put together, I can't remember what Keller Williams event it was but there was an event and there were about 15 or 20 of us at dinner and Jay happened to be sitting across from here next to me because I remember you made this comment and I think it's very very apropos for the conversation today which is you've been successful like you just talked about Coldwell banker. You made the comment. You said I'm happy to come learn. I get invited every time there's an event. It may have a mega camp or something like that by Gary Keller. You never changed and I want for listeners to say that again. I mean from 2004 when Jay and I first met he had already been courted by Keller Williams and Gary Keller personally for years and now it's 2017 all of a sudden after what you just described and the coaching and consulting business you and Michael launched a brokerage business. You made a hard turn and double down so to speak on the eXp realty. Let's talk about why. What was the genesis for that decision. JAY: The genesis for that decision was you know as an independent you know of course if you would asked me if I was interested in joining any brokerage I would have been adamantly opposed to it. I consider myself lucky that I was even open minded enough to consider it as an option because I wasn't certainly looking to join any other brokerage once we went independent and 2011 and then we started our own brokerage that was independent. There were just you know that was a direction that we were going and we had a brand that we were building and we wanted to expand that brand across the country and we weren't looking to join a brokerage that wasn't a problem that we were trying to solve what problem we were trying to solve. And I think what really made us have to really consider eXp was the recruiting and retention challenge that you have as an independent brokerage or as a large mega agent team however you want to look at us was something that we just consistently fought you know year in and year out. And when we look at the eXp model it really was just a better platform for us to kind of expand our real estate business across the country as we were intending to do. It just made a lot more sense to do it at the eXp. There was a better value proposition that we could align to what we were already offering in terms of value. And there was just a better business model that was already in place with publicly traded company, having shares and ownership in equity which we wanted to incorporate into our model that we really didn't have a good way to do that. And I think most agents don't really buy in for the long term of an independent because there's never really you know what's the true value of that independent. You know if you were to even implement some type of equity you know opportunity or whatever there's limited value to that because it's not real. And I think eXp became very obvious which the stock trades for you can go look that up and sell it you know. Obviously after you've invested you can go out and sell that stock. So it just seems more real so we just thought all in all better platform it just made sense to us to be at eXp. KEVIN: You know it's interesting. I ran across the same comment from an independent broker in the Portland area that converted his 30 plus agents in the eXp and I had originally approached him to look for potential acquisitions and or people that might be interested in eXp. Not initially even on his behalf. In other words he made the comment to me send me the information. Let me understand what you guys are all about and what was interesting I sent to him on a Friday. Even before Monday arrived I had some text and call saying hey I'm going to get another call with you. And I got on the call and his comment was the same thing you said which is I don't know how I remain viable as an independent when there is this alternative value proposition. I think that is the big wave that's coming. I know you're seeing it not only with mega mega agents and teams but the independent brokers people that have built solid businesses and we already have numerous examples. I've got a number of them that I've already recorded and will be recording of independents coming into the eXp and everybody says the same thing. And something like to this effect not only retention but the guy in Portland said when I started doing my due diligence I started calling people and when I got to some big franchise recruits that I thought I could get into my firm within the next 12 to 18 months. These are the people that you typically have to court for a while. Every one of them either was already in play for eXp or told them if I move anywhere I'm moving to eXp and that's happening every market across the country. It's an interesting prospect. So Jay if you look at this from the standpoint of equity and you know most agents and I want to kind of let you expand on that. Most agents have either been sold a bill of goods of especially recently that you want to be part of a private company not a public company. I will make the comment I did nine startups out of Silicon Valley including two that went public. That is the most asinine comment by that leader that I've ever heard. I mean unless you are passing out equity like a law firm does two partners where they divvy up the pool of income and profit at the end of the year you're being sold a bill of goods. There's no easier way to say it. If you're drinking the coolaid so strong that you're waving the flag now. Yeah yeah. Private private private. I am so sorry. Go run around Sandhill Road and talk to the venture capitalists and the entrepreneurs that tried to do it privately. Competing with companies and that's not to mention in the real estate space all of the venture funded entities. If you're the lone private entity who is run by the largest shareholder that's trying to tell you that private is good, just go do some due diligence. Go talk to somebody that works for a law firm that's highly profitable that is private and ask them how they participate in that profit and then go back and see if you have an opportunity do that because the last time I checked there is no profit other than profit share being handed out in that large franchise system. I come from it. It's a great company. But Jay, don't you think that once agents do their due diligence and some of them are doing it in a week some are taking 6 months but when they look at this and they start thinking about building wealth and they start thinking about retirement, other streams of income there really isn't a second choice in this. Is there? JAY: There's not a second choice and it's fascinating to me. If you go back and live 30 years ago it was "Keller who" you know when they were first taken off as an example the influences really kind of drive the growth of the company. And I got two messages today literally since right before and probably in the last hour or two that are agents that you know they basically watch the webinar, a they are interested in. One guy said he's 95 % there and the other guy actually said something very similar to that in his comments. And I think when people you know what's really you know we're just at the you know the tipping point you know getting close to 10,000 agents and you know I've always heard that is the tipping point but I've never felt anything like a tipping point like this. I mean it is incredibly interesting how many influences, mega agents, independents see the value proposition they see that's real and I think the other agents you know that are leaders maybe in their marketplaces but they're doing a good business and they're happy where they're at. You know that's going to be the next big wave in the next 12 to 18 months of agents that just this is obviously there's a lot of smart people that moved over here. I get it. I'm moving over here. I mean I can only expect that that would be the case. KEVIN: Gene Frederick and I have coined the term super influencers. We're going through a phase now and you certainly qualify in this category Jay where you get people that have both on their network and also on their social media following Super influence. They're disrupters, when they move especially in the context of what I said about you were you being courted for more than 10, 15 years and then you made a move and those people in the industry that didn't realize that was even a possibility. It was highly disruptive in the market. I know that you've had some huge success. You've had a bunch of people come over afterwards and I think that last time I saw your numbers and I'll just ask you for an update it's been about 100 days hasn't it? When we recorded this and how many people are in your revenue share group? JAY: We partnered obviously me and Michael and Stacey who brought me on board and I think you know all together we are now at just under 300 in total in our revenue share group. And I believe like my personal line it's something like 25 or something like that 27 I think actually now. So yeah. I mean it grew super fast. I think people think you know it's all about how much you're putting into it. It's incredible how quickly it grows underneath you without you know.. with people that you're not talking to every single day. I've a lot of conversations about eXp every single day. I'm happy to have the most fun I've ever had in my life. Having those conversations all day. The bottom line is people tell people who to tell people who tell people and your revenue share grows without much effort beneath you is what I experienced thus far. KEVIN: It's the viral nature of real estate. Now people have people in the real estate business that they are personal friends with or they are in their network. It could even be in their city or their part of their referral network much like what happened to you when a brokerage change occurs. They're like well why did you go to eXp or what's up with eXp. And like you were discussing you'll have them watch a quick intro to eXp or a webinar. It's a little crazy silly. How much traction there is. Because as a former team leader for Keller Williams I can tell you I haven't tried to recruit Jake Kinder but trying to recruit a Kapper or a mega agent was a six months to a six year arduous process. In other words it was a huge win. If somebody like Gene Frederick or I got a mega mega agent and you just look at the last seven days at eXp you know and there's like 500 million dollars worth of production and teams coming in in a week. And for context and the reason I bring that up is it's easy for people to get confused especially because there's a lot of noise and information in the market that it's not very very viral. I know of a franchise office I was told about on the East Coast where not only the team left but all 1 through 5 left in one week. And this is happening for context for listeners to this without Nine hundred team leaders, without managing brokers going out and doing recruiting on a basis. Now you've got people like Gene Frederick, Jay, myself and a whole bunch of other people including agents they're just talking to as Jay described agents in their network. You know maybe somebody did a cobroker transaction with and then they decide to join. But it's very viral at this point isn't that sort of the feeling that you were describing earlier as never felt like it. JAY: That's exactly what it is. It's a completely viral. I found it interesting. There's kind of a unique balance of people who still have never heard of eXp which is a huge opportunity because most people have never been even exposed to what it is and then it seems like there's another subset of the market that were exposed to it didn't really probably weren't properly exposed to it or maybe they weren't exposed to it in a way that they actually listen closely to what it was or looks closely at what it is. There's the people that had been watching closely bought this stock and are just waiting here just waiting for the right person to come on board it so that they know that it's a good decision. Maybe they're fearful or maybe it's just timing. You know those are the kind of the three different tiers that I tend to run into. It's just incredible opportunity. I think still with age I still really don't know anything about eXp or haven't even really heard much about it in some markets. KEVIN: And I would echo that I just had a conversation with about a 10 or 12 million dollar producer in San Diego and I happened to run across her and asked her if she had ever heard of the eXp and we were on a phone call much like the calls that you do Jay. She said it's the wildest thing I see it all over social media. I see it. You know when somebody post something about changing brokers in a Facebook group about real estate and there's 300 comments she said but I've never seen anybody talk to me about what it really means. And that's the opportunity. And you know I want to put a footnote in here and I know you'll probably echo the comment which is commenting for those of you that are already with a eXp and we'll have a lot of people listening to these interviews just for tips and thoughts and be able to frankly share it with other agents that are not here yet. The time to jump in and a 300 comment thread on Facebook is not the right way to get somebody's attention. It's about the one on one conversations. It's about building a relationship with somebody. It's about being purposeful about value and it's not a perfect fit at the eXp realty for everybody I'm sure you've had plenty of conversations like I have. Were the parties mutually agree that OK well it's either not fit now or just you know what. Thank you very much. Or not. I can tell you that I don't jump in those comment streams but I can tell you that invariably when I have a conversation with somebody about eXp that is active in one of those groups, they receive them fairly negatively. In other words I would encourage people if you're listening to this and you're with the eXp to stop the cheerleading in the comments and you know touting revenue share in these 300 comment threads and these Facebook groups. Get into a one on one relationship with people including people who are active in those groups and have a phone conversation. Let them watch the webinar and let them learn the true facts because all it comes across as is overly aggressive. People didn't like this when it happened at Keller Williams. Like I said before, I was a team leader for a long time I ran several market centers Gene Frederic was a team leader, the number one team leader in the country and we never did that. In other words there's plenty of agents that are all excited and you just talked about having somebody just this weekend. Reach out to you. I had two people this weekend as well. And it wasn't because I posted a comment on Facebook right. I don't never see you do it either Jay. JAY: All we've done actually.. we haven't done anything and of course we're you know by the nature of our business as we market the real estate agents all across the country and have been doing that since 2006 so I haven't sent an email talking about eXp or our move. I haven't done anything on Facebook other than doing Facebook Live to announce it and then using you know Facebook Live to interview other people have made the move as well. That's pretty much all we've done so far. And you know that's a good way to get the message out if somebody wants to tune in it can and will have to. But the thing you know that way you're not you know in their face you know trying to force it. I think you want to you know again it's age and attraction agents that are interested in it keep hearing about it are going to be more likely to snoop around a little bit more maybe ask a question are private messages or something like that. But you know just go out there and jumping into a forum using making comments you know about eXp definitely not the right approach in my opinion. KEVIN: I would agree. Now Jay let me ask you a couple of questions. Obviously one of the big things that I see a lot of people asking about is there's a lot of focus on multi market operations and expansion. Right? You know some franchise systems you know like to think that they pioneered this but if you look at the eXp value proposition because you do deal with in your business and I know you're relationships with a lot of the teams that either are already multi market or that's part of their business plan. How much of a game changer do you think that the two things ,the one the single rainmaker cap nationwide for eXp is and then to the fact that they have the team concept in terms of the capping including the mega mega team program how big a game changer in the industry do you think that is going to be? JAY: It's super interesting. For us, it's a huge deal I mean because we were independent so we didn't have you know I guess you know if you look at other systems or other franchises that have something similar. I mean there's way more cost associated with trying to you know expand into new markets with that business model then there is at eXp. There is clearly you know a huge advantage as far as making that an affordable opportunity. And it's interesting because I have got on a few conversations that probably my third or fourth weekend where I had an agent in Virginia that wanted to join my team. She had been on some type of an expansion team somebody at Keller Williams. I'm not sure who it was you know she was looking for some lead generation and things of that nature but she wanted to join on a 50/50 split. I had not been thinking about it that way because most of my conversations have been with influencers and things of that nature so I was just looking at you know I've been sharing over and over and over conversation after conversation you know just the business model and I wasn't presenting it from a here come join my team perspective and it kind of hit me is like my goodness. I mean there could literally be you know you could have a thousand agents on your team. I think you know 15 years of my career. Everybody was focused on how do you get to a thousand transactions and I think now that the opportunity for someone to have a thousand agents on their team that wants to control lead gen and bring agents in under a little bit stronger value proposition than just whatever the eXp is offering in order to help them be successful. You know that's a real possibility. It would be something that you know that I've never seen done before that's for sure. KEVIN: And I think that that is something that inherently, I have some people I'm interviewing about this but is inherently in some of the franchise systems the conflict right. Essentially if you look at a cloud based brokerage like eXp realty your single cap gives you access nationwide because it's a single brokerage not each office is independently owned and operated and franchise system. So the conflict that I see coming down the pike is you can have a national conference like happened recently and announce that you're going to do a virtual cloud based operation. Right? They didn't give a lot of details but now imagine you own the office in Oklahoma City and you're the franchisee and you used to get a cap when the expansion team opens up in your market right. You're going to get some amount of company dollar. Now income is virtual and you're not getting that anymore. I think it's going to be I guess I'll give it a nice pleasant turn but it's going to be very messy for the franchisees in the franchise or to sort through all of that. Silicon Valley approach to this, speed to market is the winner. You know and I think a lot of people are starting to wake up. Most people including a lot of people listening to this don't realize what a big ramp up that eXp is going through. Frankly Jay a big part of it is the momentum that you brought in because if they were running at 300 agents a month in September-October and they hit 988 in January that's a big part of what Gene and I have given the moniker super influence effect. And there's going to be a lot more of that. And for context the number one franchise system in the world netted 908 agents in January. You probably didn't never hear that figure before but I've seen it so with 900 offices they netted 900 agents. eXp did 988 without team leaders with a single nationwide footprint. And so what's ending up happening is what used to occur as they expanded in a franchise system. You know Gene and I did this. You get a bunch of agents excited. They want to join and then they have to wait till the franchise is awarded. They have to wait until the bricks and mortar acquired they have to wait until the office gets a core group and mix application including with the person who gets approved as the franchisee to run it. That takes 12 to 18 months. So flash forward Jake Kinder comes on board in October his phone rings off the hook for the first 30 plus days. Somebody is in San Diego. You know they have 15 agents. Hypothetically they get excited to watch the web an hour they want to join that maybe talk to some of the senior people who are accessible at eXp especially for people that have a substantive business that's a big deal like a list for you. And I know you did talk to Glenn and others before you came over. They come over and it takes 10 days, not 18 months. So for listeners that have been told especially if you work for a franchise system there's no way they can sustain this growth at eXp realty. Here's your wakeup call. It takes as little as a week to 10 days to bring over mega teams. In a franchise system especially if it's an expansion effort and there's a new market center involved is you're talking 12 to 18 months. That's their Achilles heel both for the virtual market center aspect as well as the other aspect we talked about earlier which is the direct conflict. For those out there that are wondering and scratching their head of how did this brokerage go from you know 800 or so agents to 66 hundred at the end of last year to break through 8000. Now as Jay mentioned at the top of this interview close to 10000 that's the clock speed that it's running out. There's no reason I'll put a stake in the ground. I don't what your prediction is but I think that will be at every bit of 22 to 25000 agents at the end of the year. What's your number. JAY: That was the number that I had been thinking to January. And I want to say I had a conversation with Glenn in December. The thought was maybe 13-14000 at the end of 2018 and then at the end of January I think that number is going up considerably closer 20000. I believe there would be more than 23000. The only question that I have is the onboarding process and it's super scalable what they're doing now. So it would stand to reason that they could continue to scale out that apartment and manage the you know the pace at which we're growing. There are some estate broker things that probably come into play there that need to be dialed in there to get more than 23000 but I would definitely bet my left arm on 20000 unless there's some type of internal reason for us to not grow that fast. I can't imagine not hitting 20000 at the end of this year. I just don't see any way especially with the influencers that I know that are on the new on the transition right now and the ones that have already come on board. It's just got too much momentum to not do that. KEVIN: Absolutely and my take on it to Jay is the fact that we've hit critical mass. In other words some in the marketplace and this is some of the noise and misinformation is that they can't keep scaling the eXp realty. There's no way they can do this. And there is a demand portion of that which we've been talking about right the super influencers, the influencers the momentum even down on the agent level worry they'll join and then two or three people will join and then they know two or three people and that's that frankly there's more agents joining from that than just the super influencers right. You look at since you've got here you know if you add 2500 agents and you talk about having 300 in your revenue sharing group. It's still growing much faster than even what you're doing. So the demand side is there. If you look at and I've worked for nine startups in Silicon Valley, the stuff that the marketplace doesn't understand is the systems will all be scalable. They're always going to be periods of time when demand outstrips the capacity of the entity. The difference is if I've got to open up bricks and mortar and hire people and stick them in offices and do things physically there's a meter on it as to how fast I can grow. So if you're just talking about building systems that are scalable that are cloud based, the cloud based model beats the bricks and mortar model every time. So Jay if you look at where you are getting most of the interest from obviously it's across the board right independence you get people from the big franchise systems when you look at an agent that's maybe listening to this. You remember they were involved with your association or something else like that. What's the advice you can give them as far as you know due diligence and vetting and the whole purpose of this podcast is to get it out in your words but also to give them a roadmap for vetting. What would you advise them to do? Obviously they listen to this potentially. Now they need to you know dig in and make their own decision on the eXp Realty. JAY: Do your due diligence. I would say you know talk to agents. One thing I would say not to do is you know don't look at just the agents in your marketplace that are have currently joined eXp and make a decision based on that. There's still a lot of marketplaces where the agents that came on board were super early adopters and maybe they were not doing a lot of transactions or whatever the case may be. I would say get in contact with you know someone that's at a high caliber and talk to them definitely keep listening these podcast. Definitely watch some youtube videos and things of that nature but talk to some agents that are here eXp now and that are doing production and ask them what you know. It's everything it's cracked up to be. I think that's one of the things that you can do that that the easiest and you know see what the truth is out there would be what my advice would be. KEVIN: Absolutely. That's good advice. Another thing I would say to echo what Jay said... We still have markets at the eXp where there are a look like Texas was three years ago when Gene Frederick first approached me about Texas. I want to say they had less than 25 agents in the entire state of Texas. eXp at this point has 1800 agents, they're adding way over 100 per month. The complexion of it and the difference in the brokerage operation is like night and day. Not only is the brokerage infrastructure in terms of the state broker and all the State Administrative brokerage team and I think it's close to 10 people at this point. Completely different. And that's the scalability as well of the business. That's the only thing that I'm glad you brought it up a run across. More people say well I can't look at the roster in my market and there's only a handful of people and I'm not sure you guys are going to do what you do in my market that you've done in other markets. Well it's just a matter of time in my opinion and that's what you just said Jay which is raise your hand and the other thing I would say as far as vetting is that you should, whoever brought eXp Realty has an opportunity to you. Ask them to get you in touch with some other people from a reference standpoint. The culture of the business is such that even if somebody is a fairly large producer or mega agent or they're in a different market if somebody pings them and says hey I've got this prospect, they're really interested in the eXp. They're a little concerned about their market versus what we've done in other parts of the country. We will absolutely get you connected with somebody. It doesn't matter if they are in our rev share group I would do it for Jay. Jay would do it for me. Anybody would do it. We can get you in touch especially if you're a larger independent brokerage and you know you're thinking this is strategic for me. I've got 30 to 50 agents, I've got 100 agents. We had one in the southeastern United States that approached us with 350 agents and five offices. If you're out there and this is strategic, you're listening to these podcasts episodes and you need help. There's plenty of help it's the culture of the business that's in our DNA. And I see you doing it all day long Jay. I mean you raise your hand and say look let me help you Gene and I do the same thing. We don't care and Gene frankly is the evangelist and the ambassador for eXp, he's out there running regional trainings and events all over the country and every once in awhile he'll say to me he goes I think they're in my downline. I think they're in my revenue share group but he doesn't really care. Most of us don't care. We don't care anymore. I know you don't care either. JAY: The culture is just incredible and you think OK well it's not you know there's no brick and mortar attack and you really have culture. This is probably the most culture rich organization I've ever been apart of there really is... It's just engineered into the DNA. When you come on board the eXp to help one another and you know there's not this oh well you're not my downline that's not at all the feel which is something I didn't necessarily expect but I've been really pleased to see that it really is truly you know a lot of givers in this company that are wanting to help one another grow and are willing to help anybody in the organization no matter where they're at. And that starts at the very top with leadership. Now all the way down to you know any agent in the company that's very special to be you know to be able to kind of see that and experience it. It's very rare I would say. KEVIN: Great. Well Jay this is another example of you giving in terms of coming on the podcast I appreciate it. Before we let you go any other final thoughts and then I'm going to have you give out your contact information in case I wants to reach out to you. JAY: No I don't have any final thoughts. I mean if you've been thinking about it you know take action. I think this is you know one of the better opportunities that I've seen since I've been in real estate and certainly think that you're going to be better off here than not being here. KEVIN: Fantastic. Jay if somebody wants to reach you and connect with you how would they find you either on social media or on the web. JAY: You could probably just Google me that's probably an easy way to find me but if you want to e-mail me you can shoot me an email it's my name. Jay@Jaykinder.com. KEVIN: Fantastic thanks for coming on the show. JAY: You got it thank you.

Davis Smith, the founder of Cotopaxi.com talks about raising millions from VC’s to start his businesses, while maintaining a pledge for good to the world 0:29 – Introduction 1:12 – His first startup Pooltables.com 4:13 – Growing up in Latin America and world traveling 5:30 – Talking about taking risks and stepping into the business full-time 7:28 – His first business exit 9:00 – After selling his company he went to Wharton School of Business 12:55 – Raising venture money on Sandhill Road and starting baby.com.br 15:20 – Obstacles and surprises he faced with baby.com.br 20:19 – Meeting Edgar, the pivotal life changing moment while living in Peru 26:22 – Non profit vs profits for good 28:48 – Creating the Cotopaxi business model at 2am “The desire to create is one of the deepest yearnings of the human soul” Dieter Uchtdorf 30:42 – How to find and apply your inner creations and business models “It takes the same amount of time to build a hundred million dollar business as it does to build a one million dollar business” 32:16 – Closing the feedback loop 38:37 – Bootstrapping vs venture backed business 41:24 – The Questival, catapulting the Cotopaxi brand and awareness 44:06 – They are a benefit corporation set to give back for the life of the business 48:06 – His vision of the company in the future 50:40 – Davis’s 48 hour challenge Check out their cause and gear at www.cotopaxi.com

“Customer Development” was born four years earlier and 200 miles away on Sandhill Road. I was between my 7th and 8th and final startup; licking my wounds from Rocket Science, the company I had cratered as my first and last attempt as a startup CEO. I was consulting for the two venture capital firms who between them put $12 million into my last failed startup.